I'm having a very minor issue with ... well, I don't know what it's called. When I watch a movie, I sometimes see a *very* small amount of... duplication? When you look at somebody's head in a light scene, for example, you can see a very very faint 'shadow' or 'echo' of their head only a half inch away or so. You don't see a complete duplicate, but it's like some kind of vertical hold issue or something.

Anybody know what this is and how to fix it? :)

I'm wondering if it's only certain DVDs (still looking into that), my HDMI cable, or a setting that I can adjust in my DVD player or Projector.

Try lowering your Sharpness setting in the projector. That causes a sort of edge enhancment effect in the picture. Some DVDs have a lot of EE right in them from the start too though.

Shawn

Mike you had CC20R filter, have you tried it with 81C?

No, I haven't. Might be worth a look though.

I was wondering if a filter will do me any good if I have my PJ ISF calibrated?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if my grayscale tracking is more or less dead on and I have the ISF calibrator also use their calibration discs, won't that be as good, if not better than using a filter?

The settings shown here with and without a filter by myself, CKL and others are calibrated settings, done with the same type of calibration as an ISF calibrator. Adding a filter to a calibrated projector without recalibrating it will screw up the picture. However, a calibrated AE900 with a filter will have deeper blacks and higher CR than a calibrated AE900 without a filter.

The settings shown here with and without a filter by myself, CKL and others are calibrated settings, done with the same type of calibration as an ISF calibrator. Adding a filter to a calibrated projector without recalibrating it will screw up the picture. However, a calibrated AE900 with a filter will have deeper blacks and higher CR than a calibrated AE900 without a filter.


Thanks Mike, that was the answer I was looking for. Comparing apples to apples, is the filter worth it and it sounds like it is.

My projector is not ISF calibrated yet, but will be as soon as I get a few more hours on it. My concern was if I really even needed a filter if an ISF tech can get it so close without one.

A couple of questions for you hard core filter tweakers :D

Which filter will give me the best CR without sacrificing a dim picture or colors? Whats everyone liking the best as of today? I'm using a white screen with about a 1.0 gain in a very well light controlled room.(and still getting better with more room adjustments)

What screens are you using? White/Gray/BOC/paint with your screen?

Thanks,
Rob

Well..I am growing realy frustrated at this. I bought and have been working with the 81EF filter since last week. I love it for the Oppo, as it is truly amazing IMO at reproducing black levels and greyscale. But what gives with Comcast? I cannot seem to get a nice picture using the same settings as the Oppo, nor using anything remotely close to these settings. Everything just seems to have a red or green push to it, regardless of color temp and the individual gamma and contrast/brightness adjustments. I naturally have the box set to output 720P, have the overscan on, etc. Would anyone care to give me some rough numbers regarding Comcast and their settings in the 900 using the 81 EF filter? Thanks in advance.

Sorry for your problems and frustrations, Chris. My AE900 works fine with either DVD playback or Comcast with or without the filter.

You might want to try turning overscan to off to see if there is any improvement.

Projector Rookie- Most likely your sharpness is turned up too high. I used AVAI with the AE-900 and in every mode you need to turn it all the way down to get sharpness correct.


I ALSO HAVE A QUESTION FOR THE BOARD: To get a sharp picture I need to 1) adjust sharpness all the way down on the AE900 projector, 2) turn the sharpness all the way down on my DVD player (Pioneer Elite DV45a) and set the DVD output to progressive. Each of these steps provides observable improvement in what is a soft picture out of the box. My questions are 1) Is there anything else that I can do to sharpen the picture and 2) what graphics chip does the AE 900 use (e.g. silicon image 504, Genesis 230/Faradouja, etc)- I can't find this information any where. and 3) could the video chip be the source of the slight softness I perceive in some images? Much thanks for the info.

The use of the filter will improve the CR. I would try the 81C be sure to save your original settings in one of the memories. Since your unit has been calibrated you can try the filter and try the suggested settings to see how you like them. The calibration disks should be used for settings with or without the filter.

Regarding brightness. I like to use the low lamp mode and the 81EF was a little too dark even using the high lamp mode.

I like the results using the 81C on low lamp mode.

Can i conclude the improvements u get from the 81C is increased brightness, while CR and black levels are not as good as the 81ef?

Just like to understand better the trade-offs before deciding if i should get the 81c filter. Tks!

Just found out that hoya 81C 77mm has 2 types of filters - single and multi-coated. rwestley and mike, are your 81C filters single or multi-coated? Would different coatings have any effect on the settings?

tks!

Projector Rookie- Most likely your sharpness is turned up too high. I used AVAI with the AE-900 and in every mode you need to turn it all the way down to get sharpness correct.


I ALSO HAVE A QUESTION FOR THE BOARD: To get a sharp picture I need to 1) adjust sharpness all the way down on the AE900 projector, 2) turn the sharpness all the way down on my DVD player (Pioneer Elite DV45a) and set the DVD output to progressive. Each of these steps provides observable improvement in what is a soft picture out of the box. My questions are 1) Is there anything else that I can do to sharpen the picture and 2) what graphics chip does the AE 900 use (e.g. silicon image 504, Genesis 230/Faradouja, etc)- I can't find this information any where. and 3) could the video chip be the source of the slight softness I perceive in some images? Much thanks for the info.

The 900 uses the same proprietary soluion that is used in Panasonic's latest DVD players.

Would different coatings have any effect on the settings?


I don't think you can benefit anything from using a multi-coated filter in the light source. They make a difference when you have a collecting lens as the ones used in photography equipment because the reduce the reflections from the lens, so more light passes through. Although I'm no expert in physics, I don't think there is no extra value for using MC filter with a projector and I actually know that at least some types of multi-coating can be heat sensitive, which is not a desired property in this application.

I use the regularly coated version of Hoya 81C and I'm pleased with it. I actually prefer the filter to reflect the ambient light when the PJ is not in use.

See Page demonstrating the effects of coating (http://www.cs.mtu.edu/~shene/DigiCam/User-Guide/filter/filter-coated.html)

If the Panasonic uses a prorietary video chip, then using a scaler with one of the better chips (SI or genesis/faradouja) could make a difference, too. What chip does the Lumagen that some on this board have used have for a video chip?

Based on the link you provided my novice opinion would be that a MC filter could make a difference for a projector, too since the light would only go though the filter once and not bounce back at all to the lens (and then out again to the screen). That is, if you think of the screen as the film in a camera and the projector's light output being the image (light) going into a camera. There may be (probably are) overriding principles I have no clue about- I'm no expert- just thinking out loud. Never-the-less, the B&W 81C multicoated lfilter sure looks awesome with Mike's settings on a neutral grey screen. The movie Crash has some very dark scenes like when snow falls at night in LA in the last scene - it looks very film-like and comfortable to watch and I have the 2.35:1 cinemascope picture pushed out to 150" (i.e. only using about 80% of the maximum 720 horizontal pixels, I think).

Hey, has anyone tried an anamorphic lens in front of the projector to try to max the resolution for 2.35:1 aspect ratio DVD movies?

CKL, how much more would the light be reduced with the use of the CC20R added to the 81C? Do you think this would be a better alterntive than the 81EF or 81A+B combo?

CC20R cuts around 25% of luminance. Scotty already has 81C and he wants to lower the black level further. That's why I suggest him to add CC20R instead of ND filter.

If you are happy with 81C, then no need to consider CC20R. You know to obtain higher CR it will cut more luminance. Every user should find a balance point between CR and brightness in his own setup relating to the screen size, gain and personal taste.

I suggest to use Dynamic mode because it provides highest luminance for cutting so as to obtain the highest contrast. At my 92inch diagonal 1.3 gain screen, I think 81A+B provides decent picture quality. For other users having lower gain or bigger screen, 81C should be a good choice.

The benefit of CCR filter is it cut green as well (81A/B/C mainly cut blue). So it is possible to keep RGB gain at their max for the combination of say 81B+CC20R. Without trying this combination, I can't say how much it will be better than 81A+B. Anyway, 81C is the most cost effective choice.

Mike - Have you posted settings for the 81C filter and DYNAMIC mode? Your settings for the NORMAL mode are excellent and I would love to try this filter with Dynamic mode, but don't have equipment to adjust gamma, etc. and would just muck it up trying on my own. Any plans for this? If so, I'd be thrilled to try it out. Your settings for NORMAL mode were sweet. I don't have equipment to measure black level at the screen, but I'm very, very happy with the color and CR at this point. - THANKS. RANDOMCREEK

Hi Randomcreek. Just had my AE-900 calibrated last night by Tom Huffman. Excellent guy and very knowledgable in what he does. I'll give a more detailed report hopefully tomorrow but with the 81c installed and the projector in Dynamic mode, I pulled an on/off cr of almost 3400:1. I really wanted to use normal mode because the colors seemed a little easier to tame but we were having serious problems even getting the contrast to 1500:1 in this mode. I really don't know why this happened. The colors in normal were beautiful when calibrated but this mode was suffering from an elevated black level for some reason. Dynamic is an absolute light cannon and threw down an outstanding black reading to boot. The picture in dynamic has an incredible amount of pop to it and we were able to get the colors dialed in reasonably well.

Does the AE900 have a more geeky service menu that would allow very precise input/output matching. I called it a lookup table when I worked on digital printers in a different life. For a given digital input, set the lcd pixel to x value....

The advanced menu's gamma/contrast/etc only seems to get "in the ballpark" with generally good color balance but there always seems to be a tradeoff in color gamma at some part of the response curve.

Almost every movie I watch has a different exposore, color balance(probably duh).

Watching them on a high quality monitor is acceptable because the monitor doesnt seem to magnify the color balance issue. The AE900 looks awesome on movies that are very well exposed and processes, but seems to accentuate color issues that exist on movies with color or exposure problems.

Thanks

Zgraen- That would be great if you could provide your settings in DYNAMIC mode with 81C filter. Prior to getting a filter, I preferred the dynamic mode to the others for sports because of the reason you stated - the picture seems to pop better- and it appreared sharper. My only problem was with the color balance. Huge problem with the color yellow - it had some kind of green push that I couldn't figure out just fiddling with the controls. This was very noticable in a basketball game where the team uniforms were yellow, I knew that the color of the uniforms and lines on the floor were all wrong, but could not get it to what I thought it should be. I thought the sharpness and brightness were better for watching live action HD sports on ESPN HD (dishnetwork). It would be awesome if someone can master the dynamic mode/81C for color balance. My set up is already smoking hot with Mike's settings for Normal mode and even better CR and lower black level would be over the top. :)

Dennis, as of yet, I don't think anyone knows how to get to the service menu on the AE900. The controls to get to the menu on the 700 does not seem to work. So for now, we seem to be stuck with "advanced" menu.

zgraen, I am in the same boat right now. With the 81C it seems that we really should be able to get the best picture with Dynamic mode if we can tame the colors. So far I really like what I am seeing.

I started with CKLs numbers and honestly for my projector, the numbers were off. Nothing against the phenominal work people have done here, just trying to point out to everyone an accurate setup has to be done with the proper tools on your projector. All of the posting can at least give you a starting point though. So (with a grain of salt) keep the configs coming!

Quick question, are the people using dynamic mode w/ 81c (or 81A+81B) using high lamp mode like CKL is? I am using low and seem to be getting decent results, of course my lamp is brand new. I will post mine along with the tools I used and results when complete.

Mike - Have you posted settings for the 81C filter and DYNAMIC mode?

I haven't tried it yet, but I had a hard time taming Dynamic with the 81EF filter, so I'm not hopeful that it will be any better. Not only is green and blue pushed to the max with Dynamic, but gamma is all over the place.

Dennis, as of yet, I don't think anyone knows how to get to the service menu on the AE900. The controls to get to the menu on the 700 does not seem to work. So for now, we seem to be stuck with "advanced" menu.


You can access the service menu the same way as with the AE700 (highlight OSD and push and hold down the select button), but it only gives you some flicker and panel adjust options. For advanced color control, you need calibration equipment and then use the CCM functions.

Now I am tempted - would a filter help me?

I have tried Mike's settings for the Cinema 1 mode. The images using DVE (not pro) at the table where the couple is dining look fantastic and spot on color wise.
No mater how I try - there is still substantial green push with the best of my calibration efforts.

Then I play movies from DVD (for example Wedding Crashers and most recently Doom) and the facial colors look entirely off almost reddish purple in the lips.

My set up is as follows:

Projector is mounted on a shelf 47" to center of lens from floor
Small <20 degree horizontal offset on the lense
Mike's settings for Cinema 1 (green dialed down -3 not -5)
Screen is GreyWolf 106" (center is 46" from floor)
Throw distance is 13'3"
Low Lamp, normal fan
DVD Player is Denon 1920 (black level enhance is off) - output 720p
HDMI connection

Anyone have thoughts about reducing the purple lips and yellow skin tones?

Hey Volley. My calibrated settings for the 81c in dynamic mode were in low lamp mode.

zygraen- Can you post your settings with 81C and Dynamic mode? Also, what settings for Normal mode do you use? I'm using Mike's normal mode/81C settings in the advanced menu. Then I used AVIA to adjust brightness, contrast, white level, color saturation and Hue. Color balance is dead on to my eyes and CR and black level are excellent on my set up (neutral grey 150" screen, light controlled room). If it's possible to improve on this, it will probably take using the dynamic mode, equipment I don't have and perhaps some tweaks in the service menu because the green/yellow ????(I don't know what? something is out of wack) on these projectors in this mode. I'd love to give the Dynamic mode a try this weekend with 81C, but honestly I can't even get started without some baseline settings. Thanks.

Hey Randomcreek. I have a wedding tomorrow during the day, but after that I will give you all the settings.

Holy cow! I can't believe I read this entire thread in one sitting! Thanks for the wealth of information. My AE900 calibration IQ is higher now.

Just wanted to put this question to bed. I saw it ask many times, and answered differently at times. What is the sequence of calibration? AVIA/DVE, input settings on page 1, recheck AVIA/DVE

OR

Input settings on page 1 first, THEN do AVIA/DVI settings

Maybe the answer to this can be added to the first page instructions, so that it won't be ask again.

As to Oppo brightness settings, what is setting for firmware 1022, 1111, and new 0220?

I must rest..........

I don't know if this belongs in the tweak thread, but, is there any way to disable OVERSCAN when using a 480i input? I know when I change the DVD player to progressive output I can disable the overscan, but the players deinterlacer is not that great. In 480i, though, the option is greyed out.

Okay, just took the plunge and upgraded the old AE100 to the AE900. Good decision to be sure.

HOWEVER, I am getting what looks like Macroblocking. Instead of smooth lines, I am seeing jaggies (especially with white text, like at the beginning of Toy Story at the start menu.

I don't have a lens shift issue (the joystick is in the center).

My firmware on the Oppo is probably the older version (I purchased it on 11/6/05).

I am using DVI to HDMI.

These lines were much smoother (except for the screen door) on my old AE100 via HTPC.

I do not have DVE or Avia and I'm using CK1's non-filter settings.

Suggestions?

Okay, problem fixed. I upgraded the firmware to most recent version and the text and edges are VERY smooth.

Actually, I would argue TOO smooth. It even looked like I was slightly out of focus. I checked my focus and it was the best I could get it.

Maybe I'm expecting too much. Picture is truly filmlike but not as crisp as I would expect (I guess I've been spoiled by watching all the HDTV from my 760p Samsung in my family room).

I haven't hooked up Direct TV yet so I can't really compare. I only have 1 HD DirecTV unit in my family room and only regular Tivo units in the other 5 so I may have to go out and buy another HD Tivo for the media room now.

Any tweaks to make the image a bit crisper?

Okay, problem fixed. I upgraded the firmware to most recent version and the next is VERY smooth.

Actually, I would argue TOO smooth. It even looked like I was slightly out of focus. I checked my focus and it was the best I could get it.

Maybe I'm expecting too much. Picture is truly filmlike but not as crisp as I would expect (I guess I've been spoiled by watching all the HDTV from my 760p Samsung in my family room).

IAny tweaks to make the image a bit crisper?

Oppo recent firmware releases have included a sharpness option that was not in the menu of older versions. Have a play with it.

cheers from OZ

Oppo recent firmware releases have included a sharpness option that was not in the menu of older versions. Have a play with it.

cheers from OZ
Sharpness controls add stuff that isn't there. Personally, I *never* play with it.

pepar, what say you then in regards to the "softness" I am seeing in the pq vs. the pre-firmware crispness I had (the jaggies not withstanding)?

I take it you have the most recent firmware and your pq is crisp. BTW, what I mean by crisp is that the edges in the antimated movies is not sharp and well defined. To me the edgdes looks soft, almost blurry.

Paul,

Are you feeding the projector 720p from the Oppo? Did you turn off Overscan in the Panasonic?

Shawn

Paul- is the sharpness turned all the way down on the AE900 and all the way down (or off if that's an option on the Oppo) on your DVD player? I just popped in Toy Story and the credit text in the begining looks precisely sharp. I'm using a pioneer elite DV45a player that's about 3 years old. I've ordered the oppo and should have it next week. My player's video processing is not bad, but not great either (waving flag test on HQV Benchmark is poor) and even though the AE900's chip cleans the picture up a bit- I'm optimistic I can get even better apparent detail and better clarity on panning images by feeding an upconverted 720p signal directly to the projector from the oppo. We'll see.

sfogg, how do I feed the pj 720p? I went through the menu and the signal mode is set at 480p and it doesn't let me change it. (I thought DVDs were 480p). Yes, I just turned off overscan (although it didn't seem to help).

Randomcreek, just turned down sharpness all the way (-2 is all the way) and just set Oppo's sharpness to off. No noticeable difference.

Paul- Have you set to 720p as suggested by Shawn? Someone on one of the boards mentioned that you can only change certain settings on the oppo when playback is stopped. My panasonic is the same way- iniital settings like display type can only be set when DVD playback is stopped. I have to say if you try this and picture isn't any better on the oppo than with your old player than I'm in trouble, too. I just bought the oppo (delivery next week) because I was hoping the video chipset in the oppo would improve what my pioneer elite player does poorly - fast motion and panning effects - on 150 " big screen they don't look as tight as I think they should be. The AE900 video chip does improve this problem a little (e.g. it locks onto bleachers in HQV TESTDISK racetrack test which the pioneer elite doesn't), but something is something lacking in fast motion and panning. I hope the pic is noticabley better with the oppo or I've just thrown money away on the oppo because it's the only reason I bought it. I'll report my settings and findings next week.

Ramdomcreek

How do I set to 720p? Am I setting the AE900 or the Oppo. Looking through the manuals and on-screen menus on both, I don't see this option.

I hope this is it because even my wife commented (when watching Curb Your Enthuiasm DVD last night) that the picture seemed blurry to her. We both prefer the old AE100 via HTPC, even with screen door.

Obviously something is not right with my settings, someone please help!

Paul

Just to add my $1.98.

I use the oppo and the panny together in this manner:

I de-interlace with the oppo because the faroudja chip does a much better job of removing jaggies than the panny. I used the HQV benchmark test DVD to help me make this decision.

I send the ae900 a DVI 480p signal so that I can use the vertical zoom function of the panny to get what I call a poor man's constant height setup for viewing 2:35 movies.

I have to send the panny the 480p signal or I dont get the vertical zoom. So the panny is doing the scaling function for me.

It does crop a few rows of pixels on top and bottom, but I am planning on using an outboard scaler like the lumagen HDQ(when it becomes available) perform more precise scaling. The results to me are awesome. No letterbox and every panny pixel is working harrrrd to make the picture.

The lumagen HDP series also has the faroudja chip like the oppo. Not sure what the HDQ model will have. The working term for this model is "wrote-our-own-code"

If you are not doing CH stuff, then I couldnt really tell the difference between sending the panny a 480p from the oppo and letting it scale, vs scaling with the oppo to the panny's native 720p. My initial impression was that the panny does a better job scaling(would make sense) but its too hard to tell for me. The avia test disk did not reveal any major difference.

Sorry to be blunt here but can anyone walk me through setting either the AE900 and/ or Oppo to 720p?

Muchas Gracias.

Sorry to be blunt here but can anyone walk me through setting either the AE900 and/ or Oppo to 720p?

Muchas Gracias.


The panny will (attempt) to convert to 720p regardless of what you send it. So the trick is to decide what device you want to do the scaling.

If you send the panny a 480i, it will de-interlace and scale to 720p.(this probably happens by default using component or s-vid.
If you send the panny a 480p, it will simply scale.

If you send it DVI output from a HTPC, make sure you select a compatible resolution beforehand or have an rgb connection in place to check settings. The panny took a little fiddling to realize that I couldnt use the normal settings that I use on my pc monitor. I created a custom 1280*720@60Hz on my PC and it looked pretty awesome. Very useable desktop. Turning off AUTO IRIS is recommended for general PC usage.

If you are using a digital connection(HDMI) to connect to the panny, then you can set the output mode using the DVI button on the oppo remote. You have to be stopped in order to do this. The mode will not switch while a dvd is playing. You can switch between 480p, 720p and 1080i. The panny will take all 3 and scale and de-interlace according to the input signal properties.

Havent messed with the component capabilities of the oppo since the faroudja chip is hardwired to the DVI card in the player.

I know this prob doesnt totally anwer your question, but I'm being a little anal about turning on my panny to simply check a setting.. :) would have to sit and watch a movie then... :) :)

Also to get maximum performance out of the panny, I make sure overscan is turned off. This will ensure that you get a 1:1 pixel map with a native 720 input signal.

I noticed that watching the loggins&messina live video, I saw some artifacts from the original video content on the right side of the screen, but it wasnt annoying enough to turn of overscan to eliminate it.

pepar, what say you then in regards to the "softness" I am seeing in the pq vs. the pre-firmware crispness I had (the jaggies not withstanding)?

I take it you have the most recent firmware and your pq is crisp. BTW, what I mean by crisp is that the edges in the antimated movies is not sharp and well defined. To me the edgdes looks soft, almost blurry.
I am speaking generally, Paul. (I have neither a 900 nor an oppo.) Sharpness controls add high frequencies - NOISE - that make edges appear sharper, but to my eyes it is a false - and disturbing - effect. It is adding information that is not in the original signal. We've struggled for decades with cleaning up analog and now that we're in a pure, clean 1:1 digital world, we're gonna add noise to our signals to trick our eyes?

Pepar, Thanks, I get it.

Dennis, thanks too. I used a HTPC with my AE100. Actually, the pq was awesome except for the screen door. My inital perception of the AE900 WITHOUT a HTPC (using the Oppo) is that I am VERY impressed with the lack of SD but the pq when watching DVDs through Oppo's DVI to HDMI cable is that it is MUCH worse to my eyes than the AE100 via HTPC. I wonder if the AE900 through HTPC would solve my pq problems. I was really hoping to eliminate the HTPC and get the upscaling DVD player in its place (sigh).

The best way I can describe the pq is resembled when I had my S-Video VHS hooked up through my HTPC when watching my AE100. In short, kinda blurry.

I will try the DVI button on the Oppo remote to see if that helps.

Pepar, Thanks, I get it.

Dennis, thanks too. I used a HTPC with my AE100. Actually, the pq was awesome except for the screen door. My inital perception of the AE900 WITHOUT a HTPC (using the Oppo) is that I am VERY impressed with the lack of SD but the pq when watching DVDs through Oppo's DVI to HDMI cable is that it is MUCH worse to my eyes than the AE100 via HTPC. I wonder if the AE900 through HTPC would solve my pq problems. I was really hoping to eliminate the HTPC and get the upscaling DVD player in its place (sigh).

The best way I can describe the pq is resembled when I had my S-Video VHS hooked up through my HTPC when watching my AE100. In short, kinda blurry.

I will try the DVI button on the Oppo remote to see if that helps.
Try your HTPC with the 900 for a fairer comparison. You'll quickly eliminate the Panny or the oppo as the source of the problem. Also, while the oppo is a dynamite player for the price, moving from an HTPC may make you a condidate for a better upscaling DVD unit?

Guys, has anyone here done a real-world comparison between the Panny and a 720p DLP or 480p DLP? I know this gets bounced around alot, but I'm curious if the Panny is capable of holding its own against the image a 480p DLP throws out in terms of shadow detail and black levels.

If it does, in order to accomplish this goal, does it need to be left in some form of auto-iris mode, which regulates brightness?

If so, does this make it impossible to really calibrate?

Thx for the 20 q's....

What is your contrast setting after using AVIA? I think mine might be too high. I am using Eric's 81C settings because Mike's produces a green tint in flesh tones on my projector. I'm projecting a 9' image onto a slightly grey DIY paint on the wall. The AVIA calibration guide from RAM electronics says to increase contrast until the right most moving bar disappears, then back off until it is slightly visible. Doing so on my setup sets Contrast to 26. Is that too high?

Pepar, Thanks, I get it.

Dennis, thanks too. I used a HTPC with my AE100. Actually, the pq was awesome except for the screen door. My inital perception of the AE900 WITHOUT a HTPC (using the Oppo) is that I am VERY impressed with the lack of SD but the pq when watching DVDs through Oppo's DVI to HDMI cable is that it is MUCH worse to my eyes than the AE100 via HTPC. I wonder if the AE900 through HTPC would solve my pq problems. I was really hoping to eliminate the HTPC and get the upscaling DVD player in its place (sigh).

The best way I can describe the pq is resembled when I had my S-Video VHS hooked up through my HTPC when watching my AE100. In short, kinda blurry.

I will try the DVI button on the Oppo remote to see if that helps.

Dennis make sure you are using the cinema 1 mode ;anything else seems to greatly exagerate any artifacts.Also use the new 0228 oppo firmware with everything except truelife off and set the 900 sharpness to -4.

Hello everyone. Had projector calibrated the other day. I don't know if anyone else has run into this problem, but the cr in calibrated normal mode(with the 81c) was insanely low (1150:1). What the hell is going on with my pj. When we calibrate dynamic mode, we get a very good 3350:1 CR but all shadow detail in all dark scenes is lost. I love the calibrated normal mode with its spot on colors but miss the depth and pop that dynamic mode has. The calibrator was at my house till 12:30 a.m and din't have time to mess with my gamma settings. Could this be the cause of my no shadow detail in dynamic mode and could this be playing a role in the lack of punch in my normal mode image? Please help! I am at wits end and feel as If I flushed $300 bucks down the toilet.

Okay, panic avoided.

I made the following 2 adjustments. After reading the manual, I learned that the pj should not be tilted more than 30 degrees. Since I read here in the forum not to shift the joystick to the extreme because pq could suffer, I tilted the pj instead on my ceiling mount. The manual said that this could be a reason for a blurry picture so I leveled the pj and used the joystick.

I also toggled between 720p and 480p on the Oppo by pressing the DVI button on the remote.

I ended up selecting the 720p mode. I then put in Toy Story and WOW, big difference (much better than the AE100). I almost took pepar's advice and hooked the HTPC up to the AE900. I really didn't want to do this because I'm afraid the HTPC will improve the pq and I really don't want to use one anymore (hence finding a good, low priced upscaling DVD player and upgrading to the AE900). What I don't know won't hurt me in the pq department. I'll probably go back to a HTPC someday once I rip all my music and DVDs to create the ultimate media PC.

Also, for what it's worth, I went with the Cinema 1 mode and CK1's settings on the pj but I like the way Toy Story looks in Cinema 3.

Thanks everyone. Paul

Can anyone explain the affects of raising and lowering gamma settings. How would changing these settings in either direction affect color, brightness, contrast, etc. Thanks again.

Hi all,

I'm trying to find someone who has a Denon 3910 as well as the Panny 900. Like to get some settings for the DVD player as well as the PJ. No filter. Can't seem to find anyone listing the DVD player settings. Particlularly the Enhanced Black and/or the DVD Players Gamma settings.

Thanks!!

Elio

Hi all,

I'm trying to find someone who has a Denon 3910 as well as the Panny 900. Like to get some settings for the DVD player as well as the PJ. No filter. Can't seem to find anyone listing the DVD player settings. Particlularly the Enhanced Black and/or the DVD Players Gamma settings.

Thanks!!

Elio
Hi eliocon! Fancy meeting you here. :) I can guide you to some info on the black setting question - http://www.signvideo.com/dv-black-levels-dvd-authoring-mpeg-2-part-1.htm

Hi eliocon! Fancy meeting you here. :) I can guide you to some info on the black setting question - http://www.signvideo.com/dv-black-levels-dvd-authoring-mpeg-2-part-1.htm


Hehe... I tend to get around pepar!!!

Thanks for the link bud!!

E

Once you have set the correct color space in your source, it generally best to make all other adjustments in the display. There are a few exceptions with certain firmware versions of the Oppo, but none that I am aware of with the Denon.

That's why virtually all of the adjustment values posted pertain to the 900, not the individual source devices.

Once you have set the correct color space in your source, it generally best to make all other adjustments in the display. There are a few exceptions with certain firmware versions of the Oppo, but none that I am aware of with the Denon.

That's why virtually all of the adjustment values posted pertain to the 900, not the individual source devices.
That is sound advice for only calibrating for DVD or having a projector with more than one calibration memory position. With an HD STB and no extra memory positions, it's good to calibrate the projector to the STB and then use the DVD player adjustments to calibrate it.

It's always best to calibrate the display to the source.

If both your STB and your DVD use the same digital input, then you simply use separate memory positions for each source. The 900 offers 3 memory presets for each input

It's always best to calibrate the display to the source.

If both your STB and your DVD use the same digital input, then you simply use separate memory positions for each source. The 900 offers 3 memory presets for each input
Doh! Yes, of course, I *am* on a 900 thread! Please disregard my previous yammering. :)

I now have the oppo and I'm curionus about the pixel mapping in 2.35:1 aspect ratio. How can you maximize the pixels that are being used to display a 2.35:1 movie image (minus any black bars)? Is it possible to use the entire AE900 panel resolution to :

1) display a 2.35:1 aspect ratio film using a 480P signal and AE900 in zoom mode
2) display a 2.35:1 aspect ratio film using a 720P signal and AE900 in zoom mode

What settings make best use of this DVD player and the AE900 capabilities when displaying 2.35:1 aspect media? Why? :)

-RANDOMCREEK

I now have the oppo and I'm curionus about the pixel mapping in 2.35:1 aspect ratio. How can you maximize the pixels that are being used to display a 2.35:1 movie image (minus any black bars)? Is it possible to use the entire AE900 panel resolution to :

1) display a 2.35:1 aspect ratio film using a 480P signal and AE900 in zoom mode
2) display a 2.35:1 aspect ratio film using a 720P signal and AE900 in zoom mode

What settings make best use of this DVD player and the AE900 capabilities when displaying 2.35:1 aspect media? Why? :)

-RANDOMCREEK

I zoom the oppo 480p output via DVI->HDMI on my panny 900 and am able to use a panamorph p572 to vertically squeeze it back to 2:35.

the panny will only vertical zoom 480p. It wont do 720p.

It does seem to crop a few rows of pixels but is makes for a poor mans CH setup that can produce very spectacular results.

here is a pic of my projector setup with the lens.

http://www.hendohome.com/ht_construction/projector4.jpg

EDIT: ted will of course have a much more eloquent reply and I do appreciate his unrelenting dedication and contributions to this forum...

;)

I now have the oppo and I'm curionus about the pixel mapping in 2.35:1 aspect ratio. How can you maximize the pixels that are being used to display a 2.35:1 movie image (minus any black bars)? Is it possible to use the entire AE900 panel resolution to :

1) display a 2.35:1 aspect ratio film using a 480P signal and AE900 in zoom mode
2) display a 2.35:1 aspect ratio film using a 720P signal and AE900 in zoom mode

What settings make best use of this DVD player and the AE900 capabilities when displaying 2.35:1 aspect media? Why? :)

-RANDOMCREEK

Since I've seen some use "panel' interchangeably with "screen" I am assuming by "panel" you mean the PJ's lcd panels in the optical block and not the screen. If you mean screen then the 900 has the zoom range to optically zoom to fill a 2.35 screen. You would of course lose brightness.

If you mean LCD panel (the optical block) then to use the full panel of a 16:9 PJ to project 2.35 will require an anamorphic lens to do the geometry correction that would be a result of vertical stretching.

The 900 *can* do the required vertical stretch with a 480 source using the ZOOM mode. However a scaler will be needed for 720.

A good place to start is in the 2.35 forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=117).

I run a Constant Height setup with my AE700 using a Prismasonic (http://prismasonic.com/english/) H1000 and do my scaling with an HTPC using ZoomPlayer.

EDIT I notice Dennis was responding to these questions while I was posting. Sorry for any redundancies.

ted

What type of screens are all you filter tweakers using and which filter?

Thanks,
Rob

Thanks Ted and Dennis- A couple of things I'm still fuzzy on, so bear with me . .

1) If you use the verticle compression prismic lens approach (sending a 480p signal from the DVD player), scaling it with the AE900 and correcting aspect with prismic lens, then you can use all 720 pixels of the LCD panel, but how many pixels is the DVD player using to produce the image (minus the black bars)?

All 480 or ~400 (480 minus what is used for black bars). I guess what my question is, "is the player able to apply all 480 lines to the picture (minus the black bars) or are the balck bars always going to use up some of the resolution?"

2) I get the part about how to get the AE900 to use all 720 lines of the LCD panel by scaling and using the lens to correct the aspect ratio. But if you don't use prismic lens approach, and you use the AE900 zoom function for a 720P or 480P signal to make a 2.35:1 aspect ratio picture, how many pixel of the LCD panel are you using? At some settings it appears to me as if there are no black bars on top and bottom of the 2.35:1 picture and I can't for the life of me figure out how that can be. ??? Thanks.

-RANDOMCREEK

I see these lenses go for almost as much as the projector- is the result such that es this meet you s this approach worth the

Thanks Ted and Dennis- A couple of things I'm still fuzzy on, so bear with me . .

1) If you use the verticle compression prismic lens approach (sending a 480p signal from the DVD player), scaling it with the AE900 and correcting aspect with prismic lens, then you can use all 720 pixels of the LCD panel, but how many pixels is the DVD player using to produce the image (minus the black bars)?

All 480 or ~400 (480 minus what is used for black bars). I guess what my question is, "is the player able to apply all 480 lines to the picture (minus the black bars) or are the balck bars always going to use up some of the resolution?"

2) I get the part about how to get the AE900 to use all 720 lines of the LCD panel by scaling and using the lens to correct the aspect ratio. But if you don't use prismic lens approach, and you use the AE900 zoom function for a 720P or 480P signal to make a 2.35:1 aspect ratio picture, how many pixel of the LCD panel are you using? At some settings it appears to me as if there are no black bars on top and bottom of the 2.35:1 picture and I can't for the life of me figure out how that can be. ??? Thanks.

-RANDOMCREEK

I see these lenses go for almost as much as the projector- is the result such that es this meet you s this approach worth the

I think the prism lens is actually a horizontal stretch. The panamorph I have is vertical squeeze.

The dvd player does indeed only use the number of rows required to display the movie in the letterbox mode. What I saw discussed earlier was that mpeg2 doesnt consume much bandwidth displaying the black letterbox, leaving more bitrate to show the actual movie itself. I would imagine that this means an improvement on the horizontal resolution.

<Out on a limb> I believe the mpeg2 encodes using the iframe concept and only encodes changes to the picture. Since the black letterbars stay the same color all the time, there is very little data consumption required to define the space used during the encoding process.

I defer to the folks that eat iframes for breakfast to concur or deny this comment.

The panny simply clips off the letter box rows at an arbitrary row number on the 480p vertical zoom. I notice that on 2:35 movies, there are several rows missing at the top. I have set the vertical offset on my panny to make sure that subtitles from the oppo are not clipped in the zoomed image. This makes more top rows disappear, but I'm living with it for now until i get my outboard scaler.


found a very cool link that talks about letterbox vs anamorphic in great detail.. and more than you ever wanted to know about the dvd implementation.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~_dom_/ts_faq/section_05_02.htm

Thanks Ted and Dennis- A couple of things I'm still fuzzy on, so bear with me . .

1) If you use the verticle compression prismic lens approach (sending a 480p signal from the DVD player), scaling it with the AE900 and correcting aspect with prismic lens, then you can use all 720 pixels of the LCD panel, but how many pixels is the DVD player using to produce the image (minus the black bars)?

All 480 or ~400 (480 minus what is used for black bars). I guess what my question is, "is the player able to apply all 480 lines to the picture (minus the black bars) or are the balck bars always going to use up some of the resolution?"

2) I get the part about how to get the AE900 to use all 720 lines of the LCD panel by scaling and using the lens to correct the aspect ratio. But if you don't use prismic lens approach, and you use the AE900 zoom function for a 720P or 480P signal to make a 2.35:1 aspect ratio picture, how many pixel of the LCD panel are you using? At some settings it appears to me as if there are no black bars on top and bottom of the 2.35:1 picture and I can't for the life of me figure out how that can be. ??? Thanks.

-RANDOMCREEK

I see these lenses go for almost as much as the projector- is the result such that es this meet you s this approach worth the
Buy or, better yet, MAKE a masking system to make the letterbox bars black and you will soon forget they're there.. It doesn't make sense to me to spend nearly as much on a fancy lens as on the projector itself.

The next post you read will probably be that of one of the rabid fans of constant height. :)

Dennis- Thanks for the link which explains perhaps in part the large variability in the quality of the 2.35:1 DVDs I have in my collection. Seems that the "anamorphic" process DVDs are superior to "letterbox" in terms of bits of data available for resolution of the picture. I always thought they meant the same thing.

Back to the issue at hand. I have black masking that completely covers the black bars during viewing (so that doesn't bother me in the least), but since I project a 150" 2.35:1 picture I would like to maximize the potential of the Panny with solid tweaks. Is the basic advantage in picture quality with lens only using all of the LCD panel resolution? Is using 33% more pixels in the display in this way increasing true or apparent resolution ? Is the picture 100% better (i.e. looks like an HD movie over the satellite)? Or is it just incrementally better (i.ae. like going from 480i to 480P)?

Would you watch 2.35:1 movies now without the lens now that you have used it? Do you think the level of improvement in picture quality is (as someone else here noted) worth almost the price of the projector??? I wish I could A/B test one of these on my system, but that not being an option, I'm very happy to have your objective opinion? Much thanks. -RANDOMCREEK

"better yet, MAKE a masking system to make the letterbox bars black and you will soon forget they're there.. "

Then you don't get the intended effect of *w-i-d-e-s-c-r-e-e-n* movies. Instead of getting wider you get shorter.

"It doesn't make sense to me to spend nearly as much on a fancy lens as on the projector itself."

Why not? For 2.35 movies (which are very common) you then get the full resolution of the projector instead of throwing away 33% of its vertical resolution... and 33% of its light.

For those that really want to have the movie experience at home CH is the way to go. It is what most theaters use after all.

Besides, if you watch the used market it is possible to sometimes pick up those fancy lenses for very good prices. I bought my ISCO II used for $500.

Shawn

The next post you read will probably be that of one of the rabid fans of constant height. :)

I'm a fan, and I believe its the most advantageous way of doing things, but the only things that I have to wipe the foam from my face for, are unmentionable in a public forum. :eek:

The advantages are outlined in the CH Forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=117) wherein there are a wide range of pocketbooks and methods of implementation. Some even argue in favour of the virtues of simply optically zooming. I did it for a while but simply thought that a lens was a solution with fewer hassles. I think you will find that most there do not require vaccinations.

As a fellow who has invested as much effort in a beautiful HT as you have, and someone who has argued the virtues of good power conditioning elsewhere, don't you think your comment is a little unfair?

I would simply argue that the cost of creating a good lens, free of artifacts, is extremely expensive compared to the line manufacturing of an electronic box. Just witness the price of a good camera lens vs. that of a camera body. There is also the fact that lenses of this sort are essentially speciality items that cannot compete on a volume basis. A good lens will also take you through many projectors if you wish, there is no need to upgrade when the latest electronic whirligig shows up - as long as it works with the new flashlight.

I ain't rich, and there are lots of things I could spend my money on, but for me the investment in the lens was worth it in convenience alone, and the appreciable gain in PQ over other methods is at least as valuable as the PJ I choose. In fact its the one "accessory" in my HT that I will not relinquish unless you provide a better one. Heck I've spent as much money on 2.35 format DVD's over the years, and the lens finally allows me to watch them in a manner and with a quality they deserve.

btw :p
ted

....Seems that the "anamorphic" process DVDs are superior to "letterbox" in terms of bits of data available for resolution of the picture. I always thought they meant the same thing.
It can be easy to confuse *anamorphic* encoding which encodes non-square pixels with the usage of anamorphic lenses to optically distort/rectify an image. Its fortunate that this is done for >1.5 (720 x 480) source as it does allow the encoder to utilize as many pixels as possible. Unfortunatly with nextgen DVD's since 16:9 is full frame they have not had the forsight to provide an anamorphic flag for > 1.78 source. :(

......but since I project a 150" 2.35:1 picture Holy crap - you got a high gain screen?

Is the basic advantage in picture quality with lens only using all of the LCD panel resolution? This would be the prime advantage as it enables 33% gain in brightness (less the 5% or so loss from the new glass) over simply optically zooming the image to that size.

Is using 33% more pixels in the display in this way increasing true or apparent resolution ? Is the picture 100% better (i.e. looks like an HD movie over the satellite)? Or is it just incrementally better (i.ae. like going from 480i to 480P)?
There is no gain in resolution (you can't add detail that isn't there) so it would be apparent, but since it adds 33% more lines to output the image has greater solidity, a fineness and smoothness that you will not get from simply optically zooming as with zooming you are increasing pixel size and a graininess results. Whether this is 100% better, I don't think you can put a figure like that to it as ultimately it is all dependent on source, scaler and the quality of the optics involved. If you can't seen one it becomes a leap of faith I'm afraid but at your screen size the increased brightness over optically zooming might be worth it alone - particularly as your bulb ages as it invariably will.

Would you watch 2.35:1 movies now without the lens now that you have used it? -RANDOMCREEK
No!
My cold dead hands.

ted

I toyed with the idea of a scope CH setup...and then realized that next gen formats aren't setup this way, meaning yet another round of headaches.

So its back to the drawing board, no?

"So its back to the drawing board, no?"

Not really. The main difference would be a user would need HD compatible scaling that can handle the AR changes needed for the CH. If you have that there should be no problem.

CH works fine for me with OTA HD sources or with D-VHS for example.

Shawn

"It doesn't make sense to me to spend nearly as much on a fancy lens as on the projector itself."

Why not? For 2.35 movies (which are very common) you then get the full resolution of the projector instead of throwing away 33% of its vertical resolution... and 33% of its light.
I don't understand this. Doesn't the DVD player still output the 2.35:1 image bracketed top and bottom with black bars to fill the standard 16:9 AR display?

And that 33% resolution thing is compared to letterboxed widescreen. A CH 2.35 image has no more resolution than a non-CH one.

"I don't understand this. Doesn't the DVD player still output the 2.35:1 image bracketed top and bottom with black bars to fill the standard 16:9 AR display?"

I said the full resolution of the *projector*. If you project an image with black bars in it you aren't using the full resolution of the projector.

However, if you vertically expand the image fed to a 16:9 projector such that the black bars are gone the entire panel is used. The anamorphic lens then corrects for that vertical stretch... either by vertical compression or horizontal expansion.

Shawn

As a fellow who has invested as much effort in a beautiful HT as you have, and someone who has argued the virtues of good power conditioning elsewhere, don't you think your comment is a little unfair?
It's just not an issue with me - CH. And I'd like to read somewhere where we perceive a 2.35:1 image projected onto a 1.78:1 screen as anything other than a 2.35:1 image. My 16:9 92" wide screen already stretches from left speaker to right speaker, so I've no room for a wider screen. And I've no interest in watching 1.78:1, 1.85:1 images at a width narrower than my screen. A 2.35:1 image, IMO, means the director composed the shot differently and could include more L/R at the expense of up/down. But in any case, I don't see the need or benefit of having to move my eyes further left and right for effect. As such, all the resources you CH'ers expend on it just doesn't make sense to me. I will allow, however, that I just don't get it.

"I don't understand this. Doesn't the DVD player still output the 2.35:1 image bracketed top and bottom with black bars to fill the standard 16:9 AR display?"

I said the full resolution of the *projector*. If you project an image with black bars in it you aren't using the full resolution of the projector.

However, if you vertically expand the image fed to a 16:9 projector such that the black bars are gone the entire panel is used. The anamorphic lens then corrects for that vertical stretch... either by vertical compression or horizontal expansion.

Shawn
OK, but how is using more projector pixels adding more resolution, i.e. data? Do 2.35:1 DVD's contain more information per frame than 1.85:1 or 1.78:1 DVD's?

It's just not an issue with me - CH. And I'd like to read somewhere where we perceive a 2.35:1 image projected onto a 1.78:1 screen as anything other than a 2.35:1 image. My 16:9 92" wide screen already stretches from left speaker to right speaker, so I've no room for a wider screen. And I've no interest in watching 1.78:1, 1.85:1 images at a width narrower than my screen. As such, all the resources you CH'ers expend on it just doesn't make sense to me. I will allow, however, that I just don't get it.

If you accept that 1.78, 2.35, 1.33 et al are all ratios (which they are) then there needs to be a constant. That constant, mathematically is 1, which is representative of the height. It would then follow that 2.35 is a larger ratio than 1.78 and thus should be presented as such.

This is all intellectual rationalization of course and therefore may appear as so much claptrap to many. The truth is, it is about intent and scale. Cinemascope was meant to be *larger* in scale and more encompassing than 1.78. This was its original intent (business history aside) and continues to be so today. Omnimax has similar intents. To display it otherwise is fine - as you've said - but you are missing the sheer visceral pleasure that opening up the screen can give.

So your screen is about 52 x 92, mine is similar for 16:9 but for 21:9 it happens to be 51" x 120". We are not suggesting you narrow your viewing angle but to widen it, which is as it should be for 2.35 vs. 1.78.

ted

"And I'd like to read somewhere where we perceive a 2.35:1 image projected onto a 1.78:1 screen as anything other than a 2.35:1 image."

Who claimed that? What was said is the 2.35 movie ends up with an image size that is smaller in a constant width setup. That is the opposite of what CinemaScope was trying to achieve in the first place..... increasing the viewing angle for the audience.

With a CH setup the picture size widens for 'Scope movies.... just like it was supposed to do in the theaters.

"My 16:9 92" wide screen already stretches from left speaker to right speaker, so I've no room for a wider screen. And I've no interest in watching 1.78:1, 1.85:1 images at a width narrower than my screen."

Then 2.35 wouldn't fit in your width constrained room.

If you were height constrained it would be a different story.

"OK, but how is using more projector pixels adding more resolution"

Without the lens a 2.35 movie projecting an active image at roughly 1280x544. With the lens you are projecting the active image at 1280x720.

"Do 2.35:1 DVD's contain more information per frame than 1.85:1 or 1.78:1 DVD's?"

Not from a pixel standpoint but in another manor of speaking. The black bars are very easy to compress so they take up very little bandwidth in the MPEG stream. That leaves more available data bandwidth for the actual active picture area.

Shawn

So your screen is about 52 x 92, mine is similar for 16:9 but for 21:9 it happens to be 51" x 120". We are not suggesting you narrow your viewing angle but to widen it, which is as it should be for 2.35 vs. 1.78.
Can't do it, ted. I installed the widest screen that would fit. And at my seating distance(s), wider would require turning heads, which is considered verbotten.

"And I'd like to read somewhere where we perceive a 2.35:1 image projected onto a 1.78:1 screen as anything other than a 2.35:1 image."

Who claimed that? What was said is the 2.35 movie ends up with an image size that is smaller in a constant width setup. That is the opposite of what CinemaScope was trying to achieve in the first place..... increasing the viewing angle for the audience.

With a CH setup the picture size widens for 'Scope movies.... just like it was supposed to do in the theaters.

"My 16:9 92" wide screen already stretches from left speaker to right speaker, so I've no room for a wider screen. And I've no interest in watching 1.78:1, 1.85:1 images at a width narrower than my screen."

Then 2.35 wouldn't fit in your width constrained room.

If you were height constrained it would be a different story.

"OK, but how is using more projector pixels adding more resolution"

Without the lens a 2.35 movie projecting an active image at roughly 1280x544. With the lens you are projecting the active image at 1280x720.

"Do 2.35:1 DVD's contain more information per frame than 1.85:1 or 1.78:1 DVD's?"

Not from a pixel standpoint but in another manor of speaking. The black bars are very easy to compress so they take up very little bandwidth in the MPEG stream. That leaves more available data bandwidth for the actual active picture area.

Shawn
If you think that re-creating the movie theater experience is what home theater is all about, then go for it. In my thinking, the only similarity is that I watch movies . . on a screen that, for the most part irregardless of the AR, fills the front wall with a stunning image. And the sound is far and away superior to any movie theater I've been in, including solid bass to 15Hz and below.

You're trying to convince me CH is the Holy Grail and all I'm trying to do is explain why it's not important to me.

"Width constrained?" :eek:

Can't do it, ted. I installed the widest screen that would fit. And at my seating distance(s), wider would require turning heads, which is considered verbotten.


If you are width limited then that is reasonable - though I've seen pictures of your setup - where there is a will.

The head turning argument is a specious one. I (and others, I dare say) sit about 1.1 screen widths for 2.35. My HT is setup such that 1.5 is the back of the house for 1.78; for 2.35 I live a little. I've yet to have anyone complain - they are too involved to notice. ;)

I think this topic has taken us too far afield from the thread's theme. Why don't we take this to the CH forum?

So On Topic: Panasonic's smoothscreen allows me to sit this close without seeing panel structure.

ted

Ted,

Are you running your lens with an external scaler or are you just running at 480p since the 900 won't stretch in 720p mode?

Rob

Ted,

Are you running your lens with an external scaler or are you just running at 480p since the 900 won't stretch in 720p mode?

Rob

Ick. ;)

HTPC with Zoomplayer (Aspect control), ffdshow (scaling & processing), Dscaler5 (Codec). I've a 700 and I'm not overly thrilled with the onboard scaler but many do utilize 480 into the PJ and then setting it in ZOOM mode (ZOOM1 I think).

I wouldn't let my bias stop you - this can be done in stages if it is the direction you wish to take. The software combination mentioned above does have some advantages. DScaler5 is a wonderful (free) codec for film source. ZP is an extremely customizable front end and ffshow though requiring whatever horsepower you can offer it offers many processing options.

Get a scaler (or HTPC) when the finances allow. More players and PJs in the future may have aspect control. A lens can always be used with another PJ if the throw works.

ted

"So its back to the drawing board, no?"

Not really. The main difference would be a user would need HD compatible scaling that can handle the AR changes needed for the CH. If you have that there should be no problem.

CH works fine for me with OTA HD sources or with D-VHS for example.

Shawn

Oooh..good to know.

Its just a shame that to properly do this there are so many hoops that must be jumped through :(

Pepar- I think you have one point here, that is - if your using a 16x9 screen then it's probably not going to have the advantage of CH. I believe most of the proponents have a 2.35:1 aspect ratio screen (as I do). You project onto the full screen (L,R,Top and bottom)when watching 2.35:1 movies and when watching 16x9 only 2/3 leaving some open space L/R sides. Just having the 2.35:1 aspect ratio screen has some big advantages IMO even if you don't go with the anamorphic lens. - Your best movies use the entire area of your screen!

Ted, Shawn and Dennis- The improved brightness, apparent resolution and not having to adjust the lens shift when changing formats is starting to become compelling argument. I use the 81C lens in dynamic mode which has improved the PQ and contrast ratio, what happens to the CR when you use a vertical compression anamorphic lens?

Last night, I watched Transporter 2 (in 2.35:1 using the Panny Zoom function, oppo 720P, 81C dynamic mode). I project out to 150" on neutral grey screen. I don't know the gain as my screen is unique (3rd generation of my own idea) and I don't have equipment to measure it. The transfer is good and l thought the PQ was quite good and overall very watchable. As you know there is no screen door (even close up) so this advantage of an anamorhic lens (with the Panny anyway) is pretty much mute IMO in this application.

What do you think management will think about this tweak (major upgrade?) after the AE900, 81C, oppo, outlaw 990, various cable and cable ends, and 5 channels of custom monoblock amps all in the 6 months? he he Thanks for the objective input. I'm going to have a look on videogone and ebay today . . . . . . ..

-Don

"Its just a shame that to properly do this there are so many hoops that must be jumped through "

That is mostly just during the setup of the system. Depending upon how you do it once you have it setup it is actually easy to use.

The ISCO II effectively turns the projector into a 1280x720p 2.35 AR projector. I set the Lumagen scaler for 720p out and set the OUTPUT AR at 2.35 to match what the projector is doing.

From there to deal with the different AR I just select the appropriate INPUT AR (into the scaler) depending upon what I'm watching. It is a single button press with discrete commands for 4x3, 4x3 LB, 16x9 and 2.35 (1.85 set to Zoom2).

Shawn

HTPC with Zoomplayer (Aspect control), ffdshow (scaling & processing), Dscaler5 (Codec). I've a 700 and I'm not overly thrilled with the onboard scaler but many do utilize 480 into the PJ and then setting it in ZOOM mode (ZOOM1 I think).
Very nice!

Pepar- I think you have one point here, that is - if your using a 16x9 screen then it's probably not going to have the advantage of CH. I believe most of the proponents have a 2.35:1 aspect ratio screen (as I do). You project onto the full screen (L,R,Top and bottom)when watching 2.35:1 movies and when watching 16x9 only 2/3 leaving some open space L/R sides. Just having the 2.35:1 aspect ratio screen has some big advantages IMO even if you don't go with the anamorphic lens. - Your best movies use the entire area of your screen!
If you have a 2.35:1 screen, then your path has already been chosen. Now, ease of use and better performance will lead you - push you - to the gear the others are using.

Very nice!

Thanks - yours is prettier. :)

I hope that with all the DRM clampdown going on we will still be able to roll our own units for hi def source. I would like to have a beautiful body like your Silverstone. I wabt to upgrade but have decided to wait until it all gets sorted out. (sniff)

ted

Wait waitwaitwait..are you saying you can do a 2.35:1 screen WITHOUT using a panamorph lens just by adjusting the zoom??

If I were to get a 2.35:1 screen, and then get it so 2.35:1 material fills the border, if I were to watch 16:9 or 4:3 material I'd just have to use the zoom to shrink the image down until its top./bottom borders were within the frame of the 2.35:1 screen?

Is that doable on the Panasonic? Or is it just fugly since you're throwing away the extra resolution by just zooming out a 2.35:1 image...?

Wait waitwaitwait..are you saying you can do a 2.35:1 screen WITHOUT using a panamorph lens just by adjusting the zoom??

If I were to get a 2.35:1 screen, and then get it so 2.35:1 material fills the border, if I were to watch 16:9 or 4:3 material I'd just have to use the zoom to shrink the image down until its top./bottom borders were within the frame of the 2.35:1 screen?

Is that doable on the Panasonic? Or is it just fugly since you're throwing away the extra resolution by just zooming out a 2.35:1 image...?
I'm sure you'll get an actual CH'er to reply, but from what I understand, you'll get the effect of CH, but not the performance benefit.

Ok, in that case a followup question: How large an image can a Panny 900 throw in the 2.35:1 aspect ratio before things start to go...poorly...??

Like a Carada grey screen thats 120" diagonal lets say...thats probably doable right?
In order to get a 100" diagonal 16:9 screen in the center of a 2.35:1 screen, how large
would that 2.35:1 screen actually have to be...<????>

Yes. You can just zoom the lens in or out ( but you also need shift the lens1/4" up or down as well) when you go from 2.35:1 to 16x9. It's not difficult and the Panny looks nice- this is poor man's constant height folks are talking about. This is what I do now. If you buy one of these fancy lenses, you don't have to fiddle with the projector (as much I'm guessing).

Thing is I'm trying to locate a used or B stock vertical compression lens (I think this is probably better for my set up vs. horizontal expansoin type), but I'm having trouble. What are the options for vertical compression lenses and what company sells for good price? It looks like the ISCO and Panamorph are only horizontal expansion type. is that correct?
-Don
-Don

Thing is I'm trying to locate a used or B stock vertical compression lens (I think this is probably better for my set up vs. horizontal expansoin type), but I'm having trouble.
Could be a result of what Shawn or Ted was saying; once you have a lens, you can (and WILL!) use it on subsequent projectors. Not many used ones go on the market.

HR- Also, the 2.35:1 on my set up 150" neutral grey screen with the 81C filter and dynamic mode, oppo DVD player looks great with a good quality transfer DVD. I think the 16x9 picture ends op being about 110". HD stuff off of Dish Network looks awesome in at 110" in 16x9. I have some DVD that are lousy transfers and these don't look so good projectred out to 150". As far as the anamorphic lenses go, I'm just trying to figure out if I can tweak this setup any more and get my DVD player to something closer to what Dish Network HD looks like. Problem is finding a good quality (vertical compression) anamorphic lens that doesn't cost as much as the projectror. -Don

As far as the anamorphic lenses go, I'm just trying to figure out if I can tweak this setup any more and get my DVD player to something closer to what Dish Network HD looks like. Problem is finding a good quality (vertical compression) anamorphic lens that doesn't cost as much as the projectror.
Closer perhaps, but standard definition sources will never look as good as true hi-def material. The resoluition just isn't there.

" It looks like the ISCO and Panamorph are only horizontal expansion type. is that correct?"

ISCO is horizontal expansion. Panamorph traditionally was vertical compression but they recently also added a horizontal expansion lens to their offerings. Prismasonic is another company that sells anamorphics lenses too. They originally had both types but now I think they just sell the horizontal expansion.

Shawn

HR- Also, the 2.35:1 on my set up 150" neutral grey screen with the 81C filter and dynamic mode, -Don

Yes, but you are obviously a nut. :)
Don, my big concern with an image of that size will be the Ft Lamberts coming off that screen as the bulb hits a few hundred hrs and has lost 30% of its Lumens.

I utilize an 81EF on my 700, so I've a good sense of the utility of CC filters for calibration and CR enhancement. When I bought my 700 I knew that I would be purchasing an anamorphic lens but was going to live with zooming until the dollars flew in the window. After about 200 hrs on the lamp, it had lost about an F-Stop, so to maintain some brightness in 2.35 situations (and keep my filter), the window magically opened wider and a lens came in.

btw, why do you feel vertical squeeze is better in your situation as I personally fell a Horizontal stretch is easier to implement?

Apologies folks, I will endeavour to make this the last Off Topic question.

ted

You can access the service menu the same way as with the AE700 (highlight OSD and push and hold down the select button), but it only gives you some flicker and panel adjust options. For advanced color control, you need calibration equipment and then use the CCM functions.


I didn't see this posted but there is another service menu that is entered by the super secret key sequence: "POWER" then select "cancel" then UP arriw, DOWN arrow, UP arrow, DOWN arrow and then ENTER.


From here you can access the self check menu where the lamp reset counter resides. Some other stuff as well.

I didn't see this posted but there is another service menu that is entered by the super secret key sequence: "POWER" then select "cancel" then UP arriw, DOWN arrow, UP arrow, DOWN arrow and then ENTER.


From here you can access the self check menu where the lamp reset counter resides. Some other stuff as well.

That's interesting. Are the convergence patterns in there as well?

ted

I didn't see this posted but there is another service menu that is entered by the super secret key sequence: "POWER" then select "cancel" then UP arriw, DOWN arrow, UP arrow, DOWN arrow and then ENTER.


From here you can access the self check menu where the lamp reset counter resides. Some other stuff as well.

This sequence doesn't work on my unit.

Wait waitwaitwait..are you saying you can do a 2.35:1 screen WITHOUT using a panamorph lens just by adjusting the zoom??
Sure thing...that's what I'm doing now with the ample zoom and lens shift. I've got a Panamorph 752 that's not being used since I haven't invested in a scaler yet (seeing how HD- DVD, etc. shapes up). Smoothscreen makes this zooming possible without the SDE you might expect from larger pixels, I'm ~10' away from a 7' wide screen and there's nothing in the way of pixels or SDE...nada. I have tried the Panamorph with the 900, and it works fine (aside from being squished w/o a scaler). There's not nearly the improvement I saw when installing it in front of my 4805, though. And, of course, I've got full source resolution for all sources this way.
The black bars that are pushed above and below the screen when zoomed this way just disappear into the velvet curtains I have above the screen and the dark wall below.

That's interesting. Are the convergence patterns in there as well?

ted


No (at least I did'nt see it) and ther isn't a panel adjust either. I think the only thing useful is probably the additional items on the self check page which looks more like the AE700 page.

It's interesting that the service manual makes no mention of getting to the other nenu via the OSD . I wonder what else lurks inside the PJ.

Here is the text from the service manual on this menu.

2 Ext Option
This projector has EXT OPTION in addition to standard on-screen menus.
• There are SELF CHECK and FLICKER ADJ for service, etc.
2.1. Procedure to enter EXT OPTION
1. When the projector is power ON, press "POWER" button on the main unit or remote control unit to display "POWER OFF" confirmation screen.
2. Press the right-arrow" "button to select "CANCEL" in the "POWER OFF" confirmation screen.
3. On the main unit or remote control unit, press the buttons in order of up-arrow" ",down-arrow" ", up-arrow"
down-arrow" "and "ENTER".
(When the "ENTER" button is pressed, "EXT OPTION" menu is displayed.)
2.2. EXT OPTION Menu and Functions

• FAN FULLMODE
Setting the cooling fan motor rotation speed
- Switching ON "FAN FULLMODE", the rotation level of the fan becomes high-speed rotation (fixed). Moreover, when "FAN FULLMODE" is ON, changing "FAN CONTROL" in OPTION becomes impossible (setting FAN FULLMODE is given priority more than FAN CONTROL).
• AUTO SETUP
Setting AUTO SETUP mode
- NORMAL: To set the normal mode (the dot clock is adjusted strictly)
- SPECIAL: To set the special mode (the dot clock is adjusted roughly)
* Do not change the initial setting (NORMAL).
• SELF CHECK
To enter the self-check mode
• FLICKER ADJ
To enter the flicker adjustment mode
• 525i SD
When non-standard signal of 525i/625i is inputted (AV amplifier, etc.), synchronization might be disordered according to connected equipment. In this case, set 525i SD to ON.
• 525p OS
When 525p/625p signal is inputted, reflection noise (vertical striated beat) might be generated according to connected equipment. In this case, set 525p OS to ON. However, the resolution decreases a little.
• HPLL
When non-standard signal of VIDEO/S-VIDEO is inputted (VCR, VHD, etc.), horizontal synchronization might be disordered according to connected equipment. In this case, set HPLL to OFF.

This sequence doesn't work on my unit.

Firmware? I'll lcheck my PJ tonight and see what it is.

My AE900 has MM: 1.04 F:1.02 and IM:1.01

My AE900 has MM: 1.04 F:1.02 and IM:1.01

The firmware's not displayed in the service menu I can get to (the "OSD" one), so I have no idea what it is. When did you buy your AE900? What's the manufactured date? It is a U.S. model, right?

The firmware's not displayed in the service menu I can get to (the "OSD" one), so I have no idea what it is. When did you buy your AE900? What's the manufactured date? It is a U.S. model, right?

So you are unable to get to the POWER/CANCEL menu that jazz refers to?

ted

Ted- brightness is fine at 150" on my screen in light controlled room. Your probably right that if I loose 30% as the projector bulb ages that I'm not going to be happy with the brightness. Another plus for the anamorphic lens although there is always high lamp mode to use as well. Perhaps this is my naivete, but I thought that vertical squeeze had less potential for color abberations and visual artefacts than than horizontal expansion because you would be taking the image that the LCD projects and making it smaller. Horizontal expansion takes the pixels that the LCD displays and makes them bigger. I know both can work, but somewhere I read that optics required to to horizontal expansion well are much more expensive. Since i'm trying to maximize PQ on a budget, I was gavitating to the vertical compression technology.
Does anyone know the difference between a panamorph consumer lens U15 and the commercial lens U100? Is the the consumer lens junk or fine to us in my application? Or should I save and wiat for good buy on the U100? Why is everyone here going to horizontal expansion?-Don

"Why is everyone here going to horizontal expansion?"

There are a couple of advantages to it IMO.

If you have an existing mounted projector and screen and move to CH then horizontal expansion is a lot easier if you go with a 2.35 screen that is the same height as what you had before. You don't need to alter the throw of the projector... you put the lens in front of it and the image will now basically already fill the CH screen with your existing throw distance and zoom setting.

With a vertical compression lens if you have enough zoom available you could deal with the new larger screen. If the range of the zoom isn't sufficient you would have to remout the projector further back.

In my case my original projector was a very long throw model. The only way to be able to project the 2.35 width screen I wanted with the throw range I had available was to use the horizontal expansion lens. In some settings this also gives a side benefit of having the projector closer to the 'wide' end of its zoom lens which in some projectors cases means more light through the lens.

In a CH setup where the lens is moved in/out of the optic path depending on the AR being show a horizontal expansion lens works easily there while vertical compression does not.

Shawn

My AE900 has MM: 1.04 F:1.02 and IM:1.01

Where do you find this info?

No (at least I did'nt see it) and ther isn't a panel adjust either. I think the only thing useful is probably the additional items on the self check page which looks more like the AE700 page.

It's interesting that the service manual makes no mention of getting to the other nenu via the OSD . I wonder what else lurks inside the PJ.

Here is the text from the service manual on this menu.

2 Ext Option
This projector has EXT OPTION in addition to standard on-screen menus.
• There are SELF CHECK and FLICKER ADJ for service, etc.
2.1. Procedure to enter EXT OPTION
1. When the projector is power ON, press "POWER" button on the main unit or remote control unit to display "POWER OFF" confirmation screen.
2. Press the right-arrow" "button to select "CANCEL" in the "POWER OFF" confirmation screen.
3. On the main unit or remote control unit, press the buttons in order of up-arrow" ",down-arrow" ", up-arrow"
down-arrow" "and "ENTER".
(When the "ENTER" button is pressed, "EXT OPTION" menu is displayed.)
2.2. EXT OPTION Menu and Functions

• FAN FULLMODE
Setting the cooling fan motor rotation speed
- Switching ON "FAN FULLMODE", the rotation level of the fan becomes high-speed rotation (fixed). Moreover, when "FAN FULLMODE" is ON, changing "FAN CONTROL" in OPTION becomes impossible (setting FAN FULLMODE is given priority more than FAN CONTROL).
• AUTO SETUP
Setting AUTO SETUP mode
- NORMAL: To set the normal mode (the dot clock is adjusted strictly)
- SPECIAL: To set the special mode (the dot clock is adjusted roughly)
* Do not change the initial setting (NORMAL).
• SELF CHECK
To enter the self-check mode
• FLICKER ADJ
To enter the flicker adjustment mode
• 525i SD
When non-standard signal of 525i/625i is inputted (AV amplifier, etc.), synchronization might be disordered according to connected equipment. In this case, set 525i SD to ON.
• 525p OS
When 525p/625p signal is inputted, reflection noise (vertical striated beat) might be generated according to connected equipment. In this case, set 525p OS to ON. However, the resolution decreases a little.
• HPLL
When non-standard signal of VIDEO/S-VIDEO is inputted (VCR, VHD, etc.), horizontal synchronization might be disordered according to connected equipment. In this case, set HPLL to OFF.
I got mine to work,
Same version as jazz. The self check menu show a lot of the same things as the 700 such as the number of times the PJ has been turned on .
The number of actual hours, and hours on low mode.

My iris' OK label is in RED.
This may be the reason it makes the imfamous howling sound

Wow thats strange.
I just checked it again, now the iris OK is no longer in RED.

The firmware's not displayed in the service menu I can get to (the "OSD" one), so I have no idea what it is. When did you buy your AE900? What's the manufactured date? It is a U.S. model, right?

Mine is Oct. 2005 manuf. date. U.S. version.
I got in to the new menu.

The firmware's not displayed in the service menu I can get to (the "OSD" one), so I have no idea what it is. When did you buy your AE900? What's the manufactured date? It is a U.S. model, right?

My PJ is a reletuvely recent one, I guess (where is the manufacture date?).

It was a replacement PJ from Heartland services I received last week.

Here is a link to the AE900 service manual on my web page. It probably won't be there forever, its kinda' big (6+ MB) Happy reading.

http://members.cox.net/uggabugga/AE900_servicemanual.pdf

Shawn- Thanks. This explains the key horizontal expansion lens advantage over vertical compression that i was missing. i.e. - that for constant height you just move the lens out of the light path and 16x9 image fits without any fiddling with the lens. This sounds slick, but I[m firstly concerned about PQ with ease of use a close second. After all I didn't go through all the trouble of tweaking the projector with 81C filter and gamma settings to ge tthe colors to look great only to loose some of this through another lens. - Forget the utility benefit you correctly pointed out above for the moment- Do you think the lower end horizontal expansion lenses provide the same PQ as vertical compression of the same quality range ? You do agree that purchase of something like an ISCOIII would be nuts for the AE 900, correct? Which specificd brand lens and model would you match with the the AE900? Much thanks for your obervations and objective opinion. -Don

"- that for constant height you just move the lens out of the light path and 16x9 image fits without any fiddling with the lens."

You can move the lens away (for full resolution 1.78 viewing) but you don't have to. I leave the lens in place all the time for ease of use and just deal with it in my scaler. At some point I might build a motorized mount to move then lens in and out of the optical path and then setting up the appropriate memories in my scaler for the different output ARs to the projector.

"After all I didn't go through all the trouble of tweaking the projector with 81C filter and gamma settings to ge tthe colors to look great only to loose some of this through another lens."

I'm using an 81EF through my lens. You gain brightness on 2.35 movies, not loose brightness.

"Do you think the lower end horizontal expansion lenses provide the same PQ as vertical compression of the same quality range ?"

I haven't seen the vertical compression lenses in my system. I had an earlier Prismasonic H500 and the ISCO II is noticeably sharper then it was. The H500 also had more CA. The ISCO in turn has a touch more geometric distortion.

"You do agree that purchase of something like an ISCOIII would be nuts for the AE 900, correct?"

If you were planning on always using a CH setup and were planning on moving to a 1080p projector within a couple of years the ISCO III might not be totally nuts... just fairly obsessive. That lens is supposed to be so good and with such a large aperature it would be useable with most digital projectors. If you are planning on sticking with the AE900 for 10 years or something then the ISCO III likely doesn't make sense.

Shawn

Here is a link to the AE900 service manual on my web page. It probably won't be there forever, its kinda' big (6+ MB) Happy reading.

http://members.cox.net/uggabugga/AE900_servicemanual.pdf

gracias

So you are unable to get to the POWER/CANCEL menu that jazz refers to?

ted

That's correct, but looking at the service manual, using the OSD access takes me to a similar menu. I'll have to check and see what the differences are other than not displaying the firmware version in the "Self Check" part of the menu. For those who can access the service menu through Power/Cancel etc., does the OSD access work?

The manufactured date should be on the serial number nameplate on the bottom of the unit. Mine was from the first shipment from Japan, so that could be why it used the AE700 access.

Thanks for the service manual jazz. :)

Thanks for the service manual. I have been on a trip to china and Hong Kong so it has been hard to get broadband in all places. I have downloaded it to my laptop. It is amazing to see some of the new gadgets and technonology. Many DVD players with 1080i and to see the China HD DVD system already out. I was tempted to pick up a new Skyworth player but it only had component our PC output. No DVI or HDMI. I would have loved to try it with the AE900. The best one cost about $150US.

Regarding your trip to of China
did you see the new VMD /EVD format and Chinese LCD TV's they are making a lot of progress and beat the US, Japanese and Koreans at this game and produce a product for cheaper prices all they need to do is improve the quality and they will take over the world electronics market

I've posted this in the "Official Thread" but it hasn't garnered much response. What type of absolute black level are you getting from the projector for those NOT using a filter?

On our 133" matte diagonal screen, when there is an all black field, the screen is still "illuminated" I admit that the contrast is much better than our old sharp xv-s55u, yet the overal black level does not seem that much lower. In fact, this might be higher, due to the 900's higher brightness.

What are other users' experience in this regard?

ALSO:

On low lamp mode, i'm noticing a subtle flicker that occurs in the image, even when the image is stationary and there are no changes. The bulb has about 35 hours on it. Is this something that will dissappear over time?

David,

Even with a filter the screen is going to be illuminated on a total blackout in a dark room. The darker your room is the more obvious it is going to be.

" i'm noticing a subtle flicker that occurs in the image, even when the image is stationary and there are no changes. The bulb has about 35 hours on it. Is this something that will dissappear over time? "

Have you tried adjusting the 'flicker' settings in the hidden menu? Pause your DVD player one a screen with a lot of skin tones and other colors in it. Go to the OSD option and hold down the OK button for 3 or 5 seconds and another menu will come up. Go to the flicker settings and adjust R,G,B to reduce any flicker in them.

Shawn

David,

Even with a filter the screen is going to be illuminated on a total blackout in a dark room. The darker your room is the more obvious it is going to be.

" i'm noticing a subtle flicker that occurs in the image, even when the image is stationary and there are no changes. The bulb has about 35 hours on it. Is this something that will dissappear over time? "

Have you tried adjusting the 'flicker' settings in the hidden menu? Pause your DVD player one a screen with a lot of skin tones and other colors in it. Go to the OSD option and hold down the OK button for 3 or 5 seconds and another menu will come up. Go to the flicker settings and adjust R,G,B to reduce any flicker in them.

Shawn

Thanks for the response. As for the black issue, yes, our room is completely light controlled, which is likely why the all "black" image makes the screen appear highly illuminated. It is not subtle.

As for the flickering, it seems to occur only on low lamp mode. I have done the flicker adjustments.

David,

"yes, our room is completely light controlled, which is likely why the all "black" image makes the screen appear highly illuminated. It is not subtle. "

Yup, my room is the same way with velvet drapes covering all the walls which really suck up any reflected light from the screen. On 'black' the screen glows. I think the 81EF cuts the black level in half but it is still there. That is pretty much just the way it is with digital projectors at this point.

The only units that can do true fade to blacks are CRT projectors.

Shawn

Thanks for the response. As for the black issue, yes, our room is completely light controlled, which is likely why the all "black" image makes the screen appear highly illuminated. It is not subtle.
The 900 does not have a great black level.

Have you tried adjusting the 'flicker' settings in the hidden menu? Pause your DVD player one a screen with a lot of skin tones and other colors in it. Go to the OSD option and hold down the OK button for 3 or 5 seconds and another menu will come up. Go to the flicker settings and adjust R,G,B to reduce any flicker in them.
Have you tried the flicker settings from the other secret menu (Power, move to Cancel, up, down, up, down, enter)? This one displays a full red, green, or blue field which I felt made flicker adjustments easier to do.

Have you tried the flicker settings from the other secret menu (Power, move to Cancel, up, down, up, down, enter)? This one displays a full red, green, or blue field which I felt made flicker adjustments easier to do.

I have done both flickers, in the OSD menu and the power down menu.

If the "black level" is simply as it is, that's fine. I just was under the impression that there was a marked difference from past projectors. I'm mroe suprised because if it is as it is on my 133" screen, it must be significantly more noticeable on smaller screens.

Just wanted to know if anybody else was having this problem with there 900 or if they know if it is a bulb or other issue.Last night i was watching Revenge Of The Sith,about the last half hour i started to notice a flicker in the picture,would flash repeadily not severely but enough to notice and be distracting.I only have 55 hours on the bulb.It lasted for about 20 seconds and that was it.The next movie i poped in was Lords Of War.Same problem but now occurring more often and it is really noticeable and starting to bother me.I have tried flciker test and turned off DI again but still comes and go's.Does this sound like bulb failure already or something else and has anybody else had this problem.Looks like i might have to send it in for service but i cant believe it.I had the AE700 before and had no problems what soever with the lastest firmware.I never had a bulb issue with that unit either.I also noticeghosting around certain images clearly around peoples bodies or other objects when viewing and almost believe that is either a convergence problem or panel allignment.The best thing i notice is that i have had 0 vertical banding on my AE900 which i was overwhelmed by since i did have it on my AE700 but never the fast flashing going from dim to bright.I purchased both my units from Visual Apex.If any one has a possible awnswer or anoteh test i can check i am all ears and i will report back!


Thanks

2.35:1 revisited. I’ve done some A/B testing of my new Oppo DVD player and AE900. The PQ is best using the oppo to output 720P to the AE900 (using DVI/HDMI). Someone had suggested using 480P output from the oppo and letting the AE900 scale the picture, but my testing clearly indicates that the picture is sharper using 720P output (DVI). This also means that an anamorphic lens can’t be used efficiently with the AE900 and Oppo combo unless you want to use the 480P output. Of course you could take a hit on sharpness or buy an external scaler with the anamorphic lens. But the cost of these two things (anamorphic lens+scaler) is more than double the price of the projector and from my testing the benefits to PQ would be nebulous at best. It would be nice if AE900 had a vertical stretch mode with a 720P signal, but even then, I can’t see how the PQ would improve with another piece (or two!) of glass in for the image to pass through. Plus after extensive A/B testing of the various AE900 output modes and oppo 480P and 720P outputs, it’s difficult to see how the vertically stretched and then corrected image will add any PQ over what the PJ can do on it’s own. There is no visible improvement in detail that can be observed by using all 720 panel vertical lines vs. the 16x9 mode with balack bars (which only uses 70% of the panel for a 2.35:1 picture)- none what-so-ever it must be because the Genesis/Faraduja chip in the Oppo does such a nice job deinterlacing, upconverison and scaling.

Bottom line is that in my application, I think the best way to view 2.35:1 with the AE900 linked to the Oppo with 720P output and AE900 in 16x9 mode. You need to manually zoom back to fill a 2.35:1 screen and there are black bars present, but the aspect ratio is perfect, sharpness and color fidelity remain intact and the masking completely absorbs the light in the small amount of light in the region of the black bars.

I guess if your projector is 10 feet in the air above your head and difficult to get to (to do the manual zoom in and out), then you could trade off some PQ for the utility of a motorized high quality anamorphic lens and a scaler, but for me switching from 16x9 to 2.35;1 manually isn’t a big deal. The AE900 is a fine 720P projector, but sharpness has no wiggle room IMO due to smoothscreen technology (which I like BTW) and it benefits from the Genesis/Faraduja deinterlacing, upconverison and scaling of the inexpensive Oppo DVD player. Sending an upconverted 720P signal from the oppo, using 16x9 mode, 81C filter and manually zooming the 720P picture out (to place the black bars off the screen) to fill 2.35:1 screen works perfectly. With HD off the dish or good quality DVD the picture this projector with the 81C filter is able to produce a great picture.

I don't have any flicker problem that I've noticed and I already have 110 hours on my PJ.

"Ghosting around certain images clearly around peoples bodies or other objects" when viewing is probably a separate problem. I get some of that on poor quality transfer DVDs. To test if you have a real problem use a HD signal from your dish/cable or put in a high quality DVD. If you still have the problem with clean input signal, then maybe you do have a real problem.

Hey everyone.

I wanted to share my experiences attempting to calibrate the 900. I got it last thursday and had been tweaking it by eye with Avia for a few nights. As a quick background, I've owned the panasonic 500, 700, and currently the 4805. I tweaked the 4805 with an iris, mimicking the design of the sharp12K. Although I dont have a light meter, the contrast added via the iris was quite evident on screen. The point being that I had grown accustomed to watching a much higher contrast than the stock 4805 could provide.

Having owned the 700 until November of last year, I had already purchased the 81EF filter and was using it on the 700. I ended up getting rid of the 700 because the contrast wasn't quite there v the modded 4805, even with the 81EF. At the time, my only source was DVD so I didn't feel I was missing much in EDTV rez. The image was coarser, even at 2X width on the 4805 and rainbows and SDE would rear there ugly heads. I loved the smoothness, lack of SDE, no rainbows, and no dithering on the 700. unfortunately, the lower contrast, EE, and FPN had me giving the boot to the 700. I knew the 900 was just around the corner. I was just waiting for the right time to buy. (of course the $400 rebate plus BB card help :-) )

Now for the 900. After trying just about every posted setting for grayscale after adding the 81EF, good Grayscale tracking and shadow detail evaded me. I tried eyeballing the grayscale settings and achieved what looked to be very flat tracking. Unfortuantely, shadow detail was very poor. I had accurately set contrast and brightness, but I was crushing balck detail. And, to compound problems, occasionally certain, mid level grays were tinged w/ red(ie. flesh tones) After all the professional reviews, I knew that my settings were bad. Another problem I noticed was that I could get gray's flat in IRE's in veritcal and horizontal bands, but they would be off in ramps and especially noticeable in gamma stripes. This was driving me nuts. I could not understand why there was such a variation. I knew that I had brightness non-uniformity, but I was trying to correct for that by using all of the available gray patterns. I then remembered Eric saying that he was finding the gamma tracking more important. I also recalled in the WSR review of either the HD2K or the Faroudja clone(Gregr I think) that the only way to get flat grayscale was to use the RGB Gamma Gains/Brightness and not the RGB grayscale controls. That's when it hit me. I wasnt getting good grayscale and gamma simultaneously because I was focusing too much on mazimizing contrast and grayscale flatness and not on proper gamma. So the solution??
I decided to hookup the 4805 next to the 900. One of the biggest pluses of the 4805 is that it has very accurate greyscale and gamma OTB. So I set it up and began trying to match the grayscale and gamma as exactly as I could to the 4805 6500K setting and film gamma. Also, knowing that the 900 wont track 90IRE and above flat if the 20IRE-90IRE are, I turned up the White peaking to 100 on the 4805 to mimick the 900's Cyan push in the high IRE's. I know that the WP also screws with the high end gamma, but that doesnt personally bother me as much as whacky gamma at the mid and lower because of shadow detail. So I spent the next 3-4 hours playing with the grayscale and gamma of the 900 and going through the many different test patterns.
Finally, at 2am, I achieved the best grayscale and gamma that I thought I could possibly muster. In the end, I had to back down contrast from my original setting of 10 to 0. Brightness went from -2 to + 3. (And being that I am at work and not at home, I cant remember the Gamma and RGB grayscale settings I settled on. I can write those down and post them tomorrow if anyone is interested. But, as many, amny have posted, these settings are very unique and I believe can rarely be used for another pj.) Back to the calibration.....I had tried to up the master contrast and push the red gain into the positive numbers, but that was causing the gamma issues. I could get acceptable grayscale but as I said, the gamma was suffering. Backing off the contrast flattened things out for both the grayscale and the gamma simultaneuously.
So, I have learned a lot. I really wished I had the proper tools for the job. Fortunately, I had the 4805 on hand and was able to almost perfectly reproduce it's grayscale and gamma on the 900. I also adjusted the primaries on 900 according to Eric's settings. Those settins seemed to transfer very well. I put up color fields to compare the primaries. After desaturating red, yellow, and green. the 900 looked spot-on. according to prioir reviews of the 4805, red and blue were almost deadon NTSC color, while cyan, magenta, yellow, and green were all undersaturated. THe 900's primaries and secondaries look perfect. Based on all the online reviews posted here and elsewhere, the only color point that is off is green which is slightly desaturated and yellow. But, comparing the two, the 900 is clearly more accurate and saturated w/obeing oversaturated. The Color Management Function is a great tool!!
After all of that, I flipped it over to AVP playing on HBOHD. I watched only briefly, but it looked wonderful. Grayscale looked good. Gamm looked good. Color Points looked good. Contrast looked good. I plan on doing a lot more viewing over the next few nights. DVD standby's along w/ some HD to evaluate the new settings. My only complaint, is that I still have slightly, and I emphasize slightly, too much green in low IRE's and slightly too much red in the mid IRE's around 60IRE. BUt, very, very, very slight and hardly noticeable last night in viewing. Like I said, the coming nights viewing real material and not test patterns should tell the tale, but AVP looked spot on.
A few final points. EE is slight to non-existant on HD. At 480P, it's still there but 720P I can't see it. 1080i is softer but 720p is razor sharp. Sharp, sharp, sharp. Those who worry about smoothscreen, dont. SS eliminates SDE but has no adverse effects on image detail or clarity. The much talked about softness in the 700/900 is from processing. The 900 isn't the best handling 480p or 1080i, but is a stellarperformer with 720p signals. I've set the HDTV REc to 720p for the best image possible from 720p sources and have to settle for a softer image from 1080i. Although I am not an expert, I believe if panasonic added RGB Gamma controls to the 900's successor, it could be calibrated to a higher contrast ratio and even more accurate grayscale and gamma.
Hope you enjoyed the read and I'll be happy to answer any questions that I can.

My head just started to leak brain fluid after reading that :D

:D Sorry for the looooong post. I wanted to share my experience but I also think that it was somewhat theraputic to vent my frustrations :)

What picture setting are you using with the filter, Dynamic or Normal? Gamma is particularly difficult to tame with Dynamic, somewhat less so with Normal.

Sorry, forgot that. I initially started out in Video because cine4home's Video mode RGB Histogram showed the most linear RGB. But, I switched to Normal last night after struggling so long with the dark gamma. Mike, I know that you had great results from Normal so I figured i should go with the Pro. :-D
Let me take this opportunity to thank you and everyone else for the help. Especially you Mike, you've gone the extra mile for a lot of us.
I used to not mind crushing black detail as much, but now I'm in the camp where I'm willing to give up SOME black level to get detail down low. But, with this last calibration, I think I finally enjoy the best of both worlds; excellent blacks and good shadow detail. I think gamma manipulation down low is the key after reading about how the crt'ers turn of the tubes for black but then manipulate gamma to regain detail. That, i believe is the key.

One more thing Mike, can you see any benefit to contrast if panasonic would add RGB Gamma controls? I really do think it would be possible to stretch the contrast on this thing if gamma would cooperate......but i'm no expert. Thanks!!

One more thing Mike, can you see any benefit to contrast if panasonic would add RGB Gamma controls? I really do think it would be possible to stretch the contrast on this thing if gamma would cooperate......but i'm no expert. Thanks!!

Absolutely. That would be a big help. Eric's post here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7008171&&#post7008171) about using the Lumagen's ability to set multiple RGB and gamma points shows how nicely it could be dialed in.

You can get decent gamma and greyscale tracking with the AE900 controls as they are, but as you've found, it's not easy to do without the proper equipment. Attached are the gamma and RGB% charts from my last settings.

Thanks again Mike!!
I have the same thing at 90IRE and above. Red drops severely and green is in excess. But that doesn't bother me much in anything other than test patterns. The only other complaint as of now is that 0IRE is cool compared to the 4805.....but then again my non-ISF'd 4805, if anything is warmer across the color temp than D65 especially in the O-10IRE range. Overall, at this point, I am VERY happy with the results. As I said, I wasnt up to doing a lot of familiar DVD scenes that I'm familiar with because it was so late, but at this point, I can't believe that the color could get much better(although deep down I know an ISF would improve it). Grayscale and gamma OTB have always been Infocus's strong points as you already know and being able to match it so closely on the 900 makes me very pleased.

Daniel- Great work, but you must have been completely drained by the end of the night. I am interested in you reposting all your settings in one concise post for us to try. I've found that you certainly can't use AVIA to set brightness. Well you can, but then you have to increase it a few notches to get shadow detail back. I think the reason is that AVIA uses a half black/half white screen for this setting and the iris setting on the AE900 changes with the overall amount of light (i.e. that 1/2 white screen is much brighter overall than most dark scenes you are trying to optimize). For brightness I put in a nice dark movie like Blade2 and increase level to where you get best balance (based on your preference) of shadow detail and black. Looking forward to trying your settings. -Don

Thanks Don. I'll definitely write those down tonight and post them tomorrow. I can't wait to view some dark, difficult scenes. I am exhausted though. Only got about 3 1/2 hrs of sleep....but it's gonna be worth it. I am with you. It's a compromise to set black level. Either set it low and for a little more contrast or bump it a few notches higher to retrieve shadow detail. But, as I learned last night......gamma is very important as well.

For those who can access the service menu through Power/Cancel etc., does the OSD access work?

I also got them working, thanks to Jazz. I added a screenshot to
my AE900 page (http://i.org.helsinki.fi/lassial/articles/audio_video/Panasonic_AE900) which allows view the differences quite well. I think that the flicker adjustments are identical in both menus.

I have three questions.
1). For 120" screen, what will be my 900's optimum throw distance if ceiling mounted?

2). Do you think it is better to locate the OPPO DVD player close to the 900 projector using a 3' DVItoDMI cable and run a 25' digital coaxial audio cable connecting the JVCRX402B receiver for 7.1 sound processing. or locate the Oppo close to the JVC using 3' digital optical cable and run a 25' DVItoHDMI cable connecting the 900 projector for video processing?

3). If I don't have a filter, what will be the best settings for the OPPO player and 900 projector?

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

OK, most of this is way above my head and/or eyes ... I'm pretty happy with my pic after just going through the basic guided calibrattions on the Avia disk. I'm interested in possibly trying to tweak a bit more but when I went into the more advanced stuff on the Avia disk I had no clue what I was looking at. Besides the basic guided set up on Avia, are there any other 'must do's' on the disk? Again, I'm happy with what I have now, but if I can make it look even better without going to over the top I'd like to give it a shot.

I have three questions.
1). For 120" screen, what will be my 900's optimum throw distance if ceiling mounted?


Go over to www.projectorcentral.com and use the Projection calculator. Set your diagonal screen size to 120in and then you'll see the (rather large) range...its probably something like 15-25 feet (a guess) in your range. Optically, the less ZOOM you have to use the less glass in the optics you are using, which means less of a chance of any focus uniformity issues.


2). Do you think it is better to locate the OPPO DVD player close to the 900 projector using a 3' DVItoDMI cable and run a 25' digital coaxial audio cable connecting the JVCRX402B receiver for 7.1 sound processing. or locate the Oppo close to the JVC using 3' digital optical cable and run a 25' DVItoHDMI cable connecting the 900 projector for video processing?


Can you even get a 25 foot run of DVI Cable?? I thought DVI/HDMI topped out at 15 feet or so before requiring a booster/repeater...???

You certainly can, but the DVI spec is 15' or so. Anything above that and you are taking your chances based on the quality of the cable, the strength of your signal, etc; I have run quality cables to double that length without issue.

Yes, long DVI/HDMI cables are being sold by monoprice and many others. I recently got a 25' from Monoprice.

Also, I have tried the calculator at projectorcentral, but it does not have 2.35 to 1 aspect ratio in the formula. Thanks

For Mike or anyone else who has tried various filters with thier AE900, which filter, irregardless of lumen output, produces the flattest greyscale tracking and good gamma? 81C, 81EF, CC40R,and in which mode? Again light output is not an issue, I'm just looking for best greyscale and gamma response.

Thanks,
Moe

hey guys. sorry for not checking in yesterday but the last two nights have been extremely busy for me. unfortunately, i wasn't able to get the settings recorded, but i'll do my best to write them down tonight and post them tomorrow. again, sorry, but i havent forgotten.

" Also, I have tried the calculator at projectorcentral, but it does not have 2.35 to 1 aspect ratio in the formula. Thanks "

You can still use it.

If you aren't using an anamorphic lens or are using a vertical compression lens just figure out your throw by using the screens width in the calculator.

If you are using a horizontal expansion lens figure out your throw by using the screens height in the calculator.

Shawn

The 900 does not have a great black level.

Meaning that the high level of light leakage on a black field is the norm.

Meaning that the high level of light leakage on a black field is the norm.
Not being an owner, and now not going to be one - HS51a for me! - I was trying to not be too pointed about it and not get flamed . . . :)

Not being an owner, and now not going to be one - HS51a for me! - I was trying to not be too pointed about it and not get flamed . . . :)

Why you, you, you..........you.

To paraphrase some of your spiritual mentors....."Aren't we all Bozos on the same bus?"

Btw what's all that chicken wire stuff on the screen? :p

running away fast,
ted

Why you, you, you..........you.

To paraphrase some of your spiritual mentors....."Aren't we all Bozos on the same bus?"

Btw what's all that chicken wire stuff on the screen? :p

running away fast,
ted
Ahh, ted, I'm going to miss our wrestling matches. :) Perhaps you'll subscribe to the 50/51/51a/60 - is that an identiity crisis, or what? - threads.

I have a one "word" reply to your chicken wire crack: IMX. Poof! No more SDE. For that matter, no more pixels. Enjoy your grey levels and rebate hassles! :cool:

Ahh, ted, I'm going to miss our wrestling matches. :)

EEEYEWWWW.
I thought that was going to remain private. :)

Perhaps you'll subscribe to the 50/51/51a/60 - is that an identiity crisis, or what? - threads.

Back in the Day the HS50 was in fact my first choice but here north o' the lakes the price differential was considerably more than down there. Plus I wanted an anamorphic lens. I chose the 700 plus the Prismasonic

I have a one "word" reply to your chicken wire crack: IMX. Poof! No more SDE. For that matter, no more pixels. Enjoy your grey levels and rebate hassles!

I thought those were no longer made. anyway I already have an IMX work alike - it's built in. Panasonic calls it "smoothscreen" I call it a prism. :p I don't buy toys because of money back guarantees, and the CR ain't perfect but I've got it tuned pretty well. What do you think CR will be like this fall when I'm looking at upgrading. :D

Enjoy your new box, I'm sure to see you around.
ted

For Mike or anyone else who has tried various filters with thier AE900, which filter, irregardless of lumen output, produces the flattest greyscale tracking and good gamma? 81C, 81EF, CC40R,and in which mode?

Getting back to the subject of this thread, I'd say that the CC40R probably provides the best greyscale and gamma. However, it doesn't give you the best CR. I've been using the 81C most recently and feel it's the best compromise. With any of the filters, I've had the best results with the Normal setting. Dynamic gives you a little more brightness, but everything else is hard to tame. YMMV

Pepar= I took the tour through your HT project and I'm impressed with the level of detail. I built my media room 2 years ago and I've spent the last 9 months doing a ground up (literally) equipment upgrade- equitech balanced power transformers, monoblock amplifiers, outlaw 990 preamp, Dishnetwork HD receiver, Klipsch reference speakers, oppo digital DVD player and the AE900 is really the piece I am impressed with the most. I'm sure the Sony is a nice projector, but don't knock the AE900- (bang for the buck, for sure is something to write home about) . I'm getting an awesome picture (81C lens and normal mode) black level is quite good in my set up using a neutral grey screen in a light controlled room. I can't measure it but it's a very watchable picture and even looking fpr problems with the black in the dark scences I'm still pleased with the picture. BTW- - You were correct I believe about the anamorphic lens. Thanks.
-Don

The 900 is an amazing projector, don't get me wrong. As I had mentioned before, though, coming from a 10 year old projector, I was expecting a major overhaul with repsect to absolute black, given the high contrast. It doesn't seem this is the case and that given the lower brightness of our old projector, it actually might have had better blacks. Nothing a filter can't cure, I know.
I'm not talkinga bout contrast or how blacks look when there are bright parts..in that respect, it's great. On an all black field though, when you're in a light controlled room, I don't know how people do not notice the (lack of) black level. My screen, admittedly, is matte white. But the room is painted 18% grey has black carperting in front of the screen and is completely light controlled.

When I "shutter" the projector, or get a black field, the screen is very illuminated. You can tell simply by looking at the projector lens.

When I "shutter" the projector, or get a black field, the screen is very illuminated. You can tell simply by looking at the projector lens.
Well, on the brighter side <nyuk, nyuk>, you'll always be able to see your hand shadow puppets.

First I just want to thank MikeSRC for alot of the work he has done for us 700/900 enthusiast. I have the 900 with no filters and Carada 118" Brilliant White screen, and want to start my AVIA video calibrations.

I noticed that there are two main sets of settings, MikeSRC and Eric Awtry. I want to calibrate my Cinema1 and Normal modes, but not sure which settings to use. Which is better for my projector/screen combo?

Do most people use Cinema1 for watching DVDs and Normal for Satellite/Cable?

David,

" when you're in a light controlled room, I don't know how people do not notice the (lack of) black level."

I think the light controlled part is the key there. If there is light in the room illuminating the screen that will hide the black level of the projector.

There is a good thread somewhere here about measured CR with varying amounts of lights on in the room. It doesn't take all that much light to reduce CR in the under <100:1 range.

Like most things in audio/video.... the better the room is the more revealing it is.

Shawn

First I just want to thank MikeSRC for alot of the work he has done for us 700/900 enthusiast. I have the 900 with no filters and Carada 118" Brilliant White screen, and want to start my AVIA video calibrations.

I noticed that there are two main sets of settings, MikeSRC and Eric Awtry. I want to calibrate my Cinema1 and Normal modes, but not sure which settings to use. Which is better for my projector/screen combo?

Do most people use Cinema1 for watching DVDs and Normal for Satellite/Cable?
Just a comment; to calibrate a source, you need test patterns. That's not a problem with DVD, but might be for SAT or hi-def cable. HDNet runs - or at least used to - I haven't checked in a while - a test pattern early AM Tuesday. Dunno know about the SAT services.

"I have a one "word" reply to your chicken wire crack: IMX. Poof! No more SDE. For that matter, no more pixels."

Don't take this the wrong way but is that based on actual viewing yet or just hoping for it to be that way? If it is from actual viewing what is your viewing ratio?

The HS51/51A was also on my list before getting the Panasonic and from people that have the Sony's with an IMX said SDE was still visiable at around 1.5x screen width. Since I sit at 1x screen width for 2.35 material so that sort of ruled it out for me.

It is apparent people notice SDE to very different amounts. I can't understand the reviews of the Panasonic's which claim you can't see pixel/SDE when right up against the screen. I can just make them out at 1x screen width on some material. Unless maybe the reviewers unit was misconverged which was hiding the pixels/SDE?

Shawn

"I have a one "word" reply to your chicken wire crack: IMX. Poof! No more SDE. For that matter, no more pixels."

Don't take this the wrong way but is that based on actual viewing yet or just hoping for it to be that way? If it is from actual viewing what is your viewing ratio?

The HS51/51A was also on my list before getting the Panasonic and from people that have the Sony's with an IMX said SDE was still visiable at around 1.5x screen width. Since I sit at 1x screen width for 2.35 material so that sort of ruled it out for me.

It is apparent people notice SDE to very different amounts. I can't understand the reviews of the Panasonic's which claim you can't see pixel/SDE when right up against the screen. I can just make them out at 1x screen width on some material. Unless maybe the reviewers unit was misconverged which was hiding the pixels/SDE?

Shawn
Currently, I have a Sony HS20 firing at a 92" wide 16:9 Stewart Firehawk. My first row of seats is at .8x - that's POINT EIGHT - screen width. The second, and the one I consider primary, row is 1.2x screen width. Truthfully, the first row is too close, but I really wanted two rows and this layout was the only one practical for my space. Folks always recline to get a bit more distance anyway, but it is a "head-turning" issue. However, for the purposes of answering your question, the viewing distance is irrelevant; regardless of how close you stand, there is NO SDE! The IMX completely de-pixelizes the picture. It is just one continuous image. With an IMX lens, one can choose a projector based on other performance criteria - black level and CR come to mind - and can completely ignore complaints of SDE.

from people that have the Sony's with an IMX said SDE was still visiable at around 1.5x screen width.
They do not know how to set up their IMX!

Not only is this w-a-y OT, but annoying to the Panny owners; PM me if you have any more questions.

It is apparent people notice SDE to very different amounts. I can't understand the reviews of the Panasonic's which claim you can't see pixel/SDE when right up against the screen. I can just make them out at 1x screen width on some material. Unless maybe the reviewers unit was misconverged which was hiding the pixels/SDE?

Shawn

I believe this is where some reviewers start to throw out generalizations in comparison to other products. It's a bit lazy. I've seen reviews that state the 900 has no SDE, and of course, that overstates the effectiveness of SmoothScreen. I read a review claiming that the 900 is now on par with 720P DLP with regards to SDE, and that understates the effectiveness of SmoothScreen.

I'm with you. I can see slight SDE at about 1x in brighter scenes. This compares with 720P DLP at about 1.4 to 1.5x. On the 900, SDE becomes quite visable at about .5 to .75x in all but dark scenes, which compares to DLP at about 1 to 1.25x.

I can see slight SDE at about 1x in brighter scenes. This compares with 720P DLP at about 1.4 to 1.5x. On the 900, SDE becomes quite visable at about .5 to .75x in all but dark scenes, which compares to DLP at about 1 to 1.25x.

I agree with your comments with respect to SDE on the Panasonics.
Next time you see the pixelation, and you are up for it, stop playback and take a close look at your FLICKER settings - refocus on a white card held at arms length. If the channels can be optimized give it a tweak and then review the scene.

ted

David- Get rid of your white screen dude!! When you go with neutral grey you'll be shocked how much better the picture looks and the colors are richer, too. The only reason I can think of with this projector to use a white screen would be 1) cost to replace it with the grey one you should be using or 2) if you can't control the light in your room. If the former, then it's a trade-off $$ for black level and if it's the latter, then "Why did you buy a projector in the first place". I use a 40" Sony XBR for day(lights on) viewing. Just some thoughts. I'll bet I never use a white screen ever again. -Don

"When you go with neutral grey you'll be shocked how much better the picture looks and the colors are richer, too."

I'll have to try grey sometime with the Panasonic.

I have both BW and HCG for my Carada frame. When I originally purchased the screen I went with the BW, but then later bought the HCG for my old projector to try to improve its black levels and picture in dark scenes. Richer is how I described the difference in the colors there too. But after awhile the bright scenes were starting to bug me as they just seemed a little muted and didn't 'pop'.

When I bought the Panasonic I put the BW back on the frame. With the 81ef filter and the BW I think my black level is still better then what I had with the old projector on the HCG and I gained back the 'pop' and brightness. Without the filter I'd probably have moved to the HCG already.

Might be interesting to see how it looks on the grey but I think I'd miss the 'pop' to the image I get now. .

Shawn

1) cost to replace it with the grey one you should be using or 2) if you can't control the light in your room. -Don

Grey screens are in fact for rejecting ambient light that will raise black level more than white (as it is a greater percentage in the mix).

I use a 1.5 Vutec white in a totally light controlled room, and my blacks are quite good - then again I run my unit at a filter claibrated 10 Ft L and have watched it lower.

ted

Grey screens are in fact for rejecting ambient light that will raise black level more than white (as it is a greater percentage in the mix).

I use a 1.5 Vutec white in a totally light controlled room, and my blacks are quite good - then again I run my unit at a filter claibrated 10 Ft L and have watched it lower.

ted
Is it the "grey-ness" that rejects ambient light, or the coating's properties independent of the color?

David- Get rid of your white screen dude!! When you go with neutral grey you'll be shocked how much better the picture looks and the colors are richer, too. The only reason I can think of with this projector to use a white screen would be 1) cost to replace it with the grey one you should be using or 2) if you can't control the light in your room. If the former, then it's a trade-off $$ for black level and if it's the latter, then "Why did you buy a projector in the first place". I use a 40" Sony XBR for day(lights on) viewing. Just some thoughts. I'll bet I never use a white screen ever again. -Don

Good idea! I didn't catch where David mentioned that he was using a white screen or I would have made the same recommendation. After experiencing the black level of a HD2+ DLP on my grey screen, I can't even imagine how high the 900's black level would be on a white screen. It took the grey screen and a filter to get close to DLP black levels out of my 900.

That's another area reviewers have butchered regarding the 900's performance. It does not achieve DLP black levels without filtering and a grey screen. It's good, and certainly better than previous generations of LCD, but it isn't to that level yet.

Shawn, let us know what you think when you try the HCG in place of the BW. I've considered moving to the Carada HCG from my Da-Lite HCCV in order to reduce black level even more. However, the one thing that concerns me based on the HCG sample that I have is white accuracy. When I place it on my HCCV screen, black is noticeably superior, and colors are fine, but whites definitely turn 'dirty.' What I can't tell from such a small sample is whether my eyes would adjust and resolve a relatively normal white without the HCCV in the background for reference.

EDIT: I should have mentioned that the HCCV is a lighter grey than the Carada, and it has a 1.1 gain coating as well.

My projector must be a fluke because I can't see SDE at all over a few feet from the screen. I originally though the picture was soft, but now with the oppo in 720P for DVD or HD material it's fine I realize it's perfectly fine. IMO the complaints (my own included) initially regarding smoothscreen and sharpness are akin to when you first learned to turn down the sharpness (using AVIA). When you first look at the picture after turning down sharpness you think the PQ is not as sharp as before, but after viewing for a week or so you start to see detail you never knew was there. I actually like the smoothscreen technology as first row is only 1x away from 2.35:1 material. -Don

I hope that my post did not give the impression that I find the 900's SDE objectionable. I don't. It is definitely the projector to go with if you either have to sit close, or prefer to sit close. You can get much closer than with the same resolution in DLP.

I don't find the image to be 'soft' either. Your analogy is perfect.

" My projector must be a fluke because I can't see SDE at all over a few feet from the screen."

What is your panel convergence like?

Shawn

Hello,

does anybody know what "INITIALIZE" in the normal service menu (extended OSD) does? I haven't seen anything about it in the service manual, and I'm afraid to try it out.

Thanks,
Ced

Ted- Hmmm interesting. I didn't really go with the grey screen to reduce reflection of ambiant light since I completely control the lights turn everything off except for some very low watt sconces. I can tell you that the grey screen also improves blacks level ON THE SCREEN. just hold up a neutral grey card at the screen and you can see the difference (black is blacker). Now that doesn't change the "black level" or the full on / full off contrast ratio measured coming out of the projector, but I challenge anyone to explain how improving black (lowering) level this way isn't actually better black level. IMO this is a great tweak to try for anyone with a light controlled room using a white screen with this projector. It does lower the overall brightness a bit, but I think a using a screen material that improves (lowers light level) coming off the screen fits well with using the filters and if the grey is neutral I don;t think it would mess up the color gammas that we are trying to tame either. From what I can tell just watching the colors are fine, but I don't have any equipment to test my hypothesis. I wonder if Mike or any one else with equipment has any thought on the use of different screen materials with the AE900 using the 81C (or the other filters). -Don

Shawn - How do I check the panel convergence? I don't notice any problem, but I would like to test/adjust if possible. On another adjustment I jsut did last week (flicker), I never noticed any problem with flicker, but after adjusting (BTW red was already spot on, blue and green were off 5 and 8, points, respectively) I think it did make a difference in motion scenes (but this was only my visual impression so it's hard to say for sure). Would tuning the flicker to best possible setting improve the PQ when watching a fast moving scene (or when camera pans across a scene) ? This is what I thought looked a bit better after tweaking the flicker settings. -Don

Thanks for all the repllies.

I have two questions. If the grey screen "Rejects" ambient light, but i'm in a totally black room with little reflections, won't this aspect of the screen be negated?

As well, the screen is currently 133" diagonal, and the projector is new (40 hours). I'm concerned that the combination of the grey screen, and filters, would drastically reduce the brightness and "punch" of the image, especially when the bulb starts to die down a bit.

Thanks for all the repllies.

I have two questions. If the grey screen "Rejects" ambient light, but i'm in a totally black room with little reflections, won't this aspect of the screen be negated?

As well, the screen is currently 133" diagonal, and the projector is new (40 hours). I'm concerned that the combination of the grey screen, and filters, would drastically reduce the brightness and "punch" of the image, especially when the bulb starts to die down a bit.

All that you've stated is true - unless you go with a gain/grey re brightness. With these you suffer viewing angle issues as the coating creates directionality.

The ANSI CR (Instantaneous) preserving benefits *will* disappear with good light control - especially if that control goes as far as secondary reflections.

Threads form those who have more knowledge in one nueron cluster than I've in a brain case.
White, Grey, or Silver - A Review! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=262466)
The High-Gain/Exotic Screen Review (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=228371)

ted

Thanks for all the repllies.

I have two questions. If the grey screen "Rejects" ambient light, but i'm in a totally black room with little reflections, won't this aspect of the screen be negated?


No, because the blackness of the screen will make the "projected Black" appear blacker than it would otherwise. A grey screen is primarily used to increase the perceived color of black in PJ's with lower contrast ratios. You could have an entirely jet-black room, and a grey screen will still improve the appearance of blacks in your projected image.

No, because the blackness of the screen will make the "projected Black" appear blacker than it would otherwise. A grey screen is primarily used to increase the perceived color of black in PJ's with lower contrast ratios. You could have an entirely jet-black room, and a grey screen will still improve the appearance of blacks in your projected image.
Improving black levels also improves nearly all COLORS as well - deepens and richens them making images appear more 3-dimensional and lifelike.

All true but this can be achieved with ND, if your intent is deep blacks. The filter could then be removed for the perceived brightness gain once the lamp enters its denouement.

It *could*be argued that a filter will lower the ANSI CR which will impact scene CR. I defend CC filters because it does all this (again keeping in mind possible ANSI CR loss) while allowing for a more balanced use of the pj amps. I think the trade offs are better for the ON?OFF gain (which is the same whether lights on or off, grey or not).

ted

Improving black levels also improves nearly all COLORS as well - deepens and richens them making images appear more 3-dimensional and lifelike.

This is because you are adding a shade of grey (lower it on the tonal scale) to all brightness levels. The lowering of the percieved blacks enhances the 3d quality.

ted

This is because you are adding a shade of grey (lower it on the tonal scale) to all brightness levels. The lowering of the percieved blacks enhances the 3d quality.

ted
You have unparalled paraphrasing skills! :)

You have unparalled paraphrasing skills! :)

Who you calling repetitious? :p

ted

Hi guys, I'm back. I am getting another AE900 to hold me over. I have ordered a Ruby on industry accomodation and should have it by the end of April. Anyway, I plan on doing my calibration again on this unit using either the EF or C filters. I have been away for a while and I am wondering if there is anything new I may have missed. Any new enlightenments or tweaks I should try? I plan on calibrating this unit a couple of different ways that I used on some of the BenQ DLPs. I think I will have a D6500K mode in Cinema w/o filter, a D6500k mode in Normal w/ filter and then have a D7500K in Dynamic. I got very good results with some DLPs and the image looks great even though it is 7500K. Great for sports and bright video. Anything else anyone would like me to try? I look forward to joining in again.

Eric, Welcome back. Not to be greedy but since you asked I would love to see D65 settings for Cinema1 no filter, Normal no filter, Normal filter, Dynamic filter. I have a 81C so I am biased there. Ultimately, I appreciate any info you offer and I look forward to your findings.

Moe

Eric, Welcome back. I was also away in China & Asia so I have not had much time to play.
Looking forward to your new calibrations. Hope you do some more work with the 81C filter.

Eric, Welcome back. I was also away in China & Asia so I have not had much time to play.
Looking forward to your new calibrations. Hope you do some more work with the 81C filter.

Well, I sold the C filter with my last calibrated PJ. I still have an 81 EF and since this PJ is going to be a temporary, I will probably just play with the EF. If and when I sell it, I will be glad to add a C filter and calibrate it for the new owner for the additional cost. I do think the C filter is the best all around compromise from my last round of testing.

Not a noob, but have - perhaps - a noob question: I'm getting the impression that most if not all projectors need a filter to be properly calibrated. Why aren't they built-in by the manufacturer?

Not a noob, but have - perhaps - a noob question: I'm getting the impression that most if not all projectors need a filter to be properly calibrated. Why aren't they built-in by the manufacturer?

Actually you get better color balance without a filter. Most on here are looking for better blacks and CR so they add a filter and compromise color balance a bit.

Actually you get better color balance without a filter. Most on here are looking for better blacks and CR so they add a filter and compromise color balance a bit.
Ahhh, gotcha. As many newer LCD projectors have better black levels and CR, will use of these filters be fading away?

Actually you get better color balance without a filter.

Since a UHP lamp is lacking in the RED spectrum then the red amp is traditionally overdriven in UHP based pjs. A CC filter allows for a more balanced approach to utilizing the amps i.e. red gain is not as quickly maxed out. An argument could be made for poor quality filters affecting ANSI CR by creating secondary reflections but colour balance should be able to be nulled by correct amp line up.

This happens all the time with CC filters and cameras. Why should it be any different with PJs, since in many ways they are the mirror image of a camera?

As you see, I disagree, so could you please explain?

ted

Hi Eric,

Welcome back. We're jealous of that Ruby you're getting. :D

pepar - Regarding the filter use, the bulbs found in many projectors are deficient in red. The filter allows you to compensate for the low red output of the bulb by reducing the blue and green output. This also reduces the light spill at low IRE levels, which deepen the blacks and improves CR. The idea is that with the right filter, you can increase the green and blue gains to be fairly equal with red, thereby restoring color balance and overall light level. The filter should not be changing the colors (although the 81EF does seem to make reds look a bit orange), just reducing the output. With either the 81 filter or a CC40R, the AE900 will produce better blacks than any non-filtered LCD projector, more in line with what you see from a DC2 DLP. Presumably, with C2Fine, the need for a filter will be reduced.

Whoops, typing at the same time as Ted. Sorry for the duplication, but I guess we agree. :)

Since a UHP lamp is lacking in the RED spectrum then the red amp is traditionally overdriven in UHP based pjs. A CC filter allows for a more balanced approach to utilizing the amps i.e. red gain is not as quickly maxed out. An argument could be made for poor quality filters affecting ANSI CR by creating secondary reflections but colour balance should be able to be nulled by correct amp line up.

This happens all the time with CC filters and cameras. Why should it be any different with PJs, since in many ways they are the mirror image of a camera?

As you see, I disagree, so could you please explain?

ted

Ted,
I do not disagree with your arguement here but still I am reporting real world practical applications. While it is true red is deficient, I have yet to be able to get better grayscale tracking with a filter than without with any projector I have tried this on.

Eric, I have an extra 67mm 81C filter and a 77mm ring that you are welcome to try.
Send me a private message with your address and I would be happy to send it to you.

Eric- I'd love to have setting for using the 81C filter in dynamic mode. Mike's settings for 81C and normal mode are what I'm using now a nd this works quite nice, but I think that there may be some benefit to dynamic mode if the color can be made acceptable.
-Don

I will see what I can do. The PJ arrives tomorrow and I may be able to work on it some this weekend. I am travelling all next week so hopefully I can post some additional numbers before then. It will be interesting to see build date and how this PJ compares to the other 3 I have calibrated.

Eric....I noticed that you also posted some settings on page 1 of this thread, in addition to Mike and others. Did something happen to your last 900 and you're getting another one, and are your settings still applicable? I noticed they were a lot different than MikeSRC settings. Welcome back.

Eric....I noticed that you also posted some settings on page 1 of this thread, in addition to Mike and others. Did something happen to your last 900 and you're getting another one, and are your settings still applicable? I noticed they were a lot different than MikeSRC settings. Welcome back.

Tim,
I have had three to this point. I have ran them through my demo room and calibrated them. I usually have a couple of PJs around at once. This one will probably be my last AE900 as I am moving on to 1080p and slowing down on this front until Cedia. :D

A novice question here. I recently received my panny 900, not using a filter and don't plan on buying one, here is how i use my projector settings:

Cinema 1 and 2: Don't really use
Cinema 3: DVDs in 720p with my oppo 97
Normal/Natural:SD TV
Dynamic: Hi-def TV
Video: Playstation 2 (using component cables)

What are others using???

Welcome hak 1906. I would suggest that you might want to try a HDMI if you can.
You might also want to try Mike's or Eric's settings on page one of the thread without a filter.

I asked the question earlier, but didn't get an answer. Mike and Eric's settings without a filter for Cinema1 and Normal are very different. Which one should myself or any new 900 owners used? I'm projecting onto Carada Brilliant White screen.

You might also want to try Mike's or Eric's settings on page one of the thread without a filter.

try them both and see which one looks better to you, then go from there.

I would try them both and go from there. It seems that different production dates of the AE900 produce different results. Eric will be testing the AE900 again with a new one he just received.

My 900 has a manufacturing date of January 2006.

Eric.....just wondering when you plan to test your new (3rd) 900 and will be posting results. Thanks.

I would try them both and go from there. It seems that different production dates of the AE900 produce different results. Eric will be testing the AE900 again with a new one he just received.

What were the manufacturing dates of the tested projectors from MikeSRC, Eric, and CLK?

I would try them both and go from there. It seems that different production dates of the AE900 produce different results. Eric will be testing the AE900 again with a new one he just received.

Mike's and CLK's were September 2005. Eric's I think was November but I am not sure.
It will be interesting to see what results Eric gets with his latest unit. As stated on page one of this thread these settings are just guides and should be viewed as that. Some changes must be made for individual projectors. Try calibration with Avia or DVE first and try the different settings to see which one works best with your projector. Check your settings with AVIA or DVE again after you have applied the different settings.

Has anyone measured the lumen output of the pj in Normal mode with 81C filter? Is it over 300? Trying to figure which gain screen would be needed with a filter in place. Thanks for the help.

Moe

Has anyone measured the lumen output of the pj in Normal mode with 81C filter? Is it over 300? Trying to figure which gain screen would be needed with a filter in place. Thanks for the help.

Moe

I didn't calc lumens, but with the 81C filter and Normal setting there was a 15% drop in output from the calibrated Normal setting without the filter. That shouldn't really affect your screen gain choice unless you have some ambient light issues as well.

Regarding the difference in calibration settings, we are speculating that there is a difference in default settings based on build date. Eric and I are both using calibration equipment that would provide similar results if there wasn't a variation between units. Try the settings, then put up some grey ramps from Avia or DVE. Look for excess red or blue in the greys and then adjust the RGB contrast or brightness accordingly. For example, if you see too much red in the lighter greys, dial back the R contrast notch or two. If it's in the darker greys, do the same with the R brightness. This is a rough way to adjust these settings, but it's about the best you can do without calibration equipment.

A novice question here. I recently received my panny 900, not using a filter and don't plan on buying one, here is how i use my projector settings:

Cinema 1 and 2: Don't really use
Cinema 3: DVDs in 720p with my oppo 97
Normal/Natural:SD TV
Dynamic: Hi-def TV
Video: Playstation 2 (using component cables)

What are others using???

I have looked at the two settings provided at the beginning of this thread, however, it really doesn't say what each is used for, DVD/HDTV,SDTV/Playstation,XBOX/VCR playback, just wanting to get an idea what most folks use for the scenarios above??

Not questioning the method here and I'm probably wrong anyways, but wouldn't it be better to set the greyscale settings first before doing AVIA/DVE calibration. This would avoid doing AVIA twice, or is their a logical reason to take the steps you mentioned? Thanks again. Don't flame me, I'm an engineer. :D

Mike's and CLK's were September 2005. Eric's I think was November but I am not sure.
It will be interesting to see what results Eric gets with his latest unit. As stated on page one of this thread these settings are just guides and should be viewed as that. Some changes must be made for individual projectors. Try calibration with Avia or DVE first and try the different settings to see which one works best with your projector. Check your settings with AVIA or DVE again after you have applied the different settings.

Mike and Eric I belive both suggested that you run AVIA or DVE first before using their settings and than use it again to check. I should have been clearer. You should use DVE to check the greyscale settings first. I would check them again after you change the settings.
I probably should have used the word set greyscale instead of calibration.
Thanks

Not questioning the method here and I'm probably wrong anyways, but wouldn't it be better to set the greyscale settings first before doing AVIA/DVE calibration. This would avoid doing AVIA twice, or is their a logical reason to take the steps you mentioned? Thanks again. Don't flame me, I'm an engineer. :D

The issue here is that your brightness and contrast settings effect how you grayscale tracks. If you set contrast and brightness properly before calibration, then the PJ is calibrated properly, you should not change them at all after calibration and should not need to.

A quick note again. I got the 900 up and running finally yesterday. I plugged in a few numbers I pulled from my notes. I haven't had time to calibrate yet and I wanted to get something watchable. Well once again, I cannot say enough how different each of these PJs have been. This unit is a Sept 2005 build date and my old settings look better than out of the box but it still produces an image that is too red in the lower IREs in both Cinema and Normal without a filter. Where am I going with this? Well my settings are different from Mikes and others but that does not mean they are wrong or Mikes are wrong. With LCD, much more than DLP, these PJs are different because of manufacturing tolerances. If you are trying these settings from page 1 on your PJ, be sure to try them all and trust you eyes. I suggest putting the settings in and putting up a gray ramp from DVE or Avia and looking at it. You will see the lower, mid or high IREs are too blue, green or red or a combination. Find the settings that exhibit the least amount of variance to your eyes and work with those. Some may prefer to go with that and leave it alone but the gray ramps and your eyes will allow you to tweak the settings a bit further. Run the controls up and down and notice the changes and get your eyes used to the change of each color and how the ramp is effected. You can get a pretty good gray scale from this. Also remember that green is normally the dominant color. It will effect red and blue and lowering green will raise red and blue quickly. I recommend to leave green alone as much as you can on your biases and only cut or add green in the gains. Normally if brightness is set correctly, green will be fine down low and red and blue will be the colors to tweak. In the high IREs if you are low on red, I recommend a combination of lowering green and raising red. Just a few insights and hopefully it will help. These recommendations are not always the final say in a calibration but just a few general rules. Do not take them as the gospel for every situation.

Eric (and all of the other contributors), thanks so much for your insight.

I have a question about your no-filter settings from page 1. You mention that they reflect the "Da-Lite HCCV screen offset in the Progressive Labs software." Do you have a sense of what those offset settings are? I have a screen that is similar to the HCCV but do not use the Progressive Labs software.

Great advice Eric. Looking forward to your new calibrations when you get a chance. I also have a Sept 2005 build so it should be interesting to compare the settings and make individual tweaks with the grey ramp. I am using an 81c fliter at this time and I like it the best so far. If you need an 81c to try I own an extra one. PM me.

Go over to www.projectorcentral.com and use the Projection calculator. Set your diagonal screen size to 120in and then you'll see the (rather large) range...its probably something like 15-25 feet (a guess) in your range. Optically, the less ZOOM you have to use the less glass in the optics you are using, which means less of a chance of any focus uniformity issues.



Can you even get a 25 foot run of DVI Cable?? I thought DVI/HDMI topped out at 15 feet or so before requiring a booster/repeater...???

I was wondering about the distance I can set my Panasonic AE900 and it seemed some two months ago, its was fine. Now I wanted to show someone this site and it seems the numbers are different and my throw distance is not in the recommended range. So for a screen 119' diagonal and a gain of 1.1, with the throw even at 12 feet it would recommend higher brightness. But then calculator classis shows 12 - 24.3 is my available range. Anyone want to stab at this and enlighten me? Dave at Projector central wrote back and said;

With the Calculator Pro we use 75% of the projectors ANSI lumen rating in all our calculations in order to allow for lamp aging. The lamp life is rated in hours and what it means is that the lamp will be at half brightness at the end of its life. You’ll also notice that your foot-Lambert measurement with this setup is 11 fL. A movie theater is typically 12 fL, so you will be higher than that when you start and fall below that number half way through the life of the lamp. This isn’t a problem as long as you can control light in the room. If you cannot manage room light then, contrast will suffer, but the image is still viewable.

If I can be of further assistance, please advise.

Not sure where 11fl came in. Don't want to appear to stupid here.

Also, I bought a 25' HDMI cable cheap and took it back because of sparkles. A more expensive cable fixed it.



Thanks
Dave

Great advice Eric. Looking forward to your new calibrations when you get a chance. I also have a Sept 2005 build so it should be interesting to compare the settings and make individual tweaks with the grey ramp. I am using an 81c fliter at this time and I like it the best so far. If you need an 81c to try I own an extra one. PM me.

I would do this but I want to try the EF again in high lamp mode with Dynamic and see what I can get. I just sold my Lumagen scaler and will have to do everything directly with the PJ. No cheating this time! ;)

" just sold my Lumagen scaler and will have to do everything directly with the PJ. No cheating this time!"

Couldn't you make some of the same changes using the color managment functions in the projector?

Shawn

Excellent. Now we're talking. How about addding these great tidbits to page 1 of the thread. I'm sure someone else will be thinking the same questions.

The issue here is that your brightness and contrast settings effect how you grayscale tracks. If you set contrast and brightness properly before calibration, then the PJ is calibrated properly, you should not change them at all after calibration and should not need to.

" just sold my Lumagen scaler and will have to do everything directly with the PJ. No cheating this time!"

Couldn't you make some of the same changes using the color managment functions in the projector?

Shawn

Shawn,
I just always used the Lumagen's 11 point grayscale and gamma to touch things up after a calibration. The use of a filter would not allow me to get things as flat as without the filter and the Lumagen helped a great deal in this area. Now I will be solely depending on the color management of the PJ totally.

I will put Eric's information on calibration on page 1 of the thread. Great advice.

Eric,

I understand that. What I was pointing out is I haven't seen anyone actually try and use the color management function in the Panasonic's with the filters. I'm not talking about the simple settings (bright/contrast, RGB gain etc...) but the more complex setting of putting the 'mouse' on the color you want to adjust on the screen then adjusting it there.

In other words use that in place of the Lumagen's greyscale/gamma touch up since only a few have that extra functionality.

It would be harder to post those types of settings for others though. Likely it would involved basically trying to duplicate what the Lumagen's do. Putting up maybe a green color bars in 10 IRE bands. And for example basically saying 'click' on the 30IRE band and set it to -4... or whatever.

In *theory* it would be better to do this in the projector anyway instead of doing it ahead in a scaler.

Shawn

" anyone use the color management function . . with the filters. I'm not talking about the simple settings (bright/contrast, RGB gain etc...) but the more complex setting of putting the 'mouse' on the color you want to adjust on the screen then adjusting it there.
. . . .. Putting up maybe a green color bars in 10 IRE bands. And for example basically saying 'click' on the 30IRE band and set it to -4... or whatever."

I don't know if this would work in the way you suggest since the only color you would be effecting with the color managment system is the specific green of the color bars (and very, very closely related species of green), not all greens. I have used the color management to "tune-up" certain specific colors that I'm familiar with how I think they should look (using my Sony CRT which is also in my media room as the reference). For example, bright pink looks a little grey to me (perhaps due to my neutral grey screen?) so I adjusted this color to look brighter and less grey. I think I may also use this for some other colors as time goes on, but pink is the only color I noticed was off (81C filter, low lamp, normal mode and Mike' s gamma settings). -Don

Regarding the difference in calibration settings, we are speculating that there is a difference in default settings based on build date. Eric and I are both using calibration equipment that would provide similar results if there wasn't a variation between units. Try the settings, then put up some grey ramps from Avia or DVE. Look for excess red or blue in the greys and then adjust the RGB contrast or brightness accordingly. For example, if you see too much red in the lighter greys, dial back the R contrast notch or two. If it's in the darker greys, do the same with the R brightness. This is a rough way to adjust these settings, but it's about the best you can do without calibration equipment.
[QUOTE]Mike SRC
Mike made these suggesions a few pages back. I also had a little pink using his settings and have dialed back the R contrast a notch or two. This has improved the picture for me
using the 81C

Eric,

I understand that. What I was pointing out is I haven't seen anyone actually try and use the color management function in the Panasonic's with the filters. I'm not talking about the simple settings (bright/contrast, RGB gain etc...) but the more complex setting of putting the 'mouse' on the color you want to adjust on the screen then adjusting it there.

In other words use that in place of the Lumagen's greyscale/gamma touch up since only a few have that extra functionality.

It would be harder to post those types of settings for others though. Likely it would involved basically trying to duplicate what the Lumagen's do. Putting up maybe a green color bars in 10 IRE bands. And for example basically saying 'click' on the 30IRE band and set it to -4... or whatever.

In *theory* it would be better to do this in the projector anyway instead of doing it ahead in a scaler.

Shawn

Shawn,
I am not sure this would work. I did extensive work on the SMPTE CIE coordinates with the CCM and it was great. I plan on using this same thing again. I fee that the 900's CCM is the best color management system I have run across in any PJ. The problem is I believe this only effects actual saturation and hue and not the grayscale tracking. When I used this before, I set it up where all the primaries and secondaries were spot on the CIE coordinates after I had adjusted grayscale. I then remeasured grayscale to make sure the CCM had not screwed anything up. In my case, grayscale was still perfect. In the Sony HS-51, their RCP system does effect grayscale slightly so I found it better to set your primaries first. I will do some more research into this and see if it can be done though.

Eric is correct. The CCM does not affect greyscale. From what Eric mentioned before when he used the Lumagen, it's biggest advantage with the AE900 would be to "tame the wild gamma" :D . The AE900's gamma adjustments are better than nothing, but they are not extensive enough to get the curve as smooth as you'd like it when usign Normal or Dynamic. You have to compromise gamma at the high and low IREs to get it smooth through most of the range.

Regarding the global contrast and brightness settings, as Eric said, they only need to be set first when you're doing a calibration. However, if I were just using one of our settings on a different projector, I'd probably recheck brightness and contrast after applying the RGB and gamma settings.

Mike,

Thanks, somday I'll have to pick up one of the Spyder products one of these days to play around with calibration myself since I also have the Lumagen. But I've been happy with your settings for the 81EF and think I might drive myself a little nutty tweaking if I had the measurement tools. I sort of did that with my old projector using automated calibration software.

Shawn

I sure hope mine works right out of the box. I don't know if I am capable of following the logic in these posts. Or should I say the "logics" since there seem to be many. I'll keep reading though...................... :(

Okay guys. I had enough time to calibrate the AE900 in Cinema 1 Mode without a filter today. I am very proud of the results although I think the numbers are a bit different from my last PJ. Remember, this one is a Sept 2005 build date and showed more of a red bias than the others. My final calibration yielded a color temp of 6617 from 0-100 IRE with a Delta Error of 1.1. Thats pretty strong stuff considering that from 30-90 it is tracking very close to a perfect 6480K. The On/Off contrast measure an oustanding 2042:1. Now my meter is probably not the best for this but I used the same technics I always have to get to my number so all the variables are the same. Gamma tracked at 2.25. Okay, now for some numbers

Contrast -3
Bright +3
Color -2
Tint 0
Sharp -2
Color Temp 0

Gamma
H -1
M -1
L +1

Constrast
R 0
G -4
B +2

Bright
R -1
G 0
B -2

Now for some more interesting numbers. I used CCM to set up a nearly perfect SMPTE CIE chart. The colors are oversaturated so most are reduced. I used a 1.3 gain white screen for reference so this will work for many users. I adjusted only 5 points consisting of Red, Green, Cyan, Magenta and Yellow. You can adjust blue with overall saturation (Color in the PJs Menu).

CCM Numbers
Point 1 Red Color -15 Tint 0 Bright 0
Point 2 Green Color -18 Tint 0 Bright 0
Point 3 Cyan Color -20 Tint 0 Bright 0
Point 4 Magenta Color -16 Tint -2 Bright 0
Point 5 Yellow Color -18 Tint -4 Bright 0

Try these out and see what you think.

EDIT>>>
I changed my Gamma Low setting to +1. The gamma on the AE900 measures better and more uniformly at +5 but the image becomes more washed out. This brings up another point. I think Panny has the Gamma controls reversed on this PJ. It seems as if my other 900 had Gamma values in the -3 to -5 range instead of the + range. :confused:

BTW, these are with Low Lamp setting yielding a Lumen output of only 318 lumens. I also calibrated with Normal -4 color temp but this PJ has a bump in the Red in the middle IREs. I got pretty good results but probably will not post these numbers. As soon as I can, I will post some filtered numbers again.

Eric,

Is this with cinema 1,2 or 3? and was this watching sd/dvd/hdtv?

Thanks again Eric. I have posted your numbers on page one of the thread. I hope you have as good success with the filters. It would be great to see your results with both the 81C and 81EF. I have both and would love to see what you get with the 81C. I find that there is too much light loss with the 81EF. I will try your latest settings without a filter since I also have a Sept 05 build with the red bias. The CR results you got are amazing without a filter.

It seems as if my other 900 had Gamma values in the -3 to -5 range instead of the + range. :confused:

They do.
Increased numbers *lower* the gamma and vice versa.

If you check the temperatures in the service menu you will notice they utilize same logic - lower readings mean *higher* temps. At least they are consistent, :rolleyes: though not necessarily sane. ;)

ted

Eric, I tried your new posted settings. They are very good but I now see that each projector is slightly different. With your settings there was still a red push. I took down the red a little and the picture is great with a very good CR. I still like the 81C filter with Mike's settings. I did an A B test and I think the CR and picture is a little better using Mike's settings and normal mode with the filter. I would love to see your settings using an 81C.

Mike gave good advise in a recent post. Try the settings and make the small adjustments put up a grey ramp and make the small adjustments. That is what I did with your new settings and with Mike 's.

Thanks again.

I used AVIA for the initial calibration and my brightness and contrast settings are much different.

Eric,

Are you sure your contrast and brightness settings for Cinema 1 listed above is not backwards. I came out with +6 Contrast and -3 Brightness using AVIA. I could be wrong.

Eric,

Are you sure your contrast and brightness settings for Cinema 1 listed above is not backwards. I came out with +6 Contrast and -3 Brightness using AVIA. I could be wrong.

Very sure. I use Avia Pro and DVE. Kris Deering has some very specific Contrast and Brightness setting technics I use, but you have to have those 2 discs.

Eric,

I too tried your new setting last night. I had all of the basic settings nearly identical to yours after the final DVE tweaks. My first impressions were that I no longer felt like I was watching the opening credits to "Goldfinger" and the details seemed more apperent. Couldn't quite pinpoint why though, but that's O.K. The overall "look" seemed less intrusive on the eyes.

My question is I used the double six segment colors bars against the off-white background in DVE to set the CCM colors. Will that be ok? I saw a more apparent pinkish push(very slight) with the adjusted CCM colors. That may be closer to D65 and I'm just not used to it. What's your opinion?

I did end up with +2 on brightness and a -4 on contrast but that could be the screen or environment. That's one click lower that my "old" settings but the image seemed brighter.

Rob

Eric,

Are your cinema 1 settings best for dvd/hdtv/sdtv watching or all three of them?

Eric,

I too tried your new setting last night. I had all of the basic settings nearly identical to yours after the final DVE tweaks. My first impressions were that I no longer felt like I was watching the opening credits to "Goldfinger" and the details seemed more apperent. Couldn't quite pinpoint why though, but that's O.K. The overall "look" seemed less intrusive on the eyes.

My question is I used the double six segment colors bars against the off-white background in DVE to set the CCM colors. Will that be ok? I saw a more apparent pinkish push(very slight) with the adjusted CCM colors. That may be closer to D65 and I'm just not used to it. What's your opinion?

I did end up with +2 on brightness and a -4 on contrast but that could be the screen or environment. That's one click lower that my "old" settings but the image seemed brighter.

Rob


Rob,
Kris Deering recommends that you use the color bars with pluge on DVE to set brightness. This is the full field color bars with the very small pluge (3 bars) in the bottom right hand corner. Set brightness to where you can just see the below black bar from your seating position. This should get you just right. He has told me this is how most in the industry set brightness on digital displays. It gives you a mid level IRE value for you PJ and then allows all the blacks to be seen. On contrast you would use Avia Pro and the XX Deep Ramps. This is sort of a needle pulse pattern. You back down contrast until there is no blooming and the whiter than white info is represented by the thinnnest white line.

As for the CCM, I have attached my CIE chart for those to look at. It is as dead on as possible. Now remember that it is a SMPTE-C standard and not the 709 HDTV standard. This is how most set this up because there is so little difference. I can set it up with the 709 standard and then your SD sources will be oversaturated just slightly.

Eric,

Are your cinema 1 settings best for dvd/hdtv/sdtv watching or all three of them?

It was calibrated to use with all three. There should not be alot of difference.

Rob,
Kris Deering recommends that you use the color bars with pluge on DVE to set brightness. This is the full field color bars with the very small pluge (3 bars) in the bottom right hand corner. Set brightness to where you can just see the below black bar from your seating position. This should get you just right. He has told me this is how most in the industry set brightness on digital displays. It gives you a mid level IRE value for you PJ and then allows all the blacks to be seen. On contrast you would use Avia Pro and the XX Deep Ramps. This is sort of a needle pulse pattern. You back down contrast until there is no blooming and the whiter than white info is represented by the thinnnest white line.

As for the CCM, I have attached my CIE chart for those to look at. It is as dead on as possible. Now remember that it is a SMPTE-C standard and not the 709 HDTV standard. This is how most set this up because there is so little difference. I can set it up with the 709 standard and then your SD sources will be oversaturated just slightly.

Eric,

I don't have Avia, just DVE. Can you direct me to the Title/Chapter for that screen that has the color bars and the pluge? Which Title/Chapter in DVE would be best for setting contrast? I typically use the gray stepped ramps and take the contrast up just until the two whitest bar merge into one color and then just bring it down click by click until they "un-merge". Is this right.

Was I right in using the color bars to set the CCM? Better yet can a person use any of the colors bars in either of the discs to set your CCM numbers?

Thanks,
Rob

"You back down contrast until there is no blooming..."

Blooming on a non-CRT pj?!

"You back down contrast until there is no blooming..."

Blooming on a non-CRT pj?!

Blooming...clipping...my description may need a little work.

Eric,

I don't have Avia, just DVE. Can you direct me to the Title/Chapter for that screen that has the color bars and the pluge? Which Title/Chapter in DVE would be best for setting contrast? I typically use the gray stepped ramps and take the contrast up just until the two whitest bar merge into one color and then just bring it down click by click until they "un-merge". Is this right.

Was I right in using the color bars to set the CCM? Better yet can a person use any of the colors bars in either of the discs to set your CCM numbers?

Thanks,
Rob

I would if I could but I am on the road in Ohio for this week. The pattern is in the reference section for video pattersn. I believe it is a few patterns after the modified color bars DVE uses and a few before the split gray ramps you spoke of using.

The gray ramps are very good for contrast but will set it a bit higher than the XXDeep Ramps on Avia Pro in my experience for the same PJ on the same screen. There is no wrong or right way on this as long as you follow the general rules you are using. What the Deep Ramp provides is the point where your deficient color first clips or hits its ceiling. Although it generally yields a lower contrast, when you calibrate the PJ, you have the headroom you need with all your colors to get good tracking all the way out to 100IRE.

As far as CCM goes, you are fine with trying that and your eyes tell you what you like. I have found though that there is no substitute for a good color analyzer with these new color management programs in todays PJs. You can really dial it in and I do trust my measurements. Your eye can become accustomed to improper colors and fool you a bit.

Eric, I hope when you return you will have a chance to try the filters again and post your results.

What kind of adapter ring is needed to be able to use 67mm lenses?
There has been some confusing info on the thread about which it should be.
67mm-77mm Step-Up Ring (Lens to Filter), at least doesnt work.

Jari

If you have a 67mm Filter then you need to downsize it from 77 to use it.
So Step Down 77-67 is requied.

Does anybody know if a 62mm Filter would work ?
It is not too small (via a Step Down 77-62)?

Thanks

A 62mm should work. I temporarily had a 55mm filter on mine (to test a CC20R filter) and it didn't obstruct the image. 67mm is mentioned most often because there is usually a significant price drop from 72 to 67 mm. A 62 mm filter is usually the same price as a 67, so we go with the larger one. If you already have a 62mm filter, it should be fine.

62mm works fine. That's what I'm using now.

Moe