It looks like I’m also part of this minority. I’ve been reading this thread form the beginning and had reservations on posting because of how the op and others have been ridiculed for their interpretation of what their eyes see. I thought we would have learned something form history by now. Anyway…

Thank you to Yoda1, dalandis and others.

ChrisWiggles is on point. Thanks!

Here’s my best attempt at an explanation and some other factors that may help to alleviate this problem for you. I am not a professional of plasmas or phosphors type technologies, however I have an understanding on how these technologies work from what I’ve read and can use my eyes to see the resulting effect of these technologies. If you have information that debunks my theory, please educate me.

This is all my opinion...

It’s phosphors decay with a twist?
The worst condition is when a white pixel changes to black. (Either a lending or tailing edge of motion) One plasma pixel consist of three phosphors, red, green and blue (RGB). On the pixels decent from white to black each phosphor needs to discharge. (Or reverse: On the pixels accent from black to white each phosphor needs to charge) As this happens, the fully light red phosphor begins its journey to black, first passing as pink, then red, then dark red and finally black. The same holds true for green and blue. They most likely fall to black at similar rates but I believe red and blue discharge faster. Side note: The human eye can’t see the full range of blue. So at mid point, red and blue discharging slightly quicker, green at half brightness, but your inability to make out the full range of blue, causes you to see more of a mix with green, some red and very little blue. If you mixed these colors, you have a Yellow/Yellow Green.

Fact: Phosphors decay at certain rates. (afterglow duration)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphor_thermometry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphor

Fact: I see this phenomenon, whether it’s my eyes or my plasma.

Why we see this and others don’t? I’m not sure. Personally, I’m able to see things with perfect clarity when they are moving at certain rates of high speed. For example: Watching cars go by at 155mph, I will see a motion blur. At 160mph, I can make out the car for several frames with perfect clarity. At 165mph, a blur again. So I think we’re sensitive to the speed at which these phosphors decay. Like, being able to see the mixture of colors as a yellow/yellow green several times as the phosphors decays. Hence creating what looks to be a pulsing/strobing effect on the edges of the moving objects.

The first time a watched Sin City on my 42” Panasonic EDTV, the TV was about 2 weeks old, I thought my eyes were going to bleed and my head explode. (I haven’t tried watching it since) Also, I can not play any first person video games on my plasma without getting a headache, for me that is the worst. At first I figured it was just my plasma or the source, but after going to a few friends and family members houses, I saw this same phenomenon on every single plasma with different type of source materials. Anytime white meets black with a lot of movement the condition to me is very obvious and hard to ignore. My quest began…

Here are a few things that I’ve found that have helped to alleviate this problem for me.
1) Time. The problem seems to diminish as the plasma logs some hours or I’m just getting accustom to it.
2) The plasma’s pixel pitch. The smaller the better. Pixel Pitch (H x V)(42” EDTV 1.08 x 1.08 mm, 42” HDTV 0.90 x 0.67 mm, 50" HDTV 0.81 x 0.81 mm) I’m very interested in Pioneer’s new 50” 1080p. The density of pixels should create for very small pixels for a 50”.
3) Set the contrast down. Shorten the distance between white and black.
4) Sit further away.
5) Create ambient lighting. (Bias lighting)

or Wait for SED Technology?

I'd think as the contrast ratios become larger (blacker blacks and whiter whites) and if decay times stay at the same rate, more people will see this condition. The two examples given by Yoda1 (Post #181) and dalandis screen shot (Post #195) are the best examples of the condition I've seen, but imagine seeing that on a 42 or 50 inch plasma. For me plasma is still the best in PQ for sizes 37” and up and I'm planning on buying a 50 or 58 in screen soon.

That’s my take. I only wish I was a better writer to help get my point across.
You stay classy AVS!
Thanks,
-Mike

I think Mike has some very good suggestions and basically mirrors what seems intuitive to me, based on the years I've spent using a plasma. With a good burn-in period, proper backlighting, and a much lower contrast ratio, perhaps the effect can be completely reduced.

I was thinking though, and I disagree with the phosphour decay time being the culprit for what you are seeing. At first it makes sense as this has been well-documented for CRT's. But as was explained in the SED thread here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7642157&&#post7642157 , this should only affect CRT's in that they actually rely on decay times to maintain an image whereas Plasma's do not. This is also explained in our very own FAQ here on AVS: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6106839&&#post6106839 . Each sub-pixel is turned on and off a great number of times per frame, so it is clear that they react and decay in a much, much, shorter timeframe than would be needed to see the effect on the timescale of an entire picture frame.

Now I'm not questioning what you are seeing, but only why you are seeing it. It seems to me that interlacing could be a main cause of what's being seen. For those with a PC connection, I think it would be worth trying a 60 Hz Native Resolution VGA connection which should ensure good scan-rate sync and also eliminate the TV's scalar. Also ensure that your video drivers are set to sync each frame properly and not display partially-rendered frames. I play Oblivion on my Panny 50" and honestly have noticed no picture artifacts of those sorts at all. And if it's that obvious, I can't understand why I don't notice it at all after over 100 hours of gaming. Maybe eyes and phisiology but that seems unlikely to me. Maybe an issue with the Panny scalar, subipixel control, de-interlacer, or MPEG noise reduction I'm thinking. The VGA connection should remove most of those as variables.

You can see it in the video as a related phosphor decay issue. If you call that "junk" and unverifiable when I explained exactly what it is that you were seeing in the video and why, I wouldn't be surprised if someone did post an image of this that you would also call it unverifiable "junk"

The reason it's difficult to capture with a camera is the same reason it's difficult to capture rainbows on a DLP display: the artifact is temporal in nature, so you need to have a camera fast enough, and you need to move the camera to capture the effect. This is difficult to do, and you would likely call it nonsense because it would be a screenshot taken while rapidly moving the camera and I'm sure you would just equate the result as "camera issues and blurriness."

The last point is, who cares what you think? You don't see this problem. There is no onus on anyone else to prove to you individually that this is a relevant behavior of the display. What would that achieve? Nothing. You can't see this anyway, so why do you even care? You don't care, you just want to continue to flame the experienced members here, and continue to fart on this thread with your snide remarks and unnecessary demands which do nothing to help those who are having fatigue/distraction issues with this artifact.

You are free to begin making constructive posts on this forum at any time.It's also a perceived effect, making it personal. How the images are displayed is one thing, how they are perceived by individuals is quite another. Unless a graphical artist modifies a few screenshots for those of us that do not perceive the effect, we can only imagine it--which is why, in the interest of understanding the issue--and not dismissing it--I pressed for more concise descriptions earlier in the thread.

Has anyone with the issue tried:

-Bias lighting in addition to controlled ambient lighting conditions?
-Covering one eye at a time to see if the effect changes?
-Cutting the chroma on a color picture to see if the effect becomes more pronounced?

Each sub-pixel is turned on and off a great number of times per frame, so it is clear that they react and decay in a much, much, shorter timeframe than would be needed to see the effect on the timescale of an entire picture frame.
Indeed. With a CRT, phosphor decay compensates for the limitation of really only having one active pixel to paint an entire screen combined with our persistence of vision to make images that appear to be moving. With a plasma, every pixel is simultaneously active and our persistence of vision is also used to perceive the brightness of each pixel--the more often a given pixel is pulsed over a given interval, the brighter it is perceived to be for that interval. It appears that some individuals can actually perceive artifacts of this mechanism under certain conditions.

The reason it's difficult to capture with a camera is the same reason it's difficult to capture rainbows on a DLP display: the artifact is temporal in nature, so you need to have a camera fast enough, and you need to move the camera to capture the effect. This is difficult to do, and you would likely call it nonsense because it would be a screenshot taken while rapidly moving the camera and I'm sure you would just equate the result as "camera issues and blurriness."


OK, let me digest this again:

It's hard to get more examples but look at this one sshot and video?
Is this one example an anomoly, a one in a million lucky shot?
I'm just trying to get down to the evidence, that's all.

Solid comments Felgar. I also have Oblivion for my 360 (720p via component) and at certain times and points in the game I see this phenomenon. GRAW in the worst game I’ve seen so far. In PGR3 I don’t see it hardly as much, however I’m focused on the center of the screen (the road) were there is little movement. Back to GRAW, in the training mission for example, if I’d look back and forth continuously the screen background would be like smeared yellow/green over the entire background. Some areas would be more concentrated (brighter yellow) when others, so as you look to one side the concentrated area (brighter yellow) would be visible to me as pulsing in different areas of the screen as the movement is occurring…if that makes any sense. If I want to play these games I just switch the my 34” Sony XBR and have no problems at all.Now I'm not questioning what you are seeing, but only why you are seeing it. It seems to me that interlacing could be a main cause of what's being seen. I can’t see how this could be an interlacing problem. Unless I’m missing your point. I’ve sent progressive signals via HDMI and component and the results were the same. Contrast seems to be the problem.For those with a PC connection, I think it would be worth trying a 60 Hz Native Resolution VGA connection which should ensure good scan-rate sync and also eliminate the TV's scalar. Also ensure that your video drivers are set to sync each frame properly and not display partially-rendered frames.Would the 360’s VGA cables do as you have described? I believe it outputs 1366x768 @ 60Hz. I don’t believe this has anything to do with a panny plasma in particular. I’ve tested Sin City and GRAW on other manufactures like Samsung, LG and Pioneer with the same results.Maybe eyes and phisiology but that seems unlikely to me.Unfortunately I think this has everything to do with it. People respond differently to sounds, taste, touch and how their eyes perceive light. Some people can distinguish every instrument used in a concert by listening. I can not, however I can see machining defeats in the tuba or a loose string of a guitar from 40ft away. Sometimes things can be thought, other times it is an inherent ability.

I’m sure there are electronics that could measure what colors are created from a plasma pixel when it’s changing its color from white to black. I would guarantee that other colors would be a result of this transition when dealing with a RGB format. However I can’t prove this. This would only suggest that this is what we are seeing.

Thanks Felgar. I appreciate your help.

It's also a perceived effect, making it personal. How the images are displayed is one thing, how they are perceived by individuals is quite another. Agreed.Unless a graphical artist modifies a few screenshots for those of us that do not perceive the effect, we can only imagine it--which is why, in the interest of understanding the issue--and not dismissing it--I pressed for more concise descriptions earlier in the thread. I agree, however I believe some high speed cameras and video recording devices could capture this phenomenon. Some camera can capture things we can not see. I'll do my best to give you the most descriptive observation I can.
Has anyone with the issue tried:

-Bias lighting in addition to controlled ambient lighting conditions?
-Covering one eye at a time to see if the effect changes?
-Cutting the chroma on a color picture to see if the effect becomes more pronounced?I’ve tried a controlled ambient lighting and it does make a difference. Make the yellow/yellow green not as pronounced. I've not tried Bais lighting, but I'd think it would render only slightly better results.
Covered one eye at a time. I still can see the yellowish tint. No real change.
How would I cut the chroma on a color picture? I’m only able to adjusted the tint on my plasma. As I move the tint towards green the yellowish become much more green in color. If I go towards red the yellow only appears to become brighter.

-Mike

For people who don't see it, pop GR:AW or BF2:MC into your 360 - assuming you have one. Now go to either Rocky Cove in GR:AW or BridgeTooFar in BF2. Find a place where either buildings or trees are silhouetted against the sky, now move back and forth rapidly, see that yellow outline that follows the trees and buildings? That's it. I don't see it often, if ever, on TV or movies, but quite a bit on video games. Plasma's still my favorite technlogy, though, and i have no intent on ever using anything else until SED(not counting on it) or something else comes along years from now. I have a 42" 60u, bias lit, 500+ hours.

Please help me make a decision. I have seen trails on the panny on video content (mostly sports), but it's usually not a big deal. I am planning on buying the px4260u also, and I am a gamer. How often do you notice the trails? Is it all the time or just sometimes, and does it distract you from the game? Also People keep mentioning GRAW and Oblivion. Do other games have trails as bad or is it just certain games. How many games have you played on your 360 that you have noticed the trails. I almost never see trails when I go to the store and check out the panny on video content. It's games that has me worried. Also, do you usaully see the trails because you are looking for them or are they really in your face and noticable. I just don't want them to ruin the game experience for me. I don't mind seeing them occasionly.

Sorry for all the questions, but I really want a plasma as it has the best picture of any tech out there right now. I hope I don't have to go LCD.

People asking for pictures or videos of the problem need only to look a few pages back and download the video posted. About half way through the video you will see alot of white lights against darker background. Whenever the camera moves you see yellow smears at the edge of the lights. It's very easy to see, and will give you an idea. However if you don't want to know what it looks like, because once you do you will start seeing the trails because you know what to look for, then leave this thread and forget you ever heard of trails or rainbows and you will be happy.

Please help me make a decision. I have seen trails on the panny on video content (mostly sports), but it's usually not a big deal. I am planning on buying the px4260u also, and I am a gamer. How often do you notice the trails? Is it all the time or just sometimes, and does it distract you from the game? Also People keep mentioning GRAW and Oblivion. Do other games have trails as bad or is it just certain games. How many games have you played on your 360 that you have noticed the trails. I almost never see trails when I go to the store and check out the panny on video content. It's games that has me worried. Also, do you usaully see the trails because you are looking for them or are they really in your face and noticable. I just don't want them to ruin the game experience for me. I don't mind seeing them occasionly.

Sorry for all the questions, but I really want a plasma as it has the best picture of any tech out there right now. I hope I don't have to go LCD.

People asking for pictures or videos of the problem need only to look a few pages back and download the video posted. About half way through the video you will see alot of white lights against darker background. Whenever the camera moves you see yellow smears at the edge of the lights. It's very easy to see, and will give you an idea. However if you don't want to know what it looks like, because once you do you will start seeing the trails because you know what to look for, then leave this thread and forget you ever heard of trails or rainbows and you will be happy.

For me, looking for trails/yellow pulsing is not a matter of looking for them or not. I have no choice about it. When I owned the HP, there were times where I had to shut the TV off because the yellow pulsing/flashing was just too much for my eyes to take. At the time, I didn't own a 360 but I did play some Xbox games in 720p (MVP '05) and the trails were very noticeable. I also played God of War on the set ..I noticed the yellow flashes there as well.

The bias lighting and controlled ambient lighting has me intrigued, because as I said earlier, I do not notice this effect nearly as much in brightly-lit showrooms. The problem is, I like to watch TV at night, in bed, with the lights off. That's how I've been watching TV all my life and I don't intend to stop now.... it also happens to be the best way to enjoy the PQ of a plasma display (no glare, better contrast, etc).

Conan: for your own sake, I would buy any new tech from a store with a liberal return policy. It's the only way to be sure.

[EDIT]

If anyone knows how. Someone should make a simple video file with a black background and a white object going acroos the screen at various speeds. People can download the video and watch it on there plasma and then this discussion if this problem even exists can be put to rest.

Also, if you freeze frame some of these scenes you can clearly make out a yellow outling around the player models and other objects onscreen.

You have just confirmed that this is a source related issue. :rolleyes:

You have just confirmed that this is a source related issue. :rolleyes:

Has absolutely nothing to do with the source. Please read through this thread before posting.

Has absolutely nothing to do with the source. Please read through this thread before posting.

I got through post #184 before chiming in. :) If you can see the trailing blurs in slo-mo or while paused then wouldn't you agree that it's the source? :confused:

conan48, I can report back later with what I see for each of the my 360 games. But keep in mind many people use plasmas as their main gaming display and have no problems with this at all. The best thing you can do is play a PS2, Xbox or Xbox360 on a plasma and decide with your own eyes.
-Mike

I got through post #184 before chiming in. :) If you can see the trailing blurs in slo-mo or while paused then wouldn't you agree that it's the source? :confused:
My understanding is that the video being referenced is actually of a plasma screen showing the game... it's not source game material.

My understanding is that the video being referenced is actually of a plasma screen showing the game... it's not source game material.
I'm talking about this post:
About midway through the video, once the SWAT team gets inside the Casino, you see them taking cover and running past big white flourescent lights in the background. If you look closely as the camera pans past those big lights from left and right, you can see yellow blurring or trailing. It also happens on many other scenes but it's a bit more subtle. Also, if you freeze frame some of these scenes you can clearly make out a yellow outling around the player models and other objects onscreen. If I could, I would take stills and post them here, but i have no idea how to do something like that. If someone here sees what I'm talking about, and could take some screen caps of the effect as it's happening, that would be awesome.

...The bias lighting and controlled ambient lighting has me intrigued, because as I said earlier, I do not notice this effect nearly as much in brightly-lit showrooms. The problem is, I like to watch TV at night, in bed, with the lights off. That's how I've been watching TV all my life and I don't intend to stop now.... it also happens to be the best way to enjoy the PQ of a plasma display (no glare, better contrast, etc)...I also like to enjoy my plasma in a darkened room--this is when I find properly adjusted bias lighting helps the most.

Solid comments Felgar. I also have Oblivion for my 360 (720p via component) and at certain times and points in the game I see this phenomenon. ... I can’t see how this could be an interlacing problem. Unless I’m missing your point. I’ve sent progressive signals via HDMI and component and the results were the same. Contrast seems to be the problem.Would the 360’s VGA cables do as you have described? I believe it outputs 1366x768 @ 60Hz. I don’t believe this has anything to do with a panny plasma in particular.
My thinking on the interlacing issue would be this... On a 1080i feed and a fast-panning white edge, the frame would consist of alternating white-black rows on that edge. Now the TV will scale the 1080 lines down to 768 and even if it didn't, the lines would not fall on pixel boundaries unelss the pann was perfectly horizontal. I'm suggesting that the TV no longer has the resolution to display that black/white pattern and the result is a flash of color. The same effect that happens when ref uniforms are shown from too far away in sports events.

Now obviously this can't account for your 360 experience given that it's a 720p source. And not a camera/source material issue, as it would be rendered material. The reason I suggested VGA is that it has the H and V sync signals and I was wondering if the component feed could be getting slightly out of sync. Also even scaling from 720 to 768, the chance for coloration as a result of image scaling and source rows not mapping to even pixel boundaries is there IMO (same issue as the refferees again). But it would be less pronounced than the interlacing I was talking about earlier. But definately, changing to 1366x768 res on the 360 will help remove the scalar from the equation so that at least we can speak to it.

If you can come up with a specific example in Oblivion that's accessible by an early-level character then I can check it out on mine. Though I'm not sure I even want to see them. :D I run the PC version at 1368x768, 60 Hz.

Basically I'm suggesting that everyone who sees this get out of their mind that the cause is phosphour decay. You said yourself that on your 34" CRT you have no issues, and we know that CRT phosphour decays are possibly hundreds of times longer than on a plasma. If CRT phosphours can decay that evenly, it seems impossible to me that phosphours used in Plasma's could be so dramactially worse.

Is everyone seeing issues running a consumer version? I run a PHD508UK so maybe that has something to do with it...

Hmm... Also, Id like more people to drop their contrast to like 10%... Maybe it's your eyes that have decay issues and not the TV. We know that all eyes have image retention, maybe changing from such a bright white to completely black makes that image fade on your retinas more noticeable, and maybe your retinas decay red faster than green or blue... ??? If so, a much lower contrast ratio should be critical. Honestly the Panny TV's should be run no more than about 20% of total capacity anyways, in a dimly-lit room.

Please help me make a decision. I have seen trails on the panny on video content (mostly sports), but it's usually not a big deal. I am planning on buying the px4260u also, and I am a gamer. How often do you notice the trails? Is it all the time or just sometimes, and does it distract you from the game?

I only notice it when something dark is right up against something light and i'm moving around really quickly. It's fairly easy to miss, especially since i'm usually concentrating on what i'm doing as opposed to objects in the background. It doesn't distract me, and i find it preferable to the ghosting and such of LCDs. With or without the occasional yellow smears, plasma will be my favorite display type for a while.

I'm talking about this post:
So am I. Isn't that a live video of an actual plasma screen showing the game?

So am I. Isn't that a live video of an actual plasma screen showing the game?

Here's the exact post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7646741&&#post7646741)

As far as I can tell, he's watching some video, freezing it, and seeing these trailing yellow blurs while paused. Maybe I'm a confused noo-B but if you can see them when paused then it's in the source material. :confused:

Here's the exact post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7646741&&#post7646741)

As far as I can tell, he's watching some video, freezing it, and seeing these trailing yellow blurs while paused. Maybe I'm a confused noo-B but if you can see them when paused then it's in the source material. :confused:

But we're not pausing the game, we're pausing a video of the game on a plasma. Therefore it has nothing to do with the source game, it has to do with the plasma showing the game. Can you not understand?

I'm referring to the same post. He says "I came across a video of Rainbow Six being filmed off a plasma" which means that the video is actually of a plasma screen showing the game. The camera is catching the same artifact off the screen that their eyes are catching. If somone stood in front of the camera he would block the screen.

In this case the effect 'could' be the camera or it could be the screen, but being able to pause it has no bearing on whether the issue is source-material related or not in this case, because the original source material is the TV showign the game, not the game itself.

Here's a video i just took. It's not good quality because i forgot to turn a light on and i'm using a digital camera, but even then you can see how the edges of the tree and mountain kind of glow yellow when panning, especially to the left. http://www.supload.com/vid/100_0160/362696214/mov/ It's a big file, sorry, it's only about 8 seconds long, but the yellow shown is exactly what i see.

In this case the effect 'could' be the camera or it could be the screen, but being able to pause it has no bearing on whether the issue is source-material related or not in this case, because the original source material is the TV showign the game, not the game itself.

I see. Still, a good test would be to find a suspect scene on a DVD and slo-mo or pause it to verify its not in the source. Has this been done? I'm not disputing any claims. Obviously, some people can process visual information faster than others. Race car drivers can read the label on a record album while spinning 78 rpm.

Here's a video i just took. It's not good quality because i forgot to turn a light on and i'm using a digital camera, but even then you can see how the edges of the tree and mountain kind of glow yellow when panning, especially to the left. http://www.supload.com/vid/100_0160/362696214/mov/ It's a big file, sorry, it's only about 8 seconds long, but the yellow shown is exactly what i see.


I'll be honest, I can't see the yellow flashing/pulsing on that video at all.

I do notice a lot of screen tear, though! ;)

What is up with every 360 game having screen tear?

My understanding is that the video being referenced is actually of a plasma screen showing the game... it's not source game material.

Felgar, I think his point is that if the issue shows in a freeze frame, it's obviously not related to a rise/decay issue of phosphors...it's there in the source. I would tend to agree if it shows in a freeze frame of the actual source. But this is a video of the screen, so it's not really a freeze of the source.

Well, like many people this week, I've been all about E3 and just this morning I came across a video of Rainbow Six being filmed off a plasma. Now, I know many of you will continue to say that I'm crazy, seeing things, need my eyes fixed, etc., but I think this video shows some of the things that dalandis and I are complaining about.

If you have the time, download this video -- http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?type=mov&id=10717

About midway through the video, once the SWAT team gets inside the Casino, you see them taking cover and running past big white flourescent lights in the background. If you look closely as the camera pans past those big lights from left and right, you can see yellow blurring or trailing. It also happens on many other scenes but it's a bit more subtle. Also, if you freeze frame some of these scenes you can clearly make out a yellow outling around the player models and other objects onscreen. If I could, I would take stills and post them here, but i have no idea how to do something like that. If someone here sees what I'm talking about, and could take some screen caps of the effect as it's happening, that would be awesome.

P.S. - The more I watch this video, the more clearly I see this. How anyone with a discerning eye couldn't see what I'm talking about in this video, is absolutely beyond me.
Here's a screen shot that clearly shows the effect. Yoda1, I couldn't find any reference to how the video was created on that site. Was it something you saw being done at E3?

I noticed it in the file. You can see a yellow smear where the trees are. If you can upload a higher quality version I'm sure it would be easier for people to see. Also, watching the video in slow motion, you can see that there is an afterimage when the camera pans. The image is leaving a ghost then when the ghost image catches up it leaves the trail.

I think this may be caused by image retention. Sometimes when you quickly switch channels and it's on a dark scene you can see IR from the pervious channel. This may be a form of IR to to milisecond and nothing to do with phosphor decay. Do you guys remember when on a CRT there was a solid black background and a bright object moved across, you would see a trail. Now the CRT trail was alot longer in duration but it may have something to do with it.(only noticed it on black with very bright objects) Also I have seen green trails on my Sony RPTV on COD2 (sold TV, didn't have time to test other games) All these TVs can potentially suffer from burn in or Image retention. Now we know that direct view Crts have the least likely to burn, and trails are least likely to be noticed (some people do see trails on crt). CRT RPTV is more likely to burn but the trails are very minimal. Plasma is the most likely to get burn and has the worst trails.

LCD, LCOS, DLP have no trails whatsoever and they have no chance of getting burn it or image retention. Yes DLP has rainbows, but thats because of the color wheel.

I think I may be on to something.

Here's a screen shot that clearly shows the effect. Yoda1, I couldn't find any reference to how the video was created on that site. Was it something you saw being done at E3?

No, I wasn't there. I don't know what kind of camera they used, I just stumbled upon this video through GameTrailers cause I was interested in seeing footage of the game. It was about midway through that I started seeing yellow/pulsing flashes and I knew right then and there that this game was being demoed on a plasma.

Guys, I just wanted to pop in and clarify some of the confusion about capturing this artifact.

There are two distinct *different* ways this arises due to phosphor decay times.

First, what is captured in the video and the still shots is what I would characterize more as phosphor lag and trails. This is seen during rapid motion, and as a bright portion of an image is driven very bright, and then it passes by, there is a decay time (especially with green phosphor) that does not immediately return to black. Thus, you get a kind of greenish decay trail with motion most easily visible during high contrast scenes with fast motion. This is also seen on many CRTs, again depending on phosphor decay time.

Second, is that because the phosphors decay at different rates and there is refreshing going on due to the PDM/PWM nature of how plasmas work, there is also decays going on constantly within any image, and this includes still images. This is what is most bothersome because it's a fatiguing and distracting "rainbow"-like artifact that sort of jumps out at you as you move your eyes about. You can isolate this issue as distinct from lagging trails by pausing an image. If you hold your eyes still, or take a screenshot with the camera still, you will not see anything abnormal, and will just see the image as intended. However, if you move your eyes about rapidly, or take a screenshot while moving a camera rapidly, you may see these decay/refresh type artifacts that go into making the image "jump" out.

This is not the same as sequential color-rainbows on a 1-chip DLP, but what you see is not too dissimilar. On a color-wheel system, if you have a white object, it's actually R,G,B flashing very fast that you see as white. If you move your eyes rapidly, you can see this separate temporally into the RGB components that are flashing sequentially to create "white," and that is a DLP rainbow. Here, there is no sequential color going on, in essence white is created and is actually white (it's spatially converged to white essentially), but that white also decays and when it does so it doesn't decay from white to gray to black because the phosphors decay at different rates. So it's white, and then it starts to decay but the green decays slower so it changes between white and a decaying greenish yellowish color until the phosphor are excited again to create white. Again, if you dash your eyes around or take a screenshot while rapidly moving the camera, you may be able to sense this occurring.

In addition to this, there is also the fact that plasmas operate with PDM/PWM principles in the binary cells to excite the phosphors. This may also be a contributing factor for this temporal color "rainbow" artifact.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=540599&highlight=plasma+rainbows+cell

In that thread these kinds of things were discussed, and I do agree with differentiating these "rainbow" artifacts from DLP sequential-color rainbows which actually are R,G,B temporally displayed. These artifacts on Plasmas and on CRTs are different than that, yet they have a similar kind of effect of revealing colors that are not part of the image that are temporal in nature. High-contrast black and white images will bring these problems out the worst, again not unlike DLP rainbows, but the nature of the artifacting is still distinct. If there were another term that differentiates this artifact on plasmas an CRTs from colorwheel-rainbows I would use it, but I have not encountered an appropriate term for this and I think inventing a new one might increase confusion. I just want to make clear that this is perceptually similar to DLP rainbows, but is not the same thing, and I don't want the use of the term "rainbows" to be interpreted in a way such that I seem to be claiming that plasmas or CRTs operate with sequential color and that these artifacts are identical, because they are not.

Guys, I just wanted to pop in and clarify some of the confusion about capturing this artifact.

Excellent post. Thanks. Clarifies everything nicely.

The plasma rainbows are similar to dlp effect on bright scenes or dark scenes with white in them. Crt rainbows? Lets just say the plasma rainbows are more problematic than any crt, rear or direc-view ive had. This effect is not on crt imo.

You will find no rainbow with the dell.

Ain't no pot of gold, owning this set.

I've owned my plasma for 3 1/2 years now. My first one was an alis panel which was replaced by sony when it died for a non alis panel. Both of these panels exhibit that yellow(most of the time) motion trail on certain colours. at times it very noticable or very slight. Like someone else said it appears to be related to phosphor decay and there isn't much you can do about it. Just a limitation to the technology.

So it seems that people do see the problem but have learned to deal with it. I guess it's not a deal breaker. I'll ask anyway. How many people see trails and but still stick to plasma vs. how many people have returned there sets for something else.

I have had my panasonic th-42px60u plasma since march of this year. The HD picture quality in my opinion is great on this tv. But for some reason, starting in late april to present, the "rainbow-;ike" effect seems to be getting worse. Is this just my eyes deceiving me. I have over 100 hrs on the tv.

First, what is captured in the video and the still shots is what I would characterize more as phosphor lag and trails. This is seen during rapid motion, and as a bright portion of an image is driven very bright, and then it passes by, there is a decay time (especially with green phosphor) that does not immediately return to black.
I do not believe this is the cause of the 'green trail' effect. The phosphors just don't lag that much; PWM could not work if the phosphours decayed that slowly. At 60 Hz, each frame is about 17 ms. Compare that with the response time necessary to accomplish intensity variation with PWM... Honestly I'm not sure what the number would need to be but it would need to be a mere fraction of that 17 MS. Can anyone find documentation on that?

Here, there is no sequential color going on, in essence white is created and is actually white (it's spatially converged to white essentially), but that white also decays and when it does so it doesn't decay from white to gray to black because the phosphors decay at different rates. So it's white, and then it starts to decay but the green decays slower so it changes between white and a decaying greenish yellowish color until the phosphor are excited again to create white.
I also question this description. If the image is paused then the white is not decaying because a white pixel stays white. And if it's not paused, then the effect is actually what you described earlier.

And also, if the 'rainbow' you're seeing when paused is a result of being able to discern PWM on a single-pixel level, then it doesn't make sense to me that you see it worst on a white pixel. A white pixel is really just 'all on', as the plasma would be keeping the pixel on 100% of the time in order to make its reference 'white' color. Like in a drawing program, RGB values is 255, 255, 255 for white meaning 'full' values for each color. PWM would come into play for say a 50% gray which would be RGB 130, 130, 130. For a grey pixel I could possibly accept PWM as a cause, because then each sub-pixel would be 50% on, 50% off. In fact a dark grey at say 20% on time should make this effect most noticeable, if indeed the cause you attribute to the effect is what you think it is.

So IMO this leaves us with 2 questions I think still need to be answered. 1) What is the cause of motion-related color trails, and 2) is seeing a 'rainbow' effect while darting your eyes an actual display flaw or possibly just an effect of the physiology of human eyes.

Honestly I'm not trying to be difficult. I just feel that quite a few might be on the wrong track, and until we can come up with an explanation that makes sense, we need to continue to look for a cause of these issues. Until we know the true cause, finding a solution would be near-impossible.

I only see the greenish comet tail when the end credits are in white and scrolling very fast. It's mostly in the PBS HD programs


Why called it "Rainbow", when you only see one color?

Should just called it the comet tail effect.

sorry will now call it the "green trail effect"

I do not believe this is the cause of the 'green trail' effect. The phosphors just don't lag that much; PWM could not work if the phosphours decayed that slowly. At 60 Hz, each frame is about 17 ms. Compare that with the response time necessary to accomplish intensity variation with PWM... Honestly I'm not sure what the number would need to be but it would need to be a mere fraction of that 17 MS. Can anyone find documentation on that?


I also question this description. If the image is paused then the white is not decaying because a white pixel stays white. And if it's not paused, then the effect is actually what you described earlier.

And also, if the 'rainbow' you're seeing when paused is a result of being able to discern PWM on a single-pixel level, then it doesn't make sense to me that you see it worst on a white pixel. A white pixel is really just 'all on', as the plasma would be keeping the pixel on 100% of the time in order to make its reference 'white' color. Like in a drawing program, RGB values is 255, 255, 255 for white meaning 'full' values for each color. PWM would come into play for say a 50% gray which would be RGB 130, 130, 130. For a grey pixel I could possibly accept PWM as a cause, because then each sub-pixel would be 50% on, 50% off. In fact a dark grey at say 20% on time should make this effect most noticeable, if indeed the cause you attribute to the effect is what you think it is.

So IMO this leaves us with 2 questions I think still need to be answered. 1) What is the cause of motion-related color trails, and 2) is seeing a 'rainbow' effect while darting your eyes an actual display flaw or possibly just an effect of the physiology of human eyes.

Honestly I'm not trying to be difficult. I just feel that quite a few might be on the wrong track, and until we can come up with an explanation that makes sense, we need to continue to look for a cause of these issues. Until we know the true cause, finding a solution would be near-impossible.

8-13 pulses per frame with a combined time of about 4-6ms means the shortest individual pulse would be well below 1ms in duration.

Note: Plasmas do not use pure Pulse Width Modulation (PWM). This would mean they would need 256 bit processing. Since they are limited to 8-13bits per sub-pixel they must use temporally seperated PWM, where binary combinations are used to obtain the desired luminence.

1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128 in time domain, each number represents pulse duration.

For example in order to obtain a luminence of 128:

-, - , - , - , - , - , - , 128 ( cell is off until very end of frame period)

in order to obtain a luninence of 5

1, - , 4 , - , - , - , - (cell on near begining of frame period)

8-13 pulses... Where do you get that number xrox? And wouldn't the combined time be the full frame on a 100% white pixel? (17 ms?)

8-13 pulses... Where do you get that number xrox? And wouldn't the combined time be the full frame on a 100% white pixel? (17 ms?)

Plasmas (depending on which model) will have 8-13 bit processing meaning they will have 8-13 subfields per frame per subpixel where each subfield is a unit in the Binary Code PWM. Furthermore, each subfield will have a write pulse, multiple sustain pulses, and an erase pulse. This means most of the frame time is used up writing and erasing and only 4-6ms is left over for sustaining (ie - emitting light).

I do not believe this is the cause of the 'green trail' effect. The phosphors just don't lag that much; PWM could not work if the phosphours decayed that slowly. At 60 Hz, each frame is about 17 ms. Compare that with the response time necessary to accomplish intensity variation with PWM... Honestly I'm not sure what the number would need to be but it would need to be a mere fraction of that 17 MS. Can anyone find documentation on that?

This is something that I thought about, and my familiarity directly with plasmas is not as great as my familiarity with projection displays, but the plasma decay time still remains an issue, regardlesss of whether the excitation of the plasma is PDM/PWM or not. That is to say, the cells operate this way to excite the phosphor, and the cells have a much higher "speed" than the phosphor, but the phosphor still has its decay time regardless. The other thing that I have not adequately considered because I am not as familiar with it now, is how fast the cells are, because older plasmas did have problems with image retention.


I also question this description. If the image is paused then the white is not decaying because a white pixel stays white. And if it's not paused, then the effect is actually what you described earlier.

Yes, but if you pause the image, you can still see the rainbow-like artifacts, very similarly to as if you pause the image on a DLP or a CRT that's refreshing more slowly etc.


So IMO this leaves us with 2 questions I think still need to be answered. 1) What is the cause of motion-related color trails, and 2) is seeing a 'rainbow' effect while darting your eyes an actual display flaw or possibly just an effect of the physiology of human eyes.

Well, again the trails are the simplest to explain because it is just decay time, though it may be aggravated by the decay times of the cells though I do not know if that is a problem anymore. For 2) it isn't a physiological artifact because it is capturable on camera and is not visible on some other displays or othe high-contrast images and things like that. Though, it is in some sense physiological because some people see this more than others.

I've had my Fujitsu plasma for about 7 months now. I used to see the yellowish green flashes a lot, but now I hardly notice them. When you first see it, your eyes will be darting across the screen constantly, and this makes it worse. In time, your eyes will stop darting so much, and the flashes will mostly stop. I think being content with your setting also helps, as you will start watching the content and stop watching your display.

Plasmas (depending on which model) will have 8-13 bit processing meaning they will have 8-13 subfields per frame per subpixel where each subfield is a unit in the Binary Code PWM. Furthermore, each subfield will have a write pulse, multiple sustain pulses, and an erase pulse. This means most of the frame time is used up writing and erasing and only 4-6ms is left over for sustaining (ie - emitting light).
I see what you're saying about the 13 subfields, and after a lot of thought and deliberation I agree that it makes sense. But, how can you be sure that each picture field is not sub-divided into many groups? Like in your example with value of 128 in an 8-bit system, that would correspond to about half time on. But the cell itself could pulse many times per frame rather than just once per frame. The signal processing would not change in doing that, because it would be same sub-pixel value, just repeated in much smaller time slices. It would all depend on how quickly the sub-pixel can respond.

Incidently the more I think about it, the more I'm lead to believe that any rainbow effect is the direct result of PWM and not phosphour decay. If the on-off periods are not in sync between sub-pixels, the result when darting eyes and picking up just a fraction of the image would be the rainbow because the image could be caught with 1 sub-pixel on and the other off.

Incidently this artifact would appear on a 3-chip DLP for exactly the same reason. Didn't someone mention earlier that he could see it on a 3-chip DLP? To me this would verify that the effect is solely a result of PWM and not phosphour decay at all, as DLP doesn't experience decay and has on-off cylce times of microseconds.

Incidently this artifact would appear on a 3-chip DLP for exactly the same reason. Didn't someone mention earlier that he could see it on a 3-chip DLP? To me this would verify that the effect is solely a result of PWM and not phosphour decay at all, as DLP doesn't experience decay and has on-off cylce times of microseconds.

This has been brought up in the >3.5K forum and yes even 3-chippers would theoretically be susceptible to rainbow artifacts since they can produce only these colors: R,G,B,C,M,Y,White,black at any one instant and all other colors are produced by mixing these temporally. I have never seen rainbows an a 3-chip DLP.

The other thing to mention is that remember that CRTs do not use any type of PWM/PDM methods and actually are producing the colors that you see, yet rainbow-like artifacts are still visible to many viewers depending on the phosphors in use and the refresh rates etc.

Here is the best explaination of what I see. Anyone see the same?
http://www.emsgi.com/images/hddvd/SinCityDemo.jpg
Any questions?

I see what you're saying about the 13 subfields, and after a lot of thought and deliberation I agree that it makes sense. But, how can you be sure that each picture field is not sub-divided into many groups? Like in your example with value of 128 in an 8-bit system, that would correspond to about half time on. But the cell itself could pulse many times per frame rather than just once per frame. The signal processing would not change in doing that, because it would be same sub-pixel value, just repeated in much smaller time slices. It would all depend on how quickly the sub-pixel can respond.

Incidently the more I think about it, the more I'm lead to believe that any rainbow effect is the direct result of PWM and not phosphour decay. If the on-off periods are not in sync between sub-pixels, the result when darting eyes and picking up just a fraction of the image would be the rainbow because the image could be caught with 1 sub-pixel on and the other off.

Incidently this artifact would appear on a 3-chip DLP for exactly the same reason. Didn't someone mention earlier that he could see it on a 3-chip DLP? To me this would verify that the effect is solely a result of PWM and not phosphour decay at all, as DLP doesn't experience decay and has on-off cylce times of microseconds.


In the 8bit system the 128 gray level is acheived as I have shown above, with one sustain pulse at the end of the frame period. However it is more complicated than that.

The sustain pulse is not a single long pulse as you say. It is made up of bipolar pulses of equal length that match the AC frequency driving the display. Since Plasmas are AC addressed the 128 gray level sustain pulse will have 64 positive pulses and 64 negative pulses that alternate and the total sume is preceeded with one priming pulse and ended with one erase pulse. This however does not require the phosphor to turn on and off 128 times. It is just a consequence of the driving frequency.

In short, 8 subfields require phosphors fast enough to turn on and off 8 times per frame with pretty short rise and fall times.

Note: As I said in my previous post, out of 16.6 ms per frame only 4-6 ms is actually used to emit light due to addressing (write and erase)

Hmm I have been reading through and I don't doubt all the people that see the rainbow, I don't see it on my nec, my buddy tom doesn't see it on his elite.
Fellas maybe you should watch the program instead of the set, I mean nothing man made is perfect.

Here is the best explaination of what I see. Anyone see the same?
http://www.emsgi.com/images/hddvd/SinCityDemo.jpg
Any questions?

Like ChrisWiggles has said, the problem is temporal. The severity and intensity of the onscreen effect simpy cannot be replicated with still photos. But as you said, it's a start. I'm glad to see that a thread that I started many months ago, is finally starting to see some progress. I'm kinda glad I'm not the only one.

In the 8bit system the 128 gray level is acheived as I have shown above, with one sustain pulse at the end of the frame period. However it is more complicated than that.

The sustain pulse is not a single long pulse as you say. It is made up of bipolar pulses of equal length that match the AC frequency driving the display. Since Plasmas are AC addressed the 128 gray level sustain pulse will have 64 positive pulses and 64 negative pulses that alternate and the total sume is preceeded with one priming pulse and ended with one erase pulse. This however does not require the phosphor to turn on and off 128 times. It is just a consequence of the driving frequency.
I understand what you're saying, but do you have some supporting documentation to back up your thinking on how exactly it works? I'd love to review it, if nothing else just to further my own understanding.

I don't know whether you wear glasses or contacts. If you do, then colored edging, on black and white or colored TV pictures, is a normal phenomenon. It is called chromatic abberation. It is most pronounced with high impact plastic lenses. If you do wear glasses, then as you look at picture fairly close, turn your head to the left or to the right and see whether the "rainbow" disappears.

Hmm I have been reading through and I don't doubt all the people that see the rainbow, I don't see it on my nec, my buddy tom doesn't see it on his elite.
Fellas maybe you should watch the program instead of the set, I mean nothing man made is perfect.Don't get me wrong, I love plasma tvs. I've learnt to deal with this and for me it's not a problem. Some source material that I see "yellow-green trails" I either don't watch it or watch it on another type of display. That NEC is on my radar.I don't know whether you wear glasses or contacts. If you do, then colored edging, on black and white or colored TV pictures, is a normal phenomenon. It is called chromatic abberation. It is most pronounced with high impact plastic lenses. If you do wear glasses, then as you look at picture fairly close, turn your head to the left or to the right and see whether the "rainbow" disappears.Ruffread, I don't wear contacts or glasses. But that's interesting stuff.Like ChrisWiggles has said, the problem is temporal. The severity and intensity of the onscreen effect simpy cannot be replicated with still photos. But as you said, it's a start. I'm glad to see that a thread that I started many months ago, is finally starting to see some progress. I'm kinda glad I'm not the only one.Yoda1, Is what you see in anyway similar?

ScottS, what plasma do you have?
The new Vizio 42"

I don't know whether you wear glasses or contacts. If you do, then colored edging, on black and white or colored TV pictures, is a normal phenomenon. It is called chromatic abberation. It is most pronounced with high impact plastic lenses. If you do wear glasses, then as you look at picture fairly close, turn your head to the left or to the right and see whether the "rainbow" disappears.

That is true, but chromatic aberrations appear as blue and red fringing, and are spatial in nature. They are not temporal, and they are not greenish-yellow.

I wear glasses and am intimately familiar with the kinds of lens-artifacts both in terms of chromatic aberrations and geometry distortions, that they can present. That is a distinct issue from the one being discussed here.

ChrisWiggles, do you feel that picture supports your theory?

That picture illustrates motion trailing effects, not specifically the rainbow-like effects, but it is related.

8-13 pulses per frame with a combined time of about 4-6ms means the shortest individual pulse would be well below 1ms in duration.

Note: Plasmas do not use pure Pulse Width Modulation (PWM). This would mean they would need 256 bit processing. Since they are limited to 8-13bits per sub-pixel they must use temporally seperated PWM, where binary combinations are used to obtain the desired luminence.

1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128 in time domain, each number represents pulse duration.

For example in order to obtain a luminence of 128:

-, - , - , - , - , - , - , 128 ( cell is off until very end of frame period)

in order to obtain a luninence of 5

1, - , 4 , - , - , - , - (cell on near begining of frame period)According to the Initialization Pulse Adjust diagram in my 7UY service manual, the individual sustain pulses appear to be on the order of tens of microseconds in duration. The sustain interval is variable in duration, but each individual pulse within a given interval appears to be very brief. This jibes with AC plasma theory of ops articles that indicate that the time it takes for the UV output of ionized gases used in PDP's to decay after being pulsed is also on the order of tens of microseconds.

Thanks for chiming in 1920. I felt it would be something on that order. The pixel element could turn on and off like 1000 times between picture fields. In my mind that proves that the green trails are not related to phosphour decay.

What are your thoughts on the cause?

I have no idea...just a bunch of random thoughts. If it's a smear and not a strobe (more "analog" in nature), perhaps the phosphors integrate the UV pulses and the visible light decays slower than the UV pulses. Throw off the sync enough and it becomes perceptible to some viewers. If it's more of a strobing or spurious effect (as in the screenshot I posted) perhaps it's again some sort of sync-related problem, but I suppose one that could occur anywhere in the signal processing chain. I can't even imagine the timing margins required to get the data into the display serially, load up the frame buffer and then strobe the whole darn thing synchronously. The panels are physically large enough to where I would imagine clock propagation delay is a real problem that has to be managed.

Regardless of the root cause, it sounds like it can be much more than just a minor annoyance to some viewers. I mean, I've felt real pain when my eyes have been temporarily shocked by a bright pulse of light. While researching something else I stumbled across a study that shows our visual cortex has a characteristic "refresh rate," for lack of a better term. It has something to do with how our retinas pre-process (filter) data before it is sent to the brain, which then integrates what we see into our perceived reality. Perhaps some people have "higher-fidelity" retinas or visual cortexes that are overly sensitive to stroboscopic motion.

I understand what you're saying, but do you have some supporting documentation to back up your thinking on how exactly it works? I'd love to review it, if nothing else just to further my own understanding.I only have hard copy SID journals as a references but by just doing a quick search on google you can find many articles (some more accurate than others) on the topic.

While not totally accurate the following describes the AC addressing:
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/2006/01/eds_view_plasma.php

According to the Initialization Pulse Adjust diagram in my 7UY service manual, the individual sustain pulses appear to be on the order of tens of microseconds in duration. The sustain interval is variable in duration, but each individual pulse within a given interval appears to be very brief. This jibes with AC plasma theory of ops articles that indicate that the time it takes for the UV output of ionized gases used in PDP's to decay after being pulsed is also on the order of tens of microseconds.From my earlier posts you can easily back calculate the individual sustain pulse length assuming 4-6ms emmision time.

6000us / 256 ~ 23us per sustain pulse for 8bit
6000us/ 1024 ~ 6us per sustain pulse for 10bit

But, like I said before, this has nothing to do with decay of the phosphor. The rise and fall time for each sustain "INTERVAL" is what matters. Each interval contains many sustain pulses.

In my opinion there are three possibilites that may cause color fringing or trailing or flashing in Plasma displays:

1 - Dynamic false contouring [a motion artifact that plasma suffers from]
2 - Non linear PWM
3 - Color fringing caused by sub-pixel control

...In my opinion there are three possibilites that may cause color fringing or trailing or flashing in Plasma displays:

1 - Dynamic false contouring [a motion artifact that plasma suffers from]
2 - Non linear PWM
3 - Color fringing caused by sub-pixel controlThis (http://www.plasmatvscience.org/theinnerworkings2.html) article says "Initially, PDPs had problems with disturbances caused by interference between the PCM and fast moving pictures. However, this problem has been eliminated by fine-tuning the PCM scheme."

The article doesn't elaborate, but it would be interesting to see what this "fine tuning the PCM scheme" is all about. Non-linearities with charging the gas cells? Different phosphor decay rates?

This (http://www.plasmatvscience.org/theinnerworkings2.html) article says "Initially, PDPs had problems with disturbances caused by interference between the PCM and fast moving pictures. However, this problem has been eliminated by fine-tuning the PCM scheme."

The article doesn't elaborate, but it would be interesting to see what this "fine tuning the PCM scheme" is all about. Non-linearities with charging the gas cells? Different phosphor decay rates?"interference between PCM and fast moving pictures" refers to Dynamic False Contouring. Do a google search and you will find some older papers on this topic.

"Fine Tuning" refers to adjusting the PCM code to mimick human eye integration of light over adjacent pixels during motion. This required some serious signal processing as the incoming frames must be analyzed for motion and compensated for.

I actually found a pretty good video of a easy to see example of this effect:

http://trailers.gametrailers.com/gt_vault/t_nba2k7_gp_e36_h264.wmv
(warning it's a 100 MB)

EVERYONE should be able to see the effect.

I actually found a pretty good video of a easy to see example of this effect:

http://trailers.gametrailers.com/gt_vault/t_nba2k7_gp_e36_h264.wmv
(warning it's a 100 MB)

EVERYONE should be able to see the effect.

Where????? Can you take a screenshot of a scene and circle it???
All I see are the reflections of the overhead billboards as the camera angle changes, nothing else.

I actually found a pretty good video of a easy to see example of this effect:

http://trailers.gametrailers.com/gt_vault/t_nba2k7_gp_e36_h264.wmv
(warning it's a 100 MB)

EVERYONE should be able to see the effect.


I guess I'm not part of EVERYONE. All I see is a bunch of cheesy light & reflection effects on the floor of the court. You are going to have to be much more specific.

I gurantee you that somebody will see it--somebody sees everything.

I once had a Direct-view CRT that needed de-magnetizing and had a similiar effect.

Can the human eye be magnetized?

I don't know whether you wear glasses or contacts. If you do, then colored edging, on black and white or colored TV pictures, is a normal phenomenon. It is called chromatic abberation. It is most pronounced with high impact plastic lenses. If you do wear glasses, then as you look at picture fairly close, turn your head to the left or to the right and see whether the "rainbow" disappears.
Contacts can cause that too? I see the yellow flashes\afterimages on rare occasions. But when watching sin city last night I was seeing red, blue, and green flashing at me more often than not. I was pretty painful and gave me a headache. Could my contacts have been the culprit? I know that the yellow flashes are not from my contacts since other people who don't wear contacts or glasses see them too. But maybe the rainbow flashes are just me then.

Could my contacts have been the culprit?

No. Lenses can cause chromatic aberrations, but those are red/blue fringing and are not temporal in nature. If you wear thick glasses, especially plastic ones with high refraction index, you may be familiar with chromatic fringing. If you are not familiar with this, don't go looking for it! ;)

Can the human eye be magnetized?

This is caused by the electron beam in a CRT which is deflected by the presence of a magnetic field. Unless you have electron beams in your eyes...

My eyes weren't magnitized--just my warm engaging personality was!

ChrisWiggles: Which technology seems to produce this effect the least?

ChrisWiggles: Which technology seems to produce this effect the least?

Which effect do you mean? There are several possible antecedents: chromatic problems like misconvergence, rainbow-type artifacts(of which there are several), color distortion due to magnetic fields?

Let me put it this way: Which technology in your opinion would be the least objectionable if an individual EQUALLY perceived all the possible effects that have been mentioned in this thread?

I believe I addressed this some pages back, but for me personally, the least fatiguing displays are LCOS, LCD, and 3-chip DLP displays. I will note however that 3-chip DLPs still operate with PDM/PWM and that rainbow-like artifacts can theoretically still be visible, and there have been one or two people who have reported seeing them on 3-chip DLPs. I personally have not, and I consider myself fairly strongly susceptible to seeing such things. I should also note that I have seen some LCD displays have some odd scan-like artifacts appear temporally, but these have mainly been with much older commercial LCD projectors. I am not sure what that artifact was, however, and I have never seen it on any flat-panel LCD or modern LCD-projectors tasked for home use.

Analog SD on a 4:3 tube... :p

Analog SD on a 4:3 tube... :p

Although you seemed to post that out of jest, you may note that I did not include CRT displays in my list. Indeed many people can see flicker or decay artifacts on CRTs, depending on the CRT. I can, and yes I am a CRT user. I run mine at 720p72 (much faster than most CRTs), but still do see some temporal decay artifacts, though very few people would notice them.

At the extreme of fatigue for me would be single-chip DLPs, especially older models with slower colorwheel speeds. But there are many happy users of those as well who don't see the rainbows at all, not unlike the case here.

Yes, it was in jest - but only partly, as I do think most of the artifacts discussed in this thread are much more evident in the modern digital signals and displays than in the good old analog NTSC signal feeding a tube. Of course, the sharpness, detail, etc of HD are also missing on the SD analog... :)

I also ran my computer CRTs at high refresh rates to reduce flicker - especially at work under the fluorescent lights. CRT flicker would drive me nuts (or at least *more* nuts).

I just bought a Panasonic TH-42PX60U a few days ago, and I can see the yellow streaks as well :-( I also have a Canon Digital Rebel and was able to capture the yellow in a black and white movie using the rapid shot feature. I will post them if anyone wants to see them. Now I have a tough dilemma of whether to return this TV to Best Buy or not. I don't have the box anymore, and I'm worried about the return fees. Anyone know what they are? I hate my eyes right now.

please post pics.

This is a black and white movie.

Same black and white movie with more apparent yellowing.

And this last one shows how most people actually see it. For those of us that have the eyes that can detect it.

Are you using a very fast shutter speed for those?

All pictures were taken at 1/80 sec.

Can you take a photograph also (if you have the chance) with perhaps a slower shutter speed, but move the camera rapidly? I'm curious if it's capturable that way as well. I'm somewhat surprised you were cable to capture this with a still camera, actually, but I suppose that's a fast enough shutter speed. (I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to cameras :) )

Using a slow shutter speed and moving the camera will just make the photo very blurry.

Ok... here are my findings with adjusting shutter speeds. As billybob guessed, it just made the picture blurry with a slow shutter speed. But there were some interesting things I noticed while changing the shutter speed.

1/8 - not noticeable
1/15 - rarely noticeable
1/30 - sometimes noticeable
1/60 - noticeable
1/125 - very noticeable (blue streaks start appearing)
1/250 - extremely noticeable, pictures are either blue, yellow, or both; rarely just black & white

This pretty much convinces me that it really depends on the person. I'm one of the few people that go crazy using a 60Hz CRT and can see difference when other people are like, wtf are you talking about? So I guess I'm one of the few people here cursed with seeing the phosphor decay.

Update: The attached are some of the pics I got at 1/250 sec.

Using a slow shutter speed and moving the camera will just make the photo very blurry.

Yes, well maybe not a slow shutter speed as much as taking a photo while moving the camera. Anyway, it's probably not really necessary, it was mainly for my curiousity.

I've never seen anything even remotely like what your pictures depict on that movie....not even remotely!

Wanted to chime in. I have the Panasonic th-50phd8uk and it replaced the th-42pwd4uy which I used for about 3 and half years. The 42" is now at my bro's. Watching the hockey game tonight on the 42" I could not discern any color streaking at all, but I can certainly see it on my 50" fairly easily. I'm wondering if Panasonic made some processing changes that have created the effect. For those that can spot it easily, have you seen them on some of the 3rd, 4th and 5th gen panels as well?

Ok... here are my findings with adjusting shutter speeds. As billybob guessed, it just made the picture blurry with a slow shutter speed.

"Guessed"??? :D

And this last one shows how most people actually see it. For those of us that have the eyes that can detect it.

That's the best screencap I seen for this type of rainbow ghosting.

I'm taking my Plasma set back on Monday & will test out some 3 Chip DLP & Rear Projection TV sets to see if they have anything similar or anything worse.

I'll report back when I do

BTW what's a good excuse to return the Plasma without getting that damn 15% restocking fee?

"Guessed"??? :DYeah, guessed was the wrong word. :p It's a fact.

I just bought a Panasonic TH-42PX60U a few days ago, and I can see the yellow streaks as well :-( I also have a Canon Digital Rebel and was able to capture the yellow in a black and white movie using the rapid shot feature. I will post them if anyone wants to see them. Now I have a tough dilemma of whether to return this TV to Best Buy or not. I don't have the box anymore, and I'm worried about the return fees. Anyone know what they are? I hate my eyes right now.
What your describing as yellowing I've reported many times of my experience when I owned a 50" 500U Panny for over a week as having dirty whites that would be a loser in a Tide detergent commercial, I found the poor whites in many of the scenes as simply terrible after having been used to viewing an LCD FP and an SXRD with stand out whites to contrast. I was viewing my same HD Content on channels and the poor whites or yellowing your pic's show simply were unacceptable. I remember stating one time it was as if someone had urinated on the whites, yet at other times it would display whites good but it seemed anytime white was a background color it was a dirty or had this yellowing effect to match some of your pic's.

I didn't bother figuring it out and instead just sold the TV and when I view Sin City on my Sharp it looks amazing and it certainly doesn't replicate any of the artifacts posted earlier here, as touted as plasma is with it's blacks Sin City on my 45" Sharp is friggin amazing as it's whites and bright color contrast with the blacks perfectly and my 45" does have much better blacks than my 32" previous model. Just found it interesting to observe those B/W photo's replicate what I've always called dirty whites on the plasma I briefly owned. :)

Here's a slightly larger and cropped image of Picture 027. For those of you wondering what we are taking about, look at the noise and hands of the second man to the left.

Here's a slightly larger and cropped image of Picture 027. For those of you wondering what we are taking about, look at the noise and hands of the second man to the left.
Scratch, Thanks for the hard work. That is exactly what I see.

I've had my Pio ELite PRO-930HD for about 2 months now. My eyes see this as well. I don't seem to pick up the detail of the yellow lines but I definitely see a frequent pulse/flash/flicker. I thought it was the contrast adjusting or something to that effect but now I think this is what I am seeing. I had my power save mode set down to 2 for the initial break in. Now I have it cranked back up to normal and this seems to have reduced the frequency somewhat but it is still there and is a little distracting. My wife doesn't see it though.

At first I thought the "rainbow effect" was something I wouldn't see...then I realized that the most sure fire way of seeing them (and for me it's avoidable) is if you dart your eyes back and forth quickly while viewing a PDP. During natural viewing I seldom do this but if I try this I see them. I suppose the people that are sensitive to the effect, this is their natural way of watching TV...I generally tend to watch with a steady gaze. To a certain degree, my experience has been that it's source dependent. Also, I've noticed that the effect is more noticeable when viewing black and white material.

My eyes tend to twitch when I watch stuff so it's more noticeable to me. I really noticed it at first while watching a movie that had quick subtitles. You HAVE to move your eyes fast to read everything. And since I watch quite a few subtitled movies and spent so much money on the TV, I couldn't stand to keep such a large investment. I've decided to wait for better LCD TVs. Much to my surprise, Best Buy refunded me the *entire* amount. Of course I had everything except the box. That restocking fee would have sucked.

I thought I was going crazy until I saw this thread. Just picked up the new 50" Panasonic (60U). The Rainbows are KILLING me. It is most pronounced with scenes that have very dark and bright areas together. For instance, Black and White images exhibit the most rainbows for me. Hockey games with the bright ice and fast moving players a close second.

I'm one of those people who are REALLY affected by CRT flicker, so I shouldn't be surprised I guess.

I had seen rainbows on DLP units, but not as bad as this, which is really surprising. Maybe the lighting in the stores reduced it somewhat for the DLP units.

Instead of Yellow smearing, I thought I was seeing more a green tinge. Maybe I'm colour blind ;)

I can't bring the unit back, though. I can't live with the limitations of the other technologies. I'm hoping to get used to the rainbows over time.

ScratchFury, thanks for that rainbow effect picture! Maybe now I can explain to my wife why I need to return my set... :/

I bought the Vizio 50", and I'm EXTREMELY happy with the PQ of it... that is, until I started noticing the rainbows all over the place. I had never heard of them on plasmas before I bought it, and I stayed away from DLP because I was so sensitive to them.

Imagine my surprise and disappointment when it turnes out plasma has it too...

I notice it mostly when I watch DVDs for some reason (I have no HD source), when I watch regular TV it's hardly noticeable at all. Not sure why, maybe my eyes are trying to focus more due to the sharper image on DVDs.

Anyway, good to see I'm not the only one experiencing these things... looks like I'll have to go down in size and get a similarly priced LCD instead, unless I can get used to this... :(

Yoda,
I haven't seen rainbows or flashes since i quit using LSD approx. 35 years ago. Just a hint.

I had a terrible case of broncitis about 25 years ago, and the doc gave me a prescription for some cough syrup that caused some amazing hallucinations. :D

Rainbows when looking at bright lights. :cool:
Distortion, my dog looked up at me, and he appeared to have a 4' long muzzle with two tiny brown eyes way back behind it. Also, when I looked down at my feet, it appeared that I was about 20' tall. :confused:
I saw brightly colored bugs and spiders on the wall, a couple of feet across. :eek:
A feeling that my head was huge and my body tiny. :confused:

The best part was an amazing feeling of falling, controllable by how much light I let into my eyes. By closing them tightly while looking at any bright light. :)

I almost cried when the second bottle was gone and no refill! :eek:

With that stuff, it was fun to be sick!

I just bought a Plasma because I couldnt stand the rainbow effect on DLP TVs. Walking into the TV section of Best Buy is a nightmare. But when I got my plasma home I randomly catch the rainbow effect from the TV every now and then when I first started to watch it. I really dont see it any more so maybe it was just some kind of placebo effect or because the TV wasnt tuned correctly but yes there are those of us who get the rainbow off a plasma

Has anyone checked the new Pioneer or Sammy to see if the green trailing is still there or to a lesser extent. I own the Panny 4260u and the trails are really bugging me. Im hoping some sets have it less then others.

Has anyone checked the new Pioneer or Sammy to see if the green trailing is still there or to a lesser extent. I own the Panny 4260u and the trails are really bugging me. Im hoping some sets have it less then others.


I have had Panny 50" 8UK for several months now and I see yellow trailings after moving objects and also the rainbows pretty much all the time.

Rainbows on DLP projectors are absolutely killing me, so I guess I can be described as sensitive.

Advice to newbies who could be sensitive: don't buy a plasma sight unseen. Go to a store with a DVD full of dark/high contrast scenes, tell them to play it for you and check out the picture. I see the rainbows if I move my head (eyes) even slightly while watching high-contrast material.

Bottom line - if I knew what I know now, I would most emphatically NOT buy the Panny. Returning it now is more hassle than it's worth - Hi-Def sports is what I watch the most and they are typically not high-contrast material, so I don't see rainbows/flashes. I see the yellow trailings, but they don't bother me that much.

High-speed switching technology allows for efficiencies that otherwise wouldn't be possible, so it's bound to become more ubiquitous--I just saw a segment on the show Discoveries this Week about what is claimed to be the first real dimmer for flourescent lighting (I could've sworn I've seen dimmers that supported flourescent before) and guess what: it works by rapidly switching the current through the bulb to cut down the light output (and save energy) while still keeping the gas in the bulb ionized. I think they said the switching rate is something like 20KHz. I hope for the sake of the folks that are sensitive to these PDP and DLP light modulation artifacts that extensive and long-term ergonomic and psychovisual studies are conducted before it becomes really common...

wow, i thought i was the only one that saw this. DLP rainbows drive me nuts, but i occasionally see this yellowing effect even on my RP CRT. Fortunately, it's mainly with quick eye movements (as i'm looking away or at the TV for example), so it's not too bothersome. I've noticed it on some plasmas as well, but I don't think I've seen it on LCDs. Never seen it on a direct view CRT. I too am one that's very sensitive to low monitor refresh rates that nobody else even notices. very very strange, but i feel slightly less insane now :)

Moderator

User Artwood, since your PM function is disabled, I'll say it here: do not post to this thread again unless you have something USEFUL to add.

BAH!

I recently bought from Costco, thank god, a Maxent 5020 (with the panasonic PDP). I have been toiling with taking the set back because of the floating black level and noise embedded in the grey's caused by them. I figured I would test out the ultimate high contrast movie, Sin City.

Every Scene all I could see was yellow and blue rainbows. I thought I was crazy so I paused it, and had my mother and brother in law look at it. If they moved their eye from one corner to the next they could see exactly what I was talking about, which makes me think it's more common. I hated DLP's becuase of the rainbows, and now plasma has a blue/yellow flash?

Is there a consensus on what causes this? The Samsung 5053 would be my next choice, but if it's not the subpixel of the panasonic, then it might just be another return. =(

I can promise you that it's not the sub-pixel controller. The effect can be seen even on my HTPC feed which is 1:1 pixel-mapped and would therefore disable the controller.

Isn't the floating black level issue fixed on the newer panels? Or is that Maxent an older unit?

If this effect is caused by rapid eye movement has any one tested to see if viewing distance is one cause. When close you have more eye movement and when way back you can take the whole screen in without much movement.
Just a thought.

Roy

If this effect is caused by rapid eye movement has any one tested to see if viewing distance is one cause. When close you have more eye movement and when way back you can take the whole screen in without much movement.
Just a thought.

Roy

Interestingly, I notice more rainbows from 8' away than 1'.

I noticed yellow trail while watching Sin City on my Sharp LC-40C45U (45D40U equivalent) LCD TV. I also can see it when moving white mouse curser across black background.

Wow... you are about the one person in a million who sees this... (too bad for you, really).

Guess you'll have to stick to "live" performances, sporting events and theater instead of video recordings on TV... for shame, really....

;)

which are quite overrated I hear.

who needs "reality" when you have A/C, a recliner, a plasma TV and a remote?

"real life" is for the birds. if it doesn't come in through the wall via a co-ax cable I can't be bothered by it.

;)

Its official this is still a silly thread title.

So is this still a legit problem with the latest Plasmas? I see that this thread has an incredibly thin post count when compared to other threads and especially considering how long the thread has been active... I'm really trying to decide between the Panny 42 600u and the Pioneer 4270... But knowing I'm about as picky and sensitive as anyone can be when it comes to image quality I'm worried that this kind of thing will bug the hell out of me it it's a real problem. I haven't seen it at all in-store, but that doesn't count for much of anything.

Anyone have any info on whether the Pio suffers from this problem? Is it a thing of the past? Thanks in advance...

Yes it's still a problem if you are susceptible to the effect - I see rainbows on all plasma's including my 4 week old Pioneer 50".
It's something that you sort of learn to live with to a large extent - when I first started watching my 3yr old Hitachi (ALIS - they also produce rainbows) it drove me crazy but now I have learnt to ignore most of these effects...
I think it's something to do with persistance of vision - those of us with a very short POV have the problem, most people with normal POV don't see rainbows

Anyone can see the rainbow effect on a plasma screen if you sit right in front of the screen and wave your hand rapidly between the screen and your eyes with open fingers (i.e., the same way you would see 60Hz flicker from a CRT TV). You will see faint red and green fringes around your fingers. I don't know what causes the effect - obviously some sort of interaction between persistence of vision in your eyes and the way the plasma screen displays the picture. Maybe the red/green/blue phosphors light up and decay at a slightly different rate. I don't see anything in normal viewing, and I do see rainbow effect on DLPs.

Do any of you guys who see rainbows on plasma and DLP also get bothered by the new LED red braking lights on cars?

The darned LED lights "jump" in front of my eyes - maybe I really need to see an optometrist!!!

PS - I readily see DLP rainbows even on static DLP images (such as business Powerpoint presentations from a DLP projector), and see plasma rainbows on high-contrast material only (ie rolling credits, dark scenes with white areas, etc).

I see the rainbow effect on my DLP projector (Infocus 4805) as well as my brand new Panasonic 42PX60U plasma. Although, in both cases I usually only see it when it's high contrast material with little color in the picture. So, Sin City is a perfect example being that it's a high contrast black and white movie. The whole time I was watching that movie I was seeing colors flashing all over the place on my DLP projector. With the plasma I do see different color flashes some times (again, typically on black and white high contrast material) but usually it's just flashes of yellow. And if I blink a lot or move my head I'll notice them even more. It's not so bad that I can't live with it, however. Luckily when watching most content I never notice it. It's just certain content (like Sin City) where it really shows up.

BTW, in response to the post above, I do not have an issue with the LED brake lights. They cause no visual issues for me.

Do any of you guys who see rainbows on plasma and DLP also get bothered by the new LED red braking lights on cars?

The darned LED lights "jump" in front of my eyes - maybe I really need to see an optometrist!!!

PS - I readily see DLP rainbows even on static DLP images (such as business Powerpoint presentations from a DLP projector), and see plasma rainbows on high-contrast material only (ie rolling credits, dark scenes with white areas, etc).

Yes, LED brake lights do bother me. You're not crazy.

Do any of you guys who see rainbows on plasma and DLP also get bothered by the new LED red braking lights on cars?

The darned LED lights "jump" in front of my eyes - maybe I really need to see an optometrist!!!



YES!

I've remarked on this before. Those new brake lights have been driving me insane - they cause strobing trails as my eyes scan the traffic ahead of me! I can't imagine what it would be like if every car used those.

(And yes, I am very sensitive to rainbows on DLP).

I was reading through some papers that described Panasonic's "sub-pixel controller" and how it works. It is essentially the same as:

http://www.grc.com/ctwhat.htm

and will definitely cause color fringing on high contrast scenes but not the color trailing reported here.

As for phosphor decay the average decay time for PDP phosphors is <2ms to 10% luminence so they should not cause any color seperation effects that are different than those on CRTs

This leaves PWM (pulse width modulation) as the culprit. This is the best fit as it is the greatest source of color seperation and will cause color trailing in human perception.

As for phosphor decay the average decay time for PDP phosphors is <2ms to 10% luminence so they should not cause any color seperation effects that are different than those on CRTs

But the point is that CRTs reveal similar effects. It's not different.

Why oh why wasn't this thread nearer the top of the forum more often? I just settled on a plasma (Panasonic TH42-PX60U) and got it this morning. I really wish I had known about this issue before buying.

I hooked up some rabbit ears and pulled in our local PBS in 1080i at ~90% signal strength, made minor adjustments to the picture (contrast way down, color temp to "warm," all image enhancement stuff off). Beautiful picture of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir performing, but it's a historical documentary so the view soon switches to panning across a black and white photo and I see the most horrible RBE I've ever seen. Flashes of color at the smallest movement of my eyes; I wasn't darting my eyes back and forth "looking" for them, just regular viewing. This is much worse than any DLP rainbows I've ever experienced.

I am susceptible to DLP rainbows but have trouble seeing them on the 3-chip displays. I also see green ghosting on RP CRTs and usually need to set PC CRT displays to the highest available refresh rate to avoid the annoyance of flickering.

I tried several other sources and channels and experienced this effect on every one-- of course, high-contrast scenes really bring them out. Even after turning the set off I had some visual "aftershocks." These rainbows sort of "stab" your eyes and it's very disconcerting to relive that effect.

So far the TV is nearly unwatchable for me. I'm still trying to recover from the headache induced by about 20 minutes of viewing (guess I am a glutton for punishment) and that was almost two hours ago! Is there something seriously wrong with my TV? This is the first big TV I've ever had and it looks beautiful other than these horrible flashes. Very sad...

I think we're mixing up some different effects here.

Regarding LEDs: LEDs are a continuous monochromatic light source - they don't strobe or flicker. You could see them leave a strobing trail as your eyes move, but this is because your eyes move in microjumps and the LED brake lights are very bright.

Regarding seeing rainbow effect with 3-chip DLPs: whatever you're seeing, it's not rainbow effect. 3-chip DLP systems don't have rainbow effect.

If you see some sort of horrible rainbow effect on your new plasma TV which makes it nearly unwatchable and gives you a headache, I suggest that you return it. Maybe your eyes are somehow different from the thousands of other owners who don't see this, or perhaps the effect is more psychological than physiological, but it's real to you.

Regarding LEDs: LEDs are a continuous monochromatic light source - they don't strobe or flicker. You could see them leave a strobing trail as your eyes move, but this is because your eyes move in microjumps and the LED brake lights are very bright.

It is my understanding that to dim the LEDs they are strobed. You can see a broken trail if you move past such an LED even without moving your eyes.

If you see some sort of horrible rainbow effect on your new plasma TV which makes it nearly unwatchable and gives you a headache, I suggest that you return it.

I am going to play with settings more tonight and also see if my wife sees this effect (she has pointed out rainbows in DLP and green flashes in RP CRT to me when I haven't noticed). If we can't get it to improve it will be going right back. At that point it will be LCoS or LCD for us, I'm afraid...I really do love the plasma picture other than this.

Maybe your eyes are somehow different from the thousands of other owners who don't see this, or perhaps the effect is more psychological than physiological, but it's real to you.

Good grief, it's not something I was looking for, or even knew about until I viewed the set at home--I was flabbergasted and came here searching for information. Of course in a perceptive sense it is "real to me" (which carries the connotation that I'm imagining this) but there was a fellow just a while back in the thread who posted high-shutter-speed proof of exactly this effect. Just because some people can't perceive it doesn't mean it is nonexistent in a physical (well, as physical as photons can be) sense.

There are dozens of people who see this and who have posted about it on this thread and others. I just wish I'd read about it beforehand.

I think we're mixing up some different effects here.

Regarding LEDs: LEDs are a continuous monochromatic light source - they don't strobe or flicker. You could see them leave a strobing trail as your eyes move, but this is because your eyes move in microjumps and the LED brake lights are very bright.
.

The led brake lights on cars don't appear to me much brighter at all than the other cars.
Further, I can look at very bright light sources, sweep my eyes past them and experience nothing like I experience with the led lights. (I just tried this, walking right up to a bright light in our hallway - so bright it was hard to stair at directly, and I swept my eyes back and forth. Nothing like the led effect - a strobing, breaking up of the image - happened at all).

...Just because some people can't perceive it doesn't mean it is nonexistent in a physical (well, as physical as photons can be) sense...Agreed--our individual perceptions are our reality and that's all that matters. I fortunately am not able to perceive the plasma strobing phenomenon. Have you considered direct-view LCD (similar form-factor but perhaps more palatable image generation mechanism) or LCoS-based rear projection?

It is my understanding that to dim the LEDs they are strobed. You can see a broken trail if you move past such an LED even without moving your eyes.I also believe they do this to consume less power (and probably money) without diminishing their perceived brightness.

Sounds like the same people did the ergonomic studies...(or didn't).

Have you considered direct-view LCD (similar form-factor but perhaps more palatable image generation mechanism) or LCoS-based rear projection?

I got the Panny on a nice "Black Friday" deal so moving to either 42" LCD or 50" SXRD (currently researching Sony vs. JVC LCoS) more than doubles the price. Sucks to be me (or at least to have my eyes/brain/whatever wiring), absent the rainbow flashes this set looks awesome.

Here's a technical paper on how eye tracking interacts with pulse-width-modulated displays (including all DLP, plasma and LCD displays): http://www.poynton.com/papers/Motion_portrayal/index.html

Their main point is that CRTs escaped this effect because the screens were small, resulting in small angle change for moving objects in the picture, and the persistence of CRT screen phosphors is very short.

It seems to indicate the possibility of seeing rainbow effect on a plasma or LCD (equally, by the way) if:
a) your eye is tracking a moving object in the picture, and your screen is big enough and you are sitting close enough that the movement covers a significantly larger angle of view than watching a convential CRT (or equivalently that you sweep your eyes across a wide angle of view deliberately)
c) the color balance of the object is such that the pulse width ("on" duty state) is significantly different for the 3 colors of pixels

The effect will be worse for objects of high brightness on a dark background (high contrast ratio), and worse if you are sitting close to a big screen.

Possibly some people are seeing more rainbow effect because their screens are set brighter, and they're sitting closer to a bigger screen than others.

(and by psychological factor, I meant the "first dent in the new car" effect - once you see something that really bothers you, it will loom huge in your perception while other people see it but dismiss it as trivial)

...It seems to indicate the possibility of seeing rainbow effect on a plasma or LCD (equally, by the way)

Maybe you meant DLP? As sensitive (picky?) as I am I've never seen anything like rainbows on an LCD of any size.

(and by psychological factor, I meant the "first dent in the new car" effect - once you see something that really bothers you, it will loom huge in your perception while other people see it but dismiss it as trivial)

I understand what you're talking about. Now that I've seen this flaw, it will be difficult for me to live with, but I will still try some different lighting and a wider variety of source material. I lived through the "first dent in a new car" several years ago-- still have the car, though! (and the dent)

Maybe you meant DLP? As sensitive (picky?) as I am I've never seen anything like rainbows on an LCD of any size.

The pulse-width-modulation effect discussed in the above-referenced paper, which we are assuming is the cause of the rainbow effect on a plasma screen, affects LCDs equally. The paper discusses the effect mainly on LCDs, with a passing mention that it affects plasma screens too. It's far worse on single-chip DLPs because of the sequential color projection.

On an LCD or plasma, what you're seeing from one RGB pixel in a 1/60th second frame interval might be something like:

RRRRR
GGGGGGG
BB

Mostly 3 colors overlapping, but resulting in a fleeting impression of yellowness for part of the interval, and greenness for another part of the interval. That interval *should* be too short for your eye to perceive separately, unless your eye is sweeping rapidly across the display and pauses there on one of its microjumps for less than 1/60th sec.

On a single-chip DLP, the above pixel will be displayed in sequential colors as:

RRRRR GGGGGGGBB

but a little quicker so that it's still 1/60th sec. Now you have much more opportunity to see the separate red, green and blue phases. But what DLPs actually do now is to have multiple repetitions on a faster-spinning color wheel, so that what you actually get in 1/60 sec is something like:

RRRRR GGGGGGGBB RRRRR GGGGGGGBB RRRRR GGGGGGGBB

That reduces, but not eliminates the opportunity to see single colors (rainbow effect).

Do any of you guys who see rainbows on plasma and DLP also get bothered by the new LED red braking lights on cars?

The darned LED lights "jump" in front of my eyes - maybe I really need to see an optometrist!!!

PS - I readily see DLP rainbows even on static DLP images (such as business Powerpoint presentations from a DLP projector), and see plasma rainbows on high-contrast material only (ie rolling credits, dark scenes with white areas, etc).
I cannot stand those LED breaking lights. They are as bright as break lights when on and practically blind me when they break. I feel as if it is dangerous to drive with them on the road. The only things that piss me off more are those super super bright headlights that are like a normal cars brights being on, and those 15 mph speed bumps they keep putting into neighborhoods.

Regarding seeing rainbow effect with 3-chip DLPs: whatever you're seeing, it's not rainbow effect. 3-chip DLP systems don't have rainbow effect.

No, again, you have a limited understanding of the technologies involved. 3-chip DLP uses sequential color too. 3-chip DLPs can only create 8 colors at any given instant in time, all others are dithered representations. 1-chip DLPs can only create 3 colors, and because white is not included in that the visibility of this temporal artifacting can be quite significant. 3-chips can create white which really reduces or eliminates the visibility of temporally created color obviously on B&W material, but it is not eliminated.

The pulse-width-modulation effect discussed in the above-referenced paper, which we are assuming is the cause of the rainbow effect on a plasma screen, affects LCDs equally.

I don't see where you're lifting that from the article at all, LCDs do not operate by PWM/PDM. The article discusses blurring or latency in the display, not any kind of rainbow artifact visibility. LCDs are not binary, they are not creating color via temporal means like DMDs are at all. They are very much like CRTs in this regard.

3-chip DLP uses sequential color too.

Actually no, it doesn't. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dlp: "The "Rainbow Effect" is unique to single-chip DLP projectors."

I think you're getting confused about terminology. A 3-chip DLP still uses time-based modulation as a single-chip DLP - it just does it separately for each primary color at the same time, rather than projecting each color sequentially. I agree that it's not quite right to call it pulse-width modulation - but the principle is the same as the other mechanisms for modulating color by the length of time that each color is projected within a small time window.

I've actually been bothered by rainbow-like strobing on 3 chip DLPs. So have a few other people in the projector forum. The effect was exactly like the normal rainbow artifacts, excepting the strobed
high contrast trails didn't break up into more than one color.

On an LCD or plasma, what you're seeing from one RGB pixel in a 1/60th second frame interval might be something like:

RRRRR
GGGGGGG
BB

This is what I've been saying all along. Except LCD does not use PWM at all as it is an active-matrix display (pixels are "on" for the entire frame period). And plasma and dlp are not pure PWM as above but time code based (binary). So the example would be something like this

R RR R
G GG
BB

Actually no, it doesn't. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dlp: "The "Rainbow Effect" is unique to single-chip DLP projectors."

I think you're getting confused about terminology. A 3-chip DLP still uses time-based modulation as a single-chip DLP - it just does it separately for each primary color at the same time, rather than projecting each color sequentially. I agree that it's not quite right to call it pulse-width modulation - but the principle is the same as the other mechanisms for modulating color by the length of time that each color is projected within a small time window.

wikipedia is hardly an authoritative reference, and if you read below in the same article it also states:

"Three-chip DLP projectors can resolve finer gradations of shade and color than one-chip projectors, because each color has a longer time available to be modulated within each video frame; furthermore they have a reduced potential for flicker and rainbow effect"

Now, again, as I stated above 3-chip DLP also creates colors temporally. The positions of each DMD mirror element has only two positions, and there are three DMDs aligned together. That is 2^3 or 8 possible combinations. The combinations are: White, Black, G, R, B, C, M, Y. All other colors are created by dithering these 8 colors temporally.

Note how 3-chip is different than 1-chip in that white is not created by sequential R,G,B. Note also how each DMD element has the full time available to it, and is not restricted by colorwheel timing. These factors lead to greatly reduced or practically eliminated rainbow-type artifacts. The artifacts too, are different in nature from those in 1-chip DLPs, but they are not fundamentally gone or fundamentally something else. They are still the effects of temporal dithering to create colors other than the fundamental colors possible at any instant in the system.

I stand fully by what I said above because it is correct and true. Now, if you want to quibble about semantics about whether the artifacts possible in 3-chip is not the "rainbow effect" that's fine, but that's not an argument I'm interested in having.

There's some great info in this thread lately.

Now I know that I am not crazy. I have been reading the plasma forum since I don't know when and only after I bought my Panny I, too, discovered this thread. I see RBE on my Panny on high-contrast material. I don't see it at all on hi-def sports, which is why I still have the panel.

What it all seems to indicate is that even fewer folks see the RBE (or whatever we choose to call it) on plasmas than on the single chip DLPs. Oh boy!

Anyway:

1. Does it all mean that SED (if and when it comes out) has a good chance of displaying this artifact?

2. What are the technologies that are "easiest on the eyes" for us hypersensitives and still have good contrast ratio and response time (is it LCOS?)

We are definitely not crazy, nor are we alone. I found several online customer reviews referencing this effect and warning potential plasma buyers. My wife sees it now, too (I asked her to look for it). She says she doesn't notice it if not actively looking for it, though. I've looked at a couple of plasmas in stores but it seems much more difficult to notice, probably due to lighting and source material (or is it possible that some proportion of sets are more likely to exhibit this effect due to manufacturing variances?). There seems to be a big difference for me between 1080i and 720p material; the latter is relatively free of "plrainbows" but the former seems to be the worst offender. It's really bad on some SD material, but on some it's not.

I think I have gotten slightly used to it but there are some scenes and programs where they just start jumping out again. I really hate to take the TV back because the picture is better than anything else. Even the LCoS sets are sort of a risk because I don't know how much the SSE will bother me in the home environment (can see it easily in stores, but it's nowhere near as annoying as the RBE).

2. What are the technologies that are "easiest on the eyes" for us hypersensitives and still have good contrast ratio and response time (is it LCOS?)

I believe I stated my opinion on the matter earlier in the thread, but the least fatiguing displays for me are LCD, LCOS, and 3-chip DLP. Those are not necessarily my displays or preference (I use CRTs), but in terms of only viewer fatigue I prefer these.

I keep saying this, but it's uttrly bizarre how incredibly sensitive I am to so many time-based artifacts, such as DLP rainbows (even seeing some break-up on 3 chip models), CRT flicker, LED light break-up...yet I just never spot these rainbows on any plasmas.

Rich, do you have a plasma at home? In stores it's difficult for me to see them (like I said, lighting and source material). In fact, I couldn't see them at all on the Panasonic I walked past at Sam's Club. But the brand new one sitting in our living room has me running around trying to find the pot of gold!

Makes me wonder if there really is some manufacturing variance that causes this. Or maybe a break-in period?

R Harkness. If you want to see the rainbows and/or trails pop in an old black and white movie and you should be able to see them easily after a while. If you want to really see them, then just dart your eyes back and forth across the screen while watching a black and white movie. If you still can't see them then you never will. I rarely see rainbows. (I do see green trails often while gaming. Very easy to see and anyone Ive shown it to can easily see it without trying) However watching the special features on Cinderella Man where they show the original black and white footage of Baer vs. Brodick. It was like I was getting assaulted by green flashes. After 4 rounds i turned it off because i was getting a headache.

Anyway SED may also have this problem. I notice green trails on my old Sony CRT RPTV, but I have never seen them on my 34" sony XBR.

Also, how many of you that see the rainbows have darting eyes? What I mean is that some people when you look them in the eyes their eyes aren't steady but are constantly shifting or moving about. Ask a friend or someone close to stare at your eyes and ask them if your eyes are steady or they shift around. I have a 50" plasma and sit 7 feet away so I have to naturally move my eyes about the screen and thus sometimes notice rainbows. Do many of you who see rainbows sit really close to the TV? This definetely seems to be a problem with moving your eyes about the screen. If I really concentrate on a DLP and don't move my eyes about (if Im sitting far enough) then I won't see ANY rainbows. As soon as I stop concentrating my eyes may shift a bit every so often and then BAM rainbows.

I keep saying this, but it's uttrly bizarre how incredibly sensitive I am to so many time-based artifacts, such as DLP rainbows (even seeing some break-up on 3 chip models), CRT flicker, LED light break-up...yet I just never spot these rainbows on any plasmas.

That makes two of us Rich. I too immediately notice rainbowns on DLPs, but I've never once seen it on any of my plasmas (or any in-store plasmas either).

Three...

I hate rainbow effect on DLP but It's very rare on plasma display. I'm the kind of guy that can see a car wheel pattern at 60mph or fluorescent lightning vibration pulsation...I dont know my eyes or brain is too fast :D

I already saw this on plasma too, it was a LG plasma with some king of nad dvd player plugged in component I think. It was in a room with Fluorescent lightning( does not help because it flashes every 1/60 seconds ).

maybe it's related to the frequency of the pulsing light from the room and the tv set... but I dont think so because I already saw the same problem in a dark room.

Four solutions to help:

Change the dvd player
Change TV brand ( entry lg model is terrible on that problem)
change component cable to better quality.
Change room light.

that's it.
:o

I keep saying this, but it's uttrly bizarre how incredibly sensitive I am to so many time-based artifacts, such as DLP rainbows (even seeing some break-up on 3 chip models), CRT flicker, LED light break-up...yet I just never spot these rainbows on any plasmas.


well that might just mean your not sensitive to time-based artifacts :D

watch black & white movie or something with a LOT of contrasting blue & yellow & you'll see it

I saw the problem your talking about a long time ago on PBS HD on a pioneer when black and white program was running. Between black and white there were some kind of yellow banding I dont know what is was bizarre but still under the effect of a DLP tv.

I guess I'm lucky since I've never seen a rainbow effect on any HDTV, let alone my HD plasma.

I guess I'm lucky since I've never seen a rainbow effect on any HDTV, let alone my HD plasma.

Obviously the vast majority of people don't. :)

I'm not sure if im seeing the same thing as you guys, here is what I see..

green flashes: if i pause the screen on a dvd where its mostly dark, and a light object on one side, if i dart my eyes around from the bright object to other parts of the screen, I see a green flash where the light object is breifly as my eye moves from it.

so when watching a movie if something catches my attention and i dart my eye around to watch it, it happens to me.

is this what folks are seeing, I was thinking it was just something I had to live with on a big screen, where I see it in a still image.

I’ve been to Comet today and they were playing a black and white clip on all the latest PDPs. I was looking at the 42” Pioneer and when I moved my eyes to look at the Hitachi, I saw what can only be described as “green glow" (similar to rainbow effect on DLPs)”. I immediately began to notice the same effect on all PDPs on the shop floor but some were yellow mixed with green. Afterwards, I started to notice the same effect in fast sequence videos (in color).



So how many of you are affected by this? I can see rainbow effect on DLP and now this lol. Hopefully I won’t see anything on the next display devices (SED and OLED).

Hello,

I have witnessed this same effect. There's actually a thread about the topic already out there, but I can't find it (EDIT: posts have now been moved to this thread). It may have been moved into the Archive or something.

I see it on my NEC 42XR4 occasionally, which is interesting because it uses the same plasma panel as the Pioneer set you first noticed the effect on. When I first got the set, I noticed it quite a lot on high contrast scenes (like movie credits or other black and white stuff).

Now I notice it maybe once per day, and it doesn't bother me. I determined it had a few causes:

1) It's phosphor decay - apparently (according to experts here), green pixels seem to not decay as fast as their brethren, making a yellowish or greenish smear when your eyes track away.
2) If you set contrast and brightness correctly, it mostly goes away. Once I calibrated my set with DVE, 90% of the smearing went away.
3) People who see plasma "smear" seem to always be able to see DLP rainbows. Not everyone who sees DLP rainbows see the smear, but the inverse is true. It's either that we're pickier, or our eyes are better, or something.
4) You get used to it. This was the only real negative I saw on my NEC PQ wise, and within a week I'd gotten used to watching the display and almost never notice it. None of my friends have ever mentioned it.

I really think the main factor in noticing the smearing is paying very close attention to the display, being picky about its PQ. Once you get more casual about watching the set, and make proper display adjustments, it goes away.

Trent

Thanks for the great replay. It would defiantly bother me cos I play games time to time and knowing it’s there will dive me insane. It’s like finding a dead pixel on an LCD lol.

PS: It is true that the latest PDPs from Samsung no longer suffer from this and the green trail issues?

Thanks for the great replay. It would defiantly bother me cos I play games time to time and knowing it’s there will dive me insane. It’s like finding a dead pixel on an LCD lol.

PS: It is true that the latest PDPs from Samsung no longer suffer from this and the green trail issues?
You're welcome.

This effect is inherent to some degree with any phosphor-based display (CRT, Plasma, probably SED if it ever comes out), so I doubt Samsung has overcome it. However, I've noticed that some brands seem to be less susceptible to the problem.

I still chose plasma because of all the PQ advantages it has over LCDs, despite this little factor.

Trent

I'm not a big fan of LCD either but looks like I have no choice lol

PS: I haven't seen the same effect on any modern CRTs but, I do hate after glow lol

I'm not a big fan of LCD either but looks like I have no choice lol

PS: I haven't seen the same effect on any modern CRTs but, I do hate after glow lol
Well, don't jump ship yet - properly calibrate a plasma in a store and see if the problem is still there. Mainly, turn down the brightness and set the contrast to a reasonable level. That's what took care of my issue.

Trent

Add me to the list of those who see the "rainbow effect" on plasma's. I discovered this little treat after I made my purchase. I never noticed them in any show room. At the risk of sounding paranoid I think the video retailers show video that is designed to eliminate this effect!

I was hoping it was just something that would go away after the set was broken in but after reading many of the posts here I guess I'm stuck with it! I see more than just the usual yellow and green flashes I get the whole spectrum of color, an added bonus! Because of this I can only watch for a short time if the all the light are off. Adding a light behind the display helps. I still see the flashes but they aren't as pronounced. Unfortunately the wife likes the lights off for movies. I will look into getting a proper light in the 6500K to help...I'm sure it won't be cheap!

I've calibrated the display using an AVIA DVD and while I highly recommend this to anyone...it's a vast improvement to the "torch mode" settings...the "effect is still present! Some DVDs and TV shows are worse than others. I'll just have to live with it until a better technology comes along. That, and when I can convince the wife into dropping another wad of cash..."h*ll" should be frozen over by then;)

I'm just adding my voice to the minority that seem to have this problem.

I have noticed the "yellow" flash issue on my Pany TH50PX60U

It showed up tonight a number of times watching "Underworld Evolution" on my SA8300PVR - HDMI @ 1080i

It's such a temporal thing, that sometimes you are not sure what has happened.. you just all of a sudden get a visual "jolt".

Othertimes it's certainly noticable as "yellow"

Especially noticably yellow when the characters were in front of some strong lights in a fairly subdued enviroment, near the begining.

I've seen some "rainbow" effects as well during other programing, and I find watching my new plasma a bit of an eye strain for more than 2 hours.. I'm sitting 10 feet away.. before this I had a 27" CRT

Oh, and that E3 Rainbow 6 Video posted earlier... I see the yellow flashing.

I am not sure if I mentioned this yet (I seem to remember writing about it somewhere) but, yes, I noticed the rainbow effect very quickly after owning my first plasma. I had hypothesized that this effect is due to the fact that the screen is being "pulsed" rather than scanned like a CRT. Basically every RGB subpixel is flashing at 60hz (or 72hz on some plasma's) but since all the pixels blink at the same time your eye can pick out the individual RGB light being emitted. To me it is not a big issue as I really only notice the effect on plasma's when I move my eyes around rapidly (much the same with a CRT, the flicker is really only noticeable when I do the same).

I'd suggest that these problems are not only hardware related, but are likely the result of differences in individual sensitivity in perception. The fact that some posters "see" colors in black & white images proves that it's a major issue for some.

I don't understand the mechanics of it, but visual illusions involving color, shape, and movement are quite well known. See this page for examples:

http://www.ritsumei.ac.jp/~akitaoka/index-e.html

Some display technologies may be worse in this regard, but ultimately it's individual perception that's the main problem.

i have a pioneer 5070 and have yet to see any flashes of yellow...and i almost always watch it in a dark room.

Is that one of the 72Hz Pioneers?

Is that one of the 72Hz Pioneers?
I don't think that makes a difference. I can see it on a pio 5060 which also does 72hz for movies. I think it just depends on your eyes, and some of us are a little unlucky, heh.

are you guys talking about banding??? all HDTVs have banding to some level...it all has to do with both the internal electronics AND how well the original content is encoded.

are you guys talking about banding??? all HDTVs have banding to some level...it all has to do with both the internal electronics AND how well the original content is encoded.

No we are not talking about banding. And not all displays have banding problems.

every one ive ever seen at BB, from SXRD's to DLPs to ILAs to plasmas to lcds. they all have it to some extent, its a casualty of mpeg compression.

so maybe you can enlighten me on the "rainbow effect"...how can a FLASh of any kind of light be considered a rainbow?? when i think of a rainbow i think of curved bands of color...can you enlighten me further?

Read the thread?

yes i read it and other things...all it says is a flash of red blue and green light...or a flash of yellow light....again, how can this posssibly be called a rainbow?

I keep saying this, but it's uttrly bizarre how incredibly sensitive I am to so many time-based artifacts, such as DLP rainbows (even seeing some break-up on 3 chip models), CRT flicker, LED light break-up...yet I just never spot these rainbows on any plasmas.
seems that good old RH doesnt see it on plasmas either...

For anyone who doesn't see this effect, walk right up to your plasma while some pure white credits are scrolling on a black background. It will look like the white letters are leaving yellow and green streaks as they move. I love my plasma and think it's the best technology out there, but i also am well aware of these rainbows. No one's ever mentioned them to me, though, while watching my TV, and i've had plenty of critical viewers. I did however get lots of comments on the LCD i had before my plasma as far as crushed and greyish blacks. I think this issue is very minor, and even being well aware of it i don't see it often while watching a regular movie or TV show, but it's still there.

Is this effect more annoying than watching a crappy cable sd signal on a crt?

That actually sounds a little different than what I notice as I do not actually see trails, I just see each color seperated, that is if I move my eyes side to side. It is occasionally noticeable on black & white material because, of course. there is more contrast and a lot more white material. Might this be some sort of phosphor lag?

are you guys talking about banding??? all HDTVs have banding to some level...it all has to do with both the internal electronics AND how well the original content is encoded.

Does the pioneer have banding, dithering, actual looking rainbows in the picture sometimes?

Does the pioneer have banding, dithering, actual looking rainbows in the picture sometimes?
yes it does...and most of the time it is due to the mpeg encoding at the source, because the pios decoder is one of the best. i have yet to see any digital signals without some banding to some level, the only time i dont is on some of the highest bandwidth discovery HD shows, etc. i did have the vizio p50 before, and i can tell you flat out the banding was worse on it than on the 5070.

are you guys talking about banding??? all HDTVs have banding to some level...it all has to do with both the internal electronics AND how well the original content is encoded.
No, I'm talking about yellow flashes in any high contrast moving material material. I've never viewed a dlp in a home environment and never bothered looking at them much in the stores, so I don't know how much this resembles the rbe on those. I find it to be similar to the glowing green/yellow trails on crts, only instead of trails they are very bright flashes. In some scenes the yellow/green flashes can be quite jarring, but luckily I don't notice them most of the time. Usually just 1-3 times a movie.

Anyone: "Is this effect more annoying than watching a crappy cable SD signal on a CRT?"

Anyone: "Is this effect more annoying than watching a crappy cable SD signal on a CRT?"

Good lord; maybe only < 0.1% of all plasma owners can actually see this if at all.

No, I'm talking about yellow flashes in any high contrast moving material material. I've never viewed a dlp in a home environment and never bothered looking at them much in the stores, so I don't know how much this resembles the rbe on those. I find it to be similar to the glowing green/yellow trails on crts, only instead of trails they are very bright flashes. In some scenes the yellow/green flashes can be quite jarring, but luckily I don't notice them most of the time. Usually just 1-3 times a movie.
i just watched the white credits scrolling on the black background on HBO HD after watching mr and mrssmith...with the pure cinema set to ADV which is 3:3 pulldown, the letters stayed very clear as they scrolled up the screen, and i saw no colors other than white or black...no yellow, blue, green, or any other colors splitting up. maybe you just need to buy a quality set.

Good lord; maybe only < 0.1% of all plasma owners can actually see this if at all.


So this is much ado about nothing, then. Thanks for the input.

For me, the hardpart is the yellow "flashing" Even if high contrast, fast movment is not on the screen.. just the act of switching my eyes from a bright object on the screen to a dark one will sometimes cause this "Flash"

Tonight, for example.. was watching BSG rerun.. the corridors on this ship are faily dark, with bright lights placed alongside.. whenever somebody passed by the lights, or even if i moved my eyes to focus on something else.. yellow flash again.

I've even seen it on the cuffs or collars of people in black suits.. if they move fast..

I went upstairs, turned to the same channel on a Sony Grand WEGA 32" CRT.. no such problem.. I tried moving close, far away.. shaking my eyes from side to side.. lights on, off. ect.


In the end, I'm returning my Plasma.. I'm getting an LCD instead.

I don't want to, the Plasma is so rich.. but this "flashing" is tiring, it ruins my enjoyment.. it actualy starts to "hurt" after a couple of hours..

So I'll have to settle for a"flatter picture".. "grey-blacks" ect... it's better than the visual discomfort I'm feeling now.

To the majority of you whom don't notice or are bothered by these effects.. you are so very, very lucky.

i just watched the white credits scrolling on the black background on HBO HD after watching mr and mrssmith...with the pure cinema set to ADV which is 3:3 pulldown, the letters stayed very clear as they scrolled up the screen, and i saw no colors other than white or black...no yellow, blue, green, or any other colors splitting up. maybe you just need to buy a quality set.
It's on my friend's pioneer 5060 with 3:3 pulldown enabled where it's needed. You should just consider yourself lucky that you can't see it :). This is like someone coming into a dlp rainbow thread and claiming they don't exist just because they can't see them. If you look earlier in this thread you will see where I noted seeing this. I never said I saw it in credits since I've never really seen credits on his tv. Just movies on dvd and numerous tv shows, and the dvd is stopped before the credits roll. It's not bad, just 1-4 times per movie or show if it's showing the high contrast content that brings it out for me.

yes it does...and most of the time it is due to the mpeg encoding at the source, because the pios decoder is one of the best.

Well i disagree there because the same problematic scenes with dithering and banding dont show up on lcd, crt. I agree though the pioneer is probably less annoying with dithering compared to vizo, but i come to the conclusion it's straight up a flaw with plasma technology. The picture the vizo gives is unreal at times and can hang or surpass pioneer anyday of the week, black levels, color accuracy, brightness, clarity. HD is superb. It just cant get better. But yet shows plasma true colors imo with noise,dithering-actual looking rainbows, and the dlp rainbow effect with bright scenes, or dark scenes with white in them.

For anyone that says their sensitive to dlp rainbows and dont see the plasma rainbow effect, not the dithering rainbows, i dont know what to say their but it is extremely similar. The difference is dlp has rainbows with dark scenes, plasma has it with bright scenes, and dark with white in them. B&W movies like sin city are a killer..

I think the effect also is more noticeable with the amount of white your plasma produces. I know watching credits with the vizo it can produce extremely bright white credits compared to other plasmas i've seen.

If plasma was perfect it would have no.
Dithering-banding-actual looking rainbows in the picture
DLP like rainbow effect
Tendancy for whites to look a little pinkish at times.
Less noise which plasma is very revealing and seems to enhance noise.

If plasma was perfect it would have no.
Dithering-banding-actual looking rainbows in the picture
DLP like rainbow effect
Tendancy for whites to look a little pinkish at times.
Less noise which plasma is very revealing and seems to enhance noise.

for my pioneer 5070:

1. again, i dont see any of this "banding" other than what comes from the mpeg encoding
2. i dont see these rainbows and i have pretty good eyes, my vision is 20-15
3. my whites look a little bluish, not pinkish, and i like bluish whites and couldnt care less about 6500K whites
4. with my noise reduction set to medium, i see almost no noise while retaining sharpness.

4. with my noise reduction set to medium, i see almost no noise while retaining sharpness.

Probably a placebo effect. I never read anything good about noise reduction and it's almost always preffered to leave it off. Interesting.

have you seen it in action on a pioneer? they implement it very well.

Not on the pioneer, but on my sony lcd noise reduction adds motion trails, on the vizio it dont do nothing.

For me, the hardpart is the yellow "flashing" Even if high contrast, fast movment is not on the screen.. just the act of switching my eyes from a bright object on the screen to a dark one will sometimes cause this "Flash"

Tonight, for example.. was watching BSG rerun.. the corridors on this ship are faily dark, with bright lights placed alongside.. whenever somebody passed by the lights, or even if i moved my eyes to focus on something else.. yellow flash again.

I've even seen it on the cuffs or collars of people in black suits.. if they move fast..

I went upstairs, turned to the same channel on a Sony Grand WEGA 32" CRT.. no such problem.. I tried moving close, far away.. shaking my eyes from side to side.. lights on, off. ect.


In the end, I'm returning my Plasma.. I'm getting an LCD instead.

I don't want to, the Plasma is so rich.. but this "flashing" is tiring, it ruins my enjoyment.. it actualy starts to "hurt" after a couple of hours..

So I'll have to settle for a"flatter picture".. "grey-blacks" ect... it's better than the visual discomfort I'm feeling now.

To the majority of you whom don't notice or are bothered by these effects.. you are so very, very lucky.

All of the flaws i mention are not on lcd. But yet plasma still produces the best image. lcd can range from grey black, to straight up looking blueish black it's famous for. Plasma black levels win by long shot. GL

For me, the hardpart is the yellow "flashing" Even if high contrast, fast movment is not on the screen.. just the act of switching my eyes from a bright object on the screen to a dark one will sometimes cause this "Flash"

Tonight, for example.. was watching BSG rerun.. the corridors on this ship are faily dark, with bright lights placed alongside.. whenever somebody passed by the lights, or even if i moved my eyes to focus on something else.. yellow flash again.

I've even seen it on the cuffs or collars of people in black suits.. if they move fast..

I went upstairs, turned to the same channel on a Sony Grand WEGA 32" CRT.. no such problem.. I tried moving close, far away.. shaking my eyes from side to side.. lights on, off. ect.


In the end, I'm returning my Plasma.. I'm getting an LCD instead.

I don't want to, the Plasma is so rich.. but this "flashing" is tiring, it ruins my enjoyment.. it actualy starts to "hurt" after a couple of hours..

So I'll have to settle for a"flatter picture".. "grey-blacks" ect... it's better than the visual discomfort I'm feeling now.

To the majority of you whom don't notice or are bothered by these effects.. you are so very, very lucky.

This could have been written by me as i suffer from the exact same problem !
Scrollings with bright lights in BSG corridors do produce some REAL green rainbow for my eyes, very annoying.
I hate LCDs and Plasma hate me, i guess i'm screwed...

I haven't read this entire thread, but I find the subject interesting. I am extremely sensitive to RBE on DLP and cannot watch one for more than a few minutes without a headache and eye strain. Even 3-ship DLP is impossible for me to watch. I'm sure I would be in the major minority on this issue.

I have had a 42" Panny ED plasma for a few years and have never seen anything like RBE, but I just finished auditioning a bunch of plasmas at home and I noticed something that looked like RBE or an occasional flashing of sort that matches some of the descriptions in this thread.

For those who see this I wonder if there will be a plasma that works for you. I auditioned a number of plasmas and I only recall noticing this on the Pioneer models...5070 and Elite 1140 I had in-house. I didn't notice it on the Samsung, Panny, or Fujitsu.

^^^turn on the ADV 3:3 pulldown and you wont see it.

Do the flashs i see when moving my eyes from white to black part are due to the different green-decay time or is it a different thing ?

I haven't read this entire thread, but I find the subject interesting. I am extremely sensitive to RBE on DLP and cannot watch one for more than a few minutes without a headache and eye strain. Even 3-ship DLP is impossible for me to watch. I'm sure I would be in the major minority on this issue.

I have had a 42" Panny ED plasma for a few years and have never seen anything like RBE, but I just finished auditioning a bunch of plasmas at home and I noticed something that looked like RBE or an occasional flashing of sort that matches some of the descriptions in this thread.

For those who see this I wonder if there will be a plasma that works for you. I auditioned a number of plasmas and I only recall noticing this on the Pioneer models...5070 and Elite 1140 I had in-house. I didn't notice it on the Samsung, Panny, or Fujitsu.
This issue is really weird about who can see it. I have only ever watched a 3-chip dlp projection set up in a real theatre when I saw sin city, and I noticed no rbe at all. I also am not very sensitive to flicker on a crt tv playing a movie (flicker kills me on crt monitors no matter how high the refresh rate though). But even when watching little miss sunshine on a Pioneer 5060 with 3:3/72hhz enabled it was pretty easy to see the green flashes. However, they are few and far between. But I decided to test how it would be if I quickly moved my eyes from one side of the screen to the other (since people have reported that this brings the effect out), and then the green after-images/flashes are constant. So I imagine that maybe you are noticing this now because the plasma is larger, and so maybe you are moving your eyes more as things happen on different areas of the screen.

No one else that I know that has seen this tv can see the green flashes. So you are probably just among the unlucky minority.

I should really test if I can see this the next time I go to gawk at the 65px600u. It's always playing 8-below which really isn't the best material to bring this effect out for me, especially since I have only ever seen the tv during the slow indoor sections on that tv and only for a few minutes at a time. But maybe if I try to bring out the effect by moving my eyes quickly from one side of the screen to the other I can bring the effect out on that movie. I highly doubt that the panasonic would be any better, since plenty of panny users have reported that they can see it in this thread.

For me, the hardpart is the yellow "flashing" Even if high contrast, fast movment is not on the screen.. just the act of switching my eyes from a bright object on the screen to a dark one will sometimes cause this "Flash"

Tonight, for example.. was watching BSG rerun.. the corridors on this ship are faily dark, with bright lights placed alongside.. whenever somebody passed by the lights, or even if i moved my eyes to focus on something else.. yellow flash again.

I've even seen it on the cuffs or collars of people in black suits.. if they move fast..


I don't want to, the Plasma is so rich.. but this "flashing" is tiring, it ruins my enjoyment.. it actualy starts to "hurt" after a couple of hours..

So I'll have to settle for a"flatter picture".. "grey-blacks" ect... it's better than the visual discomfort I'm feeling now.

To the majority of you whom don't notice or are bothered by these effects.. you are so very, very lucky.


I feel exactly the same way, and your description of the problem sounds exactly as I percieve it.
It is so annoying; I really like mye Panasonic 42 otherwise but these yellow flashes are too straining for my eyes.
I don`t want a LCD so I guess I`m stuck with my old and small :( Crt until some new tech. comes along...

I don`t want a LCD so I guess I`m stuck with my old and small :( Crt until some new tech. comes along...

I had to return my pany 60 for the exact same reason. I went to the shop with a DVD i made to check if the problem was the same on all the plasmas and the answer is yes. They all have green/yellow trailing issue, some can't see it but if you do, other brands is just the same. And of course moving from bright to dark spot could also bring yellow flashes.

I just brought back my old CRT from the celar. LCDs suffer too much from banding, clouding, and all other crap. Having a good set is just plain lotery. I won't considering them until they opt for backlight led, which won't happen before 2008.

Waiting is bliss...

This might very well be a stupid question, but: Can the same problem occur on LCD-screens with LED-backlights such as for example LG has started using? The reason why I am asking is because some of you mentioned that you see a similar effect on cars with LED brakelights. Or is this totally unrelated amd LCD screens are safe from this problem whatever technology it uses?

By the way: I`m norwegian so my english is not the best but I hope you can understand my questrion...

Hi, iv got a panasonic 42"px60. Im having a real problem with the rainbow, trailing effect.
On certain programs it is very bad with a yellow/green effect followig movement on certain areas. Even on programs were it isnt as bad, if i start moving my eyes left and right i see it.
Now i have read most of the comments on here, so i guess my question is...

.....is this definatly just down to my own eyes reacting with the plasma. The reason i say this is i have had the tv for 3 weeks and i am certain i didn't see this for the first week. It is so noticeable and annoying i couldn't of missed it surely.

The only thing i can think of is, did my eyes get worse?
Or has the tv got worse?

Had a quick look in curry's today at the tv's and couldn't see any traces of green/rainbow effect.
Dont really know what to do, any ideas?

Cheers for the help people.

Nothing changed in your eyes, you just started noticing it is all. Once you "see" an artifact for the first time, you'll start seeing it all the time.

Stores are usually very brightly lit, so these things are very difficult to see.

stardamage - I see these flashes on my TH-50PHD8UK with ONE exception - HD material which is brightly lit (like football, etc).

On any other material - I see them, and they are PITA.

Folks who see them tend to see them on ALL plasmas, but it may be possible that you'll see less of them on other brands.

I'd go to a retailer which has darkened viewing rooms, like Harvey's, Magnolia, etc. I'd take a DVD with me that clearly shows flashes, and I would audition the plasmas with that DVD. I'd dart my eyes left and right for good measure while watching. :)

In fact, I'll probably do it in 1-2 years when I am ready to upgrade, hoping that the new crop of plasmas will have that problem eliminated or significantly lessened (not holding my breath, though). Otherwise, it's LCD time for me. :(

I recently purchased a Pioneer 427XD (UK Model) plasma, having previously owned a Panasonic LCD. Whilst the picture is fantastic, I see yellow flashes quite frequently on DVD's, and find it distracting, almost having to refocus my eyes on what I was viewing.

Does the effect lessen the more the screen is used, or will it always be as bad?

I know you can try and ignore something like this, but I'm not looking for it and still find it jarring and it affects my concentration.

I recently purchased a Pioneer 427XD (UK Model) plasma, having previously owned a Panasonic LCD. Whilst the picture is fantastic, I see yellow flashes quite frequently on DVD's, and find it distracting, almost having to refocus my eyes on what I was viewing.

Does the effect lessen the more the screen is used, or will it always be as bad?

I know you can try and ignore something like this, but I'm not looking for it and still find it jarring and it affects my concentration.

McKinley - the effect did not lessen for me over time. It varies from DVD to DVD, obviously. I tend to see more flashes with high contrast material (ie bright objects on a dark background).

Try reducing the contrast on your plasma - it may help.

I am not sure if a good outboard processor helps. I am afraid this "problem" affects too few people, hence there is relatively little info out there.

Not sure if this is related, but I found this on Wikipedia from an article about human vision.

Afterimages
After exposure to strong light in their sensitivity range, photoreceptors of a given type become desensitized. For a few seconds after the light ceases, they will continue to signal less strongly than they otherwise would. Colors observed during that period will appear to lack the color component detected by the desensitized photoreceptors. This effect is responsible for the phenomenon of afterimages, in which the eye may continue to see a bright figure after looking away from it, but in a complementary color.

McKinley - the effect did not lessen for me over time. It varies from DVD to DVD, obviously. I tend to see more flashes with high contrast material (ie bright objects on a dark background).

Try reducing the contrast on your plasma - it may help.

I am not sure if a good outboard processor helps. I am afraid this "problem" affects too few people, hence there is relatively little info out there.

Thanks for the reply.
Unfortunately I originally had the contrast low (now calibrated with DVE) for running in, but still saw the flashes then anyway.

I was really hoping that the phosphor would 'settle' after a reasonable number of hours were clocked up, and that the red and green would hang around a little less than when the panel was new. Sadly if this doesn't happen I'm going to be stuck with an effect I can't help but see even if I'm ignoring it :(

Don't want to go back to LCD, but don't seem to have a lot of choice.

Thanks for the reply.
Unfortunately I originally had the contrast low (now calibrated with DVE) for running in, but still saw the flashes then anyway.

I was really hoping that the phosphor would 'settle' after a reasonable number of hours were clocked up, and that the red and green would hang around a little less than when the panel was new. Sadly if this doesn't happen I'm going to be stuck with an effect I can't help but see even if I'm ignoring it :(

Don't want to go back to LCD, but don't seem to have a lot of choice.

You, I, and about 200 other people in the world are in the same boat, unfortunately... :D

I plan to put up with my plasma for another 2 years, by which time, I hope, LCD will deliver a display I can live with.

Luckily, live sports in HD look great on my plasma, and that's what I care about (for now).

As i wrote above, these yellow trails have been dring me nuts.
Im not sure yet as its only been a day, but i'v been off work with the flu and i didn't notice any trails. I thought maybe its because its a bright day outside, but then i tried it in a darkened room and still very little signs of any trails.

So i thought what else is differant and i worked out that because i was ill i was just staring at the middle of the screen like a zombie, which is probably what you usually do more or less. The first week or so i had the tv i didnt notice any, but then once i noticed the problem my eyes are allways very busy moving left and right.

All im saying is today because i didnt even think of looking for it there was very little, and to me it was an acceptable days viewing. I may be completely wrong so take it with a pinch of salt rather than getting your hopes up too much.

I also think it would explain the headaches as its more likely people would get them from constant sharp eye movemant whilst looking at the telly than from the traces/rainbow itself.

ok so just tested out my theory on flight plan, and it is still quite bad, but that is a pretty etreme test as its full of dark area's with very bright lights.

i was just staring at the middle of the screen like a zombie, which is probably what you usually do more or less.... snip...

LOL.

I do, wondering why the hell I bought this plasma...

:D

Just wanted to contribute my 2 cents. I just bought a Pioneer 5070. Hadn't expected to see any artifacts as usually I don't think I'm that sensitive to that sort of thing, but I also see the rainbow effect. For me it is more of a rainbow than pure yellow. I believe it's mostly yellow with a little bit of red and blue and the end. I only see it in very high contrast scenes -- mostly dark with just small areas of very bright light. I saw it most recently while watching Battlestar Galactica. It is almost unnoticeable during daytime but very noticeable at night, and for me almost the only time I see it is when I blink, during the blink. I guess that's probably similar to rapid eye movement or shaking your hand in front of your eyes. I have it set to the D-Nice post-break-in settings, so it's turned down quite a bit and not in Dynamic mode or anything. I am sitting about 8 feet away from the TV, and I see it on HD signals from the cable box.

OH MY GOD !!!!

This is crazy ... I was out looking at LCD and PDP set today. Reason I am looking for a new set is due to the crazy RBE I see on my current "Short Owned" DLP set that even has a fast 14000 RPM color wheel.

While watching a demo on both the Panasonic Viera TH50PX60 and the Pioneer DP-5070HD I noticed these weird YELLOW FLASHES .... I found it odd, and found it did remind me of my DLP RBE but only in more of a yellow smear streak. So to look into it, I did a search and ended up here.

JUST FRIGGEN GREAT ........ now I am down to LCD as an option.

I may take my chances with the banding and buy the 1080p 52" Sharp LCD set.

Just to clarify, I still love my set and the picture it produces. I notice the rainbow, but in such limited circumstances that at least so far it has not negatively impacted my viewing experience. I can live with it just fine. However, if they get to you and you don't like them on a DLP, then I would avoid plasma and go with LCD assuming there isn't some sort of effect there -- has anyone ever reported any form of rainbow on an LCD with or without LED backlighting?

You know, perhaps as a solution people could just watch less television...

It's probably the best thing to do all around.

I see Judy Garland whenever i look at a Plasma :)

I will be going with the 58" Panny 600u. My local shop has fantastic staff that are very helpful in all regards. Very "In The Know" as well, much unlike most local shops.

I only seen the odd yellow flash here and there. But my only fear is once I get it home in my own environment for viewing it does not become an issue.

However, while watching the pioneer elite next to it ... it was sooo easy to spot. I wonder if the differenct gases or whatever mix in the Panny is different. I liked the look of the elite, but I will stay with the Panny since I find the Pioneer FOR SURE showed it off to me a stink load more, when it may be only a minor annoyance on my Panny.

Cheers

*** EDIT March 13th, 2007***

Well as it turns out, I see it like crazy on the Panny as well. I acutally found it MORE annoying than the DLP RBE since the RBE on the DLP was caused by MY EYES moving fast across the screen, but with the PDP I can see it regardless of my eye movement. IT IS ALWAYS THERE ... fast or slow pans. At least with the DLP RBE I can reduce them to a minimum by controlling my eyes... not the case with the PDP.

Slow pan = smaller yellow smear
Fast Pan = Large Smear

Even if I keep my eyes glued I can see them. On an high contrast edge it is in my face.

I was only one day past the 14 day return period and really hope the guys at my local shop help me out with a refund. I have bought from there before WAY BACK and enjoyed dealing with them. I guess the outcome will make or break my relationship with them and decide where my future purchases are made. I do have faith however !!

i see this on my westinghouse LVM-37w3 37", it annoys me, I was watching sin city over DVI the other day. From my pc. Jeez the yellow flashes were so annoying i couldnt watch it anymore. I dont really see it while playing xbox 360 though.

turn on 3:3 pulldown on the pioneers and you will hardly see it.

You know, perhaps as a solution people could just watch less television...

It's probably the best thing to do all around.

DITTO!

Don't see it on my P55 Fujitsu at all. Am I missing something?

i see it on my westinghouse, on high contrast films, like Sin city .

Don't see it on my P55 Fujitsu at all. Am I missing something?

No you're not, the vast majority of plasma owners never report this issue. ;)

Well... Some people see the Virgin Mary in pancakes, Jesus in trees and Saints in mountains. So... this guy sees rainbows in plasmas

Much like the RBE on DLP, it's a SMALL NUMBER of folks that see this stuff (even small number with the yellow flash in PDP). Don't knock us for what we see .... but rather, be happy "YOU" do not !!

Just because you do not see it does not mean it does not exist. Trust me .... I SEE IT VERY CLEAR .... and it drives me nuts.

Interestingly I see RBE on DLPs and SSE on sets like the Sony SXRDs...enough so that I would never consider them, but I've never seen a rainbow on any plasma I've ever seen or owned. Of course the rainbows I've seen on my plasmas on Discovery HD are beautiful. ;)

No you're not, the vast majority of plasma owners never report this issue. ;)

Thanks!
I know that Plasma and LCD technology is not perfect and I do see various artifacts on both. Clearly Plasma has less flaws than LCD and CRT is best.
We use high res black and white LCD's for medical imaging and I can tell you they are no where near perfect(backlighting issues, stuck pixels,etc) and most Radiologists prefer CRT. Which is why I choose Plasma for my display.

Anyway I am glad to know that I am not the only one who doesn't see rainbows...

Without being 'flip', I've even suggested that perhaps this is really some eye defect in those that see it. I'm certainly not saying it is, but I've thrown it out as a possibility. I say this only because there are so so many plasma owners out there and so very few seem to have this issue.

So please, if you're one that does, I'm not saying this in a disparaging manner.

Much like the RBE on DLP, it's a SMALL NUMBER of folks that see this stuff (even small number with the yellow flash in PDP). Don't knock us for what we see .... but rather, be happy "YOU" do not !!

Just because you do not see it does not mean it does not exist. Trust me .... I SEE IT VERY CLEAR .... and it drives me nuts.I've owned a 50" plasma for a year and a half and I occasionally notice what your seeing. I see it primarily on high contrast black & white programs with fast movement. I.E... fast scrolling credits or someone moving across a scene rapidly. It doesn't bother me because I don't see it often and because the set looks Soooooo good otherwise. I think it's possible that most people can 'tune out' the slight effect you see constantly and I offer this comparison...
Many (if not most) plasma owners came from owning 32" or larger CRT's. From normal seating distances anyone with average vision could detect scan lines on these sets but most of us didn't find them distracting because we were so used to seeing them that we didn't really notice them, even though they're visible 100% of the time. I never found them distracting on my CRT until I got used to the plasma. Now when I watch the CRT they ARE distracting. This can only be because I'm no longer accustomed to seeing them and therefore my brain no longer automatically tunes then out.

I guess what I'm suggesting is that you might see this effect less as time goes by. Either way, you're not crazy unless we both are (a possibility I admit). ;)

Ken its no "eye defect" I would say that people that see it have better then normal vision to notice it more easily. ANYONE can see the yellow/green trails. Ken, it says that you are from NY, thats too bad Im from Toronto because I would call you to my house and SHOW you the effect. EVERYONE that Ive shown it too can see it. The thing is that durring normal viewing it's not the bothersome. Sin City would be the best way to see it. Watch any white object move over a dark object on a medium to fast pan and you will see a green or yellow trail guranteed. Rainbow effect is not as big an issue but it can definetely be a problem with Black and white movies. Also, viewing distance is a big factor. Those that sit closer will see the trails much easier then those at a greater distance.

Ken, you've mentioned numerous times throughout this thread that you don't see it and with comments like people must have some eye defect to see it is getting annoying. Its great that YOU don't see it, but it's there. Im serious though. If your ever near Toronto, make a post on this forum and come on over and I will show you what trails look like. Ken, the trailing is so obvious once you see it, that you'll think your an idiot for not noticing it before. Thats not an insult, but its like me at work and someone asks me where the Sharp 46" TV is and they have the remote in their hand looking right at it.

Has anyone who sees this problem noticed if it is more severe for you with newer plasmas or if it gets better at all as they age? I have a big problem with this issue on Pioneer panels and I wonder if it would lessen over time.

It does not lessen over time, but you will slowly get used to it and stop looking for it and it won't be as bad over time. But, pysically it's always there and won't go away.

No you're not, the vast majority of plasma owners never report this issue. ;)

Or, he doesn't see it because it's not really there and y'all that have these psychadelic screen artifacts just have EXTREMELY sensitive vision or have some type of epillepsy.

We don't report it because the issue is vision related and not the technology. Some people are sensitive to things like that and I understand their frustrations. But, don't try and make it out to be a plasma-wide picture quality conspiracy or something. Its just sensitive vision and thats it.

In all my years on internet forums for various hobbies such as telescopes, audio, slot cars, etc, etc I have NEVER seen soooooo many posts about wierd *phenomenon* than on the HDTV forums.

Gee Whizz...... :rolleyes: :)

We don't report it because the issue is vision related and not the technology. Some people are sensitive to things like that and I understand their frustrations. But, don't try and make it out to be a plasma-wide picture quality conspiracy or something. Its just sensitive vision and thats it.


I disagree, it IS a flaw with plasma technology. Just like the rainbow effect for dlp, which is extremely similar. All i can say is watch a black and white movie or turn your color all the way down to see this effect. If you cant be grateful, but dont claim it's not there. It clearly is a plasma flaw, fujitsus are no different, just like different makes of dlp tv's.

R Harkness. If you want to see the rainbows and/or trails pop in an old black and white movie and you should be able to see them easily after a while. If you want to really see them, then just dart your eyes back and forth across the screen while watching a black and white movie. If you still can't see them then you never will. I rarely see rainbows. (I do see green trails often while gaming. Very easy to see and anyone Ive shown it to can easily see it without trying)

Yea if you cant see color flashes then you wont see the effect.


Also, how many of you that see the rainbows have darting eyes? What I mean is that some people when you look them in the eyes their eyes aren't steady but are constantly shifting or moving about.

I see it alot more, everytime if i dart them back and forth. It's not like i see it all the time if i'm concentrating watching a movie, but it does remind me now and then. It's as if plasmas picture is always 'pulsating', on a paused scene i see stuff moving, dont know wha the heck that is :p

It's as if plasmas picture is always 'pulsating', on a paused scene i see stuff moving, dont know wha the heck that is

It's funny that you mention that. I've never really posted this on any forum either, but it kind of reminds me of the refresh flicker I would see on a CRT monitor running at 60hz or less.

I disagree, it IS a flaw with plasma technology. Just like the rainbow effect for dlp, which is extremely similar. All i can say is watch a black and white movie or turn your color all the way down to see this effect. If you cant be grateful, but dont claim it's not there. It clearly is a plasma flaw, fujitsus are no different, just like different makes of dlp tv's.

S2mikey is correct.
This 'issue' has been reported on just about EVERY display tech and it is not plasma specific and to label it so is misleading at best. :rolleyes:

It is a possibility that what some people are reporting as a "rainbow effect" is actually dissimilar lag (temporary retention) in the red, green and blue phosphors of the plasma.

That could be a possibility. The only caveat is that it should be observed on a CRT as well.

I disagree, it IS a flaw with plasma technology. Just like the rainbow effect for dlp, which is extremely similar. All i can say is watch a black and white movie or turn your color all the way down to see this effect. If you cant be grateful, but dont claim it's not there. It clearly is a plasma flaw, fujitsus are no different, just like different makes of dlp tv's.

Could be, Zeus. I guess my thing is that if we don't see it then in a sense it's NOT really there.

Ya know, "tree falls in the woods, noone is there to hear it does it make a sound?" story. Same thing applies: If a plasma is creating rainbow effects but a lot of us don't see them.... then are they *really* there? Yes and No I guess. :confused:

Oh well, I dont see them so good for me! ;)

I saw an artifact like this when darting my eyes back and forth really fast.
Wife said, 'cut it out, you look dopey'.

Worked like a charm.

It is a possibility that what some people are reporting as a "rainbow effect" is actually dissimilar lag (temporary retention) in the red, green and blue phosphors of the plasma.

That could be a possibility. The only caveat is that it should be observed on a CRT as well.

That's absolutely correct, and was explained earlier in the thread. And indeed, it is observable on CRTs as well.

It is a possibility that what some people are reporting as a "rainbow effect" is actually dissimilar lag (temporary retention) in the red, green and blue phosphors of the plasma.

That could be a possibility. The only caveat is that it should be observed on a CRT as well.Or perhaps it could be attributed to your Cable TV provider’s crappy signal. :mad:

Or perhaps it could be attributed to your Cable TV provider’s crappy signal. :mad:

And exactly how does a crappy cable signal result in different phosphor decay times???????????????? :confused:

I also went to a local HomeMedia store and sat in their pro room... looking at a Pioneer Pro profesionally tweaked out... thought there was nothing... but then they changed the channel to a movie of the Addams Family and SCREAMING rainbows showed up in people's white shirts.

dalandis

Okay, this may be a wild hunch, but plasma displays have a RGB pattern to their phosphor dots, just like a CRT. When you have a picture with a periodic pattern of B&W stripes, very close together, these can hetrodyne against the stripe mask and cause rainbows in a moire pattern. I've seen this with interview shows in which someone is wearing a shirt or suit with vertical stripes. When the camera is in focus, the stripes resolve somewhere early in the signal chain, but further out, they may merge into a solid grey, but the rainbow pattern is left because of "aliasing" against either the stripe mask in the video camera (not likely with 3-tube broadcast cameras) or somewhere in the signal processing. If it does make it to your TV, it could be aliasing against the trio of color stripes.
The reason this is not seen on LCD is because all three color primaries are stacked one on top of the other, not next to eachother.

Just a hunch.

And exactly how does a crappy cable signal result in different phosphor decay times???????????????? :confused:Garbage in = garbage out.

Or perhaps it could be attributed to your Cable TV provider’s crappy signal. :mad:

No, the artifacts being described here are temporal in nature and are not related to the content. They can be isolated by pausing an image on the screen and observing the after-effects of the phosphor delay "rainbows." Again, as I explained earlier in the thread, these are quite distinct in principle from the rainbow-effect on a single chip DLP, but they have a similar characteristic in terms of them being temporal colored artifacts.

This has all been hashed out earlier in the thread if you actually read through it. People suggesting that it is due to source issues or insanity or other issues are not being helpful, and it illustrates a failure to understand the artifact being described her. Furthermore, it is an artifact that realistically is unlikely to bother the VAST majority of viewers.

Okay, this may be a wild hunch, but plasma displays have a RGB pattern to their phosphor dots, just like a CRT. When you have a picture with a periodic pattern of B&W stripes, very close together, these can hetrodyne against the stripe mask and cause rainbows in a moire pattern. I've seen this with interview shows in which someone is wearing a shirt or suit with vertical stripes. When the camera is in focus, the stripes resolve somewhere early in the signal chain, but further out, they may merge into a solid grey, but the rainbow pattern is left because of "aliasing" against either the stripe mask in the video camera (not likely with 3-tube broadcast cameras) or somewhere in the signal processing. If it does make it to your TV, it could be aliasing against the trio of color stripes.
The reason this is not seen on LCD is because all three color primaries are stacked one on top of the other, not next to eachother.

Just a hunch.

Again, this is not what is being seen.

I don't mean to be dismissive, but hunches or suggestions are not particularly helpful to the thread. Read back in the whole thread, all these things have been discussed before, and the nature of the artifact has been explained and documented as well. Moire is not at all what is being seen here.

Whatever it is I wish it would go away :) I'd like to share what I'm finding in reviews of plasmas regarding this issue.

I am the most visually sensitive person I know and this issue is driving me nuts. I have 3 plasmas at home right now and I've spent a ridiculous amount of time evaluating plasmas at home and in the store over the last few months.

There are a few things I can say for certainty with regards to this issue for me alone:

I notice it much more on Pioneer-based plasmas. I've had 3 in my home in the last 4 months and I see the problem without having to dart my eyes at all. Just turn on some content with medium-high contrast and I can see it from 25 feet away in my kitchen on a 50" plasma! I watched a few minutes of The Wedding Date last night where everyone is in dark suits standing outside prior to the wedding and the rainbows were very apparent as it is in other movies. Watching black and white movies is nearly impossible for me with all of the flashing I see on these displays. I told my wife that it's extremely annoying and could maybe be likened to someone standing behind the TV and shining a little pen light in your eyes occasionally while you're watching TV. This is a little dramatic, but it should give some idea as to how annoying it could be.

It's still visible, but not nearly as noticeable on Panasonic-based plasmas. I think this is for two reasons--the effect just seems to happen less frequently on these displays for some reason, and/or it seems to not be as bright or have as much color information. Sometime it just seems like a quick flash of white or yellow and not always a full bright rainbow of colors, if you will, like I see on the Pioneer units. Overall though it's more difficult to spot and doesn't seem to catch the eye as much for me on the Panasonic-based plasmas.

It's not source dependent, but it does vary by display. Right now I have a Fujitsu and a Runco plasma in my living room connected to digital cable via Comcast and an HD DVD player. I can see rainbows on the Runco very easily with either source. This is the same as I've seen with the Pioneer 5070 and 1140, both of which I have also had at home. It's much more difficult to spot this issue on the Fujitsu with the same source/content and similar initial AVIA calibration. In fact, it's basically a non-issue on the Fujitsu as it's so much less noticeable.

It doesn't give me eye strain and headaches like watching DLP. It's just super annoying. So I could live with it if I chose to, but it's prevalent enough that I would frequently see it and I could not ignore it.

I have a 4 year old Panasonic commercial ED plasma and I don't see anything significant in this regard on that unit. They may be there, but I can't spot them easily even if I try. I can't help but wonder if it has something to do with the fact that the older plasma has lower contrast, but I really don't know.

This is a significant enough problem for me that I've spent a number of days trying to decide if I can live with it on the Runco as it's just about the only thing stopping me from keeping it over the Fujitsu. I probably shouldn't have tried the Runco, but I was hoping it would be a problem. I may actually buy a plasma I don't completely prefer, in the Fujitsu, because of this issue so it's definitely very real...for me.

I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed the issue varying from one brand of plasma to another?

That's absolutely correct, and was explained earlier in the thread. And indeed, it is observable on CRTs as well.

Totally different effect, unique to plasma.

It's still visible, but not nearly as noticeable on Panasonic-based plasmas.

Sounds like that is your solution then?
Just to update I do not see this artifact any more on my year old 42PHD8 as I assume the phosphors have equalised as they died off.

This is exactly the same behaviour I got on my previous 37pw5 ( a lovely panel) visible rainbowing for the first couple of months with the effect then dying off completely.

Totally different effect, unique to plasma.

Sorry looks exactly the same as unequal phosphor decay rates on CRT based displays.