Optoma H72 [Text View] - Page 4

eclipse98

02-14-06, 03:13 PM

I think that when you see 1080p you won't think quite as highly as 720p. :)

At correct HD positioning the difference is 40 pixels per degree vs 60. Meaning with 20/20 vision you shouldn't be able to see the pixel structure as much (ignoring for the moment the ability to see thin horizontal and verticle lines).

Or you get to sit closer for a bigger theater feel.

HD (1080p) is a fairly minimal spec for replicating the theater. Its the equivalent of sitting in the last row of the theater.

Nigel

So what do you think is a better idea: go with cheaper HD72 and save over 1K towards the purchase of a new 1080 PJ (will come handy when they become 2-3K 2-3 years from now) or go for H78 and wait until 3 chip 1080 will become 3K some 4-5 years from now. Am I being too optimistic on 1080 prices ?

I think my initial statement of having no need to upgrade to 1080 should I buy H78 is probably far too optimistic. One should always remember that 1080P is where everything is moving these days. With HD DVD/Blue Ray problems hopefully settled by then I really see no reason to downscale 1080 image to 720 and introduce possible video artifacts. It's better stay native 1080 :)

Thanks, Davie.

fleaman

02-14-06, 03:19 PM

So what do you think is a better idea: go with cheaper HD72 and save over 1K towards the purchase of a new 1080 PJ (will come handy when they become 2-3K 2-3 years from now) or go for H78 and wait until 3 chip 1080 will become 3K some 4-5 years from now. Am I being too optimistic on 1080 prices ?

I think my initial statement of having no need to upgrade to 1080 should I buy H78 is probably far too optimistic. One should always remember that 1080P is where everything is moving these days. With HD DVD/Blue Ray problems hopefully settled by then I really see no reason to downscale 1080 image to 720 and introduce possible video artifacts. It's better stay native 1080 :)

Thanks, Davie.

What do you have now?

I have an H31 and I've decided against the HD72 for now (what am I doing here :rolleyes: ), and it's not for the offset issues, which actually work in my favor.

From some of the reviews/comments, it doesn't look like the HD72 will be a big step up for me. For that I think I would take the H78DC3 plunge if I had to make a decision today. Yeah, the HD72 has a resolution advantage over the H31, but beyond that, it doesn't seem to be much of an improvement. I'm 2 screen widths away and have a small screen at the moment (small room with tall ceilings!). For now the H31 fits the bill, but that H78DC3 is in my headlights somewhere down the road. I just hope there are still some around before they run out....

Fleaman

nigel_ht

02-14-06, 03:36 PM

You must visit some teeny tiny theaters. :D I find that typical theaters these days have a screen of about 30' - 32' wide and depth of about 80' to 90'. Sitting in the last row of one of these would be the equivelent of sitting away from the screen 2.5 - 3 times the screen width. Why bother?

Also, in terms of replicating the theater, your statement that 1080P is a minimal spec is a bit elitist. We are talking about typical "home theater" applications here, not 4K digital cinema applications.

Its not elitist, its a design goal.

That you can't reach the design goal at this pricepoint TODAY doesn't mean that we wont be able to do so in the future.

With respect to the theaters it's based on the THX spec for theaters vs HD specs. The HD specs (30 degrees) are in between the recommended minimum viewing angle (36 degrees) and the absolute minimum (to get THX status) which is 26 degrees. The field of view is an important aspect of creating that cinema feel.

The 60 PPD is based on 20/20 visual acuity.

So yes, its a minimal spec for your typical home theater application. I tend to want to sit closer than the rearmost row. I find the immersion factor is increased when I have to move my eyes around to see the entire action. I agree with your statement on sitting 2.5 to 3 times screen width...which is why I think 480p projectors to be very sub-optimal and the more resolution the better. I sit at 1.5x and would prefer to sit at 1x on my 106" screen.

As far as your theater it depends on whether or not they are THX certified.

Nigel

eclipse98

02-14-06, 03:41 PM

With all the talk of white levels, I must say that as I sat tonight watching the Olympics (after my minor tweak), I had no feelings of regret whatsoever over buying the HD72. On certain shots my 96" screen literally looked like a giant plasma screen, and what more could you want than that! It's not perfect, but it's well worth $2,000 for sure. I can't say for certain if it's the best sub $2,000 projector on the market, but I couldn't imagine getting better performance for the money. I still haven't had a chance to do a side by side with my friend's new Z4 but hopefully we'll do that this weekend. Cheers! :)

Myapplebuddy, nice to hear that white level "problem" can be tweaked. I was getting a little discouraged after you yesterday's "crushed whites" comments. You mentioned that 95% of the time it looks great -- do you refer to Olympics HD programming that most of the people seem to watch these days (except of course for figure skating :eek: ). Since there is lots of white snow in these pics, can you comment if it is 100% fixed on non-Olympics material like DVD ?

Thanks, Davie.

eclipse98

02-14-06, 03:50 PM

What do you have now?

I have an H31 and I've decided against the HD72 for now (what am I doing here :rolleyes: ), and it's not for the offset issues, which actually work in my favor.

From some of the reviews/comments, it doesn't look like the HD72 will be a big step up for me. For that I think I would take the H78DC3 plunge if I had to make a decision today. Yeah, the HD72 has a resolution advantage over the H31, but beyond that, it doesn't seem to be much of an improvement. I'm 2 screen widths away and have a small screen at the moment (small room with tall ceilings!). For now the H31 fits the bill, but that H78DC3 is in my headlights somewhere down the road. I just hope there are still some around before they run out....

Fleaman

Fleaman, I don't have any PJ, building dedicated HT in the basement, planning for 110" screen. Planning on putting first row about 12-14 feet (1.5-1.75x away). Both PJs will work fine for 110" (I have 8'6" ceiling). The only thing that discourages me from going for H78 is lack of second DVI input. I can think of 4 devices I would like to connect to this PJ: DVD, HD box, PC, Gaming Console. Having just one DVI port is a bummer.

gkanders

02-14-06, 04:14 PM

Now you do have the Alamo Drafthouse in Austin- they serve cold beer and food while you watch the movie! Now that's pretty sweet....

I was going to say the same thing! More theaters should think about doing this. At least it makes the trip "out" to the movies more fun.

presenter

02-14-06, 04:25 PM

Fleaman, I don't have any PJ, building dedicated HT in the basement, planning for 110" screen. Planning on putting first row about 12-14 feet (1.5-1.75x away). Both PJs will work fine for 110" (I have 8'6" ceiling). The only thing that discourages me from going for H78 is lack of second DVI input. I can think of 4 devices I would like to connect to this PJ: DVD, HD box, PC, Gaming Console. Having just one DVI port is a bummer.

Today even two DVI or HDMI inputs is unusual. I think the manufacturers assume an AV receiver is what most use. Many receivers now have 2 HDMI or DVI in, and one out. As digital replaces component, we'll see more Digital inputs on the receivers as well. But you can buy a DVI/HDMI switcher that offers 4 inputs, such as this Gefen piece, which even has a IR remote.
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=2654
according to their site, it sells for $399, and even comes with 4 6 foot HDMI cables (which as we all know aren't cheap).

Hope that helps. I'm a huge fan of the H78DC3, and am now reviewing the HD72 (just starting). I have an H78DC3 here as well, so in the next week or so, will post side by side images, and comments. But all the hype, Brilliant Color, etc., it still should come down to the fact that the H78 has the darkchip3 and that really makes a significant difference. I have used many Darkchip2 projectors, and the improved black levels and shadow detail found on DC3 projectors, to me, is a real difference. Of course it all comes down to the budget. -art

eclipse98

02-14-06, 04:28 PM

Now you do have the Alamo Drafthouse in Austin- they serve cold beer and food while you watch the movie! Now that's pretty sweet....

I am not sure about that -- just can't imagine chewing on a steak while watching SWIII. What about the lights? They really have to turn on the lights pretty bright to make sure you chew on the right thing. Now, if you thought that gum in your seat was bad ... :D

Uatatoka

02-14-06, 04:42 PM

I am not sure about that -- just can't imagine chewing on a steak while watching SWIII. What about the lights? They really have to turn on the lights pretty bright to make sure you chew on the right thing. Now, if you thought that gum in your seat was bad ... :D

I see your point, I only had a beer there when I went there - I didn't need lights for that! It also depends on the showing. This week it's the sick and twisted animation festival - not exactly demanding of a good theater environment like SWIII, but fun with some friends, beer and food.

Although with "sick and twisted animation" you may not want to be eating at all :)

One more day till the HD72 arrives. Impressions to follow...

eclipse98

02-14-06, 04:48 PM

Today even two DVI or HDMI inputs is unusual. I think the manufacturers assume an AV receiver is what most use. Many receivers now have 2 HDMI or DVI in, and one out. As digital replaces component, we'll see more Digital inputs on the receivers as well. But you can buy a DVI/HDMI switcher that offers 4 inputs, such as this Gefen piece, which even has a IR remote.
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=2654
according to their site, it sells for $399, and even comes with 4 6 foot HDMI cables (which as we all know aren't cheap).

Hope that helps. I'm a huge fan of the H78DC3, and am now reviewing the HD72 (just starting). I have an H78DC3 here as well, so in the next week or so, will post side by side images, and comments. But all the hype, Brilliant Color, etc., it still should come down to the fact that the H78 has the darkchip3 and that really makes a significant difference. I have used many Darkchip2 projectors, and the improved black levels and shadow detail found on DC3 projectors, to me, is a real difference. Of course it all comes down to the budget. -art

Art, I've read your review of H78 and can see that you liked it a lot -- those side by side shots of H78 vs Marantz look really nice (I wish you would provide links to original images though, since they look really small for those of us using hi resolution on their monitors -- moving your head closer to monitor as you suggested just doesn't do it). I actually liked H78 pics over Marantz. Can you share with us technique you use to make these pics look so good ? I think a little education here might be beneficial to everybody on this forum :)

It is true that one can use Gefen HDMI switch to get around number of HDMI inputs limitations, but those are not cheap and add to the total cost. Even cost aside, my concern is that one will not be able to tweak individual input settings with HDMI switch or receiver solution. I do, however, remember you mentioned that h78 will remember each setting based on the resolution of the signal fed into DVI port, so not everything is lost. :)

Thaks, Davie

Lefty4

02-14-06, 05:46 PM

I'm looking for a little help with combining a HD72 with a 106" Dalite Designer Contour Electrol Screen in a 9' high room. The offset of a 52" high screen will range from a max of 19.24 inches to a minimum of 16.64 inches. Combined with a 4 inch drop from the ceiling to the center of the lens, the total offset will be between 23.24 inches and 20.64 inches depending on how far back I mount the projector.

The screen case is 4.625 inches which means if I want to mount the screen where the wall meets the ceiling, I will need to order 24 extra inches of border (as I understand, the additional borders on Dalite screens must be ordered in 12 inch increments) and then just set the screen to drop the necessary amount.

Please let me know if my numbers make sense. Also, any suggestions for a flush mount or nearly flush mount for the HD72 would be appreciated. White would be preferable to match the projector and ceiling.

nigel_ht

02-14-06, 05:55 PM

A "bit" elitist? :). I thought I was stretching it discussing the H78DC3 here, even though these days it qualifies for this forum. How 1080p comes up in the under $3500 forum is beyond me. Sure it's better. It's also at least 4 times the price, street, of the projector this thread is about :) :)

3 times the price of the HD72. Double the MSRP (which technically puts the HD72 out of this forum as well).

Cinetron HD900. MSRP is rumored to be $6K. Street? Who knows...due in April I believe.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_1/show-report-ces-2006-page-43.html

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6871317&&#post6871317

http://www.cinetron.com.tw/

Nigel

Uatatoka

02-14-06, 06:03 PM

smyth22

02-14-06, 06:29 PM

I don't necessarily hold any conflict of interest against Art since his reviews 'appear' to be fairly un-biased. I think just being human makes anyone biased, but we all try not to be, and some are more successful than others. Considering the circumstances (his relations with projector dealers), I think he does a pretty good job. Hell of a lot better than Projector Central IMO.

Fleaman

Amen.

radchad3

02-14-06, 09:13 PM

3 times the price of the HD72. Double the MSRP (which technically puts the HD72 out of this forum as well).

Cinetron HD900. MSRP is rumored to be $6K. Street? Who knows...due in April I believe.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volu...06-page-43.html

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...7&&#post6871317

http://www.cinetron.com.tw/

Nigel

Yuck, the numbers sound great, but if they made a digital projector in the 1970's this is what it would look like!!!!!!!

myapplebuddy

02-15-06, 04:38 AM

Myapplebuddy, nice to hear that white level "problem" can be tweaked. I was getting a little discouraged after you yesterday's "crushed whites" comments. You mentioned that 95% of the time it looks great -- do you refer to Olympics HD programming that most of the people seem to watch these days (except of course for figure skating :eek: ). Since there is lots of white snow in these pics, can you comment if it is 100% fixed on non-Olympics material like DVD ?

Thanks, Davie.
I'm not sure if it will be possible to make the white levels problem 100% fixed with the HD72. The white segment is probably the culprit and there's not much you can do to get around that. Even though I think my current settings may be as good as I can make it look, there is still some non-Olympics material such as other HD channels and DVD material that has the same overblown whites issue. It would annoy some people more than others. In my setup with the way my eyes work, 95% of the time I either don't notice anything or it doesn't bother me. The other 5% of the time I just remind myself that the rest of the image looks great and for the price of the HD72 I really can't complain. It's still a relatively new purchase, so I'm sure after another month or so I'll just be able to sit and enjoy the HD72 without picking apart it's performance every time I sit down to watch something...at least I hope that will be the case! :)

nigel_ht

02-15-06, 09:30 AM

I stand on my opinion. Elitist sentiment. If you want to espouse it, that's certainly your prerogative, but you should take it to another forum where it's appreciated by others of like mind.

It's elitist to know where you want to go and the science behind the tradeoffs we have to make in this forum?

Um...okay. There is an ignore button. Feel free to use it.

I think those entertaining thoughts of putting in a theater in their homes who participate in this particular forum probably fully realize that technology marches on and that there is better product to be had, both now and in the future, but they also appreciate that they are doing the best they can on the budgets they have and technology available within those budgets.

If you don't know WHY the HD specs are the way they are then it is more difficult to make tradeoffs that will maximize the return on your budget. If you don't understand that 1080p is a minimal spec for replicating your design goal (theater in the house) then you are more likely to buy into the fallacy that resolution is unimportant because DVDs are only 480p.

Coming to this forum and defining anything 1080P or under, however you pretty it up and package it, as a minimal spec is, in my view, snobbery.

Your lack of self confidence isn't my problem. After all, I'm using a XGA data grade projector so I'm making the same tradeoffs as everyone else here. Defining 1080p as a minimal spec isn't snobbery, its an objective assessment based on the research of NHK and the minimum specification for THX theaters.

Sorry if providing information annoys you. Well, no not really.

Your comments, to a certain extent, minimalize the acceptance and appreciation of the existing technology by those participating in this forum. I, for one, appreciate the wide ranging wealth of knowledge that others, such as yourself, bring to the forum. I just appreciate it more when those "in the know", know who their audience is and react accordingly.

Oh give it a rest. There are plenty of folks in this forum that will pat you on your head and tell you made a wonderful decision. On the other hand a good portion of those own that projector or sell that projector.

There is no question that projectors today are far better than they were a few years ago. The $2000 projector in this thread outperforms $10K projectors from 4 years ago. There is also no question in my mind that in 4 years whatever projectors here will handily beat the Ruby which is the current favorite in the > $3500 forum.

Folks are asking about strategy in which projector to buy. Knowing that 720p is a stopgap to 1080p which is in itself NOT the holy grail of HT helps them determine what buying strategy is best for them. (eclipse98: My opinion, buy the cheapest you can live with. The HD72 is likely an excellent projector for this strategy. Caveat: Make sure your wife will let you replace your cheap projector in 3-4 years. If not, buy the most expensive she'll let you get away with. :) )

After all, budget IS an important factor for us in this forum. That means we have to be more dilligent in making the right decisions. Folks that can buy a new $10K projector every couple years can afford to not care.

Oddly, they care more than you do.

Nigel

nigel_ht

02-15-06, 09:36 AM

Yuck, the numbers sound great, but if they made a digital projector in the 1970's this is what it would look like!!!!!!!

Heh...I think someone described it as a 1970s clock radio without the clock part.

Nigel

AlienArchbishop

02-15-06, 09:41 AM

I thought it looked like a retro-toaster :D

myapplebuddy

02-15-06, 01:44 PM

At the risk of flying completely off the tracks, can you guys take your argument elsewhere! It's getting plain nasty :eek: and an argument like you guys are having should be it's own thread, IMO. This is the Optoma HD72 so I think it would be wise to actually, you know, DISCUSS THE OPTOMA HD72!! I'm not taking sides I just think that this forum isn't the place for your argument.

digital_dilemma

02-15-06, 01:54 PM

02-15-06, 02:01 PM

I'm not sure if it will be possible to make the white levels problem 100% fixed with the HD72. The white segment is probably the culprit and there's not much you can do to get around that. Even though I think my current settings may be as good as I can make it look, there is still some non-Olympics material such as other HD channels and DVD material that has the same overblown whites issue. It would annoy some people more than others. In my setup with the way my eyes work, 95% of the time I either don't notice anything or it doesn't bother me. The other 5% of the time I just remind myself that the rest of the image looks great and for the price of the HD72 I really can't complain. It's still a relatively new purchase, so I'm sure after another month or so I'll just be able to sit and enjoy the HD72 without picking apart it's performance every time I sit down to watch something...at least I hope that will be the case! :)

I'm interested to see how it does after some more "real world" time gets put on them; that intense brightness has got to peter off at some point; I've never seen a DLP projector that was so bright but then I haven't seen that many that were new out of the box either. After the bulbs get some time on them it should be interesting to see how they look.

One thing I haven't seen a lot of yet is source discussion, which of course has a large part to do with how the picture ends up looking. For example, with my "test" unit, I used my Oppo and nothing else, whereas with the AE900u I used that and a HTPC I am building (nVidia, TheaterTek).

I'll give an example as to why I bring this up. For those of you who own the Oppo, you may know that the latest firmware "fixed" brightness levels but also introduced an image shift problem with certain displays - the AE900u is one of them. As a result, I did what many owners did and downgraded to the previous firmware version, which doesn't have the image shift issue but is overly-bright, meaning I had to turn down the brightness on the Oppo itself.

After I moved away from the AE900u, I flashed the Oppo back to the latest firmware since the image shift issue isn't present on the H78DC3. However, I completely forgot that I had adjusted the brightness down. For the past couple of days I have been going back and forth worrying about the brightness level of the H78DC3 because with some DVD's it appeared a little dim to my eyes after I calibrated it. I couldn't get the brightness/contrast settings in Avia to come out right without over-ramping the brightness. Then I rememberd last night that the Oppo was set low - fixed that, and blammo, problem solved.

Take that one example and apply it to source in general - basically, we should talk more about what sources folks are using with the HD72 and what settings are set to with same.

CMRA

02-15-06, 02:07 PM

I have an H31 and I've decided against the HD72 for now (what am I doing here :rolleyes: ), and it's not for the offset issues, which actually work in my favor.

From some of the reviews/comments, it doesn't look like the HD72 will be a big step up for me. For that I think I would take the H78DC3 plunge if I had to make a decision today. Yeah, the HD72 has a resolution advantage over the H31, but beyond that, it doesn't seem to be much of an improvement. I'm 2 screen widths away and have a small screen at the moment (small room with tall ceilings!). For now the H31 fits the bill, but that H78DC3 is in my headlights somewhere down the road. I just hope there are still some around before they run out....

Fleaman

Fleaman, I wasn't expecting this.
What/where have you read that makes for such a 'chilling' decision. I have yet to find/read one Pro review. (Can't find any)

As far as the H78 goes, buy the time it gets H72 affordable I believe it's safe to say we will all be looking elsewhere.

myapplebuddy

02-15-06, 02:20 PM

Here's what I use:
For HDTV - Motorola 6412 III DVR cable box outputting 720P
For DVD - Old Panasonic (pre-progressive scan) player that I'm going to upgrade soon to an Oppo.

nigel_ht

02-15-06, 02:36 PM

Ditto. Okay, Mr. XGA projector man, when you've got your own 1080P projector and almost 3 times the resolution you've got now, chime in to everyone about your dissatisfaction with your "minimal" resolution. Give me a break!

ROFL. Name calling because you think I'm being snobby?

Horseshit! I do know why they are what they are. I worked at Zenith in the development days of 8VSB technology during the time of the Grand Alliance and our battle in Congress to get FCC approval. I probably have forgotten more about HD than you think you've ever learned and like to tell others about.

That's really great. Is this why you're making this a personal issue?

Knowing WHY the specs are what they are might get me a cup of coffee if someone wanted to sit down and discuss it, but it doesn't mean a effing thing to making decisions about what one puts into his or her HT.

So not knowing that NHK found that 30 degrees was the minimum they found to produce the immersive feeling of theater has not an effing thing to how you build your HT?

That perhaps by going with a 480p projector and sitting further away to minimize SDE means that you may be sacrificing the immersion factor that is an important part of the "theater feeling"?

Mmmmkay.

Man, you must think people are just plain stupid and that you're the information savior. What I do understand is that the three components of HD as a technology available for HT, Content, Display and Hardware beyond a "common" 1080P spec is a fallacy at this point and for well beyond the foreseeable horizon.

Given the number of times I've read that 480p projectors are optimal for HT I think there is a bit of disinformation in this particular forum.

I don't believe that people are stupid. I do believe you're getting overly excited over a simple comment.

There is plenty of content above the 1080p spec...as long as you collect 35mm prints. A small group of folks yes, but I think there's a few running around these forums. Its expensive, unwieldy but someday inexpensive and convienent. Even for us.

Upconverting 1080p shouldn't be impossible to imagine in 5-6 years which is hardly "unforseeable" future.

For an XGA guy to be banging the drum for higher content resolution than 1080P at this point in time falls on a whole lot of deaf ears as there are no major consumer products manufacturers who would give it any serious discussion beyond the R&D stage of "what ifs" .

Perhaps if I called you lime-green guy this conversation would be more amusing. Nah.

Greater than 1080p content is unlikely in the near future. Greater than 1080p displays are not unlikely given there was a UXGA-W display on the market for a short period (the IBM T221 @ 3840x2400) and the Dell 30" display is 2560x1600.

So much for no major consumer products. Yes, the 30" Dell has HDCP. Yes, you can really watch movies on one. Yes, you have to be sitting really damn close to get 30 degrees HVA. Yes, these aren't projectors.

You're right, it's blatant self-importance.

ROFL...sure thing. I'm claiming to be HT hobbiest. You're claiming to be one of the founding fathers of HD...

( your own assessment )

Yep. Should be pretty obvious that it is my assessment to someone of your high intellect and experience.

Yeah, well you certainly got me on that. I'm sure everyone in here is designing THX cinema theaters, especially with XGA projectors. I take it back. You're certainly proven that you're not an elitist. :rolleyes:

You know for someone railing against "snobbery" and "elitism" you sure make a big deal about the fact I have a XGA projector. Why is that I wonder?

By the way, do you mind providing us with a link to all of these THX specs showing 1080P as a minimal spec for either HT, Cinema or both? I'm sure we'd all enjoy reading that. :rolleyes:

Well, if you choose to read without getting emotional you might note that the THX spec is for theaters and not HD (and therefore not 1080p).

Specific to 1080p, Guy Kuo had a nice discussion here about the induction effect and HDTV.

I've only seen one link on the web which describes the "induction effect" which was noted by NHK's initial research into HDTV. Basically, the term was used to describe the condition in which the human visual system processed the image as if it was looking a real scene instead of a picture.

...

So...... a digital display with 1920 x 1080 pixels fed an HDTV signal is just barely enough resolution to cause the induction effect on a 30 degree wide screen!?

In other words, we probably haven't really experienced the full induction effect yet, even though we have definitely seen some impressive HDTV.

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=377408

Mmmm...yes, Guy Kuo is an elitist snob as well.

Since you've forgotten more HD than I ever knew perhaps you can peruse SMPTE standard EG-18-1994 where the recommended minimum viewing angle for movie theaters is 30 degrees and refresh your memory.

Here is a link to the THX spec (with a nice little drawing showing 36 degrees for HVA):

http://www.cinemaequipmentsales.com/athx2.html

Some other references:

I. Yuyama, "Fundamental Requirements for High-Definition Television Systems -Large Screen Effects-." NHK Technical Monograph, No. 32 June 1982

T. Hatada, H. Sakata and H. Kusaka, "Psychophsical Analysis of the Sensation of Reality Induced by a Visual Wide-field Display," SMPTE Journal, Vol. 89, Aug 1980

http://vrsj.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/ic-at/ICAT2003/papers/91117.pdf

Nigel

nigel_ht

02-15-06, 02:44 PM

Eh...was looking up the requested references. I could delete the previous message too but you know, sometimes you simply shouldn't get a chance to erase history without at least an apology.

I suppose peace be with you will have to do.

In any case, there are plenty of threads (unfortunately mostly in the >3500 forum) and I will not hijack this one any further.

Nigel

myapplebuddy

02-15-06, 02:47 PM

fleaman

02-15-06, 03:30 PM

Fleaman, I wasn't expecting this.
What/where have you read that makes for such a 'chilling' decision. I have yet to find/read one Pro review. (Can't find any)

As far as the H78 goes, buy the time it gets H72 affordable I believe it's safe to say we will all be looking elsewhere.

No 'Pro' reviews yet, and I don't necessarily trust them anyway (although I'm still awaiting Art's review on projector reviews.com). From many of the comments here, starting with these reviews and comments:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7090822&&#post7090822

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7091690&&#post7091690

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7093762&&#post7093762

This guy replaced his H31 with one:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7109395&&#post7109395

Another shootout w/H78DC3:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7112914&&#post7112914

I'm a dithering snob (that could become a modern catch phrase :eek: ), and it appears that HD72 will probably not do any better in that dept. than my H31. I'm bothered by dithering more than resolution, so I sit 2x screen widths back, not due to the 854x480 resolution of the H31, but due to the dithering that pops up once in a while. So, having a higher resolution H31 is not at all appealing to me at this point. Yeah, the HD72 will probably look better in HDTV, but I don't watch much of that. Also, I have a small screen, so I don't need the lumens.

At this point, smooth blacks/shadow details with lack of dithering, but with excellent contrast is more important to me. I want more shadow detail with no dithering and the H78DC3 seems to deliver. The HD72 doesn't appear to be much better than the H31, if any.

From the reviews posted above, the H78DC3 is in my headlights. I've always considered that projector for the future, but was hoping the HD72 might perform the same or better in the contrast/shadow detail/dithering dept., but all the reviews here have said the contrary.

Unfortunately Optoma discontinued the H78DC3 last year and while dealers seem to have a good stock available, it's pressuring me to get one before they run out since there is no other projector that performs as well as the H78DC3 in the current street price point. The yet to be released HD7300 is much more expensive and the only PJ below that is the HD72. The HD7300 may not even have power zoom/focus either (?). I can’t think of any other brand that could compete with the H78DC3 performance and price wise.

The HD72 is affordable now, but that's not the point for me. The anxiety for me is having to purchase an H78DC3 now, when I'm not really ready for it, just to get it before they run out as there doesn't seem to be any good replacement for it. And yes, that is strange, that an older discontinued PJ has a performance/value point that no other newer projector can match!?!?!?

Fleaman

omenII

02-15-06, 03:38 PM

Myapplebuddy, I posted this meander in Tom's screenshots thread re. the HD72's whites...If the HD72 is simply producing an ultra pure white without actually bleaching out near-white detail, then that can only be a good thing. Maybe a bit harsh on the eyes at first, but positive nonetheless. Afterall, the projector that produces a perfectly pure white and absolute black has perfect contrast, right? My initial worry (partly based on your screenshots with PC gamma, BC and True Vivid all on) was that it might be 'crushing' what should be different shades of white or bright areas in general, into one big white mess. Similar to bad handling of dark scenes on the 'other' type of projectors where different shades of dark greys and blacks are melded into each other.What would you say you're seeing? Bleaching/crushing of areas/colours that should appear close to white but aren't, or just an uber bright/pure actual white? Erm, if I'm making sense...

Damian.

02-15-06, 03:56 PM

No 'Pro' reviews yet, and I don't necessarily trust them anyway (although I'm still awaiting Art's review on projector reviews.com). From many of the comments here, starting with these reviews and comments:
From the reviews posted above, the H78DC3 is in my headlights. I've always considered that projector for the future, but was hoping the HD72 might perform the same or better in the contrast/shadow detail/dithering dept., but all the reviews here have said the contrary.

.....

The HD72 is affordable now, but that's not the point for me. The anxiety for me is having to purchase an H78DC3 now, when I'm not really ready for it, just to get it before they run out as there doesn't seem to be any good replacement for it. And yes, that is strange, that an older discontinued PJ has a performance/value point that no other newer projector can match!?!?!?

Fleaman

Just join the dark side and buy the H78DC3 dude. Join us! I am as pleased as punch with this thing; I finally have a projector that has virtually no flaws to my eyes. Now I can look forward to my "projector vision" developing to the point where I do see the flaws over time and I end up making car-like payments on a projector that belongs in the 20k and up forum. Then I'll turn bitter when I realize that the true perfection doesn't exist and spend my time arguing over what constitutes proper video levels for white and black and how .05 lumens really does make a difference if you look hard enough. When I do, I'll be sure to come back here and make fun of you all for being such chobs. At least, going by how this thread has started to turn out, that appears to be how things progress.

In the mean time I'll continue to enjoy my projector while working on my next project - Constant Height. The H78DC3 (and the HD72) is one of the few projectors that will scale internally on all inputs and all source resolutions to full-panel 2:35.1 - add an anamorphic lens and you are in business. I'm checking out the DIY H600 lens right now since I can get it with a mount for about $780 or so, and it includes a nice manual pass-through switch. I'll post progress in the CH forum.

omenII

02-15-06, 03:57 PM

myapplebuddy

02-15-06, 03:59 PM

What would you say you're seeing? Bleaching/crushing of areas/colours that should appear close to white but aren't, or just an uber bright/pure actual white? Erm, if I'm making sense...
I would describe it more as an "uber bright" (as you put it) white and not a bleaching/crushing effect. Basically when all other picture elements are perfect & balanced the whites look overpowering. It's as if there's a "whites" control that is turned up 10 notches above everything else. I know that contrast is white level but turning down the contrast from where I have it darkens the entire picture, and although the whites may be "tamed" some, the balance between the whites and everything else still is off. I don't have BC, AI, or True Vivid turned on, so none of those are to blame. I still think the white segment is causing the oversaturation of whites and I wish it could either be removed or I wish there was a setting where it could be "ignored" if that is possible. I love the brightness and punch, along with overall PQ that the HD72 offers, especially for the price. I just wish I could do something about the white level saturation.

HeadRusch

02-15-06, 04:02 PM

Thats why they've invented those snazzy universal mounts for the things. A couple of fasteners for your type of ceiling and you'll be right as rain.

At the same time, however, I do have to comment that in the past, when I have bought technology that is bowing out.....they haven't always been my smartest buying decisions.

Would you buy a discontinued model? What about lamps...how long has Optoma said they will support the unit as most lamps aren't interchangable. Parts? Repairs? Lamps?
Lamps? And more importantly, what about Lamps?

Now in a 1K projector thats one thing if the lamps become expensive or hard to find, but when you're shelling out $2-$3k for a projector, you do want the device to have some legs...more than 12-24 months I'd imagine. Will the lamps be impossible to find or pricy in that time?

I dunno..I'd be a little bit wary myself.....

HeadRusch

02-15-06, 04:03 PM

So has anyone tried fitting a ND filter to the thing yet to tame the brightness? Sounds like the same type of problem that plagued the 4805 for awhile...its just so damned bright.

02-15-06, 04:11 PM

Interesting the number of people whom seem to be toying with or have already taken the plunge on a H78DC3 based off the discussion in here.

I've just heard a rumour the H79 will be dropping to under £2000 in the next month over here in the UK and it almost had me thinking "what if", too. Particularly as it's also rumoured the HD72i won't now drop here for another month either. They're still ironing firmware bugs in the PAL side of the Faroudja apparently. Thing is, as daft as it sounds, I'd almost have to steer clear of a H78 or 9 because of the weight and size of the bloody things. Granted, they're hardly CRT's but I've only a plasterboard ceiling and don't fancy donning a helmet to sit under one every I tuck into a film :o

Damian.

There's only a 7 pound difference between the H78DC3 and the HD72, mounted. And the HD72 is already one of the lightest projectors around for HT. If your ceiling is that fragile I'm not sure 7 pounds is going to make that much of a difference.

Do you have access to the top of that ceiling (i.e. attic or subfloor)? I have a framed drywall ceiling but my mounting position was no where near a wooden stud. I pre-drilled holes, went in to my attic, and put down a 4x4 section of 3/8 inch plywood - it is excellent for holding screws. Then, I used so-called "Stud Solver" drywall screws, which are just metal inserts that drill in to wood as opposed to the usual plastic drywall screws. I drilled those up into the ceiling and through it in to the plywood above, then attached the projector mount to that. Works like a charm.

If you don't have access to the top of your ceiling you can do the reverse - mount a piece of wood below. I'm assuming that somewhere in your ceiling there are studs or other support structures of some kind; you can use a larger piece of wood to reach and attach to those, then attach the mount to it. The problem there is now you have a big piece of wood on your ceiling, so you are probably going to want to finish and paint it unlike a piece that goes up above that you could care less what it looks like.

Finally, don't forget that the H78DC3 can be rear-shelf mounted or mounted in some kind of book case or even tall (stable) stand behind your seating area. In fact if you have high ceilings that's the easiest way to mount it since you don't need to deal with extensions.

Where there is a will there is a way, good luck!

myapplebuddy

02-15-06, 04:34 PM

So has anyone tried fitting a ND filter to the thing yet to tame the brightness? Sounds like the same type of problem that plagued the 4805 for awhile...its just so damned bright.
That's what I asked earlier too. I actually want to buy an ND filter to try with the HD72 but I need some basic FAQ info about ND filters so I know where to start and what to get. I have no experience with them so far. There isn't a "ND filter basics" thread I'm aware of but if there is could someone point me in the right direction?

chinch

02-15-06, 04:48 PM

omenII

02-15-06, 05:22 PM

That's what I asked earlier too. I actually want to buy an ND filter to try with the HD72 but I need some basic FAQ info about ND filters so I know where to start and what to get. I have no experience with them so far. There isn't a "ND filter basics" thread I'm aware of but if there is could someone point me in the right direction?I've been looking into it in advance, and it seems the best would be a Hoya HMC ND2 Filter (cuts 50% brightness. Not as severe as it sounds, though) or even ND4 (cuts 75% brightness). Info can be found here (http://www.hoya-online.co.uk/lst74.htm). Another option would be an FL-Day/White Filter (http://www.hoya-online.co.uk/lst103.htm), which I believe target whites specifically but also affects, or 'corrects', colours. I think the ND2 or ND4 would be the best bet, to be honest. It'll tone down brightness, whites, and even black level for extra bonus points, without touching colours.

Damian.

fleaman

02-15-06, 05:27 PM

At the same time, however, I do have to comment that in the past, when I have bought technology that is bowing out.....they haven't always been my smartest buying decisions.

Would you buy a discontinued model? What about lamps...how long has Optoma said they will support the unit as most lamps aren't interchangable. Parts? Repairs? Lamps?
Lamps? And more importantly, what about Lamps?

Now in a 1K projector thats one thing if the lamps become expensive or hard to find, but when you're shelling out $2-$3k for a projector, you do want the device to have some legs...more than 12-24 months I'd imagine. Will the lamps be impossible to find or pricy in that time?

I dunno..I'd be a little bit wary myself.....

It's very strange in Home Theater projector history to have a discontinued model perform better at it's price point than anything current or upcomming today. But it seems to be with the H78DC3.

As for lamps....I wouldn't at all worry about the availabilty. There are still lamps available for the discontinued H30 and Infocus X1 and probably many other discontinued HT PJ's from 3-6 years ago. 1-2 years from now? Oh yeah, there will be lamps. I'm not really sure if there are any HT PJ's discontinued 2 years ago in which lamps are Not available.

As for buying technolgy that is "bowing out", the HD72 will be discontinued within 1 year if Optoma continues their trend of releasing new and updated HT projectors every 3-6 months. Just look at the H30, H76, H77, H78, H79, H78DC3, etc. ....the H30 and H76 were only just released 2 years ago!!! BTW, lamps are still available for all of them :)

Optoma will repair/support them for years to come. Of course, like anything, when the warranty runs out, you'll have to foot the bill. But this isn't different for any other PJ, new or discontinued. Optoma as a company will be around for a while.

For the last 5 years plus, buying HT projectors were like buying computors. But it is very strange indeed that the H78DC3 is bucking that trend. Maybe in the next few months Optoma will announce a replacement for it that either performs better for the same price, or performs the same for less $$$. For now though, there is nothing in its performance range at its current street cost.

Fleaman

omenII

02-15-06, 05:35 PM

Cheers for the mounting info and tips on the H78, Ix. Thing is, I'm in the attic already :) Any further up is, y'know, the chimney and slates of an old English terraced house. There is obviously a number of wooden supports scattered about behind the plasterboard, but I recall none were particularly handily situated when I mounted my H31. Please...don't encourage me anymore, anyway ;) To be perfectly honest, I really do have to cap myself at £1500 where my PJ budget is concerned. A buggar I know, but the line needs to be drawn somewhere sadly. It's the main reason I'm still so hopeful the HD72 will come good, as it's what I've holding out for since it's announcement. As I'm sure it has been for many...

Damian.

omenII

02-15-06, 05:40 PM

As for buying technolgy that is "bowing out", the HD72 will be discontinued within 1 year if Optoma continues their trend of releasing new and updated HT projectors every 3-6 months. Just look at the H30, H76, H77, H78, H79, H78DC3, etc. ....the H30 and H76 were only just released 2 years ago!!! Good point that, fleaman. Would say it was Optoma's only weak point in that they seem to over saturate their own market, and end up competing with themselves. Can only serve to confuse the average Joe buying public, too. The H77, then H79, then H78DC3 all arrived within not much more than 12 months of one another. Then the H27 and H31 scenario...bit daft, really.

Damian.

HeadRusch

02-15-06, 05:42 PM

LOL... this is a real stretch. You think a $1999 PJ will have substantially longer "support" and "bulb" availability then the H78/79?

I think there are inherent downsides to buying the last of something. You save a ton of money and probably get a great product. At the same time you are buying a discontinued item. You can say "Bah, thats silly!" but companies drop support all the time for discontinued items. Parts become expensive, fixing becomes expensive, and so on.

To ignore this is to wallow blindly into the "Wow its great and its cheap lets get it!" camp......

I think you're seeing the H78 flurry because the H72 is somewhat of a letdown from the H77 and the low relative pricing of the H78 screams "NO BRAINER" if you can put up a few extra $$$. It's longetivity would probably offset the higher cost all things being equal. Also the H78 successor is much higher price and includes pricey "scalers" many of us have HTPCs for.

I doubt highly that there are more people using scalars in HTPC's than stand alone units for either DVD or HD content......I'm not knocking the 78 by anyones standard, I'm just wondering what the downside is for buying technology thats on its way out the door.

Yes it may very well be that the best product is now on its way out to pasture, being replaced by more expensive but less-capable models....lord knows its happened in the past in just about every area......but you also have to stop and ask if its worth it in the long run. It would be like someone buying one of those NEC light-cannon DLP units that sold for like $10 grand, and today even tho they are discontinued were like $3 to $4 grand...the 4:3 one that was all the rage a few years ago.......came with an anamorphic lens for awhile. Its like yeah its a great projector, but, aren't you going to find something better for cheaper in a years time...?

I dunno....yeah its a bit of a stretch I suppose....playing Devils advocate and whatnot here.

I also agree on the 27 versus 31. When I got my 31 the 27 was just announced and coming out, and for the life of me I couldn't figure out why they were marketing two of nearly the same PJ...without discontinuing one or the other. The H31 and H27 are now side by side still.......and yet, the differences between them are like...practically nil.

fleaman

02-15-06, 06:01 PM

I also agree on the 27 versus 31. When I got my 31 the 27 was just announced and coming out, and for the life of me I couldn't figure out why they were marketing two of nearly the same PJ...without discontinuing one or the other. The H31 and H27 are now side by side still.......and yet, the differences between them are like...practically nil.

I guess I'm still not understanding your logic here (in the kindest way :) ). You seem to be saying you would not buy a discontinued PJ for fear of lamp availability/support, even though the difference between a 'new' projector and a discontinued one might only be 3-4 months? Like in the case of HD72 vs H78DC3?

If you were in the market for a entry PJ today (assuming you don't already have the H31), would you purchase the H27 if the H31 was discontinued 2 months ago, yet performed slightly better for the same or slightly less price?

I wouldn't. To me a few months difference in being discontinued, not to mention Optoma has a history in discontinuing PJ's rapidly, would make me purchase the H31 instead (assuming my above theoretical scenario).

Fleaman

chinch

02-15-06, 06:20 PM

To ignore this is to wallow blindly into the "Wow its great and its cheap lets get it!" camp......it's not "cheap" in relative terms. It's just that it outperforms the new one many of us were holding back considering. No biggie.

Most of us probably will purge/ebay the PJ soon after warranty expires it. Then there's always the $100 or so extended warranty (my CC adds 1 year warranty also!)

Playing devil's advocate is fine, but you gotta come up with a few valid points here. I can't find one myself.

even Tom says the H77 throws a picture than the H72 so it's not like Optoma upgraded alot. They streamlined, probably cost cut, etc. but where is the improvement? we're talking "Home theater" so "light canon" is mostly irrelevant IMHO (if you have alot of light you're getting a crummy picture relative to the same PJ a dark room anyways) ;)

fleaman

02-15-06, 06:25 PM

And to add to the extended warranty options, one (or more?) of the dealers that has a banner ad above also gives you an extra free lamp with the H78DC3, along with a free ceiling mount.

My my.....this is just killing me!

Fleaman

chinch

02-15-06, 06:36 PM

and $100 rebate :)

myapplebuddy

02-15-06, 06:51 PM

velvetpoet

02-15-06, 07:06 PM

hate to interupt all the bickering but they have a review up at projectorcentral......

fleaman

02-15-06, 07:33 PM

The one thing that concerns me with the H78DC3 is the brightness, not out of the box, but after 500 hours or so of viewing. I'm not sure if the bulb is similar to the H79, but many people have reported that the H79's bulb loses brightness fairly quickly. If I lost 50% of brightness on the H78DC3 I'm afraid I'd be out of luck for daytime viewing of any kind. Actually the one great use for BC I've found is to overcome major ambient light issues during the daytime. This morning my wife and I were watching a show that was way too dim with the amount of light that was present in the room, but I used BC on setting 5 and it helped a lot. With that amount of ambient light present, I'm not as concerned with perfect PQ as much as being able to actually see what's happening on the screen. For me that's the major reason, other than the 1.5x cost (with the rebates and stuff) of the H78DC3, that I'm sticking with the HD72.

If ambient light viewing is more important than dark room picture quality, then it would seem the HD72 is a no-brainer. Of course every PJ is gonna suffer under ambient light, just that a light cannon like the HD72 is gonna do much better than the H78DC3 for sure.

Fleaman

HeadRusch

02-15-06, 08:11 PM

I guess I'm still not understanding your logic here (in the kindest way :) ). You seem to be saying you would not buy a discontinued PJ for fear of lamp availability/support, even though the difference between a 'new' projector and a discontinued one might only be 3-4 months? Like in the case of HD72 vs H78DC3?

No, I'm saying I'd think hard about buying a discontinued product :)

If you were in the market for a entry PJ today (assuming you don't already have the H31), would you purchase the H27 if the H31 was discontinued 2 months ago, yet performed slightly better for the same or slightly less price?

I dont know what I'd choose...it took me 4 years to finally decide on the H31, I can't make these decisions on a spur of the moment. FIRST I'd have to spend at least a year here reading up on these mysterious H31's and H27's, then comparing them to some competitively priced LCD's. Then, I'd get some PM's from guys going "DUDE, YOU GOTTA GET A Z2...THEY RULE!". Then, I'd post some questions.....then a week later post them again, only slightly re-worded...to TEST the experts :)

Then I'd eventually go away and come back six months later and ask the same batch of questions...

You see where I'm going with this? I dunno....I'd pick...one of them, go through a slight period of buyers remorse, then be happy about whatever I chose :)

I wouldn't. To me a few months difference in being discontinued, not to mention Optoma has a history in discontinuing PJ's rapidly, would make me purchase the H31 instead (assuming my above theoretical scenario).
Fleaman

A valid arguement, and the one I posted above.......my confusion on the 31/27 is that, last time i checked,neither one was discontinued and yet they seemed like direct competition for each other (!).

Raul GS

02-15-06, 08:13 PM

If ambient light viewing is more important than dark room picture quality, then it would seem the HD72 is a no-brainer. Of course every PJ is gonna suffer under ambient light, just that a light cannon like the HD72 is gonna do much better than the H78DC3 for sure.
Despite some claims, PC's review does not validate the perception of this FP as bright, unless one considers 385 (econo) and 500 (bright) lumens bright.

myapplebuddy

02-15-06, 08:30 PM

I don't put much weight on Projector Central's reviews, but I noticed they moved the HD72 above the AE900U & the Z4 on the "top 5" list. I'm assuming that means they like the PQ more than those 2 by a fair margin. Since the street price of the AE900U & the Z4 is about 25% less than the HD72 when you take rebates/special offers into account, I would assume that the HD72 is an OBVIOUS winner over those since Projector Central puts lots of weight on price when they choose their "top 5".

fleaman

02-15-06, 08:50 PM

Despite some claims, PC's review does not validate the perception of this FP as bright, unless one considers 385 (econo) and 500 (bright) lumens bright.

I woulda expected higher numbers considering what people have posted here. But, it is ProjectorCentral, so who knows. 500 is certainly brighter than my H31, but the 385 would seem to be around the same as my H31 in econo mode.

I don't think bright mode on my H31 goes anywhere near 500. When I turn my bright mode on, I notice a little difference in brightness....but it's really a small difference. I'm sure that clear/white segement on the HD72 allows such a increase.

Fleaman

CMRA

02-15-06, 09:15 PM

Despite some claims, PC's review does not validate the perception of this FP as bright, unless one considers 385 (econo) and 500 (bright) lumens bright.

I was expecting more from PC myself. Heck, they had the unit for two weeks.
Usually they often compare units in side by side shootouts, but such wasn't the case this time. Seems they went out of their way to tell all about the installation issues. So much for a PRO review this time.

myapplebuddy

02-15-06, 09:36 PM

I think that those brightness numbers sound low, based on what I've read about other projectors and what I'm seeing everyday using this projector. I'm not an expert, but maybe you guys can let me know if the following is accurate: When you calibrate a new projector, usually you turn brightness down because the brand new lamp runs really bright. But as the lamp ages, you need to increase the brightness to keep the same image quality, right? It would seem that because the HD72 has "more brightness to work with" (1300 lumens) when it's brand new, that over time as the bulb ages you could still keep that original brightness level longer than say a projector that is rated at 800 lumens to start with.

Do calibrated brightness levels on ANY HT projector usually go above 400 lumens? If not, then aren't most projectors able to achieve a solid level of brightness when they're brand new? If they can, then to me the key issue is HOW LONG the picture can stay punchy until the bulb fades. It would seem that the HD72 wouldn't 'struggle' as much with brightness as a projector with a lower brightness rating and therefore the HD72's bulb won't fade as fast. Case in point, guitarman mentioned that in the first 50 hours of use his HD72 only lost .4 of 1% of it's brightness! The calibrated lumen output may not be vastly different from other projectors out of the box, but I would bet that over time the HD72 will be able to keep those same brightness levels for much, much longer than many other HT projectors.

Did any of that make sense? I hope so, and please let me know if what I just wrote is total rubbish. It's just a theory I had and I want to know if I'm way off base.

smithfarmer

02-15-06, 10:13 PM

You should only be using the brightness setting to adjust the black level during calibration. It has nothing to do with the light output of the pj's lamp. The lamp mode setting is for total light output.

PC is reporting 385 ANSI lumens and this will always be a lower number than the marketed lumens output given by the manufacturer.

385 still seems like a very low number. Then again, Projector Central has never been famous for accurate measurements. ;)

02-15-06, 10:34 PM

I mean no offense at all to the folks at Projectorcentral, and in fact I've enjoyed some of their other reviews and comparisons, but I can't be the only one who is disappointed with their HD72 review. I mean, not to toot my own horn, but even my own cruddy review was about 10x more in depth, (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7090822&&#post7090822) even without fancy-pants calibration tools, which from the lumen number they threw out I am assuming they do have (even though apparently their use of such is suspect here).

Heck, all I really used in my review was the caveman method, which consisted of:

Look good
Look not so good
Look bad
Thok

And I still think you'd get more out of it than the PC one. I expected a little more from that site this time, I guess. Where are the screenshots, the comparisons, the Super-Deluxe color measurements using Spyders and other tools most of us only vaguely understand but like reading about anyway because it's reassuring?

I don't want to start a brawl here but check out this review of the H78DC3 over at Projector Reviews dot com:

http://www.projectorreviews.com/optoma/H78DC3/index.asp

See, now that is the kind of review I was expecting. It's in depth. It's got comparisons to other projectors. It lists a great many results and goes into the reasoning behind them. It lists the strengths and weaknesses equally. As it happens, that review, plus the many, many posts I read here, was what convinced me to finally spend the extra money on the H78DC3 sight unseen after I realized the offset on the HD72 wouldn't work for me. That was a really good review and you know what? It was dead on. We need reviews like that for the HD72.

alpha575

02-15-06, 11:32 PM

I was pretty dissapointed with the review as well. All that it said about the image quality (which is the most important part IMO) was that it was "highly competitive" with LCD projectors in its price range and that it "sets a new benchmark in price/performance for 720p." I would have liked a little more quantification as to exactly how much better it was.

myapplebuddy

02-15-06, 11:35 PM

Ix,
Art at projectorreviews.com should have the Optoma HD72 review up in the next few days (according to their site). So the good news is that help is on the way! :) After that totally unacceptable review from PC I think I'm officially giving up on them as a credible source. They were already near the bottom of my list and this just moved them off the list altogether. I just wish Widescreen Review would review less expensive projectors more often. Greg Rogers, their main projector review guy, does an outstanding job with his reviews.

fleaman

02-15-06, 11:35 PM

I don't want to start a brawl here but check out this review of the H78DC3 over at Projector Reviews dot com:

http://www.projectorreviews.com/optoma/H78DC3/index.asp

See, now that is the kind of review I was expecting. It's in depth. It's got comparisons to other projectors. It lists a great many results and goes into the reasoning behind them. It lists the strengths and weaknesses equally. As it happens, that review, plus the many, many posts I read here, was what convinced me to finally spend the extra money on the H78DC3 sight unseen after I realized the offset on the HD72 wouldn't work for me. That was a really good review and you know what? It was dead on. We need reviews like that for the HD72.

Yep, your review Ix blows ProjectorCentral out of the water. But then again, you don't have Projector manufactures on your back that you have to protect and pimp.

Art @ Projector Reviews kicks a.ss and he posts here too....

Anyway, I have come to expect not-much from ProjectorCentral these days...

Fleaman

myapplebuddy

02-15-06, 11:41 PM

kktx

02-15-06, 11:49 PM

kktx

02-15-06, 11:55 PM

I would describe it more as an "uber bright" (as you put it) white and not a bleaching/crushing effect. Basically when all other picture elements are perfect & balanced the whites look overpowering. It's as if there's a "whites" control that is turned up 10 notches above everything else... I just wish I could do something about the white level saturation.

Back to the screen question, myapplebuddy--do you think that if you went with another screen (e.g., the Carada gray) that this would be less of an issue than when the PJ is mated to the Carada brilliant white screen?

Just a thought, and one I'm curious about since I also liked what I read about this screen. I'll have a completely light controlled room, so there's no other reason for a >1 gain screen, but I wonder what others are mating to this PJ and how others view the white issue. I saw that guitarman didn't seem to have the same concerns in his review.

KK

CMRA

02-15-06, 11:57 PM

I don't put much weight on Projector Central's reviews, but I noticed they moved the HD72 above the AE900U & the Z4 on the "top 5" list.

There list clearly states "most popular". How's that possible? Popular with who? Two guys, with a beer, and a pooch? I guess it's their clever way of saying they preferred it to the LCD solutions.

HiHoStevo

02-15-06, 11:59 PM

I think Tom is using his HD72 with the Grey Wolf from Optoma... perhaps the grey wolf is doing something to help warm up the whites?

myapplebuddy

02-16-06, 12:50 AM

I think Tom is using his HD72 with the Grey Wolf from Optoma... perhaps the grey wolf is doing something to help warm up the whites?
I'm not sure if it's the screen but it could be. Although in all my readings about the Carada Brilliant White and the Stewart Studiotek 130 (similar to the Carada BW) I haven't heard any complaints about issues with white levels. Maybe I'll order some grey screen samples - I know about the Optoma greywolf and the Stewart Firehawk. Any other suggestions? Which companies send free samples?

digital_dilemma

02-16-06, 12:59 AM

Robert Clark

02-16-06, 01:31 AM

I think Tom is using his HD72 with the Grey Wolf from Optoma... perhaps the grey wolf is doing something to help warm up the whites?

Having used the GreyWolf for two days with my AE500 I can definitely see where a projector with very bright whites would be a good match for it, on mine the whites are markedly flattened...

chad4bama

02-16-06, 01:57 AM

I echo the statements about the review on PC. I was really looking forward to reading it and kept checking everyday for the past 2-3 days for it. And I've learned nothing new by reading it. Some of their reviews on the Panys and the Sanyos in particular have been much more detailed.

Anyway, H31 owner here looking to upgrade and get more brightness and punch (though I think the H31 is awesome...esp. for a sub $1000 price these days.

I'd love to see an in-depth professional head to head review between the HD72, AE900, Z4, and Mits HC3000.

kevivoe

02-16-06, 08:54 AM

I'd love to see an in-depth professional head to head review between the HD72, AE900, Z4, and Mits HC3000.

You might as well throw the IN76 in this list. It should be hitting the streets in 2 weeks.

None of these (DLP) PJ's really works in a theater setup for the previous generation long throw PJ's with low offset however. Who's bright idea was it to boost offset and reduce throw? People aren't building smaller houses ... BTW, I am not at all interested in LCD PJ's. Review after review shows their contrast level inferiority no matter what they "claim."

Najeeb

02-16-06, 09:06 AM

Having used the GreyWolf for two days with my AE500 I can definitely see where a projector with very bright whites would be a good match for it, on mine the whites are markedly flattened...

I think that if you view the GreyWolf from roughly the same position as where the projector is shooting from, you'll notice great whites. The biggest problem with the GreyWolf (and any other high gain) screens is that they are retro-reflective and if you move off axis, you lose a huge percentage of the brightness. I don't know the numbers but it almost seems like the GreyWolf is down to 0.8 gain by the time you're 20-30 degrees off-axis.

In any case, I tried the HD72 with a couple of Screen Innovations screens as well as with the GreyWolf and I have to say that it's a very decent projector. What impressed me the most about it was the great contrast as compared to the Epson 550, Panasonic AE900 and the Z4. While these LCD PJs are great, they really can't hold a candle to true contrast (as opposed to the dynamic iris trick).

In my room, I have a very low ceiling - about 6.5' and I did have to use keystone correction but in the real world, it honestly isn't the worst thing. When you use a 16:9 screen with a black border and use keystoning, you really can't tell that there is anything wrong with the image. I understand that if you want 1:1 mapping, it doesn't work as well but for watching upscaled DVDs and HD, it's phenomenal.

One other note - I know that some people have complained about a noisy picture but I really don't think it's that bad. I had an H79 and it was about the same. I just put a Algolith Mosquito in the loop and I have a wonderful noise-free picture. Just think about it. You could get an H79 or you can pick up a HD72 AND an Algolith Flea (similar to a Mosquito but less features) for around the same price as the H79. IMHO, I have a much better picture with the HD72/Mosquito combination than I had with just the H79 even though I am using keystoning.

Najeeb

nigel_ht

02-16-06, 09:21 AM

Personally, I trust user reviews more. That said, it's typically from users with the ability to measure the important (to me) specifications.

My order of priority is typically lumens (for ambient), resolution (because I see SDE very well), cr (punchy), color and grayscale accuracy (which are somewhat harder to see without a good reference source...although bad performance is rather obvious).

Other folks will likely have color/grayscale 1st, cr 2nd and so forth.

385/500 is dissapointing but lacking another measurement that's all we have at the moment. I'm not sure we can poo-poo it until we DO get another measurement. Guitarman does have the necessary gear if I recall correctly.

I find I use PC a lot just to search for projectors. I use AVS to get a feel for the projectors to winnow down the list I want to try to see.

With respect to the H78DC3 I wouldn't worry too much. There should be a lot of parts commonality with the H79. I didn't follow it too closely but I recall speculation that the H79 was just cherry picked H78DC3. Googling for lamps the H77, H78DC3 and H79 shows the same lamp in a lot of places. If IX can confirm the H78 bulb is the BL-FU250E (same as the H77/H79). The old part number is the SP.L3703.001. I've also see SP.L1301.001 for the H77/H79 listed.

Nigel

HeadRusch

02-16-06, 09:34 AM

I value ProjectorCentral as well, however nearly all of their past reviews have been, well, less-than-informative. It really does feel as though they are either not at all passionate about reviews anymore, or they farm out reviews to different people, some of whom just do a fairly lousy job with it.

If they dont read almost exactly like a company brochure (See I think the Panny 900 reivew or the Sanyo Z4 one, it reads like someone from Panny/Sanyo wrote it), then they tend to be loaded with personal opinions and anecdotes, sometimes to the omission of actual facts. Also, if they have multiple people doing reviews, I'm not sure that they dont have multiple testing environments...which can further confuse the issue of comparisons...

Robert Clark

02-16-06, 09:36 AM

I think that if you view the GreyWolf from roughly the same position as where the projector is shooting from, you'll notice great whites. The biggest problem with the GreyWolf (and any other high gain) screens is that they are retro-reflective and if you move off axis, you lose a huge percentage of the brightness. I don't know the numbers but it almost seems like the GreyWolf is down to 0.8 gain by the time you're 20-30 degrees off-axis.

In any case, I tried the HD72 with a some Screen Innovations screens as well as with the GreyWolf and I have to say that it's a very decent projector. What impressed me the most about it was the great contrast as compared to the Epson 550, Panasonic AE900 and the Z4. While these LCD PJs are great, they really can't hold a candle to true contrast (as opposed to the dynamic iris trick).

In my room, I have a very low ceiling - about 6.5' and I did have to use keystone correction but in the real world, it honestly isn't the worst thing. When you use a 16:9 screen with a black border and use keystoning, you really can't tell that there is anything wrong with the image. I understand that if you want 1:1 mapping, it doesn't work as well but for watching upscaled DVDs and HD, it's phenomenal.

One other note - I know that some people have complained about a noisy picture but I really don't think it's that bad. I had an H79 and it was about the same. I just put a Algolith Mosquito in the loop and I have a wonderful noise-free picture. Just think about it. You could get an H79 or you can pick up a HD72 AND an Algolith Flea (similar to a Mosquito but less features) for around the same price as the H79. IMHO, I have a much better picture with the HD72/Mosquito combination than I had with just the H79 even though I am using keystoning.

Najeeb

I have a low ceiling too, and also have an angular reflective M2500 screen mounted behind the Greywolf. For the Greywolf I lowered my projector to about 6 feet above the ground, it's still a much darker screen than the M2500 material!

How large a screen are you using with the HD72 at a 6.5 foot height? That's the lowest I heard of someone mounting the 72.

BTW, I agree with your comment that the latest LCD models still do not match the HD72 (or other new DLP's) for contrast...

02-16-06, 10:00 AM

nigel_ht

02-16-06, 10:58 AM

Guitarman seems to have measured 850L in bright mode which is about what I expected.

Interesting thread in the > 3500 forum about brightness though (applies to H78DC3):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=645469

Lamp fall off seems to be more severe than we think. If Evan's review model has some hours on it, could be his measurements are right too.

Nigel

hmcewin

02-16-06, 11:19 AM

[QUOTE=Najeeb]I think that if you view the GreyWolf from roughly the same position as where the projector is shooting from, you'll notice great whites. The biggest problem with the GreyWolf (and any other high gain) screens is that they are retro-reflective and if you move off axis, you lose a huge percentage of the brightness. I don't know the numbers but it almost seems like the GreyWolf is down to 0.8 gain by the time you're 20-30 degrees off-axis.

The Silverstar is a high gain screen that is angular reflective.

myapplebuddy

02-16-06, 11:22 AM

Unless guitarman is wrong with his calculations, I don't think PC's review model had too many hours on it. Guitarman already measured that the lumen output on the HD72 only decreased .4 of 1% in the first 50 hours. Based on that it sounds like Optoma has made a major leap forward in bulb life with the HD72. I would guess that the way PC calibrated it or the way they measured gave lower lumen output numbers somehow. Mine is calibrated too, and if it's really only putting out 375 lumens, then I am truly amazed at what 375 lumens can do with daylight in the room on a 96" screen! Like I mentioned in a previous post, if 375 lumens can get me enought punch to use the projector with a fair amount of ambient light in the room, then I would guess that most projectors these days could get me an equally "punchy" image out of the box. In that case, my biggest concern is HOW LONG I will enjoy that same punch until the bulb dies down. If the HD72 bulb is going to age as slowly as it sounds it is, then I am one happy camper! A few reviews I've read have mentioned that the HD72 is a bit louder than many of the previous Optoma models so I'm wondering if they have redesigned their bulb cooling system after having somewhat poor bulb life performance with previous models.

nigel_ht

02-16-06, 12:04 PM

No...my first projector that was heavily modded came out around 350L and it was definately too dim (for me) for ambient (white room w/shaded windows in the afternoon) on a 1.5G screen.

I believe 800L a lot more than 500L if you can live with some ambient. I also don't think that the 22.5% loss at 50 hours will be typical either. 46% in 400-500 hours I can believe.

Personally it takes me a bit of time to get to 500 hours. :)

Nigel

Rod S

02-16-06, 01:19 PM

I guess I'm still waiting for more user and pro reviews to filter out. I may just stick with my H31 as I've been pretty happy with it. Especially it's performance with HDTV (The Olympics have been looking great, the Superbowl was extremely good. Lost is pretty good but I wish they would hold the damn camera steady sometimes). My original thought was to sell both my H31's and get the HD72 but I'm having trouble justifying it at this point as I'm not seeing a big enough advantage to jump ship yet.

guitarman

02-16-06, 01:33 PM

Robert Clark

02-16-06, 02:04 PM

[QUOTE=Najeeb]
The Silverstar is a high gain screen that is angular reflective.

As is the Draper M2500... ;)

Too bad it has that damned vertical texture as it's one of best screens I've ever used with a ceiling mounted projector: great brightness, outstanding viewing angle...

Dave Mack

02-16-06, 03:32 PM

Hey all!

I have had a h57 for about 6 months. Love it but am wondering how this would compare. Going to full 720P res from 576P is very tempting. Any opinions? Thanks!

Uatatoka

02-16-06, 03:52 PM

I'm officially converted to DLP. No rainbows, yes! The HD72 is simply spectacular - I had no idea how much I was missing in sheer black level detail and brightness. The raw contrast brings a LOT of depth to the picture that was never there before. The Z2 was dim and had what I can only describe as a milky cast over the entire image. I'm sure the newer LCDs are much better, but now that 720p/768p is available at this price point I would steer my friends toward this technology. This is probably old news for most of you DLP owners...

I was very pleased being able to watch it in ambient light with little loss in quality. The image never got washed out even when four 60W ceiling lights on at full blast. I have a 94" DIY screen as well as a 92" graywolf. Since the projector was table mounted I could only project 84". When I get a ceiling mount I will install it to fit the screen. I didn't use the graywolf in this setup much because I didn't want the screen gain to throw off my impressions - the gain disappears when ceiling mounted.

I did notice some minor loss in white level detail in the brightest of areas (I have some good screenshots I will post this evening that show this), but I haven't had enough time to tweak with this so there is room for improvement. I only calibrated per Tom/guitarman's settings and it is hard to spot with those. Most material I watch is more demanding on black levels, so I don't foresee this being a huge issue for me, especially when the bulb gets some life on it.

Eliminating the harsh whites and vertical lens shift would be the only reasons I could justify upgrading to the well regarded H78DC3. Better blacks (!), less noise/dithering, and better color balance would be bonus only, as the HD72 performs fine for me there. I'm reluctant to do this however, as I'm hesitant to give up the brightness and there are some cases of short bulb life issues with the H78.

I also liked the additional vertical resolution in HTPC mode, it was just a little but it helped. I think an added bonus here may be for the gaming crowd as the HD72 supports a native 1024x768 resolution as well (some games only support 4:3 modes). If I keep this I may build a 16:10 screen to take advantage of this.

I did notice a green line on the right hand side of the screen when watching 720p or 1080i with my HR10-250 HD tuner. One click of the overscan feature elimanted this however. I recorded the Superbowl in HD and it was my favorite material to watch with this projector. The Pittsburgh helmets were actually black! The HD72 couldn't fix the dubious officiating nor Jerramy Stephens ball catching abilities however (grrrr....maybe next year hawks).

Screen shots to follow....

Ximori

02-16-06, 03:56 PM

PC is probably measuring with Colorfacts or the Optic one. I'm using a light meter that has proven to be accurate many times. The HD72 light level measures out about identical to the Movie Time DV10 which also uses a small white segment. Coloring looks much better on the HD72.

For what it's worth PC has been off on their measurments just about all the time. Sorry Evan :)

So the H72 is sounding more like a 720p DV10 w/ brilliant color. I saw the the DV10 before and looks good but noisy. Btw, PC I think uses an RS Grayhawk for their reviews. And they should, at least, mention their setups.

Najeeb

02-16-06, 05:18 PM

I have a low ceiling too, and also have an angular reflective M2500 screen mounted behind the Greywolf. For the Greywolf I lowered my projector to about 6 feet above the ground, it's still a much darker screen than the M2500 material!

How large a screen are you using with the HD72 at a 6.5 foot height? That's the lowest I heard of someone mounting the 72.

BTW, I agree with your comment that the latest LCD models still do not match the HD72 (or other new DLP's) for contrast...

I have a 120" Screen Innovations Theatre Reference. The screen material is a 1.3 gain High Contrast Matte White. The bottom of the image part of the screen is 15" from the floor. My seating position is 13' back and from the front of the lens to the screen is 15.5'. The projector is on a mount that ends up dropping the projector 5.5" from the 6.5' ceiling. The projector has to be tilted up so that the image can be on the screen - of course then it requires a little bit of keystoning.

After spending a few more hours with this projector I have a few more comments. I still think that the picture has too much video noise without some kind of external noise reduction. The Panasonic AE900 has a MUCH cleaner image without the need for external noise reduction. With that said, I think it's worth every penny to go from any of the D5 LCD projectors to the HD72 WITH an Algolith Flea or Mosquito.

Bottom line is that I'm keeping this projector. With a good source signal the image is really quite smooth. I'm using keystoning and I don't care. The picture really is that good.

The only other item that deserves a mention is the fan noise. This projector is quite noisy - especially if you turn on ImageAI. When ImageAI is on you can hear the fan change speed every few seconds depending on the scene content. For now, I've just turned ImageAI off. I might just add some sound deadening material near the projector. The key is going to be to make it quiet without suffocating the projector and without making the whole thing an eyesore.

Again - I'm keeping the projector - despite the fan noise and the keystoning. I'm anxious to find some more time so that I can actually go and watch some movies on it. I haven't been this excited about a projector for a while.

Najeeb

pglover19

02-16-06, 06:31 PM

Can some post there Motorola 6412 Phase III configuration Settings. I'm not sure what resolution (1080i, 720p, etc) setting to select, as well as the 4.3 override setting. Please post your entire configuration setting menu....

myapplebuddy

02-16-06, 06:42 PM

Projectorguy1

02-16-06, 06:58 PM

Greetings!

For those of you who are having trouble with the offset:

If you can "tilt" the top of the screen out a few inches (doesnt take much to equal the projection angle, since the screen height to projector distance ratio is low), it will "square up" the image on the screen. I have done this, and I actually prefer it this way, because the angle of the screen is not too noticable, and the screen is actually oriented more towards the viewer whose eyes are below the mid point of the screen.

Jerry

Dragon Reborn

02-16-06, 07:15 PM

eclipse98

02-16-06, 07:22 PM

Approximately how much screen tilt would be needed to move a screen 87"x49" up by 6"? (ceiling mount with tilted pj and no keystone)

Depends how far away from the screen your PJ is mounted.

eclipse98

02-16-06, 07:36 PM

pglover19

02-16-06, 07:42 PM

I am trying to find a trigger relay plug for the Optoma HD72 projector. The size is 2.1mm inner diameter (I.D), and 5.15mm outer diameter (O.D). I am not able to find such a plug at Radio Shack with these dimensions. Some of the other Optoma projectors (H79, H78) uses a Size H (1.3mm I.D, 3.5mm O.D) - Coaxial DC Power Plug that can be purchased at Radio Shack (Part # 274-1571).

Raul GS

02-16-06, 07:48 PM

myapplebuddy

02-16-06, 07:52 PM

Now that everybody has pretty good idea about HD72 performance, what do you think is the best screen for it ?

Myapplebuddy is using Carada Brilliant white with 1.4 gain and he seems to be having most of the "white crush problems" with HD72. With HD being such a light cannon what kind of screen should match it best ?

Guitarman has Graywolf with 1.8 gain, but with ceiling mount gain goes down to about 1.0 (I heard) -- can low gain or grey screen material be the best match to tweak "white crush" problem yet leave the desired black level untouched?

If you own HD72 please speak up on your screen and how badly do you see white level problem. If you don't own HD72 but have a good idea on good screen match, let everybody know :)

What do you think ?

Thanks, Davie.
Just to avoid confusion, we should stop referring to the whites issue as a "white crush" problem because it's not. I wasn't completely sure about what white crush looked like when I called it that, but now as I understand it white crush is when white and near white objects sort of blend together so there's a lack of detail. That's not what's happening with the HD72. It would probably be best described as "overdriven" whites, where they seem to slightly overpower everything else on the screen. I think guitarman did mention that the whites were a bit "hot" with his calibrated HD72 and I think his wife noticed it too. If you look at his original screenshots he posted in the HD72 review & screenshots (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=643075&page=1&pp=30) forum you can get somewhat of an idea of what I'm seeing. Look at the brightest areas in the Gladiator shots and you'll see what I'm talking about. Just a note, however, that those screenshots make the problem seem much worse than it is. The whites I'm getting aren't as "hot" as they look on his screenshots, but I wonder if his digital camera exagerated the contrast, which is usually the case. I would also be interested to hear what the other HD72 owners are seeing with their screens. You would think that my "Brilliant White" screen would be a terrible choice for a projector with "overdriven" whites issues, but I think the name is deceiving. The Brilliant White screen from Carada is simply a 1.4 gain white screen, similar to the Stewart Studiotek 130 (which is 1.3 gain).

myapplebuddy

02-16-06, 07:58 PM

Considering that Optoma has nothing to do with bulb design, and that they are having some troubles with their other projectors (i.e. their cooling designs may have some issues), this is highly unlikely.
I just like to fool myself into thinking that the HD72 will be the all time bulb life champion of projectors. If Tom's measurements are correct, that should mean that after 500 hours the lumen output should only drop by 4%!! And after 3000 hours it would only be down by 24%!! I know that this is highly unlikely and stupid to think, but WHAT IF? We could be on the verge of greatness here!

guitarman

02-16-06, 08:07 PM

The best place to measure is at the screen distance and center. The reason I say my meter is accurate is before WSR did a review on the H79 I posted some light reading numbers on the H79. In the review by Greg Rodgers he posted the exact same light reading level with his reference equipment. So I get a kick stating I got a reference light meter for $100. :)

Speaking of screens for the HD72. I'll bet a Stewart Grayhawk would be great if you want to spend allot of money. The Graywolf is similar but you have to get use to the texture, I did.

Dalite has a gray screen but you'll have to buy a fixed moderatly expensive model. Dalites gray shows waves non tensioned. Another option is the lowly dalite Mat White pull down, I found mat white doesn't show waves in video similar to the HP an Graywolf.

kktx

02-16-06, 10:05 PM

You would think that my "Brilliant White" screen would be a terrible choice for a projector with "overdriven" whites issues, but I think the name is deceiving. The Brilliant White screen from Carada is simply a 1.4 gain white screen, similar to the Stewart Studiotek 130 (which is 1.3 gain).

Given your overall satisfaction and your lack of full light control during the day, I don't think it's a bad choice, but wonder in the room that I'm designing (where we have complete light control) whether the Carada Classic Cinema White might be a better match. I realize that the perfect choice might be the High Contrast Grey, but I'm a little wary of going with a 0.8 gain screen. Perhaps the 1.0 gain CW would be the optimal compromise among the Carada screens.

I would certainly love to hear if anyone else has paired this screen with the HD72.

KK

Najeeb

02-16-06, 10:32 PM

Just to avoid confusion, we should stop referring to the whites issue as a "white crush" problem because it's not. I wasn't completely sure about what white crush looked like when I called it that, but now as I understand it white crush is when white and near white objects sort of blend together so there's a lack of detail. That's not what's happening with the HD72. It would probably be best described as "overdriven" whites, where they seem to slightly overpower everything else on the screen. I think guitarman did mention that the whites were a bit "hot" with his calibrated HD72 and I think his wife noticed it too. If you look at his original screenshots he posted in the HD72 review & screenshots (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=643075&page=1&pp=30) forum you can get somewhat of an idea of what I'm seeing. Look at the brightest areas in the Gladiator shots and you'll see what I'm talking about. Just a note, however, that those screenshots make the problem seem much worse than it is. The whites I'm getting aren't as "hot" as they look on his screenshots, but I wonder if his digital camera exagerated the contrast, which is usually the case. I would also be interested to hear what the other HD72 owners are seeing with their screens. You would think that my "Brilliant White" screen would be a terrible choice for a projector with "overdriven" whites issues, but I think the name is deceiving. The Brilliant White screen from Carada is simply a 1.4 gain white screen, similar to the Stewart Studiotek 130 (which is 1.3 gain).

The 'overdriven white' issue sounds like it could be related to the color wheel. I read somewhere that the HD72 has a RGBRGBW color wheel. Normally you only see the white segment on presentation projectors. Anyone know which modes use the white segment?

In an earlier post I complained about the noise level but I just saw another unit and it was nearly silent. I may have a unit with a bad fan or a noisy color wheel.

Najeeb

Uatatoka

02-16-06, 10:41 PM

Here's some more eye candy of the HD72. This is not intended to be a comparison between the Z2 and HD72, just thought you might like to see the differences. I didn't get the camera tripod perfectly level which is why the shots are a little off-axis, so sorry about that.
Enjoy!!

The first is a 720p HDTV snapshot of the Superbowl:
HD72
http://i49.imagethrust.com/t/268401/hd72gohawks.jpg (http://i49.imagethrust.com/images/17P3/view-image/hd72--seahawks-not-so-superbowl-hdtv-720p-hr10-250-component.html)
Z2
http://i50.imagethrust.com/t/268461/z2gohawks.jpg (http://i50.imagethrust.com/images/17Q1/view-image/z2--gohawks.html)

The 2nd is a 720p upscaled DVD (Star Wars 3) via Oppo over DVI:
HD72
http://i45.imagethrust.com/t/268403/hd72sw3.jpg (http://i45.imagethrust.com/images/17P5/view-image/hd72--star-wars-episode-3-720p-oppo941-dvi.html)
Z2
http://i47.imagethrust.com/t/268463/z2sw3.jpg (http://i47.imagethrust.com/images/17Q3/view-image/z2--sw3.html)

The 3rd is a challenging white detail photo I took off a pier in Durban, South Africa last Sept. It highlights the white crush in both projectors. I used a Canon Rebel XT 8MP digital SLR. I've included the original, and these screenshots were taken with the same camera to take it out of the equation. The shot was taken at noon and was really bright that day.
Original photo
http://i45.imagethrust.com/t/267504/surfwhitecrushreference.jpg (http://i45.imagethrust.com/images/17AA/reality-and-real-world/surf---white-crush-test---reference.html)
HD72
http://i45.imagethrust.com/t/268402/hd72noonsurf.jpg (http://i45.imagethrust.com/images/17P4/view-image/hd72--high-noon-surf-16%3A10-htpc-dvi.html)
Z2
http://i50.imagethrust.com/t/268462/z2noonsurf.jpg (http://i50.imagethrust.com/images/17Q2/view-image/z2--noonsurf.html)

The last is one of my favorite photos from my trip to Africa. It was taken at dusk. Notice the additional vertical resolution of the HD72 16:10 vs. the traditional 16:9 of the Z2.
Original
http://i41.imagethrust.com/t/267505/cheetahref.jpg (http://i41.imagethrust.com/images/17AB/reality-and-real-world/cheetah-reference.html)
HD72
http://i48.imagethrust.com/t/268400/hd72cheetahs.jpg (http://i48.imagethrust.com/images/17P2/view-image/hd72--cheetahs-16%3A10-htpc-dvi.html)
Z2 http://i48.imagethrust.com/t/268460/z2cheetahs.jpg (http://i48.imagethrust.com/images/17Q0/view-image/z2--cheetahs.html)

The surf shot highlights the white crush (slight loss of bright white detail compared to the original photo) if you look right beyond the surfers left hand where the wave is breaking. The Z2 and HD72 both lose some of the detail of the original. The white of the HD72 is definitely brighter and more intense.

The brightness of the HD72 for my smaller screen size is a little intense for my tastes- which is why I am upgrading to the H78DC3. I could have gone with the Mits HC3000 without the white segment in the color wheel, but I like how the Optoma's give you an option to go to a 2.35:1 constant height screen without an external scaler. The constant height setup will probably be my next upgrade after the theater budget recovers from this big projector upgrade.

It's clearly time to get the Z2 serviced - it's dusty and the panels are discoloring due to heat (bad air filter design).

Gear:
Hughes HR10-250 DirecTV HD-DVR 720p Component
Oppo OPDV971H FW rev. OP971-D-1111B, Brightness -3, CCS off
HTPC 1280x768 @ 60Hz over DVI
84" image projected onto 94" DIY fixed screen (gain = 1, matte white)

pglover19

02-16-06, 10:58 PM

I have the Moto PIII and I have it set to 720P output with 4:3 override OFF. Since it's a 720P projector you definitely want the output to be 720P, otherwise the cable box will scale everything to 1080i and then the projector has to re-scale it back to 720P. The idea is to keep the signal processing to a minimum. The 4:3 override setting you can play around with until you find the setting that you like the most. I prefer it OFF.

On my Moto PIII HDTV cable box, to output in 720, the 4:3 override setting has to be set to Stretch in order to display the image in the 45 X 80 (92" diagonal screen) viewing area. This also applies to the 1080i and 480P setting. Am I missing something here....

lakingsx213

02-16-06, 11:19 PM

Well I took the plunge....

I couldn't take it anymore going back and forth between waiting for the IN76, watching other people enjoying the HD72 or thinking about upgrading to the H78DC3.

I have a feeling the IN76 isn't going to be out anytime in the near future and I've already been waiting over 6 months to upgrade. If I hold out any longer I might as well hold out for 1080P lol. It's time to start enjoying movies now instead of waiting for the next model. My Movies, TV and especially Xbox 360 will be very happy with me. I'm excited to finally get some decent gaming time in especially with a 720p native PJ.

..moving from a native 4:3 to a native 16x9 screen is going to be great!

I'm going to try and use my whole 133" screen and considering the HD72 sounds like one beast of a light cannon I think it might be my best bet at filling that screen and making it look great at this price level.

I'm upgrading from an X1 caliber (800x600) PJ so I think I'll be more than happy with it.

My HD72 is hopefully coming Sat. Morning so I'll try and post some info and impressions this weekend if all goes well. It's a long weekend of play time with the holiday...

smithfarmer

02-16-06, 11:32 PM

I'm amazed at how horrible the Z2 looks. I hope for your sake that it looked 100 times better when it was new. With that washed out hazy look, it's no wonder you are looking to upgrade. ;)

Nice "cheetah with cubs" shot. Very cool. That alone would make the trip quite memorable. Do you see how cold that shot looks on the HD72 though? The colors all look wrong. The dirt path in particular, has a definite blueish cast to it. What temp setting are you using?

The surfer shot exemplifies the blown out white detail in the HD72. Compared to the reference shot, there is quite a bit of detail that can't be seen.

Uatatoka

02-17-06, 12:19 AM

Hi Smithfarmer,

The Z2 looked much better new, but never as good the HD72.

The cold colors could be calibrated out, I only had a few hours with it though (projectorpeople return policy). I just used tom/guitarmans settings but they obviously didn't match up well with my PC DVI output.

Yes, the white crush was disconcerting as expected from earlier screenshots. I guess there has to be some compromise when building a hybrid business/theater projector - it is cost effective however.

This was just a minor flaw of an otherwise outstanding machine.

Glad you liked the cheetah shot! Being that close to a wild cheetah was exhilerating.

digital_dilemma

02-17-06, 01:29 AM

[QUOTE=Uatatoka]

The brightness of the HD72 for my smaller screen size is a little intense for my tastes- which is why I am upgrading to the H78DC3. QUOTE]

Before you do that, and I don't disagree with your choice of the H78DC3, let me just say that the white crush on the H72 can be overcome with a simple tweak of the service menu. Before you ask how, I haven't had a chance to get my hands on one yet. I'm friends with the Optoma rep (we used to work together schlepping another brand of projectors) and he's getting me a demo deal. I'll play with it some. I have friends at TI in the DLP division who'll get me the service codes and then I'll play with it. I have yet to find a projector that with a little tweak of the gamma controls and black level couldn't overcome white crush.

myapplebuddy

02-17-06, 01:36 AM

...let me just say that the white crush on the H72 can be overcome with a simple tweak of the service menu. Before you ask how, I haven't had a chance to get my hands on one yet. I'm friends with the Optoma rep (we used to work together schlepping another brand of projectors) and he's getting me a demo deal. I'll play with it some. I have friends at TI in the DLP division who'll get me the service codes and then I'll play with it. I have yet to find a projector that with a little tweak of the gamma controls and black level couldn't overcome white crush.
If you are right and you can find a way to fix the whites issue using a service menu tweak, then you would be my new hero. With the whites issue fixed, in my opinion the HD72 would be a perfect projector (taking price into consideration, of course). Make us proud! :D

myapplebuddy

02-17-06, 01:43 AM

Uatatoka,
Thanks for those outstanding pics that demonstrate the absolute dominance of the HD72 over the Z2, as well as the fact that there is white crush happening after all with the HD72. I hadn't noticed it on regular HDTV/DVD viewing but with the original photo to compare it to it looks much more noticable.

On a random side note, it's so odd that you posted pictures from South Africa and specifically from Durban because I'm going there in 3 weeks! We're going to visit my wife's family in South Africa, and we'll be spending time in Cape Town, Durban, Richards Bay, and JoBurg while we're there. What game park was that Cheetah picture taken in? Or was it at one of those "Cheetah Project" type places? Wherever it is, I want to go visit it while we're there!

Thanks again for all the great screen shots!

fleaman

02-17-06, 01:58 AM

Yeah, absolutely fabulous shots of the Cheetahs, that must of been fantastic, such beautiful animals.

(Can you tell am a Cat person :) )

Even though the colors were off on the HD72 (cold as mentioned), it still looks quite amazing. Very good screen shots....not an easy task.

Fleaman

eclipse98

02-17-06, 01:58 AM

Speaking of screens for the HD72. I'll bet a Stewart Grayhawk would be great if you want to spend allot of money. The Graywolf is similar but you have to get use to the texture, I did.

Dalite has a gray screen but you'll have to buy a fixed moderatly expensive model. Dalites gray shows waves non tensioned. Another option is the lowly dalite Mat White pull down, I found mat white doesn't show waves in video similar to the HP an Graywolf.

Guitarman, thanks for advice. I see that you feel like gray screen is a good match for HD72 which I can understand why -- it is definitely going to bring down whites and enhance blacks at the same time. I believe gray screen is going to mute colors a little bit too.

But what about gain, in totally controlled light environment is having gain >1 going to affect the image -- I mean with HD72 bright so bright do you need a gain of >1 ?

Carada has High Contrast Gray screen with 0.8 gain -- can it be THE SCREEN for HDt2 ?

Thanks, Davie.

eclipse98

02-17-06, 02:03 AM

Before you do that, and I don't disagree with your choice of the H78DC3, let me just say that the white crush on the H72 can be overcome with a simple tweak of the service menu. Before you ask how, I haven't had a chance to get my hands on one yet. I'm friends with the Optoma rep (we used to work together schlepping another brand of projectors) and he's getting me a demo deal. I'll play with it some. I have friends at TI in the DLP division who'll get me the service codes and then I'll play with it. I have yet to find a projector that with a little tweak of the gamma controls and black level couldn't overcome white crush.

That would be absolutely fantastic !!! :D

eclipse98

02-17-06, 02:08 AM

The brightness of the HD72 for my smaller screen size is a little intense for my tastes- which is why I am upgrading to the H78DC3.

Uatatoka, thanks for those beautiful pictures -- look absolutely amazing, I really did not expect them to be that good. Particularly on DYI screen. Did you think about going for a bigger screen, 84" seems a little small for such a bright projector.

Davie.

fleaman

02-17-06, 03:31 AM

The one thing that concerns me with the H78DC3 is the brightness, not out of the box, but after 500 hours or so of viewing. I'm not sure if the bulb is similar to the H79, but many people have reported that the H79's bulb loses brightness fairly quickly. If I lost 50% of brightness on the H78DC3 I'm afraid I'd be out of luck for daytime viewing of any kind. Actually the one great use for BC I've found is to overcome major ambient light issues during the daytime. This morning my wife and I were watching a show that was way too dim with the amount of light that was present in the room, but I used BC on setting 5 and it helped a lot. With that amount of ambient light present, I'm not as concerned with perfect PQ as much as being able to actually see what's happening on the screen. For me that's the major reason, other than the 1.5x cost (with the rebates and stuff) of the H78DC3, that I'm sticking with the HD72.

Yeah, I just read this thread on H79 (same as H78DC3) lamp problems http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=641904 and there definitely is a serious issue that doesn't seem to have been officially addressed. Unless dropping the H78/H79 series projectors was the solution? Some hinted that the whisper quite operation of these projectors might be damaging the lamps due to not enough air flow cooling. To add more to this conspiracy theory, the newer more expensive HD7300 is being listed with a much higher operating noise spec....more airflow for the lamp??

Yikes, I might just have to see how this settles out.

Maybe that's why they are giving free lamps away with H78DC3 purchases!

Fleaman

TzungILin

02-17-06, 03:47 AM

Uatatoka,

Great screen shots and mini shootout!

Let me discuss the following issues that may concern you:

White crush
The internal setting should not have white crush as default. If you are simply using Guitarman's setting, each setup is slightly different, his best setting may not fits your setup. White clipping or black level crush that could not be recovered by proper calibration is a design flaw. I've tested and tuned HD72 in the labs, it should have the full range that one can differntiate between 100IRE and 99IRE or between 0IRE and 1IRED with a proper tuning. In order to find the root cause for the white clipping in your photo, let me ask the followings:

1. First, set all enhancement to zero (Brilliant Color, True Vivid, Contrast, Brightness), Choose the PC degamma (2.2).
2. Was it from a PC connection? (I think so, judging from the 1280x768 full pixels), was it DVI? if yes, do you have DMW (Display Mate for Window, www.displaymate.com) software? or use AVIA DVD via any software DVD player. Try to tune the "Contrast" so that you can see the difference between 100 IRE and 99 IRE. Or simply use the surf photo, decrease contrast until you can see all the white details.
3. Set the black level, again DMW or AVIA, tune the "Brightness" till you can see 0 IRE and 1 IRE.
4. you may need to go back and forth between step 2 and 3 until both are satisfied.
5. Then, please look at the surf photo again to see if the white crush is there.
6. Since we are speaking of PC, please also check the overlay of the graphic card so that it is in normal positions.
7. If you can see the various levels in DMW, but not in the photos, then some setting of the PC or the photo tool may need to be checked.
8. Once you can see all levels, then you can gradually add enhancement (different degamma, Brilliant Color, True Vivid, saturation, ...) and check the level again, modify contrast/brightness to maintain all levels seen, back and forth until you find a good setting where you have the enhancement you like and the projector can reveal all levels.

If you still cannot see all the grey steps, then maybe the unit is faulty, please call Optoma USA for further assitance.

There is this test DVD produced in Japan that has patterns for 100/99/98 IRE and 0/1/2 IRE. With proper OSD tweaking (not necessiarly entering service mode like digital_dilemma suggested), one should be able to reveal all grey steps from 0 to 100 IRE. The DVD can be found here: HiVi Cast (http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/(simple,with_comments)/detailview.html?KEY=HVCA-1)

Color temperature difference can be tuned to match that of the photo, if you select a color temperature that is closer to your photo, then enter the RGB gain/bias submenu, and tweak to the desired color temperature that matches or get close to the original photo.

Please try it and see if you can get rid of the white clipping issue, let me know! :)

BTW, if you feel it's too bright for your taste, maybe try ND filter to get the brightness down and better saturations? I havn't tried any ND filter yet, so I can't help you out here.

kktx

02-17-06, 12:16 PM

Guitarman, thanks for advice. I see that you feel like gray screen is a good match for HD72 which I can understand why -- it is definitely going to bring down whites and enhance blacks at the same time. I believe gray screen is going to mute colors a little bit too.

But what about gain, in totally controlled light environment is having gain >1 going to affect the image -- I mean with HD72 bright so bright do you need a gain of >1 ?

Carada has High Contrast Gray screen with 0.8 gain -- can it be THE SCREEN for HDt2 ?

Exactly what I said a few posts back! :)

myapplebuddy

02-17-06, 12:32 PM

On my Moto PIII HDTV cable box, to output in 720, the 4:3 override setting has to be set to Stretch in order to display the image in the 45 X 80 (92" diagonal screen) viewing area. This also applies to the 1080i and 480P setting. Am I missing something here....
720P & 1080i sources will always fill your 16:9 screen because they are native 16:9 aspect ratio. The 4:3 override setting has nothing to do with those sources. It only affects 4:3 aspect ratio material (standard def TV). If you want the image to fill the screen no matter what material (16:9 or 4:3) you're watching, then set the 4:3 override to stretch. I prefer to watch 4:3 material in it's native aspect ratio, which leaves black bars on the sides of the picture, kind of like how DVD's have black bars above and below the picture. I don't like the "fat people" effect that happens when you stretch a 4:3 image to fill the 16:9 screen.

eclipse98

02-17-06, 12:38 PM

Exactly what I said a few posts back! :)

Oh I just copied your post -- didn't want to do all this typing :) .

Uatatoka

02-17-06, 01:10 PM

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the compliments on the pics.

Myapplebuddy: I'm jealous! I'd love to go back for more. The cheetah shot was taken in Botswana in the Kalahari. We did an 8-day guided safari through ccafrica.com in addition to staying with a college buddy who lives in Durban. Feel free to email for more about this and I can even send you a CD w/ fell rez shots. This goes for anyone who's interested.

Eclipse98: I have to stick to an 84"-94" screen due to low ceiling height (7.5') and fixed offset. A 0.8 gain gray screen or ND filter is probably in order to tame the beast. This projector would be awesome for a 120"+ screen if you can swing it.

Fleaman: You bring up a good point with the lamp issue. I might end up keeping the HD72, as my Z2 had similar issues as the some of the H78/H79 being too quiet and running hot. The Darkchip3 H78 has got a spell on me though - if the HD72 is this good what does the H78/H79 bring to the table?! I'll probably do an advanced exchange and make my decision then after reviewing the H78.

TzungILin: Thanks for the great tips on calibrating the PC. Guitarman's setting's worked great for my video sources, but the PC still needs fine tuning. It seems perfectly reasonable that with some tweaking to the gamma per digitaldillema's path or your recommendations that this can be brought under control. I try to avoid service menu's with expensive pieces of equipment when at all possible. I wish I had more time to evaluate and still avoid the 15% restocking fee (>4hrs. on the bulb will cost me 15% = $300) I may try all these tools you use with the Z2 first and then do a quick cal on the HD72. I'll post more shots after that.

Glad you all enjoyed the shots. It feels good to utilize all the expensive camera equipment (I spent twice as much on lenses after buying the camera body). I purchased them for the once-in-a-lifetime Africa trip haven't used it nearly enough as I'd like.

I'm in Whistler all weekend, so I'll probably get some more pics up Monday or Tuesday after I try and tune out the white crush a little more :)

Cheers

fleaman

02-17-06, 01:53 PM

Fleaman: You bring up a good point with the lamp issue. I might end up keeping the HD72, as my Z2 had similar issues as the some of the H78/H79 being too quiet and running hot. The Darkchip3 H78 has got a spell on me though - if the HD72 is this good what does the H78/H79 bring to the table?! I'll probably do an advanced exchange and make my decision then after reviewing the H78.

As good and/or better as the H78DC3 might be over the HD72 in the pic quality dept, just how much are we willing to deal with on a possible design problem with lamp cooling issues? It seemed like there were some in that thread who were going through lamps every few hundred hours. Some of them were giving up and getting rid of their H79’s!! Maybe TzungILin can enlighten us with some official word on the culprit or solution....even though we're talking about a discontinued Optoma here?

I can't imagine Optoma dropped the H78/79 line due to this (crazy conspiracy theory). I would think, that if it was the culprit, it would be an relatively easy task to either increase the fan speed (firmware, increase voltage, etc.) or replace the fan with a higher flow unit. Unless the fan they used is a custom design/size?

Could it really just be a bad batch of lamps?

Fleaman

Uatatoka

02-17-06, 01:55 PM

I have a great idea for any projector manufacturers out there.

Why not at the end of the projector lens allow for a standard size (52mm, 77mm, etc) screw in type filter used for all professional camera lenses? The parallelism between projectors and photography is uncanny.

They filters are relatively cheap, and the filter swapping for tuning the projector to everyones different screens and rooms a breeze. You could try red, green, blue, various neutral density filters, etc.

Maybe a patent is in order!?

fleaman

02-17-06, 01:59 PM

Uatatoka (Mike),

I would very much like a full resolution shot of the Cheetah w/cubs, if possible.

I can't imagine you would have a better shot of Cheetah's than the one you posted? That one is hard to out do.

I tried PM'ing you, but you have it disabled.

You can PM me and I can give you my email address....you can just send it that way. Or I can give you my mailing address it a CD is easier.

Thanks,

Fleaman

Lefty4

02-17-06, 02:06 PM

I just ordered my white HD 72 along with a white mount, white speakers, and white speaker mounts. Unfortunately the room where I am designing the home theater is white and I can't paint it.

I am having the hardest time finding white cables. Can anyone make suggestions for reasonably priced WHITE 25ft. HDMI, DVI and Component Cables. I know I can paint the cables and use white tubing to hide most of the cable, but since I need new cables anyway, I thought I'd try to find white ones.

Thanks.

Uatatoka

02-17-06, 02:07 PM

As good and/or better as the H78DC3 might be over the HD72 in the pic quality dept, just how much are we willing to deal with on a possible design problem with lamp cooling issues?

Replacing a bulb every 200 hours sounds horrible - I don't care how good the picture looks. You got me thinking twice about this decision...

I wonder if you can tweak the service menu to increase the fan speed at the sacrifice of a little more noise. I certainly wouldn't be opposed to that. I think some due diligence on my part in the H78/79 threads is in order.

eclipse98

02-17-06, 02:17 PM

Replacing a bulb every 200 hours sounds horrible - I don't care how good the picture looks. You got me thinking twice about this decision...

Can it be an issue that only people who do have this problem (bad PJ batch) post about it therefore creating perception that it is widespread ?

For whatever it's worth, we really don't know if this problem may be present in HD72 as well -- I really wish it is not as I am about to buy one (waiting for Art's review which I have no doubt will be excellent).

Thanks, Davie.

BTW. Does HD72 come in only white color ?

Uatatoka

02-17-06, 02:20 PM

Hi Fleaman,

Email me at (email removed to avoid evil spam bots). I can email you the cheetah shot or mail you a CD with even more shots no problem. I'm a little behind the times wrt PMing.

Lefty4 - Try Lindy.com for high quality white DVI/HDMI cabling and pacificcable.com for white component cables.

Mike

fleaman

02-17-06, 02:46 PM

Can it be an issue that only people who do have this problem (bad PJ batch) post about it therefore creating perception that it is widespread ?

For whatever it's worth, we really don't know if this problem may be present in HD72 as well -- I really wish it is not as I am about to buy one (waiting for Art's review which I have no doubt will be excellent).

That's always possible. But, on the flip side you have to consider all of those having problems that don't post on the net, or not this particular AVS forum, or post at all anywhere. Then there are those who may have not noticed the gradual, but drastic (not normal) bulb dimness over (a short?) time. I've had my H31 for 7 months now and still only have about 260hrs on it. While in theory it should be dimmer now, I couldn't tell you...it was 7 months ago!

Did you read this thread> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=641904

For these forums, it seems like a quite a bit of people are having problems, seems to be systemic. Remember, there are many w/problems that are not posting, 'cos they don't know about these forums or care.

And another thing: The H79 was the flagship projector that is more likely to be installed by pros in high-end rich peoples houses. Those people don't really know about projectors and don't post here in general.

Fleaman

Lefty4

02-17-06, 04:00 PM

Uatatoka - thanks for the input on the white cables. Lindy has an ivory DVI cable that I will order and Pacificcable has white compenent cables. Now I just need to find white HDMI cables. Any other ideas?

HiHoStevo

02-17-06, 04:11 PM

Did you try MonoPrice for the HDMI cable?

Lefty4

02-17-06, 04:59 PM

I checked Monoprice but black HDMI cable only.

Mikenificent1

02-18-06, 05:46 AM

I'm not sure if it's the screen but it could be. Although in all my readings about the Carada Brilliant White and the Stewart Studiotek 130 (similar to the Carada BW) I haven't heard any complaints about issues with white levels. Maybe I'll order some grey screen samples - I know about the Optoma greywolf and the Stewart Firehawk. Any other suggestions? Which companies send free samples?

Check out the Severtson High Contrast; Greywolf and Firehawk have sparklies (gag)...

lakingsx213

02-18-06, 01:48 PM

eclipse98

02-18-06, 02:11 PM

Well I just received my HD72...

Going to do my impressions before I begin to celing mount the unit...

I will try the unit out on my full 133" screen and see if that screen size works better for the white issues that some people have.

I'm not a pro (far from it) at configuration so I'm just going to use guitarman's settings and maybe an eye tweak here and there.

More info later...and perhaps some screenshots if I can get them to come out correctly :)

Lakingsx213, congrats on your new toy, I am very interested to see how bright the image will be on 133" screen, I believe you mentioned it is Da-Lite ?

Here is a nice thread on how to take pictures of your HT with some good tips:

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=413435

Looking forward to your pictures, Davie.

lakingsx213

02-18-06, 02:48 PM

Lakingsx213, congrats on your new toy, I am very interested to see how bright the image will be on 133" screen, I believe you mentioned it is Da-Lite ?

Here is a nice thread on how to take pictures of your HT with some good tips:

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=413435

Looking forward to your pictures, Davie.

Thanks, I'll check that thread out and see if I can get the pictures to come out good.

Yes I's a 133" Da-Lite Cinema Vision (1.3 gain) Perm-Wall screen.

chrisinla

02-18-06, 07:06 PM

I checked Monoprice but black HDMI cable only.
lefty, have you considered spray paint? just a thought....

lakingsx213

02-18-06, 08:16 PM

First I would like to start off by saying “Wow” this is one amazing projector. This may be a little misleading because I’m coming from a X1 caliber (800x600) PJ so I’m jumping ahead 2 full resolutions and moving to a 16x9 native PJ. That being said if you’re currently using an X1 class PJ and your thinking about an upgrade now may be the time.

My Setup:

Screen = 133” Da-Lite Cinema Vision (1.3 gain) screen. I was only projecting about 128” of the full 133” screen for this test. I’m thinking I won’t hit 133” while the PJ is on the floor, I think I’ll need to use the ceiling mount to achieve this because of the offset.

PJ = Optoma HD72 (of course)

DVD Player = Toshiba SD-4980 Upconverting DVD/DivX Player set to 720P (Oppo coming soon ;) )

Xbox 360 set to 720P

Initial Impressions:

I started out by running through a few scenes from my Spiderman superbit DVD. I used the factory default settings for this first pass (and to let the PJ warm-up). I compared each scene from Ix’s pictures so I could do a real world comparison and I can tell you those screenshots don’t do this PJ justice.

The white issue in Ix’s pictures (the globe losing detail because of the white) was not happening at all in my setup. The globe was fully detailed and I couldn’t see any loss of detail in that scene or any of the other scenes. The columns in the lab scene looked great and were not too bright.

I then ran though a few scenes on the Revenge of the Sith DVD and thought things looked great. Blacks were plenty dark and a whole lot better than my previous setup, although personally I think they could look darker but not by too much.

After that I ran through a few Xbox 360 games to see how the PJ handled games and fast moving scenes. My jaw dropped at the detail that this PJ displayed my Xbox 360 games and menu. The colors were vibrant and the brightness was great for the size screen I’m using. I played a little geometry wars and was shocked to find out that there were several details I never saw playing this game on my 46” Sony HD RPTV, although I sit pretty far back from this screen :D . PGR was screaming out detail on this PJ, amazing.

SDE – I’m used to my 800X600 PJ displaying over a 120” image and I start to see a major SDE about 12 feet back from the screen. I found that SDE was a non issue with the HD72. I have to get to about couple feet away from the screen before I was able to see a SDE and even then it was hard to see. This is really amazing for me since SDE was such an issue with my last PJ.

I took plenty of screenshots but none of them could even show you a picture at ½ the quality as seeing it in person. Most of them came out blurry and I refuse to show any of them because of how poor they came out. I did it in kind of a rush so I’ll try and take some quality pictures later on.

I’ll be tweaking it more and playing around further tomorrow after I go through the Avia configuration. I just set the system up with Tom/Guitarman’s settings so I’ll see how that turns out.

By default BC is set to 3 so I want to setup the system in Avia with BC turned off to see if I have the same feelings.

This PJ is extremely quiet compared to what I’m use to, I had the volume in my room set to about ½ as loud as I usually run it, while talking on the phone and I had to really concentrate in order to hear the PJ fans. That was me standing right next to it so about 5ft 10in away from the fans. There is no way I could hear it at my normal viewing volume.

Final Initial Thoughts:

I’m not what you would call a typical AVS user so my opinion’s are more of the everyday (never seen an ISF calibrated unit) user. Please don’t take any of my comments out of content I know I’m no where near a professional. Also remember that I’m jumping 2 full resolution levels, most of you have a 4805/H31 480p 16x9 native PJ or better already so I would expect your jaw’s wouldn’t drop nearly as much as my jaw dropped.

More on this later as I might end up running through some more stuff tonight, I’m getting my second wind lol.

eclipse98

02-18-06, 08:56 PM

jeremyv

02-18-06, 09:06 PM

eclipse98

02-18-06, 09:37 PM

Does anyone know a retailer in the Atlanta or Chattanooga area that has this projector on display? I am really interested in this projector, but I don't know if I can talk myself into getting one without seeing it first hand. Thanks

Jeremy

I think Optoma is mainly selling through online retailers. I know it's not something you want to hear, but I think they just want to keep their costs down to be able to deliver such a nice machine at this cost. Other competitors PJs with the same chip are selling at rather significant price premium and have all sorts of distribution dealers where you can see the demo. I did however find it very difficult to find a dealer to demo cheaper PJs, majority of them will try to sell you something expensive.

So I think the best way to buy Optoma is find a nice online dealer with good return policy (don't expect 30 days no q asked) and give it a try (that's what I am going to do) -- read through this thread and will find those dealers.

There is a link to retailers on Optoma site, but I am not sure how good it is:

http://www.optomausa.com/retailers.asp

For one it lists Best Buy as authorized retailer, but last time I was there they did not have any Optoma PJs :mad: .

HTH, Davie.

myapplebuddy

02-18-06, 09:41 PM

I took plenty of screenshots but none of them could even show you a picture at ½ the quality as seeing it in person. Most of them came out blurry and I refuse to show any of them because of how poor they came out. I did it in kind of a rush so I’ll try and take some quality pictures later on.
I can't seem to get screenshots perfect either, which is why I haven't posted any more since my initial ones. My problem isn't that they're blurry because I'm setting my camera on a stable surface, but I can't seem to get the colors to look accurate and contrast is exaggerated. I want the screenshot to actually look like what I'm seeing on the screen, because if it doesn't then I don't know what the point is. I have a fairly nice Canon PowerShot camera but right now I wish I had a professional camera so I could adjust the settings just right. It's a shame I can't post shots that do the HD72 justice because much of the HD stuff I've been watching lately looks spectacular!

Paulidan

02-19-06, 02:03 AM

Yes it may very well be that the best product is now on its way out to pasture, being replaced by more expensive but less-capable models....lord knows its happened in the past in just about every area......but you also have to stop and ask if its worth it in the long run. It would be like someone buying one of those NEC light-cannon DLP units that sold for like $10 grand, and today even tho they are discontinued were like $3 to $4 grand...the 4:3 one that was all the rage a few years ago.......came with an anamorphic lens for awhile. Its like yeah its a great projector, but, aren't you going to find something better for cheaper in a years time...?

it sounds like in that last bit you were describing the NEC HT1000/1100- for a short time buyers had a choice between a $500 rebate and an anamorphic lens (i chose the rebate and was very glad i did as the lens, when they finally shipped out, didn't seem to be as good as other companies $500 lenses).
i'm in the early phases now of starting to look around now for an upgrade, but i'm not seeing anything yet that is really compelling, and the only things that are, are still several thousand $'s more than i paid for my HT1K.
resolution and fancy new chips aren't really the bottom line- its how these things are implemented that determines how better or worse the image up on the wall is.
and on a $2000 projector, i would be curious as to the quality of the lens.
Arts reviews on the new Benq 8720 comment on the superior quality of the lens on the Benq as being one of the things that swayed him over the H78.

but the real reason i wanted to respond to this other post was the belief that things always get better and cheaper.
Panasonic made a couple models of kick ass dvd players several years back- they were amazingly good values- but then they dropped the DCDI, lowered the price a bit and they were no where near as good as they used to be.
While things usually get cheaper, they don't always neccesarily get better...at least not immediately.

just my $.02- take it fwiw

Jim S

02-19-06, 08:59 AM

I’m not what you would call a typical AVS user so my opinion’s are more of the everyday (never seen an ISF calibrated unit) user. Please don’t take any of my comments out of content I know I’m no where near a professional. Also remember that I’m jumping 2 full resolution levels, most of you have a 4805/H31 480p 16x9 native PJ or better already so I would expect your jaw’s wouldn’t drop nearly as much as my jaw dropped.

Nice review. I'm exactly in the same demographic as you were, looking for a value solution to replace my X1. Increased detail with less noise are what I'm looking for, so your comments are right on the mark. :cool:

eclipse98

02-19-06, 10:58 AM

It's a shame I can't post shots that do the HD72 justice because much of the HD stuff I've been watching lately looks spectacular!

Myapplebuddy, I posted a link earlier with some tips how to take pictures of HT. Don't know how good the advice is since I didn't try yet (no PJ yet) but this is the best I was able to find on AVS.

So did you finally get rid of your "white problem" ? Or you just came to terms that this is as good (or as spectacular) that 2K DLP can deliver, so "just sit back and enjoy". :)

Davie.

EEBuckeye

02-19-06, 01:59 PM

Will I have a problem with this projector if I want to put it upside down on a bookshelf? I can put 'feet' under it for airflow if needed.

dustinst22

02-19-06, 02:13 PM

Yes, I was wondering about this too. I think the concern would be whether the projector would have any issues with over heating since the heat needs to be able to dissipate through the chassis. Is the top of this projector completely flat?

It seems like placing the projector upside down on a shelf with feet would be a lot easier than installing a ceiling mount. What type of feet were you thinking of using?

My apartment complex has asbestos in the ceiling, so I am unable to mount anything into the ceiling. The only option for me is to either find a mount that can install into the wall, or simply place it upside down on a shelf (which I would much prefer).

lakingsx213

02-19-06, 02:30 PM

Can you let us know what connection you used for DVD/Xbox. DVI/HDMI or component (I am not familiar with SD-4980) ? Do you find your 128" image to be bright enough ? How far is your PJ from the screen ?

Thanks, Davie.

Connection from the Xbox 360 is the standard HD cables that come equipped with the premium package (component).

The DVD player is connected through the HDMI port.

I find the image @ 128" to be plenty bright enough for my room, though I have full control of all light in the room.

The PJ is about 18 feet back on the floor at the moment. We were finally able to get a full 133" image although we had to use the vertical lens shift (just a tad) because of the offset (otherwise I would have had to cut a couple inches out of my carpet lol). This won't be an issue when I ceiling mount the unit so I'll remove the couple notches of vertical lens shift then.

My friend came over and we calibrated the unit using Avia and replaced all of our existing configurations. BC was turned off for the calibration and just as I thought it was not needed at all. After calibration with BC turned off we still had a wonderful picture to look at and I thought overall everything looked a little better and more real. I don't think BC is needed at all for the IN76 holdouts but it is a nice feature to have if one day you bulb is a little dim or you want to play around with certain movies/games. Not needed but the more features the better I guess :)

This machine is plenty bright enough for your average user at 133" with 0 white crushing for me. Everything looked great and I couldn't see any loss of detail from what I remember however I don't have a higher end unit to compare it too :D I still wish the blacks were a little darker but that is just nit picking at the moment. The blacks are plenty dark and the only way I can tell that it's not black enough is by staring at the black bars for awhile and then looking at some black detail in Underworld. If I were to use a masking system to remove the black bars I would think the blacks were perfect.

We went through some scenes of The Incredibles, Underworld, Once upon a time in Mexico, ROTS and LOTR. All of them looked incredible for the size screen I'm using. I'm really impressed with this unit overall, colors were great, brightness seemed perfect, whites and blacks were nice, just a great experience overall I don't think I could walk into a regular movie theater anymore (except maybe a DLP theater) and not feel like I was being robbed :p

Next up I'm going to move my HD receiver in the room and see how well that comes out. I'm also going to check out the situation with my current mount and see if I can use it or not. At worst I'm hoping that all I would need is a new mounting plate.

More later from your average joe....

lakingsx213

02-19-06, 02:34 PM

Nice review. I'm exactly in the same demographic as you were, looking for a value solution to replace my X1. Increased detail with less noise are what I'm looking for, so your comments are right on the mark. :cool:

Thanks,

If your coming from the X1 you will be more than happy with this purchase. The X1 and HD72 don't belong being in the same sentence together :D

I couldn't be happier getting rid of my old unit...

lakingsx213

02-19-06, 03:04 PM

Will I have a problem with this projector if I want to put it upside down on a bookshelf? I can put 'feet' under it for airflow if needed.

Also, I am about 12 ft from the screen and would like 94" projection. Projection Central's calculator only shows a zoom of 1.0. I think the Optoma has a range for zoom that might help my situation.

Thank you!

You and dustinst22 would have a difficult time trying to do that.

First off the offset is going to be a big issue for you both. How high is your bookshelf?

Second the top of the projector is not leveled at all so placing feet under them to allow for airflow and keeping it level would be one tricky task.

The good thing is almost no heat comes from the top of the unit, it's all from the side's near the back and underneath so air flow shouldn't be too big of an issue.

I just don't think your going to be able to use a bookshelf unless it's about 8 feet high. It all depends....

pglover19

02-19-06, 03:12 PM

I am noticing a white streak line from time to time on my screen when viewing HDTV from Comcast and from DVD Source. I have the Motorola 6412 Phase III HDTV box, Oppo DVD Player, and the Da-Lite 92" diagonal High Contrast Cinema Vision screen. I am running a 33ft HDMI 24g cable (from MonoPrice) from the projector that feeds the Motorola 6412 HDTV box as well as the Oppo DVD Player. It is less noticeable when watching DVD movies at 11 foot away, but you can see it watching HDTV from 11 foot away. Can someone tell me what this is. Is it the long HDMI cable run, the projector, or the screen? Please post some things I can try so I can narrow this problem down.

angfro

02-19-06, 03:47 PM

dustinst22

02-19-06, 03:57 PM

Well, I was thinking of just installing a simple shelf into the wall and then placing the projector upside down.

However, you pointed out that the case is not level on top of the projector so this would likely produce a lot of keystone issues.

Maybe my best solution is to drill holes in the shelf large enough for small keystone adjustments and just mount the projector upside down. Hopefully this won't be too much of a pain. I used to design rear screen projection systems and I remember from experience how difficult it was to mount projectors without lens shift. Getting the projector completely level and parallel to the screen will probably be a huge pain.

eclipse98

02-19-06, 04:04 PM

I am noticing a white streak line from time to time on my screen when viewing HDTV from Comcast. I have the Motorola 6412 Phase III HDTV box, and the Da-Lite 92" diagonal High Contrast Cinema Vision screen. I am also running a 33ft HDMI 24g cable (from MonoPrice) from the projector to the Motorola 6412 HDTV box. Can someone tell me what this is. Is it the long HDMI cable run, the projector, or the screen? Please post some things I can try so I can narrow this problem down.

Pglover19, I would say if it is not happening with DVDs then it's most likely HDTV box / HDMI cable fault. Try to watch more DVDs and if you're noticing it there as well then it is PJ related. Did you try to disconnect/reconnect HDMI cable -- if cable is heavy it sometimes might get partially disconnected, I personally prefer DVI cables that can be attached with screws.

Davie.

pglover19

02-19-06, 04:15 PM

Pglover19, I would say if it is not happening with DVDs then it's most likely HDTV box / HDMI cable fault. Try to watch more DVDs and if you're noticing it there as well then it is PJ related. Did you try to disconnect/reconnect HDMI cable -- if cable is heavy it sometimes might get partially disconnected, I personally prefer DVI cables that can be attached with screws.

Davie.

I was watching a DVD about an hour ago, and noticed it while watching a DVD. It is however less noticeable than watching HDTV, but you can definitely see it from time to time. Could it be the long HDMI cable (33ft 24g)? What are some things I can try to narrow the problem down?

pglover19

02-19-06, 04:41 PM

Pglover19, I would say if it is not happening with DVDs then it's most likely HDTV box / HDMI cable fault. Try to watch more DVDs and if you're noticing it there as well then it is PJ related. Did you try to disconnect/reconnect HDMI cable -- if cable is heavy it sometimes might get partially disconnected, I personally prefer DVI cables that can be attached with screws.

Davie.

I tried disconnecting and reconnecting the HDMI cable and it did not help. I have set the Overscan setting on the projector to 3 now and this has helped. I still notice from time to time when I am about 4 foot from the screen the white streak.

guitarman

02-19-06, 05:40 PM

pglover19

02-19-06, 06:29 PM

It's common that TV signals have garbage, usually straight across the very top of the video. You know the Cinema sRGBs TV choices? Try TV it adds a good amount of overscan for just this reason.

You shouldn't see this with DVD at all. It could be the player, try another one.

I am also noticing this when I play a movie with my Oppo DVD player from time to time from 11 foot away. You have to look ready hard to notice it. It is two vertical streaks on the right and left of the screen. What could this be?

shivaji

02-19-06, 06:45 PM

I use a tv wall mount unit for my PJ from home depot that costs about $50. I attached it to the back wall inverted. You drill holes through the bottom plate of the TV shelf to match the screw holes on the PJ and attach the PJ in its inverted position. The tv mount offers a range of motion up and down and side to side and can be tightened in place.
Works quite well and will be better than a shelf I would think.

NathanC

02-19-06, 06:46 PM

I'm thinking about getting my first projector, and coming from an LCD flat panel i've learned just how important decent black levels are. Has anyone compared this projector to the Z4? The Z4's more appealing for the lens shift, but if the blacks aren't good then it's a moot point. Mounting could be an issue with the H72, though, as i live in an apartment and ceiling mounting isn't an option and i need the picture to be pretty high up. Any thoughts?

dustinst22

02-19-06, 06:59 PM

Is this the one you used, Shivaji?

ok, wont let me post a link yet. I went to the Home Depot site and found a mount called "Peerless Universal Television Wall Mount

What projector do you have? Were you able to square the image pretty easily? I might go with this. I'll wait until I get the projector to see how feasible this mount will be.

pglover19

02-19-06, 08:05 PM

It's common that TV signals have garbage, usually straight across the very top of the video. You know the Cinema sRGBs TV choices? Try TV it adds a good amount of overscan for just this reason.

You shouldn't see this with DVD at all. It could be the player, try another one.

I appears while watching DVD movies too, but not as noticeable as watching HDTV. These are vertical streaks/strips down the viewing area on both sides of the screen. This is my first projector and could this be rainbows or dead pixels that I am seeing.

smithfarmer

02-19-06, 10:45 PM

I appears while watching DVD movies too, but not as noticeable as watching HDTV. These are vertical streaks/strips down the viewing area on both sides of the screen. This is my first projector and could this be rainbows or dead pixels that I am seeing.
What kind of screen are you using?

lakingsx213

02-20-06, 12:32 AM

As soon as I am done because believe it or not I am still working on it. The Chief RPA mount and this projector need quite a bit of tweaking and some trips to Home Depot for different screws and such

Ix,

Do you remember how you got the Chief RPA mount attached to the HD72? I have a Chief universal RPA mount but I can't seem to get the bracket to match up to the screw hols on the PJ. My old PJ had a bracket that attached to the RPA universal top but that doesn't match up to anything on the HD72 that I can tell. Did you connect it to a bracket or directly to the RPA universal top?

Metalcraft

02-20-06, 02:20 AM

A year or so ago we started making "wall brackets" for projectors because of the very issues that you spoke of here in this thread. If you do a seller search for "metalcraft mounting systems" on a popular auction site you will find them.

Keep in mind that we can also custom make a wall mount for your specific needs if desired.

pglover19

02-20-06, 05:34 AM

What kind of screen are you using?

Da-Lite High Contrast Cinema Vision

Zipplemeyer

02-20-06, 08:58 AM

Many have had artifacting issues with the HCCV. Try projecting an image on just the wall and see if the problem goes away.

Moe

angfro

02-20-06, 09:58 AM

eclipse98

02-20-06, 10:27 AM

OK guys PLEASE forgive me as I am TOTALLY NEW to the world of projectors. I am interested in getting the HD72, I am also needing a pull down screen(recessed into the ceiling), I wanted one of the 106", 119" or 133" Draper Premieres, saw them on mountsandmore

Now my ceiling is only 7' 6" and from where the screen will be to the back of my room is about 18' so thats how much space I have to work with. I would like to ceiling mount it but if I have to I could mount it to the back wall lower if need be. Can anyone just give me ideas as to if this will work as far as distance/offset etc. I really know nothing about this so I could really use the help. Thankyou in advance.

Angelo

Angelo, welcome to AVS :)

You might have a problem with HD72 due to low ceiling, in 1.0 zoom it has 32% offset of the screen height. If you go with smallest of the 3 screens (106" diagonal -- 52" high) the offset (distance from center of the lens to top of the screen) will be 16.5". If you flush mount PJ to the ceiling the best you can do is 5" from center of lens to the ceiling.

So here are the numbers:

5" + 16.5" offset + 52" screen height = 73.5" from ceiling to bottom of the screen.

Your ceiling is 90" so the bottom of the screen is gonna be 16.5" from the floor (too low IMO). If you go with bigger screen then it will go even lower due to increasing offset and screen height.

You can also mount PJ on the floor if this is an option -- this way numbers will be reversed -- this way you can go with bigger screen for sure.

Let me know if you need more help, Davie.

nigel_ht

02-20-06, 10:34 AM

Your ceiling is about the same height as mine. Its a tad too short for 106" which is what I have.

For the new 720p projectors it looks like the InFocus IN76, the LG AN-110 and possibly the Sharp (I forget the offset on that one). The HC3000 has the same offset issues. The older Benq 7700 and Tosh MT700 should also work for us. Perhaps Benq and Tosh will rev those projectors with the new DMD but there's no rumors to that effect.

Nigel

angfro

02-20-06, 10:53 AM

Angelo, welcome to AVS :)

You might have a problem with HD72 due to low ceiling, in 1.0 zoom it has 32% offset of the screen height. If you go with smallest of the 3 screens (106" diagonal -- 52" high) the offset (distance from center of the lens to top of the screen) will be 16.5". If you flush mount PJ to the ceiling the best you can do is 5" from center of lens to the ceiling.

So here are the numbers:

5" + 16.5" offset + 52" screen height = 73.5" from ceiling to bottom of the screen.

Your ceiling is 90" so the bottom of the screen is gonna be 16.5" from the floor (too low IMO). If you go with bigger screen then it will go even lower due to increasing offset and screen height.

You can also mount PJ on the floor if this is an option -- this way numbers will be reversed -- this way you can go with bigger screen for sure.

Let me know if you need more help, Davie.

Thanx alot Davie for your response. Another option is I can mount it on a shelf in the back of the room. Would this be any better? Like if I mounted it say 4 ft high or so, so that it would go over heads when sitting on the couch.

Now if worse came to worse I could celing mount it. The bottom of the screen would be 16.5" from the floor is just something I would have to deal with I guess.

Now this is from the screens I was looking at, is there going to be a problem with this 12"blackdrop they state?:

Draper Premier - M1300 Premier Electric Screen - Medium to Large
Electrically operated screen with Tab Tensioning System.

* Available with a ceiling trim kit for ceiling recessed installation.
* 12" black drop is standard.

Also was looking at this screen - Draper Access / Series V

angfro

02-20-06, 11:01 AM

Lefty4

02-20-06, 11:08 AM

I believe the HD72 has a DVI-I port and so does the Oppo 971. Does this mean the only cable I can use between the two is a Single Link DVI-I cable? Are Dual Link DVD-D cables not possible?

myapplebuddy

02-20-06, 01:33 PM

Myapplebuddy, I posted a link earlier with some tips how to take pictures of HT. Don't know how good the advice is since I didn't try yet (no PJ yet) but this is the best I was able to find on AVS.

So did you finally get rid of your "white problem" ? Or you just came to terms that this is as good (or as spectacular) that 2K DLP can deliver, so "just sit back and enjoy". :)
I think that the "white problem" is actually more of an Olympics problem. I don't really notice it on other sources as much. My contrast setting is at 3 now instead of 9 like guitarman came up with. On setting 9 I think it was too high for my setup, and it's probably my screen that makes the difference (greywolf vs Carada BW). This is really a spectacular projector for $2,000 and I'm definitely in the "just sit back and enjoy" mode now that I have everything dialed in! :)

DigVid

02-20-06, 02:08 PM

For one it lists Best Buy as authorized retailer, but last time I was there they did not have any Optoma PJs

To be fair to the listing, actually they have them, just not the HT variety...

myapplebuddy

02-20-06, 02:35 PM

Thanx alot Davie for your response. Another option is I can mount it on a shelf in the back of the room. Would this be any better? Like if I mounted it say 4 ft high or so, so that it would go over heads when sitting on the couch.
The shelf option is definitely out in your setup with the HD72's offset and lack of lens shift. Just stick with considering either floor/low table or ceiling mounting.

OK 2 more things, how would mounting it on the floor help me to get a bigger screen, again I am new at this and so confused. Thanx so much for your help already!
If you mount on the ceiling, as the screen gets bigger it will have to be closer and closer to the floor. Many people don't like having the screen too close to the floor. If you mount on the floor, as the screen gets bigger it will have to be closer to the ceiling. It all depends on how low to the floor you're willing to have the screen be.

Now would the HD79 have this same problem? Or could I celing mount that and not have a problem?
Not a problem with the H79 (not HD79) because it has vertical lens shift.

angfro

02-20-06, 02:52 PM

The shelf option is definitely out in your setup with the HD72's offset and lack of lens shift. Just stick with considering either floor/low table or ceiling mounting.

If you mount on the ceiling, as the screen gets bigger it will have to be closer and closer to the floor. Many people don't like having the screen too close to the floor. If you mount on the floor, as the screen gets bigger it will have to be closer to the ceiling. It all depends on how low to the floor you're willing to have the screen be.

Not a problem with the H79 (not HD79) because it has vertical lens shift.

Thanx for your info, now as far as the H79 vs the HD72, is the 79 a better projector?
Also my screen will be recessed into the ceiling. Is this going to be a problem?

myapplebuddy

02-20-06, 03:24 PM

Thanx for your info, now as far as the H79 vs the HD72, is the 79 a better projector?
Also my screen will be recessed into the ceiling. Is this going to be a problem?
You really shouldn't be considering the H79. The H78DC3 is basically the same exact projector and that's what you can get the best deal on right now. The short answer is YES the H78DC3 is a better projector, but it's also more expensive. There's great deals going on right now because Optoma is closing it out, but even when you take into account all the rebates & free offers, it's still about $800-$900 more expensive than the HD72 with current street prices. Your best bet in comparing the 2 would be to read through more of this HD72 thread to find out more about it's strengths and weaknessess, and also read through the Happy H78DC3 Owners (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=574296&page=1&pp=30&highlight=h78dc3) thread to find out more about it's strengths and weaknesses.

fleaman

02-20-06, 04:18 PM

You really shouldn't be considering the H79. The H78DC3 is basically the same exact projector and that's what you can get the best deal on right now. The short answer is YES the H78DC3 is a better projector, but it's also more expensive. There's great deals going on right now because Optoma is closing it out, but even when you take into account all the rebates & free offers, it's still about $800-$900 more expensive than the HD72 with current street prices. Your best bet in comparing the 2 would be to read through more of this HD72 thread to find out more about it's strengths and weaknessess, and also read through the Happy H78DC3 Owners (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=574296&page=1&pp=30&highlight=h78dc3) thread to find out more about it's strengths and weaknesses.

Then read this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=641904&page=1&pp=30 about potential lamp life issues (H79/H78 are same projectors).

I was in the H78DC3 future buyers club until I read that thread. Now it's got me thinking there might be a design flaw in the H79/H78. For now I'm sitting on the fence to see how things get resolved in that thread...

Fleaman

angfro

02-20-06, 04:28 PM

You really shouldn't be considering the H79. The H78DC3 is basically the same exact projector and that's what you can get the best deal on right now. The short answer is YES the H78DC3 is a better projector, but it's also more expensive. There's great deals going on right now because Optoma is closing it out, but even when you take into account all the rebates & free offers, it's still about $800-$900 more expensive than the HD72 with current street prices. Your best bet in comparing the 2 would be to read through more of this HD72 thread to find out more about it's strengths and weaknessess, and also read through the Happy H78DC3 Owners (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=574296&page=1&pp=30&highlight=h78dc3) thread to find out more about it's strengths and weaknesses.

OK so if I stick with the HD72 will it be a problem having a screen recessed in the ceiling? When setting this up, should I set up the PJ first and then see how the screen needs to be installed?

myapplebuddy

02-20-06, 04:42 PM

OK so if I stick with the HD72 will it be a problem having a screen recessed in the ceiling? When setting this up, should I set up the PJ first and then see how the screen needs to be installed?
From experience I can tell you that it will be easier for you to set up the HD72 first and then position the screen second. Without lens shift it's tough to get the projected image perfect based on screen location.

angfro

02-20-06, 04:46 PM

From experience I can tell you that it will be easier for you to set up the HD72 first and then position the screen second. Without lens shift it's tough to get the projected image perfect based on screen location.

Is it hard to position a screen to match the image when it is going to be recessed into the ceiling. I assume a professional installer would have a problem doing this.

Also isnt it possible to tilt the projector up like this guy did in his thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6884255&&#post6884255

Now if I DONT tilt the screen like he did and I just tilt the pj will that cause any problem?

DaGamePimp

02-20-06, 07:45 PM

So where is the HD72 available from right now , or is it hard to get one since they just came out ?

Does the White Segment ruin it for HT use ?

--------- Thanks ,
---------- Jason

myapplebuddy

02-20-06, 08:06 PM

So where is the HD72 available from right now , or is it hard to get one since they just came out ?

Does the White Segment ruin it for HT use ?

To answer your first question, ProjectorPeople.com and VisualApex.com are a couple good online resellers that carry the HD72 and it looks like you can get one fairly quick right now. To answer your second question, NO.

TSO

02-20-06, 11:12 PM

It sounds like you need to do a little more reading here on the forum :)
I think maybe you are asking the wrong questions.
My suggestion would be to read until you understand the concepts of -
*Offset image
*Throw ratios
*Throw distance
*Lens shift option

I don't want to sound mean, so...if you PM me I will bring you up to speed in more detail. In a nutshell, though -

*Recessing a roll-up screen into the ceiling is a PAIN unless you know for a fact that there are no structural members anywhere above the sheetrock (or ceiling tile). Most folks just build a nice soffet for the screen out of crown molding or other and put it flush to the ceiling (in a room that low).

*I had a 133" diagonal screen in a 23x14x7'9" room, and it was great! Projector had zero offset, though, so could be mounted even with the top of the screen (read up on OFFSET!)

*Bottom line - I think the HD72 has too much offset for you. In considering the H79, you realize that the HD72 is around $2k, and the H79 is around $8K (MSRP)??? Maybe money is no object for you, but that's a pretty wide gap to be considering :)

*Also, those are some pretty expensive screens - have you shopped around? A manual pull down would be much less expensive.

Let me encourage you though - if you are a movie or HD TV fan, you are about to be in heaven!

One other note - the ceiling height would imply a basement, so maybe you have no light issues. The single most detrimental factor to a home theater is lack of light control. For true "theater" experience, really, reallt dark is best.

Blessings

eclipse98

02-20-06, 11:41 PM

I think that the "white problem" is actually more of an Olympics problem. I don't really notice it on other sources as much. My contrast setting is at 3 now instead of 9 like guitarman came up with. On setting 9 I think it was too high for my setup, and it's probably my screen that makes the difference (greywolf vs Carada BW). This is really a spectacular projector for $2,000 and I'm definitely in the "just sit back and enjoy" mode now that I have everything dialed in! :)

Glad to hear that everything worked out well for you -- we did suspect that too much snow might have been playing tricks with HD72. :D

If you have a chance can you please do a quick test for HD72 in high altitude mode ? Since I am on 6150 elevation I might need to use it in HA mode (the air is thin out here) -- I just want to know your opinion how noisy it is in this mode. My PJ will be installed 8' high and about 1-2' behind sitting position. Do you think it is going to be creating too much noise for comfortable watching.

Thanks, Davie.

myapplebuddy

02-21-06, 02:31 AM

If you have a chance can you please do a quick test for HD72 in high altitude mode ? Since I am on 6150 elevation I might need to use it in HA mode (the air is thin out here) -- I just want to know your opinion how noisy it is in this mode. My PJ will be installed 8' high and about 1-2' behind sitting position. Do you think it is going to be creating too much noise for comfortable watching.

Thanks, Davie.
Davie,
To put it simply...if I had to use high elevation mode I would not buy the HD72. Compared to low lamp mode which I'm currently using, it's ridiculously loud. The high elevation mode fan speed is what the projector uses when you power it down to cool the bulb quickly. It is definitely going to create too much noise for comfortable watching, unless you're watching action movies with the volume cranked and there's no low volume scenes whatsoever. I hate to give bad news, but I want to be up front with you. What I'm not sure about is how the HD72 compares to other projector's high elevation mode (if other projectors even have that mode). It may be that it's average compared to other projectors but I don't know because I haven't tested any others.

I wish I had a really sensitive decibel meter to give you an accurate reading. My Radio Shack meter only goes down to 50dbA. When I was only 1 ft away from from the projector I actually got a reading of 51dbA using C weighting. I don't know the formula for dbA loss so maybe someone else can post that so you could figure out how loud it would be sitting 8 ft away.

Maybe see if someone from Optoma can tell you just how necessary the high altitude mode is at 6000 ft. I'm sure "by the book" they'll tell you it's necessary, but maybe you could actually get by without it. Like I mentioned before, I have a suspicion Optoma made some modifications on their cooling system after some of the bulb issues that have been reported with the H79/H78DC3. Maybe the HD72 is actually efficient enough to 'survive' 6000 ft elevations on the regular fan speed. But please don't sue me if you get one and the bulb explodes on you! :eek:

myapplebuddy

02-21-06, 02:43 AM

Well after further internet browsing I found that the dB loss formula is called the inverse square law. That means that every time you double the distance from the sound source (your projector fan) you lose 6dB in volume. So, if you're sitting 8 ft away you have to double the distance 3 times based on my 1ft distance reading. Sooooooo, 3x6dB = 18dB loss. 51dB (my humble reading) - 18dB loss = ~ 33dB of fan noise you would be hearing in high altitude mode at your seating location. That's pretty friggin' loud for fan noise! :eek:

pinkerton

02-21-06, 02:50 AM

Could someone please measure the diameter of the lens and post results, please? Thanks :)

fleaman

02-21-06, 03:01 AM

I wish I had a really sensitive decibel meter to give you an accurate reading. My Radio Shack meter only goes down to 50dbA. When I was only 1 ft away from from the projector I actually got a reading of 51dbA using C weighting.

The noise level you measured was the projector noise + ambient room noise. No room is dead silent. Most have an ambient noise level of at least 15 to 30db, even if there are no devices on (fridges, computers, etc.). Ambient noise from outside, you just breathing inside, all adds up.

BTW, remember after 9/11, when all air traffic was grounded, how quite the sky was?? Yes, even commercial jets, hundreds of them above you, even miles away, will still contribute.

Bottom line, the only way to measure the actual noise level of the PJ is in an anechoic chamber, with test equipment of course. When you get down to the 20db something range, you need laboratory equipment to measure the results accurately.

Fleaman

myapplebuddy

02-21-06, 03:32 AM

Bottom line, the only way to measure the actual noise level of the PJ is in an anechoic chamber, with test equipment of course. When you get down to the 20db something range, you need laboratory equipment to measure the results accurately.
Thanks for the correction, fleaman. Measurements aside then, in high altitude mode the fan is way too loud!

bobweis

02-21-06, 07:12 AM

Less air at high altitude less resistance or said a different way less molecules for collisions and/or to transfer noise: Ask someone at high altitude to do your test!

nigel_ht

02-21-06, 09:47 AM

Is it hard to position a screen to match the image when it is going to be recessed into the ceiling. I assume a professional installer would have a problem doing this.

It comes under the heading of measure twice and cut once. Although in my case it was measure 4 times and cut twice. :)

Once a recessed screen is placed any subsequent projector installs will be based on its position. I centered my screen with a joist and also (since the ceiling was open) added some 2x4s in the area where I expected future installs to be.

A laser level/guide is likely a good investment...a wife and tape measure is not quite the same substitute.

Also isnt it possible to tilt the projector up like this guy did in his thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6884255&&#post6884255

Now if I DONT tilt the screen like he did and I just tilt the pj will that cause any problem?

Yes it is possible. It may be easier with a pull down given you simply add two tethers to the back wall to get the necessary angle. It is an additional (manual) step though.

WRT to the H78DC3 it seems to be a good buy and likely much better for your install than a HD72. There are some potential issues with bulb life. As I said earlier you may wish to consider the IN76 and AN110 instead.

Nigel

eclipse98

02-21-06, 01:07 PM

To be fair to the listing, actually they have them, just not the HT variety...

Bestbuy.com does have some of the Optoma line, but B&M stores do not carry any of their products (at least this is the case with 2 Denver stores I checked).

The question was where can one see the demo of HD72 PJ and one can't do it in B&M Best Buy. They have a demo room (Magnolia) with Infocus PJs (7210) only.

So my advice stands -- better go to proven online vendor with good return policy and get it there instead of paying more at BB (if they did sell it) plus most likely sales tax. I would wish that BB were selling HD72 though - I really like their 30 day return policy on PJs. :)

Thanks, Davie.

eclipse98

02-21-06, 01:29 PM

Less air at high altitude less resistance or said a different way less molecules for collisions and/or to transfer noise: Ask someone at high altitude to do your test!

Bobweis, very good point -- I guess you can't compare noise level for HA when it is run in low altitude elevation. The air density in Denver is about 18% less than at sea level. The question though is what causing the noise -- is it really molecules collisions of fan itself running at high speed.

If somebody is using HA mode on high elevation can you please let me know how loud is it ? :)

Myapplebuddy, thanks so much for testing it and even finding explanation for dB loss formula -- highly appreciated !!!

While this is definitely a bummer, there might be a way out of using HA mode. My HT is in the basement where temperature never goes above 70 degrees even is summer. Guitarman suggested that this is "nice and cool" and probably going to be good enough to run PJ in non-HA mode. My concern however is when you have too many bodies in your HT the temperature will go up for sure -- I've read on AVS that people up north have to use AC in their basement HT during winter time. :rolleyes:

Does anybody have any experience using any PJ (not necessarily HD72) on elevation in non-HA mode. Will it work ?

Thanks, Davie.

fleaman

02-21-06, 01:57 PM

While this is definitely a bummer, there might be a way out of using HA mode. My HT is in the basement where temperature never goes above 70 degrees even is summer. Guitarman suggested that this is "nice and cool" and probably going to be good enough to run PJ in non-HA mode. My concern however is when you have too many bodies in your HT the temperature will go up for sure -- I've read on AVS that people up north have to use AC in their basement HT during winter time. :rolleyes:
.

Don't forget that the temperature at the ceiling (where your PJ will be mounted) will be 10-20 degrees hotter than at the floor.

Fleaman

eclipse98

02-21-06, 02:31 PM

Don't forget that the temperature at the ceiling (where your PJ will be mounted) will be 10-20 degrees hotter than at the floor.

Fleaman

Another excellent point !!!

What's interesting though is that Mits HC3000 does not have any High Altitude mode, meaning it's either running in same mode no matter what elevation or has some logic built in to run fan faster when lamp is getting hot. How is it possible that some PJs do require it (HD72) and others don't. Can the brightness of HD72 be the reason it's lamp is running hotter therefore requiring more cooling ? :confused:

Thanks, Davie.

Uatatoka

02-21-06, 03:04 PM

Another excellent point !!!

What's interesting though is that Mits HC3000 does not have any High Altitude mode, meaning it's either running in same mode no matter what elevation or has some logic built in to run fan faster when lamp is getting hot. How is it possible that some PJs do require it (HD72) and others don't. Can the brightness of HD72 be the reason it's lamp is running hotter therefore requiring more cooling ? :confused:

Thanks, Davie.

Hi Davie,

Unfortunately any front projector will have difficulty cooling at high altitude. It's hard to determine the cooling effectiveness from it's lumen output alone though. For example, the H78/79 is listed as having a 250W bulb with less lumen output than the HD72 and its 220W bulb. The H79 runs silent, and is having short bulb life issues for many forum users. The Mits HC3000 has a 200W bulb.

From this standpoint I would think the HD72 and Mits projectors bode well as they run the fan a little louder and have lower wattage bulbs. This is conjectured from datasheets though. We won't know for sure until some proven track records can be established. So is the life of the early adopter!

I would also think a high altitude mode is a good feature to have to ensure a longer life on the bulb by running it cooler. If you end up needing it you could build a hush box if the noise bothers you.

The brightness, picture quality, and value is worth it - I've decided to keep mine. Luckily I live at sea level where the air is soup compared to 5000+ ft altitudes ;)

eclipse98

02-21-06, 03:30 PM

I would also think a high altitude mode is a good feature to have to ensure a longer life on the bulb by running it cooler. If you end up needing it you could build a hush box if the noise bothers you.

The brightness, picture quality, and value is worth it - I've decided to keep mine. Luckily I live at sea level where the air is soup compared to 5000+ ft altitudes ;)

Thanks Uatatoka,

I was thinking about building a box for PJ to reduce the noise -- there are some really nice sound absorbtion materials available out there that I am going to use for HT sound treatment. My concern with this approach however is that by enclosing PJ in the box I might make cooling problem even worse by not allowing hot air escape outside of the box. I am not sure how practical this solution is -- if anybody knows if those boxes are practical to reduce the noise please let me know -- I'll try to search AVS for solution but it might take forever. :(

Davie.

myapplebuddy

02-21-06, 04:01 PM

Davie,
Do a Yahoo or Google search for "hush box" and you should find a number of sites with information about how to build one. I don't know much about it but a number of results came up when I tried that search. Best of luck!

Uatatoka

02-21-06, 04:22 PM

My concern with this approach however is that by enclosing PJ in the box I might make cooling problem even worse by not allowing hot air escape outside of the box. I am not sure how practical this solution is -- if anybody knows if those boxes are practical to reduce the noise please let me know -- I'll try to search AVS for solution but it might take forever. :(

Davie.

You definitely don't want an airtight hush box. That only compounds your problem as you surmised. I only did a little research in this area, but I believe the idea is to force hot air out with a slow RPM large fan into another area (say into your attic or floor joist space above the ceiling), while drawing in cool air at the same time.

The goal is to get good airflow to your projector while noise isolating the smaller and noisy high rpm fan in the projector itself. Good luck with the forum research - its easy to get lost in all the info!

gimmin74

02-21-06, 07:11 PM

The HD72 review is up!!!!!! Projectorreviews.com

myapplebuddy

02-21-06, 07:19 PM

Thanks for letting us know! I'm off to read it...

myapplebuddy

02-21-06, 07:40 PM

Just read the review - fantastic stuff as usual from Art. I've definitely made up my mind now that the HD72 is the one for me! :D

eclipse98

02-21-06, 07:45 PM

Just read the review - fantastic stuff as usual from Art. I've definitely made up my mind now that the HD72 is the one for me! :D

Agree, this is one great top of the line review, not this flimsy stuff from PC. Great job Art !!!

Can't wait for 'General Performance' section to be posted, that's where you get side by side shots !!!

presenter

02-22-06, 01:16 AM

Agree, this is one great top of the line review, not this flimsy stuff from PC. Great job Art !!!

Can't wait for 'General Performance' section to be posted, that's where you get side by side shots !!!

Greetings,

General performance is up. That's where the "dirt" is - lens offset, 4x color wheel speed, a remote with limited range.

But, damn, this projector puts out a kick ass image. I'm not trading in my BenQ 8720, but if none of these ergonomic issues are stoppers, it's probably the sweetest around.

BTW I will be adding more images during the week. While I have watched lots of HD on the projector 16 hours total viewing so far between DVD, and HD, I haven't shot HD from by D-VHS yet. I'll also post a few side by sides, but they are a mess. The Optoma is significantly brighter than even the PE7700, you should see what it does to the Sony HS51. You'd need sunglasses to watch the Optoma if the sony was just bright enough.

But seriously, this projector may be too bright for smaller screens, with a 92" inch, for example I would definitely go gray!

eclipse98

02-22-06, 01:36 AM

Greetings,

General performance is up. That's where the "dirt" is - lens offset, 4x color wheel speed, a remote with limited range.

But, damn, this projector puts out a kick ass image. I'm not trading in my BenQ 8720, but if none of these ergonomic issues are stoppers, it's probably the sweetest around.

BTW I will be adding more images during the week. While I have watched lots of HD on the projector 16 hours total viewing so far between DVD, and HD, I haven't shot HD from by D-VHS yet. I'll also post a few side by sides, but they are a mess. The Optoma is significantly brighter than even the PE7700, you should see what it does to the Sony HS51. You'd need sunglasses to watch the Optoma if the sony was just bright enough.

But seriously, this projector may be too bright for smaller screens, with a 92" inch, for example I would definitely go gray!

Thanks for the great review Art !!!

I am a little confused about offset numbers you posted in your review. You say your offset was 19.5" for 100" diagonal (49" height) screen. That makes it a whopping 40% offset. At 1.0 zoom that you used it should be more within 32% range as reported my most owners on this thread. Any numbers mix-up there ? :confused:

Nice to know that you're coming with the same gray screen recommendations as we guessed here will be a good match for such a bright projector (unless you go to really big screen). :)

Looking forward to side-by-side shots, Davie.

presenter

02-22-06, 01:51 AM

Thanks for the great review Art !!!

I am a little confused about offset numbers you posted in your review. You say your offset was 19.5" for 100" diagonal (49" height) screen. That makes it a whopping 40% offset. At 1.0 zoom that you used it should be more within 32% range as reported my most owners on this thread. Any numbers mix-up there ? :confused:

Nice to know that you're coming with the same gray screen recommendations as we guessed here will be a good match for such a bright projector (unless you go to really big screen). :)

Looking forward to side-by-side shots, Davie.

It's possible that I screwed up. I wasn't working with a 100" screen, I interpolated the numbers and may have made an error. I'll measure again tomorrow night and update if needed. Also though, (although it wouldn't explain that much difference. As i said, I was figuring to the bottom of the 720, not 768 vertical, which should have some minor impact (about 1.6 inch difference which should only be a about 3%.

Probably an error on my part. At least I didn't lose a $100M space probe, over a math error, like NASA. See, there's a bright side to everything. -a

Uatatoka

02-22-06, 01:56 AM

1. First, set all enhancement to zero (Brilliant Color, True Vivid, Contrast, Brightness), Choose the PC degamma (2.2).
2. Was it from a PC connection? (I think so, judging from the 1280x768 full pixels), was it DVI? if yes, do you have DMW (Display Mate for Window, www.displaymate.com) software? or use AVIA DVD via any software DVD player. Try to tune the "Contrast" so that you can see the difference between 100 IRE and 99 IRE. Or simply use the surf photo, decrease contrast until you can see all the white details.
3. Set the black level, again DMW or AVIA, tune the "Brightness" till you can see 0 IRE and 1 IRE.
4. you may need to go back and forth between step 2 and 3 until both are satisfied.
5. Then, please look at the surf photo again to see if the white crush is there.
6. Since we are speaking of PC, please also check the overlay of the graphic card so that it is in normal positions.
7. If you can see the various levels in DMW, but not in the photos, then some setting of the PC or the photo tool may need to be checked.
8. Once you can see all levels, then you can gradually add enhancement (different degamma, Brilliant Color, True Vivid, saturation, ...) and check the level again, modify contrast/brightness to maintain all levels seen, back and forth until you find a good setting where you have the enhancement you like and the projector can reveal all levels.

Please try it and see if you can get rid of the white clipping issue, let me know! :)

BTW, if you feel it's too bright for your taste, maybe try ND filter to get the brightness down and better saturations? I havn't tried any ND filter yet, so I can't help you out here.

Thanks for the great tips TzungILin. I spent some more time tweaking each source with my Avia disk tonight and it eliminated the white clipping I was seeing. The HD72 is near perfect now!!

The only thing I may need to do now is run my PC and DVD digital connections seperately to the DVI and HDMI inputs (instead of my thru my gefen switch) as they require unique calibration settings.

I don't see the need for an ND filter either anymore - once I tuned out the white clipping and the green push in pure black space scenes everything looked natural and smooth. Thankfully it was only a calibration issue.

Now I can get back to just enjoying my home theater and be done with all this projector research.... In my humble opinion this is hands down the best front projector available right now in the $2k range. Work with the fixed offset - it's worth it.

myapplebuddy

02-22-06, 02:17 AM

But seriously, this projector may be too bright for smaller screens, with a 92" inch, for example I would definitely go gray!
I actually have a 96" 1.4 gain white screen and I'm LOVING IT with the HD72! I actually prefer the extra brightness - I'm not exaggerating when I say that when watching certain HD shows it looks like a GIANT PLASMA on my wall! Now that I have all the settings dialed in nicely I absolutely love this thing!

Uatatoka

02-22-06, 02:23 AM

Greetings,

General performance is up. That's where the "dirt" is - lens offset, 4x color wheel speed, a remote with limited range.

But, damn, this projector puts out a kick ass image. I'm not trading in my BenQ 8720, but if none of these ergonomic issues are stoppers, it's probably the sweetest around.

BTW I will be adding more images during the week. While I have watched lots of HD on the projector 16 hours total viewing so far between DVD, and HD, I haven't shot HD from by D-VHS yet. I'll also post a few side by sides, but they are a mess. The Optoma is significantly brighter than even the PE7700, you should see what it does to the Sony HS51. You'd need sunglasses to watch the Optoma if the sony was just bright enough.

But seriously, this projector may be too bright for smaller screens, with a 92" inch, for example I would definitely go gray!

Hi Art (presenter),

Just finished reading the rest of your review - excellent work. You really covered all the bases and I couldn't agree with you more on the kick ass image!

Looking forward to the comparisons.

Mike

presenter

02-22-06, 02:44 AM

Thanks for the great review Art !!!

I am a little confused about offset numbers you posted in your review. You say your offset was 19.5" for 100" diagonal (49" height) screen. That makes it a whopping 40% offset. At 1.0 zoom that you used it should be more within 32% range as reported my most owners on this thread. Any numbers mix-up there ? :confused:

Nice to know that you're coming with the same gray screen recommendations as we guessed here will be a good match for such a bright projector (unless you go to really big screen). :)

Looking forward to side-by-side shots, Davie.

OK, I checked my numbers (did not remeasure) Sloppy math, my actual screen width was about over 110" and I forgot to adjust that spec down down to 100" diagonal (87" wide).

So my offset now is 16.9" to the bottom of the 720 line (16:9 screen). That works out to something around a 34 % offset, more in line with other people's measurements. Again, mine was a very quick measurement. You know working a 10 foot tape measure, for a 13.8 foot measurement.... PLEASE - Do not use for precision mounting, I could still be off by about an inch or so.

TzungILin

02-22-06, 05:25 AM

Thanks for the great tips TzungILin. I spent some more time tweaking each source with my Avia disk tonight and it eliminated the white clipping I was seeing. The HD72 is near perfect now!!

The only thing I may need to do now is run my PC and DVD digital connections seperately to the DVI and HDMI inputs (instead of my thru my gefen switch) as they require unique calibration settings.

I don't see the need for an ND filter either anymore - once I tuned out the white clipping and the green push in pure black space scenes everything looked natural and smooth. Thankfully it was only a calibration issue.

Now I can get back to just enjoying my home theater and be done with all this projector research.... In my humble opinion this is hands down the best front projector available right now in the $2k range. Work with the fixed offset - it's worth it.

Dear Uatatoka,

You are welcome! I'm glad that you found out the HD72 does not have white crush issue. Like I said, one person's best setting may not work well in other's setup. Since now you've corrected the white issue and color is more correct, can you post again your photos? I want to see the leopard in better color.

If you think it's too bright, make sure that HD72's Bright mode is off. If still too bright, I would suggest a grey screen, first to bring down the brightness, secondly, the black and perceived contrast will be better.

If you set up HDMI and DVI/HDCP inputs accordingly to the different digital sources, once you calibrate each, HD72 will remember it, so every time you switch between sources, the best image will be shown. I suggest you use sRGB mode for PC connection, if you watch alot of photos on PC. Do remember to select your desired Brilliant Color setting (select sRGB, then change the BC to your liking, HD72 will remember it under sRGB mode) If you watch DVD from PC, you can also select Cinema mode and make some adjustment, then you can select different modes when you watch photos/PC/game or watch DVD movies.

Art (presenter) had a nice shot of the Fifth Element Lilu's face on his Projector Review websit. Although a small picture, that shot looks very nice, if you have the DVD, maybe you want to compare to see how is your calibartion look. :)

mooney

02-22-06, 09:31 AM

Re High Altitude

I am at 7500' elevation with my Mits HC3000 and have about 100 hrs.
Run in low fan and no problems to date. Just for your info. Not here to argue.
Much quieter than my 4805.

Jim Story

02-22-06, 09:44 AM

Art,
Could you please say more about how the 72 compares to the 8720, especially wrt black level, contrast and bright vibrant colors?
Thank you.

myapplebuddy

02-22-06, 10:58 AM

Re High Altitude

I am at 7500' elevation with my Mits HC3000 and have about 100 hrs.
Run in low fan and no problems to date. Just for your info. Not here to argue.
Much quieter than my 4805.
Who would argue with you? In fact, I bet eclipse wants to hug you after that post!

myapplebuddy

02-22-06, 11:40 AM

I think I may have something wrong with my HD72. Twice now it has done a full reset by itself. Both times I powered it down when it was working perfectly fine, and then when I turned it on again the next day all the settings were reset back to default. I thought that maybe it was because of a temporary power outage so I tried unplugging the power to the HD72 (when the bulb was cool of course) and when I powered it back up all the settings were still fine. So, I've confirmed that it's not because of a temporary power loss. Any other ideas or should I call Optoma? Their tech support is not great so I figured I may get more help from you guys. It's not the end of the world, but it's annoying to have to re-enter all my settings, and the lamp hours indicator gets reset too so I don't know how many hours are on the bulb now, other than estimating based on the last time I checked.

braindew

02-22-06, 12:03 PM

braindew

02-22-06, 02:12 PM

Can any of you more experienced tweak-a-philes help me with false contouring and this projector. I am fairly certain that is what I am seeing now after extensive research through the forums. I am seeing it mainly with DVD bright movies (Disney movies like It's a Bugs Life and Lion King in the skies for instance). Even my wife noticed it, but she wanted to call it "crushing whites" even though that is not what is going on (but at least she is getting used to the lingo). It is occuring with gradual transitions of color. I was hoping that my Pioneer Elite 79avi would help limit this with 10-bit processing over HDMI, but I get the same amount over 480i component with my Sony megachanger (I tried 480i to see how well the de-interlacer in the HD72 would fare).

Seems that many high end RPTVs and FP suffer from this to an extent. Is tweaking my image with my DVD player a total waste of time...or can this be overcome. It has started to really bug us.

myapplebuddy

02-22-06, 02:48 PM

Art et. al.,

I want to bring up the fact that each preset is saved for each input seperately. That is why Art did not have saved settings going from Oppo over HDMI versus Oppo over DVI. This can be a blessing in disguise because I was able to adjust the RGB settings for component input seperate from HDMI (I use HD over component and DVD over HDMI). What you will find out is that Advanced settings like RGB control are not saved for each user preset...they are saved for each input. Therefore, if one was wanting to use the HDMI input with a switcher (which I had planned to do), you wouldn't be able to seperate HD color settings from SD color settings. Kind of a bummer...TzungILin do you have a workaround or can we start the list of desired updates.
Another thing to add is that each resolution has its own settings on the same input. If that doesn't make sense, let me explain...I switch my Moto HD-DVR & DVD player through a Denon receiver with component video switching. The HD-DVR output is set to 720P. The DVD player output is set to 480i because I don't have an upscaling player. Even though both go into the HD72's component video input, I can have 2 separate settings for the 2 sources and the HD72 will switch between them automatically, depending on whether the 720P source or the 480i source is present. On a side note, the HD72 does a great job deinterlacing 480i in my opinion. I don't have an upscaling DVD player to compare it to unfortunately, but DVD material looks outstanding as it is. I wonder what the quality of the HD72's deinterlacing is compared to an upscaling DVD player that only has component video outputs. I was going to get the Oppo, but I love the quality of DVD's so much that I think I'm gonna wait and put the money towards an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player.

gkanders

02-22-06, 03:55 PM

Art,
Could you please say more about how the 72 compares to the 8720, especially wrt black level, contrast and bright vibrant colors?
Thank you.

And the new 7700?

TzungILin

02-22-06, 09:52 PM

Another thing to add is that each resolution has its own settings on the same input. If that doesn't make sense, let me explain...I switch my Moto HD-DVR & DVD player through a Denon receiver with component video switching. The HD-DVR output is set to 720P. The DVD player output is set to 480i because I don't have an upscaling player. Even though both go into the HD72's component video input, I can have 2 separate settings for the 2 sources and the HD72 will switch between them automatically, depending on whether the 720P source or the 480i source is present. On a side note, the HD72 does a great job deinterlacing 480i in my opinion. I don't have an upscaling DVD player to compare it to unfortunately, but DVD material looks outstanding as it is. I wonder what the quality of the HD72's deinterlacing is compared to an upscaling DVD player that only has component video outputs. I was going to get the Oppo, but I love the quality of DVD's so much that I think I'm gonna wait and put the money towards an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player.

myapplebuddy,

It is correct that per each input terminal AND per each signal type (within the same input terminal) will have its own memory of picture adjustment, this is convenient for you guys who uses one input (i.e. component from an AV receiver or switcher box) to HD72 but with different signals coming into the AV receiver.

braindew,

since there are too many memory to remember, so unfortunately we only have one RGB gain/bias per input terminal. So, I would encourage you to fine tune the RGB gain/bias according to the one source (for that input) that you use most.

Regarding the "contour" or the smoothness of the color gradations, there could be two causes, one maybe embedded in the digital content, and one that is caused by display (DLP, PDP). HD72 is using DDP3020, and to my own observation, it is already the best performing DDP chip from TI that greatly improves the contour issue of DLP, however, it is still present, just become less noticeable. THis is a good strength (reducing contour effect) for DLP machine using DDP3020 over the previous DDP1010/DDP1000 models. I have seen some trailers downloaded from internet that has the contour even in a CRT monitor.

I believe most makers already tried their best to minimize it before entering the market. Sorry if this presents a problem for you.

pinkerton

02-23-06, 12:08 AM

Could someone please measure the diameter of the lens and post results, please? Thanks :)

Sorry about being a squeaky wheel. :)

HiHoStevo

02-23-06, 01:38 AM

TzungILin...

At CES I was told that you are going to have larger versions of the GreyWolf available.

Do you know what sizes and how soon?

eclipse98

02-23-06, 02:03 AM

Who would argue with you? In fact, I bet eclipse wants to hug you after that post!

Yep, big thanks to Mooney for the info !!!

I bet he came across a couple of PIA holes on AVS forums -- Thankfully HD72 crowd is one of the best :) , so no arguing here, just a big thank you for the info :D.

It makes me wonder if I really need to run HD72 in HA mode -- HC3000 seems to get by just fine and Mooney is on 7500 elevation.

BTW, Sorry to bug everybody with my "elevation problem", we did exchange some info with Mooney via PM, but I thought it would be nice to have this type of info on this thread in case somebody else will be looking for it :).

Davie.

myapplebuddy

02-23-06, 03:25 AM

Sorry about being a squeaky wheel. :)
Sorry - I meant to measure it when you originally posted but I blanked. The diameter of the outer lens "housing", which is also the focus ring, is 3 1/8" in diameter. The lens itself is about 1 5/16" in diameter, although it's harder to measure since it's recessed into the projector a bit. Is that what you needed?

Lefty4

02-23-06, 09:55 AM

Sorry for posting this question a second time but I know there are many people with HD72's that also have the Oppo 971.

I believe the HD72 has a DVI-I port and so does the Oppo 971. Does this mean the only cable I can use between the two is a Single Link DVI-I cable? Are Dual Link DVI-D cables not possible? I can't use a DVI-I to HDMI cable since I will have the cable box hooked up to the HDMI port.

braindew

02-23-06, 10:06 AM

myapplebuddy,

braindew,

since there are too many memory to remember, so unfortunately we only have one RGB gain/bias per input terminal. So, I would encourage you to fine tune the RGB gain/bias according to the one source (for that input) that you use most.

Regarding the "contour" or the smoothness of the color gradations, there could be two causes, one maybe embedded in the digital content, and one that is caused by display (DLP, PDP). HD72 is using DDP3020, and to my own observation, it is already the best performing DDP chip from TI that greatly improves the contour issue of DLP, however, it is still present, just become less noticeable. THis is a good strength (reducing contour effect) for DLP machine using DDP3020 over the previous DDP1010/DDP1000 models. I have seen some trailers downloaded from internet that has the contour even in a CRT monitor.

I believe most makers already tried their best to minimize it before entering the market. Sorry if this presents a problem for you.

Thanks for the reply TzungILin,

After doing some research, I have found that posterization is a problem all the way up to expensive 1080p products (with SD sources especially). Here is a post that makes me feel better about posterization and the HD72. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=612774&highlight=posterization+RBE) The engineers may have found the sweet spot for posterization and RBE with this TI chip and 4x color wheel (10 bit helps). Since I love this projector's image too much and I have over 500 DVDs in my library, can anyone spell out some tricks to minimize the posterization (aka false contouring or solarization). I have read that boosting the contrast can help (and I proved it last night), but the image suffers too much (might as well have an LCD). By the way, BC makes it slightly worse...but I like the image too much to leave BC off.

jimsfield

02-23-06, 01:11 PM

Can someone tell me what the throw distance is for a screen that is 96” X 54” if I want the picture to fill the width of the screen and allow for a small overlap in 16:10 mode? I calculated it to be 151.6” to 182.3”.

mbonikow

02-23-06, 01:48 PM

Hi Art!

Great job on the review! The only site worth reading for me at this point. I send you a question regarding H57 and hd72 but you probably do not check your messages.

I think you are the only one who had a chance to review both in depth. I can get h57 for around 1300 while hd72 goes for about 1700 on line. How would you compare the two image wise? I remember that you were very impressed with H57 at the time. Is the difference incremental or is it a larger gap as per image quality for DVD watching, other stuff is not important to me. How would you rank H27 to H57 to Hd72 now that you had a chance to see them in action. Thanks a lot for your help!

Mike

myapplebuddy

02-23-06, 02:58 PM

My dad has an H57 and I have an HD72. I don't have time right now to write a long comparison, but the HD72 is better in all of the significant catagories (brightness, CR, colors, resolution, etc.) My dad has a small 5 ft wide screen since that's all he has space for. I use a 7 ft wide screen so it's not an apples to apples comparison. From the time I've spent watching DVD & HD material over at my parents house I was very impressed with the H57. To put it simply, however, the image the HD72 is putting out on my 7 ft wide screen is better than the image his H57 is putting out on his 5 ft wide screen. That's saying a lot because that's a lot more screen that you're spreading brightness, resolution, etc. over. The difference is especially apparent on HD material. If you can actually find the HD72 for $1,700 :eek: (where I have no idea) then get it! The cheapest I've seen it ANYWHERE is $2K. If it's $2,000 vs $1,300 then I think the difference is still worth it to get the HD72, but a big factor is how big of a screen you want to use.

myapplebuddy

02-23-06, 03:01 PM

Oh yeah I forgot to mention that I calibrated both projectors and we use exactly the same screen (Carada Brilliant White).

Vince Anzalone

02-23-06, 03:56 PM

kktx

02-23-06, 05:49 PM

My dad has a small 5 ft wide screen since that's all he has space for. I use a 7 ft wide screen so it's not an apples to apples comparison...To put it simply, however, the image the HD72 is putting out on my 7 ft wide screen is better than the image his H57 is putting out on his 5 ft wide screen.

By "wide" are you referring to actual width, or screen diagonal dimension? I'm not trying to nitpick, but want to compare your setup to the one I'm currently envisioning (54h x 96h, or 110" diagonal).

Also, is your dad's setup light controlled (more than yours, which I gather has some ambient light during daylight hours)? If not, could you elaborate on why he went with the Carada BW (as opposed to the classic white or gray)?

KK

lakingsx213

02-23-06, 08:55 PM

Did I say I really like this PJ already?

Here is the first decent screenshot I have and it still didn't come out half as good as it really looks in person.

It's much cleaner, colors are brighter and the white light on the bottom right hand side of the pic are smoother and clearer than this picture shows.

This is without BC turned on of course and on a 133" screen.

but...

Everyone loves to look at pics, so here you go... Enjoy! (I think)

Click Me 4 Picture... (http://www.xboxbum.com/files/HD72001.jpg)

This was shot with an old Canon A40 2.1MP camera so I just can't get a great image with that sorry :D ....

stef2

02-23-06, 10:24 PM

eclipse98

02-23-06, 11:52 PM

chad4bama

02-24-06, 01:13 AM

ender21

02-24-06, 01:22 AM

(First post - please be gentle)

I have been following this forum for a while. I've been trying to see the difference between the InFocus IN76 and Optoma HD72.

After researching and learning more about DLP PJs, it seems that all have to scale and/or de-interlace as a natural process to their native format (in this case 720p for both).

The HD72 previous stated that it would use DCDi as it method, then "dropped" this claim in later specs. The IN76 uses DNX from pixelworks (sp?) which seems to be a competitor to the popular DCDi.

I assume that the HD72 has to do something to scale and/or de-interlace to 720p.

Does anyone know what kind of process it uses to do this?
Is it all proprietary?

Thanks for all the great info! :)

Hi Vince, welcome to the forum!

I've contacted Optoma twice now about their deinterlacing solution and have still not received a response from them. I did, however, get info from Pixelworks & InFocus within 24-hours of my call in to them both. The Pixelworks solution in the IN76 will do true motion adaptive deinterlacing of 1080i material to 1080p, then scale it to 720p.

Hopefully TzungILin can shed some light on this since those I've contacted at Optoma haven't responded to me yet.

Rick

eclipse98

02-24-06, 01:31 AM

I wonder if when the Infocus IN76s start shipping that the HD72 might drop a little in price or, more likely, offer some sort of rebate offer. Right now I think I want the 72 for the brighter picture, but I'm not sure the improvement over a H31 or H27 can justify the $1,000 price difference.

Highly unlikely IMO, IN76 will street at significantly higher price compared to HD72 and once you upgrade to 2 year warranty for extra $149 (to match 2 year warranty offered for HD72 and HC3000) it will be the most expensive of the 3 PJs with DC2.5 chip. I really don't see how IN76 can possibly apply any price pressure for HD72, I do however think you will see some rebates/offers for IN76 some time after launch to be able to compete with 2 cheaper models.

ender21

02-24-06, 01:35 AM

Highly unlikely IMO, IN76 will street at significantly higher price compared to HD72 and once you upgrade to 2 year warranty for extra $149 (to match 2 year warranty offered for HD72 and HC3000) it will be the most expensive of the 3 PJs with DC2.5 chip. I really don't see how IN76 can possibly apply any price pressure for HD72, I do however think you will see some rebates/offers for IN76 some time after launch to be able to compete with 2 cheaper models.

Already received a 10% off coupon for the InFocus store back in late January. Others may have them too in their inbox. I already confirmed that it's valid and can be used for the IN76 or anything else I was interested in purchasing from the IF store.

Rick

shatten22

02-24-06, 01:43 AM

wow, Rick, where can I get a coupon?

ender21

02-24-06, 01:51 AM

I don't know, actually. I assume they sent it to me because I purchased a M1-DVI cable from them about a year ago.

But as this thread is about the Optoma HD72, the point was that IF, in one way or another, may already be narrowing the gap between IN76 MSRP and HD72's available street price. It's still a $600 savings to purchase the HD72, of course, but it might be the difference for some.

Rick

eclipse98

02-24-06, 02:23 AM

wow, Rick, where can I get a coupon?

Go to Infocus website, put THANKS in 'Add Coupon Code' field when checking out, get your 10% off. This, however, applies to MSRP -- it's still cheaper to buy from local dealer without any coupon. ;)

HiHoStevo

02-24-06, 02:38 AM

The Optoma H72 seems impressive, but one point remains unclear to me so far. How do its absolute black level and shadow details compare to the HD2+ projectors like the PE7700? and the InFocus 4805? Black levels is clearly not on par with DC3 chips, but clearly better than the recent LCD projectors...

Art, since you recently reviewed some of those PJ's, and also the Sony HS 60, could you please give me your detailed opinion about this?

Thanks!

Stef

check out Art's review of the HD72 on www.projectorreviews.com he has comparisons to both the BenQ 7700 and the HS-51a (not the 60 though... I do not think the 60 was ever brought to the US... at least not officially).

myapplebuddy

02-24-06, 02:58 AM

By "wide" are you referring to actual width, or screen diagonal dimension? I'm not trying to nitpick, but want to compare your setup to the one I'm currently envisioning (54h x 96h, or 110" diagonal).

Also, is your dad's setup light controlled (more than yours, which I gather has some ambient light during daylight hours)? If not, could you elaborate on why he went with the Carada BW (as opposed to the classic white or gray)?

KK
By "wide" I meant "width", as in how wide the screen is (note obvious sarcasm) :rolleyes: My 7' wide screen has a diagonal measurement of 96". My dad's 5' wide screen has a diagonal measurement of 69". When my dad originally bought his screen he had a completely light controlled room. Recently my parents moved and the room is not completely light controlled but it's pretty close. I think Carada actually recommended the BW to him and I'm glad they did because it's a fantastic screen. He and I both like very bright images so that's why we leaned toward the 1.4 gain BW, as opposed to the 1.0 gain CCW, or the .8 gain gray screen.

pinkerton

02-24-06, 05:04 AM

Sorry - I meant to measure it when you originally posted but I blanked. The diameter of the outer lens "housing", which is also the focus ring, is 3 1/8" in diameter. The lens itself is about 1 5/16" in diameter, although it's harder to measure since it's recessed into the projector a bit. Is that what you needed?

Perfect, thank you so much. You are a stout and robust young man!

foghorn17

02-24-06, 08:01 AM

Stef

check out Art's review of the HD72 on projectorreviews he has comparisons to both the BenQ 7700 and the HS-51a (not the 60 though... I do not think the 60 was ever brought to the US... at least not officially).
The HS60 is the same as the HS51. For some unknown reason sony decided to call it the HS51 in the US and HS60 everywhere else.

CTR

02-24-06, 11:35 AM

Uatatoka

02-24-06, 12:59 PM

Art,

Thanks for the detailed review. I'm considering the HD72 and I need a few opinions from you or anyone who currently owns this projector.

If I were to throw a 76" image from 10', would the projector be too bright for this situation? I'm still debating whether to go for 76 or 84" at a distance of 10'. The main seating area is 10' but there's also 8' to accomodate more people. Regarding the ND filter, would it help to reduce the brightness while retaining contast? What size of filter should I buy?

Thanks

Hi CTR,

The brightness is a GOOD thing. I think you'll find, as I did, once you start really tweaking with the calibration of the unit you can bring the brightness under control for your taste w/o a ND filter or gray screen. Give yourself a week to adjust to it as well. I think my initial reaction was skewed in that I was adjusted to a dim projector for 2 years. Be forewarned, once you try it you won't go back!

If it is still too bright then look at getting a ND filter or gray screen.

Regards,
Mike

HiHoStevo

02-24-06, 01:27 PM

The HS60 is the same as the HS51. For some unknown reason sony decided to call it the HS51 in the US and HS60 everywhere else.

Oh........

I thought the HS-51 was the US version of the HS-50 and that the HS-60 was a newer model that for some reason never made it to the US......

Isn't there an HS-51A also.......

kktx

02-24-06, 03:08 PM

By "wide" I meant "width", as in how wide the screen is (note obvious sarcasm) :rolleyes: I think Carada actually recommended the BW to him and I'm glad they did because it's a fantastic screen. He and I both like very bright images so that's why we leaned toward the 1.4 gain BW, as opposed to the 1.0 gain CCW, or the .8 gain gray screen.

Given the attention to detail in your prior posts, I expected no less. :D Perhaps I should talk to the Carada folks to see what they think about a match with the HD72 now. I also like bright images, but still wonder about the compromise between brightness and inky blacks. Anyone else paired a different Carada screen with this PJ?

myapplebuddy

02-24-06, 04:29 PM

Given the attention to detail in your prior posts, I expected no less. :D Perhaps I should talk to the Carada folks to see what they think about a match with the HD72 now. I also like bright images, but still wonder about the compromise between brightness and inky blacks. Anyone else paired a different Carada screen with this PJ?
Although the "inky blacks" I'm seeing would be somewhat improved with a gray screen, I don't feel I'm missing anything at all. The black levels are really outstanding even with a white screen, so I wouldn't call it a "compromise between brightness and inky blacks" as you put it, because that makes it sound like the HD72's black levels are somewhat lacking. Also, with the .8 gain gray screen Carada offers, you'll lose some of the punch that makes the HD72 so wonderful. It depends a lot on your room and viewing habits. I personally don't like watching TV in complete darkness and my projector/screen combo makes it possible to have a fair amount of ambient light present in the room without feeling like the image is suffering very much. Obviously the image isn't as great with ambient light present as it is when the room is completely dark, but that's true for all front projector setups.