Shelly, this is a common confusion.

First do not adjust blue to get rid of yellow push, the RGB settings are there to tune the colour mix of white. White that hopefully is defined at D65 ( a type of white used in the transfer process) - by mixing the RGB, offsets, Gains etc.

The Yellow Push or for that matter Red Push is a product of the saturation being all messed up in the LIVING settings, this must be adjusted with the colour management feature.

Reset the RGB settings to my initial numbers.

Then load up colour management and follow the instructions in my tweaks DOC published a few posts earlier.

ROne.

Shelly, this is a common confusion.

First do not adjust blue to get rid of yellow push, the RGB settings are there to tune the colour mix of white. White that hopefully is defined at D65 ( a type of white used in the transfer process) - by mixing the RGB, offsets, Gains etc.

The Yellow Push or for that matter Red Push is a product of the saturation being all messed up in the LIVING settings, this must be adjusted with the colour management feature.

Reset the RGB settings to my initial numbers.

Then load up colour management and follow the instructions in my tweaks DOC published a few posts earlier.

ROne.

Thanks ROne.

I guess that I had been playing with changing and saving settings so much that I decided to wipe the slate clean and start over again.

So I restored your original (and CKL's) settings as well as one (User 4) I had made myself based on Living also.

I also erased all of the color management settings I had done for each of the User 1,2,3,4. Plan to do the color management again once it gets dark tonight.

One further question that I will probably explore tonight.

Do the User settings that I entered with the hdmi input (my dvd) also carry over to the component input (my HD cable) or do I have to enter the numbers again for the different inputs?

Shelly

thinking about it shelly. i think dvdr had the same problem with his oppo and my settings. i am sure we concluded that it was the relation of hdmi pc levels being passed correctly to the z4 and the contrast position. if the contrast was set to high which may occur with the wrong hdmi setting then the greyscale will turn yellowish. this is not push from bad saturation though. scan back thru the posts to see our discussion.

So I restored your original (and CKL's) settings as well as one (User 4) I had made myself based on Living also.
I forgot about CKL's. Will have to try that. Set CC to ROne's settings yesterday with the iScan at DVI PC levels. Blacks definitely better then with DVI Video levels but presumably that would balance itself if calibrated using the different settings. In retrospect I don't think I set the Z4's input to PC so there may be an imbalance there. Ran out of time to input Living and run an Avia cal for comparison. I found the CC setting to look OK but I wasn't particularly blown away. I found the blacks to be more murky gray which disappointed me. But somewhat expected as calibration numbers can't be simply transfered between systems with the same results. At least it's a good starting point.

Screen door is definitely visible at 11' from an 87" wide, 100" diagonal HCCV screen. Gone in the second row at 17'. It's not a huge issue in the front row, merely a slight veil, but there nevertheless. Projector Central's report that 1.3x is all that is required for video is generous. But the projector is nice and tight to the ceiling with shift to spare, which was a big thing for me.

I've seen a few references to CKL's tweak settings and haven't seemed to find them in this thread. Must be tired. Can someone reference the location for me or cut and paste?

I found dvdr's Oppo settings based on Living and very close to ROne's. Looks great with the Oppo now. Also I adhered exactly to ROne's Living and CC settings and did not find yellow push this evening.

Sometimes it's best to wipe the slate clean and to enter the settings anew. The mistake I may have made was to not start with the default Living or default Creative Cinema each time I set up a custom User setting.

Also, I find that CKL's settings are washed out with blacks much more gray than with ROne's or dvdr's settings.

Shelly

I've seen a few references to CKL's tweak settings and haven't seemed to find them in this thread. Must be tired. Can someone reference the location for me or cut and paste?
Hi,
the initial settings CKL suggested were as follows:

I copied them from the following website:
http://www.avbuzz.com/audio-video/200510/ckl-sanyo-z4/index.htm

Settings based on Creative Cinema Mode

Brightness +3
Contrast -3
Color +4
Tint 0
Gamma +1 (he set it to +1 to have a bit more detail in the shadows)
Color temp. Mid
Red 0
Green 0
Blue 0
Gain R -5
Gain G -9
Gain B +3
Offset R -15
Offset G +15
Offset B -2
Gamma R +5
Gamma G -5
Gamma B -3
Lamp Iris Auto
Auto black Stretch, Contrast enhacement and Transient improvement all of

Thanks, dvdr.

The settings worked great ROne. Thank You. I think the colors were a bit on the red side but still much better than default. I will tweak to my taste later. I went the Living setting which was brighter than CC for my 147" 2.35:1 screen.

One thing as others have noticed, is the HDMI L1 vs L2. The difference for me was night and day. I was watching a dark scene in Lord of the Rings 1. Black detail was pretty bad until I switched to L2. I was watching the part where Gandalf is looking up the origins of the ring near the beginning and he's in what I guess is an old library which is a good dark shadow filled scene. And switching from L1 to L2 at that point was really shocking. Black blobs turned into detailed areas with black and dark gray. Some have mentioned they feel it washes the picture out but that is not the case. The effect is from turning what started out as very dark blobs to grayscaled parts of the image. The image isn't quite as dark since there isn't as much full black. Colors however aren't changed just the darker parts of an image. Most on here have looked at the HDMI levels but if you haven't you need to.

Do remember guys that on LIVING you have to tweak the saturation via colour management by selecting one or two of the awkward colours.

On CREATIVE CINEMA I've not found a need to do this.

I think built into LIVING preset there is an artificial boost on some parts of the saturation colour spectrum.

Oh and all my calibrations are HDMI L2 – Pc Levels.

I am working on a new set of LIVING values that push a better contrast while just veering off from D65 right at the top, I think it's worth the compromise.

The z4 tweaks doc has been updated with minor additions to iris settings and presets, also got rid of a few typos.

Let me know if anything wants changing.

Thanks ROne,
I was able to get the manual but I don't have a Z2 manual to cross reference the names too. I was only provided with the #'s to change in the factory menu. I suppose I could look at my current Z2 tonight and see if the menus are labeled but a Service manual for the Z2 would be better. Anybody got one?

Hello guys. I 've been following this thread for the past two weeks. Congratulations for the great work to all contributors and especially R1 :) .

I am a proud owner of a Z4 - Oppo combination. Unfortunately didn't have much time for testing.So far I 've watched 4 movies in CC mode.

Yesterday I tried ROne's settings in L1 mode after compensating for Contrast and Brightness using DVE. I liked the highlights of living and the midtones and shadows of CC.

Today I used L2 and there was no need to change brightness and contrast (DVE patterns were OK). Even though they were OK I sensed that there was a lack of information in the dark areas of living. So I boosted brightness a bit and the result was quite impressive :D. Can't wait to test it with my next movie. However in CC mode I feel now that there is a veil on the image.

So here are my questions:
Is it OK to raise brightness even though patterns were OK?
How do you oppo owners setup the player for Z4?

P.S. Keep up the good work! :cool:

Ellessar - all my settings are based around L2 HDMI (which the Oppo must be set for - speak to DVDR?).

Yes you can shift contrast and brightness but it will move away from my calibration points of D65 - but find a happy compromise.

It's true that CC does look like a veil of mist over it - that is the extra contrast of the LIVING preset in action.

I am working on a new set of LIVING values that push a better contrast while just veering off from D65 right at the top, I think it's worth the compromise.

The z4 tweaks doc has been updated with minor additions to iris settings and presets, also got rid of a few typos.

Let me know if anything wants changing.
Thanks. I'll have to try that. I felt that the previous Living setting was a little too contrasty. Lots of punch to the image but not as natural as Creative Cinema. Image is still more digital looking then I would like but I'll get around to playing a bit. I'm hugely appreciative of the work you're doing here as just a raw Avia calibration looks pretty dismal compared to your CC and Living concoctions. Not having the proper tools to go beyond that would create a lot of frustration. I would still like to see better black levels, however. Will have to toy around with the iris settings.

A couple of points of clarification if you would: 1) Which color temperature preset do you choose, and 2) when you refer to LOW lamp mode I presume you mean ECO?

Based on ROne's Living settings:

I have found two ways to increase the shadow detail.

One is to raise the Brightness from the -3 to 0.

The other is to leave Brightness at -3 and change the Gamma from -1 to 0. This is still a shade deeper blacks than the first method.

Which of the two ways has the least affect on other parameters like the D6500, or are they each suitable ways to increase shadow detail?

Thanks.

Shelly

my Z4 with R0ne 'living' settings.

fixed-mounted screen, 1.1 gain (upgrading to 1.3), 100"D
thrown from 17' feet

http://cubedcompanies.com/-old-/celio/z41.jpg
http://cubedcompanies.com/-old-/celio/z42.jpg

my Z4 with R0ne 'living' settings.

fixed-mounted screen, 1.1 gain (upgrading to 1.3), 100"D
thrown from 17' feet

http://www.cubedcompanies.com/-old-/z41.jpg
http://www.cubedcompanies.com/-old-/z42.jpg

Thanks for taking the time to post some Z4 screen shots, which can help others decide on this pj's merits.

However, animation will look great with all of the new projectors. I know that when I was making my decision, I welcomed screenshots showing flesh tones and shadow detail in dark scenes.

Do yoou have any more?

Thanks.

Shelly

A couple of points of clarification if you would: 1) Which color temperature preset do you choose, and 2) when you refer to LOW lamp mode I presume you mean ECO?

I start with a picture preset i.e LIVING and take the inherent (does it default to LOW1 I can't remember) colour temp and tune it using the spyder2pro.

It doesn't really matter what starting colour temp you use as opposed to where you end up - this is not the case for the presets where the starting point must be drawn from the defaults in the menu.

Yes I mean ECO when I say low.

Based on ROne's Living settings:

I have found two ways to increase the shadow detail.

One is to raise the Brightness from the -3 to 0.

The other is to leave Brightness at -3 and change the Gamma from -1 to 0. This is still a shade deeper blacks than the first method.

Which of the two ways has the least affect on other parameters like the D6500, or are they each suitable ways to increase shadow detail?

Thanks.

Shelly


That would have to be measured I would guess that moving the brightness is most likely to alter the colour balance - certainly from my experience.

They are two different settings though, brightness effectively altering the level of black, gamma altering (simulating) the distribution of dark to bright portions across the picture level.

Gamma will alter shadow detail but not lift the absolute black-level.

I've not had any problems with shadow detail with the LIVING settings but I only calibrate and use my projector in total darkness which would imply they are only suitable for that situation.

Like I say, I'm going to do another run with the LIVING, also don't forget the CC settings in the tweak doc are bang up to date and offer a better level of shadow detail than LIVING.

Thanks for taking the time to post some Z4 screen shots, which can help others decide on this pj's merits.

However, animation will look great with all of the new projectors. I know that when I was making my decision, I welcomed screenshots showing flesh tones and shadow detail in dark scenes.

Do yoou have any more?

Thanks.

Shelly

yeah but they are really blurry... it was my first time using a Canon 20D and i didn't know what i was doing. it's also not the 'good' screen material will be selling so i didn't bother re-taking photos this go-around.

actually, it's good material but it's 1.1 gain and i want the 1.3 gain... so now i'm waiting on that.

Thanks ROne.

I had always wondered what the differences between changing brightness and changing gamma settings.

What I would really like is something between your Living and your Creative Cinema settings. Moving the Gamma to 0 from -1 in your Living settings sort of gets me there.

True, the CC has mose shadow detail but the black level is not sufficiently dark enough for my tastes. I do not have a light controlled room so my "taste" is influenced by my light colored walls and however dark it is outside when I start to view the pj.

Shelly

It doesn't really matter what starting colour temp you use as opposed to where you end up - this is not the case for the presets where the starting point must be drawn from the defaults in the menu.
That's what I suspected. I really like the modified Living setting that you posted. Smoother contrast then before with a deeper black (or perceived black, thanks to the higher CR).

Question re: color management on the Living preset (or any, for that matter). Instead of choosing a skin tone would an alternative (and more objective) means of adjustment be to bring up Avia's color decoder check, target the 0% red block, and then adjust the color such that it matches the background using the red filter? It essentially removes red push while maintaining greens and blues.

ROne, one final question. After all you've done for those following this thread I'm wondering if you might have a grayscale calibration on your to-do list for black and white movies?

Cubed, great screenshots. Great camera - I'm jealous as hell. Been lusting after the 20D since it was first released. The new 5D looks pretty sweet with full frame and 12MP chip. Sorry for OT.

sadly, the 20D isn't my camera so i didn't take as many photos as 'professional' as i was hoping to. :( i just got my sales tax license for this company we're going to do so i tried to mock a photo-shoot but it kinda failed. i'll have another chance closer to new years to borrow the camera again.

the good news is i'll have a lot of accurate photos of all the different samples sold by screen companies for anyone needing to reference Z4 performance on different materials.

my camera is a pocket cam and it sucks for dark shots.

my camera is a pocket cam and it sucks for dark shots.
They don't have the dynamic range, and can't handle low light without lots of noise.

On another (back to topic note) I'm open for suggestions on demo material that will knock people's socks off. This weekend will be the official "launch" at home (finishing the theater is a X-Mas gift for the family) and I haven't had time to consider what I'm going to throw in there.

Question re: color management on the Living preset (or any, for that matter). Instead of choosing a skin tone would an alternative (and more objective) means of adjustment be to bring up Avia's color decoder check, target the 0% red block, and then adjust the color such that it matches the background using the red filter? It essentially removes red push while maintaining greens and blues.

ROne, one final question. After all you've done for those following this thread I'm wondering if you might have a grayscale calibration on your to-do list for black and white movies?



Re: Color management.

Believe it or not this was my first methodology I tried when faced with this problem.

I did exactly as you say, I found that blue and green were lacking (red was being pushed) - and made the changes. However this didn't seem to effect the picture appropriately, flicking back between movies - skin tones were still miles off.

So something else was still going off here, I then came up with the skin tone method because I realised that it's relatively easy to judge flesh as a bench-mark.

I don't exactly know what is going on with LIVINGs colour especially as the colour decoding shouldn't express any problems due to a digital transferall of colour information.

Having said all that I make 3 colour adjusments across a couple of movies and I have a subjectively decent saturation.

As for B/W picture it's not something I've been bothered to do - I believe they are rated at 5500k - not 100% sure.

tyrone.

Hello everyone-newbie here. I have been following your tweak threads with great interest, in fact is what solidified my decision to buy the projector. The Z4 is a replacement for my PLV 60 and I admittedly was very anxious to see if I had done the right thing. I got my new projector last night and like a kid on Christmas, tore it open fired it up and I am not disappointed a bit. My PLV 60 was SMART calibrated, and out of the box the Z4 blew me away in comparison. Much sharper, much better contrast, much quiter, much cheaper :)

My question is, that I have seen a few inquiries but no replies as to if anyone has done any tweaks to the component inputs on this thing yet? ROne-my hat is off to you sir for the work you have done so far, I unfortunately do not have an HDMI source yet and wanted to know if any of the tweaks even apply across inputs? This is probably a very dumb question, but need a place to start nonetheless.

So something else was still going off here, I then came up with the skin tone method because I realised that it's relatively easy to judge flesh as a bench-mark.

As for B/W picture it's not something I've been bothered to do - I believe they are rated at 5500k - not 100% sure.
Interesting. I'll run with the flesh tone correction then. I can't think of a better example off the top of my head then Leeloo's closeup while on the building ledge in The Fifth Element.

Re: B&W you're correct - 5500 is the target. I'd love to see how that looks.

I have been using ROne's settings and find them to be excellent. But I have not been bothered at all by the skin tones or the colors. This has been for HD material, however. The recent broadcast of The Office is a good example. Excellent quality and normal skin tones. I find more variation between programs than anything else. CSI Maimi, for example, has a yellow cast that is normal for that show. Anyone else satisfied without tweaking the color?

Dick

I've taken some still shots with a Canon Digital Ixus. I've used the settings from ROne for Creative Cinema in eco mode. The screen is a Carada Brilliant White 104".

It's quite hard to catch how sharp the picture really is without flash, but it's as good as I'm able to shoot it. I would've liked to get some more black and white shots and some from epic technicolor movies like Scaramouche and Adventures of Robin Hood, but the battery went low. I will make them though if people want me too.

I have compressed the files, so they're about 50K each in size.

http://www.filmbuff.dk/filer/2.jpg (122K)
http://www.filmbuff.dk/filer/001.jpg
http://www.filmbuff.dk/filer/002.jpg
http://www.filmbuff.dk/filer/003.jpg
http://www.filmbuff.dk/filer/004.jpg
http://www.filmbuff.dk/filer/005.jpg
http://www.filmbuff.dk/filer/006.jpg
http://www.filmbuff.dk/filer/007.jpg
http://www.filmbuff.dk/filer/008.jpg
http://www.filmbuff.dk/filer/009.jpg
http://www.filmbuff.dk/filer/010.jpg
http://www.filmbuff.dk/filer/011.jpg
http://www.filmbuff.dk/filer/012.jpg

Wow those look great, especially since I am leaning toward the Z4 with a Carada BW.

I, for one, would be interested in seeing some more shots.

Pete

Swearengen, thanks for posting those shots! Please post more. I have been waiting to see some screen shots from the Z4 as well as the Epson 550 and Hitachi HDPJ52. I can't find anyplace in my area that has these on display. From what it looks like, the black levels look great as far as I can see. I will be using a 96" Carada screen. What setup are you using?

Swearengen, thanks for posting those shots! Please post more. I have been waiting to see some screen shots from the Z4 as well as the Epson 550 and Hitachi HDPJ52. I can't find anyplace in my area that has these on display. From what it looks like, the black levels look great as far as I can see. I will be using a 96" Carada screen. What setup are you using?

I will try to post some more in a day or two. A special occasion is coming up :)

My setup is Denon DVD-3910, Denon AVR-3806, B&W 603 fronts, B&W LCR600 center and 4 B&W DS6-S3 surround speakers and ASW-600 sub. I use DVI-Gear HDMI cable and Denon Link for sound.

I'm very satisfied with the black levels and benefit greately from the works of others (ROne, Avbuzz, CKL). Hope they will continue :)

It looks as if I have changed a setup in the service menu on the Z4, since a Sanyo Z4 logo keeps coming in the bottom right/left corner :(

Merry Christmas everybody!

Wow those look great, especially since I am leaning toward the Z4 with a Carada BW.

I, for one, would be interested in seeing some more shots.

Pete

I posted some screen shots on page 38 of the main Z4 threrad

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=575249&page=38&pp=30

See posts #'s 1137, 1138, 1139.

Shelly

Thanks Shelly! The picture looks awesome! The football games look unreal. I'm excited for what the future brings.

Hey swearengen

i was taking a look at your link here under "home theater" and was wondering if you can translate this blog post

http://www.filmbuff.dk/cinemaniac/2005/11/13/another-fine-mess.html

i can't get any web translators to work properly.

thanks



I will try to post some more in a day or two. A special occasion is coming up :)

My setup is Denon DVD-3910, Denon AVR-3806, B&W 603 fronts, B&W LCR600 center and 4 B&W DS6-S3 surround speakers and ASW-600 sub. I use DVI-Gear HDMI cable and Denon Link for sound.

I'm very satisfied with the black levels and benefit greately from the works of others (ROne, Avbuzz, CKL). Hope they will continue :)

It looks as if I have changed a setup in the service menu on the Z4, since a Sanyo Z4 logo keeps coming in the bottom right/left corner :(

Merry Christmas everybody!

Hi ROne, use this. It's in Danish I believe. That is as close as I could figure.

http://www.translation-guide.com/free_online_translators.php?from=Danish&to=English

Looking for some input as to how the Z4 controls interact with one another. On my system I'm noticing ROne's CC and Living settings can look a bit too harsh. As I watched a movie this evening I did some preliminary adjustments by reducing contrast and increasing gamma slightly. Seemed to balance the picture better, but clearly some scenes were much better than others (movie was Four Brothers with Mark Wahlburg).

I am working on a new set of LIVING values that push a better contrast while just veering off from D65 right at the top, I think it's worth the compromise.

The z4 tweaks doc has been updated with minor additions to iris settings and presets, also got rid of a few typos.

Let me know if anything wants changing.

Hi Rone.

Any progress that you can report on the new Living settings?

Thanks.

Shelly

Hi everybody……..I’m a new member from France and after reading many posts I finally decided to register. I own a Sanyo Z4 and I’m using an OPPO 971 via HDMI 720P.
Yesterday I tried some of the settings posted by RONE………many thanks by the way because they look great on my system.
I went into the service menu to try the Lamp IRIS option and by mistake I modified a setting but could not remember what was the default value.
The setting that was modified is in the « 105 » group but I dont remember which item it is (not the 4 & 10 for sure !). I was wondering if someone could give me all the default setting values for item 105 (I think there are about 10 different ones) ? :)

Also I noticed that the Auto Iris seems not to close as much as before and I’m wondering why since default values haven’t been modified………………………could it be broken ?? :confused:

Hi everybody……..I’m a new member from France and after reading many posts I finally decided to register. I own a Sanyo Z4 and I’m using an OPPO 971 via HDMI 720P.
Yesterday I tried some of the settings posted by RONE………many thanks by the way because they look great on my system.
I went into the service menu to try the Lamp IRIS option and by mistake I modified a setting but could not remember what was the default value.
The setting that was modified is in the « 105 » group but I dont remember which item it is (not the 4 & 10 for sure !). I was wondering if someone could give me all the default setting values for item 105 (I think there are about 10 different ones) ? :)

Also I noticed that the Auto Iris seems not to close as much as before and I’m wondering why since default values haven’t been modified………………………could it be broken ?? :confused:

Tut tut ... you should be very careful when messing with this - at least next time grab the service menu pdf so you know what you are doing.

Anyway here are the defaults for 105.

0 50

1 200

2 200

3 5

4 4/4

5 64

6 0/22

7 63/63

8 33

9 63

10 4/4

11 0

12 128

13 22

14 0

Hi Rone.

Any progress that you can report on the new Living settings?

Thanks.

Shelly

Sorry shelly, I've had a projector free christmas break - will get on with it soon ...

Thanks everybody for the postings. I have been following this thread with great interest as I was setting my sight on Z4 as my next projector. Now I am in the Z4 club as new owner and trying to figure out how to implement all the tweaks to get the best picture out of Z4. It seems that most of ROne’s settings and others’ are based on HDMI L2, but L2 just doesn’t look as good as L1 in term of sharpness and other picture quality on my setup which is Oppo or HDTV box to Z4 via HDMI switch with 720p only. I guess I may be missing something here or it was just my first rough impression. I know that dvdr had experimented some settings with Oppo/Z4 combo (by the way, can you post your settings? Joerg) , but I imagine the settings would only be applicable to Oppo but not to HDTV box. So should I stick with L1 or tweak in L2? Also, a question for ROne, have you tried to lower the default auto iris limits for CC or Living to get better black in dark scenes? Your tweak document only suggests ways for changing them on Dynamic/Powerful/Vivid, but how about tweaking those values in CC or Living? Thanks a lot for your answers.

Sorry shelly, I've had a projector free christmas break - will get on with it soon ...

No apology necessary. You've contributed so much helpful tweaking to all of us already that any more is just gravy, as we say.

Shelly

Since the Oppo - Z4 combo is quite common here let's list our settings.

I use ROne's living tweak through HDMI L2. After watching carefully the DVE pluge patterns brightness and contrast are at the optimal point by default. The picture is very "contrasty" and alive. I haven't used the color correction because I find all the face colors pretty natural.

Oppo is set to: B:0 C:0 Video 2 (PAL cadence). Firmware:1111b

However I am still a little sceptical, if ROne's settings can be transfered to another device just like that. But since brightness and contrast seem OK maybe this is a good starting point.

Still waiting for my screen, projecting now on a white wall.

Thanks everybody for the postings. I have been following this thread with great interest as I was setting my sight on Z4 as my next projector. Now I am in the Z4 club as new owner and trying to figure out how to implement all the tweaks to get the best picture out of Z4. It seems that most of ROne’s settings and others’ are based on HDMI L2, but L2 just doesn’t look as good as L1 in term of sharpness and other picture quality on my setup which is Oppo or HDTV box to Z4 via HDMI switch with 720p only. I guess I may be missing something here or it was just my first rough impression. I know that dvdr had experimented some settings with Oppo/Z4 combo (by the way, can you post your settings? Joerg) , but I imagine the settings would only be applicable to Oppo but not to HDTV box. So should I stick with L1 or tweak in L2? Also, a question for ROne, have you tried to lower the default auto iris limits for CC or Living to get better black in dark scenes? Your tweak document only suggests ways for changing them on Dynamic/Powerful/Vivid, but how about tweaking those values in CC or Living? Thanks a lot for your answers.

I really can't speak for the OPPO - maybe I should get one (are they available in the UK?) - The HDMI settings are critical in terms of my settings and matching your player and projector, though I know nothing about the OPPO so can't advise.

I have not tried tweaking the iris in CC or LIVING, but you're correct we could make it go lower. I will try it at some point.

I watched a movie in CC last night and I can see the iris moving more than in LIVING without a shadow of doubt, which is interesting because I'm sure it shares the same iris settings.

Since the Oppo - Z4 combo is quite common here let's list our settings.

I use ROne's living tweak through HDMI L2. After watching carefully the DVE pluge patterns brightness and contrast are at the optimal point by default. The picture is very "contrasty" and alive. I haven't used the color correction because I find all the face colors pretty natural.

Oppo is set to: B:0 C:0 Video 2 (PAL cadence). Firmware:1111b

However I am still a little sceptical, if ROne's settings can be transfered to another device just like that. But since brightness and contrast seem OK maybe this is a good starting point.

Still waiting for my screen, projecting now on a white wall.

In an ideal world your source settings should be default as are my graphics card's - you want it to pass a signal without boosting or cutting anything.

This way your are in effect matching only your display device to the numbers I have on my set-up.

Maybe you OPPO users should get together and see if there is a common set of transferable values.

Thank you very much ROne and ellessar for your replies. Thanks, ellessar for sharing your oppo settings, I will try it tonight and see if it helps.
ROne, I think it’s a good idea to have an Oppo/Z4 setting as a reference for a lot users here, since the video output characteristics seem to vary quite a bit from source to source. But then when it comes to HDTV signal I guess it can be a whole different ball game. ROne, have you had any viewing of HDTV from a STB or thru your PC? I am just curious to know if HDMI L2 can be equally good for HDTV. Perhaps, Shelly, you can shed some light on that question; since I saw you did both.
As you mentioned, ROne, the HDMI settings being critical in determining the picture quality, I wonder if it is a correct understanding that HDMI L1 on Z4 will enhance the signals while L2 will let them pass as they are. If that is the case then what kind of enhancement the L1 really does? It seems to smooth out the image and make it sharper. That just my impression so far (in only about 20 hours of usage). Jim

Hi again!

I've obviously messed with a service menu setting. The text "Sanyo Z4" keeps displaying in the lower left/right corner of the picture. I've read the PDF document, but I can't seem to find a parameter indicating this. Menu 100 group 2 is the closest I can come, forced brand logo, but this is set to 0, default.

Anyone who knows about why I've got this text?

And to PinPoint:
The article above in danish, is just some reflections over the Cine4Home review, which is beeing linked to on an earlier page.

Regards
Flemming

I wonder if it is a correct understanding that HDMI L1 on Z4 will enhance the signals while L2 will let them pass as they are.

From my (little) experience I understand that
L1 --> Studio Levels (16-235)
L2 --> Pc levels (0-255)
It affects only the black and white level (brightness, contrast). So in two properly calibrated systems the two settings should be identical.

Tonight I connected my Comcast HD DVR with hdmi as well as component cables. Both outputs are active at the same time.

I froze several different screen shots from different hd sources and toggled back and forth and back and forth, concentrating on specific colors and details...red caps, blue sky, lettering on football uniforms et al.

I was very surprised at what I saw.

Shelly




Nah, just a teaser.

The component connection had much more zing and impact. The colors were a step or two deeper and brighter with more contrast. There was no picture noise with either connection and I did not change the User setting I was using for each scene. In fact I used several User settings and the differrence was the same with each. The component connection increased the picture quality for me.

The more I went back and forth, the more I saw the differences. The hdmi looked very natural and great on its own, but when the same scene was through the component cables, it was much more enjoyable to watch. The picture was more vivid (I'm running out of adjectives). Not quite the difference between Creative Cinema and Living but about 1/3 of the way there.

I have not checked this with dvd as my Oppo does not have 720p through the component cables, and the unit I replaced (Panasonic RP91--a great player for music and video) does not have digital video (hdmi) output.

I might put the Pan 91 back into my system (using my receiver as the switchbox) but I would have to have 2 copies of a dvd to compare back and forth. By the time I managed to switch the dvd from one player to the other, I would probably forget what the first looked like.

But for now, I am sold that HD looks better with my component 720p connection from the Comcast dvr.

Shelly

From my (little) experience I understand that
L1 --> Studio Levels (16-235)
L2 --> Pc levels (0-255)
It affects only the black and white level (brightness, contrast). So in two properly calibrated systems the two settings should be identical.

Ellessa, I think you are right about the L1 and L2. I had chance of looking closely tonight as I was switching between L1 and L2 within the same setting, and this time the only difference I noticed was L2 being slightly brighter and thus bringing out more detail. My initial impression was probably based on comparing L1 and L2 in two different settings, therefore totally inaccurate. Thanks guys for great info. I think now I’d better calibrating Z4 in L2 as it offers more range. I also plugged in ROne's CC and Living settings. They looked great. I just hope the auto iris can close down a bit more in CC or Living as in dynamic mode but not as quick.

From my (little) experience I understand that
L1 --> Studio Levels (16-235)
L2 --> Pc levels (0-255)
It affects only the black and white level (brightness, contrast). So in two properly calibrated systems the two settings should be identical.

This correct - the key thing for us though is that the contrast and brightness are positioned at different values for each HDMI setting - which in turn effects greyscale.

Tut tut ... you should be very careful when messing with this - at least next time grab the service menu pdf so you know what you are doing.

Anyway here are the defaults for 105.

0 50

1 200

2 200

3 5

4 4/4

5 64

6 0/22

7 63/63

8 33

9 63

10 4/4

11 0

12 128

13 22

14 0

Thanks a lot RONE, in the meantime I was able to get the PDF service manual....and I solved a shading problem in ajusting white level in the service menu.....................

I think now I’d better calibrating Z4 in L2 as it offers more range.

There is no need for additional range if you reproduce DVDs, since they are encoded in the 16-235 range (at least the visible data). Trying to map DVDs to the 0-255 range can be a problem since Blacker than Black and Above White information can be lost. There are many posts over the calibration subforum about these issues. You only need L2 if you try to reproduce ROne's results (haven't cleared out if you need it for HTPC reproduction, any clues?).

Well, I was rained out of work today so I watched some HD during the day. The sun came in and out between showers in my non light controlled room so it was light but not super bright most of the time.

I decided to play with the Powerful which is very suitable for daytime viewing of, especially, hd sports.

Starting with Powerful, I kept all settings at the default 0 for the most part but made the following changes: Brightness -10
Color Temp Mid
G +2
B -8
Lens Iris -32
Lamp Low
Lamp Iris Open (yet to do service menu Auto tweak)
Auto Black Off
Contrast En Off
Transient L1

Also tweaked green lowering intensity two notches in color management. Tweaked blue away from the purple tone. Tweaked skin tone to add more red.

Wow picture although probably not near D6500, but very watchable, great skin tones and vibrant color and contrast. With Iris Open, no bothersome opening and closing, and the blacks are deep enough. Works for HDmovies as well but needed to turn down color few notches in regular Color setting, not color management. I find this to be true even using ROne's and my own Living settings for HD movies.

It's dark out now and the picture is just bouncing off the screen in a good way. Watching Raiders-Giants game. No eye strain. Might be hard for me to go back to ROne's great Living settings. Actually not going back tonight.

I do not care for any of the Creative Cinema tweaked settings at all when compared to ROne's Living and some of my own more vibrant ones.

Fun to play with the Z4. Wish it had 2 or 3 more User settings. But right now, I'm saving one User setting for ROne's improved Living setting hopefully coming in the new year.

Shelly

"Fun to play with the Z4. Wish it had 2 or 3 more User settings"


wish we can name these settings as well.

There is no need for additional range if you reproduce DVDs, since they are encoded in the 16-235 range (at least the visible data). Trying to map DVDs to the 0-255 range can be a problem since Blacker than Black and Above White information can be lost. There are many posts over the calibration subforum about these issues. You only need L2 if you try to reproduce ROne's results (haven't cleared out if you need it for HTPC reproduction, any clues?).
so are all DVD signals no matter where they come from being Oppo or Sony, encoded 16-235? Obviously they had something to do with the player source, because ROne calibrate his on L2 for all DVDs with his PC video output. But if that is the case then L2 for Oppo or most other DVD players would definitely be wrong since it would mess up your black and white displays at the two ends. By the way, ellessar, can you point me to the threads that discuss about the subject? I appreciate very much your help. Anyone has idea about the encoded range for HDTV?

Its a simple case of matching the output of the source to the display device.

For instance the Z4 has both Standard (video) and enhanced (PC) - as I use my HTPC with VMR output I want to pass the whole signal keeping the correct range BTB / WTW, without any clipping of source signal. I do this by using the enhanced L2 setting of the z4.

If the OPPO has the ability to pass PC levels then the benefit is you can maybe use my settings as they are based around L2.

There is no other benefit to DVD player users other than the ability to copy my settings whether you use L1 or L2 - or at least that I know of.

I have been using ROne's settings (or slight variations of) with the Oppo and have switched back and forth rom L1 to L2 on several occasions. Sometimes I think that I'd rather keep tweaking than actually watch something. :)

What I see, and I emphasize see because I make no measurements nor use a calibiration disc, is that L1 darkens the picture and you can lose some shadow detail, whereas L2 lightens the picture. This appears to be the equivilant of changing the Gamma one step from say, -1 to 0 of 0 to +1. I find the blacks deep enough for me so I opt for a bit more shadow detail and keep using L2.

Shelly

Edit: Although my observations above still hold true about the differences between L1 and L2, I have decided to try L1 for a while. To compensate for the blacker blacks, I have increased ROne's Living Gamma setting from his -1 to +1. For the moment I appear to have much deeper blacks while rretaining more shadow detail.

I'm using Comcast HD dvr vis 720p component and Oppo dvd via 720p dvi to hdmi.

anyone having problems with blown out highlights? Also, the highlights are way too yellow. I've been tweaking for a while and can't seem to soft clip the highlights.

FYI: These highlight are mostly from SD at 480p. Bought a 1080 upscaling dvd player over HDMI and looks better in the highlights, but still the overall color isn't that great.

By the way, can you point me to the threads that discuss about the subject?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6330772&&#post6330772

Actually, that Source Option thread brings up a question. My DVD player can be set to 0 or 7 IRE. For the above settings with L2 which is correct? My guess is 0 IRE as it's consistent with the wider range of L2/PC levels. Apologies if this has already been covered.

ellessar, thanks for pointing the thread! I think it should be a mandatory read for any newcomers like me who attempts to do a little tweaking on the Z4 and follows this thread. It has now become clear to me that L2 should NOT be used for Oppo and HDTV which are both encoded at 16-235. No wonder I see elevated black levels with L2 which is perceived to bring out more black detail but in the meantime the pictures seem muted with white highlights, because L2 setting on the Z4 (0-255) is missing all the whites in the 235 to 255 range. Now back to the drawing board (no shortcut here by copying ROne's L2, :() , I am going to calibrate with Avia on L1 for Oppo and HDTV. Anybody wants to post some settings on L1 as a starting point? Thanks very much.

Actually, that Source Option thread brings up a question. My DVD player can be set to 0 or 7 IRE. For the above settings with L2 which is correct? My guess is 0 IRE as it's consistent with the wider range of L2/PC levels. Apologies if this has already been covered.
I think the article says that if you are using digital output which is L1 or L2 on Z4's HDMI port then IRE settings are irrelavant. IRE is mV number for analog output. HDMI carries signals in bitstream which has a range of 0-255 (8bits).

I think the article says that if you are using digital output which is L1 or L2 on Z4's HDMI port then IRE settings are irrelavant. IRE is mV number for analog output. HDMI carries signals in bitstream which has a range of 0-255 (8bits).
Connection from DVD to iScan is component, then from iScan to Z4 via HDMI in my setup.

Connection from DVD to iScan is component, then from iScan to Z4 via HDMI in my setup.
hi, Jay, I think your DVD player sees the number 16 as black and 235 as white from the DVD content, and then it converts those numbers to either 0 IRE being black or 7.5 IRE being black depending upon your choosing. As long as your iscan sees the signal in same way you wouldn’t have any problem with correct B/W. One thing for sure though is that iscan is likely to then map those mV(IRE) numbers in 16-235 range for HDMI output unless you force it to output in PC levels (does it do that? I don’t know since I don’t own an iscan). If the HDMI is indeed sending out signals in Studio format (L1) then your Z4 has to follow. Just my rudimentary understanding of the subject anyway. Jim

Sorry for posting this again, but I haven't been able to find a solution, so now I try one last time here.

I've obviously messed with a service menu setting. The text "Sanyo Z4" keeps displaying in the lower left/right corner of the picture. I've read the PDF document, but I can't seem to find a parameter indicating this. Menu 100 group 2 is the closest I can come, forced brand logo, but this is set to 0, default.

Anyone who knows how to get rid of this?

iscan is likely to then map those mV(IRE) numbers in 16-235 range for HDMI output unless you force it to output in PC levels (does it do that? I don’t know since I don’t own an iscan).
Yes, you can specify L1 or L2 levels, although they are referred to as DVIV and DVIP respectively.

It has now become clear to me that L2 should NOT be used for Oppo and HDTV which are both encoded at 16-235. No wonder I see elevated black levels with L2 which is perceived to bring out more black detail but in the meantime the pictures seem muted with white highlights, because L2 setting on the Z4 (0-255) is missing all the whites in the 235 to 255 range.

Actually, as I said in one of my previous posts I am using ROne's settings with oppo and L2 on the Sanyo. The DVE test patterns seem OK at least for Brightness and Contrast (16-235). I haven't tested the saturation pattern.

Right, I think I'm going to get myself one of these oppo's just compare it to my HTPC and see what we can achieve.

Is there anything I should know about this player before I dive in - any threads anyone can point me to? I'll have a look around and see what I can dig up.

Actually, as I said in one of my previous posts I am using ROne's settings with oppo and L2 on the Sanyo. The DVE test patterns seem OK at least for Brightness and Contrast (16-235). I haven't tested the saturation pattern.

Is your Oppo set to L2 as well(is it capable? Sorry I haven’t play with it enough to know)? Because otherwise the Z4 on L2 is not going to display number 16 at pure black and 235 as pure white(excluding those BTB and WTW numbers). What you end up with are images mostly without deep black (0-15) or bright white (236-255). I am curious to know the difference your DVE pattern would show on L1 vs L2. I know for HDTV contents they are certainly mastered with Studio video format not the PC kind. So for HDMI input on the Z4, L1 may have to be selected.

It looks like the latest OPPO fimware is setup for studio (video 16-235) levels.

My settings will not work with this - I would have to select L1 and re-calibrate B&C on the Z4 and then do grayscale.

Right, I think I'm going to get myself one of these oppo's just compare it to my HTPC and see what we can achieve.

Is there anything I should know about this player before I dive in - any threads anyone can point me too? I'll have a look around and see what I can dig up.

here is a good review of Oppo: http://www.projectorcentral.com/oppo_opdv971h_dvd_player.htm
on this forum there are so many threads about the Oppo, the official ones are:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=491306&highlight=oppo
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=482239
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=493616&highlight=oppo

most online dealers carry it at the fixed price for $199 or you can get a refurbed one directly from Oppo for quite a bit less than that. I think it is a great DVD player with Z4.

It looks like the latest OPPO fimware is setup for studio (video 16-235) levels.

My settings will not work with this - I would have to select L1 and re-calibrate B&C on the Z4 and then do grayscale.

Edited post:

I have been using L1 with your settings, except I moved Gamma to +2 from your -1.

Brightness is at 0 from your -3.

There are a few instances when shadow detail is still not as much as I would want but the overall depth of picture and black is much improved with these settings for now.

But who knows. I may change things again by tomorrow. Too many choices with the Z4.

Actually, I do hope that you are able to calibrate Living again using the Oppo dvd player dvi to hdmi output.

Shelly

What is the preferred method for setting contrast on a non-CRT device? I'm used to looking for blooming and geometric distortion, neither of which are issues with a fixed pixel display.

Tonight I connected my Comcast HD DVR with hdmi as well as component cables. Both outputs are active at the same time.

I froze several different screen shots from different hd sources and toggled back and forth and back and forth, concentrating on specific colors and details...red caps, blue sky, lettering on football uniforms et al.

I was very surprised at what I saw.

Shelly




Nah, just a teaser.

The component connection had much more zing and impact. The colors were a step or two deeper and brighter with more contrast. There was no picture noise with either connection and I did not change the User setting I was using for each scene. In fact I used several User settings and the differrence was the same with each. The component connection increased the picture quality for me.

The more I went back and forth, the more I saw the differences. The hdmi looked very natural and great on its own, but when the same scene was through the component cables, it was much more enjoyable to watch. The picture was more vivid (I'm running out of adjectives). Not quite the difference between Creative Cinema and Living but about 1/3 of the way there.

I have not checked this with dvd as my Oppo does not have 720p through the component cables, and the unit I replaced (Panasonic RP91--a great player for music and video) does not have digital video (hdmi) output.

I might put the Pan 91 back into my system (using my receiver as the switchbox) but I would have to have 2 copies of a dvd to compare back and forth. By the time I managed to switch the dvd from one player to the other, I would probably forget what the first looked like.

But for now, I am sold that HD looks better with my component 720p connection from the Comcast dvr.

Shelly


Well THIS is THE post I was waiting for!!
TYVVM Shelly!!

TBO I think this post nailed it down for me, I was considering the AE900, but didn't like the sound of the smoothscreen(or the comments about it in reviews etc...), I sit exactly 1.5X away from where the screen will be ( I want 100").
I was a lil perturbed by a user review that I read at PRC, where the user stated that using COMPONENT connection dropped the resolution to only 1024, and I wasn't fond of the idea of having to drop ANOTHER $1-200 on an HDMI switcher.

Imagine, I read this WHOLE thread to get that 1 nugget....
Hows that for being patient and using the search feature? :D

I have been using L1 with your settings, except I moved Gamma to +1 from your -1.

Contrast and brightness are tweaked a bit depending on time of day and ambient light level in my room, but usually left alone.

Oterwise the L1 with Gamma +1 with your Living settings work for me. Deep black and shadow detail.

Shelly

The settings for L1 are different than my settings for L2 by a reasonable margin. I know this because when I was doing L2 greyscale one time I had a quick go with L1 settings and the contrast and brightness were in quite different positions as were the gains and offsets.

I think to settle this maybe I should do some L1 settings so that comparisons can be made to L2 and PC Levels.

I've got a feeling that people on here take my L2 setting and plumb them in and maybe they are only getting half the picture if their system is configured for studio levels.

Also Shelly, what you say about component on your system having more Zing, to me implies that they are more correctly calibrated than your HDMI numbers - perhaps (which in turn maybe comes from having L2 numbers instead of L1 numbers.)

It's just a thought...

I will get my component DVD player back tonight (at long last) and take a look ...

I sit exactly 1.5X away from where the screen will be ( I want 100").
Can't remember if I mentioned it earlier in this thread or the official, but 1.5x for me is borderline with a 100" screen (11' ish). I can notice a slight veil of image structure. From my second row which is about 17' back or so the image is much better. Between those two points is a good compromise for a crisp picture that doesn't show pixels but is large enough to fill your field of vision.

Also Shelly, what you say about component on your system having more Zing, to me implies that they are more correctly calibrated than your HDMI numbers - perhaps (which in turn maybe comes from having L2 numbers instead of L1 numbers.)

It's just a thought...

I will get my component DVD player back tonight (at long last) and take a look ...

ROne, I am using your hdmi numbers with my component 720p connection. I assume that the L1 or L2 do not apply to the component connection.

I edited my post about the settings I use for my L1 hdmi connection when I realized that I had changed the Gamma to +2, not +1 from your -1, and had changed Brightness to 0 from your -3.

I keep one User setting for my component connection using your original settings (even though they were for hdmi, they work great for me with component 720p).

But you are correct in your assessment that the other settings (offset, gain, rgb et al) probably need to be changed if I am using L1.

But my component 720p connection is fanstastic with any live event. Movies often need a bit of tweaking due to the variablity of each hd movie channel.

I still have not tried my 480p dvd player over component to match against the L1 hdmi Oppo settings over dvi/hdmi.

ROne, are you planing to do L1 calibration with 720p hdmi? In fact, isn't it correct that the L1 or L2 only apply to the hdmi and are not applied with any component connection?

Shelly

I don't think L1/L2 will affect the color temp. It just affects the black level. You need to adjust the contrast and brightness to fit either L1/L2 to display proper black and white level. So using either L1/L2 is OK when you set the proper black and white levels at the projector and DVD player. Most of the cases, the so called video level actually doesn't cut BTB levels but have different black level from PC level.

I don't think L1/L2 will affect the color temp. It just affects the black level. You need to adjust the contrast and brightness to fit either L1/L2 to display proper black and white level. So using either L1/L2 is OK when you set the proper black and white levels at the projector and DVD player. Most of the cases, the so called video level actually doesn't cut BTB levels but have different black level from PC level.

It does effect colour temp and greyscale because the position of the contrast and brightness changes relative to the L- setting.

The position of contrast and brightness on the Z4 effects the linearity of the RGB mix mainly towards either end of the intensity scale.

IIRC, contrast tops out at +9 on L2 wereas on L1 contrast is closer to +3.

ROne, I am using your hdmi numbers with my component 720p connection. I assume that the L1 or L2 do not apply to the component connection.

I edited my post about the settings I use for my L1 hdmi connection when I realized that I had changed the Gamma to +2, not +1 from your -1, and had changed Brightness to 0 from your -3.

I keep one User setting for my component connection using your original settings (even though they were for hdmi, they work great for me with component 720p).

But you are correct in your assessment that the other settings (offset, gain, rgb et al) probably need to be changed if I am using L1.

But my component 720p connection is fanstastic with any live event. Movies often need a bit of tweaking due to the variablity of each hd movie channel.

I still have not tried my 480p dvd player over component to match against the L1 hdmi Oppo settings over dvi/hdmi.

ROne, are you planing to do L1 calibration with 720p hdmi? In fact, isn't it correct that the L1 or L2 only apply to the hdmi and are not applied with any component connection?

Shelly

At the moment I have no Hi-def source (save the HTPC bits through TT) so my set-up remains consitent to one source, hence it's difficult for me to give specific comparisons.

There is a direct correlation between changing black level or RGB offsets and contrast or RGB gains - both interact on the Z4 as the linearity of the colour balance moves about depending on where black level or contrast is.

So if black level changes or contrast so does he greyscale, maybe by not a massive amount in the middle but at either end it does.

L1,L2 on applies to HDMI.

I must get hold of my component player...

I am anxiously awaiting Rone's component settings.

Generally speaking, the contrast level will affect the color temp of 90-100IRE when either RGB gain is driven to the clipping level. If the minor variation of contrast caused by L1/L2 incur significant change of color temp along the grayscale, then it is abnormal. In that case, Sanyo Engineer will be blamed for the messy contrast adjustment.

Regarding the L1/L2 subject here is my understanding.

L2 prepares the projector for PC levels 0-255. For example when your are playing a game the black is coded at digital 0. You need the L2 setting in order not to lose the 0-16 information. BUT when your reproduce a DVD black is coded at digital 16. HTPC passes the digital 16 value to the projector. If you set the projector to L1 then at digital 16 you see black, but if you set it to L2 you see gray. That's why you compensate for L2 settings with decreased brightness.

So, in my opinion standalone DVD and HTPC pass the same digital values. That's why I can use ROne's settings with my oppo and L2.

You can view a calibration DVD with your monitor and see that BTB information is clearly visible because the monitor shows black at digital 0.

I am open to suggestions!

(When I refer to IRE here, it means the chart values in AVIA etc.)

The problem with the Z4 within the L2/L1 settings is that the colour balance goes completely bonkers at about 80-100 IRE. (there is a hump in RED and then the usual clipping of red at about 90+ IRE)

To try and account for this various combinations of gain/offset have to be tried, moving the contrast about its position (at least from my D65) values - dramatically effects the greyscale, and then again you have to move the gains to compensate, it's very difficult to get 80-100 IRE correct.

If you put up a 10 bars horizontal grey steps and adjust contrast up and down you can see this awkward behaviour.

The annoyance is you need to drive red harder in preparation for 90IRE and the drop off, but annoyingly at 80-85 IRE there is a massive natural increase of RED!

So you have two choices with the Z4:

Have an exaggerated lump of RED at 80IRE and make 100IRE correct to D65.

Or have a perfect 80IRE at D65 and 100 IRE be way too cool/green.

This is less of a problem with CC than the living setting.

Also at about 40IRE there is a dip that will not go, you can try and compensate for this dip but it will effect everything else - so I just let dip exist.

Now the black level and contrast interact significantly with grey scale on the Z4 – and they exist as at different levels with L2 than with L1, there is no getting away from this! Whether is should or shouldn’t do this is irrelevant! You have to position Brightness and Contrast in different positions to support the L2/L1 switch. When you move the B or C you effectively move the lumps around that exist in the greyscale, so if you compensated for a lump at 80IRE and you lower contrast you are going to effect that bump to some degree or other. This is why I am so specific when I say that if you move contrast or brightness – it will effect the colour balance, there is no getting away from it. I’ve seen it and measured it with the SPYDER.

The degree you will effect it does depend on how much you deviate from my L2 settings.

Most of this comes about because the LIVING setting is quite a frustrating set-up – with the CREATIVE CINEMA preset it is less of an issue as the colour balance is much more sensible.

Regarding the L1/L2 subject here is my understanding.

L2 prepares the projector for PC levels 0-255. For example when your are playing a game the black is coded at digital 0. You need the L2 setting in order not to lose the 0-16 information. BUT when your reproduce a DVD black is coded at digital 16. HTPC passes the digital 16 value to the projector. If you set the projector to L1 then at digital 16 you see black, but if you set it to L2 you see gray. That's why you compensate for L2 settings with decreased brightness.

So, in my opinion standalone DVD and HTPC pass the same digital values. That's why I can use ROne's settings with my oppo and L2.

You can view a calibration DVD with your monitor and see that BTB information is clearly visible because the monitor shows black at digital 0.

I am open to suggestions!

I see that as correct.

But I thought the OPPO was set up for deliverying studio levels?

The OPPO has inherent settings for Brightness/Contrast - as it not? Would this not mean that it would depend heavily how these are configured (whether they are passing BTB down the signal chain or supplying them at studio.) as to whether you should use L1/L2.

I see that as correct.

But I thought the OPPO was set up for deliverying studio levels?

The OPPO has inherent settings for Brightness/Contrast - as it not? Would this not mean that it would depend heavily how these are configured (whether they are passing BTB down the signal chain or supplying them at studio.) as to whether you should use L1/L2.

The Oppo defaults to 0 value for brightness and contrast.

Shelly

The Oppo defaults to 0 value for brightness and contrast.

Shelly

Version: OP971-D-1111B
Release Date: November 22, 2005

Summary of changes in this release:

Default brightness level set to studio level

I just wondered what that meant? Does that mean 0?

no i believe the studio level is the level that a calibrated system is set to instead of their made up default level. So yeah 0 would be studio level then you can adjust + or - from there.

they're previous level must have been set to high or low

ROne

How do you adjust contrast? What pattern or endpoint? The ramp on Digital VE seems like a great tool as it clearly shows the point of clipping.

Version: OP971-D-1111B
Release Date: November 22, 2005

Summary of changes in this release:

Default brightness level set to studio level

I just wondered what that meant? Does that mean 0?

I think it clearly means that the output carries black at 16 and white at 235, and 0-16 being BTB and 236-255 being WTW data. My understanding is that studio level merely indicates where B/W are set, but still has a full range of data 0-255. If you put the data with studio level into L2 which set 0 being black and 255 being white, then all the black data around 16 won't appear so black and white around 235 won't appear so white. Last night to test the hypothesis I switched ROne's setting to L1 and raised the brightness and gamma to match the black level and its detail on L2, and then when I watched the same DVDs I was amazed at how much sunnier some daylight scenes now looked. At least this is my observation so far.

Golf, for reference what are your adjusted L1 values?

no i believe the studio level is the level that a calibrated system is set to instead of their made up default level. So yeah 0 would be studio level then you can adjust + or - from there.

they're previous level must have been set to high or low

I remember that with the previous software, it was recommended to set the Oppo brightness to +3 or something like that. Not necessary with the newest software which I have.

Shelly

Last night to test the hypothesis I switched ROne's setting to L1 and raised the brightness and gamma to match the black level and its detail on L2, and then when I watched the same DVDs I was amazed at how much sunnier some daylight scenes now looked. At least this is my observation so far.

My observations as well. I increased ROne's Living Brightness from -3 to 0 and his -1 Gamma to +2 with hdmi L1.

Things just look blacker and brighter.

Shelly

Golf, for reference what are your adjusted L1 values?
I have to check tonight. But I think the brightness was raised to -1 and gamma to +1 on ROne's CC setting when I switched from L2 to L1 to get the same floor for the black level. Jim

ROne

How do you adjust contrast? What pattern or endpoint? The ramp on Digital VE seems like a great tool as it clearly shows the point of clipping.

I have several points for checking the upper limit of contrast.

The Upper limit I use a combination of smart/spyder which allows me to see the "RED" start to clip.

I use the standard DVE ramp & AVIA to check for where I want the contrast. You can see the Z4 shift in colour balance before it clips. I also have a calibration chart that runs the whole 0-255 with 235-255 emphasised to allow me to pick a point more accurately.

You can of course allow a bit of colour shift if you want, which will give you a bit more contrast but you will stray away from D65 quite dramatically.

My observations as well. I increased ROne's Living Brightness from -3 to 0 and his -1 Gamma to +2 with hdmi L1.

Things just look blacker and brighter.

Shelly

It's likely then you guys have only just found your optimum picture, remember I've been on HTPC L2 calibrated for my settings all along.

The fact that the OPPO should exist at L1 doesn't suprise me.

However, and this is the point I've been trying to make, your D65 points will have shifted - maybe not enough to make a song and dance about, but they will have moved. And will need fresh D65 calibration at L1.

Time has been tough recently but I really hope to make good on the component settings and maybe an OPPO myself in the near future.

Hi

first of all: happy new year (even if I'm a bit late - this is my first post this year)!

I tried to catch up with the thread and discovered a few posts about convergence. It seems to me, that one party says: this is not adjustable in any menue, since this is a mounting issue and thus not tweakable.
Others seem to say: yes, you have to go into the factory menue and adjust it there.

So: where and how can I shift/position R G B on the screen. My blue is a bit left of the other colors, so I'd like to shift blue a bit to the right and 1 pixel up and I would be fine....
Possible or not?

Thanks!

I was wondering if anyone ever played with the Powerful setting? I did, and even though in bright scenes it looked fine, I noticed the image IRIS would get crazy in dark scenes. Way too abrupt, even after setting item 10 in Group 105 to 8 (Service menu). I also noticed a terrible reddish cast over the image when the iris was closed down, while it did not seem to bring any improvement in contrast.

I then played a bit with setting 6 in Group 105 in the service menu, and set it to 16. This did solve my issue (prevents the iris from closing down too much), and this tweaked mode has been my favorite ever since.

Settings (HTPC/720p/dvi, with Geforce 6600 and PureVideo):
- Item 6 (Lamp IRIS Min X): 16
- 6 Lamp IRIS Min X: 16
- Preset: Powerful
- Lamp mode: LOW
- Brightness: -8
- HDMI L2
- Lens Iris -34
- Advanced (Transient etc.): all Off

Note that I have not done any objective color calibration, Í just played a bit until some WMVHD samples looked good to me. In all modes (including ROne's tweaks) faces look too red here, so I had to turn that down in color management.

Curious to know if others have also used this setting?

Has anyone using the service menu or some other ways managed to reduce/disable the Edge Enhancement and Dignal Noise Reduction that the Z4 apply to the original material?

I have found these processing can give interesting results when playing an upconverted DVD or a low/average HD source but if one plays a high quality HD content there is a great deal of details that is lost. In that last case it is annoying as the resolution is clearly less than 720p.

Basically, I am simply looking for a way to have a true 1 to 1 pxiel mapping with the Z4. I have tried to disable all the advanced options and played with sharpness settings without getting much success.

Thanks

The problem I find with setting the sharpness control to the way Avia tells you is the picture no longer looks sharp on -7 when playing DVD's. Whats your thoughts on this :confused: I was a projectionist for many years and having a sharp image is very important to me. SOFT focus is a nightmare :eek:

yeah, I don't like the sharpness all the way down to -7 either. I bought the Z4 because I liked its sharpness. On the Avia it doesn't show much EE below -4 with all the enhancement feature turned off. Oh, the "overscan" is off as well to ensure 1x1 mapping. On HDTV however, it does show some EE on some channels, but I guess it must be content depandent which is out of our control. With the test pattern on Avia showing absence of EE we should just sit back and enjoy the sharp pictures the Z4 offers.

yeah, I don't like the sharpness all the way down to -7 either. I bought the Z4 because I liked its sharpness. On the Avia it doesn't show much EE below -4 with all the enhancement feature turned off. Oh, the "overscan" is off as well to ensure 1x1 mapping. On HDTV however, it does show some EE on some channels, but I guess it must be content depandent which is out of our control. With the test pattern on Avia showing absence of EE we should just sit back and enjoy the sharp pictures the Z4 offers.

It should be obvious the problem is that you are using a calibration DVD that was not designed for todays projectors. Don't turn the sharpness down. You need to get Digital Essentials.

It should be obvious the problem is that you are using a calibration DVD that was not designed for todays projectors. Don't turn the sharpness down. You need to get Digital Essentials.
I also have DVE and it works exactly the same as my new Avia which is 1 week old. Plus most on here say to turn sharpness to -7

It should be obvious the problem is that you are using a calibration DVD that was not designed for todays projectors. Don't turn the sharpness down. You need to get Digital Essentials.
I don't have a DVE, but I am thinking about getting one. Now with DVE, do you think it indicates that you can set the sharpness at much higher setting than -4 without showing EE?

I keep sharpness at 0 and enjoy my super sharp picture.

Don't let calibration tools keep you from enjoying what your eyes like best.

Shelly

Guys,

I recently was forced to upgrade (hardware failure) and purchased the Z4 as a replacement. So far I find it to be an adequate replacement but have several issues that I would like to correct. The first priority is to improve the 1200:1 contrast ratio I have using ROne's setting with creative cinema (thanks ROne these look good but I crave more!). I am very interested to see what the results of AVS'ers are using a CC filter and one of the more "Dynamic" settings. This coupled with the tweaks ROne has published with the iris speed should make a huge difference. According to THIS (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cine4home.de%2FTuning%2FZ4%2FZ4 Tuning.htm&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools) review 6800:1 contrast levels may be achievable. Another member of this board and I have been talking about using ColorFacts on our recently purchased Z4's in the near future and I wanted to see what the consensus currently is on this approach. FYI I have experience with SMART calibration on 10HT and HS10 projectors and have found the results to be excellent in the past. In fact SMART worked so well with the 10HT sony started to include the CC filter with the HS10/20 projectors from the factory. For those unfamiliar with Steve's work here is a LINK (http://www.smartavtweaks.com/) to his page.

I'm interested in reading about the use of color correction filters as well. What I don't understand is how you connect the filter to the Z4 lens. It does not appear to be threaded. The Cine4Home article cited above appears to use a custom aluminum filter ring for their tuning. Obviously with the Z4 it would have to be thin enough to not obstruct the lens door.

I have not yet had a proper calibration (waiting until about 100 hours) and so have been using ROne's settings as a starting point. Blacks are merely 'meh' with no real detail at the lower end showing dark gray at best. This is using the Creative Cinema based settings. To get detail washes out the blacks entirely. Bright images look stunning and there is adequate contrast ratio to improve the perception of blacks being darker then they really are. But right now I'm finding it difficult to enjoy predominantly dark movies.

If I understand correctly one uses a CC filter in lieu of a projector's dynamic iris?

I have just bought a Z4 and a Panasonic S77 DVD player (really a Panasonic S688, which is the same with a Chinese remote).

What is the best source material to evaluate whether I should use the Z4 scaler (with 480p from the DVD player), or the DVD scaler (with 720p from the DVD player)? I have DVE and the HQV test disk, but don't really know what to look for. The DVD player is connected to the Z4 with HDMI.

I have read that the Z4 has a pretty good scaler, and so have been using 480p for now, but would like to make sure that I have chosen well before spending too much time tweaking...

I've had the tiniest attempt with a filter.

It did not yield brilliant results, mainly because I believe the ON/OFF contrast ratios of POWERFUL etc doesn't yield an improved picture. That said, maybe without automatic lamp iris you can get better CR, but I doubt it will be much as the lamp iris is the overwhelming booster of ON/OFF CR on the Z4.

Open to ideas though...

I've had the tiniest attempt with a filter.

It did not yield brilliant results, mainly because I believe the ON/OFF contrast ratios of POWERFUL etc doesn't yield an improved picture. That said, maybe without automatic lamp iris you can get better CR, but I doubt it will be much as the lamp iris is the overwhelming booster of ON/OFF CR on the Z4.

Open to ideas though...
What are your thoughts on the Cine4Home tuning where they established a significant CR using the CC?

What are your thoughts on the Cine4Home tuning where they established a significant CR using the CC?



Yea...
What he said! :)

It was my understanding that they got to 1450:1 without Iris, using DYNAMIC preset with filter?

If I have read it correctly - then I am not compelled to or have the time to bother improving my own presets (which yields 1350:1) albeit in LIVING with IRIS on.

As for the 6800:1 CR - no way for me I'm afraid, the lamp iris is completly ineffective on the high presets even with tweaks in place.

Unless someone can point me to a 2000:1 CR without using the auto lamp iris on POWERUL or DYNAMIC then I'm not fussed, in my own experience I've not got near this at all.

Don't forget some of these improvements in CR can be effected by using the different LAMP modes (LOW, A1, A2, POWERFUL.)

ROne,

Thanks for the response. I have been tweaking using the Living mode and the custom color correction feature. WOW what an excellent and very powerful tool! For those who have not tried it yet take a shot you will be amazed what a difference this makes.

Question for all...

I seem to get a little bit of red "solarization" effect on color gradations in very high contrast outdoor scenes. Although it appears rarely I was wondering if anyone else has seen this? I can correct this easily but at the cost of some contrast and black level.

I have just bought a Z4 and a Panasonic S77 DVD player (really a Panasonic S688, which is the same with a Chinese remote).

What is the best source material to evaluate whether I should use the Z4 scaler (with 480p from the DVD player), or the DVD scaler (with 720p from the DVD player)? I have DVE and the HQV test disk, but don't really know what to look for. The DVD player is connected to the Z4 with HDMI.

I have read that the Z4 has a pretty good scaler, and so have been using 480p for now, but would like to make sure that I have chosen well before spending too much time tweaking...

I had been using a 3 year old panny 480p over component to my Z4 and was curious if the 'upconverter' players actually did much, so i picked up a panny s77 and ran it over hdmi and was extremely hard pressed to see diff between my 480p player over component and s77 over hdmi. So, I took the s77 back and will put $ toward HD player later on since the 480p player / z4 combo was clearly already doing a fine job and not worth the $ for an upconvert player.

I had been using a 3 year old panny 480p over component to my Z4 and was curious if the 'upconverter' players actually did much, so i picked up a panny s77 and ran it over hdmi and was extremely hard pressed to see diff between my 480p player over component and s77 over hdmi. So, I took the s77 back and will put $ toward HD player later on since the 480p player / z4 combo was clearly already doing a fine job and not worth the $ for an upconvert player.

I bought mine because my DVB318 died. I find the panasonic a good player, and connected it with HDMI. There is no macroblocking.

With the quality of the Z4 scaler, I don't see any difference between upconverted and 480p from the player.

ROne,

Thanks for the response. I have been tweaking using the Living mode and the custom color correction feature. WOW what an excellent and very powerful tool! For those who have not tried it yet take a shot you will be amazed what a difference this makes.


Looking through the manual, I don't see how we can easily share changes made in using color correction. Have you figured out a way?

[QUOTE=Chuck Coughlin]custom color correction feature. WOW what an excellent and very powerful tool!QUOTE]
Have you figure out if the controls are equivalent to saturation and hue, respectively? What the hell is phase?

On a semi-related note I noticed a really weird color shift last night while watching Wedding Crashers. In moderately light or evening seens it looked great. But on daylight outdoor scenes (ex. the Cleary wedding) it took on somewhat of a greenish/yellow cast. Presumably the grayscale is getting thrown way off at the higher APLs. I was using ROne's Creative Cinema setting, untweaked. Not having immediate access to a Spyder or the like suggestions for what I might bump to experiment with fixing that shift?

Hi

first of all: happy new year (even if I'm a bit late - this is my first post this year)!

I tried to catch up with the thread and discovered a few posts about convergence. It seems to me, that one party says: this is not adjustable in any menue, since this is a mounting issue and thus not tweakable.
Others seem to say: yes, you have to go into the factory menue and adjust it there.

So: where and how can I shift/position R G B on the screen. My blue is a bit left of the other colors, so I'd like to shift blue a bit to the right and 1 pixel up and I would be fine....
Possible or not?

Thanks!
DVDR

It is possible on a Z2 because I have done it. Early in this thread I copied some old post that described the process I used. I just received my own Z4 last night so I have not followed up on the shift parameters in the Z4. If you could find me a Z2 service manual I could identify the field names and cross reference them with the Z4 service manual that I have and test. It is worth doing as it made a BIG difference in sharpness. It was like cleaning the windows! ;)

Out of the box it is stunning in comparison to my Z2. Colors are off but the projector has such POP!

[QUOTE=Chuck Coughlin]custom color correction feature. WOW what an excellent and very powerful tool!QUOTE]
Have you figure out if the controls are equivalent to saturation and hue, respectively? What the hell is phase?

On a semi-related note I noticed a really weird color shift last night while watching Wedding Crashers. In moderately light or evening seens it looked great. But on daylight outdoor scenes (ex. the Cleary wedding) it took on somewhat of a greenish/yellow cast. Presumably the grayscale is getting thrown way off at the higher APLs. I was using ROne's Creative Cinema setting, untweaked. Not having immediate access to a Spyder or the like suggestions for what I might bump to experiment with fixing that shift?


I believe the phase is simular in function as hue. I sound like a drug dealer here but "just try it" you cannot break anything. Just delete the correction and start over.

Come on all the cool kids are doing it! :)

I watched the dvd, Red Eye, last night.

It was visually stunning. Blacks, shadow detail, skin tones and colors were just perfectly there for me. And the detail and sharpness on the face and eye closeups was remarkable. The Z4 at its best!

Interesting movie as well. Just thought that I would pass this on.

Shelly

Can I make a factory reset on the Z4 and then all settings revert to "direct from the factory"? I know my user settings will go, but if I can get rid of that white Sanyo text logo in my corners, it would be worth it!

Yes it's in the settings menu I believe. I just did that the other day.

Hi erverybody,

I´m new to the forum, great forum I must say,


Question to Rone, how do you use the Spider wit a Beamer, I thougt it just works
with a monitor ????


Thanks

I've had the tiniest attempt with a filter.

It did not yield brilliant results, mainly because I believe the ON/OFF contrast ratios of POWERFUL etc doesn't yield an improved picture. That said, maybe without automatic lamp iris you can get better CR, but I doubt it will be much as the lamp iris is the overwhelming booster of ON/OFF CR on the Z4.

Open to ideas though...


ROne,

I know you did not like the results with a filter but I am interested in trying it. Can can you give me some info on what filter you used? And maybe where you got it?

ROne,

I know you did not like the results with a filter but I am interested in trying it. Can can you give me some info on what filter you used? And maybe where you got it?
I'm still interested in how you would even attach a standard photo filter - as best I can tell the Z4's lens is not threaded.

Hi erverybody,

I´m new to the forum, great forum I must say,


Question to Rone, how do you use the Spider wit a Beamer, I thougt it just works
with a monitor ????


Thanks

Spyder2pro works fine with projector.

See the massive spyderTV review thread!

I'm still interested in how you would even attach a standard photo filter - as best I can tell the Z4's lens is not threaded.

For the test I cut and taped a CC30R/CC20R beyond the doorway and onto the hood of the lens.

Not perfect but good enough for testing.

There may be many other possible filters to try, but the CC30R was good for the Z3.

DVDR

It is possible on a Z2 because I have done it. Early in this thread I copied some old post that described the process I used. I just received my own Z4 last night so I have not followed up on the shift parameters in the Z4. If you could find me a Z2 service manual I could identify the field names and cross reference them with the Z4 service manual that I have and test. It is worth doing as it made a BIG difference in sharpness. It was like cleaning the windows! ;)

Hi, I found two service manuals - on in zip and one in rar-format.

The zipped file only is part of the manual - I could attach it to this post

The rar-file I could not open since I don't have an un-rar-program. But the file is much larger (too large to be attached in the forum). If the zip-file does not containt the values you need, try this link to download the rar-file:

http://www.students.uni-mainz.de/~sprec000/Z2/Service%20Manual_Sanyo-PLV-Z2.rar

Looking forward to your findings!

I watched the dvd, Red Eye, last night.

It was visually stunning. Blacks, shadow detail, skin tones and colors were just perfectly there for me. And the detail and sharpness on the face and eye closeups was remarkable. The Z4 at its best!

Interesting movie as well. Just thought that I would pass this on.

Shelly

Thanks for the recommendation! I saw it too! must say it was wonderful on the z4; I'll upload some closeups tonight

DVDR, Great work but sorry no cigar. Both files are service menu charts and we need the factory menu list. :(

PS I too need to adjust my blue pixals one right and one up. Oddly the problem seems to be worse on the right hand side of the screen...

DVDR,
Looks like I may have sent you on a wild goose chase as the Z4 service manual does not have the factory setup information ether. I will fire up my Z2 and see if there is any nomenclature on the referenced areas that I can translate to the Z4. I hope that the factory menu is accessible on the Z4 is the same as the Z2.

I will post my findings.

Has anyone calibrated this with the Oppo yet? I tried ROne's settings but they didn't work for me.

I have a Z4 from Japan and no English Manual. Ive tried a search on here but cant find where to download the English version. Any help please guys?

I have a Z4 from Japan and no English Manual. Ive tried a search on here but cant find where to download the English version. Any help please guys?

2 second google search found this:

http://www.audiogeneral.com/Sanyo/PLV-Z4_OM.pdf

PS I too need to adjust my blue pixals one right and one up. Oddly the problem seems to be worse on the right hand side of the screen...

My blue is out about the same as yours. I called Sanyo Canada tech a month or so ago and they said its a manual board adjustment, can't be done from service menu. Also, 1 pix out is not defective, takes about 4 pix out.

If anyone knows otherwise about being able to adjust thru service menu I'd like to hear.

I finally got around to trying the PC input on the Z4 last night and just couldn't get 'er going.

Laptop VGA out -> Z4 VGA in (no digital connector converters, etc).

I tried many combos of rez and hz out from the PC, just couldnt get er going. Once in a while i saw something, but it was extremely noisy and only part of what was displayed on pc.

Any tips ?

Well, when we did the Z3, Jeremy Anderson has been happy with my settings over his component connection, so I imagine they may work out.

I might actually try a component source if I get chance and report back.
We are waiting to hear your feedback using component

It looks like they have changed the "menu" selection keys for service and factory menus on the Z4 (Z3 also). Does anyone know what the new key combo for the Factory menu is? Maybe they are the same as the Z3?

Thanks Gary

I finally got around to trying the PC input on the Z4 last night and just couldn't get 'er going.

Laptop VGA out -> Z4 VGA in (no digital connector converters, etc).

I tried many combos of rez and hz out from the PC, just couldnt get er going. Once in a while i saw something, but it was extremely noisy and only part of what was displayed on pc.

Any tips ?

Did you try 800x600 (60Hz), 1280x768 (the projector "shrinks" this res). I have a Mac Mini which I had set to the above two resolutions and they worked - right now I am doing 720p (1280x720 H-sync freq 47.8KHz V-Sync freq 63.7 Hz from information shown in Z4 menu). One thing though you need to go into Menu -> Picture adj. and reduce Overscan/Horizontal/Vertical/Fine sync/etc to get the desktop to show up correctly.

I had tried to connect a pc laptop early on and that worked to (I don't recall the setting though something like 1280x768 again).

Also look at http://www.audiogeneral.com/Sanyo/PLV-Z4_OM.pdf (page 52) for add'l resolution info.

We are waiting to hear your feedback using component

I know - time is a huge problem for me at the moment.

I promise I will do something as soon as I can.

Not even looked at the projector for three weeks!

Just received the Z4 yesterday and still have a 900 that is being returned. I had about an hour to play with it and hope to try it out a little more this morning. Intial thoughts when compared to the 900 is that many say the picture is slightly sharper on the Z4 than the 900 but I think it makes a huge difference when watching a movie. The 900's picture is definetly smoother without the sde but it just looked soft when compared to the Z4. I prefered the sharper picture immediately. I still think that by slightly defocusing the Z4 you can achieve about what the 900 looks like but haven't tried it yet. The Z4 definetly has a lot more that can be tweaked. Love the auto closing lens door but wish the heat exhaust was out the front like the 900 due to my placement. Standard def TV was pittiful as expecteted. I am using a HD cable box with component out. Is there a way to improve the picture for SD TV without interfereing with the HD stuff that looks great? I do have a couple bugs to work out. I noticed that it was cutting the bottom off on some TV shows like when I watched sports or the news and there are graphics at the bottom. What do I need to do to correct this? Also, I was reading about the lamp hours and how to reset it to 0 when replacing a lamp. if one were to reset the lamp hours back to zero without relacing the lamp, is there any way for someone to know this has been done? Just curious since so many return policies are dependent upon low lamp hours.

Just received the Z4 yesterday and still have a 900 that is being returned. I had about an hour to play with it and hope to try it out a little more this morning. Intial thoughts when compared to the 900 is that many say the picture is slightly sharper on the Z4 than the 900 but I think it makes a huge difference when watching a movie. The 900's picture is definetly smoother without the sde but it just looked soft when compared to the Z4. I prefered the sharper picture immediately. I still think that by slightly defocusing the Z4 you can achieve about what the 900 looks like but haven't tried it yet. The Z4 definetly has a lot more that can be tweaked. Love the auto closing lens door but wish the heat exhaust was out the front like the 900 due to my placement. Standard def TV was pittiful as expecteted. I am using a HD cable box with component out. Is there a way to improve the picture for SD TV without interfereing with the HD stuff that looks great? I do have a couple bugs to work out. I noticed that it was cutting the bottom off on some TV shows like when I watched sports or the news and there are graphics at the bottom. What do I need to do to correct this? Also, I was reading about the lamp hours and how to reset it to 0 when replacing a lamp. if one were to reset the lamp hours back to zero without relacing the lamp, is there any way for someone to know this has been done? Just curious since so many return policies are dependent upon low lamp hours.

The service menu will show the actual used hours on the chassis.

FYI page 54 of the service manual has the instructions how to enter the service mode. I do not have a link but it was in a thread on AVS not to long ago.

I still think that by slightly defocusing the Z4 you can achieve about what the 900 looks like but haven't tried it yet.

Yep, I did just this. My couch for my platform hasn't come yet, so I'm sitting on another couch that is slightly closer than I'd like. SDE could be seen but wasn't horrible. From 1 foot back, it's unnoticable! Too bad my platform isn't a foot shorter! :) Anyway, it only took a TINY nudge on the focus ring & SDE was about 90% gone! I did a comparison as well & sharpness is not even noticably affected! It works. I'm guessing the Z4 doesn't take as big of a sharpness hit when doing this, as does the Panny with the Smoothscreen technology.

Standard def TV was pittiful as expecteted. I am using a HD cable box with component out. Is there a way to improve the picture for SD TV without interfereing with the HD stuff that looks great?

I accomplished this by not letting my cable box send out 480i. When it was sending 480i out for SD material, it looked beyond horrid. I set it to 720p only. That way, it's my STB that is doing all the converting & Z4 is simply displaying what it gets. The decoder is the issue with the SD on Z4 so this by-passes it. Depending on the channel, it still looks fairly bad, but that's to be expected when blowing up an already terrible source to 106"! Garbage in, garbage out. I doubt there is really a way to make it too much better than that.

I accomplished this by not letting my cable box send out 480i. When it was sending 480i out for SD material, it looked beyond horrid. I set it to 720p only. That way, it's my STB that is doing all the converting & Z4 is simply displaying what it gets. The decoder is the issue with the SD on Z4 so this by-passes it. Depending on the channel, it still looks fairly bad, but that's to be expected when blowing up an already terrible source to 106"! Garbage in, garbage out. I doubt there is really a way to make it too much better than that.

How do you set the cable box to only output 720p?

How do you set the cable box to only output 720p?

Well, in the Scientific Atlanta 8300HD box that I have, there is a wizard that you can run by hitting the info and guide button when it's off. It then walked me through every single resolution it can do and you can turn each one off or on. I just turned off every resolution except 720p widescreen. For the motorola box that Comcast uses (not sure if that's what you have) I believe there is a setting called 4x3 override. If you turn this 'off', I'm guessing that it will then output the 4x3 at the resolution that is set to the Y Pb Pr / DVI setting which you should set to 720p. If that doesn't work for some reason (I'm guessing it will), then you can set the 4x3 override to 480p instead of 480i & then see how the Z4 handles the 480p which should be considerably better than how it handles 480i.

Thanks, it was as simple as hitting the seettings button on the remote and going into advanced settings and turnig off everything except 720P. It now looks as good as the 900, which isn't great but better than before.

I know - time is a huge problem for me at the moment.

I promise I will do something as soon as I can.

Not even looked at the projector for three weeks!

Thanks Rone, we'll wait eagerly

R0ne's tweaks are now available in a more organized WWW format. I'd like to make this page a great resource for Z4-er's so if there is something i should add, please contact me.

http://www.celioentertainment.com/z4.php

You've done a really nice layout there. Cheers.

ROne, in your calibration guide you mentioned that if the AUTO Iris was turned off then the contrast would be half which would be roughly only 650. That is a lot worse than 1300 you managed to achieve on Z3 which did not have a AUTO Iris and had a even lower ANSI contrast. How can this be? or Z4 's contrast of 1300 is far from its potential?

Also in plugging your setting into my setup, if I set the HDMI on L1 and then recalibrate the Black and White level(which I found to be a lot!) using AVIA by changing B/C as instrusted on the DVD, would the final results still track D65 and have good deltaE as your calibration? In theory it seems that should work.

Another thing I am wondering about is that, when I checked the Color/Tint on AVIA, the tint seemed dead on but the color seemed under saturated. But when I checked the three color bars I noticed that the dreaded red push was indeed zero which was great, but the blue according to the color bar was way underrepresented. Was that a compromise you made to eliminate the red push or I messed up the setting by changing too much B/C in doing the BW needle patterns?
Thanks a lot for helping me to understand that.

ROne, in your calibration guide you mentioned that if the AUTO Iris was turned off then the contrast would be half which would be roughly only 650. That is a lot worse than 1300 you managed to achieve on Z3 which did not have a AUTO Iris and had a even lower ANSI contrast. How can this be? or Z4 's contrast of 1300 is far from its potential?

Also in plugging your setting into my setup, if I set the HDMI on L1 and then recalibrate the Black and White level(which I found to be a lot!) using AVIA by changing B/C as instrusted on the DVD, would the final results still track D65 and have good deltaE as your calibration? In theory it seems that should work.

Another thing I am wondering about is that, when I checked the Color/Tint on AVIA, the tint seemed dead on but the color seemed under saturated. But when I checked the three color bars I noticed that the dreaded red push was indeed zero which was great, but the blue according to the color bar was way underrepresented. Was that a compromise you made to eliminate the red push or I messed up the setting by changing too much B/C in doing the BW needle patterns?
Thanks a lot for helping me to understand that.

It's true about the halfing contrast of on/off. What that doesn't tell you is the complete story though and that is that the ANSI contrast is superior.

It won't track D65 if you do what you suggest, it may be close and some people seem to argue it would be the same but I am not convinced due to what I have recorded and what you can see when you change to L1. It may however, be close enough.

You are correct about the lack of BLUE in the decoder, that was my findings. Well I have to hold my hand up, I did the saturation by eye, I couldn't find a decent way of addressing this problem that both satisfied the chart and my eye. So I went for the Eye method of doing saturation. See the colour management tips for making adjusments to this.

thanks a lot, ROne, for explaining. by my eye the pictures look fantastic with your settings after I adjusted just the B/C according to AVIA. obviously without SpyderTv or AviaPro I have no way of verifying the D65 and so forth. What it looks good is all it matters. I was at a movie theater this weekend and noticed that the color blue in MT was a bit more vibrant than my Z4. I was attempted to raise the offset on the blue but was afraid to mess up the tint and other balances. do you think I can play with that setting without worrying about throwing everything out of balance?

thanks a lot, ROne, for explaining. by my eye the pictures look fantastic with your settings after I adjusted just the B/C according to AVIA. obviously without SpyderTv or AviaPro I have no way of verifying the D65 and so forth. What it looks good is all it matters. I was at a movie theater this weekend and noticed that the color blue in MT was a bit more vibrant than my Z4. I was attempted to raise the offset on the blue but was afraid to mess up the tint and other balances. do you think I can play with that setting without worrying about throwing everything out of balance?

When you gett to a point in a dvd wherre you want a deeper (or different) blue, just freeze the frame and go into the color management in the menu.

Move the cursor to the blue area, click and you can intensify and change the blue. Remeber to save the change into whatever User settting you want.

There is no need to have any under or over saturated colors with the Color Management feature.

Shelly

thanks, shelly, I will give it a try tonight. BTW, what settings have you noticed being changed by CM after you tweaked on a certain color in CM?

thanks, shelly, I will give it a try tonight. BTW, what settings have you noticed being changed by CM after you tweaked on a certain color in CM?

None of the numerical measurements change when you use the color management.

You will not see any increase/decrease in the RGB numbers in the regular or in the advanced menu settings.

It's just magic!

Shelly

i just received my oppo today. it is connected via dvi to my z4. when i do a deinterlace test withe the finzel dvd I got a little bit of flickering in the windows with 720p. with 576p it's just fine. any explainations? best performance should be at 720p, shouldn't it?

hi, i just bought the Z4 (its on its way). i want to get the correct cables at monoprice but im unsure what to get for best PQ...from reading this thread, do i get component or HDMI? which is better? i probably will need both anyway because i want to hook up my HTPC and my digital cable box but i dont know if there is an advantage to either..(i could also do normal vga from my HTPC)...

i just received my oppo today. it is connected via dvi to my z4. when i do a deinterlace test withe the finzel dvd I got a little bit of flickering in the windows with 720p. with 576p it's just fine. any explainations? best performance should be at 720p, shouldn't it?

Do a search in the main Z4 thread about 'flickering' or 'sync' issues. This could be your problem.

Hey- new here. I've had a z4 for a little while and not messed with it, but upon reading this thread tried to input Rone's settings and store them. Both look better than out-of-the-box by far...

Question: under "lamp iris" he lists "auto" but on my menu there is a choise of "A1" and A2"

What is the difference here? I'm I even in the right place??

Thanks for any help in advance...

Mark

if you read ROne's guide he explains the A1, A2, full and Eco settings for the lamp. But Auto Iris is under the advance menu. it controls the mount of light going into the LCD panel after the lamp.

Cool- thank you

M

Sorry to be such a pain, infantile, in the dark :), uninitiated, etc, but... I have read back though the post and I am still confused by L-1 and L-2. Is it correct that if you are running a video source you should be on L-1 and on L-2 with a PC source? Is there some limiting of the image that doesn't match up with the output on L-2 if your are running video? Since Rone did his/your testing on L-2 does anything need to be adjusted to account for the narrower band?

I'll do my homework and catch up with the class, I promise! Just don't make me repeat the third grade again. I'm 38 for Gods sake...

M

Sorry to be such a pain, infantile, in the dark :), uninitiated, etc, but... I have read back though the post and I am still confused by L-1 and L-2. Is it correct that if you are running a video source you should be on L-1 and on L-2 with a PC source? Is there some limiting of the image that doesn't match up with the output on L-2 if your are running video? Since Rone did his/your testing on L-2 does anything need to be adjusted to account for the narrower band?

I'll do my homework and catch up with the class, I promise! Just don't make me repeat the third grade again. I'm 38 for Gods sake...

M

No problem at all. Yes, you have it right about L1/L2. The best thing for you to do now, is do a search in this thread where you will find many posts on this subject, explaining the difference between L1/L2, when to use them, & how to compensate with ROne's settings which are really based on L2 PC output. Do a search on 'studio' and you'll also find lots of information. It was explained in detail what L1 and L2 do to black & white color and how to tweak to adjust. ROne's settings look 'ok' when you switch to L1 (which you need to for stand-alone DVD and STB to look acceptable), however, they aren't perfect and need to be adjusted to account for the difference in white & black values between L1 and L2. ROne does GREAT work for us here so we really appreciate everything he does. Hopefully he will give us more settings which will use L1 DVI & componant but that will come when he has time.

I'm positive you'll find what you need by searching on the word 'studio' or L2.

hi, i just bought the Z4 (its on its way). i want to get the correct cables at monoprice but im unsure what to get for best PQ...from reading this thread, do i get component or HDMI? which is better? i probably will need both anyway because i want to hook up my HTPC and my digital cable box but i dont know if there is an advantage to either..(i could also do normal vga from my HTPC)...


Buy them both and figure out which is better... the cables couldn't be any cheaper on there. That's what I would suggest. It's going to come down to personal preference

Rone,

your settings are for the HDMI output, are these optimised for the component input as well (i am guessing no) and if not does anyone have optimised settings for that?

Rone,

your settings are for the HDMI output, are these optimised for the component input as well (i am guessing no) and if not does anyone have optimised settings for that?

No they aren't for component and nobody has them optimised for component. There are several suggestions through out the thread about how to compensate (ie L1 instead of L2, bump gama, contrast, etc...), but nobody has posted any definative settings for L1 HDMI or Componant.

while I wait to hear back regarding the blue spot on my projector...I'm still running it (cuz I can't seem to stop watching it). I used Rone's settings on hdmi through my dvd player and used L1. It seemed pretty good...but a little yellowish. I switched to L2 and dropped the iris further down as well as a couple of other changes and it looks better. I'm currently using the same settings on component and it looks just as good.

CLK's for component are very good

what is the DVD player with scaling at 720p/1080i through HDMI that i should buy for my future VPR (a Sanyo Z4) with a budget of 320 bucks?....some suggestions?

thanks

Simon

what is the DVD player with scaling at 720p/1080i through HDMI that i should buy for my future VPR (a Sanyo Z4) with a budget of 320 bucks?....some suggestions?

thanks

Simon

Seems Oppo is the hands down champ at this point at only $199.

Hey guys, it seems like quite a few people are interested in the Sanyo Z4 vs Panasonic PE900 vs Epson 550 is anyone in the local LA area interested in coming into TVA Santa Monica to see these projectors in a A B C situation? This Saturday (Superbowl Saturday) we will be hosting an in store event showcasing these three projectors and some good stuff to drool over. Thanks Guys!

I am a novice in this field and have been following this thread closely.

Could someone please explain what IRE is? What kind of impact does the red color misbehaving from 80-100 IRE have on the picture?

Having read that Panny ae900 tracks D65 pretty closely, does it make sense to go with that PJ?

Please enlighten.

I am a novice in this field and have been following this thread closely.

Having read that Panny ae900 tracks D65 pretty closely, does it make sense to go with that PJ?

Please enlighten.

It's hard to say what's important to you. If you want better color out of the box with no tweaking...yes, the AE900 is better in that regard. If you want a sharper picture & 3 year warranty & free lamp and lots of tweaking possibilities to match the D65 & contrast of the AE900...get the Z4. Obviously everyone here chose the Z4 so the areas where the Z4 excels was more important. It's all personal preferences I guess as to what you want out of it.

Dweezilz:

Thanks for your response.

I did not know what 80-100 IRE represented. My question was more like:
- Does the picture get more red in certain types of scenes? If so, what would those scenes be?
- Or, does the picture overall is more red than it should be?

I have read about the sharpness difference between ae900 and Z4. However, I have also read that you would know that the ae900 picture was less sharp, unless you compared it with Z4 side-by-side.

Thanks again.

Dweezilz:

Thanks for your response.

I did not know what 80-100 IRE represented. My question was more like:
- Does the picture get more red in certain types of scenes? If so, what would those scenes be?
- Or, does the picture overall is more red than it should be?

I have read about the sharpness difference between ae900 and Z4. However, I have also read that you would know that the ae900 picture was less sharp, unless you compared it with Z4 side-by-side.

Thanks again.

I'm probably not the best person to explain IRE...I'll leave that for someone else who knows the techncial details better. What I will say is that what you said about the side-by-side is also something that is probably no different for the contrast & color between the two units. Unless you saw them side by side, you'd be hard pressed to tell that one was significantly closer to D65 or that one is any brighter. I'm sure 'someone' can tell, but for the vast majority, unless you had some IFS toys like ROne has, you'd be hard pressed to see it. The color tweaking tool in the Z4 is so darn good, that even a novice can change any color on any part of the screen that is displeasing to your eyes. To me, it's a non-factor to be honest. It lets you change the color decoder and save to presets so that particular color decodes each time just the way you set it. There is a cursor, you aim on a point using any image on the screen, & poof, you can change how that color will always look. Extremely cool stuff and only the Z4 has it as far as I know.

Dweezilz:

Thanks for your response.

I did not know what 80-100 IRE represented. My question was more like:
- Does the picture get more red in certain types of scenes? If so, what would those scenes be?
- Or, does the picture overall is more red than it should be?

I have read about the sharpness difference between ae900 and Z4. However, I have also read that you would know that the ae900 picture was less sharp, unless you compared it with Z4 side-by-side.

Thanks again.
you can read the article http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6330772&&#post6330772
on the detailed explanation on IRE.

I just ordered my z4. i have been looking throught the thread--any suggestions on tweaking for hd cable or dvd? is ROone suggested tweaking ok for this(living or cinema?). im using an hdmi cable from my comcast cable box--any suggestions would be appreciated

Hi ROne and anyone else using DVI/HDMI from your Home Theater PC. After a month with the Z4 and stand-alone DVD (which is awesome!), I finally setup my HTPC and attached to the Z4 via DVI to HDMI. Everything works fine except for one thing. When I put up the Nokia test pattern for Moire, I obviously don't have 1:1 pixel mapping which is to be expected from what I've been told. The test patterns have vertical lines instead of smooth evenly spaced pixels. I played a movie & it looked ok, but I know it's not 1:1 which is needed. So, I went to the Z4 menu to adjust as recomended here on AVS on the HTPC Calibration thread. However, in the picture adjust menu, the options for dots & fine sync are grayed out & I can not adjust to get pixel perfect 1:1. When I switch to componant in, these are available, but not via HDMI. What am I doing wrong here? Is there a setting on my PC that is causing this? I really want to adjust to 1:1 or PC via DVI is worthless compared to my DVB318 player.

Thanks for any help you guys can give me!!

(here's a picture of what it looks like without adjustment. This is normal, but I can't adjust it like I should be able to)
(2nd picture is what you want it to look like)

Problem solved. It seems that with DVI/HDMI, those settings are intended to auto match for 1:1 so that's why the menu is grayed out. My issue was that I had overscan set to 10 still by accident thus 1:1 wasn't happening. I was concentrating so much on those total dots & fine sync settings that once I did 0 overscan, I never went back to test the patterns!! It's perfect now with no adjustments necessary. I guess you only have to adjust if going via VGA!

I'm happy again. :D

a quick question on overscan, have you noticed any difference in PQ between 0 and 10? In theory 0 should be sharper than 10, but I haven't seen any difference. if you are watching a lot of HDTV the issue becomes quite important because some stations have scanlines on top if you set overscan to 0. So to achieve 1 to 1 mapping and not have the ugly artifacts at the same time you have to zoom in to let a few inches viewable image spill onto the velvet cloth. I really want to have the whole picture Z4 offers but am concerned about possible blurriness if I set overscan to greater than 0. Anybody care to offer some thought and comment?

a quick question on overscan, have you noticed any difference in PQ between 0 and 10? In theory 0 should be sharper than 10, but I haven't seen any difference. if you are watching a lot of HDTV the issue becomes quite important because some stations have scanlines on top if you set overscan to 0. So to achieve 1 to 1 mapping and not have the ugly artifacts at the same time you have to zoom in to let a few inches viewable image spill onto the velvet cloth. I really want to have the whole picture Z4 offers but am concerned about possible blurriness if I set overscan to greater than 0. Anybody care to offer some thought and comment?

I leave the Z4's overscan at zero and control everything from an iScan HD+. I think it's at 2 or 3 to get rid of the broadcast noise and there's no perceptible difference in image quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AYAMY
what is the DVD player with scaling at 720p/1080i through HDMI that i should buy for my future VPR (a Sanyo Z4) with a budget of 320 bucks?....some suggestions?

thanks

Simon



Seems Oppo is the hands down champ at this point at only $199.

and what about the panasonic S97?

I would buy this dvd player......

Quote:
Originally Posted by AYAMY
what is the DVD player with scaling at 720p/1080i through HDMI that i should buy for my future VPR (a Sanyo Z4) with a budget of 320 bucks?....some suggestions?

thanks

Simon



Seems Oppo is the hands down champ at this point at only $199.

and what about the panasonic S97?

I would buy this dvd player......

Yep, that is a nice player...but at $60-$100 more & given the slightly lower test results than the Oppo (see DVD Benchmark website), it might not be the best bargain of the two. In real world applicaiton, it's hard to say you'd notice the difference, but why spend the extra money? Both are considered one of the best at their respective price points, but I'd go for cheaper & similar if not better testing results.

Yep, that is a nice player...but at $60-$100 more & given the slightly lower test results than the Oppo (see DVD Benchmark website), it might not be the best bargain of the two. In real world applicaiton, it's hard to say you'd notice the difference, but why spend the extra money? Both are considered one of the best at their respective price points, but I'd go for cheaper & similar if not better testing results.


I would also recommend the Panny S77S. I have this paired with the Z4, 33' HDMI cable and 4 port HDMI swithcer from monoprice and could not be happier. The reason I chose the panny over the oppo is the HDMI output rather than oppo's DVI output.

I would also recommend the Panny S77S. I have this paired with the Z4, 33' HDMI cable and 4 port HDMI swithcer from monoprice and could not be happier. The reason I chose the panny over the oppo is the HDMI output rather than oppo's DVI output.

I thought about that to (hdmi) and all the oppo folks seem real happy on their purchase. I researched and researched and bought the oppo. I have a 50' HDMI cable through my walls and was worried about the DVI connection. Oppo supplies a DVI/HDMI adapter that works great.
I'm very happy with the oppo and my Z4.

I'm very happy with the oppo and my Z4.

Anam8tr I have z4 too and i need to buy a dvd player. I'm thinking about oppo but there is the matter that it doesn't couple 50 hz with many tv/vpr playing PAL dvd.

Can you or somebody try z4+oppo with PAL dvd and test if the oppo couple 720p/50h and not obligatorily 60hz? For example some friends have problems with panasonic ptae900+oppo with PAL dvd because it couple only 720p/60hz with a consequent not fluid image.

Hi,ROne
i've read the whole thread and many thank you about your work
i just want to ask one question
how is your STANDARD for tuning the Z4?and how did you get your D65 proved?
with some hardware device or just with your own eyes?

and another question
have any one checked your Lamp in Z4?i heard it should be one UHP
but in my Z4,it's one UMP
is this correct?or...what happened to my Z4?

Anam8tr I have z4 too and i need to buy a dvd player. I'm thinking about oppo but there is the matter that it doesn't couple 50 hz with many tv/vpr playing PAL dvd.

Can you or somebody try z4+oppo with PAL dvd and test if the oppo couple 720p/50h and not obligatorily 60hz? For example some friends have problems with panasonic ptae900+oppo with PAL dvd because it couple only 720p/60hz with a consequent not fluid image.

i have the Z4 and the oppo (that is i have the BBK branded oppo).
i have no absolutely no problems concerning 50Hz PAL with this combo.

Anam8tr I have z4 too and i need to buy a dvd player. I'm thinking about oppo but there is the matter that it doesn't couple 50 hz with many tv/vpr playing PAL dvd.

Can you or somebody try z4+oppo with PAL dvd and test if the oppo couple 720p/50h and not obligatorily 60hz? For example some friends have problems with panasonic ptae900+oppo with PAL dvd because it couple only 720p/60hz with a consequent not fluid image.

Unfortunately I don't have any pal disks, but it looks like UTILITY has it working.

Hi,ROne
i've read the whole thread and many thank you about your work
i just want to ask one question
how is your STANDARD for tuning the Z4?and how did you get your D65 proved?
with some hardware device or just with your own eyes?

Equipment I used is spyder2Pro, a smart light meter, calibration discs and reference broadcast monitor.

Hi, ROne, welcome back! :) We all miss you!!

I did what you suggested for the color decoders with CM. The amazing thing was CM changed none of the settings while it could drastically alter the color decoders. All I had to do was bringing up the three color decoder bars and aiming the crosshair at the certain color bar to make any under or over satuations go away. This is really magic stuff.

You are correct about the lack of BLUE in the decoder, that was my findings. Well I have to hold my hand up, I did the saturation by eye, I couldn't find a decent way of addressing this problem that both satisfied the chart and my eye. So I went for the Eye method of doing saturation. See the colour management tips for making adjusments to this.

Now my question is: can you fix the lack of Blue with CM this way? and if you can then is your measurement likely to confirm all the calibrations in charts still hold? and how about using CM to fix that annoying red bump at 80IRE or using a CC filter to bring up some red at 100IRE in that D65 line?
Jim

jzdugolf ... colour management fixes saturation/decoder issues, not the mix of white (ie. greyscale or colour balance.)

My Z4 displays a clear red/pink tint on the left half of the image and a colder hue on the right side. In other words, the projector cannot even display a pure white background correctly!

After playing with the settings extensively with no luck, I sent the unit for repair. An engineer at the service center called to tell me that this is normal for Z4s and there was nothing he could do. A few days later I got the projector back with a note saying no porblems found.

Anyway, I am just wondering if any of the service menu settings can adress this problem? Any suggetions would be greatly appreciated!!

BTW, the Z4 is conennected to a HTPC/ATI9800SE via the VGA port.

-Ciel

On page 32 of the service manual it refers to this:
"If you find color shading, Please adjust the white uniformity by using the proper computer and 'Color Shading Correction" software supplied separately. The software can be ordered as follows; COLOR SHADING CORRECTION Services Parts No. 645 075 9611"

I think this may be your only possible solution short of returning the unit. This was one of my biggest fears when I ordered the unit myself.

ciel, unfortunately, this is a common problem among LCD projectors, and the extend of that varies among units. I was told by my dealer that 50% of Z4s could exhibit that. The color un-uniformity shows up most abvious when you project a uniform white image across the screen or pay attention to white subtitles across the screen.

believe it or not my Z4 has the same issue. I sometimes would lose sleep over this, because if you know it's there you notice it all the time. and I still have NOT decided to send mine in for repair because they will probably tell me it is well within specs.

The cause for such color un-uniformity is that the prism block has manufacturing defect or is not perfectly aligned with the LCD panels. Short of replacing the expensive part and reassembling the unit there is not much Sanyo can do to correct that problem. Given Sanyo's return and exchange policy I am not surprised they didn't honor that part of the warranty by fixing this common problem.

since it turns out I don't really need the fan speed adjustment the sanyo engineer had me do in the service menu I just want to make sure I set it back correctly. We started out at Group =0, No=0, and data=0. For those that have the service manual...does that make sense as far as fan speed? Or do I need a particular group number to get back into the fan section of the service manual. I can't believe this happened to me. Maybe I'll call them back and tell them I'm living at sea level now. I really don't need an elevated fan setting for Albuquerque. Any help, please.

On page 32 of the service manual it refers to this:
"If you find color shading, Please adjust the white uniformity by using the proper computer and 'Color Shading Correction" software supplied separately. The software can be ordered as follows; COLOR SHADING CORRECTION Services Parts No. 645 075 9611"

I think this may be your only possible solution short of returning the unit. This was one of my biggest fears when I ordered the unit myself.

chuck, where do you get a hold of the service manual for Z4? should the Sanyo service engineers do that for you if the Z4 is under warranty or the customer is supposed to do it himself to fix the problem?
Thanks.

A while back in this thread it was posted. I checked the link recently and it was dead. If you have the ability to receive large files I would be happy to send it to you.

Chuck, thanks for the info. This is very encouraging indeed -- I was hoping the problem is more software related rather than hardware. Just sent you a PM regarding the service manual.

On page 32 of the service manual it refers to this:
"If you find color shading, Please adjust the white uniformity by using the proper computer and 'Color Shading Correction" software supplied separately. The software can be ordered as follows; COLOR SHADING CORRECTION Services Parts No. 645 075 9611"

I think this may be your only possible solution short of returning the unit. This was one of my biggest fears when I ordered the unit myself.

Guys,

The service manual is 15Mb. I have sent it out to several people but it has bounced back due to size limitations on the receiving end. If someone wants to host this I would be glad to upload it.

Chuck... my email is 25mb limit... it shouldn't have bounced.

I'll send you my ftp info so you can upload it there.

For those interested.


The URL with links for both the Owners Manual and Service Manual is:

http://bfdguide.ws/z4manuals

You can also access both manuals without going to the above page as follows:

Owners Manual = http://bfdguide.ws/PLV-Z4_OM.pdf

Service Manual = http://bfdguide.ws/PLV-Z4.pdf

Thanks, Sonnie!

For those interested.


The URL with links for both the Owners Manual and Service Manual is:

http://bfdguide.ws/z4manuals

You can also access both manuals without going to the above page as follows:

Owners Manual = http://bfdguide.ws/PLV-Z4_OM.pdf

Service Manual = http://bfdguide.ws/PLV-Z4.pdf

thanks, Sonnie.

looks like the color shading repair sugguested in the service manual is way out of any do it yourselfer's league, not to mention getting the software from Sanyo. Even if the software can be installed by the Sanyo repair for free (which so far has not happened yet), I am not sure I will want my Z4 to have all its video signal digitally corrected before displayed. Anyway if you get one of those 40% Z4s with such color issue you will just have to count youself unlucky. :mad:

I have had my Z4 for about a month so far. I have almost exclusively been using it with a Oppo DVD and HR10-250 HD TiVo. I used ROne's HDMI settings for those and then for component as well for the TiVo when the HDMI broke. Today I finally got a chance to play with my 360 more. I started with PGR3 and noticed a problem with birghtness. PGR3 has a nice calibration graphic that I used to tweak.

I started with ROne's Creative Cinema settings. The only real problem was a lack of shadow detail and brightness range. I didn't see any issues as far as color goes. I only tweaked Gamma, Brightness and Contrast. I moved Gamma to +2, Brightness to +15 and Contrast -16. This way I can see the entire IRE chart it puts up (I will post a picture later).

First is this the right way to tweak it or should I be looking at gamma cutoff's for the colors? Second has anyone else tried out this game on Z4? Hopefully I can hook up my SpyderTV this afternoon through 360 and do some more testing.

Can I make a factory reset on the Z4 and then all settings revert to "direct from the factory"? I know my user settings will go, but if I can get rid of that white Sanyo text logo in my corners, it would be worth it!


After reverted back to"direct from factory" settings, I tried ROne's tweaking again and when I get to Group 105 on the service menu: Item 10 _ It just stop at +1 and won't let me change to +8 . what went wrong?Is there another way to completele reset the unit to "factory default setting" only?

In eco mode save temperature levels are:
TempA 27 - 35 (outer temp around the intake) could be for example 25-28
TempB 53 (temp wherefrom fan speeds start rising, error temp is >58)
TempC 46 (temp wherefrom fan speeds start rising, error temp is >51)
Never allow tempB and C over those values.

Go to the service menu and there group 102. Then put Item no 0 value 0 = Normal, 1 = Ceiling, change it to 1 for have influence to Ceiling mount. Then:

Item 50 (eco mode fan 1 minimum speed) value 1680 -> changeto -> 1245
Item 52 (eco mode fan 3 minimum speed) value 2340 -> changeto -> 1605

And please dont touch any other item values, absolutely not maximum speed values!

Then watch movie 1 h and go to the servive menu again, 1 h and repeat. Get followed values in group 102:

Good
TempA 26,73 or less
TempB 50,50 or less
TempC 40,11 or less


I'm getting increasingly annoyed at the noise from the Z4 in my ceiling mounted application. I was experimenting with the difference in fan noise between ceiling mount and off in the setup menu and it frustrated me further. With an SPL I measured about 5dB louder when ceiling mode is selected. I'm going to try the above adjustment. If the Z4 has all these temperature sensors I'm still unclear as to why they have these hard adjustments built in depending on position. Jupe points out in earlier threads how that can be completely irrelevant. Applying settings to real-world temperature measurements makes more sense.

I'm curious as to something I'm considering as an interim step before changing any values. Would it make sense to fire up the projector, turn off ceiling mode to activate the slower fan speed, let it run for an our, then check temps as above in service mode. Repeat but with the setting back to ceiling mount and then compare the two values. The ceiling off setting would provide a baseline and, if within acceptable tolerances, would offer appropriate values to copy to the ceiling mode.

Thoughts?

Jay--
That makes sense to me.

I used Jupe's settings and after the 1st hour everything seemed fine (a little high on temp C if I recall correctly). But after a 2nd hour it seemed like the high temperature settings had taken over. The temps were fine as per Jupe's settings, but the fan speeds had increased well beyond where they were set as minimum values. Of course the sound level had increased as well. I bumped up the minimums but haven't had time to test again. My Z4 is mounted very close to the ceiling and I figured that was the reason.

Does it seem logical that if you find the "right" setting for the minimum values, they would maintain the temps without the high/max settings taking over? (and maybe that's what Sanyo is attempting through their conservative automatic settings)

Keep us posted...

Daryl

Before I left this morning I ran the projector for an hour with ceiling mode off. The service menu registered the following temperatures:

Temp A = 28.5 (this was pretty much the peak, tended more around mid-to-high 27)
Temp B = 44.5 (stayed locked there)
Temp C = 37 +/- (hovered around but mostly in mid-to-high 36)

So Temp B and Temp C seem to be below the thresholds Jupe posted above (although I don't know what the second numbers represent). Temp A (temperature surrounding intakes) is a little high but Jupe's instructions suggest that fans will automatically adapt anyway. Measurement was taken using ROne's Living setting which has a fair amount of juice to it and not even in eco mode. More often then not I'm in Creative Cinema where light output is less.

It seems I should be able to safely drop the fan speeds consistent with ceiling mode off, perhaps a touch higher.

Before I left this morning I ran the projector for an hour with ceiling mode off. The service menu registered the following temperatures:

Temp A = 28.5 (this was pretty much the peak, tended more around mid-to-high 27)
Temp B = 44.5 (stayed locked there)
Temp C = 37 +/- (hovered around but mostly in mid-to-high 36)

So Temp B and Temp C seem to be below the thresholds Jupe posted above (although I don't know what the second numbers represent). Temp A (temperature surrounding intakes) is a little high but Jupe's instructions suggest that fans will automatically adapt anyway. Measurement was taken using ROne's Living setting which has a fair amount of juice to it and not even in eco mode. More often then not I'm in Creative Cinema where light output is less.

It seems I should be able to safely drop the fan speeds consistent with ceiling mode off, perhaps a touch higher.

Sounds interesting. I definately hear the Z4 and can hear the fan speed up & slow down depending on the brightness of the scene, but it doesn't bother me much. I guess less fan would be better although again, it doesn't bother me really. The only thing I'd worry about is that if somehow the temp DID go up and for whatever reason the fan speed turned out to be insufficient to cool things, if the Z4 shut down or died, my warranty would be void the second Sanyo sees I messed with those settings. Maybe that's not realistic, but I still worry about it which is why I haven't messed with the fan settings. What are your thoughts on that Jay?

I've been fiddling around with the Service Menu also, I got the initial advices from Jupe on a Finnish forum. Yesterday I modified the values for the ceiling mounted position to exactly the same settings as the normal position has. I'll try this out and see what happens the next time I've used the Z4 for longer than one hour. I first had the Z4 ceiling mounted but not turned up-side-down for a week and used it quite a lot. I then thought that my ceiling mount wasn't rigid enough and modified it for up-side-down mounting instead. I then figured that if the Z4 had worked ok mounted like this why would the fans have to spin any faster if it was up-side-down but mounted at the same height in the ceiling?

The only thing I'd worry about is that if somehow the temp DID go up and for whatever reason the fan speed turned out to be insufficient to cool things, if the Z4 shut down or died, my warranty would be void the second Sanyo sees I messed with those settings. Maybe that's not realistic, but I still worry about it which is why I haven't messed with the fan settings. What are your thoughts on that Jay?
I was originally cautious for the same reasons. But after hearing how low it actually can go and being constantly aggravated by the noise I'm changing my tune. Here's how I see it: the adjustment is to minimum fan speeds, not maximum. So the internal sensors still have the ability to wind up the fan as necessary given prevailing temperatures. If the minimum speeds are insufficient then it will self-adjust accordingly. As suggested above by Daryl there is probably good logic in better managing temperatures up front with adequate minimum speeds and not having to resort to higher levels. Which leads to my second idea supporting this tweak: if it gets too warm the projector has a failsafe to turn off to prevent internal damage. By design if it gets too warm and the fans can't accommodate the temperature it will cut the power. Presumably this would be a function of the maximum factory set fan speeds.

So long as you don't go crazy with the minimum speeds (the numbers for table mounting would be the floor) and maintain the factory maximum speeds there really shouldn't be a problem. That's what the sensors are for, and why it's somewhat ridiculous to force a higher floor when ceiling mounting. What's the difference if it's upside down but hanging in space vs. having a shelf mount the same distance from the ceiling? I would argue the free hanging installation would be better for airflow then any shelf or table mount. Jogge brings up another example as to why the Z4's logic doesn't work, where the projector is mounted at the ceiling but right-side up.

Do you think it matters with a flush mount like mine? I guess if the minimum setting for table usage isn't high enough, the Z4 will accomodate & go up in speed right? I'd just want to make sure that if the temp really did go up, that the unit indeed would kick it up a notch. Here's another quesiton. That fan not only adjusts according to temperature, but also to the lamp mode given the brightness of a particular scene you are viewing. How does lowering effect that? Will the fan speed adjustments per contrast change work properly still?

Do you think it matters with a flush mount like mine? I guess if the minimum setting for table usage isn't high enough, the Z4 will accomodate & go up in speed right? I'd just want to make sure that if the temp really did go up, that the unit indeed would kick it up a notch.

Here's another quesiton. That fan not only adjusts according to temperature, but also to the lamp mode given the brightness of a particular scene you are viewing. How does lowering effect that? Will the fan speed adjustments per contrast change work properly still?
Like ours - my Z4 is as tight against the ceiling as my Chief mount will allow (about 1 3/4" clearance). The speeds will adjust automatically up to the maximum RPMs defined in the setup. I'm not sure about how the lamp settings factor in, or how they're affected by adjustment. Perhaps Jupe can offer his thoughts. The measurements I took above were in Living mode with A1 or A2 lamp. I typically use Creative Cinema which has lower light output and economy lamp setting so presumably the temp values should be slightly lower. Likewise I would expect them higher on the Powerful and Dynamic presets. His instructions above show the item numbers for fan speeds relative to economy mode, so I imagine there would be adjustments specific to full/A1/A2 as well.

Good bye Z4! You guys have fun tweaking...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=644317

Sweet. If I were dropping those kind of dollars today on a projector that's what I would buy. You need to come back and post comparative review.

...so I imagine there would be adjustments specific to full/A1/A2 as well.
Indeed. These are for A1/A2:
Group 102, item 0 value 0 -> 1 (if not already, means "for ceiling")
Group 102, item 77 (fan1*) value 1680 -> 1245
Group 102, item 79 (fan3*) value 2340 -> 1605
(To other parts click me (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6543761&&#post6543761).)

However, even if its already reality in normal bookshellsetup and it should be roughly safe, I have some suspicion to preceding alteration. Whenever in A1 or A2 mode lamp turn in its high-mode-state, values gets other minimun position 'up' for fan1 1545 and for fan3 2235. Those are 'high-state' values you wont not (dare) alter anyway. So, user may expect annoying swinging sound, more than it would be without this change concerning precisely ceiling-mode. This could be acceptable - or not.

Jupe

What are the second numbers...

Good
TempA 26,73 or less
TempB 50,50 or less
TempC 40,11 or less

Made the change this evening. The numbers that Jupe references for the minimum fan speeds are the defaults for normal mounting mode. Here are the temperatures I measured after the change:

ON 1HR 2HR
TEMP A 26.50 28 +/- 29 +/-
TEMP B 40.87 46.25 45.5
TEMP C 34.43 37 +/- 37 +/-

As you can see TEMP B and TEMP C stayed pretty stable after warmup with the biggest increase in TEMP A (the surrounding temperature). All are within tolerance. There is a noticeable increase in fan speeds. I should have noted the baseline, but after 1 hour fan 1/3 RPMs were 1485 and 1755, respectively. After 2 hours they increased to 1605 and 1830, respectively. So clearly the system adjusts as necessary given the natural increase in temperature. And these values are still significantly more quiet then the factory floor imposed upon the ceiling mount option. Because this change only affects the ECO lamp mode you can quickly compare by switching to either full, A1, or A2.

This adjustment will probably yield greater benefit for those who have suspended rather then flush ceiling mounts as the surrounding air temperature will be cooler and thus the fan speeds won't increase as much. But even with a ceiling mount such as mine after a couple of hours use the fan speeds and resulting noise are still less then the factory setting. AND the temperatures stabilized right around my earlier measurements with the default ceiling settings. The difference in baseline noise between the two are pretty dramatic: with ceiling mode off you hear the whoosh of air passing through, but with ceiling on you also hear the fans whirring away.

Given careful initial monitoring of temps and tweaking accordingly this is a worthwhile adjustment for suspended or flush ceiling mounts where the noise is considered too much. The maximum fan speeds and auto temperature sensing will accommodate any difference as needed.

Good bye Z4! You guys have fun tweaking...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=644317

So much for telling me you'll never buy a Sony product again after your last projector's issues. ha! :D :rolleyes:

And hey, don't sound so negative about the Z4...I still have mine, not tweaking anymore & still lovin' it. ha!! ;)

Hi guys!

I just got my Z4 this afternoon, threw it up on the ceiling, and then used ROne's tweaking guide to set up my first preset "Creative Cinema D65 Settings for HDMI - HTPC - Nividia VMR. I have to say, it looks great!! But I am confused by one setting, and maybe someone could help me out here. ROne mentions that he uses HDMI L2, which if I understand correctly, uses PCI levels. The problem is that TT 2.2 using VMR9 ouptuts video levels, not PCI levels, so why is HDMI set to L2? Shouldn't it be set to L1 to match the video level output of VMR9?

Thanks!

So much for telling me you'll never buy a Sony product again after your last projector's issues. ha! :D :rolleyes:

And hey, don't sound so negative about the Z4...I still have mine, not tweaking anymore & still lovin' it. ha!! ;)

Alas, I did say that to you personally (not sure why you brought it up here :confused: ) but show me another 1080p option????? BYW no negativity intended against the Z4 I am not sure where you got that! It is a wonderful projector for it's price class. I have been in this price class for the last 5 years. (Actually longer starting with the 400Q then the 10HT and lastly the HS10) It is time for me to move on. I was hoping my Sony HS10 would have made it till the 2006 holiday season but it did not. I took a shot with a Z4 and felt it did not suit my obsession for perfection. Anyone out there who owns a Z4 should be proud for it has so much going for it with such a sharp vivid detailed picture!

FYI guys I originally tweaked the Z4 out with ROne's settings and thought they did make a difference, but I felt the picture was still missing something. But eventually I picked up a Spyder calibration package and spent time with the freeware calibration programs (found in the calibration forum) and found that this made an even bigger difference by doing my own D65 settings. I guess there are going to be differences between each Z4 and one set of calibration info provided does not fit all. You may want to take a look and see what the Spyder can do for you!

Oh and one last note I did find a CC30 filter and recalibrated using one of the powerful settings and ended up not liking it (I believe ROne said the exact same thing). Shutter was way to obvious even with the shutter tweaks. Good luck to all and feel free to drop a line with questions on the Spyder.

Hi guys!

I just got my Z4 this afternoon, threw it up on the ceiling, and then used ROne's tweaking guide to set up my first preset "Creative Cinema D65 Settings for HDMI - HTPC - Nividia VMR. I have to say, it looks great!! But I am confused by one setting, and maybe someone could help me out here. ROne mentions that he uses HDMI L2, which if I understand correctly, uses PCI levels. The problem is that TT 2.2 using VMR9 ouptuts video levels, not PCI levels, so why is HDMI set to L2? Shouldn't it be set to L1 to match the video level output of VMR9?

Thanks!

Bob, TT2.2 VMR 9 outputs the correct levels for mapping within PC levels.

L2 for you.

Oh and one last note I did find a CC30 filter and recalibrated using one of the powerful settings and ended up not liking it (I believe ROne said the exact same thing). Shutter was way to obvious even with the shutter tweaks. .

Yep.

Though I didn't try too hard - it just didn't seem to yield great results.

Make use of that ansi-contrast rather than going for absolute on/off iris activity.

FYI guys I originally tweaked the Z4 out with ROne's settings and thought they did make a difference, but I felt the picture was still missing something. But eventually I picked up a Spyder calibration package and spent time with the freeware calibration programs (found in the calibration forum) and found that this made an even bigger difference by doing my own D65 settings. I guess there are going to be differences between each Z4 and one set of calibration info provided does not fit all. You may want to take a look and see what the Spyder can do for you!

That's a great point that I think many people miss. There's no such thing as a cookie-cutter calibration. At best ROne's settings will get you closer then what the factory presets allow. My dealer will be doing a formal calibration at some point in the near future (broke the 100 hour barrier on the lamp) so I'm curious as to what difference that makes. Out of the box it's a no-brainer to plug in ROne's settings for immediate benefit. Still won't beat a formal calibration, though. I'm really tempted to pick up a Spyder for this reason. Be it for new projectors or adjusting as the lamp ages (and for calibrating other TVs in the house) it's a reasonable investment.


Oh and one last note I did find a CC30 filter and recalibrated using one of the powerful settings and ended up not liking it (I believe ROne said the exact same thing). Shutter was way to obvious even with the shutter tweaks. Good luck to all and feel free to drop a line with questions on the Spyder.

I'm torn about doing this. Intuitively the filter approach makes a great deal of sense given the logic behind it. It seems that CC30R filters are rather hard to come by locally, and I still have no clue as to how you would mount the thing to the Z4's unthreaded lens. Cine-4-Home's custom milled ring looks great but unfortunately they don't sell it separately.

I'm really looking forward to your thoughts about the Ruby once it's up and running. Image quality aside it's such a beautiful example of industrial design. It's nice when attention is paid to the appearance of the projector even when it's turned off.

ROne, thanks for the reply, but I just checked TT and it indeed outputs video levels, not PC levels, or at least in my setup:

video levels = 16 to 235
PC levels = 0 to 255

0% stimulus is outputting 16 - I checked using the color picker function in MS Paint
100% stimulus is outputting 235

I know that TT can output either PC or video levels, but most people set it to emulate a STB player, and as such set it to video levels. The default values in TT are set to video levels (if an Nvidia card is used). Have you actually checked your levels in TT, or have you purposely changed your settings to PC levels?

Or are you using the PC levels setting of the Z4 for some other reason?

Now if you switch to overlay, it does output PC levels, but I thought that you were avoiding overlay.

BTW, I am the HTPC moderator here, and though I don't profess to know everything, I do have a pretty good idea how TheaterTek works...;)

That's a great point that I think many people miss. There's no such thing as a cookie-cutter calibration. At best ROne's settings will get you closer then what the factory presets allow.
Good point, Jay, and one that I was going to mention. I have owned quite a few projectors, and the Z4 has the very worst out of box calibration I have ever seen! By simply plugging in ROne's numbers, the improvement was dramatic, but I can tell even without measuring that it is not quite perfect, and that is because every lamp is different, and the color balance changes as the lamp ages, so each unit needs to be calibrated individually to get perfect results. I will be calibrating mine with A GMB EyeOne Pro, but I plan on waiting until the lamp has about 100 hours on it, as the spectral balance changes most in the early hours.

But ROne's tweaks provide a wonderful start to getting the most out of your Z1. Heck, Sanyo should use his settings as the defaults, as they are MUCH MUCH better than the ones they are using now.

But ROne's tweaks provide a wonderful start to getting the most out of your Z1. Heck, Sanyo should use his settings as the defaults, as they are MUCH MUCH better than the ones they are using now.
I'd be interested in overwriting the factory CC and Living settings to ROne's and freeing up two user slots.

ROne, thanks for the reply, but I just checked TT and it indeed outputs video levels, not PC levels, or at least in my setup:

video levels = 16 to 235
PC levels = 0 to 255

0% stimulus is outputting 16 - I checked using the color picker function in MS Paint
100% stimulus is outputting 235

I know that TT can output either PC or video levels, but most people set it to emulate a STB player, and as such set it to video levels. The default values in TT are set to video levels (if an Nvidia card is used). Have you actually checked your levels in TT, or have you purposely changed your settings to PC levels?

Or are you using the PC levels setting of the Z4 for some other reason?

Now if you switch to overlay, it does output PC levels, but I thought that you were avoiding overlay.

BTW, I am the HTPC moderator here, and though I don't profess to know everything, I do have a pretty good idea how TheaterTek works...;)

Okay - firstly my card is a Radeon9600, not sure what emphasis puts on this debate.

When I put up the 0-255 steps, it's passing the full range - PC Levels.(Both BTB/WTW), which then need to be confined to 16-235, which was done on the display end, though I've not touched my card.

I did colour pick the frame a while back, and photoshop showed direct correlation with this when sampling the colours.

I thought VMR passed the full 0-255 range? Whereas overlay is alread ouputting 16-235 - it defo does with my Radeon.

I thought VMR passed the full 0-255 range? Whereas overlay is alread ouputting 16-235 - it defo does with my Radeon.
No, you have it backwards...VMR outputs 16-235 while overlay outputs 0-255. Like I said, you can force either video or PC levels by adjusting TT's controls, but if left at default they will output video levels. Andrew (TT's author) has set up the controls so that the default values are exactly correct for Nvidia cards, so the actual values used for Radeon cards might be different. Please read the calibration sticky on the HTPC forum for more details (if you are interested).

Also, please note that the color picker does not work in overlay (it will give you false values), while it works perfectly with VMR9.

I mean, if you calibrated the Z4 with the assumption that TT was outputting PC levels, that might account for why some of the gains and offsets are so extreme. You probably would have been able to reach the same results with less extreme changes by setting the Z4's HDMI input to L1 instead of L2, but since it is all done using L2 now, it really doesn't matter. I also tried a couple of STB sources that also output video levels and they looked fine with your settings, so that confirms that your settings are actually calibrated for video levels, not PC levels (that's a good thing! :) ).

When I put up the 0-255 steps, it's passing the full range - PC Levels.(Both BTB/WTW), which then need to be confined to 16-235, which was done on the display end, though I've not touched my card.
Ah, I think I see where you were confused. Even though you set up for video levels, the PC will still pass WTW and BTB (below 16 and above 235). The use of video levels versus PC levels is defined by what values you set for video black and video white, not what the system will pass. If you set up a 0% pattern to be represented as digital 16, then you have set it up for video levels. If you set up the same pattern so that it is represented by digital 0, then you have set up for PC levels. The same is true for video white. If you set up a 100% pattern to be represented by digital 235, then it is set for video levels, while if set to 255, it is set to PC levels. Regardless of which way you set your values to be represented, TT (and VMR) will still retain the ability to pass values below 16 and above 235.

A good way to understand this is by considering how a standard volume control works (you know, the old fashioned rotary pots which swing from about 7 o'clock to 5 o'clock. Now if someone puts a label "16" on the position of the knob when it is fully off and then puts a "235" when it is fully on, let's call that "video levels". Now take the same exact knob, but put a label that says "0" when the knob is fully off and "255" when it is fully on, we'll call that PC levels. The amount of change that the knob travels from fully off to fully on has not changed - just the labels have changed.

This is what happens when using video levels versus PC levels. The change from black to white is still the same, but we have just labeled that change using a different scale. To check whether or not you are using PC levels or video levels, you need to put up a 0% pattern in TT and then use the color picker to read the values assigned to it. If it comes up 0,0,0 then you are set up for PC levels, but if it comes up 16,16,16 then you are set up for video levels - Same goes for 100% white. If it comes up 235,235,235 then you are set to video levels, but if it comes up 255,255,255 then it is set to PC levels. In the PC forum we always check these values and then adjust the brightness and contrast in TT as necessary to make those values come up as 16 and 235 respectively, not 0 and 255. Just don't make the mistake of thinking that just because you can read values below 16 and above 235 that that means you are set up for PC levels. Is this making sense?

Regarding the L1/L2 subject here is my understanding.

L2 prepares the projector for PC levels 0-255. For example when your are playing a game the black is coded at digital 0. You need the L2 setting in order not to lose the 0-16 information. BUT when your reproduce a DVD black is coded at digital 16. HTPC passes the digital 16 value to the projector. If you set the projector to L1 then at digital 16 you see black, but if you set it to L2 you see gray. That's why you compensate for L2 settings with decreased brightness.

So, in my opinion standalone DVD and HTPC pass the same digital values. That's why I can use ROne's settings with my oppo and L2.

You can view a calibration DVD with your monitor and see that BTB information is clearly visible because the monitor shows black at digital 0.

I am open to suggestions!

Bob thank you for clearing out this tricky subject! ;)

Alas, I did say that to you personally (not sure why you brought it up here :confused: ) but show me another 1080p option????? BYW no negativity intended against the Z4 I am not sure where you got that!

Chuck...I was just kidding. You said it to me personally yes, but I didn't think it was a 'personal' statement in that you wouldn't want me to let anyone else know you said this. How you took anything I said in that post as a serious blast at you is beyond me. Your post was a bit of a kidding jab itself with the 'have fun tweaking' comment. To me it was like you were saying that the Z4 wasn't worth the trouble. I thought it was kinda funny, thus posted something back that I thought you might be amused by. Once again, I'm quite confused by your reaction to something that that was obviously in jest and not intended in any way to belittle or embarass you.

No, you have it backwards...VMR outputs 16-235 while overlay outputs 0-255. Like I said, you can force either video or PC levels by adjusting TT's controls, but if left at default they will output video levels. Andrew (TT's author) has set up the controls so that the default values are exactly correct for Nvidia cards, so the actual values used for Radeon cards might be different. Please read the calibration sticky on the HTPC forum for more details (if you are interested).

from that thread.



"Well, the general consensus seems to be that VMR9 renders a better-looking picture with more detail and more natural colors. It also passes the full 0-255 range, where Overlay may or may not depending on different video card settings, etc. And whether btb/wtw values are clipped or not may not matter to you anyway."

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=523614

from the thread on source settings.

VMR9 definately on my set up passes 0-255, without a shadow of doubt.

All my own charts concur (that show a 0-255 range)

Unless I am going completly mad that is.

Also, my TT settings are fine at default, I wouldn't normally touch them as the problems that can be created - all my calibration is done at the display end.

Obviously it is "calibrated" to 16-235 for the video levels, but I need to return to PC levels for the desktop and other apps. So L2 is the way, no matter how you tweak L1, it will not pass that bottom end 0-16 range. Maybe my terminology has not been the best when explaining.

I'm not professing to suggest that there isn't another way of setting it up and when you make tweaks to the Gain/Offset you'll see that the Z4 is angry beast when trying to tidy up the extremes!

I've got to say I didn't think I was confused!

I would be really pleased if someone else gives the Z4 ago, as I have lost a bit interest in messing with the thing.

"Well, the general consensus seems to be that VMR9 renders a better-looking picture with more detail and more natural colors. It also passes the full 0-255 range, where Overlay may or may not depending on different video card settings, etc. And whether btb/wtw values are clipped or not may not matter to you anyway."
Yes, that is correct...VMR9 passes the entire range from 0 to 255, BUT it is mapped to output in video levels from 16-235 by default in TT. I'm not arguing that VMR is not capable of passing the entire range...I'm just explaining that that is not how you will want to map the values.
VMR9 definately on my set up passes 0-255, without a shadow of doubt.
Yup!! It definitely does!! But once again, that is not how it will be mapped in TheaterTek...please check it!
Also, my TT settings are fine at default, I wouldn't normally touch them as the problems that can be created - all my calibration is done at the display end.
In that case TT is outputting VIDEO levels, since you have not changed them.
Obviously it is "calibrated" to 16-235 for the video levels, but I need to return to PC levels for the desktop and other apps.
Ah, so that's why you want to use PC levels! That provides the explanation I was seeking. I personally don't give a rat's ass about what the desktop and apps look like, as my sole purpose for the HTPC is for displaying DVD and HD video.

Now, if you want to calibrate the Z4 to play games on, for example, then that is another story entirely. The right way to do it would be to calibrate for video levels for watching DVD and HD, and have a separate user preset which uses PC levels for playing games (which would also include your desktop and other apps as well). I don't play games on my HTPC, nor do I compose Word documents...I simply watch movies and other recorded video media, and the correct way to calibrate for video is by using video levels. If it is a "one or the other" situation, then I agree with you to use PC levels.

Sorry, ROne, I was not trying to anger you, but rather trying to understand why you calibrated using PC levels instead of video levels. If you set up your PC for game playing and running apps as primary concerns, then you were right to use PC levels...that explains it perfectly...:) I incorrectly assumed that the only purpose for the HTPC is for DVD and HD media viewing just because those are the only things I use it for.

As far as further exploring the Z4, it won't be from me, as I am not especially impressed by its performance. My main projector is a Sony Ruby, and I bought the Z4 to replace my InFocus 4805 in my bedroom. To be honest with you, even though the InFocus is just a 480p unit, the image it produces overall is superior to what I have been able to get from the Z4. I will be selling or returning my Z4 and returning to the 4805, so I will leave you nice people alone now.

I apologize if I upset you, ROne, as that certainly was not my intention. Your work has been exceptional and the results have proven that you have a good eye for high quality images. My best goes out to everyone!

I cant get the horizontal and vertical adjustments to work anymore in the pict adjust?

Sorry if this is too basic - do you mean the lens shift, and are you sure the "lock" switch is in the right position?

i think i found that you cant use it in full only in zoom..... but ty ..............i saw people looking at fixed sets today and i told them to check out projectors...... I havent closed my mouth yet lol.. amazing

Yes, that is correct...VMR9 passes the entire range from 0 to 255, BUT it is mapped to output in video levels from 16-235 by default in TT. I'm not arguing that VMR is not capable of passing the entire range...I'm just explaining that that is not how you will want to map the values.

Yup!! It definitely does!! But once again, that is not how it will be mapped in TheaterTek...please check it!

I apologize if I upset you, ROne, as that certainly was not my intention. Your work has been exceptional and the results have proven that you have a good eye for high quality images. My best goes out to everyone!

Thanks for that, though I'm upset at all - just a common goal to improve.

One thing, when you mean "mapped" in TT - what do you mean precisley and how would this compare to the output established by the Nvidia Decoders in MCE?

Also bearing in mind we have different graphics cards/drivers how does TT establish these changes?

I thought you passed the entire range (0-255, VMR9 in other words I can see that range) and the confined the video levels with your display settings?

It was my understanding you avoided influence or expansion where possible from your graphics cards own controls?

Hi - do the tweaks in ROne's document pertain equally whether using hdmi or component cables? I am using component cables from an av receiver, being fed with a sony dvd changer and a hd satellite box. Should I start with the tweak document or something else?

Thanks.

Hi All,

Can anyone recommend the best calibration tool for the Z4? Since every home set up is different, I am interested in calibrating my Z4 but need the right tools to do so.

Thanks for any tips/advice

I'm getting increasingly annoyed at the noise from the Z4 in my ceiling mounted application. I was experimenting with the difference in fan noise between ceiling mount and off in the setup menu and it frustrated me further. With an SPL I measured about 5dB louder when ceiling mode is selected. I'm going to try the above adjustment. If the Z4 has all these temperature sensors I'm still unclear as to why they have these hard adjustments built in depending on position. Jupe points out in earlier threads how that can be completely irrelevant. Applying settings to real-world temperature measurements makes more sense.

I'm curious as to something I'm considering as an interim step before changing any values. Would it make sense to fire up the projector, turn off ceiling mode to activate the slower fan speed, let it run for an our, then check temps as above in service mode. Repeat but with the setting back to ceiling mount and then compare the two values. The ceiling off setting would provide a baseline and, if within acceptable tolerances, would offer appropriate values to copy to the ceiling mode.


Thoughts?

I had a problem years ago with mounting a projector at work on a ceiling. It gave out more noise when mounted than when sitting on a counter/table. An engineer suggest getting a bit of inner tube material and mounting it between the ceiling and the mount. We used a piece of absorbtion material that looks like gasket material and it immediately decreased the noise.

It seems as though the ceiling started to vibrate at the same resonance as the projector making the ceiling a speaker. Dampening the mount from the ceiling helped.

Troy

Hi All,

Can anyone recommend the best calibration tool for the Z4? Since every home set up is different, I am interested in calibrating my Z4 but need the right tools to do so.

Thanks for any tips/advice
Go to the section on Calibration and look under "New Calibration disc" its called Getgray and its WONDERFUL much better than DVE or Avia which I have too. But this is only $25 and SO SIMPLE to use.. see www.calibrate.tv :)

I had a problem years ago with mounting a projector at work on a ceiling. It gave out more noise when mounted than when sitting on a counter/table. An engineer suggest getting a bit of inner tube material and mounting it between the ceiling and the mount. We used a piece of absorbtion material that looks like gasket material and it immediately decreased the noise.

It seems as though the ceiling started to vibrate at the same resonance as the projector making the ceiling a speaker. Dampening the mount from the ceiling helped.

Troy
Hmmm... I ceiling mounted and have never heard the fan (maybe I have the speakers too loud :rolleyes: ) But seriously look at my DIY mount... I have isolation couplings between the PJ and mounting board... not for any reason but they allowed me "tilt" of the PJ if needed without putting a bending moment on the bolts and allowed me to have a forgiving drill pattern of the holes :D but maybe the thing they really do is isolate the vibration... just dumb luck I guess.

http://joannesmart.com/images/theater/DSCN3106.jpg