How does everyone intend to calibrate their display to the 360 HD 720p/1080i output ?

-- Now 480i/p is a given using dvd playback but just exactly how are we to calibrate 720p/1080i with no dvd playback function at those resolutions (???) .

-- Has M$ left the 'HD-Era' console with no way to properly calibrate for HD resolutions ?

-- I think they should offer up a (free) Calibration content download via LIVE for those that want/need it . It does not have to be anything elaborate either but at least give us some contrast/brightness/color adjustment ability for the HD resolutions .

--- If something of this nature is already available on the 360 then somebody please say so , I have heard no mention of anything along these lines however .


------ Best Wishes ,
---------- Jason

You not reading/responding to PMs?

Doesn't the X360 play static images from LAN? I'd simply create custom patterns for things like resolution*, block color, etc., but you'll need measuring hardware to set other things. Question: to what goal would you seek calibrating your X360 to? Since this is gaming, and not movies, I'd garner the common 6500K color temp is 'assumed'.

Also, I mentioned this before about people calibrating their consoles and garnered no one did this. And in making custom patterns (use M$ Paint), make sure they are exact to your display's native resolution--otherwise problems could arise.

That's a really good question.
As someone with an X1, but soon to replace it (tonight) I worry about other X1 owners who can only get 480i or 480p but not both.
Take the Halo 2 discs. The collector disc came with an extra disc and you can't play it now on the regular xbox without swapping wires.
But for the 360 maybe you could simply download or rip test patterns or calibration discs to the PC and run them from there possibly?
Too bad the 360 doesn't have built in test stuff. The Media Center edition has test material built into it, can you run that?

You not reading/responding to PMs?

Doesn't the X360 play static images from LAN? I'd simply create custom patterns for things like resolution*, block color, etc., but you'll need measuring hardware to set other things. Question: to what goal would you seek calibrating your X360 to? Since this is gaming, and not movies, I'd garner the common 6500K color temp is 'assumed'.

Also, I mentioned this before about people calibrating their consoles and garnered no one did this. And in making custom patterns (use M$ Paint), make sure they are exact to your display's native resolution--otherwise problems could arise.

Not responding to PM's ??? Actually I respond to several each day usually :confused: .

--- I considered the static image (jpg/bmp/etc.) but that could lend itself to other mis-calibration issues as well . Now it certainly could be done but in order to be exact it would have to be verified by somebody with proper calibration gear .

--- I just find it odd that they have put so much into this 'HD-era' console and yet overlooked a very important aspect for those that take their 'HD' image seriously .

--- For MCE 2005 users this will probably be an easier issue to tackle (by being able to stream video) but I am certain that most 360 owners will not have an MCE PC in the house .

--- If anybody comes along with a working solution please do inform us here at AVS . I plan to work on it and see what I can come up with as well .


----------------- Jason

I plan on doing a greyscale, brightness, tint, color, contrast calibration with the SpyderTV. There are two big unanswered questions about calibrating to the Xbox 360:
1. Does the XBOX 360 expand DVD/video levels to PC levels? (black at 16->0, white at 235->255)
2. Are Xbox 360 games made using PC levels ( black at 0, white at 255)?
If the answer to 1 is yes and 2 is yes then we should be fine using a DVD test disk such as Video Essentials or Avia since games and DVD will use the same white and black level. It should be easy to tell whether the 360 is expanding DVD levels because Video Essentials will not pass the below black bars.
If we have the case where the XBOX 360 preserves video levels (displays below black bars in DVE) and games are made using PC levels then we have the same mess on our hands that we have with the PC. You will not be able to calibrate one without severly compromising the other. In this case my preference would be to just grab one of the monitor calibration JPGs available on the web and use that to calibrate to PC levels so at least games display correct (it is a game console after all).

Unless MS sets a standard calibration for all games, I'm guessing you'll need to rely on the gamemakers to have some sort of test patterns for their games (as some do now). Maybe this is something people can request (petition) to MS/game makers.

Sort of related, so I'll chuck it in here.
I hope that with the system set for HD resolutions and widescreen that the screen 'fits' better than PS2/Gamecube games on my TV (Sammy 3064). I've seen a few people have this problem where some properly calibrated HDTV's where the overscan has been corrected have problems with consoles as games are rarely overscanned. Leaving a good amount of space either side of the image.
Oh well, will find out tomorrow.

great thread

I was just planning using DVE in the 360 at 480i/p and hoping it would still look pretty good at 720p/1080i. You're right, that's all M$ has done for us. It would be nice if they did provide some HD test patterns or a calibration tool but I'm guessing we're too much of a fringe group for MS to service. Many people will still be playing the 360 on a SD tv and lots of people with a HDTV don't even know what calibration is. That said, it still would be nice if they did do something for those of us who want to calibrate. Realistically, it's probably not going to happen.

You not reading/responding to PMs?
It's okay, you're not the only one TGP ignores ;)

My modded Xbox's dashboard (Xbox media center) displays natively at 720p, and I FTP'ed some static and moving calibration images from my PC in jpg and mpg formats. Worked great. I plan on doing the same for the 360. I'd post it all here but they're about 25MB total.

Here are a few idea's. First you need to get some 720p calibration material. Thats probably the hard part, but I'm pretty sure there have to be some video files out there. After you do that you should be able to stick it on an external drive or maybe a usb key and have your xbox play it as long as its Mpeg2 or wmv. Maybe microsoft has some 720p test paterns somewhere?

It's okay, you're not the only one TGP ignores ;)
TGP doesn't need to ignore me. I get that from my wife.

My modded Xbox's dashboard (Xbox media center) displays natively at 720p, and I FTP'ed some static and moving calibration images from my PC in jpg and mpg formats. Worked great. I plan on doing the same for the 360. I'd post it all here but they're about 25MB total.

I have a feeling that modding the Xbox360 won't be so easy, but we'll see. In the meantime, feel free to drop those JPG's on a USB drive and read them from there (not sure if the MPGs will work, though, but if you have an MCE PC, you can stream them as WVM files in HD resolutions...)

The original idea of having downloadable test patterns is a great idea. I got a few connections and will try to get the ear of the right people on the Xbox team and see what they think about it...

I have a feeling that modding the Xbox360 won't be so easy, but we'll see. In the meantime, feel free to drop those JPG's on a USB drive and read them from there (not sure if the MPGs will work, though, but if you have an MCE PC, you can stream them as WVM files in HD resolutions...)

Yeah, that was my idea when I said that I'd so the same for the 360 (meaning, use the same patterns), not that I would be modding it so soon (probably won't see that for quite a while).

I'll just put them on my 512MB USB keyfob.

IIRC, NTSC and DVD do not use the same colorspace as ATSC (HDTV). Then it get's annoying when you decide to go from Component video to PC RGB (a la VGA).

Great thread. Been thinking about this as well. I wouldn't recommend calibrating it via a DVD disc at 480p - you really need 720p material

This is certainly not the first time AVSers have set out to create PC test patterns. Such home made test patterns are very popular for calibrating HTPCs, and I've seen threads in AVS in the past where folks have posted the patterns.

If someone digs these out or creates new ones, please post them.

Also I saw someone post the question about whether the XBOX 360 users PC or VIDEO black levels. If anyone knows please post. Thanks. If I find out any details in the meantime I'll post them here.

Well the free NBA LIVE 2006 demo has a pretty decent calibration pattern in the "VIDEO SETTINGS" menu :D .

----------- Jason

A question needs to be answered in that are the video levels while playing games the same as for when showing static images, streamed video, etc., and are these going to be PC RGB video levels or something else. Only way to find out, I guess, if to start asking some monkey developers (Lucasfilm?) for them in SW games. lol May the video force be with you.

kick ass, glad to see you could answer your own question. Now to go pick mine up so I can calibrate my projector as well :-)

Well the free NBA LIVE 2006 demo has a pretty decent calibration pattern in the "VIDEO SETTINGS" menu :D .

----------- Jason

Great news. I'll have to check it out. How do you get to that demo - Downloadable through via Xbox Live? What patterns did you see?

Well the free NBA LIVE 2006 demo has a pretty decent calibration pattern in the "VIDEO SETTINGS" menu :D .

----------- Jason
And are the patterns resolution-specific?

And are the patterns resolution-specific?

I don't think the actual patterns would be any different. However what your hdtv actual displays from that pattern will likely be quite different at 720p vs. 480p. That is why its important to calibrate the display based on the resolution you will use the most. Either that or you can have one set of settings for 480p DVD viewing Vs. another for 720p game playing.

I plan on doing a greyscale, brightness, tint, color, contrast calibration with the SpyderTV. There are two big unanswered questions about calibrating to the Xbox 360:
1. Does the XBOX 360 expand DVD/video levels to PC levels? (black at 16->0, white at 235->255)
2. Are Xbox 360 games made using PC levels ( black at 0, white at 255)?


These are great questions. I have a XBOX 360 and ColorFacts and am happy to experiment - just not sure though out to go about determining this. If someone can elaborate on a way I can determine this using standard patterns or test material let me know and I'll dig in.

I don't think the actual patterns would be any different. However what your hdtv actual displays from that pattern will likely be quite different at 720p vs. 480p. That is why its important to calibrate the display based on the resolution you will use the most. Either that or you can have one set of settings for 480p DVD viewing Vs. another for 720p game playing.

The color and brightness patterns may be the same, but I thought the resolution patterns would need to be more detailed for 720p, for instance, vs. 480p? Isn't that why there are seperate versions of DVE w/ 720p and 1080p patterns?
http://www.videoessentials.com/DVEPro.php

How about migrating some video using this (http://www.videora.com/en-us/Converter/Xbox360/)?

I don't get it...what does that Videora software do besides converting your files to WMV?

Edit - Nevermind... I see now that it can be configured to automatically d/l files, transcode them, and then drop them on your MCE PC. If you have the MCE PC a MPG test pattern, you can also use Windows Media Encoder to convert the file.

Sorry, I had not taken a close look, and a friend passed that along to me. I should have verified his forwards for usefullness. Oh well, M$ has screwed all of you in this aspect.

hey, i just got my xbox 360 last night at midnight. im running it on my sony xs955 (CRT) in 1080i and it looks great, however i have a small problem. there appears to be a horizontal geometry issue, as the right side of the picture is getting clipped off. it's like i need to center the image, but i can't find the option on the xbox or on my tv to do so. anyone have any ideas?

Sounds like a horizontal timing issue. I've seen this on some inexpensive transcoders when going from Component to RGBhv, and the Sony is taking the Component signal you are feeding it and converting it to RGBhv to the tube. I doubt you will find anything in the X360, and unless something appears in the way of a service menu you are probably SOL.

Okay, so I just popped in DVE and the Xbox 360 does pass the below black bars. Now the big question is whether games use video levels also. If games use the 0-255 range for RGB then calibration disk such as Avia/DVE will be useless.
I will have to see if I can dig up a monitor calibration JPG off the web for setting brightness/contrast. I am interested in whether the PC level jpg has crushed blacks with the DVE brightness setting or if the Xbox is compressing the color range to fit in PC levels so that we can still use DVE for setting brightness.
From going through a few resolution test patterns it appears that the Xbox 360's DVD playback is significantly improved from the original Xbox. On my Xbox the vertical resolution pattern used to shift to cyan/magenta as the lines got closer together. On the 360 the pattern is nearly as good as my HTPC.

Well the free NBA LIVE 2006 demo has a pretty decent calibration pattern in the "VIDEO SETTINGS" menu :D .

----------- Jason

I posted this here in another gaming thread also :

I finally got the 360 hooked up and it looks great with PGR3. I can verify that the 360 is indeed much louder than the 4805 :eek:

There is a Video settings section on the disc that works like the THX optimizer for you contrast and brightness levels. With a 480i signal I have my contrast and brightness at 50. With 720P and 1080i from my SA 8300 HD DVR, I set them at both at 40. Now when using the PGR3 optimzer, I have to set the brightness at 58 and the contrast at 33. Very strange.

Now I havent thrown in DVE seeing as the 360's dvd player will only output 480P and doesn't help in calibrating the 720P output where actual games are concerned.

smithfarmer, what is your display?

those settings seems to be very high or I am setting my XBR960 very low....

It's an Infocus 4805 and I posted incorrect numbers. Brightness-58, Contrast-33 with PGR3. Still far different than my HD cable box.

With my JVC 56G786 I use 0 contrast and -25 brightness. Most of my other DVD players used 0 to +5 or so for both contrast and brightness. (sharpness looks good at -30 for most DVD players) It's one bright machine! On the video front, I like it above the Samsung 850, Panny S97, and Toshiba 4690 or whatever it was, and the Sony NS70. I do like the picture on my Pioneer 588 better though. Actually, the picture on the XBOX 360 looks alot like that of the Pioneer, but with no way to adjust the picture, I can't get it just right like I do with the Pioneer. Still, it's pretty impressive for what it is! (meaning if you don't have another progessive DVD player give it a try before buying a standalone device)

I do not think the standard DVE and Avia software is going to help calibrate for ATSC (ahem, HDTV) style of color processing. Those are both NTSC-only. You might want to get ahold of some captured from HDnet's Tuesday morning test patterns that people have posted on AVS before.

I wouldn't use the HD Net pattern as I have found video from my HD Tivo be much much brighter than the Xbox and Xbox 360. I'm not even sure video or photos streamed to the system would be the best way to calibrate it as they also may have different video processing rules applied to them.

Someone posted that the free NBA Live demo (available for download from Xbox Live) has a variety of video test patterns. However I went through all the options in the demo and couldn't find the patterns. Anyone know where these are, and if so, can you provide specific instructions for accessing them?

As best I can tell the 360 is using PC levels for its games. You can create a few simple patterns in photoshop or the like, save them as images such as .bmp on your PC, and then view them through the xbox 360 to have patterns to work with.

So far I just dialed in contrast and brightness for starters. When I have some more time I'll do a full grayscale calibration, although the colors currently look pretty on. Note that my brightness and contrast settings were just about where I had them for the original xbox.

Isn't that what I originally suggested? :)

Someone posted that the free NBA Live demo (available for download from Xbox Live) has a variety of video test patterns. However I went through all the options in the demo and couldn't find the patterns. Anyone know where these are, and if so, can you provide specific instructions for accessing them?


There is only a single calibration pattern on the LIVE 06 demo but it is pretty decent and it is in the "VIDEO SETTINGS" option .


----------- Jason

The test pattern in gotham racing works very well for setting brightness. There is a 'B' embedded in the black box of the grey scale image. Bump brightness until it just starts to appear. Solved the problem of the game being too dark right away.
I don't understand why you guys figure you need HD source test patterns. Video black and white levels do not change from NTSC DVD to HD. Gamma and grey point (D65) are the same for both. CIE coordinates for primaries are different but that is a function of your display, they are encoded in the same way in the video stream.
Any test pattern which uses video levels will give you completly hosed results for brightness, contrast, and gamma when you play actual games. It would solve the problem if Microsoft gave the option to expand video levels to PC levels (clip BTB and WTW data). For now you will need different brightness and contrast setting for playing video and games on the 360.

I can tell you one this for sure, DVD and Game output need completely different settings on the 360. On my 4805 I had to lower the brightness down to 32 and contrast to 60 for DVD using the THX optimizer. With games I need at least 50 on the brightness or dark areas are completely washed out. I will have to try the PGR cablibration, I haven't tried that yet. All I know is DVD and Game settings are going to have to be different, I hope MS fixed this with a patch or something.

Edit:
I tried the PGR test patters and need about 45 on brightness, 60 on contrast if I'm understanding it correctly. Am I supposed to get the B in the black level square to just dissapear, and the W in the white square to dissapear? Or am I supposed to still see the B and the W? I wish they game better instructions.

I can tell you one this for sure, DVD and Game output need completely different settings on the 360. On my 4805 I had to lower the brightness down to 32 and contrast to 60 for DVD using the THX optimizer. With games I need at least 50 on the brightness or dark areas are completely washed out. I will have to try the PGR cablibration, I haven't tried that yet. All I know is DVD and Game settings are going to have to be different, I hope MS fixed this with a patch or something.

Edit:
I tried the PGR test patters and need about 45 on brightness, 60 on contrast if I'm understanding it correctly. Am I supposed to get the B in the black level square to just dissapear, and the W in the white square to dissapear? Or am I supposed to still see the B and the W? I wish they game better instructions.

I'm glad I found this thread so I know it's not a problem with my display...I was having this same issue with my 360 and it was driving me nuts. I calibrated my display (Westinghouse 32" Flat Panel LCD 1366x768) using DVD Essentials which required me to lower brightness to 46, and I kept contrast at 50. When playing Project Gotham 3, blacks were crushed pretty bad! Actually, all games were looking pretty dark. So when I found the calibrator settings in PG3, I ended up having to raise brightness to 60 and lower contrast to 46.

I also tried copying the "brightness.wmv" video from the "ehome" folder on my MCE PC to a shared folder. I streamed this folder using the 360 MCE, and sure enough the settings I came up with using the PGE 3 calibrator were still valid. So bottom line, the 360 DVD player outputs a brighter image. Looks like I'll just have to change settings when watching DVDs.

I'm wondering if this problem could be solved by using the VGA cable? It would seem to me that the DVD player will have to output at whatever resolution you have VGA set at, obviously it won't be switching to 480p when in VGA mode. Would DVD output still be brighter than game output, in other words is the increased brightness a function of the DVD player itself?

... Am I supposed to get the B in the black level square to just dissapear, and the W in the white square to dissapear? Or am I supposed to still see the B and the W? I wish they game better instructions.

You want to adjust it so that the B is barely visible, and so that the W is visible to the point where just one click higher in contrast starts to cause some (or all) of the W to blend into the white background - when you find that point go back down one click in contrast (the idea is to set it at the point just before where some detail in the W starts to get lost).

I notice that once I set PGR 3 properly using the test pattern, brightness is still way too high in other games. For example, when I go into the test pattern in the NBA Live 06 demo, brightess is higher than it should be and I need to notch it down about 10 clicks to match blacker-than-black in the pluge. Is anyone else noticing this? Is PGR 3 just really dark? Why didn't they just add a brightenss or gama slider in the game options? That would have made things much easier.

...when I go into the test pattern in the NBA Live 06 demo, brightess is higher than it should be and I need to notch it down about 10 clicks to match blacker-than-black in the pluge. Is anyone else noticing this?....

Yes, I noticed the same exact thing. The thing is that I don't think that black is really a blacker than black, but rather, just black. I say this because its my understanding that the games on the 360 are using PC levels 0-255. This means that there is no black than black (0 = black).

What I simply did was use Photoshop to create a 1280x720 image with an all black (rgb 0,0,0) background. Then I created some boxes at rgb 1,1,1 and 2,2,2 and 3,3,3 etc.

I then used the MS Media Connect to access the image from the 360 off my PC. I did something similar for contrast. I adjusted the levels based on these patterns and they look good in the games. However when viewing with the NBA Live 06 pattern, these settings were too high as you found. So something is definitely off somewhere - I would think the approach I used with the generated test pattern would be more accurate but am unsure.

At any rate, Microsoft should consider adding a set of basic test patterns to the Xbox 360 dashboard. Afterall if they've established standards for custom soundtracks across all games and centralized other areas for developers, they should have centralized the video standards and provided a standard set of patterns that folks can use to calibrate their displays. After all the 360 is supposed to usher in the "HD era" in games. Ummm ok then, so where is my HDMI and 1080p output?! Ok, don't get me started on that one. :)

Could the game be setup for 7.5 for black? Or rather, that the RGB PC level is something other than 0 for black? I wouldn't be surprised at all if game developers knew nothing about this area of video.

lovingdvd, would you be willing to share those test patterns you created?

By the way, I just got home with the VGA cable and gave it a shot. I didn't have much time to test, but the first thing I did was set the resolution to 1360x768 and pop in a DVD. I wanted to see if the DVD would ouput at that resolution, but turns out the 360 locks resolution in at 640x480 when you play a DVD through the VGA cable. How cheap is that? Of course, the switch meant I had to go in and set the video position and timing all over again on my display. That would be a serious pain if I stuck with the VGA cable and had to reset my display every time I wanted to watch a DVD. I'll do more test later, but for now I think I'll stick with the Component cable at 720p.

Another thing I noticed...the first DVD I tried was Batman Returns, which is "copy protected". The DVD wouldn't play (although it worked fine through component). I then tried a different movie that worked, but of course the image was off so I had to do the "auto" setting on my display. But I wonder if so-called copy protected DVDs will not play through the VGA cable? Not sure why that would be, but I'll have to test more later.

That's wierd. Why would Microsoft prohibit some DVD's from playing across RGBhv? Component is just as unprotected as RGB. Sounds like either an anomaly or another asinine example at poor design/engineering.

Actually there are laws in the USA that do not allow for standalone DVD playback devices with VGA output . I am not sure why since PC's do it but never the less it does exist .


----------- Jason

Never heard of such things. Can you direct me accordingly? No wonder I was able to get someone to send me a $50 standalone from Canada that had RGBhv on it. I guess some twit thinks its more difficult to steal analog video from Component than RGBhv.

any updates on how to calibrate ? do the homemade test patterns work well?

lovingdvd, would you be willing to share those test patterns you created?

By the way, I just got home with the VGA cable and gave it a shot. I didn't have much time to test, but the first thing I did was set the resolution to 1360x768 and pop in a DVD. I wanted to see if the DVD would ouput at that resolution, but turns out the 360 locks resolution in at 640x480 when you play a DVD through the VGA cable. How cheap is that? Of course, the switch meant I had to go in and set the video position and timing all over again on my display. That would be a serious pain if I stuck with the VGA cable and had to reset my display every time I wanted to watch a DVD. I'll do more test later, but for now I think I'll stick with the Component cable at 720p.

Another thing I noticed...the first DVD I tried was Batman Returns, which is "copy protected". The DVD wouldn't play (although it worked fine through component). I then tried a different movie that worked, but of course the image was off so I had to do the "auto" setting on my display. But I wonder if so-called copy protected DVDs will not play through the VGA cable? Not sure why that would be, but I'll have to test more later.

Another 32" Westy owner with a 360 :cool: . I'm interested in the settings you have for the monitor while using the 360 via VGA. BTW, when playing Kameo, I only have a few lines missing on the left side of the screen due to 1360 x 768 versus the native rez of 1366 x 768, but while playing COD2 there appear to be even more lines missing and a couple on the bottom. Do you have the same experience and have you found a way to position the screen so that the pixel loss is even on both sides. Thanks! ;)

any updates on how to calibrate ? do the homemade test patterns work well?

I haven't calibrated for DVDs since I use a 720p upscaling player for that. Wish MS had that option, as I could use the 360 for that purposes...

Anyway, I have calibrated for gaming on the 360 and can say for sure that some games seem to use different black levels. This makes a true D65 6500 calibration difficult to do for all games, mainly because if you move brightness up and down a few settings you are inadvertantly also changing the grayscale. Fortunately the side effects from this slight and although not a true D65 calibration as you start moving contrast/brigthness around, its difficult to notice the change in color temp it causes. Plus IMO D65 calibration is not as important for gaming as it is for movies. Just as long as you are close your whites should look nice and white and all colors will following along.

Anyway, I have calibrated for gaming on the 360 and can say for sure that some games seem to use different black levels.

Which ones and how do you know? I have used the Gotham Racing pattern and every game looks fine with those settings (PGR3, COD2, Kameo, PD0, and the downloadable EA demos). The only one that looks off is Halo 2 in backward compatibility which oddly enough looks much better using my DVD settings I got using Video Essentials.


This makes a true D65 6500 calibration difficult to do for all games, mainly because if you move brightness up and down a few settings you are inadvertantly also changing the grayscale.

What kind of display do you have (CRT, LCD, Plasma, LCOS)? Unless one primary is clipping or running out greyscale should be independent of brightness setting.
Between my Xbox and DVI HTPC my greyscale measurements are nearly identical (DeltaE < 4) despite using very different brightness and contrast settings.

Plus IMO D65 calibration is not as important for gaming as it is for movies. Just as long as you are close your whites should look nice and white and all colors will following along.
For all we know most game developers leave their monitors on the 9600K out-of-the-box settings. :)

bump

I came across this issue yesterday when reading another thread, it was stated there that NTSC does not occupy the same color space as ATSC, so the calibrations for DVD that I did with AVIA work great for films, but my games were WAY too dark. I was running into barriers while playing PGR3.

I then remembered that PGR had a calibration graphic like others have mentioned previously in this thread...ran that and got the B and W barely visible, now the games are much more vivid for lack of a better term. Thankfully my Hitachi has a NIGHT and DAY mode, I saved my DVD settings to day, and my GAME settings to night...works fine for me.

I do wish MS had provided something in the dash to help calibrate though, something beyond a single graphic.

Another 32" Westy owner with a 360 :cool: . I'm interested in the settings you have for the monitor while using the 360 via VGA. BTW, when playing Kameo, I only have a few lines missing on the left side of the screen due to 1360 x 768 versus the native rez of 1366 x 768, but while playing COD2 there appear to be even more lines missing and a couple on the bottom. Do you have the same experience and have you found a way to position the screen so that the pixel loss is even on both sides. Thanks! ;)

You know, I actually ended up returning the VGA cable and didn't do any more testing. I just find that 720p through Component produces an excellent image with no need to have to keep re-adjusting and re-syncing, so I'm happy with it.

--.ran that and got the B and W barely visible, now the games are much more vivid for lack of a better term. Thankfully my Hitachi has a NIGHT and DAY mode, I saved my DVD settings to day, and my GAME settings to night...works fine for me.

If you adjust so that the W is just barely visible then you are pushing your display into heavy clipping. I would recommend adjusting your settings so that the B is barely visible, and the W is clearly visible especially if you have a plasma or CRT. A common piece of advise for people who do not posses calibration equipment is to set contrast at the point when white starts to look white and not grey.
BTW I use the Day and Night setting in the exact same way on my Hitachi. :)

I haven't calibrated for DVDs since I use a 720p upscaling player for that.

Actually I was about to recommend the use of a cheap upconverting player with AVIA or DVE to calibrate in 720p, 1080i, or whatever. I have the Samsung 841HD, and you can apply an HDCP-/region-free hack to it from the remote control to allow it to upconvert over component so that it passes blacker-than-black. Then you could pop in AVIA or DVE, upconvert to your favorite res, and calibrate to your heart's content. I'm pretty sure you can find the 841HD online for about $50 now, so it's a small investment if first-class calibration is important to you.

Hope this helps,
Scott

If you adjust so that the W is just barely visible then you are pushing your display into heavy clipping.Sorry, but I don't understand the reason for this statement.

At the point when you can't see the W is when your display starts clipping and then you back off off the contrast until it is just visible and you are no longer clipping.

It's just like using DVE to calibrate your grayscale.

Brightness and contrast will affect each other. So you should go back and forth adjusting the B (brightness) and W (contrast) a few more times until your satisfied that you have it as good as it will get.

If you adjust so that the W is just barely visible then you are pushing your display into heavy clipping. I would recommend adjusting your settings so that the B is barely visible, and the W is clearly visible ... :)

--- Correct , good points !

------- Jason

Sorry, but I don't understand the reason for this statement.

At the point when you can't see the W is when your display starts clipping and then you back off off the contrast until it is just visible and you are no longer clipping.

It's just like using DVE to calibrate your grayscale.

Brightness and contrast will affect each other. So you should go back and forth adjusting the B (brightness) and W (contrast) a few more times until your satisfied that you have it as good as it will get.

--- Well it should function that way but the pattern on PGR is not DVE/AVIA level calibration and it does produce over driven whites if you push it to where the "W" is just barely visible (I have used it on about 5 different displays and they all did the same thing with it) ;) .

------------- Jason

Actually I was about to recommend the use of a cheap upconverting player with AVIA or DVE to calibrate in 720p, 1080i, or whatever. I have the Samsung 841HD, and you can apply an HDCP-/region-free hack to it from the remote control to allow it to upconvert over component so that it passes blacker-than-black. Then you could pop in AVIA or DVE, upconvert to your favorite res, and calibrate to your heart's content. I'm pretty sure you can find the 841HD online for about $50 now, so it's a small investment if first-class calibration is important to you.

Hope this helps,
Scott


Actually that does not work because you would then be calibrating from a different source :( . Now if all levels from every device were exactly the same then it would be possible , but we all know how that goes living in an NTSC world ;) .

----------- Jason

--- Well it should function that way but the pattern on PGR is not DVE/AVIA level calibration and it does produce over driven whites if you push it to where the "W" is just barely visible (I have used it on about 5 different displays and they all did the same thing with it) ;) .

------------- Jason
Thanks for the clarification Jason. How did you guys come to the realization that the PGR3 pattern was overdriving the white levels and how many clicks do you back off with your 4805 ?

Also my apologies to rader as he knew about this issue also.

Should I be worried if I can't see this 'B' in the black area? I can manage to see the 'W' in the white box but for the life of me I cannot see the 'B'. I've adjusted picture and brightness (all the way up to full) and it still doesnt show up.

Hey guys this thread is great! I purchased a ViewSonic N2750W last night and i'm haivng some trouble calibrating it with the XBOX360. I've used the PGR3 adn NBA Live demo calibration screens but i'm not sure if I did it right. I can just barely see the B and barely see the W.

What's better to adjust first though? Brightness or contrast? I adjusted brightness first and ended up with 100 brightness/52 contrast. Also, does anyone know what "Fine Tuning" does and how it should be adjusted?

Another issue is i'm getting some aliasing/jagged edges in games. My TVs native display is 1280x720 so I thought at 720p everything should be smooth. Same thing happened with my friend's Sharp Aquos. What's the deal with this? I know the aliasing isn't in the game because it's not there on my SDTV CRT.

Any idea what could be causing that? Also, DVDs look pretty bad. I'm getting a lot of noise. I'm thinking about taking the set back, unless there's a solution to all of this.

hey, i just got my xbox 360 last night at midnight. im running it on my sony xs955 (CRT) in 1080i and it looks great, however i have a small problem. there appears to be a horizontal geometry issue, as the right side of the picture is getting clipped off. it's like i need to center the image, but i can't find the option on the xbox or on my tv to do so. anyone have any ideas?


I had the same problem on my Toshiba 50HX81. I was able to resolve it by playing with the overscan settings (which were actually just the Height and Width settings within the "Service Mode" of my TV). I can't help you out with your particular TV, but someone here or customer service or a professional calibrator might. Good luck

Thanks for the clarification Jason. How did you guys come to the realization that the PGR3 pattern was overdriving the white levels and how many clicks do you back off with your 4805 ?

Also my apologies to rader as he knew about this issue also.

Run PGR calibration as you would think it should be (using 480p) and then re-check it with AVIA/DVE (480p) and you should see the whites being over-driven ;) .

------------- Jason

Hey guys this thread is great! I purchased a ViewSonic N2750W last night and i'm haivng some trouble calibrating it with the XBOX360. I've used the PGR3 adn NBA Live demo calibration screens but i'm not sure if I did it right. I can just barely see the B and barely see the W.

What's better to adjust first though? Brightness or contrast? I adjusted brightness first and ended up with 100 brightness/52 contrast. Also, does anyone know what "Fine Tuning" does and how it should be adjusted?

Another issue is i'm getting some aliasing/jagged edges in games. My TVs native display is 1280x720 so I thought at 720p everything should be smooth. Same thing happened with my friend's Sharp Aquos. What's the deal with this? I know the aliasing isn't in the game because it's not there on my SDTV CRT.

Any idea what could be causing that? Also, DVDs look pretty bad. I'm getting a lot of noise. I'm thinking about taking the set back, unless there's a solution to all of this.


--- It is tough to calibrate a 600:1 display and expect it to produce good contrast , I have a 1200:1 (1366x768) LCD display and I am not really happy with the contrast ( just the nature of LCD ;) ) .

--- Usually you will adjust Contrast first and then move on to Brightness but it can be a balancing act , you should go back and forth a bit until you are satisfied with both settings .

--- You are seeing the sharpness difference between an analog SDtv and a digital HDtv so everything is more pronounced .

--- LCD's in general are noisy unless you go with something that has high contrast and low response time . I think the Viewsonic is a 12ms display so maybe try something with 8ms response or lower (and above 1000:1 Contrast Ratio) .

------------ Best of Luck ,
---------------- Jason

--- It is tough to calibrate a 600:1 display and expect it to produce good contrast , I have a 1200:1 (1366x768) LCD display and I am not really happy with the contrast ( just the nature of LCD ;) ) .

--- Usually you will adjust Contrast first and then move on to Brightness but it can be a balancing act , you should go back and forth a bit until you are satisfied with both settings .

--- You are seeing the sharpness difference between an analog SDtv and a digital HDtv so everything is more pronounced .

--- LCD's in general are noisy unless you go with something that has high contrast and low response time . I think the Viewsonic is a 12ms display so maybe try something with 8ms response or lower (and above 1000:1 Contrast Ratio) .

------------ Best of Luck ,
---------------- Jason

Thanks Jason! What kind of scares me is how the specs seem to be different for this monitor on different sites. Some say 600:1, others say 900:1. Some say 12ms, others say 8ms. I bought it based on the specs I saw originally (the better ones) but now it seems that may not be the case.

Is the aliasing normal? Are all HD LCDs like this?

Thanks again for all of your help :) I could probably live with the aliasing, but i'm disappointed with the DVD playback quality. I can still return the monitor, but i'm not sure if I should yet. :o

Thanks Jason! What kind of scares me is how the specs seem to be different for this monitor on different sites. Some say 600:1, others say 900:1. Some say 12ms, others say 8ms. I bought it based on the specs I saw originally (the better ones) but now it seems that may not be the case.

Is the aliasing normal? Are all HD LCDs like this?

Thanks again for all of your help :) I could probably live with the aliasing, but i'm disappointed with the DVD playback quality. I can still return the monitor, but i'm not sure if I should yet. :o
Oh, the aliasing is all XBOX 360. PGR 3 for example really only renders 1024-576 with 2XAA internally then upscales it to 720P for output. I'm a bit dissappointed with this console myself. :mad: It didn't matter if I played on 480P with sharpness all the way down, the aliasing was still there pretty much just the same.

I know this is a possible overkill solution and it doesn't take away from the mediocre scaling and deinterlacing of the console itself, but what would happen if you piped that 360 through a nice external video processor, like a DVDO VP30 or one of those Lumagens, for example?

Oh, the aliasing is all XBOX 360. PGR 3 for example really only renders 1024-576 with 2XAA internally then upscales it to 720P for output. I'm a bit dissappointed with this console myself. :mad: It didn't matter if I played on 480P with sharpness all the way down, the aliasing was still there pretty much just the same.

I noticed it the most on PGR3. I don't remember it looking so aliased on my SDTV but maybe i'm wrong. So I guess it's on the xbox360 side rather than my monitor :o

DVDs still look terrible for some reason, which is very disappointing.

I'm running one at a customers through the Lumagen VisionHDP via component that transcodes to the option RGBHV BNC output. At present I cant use the 720P setting because of a freeze dropping frames but Lumagen is working on a fix, the boxes are to new but it will come and all fixes are downloadable via their update site.
This might not be the Lumagen because others have reported seeing the same but I want to be sure. This doesnt happen all the time.

I pretty much found out what you guys have seen but I can tell you one thing, the 1080I is really clean with fantastic colors and a very deep image. I wasnt sure if the color space was actually HD or not but I tried both SD and HD and left it on HD. The Lumagen has endless flexability both on the input and output side. The display is a NEC XG1351LC CRT projector 120" diag. Im using the 7.5 level at present in the Lumagen.

You only have a full screen 4:3 in 480P mode but you can also select widescreen, the 720P and 1080I are widescreen only. I left the 480P setting in the Lumagen and projector but I used the Lumagen to upconvert to 600P, the Lumagen can be set to see 480P coming in but convert to 600P on its output. I could go higher with no problem but Im waiting for the 720P fix. Yes you can take 1080I to 1080P also then step down the output to match the bandwidth, most likely run 960P, I havent went that far into it as yet. I just adjust the Lumagens color settings to what I like, at present I run brightness 10 above default, contrast at default in the Lumagen.

The set up was very pre lim and I didnt spend a whole lot of time on it. Yes the DVD sucks with different levels but no need to use it so didnt spend time on that part yet. Ill most likely just upconvert that to what ever is needed to fill the height of the screen to get rid of scanlines. The Lumagen HDP is wideopen in what it can do and only limited now by my time.

Using this combination the customer e-mailed me to say his gaming has never looked as good and hes really happy with the results. Wait till its actually calibrated.....Doug
BTW: The Lumagen has internal test patterns.

Run PGR calibration as you would think it should be (using 480p) and then re-check it with AVIA/DVE (480p) and you should see the whites being over-driven ;) .

------------- Jason
That makes sense seeing as how my initial calibration with the PGR screen had my brightness at 58 and contrast at 33. In order for me to have to drop the contrast that much, the whites are surely being overdriven.

So after taking your advice and going back and using the PGR calibration screen again, I ended up with the brightness at 53 and the contrast at 36.

I'm running one at a customers through the Lumagen VisionHDP via component that transcodes to the option RGBHV BNC output. At present I cant use the 720P setting because of a freeze dropping frames but Lumagen is working on a fix, the boxes are to new but it will come and all fixes are downloadable via their update site.
This might not be the Lumagen because others have reported seeing the same but I want to be sure. This doesnt happen all the time.

I pretty much found out what you guys have seen but I can tell you one thing, the 1080I is really clean with fantastic colors and a very deep image. I wasnt sure if the color space was actually HD or not but I tried both SD and HD and left it on HD. The Lumagen has endless flexability both on the input and output side. The display is a NEC XG1351LC CRT projector 120" diag. Im using the 7.5 level at present in the Lumagen.

You only have a full screen 4:3 in 480P mode but you can also select widescreen, the 720P and 1080I are widescreen only. I left the 480P setting in the Lumagen and projector but I used the Lumagen to upconvert to 600P, the Lumagen can be set to see 480P coming in but convert to 600P on its output. I could go higher with no problem but Im waiting for the 720P fix. Yes you can take 1080I to 1080P also then step down the output to match the bandwidth, most likely run 960P, I havent went that far into it as yet. I just adjust the Lumagens color settings to what I like, at present I run brightness 10 above default, contrast at default in the Lumagen.

The set up was very pre lim and I didnt spend a whole lot of time on it. Yes the DVD sucks with different levels but no need to use it so didnt spend time on that part yet. Ill most likely just upconvert that to what ever is needed to fill the height of the screen to get rid of scanlines. The Lumagen HDP is wideopen in what it can do and only limited now by my time.

Using this combination the customer e-mailed me to say his gaming has never looked as good and hes really happy with the results. Wait till its actually calibrated.....Doug
BTW: The Lumagen has internal test patterns.

If my display is already ISF calibrated, TYPICALLY, how much calibration of the VP itself would I be looking at?

Did you all simply set the 360 to 480i/p and let the Lumagen handle all the chores, or did actually set the Xbox360 at 1080i?

I'd just be interested in knowing some more setup specifics and any other tips.

Great post! :)

Q,
For 480P output I selected it first in the 360 then programmed the Lumagen HDP to see 480 progressive in then output 600P (800X600) keeping the 4:3 format for full screen titles.
I could have ran this up to 1024X768 or beyond. I was using 1024X768 in the projector already for SD color space and it looked great on that memory but needed more time and I didnt have my colormeter with me that day. I didnt know the 360 was there yet, it came the first day of the release.

For 1080I I selected it at the 360 then programmed the Lumagen HDP to see 1080I input and also output 1080I. This let you use the the input color space SD or HD selectable and also what set up level to use 0 or 7.5. You can use the processor to set color levels to what you need. You can also choose pass-through.

The reason I did it this way is because I wanted a full screen on some of the titles and full screen is only offered in 480P output. With a large screen you have scan lines you need to fill vertically so you can dial in the vertical Hz to fill until you get scan lines just touching so its pretty flexable using on a large display.

I wish I had more time that day to play around with it more but I wanted to get the system up and check for problem areas which was a good idea, Lumagen got right on the 720P 'glitch' thing to run down a 360.

My next trip will be to install a SDI out DVD player moded by Lumagen, I have the option dual SDI inputs and it will free up the DVI input the DVD player is using now via the HTPC, I will then try the HD Tivo on the DVI input freeing up one of the component inputs. Kinda of fun having all the options this processor has.

At the Lumagen site you can look under the FAQs tab and get an idea of what this processor can really do with the calibration. Also take a look at the firmware upgrades that have been sent and you can see they have been keeping up on everything we have needed on a regular basis. Upgrade downloads are really easy. Great people there with great customer support. Doug

Q,
For 480P output I selected it first in the 360 then programmed the Lumagen HDP to see 480 progressive in then output 600P (800X600) keeping the 4:3 format for full screen titles.
I could have ran this up to 1024X768 or beyond. I was using 1024X768 in the projector already for SD color space and it looked great on that memory but needed more time and I didnt have my colormeter with me that day. I didnt know the 360 was there yet, it came the first day of the release.

For 1080I I selected it at the 360 then programmed the Lumagen HDP to see 1080I input and also output 1080I. This let you use the the input color space SD or HD selectable and also what set up level to use 0 or 7.5. You can use the processor to set color levels to what you need. You can also choose pass-through.

Nice! So you can have different profiles for even the same device, huh? Very handy!




The reason I did it this way is because I wanted a full screen on some of the titles and full screen is only offered in 480P output. With a large screen you have scan lines you need to fill vertically so you can dial in the vertical Hz to fill until you get scan lines just touching so its pretty flexable using on a large display.

Exactly! Nice!



I wish I had more time that day to play around with it more but I wanted to get the system up and check for problem areas which was a good idea, Lumagen got right on the 720P 'glitch' thing to run down a 360.

My next trip will be to install a SDI out DVD player moded by Lumagen, I have the option dual SDI inputs and it will free up the DVI input the DVD player is using now via the HTPC, I will then try the HD Tivo on the DVI input freeing up one of the component inputs. Kinda of fun having all the options this processor has.

At the Lumagen site you can look under the FAQs tab and get an idea of what this processor can really do with the calibration. Also take a look at the firmware upgrades that have been sent and you can see they have been keeping up on everything we have needed on a regular basis. Upgrade downloads are really easy. Great people there with great customer support. Doug

Definitely. If go this route at some point, it's either going to be with them or DVDO, most likely.

I think my only concern would be going HDMI-DVI at this point. My TV has an HDMI input and my DVD player and Sat. box both have HDMI outputs.

I know HDMI-DVI usually works, but if I can go all HDMI, so much the better I guess.

Definitely something to keep an eye on!

DaGamePimp, in another post you said that your tv reported the resolution on vga incorrect. Just as a followup, I checked on mine and it is reporting correctly at 1360x768 on my samsung lcd. Maybe it is some quirk with your display as you said.

DaGamePimp, in another post you said that your tv reported the resolution on vga incorrect. Just as a followup, I checked on mine and it is reporting correctly at 1360x768 on my samsung lcd. Maybe it is some quirk with your display as you said.

Thanks for the feedback . I actually have since corrected that issue and it was not the display ... a cheap VGA cable extension was to blame ;) .

---------------- Jason

I am pushing my MS VGA cable to a dreamcast vga box/passthrough myself.

PGR3 is weird on my 23 inch Sammy LCD. When it's incredibly dark, the game looks good (but hard to see during night races), and when the game is too bright, the detail is just horrible. My brightness is at 52. Is that bad?

Dumb question, but couldn't you play the Digital Video Essentials or AVIA through a Media Center PC and stream it upconverted to 720p in Media Center on the Xbox 360? I think I'll have to go give it a shot!

Dumb question, but couldn't you play the Digital Video Essentials or AVIA through a Media Center PC and stream it upconverted to 720p in Media Center on the Xbox 360? I think I'll have to go give it a shot!

Chris ,

--- Even if you could get that (streaming) to work it would not amount to a proper calibration due to the colorspace difference ;) (480i/480p is different than 720p/1080i) . What is needed is what I mention in the Pixel Mapping thread , 720p/1080i native HD calibration patterns (like those found on the DVHS version of DVE) .


------------ Jason

Someone tell me this -

why can't you use a static image for calibration?
Get a image like (link) http://www.itworks.com/hdtv/itworks-HDTV_720P.png
With that said, can't you use MCE (or XP Media Connect) to stream the image to the 360, and use THAT to calibrate your display?

...why can't you use a static image for calibration?...

You can.

Actually it is my understanding that a static image will not work since it gets resized (but then maybe this information is wrong ... will have to try it out and see) .

----------- Jason

Actually it is my understanding that a static image will not work since it gets resized (but then maybe this information is wrong ... will have to try it out and see) .

----------- Jason

Here's what I did. I created a simply test pattern at 1280x720 on Windows. I have my pj and X360 set to 720p. When I display the image it is at full screen. Only oddity is that the image viewer seems to start moving the image around sometimes - not sure what causes that by is annoying.

How do you create your own test pattern?

A static 1280x720p image seems to work , fits the screen perfectly so maybe calibration this way is possible after all . Now we just need some proper HD calibration patterns to use ;) .

--------- Jason

I have the DVE 720P D-Theater tape and the settings for it are pretty much exactly the same as the settings when I use DVE or Avia Pro via my Denon 5910. Both are feeding the PJ via HDMI. The only thing that is really any different is contrast by a few clicks.

Kris ,

--- Well that is promising info , thank you very much for your input (great to have somebody with your experience join in the discussion) . So it would seem that the HD colorspace does not make as much of a difference as one would think .
--- I don't suppose you know the folks that make DVE , or do you ? I wonder if we could get them to send us some free-use 720p test patterns (wouldn't have to be the same exact ones that are on the D-Theater tape obviously) .
--- Or maybe you know where we could score some basic 720p patterns without copyright concerns (for use in making a short WMV-HD calibration video for the 360) ?

---- Thanks again Kris ( still hoping we get to see you at one of our local meets sometime ;) ) .

------------ Best Wishes ,
--------------- Jason

Okay, here's what I've done, after much tinkering around.

I used Avia's Needle Pulse and Half-Gray Black bars patterns for all tests, and I'm pretty sure I've nailed it.

I also have an InFocus SP4805 pj, so I thought you'd be interested.

I use all three user presets for my projector, User 1 is for my Denon DVD-1600 DVD player, User 2 is for the Xbox 360 when it's playing Xbox games, and User 3 is for 720p gaming on the Xbox 360.

User 1, Denon DVD player:

Contrast: 40
Brightness: 48

User 2, Xbox games on the 360:

Contrast: 57
Brightness: 30

User 3, Xbox 360 games in 720p:

Contrast: 48
Brightness: 48


I calibrated my DVD player many times, using the Needle Pulse pattern to adjust White level under the point where any clipping begins. I then popped Avia into my Xbox 360 to fix the problem I was having with 480p and original Xbox game playback. I set white level to just below clipping, and brightness so that the left bar in the Half-Gray pattern was just barely visible.

Now, at first I was using the Denon's User 1 mode for my 360 games like PGR3. I then realized not every source is the same, so I decided to compare the test pattern from PGR3 in both 480p and 720p. After calibrating the 360's 480p with Avia, I looked at the PGR3 test pattern in 480p, and it was indeed correct. You want to make sure that the "W" in the white clipping portion doesn't "disappear" but simply doesn't start to fade. Make sure it stays distinct.

So, having seen that PGR3 was indeed correct compared to Avia in 480p, I booted the game up in 720p, and adjusted brightness and contrast in the same manner. Adjust brightness until you can just barely see the "B" and up contrast until right before the point where the "W" begins to lose distinctness.

Anyways, those are my SP4805 settings, I'm sure every projector is different, but try the method I suggested above, I think it's pretty accurate.

Thanks for the great input Dark , my findings were different however when comparing the PGR3 pattern to AVIA/DVE ( not just on the 4805 either , I calibrated 5 different displays from the 360 : 3 CRT based , 1 DLP , 1 LCD ) .

Maybe your numbers will work for other 4805/360 owners though :) .

-------- Jason

I also wanted to add something strange.

Original Xbox games on the 360 need to have the brightness level turned down by a lot. But sometimes you boot up an old Xbox game, and the brightness level is correct, compared to the 360 games.

I noticed this today on PGR3, I calibrated it just before, and when it booted up from my 360 dashboard, the brightness level was much, much too low. I restarted the Xbox and it went back to normal.

Keep this in mind.

subscribe

The 360 calibration issue is a developer problem there is nothing faulty with the hardware.Games developers are absolutley terrible when it comes to standardisation. Half the time the displays they do the end appraisals on take no consideration of either PC OR video levels . ( let alone both)

The 360 is a video device and as such any and all imagery displayed through it should correspond to video levels. The fact it often doesn't is symptomatic of how slack games developers are in this area. All those extra gamma and brightness adjustments they throw into the games wouldn't be necessary if the developers got their act together and just stuck with video levels. Those little sliders are a fairly damning inditement of how little confidence they have in creating images for a given standard.

Of course if they were even half clued up they could make imagery that looked acceptable when displayed for either standard..but they can't because they are a bunch of cowboys.

Sorry to revive this thread with a lame question, but could anyone elaborate on how to use the test pattern on the NBA Live 06 Demo? I've set brightness so the bottom rectangle in the upper left hand grey scale is barely visible. Is this correct? Also, how do I use the different color bars- I do have filters from my Avia disc if that helps. I actually performed an Avia calibration but I was beating my head against the wall because some areas of GRAW were just SO dark I would stumble around blindly trying to navigate some levels.

Sorry to revive this thread with a lame question, but could anyone elaborate on how to use the test pattern on the NBA Live 06 Demo? I've set brightness so the bottom rectangle in the upper left hand grey scale is barely visible. Is this correct? Also, how do I use the different color bars- I do have filters from my Avia disc if that helps. I actually performed an Avia calibration but I was beating my head against the wall because some areas of GRAW were just SO dark I would stumble around blindly trying to navigate some levels.

I don't know this answer, but I used the callibration in PGR3 and that was very helpful in getting the right balance. Now I don't stumble in the dark anymore.

Just an FYI. NHL 07 has a calibration pattern for blacks and for colors seperate.

I've tried the NBA Live demo test pattern (making the rightmost stripe of the 3 under the red just distinguishable) and while that looks right in that game, everything else is too dark.

I'll give PGR3 demo pattern a go.