New calibration disc [Text View] - Page 9

HogPilot

10-29-08, 03:03 AM

While I'm sure the GetGray is a fine product for someone a little more adept at this then I, for someone such as myself it was complete waste of money and I should of never bought and downloaded the product. I had a 25 buck brain fart and wouldn't recommend it to any casual t.v. watcher.

For 25 bucks what I can "calibrate" I could do just as well by looking at the picture and just deciding what I like and don't like regarding picture adjustment. Looking at a few gray unadjustable gray scales is useless to me.

Sorry, complete waste and wouldn't mind my money back.

Well, don't buy a tool that you don't know how to use and then call it useless because you didn't take the time to figure it out. There's a summary on Scott's website that outlines exactly what is on this disc, so the onus is really on you if you bought the product as a uninformed customer.

The DVD is used all over the world in places I didn't even know had houses, much less TV's.

Scott, I have one to add to your "all over the world" list:

I'm currently on my 5th deployment to the Middle East, and every deployment I've brought a "travel projector" that I set up in my small 10'x10' room. Trips 1-4 I had an old LCD InFocus SP5000, and this trip I "upgraded" to an Optoma HD72. My screen has always been a white twin bedsheet folded in half and tacked to the wall to keep it flat and wrinkle free, and my XBox360 does double duty as a gaming platform and a DVD player.

This deployment I used a copy of GetGrey, an inexpensive Silk tripod I ordered through AAFES (free shipping to the desert!), HFCR on my laptop, and my i1 to calibrate the greyscale to D65 on my Optoma. During the little time we're not flying or at work, we can usually be found playing Halo3/COD4 or watching movies on the "big screen" (as everyone else calls it). Thanks to your disc, I rest happily in the knowledge that the other 5 dudes who sardine themselves into my tiny room for a brief respite from the daily grind are all getting the best picture in the AOR! Yep, it's crazy but most things about this hobby are. Thanks for all your great work on a phenomenal disc, you rock Scott!!

cvearl

10-31-08, 10:50 AM

While I'm sure the GetGray is a fine product for someone a little more adept at this then I, for someone such as myself it was complete waste of money and I should of never bought and downloaded the product. I had a 25 buck brain fart and wouldn't recommend it to any casual t.v. watcher.

For 25 bucks what I can "calibrate" I could do just as well by looking at the picture and just deciding what I like and don't like regarding picture adjustment. Looking at a few gray unadjustable gray scales is useless to me.

Sorry, complete waste and wouldn't mind my money back.

Dood. You need help. Why not ask for it before freaking out. The disk works pretty much as intended and more or less exactly like all the others for the most part. I have tested 2 others against it.

You either have NOT read the manual or simply don't understand the steps of calibration...

#1. Get your components set up right first where they should be (Cinema mode or accurate mode on the TV and WARM or NORMAL temp depending on the TV and set the player to the right settings before starting a calibration.)
#2. Set brightness (they provide you a pattern and instructions)
#3. Set Contrast (they provide you a pattern and instructions)
#4. Set Color and Tint (they provide a pattern and instructions and TELL YOU TO GET A BLUE FILTER).

The only thing I would change to make it dummy proof is have a Joe HDTV owner's basic calibration section in the manual at the front and THEN a "You need expensive equipment and training to use the following patterns in this next section" type area later in the manual. They also need to point out that the calibration is a "per combination calibration" type thing. Essentially THIS BD or DVD PLAYER and THIS TV over THIS kind of connection. You can get your player and TV in perfect harmony, but then your cable or satalite signal is different and this disk will NOT dial those in for you. You probably need to do that by eye. My DIGITAL cable supplier has a pattern but it is so out of whack that I have to go by eye. But that is not GetGray's fault. Unless the Cable company were somehow able to push patterns from the disk (or any other product) through your cable to your house, this is nearly impossible. Then every channel is different from that same supplier as well. So really. These products are only good for one thing. Home Theater Calibration. For the rest you are on your own.

While many of us can get the Brightness, Contrast, Color and Tint kind of close to correct by eye, this product is for those that want to dial it in just a little more and or confirm what their eye sees. That's all. Expecting anything more is silly.

C.

cvearl

10-31-08, 11:50 AM

Well I have tested three products now. THX Optimizer, DVE HD Basics and Getgray. I have gone back and fourth between these three and they all pretty muh agree on the settings I have arrived at. This tells me that Getgray is accurate in a comparative sense. Each product has it's strengths and weeknesses and I wish they could all be combined together. Here is my interpretation...

NOTE: This is on a Panasonic TH42PZ85 42" Plasma with a Panasonic BD30 BD player over HDMI direct to the TV.

I have the THX Glasses and the Lee Filters as described in the Getgray documentation. Those filters basically match the ones I got with DVE.

NOTE: On all settings, THX and Getgray bascially arrived at the exact same settings. They confirm eachother. :)

BRIGHTNESS - DVE arrived at the same Brightness using their Pluge Pattern as THX and Getgray arrive at. So all three arrive at the exact same brightness. And that is great! Getgray works perfectly fine in this regard. I would however add to the manual that in digital displays, you can also look really close at the screen and raise the brightness until you see noise in the black background and then lower it until that noise just vanishes and the 2 black bars should still be in view as well. That is almost perfect and works on EVERY brightness pattern I have played with now. Credit for that tip goes to Hometheatermag.com in the experts advice section.

Differences on DVE...

CONTRAST - DVE arrives at a different contrast. This is because of the instructions and not the patterns. DVE tells you to make ALL the WHITE bars distinct. Even the last 2. The last 2 are Maximum White and 5% above White. This is the same as Getgrays pattern but Getgray explains that the correct Contrast setting is when the Above White (Whiter than White) and the Maximum White (100% White) are the same to your eye. At the moment they match, stop raising the Contrast. You can do the same on the DVE pattern. If I use DVE's recommendations for have all the upper white bars (including the last one 5% above white) distinct from eachother, I end up at 70 Contrast or perhaps 80 depending on abient light in the room. If I use Getgrays or THX's instructions I can go as high as 90 or even 100. I guess I find myself wondering... WHY??? Why are 2 different products telling me to do 2 different things? I tend to agree with Getgray and THX though. They describe Video Levels for DVD to be 16 Black to 235 White and that levels outside those two points of the scale are technically not supposed to be shown on DIGITAL FIXED PIXEL DISPLAYS for film where as DVE describes the use of the pattern while all the while refering to CRT displays. This leads me to believe that, while the patterns on all three products are correct, DVE's instructions are not correct for DIGITAL FIXED PIXEL displays. Am I right here? Is that the reason for the discrepancy? Because I can tell you this. At 90 to 100 Contrast (on my TV specifically), the colors and depth of field are superior to if I use 60 to 80 Contrast. I especially notice it in moderately dark scenes. 60 or 70 and even 80 Contrast makes the scene murky in darker spots of the scene. Like an ever so slight milky film look to it. And colors just don't punch right.

COLOR - Color and TINT are the hard ones here too. With DVE, they provide 3 filters. Red Green and Blue. The general instructions are to use the blue filter the same as the other two products recommend in a special pattern to dial in color and then tint. They all do that exactly. If I do that, they all agree on the exact same color and tint settings. But DVE takes it once step further. You can check the Red and Green channels after and you MIGHT have to pull tint one way or the other. Here's my example.... If I dial in Blue channel with a blue filter with the pattern. Bingo. I got it. I can actually dial in Tint to the blue filter as well. All three procuts arrive at 44 color and -6 tint using that. HOWEVER! something was off. I followed instructions. But what's wrong. Well. faces were just a little more red than they should be. WHAT!? Hahahaha. Well. Lucky DVE has a trick up it's sleeve. Green and Red Filters and a pattern that works with all three colors. With TINT at -6 (as recommended by all three products only using BLUE), I then check the RED CHANNEL, red has gone almost florescent! This makes sence as I drove the Tint into a more red position at -6. I check the green channel and Green has been pushed into an undersaturated position. Well ya. I had moved away from Green a touch. The fix is to raise tint away from RED (negative numbers) back towards GREEN (Positive numbers). The right tint level was actually ZERO if I am looking at all three channels as opposed to just blue. Even though the blue filter show tint out just by a hair, the red channel Primaries are perfect and thier tintsfor red and green channels are nearly perfect as well but more importantly, all three primary's are bang on perfect when viewing through the filters. I stuck with 44 Color and 0 Tint.

So here are the awards...

THX

Pro's - nearly FREE and very fast and simple to use. Patterns are on all THX DVD's in the options menu but you need a $2.00 pair of glasses shipped to you and that cost me almost $15 at the end of the day. So NOT so free. ;)

Cons - Not always sure you have contrast at it's optimum. Their Contrast test can only tell you when you are too high. But that's all. I would not completely rely on it for 100% correct contrast setting. Just that's it's ok to check if you have overdone it. Completely unable to confirm if your Tint setting has blown out the other 2 primaries of Red and Green.

DVE HD Basics

Pro's - Some sample material on the disk but that's mainly fluff. Allows the user to check Red and Green channels as well with Filters. Great for checking if your Tint has blown up your other primaries.

Con's - They sent the wrong Filters. I got no Blue. I cannot contact them for support. No number or email on the official site. I would have to chase Amazon for that and we know where that would lead. Nowhere fast. Use of the Reverse Greyscale RAMPS pattern is described more for CRT and could result in an incorrect Contrast setting on a fixed pixel display. This is only my opinion though and I am just a joe user. See my comments on Contrast above.

Getgray

Pro's - Fairly easy to use. Bang on Brightness same as the other 2. Contrast is WAY easier to set with their instructions and the picture ends up resulting in a better overall PQ to me. As a result of the contrast Getgray arrives at (Generally higher than DVE likes), my colors are more vibrant yet still accurate and depth of feild is better as a result as well. This is not because DVE's patterns are wrong. Just the direction given with Getgray about Video Levels 16 - 235 is more accurate for fixed pixel devices (Or I am assuming they are) allowing the user possibly a more accurate Contrast setting. Which in turn gives a better Greyscale which in turn allows for color to look better. ect...

Con's - Would be helpfull to have Red and Green based patterns right after the blue based one? Or at least their uses described and recommended that you get the Red and Green Filters as well to make sure your not pulling Red and Green out when dialing the tint with just the blue filter. The SMPTE pattern they provide works for this but you need to be told (until you already know better) to use the Red and Green Filters.

I am always open to criticism as I understand I am no calibrator. Just going on what I have been reading and using some common sense.

C.

That Don Guy

10-31-08, 07:45 PM

cvearl

11-01-08, 10:11 AM

I tried burning 1.1 onto a DVD-R with Nero Express, but it kept telling me that I had a CD .iso file. When I noticed that the file would, in fact, fit onto a CD, I burned it onto a blank CD-R, then copied the resulting folders onto a DVD-R with Nero Express. While the DVD worked fine on a Sony RDR-GX300 DVD recorder, my Sony BDP-S350 Blu-Ray player (with the latest firmware) kept choking on it - it got to the main menu fine, but after selecting something, the player would freeze up.

I burned another DVD-R using Express Burn (aka imgburn), and that works a little better on the BDP-S350; all of the screens show up, but some tend to freeze after a few seconds.

(Now, all I have to do is figure out why I can't get the "above white" bars to match the "maximum white" bar, but that's a subject for my plasma TV's forum.)

-- Don

Hmmm...

I used Nero 7 Essentials. I did a DVD-R and it was perfect.

Under the Backups Menu I used "Burn Image to Disk" and browsed to the ISO and it created a perfect disk for me. Works perfect on a BD30 and the DAV-HDX475 Sony Home Theater's DVD player.

I used Minimum Burn Speed though. When you get to the screen after you have selected the ISO file and you are at the Final Burn Settings screen there is a bar with an error on the edge of that window and you can open it up to expose additional burn options and mine defaults to like 48X speed but I bumped it down to the slowest. That helps compatability issues across various players.

C.

cvearl

11-01-08, 10:49 AM

CT_Wiebe

11-02-08, 05:10 AM

Can Getgray comment on this? This is a snipit from a conversation I am having on the differences between instructions on some disks versus others when explaining how to arrive at the right Contrast (white level) settings...

"there is confusion and disagreement.

Keep in mind that the reference remains the CRT, and everything to 255 is visible on a CRT if setup properly because a CRT doesn't clip.

A digital clips, and has a limited on/off CR range, so you must make a compromise between higher CR (setting the displays extremes to 16-235) or maintaining the entire video range (16-254), or some compromise between there.

Keep in mind that the standards call for nominal reference points at 16 and 235, but allocate the entire 1-254 range for video, so content regularly excurses beyond 235, which is nominally reference white. Whether that is important to you or not is your decision. It is important to distinguish between reference white (235) and peak white (254). It is also important to appreciate that in reference systems and in the studio that this range is not clipped."

Essentially your documentation says...

Although DVD's are created with "video levels" (levels 16-235), some DVD's may contain video information that falls outside the video level limits. The GetGray DVD is encoded to intentionally contain below black and above white information, to enable the calibrator to have full visual information when calibrating. Some calibrators prefer to adjust so a display shows some "below black" information and/or some "above white" information. The author recommends no below black, and possibly 1 step above white, but this is just a personal calibrators preference. Showing some above white information for example may reveal some bright white details (i.e. in bright sky clouds that may have otherwise been clipped). Strictly technically speaking, not showing information outside of 16-235 is correct

REPLY: Since I wrote those "instructions" for Scott (GetGray), I think I'm somewhat qualified to respond to your questions. The video standards (for YCbCr encoding) specify that Video Black (0% stimulus) = digital 16 and Video White (100% stimulus) = digital 235. This does not preclude the mastering studios from exceeding these limits. In addition, many flat panel displays will not allow adjustment of the White Level as stated in the "instructions" (this fact has been commented on many times in this thread).

And this guys says...

the standards call for nominal reference points at 16 and 235, but allocate the entire 1-254 range for video, so content regularly excurses beyond 235, which is nominally reference white. Whether that is important to you or not is your decision. It is important to distinguish between reference white (235) and peak white (254). It is also important to appreciate that in reference systems and in the studio that this range is not clipped

REPLY: There is nothing to prohibit the mastering studios from using the stimulus range outside of the 0% to 100% stimulus range (digital 16-235). Studio monitors have to be able to display the entire digital 1 to 254 range to monitor exactly what is being mastered. They also show a significant part of the horizontal scan range, for the same reason (even though no consumer display can display the "horizontal blanking interval").

THX says...

Motion pictures are mastered in a room that's moderately dark. White levels (contrast) are adjusted to 35-foot lamberts using a light meter and a signal very much like what's provided by THX Optimizer. We don't expect you to use a light meter, but the THX Optimizer test has been designed to deliver results very close to what's achieved during mastering. And in this pattern on THX's disk, even 100 Contrast is NOT clipping white for me so I am not exceeding 35 FL right? If I were, would I not be crushing the whites in their pattern?

REPLY: The mastering room has to have controlled ambient light, so that the technicians can see what they are doing. They are also using professional CRT studio monitors which have to be setup for precise viewing conditions. 35 ft-L is not an unreasonable white level for a small (relatively) CRT monitor. It is also not an unreasonable for a moderate sized flat panel display, but is way too bright for a front projector on a 100"+ screen, with no ambient light present.

This 35 ft-L on the mastering room monitor has absolutely no relation to what the output of your display is (and some displays will exhibit clipping at levels below 35 ft-L).

So does this all really boil down to preference only? Or is there truely a hard fast rule that is correct when calibrating Contrast?

C.The bottom line is that you can set your display to whatever you want. However, adjusting it to a set of standards (which the GetGray Caldisc is, to the best of Scott's ability, with the help of some other AVS members who are ISF certified calibrators) will get you as close to the correct video standards as is possible. Using just your eyeballs and the disc, will get you about 80% to 85% of the way there. Using the GetGray Caldisc with a good colorimeter such as the Display LT or i1pro and good calibration software to run it and record the data will get you over 90% of the way to "as good as it gets". If you hire a professional calibrator to do it for you, can get you even closer.

However, with any calibration, even with a professional calibration, you may not like how your display looks. This is because of your personal preferences, which can be strongly biased by years of looking at uncalibrated (although possibly "adjusted" by a "competent" technician to non-standard criteria) displays.

cvearl

11-02-08, 10:10 AM

The bottom line is that you can set your display to whatever you want. However, adjusting it to a set of standards (which the GetGray Caldisc is, to the best of Scott's ability, with the help of some other AVS members who are ISF certified calibrators) will get you as close to the correct video standards as is possible. Using just your eyeballs and the disc, will get you about 80% to 85% of the way there. Using the GetGray Caldisc with a good colorimeter such as the Display LT or i1pro and good calibration software to run it and record the data will get you over 90% of the way to "as good as it gets". If you hire a professional calibrator to do it for you, can get you even closer.

However, with any calibration, even with a professional calibration, you may not like how your display looks. This is because of your personal preferences, which can be strongly biased by years of looking at uncalibrated (although possibly "adjusted" by a "competent" technician to non-standard criteria) displays.

Thank you so much for the reply.

I am getting from this that it is correct to unclip the bars above 235 by lowering contrast just as it is correct to leave the whites above 235 clipped then. It is a matter of preference and basically something that can be seasoned to taste basically?

I find this pattern (reverse grey scale) difficult to make the right decision with then because I can lower my contrast almost below 50 (if I recall correctly) before that pattern starts to look wrong on this PZ85 I own when going by DVE's description.

If you go by DVE's descirption of the Greyscale pattern, I end up around 70 to 80 and with Getgrays descirption I end up at around 90 and even 100 does not "break and rules of Getgrays instructions".

There does not seem to be any definative "do this and when it does that, you are done" answer to Contrast. Brightness was a piece of cake and the setting of blue channel with a filter is too. Those two settings are absolute for the most part. All three calibration tools I own come to the exact same setting. Contrast is all over the place by comparison.

I can say this though. If I use Getgray's pattern and then lower the contrast until the bars over 235 are different and then start raising contrast again until the precise moment that 235 looks like the next bar up from it and the 5% above white bar is just barely visible from the background to the point of almost not being able to point it out, I arrive at about 90 and it seems to work every time. The greyscale looks rich and crisp and delinieated with very accurate stepping whereas when I unclip above 235 they way other instructions read, the greyscale does not look as potent if that makes sense.

I guess I will stick with the higher side of the contrast. It just looks better when viewing movies. :D

C.

GetGray

11-03-08, 09:29 AM

Sorry, very busy and only skimmed the extensive conversation. I think I have the jist of the question. What I meant to convey in the docs, and what is widely understood IMO is this:

1. Video levels are 16-235. 0% stimulus = 16 = black. 100% stimulus = 235 = white. I do not use the term IRE because it is often misused and ambigious. DVE takes this road, too. Read Chris Wiggles go-to guide for source settings for an extensive discussion including the technical things that lead to this. Thread here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=4969789#post4969789

2. All I know of agree brightness settings (black level for newcomers) are properly set when you cannot see anything below digital 16.

3. Whites come as more of a calibrators preference. Technically, all you should be able to see is digital 235 and below. However, some claim telecine operators sometimes allow higher (above white) levels on source material. I have seen arguments both ways. Personally, I allow a little (but not much) above white. I would rather apply the dynamic range to what is supposed to be there all the time vs. the occasional overshoot into what isn't.

4. Note that some devices in the video chain may actually "clip" the levels above or below black(16) or white(235). Throw in "PC levels" which are NOT for video material, and a component that may be set to use them, and then is it throughly muddied and confused, especially amoung beginners, as to what is doing what to whom. If you want to understand it, I highly recommend studying the thread mentioned above. It is right, it is the basis for understanding this issue, and is a good read, albeit lengthy.

5. What should be #1 on a FAQ for setting contrast (white level) on digital displays: "My device won't make the above white bars dissappear, why?" Unfortunately, there is no easy answer. But usually, it has to do with the electronics of the video display device. You may not be able to make them "fade away". In those cases, you are left to look for any color shifting as you raise the contrast which menas one of your R,G, or B colors has "run out of steam" and you should lover the contrast. You can look for special setting on the display that are trying to "help" you, and disable. But generally, it's best to ask in the calibration forum, " I have device xxx and I am having trouble setting setting its contrast using a calibration DVD". The calibrators there can assist you in determining the casue, workaround, or best course of action.

Remember the GetGray DVD is just a DVD to allow one to see how the display is putting out the various colors and shades of gray. If they are displayed wrong (or right) on this DVD, then your video chain is doing the same thing when you play a standard DVD. Other than being spot on accurate in color and gray-scale, there is nothing magic about the DVD. It just has all the images you need to see how your display does (or does not) display correct info.

HTH, Scott

cvearl

11-03-08, 03:33 PM

CT_Wiebe

11-04-08, 12:32 AM

jimwhite

11-04-08, 12:41 AM

Who, exactly, IS Chris Wiggles ??

cvearl

11-04-08, 11:22 AM

cvearl -- The bottom line is that there should be no "color shifting" across the grayscale, regardless if you are "clipping" at digital 235 (100% stimulus) or higher (to allow for some "above white" video output).

As Scott said, the Chris Wiggles guide, that he provided the link to, is the reference that should be read to understand the concepts involved.

Your conclusion as to the higher White Level setting may well be the best for your display.

I am happy that guide exists. I have read through it a few times now and as a result, I can now answer my friends questions and better help him calibrate HIS chain of hardware to HIS display with HIS connections and not some numbers he found on the web and just assuming they are the best.

I still have not decided where I prefer my contrast at this point for my BD player over HDMI. But now I understand that either setting is still mostly accurate.

I can say this. The results the Getgray disk and accompanying instructions arrive at are every bit as good as those arrived at with DVE. Great disk fellas! regardless of if I clip or not clip over white, the picture is superb at the end of the process. Perhaps putting a 5 minute calibration procedure in the beginning of the documentation for those without the special equipment would make the product more noob friendly. But otherwise it's fantastic.

As for THX Optimizer on Lucas DVD's? In the digital domain, their contrast screen needs work I think since using their instructions with that screen in digital can arrive at Any setting from as low as 50 to as high as 100 on my TV. It's far too ambiguous. It's seems more geared to the Analogue domain in my experiments. Which makes sense as they expected more of that out there.

I concure that people read Chris's source settings guide if they are having problems getting their DEVICE CHAIN and DISPLAY combo working as expected. :)

C.

cvearl

11-04-08, 12:21 PM

Opinion here needed. I have calibrated with Getgray as you know.

When I calibrate COLOR to the BLUE channel using the blue filter and make Blue Primary perfect, the tint is off slightly. Before I play with TINT, I go check RED and GREEN with my red and green filters in your other 75% color windows and I see that RED PRIMARY is perfect and GREEN PRIMARY is perfect (compared to the reference white box). Well then GREAT! So far so good. Now I go back to my blue filter and make the TINT bang on correct when viewed through blue. It was not really far off when looking through the blue filter but I needed to drop to -6 on TINT and it becomes 100% visually perfect. Set like that, I can't see anything but blue now in your pattern and it's all uniform. Here is the dilema. I go re-check red and green with my red and green filters and the primaries are off now as a result of the -6 tint setting. Red is a shade high (looks a little flourescent) and green is a shade low (looks a little darker than it should be. The only way to make them right is take TINT back to 0 on my set and they are bang on again. But this is at the expense of having the tint slightly off in the blue channel (by about 1 shade or so).

Which is the best option of those 2 settings from an accuracy standpoint from the view of a calibrator?...

1. All three primaries bang on perfect but with the blue channel's tint being a shade off? Or

2. Having the blue channel 100% dialed in for color AND tint at the expense of a red that is pushing a little hard and a green that is a shade darker than it should be?

Just curious.

C.

ChrisWiggles

11-04-08, 01:51 PM

Who, exactly, IS Chris Wiggles ??

I am plotting global domination.

ChrisWiggles

11-04-08, 01:54 PM

ChrisWiggles

11-04-08, 02:12 PM

3. Whites come as more of a calibrators preference. Technically, all you should be able to see is digital 235 and below. However, some claim telecine operators sometimes allow higher (above white) levels on source material. I have seen arguments both ways. Personally, I allow a little (but not much) above white. I would rather apply the dynamic range to what is supposed to be there all the time vs. the occasional overshoot into what isn't.

I would just quibble about the characterization that "technically" 235 is the peak white point and that there shouldn't be (or isn't) anything beyond that. There is ambiguity and contradiction in the standards terminology, for understandable but unfortunate reason. I find Poynton's clear way of characterizing 235 as reference white and 254 as peak white very effective. 709 is confusing because it describes 235 as peak white, however also is explicitly clear in defining 16-235 as the nominal excursion, and explicitly allocates 1-254 for video data, and describes values below reference black and above reference white for toeroom and headroom. The goal is to have most all the content stay below the nominal white point of 235, but preserve some headroom above this for specular highlights, highly saturated features, and other detail that can be threatened without some amount of peak white headroom.

It is not surprising then, that in well mastered content, excursion beyond 235 is minimal, but it still remains for peak white features, and is visibly degraded when that detail gets clipped off in the playback chain. Less stringent terminology describing 235 might leave many mastering houses trying to push nominal whites well above that all the way close to 254 in a "brightness" war kind of like the loudness wars in audio which we all despise. But read fully and understood more completely, it is very explicit that occassional excursion beyond nominal white 235 is not only allowed, but expected, and that headroom is explicitly designed into video standards to maintain the integrity and quality of the content. Ideally, we'd all be watching on reference CRTs, which don't clip, and on playback systems that don't clip, but for many reasons CRTs have fallen out of favor for home viewing since the viewing environment and needs are often significantly different.

The question of where to set a digital display's clip point is unique, again because in the studio on a CRT this problem is not confronted because the CRT doesn't clip, doesn't have the hard white point like a digital, and everything to 254 is preserved and displayed on the CRT.

So when confronted with a different white-point behavior on a digital display, you have to make a tradeoff between preserving small amounts of peak white details, versus higher contrast ratio (which is often a limitation on digital displays). How you reach this compromise depends on how important peak white detail preservation is to you (for many it is minimal), versus slightly increased CR performance.

But it is important to understand that when you have a digital video source, usually it is not as if 235 is a hard peak white point, there will be values above that, even if there aren't very many. Is this a big deal? I guess it depends on your perspective. But stating that one should simply align their digital display's peak white point to 235 and hard clip or being to colorshift detail above that (even if rare) is oversimplified and somewhat misleading. However, that may be a reasonable setting one might arrive at, I just hope they arrive at that setting understanding the compromise they necessarily are making on their digital display, just as someone aligning to 254 should understand that particular compromise. Or anything in between.

And as I've said before in many previous threads, I don't advocate one particular choice for digital users since I use a professional CRT, and I don't encounter this compromise in my own viewing. When I calibrate digital displays, I generally leave a few clicks above 235. But since I don't live with these settings on my own system, I don't offer this as a prescriptive suggestion, since that would vary on the display I was using. But since I'm viewing on a CRT, and nothing clips, I don't really face this problem.

cvearl

11-04-08, 02:13 PM

I would focus on getting blue closest, and if there remains color decoder errors that you cannot easily correct, such as red oversaturation, then lower the saturation control subjectively to yield pleasing skin tones.

Thanks Mr. Wiggles! (My GOD! I never though I would say that sentence in my lifetime). It sounds sooo wrong! :eek:

So that's good advice. I just double checked and if I leave TINT at 0 with my color at 44 on this set, the blue channel looks perfect and the blue tint is not all that far off really. Only ever so slightly according to my eye. The Green and Red filters look almost perfect when viewed (Especially the primaries) and I don't seem to have problems in skin tones. So it does look like that's where I should leave it.

Thanks for the feedback.

I can go back and fourth and try to nail all 3 screens but by the sounds of it, getting this perfect requires a professional calibrator and access to the service menu. ;)

C.

cvearl

11-04-08, 02:33 PM

Since I am on a roll with getting aswers from gurus today I have another one...

If I want to calibrate the HIGH DEF cable box to my TV (as it is not going to be the same as my BD player), but I want to use the Getgray disk...

How on earth do you push the disk content through the High Def box? Would it have to be HDMI switching capable and have the BD player hooked up to it and played through it?

I ask because I pretty much think I have my BD player and TV combo nailed calibration wise. There is nothing between them. But I have learned that those settings on my TV are not necesarily going to be right for what's comming out of my HD BOX.

C.

cvearl

11-04-08, 03:46 PM

The question of where to set a digital display's clip point is unique, again because in the studio on a CRT this problem is not confronted....

when confronted with a different white-point behavior on a digital display, you have to make a tradeoff between preserving small amounts of peak white details, versus higher contrast ratio .... How you reach this compromise depends on how important peak white detail preservation is to you (for many it is minimal), versus slightly increased CR performance.... But it is important to understand that when you have a digital video source, usually it is not as if 235 is a hard peak white point, there will be values above that, even if there aren't very many. Is this a big deal? I guess it depends on your perspective.... I just hope they arrive at that setting understanding the compromise they necessarily are making on their digital display, just as someone aligning to 254 should understand that particular compromise. Or anything in between....

I don't advocate one particular choice for digital users since I use a professional CRT, and I don't encounter this compromise in my own viewing. When I calibrate digital displays, I generally leave a few clicks above 235.

If ever there was a Contrast for Dummies, this is it. Thank you. I especially love how you likend this to the loudness wars in Audio. :)

I am from the analogue world as well. I dearly miss my Sony 22" Professional CRT on my computer. Best screen I ever owned. Period. I have not seen an LCD come close. And I never will. :( This is all starting to remind me of that. Almost like Audio compression versus lossless. What the heck will we need in the digital arena to have lossless video! 20 HDMI cables wrapped together? Hahahaha.

But seriously...

First off, please don't think I am challenging your expertise. There is no doubt in my mind that you have forgotten more about the subject of calibration than I personally will ever know or comprehend. I also appreciate having what access to you and Scott I can get my hands on. It's already been above and beyond what I would have expected. :) That said...

While I agree with everything you are saying here, I have this theoretical question for you based on your comments. It is in the area regarding the compromises in the digital arena one way or the other. You state that the compromise made when lowering Contrast on a digital display to expose above white detail is that the user gives up some contrast ratio to allow some of that "little extra peak white detail" to show. Right? I see your logic! I also think there is one more compromise being made that you did not point out. But I might be wrong and I love being proven wrong because it means I arrive at the truth.

The second compromise to lowering contrast appears to be the negative effect on how a 235 reference white is handled by your display as a result and the accuracy of the white you see versus the white on the disk.

EXAMPLE...

At the time of mastering, a DVD is encoded with a reference white pixel in a given scene to be sent up the chain to the display as a level 235 reference white on the digital video levels scale (16-235). At the end of the day, it should be a reference white pixel when it arrives and when it is displayed. This is how my brain sees it. This is a truth. Right?

Now if the user has lowered the overall contrast of their digital display to expose whites above 235 on the scale, they have not actually created brighter pixels in the above white zone. They actually have in fact lowered the intensity of the original level 235 in order to see or "notice" white levels above it. It (235 white) had to become dimmer so that the 5% above white (243?) would show next to it or be "apparent" to your eye. The truth then is that it no longer is a 235 White pixel on the screen. you've knocked it down. It's now more like 227 or whatever. The only pixel on the screen now that is the intensity of a 235 reference white is the 5% above white signaled pixel. Mathematically, there is no other way to look at this as far as I can see knowing digital the way I do.

So is this not an error? A de-calibation? The Reference White Point on your display is now in an uncalibrated state? What I see and what the telecine operator expected me to see are now 2 different things (albeit perhaps slight). Is that not exactly what will happen?

That to me logically, is the other compromise to lowering contrast to expose above white. You unintentionally knock white out of calibration versus the content on the disk.

C.

GetGray

11-04-08, 05:37 PM

Thanks as always for chiming in Chris.

tbrunet

11-05-08, 09:11 AM

..So is this not an error? .Yes specifically a gamut error or improper filtering.

I emailed my question to John Luff who is SMPTE Conference VP about the subject of mastering content that involves excursion into the digital “headroom”. His response to me was:

“Video needs to be properly scaled (16-235). High freq filter ring (aka overshoot) should also be properly filtered. Content thats not properly scaled or filtered can have results that appear desirable on a given production monitor but can have unpredictable effects on different displays and may cause unwanted artifacts when applying (DVE) digital video effects.”

ChrisWiggles

11-06-08, 05:54 PM

While I agree with everything you are saying here, I have this theoretical question for you based on your comments. It is in the area regarding the compromises in the digital arena one way or the other. You state that the compromise made when lowering Contrast on a digital display to expose above white detail is that the user gives up some contrast ratio to allow some of that "little extra peak white detail" to show. Right? I see your logic! I also think there is one more compromise being made that you did not point out. But I might be wrong and I love being proven wrong because it means I arrive at the truth.

You're right, but the way you go on to describe it is what I mean by "lowered contrast ratio." You can think of it as the CR between reference white 235 and black, which is decreased if you preserve everything through to 254. Reference white is dimmer than it would be if you clipped everything off above that and set the display's peak white to be reference white.

The second compromise to lowering contrast appears to be the negative effect on how a 235 reference white is handled by your display as a result and the accuracy of the white you see versus the white on the disk.

EXAMPLE...

At the time of mastering, a DVD is encoded with a reference white pixel in a given scene to be sent up the chain to the display as a level 235 reference white on the digital video levels scale (16-235). At the end of the day, it should be a reference white pixel when it arrives and when it is displayed. This is how my brain sees it. This is a truth. Right?

Well, yes, but it's more elusive a truth than you perhaps realize.

Now if the user has lowered the overall contrast of their digital display to expose whites above 235 on the scale, they have not actually created brighter pixels in the above white zone. They actually have in fact lowered the intensity of the original level 235 in order to see or "notice" white levels above it.

Correct.

It (235 white) had to become dimmer so that the 5% above white (243?) would show next to it or be "apparent" to your eye. The truth then is that it no longer is a 235 White pixel on the screen. you've knocked it down. It's now more like 227 or whatever. The only pixel on the screen now that is the intensity of a 235 reference white is the 5% above white signaled pixel. Mathematically, there is no other way to look at this as far as I can see knowing digital the way I do.

You are assuming that 235 should be peak white on a digital display, which is kind of what I'm countering. Maximum white on a digital display, in order to preserve everything as it was seen in the mastering bay (not on a digital, but on a CRT), should be aligned to 254. This is what Joe Kane and others advocate. I don't take a hard position on this on digitals, as I said before. It's an open compromise either way.

So is this not an error? A de-calibation? The Reference White Point on your display is now in an uncalibrated state? What I see and what the telecine operator expected me to see are now 2 different things (albeit perhaps slight). Is that not exactly what will happen?

No, you're actually closer to what the mastering engineer saw. Again, keep in mind that they're most likely viewing (at least still these days, but this is changing slowly) on a CRT, which doesn't clip at all. They see everything through to 254. They also see content with a higher on/off CR range than on most digitals. By choosing to use a digital display with limited on/off CR, you are immediately not seeing what they saw. So you have a choice, clip off some small portion (of debatable significance) of peak white data to squeeze a bit more CR out of the digital, or preserve all the video just in case. Or something in between. Again, the telecine operator sees everything through to 254 no problem.

That to me logically, is the other compromise to lowering contrast to expose above white. You unintentionally knock white out of calibration versus the content on the disk.

C.

Again, my point is that preserving everything to 254 is what is seen on a CRT. If there is video content up there, it is seen and not clipped off. Doing the same thing on a digital would be ideal *if* a digital had the same enormous on/off CR capability of a CRT. But it does not. This means poor black level, or dim whites in comparison to a CRT's on/off CR (usually, but this is getting better fast). So do you improve this weakness a little bit and clip off peak whites (of debatable significance), or do you maintain everything in the content as seen in the mastering bay? Your choice. Me, I avoid the question entirely by using a CRT ;).

cvearl

11-07-08, 09:50 AM

Again, my point is that preserving everything to 254 is what is seen on a CRT. If there is video content up there, it is seen and not clipped off. Doing the same thing on a digital would be ideal *if* a digital had the same enormous on/off CR capability of a CRT. But it does not. This means poor black level, or dim whites in comparison to a CRT's on/off CR (usually, but this is getting better fast). So do you improve this weakness a little bit and clip off peak whites (of debatable significance), or do you maintain everything in the content as seen in the mastering bay? Your choice. Me, I avoid the question entirely by using a CRT ;).

And this is the best description of the CRT versus Digital issue I have read so far. At least in so far as Contrast goes.

If there had been a 42" 16:9 CRT under $1500 that was from a reputable company still available to consumers, I would have bought one. But it would have needed 6 people to carry. :(

So I guess you are one of the lucky few that has a pro CRT and by the time it dies, the digital stuff will have been sorted out and improved enough that it will have little impact on your viewing pleasure. :)

As for the Contrast discussion, thank you for helping to clear that up. It comes down to the philosphy of it all. Also based on the quote from the other guy... tbrunet

""I emailed my question to John Luff who is SMPTE Conference VP about the subject of mastering content that involves excursion into the digital “headroom”. His response to me was:

“Video needs to be properly scaled (16-235). High freq filter ring (aka overshoot) should also be properly filtered. Content thats not properly scaled or filtered can have results that appear desirable on a given production monitor but can have unpredictable effects on different displays and may cause unwanted artifacts when applying (DVE) digital video effects.” ""

I have to conclude that it is a set by set/user by user issue as well and after you throw in the contrast philosophies you meantion, it all comes down to... Do whatever looks best on your specific equipment while trying to stay somewhere within the range of showing a little extra white and just raising contrast to the precide point of a clip over 235 and stop.

Thanks everyone!

C.

shabre

11-07-08, 10:26 AM

has anyone tried the ISF monstercable calibration disc compared with DVE blu ray calibration disc?

If so, what disc do you prefer?

I have the DVE and was pondering on ordering the ISF monstercable disc just for comaprison reasons

WTS

11-07-08, 05:30 PM

Well if its anything like their overhyped cables why bother.

GetGray

11-07-08, 05:33 PM

Hey guys. This is a really big thread. Please stay on topic or at least related to the GetGray DVD, please. So that people have to do minimal wading when reading about this DVD. Other DVD's aren't on topic. There are threads that discuss and compare various DVD's including this one here in the forum. Thanks! :)

Halon451

11-10-08, 01:27 PM

Greetings, couldn't figure out where to make my first post, but this calibration disc finally brought me over to the AVS forums, and finally decided to register. Thought I would say hello and introduce myself, and am looking forward to using this disc soon.

Cheers :)

RapalloAV

11-10-08, 02:11 PM

On all the new LCD projectors, do they still recommend to calibrate the blacks with the Auto Iris On or Off?:rolleyes:

CT_Wiebe

11-10-08, 06:01 PM

On all the new LCD projectors, do they still recommend to calibrate the blacks with the Auto Iris On or Off?:rolleyes:Normally the Auto Iris should be off. However, I found that with the APL (roughly 0% stimulus, average) that Scott (GetGray) used, you can leave it turned On. With a calibration disc like AVIA or DVE (which use a 50% APL), you have to turn it Off. BTW, APL = Average Picture Level.

RapalloAV

11-10-08, 06:05 PM

Normally the Auto Iris should be off. However, I found that with the APL (roughly 0% stimulus, average) that Scott (GetGray) used, you can leave it turned On. With a calibration disc like AVIA or DVE (which use a 50% APL), you have to turn it Off. BTW, APL = Average Picture Level.

Thanks Claus for the help. What are your thoughts then when others say with the Iris on it affects the gamma,color and tint?

CT_Wiebe

11-10-08, 06:50 PM

Thanks Claus for the help. What are your thoughts then when others say with the Iris on it affects the gamma,color and tint?It shouldn't have any effect on Color & Tint. If you are using a colorimeter to do the calibration (needed to properly adjust Gamma), then the Auto Iris should be turned Off, IMHO - but I'm not the expert in this area.

RapalloAV

11-10-08, 06:58 PM

It shouldn't have any effect on Color & Tint. If you are using a colorimeter to do the calibration (needed to properly adjust Gamma), then the Auto Iris should be turned Off, IMHO - but I'm not the expert in this area.

Thanks Claus....

To sum up is this correct?

Without meter.......

Using DVE or Avia one keeps the Auto Iris "Off".

Using GetGray one keeps the Auto Iris "ON"

CT_Wiebe

11-12-08, 03:25 AM

RapalloAV -- Yup. I did a quick calibration with my SD-DVD player & GetGray (and I "forgot" to turn the Auto Iris Off). It seemed to work just fine, and I get an excellent picture. I haven't gone back and double-checked, though.

With the Auto Iris on, it was difficult to set the Brightness and Contrast correctly, but I finally got it (it took a while though). If I hadn't forgotten (my old PJ didn't have that feature), then setting the Brightness and Contrast might not have been quite as difficult as it was. I was also feeling my way around the menu behavior of my new 1080p PJ -- it has a lot more options than my old one did, and the Auto Iris control is buried 3 levels deep).

I would recommend that you turn the Auto Iris Off in either case (absolutely necessary with DVE or AVIA), and do the calibration. Then turn the Auto Iris on and check the Brightness and Contrast settings with the GetGray disc. That's what I should have done, but I was in a hurry (because my other half wanted to "watch the big screen", and she gets tired of my "fooling around", even though she understands why I'm doing it).

Even I can have a bad case of brain-fade, on occasion:eek:.

JeffGrimes

11-15-08, 05:01 PM

ChrisWiggles

11-16-08, 12:57 AM

For those of us with a blue-only mode on our displays (Sammy LED DLP)...Am I correct in assuming you'd use it instead of any filters for the calibration process?

I tried this with an old SD version of Avia with little luck. I'm thinking of upgrading to the GetGray...

Thanks

that is correct. Blue-only mode is always (afaik, I have never seen or heard of any bizarre exceptions to this recommendation but...) preferred. Only use filters if you have to. This is one thing that I really appreciate about Samsungs, their engineers really seem to be on the ball when it comes to their TVs, which is very nice to see.

cvearl

11-16-08, 12:42 PM

Is this right...

When calibrating color and you cannot enable blue only on your TV, use the blue filter. Getgray,THX Opti and DVE all use this method in their instructions.

That said, is this the correct routine with Getgray (or any others as well since they all work the same)...

Once you have dialed in the color and tint with the blue filter and Getgray's color pattern screen, you have made colors about as accurate as you can without equipment or delving into the system menu. The next step then is to now, while watching movies, lower the color setting until you feel skin tones look right? Basically if the calibration resulted in skin tones that are a little over cooked?

I ask because my set, the PZ85, arrives at the same setting for color and tint with all the disks and filters. So going back to Getgray, I do the Color Tint thing with my THX glasses and bango! That pattern is perfect. I can recheck it with lee filters and the DVE ones and that pattern is bang on. So then going back to movies, colors look great except skin tones on some people look a little sun burned. Obviously a color decoder error and the PZ85 is known to push red a bit as are many other mfg's. So now you just back it (COLOR setting) down and leave tint where it was until skin looks right and call it a day and that's the best a person can do?

OOOPS! you already answered this.

First, the filters aren't perfect, and never can be really because the primaries SPD overlap at least a little bit. They are a secondary solution to the common problem that consumer displays don't usually have a blue-only mode. I would focus on getting blue closest, and if there remains color decoder errors that you cannot easily correct, such as red oversaturation, then lower the saturation control subjectively to yield pleasing skin tones.

What did... "the primaries SPD overlap at least a little bit" mean?

C.

jvincent

11-16-08, 01:36 PM

Once you have dialed in the color and tint with the blue filter and Getgray's color pattern screen, you have made colors about as accurate as you can without equipment or delving into the system menu. The next step then is to now, while watching movies, lower the color setting until you feel skin tones look right? Basically if the calibration resulted in skin tones that are a little over cooked?

The blue filter for tint is used to adjust the mix of colours. I.e. that the amount of red and green in the cyan and magenta colours are balanced with respect to blue.

For colour, it is doing the same thing but it it measuring the relative intensity of the other colours with respect to blue.

As Chris has mentioned the colour filters are not 100% accurate so if skin tones are consistently off then certainly adjust them.

cvearl

11-17-08, 10:58 AM

The blue filter for tint is used to adjust the mix of colours. I.e. that the amount of red and green in the cyan and magenta colours are balanced with respect to blue.

For colour, it is doing the same thing but it it measuring the relative intensity of the other colours with respect to blue.

As Chris has mentioned the colour filters are not 100% accurate so if skin tones are consistently off then certainly adjust them.

Which I am now understanding. So in many ways, you are first calibrating the display's color and then having to de-calibrate it to "fix" skin tones and reds if they are a little overcooked. :(

In which case you might be acurate on setting up your Brightness and Contrast but the colors can end up being a deal breaker even with the disk. The usefullness of the disk is reduced to brightness and contrast calibration as you're just going to play with color until it "looks" right. At least until you can afford something like SpyderTV or whatever.

In my case, I seem to be able to nail the primaries by simply setting color to 43 on my PZ85u. The Blue, Red and Green exacly match the background as I stare through the Lee Filters as prescribed in the Getgray manual. The secondary's look a shade off looking through the blue filter, almost bang on looking through the green and several shades off looking through the red. As soon as I lower tint, I fix blue completely. Green still looks fine but the secondaries are bad throught the red. Raise it to fix red and I kill the ones seen through the blue filter. Just kind of annoying.

Worst thing about the disk is it shows you where your TV is weak and then it pisses you off because it can't be entirely made accurate without equipment and going into the service menu. I originally thought things looked not to bad when I first got the TV. Ignorance was bliss as they say.

Either way, it's been a great learning experience.

C.

jvincent

11-17-08, 11:03 AM

cvearl

11-17-08, 11:56 AM

Using the filter you are still likely to be closer to accurate than by just eyeballing it so it's better than nothing.

A meter is still the best way to go though. I've got a DisplayLT and it was well worth the purchase price.

Does it come with it's own software? Or do you use it with Getgray.

And thanks so much for all the feedback.

C.

jvincent

11-17-08, 01:33 PM

cvearl

11-17-08, 02:22 PM

I use the Display LT with GetGray (the source material) and ColorHCFR (to take the readings with the probe).

Remember that when you are calibrating you need to fix the entire chain since settings are not always transportable between playback devices/interfaces.

does the probe allow you to forgo the "using the greyscale ramp to adjust contrast" routine? Does it help you use another pattern to adjust Contrast? I find that one is a wierd one to hit or know when you are hitting it just right. There seems to be an aweful lot of play in my controls. When eyeballing patterns I find I can sit basically anywere in a 15 point span in my contrast setting and still comply to the rules of "how the pattern is supposed to look" while I can see that it is changing the appearance of the mid point of the pattern in terms of vibrance of the greys in the middle 12 or so bars.

I would be quite interrested if the DiplayLT helped in that regard. That and choosing between Normal and Warm temp on my particular display with trying to be as close to 6500 as possible.

Does it help there or is it only for color?

C.

jvincent

11-17-08, 02:34 PM

does the probe allow you to forgo the "using the greyscale ramp to adjust contrast" routine? Does it help you use another pattern to adjust Contrast?

Setting contrast and brightness can be tricky for digital displays as previously discussed in the thread.

You really need to use several of the patterns on this disc to get it right.

I usually start with the crossed steps to get contrast and brightness in the ballpark.

Then I use the window patterns with the probe to check that I have the correct gamma curve (or as close to correct as I can get) as well as fixing the grayscale.

After that I use the crossed ramps pattern to fine tune contrast and brightness to make sure that there are no visible banding effects.

If you haven't already read them, some of the stickies in this forum are very helpful.

cvearl

11-17-08, 02:50 PM

Setting contrast and brightness can be tricky for digital displays as previously discussed in the thread.

You really need to use several of the patterns on this disc to get it right.

I usually start with the crossed steps to get contrast and brightness in the ballpark.

Then I use the window patterns with the probe to check that I have the correct gamma curve (or as close to correct as I can get) as well as fixing the grayscale.

After that I use the crossed ramps pattern to fine tune contrast and brightness to make sure that there are no visible banding effects.

If you haven't already read them, some of the stickies in this forum are very helpful.

I am at that crossroads...

Just do my best visually. Or get a tool and delve into the sea of information in those stickies. Which actually (as nerdy as this sounds) looks like it would be interresting.

Thanks for all the info.

C.

CT_Wiebe

11-17-08, 06:48 PM

cvearl

11-17-08, 07:35 PM

cvearl -- The problem with setting the colors correctly is, that to do the "right" job, you need to set the "brightness" and "contrast" (or whatever they're called in your display - gain & bias, etc.) for each of the Red, Green, & Blue primaries - this will likely be in the "Service Menu". The only way you can do that correctly, is to use a colorimeter like the Display LT as jvincent said.

As purchased, the Display LT (or equivalent) does come with software. However, for the economical version, this SW is not all that useful. The ColorHCFR is free and can be used. Another good program is CalMAN, but that is not free. The GetGray disc can be used as the source material for SD-DVD calibration (it uses the SD Rec. 601 color coding).

PS -- The info in the "stickies" is worth reading, even if you don't get measurement instrumentation. They give you some excellent reference information. Here is a very good discussion from the Calibration FAQ sticky: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4969789#post4969789 - by ChrisWiggles (see also his posts, in this thread, in response to some of your questions).

If you really want to get "nerdy" you should Google "Poynton". Dr. Poynton (a mathematician) has an extensive online library of PDF documents on the theory of video grayscale, gamma, and color-space - those articles can be hard to read, though.

Do the filters recommended by the Getgray manual (which I have - Lee and THX) have anything to do with wether you are HD or SD source calibrating? Or are they interchangeable. I have the DVE filters as well. And that is why I ask. FYI - Everything from my BD35 says HD Color Matrix inside of my PZ85 menu settings meaning that it is being sent in the HD color matrix to the TV on account of being upscaled. So is that messing up my color reference to my eye when looking through the Tokyo Blue #071 using the Getgray since it was an SD disk? Am I making sense?

Only time my TV says SD Color Matrix recieved is regular cable from Coax or when I feed my Sony DVD player via RCA Video Out (Composite).

Yup. That's a great article by the way. :)

I can see how explaining this stuff to us newbs can be frustrating to the likes of Wiggles and Calibrators. I also see where it can ber VERY hard to calibrate to a standard even IF you are a calibrator, when it is so easy to have things set wrong in the first place. Is your source 601. Is it twisted to 701 when upscalled. If not, you cannot expect accurate colors in the first place. You are wasting your time. If it is and you are possibly using filters that works best with 601? Then what. Oh but should you clip WTW? No or maybe. Depends on your philosphy. There's a good standard. Go with your preference here. Some disks contain above white and some don't? Who knows. Depends on if it was mastered right in the first place.

Testing with a BD35 player over HDMI to a PZ800 (THX calibrated at the factory but nearly identical to the PZ85 in terms of build) using the calibration disk and the default THX mode does not clip white over 235 and the 235 point presents somewhat grey compared to the bar above it. They are not clipping. But then the default Cinema mode on PZ85 clips everything above 235 making 235 pretty much the whitest white on the screen with WTW the same intensity. On both sets the brightness reacts the same. But there are two schools of thought here as well. Start low and raise brightness until the 1 or 2% above black is just barely detectable or start high and lower brightness until the 1% or 2% above black just dissapears and no more digital noise is in the black reference background. To comply with one or the other means setting anywhere from 52(PZ800's default) to 58(PZ85's default). Then you think. OK I will try my handy dandy filters on a THX calibrated set (PZ800 default THX mode) and they don't look right as viewed through filters. The blue is undersaturated in the default color modes of both TV's but in particular the THX calibrated one. Check the Red and Green and it's the same scenario there. So what good were those.

At the end of the day, some aspects of the calibration without probes and sensors, becomes a kind of "good enough" and "whatever looks good to you" kind of scenario (not exactly synonomous with the word calibrate) even with the disks and if you need accurate you need a pro with gear to come over. If I sound frustrated, it's because I kinda thought that now that I was getting into Digital, there would be hard fast rules for dialing this stuff in but instead there is alot of Grey area... pardon the pun.

DISCLAIMER - This is not Getgrays fault or any other consumer level calibration product. Just so many variances in philosphies in the Digital Domain, it's enough to tick a guy off. I guess one day someone will put their foot down and there will be a standard after all.

C.

ChrisWiggles

11-19-08, 12:14 PM

What did... "the primaries SPD overlap at least a little bit" mean?

C.

The frequencies in the primaries usually will overlap, this is a theoretical visual ideal, real display primaries will appear pretty different than these curves, but just as a visual aid you can see how they would overlap:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:CIE1931_RGBCMF.svg

Therefore, when you try to filter out all the frequencies except "blue" how do you accomplish that when some of those same frequencies are also being produced by the other primaries? And given the crude nature of filters as well, you can see how they are useful, but are inferior to being able to physically turn off or block the other two display primaries so you can get the pure single primary without 'pollution' from the others.

cvearl

11-22-08, 11:06 AM

my point is that preserving everything to 254 is what is seen on a CRT. If there is video content up there, it is seen and not clipped off. Doing the same thing on a digital would be ideal *if* a digital had the same enormous on/off CR capability of a CRT. But it does not. This means poor black level, or dim whites in comparison to a CRT's on/off CR (usually, but this is getting better fast). So do you improve this weakness a little bit and clip off peak whites (of debatable significance), or do you maintain everything in the content as seen in the mastering bay? Your choice. Me, I avoid the question entirely by using a CRT ;).

Chris. When you finally get a Plasma ;) , can you please come back after a month or so of viewing material and give us an updated opinion? Someone with your level of understanding in this field would have a very valuable opinion having used the tech in question for extended periods.

In the mean time, I am going with showing some above white in the greyscale pattern. At least until such time that I get a light meter and play with having my contrast set such that I output 35fl +/- ~2 on a full white window pattern (depending on viewing distance) is achieved. All the while attempting to get as close to highest level of white in the 235 bar without breaking that output level or some such concept. :)

As I meantioned a few posts ago in this thread that the default mode of a Panasonic version of a THX calibration in the PZ800 is not clipping off the above white detail at the top of the ramps. Interresting to be sure.

I now understand that a calibration LAW or absolute "standard" with something like Contrast and DIY calibration kits cannot be established until a final law is first implemented (and followed) in the mastering bay for mastering of final digital from analogue source long before we get it on our disks. Only then can we have a "standard" for final output on a digital display. As it stands, you might be decalibrating one disk (albeit slight) in one mode and not another regardless of which way you go right now.

So the only rules that can apply right now are the ones concearning having no colorshift in grey, no eyestrain in dark room viewing (staying between 30fl and 40fl) and so on while no clipping is present in the upper whites of the patterns. The rest is in the hands of the mastering bay and you get what you get.

Short of a pro cal that is.

C.

CT_Wiebe

11-22-08, 07:19 PM

cvearl -- Not to belabor this point further, but there are standards for video materials and displays. However, using visual methods (ie., color filters, etc.) cannot give you a precise, calibration no matter what the standards are.

For precise calibration, you need measurement instrumentation and the necessary software, and hardware to do it (the expertise to use them is also required). This is what professional calibrators do.

As ChrisWiggles has pointed out, the fact that the mastering of DVDs (SD, HD-DVD, & Blu-Ray) do not follow those standards precisely (intentionally or otherwise), can contribute to additional confusion, unless that fact is understood. As he has also pointed out, there are additional limitations in various displays, as well.

cvearl

11-22-08, 08:15 PM

cvearl -- Not to belabor this point further, but there are standards for video materials and displays. However, using visual methods (ie., color filters, etc.) cannot give you a precise, calibration no matter what the standards are..

Sorry. My Fault. I meant a standard regarding Contrast as it relates to patterns. I'll have to edit my last post. You can set Black the same with all of the products. That's cool. There is a standard that works across the board give or take a click or two in either direction. Where contrast is concearned though, it's more than confusing at least to the lay person. A moving target of sorts. Let's see...

Getgrey has you setting Contrast to clip white out over 235 in the ramps. DVE asks that you do the opposite result of that and UN-clip above white so 235 and above are delineated. Avia does not contain above white so you don't know regardless. But their instructions have you try to start at Max contrast and then lower it until the just below white shows. That does not work on this set. Even if I max my contrast setting, I can still see the "just below white". Tom Huffman arrived at 60 Contrast based on 52 Brightness while focusing on getting greyscale and gamma curve close to right with equipment and using a light meter to measure output. Some people arrive at different levels as it is an ambigious target with home calibration kits even with a light meter. CNET uses DVE and on one TV they set to clip whites off and on the next they don't. This is because they, like Tom use Light output as a guideline (targeting 40fl) once black is set. Tom specifies between 30 and 40 as ok. This is all fine. THX says... "Motion pictures are mastered in a room that's moderately dark. White levels (contrast) are adjusted to 35-foot lamberts using a light meter and a signal very much like what's provided by THX Optimizer. We don't expect you to use a light meter, but the THX Optimizer test has been designed to deliver results very close to what's achieved during mastering."

*EDIT* I have read through alot of the stickies. The AVS709, Wiggles and Toms guide to using CMS and I am glad I did. It has helped ease my mind (as trivial as all of this really is at the end of the day). I now understand that the setting of Contrast does not appear to have as easy to follow standard instructions like setting black does. There are alot of variables I am only recently comming to understand (light output, gamma curve and others that cannot be measured without equipment). But having read those articles I now understand why. Might someday be a good idea for the DVD creators to find a way to incorperate a possible test of some kind to measure FL output. But that will be very tricky. Perhaps a special filter disk with graduated steps of some kind designed to meter visually to the user staring at/through it. Like a diffusor. Would be like. Sit this far from the screen and look into it. But it would be hard to make such a device.

So all I am saying is that, once our stuff is fully digital from Camera to diplay like Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow, absolute standards in this regard can be kept on something like "how to set your contrast with this ot that pattern" as we know exactly what is comming up the chain and how to adjust to recieve it exactly as it was laid on the disk. *EDIT* - Again. I now understand that I am not entirely correct now that I have read the details in the calibration stickies. You would also have to go beyond the use of a pattern and somehow test for Illuminance but short of getting a meter I am not sure how someone could do it. Perhaps a digital camera and working back from auto white balance figures, auto Fstop and auto shutter speed and ISO arrived at by a camera to calculate Candellas and then convert to FL. But this would be inaccurate by as much as 25% I imagine.

I find this field very interresting and I respect the task that calibrators (the good ones) face when doing this stuff. Now that I know more about it. So if I seem disrespectfull, I appologise. It is not my intent.

In the end, people are still better off with a product like getgray than just eyeballing it. No doubt.

I'll unjack this thread now and step away from the keyboard.

C.

csundbom

11-22-08, 11:11 PM

angryht

11-22-08, 11:46 PM

1. Mapping input values (HDMI) or voltages (component etc) to bit-values used for video processing in the set. This is the case with most LCDs, LCOS and SXRD displays. I call this a "digital" contrast control. This control will be able to clip white, and make the WtW bar disappear.

I thought many of the SXRD's do not allow clipping WTW. Turning up the contrast to 100% does not make the WTW disappear.

csundbom

11-23-08, 01:12 AM

I thought many of the SXRD's do not allow clipping WTW. Turning up the contrast to 100% does not make the WTW disappear.
Sure. Each display is different, and sometimes it varies from firmware to firmware. In this case, keep contrast at 100% and adjust lamp power for correct light output.

Bytehoven

11-23-08, 02:49 AM

I thought many of the SXRD's do not allow clipping WTW. Turning up the contrast to 100% does not make the WTW disappear.

The new Sony SXRD HW10 will clip whites at <92> contrast. The factory contrast setting is <90>.

cvearl

11-23-08, 11:31 AM

cvearl,

Setting contrast right was a source of great confusion when I started out as a calibrator. Short answer is that the correct setting depends a lot on display technology. The contrast control can operate in two different ways:

1. Mapping input values (HDMI) or voltages (component etc) to bit-values used for video processing in the set. This is the case with most LCDs, LCOS and SXRD displays. I call this a "digital" contrast control. This control will be able to clip white, and make the WtW bar disappear.

For digital contrast controls, I use this procedure:

a. Set contrast until the WtW bars go away, then back off until they re-appear.
b. Adjust light output with the "Backlight", "Lamp power" or "Power Save" settings to get a decent light output (30-40 foot lamberts).

2. Controlling what a particular input value will generate in light output. This is the case with most CRTs and some plasmas (Panasonic comes to mind). The digital contrast range is already maximized based on standard values. This is what I call an "analog" contrast control. You will not be able to clip WtW on these sets.

For analog contrast sets, I use this procedure:

a. Check set-specific level controls ("input level", "HDMI full/limited") to make sure they are right for your source.
a. Set contrast until light output is in the 30-40 foot lamberts range.

Priorities:

1. Make sure you maximize the dynamic range of the video processing circuits in the set.
2. Reach a comfortable light output that doesn't burn your eyes out.

I love when full bore ISF guys chime in. And input from guys like CT and Wiggles too. It makes me more informed. Thank you for that. And especially csundbom for admitting that, even when you first became an ISF tech, that contrast was still somewhat an illusive topic.

In regards to your talk of HDMI and Digital Contrast above, this is one spot where I like Getgrays contrast screen better than the others. It includes a WTW signal if you use that method and it allows for you to clip or unclip as you see fit. Then you can go back and check the ramps they have that are just like the ones on DVE. But they also include a max white bar at the end as well. DVE only has a 5% over white in theirs.

Very usefull in that regard. :)

As for Panasonic Plasma's, with the Getgray Contrast screen, I can indeed clip the WTW data. This is with a BD30 or BD35 Panny Blue player. So I am fortunate there. But it is source dependant. With my Sony Upressing DVD player over HDMI, I cannot clip off the WTW on this set. Another place where a person can get more confused. If I had not had the Panny BD player I would have blamed the TV I bet. You calibrators have alot of crap to deal with in that way.

C.

SgtVideo

11-30-08, 08:44 PM

cvearl

12-01-08, 12:05 AM

Recently bought a Samsung HL61A750 but really was not quite satisfied with
the result with "User" settings. Then I stumbled across this forum and spent
a couple days reading most of the posts. After reading comments about
GetGray I ordered a copy myself.

For now all I've done is made the "Brightness/Contrasts" and "Color/Tint"
adjustments using this DVD; had a blue filter on-hand. After completing
these what a big difference. Watched the "Two Towers", outdoor scenes
were more natural and nighttime scenes were greatly improved. Local
channels had more pop and naturalness.

Decided to go ahead and order the Eye-One Display LT and will be following
the tutorial provided by Curt Palme for evaluating grey scale.

I like the layout and functionality of GetGray and look forward to any future
enhancements.

If this is what you mean...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1029594

It's a great piece! Combined with Curt's, this one should be required reading as well...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852536

Waiting on the arrival of my Eye-One with great anticipation! If only to benchmark my TV pre-service menu adjustments.

C.

JohnnyEM

12-16-08, 02:40 PM

I found GetGray to be a terrific CD. It is one of the best navigation menus I have seen, except for only one drawback: I cannot find the 75% and the 100% full fields color patterns. Almost every other calibration cd seems to have them.

The problem with my display is that there is an anomaly that causes the colors to become undesaturated when I use color window patterns. But when I use full field color patterns, the color readings are normal. It seems that other people also get more accurate results with the full fields as opposed to the color window patterns. I wish the full field patterns were included on the CD

cvearl

12-16-08, 03:47 PM

CT_Wiebe

12-16-08, 03:58 PM

JohnnyEM -- In the menus, under "Gray Patterns" there is a selection for "10% Full Field", this will give you the full screen grayscale patterns, in 10% steps.

Under the "Color Patterns" there is also a menu selection for "100% Windows", this will give you the full screen color patterns.

Both of these are discussed in the GetGray Caldisc ReadMe instructions. If you haven't done so, you can download these from www.calibrate.tv, about 3/4 of the way down the web page.

JohnnyEM

12-16-08, 04:18 PM

CT_Wiebe,

Thank you very much for you suggestion. I have GetGray v1.1 and I tried again under color Patterns, 75% windows, I cycled through all the color windows hoping that the full fields would be at the end, but no there is no full color fields.

Same thing under color patterns, 100% windows, I once again cycled through all the color windows, but no full color fields at the end, at least not in the GetGray v1.1 that I have. But thanks for the suggestion.

CT_Wiebe

12-16-08, 04:49 PM

JohnnyEM -- In the Gray patterns, the "100% Full Field" is a separate menu item, which you have to select in order to get to it. You are right about the color patterns though, those are at 100% stimulus not full field - my bad, sorry.

me75006

12-18-08, 01:10 PM

Got my Getgray last week, and it is truly a must have item. I do want to read thru the posts on this topic , and post a thumbs up here !

mifronte

12-18-08, 02:28 PM

I own both Avia II and DVE. I used to dread having to make calibration adjustments because it would take me twice as long to navigate the DVD. Especially when it has been months since I last used the discs. I recalled wondering why the maker of these discs did not just organize the disc more logically and then make the navigation simple, like in KISS (keep it simple, stupid).

Mind you, this was just making basic user menus adjustments like contrast, brightness, color, and tint. Four adjustments and the commercial DVDs make it so complicated.

Then I stumbled on GetGray and downloaded the PDF instructions. Reading the PDF file alone gave me a precise idea of what the GetGray DVD would be like. I have now moved beyond the four basic adjustments to actually adjusting my display's grayscale too.

Now the picture on my Sony XBR 4 is stunningly beautiful. Of course it is not quite perfect yet, for that more tweaking needs to be done, but I won't be dreading it like before.

Lord Vader

12-18-08, 08:23 PM

Has anyone used the GetGray DVD with a Samsung 61A750 or 67A750?

rrhomes

12-19-08, 12:26 AM

I have a question:

Does changing the brightness or contrast change the gray scale?

I have a HC3000 DLP projector, and in the HC3000 forums various people have posted various calibration numbers for their machines. The HC3000 is known to have a ton of green out of the box and reducing the green on any unit 9 out 10 times is a big plus. Anyway one long post caught my eye and I tried his number that he had done with color meters and my pictures looks spectacular. When looking at the GetGray 5% ramp it looks perfect at 0 contrast and 0 brightness change. However I can technically see the 1% brightness until I get to -2 brightness setting and I can see very faint 1% below total white until I hit +6 on the contrast, when I do this and go back to the 5% gray scale ramp it looks YELLOW, waaay off just to my eyes and all I'm changing is the brightness and contrast setting, as I click it back down to 0 and 0 it looks perfect gray and no tints at all, this seems odd to me that the -2 B and +6 C would change the color of the 5% ramp rather than just clip the brightness and contrast(I'm actually not clipping when getting to -2 and +6 its just that the ramp is CRAZY Yellow looking. When I apply the -2B and +6C during video scenes it actually looks fantastic and a tad more dynamic that the 0 and 0 that makes the gray ramp look GRAY.

So heres the question: On a digital display DLP what is the rule of law, my PS3 wont do below black, so if I can see any tint at all in the 1% below total white bar regardless of how that affects the color of the 5% gray ramp am I suppose to have my contrast set at 1 click towards anything visible in that 1% bar, and the same with black is it the rule of law that if there is 1% above black regardless of color that I should reduce it until I'm at the final click before the next click takes all of the 1% above total black away.

AT 0 and 0 anyone would say that my ramp looks normal, at -2B and +6C the gray ramp looks yellowish brownish but are the true one click away settings that I thought is rule number one. If it is then the gray scale is just so odd looking in color that Im confused but on dvd's every thing looks very good at -2 and +6 not like there is the yellow tint that I see when looking at the gray scale. Hopefully I made my self clear enough here. I know you can't rely one someone else numbers but its a starting point and his number look the most life like that I have ever seen - regardless I want to know if the 1 click away from 100% black or white is the over riding rule of all.

CT_Wiebe

12-19-08, 07:03 PM

----- SNIP -----
So heres the question: On a digital display DLP what is the rule of law, my PS3 wont do below black, so if I can see any tint at all in the 1% below total white bar regardless of how that affects the color of the 5% gray ramp am I suppose to have my contrast set at 1 click towards anything visible in that 1% bar, and the same with black is it the rule of law that if there is 1% above black regardless of color that I should reduce it until I'm at the final click before the next click takes all of the 1% above total black away.
----- SNIP -----I don't have a PS3, but it sounds like you might not have your PS3 set up correctly. I was under the impression that if you set the PS3 to "RGB" (or whatever the equivalent is), then it will show BTB. In any case, you should set your Black Level so that you can just see the +1% black bar (otherwise you will slightly crush the black level details).----- SNIP -----AT 0 and 0 anyone would say that my ramp looks normal, at -2B and +6C the gray ramp looks yellowish brownish but are the true one click away settings that I thought is rule number one. If it is then the gray scale is just so odd looking in color that Im confused but on dvd's every thing looks very good at -2 and +6 not like there is the yellow tint that I see when looking at the gray scale. Hopefully I made my self clear enough here. I know you can't rely one someone else numbers but its a starting point and his number look the most life like that I have ever seen - regardless I want to know if the 1 click away from 100% black or white is the over riding rule of all.The White Level should be set so that you should, barely, see the first, +2%, white bar (many BD discs do have some WTW detail in them, AFIK). However, you should have no color tint in the grayscale ramps. Having color tint in the grayscale, means that the color settings are off (Gain & Bias or whatever the HC3000 calls it) or the gamma is off. You will not be able to set these by eye, you need instrumentation - a colorimeter like the Eye-One Display 2/LT or i1Pro.

You might want to check Art's review of the HC3000 on what he did for calibrating his test unit: http://www.projectorreviews.com/mitsubishi/hc3000u/performance.php#calibration.

For Blu-Ray disc calibration, you should also check out the AVS HD709 thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496.

rrhomes

12-19-08, 07:21 PM

Well I think I'll just leave it at 0 and 0 even though I could squeeze a few clicks more out of it, at 0 and 0 the gray scale looks black to gray to white, at -2 +6 is severely tinted to yellow, it's weird it looks good on a dvd but there is yellow tint for sure. So I'll just leave it a 0 and 0. Thanks for the reply.

rrhomes

12-19-08, 07:28 PM

CT:The White Level should be set so that you should, barely, see the first, +2%

I thought that I should not clip the 1% bar?

The PS 3 doesn't do BTB or WTW on any of my set ups, like my Oppo HD981 did, it is how ever the sharpest, lowest noise I have ever seen and replaced my Oppo very easily for over all picture.

CT_Wiebe

12-20-08, 01:39 PM

rrhomes -- You should, definitely, not clip the -1% bar. If you can see the +2% bar (to the right of center), then you will be able to see some WTW. The center bar is 100% stimulus, and you should be able to see the difference between it and the -1% bar (to the left of center).

bill94

12-30-08, 12:16 PM

HappyFunBoater

12-30-08, 12:33 PM

Well for some reason I thought GetGray's calibration DVD would be for newbie’s. I was WRONG!! I don't even know how to use this DVD, I guess I wasted $25. Are all calibration DVD's like this? Are there calibration DVD's for dummies?

Even though you consider yourself a newbie, just get a blue filter and you should be able to do a decent calibration with GetGray. The DVE and AVIA CDs come with the filter and perhaps better instructions, but they're still basically the same as GetGray. (GetGray has a lot of features that DVE and AVIA don't have, and is more useful with colorimeters, but I expect that these features are not of any value to you.) The Moster calibration DVD is even simpler and doesn't require a filter. It just requires that you trust your eyes and can tweak the TV based on what you see.

jvincent

12-30-08, 01:12 PM

Well for some reason I thought GetGray's calibration DVD would be for newbie’s. I was WRONG!! I don't even know how to use this DVD, I guess I wasted $25. Are all calibration DVD's like this? Are there calibration DVD's for dummies?

Have you read the manual that is on the download site?

What about some of the calibration stickies that are posted in this forum?

Once you read those you will have all the information you need to get started.

wmcclain

12-30-08, 02:00 PM

Well for some reason I thought GetGray's calibration DVD would be for newbie’s. I was WRONG!! I don't even know how to use this DVD, I guess I wasted $25. Are all calibration DVD's like this? Are there calibration DVD's for dummies?

I recommend practicing with THX Optimizer, which is included for free on many commercial discs. After you've used it for a while, GetGray will make more sense to you.

-Bill

bill94

12-30-08, 02:07 PM

wmcclain

12-30-08, 02:13 PM

Thanks for all the input guys. Yes I did read the manual, it was all greek to me.:eek: I could not find any "calibration stickies" Also, I have know idea what a blue filter is or even how to use one. :confused:

"Stickies" are the permanent articles at the top of this forum.

Blue filters are described in appendix A of the manual you read. THX glasses are very convenient.

If your display has a blue calibration mode, you don't need a filter.

-Bill

ifeliciano

12-30-08, 02:19 PM

Thanks for all the input guys. Yes I did read the manual, it was all greek to me.:eek: I could not find any "calibration stickies" Also, I have know idea what a blue filter is or even how to use one. :confused:

Get Joe Kane's DVE (Digital Video Essentials). It will come with all filters and explanations so long they'll put you to sleep. :)

cvearl

12-30-08, 04:51 PM

Thanks for all the input guys. Yes I did read the manual, it was all greek to me.:eek: I could not find any "calibration stickies" Also, I have know idea what a blue filter is or even how to use one. :confused:

Dood... 95% of the Getgray disk is not for use without a meter. There are perhaps 5 screens for people that don't own a meter. The rest requires a probe like the i1 Display LT.

If you DONT have a color filter (blue) go to a camera shop and ask for the Blue as explained in the manual.

Look. Download the manual. Only read...

Page 5 - A brief description of Video Levels for Brightness and Contrast.

Page 6 - Middle of the page is How to set Brightness.

Page 7 - How to set Contrast.

PAge 9 - How to read the 5% Ramp Pattern after you think you have Brightness and Contrast set right. Really not much you can do there but try to see if you see color shift or clipping in the steps between Black 16 and White 235. Although there is little you can do about color shifting (greens are bad to see in the pattern)... It should look as grey as possible throughout. Not uncommon to see a little blueishness to the grey (slightly cooler than D65). But only slight. This pattern relates to your greyscale to some degree which cannot be fixed without experience, Access to the Service Menu, understanding the service menu, an actual coloromiter with software and so on. If you DO see obvious color shift (red yellow or Green tints), and I do mean obvious... and you don't have the tools I meantioned, you might eliviate it a bit by trying different contrast settings. Often lowering it can help.

Page 10 - Gradient Ramp version of what I describe above. Just for visual evaluation only.

So far. All you have done is play with your contrast and Brightness. Which are HUGE contributors to a proper picture.

You now have to SKIP TO PAGE 15!!! Everything in between is for use with a coloromiter and software which most people do not own. But included anyway.

Page 15 - Color and Tint calibration but you need a BLUE FILTER to stare through. Refer to page called Apendix A after page 21 for where to get these things. From the manual...

Blue filters & filter sets: Blue filters are available from a variety of sources.

Listed below are several options as of the writing of this document:
1. THX® glasses. Highly recommended. THX® offers a pair of blue "glasses" for use with
their consumer DVDs. These glasses are produced in cardboard glasses form like those provided
with 3-D movies. These work very well since you can wear them, completely freeing your
hands. These glasses are available by ordering directly from from the THX® website (Contact
THX® or see the DVD->THX Optimizer® section at www.thx.com). "Free" plus shipping and
handling charges.2.

Photographic quality Deep Blue Tricolor 47B filters:
a. 3x3", #LEB47B3 from www.adorama.com
b. 3x3", #LE47B33 from www.bhphotovideo.com ~$15.00
3. Other calibration discs may include a Blue Filter. Those filters are of course suitable for use
with any calibration disc, including this one. Filters or replacement filters may be available for
users of Videoessential's Digital Video Essentials® products or Ovation Multimedia's Avia®
Products for a small mailing charge. Check their websites for details.
4. Lee Filters. These are films using in the theatrical lighting industry and are usually available
at a local stage or theater supply shop. The proper Lee Filter colors are::
Tokyo Blue = #071
Primary Red = #106
Primary Green = #139
The Lee Filter Tokyo Blue, #071, filter is identical to the blue filters used in the THX® g

Page 19 - Pattern for checking sharpness setting.

That's all you can do really without equipment. Only problem with the manual is that the pages I list above are good reading for the BASIC settings without special equipment but are scattered in the manual. They should be in a little Basics area. The rest then could be in an Advanced only area which requires hardware.

Hope this helps.

Check out AVS709 as well. It is free and it's manual is complimentary to that of Getgrays as well. They go well together. :)

C.

blemoine02

01-05-09, 01:11 PM

I have a samsung 72" DLP would this disk work good for me to calibrate my tv ok? This is a Brand new 08-09 model.

CT_Wiebe

01-06-09, 03:16 AM

I have a samsung 72" DLP would this disk work good for me to calibrate my tv ok? This is a Brand new 08-09 model.Yes and No. It entirely depends on what signal sources you use with your new display. Since it's a new set, I'm assuming that you are using it for HD (high definition), 1080i or 1080p, material. The GetGray calibration disc is designed for SD (standard definition) sources (SD-DVD players). If you will be playing SD-DVDs on your set, then the GetGray is very good. However, if you have a BD (Blu-ray Disc) player, and plan to play mostly BD discs, then the GetGray disc is not the best to use.

The grayscale (no color) is the same for both SD and HD signals (from DVDs), and any calibration disc will work to set the Brightness (Black Level) and Contrast (White Level) controls. However, the color matrix is different for SD (Rec. 601 specification) and BD (Rec. 709 specification) sources. Therefore, the color adjustments may not be the same, depending on how the SD GetGray disc gets translated from a 720 x 480i signal (on the disc) to a 1080p picture on your HDTV set.

NOTE: A calibration DVD (any of them) cannot be used to accurately calibrate your set for TV sources (cable, satellite, or OTA = Over The Air). Each source may have different settings for best picture. Most people (like me) use the same settings for TV as well, since it is usually fairly close to correct, and no two TV stations have the same quality signal anyway.

IMHO, the best calibration discs are:
(1) For SD-DVD players, GetGray (the instructions are available on www.calibrate.tv) - I prefer it for setting the grayscale;
(2) For BD (or HD-DVD) players, you have two "preferred" choices. The commercial choice is the "Digital Video Essentials HD Basics [Blu-Ray]", which is available from Amazon, and other online sources. The second choice is the free "AVS HD 709" disc: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496. Both of these have HD-DVD versions also, if you have a HD-DVD player, and not a Blu-Ray one.

Both the GetGray and AVS HD 709 discs require that you download the files, un-zip them, and burn your own disc (the free ImgBurn software is the most trouble-free for burning either of these discs). Both use regular DVD writable discs (DVD-R or DVD+R) depending on what type of discs are compatible with your player. The "AVS HD 709" disc is only playable on a BD player (it will not work in a SD-DVD player). Also, for both of those discs, you need to get at least a blue filter (THX Optimizer Glasses (THX.com), or either the AVIA (Ovation Multimedia) or DVE color filters. Lee Filters also sells them too (Tokyo Blue = #071, Primary Red = #106, & Primary Green = #139).

As always, YMMV. While you can get fairly good results using a calibration disc and your eyeballs as the measurement instrument, using a colorimeter, or other measurement instrument, will get better results (for more money, of course).

If you are new to the concept of video calibration, I would highly recommend that you read the "Sticky Threads" at the top of this forum's main page. They will provide a lot of background into the calibration process and why you are doing calibration in the first place (no display is set correctly from the factory, and only a very few are even close). As a minimum, you should read: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1021933, and http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=585527.

tvbuyerquestions

01-07-09, 12:27 PM

wmcclain

01-07-09, 01:40 PM

I am a total noob and just got a new hdtv and would like to calibrate it. The tv is a 47" Vizio XVT. My question is regarding which calibration DVD that I should buy. My DVD player is a Pioneer that upconverts to 1080p and it's connected to the tv via HDMI cable.

Any suggestions on which DVD would be of best use to me? Currently, I am leaning towards the Digital Video Essentials HD DVD. Should I go with this or something else? Thanks in advance!

The easiest way to start is with the THX Optimizer, which is available for free on many discs. Once you have practice and experience with that, all the other discs (which have more features) will make more sense.

-Bill

blemoine02

01-07-09, 02:05 PM

what is the link to the THX optimizer?

wmcclain

01-07-09, 02:11 PM

what is the link to the THX optimizer?

THX Optimizer: http://thx.com/home/dvd/optimizer/index.html

search for THX Optimizer titles: http://thx.com/home/dvd/search.html

THX filter glasses: http://www.costore.com/THX/productenlarged.asp?peid=87&pid=930793

-Bill

tvbuyerquestions

01-07-09, 03:23 PM

THX Optimizer: http://thx.com/home/dvd/optimizer/index.html

search for THX Optimizer titles: http://thx.com/home/dvd/search.html

THX filter glasses: http://www.costore.com/THX/productenlarged.asp?peid=87&pid=930793

-Bill

Just a side note, if you buy the blue filter glasses from THX-

The default shipping option is UPS ground that charges $10-12 for shipping, but they ship them via USPS for $2.50. So you aren't actually charged the high shipping cost. The order total should be about $5.

Thanks for the help BTW.

CT_Wiebe

01-07-09, 06:34 PM

tvbuyerquestions -- You don't want to get the DVE "HD-DVD" version. That is only for HD-DVD players (which are now obsolete). For a Blu-Ray player, you want the "Digital Video Essentials HD Basics [Blu-Ray]" disc. Neither version will play in a standard DVD player (and one will not play in the other type of player). You have to be very precise in your descriptions, or you could be getting the wrong version.

You didn't tell us which Pioneer player you have, and they have many different models.

If you only have a SD-DVD (standard progressive &/or upscaling) player, then your best bet (for someone new to calibration) is the AVIA II "Guide to Home Theater", or the "Monster/ISF HDTV Calibration Wizard DVD". Both are available from Amazon. The AVIA II is more expensive, but has actual calibration test patterns. The Monster disc (distributed by monster, but not made by them) uses selected video clips to use for basic adjustments.

The best SD-DVD calibration disc, however, is the GetGray calibration disc - as discussed in this thread. It is available through www.calibrate.tv, and the instructions are on that site, about 3/4 of the way down the page (GetGrayCalDiscReadme.zip). You should download and read those instructions. If you can understand how to use the disc from these instructions, then it is OK to use it, even if you haven't used a calibration disc before. It does require that you have a DVD burner in your PC (use the free IMGburn software - it's very straightforward).

shrabok

01-11-09, 01:42 PM

Is there any word on GetGray creating a HDTV - REC 709 disk? It would be great to have both.

wmcclain

01-11-09, 02:01 PM

Is there any word on GetGray creating a HDTV - REC 709 disk? It would be great to have both.

The AVS HD 709 disc is worth looking at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496

It's what I use for Blu-ray. "GetGray" contibuted some of the content.

-Bill

CT_Wiebe

01-12-09, 04:51 AM

Is there any word on GetGray creating a HDTV - REC 709 disk? It would be great to have both.Not until Scott can get access to BD authoring software, etc. He has previously stated, that that effort is too expensive for his "avocation" effort (and his "day job" takes too much of his time), at present.

BTW, the GetGray disc can still be used for calibrating the HD grayscale, since that is the exact same for both SD and HD equipment. The only difference is in the color coding matrix (Rec. 601 vs Rec. 709).

As Bill (wmcclain) said, Scott contributed to the AVS HD 709 effort, and since that BD calibration software already exists, there isn't any real incentive for him to take on the added effort and expense to provide a virtual duplicate calibration disc. Bill provided the link to the AV HD 709 thread, in the previous post (in answer to your question). It uses a lot of the similar type of test patterns as is used in the GetGray disc.

jvincent

01-12-09, 08:25 AM

cvearl

01-12-09, 09:05 AM

I will second (third ?) the recommendation for the AVS HD 709 disc.

For video calibrations I use two discs, GetGray for SD playback on my HTPC, and AVS HD for BluRay playback on my BD55.

Both are excellent discs.

Only thing to be aware of is that you will get different luminance readings between the two on CRT and Plasma when measuring a white window on account of these two disks using different size windows.

C.

jvincent

01-12-09, 09:25 AM

Only thing to be aware of is that you will get different luminance readings between the two on CRT and Plasma when measuring a white window on account of these two disks using different size windows.

C.

True, but I use them for different display devices (HTPC vs BD55) and interfaces (HDMI vs VGA) anyway so they are completely different calibrations in my setup.

Not to mention the 601 vs 709 reference difference.

shrabok

01-12-09, 11:11 AM

Thanks for the info.

acillatem

01-13-09, 01:56 AM

Hi,........I've had my Samsung HLP5063 DLP since '04 and have never done anything other than adjust things in the user menu, but have never done anthing with a calibration disc of any type. I watch tv with a Directv HD dvr, and Dvd's with an Oppo DV-980H dvd player, for whatever that is worth. I know I'm not getting the maximum out of my tv......the color is off and I'm tired of it. What do you folks suggest to a complete novice at this kind of thing? I'm not afraid to jump in with both feet with this sort of thing, but the most user friendly would obviously be the best way to start. I want to get the most I can outside of a professional calibration.Thanks in advance!

wmcclain

01-13-09, 06:48 AM

acillatem

01-13-09, 10:42 AM

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15486110&postcount=2111

-Bill

Doesn't say where to get it, and I also read some things that say it's very limited.

wmcclain

01-13-09, 10:53 AM

Doesn't say where to get it,

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15486454&postcount=2113

and I also read some things that say it's very limited.

You said user friendly and complete novice. It's free and readily available, what do have to lose by trying it?

Once you have exhausted THX Optimizer I recommend GetGray (which is the subject of the thread you are in now) for DVD and the AVS HD 709 disc for Blu-ray: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496

Neither have any tutorial material, so would not be good for the complete novice.

-Bill

acillatem

01-13-09, 07:55 PM

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15486454&postcount=2113

You said user friendly and complete novice. It's free and readily available, what do have to lose by trying it?

Once you have exhausted THX Optimizer I recommend GetGray (which is the subject of the thread you are in now) for DVD and the AVS HD 709 disc for Blu-ray: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496

Neither have any tutorial material, so would not be good for the complete novice.

-Bill

O.k.......didn't realize the first time I clicked on the link that it's on store bought dvd's. Thought it was like Avia or DVE. I'll give that a try first. Does it also help with tv programming, or does that differ with every channel, to some degree. I imagine it would.

CT_Wiebe

01-14-09, 06:26 AM

acillatem -- The "instructions" for the GetGray Caldisc is free (GetGrayCalDiscReadme.zip) and is on www.calibrate.tv, about 3/4 of the way down the web page. If you read and are able to understand that, then you are likely to be able to use it without problems. If you decide to buy the GetGray disc, you can always send me a PM, if you do run into problems using it. You should also get the THX Optimizer Glasses: http://www.costore.com/THX/productenlarged.asp?peid=87&pid=930793. They are needed to set the color Saturation & Tint controls.

You should have no problems running it on your Oppo DV-980H, if you have gotten the latest FW update for your Oppo. It is also recommended that download and install the latest version of IMGburn software - that will make it easier to burn a DVD (a DVD-R disc is the best): http://www.imgburn.com/index.php?act=download - assuming that you are using a Windows PC (XP or Vista).

acillatem

01-14-09, 10:24 AM

bodosom

01-14-09, 02:58 PM

You should have no problems running it on your Oppo DV-980H, if you have gotten the latest FW update for your Oppo
Although I haven't measured it the output from my Oppo looks "right" using SD and HD outputs. That is if I feed 480 via component I can select either matrix on the display. The correct one looks right and the wrong one looks too bright. If I feed 1080p (via HDMI) it looks right too (using the Y/C delay pattern). Does this suggest that in this case it's reasonable to calibrate color for both HD and SD inputs using GetGray?

CT_Wiebe

01-14-09, 07:02 PM

bodosom -- It's quite likely that the Oppo (you have the 980?) does the correct transfer of the Rec. 601 color matrix to Rec. 709 matrix when upscaling to 1080p (or 720p). From what you said, it seems that it does, if you see a difference.

You can certainly use the GetGray disc for calibrating the "HD mode" (and it will do a "correct" job for your Oppo player anyway, in either mode, since it's designed to be used for SD-DVDs) - you will have 2 separate settings, 1 for the 480, SD mode, and 1 for the 1080, HD mode.

If you also have a BD player, then you should use the AVS HD 709 calibration software for it.

acillatem -- Yes, you get the FW updates from the Oppo web site.

acillatem

01-14-09, 09:34 PM

acillatem -- Yes, you get the FW updates from the Oppo web site.

O.k. thanks! So, in your opinion, after I use the THX optimizer, the GetGray disc would be user friendly enough for a novice like me? I saw a few posts back a guy not being happy with it. Things I have read suggest that it is more straightforward than Avia or DVE, but I'm new to all of this. I am a novice, but let me add that I'm also not afraid of stuff like this. Not patting myself on the back by any means, but I don't call Directv to aim my dish, and I do it without a meter,I usually fix anything with our appliances by going to a forum, asking questions, getting the part, and doing it myself, etc. etc. Plus, I like figuring stuff like this out.That may sound like a lame description, but I think you know what I'm saying.......

Voyeur

01-15-09, 01:14 AM

I HIGHLY recommend the DVE, whether it's Blu-ray or HD-DVD version. It's the best for me when it comes to brightness, color and tint (sharpness is easy, just turn it all the way down usually). Contrast is the same as anybody else's contrast test pattern. I bought the Monster Calibration disc and it has helped me with my contrast settings (it's also fairly decent for brightness).

I'm not familiar with the GetGray disc, though.

bodosom

01-15-09, 02:39 AM

O.k. thanks! So, in your opinion, after I use the THX optimizer, the GetGray disc would be user friendly enough for a novice like me? I saw a few posts back a guy not being happy with it. Things I have read suggest that it is more straightforward than Avia or DVE
After you do a bit of reading in the subject (particularly much of this thread) you should read up through page seven in the the GetGray manual. If it's clear then GetGray should work for you. If not then it's a poor choice. It's important that you do your homework first. The GetGray manual is not a tutorial, there's no glossary and it assumes that you have a good grasp of certain concepts (e.g. pc versus video levels). I would not say the disc is more straightforward. It's a collection of patterns that are designed to be easy to use with a meter and calibration software on a digital display with minimum through CMS controls. There are no patterns to support other purposes or explanatory chapters. This makes navigation simple because there are few choices and they loop until you press skip. Minimalistic is probably a better word than straightforward.

A number of folks find the Avia or DVE (or Monster or ...) discs helpful because they have a certain amount of tutorial material and I think particularly in the case of Avia, supplemental material about home theatre as a whole -- not just the video chain.

By the way, since you have a DTV HD-DVR you can record the HDNET test pattern "show" that runs every Saturday morning at 0730.

acillatem

01-15-09, 03:05 AM

By the way, since you have a DTV HD-DVR you can record the HDNET test pattern "show" that runs every Saturday morning at 0730.

Yep, got my dvr set to record it this saturday!:)

Voyeur

01-17-09, 12:36 AM

So after adjust the settings of my tv with the DVE disc, my dad wanted me to work on his. His Panasonic now looks even better. Then he told me my niece really needs her new Vizio calibrated too. Good gracious that TV has terrible color! Reds were WAY oversaturated. I tried the best I could but wow.

CT_Wiebe

01-17-09, 01:09 AM

Voyeur -- This is a thread about the GetGray Caldisc. Please do not post details on a subject material that concerns the using of other calibration discs. Your last two posts do not contribute to the subject of this thread.

Thank you.

CT_Wiebe

01-17-09, 01:16 AM

acillatem -- If you have read the GetGrayCaldiscReadme.zip instructions (www.calibrate.tv) and think you can understand how to use the disc, then by all means get it. The GetGray disc is by far the best SD calibration disc you can use, IMHO. It is also has the most accurate test patterns of any calibration disc short of multi-hundreds of dollars (which it equals).

From your posts, it sounds like you certainly have the technical capability, and should be able to use it.

Voyeur

01-17-09, 01:34 AM

wmcclain

01-17-09, 01:12 PM

Is there an alternative? I'm not paying $10.00 for UPS shipping for a pair of paper "glasses" that they could stick in an envelope and mail for a couple dollars.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15487361#post15487361

-Bill

CT_Wiebe

01-17-09, 04:55 PM

acillatem -- As Bill linked to, the USPS shipping is $2.50 for one pair, as it says on this link to the glasses order page (http://www.costore.com/THX/productenlarged.asp?peid=87&pid=930793).

Tom899

01-25-09, 08:07 AM

acillatem -- As Bill linked to, the USPS shipping is $2.50 for one pair, as it says on this link to the glasses order page (http://www.costore.com/THX/productenlarged.asp?peid=87&pid=930793).

Yes, just received mine in the US mail - (2) pair $3.98, Shipping $5.00 for a total of $8.98

Tom899

01-25-09, 08:08 AM

I ordered GetGray and like it very much, very well layed out.

GetGray

03-04-09, 08:56 PM

Derko: This is the thread to ask your SD/HD question re calibrating with GetGray There are several calibrators and other very helpful folks like Claus here who will help. Best, Scott

Silver Serpent

03-26-09, 08:22 AM

Hi,

When using GetGray on a PS3 to set colour/tint levels using the THX Glasses, will the results apply to SD playback on the PS3 only and not Blu-Ray, or will the same colour results be achieved for both playback formats?

Would it be better to set colour/tint levels for Blu-Ray playback using the AVCHD disc?

Thanks.

bodosom

03-26-09, 02:08 PM

... Would it be better to set colour/tint levels for Blu-Ray playback using the AVCHD disc?

Is there a difference if you do it both ways?

Silver Serpent

03-26-09, 04:23 PM

Is there a difference if you do it both ways?

I tried both ways and results are the same, therefore that answers my question :)

Actually, I get exactly the same results using getgray-thx glasses combo, DVE Disc-supplied filter combo and the AVS 709 disc - thx glasses combo.

I found the AVS 709 blinking colour pattern the easiest method to set colour/tint.

Regarding contrast, the 'correct' setting for my Pioneer KRP-500A going by the test patterns was 40. but that's far too bright for my viewing environment. The highest I could go is 32, but I like 23 aswell which was measured by an AVForums member to be 24fL (80 cd/m2). Gives a very natural, easy on the eyes image.

CT_Wiebe

03-29-09, 03:17 PM

Silver Serpent

04-01-09, 12:21 PM

Silver Serpent -- I agree that you should be running the lower Contrast value setting. I'm not sure what you mean by the "correct" Contrast (White Level) setting. The most critical setting is the Brightness (Black Level) adjustment (which should be done first). Because of the way various manufacturers design their electronics, the Contrast control is much harder to judge the "right" setting. In your case, the dimmer setting (23) is the best (based on your description), as long as you are not clipping the white levels.

Hi, what I meant by 'correct' contrast is 'calibrated contrast', i.e. where the set is calibrated to achieve maximum white luminance whilst still being able to differentiate between shades of white. In other words, setting it to the maximum where white clipping won't occur.

'Correct' probably wasn't the right word to use, as there won't be a universal setting for each display that's suitable for all environments.

40 is the maximum I can set contrast on my Pioneer KRP without clipping white, but as I said my last post it's far too bright for my viewing environment.

I use the following ambient lighting kit set to 6500k:

http://www.neon-lights.co.uk/

I can adjust the bias light for use with whatever level of contrast I choose, but I'm currently running on 23, which gives a more natural looking image and will ofcourse be easier on the display aswell.

CT_Wiebe

04-02-09, 03:26 AM

bodosom

04-02-09, 10:20 AM

Hi, what I meant by 'correct' contrast is 'calibrated contrast', i.e. where the set is calibrated to achieve maximum white luminance whilst still being able to differentiate between shades of white. In other words, setting it to the maximum where white clipping won't occur.

Allowing for some laxity of language this "working" or process oriented definition targeted for pre-1990's era direct view CRT displays or CRT based projectors. The minimum amount of light is pretty straightforward, the maximum is trickier but the calibration folks do have recommendations. E.g. THX says ~30 fL for reasonable viewing environment.

'Correct' probably wasn't the right word to use, as there won't be a universal setting for each display that's suitable for all environments.

Indeed.

Silver Serpent

04-03-09, 05:59 AM

Silver Serpent -- The problem is that reasonable judgment has to be used in conjunction with any calibration tool (especially if you are not using measurement instrumentation). Just because you "can" set your display to a maximum contrast level (40) without clipping, or tinting, doesn't mean that that is what it "should" be set to. As I had said, the lower setting (23) is the "correct" one, in your case, because that is the setting that is the "best" for your viewing environment.

It's like audio. Just because you may have a surround sound system that is capable of delivering undistorted audio at 130dB levels, doesn't mean that is the level you "should" be playing it at.

Agreed, yes.

The most I can go is 32, but that's with the bias light increased. The image does have more depth at that setting with whites looking whiter when compared to 23 where they look duller, but ultimately, 23 makes for easier viewing and provides a more filmic image.

At a guess I would say 32 contrast is around 35fL, which usually is too bright for a dark room. Alot of calibrators recommend 30fL for a dark room, but even that can be too bright for some.

24fL (80 cd/m2 - video white) works very well for a dark room, but then it's below the 30fL SMPTE recommend as a minimum, so it can lead to a whole new debate all over again :)

A poster on AVForums said that these recommendations should be seen as a maximum, with anything below that set to taste.

I think I would agree with that.

Scott_R_K

04-05-09, 05:14 PM

I was sure this was asked earlier but my Search pulls up nothing on this .
The Color Patterns on the GG Disc are stated to be at 75% "Amplitude" . Does this equate to 75% "Saturation" and if so at what Brightness(Y)...75% or 100% ?

As you may be aware , there has been a lot of discussion on the JVC and Epson Calibration Threads about which exact Pattern is to be used and this is confused somewhat by the AVSHD disk having both types . I'm just now curious how GG has encoded these Patterns .

Again if this has already been Posted , I apologize . Just point me to the answer :)

Scott....................

thomasl

04-05-09, 06:28 PM

The Color Patterns on the GG Disc are stated to be at 75% "Amplitude" . Does this equate to 75% "Saturation" and if so at what Brightness(Y)...75% or 100% ?

Scott,

75% amplitude means 75% brightness or stimulus - all these terms are used interchangeably. But the patterns are all 100% saturation. GetGray does not have the saturation patterns (25/50/75% saturation at 100% stimulus) that the HCFR and AVSHD discs have.

hope this helps,

--tom

Scott_R_K

04-05-09, 08:07 PM

Scott,

75% amplitude means 75% brightness or stimulus - all these terms are used interchangeably. But the patterns are all 100% saturation. GetGray does not have the saturation patterns (25/50/75% saturation at 100% stimulus) that the HCFR and AVSHD discs have.

hope this helps,

--tom

Thanks Tom , that helps a lot .Good to know .

Scott.................

GetGray

04-15-09, 09:33 AM

Hi guys. This post is mainly for the "regulars" who have helped other's out so much over the years. Can you believe it's been 3 1/2 YEARS since we started this thing? Wow, time flies. The people who helped create the GetGray DVD read like a "who's who" of AVS. Some of them are listed in the DVD's credits. Many others started participating in this thread after it's beta status to help a LOT of new users along the way, Claus, jvincent, all you guys, THANKS from me and on behalf of all the people you all have helped directly or indirectly.

Well after 3 1/2 years someone apparently complained that the becasue the thread was linking to a commercial site that it was in viloation of the forum rules. It was linking to a semi-commercial site as everyone who has the DVD knows, which covered the costs to fool with the thing. But, becasue of that link, the moderator was obligated to remove the thread in response to the complaint. I understand and fair is fair. But the moderators have graciously put the thread back in place, so I can make some changes to hopefully bring it into compliance.

I have changed the thread's lead post to remove the direct links to the donation page. I have removed posts where I discussed the donation page or how to donate, etc. If whoever originally complained will let me know of any other offending post I missed, that I have edit capability on, I will gladly remove or edit it, too.

For those helping other's and participating in this thread, please, no donation talk. If you want to point a user to the docs, they are linked in the first post, as well as the patterns. If they need to find more information about the DVD, how to get it, etc. "Google's your buddy". The discussion here on AVS should just be about using the DVD, your experiences with it, any problems, praise, complaints, etc. I think that will be OK. Just no pricing, no sales discussion. Again, Googles your buddy for that, off of AVS.

Don't beat up the mods about this, please, I think they are being fair. And thanks again for 3 1/2 years of fun with this DVD.

In the FWIW news department, I did start looking into a HD version again recently. The Pro level authoring tools are still ridiculous. Sony's "Blu-Print" authoring tool is still $50,000, yes, that is 4 zero's. I am looking at another tool that will enable me to reproduce the disc on Blu-Ray with the same functionality it has now. Don't mark any calendars or hold your breath, if I do it it will take some time. And it would not be something to compete with other Blu-Ray calibration discs with more advanced patterns, it would be the same KISS motif, simple, fundamental, basic patterns only, easy to use and navigate. The people who need or want the discs with advanced testing patterns know where to get them and how to use them.

Thanks again to everyone,
Scott

Scott_R_K

04-15-09, 05:51 PM

Welcome Back !

Scott...............:D

cage22

04-16-09, 01:53 PM

I just found this particular forum and bought the GetGray. I also have DVE and Avia. After hours of working with it, I'm still having problems figuring out the best way to set the contrast (picture=pany speak) for my TH-50PX60U. I set the plasma to Standard and temperature cool seems to make the grays less colored and closer to black/white and pure shades of relatively untinted gray.

There's one pattern where instructions are, "adjust up or down until the above white bars (+2%, +5%) just disappear into the background"
I never can get them to disappear. So I then follow the alternate step, "
If the device will not display the above white bars, an alternate procedure is to lower the
contrast until the -1% bar just disappears, then raise the contrast until the -1% bar is visible."
I can't get the -1 to appear. I see the text, but not the bar above it.
Current settings are Picture (contrast) +22, Brightness (black level) +6, color -3, tint, -6, sharpness -14.
Oppo DV-981HD via HDMI into Yamaha RX-V3800 via HDMI into Panasonic TH-50PX60U with firmware upgrades applied.

Thanks in advance for any definitive help with setting the contrast.
Rob
Lynchburg, VA

GetGray

04-16-09, 02:02 PM

Rob:

It's a common question. On many displays, the white bars will not clip (disappear) like the brightness pattern will. Adjust upward to where you don't see color shifting and stop there. Or to a lumaniance (how bright it is) level that suits you.

Claus:

Do we have a good explanation of this in the thread somewhere by one of our resident calibrators? I know you'd explained it a few times better that I just did and I thought it had been explained more technically before here, but don't remember for sure. I really need to make this a FAQ and add it to the original post, or the website, or both.

Thanks

jvincent

04-16-09, 02:05 PM

Not all displays will let you make the +2%/5% bars disappear. For those display you need to adjust contrast as high as possible without getting colour shifts.

The crossed ramps/steps patterns are very good patters for checking this.

Also don't forget that brightness and contrast almost always interact so if you end up lowering contrast you will likely need to adjust brightness as well.

GetGray

04-16-09, 02:17 PM

Since this gets asked so often, I started a new thread. Maybe we can get some input there so we can discuss the whys and what-to-do's there. Here is OK too. I thought I might try to compile some old answers and build a sticky worthy, or at least reference worthy thread...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1139456

Sure to help beginners.

cage22

04-16-09, 02:21 PM

Claus, thanks for the response and the new thread. I searched this thread and printed everything relevant. I'm looking forward to the new thread.

Now I'm off to go look for some "color shifts."

cage22

04-16-09, 03:57 PM

Seems like I get color shift throughout most of the mid to upper range.

thomasl

04-17-09, 06:36 AM

There's one pattern where instructions are, "adjust up or down until the above white bars (+2%, +5%) just disappear into the background"[FONT=Verdana]
I never can get them to disappear. So I then follow the alternate step, "[FONT=Times New Roman]
If the device will not display the above white bars, an alternate procedure is to lower the
contrast until the -1% bar just disappears, then raise the contrast until the -1% bar is visible."
I can't get the -1 to appear. I see the text, but not the bar above it.
Current settings are Picture (contrast) +22, Brightness (black level) +6, color -3, tint, -6, sharpness -14.
Oppo DV-981HD via HDMI into Yamaha RX-V3800 via HDMI into Panasonic TH-50PX60U with firmware upgrades applied.

You say that you can never get the above white bars to disappear but then you also can't get the -1 bar to appear? These two things seem to be contradictory - perhaps a typo? It's not uncommon that the white bars never disappear on modern fixed panel displays even when you crank the contrast. That doesn't mean that you should crank contrast up to maximum though.

If it is the case that you can't see the bars at all (clipping), then you may want to try plugging the Oppo directly into the display and bypass the receiver - this wil verify that it is/isn't the receiver that is causing the clipping.

When setting contrast, try following these general rules:

(1) No clipping of high end/above white.
(2) No crushing/compressing of high end white (some displays - CRTs/plasmas - will have their gamma drop significantly at the high end when contrast is set too high)
(3) No coloration/tinting (i.e. good color balance) in the high end of the grayscale.
(4) No visible noise in the high end.
(5) Optimize for viewing environment/No eye fatigue (too bright/too dim for your viewing conditions).

For #2, you really need a measuring device of some kind to see your display's gamma response. For #3, I'd use a gradient white ramp and not a step pattern. The latter can more easily fool your eyes into seeing "phantom" coloration - at least it can for me. What I mean by this is, for example, if the 100% step is lacking red (red drops off significantly) but 90% does not - this may look to your eye's as if 90% is reddish. This is because your eyes are seeing the red at 90% that is lacking from 100%.

hope this helps,

--tom

jibby2

05-02-09, 04:18 AM

You say that you can never get the above white bars to disappear but then you also can't get the -1 bar to appear? These two things seem to be contradictory - perhaps a typo? It's not uncommon that the white bars never disappear on modern fixed panel displays even when you crank the contrast. That doesn't mean that you should crank contrast up to maximum though.

If it is the case that you can't see the bars at all (clipping), then you may want to try plugging the Oppo directly into the display and bypass the receiver - this wil verify that it is/isn't the receiver that is causing the clipping.

My setup works similarly. My new Sammy HL61A750 just will not make the white bars disappear; however, it will still get so white that it hurts my eyes, so I obviously turn it down at that point.

I also found that I had to adjust my DVD player's own internal brightness/contrast to make all the black and white bars appear in the first place. Weird thing tho... I actually couldn't set the thing so that all the black and white bars appeared at the same time. It's as if the DVD player had a hard limit on just how many shades of gray it was gonna show. It was either the less-than-blacks on the one screen or the more-than-whites on the other... never both... just weird. I guess that's what I get for having a cheap Philips player still... :(

ivanhk1

08-21-09, 02:04 AM

How can I get this disc.

wmcclain

08-21-09, 08:12 AM

How can I get this disc.

http://www.calibrate.tv/

-Bill

docrings

08-31-09, 09:09 AM

My setup works similarly. My new Sammy HL61A750 just will not make the white bars disappear; however, it will still get so white that it hurts my eyes, so I obviously turn it down at that point.

I also found that I had to adjust my DVD player's own internal brightness/contrast to make all the black and white bars appear in the first place. Weird thing tho... I actually couldn't set the thing so that all the black and white bars appeared at the same time. It's as if the DVD player had a hard limit on just how many shades of gray it was gonna show. It was either the less-than-blacks on the one screen or the more-than-whites on the other... never both... just weird. I guess that's what I get for having a cheap Philips player still..(

Jibby... time to get a sensor and start some simple calibrations... read this (http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457), and you can use the sensor to set the luminance level easily with a sensor, free HCFR software, the GetGray disk (or equivalent), and a laptop computer.

I calibrated my Samsung HLS and HLT to PERFECTION using these items, in just a few days of learning and tweaking. See my Tech links for more info, and the CurtPalme calibration training website.

Ciao!
Doc
:cool:

heiwi

09-20-09, 08:24 AM

rrhomes

09-20-09, 04:06 PM

I calibrated my ps3 and now my panasonic bd60 with AVD. In comparison to the calibration of my standart dvd (oppo 983h) I notice lighter blacks in blue ray. Brightness for blu ray is +7 and brightness for standart dvd is -6 on my optoma projector. Contrast behaves similar (BD -7 standart +6). The standart dvd calibration is Get Grey.
Any thoughts on this?

Your PS3 has 3 color settings: RGB(Limiited) RGB(Full) and Y PbPr or something like, that if you Oppo is set to one different then they will be drastically different as far as final calibrated numbers. If you get them set to the same they should be very close.

CT_Wiebe

09-22-09, 03:51 AM

heiwi -- What do you mean by "calibrating with AVD"?
Are you referring to the AVS HD 709 (Blu-Ray, AVCHD) calibration disc?

What you are saying is a little confusing (as rrhomes noted). The grayscale (Brightness & Contrast) are the same for both SD (Rec. 601) and HD (Rec. 709) material. Therefore, the settings should be the same (unless the players are not set to the same decoding range).

You should try the GetGray disc in all 3 of your players (the 983H, the PS3, and the BD60). If you still get a difference, then it's due to the players not being set to output the same grayscale range -- one or more of them are clipping the grayscale output range.

You should double-check your player manuals for the proper settings, as well as the applicable threads for your 3 players. I believe that the PS3 should be set to RGB(Full) for the best Blu-Ray reproduction (IIRC). I'm not sure what the setting should be for the BD60 or the 983H. I do not have any of these players, so I can't be sure of the correct settings.

How the video is sent to your Optoma PJ could also make a difference (HDMI vs. component cables). If you are using an AVR to do the player video switching, then that could have an effect, too (possible video grayscale range clipping in the AVR).

Cobra30

09-23-09, 07:35 PM

I am using dve hd basics disc with the filters on my jvc 52g787 with a harmon kardon 254, and a pioneer bdf51 player, dtv hr21-200 all connected to the receiver via hdmi, then from the receiver to the tv via hdmi. I am able to get the blues and reds perfect, but I am unable to get the green set, I have tried the color, tint, and the green in the service menu, am I doing something wrong, or is it just the capabilities of this tv?
Thanks

SierraMikeBravo

09-23-09, 07:57 PM

^^^^

The controls RGB are strictly for grayscale unless you are in a Color Management System menu...not for color. Therefore...these controls only (usually) affect the black and white image not the color image. You should not be messing with the RGB controls unless you have appropriate instrumentation. Same thing goes with adjusting a CMS. The only controls you can adjust safely with DVE using only the filters are color, tint, contrast, brightness and sharpness without the filters. I wouldn't touch anything in the service menu unless you know what are doing.

CT_Wiebe

09-24-09, 03:30 AM

Cobra30 -- I totally agree with SierraMikeBravo. Trying to adjust anything but the basics without measurement instrumentation is just asking for trouble (and a mis-adjusted display).

As S-M-B said, with just the DVE HD basics, and your eyeballs, the only thing that you can set is the Brightness (Black Level), Contrast (White Level), Saturation & Tint (with the Blue Filter), and the Sharpness controls. Trying to adjust the RGB levels without instrumentation can only be very roughly done by eye (and then only with lots of experience and knowledge of what you are doing). Without that experience and knowledge, it can be very easily totally screwed up without instrumentation and the software to run it (and with some displays, even the knowledge & experience won't help).

With many displays, one color is fixed (Green in your case, apparently). The other colors have to be adjusted relative to the fixed color. The best recommendation is to return all of the individual color controls to their initial defaults (if you wrote down what they were). If you want a better looking display, either buy the instrumentation and the necessary software (and learn how to use it correctly), or hire a professional calibrator to do it right.

heiwi

09-26-09, 11:00 PM