As I understand it, the Oppo 971 needs to be tweeked a little on Brightness & Contrast (see the Oppo 971 threads, it depends on which firmware update you have). Basically, you leave the Oppo at its defaults and calibrate your display. Then you go into the Oppo menu, do the recommended adjustments, and then go back to your display and do a final adjustment.

The Oppo 971 adjustments are like a -1 and a -3, but I don't remember which is which (I don't have an Oppo 971, so I haven't been tracking it).

The reported "flicker" seems to be more of an "annoyance" level.

Just a minor comment. For those of us that calibrate for PAL and NTSC it would be useful to have different labels for each disc.

If you let me know which font and size you use, I'd be happy to edit and post them myself.

Tim

Scott/Getgray:

Looked at your patterns on the website. Are you planning to include a "decoder check" for red- or other push issues? This is one item from AVIA that I'm fond of because without doing it, you know, leaving the color set according to the flashing squares on AVIA, results in the color being waaaaaaaaay over saturated even though the squares suggest it is "correct"(though by what standards I couldn't imagine!). :cool:

Let me know if this is in the works.

Thanks,

Just worked on some calibration today... I like this disc WAY more than my AVIA disc. So much easier to navigate around and get to the important stuff. And I like the brightness/contrast patterns much better, too.

One problem I'm having -- I simply cannot get the contrast setting set. The "above white" bars simply will not blend into the background, no matter what combination of brightness and contrast I choose. I can't figure out why this is. The brightness setting is working perfectly -- I'm able to very precisely see where to set that.

My setup -- Samsung HL-S5687, Oppo 971H connected via DVI-HDMI. All digital noise reduction and DNIE turned off. Color temps set to normal (pure white).

Any thoughts?

You may want to check to see if there is some user setting or some service menu setting that sets the white level setting in such a way that it is stopping you from increasing the white level to the point where the the "whiter than white" bars disappear.

I live above a small Circuit City store, and am good friends with all the people there (it's a small town). They had a 32" Samsung HDTV there (don't know if it's the same as yours....probably not). I brought down the GetGray disc to try calibrating it and was surprised to see that the blacks were being seriously clipped and the whiter than white bars were always visible, no matter how high or low we set the contrast and brightness.. Our thought was that there had to be some service menu option that would enable better access and results with the contrast and brightness levels. The same DVD feed was being displayed on a couple of smaller CRT TV's and we were able to calibrate those properly.

A lot of the newer flat panel displays (plasma & LCD) will not let you adjust the Contrast so that the WTW bars "disappear". This is not a problem, since you will definitely not be losing detail on the white end. I've run into this problem too.

The black level crushing, however, requires that both the DVD player and the display have their Black Level reference set correctly (and auto black level control turned off, or other auto controls). There usually are 2 choices (or more) for black reference (they are called by different names by different manufacturers). You have to read the manuals to see what they're called. In some cases, you have to make the setting using the component inputs first, and then swtich to the HDMI/DVI input (the MT700/PE7700 PJs are that way). Also, the DVD player may have to be set while in the Stop mode, in order for the setting to be saved. I've managed to get the black levels set on all of my displays, once I found the right combination of black reference settings.

The ONLY thing that is different from beta 1.2 is the addition of sound to the lipsync. I will give it a week-10 days to let anyone report any issues then I will call it final and repost the 1.3 Beta as PAL final. THEN everyone who needs it can download the final version.Hi Scott! Have there been any significant issues reported so far?
I'm about to begin the "final" calibration (does anything like this exist? ;)) and would like to do it for PAL too. I would be inclined to download the beta 1.3, but if you tell me that it will be final in a few days I might wait in order to save you some bandwidth.

Cheers!

A lot of the newer flat panel displays (plasma & LCD) will not let you adjust the Contrast so that the WTW bars "disappear". This is not a problem, since you will definitely not be losing detail on the white end. I've run into this problem too.
...
This is exactly what I figured -- since I can see all the necessary gradients up to 235, I figure I'm not crushing whites. However, this leaves me with the dilemma that I now have no clue where to set the contrast. All the way up? All the way down? Middle? Maybe just eyeball it and find a level that looks nice while watching a DVD, then re-check the brightness, then leave it alone?

Frankly, with all the talk of how wonderfully configurable the HL-S sets are, and how they can be tweaked very close to perfection with an ISF calibration... I'm tempted to just pay the money and quit worrying about it.

Just a minor comment. For those of us that calibrate for PAL and NTSC it would be useful to have different labels for each disc. No problem good suggestion, I'll make some updated images.

Looked at your patterns on the website. Are you planning to include a "decoder check" for red- or other push issues? Let me know if this is in the works.I really don't care for my multi-level color bar pattern much. I will probably do away with that one and in it's place come up with a decoder check type pattern, which is similar.

Hi Scott! Have there been any significant issues reported so far? None.I'm about to begin the "final" calibration (does anything like this exist? ;)) and would like to do it for PAL too. I would be inclined to download the beta 1.3, but if you tell me that it will be final in a few days I might wait in order to save you some bandwidth.I will be renaming it final and changing the opening screen to reflect same, probably before the weekend is out.

This is exactly what I figured -- since I can see all the necessary gradients up to 235, I figure I'm not crushing whites. However, this leaves me with the dilemma that I now have no clue where to set the contrast. All the way up? All the way down? Middle? Maybe just eyeball it and find a level that looks nice while watching a DVD, then re-check the brightness, then leave it alone?

Frankly, with all the talk of how wonderfully configurable the HL-S sets are, and how they can be tweaked very close to perfection with an ISF calibration... I'm tempted to just pay the money and quit worrying about it.
I think this is an interesting issue that some of the experienced calibrators on the forum could address. I'd like to know the answer myself. There has to be a "right" place I'd think. I don't have a display like this so I can't test/play with it. Jeff (umr) and others would be good folks to answer. But a lot of those guys are not monitoring this thread. I'd recommend you (since you have the display) start a new thread titled something like: "Unable to properly adjust contrast on my Samsung HL-S5687" Then repost these questions. Then the expert calibrators might explain it.

HTH, Scott

No problem good suggestion, I'll make some updated images.

Another thought then. Could you make the labels and the opening menu for the PAL release version of the disc available as a seperate download to save all concerned the bandwidth?

Now that everyone seems to have broadband, no-one seems to care about bandwidth anymore. ;)

Tim

Another thought then. Could you make the labels and the opening menu for the PAL release version of the disc available as a seperate download to save all concerned the bandwidth?

Now that everyone seems to have broadband, no-one seems to care about bandwidth anymore. ;)

Tim
I'm not sure I'm following you, but I will have separate links for the disc image files if that's what you mean. No need to get the whole DVD to get teh MISC folder with the label file. But the opening menu is part of the DVD structure, One will have to get the new Video_TS folder or the iso file to get that.

I think this is an interesting issue that some of the experienced calibrators on the forum could address. I'd like to know the answer myself. There has to be a "right" place I'd think. I don't have a display like this so I can't test/play with it. Jeff (umr) and others would be good folks to answer. But a lot of those guys are not monitoring this thread. I'd recommend you (since you have the display) start a new thread titled something like: "Unable to properly adjust contrast on my Samsung HL-S5687" Then repost these questions. Then the expert calibrators might explain it.

Excellent suggestion. I've created the thread.

I'm not sure I'm following you, but I will have separate links for the disc image files if that's what you mean. No need to get the whole DVD to get teh MISC folder with the label file. But the opening menu is part of the DVD structure, One will have to get the new Video_TS folder or the iso file to get that.

My mistake. I wrongly assumed you could just post an updated vob file and replace it before re-burning the DVD. Thanks for a great product.

I've burned your discs and bought a Spyder TV, and given the number of devices I have to do will save myself a fortune. My local ISF calibrator has even offered to help me if I get stuck!

Tim

GetGray -- RE: jgerry's Samsung HL-S5687 question. I found another thread on this subject and Jeff (umr) had posted a reply here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7822094&&#post7822094.

Claus - Thanks I saw it. I'm sure "this is the hardest set on the planet to calibrate" isn't the answer he was hoping for ;):). But at least my disc helped him find that out.

I'm having problems navigating through the PAL DVD with my Arcam DV-88. I've used a TDK 16x -R disc which I've never had problems with before, and produces really good "test scans" If for example if I want to step through either the 5 or 10% gray windows the next button gets "stuck" - the screen shows that it has received the next command but it stays on the selected chapter. At that stage the player locks up and the only way I can restore control is to eject the disc.

I've burned the disc using Nero 7 from the zipped folders. I'm about to try burning the ISO. Is there anything I should be looking out for or have I stumbled on a compatibility issue?

Tim

The DVD spec is pretty straightforward, and I use pro level authoring software ($10k). So it's unlikely it's a compatibility issue with the DVD structure. In my experience, the issues you describe are related to media/burners. I don't use Nero so I can't offer any help there but you do have to use a UDF file structure. See the first post in this thread for a link to the DVD burning how-to, I think Claus has some Nero pointers there. Also, lower your burn speed. I recommend Taiyo Yuden media available inexpensively at www.rima.com. You can use DVDInfo Pro (google - free) to see who "really" made the TDK discs, TDK didn't. Depending on the individual batch of media it could be different from what you are used to getting good results with. Hope that helps..

Thanks - I've also noticed that there is a firmware update to my drive (It's a LiteOn SHM165P6S and they release about 4 a year), I'll try that. I did search through the thread first and couldn't see any relevant posts.

I've been there and done that regarding compatible media creating scans using discs from the same batch as per the CDR freaks forum and these rate very highly. I think the media code is TT02. I'm away from my desktop at the moment.

I'll keep trying, thanks for the speedy response, and pointing me in the direction of the burning thread. I think I might have uncovered where I went wrong. And I consider myself to be a PC expert...

Tim

Is there any consensus on which of the mainstream calibration discs is the best complement to GetGray, especially in terms of audio calibration? I don't think I need anything more in terms of video calibration, but it would be nice to have some help with the audio portions of the system. Do both Avia and DVE cover that adequately?

The DVD spec is pretty straightforward, and I use pro level authoring software ($10k). So it's unlikely it's a compatibility issue with the DVD structure. In my experience, the issues you describe are related to media/burners. I don't use Nero so I can't offer any help there but you do have to use a UDF file structure. See the first post in this thread for a link to the DVD burning how-to, I think Claus has some Nero pointers there. Also, lower your burn speed. I recommend Taiyo Yuden media available inexpensively at www.rima.com. You can use DVDInfo Pro (google - free) to see who "really" made the TDK discs, TDK didn't. Depending on the individual batch of media it could be different from what you are used to getting good results with. Hope that helps..

I'm in the UK but I'll try to get some Taiyo Yuden media.

1. I've tested this batch and it has never failed to play anything I've burned before either from Nero or Adobe Premiere Pro - it also gets very good scan results (attached).
2. I've been onto the burning thread and tried three methods with Nero, either a direct burn of a Video DVD with the files in the folder, burning your ISO image, or using Nero Recode and I get the same result.

I can navigate by using the original remote (instead of my Pronto) and hold down the next button for about 2 seconds - it doesn't work all the time, but it does about 70% of the time. The search (goto) function for direct chapter selection fails to work.

It appears to be a compatibility issue with the Arcam DV-88, there are some mainstream discs that won't play on the machine. I'll see if there is a firmware update available for my DVD player.

At the end of the day I can use the test patterns I want to, it is just the user interface is very clunky. I will try some alternative media, but I think the issue lies with the player.

Tim

I had a light-bulb moment just after my last post. The player doesn't like the short loop time - it appears that it wants a bigger window to process the command. The workaround is simple. Press pause then next, it works every time. Pressing pause also allows me to directly select a chapter. I've emailed Arcam explaining the issue and asked if there is an update to the firmware I'm using which addresses this issue.

Tim

Is there any consensus on which of the mainstream calibration discs is the best complement to GetGray, especially in terms of audio calibration? I don't think I need anything more in terms of video calibration, but it would be nice to have some help with the audio portions of the system. Do both Avia and DVE cover that adequately?

I prefer DVE. If you swallow the editorial on Avia as a complete novice you won't end up with a well set up system. It really makes me laugh when they say that any old zip-cord will be fine for (analogue) audio interconnects and then 10 minutes later say that you should buy high quality video cables. If the sound isn't going to be degraded then why should the video and vice versa.

There are some test patterns missing on DVE but GetGray more than covers those, and DVE has more in depth analysis of your audio.

Having said that if I was starting out now, I'd just get the GetGray discs - my surround sound processor has all the test tones, sine sweeps and polarity checks etc that I will ever want.

Tim

Great info; thanks!


Having said that if I was starting out now, I'd just get the GetGray discs - my surround sound processor has all the test tones, sine sweeps and polarity checks etc that I will ever want.


Yeah, unfortunately I don't have anything that does that, so I'm stuck buying a disc for it (or buying new hardware, which I'm not eager to do).

Are people still getting the OPPO 971 DVD player "jitters" with this GetGray calibration disc?

Yes, I believe this is a known issue, as mentioned by GetGray. I personally haven't see it on anything else. I do have Avia and DVE, just not the Pro editions.

sharding -- The best Audio Test disc is the Rives Audio Test CD 2 from Rives Audio (http://www.rivesaudio.com/software/TestCD.html). It is much better than DVE for that purpose (DVE has some audio level problems too, my experience, and reports from others). If you look at the first entry in Appendix A of the GetGray Readme document, you will see the same recommendation.

The Rives Audio Test CD 2 also has tracks that are adjusted to work correctly with the Radio Shack Sound Level Meter (the analog version, Cat # 33-4050) -- the levels are adjusted to give a flat reading with that meter.

timmorris -- As I said elsewhere, for Nero 7, you unzip the GetGray files (you get a Video_TS folder). You then set Nero for DVD, go to the Video tab and select "Recode DVD-Video". When the window opens, you "Import" the files from the Video_TS folder and tell it to burn a disc (after it's finished loading the VOB files).

I've had it confirmed by Arcam. The player doesn't like the 1 second loop time in the test patterns. Their suggestion was to buy Avia or DVE!

I've mastered and burned over 30 discs from a batch of 50 using the same media and this is the first disc to cause any problems whatsoever in my player.

I get exactly the same result whether I burn directly from the files or recode as per your instructions. I've even tried downloading the PAL iso.

I'm not saying that the disc isn't to spec, just that my player doesn't like it.

Over to you...

After trying to make my own calibration DVD with Photoshop and Final Cut Pro and getting confused with color shifts between YUV and RGB , I bought the GetGray DVD on Friday.

I stayed up late on Friday, calibrating my Sanyo PLV-Z3 with a Spyder2 Pro and even later on Sunday calibrating again with an Eye One Pro. I stayed up so late because GetGray is addictive. It's so easy to use that I just kept measuring obsessively well into the night (plus I have a yellow/green shift on at 90-100% gray). The disc is much better to use for quick or prolonged calibrations than DVE and Avia.

The easily navigatable test patterns integrate well with Radar's Colorimeter XLS and Spyder2 Pro's Colorimeter or Babelcolor software for the Eye One Pro.

I've written a more detailed review on my blog, Geek with Family (url in my profile).

Thanks for the new toy. I look forward to future development.

GetGray -- Have you thought of developing guided workflow navigation? Like having the 5% Gray Ramps, 20/80 Windows and 10% Gray Windows all in a grouped loop?

The Rives Audio Test CD 2 also has tracks that are adjusted to work correctly with the Radio Shack Sound Level Meter (the analog version, Cat # 33-4050) -- the levels are adjusted to give a flat reading with that meter.



Hey after I read this I thought I would go to my local Radio Shack to get a SLM since they are going out of business near my house. I got it for $30 on sale, then when I got home I realized it was Digital and not analog. Will this still work with the Rives audio test CD2, which I also just bought?

sharding -- The best Audio Test disc is the Rives Audio Test CD 2 from Rives Audio

Does the Rives disc help with calibration of all of the surround channels, or is it just stereo?

Hey after I read this I thought I would go to my local Radio Shack to get a SLM since they are going out of business near my house. I got it for $30 on sale, then when I got home I realized it was Digital and not analog. Will this still work with the Rives audio test CD2, which I also just bought?
That's why I gave the RS part number. The CD will work with the digital version, but it is much harder to read correctly (your eye-brain is much better in averaging the readings, of the analog meter, than the digital readout is). The sound level error corrections are about the same for the 2 versions (see: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=505236).

NOTE: I believe that the digital version also has a semi-analog bar graph on the readout, to show the variations, but it's still harder to read.

sharding -- I haven't had a chance to fire my copy up (and it's packed away right now). I didn't find anything on the Rives web pages that really say how it handles the surround sound channels. Maybe someone who has used it can respond to your question. My receiver has a good auto-setup function (Pioneer's MCACC), so I got it to do verification checking (and to compliment my test software library).

BTW -- we are getting off-topic here, since this thread is about the GetGray calibration disc.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but nobody seems to be taking my problem seriously. Ive followed the instructions to the letter, using media which has proved 100% compatible with my player on every other disc I've burned, but I still find it difficult to navigate the GetGrey disc (even using pause is a bit hit and miss).

It might not be possible to fix it, but it would be nice to be acknowledged rather than just dismissed out of hand. The Arcam DV-88 doesn't like the way that the disc is authored when it comes to the one second repeating loops. I should also add that I've had no problems with the disc in the Primaire DVD player my neighbour has, or in the 3 different computers I've tried it in.

I'm by no means a computer or Home Cinema newbie and I tried lots of troubleshooting before I even bothered posting.

Tim

It might not be possible to fix it, but it would be nice to be acknowledged rather than just dismissed out of hand. The Arcam DV-88 doesn't like the way that the disc is authored when it comes to the one second repeating loops. I should also add that I've had no problems with the disc in the Primaire DVD player my neighbour has, or in the 3 different computers I've tried it in.
I wonder if the problem you are seeing and the problem I'm seeing are related? Sounds like a possibility.

The disks I've burned (multiple, using different programs) cause my Pioneer player to act like I've pressed "STOP" when they hit one of those short loops. I think.

Tim: I wasn't dismissing it. But I don't have a fix for your player. Other than an Oppo that has had some reported blinking between repeats, your's is the first player reported with the problem you describe. well, maybe Flowers Pioneer.

As soon as I get a few spare hours I'll make a version with longer loops on one pattern sequence and let you try it. If it's size isn't bloated too badly and if that fixes the issue I'll release it as a new version.

But the Getgray DVD still works identically to other pro level discs so worst case I'm comfortable knowing that they can be a few rare players that can't handle the DVD spec properly. That wont' help anyone who's player won't handle the quick repeats due to slow command response.

A look at all the things DVD players fail on the Secrets DVD Benchmark website shows that shouldn't be a huge surprise to anyone that some players will have trouble with a technical DVD.

But maybe a slightly longer loop/repeat will cure it. This isn't a quick process to change becasue all chapter (repeat) points change and all navigation has to be trued up to the new timeline. I'm swamped until after July 23 but I will see if I can squeeze it in for a test. Send me a regular email with the subject "Getgray DVD longer repeat tester" so I know who you are and can reply with a download link when ready. Indicate if you are PAL or NTSC in the message. If one of the guys with the Oppo "blink" will do likewise, I'll add them, too and let them test a longer loop. No commitment on timeframe though.

Hows that.

Thanks for the new toy. I look forward to future development.
GetGray -- Have you thought of developing guided workflow navigation? Like having the 5% Gray Ramps, 20/80 Windows and 10% Gray Windows all in a grouped loop?Very glad it's working for you. It was WAY harder to create than I thought it would be when I started, too.

re the sequence/workflow, I have considered it and we have discussed it at least indirectly way way back. The problem is no one's workflow is the same. It's often dictated by their software. Sometimes by habit, opinion, or personality :). One guys uses colorfacts and does it one way, another uses i1Pro and does something slightly different. I made a custom version for someone with a specific menu item for a "quick sequence" for their software. But a general release version won't have it. I'm all for working with any developer to make a custom DVD. Only one has approached me and I incorporated his auto-sequence into the DVD.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but nobody seems to be taking my problem seriously. Ive followed the instructions to the letter, using media which has proved 100% compatible with my player on every other disc I've burned, but I still find it difficult to navigate the GetGrey disc (even using pause is a bit hit and miss).

It might not be possible to fix it, but it would be nice to be acknowledged rather than just dismissed out of hand. The Arcam DV-88 doesn't like the way that the disc is authored when it comes to the one second repeating loops. I should also add that I've had no problems with the disc in the Primaire DVD player my neighbour has, or in the 3 different computers I've tried it in.

I'm by no means a computer or Home Cinema newbie and I tried lots of troubleshooting before I even bothered posting.

TimWe're certainly not "dismissing you out of hand" :o. It's that none of use have had that kind of problem and we (at least I) don't have the Arcam DV-88. I've used my copy of the GetGray DVD on 4 different DVD players (a $50 Daewoo DVDP480, a Panasonic RP91, a Pioneer LVD-919 and a Sony NS75H) and have never had that problem. I did have a "stuttering" problem (with the Sony) at the start of the Brightness and Contrast test patterns, but I found that that was due to the hyper-sensitivity (button pushing) of its remote and the Remote-to-Player response delay, and not the NS75H. I've burned all my Beta and the Final Release versions with Nero 6/7 Ultra, using the "Recode DVD-Video" function on the Video_TS (VOB) files and real cheap 4x DVD-Rs (burned at 2x).

You did mention that Arcam said that their player might have a problem with short duration (1 second = 30 frames, or less) loops. In that case AVIA won't work either, since it also has "short loop" test patterns (DVE uses static patterns, IIRC, for it's basic patterns - their "Zone Plates" also use short loops).

WAFlowers -- I don't remember (if you mentioned it) what model of the Pioneer DVD player that you have.

-------

GetGray beat me to it (a response). He has suggested a solution, if you can wait until he has time to get to it.

Hows that.

I couldn't ask for more. Thanks.

I use PAL & NTSC, but have only burned a PAL disc so far. If NTSC behaves any differently I'll let you know (I'd be surpised if it does).

I've actually found a more usable workaround, and that is to use the auto 5% windows and pause where necessary. Occasionally it doesn't pause, but it does most of the time, so it is usable. Now at least I can get on and calibrate the greyscale on my Lumagen.

My player firmware is up to date, but I have noticed that there is a new firmware update for the drive. I can download an image from the web and burn it to an autoloading CD. Again if it fixes the problem I'll let you know.

I'll also get my hands on some alternative media just in case Arcam are wrong and your initial thoughts are correct. The player is a little long in the tooth now, but the Lumagen compensates for the CUE bug, and does a great job of de-interlacing, scaling and inverse tele-cine that there's no point in replacing it with an upsampling player with HDMI ahead of HD-DVD becoming mainstream. Then I'll go the whole hog and buy whatever Meridian come up with,

Tim

So I was wondering what would be the best colormeter for me to use with this DVD?
By best I mean:
-I'll really only be using it with Front Projection setups
-Easy to use
-Cheapest or most affordable or best deal
-It doesn't have to be the Most accurate, just not the worst accurate.

If a hack needs to be done, I don't mind looking into it.... I read somewhere the Spyder2 can be hacked, but that's about all I know. I figured I better find out what would be best to get before I spend countless hours finding out how to do it and then not get it.


Really I just wanted to know what you all were using with this great DVD. Thanks

Oh and I have a laptop I can use to help with spreedsheets... I don't know if this changes anything.

See the appendix in the pdf for the disc, it lists them (avail on the website (www.calibrate.tv). There is also an interface to the Spyder2? that Bill is working on that uses this DVD. I'm sorry I don't have a link to it. He was ursa but changed his ID to Bear something, I forgot :o

Bill, if you are "listening", check out that appendix and let me kow if you want me to add your software info there.

See the appendix in the pdf for the disc, it lists them (avail on the website (www.calibrate.tv). There is also an interface to the Spyder2? that Bill is working on that uses this DVD. I'm sorry I don't have a link to it. He was ursa but changed his ID to Bear something, I forgot :o

Bill, if you are "listening", check out that appendix and let me kow if you want me to add your software info there.
Scott - Thanks for the invite/opening! :)

The product's name is CalMAN and you can check it out at www.datapopuli.com/ht/index.html

We will be coming out of beta here SOON (not months and not weeks) with support for the Spyder2 in all of its glory. The product was designed with an eye towards the GetGray calibration disc (yes, Scott has given me an honorific in the end credits, too), and it will be the only package that will offer both 11 point and 21 point grayscale (only 11 point with the initial release, though).

Scott was nice enough to include 5% grayscale patterns in his disc, and with the increased number of measurement points, you get a much more statistically valid set of measurements to use for some things like gamma modeling. It also allows you to see in much more granular of detail what is going on with some of the kinks that many displays have.

Oh, yeah, in addition to the Spyder2, we will also be supporting the X-rite DTP-94, Sencore ColorPro and GretagMacbeth EyeOne Pro with later releases (the latter two are in alpha right now).

Final thought: I HIGHLY and VOCALLY recommend Scott's disc, and if one is curious about some of the reported issues with "Brand X" (AVIA), you may find this interesting (registration required):

http://www.datapopuli.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18

I will have to beg folks pardon if the exact issues with AVIA's grayscale patterns have been posted before. Okay, enough of a plug. Back to your regularly scheduled discussion... :)

Later,
Bill

Bill, I was just about to post your new AVS name, when I saw your reply (you're now up to 5,225 total posts). I got a chuckle out of your forum "rules". I think you got the point across. BTW, your web site is shown as "Under Construction" in the AVS Members List (left over from your previous "handle"?).

I agree entirely with your assessment of this threads subject :cool:.

OK, now we can go "back to your regularly scheduled discussion . . ." :D

Let me get this straight. It doesn't matter what Spyder2 I get..... SpyderTV, SpyderTV Pro, Spyder2Pro, Spyder2Pro studio, Spyder2Plus, Spyder2Suite or Spyder2Express.... they'll all work with the GetGray DVD and CalMAN software for a front projector? After checking around this seems to be the only reasonable ($) way to go. Right?

I'm really liking the price of the Spyder2 Express! I hope this one would work.

Let me get this straight. It doesn't matter what Spyder2 I get..... SpyderTV, SpyderTV Pro, Spyder2Pro, Spyder2Pro studio, Spyder2Plus, Spyder2Suite or Spyder2Express.... they'll all work with the GetGray DVD and CalMAN software for a front projector? After checking around this seems to be the only reasonable ($) way to go. Right?

I'm really liking the price of the Spyder2 Express! I hope this one would work.

Yes the S2 express does work with CalMAN because I have tested it. The meter in all the current ColorVision packages are the same S2.

The SpyderTV does come with software of its own which is useful for performing a base-level calibration, but the sensors are the same.

If you search for s2fly and spyderTV you'll find a small piece of software which will allow you to take readings and a spreadsheet which will turn them into gamma and rgb curves.

I thought of looking into Bill's software but he asks for $100 and doesn't explain on his page what you are getting for the money - no screen shots etc. Edit: I've just been back to his web page and it has changed since I last looked. If you are going to buy calman just get the Spyder2 Express.

Tim

Let me get this straight. It doesn't matter what Spyder2 I get..... SpyderTV, SpyderTV Pro, Spyder2Pro, Spyder2Pro studio, Spyder2Plus, Spyder2Suite or Spyder2Express.... they'll all work with the GetGray DVD and CalMAN software for a front projector? After checking around this seems to be the only reasonable ($) way to go. Right?

I'm really liking the price of the Spyder2 Express! I hope this one would work.
The caveat to this: make sure you get new stock. Some hardware vendors have old stock on-hand, and a digital front projector owner wants the "universal sensor" that started going into retail packages this past fall on the PRO, and a bit later on other models. However, this is advice I have dished out numerous times in the STV review thread.

As for screen shots, if you register for my forum, you will see several people's screen shots of what the app looks like. If you want to go the free route, that's your choice. One thing I would offer up, though, is that you get support using our software, an upgrade path if you want to try a new sensor, and we always listen to feature requests. In fact, DTP-94 support was added at the request of a potential user.

Please come find me at the forum, above, or via PM (or hit Derek up, as well) to discuss the product further. We don't need to pollute Scott's thread too much more with a discussion that is OT in so far as the GetGray disc is concerned.

Later,
Bill

WAFlowers -- I don't remember (if you mentioned it) what model of the Pioneer DVD player that you have.
It is a Pioneer DV-656A. Decent for it's time, but that was a few years ago.

I've also got a cheapie Cyberhome in the bedrooms that plays the disk perfectly! Go figure.

GetGray beat me to it (a response). He has suggested a solution, if you can wait until he has time to get to it.
I can wait.

Bill, any chance of an OS X version of CalMAN ?

FYI, I sent Tim a version with some repeat lengths changed. We'll see how it goes. I don't have much in the way of high expectations. If a player can't obey chapter point changes quickly, I don't think lengthening the video segment will cure it, but it might. Depends on the casue of the players delay. Nothing I can do will improve a players "brain". BTW, the PAL repeating pattern lengths (on the PAL disc everyone has) are 50 full frames, or 2 seconds. 2 seconds should be plenty for a DVD to be ready for a next chapter navigation command, IMHO. Too long really. But I've lengthened them slightly to see if it helps the particular Arcam that can't handle it.

After I see how that does, I'll see how similar changes do in NTSC. I have 2 testers for the NTSC with an Oppo, no more needed.

Are you sure?

I haven't seen anything...

Tim

Bill, any chance of an OS X version of CalMAN ?
If there is sufficient demand for it, then we can look into it. The major initial issue is the hardware connection side. If we can get that going, then there is a chance. However, if Office for Mac has VBA problems, then it is most likely a definite no-go. I used to do HyperCard and AppleScript scripting once upon a time, but re-doing the entire code base in the latest Apple format will take a significant commitment from a number of users to greenlight THAT level of effort.

I'm sure you guys have heard the drill, but here it is anyway: For a start we would have to buy hardware and software just to get development platforms to use. Then we would need to have additional demand on top of that to get us a return on the labor. I know, it's the same mantra as the "big guys" use. :( However, that does not make it any less real. Essentially, we would need at least 20 HARD commitments to get started, and the earliest I could promise our being able to look into it would be in the late July timeframe.

Feel free to start topics to gather support, though. I am happy to try to meet demand, if it is there and feasible to do so. Threads in my forum and/or the Mac area here seem most appropriate to pursue this line of inquiry.

Later,
Bill

Are you sure?

I haven't seen anything...

TimI just checked and resent. Your server is accepting the message. After that, can't say. See PM with details..

PAL Users:

The PAL version is now considered production. The production version is up and available on the website. No errors or outstanding issues remain on the current beta.

Thanks for your patience.
Scott

Does the Rives disc help with calibration of all of the surround channels, or is it just stereo?

It is a stereo CD, but you could I suppose engage 5 or 7 channel stereo mode and send signals to any of your speakers. That was a couple of years ago when I wrote that review for Rives I almost forgot about that one. Thanks CT for posting that link. I have learned a lot about bass and room acoustics since then. I know off topic. :)

Hi Guys,

I have DVE, Avia and now GetGray, My question Is, why are they Different, for eg. whit DVE, I get the whole screen with maybe with in 1% both vertical and Horizontal, yet with GetGray, I get Vetical spot on but Horizontal is out by about 3%, going by the calibration on the screen.?

Peter

Peter, it's been a while since I looked at DVE geometry, but I recall it being off center by some amount of pixels. I believe (but am not sure and am unable to check right now) that Avia is accurately centered. I do not know about scott's disc geometry accuracy, he could speak to that. Do Avia and getgray agree? I would expect them to, but again I don't know and can't check now as I'm traveling. Hope that helps.

Do Avia and getgray agree?

Yes they do.

I have both and my HTPC is set for 1:1 mapping and I get zero overscan with both discs.

Ok, I downloaded the GetGray files and unzipped them on the hard drive (don't know why, just thought it was the then to do).

I have a Dell with a DVD burner in it; but have not used it in years (the burner). And hardly ever use the player.

I do not think I have software to do the job? I have no idea?

Real Player 10.0
Windows Media Player 10.0
Easy CD Creator Basic 5.2
Sonic MyDVD 4.0

I guess I need some DVD Burner freeware, or something to burn a DVD so I can play in on the TV-DVD?

Any suggestions before I go get me a hammer?

Ordered my Disc this morning...

Ok, I downloaded the GetGray files and unzipped them on the hard drive<snip>Any suggestions before I go get me a hammer?Go to this thread and repost, they will help. No DVD burning how-to's here, please.

DVD Burning Help and how-to thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=613686)

When will the version 1.3 for Pal be available for download? Right now I can download version 1.1 but beta 1.3 doesn't seem to be available to me.

When will you make a disc for HD-DVD? much needed right now.

When will the version 1.3 for Pal be available for download? Right now I can download version 1.1 but beta 1.3 doesn't seem to be available to me.Bruno: PAL production is done and avail on the website. There are no beta links there anymore. If you don't see the production version description, then your browser or ISP has the old page cached.

The PAL production version was named version 1.1 simply to be in sync with the current NTSC production version. Since they are identical other than video formats, I kept the version numbers the same. There is actually a navigation error on NTSC version 1.1 but so far no one has found it, so NTSC will go to version 1.2 soon. Not to worry it's not something that affects the performance and you have to know where it is to replicate it. So they'll get out of sync anyway :(

When will the version 1.3 for Pal be available for download? Right now I can download version 1.1 but beta 1.3 doesn't seem to be available to me.
As long as HD DVD is using the mpeg-2 codec the current disc should work fine with it. It is mpeg-2 and will engage the same decoder a HD stream would. With the exception of a shapness pattern the rest of the pattenrs will work fine at lower resolution. Red is red (180-16-16) whether it's 480 or 1024 and it will upscale perfectly just as it currently does for a 720 device.

Blu-Ray is another issue. My understanding is it's also using mpeg-2 for what's been released to date, but the Samsung player won't play burned BRD's. BR is too raw for me to be investing in software and hardware to shoot at a moving target IMO. Since my disc does not have interlacing and scaling test patterns (on purpose) it's current format would be fine, too. But way too expensive to have stamped in BR format right now. If SOny dosen't do better than what's been reported so far, no BR disc will be needed anyway. But let's not get off on that tangent on this thread, there are plenty of existing threads covering that and a whole forum for it.

I have considered a set of patterns for color and tint using the other filters (red and green), which would allow one to compensate for a bad decoder.
I'd like to see those included too.

This may be a dumb question, but...

I'm using the Getgray calibration DVD to calibrate my Benq 8720. The video sources are all coming through the HDMI switching of a Denon 4306. These include an Oppo 971, an HTPC, a SA8300HD DVR and an Xbox 360. The simple question is what video levels should I calibrate the projector to? 16-235 or 0-255? They are all coming through the one HDMI connection, so I will be getting HD (0-255) and DVD (16-235) on the same HDMI cable. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

Kerry

The simple question is what video levels should I calibrate the projector to? 16-235 or 0-255? They are all coming through the one HDMI connection, so I will be getting HD (0-255) and DVD (16-235) on the same HDMI cable. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.


Simple question, but no simple answer. You really have two choices, either:

A. Optimize for one format, DVD or HD, and live with the way it looks for the other.

B. Calibrate to "compromised" settings that are acceptable for both but optimised for neither.

I'd suggest reading Chris Wiggles' source setup guide for the longer answer.

EDIT: I'm assuming the BENQ doesn't have multiple calibration memories that you can assign to the HDMI input, which would allow you to calibrate for both sources.

jvincent -- According to Art's review (www.projectorreviews.com) the BenQ 8720 has 3 user settable memories, so Kerry W shouldn't have a problem calibrating for the 2 different source types and saving the separate settings.

I have a question regarding the calibration disc.

I have a PAL tv which i mainly use to output NTSC Region 1 dvds.

Is there an option to calibrate both the PAL and the NTSC output on a tv?

Most European tvs do infact carry both standards PAL and NTSC.

Simple question, but no simple answer. You really have two choices, either:

A. Optimize for one format, DVD or HD, and live with the way it looks for the other.

B. Calibrate to "compromised" settings that are acceptable for both but optimised for neither.

I'd suggest reading Chris Wiggles' source setup guide for the longer answer.

EDIT: I'm assuming the BENQ doesn't have multiple calibration memories that you can assign to the HDMI input, which would allow you to calibrate for both sources.

Actually, this is even more nuanced of a question: what source material is coming in via the HTPC? If it is DVD, and you use VMR, then you want to calibrate the PC input to video levels. If you use overlay, it depends upon your graphics card and driver level. If you then also want to use the PC as a picture viewer...

In other words, just because it is a PC does not mean that setting the projector should be automatically calibrated to PC levels.

Later,
Bill

Hey guys... None of these questions relate to the GetGray calibration DVD. PLEASE, start a new tread on how to use a calibration disc to set your display X, PC Y, or inut device Z. Remember, if you really want the answer, a whole lot more people who may answer it are watching the calibration forum (where you'd ask via a new thread) than are watching this thread.

Just because you are using the GetGray calibration DVD to do your calibration dosen't make it a relavant question for this thread. If you want to discuss a pattern, a level, a feature request, etc. That's for here. If you want to know how to calibrate your particular chain, start a new thread.

Thanks, Scott

Is anyone working on an HD-DVD version of this or any cal disc?

Scott, I don't agree that MPEG-2 is MPEG-2. Well, that may be true but the decoders in the Toshiba HD-DVD player employ different algorithms based on the source being SD or HD. I know for a fact that different color matrices are used. You also have the scaling path differences that need to be accounted for.

Ken

At this point I respectfully disagree and suggest asking someone else then. dr1394 would be my recommendation. They are still using 16-235 digitial YCbCr Mpeg2 streams. Ron (dr1394) just posted some notes on his HD test images thread. He's a HD mpeg expert, does it for a living. He still used the YCbCr equivilants of 16-235. My images, while SD in resolution, still produce digital YCbCr decoded colors, same as a HD image would. I believe it's what the display does with those digital values that transform into the actual different color displayed and related to the different gamuts. It's not like a HD image uses different digital values for red for example. So teh HD-DVD may employ different scaling algorithms to the stream but it shoudl use the identical decoder from the DVD. I don't have one but presume it's digital out so it's still YCbCr out, same values as SD, just more of them. And I contend a red box dosent' need high resolution. Exactly why you can use a 480 DVD on a 720 (HD capable gamut) display. Now if they have higher bit depth (vs 8-8-8), then there's a chance for a difference due to the YCbCr to digital RGB rouding errors, but I doubt it would be significant, or use a different decoder.

So the entire chain is still presented with the same digital values from the DVD, regardless of resolution.

In the case of sharpenss, alignment patterns, etc, clearly the 480 pattern will not be the same as a 1080 encoded pattern. But colors and grayscale should make no difference. Unless the player has a super-duper detect algorithm that employs a different decoder if it senses a HD DVD vs a std. DVD. But I bet it dosen't.

But I'm certaintly open to correction, what in that explanation do you think I'm wrong on?

In any event, I am not prepared to invest in the technology to make one, yet.

Best, Scott

The big difference between SD and HD is the color matrix for RGB to/from YCbCr conversion. SD uses Rec. 601, and HD uses Rec. 709. For color bars, the YCbCr values will change.

SD (Rec. 601) 75% color bars
White Yellow Cyan Green Magenta Red Blue Black
Y 180 162 131 112 84 65 35 16
Cb 128 44 156 72 184 100 212 128
Cr 128 142 44 58 198 212 114 128

HD (Rec. 709) 75% color bars
White Yellow Cyan Green Magenta Red Blue Black
Y 180 168 145 133 63 51 28 16
Cb 128 44 147 63 193 109 212 128
Cr 128 136 44 52 204 212 120 128

Here's an image that shows what happens when the wrong matrix is used to decode 75% color bars:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=32137

Otherwise, everything is the same. You could author your disc in HD by just using the correct RGB to YCbCr conversion and scaling everything to 1920x1080 or 1280x720.

Ron

The big difference between SD and HD is the color matrix for RGB to/from YCbCr conversion. SD uses Rec. 601, and HD uses Rec. 709. For color bars, the YCbCr values will change.

SD (Rec. 601) 75% color bars
White Yellow Cyan Green Magenta Red Blue Black
Y 180 162 131 112 84 65 35 16
Cb 128 44 156 72 184 100 212 128
Cr 128 142 44 58 198 212 114 128

HD (Rec. 709) 75% color bars
White Yellow Cyan Green Magenta Red Blue Black
Y 180 168 145 133 63 51 28 16
Cb 128 44 147 63 193 109 212 128
Cr 128 136 44 52 204 212 120 128

Here's an image that shows what happens when the wrong matrix is used to decode 75% color bars:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=32137

Otherwise, everything is the same. You could author your disc in HD by just using the correct RGB to YCbCr conversion and scaling everything to 1920x1080 or 1280x720.

Ron
Thanks Ron. Might do that. But I'd have to modify the C program that I use to convert tga to yuv. Have the Rec 709 formula handy? Something for my to-do list.

I can see where it would be possible that a (the) HD-DVD player would use the SD matrix if it sensed a SD DVD. Be hard to tell without testing and every player could do it differently I suppose. Have to just do HD DVD one day to avoid any ambiguity.

Scott

Guys,

You're right that every player could do it differently.

When you're calibrating you need to run the test signal through every circuit and algorithm (analog and digital)

How many examples of processors and players are there that clip values or select the wrong matrix or any number of other mishaps?

The HD-DVD player is using different algorithms and circuits for SD vs. HD DVD's.

If possible you would want to have the test patterns encoded with the various codecs as well. Each decoder will have its own peculiarities.

Ken

Yep. It will be ugly for a while I expect. Makes an accupel look nice(r) :D

Thanks Ron. Might do that. But I'd have to modify the C program that I use to convert tga to yuv. Have the Rec 709 formula handy? Something for my to-do list.

I can see where it would be possible that a (the) HD-DVD player would use the SD matrix if it sensed a SD DVD. Be hard to tell without testing and every player could do it differently I suppose. Have to just do HD DVD one day to avoid any ambiguity.

Scott
Unless the player has issues, it should use BT.601 for regular DVDs and BT.709 for HD DVDs encoded at 720p or 1080p. People are reporting success burning DVD+R discs with a HD DVD filesystem layout, and the HD-A1 is detecting this as an HD DVD and playing the content fine. Makes in easier, since people wouldn't need HD DVD burners to make the HD DVD test disc. The 709 transform is:

Y = Coef. for red*Red+Coef. for green*Green+Coef. for blue*Blue
Cb = (Blue-Y)/(2-2*Coef. for blue)
Cr = (Red-Y)/(2-2*Coef. for red)

Coef. for red=0.2125
Coef. f Green=0.7154
Coef. f Blue=0.0721

Go to this thread and repost, they will help. No DVD burning how-to's here, please.

DVD Burning Help and how-to thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=613686)

Just burned my DVD of GetGray, and the gray patterns alone have been well worth it. Is there a thread/site where I could learn more about how to utilize the other patterns?

Download the readme file on the calibrate.tv site.

Yes I have that, thank you. I guess I mean the patterns as they relate to service menu settings. The readme doesn't discuss that aspect.

None of the calibration DVDs discuss that aspect. You have to read the other threads for that information (I believe that umr discusses that issue, but I can't put my finger on the link rght now).

Each display uses different names (and control locations) anyway, so there are no universal "instructions".

The big difference between SD and HD is the color matrix for RGB to/from YCbCr conversion. SD uses Rec. 601, and HD uses Rec. 709. For color bars, the YCbCr values will change.

SD (Rec. 601) 75% color bars
White Yellow Cyan Green Magenta Red Blue Black
Y 180 162 131 112 84 65 35 16
Cb 128 44 156 72 184 100 212 128
Cr 128 142 44 58 198 212 114 128

HD (Rec. 709) 75% color bars
White Yellow Cyan Green Magenta Red Blue Black
Y 180 168 145 133 63 51 28 16
Cb 128 44 147 63 193 109 212 128
Cr 128 136 44 52 204 212 120 128

Here's an image that shows what happens when the wrong matrix is used to decode 75% color bars:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=32137

Otherwise, everything is the same. You could author your disc in HD by just using the correct RGB to YCbCr conversion and scaling everything to 1920x1080 or 1280x720.

Ron

Why would he need to scale it ?
Wouldn't just adapting the new Rec. 709 be enough ?
A question for Scott now.
Are you going to put up a new .iso for download using Rec. 709, and will it be a free upgrade ?

YCbCr is Component cable, right ?
Is Rec. 709 component nessessary to calibrate all high definition monitors even if they don't use component cable ? Because I would use the Rec. 601 Getgray disk to calibrate a Dell BD notebook which doesn't use component cable to the notebook lcd.

> Are you going to put up a new .iso for download using Rec. 709,

No plans at this time. I don't have a pro level authoring tool for HD-DVD and I'm pretty sure mine won't compile a HD-DVD. Plus, to get around clipping issues with consumer encoders and authoring tools, I'm having to use custom programmed bits and pieces along the way. It's those details that make this disc as accurate as it is. We can thank dr1394 for that, would not have done it without his help. Authoring the DVD was my forte, dr1394 is the mpeg expert.

> and will it be a free upgrade ?

No, it would represent a complete re-do, really a different disc, I'd start it as a different project. Not like the current one is very expensive :).

> YCbCr is Component cable, right ?

No, it's "digital component" if you will. YPbPr is analog component. See:
http://www.answers.com/topic/ycbcr

> Is Rec. 709 component nessessary to calibrate all high definition monitors even if they don't use component cable ?

Depends on who's doing the RGB conversion and where.

> Because I would use the Rec. 601 Getgray disk to calibrate a Dell BD notebook which doesn't use component cable to the notebook lcd.

I'm no HTPC person, but generally, in the case of a PC, you'd have to tell it which RGB transform it was supposed to be using if you were calibrating for a 709 output I suppose. Like a standalone player, you may not get the option to tell it what RGB transform to use when decoding a SD DVD. I presume it would be a software decoder so it would depend on the software. The YCbCr values on a SD and a HD-DVD disc are the same. That's what's on the DVD. I dont' know what's on BD material right now, haven't been keeping up. It's what the device does with that info when converting to RGB that is unknown. If it sees it's a SD DVD and automatically applies a SD R601 RGB transform to it, then it would be off for the HD colorspace.

Displaying the (6 large) color bars, I get what looks to be some sort of edge enhancement. It is very obvious between red/blue and two of the colors in the middle (one being magenta). I am using 480i from a Pioneer dv-696 into a Vantage-HD.

Is this test pattern a good candidate when looking for edge enhancement or am I seeing something different? Anyone else noticed this?

are you wearing corrective lenses ?? sounds like chromatic aberations...

:cool:

The transition from one color to another is not clean (from one pixel to the next). Instead there is what looks like a raised area, maybe 10 pixels wide on a 720p display. It varies. I think magenta/? was the worst followed by red/blue.

Can anyone identify this 'artifact'?

chroma delay?

I expect what you are describing and the transition you are seeing is an encoding artifact. It's inheret in hard color edge transitions in mpeg2. The transitions are done at 16 pixel boundaries to minimize the artifact, but it's worse between some colors than others. It's not unique to my disc, it's in all of them. Some worse. You can't get 1:1 hard edged pixel color changes. We discussed this way back during the initial development of the DVD IIRC. It's why you don't see perfect edge boundaries on the blinking color/tint boxes for example.

What program should be used to record the DVD either freeware or cheap and also what media is best to copy onto

Media type all depends on your drive and player really. I really favour Lite-On drives (they OEM Sony Vaio desktop drives) as they tend to read and write very well with even the dodgyest of Media, and release firmware updates on a regular basis to improve compatibility with new media. They are particularly good at making an image of copy-protected DVDs so you can leave the original disc in a DVD wallet and stick a software image on a USB 2.0 drive. I've always had good luck with TDK media (which isn't actually made with them - there are only a very small number of companies that actually manufacture the dye substrate. Some on-line vendors will actually tell you the media code on the discs that they are selling. My "TDK" discs use TTH02 media, which I've always had good luck with. My in-car nav system (BMW) is notoriously fussy and I've never had a problem. Nero is pretty good, and quite often you get a cut down version thatwith the drive that you can upgrade for peanuts. Once you have a licence version upgrades come out every couple of years for about $20 or $30. The current version of Nero is incredibly powerful you get an entire application suite for peanuts.

Tim

What program should be used to record the DVD either freeware or cheap and also what media is best to copy onto
Taiyo Yuden DVD-R, available cheap from www.rima.com. For other buring questions, see this thread: (Buring Howto Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=613686) ), also linked in post #1 here.

OK, now that the disc has been out a while, what patterns are experienced folks *not* using? I don't use the multi-level bars, or the frequency bursts personally.

GetGray, I know you have probably answered this but I can't seem to find it, so let me ask again. Why would your brightness pattern be more accurate for a digital projector then DVE or AVIA? I get a slightly different setting with all of them.

I recently tried the Contrast pattern from this disc on a 2005 Sony SXRD REAR projection 50". For some reason no matter how high or low I moved the contrast setting on the TV, I could not get ANY of the bars to disappear. The overall picture got brighter/dimmer as I moved the contrast control up/down, but all bars moved up/down in brightness accordingly and none would disappear into the background, so there was no way I could use this pattern to find the proper contrast setting.

Anyone else experience something like this? What could cause it? This was with an upconverting DVD player connected via HDMI. I do NOT think it is the disc itself because it works great on other sets I've calibrated like the Ruby VW-100 SXRD front pj.

Any ideas?

lovingdvd: some digital displays won't hard clip, but may just colorshift. Try looking for that. It may be very subtle. It's easier when there's hard clipping (as you've found out) because it's really obvious, but compression/colorshifting is a lot harder to see. It's certainly possible that you can go full to 100% on white level without any shifting or clipping at all, but I would be skeptical about that before really exhausting your hunt for colorshifting.

GetGray, I know you have probably answered this but I can't seem to find it, so let me ask again. Why would your brightness pattern be more accurate for a digital projector then DVE or AVIA? I get a slightly different setting with all of them.
Cause mine's right?? Just kidding.

I think mine is better becasue:
1. It has BTB info that at least one other popular DVD does not have
2. Its BTB info is "animated" making it easier to see. The "other" popular DVD has BTB but not animated. My DVD has the best of both worlds, BTB info and moving bar elements.
3. The lighter horizontal bar at the bottom is there intentionally. It's there to further give a visual cue as to where a moving bar is becasue you can see that no matter the setting.
4. The levels are perfect, spot-on and documented, in writing and the levels are on teh pattern. You *know* what you are looking at. I think with some of the other patterns there is some ambiguity as to what you are supposed to see and not supposed to see (i.e. do I adjust to see 2 bars?, 1 bar?, no bar?, etc.) New users are often asking in reference to the other DVD's. Mine is more clear I believe. And I documented it. You adjsut to see 0% and not below which is more intuative. One can adjust to see a small percentage below black but that's a personal preference.

See what I mean?

What patterns am I not using ?

I use these;
Brightness and contrast

Color Patterns;
Color and Tint
Color Bars
Color Ramps

Miscellaneous;
Alignment and Overscan, for the sharpness calibration.

The rest I do not use.

One questioned, can this cal disc actual be used to check and improve the sharpness of a 720P DLP TV? This is assuming that you have the service code manual to make the adjustments.

bnw

One questioned, can this cal disc actual be used to check and improve the sharpness of a 720P DLP TV? There is a sharpness pattern. And some feel the frequency bursts are good for checking that as well. The shaprness pattern is fairly simple, it's a multi-width-line grid on the alignment pattern.

Why do the rgb values obtained from either printscreen into paint or colorcop not correspond to either the 16 or 235 levels on the Brightness and Contrast test.

I have used Theatertek and wmp 10 via VMR and neither produce the proper RGB values. wmp 10 produces 19,18,18 for the 16 point and 240,239,239 for the 235 point. I have seen theatertek produce results even further away than these.

If these RGB levels are not correct then the values sent to the display are not correct also?

Can someone shed some light on why this is happening, and how to fix it.

What videocard and video drivers are you using? In my experience with an NVIDIA 6800GT AGP card with 77.77 drivers, I get near-perfect RGB response with all video settings at default (0) in TheaterTek. I did not use any post-processing - no FFDShow and no NVPP. Just DXVA and VMR9.

I am using an ATI card, putting an NVIDIA into my htpc made it very unstable.

Hey guys, this is a HTPC question. Or a separate thread. It's a huge subject and one that could bloom into way off-topic. For some information about it we had some discussion eatly in the long thread. To view the levels I disect the original file from the inside out decoding it's native YCbCr values back to RGB. Screen catures are dependent on a bunch of things, none of which are "GetGray calibration DVD" specific. The HTPC forum would be one of the better places to ask. I'm sure you can get help quick there. Bob is one of the folks who worked closely with me on this DVD in the beginning and he's one of the moderators there.

Thanks, Scott

Just burned the GetGray DVD and gave it a shot. Simple, easy to use and to the point.

The Brightness pattern is great! The Contrast pattern however, does not work with my display. I own a Samsung HL-S5688W and regardless of the contrast setting, all bars are visible. Not sure if this is due to the DLP tech...

Any ideas?

Just read a previous post....

It's not the DLP per se, because all my DLP devices will "clip" the above white bars so they disappear. Seems to just be a mfgr's firmware implementation. But glad you found the previous answer anyway. I shoudl update the "manual" to reflect this point.

yeah some digitals will clip, some will colorshift. Some rare ones perhaps will do neither in which case a maximum setting is appropriate, but I-ve not runinto such a display yet, but im sure somewhere out there...

You know, not to get off on a tangent, but if it dosent' clip the information, then it's still decoding a difference. I mean if it's not clipping, then it's not raising the contrst to where the say 240 information is no longer different than the 235 which in theory it should be. If a difference can be seen between 235 and 2% above, then the set isn't using its full bandwidth to produce white. On the other hand, if say 2 colors were still below saturation/clipping, while the 3rd maxed out, that woudl explain a colorshift. And maybe the firmware has a ceiling for any of the 3 colors. I wonder if the grayscale was perfect on such at set (at 100%) if it would then clip the bars. If not, then it's essentiall showing PC levels, or some portion, above video white. Maybe...

Just burned the GetGray DVD and gave it a shot. Simple, easy to use and to the point.

The Brightness pattern is great! The Contrast pattern however, does not work with my display. I own a Samsung HL-S5688W and regardless of the contrast setting, all bars are visible. Not sure if this is due to the DLP tech...

Any ideas?


What do you have the gamma set to? Did you change it to 0? Try changing it to 2 or 4 (I think default is 4 on the HLS) and recalibrate. I found with my HL-P4674W that 0 was horrible, and that full bandwidth didnt appear to be utilized (I had the same issue as you as the set clearly showed values over 235, and user menu contrast would do nothing for it and would leave 235 kinda gray, and 255 the white I wanted).

That being said, setting the gamma back up will tend to show color decoder issues and grayscale issues which will require calibrating the CCA's primary and secondary color targets along with grayscale fine tuning.

-pd

What do you have the gamma set to? Did you change it to 0? Try changing it to 2 or 4 (I think default is 4 on the HLS) and recalibrate. I found with my HL-P4674W that 0 was horrible, and that full bandwidth didnt appear to be utilized (I had the same issue as you as the set clearly showed values over 235, and user menu contrast would do nothing for it and would leave 235 kinda gray, and 255 the white I wanted).

That being said, setting the gamma back up will tend to show color decoder issues and grayscale issues which will require calibrating the CCA's primary and secondary color targets along with grayscale fine tuning.

-pd

Tried 0 (film), 1 (video), 2 (graphics), 4 (oem), 5 (oem) and settled on 4.
This, however, did not change anything in the TV's ability to utilise the contrast pattern.

Tried 0 (film), 1 (video), 2 (graphics), 4 (oem), 5 (oem) and settled on 4.
This, however, did not change anything in the TV's ability to utilise the contrast pattern.


I am going to calibrate a friends HLS here in the next week or so, I will let you know what I find.

-pd

I am going to calibrate a friends HLS here in the next week or so, I will let you know what I find.

-pd

Much appreciated!

Have anyone tried this disc on a Oppo 970?

It seems that on each of the test patterns, as it displays for a few secs and then jumps back to the start of the same pattern, the display jumps during each of the repeat. I have a Pio DV79 and a Denon 2900 and it does not seem to have this issue. Hopefully someone else with this disc and test it and see if you see the same problem. Not sure if there is anything that can be done to prevent this behaviour?

Also I am hoping that a cross hatch pattern can be added to the list of test patterns on this disc. There should be at least be 8-9 rows of crosses so that we can be see the sharpness over the whole screen and decide how to optimise the optics.

Oliver

Yes, I agree a cross hatch pattern consisting of several (preferrably at least 30 rows or more) would be great. Would be very handy for testing convergence of the Ruby and other 3 panel displays...

re cross hatch: I think a cross hatch full pattern might be more useful than the frequency sweeps. I will add that to my list.

re Oppo: The flicker on that unit is a known issue with that player.

re cross hatch: I think a cross hatch full pattern might be more useful than the frequency sweeps. I will add that to my list.

re Oppo: The flicker on that unit is a known issue with that player.

Did the longer sequence test u send tim solve the problem? I am surprised that the oppo would have this problem as it is one of the fastest player with no layer change pause that I had since the Denon 2900. The jitter is making it hell to do a proper greyscale calibration without pausing at each of the test signal but still not really impossible or difficult to overcome though.

Oliver

For the PAL player that had the problem, I had to increase the pattern lengths very long to get it to work. It made the disc too large to download practically. I did not remake a NTSC version for teh Oppo to test yet. I still plan to done, just haven't had time yet. So far, it's only that one older PAL player and the Oppo that have had the issue reported. The one player didn't rank much priority, but I know the Oppo is popular so I will try to get a test DVD to one of the beta testers soon. Sorry for the trouble if you have an Oppo. It's nto a layer change, but I agree, you'd think if it were fast at that, it'd be fast as chapter changes, too. My Denon 2900, all my software players, as well as my older Sony and the kids Wal-mart el-cheapo's are all flawless, not so much as a twitch.

I downloaded the GetGray Digital Calibration files and burned it as an ISO. My disc works fine on my computer. On my Momitsu V880 player it works on everything but the Miscellaneous and credits section. DVD player just locks up. Toshibia HD-1 and Panasonic RP56 won't even recognize the disc! Very frustrating...... :mad:

If you burned it as an iso and you live in AZ... The iso is a PAL disc, there is no iso file on the site for NTSC. That would be a problem, unless you are using a PAL setup in AZ.

I went back and burned a regular DVD (DVD-R) not an ISO image and the disc will work on my computer DVD drive, but still on my Toshiba and Panasonic it won't even play. On the Momitsu, I can access every part of the tests except for the Miscellanous and credit section (just like the ISO DVD) When I try to go to these two sections, the player stops and I have to go back to the main menu. With as many coasters as I have made,( 5) I could have hired a pro calibrator! well not really, still very frustrating, as I really wanted to use the audo sych part. Back to Avia I guess....

It's working on everyone else's so something is being done wrong. Can' ttell you what. AS I said, I'm not sure how you ended up with an iso in the first place sinc ethere was no iso provided. There is a thread linked on post #1 of this thread, on buring how-to's. I'd recommend:
1. Re-download the *NTSC* version 1.1 zip file
2. Unzip it.
3. Ask for help with your application on the other thread to get a good burn. There are hundreds of these out there, and people using them at least in the A1, I think the Panasonic.

It's got to be something you are doing incorrectly, or a hardware issue up to or including media. But in any case, please work through it on the buring thread. There's no technical reason why the compilation would work part way through unless the files are corrupted. That's certaintly a possibility but having them in a zip was designed to minimize that possibility.

I was finally able to burn a working copy of the file by using Clone DVD2. I downloaded the file again, unzipped it and it works fine. I tried three other dvd burning software and the one program that was the most basic (4 steps to burn) was the only one that worked correctly, go figure! Now its on to the calabration!

Great, glad you got it going.

Love your disk. I have Video Essentials and Avia. I thought they worked though I never really trusted setting brightness and contrast with them. Now that I have GetGray I realize how limiting they were. Now with brightness and contrast, I know exactly what is going on. I thought this was going to be a better calibration disk and like the others I would use it and then put it away for 6 months to a year. I was wrong. I have had it for over a month and it hasn't been put away yet. The user interface is so clean and easy that anytime I think of a new setup question such as "On my PC which works better, setting the PC Player controls or setting the overlay controls, and how do they interact with my projector controls" I toss the disk back in and try it out. The other disks were just too slow to make such casual experimentation fun.

A tiny nit to pick on. The brightness contrast dual levels 50% APL pattern would need to have a dark frame around the light side the same way that there is a light frame around the dark side for it to be exactly 50%. It looks like it might be 55% APL now.

And I managed to find a typo (Oh Horrors :):):)) in the excellent documentation. Page 6, Paragraph 2, line 8 ...darkest level bar should look all appear one... remove "look"

And finally a question. The brightness screen has -4% -1% 0% +1% +2% bars. The contrast screen has -2% -1% 0% +2% +5% bars. Why are the below reference black -1% and -4% and the above reference white +2% and +5% percentages different? My guess is that trying to see the difference between +-1% at reference white is more difficult then to see +-1% at reference black. If that is the case, which for me it is, then a pointer to why our encoding scheme is that way would be appreciated.


Thanks Jim

GetGray -- Well I'm back from my 1 month + vacation trip, and playing catch-up. I've been out of touch (I couldn't get my Wi-Fi to work, so most of the time I was using a 24kps dial-up in the motels :eek: to read my emails.

I second (third?) the vote on the full frame cross-hatch pattern. Another possibility is to use something similar to an ISO Resolution Chart (used in photography to test cameras), see here: http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/~westin/misc/res-chart.html (you can download the PDF file). You could also use both. I'm tempted to make a picture from the PDF file and project it (along with the 783 pictures I took on the trip), just to see what it looks like (but no time right now - I have to catch-up around the house too).

jconklin -- Yup I found the same thing, which is why I volunteered to write the documentation. Oops on the typo. I thought Scott and I had eliminated all the typos. It looks like that was one that "got away" :rolleyes:. Thanks Jim for pointing it out :D.

Claus, welcome back. Was getting worried about you when a typo was posted and you didn't answer ;). As for the resoultion chart, copyright issues aside, I'm afraid the mpeg2 encode would butcher it. Mpeg just isn't friendly to those type images. Even a grid is iffy as we've seen on the "other" discs, but it's doable.

Jim: Thanks for the compliments, very glad it's working well. Looks like my prime directive of being quick and simple is working. The reason for the differing levels on white and black patterns was somewhat as you guessed, plus some. It is easier to adjust at a more granular level the brightness (black) pattern at 1%, than the contrast. Most people adjust to show black and very little if any bleow black. But a lot of people choose to adjust to show more "above white". Mostly it's harder to see the difference, but the slightly wider range is there for those wanting to show above white material.

Oh, and PS, I'll add changing the 50% apl pattern to my list.

re cross hatch: I think a cross hatch full pattern might be more useful than the frequency sweeps. I will add that to my list.

re Oppo: The flicker on that unit is a known issue with that player.

Any ETA on the cross hatch pattern? Thanks.

I just got a 2006 SXRD RPTV (KDS-50A2000). When I try to use the Contrast pattern on the GetGray disc all lines stay equally as bright no matter how low/high I set the Contrast.

For instance, the -4% -2% 0 +2% +4% lines look identical as I move across the ENTIRE range for the Contrast setting. The overall picture brightness changes as I move across the range. But at no point will it clip or any % bar blend in to the background etc.

How can I go about finding the right setting for contrast then, considering I have instrumentation to measure whatever is needed?

I was told that you can use a pattern that displays white from 235 thru 255 to do this by looking for a color shift in that range. Is there a pattern on GetGray that exposes this 235-255 range? I understand there is on on the DVE disc but cannot find it - if its not on the GetGray disc can someone let me know where it is on DVE? Thanks!

lovingdvd -- The Gray Scale Ramps (the 5% Step Ramp & the Gradient Ramp) cover the gray scale from digital 1 to digital 254, on the GetGray DVD. It sounds like you're feeding your new KDS-50A2000 (congradulations on getting a nice new display :D ) via its HDMI input. In that case, the grayscale range is dictated by the source (I am under the impression that you know that).

In any case, you can use the gray ramps to look for discolorations at both ends of the range. On the VideoEssentials web site (for DVE-NTSC), there is an index (http://www.videoessentials.com/NTSC_index.php) which lists the Advanced Gray scale as being in Title 7, Chapter 10. There are some more "Set-Up" patterns in Title 12.

re cross hatch eta: long time

re: 235-255: gray ramps include that data. It's described in the docs. The contrast pattern also includes informationin that range which should show a color shift if one occured.

I have a crosshatch pattern (and crosshatch pattern generator). See attached.

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/1867/xhatchkv2.th.jpg (http://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xhatchkv2.jpg)

Ron

Thanks Ron! I see it has the yuv files already, I'll incorporate it to the DVD. Much appreciated.

Both NTSC and PAL YUV files are in the .zip file.

Ron

Ron: A popular request is a pattern to determine the best settings for players with "red push", a color decoder checker pattern. I've been aggressively working on my CineSlide™ (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8262016&&#post8262016) anamorphic lens positioner and haven't had much time to work on such a pattern. Do you happen to have one I could use?

Thanks as always for all your great help.

yeah some digitals will clip, some will colorshift. Some rare ones perhaps will do neither in which case a maximum setting is appropriate, but I-ve not runinto such a display yet, but im sure somewhere out there...

I had an interesting experience calibrating the new Sony SXRD RPTV (KDS-50A000). It would not clip at all on the Contrast pattern. The default Contrast was MAX (100). I was surprised that I could keep it as high as 88 before there was any apparent color shift above 235. In fact this was the first time I ever needed the above white steps to make this judgement since other displays clipped before this point. The GetGray calibration pattern was really easy to use for this purpose and came in handy.

GetGray - on a related note you may want to consider adding a ramp bar (thin strip) that goes from 235-255 from left to right, then under it the same thing but it goes from 255-235. Such a pattern exists on a DVE pattern (Title 12 Chapter 15) and it was a bit easier to verify that using the 5% steps with only 2 steps above white.

I'm using the GetGray disc in an upscaling DVD player set to scale to 1080i over DVI. Is there a pattern I can use to verify that my display is resolving the full 1920x1080 resolution?

I'm thinking the Belle-Nuit pattern is useful for this. The docs seem to agree but not sure how to interpret the results.

Put it this way, when I display that pattern on my 1080p DLP (Sony A2000) I do see a little flickering within just the smallest of the 4 blocks that contain very thin lines (toward the upper right part of the patter).

Does the presence of this flickering suggest I'm not resolving the full resolution? Or does it suggest the deinterlacing is not so hot? Or both?

On a related note - how can one test deinterlacing capabilities with this disc? Is that possible?

GetGray - any idea if you will put out a HD DVD / BlueRay version of these patterns designed to 1080p sets? I imagine its a costly production process but not sure so I thought I'd ask.

lovingdvd -- The Belle-Nuit pattern is primarily a deinterlacing test, although the original description on the HQV DVD does mention that it's a resolution test too. The filckering on the test swatch #4 is the deinterlacing part.

I gave the GetGray calibration disc a shot just for kicks with a Denon 1910 @720P and a Panasonic TH-42PX60U 42" plasma via HDMI. I'm just an amateur AV guy, so I don't own a color/brightness meter, etc. I had to set the Denon player to turn off the artificial black level enhancement (the default), since the blacks were otherwise way too light and I used the plasma's normal picture mode and the cool color temperature, since the grays had the least yellow/brown shift that way. Most everything then adjusted fairly well, and I learned a lot from the documentation. I used some THX optimization blue filter glasses ($1 + S&H direct from the THX web site).

I do have some suggestions:

Add an NTSC iso, to make burning more trouble-free. I created a couple of coasters using CDBurnerXP 3 (though they worked on my computer, but not the DVD player) until I finally tried Nero with a DVD-R, and that worked. I eventually chose the slowest burn setting, but I don't know if that is related. ISOs seem to be more trouble-free in my experience, because there are no concerns about where the files/directories are located or named, etc. I don't know for sure an iso would have helped me, but it might have. You might also include a step-by-step burning tutorial in the .pdf or on the web site that uses a simple freeware burn program anyone can download and use easily, if an ISO isn't in the cards. That might further eliminate confusion of incompatible burn programs. It might also be worth mentioning to check the DVD player manual for media compatibility, and to try another media brand if the first one fails.

Mention in the docs that the 6 color bar hue/tint tests (especially the flashing ones) will display the normal MPEG artifacts between the colors, sometimes making it harder to perfectly match the colors on the hard edge, but the solid ones are a bit easier to match, IMO. The suggestion to take off corrective lenses was a good one and helped.

I was unable to adjust the contrast using the contrast pattern that well because the + white bars never disappeared for me, even over the whole range of the contrast setting, similar to what others have seen. So, I just set this setting back at the default and then adjusted manually by viewing a couple of DVDs. I'd mention this possibility in the docs, since it seems to be a common issue people see, given the several mentions here.

I get a tiny amount of flickering in the Belle-Nuit black/white horizontal swatch #3. The flickering gets a lot worse with the DVD player set to 1080i, but is also slightly visible at 480p and 720p. I assume there is nothing I can do about this short of buying a new DVD player? I am likely at the mercy of the Faroudja FLI-2301, correct? Or could it be the TV's scaler? I generally don't notice it during movies except with white text in a black background, such as in some interlude pictures between scenes.

Overall, I was happy with the disc, and I liked that it was a recent/evolving peer-reviewed work rather than another aging retail disc. I liked that I could download it and get going quickly since I received the download details the next morning via email. Burning the disc was not a trivial exercise, but that was the only real downside for me (unless you prefer audio calibration help/instructions to reading a document).

Hi,

I'm very interested to know what were the changes involved when preparing the PAL version - in terms of color encoding only.

According to Poynton's "Digital Video and HDTV", both PAL and NTSC use the same Luma Coefficients (rec601). (also, same transfer function is used).
In terms of color encoding, the primary chromaticity system is the only difference between PAL and NTSC (EBU tech 3213 and SMPTE RP 145, accordingly).

As far as I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong), the primary chromaticity system is irrelevant when encoding the digital test patterns - I assume the input values of the test images are stated as nonlinear R'G'B'.
So if the same luma coef. are used, we expect the same Y'CbCr values for both PAL and NTSC - i.e. "digital video" speaking, we are talking about the same encoded videos (besides resolution and frame rate).

Another way to look at this question -
Do we really need to calibrate our display both for PAL and for NTSC (assuming the physical interface is analog component or digital component)?

Your answers are appreciated. This question troubles me for quite a long time...

The colors are encoded identically for both. Both have the same digital values for RGB sources & untimate YCbCr on the DVD.

As for calibrating for both, I can't say. It woudl depend on what theplayer does with the repsective signals. Presuming the color decode path is the same, I'd say no need.

The colors are encoded identically for both. Both have the same digital values for RGB sources & untimate YCbCr on the DVD.

As for calibrating for both, I can't say. It woudl depend on what theplayer does with the repsective signals. Presuming the color decode path is the same, I'd say no need.

Thanks.
This is what I've always suspected.

If anyone can tell the reason for calibrating for both PAL and NTSC, please elaborate (maybe in a new thread?).

Thanks.
This is what I've always suspected.

If anyone can tell the reason for calibrating for both PAL and NTSC, please elaborate (maybe in a new thread?).
PAL and NTSC have different coordinates for the primaries, so for displays where you have full color management (and separate memories to store the values for PAL and NTSC), you would want to calibrate for both. Samsung SP-H710 is one example.

PAL and NTSC have different coordinates for the primaries, so for displays where you have full color management (and separate memories to store the values for PAL and NTSC), you would want to calibrate for both. Samsung SP-H710 is one example.

Thanks for your answer.
However I still feel I'm missing something here.

So lets go back a little, to the digital video content.
According to GetGray, same Y'CbCr values are used in both versions.
Now lets follow a theoretical color decoder's path:

Y'CbCr values go under a linear transformation (luma coefficeints) to form the nonlinear (gamma corrected) R'G'B' values. According to Poynton, this transfomation is the same in both standards (rec 601 luma coef.).

Transfer (gamma) function is applied to R'G'B' values, to form linear-light RGB values. According to Poynton, the transformation is the same in both standards (rec 709 transfer function).

So far, we have same RGB values for both versions.

But since the color systems are not the same (different set of primaries for the two standards), the result is that the color represented by the same RGB triple (derived by the same video content) is NOT the same for both versions.
(assuming one theoretical display which has primaries exactly as NTSC's, and another theoretical display which has primaries exactly as PAL's).

In reality, a display has only one set of primaries (which, is always somewhat deviant from any standard color system...).

So what's the purpose calibrating both versions, if at the final stage, the linear RGB values are driven into the display's real (physical) one-and-only set of primaries?

(or - am I missing something in the decoder's flow?...)

Thanks.

Could I use this with Getgray Caldisk;
Link (http://www.colorvision.com/profis/profis_view.jsp?id=581)

If I can, can you give a quick overview of how the two work together.
Something I can look for instructions in the manual of either product.

This offers rgb calibration. Do I need this model as the other one doesn't have rgb calibration.
Link (http://www.colorvision.com/profis/profis_view.jsp?id=601)

(or - am I missing something in the decoder's flow?...)
Thanks.
No, you are 100% correct in your assumption of how the color decoder works. The point you are missing is that *some* displays, mainly DLPs, have a feature to define the coordinates for the primaries and secondaries. There is always a native set of primaries, but as long as the triangle they represent is larger than the standard you want to implement, it is often possible to "reign in" the more saturated primary to the coordinate you want. In the Samsungs you use the CCA menu for this. Many display have such saturated primaries (most often green) that this is a must to achieve accuracy.

Could I use this with Getgray Caldisk;
Link (http://www.colorvision.com/profis/profis_view.jsp?id=581)

If I can, can you give a quick overview of how the two work together.
Something I can look for instructions in the manual of either product.

This offers rgb calibration. Do I need this model as the other one doesn't have rgb calibration.
Link (http://www.colorvision.com/profis/profis_view.jsp?id=601)
I'd check www.calman.com. Maybe what you are looking for.

EDIT: Oops, that's www.calman.tv as shown below. Thanks guys, Sorry Bill. Scott

Hmmm, www.calman.com takes me to a "This domain is for sale" page.

The address is www.calman.tv

No, you are 100% correct in your assumption of how the color decoder works. The point you are missing is that *some* displays, mainly DLPs, have a feature to define the coordinates for the primaries and secondaries. There is always a native set of primaries, but as long as the triangle they represent is larger than the standard you want to implement, it is often possible to "reign in" the more saturated primary to the coordinate you want. In the Samsungs you use the CCA menu for this. Many display have such saturated primaries (most often green) that this is a must to achieve accuracy.

To summarize, may I state the following:

1. Some displays have native gamut wider than any gamut defined by the primaries of any standard. These displays allow the user to define the coordinates of the primaries used in a certain setup (either by explicitly defining the coordinates, or by choosing pre-defined sets of primaries), as long as the defined primaries lie inside the native gamut. In terms of color decoding, it means that the linear RGB values (appropriate to some standard, say PAL or NTSC), go under another linear transformation, to form the final RGB triple appropriate for the display's native gamut.
For these kind of devices, separate calibrations for PAL and NTSC makes sense, and is in fact necessary.

2. Other devices have native gamut which is deviant from any standard gamut (i.e. smaller than / aside from any standard gamut).
These devices simply take the linear RGB values formed at end of decoding process (which are appropriate to some standard, either PAL or NTSC), and drive them to the display's native primaries, resulting in incorrect color reproduction.
Separate PAL/NTSC calibration is meaningless for these display devices.

For those who have used this dvd...is it comparable to DVE and Avia calibration dvd's?

For those who have used this dvd...is it comparable to DVE and Avia calibration dvd's?

It's much better than Avia.

PAL and NTSC have different coordinates for the primaries, so for displays where you have full color management (and separate memories to store the values for PAL and NTSC), you would want to calibrate for both. Samsung SP-H710 is one example.

I'm curious as NTSC always start from digitial 16 to 235 as the valid range from 0% black to 100% white. Any signal out of the range would be either BTB or WTW. In the case of PAL, do we have to calibrate using test pattern that use the full range from 0 to 255? I believe reading some article that the black level might be different.

I just got the GetGrey DVD setup... and I like it a lot compared to DVE.. It gets right down to the point..

I have a Samsung HL-S5687W and I have some questions about it...

I have brightness at 62 to get the +1% bar to disappear... I have noticed that my other blacks for letterbox are no longer pure black. Is this ok? My other blacks are not as dark as they used to be, but they may have been to dark to begin with.

The Contrast Test Page.. I cannot get the +2% to fade.. I can get the -1% to fade...

this is at a setting of 45...

I have Color at 50, Tint at Mid, Colortone is Warm2.. Mode is Movie..

Is there something that I need to do in the Service Menu to get these tests to work like they say in the Doc?

Thanks!

I'm curious as NTSC always start from digitial 16 to 235 as the valid range from 0% black to 100% white. Any signal out of the range would be either BTB or WTW. In the case of PAL, do we have to calibrate using test pattern that use the full range from 0 to 255? I believe reading some article that the black level might be different.

The range is still 16 to 235 for PAL. Those are digital values. What happens when they are converted to analogue voltages is different between PAL and NTSC. When a DVD player sees 16, it knows it is black, so will send out a voltage of 0mv if the disk is PAL, or it will send out 53mv if the disk is NTSC. White will be the same for both. If you have a player that is multi-region such as here in the UK, and you only use the component outputs for example, you will have to set the black level using a PAL test disk and an NTSC test disk to set up the display black level correctly. Not all displays will automaticaly remember the differences between PAL and NTSC so you may have to use two memory slots to save the two different settings.

If there is no analogue chain (using digital only via DVI, HDMI) then the digital 16 remains unchanged as there is no voltage conversion, so both PAL and NTSC will have the same black level once calibrated. The same applies to using the PC VGA output as it doesn't convert the output to PAL or NTSC, so setting the black level with either disk wil be OK for those cases.

HTH

Gary

The range is still 16 to 235 for PAL. Those are digital values. What happens when they are converted to analogue voltages is different between PAL and NTSC. When a DVD player sees 16, it knows it is black, so will send out a voltage of 0mv if the disk is PAL, or it will send out 53mv if the disk is NTSC. White will be the same for both. If you have a player that is multi-region such as here in the UK, and you only use the component outputs for example, you will have to set the black level using a PAL test disk and an NTSC test disk to set up the display black level correctly. Not all displays will automaticaly remember the differences between PAL and NTSC so you may have to use two memory slots to save the two different settings.

If there is no analogue chain (using digital only via DVI, HDMI) then the digital 16 remains unchanged as there is no voltage conversion, so both PAL and NTSC will have the same black level once calibrated. The same applies to using the PC VGA output as it doesn't convert the output to PAL or NTSC, so setting the black level with either disk wil be OK for those cases.

HTH

Gary

Gary

Thanks for the explanation. That pretty much clear up my confusion.

most of the new projectors do a video calibration.

In what way do they do a calibration?

Surely he missed the word "need" in that sentence ;)

Ah, yes, that would mak sense. :)

I try CalMAN this week end. Combine with to my Spyder2Pro this is really good for calibration. I was getting tired of all the manual data manipulation but the spreadsheet from CalMan is easy to use and simplify everything.

Surely he missed the word "need" in that sentence ;)

True that!

Although to be totally thorough, there are a couple that do self-calibrate, and do it pretty darn well. The Marantz S3 did this, I don't know if the S4 or similar still do, but it used a probe you put on the lens and it aligns everything pretty good. I don't know about the precision compared to doing it with better equipment, I would assume a skilled calibrator could do better. But by eye it looked quite fine.

I recently downloaded the disc and burnt the VIDEO_TS and MISC folders onto a Fuji Film DVD-R disc as directed by the instructions on the calibrate.tv site. I am encountering a problem with playing the disc on my fairly new Panasonic DVD player. Instead of autoplaying the disc, the player displays a directory view. It recognizes the exsistence of the picture of the disc back in the MISC folder, but doesn't recognize any of the information in the VIDEO_TS folder.

I tried the disc on my friend's Samsung DVD player, and it works fine.

I've also tried burning the disc with the empty AUDIO_TS folder, onto an LG disc, and in a seperate burn excluded the MISC folder. Neither of these worked.

Any suggestions?

did you burn it to a CDR instead of a DVDR? (yes, it will fit...) SOME players switch to data-mode when they detect CDR media....


:cool:

I recently downloaded the disc and burnt the VIDEO_TS and MISC folders onto a Fuji Film DVD-R disc as directed by the instructions on the calibrate.tv site. I am encountering a problem with playing the disc on my fairly new Panasonic DVD player. Instead of autoplaying the disc, the player displays a directory view. It recognizes the exsistence of the picture of the disc back in the MISC folder, but doesn't recognize any of the information in the VIDEO_TS folder.

I tried the disc on my friend's Samsung DVD player, and it works fine.

I've also tried burning the disc with the empty AUDIO_TS folder, onto an LG disc, and in a seperate burn excluded the MISC folder. Neither of these worked.

Any suggestions?
Sounds like you made a data disc instead of a "DVD". DVD's have a specific structure (UDF) and your buring software shoud have a way to distinguish between a data disc and a DVD, or allow you to choose a UDF type. Some players will play either but that's not the standard.

billbilliken -- It sounds like you may have put the MISC folder on the DVD first (which may confuse the DVD Writer software into thinking you're making a Data Disc). You should put the Video_TS files on first and add the Misc folder after them. Some players may be able to "get past" the data files, but the Video files should be predominant.

IMHO, there is no advantage putting the Misc folder onto the DVD. They're easier to use from the PC anyway. That's my personal preference, only.

Claus is right, and the MISC filder is definately optional. It's just the pdf and the image files if one wants to make a label. You can always get those off the website if you lose them. It's only there cor convenience.

I downloaded my disk and made the DVD. It worked great. I use NERO but a different version than most so my options were a little different starting off. But once I got to the right screen it was easy.
I saw there was an ISO file in the PAL version, but not the NTSC.
I was a little apprehensive at first because I am very used to working with ISO files to make disk images.
But it was just as easy burning the disk with NERO.

My PQ looks a lot better!

Thanks again for all your hard work. It is a very nice, easy to use calibration DVD.

Does the AVS downloadable CD-ROM/DVD need special glasses and stuff to calibrate video? I'm not worried about audio at the present.

How would you rate the instructions for a 1st-time HDTV buyer ?

Does the AVS downloadable CD-ROM/DVD need special glasses and stuff to calibrate video? I'm not worried about audio at the present.

How would you rate the instructions for a 1st-time HDTV buyer ?Yes, for color and tint. Also, the answer is in the instrucitons and I recommend reading them before downloading, then you can decide for yourself.

In light of recent user difficulties with both folders and buring in general, I have added an iso for the NTSC version. See the DVD burning thread linked in post #1 for more info. I also changed recommended download to the iso. Using the iso will guarantee a proper format DVD with all the files in the right place, right DVD structure, no reencode, etc. If you have a working DVD please do NOT go get the iso, it has no changes and would be a waste of my limited bandwidth.

Cheers, Scott

Is the current NTSC version still 1.1?

Is the current NTSC version still 1.1?Yes

dr1394 and Scott.

May I ask you two to create some Chroma Noise test patterns for the GetGray disk.
FFdshow, and Avisynth have denoisers that filter out Chroma and Luma noise and it would be nice to have a test pattern for it.

HQV.com calibration disk has one. Here's a picture from their ad.

http://www.hqv.com/%2FcontentEngine%2FcontentImages%2Fimg%5Fcompare%5Fnoise%2Ej pg

Link (http://www.hqv.com/benchmark.cfm)

Scott, thanks for uploading the iso image for the NTSC version. I burned it using my friend's DVD burner a couple of days ago, and it worked like a charm. I've fiddled with the disc some, and it's already helped me get some better detail out of the blacks on my display. I also found out I had the color settings down much to low.

Thanks again!

You are welcome, I'm very glad its helpful.

I have no idea how good these are, but stumbled on them...

Image Burn (http://www.imgburn.com/)

Burn CDCC (down the page a bit) (http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/utilities.html)

So can you use the colour filters provided with DVE for GetGray?

It looks as though the DVD burned fine. It plays perfectly on an Oppo DVD. In the Tosh HD-DVD player it will not play; display: "NOPLAY."

Any ideas, guys?

So can you use the colour filters provided with DVE for GetGray?Yes. I find the DVE card mounted filters a little dark and harder to see (could just be the one's I've seen) but they are definately fine for use with the Getgray DVD.

It looks as though the DVD burned fine. It plays perfectly on an Oppo DVD. In the Tosh HD-DVD player it will not play; display: "NOPLAY."

Any ideas, guys?My best guess is the DVD was burned as a data disc and the Oppo recognizes it (some players will play data disc becasue it sees the necessary files that aren't necessarily in DVD disc structure, dunno bout Oppo). If you used the iso to create the DVD that shouldn't be the case. If you used the files option, it could be. Which did you do?

If you used the iso to create the DVD that shouldn't be the case. If you used the files option, it could be. Which did you do?

It is definately not a data disc, it is ISO, and I don't know what he "files option" is.

It is definately not a data disc, it is ISO, and I don't know what he "files option" is.

I don't believe the Toshiba HD player accepts all recordable DVD formats. Have you tried this same media with other titles?

-Bill

It is definately not a data disc, it is ISO, and I don't know what he "files option" is.What I meant was from the www.calibrate.tv website there were 2 options for downloading the files, one is to download the zipped iso image, the other option is to download the zipped DVD files (i.e. VIDEO_TS\*.*, etc.). If you did the zipped iso, and made the disc from the unzipped iso image, then the DVD structure (UDF, Joilet, etc) should be fine. If you created the DVD from the zipped files, then it is possible something is wrong with the structure that could cause the symptom you see. This is dependent on the software used to create the DVD. It is perfectly possible to create a disc that looks like a DVD but does not have the correct structure/filesystem.

If it plays in one player and not another, that's the only technical reason I can think of. Otherwise, Media would be my guess. I am pretty sure others have it working fine in their HDDVD.

So far it is a mystery. I am using Nero 7.5. When I have some more time for this, I will re-trace the process and see what happens.

Cam Man -- It should work if you used a DVD-R disc. If you used a DVD+R disc, it may not work in all DVD players. I also use Nero 7 Ultra, so if you still have problems, feel free to send me a PM and I can see if I can help you troube-shoot your problem.

As GetGray said, the media also makes a difference. I found that my cheap DVD-Rs won't work in a relative's cheap Toshiba DVD changer (not the HD-DVD) if they are burned at "Max Speed" (although they will work in all of my home DVD players).

Cam Man, can you take it up on the burning thread when you get back to it? Linked in post #1 of this thread. Thanks. We are watching there, too.

Wilco. It is a DVD+R disc...but so is the GG beta version which plays fine on the Toshiba.

In light of recent user difficulties with both folders and buring in general, I have added an iso for the NTSC version.

Thank you on behalf of future purchasers! I ended up going through 3 different programs before I found one (ImgBurn) that worked well. I use Nero for almost everything, but could NOT get it to work with the files. I found myself asking, "I wonder why this isn't distributed as an ISO?" :)

I purchased GetGray via Paypal, but have not received links or an email other than the one from Paypal.

how do I get the links to download the iso?

I've been looking over the PDF documentation and think that this disc will be more convenient to use than Avia/DVE so I'm about ready to purchase. One question I have, is it possible to get the reference/target values for the color window screens? It seems this info would be needed if one were to actually use this screens with measurement hardware for color calibrating. My new Mits DLP has the ability to adjust tint/saturation for the individual primary and secondary colors as opposed to just the global color/tint, so I'm thinking these color window patters could be really useful for that but I would need to know the reference value I'm trying to adjust for.

I think you have some misunderstanding about what the patterns provide. They *are* reference values, but to read if a gray window for example is right or not, you need a colorimeter (or extremely experienced eye) to tell how close they are to D65. The color patterns on teh other hand are Red, blue, or green, at the specified luminance value (typically 180/75%). A colorimeter will measure how close these are to the CIE coordinants. It's not like they spit out some value and you dial in a device to those values, too bad it's not that simple.

Either all that or I misunderstand what you are asking for. All the numbers associated with the gray and color patterns are not only published in the pdf, they are documented right on most of the patterns (digital levels).

You might want to check out Bill Blackwells site (www.calman.tv). I believe he has a very good document explaining some of the details.

Hope that helps, Scott

I think you have some misunderstanding about what the patterns provide. They *are* reference values, but to read if a gray window for example is right or not, you need a colorimeter (or extremely experienced eye) to tell how close they are to D65. The color patterns on teh other hand are Red, blue, or green, at the specified luminance value (typically 180/75%). A colorimeter will measure how close these are to the CIE coordinants. It's not like they spit out some value and you dial in a device to those values, too bad it's not that simple.

Either all that or I misunderstand what you are asking for. All the numbers associated with the gray and color patterns are not only published in the pdf, they are documented right on most of the patterns (digital levels).

You might want to check out Bill Blackwells site (www.calman.tv). I believe he has a very good document explaining some of the details.

Hope that helps, Scott
I have an Eye One Spectro. Accucal is way too expensive for my needs and Calman doesn't support the i1 hardware yet. So that leaves me with the spot-measurement mode in ProfileMaker's Measure Tool, which can give me readings in one of the following colorspaces:

- Lab
- XYZ
- LCh
- Luv

So I was hoping you had an answer for me on how to convert "75% Magenta" into one of these colorspaces.

I have an Eye One Spectro. Accucal is way too expensive for my needs and Calman doesn't support the i1 hardware yet. So that leaves me with the spot-measurement mode in ProfileMaker's Measure Tool, which can give me readings in one of the following colorspaces:

- Lab
- XYZ
- LCh
- Luv

So I was hoping you had an answer for me on how to convert "75% Magenta" into one of these colorspaces.No, sorry. It's not something that actually has a literal direct realtionship to the disc. I think Poynton's book would cover it. There's a good reason all those guys software packages are pricey. And some of them are "bare bones" when it comes to interpreting what the i1Pro puts out. As for teh DVD, Magenta is Magenta, etc. Only a few displays allow the adjustment of primaries, much less secondaries. THe D65 coordinates are widely published although I do not know them off the top of my head. The device should be adjusted with XY staying at those coordinates. But this is getting way off topic from the DVD. You might start a thread "How to use raw i! pro XYZ data to adjust my display". You'll get more info there.

No, sorry. It's not something that actually has a literal direct realtionship to the disc. I think Poynton's book would cover it. There's a good reason all those guys software packages are pricey. And some of them are "bare bones" when it comes to interpreting what the i1Pro puts out. As for teh DVD, Magenta is Magenta, etc. Only a few displays allow the adjustment of primaries, much less secondaries. THe D65 coordinates are widely published although I do not know them off the top of my head. The device should be adjusted with XY staying at those coordinates. But this is getting way off topic from the DVD. You might start a thread "How to use raw i! pro XYZ data to adjust my display". You'll get more info there.
OK, I thought it would be worth a try. The Mits 723/831 do allow adjustment of the primaries and secondaries so the potential for calibaration is definitely there. Derek over at the CalMan forums has indicated that a point release with i1Pro support should be out soon, so maybe I'll just wait for that.

Will this getgrey program work for my Samsung 5086W DLP?

Will this getgrey program work for my Samsung 5086W DLP?It is not a program. It's just a set of test patterns. It is suitable for providing test patterns on any DLP.

So how do I burn the ISO onto a DVD rather than a CD?

consult the help file in your favorite burning application...

:cool:

So how do I burn the ISO onto a DVD rather than a CD?Step1: See post #1 of this thread for link to getting burining help.

Just to chime in with my opinion:
Finally got GetGray disk (about two weeks ago) as I became DVD-burn capable.
Had a chance to use it on my plasma display (Pany TH-42PWD8UK) over the weekend.
I calibrated the display with AVIA (old version) so it was not far off, but BOY what a difference using GetGray disk. With GetGray patterns there was no doubt when I accomplished optimal settings! Way simpler to use and in the same time enables more precise calibration.
With AVIA (truth is it was NOT designed for digital displays) I was always left with the filling that I should go back and recheck my settings.
With GetGray – no doubts. It allows precise settings and allows you to set exactly what and how much you wont to see on your display (like below black and above white).
I am by no means expert, but this disk is great. Even though there are patterns that are for professional use, an amateur eyeballing calibrator has plenty to go by. And did I say how easy to use it is?

I just ordered this cal disc and the blue THX glasses. A quick question. After I run a basic (no light meter/colorimeter) calibration for my HDMI-connected DVD player, should I just copy the new settings to the other inputs I'm using on my Sammy HL-S6187W DLP? I guess it won't hurt to try on my digital cable connection (also HDMI) but what has other people here done?

I just ordered this cal disc and the blue THX glasses. A quick question. After I run a basic (no light meter/colorimeter) calibration for my HDMI-connected DVD player, should I just copy the new settings to the other inputs I'm using on my Sammy HL-S6187W DLP? I guess it won't hurt to try on my digital cable connection (also HDMI) but what has other people here done?Generally, each input/source combination will require a separate calibration. You could certainly copy your HDMI parameters to the other inputs to use as a starting point. But, expect to have to tweak the parameters with each input or input/source combination.

BTW, this is OT. If you want additional info, it's probably best to start a thread in the Calibration forum.

So how'bout posting your 42PWD8UK post cal settings?



Just to chime in with my opinion:
Finally got GetGray disk (about two weeks ago) as I became DVD-burn capable.
Had a chance to use it on my plasma display (Pany TH-42PWD8UK) over the weekend.
I calibrated the display with AVIA (old version) so it was not far off, but BOY what a difference using GetGray disk. With GetGray patterns there was no doubt when I accomplished optimal settings! Way simpler to use and in the same time enables more precise calibration.
With AVIA (truth is it was NOT designed for digital displays) I was always left with the filling that I should go back and recheck my settings.
With GetGray – no doubts. It allows precise settings and allows you to set exactly what and how much you wont to see on your display (like below black and above white).
I am by no means expert, but this disk is great. Even though there are patterns that are for professional use, an amateur eyeballing calibrator has plenty to go by. And did I say how easy to use it is?

So how'bout posting your 42PWD8UK post cal settings?To keep this thread on topic, I started a new one HERE. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8668007#post8668007)
We can go wild with settings discussion there ;)

I'm having the contrast problem as well. Unable to adjust so that the +2 and +5 bars disappear.

I have the panasonic 60u.

I've tried adjusting for the different picture settings, standard, cinema, etc. Also, I've tried adjusting black level and color temperature. According to the 5% gray pattern I'm also passing above whites.

Jules:

Many times a digital set will not clip the above white information. It is a display specific thing. I should probably start a separate thread about this particular issue so we can all point folks to it. It's been discussed before here, but I understand this thread is pretty lengthy to read and find all that stuff.

For times when it will not clip (make the + bars disappear), look for color shifts in the whites and set below the point where it shifts. Short of that, it would be display dependent.

HTH,
Scott

Jules:

Many times a digital set will not clip the above white information. It is a display specific thing. I should probably start a separate thread about this particular issue so we can all point folks to it. It's been discussed before here, but I understand this thread is pretty lengthy to read and find all that stuff.

For times when it will not clip (make the + bars disappear), look for color shifts in the whites and set below the point where it shifts. Short of that, it would be display dependent.

HTH,
Scott

Thanks Scott! I'll try that. FWIW, I'm getting a much better picture after calibration and other than the contrast problems, the disc is really easy to use. Now hopefully my THX glasses will come this weekend so I can play with other patterns.

He guys does anyone know the new mail adres of the getgray guys. beceause when i mail at caldisc05 at calibrate.tv ofcourse at is @, I get the error the the mailadress isn't working anymore. I just paid yesterday 25$ to them and I still havn't got the download link.

grt,
Ruben

Im new to all this calibration stuff, I exchanged my 5086w for the 5087w and everything seems 100x more vivid even at low contrast settings, colors in general just seem a ton better, is this because of the 10000:1 contrast level on the 87 compared to the 2500:1 on the 86w?


anyway to my main point, I downloade..I mean bought Avia home and started going the the menus, man it is complicated as hell to me, Im not going to even bother attempting it again after 3 times now. For example, the contrast setting mode it gives, everything looks fine to me from 30% to 100% contrast so i have no clue where to leave it, Im looking for blooming and dont see it. The only one that did make sense to me was the brightness module, the sharpness one i saw no changes at all from 0 to 100% on both tv's

So I was wondering will this Getgrey dvd be any easier for me, or any other recomendations?

Ruben -- Send Scott (GetGray) a PM {Personal Message}. His web server may be down.

He will respond to you, as soon as he can. As soon as he gets your $25 contribution (provided you gave him an email address), he will send you an address and password so that you can download the files. If you haven't given him an email address (make sure your email anti-spam software, or ISP, isn't blocking emails from him) he will try to contact you via a PM (don't forget to check your AVS Forum PM mailbox).

If you don't get results, send me a PM and I'll try to get in touch with him for you.

----------

Im new to all this calibration stuff, I exchanged my 5086w for the 5087w and everything seems 100x more vivid even at low contrast settings, colors in general just seem a ton better, is this because of the 10000:1 contrast level on the 87 compared to the 2500:1 on the 86w?


anyway to my main point, I downloade..I mean bought Avia home and started going the the menus, man it is complicated as hell to me, Im not going to even bother attempting it again after 3 times now. For example, the contrast setting mode it gives, everything looks fine to me from 30% to 100% contrast so i have no clue where to leave it, Im looking for blooming and dont see it. The only one that did make sense to me was the brightness module, the sharpness one i saw no changes at all from 0 to 100% on both tv's

So I was wondering will this Getgrey dvd be any easier for me, or any other recomendations?I doubt it, since it sounds like you are still confused about calibration. If you go to www.calibrate.tv, you can download the instructions for free. Read them and see if you understand the steps that are required.

I believe that the reason you had some problems with AVIA, was that you did not listen carefully to the instructions. Blooming only happens with CRT displays (as the AVIA instructions on the DVD tell you) and you have an LCD display (it does not exhibit blooming). You also have to read the manual for your display :eek:. If you have any of the "Auto" controls turned on, you will not be able to adjust "Sharpness", for example, because the Auto controls will override your efforts. Also, some displays will not let you adjust some of the parameters in some of there operating modes (your display manual should tell you).

I'm not trying to criticize you, I'm just trying to point out that calibration takes some work on your part to understand what is going on and what is needed to do the job. An it does require that you pay attention to the small details.

So I was wondering will this Getgrey dvd be any easier for me, or any other recomendations?

This is what I did: I started with the THX Optimizer which is included in the setup section of disks marked "THX Certified". Simple, easy to use, just enough online instructions to be helpful. I think it is a good introduction to the basic adjustments.

Then I got the GetGray disk and have been very happy with it. No nonsense, very easy navigation. I mostly use just three screens: the moving black bars, the moving white bars, and the flashing hue/tint patterns. When trying out a new player, display, or connection method, I'll check out the Alignment/Overscan screen.

The blue filter glasses available from thx.com are very handy for both of the above methods.

I have recently bought both Avia and DVE but have not spent much time with them. The tutorial material is probably valuable, but I have not had time or patience to sit through them yet. Compared to GetGray, navigation on both is cumbersome.

-Bill

He guys does anyone know the new mail adres of the getgray guys. beceause when i mail at caldisc05 at calibrate.tv ofcourse at is @, I get the error the the mailadress isn't working anymore.There was apparently a problem at Ruben's ISP. I had sent him them link info about an hour after I heard from him. The calibrate.tv server is up and got several unrelated messages during the time Ruben was having trouble. Anyway I got his PM and sent him a copy of the stuff that way since his ISP also tossed the mail apparently. Thanks for sending him that way Claus.

For some reason AVSforum's software never notifies me of new replies to this particular thread (of course I am subscribed). So I try to manually check it once a day or so. But it always notifies me of new PM's so if you can' t reach me by mail, PM will work as an alternative (try mail first).

Cheers, Scott

I've just purchased a Samsung HLS1687 DLP and used the settings that Eliab recommended for the set, but I'd like to go a bit further and calibrate it as best I can myself.

A few questions just to be clear on what I would get with the calibration disc and so forth:

1. What, in total, will I need to complete the calibration? I've read the "walk through" for calibrating to the test patterns is a print out copy on the page GetGray provides. So I'll need this, the disc, and a pair of glasses? Any links on where to get the glasses? Anything else needed?

2. I know the instructions will have info on how to use the test patterns, but I speculate there will be no tv-specific info in there. Info such as how to reach the service menu, which settings to adjust to get the test patterns aligned the way the instructions dictate. Any idea on where this info could be had? I know there's nothing in my TV manual like that.

3. Is the calibration input-specific, or picture-size-specific, or both? What I mean is if I have my HDMI input for my HD DVD player at 16:9/1080p and run a calibration on it, will the settings be the same if I go to the built in OTA digital tuner in 16:9/1080p? Or will they change since I'm going to a different source? And if so, when I change to TV, and calibrate using 16:9 for an HD broadcast, will the calibration settings change when I switch to 4:3 for the same broadcast if the picture changes?

Thanks all.

I've just purchased a Samsung HLS1687 DLP and used the settings that Eliab recommended for the set, but I'd like to go a bit further and calibrate it as best I can myself.

1. "Total" is a big word. For "total" you need a colorimeter device. For basic you need a blue filter. Colorimeter devices are listed in the appendix. Plus one that is not listed yet is www.calman.tv Resources for the filters are in the appendix, too.

2. See other thread stickys in this forum for info on how to kill your TV :). Start a new thread for a specific question on a specific set. Start a new thread for something not specific to the calibration DVD.

3. Calibrations are generally input specific, but that may include the same input and different types of sources. e.g. a component, DVI or HDMI input might get a receiver switched signal froma SD DVD, HD DVD, and Sat box. Each source type for a particular input would likely need calibration; if the device had multiple memories per input.... See A#2, part 2.

Our friends in Briz enjoy PAL/60 not the European standard PAL/50. Does the Get Gray calibration disk work on PAL/60 sets?

I assume that by PAL/60 you mean PAL resolution and settings but at a 60Hz refresh rate rather than 50 Hz, just to clear up a point for Scott (he'll have to answer this one - I can only guess which version would be better).

Our friends in Briz enjoy PAL/60 not the European standard PAL/50. Does the Get Gray calibration disk work on PAL/60 sets?
Being a southern boy I'm not positive where Briz is. But people from Iceland to Austrailia have it, no one has ever mentioned it before, so AFAIK, it works fine.

I just purchased Getgray and Spyder Express. I have and Infocus X1 and Panny XP30. I ran Getgray and did initial calibrations, then took readings and pasted into Raders sheet. My total gamma =2.73, red=2.35, green=error, blue=2.90. Should I correct each color with their slide bars? They are all set on 50, would decreasing each color also decrease their individual contrast. This colorimeter has me lost...but not for long..Txs for any help.

lashag, et.al: For questions not specific to the DVD, if you start a different thread, you'll get more help. The Spyder guys may not be monitoring this thread but will more likely be monitoring the forum. A thread title of "Using GetGray DVD, Radar, Spyder Express, with XP30" would probably be appropriate. Your question won't be specific to the GetGray DVD so any of the calibrators will be albe to help you with your Spyder question. Anyway that's the best process to get help with your question.

I wrote a guide for how to use software to play dvd's on a pc.
Link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=719041)

Using Media Player Classic and Owen's ffdshow guide.
When I run the lipsync test and open the jitter tab in ffdshow audio decoder, it's different than when I open the jitter tab while playing a major motion picture dvd.
I've tested a few major motion picture dvd's on two different pc's and they all have the same jitter number.

With the jitter number, I type that into the audio delay tab and the result is exact lip sync. So running the jitter test on the getgray disk and it being different is a problem.

The software in the link is free. So I'm going to ask you, Scott. To run the Media Player Classic configuration, and Owen's FFdshow configuration and run the lipsync test on the getgray disk then compare the jitter number in movies to the jitter number on the getgrey disk.

And may I ask you again to please include a noise pattern that I can calibrate the denoiser in FFdshow too.

Do I need any filters, measuring devices, etc... other than my eyes, for calibrating a Sony 60" XBR2 TV with this software?

Thanks.

Pierre

Do I need any filters, measuring devices, etc... other than my eyes, for calibrating a Sony 60" XBR2 TV with this software?

Thanks.

Pierre

You need blue filters to do hue and tint. Filter glasses are available from thx.com for $1, very handy.

-Bill

Will I get as good a calibration of my Sony 60" XBR2 TV as with the various DVDs that are available?

Thanks.

Pierre

Has anyone compared this software with the $29.95 ISF HDTV Calibration Wizard DVD?

Thanks.

Pierre

Has anyone compared this software with the $29.95 ISF HDTV Calibration Wizard DVD?
You mean the Getgray disk?
The ISF/Monster Calibration disk is for newbies, the getgray is for those with a clue.
Not that newbies can't do well with a getgray disk, but they have to be more "committed".

Will I get as good a calibration of my Sony 60" XBR2 TV as with the various DVDs that are available?

Thanks.

PierreIf that is a CRT, I recommend Avia for a newbie CRT basic settign DVD. The GetGray DVD does not have a contrast pattern designed specifically for CRT's. CRT's do something called blooming and it takes a different pattern. Not to say one can't use this DVD with a CRT, they can, and many do. They just need to be aware of the contrast thing. Everything else is perfectly OK.

If it's not a CRT, go to the website www.calibrate.tv, read the doc file that's there free to download, and see if it looks like you'd be comfortable with it. Beginners will use contrast, brightness, and the color/tint patterns, then learn from there.

HTH, Scott

I'm greatly interested in this. Looking at the PDF I note there is no deinterlacing or noise reduction tests. Are people also buying HQV benchmark for those tests? Why not have it in one?

Are people also buying HQV benchmark for those tests? Why not have it in one?

Probably.

Personally, HQV is much ado about nothing. Your player is going to do what it does when it comes to de-interlacing, etc.

From a PQ perspective, it's MUCH more important to have your display set up correctly for brightness/contrast, colour, etc.

I understand mate. I dunno, I guess I'm curios/worried/looking to test especially the deinterlacing. Much of my source will be 1080i over FTA and with HTPC's the deinterlacing can be changed. I've seen some pretty horrid deinterlacing that to me atleast looked worse than say having contrast not right.

The GetGray DVD is designed to provide the patterns necessary to *adjust* a display, not to *test* it. That said, it is rare one can do anything to adjust a player's ability to properly deinterlace. There are exceptions like when someone is choosing between scaling sources and pass-through or not on a high end scaler, which is still going to be rare IMO. Even then, it's rarely about adjustingsg, but more about choosing devices. And for those cases, I recommend material specifically designed to test for such things (e.g. HQV).

This is one reason this DVD is so popular, no fluff, just the core material necessary to *adjust*, not test.

I understand your points mate. In HTPC applications it is easy to change filters and deinterlacing methods that make these sorts of tests relevant. I maybe a small portion of buyers who are interested in tests however. I can buy both and given the reasonable cost of this great calibration disc it's not too hard on the wallet. :)

Scott,

May I ask what your planning to include and take out of the next version of the GetGray Calibration Disk ?

Scott,

May I ask what your planning to include and take out of the next version of the GetGray Calibration Disk ?I haven't decided to make a new one, yet. This one is working pretty well for almost everyone as is. There is one navigation bug in the NTSC version, but it's trivial and so far, no one has pointed it out. I am trying to make a test DVD for Oppo's. Only becasue the Oppo's are popular and the don't handle the chapter repeat very smoothly.

As for changes, I never did like the frequency bursts much since they didn't really fit the theme of the DVD as I just discussed (IMHO). I never was really happy with the multi-level colorbar pattern either. Probably add some duplicate patterns for using red and green filters like the current contrast and tint pattern. Possibly a color decoder adjustment pattern for devices with a color push that needs a happy midpoint adjustment, but I'm not sure how I'd do one. I'd probably include Ron's full screen grid pattern he recently donated. I think there are a couple more items on my maybe to-do list but I'm not where it is.

No timeframe, not anytime soon for sure, and it would be a different DVD (i.e. version 2) to start the process all over again and assist in keeping the server alive. Probably start a new thread since this one is pretty huge as it is.

Meanwhile I am watching the pro level HD-DVD and BR authoring tools, like the one the GetGray DVD is made with. Also the various HD encoders. The authoring tool of choice runs well over $15,000. That would take a lot of donations to break even so I'm in no hurry to run out and make that investment (yet :)). I'd rather wait and see which will become more popular, but that may drag out for a long time as it looks today.

Best, Scott

Scott,

I was hoping that you would be able to change the lip sync pattern a little. I think quite a few scalers and processors now actually are variable in delay depending on the picture displayed. As most of us are watching Film or video source, the delay is at its worse when film or video source are displayed. I was hoping that you could overlay both video and film source picture in addition to the ping pong like pattern you are currently using? This would help to ascertain the delay introduced so we can find a happy medium point?

Thanks
Oliver

As it is built literally a frame at a time, I'm not sure it's possible to do it with the tools I have at my disposal. I don't think I can, but I'll think about it.

May I add my suggestion to add the one missing tool to make the disc universal to CRT's as well: A Contrast Pattern for adjustment to evade blooming.

:D

Maybe, but then it's missing convergence, at least. And, by the time I manage to do it all CRT's may be gone :-)

How can I get this disc?? I really want to check it out.

"And, by the time I manage to do it all CRT's may be gone :-)"

I seriously doubt that ! :D

BTW.... most CRT's these days cannot even use an external convergence grid for alignment, only for secondary check....

"And, by the time I manage to do it all CRT's may be gone :-)"

I seriously doubt that ! :D

BTW.... most CRT's these days cannot even use an external convergence grid for alignment, only for secondary check....But you didn't know when I planned on making another one :D;)

touche.... ;)

touche.... ;)But it was good input, and appreciated :)

REFLEX -- Go back a couple of posts. The site is www.calibrate.tv. Go there and read about how to get it. Also, scroll down the page and download the "Instructions" and read them. If you can understand how to use the patterns, then send your contibution in as instructed on that site. Most folks get the THX "glasses" from http://www.co-store.com/thx, click on the "Optimizer Glasses" link.

I haven't decided to make a new one, yet. This one is working pretty well for almost everyone as is. There is one navigation bug in the NTSC version, but it's trivial and so far, no one has pointed it out. I am trying to make a test DVD for Oppo's. Only becasue the Oppo's are popular and the don't handle the chapter repeat very smoothly.

As for changes, I never did like the frequency bursts much since they didn't really fit the theme of the DVD as I just discussed (IMHO). I never was really happy with the multi-level colorbar pattern either. Probably add some duplicate patterns for using red and green filters like the current contrast and tint pattern. Possibly a color decoder adjustment pattern for devices with a color push that needs a happy midpoint adjustment, but I'm not sure how I'd do one. I'd probably include Ron's full screen grid pattern he recently donated. I think there are a couple more items on my maybe to-do list but I'm not where it is.

No timeframe, not anytime soon for sure, and it would be a different DVD (i.e. version 2) to start the process all over again and assist in keeping the server alive. Probably start a new thread since this one is pretty huge as it is.

Meanwhile I am watching the pro level HD-DVD and BR authoring tools, like the one the GetGray DVD is made with. Also the various HD encoders. The authoring tool of choice runs well over $15,000. That would take a lot of donations to break even so I'm in no hurry to run out and make that investment (yet :)). I'd rather wait and see which will become more popular, but that may drag out for a long time as it looks today.

Best, Scott

Scott,

If you need a tester for an oppo version let me know. I donated a while back and still use your GetGray with my OPPO. It jitters,but it isn't that bad (I think I sent you a listing of specific screens quite a while ago). In any event, OPPO has also upgraded FW since then.

I also have a CRT ( I know, with an oppo and a crt, why did I even try the GetGrey? I actually use it in combo with Avia and I like some of the setting screeens in teh Get Grey).

Rick

I have a problem with this disc.

I got a Panasonic TV-50PHD6UY and i can't set contrast with the bar pattern on the disc.

No matter what setting i have on contrast the bars remain the same in the pattern.

What's up with this?

This has been discussed before. Some player/TV combinations will not allow you to clip peak whites.

For those you need to adjust contrast until you don't see any colour shifting. The colour bar pattern is useful for this.