I stopped by a camera shop for a filter.

They had an 81A. I thought all 81's were the same color, and the letters were how strong the filtering is.

I was surprised to see that it was an amber/sepia color; I thought it would be pink.

It looks like it would do just what I *don't* like about the Cinema modes compared to the Natural - be kind of murky looking.

Am I just mistaken about the 81 filter's, or was the wrong filter in the box?

Thanks

My 81C is amber, leaning toward the yellow end of the spectrum.

All of the 81s are a shade of amber. They're warming filters, so they affect blue and green differently. They also have a slight effect on reds as well. The problem I had with the EF was that it gave a orange tint to reds. The A, B and C don't do that noticeably. That's also why I generally prefer a CCxxR filter, as it affect blue and green equally, without changing the reds, but an 81C is a good compromise.

Yellow reduces blue.

Noah, that will reduce or eliminate the murky blue in dark greys and black. Also, think shooting glasses. Amber shooting glasses enhance low level detail, and increase perceived contrast.

does anyone have a link for Color Compensating filter transmission charts?

I found
this (http://www.tiffen.com/userimages/filter-lens.pdf) that has a nice transmission chart for the 81 series on page 12. I'd be interested in seeing something similar for the various CC filter types.

looking forward to finally getting to run Colorfacts on the new AE900 tomorrow. this thread has been a great starting point.
Jeff

A CCxxR filter blocks blue and green equally, so the comparison to an 81 series (warming) lies in the total light reduction. If you look at that Tiffen chart, an 81A, B or C shows a 1/3 FS adjustment (when used with a camera). That's equal to the reduction from a CC20 or less. The 81 EF shows a 2/3 FS adjsutment, which should make it equal to a CC30, 40 or 50. From my experience with the 81EF and CC40R, the CC40R cut the total light output more than the 81EF did though.

Interesting.

I wish that Tiffen guide had the transmission plots for CCR filters.

Looking at the 81x and warming filter plots, I'm a bit puzzled.

They seem to have about a 10% overhead cost in lost red, and variable amounts of B/G cut. But I've often read that use of a filter cuts light output in half. If the cut is chosen to eliminate only the excess B/G, why so much total light loss?

Thanks

They seem to have about a 10% overhead cost in lost red, and variable amounts of B/G cut. But I've often read that use of a filter cuts light output in half. If the cut is chosen to eliminate only the excess B/G, why so much total light loss?

Thanks

It depends on the filter. An ND2 filter, used by many with bright projectors like InFocus, cuts the total light output in half (1 FS). The warming and color correcting filters generally don't cut as much light as an ND2 filter does (1/3 to 2/3 FS). It also varies by the brand of filter. There's more info on page three of this thread.

For a good explanation on the effects of various filters, check out Steve Smallcombe's FAQ here (http://www.smartavtweaks.com/FAQ.html#filter).

Thanks for the links, Mike, I'll take a look.

OK, I looked :)

So the question is, is a Bcutting, or B+G cutting filter more appropriate, or is the variability between pj's too great to answer that definitively?

Thanks

Okay guys, you are not going to believe this. I just got through calibrating the current AE900 I am using with the 81EF filter. I am still having trouble with a few wild bumps in red in the middle IREs but it is nominally flat. I adjusted Gamma but I have found that even though I can get the PJ to come out of black more evenly with higher numbers, it just does not look as good. The image washes out quicker. Anyway, the thing i stated above you will not believe are the numbers. When I first did this, I did not notice Mike's numbers. After looking at them, they are almost dead on the same. This unit is a September build date as Mike's is so we have PJs from the same production run obviously. Anyway, the numbers are below. All the same disclaimers apply. Finally, I will be selling this PJ soon again as I have another one on the way to my demo room. Fully calibrated and comes with a $85 77mm 81EF filter. PM me if interested.

81EF Filter
Normal Mode
Color Temp -4
Contrast +12
Brightness -2
Lamp Low

Gamma
High 2
Mid 2
Low 2

Contrast
R +0
G -6
B -1

Bright
R -1
G 0
B -3

Eric,

Did you measure CR with that setup?

Shawn

Sorry if this is dense, but could someone spell this out for me: will the use of a filter such as the 81EF improve shadow detail and make the blacks blacker? Or will it only make the colors more correct?

Jeremy

Eric,

Did you measure CR with that setup?

Shawn

Shawn,
I did but I am always disappointed. I really do not think the On/Off contrast is really improved that much with this filter. You have to remember, you do get blacker blacks but you are cutting the high end light output by about the same margin. CR was 2089:1. The low end (light output at 0IRE) is nearly half though.

Sorry if this is dense, but could someone spell this out for me: will the use of a filter such as the 81EF improve shadow detail and make the blacks blacker? Or will it only make the colors more correct?

Jeremy

Blacks blacker. I really think it makes colors a bit worse.

I didn't see this posted but there is another service menu that is entered by the super secret key sequence: "POWER" then select "cancel" then UP arriw, DOWN arrow, UP arrow, DOWN arrow and then ENTER.


From here you can access the self check menu where the lamp reset counter resides. Some other stuff as well.


Would there be a reason why this process for getting into this other service menu wouldn't work for me? The method of going to the "OSD" option and holding enter for a few seconds works. Maybe firmware?... but I think I need to use the "Power" method to check that.

Would there be a reason why this process for getting into this other service menu wouldn't work for me? The method of going to the "OSD" option and holding enter for a few seconds works. Maybe firmware?... but I think I need to use the "Power" method to check that.

How did you interpret then select "cancel"? Did you highlight the cancel button and press enter, or just highlight the cancel button? You should be doing the latter.

How did you interpret then select "cancel"? Did you highlight the cancel button and press enter, or just highlight the cancel button? You should be doing the latter.


Ahhh...I think I did do it by hitting enter 1st.. I will try it again tonight. Thanks for the help!

Eric Awtry-- is there a way to set the CCM levels that you have posted on the first page WITHOUT a DVE or AVIA disk?? How do I go in and do it if I can? Also for settings on the first page that do not specify the contrast, brightness, tint , etc. info-- what are those numbers or are they all zero??

I was showing my wife the nice quality of HD the other way when a basketball game was on both HD channel and non-HD channel at the same time. It was quite impressive.

Well today I figured out that I can get the cable box to output 1080i as opposed to scaling down to 480i and sending that to the projector. Now the picture is REALLY good. Put the earlier picture to shame.

THere is just one problem. In 1080i mode the projector seems to loose quite a bit of intensity. Day viewing is not nice at all, though the picture itself is beautiful. So I chose Dynamic Picture Mode since thats for day viewing. The problem is this seems to add a considerable green tint. Is everyone else experiencing this :confused:

dnoyeB- Yes. We all see the green yellows with Dynamic mode. You need to do some adjusting to the gamma using the settings posted on the first page of this thread and get advise from Mike and Eric, other if necessary. I'm just a AE900 enthusiast following along with what's suggested here mostly. I toggle back and forth between Normal modes and dynamic for the most part (both adjusted using Mike's settings for 81C filter). After that you can pick (up to 8) colors that you can tweak using the advanced menu. Purist probably will frown on this part, but I kinda like being able to "punch up" a specific color in a movie for enhanced effect. Shades of pink, yellow and green are the colors I've worked on in this using my reference CRT as a guide. I toggle between setting were these tweaked colors are saved and the modes saved using only Mike's settings. I don't watch anything on the projector without fully controlling the light (i.e. blackout shades drawn), so I can't speak to your other issue. -Don

in order to do the CCM color tweak do I have to use DVE or AVIA?? or can I just use the projector?

Without calibration equipment, you can only use the CCM settings that Eric posted and see how they look with your particular projector. If you want to see what's happening in the adjustment, use the Avia or DVE color windows or fields. Since all AE900s oversaturate green and (to a lesser degree) red, you can use Eric's settings as a starting point.

is there a convergance on the 900???, how do i open up the menu for it?. white letters have blue and red on edges of them.
also some dvds look good like star wars, but matrix looks bad and flat, dull even. im using a diy 120" screen with behr ss paint. is it my screen? im using a sony 75h upconversion dvd player. completely dark room. my 65" mitts looks much better. i know im doin somthing wrong, i used erics 4/02/06 set up on page #1 on this thread. im frustrated with pic. please help this sooper pj noob.

p.s. my comcast hd looks very good..... im using a 20' hdmi cable form blue jeans cables.
hmmmm sounds like my dvd player isnt set up right......grrrrrrrr.......i need help.....

"is there a convergance on the 900???, how do i open up the menu for it?. white letters have blue and red on edges of them."//russ2387
....................
Russ, It sounds like your convergence is really not bad, none of these projectors are perfect. If you really want see how your convergence looks use a crosshatch pattern i.e. AVIA etc.
Your DIY screen is causing the other artifacts most likely. List your location and request seeing your projector on a HiPower screen (my choice) or some other quality screen. If you manage that task and you'll be amazed at the image quality compared to what you have now. Your missing allot.

edit:
forgot part of your question, NO, there are no service menu adjustments for registration.

question for you...when I went to CKL's review and to get his callibration numbers, the numbers for cinema 1 were different at his review than on the first page?? is there a reason??

Okay guys. I had enough time to calibrate the AE900 in Cinema 1 Mode without a filter today. I am very proud of the results although I think the numbers are a bit different from my last PJ. Remember, this one is a Sept 2005 build date and showed more of a red bias than the others. My final calibration yielded a color temp of 6617 from 0-100 IRE with a Delta Error of 1.1. Thats pretty strong stuff considering that from 30-90 it is tracking very close to a perfect 6480K. The On/Off contrast measure an oustanding 2042:1. Now my meter is probably not the best for this but I used the same technics I always have to get to my number so all the variables are the same. Gamma tracked at 2.25. Okay, now for some numbers

Contrast -3
Bright +3
Color -2
Tint 0
Sharp -2
Color Temp 0

Gamma
H -1
M -1
L +1

Constrast
R 0
G -4
B +2

Bright
R -1
G 0
B -2

Now for some more interesting numbers. I used CCM to set up a nearly perfect SMPTE CIE chart. The colors are oversaturated so most are reduced. I used a 1.3 gain white screen for reference so this will work for many users. I adjusted only 5 points consisting of Red, Green, Cyan, Magenta and Yellow. You can adjust blue with overall saturation (Color in the PJs Menu).

CCM Numbers
Point 1 Red Color -15 Tint 0 Bright 0
Point 2 Green Color -18 Tint 0 Bright 0
Point 3 Cyan Color -20 Tint 0 Bright 0
Point 4 Magenta Color -16 Tint -2 Bright 0
Point 5 Yellow Color -18 Tint -4 Bright 0

Try these out and see what you think.

EDIT>>>
I changed my Gamma Low setting to +1. The gamma on the AE900 measures better and more uniformly at +5 but the image becomes more washed out. This brings up another point. I think Panny has the Gamma controls reversed on this PJ. It seems as if my other 900 had Gamma values in the -3 to -5 range instead of the + range. :confused:

Eric and Mark,

Are the above CCM settings also valid for Mark´s settings in Normal mode using an 81C filter?
Thanks
Federico

Eric and Mark,

Are the above CCM settings also valid for Mark´s settings in Normal mode using an 81C filter?
Thanks
Federico


No. These numbers are for a PJ without a filter. The filter will throw the color balance off and would need the CCM re-calibrated.

Eric how do I adjust those 5 points you did if I don't have a callibration disk-- can you tell me step by step how to get to the point where I see those 5 colors listed and see where I chnage the numbers...I have tried by going into the CCM butI must be misunderstanding how to do it cuz it doesn't allow me to do what you are doing. Thx!

Eric how do I adjust those 5 points you did if I don't have a callibration disk-- can you tell me step by step how to get to the point where I see those 5 colors listed and see where I chnage the numbers...I have tried by going into the CCM butI must be misunderstanding how to do it cuz it doesn't allow me to do what you are doing. Thx!

You really cannot do it correctly without a Color Analyzer, much less a calibration disc. You need full field color primaries and secondaries. The CCM will allow you to take a snapshot with the cursor of the color you are working with. You log that color then adjust Saturation and Hue then assign it to a user. Then when that user log is in use, all colors are effected by the adjustments. Trust me, you will mess things up worse than make them better unless you have to proper instruments. I would hire a calibrator or send it to me. I will calibrate it for you. Of course, that would need to be handled completely of the forums.

As Eric mentioned, without the proper equipment you will probably only make things worse. Absent the availability of a proper color analyser, I would suggest that you just use Eric's CCM numbers, decreasing the saturation reduction if it doesn't look good on your particular projector. If you don't like the results, you can always go back to not using CCM.

BTW, the filters I've used do not affect the color saturation very much and the CCM adjustments are fairly consistent with or without a filter.

But how do I plug in Eric's CCM numbers that he has listed? Also, Eric on the first page of callibrations you don't always mention contast, tint etc. I noticed that also with Mike-- does this mean all those numbers are zero?

But how do I plug in Eric's CCM numbers that he has listed? Also, Eric on the first page of callibrations you don't always mention contast, tint etc. I noticed that also with Mike-- does this mean all those numbers are zero?
I think your put up the color bars in DVE and move the cursor over each color that Eric specified starting with red and enter the values.I did all of this and the results are spectacular! Thanks Eric and mike!

but MIke said "absent" the proper equipment...which leads me to believe that there is a way to plug the numbers into the projector without DVE-- MIKE OR ERIC am I wrong??

You still need to display color fields or bars with a test disk. You place the cursor over red (for example), click on it and then reduce the saturation using Eric's numbers.

The reason I don't mention the global contrast, brightness, color and tint settings is that they may differ greatly from setup to setup and projector to projector. Also, those are adjustments that you can easily do yourself without any calibration equipment, using DVE, Avia or even the THX Optimizer found on many DVDs.

ok, got it so I really should just get a callibration disk for those numbers.

Do Eric´s latest settings for cinema 1 with CCM adjustments have better results than the calibration setting with the 81C filter?

Do Eric´s latest settings for cinema 1 with CCM adjustments have better results than the calibration setting with the 81C filter?

Depends on what type of improvement you're looking for. Ideally, you'd want to use both the CCM adjustments AND a filter, as they're doing different things. The CCM adjustments are to reduce the oversaturation (which many people like even if it's not accurate) of the primary and secondary colors. The filter is to improve contrast ratio and black level.

OK, I finally got around to calibrating my ae900 using Avia last night. Let me start out by saying I'm a total novice at this.. Long story short, I ended up with Contrast+13, Brigtness -17, color -6, tint 0, sharpness -2. The large offsets on my contrast and brightness don't even come close to the other settings listed here. Does anyone find it odd that ended up with these numbers? This is using my 360 as my DVD player with no filter on a 94" Pollywall screen in total darkness.

Depends on what type of improvement you're looking for. Ideally, you'd want to use both the CCM adjustments AND a filter, as they're doing different things. The CCM adjustments are to reduce the oversaturation (which many people like even if it's not accurate) of the primary and secondary colors. The filter is to improve contrast ratio and black level.

Thanks Mike for the explanation. Then it would be great to have CCM adjustments settings for those who have a 81C filter.... I look forward to it :)

OK, I finally got around to calibrating my ae900 using Avia last night. Let me start out by saying I'm a total novice at this.. Long story short, I ended up with Contrast+13, Brigtness -17, color -6, tint 0, sharpness -2. The large offsets on my contrast and brightness don't even come close to the other settings listed here. Does anyone find it odd that ended up with these numbers? This is using my 360 as my DVD player with no filter on a 94" Pollywall screen in total darkness.

What preset picture mode are you starting from?

Hi guys, I am a mod and regular over at audioholics but don't get over here much. I just purchased a new panny and have been playing with it for the last week now. I used Eric's latest settings and they look really good, thanks Eric for all your time invested it has taught me a lot about this projector. I am sure it could look even better tweaked with some good gear. What do you think of the Data Color Spyder2 Pro? will get me where I need to be?

The reason I am looking at it is because it is mac os x compatable. Thanks guys :)

Jeff

What do you think of the Data Color Spyder2 Pro? will get me where I need to be?

Jeff

I've no opinion so I might be considered useless, but I can recommend the AVS Display Calibration (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=139) forum where you are likely to get the ideas you seek.

As a welcome gift here is a list of about 40+ threads from that forum wherein the Spyder2Pro is mentioned - at least in passing.
Click here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/search.php?searchid=7391449)

Not so sure of its utility with FPj's, however.

May your new pj bring you as much fun as mine has.
ted

May your new pj bring you as much fun as mine has.
ted


Thanks, so far so good :D Thanks for the links looks like the pro is the only one that will calibrate a FP.

Thanks, so far so good :D Thanks for the links looks like the pro is the only one that will calibrate a FP.

If you are in no rush, ther is reputed to be a "Pro" version of the SpyderTV that is designed with FP in mind.

Again, ted not know.

ted

Quote:
Originally Posted by slydog75
OK, I finally got around to calibrating my ae900 using Avia last night. Let me start out by saying I'm a total novice at this.. Long story short, I ended up with Contrast+13, Brigtness -17, color -6, tint 0, sharpness -2. The large offsets on my contrast and brightness don't even come close to the other settings listed here. Does anyone find it odd that ended up with these numbers? This is using my 360 as my DVD player with no filter on a 94" Pollywall screen in total darkness.

What preset picture mode are you starting from?


Oh, sorry.. I did these adjustments in Cinema1.. the pic looks good to me, but I just find it odd that my numbers are so different.

What DVD player are you using with AVIA? Check your player's video settings.

OK, I finally got around to calibrating my ae900 using Avia last night. Let me start out by saying I'm a total novice at this.. Long story short, I ended up with Contrast+13, Brigtness -17, color -6, tint 0, sharpness -2. The large offsets on my contrast and brightness don't even come close to the other settings listed here. Does anyone find it odd that ended up with these numbers? This is using my 360 as my DVD player with no filter on a 94" Pollywall screen in total darkness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slydog75
OK, I finally got around to calibrating my ae900 using Avia last night. Let me start out by saying I'm a total novice at this.. Long story short, I ended up with Contrast+13, Brigtness -17, color -6, tint 0, sharpness -2. The large offsets on my contrast and brightness don't even come close to the other settings listed here. Does anyone find it odd that ended up with these numbers? This is using my 360 as my DVD player with no filter on a 94" Pollywall screen in total darkness.




Oh, sorry.. I did these adjustments in Cinema1.. the pic looks good to me, but I just find it odd that my numbers are so different.

I agree. Check your player to be sure that some of its settings aren't set to something besides off. Generally speaking, you want to calibrate the display, not the source.

What screen are you using? -17 brightness in Cinema 1 mode does seem a bit odd.

Just updated my ae700u with dim lamp to a 900u. I calibrated the unit in Cinema 1 using Avia and also used Eric's tweeks. While watching 24 Monday night their seems to be a green push on people's faces. I see it in all picture modes, even Cinema 1 after adjusting settings. Fan seems to be loud. Lastly, their seems to be color distortion due to horizontal banding. Do I have a defective unit? ANy help would be greatly appreciated. Loved my 700u but this one is making me stay awake at night...

If you have the fan on its Low setting, it should be very quiet. If its not, you may have a defective unit. Regarding the green push, try going back to the default settings in the advanced menu and see if its still there.

One thing that's been mentioned in the past in this thread is that there is a wide variation between units. This makes it difficult to totally rely on either Eric's or my settings. For example, if I use Eric's settings with mine, I get a a pronounced blue push. Others who use my settings get too much red. Take a look at my graphs using Eric's settings on my AE900 to see the differences. They're posted here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7030928&&#post7030928).

Thanks for the reply Mike. The green push was there from day 1. I thought the tweeks may remove it. Ever heard of the orizontal color banding? I can see the horizontal lines in some scenes and it distorts color.

Just got my ae900 in yesterday, watched some of the Cavs vs. Wizards game in HD and a show on NBC called Conviction in HD, and man am I impressed with this projector! It looked really good right out of the box, without any calibration. I plan to calibrate this weekend using Avia.

I was wondering, for the best PQ, should NR be on or off? How about Cinema Reality? (what is that, by the way?) And I'm assuming Overscan should be off, right?

VP30 + AE900U owners: Anyone care to post the how-to on 1:1 mapping? I'm strongly considering the AE900U to replace my aging G1000, (still a great picture, a bit dim, but noisy fans).

Thanks in advance for any tips.

Mark,

Standard 720p with overscan off is 1:1 mapped. Refresh rate of 59.94hz (what most call 60hz).

Shawn

Shawn: Thanks, that's just too easy. :) Nothing like getting a Dila system dialied with the phase adjustment, sw load for 1080, etc.

Hey guys after about 10 days of watching, tweaking, watching and tweaking, I think I have mine looking pretty good. Strange thing is I can't seem to get flesh tones to look good in the cinema1 mode there is too much green intrusion and I can't get rid of it. Normal mode looks much better in this regard at the sacrafice of the grey scale bouncing around a bit more. Not bad just about + - 300 deg from 20-100ire. I used the spyder2 pro meter to check grey scale and I have a 106in Carada BW screen. Here is what I ended up with. Thanks to all for the amount work you all did.

Here is a link to the room for a look see http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=177396#post177396

Picture mode - Normal
Contrast -5
Brightness -10
Color -7
Tint +1
Sharp -4
DI on
NR on

GH 0
GM -3
GL+1
CR +1
CG 0
CB 0
BR-2
BG 0
BB -1

I have got terrible vertical banding going on, can anyone tell me if there is a way to tweak the projector to get rid of this annoyance?

Now that the I'm finding the black level more visible, I'm considering getting a filter for the projector. The screen is a 1.0 gain, matte white screen. Is there any consensus on the best filter that combines better black level without unreasonable loss of light output? I was thinkign of going with the 81c from reeading most of these threads.

Check out page one of this thread. I would suggest that the 81c gives the best balance of decent contrast with low light loss. I have tried them all. You might want to consider a 67mm filter and a 77mm step down ring. It is cheaper if you want to try several filters.

Is there a way to adjust gamma, contrast, and bright correctly without having professional calibration equipment?

I have used Avia and calibrated the rest of the settings and it looks pretty darn good, but the gamma, contrast, and bright settings are still default, since I didn't know how to calibrate them using Avia (if that's even possible). I didn't want to just adjust them in a "hit and miss" fashion or just "eyeball" them since there are too many variables and combinations.

Any advice? :)

^ anyone? ^

Is there a way to adjust gamma, contrast, and bright correctly without having professional calibration equipment?

Not really. Your best bet is to try some of the settings posted on the first page of this thread and then put up a grey ramp pattern. Then adjust the RGB controls depending on what you see. For example, if you see too much red in the lighter greys, turn down the Red contrast a bit. If you see too much blue in the darker greys, turn down the Blue brightness. That's about as good as you can get without equipment.

Thanks for your reply Mike.

Check out page one of this thread. I would suggest that the 81c gives the best balance of decent contrast with low light loss. I have tried them all. You might want to consider a 67mm filter and a 77mm step down ring. It is cheaper if you want to try several filters.

What does it do for black levels? I do not want to sacrifice contrast, but would primarily be using a filter to reduce black levels while balancing light loss.

David, You want to increase not reduce black levels. The 81C will help you get a better CR ratio. You may get slightly higher contrast with the 81EF but the light outuput is reduced. I find that the 81C is the best compromise. I suggested buying the 67mm filter with the 77mm step down ring since it is cheaper and you can buy other 81 filters to try if you don't like the 81C.

I have the 81C, and it does nothing for black level as far as I can see.

It does make it a bit more difficult to get the color right.

Rwestley,
We mean the same thing, just using different terms. I was under the impression that an "increased" black level meant higher lumen output, which is not what we want. You are using it to suggest "better black level", which is what I'm looking for too.

I guess if the 81c does nothing for black level, I won't use it. I'm content with the contrast of the projector. However, I've commented before that I find the black level to be lacking. On a 1.0 gain matte white, 133" diagonal 16x9 screen, in a light controlled room, the "black" of the projector is a rather illuminated grey.

I'm wondering if an ND filter would be more appropriate in my case. Although, I thought that the 81c does reduce the light output which would necessarily help the black level. Is this not the case?

I'm not convinced that a filter will be your answer. If you calibrate after installing any light reducing filter, you'll find it necessary to increase the brightness in the projector from where it would be with a non-filtered setting. I had to increase the contrast as well. Combined, this brought the black level back up to about where it was (at least I can't tell the difference), and it left the color very difficult to dial in. I took the 81C off and went back to Cinema 1 mode.

I don't doubt the contrast folks are measuring with filters in place, but in my case the filter just didn't accomplish what I had hoped in the area of black level.

Is your matte white screen really white, or is it a light grey? In my experience, the 900 needs a grey screen to produce blacks that are acceptable to me, and you may be in the same boat.

i hope its better than my nec 240k

CKL, do you have any tests of the ae900 with the 81c filter on dynamic(highest contrast) on low lamp mode?

Hi Guys (and Gals!)
Is the Firmware version secret menu item still eluding us, or was it found?
I was hoping a new Firmware will, miraculously, fix the shift problem with my MYHD card.
Thanks

Well, as a follow up to this, I got several filters to play with: a .15 ND filter, a .3 ND filter and a 81C filter. These were all basic plastic sheet versions, and not glass filters. I got them to test what I could expect if I purchased a full glass filter.

The .15 ND filter did not do much in terms of reducing the brightness. The 0.3 ND filter, which is about a 50% reduction in light output (1 stop), obviously did have a substantial impact on overal brightness. The 0.3 ND filter did reduce the black level. However, I guess due to the nature of absolute black level, even a marked reduction still doesn't seem like its doing enough.

I'm sure if I walked in the room with the .3 ND filter on, I wouldn't notice the effect on the brightness, but when you do an A-B compare of the projector with the filter on and off, the decrease in the brightness and "punch" is substantial. I usually like a dim picture, but seeing the sacrifice made is tough.

I wonder, for anyone who has seen the Sony hs-51a (hs60), with its apparently superior black level due to lower overall brightness, is there a marked difference in the brightness between it and the AE900?

As for the 81c filter, I did try it. As per the earlier commentary, it did very little in terms of black level because the light reduction it causes was minimal. There was a shift in colour and I used Mike's settings on the first page of this thread. I don't think I"ll be using it as I don't have the calibration equipment and DVD's necessary to properly calibrate it.

Do note, I'm in a completely light controlled room.

Well guys after playing some more I could not find any modes I could get to look good and track a accurate greyscale other than cinema 1. I also played around with an 81c filter and did not like that either. The only issue I have is red around the edges mostly at the bottom corners. My greyscale is accurate from 20-100 but I clearly see the red on the whiter screens. Is this something that I should be concerned about? Is there something I can do to get rid of it or is the optics or panels?

It's not unusual to have a slight red (or blue) tint on the edges if you display a 100 IRE full screen. I can see a little red on the right edge with mine. This is not noticeable during normal viewing however. You could try some of the panel adjustments in the service menu, but it's likely that you won't get rid of it completely.

Mike, how do I get into the service menu? I know I read it somewhere in this thread but I can't find it.

select options, and on OSD keep holding the enter button for 5 seconds

What do these panel adustments do exactly? and what would one be looking for when adjusting them? I looked at them but I do not want to change any settings without knowing what they are doing exactly.

The adjustments don't really do much and they're not even mentioned in the service manual. Most likely it would fine tune panel convergence. I just thought it might be something to try. I've adjusted them to their extremes without much noticeable change. Just make sure you mark down the original settings so you can always go back to where they were.

Thanks Mike, I will give it a try if I have time tonight. I have to work on a school project with the youngest one tonight so I don't know how much time for playing I will have :(

RE: Using 81C filters and Black level/Contrast
I have followed the latest posts and have been surprised with the responses that the 81C filter has not made a noticable difference in the picture. I am not doubting these observations at all, just surprised.

My experience with the 81C filter using the custom inputs from Mike, Eric and CK's settings (with 81A+B/dynamic) has been very positive in my room environment. I have a completely light controlled room with creme colored walls. 100" HCCV Da-Lite screen with the projector mounted at about 15' on the ceiling.

What I noticed was a reduction in light level and a correpsonding increase in the contrasts and black levels - my wife also noticed the differences. Using House of Flying Daggers as a benchmark, the bright reds stood out much better against the darker backgrounds and the night chase/fight scenes were richer in detail.

I have settled mostly on Eric's settings although I use them all for different movies or moods. Mike's settings, with my projector had a slightly green push vs. the others and were overall darker. The settings on dynamic were more dramatic but some of the suttle color shades seemed to be missing (although very close).

Have any others tried these three settings? What are your opinions of these using the 81C? Any favorites? If so, why?

One thing for sure, I really had to adjust the contrast and brightness levels up quite a bit when using the filter using AVIA setup disk with the black bar pattern and the white moving bar pattern. It took much higher levels to adjust the two bars on each pattern correctly.

Well, at least in my environment I think the 81C made a significant difference and to me at least the resulting picture is more "movie like" vs. the non-filtered picture. I would recommend tyring it out if you are on the fence. I got it for about $60 online.

Jim

The adjustments don't really do much and they're not even mentioned in the service manual. Most likely it would fine tune panel convergence. I just thought it might be something to try. I've adjusted them to their extremes without much noticeable change. Just make sure you mark down the original settings so you can always go back to where they were.

what were the original settings? I too put the red at both extremes and did not notice any different in the way the pixels lined up (have a slight red edge on some lines)...we're they all 15?

One thing I discovered is when setting the greyscale I had to turn the DI off. When I turn it on it gets too warm in the bottom end. Is this normal? should I be concerned at all? Should I leave it off or on after setting the greyscale?

RE: Using 81C filters and Black level/Contrast
I have followed the latest posts and have been surprised with the responses that the 81C filter has not made a noticable difference in the picture. I am not doubting these observations at all, just surprised.

My experience with the 81C filter using the custom inputs from Mike, Eric and CK's settings (with 81A+B/dynamic) has been very positive in my room environment. I have a completely light controlled room with creme colored walls. 100" HCCV Da-Lite screen with the projector mounted at about 15' on the ceiling.

What I noticed was a reduction in light level and a correpsonding increase in the contrasts and black levels - my wife also noticed the differences. Using House of Flying Daggers as a benchmark, the bright reds stood out much better against the darker backgrounds and the night chase/fight scenes were richer in detail.

I have settled mostly on Eric's settings although I use them all for different movies or moods. Mike's settings, with my projector had a slightly green push vs. the others and were overall darker. The settings on dynamic were more dramatic but some of the suttle color shades seemed to be missing (although very close).

Have any others tried these three settings? What are your opinions of these using the 81C? Any favorites? If so, why?

One thing for sure, I really had to adjust the contrast and brightness levels up quite a bit when using the filter using AVIA setup disk with the black bar pattern and the white moving bar pattern. It took much higher levels to adjust the two bars on each pattern correctly.

Well, at least in my environment I think the 81C made a significant difference and to me at least the resulting picture is more "movie like" vs. the non-filtered picture. I would recommend tyring it out if you are on the fence. I got it for about $60 online.

Jim

To put my situation in perspective, I have a totally light controlled room, walls painted 18% grey. Admittedly, I don't have the tools, nor the eye, to fix colour issues when using the filter which is why I likely didn't continue fiddling with it. However, I was going to use the filter primarily to fix black levels, and the reduction in light outut was cimply not that substantial. Furthermore, you mention that you had to adjuust the contrast and brightness levels up quiet a bit. Would this not negate any of the black level benefits of using the filter?

I'm sure the warming filter works well for colour and pure contrast issues based on the red-limiting factors of the projector bulb. But from a black level perspective, I don't think it did much. Maybe the fact that you are using a HCCV screen, vs. the Matte White I'm currently using, accounts for the difference. I didn't use Eriks settings because I don't have an HCCV screen.

Thanks Dave,
Not sure about the brightness and contrast, I just adjusted to the AVIA specs, that's a good point and I have no idea! I just know, at least IMHO, the picture was better for me.

I am certainly not questioning your results or your experiences, just sharing mine.
Thanks for the note.

Jim

Well, I played around again last night with the 81c filter. I tried normal, natural and Dynamic modes and I could not come up with a setting that I liked on any of them. I only have the spyder2 pro to work with but all of those modes are very difficult to get the grayscale to track accurately through the fields. Cinema 1 without a filter is the only mode I have liked so far. Has anyone used a filter on Cinema 1? I might try that next.

The other thing is, when I bring up the grey ramps and I have the settings at default, I have a lot of red in the white areas and some green too, I have to really cut a lot with the contrast settings to get the grey ramps to look like shades of grey. Once get the ramps looking to my eye that they are grey then I can go set the greyscale with the fields. Am I doing that correctly? I now have it pretty darn accurate from 20 to 100 +- about 175 deg or so.

Also, are the grey ramps a good way to fine tune black level and white level, I get close with the test patterns but then when I check the ramps the last two on both ends are usally blended together. If then cut back one step or so they all come into view. Am I correct in doing this too? It is amazing how different these projectors vary from one another.

Thanks Dave,
Not sure about the brightness and contrast, I just adjusted to the AVIA specs, that's a good point and I have no idea! I just know, at least IMHO, the picture was better for me.

I am certainly not questioning your results or your experiences, just sharing mine.
Thanks for the note.

Jim

Sorry if it seemed as if my response was retaliatory. Not my intention. Thank you for sharing. I am certain that the lack of benefit in my case is a result of my lack of calibration tools and ability and knowledge to use them even if I had them. I was looking for a reduction in black level versus any colorometric tweaks, which is why the 81C may not be that beneficial in my situation.

In my theater, the 81C did lower the black level and improve contrast significantly to my eyes. I have a light controlled room and neutral grey screen and only use the projector on low light output setting. I used AVIA to do the initial black level setting, but I think that where people are getting tripped up is that AVIA uses a 1/2 white and 1/2 black screen to simulate the light output of your projector in an AVERAGE light output scene. Now, the place I want to improve black level (and I'm sure you do too) is in a very dark scenes- so the AVIA setting is not doing the trick entirely. Try this- with the filter in place use AVIA to set the black level (the test pattern with the two grey bars moving on the black half of the screen to simulate shadow detail). Then put in a dark movie (Blade II or you get the idea) and then watching a dark scene (like where people are wearing black leather at night) and tweak the brightness until you maximize the shadow detail. You'll need to increase the brighness a smidge or two if I remember correctly. The result is a much better shadow detial using a real movie picture to than using AVIA alone. Increasing the brightness a smidge does not defeat the filter since the filter cuts out much more light than you add back when tweaking. I think the filter is a great trweak and would not watch anything without the 81C filter- to test this just hold the filter in your hand and pass it over the lens and compare any image coming out of the projector- it always looks better (better blacks and contrast IMO) with the filter in place.

Oh I forgot to mention - the reasoin AVIA isn't perfect to set black level also is because the auto-iris is going to be set differently for the 1/2 white + 1/2 black screen in AVIA compared to the very dark scene movie scene. In essence when you only use AVIA to set black level you are using a greater relative percent brighter picture and different light output setting (i.e. the auto-iris setting) than what's in the picture your trying to optimize (i.e. a dark scene of a movie).

That's why I got the GetGray caldisc (www.calibrate.tv). It has the Brightness test pattern at a 0% APL and the Contrast test pattern at 100% APL (and is mastered in 16:9 format).

I am using the 81C filter and I agree the GetGrey caldisk is the best to use with the AE900.
I own all the disks and the GetGrey disk helps with the final tweaks. One must remember thant both AVIA and DVE were made for CRT displays.

...I'm sure the warming filter works well for colour and pure contrast issues based on the red-limiting factors of the projector bulb. But from a black level perspective, I don't think it did much. Maybe the fact that you are using a HCCV screen, vs. the Matte White I'm currently using, accounts for the difference. I didn't use Eriks settings because I don't have an HCCV screen.

I use a HCCV screen and noticed little to no difference in black level with the 81C. David, I'm sure your black level deficiency is due to your white screen.

I've seen the 900 on a Carada classic white screen, and I simply wasn't satisfied with the result. If I had to put some coarse numbers to it, I'd say that black level is improved 15 to 20% with the light grey HCCV. I have a large sample of Carada's HCG material, and it improves black level over the HCCV another 15 to 20%. Whites are more accurate on the HCCV, but I'm sure your eye would learn to resolve whites after a short time with a darker grey material. Colors are fine on either grey screen.

I'm certain the black level issue is in relation to the white screen. As for the above discussion with Randomcreek, I guess i'm talking about absolute black level. I.e. I send the projector a black field and look at the screen. The 81C filter does reduce the black level slightly, but not much. I.e. when I "shutter" the projector, I can't assume changes in brightness and contrast have any affect. There is a bottom floor for the black level, and the 81C doesn't really change it too much, from what I saw.

I will look into other screen material.

EDIT:
I just read on projector central that, basically, you should use a white screen in a properly light controlled room. I guess this does not necessarily look at the effects that a grey screen has on the black level.

There is a bottom floor for the black level, and the 81C doesn't really change it too much, from what I saw.


The 81C drops output about 1/3 of an F stop. This amounts to a light drop of about 16 %. (One stop is a 50% change so the math is .33 x .5). Most people require about 3/4 of a stop before they notice any real difference. The real value of CC filters with pjs is the ability to balance the drive amps more evenly. i.e. normal UHP bulbs being RED deficient require running the RED amps higher than the GREEN and BLUE. The filter allows for better D65 while allowing more gain from the Green and Blue. The over all effect of this is greater On/Off. The lumens drop is a beneficial side effect for blacks but it is only within the transmission ratings of the filter - 1/3 of a stop in the case of a LEE 81C assuming bias settings are correct.

http://www.smartavtweaks.com/index.html
http://www.smartavtweaks.com/dummies3.html

A grey screen, though meant for rejecting ambient light, may help, but with the corresponding loss of white. You could try a High gain grey per bubbawilly's suggestion. If you've eliminated all light sources in your HT (those little equipment LED's can raise your black level considerably) then you may have reached the limits of satisfaction of your pj. I know I have (ok my room still has some room for improvement).

My 700 is filtered with an 81 EF (about 2/3 stop) and I'm quite happy with 8 to 10 ft lamberts off the screen. With a good bulb I've about 2K:1 On/Off but want more. My next pj will have to have measured 10K:1 before I consider it worthwhile the change.

David, perhaps you are a candidate for DLP, but there will be trade offs.

ted

I've read the recommendations about when to use white vs. grey as well. I understand their reasoning, but I've yet to see an entry to mid-level digital projector in my system (LCD or DLP) that didn't benefit greatly from my grey screen, and my room is dark grey and fully light controlled. I guess that I'm just a nut for black level.

Good point on the "absolute black level." The 81C may help slightly with the levels above black (probably by removing some of the blue), but it did not lower the floor as far as I could see either.

The 81C may help slightly with the levels above black (probably by removing some of the blue), but it did not lower the floor as far as I could see either.

Even a full stop is not a lot in an absolute sense. The filter *does* lower the overall output but the 81C's 1/3 stop is minor. It is measurable but in most cases unnoticeable. The On/Off is where the real benefit lies. So I'm really just supporting what you've indicated.

If anyone wants to truly lower blacks - use an ND filter with higher transmission loss. The impact on the lumens is intolerable for many though, and it doesn't help the colour balance leaving the primaries in their original relationship (RED overdriven). There are always trade offs.

ted

Sorry Ted. I started typing a reply to David, and then stepped away to finish getting the kids off to school. ;) Your post came in before I hit the "post reply" button, and I didn't see it until my screen refreshed.

Your explanation makes perfect sense, and it corresponds exactly with my 81C experience.

I agree that David may be a candidate for DLP. I'm living with a 900 for now, but I had a DLP for a short time between my AE300 and the 900, and it spoiled me regarding true contrast and black level. Both attributes contribute to a richer, more 3D image. I'm only hanging on to the 900 because the latest crop of 720P DLP units all seem to have some quirks that I don't think that I can live with. The IN76 is a jet engine, the PE7700 is a lamp failure waiting to happen, as is the Optoma H78. The offset on the Mits and Optoma HD72 won't work in my theater, and the newest Optoma 7100 has SDE up the wazoo. I'm keeping my eye on the Samsung, but I'm in no hurry.

Unless one has experienced the black level of a good DLP unit, it is easy to be satisfied with the 900.

"The filter *does* lower the overall output but the 81C's 1/3 stop is minor. It is measurable but in most cases unnoticeable. The On/Off is where the real benefit lies. So I'm really just supporting what you've indicated."

This doesn't make sense to me. If the black level is staying essentially the same and on/off CR is increasing, then brightness must be increasing.

Sorry Ted. I started typing a reply to David, and then stepped away to finish getting the kids off to school. ;) Your post came in before I hit the "post reply" button, and I didn't see it until my screen refreshed.

Your explanation makes perfect sense, and it corresponds exactly with my 81C experience.

I agree that David may be a candidate for DLP. I'm living with a 900 for now, but I had a DLP for a short time between my AE300 and the 900, and it spoiled me regarding true contrast and black level. Both attributes contribute to a richer, more 3D image. I'm only hanging on to the 900 because the latest crop of 720P DLP units all seem to have some quirks that I don't think that I can live with. The IN76 is a jet engine, the PE7700 is a lamp failure waiting to happen, as is the Optoma H78. The offset on the Mits and Optoma HD72 won't work in my theater, and the newest Optoma 7100 has SDE up the wazoo. I'm keeping my eye on the Samsung, but I'm in no hurry.

Unless one has experienced the black level of a good DLP unit, it is easy to be satisfied with the 900.
I think the new LED projectors are going to be the ones to get.... as they shuldn't put out the heat so little or no fan would be requird.

"The filter *does* lower the overall output but the 81C's 1/3 stop is minor. It is measurable but in most cases unnoticeable. The On/Off is where the real benefit lies. So I'm really just supporting what you've indicated."

This doesn't make sense to me. If the black level is staying essentially the same and on/off CR is increasing, then brightness must be increasing.

Though the overall lumens is lowering, the relative distance between black and white is increasing because you can effectively boost your blue and green white output and black is lowered somewhat (depending on the filter). The greater the cut the more you can maximize the differences.

Noah, I'm betting your math education is considerably better than mine but I've long term experience with F-stops. So lets assume a pj with 1K:1 on/off and a 10 to .01 Ft L range. With a filter of 1/2 stop you reduce the lumens by 25% so your black level would be 75% of the original or .0075. Assuming you are able to keep the white point at 10 Ft L by increasing your Green and Blue (and Red if the amp is not in clip) gains and your black level has decreased per above then your On/Off is ~1333:1. I say ~ because this would be ideal.

For me this is worth the effort. As I stated earlier, I use an EF with my 700 (about 1/2 stop) but then I am quite happy with 8 to 10 ft L for peak white and have been quite comfortable at 6.

CRT lumens, but not the blacks of course.

ted

That's why I got the GetGray caldisc (www.calibrate.tv). It has the Brightness test pattern at a 0% APL and the Contrast test pattern at 100% APL (and is mastered in 16:9 format).

Claus- I'll have to try this.

Ted,

'Assuming you are able to keep the white point at 10 Ft L by increasing your Green and Blue (and Red if the amp is not in clip) gains and your black level has decreased per above then your On/Off is ~1333:1. I say ~ because this would be ideal."

OK, but now it doesn't make sense in the other direction.

You've regained the white level by boosting B/G and the CR is increased by the reduced black level, but you said the black level didn't change perceivably.

So how can CR be perceivably better with the same brightness and same apparent black level?

T
OK, but now it doesn't make sense in the other direction.

You've regained the white level by boosting B/G and the CR is increased by the reduced black level, but you said the black level didn't change perceivably.

So how can CR be perceivably better with the same brightness and same apparent black level?

Not quite what I mean, I'm not saying it is apparent. It is there and it is measurable. I don't believe most people are able to perceive much less than a full stop brightness difference unless the two levels are next to each other but if viewed at different times it will not be so noticeable.

I do think it brings the differences the better On/Off provides, but absolute black level is subject to memory.

ted

Many things to reply to.
Firstly, DLP is out of the question. My eyes are sensitive to many visual effects, such as flourescent flicker, 60hz monitor flicker, etc, and the rainbow effect on DLP, even at high colour wheel speeds, is substantial for me. Do note the black level issue is not a make or break thing for me, althoguh it is important. I love the ae900 for all its postive features, although, as with my direct view TV's and computer monitors, I adjust for black level over overall brightness. Dim images are okay with me. I guess I need a CRT projector, but not the safety hazard it represents on low ceilings. ;)

I use and like Cinema 1 mode, which as has been stated, compensates already for the low red level of the UHP bulb. I think where people get higher contrast in using the 81C filter is that they can raise the brightness more because red is no longer limiting. At least that was my impression. That is why the other modes are so much brighter, because Normal and Dynamic do not compensate for the lack of red in the bulb. Also, rarely is the projector running at full tilt brightness, which might allow for room to calibrate, and that adjustments to brightness may not necessarily affect the black level floor, which, as we all know, there is no adjustment for.

Also, yes, the 81C has some reduction, but as noted, it is minor. I've tried boht a .3 and .6 ND filter (1 stop and 2stop). Obviously, the difference in black level was significant.

Unfortuantely, I've noticed one thing about black level. I find that unless it is absolute black, it is always noticeably deficient. Yes, the 2x ND filter did reduce the black level significantly, but, it was not substantial, if that distinction is understood. That is, compared to non-filtered, the black level was reduced, but it still was not very good, compared to the drastic decrease in brightness and image punch.

The side by side comparison you can try with filters, etc., makes it hard to go for the true "Best" picture quality versus what seems visually appealing. Bright images always seem to be better. But, if you walk into the room with the filter on totally and have no other reference, it looks fine.

I am in the process of getting a new screen, so I will look into some grey screens. I am looking at the HCCV, but have heard it has issues with sparkles, which I woudl not like. I just tried a large piece of black out cloth, but compared to our original matte white (off-white) screen, it was very warm, i.e. blue. It also had some sheen to it.

[As an aside, it is funny that they call the 81C filter a warming filter, when in fact, based on the Kelvin scale, warming would bring you more to the blue/white then red spectrum, which the 81C does. May photographers think differently than scientists.]

I am having an issue with green in cinema 1 mode. I have too much green in the picture even though I have the grayscale tracking good. When looking at the picture it has a green hue. In Natural mode, I get almost as accurate grayscale and the green is gone and it looks great. Why is my cinema 1 mode so green? I have to back off on the cuts and drives so much to that the picture is then too dim. I thought cinema 1 was supposed to be the more accurate mode. I have a very new projector, maybe they changed something again? I have not messed with cinema2 or 3 yet, I will give those a try this weekend. Any thoughts on why this is?

Many things to reply to.
Firstly, DLP is out of the question. My eyes are sensitive to many visual effects, such as flourescent flicker, 60hz monitor flicker, etc, and the rainbow effect on DLP, even at high colour wheel speeds, is substantial for me.

Those thoughts are something I might have written. Unfortunately single chip DLP leaves me fatigued and though I would like to stick sharp objects into a CRT they just won't work in my downtown home.

Also, yes, the 81C has some reduction, but as noted, it is minor. I've tried boht a .3 and .6 ND filter (1 stop and 2stop). Obviously, the difference in black level was significant.

David, since you seem willing to live with less lumens (and the 900 is brighter than the 700) you might take a chance on an 81 EF which has the same 2/3 F-stop loss that the .2 ND provides. Not optimum but might be reasonable for an interim solution. You could try and get a LEE Camera Filters sample pack and just place it in front of your lens as a test.

Other than that there are sunglasses. :p
You like me are hoping on an po' folks' RUBY perhaps?

[As an aside, it is funny that they call the 81C filter a warming filter, when in fact, based on the Kelvin scale, warming would bring you more to the blue/white then red spectrum, which the 81C does. May photographers think differently than scientists.]

Oh FOOF. :p
In my business its rare when we get above 3800 K unless we use Videssence (http://www.videssence.com/index2.html ) or go outside. Its the 'feel" man, the 'feel'. Snow ain't warm - last time I touched it anyway, but it is blue. ;)

ted

Those thoughts are something I might have written. Unfortunately single chip DLP leaves me fatigued and though I would like to stick sharp objects into a CRT they just won't work in my downtown home.



I jest about CRT. Even though they have superior image quality, convenience and efficiency does count for something. 3-LCD is the only route for me.


David, since you seem willing to live with less lumens (and the 900 is brighter than the 700) you might take a chance on an 81 EF which has the same 2/3 F-stop loss that the .2 ND provides. Not optimum but might be reasonable for an interim solution. You could try and get a LEE Camera Filters sample pack and just place it in front of your lens as a test.

Other than that there are sunglasses. :p
You like me are hoping on an po' folks' RUBY perhaps?



I think I'll just get a screen and settle for a bright image with mediocre black levels, or use an ND filter. I don't have the tools, time, nor skill to fiddle with settings, and I am suprisingly content with Cinema 1 as it is. A poor folks RUBY would be nice, but from what I know about the HS60, as an example, any gains in black level are directly related decrease in lumens. It seems that while they can increase the contrast of these panels, they can't seem to nail down the opacity of LCDs.


Oh FOOF. :p
In my business its rare when we get above 3800 K unless we use Videssence (http://www.videssence.com/index2.html ) or go outside. Its the 'feel" man, the 'feel'. Snow ain't warm - last time I touched it anyway, but it is blue. ;)

ted

Exactly, it is counterintuitive, but it is strange to mix the kelvin scale with subjective discussion of "warm" and "cool" for colours. The blue flame on a gas stove or the bbq is the hottest part. Touch > Sight ;)

Thanks again for all the replies. I don't want to make it sound like I dislike the ae900. The image quality jump from our old xv-s55u is astounding. And even on DLP I notice the absolute black level is still wanting.

The differences between what an 81x or CC filter is trying to do vs. an ND filter has been discussed previously on this thread. Basically, an 81x or CC filter is compensating for the projector lamp's deficiency in red. This allows for increased CR by allowing an more equal boost in RGB contrast, while limiting the light output at lower levels. This allows you to use the higher output settings like Dynamic or Normal to maintain a higher lumen output at 100 IRE after calibration, while lowering the output at 0 IRE.

Steve Smallcombe has a good explanation of the two filter in the 2nd and 3rd filter discussions here (http://www.smartavtweaks.com/FAQ.html#filter).

That all being said, you really need a grey screen to make blacks look blacker with an LCD projector. The 81C filter coupled with a GreyWolf II starts to approach my CRT RPTV (but it's not there yet :D ).

How does one go about calibrating the projector when using the 81c filter, without professional equipment?

How does one go about calibrating the projector when using the 81c filter, without professional equipment?
same way you would without an 81c. Get a DVE disc and get to work. Also, is it true that a grey screen will limit the bulb life(E.G. make the bulb work harder)?

So you don't require any measuring tools?

And as per the grey screen, the screen itself technically has no impact, unless you decide to run the bulb in high power mode to compensate for the decrease in brightness the gray screen might create.

I finally got around to fitting my 81C filter on the Panny (it had been sitting around for over 3 months now!) and calibrate using the Spyder2Pro. I am running all inputs through an iScan HD with SDI and sending the output as 720P via component cable.

All calibration was done using the full field grays in the GetGray dvd. To start with I set the brightness and contrast and rechecked them between each run after adjusting the other controls. I used the full field patterns (rather than the windowed ones) since I wanted to keep the Dynamic Iris ON while calibrating and did not want the Panny to kick that in to compensate.

I first tried using the "Normal" mode, set the color temp to "-3" to do a rough calibration and then and adjusted the grayscale and gamma. I was not too thrilled with the gamma tracking however at the end. The three controls had to be moved a lot and the tracking was not smooth. So I set the color temp back to "0" and redid everything. The resulting grayscale fit was not quite flat and I was getting a dip in the blue at around 60IRE. Could not eliminate that, no matter what I tried. However the 0IRE to 100IRE contrast ratio was a whopping 4284 ! In addition, the three Gammas (Blue, Green and Red) looked quite different from each other.

I next went back to "Cinema1" mode and redid everything. This gave me the best compromise. The gamma was smooth at around 2.4 and the color balance was reasonably flat. My measured deltaE hovered under 2 in all places between 20IRE and 90IRE, except at 70IRE where I got a deltaE of 3(still reasonable I am told). The measured contrast ratio was a bit lower at 2061 however ... still respectable imo.

Here are my settings:

Component Inputs / 81C / Cinema 1

Gamma High -2
Gamma Mid +1
Gamma Low 0

CR -3
CG -3
CB +3
BR -1
BG 00
BB +1

I then set the color/tint using GetGray. Finally I went to Avia and using the Red and Green Flashing color bars I used the Color Management feature in the AE900 to fix the hues in the green and blue (very minor adjustment was required).

It was quite late by the time I finished so I did not get to watch a movie after this, but the few minutes I did spend were gratifying. Colors were balanced and shadow detail appeared smoother than before. I will watch more over this weekend!

:)

So you don't require any measuring tools?

And as per the grey screen, the screen itself technically has no impact, unless you decide to run the bulb in high power mode to compensate for the decrease in brightness the gray screen might create.

David,

Search for one of the published settings in this thread at start there. You could also sift through the AE700 calibration threads as the 900 is not that dissimilar from the 700. These would be reference with further tweaks implemented with a calibration disc.

Since you are a low lumens sort, why not do as I suggested earlier and try and get hold of a LEE filters booklet - hundreds of filter samples that you could stick in front of your 900 to test. I get by quite fine with the 81 EF which *will* provide deeper blacks than the C.

You've a PM btw.

ted

Could someone please tell me if buying a screen will take away my bad vertical banding issue? I have horrible vertical banding going on, I'm shooting onto an off white colored wall right now.

oldschooljawa: Have you gone into the service mode and adjusted the panels?

If not, try it.

Go into "options" and on OSD (on screen display) hold down enter for 5 seconds. This will bring up the service mode. Go to panel adjust and adjust each individual panel (red, blue, and green) to minimize the vertical banding on each panel.

If that doesn't take care of the "horrible" vertical banding, then I suggest that you contact your dealer to get a replacement. You really should not have to live with it if it is so pronounced.

I am a bit new to the PJ thing so I have a few dumb questions.

If I set my Oppo to 720p do I need to set anything on the Panny side for scaling settings such as 720 or does the Panny do this on the fly. I am trying to use just the scaler in the Oppo.

I have also noticed that with my Oppo/Panny setup I have a small line across the bottom and the top of the image about 3/4 inch from the edge. Anyone else seen this?

Is there a calibration disc that is best for this setup?

Are there some obvious setting that someone could tell me to set while waiting to get a calibration CD? So far I have turned off overscan feature on the PJ and turned lamp output to low and using cinema 3 mode. Oppo is set to video 2 and just true life is on.

slateef, thanks for the tip. I'll try that out today and see if that will get rid of it.
Temple, I too have the thin black line on the top and bottom about 3/4 from the edge of the pic and I am also using an oppo. I wonder how we can get rid of that annyoying line???

Just set the Panny for HDMi input and the Oppo will do the rest. There are several disks including AVIA and DVI along with the new GET GREY disk (See calibration fourm). I like the GET GREY DISK for LCD projectors. If you are waiting for a calibration disk and have not received it yet try the THX setup on many disks including several Star Wars disks and Nemo.

I was just wanting to see if someone could give me some basic calibration numbers that they have used with there Panny/Oppo. Or point me to some listed on the forum.

Anyone have any idea on the question I had above about the line on the top and bottom of the image?

Do any of you 900 users project on to a sheet of Home Depot Melamine? That's what I use for my In-Focus DLP, but I am getting a 900 soon and was just curious if anyone uses this home made screen, and if so, what kind of image you are getting. I can deal with color and contrast issues for now. My main concern is hotspots, but I'm not seeing any with my current projector. I'll get an actual projection screen if I need to, but if my 90" melamine screen will work, chances are I can find something to spend that extra cash on.

Chris, I made a 94" screen from a Melamine board bought at Home Depot, I don't remember the manufacturer. It actually looks really good and provides good gain. It is brighter than the 1 gain samples I tried. No hotspotting at all. Not bad for $30. Damn heavy though .75" stock.

Moe

Ohhhh yeah, I know how heavy that stuff is. My screen is also the 3/4 inch stuff. The bolts holding that sucker up are massive. Are you projecting from the Panny 900? I have a 4805 right now and it works well for me with that PJ, so I'm hoping it will work well for the 900 as well. Thanks Moe.

Hello experts!

This is my first post on the forum, so go easy on me! I have been a reader for almost a year now and find the information on the forum to be quite valuable and helpful. Anyway, I have a situation I would like to get your help with.

I bought my AE900 about two months ago from an ebay dealer. The projector came factory sealed from Japan and it is a Japanese unit (with Japanese OSD, remote, etc.) After a couple of days of calibration, I noticed a convergence issue with it. I got in touch with a Panasonic engineer and he told me to make the focus as sharp as possible, center the lens, and look at the OSD letters to measure convergence visually. By putting up an AVIA convergence pattern on my Draper matte white screen, I see that the convergence is off by 1 pixel in the center of the image and by about 2 pixels closer to the edges of the image. I contacted Panasonic and Heartland about this issue and they do not support repairing this unit because it is a Japanese made unit.

The second issue I noticed is that the picture is somewhat dim in any setting (Cinema1 through Dynamic). Of course, Dynamic is the brightest, but I still feel that the picture is not as bright as it should be. I have a light controlled room so I know the issue is not my lighting situation. What I noticed also is that when I change the lamp power from low to high or vice versa, it makes very little noticeable difference in the brightness of the picture. This may be normal, but I don't have a way to measure it.

So, I have two questions:
1 - Do you have any suggestions on how to go about repairing my projector since no one in the USA seems to want to do it.
2 - Is there a way that I can measure that my projector lamp is putting out the full power that it should be.

Any help is greatly appreciated and I always enjoy reading your comments.

I did a search and didn't find any results. Is anyone here using an HTPC + ffdshow with their AE900? I just set up a system and I would like to compare notes with others to see what settings work best for them.

Thanks.

Lets try this again...

Can someone give me some basic calibration numbers that they have used with there Panny/Oppo or point me to some listed on the forum.

I have also noticed that with my Oppo/Panny setup I have a small line across the bottom and the top of the image about 3/4 inch from the edge. Anyone else seen this?

I did a search and didn't find any results. Is anyone here using an HTPC + ffdshow with their AE900? I just set up a system and I would like to compare notes with others to see what settings work best for them.

Thanks.


Drop me a PM and we can compare settings.

Drop me a PM and we can compare settings.


Will do when I get home tonight.

What are you using for a screen?

Will do when I get home tonight.

What are you using for a screen?

133" Dalite High Power

Well I just did a A/B with my Oppo against my Denon on this PJ and for some reason the Denon 2900 is coming out on top? The Denon has more detail and colors seems to have more pop. I have the settings on the Panny set the same for both inputs. How do I tell if the Denon is using the internal scaler on the Panny or not?

This is my second Oppo and the first one I had I tried this same test out on my 4805 with the same outcome. Starting to wonder if I am doing something wrong being that the Denon is a 480P. I would think that the Oppo with the upscaling would be better...

Any ideas if I am doing something wrong?

Well I just did a A/B with my Oppo against my Denon on this PJ and for some reason the Denon 2900 is coming out on top? The Denon has more detail and colors seems to have more pop. I have the settings on the Panny set the same for both inputs. How do I tell if the Denon is using the internal scaler on the Panny or not?

This is my second Oppo and the first one I had I tried this same test out on my 4805 with the same outcome. Starting to wonder if I am doing something wrong being that the Denon is a 480P. I would think that the Oppo with the upscaling would be better...

Any ideas if I am doing something wrong?

As long as you are feeding the pj a 720p source then the internal scaler is not being utilized.

You also mention that you are using the same settings for each player. Have you calibrated each input with with a calibration disc? If not, then it is quite possible the settings for each source should not be the same which might account for what you are seeing. Each source is different so your display should be calibrated independently for each device that is feeding it.

ted

I need to find a local calibration person to help me out with this. I have contacted someone off of the forum via a PM to see about getting some help. I am an audio guy and the video side of this is still pretty new to me...

What you say makes sense in terms of calibrating each display input to each source.

Thanks

I need to find a local calibration person to help me out with this. I have contacted someone off of the forum via a PM to see about getting some help. I am an audio guy and the video side of this is still pretty new to me...

What you say makes sense in terms of calibrating each display input to each source.

Thanks

I highly recommend you read the thread linked below. It will provide you with the insight you need. Also consult the Calibration forum as there are calibration discs beyond AVIA or DVE that you might consider.

Spend some time with this thread.
Go-to Guide for Source Options (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=494606)

I'm convinced you can do it yourself. ;)

ted

Hi Guys

I just got the AE900 with a S97 DVD player & the picture is just great after some tweaking with the help of you guys.
With the default colour modes of the AE900 I couldn't really get pure blacks & whites. Blacks appeared a darker shade of grey & whites were a very lighter shade of cream.
So I tried various settings in this thread & found that Eric's Original Settings without a filter 1/15/06 gives the best blacks, whites & all others. This is with the Cinema 2 setting in my S97.
A big thanx for Eric for the perfect settings. It really gave the pictures a more vibrant look than the muddy pictures before.

This is my first projector & I have no idea about the filters you guys talk about. Do they improve PQ much further?

Well I just did a A/B with my Oppo against my Denon on this PJ and for some reason the Denon 2900 is coming out on top? The Denon has more detail and colors seems to have more pop. I have the settings on the Panny set the same for both inputs. How do I tell if the Denon is using the internal scaler on the Panny or not?

This is my second Oppo and the first one I had I tried this same test out on my 4805 with the same outcome. Starting to wonder if I am doing something wrong being that the Denon is a 480P. I would think that the Oppo with the upscaling would be better...

Any ideas if I am doing something wrong?

You may have already answered this, but are you using the DVI input on the OPPO?

Yes...

kpothuwila, where can I find these "Eric's Original Settings"? I searched this thread and didn't find any posts with that info from 1/15/06

kpothuwila, where can I find these "Eric's Original Settings"? I searched this thread and didn't find any posts with that info from 1/15/06

The settings are on the first page of this thread.

Eric's Original Settings without a filter 1/15/06

Original settings from Eric Awtry with no filter. I will wait untill you post your latest settings before I place them on page one of the thread.

Normal Color Temp -4
Gamma
H0
M0
L+1

Contrast
R-4
G-4
B3

Bright
R0
G-2
B-1

133" Dalite High Power


I'm currently using Dazian CCC. I ordered new screen material which should arrive today so I've been avoiding the theatre until I can get the new material installed and calibrated. Once I've done that I'll shoot you a PM.

Thanks.

Ok, I was doing comaprisons on my panny by switching back and forth between the HD-D1 player and the oppo and now my picture looks like crap. I was just swapping out the hdmi cords while having the projector on. Could this have somehow messed up the panny's hdmi out because now the pic on dvd's looks like crap and way worse than before and I don't know how to fix it. Could the hdmi cord have suddently just went bad? Not sure what to think on this one.

The HDMI connector is poor at best. Try wiggling it around a bit, or a different cable. Pity it isn't as robust as the DMI cable it's suppose to replace.

I'm reading (slowly) through this entire thread, because I want to help my father calibrate his AE900 once he gets the room finished and everything mounted. I've done regular SD CRT calibration using Avia before, so I have that experience (as little as it is), and I'm finding this topic a great read - though I honestly find all the filter talk a little confusing.

In any case, as just a start I thought I would try some of the settings updated in the initial post, specifically the filterless settings that seem agreed upon by both Mike and CKL :

(Cinema 1, HDMI, Low Lamp)
Gamma -
High= 0
Mid= -1
Low= +2

Contrast -
Red= +1
Green= -5
Blue= +1

Bright -
Red= 0
Green= 0
Blue= -1


One question concerning using these. After setting these values in the advanced menu does one use Avia for the single slider contrast, brightness, color temp, etc. adjustments in the top-level "picture" menu or just leave those at center? Thanks guys.

Global brightness, contrast, color and tint are all adjusted with Avia or DVE first, then the advanced adjustments are done. You can go back and check brightness and contrast after that, but they should be fine. There is quite a variation in projectors, so I would also try Eric's settings with a new projector. Both mine and CKLs were using the first models released. Hope that helps. :)

Thanks Mike, I actually found the pertinent info after reading a few more pages into the topic. I'm thinking an 81EF may be useful in his application though, he's got a very light-controllable room (he just needs some appropriate shades for some glass doors, but those are the only source of ambient light in the room, and he's not projecting too terribly large 90" diagonal or something like that, so it might be worthwhile getting the 81EF to try and push the contrast higher.

Regarding the person with the problem with the line at the top and bottom of the screen. I had this at one point prior to doing all the tweaks on my oppo/Panny set up. It's gone now and I think it may have been a function of either 1) the output setting on the oppo (use 720P output) or 2) the fine adjustment to the projector (turn off the overscan and adjust flicker).

Also- I tried Sankars settings for the Cinema 1 setting with the 81C filter and they are not even a close comparison to Eric's for normal and the 81C- ERIC's setting are still the best with my oppo/Panny set up. I'm now into adding small tweaks to certain shade of some colors using the advanced menu. I've adjusted 3 shades of colors so far : the blue of the blue pill in the Matrix, the green that's very prevelent in the Matrix when they are in the matrix and the pink of - well, the Pink panther of course). These tweaks are nice to haves and provide a little punch to certain things which purists probably won't like, but I think it's cool and I don't overdo it- just a little umph . I watched King Kong most recently and I'm very, very pleased with the Panny/oppo/81 C in combo with Eric's setting in Normal mode. I haven't touched any setting for a couple weeks which is unusual for me, but shows how happy I am with the PQ.

Has anyone here used the Panny with an HD DVD or BluerRay player? I'm very curious if anyone has tested this out or thinks it's worth the expense at this point.

I have both the Tosh and Sammy. First I am not a big tweeker I just love Movies in the best environment I can afford. The toshiba H-D is awesome, and the sammy is good not as good. I believe there is some sonny software problems. I migh exhange for Sony in a few weeks. But there is a great difference and improvement , even though I thought this PJ was always great for the price. :)

I have the Toshiba H-D player with a panny 900. I am very happy with the player not only for hd dvds but for sd dvds. The toshiba is the best dvd player for regular dvds i have ever owned. I have owned more than a dozen players, including some very expensive ones that just did not look or sound as good as ther toshiba. It is not perfect but as far as picture and sound it is fantastic.
I have had no problems connecting it with hdmi to my panny 900.
Dan

Also- I tried Sankars settings for the Cinema 1 setting with the 81C filter and they are not even a close comparison to Eric's for normal and the 81C- ERIC's setting are still the best with my oppo/Panny set up.

Interesting ... at first I'd thought that Eric's settings with the 81C didn't look right in my setup since he is also (I think) using a Lumagen to adjust the picture as well as using a screen offset function for his Da-Lite HCCV (so the Panny settings are only half the story). What you are finding suggests that it could well be that the diffs betw the hdmi and component are greater than those introduced by ignoring the Lumagen.

I calibrated to my component input ... were you using hdmi when you tried my settings?

I calibrated to my component input ... were you using hdmi when you tried my settings?[/QUOTE]

Sankar- Your correct that I am using the HDMI input for the Oppo DVD player. I do use the component input for my Dishnetwork HD box. I will go back and try your settings for this input, but currently I use Eric's settings for this and it looks as good as the Oppo picture (better in fact when few a 1080i HD signal). I'll let you know.


All- Has anypone compared an HD-DVD or BR player's standard def DVD playback to that of the Oppo specifically? I'm curious if the 720P output of standard DVD can match the fast motion and waving flag test capabilities of the Oppo?

-Don

"Has anyone here used the Panny with an HD DVD or BluerRay player? I'm very curious if anyone has tested this out or thinks it's worth the expense at this point."

Yes, and it looks great.

Dave

I have the Toshiba HD1 and the HD picture is great. I use 1080i. The picture is better than
720p with this player. It is also a very good upscailing player. T

I have the ae900 PJ mounted 4' high on the back wall about 13' from the 106" screen, and I am sitting 12' from the screen. I have a GW, which I will return because I hate the dingy colors and sparklies. I ordered a GW2, which I should receive by tomorrow, but I doubt that I will be satisfied. I like the improvement in darks and light rejection, but not the dingy colors.

I got 12" samples from DaLite and hung them from the top of the screen for comparison. I am debating between the MW, HCMW, VS1.5 (maybe too sparkly) and the HP screen material. I like the bright colors and shadow details on the HP material, but it looks overall too bright to me. I have a lamp on a table next to me, which I use occasionally when eating dinner and watching TV, and it seems to wash out the HP material more than the others.

I finally calibrated my PJ with the GW screen with DVE, then looked at the samples and tried dialing down the brightness and contrast so the shades of white in the gray ramps don't wash each other out, but it still looks too bright and washed out. Will the Dynamic Iris on the ae900 tone down the whites on a full-sized screen, or is the HP a mistake. I don't want to have to wear sunglasses or pay another $45 for a filter. I don't want it TOO bright.

Maybe I should try the matte white again (or the HCMW, which you tweak-guys seem to like), now that I finally figured out how to calibrate my PJ, and improved the ambient lighting situation (except for that lamp). I tried an 84" MW screen before I did all that, but it looked washed out (watching Narnia, so maybe that wasn't a good example - all snow!). Maybe Narnia would be even worse on the HP!

Has anyone out there with an ae900 wall mounted PJ and an HP screen tried calibrating contrast and brightness using the gray ramps with DVE without a filter?

"it looks overall too bright to me."

It might look fine when the screen is full size.

In any event, too bright is a good problem to have; better to have to buy an ND filter and be able to remove it as the lamp ages, than to have to buy a new lamp to get the brightness you want.

"I have a lamp on a table next to me, which I use occasionally when eating dinner and watching TV, and it seems to wash out the HP material more than the others."

Having a light source where you are is the worst case for the HP because it's retroreflective. If you use a downfiring spot you'll be fine.

What picture mode are you using? If you're not using Cinema 1, you should try it for the best blacks and lowest output without a filter. Have you tried any of the settings (for no filter) in the first post?

I am using Cinema 1. It looks dingy with the Gray Wolf, but too bright (white crush) with the HP.

What kind of ND filter?

How do you adjust the gains for red, green and blue with DVE? I tried using the reversed gray ramps, but it seems to be hit & miss, not very accurate. I have not found a good explanation for this procedure.

Correction, I meant How do you adjust the GAMMAS (low, medium and high), and also the Color Temperature with DVE? I tried using the reversed gray ramps for the gammas, but it seems to be hit & miss, not very accurate. I have not found a good explanation for this procedure.

Which filter would be best to tone down an overly bright HP screen while correcting the colors and maximizing the contrast ratio on a March, 2006 build ae900?

What kind of ND filter?

ND2. It might work well with the HP screen. It cuts the light output too much for other screens.


How do you adjust the gains for red, green and blue with DVE? I tried using the reversed gray ramps, but it seems to be hit & miss, not very accurate. I have not found a good explanation for this procedure.

You need calibration equipment to adjust RGB contrast, brightness or gamma. Using the gray ramps is good for eyeballing any push in any of the primaries, but as you've mentioned, it's not very accurate. The settings on the first page were all done with calibration equipment, but they can vary quite a bit from one projector to the next. Sticking with Cinema 1 and making minimal adjustments to the advanced settings (and none to color temp) is your best bet.

Has anyone tried calibrating a newer ae900 (mine is March, 2006 build), or with the High Power screen, so I can plug in some numbers? Which settings are affected by the screen?

Look at Eric's settings dated 4-2-06 (the first one on the list). That should be your best bet. Different screens affect different settings, but the differences should be small. You're going to get more variation from one projector to the next than you will with a screen. I wouldn't worry about it.

hello
does the AE900 have a trigger 12v ? if not what can be done to control the screen via the AE900 ?

thank you

I tried Eric's settings, including the CCM settings, but it looked really muddy and the colors were way off. I calibrated using CCM and the color bars in DVE with the Red, Green and Blue filters, with much better results. I have a feeling the March 2006 build is quite a bit different from the Sept. 2005 build that Eric was using.

I just don't know how to calibrate the Gammas and RGB Contrast and Brightness without special equipment, so I used Eric's settings for those. Will adjusting the Gammas make the image darker (reducing white crush) with a bright screen without sacrificing shadow detail? Does anyone know how Dynamic Iris works (ie. will it close the iris with a bright screen vs. a gray screen)?

How can I know which filter to get, the ND2x or the 81C or the 81EF to achieve the correct color balance and contrast ratio while dimming the image just enough to not be blindingly bright, but not too dim? Hasn't anyone tried calibrating a March 2006 build ae900 with a white or HP screen?

My new PT-AE900U just arrived via FedEx. Yahoooo.... I sold my Z2 on eBay earlier this week. I suffered through 1 day without a PJ :( j/k

Mine is a May 2006 build (cool). I'll let you know how it calibrates quickly with my Oppo 971H (-0613 firmware) and Panny S97 (85E542 firmware). I don't have any filters yet.

My new PT-AE900U just arrived via FedEx. Yahoooo.... I sold my Z2 on eBay earlier this week. I suffered through 1 day without a PJ :( j/k

Mine is a May 2006 build (cool). I'll let you know how it calibrates quickly with my Oppo 971H (-0613 firmware) and Panny S97 (85E542 firmware). I don't have any filters yet.

Cool. What screen do you have? How will you mount the PJ (ceiling or table height)? Do you have all the fancy-schmancy calibration test equipment (meters and such) to check the 65K, CR, etc. Please let us know what your settings are and how it looks!

Will be tweaking this PJ with spyder2pro. Was wondering if anyone has any advice on if the software that comes with it is good enough to adjust all the advanced settings. Gama and others. Also have the 81C filter and the 81EF filter. Using a graywolf 106" screen.

P.S. I also have the getgray disc as well.

I have an inverted ceiling mount to a pure white/black border 100" screen painted on my home theater wall. The walls in my theater are dark grey. I don't have "all" the tools but have DVE/AVIA/HQV/Faroujda/WHQL test discs and a light meter.

Can anyone tell me how the luminance reduction compares between the 81C, 81EF and ND2 filters? How do you know which one will give the best CR and most accurate colors if the build is March, 2006, which appears to be different from the Sept, 2005 and other builds of the ae900. (Which colors need to be filtered?)

I got my ae900 rebate, too! It only took about two months!

I bought my projector early February and finally got my cash rebate. I had called after 8 weeks and they indicated that it was taking 14-18 weeks due to demand. Blockbuster cards are on back order so that is going to take another week. This projector is a gREAT deal with the rebate if you can hold out for a while to get the rebate.

Also, does anyone know if Panasonic is planning a 1080P LCD projector based on the same chip used in their 1080P LCD TVs? My 900AE picture is outstanding using normal mode, 81C filter and Mike's settings. I can't imagine how much better it could get with a 1080P panny + HD DVD or BR source, but I would certainly take a flyer on that set up.

Hi, I'm just looking to improve black levels. What's the best filter for that? Thanks!

Will be tweaking this PJ with spyder2pro. Was wondering if anyone has any advice on if the software that comes with it is good enough to adjust all the advanced settings. Gama and others. Also have the 81C filter and the 81EF filter. Using a graywolf 106" screen.

P.S. I also have the getgray disc as well.

I don't think an 81C or 81EF filter would look good with the Gray Wolf screen. It's already too dark for a filter. I have tried the GW1 and GW2, and sky scenes are dingy with both screens.

I, too am anxiously awaiting advice on filters. I have the ae900 and have the High Power screen on order. I am concerned that it may be too bright, and I may need a filter to tone it down (until the lamp ages and gets dimmer).

I have been advised to get an ND2 filter to tone down the brightness, or an 81C or 81EF filter for color correction as well as reducing brightness. I have found no local stores who carry any of these filters who will give a refund for a return if I don't like how it looks, so if I get a filter, I am stuck with it. I have to order online, and they are $45-$52 each plus shipping.

I would really appreciate if anyone can advise as to what filter would be best for a March, 2006 build ae900. I don't think this build has the same calibration as the older builds. I don't have any fancy calibration equipment, just DVE.

How can I tell by my calibration numbers (by the CCM values that gave me the best looking green and red colors, after calibrating color and tint with the blue filter, using DVE) which filter would be appropriate? If an 81C or 81EF filter increases reds and decreases blues, will it make my sky scenes look dirty? Would an 81EF overcompensate the colors? Should I post my numbers?

Hi, I was just wondering if by using the vertical shift of the projector´s menu the image quality would be negatively affected. Any answer would be appreciated.

i just got my ae900 and out of the box i plugged in my good ole xbox using s-video cables.

i projected maybe a ~50" shot and i was playing through some games and notice overall it was not bright enough, i.e. Forza Motorsports on some shaded track areas.

I projected it on just a plain ole regular wall, is a high gain screen a must with a projector?

How much light do you lose with the 81c filter on the ae900/I like using normal gamma.And posssible dynamic with the filter.Thanks for any help.tvevil try the dynamic setting to see if that helps.A HP screen does help.I use a Carada BW and it rocks,BUDDA

Don't use the 81C with Dynamic. See page one of thread. You do not loose much light.

A Greyhawk screen will help and it is very low in cost.

How much light do you lose with the 81c filter on the ae900/I like using normal gamma.And posssible dynamic with the filter.Thanks for any help.tvevil try the dynamic setting to see if that helps.A HP screen does help.I use a Carada BW and it rocks,BUDDA

(I assume you are referring to PICTURE settings and not IRIS - disregard the following if you are referring to IRIS, though that affects gamma as well ). "Dynamic Mode" and "normal" gamma are contradictory. Dynamic gets its over-the-top "punch" because of its abstracted gamma curve.

A search of this thread should hilight that fact.

ted

Any good settings for an AE9000, projecting on a BOC screen with a Opp971 over HDMI? 100% light controlled room.

Global brightness, contrast, color and tint are all adjusted with Avia or DVE first, then the advanced adjustments are done. You can go back and check brightness and contrast after that, but they should be fine. There is quite a variation in projectors, so I would also try Eric's settings with a new projector. Both mine and CKLs were using the first models released. Hope that helps. :)

Going back to this post by MikeSRC really quick. I understand how brightness and contrast wouldn't need to be redone, but I'm surpised that color and tint would not need to be readjusted. Why is making all of these RGB contrast, gamma, etc. changes not effecting the color and tint values - maybe I just don't understand exactly what is happening with regards to the mechanics.

Any good settings for an AE9000, projecting on a BOC screen with a Opp971 over HDMI? 100% light controlled room.

The settings are going to be affected more by the variation between projectors than your screen type or DVD player. FWIW, my settings were using an Oppo 971 onto a matte white screen (like BOC), but you may find that settings for newer units work better.

Why is making all of these RGB contrast, gamma, etc. changes not effecting the color and tint values

Color and Tint affects saturation and hue (same as the CCM functions) whereas the RGB settings are affecting color temperature. Two different things.

Hi, I was just wondering if by using the vertical shift of the projector´s menu the image quality would be negatively affected. Any answer would be appreciated.

You should check the regular AE900 thread for more on this, but the short answer is that extreme use of lens shift causes convergence issues. You should keep the projector's height within the top and bottm limits of your screen.

"Color and Tint affects saturation and hue (same as the CCM functions) whereas the RGB settings are affecting color temperature. Two different things."

How different can they be when all are determined by the amounts of R/G/B?

Isn't hue related to color temp- redder a lower color temp, and greener higher?

Thanks

"Color and Tint affects saturation and hue (same as the CCM functions) whereas the RGB settings are affecting color temperature. Two different things."

How different can they be when all are determined by the amounts of R/G/B?

Isn't hue related to color temp- redder a lower color temp, and greener higher?

Thanks

Yes Noah, but TINT and COLOUR are like master gain levels affecting all three channels. With Studio camera lineup a camera control operator sets his RGB biases and gains first by switching out the processing that is involved with TINT and CHROMA. In an analog situation TINT sets the colour timing in relation to BURST which provides the colour reference signal and CHROMA of course sets the overall saturation level. In pure digital systems quite often these are not used. This is why you frequently do not see these controls on DVI transports.

ted

Yes Noah, but TINT and COLOUR are like master gain levels affecting all three channels.

If that's the case wouldn't you still want to at least check tint and colour after doing the RGB changes? Any good web sites that have info on this? I find the grayscale stuff easy enough to understand (how it's seperate from color information in the signal), but I'm having a harder time seeing how alot of this stuff doesn't interact.

Hi, I was just wondering if by using the vertical shift of the projector´s menu the image quality would be negatively affected. Any answer would be appreciated.

Just for clarification, I beleive you are referring to the menu setting of vertical shift, not the lens shift joystick postion, right? I don't think you would want to mess too much with vertical and horizontal shifts in the menu.

I just made minor changes (1-2 points) so the DVE pattern used to measure overscan was centered. It just moves the projected image around a bit, not the lens. Minor changes probably wouldn't cause much noticeable distortion. Major changes in lens shift will.

Don't use the 81C with Dynamic. See page one of thread. You do not loose much light.

A Greyhawk screen will help and it is very low in cost.

So you are saying the 81C filter won't dim the image much? How much would you say - ballpark, 25%? 20%?

What about the 81EF filter? Does it dim the image as much as an ND2 filter (50%)?

I don't have the exach numbers of dimming with each filter. They are posted somewhere in the thread. I have a 106 inch screen at I have no problem with the 81C it may be about 10% or less with that filter. It is more with the 81Ef even though you do get better contrast. The best bet is to by 67mm filters which are lower in price and get an inexpensive step up ring to 77mm. A word of caution. You really should consider using calibration to use the filters since there is variation in each machine and in the time that the machine was made. See page one of thread.

If that's the case wouldn't you still want to at least check tint and colour after doing the RGB changes? Any good web sites that have info on this? I find the grayscale stuff easy enough to understand (how it's seperate from color information in the signal), but I'm having a harder time seeing how alot of this stuff doesn't interact.

Now I've done it, what I posted is simplistic at best or more likely misinformation in the sense it was taken.

RGB should be viewed as working at the grey scale level with the attempt being made to *null* all traces of colour at a given white point. White being subjective as our perception of "white" can change due to context. A colour temperature of about 6500 K (referred to as D65) has been chosen as display reference. Black is ideally without colour and should be balanced at, again ideally, its bias point; i.e. the point at which the individual amplifier turns on and begins to operate in a linear manner. So overall with RGB calibration we are calibrating as though it were luminance.The attempt being to eliminate any individual colour emphasis such that it displays as true grey Each individual grey level should be uniform, and should exhibit the correct level per its stimulus throughout its range. In other words midrange should not show a greater reaction to its defined stimulus than the bright or low-level range.

In ANALOGUE systems this information is turned over to the COLOUR circuits which using the RGB settings as reference, adds colour information to the display. You could for example turn COLOUR all the way down and the RGB settings would remain the same. So the COLOUR control sets the amount or saturation of the colour. If you change your greyscale, saturation is unlikely to change in any appreciable manner unless you are changing all three primaries a major amount. At the least COLOUR shouldn't require no more than a touch up and likely no change at all.

From Wikepedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tint_control) TINT is defined as a control that allows the image to be adjusted between a green and a violet tint, with the correct hue lying somewhere in between. and HUE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hue) refers to the gradation of color within the visible spectrum, or optical spectrum, of light. "Hue" may also refer to a particular color within this spectrum, as defined by its dominant wavelength, or the central tendency of its combined wavelengths.

In TV we view this information on a Vectorscope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vectorscope) which presents Colour as though it were a Colour Wheel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ColourShading.png), except the ordering is counter to the way it appears on the colour wheel but the relationships are the same. So the HUE (TINT) control allows us to phase (to a specific reference point) or "rotate" the colour angles such that they conform to their designated (ideal) positions. With a display we are taking this same information and conforming it such that the display is transparent to the source.

Now if we go back to the base RGB settings and say lower Blue, this will not affect the overall rotational position of the colours but would lower the Blue out of the box that it should appear on the Vectorscope. So again the lower level, greyscale information should not affect the TINT setting as the position (timing) of the other two should remain.

So TINT and COLOUR are master level controls in that they affect the overall spectrum but not in the sense that they alter the lower level settings and the greyscale (RGB) should not impart overall changes to those controls as they utilise those RGB settings as reference. The interaction is there but it is subtle unless large changes are made at the RGB level.

The above is for Analogue systems. Ideally Digital should not require such controls, but I believe we will see the gradual introduction of these controls working in the digital domain as no two displays are alike and sometimes higher level controls are what is needed to make these differences conform to the underlying RGB data.

Now that I've confused you with the mess that is in my head let me say that I'm not an engineer or calibrator, though I've held a lot of meters for photo/video and lighting work over the years. In TV production it is less important to know the "why" than it is the "how" to obtain results. My understanding is experiential not scholarly, vicarious not always first hand, so likely has more holes than a sieve. My expertise is not colour but pushing buttons, which monkeys can do.

I cannot hold a meter to the knowledge that Mike and the other colour specialists and display engineers on these forums hold. They swim in these waters I stick my toes in perhaps where I shouldn't.

I do hope that any of the links that I've provided are in some way useful and apologize for any confusion I've dealt anyone.

Coupla' books which can be helpful though perhaps to detailed:

http://www.poynton.com/notes/DVAI/index.html
http://www.campusi.com/isbn_0750678224.htm

Poynton is considered a Industry reference on these matters. Doing a search on GOOGLE with his name will turn up many links that you could pursue.
Kieth Jack is member kjack here on AVS.

ted

I don't have the exach numbers of dimming with each filter. They are posted somewhere in the thread. I have a 106 inch screen at I have no problem with the 81C it may be about 10% or less with that filter. It is more with the 81Ef even though you do get better contrast. The best bet is to by 67mm filters which are lower in price and get an inexpensive step up ring to 77mm. A word of caution. You really should consider using calibration to use the filters since there is variation in each machine and in the time that the machine was made. See page one of thread.

I only have DVE for calibration. That's why I have been asking if anyone with a newer build than Sept, 2005 with calibration equipment has tried to calibriate the ae900.

I have read most of this thread. I have spent the last month printing many of these threads (on the ae900, various screens, and the upscaling DVD players) and reading them every day. I just don't recall seeing the information on how much the 81EF filter will dim the image. I tried a search, but was unsuccessful.

Would a 67mm filter affect the projected image, since it is smaller?

I would page one of this thread. Eric had a machine with a newer build than Sept 2005. I don't know the exact percentage that the 81ef will dim the image. It should still be fine with a GreyWolf screen as has been reported. If you have a very large screen the 81EF will not work well. You must have a light controled room as you probably know. The 67mm will not affect the image. It will work fine. I got the idea to save money from Mike SRC.

The 67mm filters cost much less and you might what to try both 81ef and 81c. Don't forget to get a step up ring.

I would page one of this thread. Eric had a machine with a newer build than Sept 2005. I don't know the exact percentage that the 81ef will dim the image. It should still be fine with a GreyWolf screen as has been reported. If you have a very large screen the 81EF will not work well. You must have a light controled room as you probably know. The 67mm will not affect the image. It will work fine. I got the idea to save money from Mike SRC.

The 67mm filters cost much less and you might what to try both 81ef and 81c. Don't forget to get a step up ring.

I wouldn't dream of using the 81EF with the GW screen (too dark already). I am replacing my GW2 with a HP screen, which is a lot brighter and may need to be toned down. I have an 106" screen with a 4' high (11 feet from the screen) PJ mount, and I am only sitting 9-10 feet from the screen.

I will look at 67mm filter pricing.

Eric was testing the Sept 2005 build. Check page 1 again!

I just received the Panny AE900U yesterday. Looking forward to reading these tweaks. Wow over 1000 posts! Anyone in the Central Florida area that has calibration equipment and wants to help me initiate this bad boy for a 6 pack and some movies?

Which color filter should I get? I'm leaning toward the HP screen.

Also, I can lower my external light environment to 99.5% darkness.

I just received the Panny AE900U yesterday. Looking forward to reading these tweaks. Wow over 1000 posts! Anyone in the Central Florida area that has calibration equipment and wants to help me initiate this bad boy for a 6 pack and some movies?

Which color filter should I get? I'm leaning toward the HP screen.

Also, I can lower my external light environment to 99.5% darkness.

I have been asking the exact same question for several weeks! I am still uncertain whether the 81EF filter will be dark enough, or if I will need an ND2 fitler. Someone suggested a 67mm filter and step up adapter to save money (77mm filters are $50 online, and none of the local camera shops that allow returns have either of those filters). I still need to check pricing on that option. I should be getting my HP by Friday, so hopefully, I will see how bright it is this weekend.

What is your ae900 build date? How high will you be mounting it?

Oh, yeah, it was rwestley who suggested the 67mm filter!

Well, the 67mm filter is a bit cheaper with the step down ring if I get an ND2, but it is about the same TOTAL price if I get the 81EF filter (51). Someone on Ebay has the adapter ring, but most of the online stores are out of stock (ten bucks - adorama and B&H). I need to call local stores still.

Also, I can lower my external light environment to 99.5% darkness.

No equipment LED's in your room then? Its amazing the havoc they can wreak with your black levels. :D

...annoying little ol' me,
ted

No equipment LED's in your room then? Its amazing the havoc they can wreak with your black levels. :D

...annoying little ol' me,
ted

Just cover it with paper, and then tape over the paper with black electrical tape
Make sure to change it every few months so the glue doesn't permanently stick to the equipment.

Yeah, the screen itself will light up the walls and ceiling quite a bit, too! Pretty hard to get 99.5% darkness in real life (bat cave)! You'd have to paint everything in the room matte black!

Actually, the ND2 filter in 67mm is only about 10 bucks cheaper than the 77mm filter (as is the 81EF - which is a bit more than the ND2), so the smaller filters would only save a few bucks if I need more than one filter. The only way that would save me is if I found a local store that accepted returns and had the 67mm filters in stock. Not too many camera shops carry bigger filters, and most don't allow returns on filters. Bummer!

Most of the testers did not feel that the ND2 filter will work well with the AE900. For all the newcomers I would suggest reading page one of the thread. There are links on page one which might help. I would also suggest again that without calibration equipment one can not get perfect results. I would suggest that one starts with the 81ef if you want to experiment with filters. Be sure you use your calibration disk first. I am using an 81C even though I loose a little contrast because there is very little light loss with that filter. One should also experiment with the different settings on page one not using a filter. The results might surprise you. Since each unit is different you will have to experiment.

Just cover it with paper, and then tape over the paper with black electrical tape
Make sure to change it every few months so the glue doesn't permanently stick to the equipment.

I must say its a pleasure to have you aboard.
You fit perfectly well with the rest of we FP obsessives. ;)

I don't sweat the glue though. Every HT denizen should have his very own bottle of 99.9% Isopropyl in his stash.

ted

Most of the testers did not feel that the ND2 filter will work well with the AE900.

Seconded.
If lumens are overwhelming why not gain the extra ON/OFF at the same time?

ted

Most of the testers did not feel that the ND2 filter will work well with the AE900. For all the newcomers I would suggest reading page one of the thread. There are links on page one which might help. I would also suggest again that without calibration equipment one can not get perfect results. I would suggest that one starts with the 81ef if you want to experiment with filters. Be sure you use your calibration disk first. I am using an 81C even though I loose a little contrast because there is very little light loss with that filter. One should also experiment with the different settings on page one not using a filter. The results might surprise you. Since each unit is different you will have to experiment.

I have DVE, and have spent many hours recalibrating for three DVD players (two upconverting) with Component and HDMI inputs to see which player/input I like better with 4:3 and 16:9 DVDs.

I was told to try an ND2 filter by someone else in the threads (the HP thread?), to dim the image if the HP screen is too bright. If the 81EF filter does the job of dimming, while at the same time correcting the color, then that would be better. But, so far, no one has posted calibrations for the newer 2006 build ae900s.

I have experimented with different settings from page 1, but was not satisfied with the results. I used the Red/Green/Blue filter and the DVE color bars to eyeball the colors while tweaking the RGB contrast, brightness and tint in the CCM page of the ae900 to get the red and green colors to match closer (after adjusting color and tint for the blue). Some of the greens still look too yellow, no matter what I do.

But, DVE will not tell you if the fine grayscale color calibrations are correct. I have no idea how to set the Gamma, Contrast and Brightness without the light meters, etc. other than trying other peoples settings and seeing what looks best to my poor, aching eyes. I just want to finish tweaking and watch some movies!

T




You should check the regular AE900 thread for more on this, but the short answer is that extreme use of lens shift causes convergence issues. You should keep the projector's height within the top and bottm limits of your screen.


Sorry for chiming in here but I am struggling with this very issue -

I have my pj mounted (inverted) 72" off the floor and 12' from the screen, trying to shoot an 85" wide image (16:9) but I still have to use all the available lens shift in order to get the image "square" enough to not need keystone adjustment. Problem is, the image is curved along the bottom. I am trying to position the screen top at around 80" off the floor in accordance with the 1/3 rule (people sitting on the sofa).
What am I doing wrong?
The ceiling mount is on a vaulted slope so if I go to ceiling height (8') I will have to move in to 10' from the screen - tried that but produced worse results. I could go lower which would move the pj back to apprx 13' from the screen and could be as low as 60" off the floor. But should that be necessary? According to PC's calculator I should be able to throw a 85" wide image from as little as 10.3 ft.

Confused? :?

Why is the lens shift affecting your keystone? It's not supposed to be doing that is it? I notice slight keystone in mine on the right hand side (the right side slopes inward as you move up), which has me a tad bit concerned, but the mounting isn't permanent yet and I've never been really careful of getting the projector square to the wall yet, the screen may also not be completely flat in that corner. If it were an issue with the projector not being perpendicular to the wall though I'd expect both sides to exhibit the same slope, which is why I suspect the screen right now. hopefully it's not the projector.

In any case I wouldn't think the lens shift should affect the keystoning at all, I thought people were only reporting issues concerning the LCD panel convergence in association with the lens shift.

What is your ae900 build date? How high will you be mounting it?

Mine says June 2006
The height will be just above sitting level. Since the HP is retroreflective or whatever.
Anyone in the central fl area that wants to help me play with this little monster?

Sorry for chiming in here but I am struggling with this very issue -

I have my pj mounted (inverted) 72" off the floor and 12' from the screen, trying to shoot an 85" wide image (16:9) but I still have to use all the available lens shift in order to get the image "square" enough to not need keystone adjustment. Problem is, the image is curved along the bottom. I am trying to position the screen top at around 80" off the floor in accordance with the 1/3 rule (people sitting on the sofa).
What am I doing wrong?
The ceiling mount is on a vaulted slope so if I go to ceiling height (8') I will have to move in to 10' from the screen - tried that but produced worse results. I could go lower which would move the pj back to apprx 13' from the screen and could be as low as 60" off the floor. But should that be necessary? According to PC's calculator I should be able to throw a 85" wide image from as little as 10.3 ft.

Confused? :?

The bowing you are seeing is a common side effect when lens shift is set at it's extreme, in addition to amplifying any misconvergence in the projector. You are not doing anything "wrong."

Moving the projector closer increases the angle of incidence and makes the problem worse, as you have observed. Moving the projector back will help with the bowing slightly, but the best remedy is to keep the lens within the borders of the viewing surface. Given the width of your image, you may find that you have to mount the projector even lower to prevent all noticeable bowing, otherwise you may have to learn to live with it to some degree.

I have my PJ mounted at 12' from the 106" screen and 4' high, and the lens is only about 16" from the center of the screen. Even with keystoning, I get a horizontal tilt that I can't get rid of. There's about a 1-2" difference between the left and right side image height. Is that normal when the PJ is slightly off-center?

The bowing you are seeing is a common side effect when lens shift is set at it's extreme, in addition to amplifying any misconvergence in the projector. You are not doing anything "wrong."

Moving the projector closer increases the angle of incidence and makes the problem worse, as you have observed. Moving the projector back will help with the bowing slightly, but the best remedy is to keep the lens within the borders of the viewing surface. Given the width of your image, you may find that you have to mount the projector even lower to prevent all noticeable bowing, otherwise you may have to learn to live with it to some degree.

Thanks! That's a relief, thought I was loosing my mind. If you don't mind I am still slightly confused about the lens being within the veiwing surface, with the pj mounted at 72" from the floor and the top of the image at 80" from the floor I thought I was keeping the lens inside the vertcle plain. Sorry to be so noob :confused:

Thanks! That's a relief, thought I was loosing my mind. If you don't mind I am still slightly confused about the lens being within the veiwing surface, with the pj mounted at 72" from the floor and the top of the image at 80" from the floor I thought I was keeping the lens inside the vertcle plain. Sorry to be so noob :confused:

Sorry, I kept looking back at your post, but I concluded that if you were using maximum lens shift, but were otherwise getting a 'squared' image, then the projector must be mounted above the viewing surface.

Since that it not the case, you are in fact doing something wrong. The bowing is a result of using extreme lens shift, no question about that. But, why are you using max shift if you are well within the boundaries of the viewing surface? The only answer can be that your projector isn't level, and you are shifting the image to compensate. However, that should result in a geometry problems. You would have an image at the right height for your screen, but it should be a trapezoid. Could it be that you simply do not see that the top of the image is wider because it spills over on the border and is absorbed?

Have you verified that the projector is level, and not tilted upward? It woudn't take much. Just 1/2" of tilt at the projector would make a pretty big difference by the time the image hits the screen. That can also mean the difference between using max shift and say 2/3.

Here's the layout of the room.

The projector will be projecting onto a wall 13' wide by 8' high.
The projector will have a 12' throw
The projector will be 60" off the ground.
The projector will be 2 feet to the right of center. (Looking at the PJ)

Hoping to acquire a DaLite High Power Screen.

Thoughts on screen size?

I'm coming from a 140" picture previously with my CRT

Thoughts on screen size?

I'm coming from a 140" picture previously with my CRT

Most are still using the 1.5 screen widths recommended for front row seating with digital pjs.

But I bet you will be able to sit at least 1.2 as the Panasonic does a pretty fair job of hiding SDE.

What was your seating ratio with your CRT?

ted

Most are still using the 1.5 screen widths recommended for front row seating with digital pjs.

But I bet you will be able to sit at least 1.2 as the Panasonic does a pretty fair job of hiding SDE.

What was your seating ratio with your CRT?

ted

15 Feet Viewing Distance / 11.7 Feet Screen = 1.28

It was beautiful indeed!

Sorry, I kept looking back at your post, but I concluded that if you were using maximum lens shift, but were otherwise getting a 'squared' image, then the projector must be mounted above the viewing surface.

Since that it not the case, you are in fact doing something wrong. The bowing is a result of using extreme lens shift, no question about that. But, why are you using max shift if you are well within the boundaries of the viewing surface? The only answer can be that your projector isn't level, and you are shifting the image to compensate. However, that should result in a geometry problems. You would have an image at the right height for your screen, but it should be a trapezoid. Could it be that you simply do not see that the top of the image is wider because it spills over on the border and is absorbed?

Have you verified that the projector is level, and not tilted upward? It woudn't take much. Just 1/2" of tilt at the projector would make a pretty big difference by the time the image hits the screen. That can also mean the difference between using max shift and say 2/3.


Thanks again bubbawillly.

I got out the level and rechecked the pj - perfect in both directions, so I got out the tape measure and checked rotation (distance from the rear of the pj to the wall), it was within 1/32".
So since I am projecting on a blank wall I raised the top of the image to 96" which puts the lens shift almost center. The pj is mounted 73" to center of lens. Still the bottom of the image is bowed, on an 85" wide image I am measuring appox 3/8' of height difference between the outermost corners and the center bottom. Is this normal? Bad pj? Am I missing something? I also notice that if I zoom out and make the image smaller I can still see some bow, just not as pronounced.
Thanks again for all the help :)

Thanks again bubbawillly.

I got out the level and rechecked the pj - perfect in both directions, so I got out the tape measure and checked rotation (distance from the rear of the pj to the wall), it was within 1/32".
So since I am projecting on a blank wall I raised the top of the image to 96" which puts the lens shift almost center. The pj is mounted 73" to center of lens. Still the bottom of the image is bowed, on an 85" wide image I am measuring appox 3/8' of height difference between the outermost corners and the center bottom. Is this normal? Bad pj? Am I missing something? I also notice that if I zoom out and make the image smaller I can still see some bow, just not as pronounced.
Thanks again for all the help :)

If you are using it short throw with a large screen that can also introduce geometry errors. Lens quality in this price range is not the best.

ted

If you are using it short throw with a large screen that can also introduce geometry errors. Lens quality in this price range is not the best.

ted


Hmmm... I guess that could be the problem. Tonight I was able to measure the distance more accurately. From the front of the lens to the screen (wall) along the light path is 11'-1 1/8". Looking at PC's calculator, with an 85" wide screen I am using apprx 1.77 zoom factor.

Too bad.. I really like the 900 :( Unfortunately the bow in the image with this setup is glaring :eek:

Any recommendations on a pj w/ a shorter throw? HD72? Z2000?

Hmmm... I guess that could be the problem. Tonight I was able to measure the distance more accurately. From the front of the lens to the screen (wall) along the light path is 11'-1 1/8". Looking at PC's calculator, with an 85" wide screen I am using apprx 1.77 zoom factor.

Too bad.. I really like the 900 :( Unfortunately the bow in the image with this setup is glaring :eek:

Any recommendations on a pj w/ a shorter throw? HD72? Z2000?

I'm not sure that the lens quality will be that much improved unless you are willing to venture into higher priced territory. At these short throw distances you are utilizing a greater portion of the glass - centre is best where there is less curvature. To correct this a lens requires more elements hence the additional cost. I would certainly view any short throw unit under similar conditions if possible before proceeding.

You might consider masking if you are unable to increase your throw. The geometry will be unnoticeable for all but specific source. My throw is about 13 ft for a 96 inch wide 16:9 image and have about a 3/8 inch curve at screen centre. I project Constant Height 2.35 at 120 inches - pincushion is common in this situation - about an inch top and bottom when the anamorphic lens is in place over the 10 ft width, but masking solves it well enough for my needs. It is a tradeoff for the image size I desire.

ted

15 Feet Viewing Distance / 11.7 Feet Screen = 1.28

It was beautiful indeed!

Ah, now I claimed such light control and your careful handling of LED's. ;)
I would definitely give CRT a try if I had the space.
Do try no to be to let down, digital *will* surpass CRT someday.

ted

Ah, now I claimed such light control and your careful handling of LED's. ;)
I would definitely give CRT a try if I had the space.
Do try no to be to let down, digital *will* surpass CRT someday.

ted

I haven't given up hope!
I'll use this PJ in the bedroom when I get the 1080p PJ at the end of the year.

So everyone, I've received mixed answers on which filter to use.

I don't understand why you guys all say you can't use the CCM calibration to tweak the colors so the Green and Red DVE patterns look more uniform with the filter. Sure, you only get a small colored box to look at as you make changes, but if you click OK, the bigger box changes color.

So, I just tweaked settings up or down a few notches, and clicked OK and saw how it looked (better or worse). I spent quite some time doing this by trial and error with Color, Tint and Brightness for each color box that looked off, and ended up with much better red and green uniformity with the DVE filters and color bars. I just can't seem to get the excess yellow out of the green. Is that because I don't have a filter? Would the 81EF help?

Has anyone tried this? Is there a reason this wouldn't work?

The 81 filter has almost no effect on color saturation or hue (ie: no effect on the CCM settings), so it wouldn't help with green leaning toward yellow. The CCM saturation settings can be used to remove the yellow from green, but typically the AE900 is oversaturated in green and has to be dialed down towards yellow. Take a look at Eric's CCM settings here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7420850&&#post7420850). If for some reason your 900 is leaning toward yellow, increasing the green "Color" settings in the CCM should help.

The 81 or CC filters are used to compensate for the projector bulb's natural deficiency of red, especially noticeable when using the Normal or Dynamic settings. By decreasing blue and green output (with the 81 filter), you're able to keep green and blue levels normal (or closer to it) while increasing red. After greyscale calibration, this results in an improvement in CR. Generally (except for some small shifts toward orangey reds with the 81EF), they do not affect color saturation or hue.

The 81 filter has almost no effect on color saturation or hue (ie: no effect on the CCM settings), so it wouldn't help with green leaning toward yellow. The CCM saturation settings can be used to remove the yellow from green, but typically the AE900 is oversaturated in green and has to be dialed down towards yellow. Take a look at Eric's CCM settings here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7420850&&#post7420850). If for some reason your 900 is leaning toward yellow, increasing the green "Color" settings in the CCM should help.

Thanks for the response, Mike. I tried increasing the green color, but it just made it look more saturated, not less yellow. It just doesn't quite match the background color with the DVE plastic filter. I will try playing with different settings from page 1 AGAIN, and see if I can get it to match better. WTF, I'll try them all! Why not!

The 81 or CC filters are used to compensate for the projector bulb's natural deficiency of red, especially noticeable when using the Normal or Dynamic settings. By decreasing blue and green output (with the 81 filter), you're able to keep green and blue levels normal (or closer to it) while increasing red. After greyscale calibration, this results in an improvement in CR. Generally (except for some small shifts toward orangey reds with the 81EF), they do not affect color saturation or hue.

Are all model builds of the ae900 deficient in red? Some moreso than others (according to Eric's first post on 4/2/06)? Is there a way to determine without the expensive color meter, by calibrating the colors in CCM by eye, and looking at certain numbers?

Do you think the CC40R filter might give better results in MY case than the 81EF, since I might want to reduce the lumens to compensate for the higher brightness of the High Power screen (since others in the HP screen thread recommend closing the iris to eliminate "white crush," which is not possible with the ae900's auto-iris)? I notice you tried it in January in Dynamic mode. What were your color temp and CR measurements with that setup?

Hi guys, I have about 500 hours on my 900u and decided it's time to recalibrate it (I don't have/use any filters). When I first calibrated the PJ when it arrived I had a contrast setting of +2 or 3 and a brightness setting of -1. I just recalibrated it with Avia and my contrast setting is at +18 and brightness at -8. I think that's a bit extreme of a change in 500 hours. I have a 103" DaLite HP screen and I have not noticed anything going wrong with the PJ (I'm just a bit paranoid).

Are +18 contrast and -8 brightness settings normal in cinema1 mode?!?!

I recalibrated mine a month later after my initial calibration and all my settings changed significantly too. I am also using Avia. Of course I warm the thing for at least 2 hrs before doing any calibration and calibrated it in dim lights, just when I am watching a movie. As a result, I have been hesitant to invest in the expensive calibrator especially if it goes through this much change

Well, I did get my 106" HP screen! I spent a couple of hours re-tweaking it for the DVD (HDMI) with DVE, and then for the HDTV (comp.) by eye. Then I popped in Sin City and the Aviator and re-tweaked some more. I set up the MOXI HDTV similar to the DVD settings.

I had to really tone down the contrast to prevent white crush, even after setting lamp to Low. I set Contrast around -24 with brightness 4-5. I set the color to -10 to -11, and color temp to -4. I think I will need a filter to improve the black levels. With such drastic contrast settings, where bright scenes tend to wash out the dark parts, I will probably go with the 81EF.

Normal mode seems to give me the best contrast ratio, but it still could use better blacks. It does wash out a bit with my 3-way touch table lamp on low, and pretty bad on higher settings, but the lamp is between the recliners just below the PJ height, so it is right in the middle of the HP's viewing cone. I tried a floor-standing lamp, but it didn't help and shone right in my eyes. I tied a big scarf around the shade to keep it from shining right on the screen, which helps a lot. I move the scarf around to adjust where the light is shining. It works pretty well. Plus, the back wall has a brown Tapa cloth from tonga to reduce reflections from the lamp.

I like the texture of the HP a lot better than the Gray Wolf (1 & 2), but the black and white levels are still a bit bright for DVD movies. Robotz looked great on HDTV, though. I am going to re-record Shark Tale on HDTV to see how it looks. Should be nice!

Where do you get the CC40R and 81EF gel 3 or 4 inch square drop in filters for cheap? The 4" adapters are $20 at B&H (almost double for 3-4" adapters), but all the square filters are very $$$ (over a hundred)!

I ordered my B&W 81EF here: http://www.adorama.com/BW7781EF.html?searchinfo=81ef&item_no=34

They seem to have a good selection of filters there.

I ordered my B&W 81EF here: http://www.adorama.com/BW7781EF.html?searchinfo=81ef&item_no=34

They seem to have a good selection of filters there.

Thanks, CPCAT. I did look at adorama for screw-on filters, but I didn't know they also carried Cokin drop-in square filters.

The lamp IS on low, of course. I had to drop the contrast (white setting) down so low (-24!), I am losing the punch of the picture (in most movies). It is fine for animated movies and Discovery HD. Deadwood on HBO-HD is so dark, maybe the 81EF filter will be too much (lose too much detail in dark scenes - and Deadwood is almost all dark scenes), but it should improve the black level. We'll see. The blacks have a blue/green glow that is annoying.

I ordered an 81EF Cokin filter (square) with a 77mm adapter ring and multi-filter P filter holder from adorama for $14 less than the threaded 77mm filters, and additional filter glass is only about $20 each shipped. This way, I can change or add filters without unscrewing it (just drop it into the holder), and I think they are glass (not gel or plastic, which can fade with heat).

I can get addional adapter rings for my camcorders, and they have a huge selection of filters (but no CC40R - ie Red - only Magenta).

I can't wait to try it! I will post my impressions once I get it and tweak the PJ again!

I got my CC40R filter from Harrison and Harrison. You can either get them here (http://www.chamblesscineequip.com/catalog/filters.htm) or call them at 559-782-0121

I got my CC40R filter from Harrison and Harrison. You can either get them here (http://www.chamblesscineequip.com/catalog/filters.htm) or call them at 559-782-0121

Thanks for the info, Mike!
Ouch! Those are pricey! I hope I like the 81 type.

Do you know what the size of the P type Cokin filters are?
Are they 3" square? I don't see the size on adorama or Cokin's web sites.

I got a 67 mm screw-in for $41.85, then used a $7 adapter ring (Ebay) to get to the 77mm size of the AE900.

Give them a call about the P type filters. They're up near Bakersfield.

Oh, boy! The box from Adorama just showed up! Tweaking and testing new filter tonight...

Does anyone have a Panny 900 with a build date of January 06? This is my 3rd unit and it's WAY different than my last one with a September build date. The contrast level seems MUCH higher with the blacks going way deeper. None of the posted tweaks work well with it for me. Keeps crushing the blacks in all my sources. I really can't believe the difference. The blacks are like DLP blacks.

Elio

I asked this question in the regular 900U thread and no one answered it, probably because most of the people that know the most about this PJ are here. I was wondering what the response time is for the LCD panels. Anyone know this? I've noticed with fast moving credits that the image "stutters" and there is ghosting in some fast action scenes that I would like to get rid of.

Does anyone have a Panny 900 with a build date of January 06? This is my 3rd unit and it's WAY different than my last one with a September build date. The contrast level seems MUCH higher with the blacks going way deeper. None of the posted tweaks work well with it for me. Keeps crushing the blacks in all my sources. I really can't believe the difference. The blacks are like DLP blacks.

Elio

Mine is July 06 but I don't really have any basis to make a comparison.

I'm still playing around with settings and an 81EF filter.

Mine is July 06 but I don't really have any basis to make a comparison.

I'm still playing around with settings and an 81EF filter.

It's weird since all 3 machines have had very different black levels. The first was the worst but had no VB. The second one was better but the whites tended to bloom a bit no matter where I set the gamma or contrast. This one is amazing but has a small amount of VB. I can live with the VB with these black levels. I can't imagine using a filter on this one.

E

Mine is April, 2006, if I recall correctly. I wish I had the cal equipment to adjust my PJ. It doesn't seem to fit with what the others are posting in this thread. The 81EF seems to be adding a bit too much yellow.

Maybe I will try the Cokin 81C (pretty cheap). The CC40R (red) filter might look better, but they are just too expensive (the Cokin P filter is around 3 1/4" square, which is an odd size, and Cokin does not carry CC40R's).

The 81EF does seem to improve the contrast, but I see different results with different sources (MOXI over component Discovery HD looks great, but SD still looks pretty sick. Faces look fine in DVE, but movies can vary a lot.

I keep seeing too much green, and a tinge of yellow in faces sometimes. I think the blacks look better, though - darker and less blue in the blacks. I am going to tweak more this weekend, and maybe order an 81C???

Mine is April, 2006, if I recall correctly. I wish I had the cal equipment to adjust my PJ. It doesn't seem to fit with what the others are posting in this thread. The 81EF seems to be adding a bit too much yellow.

Maybe I will try the Cokin 81C (pretty cheap). The CC40R (red) filter might look better, but they are just too expensive (the Cokin P filter is around 3 1/4" square, which is an odd size, and Cokin does not carry CC40R's).

The 81EF does seem to improve the contrast, but I see different results with different sources (MOXI over component Discovery HD looks great, but SD still looks pretty sick. Faces look fine in DVE, but movies can vary a lot.

I keep seeing too much green, and a tinge of yellow in faces sometimes. I think the blacks look better, though - darker and less blue in the blacks. I am going to tweak more this weekend, and maybe order an 81C???

I just tried the 81c and why it made better blacks it made the whites a littel to yellow for me.So their is a catch22 with filter's IMHO.budda

Maybe some ae900's have more yellow than others, or the screen emphasized the yellow (I didn't notice it with the GrayWolf2, but I do with the High Power).

Has anyone tried the 85A? It seems to be more red, less yellow. I wish Cokin sold CC40R filters, not just Majenta. Check out page 10 of the Cokin brochure:
http://www.cokin.co.uk/pdf/NewCOKINBrochure.pdf

Of course without cal equipment, it gets pretty frustrating trying to tweak by eye. After a while, everything starts to look yellow or green, including my house! I think my eyes are getting burned out!

The 81EF does seem to improve the contrast, but I see different results with different sources (MOXI over component Discovery HD looks great, but SD still looks pretty sick. Faces look fine in DVE, but movies can vary a lot.


Be aware that there are enough differences in the colour space between HD (rec 709) and SD (rec . 601) content pertaining to the way the individual primaries are weighted. HD will emphasize GR somewhat compared to SD if your balance is for SD content.

As to movies - colour choice, saturation levels, lighting et al are DOP/Director determined right to the choice of film stock with respect to artistic intent. Added to that a DVD may be poorly mastered. Hence the need for reference sources such as DVE and/or AVIA which is what you should trust.

ted

Hi Ted,

I hear what you are saying, but what if you calibrate with DVE, but most movies look off somehow (with much variablility)? I mean, what's the difference if DVE looks great, but most other sources don't. I end up re-tweaking to get rid of excess green and yellow in parts of faces. With so much variability in the ae900 PJs, and variability in how a screen affects the image (ex: GW2 vs HP looks quite different), how can you tweak successfully without buying expensive cal equipment?

And how do you calibrate HDTV with no reference other than what programming is on TV?

I am tempted to try the CC30M or CC40M Cokin filters now! I am going to try different modes with the 81EF this weekend to see if I get better results.

This may not be the technically correct thing to do, but I end up setting saturation and hue via AVIA then desaturating from there slightly to my taste to get comfortable flesh tones to my eye. I guess I just prefer things a little undersaturated. This could also get back to the differences in HD/SD colorspaces as tvted mentioned.

Cpcat, I think we are on the same page!

I think I remember seeing something posted on this earlier, but I can't seem to find information on it now. It appears my Panny has the vertical banding issue. It is noticeable on either a completely white or completely black display. It is annoying when a light scene pans side to side - you can see the image "roll over" these bands. My question is: can this be adjusted by the end user or does it have to be repaired by a technician?

I can get to the flicker adjust menus, but I don't know what to do from there. Is this were an adjustment would correct the banding issue? If so, how do I go about doing so?

Any help would be appreciated! Thanks much.

Flicker settings are adjusted from the secret menu (Power, Cancel, up, down, up, down, enter). RGB Flicker displays a full red, green, or blue field to make flicker adjustments easier to do.

This is what I gleaned from this forum. I have not tried it.

I think I remember seeing something posted on this earlier, but I can't seem to find information on it now. It appears my Panny has the vertical banding issue. It is noticeable on either a completely white or completely black display. It is annoying when a light scene pans side to side - you can see the image "roll over" these bands. My question is: can this be adjusted by the end user or does it have to be repaired by a technician?

I can get to the flicker adjust menus, but I don't know what to do from there. Is this were an adjustment would correct the banding issue? If so, how do I go about doing so?

Any help would be appreciated! Thanks much.

The filcker adjust is not the one you want to use for vertical banding. It's the panel adjust. Menu>Options>OSD (hold enter button on OSD for a few seconds and the hidden menu will come up) Select panel adjust. Up and Down arrows wil cycle through red, blue and green panels. Adjust with <> arrows. Look at the pattern on the screen and adjust full up and down to see the banding and where it goes away. It takes a bit of practice to see the banding on the pattern but once you see it you'll SEE it. Adjust for each color.

Elio

Hi Ted,

I hear what you are saying, but what if you calibrate with DVE, but most movies look off somehow (with much variablility)? I mean, what's the difference if DVE looks great, but most other sources don't. I end up re-tweaking to get rid of excess green and yellow in parts of faces.

Are you doing your tweaks at the greyscale (RGB) level or the TINT/COLOR level? Yellow/Grn issues could be dealt with at the TINT level.

At the greyscale level its nigh impossible to get the accuracy by eye that you can achieve with equipment, particularly given the variability between different units that you've mentioned. Ideally greyscale should be left alone or only revisited as the equipment ages or new elements are introduced into the chain. Since DVE or AVIA patterns are reference test signals then you would assume WYSIWYG and any discrepancies are source related.

I am like cpcat though - I tend not to like oversaturated colour, so using the COLOR control I reduce the level without touching RGB. VERONICA MARS has become my test signal at this point. :eek: I love the look of the show and understand the creative desire for deep hues with almost abstracted intensity, but I still had to back off the saturation level which suits me fine for most of the viewing I do.

The calibration equipment I have (SMART III) is too slow to work with to visit greyscale regularly so it is likely I shouldn't be commenting on calibration. My day job is quite demanding with respect to such issues but I try not to take my job home with me.

With the art movements of the late 19th through 20th century blasting apart the bonds that the natural world held over our perceptions, who says that a face shouldn't be green? The Matrix per the Director's intent had a green cast. I trust what I see with the calibration discs and then accept (mostly) what is presented to me.

Quite honestly, I have no taste.

ted

My Panny is Jan '06.. None of the setting listed here (without a filter) work will on it.

My Panny is Jan '06.. None of the setting listed here (without a filter) work will on it.

Sly,

Are you finding the blacks kinda crushed on your unit? Mine is Jan 06 as well and when I watch dark films, like the UK pressing of The Descent, I really have to bump up the brightness.

Elio

I turn my color down to -11 or less, and sometimes down to -16, depending on the source. I change the settings for practically everything I watch becasue it doesn't look right. I have tried Normal and Cinema1 modes. I have tried EVERY setting in this thread without and with the 81EF filter. I have tried CCM adjustments to make the green and red colors match with the DVE color patterns better. My issue is not with greyscale (I don't think). It's with color of faces, and a green tinge around colored objects. My blacks are pretty crushed too, even with the filter.

The 81EF filter helped a bit with reducing the blue tint in blacks and improving the contrast ratio, but there is still too much green and yellow in skintones of most sources. I serously doubt that every program is supposed to look green, like the Matrix. I never noticed the excess yellow with the graywolf screens, only with the High Power screen.

CPCAT has a very similar setup (HP screen and a newer ae900 with the 81EF filter) and also compained about green push from the 81EF filter, which he tweaked out with a lumagen scaler (see his review - post 5416- of the ae900 official thread).

That's why I wanted to try the Cokin CC40M filter, to reduce the green more (is that correct?). Cokin does not make CC40R filters (and no one else has the right size - ~3 1/4" square - to fit in the Cokin P holder), so CC40M is the closest I could find in their catalog. I can get more Cokin filters real cheap, whereas screw-on CC40R filters are real pricey.

Here's the review from the main 900 thread:

I've had this for a couple of weeks now and thought I would give some impressions. Bought form projectorpeople and everything went fine. The screen lagged behind so initially I just set it up projecting onto a king-sized bedsheet hanging over my entertainment center. My throw is 20 ft from a buffet type table in the back of the room at 5 ft. off the floor. This a few inches above the center of the screen. My image is 110" diagonal.

First impressions were excellent even with the bedsheet. Blacks were very deep and colors seemed fine. No noticeable VB or softness that I could see. No SDE from my viewing position at 15 feet.
Ambient light obviously would wash everything out though. I used Cinema 1 and set it up with AVIA. A 50ft HDMI cable from monoprice (the thicker one) seemed to work fine both hooked to my D* STB and to the Toshiba A1. Also tried it via my Lumagen VisionHDP video processor (set at 720p, 1:1 mapping confirmed). I felt the picture was fine either with or without the vp and couldn't really see much difference.

Next up the DaLite 110 inch diag. high power screen. Installation took a little ingenuity and fiddling (see pics). I used the wall mounts from DaLite. As you'd expect everything jumped in brightness considerably. The screen is retroreflective so works best projecting as close to your viewing angle as possible, i.e., just clearing my big head. Within the 60 degree viewing cone it is BRIGHT even in Cinema 1 and lamp low. Brightness drops considerably out of the cone though. Very watchable even with some dim ambient light within the cone. Disadvantages include picture noise is much more visible and blacks are elevated. I'd say they were still about as dark as my NEC plasma though at this point so still acceptable. Noise was a little distracting especially with the D* sat feed. Mostly what I was seeing was mosquito noise around faces and visible background dithering. I put the Lumagen VP back in and things were much improved. This also allows me to switch between the Sat feed and the Toshiba A1 which is an added plus. I still see what I think is akin to the "silk screen effect" with pans against light backgrounds. I believe this is a compromise in getting the added brightness from the HP screen.

Finally comes the 81EF filter. I got it from adorama (B&W, 77mm, threads into the Panny's lens). Blacks are now deep again even with the HP screen. Subjectively, I think they are on par with those I had with the bedsheet. Watched War of the Worlds on HBO-HD and was really impressed. I'm using normal mode, low lamp and it still seems very bright within the cone. Can still easily watch with some low ambient lighting especially within the cone. If I need to I can go to Dynamic (still with low lamp) for some added punch or if I need added brightness for mulitple person viewing. I've settled on using MikeSRC's latest advanced menu settings (for normal mode using the 81EF, see the first page of this thread), then adjusted the basic settings again through AVIA.

One thing about the 81EF filter is it seems to result in green push. The AVIA color decoder check suggests about +20 percent green. I corrected this by dialing down COLORGREEN in my Lumagen's adjustment menu by -35. This brought all the colors to zero and seems to provide a very pleasing picture. I would hope the same is possible through the Panny's color management menu but I've yet to figure out how to do it there.

Overall, very pleased with my first front projection experience

Thanks CPCAT for copying your review to this forum. That's the one I was referring to. Please tell me, what build date is your ae900?

July 06.