SWithey Home Theater Construction [Text View] - Page 7

Mark P

11-16-06, 06:19 PM

Winkleman,
its used for many things but no its not the stuff youre thinking of in autos, maybe Mercedes or Lambroghini but not Ford or Chevy, this stuff is very pricey and the stuff youre thinking of is sort of like this but nowhere near the density.

What this is mainly used for is industrial applications like Air handling units/chillers/ isolation pads. Anything large and with strong vibration needs isolation from the floor/roof or you will feel the vibration through the entire building and actually weaken a structure from the vibration.

Its also used for gaskets for the same intentions, the stuff is pretty amazing and is hard to cut in the sense you wont go through it with a utility knife in one swipe, it takes several with a sharp blade and will dull the blades fairly quick. just use a straight edge and cut straight and smooth with several strokes and you will get good at it after a couple cuts, at this point it becomes east to cut. I have used 3/8" and prefer 1/2"

bpape

11-16-06, 11:13 PM

Hey Steve.

What's worse - listening to the significant other harass you to do honey-do's instead of working on the theater - or - listening to us nag you to get those speakers done?

;) :D

Bryan

r00ster

11-17-06, 11:37 AM

swithey

11-17-06, 12:37 PM

Hey Steve.

What's worse - listening to the significant other harass you to do honey-do's instead of working on the theater - or - listening to us nag you to get those speakers done?

;) :D

Bryan
I think I'd rather listen to you guys more than hear the wife nag me :o At least I can't "see" you guys give me "the look" :rolleyes:

I did get the 1st layer of the skin on one side of all (3) speakers completed. It was not that difficult and that flexible plywood was really easy to work with. Once I secured each corner with 2-3 brads, the rest was easy. I cannot apply the other side until the felt arrives (should arrive sometime next week). I have a bunch of stuff going on this weekend but I'm shooting to get the 2nd layer applied to all the speakers and hopefully get the edges routed/sanded smooth. I'll get some pics up by end of the weekend.

swithey

11-17-06, 03:17 PM

Hey Steve, Thought I would let you know I got my axioms yesterday! :D I ended up buying the axioms instead of building my own. Not because of the cost the difference was only around $300 (axioms were less) but because of the time to build the speakers. I want my project done so I can start enjoying it. I think you will agree that building speakers can take some time. ;)

Drew
I completely understand. If I would have had more flexibility with depth inside my columns, I may have gone the Axiom/Ascend route myself. I love the design of the QS8s and think you will be very pleased with their performance. It is even better that the Axioms were cheaper than the DIY design!

And , yes, speaker building does change "instant gratification" into "delayed gratification" -- so patience/time is definitely a requirement. Believe me, I'm really anxious to get the LCRs in place so I can finally retire my anemic center channel. I'll be watching your thread for your thoughts on their performance!

nickbuol

11-18-06, 03:08 PM

Hey Steve, Thought I would let you know I got my axioms yesterday! :D I ended up buying the axioms instead of building my own. Not because of the cost the difference was only around $300 (axioms were less) but because of the time to build the speakers. I want my project done so I can start enjoying it. I think you will agree that building speakers can take some time. ;)

Drew

I've been silently reading this thread since the beginning, it is amazing how much time goes in to making a quality product yourself, let alone a great home theater.

Drew, I think that you will really like your Axioms. I bought mine almost two years ago (it doesn't seem that long ago), back when a lot of people here at AVS were very much anti-Axiom and anti-Ascend. It is amazing how much things have changed, even though the products are pretty much the same today as they were back then.

Anyway, just my side commentary. I don't want to disrupt this thread too much.

bpape

11-18-06, 11:49 PM

"The look".... I know that VERY well. I'm spending most of this weekend redoing the living room. Strip wallpaper, enzyme it down, patch the drywall, prime, paint, etc.

Bryan

myfipie

11-19-06, 08:21 AM

Hey Bryan once your done fly to Atlanta and help me with my room. I have A LOT of painting to do in the new room. :D

Glenn

bpape

11-19-06, 09:35 AM

Sure - except I'm trading this painting for a new plasma for the living room and getting away with a 2nd music system in here. Whatcha offering?

Bryan

swithey

11-19-06, 09:17 PM

Sure - except I'm trading this painting for a new plasma for the living room and getting away with a 2nd music system in here. Whatcha offering?

Bryan
That's a hell of an hourly rate ;) Congrats on the 2nd music system! If the amp you plan to use is the one you just bought at the show -- I'd love your feedback on the sound.

swithey

11-19-06, 09:19 PM

Anyway, just my side commentary. I don't want to disrupt this thread too much.
No bother -- we're all here to learn :)

bpape

11-20-06, 07:44 AM

swithey

11-20-06, 10:02 AM

DIY Speaker Update…

I got the kids to bed on time last night and the wife was out with some friends so.. I figured it was an optimal time to do some work on the ‘ole speakers. It felt great to get some work done! IMO – a very productive night.

If you remember, I had the frame done and was in need of an outer skin. I applied the 1st layer of 3/8” bendable ply last weekend and applied the 2nd layer last night. I only have one side done because I need to affix the felt inside before it is sealed up. The lower cavity will be a challenge to get to once the sides are applied.

Here is a pic of the 2-layers applied and with the extra material protruding over the side.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/LCR-RouteEdges6.JPG

I used a router set at a depth about 1mm above the actual surface to remove 99% of the material.
Using a sweeping motion, I slowly removed the material. It was very easy and only took about 10 minutes per side.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/LCR-RouteEdges1.JPG
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/LCR-RouteEdges2.JPG

Here is a pic of what it looks like after routing but before sanding. A bit rough - but remember I have about another 1mm of material to remove with the sander -- which will make it look perfect.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/LCR-RouteEdges7.JPG

After the material was removed, I used some 60 grit sandpaper and took off the remaining material for a baby-smooth finish. Sanding took about another 10 minutes per side.
NOTE: The small nails will be used to align the 2nd layer of the front baffle.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/LCR-RouteEdges4.JPG

Here are the (3) speakers as they look today. If I receive the felt this week, I’ll get that applied and finish the other sides as well. I still need to use a trim bit to smooth out the top and bottom of each speaker. I plan to do that after the other sides are applied.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/LCR-OneSideOn.JPG

More soon…

SVonhof

11-20-06, 10:15 AM

Steve, you left your car in the garage when using the router?

bpape

11-20-06, 10:20 AM

Lookin good Steve. Will have to make it down sometime to take a listen. My niece is bugging me to come down and see their new place.

Bryan

swithey

11-20-06, 10:24 AM

Yup. Got my preamp downstairs burning in right now. Amps should be ready, hopefully by the middle of December. DAC is on it's way. Now just have to decide if I'm going to buy or build the speakers. My available time says buy something. My gut says build it.

Bryan
Based on the caliber of speakers you listen to, it would be far less expensive to build your own. Those SEAS Excel tweets married to the drivers you told me about a while back (I cannot remember the name) would make a nice 2-channel "Totem-like" floorstander. XO would be a pretty simple design. I'm sure Rick Craig can help you out with that as well.

Please keep us in the loop on your decision.

swithey

11-20-06, 10:28 AM

Steve, you left your car in the garage when using the router?
Aaaaaa... Yesssss :o -- dumb move I know. It was just too late when I realized it was still in the garage. I was very focused last night -- side blinders and all. Before I left for work this morning, I backed it out onto the driveway and blew off off the dust with a leaf blower. I'm sure my neighbors loved that :D

FluxCubby

11-20-06, 03:55 PM

Im guessing he will be fine on volume as long as someone figured out those curves which would take better math skills than I could figure

Probably the easiest way to calculate the internal volume would be to draw the cross section of the LCRs in a program like AutoCAD, and use that to find the area of the cross section. Then multiply this by the height of the speaker.

Steve, those LCRs are looking awesome. I can't wait to see the finished product.

swithey

11-20-06, 05:13 PM

Probably the easiest way to calculate the internal volume would be to draw the cross section of the LCRs in a program like AutoCAD, and use that to find the area of the cross section. Then multiply this by the height of the speaker.

Steve, those LCRs are looking awesome. I can't wait to see the finished product.
If anyone wants to figure this out -- I think you can just import this PDF into ACAD and get your answer pretty quickly. HERE (http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/RS-3Way Pattern (1).pdf), HERE (http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/RS-3Way Shelf B (1).pdf) and HERE (http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/RS-3Way Front & Side (1).pdf) are the PDFs if anyone wants to attempt it. In my case, I just took the curved sides and estimated with some triangles. Easy to figure the area out that way and you get "pretty" close to actual.

And glad you like the speakers. I'm anxious to get them finished up but with the Thanksgiving Holiday right around the corner, I'm not sure how much I'll get done. My wife has already put me on XMas tree and outdoor light duty. I'm "this" close to hiring someone to put them up for me this year. Now if I can only stop those pesky rabbits from chewing through my light wires (on the bushes), I'll be happy. I lose about 3 sets each year to those furry devils.

smidley

11-20-06, 05:16 PM

Jeallous!

swithey

11-20-06, 05:27 PM

Jeallous!
Thanks :o Hopefully they'll look and sound great. I'll know pretty soon.

SVonhof

11-20-06, 09:35 PM

If anyone wants to figure this out -- I think you can just import this PDF into ACAD and get your answer pretty quickly. HERE (http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/RS-3Way Pattern (1).pdf), HERE (http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/RS-3Way Shelf B (1).pdf) and HERE (http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/RS-3Way Front & Side (1).pdf) are the PDFs if anyone wants to attempt it. In my case, I just took the curved sides and estimated with some triangles. Easy to figure the area out that way and you get "pretty" close to actual.

Steve, shouldn't be a problem. I will see if I can work on it tomorrow at work. Pro-E is a wonderful thing. Everything is in 3D.

SVonhof

11-20-06, 09:41 PM

Oh, here is a PDF I made for my subwoofer that I was going to create. I was going to use the two 10" drivers I had in the Titanic 1000 Kits, but ended up having two different drivers (MKII and a first generation driver) and they were too different to use, so I ended up putting a single Dayton Titanic 12" MKIII driver in the same box, with the same basic ports.
http://vonhofs.com/sub/titanic_2_sub.pdf

BFauska

11-20-06, 11:53 PM

Steve,
I started drawing the shape of your cabinets in autocad and was done figuring out the areo of the base to multiply it by the height and noticed that the area of the base is notated on the drawing. All the numbers are there to do the math. The mid and tweet volume is 1607.4 cubic inches, I didn't do the math on the woofers becase I wasn't sure what thickness your braces were to subtract that from the volume, but the numbers are there, and you could figure it easy enough.

Everything is looking great, I think you're going to have a beautiful theater to enjoy when it's all said and done.

Keep up the good work.

Brian

SVonhof

11-21-06, 10:43 AM

Steve, I hope you had a few more dimensions to work with to get the same volumes that are given on the drawings. Are you doing a single front panel, then attaching the sides (two layers of 3/8" flexible plywood) and then putting a second front panel on? I modeled it using two front panels and then the flexible plywood going on last and the driver face-plate cut-outs are breaking out of the front panel:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/SVonhof/steve.jpg

SVonhof

11-21-06, 11:36 AM

swithey

11-21-06, 05:17 PM

Steve, here is a PDF of what I think is how you are making your speakers:
http://vonhofs.com/files/STEVE.pdf

For the volume, I made the assumption on the dimension from the back of the baffle to the front of the midrange/tweeter sub-enclosure. If you have the real dimensions, I can modify my numbers and get the new info in a matter of minutes.
Hey Scott -- thanks for putting all that effort together for the drawing. It is very cool. To answer your questions:

1) The internal depth of the mid/tweet area is 5 1/2".

2) I did double up the plywood on the top and bottom cabinet. I just made the front baffle 1.5" taller (with Rick Craig's approval) to keep the internal volume the same.

3) The dado slots I used to inset the braces, top and bottom only go in 1/4". I could not tell from your drawing what depth you used.

EDIT: Corrected #2 -- Baffle increase was 1.5" not 3"

SVonhof

11-21-06, 08:27 PM

I figured out the 1/4" deep dado's based on the drawing. It is incorrect in the first image, but is correct on the drawing. I will make the correction on the model tomorrow when I get to work and run the numbers again. If you know how much the wood weighs (per 4x8 sheet) I can figure out how much your cabinets should weigh (minus the drivers and foam/wool and such.
I had figured you doubled the top and bottom, but didn't put that in the drawing. How about the back? Just single wall? Probably won't flex too much as it's not very wide.

SVonhof

11-21-06, 08:29 PM

BTW, it's no problem. Gave me something to do this morning when the servers were having issues with releasing drawings.

SVonhof

11-22-06, 09:56 AM

Steve, here is a new PDF: http://vonhofs.com/files/STEVE_FULL.pdf

I will leave it on my web server, so do what you want with it. I simply put the driver cut-outs as through holes on both layers of the front baffle, which in reality you wouldn't do, but since I didn't have enough info, I left it like that.

swithey

11-22-06, 12:00 PM

Steve, here is a new PDF: http://vonhofs.com/files/STEVE.pdf

I will leave it on my web server, so do what you want with it. I simply put the driver cut-outs as through holes on both layers of the front baffle, which in reality you wouldn't do, but since I didn't have enough info, I left it like that.
Scott,

Thanks again for all your work!

It looks to be the same doc as the old one? The mid/tweet area still shows as 7.5" deep vs. the actual 5.5". Would you mind figuring the air volume of the mid/tweet box? I think it should be something like .34-.36 cu/ft (I cannot remember by calcs off hand).

As far as weight, the cabinet as it sits today (with one side applied) weighes 32lbs. For individual weight, I do not know how much a 4x8 sheet weights. However, I did weigh some scraps this morning and came up with the following (as good as a bathroom scale could do of course) along with some basic math

1" x 1" x 3/8" bendable ply weighs approx .00565 lbs, so a 4x8 sheet ~ 26 lbs
1" x 1" x 3/4" Plywood weighs appox. .01472 lbs, so a 4x8 sheet ~ 68 lbs

My guess is these cabinets when complete will weigh about 50 lbs without the drivers and about 75-80 lbs with the drivers, XOs, veneer and feet installed.

swithey

11-22-06, 12:02 PM

How about the back? Just single wall? Probably won't flex too much as it's not very wide.
The back is a single 3/4" thickness -- so NO doubling up there.

SVonhof

11-22-06, 12:38 PM

Scott,

Thanks again for all your work!

It looks to be the same doc as the old one? The mid/tweet area still shows as 7.5" deep vs. the actual 5.5".

What are you talking about? You must be looking at the old PDF, not the new one I linked in my newer reply. :P (I edited my post to have the correct link, sorry)

The mid/tweeter sub-cabinet is 648 cubic inches.

SVonhof

11-22-06, 12:48 PM

BTW, I ran the numbers based on your measurements and came up with 41.3 lbs complete (no drivers, foam/wool).

swithey

11-22-06, 01:19 PM

What are you talking about? You must be looking at the old PDF, not the new one I linked in my newer reply. :P (I edited my post to have the correct link, sorry)

The mid/tweeter sub-cabinet is 648 cubic inches.
Scott,

Fantastic Job!! You must have has some quality idle time :D

It looks like my mid/tweet box may be a hair too large at .375 cu/ft. I think Rick was looking for something around .33 cu/ft. Hmm, I might have to reduce it a bit. I'll see what Rick has to say and I'll let everyone know.

bpape

11-22-06, 01:32 PM

Nothing you can't fix with a double back or an extra brace if needed.

Bryan

SVonhof

11-22-06, 01:32 PM

Remember that adding wool or foam will make the box think it is larger too...

swithey

11-22-06, 01:39 PM

Nothing you can't fix with a double back or an extra brace if needed.

Bryan
I'm on it :) Already suggested that to Rick. I'm waiting for his response.

swithey

11-22-06, 01:40 PM

Remember that adding wool or foam will make the box think it is larger too...
That was calculated in the original XO. I do not think this is a huge issue here but just wanted to be sure it was handled before I closed 'em up!

SVonhof

11-22-06, 01:59 PM

Nothing you can't fix with a double back or an extra brace if needed.

Bryan

Doing that will drop the size by about 91 cubic inches.

swithey

11-22-06, 11:31 PM

It looks like my mid/tweet box may be a hair too large at .375 cu/ft. I think Rick was looking for something around .33 cu/ft. Hmm, I might have to reduce it a bit. I'll see what Rick has to say and I'll let everyone know.
Just got a response back from Rick Craig of Selah Audio. He said because of the sealed sub enclosure and the XOs crossover point / slope, this will not effect the sound. So... no changes needed :)

chrisnoland

11-23-06, 05:57 PM

bpape

11-24-06, 07:54 AM

If my math is correct, that 91 cubic inches is about .05 cubic feet - just about right.

Bryan

swithey

11-24-06, 02:54 PM

Steve,

I have finally read all the way through this thread... and just wanted to say...nice work. I have some of the same "constraints" you have (EE by training)...not that this is a bad thing :p

The DIY speakers seem to be turning out really good, cannot wait to see the finished product.

For the HTPC have you thought about a BD or HD? Also I did not see what you used for IR receive (I think it was about 3 months back in the posts) :D

Thanks
Chris,

Glad you like the room. It has been a long (too long IMO) journey. Luckily, I'm still motivated to get it done.

For IR, I'm using the Xantec products. They work very well and are price nicely at THIS (http://www.worthdist.com/xantech/xantechir.htm) place. You'll need to call them to get a password to access the site. Anyone can get one -- just use your "work's" company name as your company and you are in business.

It may be all the turkey and honey-dos I'm trying to get done today, but what is BD and/or HD?

DLilley

11-25-06, 01:51 PM

I would venture a guess of Blu Ray or High Definition Disc as your dvd drive :)
Doug

DLilley

11-25-06, 01:56 PM

I would venture a guess of Blu Ray or High Definition Disc as your dvd drive :)
Doug

chrisnoland

11-25-06, 11:36 PM

SVonhof

11-26-06, 02:12 AM

chrisnoland

11-26-06, 11:55 AM

Scott,

The problem is encryption/copy protection (DRM). I am in Dallas with Verizon FIOS and have their DVR to record content. Theoretically I should be able to "play" the files out of the box via fire-wire to a PC or a HD VCR for long term storage. Verizon has enabled DRM on all of the channels except OTA (Broadcast) channels to "copy never"...so I cannot "transfer" files. Two possibilities are a component video capture card (expensive) or a PC with CableCard (not currently shipping in PC formats)

There are a few more options for Dish or Direct TV as I think they have PC receiver cards...but I am not a big fan since their compression is cranked way up so blowing up the picture to 70+ inches would not look very good :rolleyes:

Figure it is never as easy as it should be... :eek:

ebr

11-26-06, 12:08 PM

SVonhof

11-26-06, 01:24 PM

Chris, I am wondering about Verizon FIOS as it may be coming to my area soon. Can you PM me or e-mail me to let me know your thoughts on it and maybe price, so I can get an idea? I have been thinking of getting rid of DirecTV, since I am still using my 5+ year old receiver for HD and if I change services, I get a new one, preferably with a DVR....

I hear you guys about the compression. I understand why they are doing it, but it doesn't mean I have to like it. DirecTV has the MPEG4 going in my area, but I am not sure I want to make the transition, since I have to either buy the new equipment or lease it (from what I have heard). They should be replacing my box for free! :)

swithey

11-27-06, 05:45 AM

Steve,

Thanks for the info on the Ir products

As for the BD and HD comments...doug beat me to the punch... he is correct. BD = Blue Ray Disc (not sure why) and HD = HD-DVD

I plan to build a media server like you did so I can copy all of my DVD's to the RAID array I have and stream them to the "slim" HTPC. figured while I was at it I could get a HD version of DVD lined up also :eek:

The new HD/BD DVD drives are way expensive still and think I will wait about 8 months when a dual format drive or player comes out...IMOP content drives us, there is no way I am going to commit to only one standard unless movies come out on both.
Yes, I plan to wait for a "standard" or at least universal players myself (at a reasonable price). I definitely do not want to "re-buy" my DVD collection in a standard that may/may-not become the defacto standard -- which is very frustrating :mad: My HTPC can accommodate (2) DVD drives if I wanted to "add" a BD/HD to my mix in the future.

My RAID is working out perfectly. The only thing that I might change is my stipe size. I can choose 64KB or 128KB. According to the Asus manual, 128KB was better for video performance. However, personally I always used 64KB stripe size. However, this time I chose the larger stripe. I'm still thinking about a change before I really start to fill up the drive.

GUYS -- any recommendation on which RAID stripe size I should go with?

swithey

11-27-06, 06:05 AM

So, Chris and Steve, I know some people on here (SandmanX) have created Raid servers with all their movies on them. Do you guys know if anyone is also recording HD movies from Satelite/Cable and saving them on the hard drives to watch whenever? Basically like a DVR, but saving them as individual files for later viewing.
Scott,

Currently I am using Sage.TV (http://www.sage.tv/) and OTA for my high-def content. I have read about the compression challenges that the DirecTV and DishNetwork do with video content -- which is why I am waiting. I record everything in MPEG4 which nets out to about 8GB/Hr with HD content. However, Sage can record in about a dozen compression formats (and you can pick which format you want per show). They even offer a few higher compression ratios for MPEG4 -- but I have not tried those yet.

I will say HD content is just spectacular. I cannot tell the difference on my 9.5' wide screen when watching OTA no compression (NO PVR) and with compression (PVR - SageTV). That tells me that MPEG4 is not degrading the video (at least that I can notice).

Also, no DRMs Chris mentioned earlier since I am recording to my own PC -- but I'm limited to OTA content. I considered going with a HD Tivo (I have two SD Tivos right now and LOVE them). Neither of them are hooked up the in the media room since I have Sage in there. The issue is I watch so little TV these days. I've been focusing on movies for the moment -- wonder why :rolleyes:

swithey

11-27-06, 06:13 AM

Scott,

The problem is encryption/copy protection (DRM). I am in Dallas with Verizon FIOS and have their DVR to record content. If I could get FIOS where I live, I would. My neighborhood is a "pocket" of SBC surrounded by Verizon -- very frustrating! If I lived just 1-2 blocks east I could get FIOS :(

Figure it is never as easy as it should be... :eek: I hacked both my SD Tivos so I could pull off content. My guess is if you look hard enough, you might find someone that has figured out a way to remove the DRM. Nearly anything can be hacked but do you want to go through the 10 steps to get it done -- that's the hard part ;)

BoomerBrian

11-27-06, 08:53 AM

Scott,

Currently I am using Sage.TV (http://www.sage.tv/) and OTA for my high-def content. I have read about the compression challenges that the DirecTV and DishNetwork do with video content -- which is why I am waiting. I record everything in MPEG4 which nets out to about 8GB/Hr with HD content. However, Sage can record in about a dozen compression formats (and you can pick which format you want per show). They even offer a few higher compression ratios for MPEG4 -- but I have not tried those yet.

I will say HD content is just spectacular. I cannot tell the difference on my 9.5' wide screen when watching OTA no compression (NO PVR) and with compression (PVR - SageTV). That tells me that MPEG4 is not degrading the video (at least that I can notice).

Also, no DRMs Chris mentioned earlier since I am recording to my own PC -- but I'm limited to OTA content. I considered going with a HD Tivo (I have two SD Tivos right now and LOVE them). Neither of them are hooked up the in the media room since I have Sage in there. The issue is I watch so little TV these days. I've been focusing on movies for the moment -- wonder why :rolleyes:

I had DirectTV and was not impressed when watching on a PJ. There was alot of blocking due to the compression. I didn't have their HD but people refer to their standard as HD LITE. Doesn't look half as good as when I pull non HD OTA on the local digital channels.

swithey

11-27-06, 10:48 AM

I had DirectTV and was not impressed when watching on a PJ. There was alot of blocking due to the compression. I didn't have their HD but people refer to their standard as HD LITE. Doesn't look half as good as when I pull non HD OTA on the local digital channels.
I've "heard" that Dish is giving better quality (less noticeable compression) these days but no facts to back that up.

Mark P

11-27-06, 11:25 AM

Directv HD is outstanding from what I have noticed, HDNet, HDNET Movies, Universal HD, ESPN HD, FoxsportsHD and all the other look outstanding to me. I only use HBOHD during Sopronos runs and it looked great to me. HD-DVD via the $160 XBox360 USB HD-DVD drive looks spectacular, much better than a tweaked Theatertek. This is on a 3 chip DLP, not sure if that matters.

Winkelmann

11-28-06, 11:25 AM

Directv HD is outstanding from what I have noticed, HDNet

The only odd thing I've noticed about Directv HD is the volume between regular broad cast and HD; I really have to crank up the volume for HD, when using the built in speakers. This is especially annoying when a commercial comes on, during live broadcast. Also, when watching HD on local channels, the audio has audio sync issues from time to time.
Other than that, I like it a lot.

Winkelmann

bpape

12-02-06, 07:35 PM

Hey Steve...

Are you alive down there? Or did you get the speakers done and can't pull yourself out of the room long enough to jump on the forum ;)

Bryan

VorlonFog

12-02-06, 08:44 PM

He's been watching Mark's elliptical star ceiling. ;)

swithey

12-04-06, 03:44 PM

Okay Bryan -- here's an update :D

Things have been a bit busy at home with both my daughters BDays, T-Day and regular "get ready for Xmas" duties. However, with chaos comes thought (at least for my wife). She decided “we” wanted regular seating in the rear row vs. the bar stools. Funny thing is I suggested that in the beginning but she wanted nothing to do with that. I’m just happy it was “her” idea – you guys know how that goes!

Anyway, I now need a platform. I started design on it last week and decided to just “borrow” Ronnie Jackson’s design. It worked out perfectly (thanks Ronnie!!). I rented the HD truck on Friday and bought everything I needed. It was rather difficult to get some straight boards. I must have been there about 1.5 hours looking though the lumber to find the straight ones.

This platform is 6’6” deep x 12’3” wide x 12” tall. I built it out of 2x12s, 2x6s and ¾ plywood. The step is in the front left corner is set-in about 3” from the rear side to maximize the walk-way beside it. I plan to cut down the rear columns so they can sit up on top of the platform. This will be the 3rd time I’ve modified these columns – and hopefully the last! Please NOTE, I do not have the support beams installed at this time. They will be spaced out 12" on center. Once I get it up to the room, I’ll get those added before the top is permanently installed.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Platform-Topless.JPG

Here is the platform with the top installed. Even though the platform is not fully assembled, I needed to pin down the top so I could cut the plywood to size. This will eliminate any cutting/sawdust in the room. I still need to trim the edges with my skill saw and cut out the notch for the front stairs. I plan to do that tonight. Once I get that done, I will disassemble it and take it one piece at a time up to the media room to be re-assembled. It’s just too darn heavy and large to build and bring upstairs. Those 2x12s are back breakers.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Platform-Top1.JPG

Now – onto the fun part. We picked up the rear seating over the weekend. They are a chair from Pier1. They were/are are having sale and we got these chairs for a great price. The leather color is just about an exact match to the Natuzzi chairs we have in the front row (talk about lucky). The are a different style but we feel they compliment the fronts quite well. I may change out the feet to more closely match front chair style. And again – no cupholders but I have something planned with that. This was a compromise I made for the room seating “style” to keep the wife happy. Oh – and yes, the tags are still on the Natuzzi chairs. I just have not had the time to cut them off yet. I have about 2.5' of walkway in front of the rear chairs. Its works out well since these chairs do not recline. They are not quite as comfortable as the fronts but still feel great even after sitting in them after 2 hours. AND, the kids are excited to sit in them because they will be higher than the fronts -- which is fine with me :D
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Rear Seating4.JPG
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Rear Seating1.JPG
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Rear Seating3.JPG

Speakers – well, I cannot time-slice as well as my PC so they are next on the list. We have an event this weekend and having the seating was more important than the speakers. The felt finally came in last Wed so I can soon resume on those. The remaining build on them should go rather quickly. I’m hoping to get them functional very soon after the platform is complete.

bborzell

12-04-06, 07:34 PM

swithey

12-05-06, 10:38 AM

Steve...

I just discovered your thread. I was searching for seating threads through google and used Natuzzi as one of the search terms. As it turned out, I not only found your thread relative to Natuzzi (we have two Natuzzi sofas), but I also lucked out in that your room appears to be the same size as mine (14.5 X 17.5 ft. =/-).

My question has to do with the size of the chairs you bought. Are the seat cushions 22" or wider? The arms appear to be about 6" or so which would total 136" if they were squeezed together.

Is that about what you are working with? My media room doubles (triples) as a music room (desktop recording equipment, instruments and amplifiers) and office. As such, getting four comfortable individual chairs to fit in without backing into a keyboard or mandolin is going to require some careful planning and purchase.

I am assuming that the chairs you bought both recline and offer sufficient lumbar support to make it through a full length film with no adverse back effects. Our experience with the Natuzzi sofas has been very positive.

Any gems of wisdom on both size, comfort, placement or pricing (my local Natuzzi dealer just closed his doors after 50 years to retire) would be appreciated.

...Bob
Bob,

I found the cut sheet for the chair and added some measurements on there for you. I did them quickly this morning so they may not be exact but should be very close.

The width of 135/136" is about right if you have them about 1" apart in a straight line. I wanted to curve them slightly but that took a few more precious inches I could not give up. I do have 9" deep columns on each size that take up space as well. If you do not plan on side columns, (4) would fit without any issue and you would have a wider isle on one side. My isle is about 2' wide.

The comfort of these chairs is outstanding. After 3 hours, you back and butt feel no sign of discomfort. I do not notice myself having to make adjustment during the movie except to bend or stretch my my legs. The leather is baby soft. We opted for a leather style that had stain protection. BUT -- we are very careful not to let the kids on them when they have food or drink.

One gripe I have with the chairs is the depth of the reclined footrest could be a little deeper. I'm 5'8" and my ankles and feet just barely hang off the end. Not too bad for me but for 6'+ person, their feet will hang off more. Remember those Italians (and I'm one of them) are shorter people :D Another gripe is no cupholders. I plan to build some myself. I have a few ideas but need to build a some prototypes before I make the final decision. Natuzzi does sell "actual" Media seating with motorized recline, message and cup holders. However get ready to raid your 401K for these because (4) of them will set you back about 15k :eek: They are nice but just little more money than I wanted to spend.

As far as pricing, they were offering a 20% discount on everything in the store. They had it last year a this time when I bought mine and I heard they have it again this year (but not sure if it is still on). If you want/need a Dallas sales contact, let me know and I'll pass that along.

Overall, we just love them.

http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Natuzzi Chair2a.JPG

ejhuzy

12-05-06, 11:55 AM

Steve,

How close is your front row and how big did your screen end up being? I know you switched to 2.35.

Thanks
Ed

swithey

12-05-06, 12:18 PM

Steve,

How close is your front row and how big did your screen end up being? I know you switched to 2.35.

Thanks
Ed
Ed,

Once I get the platform installed, the front seating will be about 11' 6" from eyeball to the front of the screen (about 1.2x screen width). My screen is 9.5' wide. With my 720p DLP projector (Infocus IN76), I can barely make out the SDE on really white images. I see nothing on other colors. I've asked guests if they can see it and they cannot. Guess I'm just looking for it.

ifeliciano

12-05-06, 12:30 PM

My screen is 9.5' wide.

Nice !!! ;)

miltimj

12-05-06, 01:15 PM

Is that SDE you mention using an anamorphic lens?

swithey

12-05-06, 01:22 PM

Is that SDE you mention using an anamorphic lens?
Yes. But is only very slight. You really have to be looking for it. I'm sure you CRT guys would notice it in a second ;) (yes, bpape -- I'm talking about you :D )

BTW Tim -- do you get any leave for Xmas to see your family? I know you are chomping at the bit to get home and start on your HT as well!

miltimj

12-05-06, 01:47 PM

Nope, but got to come home for late-Sept/early-Oct, so that was fun. Only a few more months... We're "looking" at houses right now, actually..

SVonhof

12-05-06, 09:24 PM

Steve, if my wife and I ever make it out to Flower Mound, Texas to visit our friends, I will have to make sure to give you a call to see if you are 1) done with your theater and 2) around so I can come on over! :) I can bring beer. http://www.golfdiscussions.com/yabbse/Smileys//default/tequila.gif http://www.mixography.com/ride/forum/images/smiles/icon_twobeers.gif

bpape

12-06-06, 07:10 AM

Sufficient amounts of beer will fix any SDE issues :D

Bryan

swithey

12-06-06, 02:46 PM

I will have to make sure to give you a call to see if you are 1) done with your theater.
Not sure if I'll ever be done :rolleyes: If I could just send the wife and kids to her parents for a week or so -- I'd get so much more accomplished. :D

Last night I got nothing done -- just ran out of gas. I think I was in bed by 9:30pm. I guess staying up until 2am (2) nights in a row just wore me out.

I feel re-energized today. Tonight, I plan to start cutting the carpet in the room to make room for the platform. Then I can start hauling up all those boards upstairs. Assembly should go rather quickly since I'm pre-drilling everything in the garage.

swithey

12-06-06, 02:52 PM

Sufficient amounts of beer will fix any SDE issues :D

Bryan
Beer + watching Pink Floyd The Wall (The Film) (http://www.amazon.com/Pink-Floyd-Wall-Bob-Geldof/dp/6305603847/sr=1-9/qid=1165434536/ref=sr_1_9/102-6278100-5504168?ie=UTF8&s=dvd) and you just won't care :D

MikeN

12-07-06, 10:43 PM

swithey

12-07-06, 10:57 PM

I saw that you got your Fiber Optic Illuminator here: http://www.fiberopticproducts.com/Lightunits.htm

However, I don't see one like the one you get, let alone at that price point. Am I missing it? Help please! :)

Also.. do you have a new picture (or more) of the ceiling with your "box" mounted / finished?
Looks like they stopped carrying that unit. The replacement looks to be FOPHR-100 -- which is out of stock until next year (and it cost about $30 more :( )

I have not completed the star ceiling yet, unfortunately. In fact, I have not purchased the light box or fiberoptics either. Many other items for the HT have taken precedence but I plan to get to it early next year.

As far as mounting the unit, I plan to put the box in the attic above the room (and string the fiber through a small hole). When I talked with fiberopticproducts on the phone, they said the Texas heat would not cause any issues and people do it all the time. This will get the noisy unit out of the room as well as any heat it generates.

MikeN

12-08-06, 12:14 AM

Interesting.. I thought the light boxes needed a lot of air flow. Definately would think mounting in our TX attics would be an issue ;)

swithey

12-10-06, 11:31 PM

Platform Update...

With David's help, we were able to get the platform completed by 1AM last night. Thanks again David!

Here is the platform filled with insulation just before we put the plywood on top.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Platform-Insulation.JPG

Here are all the chairs back in place with the rears on the platform. The rear columns (temporarily removed) will now sit on the platform. This means I need to cut them down about 12".
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Room Rear1a.jpg

AND -- once I get those column cut down, I'll get back to those darn speakers!! I plan to get those things functional very soon :)

VorlonFog

12-11-06, 05:55 AM

Maybe it's just me, but one of those chairs looks like it's been extremely comfortable for someone.... ;)

SVonhof

12-11-06, 09:20 AM

Maybe it's just me, but one of those chairs looks like it's been extremely comfortable for someone.... ;)

That must be Steve's "sweet spot". If you see current pictures of my theater, you will see the same thing, although last year, I did swap two of the loveseats so that I could start to wear one of the other seating positions! :rolleyes:

swithey

12-11-06, 09:35 AM

Maybe it's just me, but one of those chairs looks like it's been extremely comfortable for someone.... ;)
Yep - that's the Money Seat! It's just about in the perfect center of the room. My wife always sits to my left. With the new seats in active duty, the kids prefer to sit in the rear row. Works for me.

NOTE: Not sure if anyone noticed, but I took all the tags and plastic protectors off the chairs. I guess taking them back is now out of the question ;)

swithey

12-11-06, 09:40 AM

That must be Steve's "sweet spot". If you see current pictures of my theater, you will see the same thing, although last year, I did swap two of the loveseats so that I could start to wear one of the other seating positions! :rolleyes:
Not a bad idea! I'll plan on a yearly rotation :)

We also plan to change out the carpet Q1 '07 which will be great. Surprisingly, I've had no adverse reflection issues with the lighter color.

accts4mjs

12-11-06, 11:14 AM

Looks sweet Steve! You're really starting to get there. I can tell by your seat wear that like me you're finding it hard to spend time working on the room rather than enjoying it ;)

Mike

swithey

12-11-06, 11:56 AM

Looks sweet Steve! You're really starting to get there. I can tell by your seat wear that like me you're finding it hard to spend time working on the room rather than enjoying it ;)

Mike
Thanks Mike. Honestly, I have not spent that much time watching movies/TV in the room. I'm trying to stay focused to get a few more "important" items completed before my family comes over for Xmas.

- Rear Column cut-down (completed Wed/Thur eve)
- Front Speakers (completed this weekend)
- IB Sub (needs to be done by the end of next week but we'll see what happens)

After I complete those items, it will be hard NOT to watch movies all the time :D I plan to watch Superman Returns over the Xmas holiday. Should be pretty exciting with all the speakers and sub in place. I've heard the bass in this movie is awesome!

swithey

12-13-06, 02:05 AM

DIY Speaker Update…

I decided to get the felt cut tonight. This stuff is really thick (3/8”) and heavy (3 yards x 61” wide was about 30lbs).

Here is the raw roll.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Felt-OnRoll1.JPG

Here is a close-up of the thickness of the felt.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Felt-CloseUp.JPG

Here are all the pieces cut up and ready to be installed in the speaker cabinet. A sharp blade and a straight edge was all that was needed to cut this stuff. It was easy work but just a little time consuming. It took me about 2 1/2 hours to get all the pieces cut. If you look at the top, I don’t have much left over (and I had very little waste). I probably used about 95% of the 3 yards. Alll the little pieces of paper are labels so I know where the felt goes. There are just too many pieces to keep them straight in my head.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Felt-AllCut1.JPG
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Felt-AllCut2.JPG

More soon.

v1rtu0s1ty

12-13-06, 02:10 AM

swithey

12-13-06, 02:21 AM

And on a sad note... "The Thinking Chair" was sold tonight :( It was hard to part with such an important item in my HT build process ;) I put it up on Craigslist tonight and a guy came and picked it up about an hour later. That was one of the fastest sales I ever made. I had about 4 other people in line to buy it if this guy decided not to purchase the chair.

http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/thinkingchair.jpg

swithey

12-13-06, 08:26 AM

Quick question , do we need to nail down the platform/risers/stages to the concrete floor?
I did not attached mine to the floor. Gravity is the only thing holding it in place -- and with it's weight it is not going anywhere. I have seen others put roofing felt between the concrete and pressure treated lumber to help with moisture. Maybe one of our basement builders can ring in with more info?

SVonhof

12-13-06, 09:00 AM

http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/thinkingchair.jpg

R.I.P. Thinking Chair.

BTW, Craigslist is amazing when it works, isn't it?!

Mark P

12-13-06, 09:18 AM

DIY Speaker Update…

I decided to get the felt cut tonight. This stuff is really thick (3/8”) and heavy (3 yards x 61” wide was about 30lbs).

Here are all the pieces cut up and ready to be installed in the speaker cabinet. A sharp blade and a straight edge was all that was needed to cut this stuff. It was easy work but just a little time consuming. It took me about 2 1/2 hours to get all the pieces cut. If you look at the top, I don’t have much left over (and I had very little waste). I probably used about 95% of the 3 yards. Alll the little pieces of paper are labels so I know where the felt goes. There are just too many pieces to keep them straight in my head.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Felt-AllCut1.JPG
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Felt-AllCut2.JPG

More soon.Thank you, now I can quit badgering you and will go away. This is one of those things in life where you will never know if spending the money on it was worth it but this is probably the most noticable improvement you can do as far as sound quality. If you had not done this, when you rap your knuckles on the sides in the middle of the bracing you would have heard the hollow thunk resonating. It will now sound like youre doing it to solid granite.

You say yours was easy to cut, did you have to change blades often? your stuff appears really light colored compared to what I use, was this needled or pressed?

Mark P

12-13-06, 09:24 AM

Quick question , do we need to nail down the platform/risers/stages to the concrete floor?Actually I think youre suppossed to isolate stages and risers from What I have heard, maybe Bpape can explain why. Swithey could have used his left over felt cut in strips for this. Thats actually what the felt was designed for ( between saddles and horses, isolation pads for big vibrating machinery in buildings)

Winkelmann

12-13-06, 07:15 PM

I did not attached mine to the floor. Gravity is the only thing holding it in place -- and with it's weight it is not going anywhere. I have seen others put roofing felt between the concrete and pressure treated lumber to help with moisture. Maybe one of our basement builders can ring in with more info?

You are correct sir!
In Atlanta we use treated lumber and felt - or if you like to impress people with the vast sums of money you can burn - buy products with "Home Theater" or "Acoustic" in their product description.

My stage from bottom to top: felt, lumber (2x10), plastic, sand, felt, 3/4" T & G OSB, felt, 1/2" ply, felt, and 3/4" ply.

My riser is the same, except they're filled with insulation, instead of sand. And you can skip the plastic too.

swithey

12-14-06, 12:26 AM

DIY Speaker Update…

If you haven’t already figured it out – I decided to work on the speakers before I cut down the rear columns. Honestly, I’m tired of looked at them in the garage and want to get them done.

I took the day off from work today to do some honey-dos and work on the speakers. I was able to felt (2) of the (3) speakers. It’s easy to do but just a little time consuming. I attached the felt with 3M 77 spray glue and it worked great. Just make sure you coat both the wood and the felt with the glue for a good strong bond.

Here are the speakers as the look today.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Felt-2felted.JPG

Here is a close-up up the mid/tweet box.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Felt-MidTweetBox.JPG

I have something going on tomorrow eve but Friday eve is looking like I should be able to get more done :)

SVonhof

12-14-06, 08:40 AM

Steve, amazing how much time all this DIY stuff takes huh?!

Looking good.

coctostan

12-14-06, 08:57 AM

Steve-

I can't imagine a commercial outfit doing a better job constructing those speakers. I love the perfectly placed felt.

Definitely chime back in with your listening impressions when you are done.

Max

Winkelmann

12-14-06, 09:18 AM

Man, those cabinets look great! I didn't realize they were so tall, can't wait to see the finished product.

accts4mjs

12-14-06, 10:35 AM

SVonhof

12-14-06, 10:48 AM

swithey

12-14-06, 03:04 PM

Thank you, now I can quit badgering you and will go away. This is one of those things in life where you will never know if spending the money on it was worth it but this is probably the most noticable improvement you can do as far as sound quality. If you had not done this, when you rap your knuckles on the sides in the middle of the bracing you would have heard the hollow thunk resonating. It will now sound like youre doing it to solid granite.

You say yours was easy to cut, did you have to change blades often? your stuff appears really light colored compared to what I use, was this needled or pressed?
Pester away. Sometimes thats what it takes to help me make a decision :) They do have a deeper ring when you wrap on them now.

It did take about 2-3 passes to get through it when the blade was brand new. As it dulled, it turned into 3-4 passes. I did have to change blades pretty often. I probably went through 3 bladed (6 cutting edges) to get that all cut. I did indeed purchase the Pressed Wool Felt (http://www.sutherlandfelt.com/pressed.htm). It's a dark gray color but appears lighter in the pics.

swithey

12-14-06, 03:09 PM

Steve, amazing how much time all this DIY stuff takes huh?!

Looking good.
Yes sir!

swithey

12-14-06, 03:10 PM

swithey

12-14-06, 03:16 PM

Man, those cabinets look great! I didn't realize they were so tall, can't wait to see the finished product.
Yes, they are 42" tall. Hopefully I'll be able to put the "DONE" stamp on them by early next week so I can move onto the IB sub.

BritInVA

12-14-06, 03:19 PM

Hmmmm.....wonder if this another IB sub that can only be used when the wife is out :eek:

Can't wait to see the finished speakers.

Cheers,
Mark

swithey

12-14-06, 03:35 PM

Steve, those speakers are looking amazing. I read your post about taking 2-1/2 hours to just cut felt and I totally hear ya. Last night I wanted to install some recessed light cans in my ceiling (finally) and cut the hole about 1/4" too small and I was just beside myself knowing how much work was now ahead of me to try cutting the rest out by hand (I have a circle cutter that I set too small, you can't recut a hole with it and I don't have a roto-zip or anything). Wish I had known where the lights were going to go before I painted because this would have been so much easier then! I just stared at the hole knowing that I had another hour or two worth of work ahead of me because of a stupid mistake. Ugh.

Anyway, back to you (sorry about that) -- my only regret on your speakers is that I can't be there to listen to them when you've got them all setup and broken in. I bet they'll be AMAZING!! Mega jealous.

Mike
Mike,

I feel your pain. I won't even begin to tell you about the handful of things I had to adjust/re-do because of an error like that. We've all done it and it is frustrating for everyone :)

When I was building the platform, I made it 3" too wide. I showed my wife where it was going to end in the room and she wanted that 3" back (because it was next to the entry door). I had to cut down (2) of the 2x12s, re-drill and screw. Luckily this was in the garage. I've learned to "show" my wife something before I get to the finished product to keep the "re-do" time to a minimum.

On the speakers - I'm damn anxious to hear them as well. My Dad is waiting for me to finished them before he comes over to see a movie in the room. He is holding MI3 hostage until then :)

swithey

12-14-06, 03:39 PM

R.I.P. Thinking Chair.

BTW, Craigslist is amazing when it works, isn't it?!
Yes -- perfect for items too large to ship economically! I've sold a number of furniture pieces in a matter of days through Craigslist.

swithey

12-14-06, 04:23 PM

Hmmmm.....wonder if this another IB sub that can only be used when the wife is out :eek:

Can't wait to see the finished speakers.

Cheers,
Mark
It will be the "only" sub in the room so I may be stuck. I plan to have a few presets on the Pioneer AVR that will have a different sub levels to accommodate "Day/Calibrated", "Night/low" and "Home Alone/Heart Attach" viewings :D

ifeliciano

12-14-06, 04:47 PM

Steve,

The speakers are looking amazing. I've been setback on the speaker build again. My boy needs a computer desk/study area built. I might hire you to help me out :D

swithey

12-14-06, 06:15 PM

Steve,

The speakers are looking amazing. I've been setback on the speaker build again. My boy needs a computer desk/study area built. I might hire you to help me out :D
As long as you help me build (2) new scallop front vanities (with plexi tops) and matching chairs before Xmas ;) :D Looks like we'll both be busy!

And please post pics of the desk/study area. I'll need to build one of those next year.

ifeliciano

12-14-06, 07:12 PM

As long as you help me build (2) new scallop front vanities (with plexi tops) and matching chairs before Xmas ;) :D

You think we can finish it in a day ? ;)

And please post pics of the desk/study area. I'll need to build one of those next year.

It going to look somewhat like this one, but with an extra shelf.

http://images.rockler.com/rockler/images/52148a-lg.jpg

MikeN

12-14-06, 07:54 PM

Steve... did you find a good (good priced!) local supplier for Linacoustic, etc? If so, care to share? :)

swithey

12-15-06, 09:27 AM

You think we can finish it in a day ? ;) Yep -- I should be able to complete them in about a day. My wife is planning to cover them with a skirted material -- so no painting :)

It going to look somewhat like this one, but with an extra shelf.
http://images.rockler.com/rockler/images/52148a-lg.jpg That's going to take some time to build. Are you planning to use stain or paint grade material? What kind of wood?

ifeliciano

12-15-06, 12:52 PM

Yep -- I should be able to complete them in about a day. My wife is planning to cover them with a skirted material -- so no painting :)

That's going to take some time to build. Are you planning to use stain or paint grade material? What kind of wood?

Birch hardwood and Birch plywood, natural color to match my son's dresser and bed. Should take me two to three weeks depending how much time I put in it on any given day. Im on vacation starting monday Dec 18 until Jan 5. With family coming and going I'll see how much I get done.

bpape

12-15-06, 01:39 PM

BritInVA

12-15-06, 02:06 PM

I bet he is probably already using his Bose in the room :D , may explain why that seat looks worn (too much fidgeting with the wailing of the Bose :eek: )

swithey

12-15-06, 02:24 PM

Looking good Steve. When you get them in place, play them low for a few hours just to get things warmed up and broken in a little bit (and ignore them so you can keep working :D ) The nice thing now is that you can be listening to music while you're finising up the room.

Bryan
Thanks Bryan. I plan to get the felt installed in the 3rd cabinet tonight. Maybe I'll get one of them fully closed up as well. I also want to dry-fit the XOs and pre-drill some holes to make it easier to attach them after the cabinets are fully assembled.

swithey

12-15-06, 02:31 PM

I bet he is probably already using his Bose in the room :D , may explain why that seat looks worn (too much fidgeting with the wailing of the Bose :eek: )
Unfortunately, you are right :o Just take a look at this 3 1/4" tall monster. It has FOUR (count 'em) 2 1/2" drivers in it. Talk about thumping out that center channel content :D

http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/products/2000/018/h018VCS10.jpeg

Winkelmann

12-15-06, 03:23 PM

Unfortunately, you are right :o Just take a look at this 3 1/4" tall monster. It has FOUR (count 'em) 2 1/2" drivers in it. Talk about thumping out that center channel content :D

http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/products/2000/018/h018VCS10.jpeg

Ow, my ears are already ringing. :(

swithey

12-17-06, 02:44 AM

DIY Speaker Update…

Finally got some time to work on the speakers tonight. I was able to get the felt finished and attach both layers of the left side of all (3) speakers this eve. I’m very happy with my progress tonight – which is normally not the case :rolleyes:

Attaching the felt to the left side of each speaker required a bit of careful planning. As youc can see from the picture below, I had to attach the felt to the side piece of the speaker BEFORE I attached it to the side of the actual speaker frame. I had (2) things working against me on this one – aligning the felt so it would fit properly and dealing with the curve (and the alignment of that and the felt). The 1st speaker I did was a royal PITA. It took me about 45 minutes to complete. Speakers 2 and 3 took about 20 minutes each. The trick was to trim the felt down a little more (~1/8”) so it fit loosely vs. tight as a drum. That gave me some wiggle room to get the side aligned.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Felt-FinalSide.JPG

Here are some quick pics on how I attached the left side of each speaker

Here is the speaker with a single side attached. I used Gorilla Glue and 1.25” brads to attach it to the frame.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/LCR-AttachSide1.JPG

I wanted the bond between the (2) layers of 3/8” bendable plywood to be as strong as possible and act as a single piece. I took some extra time and with a 3” putty knife spread all the glue over the entire speaker surface. It was also helpful to fill in any small voids in the wood. I used ProBond II wood glue.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/LCR-AttachSide2.JPG

After that, I aligned the top piece and used a low-tech way of bending the plywood close to the frame.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/LCR-AttachSide3.JPG

I then went around with more 1.25” brads and secured it to the frame.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/LCR-AttachSide4.JPG

And here are the speakers with both sides attached. I still need to use my router to trim off the excess overhang. I just did not think making that much noise at 1AM was going to win me any friends in the neighborhood.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/LCR-BothSidesOn.JPG

I plan to get the routing finished tomorrow and get the outside layer of the front baffle attached and timmed down. Hopefully I'll get the XOs and drivers installed on Monday.

chrisnoland

12-17-06, 11:26 AM

Steve,

Looking good.... I get inspired to make some myself and my wife quickly reminds that I don't have time :D

Keep up the good work :eek:

accts4mjs

12-17-06, 12:45 PM

Steve, once again, great work on those speakers!

Mike

swithey

12-17-06, 07:02 PM

Steve,

Looking good.... I get inspired to make some myself and my wife quickly reminds that I don't have time :D

Keep up the good work :eek:
You don't know how many projects have been put on hold because of the time I've invested in the HT. Luckily, since the room is now functional, she really enjoys it and wants me to get the rest of done (mainly the wet bar :rolleyes: ).

bpape

12-17-06, 07:04 PM

It's certainly an investment when you DIY a room, much less when you do the detail you're doing - not to mention DIYing speakers too. When it's all finished, you'll have a place that you can enjoy forever. Glad the significant other is enjoying it too - that's always a plus!

Bryan

swithey

12-17-06, 07:09 PM

Steve, once again, great work on those speakers!

Mike
Oh, just wait! All I can say is Mama is in labor about to give birth sometime tonight :D

swithey

12-18-06, 02:17 AM

We had triplets :D

Born: 12/18/06
Time: 12:15am
Weight: 52 ½ lbs
Length: 43 ½”

http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/LCR-Assembled.JPG

I plan to fill holes and sand tomorrow eve. Wed I'll get the drivers installed. I need to fit in the dual vanity build before XMas and fear the wife will put that in front of the speakers.

swithey

12-18-06, 02:23 AM

bpape

12-18-06, 07:19 AM

Schweeeeet! Now all ya have to do is spank 'em. :D

I know what you mean about the staying. This is the first house I've lived in that I actually got to enjoy the changes I made. Most of the others, as soon as I finished redoing things, we ended up selling it and moving.

Bryan

SVonhof

12-18-06, 09:02 AM

This is the first house I've lived in that I actually got to enjoy the changes I made. Most of the others, as soon as I finished redoing things, we ended up selling it and moving.

Bryan

Bryan, are you related in any way to ebr (Eric)? I only ask since I have enjoyed what he has done on each of his theaters (three right now). He finishes one, enjoys it for a year or so and ends up moving and having to start over.

Steve, they look good so far! I am not sure I can see the resemblance to daddy though. Sure the milkman or postman didn't come over? :D :eek:

bpape

12-18-06, 10:10 AM

Nah - just did the design work for his (until he cut holes for the IB sub...)

It's always been a move for work - nothing I really wanted to do. Now I'm back in the Midwest where I prefer to be. Probably 2-3 more years and we'll sell this house and (hopefully) build our last one. One kid in her last semester of college - getting married next June. The other one is a Soph. Figure we'll give them a familiar place to call home until they're both out of school.

Next house will be MY design and likely a ranch for our old age. The music room/home theater room will be on the main floor with 10' ceilings, no )$(#*%& posts or ductwork/pipes to deal with, etc.

Bryan

swithey

12-19-06, 04:43 PM

Quick Update...

The speakers are all sanded down and I punched pilot holes for the driver screws. I plan to get them assembled tomorrow eve and maybe get in a little listening time before I fall over from exhaustion.

Zinema

12-20-06, 06:44 PM

swithey

12-21-06, 02:21 AM

I have 2 out of 3 completed. They are wired up and throwing out sound on all drivers. No critique on them yet because I'm just too tired. I'll give them another listen tomorrow eve. The weight of these things with the drivers installed is unbelievable. I'm glad I decided to assemble them in the HT :D

http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/LCR-DriversInstalled1.JPG http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/LCR-DriversInstalled2.JPG

cburbs

12-21-06, 07:48 AM

Steve,
Wonderful job - enjoying this thread for sure. Keep up the excellent work.

SVonhof

12-21-06, 08:35 AM

So, I don't remember, are you going to leave them raw like that and maybe apply a finish later if you decide to put them into a different environment where they will show?

Looks great.

bpape

12-21-06, 09:33 AM

swithey

12-21-06, 09:50 AM

Steve,
Wonderful job - enjoying this thread for sure. Keep up the excellent work.
Thanks. I checked out your HT -- looks great. I wish I had everything checked off my "to do list" like you have!! How comfortable are your authentic movie seats?

swithey

12-21-06, 09:53 AM

So, I don't remember, are you going to leave them raw like that and maybe apply a finish later if you decide to put them into a different environment where they will show?

Looks great.
Raw for now until I get more done on the room. But I do plan to get them veneered and stained (even if they will be hidden). I'm worried if I don't do it "relatively" soon, I'll never get it done.

swithey

12-21-06, 09:58 AM

Lookin good. I bet they are seriously heavy. Don't wanna carry those up the stairs? ;)

Let em play all day to loosen things up a bit in the woofer surrounds. Will be waiting for your review tonight/tomorrow.

Good job.

Bryan
They actually ran all night with some classical music at a low level. I'll put a scale on them tonight but my guess is they will weigh in around 74/75 lbs.

Yes, I do plan to listen to them tonight.

swithey

12-21-06, 10:09 AM

Didn't have time to read your thread in the past 3 weeks...but did now....very nice progress - congratulations on your triplets! :D

Beside the felt, what else are you putting inside the speakers?

BTW: It's Coke :D
I will be using fluffy pink stuff (standard insulation) in the woofer section and polyfil in the mid/tweet section. I will eventually replace the poly with Acousta-Stuff which is suppose to be better (I just forgot to get that ordered).

The hard part right now is figuring out how much I need. I just added enough to taste last night and will probably need to tweak it once I get few good listenings in. ThomasW over at HTGuide.com said because I added the felt, I would need far less absorbtion inside the speaker. I took that into account when I added material last night.

For all you guys that don't understand the "Coke" line, check out this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9169138&&#post9169138) post :D BTW, I prefer Coke as well :p

swithey

12-22-06, 04:43 PM

A Brief Speaker Review

I know you guys have been waiting for a review on these speakers, so here is a review. I still need to get the right amount of stuffing inside them (and that will take a little more listening trial and error time) to tune them a bit more – but here we go…

The first thing I did was to try and position the speakers so the toe-in was optimal for my seated position. Rick of Selah Audio really tries to optimize his speakers to have a flat response on and off-axis – so it was difficult to find the perfect “sweet” spot since most angles sounded good. I do want to work on that more but did not want to waste all my listening time messing with it. The speakers were probably 10’ from my listening position and just under 2’ from the rear and side walls. Volume level on my Pioneer Elite AVR was at -25 which was a moderate listening level.

I wanted to rule out as much AVR processing as possible, so I used Pure Direct mode. This mode pushes the full frequency range to both speakers, uses little or no signal processing and turns off the sub channel. I figured since I have floorstanders now, let’s see what they can do in a perfect 2-channel setup. I pulled out my “test” CD that I used for over a year to demo about a dozen different speakers. Since I have listened to this CD so many times, I've gotten very comfortable with the sound that I like from each of these songs. Personally, I’m very sensitive to certain high notes so a smooth tweet (which these speakers have) is a requirement for me. Ok.. OK! I’ll get onto the review :D

My initial impression was that the speakers were not opening up as much as I thought they would. However, the more I listened to them, the more and more I noticed how rich and full they sounded. They had a smooth upper range and balanced mid-range. The low freq was not as strong as I had expected (but I’m a bass nut). However, after turning the volume up a bit, the bass came alive and filed the room. It was smooth and mixed well with the mid/tweet sounds. One thing that I will mention is I heard detail in all the songs listed below that I never heard before.

Norah Jones – Don’t Know Why (Audio Sample (http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B00005YW4H001001/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_001/102-6278100-5504168)).
I think this is a great song to test the highs because Norah’s voice is always jumping up quickly to high notes. This is where the SEAS soft-dome tweet sings. Her voice was smooth and the highs were very nice. You could hear each breath and the richness of her voice.

Dire Straits – Private Investigations (Audio Sample (http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B00000DGUY001005/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_005/102-6278100-5504168))
Bryan Pape/bpape touts this song as a song that separates the men from the boys – and that it does. This song has a bunch of electrical string that plays some high notes as well as some high and fast pitched percussion. Are the towers up to the task? Now after a few mores hours of listening, I feel these spreakers do rather well with this difficult song. I believe Bryan would be satisfied with these towers :)

Eric Clapton – Tears In Heaven (Audio Sample (http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B00001U03Q001004/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_004/102-6278100-5504168))
This song demands a 2-channel setup. I love bass but this song has a constant bass hit that just vibrates too much when using a sub (and it becomes distracting). In 2-channel, the bass was perfect. The plucking of the guitar strings was life-like and pleasant. I think this song was from a live performance and it sounded like you were actually there sitting 10 feet from his guitar.

Eagles – Hotel California DTS 5.1 (Audio Sample (http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B000002GVO001001/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_001/102-6278100-5504168))
I know this is not for you hard-core audiophiles but I pulled out a DTS version of this song. Even though DTS is a lossy compression, I just had to listen to it in a superior environment. I was not disappointed and must say the enveloped sound all around the room was outstanding. The bass hit strong and crisp. If you like the Eagles, this is a great multi-channel recording.

Overall – I am VERY pleased with the speakers so far. Rick of Selah audio did his homework on this speaker's XO design. I'd build them again in a heartbeat!

And before I forget, everyone have a Happy Festivus (http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/festivus.wav) Holiday :)

Mark P

12-23-06, 02:52 AM

They dont break in, you do. Im not a fan of sealed, I built 1 pair 1 time and too me they were bright and lacked decent bass. When I built the same cabinet in a downfiring transmission line, the speaker came alive. Get your subwoofer done and see what you think. Its a good thing youre hearing details youve never heard before, this is fantastic when listening to well recorded music but can be disasterous when listening to badly recorded material.

Play some good Jazz, the kind thats not too painful to your brain if your not a jazz fan and see how they sound. I find myself playing alot more of this these days when puttering around because its usually so well recorded. If you have any Dave Matthews, it should sound pretty good as well. Also Try some soundtracks.

VorlonFog

12-23-06, 09:04 AM

I'd recommend Miles Davis - Kind of Blue (http://www.amazon.com/Kind-Blue-Miles-Davis/dp/B000002ADT/sr=8-1/qid=1166882209/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-2319048-2747116?ie=UTF8&s=music) if you REALLY like jazz...

SVonhof

12-23-06, 11:25 AM

Just about any Diana Krall CD is good for listening to the fine details a speaker can produce.

cburbs

12-23-06, 11:28 AM

Thanks. I checked out your HT -- looks great. I wish I had everything checked off my "to do list" like you have!! How comfortable are your authentic movie seats?

Thanks.....it isn't completely done there are small things to do that are not on that list.
I want to put up some type of black curtain to seperate my rooms..
I need to debate on if I want to keep the doors white or not?
Eventually I hope to make some DIY acoustic panels.

The seats are fine for me. Not comfy like berklines but hey I got them for free so I can't complain.

cburbs

12-23-06, 11:29 AM

Oh can't wait to see the final setup....

Toxarch

12-23-06, 01:14 PM

Steve, looks great. If you don't like the speakers, you can give them to me. I have a place to put them.

I'll be in Plano on the 24th and would offer to stop by and help you with something, but I'll be with family and you probably don't want to work on the theater on the 24th. Either that, or you are like me and would rather work on the theater but can't. Maybe I can help out another time.

swithey

12-23-06, 03:09 PM

Speaker Review Updated 12/23/06
-----------------------
Now that I have about 20 more hours of time on the speakers and a few good nights of sleep, the things that were bothering me about the speakers have completely gone away. I had mentioned earlier that when I was tired or fatigued, my ears were more sensitive than normal. I re-listened to all the music listed above and those sharp highs have magically disappeared. With that said, I am extremely satisfied with quality of sound from these speakers. Everything is as smooth as silk (even bpapes Dire Straits ball buster did outstandingly-- I think the boys voice has changed and he has entered manhood :)). I'm probably the one that had to be broke-in not the speakers (just like MarkP mentioned) -- but in any event, I recommend this design for anyone that wants a smooth and detailed speaker. I've updated my review above to reflect my latest listening experience.

Mark P

12-23-06, 03:41 PM

Yeah the whole breakin thing is a trade secret, quite funny to those that understand it, 99.9% of people think DIY speakers are too bright but as the details in the music come forward ( Piano music for instance you can hear people pressing on the footpedals, Jazz Bass you can hear the palm of the hand slapping the wood, singers taking breaths you never knew exsisted) .

The soundstage is usually the killer though, you feel you are there, close your eyes and admire. When you get your IB sub done you will probably really appreciate what you have, I see alot of listening in your future and I see your tastses changing in the coming years. You may even find your theater transform into your wife and yours favorite room if you know what I mean!

They will get better with age but its not hours, its years. I have an old pair of kit281s that sound better than any speaker Ive demoed at any Highend shop.......since you used Baltic birch in a majority as well as plywood, some say wood itself can take years to 'cure' fully.

I am pretty sure as time goes on your reviews will get even better, like the day you get the IB done and say " Oh my............." and sit there in shock that you saved a good chunk of change and did it yourself. Added bonus

bpape

12-24-06, 12:10 AM

Believe what you want in terms of break in. Woofer and mid surrounds do loosen up over time - and yes, you can measure it. Capacitors 'form' over time. Some do it quickly and are rather benign during the process. Others can go through quite a rollercoaster change in sonics for up to a couple hundred hours - especially Teflon caps.

Sure, some of it is your getting used to something different. But, if it's not good, you won't get used to it

Congrats Steve. Looks like you've got something that is going to do all you wanted and more for a lot less money - though a lot of time investment on your part. Not sure if I'm going to get down there any time soon to see my niece but if I do, I'll definitely be looking you up.

Bryan

Rick Craig

12-24-06, 12:34 AM

bpape

12-24-06, 08:39 AM

... yet another advantage of a DIY, custom designed project - being able to work with the designer to build them specifically for your situation - and having him pay attention to what you want/need.

Congrats Steve and Rick! Can't wait to get the SSR's in my upstairs system and see what they'll do.

Bryan

AVRat

12-28-06, 10:37 PM

If you haven’t received an answer from the “Cult”, or figured it yourself, the internal opening of each of the IB manifolds should be 250 sq, in. Very nice theater/workmanship BTW.

bpape

12-29-06, 01:29 PM

Steve,

Still out on vacation or just too busy listening to everything to get back on the forum and let us know how it's going?

Bryan

victor-eyd

12-29-06, 04:00 PM

Steve,

http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/LCR-AttachSide2.JPG

Excellent wood working skills. However, I can't help but notice your speakers look a lot like this diy projector design. Maybe if you had time, you could make one to match for your future outdoor theater. lol :D

http://img.timeinc.net/popsci/images/2006/06/projector_485.jpg

Victor

SVonhof

12-29-06, 07:45 PM

victor-eyd, Haywierd eh? I know Hayward quite well as I used to live in Fremont and went to church in Hayward behind the ROP over by Chabot College!

victor-eyd

12-29-06, 10:57 PM

Ack! Another local! Next thing you know, we'll meet at Bacheros and swap ht build stories!

Victor

swithey

12-30-06, 01:08 AM

IB Sub Update…. Part 1

All I can say is FINALLY!!! I finally got my IB Sub manifold built and functional with (2) 15” drivers. I have not EQed the room yet but WOW it has some power. I’ve only demoed about 10 minutes with it so I have a lot more FUN to do really soon. The bass is very clean and not boomy at all – its just there with some punch! I watched the U571, The Haunting and WOW Chap 5 clips. All were spectacular. I was in the rear row (at the very back of the room) and when the WOW tremors started, I could feel the bass on my body. The entire room shook (not where things would be falling off the walls but it was more intense than I’ve ever experienced before). I am still considering building another manifold with (2) more drivers. We’ll see how I like it once everything is EQed and calibrated.

I thought I would show you a few pics on how I routed out the driver holes. I had a few people PM me about this process. This is the same process I used when I cut the drivers holes for my DIY speakers – of course these holes are MUCH larger for this and required a special jig to support the wood while cutting (more on that later).

Here is the box before any drivers holes were cut. I used regular B/C ¾ plywood since I had a bunch left over from my riser build. The ends are ¾ MDF on the outside and ¾ ply on the inside. I used the MDF because it routes so well for the driver openings.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-Box1.JPG

In order to support the board so on the final pass the router does not fall inside, I made a quick jig to handle the support issue.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-DriverHole1.JPG

I marked the center of the box and put in a guide nail to be used with the Jasper Circle Jig
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-DriverHole2.JPG

I attached the jig to my router, inserted the nail into the correct diameter hole and cut a 3/16” deep groove to support the outer lip of the driver
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-DriverHole3.JPG

Here is the groove completed
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-DriverHole4.JPG

swithey

12-30-06, 01:08 AM

IB Sub Update…. Part 2

Now that I made the outside groove, I need to cut out the larger center hole. Because of the thickness of this baffle, multiple passes are required to get through the (2) layers of 3/4 material. I could probably do it in fewer passes but it could burn the router bit and/or cause other safety issues.

Pass 1
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-DriverHole-Pass1.JPG

Pass 2
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-DriverHole-Pass2.JPG

Pass 3 – I made it through the ¾” MDF and can now see the ¾” plywood layer
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-DriverHole-Pass3.JPG

Pass 5 – almost there
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-DriverHole-Pass5.JPG

Pass 6 – Ahh – made it through
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-DriverHole-Pass6a.JPG
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-DriverHole-Pass6b.JPG
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-DriverHole-Complete1a.JPG
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-DriverHole-Complete1b.JPG
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-DriverHole-Complete1c.JPG

swithey

12-30-06, 01:09 AM

IB Sub Update…. Part 3

My wife helped me carry this 65lb box up to the HT. I used some some scrap pieces of the high dollar felt left over from my speaker build to help with vibration. I attached it with hot glue this time.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-FeltBottom.JPG

Next I had to cut the opening for the IB sub. As ebr/Eric said “This is the point of no return”
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-Opening1.JPG

Opening cut and ready for my manifold. If you look closely, you can see the tiny 8” sub I’ve been using. I’m so happy to get rid of this thing :)
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-Opening2.JPG

Here are the drivers installed. I used the same mounting hardware ebr used. They are ¾” pipe clips.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-Driver1.JPG
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-Driver2.JPG
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-Driver3.JPG

And here they are wired up and ready to get some juice from the amp. I added the 2x6 above the box to add some support to the studs (just a little insurance).
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-WiredUp1.JPG . http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-WiredUp2.JPG

SVonhof

12-30-06, 01:45 AM

ebr

12-30-06, 09:55 AM

Wow, Steve - you used the 3/4" flat cut bit for the full cut through...? I bet that did take a few passes. I used that bit for the surround and then switched to a 1/4" spiral cut uptwist for the cut out. That sucker went through in two passes :). In any case, looks real good. Wait til you get your BFD workin' and dial up that really low end.

Scott - Steve used the SS 15"ers. I had a momentary bout of insanity and used the Fi Audio 18" drivers in mine. My IB moves about 27 liters of air. :o

Mark P

12-30-06, 10:06 AM

BritInVA

12-30-06, 10:08 AM

Mark P

12-30-06, 10:40 AM

Running the woofers sealed was intended to give better integration with a subwoofer so bass extension wasn't a priority. The woofers could be ported in a larger cabinet if you want to run them full range.Hey Rick, nice to meet you. Whats your thoughts on break in with regards to your speaker design and crossover components. Im curious if your crossovers take a hundred hours to cook the caps and if they do, Im curious on how many hours you put on all your components before designing a speaker. Do you fire your woofers in open space at 15hz for a day or two first? Just curious as to your feelings and thoughts on " break-in " and is it directly related to quality of components such as drivers and types of caps used considering some bury their crossovers deep in the cabinets where changing or adjusting can be a hassle, if not impossible.

And yes I figured you went sealed because of IB thats why I told Swithey to fire the IB before any real reviewing could be done. I just thought the reason he built them with the fancy sides and such was incase he used them later for 2 channel listening or wanted to sell them and build new ones down the road ( which he will, hes been fully infected and now knows what we have known dozens of speakers ago).

Is there a disadvantage to porting when using your design with an IB or something Im not understanding? Are to achieving better mid range or taming small driver woes. Sorry if it sounds like Im asking to many questions but I get alot of PMs concerning DIY speakers and Im only familiar with a couple designers I think you know from the forums and such in the past and I would like to throw out other options to folks but building different speakers to offer advice is sort of foolish for me since I have more than I need now and little time to "play", I know your pricing is very attractive on floorstanders as compared to what I usually suggest

BFauska

12-30-06, 01:12 PM

erkq

12-30-06, 02:10 PM

ebr

12-30-06, 03:09 PM

That IB setup looks great. I will be building a house in the next couple of years and will probably try to plan in a space off the theater for an IB also. I am sure I will spend way too much time researching when I am ready, but the only question that is popping up now is why use the conduit clips instead of bolting directly through the mounting holes of the driver?

I like to build my own stuff, and when I said "build" a house I meant I will build the house, so I figure I will also do my own speakers at some point. Thanks to everybody here making the benefits of DIY speakers so apparent.

Thanks, and congratulations on an excellent looking theater.
Brian

Brian - the reason you use the clips is two fold: 1) With big, heavy drivers like 15 or 18"ers going through the mounting holes ends up being very close to the edge of a large cutout. While this may not be a problem it it possible that, over time, some of the screw/bolt holes might tear through - especially with a material like MDF. Using the clips places the bolt holes well away from the edge of the cutout. 2) using the clips makes moving drivers around or switching them out very easy. Something that DIY IB builders tend to like to do.

cburbs

12-30-06, 06:19 PM

Very cool stuff steve. Can't wait to hear more on your IBs.

ifeliciano

12-30-06, 08:16 PM

I marked the center of the box and put in a guide nail to be used with the Jasper Circle Jig
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/IB-DriverHole2.JPG

What ? You already lost the guide pin included with the jig ? Makes me think you've been using that jig quite a bit... :D

swithey

12-31-06, 12:46 AM

Steve,

Still out on vacation or just too busy listening to everything to get back on the forum and let us know how it's going?

Bryan
Yep - been busy :D We had family in town so I did not get as much done this week as I wanted. Good to know you were thinking of me while YOU should have been spending time with your family ;)

swithey

12-31-06, 12:48 AM

swithey

12-31-06, 12:50 AM

If you haven’t received an answer from the “Cult”, or figured it yourself, the internal opening of each of the IB manifolds should be 250 sq, in. Very nice theater/workmanship BTW.
It turned out the 16 OC manifold would have been slightly smaller. I wanted to get the most performance out of these woofers as I could so I opted for a larger design. This one is larger than normal but did not require me to do an stud addition/relocation. Performance has been stellar!

Oh and thanks for the kind words!

swithey

12-31-06, 12:55 AM

Looks good Steve, you IB guys are a crazy bunch!

BTW, you took those pics of the routing and I don't see any dust orbs in your images. Did you not use a flash on the camera and instead use some other light source? Dust orbs are such a problem with sawdust and sheetrock dust normally...

BTW, are those the same drivers EBR used as well? Those look like Sound Splinter drivers if I remember the logo correctly.

Glad the wiring worked out right. Would hate to wire them incorrectly and blow an amp or something by trying to push it with 1 ohm instead of 4.
Scott,

Thanks for the tips on the wiring. It was very simple to do and did not take long to give these woofs some life!

I was very lucky on the dust blobs I guess. I used the normal flash.

And ebr is right -- they are SoundSplinter RL-p15s (http://www.soundsplinter.com/rlp15_premium_series_15_inch_DIY_subwoofer_information.html) .

swithey

12-31-06, 01:01 AM

Nice call on the felt bottom, stuff is great for all sorts of things. Put the other pair in, you wont regret it, your neighbors might, but you wont.

Speaking of neighbors, did you get a chance to step outside during bass heavey scenes and give a listen?
Yes-- the felt did very well. The (2) woofs I have hooked up right now are doing a mighty fine job but I am wondering what (2) more could get me. The volume level downstairs is louder but not as bad as I thought it would be. NOW -- in the garage (HT is directly above the garage), bass is pretty loud (even at low volumes). Glad the Master Bedroom is not there instead :D I did go outside today and you could barely hear it. It sounded like a faint thunder roar. I know if I add (2) more 15"ers, I might bother the neighbors slightly more :rolleyes:

swithey

12-31-06, 01:09 AM

Man you been busy Steve - I thought your absense over the holidays was because you were A/B'ing the new speakers with your Bose :D

How does your wife like the IB? Or is the verdict still awaited?

Cheers,
Mark
LOTS of family stuff this week (which was expected). It took me almost all day yesterday to get the manifold completed and installed.

When the wife saw the 15" driver in the box, she did not freak out (which is NOT what I expected). She didn't even roll her eyes -- guess I've got her trained ;) All she has said is it is louder downstairs when it gets going. As long as I don't ramp it up much at night when she is in bed, I should be fine :D Guess I got lucky ebr :p

As far as the verdict, I'll tell you this. I had my brother in-law over today and I took him into the room for the 1st time. I put on WOW Chap 5 (the pod emersion). While it was going on, he looked at me and asked it I had buttkickers installed in my chairs. I told him "no" and that all the shaking was from PURE bass. He also mentioned that he liked that the bass did not sound loud but had some real impact. Overall, I am very pleased with the results so far!

swithey

12-31-06, 01:18 AM

Hi Steve,

I got great advice from you a while back and now have 4 Behringer active xovers (3 stereo, 1 mono) and 3 Outlaw amps (a 7125 and 2 7075's, all ordered B-stock) to go with my Dynaudio components. Thanks so much for helping me spend money! :-)

I see now that you are using subwoofer manifolds. So another question: I've got 9 wall studs on 16" centers under the screen for the express purpose of mounting 8 15" Altec's between them for my IB subwoofer. I figured a line array would couple better with the room. Now I see these manifolds. I understand they cancel vibration because they oppose eachother. Any other advantages to a manifold? Would an inline array couple better than 4 manifolds (2 woofers each)? Is vibration a big enough problem problem to blur the image on the screen?

Your project looks fantastic!
Glad to help you spend YOUR money. bpape helped me spend mine ;)

On the line array -- I read somewhere that it can have better performance than a manifold design. I did the manifold to reduce vibration as you mentioned above. Because the wall where the woofers live is NOT the wall that the screen uses, vibration in my case should not be noticeable. I have not noticed any screen rippling or wall vibration from inside the room. I have not gone back in the attic space when things get crazy yet to see if anything is going on (but I plan to with some ear plugs installed -- just in case). I have attic storage stuff back there and nothing rattles. So, it is up to you as to the design. It would be easier to build the line-array, though.

swithey

12-31-06, 01:25 AM

That IB setup looks great. I will be building a house in the next couple of years and will probably try to plan in a space off the theater for an IB also. I am sure I will spend way too much time researching when I am ready, but the only question that is popping up now is why use the conduit clips instead of bolting directly through the mounting holes of the driver?

I like to build my own stuff, and when I said "build" a house I meant I will build the house, so I figure I will also do my own speakers at some point. Thanks to everybody here making the benefits of DIY speakers so apparent.

Thanks, and congratulations on an excellent looking theater.
Brian
Brian,

Sounds like you are going to have you hands full with the home build. The nice part is you can design the room exactly how you want it. Spend the time researching as it will help you make a better design. I also recommend talking with bpape because he can steer you away from common HT mistakes before they even happen :) I cannot tell you how much he helped me (and many others on the board).

And I would definitely consider the IB sub -- just outstanding performance for a lot less money. And ebr was right about the clips and the possibility of the screws breaking through. That was my concern as well and the reason I "copied" his design :D

swithey

12-31-06, 01:28 AM

Very cool stuff steve. Can't wait to hear more on your IBs.
All I can say it the performance is just amazing. You can feel it across your entire body. The chairs shake and you think you are actually experiencing the action right in the room. I can only image how much better it will get once I get the bass EQed. IMO -- it will only get better from here!

swithey

12-31-06, 01:30 AM

What ? You already lost the guide pin included with the jig ? Makes me think you've been using that jig quite a bit... :D
Actually, I've never used the pin that came with the jig. The nail works perfectly, drives in in 2 seconds flat and is disposable. Maybe I need to check out the supplied pin to see how it works :o

bpape

12-31-06, 11:50 AM

Good job. IMO that's the way to get that visceral feel - the old fashioned way. No shakers required - just pure room pressurization. Shakers can't give you that feel of getting slammed in the chest with a good sharp deep bass transient.

Bryan

erkq

12-31-06, 12:09 PM

I am wondering what (2) more could get me.

3 more db!

BTW, thanks for your response. The screen will NOT be on the wall so the inline array may work well.

erkq

12-31-06, 01:25 PM

ronnie_jackson

12-31-06, 02:19 PM

swithey

12-31-06, 02:46 PM

swithey

12-31-06, 02:48 PM

To follow up on what you get with 2 more woofers... It's interesting to note that although hearing is logarithmic in scale, physical chest-beating and teeth-rattling is linear. You WILL get twice the thumping on your chest with a 3 db increase.
Now that's what I'm talking about. The db volume is not important -- just the pure beating! Hmm, I may have to consider it. When I told my wife I might add (2) more, she didn't even flinch. I don't think she understands (which is a good thing) :D

swithey

12-31-06, 03:34 PM

I think its about time for another visit. :) Im ready to ramp up on my HT again after the long hiatus and all this IB stuff is sounding very interesting. You may have a buyer for those other 2 woofs if you decide not to use them.

Ronnie
I think it's my turn to visit your room 1st! I should be able to do that in the next few weeks since the holiday is over.

swithey

01-01-07, 04:53 PM

Quick IB Sub Update...

Just finished watching The Polar Express with the family and all I can say is WOW! The bass is powerful and feels so natural. The great part about this sub is you FEEL it but it does not sound overly loud. I felt bass during this movie I never even heard before.

In particular -- the scene where the train is skating across the ice, comes to a final halt (but is up on one side) and crashes down onto the ice. When I heard this in the past, I was disappointed because I thought there should have been more bass on the crash. Well.. I was not disappointed today. It rumbled the room "intensely" upon contact with the ice. I could not stop smiling.

And one other plus... my wife even enjoys the smooth bass we get now. She commented how it did not sound boomy anymore (here exact words). I never expected that comment from her. I believe I can check this one off as Mission Accomplished!

So -- if you are considering an IB sub, I recommend it without reservation.

erkq

01-01-07, 06:56 PM

Quick IB Sub Update...

Just finished watching The Polar Express with the family and all I can say is WOW! The bass is powerful and feels so natural. The great part about this sub is you FEEL it but it does not sound overly loud. I felt bass during this movie I never felt before.

Yes... that deep foundation bass adds so much. The usual stuff most experience as "deep" bass between 20Hz and 30Hz just doesn't do it the way the bone rattling stuff below 20Hz does. To be effective, it needs displace LOTS of air with low distortion, no doubling and no "whooshing".

Wait 'till you hear the tank fire down the street in The Pianist. I just assaults you. My g'friend let out a really good "yipe".

SVonhof

01-01-07, 07:26 PM

Wait 'till you hear the tank fire down the street in The Pianist. I just assaults you. My g'friend let out a really good "yipe".

I have not watched the Pianist in my theater, but may have to with the addition of my new sub (it's not IB, but it still goes low).

Steve, if you know somebody who has not seen "Bandits (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0219965/)" before, put that in now, with the IB turned on. When they are in the bank and shoot the shotgun, I can't beleive how that shocked me, as if it was happening right next to me...

ebr

01-01-07, 07:58 PM

I'll add one for ya. Stick in The Incredibles and go to the scene where Mr. Incredible is sneaking around on the island at night. He rips one of the little people-mover pods off the tracks and hurls it at a couple of guards. When it lands it feels like it just landed on you. The first time I saw that scene I was afraid I knocked the projector off the ceiling - serieously. It rattled so badly I jumped up and put my hand under it to be sure it stayed. Turns out it was just the cover rattling, thank goodness.

That's the first scene I show people with the IB now. Its fun to see the dumb look on their faces when that thing hits.

And one for sheer wall shaking, room moving power is that scene from the demo disc in The Haunting. Serious room pounding on that one in my setup.

And you haven't even EQ'd yet...

Mark P

01-01-07, 09:56 PM

The newest XMen has a scene where the wheel chair guy is being suspended by some girl in a Kitchen if I remember correctly and it goes on and on and on and on and its low, I had people moving towards the exit on that one. Posiden adventure, and V for Vendetta had some good low stuff as well

swithey

01-01-07, 11:19 PM

Yes... that deep foundation bass adds so much. The usual stuff most experience as "deep" bass between 20Hz and 30Hz just doesn't do it the way the bone rattling stuff below 20Hz does. To be effective, it needs displace LOTS of air with low distortion, no doubling and no "whooshing".

Wait 'till you hear the tank fire down the street in The Pianist. I just assaults you. My g'friend let out a really good "yipe".
Agree!! I love the really low stuff as well. I think my old 8" sub only went down to 40Hz. Man was I missing a lot.

swithey

01-01-07, 11:33 PM

Looks like I have a few more demos to check out. Thanks for the suggestions guys:

1) The Incredibles: Island Night Scene
2) Pianist: Tank Scene
3) Bandits: Shotgun Scene
4) Xmen: Levitation Scene

Currently the one I use to show off things is the WOTW Chap 5 (Pod Emersion) and The Haunting door rattle scene. People are just amazed about how much bass they feel on their body. AND.. I really thought the U571 depth charges would be better than it was. It was good but not as intense as I had hoped.

My plan to put all my favorite LFE scenes on my own DVD to show off the sub. The (2) LFE discs that are out are outstanding as well -- but I really want to make my own for fun!

ebr -- you are right about the EQ. I started playing around with it yesterday but didn't get anywhere. I know once I add the house curve -- I'm sure I will be blown away with the performance. I'm still wondering if I really need to add (2) more? I made my manifold size a little larger to be sure I got the most performance out of these (2) drivers just in case I decided not to add the others.

MarkP -- I know... just add the other pair and drive the neighbors away ;)

Ronnie and David -- I think you will both be floored when you hear this thing in action. I'm still having so much fun with it.

ronnie_jackson

01-02-07, 12:34 AM

Im ready to be floored! Just let me know when your ready to demo. Im actually a little afraid to hear it. It might end up costing me $$ :D

Ronnie

SVonhof

01-02-07, 01:44 AM

Steve, another scene to try out with the IB is in Finding Nemo, the scene when Dory and Nemo are inside the whale. I have to re-watch that with my new sub, but with my old ones, I remember the door rattling to where we stopped the movie to see what was going on.

bpape

01-02-07, 07:35 AM

Mark P

01-02-07, 09:18 AM

AND.. I really thought the U571 depth charges would be better than it was. It was good but not as intense as I had hoped.

I'm still wondering if I really need to add (2) more? I made my manifold size a little larger to be sure I got the most performance out of these (2) drivers just in case I decided not to add the others. I think you answered your own question, U571 is sort of the standard that lets you know right away if its sufficient. I would try U571 again and move back a little on each explosion, Maybe youre sitting in one of the the nodes (point of maximum cancellation) this will be somewhere in the middle of the room sit there and you'll hear less bass than you expect. In my room with no treatments whatsoever I can find my nodes almost instantly by walking around and listening and unfortunetly the worst one lands at front row seating. When you find these its good to know where theyre at so when you place your second box you can wiggle it around ( probably placing the box slightly crooked) and you will be set, but before screwing it in just have a listen

If you stick with the single, you can always play with the phase a little.

ifeliciano

01-02-07, 10:03 AM

I don't have an IB setup :( , but thought the scene when the Brit and French ships are attacking each other in Master and Commander was fairly low freq intense.

swithey

01-02-07, 10:22 AM

swithey

01-02-07, 10:37 AM

And also in Nemo - the scene where Dora comes in and taps on the aquarium sides. It's not that sub 20Hz stuff but the sheer thump and hold on the deep bass is impressive.

Also, remember that part of the reason that you're not getting that boom any more is that you gave up the real estate to put in some bass absorbers that are thick enough to be effective down into the nether regions.

Bryan
I have listened this this one and it is intense. Before when I listened to it on the 8" sub, it just did not sound right at high volume. With the new one, it sounded perfect and strong.

As far as the boomyness, I actually had the bass traps installed even with the old 8" sub. I had the volume on this thing at about 75% so I'm sure there was a lot of distortion. It also bottomed out quite easily. It did not sound that boomy to me -- just very weak.

swithey

01-02-07, 10:42 AM

I think you answered your own question, U571 is sort of the standard that lets you know right away if its sufficient. I would try U571 again and move back a little on each explosion, Maybe youre sitting in one of the the nodes (point of maximum cancellation) this will be somewhere in the middle of the room sit there and you'll hear less bass than you expect. In my room with no treatments whatsoever I can find my nodes almost instantly by walking around and listening and unfortunetly the worst one lands at front row seating. When you find these its good to know where theyre at so when you place your second box you can wiggle it around ( probably placing the box slightly crooked) and you will be set, but before screwing it in just have a listen

If you stick with the single, you can always play with the phase a little.
I'll give the U571 another try by moving around the room. I think things might perk up once I get the EQ configured for the the prime listening position as well -- as I might be able to reduce the effect of the null(s) a bit.

But you make a good argument for the 2nd box. Hmm :rolleyes:

swithey

01-02-07, 10:43 AM

I don't have an IB setup :( , but thought the scene when the Brit and French ships are attacking each other in Master and Commander was fairly low freq intense.
I've watched this scene before but not with the new sub. I'll definitely check it out.

TKB

01-03-07, 11:02 AM

Steve,

Thanks for letting me hear your IB in action last night.

To all, I don't normally interject my opinions on web forums, mostly because I'm an AV dealer/custom installer and don't want to peddle my goods or services thru this format.

I've been in the business for about 12 years and have put in some nice sub systems so I've seen and heard a lot! This thing of Steve's takes the cake!! Never have I been more impressed with a subwoofer than I was last night when Steve demoed the crash scene from Flight of the Phoenix. I literally felt the wrenching of the plane in my knees.

The scene was being played at near reference level and the bass never sounded boomy nor did it overpower the other speakers. It just gave me that tight punch in the gut that drew me right into the action. I can't imagine what the scene would sound like with another two woofers in place. Just scary bass!! :eek: :eek:

We also ran thru several other LFE select scenes, including WOTW, U571, LOTR and all delivered outstanding bass response. Music too. Steve tossed in some Eagles DTS tracks and some Blue October "Foiled" tunes and the bass seemed very smooth and tight. Also, the new mains that Steve built sounded very smooth for music delivering wonderful imaging. I was actually quite surprised by how great they sounded, as good as any commercial speaker system I've ever used.

If anyone is thinking about adding an IB to your HT and you have the room for it then I would urge you to consider it. Your neighbors may hate you at first but invite em over for a movie night and you will become fast friends.

Excellent job Steve!!

Tom

swithey

01-03-07, 11:35 AM

swithey

01-03-07, 11:46 AM

I think you answered your own question, U571 is sort of the standard that lets you know right away if its sufficient. I would try U571 again and move back a little on each explosion, Maybe youre sitting in one of the the nodes (point of maximum cancellation) this will be somewhere in the middle of the room sit there and you'll hear less bass than you expect. MarkP,

While demoing the room last night with Tom, we played the U571 scene again. This time I sat in the back row and the bass was more pronounced. So it appears I may have a null in the front row (at least at the frequency of that explosion). I feel the full punch of bass while watching Flight of the Phoenix in the front row, though. EQ may help this enough where I won't need the other (2) drivers. I plan to look into that this weekend. When I told the wife I may be adding more bass, she laughed and said NO. I think she thought I was kidding :rolleyes: Ahh, I'll just sneak it in if I need it :D

miltimj

01-03-07, 12:07 PM

swithey

01-03-07, 04:22 PM

That's some great feedback! Congrats, Steve!

You could try putting the box sub in whatever location has the null(s), and look for the most solid response along the front wall, and put the second half of the IB there. That might even out room response somewhat. The biggest advantage to doubling the SPL is you can trim down the peaks with EQ and still have solid SPL.
Good idea. I'll give that a try!!

I wonder how much of the bass in the kitchen is being heard from the rear wave as opposed to front? That's what's really drawing me away from IB. I need to be able to enclose the rear wave for the most part (though in a large space of course) so it is relatively sound proofed. I think I'll have to go with two large sonosubs or something.
Keep in mind, I had it pretty darn loud in the room. I locked the door so that my daughters could not come in. The amp was sitting at about 65% total volume (about 290watts per driver) and my 125wpc AVR was at about -12. I would say the bass db in the room was easily in the 90+db range during "Flight of the Phoenix" crash scene. We had to speak pretty loudly in the room to hear each other. At normal volume levels, the floor does not vibrate downstairs and the bass is audible but not distracting during the day. Now if I tried to do it at midnight when the wife was asleep in the MBR, my name would be mud pretty darn fast.

IB is a meaty animal. You can see even from ebr's IB install, a lot of sound gets into the house (and all his was rear wave/attic since his room is so well insulated). I do know Bpape has done some over and above sound containment in his HT and he still gets some vibration in the kitchen downstairs at high levels. He is using a monster Contrabass Servo Sub (http://www.servodrive.com/contrabass.html) that puts out some serious SPLs and air movement (nearly 3" of total driver play I think :eek: ).

With my limited knowledge on this subject -- I would say if containment was your #1 priority (but you wanted IB "like" performance), you could build out a 8'x8'+ area in your attic space to make a LARGE Sealed/Ported sub (just as you suggested above). Make the walls in the attic space a "room within a room" with RISC clips and GG. That should give you some nice performance with very little sound escaping. Just an idea -- but the cost to do something like this may outweigh the cost saving benefits of DIY :(

Maybe bpape can ring in with some suggestions as well?

miltimj

01-03-07, 05:16 PM

Do you have an SPL meter to get some actual readings? I'm curious to compare apples with apples.. Once you flatten out response, that is.

The theater will almost certainly be in the basement of my future house, with the possibility of the "enclosure" being a storage/utility room. The ductwork is my biggest concern, since the bass would travel through it I'm sure. Since the equipment closet will likely be in there also and I'll want truss space open for running cabling and stuff, I don't think I'd be able to enclose it very well, unless all I created a special storage room just for it, of which I'm not sure I can spare the space. I think I may have to "settle" for two sonosubs like Steve Callas's (http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/507/110.jpg).. :)

swithey

01-03-07, 05:42 PM

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/507/110.jpg
A few of those would kick some a$$. I think he is using a 20" or 24" driver in that tube!

One nice part about the IB is it is totally hidden. My wife really wanted a room without a large water heater in the front/rear of the room ;) If your wife can deal with the twin towers in the room, then that would be a great solution. I would definitely want to come visit and see those in action :D

swithey

01-03-07, 05:51 PM

Do you have an SPL meter to get some actual readings? I'm curious to compare apples with apples.. Once you flatten out response, that is.
Yes - happy to do that. Let me see how far I get on it this weekend. I think I have to sand and re-stain our kitchen table first :rolleyes:

Mark P

01-03-07, 06:47 PM

My IB is a room within a room in the attic utilizing the lower eve vents as well as the rooftop vents, it also a very large area even though its a fairly small containment ( 19' x 10'). All the vents work well in making like a room with a window open of you add up all the vents. Ive tried a water heater sub and they are massive and take up some much needed realstate for their performance.

Im still not so sure you cant contain the rear wave in EBRs case, Im thinking it may take some serious absorbing in layers and in itself be large and take a large chunk of space. All you need is access to the outside and problem solved ( think Bass Chimney if in basement)

miltimj

01-04-07, 03:28 PM

A few of those would kick some a$$. I think he is using a 20" or 24" driver in that tube!

One nice part about the IB is it is totally hidden. My wife really wanted a room without a large water heater in the front/rear of the room ;) If your wife can deal with the twin towers in the room, then that would be a great solution. I would definitely want to come visit and see those in action :D
It is an 18" Ascendant Audio Avalanche - phenomenal driver especially for the price when they were on closeout! The tube is 24".

Oh, believe me, these will be totally hidden as well... Most likely a 28+" deep false wall with shadowbox that contains the screen in the middle. The room will need to be wide enough to accommodate one of these on each side, hopefully with a few inches of breathing room (plus space for sound treatments). Basically, think of Ronnie's room, with one of these behind each of his side false walls at the front of his theater, but the overall front wall will be a bit different. I figure it's wasted space on the side anyway, since I'll need the depth to put L/C/Rs behind the screen.

At least that's the plan in my head for now... :cool:

swithey

01-05-07, 10:53 AM

Per miltimj/Tim’s request, I did the Flight of the Phoenix crash scene in the room this morning. The wife and kids were away so I had about 15 minutes to play :D

I hooked up my RatShack meter at ear level in my prime seat and ran the DTS version of this scene (it's on Kweezr's custom DTS Demo Disc #6). I had the AVR at -12 and the sub amp around 60% of full volume (Sub level in the AVR is at 0db). I also did some minor sub EQing the other night which seems to have made a big difference in the response level.

Keep I mind I was only in the room for about 30 seconds at this volume level….

The sound level was hovering around 92-95db and peeked during a few scenes around 112db :eek: Freek’n unbelievable. The woofers did not sound strained or distorted at all – very clean the entire time. While wearing ear plugs, I went back in the attic space to look at the woofers. They were moving about ¾” in both directions when things got crazy. I think I even saw the manifold box jump once – I though “Holy Crap”. Next I went outside the room to the game room (which touches the HT but only in a very small corner). The thermostat on the wall was vibrating. Next I went downstairs to the kitchen which is about 20’ diagonal from the HT but on the 1st floor. The plates were shaking on the shelves. Last, I went outside and stood in the back alley (the HT is above the garage). You could hear the roof vents rattling as well as the shingles crackling. Bass was audible in all locations but at a lower level of course. I really cannot comment on the level because I was just too rushed to really pay attention. All I can say is it would be distracting to be downstairs if you want some peace and quiet. I think my neighbors are still wondering what they heard. It might be time to invite them over to experience it 1st hand :rolleyes:

Keep in mind that this is louder than normal listening level (and louder than when Tom came over the other night) but I just wanted to see what this thing could do. The sub performance has really improved since I added the EQ and leveled things out a bit.

Tim – I’ll run it again at a normal “movie” listening level and see how the dbs are as well. I just ran out of time and had to get to work.

miltimj

01-05-07, 03:45 PM

Awesome, thanks for doing that, Steve. That's most certainly prohibitively loud according to my wife.. :( Though I'm sure quite a bit of it is from the doubling of volume due to the rear wave not being sealed.

I look forward to your tests at normal listening volume.. thanks again!

ifeliciano

01-05-07, 05:00 PM

The sound level was hovering around 92-95db and peeked during a few scenes around 112db :eek: Freek’n unbelievable.

WOW !!

Was that you I heard ? :D

I think im gonna take the plunge...

BritInVA

01-05-07, 05:14 PM

jikkjack

01-05-07, 05:24 PM

SVonhof

01-06-07, 01:28 AM

Steve,

Can you try the beginning of Into the blue when the plane crashes into the ocean? i wonder if that could blow the roof off. If it does - continue watching the movie and Jessica should make you feel better. ;-)

Good movie. I will also have to re-watch that with my new sub.

swithey

01-08-07, 11:19 AM

swithey

01-08-07, 11:28 AM

WOW !!

Was that you I heard ? :D

I think im gonna take the plunge...
You won't regret it. I know BPape is probably rolling his eyes at the stress I put on my house :rolleyes: :D It was fun but I don't plan to do that very often.

swithey

01-08-07, 11:29 AM

Glad I left the DFW area last night (was in Frisco/Plano area) as the vibrations from your IB might of brought the plane down (i.e. as in Lost). You better start a fund for a new roof every 5 years :eek

Cheers,
Mark
I didn't see drywall dust/flakes in my garage like MarkP mentioned he experienced in his garage. SO -- I guess next time I need to loop that chapter over and over until I see the dust or my roof just falls in :eek:

swithey

01-08-07, 11:33 AM

Steve,

Can you try the beginning of Into the blue when the plane crashes into the ocean? i wonder if that could blow the roof off. If it does - continue watching the movie and Jessica should make you feel better. ;-)
I have not seen that movie myself. If it has bass and eye candy (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7095975&&#post7095975) then it just moved to the top of my list ;)

bpape

01-08-07, 11:38 AM

Sounds like you're having way too much fun Steve.

Bryan

Zinema

01-09-07, 07:29 AM

The sound level was hovering around 92-95db and peeked during a few scenes around 112db :eek: Freek’n unbelievable. The woofers did not sound strained or distorted at all – very clean the entire time. While wearing ear plugs, I went back in the attic space to look at the woofers. They were moving about ¾” in both directions when things got crazy. I think I even saw the manifold box jump once – I though “Holy Crap”. Next I went outside the room to the game room (which touches the HT but only in a very small corner). The thermostat on the wall was vibrating. Next I went downstairs to the kitchen which is about 20’ diagonal from the HT but on the 1st floor. The plates were shaking on the shelves. Last, I went outside and stood in the back alley (the HT is above the garage). You could hear the roof vents rattling as well as the shingles crackling.

Steve - that IS crazy...holy crap.... :eek: :D :eek:
But I guess you have lots of fun with your new toy... :)

I wonder how my dual TL-Sub will do - I might get it done within the next 2 or 3 weeks, but I guess it will not be as brute as an decent IB design.

swithey

01-09-07, 10:22 AM

Steve - that IS crazy...holy crap.... :eek: :D :eek:
But I guess you have lots of fun with your new toy... :)

I wonder how my dual TL-Sub will do - I might get it done within the next 2 or 3 weeks, but I guess it will not be as brute as an decent IB design.
The IB is a beast but I'm sure your dual sub setup will do quite nicely -- especially with all those solid 12" thick concrete walls. The bass has no where to go be stay in your room.

swithey

01-09-07, 10:27 AM

Sounds like you're having way too much fun Steve.

Bryan
My Dad is coming over on Sunday to watch a movie. When he was over at Xmas, he noted that there was not enough bass in the room. It should be interesting to hear his response now :D

swithey

01-09-07, 10:40 AM

To follow up on what you get with 2 more woofers... It's interesting to note that although hearing is logarithmic in scale, physical chest-beating and teeth-rattling is linear. You WILL get twice the thumping on your chest with a 3 db increase.
Hey erkq -- quick question on the chest thumping.

Assume I decide to add (2) more 15ers (yep -- I'm crazy). My goal would be to get more physical aggressiveness but keep the volume level constant. I would assume with the addition of (2) more, I would get more air movement and pressurization, no mater what the db level -- right? Basically - I want the chair/room to shake but not require my guests to sign a liability waver for possible hearing loss ;)

Zinema

01-09-07, 11:42 AM

Assume I decide to add (2) more 15ers (yep -- I'm crazy). My goal would be to get more physical aggressiveness but keep the volume level constant. I would assume with the addition of (2) more, I would get more air movement and pressurization, no mater what the db level -- right? Basically - I want the chair/room to shake but not require my guests to sign a liability waver for possible hearing loss ;)

You are simply going to blow your roof away....and your neighbours will not be able to tell if that was an earthquake, a bomb exploding in your attic or just you test driving your four 15ers IB!! :eek: :eek:

erkq

01-09-07, 12:21 PM

Hey erkq -- quick question on the chest thumping.

Assume I decide to add (2) more 15ers (yep -- I'm crazy). My goal would be to get more physical aggressiveness but keep the volume level constant. I would assume with the addition of (2) more, I would get more air movement and pressurization, no mater what the db level -- right? Basically - I want the chair/room to shake but not require my guests to sign a liability waver for possible hearing loss ;)

Basically right... 2 more woofers would theoretically raise the db level also, but only by 3 db. But the physical effect on your body would double because that's twice the energy. Like if someone hit you twice as hard you'd notice it twice as much. :eek: As I said earlier, your body has a linear response to physical energy.

I'm no hearing expert but I think high energy infrasonic sound does not damage your hearing like higher frequencies. I think there's a weighting curve in "safe" db level guidelines that falls off pretty rapidly at ultra low frequencies. In other words I don't think moving your sofa is going to damage your ears. At least that's what I'm banking on in my HT!

Anyone know for sure?

ebr

01-09-07, 04:39 PM

Basically right... 2 more woofers would theoretically raise the db level also, but only by 3 db. But the physical effect on your body would double because that's twice the energy. Like if someone hit you twice as hard you'd notice it twice as much. :eek: As I said earlier, your body has a linear response to physical energy.

I'm no hearing expert but I think high energy infrasonic sound does not damage your hearing like higher frequencies. I think there's a weighting curve in "safe" db level guidelines that falls off pretty rapidly at ultra low frequencies. In other words I don't think moving your sofa is going to damage your ears. At least that's what I'm banking on in my HT!

Anyone know for sure?

Yes, I think this is correct. Maybe Bryan can confirm for real.

Steve - go for it. I've got four 18"ers going and the house hasn't come down yet. Although, the floor of the foyer (directly above the IB chamber) does bounce :eek: .

swithey

01-09-07, 04:48 PM

Yes, I think this is correct. Maybe Bryan can confirm for real.

Steve - go for it. I've got four 18"ers going and the house hasn't come down yet. Although, the floor of the foyer (directly above the IB chamber) does bounce :eek: .
Eric,

I would be interested if you ran a heavy bass scene (like FOTF or WOTW) with (2) and then with (4) as the same overall db level. Do you feel more punch with (4) as the math tells us you should?

Oh-- and hope your ceiling does not fall down in the foyer ;)

ebr

01-09-07, 04:53 PM

erkq

01-09-07, 04:56 PM

Eric,

I would be interested if you ran a heavy bass scene (like FOTF or WOTW) with (2) and then with (4) as the same overall db level. Do you feel more punch with (4) as the math tells us you should?

Oh-- and hope your ceiling does not fall down in the foyer ;)

I wish there WERE a ceiling to fall down. My house is under construction so I'm talking through my hat... no empirical data on my part yet... hence the "anyone know for sure" question. But I think I am... fits the things I have understanding of.

swithey

01-09-07, 04:57 PM

Unfortunately, to do that, I have to re-calibrate everything. I went to only 2 drivers for a bit but switched back to all 4 when I bottomed the two driver setup out during one scene (scared the crap outta me).

So, not sure I want to take that on. I will take a quick reading of db level to see what I've got going in the room, however...
Thanks for the reply and no problem. I cannot believe you bottomed out the drivers. You must have really been pushing them. I'll bet it was during the time you were playing the U571 scene and your Mother-In-Law decided to go outside :D

ebr

01-09-07, 05:09 PM

Thanks for the reply and no problem. I cannot believe you bottomed out the drivers. You must have really been pushing them. I'll bet it was during the time you were playing the U571 scene and your Mother-In-Law decided to go outside :D

Actually, it was on that "people-pod throw and landing" scene I mentioned in The Incredibles.

Here's what I did just do:

I ran that scene on Demo 2 from The Haunting with just my SVS and then with the IB kicked in. In both setups I peaked my meter out at 119db at my seating location (2nd row). When the doors are banging it is between 103-112 steady and then the big one pops to 119. Even with just the SVS this is quite impressive. With the IB in the mix, however, it gets downright scary. The walls rattle, the projector cover sounds like it might fly off and the pressure wave in the room almost makes your ears pop. I think you would probably see a similar relative effect by adding those other two drivers.

BTW - that's at -5 on my receiver. I'm afraid to go any higher :o

jikkjack

01-09-07, 05:12 PM

Yes - happy to do that. Let me see how far I get on it this weekend. I think I have to sand and re-stain our kitchen table first :rolleyes:

totally off topic but i have to do this very same thing :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: . have you ever sanded and re-stained a table before or will this be a first time adventure? i am looking for pointers as I don't want to screw up an expensive table, chairs and buffet. i keep telling the wife that we should hire this job out but she looks around at all of the stuff I have been doing lately and seems to think I should be able to do it and i am trying to get out of a honey-do item. :o

ronnie_jackson

01-09-07, 05:48 PM

swithey

01-10-07, 09:46 PM

Actually, it was on that "people-pod throw and landing" scene I mentioned in The Incredibles.

Here's what I did just do:

I ran that scene on Demo 2 from The Haunting with just my SVS and then with the IB kicked in. In both setups I peaked my meter out at 119db at my seating location (2nd row). When the doors are banging it is between 103-112 steady and then the big one pops to 119. Even with just the SVS this is quite impressive. With the IB in the mix, however, it gets downright scary. The walls rattle, the projector cover sounds like it might fly off and the pressure wave in the room almost makes your ears pop. I think you would probably see a similar relative effect by adding those other two drivers.

BTW - that's at -5 on my receiver. I'm afraid to go any higher :o
Thanks Eric. I'm seriously considering adding (2) more to add more punch.

With that said, I just finished watching "The Incredibles" with the kids. I had it at a at moderate level of -17 (which was loud enough to hear everything and still get a zing on loud scenes). This is the 1st time I watched this movie with the new sub. It was like watching it for the 1st time. The added bass is just unbelievable! It dramatically added to the movie experience and made it SO much more enjoyable. After every bass attack, I was eagerly awaiting the next one :) Yep, I'm addicted!

Eric, I watched that Incredibles scene you mentioned earlier and did feel the punch you talked about. I did not get the "ear popping" pressure you described but I didn't have the volume at -5 and have (4) 18"'s and (2) 12"'s moving air at the same time either :eek: BUT -- I did FEEL the bass and chair vibration in all the scenes just beautifully. I would say that (2) 15" for most (unless you are a total bass nut) would be totally adequate in a room my size (~2500cu/ft).

swithey

01-10-07, 09:57 PM

totally off topic but i have to do this very same thing :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: . have you ever sanded and re-stained a table before or will this be a first time adventure? i am looking for pointers as I don't want to screw up an expensive table, chairs and buffet. i keep telling the wife that we should hire this job out but she looks around at all of the stuff I have been doing lately and seems to think I should be able to do it and i am trying to get out of a honey-do item. :o
Sorry for the delay getting back with you on this post! This is the 1st time I've refinished a "stain-grade" table. This is a slightly distressed solid pine table we bought at Pottery Barn about 10 years ago -- so getting it "perfect" is not as important. If you are dealing with some nice furniture with a glossy finish, you are really in a workout. Sanding it down is also delicate balance. If you sand too much in a single area, the stain may not take (or take too much) and not match the rest of the wood. Also, if it has a veneer finish (vs. solid wood), you could sand through the veneer to the wood below. You really need to know what you have so you can consider all your options.

Mine is not quite done yet. With the colder weather, the oil-based stain is taking longer to dry. Hopefully I can get a coat of Poly on it later this week. I plan to put (3) coats on the top and (2) coats on everything else.

I'm not sure if I answered your question. Let me know if you have any others. Feel free to PM me as well.

swithey

01-10-07, 09:58 PM

You guys are INSANE!!!! I WANT ONE :eek:

Ronnie
Yes we are and you definitely want one - no doubt about it!

chinadog

01-10-07, 10:35 PM

swithey

01-11-07, 12:09 PM

Steve,

Starting to think we need to move this thread to the Speakers section! :D I know, I know, we can move mine to the Accessories area, Gameroom area, Smartass area and/or Guys that Drink too Much Beer area.... :rolleyes: :D

Bud
Just wait until I add the smell, water misting and air canon modules to the room like at Walt Disney World. I'll bet MarkP is working on that next ;)

jikkjack

01-11-07, 01:38 PM

Just wait until I add the smell, water misting and air canon modules to the room like at Walt Disney World. I'll bet MarkP is working on that next ;)

Dude. I watched that on TV last night too while I was eating dinner. :)

Mark P

01-12-07, 01:21 AM

Just wait until I add the smell, water misting and air canon modules to the room like at Walt Disney World. I'll bet MarkP is working on that next ;)No water or air cannons but I did check into the smell thing. Not real practical.

ifeliciano

01-16-07, 03:09 PM

YO Stevie Boy!!

Any updates?

swithey

01-16-07, 04:05 PM

YO Stevie Boy!!

Any updates?
Not much to talk about. I have the kitchen table just about completed. Because of the cooler temperatures we've been having, we brought it into the house to apply the poly. I have 3 coats of semi-gloss on the top and sides. It turned out pretty good. It's knotty pine with scratches from the kids -- but it does look more like furniture now vs. a craft table :) I'll try and post some pics once it is completed.

Next up (at the wife's request) is to build the cup holders/mini-condiment tables for the seating. Yes, yes I know.. why didn't I just get media seating with cup holders already installed? I'm sure everyone knows -- you pick you battles. She wanted a particular look for the seating and that look did not include a cup holder. NOW -- she wants them -- go figure :rolleyes:

Anyway, I will be building something like this. Another AVSer, EC/Eric Chong has the same chairs I have and built these. Mine will be based on this design. I have not decided if I will paint them black with stainless cups or do a full maple shelf with the stainless cups. (4) will be built -- 2 for the front and 2 for the back. I plan to build a prototype out of MDF and pine to be sure she likes it before I build them for real. It should be fun. I know I'll enjoy having them as well. I hate holding a beverage for the entire movie.

http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/Albums/Album2/Large/Natuzzi__1787.jpg http://www.drinkstuff.com/productimg/6619.jpg

Here is my 1st draft at the design -- which may change. And yes, I have to draw everything before I build :o It's so much easier to make mistakes on paper vs. in the garage after 4 hours of work. I'm still trying to figure out what to use as dead weight on the bottom plate (so the table does not tip over). I could melt some lead but not sure I like the idea of dealing with lead. I'm thinking about looking for some 1/4" thick steel pieces and stacking 2-3 of them together. Steel Buck-Shot may work as well. I also considered making some small custom concrete bricks. Any other ideas anyone?
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/CupHolder1.jpg

BTW -- how's it going on your Son's desk? Did you ever get started? Any Pics??