Can I download it at work, copy it to a USB drive and burn it at home? I have a horribly slow connection at home.Sure. You download a zip file that contains an iso file. You can copy that zip file (or the iso) to anything you like to transport it to a pc with a DVD burner. Including a USB.

I downloaded my copy ...<snip>... Much thanks to Scott, Claus and all of the other contributors for a great tool, keep up the good work.You are welcome. Thanks for the positive input. Scott

Ordered the GetGray DVD yesterday, received my Download link today.
Thank you, can't wait to give it a try. I'll post my thoughts after.

GetGray,

Is it possible that the image from my xbox360 hd add on drive is being corrupted when the input is converted from component to hdmi in my Onkyo receiver? As I said when I put the GetGray disc in my Oppo it worked like a champ, but that was an all digital signal to my projector. Oppo(DVI)-->(HDMI)Onkyo(HDMI)-->Mitsu Projector. If I have time this weekend I'll drag all the xbox stuff downstairs and connect it to my DLP TV via component to see if I get the same clipping issue.

Steve

GetGray,

Is it possible that the image from my xbox360 hd add on drive is being corrupted when the input is converted from component to hdmi in my Onkyo receiver? As I said when I put the GetGray disc in my Oppo it worked like a champ, but that was an all digital signal to my projector. Oppo(DVI)-->(HDMI)Onkyo(HDMI)-->Mitsu Projector. If I have time this weekend I'll drag all the xbox stuff downstairs and connect it to my DLP TV via component to see if I get the same clipping issue.

SteveDefinately. Anytime you have a conversion going on you have a high possibility of getting the levels out of whack. Especially with a device not made explicitly for playing video DVD's. Plus you are having to rely on a transcoding process in the receiver to muddy the waters. Best case, the player reads the digital, converts to analog, then the Onkyo converts to digital (guessing RGB), then sends the the PJ via HDMI, and the PJ can fiddle with it further. That is at least 2 digital/analog conversions pule the possibility of video/PC level issues. Not to mention adjustments (e.g brightness contrast) each individual device may add to the signal to "help".

And of course the important thing here is, that if the images from the reference DVD are not showing up right out the other end (PJ), then any "real" DVD movie material will be wrong on the display in exactly the same way.

How long does it usually take to get the download link? It is 2:30 now and I was hoping to download it tonight before I left from work at 5:30.

Not trying to be a turd, I'm just wondering... ;)

How long does it usually take to get the download link? It is 2:30 now and I was hoping to download it tonight before I left from work at 5:30. Per website, please allow 24 hours. I'd estimate average time is about 3 hours though I do not commit to that. Depends on time of day, proximity to computer, etc.

I just got the email! That was quick.

Sorry for being impatient. :)

Ordered and downloaded getgray several days ago and am very pleased. Although I have owned DVE and Avia for several years, I became really interested in getgray after learning about ColorHCFR. Having purchased an OPtix DPT-94 colorimeter several years ago I saw an opportunity to finally calibrate color temp to D64 and adjust the R/G/B controls on the Vizio GV47L LCD 1080p TV for proper tracking over IRE 30 to 80.

This worked like a charm. The getgray really facilitates pattern selection using my Panny S97 player (one of the best available 2 years ago). I now have the color bars in HCFR at or near 100% and showing a Delta e of less than 3 for both the 80% and 30% patterns. Interestingly my result using custom color temp mode was almost the same as the 'warm' preset..
Having an accurate gray scale I then tweaked the color decoder using 'color' and 'tint' (only controls available for this on the V47) to get R/G/B and C/M/Y as close as possible on the CIE diagram with acceptable results.

Your pattern disc save me a lot of time since I had to repeat the color decoder tests numerous times and constantly change patterns.

Next project, tackle the Sharp LC-37D5U in the bedroom. This TV has CMS values for level, hue and saturation. Should be fun.

Great disc, well worth the small contribution, you have done the TVholics community a service with your efforts.
And kudos to the French group for HCFR as well.

Final suggestion, HCFR secondary color tests asks for Y/C/M in that order, 75% patterns on getgrey are in C/M/Y order. No biggie but having the same order would save a bit of time. Some DVD players are a bit slow backing up.

Final suggestion, HCFR secondary color tests asks for Y/C/M in that order, 75% patterns on getgrey are in C/M/Y order. No biggie but having the same order would save a bit of time. Some DVD players are a bit slow backing up.Thanks, good input. I have a couple requests related to the HCFR.

Final suggestion, HCFR secondary color tests asks for Y/C/M in that order, 75% patterns on getgrey are in C/M/Y order. No biggie but having the same order would save a bit of time. Some DVD players are a bit slow backing up.

Ha Ha! I use Colorfacts, and it asks for secondaries in the order of C/Y/M.:) Seems everyone uses R/G/B for the primaries, but there's no standard sequence at all for the secondaries.

Ha Ha! I use Colorfacts, and it asks for secondaries in the order of C/Y/M.:) Seems everyone uses R/G/B for the primaries, but there's no standard sequence at all for the secondaries.

In that case we should leave the order of C/Y/M alone. I am sure getgray has higher priority changes in mind for the next iteration.

BTW I had blue in the V47 at 123, way off, now at 92. Unless my DPT-94 is defective, doubtful since it does a great job on my computer LCD monitors, it shows just how difficult it is to set luminance channel temp and tracking by eye. At least for me.

Assuming you don't want to spend the big bucks for Avia Pro or DVE Pro, it is hard to say. Both Avia and DVE have pros and cons. They both have CRT contract (blooming) patterns so choose your evil :-). Considerations I'd make if I had to choose are Avia - easy to navigate, animated patterns, no BTB. DVE - has BTB

Hi Scott ,

With all the requests from CRT users and possibly Plasma users , what would be involved in creating a Pattern , on your disc , to correctly set Contrast for these Displays ?

Since all your current Patterns and Navigation are highly appreciated , we of course would like you to provide a "Blooming" pattern as well :D .

Scott_R_K

Scott, It just hasn't been much of a demand for one. If I made another one tomorrow, I might add one, but it's a pretty big deal to reauthor one, and as CRT's are slowly going away (sorry), it hasn't been much or a priority.

Hey I just found out about your disc this evening (A friend brought his over)
pretty cool!

Is there an HD-dvd version coming? Is that even necessary (Are the HD-dvd and SD-DVD color spaces, black and white levels, all the same?

Quick question regarding the color windows/fields on the disc. What should the reported RGB make-up be?

I ask because I'm using GetGray to calibrate my HTPC and I have a feeling I need to make some changes to my video cards video color controls, as ColorCop is not reporting the values I think I should be getting.

I'm basing it on the assumption that 75% amplitude should be 180 for the primary in question with 16 for the value of the secondaries, and 100% should be 235 for the primary in question and 16 for the secondaries. This based on the fact that 75% white is reported as 180.

So 75% green should be:
R - 16
G - 180
B- 16

100% green should be:
R - 16
G - 235
B- 16

Is this correct? If not, what should I be getting? Thanks!

Hey I just found out about your disc this evening (A friend brought his over)
pretty cool!

Is there an HD-dvd version coming? Is that even necessary (Are the HD-dvd and SD-DVD color spaces, black and white levels, all the same?Scott answered this question here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8832681&&#post8832681.

There are color differences, SD uses Rec. 601, and HD uses Rec. 709. See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7994545&&#post7994545 , in this thread, for the information.

As GetGray (Scott) said, there are no HD_DVD burners out available anyway, Pioneer has a Blu-Ray burner, but it is expensive.

However, the present version can be used in HD-DVD or Blu-Ray players, but they will still use the Rec. 601 colors, and will not calibrate your HD player for use with HD discs. For that you will need the HD versions of either AVIA or DVE, when they finally get released.

Eventually, Scott may come out with a new HD version (for a new contribution), but he needs to get the (very expensive) tools first.

I hope this answers your questions.

Thanks Claus,

now I'm in a holding patten - Supposedly HD-DVD DVE should be coming out any day now. Do I wait for that or get the getgray now?

Is this correct? If not, what should I be getting? Thanks!Those are the correct RGB's for video levels (16-235).

Is there an HD-dvd version coming? Is that even necessary (Are the HD-dvd and SD-DVD color spaces, black and white levels, all the same?Not soon, swamped with other projects. All Gray patterns (gray windows, brightness and contrast, gray ramps, etc) are identical in both color spaces. RGB transforms (the formulas used to calculate the RGB to YCbCr values in the mpeg file) are Rec601/SD so the colors would be slightly off if the decoder was applying a rec701 decoding algorithm to the rec601 values. But, if the player can properly play a standard DVD, then a SD reference disc could still be used to calibrate that part of the device. Otherwise, all standard DVD's would be wrong, too. Not sure if any of them play both or not, but I think they do. Whether or not they do it right is another thing though :)

Quick question regarding the color windows/fields on the disc. What should the reported RGB make-up be?

I ask because I'm using GetGray to calibrate my HTPC and I have a feeling I need to make some changes to my video cards video color controls, as ColorCop is not reporting the values I think I should be getting.

I'm basing it on the assumption that 75% amplitude should be 180 for the primary in question with 16 for the value of the secondaries, and 100% should be 235 for the primary in question and 16 for the secondaries. This based on the fact that 75% white is reported as 180.

So 75% green should be:
R - 16
G - 180
B- 16

100% green should be:
R - 16
G - 235
B- 16

Is this correct? If not, what should I be getting? Thanks!

For video, digital 16 is 0% (i.e. black) and digital 235 is 100%. Therefore, 75% green includes zero (i.e. digital 16) red and blue. You can calculate intermediate digital values as follows:

For example, 75% drive ≡ 0.75 x (235-16) +16 = 180.25 ≈ 180

50% drive ≡ 0.5 x (235-16) +16 = 125.5 ≈ 126


-Steve

I downloaded the file without a problem using imgburn as suggested. I used a CD-R which worked on my PC but not with my DVD players. I re-burned to a DVD-R (Memorex) which did work but I was informed by Scott that this is not the best media to use so I'll do it again with the recommended media. Anyway, after going through a few interations over the course of an hour I have to say that this disc is definitely the easiest to use and best of all much more accurate than the DVE disc that have been using over the last year. You can really tweak in your adjustments and the Color & Tint patterns are just super for dialing in. I found that compared to DVE I never quite had the contrast adjusted properly, not a problem with this disc at all. Thanks Scott and the rest of the team for a great product.

I downloaded the file without a problem using imgburn as suggested. I used a CD-R which worked on my PC but not with my DVD players. I re-burned to a DVD-R (Memorex) which did work but I was informed by Scott that this is not the best media to use so I'll do it again with the recommended media. Anyway, after going through a few interations over the course of an hour I have to say that this disc is definitely the easiest to use and best of all much more accurate than the DVE disc that have been using over the last year. You can really tweak in your adjustments and the Color & Tint patterns are just super for dialing in. I found that compared to DVE I never quite had the contrast adjusted properly, not a problem with this disc at all. Thanks Scott and the rest of the team for a great product.

Whats the recommended media? I used DVD-R...

Recommend- Taiyo Yuden Media DVD-R, avail cheap enough at
www.rima.com. I think cdrom2go.com has it too, not sure about that
one.

OK...I am still not seeing a difference in media type. I am using a no name spindle pack of DVD-R I bought from CompUSA at Christmas time. Why change what type of DVD-R?

Its all about the ISO image right? Not the actual hardware media...

The only real difference, in media, is in how many data errors crop up in the resulting DVD video (and in how long the errors will remain below the limit tolerated by your DVD player). I'm using cheap GC (= "Great Quality" :rolleyes: ) DVD-R discs from Fry's Electronics. They seem to work well (and seem to last - some 5-year old ones still have readable data on them). I do find that I have to use the slower writing speeds (2x for a "4x" disc) for compatability with cheap DVD players.

The Taiyo Yuden Media is supposed to be the best, for long term storage. However, if the Caldisc plays, on cheap media, then the test patterns will work just fine for calibration purposes. You can always burn another copy, if it stops working.

I'be been using your GetGray disk for some time now, and put a recommendation for your disk to other AVSForum users at the Samsung DLP Tech Link thread I maintain. (See my sig line).

Kudos!

Doc

:cool:

Kudos!, Doc Thanks, Doc.

Reading the website, I see that the makers are very proud that the GetGray DVD contains no "hand holding videos," but does that mean the DVD is still fully useable by an amateur who seeks to get the best picture quality out of his DLP projector? Looking at the example patterns, I can't tell exactly what I'm supposed to do with them on first examination, so that's why I'm asking this question.

Looking at the example patterns, I can't tell exactly what I'm supposed to do with them on first examination, so that's why I'm asking this question.The documentation has more information about the patterns and their usage: http://www.calibrate.tv/docs/GetGrayCalDiscReadme.zip. For some it is enough. The 4 fundamental adjustments of brightness, contrast, color and tint are fairly straightforward. YMMV.

GetGray is definitely targetted at a more experienced user.

That being said, the manual is pretty explanatory and there is a wealth of information available (like on this forum) about what you need to do.

Reading the website, I see that the makers are very proud that the GetGray DVD contains no "hand holding videos," but does that mean the DVD is still fully useable by an amateur who seeks to get the best picture quality out of his DLP projector? Looking at the example patterns, I can't tell exactly what I'm supposed to do with them on first examination, so that's why I'm asking this question.

My only previous experience was with the THX Optimizer, included free on certain discs. After a practice period with that, I found GetGray straightforward. Basic calibration only requires three patterns. Learning to see the patterns and make the adjustments requires some practice, but that will be the same for all these discs.

-Bill

I plan to use the GetGray disc in my Toshiba XA2 HD DVD player to do grayscale calibration. Do I have to worry about any issues from the fact that the patterns are being upconverted? Can this change the color of gray somehow in the process? Wouldn't want to think I was calibrating to D65 but have it turn out that somehow the upconversion process was changing the color of the pattern... Any concerns here?

The biggest concern is that if your TV is expecting data encoded for Rec 709 (HD standard) and the XA2 has done the proper colourspace twisting. This should only affect things with colour.

The other thing that might be a problem is that the calibration may only be valid for SD-DVD since it's possible that the decoding for HD-DVD will result in different values for grey.

lovingdvd, jvincent -- I refer you to this earlier post, in this thread, by Ron (dr1394): Post #1077 - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7994545&&#post7994545. The only difference between Rec. 709 (HD) and Rec. 601 (SD) are the color values. The grayscale should not change for either system. The XA2 should properly decode the SD GetGray Caldisc and give you the correct grayscale and the correct color setup for SD DVDs. The only remaining issue is the XA2's color settings for HD-DVDs.

Reading the website, I see that the makers are very proud that the GetGray DVD contains no "hand holding videos," but does that mean the DVD is still fully useable by an amateur who seeks to get the best picture quality out of his DLP projector? Looking at the example patterns, I can't tell exactly what I'm supposed to do with them on first examination, so that's why I'm asking this question.If you have read the "ReadMe" and decide to get it, don't hesitate.

If you do run into problems or get a little confused, you can send me a PM and I will try to walk you through using it.

The documentation has more information about the patterns and their usage: some it is enough. The 4 fundamental adjustments of brightness, contrast, color and tint are fairly straightforward. YMMV.

I read somewhere in this forum that this is not working for VIZIO plasma TV?? is it true?? If true do we know why it should not work with vizio tvs?? I understand that it should work with any tv. I am planning to use this on my vizio 60". Anything i need to be aware of??

Thanks

The disc is fine for all digital TVs in the sense that the patterns on it are standard reference levels. They are applicable to all brands of TV / DVD player.

What you may have read is that a Vizion TV may not be capable of making the whiter than white bars disappear. This is not a problem with the disc but rather a limitation of the player/display.

I have been trying to read as much of the old info as possible but have not found what I am looking for. Please bear with me if this a stupid question. I do not have a DVD burner of any kind. Does that mean I am out of luck for getting the GetGray calibration DVD. Do you offer packaged DVDs? Can someone else burn me one if not?

I have been trying to read as much of the old info as possible but have not found what I am looking for. Please bear with me if this a stupid question. I do not have a DVD burner of any kind. Does that mean I am out of luck for getting the GetGray calibration DVD. Do you offer packaged DVDs? Can someone else burn me one if not?


well yes, but do you have any friends with burners???

I could probably find someone with a burner but how would payment work?

I could probably find someone with a burner but how would payment work?

Just go to the website..all the info is there..1st page

Where is RockFall, IL, I live in chicago area

I downloaded GetGray and successfully burned a DVD from the .ISO using Roxio Easy CD Creator/DVD Edition. No problems at all.

The small file size is nice since I had to copy the files to a CDR to get them onto the machine with the DVD Burner.

The 5% gray scale steps are super. It's what I was looking for to better tell what my DLP was doing at high video levels. The other discs out there just don't provide enough feedback.

I was able to see that the display is actually quite non linear when it goes into saturation. Instead of simply clipping at some point, the brightness actually increases in a final large step. As displayed with the 5% bars, the bar after the last "linear" bar is actually up more like 7% to 10% This "trip" point also has a small temperature characteristic.

I also noted that the Alignment/Overscan pattern seems to be more accurate than some. The old VE DVD indicates that the alignment on this display is about 2% or 3% high. With GetGray it's perfect. This also agrees with the pattern provided by INHD on Sunday morning. :-)

I also get a slight jump on the repeat with my Oppo 981 but not on a PC. Apparently the Oppo has an issue with keeping the stream totally smooth. It's not something that really bothered me though.

As for not having narration, the manual provided is pretty darned good.

It's certainly the best quality DVD video I have ever seen. It's not a pattern generator but it's very good!

Larry

Where is RockFall, IL, I live in chicago area

I'm in the burbs of Chicago myself. But as for Rock Falls, I'd say probably the best way to get a general rough idea of where it is located, is it's very close to where US Route 30 and IL Route 40 intersect with each other and not far from Interstate 88. Or in another way. If you started out at Rockford, and you were going to drive 'straight as the crow flys' over to Peoria, it would work out to being almost 1/2 way between Rockford and Peoria.

Rock Falls is about 2 hours west of downtown Chicago. The East-West Tollway becomes I-88 about ten miles before you come to the Rock Falls exit.

Please limit conversations in the thread to the DVD. Hundreds of people from all over the world monitor it and get mail every time a post is made. PM's work great for off-topic general conversation. :D:D

Hi Scott/Claus/all - I have a question that has been asked in different ways in previous posts after doing a Search, but I never found a definite answer, so here goes:

Which Blue filter is correct for Getgray? OK, I know the answer is THX glasses, and I have a pair on order, but I currently have the Avia filters, the DVE card and the Blue filter glasses from Colorfacts. I think the Lee #071 filter is also a correct filter from previous posts but I don't have that one either.

OK, I have been calibrating a new Pannasonic plasma and just went thru a Mitsubishi HD1000u. On BOTH devices using the Colorfacts glasses (given to me by Mark Hunter, so a person I trust with a lot of calibration credentials and I thought I read somewhere that these were the same as THX glasses but I can't confirm) I can't get saturation and tint quite right for either both or one of the two (though close). I switched over to the Avia disc and dialed the settings in perfectly!?? Same using the Avia blue filter. But, out of curiosity I pulled out the DVE card (and yes, this blue filter is noticeably darker than the CF glasses and Avia film) but bingo I could exactly dial in color and tint using the Getgray patterns........

Is there a definitive answer as to which filter is correct? The different filters/calibration discs combinations definitely produce different color and tint settings. Thanks.

In theory the various blue filters are all supposed to be the same, but in practice that's not really possible. Different manufacturers will have subtley different colours.

As you noted, the DVE filters are generally darker than the others and depending on storage conditions it's also possible for the colour of the filters to change with time even if they were a perfect match to begin with.

I am remiss in this but I purchased, d/l’d, burned and used GetGray several months ago. No muss, no fuss- Works as advertised and is a great addition to the test-disk library. Great docs too.

Thanks Gray!

Dave

Hi John - yes these film based filters can change over time based on storage conditions. I do keep all of mine inside a DVD case and AC'd home. That said, subtle color differences are not a good thing - there should be just one standard, no?

Getting back to my main question - which of these three filters is (most) correct for Getgray as they yield different results?! Or are there known encoding differences in the Avia/DVE/Getgray discs that dictate slightly different shaded blue filters be used?

Getting back to my main question - which of these three filters is (most) correct for Getgray as they yield different results?! Or are there known encoding differences in the Avia/DVE/Getgray discs that dictate slightly different shaded blue filters be used?

Filters are not specific to calibration discs, nor are patterns specifically designed for different filters. Colorbars are colorbars. Filters try to filter out and isolate a display's primary, so in that sense filters can be more or less appropriate depending on the SPD of the display's primaries.

If you want to try a optical glass filter, which should be a lot more stable than the fragile filters that you get from THX/Avia/DVE. You can try finding a place that handles filters for photographers. And ask if they can get you a photographic Kodak/Lee filter Deep Blue Tricolor #47B. And for anyone that would like to have optical glass versions of all 3 RGB filters for use with the 'other' commercially sold calibration disks. Then for the red and green filters you would also need to get the following Kodak/Lee filters, Deep Red Tricolor #29 and Deep Green Tricolor #61.

Hi John - yes these film based filters can change over time based on storage conditions. I do keep all of mine inside a DVD case and AC'd home. That said, subtle color differences are not a good thing - there should be just one standard, no?

Getting back to my main question - which of these three filters is (most) correct for Getgray as they yield different results?! Or are there known encoding differences in the Avia/DVE/Getgray discs that dictate slightly different shaded blue filters be used?

I find the DVE blue filter to be incredibly hard to use. I've had better success with the Avia filter. I'm still waiting on my THX filter.


Mark

Mark - by hard do you mean because the filters are so dark, or it is difficult to achieve good color/tint settings?

Johnla - I remember reading a couple of posts that debated what the "correct" Lee filter was. I thought it was stated that the KODAK #47B and the Lee #071 are indentical, and I believe Claus said the THX glasses are the same filter and all 3 are "correct".

So does this mean that the AVIA and the DVE filters are incorrect????? ( I thought this was going to be a straight forward answer - sorry! )

Mark - by hard do you mean because the filters are so dark, or it is difficult to achieve good color/tint settings?

It is because it is much darker than the Avia filter. With the DVE filter, I tend to set saturation too high.

Mark

I just started playing with GetGray and am attempting to set brightness and contrast. My problem is that I can't make the Whiter-than-White bars disappear. I've played with the Brightness, Contrast (Picture), Iris, Power Saver and Gamma settings, and the WtW bars are always visible. And it's not that they're just barely visible - they really stand out. What does this mean?

I'm trying to calibrate a Sony XBR2 LCOS TV, and am seeing this problem with both an old Phillips DVD player and a new Xbox360 HD-DVD player, both connected via component cables.

Thanks for your help!

EDIT: I also have trouble with the BtB. The only way to make the BtB bars disappear is to reduce Brightness to the point where none of the bars are visible. I'm very confused.

Here's an image that shows what happens when the wrong matrix is used to decode 75% color bars:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=32137

Otherwise, everything is the same. You could author your disc in HD by just using the correct RGB to YCbCr conversion and scaling everything to 1920x1080 or 1280x720.

Ron

Ron, or anybody else, this link seems to no longer work. Does anyone have a picture of what happens when the wrong matrix is used? Thanks.

Mark - by hard do you mean because the filters are so dark, or it is difficult to achieve good color/tint settings?

Johnla - I remember reading a couple of posts that debated what the "correct" Lee filter was. I thought it was stated that the KODAK #47B and the Lee #071 are indentical, and I believe Claus said the THX glasses are the same filter and all 3 are "correct".

So does this mean that the AVIA and the DVE filters are incorrect????? ( I thought this was going to be a straight forward answer - sorry! )

Those recommendations that I posted for the Kodak/Lee filters, come straight from from the FAQ's from AVIA. Those are the ones that they say to use, as they 'might' give you slightly more accuracy, compared to the rather flimsy ones that come supplied by them and others. But they also say that there are no such thing as a perfect set of filters to use.


http://www.ovationmultimedia.com/avia_faq.html


"The Red, Green and Blue Filters Allow Some Other Colors to be Visible
The red, green, and blue color filters supplied with AVIA DVD were chosen to be as color selective as practical. Unfortunately, no filters are perfect color separators. They all leak a small amount of the other primary colors. The filters supplied with AVIA meet or exceed the selectivity of filters supplied with other video calibration products and serve well for most users. However, if you need even better color separation, consider doing one of the following:

1. Place a cap on your three gun projector's other two color guns to achieve perfect separation. This is the most accurate method of isolating each color.
2. Use the display's color gun "cut-off" switches to perfectly separate the primary colors. This requires information from a service manual. Attempt this only if you are skilled in television service work.
3. Obtain glass optical filters from a photographic supply shop. The following photographic Kodak/Lee filters may provide better separation of colors but even these are not perfect.

Deep Red Tricolor #29
Deep Green Tricolor #61
Deep Blue Tricolor #47B

As I have posted i several times, the correct Kodak Filter numbers are:
Deep Red Tricolor #29
Deep Green Tricolor #61
Deep Blue Tricolor #47B

The correct Lee Filter numbers are:
Tokyo Blue = #071
Primary Red = #106
Primary Green = #139

Both the Blue AVIA filter and the THX "glasses" appera to be the same as the Kodak Deep Blue Tricolor #47B.

Thanks (again) Claus. OK, then it appears that the AVIA, Kodak, Lee and THX glasses are confirmed accurate. I believe the Colorfacts glasses are equivalent to the THX glasses but still looking to get an explicit answer. That means the consensus is that the DVE card filters are too dark/not accurate (at least for the Blue filter).

That said, then it highlights this question I had in my original post - I could not get a 100% color and tint setting with the Avia/Colorfacts filters, but could with the DVE filter. Would this mean that the white level is off (RBG gains/offsets) on my Panny plasma?

As I have posted i several times, the correct Kodak Filter numbers are:
Deep Red Tricolor #29
Deep Green Tricolor #61
Deep Blue Tricolor #47B

The correct Lee Filter numbers are:
Tokyo Blue = #071
Primary Red = #106
Primary Green = #139

Both the Blue AVIA filter and the THX "glasses" appera to be the same as the Kodak Deep Blue Tricolor #47B.I don't have a 47B Kodak, but I can say the THX is identical to Lee #071. The Kodak's can be had for a premium price from Edmunds Scientific Optical division. 'bout $40-$50 each IIRC. Personally, I prefer the glasses.

I just started playing with GetGray and am attempting to set brightness and contrast. My problem is that I can't make the Whiter-than-White bars disappear. I've played with the Brightness, Contrast (Picture), Iris, Power Saver and Gamma settings, and the WtW bars are always visible. And it's not that they're just barely visible - they really stand out. What does this mean?

I'm trying to calibrate a Sony XBR2 LCOS TV, and am seeing this problem with both an old Phillips DVD player and a new Xbox360 HD-DVD player, both connected via component cables.

Thanks for your help!

EDIT: I also have trouble with the BtB. The only way to make the BtB bars disappear is to reduce Brightness to the point where none of the bars are visible. I'm very confused.

Hi, sorry to be a pest, but I didn't get an answer to this. I read a bunch of the older posts and the answer seems to be that some TVs can't display BtB or WtW while other TVs can't NOT display BtB and WtW. I understand how a TV might not be able to display them, but what does it mean when I can't make them go away? Is this a flaw of the TV, or is this a feature that I should be happy to have?

How do I know how to adjust my TV, specifically the contrast? The picture seems to look best with the contrast cranked up to Max. Anything lower looks dull. I understand that Max can skew my colors, but if I adjust my RGB gains and cuts can't I get rid of that error? BTW, I have a Spyder and HCFR software, so maybe I should be using that to adjust the contrast.

There's just so many options, and every time I think I understand how it all works I get confused again.

With reference to the pleas for an HD-DVD and/or BlueRay version of GetGrey, how about a version which is SD encoded as present (since the HD tools are unavailable for now), but with the correct color matrix for HD material ?

:cool:

With reference to the pleas for an HD-DVD and/or BlueRay version of GetGrey, how about a version which is SD encoded as present (since the HD tools are unavailable for now), but with the correct color matrix for HD material ?

:cool:It is the lack of said tools that prevents it. Even if I did it, it would only work for a device that blindly (and thus incorrectly) read a SD DVD and applied a HD color matrix. Do they? Surely not, but I wouldn't be surprised.

<snip>There's just so many options, and every time I think I understand how it all works I get confused again.Your question is really one of calibration, not one directly related to the DVD per se. Bill Blackwell had a nice writeup on calibration here somewhere, but start at his website www.calman.tv and see if it's there. As for the WTW/BTB issue, the best place to get a thorough understanding is via Chris's thread "goto guide for source settings".
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=4969789&&#post4969789

Briefly, it's not just the display, it's the whole video chain. I would prefer to have both BTB/WTW avail, but it is not the end of the world to not have them. Contrast can be a tougher one. Generally I adjust my digitals so I get it as bright as I can without clipping RGB (color shifts). If you get none, at the highest point, and the color is still accurate then in theory, that gives the greatest contrast ratio and is OK. Specific devices may have limitations though. I'm no plasma expert but I've heard driving them too high can be a issue. For the particular question of contrast on aparticular device/technology, if you start a thread referring to your set, or to it's technology, e.g. "setting constrast on my [brand name] [plamsa | lcd | etc]" then the experienced calibrators can give some more input. Personally, I would not mess with the RGB until you have a firm handle on what you are trying to do, while using a measuring device. And no matter what, be sure I didn't change anything that can't be changed back which can happen. Pressing "reset to factory default" or similar does not do what it implies sometimes. Careful...

Your question is really one of calibration, not one directly related to the DVD per se. Bill Blackwell had a nice writeup on calibration here somewhere, but start at his website www.calman.tv and see if it's there. As for the WTW/BTB issue, the best place to get a thorough understanding is via Chris's thread "goto guide for source settings".
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=4969789&&#post4969789

Briefly, it's not just the display, it's the whole video chain. I would prefer to have both BTB/WTW avail, but it is not the end of the world to not have them. Contrast can be a tougher one. Generally I adjust my digitals so I get it as bright as I can without clipping RGB (color shifts). If you get none, at the highest point, and the color is still accurate then in theory, that gives the greatest contrast ratio and is OK. Specific devices may have limitations though. I'm no plasma expert but I've heard driving them too high can be a issue. For the particular question of contrast on aparticular device/technology, if you start a thread referring to your set, or to it's technology, e.g. "setting constrast on my [brand name] [plamsa | lcd | etc]" then the experienced calibrators can give some more input. Personally, I would not mess with the RGB until you have a firm handle on what you are trying to do, while using a measuring device. And no matter what, be sure I didn't change anything that can't be changed back which can happen. Pressing "reset to factory default" or similar does not do what it implies sometimes. Careful...

Thanks for your comments. I'll check out the links above. And, BTW, I have used the SpyderTVPro software to adjust the RGB cuts and gains, and the picture looks very good. This TV has these adjustments in the user settings, so I don't have to mess with the service menu. I'll start a new thread regarding my TV. Thanks much!

Thanks (again) Claus. OK, then it appears that the AVIA, Kodak, Lee and THX glasses are confirmed accurate. I believe the Colorfacts glasses are equivalent to the THX glasses but still looking to get an explicit answer. That means the consensus is that the DVE card filters are too dark/not accurate (at least for the Blue filter).

That said, then it highlights this question I had in my original post - I could not get a 100% color and tint setting with the Avia/Colorfacts filters, but could with the DVE filter. Would this mean that the white level is off (RBG gains/offsets) on my Panny plasma?It is unclear if the DVE "Blue" filter is incorrect or not. It is definitely a different "color" to the human eye (relative to the Kodak #47B filter). However, when I set my Color & Tint with either the AVIA "Blue" filter or THX glasses and then check it with the DVE card's "Blue" filter (or vice versa), I do not get any difference in the settings on my LCD flat panel displays and LCD & DLP PJs.

Your Panasonic Plasma display my well be outputting light that is outside the normal visual spectrum (either some IR or UV). This light may well be blocked by the "darker" DVE filter, thus allowing you to properly set your display's Color & Tint. The DVE filters were developed for CRT's which use phosphors similar to those used in plasma sets. LCD and DLP panels don't use phosphors to produce color.

NOTE: The, above, comment is based on my Physics background and my somewhat limited knowledge optical theory and understanding of current display technologies.

Since you appear to get a better adjustment with the DVE "Blue" filter, I would stop worrying about it and continue to use the DVE filter. As I (and others) said, the filter appears different, it is not necessarily "incorrect" (that can't be established without extensive optical measurement equipment, and no one, AFIK, has published that measurement on these forums).

Hi, sorry to be a pest, but I didn't get an answer to this. I read a bunch of the older posts and the answer seems to be that some TVs can't display BtB or WtW while other TVs can't NOT display BtB and WtW. I understand how a TV might not be able to display them, but what does it mean when I can't make them go away? Is this a flaw of the TV, or is this a feature that I should be happy to have?

How do I know how to adjust my TV, specifically the contrast? The picture seems to look best with the contrast cranked up to Max. Anything lower looks dull. I understand that Max can skew my colors, but if I adjust my RGB gains and cuts can't I get rid of that error? BTW, I have a Spyder and HCFR software, so maybe I should be using that to adjust the contrast.

There's just so many options, and every time I think I understand how it all works I get confused again.

I too, just purchased the disc and tried to set up my panny 50-9UK plasma. Picture control does *nothing* to the white bars no matter what I try?

bob

I too, just purchased the disc and tried to set up my panny 50-9UK plasma. Picture control does *nothing* to the white bars no matter what I try?

bob

Same thing with my panny, WTW is always present so I now set contrast/gray scale with a meter. I get a very good contrast ratio between digital level 16 and 235 (1600:1) at a picture level of +15 (out of 30) so there is certainly no need to drive it all the way up unless your're in a really bright room. Btw, my 100 IRE reading is 110 cd/m^2 which I've read is a typical "studio" monitor level.

I too, just purchased the disc and tried to set up my panny 50-9UK plasma. Picture control does *nothing* to the white bars no matter what I try?

bob


Same on my 42inch 9UK. There is a "solution", at least with my configuration. On the Panasonic, if I turn off "Peak Limiter" and turn off "Power Save" and set "Picture" to zero, then adjust the white level using the "Input Level" control under "Advanced Settings".

Using "Input Level" you will have a wide range of control for wtw.

edit: the Panasonic manual states that "Input Level" only controls analog input, but that is apparently incorrect. I'm using HDMI input from a Oppo 981.

Using "Input Level" you will have a wide range of control for wtw.

Does the input level affect digital as well as analog inputs?

edit: On my panel (consumer model 600U), I can get WTW to go away via the service menu gain, but only for analog inputs. Start a new thread if you want to discuss more on this as it is not directly getgray related.

Same on my 42inch 9UK. There is a "solution", at least with my configuration. On the Panasonic, if I turn off "Peak Limiter" and turn off "Power Save" and set "Picture" to zero, then adjust the white level using the "Input Level" control under "Advanced Settings".

Using "Input Level" you will have a wide range of control for wtw.

edit: the Panasonic manual states that "Input Level" only controls analog input, but that is apparently incorrect. I'm using HDMI input from a Oppo 981.

So, after doing all those changes, is the picture overall still acceptable?


bob

Ok it's been 5 or 6 minutes since I purchased GetGray so where's the damn download link? :D

Wow that was quick! BTW I was just joking eh!

I purchased GetGray two days ago and have yet to receive the links. I have emailed GetGray still with no response.

scottyh42 -- That is unusual. Did you use PayPal (and is your account active)? Also, double check to make sure your ISP or Spam/Virus/Firewall programs aren't blocking his email to you.

Did you use his email address that is posted on www.calibrate.tv? As a backup, you could send him a PM, although he doesn't read his PMs promptly. He could also be on a business trip (with no access to his server - he does have a day job, his Caldisc is a hobby project, afterall).

If you still don't get a response, send me a PM and I will try to get in touch with him for you.

NOTE: The late winter (early spring) storm that hit the Eastern part of the US late last week, might have knocked out his server connection (or power to his house) also :eek:.

I did receive a response shortly after the post. I guess i just got a little anxious because of everyone saying they got the links within a few minutes. I have since been in touch with getgray a few times and apologize for the somewhat "nasty" post. The problem was with my email and not with getgray, anyway I will definitally let everyone know how the disc works out :)

So I just finished my first run with Getgray. Basically I did not change anything that Idid not already change using the AVIA disc, but I do have quite a few questions/issues. I apologize ahead of time but im somewhat new at this.

My TV is a Sony KDS60A2000. I started out with my Advanced Iris at Medium and Color temp at Nuetral.

1) I realize that I will need at least some sort of colorimeter to use any of the grayscale patterns and adjust the grayscale properly ( please correct me if im wrong), where would be the least expensive place to get one?
2) The brightness pattern was easy to do. I hit that right on the nose, however when adjusting the contrast I cannot get any of the white bars to dissapear. Let alone the +2,+5 bars. It basically just seems like the screen gets brighter and brighter, but I can still see all of the white lines. Setting my picture to 99 was the closest i got.
3) In the 5% step ramp the black portion blends in about 2 bars short of the 16 level with no distinction in the bars.
4) I Guess my TV has a Y/C delay in which it looks like ill be going into the service menu to correct this. In the pattern the bars 3 down line up correctly instead of 4 down. How vital is this?

Thanks in Advance

Hello, I have three questions about calibrating my Samsung flat panel LCD 720p/1080i HDTV with the GetGray disc.

I'm playing the disc with my "Oppo 970HD" DVD player through the HDMI output. The Oppo has a "HDMI color space" setting which gives options for either "RGB" or "YCbCr 4:4:4". Here are my questions: Which of these color space settings should I use when calibrating with the GetGray disc? Does it matter what resolution I play the disc at, for example 480p, 720p, or 1080i? Is it okay to stick with HDMI as opposed to Component output for the calibration?

I have searched this thread and found some information that relates to these issues but I have not come up with a definitive conclusion so any help would be greatly appreciated. Here are two quotes in particular that appear relevant and may help someone help me. Thank you very much.

Oppo has said that their players use 601 for 480 and 709 for the upscaled resolutions. They've just added RGB colorspace to the 981 for people who were have colorspace problems.

My images, while SD in resolution, still produce digital YCbCr decoded colors


On an unrelated note, I have tried the Avia disc and I would like to say GetGray appears to be much better. You can tell it's aimed specifically at digital television users, unlike Avia. It is also far more convenient with test patterns that don't run out after a certain length of time.

Hello, I have three questions about calibrating my Samsung flat panel LCD 720p/1080i HDTV with the GetGray disc.

I'm playing the disc with my "Oppo 970HD" DVD player through the HDMI output. The Oppo has a "HDMI color space" setting which gives options for either "RGB" or "YCbCr 4:4:4". Here are my questions: Which of these color space settings should I use when calibrating with the GetGray disc? Does it matter what resolution I play the disc at, for example 480p, 720p, or 1080i? Is it okay to stick with HDMI as opposed to Component output for the calibration?

You should use the settings you are going to use when viewing. HDMI if you are going to use HDMI. Resolution does matter, but again calibrate using the setting you'll use when playing discs.

"RGB" or "YCbCr 4:4:4": it shouldn't matter which you choose, but with some combinations of gear it does. Try both, trust your eyes.

-Bill

So I just finished my first run with Getgray. Basically I did not change anything that Idid not already change using the AVIA disc, but I do have quite a few questions/issues. I apologize ahead of time but im somewhat new at this.

My TV is a Sony KDS60A2000. I started out with my Advanced Iris at Medium and Color temp at Nuetral.

1) I realize that I will need at least some sort of colorimeter to use any of the grayscale patterns and adjust the grayscale properly ( please correct me if im wrong), where would be the least expensive place to get one?
2) The brightness pattern was easy to do. I hit that right on the nose, however when adjusting the contrast I cannot get any of the white bars to dissapear. Let alone the +2,+5 bars. It basically just seems like the screen gets brighter and brighter, but I can still see all of the white lines. Setting my picture to 99 was the closest i got.
3) In the 5% step ramp the black portion blends in about 2 bars short of the 16 level with no distinction in the bars.
4) I Guess my TV has a Y/C delay in which it looks like ill be going into the service menu to correct this. In the pattern the bars 3 down line up correctly instead of 4 down. How vital is this?

Thanks in Advance
Make sure any "automatic" PQ adusting things are turned off on the TV, except may the iris. By adjusting contrast you should be able to make the the white bars disappear, that's why I think something automatic is happening. I'm not familiar with your TV. There's nothing wrong with being able to see the WTW bars. In 3) 2 bars short on which side?

larry

I thought I had a problem too with getting rid of the whiter than white bars on my Samsung LN-S3251D. When I went through the blacker than black screen I configured my brightness to around 40/100 and then on the wtw there was no way I was getting rid of the wtw bars. I ended up really messing around with both contrast and brightness today and it turns out I can get rid of the wtw bars if I put my brightness all the way up to 90/100. I felt this would be way too bright but I watched some DVDs with this setting and it didn't seem too bad, and there was more detail in the blacks than I had been seeing before. I hesitate to leave the brightness that high but it does match the GetGray screens including the 5% steps screen and show more detail in movies. I have the energy saver setting to 3/4 so 90 bright is not as bright as it would be at full strength. The user having problems with this should try turning his brightness up way further than the blacker than black screen would suggest, and then see if the wtw bars go away.

Another noob question :)

How does the decoder differ from gray scale tracking?

Will GetGray help me check/adj my decoder if it's off?

I have a 9UK Panny plasma.


thx

bob

Just a couple of suggestions for the next release....

When you've got title screens, like for the 10% and 5% windows, put some identification in the text "10% gray windows" or something like that. Maybe I just hit the menu entry and I know where I am, but maybe I did that a while ago. Feedback is good....

I'd like to see gradient ramps for RGB too. You've got the 5% ramps, but gradient is good for those pesky in-between values.

And with that in mind, all the gradient ramps would be SO much cooler with ticks at the 5% marks. I love the ticks at 16 and 235, but major and minor ticks at the 10% and 5% values would be awesome.

It would also be cool if, when I hit the "menu" button on my remote I always came back to a menu I expect with the selection I expect highlighted. Just a slight nit to pick, there....

Another noob question :)

How does the decoder differ from gray scale tracking?

Will GetGray help me check/adj my decoder if it's off?

I have a 9UK Panny plasma.


thx

bobAdjustment of the Grayscale affects the color performance. Color adjusments do not affect the grayscale.

The Y/C Delay pattern lets you check the color decoder (see page 17 of the instructions). For most displays, you can't adjust the color decoder (it is a translation matrix and not generaly adjustable). Some displays do allow decoder tweeking, but it requires going into the Service Menu, which is not recommended for the inexperienced (you can make your display unwatchable very easily - with no way of recovering, unless you've written down ALL of the settings before doing any adjustments). Most Color Decoder errors are much smaller than the adjustment steps provide (again, see page 17 of the GetGray instructions).

Adjustment of the Grayscale affects the color performance. Color adjusments do not affect the grayscale.

The Y/C Delay pattern lets you check the color decoder (see page 17 of the instructions). For most displays, you can't adjust the color decoder (it is a translation matrix and not generaly adjustable). Some displays do allow decoder tweeking, but it requires going into the Service Menu, which is not recommended for the inexperienced (you can make your display unwatchable very easily - with no way of recovering, unless you've written down ALL of the settings before doing any adjustments). Most Color Decoder errors are much smaller than the adjustment steps provide (again, see page 17 of the GetGray instructions).

Claus, can you say a little more about the Y/C Delay Pattern? I read page 17, but I'm not sure what Y/C Delay actually means. I don't understand what it has to do with the color decoder. Y/C Delay seems to have more to do with location on the screen than the actual color. Thanks for your help!

where are the instructions?
:-)

They are included in the ISO (I think) and can be downloaded from the www.calibrate.tv web page (http://www.calibrate.tv/docs/GetGrayCalDiscReadme.zip).

thanks, more info that better.
haven't seen you around in a while

Yeah, I've been busy - looking into switching over to Linux OS. I've been letting others provide some answers.

Just a couple of suggestions for the next release.... Such input is quite on topic and good...

When you've got title screens, like for the 10% and 5% windows, put some identification in the text "10% gray windows" or something like that. Maybe I just hit the menu entry and I know where I am, but maybe I did that a while ago. Not clear on this one, please elaborate
I'd like to see gradient ramps for RGB too. You've got the 5% ramps, but gradient is good for those pesky in-between values.I had them at one time and took them out, don't remember why. Not for a technical reason, likely more of a level of value added vs clutter reason.
And with that in mind, all the gradient ramps would be SO much cooler with ticks at the 5% marks. I love the ticks at 16 and 235, but major and minor ticks at the 10% and 5% values would be awesome.Interesting idea. At least with the stepped ramps I suppose if it is off one might not be able to see where a transition was *supposed* to be. Will add to todo list.
It would also be cool if, when I hit the "menu" button on my remote I always came back to a menu I expect with the selection I expect highlighted. Just a slight nit to pick, there....All the menu behaviors are supposed to be right. Can you give me a specific example of which one isn't behaving as you expect?

Hmmm. I'm used to OT meaning "Off Topic", so let me know if this needs to move elsewhere, but since you ask...

For the title idea... I'm on the gray patterns menu, and I select 10% windows. Then I get distracted and wander off and do something else. When I come back I've got a screen that says "this is the start of a sequence", but I don't remember, did I hit 10% windows or 5%? So I either have to click forward a couple of times to see if I get 0, 5 or 0, 10, and then I have to hit back to get to 0%. Or I have to hit the menu button on the remote and wait for the menu to load and return to the window sequence I want. Since there's a title screen at the start of the sequence, why not add a line that tells me which sequence I'm on? Don't say "Starting gray window patterns", say "Starting 10% gray window patterns" or something like that.

As far as my suggestions about the gradient ramps, my personal application is that my TV has a gamma table that I'm trying to adjust, but that table has 32 entries. So its adjustment points don't really line up with the 5% windows. Sometimes I can see irregularities in the gamma on the gradient ramp that don't show up on the windows. But where are they? It turns out that 16 to 235 on my TV is 36 inches, so I hold a tape measure up to the screen and use distances to estimate percentages. Something tells me there ought to be a better way. :-)

Now, the menu button. My remote has two menu buttons: menu, and top menu. The top menu always takes me to the brightness/contrast, gray, color, etc. top menu. But sometimes I'll be in a gray pattern and hit menu, and it will bring up the color menu. Most of the time it's the gray menu like I'd expect it to be, but it's hit or miss which of the menu items will be highlighted. If I'm in the 10% or 5% windows, the highlighted item is usually the same window sequence I was in. But the other patterns don't usually bring me back to the menu item I was in. For instance if I'm in the ANSI contrast section, 10% full field is selected with I get the gray menu back....

Same on my 42inch 9UK. There is a "solution", at least with my configuration. On the Panasonic, if I turn off "Peak Limiter" and turn off "Power Save" and set "Picture" to zero, then adjust the white level using the "Input Level" control under "Advanced Settings".

Using "Input Level" you will have a wide range of control for wtw.

edit: the Panasonic manual states that "Input Level" only controls analog input, but that is apparently incorrect. I'm using HDMI input from a Oppo 981.


so, I had the same issue, just could not get the white bars to budge, without hitting the "input level" adjustment. Somehow, that doesn't seem right.

Hmmm. I'm used to OT meaning "Off Topic", Yes, sorry I meant ON topic, wasn't thinking when wrote OT, sorry, more later, gotta run.

.... Since there's a title screen at the start of the sequence, why not add a line that tells me which sequence I'm on? Don't say "Starting gray window patterns", say "Starting 10% gray window patterns" or something like that.I agree. On todo list.

As far as my suggestions about the gradient ramps, my personal application is that my TV has a gamma table that I'm trying to adjust, but that table has 32 entries. So its adjustment points don't really line up with the 5% windows. Sometimes I can see irregularities in the gamma on the gradient ramp that don't show up on the windows. But where are they? It turns out that 16 to 235 on my TV is 36 inches, so I hold a tape measure up to the screen and use distances to estimate percentages. Something tells me there ought to be a better way. :-)Hmmm. OK.

Now, the menu button. My remote has two menu buttons: menu, and top menu. The top menu always takes me to the brightness/contrast, gray, color, etc. top menu. But sometimes I'll be in a gray pattern and hit menu, and it will bring up the color menu. Most of the time it's the gray menu like I'd expect it to be, but it's hit or miss which of the menu items will be highlighted. If I'm in the 10% or 5% windows, the highlighted item is usually the same window sequence I was in. But the other patterns don't usually bring me back to the menu item I was in. For instance if I'm in the ANSI contrast section, 10% full field is selected with I get the gray menu back..I'll look into that. They should back out to where you were.

I'm just now getting on the GetGray train. Up to this point I've only had CRT based displays so I knew the disc wouldn't be of much use to me. But I knew the theory of pushing the blacker than black and the peak white into clipping on a digital display.

After burning the disc it only took me minutes to get my levels correct. I couldn't believe how easy it was. I've been playing with my Avia and DVE discs for the week I've had this new LCD. With them I got the set looking good, but now it looks excellent.

But enough with saying what everyone here already knows. I offer a tip for setting the Color/Tint controls without using a blue filter.

I've not read this whole thread, but I still see recent posts about which blue filter to use. This will not work with every set, but on the ones that it does it will make setting the color decoder as easy as setting the white and black levels.

If you display has separate RGB levels that are used to set the white point, get them to where you want. Then make note of your Red and Green values. Now pull up the Color/Tint pattern, and reduce the Red and Green settings to 0. Now you should only be seeing the Blue portion of the picture. There will be no R and G leaking like happens with all optical filters. Just move the Color and Tint controls until all the blue patches look the same. Then you can go back to your primary colors and set the Red and Green back to the original values which you recorded.

Like I said, this may not work on every set, so also record your Color and Tint before you go messing with them, so if things look bad after you restore your primaries you can just get things back to how you started. But on the sets where it does work you'll wonder why you ever tried to use a blue filter. (You can also judge the decoder's Red and Green processing by reducing all but the one you want to check and looking at the traditional color bar pattern.)

Injector -- Welcome to the GetGray club.

You have one error in your statments. Using the Color/Tint controls, you are not setting the "Color Decoder", you are setting the relative color intensities. The color decoder is basically a matrix (in the firmware) which maps the YCbCr video to the "correct" RGB values that are used by your display to show the picture.

Detailed information on the Color Decoder is discussed in other threads in this forum.

You are right in that your technique will not work on a lot of displays. It is the standard technique for CRT PJs, where you can mask off the red and green tubes, or on sets where the red & green signals can be turned off. I am surprised that your LCD display can actually shut off the red & green. Most LCDs will still output some (faint) light from the red & green pixels, even when the red and green controls are set to zero. I'll have to try that on my LCD flat panel TVs, to see what I get on them, relative to the "standard blue filter technique".

Thanks for the correction. I had to look up information on the tint/phase control again. You are right, while the tint setting controls the phase of the color signal presented to the color decoder it does not directly interact with the decoding of the RGB primaries.

My introduction to video calibration comes from a short stint working in a video production facility. During that time I poured over NTSC documentation. It is just how my brain works--even if I'm fiddling with end user controls I need to understand what is happening behind the scenes.

All the color monitors in the studio or post always had a "blue only" button. So I now naturally look for a way to have the display cut the red and green when I go to set color and tint.

I just double checked with my LCD (a Viewsonic N3252w, by the way) and running all three color primary controls to 0 does result in a totally black picture. So 0 means zero at least on this set.

That's the advantage of studio monitors. It sounds like your Viewsonic has a real plus on that score. My LR flat panel LCD TV is an LG 32LC2D. - it provides PQ very close to my old Sony 27" CRT.

I have recently bought my first LCD TV and looking to get the most out of it, I've been reading up on calibration. I guess what I'm really looking to do is just adjusting...not really calibrating. Just the basics...brightness, contrast, saturation and tint. So I've got the GetGray disc and started playing.

This is probably a really basic question, but will this disc work for any video connection? Composite, S-Video, Component, HDMI? The reason I ask is that I had it hooked up through Component and got the brightness and contrast dialed in pretty easily...I don't have my THX glasses, so saturation and tint will have to wait. But I did notice that the top 5 bars in each color ramp all looked the same...so I dialed down the saturation until there was some distinction between them. Anyway...back to the question. When I tried to do the same thing for the S-Video connection, I was not able to set the contrast. The only way to get rid of the whiter than white bars was to crank up the contrast so high that the whole picture was blown out.

Was I doing something wrong? Could it be my TV? Or does calibrating like this just not work over an S-Video connection?

Thanks...

Just wanted to post a note, purchased and downloaded the GetGray disc over the weekend, had some trouble burning a copy because my LiteOn DVDRW started insisting it was only a CDRW. :confused: A reboot resolved that and I was able to start playing around with the disc. Worked OK on my cheapo CyberHome DVD player connected to my Sharp LCD. Tried running it on my HTPC connected to my Sony HS10 FP using Zoom Player and ran into a few problems, navigation was not easy and it actually locked up ZP a couple of times. This may be "normal" with Zoom Player, not sure as I have all my DVDs ripped without any menus and actually rarely watch anything but HD these days.

Sitting in my office as I type this is an Eye One Display LT, so I look forward to calibrating using the HCFR software. I had previously calibrated the HS10 using Smart III, I'll be interested to see how they compare.

gabe973 -- The GetGray Caldisc doesn't care what connections you are using. Any adjustment problems are a function of your display and it's setup or control functions (which usually are different for each input). The DVD player might also have some effect, but that is minor.

Some displays will not allow you to set the Contrast (white level) per the GetGray instructions (you may not be able to get the "above white" bars to disappear). This is inherent in the design of some displays. When this happens, you adjust the contrast so that the grayscale ramps look correct and there is no color tint in the top white levels (usually happens when the contrast is set too high). This is also a function of your display and any "automatic" settings that are enabled (all "automatic" controls shoud be disabled or you will not be able to get a good calibration).

Your checking of the grayscale ramps is correct for verifying that your adjustment of the Brightness (black level) and Contrast (white level). BTW, you should start with the levels set to mid-scale and do the Brightness adjustment first. After you adjust the Contrast, go back and check the Brightness (these two control settings effect each other and have to be repeated, one after the other, until they are correct).

Again, if you haven't disabled all "automatic" features of your display, you will never get it to the correct calibration levels. Most displays come with the "auto" features enabled as a default. Be sure to read your display manual to make sure you are not, unintentially, creating an "impossible" situation.

JDLIVE -- I've run it on my PC (using WinDVD, MS Media Player, or PowerDVD) with absolutely no problems. I suspect your problems have to do with your ZP setup. BTW, I've read that some users have had problems with ZoomPlayer - check on the HTPC forum - I haven't been there in quite a while and am not up to speed on the subject.

You may also have some configuration problems with your HTPC (since your LiteOn wasn't working right either - I've never had that burning problem with my LiteOn - using Nero Ultra 6 & 7 or ImgBurn).

JDLIVE -- I've run it on my PC (using WinDVD, MS Media Player, or PowerDVD) with absolutely no problems. I suspect your problems have to do with your ZP setup. BTW, I've read that some users have had problems with ZoomPlayer - check on the HTPC forum - I haven't been there in quite a while and am not up to speed on the subject.

I'll have to try it again, maybe with PowerDVD Ultra. I also was just mounting the image file using Daemon Tools, I'll try again using the DVD I burned as well. I'm not expecting a lot of help from anyone with ZP, as you know it's highly dependent on what set of decoders/filters you've chosen to use and how much you've tweaked it.

You may also have some configuration problems with your HTPC (since your LiteOn wasn't working right either - I've never had that burning problem with my LiteOn - using Nero Ultra 6 & 7 or ImgBurn).

Actually the LiteOn is in a different PC, the one that *used* to be my HTPC prior to upgrading in order to run Blu-Ray and HD DVD. :D

I took some measurements using HCFR of my Sharp LCD panel, I need to find a service manual to be able to adjust the blue primary, it's way too high across the board using any color temp preset. :(

It would be greatly appreciated if you could add 10% stepped RGBCMY color patches. This would really help in doing inter-probe comparisons.

thanks!

I ordered / donated for the GetGray software this morning at calibrate.tv and I am very anxious to burn the dvd. Now it is the afternoon and I haven't received the instructions for the download yet (just the receipt from paypal).

The calibrate.tv website said it may take up to 24 hours to receive notice and instructions for the download. This seems like a long time (for someone who is excited about trying it out). I guess I thought it would be automatic. What is the typical turnaround time?

Maybe I am just being impatient - I think I am becoming a product of the instant gratification society.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooops! Never mind. My email put it in the junk mail box. I got it and I have downloaded it.

Sorry for any confusion.

And to further correct the record, I received about 8 minutes after I ordered it. That's real fast! Thanks.

angryht -- This effort is a one man operation, in his spare time. You were being unrealistically impatient. The 24 hours is to give Scott time to check his web site (after all, he does have a day job and family responsibilities, too).

NOTE: If it we me, I would probably make it 48 hours, since I don't have computer access when I'm on the road. Anxiety can be insideous :eek:.

Emaill blocking is the most prevalent cause of prospective owners not getting their links (as you discovered). I'm glad you found yours, so quickly. Have fun - it's a good tool :D.

Thanks again. I really am truly impressed by how quickly I got it - the message was really sent only 8 minutes after I made the donation.

Strange experience with the GetGray DVD and the Oppo 981HD DVD player.

When displaying Belle-Nuit (Main menu -> Miscellaneous -> Belle-Nuit General), the alternating white and black horizontal lines just above the 3 have a strange flicker.

I know strange is a very non-descriptive term. Only a portion of the bars flicker, and not even all the bars. Anyone run into this?

If I use the Belle-Nuit pattern from the HQV, there is no problem at all.

... Altan

(Posted similar on the 981 thread)

Hello everyone.
I recently purchased the GetGray disc. I already had VE and DVE. My question is, should there be a difference in final brightness setting when using GetGray's Brightness Adjustment (the one with the -4, -2, 0, +2 and +4% bars) pattern or VE\DVE pluge patterns?
In my case after setting brightness on my Toshiba 65HDX82 rpcrt using VE or DVE (both discs give identical final settings) and then comparing to the GetGray brightness adjust pattern, the getgray screen looks much brighter, meaning I can clearly see the below black bars in the getgay pattern while below black on the VE\DVE pattern is not visible. I can't see how this could be an expected result. I would expect setting black level using any disc should end up with very similar final results.
The other area where this shows up, is when adjusting my grayscale using HCFR. The black or 0 IRE window using VE or DVE is actually black while the black\0% window in GetGray looks much brighter, probably more equivalent to the 10 IRE window on VE or DVE.
I have 2 different dvd players, a Pioneer Elite DV-47ai and an OPPO 970 and both show the same.
At this point, my GetGray disc is unusable because any of the adjustments I want to make seem based on an erroneous black setup.
Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Bill

pwstreet:

Sounds like you used software that re-encoded the video. The levels should not look different than the other's. Use imgburn, and create a DVD (not a CD, VCD, etc) using the iso file. Level 16 is level 16 and that's what is on the DVD image. If the image got recompressed, re-endoded, etc. that will screw up the colors and levels.

madmeyers:

The Oppo can't "switch gears" fast enough. The GetGray DVD's patterns repeat in order to make them be continous. What you are seeing is the Oppo repeating the pattern. The Oppo flicker has been reported several times, it's somethign that just has to be lived with unless they upgrade the FW or hardware to address it.

HTH, Scott

The Oppo can't "switch gears" fast enough. The GetGray DVD's patterns repeat in order to make them be continous. What you are seeing is the Oppo repeating the pattern. The Oppo flicker has been reported several times, it's somethign that just has to be lived with unless they upgrade the FW or hardware to address it.

Actually, this is a different issue than the Oppo jitter caused by looping. One of the Belle-Nuit patterns has a slight flicker that the others don't. I don't think it's important, but neither can I explain it. I don't understand the things that happen with video signal fine details.

-Bill

pwstreet:

Sounds like you used software that re-encoded the video. The levels should not look different than the other's. Use imgburn, and create a DVD (not a CD, VCD, etc) using the iso file. Level 16 is level 16 and that's what is on the DVD image. If the image got recompressed, re-endoded, etc. that will screw up the colors and levels.

madmeyers:

The Oppo can't "switch gears" fast enough. The GetGray DVD's patterns repeat in order to make them be continous. What you are seeing is the Oppo repeating the pattern. The Oppo flicker has been reported several times, it's somethign that just has to be lived with unless they upgrade the FW or hardware to address it.

HTH, Scott
Hi Scott,
I actually did use Imgburn to burn the iso file to dvd. I'm really stumped by this problem. The file name of the unzipped download is GetGrayNTSC1-1.iso and it's 375,140 kb.
Any other ideas would be much appreciated.
Thanks again,
Bill

GetGray: First of all thank you for this disk. I really like the simplicity and the accuracy.

I sent my self addressed stamped envelope in the mail today to get the filters you offer. In the meantime, I assume that it is ok to use my filter(s) from Avia.

pwstreet -- I found a difference in the Bightness and Contrast settings too (on one of my PJs). The reason is that the DVE (and VE and AVIA) use the test patterns with an APL of 50%, whereas GetGray uses an APL of 0% for Brightness and 100% for Contrast. This allows you to set the Black Level and White Level much more accurately than any of the "Standard" patterns. On some displays this can make a significant difference (an improvement, IMHO).

I have a PJ (a Mits HC3) which is CR challenged. With the Get Gray disc, I was able to set the Black and White levels more accurately than the others and allowed me to achieve the maximum CR that the HC3 is capable of.

Hi Claus,
Thanks for the response. I don't think the APL level difference can explain the difference I'm seeing. Both VE and DVE have low and high APL pluge patterns which are used to determine how well the tv can hold black at different APL levels. On my set, the difference in black with either pattern is very minor. This leads me to believe that my set can hold black pretty well irrespective of APL (if I understand the use of these patterns correctly).
With my GetGray disc brightness pattern,the change is notably different. I can clearly see the -2 and -4% below black bars and the 0% background no longer looks black, but is more like a dark gray. If I set my black levels with getgray, the resulting is so dark as to be unacceptable, and I'm used to watching my TV in a light controlled theatre room (usually with all lights off). I've had this TV and another one ISF calibrated so I feel I have a good idea of how a properly calibrated TV should look.
After Scott's response I thought maybe there was something wrong with my download\burning process. I re-downloaded the GetGray zip file and burned another dvd using ImgBurn but the result was identical to my original download\burn.
My Pioneer dvd player has the ability to set black level at 0 IRE or 7.5 IRE. When I tried GetGray disc at 0 IRE setting, the black levels looked like the VE\DVE blacks using the original 7.5 IRE.
I'm suprised that I could be the only person having this issue unless no one else has actually compared the actual patterns between discs (which I also don't think is very likely).
Anyways, thanks again to both you and Scott for the response. Hopefully I can find out what is going on with this.

Bill

Hi Claus,
Thanks for the response. I don't think the APL level difference can explain the difference I'm seeing. Both VE and DVE have low and high APL pluge patterns which are used to determine how well the tv can hold black at different APL levels. On my set, the difference in black with either pattern is very minor. This leads me to believe that my set can hold black pretty well irrespective of APL (if I understand the use of these patterns correctly).
With my GetGray disc brightness pattern,the change is notably different. I can clearly see the -2 and -4% below black bars and the 0% background no longer looks black, but is more like a dark gray. If I set my black levels with getgray, the resulting is so dark as to be unacceptable, and I'm used to watching my TV in a light controlled theatre room (usually with all lights off). I've had this TV and another one ISF calibrated so I feel I have a good idea of how a properly calibrated TV should look.
After Scott's response I thought maybe there was something wrong with my download\burning process. I re-downloaded the GetGray zip file and burned another dvd using ImgBurn but the result was identical to my original download\burn.
My Pioneer dvd player has the ability to set black level at 0 IRE or 7.5 IRE. When I tried GetGray disc at 0 IRE setting, the black levels looked like the VE\DVE blacks using the original 7.5 IRE.
I'm suprised that I could be the only person having this issue unless no one else has actually compared the actual patterns between discs (which I also don't think is very likely).
Anyways, thanks again to both you and Scott for the response. Hopefully I can find out what is going on with this.

Bill
What set do you have?

Toshiba 65HDX82 rear projection CRT. see also post #1613 above for additional info.

Bill

I'm suprised that I could be the only person having this issue unless no one else has actually compared the actual patterns between discs (which I also don't think is very likely).Actually, I've compared the patterns on all the available DVD's including the popular consumer level as well as both pro versions. The comparison was at the YCbCr digital byte level. The GetGray DVD is more accurate than the consumer versions, and it is identical (or better) than the pro patterns. That said, if you have the pressed version of DVE, and you have a GetGray DVD made with imgburn, I can't explain why you are seeing any differences. Of the hundreds of professionals that use mine now, no one has found any anomaly. Must be something particular to your setup, but I have no idea what.

The patterns on the DVD are really simple. The hard part is getting them through the encoding and authoring process unaffected. So they are just YCbCr values being read off the DVD by your equipment. The YCbCr value for "video black" is the same on both the GetGray and DVE discs.

The GetGray DVD isn't designed to calibrate CRT's, and I do not recommend its use for CRT's. The GetGray DVD is lacking a pattern to properly test/set contrast on a CRT. Although, what I said about the digital levels still applies.

I know you love feature requests so here is another one. 0-255 discrete display blocks in one window each for RGBW, I'd like to check for bit shifts in the processor on my plasma.

I have that as a consideration already. But... I can't do complete non-video levels with color. The RGB to YCbCr transforms are meant to do 16-235 when dealing with color. That's why you see the ramps with blacker than black, but no ramps with redder than red :). For example , video red (100%) is 235,16,16. So it really has a green and blue component in RGB, but the 16,16 are meant to be adjusted to "black" so they won't have an effect. So if you do red at 0, the 16,16 of GB doesn't "fit" anymore.

makes sense. My set clips below digital 16 anyway and the bit noise I'm looking for is most noticeable at the low end so "redder than red" and such won't be missed. thanks.

Did you ever have any luck using the mpeg2enc command-line program that takes raw component data?

Would it be possible to get out-of-video-level color when dealing with straight YCrCb values rather than converting from RGB?

My YCrCb is a bit fuzzy. But wouldn't the ramps just be in the 0 to 255 of the Y? Then the color of ramp would be chosen by the CrCb:

Red would be 255 Cr and 0 Cb
Green would be 0 Cr and 0 Cb
Blue would be 0 Cr and 255 Cb
White would be 127 Cr and 127 Cb?

Or would the 0s and 255s in the CrCb be too extreme and go farther out of range?

EDIT: Rethinking that. The "255" should actually match the value of the Y and the 0 should still be 0 or maybe 16. The white should have both Cr and Cb following the Y. Right?

Myself and other Panny 9UK owners have noticed a reddish *and* greenish tint in some of the bars on the gray ramp. This is after do-it-yourself cal. with HCFR?

What would cause this with a pretty good RGB adj (<4 DE avg)?


bob

Myself and other Panny 9UK owners have noticed a reddish *and* greenish tint in some of the bars on the gray ramp. This is after do-it-yourself cal. with HCFR?

What would cause this with a pretty good RGB adj (<4 DE avg)?


bobBest guess, inaccurate meter and or non linear grayscale tracking. There is no color in the grays.

Myself and other Panny 9UK owners have noticed a reddish *and* greenish tint in some of the bars on the gray ramp. This is after do-it-yourself cal. with HCFR?

What would cause this with a pretty good RGB adj (<4 DE avg)?


Plasmas are notorious for creating discolouration in the grey ramp. I can within the space of 10 clicks of contrast or brightness (out of a range of 128) go from a perfectly smooth grey ramp to one with very noticeable colour bands.

I'm pretty sure it's a just a function of the video processing translating to "bad" PWM of one or more of the primaries.

On a positive note, the continuous ramp is perfect for detecting/fixing this effect.

On a positive note, the continuous ramp is perfect for detecting/fixing this effect.

not quite perfect in my opinion, fixed 16-235 RGB steps will be better for this because you can then isolate and trade-off where the missed steps are occuring within each ramp. ;)

Plasmas are notorious for creating discolouration in the grey ramp. I can within the space of 10 clicks of contrast or brightness (out of a range of 128) go from a perfectly smooth grey ramp to one with very noticeable colour bands.

I'm pretty sure it's a just a function of the video processing translating to "bad" PWM of one or more of the primaries.

So, is it really there? (real world viewing)?


On a positive note, the continuous ramp is perfect for detecting/fixing this effect.

Fix it by using the brightness/contrast controls?

thx

bob

Bob, I think your quoting was messed up.

Yes, it is there in real world viewing. Without looking at the ramps it's possible to have a perfectly flat 10 point greyscale and then have a really nasty picture because 65 IRE (or any IRE that lands on "5" is messed up.

If I do the same thing, adjust brightness/contrast, with a 10 IRE step ramp you can still see the same effect but only when the bands line up.

Bob, I think your quoting was messed up.

Yes, it is there in real world viewing. Without looking at the ramps it's possible to have a perfectly flat 10 point greyscale and then have a really nasty picture because 65 IRE (or any IRE that lands on "5" is messed up.

If I do the same thing, adjust brightness/contrast, with a 10 IRE step ramp you can still see the same effect but only when the bands line up.


Thanks,

So using the gray ramp is very helpful to fine tune a 10 point RGB cal. that appears decent (DE<4, etc)?

That might explain why my picture still isn't right even after calibrating? (skin tones, yellows)?

bob

Correct.

The continuous ramp is now part of my new procedure after I had an awesome greyscale (DE <3) but crappy fleshtones and other general wierdness that I couldn't understand.

Injector -- Welcome to the GetGray club.

You have one error in your statments. Using the Color/Tint controls, you are not setting the "Color Decoder", you are setting the relative color intensities. The color decoder is basically a matrix (in the firmware) which maps the YCbCr video to the "correct" RGB values that are used by your display to show the picture.

Detailed information on the Color Decoder is discussed in other threads in this forum.

You are right in that your technique will not work on a lot of displays. It is the standard technique for CRT PJs, where you can mask off the red and green tubes, or on sets where the red & green signals can be turned off. I am surprised that your LCD display can actually shut off the red & green. Most LCDs will still output some (faint) light from the red & green pixels, even when the red and green controls are set to zero. I'll have to try that on my LCD flat panel TVs, to see what I get on them, relative to the "standard blue filter technique".

When one is adjusting the color saturation and balance controls, you are sort of adjusting aspects of color decoding. You are not necessarily adjusting the matrix transform that is happening, so in that sense you are not actually adjusting the color decoder circuitry itself, however you are adjusting the way that the luma and chroma signals are related to each other, but not necessarily the way that they then get transformed into RGB. So, I think it's fair to characterize this as adjustments of color decoding, though if you're characterizing the color decoding specifically as only the matrix transform then no you are not adjusting the matrix at all.

But I do think it's fair to group color saturation and balance controls with "color decoding" broadly since these controls, along with any additional controls which would allow adjustment of the matrix itself (which could I suppose be conceptually described as per-primary color saturation controls) are all dealing with the coloration parts of the signals and are not related to greyscale.

So I think that it's fair to group all your greyscale adjustments together, and then all your color decoder and color saturation and color balance controls together.

Adjusting the color saturation and balance is kind of like steering a car. You are still manipulating the alignment of the wheels, but not necessarily the actually alignment of the wheels themselves, if that makes sense. To do that, you would need to adjust the actual alignment, rather than just the steering wheel, just as if your color decoding is not correct, you would need to adjust the matrix itself, and not merely the saturation and balance controls.

Rethinking that. The "255" should actually match the value of the Y and the 0 should still be 0 or maybe 16. The white should have both Cr and Cb following the Y. Right?Y components range from +16 to +235. Cr/Cb components range from -112 to +112, offset by 128, for an effective range of +16 to +240. By contrast, R, G and B components all have ranges of 0 to +255.
http://www.xilinx.com/bvdocs/techx/Colour.pps
:rolleyes:
Above are diagrams that elegantly show how the (R’G’B’) to (Y’, B’-Y’, R’-Y’) colour space transform re-maps the R’G’B’ unity cube to an area that is 25% of the volume allowed by the maximum excursion of the new axis, which introduce the concept of valid signals (i.e., luma and color difference signals that are found on the Y and B-Y, R-Y axis.

Thomas

Correct.

The continuous ramp is now part of my new procedure after I had an awesome greyscale (DE <3) but crappy fleshtones and other general wierdness that I couldn't understand.


Could you elaborate on your "procedure"?


BTW, I have a Panny 9UK and have been told that the Picture control is not a typical contrast control, if that matters?


thx

bob

I havent been into this thread for a long time but now I need HELP!

I signed up in the early days for the Getgray calibration disc.

I have moved and can find the discs to recalibrate my displays, I dont know how to get a NTSC copy of the disc now?

I dont remember if I need a pin/password or if Im allowed to get another copy?

Can someone help me please?

Thanks in advance :rolleyes:

If you still have the download link email from when you signed up the first time it should still work. It will have your password.

If you don't have that you'll need to send Scott email or PM.

If you still have the download link email from when you signed up the first time it should still work. It will have your password.

If you don't have that you'll need to send Scott email or PM.

Thanks for that, I have just searched my PC and cant find the download link email.
I sent an email to an address on the getgray site so I hope that will go to Scott, correct?

I emailed him. Note that I turned off all the old accounts due to general, broad misuse loading down the server. Each person should need one download. There haven't been any updates so generally folks should have the current version. Now I ask people to do their d/l within a few days and give limited access time.

I've been using my Getgray disc trying to attain image nirvana. I recently bought a component cable to hook up to my Mits 3000 projector. I have an hdmi connection as well however my Onkyo receiver completely crushes the image from my 360 add on drive and I'm not able to see any change to contrast when making adjustments from the HC3000 menu. Also I was noticing a flickering of light colors as well. I don't see this when playing SD dvds out of my oppo which is connected to my Onkyo with a dvi cable. So I don't think this is a projector issue.

With my component cable installed and getgray dvd in the add on drive I started adjusting away. Right off the bat the color is WAY off. The standard xbox360 background that is typically sort of an orange color is now green. I went through the brightness and contrast settings then proceeded to color. I used my blue filter to to make the initial color adjustment, but for some reason the tint option is not available. Am I doing something wrong? How come the projector isn't letting me adjust tint?

With my component cable installed and getgray dvd in the add on drive I started adjusting away. Right off the bat the color is WAY off. The standard xbox360 background that is typically sort of an orange color is now green. I went through the brightness and contrast settings then proceeded to color. I used my blue filter to to make the initial color adjustment, but for some reason the tint option is not available. Am I doing something wrong? How come the projector isn't letting me adjust tint?

Make sure your input setting is YPbPr/YCbCr, sounds like it's set to RGB.

<snip>.... standard xbox360 background that is typically sort of an orange color is now green. I went through the brightness and contrast settings then proceeded to color. ....<snip>You are asking in the wrong place. This isn't calibration disc specific. If you will start a new thread with a relevant subject line, all the calibrators here will see it and may offer some help. Only those subscribed to this thread will see your question, and it is likely there are a great many who are not, and will not.

I thought I had a problem too with getting rid of the whiter than white bars on my Samsung LN-S3251D. When I went through the blacker than black screen I configured my brightness to around 40/100 and then on the wtw there was no way I was getting rid of the wtw bars. I ended up really messing around with both contrast and brightness today and it turns out I can get rid of the wtw bars if I put my brightness all the way up to 90/100. .

I also have this problem. I have a Euro Model Panny PV500. I can not get the 2 above white bars to disappear. Yes if I turn the brightness up to 100 I get close, but I am not comfortable with that, and then the black is off, and I don't think the PQ is better anyway!. I have long thought I had a problem with my display. The whites are just Too white. If a person is wearing a white shirt it shines! and some skin tones are just really to bright. I was hoping the disk would help, but it seems it has just confirmed I have a problem with my display? I would like to adjust the set so I can tone down the white. I don't seem to be able to do it with the brightness and contrast adjustments (believe me I have spent hours). I use Cinema mode, and I have tried the warm setting, but it doesn’t look “natural” I just want to adjust it so it displays just below white - this set is giving me eye strain and a headache. Can anyone help? :(

[QUOTE=Deaddy]I thought I had a problem too with getting rid of the whiter than white bars on my Samsung LN-S3251D. When I went through the blacker than black screen I configured my brightness to around 40/100 and then on the wtw there was no way I was getting rid of the wtw bars. I ended up really messing around with both contrast and brightness today and it turns out I can get rid of the wtw bars if I put my brightness all the way up to 90/100. QUOTE]

I also have this problem. I have a Euro Model Panny PV500. I can not get the 2 above white bars to disappear. Yes if I turn the brightness up to 100 I get close, but I am not comfortable with that, and then the black is off, and I don't think the PQ is better anyway!. I have long thought I had a problem with my display. The whites are just Too white. If a person is wearing a white shirt it shines! and some skin tones are just really to bright. I was hoping the disk would help, but it seems it has just confirmed I have a problem with my display? I would like to adjust the set so I can tone down the white. I don't seem to be able to do it with the brightness and contrast adjustments (believe me I have spent hours). I use Cinema mode, and I have tried the warm setting, but it doesn’t look “natural” I just want to adjust it so it displays just below white - this set is giving me eye strain and a headache. Can anyone help?

Panny displays' contrast controls don't clip I'm afraid, they just increase or reduce the voltage applied to the pixels. Wihthout measuring equipment there's not much you can do but with most panels in most circumstances using the cinema mode with the contrast and brightness set at defaults will get you pretty close.

Tim

I am Sorry Tim, I am a novice user and I am not familiar with the term "clip" What in layman’s terms do you think is wrong with my set. I have posted my problem on many sites and have no help. I really thought someone else might have the same problem. Am I explaining my problem correctly? Maybe I should use the correct technical terms to get a reply. This is the problem (as I see it). White shirts look too white, they shine - no matter how much I reduce the contrast and brightness (the only controls I have). I use Cinema and warm, but still too bright. Do you think from what I have said that I have a technical problem with my set or does it need to be calibrated? I thought it would come out of the box (with a few preference tweaks) and look great, I didn't think I would need to go through this (unless there is a prob with the set?). Do you think not being able to adjust the set to get rid of the +2 and +4 bars is a problem in itself, or is this common? I spent 3 and a half grand on this set and I just can’t watch it, after a while it hurts my eyes, actually gives me a headache. Any advice is welcome!

The clipping issue is just the way that some plasmas are designed.

It looks better after calibration but that has more to do with greyscale and RGB colour balance than white and black points. I can turn the contrast all the way up on my Panasonic without whites looking terribly saturated, though I wouldn't want to as I'd like it to last for a while without any persistent image.

What source are you using and can you adjust its output pedestal? The menu will say something like 0 or 7.5 IRE or Video or PC. I think the only thing you can do is go and have a look at another panel fed by the same source. You might want to try to find the number of your local service agent and give them a call. Mine is particularly friendly (but then I have bought 3 TVs from him!).

Edited: because I realised you have a Samsung!
Doh! you do have a Panny. It doesn't sound right - I've got two panels a 50-PHD8 commercial, and a 37-PV60. With both of them I use them on cinema with brightness and contrast set to default, black and white levels are pretty close to where they should be. And you are asking in the wrong place - try one of the plasma specific forums or go over to www.avforums.com as you have a UK model. if you do ask in the avforums go over to the calibration forum rather than the plasma forum - you are more likely to get a sensible reply rather being told to take Panasonic to court!

Tim

I am Sorry Tim, I am a novice user and I am not familiar with the term "clip" What in layman’s terms do you think is wrong with my set. I have posted my problem on many sites and have no help. I really thought someone else might have the same problem. Am I explaining my problem correctly? Maybe I should use the correct technical terms to get a reply. This is the problem (as I see it). White shirts look too white, they shine - no matter how much I reduce the contrast and brightness (the only controls I have). I use Cinema and warm, but still too bright. Do you think from what I have said that I have a technical problem with my set or does it need to be calibrated? I thought it would come out of the box (with a few preference tweaks) and look great, I didn't think I would need to go through this (unless there is a prob with the set?). Do you think not being able to adjust the set to get rid of the +2 and +4 bars is a problem in itself, or is this common? I spent 3 and a half grand on this set and I just can’t watch it, after a while it hurts my eyes, actually gives me a headache. Any advice is welcome!
Some ideas:

1. Turn down Picture.
2. Use Cinema mode.
3. Use Warm color temperature.
4. Select a lower gamma setting (2.2 instead of 2.5 perhaps).
5. Have the set professionally calibrated.

Don't think there is anything wrong with your set, it's expected behaviour on a Panasonic plasma to not being able to get rid of the +2 and +4 bars.

I am using Sky HD with HDMI input. But DVD's look the same using my Samsung R125 with component. I have a few posts over at AVForums, but not getting much help. I think I have set problem as I can't think I am the only person in Europe who can't set up his set using the basic menu functions. This is what I have by the way

1 year old 42" PV500
Cinema
Contrast around 50
Brightness around 40
Colur around 30
Sharpness off
Normal setting
Everything else off!

Some ideas:

1. Turn down Picture.
2. Use Cinema mode.
3. Use Warm color temperature.
4. Select a lower gamma setting (2.2 instead of 2.5 perhaps).
5. Have the set professionally calibrated.

Don't think there is anything wrong with your set, it's expected behaviour on a Panasonic plasma to not being able to get rid of the +2 and +4 bars.
Thanks cssundabon. Sorry but what do you mean by "turn down picture" and I assume lowering the gamma is in the service menu somewhere (do you know where) I don't like to go into the service menu, but I don't mind to make this one change - what heading should I be looking for, I was in it once, but don't recall seeing a Gamma setting on the front page?

Shame your not in Ireland, would have had you do the calabration for me!!

Picture I think is the US equivalent of contrast, the problem with asking the question here is that it tends to be US dominated and the consumer Panasonics have different software depending on where in the world you buy them. Forget the plasma sections of avforums try the calibration forum. http://www.avforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=172 That is where the ISF calibrators hang out. They will have seen the same plasma as yours and will be able to answer your question.

Tim

Thanks Tim!

londonr -- I have repeated this numerous times in this thread. On many displays the adjustment of the Peak Whites (often called WTW) is not possible, due to the way they process the video information. Remember to always refer to your owners manual for adjustment information and details. Also remember to turn off automatic picture controls, since they will prevent you from making the correct adjustments.

Being unable to make the "above white bars" disappear is not a fault and the owners should not obsess over this issue (it is a fact of life for your display). It does mean that other methods need to be used to set the White Level. The recommended one is to set the white level so that the set is not too bright, does not show coloration in the gray scale ramps (the usual effect of running the display too bright), and bright enough to not lose detail in the brighter parts of the video pictures.

londonr -- I have repeated this numerous times in this thread. On many displays the adjustment of the Peak Whites (often called WTW) is not possible, due to the way they process the video information. Remember to always refer to your owners manual for adjustment information and details. Also remember to turn off automatic picture controls, since they will prevent you from making the correct adjustments.

Being unable to make the "above white bars" disappear is not a fault and the owners should not obsess over this issue (it is a fact of life for your display). It does mean that other methods need to be used to set the White Level. The recommended one is to set the white level so that the set is not too bright, does not show coloration in the gray scale ramps (the usual effect of running the display too bright), and bright enough to not lose detail in the brighter parts of the video pictures.

Sounds like you are saying two things (maybe 3) 1, you can not adjust the white balance sufficiently on a set that shows above white like mine from the user menu adjustments? Also it sounds like you are saying that a trip to the dreaded service menu is required (no instructions in user manual for that - I am in Europe). And 3, it sounds like you are saying, get it professionally calibrated, and unfortunately in Ireland where are live, there are not any!

Sounds like you are saying two things (maybe 3) 1, you can not adjust the white balance sufficiently on a set that shows above white like mine from the user menu adjustments? Also it sounds like you are saying that a trip to the dreaded service menu is required (no instructions in user manual for that - I am in Europe). And 3, it sounds like you are saying, get it professionally calibrated, and unfortunately in Ireland where are live, there are not any!

I think the main point is that this is not an issue to worry about. Many (most?) digital panels do this and the only problem it leads to is not being able to use that particular method of setting contrast. So you are stuck with doing it the old fashioned way, by eye. Just set it for comfortable viewing in your environment and enjoy.

cheers

Exactly the point I was trying to make. Thank you zoyd.

I am pretty sure I understand the gray scale and getting the offsets and gains to produce the 6500. Can someone explain the color adjustments? From what I understand, the color in the user menu does not have an effect on the primaries but the tint can shift the secondaries along the lines of the triangle. Can someone please help me or point me to a thread that would help. Post #708 in this thread was helpfull in the gray scale adjustment, I am just not sure where to go from here. I have adjusted color and tint with my blue filter from Avia and the Getgray disc (still waiting for my filters from getgray).

Any help would be appreciated.

One more thing: Thanks to all involved in the development and constant updates of the HCFR software. It is an amazing program.

angryht,

I think what you are looking for is covered in the two sticky threads (Calibration FAQ and Understanding and Interpreting calibration charts) at the top of the forum.

Thank you, jvincent. I will keep reading those threads. I just thought that someone who had gone through the process with HCFR may have posted the procedure.

Regards.

Some ideas:

1. Turn down Picture.
2. Use Cinema mode.
3. Use Warm color temperature.
4. Select a lower gamma setting (2.2 instead of 2.5 perhaps).
5. Have the set professionally calibrated.

Don't think there is anything wrong with your set, it's expected behaviour on a Panasonic plasma to not being able to get rid of the +2 and +4 bars.


What are the +2 and +4 bars you speak of with the Panny?

What are the +2 and +4 bars you speak of with the Panny?
On the GetGray calibration disc, the two rightmost bars on the contrast pattern.

londonr, not all of your whites should be supernova. Before I jump into your situation, I want to address something first:

It looks better after calibration but that has more to do with greyscale and RGB colour balance than white and black points.

Calibration is MORE about black and white than it is color. Dynamic range is the MOST IMPORTANT factor in proper calibration technique. Our eyes see luminance values almost 6 times better than they see color (the whole 'rods and cones' thing that was taught to us in primary school). Thus, scientifically, a display's ability to accurately reproduce luminance values is more important than its color accuracy. Color is second - but ONLY to dynamic range.

Okay, back to you, londonr...

Let me clarify something that some other "older, wiser" people don't seem to have the communication skills to get across: if you're looking at a test pattern that has whiter than white areas on it (102 IRE, 104 IRE, etc), you're not really concerned about them. In fact, you SHOULD see them. Most sets (if the mfgr gives a hoot about standards) are designed to differentiate (and thus display) IRE levels up to 110. Why? So that people who know better can ridicule the CCU (camera control) operators who don't know how to use an iris. ;-)

What really matters is whether or not you can see 98, 96, 94 IRE, etc. If you can't, you have a clipping problem. There is a serious amount of detail in the upper (and lower) 10% of the picture that you are missing. A clipping problem in video is like trying to put a 10-foot ladder in an 8-foot high room - you can't get to the top. The ladder is too big for the room. Likewise, when the contrast or gain is set too high on a video signal, the incoming voltage is so high that the display doesn't have enough headroom to show all the IRE values. If you're familiar with audio at all, a square wave (aka distortion) in an audio signal that 'clips' an amplifier is a similar situation to a video signal that 'clips' the display.

You're using a digital input for your STB, so it's not a voltage issue, but most displays do have digital 'gain' controls in the service menu. Those get tricky, though, because one bad move could mean a trip to a repair center.

If your contrast adjustment isn't making any difference, then it's either a gain issue or a gamma issue.

Try to get your hands on some other source equipment just to make sure it's an issue with the display. Try all the input formats, too, including composite and Y/C.

If you were to come across a display analysis tool (such as a SpyderTV or Eye One), someone could probably walk you through the measurements to find out where the problem lies.

Striving for display perfection,

~Phil

Some ideas:

1. Turn down Picture.
2. Use Cinema mode.
3. Use Warm color temperature.
4. Select a lower gamma setting (2.2 instead of 2.5 perhaps).
5. Have the set professionally calibrated.

Don't think there is anything wrong with your set, it's expected behaviour on a Panasonic plasma to not being able to get rid of the +2 and +4 bars.


Raising the "input level" will get rid of the +2 and +4 bars
(using the split screen pattern- not the full white screen pattern)-usig Getgray

Raising the "input level" will get rid of the +2 and +4 bars
(using the split screen pattern- not the full white screen pattern)-usig Getgray
Yes, but please don't do that. You are now clipping WtW. Even a +2 setting on input level will start clipping your peak whites. +1 has no visible effect as far as I can tell. This applies to digital inputs only.

What are the +2 and +4 bars you speak of with the Panny?They are in the Contrast Test Pattern on the GetGray Caldisc. Go to www.calibrate.tv and download the "ReadMe" file. It contains the "instructions' for the use of the Getgray Caldisc. The brightness and contrast test patterns are described there.

Yes, but please don't do that. You are now clipping WtW. Even a +2 setting on input level will start clipping your peak whites. +1 has no visible effect as far as I can tell. This applies to digital inputs only.

Why not?

Aren't we supposed to clip WTW? the only way to do that on the Panasonics are by adjusting the input level.

I am bit confused here. :confused:

Yea? Isn't that the point of having a test pattern to reveal whiter than white levels?

I mean you don't want to be able to see the blacker than black...

What i am doing is adjusting the input level on the Panasonic til i clip the white at exactly the right level in the ramp.

After that i use the contrast control to set the intensity of white.

Why not?

Aren't we supposed to clip WTW? the only way to do that on the Panasonics are by adjusting the input level.

I am bit confused here. :confused:
Depends on who you listen too. Most video experts are in agreement that you want to maintain WtW data. Overshoot is very common, and you don't want to flatten out the whitest parts of the picture (clouds, shirts etc). However, you will take a small contrast ratio hit. This is seldom a concern with modern displays, since they have light output to spare anyway.

Depends on who you listen too. Most video experts are in agreement that you want to maintain WtW data. Overshoot is very common, and you don't want to flatten out the whitest parts of the picture (clouds, shirts etc). However, you will take a small contrast ratio hit. This is seldom a concern with modern displays, since they have light output to spare anyway.

So the Getgray recommendation in the manual clipping the two above white bars is incorrect?

So the Getgray recommendation in the manual clipping the two above white bars is incorrect?


Not so much incorrect, it's just not applicable to most current digital displays.

Not so much incorrect, it's just not applicable to most current digital displays.

I changed back to the default input level of 0 now and default contrast setting to 0 in the plasma.

Instead i used the contrast setting in my Crystalio VPS2300 to make everything above level 235 uniform white in the ramp.

Is that the correct method?

I changed back to the default input level of 0 now and default contrast setting to 0 in the plasma.

Instead i used the contrast setting in my Crystalio VPS2300 to make everything above level 235 uniform white in the ramp.

Is that the correct method?
I would try to maintain a distinction between 235 and WtW data. Why throw away data if you have light output to spare?

This is seldom a concern with modern displays, since they have light output to spare anyway…
Why throw away data if you have light output to spare?

I’m not so sure that most FP users have ‘light output to spare’ most need extensive ambient control and screen sizes are limited because they don’t have light output to spare. I’ve never seen a FP that I would classify as too bright unless you limit screen size to <60”. For many, brighter is better and allows for larger screens.

How about the converse? Why reserve some of your precious and limited brightness and CR for a ‘data’ range that shouldn’t be there if the disk is encoded correctly?

There has been many A/B screenshots and analysis posted that contrasts and compares images that have a BTB/WTW clamp to those that don’t from mainstream telicined material. None have demonstrated any perceptible difference to any forum members. (except one delusional? or gifted? individual)

I use the word ‘data’ in quotes as most analysis has shown BTB/WTW to be errors and rubble and NOT an extension of image information in mainstream telecined DVDs. Its just what those codewords are reserved for- transients and filter ring NOT image information.

When someone posts up full frame, lossless, A/B images from a mainstream telecined DVD that demonstrates to the HVS this ‘secret missing info’ and how ‘clouds will turn to marshmellows’ without it, I’ll reconsider. Until then, I’ll trust my own observances with the dozens of A/B image comparisons and analysis that I’ve personally done.

Dave

Not so much incorrect, it's just not applicable to most current digital displays.I disagree. If its not applicable, it would seem to be with a NON digital (full analog CRT path) as they don’t have a hard clamp or limit at white and their black level clamp commonly moves and floats based on APL. It seems it’s most applicable to a digital as you have to set where it clamps via B/C and calibration. If you want to resolve BTB or WTW if and when its present, you have to set your clamp to allow for that and reserve some of your limited brightness and contrast range for it. If it’s not present, or if its not an extension of valid image information, what have you reserved it for?

Dave

I’m not so sure that most FP users have ‘light output to spare’ most need extensive ambient control and screen sizes are limited because they don’t have light output to spare. I’ve never seen a FP that I would classify as too bright unless you limit screen size to <60”. For many, brighter is better and allows for larger screens.

How about the converse? Why reserve some of your precious and limited brightness and CR for a ‘data’ range that shouldn’t be there if the disk is encoded correctly?

There has been many A/B screenshots and analysis posted that contrasts and compares images that have a BTB/WTW clamp to those that don’t from mainstream telicined material. None have demonstrated any perceptible difference to any forum members. (except one delusional? or gifted? individual)

I use the word ‘data’ in quotes as most analysis has shown BTB/WTW to be errors and rubble and NOT an extension of image information in mainstream telecined DVDs. Its just what those codewords are reserved for- transients and filter ring NOT image information.

When someone posts up full frame, lossless, A/B images from a mainstream telecined DVD that demonstrates to the HVS this ‘secret missing info’ and how ‘clouds will turn to marshmellows’ without it, I’ll reconsider. Until then, I’ll trust my own observances with the dozens of A/B image comparisons and analysis that I’ve personally done.

Dave
To each his own, I guess. Distorting a signal chain by re-sampling 1-254 to 1-235 (throwing away data and possible causing rounding errors unless you have plenty of bits to work with) to get a tiny bit of extra CR (we are talking less than 10% here, and most humans need at least a factor of 2x to detect any significant change in brightness) could sometimes make sense in a FP situation. However, it's very similar to driving an amp to the point of distortion and them blaming the musician for playing too loudly and overdriving the amp. A little headroom is not always a bad idea. For other technologies, it's really a non-issue.

There is no "secret data", there is just data present on both cable, dvd and other sources that sometimes > 235. It's your decision if you want to keep it or not, YMMV.

I disagree. If its not applicable, it would seem to be with a NON digital (full analog CRT path) as they don’t have a hard clamp or limit at white and their black level clamp commonly moves and floats based on APL.
Only for poorly designed CRTs, and I don't think we are talking about that in the GetGray thread that designed exclusively for digital displays.

I think your assumption is that there is no valid WtW data present in any source that's worth preserving and displaying to the end-user. I can't argue against that fact, since I'm not experienced enough to have an opinion either way. Therefore, I base my recommendation on what the video experts and SMPTE standards say.

If you want to resolve BTB
Why would you possible want to display BTB to the viewer? Keeping it in the signal chain could make sense for scaling algorithms etc, but it should be clipped prior to final rendering.

There is no "secret data", there is just data present on both cable, dvd and other sources that sometimes > 235. It's your decision if you want to keep it or not, YMMV.Agreed. The spec reserves codes 1-15 and 236-254 for transients, and filter ring and over/undshoots and those data points do occasionally get through. However, just because there is a data point there, it doesn’t automatically mean it is an extension of ‘valid image information’. Most would not classify filter ring or transients as ‘information’ even though it is ‘data’. Indeed, when one examines what these rouge pixels represent to the image in a A/B fashion, where they are and how they are distributed, it gets easier to make the distinction between information and noise. Noise and errors are ‘data’ too.

Dave

Why would you possible want to display BTB to the viewer?
I don’t. My comment was IF SOMEONE wants to possible resolve BTB OR WTW on a digital then they need to allow some display capacity for it. To me, based on my personal investigations, measurements, analysis, and A/B image observations, BTB/WTW are two sides of the same coin and are present and are utilized or not the same way. As goes one so goes the other. If it’s an extension of valid image information, its an extension on both ends. If its filter ring, rubble and errors, it that on both ends too.
However, it's very similar to driving an amp to the point of distortion and them blaming the musician for playing too loudly and overdriving the amp. A little headroom is not always a bad idea.
Well, our audio chain is still largely analog. Comparing an analog amp to a digital projector is not really the same here. There’s no quieter than silence for our audio either.

A digital display user has to make a choice if and how much display capacity to reserve for any BTB/WTW headroom. My disagreement was with your assertion that most digital users have ‘light output to spare’. Once calibrated, I think most of us would say “too bright? I wish!”

Dave

I would try to maintain a distinction between 235 and WtW data. Why throw away data if you have light output to spare?

So how do i set the correct contrast if you say i shall keep WTW?

In that case i have no reference to adjust to at all if i shall keep WTW.....

It seems it’s most applicable to a digital as you have to set where it clamps via B/C and calibration.
Dave


oh no, don't get Dave going on BTB/WTW, we'll never here the end of it. :p Dave, I'm only speaking for my digitial display, it is hardwired to clip BTB/WTW on the digital input,nothing I can do about it. I think many of the digital sets may do this.

So how do i set the correct contrast if you say i shall keep WTW?

In that case i have no reference to adjust to at all if i shall keep WTW.....

Likvid,
These are two different things. Allowing WTW (or BTB) is setting the mapping from your source to display gray scale codes. Contrast is setting the intensity of your peak white code. There is no hard and fast reference for setting contrast, so you set it where it is comfortable to view under your room lighting conditions. Whether you set your peak white at 235 or above(if you can) is a hotly debated topic, my own feeling is that for most viewers it won't matter.

If you have a measurement tool, you'll find that variations on contrast (and brightness) affect the gamma calculation. For analog display, you set contrast so that you get enough light our of the display and that it's behaving linear wrt grayscale tracking and gives a reasonable gamma.

constrast too high and you get too low of a gamma and nonlinear grayscale tracking.

with digital displays if constrast is too high you can also see effects such as color shifting, gamma too low and varying, etc.

but this has been said many times in other threads...

Best,
jeff

So how do i set the correct contrast if you say i shall keep WTW?

In that case i have no reference to adjust to at all if i shall keep WTW.....
Raise contrast until the +2 and +4 bars start to blend into the 235 bar, then back off until they are clearly visible again. However, greeno points out, there is much more to setting contrast that you have to take into account.

If you have a measurement tool, you'll find that variations on contrast (and brightness) affect the gamma calculation. For analog display, you set contrast so that you get enough light our of the display and that it's behaving linear wrt grayscale tracking and gives a reasonable gamma.

constrast too high and you get too low of a gamma and nonlinear grayscale tracking.

with digital displays if constrast is too high you can also see effects such as color shifting, gamma too low and varying, etc.

but this has been said many times in other threads...

Best,
jeff

yes but I was under the impression that Likvid does not have a meter, and for the case where the digital display clips WTW the only method left is by eye.

yes but I was under the impression that Likvid does not have a meter, and for the case where the digital display clips WTW the only method left is by eye.

I am old school guy, i use my eyes. ;)

oh no, don't get Dave going on BTB/WTW, we'll never here the end of it.

Well, there is one sure way to get me to shut up, force a concession and convert me. When one makes the claim that there is a BTB/WTW extension of valid image information that exists on all our properly encoded mainstream telecined material and that unless you allow for it- your puffy clouds will turn to blocky marshmallows and wrinkles in shirts will disappear then this seems easy to simulate and test. Anyone with the most basic photochop skills can easily set up such an A/B test using real images.

Lot’s of experts drop lots of verbage describing this phenomena with colorful words yet full frame lossless A/B images that demonstrates and documents this is nil. I think there should be hundreds of such A/B images scattered throughout this forum that would support the claim if it were supportable. There isn’t. Why?

I’ve largely confined my participation in this debate to this calibration forum. The mods here seem less heavy handed as long as the debate remains technical. I’ve participated and invested dozens of hours producing many A/B comparisons, measurements, and analysis only to have threads locked and deleted by mods who cite ‘protecting the forum from mis-information’ as the reason for the censorship and locking. Mods who IMO, were not in a position to judge information from misinformation.

And oh yea- It takes two to tango. :D

Dave

Since GetGray (Scott) developed his Caldisc (and I wrote the "ReadMe"), several "fine points" have been brought up by our resident calibration experts regarding definitions.

First of all, Video Black = 0% intensity = digital 16 and Video White = 100% intensity = digital 235. These are the limits of the digital signals recorded to DVDs as specified by the YCbCr transform requirements.

Secondly, BTB and WTW are not the same, except at the opposite ends of the grayscale. BTB refers to signals below Video Black, which don’t exist on DVDs. The 100% signal, on the other hand, refers to a video level more correctly stated as “Peak White” (like BTB, you aren’t supposed to have any video data higher than Video White = Peak White). However, in the recording-encoding-decoding process, you can get overshoot above the Peak White (i.e. WTW). This is a “fine point” which will have to be clarified in the next iteration of the GetGray “ReadMe” file.

This is analogous to audio where you can’t record any sound below complete silence, but you can drive the recorder above 0dB (you don’t get hard clipping of audio above the “Peak” level, although the signal distortion will increase dramatically on some recorders). This is not a true comparison, since much of the DVD video is telecined from film and it depends on how accurate the operators set the minimum black level (and they generally use CRT studio monitors which allow for BTB signals to be displayed).

Some digital displays, on some inputs, will force you to accept WTW signals and will not allow you block (clip?) signals above the Peak White level. This is not a defect in the display, but is a choice, which the manufacturer decided to make. The behavior of analog signals and CRT (they’re analog) displays is entirely different, and they can display BTB data, by design.

This “fine point” has resulted in a high degree of consternation and/or paranoia among AVS members regardless of the numerous posts, which have been made to attempt to resolve these interpretations of white levels and the setting of their display’s Contrast adjustments. I have to admit that I didn’t really understand this point either, and may have contributed to the confusion in my attempts to clear up the issue.
--------------

dlarsen, you are correct in that a properly mastered DVD will not have any information below Video Black (= digital 16) or above Video White (= digital 235). However, we all know that not all DVDs are mastered correctly (even the THX ones). Therefore, the fact exists that there may be video information above Video White and, although highly unlikely, there may be some information below Video Black. The grayscale ramps on all calibration discs (including GetGray’s) demonstrate that it is possible to use the YCbCr transforms to encode BTB and WTW (above peak white) grayscale information (it is not possible to encode color information below digital 16 or above digital 235).

However, Dave, you don’t need to burden us with your disagreements with the moderators, that doesn't lend credance to your contributions. That is a matter between you and them, please keep it that way - thank you.

BTB refers to signals below Video Black, which don’t exist on DVDs.
Another example of why this subject is so contentious.... I'm sure you'll be hearing from Mr. Wiggles about this one.... ;)

:cool:

it is not possible to encode color information below digital 16 or above digital 235Sure you can!..but values above and below (16-240) are termed "out of gamut". Just ask any CGI operator whether or not out of gamut COLORS can be carried via SMPTE SDI i.e. digital component video produced by applying a 4:2:2 sampling structure to a analog signal, a process defined by the sub-set of international standards ITU-R BT.601?

Luminance is defined as being between peak white (700mV) and black (0mv). Chroma is defined as being between max positive +350mV, and max negative -350mV. Excursions above or below are "gamut errors" and should not be used.

The quantizing levels employed in the analog to digital conversion are set to give 66.4mV headroom above peak white and 51.1mV below black. Coded Cb and Cr signals have 50mV above and below their normal maximum and minimum excursions.http://www.hamlet.co.uk/support/apps/serialbasic.html

BTW Claus, luma doesn't represent just luminance (perceived brightness), but is also influenced by the chroma values. To reconstruct luminance properly, both luma and chroma values are necessary - luminance depends on both.

me just got the ISO-GetGrayNTSC1-1.zip for 25.00 no problem burning it since i am a pc expert.
me all confused i thought you put the disc in your hd dvd player and it calbs auto your hd tv by itself.
i see all patterns and they all look good to me in right brightness and all colors .
I have a sanyo dp32746 tv i hope i did'nt waste 25.00 for this disc can someone tell me or where there is a easy picture menu to how to work this

me just got the ISO-GetGrayNTSC1-1.zip for 25.00 no problem burning it since i am a pc expert.
me all confused i thought you put the disc in your hd dvd player and it calbs auto your hd tv by itself.
i see all patterns and they all look good to me in right brightness and all colors .
I have a sanyo dp32746 tv i hope i did'nt waste 25.00 for this disc can someone tell me or where there is a easy picture menu to how to work this

You've kidding, right? You thought the HD DVD player would output all the right remote signals to magically calibrate your specific TV? And you're a PC expert? Really? Me not so sure.

well yes call me dum,on a pc there auto calb on hd ati video cards with a hd digital input monitor

ya think it'll be stupid to try and ask gray for a refund

Why don't you try reading the readme manual and actually use the DVD as it was intended? It is a great tool and will surely help you make your set reproduce images more accurately.

me just got the ISO-GetGrayNTSC1-1.zip for 25.00 no problem burning it since i am a pc expert.
me all confused i thought you put the disc in your hd dvd player and it calbs auto your hd tv by itself.
i see all patterns and they all look good to me in right brightness and all colors .
I have a sanyo dp32746 tv i hope i did'nt waste 25.00 for this disc can someone tell me or where there is a easy picture menu to how to work this

No of course it doesn't do anything automatically, it's just a disc. A DVD doesn't have arms and legs or miniature little people in there that magically crawl out of the disc and do things for you. It's just a DVD.

You use the patterns on the DVD to calibrate your system, and you do this by making adjustments to the appropriate settings as necessary. It's the same as any manual image calibration method.

There's definately a market for a good 1080P calibration disc as 480i just doesn't get it done. I still use HDNET and calibrator-preferred DVD's to calibrate my DLP.

There is a 1080P calibration disc available. Try looking for Digital Video Essentials HD .

Tim

A DVD doesn't have arms and legs or miniature little people in there that magically crawl out of the disc and do things for you.
LOL :D Amazing what some people believe isn't it Chris? ;)

I'm still waiting to see someone ask "how do you clean the mirrors in a DLP chip" :p

Thanks guys ,i have a sanyo tv ,i have 5 settings only
COLOR , TINT, CONTRAST,BRIGHTNESS,and TONE (still trying to figure what TONE is i adjust it does'nt seem to do nothing)

ok first screen of that DVD are you suppose to see the lines in the black area,i can't see them to my brightness is maxed out

geesh there was some replys here ,now there missing...
gosh what a embaressment for me.well i did'nt real want the refund ,i just thought i purchase something that was'nt right for my tv ,grey me so sorry ,guess i have to try and study the manual and see if it 'll work for me ,i am just confused on it.i better be careful next time and never leep before i look...

EaglePC: I am guessing that English is not your native language.

EaglePC -- If you didn't want a refund, why did you immediately demand one (and create a lot more problems for us and yourself)? You didn't even wait for us to help you.

If English isn't your native language, please say so.

well geesh i never even thought how good the prograg was me just a 72 yr old man,my cranky confused day,i hope grey could find forgiveness in his heart.

I removed my irritated post becasue it was not for this thread, my apologies for the static. The other posts were removed at my request. Thank you guys.

EaglePC: If you need help, start a new thread in this forum. Name it "Need help using a calibration DVD to adjust my Sanyo model XX TV". The calibrators here may be able to assist you. Lots of calibrators are watching that forum, where only a subset will be watching this thread.

Hey guys, let's get back on (technical) topic.

I bought GetGray a few weeks ago, and have been greatly enjoying using it. MUCH MUCH better than Avia or DVE for grayscale calibration!!

I have 2 oddities:

* When I downloaded the ISO, NeroExpress refused to burn it to a DVD. It kept insisting the ISO was for a CD and ejecting my DVD. I had to download the recommended freebie ImgBurn to put it on a DVD. Why??

* The resulting DVD seems to confuse my Momitsu v880N DVD player. Frequently command buttons (like NEXT, MENU, etc) don't "take" for several seconds. I might hit NEXT to go to the next chapter, and I'll sit there for 3-5 seconds before it actually responds. Most of the time it works normally, but maybe 20-30% of the time it hesitates. I've never encountered this in any other DVD. What might be causing this?

Thanks,
Gary

Gary:

> * When I downloaded the ISO, NeroExpress refused to burn it to a DVD. It kept insisting the ISO was for a CD and ejecting my DVD. I had to download the recommended freebie ImgBurn to put it on a DVD. Why??

Got me. Only Nero appears to have the issue. It is a DVD iso. It's a Nero thing apparently. Nero has been problematic in other ways. ImgBurn has worked in every time for every user I know of. See the link at the beginning of the thread for a different thread on burining and issues.

> * The resulting DVD seems to confuse my Momitsu v880N DVD player. Frequently command buttons (like NEXT, MENU, etc) don't "take" for several seconds. I might hit NEXT to go to the next chapter, and I'll sit there for 3-5 seconds before it actually responds. Most of the time it works normally, but maybe 20-30% of the time it hesitates. I've never encountered this in any other DVD. What might be causing this?>

That is indicative of less than optimal media. The DVD has a lot of navigation framework and takes advantage of the DVD spec pretty fully. Bad or lower end media often causes the behavior you describe. All media isn't equal. And "brand name" media is often low end media with a name brand label.

For regular DVD's you probably aren't jumping all over the DVD via navigation commands so the errors might not manifest themselves with the media you are used to. I strongly recommend Taiyo Yuden media, avail cheap via www.rima.com, or Verbatim media. Slow burn speeds (4x).

I bought GetGray a few weeks ago, and have been greatly enjoying using it. MUCH MUCH better than Avia or DVE for grayscale calibration!!

I have 2 oddities:

* When I downloaded the ISO, NeroExpress refused to burn it to a DVD. It kept insisting the ISO was for a CD and ejecting my DVD. I had to download the recommended freebie ImgBurn to put it on a DVD. Why??

* The resulting DVD seems to confuse my Momitsu v880N DVD player. Frequently command buttons (like NEXT, MENU, etc) don't "take" for several seconds. I might hit NEXT to go to the next chapter, and I'll sit there for 3-5 seconds before it actually responds. Most of the time it works normally, but maybe 20-30% of the time it hesitates. I've never encountered this in any other DVD. What might be causing this?

Thanks,
Gary

I had no problems with NeroExpress and have also had no issue with use on my Oppo (other than the reported stuttering).

It may be your media that is at fault.

Hi

I was wondering if the getgrey disk is any use for calibrating an xbox 360 connected to an LCD via VGA using pc video levels.

thank you
craig

Thanks Scott,

I hadn't even thought about the media quality as a possible cause. I'm using some cheapo "Value Disc" DVD+R's from Office Max. ImgBurn identifies them as CMC Magnetics (MAG-F01-00), which this site (http://www.digitalfaq.com/media/dvdmedia.htm) classifies as "3rd-class media." No surprise they're the cause, though they've been mostly fine for backups. I have a stack of Memorex DVD+R's that are classed as "2nd-class" (PRODISCR03), so I'll give one of those a try and see if it works any better. When the Memorexes run out, I'll replace them with Taiyo Yuden.

Gary

If anyone needs good discs then I think best buy has 50 TDK discs on sale this week for only 10 bucks. Hope it helps :)

I was wondering if the getgrey disk is any use for calibrating an xbox 360 connected to an LCD via VGA using pc video levels.The short answer is this DVD as well as other calibration DVDs has the same digitial information on it that a commercial Movie DVD does. Only it's arranged in patterns instead of "pictures". If you plan to play commercial DVD's then a calibration DVD will enable you to see what your video chain is (or is not) doing. That is, how it is displaying grays, and colors. If it's wrong (or right) coming off this DVD, then it is identically wrong (or right) when your video chaing is playing a commercial movie DVD. It is up to the end user to use a calibration DVD as a tool for adjusting the DVD playback video chain.

A bit off topic.....but, is there going to be an HD version?

The short answer is this DVD as well as other calibration DVDs has the same digitial information on it that a commercial Movie DVD does. Only it's arranged in patterns instead of "pictures". If you plan to play commercial DVD's then a calibration DVD will enable you to see what your video chain is (or is not) doing. That is, how it is displaying grays, and colors. If it's wrong (or right) coming off this DVD, then it is identically wrong (or right) when your video chaing is playing a commercial movie DVD. It is up to the end user to use a calibration DVD as a tool for adjusting the DVD playback video chain.

thank you mate i kinda thought that just wanted to be sure

A bit off topic.....but, is there going to be an HD version?Not until the authoring tools come down. BR was $50k and HDDVD is abour $20k. For pro level tools like the ones this DVD was created with. There is one coming out this summer for BR that is mortally priced, might try it. But there's no guarantee it won't butcher the color information, most SD tools did. Took a while to get a combination that didn't. For now, this DVD stiill works perfectly well for grayscale and for the SD part of the calibration on a multi-disc player. Grayscale is the same on SD and HD colorspace.

That is indicative of less than optimal media. ... All media isn't equal.That was it, all right. I tried burning on a Memorex ProDisc DVD, and I have no problems with it. (I notice a slight lag when I'm hitting NEXT repeatedly on the 30%/80% pattern -- 30->80 is quick, but 80->30 is slower -- but I assume that's due to the loop-back navigation. I get the same delay hitting PREV on the 30% window.) All the other patterns I checked were quick and responsive. Thanks Scott!

Gary

I removed my irritated post becasue it was not for this thread, my apologies for the static. The other posts were removed at my request. Thank you guys.

EaglePC: If you need help, start a new thread in this forum. Name it "Need help using a calibration DVD to adjust my Sanyo model XX TV". The calibrators here may be able to assist you. Lots of calibrators are watching that forum, where only a subset will be watching this thread.

Hey guys, let's get back on (technical) topic.

ok i started a new thread if any one likes to help

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=851209

Hi

I was wondering if the getgrey disk is any use for calibrating an xbox 360 connected to an LCD via VGA using pc video levels.

thank you
craig

I think you may be alluding to the issue that in the past the xbox via VGA tended to drive displays with washed out colors. The recent may xbox update added some black level settings to the xbox system slice control panel.

and yes the get grey can help you tweek your settings. You just need to make sure that you try the different xbox black level settings and then calibrate to taste.

Hi

I was wondering if the getgrey disk is any use for calibrating an xbox 360 connected to an LCD via VGA using pc video levels.

thank you
craig

I think you may be alluding to the issue that in the past the xbox via VGA tended to drive displays with washed out colors. Especially with HDTV displays. The recent may xbox update added some black level settings to the xbox system slice control panel.

and yes the get grey can help you tweek your settings. You just need to make sure that you try the different xbox black level settings and then calibrate to taste.

I have noticed a big vertical size difference when I set HDMI 720p and 1080i overscan using GetGray from my Oppo 970HD vs. the pattern broadcast by InHD from the SA8300HD cable box. The horizontal sizes are about the same, but it seems like the Oppo vertical is much shorter than the SA8300HD cable box. My guess is the Oppo is correct, but I am not sure. Has anyone run into this? Both are going through a switch to the HDMI port, so I have to adjust it when changing sources.

Not unusual for different sources to have different vertical sync / porch values which can result in different sizes.

Also the TV may be scaling them differently.

I have noticed a big vertical size difference when I set HDMI 720p and 1080i overscan using GetGray from my Oppo 970HD vs. the pattern broadcast by InHD from the SA8300HD cable box. The horizontal sizes are about the same, but it seems like the Oppo vertical is much shorter than the SA8300HD cable box. My guess is the Oppo is correct, but I am not sure. Has anyone run into this? Both are going through a switch to the HDMI port, so I have to adjust it when changing sources.
I agree you will see that happen on different sources. One must tune them all. I use a Lumagen HDP and love it for several features. One of them is I can adjust that setup for the various sources, and it's a built in "switch". Only downside to it is it can't take 1080p input only 1080i. But I dont' have a 1080p source right now so I'm still OK.

I have noticed a big vertical size difference when I set HDMI 720p and 1080i overscan using GetGray from my Oppo 970HD vs. the pattern broadcast by InHD from the SA8300HD cable box. The horizontal sizes are about the same, but it seems like the Oppo vertical is much shorter than the SA8300HD cable box. My guess is the Oppo is correct, but I am not sure. Has anyone run into this? Both are going through a switch to the HDMI port, so I have to adjust it when changing sources.

You might check the 970 thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=682896. The 970 and some other players using the same Mediatek chip have a known vertical compression issue. There is a firmware patch available from Oppo, but you have to contact customer support to get it.

-Bill

I will try to get the patch, Thanks! I thought is was strange that the SA8300HD is at about 3% with my display set at its defaults, but I had to almost peg the vertical adjustment to get the Oppo to 3% vertical. I just checked and it does not have this issue at 480P.

As for the Lumagen, I will add this to my list of reasons to eventually fit it into the budget and buy one :)

I agree you will see that happen on different sources. One must tune them all. I use a Lumagen HDP and love it for several features. One of them is I can adjust that setup for the various sources, and it's a built in "switch". Only downside to it is it can't take 1080p input only 1080i. But I dont' have a 1080p source right now so I'm still OK.
The newer firmware allows for 1080p/24/25/30 input, so you should be set for Bluray players that support native 1080p/24 output. I use an LG BH100 set to 1080p with my Lumagen with great results. Sorry for the OT.

The newer firmware allows for 1080p/24/25/30 input, so you should be set for Bluray players that support native 1080p/24 output. I use an LG BH100 set to 1080p with my Lumagen with great results. Sorry for the OT.Excellent! Not to get off on a tangent, but this piece of equipment has given me the best service. I can't say how much I like their ongoing and timely updates. It's the best maintained (via firmware) equipment I have *ever* owned. I've never seen anything like it. It is a very nice addition to one's system. Highly recommend.

I've read through much of this thread, but I'm still a little confused about the blue filter. I currently have DVE, but not Avia. A few people have mentioned that the DVE blue filter is a little bit "off".

Since the THX Optimizer Glasses are only $4 shipped, is it worth it? Will I get better results that way, or should I just use the DVE filter with the GetGray disc?

You may get the same results with the DVE blue filter as with the THX "glasses" in most cases.

The main difference, from reading "between the lines" of various threads, is that the DVE blue filter has more UV filtering (the DVE filter works better with plasma displays - which can have a significant UV output). If you have a plasma display, the DVE filter will actually work better. Otherwise they seem to yield equivalent results (at least on my LCD & DLP PJs and TVs).

NOTE: I have DVE, AVIA and the GetGray caldisc and 3 pairs of THX optimizer glasses. I like the glasses, because I can wear them while I'm doing the adjusting, which leaves both hands free to twiddle the controls.

Does anyone know where to buy the THX glasses (other than ordering them online)?

Nope! The only way you can get them is by ordering them directly from the THX site.

You may get the same results with the DVE blue filter as with the THX "glasses" in most cases.

The main difference, from reading "between the lines" of various threads, is that the DVE blue filter has more UV filtering (the DVE filter works better with plasma displays - which can have a significant UV output). If you have a plasma display, the DVE filter will actually work better. Otherwise they seem to yield equivalent results (at least on my LCD & DLP PJs and TVs).

NOTE: I have DVE, AVIA and the GetGray caldisc and 3 pairs of THX optimizer glasses. I like the glasses, because I can wear them while I'm doing the adjusting, which leaves both hands free to twiddle the controls.


Yup, plasma here. Since it sounds like I don't need to worry about calibration results, it's just a matter of whether I want to spend $4 for convenience. :p

Thanks!

I am about to calibrate my Pioneer PRO-FHD1 using GetGray for patterns, DTP-94 for measuring and HCFR for capturing readings. My source is a Sony PS3 running thru a Pioneer AV receiver.

While doing an initial run thru the patterns to see what everything looked like I found something interesting. The 20-step greyscale pattern doesn't show well defined steps unless the PS3 is set to upconvert. I thought I read somewhere that GetGray was done in 720p so maybe this problem is caused by the PS3 downscaling to 480p which explains why everything looks so good when upscaled.

My question is if there is any drawback to upscaling GetGray output? Will that affect the colors or patterns in any way?

Thanks;
-Dave.

Dave, the GetGray Caldisc was done as a standard DVD (720 x 480). As such, it is mastered as a 480i (widescreen) video, not 720p.

What you ae seeing is the behavior of the PS3 and your display, and not the DVD. Upscaling will not effect the usefullness of the Caldisc (whether or not it's done by your display or the PS3). Since the Pioneer PRO-FHD1 is a 1920 x 1080 Plasma display, everything will be upconverted to 1080p, regardless of what is sent to it.

For those of you who have used multiple calibration discs:

If I'm going to use the GetGray DVD anyway, should I even bother with DVE and/or AVIA? Would they supplement the GetGray disc, or is that pretty much a one-stop solution?

I want to get the best picture possible, but I don't want to waste my time with other discs if I don't have to.

For those of you who have used multiple calibration discs:

If I'm going to use the GetGray DVD anyway, should I even bother with DVE and/or AVIA? Would they supplement the GetGray disc, or is that pretty much a one-stop solution?

I want to get the best picture possible, but I don't want to waste my time with other discs if I don't have to.

I have both AVIA and DVE, but GetGray is all I use. The other discs do have "more", but I haven't had the patience to explore them. GetGray is so much quicker for what I do, and I like the patterns better.

-Bill

I have both AVIA and DVE, but GetGray is all I use. The other discs do have "more", but I haven't had the patience to explore them. GetGray is so much quicker for what I do, and I like the patterns better.

-Bill
I could not have said it better.

Jim

What they said. I have all 3 and GG is all I use -- for grayscales &etc anyway. If you want audio test tones &etc, which GG doesn't have, Avia is good. I've never liked DVE -- only reason I ever used it was because it was 16:9 (standard SD Avia isn't) so it was better for setting geometry. But GG is better.

I use the GetGray Caldisc exclusively, even though I have both AVIA & DVE. I prefer the Rives CD2 for audio calibation: http://www.rivesaudio.com/software/softframes.html.

GetGray also has by far the best documentation.

GetGray also has by far the best documentation.Claus (CT_Wiebe) gets the credit for that.

I use the GetGray Caldisc exclusively, even though I have both AVIA & DVE. I prefer the Rives CD2 for audio calibation: http://www.rivesaudio.com/software/softframes.html.

Same here for both. :)

Does GetGray have a cross hatch to check for convergence for a front CRT projector?

No. It was designed for fixed pixel displays, so there are no CRT specific test patterns. Read the "ReadMe" file, it's free at www.calibrate.tv (near the bottom of the page).

Can I get the filters from you, are yours in a card, etc.?Had a rash of PM's and emails lately, I guess from mentions of the GetGray DVD in other threads and a few ISF guys coming out of ISF classes. I guess this thread has pushed itself off so they aren't seeing it. Excuse the bump, please.

Yes, contributors can get the filters from me with some extra trouble. I recommend the THX glasses but I do have the filters available. See the website for details.

For those who are using (pieces of) film filters: I recommend turning them into "glasses". Get a pair of cardboard 3-D glasses (Spykids 3-D DVD, or make some, etc.). Push/cutout the 3-D filters, cut the colored (i.e. blue) film to fit the glass's hole (with plenty of overlap) Scotch tape them to the glasses. Voila, hands free 2-eye filters. If possible, use dark glasses or color the cardboard inside black before taping the blue filters. It makes using the filters a whole lot easier than trying to hold with one hand, and mess with a remote on the other hand, while trying to concentrate on the differene between the blinking boxes.


HTH, Scott

I just purchased GG and used it on my Panasonic 32" LCD using a Toshiba HDDVD player upscaling to 1080i.

Is "Picture" the same as Contrast? I don't have a Contrast menu item.

Blacker than Black I was able to calibrate perfectly, but Whiter than White I couldn't get the plus side bars to go a way on the individual Contrast image.

I used the dual Brightness and Contrast image to calibrate and with that I was able to get the WtW to behave. I also noticed that I had to bump my backlight way up to +20 (range is -30 to +30) in order to get the WtW to calibrate.

The color section was easy and my Avia blue filter worked okay. This TV can't turn on just one color at a time.

I am receiving my SpyderTV Colorimeter today and I'll pair GG with that this evening.

Okay got the Spyder, now what? I ran the Spyder with he wizard and things are okay, but I'm not convinced they look better than GG. Any suggestions on using the both of them together?

New DLP/HD-DVD owner needs help:
I've been reading reviews and comments about calibration discs & stumbled across GetGray. It seems like most users are very happy with the results and ease of use. Unless I'm misunderstanding GetGray is not HD. Will I be losing something by calibrating with GetGray vs the Avia/DVE HD versions? I'm concerned about calibrating with a 480 disc thinking that I'll be missing something with the lower resolution.

I had been set on waiting for Avia II (which hasn't been released yet) but might try GetGray is the 480 resolution isn't an issue.

Thanks for the input to a DLP noob.

New DLP/HD-DVD owner needs help:
It seems like most users are very happy with the results and ease of use. Unless I'm misunderstanding GetGray is not HD. Will I be losing something by calibrating with GetGray vs the Avia/DVE HD versions? I'm concerned about calibrating with a 480 disc thinking that I'll be missing something with the lower resolution.


I, like yourself, am a noob. I found GG very good at getting the the Brightness and Contrast and Color and Tint just right using it on my HD LCD using HDMI and a HD DVD player upscaling to 1080i.

I then compared the results with a SpyderTV and found that my manual settings pretty much matched those of the Spyder.

I am only talking about my eyeballs and not expensive color spectrum analysis equipment, but my set is now what I was expecting when I bought it.

wish,

The problem isn't really a resolution one, it's a colour space, or more correctly a colour space conversion problem.

GetGray is authored using the SD-DVD colourspace, aka Rec 601.

HD material is authored using the HD colourspace, aka Rec 709.

Depending on your player it may or may not do the correct colourspace transformations. Specifically, if your set it calibrated using a 601 source/signal and you feed it a 709 signal then the colours will be off a bit. The same is true in reverse.

Ultimately if you are using GetGray to calibrate your TV for use with an SD-DVD player, you will be fine. Whether those settings are usable for HD source from cable/satellite/HD-player is somewhat of a crapshoot.

Hope that helped.