Oh well , American Science & Surplus will NOT ship outside the US . You'd think Canada was on the dark side of the Moon :mad: I'll try another way of getting some of these .

Scott..........

You'd think Canada was on the dark side of the Moon :mad:

Scott..........


You mean it's not? :D

I'll save the filter info, so we have it for the next update of the "Instructions".

tekdredger -- Just because Northern WI is ;)?

Just because a filter "looks" blue doesn't mean it will perform as intended .Agreed. Nothing like empirical data though :). I got identical results with the filter mentioned above as the THX. Same result with the other 2 as well, just a little more difficult to judge. It's not just color but how much luminance it cuts. All the Lee filters provide their spectral graphs and transmission characteristics. My sample set arrived in a few days.

Daryl L -- You have an "Oops" in your post #747 (#106 is Primary Red - you said Green) :D.

I downloaded Lee's filter lists by both Numerical and Chromatic order. Their #079 filter is called "Just Blue" (instead of Primary Blue). It's interesting that the #071 appears to be a lot darker blue than their #079 Just Blue or their #120 Deep Blue (on my laptop monitor - not calibrated). Both the #106 and #139 filters, however, seem to be the same level as their #079. Using my laptop screen and their PDF file is not a fair comparison, since it's the transmission properties that are important and not a picture printed with PC graphics on an uncalibrated PC screen.

NOTE: I'm also curious as to how close the filters should be to the ideal primary color points on the CIE charts.

BTW, I must be dense or something :eek:. I looked on the Lee Filter USA site, and I can't find how to order their sample filter pack. Scott, can you give me a hint? I suppose I could just call them and ask. TIA.

P.S. -- I just ordered 3 pairs of THX glasses. I was going to order 2 ($8.10 including S&H), but I changed the order to 3 pairs for a total of $8.40. I got an extra pair for only 30 cents more. No sales tax since the cost of the glasses was $0.00.

Daryl L -- You have an "Oops" in your post #747 (#106 is Primary Red - you said Green) :D.Thx, and corrected.

Daryl L -- I downloaded Lee's filter lists by both Numerical and Chromatic order. Their #079 filter is called "Just Blue" (instead of Primary Blue). It's interesting that the #071 appears to be a lot darker blue than their #079 Just Blue or their #120 Deep Blue (on my laptop monitor - not calibrated). Both the #106 and #139 filters, however, seem to be the same level as their #079. Using my laptop screen and their PDF file is not a fair comparison, since it's the transmission properties that are important and not a picture printed with PC graphics on an uncalibrated PC screen.Yep, I noticed on the pdf it said "Printed colors are approximate only" I was just noticing the naming to the colors. :)

Daryl L -- BTW, I must be dense or something :eek:. I looked on the Lee Filter USA site, and I can't find how to order their sample filter pack. Scott, can you give me a hint?I was curious about that myself. :)

BTW, I must be dense or something :eek:. I looked on the Lee Filter USA site, and I can't find how to order their sample filter pack. Scott, can you give me a hint? I just filled out their web info form and asked for a sample book in the comments. But when they get swamped cause I posted this, they might start charging (ala THX) :)

Re how to download latest DVD?

I previously downloaded the 5.1 version after using paypal for the contribution.

Still have my User ID and Password but can't find a link to download on calibrate.tv.
Printed the 28 page manual but need help in finding the how-to.

Thanks

Bob -- You have a PM on how to get it.

Please let me know if I should take this off-line (or delete the post). I downloaded the production version of the dvd, burned it on memorex DVD-R using 1x on a mac powerbook G4 running 10.3.9. The resulting DVD plays, but flickers on a new LG dvb418 running the latest LG firmware. It flickers when it resets back to time zero during the display of a pattern. On my laptop (g4), I don't see it flicker, but it might be too small of an image to notice. It jumps vertically what appears to be a couple of scan line widths. I'm running it at 1080i.

It looks to me like one frame either at the end or the beginning of the loop is offset vertically. Could my burn of the disc have introduced the offset. If so, I do I not introduce it?

Best,
jeff

Please let me know if I should take this off-line (or delete the post). I downloaded the production version of the dvd, burned it on memorex DVD-R using 1x on a mac powerbook G4 running 10.3.9. The resulting DVD plays, but flickers on a new LG dvb418 running the latest LG firmware. It flickers when it resets back to time zero during the display of a pattern. On my laptop (g4), I don't see it flicker, but it might be too small of an image to notice. It jumps vertically what appears to be a couple of scan line widths. I'm running it at 1080i.

It looks to me like one frame either at the end or the beginning of the loop is offset vertically. Could my burn of the disc have introduced the offset. If so, I do I not introduce it?

Best,
jeff

I brought this up and I use an Oppo player. No fix was found for me. I used different software and different media. I am also using 1.1 of the disc.

I brought this up and I use an Oppo player. No fix was found for me. I used different software and different media. I am also using 1.1 of the disc.

I also have an OPPO 971 DVD player. I have the jitters too, though not as bad on 1.1 as I had on the 5.x beta I first downloaded. It seems to be fine on the audio sync though. In fact, I can go back through the screens and check, it seems like some have it, others do not.

They don't actually keep me from using it though. I don't use the overscan on this DVD.

I'll try to remember to do this later tonite.


Rick

It looks to me like one frame either at the end or the beginning of the loop is offset vertically. Could my burn of the disc have introduced the offset. Nope, it's a zipped DVD folder. If the download zip was corrupt, the zip's contents should be as well. The files are encoded mpegs, no way for you to affect what's in them They are right or they are bad.

The couple of folks who have mentioned what they called a jitter has had an Oppo up until you mentioned the particular LG, and I think the Oppo's were playing it on a CRT. It is not designed for a CRT although it works just fine on my Sony XBR.

If it is a fixed pixel device and still does it, it's the DVD player introducing the blip, I'd suspect on the chapter repeat. If it's only doing it on the "reset to time zero" you mentioned, then I'd say it's a slow DVD repeat. If you are upscaling (i.e. to 1080i), I'd suspect a combination of a slow DVD processor or cache and/or a sub-optimal scaler. It could be the display's deinterlacer which is going to deinterlace 1080i to 1080p if it's a fixed pixel device. I guess.

I have no cure for it since it's not the DVD mpeg. It's a simple mpeg2 video, with very little compression, static images (mostly), with chapter points. Each chapter repeats (end action, play chapter again). If the DVD player won't change chapters quickly/properly, there's nothing I can do to make it go faster. It's not an encoded parameter. FWIW, I have an old early generation Sony DVD player hooked to my also older 36" XBR CRT and it plays it rock solid, not so much as a visible blink. I have an older Denon (2900) hooked to my very revealing Infocus 777 3-Chip DLP projector, also rock solid. I have cheap Apex's on the kids bedroom 19" CRT's, again, no glitches. So from wal-mart brands to fairly high end, I see no glitches. It's not the encoding per se. It's apparently the players (in)ablity to follow commands quickly, or to start the image off properly once a command is received (e.g. the offset line you describe).

I also have an OPPO 971 DVD player. I have the jitters too, though not as bad on 1.1 as I had on the 5.x beta I first downloaded. It seems to be fine on the audio sync though. In fact, I can go back through the screens and check, it seems like some have it, others do not.There was no difference in the encoded files from 5.x to 1.1. Actually, very few of them were changed at all. With the exception of the opening credits, and "info" menu option, there were no changes from the last beta. Point is, their behavior should be identical since they were not changed.

I just downloaded the disc a few days ago and also noticed the "blip" on repeat using a LG DVB418 upconverting to 720 and feeding a Mitsu DLP. I suspect you're right that it is a player related issue, but it doesn't seem to affect the usability of the disc.

Great disc, by the way! Thanks.

Thanks GetGray. It does it on my LG dvb418 and zenith 318 upconverting to 1080i via component. BUT it's not the windowed image that's jumping but the text after more studying tonight. these players when upconverting do odd things to text. No worries. It works great. tonight I got great usage out of the 30/80% and the 10% gray windows.

The black setting screen is fantastic - the one with the moving vertical bars with very small increments. Black level can be set VERY precisely with it. No one has anything close to that on the market. You guys have done a great job with this disc.

Best,
jeff

This disc is just great for creating accurate signals for what matters when calibrating. The red steps are great for determining red clipping. The 30/80 IRE feature is key for fast calibrating with brightness/bias and contrast/gain settings. It's so nice not having to wade through a bunch of other stuff to get to what matters.

Dan

just contributed $25.00 via paypal for the ntsc production version. just wondering how long it usually takes before i receive the download link? Very anxious to start using the disc!!!

Thanks very much guys.
Carmine.

There was no difference in the encoded files from 5.x to 1.1. Actually, very few of them were changed at all. With the exception of the opening credits, and "info" menu option, there were no changes from the last beta. Point is, their behavior should be identical since they were not changed.

Not sure what I can say. Only what I see. Not complaining, I have the short "jumps" in almost all screens on the OPPO. I went through them all this morning, the following don't appear to "jump"

Bright/Contrast
5 black bars
5 white bars

Color
color and tint
Std Bars
multi bars

gray pattern
auto sequence
(obviuosly can't tell on the max black and max white

Misc
lip sync


As I look at this list, one commonality (or almost) is that all of the patterns with movement do not appear to jump.

It's not really a problem, just an observation. I still use the patterns along with AVIA.

Thanks,
Rick

When will the PAL version be made availalbe?

just contributed $25.00 via paypal for the ntsc production version. just wondering how long it usually takes before i receive the download link? Very anxious to start using the disc!!!Within 24 hours per the website. Except for some echecks which have a delay clearing.

When will the PAL version be made availalbe?Still rebuilding the patterns to the PAL size. Be a little while yet.

Still rebuilding the patterns to the PAL size. Be a little while yet.

Thanks! If I go ahead and pay for the NTSC version now, will I have to pay again for the PAL version?

Any possibility that you could include exactly the same test patterns as for brightness and contrast (see below) but for R, G and B seperately. This to be able to set clipping for each channel with higher accuracy.

http://www.calibrate.tv/patterns/brightness.jpg

http://www.calibrate.tv/patterns/contrast.jpg

Thanks! If I go ahead and pay for the NTSC version now, will I have to pay again for the PAL version?No, not for now. Anyone who is a NTSC contributor will be considered a PAL beta tester and have access to PAL through PAL final. I must give the disclaimer though, that I am not positive I can do a PAL version. I believe I can, but I could run into a unsurmountable roadblock in the somewhat complicated process of getting it from RGB to PAL mpeg. I have no way to test a PAL disc, and will be counting on some others to do it.

Any possibility that you could include exactly the same test patterns as for brightness and contrast (see below) but for R, G and B seperately. This to be able to set clipping for each channel with higher accuracy.
I don't think one should be calibrating RGB using such a pattern. You can use the ramps to find the limiting color, or within 5% anyway, then one would use a colorimeter to adjust the other 2 colors to achieve D65 without passing the determined limit of the limiting color. It's not like you can set all the colors so they don't clip and be set. If it were that easy, everyone could do it without an instrument.

NiToNi -- Unless I'm missing something, that's what the color ramps are for. They are in 5% steps, from 0% up to 100%.

I was going to try to answer your questions in more detail, but Scott beat me to it (with a better answer):D.

I don't think one should be calibrating RGB using such a pattern. You can use the ramps to find the limiting color, or within 5% anyway, then one would use a colorimeter to adjust the other 2 colors to achieve D65 without passing the determined limit of the limiting color. It's not like you can set all the colors so they don't clip and be set. If it were that easy, everyone could do it without an instrument.

Of course not, I didn't mean to use them to calibrate RGB but to find and set the limiting color with greater accuracy than the 5% the RGB ramps can give you. For contrast, that is not such a big issue, Colorfacts can be used just fine for that. The problem is to set RGB offset/bias exactly at their respective clipping levels (which can makes sense for offset/bias on a digital display to maximize dynamic range as the eye can barely see "color" at those levels anyway). Instrumentation is not sensitive enough at this brightness level and the RGB ramp is just too crude and small to be useful. The analogy can be made to setting brightness in general (for white): If the gray ramp was accurate enough, that would be the only pattern needed for setting brightness and contrast. Heck, at least within 5% so that should do... :rolleyes:

Have always missed these kind of pattern on the usual suspects to use when calibrating display devices on which you cannot turn off the individual RGB channels and just view one channel at a time (for which the test patterns in my previous post are fine of course).

I see your point. I'll add it to my to-do list and we'll see how it comes out.

Cheers,
Scott

There is one difference though, I can't do above video levels on the colors, unless I create them a little differently than the ramps. The ramps are made with maximum color on the other 2 channels (i.e. for red, each color is made up of RGB=x/1/1 where x goes from 16 to 235). There is no "above red" correlation to above white for example. The YCbCr calculations clip it IIRC.

I can do moving bars in increments of a smaller than 5% increment, maybe 5 bars 94%-100%. I'll think about and and see what I can come up with.

I see your point. I'll add it to my to-do list and we'll see how it comes out.

That's fantastic Scott! I hope you can work the YCbCr=>RGB math out though. :o

Scott, that was the kind of thing I was guessing at. And 5 bars, 0% to 6%, at the black end.

Scott, that was the kind of thing I was guessing at. And 5 bars, 0% to 6%, at the black end.That's 7 bars :). But as for the black end, I'm not following you. We wouldn't need the black end. The only reason I see for such a pattern is to fine tune, that is find with finer granularity, the point on the bright end where the respective colors begin to clip, and thus their max. Some devices may allow that granular of an adjustment, not sure. But in any case one could possibly more easliy see when the clipping occurs with the lesser percentages (i.e. 95, 97, 98, 99%) on a 100% background. As soon as you can't see them all you'd be clipping. No sense having a 100%, unless I can do an "above xxx", which I'm not sure if I can do or not. Maybe +1% or +2% might work IIRC. + something would need to be there for anyone who wants to show a little above white (that is not clipping the limiting color) I suppose. The whole point of this would be to maximize the limiting color and thus contrast, at a more granular level.

But as I consider it, many might tolerate a clipping of the limiting color somewhere above 5% in order to get as much brightness as possible throughout the 0-[95-99%] range. Just depends on target I suppose. It's not like many of these are very linear I don't think. Gonna be off somewhere without heroic efforts, might as well be at the upper end. But for a purist, it would be a good datapoint.

I guess I misinterpreted what NiToNi asked for (since he mentioned Brightness which is the black level end). I would agree that the Contrast (White Level) end is where the clipping would occur.

BTW, my THX glasses were in today's mail. Boy, that looks like a very dark blue. Now I've got to dig out my AVIA & DVE and compare them.

OK, it's interesting; my first impression was that they were darker than the AVIA blue filter. However, when I held them up to a white screen on my computer, the THX and AVIA (supposed to be a #47B) appeared to be very close in color and the DVE blue was much darker (less light transmitted through the filter). A very unscientific comparison, I'll admit. It would be interesting to put them on a visible light spectrometer and see what the wavelength is, what the transmission coefficient is, and what the bandwidth is. It looks like something like the Photo-Research PR-650 might be able to make the measurement.

I've never used my receiver's Audio Delay (0-240ms) feature, but in preperation for getting an external scaler I decided to play around with the feature tonight (I am anticipating need it once the external scaler is introduced).

I decided to fire up the GetGray 1.1 cali disc and try the lip sync pattern out. At the default of 0 it looks right on. I then tried it at different levels. I eventually settled on 30ms - it just seemed to "feel" a bit more accurate than 0 ms. However the reality is that ic could be set at 0 or 50 and still look on. When you think about it, .03 (30ms) seconds is not much time.

So with this in mind, I was wondering if there are any good tricks or rules of thumb to use when using this pattern to find the ideal position (given that a wide range of positions, in this case 0-50) really look virtually identical.

Perhaps its just a matter of not needing any Audio Delay at the moment, but in the event I do due to the external scaler, then maybe it'll be more obvious where the new sweet spot is. Any way just curious if others have experienced the same thing.

I think some people are more sensitive to it than others. It is a very small timeframe as you mentioned. The smaller increments are hard for me to see, only when you get gross sync offsets does it become real beneficial [for me]. I have a Lumagen which introduces some (1 frame IIRC), but I can't see it. Good thing cause my B&K dosen't have a delay adjustment, I'd have to go get a DD box from WSR. :eek:.

My Oppo also has the jitters. I can still use the disk & I am very grateful to GetGray for his efforts, but it would be nice to cure my shaky Oppo if it's possible. Is anyone using an Oppo and not getting jitters? If so, please post your settings, media used, and any other info that you think could be helpful to the rest of us jittery Oppo users.

I'm using the Oppo with my JVC LCOS rptv through hdmi. I used DVD+R media, burned at 4x. I used a Bravo D1 before I got the Oppo & the images were rock-steady, so I'm convinced the problem is directly related to something about the Oppo (I switched from the Bravo because of its major layer transition problems).

I hope this is a proper request for this forum, a lot of us seem to have Oppos.
Thanks!
John H

My Oppo also has the jitters. I can still use the disk & I am very grateful to GetGray for his efforts, but it would be nice to cure my shaky Oppo if it's possible. Is anyone using an Oppo and not getting jitters?

Are you getting jitters with regular DVD playback or just with the calibration disk? It's normal to get jitters with the Oppo and many (but not all) patterns on calibration disks. I get the same thing on Avia Pro as well. If you're getting jitters with normal DVD playback, it could be due to the firmware version you're using. The current one (220) has caused this issue with some displays, but it shouldn't happen if you're using 1111 or 228.

Are you getting jitters with regular DVD playback or just with the calibration disk? It's normal to get jitters with the Oppo and many (but not all) patterns on calibration disks. I get the same thing on Avia Pro as well. If you're getting jitters with normal DVD playback, it could be due to the firmware version you're using. The current one (220) has caused this issue with some displays, but it shouldn't happen if you're using 1111 or 228.
Thanks for your reply, Mike. I'm only having the problem with the GetGray calibration disk, but that's the only "home made" disk I have used. All of the commercial disks I have used, including AVIA (not the pro version) are rock-steady. The Oppo is new (~3 weeks) so it probably has the latest firmware; I'll have to check.

Are you getting jitters with regular DVD playback or just with the calibration disk? It's normal to get jitters with the Oppo and many (but not all) patterns on calibration disks. I get the same thing on Avia Pro as well. If you're getting jitters with normal DVD playback, it could be due to the firmware version you're using. The current one (220) has caused this issue with some displays, but it shouldn't happen if you're using 1111 or 228.Thanks for that info Mike. Hate that it happens (on an Oppo), but glad to hear Avia Pro does it, too. The Pro discs are repeating the sequences the same way I'm doing it, so I expected it to happen, but couldn't confirm since I don't have one. Now I know. If the (other;)) pro level discs do it, I'm less compelled to fret about it.

John: Avia (consumer) won't do it on an Oppo, becasue that DVD does not repeat the patterns, they "play" end to end, then go onto the next pattern (which is part of it's problem in usage). The pro discs repeat the pattern so they don't have a "end" like a regular video sequence. Well they do but they start over. It is extremely unlikely it's the disc media or burn quality. If that were the case, you'd more likely see pronounced studdering, re-reads, and lockups.

I have to Oppo and I'm getting the jitter on the loop as well.... I'm using firmware 1111b. I'm thinking of going to the newest version 220. The lipsync issue is supposed to be fixed.

FYI, I just finished PAL Alpha version 1.0a. I have sent the link to an experienced PAL user to see if my process works in PAL land. If it does, I'll release it for Beta testing to (new and old) contributors.

If you are a particularly technical PAL user and can test the disc, let me know and I'll include you on the Alpha version.

Some of it was pretty straight forward to convert. Other parts not so much. I will have to redo the lip-sync audio though becasue of it's precision .and the difference in frame rates between PAL and NTSC. In other words, the 1st beta will not have Lipsync sound.

Scott

Hopefully someone can help me.

I just picked up a new Windows XP Media Center PC yesterday and am trying to burn this DVD. The problem is that I've never burned a DVD and am clueless how to transfer the files or use the labeller (I have the Lightscribe HP drive). My system is an HP and the software I assume I have to use is "Sonic MyDVD Plus". If I can get ANY help at all, please PM me or post here. I would really appreciate it.

JohnnytheSkin -- There is a thread for just these type of questions. It is here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=613686)!

I will look up "Sonic MyDVD Plus" (I think I have an old copy too) and I'll PM you with what I find out. I have to make dinner first though, so it'll be in about 2 hours or so.

I think I found your answer :rolleyes:. PM sent :D!

PAL Alpha test passed testing. It was mostly a proof/test to ensure all my tools would do PAL correctly. No C code to change/recompile. I will tweak it a little then post a public beta version. The worst of it is behind me. I will work on the 50Hz/25fps sync audio tracks next.

Hey guys got a question regarding the Contrast test pattern. When trying to adjust the contrast on my Sony LCD RPTV (55XS955) the +2%, +5% bars never completely disappear into the background. I pushed my picture setting to the max & the 2 bars were still very visible. How else should I set my contrast to its optimum setting? Is there a service menu option on this particular tv that allows me to push the contrast higher then the allowed user menu settings to make the bars disappear?

Thanks so much guys!!!
Carmine.

I will tweak it a little then post a public beta version.

I am happy to see this ! May I already contribute for PAL version, or should I wait ?

noizemaker -- It sounds like you might be going the wrong direction. As you decrease the contrast (white level) control, the +5% & then the +2% should disappear. Decreasing the Contrast control even further should make the -1% and -2% disappear too (of course, the "white"s will look very gray at this point). This setting will also depend on which "MODE" you're using = Vivid, Standard, or Pro. If you're using the Vivid mode, it enhances everything and may prevent you from correctly adjusting the Brightness & Contrast. Per the manual, the "Standard Mode" is recommended for HT use and the "Pro Mode" gives you the most control of all the settings.

Carmine, you are not the only one with this family of Sony LCD displays that have reported this type of "problem". You need to check your manual. I believe that there may be some of the "Auto" settings that, if turned ON, prevent you from adjusting the whitel level (I may be all wet, so please check your manual) -- you may have to "read between the lines" -- see my previous comment.

Also, be sure to adjust the Brightness first and then the Contrast. You then need to repeate the adjustments until no further tweeking is needed.

GinSonic -- You may want to wait until Scott says the first PAL beta is available (unless you can also use the NTSC version). Download the "manual" anyway, I don't think there will be a PAL version of that (there may be a PAL addendum though).

Hey Claus. Thanks for all the advice. I have checked that all of my "artificial" TV adjustments are turned off, tried bringing Contrast down, but like you said that made the screen appear a bit too grey. I have performed the Brightness adjustment prior to attempting Contrast. I will play around a bit more this evening.

Thank you again for the continued help.
Carmine.

As you decrease the contrast (white level) control, the +5% & then the +2% should disappear.

I believe you have it backwards. the +5 and +2 are at levels of video white + 5% and + 2% respectively.

As you INCREASE the contrast (white level) as the display begins to clip, the +% bars should be displayed the same intensity as the rest of the white area.

At proper white levels you should be able to see the -1% and -2% bars, but none of the +% bars.

Vern

I am happy to see this ! May I already contribute for PAL version, or should I wait ?It's up to you. It is coming, just can't put a date on it yet.

Vern, you're right, I goofed. I guess I was sleepier than I thought :eek:. I didn't read my own words in the "Instructions" :rolleyes:.

However, if your display is set to display Whiter-Than-White, then you will see at least the +2% bar, even though it's not needed for showing full white level details. The Sony models, like Carmine has, seem to have setups that are different from others (Sony seems to like to provide very bright displays - OT comment).

PAL Alpha test passed testing. I will tweak it a little then post a public beta version. The worst of it is behind me.

Brilliant! Keep up the good work Scott!

The only reason I see for a black end pattern is to fine tune, that is find with finer granularity, the point on the bright end where the respective colors begin to clip, and thus their max. One could possibly more easliy see when the clipping occurs with the lesser percentages (i.e. 95, 97, 98, 99%) on a 100% background. As soon as you can't see them all you'd be clipping. The whole point of this would be to maximize the limiting color and thus contrast, at a more granular level. For a purist, it would be a good datapoint.

Exactly! That is the whole point! I really hope you see the point of such RGB patterns because I do and have been looking for some for a long time.

For each color you need a "brightness" pattern with a couple of patches (10 actually) at each video level between 12 and 20 against a background at level 16. For the "contrast" patterns you need to have more range above 235 so you can observe at what level clipping actually occurs and thus be able to determine your level of headroom upwards. I would suggest patches at each video level between 232 and 255.

How cool wouldn't it be able to say at the next dinner party " Yes Mr. Kane, I admit to clipping hard at 235, but only for Red, my display's limiting color. Blue and Green OTOH, when brought in line with red to produce D65, actually have dynamic headroom enough as not clip all the way up to 255. So I can still make out the contours of "illegally" coded cirrus clouds - and I have the test disc to prove it! Now, how does that impact my waveform pre-235 though?"

Kind of... :D

Without having read all 27pages of this thread I may be asking a silly question. Can an average user take advantage of the calibration disc and get good results? Or do you need a degree in a/v tuning?

Brilliant! Keep up the good work Scott!
For each color you need a "brightness" pattern with a couple of patches (10 actually) at each video level between 12 and 20 against a background at level 16. For the "contrast" patterns you need to have more range above 235 so you can observe at what level clipping actually occurs and thus be able to determine your level of headroom upwards. I would suggest patches at each video level between 232 and 255. Cant go that far above and below video levels with "pure" colors. And as for the black, it would be dark red on black. I don't think it would be visible. Can't make blacker than black red :cool:

Without having read all 27pages of this thread I may be asking a silly question. Can an average user take advantage of the calibration disc and get good results? Or do you need a degree in a/v tuning?
In my opinion, skip reading the thread, go to the website (www.calibrate.tv), download and read the "manual". It is short enough, concise and will let you know if you can use it or not. For the fundamental adjustment of brightness, contrast, color and tint, I think about any intelligent person can use it. For other things you have to have a colorimeter, but anyone can see if a grayscale is grossly off by looking at a ramp. Alignment can be a easy thing to adjust depending on the display.

Hey Mr Grey I have a new mits 1080p with the individual color control. Could I use the disc and dial them all in individually?

In my opinion, skip reading the thread, go to the website (www.calibrate.tv), download and read the "manual". It is short enough, concise and will let you know if you can use it or not. For the fundamental adjustment of brightness, contrast, color and tint, I think about any intelligent person can use it. For other things you have to have a colorimeter, but anyone can see if a grayscale is grossly off by looking at a ramp. Alignment can be a easy thing to adjust depending on the display.


Thanks . Will do. Ignore that last question. I'll have my son check all that stuff. He is into it and can make it work.

Now that the PAL situation is sorted out, any chance on getting an ATSC disk with both 1080i and 720p test patterns?

That would round out the set nicely since I suspect that many of us have both DVD and HD signals going to our various displays.

Now that the PAL situation is sorted out, any chance on getting an ATSC disk with both 1080i and 720p test patterns?

That would round out the set nicely since I suspect that many of us have both DVD and HD signals going to our various displays.Nope, I don't think so. The encoder is too expensive for this little project still. One needs a HTPC to play one anyway right now. Before I invest the time and $$ in a HD disc, I'll have to wait to see what falls out as the standard for HD delivery (BR or HDDVD). Early adopter prices are just too much right now.

To echo a recent problem, I'm also having a hard time seeing the "above white" bars in the contrast pattern. I have a 50" SXRD with nearly everything turned off, and Iris at 2 and Advanced Iris at Low. Any suggestions or methods for seeing them? I also have the power saving feature on reduced, which decreases the light output (thought that might help some). Thanks!

JohnnytheSkin -- As we said in the manual, some displays may not be able to show WTW = more than 100% (or BTB = less than 0%). Your's seems to be one of them. Normal video levels go from 0% to 100%, so you aren't missing anything. The manual tells you how to adjust your set for maximum gray scale range (contrast ratio).

Your problem could also be due to the way your DVD player is set up. Check your DVD player manual and see if there is a setting for YCrCb and RGB (or something similar - check the DVD player Forum).

The problem that noizemaker had was just the opposite. He couldn't get the WTW (the +2% and +5%) bars to not display. These variations just emphasize the differences between various displays (and DVD players) and how they process the video signals.

Nope, I don't think so. The encoder is too expensive for this little project still. One needs a HTPC to play one anyway right now. Before I invest the time and $$ in a HD disc, I'll have to wait to see what falls out as the standard for HD delivery (BR or HDDVD). Early adopter prices are just too much right now.

Makes sense. FWIW, there is a freeware BluRay authoring option, not sure if there is an equivalent for HD-DVD.

http://www.avsmedia.com/DiscCreator/index.aspx

On a DVD note, the new plasma finally arrived this week and I have re-iterate how much simpler it is to set up with this DVD. Brightness and contrast were done in less than 5 minutes.

Once the SpyderTVPro comes out I'll probably be getting one of those (or a Spyer2Pro) and tackling the greyscale head on, although it looks pretty good just eyeballing it.

To echo a recent problem, I'm also having a hard time seeing the "above white" bars in the contrast pattern. I have a 50" SXRD with nearly everything turned off, and Iris at 2 and Advanced Iris at Low. Any suggestions or methods for seeing them? I also have the power saving feature on reduced, which decreases the light output (thought that might help some). Thanks!

What DVD player are you using? I had to adjust contrast in my DVD player (OPPO) before the whiter than white appeared on my display. (Actually I also had to adjust Brightness on DVD as well, before I could see any BTB).

Rick

I'm using a Sony HTib upconverting player over HDMI (the DAV-FX80). The only adjustment on the player is black level, and having it set at "Normal" (the other option increases the brightness) allows me to see blacks fine...though I haven't checked if it changes the WTW.

I had to bring up the Contrast on my Denon 2910 in order to make the +2% & +5% bars disappear also.

I've read that this disc is for digital PJ only ? is there a reason why i cannot use it for my CRT front PJ ?

I'm using TT and spyder2.

I've read that this disc is for digital PJ only ? is there a reason why i cannot use it for my CRT front PJ ?

I'm using TT and spyder2.Yes, briefly covered in the manual, but for one, there is no blooming pattern for adjusting contrast. Another example is there are no convergence patterns. So, if you have convergence set and brightness and contrast set, you could use the rest of it, but the point of the disc is to be a one-stop disc for fundamental calibration. If you have something else with contrast and brightness and convergence, you might not need my disc. Unless you prefer it's grayscale patterns and ease of access, accurate colors, and my color/tint pattern :).

Message to recent/future contributors:

Recently I've received a couple emails where contributors didnt' receive their links to the DVD download. I always send a response within 24 hours, but it is rarely that long, usually a coupel hours, sometimes in minutes. If you have not heard from me, that means either your own mail software, or your ISP/mail provider has chunked the mail. My mailserver is pristene and not on any black lists but some "free" services have dropped the mail (i.e. hotmail). Also, if you have earthlink type spam guards requiring someone to "signup" to get mail to you, you need to add caldisc05 at calibrate.tv to your "whitelist" if you want the mail. If the signup process is simple as replying toa link I'll do it, but if I have to go fill out something I won't. I leave it up to you to open the gate. If you have not heard from me within 24 hours, only then, PM me here and I'll copy and paste the orignal message to you via PM. Include your original (real) email that you contributed with so I can look it up
Hope that helps, Scott

Scott, that's why I always check my spam blocker programs twice a day, for "eaten" messages, especially if I'm not getting one that I expexted. It "ate" your first message to me as well, but I was on top of it and caught, and fixed, the problem within 15 minutes of receipt.

Would it be a big deal to add a blooming, cross hatch and dot pattern ? or at least the cross hatch and dot pattern ?

I bought your product yesterday and didnt receive your email.

My LCD Vivitek LT32PL1-a ( I think it's the same as the Westinghouse LTV-32w)has brightness and contrast adjustments and also has a backlight adjustment.
Question is where should I set my backlight adjustment? Also when first setting my brightness, should I have the contrast set to 0
Thanks

kuau -- Question #2 => Yes for the first time only, if Contrast = 0 is in the center of it's adjustment range. As the Documentation states, the Brightness and Contrast adjustments are interactive, so you have to go back and forth between the two (do not reset the previous adjustment, at this point) until it's set up as good as possible.

Question #1 => That depends on your preference, on the display, and on the time of day. During the daytime (with lots of room lighting) you might want it set higher, at night (with a much lower level of room lighting) you might want it darker. You should see the "Plasma and Flat Panel Displays (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=60&f=40)" forum for more on backlighting adjustment.

The backlight on LCD flat panel displays are not supposed :rolleyes: to effect calibration, but only you can be the judge of that. Typically, you lower the backlight until the picture is pleasing to your eyes, for your viewing conditions.

audiman -- As Scott has said many times, this DVD is not designed for CRT adjustment (the patterns that you're asking for are only needed for CRTs). If you need those patterns, get AVIA or DVE (they were initially designed for adjusting CRT displays). He also responded to your previous question regarding this issue (post # 819).

This DVD is designed to satisfy the needs of DLP, LCD and other flavors of fixed pixel displays without the added complications of patterns needed for CRT (or audio) adjustment. Scott may change his mind at a later time, and add those patterns, but for now, he has been pretty adamant about not adding them. However, your request has been noted for future consideration.

PS -- Your email should be there by the end of today. Double check to see if your ISP or email spam blocker program has not eaten the message (as Scott stated in post #820). If you didn't have a prior PayPal account, it may take a little while for them to process your payment.

Well, thx for noting my suggestion.

My paypal account shows that the tx is completed. I dont think it was eaten up. I'll send him a direct email if i dont get it tonite.

I will use it for htpc calibration with TT.

As for HDef signal from the cable provider, how can i calibrate my display without a signal generator ?

That would depend on what you're getting from your Cable Provider. ESPN-HD has test patterns (in the wee hours of the morning, at least once a week). HDNET (which you may not get) has them too. I'm not sure about InD-HD (or what ever it's called -- I don't have cable). Check out the HDTV Programming (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=34) thread.

Claus,
I did not know that ESPN-HD shows test patterns. could that be what's going on when titantv.com shows "blank programming" from 12midnight until 2:30am?

Best,
jeff

Yup! Or when it shows "no-information" or "off the air" :rolleyes:. I'm quoting from memory from the last time I checked the HDTV threads (over a month ago).

The Test patterns are only on for about 15 minutes at around 1:15AM PST, IIRC.

NOTE: We're getting a little off-topic here.

This will be a question on the "technical" aspects of the DVD production so I might be able to understand an odd thing I'm seeing with the disk .

On the opening page of the DVD I'm getting vertical scrolling faint white bars moving fairly rapidly from bottom to top . This is a little more obvious on the very next screen which is the opening menu . The oddity is that the left side shows the scrolling bars but the middle and right do not . I also don't see them on any other page or test pattern .

Also , on the first menu page the area to the left of the great big circle , is tinged pink while the right side is gray . The other pages and test patterns don't show this.

Any ideas on what might be causing this ? Obviously it doesn't interfere with using the disk , I'm just curious if it can be explained . :confused:

Scott.................... :)

On NTSC 1.1? What type display?

A couple people have the Beta PAL disc. If you are talking about that one, that's a different animal altogether. I forgot if you were one of the one's who have the PAL beta. SInce your sig says CA, I presume not. I should probably start a different thread for the PAL version to keep the Beta issues about it separate. But I don't want to wear out our welcome wth AVS.

Anyway, if for the NTSC version, I can't imagine about the moving bars. The opening screen is actually a "menu". Same exact methods and procedures as the other menus. Can't imagine why that particular one would behave differently. But I'll take alook at it.

On the main menu, the background is a touched up and adjusted replica of the old test pattern. That particular image including the background on the left and right are created from and included on one layer in the same file. Each menu is created by activating a different text layer on top of the identical background. The only thing changed from menu to menu is the text, which is a different layer and has no background. Point being that if it was tinged on one menu, it should be on the other's too. I don't see any tinging on mine. 3-chip DLP projecting on 110" screen and a 36" Sony XBR 4:3 CRT.

Anyone else see this effect?

Nope, I haven't seen it. Unfortunately, the last time I ran it on my backup PJ was with one of the early beta versions. If I get a chance, I'll try it tonight with the NTSC version 1.0 (I haven't burned a copy of NTSC 1.1, but there should not be any difference).

Scott_R_K -- That almost sounds like you may have a de-interlacing problem, and/or your Color *Saturation" is cranked up too high, or you've got some "auto" control turned on (or off) that shouldn't be (for DVDs, at least). What does the Bella-Nuit pattern look like? If it's rock solid with no "shimmering" or dithering, then it's not a de-interlacing problem.

It could also be related to how you burned the DVD (media, burner software, burning speed, etc.). Send me a PM with the gory details, if you wish.

bdods: Please open a new thread for your question and you'll get a better answer. This thread is about the Calibration Disc specifically. If someone else had your situation and your desired application, it is entirely likely they woudl not be "listening" here on this thread.

If I were you, I'd probably ask in the HTPC forum, but the calibration forum may be of some help, too.

Scott and Claus...

Yup , NTSC 1.0 . Don't know exactly how it was burned as my buddie did that for me . I'll try and find out if you think it important . I didn't see v1.1 !

The trail...Samsung HD-841 , 1280 x 720 out through Component to Infocus SP5000 LCD PJ .

The Bella-Nuit pattern looks OK as do all the rest . When I first spotted it I thought I had picked up a ground loop somewhere . Spent an hour re-plumbing everything until I noticed it wasn't on the right side . I then went through all the other menus and didn't see it .

I threw AVIA and DVE on to check for this pink cast on the left side of the screen and these both showed none of it . Weird eh ?

No biggie , just curious if it really is something on my end . Thanks for the reply and info .

Scott................ :)

Scott_R_K -- Is your 841 set to progressive scan, or not? Shouldn't be relevant though. The only thing I can think of is the DVD burning process. Why don't you find out from your buddy and PM me the answer. This will keep the dirty details (OT) from filling up this thread.

The only difference between 1.0 and 1.1 is how the credits are displayed at the end.

Sorry guys Ive been away for some time and want to know is the PAL version ready yet? Im a PAL person :)

Scott posted (on 3/14) that PAL beta was to be out soon (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7307200&&#post7307200). It should be posted by now. Scott should send you a notice (you may have to email him if he doesn't pick up on your request).

Nope, PAL public is not out yet. Probably this weekend for a mostly complete PAL Beta. Sorry about the delay. Getting some input from select few first.

Scott,

Has the digital RGB values in the IRE windows been updated to reflect there is no setup in PAL (or are all gray windows labeled in % only)?

On this note, I have a request that relates to a problem with using Colorfacts with the PAL test discs that are out there today; When the Gray Scale Wizard is used to measure the luminance at various points along the histogram, the software is expecting the digital RGB values as implied by NTSC and this is not user selectable.

For example, as the first test pattern to put up in this wizard sequence, Colorfacts will ask you to display video black. The program expects NTSC IRE 7.5, or RGB digital 16. So far so good - we PAL users put up a PAL IRE 0 pattern. However, the second window pattern Colorfacts will ask you for is NTSC IRE 10! Now what are we PAL users expected to put up?! A PAL IRE 10 will of course have a totally different digital RGB value (much higher) and better than IRE 10 steps granularity is not to be found on any PAL test discs.

So you guessed it, Colorfacts' gamma calculations for PAL users are totally off :(

The request is hence for a 11 steps gray window pattern coded in PAL but with digital RGB values equivalent to NTSC IRE 7.5, 10, 20..... 100 for use with measurement software (CF, AccuCal, Sencore?) which does not take this difference into account. They should be labeled accordingly (e.g. "NTSC IRE 7.5 / PAL IRE 0 / RGB 16") and, if this is made onscreen, with the same color and intensity as the corresponding pattern.

NiToNi -- Scott will have to answer that one, since he as Colorfacts. But, for my education, why would PAL gray levels be different from NTSC? Video black should be the same in both systems (= digital 16 = 0% stimulus). Similarly, video white should = digital 235 = 100% stimulus (amplitude). There are significant differences between PAL and NTSC, but the gray scale should not be one of them.

It is my understanding (but I don't have Colorfacts, so I could be all wet) that the GetGray levels will work with Colorfacts as is (no conversion required).

For the relationship between IRE levels and the amplitude (stimulus) levels, Scott provided the conversion chart on the last page (Appendix B) of the documentation.

Scott,

Has the digital RGB values in the IRE windows been updated to reflect there is no setup in PAL (or are all gray windows labeled in % only)?

On this note, I have a request that relates to a problem with using Colorfacts with the PAL test discs that are out there today; When the Gray Scale Wizard is used to measure the luminance at various points along the histogram, the software is expecting the digital RGB values as implied by NTSC and this is not user selectable.

For example, as the first test pattern to put up in this wizard sequence, Colorfacts will ask you to display video black. The program expects NTSC IRE 7.5, or RGB digital 16. So far so good - we PAL users put up a PAL IRE 0 pattern. However, the second window pattern Colorfacts will ask you for is NTSC IRE 10! Now what are we PAL users expected to put up?! A PAL IRE 10 will of course have a totally different digital RGB value (much higher) and better than IRE 10 steps granularity is not to be found on any PAL test discs.

So you guessed it, Colorfacts' gamma calculations for PAL users are totally off :(

The request is hence for a 11 steps gray window pattern coded in PAL but with digital RGB values equivalent to NTSC IRE 7.5, 10, 20..... 100 for use with measurement software (CF, AccuCal, Sencore?) which does not take this difference into account. They should be labeled accordingly (e.g. "NTSC IRE 7.5 / PAL IRE 0 / RGB 16") and, if this is made onscreen, with the same color and intensity as the corresponding pattern.

I don't have colorfacts, but their NTSC and PAL versions shoudl be the same as far as gray levels expected. I think Colorfacts supports Accupel patterns and the Accupel puts out %amplitude levels just like my disc. We ran into this issue first with the Progressive Labs software. PL is changing their software now to allow the use of IRE units OR % Amplitude. DVE Pro also uses % amplitude so if Colorfacts supports it, use that option. Avia Pro is in IRE units and you are right, 20IRE is NOT the same as 20% Amplitude and Gamma calculations woudl be affeced if the wrong one was used.

Surely Colorfacts has an option to choose %Amplitude so it can work with a signal generator puttignout % Amplitude like my disc does.

No?

you are right, 20IRE is NOT the same as 20% Amplitude and Gamma calculations woudl be affeced if the wrong one was used.

Yes.

Surely Colorfacts has an option to choose %Amplitude so it can work with a signal generator puttignout % Amplitude like my disc does.

No?

No.

We ran into this issue first with the Progressive Labs software. PL is changing their software now to allow the use of IRE units OR % Amplitude.

I am not holding my breath that this will happen in CF, especially now when Mark has left the ship - that's why I am asking. If you want to add additional value to advanced calibrators above what's already out there, this is a just one suggestion.

:D Hey guys. I donated to the project, but I have not received an e-mail so I can download the latest disc.

Can anyone help? Thanks!
:)

Can anyone help? Thanks!Sure, read just a mere page or so back (post #820):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7348138&&#post7348138

For what to do if you haven't heard from me.

:
Originally Posted by GetGray
Surely Colorfacts has an option to choose %Amplitude so it can work with a signal generator puttignout % Amplitude like my disc does.
No?No.I must say I'm amazed CF isn't compatible with an Accupel. This is the first I've heard of it. Greg can confirm since I don't have a Accupel. But I'm almost positive the Accupel puts out % amplitude. You set it for setup or not, but then it's % amplitude. I'd think this woudl have come up by now, but maybe not.

This means one can't use DVE pro DVD's with CF either, as it is in %Amplitude, same as mine. Avia Pro is on the IRE units scale.

Maybe start a different thread to avoid getting on a CF tangent here. If I can get confirmation this is the case, I'll probably make a IRE unit/scale version. Title the thread "Problems using CF with DVE Pro and % Amplitude Grayscales" The CF gurus ought to jump on that. Not that you aren't a CF guru, I'd just like to get some additional input on it. It will be a lot of work. All the gray patterns would have to be redone. There's really not a good way to fit it on one disc. I'd have to squeeze it on there or more likely just make 2 versions of the disc. The driving feature of my disc is simplicity, only providing the necessary patterns, no more. If one used a software package that requires IRE units (with setup), then they would need that disc. Everyone else would use the %amplitude version.

This is not a new issue. It was discussed a long time ago in this thread. The subject is the reason for the manual's appendix explaining the difference.

ColorFacts does very explicitly work with an Accupel. It can even control it via VBA macros.

I'm almost positive the Accupel puts out % amplitude. .
I'm somewhat apprehensive about quoting Greg, and I will delete this post if requested..


AccuPel levels are always % Amplitude above black level. i.e.
output level = % Amplitude * (reference white level - black level) + black level

For DVI-Video digital signals, reference white level = 235, black level = 16 (30% Amplitude = 82)
For DVI-PC digital signals, reference white level = 255, black level = 0 (30% Amplitude = 77)
Digital values are rounded off to nearest 8-bit value, analog signals are rounded off to nearest 10-bit digital value.
In fact, there is no doubt that 100 IRE is reference white for digital. Since there are very few digital video standards with setup, and none that consumers will run into now, the IRE value and the % amplitude value will be the same for today's consumer digital video standards.

IRE is a relative linear scale. It doesn't refer to any particular voltage or digital level until you specify the signal standard being used.

The IRE unit can still be used to normalize digital video standards. IRE units are specifically used in some digital video standards. If I say you need a 75 IRE digital signal, you can unambiguously figure out exactly what that is in 8-bit, 10-bit, 12-bit digital video using video-levels (16-235 for 8 bits) or PC-levels (0-255), or any particular standard. Using % values doesn't change the fact that you still need to know what digital video standard is being used to figure what digital value it refers to.

For DVI-Video digital signals, reference white level = 235, black level = 16 (30% Amplitude = 82)That's exactly the post I was thinking of. And as Greg pointed out, for the Accupel example of 30% Amplitude = 82, the GetGray disc has the identical value for 30% Amplidude (82). As does DVE Pro. Avia Pro is different, it does not have %, it has 30 IRE which is digital 69 for example. They are not interchangable.

ColorFacts does very explicitly work with an AccupelWhich is what I thought, so it ought to be able to handle %amplitude correctly. But if it's using IRE units, then NiToNi is right, with setup, (7.5IRE=digital 16), CF would need to account for this. I don't have CF so I just can't speak to it with certainty.

i have a simple question. on my 42px60u i cannot adjust the picture setting (contrast) for the contrast pattern so that the +2 and +5 % bars are not invisible. no matter how i adjust picture and brightness i always see them. maybe this set just does not have a high white level?

i have a simple question. on my 42px60u i cannot adjust the picture setting (contrast) for the contrast pattern so that the +2 and +5 % bars are not invisible. no matter how i adjust picture and brightness i always see them. maybe this set just does not have a high white level?

Does that set have an adjustable black level or setup? That will have an effect too.

yes it does, black level option can be light or dark... dark obviously makes the problem i'm having worse, so i keep it on light.... brightness (black level) will adjust with no problem

dano1122 -- Read the manual for your display. You may be running in a mode which is preventing Contrast adjustment. If you are using a "Torch" mode (may be called "dynamic" or something similar), then you are running it way too bright anyway. What you've described sounds like your display is set to show whiter-than-white with some kind of auto gain control activated.

You want to make sure that you have turned off all automatic picture controls. These should be described in the manual pages on setup or adjustments. You might also want to check the "Plasma and LCD Flat Panel Displays" forum for your class of displays. They may have some discussion on the setup problems.

I see that you did go to that forum. Did you read the entire thread on Tweeking? It looks like Panny calls it "Vivid" (= torch mode) as the default. You should try the settings quoted in post #6 (click here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7332207&&#post7332207)).

dano1122 -- Read the manual for your display. You may be running in a mode which is preventing Contrast adjustment. If you are using a "Torch" mode (may be called "dynamic" or something similar), then you are running it way too bright anyway. What you've described sounds like your display is set to show whiter-than-white with some kind of auto gain control activated.

You want to make sure that you have turned off all automatic picture controls. These should be described in the manual pages on setup or adjustments. You might also want to check the "Plasma and LCD Flat Panel Displays" forum for your class of displays. They may have some discussion on the setup problems.

Thank you Wiebe. The set has Vivid, Standard, and Cinema. I have tried this adjustment in Standard and Cinema with no success. All auto settings are off (Auto settings in the Picture menu are Color Management, MPEG NR, Video NR. I think my display is set to show whiter than white but I have no idea how to turn it off.

Edit: I've consulted the manual to no avail.

Hmmm. I can't find an on-line copy of the manual, so I'm afraid I can't be of further help. I hope your post to the PX60/600 Tweek thread will turn up some results. I haven't read that entire thread either, so i don't know if there are any other helpfull inputs posted there.

dano1122 -- I did some more looking on the Plasma ... forum and found this thread: Panny Plasma FAQ (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=407154). There may be something on that thread that could help.

On the very first post, there is a list of stuff from BruZZi. I discovered that the PX60U models are this years versions of the last years PX50U models and there was a link to a manual. There wasn't any hint of what the solution might be for your problem. The only thing you hadn't mentioned was the "Color Matrix" (under Picture 2/2, Other). This selects between SD & HD color spaces. This should not be applicable to your problem, however.

In any case, you should be using the "Standard" or "Cinema" mode (the "Standard" sounds better though). Also the color temperature control should be "Warm" I think.

Any news on a public release of the PAL beta?

Bill

Hey guys, lets keep on-topic, please. I kow folks are using the disc, then having questions about their particular display. Then they ask on this thread and Claus and others help out which is great. But what you don't realize is there may be a calibrator who is watching the calibration forum, who is not watching this thread. So when you ask a display question here, you are not only gettign this thread off-topic, but more important for you, you are possibly missing a wealth of knowledge from others watching the *forum* not this thread. So if you are having trouble witha particular display, first search the forum for answers already there, then post a new thread if appropriate. Something like "Can't see BTB bars on my my panasonic xxxxx". Then explain in the thread you are using the GetGray calibration disc and your display is (is not) doing xxxxxx.

If you have a specific question about the disc, or it's patterns, this is the place to post those.

Cheers, Scott

While this thread is a bit long to read, I have read a few sections as well as the provided documentation, and I offer my congratulations to all involved! The idea behind the DVD is sound, and it appears to have been well executed. While the disk appears quite useful as is, I do have a few of suggestions that I personally would like to see . . . I realize that this is a little late, but I hope it’s better late than never!

It would be good to provide an overall gray scale evaluation pattern as a “sanity check” for any gray scale/color temperature setup that has been done. This pattern should show a wide range of gray levels in a geometric progression (each section a fixed percentage of its neighbor), should have a low APL so the washout from the whites doesn’t affect the darker sections, and should only occupy the center of the screen so any “shading” near the edges won’t affect the observed gray scale. While standard stairstep and ramp patterns don’t meet this criteria, I have developed such a pattern for PCs at www.walvisions.com/PattPages/GammaStnd_xga.html that can be used for reference. With this and similar patterns the viewer’s eye quickly takes in all gray levels in a compact area, and can fairly quickly make out differences in color temperature tracking. Also, since the progression of gray levels is geometric (in this case the encoding for each step is 3/2 the level of its dimmer neighbor), the changes in the display’s gamma settings can be readily evaluated.

Regarding the concern that automatic iris control systems can affect a projector’s setup, there should be a pattern with changing APLs that can be used to check for shifting luminance levels and color temperature. See www.walvisions.com/PattPages/animdynamicbr_xga.html for an example of such a pattern. The lower left stairstep is an unchanging reference to watch while the remainder of the screen undergoes a range of levels in a timed sequence.

Ideally there should be some sequences to evaluate de-interlacing and film 3:2 pulldown circuits. The primary use here is a quick and definitive evaluation for users/pros to determine whether to use the progressive output of a DVD player or the display’s internal deinterlacer. The HQV Benchmark DVD has some good examples of this.

One last comment - while you note that since this DVD is not intended for CRT projectors, and thus convergence patterns aren’t necessary, there are reasons to provide some level of a crosshatch pattern. For one, some digital displays provide the ability to shift the entire red (or blue or green) image one pixel left-right or up-down for a basic convergence adjustment. Also, when setting the optical focus, the entire screen may not come into optimal focus at the same focus setting. Thus a pattern where the focus for all colors can be evaluated in all screen areas would provide the ability to find the optimal focal setting. Unfortunately, the DVD format is limited in resolution, particularly for color difference signals, as compared to HD resolution projectors, so a DVD pattern wouldn’t be ideal here. But a basic pattern might be better than none.

Wallen, I really like your ramp pattern. I would love to see it on the
Get Grey disk. I will be interesting to see how Scott and others think.

Warren: Thanks for the input. One beauty of not having a stack of pressed DVD's is that it's never too late to make a change. That's why I versioned it, so I cold make changes as needed or desired.

We've sort of covered the varying APL subject before for DI displays. It is something I haven't ruled out, but have not ruled in, either.

As for the ramp variation, it dosen't seem very granular. I understand your points, but one thing to keep in mind for all the patterns, and one that has bitten me at least once, is a lot of displays do not have a movable OSD. So one has to either mirror the pattern, or make it large enough to ensure a OSD dosen't render it unusable. By geometric progression, what steps exactly (in digital levels or %amplitude) do you propose? I did use rectangular elements on purpose and they are aligned on 8x8 DCT boundaries to keep mpeg encofing artifactsminimized. It would be trivial (albeit tedious :)) to remake a similar pattern at a smaller scale to keep he APL lower.

As for the convergence, are you suggesting a separate grid for R,G,and B lines/grid on black or just one, typical white grid on black? The alignemnt pattern has some lines, at the lowest resolution I can get. That could be tweaked to have grid corners or some such. But a grid pattern isn't too difficult if it has real value. But at least on my DLP, I dont' find the DVD patterns to be great (as you pointed out) for doing focus. I use my internal Lumagen patterns but I realize that is a rare option.

Thanks, Scott

Thank you Wiebe. The set has Vivid, Standard, and Cinema. I have tried this adjustment in Standard and Cinema with no success. All auto settings are off (Auto settings in the Picture menu are Color Management, MPEG NR, Video NR. I think my display is set to show whiter than white but I have no idea how to turn it off.

Edit: I've consulted the manual to no avail.


Dano,

Check your DVD player, that may be whre the problem lies, I have an OPPO and had to crank it down to -1 to show peak whites on GetGrey DVD.

Rick

Scott,

I think a pattern sequence for evaluating the effect of APL on calibration is worthwhile, since more and more projectors are likely to add dynamic processing, such as irises, based on scene content. Constructing the best pattern and sequence with the most effective timing will likely come only with trial and error.

Regarding the ramp/gamma pattern, you're correct in that the OSD is at least somewhat likely to obscure it in the center location. As a matter of fact, the OSD, if it's large and colored, may even take away from the pattern itself, since you really don't want the pattern dark parts washed out by the brighter sections. You could treat the pattern as a visual check only, with no (or minimal) adjustments expected while it is being displayed. I would be careful about enlarging or repeating the pattern due to the washout effect on the dark areas. For levels, the luminance encoding is R' = 1.099* R^.45 - .099, where R ("brightness"/radiance level) goes from 0.018 to 1 (white), and R' = 4.5*R from R = 0 (black) to .018. Put in the sequence of "R"s that you want - I used 1 (100%), 2/3, 4/9, 8/27, etc., so each step is 2/3rds the brighter neighbor. Rectangles will work, but you lose some symmetry.

Regarding convergence and focus, the pattern I like is one like www.walvisions.com/PattPages/convergence.html, which enables focus and convergence evaluation over the entire screen, with the performance of each individual color easy to evaluate. You could try duplicating this with DVD, but unfortunately the DVD's lack of color difference resolution, along with possible color timing errors, could be a problem.

wallen -- Thanks Walter, I bookmarked your web site. I need to go through it in more detail, but I wish I had some of that information when I still had my Kloss Novabeam Model One. It's been re-tubed once and is still working, BTW, and will be going to it's 3rd owner shortly (along with the service manual).

Regarding convergence and focus, the pattern I like is one like www.walvisions.com/PattPages/convergence.html, which enables focus and convergence evaluation over the entire screen, with the performance of each individual color easy to evaluate. You could try duplicating this with DVD, but unfortunately the DVD's lack of color difference resolution, along with possible color timing errors, could be a problem.Yes, I like the pattern, but I believe the mpeg encoding will kill it. The text would definately not make it. I presume it is your pattern, are you offering permission to copy/use it? I've been careful to not use anything without permission.

One beauty of not having a stack of pressed DVD's is that it's never too late to make a change. That's why I versioned it, so I cold make changes as needed or desired.
Thanks, Scott

Hi Scott ,

Well , that is always good to hear as I too have a suggestion for a future release .

Would it be possible to have a pattern similiar or identical to the Overscan Pattern but encoded as an Anamorphic 2.35:1 image ? This would then place the pattern with black bars top and bottom in a normal 16:9 frame .

For those doing Constant Height 2.35:1 with an Anamorphic lens , this would be a convenient way of confirming the Digital Vertical Stretch and the subsequent Optical Horizontal Stretch . A pattern with circles or anything that could easily be "measured" to confirm proper geometry would be a real benefit .

BTW , still haven't confirmed the recording process on the disk I have that is giving me the "rolling bars" . I will feedback when I get the info .

Thanks ,

Scott................ :)

Yes, I like the pattern, but I believe the mpeg encoding will kill it. The text would definately not make it. I presume it is your pattern, are you offering permission to copy/use it? I've been careful to not use anything without permission.

Yes, you may use it, but I think you're more likely to create a similar pattern to use - one that works best with the DVD format.

I think the other pattern I suggested, the central "gamma"/stairstep pattern, would be a better single addition to your DVD, since it provides a simple visual check after calibration that has been performed at the various gray levels. Note that this pattern is pretty immune to color shading and washout of the dark areas by the light areas. Sometimes even if D65 is achieved for all lower levels, the overall grayscale can look off if the brighter levels are incorrect - using such a pattern you eye can confirm that all is OK. And, of course, the pattern is a good check for gamma as well.

OBTW, I thought I replied a couple of days ago . . . . I wonder where that post went . . .

wallen

OBTW, I thought I replied a couple of days ago . . . . I wonder where that post went .

They had a problem with the servers the other day and some posts had to be deleted.

GetGray and all involved- just a quick line to say what a great job you've done with this disc. I'd played around with it in the past, but this weekend I actually used it for the first time for a calibration session. It saved me a great deal of time and confusion (patterns without labels are just not a good idea!) compared to having to use Avia and DVE. Thanks for including the full fields too, much needed for Ruby auto iris config. Kudos on a job well done and keep up the good work.

Would it be possible to have a pattern similiar or identical to the Overscan Pattern but encoded as an Anamorphic 2.35:1 image ? This would then place the pattern with black bars top and bottom in a normal 16:9 frame .

For those doing Constant Height 2.35:1 with an Anamorphic lens , this would be a convenient way of confirming the Digital Vertical Stretch and the subsequent Optical Horizontal Stretch . A pattern with circles or anything that could easily be "measured" to confirm proper geometry would be a real benefit .You realize that I already have the 2.35 marker on the alignment pattern, right? I put it there just for that purpose, to align/check when using a vertically stretched image going through a anamorphic lens. I suppose it may be usefull to add some horizontal increment lines so if your anamorphic stretch clips the "2.35" lines, then you will know by how much. Since the sides don't change, this can be accomplished on the same pattern I think.

For anyone who emailed or PM'd me over the past couple days, I apologize if I was late getting back to you. We had some tornadoes come through Middle TN where I live and took out power (and several hundred homes, too). All is well now and I'm all caught up on replies as far as I know.

Scott

You realize that I already have the 2.35 marker on the alignment pattern, right? I put it there just for that purpose, to align/check when using a vertically stretched image going through a anamorphic lens. I suppose it may be usefull to add some horizontal increment lines so if your anamorphic stretch clips the "2.35" lines, then you will know by how much. Since the sides don't change, this can be accomplished on the same pattern I think.

Scott

Hi Scott ,

Yes , I know that the 2.35:1 box is there , I guess I might be thinking that the 2.35:1 image should be Anamorphically recorded otherwise don't we just have a staight Letterbox display ? I suppose this is only important for resolution . How do you record your 16:9 patterns on the DVD ?

Also , in my case at least , the vertical stretching method identifies the Anamorphic 2.35:1 AR and applies , correctly we hope , the right amount of vertical stretch . I have no way of doing that to a 16:9 AR pattern with a 2.35:1 AR imbedded into it. Plus , if we simply "zoomed" out to the 2.35:1 box we lose resolution and any helpful alignment lines get a little fuzzier :D

Thanks for taking time to discuss this .

Scott.................... :)

-- Yes , I know that the 2.35:1 box is there , I guess I might be thinking that the 2.35:1 image should be Anamorphically recorded otherwise don't we just have a staight Letterbox display ? I suppose this is only important for resolution . How do you record your 16:9 patterns on the DVD ?
Well, I’ll take a stab at explaining. Experts in the DVD encoding process, please correct me.

I think you’re under a little misapprehension as to how 2.35:1 movies are encoded on DVDs, and the word “anamorphic”. The material on DVDs is recorded as a digital 720 x 480 interlaced video (YCbCr) that is flagged as either being in 4:3 or 16:9 format. {A 4:3 image has 40 pixels of null information on each side of a 640 x 480 image to fill out the 720 horizontal pixels.} Movies that are filmed in 2.35:1 (or one of the other widescreen film formats) and advertised as “widescreen” are still recorded as a 16:9 (720 x 480) image on the DVD, with null information on the top and bottom lines.

As far as I know, widescreen films (such as 2.35:1 ones) are not anamorphically squeezed into a 16:9 format. If they were, then they would not be viewable on non-constant height HT setups.

Using the vertical stretch on the PJ a 2.35:1 image (with black bars on the top and bottom of the image) is expanded to vertically fill the screen. Then, using an “anamorphic” lens the image is horizontally expanded to give you a constant height image that is in the 2.35:1 format.

Consequently, if Scott were to do a 2:35:1 image, it would look the same as if he took his Allignment/Overscan Test Pattern and replaced all of the information above and below the 2.35 lines with black.

NOTE: Anamorphic DVDs are recorded as a 4:3 image with black bars on the top and bottom of wider format images. These are not “widescreen” DVDs.

Well, I’ll take a stab at explaining. Experts in the DVD encoding process, please correct me.

As far as I know, widescreen films (such as 2.35:1 ones) are not anamorphically squeezed into a 16:9 format. If they were, then they would not be viewable on non-constant height HT setups.

Consequently, if Scott were to do a 2:35:1 image, it would look the same as if he took his Allignment/Overscan Test Pattern and replaced all of the information above and below the 2.35 lines with black.

NOTE: Anamorphic DVDs are recorded as a 4:3 image with black bars on the top and bottom of wider format images. These are not “widescreen” DVDs.

Hi Claus ,
Well , risking getting Off Topic a little , I agree that "all" formats are recorded onto a 4:3 space on the DVD , the difference being how the DVD is flagged and whether or not it was recorded Anamorphically . This only increases the resulting resolution as more of the 4:3 area is used to record the image . The final display devise must then be capable of displaying an Anamorphic image correctly otherwise it will be visible stretched . The Flagging is very important .

I'm no know-it-all with this topic :D , I had to go back and re-read some notes , most notibly from here...

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/anamorphic/index.html

BTW , what do you mean by "These are not widescreen DVD's" ? :confused:

Thanks for keeping me on-track .

Scott............. :)

BTW , what do you mean by "These are not widescreen DVD's" ? :confused:

Thanks for keeping me on-track .

Scott............. :)There are some DVDs (older ones before they figured out that people really wanted true "widescreen") that are labled as "Anamorphic", but not as widescreen. I have 1 or 2 of them. They are flagged as 4:3 and were recorded with black bars on the top and bottom to fill the video out to a 640 x 480, 4:3 frame, and then recorded to DVD (at least that is my understanding). This processing is different from anamorphically compressing the movie to fit the 720 x 480 DVD format. These will not display in anything but a 4:3 window unless they are both vertically and horizontally stretched (with the attendant loss of PQ).

According to page 2 of your link, they're usually called "letterboxed" (but I've seen the "anamorphic" word too - but not any of the other added words).

PS - Thanks for the link. I had seen that page before, but now I put it in my HT shortcuts folder.

==> Back to your regular programming :D.

Scott. So now you all clear on the usage of that 2.35 line in the alignment pattern with a projector?

To reiterate, mine is encoded (flagged) as 16x9. It has the full 480 (NTSC ver) lines of vertical information. A 2.35 movie is encoded the same way. The difference is that the studio adds the black bars to the 2.35 movie, then puts the video, along with the black bars on the DVD where black bars + vide information = 480 lines (again NTSC). So when we play the 2.35 DVD, on a 16:9 display, we see black bars. The black bars on a 2.35 are part of what the studio provided us as "video material".

Now when we use the anamorphic lens, we electronically stretch the DVD output so we "push" the black bars off the screen and "stretch" the interesting video part of the 2.35 material vertically to fill the 16:9 frame. Now the picture is vertically stretched. Now, at this very instant, the "2.35" lines on the "alignment" pattern should be at the top and bottom edges of your 16:9 display. Adjust if necessary (or possible) using your scaler or other devices controls. Once that's done, one would put an anamorphic lens in front of the projector which will return the image to it's proper proportions optically. This is done via an optical vertical squeeze (image has same screen width as original 16:9) or via an optical horizontal stretch (image has the same screen height as the original 16:9 screen). In both cases the image is 2.35:1. The bars on my DVD would be used to check before the lens is put in place. It is a check to see if the scaler/projector/etc. is doing the electronic stretch properly.

Clear as mud? More info available on the 2.35 forum.

Cheers, Scott

Scott. So now you all clear on the usage of that 2.35 line in the alignment pattern with a projector?

Clear as mud? More info available on the 2.35 forum.

Cheers, Scott

Hi Scott ,

No worries :D I already have a Prismasonic H-500s Anamorphic lens and a Samsung HD841 to do all the stretching and flexxing :p however the Samsung has a hard time with straight Letterbox DVD's which is probably the flagging . No real biggie , but thanks for taking the time to at least consider this . It's a great DVD .

Scott.................... :)

Thanks for the great disk Scott!

I'm not sure if any one else has observed this, but I get a slightly different vertical alignment when using the alignment/overscan pattern on this disk versus using the pattern on DVE. Horizontal is exactly the same.

I'll have to check that out when I re-calibrate with my new DVD player tomorrow. Although my S.O. may object to running a GetGray vs. DVE vs. AVIA - (I just want to watch a movie!).

Thanks for the great disk Scott!

I'm not sure if any one else has observed this, but I get a slightly different vertical alignment when using the alignment/overscan pattern on this disk versus using the pattern on DVE. Horizontal is exactly the same.
I guess I need to be sure I understand which direction you are seeing a difference. Do you mean you saw a difference left to right or top to bottom? I assume you mean vertical alignment is top to bottom.

What difference do you see exactly? I haven't compared mine to DVE, only DVE Pro and Avia Pro and indirectly my internal Lumagen HDP Test patterns. They all agreed on last check.

FWIW, I just checked both GetGray and Avia (non-pro) and the alignment/overscan is identical on both.

I'm sending 1:1 pixel mapped to my plasma so it would be pretty obvious if they were off at all.

jvincent: Thank you for checking it.

I am not sure that the DVE geometry patterns are properly aligned. I've never really checked though, so I can't say. But I recall someone saying that once, I'm not sure if it was Guy or someone else.

I didn't get to my calibration yet, but I did check DVE vs. GetGray calibration discs on my laptop (1440 x 900). The DVE 1.78:1 alignment pattern (Title 12, Chapter 19) is definitely off vertically by about 3% and horizontally by about 1% (those are my guesses). The DVE (non-Pro) pattern is definitely larger than GetGray's, which is right on. I used WinDVD, Ver 5.0.

In the 75 %, 100 % color boxes.

Is this a % of 0-255 levels, or 16-235 levels ?

Please say exactly what level it is on screen in the next update.
is 75 % red level 192, or level 165 ?

This information might be handy if your using a colorimeter.
And the guide says a "Calibrated colorimeter".
Is there need to calibrate it ?
CT_Wiebe, please point this out in a manual update.

Jeremy Duncan -- We have stated (everywhere) that 0% = video black = digital 16, and 100% = video white = digital 235. I'm not sure how much more specific we can be.

Also, if you look at the chart, that Scott has provided, in Appendix B, you will see that 75% = digital 180 (the right hand column of the chart, Digital/% Amplitude).

If your colorimeter is not calibrated, it can only be used for comparitive measurements, and the color accuracy can be off. Scott should have more information on this subject.

Let me first start of by saying... that im worse than a "Newbie" when it comes to this. I really have no technical knowledge about Calibration of any sorts :D

On that note.. I still would like to have my tv Calibrated (I looked at the sticky for calibrators in my area). While I myself would not be able to use the GetGray DVD ... I definatly would not have a problem contributing to the cause -as many of you advanced users seems to like this product - so I can download and burn the data to DVD; for a hired hand to use when calibrating.

Im under the assumption that anyone I would hire to do the job, would understand the layout.. and not have to question its screens or test patterns?

Im under the assumption that anyone I would hire to do the job, would understand the layout.. and not have to question its screens or test patterns?

While that is probably true, I'm not sure of the value.

If you hire somebody who knows what he's doing, he either already has the DVD or equivalent material that he is already familiar with, so giving him something new to work with probably won't be of much help.

If you have to misfortune to hire somebody that doesn't know what they're doing, it's not going to help anyway.

Jeremy Duncan -- We have stated (everywhere) that 0% = video black = digital 16, and 100% = video white = digital 235. I'm not sure how much more specific we can be.

Also, if you look at the chart, that Scott has provided, in Appendix B, you will see that 75% = digital 180 (the right hand column of the chart, Digital/% Amplitude).

If your colorimeter is not calibrated, it can only be used for comparitive measurements, and the color accuracy can be off. Scott should have more information on this subject.

Please update the manual and test patterns with this info. Specifically:
0% = digital 16
75% = digital 180
100% = digital 235

Not everybody reads this thread you know. But I think everybody would read the manual.
Please consider it.

The labels are also on (most of?) the patterns.

Yup, that was the difference I was seeing... after adjusting the position of the picture with getgrey, the DVE pattern indicated I should move the picture down a notch... Thanks for checking that out Claus.

The 75% color patterns only say 75%. Nothing else.
The chart in Appendix B is difficult to understand.

Please include this info in the manual on page 18 with the info about the 75% patterns.
0% = digital 16
75% = digital 180
100% = digital 235

Little flurry of activity today. I'm subscribed to a dozen threads but for some reason, this one thread just doesn't nootify me of replies :rolleyes: Figures :)

re Levels on color patterns: Frankly I believe the point is moot. Normally one will use a ~75% pattern (vs. 100%) to ensure the device is not clipping. I only added 100% patterns by request. I personally would never use them in a instrument calibration. 75% was an semi-arbitrary choice it could just as well have been 80%. Whether or not one is at digital 180 or a slightly different value (but well below 100%) should not affect the calibration unless the decoder is wrong but then that could go either way. Another example is one test disc will use 75IRE (digital 176) where mine and others use 75% (digital 180). Level wise, both accomplish the same purpose, to be well below 100.

As for the 100%, it is documented throughout the manual that this disc is encoded in video levels where 100% is 235. 100% being 235 regardless of color is implied if not explicit in there somewhere. Anyone using the disc expecting 100%=255 is already making a fundamental error, using a DVD to produce PC level video which it won't do. So labelling them probably isn't going to help much.

At this time I do not see a significant reason to label the color patterns further. There is no technical use in knowing (on-screen) any more than they are full on and 3/4 on; given their intended purposes. Namely, to adjust Color and Tint, and to adjust the primaries with a meter for displays that allow it. Neither of those things will be any different whether the digital levels are 180 (75%) or 191 (75% of 255 and/or 80% video level).

As for the document, it's no big deal, I will change the document's color section to be explicit on the digital levels of the 75% and 100% color patterns next time I make a revision (there are no 0% color patterns).

>>
And the guide says a "Calibrated colorimeter".Is there need to calibrate it ?
<<

Absolutely. One should never use an uncalibrated colorimeter. Devices vary in recommended calibration cycles but they are typically once or more a year for commercial use, possible longer for casual hobbiest use. Spectroradiometers are said to eb more fragile and if you drag one around a lot, I'd probably wnat to test it and have it calibrated more often. Filter based are sensitive to moisture. If your's is out a lot (unlike mine in a sealed dark drybox with desicant), then you might need it calibrated more often. Usually *you* don't calibrate it per se, you *have it* calibrated. Unless you have the reference instruments that is. But then those need to be calibrated, too ($$$).

---------
NefariousOne: Do not get the disc unless you'd just like to have it yourself to take a look at how well you display shows the grayscale or want to support the project. Most folks can adjust brightness and contrast on a digital dispaly safely using a disc like this one, you have to decide that for yourself. If you are paying someone to calibrate your device, they will definately have their own test discs and patterns, hopefully mine :), but you will not be supplying them. It would be like you bringing a pressure gauge to your air conditioner repairman. He'd have his own.

Jeremy Duncan -- To add to GetGray's comments, I agree that the 75% window patterns do not say what the level is (other than it's 75% - reference levels are implied). As Scott said, we will consider adding the definition of 75% in the next revision.

However we repeatedly say that we are talking about video levels and that Reference Black = 0% and Reference White = 100%. On page 6, 5% Gray Ramps, 2nd paragraph, the 0% = digital 16 and 100% = digital 235 is clearly stated, as well as under the Brightness pattern on the same page. This is repeated on page 9 under the 5% Step Ramp, 2nd paragraph. There is another mention on page 11, 10% Gray Windows.

I'm not sure why the chart in Appendix B is hard to understand? The columns are clearly labled. The left hand column is IRE & Digital levels (from 100IRE, digital 235 at the top to 7.5IRE, digital 16 at the bottom). The right hand column is Digital & % Amplitude (from digital 235 100% at the top to digital 16, 0%, at the bottom). The center bar is the full 8-bit digital range from 0 to 255.

Thank you for your time.

Good stuff.

:)

I've been using the DVC disk for a couple of days now and really like the usability. One pattern that I went back to my Avia for was the decoder check for color push/compression. Is there an equivalent in the DVC that I somehow overlooked? If not, is this something that can be added in a future rev? Or, was there a specific reason for not including it?
Thx,
bnam

I'm not sure why the chart in Appendix B is hard to understand? The columns are clearly labled.

The left hand column is IRE & Digital levels...
The right hand column is Digital & % Amplitude...

I don't know if I should look at IRE or Amplitude.
You know that and that's how I found out.
It's difficult to know if I should look at IRE or Amplitude.
Do you see where I'm coming from.
The hobbyist noob calibrator looking at these terms for the first time.

:cool:

:eek:

Can a Colorimeter tell you if your black is level 16 and white level 235, Spot on.
So if the black is 16 the colorimeter will say so ?
I got the impression from Scott that a variation is acceptable.
Meaning black can be read by the colorimeter as level 25, but it's really level 16.
That's the same as reading level 180 as 200.

What I'm asking is. Is there a way around this error rate to a spot on reading by the colorimeter ?
If so. Which commercial colorimeter does this.
And do commercial colorimeters need to be calibrated ?

I think this is getting into more general calibration fundamentals but...

1st, You don't use colorimeters to adjust black levels (brightness).

As for the measurment and use of gray patterns, you were asking about color patterns, which are 75% and 100% *only*. The gray pattern's levels are documented throughly both in the text and on the patterns but other than to show you where you are, the individual values of the patterns have little relavance in doing a calibration.

Colorimeters don't read or discern digital levels. You aren't going to fire up meter X and have it read off 180 and tell you you are high or low, etc. Dosen't work like that, that is not wjat you are measuring. They do discern varying levels of limunance. We tell the instrument the range of values we are measuring
, the start and end points, and their software can calculate a gamma from the assumption what we told it was correct. As for the literal single measurment, the meter has no way to determine a digital level in any fashion whatsoever. 50% on my 777 projector might measure the same luminance as 100% on Bills H79 ;). If meters could read as low as 1% my 1% would likely read higher than a Sony Ruby's 1%, and so on. The luminance part of the measurment is not an absolute measurment than can be related to the digital level of a test pattern. What a colorimeter does measure is the *mix* of RGB that makes up the grays (black to white). On a perfect PJ with a flat response, one could set this by measuring and adjusting any 2 shades of gray and the rest of the shades would follow. But measuring my PJ at 50% for exampe will NOT give the same measurment in luminance as a different device, BUT they should both be adjusted to identical mixtures of RGB to produce a D65 ("color of gray").

As for the instruments, all instruments, even the $10,000 ones need calibration periodically to a reference source.

HTH understand it better. Fell free to start a new thread for basic calibration questions not specific to this disc. Youll find others watching there who can help.

Any news on the PAL version of this? :)

If I try this calibration dvd, how can I maximize its use? Can I approach SMART or Colorfacts levels of calibration? I also have the un-navigable DVE disc and a small photographic light meter.

re PAL status, I hope to have a beta ready to post this weekend. I still have to create the sync pattern sountrack (tedious) but if I don't get that specific item ready I will let the beta out without it like the NTSC beta did.

If I try this calibration dvd, how can I maximize its use? Can I approach SMART or Colorfacts levels of calibration? I also have the un-navigable DVE disc and a small photographic light meter. The disc is not a replacement for something like CF or SMART. It is something that is used with them (i.e. to generate the patterns those systems need to measure). So your question is not valid.

I've been using the DVC disk for a couple of days now and really like the usability. One pattern that I went back to my Avia for was the decoder check for color push/compression. Is there an equivalent in the DVC that I somehow overlooked? If not, is this something that can be added in a future rev? Or, was there a specific reason for not including it?
Thx,
bnamI'm not sure if I can create a pattern for this or not. I'm not crazy about the multi-level colorbars. I have considered a set of patterns for color and tint using the other filters (red and green), which would allow one to compensate for a bad decoder.

I have considered a set of patterns for color and tint using the other filters (red and green), which would allow one to compensate for a bad decoder.

I am all about that one :D

Mark

I am greatful that the full screen grey patterns were included on the disc. In the beginning it seemed like they weren't going to be included. At that time I didn't have an opinion one way or another but in practice it really helps when tweeking FFDSHOW filters within TheaterTek on a HTPC. Different filter settings can cause problems at different points throughout the screen. I display the 10% full screen grey pattern and mess with filter settings looking for any adverse effects edge to edge. I like this disc!

creakndale

I am greatful that the full screen grey patterns were included on the disc. In the beginning it seemed like they weren't going to be included. At that time I didn't have an opinion one way or another but in practice it really helps when tweeking FFDSHOW filters within TheaterTek on a HTPC. Different filter settings can cause problems at different points throughout the screen. I display the 10% full screen grey pattern and mess with filter settings looking for any adverse effects edge to edge. I like this disc!

creakndaleThanks for letting me know something else they are useful for. Cause you are right, I added them only by popular demand :)

I'm not sure if I can create a pattern for this or not. I'm not crazy about the multi-level colorbars. I have considered a set of patterns for color and tint using the other filters (red and green), which would allow one to compensate for a bad decoder.

Thx. The color decoder error is one which appears on a few TVs -- at least it did in the Mits family which i had previously. Luckily, there was an I2C method of correcting. I was trying to figure out if there is a decoder issue on the various settings of the HP. Here, the avia pattern plus different filters was useful.

bnam

re PAL status, I hope to have a beta ready to post this weekend.

Ahh, desperately waiting for this :) !

Ahh, desperately waiting for this :) !

Me too!

Presume it will be on the same link at the original release?

Hi, all.

Great work putting this disc together. I'm already using it when I visit customers. A love the patterns, they are well thought out and easy to use. The lip-sync pattern is excellent.

A couple of ideas I would find useful for inclusion.

1. For black level setting, a 17/17/17 bar as well. Both still and moving.
2. For white level setting, a 254/254/254 bar. Both still and moving.
3. 2/3 Pulldown moving resolution wedge. And 2/2 wedge for PAL.
4. Video moving resolution wedge.
5. 1-254 by 1 chip chart, maybe spread out over several screens.

>>
Great work putting this disc together. I'm already using it when I visit customers. A love the patterns, they are well thought out and easy to use. The lip-sync pattern is excellent.
<<
Thanks glad it helps.


> 1. For black level setting, a 17/17/17 bar as well. Both still and moving.
Will consider

> 2. For white level setting, a 254/254/254 bar. Both still and moving.
Why? On what background? Did you mean 234/234/234? I've heard of folks wanting a little above white, but not *that* much.

> 3. 2/3 Pulldown moving resolution wedge. And 2/2 wedge for PAL.
> 4. Video moving resolution wedge.
I'm afraid I don't have the skills to produce these (i.e. don't kow how). I have the tools, if someone knows how to produce one I'd be interested in trying it.

> 5. 1-254 by 1 chip chart, maybe spread out over several screens.[/QUOTE]
Why, for what use?

Thanks for considering my ideas.

The chip chart is to check for video processing rounding errors. Checking the chip chart would allow us to see that no steps are being eliminated along the processing chain. Avia Pro has a similar pattern that I use all the time. Since we are already considering overshoot a valid issue, why not try to configure your chain to keep it all intact. YCbCr luma is 16-235 nominal, but 1-255 with undershoot and overshoot. Making sure your processing chain maintains this is not only important to the the actual BTB and WTW content, but to the nominal range as well. Rounding errors and video processing can cause intermeditate steps to get crushed as well (imagine 23,24,26,26 kind of situations). This argument also goes for the Luma 254/254/254 bar.

Best,
Carl

Me too!

Presume it will be on the same link at the original release?

You can add me to this list also.

I have the PAL beta ready for general release to contributors. I expect to have it uploaded and the links built this evening (CDT). The location will be different slightly, linked from main webpage. Current/previous/or new contributors will have access to it.

Scott

I have the PAL beta ready for general release to contributors

And my donation is on the way :) !

PAL Beta version 1.2 is ready. As with the NTSC version, please report any problems you see here. There is no audio for the lipsync pattern yet, I left it off on purpose for now. New to thread, see the website for download instructions www.calibrate.tv and read the manual also available there for information about what is and is not on the disc.

Thanks, Scott

Get Grey, I read through the first post and the link to mid-forum.

Aswell as the last page of posts, but I have a question, could you post here, or PM me a link to the summary of all this?

Thx!

Also, I have a nice, but older DVD that does not read the DVD-R format for some reason (I will check both +/- R, but at least one does not work).

Can this DVD be done on a VGA connection and what do you recommend as a way of setting things up if the resolution shown on the computer screen is a few pixels less than what it can display (It may be from the "wobble" mode I enabled).

Thanks!

PS, my bad, I see a bit of what I was looking for at your site...
http://www.calibrate.tv/patterns/patterns.html

Any additional info would eb helpful though!

No summary avail per se. The manual IS essentially a summary of what the DVD is and is not. I recommend anyone new read manual available from website for complete info. The only things here that are not there are nitty gritty technical details we've all discussed, particularly early on.

As for how-to's, best to start a new thread for help. Only items specific to this DVD here, please. Your VGA question would apply to any calibration DVD, so others will likely be able to offer you some help who are not monitoring this thread..

Thanks, Scott

Scott - please consider adding a pattern that consists of 6 vertical bars (each 1/6th the total width). The first bar should be 0 IRE, followed bar a bar for 2 IRE, 4 IRE, 6 IRE, 8 IRE and 10 IRE.

With the Ruby's exceptional contrast you can actually see the difference between these steps. Although I cannot measure below 5 IRE, having these bars would allow us to calibrate the grayscale at 5 and 10 IRE, and then eye ball 0-10 overall to make sure no odd color shift is occuring in the very low end. Thanks.

Scott - please consider adding a pattern that consists of 6 vertical bars (each 1/6th the total width). The first bar should be 0 IRE, followed bar a bar for 2 IRE, 4 IRE, 6 IRE, 8 IRE and 10 IRE.

With the Ruby's exceptional contrast you can actually see the difference between these steps. Although I cannot measure below 5 IRE, having these bars would allow us to calibrate the grayscale at 5 and 10 IRE, and then eye ball 0-10 overall to make sure no odd color shift is occuring in the very low end. Thanks.
I'll add it to my consider list. But I haven't been doing IRE units. I presume you meant %amplitude since 0,2,4,and 6 IRE are below black (presuming the standard setup where 7.5IRE = black).

Just waiting for my e-mail...I hope you got the paypal

Ninjahedge -- Using the PC to run the calibration defeats the purpose of calibrating your DVD playback chain. The PC to display interface (using the "VGA" - HD15) connection will give you different results.

Your older DVD player should be able to read DVD-R discs (but they must be finalized) and they are cannot be written at too high a speed (ie. "Max"). You should check to see what the maximum DVD-R speed is (marked on your DVD-Rs) and then write them at the next lower speed. If this doesn't work, send me a PM with your DVD player name & model and the software that you are using to write the DVDs.

I'll add it to my consider list. But I haven't been doing IRE units. I presume you meant %amplitude since 0,2,4,and 6 IRE are below black (presuming the standard setup where 7.5IRE = black).

Yes, I think... Basically - consider the 5 IRE window pattern. Now consider what you would use for a 2 IRE window pattern, 4, 6, 8, and 10. Now instead of windows make them vertical bars and put them on the same pattern. Then you would have what I am trying to describe. Thanks.

lovingdvd -- GetGray wasn't talking about "windows" vs. "bars". 0% amplitude = video black = digital 16 = 7.5 IRE (typical definition) for analog signals. When you talk about 2, 4, and 6 IRE, you are talking about "below black". Only 8 and 10 IRE are above video black. Since IRE is keyed to analog voltages which are not applicable to digital displays, talking about IRE without further definition (in terms of video intensity/amplitude) really has no meaning.

What GetGray (sorry Scott for stepping in here) is asking is: Do you mean 0%, 2%, 4%, 6%, 8% and 10% amplitude gray bars? Right now, the Brightness pattern covers -4%, -1%, 0%, +1% and +2% amplitude gray bars (these correspond to digital 7, 14, 16, 18 and 20). It almost sounds like you're asking for a pattern with digital 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, & 18 (or 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, & 20) - remembering that digital 16 = 0% amplitude = video black.

If you are looking to doing a fine tuning of the gray scale in the black to below black region, then I would think a digital 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, & 18 bar pattern would be the best choice. I'll leave it up to you to translate that range into your definition of IRE steps.

lovingdvd -- GetGray wasn't talking about "windows" vs. "bars". 0% amplitude = video black = digital 16 = 7.5 IRE (typical definition) for analog signals. When you talk about 2, 4, and 6 IRE, you are talking about "below black". Only 8 and 10 IRE are above video black. Since IRE is keyed to analog voltages which are not applicable to digital displays, talking about IRE without further definition (in terms of video intensity/amplitude) really has no meaning.

What GetGray (sorry Scott for stepping in here) is asking is: Do you mean 0%, 2%, 4%, 6%, 8% and 10% amplitude gray bars? Right now, the Brightness pattern covers -4%, -1%, 0%, +1% and +2% amplitude gray bars (these correspond to digital 7, 14, 16, 18 and 20). It almost sounds like you're asking for a pattern with digital 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, & 18 (or 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, & 20) - remembering that digital 16 = 0% amplitude = video black.

If you are looking to doing a fine tuning of the gray scale in the black to below black region, then I would think a digital 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, & 18 bar pattern would be the best choice. I'll leave it up to you to translate that range into your definition of IRE steps.

Hi Claus,

I'm not interested in below black - just the very bottom just before black.

The best way I can describe it is to think of it like this. Right now there are window patterns for steps of 5 - starting at 5 and going to 100. Now, imagine if these started at 2 and went to 10, in steps of 2 (2,4,6,8,10) and this level of brightness associated with 2,4,6,8,10 was placed in veritcal bars across the screen so all 2,4,6,8,10 levels are on the screen together.

When you ask "Do you mean 0%, 2%, 4%, 6%, 8% and 10% amplitude gray bars? " - I believe the answer is Yes.

It sounds like the brightness pattern is using +2% as the brightest bar. So then what I'm asking for is 2%, 4%, 6%, 8%, and 10% as vertical "stripes" all on one pattern.

I hope this explains it better. Thanks.

I've had multiple requests for more information in a "dark bar" type of pattern. I see no reason not to add it. I'll consider the best increments of the bars to meet all the needs. One pattern recently requested was *all* levels, 1-255. That would certaintly cover it. At these relatively small incremental steps (2,4,6..), it's not going to be very far from a gradient ramp). But in any case, I get the point, and this is no problem to create.

lovingdvd, What are you measuring with that you trust to 5%?

I've had multiple requests for more information in a "dark bar" type of pattern. I see no reason not to add it. I'll consider the best increments of the bars to meet all the needs. One pattern recently requested was *all* levels, 1-255. That would certaintly cover it. At these relatively small incremental steps (2,4,6..), it's not going to be very far from a gradient ramp). But in any case, I get the point, and this is no problem to create.

lovingdvd, What are you measuring with that you trust to 5%?

Actually Scott - here's what's very cool about the Ruby. With its super high CR (my settings have been said to achieve close to 30,000:1) you definately CAN see distinct differences in 2% increments. In a pattern like I am asking for, it probably at first glance would look more like a ramp. But on close inspection one would be able to tell.

So the beauty here is that, with this new pattern we are discussion, one could get a sense for how well 0-10 is calibrated just by having a reference in all the bars together. Its just like with regular bars, say 10% steps from 10-100. When one bar is off, it makes it obvious in the pattern that something is not right (although the bar that looks off is not always the culprit).

So with this pattern one could get a sense for how well the very low end is.

Now regarding how I am measuring the 5% window (perhaps this is not the same as 5 IRE - don't know based on the recent posts here it sounds confusing) - funny you should ask - I just posted about this earlier today. See this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7565177&&#post7565177

And yes, I am confident of the results on the 5 window. When its at D65 dE 0-3 it looks right. It is so sensitive at this level that one click of R,G, or B offset and the dE can jump from 0-3 to 12-15. When this happens you can see the contamination by eye immediately in the pattern.

Same exact thing happens at 10. However once everything is in balance, you can step from 5 to 10 to 15 to 20 etc and see that the intensity is going up with no noticeable color shift. This is why I am reasonably sure I am getting good results at 5.

This is extremely useful stuff. The Accupel HDG-3000 has a feature to change it into "1-10" IRE instead of "10-100" IRE mode for fine-tuning the very low end. The eye is much more sensitive to color shifts in the low end of the grayscale than in the mid and high end, but most instrumentation cannot measure such low levels. Enter the optical comparator. By doing 20-100 with color analyzer, and then shifting to low IRE mode, you can tweak the close to black by eye or with comparator. I realize that most displays do not have grayscale controls to do this, but if you are working with an external scaler (like a Lumagen) you will have 11 point grayscale control. You can setup 3 points to cover 0, 5 and 10 for example and then do a low-end calibration to get any color shifts out. It works remarkably well, and anything close to black will now look black instead of having red/blue/green casts. Most displays gamma lookup tables don't allocate enough bits to the lowest end of the grayscale, and this can help us identify those weaknesses and work around them.

That said, a 1-10 by 1 amplitude step pattern, or a 1-25 by 1 digital value step pattern would be great. I could also use a similar one for the 10-20 range where color analyzer normally have a hard time measuring the values correctly.

OK, will do. PAL is done and out now. We haven't had anyone say anything is wrong with it. I was conderned about PAL since I had limited ways to test it, but it's created using an identical process and all my software tools support it, so shoudl be OK. Based on the issues reported (none so far), I'll be able to start working on some additional NTSC patterns like that one.

Scott

Hi Scott and thank you for the PAL- Version.
I have one suggestion for both Versions of your DVD´s:

When I do my Calibration and go back to the Menü- Pattern, I´l be always at the first Value from the Pattern. Often I have next to chose a Value at the ending part of the Menü. So I must navigate to this area with my remote over the Values in the middle. My suggestion is to use the first Value also to jump direct to the end of the Values by pressing the up Key. For me this be very usefull.

Best Regards Damdy

Hope this "issue" is not a part of my DVD- Soft.

Damdy, I think I understand the jist of your request, but am not sure about the details. Give one literal example. List sequence of keypresses and patterns on what it does, then the same list for what you would rather have, so I'm clear.

take as starting Point the 10% Gray Windows, to go back to the Main- Menü you have to press 4x down and enter. My suggestion is only 1x up and enter. A other example: You go to the back from the Color Pattern and unfortunately you chose 1x down to mutch, now you are at the Color&Tint. But you cant jump with 1x up go back, you have to press 3x down.

BTW: I have notice that when you go back from a Pattern (example Color Pattern 100% Window) or Menü to the previous Menü, that always is the first Menüpoint selected but without the highlighting blue.

BR Damdy

one suggestion more that hopefully not discuss bevor :)

Is there a way to have the Greyscale and Primary/ Secondary Pattern in one sequence? Maybe with a link ore something. If so I have the ability to make a complete Greyscale and Prom/Sec Reading with the Spyder with only one click and lay back to drink a cup of coffee during the reading :D

Jeremy: I don't think it's proper to adjust hue and saturation using RGB controls. One would use RGB controls to adjust a grayscale to it's proper settings, and hue/sat will have no effect on the grayscale, so the converse should also be true. Start a new thread on it (i.e. Using RGB to adjust color/tint on a PC) and get input from the color science experts in the calibration forum. I believe you are going about that in the wrong way so the pattern would not make sense for me to add at this time.

Is the final ready for Pal users yet please?

This is extremely useful stuff. The Accupel HDG-3000 has a feature to change it into "1-10" IRE instead of "10-100" IRE mode for fine-tuning the very low end. The eye is much more sensitive to color shifts in the low end of the grayscale than in the mid and high end, but most instrumentation cannot measure such low levels. Enter the optical comparator. By doing 20-100 with color analyzer, and then shifting to low IRE mode, you can tweak the close to black by eye or with comparator. I realize that most displays do not have grayscale controls to do this, but if you are working with an external scaler (like a Lumagen) you will have 11 point grayscale control. You can setup 3 points to cover 0, 5 and 10 for example and then do a low-end calibration to get any color shifts out. It works remarkably well, and anything close to black will now look black instead of having red/blue/green casts. Most displays gamma lookup tables don't allocate enough bits to the lowest end of the grayscale, and this can help us identify those weaknesses and work around them.

That said, a 1-10 by 1 amplitude step pattern, or a 1-25 by 1 digital value step pattern would be great. I could also use a similar one for the 10-20 range where color analyzer normally have a hard time measuring the values correctly.


... and not only for gray but also for R, G and B seperately please :D

... and similar patterns for the higher amplitudes, i.e the 235-254 range :D :D

Is the final ready for Pal users yet please?There have been no reported problems with the current PAL Beta. If that stays the case, the current Beta will be the final, except for the addition of the lip-sync sound track. I'd like to let it "cook" just a little while longer to give anyone an opportunity to report any issues discovered before calling it final.

Thats good as I have just put my order in for a PAL one :)

will the pal version work if my tv's tuner is ntsc?

will the pal version work if my tv's tuner is ntsc?
No idea, why not just use the NTSC version?? :confused:

Not many people are going to compare the tone of the red, green, blue color bars as it is now.
And I'm sure it would be beneficial overall to everybody.
Sounds alright ?I don't know what you mean by "tone" of the colors, that's not a term I use or have seen used. But getting the intensities of the RGB ramps the same by eye isn't really an effective way to be adjusting same, IMO. I don't see a mainstream use for it. You are the only person to have ever asked for it and I think your method might not be doing what you think it is.

The goal of this DVD is to provide a fundamental set of patterns required to do a calibration. "Bare bones" if you will. Some might argue that the full 6 disc set of DVE pro is the fundamental minimum set, but in my experience, that is not the case for most calibrators. What the disc has now gets all of it for the majority of calibrators. I don't know of a specific use for a multi set of colorbar ramps. They are there now only to determine clipping points. I have had other patterns suggested that I believe are more worthy of consideration. I do want to keep the disc as "clean" as possible, with limited menus and submenus. It is designed to be easy to use for someone needing to do the fundamental settings on a digital display, namely brightness/contrast, grayscale, and color/tint on a video display device (i.e. projector/plasma/RP-DLP/RP-LCD/SXRD/etc. It's not really geard to doing work on a PC, other than to setup an appropriate video playback software package designed for playing video level DVD's.

My point is, I don't see a real fit/need for your requested pattern on this disc. None of the pro level discs I have have such a pattern IIRC.

No idea, why not just use the NTSC version?? :confused:

I thought just the pal version was out? My mistake i guess.

I thought just the pal version was out?No problem, glad you asked. If you didn't know, other's won't either.

NTSC was 1st and has been done for a while. Any discussions here for new patterns are for consideration of future versions. See www.calibrate.tv or the link to the "NTSC production ready" milestone post (in this tread) at my signature below..

Hi Scott,
have you see my Posts #931+932?
Feels like a little bit they go under

Greets Damdy

Hi Scott, have you see my Posts #931+932? Feels like a little bit they go underSorry, Damdy, yes, I did. I added it to my check list. Part of what you want makes sense to do, but part of it won't work for anyone.

Unfortunately having an "up" button make a menu change is a big deal involving very complicated command sequence navigation programming. If that were the only issue, I'd consider it, it's not the work I mind. The problem is if someone has a DVD player that is not supporting the DVD spec 100% (and a great many don't evidently), then that player's navigation of the GetGray DVD could be unpredictable.

Even if it were technically feasable, the "exit on up" idea has a downside ;). For those who accidentally pressed one too many downs and wanted to go up one, if they pressed "up" and were sent back to the main menu, they'd be pissed :). It would not be intuative. The DVD is however programmed to honor Root Menu and Title Menu choices which will take you directly to the menu where you made the selection or up one level (main menu) using the root menu button.

Having each pattern end with the same selection (i.e. when leaving the pattern provided for button 3, button 3 would be selected) might be doable vs having button 1 selected. If your player is giving no selection, then it might not be obeying the command to highlight button 1 that's in there (probably a DVD spec thing - see above). I'd hav eto check the specific pattern to see if it was trying to select the "menux-no button" or "menux-button 1" to verify.

As for the specific pattern sequence you asked about, every software package prefers a different sequence. Early on in one of the beta's I had a "quick sequence" option for using the DVD. It was tailored specifically to Jeff's (umr) i1Pro software which I did specifically for Bob Sorel. But it was specific to that software package sequence. It just wasn't practical to develop a sequence for every software package, and teh "quick sequence" was redundant for those not using it, added confusion and unnecessary complexity. Not being complex is one of my design goals, it's easy to stray from that. I did make Bob a custom disc and that's an option for you if it's real important to you, but would take some time. You'd have to contact me off-line for that, I'd treat that on a custom disc basis.

Sorry I didn't answer, didn't mean to appear to ignore you. YOu are right, it's easy for the questions to scroll-off..

Best, Scott

thanks for your Comments.

Regards Damdy

I have considered a set of patterns for color and tint using the other filters (red and green), which would allow one to compensate for a bad decoder.

I am all about that one :D

Mark

Yeah me too. This is a very useful pattern on for example AVIA.

I was wondering if anyone had added this disk to DVD Profiler (www.intervocative.com). I was looking for mine copy, and realised it was misplaced since I had not filed it into my system.

If someone has all the contributers/info to add it, that would be great. If not, I'll give it a try in a few days, once for NTSC and once for PAL.

I had a PM that I wanted to post. I don't think the OP will mind:

hello!
exellent piece of cal disc you made!.... :) (and trust me..i tried almost all.. )

one minor hint though...on the NTSC version..(same on Pal..i guess)
don't know if anyone said this..
but the colorpattern 75%windows (probably the 100% too..haven't checked) whould be nice if you could change the sequence order on the Magenta and Yellow
windows pattern... whould be nice to have them in the same order that Colorfacts 6 wants it in the "Primary wizard".... thats whould be:

1.Red
2.Green
3.Blue
4.Cyan
5.Yellow
6.Magenta
7.White

This is a new question. I will check and see what my other calibration packages expect as far as order goes. I have OpticOne (CA-6X), and i1Pro DCS.

P.S. I see no reason not to make this change for a future version unless all the packages are different.

Thanks for the suggestion,
Scott

All the packages are different. AVIA PRO is in the order that OpticOne (Progressive Labs) wanted it - but has you doing the remote dance with ColorFacts.

I solved that problem with an Accupel....

I used the disk last night for the first time, I really like it but I do have a question. I am sure someone has asked this before but I have not read through all the posts yet. I am using a Panny projector 900u, and I set my black and white levels last night with the Getgray and my settings are way different than with AVIA or DVE. My brightness is like -17 and contrast is +18 I thought there must be something wrong but when I looked at some video it looked fantastic. Why is my contrast setting so much higher? Also, when I checked my grayscale again it was much more accurate. +- 175 from 20-100%

I am happy with the results, but confused at the high contrast setting compared to when I used the other disks. Maybe I am just used to how low a CRT is usually set and AVIA and DVE are just not good for setting black and white in an LCD. :confused:

All the packages are different. AVIA PRO is in the order that OpticOne (Progressive Labs) wanted it - but has you doing the remote dance with ColorFacts.I'm not surprised (that they don't match). Once thigs settle down I will consider making a set of discs, one for each of the popular packages CF, O1, i1Pro. Then I can give folks just what they need for their particular software package. I can do a IRE and a %Amplitude version, as well as set the order of patterns and make any software specific sequences.

Scott

I used the disk last night for the first time, I really like it but I do have a question. I am sure someone has asked this before but I have not read through all the posts yet. I am using a Panny projector 900u, and I set my black and white levels last night with the Getgray and my settings are way different than with AVIA or DVE. My brightness is like -17 and contrast is +18 I thought there must be something wrong but when I looked at some video it looked fantastic. Why is my contrast setting so much higher? Also, when I checked my grayscale again it was much more accurate. +- 175 from 20-100%

I am happy with the results, but confused at the high contrast setting compared to when I used the other disks. Maybe I am just used to how low a CRT is usually set and AVIA and DVE are just not good for setting black and white in an LCD. :confused:Jeff: I'm glad it worked well for you. I don't know what would have made your contrast and brightness so different, unless it's just the more granular nature of my patterns and the ability to accurately find the white point where you choose to clip above white (ditto below black). Based on your comments though I'd attribute the satisfaction with the results to a increased range/contrast ratio.

Well that has to be the reason, with the others I was really just guessing at the white level. With your pattern there was a definate point as to where it should be. Before I always thought something just was not right. Now WOW!! I was like hey honey get in here lets watch a movie. :) Tonight I will play some more DVD's but so far I am loving the results, Thanks for a great and EASY to use tool.

Jeff, your results are similar to what I got on my backup HC3 LCD PJ. The reason is that the Brightness & Contrast test patterns on the GetGray caldisc are at their respective APLs, whereas the AVIA & DVE test patterns use a 50% APL for their tests.

Because of this, the Brightness and Contrast can be set much more accurately with the GetGray version. The correct black levels can be more easily judged with a 0% APL and ditto with the white levels at 100% APL. If you look at the combined Brightness/Contrast test pattern, you'll see what I mean.

For some reason, LCD PJs (compared to DLPs) are much harder to get the black and white levels correct with the AVIA or DVE patterns (based on my experience).

CT, thanks for the explanation. :)

Can someone clarify something for me, When calibrating a front projectors greyscale using the getgray disk, should I be using the window patterns or the full screen patterns? I am using the spyder2 pro. I understand you are supposed to use the window patterns for a CRT, but I have been reading conflicting information regarding a front projector.

Can someone clarify something for me, When calibrating a front projectors greyscale using the getgray disk, should I be using the window patterns or the full screen patterns? I am using the spyder2 pro. I understand you are supposed to use the window patterns for a CRT, but I have been reading conflicting information regarding a front projector.

For a digital pj it typically would not matter, unless your projector has a dynamic (auto) iris.

I just donated for the download. I have been trying for the past 2 hours to burn this to a DVD. I am using Nero which came with my dvd burner. The chapters are all screwed up and the video will only play one screen.

Can anyone help out the technically challenged???????????

For a digital pj it typically would not matter, unless your projector has a dynamic (auto) iris.

Mine does have the auto iris, what now? full patterns or windowed, auto iris on or off? I am confused now.

Which pj do you have? I seem to remember the HS60 having better results using full fields, since windowed patterns make it very difficult to get it to D65. The Ruby had a different procedure again, and you had to calibrate for the iris being on, off and in auto.

Gary

Which pj do you have? I seem to remember the HS60 having better results using full fields, since windowed patterns make it very difficult to get it to D65. The Ruby had a different procedure again, and you had to calibrate for the iris being on, off and in auto.

Gary

Gary, I have the Panasonic PTAE900U.

I too have the Panny and Spyder2Pro. I did the following this weekend:

Set dynamic iris OFF
Set the brightness and contrast
Calibrate the grayscale (and Gamma)
Turn dynamic iris ON
Check the gamma/grayscale (it stayed within appropriate bounds)
Retouch contrast and brightness as needed (not much)
Set colors


Seems to look good now ...

Please stay on topic in this thread. Start new theads for the specifics of calibrating some specific device. Keep discussions here to things directly related these DVD's. Please.

Remember that we have a wealth of calibrators who monitor the main forum where you would start your new thread. You will get more help there usually.

re: burning how-to's, PM CT_Wiebe he can help or point you to the thread we started for that particular topic.

Thanks, Scott

Scott, that thread is here ==> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=613686. It's not very visible since the last post was over 2 months ago. However, I am monitoring that thread, on a weekly basis - unless I see it pop up.

PS -- That thread is in the "Home Theater Computers (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=26)" forum.

Tim Christianson -- I sent you a PM on your problem with using Nero to burn the caldisc. See the previous post for the thread on DVD burning problems.

I also posted the PM to there also, for others to read.

Scott, that thread is here ==> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=613686. It's not very visible since the last post was over 2 months ago. However, I am monitoring that thread, on a weekly basis - unless I see it pop up.

PS -- That thread is in the "Home Theater Computers (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=26)" forum.
Thanks Claus, sincerely appreciated.

To add easier access to the DVD burning how-to and help thread, I have linked it in post #1 of this thread. Next time I won't have to remember the thread, and we can point new folks to it or post #1 to find it...

Thanks Claus, sincerely appreciated.

To add easier access to the DVD burning how-to and help thread, I have linked it in post #1 of this thread. Next time I won't have to remember the thread, and we can point new folks to it or post #1 to find it...
Hello. I just found this thread and have read many, many posts, but not all. Could you tell me what the advantages of using your disc as compared to Avia and or DVE?

Thx!

It's easier and faster to use (if you know how to use the patterns - see the Readme instructions on www.calibrate.tv to see if you understand how to use it). The advantage of AVIA and Sound & Vision "Home Theater Tune-Up" (an update to AVIA) is that they have the instructions on the video preceding each pattern. DVE has more test patterns but is much harder to navigate (and I can't select the Title & Chapter selections with my older DVD player).

I also found that the GetGray Brightness & Contrast patterns give me a much better CR (contrast ratio) with my LCD PJ because GetGray caldisc doesn't use a 50% APL (like the AVIA DVD), which makes the black levels much harder to set for a low contrast LCD PJ like my HC3 backup unit. I also prefer his Color & Tint test pattern compared to the one on AVIA (I have both AVIA & DVE as well as the GetGray DVD).

If you have a CRT display (RPTV or front projector) the GetGray caldisc does not have all of the test patterns needed to properly adjust it (no convergence patterns or "Blooming" patterns needed for 3-gun CRT displays).

You do have to burn your own DVD, however. The files are downloadable Video_TS streams, for easier updating and less costly distribution.

It's easier and faster to use (if you know how to use the patterns - see the Readme instructions on www.calibrate.tv to see if you understand how to use it). The advantage of AVIA and Sound & Vision "Home Theater Tune-Up" (an update to AVIA) is that they have the instructions on the video preceding each pattern. DVE has more test patterns but is much harder to navigate (and I can't select the Title & Chapter selections with my older DVD player).

I also found that the GetGray Brightness & Contrast patterns give me a much better CR (contrast ratio) with my LCD PJ because GetGray caldisc doesn't use a 50% APL (like the AVIA DVD), which makes the black levels much harder to set for a low contrast LCD PJ like my HC3 backup unit. I also prefer his Color & Tint test pattern compared to the one on AVIA (I have both AVIA & DVE as well as the GetGray DVD).

If you have a CRT display (RPTV or front projector) the GetGray caldisc does not have all of the test patterns needed to properly adjust it (no convergence patterns or "Blooming" patterns needed for 3-gun CRT displays).

You do have to burn your own DVD, however. The files are downloadable Video_TS streams, for easier updating and less costly distribution.

Thx for the quick reply!

I'm no A/V expert by any means but do have a limited understanding of calibration.
I have a 52" DLP so this disc sounds like it might be something I would want. I have the Avia disc and have dialed in my picture to a considerably better video display than I had before using it but it seems there could be something that may be a little more precise (maybe this disc)?

Your PM was very helpful. I was skipping the encoding part and just trying to burn the .ts file right to a DVD-R.

Once I got it encoded it was fine. Once again, thank you for taking the time out!

Tim, you're welcome! It took me a little looking to try that combination (nothing else looked right).

jhangler -- If you think you can follow the Readme, then the GetGray caldisc is more accurate.

Hello. I just found this thread and have read many, many posts, but not all. Could you tell me what the advantages of using your disc as compared to Avia and or DVE?

Thx!
I've found that brightness and contrast are set at precise points with this disk. As a result, its easier. With Avia at least setting contrast requires some judgement of "white enough".

If you have a processor such as the iScan, the ability to set lipsync delay is also useful.

I've found that brightness and contrast are set at precise points with this disk. As a result, its easier. With Avia at least setting contrast requires some judgement of "white enough". That's good to know!


If you have a processor such as the iScan, the ability to set lipsync delay is also useful.
Yes, I do have that capability on my DLP. The price seems reasonable enough on this disc so I believe I'll get it.

Are there plans to create an HDTV version of these patterns? For some measurements they might be useful, right? People with HTPC could use them without even burning a DVD... :)

gorman42 -- Unless you're using your HTPC for watching HDTV, it would not be of any use. Calibration involves the entire video chain, from the source DVD to the display.

The current Caldisc is formatted in 16:9 mode (with some minor exceptions that were mastered in 4:3, like the Belle-Nuit pattern). Therefore, it can be used to calibrate HDTV displays and standard (and upconverting) DVD players (as well as in the HD-A1 HD-DVD player or the up-coming Blu-Ray players).

CT_Wiebe, let me get this correctly.

You are saying that if I have an upconverting source (be it a standard DVD, or an HD-DVD), using GG disc will get me fine calibration for HDTV too? The material on the disc, by being upconverted, will work correctly for the HDTV colorspace?

It doesn't make sense to me but I *totally* admit my ignorance, so bear with me... :)

I downloaded the zip file and burned a DVD-R last night using DeepBurner as suggested elsewhere. It worked on my PC and my cheapie CyberHome DVD player in the kids bedroom, but the "good" Pioneer DVD player (DV-656A -- a few years old) screws up. I can navigate the menus, but almost every patter I try and access causes the player to "stop", shutting down into a screen saver. Pressing play to get it to resume throws it into one of the color patterns (the same one every time) regardless of what I was trying to access.

At this point I'm guessing that it is a fault in the processing of the DVD player and not the disk since even a $35 player that is a couple of years newer seems to be able to handle it just fine. However I'm wondering if anyone has seen similar problems and what was the solution, short of spending $100 or $200 on a new upconverting DVD player?

Some older players aren't so good at reading burnt DVDs, and even then can be a bit picky over -R and +R disks, as well over some disk brands and the dye's they use.

Gary

This player has read many DVD's I've authored and burnt over the years. Video editting is a hobby, and I've produced a number of product and business promo disks as well as a moderately complex wedding DVD complete with scene selections and a bonus music video. All have been read without problems.

I'll burn another tonight and try again -- it is certainly possible it is the disk and not the authoring (menu/scene organization).

gorman42 -- No, I didn't say that. Each source has to be calibrated separately. You have to calibrate the entire chain and each source can produce different results.

What I did say, was that you can use the picture resulting from the DVD player calibration as a reference to adjust your HDTV source to give you a better picture.

WAFlowers -- Your experience with your Pioneer DVD player is strange indeed. I'm assuming that you are familiar with burning Video_TS files? I'm not familiar with the DeepBurner software. The fact that it worked with your PC and CyberHome DVD player seems to indicate a problem with your Pioneer player.

With my Nero 7 Ultra (and the previous Nero 6 Ultra), I can't use the normal "Make DVD Video" option (designed to work with *.mpg files) to write the GetGray files to a DVD. I have to use the Nero "Recode DVD-Video" option, which is needed to create a working DVD from the *.VOB format files. Other DVD writer software handles VOB files differently from MPEG files too.

WAFlowers -- Your experience with your Pioneer DVD player is strange indeed. I'm assuming that you are familiar with burning Video_TS files? I'm not familiar with the DeepBurner software. The fact that it worked with your PC and CyberHome DVD player seems to indicate a problem with your Pioneer player.
I'll admit that I'm not familiar with DeepBurner either. And my experience in authoring DVDs is one step removed from the actual Video_TS files; I'm working with audio and video timelines, menus, chapter marks, etc. and the software I use does all the detail work for me.

However, I am familiar with the theory of how a DVD is organized.

If I understand it, the Video_TS directory I obtained in the GetGray zip file must be written as-is to the DVD, without any changes. That is, the contents don't need to be re-interpretted. It appears that this is what DeepBurner did for me.

I agree that it sounds like a problem with the Pioneer player, but I've occasionally burnt a coaster (a disk that is only useful to put under a glass) that works in the PC and/or the bedroom CyberHome player but not the Pioneer. It seems to be more sensitive to bad disks than the others.

As soon as I have an evening at home (forgot that I have some commitments this week) I'll burn another and try again.

Thanks for the advice.

WAFlowers,

You can try using Imgtool Classic (http://www.coujo.de/ib2/index.php?act=module&module=include&incl_name=download) to create a ISO image of the downloaded folder "GETGRAY_CALDISC". Make sure there's both an AUDIO_TS & VIDEO_TS in it. Some players have problems if the AUDIO_TS folder is missing. Then burn it using Imgburn (http://www.imgburn.com/). Two fantastic tools and free too. Hope this helps.

I didn't think about the lack of Audio_TS. I wonder if that is my problem? I'll try reburning with an empty Audo_TS and maybe give your suggested tools a try if that doesn't do the job.

I appreciate the suggestions!

When can I expect a new NTSC version ?

WAFlowers.

Make a data cd of the unzipped getgrey folder.
It plays in dvd drives fine.
Mine does anyway.

Thanks Jeremy. That's what I did and it didn't work. I'll try again.

I just got a Hitachi 50VG825 the other day and decided to give getgray a shot for calibration.

However, I seem to have an oddity.

When doing the brightness/contrast adjustments I can't really make out ANY bars unless the brightness contrast is cranked all the way up, and even then its hard to see.

However using the 5% step gray ramps I was able to adjust contrast/brightness as the readme describes, and it my picture looks much better for it, particularly my Xbox 360.

Other than that, everything was exactly as described (aside from the tests I need tools/factory menu for anyhow.)

Any idea whats wrong with those two menus? Should I be trying a different DVD player perhaps? I have access to a Xbox 360 on the same TV, and I can steal a different progressive scan DVD player off another TV if necessary.

WAFlowers, this may be a dumb question, but are you sure you're finalizing the DVD you create? If you don't, the DVD won't play in some standard DVD players

Kilgore, not a dumb question. It is the sort of mistake many people have made. However, I'm not one of them.

So far I haven't been home to try again (sunset dinner cruise sponsored by my dentist last night; Miata club meet the night before -- I've got too much happening in my life!) but I will this weekend.

Jeremy Duncan -- When there is a real need for an update (and Scott can get to it). So far, there hasn't been much, if anything, that really needs changing. Calibration standards don't change (they're still basically the same as they were 30 years ago).

Do you have a need for something more than what's on the current version?

Burning a 2nd disk using a different program gave me the same results. I'm concluding that my "good" DVD player just won't handle this disk. :(

Maybe there's an OPPO 971 in my future?

CT_Wiebe,

Scott said he was looking at updating the ntsc version.
I would like the rgb color bars on the same page so I could compare their intensities and make them as similiar a intensity as I could.

And is the pal version the release version ?
It still says Beta.
It's been a while now and no problems with the pal version.
Maybe it should be called finished instead of Beta.

Scott mentioned that the latest PAL Beta could be considered as "released", in one of his previous posts. Remember, he does have a "Day Job" :cool:.

Putting all 3 (R, G, & B) color ramps on one page would make them less useable for most calibrators. There is a Multi-Level Color Bars pattern (page 16 of the Readme manual - "Color Bars" in the menu) that can be used for what you are describing. They aren't as comprehensive as a set of color ramps, but can be used (in conjunction with the individual ramps) to see if you've got the colors right at various intensity levels.

I didn't go look it up but I think I addressed the "all ramps on one screen" request a while back. I didn't plan on doing it IIRC, need to check my to-do notes.

PAL is still in Beta because I haven't made teh soundtrack to the lipsync. Since the framerate changed, I have to completely redo it. Obviously it is important to get it perfect, since it is being used to set a delay, so it's tedious to do it. I literally create and edit it at the digital audio single sample level. My apologies for the delay. Too many irons in the fire as they say. I had hoped to finish it last holiday weekend, but ended up having to remake a digital controller circuit and some microprocessor coding (another hobby that turned into a side job :eek: ). Maybe this weekend. I am actually working on it, promise.

Cheers, Scott

OK guys. I've had enough offers to help today I was compelled to move it up on my priority list and get it done. I completed the lipsync audio and have added it to the current PAL Beta.

PLEASE - only if you can check the lipsync pattern, download the current Beta (v1.3). The ONLY thing that is different from beta 1.2 is the addition of sound to the lipsync. I will give it a week-10 days to let anyone report any issues then I will call it final and repost the 1.3 Beta as PAL final. THEN everyone who needs it can download the final version. Otherwise you'll be downloading 2 DVD's that are identical except for the name.

Since PAL frame rates work out in even divisions of the 48kHz audio sample, they are spot on. I do not expect any errors to be seen in this Beta.

Furthermore, I will be uploading 2 versions of the DVD for download:
1. The zipped files including VIDEO_TS\*.* and MISC\*.* to write onto a DVD.
2. An "iso" DVD image.

BOTH options are zipped to conserve bandwidth.

YOU ONLY NEED ONE OR THE OTHER, PLESAE DON'T D/L BOTH. Some people prefer to write their DVD's using a iso image, others find it easier to just burn the folders. Generally speaking it depends on your software and if in doubt, get the files version, not the iso.

Thanks for your patience PAL users. I will post back here when the files are uploaded and ready for access later this evening.

Best,
Scott

OK, PAL Beta 1.3 is up and ready for testing. Again, please unless you *want* to test the lipsync audio, hold off for a few days and this version will become final, then get it. Of course I'd like a few folks to try it to verify it is OK. I can only check in on my only PAL player, which is Windows WinDVD :)

Cheers,
Scott

Are people still getting the OPPO 971 DVD player "jitters" with this GetGray calibration disc?

It's not the disc pe se, it's any dvd that has a looping sequence. This would include Avia pro, DVE Pro as well. The "flicker" would occur when a pattern video sequence finishes and the the next action is to play another video sequence, in this case the same sequence (repeat). But I don't know if Oppo resolved the slow sequence changes, doubt it.

It's not the disc pe se, it's any dvd that has a looping sequence. This would include Avia pro, DVE Pro as well. The "flicker" would occur when a pattern video sequence finishes and the the next action is to play another video sequence, in this case the same sequence (repeat). But I don't know if Oppo resolved the slow sequence changes, doubt it.


AVIA and DVE are fine on my Opo 971...

AVIA and DVE are fine on my Opo 971...Pro versions? They are different.

I just wanted to comment on the disk, since I have had it for a while.
I have to say I love the getgray disk compared to the regular avia and dve. SOOOOO much easier navigation. There may not be the newbie intros and the plethora of patterns, but there is a very nice group of excellent patterns arranged in a very easy to use interface. Just right for quick adjustments on digital displays so you can get back to watching movies.

Thank you.

So, how severe is the "flicker" on the Oppo? Does it make the disc unusable, or is it just a slight annoyance?

Also, since the Oppo has its own picture controls aside from those on the TV, how do you other Oppo users set it up? Do you just leave them at the default and tweak everything on the TV? It seems that it would be hard to get things right with controls in both places, especially when I'd like the TV to also be properly calibrated for inputs other than the DVD player...