On my system, with a matte white screen, I actually increased the brightness a little. For me, these have been the best settings by far. I agree that there's a little too much red on some broadcast sources, but not all. I haven't modified them with color management, and may give that a try. I've used ROne's and the late great CLK's settings and I seem to get the most three dimensional picture with eagles4. I'd urge folks to give them a shot and see what works on each individual system.

Definately I'd urge everyone to try all settings that work well for someone. You never know what might look good for you. With Eagles4's settings, they just didn't look good for football last night. I'll try to do it from scratch again tonight and then try to tweak it. Even with color management tweaks, it looked only fair compared to my previous settings. Maybe it'll look better tonight to me! :) Again, I don't know why it didn't look good.

I will say again, that people should try my Dynamic settings that I posted a while back. I have yet to see settings that gave as much detail or depth. They were done by a pro & I think they look excellent. The only issue is the dynamic iris but for outdoor applications, it's not an issue (ie football) and it looks unbelievable. The only tweak you might want to make is that it looks just a tad blue without color management.

I'm currently using eagles4 settings and am pretty happy. What is the best way to tone down the slightly blooming whites without disturbing the rest of the picture? Black and colors are good, it's just the whites that are a little troublesome.

Dweezilz said

The whites were far too light and there was a white haze over the picture because it seems for my setup, brightness was far too high.
I found the same problem with this setup over HDMI. In studying the reverse grey ramps on Video essential with this setup the result was very unevn blotchy and the last two white sections are way too bright

I will take cappras advice and try the color management to turn down the white but would appreciate the sttings you have previously posted Dweezilz if you please. I would like to try them out.

Dick Kalagher wrote:

Cables are not directional. The electrons don't care which direction they go.

Here is the response from Ultralink cables on directionality.

" There are indicators on the VCV
cable because, when the copper is being pulled off the solid roll the is a
strain on the crystals in side. In order for the signal to get from
point A to point B with the less resistance we always have our cables
marked in the direction that the copper is pulled. Its like cutting
wood, when you cut with the grain it is easier, against the grain there
becomes resistance."

Hi,

I have connected my Z4 with HDMI to my Philips 5960 DVD Player. I used the tweaks described in this thread. The image is more than perfect. Now I have connected my Xbox to the Z4 with a vesa cable (I use the X2VGA adapter) . I use Xbox Media Center and display 720P. The image is nothing near to the DVD image, it's actually bad. Has someone encountered the same problem, or must I use component instead? Maybe someone has settings for VESA or component which can be shared here. I hope to get the image right. Strange thing is that the image on an Infocus X3 is much better?!

Hope to get some help...

Thanks!

ewok, my guess is the adapter is the culprit and might be doing something timing-wise to the signal that the Z4 doesn't like. Do you see any change if you force XBMC to 480? How does the MS dashboard (which outputs 480p) look?

With the 'official' MS component adapter the Z4 is so accurate you can clearly see differences in video stability between different Xbox versions and the decoder chips they use if you get close to the screen. The earlier xboxes produce a more solid image than the later ones...

Hi,

It seems that I did not set the dip switches in a correct way. Now have real vesa output (instead of composite....), but the image is still not sharp. This is obviously due to the low resolution divx movies. Maybe someone can share his/her settings with me, so I can try to get the image as good as possible.

I am going to try component as well, as I ordered a component adapter...

I have been using the various settings from members but have not been satisified. I have a Samsung 850 connected through HDMI. No matter what setting I use I either get the full black on the test disc of three black bars or crushed whites in the reverse gray ramps test. I get one or the other , not both which is what I am trying to achieve.

The Samsung manual has 4 settings for the HDMI;
RGB normal
RGB enhanced
Y P,..something something 4:4:4
Y P,..something something 4:4:2
It also has a brightness setting from 1 to 5

I have tried all these settings with the brightness between 1-3 I get the smooth gray scale but the third black bar is missing. At the 4-5 setting all three black bars are present but the gray scale is crushed for the last 3 or 4 white sections.

Question does anyone know the proper setting for the player?
Has anyone achieved the full spectrum in HDMI? I have done so with component on my other player. Finally it was mentioned that the whites could be reduced with the color management tool on the Z4. I have found that only colors are affected with this tool, black and white are not colors and are not adjustable. A exclaimation mark comes up on the screen if I try to adjust the white or black sections. Has anyone found a way around this?

I think that the essence of the color management tool is that you are making changes to the color decoder. These changes deal with different hues of color, while pure white is just that, thus doesn't fall under the color management tool. If you are getting too much 'blooming' etc...that is not a color issue, but a constrast and brightness issue so you'll need to make the fix elsewhere.

cappra
You can actually tone down the whites a bit by using the colour management as well.

How is this accomplished as the color management tool only works for color not black or white i have found.

Sometimes white is displayed as not a true white. There can be slight blue or red highlights. You can put the colour management crosshairs on these highlights and tone them down a bit.

I just received my SpyderTv Pro and the first thing it requests you do before
you start your calibration is to disable your iris in your projector. I am confused
on how I do this. I see the auto, close, open option for Lamp iris and for lens iris
I see the settings 0 to -60.

Could someone who uses the Spyder calibration advise me how they disabled their iris so they could perform their calibrations.

I suspect their may not be a way to do this and most picked creative or living modes since uses less iris function.

I apprecitate any help to my questions and when done my calibrations will post
my results.

Thanks,
David

Sometimes white is displayed as not a true white. There can be slight blue or red highlights. You can put the colour management crosshairs on these highlights and tone them down a bit.

To clarify my post, I was only referring to pure white, not when it's blueish or reddish white. I thought his issue was blooming, which is not a huge or color issue and can't be corrected with the color management tool. Maybe it was someone else with the blooming issue.

As for inconsistent white, with LCD's, white can be a bit blue on one side and red on the other...there is mention of this in the service manual and it needs to be fixed via software from Sanyo. If what we are talking about is purposeful close to white but with some red or blue in it, then that is not true white and depending on how the Z4 'sees' that particular color, color management should be able to adjust it. I have found however that most whites are not adjustable in that tool. I'm sure it'll vary depending on how far from pure white it is.

The only time I really noticed the reddish white was when I was watching a football game thru component and using an older Sylvania HD tuner. No problem with my DVD player (HD-1)
I do have a question concerning the colour manangment. When changing the colours, am I making changes to adjust for the colour decoder on that particular piece of equipment?

I was watching the Toronto/Ottawa hockey game last night and I noticed that when the play went into either defensive zone the ice became less bright and therefore less white. What I think was happening was less white ice was in the picture and more of the dark stands, and the Z4 was lowering the brightness to make the blacks in the stands look blacker. I have an HP screen and was using the Living setting. Can this be disabled in the Z4 for hockey games?

I posted a similar question back in June and someone responded that if I set the IRIS to Open that it wouldn't go dim. I tried that at the time and it did not work. It was the last game so I didn't worry about it until now. I use the LIVING setting and the HDMI input. Any other suggestions, or did I miss something? Thanks.

The only time I really noticed the reddish white was when I was watching a football game thru component and using an older Sylvania HD tuner. No problem with my DVD player (HD-1)
I do have a question concerning the colour manangment. When changing the colours, am I making changes to adjust for the colour decoder on that particular piece of equipment?

You are making direct changes to the Z4's color decoder.

Whew! 26 pages later.

My Z4 arrives later this week.

Some good tips and LOTS of overwhelming info!

Cut and pasted some settings to try.

Going to be using component for the first little bit until I get my Oppo 971.

Did anyone ever get a true discrete on/off for their Pronto. I clipped the
2 in the thread but just checking.

Stupid questions to follow shortly. ;-)

I posted a similar question back in June and someone responded that if I set the IRIS to Open that it wouldn't go dim. I tried that at the time and it did not work. It was the last game so I didn't worry about it until now. I use the LIVING setting and the HDMI input. Any other suggestions, or did I miss something? Thanks.

I have now begun to notice the same on selected viewing material. It does not seem to happen with DVD but regular t.v. is very noticable the brightening and dimming of the picture. This occurs no matter what setting I am in, ( living, creative, etc.) I would have to assume it has something to do with the auto iris function. Further back in this thread was a way to defeat the action of the auto iris. I would think it a good idea to set a memory for t.v. with the auto iris defeated. When I get time I will attempt it although it is not all that bothersome. It may be more programming specific.

Hello Z4 owners:

I've never taken much stock in people's settings. It never worked for me when I had the Z1. However with the advent of HDMI I have played around with everyone's settings here in this thread.

It's amazing to me what I've discovered. I own AVIA and have always thought it was the best way to get my picture looking the best it can be. What I've discovered with the Z4 and HDMI however is really got me scratching my head.

I own an DA-LITE HCCV screen with Sanyo Z4 hooked directly to a Toshiba HD-A1.

When use AVIA I get way oversaturated results. I've used AVIA hundreds of times and I know I'm using it correctly.

So this lead me to play around with settings posted here in this thread. I must say I'm FINALLY happy after months of tweaking. I can't believe that the settings posted by 'eagles4' is the best picture I've ever seen in my setup. Although lacking just a bit in shadow detail I get one heck of an image that just 'pops out at you'. Keep in mind this is only for DVD and HD-DVD. I don't use it for anything else except an occasional xbox360 game.

Putting eagles4 settings in and then running AVIA to see how far the two are off just makes me dumbfounded. How can his settings look so good on my screen as compared to an oversaturated AVIA calibration?

Just thought I would share my experience.

THANK YOU EAGLES4..!!!

The only time I really noticed the reddish white was when I was watching a football game thru component and using an older Sylvania HD tuner. No problem with my DVD player (HD-1)
I do have a question concerning the colour manangment. When changing the colours, am I making changes to adjust for the colour decoder on that particular piece of equipment?

cappra sent his Z4 in to me to get his perfectly tuned (and provide for a calibration review for the rest). Just wanted to comment for the rest of you that the ColorManagement tool is not a color decoder adjustment (rather it is a color replacement - AKA Crayola!)- but it can be used as one if you find color/tint is not getting you dialed in.

Basically what happens is when you pick a color you can finetune all the colors near that color and the dark and light shades of those colors. So if you pick red than it will do all shades of red from white to black and all hues between orange and crimson. If you pick colors away from RGBCMY then it is more of a replace "that" color function. So stick to RGBCMY colors and use it with your RGB filters and the color decoder test patterns in AVIA etc. for use with those filters.

While it can be used to fix colored white highlites - those are caused by other problems - not the color decoder. So you fix a wrong bluish white - but you also change a correct pastel blue. Use it for fixing your Red pushed video. (sunburnt faces, lipstick lips). You may find you need to modify an Orange and Crimson to get it to function more like a color decoder adjustment - which would fix ALL Red push issues - but then there is no test pattern for those.

I have verified it's behavior using AVIA PRO and DisplayMate which have some extensive color gamut patterns.

Hello Z4 owners:

I've never taken much stock in people's settings. It never worked for me when I had the Z1. However with the advent of HDMI I have played around with everyone's settings here in this thread.

It's amazing to me what I've discovered. I own AVIA and have always thought it was the best way to get my picture looking the best it can be. What I've discovered with the Z4 and HDMI however is really got me scratching my head.

I own an DA-LITE HCCV screen with Sanyo Z4 hooked directly to a Toshiba HD-A1.

When use AVIA I get way oversaturated results. I've used AVIA hundreds of times and I know I'm using it correctly.

So this lead me to play around with settings posted here in this thread. I must say I'm FINALLY happy after months of tweaking. I can't believe that the settings posted by 'eagles4' is the best picture I've ever seen in my setup. Although lacking just a bit in shadow detail I get one heck of an image that just 'pops out at you'. Keep in mind this is only for DVD and HD-DVD. I don't use it for anything else except an occasional xbox360 game.

Putting eagles4 settings in and then running AVIA to see how far the two are off just makes me dumbfounded. How can his settings look so good on my screen as compared to an oversaturated AVIA calibration?

Just thought I would share my experience.

THANK YOU EAGLES4..!!!


Can you link to Eagle's settings? I have not been thrilled with my Z4 from day 1 and it is mostly due to the dynamic iris. What a joke that is. But I am willing to try anything I can to get an improved image.

Greg

Definately I'd urge everyone to try all settings that work well for someone. You never know what might look good for you. With Eagles4's settings, they just didn't look good for football last night. I'll try to do it from scratch again tonight and then try to tweak it. Even with color management tweaks, it looked only fair compared to my previous settings. Maybe it'll look better tonight to me! :) Again, I don't know why it didn't look good.

I will say again, that people should try my Dynamic settings that I posted a while back. I have yet to see settings that gave as much detail or depth. They were done by a pro & I think they look excellent. The only issue is the dynamic iris but for outdoor applications, it's not an issue (ie football) and it looks unbelievable. The only tweak you might want to make is that it looks just a tad blue without color management.

Can you repost your settings? I gave up trying to get a really good picture out of my Z4 but am now motivated to try again.

Greg

Can anyone using a Toshiba HD-A1 post their settings, I'd like to compare

Can you link to Eagle's settings? I have not been thrilled with my Z4 from day 1 and it is mostly due to the dynamic iris. What a joke that is. But I am willing to try anything I can to get an improved image.

Greg

Here you go:

Start with Creative Cinema!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by eagles4
[... snip ...]

DVI/HDMI Settings:
Brightness -9
Contrast +7
Color +5
Tint 0
Sharpness 0
R +10
G 0
B -5
Gain R +3
Gain G 0
Gain B +11
Offset R +6
Offset G -1
Offset B -12
L1
Gamma 0
Lens Iris -25

[... snip ...]

I want to comment further on eagles settings. The picture is fantastic. However I wasn't happy with the shadow details lost in the dark screens.

I changed to L2 in the HDMI settins and then backed off the brightness (about -5) to where I felt I was getting good blacks and getting more details in the dark scenes. Also moved the lens iris to -40 so the iris doesn't keep flickering. The picture won't 'pop' as much but its a tradeoff I can live with.

Greg -

put the iris to -40. this helped me out a lot. this should stop the adjusting of the iris so much.

Dweezilz-

yes, please repost. I searched this thread and didn't see your actual post. Are you just using Rone's dynamic settings?

Kami -

I'm using HD-A1 with eagles settings.

As far as I can recall, ROne didn't do one based on Dynamic, only Creative Cinema and Living. This one is based on Dynamic and it's very nice for outdoor events and sports. It's also great for bright HD shows. Keep in mind that it has the lamp on max just so you realize it's not in it's life-span maximization mode! You'll also need to do the tweaks ROne posted for controlling the auto iris as it's pretty noticable in Dynamic mode. You won't really see it during sports and live presentations anyway which is where this setting really shines. You also might want to tone down blue if it's too cold for you. I have yet to see more detail in a picture than I do with this setting.

Use DYNAMIC as base for Componant but works nicely with HDMI L1 with a few adjustments:
B= 0
C= -4
C. Sat = +5
TINT = 0
Color Temp = MID OR HI (personal pref)
R = -10
G = 0
B = +5
SH = 0
Lamp Cont = Normal (full)
Gamma = +1
Lense Iris = -40
Lamp Iris = Auto
Turn off all artificial enhancements in adv. menu
everything not mentioned should be default
Needs color management to personal preferences
Might need to decrease offset blue and/or blue a bit (again personal pref)

I tried Eagles settings last night again. They look great as far as color goes...the best I've seen without color management tweaking. They weren't as bright as my other settings (ROne's Living setup or my Dynamic) though but the tradeoff for color might be worth it for certain shows. I think the lack of brightness for me is because of differences in screen material. I'm using a DaLite HCCV so it won't be nearly as bright as a high power white. The advantage of HCCV however is much better black levels and brighter picture with some ambient lighting on so I'll take that (for those times when company is over and we are eating in the theater). Thanks to Eagles4 for a nice alternative! Definately nice when more brightness isn't required.

Let me know what you guys think about those Dynamic settings I posted. They aren't perfect and I don't use it for everyting, but for certain programming they are very strong I think.

I use Eagle's settings as well, but not those for contrast & brightness -- those really need to be set for your particular room/screen. Also, I do not use any color and tint and adjustments on the HDMI input, as color decoding is being done by the source.

Dweezil - I'm gonna try your settings with the xbox360. I've not been happy with any settings as of yet using the 360. I don't have an hdtv reciever yet to try it on sports so I'll have to wait on that.

Dweezilz - You say you don't use your settings for everything.. I am under the assumpton you use them for mostly satellite or cable? How about when you watch DVD what settings you use?

Thanks.

Dweezilz - You say you don't use your settings for everything.. I am under the assumpton you use them for mostly satellite or cable? How about when you watch DVD what settings you use?

Thanks.

I switch mostly between my modified ROne Living settings and these Dynamic settings depending on what I'm watching. If the Living settings don't look good to me for something, then I'll switch to the Dynamic. I use Dynamic mostly for sporting events and HD 'shot on video' shows but sometimes will use it for HD primetime depending on the show. For DVD's I often use the living settings but will try the Eagles4 settings. I hope to try to brighten those settings up a bit for me by using my DVE DVD.

I use Eagle's settings as well, but not those for contrast & brightness -- those really need to be set for your particular room/screen. Also, I do not use any color and tint and adjustments on the HDMI input, as color decoding is being done by the source.

Not true.

If the HDMI source sends out YCbCr the decoding is done on the display, when the source sends out RGB it did the decoding.

But here is the catch - in response to market demand where the missing color/tint controls where - marketing got the HDMI chippers to add a RGB encoding/decoding step thru YCbCr so that the color decoder controls will work. And display marketing also decided they like to video push red - without consultation with the player marketer who also decided they like to video push red.

So you do need to adjust your color/tint and color management settings regardless of using digital HDMI. Makes a big difference! But you need AVIA with the RGB filters to do it right.

Digital does not mean it is right - it just means it was even easier for marketing to screw with the signal.

Kraz, thanks for the clarification. I was just referring to an RGB signal. Is it safe to say tint/color are not required for such, or is it likely that's been screwed with and needs to be adjusted?

Dweezilz -

I just tried your settings today. Yours is the best for me. I too have an HCCV screen but i'm using HDMI. I flipped thru 3 different movies and yours had the most natural colors I've ever seen. Also was really suprised at the added brightness I achieved with your settings. I still had to bump up brightness several notches for the movie 'unforgiven' to get the most detail in dark scenes but it was prolly the way the movie was shot. For Batman Begins I was really happy with details in dark scenes.

I can't even watch using eagles settings anymore. I guess I got caught up in the 3 dimensional and vibrant colors of his settings. Not to say they aren't good but with my screen material it isn't a good match. I'm not sure what screen he uses.

Thank you so much!!!

glad they worked for you. I really dig that setup in combo with the HCCV material. I have yet to see as much fine detail in my picture as I see using these settings. It could be too bright for those with higher gain / lower contrast screens (I'm not sure) and maybe the colors aren't as warm as some like to see, but it really provides great details, shadows, and vibrance. After watching Eagles4 settings for several more hours, I have concluded the same; just not a good match for the HCCV material. Colors are excellent with eagles setup, yet it's just not bright enough and bumping brightness and/or gamma just added an unwanted 'haze' instead of brightening the picture. I'm going to keep tweaking the eagles4 settings since the color is so good, but for now, I'm probably going to stick with my modified ROne 'Living' and my ChuckC Dynamic for most of what I watch.

As has been said before, it's very difficult to take a setup and have it work out the same when we have different rooms and different screens. Even more so than any variance in the Z4 itself, I think something we have been missing for the most part is that, throwing out any variance in ambient lighting or reflection from different types of paint on the walls, one of the most important and impactful differences is screen material. A setup that looks great on a super high gain white screen will not look close to the same on a gray screen that has lower gain, but has far more contrast and better black levels in lew of some brightness. That's the difference here, so it's not a knock on anyone's settings.

I really think that when we provide settings it would be very helpful to give the type of screen material being used. That will really clarify what we should expect from a setup since screen material makes things so very different from setup to setup.

Kraz, thanks for the clarification. I was just referring to an RGB signal. Is it safe to say tint/color are not required for such, or is it likely that's been screwed with and needs to be adjusted?

They in fact screw up the HDMI RGB signal - I tested that specifically! I even emailed gregr (the designer of the AccuPel generator I used) asking how tint could possibly be off on RGB which is supposed to be a pass thru no video processing input. He said indeed it is more common now that RGB turns back to YCbCr to allow adjustment (since HDMI needs to support YCbCr anyways) but if they use the decoding in the HDMI chips themselves then the math is right. The fact that it was not says they adjusted it for wrong tint and red push in another chip!

Greyscale is not impacted by RGB as they did not adjust that - it was the YCbCr conversion they screwed with. This is a bit silly since panels require RGB - but people want their tint controls! So you have YCbCr on your DVD which gets turned into RGB in the player - which then the display takes that RGB and converts back to YCbCr so video controls are there - then convert back again to RGB. Since your player had the opportunity to screw with it as well as the display - no point in getting anyones settings - just get the AVIA RGB filters and have at it. But do your best bet to get the greyscale corrected first as it is a bit off and will corrupt the colors.

I really think that when we provide settings it would be very helpful to give the type of screen material being used. That will really clarify what we should expect from a setup since screen material makes things so very different from setup to setup.

Dalite HCCV pushes cyan, CV pushes yellow - but this depends on the age of the formula. Since the bright modes are cyan-blue a CV would match well - but not a HCCV! Of course I refer to push not gain - the HCCV is a better gain match over CV.

I have an old HighContrast DaMat that is correct (new formula has a gain coating - I need to measure it), a Draper Hi-Def Grey that pushes blue. Stewart FireHawk pushes blue. In DIY paints Misty Evening pushes Cyan. The only screen that does not push is the Stewart ST130 - has remained ISF certified for a while.

Stewart really should have made the PinkHawk but I guess they chickened out....but a great match for bright modes to detune the cyan lamps.

CreativeCinema is magenta pushed, PureCinema is crimson pushed, Living is blue pushed greysacle - they have just a bit more push than your screen so they are not bad, but any amount of push will corrupt color (combine that with bad video decoding even for digital RGB sources). And the mode with the best colors (Natural) has a funky cyan darks and blue lights greyscale. Of course this is LCD which is an analog panel - so there will surely be variance. Just be aware that a screen can help or hurt you on the cinema presets. Better to learn how to tweak than how to plug.

I have a calibration review forthcoming on my website - but it waits for cappra to get it back, reinstalled and retuned basic adjustments.

Can't wait .. :D

Dalite HCCV pushes cyan, CV pushes yellow - but this depends on the age of the formula. Since the bright modes are cyan-blue a CV would match well - but not a HCCV! Of course I refer to push not gain - the HCCV is a better gain match over CV.

I have an old HighContrast DaMat that is correct (new formula has a gain coating - I need to measure it), a Draper Hi-Def Grey that pushes blue. Stewart FireHawk pushes blue. In DIY paints Misty Evening pushes Cyan. The only screen that does not push is the Stewart ST130 - has remained ISF certified for a while.

Stewart really should have made the PinkHawk but I guess they chickened out....but a great match for bright modes to detune the cyan lamps.

CreativeCinema is magenta pushed, PureCinema is crimson pushed, Living is blue pushed greysacle - they have just a bit more push than your screen so they are not bad, but any amount of push will corrupt color (combine that with bad video decoding even for digital RGB sources). And the mode with the best colors (Natural) has a funky cyan darks and blue lights greyscale. Of course this is LCD which is an analog panel - so there will surely be variance. Just be aware that a screen can help or hurt you on the cinema presets. Better to learn how to tweak than how to plug.

I have a calibration review forthcoming on my website - but it waits for cappra to get it back, reinstalled and retuned basic adjustments.

Not sure why the bright modes look so much better to me on my HCCV (it's the newer 1.1 gain version). For some reason Eagles4 settings just look dull on my screen yet the color is great while the brighter modes (the very bright dynamic and slightly brighter than CC Living) have so much more punch and contrast that I'm gladly giving a bit on the color accuracy to gain that visual power. For me at least I'd rather have slightly off the mark colors that I can correct to some degree with color management and have a bright and colorful picture with 'good' blacks than have great color and a flat punchless picture. That's why I never used ROne's Creative Cinema either; I only used his Living and adjusted from there. ChuckC's Dynamic setting that I posted definitely pushes Cyan for sure! But even with my HCCV, I'd much rather have slightly blue with huge punch than near perfect color with lack luster contrast and brightness.

krasmuzik, does what I see sound about right?

That is because the bright modes sacrifice calibration for brightness and contrast. Your colors are going to be way off - it is not just a bit. The tint is horrific and the color brightness is way to high (actually I standardize my subjective adjectives in my reviews - so lets just say - very poor...)

But don't think you can adjust it just using tint/color controls - as the issue is the greyscale - you cannot get tint/color right unless the greyscale is right. ColorManagement has not enough range to make those corrections. (Infocus does this on their alternate greyscales - get the color right and you notice white balance off less) Your HCCV is just pushing it in the same direction it was already being pushed - so you are even more cyanish!

If you had the same brightness/contrast in cinema mode - you would realize this and like it even more. What most people do not realize is how badly greyscale impacts the colors - which is why I have detailed color charts in my calibration reviews.

You can regain brightness by downsizing or gaining your screen material. Since it has a good zoom - reduce the image size signficantly and compare colorbars in cinema mode this way vs. what you have now (Natural has good colors - but PureCinema may match your screen better). Most people don't realize what they are missing until they see it. You may realize that with a DaLite HighPower you get the brightness and color you want - and can live with the contrast.

I did get superb contrast for cappra with a hybrid of power/vivid mode that calibrates as best as possible and turns it way way down to match cinema mode brightness. Not as good as the calibrations based on the cinema modes - but contrast exceeded marketed specs :D

I also tried the FL-D magenta filter I had - but since I turn it way down I could balance the colors OK - and it did not fit anyways. For those wanting to play with filters the bright modes are a very cyan-blue - which an orange filter would oppose well without calibration. If your screen is Cyan - then the red filters would work better. The FL-D works with calibration since it cuts green you can increase green for more contrast - with it I could embarrass a Ruby! Or if you are into DIY screen painting - try tinted paints - little brightness loss as with a filter. I leave it up to you to explain the pink or orange screen as far as WAF!

I have never had anyone with a calibration say after they watched it a couple weeks they went back to the torch modes. I usually provide for calibrated modes with a bit of brightness goose so only the high IRE colors are off though just to goose the specs - and teach people how to see the differences so they can decide for themselves.

OK..well, I understand what you are saying. Again for most HD programming and DVD's, I use ROne's customized 'Living', not the torch modes. I use the Dynamic torch modes for outdoor sports mostly and some 'live' HD content like nature shows or travel. Movies and shows like 'Heros' or 'CSI-Miami', I use a ROne Living customization.

When it comes down to it, I got the HCCV because that's what several personal friends I trust in the HT industry said was the best match for the Z4 (and most LCD's) with enough punch and enhanced contrast/blacks. I'm laughing right now because when I even suggested to my one friend who is a pro home theater designer, that I was investigating some other screen options, he got all upset with me for not trusting him!! ha! So, would you say HCCV was a mistake? At this point, it's what I have and there is no way I can get a new screen. So, given that, what would you suggest since the torch modes have poor color and CC isn't enough punch with my screen for me? Just stick with the decent colors of Living with color correction and be done with it? I can live with bad color for sports to get that huge punch. For shows and DVD's, I obviously can't live with bad color. What would you say I should do?

Hi guys,

Based on what I've read so far, Z4 should work fine for me. I would just like some moral support :) and perhaps some advice.

My media room is very small, throw distance only 8-8.5'. That gives me some 80-84" screen size with full zoom. The projector will be mounted about 6' high. I like all Z4 features, but I'm somewhat worried about its 1000 lumens brightness. I used to borrow a Viewsonic PJ650 from work which is a multimedia projector but it has 2000 lumens, and I like how bright it is.

I was looking at the AX100 for awhile, then Z5, but I don't have any HD source and I don't plan to have any in the near future, so it's pretty much regular DVD watching for me (from HTPC). I don't think I could justify the price difference for getting an AX100 or Z5 (I'm in Canada, so it's pretty bad) and not even using it for HD. I can get a nice Carada screen for that amount.

If I get a Z4, should I get a 1.0 gain screen or high gain? Is Carada Brilliant White any good, and would it look bright enough so I don't get disappointed? The seating is within the screen width (just two chairs).

Thanks.

I've had a Sanyo Z2 for 2 years and will be receiving a new Sanyo Z4 tomorrow or the next day. I have a 133" Hi Power, so I'll be able to let you know how it looks then. In the meantime, the Z2 looks great on the Hi Power, so I can imagine how much better the Z4 is going to be!

.

When it comes down to it, I got the HCCV because that's what several personal friends I trust in the HT industry said was the best match for the Z4 (and most LCD's) with enough punch and enhanced contrast/blacks. I'm laughing right now because when I even suggested to my one friend who is a pro home theater designer, that I was investigating some other screen options, he got all upset with me for not trusting him!! ha! So, would you say HCCV was a mistake? At this point, it's what I have and there is no way I can get a new screen. So, given that, what would you suggest since the torch modes have poor color and CC isn't enough punch with my screen for me? Just stick with the decent colors of Living with color correction and be done with it? I can live with bad color for sports to get that huge punch. For shows and DVD's, I obviously can't live with bad color. What would you say I should do?

Depending on the screen mount you purchased from Da-Lite with your HCCV you can simply change the screen material within the mount. I researched this when I purchased the last projector I owned after finding it much brighter than the previous HS-10 LCD projector so I did not need so much gain as the CV provided.

I really don't want to spend a bunch of money on new material. I have a permwall that needs to have snaps. It would cost at least $350-$450 I'm guessing since the majority of the $600 it orginally was had to be the material, not the frame.

Either way, I don't think we've concluded that the HCCV isn't a good match for Z4. Everything I've heard says it is so I don't want to just dump it in haste. I'd really hate to get rid of it only to find out that I prefer the greater constrast/blacks than slightly brighter from higher gain material.

Dweezils,

I have a Da-lite HCMW and a Da-Lite High Power that I use along with my Z4. I prefer the HCMW because of the enhanced blacks. If the colors are slightly skewed I can't tell, nor do I care that much. I'm very picky about the picture my PJ throws but I'm not anal about it. If your screen is similar in materials to the HCMW then you should be just fine, unless of course you're anal about it.... ;)

My Z4 came in today. Of course I had to try it out immediately.

Simply all I can say is wow. I know the out of the box settings are
nothing spectacular but if it can only get better... wow....

Can't wait to get home from work, but of course tonight we have
to stay late for inventory, I feel like a kid at Christmas!

Got a smoking deal on the Z4 with a spare lamp. I figure it'll do me
for a first PJ for now.

I'll try some settings from this thread later this week. Gotta get her
mounted to the ceiling, and finish wiring the power outlet and new
circut breaker in.

OK..well, I understand what you are saying. Again for most HD programming and DVD's, I use ROne's customized 'Living', not the torch modes. I use the Dynamic torch modes for outdoor sports mostly and some 'live' HD content like nature shows or travel. Movies and shows like 'Heros' or 'CSI-Miami', I use a ROne Living customization.

When it comes down to it, I got the HCCV because that's what several personal friends I trust in the HT industry said was the best match for the Z4 (and most LCD's) with enough punch and enhanced contrast/blacks. I'm laughing right now because when I even suggested to my one friend who is a pro home theater designer, that I was investigating some other screen options, he got all upset with me for not trusting him!! ha! So, would you say HCCV was a mistake? At this point, it's what I have and there is no way I can get a new screen. So, given that, what would you suggest since the torch modes have poor color and CC isn't enough punch with my screen for me? Just stick with the decent colors of Living with color correction and be done with it? I can live with bad color for sports to get that huge punch. For shows and DVD's, I obviously can't live with bad color. What would you say I should do?

HCCV is a good screen - the question is do you optomize the screen to your room or your projector. I prefer to optomize the screen to the room and calibrate the projector to it - but if you are not calibrating your projector - I was just pointing out your screen is making the colorpush of the projector modes you are using worse - a tradeoff for better blacks in your room. Since nobody makes a pink screen - if you are not into DIY tint screens - then you should look into color correction filters if you don't like the cinema modes lack of punch. Filters will not be as bright but will optomize the contrast and color and you take off the filter for sports. Of course unless you have it calibrated it will not be perfect - but if you know which way to go with the filters you may make it better. Or like you said you use Living as your start point for reasonable compromise - and calibrate greyscale/color in that mode.

Just the post I've been waiting for! Thanks for the info! :)

Since I'm so use to seeing my 51" CRT HDTV's great blacks, I'd rather stick with the better contrast with the HCCV material. I'll think I will stick with Living as the compromise as you said. At this point the color is pretty good (better than the Dynamic color) and I will have to throw in my DVE DVD to see just how good I can get it. For sports where I don't care about the exact color and only look for huge punch, that Dynamic setting will do just fine. Colors are a bit blown out, but it's great for sporting events. The one thing I need to try to get rid of is a purpleish tint to lips and eye lids (sounds strange huh? :) ) that I get with Living. If I can get rid of that, I'm happy with the color and brightness of Living mode.

Are there filters readily available that work well with Z4 and how much are they? If they are inexpensive, I'd be interested to test to see what I can do with one. Would I use it for Dynamic mode to adjust the color? Which would you suggest?

I prefer Hoya HMC brand filters.

I use the FL-D filter usually - but that will best work if you are calibrating advanced RGB level. I generally don't do filters as they push not just the greyscale but the colors as well - so you have to try different ones and evaluate tradeoffs.

But if you are just trying to offset presets - then you want the filter that is opposite color of the push in the mode you are using. For that best wait for my calibration review - I use a colorwheel format to show greyscale. The bright modes being a cyan-blue - I would start with an orange warming (#81) filter. I had a 72mm FL-D and it is right size - but the lens protudes too much - so you need a filter with deeper threads. So between tweaking for right color and right size - you can go thru a lot of filters.

The problem Living has is the greyscale is blue, and the color is pushed to high - thus the purple lips (Red+Blue=Magenta). Throw in your DVE to get color/tint dialed in and cut back on Blue in the color temp section Problem is go to far and now everything becomes nasty yellow - so it is not easy!. I would usually say try to get your grayscale dialed in by eye by looking at secondary colors cyan, yellow, magenta - but will not work here because color/tint/decoding is screwed up even on RGB inputs.

Of course I use test equpment, patterns and sensors to do this - I don't ever calibrate by eye. Tweaking by viewing regular material can drive you crazy - is it the source or is it the display?

.
....I know the out of the box settings are
nothing spectacular but if it can only get better... wow....

.....

Is there a manufacture date on the projector? Since you just bought it, your projector was probably manufactured recently. I would think that Sanyo would have read all the posts and reviews on the Z4 by now and corrected at least some if not all the issues (including calibration) found in the early units. This theory of course applies to all manufacturers.

Thought I would also post my settings for the HDMI input in case anyone wants to try something other than ROne's (which were for PC levels over HDMI)

This is for a Sony DVD changer connected via upscaling HDMI (outputting video levels).

Brightness 0
Contrast -9
Color +2
Tint +5
RGB 0,0,0
Sharpness -5
Lamp A2
Gamma 0
Lens Iris -44
Gain R +5
Gain G +1
Gain B +2
Offset R -4
Offset G +3
Offset B -9
Gamma R +5
Gamma G 0
Gamma B -1

Did you use L1 or L2 for this set up? It is not specified also which setting, creative or living or what?

On another note is everyone removing both filters to clean the unit or are they just cleaning from the outside? I think removing the filters is asking for trouble.

I'm back to using Rone's living settings. However with my screen material (HCCV) I have to bump up the brightness and gamma a couple notches each otherwise I can't see details in dark scenes.

Yep, that's basically what I did as well. Aside from the blue issues with Living and the HCCV, it's quite good. I'm still gonna try to get those purple lips and eye lids toned down a bit. Do you see that as well?

Hi guys,

Based on what I've read so far, Z4 should work fine for me. I would just like some moral support :) and perhaps some advice.

My media room is very small, throw distance only 8-8.5'. That gives me some 80-84" screen size with full zoom. The projector will be mounted about 6' high. I like all Z4 features, but I'm somewhat worried about its 1000 lumens brightness. I used to borrow a Viewsonic PJ650 from work which is a multimedia projector but it has 2000 lumens, and I like how bright it is.

I was looking at the AX100 for awhile, then Z5, but I don't have any HD source and I don't plan to have any in the near future, so it's pretty much regular DVD watching for me (from HTPC). I don't think I could justify the price difference for getting an AX100 or Z5 (I'm in Canada, so it's pretty bad) and not even using it for HD. I can get a nice Carada screen for that amount.

If I get a Z4, should I get a 1.0 gain screen or high gain? Is Carada Brilliant White any good, and would it look bright enough so I don't get disappointed? The seating is within the screen width (just two chairs).

Thanks.

I have a 119" HP screen and 1300 hours on my Z4 and DVD's look good and HDTV looks great. I don't think you can go wrong with the HP screen because as the bulb dims over time the picture will still be bright enough--especially at your smaller screen size.

Yep, that's basically what I did as well. Aside from the blue issues with Living and the HCCV, it's quite good. I'm still gonna try to get those purple lips and eye lids toned down a bit. Do you see that as well?

Been using living for a while aswell. Thank god someone else sees the purple lips. I thought I was the only one.... If you find out how to get rid of them please let us me know.

I know how! :D It just cost time&money :D For the free version see my last post.

Hi there, has anyone come up with some good settings for the Z4 with the Toshiba A1 as the source through HDMI?

Thanks!

Been using living for a while aswell. Thank god someone else sees the purple lips. I thought I was the only one.... If you find out how to get rid of them please let us me know.

Turn the color off! Seriously, though, I have seen the purple lips as well in the Living setting with HP screen; but only on Star Wars IV. I just thought it was the age of the movie. Other DVD movies look very natural (mostly newer ones), as does HDTV off satellite. How old is your Z4? Mine is just 4 months old. If yours is older maybe the newer ones have been calibrated differently.

I would venture to say that no two Z4's are alike with calibration numbers. When I had a Z1 and everyone was hacking the service menu numbers, no one had exactly the same numbers from the factory. Using some one elses settings is no guarantee of the "perfect" picture, taking into account all the varibles. Try someone's settings and if they look good to you, go with it! Please no one but yourself... I had my unit ISF'd and am pleased with it, but I would not give out the the numbers as they will not work for the majority of Z4's since things like the screen colour, source imput, (the Toshiba HD1 pushes red ) different cable boxes and the difference between component and HDMI imput. All of these things have to be taken into account. For most people, the stock settings with a little tweaking will throw a great picture. It's just that other 10% like myself that are looking for that last little edge!

cappra-

I have believed this myself for years and have laughed at why people gave each other settings numbers. But with the advent of HDMI it seems that you can achieve pretty close to what someone else has

That is the major misconception about digital projectors - use them with digital inputs and you will be just fine.


First problem. Digital projectors are not all digital. DLP has an analog lamp - main cause of greyscale variance - that is after marketing/manufacturing screwing with the digital preset greyscales since this is so much easier to do now than those old analog CRTs. LCD/LCOS/SXRD are a non-linear panel controlled by voltages - which means panel greyscale will vary depending on analog voltages and those vary depending on manufacturing tolerances. And you still have the lamps. So greyscale will vary - and you need calibration sensors to fix it. Get the grayscale of the panel wrong and the colors are already guaranteed to be wrong - before the video has even had a chance to screw that up!

Next problem. In theory you should be able to plug in an HDMI and have perfectly decoded video. Everything in digital domain - nothing wrong. Guess what - the marketing departments interfere - and your contrast/brightness/color/tint/decoder settings are all screwed up so their products look different - which they equate with being "better". Even SMPTE was a screwup - switching color standards between SD/HD. Which means every source/display combo needs to have different video adjustments. That means mastering your calibration DVD's with your RGB filters - exactly the same problems you had in the analog component world. If digital had been properly implemented - these video adjustments need not even exist to be screwed with.

Third Problem. Screens are analog. They are painted substrates. Even the same make and model of screen will shift colors as the formula is fine tuned with running manufacturing changes and paint quality. I know that because I have eaten several customers screens when the neutral sample did not match the skewed product.



In my calibration review which is in process - you will see some of the panel grayscale settings are excellent (others are purely for marketing) - but even that not being perfect compromises color - which gets further screwed up with the color decoder - even over digital inputs. Now throw in lens iris, auto lamps/iris - which also shift grayscale - and you have your optics settings messing things up further.

Tweaking works better if you separate out those tunings for your sources and those tunings for your panel/screen - then just focus on what settings are left - and what they do.

So here is my settings contribution to this thread - that cappra said was fun with Finding Nemo -- even though it is not remotely calibrated.

Start with 'Power' mode
Crank contrast all the way down- adjust brightness to match your source.
Crank lens iris tight as it can get (-63 is insane -44 is watchable)
Crank Lamp A2 and Lamp IRIS auto on.
Crank up Gamma
Crank down Red Gamma, Crank up Blue Gamma.
Leave off all those silly autoblack, contrast, transient enhancements unless you want to go for a joyride.
Forgot Color Temp and RGB gains/offsets - extremely difficult to tune and track with the rest tweaked like this. Even for a PRO....


You now have blacks that will make Sony Ruby owners jealous and want to swap (after all the Pearl already devalued them :D)

I need help.

I was going to post several days ago and leave a cliff hanger ending but decided to conclude the story myself first. If it ended happily no need for a posting. But it did not end up that way so here it goes.


After reading the entire tweak thread I have concluded that members must include more information about the settngs they post. I am left guessing whether most posters used CC or Living or whatever for the base of the setting changes. Same for if L1 or L2 was used or if any other settings were changed within the player itself. But that is another story.

I tried setting after recommended setting only to have the whites and extreme blacks crushed when viewed through the DVE tests. Why would members post these settings if they were so flawed? I tried them in both DVD players with two different connections, component and HDMI. After mucho tweaking I was about to give up, (again) but decided to change players again and I could see blacker than black and the reverse gray ramp test was perfect through component. I switched back to the other player with HDMI the Z4 changed settings automatically to the previous settings and there they were also BTB and the ramps were perfect too!

That evening I watched with amazement as to how good the Z4 is, it was great!

Why did it all of a sudden work? That is the question that I would like answered, any suggestion no matter how wild will be investigated. Yesterday I anxiously turned on the system and hoped for the best only to be dissapointed. My component player was still O.K. but the HDMI player was back to the usual crushed whites and no BTB. Same settings as when it was turned off same settings in the player. How can this be?

Both players are connected directly to the Z4. I tried forever to recreate how the player responded to the switching of inputs but it did not work. I am working off of Rones living setting with the Z4 on L2 and the player set to RGB enhanced. I tried all possibilities previous and just this once I was rewarded with a truly super picture. How can it not display the same the next day.

Any ideas other than sending the Z4 back or that Aliens were invloved appreciated.

AVS/ISF/ELF test pattern DVD. $30 - $10 goes to ELF. Set your B&W levels yourself - nobody can give you those settings. See the link in the alliance ads.

But you already have the DVE - so why are you futzing with others settings and complaining about BTB/WTW levels? Their settings are not flawed for them with their sources and projector - but I am not sure why they post them when they are guaranteed not to work for anyone else.

Did you remember to save your settings in a user memory? It is possible the players are set for different output resolution/refresh - and it is just remembering the last setting applied to that but not saved when it resyncs?


You need HDMI L2 on to get BTB - what you need for your source depends on your source. Usually enhanced black means it crushes BTB and black is #0. So try the other source setting and see if it does BTB which means black is #16. Sometimes players source settings affect both component and HDMI and DVI - sometimes they are different controls for each output.

As far as Z4's brightness setting - it depends on not only the HDMI L2 setting - but the contrast setting and brightness/contrast depends on the RGB gain/offset settings. In addition to your source. This is why it is crucial to set it for yourself and not based on anyone else. And remember once properly calibrated you are not supposed to see BTB - it is supposed to blend in to the blackground without crushing the near black bars.

Hello Z4 owners,

Sorry to post this question on the tweak thread, but this seems to be the best way to get the Z4 owners as the audience.

I'm thinking of buying the z5 and wanted to see what is the max screen size z4 owners are using. Is anyone using a 120" or 106" HC grey screen (say a gain of 1.1) with the Z4? If so, how good is the brightness? Does the room have to be extremely dark for it to be viewable. I've already ordered the 120" screen but can change it to 106" (but don't want to go smaller than that).

I bought the panasonic ax100u (and hence ordered the 120" screen), but found it to be too noisy (resulting in grainy pictures) with certain SD dvds. Based on the reviews Z5 seems to be less noisy, so I'm seriously considering returning the panny and getting the Z5. But a bit worried about the brightness. Any input from the z4/z5 owners will greatly help me in making the decision.

thanks in advance....

I have a 106" screen (Dalite HCCV 1.1 gain) and brightness is just fine. Z5 has much better color out of the box from what I have read so color shouldn't be the issue that it can be on the Z4 in brighter modes. On the Z4 modes that have better color the brightness is still fine, although not as bright as the modes with poor color. My buddy has the same screen in 110 and it's fine as well. Not sure how it would handle 120. Z5 is supposed to be about 10% brighter as well.

For Z4 would say that is too big for any of the movie modes for the HC grey screens. You need a high gain screen that you are taking advantage of with lens/head positioning. For cappra with a similar screen but only 6' - Cinema mode is about right.

Of course if you have lamp up full and irises wide open it might work - but then you lose lamp life and contrast.

And of course the marketed modes would work - but then it is not calibrated.


The impression I get is the new Panny is much brighter - but unless these undergo a proper calibration review - you will never know which screen goes with which projector.

I have a 106" screen (Dalite HCCV 1.1 gain) and brightness is just fine. Z5 has much better color out of the box from what I have read so color shouldn't be the issue that it can be on the Z4 in brighter modes. On the Z4 modes that have better color the brightness is still fine, although not as bright as the modes with poor color. My buddy has the same screen in 110 and it's fine as well. Not sure how it would handle 120. Z5 is supposed to be about 10% brighter as well.

Thanks for the response. Looks like 120" would be a stretch and I'm better off going for the 106" screen. When you say brightness is fine with your 106" screen, is it so in the pure cinema mode too? Or do you have to watch in one of the brighter modes.

I have ordered the Elite electric screen (silvermax) which is a HC grey screen with 1.1 gain, so I'm hoping it should be similar to the HCCV in brightness.

It's fine in Creative Cinema and Pure Cinema(although I don't watch that mode much). Plenty of brightness although it's not what I'd call a super bright picture. So to explain, the picture in those modes is plenty bright for most people. If I showed a movie to anyone in those modes, it would look great. The issue then becomes that once you see how the bright modes look, (aside from the colors being off that is), you want that type of a bright picture, but with close to proper colors. Living mode does come close and it somewhere between the Cinema modes and the brightest modes. With a higher gain screen, you can get a brighter picture, but it's at the cost of contrast.

So for me, the cinema modes don't give quite the big punch I like only because I'm a picture snob :) and the other modes have crappy color! So Living is my compromise with better brightness and colors that aren't dead on, but fairly acceptable. I use the super bright modes for sports where I don't care that the color isn't too good.

Again, with Z5, they say the colors are far more accurate in many of the brighter modes than Z4, plus it's 10% brighter. I think you'd be fine with the 110 or the 106 (for sure the 106). I got the HCCV so that I'd have the best blacks possible. Purists feel that's the most important aspect of the picture. If you go with a higher gain material, you'll definitely get a brighter picture in the cinema modes, however the trade off is worse contrast. At that point, it's personal preference as to which is the better option. Z5 is supposed to have better blacks too but I'm guessing that the big difference between Z5 and Z4 is the better out of the box color. Otherwise it's probably very similar to Z4 with a few extras adding in.

Deezilz

How many hours on the lamp? New lamps always look great - I take lamp fade of 50% (the theoretical ANSI life) to account in my advice so that you will be in the range 8-16ftL. Lamps have exponential rather than linear decay - so you will be closer to 50% before you realize it. Non dedicated rooms would want it even brighter.

Oversizing the screen often leads to upgradeitis - when the real problem is the screen size/gain was not suited for a burned-in lamp. New Z5 projector looks great with the new lamp - burn it in - before long you are talking about how much brighter more colorful the new Z6 is!

ON/OFF Contrast remains the same with a brighter screen - of course blacks on a too dim screen will always be blacker. You could use a 25W light bulb in the thing then they would be really be black - of course whites would be nothing to speak of. Gain screens can actually benefit ANSI contrast if your room is not perfect.

Deezilz

How many hours on the lamp? New lamps always look great - I take lamp fade of 50% (the theoretical ANSI life) to account in my advice so that you will be in the range 8-16ftL. Lamps have exponential rather than linear decay - so you will be closer to 50% before you realize it. Non dedicated rooms would want it even brighter.

Oversizing the screen often leads to upgradeitis - when the real problem is the screen size/gain was not suited for a burned-in lamp. New Z5 projector looks great with the new lamp - burn it in - before long you are talking about how much brighter more colorful the new Z6 is!

ON/OFF Contrast remains the same with a brighter screen - of course blacks on a too dim screen will always be blacker. You could use a 25W light bulb in the thing then they would be really be black - of course whites would be nothing to speak of. Gain screens can actually benefit ANSI contrast if your room is not perfect.


Krasmuzik,

Are you saying that even a 106" 1.1 gain grey screen is too big for the z5 to properly illuminate? Just to give an idea of my expectations, till now I was using an Infocus X1 (< 500 hrs on the lamp) with a Da-lite 4:3 115" HCMW screen and though I did wish once in a while that it was brighter, it was not too much of a concern (of course I wouldn't want the picture to be dimmer than that). I'm more concerned about a noise-free smooth picture even with SD DVDs (with at least as much or a bit more brightness than the X1). I just wish I could get a demo of the Z5 before ordering it.

I was referring to Z4 - I have not done a calibration review of a Z5.

The Z4 cinema presets are same or worse brightness (depending on which one you pick - you have four choices which tradeoff brightness/contrast optics settings) as your X1 in film/video mode - a big drop from the marketed "power' mode with bad but bright colors. (similar to presentation on the X1).

I also would not run a X1 on your screen either - I reference to SMPTE cinema standards which is what I use in all my designed installs - and never had a "wish it was brighter" complaint even at end of lamp life since I target for the mid-life lamp - which actually occurs shortly after burn-in due to exponential decay.

Keep in mind 4:3 diag is bigger than the same widths 16:9 diag!

I was referring to Z4 - I have not done a calibration review of a Z5.

The Z4 cinema presets are same or worse brightness (depending on which one you pick - you have four choices which tradeoff brightness/contrast optics settings) as your X1 in film/video mode - a big drop from the marketed "power' mode with bad but bright colors. (similar to presentation on the X1).

I also would not run a X1 on your screen either - I reference to SMPTE cinema standards which is what I use in all my designed installs - and never had a "wish it was brighter" complaint even at end of lamp life since I target for the mid-life lamp - which actually occurs shortly after burn-in due to exponential decay.

Keep in mind 4:3 diag is bigger than the same widths 16:9 diag!

Thanks for your input. Yes I was referring to the "Film" mode of the X1 as my reference brightness. I have rarely ever used the brighter "Presentation" mode on it. Also for the Z5, I'm mainly interested in the brightness in the "pure cinema" mode or may be the "living" mode. What max size do you suggest with a 1.1 gain grey screen in those modes. My room can be made fairly dark during the night (when most of my viewing will be), but has some ambient light during the day. It also has light cream colored walls.

I do understand that 4:3 screen is bigger than a 16:9 screen with the same width. However, all the sizes I have mentioned are the diagonal measurements only.

I have finally hit the g-spot tonight. I have used Rone's as a base and then used AVIA to calibrate and then backed off the Red and Gain R and up the gamma a couple notches and I'm now in video nirvana. Also had to use the color management feature to take care of an orange reddish color on browns (like a dirt road) and also edited a couple fleshtones.

If anyone is interested I would be glad to post my settings. Once I found out that the Toshiba A1 pushed Red a TON I was finally able to achieve the best I believe this projector can look. Also found that the gamma needed to be raised prolly because of my screen material (HCCV). With HD-DVD and this projector calibrated to my liking it will be my PJ for the next 3 years or when the 1080p 3-chip DLP's come down to the 2K range.

Thanks to everyone here and especially AVS Forum for all the wealth of knowledge you have given me.

Hi,

i have a Z4 now for 2 Weeks and i´m very happy with that Projector, espacially after using now Eagles Settings, my Pana S52 via HDMI gives me a very nice picture with DVDs.

But i´m not happy with ne TV picture on my Sanyo, espacially not when i wath football!!

Can someone please post his oder her settings for football, i want to whatch Barca- Chelsea this evening but with a good quality and since now its not really that good...

For TV my Sanyo Z4 is connected via SCART->VGA from a Humax PR-C Fox decoder, if you know that one...

Thx a lot

greets moncheeba

Deezilz

How many hours on the lamp? New lamps always look great - I take lamp fade of 50% (the theoretical ANSI life) to account in my advice so that you will be in the range 8-16ftL. Lamps have exponential rather than linear decay - so you will be closer to 50% before you realize it. Non dedicated rooms would want it even brighter.

Oversizing the screen often leads to upgradeitis - when the real problem is the screen size/gain was not suited for a burned-in lamp. New Z5 projector looks great with the new lamp - burn it in - before long you are talking about how much brighter more colorful the new Z6 is!

ON/OFF Contrast remains the same with a brighter screen - of course blacks on a too dim screen will always be blacker. You could use a 25W light bulb in the thing then they would be really be black - of course whites would be nothing to speak of. Gain screens can actually benefit ANSI contrast if your room is not perfect.

I have 300 hours on the lamp and still I am happy with the brightness in Living. To be honest, I wan't thrilled with the brightness of Creative Cinema when I had 5 hours on the lamp! ;) ha! My room is a dedicated theater with 100% light control (ie no windows at all). So for my situation in total darkness, it's plenty bright! Even the cinema modes are bright enough...I just like Living 'cause it's a tad brighter in lew of perfect color. I'm not really getting upgradeitis just yet. I do love my Z4 still. I'm happy with the picture I get with ROne's Living tweaked to my room. There are a few deficiencies like the purple lips from time to time, but I'm going to work on it with DVE and try to get it as good as it can be. Otherwise, it's a great picture still. If I was going to upgrade, I'd get something like the IN76 instead of Z5. IN76 got fabulous reviews. But, alas, I can't afford to drop that type of money and really, it's not going to be night and day compared to my Z4 anyway. Too much money for too little improvement. I was talking to some of my 'expert' friends again about the HCCV screen and the Z4 and they still feel it's the best compromise of black level and brightness even for a total light controlled room. I guess they just feel black level is far more important than uber bright. As with everything, there's always a differing opinion and that's not to say one is right or one is wrong; just different opinions. With any 'budget' projector there's going to be compromises here and there. Each person just needs to figure out which compromises they are willing to make.

I I do love my Z4 still. I'm happy with the picture I get with ROne's Living tweaked to my room.


Hi,

can you post the settings from Rone maybe again, i dont know which of them to use, there were some posted in the thread at the beginning.

Would you prefer another setting for wtching football??

thx

I have finally hit the g-spot tonight. I have used Rone's as a base and then used AVIA to calibrate and then backed off the Red and Gain R and up the gamma a couple notches and I'm now in video nirvana. Also had to use the color management feature to take care of an orange reddish color on browns (like a dirt road) and also edited a couple fleshtones.

If anyone is interested I would be glad to post my settings. Once I found out that the Toshiba A1 pushed Red a TON I was finally able to achieve the best I believe this projector can look. Also found that the gamma needed to be raised prolly because of my screen material (HCCV). With HD-DVD and this projector calibrated to my liking it will be my PJ for the next 3 years or when the 1080p 3-chip DLP's come down to the 2K range.

Thanks to everyone here and especially AVS Forum for all the wealth of knowledge you have given me.

It would be great if you would post the settings. I've spent the last week trying to calibrate out the red push but to no avail. :)

Also, a question for everyone here...I'm still trying to figure out the L1/L2 setting. Now I know it's been mentioned that L2 is for PC and so on but it passes blacker than black in DVE and THX Optimizer whereas the L1 doesn't. I compared the two and the L2 setting has considerably better shadow detail and brightness while the L1 setting has better overall color vibrance (not as washed out as L2) and overall black level. I did also remember to change the L1/L2 setting each time I changed user settings to compare.

So is there any definitive conclusion as to what setting should be used for non-PC connections? I love the colors and black level in L1 but I lose a lot of shadow detail.

It would be great if you would post the settings. I've spent the last week trying to calibrate out the red push but to no avail. :)

I'm not sure how you have been trying to calibrate your set but you can very easily get rid of the red push by using the color management system.

Pause a dvd or hd cable box to a scene with the saturated red.

Go to Color Management and put the cursor on the red object.

Just reduce the red level by a click or two to your liking and save it to which ever or all your user settings.

Shelly

I'm not sure how you have been trying to calibrate your set but you can very easily get rid of the red push by using the color management system.

Pause a dvd or hd cable box to a scene with the saturated red.

Go to Color Management and put the cursor on the red object.

Just reduce the red level by a click or two to your liking and save it to which ever or all your user settings.

Shelly

I've used the color management to some success, but I'm still left with a pinkish colored red and strange looking flesh tones. I was able to correct the orange-red bias through my 8300HD but the red push in the HD-A1 is giving me some difficulty.

Start with a workable preset - such as CreativeCinema, PureCinema, or Living.

To calibrate red push you need the AVIA DVD with the RGB filter set.

Nobody's settings will work for any other - because even sources have their own color and tint controls - and maybe even their own red push - and each input requires different amounts of correction - even with a reference video generator. This is especially true of CMS because it requires grabbing colors from the source video.

First use the blue filter with the standard color bars (also called blue bars in the advanced section).

Get blue and white balanced with color, and magneta and cyan balanced with tint.

Now go into ColorManagement and load up your pallete with RGBCMY colors taken from the standard colorbars.

Again using the blue filter and blue bars pattern - you can fine tune blue&white with level (color) and magenta and cyan with phase (tint) .

Next use the red filter and red bars pattern - with this you balance red&white with level and magenta and yellow with phase.

Next use the green filter with the green bars pattern - with this you balance green&white with level and cyan and yellow with phase.

Notice the colors cross the filters - so go back and iterate. Realize that phase and level affect each color - which is why they are not named color and tint - so it takes a bit of practice to get the hang of how each color interacts with all the others. You are done when thru the RGB filters - all the color patches appear the same brightness.

Once you have the CMS loaded with colors no need to reselect them - this makes it easier to iterate.



Now go to AVIAs color decoder pattern with the RGB% bars - and double check the levels. If you think RGB also looks off - you can adjust by eye using the level and phase - but you really need a sensor to do this one right.

Make sure you save to a user preset as you go or you will eventually push the wrong button and lose your work!

Iterate again.

If you read my earlier posts you will see that CMS is not really a color decoder adjustment - it is a color replacement system. Red does not go all the way out to orange and crimson - so if you still see push after all this you have to find some orange and crimson colors on video and adjust those so they balance with the reds by eye.

Also if your source is also pushing - then you might be screwed and still have red push. In that case compromise the blue filter adjustment by reducing the color control so visually red push looks gone. The Toshiba HDDVD player over HDMI YCbCr seems to be on the suspect list in this regard depending on your firmware.


Now that your colors are tuned - you can now tune your grayscale. Make sure you do this at nite - first adjust brightness/contrast - and readjust when you are all done.

Color Temp is for getting overall grayscale balanced
RGB gains are for bright grayscale
RGB offset are for dark grayscale
RGB gamma are for mid grays

This can be complicated adjustment if any auto or enhancement features are on - so turn those off and live with the result you get when they are on.

Using the RGBCMY standard colorbars - adjust by eye so that CMY look right. Cyan is between Blue-Green, Magenta is between Red-Blue, and Yellow is between Green-Red.

Use the color temp and maybe the gains to get the colors right. Then throw up a grayscale pattern and use the gamma and offsets to get the tracking right.


If after all this you find you are still tweaking - time to send it to a PRO that knows how to do it - and I guarantee you will stop tweaking and start watching movies.

As with everything, there's always a differing opinion and that's not to say one is right or one is wrong; just different opinions.

There are also trained experts that know how to do things per standards as well as fixing broken things giving them much experience - with happy customers who finally realized what is right- and stopped tweaking as a result.

'Living' is like giving yourself a screen upgrade from 1.0 gain to 1.5-2.0 gain - that magically increases contrast as well. The down side is purple lips.

This is a result of red pushed video (even over HDMI RGB input!) combined with blue pushed grayscale. See my instructions just posted on how to fix that. It cannot be fixed with one set of controls or another - it is a combination of errors causing the problem. You have to use test patterns to tweak it out.

ricky

I used HDMI L2 to get BTB passed - which you then adjust brightness to make BTB match the blackground. HDMI defaults to Video levels with this headroom/footroom in the digital signal. PC levels are when B&W are full range and you cannot get BTB or WTW. Video levels were designed so that BTB and WTW use the full range signal - which you should be calibrating out so that that B&W use the full range of your display. Even though you calibrate out BTB and WTW - it helps the digital signal processing if the signal itself has them.

There are also trained experts that know how to do things per standards as well as fixing broken things giving them much experience - with happy customers who finally realized what is right- and stopped tweaking as a result.

'Living' is like giving yourself a screen upgrade from 1.0 gain to 1.5-2.0 gain - that magically increases contrast as well. The down side is purple lips.

This is a result of red pushed video (even over HDMI RGB input!) combined with blue pushed grayscale. See my instructions just posted on how to fix that. It cannot be fixed with one set of controls or another - it is a combination of errors causing the problem. You have to use test patterns to tweak it out.

Thanks!! I'll give it a whirl in the next few days and let you know the results. Hopefully less purple lips and eyelids! :)

Kras, great post -- many thanks!

HELP!
I just got my Z4 today. It looks great.
But, the shutter door is not sliding closed when I turn it off. I tried the shutter demo in the menu and I hear a motor running, but the door doesn't move.
Is there a set screw or something I need to remove?
Any ideas?
Thanks,
Joe

ricky

I used HDMI L2 to get BTB passed - which you then adjust brightness to make BTB match the blackground. HDMI defaults to Video levels with this headroom/footroom in the digital signal. PC levels are when B&W are full range and you cannot get BTB or WTW. Video levels were designed so that BTB and WTW use the full range signal - which you should be calibrating out so that that B&W use the full range of your display. Even though you calibrate out BTB and WTW - it helps the digital signal processing if the signal itself has them.

Thanks for the help with this and the red push krasmuzik, I'll try my Avia disc out tonight. :)

For Halloween last night I brought my Z4 into my double garage, set it for rear projection, and secured white bed sheets to the inner frame of the garage door opening (with the door up) for a huge outdoor rear projection system.

With the projector set to "Powerful" I was projecting a 6' x 10.5' foot image, which was very bright. I was showing Corpse Bride, and fighting a bit of ambient light, so using Powerful was perfect. A decent shelf system with good speakers provided the sound, and was hidden behind the "screen".

The image was surprisingly good, and the wow factor was huge. I had a crowd all night!

Calibration review is up on my website....

What's the URL to your website?

links are not allowed other than in member profiles...

OK. I know I've seen links posted many times to news articles and reviews etc... You can't post anything that advertises something you are selling or some service, but there have been many links to reviews etc... Not sure why those were allowed unless they all just slipped through. I was always under the impression that these types of links were allowed.

OK. I know I've seen links posted many times to news articles and reviews etc... You can't post anything that advertises something you are selling or some service, but there have been many links to reviews etc... Not sure why those were allowed unless they all just slipped through. I was always under the impression that these types of links were allowed.

If it were a purely informational review I'm sure the link would be allowed but seeing as he sells the calibration service he's doing the right thing. Google is your friend, I found the URL right away....

I found it in his profile. I didn't know the 'review' was attached to a website for services or that the review was really showing what they can do for you. I agree it was the right thing not to post that website...he had said links weren't allowed, which they are if you aren't selling something, so that's what the confusion was for me.

Ironically, I couldn't find it via Google previously and I'm a big google internet searcher myself! :) I used KRAS Muzik which does not return the link in the first page. I see now it returns it on the 2nd. I gave up too soon I guess. ;)

I should check with AVS - but as I understand it no links to anything for sell - even services that AVS does not provide. ( I do not sell gear online). And yes I do mention in the review if the projector is worth calibrating or not with a link to my services - read my IN72 review and see I say don't bother wasting money on calibration. The reviews I do for FREE - I spent 40hrs reviewing cappras box of which only the 4hrs of calibration was paid for (which he did mention he was getting it professionally calibrated). I generally do give out free how to calibrate advice with AVIA as well as supporting DIY calibrators here and in the calibration forum if they get stuck. It's called kharma - helping people online for free - some people will come to value my services - or even other mail-in or local ISF calibrators. I actually created the review site because I get a lot of PM from people asking what to buy even though they know I am not an online reseller - but they respect my calibrators opinion so I started sending them my calibration reviews (which I started doing this format for local customers couple years ago instead of using ColorFacts charts everyone else uses).

Art at Projector Reviews is a review site laden with ads for projector resellers - even embedded in the review itself. So is ProjectorCentral which is mostly setup as a dealer referral click to buy site. Audioholics projector reviews are sponsored by specific resellers that provided the review unit (and they sponsor AVS with their own special link section here - as a competing forum they are not allowed links otherwise) Cine4home.de is a network of German dealers that sell filter tweaked calibrated projectors. If you look closely at those other review threads - the people involved with the sites are not allowed to link to those reviews - though readers can and do. Art will mention what he is working on and what reviews are coming, gregr at WSR does the same and even has friday night chats here to discuss the review, if the German guys are working on a review they hang out in the tweak threads as well. So I will keep it to that - some reviews I may never even mention on AVS - only those on my opt-in mailing list will know about them.

My reviews will only come from calibration/installation customers - so you know they will be nothing more than the objective calibration results the customer paid for - the complete mode review is just an extra benefit as long as they are willing to allow the time it takes. No tweaked boxes from marketing reps, no dealers/manufacturers telling me which marketing points I have to hit in the review.

So what do I have in my .sig? I do have my SP7210 review link (which I need to take down as it will soon be obsolete - already it is archived) - but I published that on AVS not on my site. I always have a FS ad for personal gear linked which is archived - I just renewed my club membership so I could relist some stuff (none of it is related to biz!) but they seem happy to take my PayPal money but not give me the membership. And 'contrast at ambient' is a joint post with darinp2 regarding some mutual testing (not together - just coincidently same time). Only thing biz related is my biz name with no link - and I think people deserve to know if the person posting is in the biz - though I know several on here who are not identifying themselves and you have no clue - and I have and will again 'out' them if it looks like they are pretending to be an enthusiast with nothing to sell (which anyone who follows my posts knows I don't hide behind that)

What I measure is what I measure - it is all objective - and none of my reviews will ever be subjective - if I can't measure it I will not mention it. I think the Sanyo has a nice lens for it's price level - I could not hear the fan in my office, and I was pleased with the absence of LCD panel defects - but none of that is measurable and could be considered as subjective bias - so I don't mention it. I also see no point in screenshots of menus like others do - since all that info is in downloadable manuals.

And no I am not the genius at optimizing the site for search engines - but anytime you want to look somebody up on AVS that is what the profile is for - you would be amazed what people disclose in their profiles - some even use their real names, give their town, and have a spendy gear list. Good thing most meth addicts that would steal their stuff are not internet enabled! What really annoys me most on this site are those that are in the biz - who do not disclose such in their profile. I personally think this site is better if more PRO's are involved (how many other calibrators hang out in this forum?) - but it needs to be discretely disclosed.

BTW I just googled my biz - I had no idea google was archiving AVS forum posts! I see this also hit a studio acoustics forum I lurk on and rarely post, as well as a MatLab forum (math software). This is the only HT forum I hang out on - I have been on here- wow- since last century :D

Hi guys,

I just received my Z4 today and would appreciate your suggestions on how to do a little "quality control". I don't have a screen yet, so I'll be projecting onto a light brownish wall for now. I believe I can rent the Digital Video Essentials DVD from a local video store tomorrow. What are the test patterns I should pay attention to? At this point I don't want to calibrate the projector, just test the quality. I only had a chance to play with it for 30 minutes tonight, but I see a slight red coloration on the left edge of the screen. Is this normal, or should it be perfectly the same throughout the screen?

This is my first projector, so I'd appreciate some pointers. I did try searching the forums, but I don't even know the proper terminology to search for those keywords.

I should mention that the source is HTPC, and I have to use almost full zoom because the throw distance is very small (very small size room).

Thank you

You might want to buy DisplayMate - it has a bunch of HTPC patterns for checking out convergence, uniformity etc. Just be aware your wall has never had this many lumens shining on it - so move the projector just to make sure it is not paint splotches.

http://www.displaymate.com/infodmwv.html

Thanks for the tips, Krasmuzik. I will move the image to another wall, and I'll try to take pictures that explain what I'm seeing much better than words.

I should check with AVS - but as I understand it no links to anything for sell - even services that AVS does not provide. ( I do not sell gear online). And yes I do mention in the review if the projector is worth calibrating or not with a link to my services - read my IN72 review and see I say don't bother wasting money on calibration. The reviews I do for FREE - I spent 40hrs reviewing cappras box of which only the 4hrs of calibration was paid for (which he did mention he was getting it professionally calibrated)....(snip)

Thanks Krasmuzik for your efforts...I didn't mean to insult you in any way so sorry if that was the case. Sometimes I post as I'm thinking out loud and it can come off wrong. You are correct that you can't post links to sites with services or product for sale...as I said I didn't know that's what your site was about since I hadn't been to it. You can post 'regular' industry reviews and news articles etc... thus I didn't know why you didn't post a link to your review. Now I know. No reason to defend what you do as it's obviously a great service and nothing you've done here has been off base. Didn't mean to imply that your reviews are all fishing for sales for your services. Hope you understand that wasn't what I was trying to say at all.

It's all good.

Dweezilz

You guys are friendlier than some other tweak threads for which reviews on those projectors will only go to the email list :D Some people cannot handle objective truth!

I read it now as you just were confused. Of course I would like to make it easy with a big bold click to buy calibration link (with the "review" as a sidenote) - but I hate SPAM just as much as the next guy! Of course some "review" sites are that very thing "This projector is the greatest thing all year - breaks new price/performance barriers - CLICK TO BUY!"

But I think we could certainly discuss the review here if anyone has any questions. Make sure you read the review format as my charts are different than what you are used to. Easy to understand for the novice as it objectively reflects what they see - but lots of depth in there once you start calibrating.

Did you fix your purple lips yet?

BTW if I recommended the AVS/ISF/Monster promotion for ELF in this thread - I have to retract that. They do not have a pattern for tint -saying most TV's get it right leave it alone. It is a different DVD - no test patterns - just models dressed in white and black playing pool. My wife finally realized why she needs to have things set right. They could have done a tint pattern using the balls and say make the #1 ball appear yellow - they have that shot for getting aspect right. The Z4 tint is screwed up - so stick to the AVIA.

Hi,

I got the DisplayMate software and looked at the test patterns. Color difference from left to right doesn't appear as bad as it looked originally, yet is still noticeable on white or black screen (see attached).

However, I found a problem with misconvergence (if that's the correct term). As can be seen from the screenshots, left side is almost perfect, but the right side is off. The pics are blurry mostly because I didn't use a tripod. Not sure if this misconvergence also causes focus problems or not, but with no lens shift right side appears slightly out of focus. With full lens shift to the left it gets much better and left side stays almost the same sharp. With full lens shift to the right the right side becomes extremely bad. I would expect that it should be best with no lens shift but it seems that central position isn't as good as full left shift.

Of course, it's not easy to spot this problem during a movie, but I can see the difference in text sharpness from left edge to right edge.

From what you can see on the pictures, is this within norm, or should I request an exchange?

Thank you.

Judging by the pics and what you have told us, I think an exchange is in order. I have had the Z4 since Sept and have seen no misconvergence, panel misalignment or focus problems with the lens shift at full left or right. These problems seem to be eliminated from the majority of the Z4's, so chances are the replacement will be ok.

It's a bit hard to tell because the picture is so blurry, but that looks really bad. How many pixels would you say they are off? Lense shift shouldn't cause that large of a misconvergence I don't think.

Keep in mind that misconvergence is acceptable (according to Sanyo) within a few pixels however and they will not exchange unless it's outside of some specified tolerance. My Z4 has the red convergence off by 1 pixel and the blue off by 1 pixel near the edges (about 10 inches from both sides). It certainly doesn't look like yours with 3 clearly separated lines though if I'm seeing that correctly. I only use about 8 inches of lense shift down and about 5 inches to the left. It's the same dead on as well with no shift.

If I step back even 3 or 4 feet from the screen, I can no longer see the misconvergence at all. I have never noticed one side of the screen being out of focus and the other side in focus, so in your case, I'm agreeing with Cappra that you very well might have a case to get a new Z4. Your top left looks pretty much how mine looks on both sides with about one pixel misconvergence. Your right side looks extremely bad. Call and see what they say. Heck maybe they'd exchange my Z4 for one with perfect convergence! :)

Dweezilz


Did you fix your purple lips yet?



Haven't tried yet. What is the best pattern to use to fix this and which color adjustments do I need to use? Just red, green, and blue or the other color adjustments like red gamma, gain, offset?

BTW, I've had AVIA for years but wanted to pick up a copy of DVE which I did. Man is that DVD a pain in the rear end! Menus are horrible to navigate and they don't really explain each pattern like they do in AVIA. What a waste of money unless I'm missing something!

cappra, Dweezels, thanks. It's just my luck :( I've sent a request to the reseller because I think this is a DOA case (got the unit on Thursday). I'll grab a tripod and try to make better pictures tonight in case they claim this is normal. Especially I'll take one with extreme right shift.

For RGB color filters use

Red Bars
Blue Bars
Green Bars

in the advanced video patterns I think under color or specialty. AVIA PRO and my Accupel have CMYRGB checkerboard I use that is better than colorbars - but that gear cost more than your projector....

For adjusting the greyscale colortemp (or gains if needed to finetune) use the standard color bars pattern and look at secondaries. This trick avoids white adaptation and relies on the color/tint/decoder being corrected first - as well as you knowing what video secondaries are supposed to look like!

Greyscale any of the steps patterns - this is to get RGB gamma, offsets to track down from white.

air2air2

I used the displaymate to test cappra's - and there were no problems misconvergence, uniformity, shading, banding, or any dead pixels. Of course it will depend on the vendor what they consider a problem - one customer with a Sony Ruby had all of those problems combined - but it was considered in spec. If they had to screen for problems it gets more expensive - so hope your vendor swaps it.

Of course by the time a calibrator looks at it after burn-in - probably too late to swap anyways - so hopefully DisplayMate is worth the investment in saving you from lemons! DisplayMate equipped customers are a vendors worst fear!

When I purchased my Z4, the vendor said that I could return the unit with no questions asked if the lamp had no more than ten hours time on it. I must have spent at least two hours checking and looking for convergence, banding, extreme lens shift problems and dead pixels.(as best I could) I remember when the the Z2 came out and they had all kinds of problems with vertical banding that was driving owners crazy! I don't see these problems with the Z4 as much.

I made more pics that show how bad it is. I also noticed a problem throught the entire screen. As you can see on the left01.jpg, the second vertical line appears as two lines. Every third line looks like the first, but the other two have duplicates of different colors on one of the sides. I'm no specialist but I don't think that's good. On my laptop all lines appear perfectly white and single.

Two other pics show the right side with full lens shift to the right. :( I hope the vendor can't argue that this is normal. I have to wait until Monday for his reply. I only have three hours on the lamp. Didn't even try to watch any movies.

Unit must have been assembled on a monday! that looks bad! Don't think you will have much of a problem exchanging it for another one, especially with that few hours on the lamp. Hold firm on this one!..

Yeah that looks horrid. BTW, what test pattern is that one with the colors lined up (or in your case not lined up!)? I'd like to throw that up on mine for comparison.

http://www.displaymate.com/

Start with a workable preset - such as CreativeCinema, PureCinema, or Living.

To calibrate red push you need the AVIA DVD with the RGB filter set.

First use the blue filter with the standard color bars (also called blue bars in the advanced section).

Get blue and white balanced with color, and magneta and cyan balanced with tint.

Now go into ColorManagement and load up your pallete with RGBCMY colors taken from the standard colorbars.

Again using the blue filter and blue bars pattern - you can fine tune blue&white with level (color) and magenta and cyan with phase (tint) .



Well I finally gave it a shot and I believe I have the purple lips and eyelids tempered to a point where it's looks much much better. Still not perfect, but better. I have a quesiton from what you are saying above. I get the part about the blue bar pattern in AVIA and the filter and using color and tint for blue. What I'm unsure about is after loading up color management with RGBCMY. I did this and saved it to my user preset, but I'm not sure what pattern to use on the second round of blue adjustment or what I'm adjusting to. You said to use level and phase so I'm assuming you mean inside color management, however the blue bar pattern has those blinking boxes that I use to match to the background and that's not posible to use since it freezes in CMS. I tried my best to make the color bands on the sides match with level and the middle one's with phase, though so I was thinking that's what you were saying to do. Another question I have is, what colors in CMS am I supposed to be adjusting? I didn't know for blue if I'm suppsed to use just blue in CMS or the other colors such as CMY. Same with Red and Green. Use just those colors or the others too. For many of the colors such as red and green, adjusting phase does nothing.

As for the gray scale steps patter, I can see that RBG gamma tints it red, blue, green, but obviously you need equipment like yours or a Spyder to properly adjust it. Otherwise it's just a pure guess by eye sight. That's where a pro service comes into play!!

Anyway, thanks for the tips!! Let me know what I'm missing from above.

Deewzilz

I hate the blinking bar pattern anyways - on most DVD players you get chroma/luma transitions outlining the blinking edges - makes it really hard to see the blue brightness.

I usually try to pause it unblinked - but I think the one actually called BlueBars does not blink - I would need to look at it to be sure. Adjusting phase on the RGB color pics is a gamut adjustment - you need a fine eye or sensor gear to fix. You should be able to tune the orange out of the reds this way using phase - but green did not change. Just adjust the levels for RGB, and the phase and level for CMY when you are using the RGB filters.

color/tint is the master control that affects all of RGBCMY - level/phase is individual control. So if Blue/Cyan/Magenta was not perfected with the master control - you can use the same pattern to fine tune with individual controls. It is the same idea when you move to RedBars and GreenBars with red and green filters - just different patterns different colors - one pair of colors responds more to level , the other responds more to phase - play around until you see what the controls do as you swing them and try to make them look same with the filter. Since you have not done the grayscale yet - don't try to make color look right without the filters - always look thru the filters when you use the CMS.

The BlueBars is for CMWB adjust, RedBars for MRYW adjust, GreenBars for YGCW adjust. So you have to go back and forth between phase/level and pattern/filters to find the compromises. It is much easier with a colorcheckboard pattern - but AVIA has it not!

Yes that takes a little bit of experience to get the hang of! Being a PRO means you got it down good enough that people pay you to do it rather than try to figure it out!

Yes grayscale is not easy by eye to do gamma/bias :D I just try to make it easier by adjusting the RGB gains using the CMY colorbars rather than the bright white like others do. I do not calibrate this way - but I do load up colorbars to show customers how their grayscale is off - and they always go but you have not looked at the grayscale yet :D And I respond does yellow look limish or bananaish or orangish to you?

Because the Z4 grayscale is not bad to begin with - it will be harder to tune by eye. But it is the slight error in grayscale that causes larger errors in secondary colors, combine that with color decoder/gamut errors on primaries and secondaries it makes the color all wrong. So to get the colors perfected - you have to get the grayscale and CMS RGBCMY test patterns both right.

I have finally hit the g-spot tonight. I have used Rone's as a base and then used AVIA to calibrate and then backed off the Red and Gain R and up the gamma a couple notches and I'm now in video nirvana. Also had to use the color management feature to take care of an orange reddish color on browns (like a dirt road) and also edited a couple fleshtones.

If anyone is interested I would be glad to post my settings. Once I found out that the Toshiba A1 pushed Red a TON I was finally able to achieve the best I believe this projector can look. Also found that the gamma needed to be raised prolly because of my screen material (HCCV). With HD-DVD and this projector calibrated to my liking it will be my PJ for the next 3 years or when the 1080p 3-chip DLP's come down to the 2K range.

Thanks to everyone here and especially AVS Forum for all the wealth of knowledge you have given me.

Paradigm - Please post your settings! Thanks!

This bump is for the poor fellow who could not find this Z4 tweak thread!

seplant - i will post my settings in a day or two. sorry for the late reply i hadn't visited this thread in a while and forgot that I said I would post them. the main reason is that I have tweaked it all yet again but I must say I'm happy with my settings.

seplant -

After weeks and weeks of tweaking my display I still end up liking Rone's living settings with a few adjustments. Keep in mind that I have a grey screen (hccv) so the adjustments I made prolly have something to do with it.

If you have the same setup as me (A1 player hooked via HDMI and HCCV screen) then try the following adjustments to Rones Living settings. Make sure you change the HDMI to L2. I had liked the settings all along but the dark scenes were too dark.

Gamma: instead of -1 make it +3. This was a better way to get more detail in dark scenes instead of raising the brightness which flushes out the rest of the picture.

Color: raised it one notch to plus +4. this is prolly just preference.

Sharpness: he has it at -6. I put mine back to the default of 0.

Color Management: The most important thing you will need to do. Look for a very bright outdoor scene with a closeup of someone's face. It will be VERY orangish. Go to the advanced settings and select color management. Move the cursor to the orange area. You will then have 3 things to change. On the first setting move it all the way over to the right. This takes out most of the orange. Leave the middle setting alone. The third setting is gamma move it all the way over to the left. Make sure you SAVE after adjusting the color management.

Make sure that all the enhancements are turned off.

I originally liked creative settings (rone's) for its color saturation and image pop but the daylight scenes were just way too dim. My setup has never looked better using these living settings.

Hope this helps.

paradigm

Gamma is a preference that will depend on your room - however realize increasing black detail comes at the expense of flattening the image. The DVD was mastered with a higher gamma so that things that should be nearly hidden in shadows - are nearly hidden in shadows. But if your screen too big and thus too dim for an ambient room and wiping out shadow detail - then you do want to increase this control to lower gamma. Generally that is an indication that the room setup can be tweaked when that is needed!

You are correct there really is only one setting for brightness - on the test pattern DVDs it is when BTB appears blended with the blackground and you can just barely see the near black bars.


Color control is something that you may think is a preference - but that is just because you do not know how to see what you are missing. Get any of the calibration DVD with the blue filters (even THX pattern will work - just send in for the nearly free glasses). Look at your blue and white with your filters - and you will realize that your blue is glowing brighter than it should be. Compare to real life and you start realizing the same thing with all the colors. A great scene for this is ending chapter of SeaBiscuit - excellent natural colors of horses and faces combined with the lively colors of the silk jerseys. This clip will look cartoony when color is too high.

Sharpness - even a basic test pattern DVD will show the flaws with this at default. The ISF/Monster is a good one as it uses pool sticks to demonstrate that edges ring - they become outlined. Look at the SeaBiscuit ending chapter again - look at the grills of the cars she is standing on. There will be no detail because it is obscured by ringing.

For color management make sure to pick a Red color - then see if you need to pick an orange -Red should go far enough to impact faces.

All of the above will be dependent on your sources - which is why you need the test pattern DVDs to adjust them.

Yeah, increasing gamma does flatten the image as you've said. If I watch a dark movie like unforgiven then I will raise the gamma. If I'm watching something newer like king kong I make a compromise and drop the gamma down a couple notches because I want the image to pop.

As for any of my living settings from Rone especially color saturation they aren't even close to what AVIA is but yet his settings look way better. When using Avia my brightness is way to low and I can't see any details in dark scenes. And when using the blue filter for color/tint it tells me to increase color up to +15 for crying out loud! When watching a movie the colors are way over saturated and the dark scenese are just way too dark. I know I'm using the disc right, I've been using it since it came out in the late 90's. Any reason why Avia seems so wrong?

I would have the projector professional calibrated but its such a cheap projector that I'm not sure it would be worth it because I'm one to upgrade every couple of years.

I'm pretty happy with the current image i'm getting. Just wish it was a brighter image and that I could get more detail out of the dark scenes without flatenning the image.

Maybe your AVIA filters are faded and you need to buy a new set? In the calibration forum they discuss replacements for a few bucks. THX is probably the cheapest for glasses.

Something is certainly wrong if results are obviously off with AVIA I doubt color needs to be that high - I think it ended up back down to 0 with the test generator - YMMV. Some of the presets are goosing it on purpose. Maybe your source has color set wrong - check if it has adjustment memories.


Most people that have had calibrations done factor it into their purchase price - it becomes a requirement from then on. Maybe you pay 10% more but you get more than that out of it! Obviously a mail-in requires a final AVIA tune-up - and getting in a local is more expensive - but that would be the only way to make sure you had it right.

You might try the ISF/Monster DVD - I liked its black tux pattern for black levels -. And they use sunburnt and newyork pale models for getting color right that was rather clever.

I suspect your black levels issue might just be a too large screen or too low gain screen - it is not that bright in the cinema modes. Most people have said they like the Sanyo for it's black detail - if you look close in my review you see the dark blacks are bumped up a bit in the gamma curves.

I see you have the HCCV - cappra's Misty Evening paint job is probably similar - and I recommended he stick to his existing 6' widescreen. Try zooming down for a movie or so and see if that makes a difference. Also HCCV is angular reflective - so if you don't have the projector ceiling mounted you are not taking advantage of the gain surface.

PJ is in a dedicated theater room and is ceiling mounted. Yeah, maybe my filters are bad. They are just the strips that came with AVIA. My screen is 92" I think that is a modest size for this PJ. I think its a 1.1 gain but not sure. Its funny when I have people over for a movie they are not distracted by the same things I am. I wish I didn't have an eye for this stuff sometimes!

The next PJ I get will probably be a 3-chip DLP and 1080p whenever prices fall below $3K. Then I will probably get calibration done on that one. Thats probably a good 2 years away however the new Mitsibushi can be had for the mid 3's online so maybe sooner than later.

Hey, for those of you with Toshiba HD DVD players, do you use 1080i or 720p output from the player? I know 720p output was broken before 2.0 firmware which fixed it...but how does the Z4 handle 1080i? Is it true it scales it to 1920x540 before scaling to 1280x720?

I have been going back and forth, and the two outputs look basically the same to me but you can't exactly do a quick A/Bing as it makes you stop playback when you adjust the setting. Since they look the same to me I know I shouldn't be too concerned but without A/Bing there might be a small difference that you couldn't see otherwise....and we all want the best picture possible. ;)

kami -

On my display i felt the 720p setting was softer than the 1080i. Not by much as you say but the extra pixels made a difference for me in clarity and I was shocked. I thought for sure I was going to be using 720p but after a/b'ing it I haven't looked back. I use 1080i. Let me know if you find this to be true.

seplant -

After weeks and weeks of tweaking my display I still end up liking Rone's living settings with a few adjustments. Keep in mind that I have a grey screen (hccv) so the adjustments I made prolly have something to do with it.



I have the same screen and have the same results as you. Rone's living with a bit of tweaking is best for me too. I moved Gamma to -3 and sharpness to -1 so basically the same. Been using this setup for nearly 9 months. I had done the CMS tweaking as you did too but still wound up with purple lips originally. I've toned that down quite a bit using krasmuzik's recommendations and loading up the CMS with the 5 colors. Purple lips are nearly gone and things are looking as good as I can get them. Only better step would be a pro setup.

Maybe I have a problem.

This relates to a previous projector I owned the HS-20 by SONY. It had a problem on startup where the start up screen was just about invisible, so much so I was not aware there was one. One time the unit was accidentally powered off and had to be restarted and I was shocked to see a colorfull start up screen. Many letters and trips and etc .,etc., and the unit had a power supply replacement as this was not normal operation.

To present day, I accidentally powered off the Z4 and had to turn it right back on and was suprised to see a colorfull start up screen complete with a countdown timer! I could barely ever make this out never mind the digits counting down.

Question, How are other Z4's in regards to the start up screen? Is it bright and legible or dull and almost not there on initial start up? Has anyone noticed this difference in brightness if it has to be restarted? I am hoping that this is a normal occurance.

Hey guys, I know this is my first post but I've searched all over the forums for an answer to my question. I just moved from the Z1 to Z4, and have been blown away by the picture quality. Simply stunning. I have tweaked it with eagles4 setting, then used DVE to finalize to make it look nearly perfect.

My problem is that on both the HDMI as well as composite (to run the Wii until the component cables come in) inputs, I have this odd rainbow effect on my screen. It is not like the DLP one, but it is about a dozen lines of rainbows going horizontally across the entire screen. This can be best seen during bright/white shots. It is definitely coming from the projector and not something to do with the screen itself. Any ideas? It doesn't ruin the experience, but other people can definitely see this on the screen as well, so it is something I want to fix. I might try to take some pics of it later tonight, but I don't know if it will show up or not on the picture since they're fairly faint, but can still be seen by the eye.

Maybe I have a problem.

This relates to a previous projector I owned the HS-20 by SONY. It had a problem on startup where the start up screen was just about invisible, so much so I was not aware there was one. One time the unit was accidentally powered off and had to be restarted and I was shocked to see a colorfull start up screen. Many letters and trips and etc .,etc., and the unit had a power supply replacement as this was not normal operation.

To present day, I accidentally powered off the Z4 and had to turn it right back on and was suprised to see a colorfull start up screen complete with a countdown timer! I could barely ever make this out never mind the digits counting down.

Question, How are other Z4's in regards to the start up screen? Is it bright and legible or dull and almost not there on initial start up? Has anyone noticed this difference in brightness if it has to be restarted? I am hoping that this is a normal occurance.


This is the Sanyo "Save the lamp" mode of startup. To extend the life of your high pressure halide projection lamp, Sanyo has cleverly designed a very slow turn-on mode so that the shock effect of full voltage (and wattage) is not applied to cold electrodes--but instead, warmed slowly to full brilliance.

This also means that you do not have to worry about short operating times. You can turn off if you are not viewing for an hour and turn back on without most of the wear out factor that would occur if you did not have the slow warmup mode.

:) Believe me--you do NOT want a bright colorful startup screen.

gil

Thanks so much for the reply Gil. You are always in the know.

It was just so similar in nature to the problem I had before I am glad that this is now a non issue with this machine. Thats progress!

I wonder if what I was told before still is valid when that every time the projector is powered up no matter for how long 7 hours is lost from lamp life. Just the act of powereing up causes the loss. Maybe this is not the case with the Z4!

I've never heard that one before about the 7 hours. I'm guessing that's definately not the case with the Z4. If so, that means if the average life of the lamp is 2000 hours, then you can only turn it on 286 times and you would pass that 2000 just by all the power ups! That just can't be. If you turned it on once a day, it would only last 40 weeks on average if that was true. No way is that possible 'cause if you add in all the actual hours of use (I'm at about 320 in about 11 months which is probably low for most) you'd have a lamp that would last maybe 6 - 10 months.

Anyway, my startup is exactly the same as you described. With any light on, I can barely see the image until about 5 seconds left in the count. If the room is pitch black I can start to see the full image at about 10-15 seconds (although I can faintly see it from the start) and it's not full brightness yet even at close to 0.

Infocus engineer says cold lamp strikes are a 2hr life hit. Most of those who have exceeded rated hours use it as a TV all day. Their startup screen is a delayed jump to full bright.

Yeah I've heard that cold lamp strikes are about 2 hours as well. So are you saying that you think even with the Z4's slow warmup, it's still a 2 hour hit per turn on? Not that we can do anything about it, but I was figuring with the slow warmup it was negligable and no where close to 2 hours. I had always thought that the 2 hour hit on the Z4 was only from turning it on then off quickly, not with each normal power on. It's possible Sanyo might answer the question for us if someone asks them and gets a hold of the right person to answer.

OK, I've exhausted my search, but I am looking for a number that was posted many months ago to obtain the Sanyo free bulb and screen status. I submitted after purchasing and got the B.S. response: "You did not include a valid serial number (I certainly did) and after sending in proof again I have received neither the screen nor the bulb (it's been about 4 months now).

Does anyone have that number to call? Or does anyone know about the status of supplies for this incentive program?
Thanks for your help!

Has anyone posted calibration settings for a DVD player (mine is the Sony NS75H) to a Z4 via HDMI L1 on Living settings? Way way back ROne posted his but they were for HDMI L2 being fed from an HTPC. As I understand it HDMI L1 is the video setting that is supposed to be used for DVD players and such and the L2 is for PC Level equipment.

Eagles4 posted his HDMI settings but they were for Creative Cinema not Living. I'm still scrambling for the best picture (aren't we all ;)) and am hoping someone has done this combo already and would be willing to share their settings.

1.2 gain white 106" screen or 1.8 gain gray 106" with z4?

Itsdon

I am pretty sure I used HDMI L2 to get BlackerThanBlack to show with the Video levels. But brightness/contrast adjustments you need a test pattern DVD - as your source usually has it's own adjustments for this.

It's funny about video vs. pc levels. Seems everyone has a different opinion as to which should be used, L1 or L2 and what devices require one or the other. I wish someone had a definative answer but we seem to flip flop back and forth on the subject. I can't recall who it was, but another AVS super veteran dropped in on this thread for one or two posts many many months ago and basically said to use L1 for stand alone DVD player because they are calibrated to video levels (reference black is at 16), not PC levels. He also said that most software DVD players like TheaterTek and MCE are also calibrated to video levels or L1. I do know that when I used any L2 setup including ROne's with my DVB318 player, it looked horrible with a white haze and washed out colors. When I switched to L1, poof, it was great (although a bit too dark). Same with my MCE PC. I'm going on a google mission today and try to really figure out what the deal is. I wish I could find a reliable website that really explains it in full detail.

update - here are some posts on AVS about setting up a HTPC for these levels. Unfortunately nothing about a DVD player, however, after reading it, the more convinced I am that L1 or RGBStudio levels is the proper setting. It seems that even for software dvd that's the case, although the thread is pretty confusing and I only quickly breezed through it.

Levels Thread #1 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5386113&&#post5386113)

Levels Thread #2 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=523614)

I found this in a review for a Denon DVD player. It gives us a bit of info for what to use for DVD players. I think the key is that DVD video is usually tuned to RGBStudio levels thus it seems appropriate to use L1. If your DVD player can be set to PC levels (enhanced black etc...), then L2 would work, however, why would you do this if the people who engineered the DVD used Studio levels for black/white? Here's what the Denon review said:

The video output can be selected in the setup menu for either PC RGB levels or Studio RGB levels. Unless your display is set up for PC RGB levels, we always recommend using the studio RGB output which allows for below-black and above-white information.

UPDATE #3:

OK, found this FAQ info on AVS and I think it basically supports the thought that using L1 is correct, not L2 for both HTPC and DVD. If I've missed something in the mix, let me know but I'm fairly certain L1 is the ticket.

Projectors:

Projectors with digital inputs have to be able to handle both video applications and computer graphics applications. They should be able to calibrate or switch their white and black levels to accommodate both Studio levels and PC levels, but some don’t. Because video sources and graphics sources may be used simultaneously in some applications, video source manufacturers tend to include an option to leave the digital outputs at Studio levels, or to re-map them to PC levels.

Mapping Studio levels to PC levels can be done a few ways. Sometimes all the levels are just shifted down 16 steps, thus clipping off BTB data, but not introducing banding/contouring or clipping highlight details. If there are other PC level sources fed to the display, their whites will be substantially brighter. This is undesirable. Usually the levels are expanded: digital 16 (black) is shifted down to 0, and 235 (white) is shifted up to 255 (or sometimes a value slightly lower than 255) thus expanding the numerical range between black and white. In this case, re-mapping Studio levels to PC levels will destroy BTB and peak white image data, and introduce banding/contouring artifacts because of the expandion. This is also undesirable.

Always try to maintain Studio levels whenever possible in your system. You should use Avia PRO or DVE to test whether or not levels are being clipped. Both discs contain patterns with both BTB and peak white data. Note that the current consumer Avia does not, it only contains data in the range or 16-235. Thus if BTB or peak white data is being clipped, you won’t see it with Avia! If you are clipping the black or white bars in Avia, then your system is doing even more severe damage to the video by clipping above black shadow details and below-white detail: very bad! Note that Avia PRO also has some very useful ramp patterns with levels encoded at equal width so as to be completely banding-free. These are very useful for observing banding/contouring caused by the playback system.

...In any case, I just reiterate that it is important to design your HTPC and settings purposefully so that you can maintain Studio RGB for video playback, and calibrate your display to this and not to the graphics’ PC RGB levels.




For DVD players when using a digital output (DVI, HDMI).

When using digital outputs, your primary concern is to get the DVD’s image data output as undisturbed as possible. As simple as this might seem, design/price constraints, sloppy engineering, and ‘features’ can get in the way of transferring the digital data from the DVD intact. Always try to avoid using any image-altering features such as picture controls. These adjustments will usually have negative impacts on picture quality.

When using digital outputs, the major adjustment option you have is the one for digital levels. As is common in consumer labeling, the labels for this can be confusing. The most common labeling will at least hopefully show that you are making an adjustment to the DVI/HDMI digital outputs, and usually the options will read ‘Normal/Enhanced’ or ‘Normal/Expanded’ or ‘Video/PC,’ or some such label. The latter is clearer, as this adjustment is choosing whether or not the digital image data is correctly output using Studio (also called Video) levels, or is incorrectly re-mapped to PC levels. You should choose to maintain Studio levels by checking to make sure this option is properly set. Usually the default setting will correctly choose the option for Studio levels. Check to make sure.

Note that the Studio/PC level option will only work for DVI and HDMI RGB. If you are using HDMI YCbCr, Studio levels should be preserved correctly(and as far as I’m aware sources aren’t screwing this up, yet…) and the option change will either have no effect or be unavailable.

Because you are using digital outputs, adjustments for analog outputs shouldn’t be a consideration. Unfortunately again, due to cost-saving designs, sometimes analog output adjustments, such as those for IRE setup, are implemented digitally even though they have nothing to do with digital outputs. Here your concern is still to ensure that the digital image data is being left as undisturbed as possible. In a well-designed player, the IRE option will have no effect whatsoever when using digital outputs. If this setting causes any change in the image when using the digital outputs, you should use test patterns to see which option leaves data un-clipped. In this instance, the degree of clipping or image alterations may be severe, so Avia, DVE, or any good test disc will come in handy. In Avia, look for the moving near-black and near-white white bars; in DVE use the ramps (Title12:Chp14) and check for clipping (if you have access to Avia PRO, the Deep Ramps are excellent tests!). Use the IRE setup setting that maintains as much data as possible through to your display. The default setting may more likely be the preferred setting. Default is usually the 7.5IRE setting. This was reported to be the case on the Denon 3910; users should test this on their players and share model-specific observations to aid others!

With the hope that digital levels and IRE are conceptually disentangled, you should understand that the IRE setup option is really for the analog output, and shouldn’t have to be discussed when using digital outputs. Unfortunately, instead of implementing these analog adjustments in the analog domain, cost-conscious designs seem to be altering the digital values, which necessitates double-checking this option to make sure your digital levels are not being tampered with.



HTPCs

If you are using an HTPC, I will dodge the complex arena that is computer video, and merely recommend strongly that you do your best to maintain Studio levels and prevent your computer from expanding the video to PC levels. To check this, examine deep ramps on Avia PRO, or use the ramps and PLUGE patterns on DVE. Note that consumer Avia does not contain data outside the bounds of reference black/white (16-235) so you will not be able to observe the clipping of data outside these bounds using Avia. Moving to PC levels will usually clip data 1-15 and 235-255; this data is present in the ramps and PLUGE patterns on DVE (T12 Chps 13-15) and in many patterns on Avia PRO.

Remember that proper playback of video requires Studio levels to maintain the full range of image data, including that data outside the bounds of reference black/white. Achieving this on a PC can be difficult, and it also means that your desktop and your video cannot both look correct at the same time. Expanding your video to match PC levels (0-255) will make your desktop and your video ‘agree’ and eliminate the need to recalibrate, but you’ve also negatively impacted video playback by clipping useful image data and introducing banding/contouring artifacts. This is undesirable, you should strive to maintain Studio levels if at all possible.

Helluva good detective job (and post) Dweezilz! I too agree that ROne's L2 settings produced a milky, slightly washed out picture for me as well. I spent the better part of last night calibrating (again!) several scenarios and the best I've been able to come up with is a tuned version of Living.

My Z4 is a fairly recent build so I don't know if Sanyo has tweaked/tuned it any since the initial batch but it calibrated out pretty well, unlike some of the horror stories I read earlier in this thread. The B/C settings only needed to be bumped a tiny bit and C/T weren't too far off. I did have to go in to CM and knock red down a couple notches and fix skin tones but that was it.

The shadow details are the bugger though. I froze the picture on the final scene of Spiderman (one) where you can see the back of Peters head and then simply flipped the L1/L2 switch back and forth. In L1 the individual hairs near the neck are very dark and undefined but when switched to L2 I could clearly make out waves and generally see much more detail. This came at the expense of the rest of the picture which was clearly unacceptable. I know B/C needed to be adjusted for the L2 switch, that's not the point. The point is there is stuff to see in a calibrated L1 picture that I'm not seeing. Is it possible to get the best of both worlds?

I found this in your above post (DVD section) "Always try to avoid using any image-altering features such as picture controls. These adjustments will usually have negative impacts on picture quality." and it makes perfect sense. My Sony player though will not show BTB in it's 'normal' setting. I had to set it to Cinema 1 to get it to pass BTB. I can't imagine this is the culprit but I'm looking at all scenarios.

Oh, my Z4 is ceiling mounted 9' 6" back of my 92" Da-lite Hi-Power screen.

My problem is that on both the HDMI as well as composite (to run the Wii until the component cables come in) inputs, I have this odd rainbow effect on my screen. It is not like the DLP one, but it is about a dozen lines of rainbows going horizontally across the entire screen. This can be best seen during bright/white shots. It is definitely coming from the projector and not something to do with the screen itself. Any ideas? It doesn't ruin the experience, but other people can definitely see this on the screen as well, so it is something I want to fix. I might try to take some pics of it later tonight, but I don't know if it will show up or not on the picture since they're fairly faint, but can still be seen by the eye.
Anyone have any ideas for me? It is anoying to see.

Dweezilz - if you can see BTB when brightness is too high with a digital source - then you have Video levels - if you cannot then you have PC levels.

The confusion comes because some HTPC use reverse nomenclature - that is if the video is stretched to full range they call that video levels - and if the video leaves in the headroom/footroom they say it is at PC levels. It is source/display viewpoint being different - computer vs. video engineers not communicating - but it is the video engineers define the standard - and the computer engineers just did not read it - video engineers say Studio RGB or Video DVI is when black is at #16 - and BTB is at #0 - not when black is at #0 and you have no BTB.

Since I have a reference video generator that can be set either way - I have no such confusion about what my source is putting out - and I was able to properly test it.

L2 expects blacks at level 16 - but if your brightness was calibrated for blacks at level 0 - of course it will look milky - you have not recalibrated brightness yet! L1 was clipping the BTB. Flipping back and forth is exactly the wrong thing to do - and so is using unknown sources and media. One is not supposed to be darker than the other - rather it is just adjusting the expected reference level to be #0 or #16.

Some DVDs may incorrectly use the footroom down to BTB for signal - they are not supposed to as that means you need a brightness setting for every DVD. Get yourself a test pattern DVD with BTB (AVIA does not have it - but the ISF/Monster, DVE, THX all do). And if you do find a rougue DVD not following standards you will have to ride the brightness control.

Check out Chris Wiggles signature - he has a FAQ post on this confusion. Probably better to link it than copy it as it is always updated.

But the simple answer with digital is - can you see the BTB? It does not matter what the controls are called - as long as you can see the BTB you know you can calibrate it away - or open up to see footroom details that should not be there but sometimes are. The wrong settings for source/display to use are the ones in which you cannot see BTB (when brightness is raised solely to see if it is there)

Dweezilz - if you can see BTB when brightness is too high with a digital source - then you have Video levels - if you cannot then you have PC levels.

The confusion comes because some HTPC use reverse nomenclature - that is if the video is stretched to full range they call that video levels - and if the video leaves in the headroom/footroom they say it is at PC levels. It is source/display viewpoint being different - computer vs. video engineers not communicating - but it is the video engineers define the standard - and the computer engineers just did not read it - video engineers say Studio RGB or Video DVI is when black is at #16 - and BTB is at #0 - not when black is at #0 and you have no BTB.

Since I have a reference video generator that can be set either way - I have no such confusion about what my source is putting out - and I was able to properly test it.

L2 expects blacks at level 16 - but if your brightness was calibrated for blacks at level 0 - of course it will look milky - you have not recalibrated brightness yet! L1 was clipping the BTB. Flipping back and forth is exactly the wrong thing to do - and so is using unknown sources and media. One is not supposed to be darker than the other - rather it is just adjusting the expected reference level to be #0 or #16.

Some DVDs may incorrectly use the footroom down to BTB for signal - they are not supposed to as that means you need a brightness setting for every DVD. Get yourself a test pattern DVD with BTB (AVIA does not have it - but the ISF/Monster, DVE, THX all do). And if you do find a rougue DVD not following standards you will have to ride the brightness control.

Check out Chris Wiggles signature - he has a FAQ post on this confusion. Probably better to link it than copy it as it is always updated.

But the simple answer with digital is - can you see the BTB? It does not matter what the controls are called - as long as you can see the BTB you know you can calibrate it away - or open up to see footroom details that should not be there but sometimes are. The wrong settings for source/display to use are the ones in which you cannot see BTB (when brightness is raised solely to see if it is there)

That makes perfect sense but....
I used the exact same settings (ROne's) for two different user settings. Setting 1 used L2 and I set the brightness appropriately. Setting 2 used L1, again with brightness set appropriately. I can see BTB on both.

Setting 1 definitely looked milkier than setting 2. There is something more going on with the L1/L2 switch than simply the ability to display more shades of white/black.

It would be really nice to have a PJ that operated like a toaster, plug it in and it works perfectly for everyone - everytime. :rolleyes:

Is it possible your source is outputting BTB at #16 and black at #32??!! I am pretty sure it was clipping BTB with L1 with the reference generator.

As Chris' post on this notes - this digital black level thing is a fracking mess! Digital is actually more confusing than analog! You basically have to calibrate all source/display combos and see which has BTB and which calibrates the best (including looking for banding/dithering in grayramps) And once you get it right - you still have rogue DVD and TV channels that get it wrong.

Is it possible your source is outputting BTB at #16 and black at #32??!! I am pretty sure it was clipping BTB with L1 with the reference generator.


I wouldn't really know but I doubt it, it's just a stock "off the rack" Sony NS75H. The only change to the player I've made is to switch it to "Cinema 1" mode so it passes BTB.

My HDMI connection is rather strange though. My previous PJ was DVI so my cable is HDMI at the player end and DVI at the PJ end. To this I sandwiched a DVI/HDMI convertor so I basically end up with HDMI/DVI/HDMI. I can't imagine this would cause a problem as the picture would be sent straight through digitally and unchanged, just the sound gets stripped out which is no biggie.

Here's the link to the Wiggles FAQ in it's full glory:

Setup FAQ (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4969789#post4969789)

I guess the main point is this. For a stand alone DVD player L1 seems to be what works best and what Chris is recommending right? He also seems to say use L1 for HTPC too using MCE or TT, right? Kras, are you saying this is not the care? Still confused here.

Also, I have the DVE DVD (which I HATE for it's horrid navigation and no explainations like AVIA). Which pattern should I use to see the BTB and WTW and what am I looking for?

Somewhere there was a navigating DVE writeup in the calibration forum...here

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7913037&&#post7913037

Chris agrees using Video DVI (AKA Studio RGB) - which means black is #16 - this is the default with HDMI sources (even if you physically adapt thru DVI). However for some HTPC software - it may use different levels depending on how you configure them - I know MCE is configurable and TT 2.x is. It is best to configure the HTPC for the headroom/footroom of video because then the digtial signal matches the digital data on the DVD and you will not get any banding/dithering - of course you need the PC setting for desktop usage.


I am not sure why you guys see BTB with L1 - as I did not with the generator. So figure out the DVE and double check that!

I'll don't know that I see BTB with L1. I've never checked. I'lll let you know what I find. But either way, if a DVD doesn't do BTB, which from what I can tell most don't, it doesn't matter right?

Only test pattern DVD's should do BTB - it is only there so that you know when you just crush BTB into the blackground. Makes calibration easier is all. However if you cannot see it then you might worry about the pure digital data got munged along the way - banding/dithering/clipping/crushing should be looked for closely.

1.2 gain white 106" screen or 1.8 gain gray 106" with z4?

Anyone have any advice on this?

i've read the entire thread, so i hope someone can help...

i'm looking for the service manual, all the links in this thread are broken.

also, reading about all the calibration settings i find these:
Gain R +5
Offset R -4
Gamma G 0

but in my image menu there are no gain, offset, or gamma functions only the regular RGB settings. am i missing something?

thanks!!!

Sorry if this is not the correct terminology, but what level/version is the HDMI connection on our Z4's? With all the hype about HDMI 1.3 I have been wondering if we have that type of connection or not.

Thanks!

i've read the entire thread, so i hope someone can help...

i'm looking for the service manual, all the links in this thread are broken.

also, reading about all the calibration settings i find these:
Gain R +5
Offset R -4
Gamma G 0

but in my image menu there are no gain, offset, or gamma functions only the regular RGB settings. am i missing something?

thanks!!!

Hi ferday,

I think you need to select the advanced menu settings in the menu.

Tim

Anyone have any ideas for me? It is anoying to see.

Is it rainbows as in colored light? Or is it just lines running up and down the screen during bright scenes? Does the sky turn different color other than blue in what you are describing?

But the simple answer with digital is - can you see the BTB? It does not matter what the controls are called - as long as you can see the BTB you know you can calibrate it away - or open up to see footroom details that should not be there but sometimes are. The wrong settings for source/display to use are the ones in which you cannot see BTB (when brightness is raised solely to see if it is there)
With my component inputs I can adjust the settings to be able to see all three black bars on the DVE test disc, not so with the same test through HDMI. Although I did manage it once as I noted previous on this thread but with so many variables on both the projector and DVD player it is hard to get it set. From what you are saying though that if the third bar is not seen the projector is calibrated properly.

Is it rainbows as in colored light? Or is it just lines running up and down the screen during bright scenes? Does the sky turn different color other than blue in what you are describing?
Nope, the sky and all bright scenes are fine and do not change colors. It is rainbows as in colored light that go horizontally from left to right across the entire screen. The lines are not perfectly straight, but stay horizontal the entire duration across the screen. It's almost as if there was a film or additive on the outside of my lens that is causing this effect, but I have cleaned it with a projector lens cleaner and still have the same exact effect. Thanks for the help!

With my component inputs I can adjust the settings to be able to see all three black bars on the DVE test disc, not so with the same test through HDMI. Although I did manage it once as I noted previous on this thread but with so many variables on both the projector and DVD player it is hard to get it set. From what you are saying though that if the third bar is not seen the projector is calibrated properly.

Yes the BlackerThanBlack bar is only there so you can see it to calibrate it away - makes it easier - and with digital it is the only way to be bit perfect since the source DVD's contain this footroom. You want to eliminate the footroom on the PJ not the source as there is more bits to work with.

Nope, the sky and all bright scenes are fine and do not change colors. It is rainbows as in colored light that go horizontally from left to right across the entire screen. The lines are not perfectly straight, but stay horizontal the entire duration across the screen. It's almost as if there was a film or additive on the outside of my lens that is causing this effect, but I have cleaned it with a projector lens cleaner and still have the same exact effect. Thanks for the help!

Try it on another surface. Your white wall or something else and see if it is the same.

Here is stumper for me. I have two hard drives in my HTPC. One I use for everyday computing with XP Pro and the other has MCE on it with nothing else loaded aside from Theater Tek (although I usually use media center's player). The MCE drive plays DVD's on my Z4 perfectly (uses the NVidia pure drivers). Even Theater Tek on the MCE drive works perfectly too. The issue is, that if I don't feel like rebooting to the MCE drive and try to use Theater TEk on the XP Pro drive, on some movies (not all) I will get a random horizontal line that moves from the top of the screen down to the bottom. It seems to happen most when there is something moving on the screen. I do not see it on my monitor, only via the DVI/hdmi on my Z4. I know the answer is to just use the MCE drive, but I'm rebuilding it now so I've been trying to use the XP Pro drive. No matter what I do, I get that thin horizontal line that shows up randomly. Sometimes it can go 15 minutes without me seeing it, yet it will scroll down the screen 15-30 times per movie.

Any ideas?

Try it on another surface. Your white wall or something else and see if it is the same.
Already did that, and like I said it is definitely something wrong with the projector itself. I used my Stewart StudioTek screen with the Z1 before and never had the problem. It is really starting to bug me and I'm thinking about sending it back to Projector People for a replacement.

I just got my Z4 today and I don't really have the time to read thru this whole thread. What do you guys recommeded for the setting thru Component cables? I have a xbox 360 and Directv HD TiVo connected thru component.

amurto - I have to laugh at your statement about not having time to read thru. I suggest you make the time. I read several times thru and used everyone's settings in here at least once and Avia until I was finally happy with Rone's living settings and tweaked a little because of screen differences and dvd players.

I CAN tell you however that the xbox 360 will be too dark if you are using his living settings and have HCCV screen.

Good Luck! If you strive for perfection like I do you will be doing this for the next month or two.

Or twelve! ha!

I just switched my 360 from component to VGA so I can use DVD upscaling and I was hoping for a better 1:1 mapping. However I seem to be having about 30-60 pixel overhang horizontally. I have turned overscan down to 0 and that fixed the vertical overscan. Horiztonal I can move the picture right or left using the horizontal setting but when centered I have 30 or so pixels hanging off the left or right? Am I missing something? Thanks.

steebo777 return it then. It should not do what you describe.

Further to the L1, L2 debate I suggested several pages back that a new list be posted of the ideal settings for component, video and HDMI. After reading through the thread numerous times I have found these tweaks incomplete and missing key information as to which setting was the base for the tweak or which HDMI L1 or L2 was used or even if the tweak was meant for which input.

This goes for Rones and eagles and cool canuk's and others settings. A consoladated listing showing complete details for all three inputs or even just one would be appreciated by all.

I would ask the three posters listed to relist including HDMI settings L1 or 2 startof tweak, creative or whatever and which input it is for. Also the type of screen surface and light level in the posters viewing room would be great. What is listed earlier is good but there are far too many unknown variables in the posting to make meaningfull setup achievable.

1. List the input the tweak is designed for and specifics for that setting input
2. List the starting point for the tweak from the Z4 menu
3. List if the setting is for pc or DVD
4. Anything else relevant that will enable the forum member reading the posting to duplicate your setting.

I think it is about time this is done on this thread to take out the unknown issues not originally included of the previous posters. I appreciate the past work done but just a little extra effort would benefit all going forward.

Not that I think there's going to be an outpouring of new settings at this point, but one of the most important things is the screen material type. You can know every single thing about a setting and everyone raves about it, yet it's not good for the type of screen material you have (ie eagles settings and the HCCV). I do tend to agree with kras that these settings are at best only a good starting point because every room is different and Z4's are different including amount of hours on the lamp etc...

I'm with you there Dweezilz. What works for one may not work for another, but it's a good place to start. Short of a professional calibration the best thing anyone can do is get a DVE or Avia disc and then spend some time with it. The Z4 is capable of an incredible amount of tweeking and unfortunately, out of the box it needs it. The upside is the Z4 is also capable of spitting out a stellar picture once you've dialed in the settings appropriate to your room, source, screen and light scenario.

Not that I think there's going to be an outpouring of new settings at this point, etc...


I am not looking for new settings, I am looking to complete the good settings already posted by members. I did not know until the last page for instance that eagles4 used "creative" as his base. Most are just the setting numbers with out a proper base to begin.

But what controls are there that you can actually duplicate.

Brightness/Contrast/Color/Tint are there solely for you to adjust for your sources - you need a basic test pattern DVD. Anothers settings will not work for you - even the same model source. Consumer sources are not proffesional gear that has to conform to standard signal levels - this is why the adjustments exist.

lamp/lens iris/auto settings - these are adjustable to adapt to your screen, room, and preferences. Best to learn what they do and certainly discuss what others like and what worked for them - but copying settings here is not going to help your setup. One mans too bright is another mans too dim.

colortemp and RGB gain/offset/gamma is for adjusting grayscale - for your lamp, your panel, and your screen. Sanyo includes multiple colortemp presets close to each other so you can try to accomodate your setup without doing a professional calibration. It is a mistake to say someones elses calibration is a starting point - with grayscale already being excellent with different low* variations - that is your starting point. Anyone elses settings may actually make your preset worse for your screen, lamp, and your panel - it is not a better place to start.

Color Management System requires frame capture of your video sources - absolutely nobody can copy settings here - as there are no settings to set! Sadly it is a required calibration step - required advanced test patterns and filters.

So what is left that you could copy that would work for your setup? About all that is left is the setup mode - and you just need understand what you like and dislike about each one.

So a tweak thread works best to say - I started in mode so and so, did the basic video adjustments from AVIA - did the advanced color adjustments with the filters - and adjusted the colortemp and iris settings that looked best on my screen in my room. It is not important where those numbers ended up - it is important the journey you took to get there. Posting settings just invites people to take the shortcut that is a deadend.

When did tweaking come to be about copying others settings - rather than learning the flexibility inherent in the settings - and tweaking them with the help of a calibration DVD. Seems that most that want the settings do not even have a calibration DVD - and that is where they took a wrong turn. If you want to tweak - then learn how to tweak. Otherwise hire somebody that knows how to tweak.

O.K. the majority has spoken.

What I was trying to get across is that many people ask for other peoples settings as a starting point to create thier own.
Again, ( I will forever stop mentioning this point now ) is that these settings are flawed as they are almost all incomplete, missing key points to assist in achieving a proper set up.

I was under the understanding that the " Z4 tweak thread" was created to help likeminded members achieve good results by posting the results of thier efforts.

I thank the posters for taking time to post the efforts made in trying to achieve the best picture on the Z4 possible.

But what controls are there that you can actually duplicate.

Brightness/Contrast/Color/Tint are there solely for you to adjust for your sources - you need a basic test pattern DVD. Anothers settings will not work for you - even the same model source. Consumer sources are not proffesional gear that has to conform to standard signal levels - this is why the adjustments exist.

lamp/lens iris/auto settings - these are adjustable to adapt to your screen, room, and preferences. Best to learn what they do and certainly discuss what others like and what worked for them - but copying settings here is not going to help your setup. One mans too bright is another mans too dim.

colortemp and RGB gain/offset/gamma is for adjusting grayscale - for your lamp, your panel, and your screen. Sanyo includes multiple colortemp presets close to each other so you can try to accomodate your setup without doing a professional calibration. It is a mistake to say someones elses calibration is a starting point - with grayscale already being excellent with different low* variations - that is your starting point. Anyone elses settings may actually make your preset worse for your screen, lamp, and your panel - it is not a better place to start.

Color Management System requires frame capture of your video sources - absolutely nobody can copy settings here - as there are no settings to set! Sadly it is a required calibration step - required advanced test patterns and filters.

So what is left that you could copy that would work for your setup? About all that is left is the setup mode - and you just need understand what you like and dislike about each one.

So a tweak thread works best to say - I started in mode so and so, did the basic video adjustments from AVIA - did the advanced color adjustments with the filters - and adjusted the colortemp and iris settings that looked best on my screen in my room. It is not important where those numbers ended up - it is important the journey you took to get there. Posting settings just invites people to take the shortcut that is a deadend.

When did tweaking come to be about copying others settings - rather than learning the flexibility inherent in the settings - and tweaking them with the help of a calibration DVD. Seems that most that want the settings do not even have a calibration DVD - and that is where they took a wrong turn. If you want to tweak - then learn how to tweak. Otherwise hire somebody that knows how to tweak.

I disagree. There are plenty of folks out there looking for a better picture than what is delivered out of the box and yet for various reasons can't or won't go the professional calibration route. Additionally, some of these folks wouldn't know the difference between having the "contrast enhancement" on or off, they are simply looking for a better picture than what is delivered out of the box - probably the reason they came to this forum in the first place. The Z4 leaves a lot to be desired out of the box.

I have a generic DVD player (Sony NS75H), a mainstream screen (Da-Lite Hi-Power) beige walls and a white ceiling in my living room/home theater combo room with heavy drapes for my "ambient light control". Basically, I'm Joe Consumer and probably more in the majority than the minority. If I ventured to this site looking for answers as to why my Z4 made the faces so red and the lips a little too purple, I'd love to find someone with a setup similar to mine who was nice enough to post the settings they used to fix those problems. Yeah, it ain't "calibrated" but it sure is better than it was before and maybe that's just good enough.

Let's say the Z4 is a car and it can go 100MPH after being tuned by a pro. Yet when I bought my Z4 it could only go 75MPH. I know it can go faster and I know 100MPH is it. If I asked a buddy of mine (this forum) what I would need to do to my Z4 to kick up the speed and he gave me some generic pointers that would magically bring it to 90MPH, hey I'm thrilled! It may not be 100 but for me, it's good enough.

I didn't want to give Kiwi200's suggestion the rub, as a matter of fact it's a great idea and should be pursued. There are shortcuts out there that 'will' improve your picture from the stock settings and for a bunch of people I bet that would be enough. When I punched in Eagles4 settings on my machine the picture was instantly better than what I had, how can you argue with that? Better is better. It's only in degrees the difference between good enough and professionally calibrated. I'm not using Eagles4 settings any longer but they were a great starting off point for me and I appreciate him posting them. For some, with similar environments and equipment it will be 'just the ticket'. It doesn't cost one penny to try them.

This forum is appropriately named the 'tweak' thread and should be used for all manner of settings, tweaks and knowledge. Some will glean gems from the info, some will scoff but all will learn more about their machine and it's capabilities and then decide just how fast they want their Z4 to go. I'm doing 95MPH now and I'm pretty happy. Thanks to all the forum members here who take the time to share what they know.

Oh, before I forget, Z4 newbies "get a calibration disc and use it!" :D

A calibration DVD is very inexpensive - and takes little time to learn. If people have questions on how to do a brightness adjustment - then helping them to learn the DVD and understanding the nature of the control and how to read the pattern is helping them tweak. Telling them - just use Brightness -5 - is not helping them or anybody. It most certainly does not get them into calibration!

Exactly how do you think that some elses brightness/contrast/color/tint setting is going to help you? These adjustments are there for the very reason that sources vary - if this was pro-reference gear with invariant sources - there would be no reason for the adjustments.

In fact the only way to fix the red push is with the Color Management System - which is impossible to post settings for anyways - as it requires capture of your source video and selection of the on screen colors. That maybe too advanced for JoeBlow - but it does not require professional gear to fix beyond AVIA DVD with the RGB filter set.

The grayscale adjustment does require calibration sensors - and it is so close with several presets to choose from to match your screen - that it is a safe bet that using someone elses settings for grayscale WILL make it worse not better.

What you are not understanding is that posting such settings do not get you in the ballpark - do not get you closer - and likely make things worse - they are not a shortcut to an almost there 95% calibration like you are implying.

I have three sources hooked up to my display at home and each one of them requires a different preset. The problem is you can switch to the different preset and initially think that looks better - it is not better - it is just different than what you were used to. I even make that mistake myself when I push preset 2 for source 3 when preset 3 was calibrated for source 3. I think indeed it is better - has more contrast - has more color - but then I realize my mistake and switched back - and only then do I realize it was crushing B&W detail - and the colors were unnatural.

TV manufacturers use the same difference psychology to sell TV's. You will buy the one that looks different and stands out on the sales floor - as if it was "better". They know if they all put out a calibrated set it would like the same as all the others - and you would be paralyzed and unable to decide which was "better".

So you leave out the basic video adjustments - you leave out the calibration grayscale adjustments, and you leave out the CMS adjustments when you post numbers - because they don't do anyone a bit of good. So what is left as far as numbers to post - that will do somebody some good?

OK you have your 'contrast enhancement' - a marketing gimmick that nobody can figure out what it does - so you list that one to leave as off - as whatever it does is probably not reference - the 'enhancement' is a big clue there.

Then you have the HDMI L1 and L2 - I tried to share what I found it was expecting then there were conflicting confusing reports. So rather than say just set it to this - better to say just adjust for whatever makes BTB visible in calibration.

steebo777 return it then. It should not do what you describe.
Cool, I'll return it this week, thanks for the help. Hopefully ProjectorPeople is cool with returning it with 52hrs on the bulb.

O.K. the majority has spoken.

What I was trying to get across is that many people ask for other peoples settings as a starting point to create thier own.
Again, ( I will forever stop mentioning this point now ) is that these settings are flawed as they are almost all incomplete, missing key points to assist in achieving a proper set up.

I was under the understanding that the " Z4 tweak thread" was created to help likeminded members achieve good results by posting the results of thier efforts.

I thank the posters for taking time to post the efforts made in trying to achieve the best picture on the Z4 possible.

...it's ok dude...no need to feel bad...it's all still good here. Nobody said anything about the majority speaking out agasinst you. Kras was just giving his opinion on posting people's numbers as NOT being a good starting point. We get what you are saying and your idea in theory is very sound. It's just his opinion that it doesn't help much, not a call out against you. He's a pro calibrator and probably knows more than most here. I will say that I tend to agree with him to some degree about starting points because my results have been less than stellar using any of the settings posted here. I'm glad for those that posted their settings, so don't get me wrong. There just may be validity about about how useful another person's setup actually is compared to starting with a Z4 preset and going from there with AVIA.

To be honest, there are many settings out there (the majority in fact) that do say what the starting point was and what input it was for including ROne's. He's stated many times that he used ONLY HDMI and L2 and Living and CC. Most of the others say the input type as well. Sometimes it's a few posts later but people usually gave the preset and input. I agree there are a few that miss which input it's used for and if HDMI, if it's L1 or L2 but many have it. The point usually missing with all of the setups is screen material and light conditions. Throw in Color Management tweaks and basically all bets are off. It doesn't mean we can't try to help, it's just an opinion that it might be more useful to just start with a preset and go from there on your own. I don't know enough to say for sure which is better so I defer to Kras. If someone has the same screen material in a total light controlled environment, same screen size, same lamp useage, and their wall paint color is similar, then those numbers actually could be useful. Eliminate those variables, especially the screen, and it very well might be true that it's not even a good starting point.

At any rate, your idea is good. Regardless of how helpful posting a setup actually is, if someone is to post their setup, they do need to include that info as well as screen material, size, lamp life, wall color, and light conditions. And I'd agree that to help those who are trying different setups posted previously without that info, repost it with everything included. And, if possible, any info on what type of color management they did, although that's next to impossible since colors used can't always be duplicated if using non setup DVD colors to load the pallet. At this point, I'm done trying other setups but for those that still want them, we are in agreement that it would be helpful.

Steps to calibrating the Z4.

Watch all the diffferent presets - choose the one you like best. Do not try to mess with the lamp/iris/colortemp/enhancement settings - use the preset combinations. The manual makes it fairly clear what the nature of the presets are - and I discuss their calibration performance in my review. My previous posts in this thread should be enough info on how to tweak.

BASIC:
Get out your AVIA ( or any basic setup DVD) and do the basic brightness/contrast/color/tint. THX has the nearly free blue glasses you can send in for to use with their THX certified DVDs you probably already have. For TV find a test pattern broadcast. Do this basic setup on enough of your sources and you realize how foolish it is to plug in some numbers here.

ADVANCED:
Get out your AVIA with the RGB filters (or DVE) - and do the Color Management System
Impossible to plug in numbers here even if it wasn't meaningless to do so.

EXPERT:
Try using colorbars and graybars to tune the grayscale by eye. Since the presets are close already - you may find this difficult without an experienced eye and a visual reference to a calibrated monitor (many PC monitors 6500K preset is not bad)

DIY:
Go buy some calibration gear....you will soon find out how foolish it is to plug in numbers as soon as you do your neighbors Z4. Even IF the screen size/gain/material and desired ftL are the same - the lamps and panels are your greatest differences - both manufacturing and burn-in variances.

PRO:
Here somebody that will fix it so you can watch movies and not get caught up retweaking and retweaking. Spend your quality forum time over in the HDDVD and XBOX360 threads - set aside the annual upgrade PJ churn budget for building a dedicated HT instead.

Kras
I watch DVD using windows media player with nvidia pure video decoder. If I pick one of the preset and then use spyder pro to get an icc profile that will be loaded in the LUT when I start the computer, is there any further gain by tweaking the setting in the projector.

HTPC is complicated - did your video player use the video overlay or the desktop or the VMR9 to render - as desktop is controlled by the LUT - the other not. The other problem is ICC profiles are 8b per color and should not be used to correct greyscale - you want to do this on the display since the panel adjustments are 12b per color. I would only use the ICC if the display was not D65 adjustable - I think the only reason it was ever implemented that way is then the adjustment can be made automatically - instead of counting on you to adjust your monitor controls.

And just when you think you have the basic video adjustments figured out on your player - you realize that even over DVI the basic video adjustments are on the display!

Do some research in the display calibration forum - several people are making spreadsheets if you want to use your sensor on the display. Of course that means learning a lot more about calibration!

I have had the Z4 for about 3 months now.. I have worked extensively to calibrate it myself. I have a thorough knowledge of all things electronic, but am reasonable new to the Home Theater projector Scene.. I have tried everything in this Thread and many other options from a lot of people and haven't really got terrific results.. Everything tried has resulted in severe red push.. Again I have no idea what Rone and Eagle, etc look like on your setup..

I too had some purple lips and some weird colors.. On my setup this happened when I was using VMR7 or VMR9 Renderless for color controls with Windows INSTEAD of regular VMR9.. I also had some issues using Overlay.. I am hooking it up through a DVI-D to HDMI cable coming out of my Geforce 7600 graphics card on my computer. Although I haven't checked for perfection with a conventional DVD player I have played some movies through it and it appears to have a great result in color as well.

I recommend buying a AVIA setup disc (which I did) to calibrate the color as well as the grayscale/ brightness, etc.


My setup is the:

Z4 Projector Approx 13 foot away from the Draper Luma "92 screen that used to come with it as a rebate.. It has a 1.1 Gain and is a White Matte Finish..


HDMI Setup: L2
Brightness: -9
Contrast: +2
Color: 0
Tint: +4
Color Temp. Low1 (Trasck best to 6500K)
(Which is Red +9, Green 0, Blue -1)
Sharpness: 0 (-3 is preferred by most but I like the RAZOR sharp pic)
Lamp Control: Lowest
Gamma 0
Lens Iris: anywhere from -30 to -44 to taste

Then you take the AVIA disc and load color bars. It comes with 3 see-thru filters or Red, Green, and Blue. Take each one and load eash color bar setup. Use the Red filter with the one labeled Red, Blue with Blue etc. When you hold the filter up and look through it all the different colors on the screen will look that color but be at different shades. USE COLOR MANAGEMENT and select each of the color bars to adjust and then use the "Color Level" part to adjust the Saturation part until the whole screen and all the bars look the SAME shade through the filter. The option color phase is for HUE. Move it until that part looks the same shade.. Do it for all the colors to fine tune it to perfection.

For appropriate Grayscale tracking my setting were: (in the Advanced menu)
Gain R -4
Gain G -7
Gain B -9
Offset R -13
Offset G 0
Offset B -4

All Gammas I left at 0 so far.. haven't go into that yet cause I am completely happy with my results.

Lamp Iris - Auto
all enhancements turned off..

I hope this helps some of you guys.. I am in no means an expert, but if you picture looks anything like mine I am sure you'll be happy. It wasn't completely free cause you will need to get a copy of AVIA ($40 I think) but with it I calibrated my projector, 3 TVs, etc and I feel I got my moneys worth.. I really doubt I could see the difference in a professional calibration.. or atleast it would be hard to justify the price difference VS the visual difference..

Again make sure you renderer in Windows is VMR9 Windowless instead of Renderless, VMR7 or Overlay.

Also I adjusted the overall Gamma to +3..

I have some HD content and although no one will tell you to switch it on I like Transient Improvment set to L3 when playing HD content.. The images POP when everything is set right.. It looks like the people are coming straight out ot the screen.. Video games look pretty good with this on too, the textures "appear" to be of a higher resolution even though they aren't.. Text, however, suffers.. You certainly wouldn't want it on to surf the web..

Kras
I use icc profile because I do photoshop. I guess one do not have the ability to adjust a computer monitor like the Z4. I don't know what windows media player uses to render. It's kind of confusing in terms of the interaction between nvidia and windows media player. I know if I use zoom player than I know exactly my rendering method(VMR 9 vs overlay). After your post I will calibrate the Z4 using the spreadsheet method which I understand fairly well from the calibration forum.

thanks Shiyat!!
I thought that was a great post.

Did you think that the HDMI connection is that much better than a VGA connection?
I'm currently using a VGA connection from an older Radeon All-In-wonder card and am thinking about taking the plunge into the 7600GT with hdmi output. But my video run will be about 50ft.

thanks Shiyat!!
I thought that was a great post.

Did you think that the HDMI connection is that much better than a VGA connection?
I'm currently using a VGA connection from an older Radeon All-In-wonder card and am thinking about taking the plunge into the 7600GT with hdmi output. But my video run will be about 50ft.

I don't know for sure about the VGA connection because I have't tried it.. I did try using the Component Out on my graphics cards and I know they make a component HD adapter for your graphics card. When I used the component out though I noticed GHOSTING of the image.. That is interference that for example when you look at the TEXT on the screen and look to the right of it a little bit you can see a 'shadow' of the same picture to the right ever so slightly.. This annoyed me to no end.. So I heard of 2 options to get rid of it.. 1) Get a Line Conditioner/Surge protector with special filters to clean up the signal 2) Go DIGITAL to eliminate the noise entirely.. Unfortunately I did BOTH and the HDMI cable was the one that fixed the problem. So if you are having ghosting of any kind the HDMI will foot the bill.. so for me the HDMI out really was the absolute best way to go. BTW I am running about 30ft of HDMI cable and it looks fantastic.. I really don't think the cable length will attack your picture, only your wallet.. The online auctions are the best way to go for the cables.

thanks Shiyat!!
I thought that was a great post.

Did you think that the HDMI connection is that much better than a VGA connection?
I'm currently using a VGA connection from an older Radeon All-In-wonder card and am thinking about taking the plunge into the 7600GT with hdmi output. But my video run will be about 50ft.

My friend who also has a Z4 tested both HDMI and VGA output from his HTPC to the Z4 and said there was little if any difference. 50ft is a pretty long run, so you'll need to test that out on your own and see. My buddy's run was only about 25 feet, but his results showed that pure input vs. input, with all things being equal, it looked the same. I have swapped my cable box output from componant to HDMI and to be honest, aside from the componant color being a bit more saturated, the HDMI didn't look any better. I do have very high quality componant cables from blue jeans so that makes a big difference too with componant. I stuck with the componant for my cable box because I liked the saturated color better.

OK, I've exhausted my search, but I am looking for a number that was posted many months ago to obtain the Sanyo free bulb and screen status. I submitted after purchasing and got the B.S. response: "You did not include a valid serial number (I certainly did) and after sending in proof again I have received neither the screen nor the bulb (it's been about 4 months now).

Does anyone have that number to call? Or does anyone know about the status of supplies for this incentive program?
Thanks for your help!
Does anyone have this? I'd like to see where mine is at.

I switch mostly between my modified ROne Living settings and these Dynamic settings depending on what I'm watching. If the Living settings don't look good to me for something, then I'll switch to the Dynamic. I use Dynamic mostly for sporting events and HD 'shot on video' shows but sometimes will use it for HD primetime depending on the show. For DVD's I often use the living settings but will try the Eagles4 settings. I hope to try to brighten those settings up a bit for me by using my DVE DVD.

Hi Dweezil,

Have found your dynamic settings excellent. Was wondering if you could post your "modified" Rone Living settings also. I searched thru all your posts and have not been able to find these modifications. I assume you are using ROne's Living settings as posted in his word doc, but adding your own tweaks. Thanks in advance.

Fellow Buckeye (but south in Cincy)

steebo777 return it then. It should not do what you describe.

Further to the L1, L2 debate I suggested several pages back that a new list be posted of the ideal settings for component, video and HDMI. After reading through the thread numerous times I have found these tweaks incomplete and missing key information as to which setting was the base for the tweak or which HDMI L1 or L2 was used or even if the tweak was meant for which input.

This goes for Rones and eagles and cool canuk's and others settings. A consoladated listing showing complete details for all three inputs or even just one would be appreciated by all.

I would ask the three posters listed to relist including HDMI settings L1 or 2 startof tweak, creative or whatever and which input it is for. Also the type of screen surface and light level in the posters viewing room would be great. What is listed earlier is good but there are far too many unknown variables in the posting to make meaningfull setup achievable.

1. List the input the tweak is designed for and specifics for that setting input
2. List the starting point for the tweak from the Z4 menu
3. List if the setting is for pc or DVD
4. Anything else relevant that will enable the forum member reading the posting to duplicate your setting.

I think it is about time this is done on this thread to take out the unknown issues not originally included of the previous posters. I appreciate the past work done but just a little extra effort would benefit all going forward.

Can someone please explain for a new owner what the difference between HDMI L1 and L2 is...

I have read this thread once start to finish and am reading again but I still can't seem to find this info. Any help would be appreciated...

Thanks,
Sean

Can someone please explain for a new owner what the difference between HDMI L1 and L2 is...

I have read this thread once start to finish and am reading again but I still can't seem to find this info. Any help would be appreciated...

Thanks,
Sean

Sean, without getting into the technical details. (BTW, you can find this topic in another thread on this forum.)

L1 is best used for TV, DVD material as it contains the video information that those sources produce.

L2 is best used for video games and pure computer use. Computer will display the additional video info.

If you use L2 with a DVD you will notice a grayer picture even if you calibrate brightness. L1 will give you a brighter picture as you can turn up the brightness without affecting the dark levels as soon.

Cheers
PS. I run HDMI

I have a question on where to install the Z4. I am building a Home Theater that will be 12 x 17 with 8 ft ceilings. I know it's small, but it's a townhouse. My question is how high off the ground can I place the Z4? I do not want to hang it since I am soundproofing the entire room and the ceiling is the weakest link. I want to put it up high on a shelf if possible, but I do not want to use the lens shift if I don't have to since the manual says it is best to not use it.

What have you guys done that worked best. MY screen will be about 90 to 110 inches (not sure) and the main reason I ask this is I am putting the outlet behind the projector and have to wire it before the drywall ...etc.

Thanks

I have a question on where to install the Z4. I am building a Home Theater that will be 12 x 17 with 8 ft ceilings. I know it's small, but it's a townhouse. My question is how high off the ground can I place the Z4? I do not want to hang it since I am soundproofing the entire room and the ceiling is the weakest link. I want to put it up high on a shelf if possible, but I do not want to use the lens shift if I don't have to since the manual says it is best to not use it.

What have you guys done that worked best. MY screen will be about 90 to 110 inches (not sure) and the main reason I ask this is I am putting the outlet behind the projector and have to wire it before the drywall ...etc.

Thanks

Your scenario is very similar to mine, my room is 14X18 with 8' ceilings. My Z4 is ceiling mounted 10' back of the 92" screen on a low profile mount that puts the PJ about 4" down from the ceiling. The Z4 will spin the fans up to full speed the instant you ceiling mount it so that's something to consider. It's not loud by any means (28db) but it's certainly not as quiet as when it's table or shelf mounted (22db).

I have several screens with different black header drops on them which forces me to use the lens shift (which was a big selling point for me) and I've never noticed even the smallest drop in quality when moving the lens in any direction. I wouldn't be afraid of that.

Because the Z4 is so flexible in it's mounting I would simply find the most unobtrusive spot in your room for it (allowing for cable length and proper ventilation of course) and put your power outlet there. It's a fabulous machine, you'll get great enjoyment from it. :)

Do you think I can put it on the back wall Say 16' away from the screen? That would be ideal. I can't wait to hook it up once I get this room done. Just when I think I am on the home stretch something else goes wrong.

Thanks

Do you think I can put it on the back wall Say 16' away from the screen? That would be ideal. I can't wait to hook it up once I get this room done. Just when I think I am on the home stretch something else goes wrong.

Thanks

Shouldn't be a problem at all... When I got my Z4 in I had it on a speaker
stand at 20' shooting a 120" screen. It worked awesome.

I'm ceiling mounted now at around 18', my laptop fan is louder than the Z4. ;-)

Any guess as to how high on the wall I can go? The higher the better. I am afraid to hook it up and try and move it around with no walls or anything up. I ideally would like to have it about 6 or 7 feet high on an 8 foot wall. Is this possible?

Any guess as to how high on the wall I can go? The higher the better. I am afraid to hook it up and try and move it around with no walls or anything up. I ideally would like to have it about 6 or 7 feet high on an 8 foot wall. Is this possible?

The great thing about the Z4 is its lens shift capabilities. You should have
absolutely no problem with mounting where you would like to. I was trying
to find the exact amount of lens shift in the manual but was having issues.

Check the manual out, pg. 15 ->

http://www.complete-it.ca/pdfs/projectors/Sanyo/user_PLV-Z4.pdf

It also has pictures of what lens shift limits are available.

Any guess as to how high on the wall I can go? The higher the better. I am afraid to hook it up and try and move it around with no walls or anything up. I ideally would like to have it about 6 or 7 feet high on an 8 foot wall. Is this possible?

Hi Tom. It's funny to see we've come full circle from this exact topic a year ago that's at the beginning of the main thread. ;) :p

My theater is 13' x 18.5' with 7' ceilings. I have a 106" screen and my projector is about 15' back mounted flush on the ceiling. I'm sitting about 13.5' from the screen which for me is just a tad too close but for many here would be fine.

Go to Projector Central and look at their projector calculator. It will show you the exact range for your screen size. The screen size will determine how far back the projector should be. Keep in mind that the lense is very much like a 35mm camera zoom lense as far as focus goes, so the best spot in right in the middle of the zoom range. It gives the best focus without the different lense distortions you get from the extremes in the range (the most zoom and no zoom).

So you'll want to position the projector at a distance from the screen that uses 1/2 of the zoom. For a 106" screen, that's about 15'-16' which is 1/2 the throw range of 10.7 - 21.3

How high up you go is up to you as this projector will be able to shift from anywhere in your setup. The less lense shift, the better the picture. The best spot is 0 lense shift. Try to line up as close to the top edge down to a 1/4 of the screen (vertical) to the lense as possible (if mounted upside down) and bottom edge to 1/4 up, if on a shelf or table. Mine is about 8" above which is fine. I just shift down just tad. Screen position should be so that in your seated position, your eye level looking straight ahead is aimed right at the top of the lower 3rd of the screen. Lots of people put their screen higher which means you'd be looking up, but the top of the lower 3rd is what to aim for.

Sean, without getting into the technical details. (BTW, you can find this topic in another thread on this forum.)

L1 is best used for TV, DVD material as it contains the video information that those sources produce.

L2 is best used for video games and pure computer use. Computer will display the additional video info.

If you use L2 with a DVD you will notice a grayer picture even if you calibrate brightness. L1 will give you a brighter picture as you can turn up the brightness without affecting the dark levels as soon.

Cheers
PS. I run HDMI


Thanks this makes sense compared to what I saw tweaking it around on Pj with a DVD Player....

Can you point me to the other thread so I can read up on this. I am super technical. I build chips for living..

Is this going to be an issue for me with a HDMI...

I have 3 full times devices:

PS/3 - Mostly for BD, some games and I will get linux running soon
Oppo 971 DVD
DirecTV high def PVR

I just ordered a monoprice switch to switch all these things to the projector...

BTW: On the topic of projector placement and lense shift I have been moving the PJ all around the room and using lens shift and comparing and I honestly I don't see much of difference. sharpness seems consistent at ridiculous zoom in either direction.... I doubt anyone would ever notice except in direct A/B comparison. I can't even convince myself I see a difference. I have tried 6 different placements with some good extremes on the controls. They all look great. The flexibility of this projector is amazing. At very far extremes your start to get a little keystone/geometric distortion but crank it in 10% and that seems to go away...Compared to all the data projectors I have used at work for 10 years this thing is amazing...

I have a blank slate to work with in a 18x21 room so I wanted to see if needed o to be conscious of projector placement. I'm not worried about it and am going to mount the PJ well behind the seating position...

My only issue is 7'8" ceiling and tall friends so I worried about how high to place. Furniture should be here in another week or two... Screen about the same time....

Waiting on the free pulldown screen and bulb from rebate but I really wanted a fixed screen for looks and no waves but can't comprehend why they cost so damn much and ordered designer white laminate in 5x8 sheet from Home Depot. I am totally excited... Another 2 or 3 weeks and it should all be assembled and looking OK and then I can start calibrating the PJ.

I can't wait to see Milkdrop visualization running on 110" screen in the basement to some of my favorite music. I love it on the 61" DLP in my primary theater... Having a hacked xbox with Xbox media center is worth it for that alone :)

Later..

Sean

Yeah it's not like the differences will be night and day between the max zoom and no zoom and Z4 position. I'd agree it's going to be difficult to tell any difference with several minutes inbetween viewing the different zooms and positions. The experts (and I don't mean me!!) say the farther away from the screen your projector is the more brightness it needs to throw a proper picture and on the other hand, if you are too close you start to have other PQ issues. And both will present some lense distortion as well. That's why in the middle is best. So while it's hard to tell without a side by side comparison there is a definate difference, so at least in my mind, I want to have the most perfect setup that my room will allow even if I can't verify the difference myself. You may not realize it but your eyes will be thankful. :)

One thing you do need to be careful about in your room is SDE. With that 110" screen, your seating will need to be about 15' to totally avoid seeing it. Some people aren't sensative at all to it and some are...like I am.

As for L1 vs. L2, here's a good description I found:

In the ITU-R BT.601-4 specification, reference black is at code 16 and reference white is at code 235. Codes 0 and 255 are “reserved” and not used for video encoding. Codes 1 though 15 are for “super black” and codes 236 through 254 are for “super white”. The super black and super white codes are footroom and headroom for the accurate preservation of transient peak excursions beyond the legal video range.

So basically if a DVD has been produced well, it won't contain info under 16 or over 235. The effects of allowing the Z4 to display those levels for a device that doesn't produce them is questionable and highly debtated. The bottom line is that normally for DVD's and HDTV, no matter if it's from a stand alone DVD player or HTPC or cable box, L1 is appropriate. Some disagree but hey, if L2 looks better to them, that's fine too. There also might be some video that doesn't follow the guidelines and have blacker than black or whiter than white. It just seems there is no legit answer because there are so many variables that change the results, thus the answer.

Yeah it's not like the differences will be night and day between the max zoom and no zoom and Z4 position. I'd agree it's going to be difficult to tell any difference with several minutes inbetween viewing the different zooms and positions. The experts (and I don't mean me!!) say the farther away from the screen your projector is the more brightness it needs to throw a proper picture and on the other hand, if you are too close you start to have other PQ issues. And both will present some lense distortion as well. That's why in the middle is best. So while it's hard to tell without a side by side comparison there is a definate difference, so at least in my mind, I want to have the most perfect setup that my room will allow even if I can't verify the difference myself. You may not realize it but your eyes will be thankful. :)

One thing you do need to be careful about in your room is SDE. With that 110" screen, your seating will need to be about 15' to totally avoid seeing it. Some people aren't sensative at all to it and some are...like I am.

As for L1 vs. L2, here's a good description I found:

In the ITU-R BT.601-4 specification, reference black is at code 16 and reference white is at code 235. Codes 0 and 255 are “reserved” and not used for video encoding. Codes 1 though 15 are for “super black” and codes 236 through 254 are for “super white”. The super black and super white codes are footroom and headroom for the accurate preservation of transient peak excursions beyond the legal video range.

So basically if a DVD has been produced well, it won't contain info under 16 or over 235. The effects of allowing the Z4 to display those levels for a device that doesn't produce them is questionable and highly debtated. The bottom line is that normally for DVD's and HDTV, no matter if it's from a stand alone DVD player or HTPC or cable box, L1 is appropriate. Some disagree but hey, if L2 looks better to them, that's fine too. There also might be some video that doesn't follow the guidelines and have blacker than black or whiter than white. It just seems there is no legit answer because there are so many variables that change the results, thus the answer.


Thanks for all the info dweezil.... The plan is to put the couch at about 15 feet... which as you say is where SDE disapears... Thanks for all the great info... So I guess on the HDMI thing Video games and HTPC's do produce blacker than black and whiter than white signals... and I beleive all the everyone are saying about the placement it just seems to be a 2nd or 3rd order effect. not something super obvious that many would notice... Makes me happy...

Have a great day...

having evantually sorted my source out (htpc) want to properly calibrate my z4
been trying to get through this large post but still need pointers
some info
source is via htpc with nvidia 7300 card hdmi cable(gamma etc all turned off )
room has total light control
screen 1.0 gain and 100" diag
pj ceiling mounted
been using R0ne original settings on CC with just brightness and contrast adjusted
have avia and DVE discs
ideas?

Hi,

I have a PLV Z-4 projector that is projecting on a 100" fixed screen from a distance of 10 feet. It is mounted about 5" from the ceiling (The top of the screen is also at the same height).

1. I am seeing light spill over on both the left and right sides of the screen. It is wider and the top and narrow at the bottom. When I use the zoom to bring it within the screen the image size reduces into a trapezoidal format. I have some keystone applied and vertical/horizontal lens shift too.

2. Also I have standard Dish network connection and when I watch standard television , it is not very clear. The words displayed on the screen is blurred.

I am connecting the projector to a JVC receiver using a HDMI cable.

I would really appreciate if any comments/tips can be provided which will help me rectify the issue.

Thanks,
Rajiv.

I would check your mounts pitch, roll, and yaw. I'm guessing one of those is off. Make your image slightly smaller than your screen when you adjust and you should be able to get it fairly even. Also keep in mind you are using 0 zoom at 10 feet and that's not the best location (middle of zoom is best). Don't know if that has anything to do with your issues though. You should not really have to use the digital keystone and it's best not to use it. Also make sure you screen is level and that your wall isn't 'crooked'. Many walls are a bit off which can give some overlap on a corner etc... Not much you can do about that.

As for the blury picture, it's hard to say what's causing the problem. 480i material looks crappy to begin with on the Z4. What are you outputting via your reciever? What resolution are you outputting from the Dish box? If it's 480i it's gonna look bad...very bad. If it's 720p then it could be your cables or even the receiver. Even at 720p, SD material still doesn't look great, that's for sure. It's always best to connect directly if possible. Even receivers that are made to switch can reduce the quality. Some are fine yet it's still best to go directly from video source to projector when possible.

Hi Dweezliz,

Thanks a lot for the response. I did exactly the same as you suggested. loosened the mount holding the projector, adjusted the projector position and made the picture appear on the center small. Removed keystoning so that it is 0 and then zoomed the image out , simultaneously doing the vertical and horizontal lens adjustment. I was able to get away from the border and the image now fills the screen perfectly.

Yes the Dish network output to receiver is 480. The receiver that I have cannot switch. I am rethinking my decision , to go with Cable so I get HD.

I had my son's b'day party and all of my neigbours applauded the set up. Many are in line now to do a projection system. Glad that they could see a nice image on the screen due to the tips from you.

Regards,
Rajiv.

Excellent news!

On the Dish subject, I use to have Dish Network and had a Dish 811 receiver. It wouldn't auto switch either but it was able to output even SD material at 1080i (or 720p) via the component and DVI port. I'm not familiar with the new 211, but I'd be surprised if it couldn't do the same. Your SD stuff will look better if the receiver can output it at 720p or 1080i. I switched from Dish because I think that cable is just easier and at least in my case at the time, it had more HD content including local HD without the hassle of an antenna.

Wow, is the L1/L2 debate is still on!

I tried extensively at the time to use L1 for the computer but couldn't make it fit or pass BTB.

With L2, I managed to get everything I need from the desktop through to VMR9 correct. As moving to L1 shifted all the calibration points needed; contrast shifted and then greyscale became skewed which required a different set of offset and gain settings. It was chaos! So I settled with L2.

The damn sanyo docs for this issue just don't help.

Hey ROne! Good to hear from ya! ROne I think that fits in with what I'd expect from everything I've read and been told. Desktop does make use of the L2 range so it makes sense. I think the main debate (or at least a question mark) is when using Media Center or TheaterTek. Neither of those products are optimized for L2. I can't find the e-mail but I asked support at TheaterTek and they confirmed that their product is intended for L1 Video levels. Since it uses the same nVidia decoders, Media Center is the same. Plus, DVD's don't use those ranges either unless they are implemented incorrectly. Again, I can't confirm this, but it's in the guide that's on AVS.

What programs were you using where L1 wasn't working? I guess this debate can't be settled since in theory, the PC desktop uses the full range of L2, yet the most common software DVD players don't use that range. For me at least, I never use any Desktop programs really and only use Media Center or TheaterTek. Does BTB matter if neither of those programs don't use those ranges?

Hi Dweezilz.

My take was that when you use L2 - you can mate the desktop to pass the full 0-255 range on the Z4 - this can be easily confirmed with any graphics programme or chart.

Now, I was using MCE with Nvida decoders in VMR9 - now when using VMR9 this did pass the full range which would imply that L2 works with VMR9. You then calibrate and then hide the BTB - but it is being passed.

As you can use both overlay and VMR for MCE and TT, would it not depend on this also?

When I used L1 - it would never pass BTB, I don't think this would matter that much providing your are correctly calibrated - there was some debate about clipping this data in L1 but it all got quite convoluted and I don't think it mattered absolutely. L2 for me because of the desktop.

Gotcha. Yeah it would depend on overylay or VMR9. I use VMR9 as well. How do you hide BTB later? If movies aren't mastered using that extra range, does it matter?So if you use the desktop as you do and watch movies, you do what you did and use L2 so it uses it when needed and hides it for movies? Then for people like me who use the PC only for movies, it doesn't matter as long as you calibrate for L1 or L2 and hide BTB is need be. Is that about how you see it? It would be really interesting to know which DVD's aren't calibrated properly and use the full range 'cause if you calibrate to one or the other and the DVD has black at a different number that would be a problem right? I guess most DVD's don't have black at 0 so for movies at least, L1 works. Since you use both desktop stuff and movies, L2 is good.

It's all so confusing as you said that it is really tough to know what to do. I guess just go with what looks best and run with it! :)

Hi:

I recently got a Z4, and was wondering what tweaks to make, and settings to change:

I run it off of a X360 w/ VGA cable.
onto a Goo painted (CRT white- from my CRT) 92x54" screen
w/ good to above average light control.

I normally read through a thread before posting but this thread is 32 pages.
Can someone tell me what seems to be the suggested adjustments that I can make (without buying a colorimeter)

also if I just enter the recommended settings into the service control menu is there real risk?

Please advice,
thanks,
Jon

bump

Look a few posts back and at the bottom of ROne's post, he links to his tweak document. Keep in mind the source he's using...HTPC, HDMI, and L2. Those may not be what you are using. Start with his living or his creative cinema and then you need to adjust the color on your own. Use AVIA or DVE and do the full tweaks from there. If you want other settings, I would do a search on something like "B =" or "contrast =" etc... and you should find a bunch. You can also search for posts by krasmuzik as he has some very good insight on how to tweak color etc... His color palet idea had a HUGE impact on how good my setup looks. You also may just want to start with the base CC or Living and go at it with AVIA. Save one of those and see if they look better because gray scale for ROne may not be what it should be for your setup. The problem with using someone's grayscale settings is that those really have to be adjusted on your own and only with proper devices. It's nearly impossible to do by sight and using someone's grayscale settings might not be that good since your screen material is probably different as well as room color and light. Since every room can be different and every screen is different, using someone's settings can be sort of useless for you unless your room, lighting, and screen are exactly the same. Even a little difference in ambient light can totally change the optimal settings. With your paint, it also matters what the base color was etc...

After you try a few settings, pick the best one and then do a full run through with AVIA. Then load up the color management tool with a color palet from AVIA and then use the gels to tweak the color tests. There's no real way to get perfect color without the Color Managment Tool. Again, refer to krasmuzik for ideas on how to use it.

I'm not sure what you are referring to in regards to entering the settings into the service menu. I can't recall reading about anyone doing that and I'm not sure anyone would want to even if they could, since you have 4 user spots to save custom setups in. You really do not want to mess with any of the presets. If for whatever reason you figure out how to do that and make changes there, make sure to write the original settings down as the service menu may not have a reset. At any rate, I wouldn't do that even if you could. ROne's guide has information on how to tone down the auto-iris and that will be very useful as well for some of the bright setups.

Hey guys, I know this is my first post but I've searched all over the forums for an answer to my question. I just moved from the Z1 to Z4, and have been blown away by the picture quality. Simply stunning. I have tweaked it with eagles4 setting, then used DVE to finalize to make it look nearly perfect.

My problem is that on both the HDMI as well as composite (to run the Wii until the component cables come in) inputs, I have this odd rainbow effect on my screen. It is not like the DLP one, but it is about a dozen lines of rainbows going horizontally across the entire screen. This can be best seen during bright/white shots. It is definitely coming from the projector and not something to do with the screen itself. Any ideas? It doesn't ruin the experience, but other people can definitely see this on the screen as well, so it is something I want to fix. I might try to take some pics of it later tonight, but I don't know if it will show up or not on the picture since they're fairly faint, but can still be seen by the eye.
Well I think I might've figured out my problem I am referring to. I forgot to mention one big thing which is I am using a microperfed screen from Stewart (StudioTek 130). I think what I am seeing is a moire effect pattern, kind of like in this picture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:TVscreen.jpg). It doesn't look as bad as the picture shows it, but it is nearly the same.

Does anyone use the Z4 with a microperfed screen? Has anyone experienced a moire effect with it?

kras wrote eariler

Then you have the HDMI L1 and L2 - I tried to share what I found it was expecting then there were conflicting confusing reports. So rather than say just set it to this - better to say just adjust for whatever makes BTB visible in calibration.

He then writes

Yes the BlackerThanBlack bar is only there so you can see it to calibrate it away - makes it easier - and with digital it is the only way to be bit perfect since the source DVD's contain this footroom. You want to eliminate the footroom on the PJ not the source as there is more bits to work with.

To clarify the above staements then I must try to see the three black bars in a test disc then calibrate the third bar out in whatever setting allows this to occur be it L1 or L2.

correct!

Though AVIA does not have a BTB bar - DVE does.

Question though. Will L1 even pass the BTB since it's range starts at 16 instead of 0? Which then leads me to the question if it doesn't and most DVD's aren't mastered to L2 levels and need the footroom hidden, why the need to see the BTB bar? I guess this entire BTB and L1/L2 thing still confuses me. I don't fully understand why set to L2 if DVD's aren't made to take advantage of those ranges. Won't that mean that the levels won't properly reflect what the DVD was engineered to display if you set to L2? Or maybe it's that you are hiding the range when you make the 3rd bar go away in L2...but then why see the bar in the first place? Just use L1 and never see the bar. :) I'm still confused!

It is just an extra check - you can dial in the near blacks so they are not black just as well - this is the way AVIA does it since they know some things will not pass BTB. Throw in the BTB so they are just black and even easier to bracket your adjustment.

There are signal processing reasons why you want to save any clipping to the last possible step.

I am full circle, again.
After having to take the projector down for some contractor work I have remounted and recalibrated it.
Yikes!
The ramp test is off again as it was way back in this thread for my hdmi connection.
I can calibrate out the 3rd black bar in the other test screens but this test has the last four brightest segments crushed together no matter what I try to correct it.
I thought I saw a problem with peoples faces in the light, were very blotchy and this is the proof.
When this happend previous I eventually went back to component and a while later the hdmi normaled with this test.
It is so strange this should happen. Again!
Must be something with the digital connection, very frustrating.

Are you sure you went back to your user memory when you switch inputs? It may have remembered that you are on the presets memory instead.

I tried all user and projector settings and turned the contrast and bright up and down in relation to each other on different presents and set user memories. The user memories are still intact and the correct one was chosen for the correct input.

I am going to try the component again as in the past to see if this magically corrects when I change back it as it has in the past.

The one side of the projected image is not square either. It appears to bow slightly on the right hand side and no amount of fussing can get the entire image on the screen. I have reduced the size of the image with the zoom ring and it appears to be some sort of new problem. Expanding the image to its proper size results in an image too large on the bottom left spilling onto the border and not large enough on the lower right leaving a gap between image and border. The vertical line between bottom right and top right is slightly bowed also in relation to all other borders of the image which are straight and true.

This is just a way to blow off steam between tweaks, ..., well back to it.


Lessons learned:

Dont move the projector. Ever.

The ramp test is good now that I have disconnected and reconnected, as before way back in this thread. The third black bar is NOT visible as before. It appears I get either get one or the other, not both, as before. This is either a problem of the projector or DVD player or spirits.

The latest problem of the slightly bowed image descibed above is still present .

I will leave things as is try not to notice anything else and just watch.

Question:

From the same source: is the PQ on the Z4 better if connected via the PC - HD15 connector or via the HDMI connector? (or no difference)

I've found no real difference. I'm going with the HDMI only because that's the cable I have running through the ceiling while my VGA cable I just connected running across the floor just to see how it was and to see if it was worth the hassle to fish through the pipe! It wasn't as far as I could tell. Seeing them side by side might be a different story but switching between the two it seemed the same. On another PC it could be different as well, as it might not be the same from video card to video card too.

Well, After much thought and some luck, I came accross a Used (1 yr used, 500 hours) Sanyo Z4 and a New Extra bulb on the "auction site".
Price qoutes are forbidden, so lets just say it cost me a hundred more than my X1 cost me 4 years ago.
I am impatiently waiting for it to arrive, hopefully by the end of the week.
While I wait for the projector and the HDMI cable to arrive, I have a few questions which i am hoping the experts will be able to answer.
First off, here is what my current set up in like:
Screen:
My current setup is a 106" Dalite Highpower screen witha 1.3 Gain, viewing from 17 feet.
The projector will be shelf mounted behind the seating area.
Ambient light:
The room is pretty much light controled during most of the day except a 2-3 hour window when the sun hits at a certain angle and even the drapes are unable to keep all the light out. 95% of the viewing will be done in almost dark room.
Source material:
100% of the source is either 720P/1080i HD from Timewarner HD DVR Box(HDMI) or a Progressive scan DVD player (component).


Ok, now the questions..

1- With my set up, room condition and Source material in mind do you guys think that I will be ok with using the 106" Dalite Highpower screen or will I need a screen better suited for higher contrast?

2- Assuming that the previous owner has not caliberated the projector and saved the setting, what Video and lamp mode woudl better suit my High Gain screen and viewing distance?

3- I WILL have to use the Zoom feature as well as the manual lense shift, both up/down and sideways, to set the projector perfectly for my screen. How much loss in Video quality and light output is affected by what I am about to do, and what I expect a lot of people end up doing.


I started reading the Z4 Tweak thread an hour ago and am barely at page 9 of 33.
Coming form the X1, the amount of caliberation settings on the Z4 are kinda overwhelming.
Am I looking at as much tweaking as some people have done to get a decent picture out of the box?
I do have an Avia DVD and can tweak some of the things based on my limited experience and knowledge, can I expect to eventually have a failry well tweaked picture or will I have to use a "professional".
I have learnt alot in the last 3-4 years that I have visited this site regularly, and am hoping to conitnue the learning process.
Looking forward to your replies and answers,

thank you

kam, sorry I don't have time now to answer all your questions. The Da-lite High Power material is very high gain -- 2.8, but is retroreflective. Meaning, the light travels back to the point of origin. Therefore, you will get the benefit of that gain when the projector is table mounted. There will still be some gain, as well as the benefit of reducing room reflections when ceiling mounted due to the retroreflective material.

In short, whether ceiling mounted or not, the high power screen will help with ANSI contrast (not on off) as it will reduce room reflections much like a high-contrast screen.

Hey Kam--you are way too sweaty about the Z4. The projector will do a nice job in your environment without a lot of hassle. You can also zoom down inside the screen dimensions. Try all the presets for picture quality and then, if you have enough brightness, you can reset only the lamp to "economy". The biggest problem you may have is the "Keystone" distortion caused by using a lot of lens offset. You might get a projector mount that puts the projector at the middle of the screen for zero offset if possible. Use a second screen to keep out the daylight.

This is the problem I am experiencing. The picture is no longer square. The keystone adjustment is OFF.

The top of the picture if zoomed in is sloping down left to right. The bottom of the picture is curving up from left to right. The right side of the picture is curving to the right less at the bottom more as it goes to the top. If I expand to fill the screen, I get overshoot on the top right.

Letterbox material the lower box gets larger from left to right. The upper box is the opposite smaller from left to right. I tried to upload a picture but the file was too large, I shall try later.

The other problem has to do with blacker than black information. If I set the DVD player to "RGB enhance" BTB is visible but the 4 lightest bars on the ramp test are crushed together and cannot be adjusted to display properly. Any other setting of the DVD player through HDMI will show the ramp test properly but not the btb information. I have 3 settings to choose from other than enhance, normal and YCbCr (4:4:4) and YCbCr (4:2:2)

The manual states that only enhance is full range 0-255 the other are 16-235.

Hey Kiwi2000, is there any chance your projector may have been turned/bumped/nudged a little bit to the left? (i.e. is your mount secure?) Verify your projector is perpendicular to the screen, or just wiggle the projector right/left a bit to see if that solves the problem. (I ran into this when installing my proj, gotta tighten those screws good)

Reid in pa
I can only wish it was that simple, but thanks.

I have twisted and turned for a few weeks now because of the slope on the top and bottom and right side of the screen it does not matter which way I tilt,turn the projector.
It is not so bad if I zoom out over the frame viewing 16:9 but letterbox is annoying.

I guess No.3 LCD projector is going to be returned soon.

I was really hoping there would be a master reset that would align everything back as it was.

I have deinterlacing artifacts via s-video from my dish receiver...changing progressive mode (L1, L2, FILM) has little to no effect. Over at projector central, Evan original said that, that is a weakness on the Z4, but then he retracted his statement about the Z4 scaling on the Z5 review and said the error was in setup...does anyone know what he meant by that? I would really like to improve my scaling. Thanks!

Maybe they were too hard on the Z4 in this respect due to a setup error. They don't really explain further, so you'll have to e-mail them for further details. I never thought 480i looked quite as horrible as they made it out to be compared to most other HD devices (which also look bad), but at 106", not many projectors are going to make 480i look all that great anyway. It's all different shades of fair to poor. Even the digital signal of Dish can't squeeze much out of that resolution. 480i looks terrible on my 51" Sony CRT HDTV and it looks pretty bad even on my 37" 1080p LCD. I've had Dish Network and there is little you can do to make it look much better via SVideo at 480i, especially on such a big screen. One thing that will help a bit is to get the Dish Network HD box and then force it to upconvert everthing to 720p via HDMI or component. That will be your best bet although it still won't looked great. It'll smooth out the picture and eliminate some of the garbage, but it will also make things look a bit soft too in the process. It's always a trade-off when displaying 480i on an HDTV. Upconvert and have a smoother picture that's a tad soft or send 480i and have far more grain in the picture.

I think 480i looks good except when there is motion like in sports, then it seems as if the scaler is too slow to react properly. I would email Evan for clarification but I can't seem to find an email address on the website.

I located the email address...I'll email him and see what his reply is on that.

Even HD sports has a fair amount of motion blur on the Z4, but that's pretty standard for LCD. It doesn't bother some people as much as others much like DLP's rainbow effect. While I do see it, it doesn't bother me all that much. Even during movies if the camera moves quickly it does get a bit of blur. It's no worse and actually a bit better than many flat panels and projecters I've seen. My 1080p Westinghouse 37" LCD TV has a fair amount of motion blur as well. Some people rant on and on about it while for others, it's not as big a problem. It just goes with the LCD technology as even the very best LCD's have some amount. Setting your STB HD box to upconvert 480i to 720p does help with the blur since it's sending a progressive stream that doesn't need to be deinterlaced.

I picked up an open-box z4 from b&h photo (demo unit with 5 hours). I've tried different presets and rone's settings and I must say that I'm unimpressed with the crispness. I'm using an htpc (aiw9000pro) with a dvi-hdmi cable at 1280x720 (no powerstrip, just stock catalyst 5.11 drivers).
Let's give an example of windows explorer with a list of files in the right pane (white background, black letters). With my old infocus x1 (running at 800x480 with powerstrip) the letters were very crisp. An L was very sharp and clean. With the z4, for some reason, an L seems to be using some of the adjacent pixels and it just looks fuzzy. I'm sitting about 10' from a 74" diagonal, parkland plastic, screen. I can't AB it, since I haven't had the x1 for a year or so, but it's noticeably different. I am using some lens shift, but nothing excessive. I've read about convergence and alignment issues, and I'm wondering if this is what I'm seeing.
Is there a place to see a manufacture date on the pj? It has a 3 year warranty, so it should still have a year or two left, if I need to do something.
JJ

Well, I did some tests and it seems like the convergence issue that other people are talking about is happening on my z4.
While it isn't as far off as some others, it is very distracting to me. I didn't know that lcd had such issues.
Is this just a single pixel off, which would probably not be worthy of replacement?
What about the panel adjustment option in the menu?
Are there any firmware updates for the z4?
JJ

That's awful. Mine has no convergence error, and is sharp as a tack.

Do you think that is considerable?
It looks like it's only 1px off, but it looks, to me like red is 1px up and to the right and green is 1px down and to the left. If that's the case, then it's a full 3x3 off.
JJ

If mine was off that much I would be sending it back. I don't think the panel adjustment will correct that. The panels are out of alignment. which can't be user adjusted.

Here is an update to my pesky problems.

The top of the picture if zoomed in is sloping down left to right. The bottom of the picture is curving up from left to right. The right side of the picture is curving to the right less at the bottom more as it goes to the top. If I expand to fill the screen, I overshoot on the top right.

Letterbox material the lower box gets larger from left to right. The upper box is the opposite smaller from left to right.

With the help of my dealer who helped troubleshoot the problem. I removed the pj from the cieling mount and used the invert feature on the z4. Interestingly the fault remained on the right side. This could only mean that the pj was not at fault.

The bracket securing the fixed wallmount screen had pulled away from the wall on the right side. This bracket did not run the entire length of the screen so the farther away from the bracket the screen was the more the screen pulled out
causing the problems I displayed in the post above. I secured the bracket with additional screws and that problem is now,solved!

Problem two,
The other problem has to do with blacker than black information. If I set the DVD player to "RGB enhance" BTB is visible but the 4 lightest bars on the ramp test are crushed together and cannot be adjusted to display properly.

I auditioned an oppo 971 and this corrected the problem noted above, BUT, caused another problem that had to do with the oppo itself. I had not read up on the oppo players in the dvd section I only knew they were highly regarded.

Any way, I am now shopping for another player. I considered the Tosiba a2 hd dvd player but now I have read that the oppo 980 bested it in many a catagory. Has anyone tried both of these players with the z4?

Comments?

I wasn't too far off when I said that the wall or screen probably wasn't level several months back. :cool: Glad you got that 'straightened out'. :)

As for the Oppo vs. Toshiba A2, it's pretty hard to compare the two since one's strength is upconverting 480 DVD's while the other's strength is that it plays HD-DVD's. If comparing only the upconvertion capabilities, I'm sure the Oppo is superior, but throw in HD-DVD's into the mix and it's a totally new ball game. I've seen HD-DVD's and for properly transferred movies, they are far superior to upconverted 480 to 1080p. I guess it just depends on how you are going to use it. If you have no intentions of buying HD-DVD's then go with the Oppo. It's hard to say how much difference you'd see in the upconversion between the two. If the difference was fairly small, the trade-off of getting HD-DVD might tilt in favor of the A2. If I had the extra money, I'd go with the xA2 as it's upconversion is supposed to be very very good. I guess it should be at almost double the price! Here's what I read in S&V about the xA2.

"But where the HD-XA2 completely surprised me was in the superiority of its upconversion of standard-definition DVDs. The combination of 1080p output and the stellar Silicon Optix deinterlacing and noise processing provided stunning results that can actually make exploring your DVD collection tolerable even after you've been spoiled by Blu-ray and HD DVD."

Maybe you can get the Toshiba from a place where you can return it and compare it with the Oppo first hand.

You Sir, were right on.

But as stated below we do not have access to 1080p so that makes the quote moot.

The combination of 1080p output and the stellar Silicon Optix deinterlacing and noise processing provided stunning results that can actually make exploring your DVD collection tolerable even after you've been spoiled by Blu-ray and HD DVD."

If comparing 720 on the Oppo and 720 on the Tosihba that is another consideration.

Anyone using the oppo 981 with their z4? I've asked in the z5 thread, and nobody's responding... If so, what combined DVD/Z4 settings are you using?

You Sir, were right on.

But as stated below we do not have access to 1080p so that makes the quote moot.



If comparing 720 on the Oppo and 720 on the Tosihba that is another consideration.

Oh definitely true to a point. It all depends on how well the XA2 upconverts standard DVD's to 720p or 1080i compared to the Oppo. If that quote from Sound & Vision Magazine is only refering to it's 1080p upconvertion and it's 720p conversion stinks, then yes you are right. And again, I was only speaking of the higher priced XA2 not the A2 for which I'm fairly certain the Oppo out paces for upconvertion of SD DVD's.

Either way, my main point wasn't that the A2 or XA2 blows away the Oppo for upconverting SD DVD's. Honestly I wasn't trying to imply that. I was just saying it was no slouch (be it only at 1080p as far as we know) and that if the difference between even the A2 vs. the Oppo were fairly close, the addition of HD-DVD might swing me towards that direction if HD-DVD was important to me. If you are only interested in upconverting, then that definitely changes things and the Oppo needs to be strongly considered. I have seen both HD-DVD and upconverted SD DVD on the projector and HD-DVD's that are produced well are superior to the upconverted 480 counterpart by a pretty good margin, even at 720p. Even the Oppo can't best a properly configured HTPC. Bottom line is that HD-DVD has 1080 lines of information while a standard DVD has only 420, so even at 720p, the HD-DVD will look considerabely better than will any upconverted 480 DVD. If that wasn't the case we'd have little use for true HD...just upconvert 480 and be done with it. Displaying an HD-DVD at 720p is not any different than sending it 1080i or 720p from an HD cable box which looks spectacular compared to upconverted SD. Neither my HTPC nor my Zenith DVB318 can match the PQ I get from HD-HBO (obvioulsy not all movies are created equal keep in mind) converted from 1080i to 720p.

So in the end, the considerations about HD-DVD still ring very true even if you have no access to 1080p. I kinda assumed that since we are speaking of the Z4 which is 720p. :) To be honest, I think that's where the true consideration comes in. Uponverstion is great but what you need to figure out is if the better upconversion of the Oppo of SD DVD's is enough to eliminate the possibility of playing HD-DVD's with true 1080 lines of data instead of interpolated from 480.

I was using the Oppo 971 at 720p with my Z4. It was excellent.

I switched to the Toshiba XA1 and found that sd dvd's were even more impressive. But I prefer keeping the output at 1080i with the Toshiba. It appears sharper to me than at 720p.

And, of course, I can watch hd-dvd with the Toshiba. Sold the Oppo 971 with no regrets.

Shelly

Yeah I find that 1080i looks better with my Zenith DVB318 as well. I know the DVB318 has some known PQ issues at 720p so that might add to that result too. I only use it in the case where a DVD has issues on my HTPC. Nothing beats that via TheaterTek or MCE. I want to try the XBOX 360 HD-DVD drive on my PC which works with the new Power-DVD. You need an NVIDIA 7600 GT or above for it to work from what I've read. Anyway, it's supposed to look great and at $199 it's a very affordable route to HD-DVD for a home theater.

If that wasn't the case we'd have little use for true HD...just upconvert 480 and be done with it. Displaying an HD-DVD at 720p is not any different than sending it 1080i or 720p from an HD cable box which looks spectacular compared to upconverted SD. Neither my HTPC nor my Zenith DVB318 can match the PQ I get from HD-HBO (obvioulsy not all movies are created equal keep in mind) converted from 1080i to 720p.

I added cable hd earlier this year and have gotten rid of it already as I did not see much of a difference if at all from upconverted dvd and it was full of motion artifacts which I discussed on another section of the forum. I viewed a music program which I own on sd dvd on hd cable and compared them. Not much difference but as you say some hd movies on were exceptional. I will try agian soon though with a newer cable box.

With the Toshiba you have the whole format thing also.

Shelly wrote,

I was using the Oppo 971 at 720p with my Z4. It was excellent.

To Shelly, didn't you notice the error with the 971 in that it could not fill the screen? I have the replies from oppo that state it was a design error with the memtek chip that caused it. They state the 981 does not have the error because it uses a different chip design. I had the overscan on 0 for all sources except the oppo which I had set to max which of course adds error.

Shelly, didn't you notice the error with the 971 in that it could not fill the screen? I have the replies from oppo that state it was a design error with the memtek chip that caused it. They state the 981 does not have the error because it uses a different chip design. I had the overscan on 0 for all sources except the oppo which I had set to max which of course adds error.

The error you are talking about is Pixel Cropping. If she had overscan set higher than 2 or 3 she probably wouldn't have seen it, asuming the Oppo has it. My Zenith DVB318 has 5 pixel crop too which is a bit of a bummer. I just bump overscan to 2 and it's taken care of. My HTPC has none. :) I looked at the DVD Benchmark website and according to them, the 971H has no pixel cropping. I was surprised you mentioned pixel cropping because one of the stengths of the Oppo is that it has no pixel cropping. I wonder if a firmware update fixed that from initial units? This is the first I've heard of the Oppo having any sort of issue like that.

I added cable hd earlier this year and have gotten rid of it already as I did not see much of a difference if at all from upconverted dvd and it was full of motion artifacts which I discussed on another section of the forum. I viewed a music program which I own on sd dvd on hd cable and compared them. Not much difference but as you say some hd movies on were exceptional. I will try agian soon though with a newer cable box..

Well...then there's the HD sporting events, nature programs, live events, prime time shows etc... Really, there's no comparison so maybe it was your cable box. I can't imagine anyone viewing a live sporting event or a program such as CSI-Miami and not seeing much difference. Not trying to give you a hard time, but it's really night and day and I'm sure most would agree. Now if you are talking strictly movies on channels like HD-HBO, HD-NET movies, etc...and comparing to upconverted SD DVD, then it is indeed hit or miss. From my experience however, it's far more hit than miss. I've compared many programs I have on DVD to the HD version via cable and there's not too many times where I've found that the upconverted DVD is just as good. I have a RUSH concert on DVD that was recorded with 15 HD cameras. I also have it saved on my DVR in HD and I have to say the difference is significant. I've been doing HDTV for well over 7 years and honestly, I can't imagine getting rid of my HD channels in lew of a player that upconverts DVD's. If movies were the only thing you watched, then maybe I could see HD cable not being worth the money yet still many movies should look better. Add in the rest and to me it's a no brainer. I think most here would agree that HD is drop dead gorgeous on the Z4.

Let us know how you think your new HD cable box looks. :)

To Shelly, didn't you notice the error with the 971 in that it could not fill the screen? I have the replies from oppo that state it was a design error with the memtek chip that caused it. They state the 981 does not have the error because it uses a different chip design. I had the overscan on 0 for all sources except the oppo which I had set to max which of course adds error.

Not my experience at all.

I ran the 971 with the dvi to hdmi adaptor cable supplied by Oppo to a long run of hdmi to the Z4.

My 106" diagnal screen was always filled side to side, and with 16:9 movies, side to side and top to bottom. Never heard of the design error.

By the way, when I had the Oppo in the system, I also had the Comcast hd dvr. Hd from Comcast ( both the premium movie channels as well as the sports, networks and Discovery et al) was mind blowing, more detailed than any dvd and more detailed than what I can see in real life.

When I added the Toshiba hd dvd player, I also removed Comcast from this system, keeping it only in my second den system.

Shelly

Sorry, it was the 970 not the 971 I tried and the firmware was up to date.

I did not say I could not see a difference in hd television programs like csi or whatever. I merely stated that one music dvd I owned upconverted to 720 on the dvd player looked as good as the same music program on the hd cable box. It was very suprising! I did not issue a blanket statement that everything looks the same, of course there is a huge difference csi hd over standard analog cable of the same program. The movies looked a treat on hd cable. I had an older model the motorola 6200 the next one will be the latest 6416 pvr. Maybe it will make a difference.

Basement dude let me know if you try out the 981, I will do the same.

I'm using a 35' monoprice HDMI to my Z5... with the 981 it looks great... though this is my first projector and I've never seen HD on this proj...

I buillt a fneasy 06 screen and it looks great!

Sorry, it was the 970 not the 971 I tried and the firmware was up to date.

I did not say I could not see a difference in hd television programs like csi or whatever. I merely stated that one music dvd I owned upconverted to 720 on the dvd player looked as good as the same music program on the hd cable box. It was very suprising! I did not issue a blanket statement that everything looks the same, of course there is a huge difference csi hd over standard analog cable of the same program. The movies looked a treat on hd cable. I had an older model the motorola 6200 the next one will be the latest 6416 pvr. Maybe it will make a difference.

Basement dude let me know if you try out the 981, I will do the same.

Gotcha..understood. I was wondering why you couldn't see the diff. Glad you could. Sorry to imply that you made a blanket statement. This quote made it seem as such however:

I added cable hd earlier this year and have gotten rid of it already as I did not see much of a difference if at all from upconverted dvd and it was full of motion artifacts which I discussed on another section of the forum. .

I wouldn't have figured one DVD would be the reason to get rid of it so it came off as a generalization. No way to know you were speaking only about one DVD. At any rate, glad to hear you enjoyed the HD content. Why did you get rid of it then? It is true some HD presentations aren't very good, but more are than aren't. Even some of the older movies on HD-Net Movies look quite nice. With the Z4 properly tuned, you are right, HD movies can be a real treat for the eyes! :)

Anyway, I know different boxes can make a difference, but even more so different cable companies who do different amounts of compression and have different bandwidth constraints make a big difference in PQ. Hopefully your cable company can bring you a good quality box and and provide good bandwidth and data rates. For me, half the fun of the Z4 is watching live HD sporting events and shows like Heroes etc...

Good morning : I Need to know if z4 with z5 exists much difference in the quality of the image . I depend on its answers to be able to buy and join me to this family. thanks in advance.
Alexandra

Well...
I sent off the z4 and a support guy called me saying that everything looked fine to him. He said that red was 1/2 pixel off and he adjusted it the best he could. I told him how the edges of the text wasn't crisp and how I was upgrading from an x1. He said that's just kind of how it is with 3 panel lcd and there isn't much that I can do about it. Of course, everything should look fine in video, but I'm kind of put off on lcd if it's always going to look this uncrisp.
Let me qualify this...
It isn't bad, but it is noticeably lower in quality than the svga x1 dlp that I had a year or two ago. It is higher resolution and widescreen, but I think my next pj will probably be dlp, again.
JJ