SWithey Home Theater Construction [Text View] - Page 5

swithey

08-22-06, 01:48 PM

Okay wood workers, I need your advice on a new router. Since mine is a 10+ year old Sears (handed down from my Grandfather), I figured it was time for a new one.

My main reason for getting it now is I need a plunge router to cut the speaker holes for my DIY speakers. I've looked around and see lots of options. I would say after this project, I do not see me using the router too much except maybe to make some cabinet doors from time to time -- but do want something that will lost more than a few years. I'm looking for a combo setup that includes plunge and straight bases (if possible). From what I've read, I would like to have these features: Soft Start, variable speed and the ability to use 1/4" and 1/2" bits.

Given all this, I would really like to keep the price around $200 or so (if possible). Skil has a combo for $100, Porter-Cable about $190, Dewalt and Bosch about $210. And the pricing keeps going up from there.

This Bosch (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00005RHPD/sr=1-376/qid=1156266733/ref=sr_1_376/102-6278100-5504168?ie=UTF8&s=hi) looks like a great deal at $209 and includes a free edge guide/circle cutter (but I think I'll get the Jasper Circle Cutter (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00009K77A/ref=e_deav_acc_1_1/102-6278100-5504168?ie=UTF8) anyway). And I can save an additional $25 with any purchase over $199 and free shipping from Amazon.com.

Suggestions?

Toxarch

08-22-06, 03:46 PM

swithey

08-22-06, 04:08 PM

When I was looking for a router last year, I liked the Bosch combo the best. Course, I still haven't gotten it yet because I convinced myself I didn't need it right away. The $25 off for a new router and free shipping is a pretty good price.

Do you have to have a new router to cut a few circles in wood? They are holes for speakers which don't have to be perfectly round. A jig saw would work.

And being a Texas Longhorns fan I feel compelled to say OU Sucks.
I could cut the holes with a jigsaw but I still need to counter-sink the drivers a few mm so the speaker face is flush with the speaker baffle. A circle-jig and plunge router is the best way to to get this done. So, I think I MUST buy a new tool (oh darn :D)

Oh and I'll tell the wife what you said. She'll conveniently rub it in your face "if" OU wins this year. Me -- I'm a neutral party in this. I'm just in it for the beer and HDTV experience.

tshepherd

08-22-06, 04:09 PM

I just picked up a Porter-Cable 2 1/4 HP fixed base a couple weeks ago and have nothing but good things to say about it. I was going to go for the combo but figured I could always add the plunge base after the fact. I actually planned to get the 1.75HP combo, but when I went to HD to get it, it wasn't in stock and my coupon was expiring so I gave in and up-sold myself... :)

Cathan

08-22-06, 04:43 PM

This site (http://www.consumersearch.com/www/house_and_home/router-reviews/index.html?source=adwords&gclid=CNPWjc-T9IYCFSkWFQodKBrVcQ) reprints some reviews done by some of the major woodworking magazines. It might help you narrow the search.

Like you, I can never say no to buying a new tool. I picked up a Porter-Cable combo kit a few months ago. It included a coupon for an additional handle base that I just got in the mail a week or so ago. Basically puts the power button on a finger pull trigger like you find on jig-saws. Neat toy, but I haven't had a chance to play much with it yet.

Mark P

08-22-06, 07:37 PM

I actually like the Hitachi, solid and good accessories. Tough choice, theres a built on Friday afternoon in every brand and I think every day is late Friday afternoon at Ryobi

Tedd

08-22-06, 08:06 PM

The Freud FT2000EP is absolutely the best tool I have ever purchased. Loads of power, plunge, and electronic speed control.

http://www.internationaltool.com/freudrouters.htm

v1rtu0s1ty

08-22-06, 09:48 PM

http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Trim-RoutingComplete.JPG

hi swithey,

What type of wood are those and where do you buy them? Does Home Depot, Lowes or Menards carry those type of woods? I like the surface, looks like it is smooth. Is it?

ifeliciano

08-22-06, 10:07 PM

hi swithey,

What type of wood are those and where do you buy them? Does Home Depot, Lowes or Menards carry those type of woods? I like the surface, looks like it is smooth. Is it?

I think he used soft maple and in our part of the country none of the big boxes caries it. It is mostly found in a hardwood supply shop. I've heard that HD carries some maple in the northen states, but I cannot verify it, plus you'd be paying to much for it at HD.

Click here (http://anywho.yellowpages.com/sp/co/anywho/aw_ypresults.jsp?t=0&v=2&s=0&p=1&q=lumber&ci=Lake+in+the+Hills&st=IL), maybe they are "close" to your area...

miltimj

08-22-06, 11:16 PM

I'm all about the Bosch.. high quality. When it comes time for speaker and HT building, I'm getting that Bosch combo set.

v1rtu0s1ty

08-23-06, 01:48 AM

I think he used soft maple and in our part of the country none of the big boxes caries it. It is mostly found in a hardwood supply shop. I've heard that HD carries some maple in the northen states, but I cannot verify it, plus you'd be paying to much for it at HD.

Click here (http://anywho.yellowpages.com/sp/co/anywho/aw_ypresults.jsp?t=0&v=2&s=0&p=1&q=lumber&ci=Lake+in+the+Hills&st=IL), maybe they are "close" to your area...

Yeah, yehey, Woodstock is very close to my area. :D

Woodstock Lumber Co

accts4mjs

08-23-06, 02:34 AM

I like my porter cable but it's the 694VK combo set not the new 895 which I really like (because you can adjust the height easily from the top of a router table). I think you'd be fine with the 694VK given you don't expect to do too much routing in the future and honestly I adjust it just fine from under the table too, just convenience. Hard to choke another $100 for that convenience though -- at that point you could buy a nice lift kit for another $100 and really be set (if you get into more routing). I've heard good things about the bosch too.

I'd definitely stay away from Craftsman and Ryobi.

Mike

swithey

08-23-06, 01:45 PM

hi swithey,

What type of wood are those and where do you buy them? Does Home Depot, Lowes or Menards carry those type of woods? I like the surface, looks like it is smooth. Is it?
Ivan is right. It is soft maple 1x6 stock. It is very smooth (very little sanding needed) and I did need to purchase it at a specialty store. Each 10' board was about $15. (6) of the (8) stained up nicely along nearly the entire length of the board. The other (2) had large places where there was a branch or something and stained very dark (even after a shellac seal coat). I've gotten spoiled with the evenness of the veneers. What this means is I'll need to get a few more pieces so I can use the "good" parts of the wood and trash the rest. I'll post some pic tonight to show you what I'm talking about.

I put the 3rd coat of stain on them last night so I plan to cut and dry-fit them starting tonight. Once they are cut, I'll touch up the edges, shoot them with some clear and get them installed. At that point I'll know how much more I need to buy. Luckily, I still need to get the bar area and front wall completed so the "extra" stock needed will not be installed until later anyway.

tshepherd

08-23-06, 02:05 PM

Steve, what do you use for a spray gun? Curious as I'm in the market for one and whatever you're using seems to work pretty darn well.

swithey

08-23-06, 02:24 PM

Thanks everyone on the Router suggestions. I think I'm going with the Dewalt combo model (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00006JKXE/ref=pd_rvi_gw_3/102-6278100-5504168?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=228013). It seems to have the smoothest plunging, all the bells and whistles I need and a good price/performance compromise.

Tedd: I like the power of the Freud (and the price) but I read because of it's weight and size, it would be difficult to use in a hand-operate mode. Most of the work I'm doing "today" is hand operated.

Cathan: Thanks for the link to the review. They really liked the Dewalt --- which helped make my decision

tshepherd: A buddy of mine is looking for a router too and said the plunging on the PC was not as smooth as the Dewalt. Since they were basically the same price, I went for the smoother plunging. However, I did hear that the PC has a nice easy adjustment knob.

MarkP: Hitachi was definitely on my list. Looks good but the Dewalt was a little better deal on the combo package.

Toxarch: Yes, the $25 off and free shipping really makes it easy to buy ANY of the routers from Amazon.

miltimj/Tim: Thanks for another vote for Bosch. I read that they have good tools. Dewalt may not be the best one out there but as MarkP said with my limited use (at least for now) nearly any of them will work for me.

accts4mjs/Mike: I've heard the same about how Sears stuff is just cheap now. In fact, I think the Sears is either Skil or Ryobe in disguise. Some of their tools are not like they used to be when I was growing up. My Dad still has great working Sears circular "skill" saw. The only problem is it uses some funky blade size that is not available anymore.

v1rtu0s1ty

08-23-06, 02:30 PM

swithey

08-23-06, 02:43 PM

Steve, what do you use for a spray gun? Curious as I'm in the market for one and whatever you're using seems to work pretty darn well.
I'm actually breaking a few rules when I spray. My compressor is a bit undersized for spraying. I can only spray a few things before I need to stop and let the compressor recover. I have a Campbell Hausfeld sprayer (http://www.aircompressorsdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=134&source=other) (actually I'm borrowing it from a neighbor). It sells at HD for about $60. I really want to get my own Turbine sprayer setup (no large compressor needed) but am just putting it off. I will probably get something nice when I take on our master closet remodel.

If I was getting a compressor/sprayer setup today, you really want a HVLP sprayer and at least a 25gal compressor -- about a $350-$400 investment. A "medium duty" Turbine sprayer (http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/accuspray.htm) setup can be had for about $600-$800.

swithey

08-23-06, 03:09 PM

Hi swithey, thanks for the reply. Can you recommend to me a router that is not too expensive but does the job? Or anyone please? I'll just be using this router for my future basement project and not as a daily job.

Thanks!
Depending on the type of routing you want to do, you could get a basic straight router (no plunging) to save a few $$. HD has both a Ryobe and Skil under $70. I've been using my 10+ year old Sears for some time and it woks great for straight work.

If you want one that plunges too, Skil makes a $99 combo router setup. It has both pluge and straight routing bases. It's a great deal but my friend says it does not feel as solid as the others. They sell them at HD also.

But it all comes down to your applicaton. If you plan to route MDF and soft woods, the cheaper routers will probably do fine. However, if you get into harder woods, the cheaper routers might not have enough AMPS to keep up the blade speed and bog down.

I'm sure some experts can ring in with a bit more detail.

tshepherd

08-23-06, 03:40 PM

I'm actually breaking a few rules when I spray. My compressor is a bit undersized for spraying. I can only spray a few things before I need to stop and let the compressor recover. I have a Campbell Hausfeld sprayer (http://www.aircompressorsdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=134&source=other) (actually I'm borrowing it from a neighbor). It sells at HD for about $60. I really want to get my own Turbine sprayer setup (no large compressor needed) but am just putting it off. I will probably get something nice when I take on our master closet remodel.

If I was getting a compressor/sprayer setup today, you really want a HVLP sprayer and at least a 25gal compressor -- about a $350-$400 investment. A "medium duty" Turbine sprayer (http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/accuspray.htm) setup can be had for about $600-$800.

Thanks Steve. I may try and get by with the "broken rule" version for a while myself. I've got a small-ish compressor already (8 gal), so if I can limp by with that for a while I'll be happy. I'll check out the campbell hausfeld model you mentioned...

Tom

ifeliciano

08-23-06, 11:40 PM

Mark P

08-24-06, 12:34 AM

Heavy and bulky isnt such a bad thing when it comes to plunge routing, infact I welcome having to grunt a little placing the router and then barely any energy in the routing process itself. I still have a Porter Cable from a decade or so ago but have had the fix it a couple times when I thought I would see if the Hitachi was up to the task of routing for about eight hours a day for a couple weeks straight with no rest on a theater and building a home last year. Some of that routing consisted of 1" roundovers on hardwood hour after hour and its still running strong.

While Dewalts "fatboy" kits , orbital sanders, Roto zips, and 12" sliding chop miter saws are some of the best around, I have found some of their stuff to be Black & Deckerish which is who owns DeWalt if I am not mistaken. Their jig saws and circular saws are about an inch from being complete garbage. Let us know how their router performs on those speakers and subwoofer. Even though its MDF or Baltic Birch, it will be a workout if you flush mount and build 1-1/2" or thicker Baffles.

I know this is obvious but route the flush mount to depth first and dont forget to account for the weather stripping or driver gasket materials, I would get at least a 3/4" wide x 1-1/2" long straight plunge bit http://www.carbide.com/catalog/RBits-SS-straight.cfm to do all your driver cutouts and you will see why when you start. If not you may have to double up your routing. An 1-1/2"flush cut bit http://www.carbide.com/catalog/RBits-SS-flush-detail.cfm for smoothing all the edges is REAL nice as well and it takes a meaty router to swing these bits.

v1rtu0s1ty

08-24-06, 02:00 AM

Sorry folks, what is the difference between a router and a plunge router? I know the basic things it can do like trimming edges of a wood with a shape. Do I really need both?

ifeliciano

08-24-06, 02:04 AM

Even though its MDF or Baltic Birch, it will be a workout if you flush mount and build 1-1/2" or thicker Baffles.

I don't agree with that statement Mark. I've had the same combo Steve is looking to buy for three years, and I can't recall the last time It bogged down cutting 1" or 1.5" baffles for subwoofer assemblies. If that ocuurs with the DW618 combo I would attribute it to a dull bit. MDF tends to dull up bits and blades easily. :eek:

1.5" Front baffle no problem (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7339806&&#post7339806) I normally use a 1/2" up-cut spiral bit and make up for the difference on the jasper jig.

accts4mjs

08-24-06, 02:31 AM

Sorry folks, what is the difference between a router and a plunge router? I know the basic things it can do like trimming edges of a wood with a shape. Do I really need both?

Checkout a book on routers at your local library (or buy one from Barnes & Noble or wherever). Plunge routing is great for starting the routing in the middle of the wood somewhere (where you plunge the spinning bit into the wood, run it around or whatever, then pull it back out when you're done). If you're just doing edges or mounting it in a table you probably won't need the plunge base.

I bought a kit and have used the plunger a few times. Honestly they're not that much more and if you buy a decent one (like the freud, bosch, dewalt or Porter Cable) then you'll most likely have a long time and it'll do most of what you'll ever need. Very handy indeed!

Mike

accts4mjs

08-24-06, 02:35 AM

If I was getting a compressor/sprayer setup today, you really want a HVLP sprayer and at least a 25gal compressor -- about a $350-$400 investment. A "medium duty" Turbine sprayer (http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/accuspray.htm) setup can be had for about $600-$800.

One thing to be aware of (I used to own a turbine) is that they're very difficult to use. Yes, I'm sure you're saying to yourself, but I'm good at things like that, I'll be able to figure it out easily. So am I and I thought the same thing. A friend of mine is a car painter and uses HVLPs daily -- he said I shouldn't even bother. I could do just as good a job with a conventional gun (they have more overspray) and I wouldn't have to worry about the learning curve. Basically to use an HVLP well (so I've been told and so I've experienced) you need to use them pretty regularly to get the hang of them.

So, in my case I just use a conventional gun or my airless. But, I leave to you the choice (oh and cleanup on those things are beyond evil!).

Mike

bpape

08-24-06, 06:36 AM

I keep waiting for Al Borland to show up with a plaid shirt on....

Bryan

Tedd

08-24-06, 09:13 AM

The Freud is a little bulkier, but it has excellent balance for hand routing. I think the extra weight is a plus for hand routing. I happen to own a non plunge Sears 1.5 hp router also. Decent tool but I don't think I have used it once since I bought the Freud. Electonic speed control and 3.5 hp has me spoiled.

swithey

08-24-06, 09:56 AM

You guys are making this really difficult. The extra weight argument may be a good one. I'm actually planning to table mount this thing from time to time on my Dad's ShopSmith. They really recommend a meaty router and the Freud was one they recommended. I figured since my Dad bought the expensive tool and the router accessories, I could splurge for the router (hmm, $3500 for the ShipSmith, $200 for the router -- wonder who came out ahead on this deal :D)

I guess if I ever need a light-duty straight router, I'll have my old Sears to get me by (which works out very well but adjustments are a bit challenging).

Thanks again guys.

And for you Bryan, here's the plaid LOL!
http://www.dumbdistraction.com/Images/alborland.gif

Mark P

08-24-06, 10:37 AM

I don't agree with that statement Mark. I've had the same combo Steve is looking to buy for three years, and I can't recall the last time It bogged down cutting 1" or 1.5" baffles for subwoofer assemblies. If that ocuurs with the DW618 combo I would attribute it to a dull bit. MDF tends to dull up bits and blades easily. :eek:

1.5" Front baffle no problem (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7339806&&#post7339806) I normally use a 1/2" up-cut spiral bit and make up for the difference on the jasper jig. I dont think anything would bog down using a 1/2 upspiral, if it did I hope it would be pulled from the market. Heck, if it bogs hurling any bit, I wouldnt buy it.

Considering there are 4 holes ( minimum, including vent) per baffle and each hole has 2 jasper jig adjustments using a 3/4" bit ( 1 for flush mount, 1 for driver hole) thats 56 cuts on a 7.1 setup without cleaning up the outer edges or doing roundovers. I figured saving him 28 cuts of adjustment and making the most annoying dust possible was worth the $5. Also if someones never used a Jasper jig they might just adjust the wrong way in the heat of battle against the MDF dust storm and drying out of the eyes, then you have to grab the bondo and wait fo it to dry. Regardless, alot of people that build speakers arent done after their first set whether it be more for themselves or family or friends.

I have burned up 3 " fatboy" kits in 7 years, granted we build some things that can be tough on tools but DeWalts reputation with us is that it will be replaced and sometimes we get lucky and a battery will outlast a tool so we stick with them. It always seems like they dont get 1 part quite right and it renders the tool useless after a shorter than expected period of time. They do have some great stuff while it lasts though like their 18 volt sawzall ( blade keeper will ultimately fail fairly quick but you cant match the BPM of their blade while it does stay in the keeper without monkeying with it for a couple minutes) as well as their 18 and 24 volt Drills that the chuckless bit holder strips and you can beat it on a hard surface or tap a hammer or wrench on the side of it to change bits or driver tips.

While building a resort in Fiji, anything DeWalt(Black & Decker) has spares like 3 fatboys, 2 sliding chop saws, 3 rotozips just from knowing how their stuff performs in abusive building enviornments. It looks good, feels good, usually fairly cheap and easily available, just not the longest lasting.

When I tried the Hitachi router I looked at the bundle that came with it and thought everything resembled High quality build and bulk for a great pricepoint, If I had subjected a DeWalt to the same aggressive building we do, I would wager a large sum that it would be toast fairly quick.

I have alot of Framer friends that buy the Hitachi Framing nailers ( very light and rock and roll all day) but they seem to have to mess around with the head now and again and this really sucks if your 50' in the air , we use these nailers http://www.toolbarn.com/product/maxtools/SN890RH/ and I doubt they will ever fail in a decade and the funny thing is they are the same price as a Senco, Hitachi. Certain companys just make the best of certain types of tools like Bosch and their jig saws. Find Owner operator contractors in the business for 20 years and ask them what they use. DeWalts fatboys,12" sliders and orbital sanders will usually be on the list, but thats it.

ebr

08-24-06, 10:43 AM

Hey, Bryan - hold this right here...and hand me that axe... ;)

ifeliciano

08-24-06, 11:43 AM

I dont think anything would bog down using a 1/2 upspiral, if it did I hope it would be pulled from the market. Heck, if it bogs hurling any bit, I wouldnt buy it.

Considering there are 4 holes ( minimum, including vent) per baffle and each hole has 2 jasper jig adjustments using a 3/4" bit ( 1 for flush mount, 1 for driver hole) thats 56 cuts on a 7.1 setup without cleaning up the outer edges or doing roundovers. I figured saving him 28 cuts of adjustment and making the most annoying dust possible was worth the $5. Also if someones never used a Jasper jig they might just adjust the wrong way in the heat of battle against the MDF dust storm and drying out of the eyes, then you have to grab the bondo and wait fo it to dry. Regardless, alot of people that build speakers arent done after their first set whether it be more for themselves or family or friends.

I have burned up 3 " fatboy" kits in 7 years, granted we build some things that can be tough on tools but DeWalts reputation with us is that it will be replaced and sometimes we get lucky and a battery will outlast a tool so we stick with them. It always seems like they dont get 1 part quite right and it renders the tool useless after a shorter than expected period of time. They do have some great stuff while it lasts though like their 18 volt sawzall ( blade keeper will ultimately fail fairly quick but you cant match the BPM of their blade while it does stay in the keeper without monkeying with it for a couple minutes) as well as their 18 and 24 volt Drills that the chuckless bit holder strips and you can beat it on a hard surface or tap a hammer or wrench on the side of it to change bits or driver tips.

While building a resort in Fiji, anything DeWalt(Black & Decker) has spares like 3 fatboys, 2 sliding chop saws, 3 rotozips just from knowing how their stuff performs in abusive building enviornments. It looks good, feels good, usually fairly cheap and easily available, just not the longest lasting.

When I tried the Hitachi router I looked at the bundle that came with it and thought everything resembled High quality build and bulk for a great pricepoint, If I had subjected a DeWalt to the same aggressive building we do, I would wager a large sum that it would be toast fairly quick.

I have alot of Framer friends that buy the Hitachi Framing nailers ( very light and rock and roll all day) but they seem to have to mess around with the head now and again and this really sucks if your 50' in the air , we use these nailers http://www.toolbarn.com/product/maxtools/SN890RH/ and I doubt they will ever fail in a decade and the funny thing is they are the same price as a Senco, Hitachi. Certain companys just make the best of certain types of tools like Bosch and their jig saws. Find Owner operator contractors in the business for 20 years and ask them what they use. DeWalts fatboys,12" sliders and orbital sanders will usually be on the list, but thats it.

Well darn. Now you're gonna make me get rid of my not-so-trusty DW618 kit. :(

Mark P

08-24-06, 04:37 PM

Im sure it has a shot at being a great router and probably is, DeWalt just make me nervous when it comes to industrial type things like Plunge routers. Heck the Hitachi was a shot in the dark that happened to be a very decent buy. Again, everyone make tools on friday afternoon at 4:00 pm, its a crap shoot

accts4mjs

08-25-06, 03:15 PM

Hey Steve,

My brother-in-law (also a huge OU fan) just sent me this little teaser video of OU getting ready for the season (it's some highlights from their 2004 season):

http://www.soonersports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=300&ATCLID=575189

Mike

VorlonFog

08-25-06, 03:55 PM

Okay, now that we've somewhat hijacked Steve's construction thread ;) I figured I'd ask the experts if this Skil router (http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=109589-353-1825) is such a bad deal for infrequent hobbyist use? It seems to me the price is definitely right, the 2.25 HP rating is good, and an interchangeable plunge base makes for a pretty decent tool.

Mark P

08-25-06, 04:44 PM

VorlanFog,
It just depends, while 2-1/4 hp is enough for some stuff, 3-1/4 hp plunge routers wont chew up bits and will handle alot of things just short of owning a shaper which I also have.

I have laminate routers that wouldnt route pine but will trim counter tops at the speed of light.

Some here have routed speaker cabinets with 1-1/2 baffles using 2-1/4 hp combos and say they work, I can honestly say I have never owned a combo but I swing large bits most of the time since speed, minimal cuts, and not going through $19 - $200 router bits is usually priority. Again its always a crap shoot with tools unless your certain of the projects you will be working on

accts4mjs

08-25-06, 05:07 PM

Be wary of buying tools like routers and such with crazy claims on HP. Usually in fine print you'll see "peak HP" -- which is the theoretical output if the engine (or in this case motor) were 100% efficient and is way more than the tool can produce normally or more importantly under load. Most motors will probably perform around 50-65% efficiency (the rest is usually heat) and in the case of an 11amp 120v motor at 64% efficiency you end up with 1-1/8 HP (not under load most likely) or at 50% you get 7/8 HP. And so I would pay more attention to amps not "peak" HP when comparing one tool to another (powerwise).

If you're interested you can play with a chart at (be sure to choose single phase):
http://www.actionmachinery.com/kva.htm

Mike

rlowe

08-25-06, 08:56 PM

Mark P

08-25-06, 09:25 PM

Exactly accts4.

since Swithey ( his thread) is doing ALOT of routing and appears to like it and still has a 7.1 speaker project to do lets compare some plunge routers

we will start with five: Bosch, Porter Cable, Hitachi, Dewalt ( combo), and someone through in a SKIL combo

the Bosch, Porter and Hitachi are all not combos but 3-1/4 hp Plunge routers, they are all 15 amp, maintain constant speed under load and the Bosch and PC have 1 year parts warranty and the PC has NO SERVICE, the Bosch has 1 year service. The Hitachi has a 5 year unconditional warranty

Bosch and Porter cable are both made in the good ole USA but unfortunately have a $300 + on the internet price tag, Hitachi is made in Japan and runs as low as $159 on the internet.

Now for the DeWalt Combo , read these reviews which kind of follow my experience with dewalt products http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/B00006JKXB/ref=cm_cr_dp_pt/002-3691587-0379263?ie=UTF8&n=228013&s=hi
As I said before , DeWalt is cute and compfy, but usually junk in my experience

As far as the Skil combo, I am not into combos for the obvious reasons and the obvious reason is Plunge routers are usually used for things that take precise plunging and more often than not pretty brutal conditions, anything that twists, snaps, wingnuts, duct tapes together makes me nervous when working on a expensive project. I have not bought anything with the name Skil on it since high school 25 years ago when that tool went up in smoke. Now their worm drive saws seem to be popular as all get out on some of the major construction sites

Mark P

08-25-06, 09:40 PM

Hey Mark P,

Are you the same Mark on woodworking.com?

While we are off the topic of theater, and on the topic of theater building tools, I thought I would jump in with bit recommendations. Whiteside bits are top notch. You can get them for a reasonable price on a site called Briar Toys, based in Houston, I think.

I second the Hitachi. Great price/quality ratio.

RNot me on woodworking.com but he sounds like a real nice guy ;)

I buy bits locally at none other than a Plastics Extruder place but they have exceptional bits, on the net I use these guys http://www.carbide.com/catalog/catalog.cfm Great selection and quality, I spend alot on blades and bits and its always paid off.

The Hitachi is an amazing router and comes with an awesome accessories pack, just unbeatable in the consumer priced / pro performance tools.

I am a personal contractor / build / designer for a rather wealthy guy, I used to have my own General contracting company but he sort of "stole" me away from the headache and since then I have became an expensive handyman or sorts. I still do major jobs but they are alot more fun and profitable. Hes a major perfectionist with a "spare no expense" attitude which allows me some excitement

bpape

08-27-06, 11:33 PM

Thanks Steve - I feel much better now. :D All this tool talk... I just needed an authority figure.

ifeliciano

08-27-06, 11:45 PM

I am a personal contractor / build / designer for a rather wealthy guy, I used to have my own General contracting company but he sort of "stole" me away from the headache and since then I have became an expensive handyman or sorts. I still do major jobs but they are alot more fun and profitable. Hes a major perfectionist with a "spare no expense" attitude which allows me some excitement

Can I come work with you ? I promise I'll throw my DeWalt router away. :D

Ivan

swithey

08-28-06, 01:14 AM

Update…

As always, got some work done this weekend but not as much as I wanted. David, thanks again for all you help. It would have been impossible to put up that drywall on the ceiling without you :)

Wet Bar
------------
Made the light boxes for the can lights following the Gary Kagan Methodology (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7455259&&#post7455259). ¾ MDF box with ½ Hardyboard inside.

Here is the raw box
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/WB-LightBox1.JPG

Here it is hung in the ceiling. Also notice the 1" thick furring strips I added to the ceiling joists. Both bpape and Tedd at Green Glue suggested I use this method. The furring strips are screwed using 3" deck screws and liquid nailed (Tedds suggestion) to the joists. AND -- I just noticed I screwed the drywall screws that hold the drywall to the furring stips throught the furrring stips into the joists (that is a no-no). I'll get that fixed before I add the second layer of drywall -- Doh!
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/WB-LightBox2.JPG

Here is the completed 1st layer of drywall with the (2) boxes installed. Green Glue will not be here until Wed/Thur of this week.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/WB-LightBox3.JPG

I also plan to use Green Glue (http://www.greengluecompany.com/) on all but one wall in the wet bar area because they are shared with my daughters room. I’d like to reduce any bass transference as much as possible. After a short conversation with Tedd at Green Glue, he suggested I use a modified Staggered Stud design to improve things a bit. The basic premise is to make the wall header and wall footer 1” wider and add 2x4’s every 24” on center. It was minimal cost and not too hard to do.

NOTE: AVS Users get a 10% discount if you use coupon code "avsuser". Tedd told me about it after I told him I heard about him on the AVS Forum.

Here is the “before wall”
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/WB-StaggerdStud1.JPG

Here is the wall with the 1” strip added to the bottom wall footer board
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/WB-StaggerdStud2.JPG

Here is the stagger stud installed (I still need to add the extra layer of R13 before the 1st layer of drywall goes up)
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/WB-StaggerdStud3.JPG

Trim and Baseboards
-------------------------------
I sprayed the 3rd coat of clear on all the trim tonight. What’s left is to add the 45deg backer (ripped down 2x4) to the walls so I can easily attached the crown to the wall. I’ll have pics of that once I get some up on the wall.

Here is the custom made crown that I made out of a single sheet of 4x8 maple plywood. If you look at this compared to the next pic you will notice how even the plywood is compare to the solid stock.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Trim-CrownStainComplete.JPG

Here is the base molding. Solid stock has darker areas and “character” with this wood (it does look more even in person). I plan to cut out the really bad stuff and purchase a few more pieces to make up the difference. If you look to the very left, you will see an unstained board. That is the one I will be taking back. You can see the darker spots in the board. This stains a lot darker.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Trim-BaseStainComplete.JPG

rsberg34

08-28-06, 07:02 AM

VorlonFog

08-28-06, 08:31 AM

Hey, Steve!! Looks like you've been a busy camper this week. ;) Beautiful work on those light boxes and wall framing and I love that maple.

swithey

08-28-06, 05:08 PM

One thing to be aware of (I used to own a turbine) is that they're very difficult to use. Yes, I'm sure you're saying to yourself, but I'm good at things like that, I'll be able to figure it out easily. So am I and I thought the same thing. A friend of mine is a car painter and uses HVLPs daily -- he said I shouldn't even bother. I could do just as good a job with a conventional gun (they have more overspray) and I wouldn't have to worry about the learning curve. Basically to use an HVLP well (so I've been told and so I've experienced) you need to use them pretty regularly to get the hang of them.

So, in my case I just use a conventional gun or my airless. But, I leave to you the choice (oh and cleanup on those things are beyond evil!).

Mike
Good info to know. I guess I need to try one out and see how well I do with it. Thanks!

swithey

08-28-06, 05:22 PM

Not me on woodworking.com but he sounds like a real nice guy ;)

I buy bits locally at none other than a Plastics Extruder place but they have exceptional bits, on the net I use these guys http://www.carbide.com/catalog/catalog.cfm Great selection and quality, I spend alot on blades and bits and its always paid off.

The Hitachi is an amazing router and comes with an awesome accessories pack, just unbeatable in the consumer priced / pro performance tools.

I am a personal contractor / build / designer for a rather wealthy guy, I used to have my own General contracting company but he sort of "stole" me away from the headache and since then I have became an expensive handyman or sorts. I still do major jobs but they are alot more fun and profitable. Hes a major perfectionist with a "spare no expense" attitude which allows me some excitement
Any issues with the Freud bits? I was just planning to order the along with my Freud router. Yep - decided to get the Freud.

swithey

08-28-06, 05:28 PM

Great job on the light box's. It looks like you set thier depth at just one layer of drywall is that true or is it jsut hard to tell in the pics?

I havent decided how I am going to handle that issue yet since I plan to do a large star ceiling and would like ot have a fwe recessed lights in the field like Drew did. I just started my build a few days ago, Ive got all the framing complete on top of Dricore flooring with DC04's and moved a few HVAC runs and plan to be drywalling as soon as I get my RSIC clips from Bpape (hopefully in a few days). I will have to decide how to handle the lighting soon and may just go with this design as well.

Keep up the great work....when will you be putting the star ceiling in that beautiful framework you made?

Robert
Yes, the light boxes are flush with the 1st layer of drywall (just like Gary Kagan did). I'll then put the 2nd layer over the box completely and cut out the hole for the light.

Star ceiling is coming but I think I will build the speakers 1st. The wife is pestering me to get the room "movie ready" so we can watch a few "test" movies :)

swithey

08-28-06, 05:29 PM

Hey, Steve!! Looks like you've been a busy camper this week. ;) Beautiful work on those light boxes and wall framing and I love that maple.
Thanks Keith. I plan to work on the trim this week and hopefully get most of it up. I think it will really help to tie the room together.

Eddie Horton

08-28-06, 05:40 PM

Really looking good. You guys are my inspiration till this shoulder thing passes.

garykagan

08-29-06, 12:05 AM

rsberg34

08-29-06, 07:17 AM

Which particular lights are you going to put in those boxs?

Robert

swithey

08-29-06, 04:45 PM

Buying Frenzy…

I bought a bunch of stuff for the HT today. My credit card feels a bit warm right now :D

Pre/Pro (as ebr likes to call it). This will eventually be married to a separate 7-channel amp. I want to see how well it performs on it’s own before I make the purchase.

Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/product/details/0,,2076_310069789_310985777,00.html )
I bought it here (http://www.4electronicwarehouse.com/products/elite/vsx-82txs.html). You’ll need to call them for the best price (their website lists MSRP). They are an Authorized Elite Dealer :)
-- This model even has a Faroudja(r) DCDi(r) HD Video Scaler built-in. Not too bad for the price.

http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/PioEliteVSX-82TXS-Front.jpg
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/PioEliteVSX-82TXS-Rear.jpg

Blue rope lighting
Bought it from HERE (http://www.ccl-light.com/docs/indoor/rope/color/120vstandard/colqk150/index.html?COLQK150-catnum=LAND&COLQK150-choice1=&COLQK150.x=101&COLQK150.y=7)

http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/BlueRopeLight.jpg

Router and Bits

Freud Freud FT2000EP (thanks for the tip Tedd)
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/FreudFT2000EP Router.jpg
Bought it HERE (http://www.tylertool.com/frft3hpelvas.html). Amazon sold out so I had to find another source :(

Freud 12-156 (http://www.amazon.com/Freud-12-156-3-4/dp/B0000225W2/sr=8-3/qid=1156878256/ref=sr_1_3/102-6278100-5504168?ie=UTF8) 3/4" Diameter by 1-1/2" Double Flute Straight Bit
Purpose: Cut speaker openings

Freud 42-114 (http://www.amazon.com/Freud-42-114-Bearing/dp/B0000225YC/sr=1-1/qid=1156878287/ref=sr_1_1/102-6278100-5504168?ie=UTF8&s=hi) 1 1/2" Bearing Flush Trim Bit
Purpose: Trim MDF edges on speaker

Velepec VEL-22-380 (http://www.carbide.com/catalog/searchRBDetail.cfm?ID=VEL-22-380&caller=order2.cfm) Carbide-tipped 2 flute round over bit 3/4" radius 1/2" shank (thanks for the link and advice MarkP)
Purpose: Trim out material behind tweeter

Jasper Jig (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00009K77A/ref=ord_cart_shr/102-6278100-5504168?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance&n=228013) to cut perfect "circular" holes for the speaker openings

http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Jasper200.jpg

Still to purchase:
- Fiber Optics and light box for Star Ceiling
- Projector (most likely the Infocus IN76)
- (4) 15" SoundSplinter woofers -- can't wait to install these babies
- And about a 100 other little things (but the list is getting quite a bit shorter) :p

swithey

08-29-06, 04:52 PM

Really looking good. You guys are my inspiration till this shoulder thing passes.
Thanks Eddie. I'm watching your HT build and things are looking good :) Hope you feel better soon!

swithey

08-29-06, 05:12 PM

Those boxes look great! Nice and wide, you should have no problems with the clips if you are using the remodeling hats. I see that pipe going down the wall, you plan to put a peice of metal in front of it I hope - I can't tell what kind of pipe it is.

keep it up!

Gary

p.s. check out my thread in the morning - Fabric Frames started! Yes, I made the boxes larger to give the light room to breath. The pipe is a vent for the bathroom drain below. I guess it would be safer to cover that up with some metal so I don;t accidentally put a nail into it. Thanks for the tip. BTW -- I'm heading over to your thread now to see your frames!

Which particular lights are you going to put in those boxs?

Robert This is the light I plan to buy and put in the box. It is an IC rated Air-Tight unit (http://www.usalight.com/product.php?productid=154&cat=60&page=1). I could probably go Non-IC which would save me a few $$. If anyone has any advice either way, please let me know before I order them. Gary, I think you used IC rated cans in your light boxes.

http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/athousing.jpg

garykagan

08-29-06, 07:56 PM

Go with the IC rated and forget the headaches. I believe non IC need 3" on all side with no contact. Not sure you have enough room for that in the boxes.

Gary

swithey

08-29-06, 08:30 PM

Go with the IC rated and forget the headaches. I believe non IC need 3" on all side with no contact. Not sure you have enough room for that in the boxes.

Gary
I have the room on the sides but not on the top (one reason I was not planning to get the non-IC rated cans). Any reason to get air-tight IC vs . regular IC? The cost is the same so I figured getting air-tight would not hurt anything.

VorlonFog

08-29-06, 08:55 PM

Steve: My more-frequent-than-weekly trips to Lowes and HD over the last few months are almost always put on my card. So far, the worst expenses have been the pj and screen (direct from InFocus last October), all the moldings (a real biggie!) and the three most indispensible tools: table saw, mitre saw, and 2-inch brad nailer.

Despite the warmth you're feeling, that's one sweet-*ss Pioneer Elite unit you've got there. :D

SVonhof

08-29-06, 09:28 PM

bpape

08-29-06, 10:06 PM

We were originally going to try to hide the PJ in the cabinet in the rear but the throw on most PJs wouldn't work. I think he's still planning on a pole mount.

Bryan

ebr

08-29-06, 11:01 PM

We were originally going to try to hide the PJ in the cabinet in the rear but the throw on most PJs wouldn't work. I think he's still planning on a pole mount.

Bryan

I had to drop my Ruby as well. Not that big of a deal - a chief mount and some galvanized pipe from Lowes and viola.

Eddie Horton

08-29-06, 11:44 PM

Thanks Eddie. I'm watching your HT build and things are looking good :) Hope you feel better soon!

Thanks, man. Look for more updates this week. :)

garykagan

08-30-06, 06:15 AM

I have the room on the sides but not on the top (one reason I was not planning to get the non-IC rated cans). Any reason to get air-tight IC vs . regular IC? The cost is the same so I figured getting air-tight would not hurt anything.

If it's the same price, I'd go for the sealed IC rated cans. Less sound should get through the sealed cans and nothing should get through the sealed boxes.

gk

larryep

08-30-06, 06:55 AM

nice receiver Steve. like the hdmi switching. Should sound great.

thanks for the link.

rsberg34

08-30-06, 06:57 AM

Thanks....I will have to look into those cans now as I am nearing that stage. Just got my RSIC rom Bpape so Im not far from needing to build can boxs of some sort. What material did you line the MDF boxs with?

Robert

miked2024

08-30-06, 10:06 AM

Robert,

I think Steve used Gary Kagan's method described in his construction thread and in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=654719) dedicated thread. He lined the mdf with GG and hardi-board.

Mark P

08-30-06, 10:54 AM

swithey

08-30-06, 02:33 PM

Steve, I know your ceiling is higher than mine, but make sure you can handle the image offset of the IN76. I was going to get this projector until I found out I would have to tilt it toward the ceiling and then use the keystone correction, since it doesn't line up with the screen like my old projector did. Standard installation of this projector requires you to have the top of the screen lower than the center of the lens on the PJ (with a 100" screen, it was something like 22 inches that I would have to lower it). I went with the Sony HS51A instead and love it.
Dammit Scott -- you made me THINK about this a bit more! :D

I went ahead and pulled a "swithey" and made a drawing to be sure. Contrary to what bpape said (and he was correct), I CAN now put it in the rear cabinet without any trouble. This is due to the fact that I am now using a VC Anamorphic lens (Panamorph U85). This lens allows me to move the projector way back to the rear of the room -- NICE!

Here is the IN76 calc spreadsheet. Based on a 9.5' wide screen, the center of the lens needs to be 10" above the top of the screen. With my high ceilings, it is still quite a bit lower from the "top" of the room. -- so I'm good to go.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IN76Calc.JPG

Here is a "Side View" of how everything will lay out. I think we're good and the bottom of the projector box will be at 7'. This is well above any "non-sport" human being (so no bumped heads on the box).
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/ScreenOffset.jpg

swithey

08-30-06, 03:10 PM

swithey

08-30-06, 03:11 PM

If it's the same price, I'd go for the sealed IC rated cans. Less sound should get through the sealed cans and nothing should get through the sealed boxes.

gk
Thanks for the confirmation Gary.

swithey

08-30-06, 03:58 PM

nice receiver Steve. like the hdmi switching. Should sound great.

thanks for the link.
Larry,

Check your PM.

swithey

08-30-06, 04:03 PM

Just curious why you decided on the one year warranty Freud and not the 5 year parts and labor Hitachi?They are identical routers. 5 years is a long time when it comes to routing if you plan on routing a bunch.

Anyway, lets see some speakers!
My Dad paid 1/2 the cost and really wanted the Freud. He will be attaching this to his ShopSmith and that is the one "ShopSmith" recommended. The Hitachi may be a better deal (in fact it was actually cheaper). And, hopefully I will not have a warranty issue with it after year 1. After this project, it's use will be limited.

Speaker building starting soon :)

bpape

08-30-06, 10:05 PM

So when is Rick going to have those xovers done for you?

Bryan

swithey

08-31-06, 10:27 AM

So when is Rick going to have those xovers done for you?

Bryan
He is done and should be shipping the parts and assembled XOs for all 7 speakers soon :) He is extremely happy how the LCRs turned out. I cannot wait to get them built so I can listen to them myself.

Mark P

08-31-06, 10:55 AM

swithey

08-31-06, 11:08 AM

Are you doing external crossovers for additional tweaking, or incase they sound too bright or something you can try different caps and resistors? You could even put all 3 front speaker XO's in one neat little box behind the center channel.

I have seen some guys add an inch or two to the depth and just make a neat lid, ofcourse the lids are always off and they are always trying the latest greatest.

Did you talk to your designer about heavy density felt lining inside? This seems to have made the biggest difference of all tweaks in my playing around.
Mark,
I never considered putting the XOs in a separate box -- hmm, might look into that. I thought you wanted the wiring to be as short as possible?? Since this is my 1st DIY speakers, I don't plan to mess with them too much in the beginning. However, if they are a bit bright for my tastes, I'm sure I will make the needed adjustments.

I did talk with Rick (http://www.selahaudio.com/) (the designer) and he said there are a lot of materials that I could use. He mentioned the composite layer damping sheets (http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&Webpage_ID=3&DID=7&CAT_ID=35&ObjectGroup_ID=37&SO=2) from Parts Express work well. However, I'm also interested in your felt. Where do I purchase that suff? How much does it cost? I would think JoAnns does not have stuff quite that dense.

ifeliciano

08-31-06, 12:48 PM

... He mentioned the composite layer damping sheets (http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&Webpage_ID=3&DID=7&CAT_ID=35&ObjectGroup_ID=37&SO=2) from Parts Express work well. . .

I removed the drivers on my speakers and they have this kind of "foam" (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=260-525) in them.

http://www.partsexpress.com/imageslarge/260-525L.jpg

Mark P

08-31-06, 02:43 PM

Industrial wool felt, gray/blue in color used as padding on isolators for heavy equiptment as well as horse saddle pads, I had a sizable roll of 3/8" needled ( also comes pressed, cant remember whats better) but I have used every inch of it. I get it locally at a felt distributor but I am sure theres lots of it on the web.

When you wrap your knuckles on the side of a speaker cabinet thats been wool felted it sounds like wrapping your knuckles on marble. No resonance, the old timer speaker builers still swear by this stuff as having no equal but maybe they have developed a better mouse trap, I cant see how when you get a piece of this in your hands. It also has to go in before you glue the front baffle on.

The stuff is very pricey but worth the money with the quality of theater you are building and will only increase the quality of your speakers. I am busy now but will find a link to the stuff later if you want, I want to say the stuff is like $30-$50 a yard but when you go to cut it, you will see why

ifeliciano

08-31-06, 02:49 PM

Hey Mark,

Is it this stuff here ? -> http://www.sutherlandfelt.com/needle.htm

bpape

08-31-06, 02:56 PM

swithey

08-31-06, 03:35 PM

Hey Mark,

Is it this stuff here ? -> http://www.sutherlandfelt.com/needle.htm
I just called them and for 3/8" F15-N Needle Punched Felt (72" wide), it runs $19.31/linear yard + shipping. $50 minimum order.

swithey

08-31-06, 03:43 PM

swithey

08-31-06, 03:55 PM

I removed the drivers on my speakers and they have this kind of "foam" (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=260-525) in them.

http://www.partsexpress.com/imageslarge/260-525L.jpg
Ivan,

One of the guys that built these speakers used a version of that but with ridges.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/RS3ways/DSCN3751.jpg http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/RS3ways/DSCN3750.jpg http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/RS3ways/DSCN3749.jpg

He bought it from HERE (http://www.foamexpress1.com/Acoustic_Sound.php) - 1" Thick Wedge Acoustic Foam which sells for $6 (24"x48" piece).

Here are the coeficeints:

http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/wedgefoam.JPG

Mark P

08-31-06, 04:13 PM

Hey Mark,

Is it this stuff here ? -> http://www.sutherlandfelt.com/needle.htm

Yes that is it, not only major damping but standing waves.

Mark P

08-31-06, 04:15 PM

I just called them and for 3/8" F15-N Needle Punched Felt (72" wide), it runs $19.31/linear yard + shipping. $50 minimum order. Ask about pressed, if its alot more money than thats what you want and I believe it is, it is much more effcient in its effect.

Just checked and its pressed felt that is what you want to check on.

Mark P

08-31-06, 04:27 PM

When you're considering the stuffing for the boxes, talk to Rick and see what volume, type of fill, and % of fill he used while he was tuning the xovers.

I will agree that the felt is great stuff - at least the stuff I used to use (long ago) when I was building my own speakers. Another little trick is to use Mortite. Get a pot (old one that you can throw away) and melt the Mortite. Pour it into the cabinet and 'swish it around'. Does a great job of damping the cabinets.

You can also potentially use the (forget the name now - senior moment) self stick damping sheets that they use on car bodies. This is more effective for the midrange enclosure than the bass cabinet.

BryanAnother reason building your own speakers is such a clear winner and external crossovers are a nice touch, from what I remember the nice thing about felt is it has no effect on internal volumes ( double check this at audiogon or somewhere, actually ask ThomasW or someone over at HTGuide, I have never adjusted volumes)

If Swithey does external crossovers he can play around with the sound till the cows come home, that or, mess with parabolic EQing but he has a chance now to build something far beyond what he can purchase for much, much more.

The felt thing was always a must ( in the old days , and now in my case) unless you want to build your cabinets out of 1" marble.

The other must in my opinion is bulding them out of baltic birch except the baffle, this mixed with felt will give you less than the same weight as all MDF except better performance. May be different these days.

swithey

08-31-06, 04:43 PM

Another reason building your own speakers is such a clear winner and external crossovers are a nice touch, from what I remember the nice thing about felt is it has no effect on internal volumes ( double check this at audiogon or somewhere, actually ask ThomasW or someone over at HTGuide, I have never adjusted volumes)

If Swithey does external crossovers he can play around with the sound till the cows come home, that or, mess with parabolic EQing but he has a chance now to build something far beyond what he can purchase for much, much more.

The felt thing was always a must ( in the old days , and now in my case) unless you want to build your cabinets out of 1" marble.

The other must in my opinion is bulding them out of baltic birch except the baffle, this mixed with felt will give you less than the same weight as all MDF except better performance. May be different these days.
Thanks Mark. I never thought about the volume reduction with the 1" thick stuff.

On the birch, since the sides will be curved, those will be bendy-ply or multiple layers of luan/masonite (I still need to see if this can be done -- I've been told it is difficult without adding relief cuts on the back). However, I could easily make the back, top, bottom and all the bracing out of birch ply. I'll take that under consideration.

swithey

08-31-06, 05:27 PM

Ask about pressed, if its alot more money than thats what you want and I believe it is, it is much more effcient in its effect.

Just checked and its pressed felt that is what you want to check on.
Pressed Flet F-1 3/8" is 60" wide, and runs $118.80 per yard for less than 10 yards, and $107.05 for more than 10 yards. I think I'll get a few yards of this :eek:

Mark P

08-31-06, 05:55 PM

Thats the stuff! Except I think you want F3 ( Grayish blue in color). I remember I paid quite a bit for a small roll. To make a speaker completely dead is not a cheap task and I cant think of anything else that will.

The reason I remember for using pressed instead of needled was the threads are vertical and sewed as well as synthetic on the needled. Pressed is horizontal and 100 % wool which is what makes the stuff perform.

A couple yards of this stuff will be well worth the price in performance. Cover any edges that the opposite side is outside the speaker ( Front, back, sides, top and bottom) dont worry about covering bracing , if you have a sealed mid tweet or tweeter compartment cover the entire INSIDE of this box.

Happy speaker building!

Mark P

08-31-06, 06:18 PM

Thanks Mark. I never thought about the volume reduction with the 1" thick stuff.

On the birch, since the sides will be curved, those will be bendy-ply or multiple layers of luan/masonite (I still need to see if this can be done -- I've been told it is difficult without adding relief cuts on the back). However, I could easily make the back, top, bottom and all the bracing out of birch ply. I'll take that under consideration. Theres different types of 13 ply baltic birch too, get the good stuff.

One thing to consider is that Baltic Birch supposedly ( and does) sound different than MDF. Many argue what the difference is but some say it has a live sound that MDF does not have because of its multiple plys running in different directions create a different flex than MDF. Some people avoid it saying it rings causing the lively sound but when introducing the wool felt, too me, it seems to make the soundstaging of a DIY speaker multiply in worthiness. I know thats not a word but when you hear them you know your time spent was worth it.

When youre done, take your unfinished speakers to any highend shop and see if they will audition their 20K a pair speakers up against them. My bet is you wont find any takers.

bpape

09-01-06, 12:18 PM

swithey

09-02-06, 01:17 PM

Thats the stuff! Except I think you want F3 ( Grayish blue in color). I remember I paid quite a bit for a small roll. To make a speaker completely dead is not a cheap task and I cant think of anything else that will.

Received pricing on the F3:

F-3 3/8" is $69.10 for less than 10 yards, $62.79 for more than 10 yards.

About 1/2 the price of F-1 but still expensive. I figured I need 2 yards to do the the front LCRs.

swithey

09-02-06, 01:44 PM

Mortite is rope caulk - about the consistency of Pla-Doh. It's used on windows a lot but it isn't glazing compound. And yes, you need an old pot or go buy a cheap one to use and pitch. But hey, it works well for damping and is seriously cheap.

You can also check this out - http://www.gr-research.com/components/blackhole_5.htm. Rick may be familiar with that product too.

Bryan
I found this thread (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=80863) on options for dampening the inside of speakers. Mortite was mentioned but they stated that it loses it's sticking power over time (because it gets hard). One thing I found interesting is the use of oil based clay available of craft stores for cheap OR a rubber material (similar to dynamat) with self-sticking backs available at Sherwin Williams.

Mark P

09-02-06, 02:15 PM

I love it when a group tries to build a better mousetrap, makes for some great reading. Next set I build I would like to test that blackhole stuff BPape linked too ( looks interesting) but I thought felt was expensive :eek: It may be worth every penny.

It will be hard to sway from felt though since it has about 40 years of proven results.

If you go the felt way, it almost stays inplace by itself but I use some spray adhesive on both surfaces just in case. The stuff is harder to cut straight than it first appears, buy extra blades because they dull fast and you will start cutting crooked. The stuff is heavy duty

swithey

09-04-06, 12:03 AM

swithey

09-04-06, 12:20 AM

Update...

I ordered my (4) RL-p15 D4 15" Woofers from Mike over at SoundSplinter (http://www.soundsplinter.com/rlp15_premium_series_15_inch_DIY_subwoofer_information.html) today.

http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/RLp15-backside.jpg http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/RLp15-top.jpg
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/RLp15-profile.jpg http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/rlp15-measurements.jpg

This will be for my Infinite Baffle Sub setup which will look something like this. I should be starting on this once I get my main speakers built :)
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-Pic.jpg

More soon!

bpape

09-04-06, 10:59 AM

VorlonFog

09-04-06, 11:17 AM

<TimTaylorGrunt> Arrr Arrr Arrr </TimTaylorGrunt>
ROFLMAO!

Mark P

09-04-06, 12:36 PM

Hopefully you have undrstanding neighbors, or no neighbors at all. Also if you have lap siding, be sure to check it frequently near any eve vents for slapping or loosening. FWIW I am serious

YldeSyde

09-04-06, 12:54 PM

Haha, I think he just needs to put a big sign in the yard for his neighbors to see, "If the house is Rockin', don't come knockin' " Of course, it would be more neighborly to say, "come in and join us" lolol.

ebr

09-05-06, 09:14 AM

Mark P

09-05-06, 11:04 AM

swithey

09-05-06, 11:23 AM

Hopefully you have undrstanding neighbors, or no neighbors at all. Also if you have lap siding, be sure to check it frequently near any eve vents for slapping or loosening. FWIW I am serious
Mark,

Did you do 18's in your IB setup? How may drivers did you install and how many cu/ft is in your room? Where do the drivers enter your room (ceiling, back wall, etc.)?

swithey

09-05-06, 11:35 AM

Steve - that IB setup should be schweet. Bryan tried to talk me into one of those but I had enough stuff to build.

I love the way my SVS turned out, but I do wonder just what might have been if I'd gone with the IB. I suppose I could always add it if I really wanted to because I do have one wall that shares with a portion of the unfinished basement...
Yea -- Bryan likes to add more work for us ;) I remember when we were first started talking about the HT (Oct '05), I told him what I wanted to do. He came back and said that was great but why not just paint the walls, put up some fabric covered panels and call it a day. Once I told him about the WAF influence, he agreed and everything else is history.

I'm getting a bit scared that my neighbors might call the police if I crank it too much. I was talking with David/Yldesyde last night and I figured what I'm really gaining with (4) drivers is a lot of air movement -- even if I don't crank the SPLs. I want to "feel" it on my chest (especially the really LOW effects) and I think this is one of the best ways to accomplish this task. Can you tell I'm trying to sell myself on this :rolleyes:

I'll be taking reservations and offering diapers for anyone that wants to hear it in person :D :p

Mark P

09-05-06, 02:34 PM

Mark,

Did you do 18's in your IB setup? How may drivers did you install and how many cu/ft is in your room? Where do the drivers enter your room (ceiling, back wall, etc.)?
4- 15' ers is plenty and what I am using, the room is 19 x 14 x 40 minus 5 x 5 x 40 for the 45 degree sides, the balcony adds yet about 4 x 4 x 19 so when I am not too lazy I will figure up cubic because theres a small entryway as well 5 x 5 x 9. Now figure in stages and risers, barrel diffusers

Drivers are in the attic where they can vent to the outside, they enter centered in room about 6 foot from the screen firing onto a stage 12' below . the Box is 20"x 20"x 20". I have had people being nervous to sit in the room including myself and have heard " Is it safe to be in here?" several times. Most of the time the clutching of the arm rests mellow out after 2-3 movies. King Kong and V for Vendetta Demos are fun for first timers experiencing 10 hz ( U-571 is really fun but I am so tired of that demo)

The only trouble is that I have the best bass trapping on the planet, four large windows but theres also eve vents scattered about right outside the windows.
4- 15s in your room should cause structural damage and make you quite happy.

Theres Drywall dust in the garage below after every showing ( missing mud off screws and such) very fun

swithey

09-05-06, 03:20 PM

miltimj

09-05-06, 03:45 PM

YldeSyde

09-05-06, 04:16 PM

swithey

09-05-06, 04:29 PM

Speaking of structural damage, there will be a lot of movement of that wall to the point of literally shaking, most likely. You may want to consider a manifold that remains structurally neutral during while all are firing. It should still work to do the straight array, and was what I was planning, but others have mentioned this drawback before as well.

It's the setup I was planning previously (array or manifold), but now will probably do two large sonosubs since I don't expect to have the space for IB. I'll wait until we build a house from scratch I think.

I'm enjoying the DIY speaker discussion!
Tim,

I have not seen you around in some time. Is the heat over there finally getting to ya? :D

Are you talking about a physical separation of the woofers and baffle from the wall? They would kind of float in the wall opening? Seems like that would cause some pressure issues and caused reduced performance? Can you expand on this concept?

swithey

09-05-06, 04:33 PM

lol, you guys are kiling me. You are talking about IB subs like you are about to have sex for the first time with the woman of your dreams. Well, perhaps you are since Mr. Poindexter said one woman enjoyed the bass experience (I won't repeat his exact word). I know that in addition to being Techies and HT junkies, we all tend to be bass fanatics to varying degrees. It just makes me giggle to hear you guys talk ing about it with such childhood giddiness. Then again, isn't that the reason we are all doing these projects?

Keep up the great work Steve, I can see the home stretch getting closer.
You are so right. It's all about the power and the control you have over "some" women :rolleyes: LOL!

Yes, we're getting there. Thanks again for your help yesterday until nearly midnight! I'll be posting some pics later this week once I get the rest of the crown and base molding installed. It just looks too unfinished right now for a pic.

Mark P

09-05-06, 06:47 PM

Tim,

I have not seen you around in some time. Is the heat over there finally getting to ya? :D

Are you talking about a physical separation of the woofers and baffle from the wall? They would kind of float in the wall opening? Seems like that would cause some pressure issues and caused reduced performance? Can you expand on this concept?Hes talking about the force 4 woofers will have on the wall in a line array without additional bracing. Most folks go with a manifold type and fill the manifold with the drivers ( much easier to build and stronger because it can be braced securely much easier) as well as 1 hole entering the room. I would personally do a manifold and place the drivers straight across from each other, the toughest ( not tough but you can pop your amp pretty quick) thing is wiring them correctly, when it comes to this show us how you were told to wire them, thats a whole other discussion

Mark P

09-05-06, 06:58 PM

Thanks Mark. Now I'm really nervous (in a good way) about putting (4) 15s in my room.

I do plan to line the attic roof rafters with R19 to help absorb some of the rear sound wave and keep as much as possible from spilling into the rest of the house attic. This attic is a small pocket above the 3rd car garage area (roughly 19x8x6.5 with a slop down to 1') and is relatively sealed off from the rest of the house. I also have vents in the eves that will help vent the sound out too.

Amps -- how much power are you pushing at your woofers? I was planning on each pair of 15's to have 1100watts (but could do 800watts and save a few $$). I do not see these amps turned much above 2-3 unless I'm showing off :D You will probably be nervous for awhile after you experience the sensation, the R19 wont do squat, I have oodles of it 12" thick in the rafters as well as across the collar ties. I am using a 1200 watt plate amp and thats too much, remember your drivers are free floating with 0 resistance as compared to a sealed or ported commercial subwoofer, it takes very little power to drive them and I have the gain at 0 at the receiver and the gain about 3/4 up on the plate amp, if I go higher there will be structual damage to be certain. In your attic, I hope you have plenty of roof and eave venting, I doubt you neighbors do but I think you do.

Mark P

09-05-06, 07:02 PM

lol, you guys are kiling me. You are talking about IB subs like you are about to have sex for the first time with the woman of your dreams. Well, perhaps you are since Mr. Poindexter said one woman enjoyed the bass experience (I won't repeat his exact word). Actually the orgasm was caused by a D-Box which is a motion simulator but still............

miltimj

09-06-06, 01:43 AM

Tim,

I have not seen you around in some time. Is the heat over there finally getting to ya? :D

Are you talking about a physical separation of the woofers and baffle from the wall? They would kind of float in the wall opening? Seems like that would cause some pressure issues and caused reduced performance? Can you expand on this concept?
Well, I've taken on another significant job simultaneous with my current one. Needless to say, I could work 24/7 now and not get everything done until I leave. Speaking of leave.. that's coming up in a couple of weeks (mid-tour)!

Mark is right - you can build a manifold on the back side with one opening. See the list of examples at the Cult site:

http://home.comcast.net/~infinitelybaffled/page2IB-Gallery.html

Also check their FAQ which answers quite a few questions. The manifold is actually the most popular option.

swithey

09-06-06, 03:44 PM

Just placed my order with Parts Express for my subwoofer amp and EQ. The EQ is needed to flatten out the sub response across the subs frequency range. It will help make all the output levels as uniform/even/flat as possible at the listening/seated position.

BEHRINGER EP2500 EUROPOWER POWER AMP 2 x 1200W (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=248-747&CFID=3915710&CFTOKEN=15753659)
http://www.partsexpress.com/imageslarge/248-747L.jpg

BEHRINGER DSP1124P FEEDBACK DESTROYER PRO w/PARAMETRIC EQ (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=248-656&CFID=3915710&CFTOKEN=15753659)
http://www.partsexpress.com/imageslarge/248-656L.jpg

FYI: PE has free shipping going on right now on most of their items over $99.

Also, my (4) 15" woofs shipped out yesterday and should be here on Friday!

swithey

09-06-06, 04:07 PM

Hes talking about the force 4 woofers will have on the wall in a line array without additional bracing. Most folks go with a manifold type and fill the manifold with the drivers ( much easier to build and stronger because it can be braced securely much easier) as well as 1 hole entering the room. I would personally do a manifold and place the drivers straight across from each Mark is right - you can build a manifold on the back side with one opening. See the list of examples at the Cult site:

http://home.comcast.net/~infinitely...IB-Gallery.html

Also check their FAQ which answers quite a few questions. The manifold is actually the most popular option.
Okay -- Mark and Tim, I follow you now. I must have been sleeping because I knew the answer to that but just missed it :rolleyes: I've been to that IB site many times.

I was thinking of a design like this one just because it would use less space in the attic. I do plan to put some boxes in the attic space for storage and need room to walk around back there. The ceiling will only be 6' 6" at the peek and it drops to 1' in the rear. I was planning to put 3/4 ply + 3/4" MDF along for the baffle on the "room side" and have the drivers partially in the 2x4 wall so they would not stick out as much into the attic space. It would be reenforced with some angled 2x4 bracing attached to the floor joists and ceiling rafters.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-Pic.jpg

NOW.. if we go with the manifold design, I believe I have (2) options. Which design do you like best?

One box with all (4) drivers. (3) on the sides and (1) on top
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/ib1.jpg

<OR>

Two boxes with (2) drivers per box. (1) driver on each side.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/ib2.jpg

Oh and Tim -- don't hurt yourself working too hard. Remember, it's a government job. The work will be there tomorrow no matter how hard you work -- so take it easy :D

ebr

09-06-06, 04:29 PM

Actually IBs are easy to build, a square box with four holes and a hole in the room. Not sure how firing it into a basement would work since they are supposed to fire outside, hense infinite. If the theater is in the basement and the IB is in the basement, how does this work? Even if the theater is upstairs the basement would have the same spl as the theater, I guess a completely isolated, floating room would work.

Most "infinite" baffle setups I've seen have only been infinite in theory. They, as you said, are usually created out of an attic area which does have venting to the outside but also significant boundaries that, in effect, create a very large vented enclosure. I've always thought that when the enclosure is that large the resonate frequency is therefore so low so as to make it negligible - hence a theoretically infinite baffle.

My unfinished basement area, with a volume of about 11,000 cu ft I would think would serve the same purpose - but maybe not since it does not have significant venting to the outside. I'm not sure as I haven't really done much research on this.

In any case, my dual driver SVS does a fine job, I'm just always wondering how things can be improved even more.

swithey

09-06-06, 04:35 PM

In any case, my dual driver SVS does a fine job, I'm just always wondering how things can be improved even more.

I'll let you know pretty soon. I think the biggest difference is more DB at the lower frequencies.

Mark P

09-06-06, 07:04 PM

NOW.. if we go with the manifold design, I believe I have (2) options. Which design do you like best?

One box with all (4) drivers. (3) on the sides and (1) on top
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/ib1.jpg

This is how mine is with 4 all the way around, Mine is alot shorter and fits in the ceilings 24" joist spacing snugly ( this is why I have 15" drivers for plenty of working room ) you cant do 3 on the sides and one on top, they need to be directly across from each other. You only need 1 plate amp or 1 amp, 1200 watts is more than you will ever need, all the drivers hook up to 1 amp, when your ready I will show you how to wire it, not sure why you need all that fancy stuff when plate amps come with dual crossovers, dual phase, gain and EQing already built in, you can even order with a low pass filter free I think http://www.adireaudio.com/Home/ADASubAmps.htm the ADA 1200 is what I have and its too much power in all reality

You will run 1- 8 or 10 guage speaker wire to the manifold from this.

Heres looking up into mine before it was covered with fabric

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y280/GoBigRed/P9150443.jpg

rsberg34

09-07-06, 09:04 AM

SVonhof

09-07-06, 09:15 AM

BEHRINGER EP2500 EUROPOWER POWER AMP 2 x 1200W (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=248-747&CFID=3915710&CFTOKEN=15753659)
http://www.partsexpress.com/imageslarge/248-747L.jpg

Steve, have you talked to anyone about the fan noise levels on this amp? I am taking my two Titanic kit subs and building a single box for both and weighing my amp options. I don't really want to use two plate amps (I already have them) since I need to get them dialed in since I don't want one driving more than the other, so I am looking at amps I can bridge. This amp at 8ohms, bridged is rated at 900 watts which would be perfect, but I just got rid of my noisy Sony 10HT projector and replaced it with the really low noise HS51A projector and don't want to go out and get an amp that will push the noise level back up. Since I have all my equipment in the rack under my screen and won't be changing that anytime soon, I need to consider this as a possible issue.
http://www.vonhofs.com/theater/Theater_front_pano_7-24-06.jpg

ebr

09-07-06, 09:39 AM

That design is very interresting but correct me if I am wrong....doesnt IB require teh open air space and venting ability of an attic? I may have missed it somewhere but something like this wouldnt help/work properly with a typical basement build would it?

Robert

I think it would if you have a large enough adjacent basement area. My reasoning is that most attics have enough solid boundaries to them that they are really just large (irregular) boxes themselves.

The cult site says you need a space 4-10 times the Vas (which, I think but I'm just guessing, is some sort of volume displacement measure) of the drivers to equal a basically "infinite" baffle.

ebr

09-07-06, 09:41 AM

Mark P

09-07-06, 09:51 AM

I am taking my two Titanic kit subs and building a single box for both and weighing my amp options. I don't really want to use two plate amps (I already have them) since I need to get them dialed in since I don't want one driving more than the other, so I am looking at amps I can bridge. This amp at 8ohms, bridged is rated at 900 watts which would be perfect,

http://www.adireaudio.com/Home/ADASubAmps.htm, I run 4 -15" subs off this one 1200 watt amp, it has everything you need and want. Then again this is in an IB setup where it takes little power to drive. 2 in a box would be cake for this amp

ebr

09-07-06, 09:53 AM

Mark - what does that amp cost? Their site gives me an error when I try to go to the store page...

(sorry for the hijack, steve)

Mark P

09-07-06, 09:58 AM

Try

http://www.adireaudio.com/Home/DealerList.htm#NORTH%20AMERICA and call Kyle in Utah or Kevin @ DIYCable.com in Washington. If I remember mine was $500 a year ago. Rock solid amp, I had two of them but sent one back when I went with 1 IB sub instead of two. I should have kept it if they cant be found anymore.

Did you read the specs on it? Class "D" Mmmm

Mark P

09-07-06, 10:04 AM

swithey

09-07-06, 10:12 AM

You only need 1 plate amp or 1 amp, 1200 watts is more than you will ever need, all the drivers hook up to 1 amp, when your ready I will show you how to wire it, not sure why you need all that fancy stuff when plate amps come with dual crossovers, dual phase, gain and EQing already built in, you can even order with a low pass filter free I think http://www.adireaudio.com/Home/ADASubAmps.htm the ADA 1200 is what I have and its too much power in all reality

You will run 1- 8 or 10 guage speaker wire to the manifold from this.

Mark,

I was planning to run a 1200watt channel for each pair of woofers. Are you saying I should use just (1) 1200watt channel for all (4) or should I bridge to use both channels? I've heard bridging causes more distortion but not sure how important that is in this scenario. If I do go single-channel, I would have PLENTY of power to run shakers in the future. However, I do not think I will need them now :rolleyes:

BTW -- that's 1200watts x 2 at 2ohm, 750watts at 4ohm and 500watts at 8ohm. My woofers are rated at 4ohm so it will either be 750 or 500 depending on how they are wired.

As far as the plate amp you mentioned, it is backordered (and my PE order shipped out yesterday) :( It does have some nice featured (which are good) but I really wanted something that was rack-mountable. I do not think the Texas heat and that amp would do well in the attic. I could somehow mount it in a box and put it in my wiring closet. That would be a BIG box but something to consider. Your amp is $600 + shipping and I paid $400 for the other stuff.

Mark P

09-07-06, 10:22 AM

Mark,

I was planning to run a 1200watt channel for each pair of woofers. Are you saying I should use just (1) 1200watt channel for all (4) or should I bridge to use both channels? I've heard bridging causes more distortion but not sure how important that is in this scenario. If I do go single-channel, I would have PLENTY of power to run shakers in the future. However, I do not think I will need them now :rolleyes:

BTW -- that's 1200watts x 2 at 2ohm, 750watts at 4ohm and 500watts at 8ohm. My woofers are rated at 4ohm so it will either be 750 or 500 depending on how they are wired.

As far as the plate amp you mentioned, it is backordered (and my PE order shipped out yesterday) :( It does have some nice featured (which are good) but I really wanted something that was rack-mountable. I do not think the Texas heat and that amp would do well in the attic. I could somehow mount it in a box and put it in my wiring closet. That would be a BIG box but something to consider. Your amp is $600 + shipping and I paid $400 for the other stuff.
Its a digital amp it has no heat, mine was in the attic where temps climb to 140, Its now mounted in the equiptment room with everything else, mounted in the wall. The thing barely gets warm in the heat of battle. Yes I am saying 1200 watts will power you 4 - 15" 4 ohm. Youre going IB, it takes even less than 1200w to power that setup. Free floating subs, no resistance infact you could over drive those drivers if your not careful down in the 10 hz range

I have a 60' speaker wire going to the manifold from the amp I had a detailed diagram on the wiring of the 4 drivers but I lost it ( I can crawl back there and see how its hooked up when my 4 new drivers show up, I have been running prototypes for a year now) , the amp is pretty small but weighs like 30lbs

Backordered eh? I knew I should have held onto that extra amp

swithey

09-07-06, 10:24 AM

Scott/Steve - noise on those pro amps is an issue. I just replaced one of my Lexicon amps with two QSC RMX-1450s. I love them but they are too loud to be in my rack. Luckily, I was able to remote locate them in an adjacent storage space.
Luckily for me, they will be located in the wiring closet behind a solid door with weather stripping. AS long as it does not sound like a jet, I'm fine. I have heard that they are on the loud side. If you need quiet, the "fanless" Crown amps are the way to go but price is about 3-4x the Behringer. I also found a post that someone "modded" (http://www.cwitt.com/epfanmodification/index.html) one of these amps to lower the fan speed to reduce noise.

swithey

09-07-06, 10:26 AM

(sorry for the hijack, steve)
No problem. We're all here to learn (including myself).

SVonhof

09-07-06, 10:32 AM

Mark, the ADA1200 is ~$600, that is too much for my blood right now after just replacing my projector and needing to build a new table after making this new sub (since I will be removing the sub from between the back love-seats). I like the price on the Behringer's better, but just don't think I can handle the fan. I had somebody suggest one of the Buttkicker amps instead, but I don't know how they handle music (movie soundtracks) since I have not seen any reviews for them driving speakers yet.
http://www.thebuttkicker.com/buttkicker%20amplifier_home.html
I also don't know what the 8ohm rating is (guessing about 650-700 watts) since my drivers are 4 ohms and 2100 watts from the Buttkicker amp at 2 ohms is too much... Anyone know of a single channel or two channel (bridgable) 2 ohm rated amp that will put out around 900 watts?

Steve, is this really a hijack of a thread? What we are talking about concerns you too...

BTW, I don't know a whole lot about IB subs, but I am guessing that a 11,000 cu ft basement would have enough space to vent since there are going to be little leaks all over besides the actual size of the room. Eric, I don't remember exactly what VAS stands for, I don't have my "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" with me here at work.

Mark P

09-07-06, 10:40 AM

Your amp is $600 + shipping and I paid $400 for the other stuff. A digital amp with dual EQing, dual Crossovers, dual phase and twin ins and outs and no jet engine fan is pretty cheap at 600 clams, too bad it looks like they are gone. ( backordered, which considering who built them, they are gone)

swithey

09-07-06, 10:42 AM

Steve, is this really a hijack of a thread? What we are talking about concerns you too...
Absolutely!! :)

BTW, I don't know a whole lot about IB subs, but I am guessing that a 11,000 cu ft basement would have enough space to vent since there are going to be little leaks all over besides the actual size of the room. Eric, I don't remember exactly what VAS stands for, I don't have my "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" with me here at work.
Found this on a website:
"Vas is the volume of air that has the same compliance as the speaker's suspension. Stiff speakers have lower Vas and tend to use small enclosures. Speakers with loose suspension have a higher Vas and use larger enclosures. "

swithey

09-07-06, 11:06 AM

I think it would if you have a large enough adjacent basement area. My reasoning is that most attics have enough solid boundaries to them that they are really just large (irregular) boxes themselves.

The cult site says you need a space 4-10 times the Vas (which, I think but I'm just guessing, is some sort of volume displacement measure) of the drivers to equal a basically "infinite" baffle.
Just to give you my scenario:

SoundSplinter RL-p 15: (http://www.soundsplinter.com/rlp15_premium_series_15_inch_DIY_subwoofer_information.html) VAS = 148.8L (5.25 cu/ft)
(5.25 x 4 drivers) x 10x VAS = 210 cu/ft

My attic space is 6' tall x 8' deep x 19' long (but drops to <1' in the back).
((6 x 8)/2) x 19 = 456 cu/ft + the vents the outside

Sound like it will work out really well (if I did my calcs right) :D

SVonhof

09-07-06, 11:08 AM

Steve, the way I see it, you don't have a lot of options for wiring your drivers. Here they are:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/SVonhof/wiring_3.jpg = probably around 250 watts total (75 per woofer)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/SVonhof/wiring_2.jpg = killing your amp

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/SVonhof/wiring_1.jpg = 750 watts

The last image also shows that you can do two rows that are 8 ohms each, for 2 channel operation, allowing you to use both channels of the amp, but that's 500 watts, 250 for each in that config, which Mark is saying may be too much.

miltimj

09-07-06, 11:11 AM

An attic/outside or even insanely large space isn't required for IB. If you want to be literal, then it must be the case since that is the "infinite" part of it. But for all intents and purposes, the 4-10 times Vas is "enough" to get you to the 99% solution as far as volume is concerned. There are people successfully using a dual driver IB setup with the backwave contained in a converted bedroom closet. 200 cubic feet is enough.

The question is how much performance do you ever expect to use. The more drivers you add, the less distortion at higher levels because each driver is more effortlessly reproducing the sound. With more drivers, you need more space behind the drivers.

Oh, and Steve, I recommend using the dual manifold option, and they can even be close to each other, though I would recommend putting a sub in the listening position and testing where the best places along the wall are to put them. Put one of the manifolds at a peak, and the other at a null, and equalize from there (essentially stereo), but then you'd need to use both of your amplifier channels (big deal.. you'll have plenty of headroom).

miltimj

09-07-06, 11:15 AM

The last image also shows that you can do two rows that are 8 ohms each, for 2 channel operation, allowing you to use both channels of the amp, but that's 500 watts, 250 for each in that config, which Mark is saying may be too much.
As long as he's careful, he won't have "too much". More than he needs, but the amp is a good value and will serve the purpose fine. In retrospect, he could've gotten the 1500 and saved some cash.

Anyway, Steve, wire two pair in series, and hook each up to a separate channel. If you end up using the other channel for shakers, you can wire a parallel/series combo for 4 ohms. I like the stereo channel option based on my previous post of EQing separately.

swithey

09-07-06, 02:39 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/SVonhof/wiring_1.jpg = 750 watts

The last image also shows that you can do two rows that are 8 ohms each, for 2 channel operation, allowing you to use both channels of the amp, but that's 500 watts, 250 for each in that config, which Mark is saying may be too much.
The woofers are rated at 600-700watts (4ohm). Will I ever have it that loud -- I don't think so - but it is nice to know I have the extra headroom.

swithey

09-07-06, 03:06 PM

As long as he's careful, he won't have "too much". More than he needs, but the amp is a good value and will serve the purpose fine. In retrospect, he could've gotten the 1500 and saved some cash.

Anyway, Steve, wire two pair in series, and hook each up to a separate channel. If you end up using the other channel for shakers, you can wire a parallel/series combo for 4 ohms. I like the stereo channel option based on my previous post of EQing separately.
When I brought this up over at HTGuide.com, they mentioned it was better to have the amp barely on vs. having it cranked 80%. Plus for peeks during movies, I heard you want that headroom or things may get clipped and/or you might overload the amp (forcing it to shutoff).

I like the idea of using both channels and having EQ power over both -- good idea. Mark -- your thoughts on this too??? BPape/Bryan -- you've been very quiet. Any input to add from your end (I know your a bass nut so you MUST have something to add :D )?

Putting a sub in the listening position and looking for peeks and nulls is a good idea. All I have to use is an old 8" Cambridge Soundworks 75watt sub. I think that will be slightly underpowered for the room and not sure it will do well for measurements. I may just have to wing it and EQ to fix issues.

ebr

09-07-06, 03:33 PM

Gosh darn you guys for making me consider cutting a big hole in my brand new theater room... ;).

SVonhof

09-07-06, 04:15 PM

Gosh darn you guys for making me consider cutting a big hole in my brand new theater room... ;).

Talking from experience about cutting holes in walls, make sure your wife is not home when you are gonna do it, cause she will probably try to stop you! :D

Mark P

09-07-06, 09:03 PM

When I brought this up over at HTGuide.com, they mentioned it was better to have the amp barely on vs. having it cranked 80%. Plus for peeks during movies, I heard you want that headroom or things may get clipped and/or you might overload the amp (forcing it to shutoff).

I like the idea of using both channels and having EQ power over both -- good idea. Mark -- your thoughts on this too??? BPape/Bryan -- you've been very quiet. Any input to add from your end (I know your a bass nut so you MUST have something to add :D )?

Putting a sub in the listening position and looking for peeks and nulls is a good idea. All I have to use is an old 8" Cambridge Soundworks 75watt sub. I think that will be slightly underpowered for the room and not sure it will do well for measurements. I may just have to wing it and EQ to fix issues.My idea on this is that the room I am building can not be modeled by anyone on the planet, therefore nulls will only be able to be addressed after the room is COMPLETE, carrying a sealed or ported sub around the room is meaningless because of the shape of the room and I cant hold a 100 lb sub 14' in the air and move it around in a room that doesnt have seating, carpet, treatments, D-Boxes ( effecting the riser that is now packed tight) Playpits, hushbox packed, HVAC completed perfectly, foam and fabric, SMX curved AT screen,

The nice thing about an IB is that it can be moved with the greatest of ease or better yet another added

My thought is that you wont use 700 watts of any amp to drive your IB, theres misconceptons of power needed for an IB, If an amp is properly designed you wont blow it anyway. Be careful of hype, HT is stuffed full of it from my experience talking with folks in the know.

swithey

09-07-06, 09:51 PM

Be careful of hype, HT is stuffed full of it from my experience talking with folks in the know.
I hear some snake-oil coming to the surface ;) Damn, I could have save a few $$ and bought the less expensive amp. Oh well, now I have a channel for some shakers if I ever decide to "cut up" my chairs (wife will NOT be there when I do that!)

ebr

09-08-06, 08:27 AM

Talking from experience about cutting holes in walls, make sure your wife is not home when you are gonna do it, cause she will probably try to stop you! :D

Oh, its gonna hurt me a whole lot more than her... ;)

At this point, I can't really think about doing it. I need to figure out if I can somehow do a test of an IB without cutting a hole...

jikkjack

09-08-06, 09:29 AM

The woofers are rated at 600-700watts (4ohm). Will I ever have it that loud -- I don't think so - but it is nice to know I have the extra headroom.

And on the 3rd day of Home Theater - Swithey created Thunder - and it was good. ;)

Mark P

09-08-06, 10:18 AM

Toxarch

09-08-06, 12:14 PM

This thread has the coolest stuff being used. Cool looking DIY speakers and IB subs. I love it.

Just remember that the difference between 1000 watts and 500 watts through a speaker is only 3 dB. Course +3dB means a 40% increase in SPL. You are better off having a large amp turned down with extra head room than using a small amp that is cranked up all the time.

SVonhof

09-08-06, 01:30 PM

Swithey,
you were probably wondering why the heck I mentioned the SmX screen, as of now I have a Stewart Studiotek non perf and you should see this thing when all heck breaks loose in a LFE heavy scene. Its like it becomes another woofer. Dont put it directly over the seating either ( I am sure you knew that, but I was contemplating trying it and glad I did'nt

I did notice that Mark(I am obviously not Swithey), but didn't think a whole lot about it. I have shown people your theater, Art's, Ruben's, EBR's and Mr. Poindexter's (all different but very cool) and people always ask about puting the woofers behind the screens and if the screens move. I have told them that as far as I know, the higher frequencies don't make a visible movement, but the lower notes could do it based on the amount of air moving and where things are in relation to drivers and ports. Make sure you post on here or your own thread if the screen stops moving when you get weaved (SMX).

swithey

09-11-06, 12:55 AM

Update...

Thanks again David for you help on Friday! It really helped things get done a lot faster.

Wet Bar
----------
Applied the 2nd layer of drywall this weekend. All that is left is to do the ceiling. I'm waiting for my lights to arrive.

The Green Glue comes in some rather large tubes. From the pics on the website, it looks like normal "caulk" size tubes. This pics shows you the size difference between the quart size GG and normal caulk (both the gun and the tube).
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Green Glue Compare.jpg

Here is the application of GG on a 4x8 sheet pf drywall. I applied (2) tubes per sheet.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/GG1.jpg http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/GG2.jpg
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/GG3.jpg http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/GG4.jpg
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/GG5.jpg

Completed and ready to attach the drywall to the wall. Oh and this stuff is really sticky. Soap does NOT get it off.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/GG6.jpg

Trim and Base Molding
----------------------------
I have the trim and base molding about 80% installed. I cannot do any more until I get the texturing done over the bar entrance, finish up the screen wall and build the rear cabinet. You never know how dusty it is in a room until you take pics. I'll be glad when we get the drywalling completed.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Trim-Base Installed1.jpg

DIY Speakers
-----------------
All the wood for the side and rear surrounds is cut. I figured I'd start with the easy ones 1st to get my skills up to speed. So far, its really easy. I am waiting for the drivers so I can cut the opening for the speakers with precision. They should be here by the end of the week or early next.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Speakers-SurroundsCut.JPG

I should be starting on the LCRs this week as well -- which will be a bit more challenging because of the curved sides. Here is the curved brace I will be using as the template for the speaker. Mike over at HTGuide made this for me. Thanks Mike. It's about 14" long x 10" wide.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Speakers-LCRBrace.JPG

rsberg34

09-11-06, 08:24 AM

Steve your room really looks great and I will certainly be watching those speakers come to life...looks good so far.

Robert

cburbs

09-11-06, 09:46 AM

Great stuff - the room is coming along nicely and can't wait to see the speakers and subs....

accts4mjs

09-11-06, 11:53 AM

Looks sweet Steve. Those columns are awesome with the aluminum inlay. The speakers will be cool to see :)

Mike

chinadog

09-11-06, 09:41 PM

Man, you've got a lot of hours into this. It shows. All this talk on sub building, wood work, star ceiling, etc. Did you figure out the projector part of it yet? LGBTW (looks great by the way).

Bud

garykagan

09-11-06, 10:39 PM

How's your hand after applying the GG? I went for the power gun for the 45 sheets I had to cover. Hope you can still hold a beer.

Looking great!

Gary

swithey

09-12-06, 01:29 AM

Mini Update...

Today was "clean up" day. My garage and HT room were so bad I just could not stand it any more. I took tonight and cleaned up both and am relieved it is done. Now, I can get back to work.

Drywaller is coming out tomorrow to give me an estimate on texturing the wet bar area. Boring!!! :D

Want something exciting?? -- well, maybe exciting to me :rolleyes: My (4) SoundSplinter 15" woofers came in on Friday and I brought them home today. These things are HUGE and weigh easily 30lbs each. I also received my sub amp, Sub EQ, AVR, rope lighting and a few other miscellaneous items.

Here is all the equipment to date just egging me on to get the room done. In addition to the obvious equipment, you'll see some fabric over on the left. That is the Fidelio Velvet Ruben found (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8044804&&#post8044804) (and another link (http://www.smxscreen.com/forum/showpost.php?p=990&postcount=9))that I plan to use for my screen frame. I picked it up an Joanns. I had to drive about 45min to a store that had some in stock. They are out until mid November and I could not wait that long.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/equipment1.jpg

From Left to Right: Black Fidelio Velvet, Black Speaker Grill Cloth, Black GoM and Black Commando Cloth. (pic copyright SandmanX Inc.)
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/fidelio.jpg

Now if you did not notice the woofer sitting on top, here are a few pics of it (with a CD for size comparison).
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/SS1.jpg
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/SS2.jpg
NOTE: The CD on the bottom pic is hanging of the edge a bit so the size is slightly exaggerated. However, they are huge.

I remember my 1981 Camaro Z-28 and it had 15" rims on it (just like the pic below except mine was midnight blue). I thought they were huge on the car -- now image them on a speaker. That was one of my favorite cars as a kid. Lots of memories.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/81-Z28.jpg

And I will get a reply into everyone that has posted soon. I've just been so busy with the HT and work, I have not had time to get those answered.

ebr

09-12-06, 09:11 AM

http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/SS2.jpg

OMG. And I was toying with getting some 18"ers to try out the IB. :eek:

No, no, no....don't go cutting holes in a perfectly good theater wall...

Mark P

09-12-06, 10:29 AM

I tried telling ya that your neighbors were gonna be p:ssed, and you were going to have structual damage if you werent careful.

jikkjack

09-12-06, 03:24 PM

BritInVA

09-12-06, 03:53 PM

OMG :eek: :eek:

Toxarch

09-12-06, 04:06 PM

I looked at putting in an IB when I was building my room but I put it off thinking I could always change it later. Now you have me wanting to put one in again. I just have a 12" DVC (Dual Voice Coil) sub that I built in the room right now. It does a pretty good job. The other day I was outside while my brother was in town and watching a movie. I kept hearing thunder like a storm was approaching and then I figured out it was the sub in the theater. I can't even imagine what an IB could do. I have two 12" DVC and four 15" DVC subs laying around from my car audio days. Maybe I'll see how yours goes and then add one to my room too.

Take plenty of pictures of your IB and your DIY speakers.

Mark P

09-12-06, 04:40 PM

Because an IB is in free air it doesnt have the pronunced punch like a sealed 12" or whatever sub you move around with a badly treated room. It is more of a musical bass that goes lower and has that feeling that the bass is surrounding your body as well as in your body. It is very clean and isnt the bass you hear driving down the street next to slammed, tinted windowed, cant see the driver because the top of their head is two inches above the dashboard cars.

Its more like a Regal Cinema theater but sounds good and goes deep.

ebr

09-12-06, 08:53 PM

v1rtu0s1ty

09-12-06, 09:11 PM

Mini Update...
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/SS1.jpg
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/SS2.jpg

It's cool that you went with the IB route. I also joined the IB forum about 2 months ago. I posted some questions about things I'm not familiar with. I will also be putting an IB in my HT project. The equipments you bought were the same equipments they recommended to me. I cannot wait to hear from your feedback about your IB. Keep us posted! ;)

swithey

09-13-06, 12:29 AM

I picked up my (41) sheets of Johns Manville 814 2" insulation today. This has just about the same specs as OC703 at about half the price. A buddy let me borrow his truck to pick up the stuff. Cost was $8 for a 2'x4' sheet.

Here it is in the truck. It's an 8' bed and the stuff just about filled the entire area
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/insulation1.jpg

Finally, all my insulation is here. The blue stuff over on the left is the 5.5" cotton for my corner bass traps. The long box on the floor is 4 yards of SMX acoustically transparent screen material.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/insulation2.jpg

I also ordered all the parts for my HTPC. Everything shipped today so I should start assembly of it early next week. The drywaller is coming on Friday to texture the wet bar area. Once that is done I'll be able to finished putting up the molding around the entrance.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/WB-Pretexture.jpg

BUD -- you asked about my projector. I ordered it today and should have it tomorrow or Thur. I decided to try out the Infocus IN76. I bought 4 yards of blackout cloth from Joanns today to see what size screen will work best for my room. With my 40% coupon, it was only $16 -- that was cheaper than a painters drop cloth.

ifeliciano

09-13-06, 01:02 AM

Steve,

Where did you pick up the JM814 ?

Ivan

Mark P

09-13-06, 08:19 AM

I would go constant height 2.35:1 screen unless your going to have curtains. You have the SmX right? Your 16 x 9 and HD will stay that size. Your movies on the other hand will be incredible not to mention the impact a 2.35:1 screen has on a room as well as the ease of masking if you choose to.

Stretch that opening while you still have the chance!

ebr

09-13-06, 09:48 AM

I thought Steve was doing 2.35.... is the picture deceiving us?

If not, I second Mark's suggestion. 2.35:1 is really awesome. The true theater experience.

accts4mjs

09-13-06, 12:50 PM

I picked up my (41) sheets of Johns Manville 814 2" insulation today. This has just about the same specs as OC703 at about half the price. A buddy let me borrow his truck to pick up the stuff. Cost was $8 for a 2'x4' sheet.

Steve,

What made you choose the 814 over say the 813 or 817 (or any of the other 800 series from JM)?

Found a comparison PDF here: http://www.jm.com/insulation/performance_materials/products/ci9_800series_spin-glas.pdf

And I must say I have no clue how to determine what type of sound coefficients I would need/want for the various frequencies...in fact I don't even really know what that means :o

Thanks,
Mike

swithey

09-13-06, 02:49 PM

And on the 3rd day of Home Theater - Swithey created Thunder - and it was good. ;)
Oh Yea! Just as MarkP said -- my neighbors will HATE me. Hopefully, they will just join me.

swithey

09-13-06, 03:07 PM

swithey

09-13-06, 03:09 PM

swithey

09-13-06, 03:11 PM

I did notice that Mark(I am obviously not Swithey), but didn't think a whole lot about it. I have shown people your theater, Art's, Ruben's, EBR's and Mr. Poindexter's (all different but very cool) and people always ask about puting the woofers behind the screens and if the screens move. I have told them that as far as I know, the higher frequencies don't make a visible movement, but the lower notes could do it based on the amount of air moving and where things are in relation to drivers and ports. Make sure you post on here or your own thread if the screen stops moving when you get weaved (SMX).
Scott - will do. It should be an exciting test!

swithey

09-13-06, 03:13 PM

Steve your room really looks great and I will certainly be watching those speakers come to life...looks good so far.

Robert
Robert,

My drivers shipped a few days ago from Selah Audio so I should be assembling the surrounds soon. I also found a source for the flexible plywood for the curved sides on the LCRs. I plan to pick that stuff up soon and get started on those.

swithey

09-13-06, 03:14 PM

Great stuff - the room is coming along nicely and can't wait to see the speakers and subs....
Soon -- very soon :)

swithey

09-13-06, 03:25 PM

Man, you've got a lot of hours into this. It shows. All this talk on sub building, wood work, star ceiling, etc. Did you figure out the projector part of it yet? LGBTW (looks great by the way).

Bud
Thanks as always Bud. Yes, lots of talk but not much to show you guys yet. I should have something by this weekend.

I decided on the Infocus IN76. It is on order (my supplier was out of stock). Hopefully it will be in by the end of next week. My daughters are having a "sleep over" and I wanted to setup a make-shift room for them to watch a movie.

swithey

09-13-06, 03:28 PM

How's your hand after applying the GG? I went for the power gun for the 45 sheets I had to cover. Hope you can still hold a beer.

Looking great!

Gary
Actually it was not that bad. I only have to do it on 8 sheets -- luckily :) I did contemplate the power gun but for my limited job size, $150 could be spent well on something else.

swithey

09-13-06, 03:33 PM

http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/SS2.jpg

OMG. And I was toying with getting some 18"ers to try out the IB. :eek:

No, no, no....don't go cutting holes in a perfectly good theater wall... Now come-on -- just do it :D I'll be sure to share my experience in a way that will FORCE you to cut that hole and put 'em in!!

Sooo...has anyone thought about combining the two?

I mean, if I were to add an IB to my room and keep my SVS PB12+/2 would I get the best of both worlds or just a world of problems (with phase cancellations and such)...? I was actually contemplating doing a (2) 15" driver IB in the front and a single sealed 15" inthe rear. BPape said it would be hard to get everything balanced with that design. I know others have done it but not sure how "perfect" it was.

swithey

09-13-06, 03:36 PM

Have fun Steve. All I can say is 4 of those speakers are going to blow your freakin roof off the house.

I just hooked up my HSU sub last night and when I turned it up in a certain part of a movie - I thought a tree hit the house. That was just with 1 12" woofer. I can't imagine what yours is going to sound like...sonic boom maybe?...
That HSU is some sub. I was actually planning to get one or two of those before I discovered DIY subs. A great price on a really musical and powerful sub.

Honestly, I think I might scare myself the 1st few times -- but isn't that what it's all about?? :)

swithey

09-13-06, 03:39 PM

swithey

09-13-06, 03:40 PM

swithey

09-13-06, 03:41 PM

It's cool that you went with the IB route. I also joined the IB forum about 2 months ago. I posted some questions about things I'm not familiar with. I will also be putting an IB in my HT project. The equipments you bought were the same equipments they recommended to me. I cannot wait to hear from your feedback about your IB. Keep us posted! ;)
We probably read some of the same threads. I did research for a few months before I pulled the trigger. I'' have more to report soon.

swithey

09-13-06, 03:44 PM

Steve,

Where did you pick up the JM814 ?

Ivan
E.O. Wood. They are in Ft. Worth,TX

(972) 323-8811
Talk with Les

swithey

09-13-06, 03:49 PM

I thought Steve was doing 2.35.... is the picture deceiving us?

If not, I second Mark's suggestion. 2.35:1 is really awesome. The true theater experience.
I thought Steve was doing 2.35.... is the picture deceiving us?

If not, I second Mark's suggestion. 2.35:1 is really awesome. The true theater experience.
Yes, I am going 2.35:1. I am planning to rebuild that entire wall (glad I used deck screws on it). I wanted to get the projector in and see what size image I could tolerate from my seated position. I am shooting for a 9.5' 2.35:1 wide screen. I bought 4 yards of blackout cloth from Joanns the other day as my test material. I did not want to take the chance of messing up my SMX material.

swithey

09-13-06, 04:06 PM

Steve,

What made you choose the 814 over say the 813 or 817 (or any of the other 800 series from JM)?

Found a comparison PDF here: http://www.jm.com/insulation/performance_materials/products/ci9_800series_spin-glas.pdf

And I must say I have no clue how to determine what type of sound coefficients I would need/want for the various frequencies...in fact I don't even really know what that means :o

Thanks,
Mike
I used bpape to help me decide on which material, how thick and how much. I would HIGHLY recommend talking with him about it. The coefficients are just how much of each freq the material absorbs in a given amount of time. I'm sure bpape will be able to expand on that if he is reading this. The "standard" is the Owens Corning 703 which comes in 1", 2" and 3" thicknesses. I chose the Johns Manville because it was almost identical to the OC703 at nearly 1/2 the cost. The other JM products are all different (which changes the amount they will absorbtion). A lot of people use the JM Linacoustic material in 1" thickness. My room needed a more dense fiberglass so it forced me to look at the 814.

Here is a comparison between the two.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/InsulationCompare.JPG

accts4mjs

09-13-06, 07:12 PM

I used bpape to help me decide on which material, how thick and how much. I would HIGHLY recommend talking with him about it.

I agree. Unfortunately I'm in the "out of money" waiting for "is it bad and do I need help" stage of my project. I won't know until the theater's done (maybe a month or so from now). Primarily I promised my wife I was done spending money on this lovely black hole of mine -- I'd have to be able to really convince her to let me go back on that promise so I'll need evidence first ...

Thanks for the info on the material.

Mike

Mark P

09-13-06, 09:29 PM

Oh Yea! Just as MarkP said -- my neighbors will HATE me. Hopefully, they will just join me.I probably was a little rash in that statement. Your neighbors, neighbors, neighbors across the street neighbors will hate you.

bpape

09-14-06, 07:28 AM

In general for most appplications, a 3lb / cu ft density fiberglass is fine. Which brand you pick really matters very little. If it's the same density, the differences in the absorbtion coefficients are very small - usually so small that they're within the potential error in the measurements.

Some places OC is cheaper. Some places, it's JM. Biggest thing is usually what you can get locally.

swithey

09-14-06, 12:05 PM

ebr

09-14-06, 12:54 PM

My only thought is to make sure that rack will handle the weight of whatever that 7.1 amp is gonna be when its mounted up top like that. That rack has no rear support rails and telco equipment is usually pretty light.

I have my heavy amps on the bottom of my rack just because they can be properly supported down there (and they're a b!tch to mount up high). My 5 channel lex weighs in over 50lbs.

swithey

09-14-06, 01:48 PM

outsider142000

09-14-06, 02:12 PM

Steve,

Do you have an SKU # for the velvet?

Thanks

swithey

09-14-06, 02:28 PM

Steve,

Do you have an SKU # for the velvet?

Thanks
I do not have it with me but.. just call any Joanns, ask for the fabric cutting area and tell you you want the Black Fidelio Velvet. They have a book that has all the colors available (with part #s). I will tell you that it is backorded until Nov (at least here in Texas). You'll need to find a store that has it in-stock . It is a normally stocked item. Also, be sure to use one of their 40%-50% off coupons -- that really helps since that stuff is $20/yard. The coupons only come in the mail so you need to get on their mailing list (or find a friend that already is) to get them. Just visit any store to get on the list.

outsider142000

09-14-06, 03:02 PM

accts4mjs

09-14-06, 03:24 PM

Okay guys, I think I have my rack layed out but wanted to run it by you. I plan on terminating some cables tonight and wanted to be sure I cut them off at the right length.

I'm using an old aluminum Telco 19" rack my office was throwing away a few year back. It's pretty ugly but it was free and will be hidden in a closet anyway.

The pic is pretty self explanatory and everything is to scale. Everything is rack-mounted with the exception of the Pioneer AVR (which will sit on a shelf). I tried to put all the really hot stuff up top. What do you think?

Steve,

This is similar to what I'm doing. I picked up my rack off of eBay 4 years ago. I originally just had it lag screwed into a wall stud (on the side) to keep it from moving around and support the weight at the top, but that was before I started finishing the room. My current plan calls for only needing 3' of rack space and since it's 7' tall I thought I'd cut it at 4' and put the other 3' behind it and build a 4 post system out of it. I plan to put the racks on a box (weighted) with casters so I can pull the whole thing out of the closet (I can't get behind it anymore with the double 5/8" drywall/gg solution) to work on the wiring and any component swap out. Mine will be visible since I'm building custom face plates for a flush mount solution and I'll be spraying it black as well. [This is in case you want to snag any of my ideas, nothing like changing your plans midway to speed things up, right? ;) ]

I would say your current setup could benefit from making sure you bolt that thing to the floor with some really hefty lag bolts and see if you can either make or buy a bar (or bars) that would allow you to secure the top to the back of your closet (they do this for earthquake reasons in CA but it would help solve your "weight at the top of the rack" issue as well).

Good luck, and hopefully your screw holes aren't all stripped out like mine turned out to be (side-effect of used equipment I guess).

Mike

swithey

09-14-06, 03:28 PM

I have been to three stores and only one store had 1.5 yards of double velvet in stock. One employee said they could order it if I can get a SKU, but that must be backordered until November.

By any chance did you see the double velvet, is that comparable? Both are $20 a yard.

Thanks
You want the Fidelo as it is the blackest stuff out there. The other stuff could work but if they are the same price, I'd wait if you can. I called the store where I bought it and the part# is 1880251.

You can also buy it online from here (http://www.bymichelle.com/fidelio.html) for the same price (but I think they may be out of stock also).

swithey

09-14-06, 03:37 PM

Steve,

This is similar to what I'm doing. I picked up my rack off of eBay 4 years ago. I originally just had it lag screwed into a wall stud (on the side) to keep it from moving around and support the weight at the top, but that was before I started finishing the room. My current plan calls for only needing 3' of rack space and since it's 7' tall I thought I'd cut it at 4' and put the other 3' behind it and build a 4 post system out of it. I plan to put the racks on a box (weighted) with casters so I can pull the whole thing out of the closet (I can't get behind it anymore with the double 5/8" drywall/gg solution) to work on the wiring and any component swap out. Mine will be visible since I'm building custom face plates for a flush mount solution and I'll be spraying it black as well. [This is in case you want to snag any of my ideas, nothing like changing your plans midway to speed things up, right? ;) ]

I would say your current setup could benefit from making sure you bolt that thing to the floor with some really hefty lag bolts and see if you can either make or buy a bar (or bars) that would allow you to secure the top to the back of your closet (they do this for earthquake reasons in CA but it would help solve your "weight at the top of the rack" issue as well).

Good luck, and hopefully your screw holes aren't all stripped out like mine turned out to be (side-effect of used equipment I guess).

Mike
Thanks for the suggestions Mike. I think I have a 3' section of ladder I could use to brace it. If not, I know I could build something very easily out of 2x4s and plywood to secure it (and paint the entire thing black). Luckily since mine was babied here at our office, all the screw holes are in perfect condition (as well as the rack).

For my setup, I do have enough room to get behind it if needed. The closet is about 5' deep. The cutting idea with a table and casters never entered my mind but is an interesting and inventive idea to consider. Hmm.

outsider142000

09-14-06, 04:05 PM

You want the Fidelo as it is the blackest stuff out there. The other stuff could work but if they are the same price, I'd wait if you can. I called the store where I bought it and the part# is 1880251.

You can also buy it online from here (http://www.bymichelle.com/fidelio.html) for the same price (but I think they may be out of stock also).

Great, thank you very much. I have a 40% off Joanns coupon, so I would like to get it from there.

Again, thanks alot.

ejhuzy

09-14-06, 10:43 PM

Yes, I am going 2.35:1. I am planning to rebuild that entire wall (glad I used deck screws on it). I wanted to get the projector in and see what size image I could tolerate from my seated position. I am shooting for a 9.5' 2.35:1 wide screen. I bought 4 yards of blackout cloth from Joanns the other day as my test material. I did not want to take the chance of messing up my SMX material.

Steve,

Now that you've decided on 2.35 for sure, what's your plan for masking? I could use a two sentence tutorial for how that works. Is it just a manual process of hanging something? Automatic with curtins? Are you getting the idea I don't understand how the masking happens :)

Thanks for the help.

bpape

09-14-06, 10:52 PM

ifeliciano

09-14-06, 11:05 PM

I'm using an old aluminum Telco 19" rack my office was throwing away a few year back. It's pretty ugly but it was free and will be hidden in a closet anyway.
http://www.rackmountmart.com/prodspics/ar1002.jpg

Dag nabbit !! We've have thrown away so many of those racks and old DEC VAX server racks....Oh i'm so mad now :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

http://www.nmia.com/~cavlon/fseqpt/2003/5_2/rack21.JPG

ronnie_jackson

09-15-06, 02:12 AM

cky

09-17-06, 02:52 PM

The blue stuff over on the left is the 5.5" cotton for my corner bass traps.

Where did you get your cotton from?Do you have a web site where i can order online?

ifeliciano

09-17-06, 07:40 PM

Where did you get your cotton from?Do you have a web site where i can order online?

I think he got the acoustic cotton from bpape.

Sensible Sound Solutions (http://sensiblesoundsolutions.com/index.php?cPath=22&osCsid=12ea5b8764eee7959512e44ae559049f)

swithey

09-19-06, 12:46 AM

Update….

Wet Bar Area
--------------------
The Wet Bar area is now textured and painted. I still need to touch-up the HT ceiling and add the crown and base molding. After that, this project is on hold and I’m back to the HT – YEA
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/WB-Painted.JPG

DIY Speakers
--------------------
I know you guys have been waiting for progress updates on this. All my drivers arrived on Friday in perfect condition from Rick at Selah Audio.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/DIYS-Drivers.JPG

Rick also (as a value add service) assembled the crossovers which makes putting the speakers together a piece of cake. Here are the (10) XOs.

-- 1st column: Top (2) are for the bi-pole 2-way side surrounds, Bottom (2) are the for the 2-way rears
-- 2nd Column: Woofer crossover for all (3) LCRs
-- 3rd Column: Tweeter and Midrange crossover for all (3) LCRs
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/DIYS-Crossovers.JPG

Just so I could build up my skills a bit, I decided to build the easy speakers 1st – my surrounds. I know these do not have the WOW factor but its still progress!

Here are the front baffles with holes routed for the drivers. The (4) on the left are for the (2) bi-pole side surrounds. The remaining (2) are for the rear surrounds
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/DIYS-SurrBafs.JPG

Here is a dry fit of the rear surround. Not too exciting since it is just a square box. However, I’m excited to see these things finally coming together.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/DIY-RearSurrDry.JPG http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/DIYS-RearSurrDriversDry.JPG
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/DIY-RearSurrDry2.JPG

Here is a dry fit for one of the side surrounds. The side panels are pitched inward at 10deg.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/DIYS-SideSurrDry.JPG

I plan to get all (4) assembled tomorrow eve. I just ran out of gas this eve.

On a side note – last night about 11:30PM, I dropped my hammer (claw side of course) on the toe next to the big toe. Man did that hurt and it bled like the dickens. I must say my 1st thought was of good ‘ole Bud and how he broke his toe. Luckily, it does not appear to be broken (as it is not black and blue) – I just cut the skin pretty deep. No, I was not wearing shoes -- but plan to from this point forward! It hurt almost all day at work today and was really hard to walk. Tonight it feels MUCH better and is just a little swollen (all movement in tact). What a relief.

Also, my Infocus IN76 projector should be here Wed/Thur. This will be just in time for a movie. My daughter is having a sleepover and has been bugging (more like begging) me to watch a movie in the “Movie Room”. I plan to use the rear surrounds as my fronts and the side surrounds as, well, side surrounds. I’ll throw in an old speaker for the center and my trusty 8” sub. Should be enough to keep the natives happy. HOWEVER, the biggest part of this movie is I will be able to see what screen size I can project without SDE and artifacts. I plan to only offer Pixar “type” movies so I can work with the best content I have on hand. I'll throw up my 12’ wide piece of blackout cloth and enjoy the flick.

More soon…

swithey

09-19-06, 01:12 AM

Steve,

Now that you've decided on 2.35 for sure, what's your plan for masking? I could use a two sentence tutorial for how that works. Is it just a manual process of hanging something? Automatic with curtins? Are you getting the idea I don't understand how the masking happens :)

Thanks for the help.
If I plan to do masking, it will be used on the sides like you mentioned. It's on the list but near the bottom for now. In theory, I would just make some simple strips of fabric made out of the same velvet I'm using for the screen frame. It would attach with Velcro when needed. Motorized would be cool but I just don't have the time to make something like that right now. And, since the curtains would need to start from the side wall, it would drape in front of my speakers and color the audio to much.

Now -- the trick I'm going to try is to watch 1.78:1 material on my 2.35:1 screen (with NO black bars) is to crop just a little off the top and bottom and stretch it ever so slightly to make 1.78:1 look like 2.35:1 material. I'm not sure how this will look but with my HTPC and the TheaterTek DVD player software, it is worth a try.

swithey

09-19-06, 01:14 AM

OK. Call me impatient. I wanna see pics of the speaker cabinets!

I'm going to be treating Rick's room at Rocky Mountain Audio Fest (shared with Blue Circle Audio) as well as Wayne's (Boulder Cable) room with misc tweak stuff. I'd really like to get your impressions of the design before I head out (mid October)

Bryan
In progress. I know you are most interested in the LCRs and I should be starting on those soon. I should be done with them before the show since the OU vs. Texas game is October 4th (my official deadline according to the wife).

swithey

09-19-06, 01:16 AM

Dag nabbit !! We've have thrown away so many of those racks and old DEC VAX server racks....Oh i'm so mad now :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

http://www.nmia.com/~cavlon/fseqpt/2003/5_2/rack21.JPG
Wow -- I would have loved to have one of those too :) Oh well, keep checking CraigsList -- you never know what will pop up there.

swithey

09-19-06, 01:24 AM

WoWeeeeeeeeee!!!!!! The SwitheMaster has been very busy. Man, I get stuck working a ton of hours for the last few weeks, cant do hardly anything on my theater, then take a look at your thread and your building all this cool stuff and stocking more equipment than the local Best Buy. Very nice stuff Steve. Im glad I live close, because I gotta come back over and check this out!

BTW, I think im going to go with that same projector. I like it better than the Panny. Cant wait to see it in action.

Awesome work man.

Ronnie
Citibank "held" my credit card twice last week because of all the Internet purchases I made. It was a simple phone call to confirm things but still a bit of a hassle. However, better safe than sorry.

Yes, making progress and WAY behind on my postings. I've been working on the HT every eve for the past 3 weeks -- I am worn out. Your "hidden door" looks awesome -- I need to see that sucker in person too.

As I said earlier, I should have the projector later this week. I cannot wait to get it hooked up. I'll let you know how it goes.

bpape

09-19-06, 07:59 AM

OMG - now you're in trouble. You have an official deadline...

Arrrrrr. (Don't forget it's National Talk Like A Pirate Day)

Bryan

Mark P

09-19-06, 10:13 AM

Swithey, I cleared out PMs. Sorry, try again

Mark P

09-19-06, 10:31 AM

What are the dimensions of your surrounds? Is the hole in the rear for an input cup or a vent?

Brad Horstkotte

09-19-06, 11:58 AM

OMG - now you're in trouble. You have an official deadline...

Arrrrrr. (Don't forget it's National Talk Like A Pirate Day)

Bryan

Ye scurvey dog! Shiver me timbers!

swithey

09-19-06, 08:30 PM

What are the dimensions of your surrounds? Is the hole in the rear for an input cup or a vent?
The external dimensions are 10" wide x 15" tall x 9" deep (about .49cu/ft internal). The 7" Dayton driver likes anything above .34cu/ft.

The hole in the rear is for the input cup/speaker terminals. All my speakers (including the LCRs) are a sealed design. I didn't have the depth in my columns for a ported speaker and decided to do a sealed design for the fronts as well (for other reasons). The surrounds will start to taper off around 75Hz but that will be fine since I plan to cross my AVR at 80Hz anyway.

swithey

09-19-06, 08:49 PM

OMG - now you're in trouble. You have an official deadline...

Arrrrrr. (Don't forget it's National Talk Like A Pirate Day)

Bryan
I've been working until about midnight or 1AM nearly every night trying to get the room done. I'm not much of a coffee drinker but lately it is the only way I can stay awake at work.

My projector will be in tomorrow. I'll have it hooked up tomorrow night for a quick preview. Arrrrrr -- no sleep for this Pirate tomorrow night :rolleyes:

YldeSyde

09-19-06, 08:49 PM

On a side note – last night about 11:30PM, I dropped my hammer (claw side of course) on the toe next to the big toe. Man did that hurt and it bled like the dickens. I must say my 1st thought was of good ‘ole Bud and how he broke his toe. Luckily, it does not appear to be broken (as it is not black and blue) – I just cut the skin pretty deep. No, I was not wearing shoes -- but plan to from this point forward! It hurt almost all day at work today and was really hard to walk. Tonight it feels MUCH better and is just a little swollen (all movement intact). What a relief.

I leave you alone and look what happens! Sorry I haven't been around. I guess I really do need to learn how to get to the hospital from your house. Just kidding...REALLY! You have to give yourself credit for making it this far with nothing major goign wrong.

I assume you already dry-fitted the surrounds and rears in your column openings, yes? I should be off this Saturday if you need help. Thsi work stuff sure gets in the way of the HT. I know you are getting worn out, but the rest of us are getting giddy with you getting so close to openning day. Keep it up Steve!!!!!!!!!!

ifeliciano

09-19-06, 10:09 PM

bpape

09-19-06, 10:11 PM

Gotta watch living on coffee. Before you know it, you'll be dropping things on your toes ;)

Bryan

ifeliciano

09-19-06, 10:18 PM

I've been working until about midnight or 1AM nearly every night trying to get the room done. I'm not much of a coffee drinker but lately it is the only way I can stay awake at work.

Nothing like a refreshing Coca Sek (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=1403892&page=1) to keep you quite awake. :eek: :eek:

http://images.needcoffee.com/cocasek.jpg

Or you can always opt for Jolt Cola :D

ejhuzy

09-20-06, 08:32 AM

If I plan to do masking, it will be used on the sides like you mentioned. It's on the list but near the bottom for now. In theory, I would just make some simple strips of fabric made out of the same velvet I'm using for the screen frame. It would attach with Velcro when needed. Motorized would be cool but I just don't have the time to make something like that right now. And, since the curtains would need to start from the side wall, it would drape in front of my speakers and color the audio to much.

Now -- the trick I'm going to try is to watch 1.78:1 material on my 2.35:1 screen (with NO black bars) is to crop just a little off the top and bottom and stretch it ever so slightly to make 1.78:1 look like 2.35:1 material. I'm not sure how this will look but with my HTPC and the TheaterTek DVD player software, it is worth a try.

Thanks for the explanation. That helps a lot. I kind of figured if I went 2.35 I'd do masking on the side too with the black velvet.

I like your idea on watching 1.78 material. My Sony LCD can do that kind of zoom. Are you implying that your projector can't? I'm a projector newbie too :)

BTW, what made you change your mide to go 2.35? Personally, I love the 2.35 look. But I'm probably going to watch more sports and HDTV than movies (although I'd love for that not to be the case). If I stuck with 16x9, wouldn't I just get horizontal black bars for anamorphic material? Meaning I'd either have to mask or zoom. Right?

Thanks again.

SVonhof

09-20-06, 09:13 AM

I was in a golf tournament this weekend and one of the guys was drinking a "Sparks" and saying that was all he needed. Didn't know what he was talking about, so I asked and he told me it is an energy drink like Monster or Rock Star or Red Bull but also has 6% alcohol in it (probably malt). Something like that would be good for after work as long as you don't have any precision work to do or are not hanging an expensive projector or working with power tools.....

Mark P

09-20-06, 10:30 AM

Now -- the trick I'm going to try is to watch 1.78:1 material on my 2.35:1 screen (with NO black bars) is to crop just a little off the top and bottom and stretch it ever so slightly to make 1.78:1 look like 2.35:1 material. I'm not sure how this will look but with my HTPC and the TheaterTek DVD player software, it is worth a try.You wont like it and its not a little bit of black bar, its alot. I bump all 178:1 up to 1.85:1 and all 2.40:1 down to 2.35:1

swithey

09-20-06, 04:32 PM

I leave you alone and look what happens! Sorry I haven't been around. I guess I really do need to learn how to get to the hospital from your house. Just kidding...REALLY! You have to give yourself credit for making it this far with nothing major goign wrong.

I assume you already dry-fitted the surrounds and rears in your column openings, yes? I should be off this Saturday if you need help. Thsi work stuff sure gets in the way of the HT. I know you are getting worn out, but the rest of us are getting giddy with you getting so close to openning day. Keep it up Steve!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for all your help so far. You get settled in your new job -- don't worry about me. We'll connect soon so you can see the room in action!

swithey

09-20-06, 04:43 PM

Gotta watch living on coffee. Before you know it, you'll be dropping things on your toes ;)

Bryan
One cup in the morning does the body good for me. I guess I'm a lightweight. In fact, I've lost 10lbs over the past month with all this work. Hmm .. HT = Weight Loss. That might help some guys get the WAF approval to start on a HT. Who needs a BowFlex when you have a HT to build :D

On the speakers -- all (4) surrounds are glued up. I plan to hit them with a trim bit and sander tonight to smooth them up. I'll get the drivers installed and give them a try. My new projector is in the trunk and I should get that hung soon as well. I think its going to be another late night.

swithey

09-20-06, 04:46 PM

Been there. Luckily my company offers safety shoes for all engineering and technical personnel. So I get a pair every year. :D
Yes, dumb mistake. I've been working barefoot a lot on this construction. Guess my luck just ran out. Shoes all the time from now on :)

swithey

09-20-06, 04:48 PM

Nothing like a refreshing Coca Sek (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=1403892&page=1) to keep you quite awake. :eek: :eek:

http://images.needcoffee.com/cocasek.jpg

Or you can always opt for Jolt Cola :D
Now that stuff will really give you a JOLT :eek: Actually in the eves, I'll drink a Coke to give me a small boost. The trick is to stay moving. If I ever sit in the thinking chair or ponder too long on something -- it's all over.

swithey

09-20-06, 04:57 PM

Thanks for the explanation. That helps a lot. I kind of figured if I went 2.35 I'd do masking on the side too with the black velvet.

I like your idea on watching 1.78 material. My Sony LCD can do that kind of zoom. Are you implying that your projector can't? I'm a projector newbie too :)

BTW, what made you change your mide to go 2.35? Personally, I love the 2.35 look. But I'm probably going to watch more sports and HDTV than movies (although I'd love for that not to be the case). If I stuck with 16x9, wouldn't I just get horizontal black bars for anamorphic material? Meaning I'd either have to mask or zoom. Right?

Thanks again.
My projector can "fill" the screen as well but only a 1.78:1 screen since the optics are only 1.78:1 (vs. 2.35:1). I am using a Panamorph lens achieve the 2.35:1 look. TheaterTek just allows me to keep the lens in place 100% of the time for both format sizes. It can stretch or squeeze the image via software (which can be controlled via an IR remote and HTPC) -- a more "family" friendly setup IMO.

If you did 1.78:1, you would indeed get the horizontal back bars. 1.78:1 is indeed a little easier but I did the 2.35:1 because I love the look. Sports are a deciding factor as well. I'll just plan on watching them a little smaller and deal with it. AND, it looks like (base on Mark P's comment) that my idea of cropping and stretching is a no-go. Making it 1.85:1 may be the way to go.

swithey

09-20-06, 04:58 PM

swithey

09-20-06, 04:59 PM

You wont like it and its not a little bit of black bar, its alot. I bump all 178:1 up to 1.85:1 and all 2.40:1 down to 2.35:1
A great compromise and easy to do. Thanks for the idea!

accts4mjs

09-20-06, 05:06 PM

Yes, dumb mistake. I've been working barefoot a lot on this construction. Guess my luck just ran out. Shoes all the time from now on :)

LOL! At least you're smart enough to put shoes on. I still go barefoot (or maybe sandals -- I hate shoes) most of the time and I have many a bloody mark on the bottoms, tops, and sides of my feet to show for it. Not too smart really...

Mike

swithey

09-20-06, 05:15 PM

LOL! At least you're smart enough to put shoes on. I still go barefoot (or maybe sandals -- I hate shoes) most of the time and I have many a bloody mark on the bottoms, tops, and sides of my feet to show for it. Not too smart really...

Mike
Ahh yes, some nicks and cuts along the way as well. I know when I was staining the columns and star ceiling, the bottom of my feet were dark brown (from all the drops of stain that hit the floor). My daughter thought I was diseased when she saw them once :o

ebr

09-20-06, 08:41 PM

Just FYI - I don't find the need to mask my screen as much when watching 1.85 material on my 2.35 screen. The side areas just don't bother me much as top/bottom bars do.

SVonhof

09-20-06, 08:59 PM

Ahh yes, some nicks and cuts along the way as well. I know when I was staining the columns and star ceiling, the bottom of my feet were dark brown (from all the drops of stain that hit the floor). My daughter thought I was diseased when she saw them once :o

Word to the wise. If you are going to do yardwork with a string trimmer, wear shoes, instead of going barefoot or with sandals.

Need a visual?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/SVonhof/bite_1_sm.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/SVonhof/Bite_2_sm.jpg

images linked so as not to shock the squeemish!

The electrical cord was coming out and it stopped working. I flipped it over to push the cord back in and by doing that, pulled the trigger at the same time as pushing in the cord.... The shin shot is from me pulling the trimmer up so it wouldn't hit my foot and it knicked my skin several times as I pulled it off my foot.

Didn't hurt much the first two days, but after that...

swithey

09-21-06, 02:21 AM

It's late (or early depending on how you look at it) so I'll make this a quick one...

I have all (4) surrounds sanded and ready for drivers. The baffles will be attached tomorrow as well. Here is a pic of them as they look tonight.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/DIYS-RawSurrDry3.JPG

I installed my Infocus IN76 on a temp shelf in the rear of the room. I wanted to see how high it needed to sit to get the image right. First impression is that it is an outstanding projector. Fan noise it tolerable on Economy mode (which has a ton of brightness even in a heavily lit room). I need to do the firmware update that reduces the fan noise even more. I'll have more info after the test movie on Friday.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/TempProjShelf.JPG

Here is the 12' piece of blackout cloth I'm using as a temp screen. I have the image at about 10' wide and it looks great at about 11.5' back. I do not see SDE and very little if any artifacts (depends on the source). It's hooked up via component right now but I plan to play around with HDMI once the cable is delivered.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/TempScreen.JPG

corey76

09-21-06, 02:33 AM

All I can say is wow, all the brains to build a theater and none to wear shoes when doing the lawn..........

LOL!

Sorry, you probaby don't find that funny. My wife one day decided that she wanted to learn how to mow the lawn, I said ok, she walks out wearing flip flops. I told to get back in that house and get some real shoes on with socks. She's like why, what's the big deal......

I get to show her your pics now : )

SVonhof

09-21-06, 09:18 AM

swithey

09-21-06, 09:23 AM

Word to the wise. If you are going to do yardwork with a string trimmer, wear shoes, instead of going barefoot or with sandals.
That looks like it hurts! That'll leave a mark :D Lesson learned I'm sure!! I'd post pics of my toe but not sure anyone really wants to see more blood :rolleyes:

swithey

09-21-06, 09:56 AM

All I can say is wow, all the brains to build a theater and none to wear shoes when doing the lawn..........
My Dad taught me early on to always wear shoes when doing lawn work and I've always worn them. But.. I must have missed his talk on "Garage Shoe Safety" :p

outfitter

09-25-06, 07:45 PM

Hey Steve, what's the latest with those speakers? I hope the PJ install didn't knock you off track!

jikkjack

09-25-06, 08:01 PM

outfitter - you called it right. I bet mr. steve there installed the projector and finished his speakers and won't be back on this board for a week.

ifeliciano

09-26-06, 01:24 AM

Hey Steve, what's the latest with those speakers? I hope the PJ install didn't knock you off track!

Heel boy, heel ... :D Im sure he's got enough on his plate as it is. ;) You don't want him to rush and hurt his foot or something else. :eek:

Yea how are those speakers coming along ? I already cut all the braces on the bandsaw and will run them through the router later this week. I need to fix a few leaks in my dust collector before I begin to make lots of mdf dust.

swithey

09-26-06, 11:56 AM

I'm here guys -- I have not forgot about you. I took some pics last night and I will post sometime today. However, I have NOT started on the LCRs yet but have semi-completed all (4) surrounds and they sound GREAT. More soon.

Ivan -- VERY jealous of your progress right now! BPape is bugging me to get those built ASAP :D

bpape

09-26-06, 01:55 PM

Hey, you got a football game to be ready for. Don't ya wanna hear Texas get thumped in surround? ;)

Bryan

Toxarch

09-26-06, 04:53 PM

Hey, you got a football game to be ready for. Don't ya wanna hear Texas get thumped in surround? ;)

Bryan

Even though his wife doesn't agree, Steve knows Texas is going to win.

ifeliciano

09-26-06, 06:35 PM

Hey, you got a football game to be ready for.
Bryan

Oh, You mean Super Bowl XLI, starting the Chicago Bears !! :D

swithey

09-27-06, 03:14 PM

Mixed Update…

Sorry it took me so long to post. Time has been short the past few days.

Movie Night
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We had a blast watching a movie on a 9.5’ wide screen. I cannot tell you how much fun it was. I watched Shrek on Friday night with the kids, The Horse Whispered (wife’s idea) on Saturday night with the wife and King King by myself Sunday eve. All were outstanding. I was especially impressed with King King and the realism of ape. I had not seen this flic before and was really impressed with the life-like quality of the film. It just looked great on my IN76. I also viewed a number of the demos DVDs made by the AVS Forum members and was finally able to hear the surround detail I was missing. My cheap 8" subwoofer was bottoming out quite a bit when I watched Kweezrs DTS Disc #6. I've watched that thing about 6 times on my crappy living room setup and nothing compares to that I heard in the room. I can only imagine what HELL is going to break loose once get my LCRs and IB sub built.

Here is a pic of the front stage. It is just thrown together as I had just finished adding the drivers to the speakers before the girls were ready to watch the movie. Oh and well.. aa… well.. aa.. that IS a BOSE center channel in the middle. I was forced to get this about 6 years ago because it was the only size that fit above my TV in my old house. Go ahead – throw ‘em out at me now, I’m ready ;)
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/QuickMovieNight.JPG

DIY Speakers
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I guess that is a good segway onto the DIY speakers. These speakers sounds great. I have not sat down and had any long-length listening session with them yet but I like them a lot. I am particularly impressed with the bi-pole side surrounds. At first they did not come alive and I was wondering if I had everything hooked up properly. Then I realized I just need to increase the volume to the sides so that they matched the fronts and rears. They need a bit more power since the load is split over (4) speakers vs. (2). Surround detail was amazing. I noticed the sound coming from the side of the room but could not pinpoint exactly where – just what I was looking for. When I was watching KK during the dinosaur rumble chapter, twigs were snapping and food was chewed. I caught myself looking back at the HT entry door in the rear corner because I thought I heard the doorknob turning. VERY cool.

Here is a pic of the rear surrounds. I still need to put a ½” round-over on the vertical edges and add veneer. My wife thinks I’m insane for spending ANY more time on these since they will be hidden inside the speaker column. My answer was “But I will know they are ugly back here”. I just got a shrug and a “it’s your time I guess”.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/DIYS-RearSurrDrivers1.JPG

Here is one of the rear surrounds inside the rear column. It fits like a glove. In fact, once I add the veneer, it may not fit unless I make the hole about 2mm wider.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/DIYS-RearSurrDrivers2.JPG

And here is the bi-pole surround. It’s hard to tell in this pic but the sides pitch inward 10deg to angle the sounds out into the room.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/DIYS-SideSurrDrivers1.JPG

DIY Screen
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One of the main reasons for watching a bunch of movies this weekend of different types was to see what size screen worked best in my room. Of course (and the purists will hate this) my goal was to put in the largest screen that I could without compromising too much picture quality. 9.5’ wide ended up being just about right. I could squeeze up to 10’ but then I would be forced to put my L/R fronts behind the AT screen. I wanted to keep those as clean as possible so putting them just outside the screen is the plan. At this point, the center channel will be the only speaker behind the screen. I used 1x4 pine and 1/4" masonite to keep the corners strong. I must say, I got this thing nearly dead-square. Patience is the key to that :)
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Screen-Frame1.JPG

Projector
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1st off, I am very impressed with the brightness and picture quality of this projector. I had a chance to demo a BenQ PE7700 about a year ago and this projector is superior. I also demoed a Panny 900U and while the Panny is a great LCD projector, the DLP Infocus was more crisp. Light output on this sucker is outstanding. I am using it on low-power/movie mode and the picture is very bright (even on my inexpensive black-out cloth “temp” screen). Projector noise was only audible during quiet scenes. I noticed it the most during “The Horse Whisper” because this movie is loaded with scenes like that. I was able to use the IN76 with and without my Panamorph anamorphic lens. I did notice a slight pincushion on the lower corners (about 1/2"). Nothing too noticeable but I just plan to zoom the image out just slightly to hide this distraction. Overall, the lens did not degrade the picture quality in the least and It was nice to see the full width of the pic without wasting light output on black bars.

I did notice almost immediately that I had 2 dust blobs right in the center of the screen. You could only see them when the screen was black but they were there. After talking with Infocus about the issue, I’m picking up my replacement projector tomorrow for my local distributor. The area the dust blob lives is sealed and this should never happen (according to Infocus) – so I must have gotten a bad one. I read on the forum of a few others that had the same issue and Infocus replaced them ASAP.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Projector1.JPG

So what’s next on the list you ask??
- Finish DIY screen (attach material, make frame and cover with black velvet). Yldesyde/David -- I would love your help on this if you can pull yourself away from your 80hr/wk job ;)
- Redo front wall to accommodate 2.35:1 screen
- Paint all the studs black and add black GOM
- Finish up the HTPC so I can receive HDTV for the game next weekend
- Resume work on the LCRs. These will be fun to build