The 2nd Official Infocus 4805 Thread. [Text View] - Page 14

Devedander

03-18-06, 04:21 AM

So tonight I was going to watch some downloaded LOST episodes (OTA HD copies so yes totally legal to distribute, I prefer with no commercials even if the res is a little lower) and the waterfall was really bothering me. No matter how many times I resynced and changed inputs on my receiver it was a no go...

The it hit me... my xbox is set to upscale everything to 1080i... my only other on input was the cable box also at 1080i...

Maybe switching inputs or resyncing isn't what clears it up, but rather switching resolutions that does...

So I changed my xbox to 720p and what do you know? Waterfall is gone! This is after multiple attempts at switching sources to other 1080i stuff and resyncing at 1080i so I am pretty sure it wasn't just a fluke.

So everyone else who said they saw this also said they didn't notice it during SD viewing, over the last few days, what limited SD viewing I have done (at 480i) seems to have been waterfall clear...

So maybe this issue is some people having issues with 1080i being scaled occasionally which is what I thought it was... Here is my reasoning (possibly flawed):

When scaling down the PJ has to combine lines from the higher res to get the output for the lower res. So let's say 1080i has 3.324 lines that have to be combined for every line of 480p (I am just making this up); now this is going to lead to issues kind of like showing slighly non native res forced on an lcd display (ie putting up a pc desktop that is not native 4805 res then showing it in 16:9 instead of native. Most pixels are indeed 1:1 because it's pretty close, but every few one pixel of data ends up taking up 2 pixels on screen to make everything fit right).

Now imagine these issues being visible on a horizontal basis rather than vertical. And imagine if the scaler somehow didn't keep they static (ie it wasn't always row 8 that got pinched, but rather as the interlaced fields came along it made it's best guess line by line that shifted one line up each field). This is all just guestimation but seems to work in my head.

The result might be a horizontal distortion as multiple scanlines are squished into one. If this somehow happened every few lines and repeated it could cause this waterfall I am seeing.

To test this I am setting my xbox and cable box to 720p (which scales better to 480p than 1080i does). So far all is good.

I may also try 480p as that should be a perfect fit.

I would appreciate it if others could test this... I have a motorola comcast cable box and an xbox as my main inputs and both can be set to 1080i (xbox during media play only). If it is just a part of the pj that would be good to know, but if a select few of us have this issue maybe we have bad connectors or bad parts otherwise and it would be good to get it fixed.

Appreciate any input and hope I didn't just jump to too big a conclusion.

DeerHunter

03-18-06, 08:42 AM

CAVU is there anyway to tell by looking ie..a different cap in place of the pic you posted. Or may it be identical LOOKING but be a better cap. If they were clones it would make since that the cap get a simple upgrade to cause less trouble all the way around. I'm assuming the worst though, but if I open the Ubid D1 and the cap looks different then the one CAVU posted I may dig further.

CAV!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Any reply to this? I'd like to know myself.

DeerHunter

03-18-06, 08:51 AM

I'm a tad surprised that after market and capitalism doesn't drive these down to the $99 range.

That'd be nice wouldn't it. The cost to make these darn things can't be anymore than 3 or 4 bucks, 5 tops! You can buy a 1000 watt halogen lamp that'll light up an entire parking lot for $5 bucks!

BFauska

03-18-06, 01:00 PM

I am sure that there is a serious markup, but the cost does come partially from the fact that these lamps are built to much tighter tolerances than a 1kw parking lot light. I don't care what the color temp is when I am walking to my car, or heating my lizard. The filament also has to be perfectly placed in the focal plane of the reflector, create relatively flat lumen output over it's life...etc. I am also sure that the housing being built into the setup (for optics and focal reasons) adds some to the price (if only from an assembly aspect because the plastic housing is certinally not expensive to make.) I think that the $50 dollar savings on the X2 is a sweet find , and I will be happy enough to hopefully save 15% when I eventually have to replace my lamp... whenever I get my PJ back from InFocus.

Obviously this is all just my opinion and is quite possibly if not PROBABLY flawed.

Later,
Brian

Bennan

03-18-06, 01:23 PM

Question:

WHY THE HELL CAN'T THEY MAKE A DVD PLAYER WHICH, WHEN OUTPUTTING A WIDESCREEN IMAGE, KNOWS TO AUTOMATICALLY "PILLAR" A 4:3 IMAGE SO IT ISN'T STRETCHED OUT ????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (When a DVD player is set for 4:3 output, it knows to put the "lettterbox" bars ABOVE AND BELOW the image. So why doesn't it work the other way???)

Why is it that when a DVD player is set to output a 4:3 image... like when I was using my good-old fashioned 27" 4:3 TV... a letterboxed movie was shown with a black bar above and below it and it was properly formatted for the TV... and when it was showing a non-anamorphic 4:3 documentary on the same disc, it would show it properly. In other words, effortless switching between two different aspect-ratio images WITHOUT HAVING TO PRESS ANY FRICKING BUTTONS !!!!!!!!!!

And, yet, with a high-end digital projector (my InFocus SP4805) I've had two different DVD players, now, outputting a widescreen aspect-ratio image (since the projector's native format is 16:9) and NEITHER DVD player can switch effortlessly between picture formats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If the movie is letterboxed/anamorphic, it looks fine. But if one of the documentaries on the disc (or the entire disc) is 4:3, then the image is stretched out and wonky looking. (Yes, that's the technical term in my vocabulary, "wonky".) I end up either having to switch to 4:3 output on the projector itself, which freezes the image and takes a second or two for each switch through about four or five different formats, and it might take 10 seconds to get it looking right.

I just got a brand new Samsung HD950 with EZ View, which I THOUGHT would fix the problem... and it does the SAME DAMN THING!!!!!!!! Now, at least, I can switch between aspect ratios using the DVD player itself (and not the projector) so it does the switching between visual formats a little quicker and doesn't freeze the image. But it is still a HUGE PAIN IN THE BUTT.

WHY THE HELL CAN'T THEY MAKE A DVD PLAYER WHICH, WHEN OUTPUTTING A WIDESCREEN IMAGE, KNOWS TO AUTOMATICALLY "PILLAR" A 4:3 IMAGE SO IT ISN'T STRETCHED OUT ????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is there such a beast??? Does anyone out there know of a DVD player that can do this????

cavu

03-18-06, 01:33 PM

I'd like to know myself.If C1022 is 1,000uf @ 16v and manufactured by KSD, change it! And use a higher voltage rating, ie. 35v or more.

Or wait. The cap will begin to degrade and the player will become schizy and ultimately stop altogether. Then change it.

But remember, it is not "IF", it is "WHEN".

Ja Phule

03-18-06, 01:33 PM

Bennan

03-18-06, 01:41 PM

Yes, there are quite a few dvd players that can do this including the Oppo, Bravo D1 (I think), and Panasonic S97/S77. I'd try searching for "pillarbox" in the dvd player forum.

Thanks a million. I will look into these. I'd purchased the Samsung HD950, but maybe will send it back and get the Oppo or the Panasonic instead. Can these players be made region free with a hack?

I'll be using component output, 480i and the 4805's deinterlacing, so don't need an upconverter or Faroujda processing necessarily. I'd also like a player that really handles burned DVD-R movies well. True DTS output, without a pass through. And DIVX, MPEG slideshows, MP3 playability would all be nice.

Any recommendations for which player I might prefer?

Thanks again.

Ja Phule

03-18-06, 01:50 PM

Thanks a million. I will look into these. I'd purchased the Samsung HD950, but maybe will send it back and get the Oppo or the Panasonic instead. Can these players be made region free with a hack?

I'll be using component output, 480i and the 4805's deinterlacing, so don't need an upconverter or Faroujda processing necessarily. I'd also like a player that really handles burned DVD-R movies well. True DTS output, without a pass through. And DIVX, MPEG slideshows, MP3 playability would all be nice.

Any recommendations for which player I might prefer?

Thanks again.

I'm mostly familiar with the Oppo and it can do everything you ask and is region free. People say the Oppo's component output isn't too great though as everyone should use DVI output with this player. The Oppo can pillarbox 4:3 content but I'd rather let the 4805 do the aspect ratio control. Try the dvd forum for other dvd player recommendations.

spyder696969

03-18-06, 02:11 PM

I don't really consider the bulb cost to be that big of a deal, and I average about 10 hours per day. Sure, who wouldn't want them to be <$100, but when you figure it up, it turns out like this:

Burn your bulb out in one year = 8.22 ave hours per day

$339/3000 hrs X 8.22 hours per day = $0.9288 per day.

OR...

3000 hours/1.75 hours per film ave = 1,712 movies per bulb

$339/1,712 movies = $0.198 per movie

So, there it is, for what it's worth. $1 per day or 20 cents per movie to watch on a big screen with excellent quality? I can't complain. Hell, even if I buy 5 bulbs in 5 years, I'm only out $1695, which is far less than a plasma or other "small" TV that will be far harder to get rid of for the next big upgrade. :)

Bennan

03-18-06, 02:16 PM

I'm mostly familiar with the Oppo and it can do everything you ask and is region free.

It's region free, but does the Oppo have a BUILT-IN Pal > NTSC Converter?

People say the Oppo's component output isn't too great though as everyone should use DVI output with this player.

I've heard a number of people say NOT to use the Oppo if your setup will not be taking advantage of its DVI output.

However, I've been using a generic crappy Yamakawa 238 and just tried out the Samsung HD950. To my untrained eyes... using output through component 480i with the SP4805 deinterlacer doing the work... the image is BEYOND beautiful. And I think I notice a SLIGHT improvement between the two with the Samsung, but it's really hard to say.

Would I really sacrifice image quality if using component with the Oppo, or would I be satisfied do you think???

Sly_Dawg

03-18-06, 02:50 PM

can anyone tell me if theatertek supports avi files?

if not, would zoom player work as theaterktek does, with the ability to load it up from within mce 'my movies'

cheers

spyder696969

03-18-06, 02:52 PM

Anyone have a relative opinion of the Optoma EP719 versus 4805? Local retailer has them for a pretty good price and my friend is wondering if he should pick one up after seeing my 4805.

Sly_Dawg

03-18-06, 02:54 PM

Bennan

03-18-06, 02:54 PM

Hey, everyone. I've been reading up on the Momitsu v880, and I have a few quick questions:

(1) Does anyone know what the difference is between the Momitsu DVD-v880 and the Momitsu DVD-v880-DX ???

(2) Can anyone who has actually used a Momitsu v880 or v880-DX confirm that it will do "pillarboxing" / 4:3 squeeze / 4:3 shrink ON THE FLY without having to press any buttons??? (This has become very important to me.)

(3) I'm reading that it will upconvert an image through component, is this correct???

Thanks ahead of time for your answers!!!
Bennan

cavu

03-18-06, 02:55 PM

WHY THE HELL CAN'T THEY MAKE A DVD PLAYER WHICH, WHEN OUTPUTTING A WIDESCREEN IMAGE, KNOWS TO AUTOMATICALLY "PILLAR" A 4:3 IMAGE SO IT ISN'T STRETCHED OUT ????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!My head hurts from all the shouting. Seriously.

But, to answer your question, I have never seen a DVD player that doesn't do what you ask.

If you set the "TV Type" on the DVD player to 16:9 and you set the projector "Aspect Ratio" to 16:9 and you then play a 4:3 DVD, in my experience, it has always displayed a 4:3 image with black bars on the sides.

cavu

03-18-06, 02:59 PM

I'm reading that it will upconvert an image through component, is this correct?Yes, as will the Bravo. Both use the same chipset and 'secret' menus. Having said that, I do not recommend using the component output of either one!

I don't know why anyone would buy either player only to use an analog interface. It's kinda like buying a car to impress your girlfriend and then pushing it through the streets instead of turning the engine on.

Bennan

03-18-06, 03:05 PM

My head hurts from all the shouting. Seriously.

Sorry. I'm just frustrated.

And if you really ARE getting a headache from looking at sentences typed in all caps, maybe you should get your eyes checked. :D

But, to answer your question, I have never seen a DVD player that doesn't do what you ask.

If you set the "TV Type" on the DVD player to 16:9 and you set the projector "Aspect Ratio" to 16:9 and you then play a 4:3 DVD, in my experience, it has always displayed a 4:3 image with black bars on the sides.

To answer your comment, I've never seen a DVD player that DOES what I ask.

Look up the threads, here, on pillarboxing. The VAST majority of DVD players out there do NOT do it. Yes, you can press buttons to make the switch manually. But I'm talking about discs, like "Serenity", just to use one example, where the movie is anamorphic and the extras are not. I end up having to either (a) adjust the aspect ratio output from my projector, or (b) adjust the aspect ratio output from my DVD player, to get a non-stretched 4:3 image.

It is extremely annoying that high-end DVD players and $1,500 projectors do not do what ANY Dvd player can do with a 4:3 television... adjust the image on the fly so that NO MATTER WHAT the aspect ratio of the image is, I don't have to watch it squished or stretched.

krasmuzik

03-18-06, 03:10 PM

Obviously this is all just my opinion and is quite possibly if not PROBABLY flawed.

Later,
Brian

There is very little dealer markup on lamps - and most dealers give up what little there is if your lamp went out as that is the best they can do. There is not a conspiracy here - just custom components for each model. Derivative, similar - of course when Bob the designer tweaks it here and there - but bottom line it ends up being a seperately manufactured SKU - which is more expensive than a generic part for all. Simple supply/demand economics at work. Would you prefer that Bob not tweak the projector? Then there would not be a IN72 and SP4805 - there would only be the X1. There is not a razor blade model going on here - if Infocus could be rid of the lamp they would - obviously the lamp is a barrier to widespread market adoption.

This is why RPTV is already moving to LED lamps which are longer lifed - but they do not have sufficient lumens yet for front projection. For your theory to hold true about profiteering manufacturers - they would be hanging on to the UHP lamps - because $500 ever thousands hours from millions of RPTV buyers is a much greater more profitable market. But the RPTV group is trying to shed the UHP lamp in favor of LED. The reason is to improve the lifetime costs of the product for the customer - at significant R&D costs to the companies bottom line.

Now something to biatch about is the price of a cable subscription - which at the top tier is $3 a day - which is way more than any lamp - and that does not count $4 PPV or $15 porn. But people pay it day in and day out!

cavu

03-18-06, 03:12 PM

Also, i have SMALL SQUARES filling up my image, which arnt really noticeable from far but are obviouly ruining the quality.I suggest you count the SMALL SQUARES.

If there are 409,920 SMALL SQUAREs in 854 columns of 480 SMALL SQUARES each, I recommend that you go the the Texas Instrument web-site (http://www.dlp.com/Default.asp?DCMP=TIHomeTracking&HQS=Other+OT+home_p_dlp&bhcp=1) and read about DLP technology.

http://www.dlp.com/dlp_technology/images/see_how_it_works.gif (http://www.dlp.com/Default.asp?DCMP=TIHomeTracking&HQS=Other+OT+home_p_dlp&bhcp=1)
If you have a different number of SMALL SQUARES, I don't know what they are.

Bennan

03-18-06, 03:14 PM

I do not recommend using the component output of either one!

I don't know why anyone would buy either player only to use an analog interface.

Well, for me it boils down to this:

I would be getting a DVD player that will have forward-compatibility for me. I always try to buy electronics that have capabilities my other electronics might not have yet. For example, I bought a TV with component inputs back when I only had a VCR. A couple years down the line when I bought my first DVD player, I DIDN'T have to buy a new TV. When I bought a receiver, I got one with DTS capability and 5.1 Surround Sound output when I didn't have a DVD player (yet) capable of outputting DTS and I only had stereo speakers. So when I DID buy a DVD player with DTS output and a 5.1 Surround Sound setup, I didn't have to buy a new receiver.

So.... buying an upconverting player, now, will give me more capability in the future if I need it. (And the upconverting players aren't THAT much more expensive than the non-upconverting ones, anyways.)

Also, my SP4805 will take DVI or HDMI inputs (with an adapter, of course) but right now I have my computer hooked up through the M1 port. In the very near future, I might decide not to use the computer with my projector or may come up with a cheap way of switching. Or I may try out the upconverting DVD player -- whichever one I end up buying -- with the SP4805 one time just to see what the image looks like... and be so impressed that I say, "Screw my computer, I'm using the digital connection for my DVD player !!!!"

So, does THAT explain why I would get an upconverting DVD player without using its full capabilities right away??? :D

cavu

03-18-06, 03:31 PM

Or I may try out the upconverting DVD player ... with the SP4805 one time just to see what the image looks like.And you would be using the "upconverting feature" to upconvert from what resolution to what resolution??

Bennan

03-18-06, 03:32 PM

And you would be using the "upconverting feature" to upconvert from what recolution to what resolution??

I'm talking about upconverting to 720p or 1080i from 480i or 480p. What other kind of upconverting is there?

Ja Phule

03-18-06, 03:36 PM

It's region free, but does the Oppo have a BUILT-IN Pal > NTSC Converter?

Yes, but do you need it to do that? The 4805 can accept 576 pal input just fine.

cavu

03-18-06, 03:44 PM

I'm talking about upconverting to 720p or 1080i from 480i or 480p. What other kind of upconverting is there?First: You are talking about playing DVDs on the SP4805. DVDs are 480i. The SP4805 is a 480 line projector. Do you need to convert 480 to 480. No.

Second: Is there a 720p or 1080i display currently available that does not already internally scale everything it sees to its own native resolution? No.

So your purpose in seeking an "upconverting" DVD player is for what, exactly?

Just curious.

Devedander

03-18-06, 03:46 PM

Devedander

03-18-06, 03:49 PM

Hi all,

I put in the new firmware and stll get flickering using the pj in low power mode, but when i switch to high power its fine. any ideas?

Also, i have SMALL SQUARES filling up my image, which arnt really noticeable from far but are obviouly ruining the quality. is this the 3-2 pulldown thing? if so how can i fix it?

Thank for the help

By flickering do you mean in bright or in dim images? Mine flickers kind of like candle light (sudden very fast dimness that is right back to bright almost right away) after 500+ hours in low power moded and 10+ in high power it still happens.

I am wondering what causes this...

gonelong

03-18-06, 03:51 PM

Today I finished mounting my 4805. I ran the DVI-M1 cable, a component and composite cable, and my 4805 power cord through a 2" PVC pipe. I now have a VERY loud hum/buzz coming from the projector when I watch any content over the DVI-M1 cable. If I play a DVD, no hum.

From a few quick searches it seems like I should probably seperate my DVI-M1 from my power cord, right?

The second solution would seem to be calling the cable company and having them determine if the cable has been grounded correctly.

Are there any other proposed solutions? I am not looking forward fiddling with my mounted projector, I have it EXACTLY where and how I want it now.

Thanks,

GL

cavu

03-18-06, 03:59 PM

I now have a VERY loud hum/buzz coming from the projector when I watch any content over the DVI-M1 cable.Are you saying this noise is coming from the speaker in the projector? Have you tried turning the volume OFF ("0") in the projector?

Devedander

03-18-06, 04:05 PM

There is very little dealer markup on lamps - and most dealers give up what little there is if your lamp went out as that is the best they can do. There is not a conspiracy here - just custom components for each model. Derivative, similar - of course when Bob the designer tweaks it here and there - but bottom line it ends up being a seperately manufactured SKU - which is more expensive than a generic part for all. Simple supply/demand economics at work. Would you prefer that Bob not tweak the projector? Then there would not be a IN72 and SP4805 - there would only be the X1. There is not a razor blade model going on here - if Infocus could be rid of the lamp they would - obviously the lamp is a barrier to widespread market adoption.

This is why RPTV is already moving to LED lamps which are longer lifed - but they do not have sufficient lumens yet for front projection. For your theory to hold true about profiteering manufacturers - they would be hanging on to the UHP lamps - because $500 ever thousands hours from millions of RPTV buyers is a much greater more profitable market. But the RPTV group is trying to shed the UHP lamp in favor of LED. The reason is to improve the lifetime costs of the product for the customer - at significant R&D costs to the companies bottom line.

Now something to biatch about is the price of a cable subscription - which at the top tier is $3 a day - which is way more than any lamp - and that does not count $4 PPV or $15 porn. But people pay it day in and day out!

I would be hard pressed to believe this is not the razorblade/razor method if for no other reason than that is the perfect spot to use it.

If it was true the lamps were all such custom deals that caused prices to go higher why is it that the only difference between teh X2 and the 4805 lamp is a tiny piece that is easily user swappable (as per above post) yet there is a $50 price difference?

If there is almost no markup, and the two products are almost identical (minus a small detail that MAYBE adds $2 to the manufacturing process) then what accounts for the $50 difference? Either the X2 bulb is LOOSING money (since 4805 is almost no profit and X2 is $50 less... then X2 is almost $50 less than no profit) or the 4805 is the only one profiting (X2 is no profit, then 4805 is $50 profit).

I don't believe either, I believe they both profit, but they know they have to mark down the older model slightly or else people will wonder how the new model could be better if it costs the same... and if it's not better than why buy it?

And I believe Bob even said the bulbs for all upcoming IF projectors are the same as the 4805 (and hence X2) lams... that doesn't say custom built, that says we made minor changes to keep the market up. It says they are working on the same model printer manufacturers are, change cartridge types fairly often even though they all basically function the same to keep the market buying new ones.

You got a new printer? Well darn, those cartridges you stocked up on for your old one won't work, but you can buy this newer model that has a little plastic lip on it that makes it fit for only 20% than the old ones are selling for in store now.

I can't speak for where the profit is made (dealer or manufacturer) but the price of bulbs is high across the board, and the quality of them (absolute 6500k etc) is not always high from all manufacturers... this in conjuntion with bulbs for other purposes that are near equal performance but maybe not quite as perfectly aligned etc just screems profit margin.

Sure the lamps for PJs have to be built perfectly aligned unlike lizard lights but how much do you think that adds in an assembly line (probably mechanized) factory environment? Almost nothing...

I have to admit I have no insider knowledge but logic dictates these are a big part of the profit equation.

smithfarmer

03-18-06, 04:06 PM

My xbox has no problems with this while the 4805 is set to native, however if I set the 4805 to 16:9 it stretches everything to 16:9 even thought the xbox puts out a 4:3 signal.

Hope that helps...
You do realize that the Xbox can be set to output a 16:9 image and most of the games from the last couple of years have a widescreen option. The only time you should have the 4805 in native mode is when you are using an HTPC or a DVD player that does 1:1 pixel mapping like the Bravo or Momitsu.

Sly_Dawg

03-18-06, 04:14 PM

By flickering do you mean in bright or in dim images? Mine flickers kind of like candle light (sudden very fast dimness that is right back to bright almost right away) after 500+ hours in low power moded and 10+ in high power it still happens.

I am wondering what causes this...

mine flickers for a short space of time like small flashes. it keeps happening but when i put it in full power it is okay. i dont know what to do. very annoying and thought the new firmware would help but it doesnt. even just using the desktop it does it (htpc), i donteven have to be watching a video or something.

gonelong

03-18-06, 04:18 PM

Are you saying this noise is coming from the speaker in the projector? Have you tried turning the volume OFF ("0") in the projector?

OMG! That was it! I wouldn't have guessed that in a million years. I have had the projector set at a volume of 19, unknowingly, for a few months now. I had honestly forgotten the 4805 even had a speaker in it.

I turned it down to 0 and, NO HUM! WhooooooooHoooooooo!!!!!!!

Many thanks,

GL

cavu

03-18-06, 04:39 PM

Many thanksWe win a few, we lose a few.

BFauska

03-18-06, 05:46 PM

booker21

03-18-06, 05:48 PM

mine flickers for a short space of time like small flashes. it keeps happening but when i put it in full power it is okay. i dont know what to do. very annoying and thought the new firmware would help but it doesnt. even just using the desktop it does it (htpc), i donteven have to be watching a video or something.
I have this problem as well... Lamp flicker.... i think it is... it is not that big deal since i notice only when i play the xbox and it does it sometimes, yesterday i played for 5 straigh hs and i didn´t have a problem with it.

spyder696969

03-18-06, 05:49 PM

Well, for me it boils down to this:

I would be getting a DVD player that will have forward-compatibility for me. :D

Uhhhh...HD-DVD and Blu-Ray? Coming much sooner than you think! If you're not going to be using a Bravo or Oppo NOW, there's no point in upgrading to anything other than a standard, quality player.

Or, stated along your lines: YOU DO NOT NEED A BRAVO OR OPPO IF YOU'RE NOT USING A DIGITAL CONNECTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Hear that?) :D

spyder696969

03-18-06, 05:52 PM

Let's admit it...the last thing that stayed the same/similar model for years with easily interchangable parts was old Chevy trucks. Then, the '80's came along, and now everything is disposable/replaceable/incompatible/not worth fixing when the new model is cheaper.

booker21

03-18-06, 05:52 PM

Bennan

03-18-06, 06:43 PM

First: You are talking about playing DVDs on the SP4805. DVDs are 480i. The SP4805 is a 480 line projector. Do you need to convert 480 to 480. No.

To my knowledge, no one on this board has EVER refered to converting 480 to 480. Don't even know what you are talking about. If you are trying to be funny, it isn't. And if you are trying to be condescending, you are doing a great job. :p

Second:Is there a 720p or 1080i display currently available that does not already internally scale everything it sees to its own native resolution? No.

So your purpose in seeking an "upconverting" DVD player is for what, exactly?

Just curious.

Well, other than the fact that I can't get a straight answer to any of my questions on this board... it seems there as many opinions as there are answers... I'm not 100% sure.

I've had people tell me that upconverting an image to a higher resolution and then having the 4805 downconvert it again (a) will make for a picture that is NOTICEABLY, amazingly better than just 480i, (b) somewhat better but not that huge of a difference, (c) no difference at all, and even (d) worse because of all the converting of the image. I have NO idea which answer is correct. Do you?

And I've already explained that an upconverting player is NOT my first priority because right now I will be using component cables to connect the DVD player to my projector. I've said that I would get an upconverting player to be future-compatible, like I always do when buying new equipment, and that the cost difference between a non-upconverting and a upconverting player is neglible... so why not get one?

DeerHunter

03-18-06, 06:52 PM

I suggest you count the SMALL SQUARES...

I'm sorry Cav, but I've been laughing at that for the past 5 friggin' minutes!!! :D

Bennan

03-18-06, 06:53 PM

I would have thought most DVD players would do this...

Nope. Almost none do. There's a seperate thread here in the forum that discusses the issue I'm talking about, and there are only 6-7 DVD players listed (so far) that do this. Here's the discussion:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=507200&highlight=4+3+pillarbox

To be more specific, they don't do it ON THE FLY and AUTOMATICALLY. Sure, if you want to get out the remote and press seven buttons every time the extras on your DVD go from 4:3 to 16:9 and back again, you can do it. :eek:

What is your pj set for? If it's set for 16:9 that may be the problem. Make sure it's set for native and your DVD player is set for a 16:9 display, then it should know to output signals right.

Nope. When the SP4805 is in Native mode, the 16:9 output -- from at least four different DVD players I've tried -- is squished into a 4:3 square, and 4:3 image looks fine. And when the SP4805 is set in 16:9 mode, 4:3 images are stretched out to fill the 16:9 rectangle and 16:9 images look fine.

I have to manually make the switch either at the projector or on my DVD player every single time.

Bennan

03-18-06, 07:08 PM

Uhhhh...HD-DVD and Blu-Ray? Coming much sooner than you think! If you're not going to be using a Bravo or Oppo NOW, there's no point in upgrading to anything other than a standard, quality player.

HD-DVD??? Blu-Ray??? What's that???

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh... you mean that whole stupid format war that is going to cause the medium to die a long, slow painful death like SACD and DVD-Audio??? Yeah, I think I heard something about that.

Wake me up in about a DECADE when the stupid, arrogant, shortsighted, greedy studio executives pull their heads out of their collective a****, will 'ya? :p

Oh, and, by the way, the so-called "early adopters" who jump on the band-wagon and start buying the ridiculously over-priced HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players and movies should remember a couple of things:

(1) All they are doing is ENCOURAGING said stupid, arrogant, shortsighted, greedy studio executives to keep pulling this CRAP on us over and over again. (Remember 8-track and cassette? How about VHS and Betamax? What about DVD and DIVX, that one wasn't too long ago.)

(2) The same early adopters chomping at the bits to get Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are the same ones who had to buy TWO HDTV-capable TVs because they jumped on the bandwagon so quickly, that they ended up with $10,000 HDTVs that don't even have HDMI or DVI.

Or, stated along your lines: YOU DO NOT NEED A BRAVO OR OPPO IF YOU'RE NOT USING A DIGITAL CONNECTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Hear that?) :D

I don't HEAR anything. I don't know about you, but I'M reading. :p

By the way, you guys have all been great! Most of my questions are getting answered... even if I am often having to explain myself more than once... and I really, really appreciate it! Thanks guys! :D

wes nance

03-18-06, 07:10 PM

To my knowledge, no one on this board has EVER refered to converting 480 to 480. Don't even know what you are talking about. If you are trying to be funny, it isn't. And if you are trying to be condescending, you are doing a great job. :p

Well, other than the fact that I can't get a straight answer to any of my questions on this board... it seems there as many opinions as there are answers... I'm not 100% sure.

I've had people tell me that upconverting an image to a higher resolution and then having the 4805 downconvert it again (a) will make for a picture that is NOTICEABLY, amazingly better than just 480i, (b) somewhat better but not that huge of a difference, (c) no difference at all, and even (d) worse because of all the converting of the image. I have NO idea which answer is correct. Do you?

And I've already explained that an upconverting player is NOT my first priority because right now I will be using component cables to connect the DVD player to my projector. I've said that I would get an upconverting player to be future-compatible, like I always do when buying new equipment, and that the cost difference between a non-upconverting and a upconverting player is neglible... so why not get one?

OK, you could cool it just a bit, I think. Your first post I saw on this board was an all caps rant, and now you're taking things personally.

I think what you're bumping into is the strong opinion on this thread that upconverting players for upconverting sake alone have no real use for us 4805 folks.

The OPPO is a good player because it has very solid deinterlacing/scaling/etc., but most of us that run one run it in 480p to the 4805. I've used 720p and 1080i, and didn't see any improvement.

The Bravo D1 is a great match to the 4805 because you can output the exact 1:1 pixel map image to the 4805 so it doesn't have to scale. We're not using that one to upconvert either.

That said, the Zenith 318 is a great player over component, and it just so happened that it had very fine performance over 1080i, which I was running to my 4805 with success. It would fill your bill. I have one I'm not using, PM me if you're interested. I'd have to check on whether it pillar boxed 4:3 material, but it's my recollection that it did. . .

Also, realize that an upconverting player would only be future compatible if it could handle the next gen dvd format. Since dvd resolution is so low, there is nothing you are covering yourself for in the future that is not already here, unless you are simply referring to the ability to connect over dvi rather than component. I don't see your past examples "future proofing" carrying over to this situation.

I hope this is a little helpful, and I hope that you realize that there is a lot of knowledge and wisdom on this board related to the 4805, probably more than any other place anywhere, so please be patient. . .

Wes

cavu

03-18-06, 07:14 PM

To my knowledge, no one on this board has EVER refered to converting 480 to 480. Don't even know what you are talking about.You said "I may try out the upconverting DVD player -- whichever one I end up buying -- with the SP4805 one time just to see what the image looks like". That certainly seems to infer that you wanted to "upconvert" something, but I'm very glad that we agree there is nothing to "upconvert". I've had people tell me that upconverting an image to a higher resolution and then having the 4805 downconvert ... I have NO idea which answer is correct. Do you?Yes. There cannot be any value added up "upconverting" to a higher resolution just to have a display device "downconvert" to its native resolution! Period. It would be like taking that sports car I mentioned earlier and placing a large rock on the accelerator pedal, then trying to drive and control the speed with the hand-brake engaged - a lot of smoke and a crappy driving experience.I've already explained that an upconverting player is NOT my first priority ... so why not get one?Because it has no value - it is mass-marketing hype. "Upscaling" should fall from "not my first priority" to "if its free I don't care that its included because I will never use it".

FYI: "Upscalers" had a purpose a long time ago, in a time of CRT displays and crappy analog interfaces. CRTs are already history and analog connections are close behind.

And to be perfectly clear: you do not want to use the component output of the Bravo or Momitsu for anything but a night-light.

Is your computer using a DVI or VGA connection to the M1-DA connector on your SP4805?

wes nance

03-18-06, 07:22 PM

That said, the Zenith 318 is a great player over component, and it just so happened that it had very fine performance over 1080i, which I was running to my 4805 with success. It would fill your bill. I have one I'm not using, PM me if you're interested. I'd have to check on whether it pillar boxed 4:3 material, but it's my recollection that it did. . .\

Hey, I'm quoting myself! :)

I just did a quick google check, and I don't believe the 318 will do 4:3 pillarboxing, sorry. . . my OPPO definitely does, though. . .

Wes

Bennan

03-18-06, 07:34 PM

OK, you could cool it just a bit, I think. Your first post I saw on this board was an all caps rant, and now you're taking things personally.

Hey, sorry. Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers with the "all caps rant". It was an all-caps rant because I'm just frustrated. You are correct that there is a lot of knowledge on this board... but that also means I'm getting a LOT of conflicting information.

Despite the "rant", I'm not mad at anyone here. I'm mad at the TECHNOLOGY. I just don't understand why ALL DVD players don't have the ability to convert the image on the fly. I mean, for crappy little 27" 4:3 TVs and 4:3 output from any $35 Dvd player you can watch ANYTHING and the image is correctly outputted to the TV.

But when you have a $1500 projector (not that I actually spent near that, more like half!) and a $350 or more DVD player, the picture is all messed up and squished and I have to press six or seven buttons on the remote every time I want to watch a documentary or a tv show. Seems silly to me.

The OPPO is a good player because it has very solid deinterlacing/scaling/etc., but most of us that run one run it in 480p to the 4805. I've used 720p and 1080i, and didn't see any improvement.

Thanks for your opinion on this subject! I appreciate it.

The Bravo D1 is a great match to the 4805 because you can output the exact 1:1 pixel map image to the 4805 so it doesn't have to scale. We're not using that one to upconvert either.

Unfortunately, right now I have my computer hooked up to my M1 port. So I'll be using component cabling for now. (And it's my understanding that the 1:1 pixel mapping is only good over a digital connection. Correct???)

That said, the Zenith 318 is a great player over component, and it just so happened that it had very fine performance over 1080i, which I was running to my 4805 with success. It would fill your bill. I have one I'm not using, PM me if you're interested. I'd have to check on whether it pillar boxed 4:3 material, but it's my recollection that it did. . .

Thanks for the offer. :)

What image formats can it ouput over component? I'm also looking for region-free capability with a built-in Pal > NTSC converter. DIVX, real DTS output, slideshow for stills, MP3, really good ability to hand burned DVD-Rs, would be nice too.

I hope this is a little helpful, and I hope that you realize that there is a lot of knowledge and wisdom on this board related to the 4805, probably more than any other place anywhere, so please be patient. . .

I know. And I appreciate all the help I get on this board!!!

But I wish some people would be more patient with ME, too. I'm not naming names, of course, but I've gotten some pretty condescending responses on this board. I'm learning a lot about a new technology that was a completely foreign language to me about a month ago.

But just because I might sometimes ask stupid questions does NOT mean that I'm stupid. :cool:

gonelong

03-18-06, 07:38 PM

We win a few, we lose a few.

Well, I am definately the winner here. I ran it for the last 2-3 hours on all inputs, zero humming issues.

:)

Thanks again,

GL

booker21

03-18-06, 07:39 PM

Bennan

03-18-06, 08:08 PM

There cannot be any value added up "upconverting" to a higher resolution just to have a display device "downconvert" to its native resolution! Period. It would be like taking that sports car I mentioned earlier and placing a large rock on the accelerator pedal, then trying to drive and control the speed with the hand-brake engaged - a lot of smoke and a crappy driving experience.Because it has no value - it is mass-marketing hype. "Upscaling" should fall from "not my first priority" to "if its free I don't care that its included because I will never use it".

Is this true even of upscaling over HDMI/DVI to the SP4805's M1 port???

I wish you had given me this answer a week or two ago, when I first asked about upscaling with the SP4805 over component. Even though I had no real technical knowledge to back it up, it kind of intuitively felt this way... that there would be no advantage to just upscaling only to have the image immediately downscaled again.

But, like I said, I've heard opinions... more than one... that contradict this opinion. And it ends up just confusing me. I don't know WHO to believe!

And like I said a few posts back, I don't really need the upscaling now, just thinking that if a player HAD EVERYTHING ELSE I WANT/NEED and also just HAPPENED to have upscaling, I would get it... for the sake of having more options in the future.

And to be perfectly clear: you do not want to use the component output of the Bravo or Momitsu for anything but a night-light.

Are you just saying that it is a waste of money to get the player and not use the DVI/HDMI??? Ot is the 480i component picture actually WORSE than the component out on other DVD players???

(Keep in mind I've only been using a crappy Yamakawa 238, before that an old non-region-free Panasonic -- don't remember the model number, but it was from like '98 ir '99 -- and I just tried a Samsung HD950.)

Is your computer using a DVI or VGA connection to the M1-DA connector on your SP4805?

Currently, I'm using a VGA connection. (My friend tells me that my graphics card also has a DVI connection, however.) Why do you ask?

Okay...

Right now, I'm leaning towards the Momitsu DVD-v880-DX... at the moment... subject to change moment-to-moment. Here's why, in descending order of importance to me:

(1) I can find it online at multiple sites, and it's not very expensive.

(2) It's region free. Very important to me. It has built-in PAL to NTSC and NTSC to PAL converters. It will output in PAL or NTSC. (I realize the SP4805 can project a PAl signal, but not all projectors and TVs can... so I want one with a built-in converter. What happens if my projector dies and/or I buy a replacement? Trying to keep my future options open.)

(3) It plays DVD-R and DVD+R, and I have a lot of burned discs so this is important to me, too.

(4) It can "pillarbox", according to what I've read in the threads here.

(5) It plays MPEG-4/DIVX discs. It will also support MPEG-1, MPEG-3, MPEG-4, MP3, and JPEG file types. A lot of players don't.

(20) Oh, and it supposedly upconverts the image through component... but like I've said a hundred times, that isn't a priority for me at all. Just trying to keep my future options open.

But if you tell me that the picture is HORRIBLE through component, like, actually WORSE than most other DVD players... I will continue my search. Sigh. :(

TXJoe

03-18-06, 08:17 PM

Has anyone encountered this problem?

When watching TV on my 4805 some channels appear much darker then other channels. It seems that the lower channels (1 thru 99) appear bright but channels above that appear dim. The only thing I think that is different between these lower and higher channels is that the lower are analog and the higher are digital, is this correct? Could this have something to do with it? Example: FOX news, very bright, Sopranos extremely dark. Is this something in the 4805?

Cable box is s-video
DVD is DVI

For the record, I resolved this problem by getting an HD cable box and connecting it with component cables. TV almost looks as good as a
dvd now.

Ja Phule

03-18-06, 09:02 PM

Bennan,
I'd still recommend the Oppo as it does everything you want including DTS decoding, 4:3 pillarbox and pal to ntsc conversion. You may even want to consider the soon to be released Oppo 970 that has better component output, hdmi, and sacd playback. I've tested component before on the Oppo and IMO, I didn't have any issues with it. I've considered the momitsu before but it didn't seem like a very reliable player and had a few issues of its own.

wes nance

03-18-06, 10:52 PM

Hey, sorry. Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers with the "all caps rant". It was an all-caps rant because I'm just frustrated. You are correct that there is a lot of knowledge on this board... but that also means I'm getting a LOT of conflicting information.

Unfortunately, right now I have my computer hooked up to my M1 port. So I'll be using component cabling for now. (And it's my understanding that the 1:1 pixel mapping is only good over a digital connection. Correct???)

No problem, you're trying to get to the bottom of something, I understand that. . .

Let me ask you this- if your computer graphic's card *does* have a dvi out, why don't you use your computer as an HTPC, you can 1:1 pixel map, have tons of flexibility for aspect ratio control/pillarboxing, etc., and basically not have to spend any more $$ than just a DVI to M1 cable (buy from monoprice.com).

If that's not an option, I would look into a standard 480i dvd player connected with component, using the 4805's Faroudja de-interlacer and scaler. Just make sure you do your homework and find one that pillarboxes 4:3 material like you're asking about. Should cost you less than $100.

Option #3 is to get a DVI switcher and keep your computer on the DVI, and also run a DVI dvd player, like OPPO, Bravo, Momitsu, etc. . .

As far as the Momitsu goes, you'll get excellent image quality, since you can 1:1 pixel map, and it does pillarbox, etc. Reliability has been an issue, though, they can be kind of flaky.

My choice in the last month has been the Bravo D1, look back a few pages for a lot of discussion about it. It has identical features to the Momitsu, and there are a couple places that seem to have it (again, read the earlier discussion) for less than $100. It was also considered flaky, but a simple $1.30 capacitor replacement seems to fix all of its problems (per CAVU, who is our Bravo D1 guru).

D1 also pillarboxes, so you would be set there. Mine is working fine, and looks amazing. I am going to replace the bad capacitor this week. . .

There are many, many people running 480i players over component, letting the 4805 do its thing, and the picture is very impressive.

Just to re-iterate, though, I would *not* spend the $$ for the OPPO, Momitsu or Bravo to run them over component.

Wes

wes nance

03-18-06, 10:54 PM

D1 also pillarboxes, so you would be set there. Mine is working fine, and looks amazing. I am going to replace the bad capacitor this week. . .

PS The Bravo also has a secret menu to make it region free. . .

nate358

03-18-06, 10:56 PM

Ja Phule I was wondering what your settings on the Oppo are? I've been outputting in 720p but after all CAVU said about upconverting, I wanted to try out 480P. It seems to me that when I set the Oppo to 480p it pillarboxs all 16:9 content. And in order to fix this I have to change the projector from Native to 16:9, which I don't really want to do. And concerning Bennan's issue with streching 4:3 content to 16:9... should I set the Oppo to Wide/sqz so that it plays 16:9 content 16:9 and 4:3 content with pillarboxs? One more issue that's a little off topic, but that you might know.... Do you have any idea what PBC is on the Oppo under the Preferene Page in Setup? It's default on but should I turn it off.... don't know cause I don't know what it is.

Ja Phule

03-18-06, 11:02 PM

Ja Phule I was wondering what your settings on the Oppo are? I've been outputting in 720p but after all CAVU said about upconverting, I wanted to try out 480P. I seems to me that when I set the Oppo to 480p it pillarboxs all 16:9 content. And in order to fix this I have to change the projector from Native to 16:9, which I don't really want to do. And concerning Bennan's issue with streching 4:3 content to 16:9... should I set the Oppo to Wide/sqz so that it plays 16:9 content 16:9 and 4:3 content with pillarboxs? One more issue that's a little off topic, but that you might know.... Do you have any idea what PBC is on the Oppo under the Preferene Page in Setup? It's default on but should I turn it off.... don't know cause I don't know what it is.

480p is 720x480. The 4805 at native for 480p will have borders on the side because 720x480 is within 854x480. I have the Oppo set to 480p with the 4805 at 16:9. I zoom in a little to fix the underscan issue. Set the Oppo to Wide/SQZ mode if you want it to pillarbox 4:3 material. PBC is an option for VCD playback AFAIK, it shouldn't affect DVD playback.

rrhomes

03-18-06, 11:38 PM

Bennan, the post you read about up converting may be/is good might have been by an owner of a PJ other than the SP4805. This thread is very specific to the SP4805 and all logic you read here is base on that assumption. IF you had a 720P PJ then there is/can be a benefit to a nice player like the OPPO that upscales to that resolution. The SP4805 is native 854x480 pixels and a Player/scaler that goes strait to that resolution is like the shortest distance between two points is a strait line. There ARE reasons to by a PJ that will up scale 480p to 720p but they are of no use for the SP4805. The OPPO rocks but there are better players out there for the 4805, the D1, D2 and a HTPC. Your not getting people giving you conflicting info they most likely are coming from a different angle than a SP4805 owner, if they are SP4805 owners then their info is incorrect. If I owned a 720P pj I would buy the best upscaling DVD player these boards inform me of, probably the OPPO. David

cavu

03-19-06, 01:10 AM

Is this true even of upscaling over HDMI/DVI to the SP4805's M1 port???Yes. Nothing in the logic changes. "Upscaling" is a crock in every situation I can currently think of, including 576i/p, 720p, 788 and 1080i displays.

Are you just saying that it is a waste of money to get the player and not use the DVI/HDMI? Ot is the 480i component picture actually WORSE than the component out on other DVD players?Yes it is a waste of money to buy a Bravo/Momitsu/Oppo and not use the DVI/HDMI. The component output of the three is nothing to write home about. If you are not going the DVI/HDMI direction, I recommend that you get a cheap, solid DVD player and use the 480i output and let the excellent deinterlacer in the SP4805 do its magic.Currently, I'm using a VGA connection. (My friend tells me that my graphics card also has a DVI connection, however.) If you are only using an analog connection from the computer to the projector, you are completely wasting the M1-DA port. Yank that VGA cable out of the M1-DA port and get an adapter to use it on your component input. Use the M1-DA port for DVI/HDMI on a one of the DVD players you are considering (the Bravo is both the cheapest and the best PQ).I'm leaning towards the Momitsu DVDThat's ok. Everything you just said also applies to the Bravo. The Oppo is an alternative, but an "also ran".

Bennan

03-19-06, 01:36 AM

Yes. Nothing in the logic changes. "Upscaling" is a crock in every situation I can currently think of, including 576i/p, 720p, 788 and 1080i displays.

I assume you mean it is a crock when in regard to the SP4805. If you or I had a TV player or a projector capable of displaying a true 720 or 1080 image, then upscaling WOULD noticeably improve the image. Not to true HDTV levels, I realize, but the picture would be better. Right???

If you are not going the DVI/HDMI direction, I recommend that you get a cheap, solid DVD player and use the 480i output and let the excellent deinterlacer in the SP4805 do its magic.

But, you have to understand that a cheap (though not necessarily solid!) DVD player is what I've been using up until now! I would like a DVD player that has all the features I've mentioned before... region-free with a PAL > NTSC converter; handle DVD-R and DVD+R, Divx, MPEG 1, 2, 3 & 4, true DTS output and not a passthrough, JPEG slideshow, MP3 capability, pillarboxing, etc.

Wanting all those features is how I ended up looking at the Momitsu and the Oppo and other players. Is there such a thing as a "cheap, solid" DVD player that can do all that???

If you are only using an analog connection from the computer to the projector, you are completely wasting the M1-DA port. Yank that VGA cable out of the M1-DA port and get an adapter to use it on your component input. Use the M1-DA port for DVI/HDMI on a one of the DVD players you are considering (the Bravo is both the cheapest and the best PQ).

Honestly, I was not aware the VGA is not a digital connection. My video games look GREAT. I figured I WAS taking advantage of the port! :rolleyes:

This is probably opening up a whole big can of worms I probably don't want to start on... :D ... but here goes: I heard that something called "Windows Media Center Edition 2005" does the pillarbox function. I don't know anything about HTPC... "Home Theater Personal Computer", I assume? I've heard the term a few times but haven't really given it much thought.

I do have a DVD-ROM on my computer. Assuming I upgraded to a DVI cable and started taking advantage of the M1 port, and turned my computer into a HTPC, wouldn't the biggest problem be that you'd have to use your mouse and/or keyboard to move around on the menus and to pause, search, etc. the image???

Seems like kind of a pain to me. Is there such a thing as a program or an electronic device of some kind, that you'd plug into a USB port, maybe, that would allow you to run your HTPC with a remote control???

I assume I'd be able to do 1:1 pixel mapping with the computer. But I don't know much about that, either.

........ sigh ...................... :rolleyes:

I really, truly do appreciate the conversation and the information about my projector that I'm getting on the site. I've said it before, and will say it again, but you guys are GREAT! But it seems like I keep complicating the issue every time I come to the board! LOL. And, yet, at the same time, I know that I am working towards a good conclusion... and that ultimately I'll have a great setup!

cavu

03-19-06, 02:04 AM

IF you had a 720P PJ then there is/can be a benefit to a nice player like the OPPO that upscales to that resolution ... There ARE reasons to by a PJ that will up scale 480p to 720p .... If I owned a 720P pj I would buy the best upscaling DVD playerDavid:

Sorry to rain on your parade but everything I have said about "upscaling" applies to 576i/p, 720p, 768, 1080i and every other resolution combination that exists. Specifically, every modern display already internally scales anything fed to it to its native resolution! What possible benefit can be achieved by scaling the signal external to the display device?? Particularily when some display devices re-scale it even if it already matches the desired resolution.

There are only four situations I can think of which are exceptions: where you are deliberately mismatching the pixel-map in order to use an amorphic lens (and even then some projectors already do that - including the SP4805 and the IN7* units); the the scaler of the display is an absolute piece of crap; you are feeding an analog display (CRT) which has no internal scaler; or you are using very long, lossy analog cables in which case there may be small benefit to upscaling while in the digital domain in the player rather than forcing the display to upscale from the crappy analog signal which reaches it.
The ideal situation would be for all source devices, DVD players, cable/satellite STBs, HD-players of all flavours, etc. to digitally output/pass through signals at their native internal resolutions and let the displays do single point scaling.

It would also be ideal that, where the resolutions of the source and the displays match, all scalers be defeated and digital 1:1 pixel mapping be allowed. Unfortunately, there are limited situations where 1:1 pixel-mapping is possible: 480 DVD/TV to 480 display (NTSC)
576 DVD/TV to 576 display (PAL)
720 TV to 720 display
1080p DVD/TV to 1080p display
There are some display resolutions, ie. 768, which have no matching native source and must internally scale every input. It is not possible to 1:1 pixel-map them to any current source.

I spent a career designing and manufacturing professional signal processing equipment for the broadcast and recording industries whose purpose was to fool audiences into believing there was "more" when in fact there was "less".

I am extremely familiar with the psychology involved - some of it, I created.

I have spoken at many, many broadcast and other professional conventions on these matters. And in the few occasions someone actually had the chutzpah in these public forums to ask what what the ideal signal processing chain would consist of, my answer was always the same: nothing.

It was always worth it just to see the eyes bug out of their heads, but it was also true.

Devedander

03-19-06, 02:06 AM

I don´t understand.. could you explain me what i can do to test this and what is the "conclusion?".

I don´t have comsat i only use the xbox on 720 and 1080 to try this HD and waterfall issues.

What i notice is 1080 is a lot fragile to get this waterfall than 720p is.

The only way i can get rid of them is changing resolution from 480 to 720 back and forth until the waterfall is gone. This apply to 1080 as well.

I didn´t try the Resync thing yet, you know, changing from 1 input to another.

What is exactly what i can try to help your theory... i don´t see what is new on your post?.. since we already know 480i/p didn´t have this waterfall and with a change of resolution, back and forth, we can "fix" the waterfall.

Sorry but I´m lost..

Sorry I should have been more clear:

My problem: Waterfall interferance effect

My desired resolution: No more waterfall interferance effect

My goal: Figure out where this problem eminates from and get it eliminated

So far: I was unaware that other people had already discovered that 720 seems to have less problems with it. I only recalled that mention was made of HD vs SD material.

It seems odd to me that not everyone sees this (considering the type of people around it seems that MOST people would be greatly offended by it if their PJs displayed this). So I wanted to make sure it's not just some other equipment of mine (reciever/cables etc).

Now I am pretty sure I have isolated it to being the projector and specifically the scaler in the projector.

I feel this is not acceptable, especially if it only happens to some.

What I wanted to know is if this is a case of a few bad batches of units, or an actual design flaw.

Either way I wanted to see if I can get it confirmed that it is a scaler problem and then address it with IF to see if they can fix it (if it's a design flaw then that's much harder to accomplish, if it's a few bad batches then repairs might be possible).

I am very happy with my projector when it works well but what with the almost constant flickering and this waterfall effect it really mars my enjoyment of my PJ and I would like it made right.

cavu

03-19-06, 02:06 AM

I assume you mean it is a crock when in regard to the SP4805. If you or I had a TV player or a projector capable of displaying a true 720 or 1080 image, then upscaling WOULD noticeably improve the image. Not to true HDTV levels, I realize, but the picture would be better. Right??? No.

Bennan

03-19-06, 02:11 AM

No.

O-k-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-y. That goes against everything I've read. Including a lot of quotes from people who've said that the picture is CONSIDERABLY better after upscaling.

I'll bite: Why wouldn't upscaling make the picture better???

cavu

03-19-06, 02:27 AM

Why wouldn't upscaling make the picture better???I believe I've already stated several times in the last page that every modern display already internally scales anything fed to it to its native resolution!

I'm tiring of this ... I've already presented all of these arguments.

Let's try this: You tell me why, in a general sense, you would expect the a scaler in the DVD player to do a better job than the scaler in the display.

Particularily on those displays which do not defeat their internal scaler even when the input resolution matchs the display (no "native" input mode).

nate358

03-19-06, 02:31 AM

480p is 720x480. The 4805 at native for 480p will have borders on the side because 720x480 is within 854x480. I have the Oppo set to 480p with the 4805 at 16:9. I zoom in a little to fix the underscan issue. Set the Oppo to Wide/SQZ mode if you want it to pillarbox 4:3 material. PBC is an option for VCD playback AFAIK, it shouldn't affect DVD playback.

Thank you! To me it seems to sqz 16:9 content more than 720x480 because everything looks tall and skinny, but that does make sence. I'll try it out.

Bennan

03-19-06, 02:35 AM

I believe I've already stated several times in the last page that every modern display already internally scales anything fed to it to its native resolution!

I'm tiring of this ... I've already presented all of these arguments.

Let's try this: You tell me why, in a general sense, you would expect the a scaler in the DVD player to do a better job than the scaler in the display.

Particularily on those displays which do not defeat their internal scaler even when the input resolution matchs the display (no "native" input mode).

Cavu, I've barely begun to read up on this stuff. I don't have the knowledge, nor do I have the vocabulary to keep up with you.

But I am not talking about an image being upscaled and then downscaled back to its "native resolution" like what would happen with the SP4805. I am talking about a TV which is a TRUE HDTV and capable of displaying a 720 or 1080 image. If an upscaler were to take the 480 image from a DVD player, and interpret the image to make it better, why couldn't it be improved???

Take a diagonal line being shown on a 480 resolution image. If the diagonal line were full of noticeable jaggies, and was created by 100 lines of resolution... then an upscaler would nearly double the number of lines of resolution showing that diagonal line. In other words, the same line is now showing up being drawn by 150 or 200 lines of resolution. It would look smoother.

Ergo, better picture.

Does that make any sense at all??? Like I said, I don't have the lingo to explain what I am trying to describe.

Bennan

03-19-06, 02:42 AM

A bit more.

I'm not positive... probably wrong here... but it seems that you think an HDTV automatically upscales a picture that is fed to it at a lower resoluton. Why and how would it do this?

That's like assuming that when you zoom in on an image, it will look just as good. If you zoom in on an image, it looks blocky and pixellated. Why wouldn't a 480 resolution picture displayed on a 1080 look like that?

Based on what little I understand about upscaling, the DVD player has the capability of outputting a 720 or 1080 image even if the source isn't 1080. So, no, they aren't true HDTV players... the picture wouldn't look as good as Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. But the picture, for those of us lucky enough to have a TV that has 1080 or 720 resolution, would look better than from a normal DVD player.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Have you actually SEEN an upscaled image from one of these DVD players played on a 720- or 1080-capable HDTV??? I must admit, that I haven't, but the theory sounds sound to me.

spyder696969

03-19-06, 03:04 AM

HD-DVD??? Blu-Ray??? What's that???

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh... you mean that whole stupid format war that is going to cause the medium to die a long, slow painful death like SACD and DVD-Audio??? Yeah, I think I heard something about that.

Wake me up in about a DECADE when the stupid, arrogant, shortsighted, greedy studio executives pull their heads out of their collective a****, will 'ya? :p

Oh, and, by the way, the so-called "early adopters" who jump on the band-wagon and start buying the ridiculously over-priced HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players and movies should remember a couple of things:

(1) All they are doing is ENCOURAGING said stupid, arrogant, shortsighted, greedy studio executives to keep pulling this CRAP on us over and over again. (Remember 8-track and cassette? How about VHS and Betamax? What about DVD and DIVX, that one wasn't too long ago.)

(2) The same early adopters chomping at the bits to get Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are the same ones who had to buy TWO HDTV-capable TVs because they jumped on the bandwagon so quickly, that they ended up with $10,000 HDTVs that don't even have HDMI or DVI.

I don't HEAR anything. I don't know about you, but I'M reading. :p

By the way, you guys have all been great! Most of my questions are getting answered... even if I am often having to explain myself more than once... and I really, really appreciate it! Thanks guys! :D

Hmmm. Seems like I heard this same rant when DVD came out. How long have DVDs been around now? How many years did 8-tracks survive? Cassettes? VHS? Isn't 20+ years enough? How is introducing superior technology greedy? :confused:

I suppose if we had it your way, we could all still have AM radios in our 50hp cars, be watching black-and-white TV, and much like in Demolition Man, all the restaurants in the world would be Taco Bell. Wow, just think, you wouldn't even be worrying about upconverting anything right now, since watching a movie at home wouldn't even be an option unless you lived in a theatre! What a fantastic world to live in. Monopoly...isn't that a board game? :o Competition breeds new ideas and drives prices down, period.

I guess every single person that buys a PS3 will never, ever use the Blu-Ray, since it will be a dying format. All 50,000,000+ worldwide that will eventually own one (if the numbers hold up like the PS2) will just skip that feature entirely. :rolleyes: When the alarm clock goes off in a decade as you wanted, be sure to chastize all 50 million people personally...right after you watch (with mouth agape) a movie on their system, of course.

Truth is, SACD and DVD-Audio didn't kill each other off. They just didn't matter to most people. Maybe 3-5% of the persons (audiophiles) that ever listened to one could tell the difference, but take any average Joe to a Best Buy or Circuit City and he can distinctly tell the difference between SDTV and HDTV, whether he understands it or not. :cool:

Oh, and since you're so intent on ranting on and on about early adopters, weren't you the one that said you were looking to buy future-ready technology? :eek:

Lastly, maybe you're frustrated, which is fine, but it's common knowledge that SCREAMING in this forum is not good ettiquette nor is it wise. I know it's different in other forums, but here, arguing with or mocking such long-time, respected and admired members such as Ja Phule or cavu (and many others) is pretty offensive to me. They have volumes of information to share if asked properly and should be afforded respect and courtesy at all times. I realize you are a newbie to the forum, but if you're remarks were meant in jest rather than seriousness, you should build a relationship with those you are mocking first. I had almost 1000 posts before I got friendly enough to use the "stick out tongue" icon with anyone.

Maybe I have been a bit condescending, so if you have taken offense, I apologize. But if you offer repect, you shall have it returned. Best regards.

cavu

03-19-06, 03:35 AM

it seems that you think an HDTV automatically upscales a picture that is fed to it at a lower resoluton. Why and how would it do this?Why and how would it do this? Man ...

OK. Let's start at the very beginning because it seems that some basics are missing:

THE OVER SIMPLIFIED TALE OF THREE DIGITAL PROJECTORS

480 DISPLAYThe InFocus SP4805 has a native resolution of 854x480. Period. This projector can only and will only display images in 854x480.

If you feed it a 854x480 1:1 pixel-map image from a Bravo/Momitso/SnaZio DVD player, the scaler in the SP4805 is disconnected and the DVD player drives the display directly - no scaling - no processing - no nothing.

If I feed a 720p or 1080i signal from my DVR to the SP4805, the internal scaler of the SP4805 takes that 720p/1080i signal and "downconverts" it to 854x480. That's the only way it can display an image. Everything fed to it must conform to or be downscaled to 854x480.
720 DISPLAYThe InFocus IN76 has a native resolution of 1280x720. Period. This projector can only and will only display images in 1280x720.

If you feed it a 480i/p image from a Bravo/Momitso/SnaZio DVD player, the internal scaler of the IN76 takes that 480 signal and "upconverts" it to 1280x720 to drive the display.

If I feed a 720p signal from my DVR to the IN76, the scaler in the IN76 is disconnected and the DVR drives the display directly - no scaling - no processing - no nothing.

If I feed a 1080i signal from my DVR to the IN76, the internal scaler of the IN76 takes that 1080i signal and "downconverts" it to 1280x720. That's the only way it can display an image. Everything fed to it must conform to or be upscaled or downscaled to 1280x720.
1080 DISPLAYThe Sony Ruby has a native resolution of 1920x1080. Period. This projector can only and will only display images in 1920x1080.

If you feed it a 480i/p image from a Bravo/Momitso/SnaZio DVD player, the internal scaler of the Sony Ruby takes that 480 signal and "upconverts" it to 1920x1080 to drive the display.

If I feed a 720p signal from my DVR to the Sony Ruby, the internal scaler of the Sony Ruby takes that 720p signal and "upconverts" it to 1920x1280. That's the only way it can display an image. Everything fed to it must conform to or be upscaled or downscaled to 1920x1080.

If I feed a 1080 signal from my new Blu-Ray DVD player to the Sony Ruby, the scaler in the Sony Ruby is disconnected and the Blue-Ray DVD drives the display directly at 1920x1080 - no scaling - no processing - no nothing.

I repeat, for the nth time, every modern digital display already internally scales anything fed to it to its native resolution.

Ja Phule

03-19-06, 03:49 AM

^^That is if it is a fixed pixel display (lcd, dlp, plasma). It's different for crts.

Bennan

03-19-06, 04:03 AM

Hmmm. Seems like I heard this same rant when DVD came out. How long have DVDs been around now? How many years did 8-tracks survive? Cassettes? VHS? Isn't 20+ years enough? How is introducing superior technology greedy? :confused:

No, introducing new technologies is not inherently a greedy thing. But the nearsighted format wars ARE. I notice that in your listing of technologies, just now, that you DIDN'T mention Betamax or (the original) Divx. Those are both examples of different companies releasing competing formats at the same time, which only led to confusion for the average consumer. They most definitely did not stick around for 20 years.

I suppose if we had it your way, we could all still have AM radios in our 50hp cars, be watching black-and-white TV, and much like in Demolition Man, all the restaurants in the world would be Taco Bell.

I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth. I am not anti-competition. And, in fact, despite my previous "rant" as you put it, I'm not even as mad about the format war as I am about the fact that they aren't going to let us send signals to our HDTVs over component video. I undersand that it has something to do with copy protection, but the bottom line is a LOT of people -- not me -- have HDTVs capable of showing a HD-DVD/Blu Ray image but will not be able to because they don't have HDMI or DVI. It just seems kind of short-sighted to block out your most loyal fans -- the early adopters -- just because of one factor.

And all the restaurants in the world would be McDonalds, not Taco Bells, if there was no competition. :D

I guess every single person that buys a PS3 will never, ever use the Blu-Ray, since it will be a dying format. All 50,000,000+ worldwide that will eventually own one (if the numbers hold up like the PS2) will just skip that feature entirely. :rolleyes: When the alarm clock goes off in a decade as you wanted, be sure to chastize all 50 million people personally...right after you watch (with mouth agape) a movie on their system, of course.

Truth is, SACD and DVD-Audio didn't kill each other off. They just didn't matter to most people.

You answered your own last paragraph better than I could have. I believe that the average joe will not care about the improved picture quality. Take it from someone who has worked at a public library for the last ten years. The "average joe" has only recently BARELY made the transition to DVD. And most of them, only because they HAD to because retailers and rental shops have all but stopped carrying VHS.

The average joe has a 25" or 27" 4:3 television and still gets ticked off because they have to watch "those movies that are missing part of the picture" (letterboxed films). The average joe isn't going to spend $1,500-$10,000 to buy a widescreen HDTV. And, I hate to break it to you, but the average video-game playing joe ISN'T going to have a tv capable of taking advantage of the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray picture coming out of a video game unit. Come on. We are talking about college-age kids and twenty-somethings making $7.50 an hour at Wal-Mart. Do you REALLY think that they are going to buy a $4,000 TV ???

Maybe 3-5% of the persons (audiophiles) that ever listened to one could tell the difference, but take any average Joe to a Best Buy or Circuit City and he can distinctly tell the difference between SDTV and HDTV, whether he understands it or not. :cool:

Yeah, maybe. But, like I said, the average person is going to be MORE than happy with DVD. Why are they going to spend thousands and thousands of dollars to get a better picture when they can barely take advantage of the current level of DVD technology.

I recognize that this argument does not INVALIDATE THE EXISTENCE of the technology. And a lot of people like you and, I admit it, me, will probably make the leap to HD-DVD/Blu Ray once we get HDTVs. But I really, truly think that we will be in the vast minority. I think that HD-DVD/Blu Ray will always and forever be a niche market only used by videophiles. I predict that it will have a bigger market saturation than LaserDisc, but it will never come even close to the market saturation that DVD has.

Oh, and since you're so intent on ranting on and on about early adopters, weren't you the one that said you were looking to buy future-ready technology? :eek:

First of all, it was not a "rant". Just because you don't agree with my opinion does not make it a rant.

And to answer your question, Yes, I am the one who said I try to buy future-ready technology. But I fail to see how that makes me an "early adapter". In every case, I waited to make sure what was going to be a technology that "stuck" and was not going to be a "flash in the pan". Maybe I'm more cautious than most people who post in this forum are, but I haven't wasted a lot of money buying... to use my own example... an HDTV that isn't compatible with DVI and HDMI. By waiting around and seeing what "the next thing coming down the tracks" is, I can make intelligent, knowledgable choices when I buy. When I do get around to buying my first true HDTV -- assuming I don't use my SP4805 forever -- it will have HDMI/DVI, even if I don't have a HD-DVD player yet. THAT is how I buy future-ready technology.

Lastly, maybe you're frustrated, which is fine, but it's common knowledge that SCREAMING in this forum is not good ettiquette nor is it wise.

Oh, so now I'm "screaming". Sheesh. I already have apologized, more than once, for using the all-caps. I'm sorry. Can we please move on???

I know it's different in other forums, but here, arguing with or mocking such long-time, respected and admired members such as Ja Phule or cavu (and many others) is pretty offensive to me. They have volumes of information to share if asked properly and should be afforded respect and courtesy at all times. I realize you are a newbie to the forum, but if you're remarks were meant in jest rather than seriousness, you should build a relationship with those you are mocking first.

For starters, I have not argued with Ja Phule or Cavu. I may have disagreed, yes, or perhaps questioned an opinion. But only because I am trying to figure out WHY they think the way they do. Yes, they have a HUGE volume of knowledge. I have already grown to respect and look forward to their opinions and posts. But I will not automatically take the word of ANYONE, ANYWHERE just because they say, "That's what I said. And that is the word of god." (Yes, I was the type to question even my own parents when they said, "Why? Because I said so, that's why!") It doesn't mean I don't respect them, I just like to know the underlying REASONS for saying what they are saying. It's empty knowledge to just automatically take someone's word for something without trying to get at the "why", as well.

To continue with your statement, I most definitely have NOT mocked Ja Phule or Cavu. If you believe I have, then I would like to see you quote me. Maybe I can explain what I meant. Again, tone of voice is very hard to understand sometimes in a forum or online (like in a chat room). That is why those smiley's are important.

Frankly, I think EVERYONE here should treat EVERYONE with respect... regardless of whether they are a newbie or a longtime poster. I'm not naming names, but QUITE A FEW of the posts answering some of my questions have been very insulting and patronizing. I've said this previously, but just because I ask a stupid question does not make me a stupid person. I truly believe that there is no such thing as a stupid question. If you don't know the answer, how else are you going to find out? And this is PARTICULARLY true for "newbies".

I had almost 1000 posts before I got friendly enough to use the "stick out tongue" icon with anyone.

Glad to hear it. The day that they disable certain smileys for use until a certain number of posts are made is the day that I will NOT use them. (Did that make any sense? Probably not.) I'm sorry, but it's my style. I joke around. I diffuse tense situations with humor. In my family, we teased each other mercilessly (sp?). I think the smiley's are there to be used. They are fun. They are funny. And they can give the reader some idea of the tone of voice that was intended while they are writing. Otherwise, it can be hard to interpret TONE.

No disrespect was intended by using the smiley with the tongue sticking out, I just meant it as a joke.

Maybe I have been a bit condescending, so if you have taken offense, I apologize. But if you offer repect, you shall have it returned. Best regards.

No offense taken. And I hope you don't take any offense from my "defense". We're all just debating and discussing things here. Maybe occasionally things might even get heated. Bottom line, we're all just expressing opinions, and sometimes we are going to disagree. :)

Bennan

03-19-06, 04:47 AM

Cavu,

I understand what you are saying. I truly do. But what I don't understand, then, is this: If a digital image is always upscaled or downscaled to the projector (or TV's) native resolution, then why are the broadcast companies bothering to broadcast HDTV images at all??? Why are the studios bothering to release HD-DVD or Blu Ray at all???

Let me TRY and explain what I mean. First off, let me specifically say that this entire post is in regards to a true HDTV or a projector capable of projecting an HDTV level image, either 720 or 1080. I am NOT talking about the SP4805, which I think we both clearly understand is only capable of projecting 854 x 480.

Okay. Here goes.............

An image comes to the projector/HDTV, that is either a SDTV image over a cable or a standard 480i image from a DVD player. You say that the projector/HDTV will take that image and automatically upscale it to the native 720 or 1080 resolution of the projector/HDTV. So why don't those TV's and projectors end up with a true HDTV-quality image when they receive a standard-tv-resolution image or DVD image? The answer is, that they DON'T. The image clearly is NOT true HDTV.

As further proof: Many people have commented on these boards that the difference in picture quality between SDTV and HDTV is HUGE. Many people on these boards say that the difference between a 480i DVD image and an HD-DVD or Blu Ray image is HUGE.

I have to assume that there is SOME measurable, noticeable, obvious difference between standard-tv-resolution picture -- even if it has been upscaled by the HDTV or projector -- and true HDTV. And I have to assume that there is some measurable, noticeable, obvious difference between the picture quality one would get from a 480i DVD image upscaled by an HDTV or projector and the picture that you get from true HD-DVD / Blu Ray.

So.

If there is a HUGE, noticeable difference between a true HDTV quality image and the image you get when a low-res image has been upscaled to the TVs/projector's native resolution... then... doesn't it seem possible that a DVD player could put out an image somewhere IN BETWEEN THE QUALITY OF THE TWO???

No, it would not be true HDTV quality. But it could be a better image than the TV/projector, by itself, is capable of generating from a normal SDTV / DVD. Why isn't this possible? Why do you automatically assume that there is no basis in fact for an upscaled image? I'm sure I'm not making any sense at all. :confused: Again, I don't have the knowledge or the lingo to explain something that I can somehow grasp in an abstract, intuitive way.

cavu

03-19-06, 05:53 AM

^^That is if it is a fixed pixel display (lcd, dlp, plasma). It's different for crts.Certainly that's true - see #3 in message 3363 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7333886&&#post7333886) above. I tried to infer that through reference to "modern displays" without clouding the issues. ;)

cavu

03-19-06, 08:24 AM

So why don't those TV's and projectors end up with a true HDTV-quality image when they receive a standard-tv-resolution image or DVD image? The answer is, that they DON'T. The image clearly is NOT true HDTV.Ahhh ...

I believe you are beginning to understand whether you realize it or not! ;)

The simple answer is that you cannot create gold from straw.

A 1080p image contains 2,073,600 (1920x1080) individual pixels, each containing different, original information. A lot of detail,

A 480p image contains only 409,920 (854x480) individual pixels, each containing different, original information. A lot of detail but only 1/5 as much as the 1080p image.

When the 480p image is "upscaled", each pixel in the 480p image is "copied" to a group of five pixels on the 1080p image which group of pixels represents the original one pixel.

The result is a 1080p image with 2-million pixels which can be displayed on a 1080p TV/projector, BUT the image only contains the same amount of information as the 480p image because the 1080p image actually contains 409,920 clusters of five pixels. All of the pixels in each cluster are identical.

But while all of the data from the 480p image is duplicated (x5) in the 1080p image, errors or "artifacts" have been created because there is not an "even" relationship between the two images.

I will try to demonstrate, within the limits of this message system. On the left is a small picture representing nine pixels of a 480p image; then I will try to upscale that image to 45 pixels of a 1080p format. The second group is similar except I am upscaling from 854x480 to a hypothetical 1708x960 resolution where 9 pixels upscale to 36 - a factor of 4 - an even number. You can see the difference!
··O ·····OO
·O· ·····OOO
O·· ···OO··· 1:5 upscaled (480:1080)
··OOO··
OOO····
OO······

··O ····OO
·O· ····OO
O·· ··OO··
··OO·· 1:4 upscaled (480:960)
OO····
OO····

·····O
····O·
···O··
··O··· A native 1080p image
·O····
O·····
So you can see that although an upscaled image is translated by some formula to the high def pixels, the resulting PQ is not as good as the original low res image and certainly not as good as a native high resolution image.

To get the full effect, get up from your computer and walk fifteen feet back and look at it from there. Then my "pixels" will be approximately the size they are on a 92" screen. ;)

Now before I get heavily flamed, I point out that there are many "techniques" and fancy math which can be applied to the "upscaling" process including dithering and modulation of the brightness to make the upscaled look less "rude" than in my example, but you get the point!? Right?

You cannot get gold from straw!!

tradewinds

03-19-06, 09:56 AM

Yep, I agree!! Great explanation.

wes nance

03-19-06, 10:28 AM

O-k-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-y. That goes against everything I've read. Including a lot of quotes from people who've said that the picture is CONSIDERABLY better after upscaling.

I'll bite: Why wouldn't upscaling make the picture better???

My theory is that some of the upscale players that people think look better are just better players, plain and simple, have much better core performance, no artifacts or y/c delay, etc., so they are sending a higher quality representation of the dvd resolution.

Take the OPPO, it gets very good scores, looks very good, but to me it looks about the same on the 4805 at 480p or 720p. I don't see any benefit to the *upscaling* on that dvd player, just the quality of the mpeg decoding and deinterlacing.

Take the Zenith 318. It only had one output resolution that was a high quality, and that was 1080i over component. The other output resolutions had red push, or y/c delay, or whatever, so people used the 1080i output and got good results. I certainly did on my 4805. But it was less about the upscaled resolution (since the 4805 had to downscale on its end) and more about the actual quality of what was being sent.

With both these players, the results could be seen on resolution patterns, color patterns, etc., etc., so it wasn't just a subjective wishing for it to be better.

Thats not to say that there isn't a significant factor of someone spending $$$ on their new upscaling dvd player and then seeing how amazing it is because of $$$ spent!

We are, though, getting pretty far off topic, especially since your last posts about upscaling were taking the 4805 out of the picture, and this is a 4805 thread. Maybe continue on PM, or migrate over to a dvd thread?

Wes

Bennan

03-19-06, 12:43 PM

Thanks, Wes and Cavu, for the discussion on upscaling. I agree we are getting off topic for this forum! And while I clearly bow to your superior knowledge, you have to realize that I am also talking theoretically, since I've never seen an upscaled image. I really don't know what I'm talking about, because I haven't seen an actual "upscaled" image. It's very, very possible that Cavu is right and the masses are deluding themselves. He certainly makes a strong argument with his graphical comparison.

However, I remember reading once that with enough statistics and math and complicated formulas, a good mathmetician could prove that an elephant can hang from a cliff by it's tail. I still think that there is at least a CHANCE that the picture could be improved. The bottom line for anyone with an upscaling player is to just LOOK WITH THEIR OWN EYES and decide if they think the picture is better.

Yes, the player itself would most likely be a higher quality player and account for some of the picture improvement they are seeing. But I kind of doubt that the people who are seeing an improvement are NOT going back and forth between 480 and 720/1080 on their DVD players, comparing the picture.

But enough on this subject. Thanks again!!!
Bennan

mprover

03-19-06, 12:53 PM

Bravo D1 on the way ! I also aquired a geforce 4 TI 4200 w/ dvi out to replace my aging geforce 2 ultra. Yeah, I know, Im still 2 generations behind. Is it even worth it to try to set up my PC as a HTPC with the geforce 4? Im sure my processor (AMD 3.0 Ghz) and ram (1.5gb) is enough.

oh, and if every restaurant in the world was taco bell, id be cool with it. I just cant go back to B&W tvs (or anything under 80 inches diagonal)

booker21

03-19-06, 01:01 PM

Sorry I should have been more clear:

My problem: Waterfall interferance effect

My desired resolution: No more waterfall interferance effect

My goal: Figure out where this problem eminates from and get it eliminated

So far: I was unaware that other people had already discovered that 720 seems to have less problems with it. I only recalled that mention was made of HD vs SD material.

It seems odd to me that not everyone sees this (considering the type of people around it seems that MOST people would be greatly offended by it if their PJs displayed this). So I wanted to make sure it's not just some other equipment of mine (reciever/cables etc).

Now I am pretty sure I have isolated it to being the projector and specifically the scaler in the projector.

I feel this is not acceptable, especially if it only happens to some.

What I wanted to know is if this is a case of a few bad batches of units, or an actual design flaw.

Either way I wanted to see if I can get it confirmed that it is a scaler problem and then address it with IF to see if they can fix it (if it's a design flaw then that's much harder to accomplish, if it's a few bad batches then repairs might be possible).

I am very happy with my projector when it works well but what with the almost constant flickering and this waterfall effect it really mars my enjoyment of my PJ and I would like it made right.

Oh ok, i get it.

Yeah this is what i always though i mean, maybe it is a problem with the Pj, i have warranty until july so i want to know this as well...

I don´t want to send the projector to then realize the problem wasn´t the projector but on the other hand i don´t want to hold the pj if is not working right.. but i can´t seem to find an answer for that...

I don´t want to risk sending the PJ under warranty for a few reasons, first, i don´t know if the Pj is faulty for real, 2nd i don´t want to risk the pj to other kind of problems by sending it under warranty.

Anyways... i´m still waiting to see if i find the answer... i have a few month to decide what to do.

Did u tough on sending the Pj to IF ? you being in US could be a lot easier to do... you may think of that... once more we may have a faulty Pj after all..

Bennan

03-19-06, 01:22 PM

Okay, thanks to all the help on the board, here, I'm starting to narrow things down for my setup:

I think I am going to get a Momitsu v880-DX player (from a site that has it for around $200), and I'll get a DVI to InFocus M1 adapter so that I can 1:1 pixel match the image. Then I'll get a DVI to Component adapter (or an AVG to Component adapter) and use that connection to hook up my computer to my SP4805. Bottom line for me is that I'm more into movies than I am into playing video games, so why use the highest quality input on my SP4805 for games and relegate my DVD player to the Component input!? Just doesn't make sense for me. :rolleyes:

I do have a few questions about the 1:1 pixel mapping with the Momitsu, since I've never pixel-mapped before... and about using the computer to component connection...

(1) When using 1:1 pixel mapping, is the player still capable of being a region-free player??? (In other words, if I put a R2 Pal disc in and the player has to convert the image to NTSC, will it still technically be pixel-mapped at all? Will the player still put out a picture automatically? Or will I have to change settings on the projector or DVD player to put out the image properly?)

(2) When using 1:1 pixel mapping, will the player still pillarbox??? (In other words, will I still be able to change from 4:3 to anamorphic letterboxed images on the fly with a disc that has both formats? And/or if I were to use a 4:3 disc -- like an old tv series -- would the player just do it's thing, or would I have to change settings on the projector or DVD player to have it put out the image properly?)

(3) Similarly, when using 1:1 pixel mapping, if using the DVD player to put out some other video format, like a 4:3 VCD, will the player put out the image automatically??? Or will I have to manually change settings?

(4) I would assume (since my computer's graphics card has both outs) that a DVI to Component adapter would put out a better quality computer screen image than would a VGA to Component adapter. Is this correct??? Does anyone have an idea if either of these would be comparable (or perhaps even better?) than what I'm using right now, which is VGA to the M1 port???

Thanks for all your help, guys! My setup is going to be so much better when I'm done. :D
Bennan

krasmuzik

03-19-06, 02:03 PM

Why and how would it do this? Man ...

If I feed a 1080 signal from my new Blu-Ray DVD player to the Sony Ruby, the scaler in the Sony Ruby is disconnected and the Blue-Ray DVD drives the display directly at 1920x1080 - no scaling - no processing - no nothing.[/indent]

I repeat, for the nth time, every modern digital display already internally scales anything fed to it to its native resolution.

1080P is probably the only exception to your rule. There are no 1080P sources yet - we will be lucky if we get 24f 1080P with Blu-Ray - probably more likely 1080i (but a good deinterlace converts the frame rate and interlace properly). There are also many 1080P displays that will not take 1080P - they only take 1080i!

So in these cases an external scaler is necessary. Other reasons for an external scaler is remote inputs single wire to the projector, better videophile analog processing, better digital signal processing, better aspect control. In otherwords - overcome shortcomings of projector scalers. But of course none of these reasons apply to an upconverting player!

So to restate cavu's point RESCALING harms the image. Period. Of course some AVSers are not able to tell that a softer image or an aliased image is not better - so they confuse different with better. This is why you hear of anecdotal evidence that a upconverting player is better. Try to find a calibrator with proper reference gear and test DVDs that will tell you the same - certainly will not find me saying this!.

It is nothing more than a marketing gimmick trying to convince people to upgrade their 7yr old DVD players for something new - with the fears that their old one does not produce HD for their HDTV. And the sad thing is as soon as you get off this forum - you find those up-scaling video players plugged into the composite video port - which is the very port they figure would not be used except in emergency situations - so the quality is worse that the $20 480i player at the supermarket!

In the future the best DVD/display combo that you can buy will be ones that support the digital component 480i over HDMI - with the rawest signal you can get from the MPEG decoder. In the past the professional SDI modifications were used to tap that - so hopefully the marketers do not corrupt this pure HDMI digital signal on it's way out the door.

krasmuzik

03-19-06, 02:14 PM

03-19-06, 02:15 PM

spyder696969

03-19-06, 02:41 PM

I suggest you count the SMALL SQUARES.

If there are 409,920 SMALL SQUAREs in 854 columns of 480 SMALL SQUARES each, I recommend that you go the the Texas Instrument web-site (http://www.dlp.com/Default.asp?DCMP=TIHomeTracking&HQS=Other+OT+home_p_dlp&bhcp=1) and read about DLP technology.

http://www.dlp.com/dlp_technology/images/see_how_it_works.gif (http://www.dlp.com/Default.asp?DCMP=TIHomeTracking&HQS=Other+OT+home_p_dlp&bhcp=1)
If you have a different number of SMALL SQUARES, I don't know what they are.

If you only have 409,919 squares, then there's something seriously wrong with your projector, so make sure to count each one carefully! ;)

Devedander

03-19-06, 02:43 PM

Bennan my take on upscaling and why it's not good overall goes along with your diagonal line example above:

Take a diagonal line being shown on a 480 resolution image. If the diagonal line were full of noticeable jaggies, and was created by 100 lines of resolution... then an upscaler would nearly double the number of lines of resolution showing that diagonal line. In other words, the same line is now showing up being drawn by 150 or 200 lines of resolution. It would look smoother.

Ergo, better picture.

This is absolutely true!

And this would make upscaling awesome... if all you watched were pictures of diagonal lines...

Apply this same theory to small detailed objects of odd shape without any simple defining borders (99% of what is in camera shots) and you simply end up with lost soft detail.

If you get HDTV and you watch ESPN HD you will notice a lot of their stuff is 4:3 upscaled content. It always has a super soft, kind of blurry look to it. This is upscaling in action. It is the process of a computer trying to figure out what was there. Sometimes (with diagonal lines) it's right, many times it just fudges and the result is not really better but "softer".

Watch the same content at original res and before upscaling and it certainly looks more defined and more natural.

At resolutions as high as TV a watcher may think the picture quality is better because there are no jaggies, but in reality you are trading jaggies for lost detail. This is akin to turning up the brightness and contrast, at first glance it seems good but with close examination it may not be so great.

What does upscaling accomplish: Removes jaggies and softens picture

What does it not accomplish: Adding actual information to a picture (ie improving it's quality)

HDTV is the process of having more REAL information which is a sharp detailed image.

Upscaling is the process of removing detail in favor of smoothness... basically anti aliasing.

Sly_Dawg

03-19-06, 02:58 PM

Ja Phule

03-19-06, 03:07 PM

T-Bone

03-19-06, 03:09 PM

I hope you're not saying in #3 that upscaling on a CRT has no value. I can easily demonstrate an improved picture on a CRT set with an excellent internal scaler (Pioneer Elite) when I toggle between nonscaled 720x480 and upscaled 1440x960 on my HTPC. It's not a huge improvement, but it's certainly worth doing.

Then you fall into exception #2: "the the scaler of the display is an absolute piece of crap." "Absolute pice of crap" is a relative term. The HTPC scaler is superior to the Pioneer, hence the Pioneer scaler is the crap.

-T

appleseed

03-19-06, 03:21 PM

I personally subscribe to the theory that, video much like audio, is very much subjective. You can ask for advise per your situation via other peoples experiences, but ultimately its what looks and sounds good to you. ( be damned what everyone else thinks. :D ) If you have an opportunity/inclination to do so EXPERIMENT. I personally have to let my budget dictate whats appropriate for me. :rolleyes:

03-19-06, 04:06 PM

Then you fall into exception #2: "the the scaler of the display is an absolute piece of crap." "Absolute pice of crap" is a relative term. The HTPC scaler is superior to the Pioneer, hence the Pioneer scaler is the crap.The Pioneer Elite is considered to have one of, if not the finest scaler of any CRT RPTV. If the Pioneer Elite's scaler is considered crap relative to a modest HTPC using off-the-shelf player software you might as well say that every CRT set's scaler is crap and every CRT can benefit from halfway decent external upscaling.

That seems to be in conflict with the blanket statement of CRTs only needing scaling if they didn't already have an internal scaler.

T-Bone

03-19-06, 04:18 PM

The Pioneer Elite is considered to have one of, if not the finest scaler of any CRT RPTV. If the Pioneer Elite's scaler is considered crap relative to a modest HTPC using off-the-shelf player software you might as well say that every CRT set's scaler is crap and every CRT can benefit from halfway decent external upscaling.

That seems to be in conflict with the blanket statement of CRTs only needing scaling if they didn't already have an internal scaler.

Again, crap is a relative term. That's why there is no clear cut answer for anyone asking if upconverting players provide a better picture. It all depends on the equipment one is using. In your case, the answer is yes, you will benefit from an upscaling player.

Exception #3 states: "you are feeding an analog display (CRT) which has no internal scaler." So you cannot apply rule #3 because your CRT has a scaler. You fall under rule #2 :)

-T

03-19-06, 04:29 PM

I think I'll wait for the person who made the original statement to logically explain what he meant instead of settling on a convoluted attempt to validate his statement.

T-Bone

03-19-06, 04:37 PM

What I posted was clear!

But as I stated already, and has been stated thousands of times here at AVS, it all depends on the equipment one is using. If the player's scaler is better than the display's scaler, use the player's scaler, and vice versa. It's not rocket science.

No need to wait on the other guy to explain... go with my advice!

-T

cavu

03-19-06, 05:09 PM

Will a change in refresh rate help me or is everyone only talking about dvd tweaking?No it will not help your TV viewing and yes, we are mostly referring to 24fps film-based DVDs.I am in the UK so tv is pal = 50hz. So will my tv signal go to the 4805 as 50hz regardless of the refresh rate i choose for my htpc?Yes.We're referring to changing refresh rates on capable DVD players and HTPCs. The refresh rate for your TV viewing is determined by your TV source, whether it be a VCR, OTA tuner, cable STB, etc.

Have you finished counting those little squares yet?! I really don't want you coming out of your room till you've finished that! Your supper will wait.

Thanks for being a good sport! Do you understand what/why the little squares are?

krasmuzik

03-19-06, 05:09 PM

I hope you're not saying in #3 that upscaling on a CRT has no value. I can easily demonstrate an improved picture on a CRT set with an excellent internal scaler (Pioneer Elite) when I toggle between nonscaled 720x480 and upscaled 1440x960 on my HTPC. It's not a huge improvement, but it's certainly worth doing.

cavu is not really talking about upscaling for CRT - he is talking about rescaling for fixed pixel devices. Unless you scale to a 1:1 pixel map at the source - there is no point to an upscaling device. And there certainly is no point to upscale only to downscale.

cavu

03-19-06, 05:20 PM

I hope you're not saying in #3 that upscaling on a CRT has no value.No - I was generally excepting CRTs from my discussion.

CRT displays is the ONE area where external scaling can be a real asset. Your limitations and bonuses in the analog CRT world are completely different. Infinitely different. <=[Joke]

BTW, I did not intend to be composing the new 10 commandments and, hence, did not submit my draft to the legal department!

03-19-06, 05:20 PM

cavu is not really talking about upscaling for CRT - he is talking about rescaling for fixed pixel devices. Unless you scale to a 1:1 pixel map at the source - there is no point to an upscaling device. And there certainly is no point to upscale only to downscale.I completely agree with him about the fixed pixel devices. I was just questioning his reasoning with regard to CRTs since he brought it up.

03-19-06, 05:22 PM

No - I was generally excepting CRTs from my discussion.

CRT displays is the ONE area where external scaling can be a real asset. Your limitations and bonuses in the analog CRT world are completely different.

BTW, I did not intend to be composing the new 10 commandments and, hence, did not submit my draft to the legal department!Ok, I was just wondering why you brought up CRT at all since many people do believe that even sets with good scalers do benefit from upscaling. I was surprised to see its benefit on a Pioneer. But as I said, it's just slightly better, not night and day better.

cavu

03-19-06, 05:56 PM

you find those up-scaling video players plugged into the composite video port - which is the very port they figure would not be used except in emergency situations - so the quality is worse that the $20 480i player at the supermarket!My favourite version of the "You can dress them up but you can't take them out" scenario is my twit friend who bought a Pio 50" 720p plasma which I think cost him about $7K.

He has it hooked up to the Ch 3 RF output of the telephone company's digital TV STB which is limited to 4:3 SD. Looks like total crap. He also uses the 'stretch mode' - all the time.

He thinks it looks wonderful.

:confused:

PS. He also cruises malls in a Hummer. I figure that pretty much sums him up.

Martin Butler

03-19-06, 06:12 PM

When discussing audio, upsampling cannot change the resolution of the original source, but yet the process does indeed improve the sound of CD's (generally). Is it not possible that the same thing might apply to video? I don't upsample to my 4805 because 480p looks better to me, but I'm glad that my OPPO DVD player has that capability, just in case I go 720p and the upsampler is better in the OPPO.

03-19-06, 06:21 PM

When discussing audio, upsampling cannot change the resolution of the original source, but yet the process does indeed improve the sound of CD's (generally). Is it not possible that the same thing might apply to video? The reproduction device for audio is analog, a speaker, so I don't believe the same concept applies to fixed-pixel, digital video devices. But as discussed above, I believe it does with analog video devices such as CRT.

dmcdayton

03-19-06, 06:55 PM

JeffKB (or anyone)

While we are offtopic, is there any consensus on a reasonably priced, good quality component switch? I recently bought a PS2 for my wife to work out with DDR and I'd like to get the best quality I can, Svideo looks just ok.

Manual switch is fine. I checked RadioShack and Compusa today but neither carried one according to staff who checked inventory.

I thought these were fairly common but guess not.

Edit:

Yes I searched on the forum but didn't see exactly what I want. Here is the closest I have found from RAM
http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/40-814.html

but its only 50mhz...looking for 100mhz. Need video only since old receiver handles audio just fine. The guy at RS claims their remote control switcher is not what I am looking for.

JeffKB

03-19-06, 07:46 PM

Hi dmc,

I don't know if it's in your price range, but I use the Inday (http://www.inday.com/rgb4x/rgb4x.htm) 4x1 switch and have been very satisfied. It's bandwidth is 230MHz, so it meets your 100MHz requirement, although I'm not sure anything over 50MHz really gets you anything.

Here's some more info:

http://www.inday.com/reviews/rgb4x-review.htm

Most people seem perfectly happy with the cheaper switches like the Pelican however. When put to the oscilloscope though, it just doesn't offer the same performance as the amplified switches like the Inday or Videostorm. Common thought is that you'd be hard pressed to see the differences on screen with a 480p display however.

The reason I like the Inday is I know I won't have to worry about my switcher being a weak point when I trade up to 720p, when differences may be noticeable (at least with HD content.) :)

spyder696969

03-19-06, 08:01 PM

Anyone have a relative opinion of the Optoma EP719 versus 4805? Local retailer has them for a pretty good price and my friend is wondering if he should pick one up after seeing my 4805.

Anyone? I think this might question have gotten lost somewhere around the time that the "Official InFocus 4805 Thread" turned into "The Official Upconverting DVD Player Thread."

therealgeno

03-19-06, 08:02 PM

Bennan

Why not just use the HTPC as your DVD player? TheaterTek cost less that the players you look at - and will give you the best picture. Then no need to compromise the digital part for DVD vs. games.

I was wondering this the whole time I was reading this "little war." And, this is again, one of the reasons I support and recommend TheaterTek for HTPC use. And you can 1:1 pixel-map. And you can post-process in a thousand different ways (but usually a little here, a little there).

Bennan, if you want control, and I mean COMPLETE control or AR's, then TT is your choice. The AR Editor is a huge tool in TheaterTek. You can do anything with it, and it will do anything for you. In fact, it may be TOO much control for you! ;) It will do what you are asking for easy, plus you can on the fly changes and save them. You can make any AR you wish!

Yes, you can use a remote (in fact, my brother-in-law got me one for Christmas), and TT comes with the remote files - just have to export the files -> very easy.

What video card do you currently have?

therealgeno

03-19-06, 08:09 PM

I cannot get 48hz 848x480 using powerstrip for my Radeon HTPC (i have dvi)

I can choose 848x480 at 60hz or 75hz from the card options.

I mainly use this htpc for web, tv and avi files. Will a change in refresh rate help me or is everyone only talking about dvd tweaking?

I am in the UK so tv is pal = 50hz. So will my tv signal go to the 4805 as 50hz regardless of the refresh rate i choose for my htpc?

Cheers

If you are using powerstrip, then why are you choosing resolutions and refresh rates from the card and not powerstrip?

There are two ways to do this:

1. Go into to "Advanced TIming" in powerstrip and manually type in 47.952Hz and see if it sticks.

2. Better way is to search in the Original Thread for "DaGamePimp's Timing Parameters" and copy the first set of numbers. The paste them to the clipboard in powerstrip. The you need to go into "User Definable" resolutions and select your new resolution.

If you want 50Hz, I suggest you look in the pre-defined resolutions in powerstrip and see if it offers a 50Hz timing for you.

jkim5453

03-19-06, 08:54 PM

The reproduction device for audio is analog, a speaker, so I don't believe the same concept applies to fixed-pixel, digital video devices. But as discussed above, I believe it does with analog video devices such as CRT.

When you look at the frequency domain, oversampling effectively places signal aliases further apart (aliases are mirror images of signal that occur at higher frequencies due to finite, circular nature of digital signal processing), which allows for "gentler" lowpass filters (reconstructive filters) at the output of digital-to-analog conversion. Takes a lot of harshness out of the high-frequency components in audio signals.

I know. Off topic. Spank me. ;)

joe

rrhomes

03-19-06, 09:37 PM

David:

Sorry to rain on your parade but everything I have said about "upscaling" applies to 576i/p, 720p, 768, 1080i and every other resolution combination that exists. Specifically, every modern display already internally scales anything fed to it to its native resolution! What possible benefit can be achieved by scaling the signal external to the display device?? Particularily when some display devices re-scale it even if it already matches the desired resolution.

There are only four situations I can think of which are exceptions: where you are deliberately mismatching the pixel-map in order to use an amorphic lens (and even then some projectors already do that - including the SP4805 and the IN7* units); the the scaler of the display is an absolute piece of crap; you are feeding an analog display (CRT) which has no internal scaler; or you are using very long, lossy analog cables in which case there may be small benefit to upscaling while in the digital domain in the player rather than forcing the display to upscale from the crappy analog signal which reaches it.
The ideal situation would be for all source devices, DVD players, cable/satellite STBs, HD-players of all flavours, etc. to digitally output/pass through signals at their native internal resolutions and let the displays do single point scaling.

It would also be ideal that, where the resolutions of the source and the displays match, all scalers be defeated and digital 1:1 pixel mapping be allowed. Unfortunately, there are limited situations where 1:1 pixel-mapping is possible: 480 DVD/TV to 480 display (NTSC)
576 DVD/TV to 576 display (PAL)
720 TV to 720 display
1080p DVD/TV to 1080p display
There are some display resolutions, ie. 768, which have no matching native source and must internally scale every input. It is not possible to 1:1 pixel-map them to any current source.

I spent a career designing and manufacturing professional signal processing equipment for the broadcast and recording industries whose purpose was to fool audiences into believing there was "more" when in fact there was "less".

I am extremely familiar with the psychology involved - some of it, I created.

I have spoken at many, many broadcast and other professional conventions on these matters. And in the few occasions someone actually had the chutzpah in these public forums to ask what what the ideal signal processing chain would consist of, my answer was always the same: nothing.

It was always worth it just to see the eyes bug out of their heads, but it was also true.

Well then you may need more experience in interpreting the meaning of what peoples are asking. The gist of what Bennan wanted to know was is there any possible reason someone may upscale, and not a lecture on display devise limitations or semantics. You guys are posting on something so simple. One wants basic answers and to learn a little, the others wants to be sure no one makes a single misstatement regarding how the technologies work.

You got to realize he's using the term UPSCALING as a catch all for - every possible effect a good dvd player may have on an image(You don't like people to do that..well ok). I knew thats what he meant right off, he only had 10 post. #Unless your display devise has a crappy scaler..... Move that to #1, thats the MOST COMMON reason why most people are asking this question on these boards, especially if their new to the forum, in regards to upscaling. Most internal scalers can be beat if you look hard enough, or can be bettered if you get the right knowledge ie... these forums. In his eyes your argument is like don't buy a Oppo vs a Walmart brand DVD player because THEY BOTH PUT OUT ONLY 480 lines of resolution, and I'd say well the Oppo does some stuff inside that makes it look better, and you'd say THERE IS NO BETTER THAN 480p THEY GET THE SAME INFO FROM THE DVD AND IT'S 480p - SAME 0's SAME 1's. I realised that, I knew he didn't mean to say adding information can (OFFICIAL better) the original image.

Some devices DON'T scale if the incoming image is a perfect match for the fixed display. So if the display has a crappy scaler or just one that's not as good as another one that may be found in the market like an HTPC, then there is a benefit to that upscaling player. At least image wise(not bit's and bytes vs the original wise). Even for a display device that does rescale incoming image information that already match's it native display, there still may be a benefit to scaling before it get's to the projector and that is that the display device's weakness in scaling won't be as obvious because it was fed a better image by the first device. Leave out the first one and let the display device be the sole scaler and you have the results of that crappy scaler.

It's all personal preference: Can a girl look better with make-up. ME: Sure some do it real well some look good with out it. CAVU: NO, adding make-up does not add to the girl it's just all crap on top of her face and there is no improvement it's the same basic girl underneath. Well I didn't really mean to say THE GIRL IS TRULY BETTER, HEATHIER, I know she's the same. I'll still take the one that dress's nice and smiles and looks good. You can't do better than a perfect representation of the original, we all get that. Some devices don't represent that original very well, some device do. He's hunting for those devices. Again I realized right off that his term for upscaling was what he probably got from reading post on DVD players that everyone loves and usually has the term upscaling associated with it. Even though they love those DVD players for other image associated reasons.

The reason someone may want a nice upscaling dvd palyer is that it scales better(among other things it does to the image) than the display device - and will result in a better image(Speculative - but agreed on by a majority including those who should know) - even if the display device rescales it again. I can(with a great scaler) even on a 480P display device - (and lets just say the scaler on my great scaler can only out put 720P) I can scale to 720p and then the pj scale back down to 480P and have a better image(to my eyes) then letting the display device be the sole scaler of the original image because the display devices scaler was so crappy. I don't think Bennan was saying adding artificial notes to a Beatles song can be recognize by all as superior to the original. Most musicians hope that their music get heard on a decent system, if the sound system SUCKS(not representative of the original sound) an equalizer may help that system reach a point closer to the original score by changing the original information and even the original artist would prefer the new tweaked representation on that sound system. Most of what makes an image good is not upscaling but it is one issue in the chain and for people on these boards or the DVD players forum a good scaler usually goes hand in hand with good decoders and other good image translation hardware. You can't improve on a 1:1 setup if all things are equal. I thought it was more common knowledge that all things are not equal and factored that assumption into what he was asking.

rrhomes

03-19-06, 10:03 PM

I got a DVD-D to M1 from Monoprice, and I noticed when looking at it that on the M1 end there are pins that seem offset from the others ie they are sunk deeper into the connector, looks like 3 of them that are 3 from the side with the horizontal pin that are deeper in than the rest, is that normal?

Quaid

03-19-06, 10:34 PM

I have a DVI-M1 adapter and it also has those sunken teeth. No problems to report.

rrhomes

03-19-06, 11:31 PM

I have a DVI-M1 adapter and it also has those sunken teeth. No problems to report.

:) Thanks for checking.

oddisee

03-19-06, 11:36 PM

I currently do not use my computer directly with my 4805 but am making ProShow Gold slideshows of still images that I want to display on the big screen.

I made a test DVD but was not impressed by the picture. My older video card only has an svideo output.

Any other options for quality output short of purchasing a new video card?

Quaid

03-19-06, 11:46 PM

vga->component adapter ?

filiperangel

03-20-06, 06:02 AM

Any other options for quality output short of purchasing a new video card?If you don´t have a DVI out on your card use the VGA-M1DA cable that came with your projector. Set your display resolution to 1280x720/60Hz. Your projector will "see" 720p. In my testes this was the best way to use the VGA connection on SP4805.

[]'s

Filipe Rangel.

oddisee

03-20-06, 07:46 AM

Thanks for the ideas already suggested.

I neglected to mention that this is a replacement projector for an X1 and that my computer is about 17 feet from the projector. I still have a component to VGA adapter from the X1. Would 2 of these adapters work? I currently have component and SVideo cables from the projector to the AV Rack.

______________Projector________________
...........................................................|
...........................................................|
...........................................................|
...........................................................|
..................Home Theatre Room..............|
...........................................................|
.....................................................A/V Rack
...........................................................|
...........................................................|
...........................................................|
...........................................................|
_____________Screen__________________|
...........................................................|
........................Computer......................|
..........................in Den........................|
...........................................................|

I thought my crude graphic might help. Thanks again.

bub

03-20-06, 10:36 AM

Hey all, still considering buying the 4805 (possibly the IN72 if/when we can get some real world review/comparison between it and the 4805).

I've read almost every page of the original 4805 thread and most every page of the 2nd 4805 thread.

I remember there was quite a bit of talk regarding DIY screen materials and paint. The search 'feature' of forums, for lack of a better word, sucks. Does anyone have a link to the page(s) of the forum where the talk about DIY screens was hot and heavy?

Also, I can not use a ceiling mount and am looking for a wall mount. Does anybody have any information/experience with a 4805 wall mount?

Thanks all,
George -bub

therealgeno

03-20-06, 10:43 AM

It's all personal preference: Can a girl look better with make-up. ME: Sure some do it real well some look good with out it. CAVU: NO, adding make-up does not add to the girl it's just all crap on top of her face and there is no improvement it's the same basic girl underneath. Well I didn't really mean to say THE GIRL IS TRULY BETTER, HEATHIER, I know she's the same. I'll still take the one that dress's nice and smiles and looks good. You can't do better than a perfect representation of the original, we all get that. Some devices don't represent that original very well, some device do. He's hunting for those devices. Again I realized right off that his term for upscaling was what he probably got from reading post on DVD players that everyone loves and usually has the term upscaling associated with it. Even though they love those DVD players for other image associated reasons.

While this is pretty funny, I agree. I have my HTPC setup to output 1.5 upsampling - and a few other tweaks. I clean up the image with slight denoise3d - just enough to remove "grain" from certain films and also to remove "sparklies" from clipping WTW/BTB where WTW info exists.

I then upsample this "cleaned" image with Lanczos or Bicubic algorithms - very high quality, but takes some CPU power to handle. This also adds some slight sharpening to the image matched with a little chroma detail - BOOM! Best DVD picture I have produced.

So I guess I basically added some concealer to hide any dark circles or scars, a little upsampling like eyeliner and mascara, and little chroma detail like lipstick/blush - BOOM, a Jessica Simpson look-a-like!!!

homer1963

03-20-06, 10:51 AM

[QUOTE=dmcdayton]JeffKB (or anyone)

While we are offtopic, is there any consensus on a reasonably priced, good quality component switch? I recently bought a PS2 for my wife to work out with DDR and I'd like to get the best quality I can, Svideo looks just ok.

Manual switch is fine. I checked RadioShack and Compusa today but neither carried one according to staff who checked inventory.

I thought these were fairly common but guess not.

They sell a component switch ( Manual ) at Walmart that i use for my PS2 and it works fine. It has 4 component s-video and composite inputs and is HDTV rated. You Just have to get up and push the button. Every one needs a little exercise. I also have my regular sony DVD plugged in to it as well. DVD's look great on it.

I hope that gives you what you need.

DeerHunter

03-20-06, 10:54 AM

...So I guess I basically added some concealer to hide any dark circles or scars, a little upsampling like eyeliner and mascara, and little chroma detail like lipstick/blush - BOOM, a Jessica Simpson look-a-like!!!

Man, you guys crack me up!!!! :D

homer1963

03-20-06, 11:03 AM

Bob Williams

03-20-06, 11:16 AM

Bob - I see no difference in the housings.

Did you look through the screens? The top part of the 4805 lamp housing should have a different geometry from the same part of the X2 lamp housing, and this difference you can see through the screens.

agro1

03-20-06, 11:22 AM

wes nance

03-20-06, 11:29 AM

I'm sure it's already been discussed, but I'd rather not wade through the past 100 pages....

What is the largest screen/image the 4805 is able to display without loosing any picture quality ?? Right now I have an 80" screen but will be getting a new one for my new media room pretty soon.

I will be able to control 100% of the light in the room and will be going with a DA-Lite fixed wall Cinema Contour screen. I'd like to be able to get about 119" for a 16:9 screen. Also, what screen surface/GAIN is suggested ??

Any comments about the Dalite Cinema Contour screen before I buy it would be greatly appreciated.

In regards to the X2 replacement lamp that I installed Friday....I put about 15 hours on it over the weekend and it has performed flawlessly - NO FIRE YET !!!! :)

The answer to that question all boils down to personal preference, seating distance, and lumens.

As long as you are able to sit 2x screen width back or so, and find it bright enough (might have to use a higher gain screen) and aren't bothered by screen door, you should be fine. I have a 82" 16x9 screen, I'm planning to make it a little bigger, maybe closer to the 92" ideal size suggested by this thread. My brother in law has a 110" 16x9 screen, and the impact is huge, more like a theater, but I notice his isn't as bright as his bulb ages, and I can see screen door fairly prominently in bright scenes. I'm running an ND2 filter on mine, he is not.

My gut is that 119" is too big for the 4805, unless your room is really long (you can sit far away) and you have a high gain screen, not sure how that dalite will fair. You definitely start to run into resolution limitations on that big a screen. . .

Good luck-

Wes

agro1

03-20-06, 11:30 AM

Did you look through the screens? The top part of the 4805 lamp housing should have a different geometry from the same part of the X2 lamp housing, and this difference you can see through the screens.

To gain access to the screen retainers, I had to remove the top part of the lamp housing and as far as I could tell, they were identical. They were both solid, meaning they did not have any vents or holes to allow airflow.

I don't doubt your experience, Bob, as you are clearly one of the most qualified individuals speaking to this subject. But, I failed to see any difference, besides the screen retainer, that would casue the lamp to run hotter in the 4805 housing.

Bob Williams

03-20-06, 11:34 AM

To gain access to the screen retainers, I had to remove the top part of the lamp housing and as far as I could tell, they were identical. They were both solid, meaning they did not have any vents or holes to allow airflow.

I don't doubt your experience, Bob, as you are clearly one of the most qualified individuals speaking to this subject. But, I failed to see any difference, besides the screen retainer, that would casue the lamp to run hotter in the 4805 housing.

Do you have access to both modules? If so I suggest you look again. The part I am talking about projects downward inside of the housing so is not visible from the top or bottom. I could be wrong as the design may have changed without my knowledge, but I have two production lamp housings in front of me right now and they are different.

therealgeno

03-20-06, 11:35 AM

agro1

ft/L = lumens*gain/sqft of screen.

You want at least 12 ft/L - and more importantly, you want this at the halfway point, not at the starting point. So let's say you need 24 ft/L to start out so you are still bright enough when the bulb is at its end.

24 = 600*x/42 sqft. Solving for x, your screen gain would have to be at least 1.68. So, on DaLite's website, you need to look for screen material that is, at the very least, 1.5 gain.

Also remember that, while are at the beginning of your bulb at 24 ft/L, you can attach an ND2 filter (available at any local camer store) to tame you down to 12 ft/L (which, btw, are Hollywood screening standards). Once you are at halfway, simply remove the filter, and BAM!, you are back where you started - much like getting a new bulb.

I just removed mine at around 1000 hrs, and it was so freaking nice to just remove a filter and feel like the bulb was just replaced with all that extra brightness. One up to Kras for this suggestion.

Edit: Since I am in Landscaping and it is pouring rain, I have nothing better to do than mess around on the computer. So I went to Dalite.com and have listed the screen materials that will work for your situation. I suggest that you contact them and request samples of the following (they are free). Glue them to a black border and view them all seperately (NOT SIDE-BY-SIDE because the brigher ones will bias the eye). Rate them one at a time on their own merit. Whichever you like the best, that is the right one. You can contact Jason here at AVS if you just want to purchase the screen material - I hear it is lunch money per square foot!

Screen material and gain:
1. Video Spectra = 1.5
2. Glass Beaded = 2.5
3. High Power = 1.5 (2.8 when table mounted)
4. Pearlescent = 1.5

scottwood2

03-20-06, 12:20 PM

Posted this in the HTPC group and had no replys. It has been days now so I thought maybe someone here might have some thoughts on my video problem. Had to watch a DVD using the old Sony DVD player. You can really see the difference in view S-video with the DVD player and a HTPC using DVI (at least if the HTPC is working :( )

No DVD playback after HD Trailers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Download a bunch of MS HD trailers and played them with MP10. Worked ok and looked great but after I went to play a DVD and nothing happens. I am setup with theaterTek and it just hangs. MC10 does the same.

I think it is something with the codecs? I am new to this and not sure what to try next? Any thoughts?

I also tried PowerDVD and they all act the same way. No video and It seems to hang the computer somewhat.

Thx

dmcdayton

03-20-06, 12:23 PM

Jeff and Homer,

Thanks for suggestions. I was using 100mhz as a base since thats what the Denon receivers were rated at on some of the units I was considering. I will be running SA8300 HDDVR over component through the switch as well as PS2, lots of HD movies.

I am delaying receiver upgrade for at least another year while format and HDMI wars are fought, so want a good quality in case I upgrade to IN76 before receiver (a distinct possibility).

Ja Phule

03-20-06, 12:28 PM

therealgeno

03-20-06, 12:36 PM

therealgeno

03-20-06, 12:38 PM

No DVD playback after HD Trailers

Download a bunch of MS HD trailers and played them with MP10. Worked ok and looked great but after I went to play a DVD and nothing happens. I am setup with theaterTek and it just hangs. MC10 does the same.

I think it is something with the codecs? I am new to this and not sure what to try next? Any thoughts?

I also tried PowerDVD and they all act the same way. No video and It seems to hang the computer somewhat.

Thx

Are you in trial mode of TheaterTek? If not, have you downloaded any new codecs recently (the 195s or is it 199s)?

Ja Phule

03-20-06, 12:45 PM

Ja Phule

While I have yet to make the jump to HDMI, I distinctly remember several people pixel-mapping with an M1->DVI->HDMI conversion. Some never got it to work, while others have.

I was wondering if TT will be able to incorporate HD-DVDs and/or Blu-Ray when they become more mainstream - I know Windows Vista will be required. If TT can, then DVI is still viable. I assume it's the 10 bits (or is it 12 with HDMI) that everyone is after.

So it seems HDMI works then, I guess the question is whether HDCP handshaking can without problems.

Vista will be required for MS's HD-DVD playback, but it will be up to 3rd parties to provide playback for Blu-Ray along with HD-DVD (over XP). It seems to be risky to do Blu-Ray and HD-DVD playback over XP but it's not impossible. If you are going to use DVI, you will need a new video card that supports HDCP however, since no video card out now (except for ones bundled with sony vaio's) has HDCP keys (including cards saying they are hdcp ready, which we found out now means no HDCP ever).

therealgeno

03-20-06, 12:55 PM

If you are going to use DVI, you will need a new video card that supports HDCP however, since no video card out now (except for ones bundled with sony vaio's) has HDCP keys (including cards saying they are hdcp ready, which we found out now means no HDCP ever).

That really sucks - I had no idea. And I just bought my 6600 GT. I guess even the X1800 series by ATI don't these keys. This really sucks!!

agro1

03-20-06, 01:28 PM

therealgeno / Wes - thanks very much for the replies...seems going past 100" is not a good idea...
therealgeno - thx for the tip to buy the material...I just may DIY a screen. But, I like the ability with the DaLite product to be able to take it down, disassemble and move it if need be...

Bennan

03-20-06, 01:30 PM

Quaid

03-20-06, 01:31 PM

That really sucks - I had no idea. And I just bought my 6600 GT. I guess even the X1800 series by ATI don't these keys. This really sucks!!

Infact only the newest of the new 7900's have HDCP compatibility, despite them all being advertised as being so. Class-action.

agro1

03-20-06, 01:32 PM

Do you have access to both modules? If so I suggest you look again. The part I am talking about projects downward inside of the housing so is not visible from the top or bottom. I could be wrong as the design may have changed without my knowledge, but I have two production lamp housings in front of me right now and they are different.

Thanks Bob -
It's possible that I missed that slight geometric difference in the housings....but do you think, considering I've already used the lamp for 15 hrs straight w/no problems, that it will eventually rupture prematurely due to excessive heat ?

krasmuzik

03-20-06, 01:48 PM

The answer to that question all boils down to personal preference, seating distance, and lumens.

As long as you are able to sit 2x screen width back or so, and find it bright enough (might have to use a higher gain screen) and aren't bothered by screen door, you should be fine. I have a 82" 16x9 screen, I'm planning to make it a little bigger, maybe closer to the 92" ideal size suggested by this thread. My brother in law has a 110" 16x9 screen, and the impact is huge, more like a theater, but I notice his isn't as bright as his bulb ages, and I can see screen door fairly prominently in bright scenes. I'm running an ND2 filter on mine, he is not.

My gut is that 119" is too big for the 4805, unless your room is really long (you can sit far away) and you have a high gain screen, not sure how that dalite will fair. You definitely start to run into resolution limitations on that big a screen. . .

Good luck-

Wes

A 1.3 gain screen at 120" runs from 18ftl down to 9ftL - which is a about SMPTE specs for a commercial theater - as long as you have a dedicated room with absolute light control. Any sconces will wash it out at the end of lamp life.

Which is why I prefer to design for 12 ftL - since everybody can use a little more lamp than they actually get - which is why you should look into higher gain screens.

krasmuzik

03-20-06, 01:57 PM

Bennan

Regarding 4 - a VGA to Component and DVI to component are the same thing - since DVI includes VGA. The Component dongles usually only support TV rates - so expect it to be fuzzy and not pixel mapped at all - you would be better off with VGA. Expect it to be worse than your worst hardware DVD player for DVD's - and the desktop to be a mess.

Maybe you should invest in a DVI switch - or as we suggested TheaterTek - it has the most power aspect control automation you are searching for in players.

krasmuzik

03-20-06, 01:59 PM

Thanks Bob -
It's possible that I missed that slight geometric difference in the housings....but do you think, considering I've already used the lamp for 15 hrs straight w/no problems, that it will eventually rupture prematurely due to excessive heat ?

Insert lawyer mode - don't bother Bob about how to mod your projector to avoid explosions. He cannot say - because if your projector did explode and need service - Infocus would have liability because he said you would be OK. I think he has taken it as far as he can explaining how lamps are different - even if just slight assembly tweaks. You do realize that since you have modified your projector - that warranty service will be denied? I am not sure that is worth the $50 saved on finding a replacement lamp.

agro1

03-20-06, 02:11 PM

KRAS - I understand, and with that being said....also understand that Bob cannot comment much more than he already has. Please don't take this the wrong way, but with the current prices on 4805's and the value that represents....I would not be too upset if it did catch on fire and I had to buy another...
Now, that certainly would not be true if one of my high dollar McIntosh amps blew up as a result of my "minor tweaking"...

Regarding my proposed screen size....I will be able to control 100% of the light. I'm shooting for 100" 16:9 screen. Would you suggest a screen with 1.5 or 2.8 gain ? Knowing what you do now about my projector, I have to say that I most likely will be upgrading to a higher end unit in a couple years (Ruby or 777 territory). I would think with that being said, 1.5 gain screen would be the way to go, correct ?

jwv651

03-20-06, 02:35 PM

I would not be too upset if it did catch on fire and I had to buy another How about your house catching fire...I guess you could just buy another. :eek:

scottwood2

03-20-06, 02:37 PM

Are you in trial mode of TheaterTek? If not, have you downloaded any new codecs recently (the 195s or is it 199s)?

I think that may be the problem but I am not sure what to do with them. Never worked with codec's before. Maybe I need a beginners guide to working with them. Looked in the list of programs and I don't see anything listed there. Where are they located?

Thx for the reply.

jkim5453

03-20-06, 02:52 PM

There seems to be issues with devices with HDCP successfully handshaking with many displays including the 4805. I can't seem to recall anyone having zero problems getting an hdcp device to work with the 4805. Can anyone confirm their success with an HDCP device with the 4805, with either an HDCP dvd player or stb box (like the SA8300HD DVR using HDMI)? It seems most people are using non-HDCP DVI connection to the 4805 via HTPC, Bravo D1, or Oppo. I've had problems with HDCP from my SA3250HD box and reverted to component since and I recall similar problems from other hdcp devices...

Of course, I must first whine that my M1-DVI stopped working many moons ago... ;)

SA8300HD DVR to 4805 HDMI->HDMI-to-DVI->M1 worked fine for me. I'd just unplug the DVI end, plug it into my laptop, and that was great, too.

SA8300HD could be finicky, though, at times, popping up a "your device doesn't support HDCP" message (projected through 4805) at times. But as soon as I hit "Okay" on the remote, all was fine. This only happened, when it happened, when I first turn on the gear. If the 4805 was already on, and the input was already at "Computer", and if I turned on the SA8300HD last, the pesky message never appeared as far as I can remember.

My only beef with the setup: with HDMI active, SA8300HD doesn't output concurrently to component video output. Minor issue, but I recall the 480i channels looked better through component video out compared to upscaled signal through HDMI. So, if you when HDMI with SA8300HD, it was all or nothing, or manually unplugging HDMI when viewing 480i channels.

Another beef is that the DVR doesn't have FireWire through which I can grab the MPEG stream of recorded material. Older SA8000 had that, and I miss it, but it wasn't HD capable. My recording of the RoseBowl in HD is sitting there taking up a lot of disk space! :mad:

joe

Ja Phule

03-20-06, 02:55 PM

Of course, I must first whine that my M1-DVI stopped working many moons ago... ;)

SA8300HD DVR to 4805 HDMI->HDMI-to-DVI->M1 worked fine for me. I'd just unplug the DVI end, plug it into my laptop, and that was great, too.

SA8300HD could be finicky, though, at times, popping up a "your device doesn't support HDCP" message (projected through 4805) at times. But as soon as I hit "Okay" on the remote, all was fine. This only happened, when it happened, when I first turn on the gear. If the 4805 was already on, and the input was already at "Computer", and if I turned on the SA8300HD last, the pesky message never appeared as far as I can remember.

My only beef with the setup: with HDMI active, SA8300HD doesn't output concurrently to component video output. Minor issue, but I recall the 480i channels looked better through component video out compared to upscaled signal through HDMI. So, if you when HDMI with SA8300HD, it was all or nothing, or manually unplugging HDMI when viewing 480i channels.

Another beef is that the DVR doesn't have FireWire through which I can grab the MPEG stream of recorded material. Older SA8000 had that, and I miss it, but it wasn't HD capable. My recording of the RoseBowl in HD is sitting there taking up a lot of disk space! :mad:

joe

Thanks for the info. Too bad about the Rose Bowl, as I'm trying to find the Rose Bowl in HD to back up to pc also. :)

agro1

03-20-06, 03:20 PM

How about your house catching fire...I guess you could just buy another. :eek:

I guess prefacing that comment with "Please don't take this the wrong way..." was not enough to curtail the smartass remarks, nor was my comment about it’s correlation to a much more expensive piece of equipment.

I'm the only one that ever uses the projector, and when it's on, I'm sitting right below it. Not to mention my entire house has pop out sprinkler protection and one is mounted directly behind the PJ. I seriously doubt it's gonna catch fire when it's not in use...

tradewinds

03-20-06, 04:04 PM

H20

03-20-06, 04:15 PM

Greetings.

Sorry for the interruption, but I have 2 questions that are obstructing my purchase of a Infocus 4805, and hoping someone can help me make a final decision.

1- At this point in time would most recommend to pick up a 4805 or to take the plunge with a IN72?

2- Any current owner of a 4805 using a Samsung LTS-3510 DVD player as source? If so, any luck with feed from DVI (HDCP compliant) port?

All information is welcomed. Thank you very much in advance.

tradewinds

03-20-06, 04:17 PM

Not sure if I missed it, but has anyone received their Bravo D1 from either newegg.com, chiefvalue.com or ubid.com and can confirm that it is the same as the original, i.e. able to give the 1:1 pixel mapping? The cap issue, if it still have it is secondary for me since if I have to replace it, then I will, no biggie.

UPDATED: I should have said no biggie with Cavu's website about to be launched with the instuctions and step by step photos...hopefully...

tradewinds

03-20-06, 04:19 PM

Greetings.
1- At this point in time would most recommend to pick up a 4805 or to take the plunge with a IN72?

All information is welcomed. Thank you very much in advance.

I am hoping someone who has seen these side by side in a light controled environement can give a comparision of the two. So far i think only the specs we have to go with. I had asked Bob W. for his subjective opinion a few posts back, but no response to it thus far.

agro1

03-20-06, 04:20 PM

FWIW and since you are using it for 15 hours already and have all the sprinkler protection is to keep using it and let's start the clock to see when it croaks. If it last reasonably a long time then we all have an alternative we can use. You are probably in the best position to test this out. Good luck and do report back on any issues you see along the way.

Will do - This evening I plan on removing it and inspecting the inside of the housing to make sure there is no melting or damage to the unit as a result of excessive heat. If there is, I'll make sure to post here with pics.

I should also mention that I only got 804 hours out of my first lamp, so anything more than that will be fine with me....also considering it took me almost 2 years to put 804 hrs on it, I'm sure with the way the 3 chip units are coming down in price; I'll be upgrading sooner rather than later.

tradewinds

03-20-06, 04:28 PM

....also considering it took me almost 2 years to put 804 hrs on it, I'm sure with the way the 3 chip units are coming down in price; I'll be upgrading sooner rather than later.

Yep, I am hoping that mine doesn't blow before I am ready to step to the 3 chip units. I am really hoping to see some reviews compared with the 4805 to be able to put things into perspective initially.

agro1

03-20-06, 04:32 PM

Yep, I am hoping that mine doesn't blow before I am ready to step to the 3 chip units. I am really hoping to see some reviews compared with the 4805 to be able to put things into perspective initially.

Agreed....and that's why I wouldn't hesitate buying another...I've seen them side by side and even though they are better....they are not so much better to justify the price difference. The 4805 represents a HUGE value IMO.

bub

03-20-06, 04:33 PM

agro1

03-20-06, 04:36 PM

(looking for a steal on a 4805 or compelling reason to go with the IN72)

Hey, I've got a slightly modified 4805 with a brand new lamp that I'll make you a screaming deal on.... ;)

JeffKB

03-20-06, 05:28 PM

Any advice/input on the 4805 vs. IN72 would be greatly appreciated.

Here's my $.02, (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7337970&&#post7337970), keeping in mind I've not actually seen an IN72.

AVS is running a special on the IN72 (see sticky) - give Jason a call. I don't know what the sale price is, but it may make your decision easier (or tougher?).

DeerHunter

03-20-06, 05:40 PM

I received my D1 from NewEgg today but since I don't have a projector yet (looking for a steal on a 4805 or compelling reason to go with the IN72) I can't comment on this D1's pixel mapping abilities (but it damn well better be able to do it) or whether or not it has the 'old' D1's capacitor issue.

Has it been determined by anyone if there is a way to look at the capacitor and tell visually???

Luck all,
George -bub

Any advice/input on the 4805 vs. IN72 would be greatly appreciated.

Well...let's have a looksy shall we. Open the sucker up, then take a look at the capacitor (refer to the pic posted by CAVU back on page 104 of this thread) you might/should be able to see the voltage marking on the side of the cap. If it's 16v, it needs to go!

Still waiting for my unit to arrive courtesy of ubid. Scheduled for delivery thurs.

Bob Williams

03-20-06, 06:04 PM

Bob W., Since you have looked at the IN72 and the 4805 PQ side by side, is there a hugh difference in the PQ, almost same or same? No problem if your opinion is subjective. Thanks.

Looking at them side-by-side I was surprised at how much better the IN72 looked relative to the SP4805. The colors are more accurate and appear more saturated due to the brighter image, the scaler produces a sharper picture without significant ringing, and the contrast is higher than before (although the stated spec is the same). In addition the out-of-box calibration is better so less messing around is required, but there are also more advanced controls to help those who want to calibrate the projector perfectly. There is also less noise in standard definition material due to the higher bit-depth video decoder.

All the being said the SP4805 still produces a very good image when compared to the competition at this price point. When we set out to do this new projector line the image quality bar was set by the performance of the SP4805.

DeerHunter

03-20-06, 06:11 PM

Bob-a-loo...Bob-a-looooo!!!

Nothing to add here, just wanted to say that...now move along, move along.

therealgeno

03-20-06, 06:37 PM

I think that may be the problem but I am not sure what to do with them. Never worked with codec's before. Maybe I need a beginners guide to working with them. Looked in the list of programs and I don't see anything listed there. Where are they located?

Thx for the reply.

First, if you are using TT in trial period and have downloaded the new codecs, then TT is done and the trial is over.

If you have had TT for awhile, and have downloaded the new codecs, then TT will not run since TT is bundled with the now old codecs (188s). They are probably fighting with each other. 2.3, due out very soon, will include the new codecs.

So, I guess I am asking: Have you downloaded the latest codecs after installing and/or owning TT? If so, are the codecs in trial mode? When codecs expire, they reveal themselves as black, pink, or blank screens.

DeerHunter

03-20-06, 06:43 PM

Just curious. I was looking at the ISO iamge cd files for the last firmware upgrade for the D1. One of the files is a .PNG image, know doubt the logo for the D1's background image.

How hard would it be to replace the image with a custom image and some text? Save the file, then create a new ISO image cd to reinstall the firmware with your own custom logo? Sounds easy, but can it be done? Has anyone done it? Seems as if it would be fairly easy, and pretty cool to boot!

"Welcome to DeerHunter's Home Theater...Now sit down, & shut up!"

mrpergo

03-20-06, 06:53 PM

DeerHunter I like the idea.
That would be very cool.
I also like your lead in :)

DeerHunter

03-20-06, 06:59 PM

DeerHunter I like the idea.
That would be very cool.
I also like your lead in :)

Thanks. Got it today, be watching your mail! ;)

spyder696969

03-20-06, 07:38 PM

Considering Bob Williams' post above, who's rich enough to upgrade right now? Let us know in your own side-by-side comparison! (Better yet, get all 3 models and let us know how they do against each other...you richie, rich, richerton!) ;)

Basilisk

03-20-06, 07:40 PM

How hard would it be to replace the image with a custom image and some text? Save the file, then create a new ISO image cd to reinstall the firmware with your own custom logo? Sounds easy, but can it be done? Has anyone done it? Seems as if it would be fairly easy, and pretty cool to boot!

That is a very good idea, but you have to remember that sometimes a company will place a signature code at the beginning or the end of the file so that the unit will recognize it. Furthermore, the logo have to be the same dimensions as the original. I will see if I can play around with the logo for the Oppo and see if its works. It would be a very cool mod to have your very own logo projected on screen. :D

agro1

03-20-06, 07:49 PM

cavu

03-20-06, 08:05 PM

One of the files is a .PNG image, know doubt the logo for the D1's background image.Actually, no logo. Just the generic background in 640x480 format:

http://www.flying-colors.org/d1bg.jpg

DeerHunter

03-20-06, 08:52 PM

That is a very good idea, but you have to remember that sometimes a company will place a signature code at the beginning or the end of the file so that the unit will recognize it. Furthermore, the logo have to be the same dimensions as the original. I will see if I can play around with the logo for the Oppo and see if its works. It would be a very cool mod to have your very own logo projected on screen. :D

While this may be true, the logo file within the D1's firmware is a simple .PNG image, no sig code that I can find or see. Under properties it lists the following...

Width 640 pixels
Height 480 pixels
Horizontal Resolution 72 dpi
Vertical Resolution 72 dpi
Bit Depth 8
Frame Count 1

That's it as far as properties.

It would seem to me that the same sized image as long as if it were created/modified as a .PNG image/file even with text, could be substituted for the origional file, no? And, thus, theoretically allowing one to have a custom background image on their D1.

DeerHunter

03-20-06, 08:56 PM

Actually, no logo. Just the generic background in 640x480 format:

http://www.flying-colors.org/d1bg.jpg

That's what I meant...background image. Cavy, come on now you must be as curious as I am about whether or not it can be done.

rrhomes

03-20-06, 09:35 PM

That's what I meant...background image. Cavy, come on now you must be as curious as I am about whether or not it can be done.

I am give it a shot and report back to us. :)

cavu

03-20-06, 10:02 PM

you must be as curious as I am about whether or not it can be done.Oh I have no doubt a new image could be substituted but it would be of limited value as this image is a constant behind all D1 menus.

You could probably imbed your name etc. in the border of an image and it would likely not interfere with the menuing sysem.

BTW, since I had the file open anyway and kinda like it, I rescaled it :eek: to 1280x1024 and am now using it as the background on my Windoze XP machine.

rrhomes

03-20-06, 10:12 PM

Looking at them side-by-side I was surprised at how much better the IN72 looked relative to the SP4805. The colors are more accurate and appear more saturated due to the brighter image, the scaler produces a sharper picture without significant ringing, and the contrast is higher than before (although the stated spec is the same). In addition the out-of-box calibration is better so less messing around is required, but there are also more advanced controls to help those who want to calibrate the projector perfectly. There is also less noise in standard definition material due to the higher bit-depth video decoder.

All the being said the SP4805 still produces a very good image when compared to the competition at this price point. When we set out to do this new projector line the image quality bar was set by the performance of the SP4805.

"LESS NOISE" that in and of itself is a biggie. I've mentally upgraded to the IN72

Lets add it up now:

More Contrast
Less Image Noise
Sharper Image
Higher Bit-depth
Dead Silent
Brighter
Beautiful(Subjective)
Discrete HDMI
Less to Zero light spill
Discrete Codes
Better Optics
and I've heard a more durable color wheel and probable better scaler(yet to be proven).

Thats every category we care about.

It's still a 480p DVD world and will be for 12-18 months + as there are far more titles and cheaper at that. I've been making a killing at GameStop, 3 DVD's for $6.50 tax included. I got Solaris, Stir of Echos and Mystic River. Not bad for $2.17 each to own them. I have bought 30 DVD's in the last week. And keep in mind the new HD-DVD's will look outstanding on this machine allowing you to take your time to upgrade from it.

cavu

03-20-06, 10:27 PM

It's still a 480p DVD world and will be for 12-18 monthsBINGO! At least that long.

krasmuzik

03-20-06, 10:28 PM

While this is pretty funny, I agree. I have my HTPC setup to output 1.5 upsampling - and a few other tweaks. I clean up the image with slight denoise3d - just enough to remove "grain" from certain films and also to remove "sparklies" from clipping WTW/BTB where WTW info exists.

I then upsample this "cleaned" image with Lanczos or Bicubic algorithms - very high quality, but takes some CPU power to handle. This also adds some slight sharpening to the image matched with a little chroma detail - BOOM! Best DVD picture I have produced.

So I guess I basically added some concealer to hide any dark circles or scars, a little upsampling like eyeliner and mascara, and little chroma detail like lipstick/blush - BOOM, a Jessica Simpson look-a-like!!!

If you have a scaler that operates at higher resolution with all the signal processing done in high resolution - then upconverting makes sense. A little bit of that on HTPC goes a long way. I doubt a $200 DVD player operates its signal processing anywhere but the standard definition coming off the video decoder. All they did was add a scaler chip to the video output.

And none of these $200 DVD players can even compete with video scalers that cost $2K - so the argument that the one in the DVD might be better than the one in the TV is not really relevant. It truly is a market category that would have never even existed if the HD-DVD players had gotten their act together. Even my know nothing lawyer asked me if he should buy an upconverting player for his Circuit Shack plasma - for fear he would be feeding it standard def which might not be compatible...I short circuited his thinking when I pointed out his Bose reflector system he had in college - asked him if he planned to upgrade to Dolby Digital surround....

krasmuzik

03-20-06, 10:35 PM

jwv651

03-20-06, 10:42 PM

DeerHunter that's a great idea...custom logo...I can already picture it. :cool:

rrhomes

03-20-06, 10:47 PM

If you have a scaler that operates at higher resolution with all the signal processing done in high resolution - then upconverting makes sense. A little bit of that on HTPC goes a long way. I doubt a $200 DVD player operates its signal processing anywhere but the standard definition coming off the video decoder. All they did was add a scaler chip to the video output.

After I played with my HTPC(if you can call it that, ave card) I realised I'll have to move in that direction one day for good. The scaling was superb on my HT510 I had a very smooth, sharp image and could tell that the only thing holding it back was the HT510's contrast. I can only imagine HD-DVD through a HTPC with someone who knows every trick in the book on how to tweak it. For now I am going to go with the D1 as it's much cheaper and 99% of what I want image wise and 100% of what I want hassle free wise. HTPC is the future for me but I'm going to let HDMI cards and Drives come out and let the pros wade through the early unknowns while I enjoy my IN72 for a few years.

rrhomes

03-20-06, 11:08 PM

Any IN72 SP4805 side by side I do would not be relevant - my lamp is badly faded. By the time I get a new lamp the IN72 will be installed

I think a little lipstick and concealer on it - I can use the SP4805 as a substitute for the IN72 - point to the IN76 and say that with this resolution!

Thats ok just give us your eyeball observations, we know you know what you doing. While Bob works for IF his personality tells us he's shooting us strait. Thats is the IF72 has a noticeable improvement in image. He has now come out and said that the contrast is higher even though it not on the spec's. Even if thats only 5%-10%, along with the other improvements and the probable exact same price as the SP4805 $1,100 very soon if not less, it's just going to be another sweet IF product. Remember the SP4805 came out at $1,500 but it wasn't there very long(30 days, I can't remember). With people able to get 720p for just a little more the IF72 is going to have to be cheap/fast to sell a lot. Sub 2k 720P's did not exist when the SP4805 came out, the IN72 doesn't have the sole claim to incredible value as the IN76 is just a much of a steal if not more. I suspect the IN72 will drop in price fast making it one hel* of a buy. My opinion Sub 1K retail very fast. And I'll get mine right here at AVS as I owe so much, of great info/help I've gotten here.

DeerHunter

03-20-06, 11:16 PM

DeerHunter that's a great idea...custom logo...I can already picture it. :cool:

Thanks. Now who's goona be the first to try it?

I googled a site where you can convert an image instantly from jpeg to png for free, no trials or downloads, so that's half the battle. Choose your image, resize it to 640x480, then convert it to png (at the site), save it, replace the old image file with the new one, create a new ISO image cd, and voila!!! Seems like it would work.

Clams Canino

03-21-06, 12:41 AM

Windows Paint will convert.... and you already own it.

-W (made several custom screens with paint and dvdshrink)

Basilisk

03-21-06, 05:29 AM

While this may be true, the logo file within the D1's firmware is a simple .PNG image, no sig code that I can find or see. Under properties it lists the following...

Width 640 pixels
Height 480 pixels
Horizontal Resolution 72 dpi
Vertical Resolution 72 dpi
Bit Depth 8
Frame Count 1

That's it as far as properties.

It would seem to me that the same sized image as long as if it were created/modified as a .PNG image/file even with text, could be substituted for the origional file, no? And, thus, theoretically allowing one to have a custom background image on their D1.

It can easily be done. Now I wish I had a D1. Like someone said , just find a program that will convert from jpeg to png and bam custom logo! If anyone of you D1 owners have Paintshop Pro or Photoshop the conversion can be done with these programs easily. Good luck to all D1 owners who will try this. Please post some shots if you have successfully created your own boot screen logo.

DeerHunter

03-21-06, 07:32 AM

Windows Paint will convert.... and you already own it.

-W (made several custom screens with paint and dvdshrink)

Ahhhh.....I did not know this. Funny, I've never really messed with windows paint.

tradewinds

03-21-06, 10:17 AM

Have not looked around lately, but a while back there were sites that would allow you to upload images and manipulate/convert the format and other things. Goggle around, there may still be some.

DeerHunter

03-21-06, 10:23 AM

Have not looked around lately, but a while back there were sites that would allow you to upload images and manipulate/convert the format and other things. Goggle around, there may still be some.

No need. Just use Windows Paint. Choose your image, edit, crop, resize, then save as .PNG

agro1

03-21-06, 10:32 AM

A bit offtopic....but could someone point me in the right direction for a good software program to design/layout a media room, wiring diagram etc...
I downloaded SmartDraw, which is very nice, but it's only a trial version and to get the real thing that lets you print, etc...it's like $200 - which I'd rather not spend....
Thanks in advance....

bub

03-21-06, 10:40 AM

Well, I opened my NewEgg D1 up and it DOES have the infamous 16V capacitor.

This D1 also has the FUSS Audio DVD loader, model DV9929B.

Luck all,
George -bub

Well...let's have a looksy shall we. Open the sucker up, then take a look at the capacitor (refer to the pic posted by CAVU back on page 104 of this thread) you might/should be able to see the voltage marking on the side of the cap. If it's 16v, it needs to go!

Still waiting for my unit to arrive courtesy of ubid. Scheduled for delivery thurs.

Sly_Dawg

03-21-06, 10:44 AM

If you are using powerstrip, then why are you choosing resolutions and refresh rates from the card and not powerstrip?

There are two ways to do this:

1. Go into to "Advanced TIming" in powerstrip and manually type in 47.952Hz and see if it sticks.

2. Better way is to search in the Original Thread for "DaGamePimp's Timing Parameters" and copy the first set of numbers. The paste them to the clipboard in powerstrip. The you need to go into "User Definable" resolutions and select your new resolution.

If you want 50Hz, I suggest you look in the pre-defined resolutions in powerstrip and see if it offers a 50Hz timing for you.

Thanks for the reply.

I couldnt get the settings i wanted to work with powerstrip so used card settings as i could get 848x480 that way.
I have previously tried your tips but to no avail. I guess my ATI RADEON 9100 IGP card just doesnt support 50Hz.

Thanks anyway.

Sly_Dawg

03-21-06, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Sly_Dawg
Will a change in refresh rate help me or is everyone only talking about dvd tweaking?

No it will not help your TV viewing and yes, we are mostly referring to 24fps film-based DVDs.

Quote:
I am in the UK so tv is pal = 50hz. So will my tv signal go to the 4805 as 50hz regardless of the refresh rate i choose for my htpc?

Yes.We're referring to changing refresh rates on capable DVD players and HTPCs. The refresh rate for your TV viewing is determined by your TV source, whether it be a VCR, OTA tuner, cable STB, etc.

Have you finished counting those little squares yet?! I really don't want you coming out of your room till you've finished that! Your supper will wait.

Thanks for being a good sport! Do you understand what/why the little squares are?

Thanks Cav. But checked out the Hauppauge and MCE forums and apparently 50 hz WILL help me because that is the refresh rate my tv signal is giving. As i am using a tv card from my htpc, I need 50hz on it to match the incoming PAL signal. At the moment, the htpc is converting the 50hz tv signal to 60hz before it is shown on the projector.

I think you should count the squares for that! (btw I tried but lost count when I hadnt eaten for 3 days and realised I either finish the count or live longer). Never the less they are annoying, is there nothing that can be done to get rid of them. Im sure they werent so evident before I updated the firmware.

Quaid

03-21-06, 11:20 AM

Sly_Dawg

03-21-06, 12:45 PM

Sly_Dawg, you know they are joking right? The little squares are the pixels. If you have a different number of little squares, like 50...maybe you have a macroblocking issue or something. The pixel structure and the lines between them are commonly referred to as Screen Door Effect (SDE). You can reduce the impact by sitting further back (or by having a few drinks). The recommended seating distance is 2x the screen width.

I did not notice increased SDE with the new firmware. Perhaps you need to calibrate the contraste and brightness, etc.

Ha I know he was joking about the squares Quaid. I was just being as Newbie as you can get in an earlier post! However if I do decide to stop eating for a few days in order to count the squares, itll be time to throw out the projector and check-in to an institution.

krasmuzik

03-21-06, 12:55 PM

Thats ok just give us your eyeball observations, we know you know what you doing. While Bob works for IF his personality tells us he's shooting us strait. Thats is the IF72 has a noticeable improvement in image. He has now come out and said that the contrast is higher even though it not on the spec's. Even if thats only 5%-10%, along with the other improvements and the probable exact same price as the SP4805 $1,100 very soon if not less, it's just going to be another sweet IF product. Remember the SP4805 came out at $1,500 but it wasn't there very long(30 days, I can't remember). With people able to get 720p for just a little more the IF72 is going to have to be cheap/fast to sell a lot. Sub 2k 720P's did not exist when the SP4805 came out, the IN72 doesn't have the sole claim to incredible value as the IN76 is just a much of a steal if not more. I suspect the IN72 will drop in price fast making it one hel* of a buy. My opinion Sub 1K retail very fast. And I'll get mine right here at AVS as I owe so much, of great info/help I've gotten here.

It is because I know what I am doing that it does not make sense to do it.

When a lamp fades - it gets dim - so no problem - put a ND2 filter on the brighter one and equalize things.

The problem is when lamps fade - they do not just get dim - they literally start to fade out Red. So the color temperature becomes increasingly Cyan. Since there is no Red to add - one must subtract Green and Blue. Most of your brightness comes from Green - and the adjustment is a digital adjustment. So by correcting for a faded lamp - you get a loss in cailbrated contrast.

So until I get a new lamp - contrast comparisons are useless.

Of course if I was a biased dealer looking to move a profitable IN72 - this is exactly what I would do. Compare to a dim faded low contrast needs a new lamp SP4805 that has not had the dust filters cleaned so it is loud and hot - and proclaim the IN72 to be the bright high contrast king with superb colors running cool and quiet! So if that was my plan - why bother making the comparisons - when you can just make shiznit up? Especially if the SP4805 customer would benefit more from a low-profit lamp upgrade than a profitable IN72 upgrade ? :p But then again IN72 is shipping - whilst lamps are not. Must be a vast upgrade conspiracy...

Your pricing argument is why I think the IN74EX will be squeezed out once MSRP discounting starts.