Sorry looks exactly the same as unequal phosphor decay rates on CRT based displays.

My crt pc monitor, or tube tv dont have the same effect. Nowhere near.

My crt pc monitor, or tube tv dont have the same effect. Nowhere near.

Its possible your particular display does not exhibit the effect.
Its possible your visual system does not percieve the effect.

However the artifact itself is pretty much identical to unequal phosphor decay rates exhibited by CRT based display devices ( one reason I don't actually like CRT projectors that much).

It does not lessen over time, but you will slowly get used to it and stop looking for it and it won't be as bad over time. But, pysically it's always there and won't go away.

In my experience with two panasonic plasmas the effect minimises over time to the point its effectively no longer happening. New plasma has the effect , older plasma no longe has it . Over time the newer plasma loses the artifact.

This isn't a question of getting used to the artifact. The artifact is physically no longer present as the phosphor decays to the point of equilibrium.

Its possible your particular display does not exhibit the effect.

True, because it dont have the same effect.

Its possible your visual system does not percieve the effect.

If crt had the same effect, i would percieve it.

However the artifact itself is pretty much identical to unequal phosphor decay rates exhibited by CRT based display devices ( one reason I don't actually like CRT projectors that much).

Again, the artifact must be totally different than what you're thinking.

The reason this is not seen on LCD is because all three color primaries are stacked one on top of the other, not next to eachother.
Just a hunch.I think most LCDs use spatial RGB subpixels (not stacked).

I don't mean to be dismissive, but hunches or suggestions are not particularly helpful to the thread. Read back in the whole thread, all these things have been discussed before, and the nature of the artifact has been explained and documented as well. Moire is not at all what is being seen here. I was under the impression that this entire thread is based on hunches? When was documented proof given. I don't feel like reading the entire thread again so could you just post it again, thanks :)

The artifact is physically no longer present as the phosphor decays to the point of equilibrium.Please explain this better. What do you mean by point of equiblibrium?


Cheers

And exactly how does a crappy cable signal result in different phosphor decay times?
Garbage in = garbage out.

Wow! Not only is your answer very clever, it is also keenly descriptive and extremely informative. :rolleyes:

Is this an original? If it is, my hats off to you!

It's official; this thread is driving me nuts. :p

True, because it dont have the same effect.



If crt had the same effect, i would percieve it.



Again, the artifact must be totally different than what you're thinking.

"Doesn't" dear boy.

I assume you are inferring you have seen every single CRT display device in the world then?

I've seen this artifact on CRT and I know what it is . (in fact its well documented) The fact it looks exactly the same as the plasma artifact under discussion and it lessens over time as the brightness of the phosphors decreases over time (equilibrium...get it) says to me its the same artifact.

"Doesn't" dear boy.

I assume you are inferring you have seen every single CRT display device in the world then?

I've seen this artifact on CRT and I know what it is . (in fact its well documented) The fact it looks exactly the same as the plasma artifact under discussion and it lessens over time as the brightness of the phosphors decreases over time (equilibrium...get it) says to me its the same artifact.

Mr.D is correct.

It's not visible on a lot of direct view and consumer CRTs because they use green phosphors which are extremely slow to minimize flicker and scanline flicker with interlaced sources so all you're likely to see is giant green trails because the decay is SOO slow. On a high-end or graphics grade CRT monitor with a fast enough green at an appropriate refresh progressively scanne, you can see the decay effects and you can see yellowish-greenish kinds of "rainbow" type artifacts very much like those documented here.

I can see these on my CRT very easily if I run it at around 60hz progressive. I run 72hz progressive and they are mostly not a problem except occasionally with some high contrast content, particularly B&W content. I am particularly susceptible to these kinds of artifacts, most people aren't going to notice them ever.

"Doesn't" dear boy.

Grammer lessons appreciated granpa :)

I assume you are inferring you have seen every single CRT display device in the world then?

Just pc monitor, direc-view- rear projection

I've seen this artifact on CRT and I know what it is . (in fact its well documented) The fact it looks exactly the same as the plasma artifact under discussion and it lessens over time as the brightness of the phosphors decreases over time (equilibrium...get it) says to me its the same artifact.

Just how long does it take to lessen, disappear? Over a year on mine with virtually no change. I still dont think we are talking about the same artifact, effect.

Don't bother arguing with Zues, he's a troll.

If you ever owned a plasma wiggles, or seen the effect we are talking about, maybe you would have a clue? :rolleyes:

OK you guys got me going on this finally with you're unsubstantiated assumptions (hunches if you will). I personally though that the artifact in question sounded like dynamic false contouring (also called "false color") which is a Plasma specific artifact causing color fringing on moving objects. But if you think about it, this cannot be the cause because the color of the fringes/trailing would vary according to content. Yet everyone seems to see only yellow/green trails.

So I went with your assumptions and looked up the ACTUAL current phosphor decay times for PDPs. As you guys have said there is still a wide seperation in decay times even today. Green is the longest, followed by RED and BLUE. So it makes sense that the color fringing/trailing will always be a yellow/green. So the theory sounds plausible.

Now that I agreed with you guys in theory I did some searching to find some actual evidence. It was difficult as the references to phosphor lag and color seperation/perception in CRT or PDP are few and far between.

But I found it :)

(sorry if already posted but I didn't want to read the entire thread again!)

"One of these artefacts is called the "phosphor lag" and is due to the different time responses of the luminous materials making the different colour components used in the panel. This difference generates a kind of yellowish trail behind and a blue area in front of the bright objects moving on a dark background mainly (or the opposite).

FIG. 1 shows the simulation of such a phosphor lag effect on a natural scene with a movement basically in the vertical direction, where the moving white trouser-leg in front of the black background generates such trail.

On a plasma panel, the red, green and blue luminous elements (also named phosphors while not necessarily having the chemical element P) do not have the same properties because of the chemical properties of each phosphor. In addition the life duration and the brightness are privileged at the expense of behaviour homogeneity. Measurements show that the green phosphor is the slowest, the blue one is the fastest and the red one is mostly in-between. Thus, behind a white object in motion, there is a yellow-green trail, and in front a blue area, as illustrated in FIG. 2. Since the red (R), green (G) and blue (B) cells have different response times, at the front and rear of a moving object like a white block, the concerning pixels are discolored.

In the future, the development of new chemical phosphor powders could avoid such problems by making the green and red phosphors quicker. Nevertheless, today it is not possible by signal processing only to completely suppress this effect but one can try to reduce it."

If you want to read the entire patent it is #7042422

Just so you know, this effect CAN be photographed.

Using a slow shutter speed and panning across contrasty B&W content can reveal differing levels of this on a plasma. Have no experience with other sets.

Just so you know, this effect CAN be photographed.

Using a slow shutter speed and panning across contrasty B&W content can reveal differing levels of this on a plasma. Have no experience with other sets.

This would be caused by the camera, not the plasma.

Jon

This would be caused by the camera, not the plasma.

Jon

What is this, a holocaust denier's convention? It's all been explained and documented. If you are like most people and don't see these artifacts, good for you! Don't go looking for them or maybe you will, and don't go thread farting on a thread that doesn't concern you if you don't see them.

What is this, a holocaust denier's convention? It's all been explained and documented. If you are like most people and don't see these artifacts, good for you! Don't go looking for them or maybe you will, and don't go thread farting on a thread that doesn't concern you if you don't see them.

Nah, there are no deniers in this thread. ;)

It's just that all of us who see that crap day in and day out on our plasmas have DEFECTIVE eyesight. :rolleyes:

It's official. I see a rainbow-like effect on every plasma.Cool. :cool: Did you find you're pot of gold at the end of it? :p

Actually, I've been thinking about this for a while. If indeed what you guys are seeing is green flashes; this may explain why most men do not see... color blindness. A majority of men are to some degree color blind. My son and I have trouble with green. Lucky for me, I calibrate medical displays which for the most part are black and white.

Nah, there are no deniers in this thread. ;)

It's just that all of us who see that crap day in and day out on our plasmas have DEFECTIVE eyesight. :rolleyes:

What is more likely:

1. 1% of the population has a defect.
2. 99% of the population has a defect.

So, exactly who is in denial again?

:cool:

This message is hidden because Elemental1 is on your ignore list.

More like 1% of the population is a troll.

So, pointing out logic is now trolling?Remember that it's also possible the small percentage of the population who see this have extraordinary eyesight. Chuck Yeager reportedly had 20/50 vision (could see at 50' what most people see at 20'). That may be abnormal but it's surely not defective.

http://www.kayakfishingspain.com/images/Troll18jan2.jpg

Remember that it's also possible the small percentage of the population who see this have extraordinary eyesight. Chuck Yeager reportedly had 20/50 vision (could see at 50' what most people see at 20'). That may be abnormal but it's surely not defective.

Extraordinary implies improvement over the norm.
Somehow this does not sound like an improvement. :cool:
Sounds more like 'retina latency' to me. ;)
Isn't 20/50 vision really bad? :confused:

Greetings,

Recently purchased a 60inch Pioneer Purevision Plasma, and I'm seeing this plasma rainbow effect too (Plainbow). Here is my experience...

- Areas of bright white adjacent to dark colors sometimes produce perceived flashes of yellow and blue.

- This most commonly occurs after a cut, when the eye changes direction from one actor or object to another, from one area of the screen to another

- Looking around the screen will cause this effect, while it is generally not visible if the eye is focussed in one place

- Black and white video makes it easy to see this phenomena

- I do wear glasses, but can see the effect with our without them

- I have seen the effect on DVDs and TV

I have not found any way to reduce or remove this effect, which I find very distracting.

In considering ways to resolve this, I am interested in the following:

- Could there be any difference in these artifacts when using progressive vs. interlaced video modes.?

- Will higher refresh rate features such as 3:3 pullup/72hz, or upcoming 120hz refresh reduce this problem?

- Does resolution scaling from an upconverting DVD, cable box, or even AV Receiver play any role in this problem?

I would appreciate any suggestions,

John

There is nothing you can do about the plainbows. Really i think you should just sit back and try to enjoy it and see if you are happy with it.

I don't think I can enjoy viewing with plainbows like this. Do you mean to say that all Plasmas will have this problem? I will exchange it if that is what is necessary.

I went to the store and could not see Plainbows on any of their Plasmas (even the same model I have), in any of their light or dark viewing rooms. One difference is that they were using a satellite video feed for their in store demo video.

Could there be a problem coming from the DVD Player, Cable Box, or AV Receiver?

When I switched from DVI/HDMI to Component Video, the color range seemed to improve dramatically, and I couldn't see any plainbows. There is no scaling going on in this case either, so I can't blame the upsampling features.

I still don't see any plainbows when viewing video from a PC on the Plasma. This makes me wonder if the cause of this effect is 24 or 30 fps video. The 60hz VGA output looks better, but I can't get a Cablecard in my PC, AFAIK.

I'm going to switch the cable box to component video and see if that makes any difference. After that, I will try running video sources directly to the TV, bypassing the amplifier's HDMI switching. The last thing that I can explore is whether the scaler in another amplifier here will produce video without these annoying plainbow flashes.

Rainbows have been used to describe many gremlins. Unfortunatelly the term is so overused that it no longer means much. In plasmas it is used to describe the effect caused by differernt decay times of the phosphors. Whatever you are seeing is not that. The fact that it occurs only on certain signals eliminates phosphor decay as your problem.
Not sure what you mean when you say; "When I switched from DVI/HDMI to Component Video, the color range seemed to improve dramatically, and I couldn't see any plainbows."

HDMI/DVI are the purest connections you can use, so I am at a loss as to why when you switched to component "the color range" improved dramatically.

Can you be more specific defining "color range"?

The fact you did not see this effect at the store with the same set tells me something else on your hook up is the cause of this problem. It could also be a defective HDMI port on the set, I suppose.

What is this, a holocaust denier's convention?...

You're a funny guy, Chris. Really. :D

I don't think I can enjoy viewing with plainbows like this. Do you mean to say that all Plasmas will have this problem? I will exchange it if that is what is necessary.

Another model wont help. Or going from component etc. Remember you see this on black and white material. A different brand could be less prone to the effect, but if you read this thread both pannys, pios, vizios, etc have the problem.

I went to the store and could not see Plainbows on any of their Plasmas (even the same model I have), in any of their light or dark viewing rooms. One difference is that they were using a satellite video feed for their in store demo video.

Same with me, i never see the plainbows in stores even with pretty dark environment. Same with dlp, never in stores, and i question those that say they see it in stores with any amount of light.


Could there be a problem coming from the DVD Player, Cable Box, or AV Receiver?
NO!

When I switched from DVI/HDMI to Component Video, the color range seemed to improve dramatically, and I couldn't see any plainbows. There is no scaling going on in this case either, so I can't blame the upsampling features.

Again, black and white proves color and connections is not the problem. I think, just a guess, is how plasma lights up. You should be able to see the effect with just a snow image, nothing hooked up to it.


I still don't see any plainbows when viewing video from a PC on the Plasma. This makes me wonder if the cause of this effect is 24 or 30 fps video. The 60hz VGA output looks better, but I can't get a Cablecard in my PC, AFAIK.

Interesting.

I'm going to switch the cable box to component video and see if that makes any difference. After that, I will try running video sources directly to the TV, bypassing the amplifier's HDMI switching. The last thing that I can explore is whether the scaler in another amplifier here will produce video without these annoying plainbow flashes.

I hate to say it, it should not make a difference.

Greetings,

Recently purchased a 60inch Pioneer Purevision Plasma, and I'm seeing this plasma rainbow effect too (Plainbow). Here is my experience...

- Areas of bright white adjacent to dark colors sometimes produce perceived flashes of yellow and blue.

- This most commonly occurs after a cut, when the eye changes direction from one actor or object to another, from one area of the screen to another

- Looking around the screen will cause this effect, while it is generally not visible if the eye is focussed in one place

- Black and white video makes it easy to see this phenomena

- I do wear glasses, but can see the effect with our without them

- I have seen the effect on DVDs and TV

I have not found any way to reduce or remove this effect, which I find very distracting.



John

I just purchased a Panasonic 50in plasma and experience the same thing. Using comcast cable and DVD's via component. My wife thinks I'm crazy.

I have the th-42ph9uk and I am defiantly seeing yellow flashes. I can't look directly at them there always toward the side of the screen in my peripheral vision. I notice it quite a bit playing Gears of War. Occationaly I see it on TV broadcasts and movies but not enough to cause concern.

I also see this effect.

Anybody want to buy a PDP-5070 with less than 100 hours on it? *sigh*

turn on 3:3 pulldown on the pioneers and you will hardly see it.Doesn't work for me.

FWIW, I saw the yellow flashes on the 50" 700U over the weekend at Tweeter.

I am highly sensitive to temporal artifacts though - rainbows drive me nuts on DLPs.


I have seen green flashes on older Pioneer Elites.

I can join this group now. I see yellow trails on my Samsung 5054. I'm very upset about this as I got this plasma to escape DLP rainbows. Is there any way to get around this yet?

Ugh, I just checked this thread out for the first time in over a year. This was the reason I didn't buy a plasma over 2 years ago, cause I too noticed this yellow flashing immediately. I was hoping by now it would be resolved.

Is there any reason to think that 1080p Plasma would be different? Maybe the extra pixels are controlled or fired differently? Or maybe the Samsungs with the higher glare filters get rid of some of the flash? Some people wrote that they see it less on the Samsung. (I only have the lesser filter version)

Plasma is far away the best looking panel on the market... There has GOT to be some way we can conquer this and enjoy them. People may laugh, but the yellow flashes are REAL to some of us.

Id also be interested to know if the 1080p sets get rid of the trails. Maybe because their are double the pixels the trails and flashes will be less noticable. Im hoping the new Pioneer 8g don't have this problem at all.

Greetings,

Recently purchased a 60inch Pioneer Purevision Plasma, and I'm seeing this plasma rainbow effect too (Plainbow). Here is my experience...

- Areas of bright white adjacent to dark colors sometimes produce perceived flashes of yellow and blue.

- This most commonly occurs after a cut, when the eye changes direction from one actor or object to another, from one area of the screen to another

- Looking around the screen will cause this effect, while it is generally not visible if the eye is focussed in one place

- Black and white video makes it easy to see this phenomena

- I do wear glasses, but can see the effect with our without them

- I have seen the effect on DVDs and TV

I have not found any way to reduce or remove this effect, which I find very distracting.

In considering ways to resolve this, I am interested in the following:

- Could there be any difference in these artifacts when using progressive vs. interlaced video modes.?

- Will higher refresh rate features such as 3:3 pullup/72hz, or upcoming 120hz refresh reduce this problem?

- Does resolution scaling from an upconverting DVD, cable box, or even AV Receiver play any role in this problem?

I would appreciate any suggestions,

John

I also see something similar to this poster on a Pioneer Pro-FHD1, and on all plasmas that I have seen, to some degree.

Can someone post a link to how Plasmas create their intensities? When they display an intensity, does the current in the gas just go up and down to match, or do they quickly turn the plasma off and on in pulses to get the various intensities?

On the Pioneer, I could see sparkles in pure almost-white scenes if I moved my eyes. It was like dancing fireflies in regions as my eye moved. I could also see definite static dithering, as well as dynamic flashes in the dark grays. Its like plasma can't really display anything other than on or off, and they just dither the pattern and the intensity versus time to give us the different colors and intensities.

This is not a problem for me at normal viewing distance. However, when close up, it would be a killer. I think we could understand this phenomena better if a Plasma expert could explain how the cells work.

Can someone post a link to how Plasmas create their intensities? When they display an intensity, does the current in the gas just go up and down to match, or do they quickly turn the plasma off and on in pulses to get the various intensities?Plasma displays create grayscale by using a special kind of PWM (pulse-width-modulation). Unlike regular PWM plasma displays have a set number of pulses with binary widths (0,1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128..etc). To get all possible luminence levels these binary pulses are chosen in combination accordingly.

For example to get a grayscale step of 51 they would activate pulse 0,1,2,16,32 in that order. But unlike regular PWM the pulses remain time separated. For example:

sub-pixel #1: grayscale of 51 the pixel would do the following:

0 , 1 , 2 , off , off , 16 , 32 , off , off
-------------------------------------> time (16.7ms)

sub-pixel #2: grayscale of 128 the pixel would do the following

0 , off , off , off , off , off , off , off , 128
-------------------------------------> time (16.7ms)


This time seperated pulse modulation causes many motion artifacts and some color seperation as you can see in the above example. Pixel #1 is on while pixel #2 is not and visa versa.

However, I've seen some data that suggests that this is not the cause of the plasma rainbow phenomenon. Rather it is the phosphor decay differences, with green and red phosphors lasting longer than blue.

Cheers

However, I've seen some data that suggests that this is not the cause of the plasma rainbow phenomenon. Rather it is the phosphor decay differences, with green and red phosphors lasting longer than blue.

That's my problem: Yellow streaks. I've noticed by having energy save mode on and slightly blue whites I can lessen the effect. That's of course at the cost of picture quality to a degree. If I put on sunglasses they also seem to filter the yellows a tad making me think that the Samsung with the Ultra glare filter would also help some.

I wonder if there's any reason to belive that 1080p screens would have faster phosphor decay than 768p?

However, I've seen some data that suggests that this is not the cause of the plasma rainbow phenomenon. Rather it is the phosphor decay differences, with green and red phosphors lasting longer than blue.

This makes the most sense as an explanation for me, as I can see a similar effect with some CRT RPTV's.

Hi,

I'm wondering if anyone out there who experiences this problem has had their plasmas professionally calibrated and if it helped. I had a Runco plasma for a while that showed this problem something awful, but I believe it lessened substantially after I had it calibrated. I don't have the TV anymore so I can't be sure of how much of difference it made, but I recall thinking it almost seemed unnoticeable. Has anyone experienced a post calibration improvement in this phenomenon?

Who sits in front of their TV during normal TV watching times and waves their hand in front of their eyes. Just my opinion but if you don't go looking for problems the problems in most cases will go away. If you try to find the rainbow or "plainbow" effect in everything you see, then 9 out of 10 times your gonna find it. I install and watch all the sets mentioned in this thread everyday and the only time I've seen this is in the DLP when I look back and forth at the picture rapidly. Not doubting any one but it kind of baffles me. Have you ever thought about how you have your service set up. If 1080I maybe your seeing the ladder effect from the refresh rate vs. a rainbow. This has been a very informative thread and hopefully someone can shed some light on this for us!!!!
Just my $.02

Well, I gotta say. Now that I have had my plasma for about a month I can no longer see rainbows. I don't know if its because ive gotten used to it or if maybe the phosphor has settled down.

I could see them quite often when I first got it. Mainly while playing games. But its been a while since ive seen them.

Perhaps this is just an affect of new plasma's with fresh phosphor. Could disappear once the TV is broke in.

Just my two cents.

Well, I gotta say. Now that I have had my plasma for about a month I can no longer see rainbows. I don't know if its because ive gotten used to it or if maybe the phosphor has settled down.

I could see them quite often when I first got it. Mainly while playing games. But its been a while since ive seen them.

Perhaps this is just an affect of new plasma's with fresh phosphor. Could disappear once the TV is broke in.

Just my two cents.
Oddly enough, I've made the same observation.

If you look at the history of this thread about 10 or 11 months ago, you'll see some rainbow comments from me. Now I never see them on color material and very, very rarely on B&W material.

BTW, I am very happy with my 42" Vizio...

Regards,
Scott

Id also be interested to know if the 1080p sets get rid of the trails. Maybe because their are double the pixels the trails and flashes will be less noticable. Im hoping the new Pioneer 8g don't have this problem at all.

FYI, I see the yellow trails something fierce on the new 700u series 1080p plasmas.

After reading the entire thread I feel I need to add additional info.

I got a new Panasonic 50" 700u 1080p plasma and was completely thrilled with the look. I did some gaming, stuff like Ridge Racer 7 and it was amazing. The other day I popped Gears of War for 360 in, and the whole screen was filled with yellow blurs when I moved around in the game. I hadn't heard of this type thing with plasmas, and I've never seen DLP rainbows or any similar artifact with my Pioneer Elite RPCRT.

THEN I did some google searches that led me to this thread.

Now that the new 8th gen Pio's are out with a different cell structure, have any of you with the yellow streak issue checked them out to see if the new electrode and lower charge changes the artifact?

I suffer from this and would love to know more. The Pio is different than all other plasmas right now, so it might be better for us... (or worse)

FYI, I see the yellow trails something fierce on the new 700u series 1080p plasmas.

After reading the entire thread I feel I need to add additional info.

I got a new Panasonic 50" 700u 1080p plasma and was completely thrilled with the look. I did some gaming, stuff like Ridge Racer 7 and it was amazing. The other day I popped Gears of War for 360 in, and the whole screen was filled with yellow blurs when I moved around in the game. I hadn't heard of this type thing with plasmas, and I've never seen DLP rainbows or any similar artifact with my Pioneer Elite RPCRT.

THEN I did some google searches that led me to this thread.

Apparently not everyone sees the yellow streaks/rainbows on plasmas.

Then there are plasma fanboys who see them, but deny.

These artifacts originate because different response times and latency of the RGB phosphors used in plasma.

They are chemically different phosphors than those used in CRT, and their response times may be less in synch with each other than the CRT phosphors.

Apparently not everyone sees the yellow streaks/rainbows on plasmas.


They can't be that difficult to spot, my wife can even see them without difficulty. I popped in Sin City and it was a mess. I should note that she can't even readily tell the difference between a regular DVD and HDTV.

The funniest part, I went to return the TV to BB over the weekend and the salesperson not only knew of the issue, he was explaining it to his coworkers. I was floored to find someone at a common retail outlet that was familiar with this.

I was sad returning the 700u because it's otherwise so stunning. Between the dozen dead pixels and the green trails it wasn't a keeper though.

Apparently not everyone sees the yellow streaks/rainbows on plasmas.

Then there are plasma fanboys who see them, but deny.




lol, interesting choice of wording, "apparently not everyone". The fact of the matter is that only a distinct minority of people are afflicted by this phenomenom. Enough to justify a dedicated thread perhaps, but insignificant in the grand scheme of things. For example, whenever I read through the sticky 'you've just bought a plasma, tell us about it' thread, very very rarely have I encountered anyone complaining about this.

Now if there actually exists people who do "see them, but deny", the most logical explanation for that would be that the picture quality pros outweigh the cons by a significant enough margin, or, the trailing simply isn't all that bothersome to them, to the point of necessitating they make a panel change because of it (assuming they already own one).

Your theory that some choose to see but deny due to a kind of fanboy allegiance is a much less plausible conclusion to draw. If it's a real irritant to their viewing experience, and yet choose to defend regardless because they've apparently developed some bizarre anthropomorphic relationship with their plasma or the plasma category in general, well, that would be very strange indeed. But not very likely, at least, not anywhere as likely as the first scenario I've described above. I just don't think you are capable of being dispassionately neutral on this subject. In fact, whenever I encounter one of your posts anywhere on the forum, my first thought is always "oh, here is 'plasma-trails-cranky-guy'.

Look, I understand how much of a bummer it would be to find oneself amongst those unexpectedly afflicted by this green/yellow-trailing or lagging problem, especially if you've laid money down and now your left with a financial loss or return hassle to deal with. But lashing out at others for not "admitting the truth!" isn't the most reasonable way of responding to the situation.

They can't be that difficult to spot, my wife can even see them without difficulty. I popped in Sin City and it was a mess. I should note that she can't even readily tell the difference between a regular DVD and HDTV.



Few people complain about it, so it must be difficult to see for most. Just because you and your wife just so happen to see it doesn't support a conclusion that it should be a common viewable occurence for many. Your situation is just a slightly odd luck of the draw, no more significant than a coin toss where "heads" come up 6 times in a row when a result of "3 heads, 3 tails", "4 heads, 2 tails" or even "5 heads, 1 tail", would seem more likely. It happens. I wouldn't attach too much significance to it.

Any streak sensitive users checked the new Pioneer Kuro 5080's yet? I'm really eager to know how they do with phosphor decay rates...

I can report on the 4280 on Wednesday...maybe Thursday, when mine gets delivered.
I can see them fairly easily...but it doesn't destroy my viewing like DLP color separation.

thanks vigga. The easiest test I found was using http://www.tvblink.com/i_down.html just download this small file burn it and run the tests with the scrolling white bar against black backdrop. There is a test for horizontal and vertical panning. Ive tried this test on most current plasma and they all had green or yellow streaking.

Your theory that some choose to see but deny due to a kind of fanboy allegiance is a much less plausible conclusion to draw. If it's a real irritant to their viewing experience, and yet choose to defend regardless because they've apparently developed some bizarre anthropomorphic relationship with their plasma or the plasma category in general, well, that would be very strange indeed. But not very likely, at least, not anywhere as likely as the first scenario I've described above. I just don't think you are capable of being dispassionately neutral on this subject. In fact, whenever I encounter one of your posts anywhere on the forum, my first thought is always "oh, here is 'plasma-trails-cranky-guy'.


Perhaps a shill, not a fanboy is a better choice of words.

Regarding the green phosphor lag - there are US Patents from Thomson describing this phenomenon and how to alleviate it.

It is really quite simple - the green phosphor decays slower than the other two.

You can see the greenish/yellow trails in certain motion scenes.

Admittedly, a very high percentage of plasma owners are *not* critical viewers, so they don't notice them.

God bless'em.

I can report on the 4280 on Wednesday...maybe Thursday, when mine gets delivered.
I can see them fairly easily...but it doesn't destroy my viewing like DLP color separation.

God bless ya. I can't wait to hear your results!

I can report on the 4280 on Wednesday...maybe Thursday, when mine gets delivered.
I can see them fairly easily...but it doesn't destroy my viewing like DLP color separation.

Can you report anything on this yet? I hope you're enjoying the new HDTV!

Hi, iv got a panasonic 42"px60. Im having a real problem with the rainbow, trailing effect.
On certain programs it is very bad with a yellow/green effect followig movement on certain areas. Even on programs were it isnt as bad, if i start moving my eyes left and right i see it.
Now i have read most of the comments on here, so i guess my question is...

.....is this definatly just down to my own eyes reacting with the plasma. The reason i say this is i have had the tv for 3 weeks and i am certain i didn't see this for the first week. It is so noticeable and annoying i couldn't of missed it surely.

The only thing i can think of is, did my eyes get worse?
Or has the tv got worse?

Had a quick look in curry's today at the tv's and couldn't see any traces of green/rainbow effect.
Dont really know what to do, any ideas?

Cheers for the help people. Sometimes you are so excited about something you won't see it until couple days to weeks later. THis is normal and nothing to be ashamed of. of cource, there could be a problem.

I had to return my pany 60 for the exact same reason. I went to the shop with a DVD i made to check if the problem was the same on all the plasmas and the answer is yes. They all have green/yellow trailing issue, some can't see it but if you do, other brands is just the same. And of course moving from bright to dark spot could also bring yellow flashes.

I just brought back my old CRT from the celar. LCDs suffer too much from banding, clouding, and all other crap. Having a good set is just plain lotery. I won't considering them until they opt for backlight led, which won't happen before 2008.

Waiting is bliss... crt have 58 years of experience compared to 8 for plasmas. of course plasmas have glitches.

Have you considered getting your eyes checked? Abnormal Color Vision can be caused by a number of difference conditions including Macular Edema, Corneal Edema, and Central serous Chorioretinopathy. The conditions are often highlighted by strobing lights or high contrast motion.

Have you considered getting your eyes checked? Abnormal Color Vision can be caused by a number of difference conditions including Macular Edema, Corneal Edema, and Central serous Chorioretinopathy. The conditions are often highlighted by strobing lights or high contrast motion.

I have this issue... my wife sees it too, my friend can see it... I can photograph it. I can videotape it... The Gears of War photos on the web i've seen look exactly like it.

Dunno about you , but I'm thinking it's real.

TO SORKA and ALL OTHER PEOPLE WHO CONTINUE TO QUESTION THIS PROBLEM. If you have a plasma download the small file i posted a few posts up. There is a test with a scrolling white bar over a black background. YOU WILL SEE the trailing guranteed. This is not some eye defect and it's not really that hard to see. Some people like myself and wojtek can see it easily. If anything I think people with above average vision would pick it up faster. (I have 20/10 vision which is very good) BTW, this effect is much more noticable with video games. With regular programing I don't find it to be much of a problem. But, for gamers like me it's very annoying.

Anyway run the test on a plasma before you open your mouth about this being due eye defects or as some people in this thread have hinted at, brain defects. If you don't see the green/yellow/blue trails following of predceding the white bar then I'll buy you a case of beer.

When are we gonna get some 8g reports? Hoping to GOD that the 8g somehow does not suffer from the trails or Ill be waiting for LED LCD.

I have this issue... my wife sees it too, my friend can see it... I can photograph it. I can videotape it... The Gears of War photos on the web i've seen look exactly like it.

Dunno about you , but I'm thinking it's real.It is definitely real, no question. But I don't see it at all. And I know why.

The fact that everyone can see it on that youtube video should give a clue as to why when looking at a plasma screen "MOST" don't see it and some do.

Wether you see it or not has nothing to do with how sharp your vision is but rather how fast your retina is. Not everyone has the same eye persistance and the people with long persistance will be more susceptible to motion artifacts and color seperation artifacts.

And as for the camera being able to capture it? Film or CCD cameras have long persistance times as the CCD or film collects information over the entire frame capture time period. If you are taking a video of a plasma and the plasma frame display rate is not in sync with the cameras CCD capture rate it will capture shadows and trails where objects have moved. And in the case of plasma those shadows and trails will be colored as the phosphor decay times are different.

Think about it: if the camera shutter is open when the plasma display changes frames, the cameras CCD will capture a moving object at two locations and produce color artifacts as the individual RGB decay times are different.

TO SORKA and ALL OTHER PEOPLE WHO CONTINUE TO QUESTION THIS PROBLEM. If you have a plasma download the small file i posted a few posts up. There is a test with a scrolling white bar over a black background. YOU WILL SEE the trailing guranteed. This is not some eye defect and it's not really that hard to see. Some people like myself and wojtek can see it easily. If anything I think people with above average vision would pick it up faster. (I have 20/10 vision which is very good) BTW, this effect is much more noticable with video games. With regular programing I don't find it to be much of a problem. But, for gamers like me it's very annoying.

Anyway run the test on a plasma before you open your mouth about this being due eye defects or as some people in this thread have hinted at, brain defects. If you don't see the green/yellow/blue trails following of predceding the white bar then I'll buy you a case of beer.

When are we gonna get some 8g reports? Hoping to GOD that the 8g somehow does not suffer from the trails or Ill be waiting for LED LCD.



Touchy are we?

Seriously, a video or photo is going to show what you're observing because you're likely using a capture device that has a ccd. Although they've gotten better over the years, they're not as good as most human eyes. Some people have cones that take a while to discharge. If you're one of these people, then it just means that you're retina is slow to to respond and you'll see what you're describing. It has nothing to do with sharpness. My corrected vision is 20/15.

Wow. People are slow around here. I said you should download the test dvd and run it on your plasma. The test with the white scrolling line against the black background DOES NOT have any trails in the source. If you run the test on a CRT or LCD their IS NO colour trailing before or after the white scrolling bar. There is only trailing on the plasma. So this is not some effect captured by some video camera. This is the plasma giving you trails in real time. Try running the test and then we can talk. Does this make sense to you, or do I have to explain in more detail. Do you know what a test/calibration dvd is?

Touchy are we?

Seriously, a video or photo is going to show what you're observing because you're likely using a capture device that has a ccd. Although they've gotten better over the years, they're not as good as most human eyes. Some people have cones that take a while to discharge. If you're one of these people, then it just means that you're retina is slow to to respond and you'll see what you're describing. It has nothing to do with sharpness. My corrected vision is 20/15.

So your theory is that my eyes respond slowly, but only to the green phosphor? But my eyes work fine for the red and blue?

If my eyes perceive no green trail issue with my Pioneer RPTV using the same source for a test, how is that explained? Why would my cones discharge fine when viewing CRT phosphor but not plasma phosphor?

Cones have peak color sensitivities at 440nm (blue), 545nm (yellow-green), and 580nm (orange). The discharge rate is slower at these peak values. If your cones are slow to discharge in general, you'll probably notice this most in the yellow-green range.

I can't tell you why you don't see it on a CRT display. I could go on and theorize about possible reasons but I'm not an expert so I'd be guessing at this point. My main point is that just because you don't see it on a CRT doesn't necessarily mean the effect is real on the plasma. The differences just may make it easier for your eye to see it on plasma if you have an Abnormal Color Vision disease.

Wow. People are indeed slow around here. I don't think anyone is making an argument against plasmas manifesting this "trailing" phenomenom. Nobody, in the last page or two at least, is even addressing that question (edit: well, maybe sorka is in his post just above mine).

What we are mainly addressing is the notion that everyone or even a substantial number of viewers will experience it. The evidence seems pretty clear on THIS question. It's either not noticable at all to most people, or if they do see it, it's not bothersome to them. At least not to reach the point where they begin obsessing over it or the problem becomes so troublesome to the extent that they can no longer enjoy their picture. A minority of people are this latter camp, congregating in this thread, for example. For those of you in this boat, yes, I can absolutely appreciate why you would be frustrated and wishing for a plasma that could somehow resolve or compensate for it.

What I don't get is why some of you feel that you must convince the non-trail-seeing majority that they damn well should be seeing what you are seeing! It's almost as if you wouldn't feel so alone or something, if only you could recruit more people to your optical circumstance. Not unlike those who can see and be highly irritated by the color wheel on DLP panels, the only thing you can do at this point is to choose another panel technology or hope for a future adaptation to the current plasma manuf. model.

Or, as sorka has suggested, perhaps a visual condition may be effecting your specific reason for being more susceptable to see the lagging/trailing. I don't think he necessarily meant to say that EVERYONE who sees them must have some visual deformity which needs correctly. For a select few of you, a solution MIGHT be found by investigating along this path (sorka please correct me if I'm misreading your intent).

Perhaps the new 8th gen Pioneer models will somehow correct for this, given their sophisticated new "adaptive motion" compensation. My sense is that this new feature of theirs won't address this particular issue, unfortunately. Time will tell, as the new Pios begin showing up in retailers near you, so you can test them out for yourselves.

People keep talking about phoshphor lag, trails, news flash-these are not crt's.

Dlp= flashing rainbow effect in dark scenes. Even all black screen.

Plasma=no rainbow effect in dark scenes, wont show the effect on a all black screen, but shows flashes with bright scenes especially with alot of white in them. It's a constant color flashing type effect, no 'trailing'.

Nicely stated CruelInventions.

The color wheel single DLP solutions do annoy me. I see rainbows unless I hold me eyes absolutely still, don't move, and stay focused on one point.

People keep talking about phoshphor lag, trails, news flash-these are not crt's.

Dlp= flashing rainbow effect in dark scenes. Even all black screen.

Plasma=no rainbow effect in dark scenes, wont show the effect on a all black screen, but shows flashes with bright scenes especially with alot of white in them. It's a constant color flashing type effect, no 'trailing'.

The issue that I'm talking about is a trailing effect, greenish trails on bright moving objects on a dark background. I see greenish comet trails.

And to the last couple posts, I think the issue was the notion that if you see these artifacts then maybe you have some type of eye disorder. My point was simply that if all 3 people who viewed my display could easily detect the artifact, then it was unlikely that all 3 had some eye disorder that effects 6% of the population. It's much more likely that it's just how that display renders that content.

I personally think that many people are afraid to game on plasmas, and that's where I see it the most. In fact, though I can see it on content like Sin City... I might not have noticed it had it not jumped out at me playing Gears of War.

I certainly don't expect for everyone to see the artifact, and heck I'm glad they don't. I'm just hoping the new Pioneers took care of this because I think plasma is the best technology overall. So... someone with a new Pioneer run that disk please...

brentsg, how close do you sit when you game? I think for sure you are seeing a different effect then what the OP and i see, but maybe not.

Another thing too brent, are you gaming in HD? My 360 had all kinds of trailing color artifacts when not in HD mode. And that was on a lcd.

The artifact I'm describing is caused by the green phosphor staying lit just a bit longer than the other colors during motion. Areas of high brightness on a dark scene leave green trails. Obviously the faster the motion, the greater the degree of trail. Basically the green phosphor isn't going dark quite as quickly as the others.

I'm sitting at around 7' or so with a 50" 1080p plasma in a subdued ambient light setting. The panel is being fed 1080p via HDMI by a PS3 and an Xbox 360.

The picture from Sin City that someone created to try depicting the artifact (page 10 or so) is pretty much what I see.

The artifact I'm describing is caused by the green phosphor staying lit just a bit longer than the other colors during motion. Areas of high brightness on a dark scene leave green trails. Obviously the faster the motion, the greater the degree of trail. Basically the green phosphor isn't going dark quite as quickly as the others.

I'm sitting at around 7' or so with a 50" 1080p plasma in a subdued ambient light setting. The panel is being fed 1080p via HDMI by a PS3 and an Xbox 360.

The picture from Sin City that someone created to try depicting the artifact (page 10 or so) is pretty much what I see.I don't think this is in dispute. I posted concrete evidence a few pages back that plasma manufacturers know this exists and are researching solutions to this.

The problem is that the people who see it (not me) think that everyone should see it and if they don't then they are just not looking for it. This is complete bull#@$@!!

The reason most people cannot see this phosphor lag is simple and I explained it a few post back. Everybody has different physical response to light over time. The differences are minute (probably 1-2 milliseconds) but this makes all the difference when the green phosphor takes 1-2 extra milliseconds to go dark.

I will agree that this problem is most bothersome for gaming. Watching everyday content it's not as big of a problem. However, it's not an eye thing. I implore anyone that downloads the TVblink test disc and runs the scrolling white bar over black background will see EXACTLY what I and many others have been talking about. I work at Costco south Mississauga and I brought in the test disc and EVERYONE I showed it too including employees and members saw the trails. EVERYONE. Not one person did not see it. It's not some problem that only some people will see. Everyone will see it once someone points it out to them. Im wondering why some people cannot download a 200meg file to test it out. I would caution those that do. Once you see the trails you will always look for them. Anyway, this thread is becoming annoying to me and many others. Im just wondering if the new Pio 8g have this problem and if they do then I'll be waiting for LED LCD local dimming sets to become available.

brentsg. I sit about seven feet from my Panny 60u. The closer you sit the more noticalbe the problem is. If anyone lives near Toronto in the GTA area and wants to come by my workplace I will run the test disc for u and you will see the green/yellow trails. It just pisses me of that people say that only a small percentage of people CAN see the trails. Everyone can see them. It's just not a huge deal for some people as it is for others. I dare anyone to download the TVblink test DVD and run the white bar against black background and not see the trails. I have never met anyone that hasn't seen the trails after running the test, and I have shown the test to at least 50 people.

All I want is that this thread stick to the topic. I want info on any current or upcoming plasma that does not have trails to be known. The rest of you can bugger off.

I've been talking to Vigga via PM and he's going to test for streaking on a Pioneer 4280. He posted a page back that he sees them easy so hopefully he can help us to see if 8th gen Pio is immune or not. In the next couple of days he'll let us know.

thanks cynn. What are you gonna do if the 8g have the same issue?

thanks cynn. What are you gonna do if the 8g have the same issue?

Well the 8g's are about the only hope we have. They are the only plasmas with different cell structures. I guess I'll be forced to go led dlp and hope rainbows are lesser. The only LCD I'd like is the Samsung 81 and it will be expensive. Here's Vigga's reply:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am very sensitive to color separation of any type. I can't watch DLP at all except for the highest end single chip units (the DPI is borderline as are the Sim2's)-and even then it's really a challenge.

I could see separation on my Vizio 42HD easily, but it wasn't nearly as distracting or nausea inducing as on DLP's - which isn't surprising - it's a totally different phenomena. I lived with the Vizio for about a year and it certainly didn't kill me.

Last night with the 4280 was fine. I tried to see streaking on black text and while I could produce it by trying, it was certainly less noticeable than on the Vizio. I'm unfortunately not a gamer so I can't comment on that.
It's unfortunate that these units aren't in stores yet so you can't see for yourself-

I'm happy to message again when I get a couple of more hours on the unit. Let me know.

Looks like it may have much less of the streaking, but still has it. I guess we'll all just have to test ourselves to see if we can live with however much remains.

I will agree that this problem is most bothersome for gaming. Watching everyday content it's not as big of a problem. However, it's not an eye thing. I implore anyone that downloads the TVblink test disc and runs the scrolling white bar over black background will see EXACTLY what I and many others have been talking about. I work at Costco south Mississauga and I brought in the test disc and EVERYONE I showed it too including employees and members saw the trails. EVERYONE. Not one person did not see it. It's not some problem that only some people will see. Everyone will see it once someone points it out to them. Im wondering why some people cannot download a 200meg file to test it out. I would caution those that do. Once you see the trails you will always look for them. Anyway, this thread is becoming annoying to me and many others. Im just wondering if the new Pio 8g have this problem and if they do then I'll be waiting for LED LCD local dimming sets to become available.Of course it is not an eye thing. Your eyes do not cause the artifact. The artifact is always there but it is your eyes that determine how sensitive you are to seeing it. If you do not believe the science then you need to learn it before you start stating that everyone should see it. Your test proves only that under severe conditions it will become so obvious that people with low sensitivity to this artifact may see it. I cannot do the test as I have gotten rid of my plasmas to make way for a new 60" 8G Pioneer. And I'll let you guys down now. The 8G pioneer will have the same problem because pioneer has not changed the phosphor speeds which is what causes the problem.

In fact every single temporal artifact (display over time):

Motion blurring on LCD
Ghosting on LCD
DLP rainbows
Phosphor lag on Plasma
Dynamic False Contour
CRT flicker

are all percieved by the eye due to retinal persistence. And the degree to which we percieve these artifacts are variable from person to person due to the variability in retinal persistence. No one should dispute that they exist because the science tells us they do. But there is great variability in individual persons sensitivity to these artifacts. Look at motion blurring in LCDs. Of course it exists but not everyone sees it right?

Here are some patents and articles on the subject:
link1 (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7042422.html)

link 2 (http://www.brl.ntt.co.jp/people/nishida/Presentation/ECVP2002/ECVPslide1.ppt#1)

link 3 (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20030210354.html)

CRT flicker only applies to interlaced CRTs, not PC monitors running in progressive-scan mode (at 85 Hz. and above).

Phosphor lag occurs on CRTs as well as plasma, though it may be less visible due to different phosphor formulation.

CRT flicker only applies to interlaced CRTs, not PC monitors running in progressive-scan mode (at 85 Hz. and above).

Phosphor lag occurs on CRTs as well as plasma, though it may be less visible due to different phosphor formulation.

CRT flicker applies to all CRT raster scan devices. They are impulse displays. Progressive scan and >85Hz push this artifact past most persons sensitivity threshold to it. The point I was making is that we all have variable sensitivity to temporal artifacts.

Indeed, you are correct. There is, however, one technology which won't have any of the disadvantages you listed: OLED (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7714953#post7714953).

I suppose this rainbow effect is possible. I can see the color wheel rainbows on DLP's but have never experienced this.

It probably has something to do with the discharge rate of the individual red/green/blue pixels on the panel.

Indeed, you are correct. There is, however, one technology which won't have any of the disadvantages you listed: OLED (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7714953#post7714953).

Yeah..... right..... the disadvantage is that its not available and just like SED it will prolly never actually exist except in the minds of the foolish "cling-ons" that still believe SED is going somewhere. :rolleyes:

I have beachfront property in Kansas to sell ya'll when you're ready..... :D

Unlike SED, OLED is in the market now and mass-production by many companies is slated to begin shortly. There is no doubt in the minds of market analysts that OLED will indeed scale to TV sizes within the next decade or two.

After reading through this thread a few weeks back, I have noticed the rainbow issue on my Pioneer 4280. To describe it simply, rainbow-like effects happen during high contrast scenes with whites on dark scenes. I originally owned a 4271, but I did not notice the problem. I have to agree that once your eyes spot it, your eyes will "look" for it. Unfortunately for me, it is too late.

After reading through this thread a few weeks back, I have noticed the rainbow issue on my Pioneer 4280. To describe it simply, rainbow-like effects happen during high contrast scenes with whites on dark scenes. I originally owned a 4271, but I did not notice the problem. I have to agree that once your eyes spot it, your eyes will "look" for it. Unfortunately for me, it is too late.

Wow, that sucks. I've been waiting for "the perfect TV" for years now (want to replace my CRT), and I thought the 8G Pioneers were the answer, but if they have this bug I guess the waiting continues.
Argh, how hard can it be to produce something that provides as good (or better) picture as CRT, a technology that has it roots more than 100 years ago???

Im leaving Plasma tech for good. My only hope was the 8g and now thats finished. I was just recently thinking that the trails wernt that bad and yesterday I bought The Darkness (PS3, AMAZING GAME) and remembered whey I hate my plasma. The game is very contrasty and the trails ruined the experience on the plasma. However, I do have a Sony Pearl SXRD front projo and playing that game on a 110" 1080p screen is heaven. (rather not game on it because the lamps are expensive, but couldn't resist)

Also, Samsung is supposed to have an LED Local Dimming LCD come out sometime this year. 500 000:1 contrast! and no motion issues!. We can also look forward to OLED sometime in the next 3-4 years. (hopefully) People who have seen the new Sony 120hz sets have said it does wonders for motion. So, while I give plasma a farewell, all is not lost. There should be something soon (please Samsung) that satisfies our needs. Gotta pack up the Panny, and return it to Costco within the next 3 months (gotta love Costco return policy)

Just a quick update. I brought the TV Blink test DVD to the store and ran it on the 5080. I ran the horizontal scrolling white bar against black background and the results were better then expected. I saw a VERY faint green tinge to the white bar, barely noticable. I ran the same test on my Panny 60u at home and it was much worse then the Pio. Some of you folks may want to give the Pio a chance. Im thinking of bringing my PS3 to the store and trying it out.

strange. Someone in one of the dedicated 5080/Pioneer Kuro threads stated that he saw no improvement with this model (can't remember who and in which specific thread). He had hoped the new Pio's would do the trick, but upon seeing them, he resigned himself to the fact that plasma was officially off-limits for him.

Maybe there is a particular setting which if deviated from, could account for the discrepancy of your accounts? There appears to be many things which can be tweaked and fiddled with on the new Pio's, and unless you know what all your settings are, it could make it difficult to compare notes.

Hope your PS3 testing proves your test DVD to be accurate. Good luck.

I haven't had a chance to watch enough TV yet, but I think this issue may actually be better on the 8G sets for me than on previous Pioneer models. My first thought is that it's not jumping out at me the way it did on previous models, but it is definitely still there. Right now I don't feel like I see it any more often than on my old ED Panasonic--and this is a brand new 1150 with only 1 day of use. On previous models I could see it 25 feet away and on almost all content. So far I'm not seeing it often and I haven't watched anything where it severely impacted viewing.

I'm optimistic that it's better than last year's models. I'll be interested to see what others think.

That's good news. I could probably learn to live with a little bit of this artifact, just not to the degree my Panasonic 700u did it.

Now someone play some Gears of War on a new Pioneer!

I recently purchased my first plasma, a Panasonic 50PH9UK and I think I'm seeing the effect being discussed here. It's most noticeable on high contrast scenes that pan at a moderate speed. To my eyes, it looks like the green is lagging behind just enough to give it a blurring effect. I have spoken with other Panny owners and most say they don't see this. Guess I'm one of the unlucky ones :(

Not played Gears of War yet on the Panny, but I will soon. I did notice the effect at times in the Halo 3 beta.

Welcome to the club. :o GOW is one of the worst offenders for green trailing. The game is very contrasty and I noticed throughout the entire game. Recently played the Darkness, and its was also very noticable. I can give some advice on how to minimize the effect. Lower the contrast. Effect is still there but the trail itself is not as long and kinda helps.

I have a Panasonic 42PE77U and I see the effect in Gears of War and Resistance Fall of Man also. The other games which I have don't seem to be affected by this. Can someone try these two games on a Pioneer or Samsung plasma?

That's good news. I could probably learn to live with a little bit of this artifact, just not to the degree my Panasonic 700u did it.

Now someone play some Gears of War on a new Pioneer!

I have played GOW on my 5080. I haven't noticed any of the streaking/trailing that has been mentioned and certainly nothing like what was in that video posted in this thread. I moved the controller back and forth to try to replicate posted the video and I didn't notice anything at all, no trails. It could be that my eyes aren't as sensitive to it, but nothing.

When watching movies that have very high and very low light scenes, occasionally I can notice a trace residual green/yellow halo/streak only if I turn my head from side to side quickly or move my eyeballs around quickly. Man, that sounds really odd now that I've typed it. I'm glad no one is watching me when I'm doing this.
Anyhow, if I focus on the bright area and don't move my head or eyes, the bright area itself does not cause this to occur, it's only when my head or eyes move quickly.

Let me add that I am still "breaking in" my 5080, and I'll report back post-break-in if this changes once I change the settings.

Junior, Try bumping up the contrast to about 75-80% of the maximum and then try the test. I found the worst case of trails at the begining of the game where you come out of prison. Just move the camera back and forth over the second floor in the prison.

JFYI, I actually found a professional review that talks about green trailing. Found this interesting as this was the first review that someone mentions trailing and rainbows as a problem for plasma. He even has a name for them "plainbow effect" http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PDP4270XD/Picture-Quality.php Just scroll down to video artifacts.

So I was in the Magnolia Room today looking at the new 8th gen panny elite models, and I noticed a rainbow effect? Maybe my retinal persistance is rediculous, but not only that, but I also noticed some yellow phosphor lag, though it was very brief it was distracting. It just felt like the image was not perfectly "stable"

Man I was really banking on the 1080p version of the 5080 for my home theater room. I don't really want a LCOS display unless there is absolutely no other way. I mean the picture on the plasma was fantastic except for that.

I also noticed that the yellow lag and rainbow effect varied greatly from TV to TV. I watched the 7th gen 60" model and there were no problems really.

Any ideas? Should I just pre-screen before I buy, or is there nothing I can do? Is there enough variance for me to be able to still use it, or is there anything in the pipeline under development that will solve this? Is it less prevalent on 1080p models?

One thing that I noticed last night, was that on my FW900 there was also a slight rainbow effect. I mean I have to move my eyes back and forth pretty damn quick (same as on the plasma) to notice it, and I don't when I normally use it.

On the Pro1150 I def noticed it with just regular old eye tracking. Help!

You're the first person to see anything like this on the 8g, so it's a non-issue for the vast majority of people.

You're the first person to see anything like this on the 8g, so it's a non-issue for the vast majority of people.

It's an issue for me Ken. Thanks for the useless response.

I'm certainly not the first person to notice this. Theres a guy on these forums that mentioned that (in the kuros thread I believe) and also, my mother who was sitting right next to me.

Ur telling me that phosphor lag is non existant on latest gen plasmas? Really...

I want to be able to buy this tv so badly, just wondering if this issue gets better over time after some use (when phosphour decay stabilizes), or if it varies from panel to panel. I've heard that it does.

And just to clarify, the "rainbow effect" is more like a splitting of colors when you move your eyes quickly. The only color that really splits though is yellow (though I can notice a bit of all 3 on the elite1150 I was watching if I move my eyes back and forth veyr quickly in scenese with lots of white; not nearly as much of an issue), which bothers me because I notice it with regular viewing. I have pretty crazy retinal persistance, but I want to be able to enjoy this great tv too!

Ehem, also Ken, how many people actually own an 8g? The "vast majority of people" really doesn't amount to very many does it?

edit 2: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=603995

Guess i'm not the only one. Read the 2nd to last page on that thread especially. This is similar to what I notice, and I put it out of torch mode using d-nice settings.

Brother, that was pretty harsh on Ken, given that Ken was only trying to express that owners have not expressed that this is a prominent problem with the 8G Pioneers.

I can say that I own the 5080, I notice this effect on most plasmas and I notice it far less on the 8G and then only when the contrast is up too high. Take the panel out of "Dynamic" mode and then see if you still notice it.

Further, at least for me, it has gotten better as I have broken in the panel.

There is a loooong thread on the rainbow effect and green phosphor lag (yellow trails) on plasma displays.

There is no reason to believe that Pio 8 gen will be any different, so RBE-sensitive folks (like myself) should not get their hopes up too much.

Ken Ross' nonsensical response to pakotlar's dilemma is a head scratcher. Unless he's just shilling plasmas in general, then it becomes perfectly understandable.

threads merged

Brother, that was pretty harsh on Ken, given that Ken was only trying to express that owners have not expressed that this is a prominent problem with the 8G Pioneers.

I can say that I own the 5080, I notice this effect on most plasmas and I notice it far less on the 8G and then only when the contrast is up too high. Take the panel out of "Dynamic" mode and then see if you still notice it.

Further, at least for me, it has gotten better as I have broken in the panel.

He came in my thread and told me its not an issue for anyone but me, effecitvely telling me "who cares", deal with it. That's pretty rude. If I had wanted that response I would have posted a thread called "Please berate me for dissing plasma displays".

I think you're reading a lot into his response, when all I read is that no one had reported the issue in any of the 8g threads, which is true. I am the only owner that has written anything about it, and it was not in any of the 8g threads. Might be better not to assume it's an ad hominem attack, IMO. It's just TV talk, after all.

What I find is that this effect generally is more dependent upon the person, not the technology. I've provided my personal experience, and my advice would be to go back to the store, take it out of torch mode, dial in more natural and watchable settings (especially in a viewing area with appropriate lighting) and see if you notice it as much.

I think you're reading a lot into his response, when all I read is that no one had reported the issue in any of the 8g threads, which is true. I am the only owner that has written anything about it, and it was not in any of the 8g threads. Might be better not to assume it's an ad hominem attack, IMO. It's just TV talk, after all.

What I find is that this effect generally is more dependent upon the person, not the technology. I've provided my personal experience, and my advice would be to go back to the store, take it out of torch mode, dial in more natural and watchable settings (especially in a viewing area with appropriate lighting) and see if you notice it as much.

Yeah, I could try to mess with the settings a bit. I did take it out of torch mode, but still saw it. Weird thing was, the 60" 7th gen elite right next to it didn't exhibit the problem to my eyes. Difference of inputs maybe? 7th gen was on blu-ray, 8th was on HD split feed.

BTW, one of the things that I noticed is the Kuro has an incredibly noise free picture. Whereas the LCD's had blocky artifacts (which is acceptable considering that the HD feed is split over like 30 tv's) the Kuro was perfectly smooth. Much better processing.

I own a 5080, and I only noticed this barely when the panel was brand new. I had my set isf calibrated and contrast is were it should be and I can honestly say I dont see it at all now, even on the first level of gears.

I like to bring this thread back to the top once in a while. :-)

So, the history first. I had a Panasonic 50" 700u plasma and when I played high contrast, fast moving content I saw the greenish-yellow trail behind bright objects as things moved. Sin City was the best DVD, and Gears of War was the best game to demonstrate this.

Yesterday I received a new Pioneer 5080 and I am happy to report that while the effect is still present it is MUCH less noticeable on this display. The Panasonic essentially looked just like the video that was linked earlier in this thread.

I'm told that this becomes less apparent as the display ages and it's already minor enough that I could see it disappearing over time.

Everyone's eyes are different so I'd still recommend that you audition for yourself but I'm happy to report that the new Pioneers seem to be pretty solid in this regard.

That is excellent news.

The phosphor trails and rainbows don't bother me as much as when I first got my Panasonic (I don't think the phosphor response changed over time; rather I got used to the artifact a bit), but I still see'em.

good to know that they are MUCH reduced with the Pio. Might give it another chance.

I'm also seeing this on a Kuro - 428XD. On the one hand I'm glad to know that I'm not alone, on the other hand I am really hoping this goes away with time - I've had my set less than a week.

I've never noticed it on a plasma before but this is the first one I've owned. Any helpful suggestions welcome!

I'm also seeing this on a Kuro - 428XD. On the one hand I'm glad to know that I'm not alone, on the other hand I am really hoping this goes away with time - I've had my set less than a week.

I've never noticed it on a plasma before but this is the first one I've owned. Any helpful suggestions welcome!

Just try not to sweat it. This is the best plasma I've seen in this regard.

I thought I'd resurrect this thread after a disconcetring experience yesterday viewing a 428XD in a store. It had an HD demo with some static white text on a (admittedly deep) black background. I observed yellow streaks when moving my eyes rapidly from side to side even though the picture was not changing. I didn't see this on the LCD's flanking it which were displaying the same picture.

How can the explanation of different phosphor decay times explain this effect?

I thought I'd resurrect this thread after a disconcetring experience yesterday viewing a 428XD in a store. It had an HD demo with some static white text on a (admittedly deep) black background. I observed yellow streaks when moving my eyes rapidly from side to side even though the picture was not changing. I didn't see this on the LCD's flanking it which were displaying the same picture.

How can the explanation of different phosphor decay times explain this effect?

Plasma pixels are always flickering, so it's probably the combination of the flickering with the eye moving quickly. I would guess as they decay with the flicker, the green is still decaying slower, so it's "smearing" on your retina.

Basically the same as when LCDs leave motion blur streaks as your eye tracks because the pixels are persistent, same deal but with the plasma green that's more persistent.

Somewhere around here there are some fast shutter speed plasma pics, so you could see what it's doing at a high speed.

Edit: Why is this bothersome? You won't be moving your eyes rapidly back and forth during viewing.

I have a Pio 5080 and notice a slight rainbow effect in scences with bright next to dark. I only notice it when I blink or move my eyes back and forth across the screen (normally, not rapidly). For DVD's (on a Sony upconverting player) I have it in Movie mode and have most settings at the mid level (brightness, contrast, color, etc). It cut down on the effect a bit, also over time it has lessened. It doesn't ruin the experience for me - it is a great set!

I observed yellow streaks when moving my eyes rapidly from side to side even though the picture was not changing. I didn't see this on the LCD's flanking it which were displaying the same picture. How can the explanation of different phosphor decay times explain this effect?Yellow trails observed on a plasma displaying a moving picture and Yellow trails observed on a plasma displaying a still picture are the exact same phenomenon. That being persistence of vision.

When the image is still you need to move your retina to percieve the temporal color seperation (green,red lasting longer than blue). When the image is moving the color seperation occurs automatically during each frame change (object on the screen changes position). You will see post positional green/red phosphor emission after each frame change.

Of course your sensitivity to the temporal artifact will determine if you see it at all. In my case I can't (whew!)

Cheers

I thought I'd resurrect this thread after a disconcetring experience yesterday viewing a 428XD in a store. It had an HD demo with some static white text on a (admittedly deep) black background. I observed yellow streaks when moving my eyes rapidly from side to side even though the picture was not changing. I didn't see this on the LCD's flanking it which were displaying the same picture.

How can the explanation of different phosphor decay times explain this effect?

I think I explained this earlier in the thread, but green phosphor decays slowest, so as the plasma cells are refreshing and the red and blue phosphors quickly extinguish, green continues to emit significant amounts of light, which leads to yellowish/greenish trails depending on the speed of the phosphors in question. It's quite similar to what you see on a CRT.

I just got my first Plasma, Samsung 5054. If I move my eyes around the screen I see flashes of green. Also, in dark scenes I have blotchey clumps of black on the screen. I see it on both DVD and cable. This baby is going back. I'm getting a 55" Hitachi plasma in exchange on Friday (9/21). I have a sick feeling it'll be the same. If it is . . . back IT goes too!. Maybe Sony SXRD? Don't know. I had a Sony KDF-50WE655 that developed pink "dust bunnies" on the screen so I sold it "as is" for $500. Sony wouldn't cover dust on the LCD panels. Maybe there's no such thing as the perfect, (or anywhere near perfect) picture?? Katzman

Just had to exchange a Pio Elite KURO Pro-1150HD for a Sony 52XBR4 due to this issue with Plasmas causing visual trails of colors after fast motion (trails).

4 years ago it was the same situation with buying a DLP and exchanging for a RP-LCD (no issues with LCD as panel or RP)

I have truly come to believe that the level that people can tolerate this visual issue is completely related to how their eyes respond and is extremely different for each person as it is how the display techn effects the person. Not an effect seen "on-screen" by all.

You're the first person to see anything like this on the 8g, so it's a non-issue for the vast majority of people.

Likewise, it's a major issue for me with my new 5010. It's going back because of it. Gears of War and Sin City are disasters on this thing due to all the yellow trails everywhere.

I'm one of the unlucky ones.

I can see the flashing and green trails really easily, but I have gotten used to the flashing (hardly notice it anymore) and the green trails are ignorable (I'd rather have this than LCD bluring) I don't see why so many people play Gears on new Plasma's because it is probably the roughest game to play on a Plasma (image retention is very bad with this game and can be hard to get rid of some times) I have a Panasonic 42px75 with about 80 hours on it and love it.

I can see the flashing and green trails really easily, but I have gotten used to the flashing (hardly notice it anymore) and the green trails are ignorable (I'd rather have this than LCD bluring) I don't see why so many people play Gears on new Plasma's because it is probably the roughest game to play on a Plasma (image retention is very bad with this game and can be hard to get rid of some times) I have a Panasonic 42px75 with about 80 hours on it and love it.

Um... because it's my TV? What am I supposed to play it on? I mean, I can understand it if someone is saying, "I can see these weird yellow blurs when I move my hand in front of my face really quick, while darting my eyes around the screen", THEN it is acceptable to tell them, "Don't do that then." But it gets ridiculous when people start saying "Don't play your video games on your 4,000 dollar TV because you can see yellow blurs on it ALL the time, easily." For me, that becomes a fault of the display technology (combined with my eyes' ability to see the issue) and is not something to be worked around by abandoning a favorite pass-time. Like I've said, it's unfortunate I (and others) are susceptible, because it does ruin what is an otherwise beautiful display.

Edit - I thought you were talking about the ghosting, but I see now that you say image retention. You mean just from the HUD? I haven't had any issue at all with that after playing for no more than an hour. Course I don't normally have marathon gaming sessions, so if I did I guess it might be a concern.

Funny...I recently got my Panny TH-PX5077U and noticed this right away. My wife doesn't see it all, and it took me weeks to find any information about it. I guess the good news is that I'm not nuts. The bad news is that my eyes can see it.

Regardless, this set's picture is by far the best of any set I've owned (and that's many at this point).

For those who wear glasses and see this, try wearing your contacts (if you have them). The issue seems much more pronounced when I'm watching tv through my glasses (and especially at any angle other than straight on).

So glad I'm not nuts...but I'm surprised there isn't more talk about it. Maybe it really is dependent on the individual.

Maybe it really is dependent on the individual.

It must be as I have never seen it either. Not saying it does not exist, just that I have never seen it.

Yea I see these rainbows / trails on my Pioneer 4280 as well.. But Ive decided its not bad enough to warrant settling with all of LCD's downsides, In fact I took back the 4280 and have a 5080 arriving tomorrow ;)

I bought an LG plasma about a month ago and found it odd that I could see rainbows on a black and white movie! Glad I came across this thread.
I find as long as I watch a movie normally, and don't dart my eyes back and forth, the rainbows aren't an issue.
It's very interesting how eyesight sensitivity varies. I can't see screen door effect with my extended definition plasma from 6 feet away, and I can't see flicker on my hi def Sony tube tv set.
Others are bothered greatly by these issues!

I first tought that my pal's Pio plasma was malfunctioning, but as he had paid $4000 I didn't want to make him disappointed by pointing out the flaws. But when I'm at his place, I can barely watch a movie through without beeing intensely irritated and getting sore eyes. Lucky I couldn't afford a plasma and went for LCD :-)

It's amazing that plasmas are generally meant to have superior picture quality over LCD, when they all have this issue. I'll do my best to inform my peers of the problem, so they know what they are getting into, and check if they are sensitive to flicker, before buying a screen that will make their eyes hurt... Most people can't even see the difference between plasma and LCD picture quality, but if they are sensitive to flicker, they surely notice the yellow flashes!

It's amazing that plasmas are generally meant to have superior picture quality over LCD

I'm not sure why you'd assume that. The new samsung LCDs are superb...

I first tought that my pal's Pio plasma was malfunctioning, but as he had paid $4000 I didn't want to make him disappointed by pointing out the flaws. But when I'm at his place, I can barely watch a movie through without beeing intensely irritated and getting sore eyes. Lucky I couldn't afford a plasma and went for LCD :-)

It's amazing that plasmas are generally meant to have superior picture quality over LCD, when they all have this issue. I'll do my best to inform my peers of the problem, so they know what they are getting into, and check if they are sensitive to flicker, before buying a screen that will make their eyes hurt... Most people can't even see the difference between plasma and LCD picture quality, but if they are sensitive to flicker, they surely notice the yellow flashes!

And if they are sensitive to yellow flashes then they are probably also sensitive to LCD motion blur as well. You can't win when you see this stuff.

I knew grene/yellow fringing on plasmas was inherent to the technology but I actually didnt think there was this many instances and discussion about it. It's actually more common than I thought to begin with. I've seen it too especially on my 60 inch panasonic 07 model, never on a pio although I see people talk about it.

I guess it's really more of an issue than I thought.

Why are you posting to a 2-month old thread with random comments .. hmm..

Anyone comment on how the new panny 08 models handle the trailing?

I guess I am lucky, I have seen many many plasma models from almost every manufacturer since their inception and have never seen the yellow trails mentioned by some posters. THis is not to say you don't see them but if you do, plasma is not the technology for you.

Hello everyone,

I don't know if it has been discussed in this board earlier, but I seem to be able to see this rainbow like effect on LCD TVs too.

I recently bought a Sony KDL-40W4000 and I can easily see some greenish flashes in high contrast scenes (still images too) when I move my eyes rapidly.

This effect seems to be most noticeable when the backlight of the TV is set to minimum. If I increase the backlight to almost maximum I cannot see it anymore.

Does anyone have a scientific explanation to this effect? :confused:

Hello everyone,

I don't know if it has been discussed in this board earlier, but I seem to be able to see this rainbow like effect on LCD TVs too.

I recently bought a Sony KDL-40W4000 and I can easily see some greenish flashes in high contrast scenes (still images too) when I move my eyes rapidly.

This effect seems to be most noticeable when the backlight of the TV is set to minimum. If I increase the backlight to almost maximum I cannot see it anymore.

Does anyone have a scientific explanation to this effect? :confused:

I've seen them on my PSP screen as well..... Try a Samsung LCD and see if you can see them on it as well.

I've never seen rainbow-like artifacts per se on an LCD, however I have seen many LCDs particularly older LCD projectors with a kind of scanline artifact, but you don't really see colors. I'm not sure what you're seeing.

I've never seen rainbow-like artifacts per se on an LCD, however I have seen many LCDs particularly older LCD projectors with a kind of scanline artifact, but you don't really see colors. I'm not sure what you're seeing.

I found one explanation in AVForums. It has been reported in Sony X3000/X3500 series thread. I have to quote it since I can't post links yet:

The rainbowing is the backlight dimmer - it uses pulse width modulation to control the amount of light and the flicker beats with the panel refresh rate. The lower the light, the less time the tube is illuminated for and the more obvious the rainbowing. At max backlight, it's on constantly and there is consequently no rainbow effect.

If you have a PS3, put it in the mode where it asks you if you want to turn off the system, which gives you bright white graphics on a black screen. Put the backlight on minimum and just flick your eyes around the screen, you'll see predominantly green flashes. Turn the backlight up and the effect reduces until it disappears at max setting.

Chris, do you agree with the above?

I'm not sure why you'd assume that. The new samsung LCDs are superb...

They might be superb...for LCD. They still cant quite get the blacks right and stillsuffer from that washed-out LCD "look" that everyone falls in love with at Circuit City.

Hey, all good with me.

Hello everyone,

I don't know if it has been discussed in this board earlier, but I seem to be able to see this rainbow like effect on LCD TVs too.

I recently bought a Sony KDL-40W4000 and I can easily see some greenish flashes in high contrast scenes (still images too) when I move my eyes rapidly.

This effect seems to be most noticeable when the backlight of the TV is set to minimum. If I increase the backlight to almost maximum I cannot see it anymore.

Does anyone have a scientific explanation to this effect? :confused:
Magic mushrooms?:D

It sounds like Yume is trying to derail the topic here... :rolleyes: And as far as the 2008 Panasonic plasmas go, they still exhibit the phosphor trail effects, just like the Kuros. The black level of most plasmas (other than the 2008 pannys or the kuros) is not very good... come on people! :p

It sounds like Yume is trying to derail the topic here... :rolleyes:

Should I create a new thread about this issue in LCD board instead? :confused:

Should I create a new thread about this issue in LCD board instead? :confused:

Alright I created a new topic here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14026135#post14026135) to keep this thread about plasma only. :)

edit: Moderator can delete my posts from this thread if needed.

Same here, really bad. It's like I can almost make out the vertical blanking interval in my peripheral vision. Another interesting effect is to, for lack of a better description, mechanically modulate your vision (sexy huh?), say by clearing your throat or coughing while looking at a DLP or CRT image. I first noticed this with PC CRT images years ago...pretty weird strobe-like effect.

I think that might be interlaced flicker you're seeing. That's a common visual hiccup. I see it too. Check it the next time you go in and see if the progessive tubes (i.e. the HD ones) feature it too.

They might be superb...for LCD. They still cant quite get the blacks right and stillsuffer from that washed-out LCD "look" that everyone falls in love with at Circuit City.

Hey, all good with me.

Samsung LCD blacks are better than all plasmas other than the Kuro, I believe.

I just picked up the Pioneer Kuro PDP-5010FD at Costco for $2600 but have a concern. My family watches a boat load of TV. We have DTV sat and I get local HD off the air with all first going though a HD Tivo DTV box and then into my Denon 3806 A/V reciever. All components go to the Denon and then to the TV.

I am in the mist of remodeling so I set up the Pioneer on our dinning room table to burn it in. I did not read the manual as I just wanted to start the burn in cycle. I first connect the off air antenna (to get HD signal to the TV) but got a really crappy signal. I then took our HD Tivo box and conneted the DTV sat and the off air antenna to it, and then connected component video cables to the Pioneer. Got a good pitcure. Does this mean the Pioneer does not have a HD tuner?

Also, everyone in my family is complaining that the picture is lousy. We are sitting around 10 feet from the TV and watching SD channels. 10 feet will be the maximum sitting area in the living room when it gets completed. Is a 50 in too big? For non-blue ray veiwing, is the Pioneer plasma too much? I was originally looking at the Samsung LN52A650 at a lower price but went for the Pioneer because of the Costco deal and all the positive reviews. I am now thinking that I need a smaller TV than 50 in and maybe even an non-plasma for the type of viewing we normal do.

Any suggestion. I still have time to return the Pioneer to Costco.

Are the channels you are getting Digital or Analog OTA? I'm not sure how it is for the 5010, but for my 151 there's an option to switch between the two. The button my remote is DTV/TV. Check to see if that's the problem.

Honestly, digital SD channels should still look pretty good on the 5010. 50" for 10 feet away is not too big in fact, I, personally, would even go with a 60", but that's just me. Also, will you be getting a blu-ray player? Why is it going to be solely non-blu-ray viewing?

Thanks for the reply Aetherhole.

All channels OTA are digital. The way the TIVO HD box is set up is to take the basic channels (eg channel 2) from DTV sat signal and take the HD channels (eg. channel 2.1 & 2.2) from OTA antenna.

One of my coworkers came by and I told him what was happening and he asked me what digital signal I was sending to the TV. It triggered a memory. My old TV although HD ready, only supported up to 720P. I had problem with the TIVO box set to 1080i so I change the output to 480P. I am only allowing 480P to go to the Pioneer. I will change this tonight and see if this was the problem.

As for the non-Blue Ray, it is matter of cost. I completely remodeled our living room to put the TV over the fireplace. Changed fireplace to gas and bought a high end log set, lowered the fireplace and added a new mantel and hearth. Change the floors to hardwood and then bought new furniture. So far, I have only heard a few minor comments from my wife. I think it is time to put the spending breaks on for a while.

One other thing I did notice in the room I am burning in the Poneer. It is warm. Do Plasmas product more heat than LCD? The mantel I put over the fireplace extends out 12 inches to keep the heat from the TV. I did not think the TV would product its own.

i see the rainbows on all dlps but never on plasmas. i guess no matter how good tvs get there will never be one perfect set bcuz everyones eyes sre different.

Bring Back Crts!!!

I hereby nominate tmacias for Most off-topic thread poster of the week!

Cruel....I agree. Poor guy's been running SD on a HD set. Sounds like something I would have done.

Back on topic. Anyone with the visual sensitivity that sees the yellow freinging (rainbows)with rapid eye movement in high contrast usually black and white scenes, notice an increase or decrease with the 120 hz sets?

Seems to me that as the refresh rate increases the effect should lesson....but just not sure.

Any comments?

i saw this too at first on my Pio 5010. after a month i never do, unless i'm purposefully darting my eyes back and forth (not actually watching the panel).

Wanted to add my experience to the historical record here. I picked up a Pioneer 5080 in January. Had never heard of the color flash/trailing issue with plasma before I got it. After being completely satisfied watching OTA fare on it for a few weeks and thinking I had the baddest tv on the block, I put in an old B&W movie on DVD and thought i was trippin' seeing these little flashes of yellow/green dancing around the screen.

I immediately came to AVS to understand what in the world I was seeing and found this thread. I was quite concerned and wondered if plasma was going to work for me. There were some encouraging posts that made me hopeful that the effect would disappear over time.

I am happy to report back 6 months later that the effect is now virtually gone. Once in a blue moon I might briefly notice it, but it is rare and in no way inteferes with my enjoyment of the Pio.

As the original poster stated nearly three years ago, I too see these rainbow-style effects on plasma screens. Any plasma screen. Every one that I've ever looked at. I would call it more of a greenish-yellow than straight yellow.

I also see them on CRT rear projection sets, but it's always distinctly green and red. I never really see the blue.

I've never seen rainbows with LCDs.

FYI: I own a plasma set. I do prefer the plasma picture over LCD.

i did see rainbow effect on my plasma the first 3 weeks, now i can´t see it anymore, i got used to it. thank god! it was annoying by then.

Just wanted to add my two cents here. I picked up a 9G Pioneer 5020 the other week and have been plagued with yellow/green flashes. I noticed them not more than an hour after setting it up (I used D-Nice's settings, so its not in torch mode) and started googling and ran into this thread.

I'm going to try fiddling with the color controls but at this point it looks like I'm going to have to return it. It sucks because other than the flashing, its a truly stunning picture.

Glad I'm not alone, as my gf can't see it at all...

It's strange how it is nearly always Panasonlc or Pioneer plasma owners who report these trails etc. I have a LG 50" plasma and don't see anything...even when watching black 'n' white. So I don't know if it's my TV or my eyes or both? Must be reasonably common as I've even seen youtube videos on this.

It's strange how it is nearly always Panasonlc or Pioneer plasma owners who report these trails etc. I have a LG 50" plasma and don't see anything...even when watching black 'n' white. So I don't know if it's my TV or my eyes or both? Must be reasonably common as I've even seen youtube videos on this.

It's either your eyes or your source material.
I specifically tested a LG (as well as a Hitachi & Samsung) for the trails at a store over a year ago when I found out about them on my previous Panasonic & the ones on the LG were twice as bad.

I put in an old B&W movie on DVD and thought i was trippin' seeing these little flashes of yellow/green dancing around the screen.

I immediately came to AVS to understand what in the world I was seeing and found this thread. I was quite concerned and wondered if plasma was going to work for me. There were some encouraging posts that made me hopeful that the effect would disappear over time.

I am happy to report back 6 months later that the effect is now virtually gone. Once in a blue moon I might briefly notice it, but it is rare and in no way inteferes with my enjoyment of the Pio.

Man that sucks. I love B&W movies and flashes would absolutely destroy them. We need a science/tech periodical to do a study on this phenomenon, especially because of how it apparently fades over time... I bet it would be very interesting.

I messed about with the colour controls after I posted my other message and have managed to lessen the trails quite a bit. I dropped the contrast and the green... its helped enough that its changing my mind about returning the Pioneer.

Its a tough one; LCDs have a lot of minuses and I really don't want to go back to my old CRT...

Decisions, decisions. Its helped that some people have reported that it seems to lessen over time (although not everyone agrees with that).

I messed about with the colour controls after I posted my other message and have managed to lessen the trails quite a bit. I dropped the contrast and the green... its helped enough that its changing my mind about returning the Pioneer.

Its a tough one; LCDs have a lot of minuses and I really don't want to go back to my old CRT...

Decisions, decisions. Its helped that some people have reported that it seems to lessen over time (although not everyone agrees with that).

I don't think messing with the green would help, though lowering the contrast certaintly will.

I don't think messing with the green would help, though lowering the contrast certaintly will.

After more monkeying around, I'm going to agree with that. Of course, lowering the contrast kind of defeats the purpose of the whole thing...

A recent patent by Pioneer suggests they can tweak the materials inside the individual colored phosphor subpixels to change the time delay for discharge. It sure sounded like they were addressing the color seperation problem but after reading the entire patent it seems more like they are adjusting the color reproduction (whiter whites.....)

"In addition, for the phosphor layer of the PDP according to the present invention, the red phosphor layer, the green phosphor layer and the blue phosphor layer respectively include different amounts of the secondary electron emission material determined in accordance with the electrification properties of the phosphor materials respectively used for forming the red, green and blue phosphor layers, such that the amounts of electrification of the red, green and blue phosphor layers are adjusted to be approximately equal to each other. Because of this adjustment, the discharge voltages in the red, green and blue unit light emission areas become approximately equal to each other so as to start the discharge approximately at the same time. In consequence, an increase in discharge voltage margin is achieved, thus achieving clearer white display.

Specifically, the discharge voltage required for initiating a discharge in the green discharge cell in which the green phosphor layer is formed is higher than those in the red discharge cell and the blue discharge cell. Accordingly, the discharge in the green discharge cell occurs slightly later than the discharge in the red and blue discharge cells. For this delay, even if the sustain discharge is initiated simultaneously in the red, green and blue discharge cells for a white display, the discharge intensity in the green discharge cell is reduced due to the time difference in discharge occurrence in the red, green and blue discharge cells, resulting in a magenta display instead of a white display."

After more monkeying around, I'm going to agree with that. Of course, lowering the contrast kind of defeats the purpose of the whole thing...

I think you'll get used to it. They were much more noticeable when I first bought a plasma. Now a year and two plasmas later, I don't see them anymore unless I'm looking for them.

I think you'll get used to it. They were much more noticeable when I first bought a plasma. Now a year and two plasmas later, I don't see them anymore unless I'm looking for them.
People say this about DLPs as well. I've had my a DLP projector with a 5x wheel for two or so years now, and I still see rainbows just as often as I did on day one. (I only kept it as it was so cheap)

I know the causes for phosphor lag are different, but if you see them even when you're not looking for them, they're not going to go away over time.

I know the causes for phosphor lag are different, but if you see them even when you're not looking for them, they're not going to go away over time.This is incorrect. I saw rainbows(without looking) when I first bought my plasma and it went away after two days.

Everyone's brain is wired differently. Some will always see the issue and some will not. I'm living proof. :)

w

This is incorrect. I saw rainbows(without looking) when I first bought my plasma and it went away after two days.

Everyone's brain is wired differently. Some will always see the issue and some will not. I'm living proof. :)
You got used to them, they didn't disappear. The image separation will still be there, you just don't notice it now.

You got used to them, they didn't disappear. The image separation will still be there, you just don't notice it now.If you don't see them anymore what's the difference?

w

If you don't see them anymore what's the difference?
The difference is that just because you got used to them after some time, it doesn't mean that someone else will.

If the problem disappeared over time, it wouldn't be an issue for anyone.

The difference is that just because you got used to them after some time, it doesn't mean that someone else will.
Like I said:


Everyone's brain is wired differently. SOME WILL ALWAYS SEE THE ISSUE and SOME WILL NOT. I'm living proof. :)

Just wanted to add my two cents here. I picked up a 9G Pioneer 5020 the other week and have been plagued with yellow/green flashes. I noticed them not more than an hour after setting it up (I used D-Nice's settings, so its not in torch mode) and started googling and ran into this thread.

Glad I'm not alone, as my gf can't see it at all...

Wow! I just found this thread. I purchased a 9G Pioneer 6020 a couple weeks ago and I immediately started experiencing this issue. I even described it as "greenish rainbow" to my dealer even before finding this thread. I see it mostly in high contrast scenes. For example, during Battlestar Galactica in HD, there are many scenes of space and darkness with high contrast, this is when it is the worse, almost unwatchable for me, gives me eye pain and headaches after a while. On day-time scenes or sports such as baseball for example, it's still noticable, but not as bad.

I thought I was the only one until I found this thread. My wife doesn't see it and has no idea what I'm talking about.

Add me to the list. I just bought a Samsung 42" plasma and on high contrast scenes I see a rainbow effect. Still, I'd rather that than an LCD.

Ah, I see rainbows too!

This is a Panasonic th-46pz8e. Its not very bad though. I also photographed the tv (by doing a sweeping motion during exposure) on a paused screen and its clear there is a rainbow-effect, even on static screens which surprised me. I hate DLP for example. I can live with this, though. I knew about plasma green flashes, but I had no recollection of them being there all the time (ie. on static imagery) so I was a bit surprised.

I've actually read this thread abt. a year ago, but forgot about it! =)


Anyway, I am super-happy with my plasma. 1080p is other-wordly.

Big Buck Bunny is actually the best 1080p I can play atm, bit weak CPU.

It is pretty funny why im here. I just got a 50px80u....my first plasma....today. After watching for a while I swore a couple rainbows caught my eye when something solid white was against something dark. I just ignored it thinking no way. Then I ran the anti-IR scrolling white bar and holy crap...RAINBOWS! I ran in here to google plasma rainbow effect because I had never heard of it. Guess Im one of the Chosen Ones.

Hi there!
I'm a new 42px80 owner and i xperience eyestrains while watching at my tv. I also get those eyestrains while watching at DLP projectors (although i don't see the rainbow)...
Is there any chance not to notice rainbow effect but to have eyestrains cause of the plasma tv?
Can anyone have eyestrains just by using the plasma tv as a pc desktop?

There are plenty of possible reasons why you get eye strain. You may be seeing flicker, may be adjusting to the bigger size (more eye movement) or may be getting strain from the high contrast. I doubt you are getting strain from rainbows that you don't even see.

Cheers

Well after years of not being able to see this color seperation I'm now exceedingly efficient at seeing it. Now that I'm able to see it and not just theorize it's cause, I can agree that it definitley looks like there are two seperate artifacts.

1 - retinal persistence (plainbows)

2 - phospor decay (green/yellow flashing)


I also would like to suggest that inherent problem threads like this one might be better served as a private thread. I say this because if this thread never existed, I would have never ever noticed the color seperation.

Ignorance is bliss.........

Well after years of not being able to see this color seperation I'm now exceedingly efficient at seeing it. Now that I'm able to see it and not just theorize it's cause, I can agree that it definitley looks like there are two seperate artifacts.

1 - retinal persistence (plainbows)

2 - phospor decay (green/yellow flashing)


I also would like to suggest that inherent problem threads like this one might be better served as a private thread. I say this because if this thread never existed, I would have never ever noticed the color seperation.

Ignorance is bliss.........


Could you explain better what retinal resistance is?

If you have never read about that and never have noticed the color separation, wouldnt it be better for your eyes? :)

Hmm... this thread is funny... Seriously, the phosphor decay issue is the main deal breaker for me. It was something I noticed the first time I played video games on a plasma (Wii -> component -> LG 42" 720p plasma) back in '06. On top of that, the Kuro displays are among the best exhibitors of this problem. If the plasma tech didn't have this glaring issue, I'd be the happy owner of a PRO-111FD.

+1 to ignorance is bliss.... except I noticed this issue before seeing this thread... :p

Perhaps plasma TVs mfgs will finally be able to address this problem within the next couple of years (maybe the year after 1080p plasmas can acheive 1080 lines of motion resolution)?

Could you explain better what retinal resistance is?

If you have never read about that and never have noticed the color separation, wouldnt it be better for your eyes? :)I could write a long explanation on how these two artifacts happen and how to see them better but I would rather not because when you understand what is going on it makes it easier to see. If you want I can PM you.

I'd like to stay in the dark for now thanks...

Well the thing that annoyes me on my plasma is that some spots on the screen seem like small stars, like changing colour for a moment....

Recently I've been doing some physiological experiments on myself. Couple interesting things to share:

1 - I can reproduce the plainbow effect (retinal persistence) on my LCDs and CRTs but it takes a lot more effort.

2 - My perception of flicker on plasma displays can be reduced to zero by having ~ 2-3 beers. For some reason "beer goggles" works for plasma as well :)

Recently I've been doing some physiological experiments on myself. Couple interesting things to share:

1 - I can reproduce the plainbow effect (retinal persistence) on my LCDs and CRTs but it takes a lot more effort.

2 - My perception of flicker on plasma displays can be reduced to zero by having ~ 2-3 beers. For some reason "beer goggles" works for plasma as well :)

Ok, that second point made me laugh. :D

Well after years of not being able to see this color seperation I'm now exceedingly efficient at seeing it. Now that I'm able to see it and not just theorize it's cause, I can agree that it definitley looks like there are two seperate artifacts.

1 - retinal persistence (plainbows)

2 - phospor decay (green/yellow flashing)


I also would like to suggest that inherent problem threads like this one might be better served as a private thread. I say this because if this thread never existed, I would have never ever noticed the color seperation.

Ignorance is bliss.........

needs to be the other way, I didnt see this thread, just googled it, before I bought my Pioneer 5020 and I am seeing rainbows:mad:

thought maybe I was going crazy while watching my new tv:( guess I am not alone. Not sure what to do, tempted to return it but I love the tv and already sold my LCD. Not rainbows on my lcd at least.

I think I noticed some trails on Star Wars, as the Tie fighters were swooping around the Millienium Falcon. I guess bright fast moving object on a black background is the most likely method of showing it?

I think I noticed some trails on Star Wars, as the Tie fighters were swooping around the Millienium Falcon. I guess bright fast moving object on a black background is the most likely method of showing it?

That would be one scenario where the effect is easily observed.

HOn top of that, the Kuro displays are among the best exhibitors of this problem. If the plasma tech didn't have this glaring issue, I'd be the happy owner of a PRO-111FD.


i just bought a 428xd and me and my gf are both extremly sensitive to phosphor decay problem. i cannot see that effect in other brands plasma (i dont even consider tham bcoz compared to pioneer, in my opinion, they are light bulbs). when i discovered this problem i went in verious stores to see if the effect was present in television of mine only or it was a generalized problem; i could spot it on every pioneer model (4280xd,lx5090,5080xd and so on) except an lx5080

to mitigate that effect i had to unbalance the white controls pushing up the high-blue to +9 and pushing down the high-green to -7 and high-red to -3 or so and i had to pull up the contrast (that's really funny). the colors havent the fidelty they had before, but not so by much

anyway i would ask if there are controls in the service menù to change the decay time of subpixels's phosphors

It is pretty funny why im here. I just got a 50px80u....my first plasma....today. After watching for a while I swore a couple rainbows caught my eye when something solid white was against something dark. I just ignored it thinking no way. Then I ran the anti-IR scrolling white bar and holy crap...RAINBOWS! I ran in here to google plasma rainbow effect because I had never heard of it. Guess Im one of the Chosen Ones.

I see them on my new Panny 42PZ80U. I swore I'd never get a DLP unit since I see rainbows on all of them (probably not on a 3chip unit, but I haven't watched one of those yet) and now I find out Plasma has a similar issue, although not as prominent.

I was watching The Thing a couple of hours ago when I noticed the effect on the whiteness of the snow.

I am going to watch Army of Darkness and pretend I didn't see the rainbows, since I don't want to go with an LCD.

I was very impressed with the Kuro until I put on a B & W movie. Yellowish or bluish flashes occur during motion scenes or when I move my head or blink my eyes. I understand from this thread that not everyone experiences this but I do.
At least I know I did not buy a defective tv. This is something inherent in the technology. Now I am faced with some options:

Return the TV and keep the LCD(Sony 135) or go with a newer LCD with better blacks (Sony 140). Keep the Kuro and hope the problem gets better as some have stated. Learn to live with this issue.

I called Pioneer and the agent thought this was an issue and he assigned a case number and a tech should call me. I can just see the tech coming here and saying he doesn't see the effect or that is normal.

I would like to know from more people if this problem goes away with break-in. Even though I got 30% off on this TV, it still is very expensive and I didn't expect an issue like this especially when I never saw it with months of research and comparisons in the stores.

Holy CRAP!

I can't believe this thread is still going!

I just bought a Samsung A750 and I HATE IT. I'm now considering getting a plasma again! LOL

I am trying to convince myself that I can live with the yellow flashes but I don't know. The Sammy is going back tomorrow. What shall I do? AAAAHHHHHHH

I was very impressed with the Kuro until I put on a B & W movie. Yellowish or bluish flashes occur during motion scenes or when I move my head or blink my eyes. I understand from this thread that not everyone experiences this but I do.
At least I know I did not buy a defective tv. This is something inherent in the technology. Now I am faced with some options:

Return the TV and keep the LCD(Sony 135) or go with a newer LCD with better blacks (Sony 140). Keep the Kuro and hope the problem gets better as some have stated. Learn to live with this issue.

I called Pioneer and the agent thought this was an issue and he assigned a case number and a tech should call me. I can just see the tech coming here and saying he doesn't see the effect or that is normal.

I would like to know from more people if this problem goes away with break-in. Even though I got 30% off on this TV, it still is very expensive and I didn't expect an issue like this especially when I never saw it with months of research and comparisons in the stores.
I don't think the phosphor decay rate changes significantly with age. Those who see it probably subconsciously learn to tune it out.

I have a three year old Panasonic plasma and could always see the yellow/green trails under the right conditions (I.E….scrolling credits on a black & white move). Fortunately I notice it so seldom that it doesn’t bother me. However when I do see it, it's just as noticeable as when the set was new.

I don't think the phosphor decay rate changes significantly with age. Those who see it probably subconsciously learn to tune it out.

I have a three year old Panasonic plasma and could always see the yellow/green trails under the right conditions (I.E….scrolling credits on a black & white move). Fortunately I notice it so seldom that it doesn’t bother me. However when I do see it, it's just as noticeable as when the set was new.Very true IMO. I was never able to see this effect until I learned more about it and started to train myself to see it. Now I'm exceptionally good at seeing it. But like you say, just as I was able to tune it in so to speak, I find I am able to tune it out as well. It is amazing how significant personal perception can be.

As for technique, I found that if I concentrate on stabalizing and slowing my eye movements the flashes become much less significant and fewer in number. After that it was easy to start to forget them and eventually stop noticing them.

I also don't notice it as much simply because I stopped looking for it and I've gotten used to it as others have said. Unfortunately, neither technology is perfect and you have to choose which issues you can live with. To me, bad black levels and viewing angle issues aggravate me more than occasional flashes that I can get used to, especially when I'm not jumping my eyes across the screen.

I will keep the plasma as the benefits outweigh the limitations. Every technology has its limitations and benefits. I prefer the plasma for movie viewing in a dark environment.
The Best Buy sales person suggested a calibration. I will probably do this after the intial break-in. In the meantime I noticed that as others here have stated, limiting your eye/head movements decreases this defect. Not wearing your glasses helps also.
As a side note I remember a similar effect during a TV commercial in 1966 or 1967. It was a soft drink commercial viewed on my small black and white tv. The commercial said: "You will enjoy this drink so much that you will think you can see color on your black and white tv". Sure enough there was an inch of color pulses on the tv screen. Anyone else here old enough to remember that commercial? I saw it only once and I think it was during Flipper.

I went back to Best Buy today with the black and white movie. We put it on all the tvs. The Pioneers and Panasonics (111 and 851) that had been on display for months showed no visible flashing to either of us. The Best Buy Sales representative noticed flashing on a Samsung plasma that had been in use for just a few weeks and pointed it out to me. He was not aware of this isuue until I pointed it out to him last night. We are now both of the opinion that this problem probably decreases with the age and use of the tv. Some of the people on this thread have stated different experiences. Time will tell.

I will keep the plasma as the benefits outweigh the limitations. Every technology has its limitations and benefits. I prefer the plasma for movie viewing in a dark environment.
The Best Buy sales person suggested a calibration. I will probably do this after the intial break-in. In the meantime I noticed that as others here have stated, limiting your eye/head movements decreases this defect. Not wearing your glasses helps also.
As a side note I remember a similar effect during a TV commercial in 1966 or 1967. It was a soft drink commercial viewed on my small black and white tv. The commercial said: "You will enjoy this drink so much that you will think you can see color on your black and white tv". Sure enough there was an inch of color pulses on the tv screen. Anyone else here old enough to remember that commercial? I saw it only once and I think it was during Flipper.

I see that you are in California. Please don't get a calibration done by Best Buy. You are in an area that has native calibrators that other's pay expensive travel fees to work with.

Fascinating discussion...

Here is my story. Earlier this year I purchased a Panasonic TH-42PZ77U. I ended up returning it because the TV had 2 dark bands that were visible on uniform backgrounds (soccer, hockey). I could also see very strong green phosphor trail effect when playing COD4 and Burnout on my PS3. Unfortunately, it seems that I am one of those individuals that can see these trails. I also used to have a Samsung DLP, and I could clearly see rainbows on that TV. I am sure with time I could get used to this, but I returned the set because of aforementioned dark bands that were visible permanently. Keep in mind that I used this set for only 4-5 days, so the phosphors did not have time to age properly.

I ended up purchasing a Toshiba 42RV530U, since I did not feel like lugging that 42kg monstrosity pz77u back and forth (I know that is not a great reason). I am relatively satisfied with rv530. However, I still miss the way plasma handles motion. LCD technology is still way behind when it comes to motion. Plasma also looks much more organic and natural, without giving everything that artificial and arguably fake look that LCD's tend to have.

The point is that I am thinking about giving away my RV530 to my parents and going out and trying my luck with plasma technology again. Every time I go to a store which has plasmas on display, I get blown away by how superior they look to their LCD counterparts, once you get past the insane brightness that LCD's produce in a store environment.

This is where it gets interesting - while comparing various plasmas today in a store, I am pretty sure that the 720p sets seemed to have significantly lesser amount of phospor lag than their 1080p counterparts. Keep in mind, the plasma that I returned earlier this year was a 1080p set. Could it be that 720p plasma panels are better optimized since they have been around longer? I know that it is very difficult to be objective under horrible lighting conditions that most stores have, but that's what it looked like to me.

Anyway, I am planning to pick up a Panasonic 720p 42-inch plasma tomorrow (the Costco model), and give it another try. I really don't care about 1080p, since blu-ray watching makes up about 15% of my TV-watching experience. Most of my content is 720p or 1080i. Plus, the 720p sets use way less energy and run much cooler. I will post back the results for any of my fellow "I can see rainbow-like effect" people ;)

Excited to be back in the plasma camp...

I see rainbows as well on plasma's. I have a new Panasonic TH-50PZ85U. I see them on all DLP's as well. The plasma rainbow for me consists of green/yellow rainbows. DLP's have all the colors. I'm fine with it on my plasma as I have to FORCE myself to see them. THey don't just randomly happen.

This is my second plasma and I love it. Coming from 2 DLP's (sammy HLN & HLT), 1 plasma (sammy), and 2 LCD's (sammy 6 series), this Panasonic PQ is head and shoulders above my past displays.

Well after years of not being able to see this color seperation I'm now exceedingly efficient at seeing it. Now that I'm able to see it and not just theorize it's cause, I can agree that it definitley looks like there are two seperate artifacts.

1 - retinal persistence (plainbows)

2 - phospor decay (green/yellow flashing)


I also would like to suggest that inherent problem threads like this one might be better served as a private thread. I say this because if this thread never existed, I would have never ever noticed the color seperation.

Ignorance is bliss.........


Yea, Most of us cannot see these rainbows or trails.
And we should not go trying to see them PERIOD.

If you are one of the peole who is sensitive to it and see it clearly, I would say just stay away from plasma. At least for now.

If you are one of the peole who is sensitive to it and see it clearly, I would say just stay away from plasma. At least for now.Now why would I want to go and do such a thing ? :) My 141FD is just beautiful IMO. And the color seperation is easily controlled with visual training in my case. I trained myself to see it and now I'm getting good at ignoring it as well.

Now why would I want to go and do such a thing ? :) My 141FD is just beautiful IMO. And the color seperation is easily controlled with visual training in my case. I trained myself to see it and now I'm getting good at ignoring it as well.

Let me re-phrase:

"If you are one of the people who is sensitive to it, see it clearly, and are really bothered by it, I would say just stay away from plasma. At least for now.

I remember reading about some guy who taped camera lenses over his eyes to help him see it. IMO that is just insanity.lol

Let me re-phrase:

"If you are one of the people who is sensitive to it, see it clearly, and are really bothered by it, I would say just stay away from plasma. At least for now.

I remember reading about some guy who taped camera lenses over his eyes to help him see it. IMO that is just insanity.lolLOL, yikes. I thought I had OCD issues :) I would say that I can now see the issue on the severe end of the scale (for years I could never see it, even when looking for it) and only get bothered by it if I start to focus and look for it. If I slow my eye movements and stop anticipating and looking for it I usually completely stop noticing it. It is really a non-issue for me but it is fun to understand it since I am a scientist.

LOL, yikes. I thought I had OCD issues :) I would say that I can now see the issue on the severe end of the scale (for years I could never see it, even when looking for it) and only get bothered by it if I start to focus and look for it. If I slow my eye movements and stop anticipating and looking for it I usually completely stop noticing it. It is really a non-issue for me but it is fun to understand it since I am a scientist.

So are you able to see it on CRT's?

LOL, yikes. I thought I had OCD issues :) I would say that I can now see the issue on the severe end of the scale (for years I could never see it, even when looking for it) and only get bothered by it if I start to focus and look for it. If I slow my eye movements and stop anticipating and looking for it I usually completely stop noticing it. It is really a non-issue for me but it is fun to understand it since I am a scientist.

Heck, even I've been able to train myself to either not see it, or be able to ignore it 95% of the time. (I think that I saw it once during my Gears 2 playthrough) so it is entirely possible to retrain your brain on how it sees the world..... I wonder what else I could retrain it to do? :eek:

Fascinating discussion...

Here is my story. Earlier this year I purchased a Panasonic TH-42PZ77U. I ended up returning it because the TV had 2 dark bands that were visible on uniform backgrounds (soccer, hockey). I could also see very strong green phosphor trail effect when playing COD4 and Burnout on my PS3. Unfortunately, it seems that I am one of those individuals that can see these trails. I also used to have a Samsung DLP, and I could clearly see rainbows on that TV. I am sure with time I could get used to this, but I returned the set because of aforementioned dark bands that were visible permanently. Keep in mind that I used this set for only 4-5 days, so the phosphors did not have time to age properly.

I ended up purchasing a Toshiba 42RV530U, since I did not feel like lugging that 42kg monstrosity pz77u back and forth (I know that is not a great reason). I am relatively satisfied with rv530. However, I still miss the way plasma handles motion. LCD technology is still way behind when it comes to motion. Plasma also looks much more organic and natural, without giving everything that artificial and arguably fake look that LCD's tend to have.

The point is that I am thinking about giving away my RV530 to my parents and going out and trying my luck with plasma technology again. Every time I go to a store which has plasmas on display, I get blown away by how superior they look to their LCD counterparts, once you get past the insane brightness that LCD's produce in a store environment.

This is where it gets interesting - while comparing various plasmas today in a store, I am pretty sure that the 720p sets seemed to have significantly lesser amount of phospor lag than their 1080p counterparts. Keep in mind, the plasma that I returned earlier this year was a 1080p set. Could it be that 720p plasma panels are better optimized since they have been around longer? I know that it is very difficult to be objective under horrible lighting conditions that most stores have, but that's what it looked like to me.

Anyway, I am planning to pick up a Panasonic 720p 42-inch plasma tomorrow (the Costco model), and give it another try. I really don't care about 1080p, since blu-ray watching makes up about 15% of my TV-watching experience. Most of my content is 720p or 1080i. Plus, the 720p sets use way less energy and run much cooler. I will post back the results for any of my fellow "I can see rainbow-like effect" people ;)

Excited to be back in the plasma camp...

Sorry to say but this is not the case. I started this set 3 years ago because I bought a 720p Panasonic plasma. The early sets were just as bad.

Here is my update...I picked up a TH-C42HD18, which is basically a Costco version of PX-80, a basic Panasonic 720p plasma. So far, I am extremely pleased with the set...it definitely has less rainbow-like phosphor trails than the plasma I tried last year (PZ77U). Could be the fact that the PZ77U was defective.

I am pretty sure that I will be able to live with slight phosphor trails which are only visible under certain conditions. To my eyes, the overall picture quality of plasma absolutely blows away current generation of LCD's, and I am willing to accept certain compromises.

When it comes to phosphor trails, I have found that there are several factors that make it easier to notice them:

- 60fps source (Call of Duty 4, Burnout Paradise); I cannot really notice any trails with regular 30fps and 24fps footage
- watching in absolute darkness; it is much more difficult to notice them if there is any ambient light in the room

The funny thing is that while I was trying to test my new plasma for these things, I was watching a 007 movie, and I kept getting "distracted" by getting into the movie and forgetting I was testing the screen...I guess that is how I would sum up the difference between the effect LCDs and Plasmas have on me - while LCDs draw my attention to the artificiality of the way the image is reproduced and literaly to the surface of the screen, Plasmas have that magic ability to draw me in and act as a window into the world of the movie.

Just my 2 cents.

I see dead people....

rofl..

This is the DEFINITIVE PLASMA VIDEO to use when buying a new plasma.
After downloading the zip file, burn both folders onto a DVD and then finilize if needed and they should be playable on most dvd and bluray players.
I wish I had this dvd when I was buying a Plasma.
There are 2 commercials on the video, the first one is not important, but the 2nd on is the most important 30 seconds I've ever watched while owning a Plasma.
PLEASE don't respond to this thread unless you have watched the video on a Plasma.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JCF4OJHP

Wow... you are about the one person in a million who sees this... (too bad for you, really).

Guess you'll have to stick to "live" performances, sporting events and theater instead of video recordings on TV... for shame, really....

;)

You're ABSOLUTELY WRONG. I did an experiment and showed a video to 10 people on a Panasonic Plasma, every single one of them saw the GPTs. I think almost everyone sees them, most people just don't notice them as they're camaflauged.
Burn this to DVD and play this on a plasma.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JCF4OJHP

I just bought a Samsung A750 and I HATE IT. I'm now considering getting a plasma again! LOL

So you took the XBR6 back already?

This is the DEFINITIVE PLASMA VIDEO to use when buying a new plasma.
After downloading the zip file, burn both folders onto a DVD and then finilize if needed and they should be playable on most dvd and bluray players.
I wish I had this dvd when I was buying a Plasma.
There are 2 commercials on the video, the first one is not important, but the 2nd on is the most important 30 seconds I've ever watched while owning a Plasma.
PLEASE don't respond to this thread unless you have watched the video on a Plasma.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JCF4OJHP

Just wondering,

you referr to your goofy video as the

"DEFINITIVE VIDEO" for plasma.

You are the only one who thinks it is definitive. Because you and a few others are the only ones who can detect this "Problem" during regular content.

But I guess if someone is going to watch Sin city and this "definitive" video over and over and over and over again, then it is the definitive video for you.

The other 99% of us will watch our Plasmas with no phosphor issues whatsoever.

So have fun being miserable.

I'm gonna have to agree with chad on this one, just give it up, there are many people who just simply can't see these trails. Who knows, if you stop constantly talking about it, and start trying to ignore it on normal content, you might just suddenly realize one day that you can't see them anymore. (hey, it worked for me.)

I put this on another thread about this that got locked, didn't even know this one existed, heh.

I just got a TH-46PZ80U and set it up. Since I read up as much as I could on the Panasonics, I knew that the phosphor stuff bothered some people.

So I spent hours staring at the screen to see if I could see phosphor trails. I couldn't without giving myself a migraine, squinting at high-motion, high-contrast scenes. When I rewound and watched those scenes without staring intently, I couldn't see them.

Just wanted to throw that out there for people who are researching their first plasma so they don't think that the world is composed of Jack Whites.

So I spent hours staring at the screen to see if I could see phosphor trails. I couldn't without giving myself a migraine, squinting at high-motion, high-contrast scenes. When I rewound and watched those scenes without staring intently, I couldn't see them.

I don't understand why people do this? Why try to see a problem? You either see it or you don't (or you tell your annoying buddy, who harps on it all the time, you do just to get him to leave you alone).

I'm not criticizing you Meatless, I just don't understand what the fascination with finding problems in the TVs are.

I don't understand why people do this? Why try to see a problem? You either see it or you don't (or you tell your annoying buddy, who harps on it all the time, you do just to get him to leave you alone).

I'm not criticizing you Meatless, I just don't understand what the fascination with finding problems in the TVs are.

Hell man, I wish I could tell you. I guess since it's my first high def TV, I was worried about investing in something I wouldn't enjoy. Why that made me try to not enjoy it, I don't know.

But it's all good; I know that I can't really see them even if I try really hard. I don't even think about it any more.

Hell man, I wish I could tell you. I guess since it's my first high def TV, I was worried about investing in something I wouldn't enjoy.

That I can understand. I see your point. I think my opinion on this comes more from those who not only try to see but who 'train' themselves to see it.

I'm one of the unfortunate who can see the trails. Call of Duty 4 and Fallout three are two titles that really exhibit it the most. And now, unfortunately, I'm able to spot it in most TV and movies. I'm really trying to train my eyes to ignore the green ghosting because the 50pz85u is a great set otherwise.

Posting to say that I notice the rainbow trail effect on my (now gone) Vizio 32 inch plasma, and the blur on LCDs makes LCDs worthless to me for anything that isn't 24 or ~30 fps (LCD also OK for web-browsing). Thus I am sticking with CRT (old CRT monitor and SD CRT TVs - I notice the refresh below 85 hz, but my monitor is able to output 85 hz). If I do not notice any motion problems with OLED, I am going to buy one once OLED becomes ~$1000 for 32 inch. Hopefully OLED will be the proper successor to CRT.

It was mentioned that if you look through a polarized camera filter the effect is less noticeable. So I tried putting on my polarized sunglasses et voila! it was indeed much better. In that respect anyway, because it's not ideal to watch movies with sunglasses. So, now I'm considering getting a pair of normal eye glasses (not sunglasses) with just an enhanced polarization filter (no other prescription - I don't wear glasses otherwise) to have just for watching movies. I know it sounds too much but if it means getting rid of the problem, I would totally do it.
So my questions are: has someone tried it? And is there a High Street shop/pharmacy where I could buy such glasses (with a good return policy to return if they don't work for my purpose)?

Fascinating discussion...

This is where it gets interesting - while comparing various plasmas today in a store, I am pretty sure that the 720p sets seemed to have significantly lesser amount of phospor lag than their 1080p counterparts. Keep in mind, the plasma that I returned earlier this year was a 1080p set. Could it be that 720p plasma panels are better optimized since they have been around longer? I know that it is very difficult to be objective under horrible lighting conditions that most stores have, but that's what it looked like to me.


This is exactly what I've been wondering. Do 720p sets have less phosphor trails than the 1080p? I seem to remember noticing that when I was watching a px80u and a pz85u right right next to each other at Best Buy.

I've been thinking about returning my 50" 720p to get a 1080p for blu-ray movies and reading pc text , but I wonder if the trails will be worse, most importantly for games like Fallout 3 and GTA4. I just got the set and the trails aren't *too* bad, a little annoying.

I also wonder if the trails on a 1080p will go away within the first few 100 hours. If that's the case I'd probably do the upgrade.

Does anyone know if the new sets coming out next month will have less green ghosting?

Does anyone know if the new sets coming out next month will have less green ghosting?

Panasonic is claiming full 1080p motion resolution on their new plasma sets coming out (up from 900 on their current models) so there is hope that they have fixed it in the coming models. (I'll be checking this when I pick one up when they come out)

Panasonic is claiming full 1080p motion resolution on their new plasma sets coming out (up from 900 on their current models) so there is hope that they have fixed it in the coming models. (I'll be checking this when I pick one up when they come out)There is a quote from panasonic that states there is new phosphor and less afterglow in the NeoPDP (not sure if it was NeoPDPeco only) that contributes to the increased motion resolution.

It may be coincidental but Panasonic also has a patent on new fast green phosphors on the uspto.gov site. The patent was applied for the same time that 5-lumen tech patent was applied for.

There is a quote from panasonic that states there is new phosphor and less afterglow in the NeoPDP (not sure if it was NeoPDPeco only) that contributes to the increased motion resolution.

It may be coincidental but Panasonic also has a patent on new fast green phosphors on the uspto.gov site. The patent was applied for the same time that 5-lumen tech patent was applied for.

Then there is a good chance that the upcoming sets will be a big improvment in this area, I'll be getting either the S or G as soon as they come out (haven't decided which one I will get just yet, it depends on the price and calibration options that the S series has) and you can bet that this is one of the first things that I will be testing after getting it set up. Now if only there was a set date and price for these.

Then there is a good chance that the upcoming sets will be a big improvment in this area, I'll be getting either the S or G as soon as they come out (haven't decided which one I will get just yet, it depends on the price and calibration options that the S series has) and you can bet that this is one of the first things that I will be testing after getting it set up. Now if only there was a set date and price for these.Here is the quote from the panasonic site:

"The newly developed NeoPDP technology has been incorporated into two types of PDPs. The first is a super high-efficiency 42-inch PDP that achieves triple luminance efficiency, while reducing the power consumption to 1/3 of the 2007 models*1 yet achieving the same brightness. The second is an ultra-thin 50-inch PDP just 8.8 mm (approximately 1/3 inch) in profile*2. This ultra-thin panel delivers the world's highest moving picture resolution*3 of 1080 lines.

Panasonic continues to refine its base technologies. Employing newly developed materials, such as discharge gas and phosphor for electron generation source has improved discharge efficiency and cell structure. The introduction of a new circuit drive method has cut the electricity loss to one third and enabled low-voltage drive. The triple luminance efficiency technology has reduced the number of components and enabled a higher integration of components. As a result, the technology has been incorporated into a 42-inch Full HD PDP.

Further advancements made to the panel structure and circuit layout have lead to an even thinner profile. While a full HD PDP has a moving picture resolution of more than 900 lines, the newly developed drive technology and materials to shorten the afterglow have attained the world’s highest moving resolution of 1080 lines, realizing precise reproduction of full HD programs of any speed without loss of detail. Panasonic’s new 50-inch HD PDP is just 8.8mm (approximately 1/3 inch) deep, with superb picture quality and thin panel design. "

I'm one of the unfortunate who can see the trails. Call of Duty 4 and Fallout three are two titles that really exhibit it the most. And now, unfortunately, I'm able to spot it in most TV and movies. I'm really trying to train my eyes to ignore the green ghosting because the 50pz85u is a great set otherwise.

Green phosphor lag is a downside to the 80/85u. I can see it as well. Oh well.

I noticed I see much fewer flashes when I put circular polarized filters from my cameras in front of my eyes when watching high contrast material.

Don't know why, perhaps because of less contrast. So now I am considering getting light gray polarized prescription eyeglasses to watch movies on my plasma - seriously.

Hi,
It's been ages since your post but did you end up doing this? Because I'm considering the same.

I took a video with my camera at 60fps of my panasonic plasma 46PZ80B (UK model) playing Sin City on Blu-ray. I then extracted a series of frames from the video and uloaded them here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30733881@N00/sets/72157601731416581/detail/

You can clearly see the color separation and the changing color tone of the white background, which gives a hint to the color flashes (if the eye perceives more than 60fps). Mind you, the camera was on a tripod, so everything recorded was not due to position/light change.

Then there is a good chance that the upcoming sets will be a big improvment in this area, I'll be getting either the S or G as soon as they come out (haven't decided which one I will get just yet, it depends on the price and calibration options that the S series has) and you can bet that this is one of the first things that I will be testing after getting it set up. Now if only there was a set date and price for these.

I found a video of the G10 series at CES which seems to have been taken with a camera set to a low exposure time and as such shows noticeable flicker on the displays.

http://cnettv.cnet.com/2001-1_53-50004980.html

Watching this video there are clearly instances where the trails appear. However, compared to other similar videos of previous generation plasmas they are infrequent and only appear when objects move extremely fast. Even when they do appear they are only noticeable for one frame, possibly due to the video frame being taken when the plasma is in between frames. Additionally, cameras exaggerate the trails quite a bit as does having the contrast on the TV cranked to the max (which these display models likely were) so the fact that they are infrequent and hard to spot on a high speed video bodes well for the NeoPDP displays in actual viewing.

Lay off the nitrous oxide ballons and acid hits when your trying to suck a twinkie through your 4 footer and I'm sure your vision issues watching TV will disappear.
You just responded to a post from three months ago and a member who hasn't posted anything here in just over two months...are you taking hits as well? :D

I understood the post was old, still wanted to add to it regardless.
I know...notice the :D. I was just giving you a hard time.

You just responded to a post from three months ago

Well it would be just amusing if was three months rather than from 2005.

Well it would be just amusing if was three months rather than from 2005.
Holy crap...you're right. I completely missed the year. Oops...but wow.

I understood the post was old, still wanted to add to it regardless.

Oh I see, you have bad vision & can not see them. Understandable.;)

just got a Kuro 500-M and i see rainbows. I am see them in all DLP but never on a LCOS so I am surprised I see them in a plasma. Doesn't bug me, I see them in bright light scenes

On my Kuro I see rainbows in areas of high contrast. So if a guy is wearing a white shirt and a black jacket I see it when the black and white meet.

I can confirm that Panasonic has greatly improved the green phosphor trails with their new models.

I have a Panasonic 54g10 and it has the least amount of green phosphor trailing of any Plasma set that I have ever seen, it is even better than the Kuro. So if you have major problems with these trails, give the new Panasonic's a shot as they are greatly improved over previous models.

Journal of Luminescence
Volume 129, Issue 9, September 2009, Pages 1088-1093

Material Laboratory, Corporate R&D Center, Samsung SDI

Fast-decaying phosphors are essential for a 3D plasma display panel (PDP) with high image quality. However, conventional green and red PDP phosphors have slow-decaying characteristics. We present the luminescence properties of new phosphors for 3D PDP application. Decay times of Y3Al5O12:Ce3+, (Y,Gd)Al3(BO3)4:Tb3+, and (Y,Gd)2O3:Eu3+ were significantly shorter than those of conventional PDP phosphors. CIE chromaticity coordinates and luminescence efficiencies of the phosphors were also suitable for PDP application. The development of fast-decaying PDP phosphors has enabled commercialization of 3D/2D switchable PDP television for the first time in PDP industry.

It's good to see the positive news in this area. I'm glad PDP technology is still moving forward with regard to this artifact.

Journal of Luminescence
Volume 129, Issue 9, September 2009, Pages 1088-1093

Material Laboratory, Corporate R&D Center, Samsung SDI

Fast-decaying phosphors are essential for a 3D plasma display panel (PDP) with high image quality. However, conventional green and red PDP phosphors have slow-decaying characteristics. We present the luminescence properties of new phosphors for 3D PDP application. Decay times of Y3Al5O12:Ce3+, (Y,Gd)Al3(BO3)4:Tb3+, and (Y,Gd)2O3:Eu3+ were significantly shorter than those of conventional PDP phosphors. CIE chromaticity coordinates and luminescence efficiencies of the phosphors were also suitable for PDP application. The development of fast-decaying PDP phosphors has enabled commercialization of 3D/2D switchable PDP television for the first time in PDP industry.

Question to be answered: What is the wear characteristic? Trading trails for burn-in is not my idea of a good deal. I currently own two 9G Kuros and did own a 150 for a while. On those sets, I never saw a sign of IR, let along burn-in. The very occasional trail that I see (only on white scrolling text on a black background) is to me a more than acceptable tradeoff for industry-leading wear and IR characteristics.

Maybe the new Samsung phosphors are also excellent with regard to burn-in and IR issues. But I'll let some other consumer go first.

I have been searching for this Rainbow effect you speak of , I have found no evidence on my 500M plasma. Does this phenomenon occur by chance and is it a rare breed? :D

I think it has to do with individual's eyes. I can see plainbows very easily and it seems to only be getting worse. Although I looked at a B&W photo from a Bluray on 20 TVs and none of them were nearly as bad as what it looks like on my Kuro.

I have been searching for this Rainbow effect you speak of , I have found no evidence on my 500M plasma. Does this phenomenon occur by chance and is it a rare breed? :D


As mike said, it entirely depends on your eyes.
If you have not seen them then you are like most everyone else and they are not a problem.

If you want to see an example of what it looks like for the small percentage of people who can see then Here is an example:

I used the "video" feature on my cheap digital camera to record the video below of my Pro-151fd.
When I watch this scene directly on my TV, I can't see any phosphor trail whatsoever. none, ZIP, Zero.

but I can see them in this homemade video while watching it on my LCD computer monitor..
Somehow, recording my plasma with my cheap camera, and then playing the video is maginfying the issue to where i can see it..
But I have never caught a glimse of this while viewing anything directly on my plasma.
my eyes can't detect the different phosphor decay times, but my cheap video camera can.

Watch the ending of the video when it plays a scene from "pans labyrinth" and look at the green/yellowish trails as the monster waves his arms around.

Somehow, by me videotaping my TV and then playing it on my computer, it makes the phosphor trails visible.

just look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tr4sABQoJA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tr4sABQoJA)


wierd huh?

As mike said, it entirely depends on your eyes.
If you have not seen them then you are like most everyone else and they are not a problem.

If you want to see an example of what it looks like for the small percentage of people who can see then Here is an example:

I used the "video" feature on my cheap digital camera to record the video below of my Pro-151fd.
When I watch this scene directly on my TV, I can't see any phosphor trail whatsoever. none, ZIP, Zero.

but I can see them in this homemade video while watching it on my LCD computer monitor..
Somehow, recording my plasma with my cheap camera, and then playing the video is maginfying the issue to where i can see it..
But I have never caught a glimse of this while viewing anything directly on my plasma.
my eyes can't detect the different phosphor decay times, but my cheap video camera can.

Watch the ending of the video when it plays a scene from "pans labyrinth" and look at the green/yellowish trails as the monster waves his arms around.

Somehow, by me videotaping my TV and then playing it on my computer, it makes the phosphor trails visible.

just look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tr4sABQoJA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tr4sABQoJA)


wierd huh?

Thanks, haven't seen any of that at all. I shall rent this Pan's Labyrinth movie and see if I can succeed in attaining this rainbow effect. :D It does look distracting in that video.

Thanks, haven't seen any of that at all. I shall rent this Pan's Labyrinth movie and see if I can succeed in attaining this rainbow effect. :D It does look distracting in that video.

chances are you wont see it.
most peoples eyes can't catch it like a camera can.

chances are you wont see it.
most peoples eyes can't catch it like a camera can.

I shall then attempt to record it and pause/slow motion the rainbow effect if possible on my old sony video camera. :D