AE900 Tweak thread. [Text View]

Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6

rwestley

10-08-05, 01:10 PM

I have started this thread as a place where tweaks can be posted for this projector. The thread has gotten very long fast so I will try to include several of the tweaks on this first page. I want to thank MikeSRC, CKL and others for doing the tests with and without filters and posting their results. For those who want to try the settings I suggest that you try Mike's & CKL's settings first. They both have calibration equipment. For those who want much more information I would suggest reading through the thread.

The tweaks and settings below should only be used as a reference. There are many factors that determine the proper settings, including the lamp, the screen, the video source, and the DVD player that is being used. As CKL has pointed out, "The same settings will incur different color temp." To get the best possible picture calibration should be done on each individual projector..

For an excellent overview of display calibration check Chris Wiggles' thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=494606

If you are new to calibration and you have either the AVIA or DVE disk you might want to look at Ram Electronics quick calibration guide at the link below. Scroll down on the page to see the quick guide for each player. I would suggest that you use a calibration disk for the basic settings before trying the other tweaks.

http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/Video-calibration.html

Full instruction guide for DVE

http://www.videoessentials.com/docs/DVE_Consumer_NTSC.pdf

If you have a DVE or AVIA disk and have lost the filters that came with the disks or have borrowed the disk. Extra filters are available from the following sources.

http://www.videoessentials.com/extra_filters.php

http://www.thx.com/mod/products/dvd/dvd.html

Iggyman(Diane) has provided a Excel spreadsheet with some of the most popular settings. You can download from my site and save under name Richard.[/B]

http://www.travelexperienceclub.com/download.htm

Thanks Diane, I hope this helps with tweaking.

Eric's advice for calibration

The issue here is that your brightness and contrast settings effect how you grayscale tracks. If you set contrast and brightness properly before calibration, then the PJ is calibrated properly, you should not change them at all after calibration and should not need to.

Eric's latest settings without a filter 4/2/06

Okay guys. I had enough time to calibrate the AE900 in Cinema 1 Mode without a filter today. I am very proud of the results although I think the numbers are a bit different from my last PJ. Remember, this one is a Sept 2005 build date and showed more of a red bias than the others. My final calibration yielded a color temp of 6617 from 0-100 IRE with a Delta Error of 1.1. Thats pretty strong stuff considering that from 30-90 it is tracking very close to a perfect 6480K. The On/Off contrast measure an oustanding 2042:1. Now my meter is probably not the best for this but I used the same technics I always have to get to my number so all the variables are the same. Gamma tracked at 2.25. Okay, now for some numbers

Contrast -3
Bright +3
Color -2
Tint 0
Sharp -2
Color Temp 0

Gamma
H -1
M -1
L +1

Constrast
R 0
G -4
B +2

Bright
R -1
G 0
B -2

Now for some more interesting numbers. I used CCM to set up a nearly perfect SMPTE CIE chart. The colors are oversaturated so most are reduced. I used a 1.3 gain white screen for reference so this will work for many users. I adjusted only 5 points consisting of Red, Green, Cyan, Magenta and Yellow. You can adjust blue with overall saturation (Color in the PJs Menu).

CCM Numbers
Point 1 Red Color -15 Tint 0 Bright 0
Point 2 Green Color -18 Tint 0 Bright 0
Point 3 Cyan Color -20 Tint 0 Bright 0
Point 4 Magenta Color -16 Tint -2 Bright 0
Point 5 Yellow Color -18 Tint -4 Bright 0

Try these out and see what you think.

EDIT>>>
I changed my Gamma Low setting to +1. The gamma on the AE900 measures better and more uniformly at +5 but the image becomes more washed out. This brings up another point. I think Panny has the Gamma controls reversed on this PJ. It seems as if my other 900 had Gamma values in the -3 to -5 range instead of the + range.

Mike´s settings with 81C 2-21-06

Okay, finally got some time to try the 81C filter. I think it may be the best compromise. Blacks may not look quite as depp as with the 81EF, but the CR is actually inproved and gamma looks slightly more stable as well. Here are some settings for the 81C filter, Normal mode, Low lamp. Try them and put up a grey ramp. If it looks too red on your AE900, dial back the Red Contrast a few notches. Note that these settings are close to the 81EF, but Blue and Green Contrast have to be dialed back a little more.

Gamma
High: 3
Med: 4
Low: 6

Contrast
R: 0
G: -12
B: -7

Bright
R: -3
G: 0
B: -3

__________________
Enjoy!

Mike
Surf Audio Video
Surf Remote Control
4805/H31/MT700 Comparison Thread
AE900 Tweak Thread
Report Post

Settings from Eric Awtry (AwtryAV89) with 81EF filter 1/29/2006

81EF Settings

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay guys, here are the settings I came up with using the 81EF. I had to end up using Normal Mode and -2 Color Temp. Dynamic color balnce can be gotten close but the Gamma is just not controllable. I am finding the Gamma settings more critical to my eye. These settings I am posting are without the use of my Lumagen scaler. I am keeping that out of the loop because I know most do not have one. I was able to achieve fairly flat grayscale and nearly perfect gamma traking. Try these and see what you think.

81EF Filter
Normal Mode
Color Temp -2
Contrast +12
Brightness -2

Gamma
High 0
Mid -6
Low -4

Contrast
R +2
G -4
B +12

Bright
R -4
G 0
B -2

On/Off contrast came in a little lower than with the C filter. The low end came in a bit darker than the C filter but the high end was a bit dimmer. I personally think the C Filter is a better match. So, for the lowest and darkest blacks, the EF may be better. I certainly know the EF would be the best if I could get Dynamic tamed a bit better.

BTW, I may be selling this PJ soon. Anyone interested?
Attached Images PreCalColorNormalEF.jpg (86.3 KB, 4 views)
PreCalGammaNormalEF.jpg (92.4 KB, 3 views)

__________________
Eric Awtry
Dream Theater Consulting
HT Consulting and Design
AV Equipment and Services
GA, AL, TN, SC

New Settings from Eric Awtry (AwtryAV89) 1/28/06 No filter

Here are the settings for Cinema 1 without a filter. These are using a Da-Lite HCCV screen offset in the Progressive Labs software so they may not work for everyone.

Cinema1 Mode
Color Temp 0
Contrast +6
Brightness -6

Gamma
High +1
Mid -3
Low -5

Contrast
R 0
G 0
B +4

Bright
R -2
G 0
B +1

I also might mention, I did not use the Lumagen scaler to add additional tweaks. This was close enough with the projector I did not feel I needed it.

These are low lamp settings and resulted in a Lumen output of 343. On/Off Contrast was only 1583:1.

__________________
Eric Awtry
Dream Theater Consulting
HT Consulting and Design
AV Equipment and Services
GA, AL, TN, SC

Eric's Settings with 81C filter and Lumagen scaler to add additional tweaks. 1/28/06

Okay, here are my settings but please understand they are not perfect without the Lumagen. Also I use a screen offset function for my Da-Lite HCCV which calculates that into the equation.

81C Filter
Normal Mode
Color Temp -4
Contrast +20
Brightness 0

Gamma
High +1
Mid 0
Low -3

Contrast
R -8
G -10
B +4

Bright
R -9
G -4
B -7

With my set up, this give me fairly close to 6500K in the 40,50,60,70 IRE range. Above that at 80,90 and 100 you should have too much green and way too little red. Moving green lower though will throw you off a bunch in the mid IREs as well as adding red will kill your mid IREs. The low end will be fairly close with a large red spike at 30 and too much blue at 20 and 10. Green should be pretty close but any movement of red or blue either way throws thing much further out of balance.

You can try it and see what you think. I will be interested in any comments.

__________________
Eric Awtry
Dream Theater Consulting
HT Consulting and Design
AV Equipment and Services
GA, AL, TN, SC
Report Post

Eric's Original Settings without a filter 1/15/06

Original settings from Eric Awtry with no filter. I will wait untill you post your latest settings before I place them on page one of the thread.

Normal Color Temp -4
Gamma
H0
M0
L+1

Contrast
R-4
G-4
B3

Bright
R0
G-2
B-1
Report Post

Mike's latest settings with cc40R Filter 1/17/06

Well, I've finally had the chance to work with the CC40R filter. The best setting to use with it is Dynamic. Normal doesn't work anywhere near as well and is best with the 81EF. I've need to spend more time with it to decide which I like better (CC40R or 81EF), but I've got to say it looks pretty nice. For those who are interested, here are some settings for use with the CC40R filter, Low lamp and Dynamic:

Gamma

High= -2
Med= 1
Low= 4

Contrast

R= -1
G= 5
B= -3

Bright

R= -2
G=1
B= -2

__________________
Enjoy!

Mike
Surf Audio Video
Surf Remote Control
4805/H31/MT700 Comparison Thread
AE900 Tweak Thread

Mike's settings with no Filter 12/27/05

For those with no filter, here are some calibrated settings for the Normal mode to try:

Low Lamp, Color Temp = -4

Gamma -
High= 0
Mid= 1
Low= 3

Contrast -
Red= 0
Green= -8
Blue= -8

Bright -
Red= 0
Green= 2
Blue= -1

__________________
Enjoy!

Mike
Surf Audio Video
Surf Remote Control
4805/H31/MT700 Comparison Thread
AE900 Tweak Thread

Mike's latest settings from normal mode with the 81EF filter 12/19/2005

Well, just so you all have something to play with until I get my CC40R filter , here are some new settings for Normal with the 81EF filter that I like a little better than the original ones. It's a little brighter for those who want a brighter picture, but blacks aren't quite as deep. Gamma is better controlled, as is color temp and RGB %s. As always, set global brightness and contrast first, then check it again after you change the settings.

Gamma
High: 3
Med: 2
Low: 5

Contrast
R: -1
G: -7
B: -2

Bright
R: -1
G: 1
B: -3

__________________
Enjoy!

Mike
Surf Audio Video
Surf Remote Control
4805/H31/MT700 Comparison Thread
AE900 Tweak Thread

[B]MIke SRC latest settings using 81EF filter & Dynamic mode 12/12/2005

I did get higher On/Off CR with the 81EF filter and the High lamp setting than with the Low lamp. I posted it here.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6554127&&#post6554127

I have some results using the 81EF filter with the Dynamic setting, low lamp, color temp 0. Got better color balance this time around, with the exception of a greater dropoff in red at 90 and 100 IRE than without a filter. You can see that dropoff in CKL's graphs as well. Also, gamma was much better controlled than with my settings for Normal. I might still play around with those some more though. The lumen output is the same as with the Normal setting. If you're looking for greater brightness, I'm afraid you'll have to stick with the A+B or C filters. BTW, using the A+B filters only resulted in a 15% increase in output. Haven't done any CR tests yet. Here are the settings I ended up at:

Gamma
High: 2
Med: -1
Low: 5

Contrast
R: -10
G: -15
B: -11

Bright
R: -6
G: -8
B: -13

__________________
Enjoy!

Mike
Surf Audio Video
Surf Remote Control
4805/H31/MT700 Comparison Thread
AE900 Tweak Thread
Report Post

MikeSRC's settings for the 81Ef filter Normal mode
Here are some settings with the 81EF filter and AE900 in Normal mode, color temp at 0 and low lamp. Readings taken from the projector, so they should work with most screens that do not alter the color balance:

Gamma
High: 0
Med: 0
Low: 5

Contrast
R: -4
G: -9
B: -6

Bright
R: 1
G: 2
B: -2

I also tried Dynamic, starting with CKL's settings and had to adjust the Cont and Bright RGBs a few notches. The problem is that I couldn't bring gamma under acceptible control and the output wasn't much different from Normal. With Normal, gamma tracking was still not as controlled as I'd like, but acceptible. Overall, I think CKL's 81C filter provides the best compromise of warming effect and not too much reduction of lumen output. While the 81EF's light output is enough for use with a positive gain screen or in completely controlled light conditions, it's reduced from the Cinema 1 setting, which is too dark for some

MikeSRC's settings without filters

I've fine tuned my settings for Cinema 1, which is the closest to having accurate greyscale right out of the box. This was using OpticOne software and probe, along with Avia Pro. These may differ slightly from projector to projector, but they should give you something to try.

Calibrated settings for the HDMI input, Cinema 1:

Gamma -
High= 0
Mid= -1
Low= 2

Contrast -
Red= 1
Green= -5
Blue= 1

Bright -
Red= 0
Green= 0
Blue= -1

In addition, I've been using the CCM function to fine tune red and green, which are oversaturated right out of the box. I'm still working on those, but once I get them done I'll post them. You'll need to use the color fields from a disk like Avia to set the target color. Again, this may vary from one unit to another, so it's just something to try.

__________________
Enjoy!

Mike
Surf Audio Video
Surf Remote Control
4805/H31/MT700 Comparison Thread

CKL's Review of the AE900 with and without filters

http://www.avbuzz.com/audio-video/200510/ae900-ckl/index.htm

AE900 Tweak Thread [/COLOR] Jasons's tweak link (You must write him for the settings

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=607546

Brad Bissell's Settings for the AE700 with the 81EF filter.

I posted these settings as a possible starting tweak point for the AE900[/CENTER

I wonder how Brad Bissell's settings for the AE700 would work on the 900. He used the 81ef filter.

Many people have been waiting for my calibration, using Smart III, with the B&W KR6 81EF filter. Well, here it is. The following settings work with my AE700, but yours might be different, so use these only as a starting point.

Mode: Video
Lamp: High

Gamma High: 0
Gamma Mid: 0
Gamma Low: 0
Contrast R: 0
Contrast G: +5
Contrast B: +4
Bright R: -2
Bright G: -2
Bright B: -1

This produces an exact color temperature of 6500K across all IRE levels from 20-100. Below 20 it gets a bit cooler but that is as good as it gets with the calibration. You can reduce this by eye and lower the Blue Bright setting by one or two steps to remove the slight blue black.

After all of this I bet you are wondering what the contrast level is... Well, it is an amazing 2273:1

So it seems that the B&W KR6 81EF is the filter Cine4home.de used to calibrate the AE700.

I hope everyone finds this useful, and I strongly suggest the purchase of Smart III. Steve deserves a lot of credit for his calibration software and I don't want to take away sales with this info."

CKl's settings without filters.

(Cinema 1, HDMI, Low Lamp)
Gamma -
High= 0
Mid= -1
Low= +2

Contrast -
Red= +1
Green= -5
Blue= +1

Bright -
Red= 0
Green= 0
Blue= -1

CKL's settings (Cinema 1, High Lamp)

Gamma -
High = 0
Mid = 0
Low = 0

Contrast -
Red = -9
Green = -5
Blue = -3

Red = +2
Green = -5
Blue = -4

[CKL's Settings using Dynamic and a 81A & 81B 77mm filter
CKL's settings (Dynamic + filters, High Lamp)
Gamma -
High = +2
Mid = -1
Low = +3

Contrast -
Red = -2
Green = -11
Blue = -5

Red = -3
Green = -1
Blue = -8

DenisT's results using no filter and the Smart III
About 40 hours on lamp
Warm up about 1 hour prior to testing
Panasonic AE 900
Lamp Low
Picture Normal
Contrast 4
Brightness 1
Colour -7
Tint 1
Sharpness -4
Colour Temp -3
Dynamc Iris on
Noise Reduction on
Gamma High 0
Gamma Mid -3
Gamma Low 0
Contrast Red 3
Contrast Green 1
Contrast Blue -1
Bightness Red 0
Brightness Green 0
Brightness Blue 0

Panasonic S77 DVD
Picture Mode User
Contrast 0
Brightness 0
Sharpness -7
Color 0
Gamma 0
Depth Enhancer 0
MPEG DNR 0
3DNR 0
Video Output 720p
Transfer Mode Auto 2
HDMI Colour Space YCbCr 444

Smart III Results
Red Contrast Ratio 1387
Green Contrast Ratio 1629
Blue Contrast Ratio 976
Combined Contrast Ratio 1427
Calculated Gamma 2.16 Range 1.9 to 2.3
Target Gamma 2.2
Color Temperature About 6500 (range 6250 - 6750 at IRE 10 to 100)
Lumens 579
Lux IRE 100 173
Lux IRE 0 0.07
Contrast IRE 100/IRE 0 2471 [/LEFT]

CostasEAR settings with the B+W 81EF

Just upgraded from 700 to 900 and i keep on using the same good old filter, 81EF. (B&W KR6 77mm).The 900 panny is sure a step forwards, in all aspects, but really i was not shocked by the difference...

Well, i keep on reading from you that this filter is too dark.
But this should be your target! This projector is not the best in blacks, and if you really want to have deep black levels you have to cut the light over there!
And after all there is enough light even for big screens!

The black level is what really matters in cinema!

My other equipment is:

DVD player: OPPO (HDMI to HDMI cable with HDMI-DVI adapter).
Screen Da-lite 92' hi-contrast matt white.

my settings:

oppo (all other defaults):
-brightness -2 (helps hiding the macrovision effect and less calibrating from the panny)
-CSS off
-noise reduction off

panny (all other defaults):
picture dynamic, lamp low
contrast +2
colour temp -1 (some might like better -2)
NR off
GH +1
GM 0
GL +6 (some might like better +7)
CR 0
CG -6
CB 0
BR -3
BG 0
BB -4

With these settings i have the best contrast and the more light from all other fine settings i read in here.
Try them and let me know your opinion.

I suppose we can have better than 4500:1 contrast ratio (i even wish better than 5500:1), but i am still looking for the settings...
Report Post

I will try to update this post when new settings become available.
Hope this helps make a great projector even better. Rwestley

darinp2

10-08-05, 02:17 PM

Not much tweaking yet, but I ordered a filter from www.bhphotovideo.com that can be found by searching for 65073766 there. This is what many people were using on the AE700. The multi-coated one wasn't in stock and I've heard that 2filter.com has basically this same filter, but I'm not sure if it is the multi-coated one or not. I should have this filter by the middle of next week.

--Darin

rwestley

10-08-05, 03:44 PM

I had the lower priced filter and it was fine when I had my 700. I used Brad Bissell's settings which he got using Smart III. I made a few changes and the picture was very good. He was able to get very close to 6500K with his settings. This filter should be work fine. The link for the lower priced filter is below.
I don't feel you need the more expensive one with special scratch proof glass since there will be no rough handeling of the filter on the projector.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?ci=1&sb=ps&pn=1&sq=desc&InitialSearch=yes&O=SearchBar&A=search&Q=*&bhs=t&shs=65073766&image.x=7&image.y=4

Scott B

10-08-05, 03:54 PM

Darin,
Are you choosing the filter that you feel would be most appropriate for the Normal mode?

rwestley

10-08-05, 04:18 PM

This was the filter that was used on the normal mode on the 700.

JimmyR

10-08-05, 04:34 PM

Opening the 900's case.

You HAVE to remove the lens shift knob to open the case. This was done on the 700 by first removing the rubber insert and then turning the inside screw CLOCKWISE to remove the knob. (don't "counter" clock turn or the screw will break off)

Panosonic has changed the rubber insert to plastic on the len's shift knob. Anyone figure out how to get this plastic "cap" piece off without dinging it up ?

rboster

10-08-05, 04:37 PM

JimmyR

10-08-05, 04:49 PM

Filter,
I'm going to try an "FL-Day" filter (or piece of one).
There just may be enough room to mount it inside between the "paddle" iris and the DMD block.

MikeSRC

10-08-05, 05:18 PM

Based on the RGB %s I've recorded on the AE900 (see the list on the main thread), it looks to me like the 81EF or FL-D filters would be best used with the "Video" or "Dynamic" modes, where you're getting a higher blue level. With "Normal", Blue and Green levels are equal, so a CC30R filter looks just about right. I have an FL-D and CC20R filter I'm going to try later today.

Zipplemeyer

10-08-05, 07:20 PM

To get max contrast out of the 700 while using a filter high lamp mode had to be used. Will it be the same with the 900 or can we expect to see filter benefits while still viewing in low lamp?

Moe

darinp2

10-08-05, 08:19 PM

Darin,
Are you choosing the filter that you feel would be most appropriate for the Normal mode?
I've never seen any actual percentages for how far that filter drops blue and green, so I'm just going by what people used before and hoping it will get things close. Then I'll try to see what works best from there, but I'm thinking of maybe trying Video mode first and seeing how things measure out.

--Darin

rwestley

10-08-05, 11:53 PM

B+H has two filters there is the more expensive mult resistant filter which is out of stock and the cheaper one which is available. They are both multi coated but the more expensive one has scratch proof glass and has more coatings. I don't think it is necessary to use the more expensive one on a projector. I think Daren was refering to the more expensive one which is out of stock. The difference in price is about $25.

rwestley

10-08-05, 11:58 PM

If some has good results with the filter could you post your settings. Last year Brad Bissell
posted his settings and they were a great starting point with the 700.

ike

10-10-05, 01:50 PM

I wish someone could tell me how to tweak this VB/FPN out of my AE900...

I've done the flicker tweak and saw no noticeable improvement

Jermmd

10-10-05, 02:00 PM

I wish someone could tell me how to tweak this VB/FPN out of my AE900...

I've done the flicker tweak and saw no noticeable improvement

I wonder if the "Dot Clock" or "Clock Phase" adjustments in the Position Menu will help? I'm glad I don't notice these issues on my 900. I don't really even see it on the jpeg you posted.

Jermmd

10-10-05, 02:03 PM

ike

10-10-05, 02:09 PM

I wonder if the "Dot Clock" or "Clock Phase" adjustments in the Position Menu will help? I'm glad I don't notice these issues on my 900. I don't really even see it on the jpeg you posted.

To me, it's plain as day in my "Lost" screen capture. Maybe that's why some people say there's no VB/FPN. Maybe they are just unable to see it.

I have no idea what the "Dot clock" or "Clock Phase" adjustments would do for VB/FPN. The only tweak I've read about for VB/FPN is the flicker tweak.

If Panasonic designed this projector to be able to tweak out VB/FPN, I wish they would tell me how !!!

MikeSRC

10-10-05, 02:09 PM

I wonder if the "Dot Clock" or "Clock Phase" adjustments in the Position Menu will help?

They're not available on HDMI and Dot Clock is only available on the PC input, so I don't think they'll be much help.

MikeSRC

10-10-05, 02:13 PM

How are people adjusting the picture to start? I started with the "Natural" setting and used Digital Essentials to adjust brightness, color, etc. Like I said elsewhere, I feel the picture is pretty spectacular right out of the box. I use component and started with "normal" setting to 96" diagonal DaLite Cinema Contour screen.

I posted the color temp and RGB%s for each setting on the main AE900 thread here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6316970&&#post6316970). Cinema 1 is the most accurate right out of the box, but it may not be bright enough for some setups.

rwestley

10-10-05, 02:16 PM

ike

10-10-05, 02:49 PM

Did you wait until the projector was on for about an hour before you did the flicker tweak?

I would contact Panasonic if the tweak does not work letting them know about the VB problem. It could be misalignment of the lcd panels.

Yep, did that. BUT - someone in the "OFFICIAL" thread got me thinking about my screen and I posted the following there as well...

Wow - guys, you got me thinking about my screen. So I did the following tests:

1. I paused my "Lost" scene where VB/FPN was most noticeable. Then I moved the adjustable lens joystick around. The vertical streaks did NOT MOVE !! They stayed in the same position.

2. I re-centered the picture and then moved to a steep off-axis sitting position. NO VP/FPN whatsoever in the picture.

3. I changed the projector from Ceiling to Desk mount, flipping the picture. The streaks stayed near the top of the picture.

UNBELIEVABLE. I'm now 99% convinced that my screen is the culprit. But how ?? It's a tensioned screen with no visible waves. Could my screen have some kind of defects vertically ? Could the tension be just uneven enough to cause a problem ?

If it truely is my screen, sorry for causing you all to get nervous regarding the AE900.

Jermmd

10-10-05, 05:48 PM

They're not available on HDMI and Dot Clock is only available on the PC input, so I don't think they'll be much help.

In the manual under clock phase for component it says to set dot clock first. This has something to do with distortions in or from vertical lines so I though it might be helpful. I obviously have no idea what these adjustments do but since they mention problems with vertical lines I thought they might be helpful.

To me, it's plain as day in my "Lost" screen capture. Maybe that's why some people say there's no VB/FPN. Maybe they are just unable to see it.

I think you're right ike. In my case, ignorance is bliss.

tvted

10-10-05, 07:12 PM

In the manual under clock phase for component it says to set dot clock first. This has something to do with distortions in or from vertical lines so I though it might be helpful. I obviously have no idea what these adjustments do but since they mention problems with vertical lines I thought they might be helpful.

Makes sure that the clock that steps the individual RGB panels arrive at the panel in phase such that the analogue voltages that drive the individual LCD panel's pixel columns are in lock step, I believe. Basically it insures that all panels are addressed simultaneously.

I've played with the dot clock on my 700 - it is of no value for VB as far as I can tell. When I used the VGA input, AUTO adjust was optimum. VB is an illumination, not timing problem. DOT CLOCK errors *can* make your desktop fuzzy.

There just may be enough room to mount it inside between the "paddle" iris and the DMD block.

Any optical (it look better now) reason for doing this Mr. R? or have you been retired too long? ;)

ted

Jermmd

10-10-05, 08:09 PM

I posted this in the other Panny thread but it really belongs here.
My unofficial and quick settings are as follows:
In the Natural mode-Brightness -5, Contrast -2, Color -5, low lamp setting, noise reduction off. I read above that Cinema 1 was closest to ideal settings and I may start there and try again. I'd like to hear what other people are doing.

Fife

10-10-05, 08:11 PM

Does the 900 have a threaded lens to allow esy screw on of these filters or dsoes it require some special mod to hold the filter in front of the lens?

rwestley

10-10-05, 09:20 PM

From what I know it uses the same filter as the 700 and has a threaded lens.

ChrisWiggles

10-10-05, 09:51 PM

yes the lens is threaded.

rboster

10-14-05, 05:49 PM

Anyone like to share their settings after calibration with or without a filter?

Thanks
Ron

rwestley

10-14-05, 05:58 PM

Would someone with a filter try the settings that most of us started with on the 700.

Brad Bissell's settings were the ones many of us used. I wonder how they would work on
the 900.

George Montemayor

10-17-05, 07:27 PM

Any more news on the filter experiments? Mike, can you recommend a CC30R to purchase? The CC30R filters I can find at bhphotovideo are the rectangular Cokin/Lee filter types.

MikeSRC

10-17-05, 09:39 PM

I should have more info tomorrow night when I get a chance to play around more with the 900.

I've got a Tiffen CC20R filter that is pretty good quality, but it's a smaller diameter. I tried a Nikon CC30R once and it wasn't good for projector use. It filtered unevenly from the center outward, causing a big drop off in brightness. The round ones are hard to find, especially in the size needed for AE900. That's probably why the 81EF is used instead. Many just buy the square ones and work with them.

darinp2

10-18-05, 08:35 PM

Would someone with a filter try the settings that most of us started with on the 700.

Brad Bissell's settings were the ones many of us used. I wonder how they would work on
the 900.
Could somebody please supply a pointer to where I can find these settings. I could try them with the KR-6 filter on the AE900, if that filter is what they are for.

Thanks,
Darin

MikeSRC

10-18-05, 09:10 PM

I believe they're the ones posted here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5208615r#post5208615).

It will be interesting to see if they work out pretty close with the 900.

CKL

10-18-05, 09:44 PM

Without the help of filter, I think Normal is the best choice. It ouput plenty of luminance plus fairly accurate color (30-90IRE D65 tracking).

MikeSRC

10-18-05, 09:58 PM

I got better results with Cinema 1 or Natural. The RGB% readings and lumens below are at 100 IRE, but the color temp is an average from 30-100 IRE.

Cinema 1

R%=96, G%=102, B%=100 at 100 IRE
Ave. color temp=6600
300 lumens

Cinema 2

R%=85, G%=104, B%=97 at 100 IRE
Ave. color temp=7000
325 lumens

Cinema 3

R%=80, G%=104, B%=105 at 100 IRE
Ave. color temp=8400
375 lumens

Video

R%=72, G%=105, B%=108 at 100 IRE
Ave. color temp=10,200
525 lumens

Natural

R%=91, G%=102, B%=101 at 100 IRE
Ave. color temp=7500
300 lumens

Normal

R%=76, G%=105, B%=105 at 100 IRE
Ave. color temp=9300
525 lumens

Dynamic

R%=70, G%=105, B%=108 at 100 IRE
Ave. color temp=10,000
575 lumens

ac388

10-18-05, 10:24 PM

Without the help of filter, I think Normal is the best choice. It ouput plenty of luminance plus fairly accurate color (30-90IRE D65 tracking).

Is your AE900 review coming out yet ???

LazMan

10-18-05, 11:28 PM

CKL

10-19-05, 07:24 AM

Is your AE900 review coming out yet ???

Completed the first stage of testing/measurment/calibration. I'm considering to do more calibration work of Dynamic picture mode plus filter. Hopefully the review can be posted within this week.

tvted

10-19-05, 07:55 AM

I know this is a common questions, but I haven't really gotten a good answer.

I may be getting a 900 this week and would like to know if it's worth getting an upconverting DVD player or to use the built in scaler? I'll mostly use the projector for DVD movies. I'll get an HDMI upconverting DVD player, or stick with my decent progressive DVD using component cables.

Anyone?

Thanks,

LazMan

It really does depend on the quality of the 900's scaler vs that of the DVD player so its not easy to say. You would have to check for yourself. A recent DVD player will likely provide you with a better PQ since it will likely incorporate newer chipsets.

If you haven't seen the following
An informative thread regarding scalers can be found here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=477740).
DVD comparisons can be found in this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=423609)

ted

CKL

10-20-05, 03:53 AM

Today, I tried its Cinema1 mode. It can be tracked to have accurate D65 white balance from 30-100IRE. The picture is smoother and more comfortable (less noise) comparing to that at Normal. But the luminance after calibration is around half of that at Normal mode. Normal provides more dynamic and contrast.

Regarding the Dynamic mode, after adjusting the proper black and white levels, it can provide 8xx lumen before D65 tracking. I tried the Hoya FL Day which push red and blue at the same time and cut too much luminance. The Cokin Red and Orange filter also don't work. All my old Kodak CC10/20/30/40R filters have been damage because they were very thin plastic film. I hope to borrow a CC20R filter tomorrow.

CKL

10-20-05, 10:36 AM

I just tried 81A and 81B filter with Dynamic mode. 81 filter is used to cut the blue level which cut more blue from A to C. There is no stock of 81C in the nearby store. 77mm filter can be screwed onto AE900's lens. I finally use Hoya 77mm 81A plus Cokin 81B. After calibration, it can get fairly accurate D65 from 30-90IRE. The on/off contrast is 4600:1 and the black level is lowered near 50% comparing to those at Cinema1 and Normal without filter.

Clark Burk

10-20-05, 10:54 AM

CKL, How much lower are the Lumens when you use both the 81A and 81B filters?

rwestley

10-20-05, 10:58 AM

CKl we are all looking forward to your review. I hope you compare the AE900 to the other units you have reviewed.

Regarding the reduction in brightness with the filter. Do you think that is still enough brightness for use in a light controled room? I also hope you plan to campare sharpness vs the Sanyo Z4 along with VB and SD.

tvted

10-20-05, 12:40 PM

How does the DYNAMIC mode on the 900 compare to the 700?
On the 700 I consider it to be wack. Noisy, over-enhanced with strange gamma - basically unwieldy.

Did I say wack? :)

ted

MikeSRC

10-20-05, 12:56 PM

It's the same on the 900, wack. ;)

Look at the default numbers I posted above, 10K color temp and red is 30% lower than blue and green. However, with a CC30R filter, it might just be tamed. CKL's finding offer some hope in that regard. I meant to get this done a couple of days ago, but I plan on checking it out a little later today.

sainthalo

10-20-05, 01:13 PM

MikeSRC and CLK: The z3 responds best to use of a cc30r filter so its definitely a good candidate for correcting the ae900 :)

CKL

10-21-05, 02:24 AM

81A+81B cuts 50% of the luminance. Although the on/off contrast is double at Dynamic mode with filters, the real contrast in the movies doesn't improve at the same degree. I think it is limited by the ANSI contrast. I'm typing the review and may post it at AVBuzz tomorrow.

rwestley

10-21-05, 06:11 AM

CKL, I hope you also post a comparision of the AE900, Z4 and other projectors you have reviewed.

ac388

10-21-05, 07:41 AM

Did you try the Normal mode with the 2 filters ? Is the ANSI too low ???

Scrawner

10-21-05, 03:51 PM

Guys -- have any of you experienced VB with your 900u? If so, have you been able to tweak it at all using the Service Menus? My new 900 is having some prominent VB issues. I'm looking for others to compare with. There is a discussion here. Any feedback would be appreciated.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6396255&&#post6396255

darinp2

10-21-05, 07:33 PM

I've been doing some calibration in Normal with the FR-6 filter. I find that red drops off around 90 and 100 IRE, but reducing blue and green a reasonable amount doesn't seem to flatten things out. I may just live with the lower red in the high IREs for a while and see how it goes.

One thing I noticed is that red things in darks seem to be way too orange, even though my grayscale setup seems to indicate pretty balanced colors there. I've been using "Bring It On" and I think this feature where you go find an item in a picture and modify the Color, Tint, and Brightness for that pixel is great. Did the AE700 have this feature? If not, that could be an advantage of the AE900. Anyway, I was able to improve the look of the reds even though I didn't feel like I fixed things completely. The ring posts in an HD boxing recording went from really orange to almost red. The skintones seem good to me, it is just the reds looking a little orange and also kind of cartoonish at times. I'm going to try some of this stuff on my H79 again for comparison, as I remember the reds looked like I wanted with that on some of this same material before.

--Darin

MikeSRC

10-22-05, 12:00 PM

Tried the CC30R filter yesterday. It's not enough to overcome the extreme range of the Dynamic setting, so I tried the setting with the next highest output, Normal. In High lamp mode, I get the following default measurements, which are better than the Low lamp measurements posted previously:

R%=79, G%=105, B%=104 at 100 IRE
Ave. color temp=8700
738 lumens

With the filter:

R%=94, G%=101, B%=101 at 100 IRE
Ave. color temp=7100
403 lumens

This puts it pretty close to the Cinema 1 defaults, but with a 33% higher output. I haven't had a chance to measure any CR differences, but it looks like there's some potential here.

tvted

10-22-05, 01:04 PM

One thing I noticed is that red things in darks seem to be way too orange, even though my grayscale setup seems to indicate pretty balanced colors there. I've been using "Bring It On"
...and there is no other reason you are using this film? ;)

Doesn't an FR filter flourescent? As that would be filtering blue green it might account somenwhat for an orange emphasis.

...and I think this feature where you go find an item in a picture and modify the Color, Tint, and Brightness for that pixel is great. Did the AE700 have this feature?

--Darin
It does - Colour Management.

Are either you or Mike willing to try VIDEO? This mode proved to be the most successful on the 700 for filter balancing though was not the brightest.

ted

MikeSRC

10-22-05, 01:20 PM

Are either you or Mike willing to try VIDEO? This mode proved to be the most successful on the 700 for filter balancing though was not the brightest.

ted

I did with the CC30R filter, but it's almost the same as Dynamic, too far off. Normal has the same limen output, but is much more balanced.

CT_Wiebe

10-22-05, 11:09 PM

Scrawner (& ike) -- You have to be careful with blaming VB on the PJ, some sources have VB in them - a part of the recording/broadcasting process.

A classic example is the Tatoine desert sequence in Star Wars "A New Hope" (Ep. IV), in which the VB was on the oiginal film, due to the extreme heat, on location, even though measures were taken to eliminate these problems.

rwestley

10-23-05, 07:15 AM

CKL, Thanks for your review of the AE900. The sharpness issue at 1080i also seems like a problem for some. Do you have any suggestions on how this may be solved since many stations send out HD in 1080i? Were you able to get 65k with the filters?

CKL Review below:

http://www.avbuzz.com/audio-video/200510/ae900-ckl/index.htm

Several 81C 77mm filters are available and in stock at B+H photo in the US.
Do you know what the differences are?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&kw=HO81CMC77&is=REG&Q=&O=productlist&sku=147879

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&kw=HO81C77&is=REG&Q=&O=productlist&sku=22449

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&kw=TI81C77&is=REG&Q=&O=productlist&sku=54780

B+W filter 81C 77mm

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=11058&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=11078&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

scotty144

10-23-05, 10:38 AM

I think he shows his settings in the screen shots of the different modes?

CKL

10-23-05, 11:26 AM

I've captured the settings in AE900's menu for Cinema 1, Normal and Dynamic + filters in my review. Please be reminded that the settings are adjusted for Stewart Studio and Crystalio. The difference of color temp between various DVD player with digital out is not hugh. Differet screens may have 5-15% variation of the color temp.

From the diagram of RGB Level at the default Dynamic, I think you can lower the blue offset to make blue level be in line with Green. Then cut Blue and Green 40% by CC40R to make RGB line up. I guess CC40R cut 50% luminance which is similar to 81A+81B. But CC40R may make AE900 provide higher on/off contrast.

rwestley

10-23-05, 11:27 AM

Scotty144, thanks for pointing this out. I edited my questions. I would love to know if there would be a way to increase the sharpness at 1080i. That seems to be a slight problem for some. I also would like more information on the noise from CKL.

I would also hope that Mike might be able to try one of these filters with CKl's settings

I also wonder if a multicoating is necessary for projection.

Things are getting instresting.

CKL

10-23-05, 12:31 PM

The softness at 1080i is not too serious. I just have a soft feeling comparing other 720P projector handling the same signal. Its DAC, scaling and deinterlacing for 1080i is not bad. Converting 1080i to 720P by external processor can solve this weakness.

Regarding video noise, I'm mainly talking the mosquito noise at the background. LCD should have much less mosquito noise than that at DLP. But I don't know why D5 doesn't act like other LCD panels after viewing three D5 projectors. Poor quality DVDs show more noise than others. Even the best picture quality of Japanese Pop MTV (NTSC 30frame with 10bit bitrate) is not quite good at AE900. Well, Z4 is better than the other two in this area, but it is still far behind HS60.

If you are not sensitive to this kind of noise, then AE900 is fine for you. As I mentioned in the review, you can use lower gain gay screen and sit far away from the screen to lower the noise level.

darinp2

10-23-05, 01:18 PM

I guess CC40R cut 50% luminance which is similar to 81A+81B.
I used to think these were percentages (CC40R cutting a relative 40% of the blue and green), but found out later that they are densities, with a CC40R having a density of .4. Just like a 2x or 50% neutral density filter is a .3 density, a CC30R will cut 50%. I don't remember what the number is for a CC40R, but I believe it is 60-some%.

BTW: Is anybody else having issues with orangish reds with a lot of things? I think the red primary looks good, but with a KR-6 filter a lot of things are just too orange (things that look red and closer to right to me on my DLPs) even after adjustments in the advanced stuff for modifying levels for a particular pixel. Is anybody else having that issue?

--Darin

tvted

10-23-05, 04:33 PM

BTW: Is anybody else having issues with orangish reds with a lot of things? I think the red primary looks good, but with a KR-6 filter a lot of things are just too orange (things that look red and closer to right to me on my DLPs) even after adjustments in the advanced stuff for modifying levels for a particular pixel. Is anybody else having that issue?

--Darin

Are you considering that an KR6 will cut blue and green in ways that an 81 or CC will not - transmission spectrum. I would think a KR-6 would lend itself to emphasizing orange (even considering a calibration) as each wavelength is being filtered differently. The primary balance controls are pretty coarse especially when considering gamma tracking. Have you played with Bias?

Are you noticing noise - and would you consider it true "mosquito noise"? I thought this was a decoder/scaler issue? Am I mistaken?

ted

CKL

10-23-05, 06:24 PM

Thanks Darinp2 for your information.

n0s

10-23-05, 06:32 PM

Anychance someone has a photo of the AE900's video noise or something that looks like it, im not entirely sure i get what you guys mean.

tvted

10-23-05, 09:17 PM

Thanks Darinp2 for your information.

Lee Filters CC40R drops output by luminance by 1 F stop (50%). The CC30R is 2/3 of a Stop. The 81EF is also 2/3 of a Stop (33%).

ted

darinp2

10-24-05, 04:59 AM

Lee Filters CC40R drops output by luminance by 1 F stop (50%). The CC30R is 2/3 of a Stop. The 81EF is also 2/3 of a Stop (33%).

Thanks. But now I'm confused. If you search on the bhphotovideo.com site for KOCC30R66 and go under "More info" it will say:
The "30" stands for a density of 0.30 and the "M" is for magenta. Kodak color compensating filters are made in the following increasing densities: 0.025(CC025), 0.05(CC05), 0.10(CC10), 0.20(CC20), 0.30(CC30), 0.40(CC40), 0.50(CC50).
Then if you go look at info on neutral density filters it will say:

ND .10 (exposure adjustment = 1/3 stop)
ND .20 (exposure adjustment = 2/3 stop)
ND .30 (exposure adjustment = 1 stop)
ND .40 (exposure adjustment = 1 1/3 stops)
ND .50 (exposure adjustment = 1 2/3 stops)
ND .60 (exposure adjustment = 2 stops)
ND .70 (exposure adjustment = 2 1/3 stops)
ND .80 (exposure adjustment = 2 2/3stops)
ND .90 (exposure adjustment = 3 stops)
ND 1.0 (exposure adjustment = 3 1/3stops )
ND 2.0 (exposure adjustment = 6 2/3stops)
ND 3.0 (exposure adjustment = 10stops)
ND 4.0 (exposure adjustment = 13 1/3stops)

Are Lees different than others? It would seem that a CC30R should be density of .3 and thus 1 stop and it would seem strange to have a CC30R be a density that matches up with 2/3 stop (.2).

EDIT: I found a list for Lee filters on there and it looks pretty messed up. Like it is just a bunch of typos (or they are only counting total light drop and not the drop for the primary colors it is meant to cut). For instance, it says:

CC10Y: +1/3 stop
CC15Y: +1/3 stop
CC20Y: +1/3 stop
CC25Y: +1/3 stop
CC30Y: +1/3 stop
CC40Y: +1/3 stop
CC50Y: +1/3 stop

Now because blue is the weakest intensity in general maybe this is true for the stop down of the total light, but I doubt very much that the stop down for blue with CCXXY filters match those listed. I would expect the drop for blue to follow the standard of 30 being .3 density (or 1 stop), 40 being .4 density (or 1 .33 stops), etc.

--Darin

rwestley

10-24-05, 06:52 AM

I am just wondering if it might be better to test with B+W, Heliopan or Hoya filters. These brands seem to have very good quality control compared to other brands.

tvted

10-24-05, 07:58 AM

Are Lees different than others? It would seem that a CC30R should be density of .3 and thus 1 stop and it would seem strange to have a CC30R be a density that matches up with 2/3 stop (.2).

--Darin

The info I have comes directly from one on the LEE sample books I have hereabouts, which provides Exposure Increase, Filter Factor and Transmission Graphs. When I sought these out, I asked the distributor about CC filter transmission as I too had noticed some differences as I had remembered them from photography. His claim was that some Lee filters do have better average overall light transmission.

So basically I'm taking their chart claims verbatim. I find the transmission curves particularly useful. I was living under the illusion that I might be able to inverse the light curve of a UHP and the maximum gains of the primaries when fooling with SMART. - If only. :rolleyes: :)

The .1 ND through .9 ND listing you provided is accurate per my sample book.
The listing for the CC Yellow are also correct (1/3 stop) per the book. As to why this is so - the transmission chart indicates that the yellow is acting like a notch filter so seems to be having little impact on the overall output. I do agree, however that the impact shouldn't be negligable.

ted

.

dedwards

10-24-05, 08:37 AM

Hello All,

I have a 900 on order, and I'm waiting for it to arrive. This is my second projector, I've been enjoying my Z-1 for over 2 yrs. now.

I would like to get the best picture from the 900, without spending a lot of time and effort on tweaking. So, I'd like to see if there is a conensus about the baseline settings to use for this pj.

My basement room is light-controlled, and I have a 90" HCCV screen.

So far, I am planning to use the Cinema1 mode, low lamp, and overscan=0.

Any other suggestions for simple settings that should be changed from the default? (Without getting into filters, light meters, color calibrators, etc.)

Thanks to everyone for all the great info - this forum rules!

DE

darinp2

10-24-05, 01:39 PM

The .1 ND through .9 ND listing you provided is accurate per my sample book.
The listing for the CC Yellow are also correct (1/3 stop) per the book. As to why this is so - the transmission chart indicates that the yellow is acting like a notch filter so seems to be having little impact on the overall output. I do agree, however that the impact shouldn't be negligable.

I think the difference here is just what you mentioned. That they are listing the stops for the overall light output and not for the primaries that the filter is meant to cut. What I was commenting on was the stops for the blue in a CCxxY filter and the green and blue for a CCxxR filter. That is what is important to the color balance. I believe even with Lee filters that a CC30R should be 1 stop down on green and blue and a CC40R should be 1.33 stops down on green and blue (relatively, since red does have some transmission loss).

--Darin

eddieb187

10-24-05, 03:50 PM

Will these settings work well with the Optoma GrayWolf 106"?

http://www.avbuzz.com/audio-video/200510/ae900-ckl/index.htm

PJ is shelf mounted 11' from screen dead center height.
Seating 12' from screen behind and to side of pj.
Mostly view at night for the light control, room too bright in the day time.
What do you think?

MRJAZZZ

10-24-05, 07:23 PM

DARINP2

Reds on my 900 look very nice. Nicely saturated, and no hint of orange. Using NORMAL setting, with little adjustment other than I have bright reduced several clcks at the moment.

CHEERS, TC

darinp2

10-24-05, 07:29 PM

Reds on my 900 look very nice. Nicely saturated, and no hint of orange. Using NORMAL setting, with little adjustment other than I have bright reduced several clcks at the moment.

Thanks. Are you using a filter? Without a filter the blackouts (or near blackouts) are pretty blue on mine.

--Darin

CKL

10-25-05, 10:45 AM

I suggest to mask the filter facing the lens with black velvet to absorb the useless light so as to improve the contrast. Reflected light back to the lens may affect the contrast.

Sankar

10-25-05, 12:14 PM

I do not have the expensive equipment to track grayscale, measure primaries, etc., and so this is what I did last night using my trusty Avia's color bars to adjust my AE900:

Started with Cinema 1 (understand that it has the best grayscale tracking?)
Put up the blue flashing bars pattern in Avia and adjusted the color and tint.
I then went to the color decoder test pattern in Avia ... blue looks ok, but red and green were off. (Could this be the reported "yellow" tinge)
Next I put up the red flashing bars and viewed using the red filter ... they were off. So I used the CCM menu, pointed the cursor to the red region (not the "white" part) in the pattern and set the color (on the selected region) to line up the flashing bars. Didn't touch tint at all. Only the color saturation.
Saved the settings as USER1
Did the same step as d) using the green flashing color bars.
When I check the color decoder page, everything looks OK. Also verified that the blue color bars were still ok. The hues on the red and green pattern pages also look more closely matched.

I haven't spent time watching movies after this step, but I did notice that in HD the green content is a bit lower than before (possibly more "natural" looking grass). I may go back and start with the blue again ... but this time not touch the "tint" at all ...

Experts, does this make sense as a way to proceed when one only has Avia?

dedwards

10-27-05, 03:15 PM

Well, I got my 900 set up and I have a question about the brightness setting -

I'm running in low lamp mode, and I used Avia to calibrate. In order to match the "black bars" pattern, I had to turn the brightness way down (-18). I thought this was odd, so I double-checked it with DVE - same result.

Now, the picture looks gorgeous in my light-controlled room. The blacks are way better than my old Z1. I just thought it was odd to turn down the brightness control so much when the lamp was already set to low. Thoughts?

Also, the color looks good except maybe the reds are a little bit orange. Where should I start to try and fix this? TIA,

DE

PiNPOiNT

10-27-05, 03:21 PM

Speaking of the Avia colour bars, i've seemed to have misplaced mine. Is there anyway i can get a replacement without having to buy the dvd again? or something else i can use to get the proper colours aligned?

MikeSRC

10-28-05, 12:07 PM

Did some checking last night on the effect of lens shift on convergence and it's definitely a factor. With the lens in the center joystick position, convergence is very good with only the slightestmisalignment. However, moving the lens to anywhere near the maximum range vertically throws the convergence off. It's not noticeable from a normal viewing distance, but if you get up close, you can see the difference easily, especially on white screen text. Horizontal shift seems to have less of an effect. Changing the panel adjustments in the service menu does not help this, so it's best to keep the projector lens within the confines of the screen height when mounting it.

tvted

10-28-05, 01:07 PM

Changing the panel adjustments in the service menu does not help this, so it's best to keep the projector lens within the confines of the screen height when mounting it.

Mike,

Has anyone noted definitively what that menu setting is for?
I wish manufacturers provided a simple means for adjusting convergence.

ted

MikeSRC

10-28-05, 01:32 PM

I don't know, but it's adjustment range is small. Pushing it to the limits creates some banding in the vertical color bars, but that's about all I can see.

tvted

10-28-05, 01:39 PM

I don't know, but it's adjustment range is small. Pushing it to the limits creates some banding in the vertical color bars, but that's about all I can see.

Sounds like timing stuff.

Guess I'll have to buy one to futz about.
Oh yeah, can't do; "wait for C2Fine " he says, looking in mirror. :eek:

ted

donyoop

10-28-05, 03:16 PM

Sankar

10-28-05, 04:32 PM

Sankar

10-29-05, 10:16 AM

I finally got to spend some time last night with the AE900 after the color adjustments I described in this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6414887&&#post6414887).

Between Rome and Bill Maher, I was surfing around and came onto a channel where they were interviewing some porn star. Normally, I would not have stopped to watch (of course not ;) ), but the desire to further scientific inquiry took the better of me ... how better to check out the colors than on flesh scenes? And what better chance given that everyone else had gone to sleep after a long day? So in the interest of all the folks in this forum, I literally forced myself to watch this attractive starlet conducting an interview in the pink. (you have to admire my dedication)

I do not claim that my eyes are a replacement for measuring equipment, but I am usually quite sensitive to color imbalances. The colors seem to be pretty dead on to my eyes at least. There is no hint of excess yellow in flesh tones and the differences between different people felt very natural (no pun here). There were a lot of scenes with red, but none with green. Reds looked rich and well saturated with no hint of excess. I switched between the USER1 and normal profiles a couple of times and could clearly see that there was a slight tendency towards yellow in the uncalibrated AE900 (even this had the saturation and hue set using the blue color bars only)

Has someone else also tried something similar?

rwestley

11-04-05, 12:29 AM

I have been out or the country and I will return on Monday. I just had a chance to check this thread again and I was wondering if there have been any more tweaks using a filter.

rwestley

11-09-05, 06:38 AM

I am bumping this up to see if anyone has used a filter on the AE900. The filter thread was very popular on the AE700 and Brad Bissell's settings were are great starting point for tweaks with that projector. I wonder how the AE900 would do with the same filter used for the 700 and what settings would be used? I am also wondering if anyone has any new tweaks for this projector.

suffolk112000

11-09-05, 07:51 AM

I wish someone could tell me how to tweak this VB/FPN out of my AE900...

I've done the flicker tweak and saw no noticeable improvement

Interesting that you got such little response out of this.
When I saw the picture, I said, wow... I have the exact same looking picture and my problem is the screen.
I have a 58x104 Da-Lite HCCV screen wall mounted and the wrinkles are in the exact same spot! I bought my screen from this site, and have been instructed to return it if the wrinkles don't come out. They also told me to use a hair dryer on the screen if it does not work out. Then, if something gets messed up or the screen simply does not straiten out then I should return it.
Anyway, after reading further down into this thread, I noticed that you discovered what the problem was.

Anyway, I don't know where you bought your screen from. (hopefully an authorized dealer) But I would speak with them about your wrinkle issue. Ask them about using a hair dryer to tighten the screen and see what they recommend. Just make sure they will take it back if you mess it up. ;)

Good luck. :)

Craig

ike

11-09-05, 02:18 PM

Interesting that you got such little response out of this.
When I saw the picture, I said, wow... I have the exact same looking picture and my problem is the screen.
I have a 58x104 Da-Lite HCCV screen wall mounted and the wrinkles are in the exact same spot! I bought my screen from this site, and have been instructed to return it if the wrinkles don't come out. They also told me to use a hair dryer on the screen if it does not work out. Then, if something gets messed up or the screen simply does not straiten out then I should return it.
Anyway, after reading further down into this thread, I noticed that you discovered what the problem was.

Anyway, I don't know where you bought your screen from. (hopefully an authorized dealer) But I would speak with them about your wrinkle issue. Ask them about using a hair dryer to tighten the screen and see what they recommend. Just make sure they will take it back if you mess it up. ;)

Good luck. :)

Craig

Yes - I saw your post in the screen section as well. I did purchase my screen from an authorized dealer and they have been very helpful. They sent me a replacment HCCV and it has the same streaking issues.

Then DaLite got me in touch with a local representative in my area and I discussed this issue with him for about 45 minutes. He ended up saying that the reflective coating on the HCCV can cause some streaking and that I would be much happier with the High Contrast Da Mat. So I've asked my screen vendor to replace my HCCV with that - and they have agreed to do so.

However, after reading other posts in the screen forum, I've seen people complain more about the HC Da Mat and some have said that streaks and sparkles are worse with that material. If I find the same, I will keep my HCCV, return the Da Mat, Sell my HCCV and purchase a Stewart screen in hopes of finally getting a screen that does not cause streaking.

BTW - I don't think the problem with my HCCV screen is wrinkles. I don't see any visible wrinkles where the streaks appear in the picture. The screen looks perfect in those areas but shine a scene with a light-colored background, and the streaks are painfully obvious.

suffolk112000

11-09-05, 02:36 PM

ike

11-09-05, 03:25 PM

Hmmm...
Ike, I am pretty sure my issue is wrinkles because when I put my halogen light up to the left edge of the screen (about 4 feet from the screen) and angle the light so it is shining across the screen. Then stand on the right side and look back across the screen to the left, I can see waves in the middle of the screen like in your picture.
I think my issue is that the screen is just not quite tight enough.
Example: I can pull on the screen in between the snaps with the light shinning across the screen like I mentioned above and some of the wrinkles improve. ;)
I am hoping that using the hairdryer works for me as I don't want to send the screen back!!!
Other than this issue, I am extremely happy with the projector and screen.
By the way, I recommend getting masking.
It is like supercharging your contrast levels!!

Craig

Interesting. So do you mean that if you don't do the "Halogen Light Test" you can't otherwise see wrinkles ? Maybe I'll give it a try on my screen.

Please do report back if firing the hair dryer is able to solve your issues.

Also - my DaLite Perm Wall has black masking on it for the 16:9 aspect. When you mention masking do you mean for other aspect ratios ?

suffolk112000

11-09-05, 04:01 PM

Interesting. So do you mean that if you don't do the "Halogen Light Test" you can't otherwise see wrinkles ? Maybe I'll give it a try on my screen.

Please do report back if firing the hair dryer is able to solve your issues.

Also - my DaLite Perm Wall has black masking on it for the 16:9 aspect. When you mention masking do you mean for other aspect ratios ?

I can see the wrinkles when watching a movie. (in bright scenes) I can not see them if the lights are on in my theater because it is a very dark, light controlled room. The only time, I can see the wrinkles when not watching a movie, is when I am shining a bright light onto the screen, or if I am right up close to it.
Yes the masking that I have is electric and is adjusted via remote control well beyond 2:35:1 and cinema scope.
This way I can watch a movie on my 58x104 16x9 screen. Then if I decide to watch a movie that is for example 2:35:1 I can remotely adjust my screen size to the black bars on the screen.
With out the black bars on the screen it really helps contrast.

Craig :)

DigitalC

11-09-05, 05:49 PM

I have noticed a thin black line at the top and bottom of the screen when there is a letterbox/black bars. It's inside of the black, on the image, about 1/8" from the bars on top and bottom. In between the fine line and black bars, the area is kind of highlighted or brighter than the rest of the image. Anyone see this or know the reason?

I was going to include a picture, but I guess I don't know how. Sorry

Bugaboos

11-09-05, 05:54 PM

How about taking all the screen issues to the screens forum, please?

tony123

11-09-05, 06:36 PM

DigitalC

11-09-05, 08:23 PM

Bugaboos,
My question is regarding the image coming from my AE900U, thank you very much. Your right, this thread is for 900 tweaking, what are your settings? Do you have a 900?

Bugaboos

11-10-05, 12:05 AM

ike

11-10-05, 12:30 AM

DigitalC, sorry if I accidentally offended you. I was referring to the 5 sequential posts before yours on screen wrinkles, which I doubt any amount of projector tweaking will fix.

No, I don't have an AE900 yet. I'm still deciding between the AE900 and the Z4 to replace an aging CRT, so I'm very interested in the tweakability of these two projectors to see if either will make me happy compared to the blacks and contrast I've had on an 80" CRT.

Well - I was an early-adopter AE900 owner who believed my pj had some kind of vertical banding or FPN going on but through discussions in this thread (if you've actually read the whole thread), I was able to determine that it was my screen causing the artifact and not the projector. So you can thank us for sorting this out so that you don't have to worry about VB/FPN if you ever decide to replace your old tank.

suffolk112000

11-10-05, 01:00 PM

....So you can thank us for sorting this out so that you don't have to worry about VB/FPN if you ever decide to replace your old tank.

Hahahahahahahaha... that is to funny. :)
Like it or not, your screen is a very important element in tweaking your AE-900 or any pj.
Choosing the right screen can make or break a pj and can do more for a projector in terms of improving the picture, than filters or tweaking or what ever so I don't think the topic is that far off base... if any at all.
Like ike said... if talking about screens in this thread saves someone else (including your self) some headaches than it will have served its purpose.

Craig

FeanorMundoDVD

11-10-05, 04:34 PM

Hello to everybody!

First of all, sorry for me english I am spanish.

I am a owner of panasonic ae900 and after read the ckl review on AVBUZZ I decided to buy the Hoya 81C filter. I have used the settings such as in the review, but the review is calibrated for 81a+81b. I don't have any measuring device I have only my eyes. With the review settings the color is not as in the cinema1 mode, I guess that the settings can't be the same if you use 81c instead of the two fileters. So, is there someone that use the 81C? It will be very helpful to get a more accurate calibration, of course I understand that every projector has variations, but I suppose that the result can be better.

Thanks in advance.

DigitalC

11-10-05, 05:01 PM

The company I bought my pj from have looked at my pics and determined that one of the lcd panels is out of alignment and they are going to replace my unit.

DigitalC

11-11-05, 12:34 PM

Since Panny manufactures this unit with threads in front of the lens, does anyone know if they make other lenses and filters to go with it?

InPhase

11-11-05, 12:49 PM

rboster

11-11-05, 01:18 PM

I'm about to pull the trigger on the AE900, but want to confirm something first. Has anyone paired it up with a Da-Lite High Power screen? If so, what are your impressions. I don't want to deal with the waves from the other screens and prefer a bright picture. TIA! :)

Welcome to AVS. Here is a thread in the screens forum that has a discussion on screen matches with the AE900:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=597954

This thread is more about filters, settings and calibrating the projector...but maybe someone visiting might have tried that screen material.

Ron

MikeSRC

11-11-05, 02:01 PM

rwestley

11-12-05, 10:37 AM

tvted

11-12-05, 10:51 AM

Mike thanks for your settings. I wonder if use of a filter would improve contrast as it did on the AE700? I would love to see someone with the equipment test the 900 with filters to see of it was possible to improve contrast and get 65k without decreasing brightness too much.

Richard,
Do you still have your filter from the 700?
Why not try it as per the 700's settings and see what you think?
My reason? Can the primaries between these models be *that* different?

ted

George Montemayor

11-12-05, 12:42 PM

Mike thanks for your settings. I wonder if use of a filter would improve contrast as it did on the AE700? I would love to see someone with the equipment test the 900 with filters to see of it was possible to improve contrast and get 65k without decreasing brightness too much.
This has already been answered in this thread from a post to CKL's review.

MikeSRC

11-12-05, 12:55 PM

Mike thanks for your settings. I wonder if use of a filter would improve contrast as it did on the AE700?

I think a CC40R would be perfect, but I haven't been able to convince myself to spend the $150 to find out. I can't find anything but a B&H 77mm CC40R. Maybe I'll just go for an 81EF since there was so much success with it on the AE700.

rwestley

11-12-05, 02:28 PM

I did read about CKL's settings with the filter. I was hoping that someone would try the 81EF filter since there was so much success with that filter and the AE700. I don't have the Smart III or Colorfacts to do a proper test and I was hoping that someone else would be able to do it and post the results. It would be great if the 81Ef would work well because it costs a lot less than the CC40R filter.

bubbawilly

11-14-05, 12:14 AM

Trying to tweak some mild VB out of my new 900. When I go into the flicker menu, I can get the blue panel, but no red or green. When I toggle through the desk/ceiling color screens, blue comes up fine, but the red and green screens are black, with the small box on the bottom (or top) with the color and flicker value.

Is this normal? Are others getting all three solid color panels in the flicker adjust menu with no source playing?

I should add that in the main 900 thread, I got one reply saying it's normal, and one reply from an owner that gets all three color screens, leaving me nowhere.

bubbawilly

11-14-05, 01:01 AM

I take that back. I don't even get the blue panel. The only reason that I thought I was seeing the blue panel in the flicker menu was because I had the background color set to blue. After changing it to black, I now get no colors in the flicker menu, only the black background.

Is this normal??

rwestley

11-14-05, 06:35 AM

Ted, I sold my AE700 with the filter. I will be getting my AE900 this week and I may order another filter. I would agree that the settings should not be that different. I would hope that Mike or someone else that has access to colorfacts or Smart III could do the tests with that filter. CKL's work has been interesting but I would love to see the results with the 81Ef filter.

MikeSRC

11-14-05, 01:58 PM

I should be getting an 81EF filter on Wednesday. I won't be able to check it out until Thursday, but I'll report what I can then.

tvted

11-14-05, 02:11 PM

Ted, I sold my AE700 with the filter.

Oh - I wish I could do that - my friends prefer to spend time in cafes and pubs sipping and supping so *they* don't have any money. ;)

I would hope that Mike or someone else that has access to colorfacts or Smart III could do the tests with that filter. CKL's work has been interesting but I would love to see the results with the 81Ef filter.

Too bad you aren't close. The one thing that concerns me with the two filter approach is the lumens loss.

Enjoy your new toy. I look forward to your comments.

ted

Cam Man

11-14-05, 08:41 PM

Have any of you filter users considered gel filters? I ask because I work in the motion picture production world. We use glass filters as required on the camera, but on lights we shift Kelvin to that desired using gels designed to take the heat on the lights. They do fade with time, but you may be able to rig a few inches in front of the lens for longer life. I plan to try in front of a Panamorph.

The warming gels for converting Kelvin to lower temps are the CTO filters. I took a look at what filter would shift 9300K (Normal mode) to 6500K. It is 1/4 CTO. It is rated at 81% transmissive. It is a filter frequently used on lights to warm up lights, and I can tell you it doesn't reduce the light output by a lot.

You can buy a package with 12"x12" sheets of the entire CTO family for $24. You could then see if one gets closer to D65 and max output. You can check out atFilm Tools (http://store.yahoo.com/cinemasupplies/leedaytotunl.html)

I'm pulling the trigger on AE900 tomorrow. But somebody with their AE900 might take a look at trying this before me.

rwestley

11-14-05, 10:07 PM

Cam Man please post your settings on this thread after you get your AE900. It will be interesting to see how gel filters work and if you can get closer to 65k and get good blacks.

I hope someone with a colorfacts or a smart III will be able to do the tests with these filters. It would be great if they work since they are very cheap and are can be replaced.

Cam Man

11-14-05, 10:42 PM

Wilco.

What has happened to Smart III? Is there a source for it now?

rwestley

11-15-05, 07:19 AM

It seems that sales have been suspended at this time. I don't know the reason.
It might be possible to still rent one or borrow one from a member who owns one.

http://www.smartavtweaks.com/

CKL

11-15-05, 08:11 AM

When the lamp is driven to the maximum level, blue is normally higher than green while green is higher than red. In that case, I think the prefect filters are CC20R or CC30R plus 81B. Then all the RGB can be kept at their optimal levels.

rwestley

11-15-05, 08:36 AM

Thanks CKL for your post. Did you get a chance to try the CC20R or CC30R with the 81B. If you have could you post your settings. Would you still be using Dynamic? I don't have the test equipment so your settings would be a great starting point. Do you think that the results would be much better than using the 81C alone?

Cam Man

11-15-05, 09:53 AM

CKL,

So with the CCXXR filters you are subtracting green, and with the 81B subracting a small amount of blue. What is the filter factor of these (light loss)? What mode are you in with these filters, and what is your net light output?

In the world of lighting gels, that would be 1/2 Minus Green and 1/8CTO.

MikeSRC

11-15-05, 10:50 AM

The CCXXR filters cut both green and blue fairly equally, so they work well with a setting that has green and blue at equal levels. I tried a CC30R filter and reported the results on a previous page here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6400152&&#post6400152). It wasn't quite enough so I think CKL's on the right track with the 81B combo. I'm not one for using multiple filters though, so if the 81EF works as well with the AE900 as it did with the 700, it will be the easiest solution. Of course, it's always more fun to experiment. ;)

Cam Man

11-15-05, 11:19 AM

Hmm...CCXXR filters are magenta filters. Taking a look at the CIE Chromaticity Chart, maybe you can explain how magenta subracts an equal amount of blue. The 81 series is kind of the weaker cousins of the 85 series which is used to convert tungsten balanced film (3200K) to daylight (5500K). In terms of chromaticity, they don't subtract much green. Think of the two as two axis, 90 degrees out of phase; orange/blue (known as color balance or correction filters), and mangenta/green (known as color compensating filters). They cannot do any different given a stable, accurate light source.

But what works, works. You're right that it is great fun to experiment.

Does anyone know what the Kelvin is of the lamp? Is it a tungsten or discharge source? If it is a discharge source, then it must have a CRI of 90 to be considered anything close to spectrally smooth and accurate. For instance, a fluorescent tube is a discharge source. The normal variety may have a Kelvin of 3200, but a big green spike in it. It takes a magenta filter (known as "Minus Green") to correct it. It may only have a CRI of 75, not very accurate. A photographically balanced tube (which we use all the time in movies and tv studios) can be 3200, but the green spike will not be there. It will have a CRI of 90. Even at that, a discharge source has an uneven/incomplete spectrum of light.

If the pj lamp is a discharge source, then all bets are off on predicting the effect of filters due to the irregular spectrum it creates. You must then test and measure...as you are doing.

MikeSRC

11-15-05, 11:23 AM

The CCXXR filter is a red filter. There are magenta ones as well, but they are designated CCXXM. As you correctly stated, the magenta filter does not cut green and blue equally.

rwestley

11-15-05, 11:43 AM

I do hope that the 81EF is a good match as it worked on the AE700. Mike good luck in trying it with the 900.

tvted

11-15-05, 11:49 AM

UHP's are discharge - hence the need for a ballast.

The way the 81EF for the 700 was derived initially was a measuring of the clip points of each primary at BIAS and maximum to determine the gain vs spectrum of the UHP. This would provide a transmission graph for the PJ. When this was done with the 700 it was found that the 81EF provided a good inverse match for the determined measurements. This would allow for maximum balancing of the primaries with the spectrum provided by the UHP.

Ideally, barring a perfect D65 spectrum from the lamp, all PJ's would have an inbuilt filter.

Some background per SMART III:

http://www.smartavtweaks.com/index.html
http://home.pacbell.net/steve367/Intro.html

ted

Cam Man

11-15-05, 12:04 PM

Mike,

I see. Red being opposite cyan would explain your findings and choices. I stand corrected.

I also must retract the statement about equivalency of the CCXXR filters to Minus Green gel in a previous thread.

Tvted,

Nicely done! Thanks for that insight.

Cam Man

11-15-05, 12:08 PM

Does anyone know where to find a Smart III kit now? Maybe to rent?

rwestley

11-15-05, 12:23 PM

Cam Man you might want to call the number on the company that previously sold the Smart III or you might want to start a seperate thread asking to buy or rent it. I am sure there are a number of Smart III's available. I would be happy to share in the cost of purchase or rental. Another alternative would be to rent the Colorfacts which is much more expensive.

MikeSRC

11-15-05, 12:53 PM

I use OpticOne for calibrations, which is similar to Colorfacts, but actually uses a faster reading probe and is cheaper (still much more than Smart III though).

Cam Man

11-15-05, 02:59 PM

Thanks for the tips, guys. My old CP288 still serves well for CRT, but looking for upgrade that won't break the bank.

OpticOne is Cliff's, right?

DenisT

11-15-05, 03:37 PM

The cost of Colorfacts must be in the sofware. Ignore the following I got Colorfacts Profiler Plus -- including the Spyder2 colorimeter and software to calibrate my monitor to Photoshop standards, software to calibrate my color printer, and Photoshop Elements 3.0 all for less than $300 USD. It allows precise colormatching between digital camera, monitor, photo processing software, and printer. This is about as complicated as tuning a projector.

The Colorfacts Spyder TV (don't know if it will do PJs) is less than $200 but does less than colorfacts. The Spyder2 (for PCs), Spyder TV and Colorfacts colorimeters all look the same. Maybe they have no idea of the potential size of the market for their product.

Just looked at the calibration forum. I think they are saying wait for version of the TV that does projectors. But they were going back and forth brtween the Pro and TV versions.

MikeSRC

11-15-05, 03:44 PM

OpticOne is Cliff's, right?

Yes, he sells it now as the Progressive Labs CA-6X calibration system on progressivelabs.net

CKL

11-16-05, 02:37 AM

I had several Kodak gel CCxxR filters but all of them were damage. I've checked Tiffen glass CCXXR filters. They tell me it takes 6-8 weeks to ship such glass filter. I like CC20R because it won't cut too much light. I hope CC20R +81B won't cut more than 50% of luminance.

cvye

11-16-05, 09:33 AM

rwestley

11-16-05, 10:51 AM

I just received this email concering Spyder 2 and front projectors.

"Spyder2PRO calibrates front projectors.'

Spyder2PRO™ Studio 2.0
Complete calibration system for virtually all display and presentation methods

The ColorVision® Spyder2PRO Studio™ 2.0 now provides the digital professional with the ultimate tool for color consistency through virtually all display and presentation methods. Along with the traditional CRT, LCD and notebook calibration capabilities the new Spyder2PPRO Studio 2.0 calibration software also color corrects your multimedia front projector with the same precision, ease-of-use and affordability you have come to expect from the color experts at ColorVision.

Sankar

11-16-05, 01:13 PM

rwestley

11-16-05, 01:44 PM

I spoke to the people at Colorision and they claim that they are using new software that is much more accurate. They claim that the new software is more accurate and will work well with projectors. I was wondering how true their statements are. It is possible to upgrade software.

rwestley

11-16-05, 09:01 PM

Mike, I hope the 81EF filter works well with the AE900. It was great with the Ae700 and I would think that you might have success. Please post your results and settings when you can. Thanks again for your great posts.

rwestley

11-17-05, 10:59 AM

"I wonder how Brad Bissell's settings for the AE700 would work on the 900. He used the 81ef filter.

Many people have been waiting for my calibration, using Smart III, with the B&W KR6 81EF filter. Well, here it is. The following settings work with my AE700, but yours might be different, so use these only as a starting point.

Mode: Video
Lamp: High

Gamma High: 0
Gamma Mid: 0
Gamma Low: 0
Contrast R: 0
Contrast G: +5
Contrast B: +4
Bright R: -2
Bright G: -2
Bright B: -1

This produces an exact color temperature of 6500K across all IRE levels from 20-100. Below 20 it gets a bit cooler but that is as good as it gets with the calibration. You can reduce this by eye and lower the Blue Bright setting by one or two steps to remove the slight blue black.

After all of this I bet you are wondering what the contrast level is... Well, it is an amazing 2273:1

So it seems that the B&W KR6 81EF is the filter Cine4home.de used to calibrate the AE700.

I hope everyone finds this useful, and I strongly suggest the purchase of Smart III. Steve deserves a lot of credit for his calibration software and I don't want to take away sales with this info."

MikeSRC

11-17-05, 11:15 AM

My 81EF filter should be in the mail today, so I will hopefully post some results tonight.

rwestley

11-17-05, 03:13 PM

Mike, I hope you have success with this filter.

MikeSRC

11-17-05, 09:54 PM

Okay, I slapped the B&W KR6 81EF filter on and shifted to Video mode. The results are similar to what CKL got with his 81A+B combo. From the original levels of R=72%, G=105% and B=108% at a temp of 10,200, the filter dropped the temp to near 6500 and raised the red and blue to about 88 and 92% respectively. As you would expect, green was hardly affected, dropping to about 103.

After calibration, I could tell just by eye that the 0 IRE screen was darker than before. So, I took some On/Off CR readings and came up with 3550:1 in High lamp mode and 2990:1 in Low lamp. By comparison, I was at around 1450:1 in Cinema 1 mode. So, some very good news there. Since I have an phobia about running any projector in High lamp mode, I'll probably stick with Low lamp mode.

The lumen output with the filter on, even in High lamp mode was slightly less than Cinema 1 in Low lamp mode without the filter, but only about 50 lumens. I would not recommend the filter for use in a room without light control.

I have some preliminary settings, but I'll refrain from posting them until I have time to fine tune them. Basically, R and B gains (contrast) go up and G goes down. As you might expect with a warming filter, the offsets (bright) were different, with R and G increased slightly over B.

Well, it looks pretty good for the filter thus far. I still think a CC40R would provide a better balance, but it might cut the lumen output too much. I'm off ofr the weekend now. More to follow next week. :)

rwestley

11-18-05, 06:44 AM

Thanks Mike for your report on the 81EF filter. I have one on order and I am looking forward to see your settings as a starting point since I don't have calibration equipment.

I would agree it would not be smart to use a filter a non light controled room. I too have an obsession to use the low lamp mode and I hope that you can come up with settings that will still give enough light output with better blacks and contrast. I wonder how the filter would work in the Dynamic mode with calibration? I think CKL used the Dynamic mode with his filter reports. The CCR40 filter,as you pointed out, may reduce the light output too much and it is very expensive that is why I hope that the 81EF is a good balance. Looking forward to seeing your settings next week.

CKL

11-18-05, 07:52 AM

CKL

11-18-05, 08:04 AM

CKL,
Have you looked at the A900 at different refresh rates, such as 48 Hz, 50 Hz, 72 Hz, and 75 Hz? I'd like to see judder-free images for film souce, but also not notice the flicker which would be visible at 48/50. So 72/75 would be preferable. Thanks!

When I change refresh rate at Powerstrip, AE900 still detect as 60Hz. I guess its EDID lock the HTPC at 60Hz. Using the DVD player or scaler it can detect 50Hz from PAL disc. It has no problem to play back PAL disc. I have not tried 48Hz or 72Hz by Crystalio because it has no gen lock to do 2:2 or 3:3 pulldown.

suffolk112000

11-18-05, 08:14 AM

Ok, I am curious.
You guys that switched from the AE-700 and now own the AE-900, what kind of improvement are you seeing?
Is it only slightly better. I have heard that vertical banding is all but gone and the picture is much more sharp. Is this indeed true?
How much better are blacks? I am thinking there must be faults with the 900 by observing all the posts about using a filter like we did with the 700.

Craig

tvted

11-18-05, 11:08 AM

Ok, I am curious.

How much better are blacks? I am thinking there must be faults with the 900 by observing all the posts about using a filter like we did with the 700.

Craig

Craig,
Are you implying that somehow the filter is being used to correct inherent faults?

Given enough lumens, and a non 6500K light source like a UHP lamp, I would *always* use a filter to enhance a PJ's On/Off and allow me to make better, more balanced use of the primary amps.

In my never humble opinion a "Cinema" filter should be included with every PJ that utilises a non 6500K lamp.

If I've misunderstood what you are inferring, please accept my apologies.

ted

George Montemayor

11-18-05, 11:30 AM

CKL,
Have you looked at the A900 at different refresh rates, such as 48 Hz, 50 Hz, 72 Hz, and 75 Hz? I'd like to see judder-free images for film souce, but also not notice the flicker which would be visible at 48/50. So 72/75 would be preferable. Thanks!
I will be receiving my iScan VP30 hopefully in less than two weeks and will be testing 48Hz. 72/75Hz might be undesirable if the DI can only keep up with 60Hz refresh rates.

shelly

11-18-05, 12:21 PM

Today, I test AE900 again for a local magazine. The setup is 100 diagonal Stewart Grayhawk RS and Denon A1XV (5910) DVD player. I confess that this is the best setup for AE900. I still use its Normal mode and calibrate it with D65 standard. 5910 has very good noise reduction feature. The Grayhawk RS also can hide the video noise better than Studiotek. So both can minimize the weakness of high video noise from AE900. It shows dark black, decent contrast and excellent color (may be the best color rendering from digital projector). I think its performance with this setup looks like a DC2 DLP projector. Up to this moment, I still rank AE900 be the best among three D5 projectors.

CKL, you always seem to find the bes way to display/configure the pj's you test.
The Pan 900 would show itself best with this screen, dvd player and filters.

But do you still believe that it is the best of the 3 D5 pjs if one has a regular (mine is a Draper 1.3 gain) white screen, an older dvd player (mine is the Panasonic RP-91, 480p through component) and no filters?

Shelly

suffolk112000

11-18-05, 12:30 PM

Craig,
Are you implying that somehow the filter is being used to correct inherent faults?

Given enough lumens, and a non 6500K light source like a UHP lamp, I would *always* use a filter to enhance a PJ's On/Off and allow me to make better, more balanced use of the primary amps.

In my never humble opinion a "Cinema" filter should be included with every PJ that utilises a non 6500K lamp.

If I've misunderstood what you are inferring, please accept my apologies.

ted

Oh no... sorry. I guess my post could be read that way. ;)
I currently own the AE-700.
I have noted here that many are using the same filter on the AE-900 as what I and many are using for the 700. I am just wondering what the members who owned the AE-700 thought of the newer 900. What are the improvements?
I have heard the picture is sharper. What about the black levels? Etc... etc.
In your guesstimation, how much better is the 900 over the 700?
I have had some people say as much as 40% better than the AE-700.

Craig

Leggers

11-18-05, 12:31 PM

I see in CKL's review that the lumen output for each calibrated mode is

Cinema 1 Color Temp 0 High Lamp Iris On 384
Normal Color Temp -4 High Lamp Iris On 685
Normal Color Temp -4 Low Lamp Iris On 550

So what is the projector doing that makes the Normal Low Lamp mode higher lumens than the Cinema 1 High Lamp mode, and which one will give a potential longer lamp life or better viewing experience?

Thanks Greg.

rwestley

11-18-05, 01:25 PM

The mode you use will not make your lamp last any longer. You can obtain a longer lamp life by using the low setting. Many people prefer Cinema 1 or Cinema 2 for DVD's with the
filter settings other modes are used because of more light output.

Regarding the use of the 81EF filter on the AE900, MikeSRC has been doing some tests as reported in his earlier post. Many who owned the 700 used Brad Bissell's settings as a start. Regarding the differences between the 700 & 900

It seems that the 900 has less Virtical Banding out of the box.
1x1 mapping if you need it.
Somewhat better contrast and blacks

There are other small differences but the 700 tweaked is still a great projector.

n0s

11-18-05, 08:33 PM

Gonna pick up an AE900 on monday, seeing as itll only be about 9.5 feet from the screen projecting a 85" diagonal image i think i can use a filter to increase picture quality and still have a bright picture, what you guys reckon, should i go down the filter route, if so, which one?

rwestley

11-18-05, 10:07 PM

Wait for the filter settings that Mike will post next week. He has the calibration equipment and it should be a good starting point. You may have to make a few adjustments to meet your individual needs with the screen you use. At 85' you should have no problem with brightness and you should even be able to use the low lamp settings with the filter. Mike is testing the 81ef 77mm filter at this time. The filter should increase contrast this may or may not be necessary for you. I would try the projector without the filter first. I think you will be amazed.

J.T.L

11-19-05, 08:06 AM

I've fine tuned my settings for Cinema 1, which is the closest to having accurate greyscale right out of the box. This was using OpticOne software and probe, along with Avia Pro. These may differ slightly from projector to projector, but they should give you something to try.

Calibrated settings for the HDMI input, Cinema 1:

Gamma -
High= 0
Mid= -1
Low= 2

Contrast -
Red= 1
Green= -5
Blue= 1

Bright -
Red= 0
Green= 0
Blue= -1

In addition, I've been using the CCM function to fine tune red and green, which are oversaturated right out of the box. I'm still working on those, but once I get them done I'll post them. You'll need to use the color fields from a disk like Avia to set the target color. Again, this may vary from one unit to another, so it's just something to try.

I want to thank Mike for posting his settings. I only have Avia to calibrate my 900 with and truly don't understand how to effectively use the advanced menu settings. I have my 900 in a dedicated (100% light control) home theater with a 106" grey Elite fixed frame screen. In the last couple of days I punched in Mike's settings and immediately noticed a huge improvement in the overall colors and in the shadow detail of the projected images. I realize these number are probably still not optimal for my room but it is so nice to see that much of an image improvement after really enjoying the projector for close to a month with just my basic adjustments.

Thanks again.

Jim

rwestley

11-20-05, 06:49 AM

I wonder how the 81C and the 81Ef fliter results would differ.

CKL has post his settings for the 81C (He combined two filters=to 81C) and the 81Ef is also under test by Mike and a few others. Just speculation but I wonder if the results would differ that much? CKL used Dynamic for more light output for his tests. Mike is using Cinema 1 with the 81EF.

CKL's test again

http://www.avbuzz.com/audio-video/200510/ae900-ckl/index.htm

Can't wait for Mike's full results. I have an 81ef on order and I would love to be able to use this filter with the low lamp setting in a light controled room. I would also hope that CKL and others with proper calibration equipment do further tests with filter use at other settings. I think we are all looking for the best possible picture without loosing too much light.

I would also like to thank Mike again for his settings without the filter. They make a considerable improvement in contrast and blacks.

Jack Gilvey

11-20-05, 07:22 AM

Mike is using Cinema 1 with the 81EF.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6554127&&#post6554127

I thought he was using it with Video mode? I'm just now learning about such color filters, but I was under the impression that they mainly allowed the user to take advantage of the more dynamic modes of the projector while ameliorating their color deficiencies. I wouldn't think Cinema1 would benefit all that much, perhaps even suffer considerably with such "warming", since it's pretty close as-is. Of course, I could be completely misunderstanding all this, as is often the case.

I would also like to thank Mike again for his settings without the filter. They make a considerable improvement in contrast and blacks.

Agreed...good stuff.

Paul Klassen

11-20-05, 07:49 AM

I've fine tuned my settings for Cinema 1, which is the closest to having accurate greyscale right out of the box. This was using OpticOne software and probe, along with Avia Pro. These may differ slightly from projector to projector, but they should give you something to try.

Calibrated settings for the HDMI input, Cinema 1:

Gamma -
High= 0
Mid= -1
Low= 2

Contrast -
Red= 1
Green= -5
Blue= 1

Bright -
Red= 0
Green= 0
Blue= -1

In addition, I've been using the CCM function to fine tune red and green, which are oversaturated right out of the box. I'm still working on those, but once I get them done I'll post them. You'll need to use the color fields from a disk like Avia to set the target color. Again, this may vary from one unit to another, so it's just something to try.

Mike, just out of curiosity what did you end up setting the regular brightness and contrast at and was this with the lamp in high or low mode?

Also are you going to do the same type of caibration in Normal mode without filtering and if so could you please post these numbers as well.

Thanks for all the effort and info

Paul

MickB

11-20-05, 10:00 AM

There is one thing with the 900 that I am unsure of: Can the projector be mounted at the top of the screen height without having to use the lens shift? I do not remember seeing anyone post information about the mounting of the projector.

rwestley

11-20-05, 10:36 AM

MickB it depends where you place the shelf in relation to the screen height. My guess is that you will have to use the lens shift.

MikeSRC

11-20-05, 12:39 PM

Thanks all!

I'm out of town with limited internet access right now (God, dial-up sucks! :( ), so I'll get back to you all tomorrow. A couple of things:

I used Video with the filter based on the success with the AE700. I'll try Dynamic, but from my earlier measurements, it didn't have any more light output than Video. Video resulted in a better balance as well.

The calibration numbers for Cinema 1 are with low lamp.

Re: lens shift: neutral position is with the lens at the center of the screen, so to have the projector at the top of the screen, you'll have to use lens shift.

The 81EF filter greately reduces the blue level and blacks look blacker as a result, even better than the Cinema 1 setting calibrated.

Sankar

11-20-05, 12:54 PM

Mike,
Thanks for all your hard work and patience with this! :)

I do not know much about filters, so I'm wondering what the tradeoffs are between using 81EF and 81C. Is it just the light output that is impacted differently, or is there a major impact on temperature as well?

rwestley

11-21-05, 07:02 AM

I wonder how the calibrated settings would change with different screen types? I am using a matt white screen at this time. I know that the grey screen is much brighter but I have a small room and my screen size is about 90" Does anyone know of an inexpensive light meter to mesure foot lamberts?

MikeSRC

11-21-05, 12:49 PM

You might have some screen settings change with screens that are altering the color balance. For example, the GreyWolf pushes blue a little. Other settings should be the same though. BTW, just so everyone's aware, my measurements are all taken from the projector, not the screen.

rwestley

11-21-05, 02:11 PM

Mike glad you are back. I was hoping you would take your settings from the projector.

Can't wait for you the post your settings with the 81EF filter. I just received my filter today.
It would be great if you could post the settings that you get off the projector and than your setings with the Grey Wolf.

I have always liked a matt white screen because of the viewing angle drop off with grey screens. I do feel that the Grey Wolf screen would be better if you don't have a light controled room.

MikeSRC

11-21-05, 04:14 PM

I actually have the GreyWolf mounted so it can be pulled down over a same sized matte white screen, so it's easy to compare the two.

Regarding the "81" filters, I found the attached graph in a Tiffen catalog and added the color spectrum as close as I could. I think this helps show what the filters are doing.

rwestley

11-21-05, 05:45 PM

Mike, It is great that you can compare the matt white to the Grey Wolf. How do you think the Grey Wolf would work in a small light controlled room? Hope you have time soon to do some more testing with the filter. Thanks again for your great posts. Can't wait to see your settings with the filter.

Jack Gilvey

11-21-05, 05:49 PM

I'd like opinions on a GreyWolf with a ceiling-mounted 900...

gwlaw99

11-21-05, 06:00 PM

the retro reflective properties of the greywolf really only work if table mounted.

wwyjoe

11-21-05, 08:42 PM

dear all, i'm getting the ae900 soon, but a rookie when it comes to color calibration. Going through the forums, this is what i gathered:

MikeSRC settings (Cinema 1, HDMI, Low Lamp)
Gamma -
High= 0
Mid= -1
Low= +2

Contrast -
Red= +1
Green= -5
Blue= +1

Bright -
Red= 0
Green= 0
Blue= -1

CKL's settings (Cinema 1, High Lamp)
Gamma -
High = 0
Mid = 0
Low = 0

Contrast -
Red = -9
Green = -5
Blue = -3

Red = +2
Green = -5
Blue = -4

Which of these settings would work better for my 82' Firehawk? Room is fully dark. Thanks

Sankar

11-21-05, 09:28 PM

CKL's settings (Dynamic + filters, High Lamp)
Gamma -
High = +2
Mid = -1
Low = +3

Contrast -
Red = -2
Green = -11
Blue = -5

Red = -3
Green = -1
Blue = -8

------------------------------------------------

Now, what if one were using the component inputs and not the hdmi? I can understand that the contrast, brightness, color and tint may need adjusting, but is there any reason to believe that the grayscale settings would change?

Jack Gilvey

11-22-05, 07:02 AM

the retro reflective properties of the greywolf really only work if table mounted.
Yeah, I figured overall brightness would be down, which I wouldn't mind.

tvted

11-22-05, 11:12 AM

Now, what if one were using the component inputs and not the hdmi? I can understand that the contrast, brightness, color and tint may need adjusting, but is there any reason to believe that the grayscale settings would change?

As the HDMI input is expecting a HD input, it is expecting HD colour space - REC 709 - there is a better than good chance. HD colour space has a different weighting for the primaries than good old SD. Component would be expecting SD colour space - REC 601. Most upscaling sources currently do not do the colour space conversion for SD to HD so unless you are driving the HDMI input with a true HD source or a source that converts the colour space, there will be colour differences - likely in the greens.

Regardless of the above, *every* input is a different path to the primary amps and thus should ideally be individually calibrated.

ted

Pultzar

11-22-05, 08:02 PM

Sankar

11-22-05, 09:22 PM

Which filter are these settings for?

CKL's review (http://www.avbuzz.com/audio-video/200510/ae900-ckl/index.htm) says that its for the 81A and 81B filters together.

rwestley

11-23-05, 08:19 AM

I hope Mike gets a chance soon post his settings for the 81EF. I think it will be interesting to compare CKL's with the 81A and 81B (81C) filter. I am hoping that the 81EF produces close to 65k without too much light loss. It worked well on the AE700.

Scott B

11-23-05, 09:17 AM

The comparison will be even more interesting if they are for the same input.

Paul Klassen

11-23-05, 11:46 AM

Sankar

11-23-05, 12:11 PM

I posted this request in the main thread also ...

Could someone with the ability to calibrate grayscale also post their settings using the component inputs please ... for those of us who are staying with that input?
Thanks! :D

CKL

11-23-05, 12:55 PM

First off I would like to thank CKL for his work and calibration settings. My impressions of this unit with these setting are in the main 900 thread.

However I have a question about the brightness setting. In my setup I had to turn the brightness down to a - 6 value to get the black level correct using DVE grey step scale. Is this normal because of the difference in screens and or unit specific characteristics?

As far as picture quality the rest of the settings made the picture look stunning :)

Thanks CKL

Paul

You are welcome. Please be reminded that different dvd player has various gain which the setting of contrast is not the same. Another point need to take care is that the contrast will affect the color temp at 90-100IRE. When you raise the contrast above the default at zero, the offset from 6500K at the said level will be increase. So you raise the contrast at DVD player rather than AE900.

Jack Gilvey

11-23-05, 01:23 PM

Running my Oppo Via DVI @ 720p, I need to set contrast and brightness to around 7-8 to calibrate using THX Optimode...what's up with that?

tvted

11-23-05, 08:01 PM

Another point need to take care is that the contrast will affect the color temp at 90-100IRE. When you raise the contrast above the default at zero, the offset from 6500K at the said level will be increase. So you raise the contrast at DVD player rather than AE900.

CKL,

This I don't understand, basically Contrast (Master Gain) should simply increase the output of the primaries. If the unit has been greyscale calibrated and has good greyscale tracking why would increasing the output level affect the white point as you should be increasing the primaries equally with the Contrast control?

Setting Brightness (Master Black) and Contrast (Master White Level) at source runs counter to what has been discussed in this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=494606).

ted

CKL

11-23-05, 09:44 PM

When you push up the contrast, it actually raise the RGB gains at the same time. If the projector allows the user to adjust the contrast in a wide range, when you push the contrast to certain level, the red gain will reach its max level where it can't go up further. In that case, raising the contrast level only increases the blue and green gains. So it affects the color temp at 90-100IRE. Some projectors may limit the range of contrast for adjustment where the contrast can't reach the level that will affect the color temp.

wwyjoe

11-23-05, 10:39 PM

Sorry guys if this is a stupid question, but is a 81C filter the equivalent of adding 81A and 81B? Thanks

tvted

11-23-05, 11:23 PM

rwestley

11-24-05, 04:28 AM

WWJoe. The 81C according to CKL is the equivalent of the 81A & 81B filter. He did not have the 81C available.

dazbug

11-24-05, 07:50 AM

CKL

11-24-05, 10:08 PM

Gamm high/mid/low is used to tweak the gamma curve. If it is smooth and not far way from 2.2, just leave them at their default.

rwestley

11-25-05, 05:09 AM

MikeSRC

11-25-05, 11:06 AM

Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving. I'm going to be working with the 81EF this weekend and trying the different modes (I've just tried Video so far). Hopefully, I'll have some results posted by Sunday.

Sankar

11-25-05, 11:33 AM

Hello Mike,

If you can could you kindly see how far away the grayscale is on the component input once you calibrate to the HDMI?

Thanks!

Sankar

11-25-05, 12:00 PM

How do you calibrate the Contrast R G B and Brightness R G B ??
Can it be done via DVE and if so how and what patterns do you use?

Also what does the Gamma , high/mid/low settings do. does anyone touch these or lave them as o ?

thanks

Let me take a crack at this from a layman's perspective:

I think that Gamma is a measure of the growth of the output intensity from the PJ as the input levels are changed. If my understanding (based on reading at the forums etc) is correct, a gamma of 2.2 means that the output in footLamberts (FtL) is proportional to the 2.2 power of the input (volts, IRE).

OutPut (in FtL) = Constant * (Input volts or IRE level) ^ Gamma

Experts ... have I messed up?

One way to measure (and I am thinking of doing this one of these days) would be to feed in signals at various IRE levels (using Avia or iScan HD) and then measuring the light output with a light meter (I'm thinking of using a SpyderPro for this). Once you have the numbers, you could plot them and verify whether or not they grow at the appropriate rate.

Alternately, you could compute Gamma at the intermediate levels as

Gamma = (Log(Light Output at IRE1)-Log(Light Output at IRE0)) / (Log(IRE1)-Log(IRE0))

So if you were to measure at 10IRE, 20IRE, ..., 100IRE , then you could compute 9 intermediate Gamma values (between 10IRE and 20IRE, between 20IRE and 30IRE, etc).
For example, one of the Gammas would be
Gamma(40IRE to 50IRE) = (Log(FootLamberts at 50IRE)-Log(FootLamberts at 40IRE)) / (Log(50)-Log(40))

These should all be around 2.2. If not, I suppose that you could adjust the Gamma High, Gamma Mid and Gamma Low to bring them as close to 2.2 throughout the range.

CKL

11-25-05, 03:23 PM

CKL, have you had a chance to do any my work with filters? I wonder if the 81EF would be much different than the 81C? I also wonder how each filter would work with the normal setting in the low lamp mode. I don't have test equipment so it would be difficult for me to check.

From the specification of Lee filter:

81A 3400K to 3200K lower 200K color temp
81B 3500K to 3200K lower 300K color temp
81C 3600K to 3200K lower 400K color temp
81EF 3850K to 3200K lower 650K color temp

It shows that 81A+81B is in between 81C and 81EF. The advantage of 81C is that it cut less lumen than 81EF. If you want to cut more blue, you can try 85 filter.

rwestley

11-25-05, 03:38 PM

Thanks CKL for your post about filters. I own an 81EF and I plan to try it soon. Any suggestions on settings in comparision to the 81C. I might also try to get a 81C and try it. I want to loose as little light output as possible.

Thanks

CKL

11-26-05, 10:52 AM

81EF cut more blue than 81A+81B. So you can try to raise the contrast blue a bit more than my settings for 81A+81B. You better use AVIA grayscale ramp to track the color temp.

rwestley

11-26-05, 07:53 PM

CKL, Thanks for the information and the help.

CKL

11-27-05, 07:02 AM

To maximize the contrast (dynamic) and tweak with filter, I think the first step is to find the clipping point of each RGB level, and then find a suitable filter to reduce the blue and green level to meet D65 so that it doesn't need to reduce RGB levels, and keep all of them at the maximum levels. I will apply this method for tweaking HC3000 later.

rwestley

11-27-05, 11:58 AM

CKl thanks again, I am hoping to get a 81c Filter and try your settings. I am also waiting for Mike SRC to post his findings with the 81EF filter.

Jack Gilvey

11-27-05, 12:13 PM

Been playing a bit with the "dynamic" setting. While the color is really sick-looking, I can't wait try a filter that can cure the color while taking advantage of the dynamics of the image. Same for "normal"...

tvted

11-27-05, 12:18 PM

MikeSRC

11-27-05, 12:33 PM

I should have some results this evening. So far, the Normal setting is working well. I was having a much harder time with Dynamic, but I'll try starting with CKL's settings and see how that goes. The 81C may be the best choice of blue reduction without losing as much light as the EF. In a light-controlled room (especially with the GreyWolf), the EF is still fine, maybe slightly below the Cinema 1 setting with no filter in light output.

Jack Gilvey

11-27-05, 12:34 PM

If Dynamic is anything like the 700, Gamma is whack.

Ahh. Any chance calibration/lens could bring it in line? Or is that "hyper-contrasty" image I see a result of the wacked gamma?

rwestley

11-27-05, 03:12 PM

Mike, could you post the results with both the Grey Wolf and your matt white screen.

I have a light controlled room and I own a matt white screen. It would be somewhat difficult to change and I would like to use it if possible with the filter. Any help will be appreciated. I could get an 81C if the 81EF will result in too much light loss.

tvted

11-27-05, 07:38 PM

Ahh. Any chance calibration/lens could bring it in line? Or is that "hyper-contrasty" image I see a result of the wacked gamma?

Looks like it to me - I don't undertand how Gain and Bias alone would be able to achieve that look.

I never rose to the challenge of playing with it, I just looked at it, thought the gamma curve was not linear - though not like film which has an gentle 'S' style curve with a distinct "shoulder" and "toe" - much of the reason that film doesn't "blow out" or "clamp" like video. I just hated it and stayed clear, thinking it was more work than necessary as Brad Bissels work with the Video mode was fine for me. Smart III takes time and I just didn't think it was worth it.

Sorry, I'm so biased, it might be better to take what I say with a good dose of seasoning.

ted

tvted

11-27-05, 07:40 PM

rwestley

11-27-05, 10:13 PM

Ted, it is a 1.0 gain screen. I was previously in the theatre business and I got mine from a friend who manufactures screens for motion picture theatres. I have tried to convince him to get in to the home theatre business but he does not seem interested. His company manufactures screens for many of the large theatre chains. They also make a high gain screen but I am concerned about hot spots and the side drop off. I wonder if it would be worth it to get the 1.4 gain screen. A new bulb would cost less and might be a better alternative. I have also been hearing great things about the low cost Grey Wolf screen. People have removed it from the case and made it in to a DIY fixed screen.

tvted

11-27-05, 11:09 PM

I wonder if it would be worth it to get the 1.4 gain screen. A new bulb would cost less and might be a better alternative. I have also been hearing great things about the low cost Grey Wolf screen. People have removed it from the case and made it in to a DIY fixed screen.

I consider it a long term investment - certainly longer than the 700 - C2Fine is mine. :) I'm also heavily filtered as you know. Plus I want big and need 2.35 for my CH setup. Looking at the Carada.

thanks for your input,
ted

rwestley

11-28-05, 06:25 AM

As a long term investment the CARADA is probably a great purchase for you. 1.4 on a white screen should help with the filtered 700. If you decide to get it please post your results.

MikeSRC

11-28-05, 11:26 AM

Here are some settings with the 81EF filter and AE900 in Normal mode, color temp at 0 and low lamp. Readings taken from the projector, so they should work with most screens that do not alter the color balance:

Gamma
High: 0
Med: 0
Low: 5

Contrast
R: -4
G: -9
B: -6

Bright
R: 1
G: 2
B: -2

I also tried Dynamic, starting with CKL's settings and had to adjust the Cont and Bright RGBs a few notches. The problem is that I couldn't bring gamma under acceptible control and the output wasn't much different from Normal. With Normal, gamma tracking was still not as controlled as I'd like, but acceptible. Overall, I think CKL's 81C filter provides the best compromise of warming effect and not too much reduction of lumen output. While the 81EF's light output is enough for use with a positive gain screen or in completely controlled light conditions, it's reduced from the Cinema 1 setting, which is too dark for some.

I have some settings for the Video mode as well that I'll get to later today.

rwestley

11-28-05, 01:05 PM

Mike, thanks for posting your settings. I will try them this evening. I would love to find an inexpensive 81C filter to try.

Thanks again.

MikeSRC

11-28-05, 01:44 PM

Try getting a single coated 67mm Hoya with a 67-to-77 adapter ring at 2filter.com.

rwestley

11-28-05, 02:32 PM

Thanks again for your advise. I just orderded the 67c filter with the 77 adapter ring. When I get it I will try your settings and CKL's settings.

rboster

11-28-05, 03:15 PM

Rwestly:

You might also try ebay for good filter deals. I have an 81C and CKL's settings. I decided to order a slightly used 81ef and try Mike's settings too....just to experiment between the two.

BTW: Thanks Mike for all your hard work and sharing the results with us!!! I appreciate it.

Ron

DenisT

11-28-05, 04:12 PM

Smart III Calibration of AE 900

I calibrated my AE 900 with the Smart III calibration system. It consists of a light meter with coloured filters and a spreadsheet. I first set brightness, contrast, colour and tint with Avia. I then measured lux at IRE 0 to 100 with each of the coloured filters and entered the data in a spreadsheet. Details of the method can be found at http://smartavtweaks.com/.

I did 5 runs with tweaking between each run. Final settings and results are shown below and in the appended jpg files. After the fifth run colour temp was right on about 6500 except at IRE 0 (see colour temp.jpg). This was not a problem when viewing. I did not notice that blacks were cold. Gamma averaged 2.16 with a dip at IRE 60 (see gamma.jpg). The dip had been greater but decreasing the mid-gamma fixed it. Colour balance was good between IRE 30 and 90 (see colour balance.jpg). There was some spread between IRE 0 and 20, but this was not noticeable when viewing. The red dip at IR 100 and there was a very slight greenish/bluish tinge at high IRE's that was distracting at higher IRE's. I have illustrated this bluish tinge in IRE 70 to 100,jpg. This figure was made in Corel Draw and compares theoretical IDEAL grey at IRE 70 to 100 with measured grey at IRE 70 to 100 on the calibrated AE 900. This figure exaggerates the bluish tinge especially at IRE 100. I will do a bit more measuring and tweaking and will set a slightly warm colour temp, which I find preferable to a slightly cold temp. Contrast was between 1600 (from colour measurements) and 2400 (light at 100 IRE vs 0 IRE) with 579 Lumens after calibration in low light mode.

The picture -- WOW. I find the blacks, contrast and picture just phenomenal. With tweaking and the smooth screen, the picture is very film like. Well, theoretical film like -- this PJ has much better PQ than I see in most theatres. I do not see the need for a filter.

I''ll just fiddle with the colour temp and RGB contrast and brightness to get gamma 2.2 and colour temp near 6500 but with red as the very slightly dominant colour.

I only did normal mode as I do not like the projector making its own settings. I find the kinds of settings other than normal akin to the much-maligned Hall, Concert etc. sound modes found in AVR's. I found Cinema 1 too dim and did not bother with it.

About 40 hours on lamp
Warm up about 1 hour prior to testing
Panasonic AE 900
Lamp Low
Picture Normal
Contrast 4
Brightness 1
Colour -7
Tint 1
Sharpness -4
Colour Temp -3
Dynamc Iris on
Noise Reduction on
Gamma High 0
Gamma Mid -3
Gamma Low 0
Contrast Red 3
Contrast Green 1
Contrast Blue -1
Bightness Red 0
Brightness Green 0
Brightness Blue 0

Panasonic S77 DVD
Picture Mode User
Contrast 0
Brightness 0
Sharpness -7
Color 0
Gamma 0
Depth Enhancer 0
MPEG DNR 0
3DNR 0
Video Output 720p
Transfer Mode Auto 2
HDMI Colour Space YCbCr 444

Smart III Results
Red Contrast Ratio 1387
Green Contrast Ratio 1629
Blue Contrast Ratio 976
Combined Contrast Ratio 1427
Calculated Gamma 2.16 Range 1.9 to 2.3
Target Gamma 2.2
Color Temperature About 6500 (range 6250 - 6750 at IRE 10 to 100)
Lumens 579
Lux IRE 100 173
Lux IRE 0 0.07
Contrast IRE 100/IRE 0 2471

DenisT

11-28-05, 04:14 PM

Here is the last attachment for the previous post

MikeSRC

11-28-05, 04:55 PM

Thanks for the report and the settings. Sounds like you have it nicely dialed in. :)

I only did normal mode as I do not like the projector making its own settings.

Well, they're all making their own settings. You can get to where you want with any of the modes, it just takes more adjustment to get there. For those without calibration equipment, Cinema 1 has the most accurate greyscale and gamma using the default menu positions.

I do not see the need for a filter.

It's not necessary for good PQ, but if you want to double your contrast ratio measurements, it is. ;)

rwestley

11-28-05, 05:52 PM

I just tried Mike's settings with the 81EF filter. The blacks and contrast are greatly improved.
The picture is still very bright even using the low lamp mode. I have my HT in a room that is light controlled and the walls are dark blue. The screen size is 92." I would think that with a larger screen it might be better to use the 81C or 81A +B combo that CKL used. It might be possible to get a little more light output with these filters. As Mike and CKL have stated the filter doubles your contrast ratio. I have also tried other posted tweak settings and have saved them in the memory. The picture is good without the filter but if you want to see the difference try a film with dark blacks. I tried three films with and without the filter.

Opening scenes of Star Wars Revenge of the Sith,
Lost in Translation (opening)
Sin City.

There is a big difference in contrast and blacks for me. with the use of the filter. I will be picking up a 81c filter to compare the results with the 81EF.
I tried to purchase a Smart III but they are no longer for sale.

I would also like to thank Denis for his detailed post. I would love to see his settings with the use of a filter calibrated with a Smart III.

JariT

11-29-05, 06:06 AM

Goodday people.

I have been through 3 ae900 in couple days.
First one had clear problems with green panel. I dont think it was VB, more like wider vertical fields of alternating shades throughout the picture.
2nd and 3rd had no such problems. Very slight VB, that could be tweaked out with panel adjustment. 1st and 2nd unit were little off with panel convergence, 3rd is just about perfect. None had stuck pixels that I noticed.

Someone mentioned convergence problems when using lens shift joystick. It seems simple zoom also causes uniform convergence problems the closer you get to screen edges, though I guess that can be expected. Just makes me want to fine tune the distance to the screen and zoom for optimum convergence :D

MikeSRC suggested 81C filter. Has anyone actually calibrated using that one, since its not the same as 81A + 81B CKL used? Sounds like 81C would be good for simplicity if we could get the calibration values for that one ;)

rwestley

11-30-05, 09:12 AM

I spent a little more time last night using Mike's settings with the 81EF filter. I know believe that the light output may be cut a little too much using the low lamp settings. I plan to try the 81C when it arrives and compare it to the 81EF. If anyone know of a used Smart III for sale let me know. I would love to purchase a inexpensive calibration tool.

MikeSRC

11-30-05, 11:13 AM

The EF cuts light output equal to a combination of B and C, where the C is only equal to an A plus B. So, using a C should equal CKLs light output with an A and B. The downside is that it doen't reduce blue as much as an A and B. The EF's light reduction is not as big of a problem with the GreyWolf.

After playing around with the Video setting and the 81EF, I'm sticking with the Normal mode as it seems to fit the properties of the filter better. Because the filter's affect is non-linear, you get some RGB variations in the mid-range IRE levels that can't be dialed out. The 81C may be better in that regard as well as it has less of an effect. I've happy with the CR improvement of the EF, but I might just go back to trying a CCR filter. Maybe I'll just ask everyone to give me filters for Xmas. ;)

rwestley

11-30-05, 02:09 PM

Mike, I will be getting a 81A & 81B 67mm filters with a step down ring. I also may have access to a 81C 77mm filter. If you are interested in trying these filters with your calibration equipment PM me and I will be happy to send them to you to try.

Thanks again for your tests.

Since I have a fixed matt white screen I hope that I can make one of these work without going the Grey Wolf route. It would require a lot of work for me to make changes.

darinp2

11-30-05, 02:21 PM

Because the filter's affect is non-linear...,
What do you mean by this? A filter can block different wavelengths of light at different amounts, but it sounds like you are saying that it will block different percentages of the primaries at different IRE levels (or different light intensity levels). That sounds more like a problem with accuracy of the readings taken than with the filter to me, given that a filter should block the same percentage of the photons at a particular wavelength whether there are more of them or less of them (at least at the intensity levels we are discussing). But maybe I'm not following what you mean.

--Darin

MikeSRC

11-30-05, 04:11 PM

But maybe I'm not following what you mean.

--Darin

I'm probably not saying it right. :D

Maybe it's the way the projector's gains and offsets work with the different modes, but I didn't notice this without the filter. Basically if you have a good RGB balance in the lower and upper IRE ranges, it's off significantly in the midrange (ie: 50-60 IRE), with an increase in red. CKL's graph with the 81A and B filters below tends to show what I'm talking about, although it's more dramatic with my 81EF. I'm open to any suggestions.

http://www.avbuzz.com/audio-video/200510/ae900-ckl/text05figure05_7.jpg

While the above graph looks pretty flat, the divisions are 10% each, so it's a little more extreme than it appears.

rwestley

11-30-05, 04:20 PM

I just received an 81B & 81A 67mm filters and a 77mm step up ring from 2filters com. I tried CKL's settings using Dynamic and there is quite a bit less light loss than with the 81Ef filter.

I quickly tried my Oppo and the THX setup to quickly check for contrast. I will test with DVE later.

I than tried the opening scenes in Sin City and Lost in Translation. They both use dark blacks and high contrast. I noticed more light output (as I expected) with the 81a & B filters than with the 81EF. The contrast was great and one could really see improved details. I think that with a matt white screen the 81a+B or 81C works better than a 81EF.

The 81EF could be fine with the Grey Wolf because of the increased contrast from the grey screen as Mike has pointed out.

I hope to also borrow a 81C filter from a photographer friend to compare it to the 81a & 81b. I don't expect to see much difference.

Regarding Mike's comment about not liking to use two filters together. With the step up ring and Hoya filters there does not seem to be a problem. The Hoya filters both screw into each other and they fit into the ring which fits the 77 thread on the projector. For me they seem fine.

Again I would like to thank CKl, Mike and others for their posts. I hope that over time we will be able to gain an even bigger improvement with the filters and the AE900. Keep the posts and suggestions coming.

rboster

11-30-05, 05:13 PM

rwestley:

Thanks for your observations (And a big shout out to CKL and Mike for their settings). I have been using the 81C filter with CKL's settings on a Cinema Vision screen material since last weekend (only about 4 hrs of viewing). I just ordered a 81ef and will try Mike's settings too. It's great to hear your feedback in this quest

Ron

rwestley

12-01-05, 09:09 AM

CKL & Mike, A friend will be lending me a 81c filter. Any suggestions for turning down the blue in comparision to the 81A + B. I want to compare the two filter options.

MikeSRC

12-01-05, 11:08 AM

Based on CKL's post a few pages back, the 81C will cut slightly less blue than the A & B combined, so you may need to reduce the B gains and offsets slightly. I think you probably get a better result with the A & B, but the C is an attempt to do it with a single filter.

rwestley

12-01-05, 12:41 PM

Mike, I think your are correct. With the 67mm 81A & B and the adaptor that I have things look great. I don't think it is worth it for me to try to go with the single filter.

htimst

12-01-05, 04:09 PM

rboster

12-01-05, 04:33 PM

I've got a matt white screen, 106" and am going to try the 81C filter route. Is THIS (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=11058&is=REG&addedTroughType=search) the filter that I should be using?

Thanks!

That is correct. You would use CKL's settings with this filter. Or you could buy the 81ef 77mm filter and use Mike's settings. I found a couple of good deals on ebay for used filters of the same size and type. That is another option. Though I bought from the retailer you linked to for that same filter.

Ron

BTW: Some may find the comments on this thread interesting...debates calibrations of projectors.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=610845

htimst

12-01-05, 05:19 PM

Thanks for the eBay tip. I did find some hoya filters for 81A,B,C that can be used together. That would give me more options to experiement with all of the people that have done the hard part of the job.

Thanks to all for setting!

rwestley

12-01-05, 05:39 PM

Mike made a suggestion in a previous post that to save money one could use 67mm filters with a 77mm step-up ring. I took his advise. There is a large savings between 67 &77mm filters. The 67mm with the ring will work fine and I have seen a few 67 81a B & C filters on Ebay at very low prices. So far I like the 81A+81B using CKL's settings for my matt white screen. The 81ef should work fine with a high contrast screen. Getting the ring and several low cost filters will as htimst stated give more chance for experimentation. The issue for me is to get the most accurate colors with the best CR.

Sankar

12-03-05, 05:00 PM

Thanks for the tips, guys. My old CP288 still serves well for CRT, but looking for upgrade that won't break the bank.

OpticOne is Cliff's, right?

Won't the CP288 work with lcd digital projectors for some reason?

MikeSRC

12-05-05, 11:53 AM

rwestley

12-05-05, 02:49 PM

If anyone would like to experiment with filters The Filter Connection at www.2filter.com has low cost Sunpak 81a & 81B 67mm filters sold together as a bundle at a very low cost. The total cost for the two filters and the stepup ring will only be about $30. 67mm with the 77mm stepup ring will work fine with the AE900 and there will be a big savings over 77mm filters.

It is a great low cost deal for tweakers. I don't think I am violating the rules about price since Sunpak filters are low cost alternatives and these are the MSP prices. The Filter Connection also offers free shipping. I spoke to John the owner and he said these filters should be fine for projection since they are solid glass, but not multicoated. He does not recommend Tiffen filters for projection use since Tiffen puts a piece of gel betwen the glass and it can fade. He told me that since the Sunpak filters from Japan are made of solid glass there should be no problem.

Mike, I am looking forward to your tests with th 81a and 81b filters. The 81ef did cut light output quite a bit with a matt white screen. I also do not want to use the high lamp mode. The 81a and 81b are much better using CKl's settings. I still think that there might be room for some improvement. Let us know how things go.

MikeSRC

12-05-05, 03:46 PM

That's good to know. I'm getting some Hoya ones, which are always good as well. I've always had good luck with 2filter. Their cleaning fluid, when used with lens tissues, works great and leaves no residue on your projector lens or filters. It's been recommended in the past on this forum and I've been using it for over a year now.

rwestley

12-05-05, 03:52 PM

Mike, I agree Hoya are also great filters. I have an 81C 77mm filter that a friend gave me. If you are interested in testing it I would be happy to send it to you. I am now using the 81a & 81B. PM me if you are interested in trying the 81C.

minnegopher

12-05-05, 04:23 PM

I've been watching this topic develop; now, I'm ready to filter my AE900. I was going to place an order for an 81A/B combo, but before I do, I have a question. With a Graywolf screen (106"), should I use a 81A+B, 81C, or an 81EF filter? What's the consensus? Are most of you using a matte white screen? I've seen mention of using an 81EF on a "high contrast" screen, but is there an advantage of using it over the other filter types?

Which filter(s) provides the best results on a Graywolf, with the least compromise? (I'm not really enthusiastic about trading away many of my precious lumens.)

Thanks!
minnegopher

rwestley

12-05-05, 04:28 PM

I would guess that the 81A+B should work great on the GrayWolf screen. Mike uses a Graywolf and he stated that "the light output is cut quite a bit with the EF." I am using the 81A+B combo with a matte white screen and it is much brighter than the 81Ef. I am also using CKL's settings with the Dynamic mode. The 81C might also be a good single filter alternative. I am looking forward to see Mike's results with the 81A+B combo. I think that there might be room for still room for some small improvement.

MikeSRC

12-05-05, 04:31 PM

I've been using the 81EF filter with both a GreyWolf and matte white screen. It's fine with the GreyWolf and a little dark with the matte white. I'm about to try the A+B combo next.

rwestley, thanks for the offer. Let me see how it goes with the A+B combo first. Since the C allows for the same light output but doesn't cut as much of the blue as the A+B, I think it's probably better to go with either the EF or A+B for the best results.

rwestley

12-05-05, 04:53 PM

Mike, Hope your tests with the A+B goes well. The EF is a little to dark for me with a matte white screen. I like to use the low lamp mode. It will be great to see what you think of the A+B combo in relation to the EF. I hope that the A+B combo tests well. If it does it will provide a great low cost filter alternative.

Thanks again for all your great work.

Sankar

12-05-05, 06:30 PM

Time to revive this thread. While I've been enjoying the picture with the 81EF filter, it does cut the lumen output quite a bit, especially since I don't want to use the high lamp mode. Got a deal on some used filters so I have 81A and B filters on the way now. I'll start with CKL's setting and see how they work with my AE900.

For those who were asking about settings for the component input, I'm not ignoring you. I just don't have a component run to the projector right now.

Thanks for all your work Mike! I will keep an eager lookout for component runs if you get one :)

I bought an 81C sometime back and find that indeed it does not cut that much blue and the image using ckl's adjustments (and a component input) for 81A+B do indeed give too much blue (even to the naked eye). I've gone back to Cinema 1 till more info comes out.

Incidently, I have a chance to buy a Sencore CP288 at a reasonable price --- can anyone explain why this unit works with crt PJs and not with lcd/dlp? I would've thought that when one measures the light from either the PJ or reflected from the screen, the technology of how the white light is generated is irrelevant.

CostasEAR

12-06-05, 01:03 PM

I just upgraded from 700 to 900 and i keep on using the same good old filter, 81EF. (B&W KR6 77mm).

The 900 panny is sure a step forwards, in all aspects, but really i was not shocked by the difference...

Well, i keep on reading from you that this filter is too dark.
But this should be your target! This projector is not the best in blacks, and if you really want to have deep black levels you have to cut the light over there!
And after all there is enough light even for big screens!

The black level is what really matters in cinema!

My other equipment is:

DVD player: OPPO (HDMI to HDMI cable with HDMI-DVI adapter).
Screen Da-lite 92' hi-contrast matt white.

my settings:

oppo (all other defaults):
-brightness -2 (helps hiding the macrovision effect and less calibrating from the panny)
-CSS off
-noise reduction off

panny (all other defaults):
picture dynamic, lamp low
contrast +2
colour temp -1 (some might like better -2)
NR off
GH +1
GM 0
GL +6 (some might like better +7)
CR 0
CG -6
CB 0
BR -3
BG 0
BB -4

With these settings i have the best contrast and the more light from all other fine settings i read in here.
Try them and let me know your opinion.

But i also have a question:
In the panny 700 with 2000:1 contrast ratio, some guys measured more than 2300:1 contrast!
In the new panny 900, with 5500:1 contrast ratio, why don't we have really high numbers of measured contrast ratio? (i mean 2300-2700:1 is not a good measurement, don't you agree?)

I suppose we can have better than 4500:1 contrast ratio (i even wish better than 5500:1), but i am still looking for the settings...

MikeSRC

12-06-05, 01:42 PM

Well, i keep on reading from you that this filter is too dark.
But this should be your target!

Well, not completely. If that were the case, then you would simply get an ND8 filter and cut the light output even more. This, however, would not improve CR, which is the target. Since the projector lamp is deficient in red (or as Steve S says, think of it as having an abundance or blue and green), the idea is to increase the On/Off CR by achiving a balance between the RGB levels, without cutting the lumen output too much.

But i also have a question:
In the panny 700 with 2000:1 contrast ratio, some guys measured more than 2300:1 contrast!
In the new panny 900, with 5500:1 contrast ratio, why don't we have really high numbers of measured contrast ratio? (i mean 2300-2700:1 is not a good measurement, don't you agree?)

I suppose we can have better than 4500:1 contrast ratio (i even wish better than 5500:1), but i am still looking for the settings...

On/Off CR measurements often differ wildly depending on who's taking them, under what conditions, using what equipment. The best way to compare such measurements are to look at a number of ones done by the same person (like Cine4Home or CKL). This gives you a basis for comparison between projectors

rwestley

12-06-05, 02:30 PM

Mike, when you get the 81a & 81B filters I hope you will try them in the Normal mode and compare your results with CKL's settings in the Dynamic mode. It will be interesting to see a comparison between different results and different filters.

CostasEAR

12-07-05, 03:34 AM

MikeSRC you are right, i tryed ND's 1 year ago and i got no CR improvement at all, just better black levels but with a dark picture.

Of course the target is to improve CR, but in combination with deeper blacks this gets even better...

Jack Gilvey

12-07-05, 09:00 AM

I wish you maniacs would decide on a damn filter so I can buy one. ;) Running a 7' wide 2.35:1 matte white screen in a light-controlled room. Best choice so far? 81EF/Normal? Not so concerned about lumens, even Cinema1 right now with Mike's settings seems a little bright at times. Used to use an ND2 on my 4805.

rwestley

12-07-05, 09:10 AM

Jack, have a little more patience. Mike will be getting a 81a and 81b to test this week. I am sure he will post his results with these filters very soon. I have tried both the 81ef using Mike's settings and the 81A + 81B using CKL's settings. I like the increased lumens with the 81A + 81B combo. Since I have both filters I am waiting for Mike's report so I can make another comparision. It is possible to get a 81A & 81B 67mm combo with an stepup ring for a very low price. See post on previous page.

Jack Gilvey

12-07-05, 11:53 AM

Jack, have a little more patience.
I know, I know...just bustin' chops. I appreciate the efforts, links, and information!