Edit: Shortcut to current Production Release Announcement is in post #719 of this thread. 4 1/2 months of beta work and participation from some of the best experts in the field is what comes from here to that post. It's an educational read. But I've added this link so you can skip ahead a little :)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7178409&&#post7178409

Interested in the development but no time to read? See the Q&A section of the official documentation created from members and input in this thread. Current documentation and a pattern list is available on these links:
Documentation (http://www.calibrate.tv/docs/GetGrayCalDiscReadme.zip)
Pattern List (http://www.calibrate.tv/patterns/patterns.html)


=====================================
(mostly) Original post:

Hi guys. Just discovered the new calibration forum. I'm about to release a new calibration disc. It's in beta now and a few folks have it. It's geared toward DLP's (vs CRT). It is a fundamental easy to navigate calibration disc with:

Gray scale ramp in 5 IRE increments
Deep gray ramps (digital 1 increments)
colorbars for color and hue adjustments
75% & 100% color windows
0-100 IRE windows in 5 or 10 IRE increments
Automated Gray pattern windows for CA-6X or Optic One users
BTB and WTW patterns with moving, level-labelled bars.
alignment/overscan pattern
ansi contrast pattern
ansi lumens pattern
RGB 5% steped ramps
lipsync pattern
maybe a few more...

Colors are tested and calibrated to known good reference images. After this I see where one popular calibration disc really is off a little.

Cheers, Scott

Edited: revised menu jpg, added a couple shortcuts to initial post.

NOTE: For DVD Burning how-to questions, a specific thread was created for that topic, please ask there, not in this thread if you need help along those lines. Thanks. :

Click here for DVD Burning How-to thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=613686)

Cool! Any plans for adding patterns similar to 3no's black bar and white bar patterns? You can find his DVD patterns in the HTPC forum.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5413832&&#post5413832

maxelung:

My disc was born from 2 things. First reason was my desire to stop switching between Avia and DVE pro for the few patterns I wanted to use to calibrate my DLP.

Second was becasue I was working with (Bob Sorel of the HTPC forum) to work up an authored disc that could be used efficiently with umr's new software. My current disc is laid out per Bob's specs to match the sequence needed for umr's software. The sequence is fine with me, too so that's the way it's laid out today. Each pattern stays put until you tell it to move, menu navigation is intuitave and simple, and if you happen to be using umr's software, the pattern order is uninterupted and matches the order of Jeff's softwares needs (per Bob).

Thanks for the link to 3no's. Bob had suggested 3no take a look at my disc. I have already given a copy to a few folks so they can take a look at it. Bob has a preliminary version. If you like 3no's patterns, I bet you'll love mine. Mine does not have the granularity as his on the specific pattern, but I think my white pattern is very nice to set the levels. I've oriented to doing a DLP, there is nothin gfor a CRT (no blooming type pattern).

I'm in the weeds for the next couple of days, but I'll get the beta copy loaded for for anyone to look at early next week.

I would be especially grateful for any of the big-dogs to check out my disc when I let it go. Input is welcome from anyone though.

Thanks again, Scott

Scott - Can you post what specific values you are encoding for grayscale in either RGB or YPbPr form (IRE only has meaning if you are authoring analog)? Also, can you add 100% primaries and secondaries?

Alternatively, I'd love to discuss beta testing as well!

Later,
Bill

Bill:

Yes, when I get back to it next week, I'll post the coplete exact digital RGB values I used to create each pattern (pattern, background,text, etc), and the logic if any used to determine them. As for the YPbPr values, that's handled internally in the encoder and I'm not specifically doing it. It took several weeks of work to figure out how to go from my patterns created in photoshop to an encoded DVD (YPbPr?) without screwing up the levels and/or colors. I got a lot of help in some technical encoder forums and from tech support with some of the encoders I own. Some authoring tools will also cause problems, btu I'm using a pro-level authoring tool that does not, fortunately. It was a royal PITA to get it to work.

What I'm using to determine in my patterns are "right" is to simply compare my levels agains known trusted, excellent sources using the identical measuring methods. Measure theirs, measure mine. Once I found the combination of tools that did not screw up the colors, clip the levels, incorrectly convert, etc, etc. I was able to generate the suite of patterns.

I can make another set of 100% color windows. It's what I've always used, but I had it suggested to use 75% to avoid issues with colors like red on DLP's that may have "run out". But then again, if the color "ran out" it should still be red at 100%, just at teh wrong luminance I suppose. Anyway I'll add them. It woudl be good to get a concensous on which to use.

Maybe instead of 75% windows, straight in a row, I can do 75%R, then 100% red, 75% G, 100% green and so on. THen anyone just wnatingone or the other can just skip the unwanted level. Or even compare while they are measuring...

Bill, I consider you one of the "big-dogs" :D, I'll send you a link to the current beta. Please don't share it yet. Let em know if you see any errors. There are a couple I know of, minor.

Thanks,
Scott

this sounds great, I can't wait til it is released.

Scott - No big dog here! I'm just a humble bounty hunter (If you've seen Cowboy Bebop).

For the patterns I use, I set my reference white to 236 to handle some of the issues which you have discussed (22 code values between each decile of stimulus in RGB). Getting IRE to work out evenly to %stim in a NTSC environment requires 10-bit integer math (the last two bits are "decimalized" add-ons to the 8-bit values in some uses; however, we consumers get none of that!). Despite what would be convenient, we just can't assume away set-up in the playback environment (sorry to rant unnecessarily - it's a pet peeve).

As for run-out, I specifically want to try to provoke it. When I calculate my 1931 gamut, I capture the luminance information to calculate a dE between the actual primary and the expected value. When run-out happens, the dE will spike if the colors are accurate. Ironically, my H77, as delivered from the factory, had a significant run-out in red. However, it is also significantly oversaturated. As a result, the dE for 100% red was 14. If the red did not run out, the dE would have been over 30! :eek:

Later,
Bill

Scott, your disc sounds great - I hate navigating the other ones. :)

Heh, glad you mentioned red runout Bill - my Benq 8700 has run out of red too - 800 hours isn't kind on the bulb!

Did you author your disc using 8 bit RGB patterns? I hope it doesn't impact the YCrCb conversion when encoding - quite a few folks now have HDMI upscaling DVD players that can output 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 YCrCb (I hope I am using the right terminology) and I wonder if it would be visible? Hopefully not!

Anyways, I can't wait for the beta...

I did use 24 bit RGB (8 bits, 0-255 per color) for the patterns.

This sounds great. Can't wait to see the final product. I have a 52HM84 and since this disc is geared towards DLP sets, this will be very handy.

Scott, your disc sounds great - I hate navigating the other ones. :)

Heh, glad you mentioned red runout Bill - my Benq 8700 has run out of red too - 800 hours isn't kind on the bulb!

Did you author your disc using 8 bit RGB patterns? I hope it doesn't impact the YCrCb conversion when encoding - quite a few folks now have HDMI upscaling DVD players that can output 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 YCrCb (I hope I am using the right terminology) and I wonder if it would be visible? Hopefully not!

Anyways, I can't wait for the beta...
RGB->YCrCb conversion is done using a matrix that varies depending upon the standard used (602/SMPTE-C, 709, etc.). An HTPC using VMR should be able to validate that the RGB->YCrCb->RGB conversion has been done correctly. The problem is that I am not sure what matrices are being used by TT/ZP for high def. I am pretty sure that they do not actually re-convert when outputting at above-480p resolution.

Of course, these issues apply to the CE universe as well, and let's not get into the source of error in the mastering chain. (Per Stacey Spears, IIRC, one should probably use the HD matrices exclusively... :eek: )

Later,
Bill

Just curious...how is a calibration disc geared more towards DLP than versus say a plasma? I ask because Avia/DVE are not geared for one technology...is there a reason this would not work for a plasma?

Plasmas will be fine. What you have to worry about are the patterns that are designed to test specific design compromises/weaknesses in CRT-based displays (e.g., line bending due to HVPS issues, etc.). A digital is a digital in so far as that goes. What may make a difference is whether you are using an analog or a digital signal. D/A and A/D conversions can introduce visible errors if done poorly.

One could do some low light patterns to show DLP dither, but I'm not sure that would be that desirable! (Oddly, my H77 has greater issues with a 5% Stim pattern, than the 0% stim pattern!).

Later,
Bill

Just curious...how is a calibration disc geared more towards DLP than versus say a plasma? I ask because Avia/DVE are not geared for one technology...is there a reason this would not work for a plasma?
Yes, what Bill said.

I said DLP becasue that's what I'm used to and what I'm using to test. I presume it will carry to other fixed pixel technologies, too, but don't want to go out on a limb and say so having little practical experience with same. I have no patterns for testing anything like "bloom" that CRT's can experience. I do send above reference white and have patterns I made to help fine tune DLP contrast since they don't have any full-on white issues. I have a disclaimer on the opening screen that one should know what they are doing to use the disc. I will have full disclosure of what's in the patterns (levels) so the gurus here can comment on any items that could be a concern for other technologies.

This is just a simple, bare bones test pattern disc with the fundamental patterns I need to calibrate my projector. With the exceptions of my black and white patterns with BTB and WTW moving bar patterns, everything else is very fundamental. Just in an easy to use and access DVD so those without HTPC's can use it, too.

It won't necessarily be a substiture for the commercial calibrationn DVD's. For instance, mine does not have anything regarding sound on it, unlike say Avia, or DVE. And it has no performance test patterns (i.e. resolution, moving zone plates, etc.) that most folks don't use anyway. I designed it to set the contrast and brightness properly, get a grayscale right, check and if possible adjust colors, and line up the screen. For the ambitious with good instruments, they can check their ANSI lumens and ANSI contrast with it, too.

As a result, the dE for 100% red was 14. If the red did not run out, the dE would have been over 30! :eek:

Later,
Bill

Does not make sense - as the component values to dE (dL*du*dv*) are magnitudes squared not +/- amplitudes. Your post implies that a negative dL* (runout) lessened the dE which is not possible.

OK, so now that I've publically admitted lack of understanding :eek: , maybe you two and others can discuss it:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=586386

:)?

Thanks, Scott

Does not make sense - as the component values to dE (dL*du*dv*) are magnitudes squared not +/- amplitudes. Your post implies that a negative dL* (runout) lessened the dE which is not possible.
Kevin - It was counterintuitive to me as well. I expected dE to go down when grayscale error (dL*) was eliminated. What happened in the calculations:
- dL* went to zero
- du* increaased significantly (6.5 -> 31!!)
- dv* decreased a bit

As near as I can tell, the error in red becomes more pronounced the brighter it gets (L* is a scaler for u' and v', after all). At least, that is the way the math is working (barring an error - going to have to bug hunt that one).

BTW, I am using the 1976 method here, with all of its flaws.

Later,
Bill

Ursa

Are you talking about measuring the Red Primary? Are you trying to fix the video red push, the greyscale red push, or the oversaturated Red chroma?

Are you using the measured white point or the standard white point in your calculations? If you change the reference - then these dE have nothing to do with each other since they are w.r.t. different references. So you should stick to the standard white so everything is on the same scale.

Ursa

Are you talking about measuring the Red Primary? Are you trying to fix the video red push, the greyscale red push, or the oversaturated Red chroma?

Are you using the measured white point or the standard white point in your calculations? If you change the reference - then these dE have nothing to do with each other since they are w.r.t. different references. So you should stick to the standard white so everything is on the same scale.
Kevin - Yes, I am talking about measuring the red primary. I'm not trying to do anything with it yet (at least, not until after dark), just describe how accurate it is at 100%. The surprising answer from a dE perspective is that it is less inaccurate now, than if it did not run out of light.

The reference is to the established primaries in Rec709.

Later,
Bill

Hi guys,

I just wanted to drop in to tell everyone that Scott has worked really hard putting this all together, and though the disc is quite simple to navigate and is not chock full of patterns, it is the single most useful calibration disc I have ever seen or used...period!!

This project was born out of our disgust of the horrible navigation that we must endure when using any of the other commercial discs. These are the ones that I know of and their problems (I own all of them except Avia Pro):

1. DVE consumer - horrible navigation and incomplete set of gray stimulus windows
2. Avia consumer - bad (but not horrible) navigation, but levels were affected in the encoding process, making them useless (for Scott and I).
3. S&V Home Theater TuneUp - corrected encoding problems, but gray windows are incomplete (not enough per cent stimulus)
4. DVE Pro - has all of the patterns correctly encoded, but once again is horrible to navigate - and it costs $300!!
5. Avia Pro - I didn't buy it for $400, but I understand that it has all the right patterns in a somewhat better menu setup, but do you really want to pay that much just for a complete set of patterns that should been included on the consumer versions?

Scott's disc is much easier to navigate than any of them! That's because it is not designed with fancy intros and a ton of other patterns that you will probably never need or use. Those patterns are still available - just buy one of the commercial discs! Scott's disc is all "meat and potatoes" - a very small disc with just the good stuff that you will need...:D

Scott designed all his own patterns, and though they resemble others (how many different ways are there to create a window?), some are unique and more useful than any others I've seen, especially his version of the "moving bars" brightness and contrast patterns. Scott created a nice main menu where you can access any group of patterns directly, but if you just start at chapter one, each pattern is in a moving video endless loop, so you just have to hit the "next" or "previous" button on your remote to move forward and backward through the sequence. The main patterns are all arranged in the exact order needed for UMR's i1 Pro DCS software (my idea...:D ), so taking a complete profile now only requires a couple of minutes, as you don't have to search for any patterns.

The 75% values were suggested by Jeff (UMR) and thus we went with them. (I use the term "we" loosely - Scott did ALL of the work, while I just made the suggestions and did a lot of testing.)

Scott went through hell and lots of time and work to insure that all levels remained correct, as apparently the MPEG encoding process likes to play with color levels. After a couple of weeks of failures, Scott got everything perfect, with the levels measuring perfectly using the "eye drop" method in MS Paint and by using DGIndex. We came to these conclusions by carefully comparing DVE commercial patterns to make sure that the values matched. Scott even found some very slight off values in the DVE patterns and corrected them in his. As a final check, we would like to have some of the "big dogs" (as Scott calls you) take a look at the patterns and provide one last check on his work to insure that all levels are 100% correct.

Just to be clear, once again I am not taking ANY credit for this other than for making suggestions and testing. This is ALL Scott's very hard work and he deserves a ton of credit!

So... I guess my dumb question is... How do we get a copy of this Disc?

I just bought my first HD Plasma (Panny 42px50u), and have started to research calibration discs.

This sounds like the perfect thing for a n00b. I will still be doing more research however.

Thanks! :)

This is a pretty handy mini-calibration disc, one thing that I think is pretty important to include is some resolution patterns/wedges etc, because especially if you're trying to 1:1 pixel map to a digital display you need to be able to check this for instance.

OK, I'll try to whip one up. It may be harder than it sounds though. The DVD's are authored at 720x480, and for properly formated 16:9 aspect images, I make the image 16:9 and convert it back to 720x480 and author at 16:9. Then the DVD player stretches teh 720x480 back out. And then there's teh squar pixels vs rectangular NTSC pixels, but dont' get me started on that. For PC images, it's easy. For DVD's it's problmeatic to say the least. All that stretching and unstretching is hard to get the Damn thing to send a 1:1 mapping at 16:9. I can doa 4:3 pattern, and encode the frame that way, but many DVD players won't recognize the flag and change on the fly. I'll see what I can do.

Do you have a favorite existing pattern, or know of one that meets the need?

GetGray,

What most of us (in PAL land) are looking for is a PAL disk just like this. DVE PAL is the only game in town these days.

Any chance a PAL version (720x576/50HZ) is also in the works?

BTW, are you going to publically offer an ISO of the disk or will it eventually be for sale?

Ofer:

I'm probably going to make it "donationware". Put a blurb in the back that if you are using it and happy with it, paypal me a tip. Anyone who does will be added to my "update" list and get notifications of any changes, etc. Basically free.

From my experience on the "best 5 miutes thread" there are a lot of folks who dont' have DVD burners or the skills to burn a DVD if they do, so I'll probably make a for sale (cheap) version available with a nice label, box, etc. to meet their need.

I don't think the encoding process I am using supports PAL. My Mainconcept mpeg encoder does support it, but it screws up the colors and levels. Mainconcept siad it couldn't be done (below black, above white, etc), even after I explained it *had* been done by others. Fortunately I didn't take their word for it.

But if I can get it to encode in PAL, I'll do it. Thing is, I have no PAL stuff so I don't know if I can test it or not.

Scott

I just wanted to drop in to tell everyone that Scott has worked really hard putting this all together, and though the disc is quite simple to navigate and is not chock full of patterns, it is the single most useful calibration disc I have ever seen or used...period!!<snip>

Just to be clear, once again I am not taking ANY credit for this other than for making suggestions and testing. This is ALL Scott's very hard work and he deserves a ton of credit!Wow Bob, thanks for the kind words. But I will say Bob gets more credit thn he's accepting as it was from a thread he was participationg in that became sort of the last straw for me. Someone else wanting the basics in one easy to navigate place. And Bob worked with me from his HTPC standpoint which was a big help in my early testing. I have the authoring expertise, I figured it if could be done I could do it. Thanks again, Scott.

GetGray,

What most of us (in PAL land) are looking for is a PAL disk just like this. DVE PAL is the only game in town these days.

Any chance a PAL version (720x576/50HZ) is also in the works?

BTW, are you going to publically offer an ISO of the disk or will it eventually be for sale?
Curious, I've understandably ignored any PAL information as I educated myself on NTSC video levels, so I dont' know much about PAL. For example does it have a "porch", that is, Below black? I thought pal 0 was black? and it behaved more like a PC. But again, I've done zero looking into it. It might me easy to do compared to the NTSC hoops I had to jump. My regular encoders may do it without a hitch.

GetGray,

Everything in PAL is identical (the color encoding is different, but the MPEG encoder should take care of that). There is below black in PAL as well, it uses 50HZ and there's no 3:2 (there's only 2:2 or video). It's also 720 x 576 instead of by 480.

From an encoding standpoint, those are all the differences...

You can't mix PAL and NTSC on the same disk, so it would basically have to be a PAL version and an NTSC version (just like DVE).

Ofer: I'll see what I can do next week. Can you test it?

Scott - Definitely kudos are in order on the disc. Two thumbs up! I sent you a few requests for labeling enhancements that I would find useful (e.g., digital values on all of the window patterns). Also, TT may be letting me down on the window color patterns.

If you would like, I can send you my full-field patterns that are corrected to require no more than a 50:1 instantaneous CR to display properly.

Later,
Bill

Hi Bill thanks. I sent you an e-mail, yes, might as well see your color patterns, too.

Thanks,
Scott

GetGray,

I can test it, but won't be able to check for accurate video levels.

Also, TT may be letting me down on the window color patterns.

Bill, you are not alone. I assume that you are getting some pretty strange color values when you capture a frame and then test it in MS Paint or Photoshop, right? As a reference, if you have one of the commercial test discs, capture a similar or identical frame from it and perform the same test. Your results should be very close to the results you got from Scott's disc, equally bizarre.

Scott was able to get more accurate results using DGIndex and measuring the color levels directly from the encoded video (I think) rather than capturing a frame and testing it in a paint program - results that make a LOT more sense. I have no idea what is going on with TT, but I noticed that all of the gray levels seemed to track just fine, but when I tested color windows, the results were way out in left field.

I found some of my notes on the values using TT during some of the early color window tests:

First, here's some reference 75% window JPEGs, loaded directly into MS Paint (note that the 75% values are approximately correct):

75% red window measures 180,0,0
75% green window measures 1,180,1
75% blue window measures 0,1,180
75% cyan window measures 1,181,182
75% magenta window measures 179,0,180
75% yellow window measures 181,180,1

Next are Scott's 75% windows, played back through TT using VMR9, captured, and then loaded into MS Paint:

75% red window measures 234,0,0
75% green window measures 0,210,0
75% blue window measures 9,7,248
75% cyan window measures 0,203,204
75% magenta window measures 224,0,224
75% yellow window measures 188,188,0

and last are the DVE Pro 75% full fields (title 12, chapters 15 - 20), also palyed back through TT using VMR9, captured, and loaded directly into MS Paint:

75% red window measures 238,0,0
75% green window measures 0,213,0
75% blue window measures 6,7,253
75% cyan window measures 0,205,204
75% magenta window measures 228,0,229
75% yellow window measures 191,190,0

The reference color JPEGs, though not perfect, are very close to perfect. The slight discrepancies could be simple rounding errors in the testing procedure AFAIK. Scott's captured values and DVE Pro's captured values are BOTH way off from what they should read, though they both read similarly, and since DVE Pro should be reference, Scott's should be equally accurate.

Once again, I believe that Scott got much better results using DGIndex, so I have to assume that the error is in TheaterTek....This concerns me as to using TT for any input calibration (and I even wonder what it is doing to my normal DVD playback), and as things stand now, I will only use the patterns played from a hardware DVD player or from Jeff's built in patterns (when I use a PC to generate them).

Thoughts?

I have found that TT does not capture what I'm seeing when I use VMR9 when doing a screengrab. ZP seems to capture things accurately. For some reason TT grabs a level-expanded version so what you capture is way off, but what you're seeing is not.

Well that sucks! I had understood that the screen grabs in VMR9 should be right, and it was the grabs in Overlay that would be completely wrong. Also, I noticed that all of the gray percent stimulus patterns seem to grab correctly, while just the color windows are out to lunch. Chris, do you have any idea why this happens? And what might be the difference between the way that ZP is grabbing as compared to TT?

Since I don't use ZP, could you also check the color windows for accuracy using ZP?

no I don't know why this happens. I think Vern Dias suggested setting up a print to file and doing a printscreen grab and that should work, but I haven't bothered setting that up.

I've been meaning to look at the levels on this disc, but I've been really swamped with work right now, unfortunately.

GetGray,

What most of us (in PAL land) are looking for is a PAL disk just like this. DVE PAL is the only game in town these days.


Peter Finzel does a disk that is a lot easier to use and navigate compared to DVE, and that's even considering that it's in German!

http://www.peterfinzel.de/pftd.htm

Worth every Euro IMHO. :)

There's a link here in German so you may have to go via a translator:

http://www.online-translator.com/srvurl.asp?lang=en

And there's a PDF in English to explain it all, though most is self evident.

Looking forward to your disk Getgray. :)

Gary.

Bob and Chris -
I got similar results from Scott's disc as what Bob posted. My grayscale results (both mixed and window patterns) were dead-on. The primary and secondary windows were off. To test, I used a program called ColorCop from www.datastic.com (a great little freeware color sniffer). Since I use VMR9, I used ColorCop to check the levels as they were rendered. I also compared screen grabs from Windows' "Print Screen" functionality.

With all that, the results were consistently off (no measurement deviation here). Maybe someone who isn't on Andrew's s*t list might want to send him a friendly note once Scott does another pass through himself? I doubt I would get very far with him on the color neutrality of TT. I'll give ZP a try later, but there are a few too many things on my plate right now, so it's going to take me a while to do any signficant testing.

A quick question: does anyone know where in the rendering pipeline DGIndex takes its shots? Is it at the end like the print screen does, or is it earlier?

Later,
Bill

It is my understanding that DGIndex decodes the mpeg vob file itself....

Jim

Hmm, interesting bill, I'll have to look into this, hopefully early this week. I'll see what I come up with.

Interesting comments on TT's inaccuracy when taking screengrabs of color windows - I had this issue near the beginning of the year with DVE and Avia, yet later on the issue disappeared (I had perfect results very similar to the reference Bob cited). However, the issue may have come back and I was unaware of it - I will have to test this soon.

Are you guys using FFDShow? Is this with the NVIDIA 6x00 series cards? DXVA on? YUV Mixing? I recall doing my tests months ago with NVIDIA Purevideo only (DXVA, no YUV Mixing) and had good results, I believe with (now old) NVIDIA 71.89 display drivers.

I wonder if we would get better results using one of those DirectX frame grabbing programs (HyperSnap DX or whatever it is called)?

Perhaps the best thing to do if we can't trust the screen grabs is to use a colorimeter/spectroradiometer to measure directly off the display device, comparing a screengrab from TT and from a reference picture using MS Paint.

Max - I was testing using my deskotp system, which uses an R9600. DXVA was enabled, and no processing was used (NvVPP, FFDShow). I did not use YUV mixing, though, nor renderless (Plain vanilla VMR9).

Later,
Bill

Are you using a current version of TT?

Partly why I'm curious, because I do remember max's testing of TT levels some time back, and they weren't off if I recall.

Chris - I have the latest patch release (2.1.1) that is on the TT website support/downloads page. If there is another version buried in the forums, I have not searched it out and loaded it.

One other inconvenience is that TT reverts to overlay when displaying static images.

Later,
Bill

Ok, yeah just checking, because the older version was way off on the color at the default settings, you had to adjust to get the color right, but andrew changed it now so that it should be spot-on at default.

One other inconvenience is that TT reverts to overlay when displaying static images.

According to Andrew, TT 2.1.1 reverts to the system default renderer when displaying static images. In the case of XP, this would be VMR7.

Version 2.2 will use the renderer of choice, which in my case will be VMR9.

I've been out of the loop with TT for a while, what's the deal with 2.2? What are the new goodies? :)

According to Andrew, TT 2.1.1 reverts to the system default renderer when displaying static images. In the case of XP, this would be VMR7.

Version 2.2 will use the renderer of choice, which in my case will be VMR9.
Bob - I should be able to get a print screen off of VMR7, but I can't. ColorCop also reports "black" for all areas of static images - the only difference is border area vs. rendered area on the screen (0 vs. 16, respectively).

Any info on when 2.2 will be out?

Wow, and with that, we are WAY off topic here...

Later,
Bill

Bill, I guess it all depends on what you are calling a "static image". When I asked Andrew, I had specified playback of picture files (JPEGs, GIFs, etc.), and here is his exact quote:

Interesting you should ask. The current version will use VMR7 and ignores any preferences for graphic files. However, 2.2 uses your video preference, including the renderless setting. So the short answer is yes, it uses DShow to display the file, but is forcing VMR7 to do this, until 2.2 anyway.

Hi guys. Just discovered the new forum. I'm about to release a new calibration disc. It's in beta now and a few folks have it. I hope to release it next week when I get a few minutes to polish up a couple details. It's geared toward DLP's (vs CRT). It is a fundamental easy to navigate calibration disc with:


Scott, would you consider making a version for CRTs that had the 75% plus 100% color windows?

Also, if you were willing to set up a website to offer the ISO file with a link to PayPal for a donation I think it would make it very attractive for on line buyers. Although PayPal does charge 3% to payees.

Scott, would you consider making a version for CRTs that had the 75% plus 100% color windows?

Also, if you were willing to set up a website to offer the ISO file with a link to PayPal for a donation I think it would make it very attractive for on line buyers. Although PayPal does charge 3% to payees.
I will probably make the final disc with at least the option to see 100% patterns. But I'd think there's a lot more to doing a CRT than my bare bones disc woudl include. Not being a CRT (projector) owner, I dont' know. If you have specific suggestions I'm open minded anyway :)

It's not just TT, but all Windows players. The problem seems to be caused in part by below black.

I was able to see BB on many players. If you see it- then that has to be absolute zero. When I do a screen capture it removes below black and tries to compensate for it. In any case, I don't think we can rely on the accuracy of screen captures for verifying IRE level accuracy :(

I was able to see BB on many players. If you see it- then that has to be absolute zero.

What do you mean by this?

When I do a screen capture it removes below black and tries to compensate for it.

In TT I get this as well, it's an expansion to the PC 0-255 range, though it's not what's actually seen as rendered video. I'm going to explore this hopefully soon to try to get actual screengrabs that reflect exactly what I see, and measure those. ZP does this without a problem it's just I have to spend 30 minutes every time figuring out how the heck to use ZP, and the ARs are all screwed up ;).

I don't think we can rely on the accuracy of screen captures for verifying IRE level accuracy

I think you meant level accuracy, IRE are not present on the disc.

Not sure why you guys are having these issues. I use MWSnap and capture from TT VMR9 renderless with none of these issues.

MWSnap also has a color picker tool, and I just reviewed one of my captures from the DVE pro crossed greyscale step pattern. I just displayed the PNG with Windows Picture and Fax viewer and used the picker to confirm each bars color values.
Every single one of the bars are spot on, perfect and equal RGB values.

The system I just checked this on is not my HT system, but the system I use for daily work at my desk. Card is an NVidia 5950 Ultra running the 71.72 drivers.

I'll do some additional checking later today.

addenda:

One other thing, apparently the white and black level contols have no effect whatsoever on the values that the color picker gets, which tells me that the color controls are applied later in the chain, probably via a LUT arrangement and do not affect the actual values in the video buffer.

On my system using DVE Pro crossed grey steps, video black is exactly 16,16,16 and video white is 235,235,235, regardless of the settings of the video control panels white and black levels or the levels in TT.

VMR9, renderless, ffdshow using Lanczos2 resize and DScaler sharpen, YUV mixing enabled.

I'll check both of HTPC's later today.

Vern

Vern, everything we measure in the gray scale, from BTB to WTW, measures perfectly. It is when we measure color windows (red, blue,green, cyan, magenta, or yellow) that the values are way off. I know it really shouldn't make any difference, as the greyscale patterns are made up of the same colors as the color windows, but for some unknown reason they don't measure correctly. If you have the time, please try measuring all six of the 75% or 100% color windows and let us know what you get.

On my system using DVE Pro crossed grey steps, video black is exactly 16,16,16 and video white is 235,235,235, regardless of the settings of the video control panels white and black levels or the levels in TT.

If you are using DVE Pro, the patterns are not actual moving video, but instead are still frames, so you have to make the color changes in TT, then change chapters, and then go back to the chapter you are measuring in order for the changes to take effect. This is one of the problems with using a HTPC with DVE, and one which Scott corrected in his disc by using infinitely looping MPEG2 video rather than stills - none of the silly chapter changes in order to have the color controls kick in...:D

It would have been an easy task to simply copy DVE's "still frame" method, as we wouldn't have had to worry about levels being effected by MPEG2 encoding, but we really wanted to have the changes take place in real time, and thus Scott valiantly struggled with the encoding process until he was able to encode without screwing up the levels. Believe me, this was no easy task! Scott spent countless hours within a couple of weeks time span before finally succeeding, but his efforts were very well spent!

the patterns are not actual moving video, but instead are still frames, so you have to make the color changes in TT, then change chapters, and then go back to the chapter you are measuring in order for the changes to take effect.

I am well aware of the issue with still frames and VMR9.

Even though I can clearly see the crushing on the screen, if I crank up the white level, the value shown by the MWSnap color picker is still 235,235,235.

So be aware: The values obtained from the color picker are NOT always the same as what is being sent to the display.

Here are my values for the DVE Title 12 Ch 15-20

Your DVE values ....... my DVE values

75% red window measures 238,0,0 ..... 183,15,16
75% green window measures 0,213,0 ..... 14,181,13
75% blue window measures 6,7,253 ...... 15,16,184
75% cyan window measures 0,205,204 ..... 13,181,181
75% magenta window measures 228,0,229 ..... 182,15,184
75% yellow window measures 191,190,0 ..... 182,181,13

These were taken direct from the screen, using MWSnap 3.0.0.74. Card is an NVidia 5950 Ultra running the 71.72 drivers.

VMR9, renderless full screen or window are the same, ffdshow using Lanczos2 resize and DScaler sharpen, YUV mixing enabled.

Vern

And you are using TT 2.1.1, not 2.2 or ZP, right?

I'll pick up a copy of MWSnap and try the same thing myself. It seems as if MWSnap, though it doesn't pick up color changes in the player, might be a better tool for measuring color values encoded in the video, though the values you reported from DVE Pro really should have been more accurate than that, don't you think?

Thanks, Vern.

If DVE Pro was mastered with analog signals, then it might not be. The mid-IRE values really take a beating for rounding errors when converted into (ahem, proper) digital values.

OK guys. I took the time to polish a couple details today. If you have Beta 1.x throw it away please. It has a few minor errors. I have corrected all known on Beta 2.0.

I have also:
Added a brief readme.txt file which explains the levels used in each pattern
Changed gray window pattern's labelling to indicate percentage instead of IRE. I also have levels indicated on gray windows.

My original grayscale was built using 16-236 so the individual step bar's levels would come out as integers. (steps of 11 for 5% steps). I have changed it to the more proper 10.95 steps and rounded each bar appropriately for 16-235. Exact calculations and 5% step levels are indicated in the readme.

Vern:

Maybe you could take a look and verify my colors are at least as accurate as DVE pro. When I compare to it, my numbers look like yours. The colors never come out perfect (i.e. I get 15 and 17 instead of the original 16 occasionally), but mine were as, if not more accurate (less deviation from the original level) than the reference discs I tested.

I am now providing a link here for the folks helping to take a look at it. It is not for noob use at this time, please do not D/L it unless you have something to contribute. I will leave it there for a limited time so the gurus here can have take a look. Let's be sure my colors are OK before anyone takes it and calibrates their display using it. I'm confident they are, but I'd like a second opinion when comparing apples and apples (i.e. vs a commercial DVD, not a PC pattern).

It's about a 3Mb download:
http://tn1.companypostoffice.com/scott/Calibrate-Beta_2-0_VTS.zip

I can verify your patterns directly in YCbCr.

Ron

I can verify your patterns directly in YCbCr.

RonGreat. I think. To be clear, are you saying you got the beta and tested it and it tested OK?, or that you have the ability to and will do it then let me know? Thanks

Great. I think. To be clear, are you saying you got the beta and tested it and it tested OK?, or that you have the ability to and will do it then let me know? Thanks

Something interesting and funny... I recorded this to a cd and put it in my computer dvd player to test the write and it shows "now playing - New Sex Now..Life's Ultimate Pleasure..."...LOL. Where the hell is it getting that from? Mind you, this was at work , on a machine that had PowerDVD installed, but movies aren't played on it. I wonder if that was grabbed from some online movie db, according to the name of the cd or a file on the cd?

Something interesting and funny... I recorded this to a cd and put it in my computer dvd player to test the write and it shows "now playing - New Sex Now..Life's Ultimate Pleasure..."...LOL. Where the hell is it getting that from? Mind you, this was at work , on a machine that had PowerDVD installed, but movies aren't played on it. I wonder if that was grabbed from some online movie db, according to the name of the cd or a file on the cd?
No, definitely not. You have a problem or at least issue with your PC.

GetGrey:

Downloaded the beta, looks good. I show +-1 on the 75% patterns and everything else looks spot on.

BTW, I did discover that ATI cards behave very differently from NVidia cards. The ATI color controls are apparently implemented at an earlier point in the data path and do affect the values retrieved by MWSnap.

Also, you need to watch the chroma value on the ATI cards. It needs to be set very close in TT to the default of -42 (NOT 0!!!!) so as not to mess up the color tracking. Raising it appreciably will clip the reds long before it affects the green and blue.

Vern

Vern:Thanks very much for looking. I don't use a HTPC but I hope the information on the cards is helpful to the other guys.

As for color patterns, I saw the same +/- 1 (digital levels) on my disc but I also saw it on the other commercial discs on the 75% color patterns. Typically in the black component of the colors (i.e. 15 instead of 16, etc.) Gray patterns and windows were dead on.

Since my creation is as close as the commercial discs I'm now comfortable letting it rip. It is definately close enough for a DVD. It was painful to figure out, this method was about the 8th method attempt.

Before I remove the Beta version from it, I'll probably add in a few more extra patterns. Specifically:
* 5% step gray windows (vs 10)
* 100% color windows
* green and blue ramp patterns (just for completeness)
* possibly some variation on the colorbars.

re: colorbars, I'm considering some sort of animated pattern which may make it easier to see. I've always had a hard time with color and hue, finding the just right spot was always tough. I liked Avia's pattern better than DVE but it's just a personal preference. Maybe something better than both? Any suggestions of ideas for this item anyone?

I'll see if I can find a way to do a resolution pattern but don't have high hopes for that. It's not something I use, but I'll try to do it anyway.

Right now it happens to be setup to match the Accucal software (per Bob). For my own purposes, I'll probably stick the 5% gray windows in place of the 10% steps. For those with Accucal they can always skip the "multiples of 5" windows. Jeff can let me know f he'd like to see a custom version to fit Accucal.

dr1394: I would sure like to have a Y/C delay pattern. Do you happen to have one you would be willing to contribute? It would save me some time. I don't have anything to open the .ts files linked in your signature, and wouldn't use them without permission anyway.

If anyone sees anything wrong with the brief explanations and logic in the included readme file (specifically regarding the levels for contrast patterns) please chime in and let me know.

Thanks guys,
Scott

I've finished looking at the test patterns. Here's the results:

1) 75% color bars and windows are just a little off. Your YCbCr values are (with correct values in parens):

Red = 65, 100, 210 (65, 100, 212)
Green = 112, 74, 60 (112, 72, 58)
Blue = 35, 210, 115 (35, 212, 114)
Cyan = 131, 156, 46 (131, 156, 44)
Magenta = 84, 182, 196 (84, 184, 198)
Yellow = 161, 46, 141 (162, 44, 142)

2) The checkerboard pattern is 0 for black and 255 for white. Is that what you intended?

3) The Ansi Lumens pattern and white field after that is 255. Is that what you intended?

4) The red chroma ramp is on a background of 5 instead of 16.

As for the Y/C delay pattern, what is your preferred format? I actually "author" in YCbCr, but I could give you a .bmp or .tga (or any other format that Photoshop can save to).

Ron

Hi Scott,

Any word on when us non-pros can get a copy of your test disk file? I'm interested.

Thanks.

Noob question :) Earlier in the thread you mention this was created for DLP, will it be beneficial for a person wishing to calibrate an LCD projector, like my Z2 :)

Thanks, Randy

I have a stupid question:
What's the prper way to burn this to a DVD for playing on a DVD player?
I have ezdvd creator 6. Should I use nero or something other than roxio's sw?
It plays fine from the HTPC, but it doesn't do black's and whites as well as the DVD player.
I'll be calebrating a PLVZ2 & Westinghouse 37 over component & DVI.
I'll provide feedback on my findings.
Thanks in advance.

I only played with this briefly - I like the simplicity and the order. Very useful and I expect to replace DVE and Avia for no-nonsense calibration.

Thanks Vern for checking out the patterns - too busy to look at the patterns on my HTPC lately, and I can use your findings as a reference too.

GetGray

I prefer the checkboard patterns for tint/hue rather than the little flashing squares. The more area of each color - like AVIA PRO. The tint/hue patterns on AccuPel are good too.

SethS from A/VPRO has a real simple DVD he authored that has a great pattern design that made absolute sense for doing tint/hue - but you have to get a training to get it - and it is a copyrighted DVD anyways.

Between A/VPRO, Accupel and AVIA PRO I have way to much $$$$ invested in patterns! I also have DisplayMate, ColorFacts, CaliBug, and Nokia Monitor for computer usage. Then to show the calibration customer - more down to earth stuff they should buy - I have AVIA (2 copies) and Sound & Vision. Never did buy VE, DVE or DVE/PRO....yet. I am sure I forget some....Did I mention that AVIA PRO includes the SMPTE, CEA and GENESIS patterns?

So I get a chuckle out of you guys trying to scrounge up some DIY patterns!

I've finished looking at the test patterns. Here's the results:

1) 75% color bars and windows are just a little off. Your YCbCr values are (with correct values in parens):

Red = 65, 100, 210 (65, 100, 212)
Green = 112, 74, 60 (112, 72, 58)
Blue = 35, 210, 115 (35, 212, 114)
Cyan = 131, 156, 46 (131, 156, 44)
Magenta = 84, 182, 196 (84, 184, 198)
Yellow = 161, 46, 141 (162, 44, 142)

Ron, thanks very much for taking a look at them. Being a perfectionist, I'm concerned about the erorrs. Do you know if DVE has the corresponding small errors? Are these very small errors insignificant or are these bad? I don't want to release a disc with my mark on it that's not right. I would hope these errors would be very small and imperceptable from mortal instruments? Even better, I would be tickled to know the same errors existed on DVE/Avia Pro. If it's good enough for them then it's good enough for me. Along those lines, I see the same errors on RGB from DVE as are on mine (+/-1 here and there), but I have no way to measure the component values, that I know of :)

2) The checkerboard pattern is 0 for black and 255 for white. Is that what you intended?

3) The Ansi Lumens pattern and white field after that is 255. Is that what you intended?Yes, this was intentional. My logic was that when measuring the ANSI contrast/lumens, one is looking for maximums. I figured by using 0 and 255 that any user calibration that allowed for BTB or WTW would not result in maximum brightness or extingusiment. By using 0 and 255 one would be insured the display was as black and as white as it could be.

If it was set so reference black and white (16/235) were the darkest/lightest the display could do then it woudln't matter. But if the user had for instance allowed WW information to pass, checking ANSI at reference white (235) would not have turned the PJ as bright as it was set to go when displaying say 240.

If this is wrong, I'm happy to set the ANSI patterns to 16 and 235. I did add this information in the readme so folks would know.

4) The red chroma ramp is on a background of 5 instead of 16.
That is an error, I will correct it. Thank you.

As for the Y/C delay pattern, what is your preferred format? I actually "author" in YCbCr, but I could give you a .bmp or .tga (or any other format that Photoshop can save to). .bmp woudl be great!

Thanks again Ron!

I have a stupid question:
What's the prper way to burn this to a DVD for playing on a DVD player?
I have ezdvd creator 6. Should I use nero or something other than roxio's sw?
It plays fine from the HTPC, but it doesn't do black's and whites as well as the DVD player.
I'll be calebrating a PLVZ2 & Westinghouse 37 over component & DVI.
I'll provide feedback on my findings.
Thanks in advance.
The beta is just the files. Final version will likely be an iso. For the files, you use your software just like you would burn any DVD. How to do that is a subject for another thread. But basically you put the ziped files in the VIDEO_TS folder off the root of the DVD.

I prefer the checkboard patterns for tint/hue rather than the little flashing squares. The more area of each color - like AVIA PRO. The tint/hue patterns on AccuPel are good too.Sorry, I have access to neither so I dont' kow what they look like. Maybe Greg would let me use a varation of his. I can make the checkers huge if that helps.

SethS from A/VPRO has a real simple DVD he authored that has a great pattern design that made absolute sense for doing tint/hue - but you have to get a training to get it - and it is a copyrighted DVD anyways.Cool, but I can't use anything copyrighted obviously. I would like to know what they look like.

Between A/VPRO, Accupel and AVIA PRO I have way to much $$$$ invested in patterns! I also have DisplayMate, ColorFacts, CaliBug, and Nokia Monitor for computer usage. Then to show the calibration customer - more down to earth stuff they should buy - I have AVIA (2 copies) and Sound & Vision. Never did buy VE, DVE or DVE/PRO....yet. I am sure I forget some....Did I mention that AVIA PRO includes the SMPTE, CEA and GENESIS patterns?Yep, thre's aton of cool stuff out there. I got permission to add a very nice multi-test pattern yesterday. I want to encode it before announcing it to be sure I have no issues with it. It will meet one of 2 missing items on my disc, maybe both.

I certaintly dont' mean for it to replace a pro's disc set. No way to do that. The commercial tools will always have more tests, bells and whistles. But for me, I find I only need a handful of stuff. On several threads there's always noobs trying to figure out if they can do BTB or WTW and folks pointing this way and that to get it. FOr home users, I like some of Avia, some of DVE. Mostly DVE which I have no trouble navigating, but others find it difficult. So tis will lump all of what I use, plus a few into one easy to use spot. I hope.

Cheers,
Scott

Scott - To be fully standards compliant, you want "peak" black at 1 and peak white at 254. Unfortunately, since I am back on the road, I don't have access to any of my toys from home. However, I'll take a gander for any general comments later in the week.

Thanks for all of your work!

Best Regards,
Bill

Thanks Bill.

I will change all locations where it is appropriate to have peak black/white to 1 and 254 instead of 0 and 255.

Scott

Scott - One other thing (I just ran through the README, not the actual disc itself): Can you also add 100% RGBCMY patterns into the disc as well? Also, is there any way to get green and blue ramps, too?

Later,
Bill

So I get a chuckle out of you guys trying to scrounge up some DIY patterns!

Kevin, this disc wasn't created because Scott had nothing better to do...It was created out of NECESSITY!!

If someone had created a nice, easy to use disc for us hobbyists who wish to do our own calibrations, or even an easy to use tool for the professional, then this disc would have never been created. The problem is that there is not a single low cost disc out there that meets the needs of the home calibrator, so it just had to be done!

If anyone, amateur or prefessional alike, wants to perform a calibration, then he faces these issues:

1. Any of the low cost discs (Avia, DVE, or S&V) either does not have a complete set of patterns, has bad color levels, or is unnecessarily difficult to navigate. All three are too hard to navigate, while the others simply do not provide enough patterns to get the job done, even if you mix and match from all three.
2. The only discs available that have the needed patterns are Avia Pro and DVE Pro, which still suffer from unnecessarily difficult navigation, and they cost $400 and $300 respectively...way too much money for what we need!
3. The last option is to use a pattern generator, and the Accupel is probably the best buy here at something like $1300...Again, way too much money for the hobbyist, but probably quite reasonable for the professional.

So the only way for a hobbyist to get a disc based set of patterns is to purchase one of the Pro packages, and Scott and I both agreed that for the handful of patterns that we actually need, as well as the poor navigation we must endure, it just doesn't make sense.

Thus the need to create the perfect pattern disc among ourselves, as there is no reasonable alternative!

Scott - One other thing (I just ran through the README, not the actual disc itself): Can you also add 100% RGBCMY patterns into the disc as well? Also, is there any way to get green and blue ramps, too?

Later,
Bill

Yep, see note above. Plans are to:

Before I remove the Beta version from it, I'll probably add in a few more extra patterns. Specifically:
* 5% step gray windows (vs 10)
* 100% color windows
* green and blue ramp patterns (just for completeness)
* possibly some variation on the colorbars.

Still wanting to keep bare bones, but would like to add for completeness of what I use, Y/C delay. Looking into that one, and resolution per Chirs' request to find 1:1 pixel mapping. Don't know if I can do those or not. I beleive dr1394 has a Y/C pattern he's going ot let me have a look at.

I'd also like a different colorbar pattern. Although mine's just boxes in a row, it's similar to another one. Maybe nothing to worry about, have to be careful.

Cool! Will the licensing terms stay constant from the current beta?

You mean free :) ? Still thinking about it, but probably. What I will probably do is make it donationware with a paypal address for "tips" if you like it. That won't do much so maybe dangle the carrot of adding registered owners (those who donated or bought) to a list of those who whill be notified of updates. Distribute it in iso form so new folks, less technical ones, and those without a DVD burner will want to buy a nice disc with a label and case, etc. And it wil be cheap. Thinking $5.00 + S&H. I hate to make it nagware, but maybe let the totally free version with a required main screen that pauses, or something like that. We all know copyprotection is a waste of time on DVD's, so maybe I'll just make it free period.

Trying to think of other carrots. I'm certaintly open to making "custom" versions with maybe a store's logo, or an owner's theater name on the opening screen, etc. It would be nice to get a little something out of it, not too much. Maybe get Tweeter/Circuit City to buy copies to give away with every display they sell (now I'm day dreaming :D).

Scott, I think the donationware idea is probably best. As you mentioned, there really is no sense in trying to protect it, and I really think that it would take a real shmoe not to send you $5 for this incredibly useful disc. If nothing else, it will serve as an experiment in human behavior.

I dished out $20 for S&V, between $30 and $40 each for DVE and Avia, and then another $300 for DVE Pro, and this is the only disc I will use 99% of the time. The people who don't need this disc won't bother with it, and the ones who do need it will be eternally grateful.

I'd agree, but I think you're underpricing the packaged disc. I think raw materials alone would set you back $1 - $2/disc, not counting your time. However, we can take that discussion offline... ;)

Later,
Bill

Scott -- $10+S&H for a disk would not be too much, considering the time you've put into it and the hassle of S&H. For those of us that can do our own ISO burning, the donationware sounds good. Let me know how to send you the $5 (it's worth that to me certainly - for an easy to use for basic calibration source). Email update notification (or something similar through AVS?) would be great.

Will this calibration disc work with my Westinghouse 37" that is connected via VIA to my computer???

Yes. The caveat is whether the PC will output correct color.

Scott -- $10+S&H for a disk would not be too much, considering the time you've put into it and the hassle of S&H. For those of us that can do our own ISO burning, the donationware sounds good. Let me know how to send you the $5 (it's worth that to me certainly - for an easy to use for basic calibration source). Email update notification (or something similar through AVS?) would be great.

Claus, et.al:

Thanks. [edit - link removed for compliance]

For now, progress and update announcements will be via this thread. I'll play it by ear after that. AVS is certaintly my first choice for any general announcements.

BEst,
Scott

Will this calibration disc work with my Westinghouse 37" that is connected via VIA to my computer???

Hello there my friend.
It looks like we're both getting around.

The post following yours is correct. I had the same issues playing this disk from My HTPC as I did with the Avia disk. That is, I saw no bars in the contrast & brightness paterns. I haven't made any adjustments to the PC's setting yet to see if I can get it to even put out black & white let alone btb & wtw. I will in the next day or so. Please let me know what you get on your West 37 & PC.

I did just now used this on my IBM (its own flat panel) and was able to adjust it to see all four moving bars in the contrast & brightness paterns. This means it can display btb & wtw.

Nice looking disk!
I like the arrangement and simplicity. The Avia disk is agrevating to use.

John

I know this is in Beta, but will there eventually be a release that will explain how to use the various calibration tools? I downloaded it and really like the interface and ease of navigation, however, being a noob : not sure what I'm to do with all of the tests :)

I know this is in Beta, but will there eventually be a release that will explain how to use the various calibration tools? I downloaded it and really like the interface and ease of navigation, however, being a noob : not sure what I'm to do with all of the tests

I would qualify this disc as an "intermediate" tool. No disrespect intended, but if you don't know what these patterns are for, then this disc probably won't be of much use to you....right now.

The consumer discs I mentioned earlier (DVE, Avia, and S&V) all walk you through the most elementary checks and adjustments, and as such would be more appropriate for a beginner. But once you begin to delve into more "serious" calibration (that requiring measurement tools and a more thorough understanding of the calibration procedure), then this is where this disc comes into play. Once you have used something like a Gretag Macbeth EyeOne Pro Spectrophotometer with calibration software like UMR's i1 Pro DCS or ColorFacts, then this disc will make a LOT of sense to you.

This disc is still very handy even for the complete newbie, but I would recommend the purchase of one of the other three discs first, learning the basic calibration ins and outs from that disc, and then trying out Scott's disc. Or maybe Scott and the rest of us will help write up a beginner's guide which can be used for reference for all of the newbies who want to get started (hint, hint ;) ) without first buying one of the "big three" discs.

Bob & Scott
This is what I have been waiting for and although I have DVE and Avia I would buy this one just to cut out all the unrelated topics in the previously mentioned disks.

The Beginners Guide will help me greatly as well.

Put me down as a buyer for the DVD when available.

I know this is in Beta, but will there eventually be a release that will explain how to use the various calibration tools? I downloaded it and really like the interface and ease of navigation, however, being a noob : not sure what I'm to do with all of the tests :)


I am with ya... I wouldn't know what to do with them, once I was to display them. This is where this might be useful and cool for the videofile , but where a tutorial version could be cool, for a small fee.

Hello there my friend.
It looks like we're both getting around.

The post following yours is correct. I had the same issues playing this disk from My HTPC as I did with the Avia disk. That is, I saw no bars in the contrast & brightness paterns. I haven't made any adjustments to the PC's setting yet to see if I can get it to even put out black & white let alone btb & wtw. I will in the next day or so. Please let me know what you get on your West 37 & PC.

I did just now used this on my IBM (its own flat panel) and was able to adjust it to see all four moving bars in the contrast & brightness paterns. This means it can display btb & wtw.

Nice looking disk!
I like the arrangement and simplicity. The Avia disk is agrevating to use.

JohnJohn:

Thanks, for the compliment. One reason I added the horizontal stripe to my brightness and contrast moving bar patterns is exactly for situations like you describe. With it, you have a visual indicator (albeit small so as not to be intrusive or distracting) of *where* the moving bars would be if you could see them. That way, one can easily tell whether or not they are seeing what's supposed to be there.

Very glad to see that part of my pattern is sucessful in it's purpose.

Cheers, Scott

Bob & Scott
This is what I have been waiting for and although I have DVE and Avia I would buy this one just to cut out all the unrelated topics in the previously mentioned disks.

The Beginners Guide will help me greatly as well.

Put me down as a buyer for the DVD when available.It would be great to have input on what/how to use each pattern for. But, really, without tools like those described by Bob, a lot of this isn't very useful (i.e .gray windows, color windows). The fundamental adjustments ARE here however and a noob can use those just fine. Specifically contrast and brightness, Y/C delay if I add it, color and hue can all be done. And the grayscale can be viewed giving a visual indication of anything grossly out of whack.

I'll try to get some time to write up some basic usage instructions but contributions are welcome.

Thanks Michael. Maybe on version 3+. My head is just now cooling off from findign the correct process for this one :)

I have a bunch of tools for SD mpeg, I do't have squat fod HD. The one HD encoder I do have access to was one that clipped BTB/WTW in SD. I don't have a clue how to make a .ts. But dr1394 (above) has several linked in his sig IIRC.

Hello there my friend.
It looks like we're both getting around.

The post following yours is correct. I had the same issues playing this disk from My HTPC as I did with the Avia disk. That is, I saw no bars in the contrast & brightness paterns. I haven't made any adjustments to the PC's setting yet to see if I can get it to even put out black & white let alone btb & wtw. I will in the next day or so. Please let me know what you get on your West 37 & PC.

I did just now used this on my IBM (its own flat panel) and was able to adjust it to see all four moving bars in the contrast & brightness paterns. This means it can display btb & wtw.

Nice looking disk!
I like the arrangement and simplicity. The Avia disk is agrevating to use.

John

Ha~! We meet again. :D
BTW, the Westy is incredible even with the factory settings. I'm so happy that I made the right move. However, I'm having difficult time setting up the calibration. It certainly is no easy part of getting the better picture. Perhaps I need to study a little more to obtain enough knowledge so that I can start calibrate my Westy to perfection. HAHA. That's too funny. :D
I'm going to try set it up again since I did mess up the first time and had default my settings. LOL. As I mentioned before, I'm a complete newbie and am trying very hard to make the best my new Westy. I LOVE IT.
Did I tell everyone this calibration disk seems very useful, but kind of hard to use for the newbies? :D Still, it seems like a very nice tool to use. I would like to purchase one as soon as it's released just like many others will. :D

Ron, thanks very much for taking a look at them. Being a perfectionist, I'm concerned about the erorrs. Do you know if DVE has the corresponding small errors? Are these very small errors insignificant or are these bad? I don't want to release a disc with my mark on it that's not right. I would hope these errors would be very small and imperceptable from mortal instruments? Even better, I would be tickled to know the same errors existed on DVE/Avia Pro. If it's good enough for them then it's good enough for me. Along those lines, I see the same errors on RGB from DVE as are on mine (+/-1 here and there), but I have no way to measure the component values, that I know of :)

Here's the RBG and HSB values I get in Photoshop with my YCbCr to RGB conversion program. First line for each color is correct YCbCr values and second line is your values. I'm seeing +/- 3 RGB levels on your colors.

Yellow = 192, 192, 1 HSB = 60, 99, 75
Yellow = 190, 190, 3 HSB = 60, 98, 75

Cyan = 0, 191, 190 HSB = 180, 100, 75
Cyan = 3, 190, 190 HSB = 180, 98, 75

Green = 0, 191, 0 HSB = 120, 100, 75
Green = 3, 188, 3 HSB = 120, 98, 74

Magenta = 191, 0, 192 HSB = 300, 100, 75
Magenta = 188, 3, 188 HSB = 300, 98, 74

Red = 191, 0, 1 HSB = 0, 100, 75
Red = 188, 1, 1 HSB = 0, 99, 74

Blue = 0, 1, 192 HSB = 240, 100, 75
Blue = 1, 1, 188 HSB = 240, 99, 74


.bmp would be great!

Thanks again Ron!
The SD Y/C delay pattern is ready. I also have some resolution burst patterns.

Ron

Just burned a DVD (Nero Ultra 6 – Recode to DVD), and ran it on my PC’s monitor (to verify that I burned it correctly). It worked :D. I had a few problems with Nero, until I tried its Recode option.

I found that my PC monitor (19” Samsung SyncMaster 930B) was fine on the black level but it crushed whites badly (I guess I’ll have to calibrate it a little – that should be much easier with your DVD though). I preferred AVIA for a quick calibration, but it wasn’t really that easy for a PC monitor, for Contrast & Brightness levels.

One suggestion, on the 10% (soon to be 5% ?) step gray windows, it would be nice (not necessary, just nice) to have the labels bottom out at 10% and top out at 90% so they can be read. As it is, the 0% label and 100% label can’t be read at all. I didn’t realize what I was looking at, until I got to the next screen (then the light bulb lit).

My next step (tomorrow, I hope) is to put it into my DVD player and try it on my PJ (on my temporary HC3 LCD, until my MT700 DLP gets its lamp replaced).

riDuh7 – I would suggest you use AVIA first (at least to get the colors correct and an approximate white level and black level – I used my eyeballs for those, since my ATI 9600xt card didn’t want to cooperate with AVIA – or DVE). Then use Scott’s tools to set the blacks & whites. I may not be able to get the whites completely correct due to the 9600xt card behavior.

Here's the RBG and HSB values I get in Photoshop with my YCbCr to RGB conversion program. First line for each color is correct YCbCr values and second line is your values. I'm seeing +/- 3 RGB levels on your colors.
Ron, I expect some of the error is that whatever you are using to capture the RGB is converting back to PC space. Becasue the RGB's were created with 16 for "off" not 0 or which your output appears to be converting to. When I capture them they come out as 16 +/-1 as does DVE Pro.

Can you check your DVE pro disc's color using the same procedure used to check mine?

GetGray, you beat me to it...... While I was composing and re-checking you snuck one in on me....

Ron,

I would question the accuracy of your numbers as the data encoded on the test disc should be reproduced as video levels starting at 16 for black and ending at 235 for white. It looks like something in your environment is expanding these to PC levels, possibly introducing some inaccuracy in the process.

75% of 240 is 180. Anything higher than 180 has had it's levels tampered with. Anything lower than 16, ditto.

The only environment I completely trust today to preserve video levels properly is the NVidia decoder / Driver / Video card.

My numbers are on the third line, taken directly from the video buffer and also saved as a PNG and viewed in Photoshop7 where the HSB #'s were obtained. The RGB levels were also verified in Photoshop.

Yellow = 192, 192, 1 HSB = 60, 99, 75
Yellow = 190, 190, 3 HSB = 60, 98, 75
Yellow = 179, 180, 16 HSB = 60, 91, 71

Cyan = 0, 191, 190 HSB = 180, 100, 75
Cyan = 3, 190, 190 HSB = 180, 98, 75
Cyan = 16, 180, 181 HSB = 180, 91, 71

Green = 0, 191, 0 HSB = 120, 100, 75
Green = 3, 188, 3 HSB = 120, 98, 74
Green = 16, 179, 16 HSB = 120, 91, 70

Magenta = 191, 0, 192 HSB = 300, 100, 75
Magenta = 188, 3, 188 HSB = 300, 98, 74
Magenta = 180, 17, 180 HSB = 300, 91, 71

Red = 191, 0, 1 HSB = 0, 100, 75
Red = 188, 1, 1 HSB = 0, 99, 74
Red = 180, 16, 16 HSB = 0, 91, 71

Blue = 0, 1, 192 HSB = 240, 100, 75
Blue = 1, 1, 188 HSB = 240, 99, 74
Blue = 17, 16, 181 HSB = 240, 91, 71



Again, no more than +/-1 deviation from the the proper values. The black/white checkerboard checks out at 0/254.

Environment: TT 2.2 (no, it's not generally available yet), VMR9, NVidia 4020.183 decoders, NVidia 5950 Ultra video card, XP, SP2.

Vern

Scott, excellent work. Exactly what I've been looking for - a quick fix no nonsense disc! I'm an avid amateur with both the old VE, Avia (consumer) and DVE (for PAL stuff), but either there's too much or too difficult to navigate.

No, I haven't downloaded your files yet, waiting for the .iso, but then I'll be happy to Paypal you. The Y/C delay pattern, though, would be as you said a useful and nice feature.

Great work!

I've had a quick look at it and it does seem very useful indeed. I've yet to try it for a calibration run, but it could be the alternative to DVE for those that hate the navigation aspect of it.

The red ramp is going to be very useful for visually finding the crush point so that you don't run out above 90IRE. Thanks for putting that in.

Gary.

Another question: Should colors be mixed using 16 for black or 0 for black? If 0 were used, it seems to me that it would be "safer", but I don't know if the BTB level would affect how the color is perceived.

OK guys: I'd like some opinions. 1st remember the objective here is simplicity and easy navigation.

First, I plan to rename my "extra patterns" main menu item to "advanced patterns"

1. For the additional 5% step gray windows I'd like to add, I can:
a) add them to the existing gray window sequence.
Pros: simple,
Cons: won't align with someone wanting a 10% step sequence.
Workaround: manually skip the 5% patterns if you don't want to use them.

OR

b) under the advanced patterns submenu, have a submenu and corresponding sequence with 0-100% in steps of 5.
Pros: separates the 5% step sequence from the 10% step sequence.
Cons: makes the disc one step more complicated, for those who want a 5% step on the grayscales, it will not be in the "main sequence" that exists now as one continuous chain of the normal patterns.

2. Labels for Window gray patterns:

Currently I have the set to be the same level as the pattern itself. i.e. if the window is 5%, then the text is gray and also 5%. I originally had the 0% (level 16 black) window with 5% text so you could still see the text.

My logic was to keep the text the same color so as not to have ANSI contrast "spillover" from brighter text onto the darker pattern. This necessitated a "unlabelled" 0% window.

I had one person ask to be albe to see the text brighter, but probably didn't understand the reasons I didn't. So there they are.

Anyone disagree with the logic and think I should brighten the text labels on low level patterns? If yes, why?

3. If I add resolution and Y/C delay, where in the sequence of patterns would be best? As is, one see:
A general gray ramp, FYI only at this point
One would would set black, white
Next Color, hue.
Next comes primary/secondary colors. If the display can do it you would adjust primaries here, if not you would measure them here.
Next is the gray patterns.

I think I will add another gray ramp at the end of the gray patterns.

For the gray patterns, I can make them loop. That is for example, start at grayscale/ramp, then 0%, 5%, etc to 100%. Pressing "next" take you back around to grayscale, 0%, etc. Menu takes you back to main menu. This would only work if the gray windows were at the end of the chain of patterns.

Opinions?

Scott

The red ramp is going to be very useful for visually finding the crush point so that you don't run out above 90IRE. Thanks for putting that in.
You are welcome. I believe it was from you that I learned that would be a useful thing, so you get credit for it :).

Now that I sucked up some, maybe you would be willing to contribute a brief "how-to" for that pattern's usage that I can add to the readme :D

Another question: Should colors be mixed using 16 for black or 0 for black? If 0 were used, it seems to me that it would be "safer", but I don't know if the BTB level would affect how the color is perceived.FWIW, I chose 16 as the "off" level on color patterns (i.e red= 235,16,16) since that's what the "other guys" did. I figured not setting the "floor" at 16 would cause miscolorations if the device's blac level was not set perfectly. Otherwise, the level of the colro component might rise, but due to the off componenet being below black, it woudl still be below black thus incorrectly affecting the intended colors balance. Especially after it goes through RGB->YCbCr->RGB digital calculations and transformations. But again, main reason was I believe that is the most correct thing to do.

GetGray:

Leave the black at 16. That is standard DVD video black.
Or, alternately, add another set of patterns at PC levels as a second level menu.

I agree that the 5% patterns should not be interleaved, but should be under a separate chapter.

I would think that as long as menus are not more than two deep (Main - Basic) Main - PC Levels) (Main - Advanced) etc and that all patterns are chaptered within each second level menu, people should not have issues with navigation. Maybe 3 deep would be acceptable.

Personally, I have no issues navigating any of the existing test DVD's, but I can see where automated measurement systems could easily have problems dealing with the Title/Menu/Chapter process.

Vern

1. b. (obviously, for my own selfish interests, as it works best with Jeff's software :) ) . I don't know how much work is involved, but maybe it would be easy to simply have two "calibration sequences" - one with 10% gradations and the other with 5% steps. I don't know a heck of a lot about authoring, but I think it is simply a matter of using the same encoded video, but writing two different "scripts" detailing the sequence of events. Isn't that the kind of thing they do with alternate endings and extended editions for movies?
2. If the text is far from the actual window, then spillover should not be an issue. I still like having the text at the same level as the window (as a safeguard), but as one poster recommended, I would probably limit the text to 10% at the low end, just for readability.
3. As long as there are no interruptions between the color windows and the gray windows, then putting in the Y/C delay pattern anywhere else should be fine. I would probably put it after the hue pattern and just before the primary/secondary color windows.

FWIW, I chose 16 as the "off" level on color patterns (i.e red= 235,16,16) since that's what the "other guys" did. I figured not setting the "floor" at 16 would cause miscolorations if the device's blac level was not set perfectly.

Got it. I just wanted to see if anyone had a different opinion on this.

Hi GG,

OK, this is how I'd use it:

After setting the white and black levels first:

Display the red ramp pattern and increase the red contrast adjustment (sometimes referred to as red gain) until the last two increments blend together. Then decrease the adjustment until the last increment becomes just visible again. Make a note of this setting (i.e Red Contrast = -5) and when adjusting the RGB contrast/gain control during grey scale calibration make sure you don't go above that value. You should be able to confirm the setting if your using a colorimiter or similar with something like Colorfacts. After completing the greyscale, you should have it nice and flat up to 100IRE.

Hopefully that will be OK, but if Kras or others wish to make any corrections/additions then please feel free to do so.

Gary.

My recommendations:
1) Use BTB for the "off" value for the primaries and secondaries, e.g., 1. This is the blackest legal video code and should under no circumstances round to being within the visible code range.

2) Text labels should not compromise the target APL. Using an idealized gamma curve, and a 50:1 instantaneous CR limit, means you have +/-20% on text from the current value (e.g., digital 16 could have up to digital 60 for its text label color).

Later,
Bill

I'm sticking with 16 for "off" on color patterns. Becasue worst case, I can stand behind that by pointing to the other respected discs and say that's how they did it. Many already don't trust Avia for color errors, and they *are* there. It goes to be expected that one might not trust my disc, but if mine is the same as the pro disc sets then there is no argument to be made. Unless one wants to argue the pro level discs are wrong, but I've never seen that. They are universally accepted as correct, so mne is, too. By that comparison. If I go off on my own I'd have to defend the reasoing which I don't want to be in the position of doing. So, for no more reason than that's the way they did it, I'm sticking to 16.

But for pattern background color, I'm flexible and lean toward black(1). Of course I'd have to re-do them all so I'll just say maybe on those.

As for text labels, if they are matched to the pattern, then they are visible with 0% risk of contamination of level pattern/window. The pattern is visible after all. Except for 0% of course and I can live with one unlabelled window. For above 0%, if the pattern is not visible, the user skipped step 1 on setting levels and looking at gray patterns is a waste of time. I mean normally the next window is 10% and that should certaintly be visible. An advanced user might be using 5% (also unlikely since hardly any of our instruments will read that low). But an advanced user will definately have the black level set before continuing to this point and at the very low APL shoudl be able to see the 5% label.

That said, really any percent gray window patterns below say 10-20 are of little use to anyone really, but there for completeness and continuity. Unless you have a $10k light meter.

If I move the labels to the lower right corner, etc. then I have to deal with staying in the title safe zones to avoid being cropped, although for my displays that's not an issue. I still think that even at the lower right corner on a big screen, for a PJ even brighter text could bleed some stray light onto the image which is the paramount concern. I'll defer to absolute accuracy over any labeling for sure.

I could do voice labels, but since it repeats that would drive everyone insane "0 percent, 0 percent, 0 percent, 0 percent..." :D

...That said, really any percent gray window patterns below say 10-20 are of little use to anyone really, but there for completeness and continuity. Unless you have a $10k light meter.....:D

That is not true. I have always read to 0% level with my equipment and I am not using a $10,000 light meter.

I have always read to 0% level with my equipment
OK, then I stand corrected! and they stay :) (not that I was taking them out anyway). But I still think having low level (equal to pattern) labels to be the the safest plan.

BTW, I rounded up a i1 for myself, I need to get with you to activate my Accucal software.

Best, Scott

Ron, I expect some of the error is that whatever you are using to capture the RGB is converting back to PC space. Becasue the RGB's were created with 16 for "off" not 0 or which your output appears to be converting to. When I capture them they come out as 16 +/-1 as does DVE Pro.

Can you check your DVE pro disc's color using the same procedure used to check mine?
Sorry, I didn't realize you were using video RGB. No problemo. In fact, it's good that I found out, because my Y/C pattern .bmp I was going to send you is in PC video levels.

This is exactly why I author and verify in YCbCr space. No ambiguities.

I'll post the video RGB values later today.

Ron

OK, then I stand corrected! and they stay :) (not that I was taking them out anyway). But I still think having low level (equal to pattern) labels to be the the safest plan.

BTW, I rounded up a i1 for myself, I need to get with you to activate my Accucal software.

Best, Scott

Scott,

Just drop me an email and I'll send you your license key.

Scott, I have no problems with leaving the gray step labels the same as the window level. It was just a suggestion. I agree with your arguments 100% - no label change is definitely preferred, especially, if there is any chance of compromizing levels.

As for where to put the 5% steps, for my use, I have no preference.

Don't forget to add the Green ramps and Blue ramps to your existing Red ramp pattern.

I really apreciate your efforts! It puts the finishing touch on the job of doing my own calibrating. My "donation" is on it's way.

Thanks Claus for yours and everyone's input. Not to worry, the other 2 color ramps are a done deal and easy to do from my gray pattern.

Don't anyone mistake my comments as defensive. I'm just laying out the logic I used to make the patterns. I didn't color a single spot without putting some thought into it. Some of these items are small details but that's what will make it the best. Just want to be sure none of my logic was just plain wrong, or I missed a better way to do it.

No one has a better idea on color bars? Kras' eluded to some but they were proprietary and I haven't seen them myself.

Cheers,
Scott

riDuh7 – I would suggest you use AVIA first (at least to get the colors correct and an approximate white level and black level – I used my eyeballs for those, since my ATI 9600xt card didn’t want to cooperate with AVIA – or DVE). Then use Scott’s tools to set the blacks & whites. I may not be able to get the whites completely correct due to the 9600xt card behavior.

Thanks for your advise. I do use GeForce 6800GT and is working great with my Westinghouse 37 incher. BTW, AVIA... what is that and where can I get it? I assume that it is a calibration tool that you pop in to a DVD player... correct? I've heard lots of it and never had a chance to look into it... Any further advise?

Alan

Scott,

I like a multi level checkerboard for setting color and tint. You could vary the levels from about 25 to 100% for each color (white, red, green, blue, magenta, cyan, yellow) in 25% increments. This can help isolate problems with the decoder at different picture levels. It can be pretty illuminating.

Thanks for your advise. I do use GeForce 6800GT and is working great with my Westinghouse 37 incher. BTW, AVIA... what is that and where can I get it? I assume that it is a calibration tool that you pop in to a DVD player... correct? I've heard lots of it and never had a chance to look into it... Any further advise?

Alan
Correct. You can get it from some well known online book stores for about $38. It has guides that explain how to use their test paterns. It also includes a red, green and blue filter for you to look through for certain paterns. Using this disk is why I pretty much know what to do with Scott's paterns without guidance. Use it for a while and you'll understan how to use Scott's paterns and see why he has done some of the things he has. It's a real pain to navigate to the particular paterns you want in Avia until you get a feel for it. Even then, it's still a pain. Scott looped his paterns because just as you get close to honing in on the setting using Avia (and others presumably) it advances to the next patern. This Forces you to loose your focus and go back to the previous patern.

GetGrey:

Downloaded the beta, looks good. I show +-1 on the 75% patterns and everything else looks spot on.

BTW, I did discover that ATI cards behave very differently from NVidia cards. The ATI color controls are apparently implemented at an earlier point in the data path and do affect the values retrieved by MWSnap.

Also, you need to watch the chroma value on the ATI cards. It needs to be set very close in TT to the default of -42 (NOT 0!!!!) so as not to mess up the color tracking. Raising it appreciably will clip the reds long before it affects the green and blue.
Vern

I'm no expert like many of you, but here's what I see.
I have an ATI 9600 wit Catalyst 5.9 and get the following results measured using ColorCop.

Brightness: Background=7, -4%=0, -1%=4, +1%=10, +2%=12
Contrast: Everything is 255

I suspect my video card is messing with these levels, especially the whites.
Vern Dias, Can you explain what you said above a bit more? "It needs to be set very close in TT to the default of -42 (NOT 0!!!!)" Where/ how do I do this? Could it help correct the issues I see? I make mods in Catalyst, the colors displayed change, but the values don't.

Yellow = 207, 208, 47
Cyan = 42, 202, 203
Green = 38, 197, 38
Magenta = 190, 32, 191
Red = 185, 24, 24
Blue = 15, 15, 175

Can you check your DVE pro disc's color using the same procedure used to check mine?
I don't have DVE pro, but I do have DVE. YCbCr levels of the color bars in DVE are also in error. Since the YCbCr values in DVE are very close to your YCbCr values, I'll guess that DVE pro has the same problem and you've faithfully reproduced those errors.

The lesson here is chose your "reference" wisely. Since you are creating an MPEG-2 file, you are essentially creating a YCbCr product. Therefore, to avoid multiple conversion errors, the RBG values should be converted to YCbCr once and then appear in the reconstructed MPEG-2 YCbCr raster. Converting back to RGB to check the levels adds another round of inaccuracy and should be avoided. The correct reference that applies here is ITU-R BT.601 and it's description of RGB to YCbCr conversion. From BT.601:

Ey = 0.299Er + 0.587Eg + 0.114Eb

Ecr = 0.500Er - 0.419Eg - 0.081Eb

Ecb = - 0.169Er - 0.331Eg + 0.500Eb

Y = 219Ey + 16

Cr = 224Ecr + 128

Cb = 224Ecb + 128

and the corresponding level after quantization is the nearest integer value.

Let's take green as an example:

Ey = 0.587 * 0.75
Y = (219 * 0.44025) + 16
Y = 112.41475
Y = 112

Ecr = -0.419 * 0.75
Cr = (224 * -0.31425) + 128
Cr = 57.608
Cr = 58

Ecb = -0.331 * 0.75
Cb = (224 * - 0.24825) + 128
Cb = 72.392
Cb = 72

So the correct YCbCr for green is 112, 72, 58. Not 112, 74, 60 on your pattern and not 113, 74, 59 on the DVE pattern.

How much difference do a few Cb or Cr levels make? Here's a thread on the error in Avia grayscales:

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=439803&highlight=YCbCr

I've attached a couple of programs. An MPEG-2 decoder that dumps to YCbCr and a RGB to YCbCr calculator. The source for the RGB to YCbCr calculator:

/*
BT.601 RGB to YCbCr conversion
*/

#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>

int main(int argc, char **argv)
{
int i, r, g, b;
double y, u, v;
double cr, cg, cb, cu, cv;
unsigned char yi, ui, vi;
int matrix_coefficients = 6;
static double coef[7][3] = {
{0.2125,0.7154,0.0721}, /* ITU-R Rec. 709 (1990) */
{0.299, 0.587, 0.114}, /* unspecified */
{0.299, 0.587, 0.114}, /* reserved */
{0.30, 0.59, 0.11}, /* FCC */
{0.299, 0.587, 0.114}, /* ITU-R Rec. 624-4 System B, G */
{0.299, 0.587, 0.114}, /* SMPTE 170M */
{0.212, 0.701, 0.087}}; /* SMPTE 240M (1987) */

if (argc != 4) {
fprintf(stderr, "usage: rgbtoyuv <r> <g> <b>\n");
exit(-1);
}

r = atoi(argv[1]);
g = atoi(argv[2]);
b = atoi(argv[3]);

i = matrix_coefficients;
cr = coef[i-1][0];
cg = coef[i-1][1];
cb = coef[i-1][2];
cu = 0.5/(1.0-cb);
cv = 0.5/(1.0-cr);

y = cr * r + cg * g + cb * b;
u = cu * (b - y);
v = cv * (r - y);

yi = (219.0 / 256.0) * y + 16.5; /* nominal range: 16..235 */
ui = (224.0 / 256.0) * u + 128.5; /* 16..240 */
vi = (224.0 / 256.0) * v + 128.5; /* 16..240 */

printf("Y = %d, Cb = %d, Cr = %d\n", yi, ui, vi);

return 0;
}


Adding 16.5 or 128.5 meets the nearest integer requirement.

Ron

jvoncolln:

You set it in the slider in video adjustments.

Vern

Personally, I would rather have correct color patterns than incorrect ones, even if the incorrect patterns are from AVIA Pro or DVE Pro.

It would give people more reasons to get this disc! "Look, no errors!" ;)

Well, so far I don't know how to test the raw YCbCr data from the mpeg file that's on the DVD. But if I can figure it out, I will test it. I've asked dr1394 privately to give me a hand with doing that, if he has time. If I can measure the output, pre-converted to RGB, I should be able to cause the encoded file to have the perfect values, even if I have to tweak the input colors by trial and error. But in any event I have to be able to rationalize and effectively prove or provide good arguments that the colors are right.

Otherwise, I will just have to live with the level of accuracy provided on DVE pro ;). DVE, and DVE pro have never (to my knowledge) been considered "off" (until now). Avia (consumer ver) has been widely known to be off. The color patterns I saw on Avia were a mess compared to my DVE Pro. Point is, so far, in my humble opinion, my disc is as accurate as DVE Pro which is apparantly quite acceptable for most. I don't have Avia Pro. If someone would like to loan me their disc to also compare, contact me off-line.

Scott,

I like a multi level checkerboard for setting color and tint. You could vary the levels from about 25 to 100% for each color (white, red, green, blue, magenta, cyan, yellow) in 25% increments. This can help isolate problems with the decoder at different picture levels. It can be pretty illuminating.
Jeff:

Thanks for the input. If I made a color/hue pattern with these 4 levels (25%, 50%, 75%, 100%), which level would one use to make the adjustment? At least for my stuff, I can't change the color decoder so I might not want to "illuminate" any decoder problems :).

Would one just find the setting that does best at the most levels? I have a hard enough time visiually aligning one level. Seems like 4 might be worse. I'll whip something up though. I think I'm going to do something similar to the THX patterns. That is, use Blue-White-Blue and Magenta-Cyan-Magenta colors only for this adjustment.

What might a decoder problem manifest itself as on such a pattern?

Otherwise, I will just have to live with the level of accuracy provided on DVE pro . DVE, and DVE pro have never (to my knowledge) been considered "off" (until now). Avia (consumer ver) has been widely known to be off. The color patterns I saw on Avia were a mess compared to my DVE Pro. Point is, so far, in my humble opinion, my disc is as accurate as DVE Pro which is apparantly quite acceptable for most. I don't have Avia Pro. If someone would like to loan me their disc to also compare, contact me off-line.

That's exactly what I was thinking, unless there is some inherent flaw in this logic. If Scott's patterns level match DVE Pro's, I would think that they are about as good as can be expected. Why would it even be necessary to go through all of the conversions when we can simply compare Scott's end results to DVE Pro's end results? What am I missing here (besides my sanity :p )?

Jeff:

Thanks for the input. If I made a color/hue pattern with these 4 levels (25%, 50%, 75%, 100%), which level would one use to make the adjustment? At least for my stuff, I can't change the color decoder so I might not want to "illuminate" any decoder problems :).

Would one just find the setting that does best at the most levels? I have a hard enough time visiually aligning one level. Seems like 4 might be worse. I'll whip something up though. I think I'm going to do something similar to the THX patterns. That is, use Blue-White-Blue and Magenta-Cyan-Magenta colors only for this adjustment.

What might a decoder problem manifest itself as on such a pattern?

It can point out errors that are dependent on level. When this happens you can use this pattern to detect it and eliminate it or you can choose to set the levels such that the errors are distributed in a less objectionable manner.

This is a level of compexity that few are probably aware of, but I find problems with this more often than you might think. I just thought you might want to include it since I find this useful.

That's exactly what I was thinking, unless there is some inherent flaw in this logic. If Scott's patterns level match DVE Pro's, I would think that they are about as good as can be expected. Why would it even be necessary to go through all of the conversions when we can simply compare Scott's end results to DVE Pro's end results? What am I missing here (besides my sanity :p )?

Good news is I firmly believe mine is line with DVE Pro. Potentially better news is if dr1394 has time to help, maybe I can make it verifiably "perfect". I'm studying a couple possible tools today. The core issue is the encode process when it comes to DVD's. For me, the authoring part (menus, etc.) is a breeze.

Notice:

I've temporarily disabled downloads of the disc while I add and make changes. It's had about 300 unique D/L's since I put it on my website. I don't want the beta copy becoming too widespread.

If you are a contributor in any way and still need a beta version, send me a PM and I'll make it avail as needed.

Thanks, Scott

Will the download be made available again?

Yes. I'm making some of the changes already discussed here. I'm hoping to get some help and find a method to make the YCbCr color values better than DVE Pro while I'm at it. It's got my mark on it, I don't want too many betas out there.

The initial posting was to let some of the regulars have time to get it and download it as described early in the thread.

Best, Scott

This may have been discussed already, but to calibrate your Dynamic Iris projector you need multiple screens with varying Average Picture Level.

So maybe a 100 and 97 and 95 80 and 20 on every screen, but with the background and patch sizes calculated to acheive a known APL.

The lower the APL, the more closed the DI, but since the APL is fixed for that screen you're not stepping on a balloon trying to calibrate.

Just a thought. I've started adding it to my PC based pattern program in case I ever get a DI projector. Ruby and HS60 come to mind.

This wouldn't be as usefull on the Ruby with Xenon lamp, but still you'll want to measure the DI's affect on Grayscale at the extreme APL's.

Ken

Good news is I firmly believe mine is line with DVE Pro. Potentially better news is if dr1394 has time to help, maybe I can make it verifiably "perfect". I'm studying a couple possible tools today. The core issue is the encode process when it comes to DVD's. For me, the authoring part (menus, etc.) is a breeze.
I got your e-mail, but decided to post here in case others are interested. First, an mpeg2decode tutorial. Source code for mpeg2decode is available here:

ftp://ftp.mpegtv.com/pub/mpeg/mssg

If you type mpeg2decode on the command line, you get the following help:

mpeg2decode V1.2a, 96/07/19, (C) 1996, MPEG Software Simulation Group
Usage: mpeg2decode {options}
Options: -b file main bitstream (base or spatial enhancement layer)
-cn file conformance report (n: level)
-e file enhancement layer bitstream (SNR or Data Partitioning)
-f store/display interlaced video in frame format
-g concatenated file format for substitution method (-x)
-in file information & statistics report (n: level)
-l file file name pattern for lower layer sequence
(for spatial scalability)
-on file output format (0:YUV 1:SIF 2:TGA 3:PPM 4:X11 5:X11HiQ)
-q disable warnings to stderr
-r use double precision reference IDCT
-t enable low level tracing to stdout
-u file print user_data to stdio or file
-vn verbose output (n: level)
-x file filename pattern of picture substitution sequence

File patterns: for sequential filenames, "printf" style, e.g. rec%d
or rec%d%c for fieldwise storage
Levels: 0:none 1:sequence 2:picture 3:slice 4:macroblock 5:block

Example: mpeg2decode -b bitstream.mpg -f -r -o0 rec%d

mpeg2decode only works on elementary streams, so you have to demux the .vob file to a video elementary stream. To create a way to navigate, the first step is to decode to a format that you can browse. For Photoshop on a PC, the TGA (Targa) format works fine. The PPM format is for Sun Solaris. The X11 formats are for decoding to a Sun Solaris X11 display.

mpeg2decode -b testdvd.mpv -f -r -o2 testdvd%d

This will create files testdvd0.tga through testdvd3719.tga. Then run mpeg2decode in SIF format.

mpeg2decode -b testdvd.mpv -f -r -o1 testdvd%d

This will create files testdvd0.SIF through testdvd3719.SIF. SIF format is 4:2:2 YCbCr with the byte order being Cb Y Cr Y Cb Y Cr etc. The first byte of the file is the upper left hand corner of the image and the rest of it is in scan order.

testdvd1950.SIF contains a frame of the color bars on white background. With a hex editor (on the PC, I use XVI32 which can be downloaded here http://www.chmaas.handshake.de/delphi/freeware/xvi32/xvi32.htm), open testdvd1950.SIF. Since the color bars are further down in the image, calculate an offset into the file. The middle of the first set of color bars is around line 160, so the file offset will be 160 * 720 * 2 or 230400 or 0x38400. Here's a pic of my Solaris hex dump.

http://img278.imageshack.us/img278/8430/ycbcr4km.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The block of 0x80 0xb4 0x80 (128 180 128) is the white bar. The block of 0x2e 0xa1 0x8d (46 161 141) is the yellow bar. The block of 0x9c 0x83 0x2e (156 131 46) is the cyan bar. The block of 0x4a 0x70 0x3c (74 112 60) is the green bar.

Ron

Ok, since no one else is jumping in, I'll admit being the dummy...What the heck does this all mean? :eek:

Could someone please provide an English to English translation?

Hee, hee... In laymen terms:

Trust me....... don't worry about it, close your eyes for a little while :D:D

The explanation is that with Ron's help, I am looking at the conversion from RGB to digital YCbCr (which is what is on a DVD) at the bit/byte-level in the files. As I said before, I believe my disc is as accurate as DVE pro, and that's been shown to be true a couple different ways now. But it's been pointed out that even the pro-level refererence disc is not "perfect". I am working toward making mine perfect. So if the pattern is supposed to decode to 180,16,16 the by george it *will* decode to 180,16,16, not 180,15,17 like DVE, etc.

Is it nitpicking, maybe. Is it anal, probably :), will it be perfect, I hope so.

By looking at the process at the byte level, I might be able to tackle it. WI\ith Ron's help that is, I couldn't be looking at it without his help to date.

So hang tight, lets see what I can do at the bit level. Hopefully I can get something together over the weekend. Beta #3 in the works.

Other updates:

I have a potential Y/C delay pattern contributed now. It's in PC levels and I have to convert it, but that should nto be too hard.

I have a good idea of a color bar pattern for tint and hue. It will include the different levels as suggested by Jeff. I will follow it with a vanilla smpte style colorbar pattern at 75% and 100% for those used to looking at same.

Still need to come up with something for resolution. No time to work on that till after the color thing.

Cheers,
Scott

dr1394:

Thanks of course for the help there. I had the elementary stream demuxed and the mpeg2decode working, I just wasnt' sure what to do with it's output. I looked at it with a hex editor but didnt' know what I was looking for, now I do. I don't know if I would have ever figured out to go to sif format. Thanks again for that.

Anyway, can you help with my offset understanding. We have 720 pixels wide, and want to look at line 160. So 720*160= 115200. I'm with you there. But why ( * 2 )? Seems like each pixel is made of 4 bytes (Y, Cr, Y, Cb) , why not * 4?

I expect I'm missing something fundamental.

And to confirm, byte order is Y, Cb, Y, Cr right? I was having a hard time picking up the starting point.

Thanks,
Scott

Scott - MY guess is that 4:2:2 color information is actually only 2 bytes (8bits Y, 4 bits each for Cr and Cb). But I'll sit back and enjoy being wrong on this one! :)

But it's been pointed out that even the pro-level refererence disc is not "perfect". I am working toward making mine perfect. So if the pattern is supposed to decode to 180,16,16 the by george it *will* decode to 180,16,16, not 180,15,17 like DVE, etc.

How do you know that the measuring tool (in this case mpeg2decode) is accurate? It seems that we have been through quite a few tools that have turned out to be inaccurate, so what makes this one any better? I know it is decoding on a binary level, but how do we know that the floating point math or such is not fouled up? I mean, the mepeg2decode author could be a raving lunatic who gets his jollies creating a program that misdecodes mpeg video by the smallest amount just to drive people like me nuts. :p

Is it nitpicking, maybe. Is it anal, probably , will it be perfect, I hope so.

I guess it all depends on what you trust the most - the DVE Pro reference disc or the measurement tools (since they disagree).

How do you know that the measuring tool (in this case mpeg2decode) is accurate? It seems that we have been through quite a few tools that have turned out to be inaccurate, so what makes this one any better? I know it is decoding on a binary level, but how do we know that the floating point math or such is not fouled up? I mean, the mepeg2decode author could be a raving lunatic who gets his jollies creating a program that misdecodes mpeg video by the smallest amount just to drive people like me nuts. :p



I guess it all depends on what you trust the most - the DVE Pro reference disc or the measurement tools (since they disagree).
All the tools that have used and found to have been inaccurate were due to their built in assumptions about converting and/or truncating to video levels. The mpeg2decode is open source and the C code dr1394 posted above is from that program. That program is raw and detailed under the hood, my preference for this sort of thing to ensure you can control it's options.

Since these color images aren't moving video (i.e. leaves in the wind) then I don't need a sophisticated compression algorithim, nor a fast one to encode them. I think they more complex the source, the more assumptions they can make on your behalf.

Ideally, what would be done is a frame by frame conversion from RGB to YUV using known good formulas as listed above from the standards. We can all agree those are correct. Now, if I can take those frames and put them into a mpeg stream without any further conversion (since they are native), then the resulting encoded YUV levels should be spot on. That's essentially what I am already doing but I am going to check one of the tools I am using to see if I have any error on the YCbCr conversion stage.

In any event, I'll use the same tools as before to measure the output of the process. I'm not really changng the way I'm dong it, just trying to dial it in perfectly.

I can read bytes. The most comfort is if I can follow a pixel through the whole process. Then you *know* what's going on.

And if I can't not huge deal, I have something that's as close as needed right now.

S

How do you know that the measuring tool (in this case mpeg2decode) is accurate? It seems that we have been through quite a few tools that have turned out to be inaccurate, so what makes this one any better? I know it is decoding on a binary level, but how do we know that the floating point math or such is not fouled up? I mean, the mepeg2decode author could be a raving lunatic who gets his jollies creating a program that misdecodes mpeg video by the smallest amount just to drive people like me nuts. :p

I guess it all depends on what you trust the most - the DVE Pro reference disc or the measurement tools (since they disagree).
mpeg2decode is the granddaddy of software MPEG-2 decoders. Many decoders can directly trace their lineage to mpeg2decode. For example, it's the baseline of SourceForge libmpeg2, which is what VLC uses.

More importantly, mpeg2decode has a reference floating point IDCT that conforms to IEEE1180 (the test suite for IDCT error levels). Along with having the source code available, mpeg2decode is a trusted (or "reference") tool. And as Scott points out, we're looking at color bars which are totally flat (all the YCbCr values are the same) macroblocks. The DCT of a flat block is just one coefficient, the DC term. Almost any IDCT will reconstruct a single DC term correctly.

I've exchanged e-mails with Scott, and we're hot on the trail of fixing the issue.

Ron

Ran across this. I don't understand it well enough to know if it's helpful to anyone in this endeavor, but it looks like it could be:

http://www.ebu.ch/CMSimages/en/tec_doc_t3305-2005_tcm6-37146.pdf

For grayscale and color patterns, is there a reason to use windows instead of full screen colors? Remembering a digital dispaly target (no blooming). Or a reason to not have larger windows.

Window pattern pros I know of:
1) To keep the APL lower when measuring color thus causing less room interaction.
2) To have a window patern to feed a self calibrating scaler (i.e. Lumagen HDP).

Full window pattern pros:
Reduce logistical interference from the display's own menu system graphics

Opinions?

Well, some CRT's cannot sustain high apl settings with the full screen illuminated. They will bloom or suffer other issues.

For calibration purposes, leave it as all the other discs do, windowed patterns. If you have tha space and want to include full screen color patterns for reference, make it a separate chapter.

Vern

Full window patter pro:
Increases APL to help expose primary clipping.

Later,
Bill

Just thinking out loud (sort of)... If my focus is on digital displays, and the only cons of full window patterns are CRT related, I think it might be better to put the CRT stuff in a separate chapter. That is, I want the advantages for digitial displays to come first. But there may be other disadvantages I haven't considered yet.

Thanks guys. Scott

Well, some CRT's cannot sustain high apl settings with the full screen illuminated.

Some thing with plasmas... That's why Jeff suggested windows to me originally.

Increases APL to help expose primary clipping.

No way I can see this happening to any kind of projector with a bulb as a light source.

CRT, plasma yes. DLP, LCOS, SXRD, etc. no.

Of course, I may be missing something.....

Vern

No way I can see this happening to any kind of projector with a bulb as a light source.

CRT, plasma yes. DLP, LCOS, SXRD, etc. no.

Of course, I may be missing something.....

Vern
Vern - This was more of a request for 100% patterns than 75% patterns, but I am working on testing the impacts of fields vs. full-frame measurement. There appears to be some influence that is related to instantaneous CR, but I am not sure yet (not enough measurements, and what I have done could just be bad measurement technique).

Given that I have zero time with plasmas beyond seeing them in airports and offices, I am curious that they cannot sustain full-field patterns. I thought that each cell was individually driven, so it doesn't make sense to me that they all can't be driven at the same time with the same color.

Later,
Bill

It might have to do with Power Supply sagging. Full field 100% on Plasmas runs them at maximum power (just like CRTs), and if the PS is marginal, or poor, then you can get a dimming of the display due to voltage sag - since we're talking about static images, not dynamic ones.

Since I want to use this disk with LCD & DLP type displays, I have no preference one way or the other. Who knows, though, one of these years, I might get a plasma set :eek:.

Jeez, this calibration thing is getting me more and more confused! :D I guess this is why the reason people pay hundreds of dollars to calibrate their TVs from the professionals! haha:P

Right. You should never use full fields for calibrating grayscale or measuring gamma with CRT (front or rear) projectors. CRT projectors quickly run out of beam current for full fields. You need to calibrate/measure CRT projectors with grayscale window patterns. Some fixed-pixel projectors have also been designed to emulate that characteristic of CRT projectors, but most of the time you could get good results calibrating a fixed-pixel projector with full fields. However, it is much more convenient to calibrate grayscale when you have PLUGE stripes on screen while adjusting the bias and gain controls, which you couldn't have with full field patterns. Therefore, we include PLUGE stripes in each of the grayscale windows.So, window patterns it is then.

Edit: Oops I misread his response and see on his webpage he has pluge bars, not graysacle bars. Nevermind. But still, window patterns it is.

Right. You should never use full fields for calibrating grayscale or measuring gamma with CRT (front or rear) projectors. CRT projectors quickly run out of beam current for full fields. You need to calibrate/measure CRT projectors with grayscale window patterns. Some fixed-pixel projectors have also been designed to emulate that characteristic of CRT projectors, but most of the time you could get good results calibrating a fixed-pixel projector with full fields. However, it is much more convenient to calibrate grayscale when you have PLUGE stripes on screen while adjusting the bias and gain controls, which you couldn't have with full field patterns. Therefore, we include PLUGE stripes in each of the grayscale windows. The key value of the gray fields is to measure/check white field color and brightness uniformity. We provide those at 0, 25, 50, 75, and 100 IRE.
Greg - I'm curious for more detail on this one. I understand the power limitations of CRT displays and that taking beam current into account is important, but with digitals, I would guess that there would be a bit of a theoretical issue to solve, namely instantaneous contrast.

When I did some patterns for my own use, I did a quick calculation assuming 50:1 ICR (instantaneous contrast ratio; not to confuse this with specific measures like ANSI CR or your mANSI CR). On an idealized curve, this gave me +/- 20% from the target value before I was requiring more than a 50:1 ICR to hit the desired meaurement target. At digital 235, this meant that my label text needed to be around digital 192.

If I have my measurement target in a window, then this impacts the APL much more than a text label does. For instance, if I have a 5% stimulus background on my 235 window, then my display needs to have a 90:1 ICR, or dynamic range compression happens (I am not sure whether the top end is cut, the bottom end is lifted, or a bit of both happens). Using non-zero black levels and real gamma curves increases this ratio at the top-end dramatically (i.e., it begins to look like the on/off CR). Thus, for a 100% window pattern with a black or below black frame, you are probably not going to get a real 100% measurement as far as my thinking goes.

I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here (probably in the combination of APL and ICR), but any help would be appreciated!

Later,
Bill

Bill, that's interesting. I'm going to have to fire up my LD player and take a look at Joe Kane's "A Video Standard" (designed for CRT calibration). I vaguely remember that he used (50% ?) gray frames on his IRE Test windows.

When I did some patterns for my own use, I did a quick calculation assuming 50:1 ICR (instantaneous contrast ratio; not to confuse this with specific measures like ANSI CR or your mANSI CR). On an idealized curve, this gave me +/- 20% from the target value before I was requiring more than a 50:1 ICR to hit the desired meaurement target. At digital 235, this meant that my label text needed to be around digital 192.
If I have my measurement target in a window, then this impacts the APL much more than a text label does. For instance, if I have a 5% stimulus background on my 235 window, then my display needs to have a 90:1 ICR, or dynamic range compression happens (I am not sure whether the top end is cut, the bottom end is lifted, or a bit of both happens). Using non-zero black levels and real gamma curves increases this ratio at the top-end dramatically (i.e., it begins to look like the on/off CR). Thus, for a 100% window pattern with a black or below black frame, you are probably not going to get a real 100% measurement as far as my thinking goes.


Bill, I'm really busy working on a review that a lot of people seem to be waiting for, so I don't have time to go back and read this thread. Hence, I don't know the context of the previous discussion. My comments that were quoted here from another thread had to do with grayscale window patterns that are used to calibrate grayscale tracking. Can you restate your question? Why are you talking about a background other than black? Why are talking about text labels? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make about contrast ratios?

Greg - Thanks for taking time out to answer a silly question! The gist of it is this:

- Window patterns, definitionally, have a background color that changes the APL from what a full-field pattern would be
- Due to instantaneous contrast (ANSI, mANSI, some other measure) issues, the realized levels as measured using a window pattern may be different than what the display would produce with a full-field pattern.
- This happens if the display's instantaneous contrast is not sufficient to display both the background color and the window color at the correct levels.
- Given the nature of contrast ratios and non-zero black levels, this effect will be more pronounced where there is a larger disparity between the window level and the background level (e.g., a 100% (235) white field on a black (16) or PLUGE background).

The question, I guess, is whether this is a) real, and b) significant?

Thanks!

Bill

This may have been discussed already, but to calibrate your Dynamic Iris projector you need multiple screens with varying Average Picture Level.

So maybe a 100 and 97 and 95 80 and 20 on every screen, but with the background and patch sizes calculated to acheive a known APL.

The lower the APL, the more closed the DI, but since the APL is fixed for that screen you're not stepping on a balloon trying to calibrate.

Just a thought. I've started adding it to my PC based pattern program in case I ever get a DI projector. Ruby and HS60 come to mind.

This wouldn't be as usefull on the Ruby with Xenon lamp, but still you'll want to measure the DI's affect on Grayscale at the extreme APL's.

KenI get the gist of what you are suggesting, but not having a DI unit, I'm not sure how much adjustablility they have. Surely you don't set the grayscale and a bunch of APL (and thus DI) settings.

I could make a series of gray patterns each with a different APL, but that many patters (i.e. 0-100 with 10APL, 0-100 with 20 APL,....0-100 with 100 APL, etc). Of course I can't make a 100% pattern window with less that 50% apl if the window pattern covers 50% but you see my point.

And all of this would be moot unless the grayscale can be adjusted independently depending on the APL/DI position. What a collosal PITA that would be to tweak.

On the other hand I suppose one could have a smallish grayscale centerned in varying a background to acheive differnet APL's to attempt to see how the unit is affecting the colros at different settings. Dunno.

I'll set this one aside for now unless someone has a very specific need for a set of defined patterns then I'll add them.

Unless I misunderstood....?

Greg - Thanks for taking time out to answer a silly question! The gist of it is this:

- Window patterns, definitionally, have a background color that changes the APL from what a full-field pattern would be
- Due to instantaneous contrast (ANSI, mANSI, some other measure) issues, the realized levels as measured using a window pattern may be different than what the display would produce with a full-field pattern.
- This happens if the display's instantaneous contrast is not sufficient to display both the background color and the window color at the correct levels.
- Given the nature of contrast ratios and non-zero black levels, this effect will be more pronounced where there is a larger disparity between the window level and the background level (e.g., a 100% (235) white field on a black (16) or PLUGE background).

The question, I guess, is whether this is a) real, and b) significant?

Thanks!

Bill
A window pattern provides the best results (even on a non-CRT projector) because it eliminates the effect of the image area surrounding the measurement position on the image. There are color and magnitude effects on the measurement due to light scatter, etc in the projector, but there are also significant room reflection issues as well. The latter can be made negligible by measurement technique. It doesn't matter what contrast effects occur in the black area surrounding the window because we normally aren't measuring that.

I don't know if this is feasible, but I was wondering about a pattern that could help those with 2.35 Constant hight setups using an anamorphic lens. I have a 4805 and a Prismasonic H-600M. I put on Halo 2 over xbox set to widescreen. Now even though Halo2 is not 2.35, when playing 2 player mode, I noticed that one side of the screen was stretched more than the other. So if there was a pattern that I could use to make sure my lens is correctly stretching, that would be great.

I alraedy have that, sort of. And I put it there for me for the same reason (Anamorphic lens). It's a "alignment/overcan" pattern with two horizontal lines showing where the letterbox stretched image should be when the image is scaled and the top/bottom are electronically cropped off. Or if one zoomed to optically mask/crop too. This frame marks the spot for your 2.35 image. I need to fix it up a little though to allow for some overscan and still be able to see the letterbox frame area, plus I need to find the exact lines (inclusive) where the edges of the 2.35 image should be. Anyone happen to know what lines those are to save me the time?


Scott

AWESOME! this disk sounds so sweet. Put me down for it. Let me know when it's ready:)

Update:

1) I have a new color and tint pattern ready. It is similar to the THX optimizer in that it uses only the Blue/White and Magenta/Cyan pairs that one would use with a blue filter for adjusting Color and Tint respectively. This patterns has static, animated, small, and text based patterns on one screen. I think it will work well. I am also working on a version of 75% colorbars (all 6 pr/sec colors) to follow sequentially then wrap it up with the ubiquitous SMPTE style colorbar pattern. If I can fit it in and it looks OK, the 2nd of that set will have 25%, 50%, 75% and 100% barsets. The primary (first pattern) will be 75%, and SMPTE at 75%. I'll probably do a 100% SMPTE style colorbar in the extra/advanced patterns, or just tack it on after 75%. My goal is to meet the needs and preferences of as many folks as I can while keeping pattens to a minimum.

2) I've been working hard behind the scenes with dr1394 and several other experts on the color accuracy issue. Being the natural sceptic, I looked into the right formulas and have cooberated the formulas presented by dr1394 with several sources including the Rec 601 standards, a well known and respected test pattern generator manufacturer/designer, high end mpeg encoder manuals, authors and contributors to books on the subject (e.g. Video Demystified), and if that wasn't enough, I even found a Microsoft document that agreed. I have to say without going into details that the person who brought the issue up in the first place has impressive credentials as well.

So all of that led me to trust the RGB to YCbCr calculations for 16-235 Studio/video levels and their accuracy. With the assistance dr1394 and several other experts I almost have a complete toolset to make as perfect as possible conversions between RGB and YCbCr, and finally to mpeg2 format 4:2:0 data. I believe my colors will be more accurate than *anything* else out there. Even before they were very, very close, but now even better. I have one hurdle left there but do not expect it to to a big one. I'll keep you posted but this particular item is looking very good.

3) Resolution - nothing yet. May have to let this go for next version..

4) Y/C delay. dr1394 contributed a nice Y/C delay pattern.

Thanks for eveyone's interest and input. More is welcome.

Cheers, Scott

Color/Tint adjustment pattern (reduced image, one frame of animation):

Nice! Keep up the good work! :)

Would it be possible for us to get a limited release look at the new version? I, for one, am curious....

Sorta like your previous limited release.....

Vern

AWESOME! this disk sounds so sweet. Put me down for it. Let me know when it's ready:)

Me also!

Vern:

Yes, definately. But I don't have it assembled yet. I'm working on getting that last RGB to YUV transform working just right, then I have to reconvert all the patterns, reencode, reauthor, etc.

With dr1394's help I'm working practically at the hex level to create the colored patterns so they will be as accurate as the YCbCr on DVD allows (damn near perfect, and better than anything else).

Anyway, as soon as I reassemble I'll let another out for input. I'm out of town this weekend though, it will be sometime, hope early, next week before I have one ready enough to let out.

Scott

Anyway you could put together a lip-synch pattern?
Blinking square w/ sound clicking in and out or something.

Good idea. Any caveats anyone? Anoyone have a good test platform for the pattern?

Good idea. Any caveats anyone? Anyone have a good test platform for the pattern?It's another verification problem. Worse yet, there's no "reference" decoder. That is, A/V sync on all decoders is suspect.

So you have to verify at the MPEG-2 bitstream level. This involves checking the video and audio timestamps and verifying that they are indicating the correct A/V sync. In other words, you have to verify the encoder.

In MPEG-2 lingo, the timestamps are called the PTS (Presentation Time Stamp) and DTS (Decode Time Stamp). For A/V sync purposes, we're only interested in the PTS.

So you have to dump the PTS's for both audio and video and then see if the PTS of the video frame with the "blink" correlates to the PTS of the first audio sample of the "pop". Matters are complicated by the fact that you only get an audio PTS for the start of an MP2 or AC3 frame and the first sample of the "pop" is typically part way into the audio frame.

The tool I use to correlate audio samples is GoldWave and it's ability to zoom the timeline.

Here's the steps:

1) Demux the MPEG-2 Program or Transport Stream. Have the demuxer dump the PTS's of each stream.

2) Find the first video frame with a "blink". Calculate it's PTS. If the PTS increment is fixed (3003 for each NTSC video frame), you can just use the PTS of the first video frame + 3003 * the number (starting at zero) of the frame with the "blink". Otherwise, you should use the actual PTS for that frame.

3) Load the audio bitstream into GoldWave. See if the "pop" appears at the correct time. Again, if the audio PTS increment is fixed (for example, AC3 frames are always 1536 samples, which is 32 milliseconds per frame at 48 kHz or a PTS increment of 2880), you can calculate from the first PTS of the audio stream. Otherwise, you should use the PTS of the nearest audio frame and calculate from there.

Ron

Yikes, that got complicated fast :). But I'm with you on it. I might be able to do it. I had envisioned an animated bouncing ball pattern. When it hits it beeps. Reminiscent of the old pong game, only simpler, up and down or (left and right) bouncing against a line within the video frame safe title area. I thought that would help with the human interface, to take some of the reflex time out of it. I suppose it would be good to have 2 channel, ACS (dolby) and DTS audio streams.

The trouble I've run into is getting these muxed together and synced. Seems the multiplexing operation (i.e. mpv + ac3 = VOB) has introduced delays in past projects. In particular with DTS. I'll see what I can come up with.

Scott,

You better make this disc a subscription service or we'll never see it :)

Can't wait to get a copy!

Anyone figured out a way to know if your PC/Player is putting out the perfect values from the disc?

Ken

Vern has some secret sauce for TheaterTek, but CE DVD players may just have to go on faith!

Download MWSnap3 from the internet. It hs a color picker that reveals the RGB values of the pixel you select You cannot be using overlay mixer fot this to work, it requires VMRx.

Vern

Why is this thread getting drowned? I mean this is a terrific post! Mod, you should make this sticky. :D

It's alive, I just have everyone in a holding pattern waiting on me.

Update:

Color tools used for creating color patterns are complete. This, thanks to the help by dr1394, an mpeg guru. What does this mean? Well it means my colors are now dead on perfect at the digital YCbCr 4:2:0 encoding that is on the DVD. As perfect as it can get with 24 bit RGB and DVD. I have verified it with DVE Pro, and with my new tools, looking the the mpeg streams at the hex level my colors are dead on with DVE Pro except for one color. And in that color, mine is one click better. Can't ask for better than that.

So when's the next beta version to pop out? Quick as I can do all the stuff and assemble it. I have a couple pattens to add and change to the next version. May be able to wrap thos up this weekend. I have some more for future versions, but I'm going to go on and get the basics rolling.

Upcoming:
Same disc as before but absolute correct colors
Backgrounds changed to below black on some patterns
New color/tint patttern
Changing general color bar pattern (I decided mine was too close to DVE's and I don't any copy issues. even though it's a pretty simple pattern). This pattern is not done yet.
Some advanced patterns
- YC delay - done
- frequency bursts to test resolution - done (contributed dr1394)
- multi-pattern - same pattern used on the HQV test disc, I got official permission from the origina author to use it.

Future version:

For those with a OpticOne or Progressive Labs setup; Cliff suggested I add the requisite automation tones to the grayscale sequence. I'll give this a try but it will be in the advanced section since this set of patterns will auto advance with a signal tone for automation with the CA-6X. This allows automatic grayscale measurment runs.

Lipsync pattern if I can do the nitty gritty tests to ensure the encoding is right.

Once I get all that going and I'll see if I can't do PAL.

Stay tuned...

Download MWSnap3 from the internet. It hs a color picker that reveals the RGB values of the pixel you select You cannot be using overlay mixer fot this to work, it requires VMRx.

Vern
Vern - Actually I was talking about the settings necessary to get TT to be truly color neutral. ColorCop also works as a color sniffer. :)

Later,
Bill

Good work

GetGray,

What most of us (in PAL land) are looking for is a PAL disk just like this. DVE PAL is the only game in town these days.

Any chance a PAL version (720x576/50HZ) is also in the works?

BTW, are you going to publically offer an ISO of the disk or will it eventually be for sale?

check

http://www.peterfinzel.de/

complete with bluefilter

I have the PF disk and it's great for ISF calibration. Much better than DVE IMHO and far easier to navigate - and that includes the fact it's in German!

Gary

I have the PF disk and it's great for ISF calibration. Much better than DVE IMHO and far easier to navigate - and that includes the fact it's in German!
This is a sad, sad commentary! And completely believable! :)

Ursa,

See what I mean?

I can't read german, but i saw the words "False Contour" in the description of the PF-Test disc - anyone know what that is? That would be awesome to have in a DLP calibration disc!

...I have the PF disk and it's great for ISF calibration. Much better than DVE IMHO and far easier to navigate - and that includes the fact it's in German!So don't worry about a PAL version of mine then?

I think your disk is going to be even better, so please don't rule out PAL users! :)

It's just that I find it much quicker and easier to use than DVE. I would think someone who is familiar with DVE will have no trouble using it though, but for someone that doesn't use it that often PF was far easier to understand and navigate through.

Gary.

GetGray,

On the contrary, we desparately need something better than we currently have access to...

Hi guys:

Just another update. I'm whittling away at it. Got a good bit done this weekend. Lots of little details.

I get a lot of PM's wanting to see what's on it. So I made a simpler way to show the patterns to non beta testers without letting any wrong or in-progress patterns out in the wild (via Beta discs). Here's a link:
LINK TO PATTERNS:
http://www.calibrate.tv/beta3.html (Can't believe that domain name was available)

I fixed the antique background pattern to "fit" 16x9 and the circles will now be round not oval (I had to take a little poetic license with the original image to make it be a 16x9 pattern, or mostly).

All primary color ramps are complete.

Modified the overscan pattern.

Tweaked levels here and there.

I have a decent audio program (Adobe Audition). It came with my video editing package and I haven't a clue how to use it though <big smile> so it may be a little while before I can get it to do tones (for the automated grayscale and the lipsymc patterns). But I should be able to run that to ground with some work.

Once I get the disc actually authored, I'll send out some links to the Beta testers for a real disc. My animated patterns are literally build one frame at a time and assembled in order to produce the patterns so it will be a little while yet before I convert each frame to YCbCr before encoding and authoring the DVD. I'd never have made it as a cartoonist :).

If you are interested in the disc, and are a regular AVSer and have something to contribute, let me know and I'll add you to the beta list. If you are just a "regular" user interested in the disc, please be patient and check out the links to see what patterns are on the disc.

Input from anyone is welcome.

Ofer, I did not forget about your brightness pattern, but I haven't decided whether or not to use it on the "main" disc due to the copyrights.

Anyone have an opinion if I should include the Belle Nuit general test pattern shown on my site above? It's a general use pattern. I have official permission to use it. It was on the HQV test disc. I don't know that I'd personally use it and I want to keep my disc as "lean" and practical as possible with "just the basics" that one would use to tuneup their own stuff.

I'm leaning towards no, don't use it, but thought I'd ask...

S

Anyone have an opinion if I should include the Belle Nuit general test pattern shown on my site above? It's a general use pattern. I have official permission to use it. It was on the HQV test disc. I don't know that I'd personally use it and I want to keep my disc as "lean" and practical as possible with "just the basics" that one would use to tuneup their own stuff.

I'm leaning towards no, don't use it, but thought I'd ask...

S

While I'd personally use individual patterns for calibration in practice, it would be nice to have a general test chart to see the effects of a calibration session on one screen. Given this, and if included, I'd put it towards the end, or off on its own so people don't try to use it for calibrations. It's a fine looking pattern. I'd include it if it had a good place without it looking like it was shoe horned in somewhere just to get it in. I wouldn't be disappointed if it wasn't included though, your disk will be an incredible contribution to the group.

Scott,
I have the HQV disk, so the Belle Nuit test pattern isn't that important to me. I agree with jvoncolln that it it's inclusion would be nice, for the sake of completeness, but not necessary.

The Mulit-Level color-bar patterns that you're working on would be much more inportant to me. I'm anxiously awaiting for the next release. Your Beta3 teaser is looking good.

I really appreciate your "KISS" approach that is accurate, it's a calibration tool that I can really use. I'm in contact with another AVS member that might be interested in your "Official" release too.

I am presently using a Mits HC3 as a backup PJ and using your Beta2, I got much better gray scale settings (significantly different settings) than I got with either AVIA or DVE (non-Pro versions).

Definitely keep the Belle Nuit test pattern. It's an excellent confirmation pattern after calibration.

Vern

OK, BelleNuit stays. Thanks for the input.

I've been working to develop a concise oraganizational structure for the disc. It's easy for it to get out of hand as the other commercial discs have demonstrated.

Add to that a button limitation of 18 on a 16x9 DVD menu (per the DVD spec) and it's even more difficult to fit exactly what you want in your menus.

I don't like the current menu structure/arrangement much, and I've developed a new one. Getting it to loop and repeat (or not) where I want involves creating mutiple titles which each have multiple chapters and controlling all that through the authoring process. I will continue to make this transparent to the user and a hopefully logical and intuitave flow. The new arrangment only has one level 2 menu (main->sub->sub) which is keeping in the KISS plan pretty close.

My current menu structure plan in attached. I think it will be easier to follow opened out of the forum window so I attached as a txt file. Comments welcome and appreciated.

Link to same file: http://www.calibrate.tv/caldiscmenu_v31.txt

Can't download the attachment...

Can't download the attachment...It's something funky about the forum's software, not the file. It always happens to me if I click on the attachments.

I right click then save-as, that will open it. Since this is nothing new to me either, I'll report the post to David, maybe he knows why.

Well, you need to get this thing up and ready for download. If most people (like myself) plan on sending you a "donation" for all of your hard work, you'll be able to go buy some new toys. ;)

Definitely looking forward to it.

Have instuctions been added so people know what to do with the various calibration screens?

re: instructions, Nope, pattern work first. Without tools (colorimeter of some sort) many patterns on the disc won't be of much use. My point being is there isn't much to write in the way of instructions for solid color/gray window patterns.

On the other hand, this disc will be perfect for fundamental adjustments of brightness, contrast and color/tint, Y/C delay. I'll come up with some basic instructions on those.

The instructions for the other patterns would really be from/for the particular calibration device one was using. In order of cost (approx/I think)

ursa/Bills SpidyMAN/SpyderTV software
umr/Jeff's Accucal i1 Pro software/device
ghbliss/Cliff Plavin www.progressivelabs.net CA-6X/OpticOne
Colorfacts
Sencore

How far out is a working version of this calibration disc that we forum members can purchase? I have a new DLP arriving soon that will surely need some help. But probably not nears as much help as I'll need.

Probably about a week, maybe by the weekend or Mon. May set lipsync pattern aside for now to hurry it up. It's problematic.

Good deal. I'm pretty certain I/we can wait that long. I myself won't even have a good use for it until next weekend anyway. In your opinion will your system be as good as the mass marketed systems? Dumb question huh.... from what li lI read of this thread it should be better, right? What about ease of use, can an idiot such as myself make this work?

Those questions are all covered in this thread. :)

Those questions are all covered in this thread. :)

I knew the answers were here as I've read all of the posts. However I've also read everything on Toshiba DLPs (2 threads), threads on speakers, receivers and DVD players. As a newbie into the HDTV theater world it's hard for someone to remember it all especially in the few weeks I've been here. I was hoing for a quick refresher, that's all.

Maybe I should take a minute and try to clarify whats "better" about it for those not familiar with these. I think this has been mentioned here one way or another spread out in posts, but I'll take a shot at summarizing.

Many of us use several commercial discs to do our display calibrations and tuning. The most popular are Avia, Digital Video Essentials (DVE) and Sound and Vision home theater tuneup (or something close to that name). Those are the affordable consumer level calibration discs. They are packed with patterns, most of which regular folks would never use. Many patterns will do tests to reveal shortcomings of a display, but in many cases there is nothing you could do about the shortcoming once it is known (IMO).

For the patterns that are popular on these discs, the experienced folks often find themselves having to switch discs to get to the fundamental, or regular often used patterns they prefer. For example, Avia (consumer version) is known to have slight color errors. DVE is difficult to navigate if you are not familiar with direct chapter and title selection on your DVD player (if it will do it at all).

The main solution to this has been to purchase very, very, VERY, expensive "pro" level calibration disc sets such as Avia-Pro and DVE-Pro. This is not an attractive option, even for those who have test gear/colorimeters, if it can be avoided. But even these pro level discs are loaded with patterns and can be more difficult to navigate.

One good thing in defense of the consumer discs is they come with at least 3 things my disc does not have.

1) spiffy little video segments explaining ow to use a particular pattern. These videos are just "in the way" once you've seen them and are something to navigate around once you know how. Some of the videos are as simple as how to hook up your equipment. My disc is not meant to address any such needs as a dummies guide to home theater.

2) Audio calibration sections. My disc does not have, nor is it likely to ever have an audio calibration section. I use an inexpensive commercial disc dedicated to audio for this task (http://www.rivesaudio.com/software/TestCD.html) . This is also a more advanced disc probably, but is better than what's on the commercial discs (IMO) and made to interface with the Radio Shack SPL, adjusted specifically to that inexpensive instruments behavior.

3) A blue filter. Both Avia and DVE will come with at least a blue filter. You need one of these to adjust color and tint. So what do I recommend? Easy, go to www.thx.com, look under Optimizer, and order a pair of THX optimizer glasses. They are $2.00. They are a 3-D cardboard type pair of glasses with the requisite blue filter. And they are easier to use than holding up a piece of raw film which is included in the consumer disc packages. Order yours now if you plan to use my disc and don't already have the film. One can also buy a more accurate Kodak optical blue filter, I forget the exact part number, I need to look it up. I always thought it would be cool to order 2 of those filters, take them to Lenscrafters and have a pair of "real blue" glasses made. Have to look into that, but I digress...

OK, so there you have what's wrong with the consumer discs, and what mine does not have that they do.

My disc is designed to provide the FUNDAMENTAL patterns used to adjust or tune a display. Some of the patterns are usable by anyone without special equipment. Some of those patterns are better IMO:
- superior contrast and brightness patterns (IMHO)
- color and tint patterns
- basic alignment patterns
- Y/C delay

The disc also have the patterns one needs to use WITH special equipment mentioned previously in the thread. These include:
- grayscale calibration window patterns
- color window patterns

This disc is meant to put ONLY the fundamental video patterns that would be used by someone using a colorimeter (like me) in one place and with spot on color accurate patterns. I've gone to great lengths to get help to ensure my color patterns are at least identical to the pro level discs, these patterns are created and verfied literally at the binary level in YCbCr (digital YUV which is what's on a DVD). In in a few tests mine were one digital level better than one of the pro level discs. My disc is meant to be quick and easy to navigate, designed to function in a work-flow arrangement, and make pattern navigation and availability quick and easy. So in that respect it is a better disc than the other options for what it's designed for.

* Will the disc have the fundamental patterns a novice or someone without a colorimeter can use? Absolutely, especially for brightness and contrast patterns which are the fundamental display adjustments. Are they better, I think so.

* Will it have a cute hand holding video in front of the patterns explaining what each pattern is and how to use it, no, it will not. Will I be available to explain same, no, I will not.

* Will it have instructions at all? Probably, but abbreviated, just the basics. If anyone submits any documentation for a particular pattern, set of patterns, or method, I'll be happy to review, turn into a pdf or text file and add to the disc. But I probably wont' have time to do much in that regard, at least not soon.

* Can someone (novice) figure out how on their own? Sure, first place to start might be at the consumer disc's websites where there is a wealth of information explaining how to use the basic patterns. Then asking questions on forums like AVS will get you the help you need for adjusting contrast, brightness. But to encourage anyone, I think my disc is a accceptable solution to anyone needing a basic calibration disc. It does not have any hand holding, but this is not rocket science anyway. Depends on how technically adept one is I suppose. By reading the suggestions above, and poking around with google one can easily find a wealth of information on using the fundamental patterns.

But if you sent me a PM and said "...I want to beta test your disc. I will stick it in my DVD player and have it calibrate my TV. I'll let you know if it worked....", then this disc isn't what you are looking for. If you said that, you need to hire someone :). This is not a magical disc that calibrates anything. It has patterns you use to make adjustments to a display to get it set properly. Fundamental (basic) adjustments do not require a colorimeter (brightness, contrast, color/tint, Y/C delay), other adjustments can be done by experienced eye (sort of) but are best done with a colorimeter of some sort (gray scale, primary colors). Even without a meter, one can ascertain the quality of the devices grayscale by viewing the gray ramps so even that advanced pattern has value for a novice.

So, I hope that helps and will cut down on some of the very new to it PM's like the one above. This describes briefly what's better about mine. And maybe I can reference this post for those who don't understand what this is and is not.

Experienced guys feel free to elaborate or correct me.

Cheers,
Scott

This describes briefly what's better about mine. And maybe I can reference this post for those who don't understand what this is and is not.

Experienced guys feel free to elaborate or correct me.

Cheers,
Scott

Thanks, That info is EXACTLY all I wanted. And yes, most folks will do good to be referred to this reply you've posted. I look fwd to seeing your work.

I have both consumer Avia and DVE discs and the filters. I am a pretty technologically oriented guy, and I ABSOLUTELY HATE THOSE DISCS! A simple PDF with brief instructions for every pattern would be perfect.

rbbnet: I'm glad the summary was helpful. It wasn't directed at you per se, but more to the tons of PM's I get from nice folks that don't really understand what it is, they just want one. That's a good thing I suppose :).

I have both consumer Avia and DVE discs and the filters. I am a pretty technologically oriented guy, and I ABSOLUTELY HATE THOSE DISCS! A simple PDF with brief instructions for every pattern would be perfect.
Gotch'a. It will have at least a basic readme file abou the patterns and their use or targt use for sure. But that likely last.

Scott,

I'm a retired EE (Physics Degree) and have done quite a bit of technical writing (manual, specifications, proposals, etc.) before I retired.

If you would like me to take a stab at doing a brief set of instructions, I would be happy to help - I have your Beta2 files, and have downloaded your caldiscmenu_V3.1. I can convert the instructions to pdf when done.

PS -- I have the AVIA, DVE, & HQV consumer DVDs.

Claus: I would be grateful for any contributions in the documantation department. All my hobbies seem to turn into jobs and poof, there goes all my free time. So capable lending hands are welcome. Only big requirement is it's original material so I don't violate anyones copyrights when released. Thanks :)

Ok, I'll get right on it. I plan to send you a draft by Saturday (or earlier, if possible). It will be my own interpretation.

I am quite busy right now, so I can't lend my help so much in writing such a thing, but I certainly would be willing to read it and lend my comments, because I know that thorough explanations of pattern use on many displays can be pretty complex and daunting. I'd be happy to help!

Ok, I'll get right on it. I plan to send you a draft by Saturday (or earlier, if possible). It will be my own interpretation.Cool. Not too fast though, you'll make me look bad (slow) :).

I am quite busy right now, so I can't lend my help so much in writing such a thing, but I certainly would be willing to read it and lend my comments, because I know that thorough explanations of pattern use on many displays can be pretty complex and daunting. I'd be happy to help!Thanks Chris, your input is extremely welcome.

Ok Chris, I'll send you a draft copy too. I'm going to try to maintain the KISS approach for the less experienced user, since the more experienced won't really need it.

I do want it to be technically accurate and I'm not as experienced as you are (I cut my projection calibration teeth on Joe Kane's original "A Video Standard" laserdisc). I may have to re-read your "Source Settings Guide" before I finish though.

Sorry, I'm running behind schedule - my "honey-do" list got in the way.

Thanks Claus, I was out of town this past weekend myself. It's trick or treat with the kids tonight and I'm going to the Projector shootout/demo in CO this coming weekend, so what's left of my week won't afford much time on the disc :(. But some good news I have made some progress on the lipsync pattern, so maybe I can fit it in.

CO as in Colorado? Where?

CO as in Colorado? Where?
Yes, Colorado Springs:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=589990

Where exactly is mid south> How far to Co. Springs?

Vern

Where exactly is mid south> How far to Co. Springs?Tennessee, several hours via Chicago by plane to Denver then an hour more as I understand it to CS.

Still patiently waiting..... ho hum. Got my Toshiba 52HMX95 half heartedly set up and need a cal disc to finish her off. I'm suffering from a touch of black crush, red push and general yet minor color adjustments. I also didn't know just how bad the A/V sync issue could be on these DLP sets. Almost as bad as watching a late 70's karate flic at 2AM on a 3rd rate TV station. But I do sorta miss those days. I'm expecting my HK 335 receiver to arrive this week to fix the A/V sync issues. Truthfully I can wait for the cal disc to be ready as perfection always beats near-perfection. I do suppose perfection is what you're aiming for, right GETGRAY? Not to mention the inclusion of some type of help file is definitely worth some wait.

Multilevel colorbars complete:

Dumb question, or lets say a learning question. The image you attached, multilevelcolorbar, is that the real image size 432 x 240 pixels? For us with the SD slot could we simply load pics of that nature on a SD card, insert it and tweak settings from the jpeg viewer?

No. I resized it just so someone would not make that mistake. The patterns are designed for DVD encoding, the image is just to give a general idea of what the pattern looks like. A jpeg viewer is more likely PC based and these patterns aren't the right ones to use for pure 0-255 RGB (PC levels). They are designed for video levels and digital YCbCr that comes from a DVD.

rbbnet -- You really should buy the AVIA "Guide to Home Theater" DVD, if you haven't already. You will still need it to explain the ins and outs of PJ calibration. The DVD that GetGray is working on will not be a substitute for teaching you the details of calibration.

Luckily I have a good buddy who is in the know on calibration and has done it many times. He also has an old copy of either Avia or DVE and was just yesterday explaining the use of the filters and such. Truthfully I've spent very lil time with my new HDTV. It's not even set-up all the way yet. My DVD player hasn't arrived nor has my sub. My Harman Kardon 335 receiver came in yesterday.... DOA, gotta love that. Now I've got to see how returns/exchange/repair will go on it.

Any new news?

Some would say no news is good news, but in this instance... no news is killing me. :)

Sorry guys, I went to John Schuermann's Projector Expo this past weekend in CO. Was a 4 day fun/business trip. I tried to get it ready before the Expo but didn't make it. I have all patterns and sequences done with the exception of some touchup on a couple and to finish the syncing of teh audio to the lipsync animated pattern (pattern is done).

I'll have another beta ready probably this week to get input on menu architecture and general program flow.

We had to use someone's copy of DVE this weekend. I forgot how much I hate it's navigation and I even know how to use it! I D/L'd Demo version 2 from my website onto a USB flash drive and used my discs patterns instead on Sunday. Guess what, the person operating the HTPC didn't need any instructions on how to find the patterns as I asked for them and took measurments with my light meter. Imagine that, easy navigation :D

HEHE

I use my customers as the player remote control as well since I already have my hands full with the projector remote!. AVIA PRO is very simple menu structure as well the only problem they have is my scatter brained method of calibration.

Not too late to add a menu item:

KRAS SBM Sequence

:D

FYI, I am adding a ANSI pattern of an inverted ANSI 4x4 checkerboard pattern (to compliment the non-inverted same pattern) so that one may use Greg Rogers method of calculationg CR. Since Greg's reviews are highly respected this would enable one to make measurments at least using the same procedure Greg uses. Specifically GR's *modified* method is:

I measure the individual CR (white/black) of the center 4 blocks of a 4x4 checkerboard pattern (and an inverted checkerboard pattern) and then average the 4 CR measurements (there is usually little difference in those 4 blocks). The ANSI CR measures each of the 16 blocks once (8 black, 8 white) and then averages the blacks and whites to compute the contrast ratio. The main difference is that the outer blocks have a higher contrast ratio than the center blocks because the outer black blocks are not completely surrounded by white blocks. There is no exact conversion between the two methods because light scatter in the outer blocks is subject to unpredictable effects near the panel edges, sides of the lens, etc. But if the light scatter were completely uniform, the ANSI CR would be about 1.42 x my modified ANSI CR.

So Claus if you're still thinking of writing up instructions, you might want to add that blurb once you see the pattern layout.

Thanks. I'm still working on it. I may need some help with test pattern description. I'll put in blanks where I'm not sure what to say. I hope to get the first draft completed by this weekend. Getting an updated beta will help, as I'm guessing form the data you've provided so far.

Calus: Thanks, I understand and I'll get you to one ASAP

Everyone:

I'm fretting a little over whether or not to keep the "quick sequence" which is essentially the original Beta disc with the fundamental patterns that happen to match the sequence used with the Accucal software...

OR

Not having a "quick sequence" and just having the core patterns by category that anyone could select as they need them.

Instead of having an uninterrupted "quick" sequence of ramp, contrast, brightness, color bar, color window, gray window, etc.

One would instead have to use:
color->bars (sequence)
color->windows (sequence)
brightness/contrast (looping sequence)
gray patterns-> gray window x10 (sequence)
etc.

While the "quick sequence" seemed like a good idea when I did it, I am finding I rarely use it and wan to go directly to my desired pattern. I'm starting to think the "quick sequence" may be redundant and not used much.

Comments, opinions?

Scott,

I'm a retired EE (Physics Degree) and have done quite a bit of technical writing (manual, specifications, proposals, etc.) before I retired.

If you would like me to take a stab at doing a brief set of instructions, I would be happy to help - I have your Beta2 files, and have downloaded your caldiscmenu_V3.1. I can convert the instructions to pdf when done.

PS -- I have the AVIA, DVE, & HQV consumer DVDs.

Just a suggestion... converting to pdf is great. but provide the instructions in an editable format as well... ".doc". etc so someone can edit /add tweaks as found... notes, etc.

(In other words provide the instructions in the pdf format AND in a format that can be EDITED later on.)

While the "quick sequence" seemed like a good idea when I did it, I am finding I rarely use it and wan to go directly to my desired pattern. I'm starting to think the "quick sequence" may be redundant and not used much.

Well, obviously I am in favor of the quick sequence, as that is the sequence I will be using 95% of the time, but it is your disc and your call. Even if you discard the sequence, the navigation will still be better than most any disc, and I still have the beta disc with the sequence on it.

Well, obviously I am in favor of the quick sequence, as that is the sequence I will be using 95% of the time, but it is your disc and your call. Even if you discard the sequence, the navigation will still be better than most any disc, and I still have the beta disc with the sequence on it.Worst case I'll be sure you have a "good color" version with the Quick Sequence. It was you who got me into this after all :D.

Since the menus are all done and most of the work of hooking it all up, assigning buttons, determining looping behaviors, etc is complete, the next beta will have the Quick Sequence for sure. That'll give some testers and you some more feel for it so we can tweak and improve if need be.

I have a few navigation errors to clear and some spots to loop that I missed and Beta 4 is ready. I'm going to work on the lipsync pattern's audio track after Beta4.

One of the things Cliff Plavin does when doing calibrations and what I do as well usually is rock back and forth between a low and high IRE (sorry Bill, I mean percent stimulus ;)) pattern. For example a 30% and a 80%. As one rocks back and forth you can adjust the individual RGB gain and bias to flatten the grayscale at those points. No matter the colorimeter device, that might be helpful to get the settings in the ballpark, assuming there dosen't happen to be some odd spike at 30 or 80. Then start full grayscale runs.

So maybe a pair of "rocking" sequences:
30%-80% gray looping
20%-90% gray looping

These sequences would simply loop (via the next button) around and around until menu is selected. This woudl make bouncing back and forth a lot simpler.

Both under the "gray patterns" menu.

Input, comments welcome as always...

Scott

Good call on the "rocking" 30-80 stim for gray scale. I spend most time rocking there, but have been known to rock-out a bit in the brightness / contrast arena as well :)

Good call on the "rocking" 30-80 stim for gray scale. I spend most time rocking there, but have been known to rock-out a bit in the brightness / contrast arena as well :)Well, you'll be happy to know the brightness/contrast section is already rocking :D. Separate button for Grayscale-Brightness-Contrast-High APL dual bright/contrast sequence.

So maybe a pair of "rocking" sequences:
30%-80% gray looping
20%-90% gray looping

These sequences would simply loop (via the next button) around and around until menu is selected. This woudl make bouncing back and forth a lot simpler.

I agree, too. For us lazy types (me!), a one button push to go back and forth would be very handy!

I agree, too. For us lazy types That's what this puppy is all about. Takin' care of us old lazy guys, everything inone easy to access place, yeah baby.

Scott,

If you want to, you can email me a copy (I've enabled email contact in my profile).

An option (since the content doesn't fill a DVD) would be to provide the original "quick sequence" like Bob wants, as a separate menu item. That way we can have the best of both worlds.

WeAreNotAlone69 -- How Scott wants to put the instructions in the DVD files, is up to him. I will provide both versions to him. The original that I'm working on, is in the Microsoft Word 2000 ".doc" format. I would prefer to use the more universal ".rtf" format, if I can maintain the correct formatting options (for ease of editing by Scott, Chris and other editors, your preferences = ?).

Scott had originally asked for the pdf format, since that is more readable by most users (with the free Adobe Reader) and maintains all the correct formatting (= pictures with adjoining descriptions).

Claus, et.al:

Well, the disc has "grown" :). Not 3Mb anymore, it's 30Mb(zipped). So it won't go out my Email, but I'll have a link to a core Video_TS file for you to start looking at tonight, not touched up, but you'll be able to see the structure and layout.

As for the "Quick Sequence", it is on the disc as optin #1 on the main menu, although as I said, I'm having second thoughts about it. I considered moving it to the "misc" menu (another selectin off the main menu) but the "quick sequence" has it's own "sub menu" and I'm trying to keep the menu depth shallow. I'm still thinking about this one.

If I remove the "Quick Sequence" I don't think it would be very detrimental. The main menu items are still in "Quick Sequence" order. And each main menu subcategory still behaves in sequential order. For example, main menu=color, the color submenu has a sequence with the 3-4 color bar patterns, all in a row, returns to menu, next item selected. Next item is 75% color windows. All 6 color windows come in an uninterupted sequence (one at a time via "next button"), then at the end, user is returned to color submenu. Then you woudl go back to main, and choose gray pattterns, then similarly in gray patterns, you choose the category you want (i.e. gray windows) and all the patterns in that category are presented sequentially returning to gray patterns submenu. Some "pattern sets" such as the brightness and contrast loop until you press menu. The "rocking" 30-80% gray pattern is another pattern that will "loop". Other pattern-sets like the color windows, just do their sequence and return to menu. Logical operation and looping where appropriate.

The "Quick sequence" while handy locks you into a set pattern. If you decide you want to go back (or forward), you have to skip through the stuff before or after where you are. THe Quick sequence has a submenu that is a shortcut to places in the sequence but this menu is really a subset of the main categories and redundant. The quick sequence is handy for those who want to follow that exact sequence. But if you wanted to use for example the rocking 30-80% pattern, you're going to have to exit the quick sequence anyway. And if you use your "own" sequence, teh quick sequence will be of no value.

Downside to not having it is one might see a pattern or 2 they didn't need or care to see. But I think the main menu system is just granular enough that that woudl be mminimal. For example if one chooses "color bars" they might get one more pattern than the quick sequence, no biggie. But if you choose 75% color window, yoou dont' get anything extra. The other downside is one has to choose the sequence themselves. It won't automatically go from color windows to a grayscale. For many that will be the reason to not use the Quick sequence in teh first place. For me, I'd probably use the grayscale, then play with red ramps to find red limits on contrast, then maybe the color bars, then a 30-80% rocking pattern, then finally start full grayscale runs. In that example the quick sequence would not be usefull.

I'm still mulling it over, but for now, the quick sequence is there.

As for docs, my take on it is if the documentation was text-only and simple, then text files are good. But if the documentation is going to be spiffy with formatting, pictures, etc. Then pdf is the best, that's what it's for. If you do it in Word, I'll include that so someone could tweak that for their own purposes or for contributing editors. We (I) can generate a new pdf, no problem, and so could the end user if they wanted to, or edit in .doc format to their heart desire.

Edit: by suggestion, the zipped download file (ver B4.2a) is around 30Mb.

FYI, most of the reason for the disc size growth is not from pattern bloat. I have added a few pattern sets above the beta 2 and 3 version. For example 5% step gray, 100% color. A lot of the size increase is from increasing the length of the patterns before they loop. DVD players with slower menu responses can have pauses when a pattern loops which can be distracting. The animated patterns are also longer for this same reason, increased frame counts on animated patterns (ie.g. the animated color/tint pattern, lipsync pattern). Adding sound throws in some bytes, too. I will have sound (beeps) on the automatic grayscale pattern (can be used to automatically take a full grayscale with OpticOne/Progressive Labs), and of course the lipsync pattern will have sound.

It's still a relatively small DVD at arounf 300Mb, but larger than the 3Mb it started as.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a lip sinc pattern?

Video processors and other equipment can introduce delays, typically in the video stream. So by the time the video gets to the display and your eyes, it is lagging behind the audio by a few milliseconds or more. Many modern receivers and processors have an audio delay adjustment to allow you to match the audio and the video timings. WSR sells a stand-alone digital delay device to do the same thing.

The "lip sync" pattern is a moving object bouncing between 2 bars. At the instant the object touches a bar a beep of about 0.03 seconds sounds. This is designed to allow one to visually key the audio delay their system imposes with the video. Obviously this will only work for the DVD player to speaker component "chain", but if a common delay exists (such as in the case of a common video processor) this pattern can be used to at least get close on all sources that will see the same delay and processing.

Hello. I was trying to use 3do's video on my Electrhome Marquee CRT projector and found that it did not work so well. I guess the bloom issue of CRT's doesn't do well with an all white or all black screen. I've been using DVE consumer dvd and it has a brightness tool screen that has alot of white in it. When settings brightness lvls with alot of white in the image changed the contrast drastically.
Also, DVE is only 16-235? Is that true? If so I guess I need a tool that shows 0-255 so I can acruately set my display to 16-235 or so.

I brought up this issue to 3do and he advised me to check out your tool. I read your first few pages of this thread and it mentions that this tool is only for DLP? Could you please let me know what I can do? Or should I just stick with my DVE dvd.

MIne is designed for fixed pixel dispalys really. Analog (CRT) is a whole 'nother game. I don't plan to provide any CRT type patterns, sorry. I just don't have the scopes, etc. needed to produce something suitable for that type pattern IMO. And the point of my disc is for me (and others) to be able to do fixed pixel devices without the clutter of CRT patterns.

DVE patterns will be superior to mine for CRTs. Sorry. Scott