I now have to add plasma to the list of new technologies that I see rainbows on. What a shame, really, 'cause plasma is - in my opinion - the best advanced technology on the market.

The thing that's most interesting to me is, not only do I see a rainbow-like effect on plasma - which manifests as almost hurtful quick yellow flashes during high-contrast scenes - but the effect is actually more irritating to me than the rainbows I see on DLP.

In light of these new developments, it seems that I'm resigned to only a few types of technologies: FP LCD, RP LCD (which I loathe), RP CRT and Direct-View CRT. The only problem is, the TV I will be buying will be going in my bedroom, roughly 8 ft. back from my bed. This leaves RP LCD and RP CRT out of the equation. The only LCD I remotely like is the 40" Sony XBR. The only direct-view CRT I remotely like is the 34" XBR 960. I can't begin to tell you guys just how disappointed I am about all this.

By the way, has anyone here had any experience with the BenQ 37" LCD available at TVA? It sounds like a sweet deal - and it's 1080p .... shame about it having only one component video input, though.

Any input, help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, guys.

Can you please explain to me the physics behind the phenomenon that you are saying exists? I understand other technologies have filter wheels, but plasma being individuals "light" cells confuses me on how the rainbow effect manifests itself.

Why is it that this effect is almost never talked about here at AVS? I think there was one previous thread.

Wow... you are about the one person in a million who sees this... (too bad for you, really).

Guess you'll have to stick to "live" performances, sporting events and theater instead of video recordings on TV... for shame, really....

;)

Can you please explain to me the physics behind the phenomenon that you are saying exists? I understand other technologies have filter wheels, but plasma being individuals "light" cells confuses me on how the rainbow effect manifests itself.

Why is it that this effect is almost never talked about here at AVS? I think there was one previous thread.

I couldn't possibly tell you about the physics of the problem. I mean, I don't design plasma TVs, nor do I have any real-world knowledge in regards to how they work. All I know is I see rainbows on every single one of them. You want to know how to test for the problem? Go up to a plasma displaying hot whites and wave your hand back and forth across the screen - you'll see a trail of colors. Now, obviously, that's not the ONLY way I see the rainbows. I usuallly see the rainbows during high-contrast scenes. For example, I was watching Return of the King last night - the scene where the Orcs stealthily assault Faramir and his posse ... in that scene .. the warrios of Minas Tirith wear silver amor .... the effect i see happens very often in that scene ... flashes of yellow kind of pulse off their armor .. flashing very quickly .. it's almost imperceptible but long periods of exposure lead to terrible eye strain for me. I also see the effect during the seige of Carentan in Band of Brothers. There's a lot of blooming white in that sequence .. and a lot of camera movement and moving soldiers ... the white flashes are all over the place in that sequence.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=540599&highlight=rainbow+plasma

This thread confirms what I'm seeing. And breaks it all down very well.

Direct view did you mean, I wonder, when FP LCD you said? Projectors and screens does the term FP LCD to my mind bring. Especially when in the same breath mentioned was the BenQ...

Nothing it is, which surpasses in picture quality CRT.

HTH, master.

Direct view did you mean, I wonder, when FP LCD you said? Projectors and screens does the term FP LCD to my mind bring. Especially when in the same breath mentioned was the BenQ...

Nothing it is, which surpasses in picture quality CRT.

HTH, master.


LOL. Excellent Yodaisms.

i can see it to ... this is the yellow flash thing between areas of high contrast / high movement??

for me it goes away when im watching the tv in a brighter room ... this is why i never noticed it in the stores !!!


... after a while of watching the tv in a darkened room it seems to go away for the most part .... still going to keep the 50" plasma though !!

I dont quite understand... the only time this phenomenon occurs is when a color is placed in the set, so most DLP's, and a couple older LCoS sets. Everything else should never have this effect, either your seeing something else, or you may in fact need to get your eyes looked at. Now of course I dont doubt you are seeing what your seeing I just doubt its the RBE.

EDIT (7:49pm): BTW I feel like an idiot, I didnt check the thread title very well, "rainbow-like effect", my apologies.

One thing that came out of the previous Rainbow thread - was what to call the problem. Some people saw rainbows but others saw partial rainbows. There really was no single cause the problem that was nailed down. The main suspects were: sub-pixel controllers not working correctly and individual perception.

I find this thread and the last very interesting. The reason is (at least to me) that a plasma have phosphors and that the decay times on these are very fast (CRT like). So, the cause most likely some sort of electronics processing.

Maybe a very miscalibrated display combined with a person who is more sensititive to slow processing is the cause? Lighiting and source data may compound the effect. I have to imagine that very few people actual see this.

I find this similar to refresh rates on computer monitors - I used to complain that 60 Hz hurts my eyes, but other people said I was seeing things. The difference here is that many people complained about the 60hz problem, while here at AVS only a few threads address the plasma-rainbow effect

Until I know what it is, I think I call it the PLAINBOW effect short for "plasma rainbow".

Hmmm, interesting...

Until I know what it is, I think I call it the PLAINBOW effect short for "plasma rainbow".
Sure I'll vote on that.

Just remember everyone, there is a pot of gold at the end of every rainbow! :)

The reason is (at least to me) that a plasma have phosphors and that the decay times on these are very fast (CRT like).

Ahhh, but remember that the mechanism lighting the phosphors up is quite different between a CRT and plasma. That's ultimately what I'm guessing the cause it. Not the sub-pixel controller which only Panasonic says that they have. That wouldn't explain why other plasmas have it too. I'm betting its to do with plasma technology itself. Hence, how the phosphors are being lit. ;)

My settings are not in torch mode. Contrast is at 15. Brightness is at +2 with the set in Cinema mode (the lowest contrast setting).

I played Halo 2 a bit earlier and noticed that when I moved around it seemed as if the colors would smudge around hot whites. Does anyone know that snow map on Halo 2? I forget the name of it. But that's the map where I noticed this effect. If you move your player's POV from left to right you can see this effect. It resembles a kind of motion blur .. where the colors all bulge together around white spots.

Right now, I'm watching Rome and I see different things ... flashing yellows .. and sometimes different colors ... blue and red.

Weird thing is, i find the problem a lot worse watching movies than when playing games.

Ahhh, but remember that the mechanism lighting the phosphors up is quite different between a CRT and plasma. That's ultimately what I'm guessing the cause it. Not the sub-pixel controller which only Panasonic says that they have. That wouldn't explain why other plasmas have it too. I'm betting its to do with plasma technology itself. Hence, how the phosphors are being lit. ;)

I believe that synchronizing the subpixels (elements red, green, and blue) can easily be done with a plasma, and firing time (response time) from tigger to photons out can be very well controlled. It has to be, otherwise the picture would suffer from blurry edges and thing would look like a mess.

To me, the plainbow effect (I like that term) has to be processing delays merged with content (or something the like). I'm not saying controller specifically.

Hmmm...any chance of having some fluorescent lighting nearby? Just a thought.

I recall people complaining about yellow flashes while watching Sin City on plasmas.

Have you seen the rainbows on e-Alis panels? I have a 55" Fujitsu (current model) and I haven't noticed any rainbows - some false contouring at times but no rainbows yet.

Have you seen the rainbows on e-Alis panels? I have a 55" Fujitsu (current model) and I haven't noticed any rainbows - some false contouring at times but no rainbows yet.


Funny you should say that. I was looking at the Hitachi 42HDS52 at CC the other day and thought, for some reason, that I didn't see them on that set. . I love the colors on that panel. I might have to give it a go.

Yoda,

What a strange turn of events. Maybe the E-Alis panels will somehow work for you.

You have my sympathies. I've been intrigued with projectors for quite a while but I see rainbows on every friggin' single-chip DLP. I tried watching Star Wars (Sith) on one recently and there were so many rainbows it became almost ridiculous. Not only that, it appears I may see rainbows (or a rainbow-like effect) even on 3 CHIP DLPS! (Which, lacking color wheels, are not supposed to have any rainbow effect). I was watching a Simm 3 chip DLP projector and the high-contrast areas kept breaking up as my eyes looked around the image. Not into different colors, but the high-light area would break into flashing trails. I mentioned it on the projector forum and the idea was batted around. Someone else said they saw the same thing, and others offered what they thought were technical possibilities for seeing such artifacts even on 3 chip DLPS.

Funny thing is I don't see rainbows on any plasmas. And ever since the plasma-rainbow thing came up I've tried. Even on my own I put on the most brutal rainbow-inducing sequences (the type that are intolerable on DLPs for me) and....nothing. So I don't think I'll keep looking.

Best of luck.

Just to chime in, I see these yellow flashes too on my TH-50PHD8UK.
Sin City was one of the first movies I watched on it, and one of the worst for these flashes. I wouldn't call them rainbows-- they're yellow with a bit of blue.
Don't see any rainbows on my brother's DLP. I have an astigmatism, I wonder if this has any bearing on the perception of these flashes?

Bumpidy Dump.

I couldn't possibly tell you about the physics of the problem. I mean, I don't design plasma TVs, nor do I have any real-world knowledge in regards to how they work. All I know is I see rainbows on every single one of them. You want to know how to test for the problem? Go up to a plasma displaying hot whites and wave your hand back and forth across the screen - you'll see a trail of colors. Now, obviously, that's not the ONLY way I see the rainbows. I usuallly see the rainbows during high-contrast scenes. For example, I was watching Return of the King last night - the scene where the Orcs stealthily assault Faramir and his posse ... in that scene .. the warrios of Minas Tirith wear silver amor .... the effect i see happens very often in that scene ... flashes of yellow kind of pulse off their armor .. flashing very quickly .. it's almost imperceptible but long periods of exposure lead to terrible eye strain for me. I also see the effect during the seige of Carentan in Band of Brothers. There's a lot of blooming white in that sequence .. and a lot of camera movement and moving soldiers ... the white flashes are all over the place in that sequence.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=540599&highlight=rainbow+plasma

This thread confirms what I'm seeing. And breaks it all down very well.

I have watched and rewatched that scene (on a Pio 5030) from Return of the King - changing brightness, contrast, saturation and tint, numerous times - and I can't see this rainbow like effect - even waved my hand in front of my eyes a few times (my wife caught me doing this, further confirming her belief that I should be doing some things outside the house). Oh well.

LIY

Not the sub-pixel controller which only Panasonic says that they have. Fujitsu AVM has had it for at least the last 3, I guess now 4, model years.
Funny you should say that. I was looking at the Hitachi 42HDS52 at CC the other day and thought, for some reason, that I didn't see them on that set. That's an ALIS panel which is slightly different tech than their 55" eALIS panel. Try the 55" too.

I wonder if refresh rate is a factor. Have you seen a Pio that was "for sure" in 72Hz mode? [I forget if they always use 72Hz refresh or just for 480i and 3:3: pull-down.]

larry

Yoda,
I haven't seen rainbows or flashes since i quit using LSD approx. 35 years ago. Just a hint.

I have never seen this effect on any plasma and I have two of my own a 42PWD4UY and a 50PHD7UY, for what it is worth. Rainbows on a DLP is another matter.

Yoda,
I haven't seen rainbows or flashes since i quit using LSD approx. 35 years ago. Just a hint.


LOL.

>> Not the sub-pixel controller which only Panasonic says that they have.

> Fujitsu AVM has had it for at least the last 3, I guess now 4, model years.

I thought some Fujitsu plasmas used Panasonic glass?

Ahhh, but remember that the mechanism lighting the phosphors up is quite different between a CRT and plasma...Indeed; in a CRT, a single pixel is lit in a rasterized pattern, while in a plasma, pulse-width modulation is used to control AC that ionizes the plasma. We all perceive things a little differently, but Yoda1, I'm surprised that you don't actually have a worse problem with CRT flicker--even at high progressively refreshed frequencies vs. plasma, where the entire frame is lit up all at once.

Yoda1, I didn't see direct-view LCD in your OP. Perhaps you need to steer clear of any display technology that uses high-frequency light modulation to control intensity. LCD's use pulse-amplitude modulation to twist the liquid crystals. Even the "fast" ones still don't have those abrupt non-linear ramps that might be killing your eyes...

but Yoda1, I'm surprised that you don't actually have a worse problem with CRT flicker--..

Good point.

Especially after owning a plasma I find the flicker on CRTs to be just terrible. It's particularly annoying as it moves to my peripheral vision (our peripheral vision being more attuned to movement). When I'm staring at the "wall o' tube sets" at, say, a Best Buy the CRT in front of me is relatively stable looking. But all the CRTs beyond that tube set are flickering madly, like a big wall of flicker. It's interesting that Yoda doesn't seem to complain about such flicker.

Seems all our sensitivities vary.

Indeed; in a CRT, a single pixel is lit in a rasterized pattern, while in a plasma, pulse-width modulation is used to control AC that ionizes the plasma. We all perceive things a little differently, but Yoda1, I'm surprised that you don't actually have a worse problem with CRT flicker--even at high progressively refreshed frequencies vs. plasma, where the entire frame is lit up all at once.

Yoda1, I didn't see direct-view LCD in your OP. Perhaps you need to steer clear of any display technology that uses high-frequency light modulation to control intensity. LCD's use pulse-amplitude modulation to twist the liquid crystals. Even the "fast" ones still don't have those abrupt non-linear ramps that might be killing your eyes...


LCDs don't bother my eyes and neither does CRT. I honestly can't WAIT to get this plasma out of my room, it's absolutely killing my eyes - much worse than DLP, in fact. At this point, it looks like my only recourse is to get an LCD or wait for SED. Or something. :(

I want you guys to do a test for me. Walk up to a bank of plasmas in a store, or the plasma in your home, find a bright scene and wave your hand across the screen. On every single plasma that I do this, I see a trailer of colors, mostly yellow with a hint of blue and orange.

I visited two stores today - CC and 6th. Ave. - to check and see if I see yellow flashes on the plasmas there .. turns out I do. But it's harder to tell in a bright enviornment. When I'm watching my HP at night, with all the lights off, the yellow flashes attack me. They're very quick ... almost pulse-like ... and they actually hurt. Last night I had to shut the TV off just to get some relief.

...It's particularly annoying as it moves to my peripheral vision (our peripheral vision being more attuned to movement). When I'm staring at the "wall o' tube sets" at, say, a Best Buy the CRT in front of me is relatively stable looking. But all the CRTs beyond that tube set are flickering madly, like a big wall of flicker...Same here, really bad. It's like I can almost make out the vertical blanking interval in my peripheral vision. Another interesting effect is to, for lack of a better description, mechanically modulate your vision (sexy huh?), say by clearing your throat or coughing while looking at a DLP or CRT image. I first noticed this with PC CRT images years ago...pretty weird strobe-like effect.

I want you guys to do a test for me. Walk up to a bank of plasmas in a store, or the plasma in your home, find a bright scene and wave your hand across the screen...I don't see the rainbows or flashes with my plasma, although I have been able to produce the effect while watching a single-chip DLP display.

Have you looked into or tried bias lighting?

Guys!

The source of this is differential phosphor decay.

Plasmas use phosphors just like CRTs, and each color decays at a different rate with green being the slowest. As this decay, the green "hangs out" for longer than the other colors and is why you see this yellow smearing. You can also see this on CRT displays even when they are run at high refresh rates such that you don't see flicker. I see rainbows, flicker, and phosphor decay ("rainbows") on everything except 3-chip displays, and this includes plasmas and CRTs (I use a Barco CRT at 72hz progressive and still see minor "rainbows."

I hope that explains why you are seeing this and why you're not crazy. This is why good eyes aren't always a good thing ;)

I don't see the rainbows or flashes with my plasma, although I have been able to produce the effect while watching a single-chip DLP display.

Have you looked into or tried bias lighting?


What is bias lighting? I'm interested! :)

What is bias lighting? I'm interested! :)

I'll leave it to somebody more knowledgeable than me to provide an explanation - but here's a whole thread on it:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=451527

I also see the yellow flashes on my Panasonic plasma (42PWD6 - ISF calibrated). It's usually on fast movement or if I move my eyes quickly to look at another part of the screen. A couple of hours viewing will give me a headache. I know someone else at another Forum who has a similar problem. We both wear contact lenses so wonder if that's a factor to consider. I don't get this with LCD TV's or PJ's. Not tried a DLP TV or PJ as yet.

I also see the yellow flashes on my Panasonic plasma (42PWD6 - ISF calibrated). It's usually on fast movement or if I move my eyes quickly to look at another part of the screen. A couple of hours viewing will give me a headache. I know someone else at another Forum who has a similar problem. We both wear contact lenses so wonder if that's a factor to consider. I don't get this with LCD TV's or PJ's. Not tried a DLP TV or PJ as yet.

I'm also seeing multicolored flashes, now - not just yellow. :(

I think the rainbows on DLP are even more managable.

Would something like the ambient light maganvox (or whatever brand makes it) help with the yellowish hue? It seems that the brightness is having an impact on your ability to process really light, or white color, maybe the lessening of the degree of change from the actual set to the background would be use for you. As you noted, you didn't notice the effect nearly as much in a more well lite enviroment. I could be really off, but I think it would help.

Yes, viewing in a brighter environment or with backlighting will help minimize the bother of this effect if you see it.

>> Not the sub-pixel controller which only Panasonic says that they have.

> Fujitsu AVM has had it for at least the last 3, I guess now 4, model years.

I thought some Fujitsu plasmas used Panasonic glass?They do, but controlling the color value of each sub pixel (R, G, and B values) is software. Way back when somebody explained sub pixel control it didn't seem to be hardware related. It's possible that what Panny claims as sub pixel control is not the same as what the AVM does.

larry

What is bias lighting? I'm interested! :)
Linky (http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lume.htm). Disclosure: I am not affiliated with them, although I do use their product. :D

For those of you that have seen it, when you do the hand waving test, is your hand closer to your eyes or the display? Man, I spent 20 min in a store one day doing the moving head test (peripheral vision), and I just couldn't see this. People were certainly looking at me funny though! 'Course, maybe it's a good thing I haven't been able to see this yet. :)

For those of you that have seen it, when you do the hand waving test, is your hand closer to your eyes or the display? Man, I spent 20 min in a store one day doing the moving head test (peripheral vision), and I just couldn't see this. People were certainly looking at me funny though! 'Course, maybe it's a good thing I haven't been able to see this yet. :)For me and DLP's, I'm usually at a normal viewing distance for the hand waving test, so my hand is definitely closer to my eyes. But an even more effective way to draw attention to yourself is to move a little closer than normal viewing distance and rotate your head left-to-right and back again while trying to keep your vision focused straight ahead. When I do this, as my field of vision passes over a color wheeled DLP display, it's rainbow city. If you mumble to yourself while doing this, people will tend to slowly move away and leave you alone.

Yoda - I feel your pain, because I also see yellow flashes on high contrast material on my new TH-50PHD8UK.

Luckily most of my viewing is live sports (bright, not contrasty), where the flashes appear extremely rarely.

But the darker movies - the flashes make them pretty much unwatchable for me (Pirates of the Carribbean in HD - case in point).

Sucks to be me - I saw the same thing on DLP.

Returning the set is out of the question - too much hassle, and there is nothing else out there I really like.

I noticed I see much fewer flashes when I put circular polarized filters from my cameras in front of my eyes when watching high contrast material.

Don't know why, perhaps because of less contrast. So now I am considering getting light gray polarized prescription eyeglasses to watch movies on my plasma - seriously.

For those of you that have seen it, when you do the hand waving test, is your hand closer to your eyes or the display? Man, I spent 20 min in a store one day doing the moving head test (peripheral vision), and I just couldn't see this. People were certainly looking at me funny though! 'Course, maybe it's a good thing I haven't been able to see this yet. :)

You have to get close to the plasma for an effective hand-waving test. I look around first .. make sure no one is watching me and then start the test. Go up to the plasma - very close, now - and wave your hand back and forth, you should be able to see a trail of colors. FWIW, I went to Best Buy today, checked out some of their plasmas and noticed that the Philips didn't seem to bother me all that much. I don't think it had anything to do with ambligiht 'cause the showroom is really bright, in effect rendering the ambilight useless (boy those BB guys are dense).

Only thing is, I hate those Philips plasmas, they have weird clayface issues.

Yoda - I feel your pain, because I also see yellow flashes on high contrast material on my new TH-50PHD8UK.

Luckily most of my viewing is live sports (bright, not contrasty), where the flashes appear extremely rarely.

But the darker movies - the flashes make them pretty much unwatchable for me (Pirates of the Carribbean in HD - case in point).

Sucks to be me - I saw the same thing on DLP.

Returning the set is out of the question - too much hassle, and there is nothing else out there I really like.

I noticed I see much fewer flashes when I put circular polarized filters from my cameras in front of my eyes when watching high contrast material.

Don't know why, perhaps because of less contrast. So now I am considering getting light gray polarized prescription eyeglasses to watch movies on my plasma - seriously.

Whoa, really? Maybe I should try that. I'd rather not send this thing back.

I also don't really like anything else out there, with the exception of Mitsu 1080P DLP (out of the question due to rainbows) and some other plasmas, like Pio and Fujitsu ... i actually saw the new Mitsubishi at a local Mom'n Pop shop the other day .. very nice PQ ... wonderfully balanced .. blacks are ok, nowhere near as good as the Panny or Pio, though. Maybe I should try this eyeglasses thing. You think they'll work? I'm totally up to suggestions and will try anything to watch plasma .. there's simply nothing else out there right now that compares.

Whoa, really? Maybe I should try that. I'd rather not send this thing back. :(

Dude - do the following:

Pick a DVD that is Black and White and contrasty - I picked The Saragossa Manuscript, a fairly obscure movie, but you can pick any movie that gives you flashes.

I unscrewed neutral polarizer filters from my two cameras and stuffed them between my eyes and my eyeglasses. Of course neutral polarizers being a little dark everything made everything a bit darker, but I could hardly see a flash even if I shook my head. I could see tons of flashes without polarizers. So, perhaps getting polarized eyeglass lenses would do the trick - I have no idea.

But I am quite desperate - I really don't want to return the set.

I work at a place that has multiple plasma displays. All are Panasonic HD6UY and 7UY series except for one display which is a Philips 32FD9954 from several years ago. I had a DVD which contained Black images and titles which panned across a pure white background. The material was computer generated graphics which resulted in a very steppy-looking pan. On a normal interlaced CRT display, this DVD played flawlessly. However, on the Panasonic 42 and 50 inch displays we could see obvious yellow edges on the black objects that panned rapidly across the screen. Regardless of progressive or interlaced DVD playback, and regardless of any contrast or menu setting on the Panasonics, the artifact remained. We tried the same test on our Philips display and and were surprised to see that there were no colored edges - only black objects moving on a white background as it should be. We are not sure why this is, but the effect on the Panasonics was so obvious, anybody who looked at it could see the yellow. It was not limited to those with visual sensitivities. We put the DVD into variable speed slo-mo on the Panasonic plasmas and observed the problem is speed/response related. As the playback speed was increased from still frame ( no visible yellow), the yellow edge appeared and gradually increased in width as our variable speed increased. It almost appears that the blue phosphors might have a slower resonse time than the red and green. There also appears to be a sequence to the way the phosphors are refreshed in that even with a stationary image on the screen, panning your eyes with your hand or fingers in between you and the screen sometimes allows you to see a rainbow-like effect similar to what the moving images create. Very weird, but the Philips doesn't do that. Used the same DVD and identical Panasonic DVD players for the testing. Just wanted to pass this on to let you know others see it. It is real, but not all plasmas create images in exactly the same way! By the way, an LCD television exibited a little motion blur with the test material but exibited no color edges.

VidRX - thanks for confirming.

I cannot even fathom how other people CANNOT see that artifact on their 8UKs, but I guess I (and a handful of others) are just unlucky. I see the trailing yellow edges even in HD sometimes (for example when football player's white helmet is slowly moving against the background).

I am not sure if I would see it on other plasmas.

But if my idea of neutral light grey polarized prescription eyeglasses does not work I may have to get rid of my TH-50PHD8UK.

Given the current shortage this might not be a problem.

I work at a place that has multiple plasma displays. All are Panasonic HD6UY and 7UY series except for one display which is a Philips 32FD9954 from several years ago. I had a DVD which contained Black images and titles which panned across a pure white background. The material was computer generated graphics which resulted in a very steppy-looking pan. On a normal interlaced CRT display, this DVD played flawlessly. However, on the Panasonic 42 and 50 inch displays we could see obvious yellow edges on the black objects that panned rapidly across the screen. Regardless of progressive or interlaced DVD playback, and regardless of any contrast or menu setting on the Panasonics, the artifact remained. We tried the same test on our Philips display and and were surprised to see that there were no colored edges - only black objects moving on a white background as it should be. We are not sure why this is, but the effect on the Panasonics was so obvious, anybody who looked at it could see the yellow. It was not limited to those with visual sensitivities. We put the DVD into variable speed slo-mo on the Panasonic plasmas and observed the problem is speed/response related. As the playback speed was increased from still frame ( no visible yellow), the yellow edge appeared and gradually increased in width as our variable speed increased. It almost appears that the blue phosphors might have a slower resonse time than the red and green. There also appears to be a sequence to the way the phosphors are refreshed in that even with a stationary image on the screen, panning your eyes with your hand or fingers in between you and the screen sometimes allows you to see a rainbow-like effect similar to what the moving images create. Very weird, but the Philips doesn't do that. Used the same DVD and identical Panasonic DVD players for the testing. Just wanted to pass this on to let you know others see it. It is real, but not all plasmas create images in exactly the same way! By the way, an LCD television exibited a little motion blur with the test material but exibited no color edges.


Wow. This is very interesting, and an almost exact description of what I'm seeing. I, too, don't understand how people do not see this on their Panny PDPs.

I may have to get a Philips plasma, tweak it out at home and see if I can grow to like it. It's well-priced and has a lot of inputs/connectivity.

I just saw some ninja-looking dudes wearing white robes in a TV commercial on the 42 Panasonic plasma and I saw the yellow fringing on the edges of the robes as they moved rapidly against the background. It's there if you know what to look for (and if you WANT to see it)!

I just saw some ninja-looking dudes wearing white robes in a TV commercial on the 42 Panasonic plasma and I saw the yellow fringing on the edges of the robes as they moved rapidly against the background. It's there if you know what to look for (and if you WANT to see it)!

Trust me, I have no choice in the matter. I see it without fail.

R Harkness, calling R Harkness. We would like to hear from you . . . .

How far from the display are you when you see this? Is there a distance from the screen that it disappears. I have never seen it and have had a 42PWD4UY for four years and a 50PHD7UY for over a year. At least not from normal viewing distance.

How far from the display are you when you see this? Is there a distance from the screen that it disappears. I have never seen it and have had a 42PWD4UY for four years and a 50PHD7UY for over a year. At least not from normal viewing distance.

JWhip - I sit about 8 feet from the display. The flashes and trailings are still there when I get closer (obviously). I have not tried to get farther away because it is not an acceptable solution for me.

The only thing that worked so far and reduced the flashes to almost nothing was looking through polarizing filters I took off my cameras. Their light transmission is about 30%, though, so I think I was just reducing the flashes by 70%.

Still - better than nothing.

I recently got a 42" panny 8UK (commercial) ED panel. I love the set, after tweaking it a little, the picture is simply stunning. However, I am noticing rainbows which in theory shouldnt happen with anything but DLP sets. This is really strange to me considering the way plasma works (unless ther'es some miniscule delay between the RGB fires). This is mostly noticeable in B&W or pure White areas. It's not very blatant or objectionable like 1st gen DLP projectors, but it is noticeable.
Does anyone else see these or is this just me?

Strange indeed as I do not see them and hope I continue to not see them. Have you had the set calibrated? I sit 10 feet away and my set was calibated in Cinema mode with a normal color setting by Greg Loewen. Perhaps this will help. If you ever get to the Philly area, you can always check mine to see if you can see them.

I recently got a 42" panny 8UK (commercial) ED panel. I love the set, after tweaking it a little, the picture is simply stunning. However, I am noticing rainbows which in theory shouldnt happen with anything but DLP sets. This is really strange to me considering the way plasma works (unless ther'es some miniscule delay between the RGB fires). This is mostly noticeable in B&W or pure White areas. It's not very blatant or objectionable like 1st gen DLP projectors, but it is noticeable.
Does anyone else see these or is this just me?

I'm in the same boat as you - however - it's not just during bright white scenes that I see yellow flashes or rainbows - the effect is actually sometimes worse during dark scenes. For instance, I was watching Rome the other night and in many of the night scenes, characters walk around with torches that, whenever they're moving around, emit a lot of yellow flashing pulses ... this is kind of the same thing that was described above ... when objects move across the screen, there's this very odd yellow fringing that occurs ... sometimes they seem like flashes because the movement is so quick.

Also, I was playing the snow map online on Halo 2 the other day .... there's a lot of white on that whole map .. if you move your character's POV around, you will noticed MAJOR yellow fringing around white objects on that level ... the portals on the map are another place where this effect occurs as well.

Btw, I think I'm gonna pick up a Philips plasma in a couple days and see what happens. I'm not ready to give up on the technology just yet.

Hey,

If I tried out an ED plasma I'd most likely see the same things, right?

I'm curious if the original poster wears eyeglasses? I know from experience that some forms of plastic/acrylic eyeglass material will cause what is called chromatic abberation. If, while watching any type of TV picture, the wearer turns his head just a bit left or right of center, a reddish line can be seen on the edges of objects. I have a plasma TV screen and never see rainbows.

I was thinking something similar but different. I have anti-reflective coatings on my glasses, but I haven't seen this effect yet. But I do need to do more testing.

Saw the Philips today. It does the same thing as the Panasonic and has pretty crummy PQ, to boot.

I think I'm gonna have to settle for the Sony XBR 960.

Saw the Philips today. It does the same thing as the Panasonic and has pretty crummy PQ, to boot.

I think I'm gonna have to settle for the Sony XBR 960.
If the Philips had a crummy picture quality it was a bad feed. I own one and the picture quality is stunning to boot. :) We did discuss signal feeds recently didnt we Yoda1?

I recently got a Panasonic TH-50PX500U and see these yellow flashes on high contrast scenes, too. It's really apparent but I'm learing to live with it. I DO wear glasses and will check to see if it is any less apparent without them (if I can even SEE the screen without them!). But, if it's ineven phosphor decay, taking off glasses won't do a thing.

This may sound even more crazy, but, I have also seen instances where I can see that every other scan line is off, when my eyes pan from one side of the screen to the other quickly. I THINK it onlyhappens on cable 1080i sources (via CableCard), but I haven't done enough experimenting to know for sure. Maybe it's really a program source/compression artifact of some sort (?). I think I'm sensitive to this effect for some reason - the new LED car taillights really annoy me at night. I see ROWS of them when a car is far ahead of me.

I think I'm sensitive to this effect for some reason - the new LED car taillights really annoy me at night. I see ROWS of them when a car is far ahead of me.

That's quite possible. This drives me nuts too, LEDs can't really vary their brightness, so they basically flash on/off really fast to dim, so when people aren't stepping on their brakes they are usually just flashing really fast, and if you move your eyes you can see it kind of streak dots as it flashes because it's not a steay source. Very odd effect, and it is pretty distracting sometimes because you can mistake them for flashing lights, etc.

I feel ya, kmarsh.

I've had my Panny TH-50PHD8UK for a few months now and still see flashes on high contrast material and yellow trailings after moving white objects. Sucks to be me - I believe the vast majority of folks who have plasmas don't see that.

Oh well - it's too much trouble to try and sell the set now. I hope that in a few years there will be a digital display technology which I will be able to enjoy without annoying artifacts.

I've always noticed a rainbow effect on plasmas, especially scanning quickly with my eyes side to side. For me, it is way less apparent and distracting than DLP displays, and I'd rather live with them than the non existant black levels of LCD monitors. Now image retention is something that I cannot live with, but that's for another thread.

I'm curious if the original poster wears eyeglasses? I know from experience that some forms of plastic/acrylic eyeglass material will cause what is called chromatic abberation. If, while watching any type of TV picture, the wearer turns his head just a bit left or right of center, a reddish line can be seen on the edges of objects. I have a plasma TV screen and never see rainbows.

i actually do wear glasses so i'll try to see if taking them off will take care of the rainbows but it seems odd that it would

i actually do wear glasses so i'll try to see if taking them off will take care of the rainbows but it seems odd that it would

I tried this and it didn't make a difference for me.

I see also yellow flashes with a slight green light on my Pany, really obvious in Sin City. I wonder if there's something to do or if it's better to take it easy and try to get used ? I imagine if I change my plasma, I'll see the same thing again. According to what I see, on the Pany it seems that the 3 phosphors don't switch off at the same speed : blue>red>green. When we start from a white pixel, the blue first decrease, giving a yellow remaining light (red + green still deliver their color), then the red decrease giving the final greenish light. As I saw in another post, maybe it's the Pana subpixel management that make worse the native difference of phosphor's decay / remanence.

i actually do wear glasses so i'll try to see if taking them off will take care of the rainbows but it seems odd that it would


I (the original poster) do not wear glasses. ;)

That's quite possible. This drives me nuts too, LEDs can't really vary their brightness, so they basically flash on/off really fast to dim, so when people aren't stepping on their brakes they are usually just flashing really fast, and if you move your eyes you can see it kind of streak dots as it flashes because it's not a steay source. Very odd effect, and it is pretty distracting sometimes because you can mistake them for flashing lights, etc.


Wow. I just noticed this the other night too. I didn't know they were LED brake lights, though. I saw rows upon rows of them as well. Weeiiiird.

In the service menu 1 of the PX50, there's a test patern, and the ultimate test is a white bar crossing the screen at low speed. It should be sharp, but on the pana one side lack of sharpness and on the other there's a yellow border that can be seen clearly. During action in a picture, if a clear object cross the screen rapidly with a dark background, there's also this yellow border behind the moving object, and it the speed is high enough, it appears as a yellow "flash". It's really anoying and the people who see it don't dream or have eye problem !

On the europeen model to acces the menu service and test patern :

Bass should be at max
treble should be min
Then select channel 99 (TV mode)
Then press "index" on the remote and -/v on the TV at the same time
The service menu 1 appear
Then press green on the remote to see the different pages untill "test patern" page
Then on the test patern page press Blue on the remote to see the diferent tests, the last one is the white bar.
To exit press "exit" on the remote

After you need to adjust again brightness and contrast that have came back to factory default (channels are still there).

Don't know if it's the same for US model, but this test patern shows clearly where does the problem comes from.
It seems that the blue sub-pixel switch on and off more rapidly than the two others

It seems that the blue sub-pixel switch on and off more rapidly than the two othersYes, that's exactly what I've found with my TH-50PHD8UK. I suspected these "rainbows" were really a pixel response time issue, since what I was seeing was very similar to LCD pixel response issues.

Using the GUN setting in my 8UK's service menu I too can demonstrate this clearly given any appropriate scene, in my case a 3D video game with a free-look camera. Blue responds very quickly, Red is somewhat slower, and on my set Green is surprisingly slow compared with the other 2.

The effect is typically a blurry, yellow smear and not a rainbow at all. It doesn't have anything to do with wearing glasses or having particularly acute vision - the TV is physically displaying yellow-hued pixels for visible lengths of time.

When a pixel is White (R=255, G=255 B=255) and is instructed to turn Black (R=0 G=0 B=0), B reacts near instantly, whereas R and G have visible decay times. During this time, while R and G are still being output on the screen in the absense of B, and slightly dominated by the slower G, a yellowish hue is produced somewhere in the neighborhood of this forum's post text (but a tad more greenish-sikly yellow, like THIS)

I totaly agree with the 3 sub pixels different decay time, it explain very well the effect noticed in Pany panel. I also noticed it on new Pio panels and JVC ones but not on Hitachi's panels. Don't know if it's a choice from Panasonic in order to produce something like a 3D effect or if it's an issue of plasma technology, but it's clear that It should be tecnicaly possible to introduce a delay on the Blue sub pixel in order to make it react like the two others (Green and Red are not so different). Maybe there's something appropriate in the service menu?
It's a general issue on all Pana plasmas it has been noticed on all panels, 37, 42 and 50 inches

The effect can bee see very clearly in Sin City, 30 min 26 sec (the scene after Marv speaking alone under the rain), around the shape of the girls: In this scene the traveling is from right to left so the yellow-greenish (red an green sub pixels remanence) appears on the side of the bright border where the pixels have to shut down to black.


http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/1477/dsc01513bis4xw.jpg

That's quite possible. This drives me nuts too, LEDs can't really vary their brightness, so they basically flash on/off really fast to dim, so when people aren't stepping on their brakes they are usually just flashing really fast, and if you move your eyes you can see it kind of streak dots as it flashes because it's not a steay source. Very odd effect, and it is pretty distracting sometimes because you can mistake them for flashing lights, etc.


Ooohhh...so that's what is happening!

I thought I was starting to go nuts. I've started noticing the trails too. Especially here in Toronto I noticed the buses have a new-looking rear lights that, when my eyes scan past them, they break up into "trails" in my vision. I had no idea they might be LED lights.

As far as the Panny, it's just so weird: I am super sensitive to rainbows on all DLPs (I swear I've even seen some problems on the 3 Chip projectors, which we discussed in the projector forum and it looks like there is some technical basis for seeing them) , trails on LCD and even flicker on CRTs (drives me nuts).

So why don't I ever see the flashes on the new Panny plasmas? I've looked and looked. Given how familiar I am with seeing rainbows on high-contrast scenes on DLPs, I know exactly when to look for them on and how to "induce" them with my eye movements. But I just can't see the flashes on the Panny.

Very weird.

So why don't I ever see the flashes on the new Panny plasmas? I've looked and looked.I'd wonder if it has to do with calibration: too much R / G drive on the sets of people seeing it? Do we prefer our sets in such a way with brightness/blacklevel combined that exaggerates this effect? My wife can see the effect when I'm purposefully making it happen with the various GUN settings, and she can see the effect with video games, but then claims to not see the effect all during the past 2 movies we've watched (the first 2 LoTR movies, wide/extend ed.). However the amount of yellow & sometimes red flashing I've seen in those 2 movies thus far has been fairly distracting and is definately noticeable.

I'm hoping I can play with all the settings, perhaps RGB gain/cutoff as well, to somehow lessen it's effect, but I'm not too optimistic that'll work while still maintaining an acceptably colored / brightened / contrasted picture.

I noticed this years ago on my first plasma a 37pw5 . It annoyed me too but over the next few weeks it seemed to calm down as phosphor bedded in to the extent that it was unobjectionable a month later . I could still see it very slightly if I rapidly moved my eyes around the screen but in normal viewing it wasn't visible.

I just took delivery of a 42PHD8 and see the same phenomenon again , I fully expect it to calm down after a months use or so.

I also see similar artifacts on CRTs and CRT projectors and I refuse point blank to watch any single chip dlp device.

Wow this is quite interesting...so...well...is there any fix for this? Has this been getting better with each generation of plasmas? Is this something that some brands suffer from more than others?

I took a look at the new Panny's at CC the other day, and couldn't seem to see the yellow flashes I've noticed in the past. It probably had something to do with the lighting (if i had the set at home, lights off, totally dark I'm sure I'd see them again).

I just might have to check 'em out again tomorrow. The one thing that I do notice, and can ALWAYS make happen is, if I move my eyes from side to side really fast, I can definitely see a strange multicolored trail. If I do this with my CRT, I see nothing. But I just noticed that I see these color trails on traditional rear-projection CRTs at my dads' house the other day too.

I know, it's all so very strange. But all so very irritating too.

Shopping for TVs is FUN! .....

Could you post a picture of your "rainbow effect" so we can see exactly what you're talking about?

It's a temporal artifact, so it would be difficult to capture on camera unless you shook the camera around, and even then it would be difficult to capture.

Sorry, that was my lame attempt at a joke. Heck, I didn't even realize this thread had 2 pages!

Make that THREE pages!

I really don't understand your joke then.

damn damn damn DAMN, why do I learn these things AFTER I buy the damn product

so I bought the latest Panasonic PX60U & the yellow afterimage is awful
it is especially noticeable in videogame.

I have been playing Oblivion & Call Of Duty & whenever I move the camera the picture goes to hell, this is very sad considering this ghosting like effect is one of the number one reasons people recommend Plasma over LCD panels

anyone know if there has been any new Plasma panels that fixed this problem?

Dunno. But don't think so. I believe what we're seeing is inherent to the technology. I notice it on every single plasma display I come across in stores, now. Very disappointing 'cause Plasma is the $h1t.

this suck donkey balls. I notice the same thing. I first noticed it at BB when they were playing a basketball game and whenever the camera panned I could see yellow trails on the bodies of the black dudes. White dudes didn't have any trails :p I think this has to due with light or dark against an opposite background. So trails whould show up on the white dudes if the court was darker coloured.

Now, how bad is this for gaming. I'm a big gamer, so how often whould I notice this probelm? Do you see trails on most games all the time, or is just occasionly. Also, I have noticed green trails on my CRT RPTV on certain games. COD2 it is very noticable.

... LEDs can't really vary their brightness, so they basically flash on/off really fast to dim

Not true. There's nothing inherent with LEDs that prevents them from varying their brightness. There may or may not be a limitation in their usage/implementation in automobile brakelights, but it's not a limitation of LEDs themselves.

Not true. There's nothing inherent with LEDs that prevents them from varying their brightness. There may or may not be a limitation in their usage/implementation in automobile brakelights, but it's not a limitation of LEDs themselves.

I don't know much about LEDs, but my understanding was that they couldn't do that. In any case, PDM/PWM is how they are dimmed in most all applications I've seen.

Well....I hooked up my laptop to my 500u plasma and since making some adjustments with dot crawl and such (didn't have much effect) I was ok with the image I was getting.
I disconnected the laptop and went back to SD and right away, I noticed a PQ problem. After hyperventilating a little :eek: , I tweaked the settings to see if I just had changed some setting to cause it. Nope, all inputs are showing this problem. I almost can see a dithering problem along with what I would call halos around some forground objects.
:eek:

I know, it's all so very strange. But all so very irritating too.

Shopping for TVs is FUN! .....
OK, Are you viewing an LCD Computer Monitor as you communicate with us?

Do you see rainbows even on an LCD Flat Panel connected to a PC?

If not then why not use an LCD FP - it's transmissive light - I don't see how it would display rainbows.

Sounds like an X-Files issue - have you been abducted lately by one of those things with flashing lights up yonder? ;)

OK, Are you viewing an LCD Computer Monitor as you communicate with us?

Do you see rainbows even on an LCD Flat Panel connected to a PC?

If not then why not use an LCD FP - it's transmissive light - I don't see how it would display rainbows.

Sounds like an X-Files issue - have you been abducted lately by one of those things with flashing lights up yonder? ;)

Nope. LCD and Direct-View CRTs are two of the three displays where I don't see rainbows of any kind. Add RP LCD and RP CRT to that list. I just have problems with DLP and Plasma. My next set will most likely be a 1080p LCD - flaws 'n all.

Yeah, know what ya mean....I see this dang rainbow stuff on my plasma too... :confused:

Any chance its my glasses:
http://bwclark.smugmug.com/photos/67791576-M.jpg

Yoda1 might be spiderman!

I saw rainbows all over my pioneer 5060 which eventually led me to return it in exchange for a 46'' samsung 469D LCD. It's really a shame - I thought the set produced and incredible picture, but the yellow trails were very distracting with all source content.

I have seen rainbows on DLP, Rear Projection CRT, and Plasma - although the colors and extent of the rainbows varied between displays. To date I have not seen rainbows on any direct view crt's or LCD's.

I got a small video on my cell phone of what I was viewing seen here:
Rainbow Video (http://141.161.196.39/~djb29/rainbow.3g2)

Doug

have you guy's found any "pots of gold" yet? :p

Now, how bad is this for gaming. I'm a big gamer, so how often whould I notice this probelm? Do you see trails on most games all the time, or is just occasionly. Also, I have noticed green trails on my CRT RPTV on certain games. COD2 it is very noticable.


It seems the worse with games that have a 3D camera, it not only leaves yellow trails, but it can smears the entire picture, making everything look extremely blurry.

It tested the worst on Kameo on the Xbox 360, as that seems to have very vibrant colors & that really amplifies the effect.

I'm going to test this side by side with my Sharp LCD Aquos & see which has the less noticeable trail effect, if I can't get a decent setting for either then I dumping both & getting the Sony 34" CRT at Circuit City.

let me know how the Aquos compares to the Plasma. This is really annoying that all these displays have so many problems.

I heard that Leonardo Da Vinci had plans for a TV and they built it and it had rainbows!

Jesse Jackson said he believed in Rainbow TVs.

I believe in my own dreams and can describe them. Is that the way it works for the people who see Rainbows?

I heard that Leonardo Da Vinci had plans for a TV and they built it and it had rainbows!

Jesse Jackson said he believed in Rainbow TVs.

I believe in my own dreams and can describe them. Is that the way it works for the people who see Rainbows?

Be smug and sarcastic all you want. There's still no denying that these things ARE there, and people are seeing them. Count yourself lucky that you don't.

It's nice to feel "lucky". Now, if I could only win that Florida Rainbow Lotto!:D

Nope. LCD and Direct-View CRTs are two of the three displays where I don't see rainbows of any kind. Add RP LCD and RP CRT to that list. I just have problems with DLP and Plasma. My next set will most likely be a 1080p LCD - flaws 'n all.

I see them on CRTs.

The most stable displays I've encountered are 3-chip LCD and LCOS displays. I would include 3-chip DLPs, although I have heard one or two people report seeing rainbows on those, and they technically should be susceptible in a theoretical sense because it's still a PWM/PDM display. But I'm very sensitive to rainbow artifacts and have not seen anything like that on a 3-chip DLP, so I would include 3-chip DLP as pretty much rainbow immune and in any case not fatiguing.

Can people see rainbows on etch-a-sketches?

I remember one post where the individual said he could see rainbows on his PDP while looking through his fingers and darting his eyes back & forth! :eek:

you would not see rainbows on etch-a-sketches.

Yeah, know what ya mean....I see this dang rainbow stuff on my plasma too... :confused:

Any chance its my glasses:
http://bwclark.smugmug.com/photos/67791576-M.jpg


This is the funniest thing I have seen all day. It made me laugh out loud at work :D

If a display acused of having rainbows depicted a rainbow--would you see two rainbows?

Who knows--maybe if you got people to believe that some displays would show two rainbows you'd really inherit the pot of gold at the end of them!

let me know how the Aquos compares to the Plasma. This is really annoying that all these displays have so many problems.

...a little better
Ghosting on the Aquas is less prominent then the rainbows on the Plasma.
I still can't believe people haven't complained about the rainbows more then ghosting on LCD panels since it actually looks worse.
Maybe it was because the older LCD models had the high 50ms response times.

The Aquos also kicks the hell out of Panny PDP in colors & resolution.
Too bad the Aquos loses a lot of details in all the dark scenes, or I would have kept it :(

I am burnt out with all these problems, I'm getting the Sony 34" HD widescreen CRT & will wait till next year to get a flat panel when they sort out these problems with newer technology.

I can't believe that people do not see the trails on plasma's. Are you all freaking blind! Granted it's not always visable. I would say that durring normal viewing it does not come up that often, but durring sports or video games it's very noticable. Watch any hockey game and watch when the camera quickly pans from one side to the other. You will see trails on all dark colours against the white ice. It's very noticable. Every plasma I've seen has it. Rainbows on plasma's is not a big issue and I almsot never notice it, but the trails anyone can see. The trails are yellow or green. So you can make fun of the people on this thread all you wan't but the trails are there and you just don't see them. It's not our fault that our eyes are better then yours. My friend who works at BB never noticed the trails. When I pointed it out to him durring a basketball game, he couldn't believe that he never noticed it before. Everytime I point it out to someone they always see it.

I can't believe people rag on LCD for motion blur, when plasma is worse! What whould you rather have a slight blur or a colured trail?

Maybe the people who advocate "only reality of the object viewed" will remove the windshields from thier cars and have a complete vacuum between whatever objects they're viewing and their eyes.

Also command the sun to be putting out light at 6500K.

Also command all fences to be torn down behind home plate at baseball stadiums.

While you're at it BRAND all people who don't see every bit of visual information EXACTLY the way that you do to be unacceptable.

Define anybody who sees things you don't see on technologies you deem acceptable to be unacceptable.

In other words--GO FLOAT YOUR OWN BOAT!

If the world is as blind as you think then SUFFER for the rest of your life seeing things that bother you.

At least you'll know that you're right!

This could be my opinion but on the other hand I could be on drugs and there might be so many rainbows in my vision that I'm not stating what I know to be reality!

By the Way: I onced lived in Hawaii where rainbows were very common. I LOVE RAINBOWS!

Peace!

Artwood, that was very moving. Honestly, you are a very good writer, and I respect that. I am only stating that trails exist on plasmas and are visable. If you have a plasma yourself then please watch a sporting event and I guarantee you that you will see trails. I currently work for costco and when people ask me what is the best display to buy right now. I tell them to go for a good plasma like a Panny, Pio, NEC, Fugitsu, etc. because I know that most people will be very happy with a plasma. But, that doesn't stop the fact that Videophiles do notice things that the average person may not. I just don't appreciate people coming on a thread and making fun of others . Basically implying that they are seeing things. Trails are very easy to see. They are there, and I think that the problem should be addressed. If you don't see them, then thats good for you because once you do, you will always notice them.

I can't believe that people do not see the trails on plasma's. Are you all freaking blind!

Dude, it's user dependent. I've had my plasma for 3 months now. Don't see them. Before I bought, I spent 30 min at a showroom once doing all the tricks I've seen mentioned here to produce them. The finger trick :), moving my head back and forth, etc. (Yes, more than one person looked strangely at me wondering what the heck I was doing.) I simply don't see them. I do believe it exists, but maybe I am lucky that I don't see it.

But really conan48, you have to get yourself a good dose of the funny spirits when you come on the forum singing like John Sebastian..."I've got rainbows all over my shoes". Funny topic, what can I say. Levity can be a good thing.:D

For the most part I am having problems with motion trails and not rainbows. There are no crazy tricks that have to be performed to see trails. You don't have to dart your eyes back and forth and wave your hand in front of the plasma. Trails are just that. It's a pysical trail that is on the screen for as long as the movement lasts. The easiest way to see it is with games or Sports. I know I've said this but, put on any hockey game and right when the camera pans (especially if the camera moves in the opposite direction of the players) look at the edges of the players and you will notice a coloured smear, or trail following them. It's usually green or yellow. It's not an optical illusion, there is a trail and it can be on the screen for quite some time.

Motion trails are probably source depedent. I see this too ... via my overly compressed SD satellite feed from Dish. I do *not* see this with DVDs.

I can't believe that people do not see the trails on plasma's. Are you all freaking blind! Granted it's not always visable. I would say that durring normal viewing it does not come up that often, but durring sports or video games it's very noticable.

Motion artifacts? Yea, I've seen them on plasmas. I've seen them on LCDs. I also see pixelation with fireworks and similar scenes on all types of displays. How do you know that what you're seeing isn't related to the source and compression artifacts and not the display? I'll bet that where the problem is. I suspect you're placing the blame for what you're seeing in the wrong place. It's not the plasma. And rainbows on plasmas? Sorry, I've never seen one on my Fujitsu. On, DLPs, absolutely. But not on a plasma. And I'm not yet blind.

I can't believe that people do not see the trails on plasma's. Are you all freaking blind! Granted it's not always visable. I would say that durring normal viewing it does not come up that often, but durring sports or video games it's very noticable. Watch any hockey game and watch when the camera quickly pans from one side to the other. You will see trails on all dark colours against the white ice. It's very noticable.


I'm a critical viewer. I'm extremely sensitive to CRT flicker and to DLP rainows. I can't take watching DLPs. I was even one of the people reporting rainbow "like" image break up when viewing 3 chip DLPs. So I'm quite sensitive to those types of artifacts.

As I wrote earlier, I've never seen a rainbow on a plasma. Four years of watching the hockey season on my plasma and I've never seen a rainbow flash.

In fact, I've been on this forum since 2001 and this rainbows-on-plasmas thing is quite a new phenomenon here. I'm not sure, but I think Yoda was the first I've ever seen report it. And I've never, ever read a professional review of a plasma that reported such flashes.

So this does seem pretty user dependant, and that someone doesn't see them doesn't mean they aren't careful or critical viewers.

Ok. Forget the rainbow flashs. I don't see flashs either. I'm talking about colored motion trails, and It's visible on every source. Very, very easy to see on a videogame system. Simply get a FPS game where you have control of the camera and move it quickly. You will see coloured motion trails. Yellow or green. It's also very noticalbe on sports, and really any scene that has a panning shot. It's visable on HD, SD, DVD, XBOX 360, etc. If any of you guys live near Toronto, GTA area, come by my Costco and I will personally show you the problem on every plasma we have. I have shown this to many people and everyone I have pointed it out to see's it.

It's not hard to see. That's why I find it funny that more people don't notice it. Anyway, maybe not ALL plasma's suffer from this problem but many do. The Panny and Pio have it for sure as those were the plasmas I was considering and noticed it. After I point it out they find it very obvious, where beforehand they never noticed it. We get thousands of people everyday at Costco, so I deal with many people. I don't go around showing it to everyone who's interested in a Plasma, but once in a while I point it out
And it's not our feed and this is visible at BB, The Brick, and Futureshop, etc.

I am pretty picky with displays and I sure haven't noticed what you are talking about on a plasma. :confused:
Sometimes you can see very small shadows around objects but that is about as bad as it gets on plasma.

Motion trails are probably source depedent. I see this too ... via my overly compressed SD satellite feed from Dish. I do *not* see this with DVDs.

Display motion trails if caused by phoshpor decay will not be source dependant since it is a physical attribute specific to the display. You may be confusing other artifacts for phosphor-decay trails (which appear greenish).

Ok. Forget the rainbow flashs. I don't see flashs either. I'm talking about colored motion trails, and It's visible on every source. Very, very easy to see on a videogame system. Simply get a FPS game where you have control of the camera and move it quickly. You will see coloured motion trails. Yellow or green. It's also very noticalbe on sports, and really any scene that has a panning shot. It's visable on HD, SD, DVD, XBOX 360, etc. If any of you guys live near Toronto, GTA area, come by my Costco and I will personally show you the problem on every plasma we have. I have shown this to many people and everyone I have pointed it out to see's it.

It's not hard to see. That's why I find it funny that more people don't notice it. Anyway, maybe not ALL plasma's suffer from this problem but many do. The Panny and Pio have it for sure as those were the plasmas I was considering and noticed it. After I point it out they find it very obvious, where beforehand they never noticed it. We get thousands of people everyday at Costco, so I deal with many people. I don't go around showing it to everyone who's interested in a Plasma, but once in a while I point it out
And it's not our feed and this is visible at BB, The Brick, and Futureshop, etc.

As has been explained, this is phosphor decay artifacts as green is the slowest. You can see this on a lot of CRTs. These will vary depending on the speeds of the phosphors used in the display. You can see these pretty bad on direct-view CRTs that are designed to for interlaced use, some other CRTs have much faster green phosphors and won't trail at all (especially fast-green tubes tasked for 3D simulators).

Mr. Wiggles, you seem to know what I'm talking about. I thought I heard it described as phosphor decay somewhere but wasn't sure. Yes I do see it sometimes on my 46" Sony RPTV but it's not nearly as bad as I've seen it on the plasmas.

Do you know of any Plasma displays that do not have phosphor decay? This would help me out. I think I heard somewhere that Samsung PDPs don't have it. Can you confirm?

All phosphors have a decay time. I have no idea as to what plasmas might use different phosphors (I'm not that familiar with plasmas specifically at all), so I'm sorry I can't help you there.

Take a look at different manufacturers, the effect is greater on some and less on others. To me, Pioneer and Panasonic have the worst trails, and samsung has the least noticable - go figure.

Doug

I guess I'll look into the new samsungs coming out then. Thanks mate.

Forgive me if I use incorrect terms and such... but this is all new to me. Here is my story.

I'm in a fairly bright room so I thought the best solution would be a LCD. I bought the Sony Bravia 40" LCD a few weeks ago and set it up at home. What started to worry me while watching was a combination of tunnel vision and pixel lag. It seemed like where I was watching the screen and about 10 inches around that looked great... but outside of that, my brain was "telling" me that things were blurry... thus giving me a tunnel vision effect. I was used to it though. But then I'd hit a scene in a movie where I WANTED to see the whole screen and I could not... a fly by over the battle at the beginning of Fellowship of the Ring was a complete blur to me...

But I tried... found I could get it better once I bought the new Toshiba HD DVD player and pushed the 1080 resolution at the TV... things got better.

But then I started to hate how the dark areas of a movie would just be too dark, but the bright areas too bright. Trust me... I played with the settings for two weeks solid and could not get a good balance.

So I went plasma and bought the new Panasonic 60U... this thing makes a GREAT picture... answered all my dreams... until I was FLASHED with green during a high contrast shift in the image... I could also see green trails behind fast moving objects.

Was hard for me to notice in the store (but when I return now... I can see them).

The final proof was putting Casablanca in the DVD player... nice sharp picture... and TONS of color. Looked like bright jellyfish darting all over my screen teasing me.

My wife says the TV looks fine to her (have not had the chance to show her B&W yet).

ANYONE have any info that might help me out here? Went to the store again and confirmed that Plasma has the best picture... but these flashes are going to drive me crazy I'm afraid.

I seem to be one of the cursed minority.

Solutions?

dalandis

I seem to be one of the cursed minority.



Sadly, you may be one of those rare individuals that are so susceptible to artifacts that no display may be watchable for you. Seriously, some people react very atypically to visual phenomena that most don't notice. Here's a thread from another forum in which someone describes not being able to view HDTV because of motion sickness:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=57614

Forgive me if I use incorrect terms and such... but this is all new to me. Here is my story.

Solutions?

dalandis

Take it out of Vivid ;)

dalandis: Some people watch other people making shadow picures on the wall by holding their hands in front of a lamp.

If you can see rainbows there I sure would like to be smokin' whatever you are smokin'!

Okay... thanks everyone for the jokes. I'm not an idiot or smoking anything though. I fear what SillySam is telling me.

I agree that it's completely messed up. But it's there for me.

Like if I change the aspect ratio and those gray bars come up flanking the screen... I see rainbow-type flashes in that gray.

The grayscale Casablanca is a killer on me.

All the while, my wife is standing right next to me saying that she sees nothing of the sort.

I also went to a local HomeMedia store and sat in their pro room... looking at a Pioneer Pro profesionally tweaked out... thought there was nothing... but then they changed the channel to a movie of the Addams Family and SCREAMING rainbows showed up in people's white shirts.

It is such a shame, because I put in Robots last night (the movie I viewed as the HARDEST to make look good on LCD) and it looked AMAZING... I saw things on the screen - details that I never knew were there.

The movie was completly watchable (seeing flashes only in the most extreme cases - like where the little dishwasher bot is trying to fly with Rodney in the sky/clouds).

But then KONG had lots of flashes... Ice Age had quite a few... When the Ice Age credits come up I cringe with strain as rainbows dance inside the white text.

AND YES... I'm out of vivid mode. I played with the settings extensively.

Is there some secret service menu that has a magic setting that will fix this? That would be a dream come true!

(Heck... I can even see the rainbows when looking at the screen with sunglasses)

I also see those short green trails on ultra fast high contrast movement... but those I could live with. This other effect sort of attacks your eyes... especially if I turn my head while watching (the whole screen can then display a green flash in my eyes.)

Looking like a dead dream for me... unless they can get those LCDs in shape with better refresh and clarity.

But I guess I'll be met with more jokes.

Just count yourself lucky that you don't see what I see.

dalandis

please keep us posted if someone finds a way to lessen the rainbow effect. Should something be adjusted in the main settings area, i.e. contrast? brightness? color? tint? sharpness? or color temperature?

dalandis. Try the new Samsung plasma's. I have been told by a few people that the rainbows and trails are not present on these.

Artwood, stop being an idiot. You come on this tread and all you do is make fun of people. We have proven throughout this thread that rainbows and trails do exist on plasmas. They are caused by phosphor decay. Most people don't see them and I guess your one of them, but if you have nothing intelligent to contribute then leave this thread.

okay conan48... I'll take a look at those.

wish I could see it easier in the stores... but their feeds usually hide it pretty well for me.

will take a look on my lunch

I never liked the picture quality of Sony Bravias. Sure, they have a really good viewing angle, but that is about it. The thing that bothered me most when viewing them at Best Buy is how strong the contrast is. As you described, the blacks and white appear crushed and unrealistic.

My Westinghouse 32w6 on the other hand gives me an image that appears to have much more natural lighting. Great contrast, but nothing is crushed. Maybe you should check out the 42w1 and see how that looks to you?

Conan48: ran by best buy to check out the samsung... but had to leave pretty quickly and did not have time to confirm... but I thought I saw green flash on that too (but the green tracers did seem to be less)... but the flashes is what I cannot live with. Again, hard to tell in the store... need to find a store that will let me play with a remote.

justinluck: did not see your post before I left... so will look into the Westinghouse as well. With LCD, I wish I could demo ROBOTS on one... the entire opening sequence of that movie played havoc with the Sony... a looooonng really slow pan with tons of details to see... (but could not see any of the details) (on the other hand, when I saw that same section on plasma last night the difference was night and day... plasma dominated)

I assume all that has to do with refresh rates? Hard to find like some master comparison sheet of refresh rates... and will the new 1080 LCDs handle this better?

-----------
dalandis

Rainbows, flashes, moire, smearing, judder. It would be helpful to know precisely what it is you are perceiving. I see judder and moire quite often and smearing under certain conditions on my plasma. But from what I understand about the way AC-type plasmas operate, I don't see how rainbows could be produced unless it's embedded in the source material somehow. Perhaps your "persistence of vision" isn't as "persistent" as we common Joe's and you're getting distracted by judder and smearing?

Have you sampled the 72 Hz-capable Pioneer Elites (running at 72 Hz, natch)?

Probably the best example of the worst case scenario (and the effect that causes the most concern that I have to retreat from plasma) is this sort of intense color flashing. For instance, if I change the ration to 4:3 and it puts up those gray bars... those gray bars are not flat gray color to me... they sort of radiate pulses of colors as my eyes move over the image. (Same thing happens over the whole screen if I watch black and white movie like Casablanca). It becomes less noticable when watching something like Robots... I could live with that... but when it does hit me, it sort of hurts... and when watching SD or HD it is much worse. Now that I know that this happens, when I am in Best Buy and walking down the plasma row... if I turn my head fairly fast I see a BRIGHT GREEN spear jab at my eyes from all the plasmas. (Also, if I wave my hand in front of the screen my eyes see lots of rainbow colors between my fingers - not that I watch TV that way... but I've seen others that complain about this issue to describe the same trick.)

Perhaps I am a cylon?

Now... your comment about 72 Hz Pioneer Elites... I think I saw one of those units at a local HomeMedia (but don't know if it was running at 72 Hz)... are you suggesting that the 72 Hz is a pulse rate (sorry if my terms are idiotic) that is similar to CRT? Would that be the standard setting for that unit?

I've been wondering in this process if somehow my CRT watching all day (graphic designer on a LACIE CRT) has trained my eye to a certain pulse... and the plasma uses a different one... and my eyes keep snatching at the pulses? Is this even possible? The reason I wonder that is it felt (but perhaps phantom feelings) that when I return to work after massive testing sessions on the plasma, that I see YELLOW screaking on my CRT... something that has NEVER bothered me in 15 years of working on a CRT. CRTs have never been a strain for me... computer LCDs never seemed as good to me as my CRT. (laptop LCDs actually seem to hurt my eyes)

What do you think 1920x1080? Does this provide any clues? Again... can't be the TV because my wife stands next to me saying that she cannot see them.

Does the Panasonic 60U have a service menu that might contain a setting that would help me?

Rainbows, flashes, moire, smearing, judder. It would be helpful to know precisely what it is you are perceiving. I see judder and moire quite often and smearing under certain conditions on my plasma. But from what I understand about the way AC-type plasmas operate, I don't see how rainbows could be produced unless it's embedded in the source material somehow. Perhaps your "persistence of vision" isn't as "persistent" as we common Joe's and you're getting distracted by judder and smearing?

Have you sampled the 72 Hz-capable Pioneer Elites (running at 72 Hz, natch)?

Please folks, stop doubting the existence of this issue, I have previously explained that it has to do with the different phosphor-decay rates. You can see this effect on some CRTs as well, and yes it is similar to the rainbow effect on DLP, but it is yellowish-green in color, not a full RGB color separation rainbow.

It is not in the source, it is not judder or anything like that. If you pause a high-contrast black and white image, and then dash your eyes around, you will be most likely to see this artifact. The paused image is case in point that this is a temporal artifact of the display, and not related whatsoever to the source content.

I don't doubt it... I definitely see that the green decays slower than the rest when things are moving fast (but this is not a bother to me) I remember seeing a post of a Sin City screen shot here at avs that showed that effect.

But does this same artifact create these pulses? I can understand that might be it... but why the heck do I have to see it so MUCH! Mostly green... but I also see red and blue in there sometimes. So to me... I see different decay rates for all three colors. So when the red and blue drop out, I'm left with a green pulse around that area of contrast.

Yes, it's made worse as well by the PDM/PWM nature of plasma displays.

So according to the info from ChrisWiggles... this ability to see decay with my eyes much more sensitive than 99% of the population? Thus meaning that plasma is a TV I cannot watch? Could it be the fact that the TV has less than 100 hours of operation? (but then I see this stuff in showrooms too... and they certainly have run for more than 100 hours - so that does not seem to hold up) Any special lenses I could wear to help? Wow... this stinks. Plasma is SO much better than LCD to me. Any future technologies that might help this?

dalandis, I have the same tv as you. what are your settings at:

STANDARD/VIVID/CINEMA?
PICTURE?
BRIGHTNESS?
COLOR?
TINT?
SHARPNESS?
COLR TEMP?
BLACK LEVEL?


Want to compare, mine are:
STANDARD
PICTURE: +12
BRIGHTNESS: +5
COLOR: -2
TINT: -5
SHARPNESS: -3
COLR TEMP: Warm
BLACK LEVEL: Light

Thanks for the specs... I'll certainly test them tonight... but I'm not hopefull. Your settins look similar to things I've tried... (heck, I've pulled the picture and/or brightness all over the place... I can definitely make the process worse). But to try to get rid of it also makes the picture into mush. (I'll let you know.)

But wait Chris Wiggles... the only thing that does not jive is let's say I'm wathing the end credits of ICE AGE... if it was JUST pixel decay, wouldn't I just see color trails? What I see is almost like a rainbow glowing within the white lettering. While at lunch today, I was walking BEHIND the plasmas and could see that Ambient light tv... it has color tubes back there to splash colors on the wall that correspond to the screen image... looking at those tubes - exposed was the closest thing I have seen that compares to what I feel during these pulses of contrast change.

Thoughts?

No, it's not color trails I'm talking about, I'm talking about temporal rainbows. Pause the image, and look at it with your eyes fixed. It should just appear normal. Now move your eyes quickly, you see colors now? That's rainbows and yes you can get those on plasmas.

Well ChrisWiggles, I can definitely say that I've seen that. And it's sharp and painful to me. But it seems I don't have to move my eyes much at all. Perhaps when those sidbars are up it is most noticable because my eyes drift over the image in the middle and I am flanked with colors that show up in those gray bars. That's the easy way to make myself see them.

I'll mess with settings some more tonight.

So am I out of luck with plasma (and DLP too I assume)?

I'm surprised I'm not more sensitive to CRT? Isn't that the same deal?

If so what are the votes on the best LCD? I was not happy with 40" Sony Bravia at all.

Who knows--maybe you have an inherrited gene that causes you to see rainbows on everything but a Sharp Flat Panel LCD!

IF you do then this will get my vote for the greatest Company or technology Plant post of all time!

Seriously though--if you don't like Flat Panel LCD either--what will you do--quit watching TV or buy a Rear Projection CRT?!

I would think that if your eyes are that sensitive, then watching TV on CRTs would be intolerable. I know that when I go to Best Buy and walk down the aisles of CRTs, I start to become nautious from the constant flickering in my peripheral vision. Even when I look directly at an HDTV CRT, the image doesn't appear as stable as on an LCD. What is the refresh rate set at on your computer monitor?

They say people see a lot of rainbows in the Bay area. ;)

I know that when I go to Best Buy and walk down the aisles of CRTs, I start to become nautious from the constant flickering in my peripheral vision.

As long as you don't vomit in Best Buy. Are you sure it just isn't the store? Does it happen at Circuit City?

So am I out of luck with plasma (and DLP too I assume)?

I'm surprised I'm not more sensitive to CRT? Isn't that the same deal?

If so what are the votes on the best LCD? I was not happy with 40" Sony Bravia at all.

While I have no problems with plasma or LCD, DLPs are completely unwatchable. I would think that if you have problems with plasmas, DLP would also be out of consideration.

CRTs sound problematic based upon the post of CRT induced nausea. LCDs certainly have their negative effects on many.

I hope you're able to watch the screen in a theater. That may be your only recourse as far was movies go. If you can tolerate your computer monitor, there is streaming video from more and more sources all the time. That may be the way for you to go.

Probably the best example of the worst case scenario (and the effect that causes the most concern that I have to retreat from plasma) is this sort of intense color flashing. For instance, if I change the ration to 4:3 and it puts up those gray bars... those gray bars are not flat gray color to me... they sort of radiate pulses of colors as my eyes move over the image. (Same thing happens over the whole screen if I watch black and white movie like Casablanca). It becomes less noticable when watching something like Robots... I could live with that... but when it does hit me, it sort of hurts... and when watching SD or HD it is much worse. Now that I know that this happens, when I am in Best Buy and walking down the plasma row... if I turn my head fairly fast I see a BRIGHT GREEN spear jab at my eyes from all the plasmas. (Also, if I wave my hand in front of the screen my eyes see lots of rainbow colors between my fingers - not that I watch TV that way... but I've seen others that complain about this issue to describe the same trick.)Our peripheral vision is more sensitive to motion (changes in brightness) and indeed, plasma pixel brightness is controlled through pulses on the order of milliseconds. These and other factors must be conspiring with your vision system to produce the phenomena you are perceiving.
Perhaps I am a cylon?

Now... your comment about 72 Hz Pioneer Elites... I think I saw one of those units at a local HomeMedia (but don't know if it was running at 72 Hz)... are you suggesting that the 72 Hz is a pulse rate (sorry if my terms are idiotic) that is similar to CRT? Would that be the standard setting for that unit?72 Hz would be the refresh rate--the rate at which entire frames are displayed on the screen. The pulse rate that controls pixel brightness is somewhere in the millisecond (thousandths of a second) range.
I've been wondering in this process if somehow my CRT watching all day (graphic designer on a LACIE CRT) has trained my eye to a certain pulse... and the plasma uses a different one... and my eyes keep snatching at the pulses? Is this even possible? The reason I wonder that is it felt (but perhaps phantom feelings) that when I return to work after massive testing sessions on the plasma, that I see YELLOW screaking on my CRT... something that has NEVER bothered me in 15 years of working on a CRT. CRTs have never been a strain for me... computer LCDs never seemed as good to me as my CRT. (laptop LCDs actually seem to hurt my eyes)

What do you think 1920x1080? Does this provide any clues? Again... can't be the TV because my wife stands next to me saying that she cannot see them.That's a very interesting observation. I know that our vision systems do adapt to varying degrees as individuals. Ever been on a cross-country trip cruising comfortably at 90 for hours? When you slowed down to something more sedate, like 60, didn't it seem like you were crawling? Things really do seem to happen more slowly for racing drivers at 190 than for those of us that do not spend a great deal of time at those speeds. Heck, after a couple of hours of Gran Turismo, real driving at everyday speeds seems really slow to me. I've also found over the years that I've become sensitive to CRT refresh rates. Anything below about 75 Hz is bothersome to me...initially. When I'm overseas, 50 Hz PAL is distracting at first, but I become "acclimated" after a few days. Hmmm...now that I think about it, the flicker does remain noticable in my peripheral vision, especially when my eyes are scanning something, as when reading...

CRT's designed for graphics designers are known for high refresh rates, on the order of 100-120 Hz. Just out of curiosity, what is your LaCie set to?

While I'm not discounting this phenomenon due to technological side effects in any way, some of what I'm reading here reminds me of an optical illusion demonstrated at the Exploratorium in S.F. At this one exhibit, they have this rotating circular plate spinning around at roughly 10 cycles/sec. On the plate, you can clearly see multiple colors (yellows, reds, blues, greens, etc) as it spins around. Once the plate stops spinning, you are surprised to find that there are no colors at all on plate - just varying blocks of black and white.

I'll tell you a story.

Had neighbors that raised turkeys. The kids, named one of them Cisco. Played with him. He became their pet. They could pick him out...etc. He was fond of them. Then...Thanksgiving came. The Kids just cried and cried. So..they traded Cisco...for chickens. EVerybody ate and was happy. Do you understand?

It's mind over matter. If you don't mind..it don't matter. But, you have to be far enough away from it for that to work. :)

Dalandis. The main problem I have is trails. Would you say the Samsung had the least amount of trails compared to the other plasmas? Would you say less then the Pannasonic 60u which I was considering.

Who knows--maybe you have an inherrited gene that causes you to see rainbows on everything but a Sharp Flat Panel LCD!

IF you do then this will get my vote for the greatest Company or technology Plant post of all time!

Seriously though--if you don't like Flat Panel LCD either--what will you do--quit watching TV or buy a Rear Projection CRT?!


Honestly, why do you continue to troll this thread? Go. Away. Already.

Anyway, what daladis is describing is precisely why I started this thread several months back, and the fact that it hasn't died is proof-positive that yellow flashing pulses DO EXIST on plasma. They are actually WORSE than DLP, they are painful and if viewed for extensive periods of time feel like they're doing actual damage to one's eyes. I AM NOT kidding here. Go ahead and peddle your conspiracy theories all you want. The HP (i.e. Panasonic) that I bought from TVA months back (ask Aaron, he sold it to me) was an AWESOME display. I WISH I could've kept it, but I could not tolerate the pulsing yellow flashes. I have given up on plasma at this point. My only recourse is LCD or Direct-View CRT. And that sucks.

Looking like a dead dream for me... unless they can get those LCDs in shape with better refresh and clarity.

But I guess I'll be met with more jokes.

Just count yourself lucky that you don't see what I see.

dalandis

Have you sampled an SXRD? It's refresh rate is at the levels of plasma and totally different than DLP and I've never seen anyone post rainbow or similar on it but now that I've said this Auditor55 may state otherwise ;) .

Realize you may not care for RPTV but when your vision is defiant towards FP PDP, might as well try one of the best RPTV with fast response times or wait on the Sharps coming out in the fall with quicker Response and other improvements. Or you could be a guinea pig for the new Samsung LED DLP which is 40 times faster at processing than other DLP's and is not supposed to have visible rainbows and is true 1080P should be debuting sometime around mid - late June.

Good Luck with the Curse. Some folks must have hypersensitive vision I guess when I first saw these posts I thought they were a joke - but appears it's a real issue with some. :)

Gripe gripe gripe. One time I was fussing about rainbow effects on the ol' plasma until my wife points out that I was viewing a travelogue on Hawaii. ;)

I second the recommendation of checking out the Sony SXRD (or other Lcos-based displays) for those experiencing this problem on plasma. The SXRDs are tremendous, and in my view do some things even better than plasma. As well, they have some of the better viewing angles for an RPTV.
I dont' think I've heard of any complaints from SXRD owners, of the types of anomalies reported here, or about DLPs.

Okay... check this out. I wonder if the Hertz is a culprit for me. I checked the Hertz on my computer monitor (which I stare at all day) and it is set to 85 Hertz. Looks like from the Panny specs that the plasma is 60 Hertz. (Sound right? Are all plamas 60 Hertz?)

I can change the Hertz on my computer monitor so I dialed it to 60. The change is extremely drastic to my eyes... I don't so much see color pulses... but the whole monitor is pulsing at me wildly in a very intense feeling. No WAY I could look at it for more than a minute or so. Brighter aresa worse of course.

Dialed the computer monitor to 75 Hertz and if looked SO MUCH better to me.

Then put it on 85 Hertz as always... looked similar to the 75.

I've been a graphic designer since I started using a computer... what do people typically have a computer monitor CRT set to? Could this be the reason I'm having so much trouble?

Need to find a plasma where you can change the Hertz... Panasonic? Will do some more research and keep everyone posted.

dalandis

Dalandis. The main problem I have is trails. Would you say the Samsung had the least amount of trails compared to the other plasmas? Would you say less then the Pannasonic 60u which I was considering.

Conan... it is so hard for me to see in the store setting. But it did seem that the unit had less of the green trails on fast movement. Could have been my imagination though. The white letters seemed more pure to me (on dark backgrounds). Worth looking into. But they did not have a 42" in the store... and I was looking at a 50." So I did not stare too much.

I also recall seeing an SXRD Sony unit when going to HomeMedia yesterday. The picture looked really good and I could see no strange rainbows or pulses on that screen. But because of my room (and a cabinet unit where the TV needs to be placed) I'm really only considering something about 43" or below... and really needs to be shallow. Do they make a smaller unit? I think the one I saw was a monster 60"

But if nothing else works, I guess I'd have to reinvent the whole room (but lots of built in cabinets make that hard).

Hope I can figure out this plasma mystery though... the plasma looks so great when it behaves for my eyes.

Hmmm... this Hertz issue is going to be a hard thing to test. Looks like the only Plasma that gets up to at least 72 Hertz is a Pioneer with that PureCinema 3:3 pull down technology. Certainly not showing up in any showrooms in Richmond Virginia. My local HomeMedia does not have a 3:3 model on display. But wow... the PDP-4360 HD as seen on cnet.com sure looks like a beauty. Anyone here have one? East coast person?

Okay... now I'm getting somewhere... there is a showroom about 8 miles from my office that has a big version of the Pioneer with this 3:3 pulldown. I plan to visit there tomorrow with a stack of my DVDs to test out the effect to see if I can eliminate this pulse attack on my eyes. I will definitely post my results for you. (Wish me luck.) The guy on the phone was very curious to have me come in and see what I think. And not a single joke from him about me being on drugs... what a relief.

dalandis

The PDP 4360 has trails real bad. One of the worst offenders, but also probobly the best picture :mad:

The PDP 4360 has trails real bad. One of the worst offenders, but also probobly the best picture :mad:

yuck conan... that would be bad news... but I guess I could live with trails if I had to. I'm pretty excited to visit this showroom place tomorrow as I never knew it existed. (Tucked away in an industrial park). The owner was really curious to have me visit and see what he considers to be the best and most tweaked out systems available. (All technologies).

Okay... check this out. I wonder if the Hertz is a culprit for me. I checked the Hertz on my computer monitor (which I stare at all day) and it is set to 85 Hertz. Looks like from the Panny specs that the plasma is 60 Hertz. (Sound right? Are all plamas 60 Hertz?)

I can change the Hertz on my computer monitor so I dialed it to 60. The change is extremely drastic to my eyes... I don't so much see color pulses... but the whole monitor is pulsing at me wildly in a very intense feeling. No WAY I could look at it for more than a minute or so. Brighter aresa worse of course.

Dialed the computer monitor to 75 Hertz and if looked SO MUCH better to me.

Then put it on 85 Hertz as always... looked similar to the 75.

I've been a graphic designer since I started using a computer... what do people typically have a computer monitor CRT set to? Could this be the reason I'm having so much trouble?

Need to find a plasma where you can change the Hertz... Panasonic? Will do some more research and keep everyone posted.

dalandis

Plasma's and CRT's are way different when it comes to refresh rates due to the fact they use vastly different technologies to paint the image. Most LCD's are 60Hz and there is no "flicker", however, a CRT at 60hz will have flicker visible to most people. 75hz is usually adequate for a PC monitor; go much above that and you oversaturate the phosphers and they tend to bleed into one another making the picture blurrier. So, the lower the Hz on a CRT the crisper the image and less vibrant, the higher the blurrier and more vibrant colors.

Okay... check this out. I wonder if the Hertz is a culprit for me. I checked the Hertz on my computer monitor (which I stare at all day) and it is set to 85 Hertz. Looks like from the Panny specs that the plasma is 60 Hertz. (Sound right? Are all plamas 60 Hertz?)Plasmas can generally sync to a variety of frequencies--multiple combinations of resolution and refresh rates; 60Hz was the high water mark until the Pio Elite you mention above came out.
I've been a graphic designer since I started using a computer... what do people typically have a computer monitor CRT set to? Could this be the reason I'm having so much trouble?...I set the refresh to the highest rate the video card/CRT combination will support. With LCD's, however, I set it to 60 Hz. Setting it any higher without proper pullup support can work against you if you are displaying anything with motion (results in slower response times [judder]).

Plasma's and CRT's are way different when it comes to refresh rates due to the fact they use vastly different technologies to paint the image. Most LCD's are 60Hz and there is no "flicker", however, a CRT at 60hz will have flicker visible to most people. 75hz is usually adequate for a PC monitor; go much above that and you oversaturate the phosphers and they tend to bleed into one another making the picture blurrier. So, the lower the Hz on a CRT the crisper the image and less vibrant, the higher the blurrier and more vibrant colors.LCD's (and plasmas) display the entire frame all at once, while CRT's can only energize a single pixel at any given moment; so with CRT's a balance must be struck between phosphor response time and refresh rate--the longer it takes to light up a pixel, the lower the refresh rate that can be sustained without smearing. High quality, purpose-built, video graphics design and presentation monitors are equipped with high performance phosphors designed to work at very high refresh rates (100, 120 even 150 Hz, I believe), hence they provide very good transient response times and frames per second rates without smearing or judder (make great fps gaming displays, but they can be exxy).

yuck conan... that would be bad news... but I guess I could live with trails if I had to. I'm pretty excited to visit this showroom place tomorrow as I never knew it existed. (Tucked away in an industrial park). The owner was really curious to have me visit and see what he considers to be the best and most tweaked out systems available. (All technologies).

Dalandis,

Not to rain on your parade, but I too have looked at the Pio 4360 and saw the same pulsing flashes. I can gaurantee that you'll notice them the minute you walk up to the display. You do seem like you're on to something with the refresh rates, but I fear you and I - and others still - are SOL when it comes to plasma. One can only hope we don't have these problems with SED (if they ever arrive).

Sometimes you can see an individual blade of a fan for s split second--so what?

The only way there will be no effects period is if the picture is Painted with paint!

Process that refresh rate!

Sometimes you can see an individual blade of a fan for s split second--so what?

The only way there will be no effects period is if the picture is Painted with paint!

Process that refresh rate!

You're such a tool.

Sometimes you can see an individual blade of a fan for s split second--so what?

The only way there will be no effects period is if the picture is Painted with paint!

Process that refresh rate!

That...or DNi.. :eek:

That hurts me...they used to say that to John Holmes, too.

Let me ask you this Yoda1--what technologies or displays do you recommend for the rainbow and trail beleagured and challenged?

If the pain of seein them is so injurious do you think there should be congressional hearings? Do you think there will be lawsuits?

If you show any of the offending technologies to a jury of 12 people will they see them too and sympathize?

What do you think is worse for the eyes--these displays or neon lights? Do you think the people who have NEON lights and ALSO see such effects have the potential to be brainwashed for nefarious purposes?

Do you think it would be cruel to let a dog or a cat watch such a display?

If they like watching them is it because they haven't different eyes than us or is it because they are more intelligent and don't see such nonsense?

That hurts me...they used to say that to John Holmes, too.

Let me ask you this Yoda1--what technologies or displays do you recommend for the rainbow and trail beleagured and challenged?

If the pain of seein them is so injurious do you think there should be congressional hearings? Do you think there will be lawsuits?

If you show any of the offending technologies to a jury of 12 people will they see them too and sympathize?

What do you think is worse for the eyes--these displays or neon lights? Do you think the people who have NEON lights and ALSO see such effects have the potential to be brainwashed for nefarious purposes?

Do you think it would be cruel to let a dog or a cat watch such a display?

If they like watching them is it because they haven't different eyes than us or is it because they are more intelligent and don't see such nonsense?


I asked you before, but for some reason it seems to have dissappeared, but farting on this thread and acting as if people who see this are crazy really is not productive to anyone.

I explained why this exists, that yes some people can see this and some may be bothered by it. This thread was started by someone who can see it, if you don't see it, again I say: great! It's really not productive to keep egging people on because you think it's some crazy fantasy rainbow or that we're all on drugs.

Some people see this, I explained why, that should be enough for you to understand it, and be happy that you are not one who is bothered by this. Some people see rainbows on 3-chip DLPs too, and that can also be explained. Even though I don't see rainbows on 3-chippers, I don't feel the need to go around thread-farting because someone else does.

Dalandis,

Not to rain on your parade, but I too have looked at the Pio 4360 and saw the same pulsing flashes. I can gaurantee that you'll notice them the minute you walk up to the display. You do seem like you're on to something with the refresh rates, but I fear you and I - and others still - are SOL when it comes to plasma. One can only hope we don't have these problems with SED (if they ever arrive).Was the display set to 72 Hz with proper 3:3 pullup of 24 fps source material?

Chris Wiggles: let's try ONE MORE TIME! What kind of display do you oh learned sensitive expert recommend for the people who DO suffer seeing such things? Is it possible to make a recommendation or does it take a zillion posts back and forth with people trying to quantify what is in somebody else's eyes--even IF it is really there and still not being able to come up with a recommendation?

If anyone in hte history of the universe was going to trash Plasma could you think of a better way to do it?

It is not JUVENILE to ask such questions!

It is JUVENILE to afix the appelation of FARTER to anyone who does!

So the bottom line is this: Will there be a recommendation at the end of this exercise or a zillion posts trashing Plasma with everyone congragulating each other on being mature and discussing such a charade in a thoughtful??? manner?

I acknowledge that some people see things that I do not see.

Can you see a solution for those people problem? I'll even give you all the due respect in the world and just ask you WHAT "IN YOUR OWN EYES" do you SEE as a solution to these people's problem?

It's official... I have verified that I too see "rainbows" on my PDP when I watch it through my rose colored glasses! :D

Could some kind hearted mod please put this ridiculous thread out of its misery? :confused:

Reporting in after my exploration into 3:3 pulldown.

Guess what. It didn't help. Exactly the same thing. So it appears that plasma is out of the question for me. At least this generation of them. Such a shame as they picture truly is stunning. But I see the effect on all makes and models. 2:3 vs 3:3 did not change anything.

I called Panasonic just to see if they have any file on this effect that a VERY SMALL (obviously) slice of the poplulation can see. Of course not... never heard of this before.

I know it's fun for many of you to joke about this condition. But I sure wish you could see what I see just for a moment. Then you'd change your tune. It's not ignorable. It's very distracting and makes watching TV painful.

Heck... I've watched my share of crappy signals with all kinds of noise, bad contrast, terrible picture... and I can deal with all of those things.

Imagine someone standing behind your TV with a bright green flashlight and waving it around so the light shows though the picture when areas turn from dark to light.

Casablanca became my acid test... seeing the rainbow effects are incredibly easy watching the first 5 minutes of that film. That's the worst case scenario. When you move to something like Robots... it more watchable with only the occasional glare of green. The more color in the picture... the better it hides it.

But then KONG has lots of the effect in it too.

So count yourselves lucky... I have to throw in the towel on plasma... perhaps even wait a year or so before trying any upgrade again.

Thanks everyone who tried to help me track this down.

And for all the people that say this thread is ridiculous... just consider for a moment that this matters to some of us.

Well, like many people this week, I've been all about E3 and just this morning I came across a video of Rainbow Six being filmed off a plasma. Now, I know many of you will continue to say that I'm crazy, seeing things, need my eyes fixed, etc., but I think this video shows some of the things that dalandis and I are complaining about.

If you have the time, download this video -- http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?type=mov&id=10717

About midway through the video, once the SWAT team gets inside the Casino, you see them taking cover and running past big white flourescent lights in the background. If you look closely as the camera pans past those big lights from left and right, you can see yellow blurring or trailing. It also happens on many other scenes but it's a bit more subtle. Also, if you freeze frame some of these scenes you can clearly make out a yellow outling around the player models and other objects onscreen. If I could, I would take stills and post them here, but i have no idea how to do something like that. If someone here sees what I'm talking about, and could take some screen caps of the effect as it's happening, that would be awesome.

P.S. - The more I watch this video, the more clearly I see this. How anyone with a discerning eye couldn't see what I'm talking about in this video, is absolutely beyond me.

Yes, you must not be worthy of plasma. :D

Yes, you must not be worthy of plasma. :D


Huh? Are you an alumn of the Artwood School of *******s, too?

Huh? Are you an alumn of the Artwood School of *******s, too?

If you only knew the power of....... :D

I acknowledge that some people see things that I do not see.



Agreed Here's the thing. It's one thing to acknowledge an artifact not seen by all, but seen by enough to believe it's real, whether or not a given person sees it. DLP color wheel artifacts fall into that category.

But, this plasma artifact would appear to be seen by about 3 people on this board out of how many thousands who would happily respond that they saw an artifact if they indeed did see it. If those three people really did see this artifact which has been described as "It's very distracting and makes watching TV painful", these three are truly cursed. But then I have to ask if an artifact is so bad as to make watching TV painful, how in the world can there not be so many others that also see it? Something just doesn't seem to make common sense here.

dalandis said, "Casablanca became my acid test... seeing the rainbow effects are incredibly easy watching the first 5 minutes of that film". I've watched this movie many times on a Pioneer and Fujitsu plasma and have seen a touch of any color artifact. How can that possibly be if this artifact is so obvious, even if to only 3 people?

For the sake of argument, let's say the artifact is real and is seen by 0.00004% of HD viewers. All I can say is thank goodness for defective eyes or ignorance that I don't see it. Plasma technology wouldn't be selling as well as it is if a significant number of people saw this artifact.

Go to the scene where SWAT kicks open the door to that bar that has white lights above and below. As the camera pans, you can see yellow and blueish color trails around those white lights. Focus on any other similar scene and you will pick up on what I'm seeing.

If I had a capture card, this argument would be over. It's impossible not to see in the stills.

Agreed Here's the thing. It's one thing to acknowledge an artifact not seen by all, but seen by enough to believe it's real, whether or not a given person sees it. DLP color wheel artifacts fall into that category.

But, this plasma artifact would appear to be seen by about 3 people on this board out of how many thousands who would happily respond that they saw an artifact if they indeed did see it. If those three people really did see this artifact which has been described as "It's very distracting and makes watching TV painful", these three are truly cursed. But then I have to ask if an artifact is so bad as to make watching TV painful, how in the world can there not be so many others that also see it? Something just doesn't seem to make common sense here.

dalandis said, "Casablanca became my acid test... seeing the rainbow effects are incredibly easy watching the first 5 minutes of that film". I've watched this movie many times on a Pioneer and Fujitsu plasma and have seen a touch of any color artifact. How can that possibly be if this artifact is so obvious, even if to only 3 people?

For the sake of argument, let's say the artifact is real and is seen by 0.00004% of HD viewers. All I can say is thank goodness for defective eyes or ignorance that I don't see it. Plasma technology wouldn't be selling as well as it is if a significant number of people saw this artifact.


This logic doesn't wash. DLP sells like hotcakes and it's a known fact that some people are sensitive to rainbows. There's no conspiracy going on here. You people need to just get over the fact that some people have better eyes than others.

Can you see rainbows if you stand on your head? :D

Chris Wiggles: let's try ONE MORE TIME! What kind of display do you oh learned sensitive expert recommend for the people who DO suffer seeing such things? Is it possible to make a recommendation or does it take a zillion posts back and forth with people trying to quantify what is in somebody else's eyes--even IF it is really there and still not being able to come up with a recommendation?

If anyone in hte history of the universe was going to trash Plasma could you think of a better way to do it?

It is not JUVENILE to ask such questions!

It is JUVENILE to afix the appelation of FARTER to anyone who does!

So the bottom line is this: Will there be a recommendation at the end of this exercise or a zillion posts trashing Plasma with everyone congragulating each other on being mature and discussing such a charade in a thoughtful??? manner?

I acknowledge that some people see things that I do not see.

Can you see a solution for those people problem? I'll even give you all the due respect in the world and just ask you WHAT "IN YOUR OWN EYES" do you SEE as a solution to these people's problem?

Has there been anti-plasma posting anywhere in this thread? No.

Again, I ask everyone else who is not bothered or concerned with this artifact to refrain from posting in this thread.

I've already explained the source of the issue, if it's bothersome to you, you may want to avoid plasma displays. I am not that familiar with a large number of plasma displays so I cannot say if some may be using phosphors that may be less susceptible to causing this artifact to become visible, but it is certainly a possibility, just as CRTs vary in the visibility of this artifact.

There have been numerous threads in the past on this topic, so don't act as if this is a new discovery. It's been covered many times before.

Aren't bothered or don't see this? Fine, then don't post in this thread.

WHat cracks me up is the lengths these people go to to FIND the problems. :rolleyes:
"Man...when I wave my hand in front of my eyes, I see these things"
You have got to be kidding me, right? :eek:

Yoda1 and Dalandis: The Architects of The Vast Conspiracy To Subvert Sales of Plasma.

And I thought this was a forum for adults. Get a grip, Artwood.

IN OTHER WORDS: Keep the charade going on IN FINITUM. Wake me up when ANYBODY ANYWHERE finds a cure for these people's problem!

WHat cracks me up the the lengths these people go to to FIND the problems. :rolleyes:
"Man...when I wave my hand in front of my eyes, I see these things"
You have got to be kidding me, right? :eek:

Yeah, posting a video off the internet that clearly exhibits this phenomena is such a herculean effort.

WHat cracks me up is the lengths these people go to to FIND the problems. :rolleyes:
"Man...when I wave my hand in front of my eyes, I see these things"
You have got to be kidding me, right? :eek:Or perhaps the "beer" factor has kicked in when this phenomenon occurs? ;)

Screen shot of game.

Okay... I guess you can ALL see the effect on this game screen... watching the movie in action it is plain to see on my CRT. And yes... I believe all you plasma users (me included) can see these when you are watching, but you choose to ignore them, or they are so fast they don't matter.

BUT for me... when this happens the color is an erruption in my eyes... so the glows and trails are MUCH brighter than the rest of the picture... the center of the hot white area sort of pulses at me too.

That's what feels like the attack.

When I watch Casablanca... I see this same thing... and its BRIGHT to my eyes.

But who cares, right? You guys can't see it... so Yoda and I have a curse... I certainly WISH I did not see them. They certainly don't go away by trying to ignore them.

gamescreen.jpg

(Never tried to add a pic to one of these messages, so please forgive if it does not work)

IN OTHER WORDS: Keep the charade going on IN FINITUM. Wake me up when ANYBODY ANYWHERE finds a cure for these people's problem!

Translation: "I bought a plasma and your critcism of its faults hurts my feelings." Waaaah. Go away, troll.

Screen shot of game.

Okay... I guess you can ALL see the effect on this game screen... watching the movie in action it is plain to see on my CRT. And yes... I believe all you plasma users (me included) can see these when you are watching, but you choose to ignore them, or they are so fast they don't matter.

BUT for me... when this happens the color is an erruption in my eyes... so the glows and trails are MUCH brighter than the rest of the picture... the center of the hot white area sort of pulses at me too.

That's what feels like the attack.

When I watch Casablanca... I see this same thing... and its BRIGHT to my eyes.

But who cares, right? You guys can't see it... so Yoda and I have a curse... I certainly WISH I did not see them. They certainly don't go away by trying to ignore them.

gamescreen.jpg

(Never tried to add a pic to one of these messages, so please forgive if it does not work)


Yup, Dalandis. That's exactly it, and in motion it's a lot more intense and much harder to pin down. It blurs across your eyes in a kind of "mush" of color that makes it almost painful to endure.

OMG..posting screenshots and recordings....yeah, that's convincing.
GIve me a pic and photoshop and I'll show you all kinds of stuff. :D

Translation: "I bought a plasma and your critcism of its faults hurts my feelings." Waaaah. Go away, troll.

I think what you don't like about Artwood is that he is questioning what you are saying. Nothing more, nothing less. :D
I am also, BTW. :p

OMG..posting screenshots and recordings....yeah, that's convincing.
GIve me a pic and photoshop and I'll show you all kinds of stuff. :D

So now, Dalandis and I have teamed up to sabotage the sales of plasma by posting photoshopped pics of Rainbow Six Cam footage from E3? LOL. You guys are caaarrrrrrraaaaaaazy.

Dude... nobody here really cares if you buy a Plasma, LCD or even a dreaded RPTV! :rolleyes:

Screen shot of game.

Okay... I guess you can ALL see the effect on this game screen... watching the movie in action it is plain to see on my CRT. And yes... I believe all you plasma users (me included) can see these when you are watching, but you choose to ignore them, or they are so fast they don't matter.

BUT for me... when this happens the color is an erruption in my eyes... so the glows and trails are MUCH brighter than the rest of the picture... the center of the hot white area sort of pulses at me too.

That's what feels like the attack.

When I watch Casablanca... I see this same thing... and its BRIGHT to my eyes.

But who cares, right? You guys can't see it... so Yoda and I have a curse... I certainly WISH I did not see them. They certainly don't go away by trying to ignore them.

gamescreen.jpg

(Never tried to add a pic to one of these messages, so please forgive if it does not work)

That is exactly what I have described, however because that is a fixed camera (and a pan on the display) that is more a phosphor decay artifact, but the same thing exists temporally as you move your eyes and appears very much the same.

I think what you don't like about Artwood is that he is questioning what you are saying. Nothing more, nothing less. :D
I am also, BTW. :p

As I said, why are you questioning this?

It's been well established in the past, and explained.

Don't see it? Great! Then you have no real need to read or participate in the thread.

I don't expect the VAST majority of viewers to have any problem with this.

You are the vast majority, so go elsewhere and stop flaming. This did not concern you until you decided that you knew better in the face of explanations of precisely why this artifact is present based on the inherent operation of the display.

Now wait just a second elemental1... that screen shot is right off the file Yoda posted... if you tell me you can't see that when watching the quicktime movie then you're the insane one.

I am now convinced that if we were all standing in front of that plamsa together... you would not see it and I would... but that video footage DOES capture the effect... just as my eyes do... except they are much brighter in my eyes than this screen shot shows.

Now look at the image again... and just imagine that the green glow and the center of what is supposed to be white is VERY BRIGHT... like someone threw just those areas into VIVID mode with PICTURE maxed out.

Now if you see that happen to you every 5 or 10 seconds (or almost contantly in black and white movies) you'd know what I'm talking about.

But it's there... now I have proved to myself I see it in every plasma out there. (even pro-calibrated showroom displays).

So for anyone else out there in the world considering plasma... buy it... love it... enjoy the heck out of it. You will more than likely be fine and not see any of this. But just be on the lookout for this effect. It's hard to see in the store.

If it were JUST pixel decay, I could live with it.

But for me... I see the green trails AND they are accompanied by pulse and bright flash.

99.9% of the population can not see them... obviously.

As I said, why are you questioning this?


SO, because I have not seen it I am not allowed to question it?
Is that the kind of logic you are using?
Why are you so worried about people questioning these 'facts'?
A sure sign of BS, if you ask me. :)

Basically phosphors decay at different rates.

CRTs do this too, though many direct views have very slow green phosphors especially to reduce flicker so you're more likely to see green trails that really stay for a while (whole fractions of seconds, which is a long time) as opposed to decay-rainbows.

Projection TVs you will find, especially HD sets and front-projection (designed for graphics) have faster phosphors and should be run at faster refresh rates, but still the phosphors decay at different rates. As you increase the refresh rate, at some point you won't be able to see flicker, because your eyes are too slow. However, flicker is still occuring as the phosphors decay, and because they decay at different rates you get that kind of yellow decay in between refreshes. As you dart your eyes around you may still see this after-effect despite the fact that you can't sense the flicker that is occurring.

I am particularly sensitive to this kind of thing (rainbows on 1-chip DLPs drive me nuts), and it's why I run my CRT projector at 72hz progressive, though I still see some decay artifacts even at this high a refresh rate.

Viewing with ambient light and things like that will vastly reduce visibility of these artifacts, FYI.

Again, most people will never notice these kinds of things, or if they do inadvertently notice them they won't be bothered by them.

The people who do not see this --- why the heck are you questioning that this is happening to me? Heck... I'm a busy guy. I bought a TV that I think I would love EXCEPT for this major problem I see in my eyes. I came to this forum in the hopes that someone would be able to offer some advice to eliminate the effect.

I certainly would not get any gratification pulling the wool over the eyes of people who do not give a rip about me.

I am trying to explain what it looks like so perhaps I can track it down. Thought Hertz might have something to do with it... but it does not. Thought someone might say that my set is defective... but it's not.

All this is education for me. But you've turned it into me having to defend myself.

So I'm the big loser. You win... you can't see it. Congrats.

Now wait just a second elemental1... that screen shot is right off the file Yoda posted... if you tell me you can't see that when watching the quicktime movie then you're the insane one.


Ok, first off....it's QTime..hehe.
There are too many variables for this to be proof of anything.
I am new to plasma and I will be on the lookout, but not overly so.
I think the PQ of plasma is just incredible and it is just amazing that people like you are complaining about any of the HD sets out there.
I was just checking out the AVIA DvD......just look how it used to be. Look at the demo shots they show you from older tech.
I just find it hard to imagine people are having real issues with these amazing new toys.
Granted, you might have an ailment...but it's NOT the tech at fault here.

We are receiving many complaints concerning this thread.

This thread is being closed until we can figure out what is going on.

Dave

dalandis: I can't really apologize for the behavior of other people, but I would if I could!

Again, I'm not super-familiar with various plasma displays, so I don't know if suggesting other plasmas might be helpful or not, it may well not be.

Viewing with lights on may reduce the visibility of this, though I've seen this with lots of lights on in the room as well, so again I don't know if that will be enough, though it's easy to try out.

You may need to switch to another display technology, or perhaps you will become accustomed to this artifact or find a way to ignore it.

Those seem to be the options at this point at least.

Okay, time out is over.

Lets stay on topic.

Lets remain civil to each other.

Lets contribute our opinions wisely.

Lets have a great weekend:)

Dave

Okay, time out is over.

Lets stay on topic.

Lets remain civil to each other.

Lets contribute our opinions wisely.

Lets have a great weekend:)

Dave

Guess what. It didn't help. Exactly the same thing. So it appears that plasma is out of the question for me. At least this generation of them. Such a shame as they picture truly is stunning.

The effect is there and its real but switching to a differnt tech with Worse PQ is a different effect you will have to live with. Also i think as the plasma ages this effect might become less noticeable, i dunno.

OK. We know that phosphor decay causes the trails. They exist. I also saw them on the Rainbow six video, and I've seen them in person. Now, do we know if any plasma manufacturer is doing anything about this.

Dalandis. You should check out some AliS panels. They are found in Hitachis. AliS is a different tech for plasma and might not have the trails/rainbows. You will know it's an AliS panel because of the 1024 x 1024 resolution.

Dalandis. You should check out some AliS panels. They are found in Hitachis. AliS is a different tech for plasma and might not have the trails/rainbows. You will know it's an AliS panel because of the 1024 x 1024 resolution.

I've checked out the Hitachi panels, and I see the same things. No difference whatsoever.

I'm cursed.

As I said in another thread I first noticed this entirely on accident on my friend's pioneer 5060. I didn't even know what it was at the time and thought that I had to be seeing things. However, after learning what it is, this explains what I have been seeing on my sony 32hs420 (crt) for the last couple years. I always thought it was just a crazy after-image at the fault of my eyes. But now I realize that the after-images I was seeing are really yellow/green trails. But for some reason whereas the effect was really bright on the plasma, it's pretty dim on the crt. Maybe just because of the difference in the brightness of the technology, I dunno. Anyways, though I do notice it atleast once or twice per movie it doesn't really bother me too much. I notice it non-stop if I am looking for it in high contrast scenes, but looking for it requires so much concentration that I can't pay attention to what's going on on the screen.

Also, I find it strange that me and my brother were seeing it for years without knowing what it was, and yet none of my friends see a thing. I guess it really does depend on your eyes.

All,

I am very sensitive to the RBE on plasmas and DLPs, but I made a startling discovery tonight...

I don't see any RBE, color smears, yellow streaks, nothing, nada, zip on 720p! I was watching the Spurs/Mavericks game tonight on ABC and realized that the picture was absolutely perfect. So I switched to a 1080i channel, and there they were again -- RBE! Back to 720p -- nothing.

It has been speculated that the decay time of the various phosphor are to blame, if that is the case, maybe 720p is the answer???

Comments?

All,

I am very sensitive to the RBE on plasmas and DLPs, but I made a startling discovery tonight...

I don't see any RBE, color smears, yellow streaks, nothing, nada, zip on 720p! I was watching the Spurs/Mavericks game tonight on ABC and realized that the picture was absolutely perfect. So I switched to a 1080i channel, and there they were again -- RBE! Back to 720p -- nothing.

It has been speculated that the decay time of the various phosphor are to blame, if that is the case, maybe 720p is the answer???

Comments?
I saw them on a 5060 with a dvd player upconverting to 720p. Maybe the content you were watching in 720p just wasn't a susceptible to showing the problem? I can only see it in high contrast scenes. Like in Pirates of the Caribbean or Serenity they have tons of relatively lit characters moving over dark backgrounds. Are you guys saying you can see this in completely bright material too? If so then I feel very sorry for you.

All,

I am very sensitive to the RBE on plasmas and DLPs, but I made a startling discovery tonight...

I don't see any RBE, color smears, yellow streaks, nothing, nada, zip on 720p! I was watching the Spurs/Mavericks game tonight on ABC and realized that the picture was absolutely perfect. So I switched to a 1080i channel, and there they were again -- RBE! Back to 720p -- nothing.

It has been speculated that the decay time of the various phosphor are to blame, if that is the case, maybe 720p is the answer???

Comments?

Well, the video of Rainbow Six I posted from E3 was running on a 360, most likely at 720p and the yellow flashes were all over the place.

Yoda1,

Rainbows You see HHMMM Lots of different colors are they? Relax and become one with the plasma you must. Or else suffer your eyes will.

To the store you must go where purchased you did. Your weapons...you will not need them. The salesman you must confront. Only then, can you complete your destiny.

Yoda1,

Rainbows You see HHMMM Lots of different colors are they? Relax and become one with the plasma you must. Or else suffer your eyes will.

To the store you must go where purchased you did. Your weapons...you will not need them. The salesman you must confront. Only then, can you complete your destiny.

Trust me, if i could become one with plasma to cure this disease, I would. I'm in love with the tech.

After my eyes are dialated for an eye exam, I'm astonished how clearly I can see 60hz CRT referesh. I swear I can almost count each frame. It almost totally disappears after a few hours.

Anyone with rainbowitis have unusual experiences watching after a dialation?

I was watching a Kim Possible DVD with my little boy on Friday night and the picture was vibrating color and trails at me... then by chance I swtiched the DVD to 480 and the picture looked perfect. Then I got excited... had I solved the problem?

So I put in my two acid tests, Casablanca and King Kong...

Tried to change the resolution settings and it did not help at all.

Weird...

I ended up taking back my plasma on Sunday and will keep following this tread.

As I walked around Best Buy on sunday... I realized I could see the effect on all plasmas if I looked for it. Again... it is much harder to see in the showroom. But now that I know if I can spot it there, it will be 100 times worse for me when I get it home.

Also... as soncomet said... now that I am freaking out about them, after I plugged in my CRT TV again, I think I am cathing them there too... but they are so fleeting and certainly not pulsing bright to me... so they really don't bother me. But they were SO obtrusive on the Plasma they have tweaked up my sensitivity.

Again... I must be ultra sensitive... because aside from the few people on this message board... no one I have ever talked to has heard complaints of this.

Maybe if this thread can stay live... perhaps this mystery can be helped.

But I think I'll have to look to another technology for now... and keep my eyes on plasma in the future models.

dalandis

I still can't believe people haven't complained about the rainbows more then ghosting on LCD panels since it actually looks worse.


I honestly think the answer to this is that most people don't have them or simply don't see them. If they actually do exist on all plasmas (which I seriously question), they're obviously far harder to pick out than ghosting issues on LCDs.

Motion artifacts? Yea, I've seen them on plasmas. I've seen them on LCDs. I also see pixelation with fireworks and similar scenes on all types of displays. How do you know that what you're seeing isn't related to the source and compression artifacts and not the display? I'll bet that where the problem is. I suspect you're placing the blame for what you're seeing in the wrong place. It's not the plasma. And rainbows on plasmas? Sorry, I've never seen one on my Fujitsu. On, DLPs, absolutely. But not on a plasma. And I'm not yet blind.

Bingo! This whole discussion reminds me of one we had several years ago regarding false contouring. I discovered, through my own experimenting with my Panasonic 34" CRT HDTV, that what people were accusing plasmas of, was in some cases SOURCE related. I well remember seeing some false contouring on my Fujitsu plasma on Man In The Iron Mask. When I took that same DVD to my Panasonic CRT, there it was.... precisely the same false contouring, to the same degree, as was shown on my plasma. This is not to say that earlier plasmas (and some lower end units today) don't exhibit false contouring on their own, but people are way to quick to blame a display for what may well be source related.

How do people know that some trailing issues are not inherent in some of the video cameras that are being used? Some of these issues are just not as simple as some think they are.

I second the recommendation of checking out the Sony SXRD (or other Lcos-based displays) for those experiencing this problem on plasma. The SXRDs are tremendous, and in my view do some things even better than plasma. As well, they have some of the better viewing angles for an RPTV.
I dont' think I've heard of any complaints from SXRD owners, of the types of anomalies reported here, or about DLPs.

Rich, the only problem with this (I would think) is that if someone is so sensitive to rainbows on plasmas, SSE on the SXRD's would KILL them!!! I've never seen a rainbow on my plasmas, but I sure have seen SSE on the SXRDs. It's one of the reasons I could never own one myself. They've got some great PQ aspects going for them, but the SSE is a deal-break for me. ;)

Casablanca became my acid test... seeing the rainbow effects are incredibly easy watching the first 5 minutes of that film. That's the worst case scenario.

I think an interesting test for you would be to check out other B&W movies. Do you see these issues to the same degree with other B&W movies? If not, I'd go back to a possible source related issue or some strange interaction with THAT movie and the display you're watching. But it seems to me if a given B&W movie shows this issue for you, then all B&W movies should manifest it.

This logic doesn't wash. DLP sells like hotcakes and it's a known fact that some people are sensitive to rainbows. There's no conspiracy going on here. You people need to just get over the fact that some people have better eyes than others.

I don't think it has a thing to with 'better eyes'. I have extremely keen color perception, but yet have never seen this problem. Have you considered the possibility that there's actually some minor issue with 'your' vision that makes you see this? I'm truly not being flip here. I totally agree with what's been said by SillySam, there are a ton of people here that own plasmas and it's almost impossible to believe that such a 'serious' issue could be missed by 99.9% of plasma owners. Honestly, doesn't this seem more than a bit odd? So yes, I honestly believe there could be an issue with YOUR vision that makes you and a couple of others susceptible to this....doesn't make you a bad person nor does it make your vision 'better' than others. ;)

Have you considered the possibility that there's actually some minor issue with 'your' vision that makes you see this?
I see the rainbows and I know that I have astigmatism. I've wondered if the two might be related...

But as I posted above, the rainbows go away on 720p broadcasts on my plasma.

Rich, the only problem with this (I would think) is that if someone is so sensitive to rainbows on plasmas, SSE on the SXRD's would KILL them!!! I've never seen a rainbow on my plasmas, but I sure have seen SSE on the SXRDs. It's one of the reasons I could never own one myself. They've got some great PQ aspects going for them, but the SSE is a deal-break for me. ;)

SSE is pretty annoying for me too.

Ken .. did you watch the Rainbow Six Vegas clip I posted? I defy you not to see what dalandis and I are describing in that video.

I saw it but didn't think it was a big deal, but I honestly never see this kind of thing on my plasma! BTW, the color looked more green than yellow to me.

ScottS, what plasma do you have?

Ken Ross:

I now know that I am one of the TINY minority of people who see this... I say Casablanca is my acid test as I don't have any other B&W movies... but I saw the effect in B&W TV shows... as well as in color sources... it's just really fast to notice in B&W. And I also have stood next to quite a few people watching clips and they CANNOT see what I describe.

So yes... my eyes for sure.

It's interesting though that a digital video clip captures the effect the same way my eyes do.

It does not look to bad to me in the video clip... but live effect is a different story. Very bright and very pulsing.

Really weird. But I'll keep looking at new plasma models as they are released to see if any new tech helps me out with this.

Congrats to all who cannot see it... I think you're seeing the best tech available.

I wonder if the effect changes in intensity based on the white level setting of the TV. Yoda and Dalandis, what do you have your contrast set to? If the left side of the bar is 0% and the far right is 100%, what is yours set to?

I wonder if the effect changes in intensity based on the white level setting of the TV. Yoda and Dalandis, what do you have your contrast set to? If the left side of the bar is 0% and the far right is 100%, what is yours set to?

I tried this. I even tried watching my TV with polarized glasses. It helped tone down the intensity of the pulsing/flashing, but who the hell wants to watch TV with glasses on?

Yeah but what is it set to? Perhaps there is a threshold where pushing the phosphores above that level causes their decay rate to change, and maybe their profiles change differently depending on that level. Reduce the contrast to like 20%... It should be about there anyways long term.

Glasses wouldn't help because they would only reduce the light into your eye and not the emission of the panel.

Also, IMO all tests should be done with a 720p native res feed. If the effect is so quick then IMO it could easily be mistaken for interlacing artifacts. So any set in the store could be suffering from 1080i feed + too high of contrast. Even interlacing artifacts could show a color-changing trailing edge, because of the TV sub-pixels interacting, in the same way that a very fine vertical B&W stripe surface (a ref uniform) will turn to rainbows in the right conditions.

I can't wait for the posts from the blind and half blind guys saying plasma flashes too much for them. :D

Several posts removed: please keep it cordial and only post if you have something useful to add.

Thanks

Yeah but what is it set to? Perhaps there is a threshold where pushing the phosphores about that level causes their decay rate to change, and maybe their profiles change differently depending on that level. Reduce the contrast to like 20%... It should be about there anyways long term.

Glasses wouldn't help because they would only reduce the light into your eye and not the emission of the panel.


I haven't had the HP plasma for a long time, but first thing I did when I got it was tone down the contrast for fear of burn-in. I don't remember exactly how high I had the contrast on the HP (Panasonic) but it might have been somewhat high 'cause I remember thinking that lowering the contrast too much resulted in a very soft-looking PQ. I might stop by CC or BB today and fiddle with the settings. I doubt this will help, though, 'cause the yellow flashing/pulsing is a lot worse at home. In the store with a lot of light, I hardly notice it.

I haven't had the HP plasma for a long time, but first thing I did when I got it was tone down the contrast for fear of burn-in. I don't remember exactly how high I had the contrast on the HP (Panasonic) but it might have been somewhat high 'cause I remember thinking that lowering the contrast too much resulted in a very soft-looking PQ. I might stop by CC or BB today and fiddle with the settings. I doubt this will help, though, 'cause the yellow flashing/pulsing is a lot worse at home. In the store with a lot of light, I hardly notice it.

Can you post some examples of your own from your own plasma of the effect you claim to keep seeing? :)

Elemental, image examples were already posted. If an end-user claims to see this effect, you shouldn't feel the need to doubt that claim right-out, especially if it is repeatable and described in detail.

In the store with a lot of light, I hardly notice it.

Yoda: again, ambient light will help minimize the visibility of this, just as it does the visibility of rainbow artifacts on a DLP display for instance. A lower white level setting may also help with this.

But again, if it's that bothersome and you can't change the environment such that it's no longer a distraction, you'd have to consider a different display or display technology.

Yoda: again, ambient light will help minimize the visibility of this, just as it does the visibility of rainbow artifacts on a DLP display for instance. A lower white level setting may also help with this.
This is my point I guess. If a set is properly calibrated, then it will minimize the differences caused by ambient light. The picture should be observed the same in a light room as it is in a dark room; this is part of the reason to calibrate. So if it's far less noticeable in the stores, it should be no problem to set the TV at home to provide the same picture. And then on top of that, the store TV's are set way too much in torch mode even for the relatively bright conditions, so setting it more reasonably will also help reduce the effect.

Elemental, image examples were already posted. If an end-user claims to see this effect, you shouldn't feel the need to doubt that claim right-out, especially if it is repeatable and described in detail.


It seems like a simple request to see some first hand examples from the person(s) that are complaining and not some junk pulled off the internet that is hard to verify.
The more responses like yours, the more I will doubt it.

It seems like a simple request to see some first hand examples from the person(s) that are complaining and not some junk pulled off the internet that is hard to verify.
The more responses like yours, the more I will doubt it.

You can see it in the video as a related phosphor decay issue. If you call that "junk" and unverifiable when I explained exactly what it is that you were seeing in the video and why, I wouldn't be surprised if someone did post an image of this that you would also call it unverifiable "junk"

The reason it's difficult to capture with a camera is the same reason it's difficult to capture rainbows on a DLP display: the artifact is temporal in nature, so you need to have a camera fast enough, and you need to move the camera to capture the effect. This is difficult to do, and you would likely call it nonsense because it would be a screenshot taken while rapidly moving the camera and I'm sure you would just equate the result as "camera issues and blurriness."

The last point is, who cares what you think? You don't see this problem. There is no onus on anyone else to prove to you individually that this is a relevant behavior of the display. What would that achieve? Nothing. You can't see this anyway, so why do you even care? You don't care, you just want to continue to flame the experienced members here, and continue to fart on this thread with your snide remarks and unnecessary demands which do nothing to help those who are having fatigue/distraction issues with this artifact.

You are free to begin making constructive posts on this forum at any time.

This is my point I guess. If a set is properly calibrated, then it will minimize the differences caused by ambient light. The picture should be observed the same in a light room as it is in a dark room; this is part of the reason to calibrate. So if it's far less noticeable in the stores, it should be no problem to set the TV at home to provide the same picture. And then on top of that, the store TV's are set way too much in torch mode even for the relatively bright conditions, so setting it more reasonably will also help reduce the effect.

Yes, though the downside to that is that many want to view in more critical darkened environments, so that's where this may be a concern.

I am not a plasma user, however I would still want to view in a darkened room, and in this case turning on lights would be quite a sacrifice for my viewing preferences. That's why it can be more of an issue for some viewers, and not at all an issue for others, even among those why may be susceptible to seeing these rainbow effects.

So for those few who may be bothered, AND want to view in darkened environments, that's a combination that makes things worse in these regards.

It's not unlike seeing flicker on a CRT, you're a lot more likely to be bothered or fatigued by flicker if you're in a darkened room than if you are in a brightly lit room. For critical viewers who watch in a darkened room, this may exacerbate this fatigue problem if applicable.

The last point is, who cares what you think? You don't see this problem. There is no onus on anyone else to prove to you individually that this is a relevant behavior of the display. What would that achieve? Nothing. You can't see this anyway, so why do you even care? You don't care, you just want to continue to flame the experienced members here, and continue to fart on this thread with your snide remarks and unnecessary demands which do nothing to help those who are having fatigue/distraction issues with this artifact.

You are free to begin making constructive posts on this forum at any time.

I obviously care or I would not be asking. I am looking for the truth and there does not seem to be a lot coming from your posts.
I also find it comical that YOU are mocking my very constructive posts. :D

I obviously care or I would not be asking. I am looking for the truth and there does not seem to be a lot coming from your posts.
I also find it comical that YOU are mocking my very constructive posts. :D

I think intelligent readers can discern the intentions behind your postings.:

I can't wait for the posts from the blind and half blind guys saying plasma flashes too much for them. :D

Ok, first off....it's QTime..hehe.
There are too many variables for this to be proof of anything.
I am new to plasma and I will be on the lookout, but not overly so.
I think the PQ of plasma is just incredible and it is just amazing that people like you are complaining about any of the HD sets out there.
I was just checking out the AVIA DvD......just look how it used to be. Look at the demo shots they show you from older tech.
I just find it hard to imagine people are having real issues with these amazing new toys.
Granted, you might have an ailment...but it's NOT the tech at fault here.


OMG..posting screenshots and recordings....yeah, that's convincing.
GIve me a pic and photoshop and I'll show you all kinds of stuff. :D

WHat cracks me up is the lengths these people go to to FIND the problems. :rolleyes:
"Man...when I wave my hand in front of my eyes, I see these things"
You have got to be kidding me, right? :eek:

Quite obviously you own a plasma, and are defensive about that and claim that "it's NOT the tech[nology] at fault here" and further that those who see this must have "ailments." You find it "hard to imagine people are having real issues with these amazing new toys."

So no, I'm not mocking your constructive posts at all, because you've not made any constructive posts at all. I'm glad you find that funny, but other long-term forum members like myself find your behavior very frustrating because there are people who have concerns and issues they'd like to have resolved, and they are NOT helped by newbies like yourself who make a bunch of dismissive posts in threads where they are seeking advice or clarification about their systems. At this point, a gracious person would defer to others who are actually attempting to help guide users towards resolution of the problems they have in their systems. That YOU personally don't consider it a problem is irrelevant.

I could go and grab a bunch of your posts and make you look annoying also but that would be childish.
Instead I will chime in when I feel there is too much BS going on without a challenge.
I am happy to see that you have me figured out and can read my mind also. :rolleyes:
Now please, continue with this 'Plasma problem discussion' for now... :D

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thanks all

thread now open