Slight different question: Is Infocus planning on a presentation projector based on this DMD?

I'm fairly certain the response will be: No comment. :)

Nigel

Maybe, and probably mask off 128 pixels on the sides to make it for business use only. :)

It appears that the Mitsubishi HC3000 and Optoma HD72 are 4x also. But "IF" projector Central is right, the Sharp XV-Z3000 is 5x. It might be too early to be sure if thats correct information or not, I haven't seen that directly from Sharp, or Optoma actually.

I am also interested in the dual-iris on the sharp, wondering how well that works, since they are claiming 6500:1 contrast ratio. I found the Sharp Z-2000 to be a dependable line of Projectors, just doing what they are suppose to do, come on and always work. The price point seem to be kind of at a odd place for some people, but I think it was well built.

I'm wondering now though if Infocus will have another 720P model later this year. One that is higher end verses "value", to replace the 7210. That is what a Infocus dealer that I work together in some areas with, was told. I guess there is a price between the IN76 and their 1080P model, that would interest people.

Slight different question: Is Infocus planning on a presentation projector based on this DMD?

I'm fairly certain the response will be: No comment. :)

Nigel

You are correct. To comment on our future product roadmap would risk me leaving this board forever. However, I will say that this Industrial Design was designed exclusively for home use so it would be unlikely that the form factor of such a projector would resemble this one.

Yikes, I must have missed that release, but if that's the reason why TI decided to go with a 15:9 chip then it still doesn't make any sense to me.

I thought the 1280 x 768 chip was considered to be native 16:10. That's what I gathered according to Optoma's released specs on the H72.

Bob, thanks again. The info you have given us so far sounds great to me. The online PDF for the Play Big series is somewhat limited in what it reveals as far as the full feature set of these PJ's are concerned. Could you tell us how soon all the info on the features will be available for us to peruse ?

I thought the Infocus X3 used this chip - is it only 1024x768 and not 1280x768?

1280/768 = 1.67:1

We have included imbedded test patterns for easy setup with such a screen.


Ah, I like this. It took me a long time to dial my 4805 in just right.

Bob, any chance that we can add a custom start up screen in any of these new models? I used a program someone on this forum made to change the screen on my X1. It was nice to have a start-up picture of my girl and myself with "Welcome to Our Theater" on display. A nice touch for the HT. (And if you're really bothered that I tampered with the firmware, change "I" to "some guy I know". :) ) If not, could Infocus consider this option in future updates or products?

Thanks,
George

Bob - could you comment on the lens/optics/focus mechanism of these new PJs versus the 4805. The brochure mentions 12 element, all glass, rack and pinion, etc.

Thanks!
Jeff

The lower the color wheel refresh, the higher the true bit depth and the less motion panning artifacts there are because the DLP device is on more of the time (fewer spokes to go through each frame). We do not currently have 5x wheels on any of our products.

Thank you for the reply but I'm not quite sure I follow you. Doesn't the SP72xx have 5x wheels or are you saying that products belonging in this subforum hasn't had 5x?

4x for NTSC would mean 240Hz color refresh, am I right? Could these pj's do 5x for PAL 50Hz? Or would PAL 50Hz be 200Hz color refresh?

I'm fairly CSP-sensitive and live in PAL-country so 4x for PAL probably rules out the IN76 for me.

Thanks in advance Bob!

Can Infocus provide an ND2 filter of its own (or something similar) for these projectors? At 800 (~680 in low power, for the IN72) and 1000 (for the IN76) video optimized lumens, I imagine many people are going to complain about headaches from the eye strain (and possible rainbows).

I do not believe that this feature is on the development timeline. It required rewriting a significant portion of the software to implement because it would have changed the way our vertical image position control actually worked. We decided that the complexity of the job was not worth the effort compared to the rest of the features.

What about picture shift? Why can't Infocus include that feature for helping to bottom mask only?

Why would you make ND2 a standard accessory?
Since these new PJs have a recessed lens that is not threaded to accept the normal ND2 filters, I believe Ja Phule is asking if InFocus will be making a custom fitted filter for the projector. My guess is no.

Even though it may not look elegant when you're done, I'm sure with a little bit of tape and determination you could probably get a normal ND2 filter to work on these.

What about picture shift? Why can't Infocus include that feature for helping to bottom mask only?
The quote you referenced from Bob in your post IS his answer to why digital lens shift (i.e. picture shift) was not included...

Regarding the HDMI input, will it be possible to do a firmware update when the new HDMI 1.3 standard is released

Not too sure what all is new with 1.3, but I thought it only added new features in audio, how would this affect video?

Santa Bob:

-How's the focus continuity across the screen compared with 4805 as base? Same? Better? Noticeably better? (Not sure if I have the term right but I've always focused the middle of the screen and it seems to fall away slightly towards the edges.) This relates to JeffKBs questions about lens improvements below.

-Has there been any changes/improvements with HDCP/HDMI compatibility? My SA8300 via TWC has never maintained a handshake via DVI with the 4805. Always assumed it was TWC software but thought I'd ask in case there was some miracle in the new box (actually I would upgrade tomorrow if you said yes, its a major pain) Some new "Extended Handshake Timeout for TWC boxes" would be swell:)

-Can I construe your comments below about better CW motor to mean an end to (or significant reduction in probability of) color wheel buzzing? Or is that inherent to DLP?

Thanks again for all the great information. I buy what I know and your posts make it easy to buy IF.

Bob,

Many thanks for all the information that you have provided so far. However I do have just one question to ask regarding the 4x speed of the colour wheel. I currently have an SP4805 and am fairly sensitive to the 'rainbow effect'. Whilst I am able to ignore this most of the time it is one of the two reasons alongside HD resolution that I am considering an upgrade. How does this 4x colour wheel compare to the SP4805 ?. Bearing in mind that the IN76 is a brighter projector, am I more likely, less likely or not at all likely to notice any difference in the presence of this artifact.

Many thanks,

Tony.

If the 48 pixels are not illuminated at all then there should
not be any light spill at all.

on the other hand if those 48 pixels are just tilted to their
max. position the usual way "black" is created in DLP, then
there is going to be some spill which would be the usual
greyish looking "black bars". And in this case 2.35 would
look worse with bigger bars.

From what Bob said those 48 pixels are not illuminated. So
I presume they will be pitch black so we wont see any spill
from those 48 pixels or in other words no spill outside 16:9 screen.

Is my interpretation right?

Not too sure what all is new with 1.3, but I thought it only added new features in audio, how would this affect video?
I'm most likely wrong, but I remember reading something about needing the 1.3 version in order to receive a 1080P signal over HDMI and was thinking about the new BD/HD DVD players that will soon be out.

If that is not true, then please ignore my question and I'll delete my previous post. :)

Bob,

For ND filter usage, what is the mm size of the IN76 lens ?

I imagine many people are going to complain about headaches from the eye strain (and possible rainbows).

you won't hear me complaining ;)

I apologize if this has been addressed before. Is the new IN76 (or whatever the 720p model number is) a step up or down from the 7205/7210?

I apologize if this has been addressed before. Is the new IN76 (or whatever the 720p model number is) a step up or down from the 7205/7210?
How about a step to the side.

Even though the 7210 uses the new DC3 chip, the 76 will have higher contrast at 3000 compared to the 7210's 2800, but lower lumens at 1000 compared to 1100 for the 7210. The 7210 has a 7 segment color wheel compared to 6 segments for the 76. The 7210 uses Faroudja's DCDi and the 76 uses a Pixelworks solution.
I'd imagine the 7210 has a better lens (Zeiss) and better processing when it comes to dealing with motion artifacts but we'll have to wait and see how that pans out (pun intended :) ) The 7210 also has a lot more inputs but doesn't have an HDMI input.

The IN76 might come pretty close to the performance of 7210 and for quite a few bucks cheaper.

After a litte reflection I really think the new 1280x768 isn't a bad idea at all. You WILL get 1:1 pixel mapping at 720P. The extra 48 pixels 24 on top/bottom I believe, will be undetectable on a good blacked out bezel by 99% of viewers. However the chip comes with the controller to operate at 1280x768 and I can find no reason what-so-ever to not have a check box in the menu or even on the remote to toggle 720P/768P turning these off permenatly is lacking logic. Budget buyers tend to use their PC more than a 10K dedicated HT owner would. That really needs to be taken up with Infocus maybe with a petition from this board - there's no reason not to have those pixels and lots of reasons to have them. Bob as always your personal attention and input and replies are deeply appreciated and respected as I don't see anybody from Optoma, NEC, Mit's or Panny showing that kind of respect to the posters/buyers. I guess they feel there are better things to do than chat directly with the consumer but I guess Infocus thinks thats a good thing to do. Thanks again and I'll bet the reviews are what most here think they will be GREAT. It's my understanding that the lens element is drastically improved and the increased color bit/depth is very very nice too. One last comment, I bet from most people here it would be to get those extra pixels to toggle, we'll see but I bet 9/10 posters want the option. I can't even imagine why it wouldn't have it. Also am I correct in saying that the pixels will be split 24top/24bottom or will it be all at one end of the DMD? Thanks again. Much Respect.

From one of Bob's earlier posts :

No, it uses the DDP1010 controller which is the same as we use on the SP7210.

The quote you referenced from Bob in your post IS his answer to why digital lens shift (i.e. picture shift) was not included...

Digital lens shift is NOT the same as picture shift!

Lens shift moves the lens itself up and down and all over the place by physically moving the lens. On dlp, the mirrors compensate, like the Optoma H77 or NEC HT1100 so it works great in non-ideal setups without any keystoning/distortion.

Picture shift strictly moves the wide-screen image up/down within the frame. The lens doesn't move at all. Picture shift should be "incredibly easy to include".... and is a major deal breaker if its not there for electric screen users.

Digital lens shift is NOT the same as picture shift!

Lens shift moves the lens itself up and down and all over the place by physically moving the lens. On dlp, the mirrors compensate, like the Optoma H77 or NEC HT1100 so it works great in non-ideal setups without any keystoning/distortion.

Picture shift strictly moves the wide-screen image up/down within the frame. The lens doesn't move at all. Picture shift should be "incredibly easy to include".... and is a major deal breaker if its not there for electric screen users.
Sorry, but I believe you're mistaking an electronic lens shift with digital image shift which moves the image digitally inside the frame and I believe thet is what he was refering to when he spoke about vertical image position control.

I do not believe that this feature is on the development timeline. It required rewriting a significant portion of the software to implement because it would have changed the way our vertical image position control actually worked. We decided that the complexity of the job was not worth the effort compared to the rest of the features.

I do agree that it sure would be a nice feature to have, but in no way do I consider it a deal breaker.

Digital lens shift is NOT the same as picture shift!

Yes, it IS the same.

What you describe here is OPTICAL lens shift:

Lens shift moves the lens itself up and down and all over the place by physically moving the lens.
Digital lens shift is the ability to move a widescreen image within the 16:9 frame. It's controlled by the firmware, which, if you look back in this thread, is what Bob was discussing in your quote.

EDIT: Thanks Smithfarmer. :)

In this case its a little bit more useful since you have 24 whole pixels of extra shifting you can do.

Okay...its not that big a deal. A 3% shift?

Probably most useful in the "dang it...I'm one lousy inch off!" scenario.

Nigel

IMO the big advantage to digital lens shift is that you can move a 2.35:1 image all the way to the bottom or top of the screen and just mask one side. Once you see a masked 2.35:1 movie, you just can't go back to letterbox bars and this feature makes it a lot easier to do.

I use a Panamorph, so my 2.35:1 image is already at the bottom of my 16:9 screen (the Panamorph drops the image), but I'm thinking I may ditch the lens when I go 720p. Having to mask both the top and bottom again would be a drag...

How is it that Sharp can include "picture shift" on a $900 Sharp XR10X projector (move wide-screen image within 4:3 frame and not Infocus?

How is it that NEC can include The REAL STUFF "Optical Lens shift" on their projectors and not Infocus? These are the questions that Infocus really needs to ask themselves.... Not everybody has "perfect settings for projectors".... Believe it or not, some people actually put projectors in basements which have lower ceilings at least in the older houses; that is...
For these setups... A lens shift or picture shift projector is a must....

If lens shift is required you need either a LG AN110 (and its funny form factor) or a Optoma H78DC3 on closeout.

The NEC HT1100 is a pretty old machine (spring 2004 release) and originally MSRP'd at $4995. I assume they've recouped dev costs by now. :)

Nigel

How is it that Sharp can include "picture shift" on a $900 Sharp XR10X projector (move wide-screen image within 4:3 frame and not Infocus?

How is it that NEC can include The REAL STUFF "Optical Lens shift" on their projectors and not Infocus? These are the questions that Infocus really needs to ask themselves.... Not everybody has "perfect settings for projectors".... Believe it or not, some people actually put projectors in basements which have lower ceilings at least in the older houses; that is...
For these setups... A lens shift or picture shift projector is a must....
I think that if projectors are truly to go mainstream, optical lens shift needs to be a widespread feature. One of the reasons people shy away from projectors is that the setup is too demanding or impractical. Having optical lens shift helps to address that and makes a particular projector an option for many people who otherwise would not be able to consider it if it had a fixed offset or horizontal position. I believe the development costs to implement lens shift would have a good chance to be recouped in extra sales, although I admit I have NO idea how much lens shift costs to implement in a DLP (it's much more difficult to implement lens shift in a DLP versus LCD).

Digital lens shift is a different story however. For a 16:9 projector, it really doesn't do much to help you with installation. Sure you can move a 2.35:1 image around, but unless that's the only type of material you plan to watch, you still need to fit a 16:9 image to your wall. Digital lens shift won't help there. Sure, maybe with some of these new 15:9 DLPs you can move even the 16:9 image around, but we're just talking a few inches. You could accomplish the same thing with a slight tilt. Not including this feature isn't a huge omission, but I would have liked to see it. That's only because I mask however, and it definitely makes masking easier.

If you want to take InFocus to task for not including optical lens shift, that's fine, but you also need to take the other major players to task as well - Optoma and BenQ. I don't see them including optical lens shift on their affordable HT models. I'm not aware of any BenQ HT projectors with lens shift, and the expensive Optoma H77 only has a limited range vertical shift (no horizontal).

NEC has a limited lens shift on their low end HT410/510, but once again, it's only vertical. Also, note that although you claimed in your previous post that the NEC HT1100 has optical lens shift, it does not. It has digital lens shift only.

The bottom line is that full range (i.e. both vertical and horizontal) optical lens shift is very rare in DLP, and is non-existant at the lower price ranges (even the AN110 only offers vertical shift).

One thing you guys are missing is that if the 48 pixels aren't illuminated as Bob mentioned earlier, the full light output of the lamp is utilized as it is focussed through the 720 active pixels in the middle. Contrast this with when the 720 pixels are obtained by merely tilting the mirrors, you still have the light being focussed over the entire 768 pixels, and so you lose some fraction of the light output. I remember the days when a lot of us were using 1024x768 PJs with 16:9 screens, and losing 1/3 of the light output in the process.

So it seems like you have to give up picture shift to gain maximum light output.

So it seems like you have to give up picture shift to gain maximum light output.
That's not completely true. Digital lens shift does not depend on the number of pixels being illuminated. In other words, the option could have existed to move a widescreen image within those 720 illuminated pixels (as I mentioned, very useful for masking). :)

Bob, can you comment on possible problems with projected light leakage on the unused parts of the DMD?
The black pixels will appear exactly like letterbox bars in the image. If you choose to mask them with your screen border they'll go away completely. They have no effect on the rest of the image.

Yikes, I must have missed that release, but if that's the reason why TI decided to go with a 15:9 chip then it still doesn't make any sense to me.

Business projection is still all about 4:3. The vast majority of computer monitors are still 4:3, and therefore so are the vast majority of business PJs. Even if a company was interested in getting a 16:9 business PJ, do you think they really care about the image improvements gained by not having to scale 1280 (or 1024) x 768 with the 15:9 chip?! Heck, at my company they don't even bother to try to install the projectors at the height appropriate to their offset - they just tilt it and keystone like crazy!

And certainly nobody in the HT market was clamoring for these either.

Oh well, I guess I just have to get use to the idea of 15:9 if I want a low cost 720p DLP. Hmmmm.....nobody in the Mits HC3000 thread seems to be complaining about this so maybe this issue is overblown.

Just to chime in here on this. More than half of all laptops these days are wide screen, with a significant number having exactly 1280x768 resolution. Almost everyone who uses a projector in a meeting room uses a laptop. I personally believe that the days of 4:3 monitors are numbered.

JeffKB....

Actually I am more taking Infocus to task because they are not including Picture Shift. Picture Shift is a Must in any projector I buy, because I own an electric screen and with black paint on the wall have "perfect masking" with Picture Shift projectors.....

With Optical Lens shift, I can accomplish the same thing as Picture Shift.... hency why Optical Lens Shift is preferred since it also helps with installation and ensuring a distortion free picture. Vertical Lens Shift is far better than No Lens Shift at all.....

Because Infocus doesn't include "Picture Shift" or "Lens Shift" in their projectors, I can't see myself buying another Infocus Projector until they do... (I currently own the Infocus X1 which is now sitting on a shelf waiting to be sold soon or used as a spare)....

Unfortunately, I am seeing very little differentiation between the different brands of projectors... They all seem to be having the same levels of contrast and using the same parts... and now probably all being made in the same plant in China....

JeffKB....

Actually I am more taking Infocus to task because they are not including Picture Shift. Picture Shift is a Must in any projector I buy, because I own an electric screen and with black paint on the wall have "perfect masking" with Picture Shift projectors.....

Hi Edward - I definitely see where you're coming from. Masking is certainly easier with that functionality, regardless of how you are masking. Unfortunately you and I seem to be in the small minority who actually do mask and who place great importance on being able to do so. Because of that, digital lens shift (or picture shift, whatever we agree to call it :D), unfortunately seems to get overlooked when it comes time to design the firmware. InFocus isn't alone however. This feature is uncommon with other manufacturers as well.

Just to chime in here on this. More than half of all laptops these days are wide screen, with a significant number having exactly 1280x768 resolution. Almost everyone who uses a projector in a meeting room uses a laptop. I personally believe that the days of 4:3 monitors are numbered.
Point well taken Bob. :)

Hi Edward - I definitely see where you're coming from. Masking is certainly easier with that functionality, regardless of how you are masking. Unfortunately you and I seem to be in the small minority who actually do mask and who place great importance on being able to do so.

I agree 100%. I currently have the H31 and couldn't live (happily at least) without the image shift for 2.35:1 material. My only gripe with Optoma is that it's not a remote button - kind of a pain to have to do it from the menu.

-Mike

So Bob get to work on the expanded native mode that covers XGA, WXGA, and HD - then everyone will be happy. But get the projector out next week as well so everyone will be happy. And cut the price $1K so everyone will be happy. And give it the same lens as the SP777 so everyone will be happy!
Kras, did you get enough sleep last night ?

You forgot to mention the free screen of our choice, free ceiling mount, free Bravo dvd player for 1:1 pixel mapping and the ISF certified Playboy Bunnies that will do the free install for us ;)

Could you tell us how soon all the info on the features will be available for us to peruse ?
I'm not sure, but I might be able to post the user guide here if that would be helpful. I will ask.

Bob, any chance that we can add a custom start up screen in any of these new models? I used a program someone on this forum made to change the screen on my X1. It was nice to have a start-up picture of my girl and myself with "Welcome to Our Theater" on display. A nice touch for the HT. (And if you're really bothered that I tampered with the firmware, change "I" to "some guy I know". :) ) If not, could Infocus consider this option in future updates or products?
The IN72 has a user customizable splash screen. Due to some technical issues, the IN74 and IN76 do not have this feature but we plan to add it if possible at a future date.

ISF certified Playboy Bunnies that will do the free installAlright! Alright! I'll buy it. Stop twisting my arm.

Bob - could you comment on the lens/optics/focus mechanism of these new PJs versus the 4805. The brochure mentions 12 element, all glass, rack and pinion, etc.
The IN72 has similar optics to the SP4805 but we did do some extra optimizations for increased contrast and black uniformity. The IN74 and IN76 share a new projection lens designed for closer throw than previous home products. All of these new projectors feature focus and zoom control via two concentric knobs on the top. These connect via a rack and pinion system to the barrels of the lenses.

Thank you for the reply but I'm not quite sure I follow you. Doesn't the SP72xx have 5x wheels or are you saying that products belonging in this subforum hasn't had 5x?

4x for NTSC would mean 240Hz color refresh, am I right? Could these pj's do 5x for PAL 50Hz? Or would PAL 50Hz be 200Hz color refresh?

I'm fairly CSP-sensitive and live in PAL-country so 4x for PAL probably rules out the IN76 for me.

Thanks in advance Bob!
The SP7200, SP7205, and SP7210 have 4x color wheels. That would be 240 Hz for NTSC and 200 Hz for PAL.

Since these new PJs have a recessed lens that is not threaded to accept the normal ND2 filters, I believe Ja Phule is asking if InFocus will be making a custom fitted filter for the projector. My guess is no.

Even though it may not look elegant when you're done, I'm sure with a little bit of tape and determination you could probably get a normal ND2 filter to work on these.
We do not plan to have a custom filter for these projectors.

-How's the focus continuity across the screen compared with 4805 as base? Same? Better? Noticeably better? (Not sure if I have the term right but I've always focused the middle of the screen and it seems to fall away slightly towards the edges.) This relates to JeffKBs questions about lens improvements below.
The specification is the same as the SP4805 for focus uniformity, however the planarity of the DLP devices has been getting better recently so I would expect overall that the focus uniformity would be better.

-Has there been any changes/improvements with HDCP/HDMI compatibility? My SA8300 via TWC has never maintained a handshake via DVI with the 4805. Always assumed it was TWC software but thought I'd ask in case there was some miracle in the new box (actually I would upgrade tomorrow if you said yes, its a major pain) Some new "Extended Handshake Timeout for TWC boxes" would be swell:)
In the new projectors we are using a Silicon Image dual HDMI receiver (for the 2 digital ports). Also, the HDMI logo requires extensive compatibility testing in a third party lab, and we have passed all of those tests. Therefore compatibility should be better than before.

-Can I construe your comments below about better CW motor to mean an end to (or significant reduction in probability of) color wheel buzzing? Or is that inherent to DLP?
The quality and lifetime of the new motors are greater than before. I do not expect color wheel noise to be a big issue with this new platform.

I don't see what the big issue is, those 48 pixels will be absorbed by your screen's border anyway unless you are using a white wall. That's how you deal with it.

i have a hc3000 and the "extra bars" do not extend over the frame on my 110" carada screen, i have never noticed them. i think people are making too big of a deal over this.

muncey

I don't see what the big issue is, those 48 pixels will be absorbed by your screen's borderI don't understand the hullabaloo either but, FYI, on a 92" screen, the 48 pixels amount to 1.5" on top and bottom. This is wider than many screen borders.

ok I guess it isnt as bad as I thought.

I don't understand the hullabaloo either but, FYI, on a 92" screen, the 48 pixels amount to 1.5" on top and bottom. This is wider than many screen borders.

you meant "narrower than"?
if it is wider than the border then we need a bigger border :-)

if it is wider than the border then we need a bigger borderI agree. =[;-)

I'm not sure, but I might be able to post the user guide here if that would be helpful. I will ask.
Bob, I think I can speak for all of us here - "That would be great. Thank you". :)

In may '04 I took everyone's advice to stop reading this forum obsessively AFTER you get the HT done and hang your projector. My SP 5700 has been a lot of fun over almost two years-not without some hiccups, but my dealer and mostly IF customer service have kept me very happy. I am an IF fanboy of sorts. Having started with an X1 in 2003.

The 5700 is too loud. A very discounted Sharp DT300 is about to be hung by a neighbor and its obsenely quiet compared to my 5700 (though not as bright). Next door neighbor did a Sony HS50 right after I did my 5700-again, really, really quiet. So I hope they've learned how to get these things as quiet as the competition.

It looks like they've worked to keep the brightness-my favorite feature. The bright picture does not detract from movie viewing in my room, and it really adds to football type get togethers. I need almost no calibration, whereas my HS50 neighbor needed lots. This is also a superb feature of these PJs.

The dealer only strategy costs IF sales, unfortunately. My dealer was not local, but did a great job of working through my questions & concerns. And his price was competitive with the "market" for 576p projectors at that time. Notice both friends/neighbors wouldn't consider buying anywhere but the internet. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I expect that IF is going to have to start allowing more public price comeptition-which is the problem. A Click & Buy price is what people expect now. "Call or email for Best price" gets passed over.

The 5700 had a very long throw for an IF PJ. I expect these new ones to be more like the 7200 and 7205. Meaning I'd be back in the attic and have holes to patch. Maybe enough to keep me on the sideline if the 76 is as good as it sounds.

I shouldn't have come back. Upgraditis is a terible thing.......

Welcome back rlundy... Your wallet is in trouble now :)

Sound and sealed optics were two things I was definitely interested in when comparing projectors when it was time for me to upgrade.... The Infocus X1 was noisy compared to other friends' setups.... One of the reasons why I overlooked the Infocus X3 when it was time for me to upgrade to a higher quality 4:3 projector compared to the competition; namely the Sharp XR-10X.... that and of course; the Sharp had PICTURE SHIFT!

I really did want to buy another Infocus projector... Heck I still own the "Mandarax" mount which only works with Infocus projectors... (Of course; I don't think it will work with these new upgraded models...)

Bob - I just wanted to thank you again for taking time out of your busy day to answer our questions. I think we all realize that it's not something you have to do, but rather choose to do, and we very much appreciate it. :)

The final question I have is really a non-specific one, and please feel free to disregard any or all of it if you wish:

Is there anything you'd like to tell us about these projectors that maybe no one would think to ask about? Perhaps an internal design feature that you're particularly proud of, or a new bit of firmware functionality that you think is cool? Also, since we're all AV geeks and would probably find it very interesting, are there any anecdotal stories about their development that you'd like to share?

The SP7200, SP7205, and SP7210 have 4x color wheels. That would be 240 Hz for NTSC and 200 Hz for PAL.

Thats is interesting, but I've never heard that before. I cannot say I ever remember any review, specifications list or anybody saying that. But, I do know that 4x is not what I thought they were, and its always been reported in what I did read, that it was 5x. The information I saw they give to dealers said 5x also, unless I am dreaming.

Even the infocus site still lists the SP7200 at 5x.

http://www.infocus.com/service/sp7200/specifications.asp?site_lang=1&site_region=1&

I've always like the Screenplay line, even though I see rainbows somewhat quicker than some brands. I assumed it was because they are usually more bright, or just one of those things.

Not to question the head guru Bob - but this was on the dealer training for SP7205. Have we all been misinformed :confused:

"
Proprietary auto-calibrating, 7-segment, 5x color wheel
6500K color temperature
Increased bit depth
Dark scene enhancement

"
Well, the 7200 in its original specification had a 5x colorwheel. However, 5x did not work with our lamp flicker reduction circuit and it was changed to 4x shortly before shipping. I think that the change may not have made it into all of the marketing literature in time, and since then the various platforms may have simply built upon the old information. I don't know exactly what happened, this is just my speculation.

I apologize if this has been addressed before. Is the new IN76 (or whatever the 720p model number is) a step up or down from the 7205/7210?
The IN76 is replacing the SP5000 at the low end of our 720p offerings. The SP7205 and SP7210 are step ups in terms of on the wall performance (via their 7-segment color wheels, Zeiss optics, and extra brightness) and connectivity.

Originally Posted by dmcdayton
-How's the focus continuity across the screen compared with 4805 as base? Same? Better? Noticeably better? (Not sure if I have the term right but I've always focused the middle of the screen and it seems to fall away slightly towards the edges.) This relates to JeffKBs questions about lens improvements below.

The specification is the same as the SP4805 for focus uniformity, however the planarity of the DLP devices has been getting better recently so I would expect overall that the focus uniformity would be better.


Bob, does this apply to just the IN72, or does it include the IN74 and IN76 as well ?

Well, the 7200 in its original specification had a 5x colorwheel. However, 5x did not work with our lamp flicker reduction circuit and it was changed to 4x shortly before shipping. I think that the change may not have made it into all of the marketing literature in time, and since then the various platforms may have simply built upon the old information. I don't know exactly what happened, this is just my speculation.

Well, thats quite a long string of bad information, isn't it? Of course does it really matter whether its 4x or 5x, since everyone is mostly happy with the performance? I guess not but those PJ's have always been quoted having a 5x color wheel, until now.

So, since you are comparing the IN76 with the SP5000. thats means Infocus will come out with another 720P sometime later this year, after the 7205 & 7210 are slowly faded out, thats my guess.

The IN76 has to be a step from the LCD SP5000 though, even if thats what its replacing.

Bob,

How would you compare the quietness of the IN76 to the 7205 and 7210, since the latter two don't benefit from the new design?

Thank you,
George

Many thanks for all the information that you have provided so far. However I do have just one question to ask regarding the 4x speed of the colour wheel. I currently have an SP4805 and am fairly sensitive to the 'rainbow effect'. Whilst I am able to ignore this most of the time it is one of the two reasons alongside HD resolution that I am considering an upgrade. How does this 4x colour wheel compare to the SP4805 ?. Bearing in mind that the IN76 is a brighter projector, am I more likely, less likely or not at all likely to notice any difference in the presence of this artifact.
The visibility of the rainbow effect is proportional to the brightness of the image. I suggest that if you have trouble with the rainbows you see on your SP4805 then you need to go to a larger image when you upgrade to the IN76 to get the image down to the same brightness or less than what you currently have. The good news is that you can do that because the pixels are smaller with the IN76 720p display and the lens throw is wider from the same distance as the SP4805. The screen calculators will tell you what your current brightness is off of the screen in foot lamberts - just make sure that the new projector is no brighter than your old one.

Not too sure what all is new with 1.3, but I thought it only added new features in audio, how would this affect video?
1080p (in pretty much all conceivable flavors) support is included in HDMI 1.1. The new line of projectors have HDMI receivers that are designed for the HDMI 1.1 standard.

In a related question: Will it support 1:1 pixel map at 1280x768 in case I want to hook my future Mac Book Pro to the projector? Or are we limited to 1280x720?
It will 1:1 pixel map to a 1280x768 source (digital or analog) with no problem. You will only get the center 1280x720 part of the image, however.

So Bob get to work on the expanded native mode that covers XGA, WXGA, and HD - then everyone will be happy. But get the projector out next week as well so everyone will be happy. And cut the price $1K so everyone will be happy. And give it the same lens as the SP777 so everyone will be happy!
As Bill Cosby once said, I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody.

How would you compare the quietness of the IN76 to the 7205 and 7210, since the latter two don't benefit from the new design?
I will put it this way. The IN76, in its noisiest high power mode, is quieter than the SP7205 in its quietest low power mode. The color wheel noise is also much lower.

Bob, does this apply to just the IN72, or does it include the IN74 and IN76 as well ?
Sorry, that would be the IN72. The IN74 and IN76, which share the same lens, have a tighter focus tolerance and a sharper image, partly due to the fact that the 720p DLP device has smaller pixels and requires it.

Sorry, that would be the IN72. The IN74 and IN76, which share the same lens, have a tighter focus tolerance and a sharper image, partly due to the fact that the 720p DLP device has smaller pixels and requires it.

Re: The IN74

Why is this PJ only sold through Pro shops so to speak? I think 576P is enough for me to watch a 106" image from thirteen feet without seeing SDE. I like to support the local B&M but if they aren't discounting the PJ at all, I will likely consider a 720P LCD as the price is so close. OTOH, maybe the IN76 will be down to around $2,000 by the fall?

Greg

Is there anything you'd like to tell us about these projectors that maybe no one would think to ask about? Perhaps an internal design feature that you're particularly proud of, or a new bit of firmware functionality that you think is cool? Also, since we're all AV geeks and would probably find it very interesting, are there any anecdotal stories about their development that you'd like to share?

The things I am most proud of with this platform are the refinements. Many of the team members are the same as the ones who worked on the SP4805 and the production line is in the same building, and everyone is impressed that we have gone from a business projector slightly modified for home use to a full-fledged no-complaints home theater product. Every system and subsystem have been improved for home users. We made a list of all the complaints and suggestions and implemented everything we could and still have a value product. This is our first grounds up platform designed specifically for home use, and we took that task seriously.

The biggest single difference from a performance standpoint between the new line and the old X1/X2/SP48xx platform is the airflow design. The new design provides for minimal light leakage and minimal escaping of noise, while improving maintenance with a screen-less, non-outgassing lamp enclosure. The new design allowed us to put all of the connectors in the back where they belong and not worry about vents there. It also got rid of all light leaks out the front and cleaned up the look of the product tremendously.

Right now the design team, located on two continents, is working night and day crossing the "t"s and dotting the "i"s in preparation for mass production. I'm writing these responses in between optical tests on our pre-production units and I think I am a little bit too close to the project right now to really give you anything anecdotal that wouldn't read like a pessimistic story (engineers are paid pessimists you know). Ask me again in a month or so.

Bob,

From what I've read so far, other than the digital image shifting feature, it really sounds like you guys have pretty much covered all the bases and thrown in an extra feature or two nobody expected (gotta love that flashlight remote) .

Your team has to be pretty excited to see how the reception from the early adapters turns out for the Play Big series. Will Infocus be sending out any preproduction units to select media outlets for reviews any time soon ?

Well, the 7200 in its original specification had a 5x colorwheel. However, 5x did not work with our lamp flicker reduction circuit and it was changed to 4x shortly before shipping. I think that the change may not have made it into all of the marketing literature in time, and since then the various platforms may have simply built upon the old information. I don't know exactly what happened, this is just my speculation.

Bob, thank you for the explanation.

Re: The IN74

Why is this PJ only sold through Pro shops so to speak? I think 576P is enough for me to watch a 106" image from thirteen feet without seeing SDE. I like to support the local B&M but if they aren't discounting the PJ at all, I will likely consider a 720P LCD as the price is so close. OTOH, maybe the IN76 will be down to around $2,000 by the fall?

Greg


The information I read that's available for dealers said there will be a "EX" on the end of the model number. So, unless me an the dealer didin't exactly understand, which I think we did, the INxx line will be available through other outlets. The "EX" will supposely give dealers something to say its "different"........ Which I doubt will make a dealer all that happy.

A quick Froogle shows numerous sites with the IN76 for sale at very competitive prices. Obviously it's not out yet, but is it safe to assume that the street price will be around these numbers when it's finally released? As in do the dealers already know what their margins will be and have decided on these prices?

One more thing, i know there's been lots of talk in this thread about various types of lens and digital shift to maximize the positioning of the projector, but real simply, will there be any type of shift at all, or will it be a matter of positioning the projector in the exact center of the screen? I plan on positioning the projector in the center anyway, but not having to be that extra inch or so perfect is always handy.

BrilliantColor is not included in any of the new projectors.
I imagine this is in part because you are not using the controller that is needed to implement it. However did you look at the possiblity of implementing BC and decide it was not worth it or was it not an option because of the controller you decided to use?

Thanks
Peter

Just be aware that Infocus has decided to provide enhanced performance models to your local dealer to give you an incentive to use the local dealer.



Kras,

Is this a practice that Infocus has already been doing, or is this something new for these newer models? What kind of performance enhancements?

I personnally bought my 4805 online (although they are an authorized dealer) because the three local B & M shops I tried were bad for different reasons. The one shop didn't carry the lower Infocus models in stock, but could order me one if I really wanted. However, they had a nice Runco model that I'd be better off with. The other shop tried showing me the 7200 as if it were the 4805. Whether or not it was intentional didn't matter to me, the fact that the sales staff was so unknowledgeable was what bothered me. The third shop had that "A $1500 projector? Why don't you go to Wal-Mart and buy a tv or something" elitist type attitude. I guess the point of all this is did I miss out on some features by not dealing with either of those shops?

And on another topic, will you be getting any of these models and provide us with one of your reviews?

George

is it safe to assume that the street price will be around these numbers when it's finally released?

yes

kras

actually, until recently, even the SP5000 and SP4805 were limited distribution to end-user direct or retail only dealers. they did not have wide tier 1 channel distribution, i.e.; ingram's and tech data's of the world. the gloves are off now though and their IN72 and IN76 will be available to just about anybody with a disti account. good news for the end-user and probably not a big deal for someone like you who can add value. i have no idea what their plans are long term, the 72XX series are still not listed. so i'm guessing nothing's changed there.

also, not sure about the whole WA A/V wiring requring an electrician. i did all mine under permit on our basement remodel. all i had to do was prove UL listing on everything. possible it's changed though, this was a year ago.

cheers

In my opinion Infocus didnt set the price at all, Sony panasonic and Optoma set the market price with the Z4, AE900 and HD72. Their is no way the IN76 could survive in the market at $2999.

The HD72 was my #1 choice but the offset simply will not work for me.

Surely you have see the threads from DIY saying they ran an orange extension cord by notching out the floor joists wanting to know if that was OK (and they held it up by wrapping the A/V cord around it. (NO!)!.


LOL, yeah, too funny. Yeah, had I had the budget, I would have hired it out, but it was just too big of an opportunity for savings, especially when you're talking about a major remodel. I made mistakes too, but oh well. Nothing I couldn't fix. I still have a ton of RG6 to terminate! Let's just say I planned for some serious multi-room action and I haven't even had a chance to make it all work yet. Heck, I'll leave it for the next guy. :D They'll probably look at it and go WTF was this guy thinking!!! :D

I still have a ton of RG6 to terminate!Me too!! :(

I've always used industrial strength BNC and UHF connectors but have never before had to fall to the level of using RCA connectors! Yech. I hate terminating coax cable at the best of times but when the connector isn't designed for the cable it's awful!

What is the recognized, quality A/V RCA connector used by the AVS pros? Does it require a special tool?

I've considered having some local AV specialist company come out just to terminate those stupid lines but I've been procrastinating ;)

The things I am most proud of with this platform are the refinements. Many of the team members are the same as the ones who worked on the SP4805 and the production line is in the same building, and everyone is impressed that we have gone from a business projector slightly modified for home use to a full-fledged no-complaints home theater product. Every system and subsystem have been improved for home users. We made a list of all the complaints and suggestions and implemented everything we could and still have a value product. This is our first grounds up platform designed specifically for home use, and we took that task seriously.

The biggest single difference from a performance standpoint between the new line and the old X1/X2/SP48xx platform is the airflow design. The new design provides for minimal light leakage and minimal escaping of noise, while improving maintenance with a screen-less, non-outgassing lamp enclosure. The new design allowed us to put all of the connectors in the back where they belong and not worry about vents there. It also got rid of all light leaks out the front and cleaned up the look of the product tremendously.

Right now the design team, located on two continents, is working night and day crossing the "t"s and dotting the "i"s in preparation for mass production. I'm writing these responses in between optical tests on our pre-production units and I think I am a little bit too close to the project right now to really give you anything anecdotal that wouldn't read like a pessimistic story (engineers are paid pessimists you know). Ask me again in a month or so.

Bob
All the goodies you had mentioned like low noise, better air path, less light spill from front etc etc. apply only to IN74 and 76 or to all the 3 models?.

My main complaint about 4805(sorry if I had been over critical) was the fan noise and if I am not mistaken people also had color wheel noise after using the unit for an year or so, especially X1.
As long as the focus on IN72 isnt worse than 4805 no problem.


One more thing that bothered me about X1 was its brightness non-uniformity.
I am sure you might have read about complaints from people that the lower left corner of the image (especially in blank black image) was significantly brighter than the rest (table mounted). This was more noticeable for smaller images
like I had (some 65+ diagonal) and dark scenes. People who had larger images didnt see this nonuniformity.

compared to X1, 4805 had much better uniformity. Almost unnoticeable.

How would you compare the brightness uniformity of 72 and 76 to x1 and 4805.
As long as it is better than 4805 no problem.

Another question regarding zoom modes. 4805 had a mode using which I could zoom 4:3 and fit it in 16:9 screen. Ofcourse I lose some 1/4th the image on top and bottom but it was fine for me. Do 72 and 76 also have those modes?


Thanks

I will put it this way. The IN76, in its noisiest high power mode, is quieter than the SP7205 in its quietest low power mode. The color wheel noise is also much lower.

Bob
Very pleased to hear that but since my budjet is more towards
IN72 let me ask you this.

How would you compare the fan noise of IN72 with 4805.
If you tell me that IN72 at its high power mode is quieter than
4805 at its low power mode, I will be the first one to review
IN72 at AVS :-)

Thanks

cavu

i went out and invested in a $150 compression crimper. One similar to the kind the cable contractors use. It has two fittings, one for type-f and one for RCA. The RCA ends, I get from a local installer supply store. They typically only sell to installers, but alow end-users to purchase there as well (without a discount of course). They cost me about $1.25 per end. One end is two pieces, the outer jacket and the inside pin. It's slick as snot really, you strip the RG6 like you would for a type-F, push the pin on until it "clicks" and then slide the outer jacket over and crimp it. Top notch, and I haven't had one fail yet and I've done a ton. You can get the compression style pieces at home depot and lowe, but they're super expensive. If I remember right, they're like $20 for a half dozen ends. If you have any other questions just pm me. happy friday :D sorry, back on topic :)

Bob
Very pleased to hear that but since my budjet is more towards
IN72 let me ask you this.

How would you compare the fan noise of IN72 with 4805.
If you tell me that IN72 at its high power mode is quieter than
4805 at its low power mode, I will be the first one to review
IN72 at AVS :-)

Thanks

I'll let Bob answer, but I'm guessing it's the same. It's the same case which one could guess means the same airflow and I'm guessing the same fan and power supply.

Bob,

Thank you for answering all of our questions so far and for your thoughts on what you're proud of, etc. Very good information. I can say that even with the competition from Optoma, the Mits, Sharp, and LCDs, I'm leaning strongly towards buying an IN76 this year. I've had nothing but good experiences so far with Infocus products, having had both the X1 and 4805. I currently have 3100 hours on my 4805 and it's still looking great. I like the plug and play aspect of the projectors being mostly calibrated right out of the box. And the fact that you have been answering our questions is a definite plus.

When I bought my 4805, I was thinking about jumping to 720p right away, but I went with the cheaper choice for a few reasons. I knew I could justify to myself upgrading sooner by spending less. I knew I didn't need HD resolution yet. And the rave reviews of the 4805 were hard to ignore. Plus, I figured that an extra year of technology would bring me an even better 720p product for the money.

The IN76 sounds like a winner so far and should hold me over until I can get a 1080p projector in this <$3500 forum. I was hoping for a 4805 with 720p and it looks like it'll be even better than that.

Talk to you all later,
George

Damn it on the IN76 and that it is not going to offer real 1024x768. Serious blow to my motivation to replace my 4805, at least with an Infocus product. We'll have to see the HD72 prices out and compares. If I'm stuck with just DVD, PS2, and XBox, I might as well just stay 480p. Was really looking forward to trying out Farcry and such on the HT. Sorry, but 720 vertical, wasting my time. 768 is already bad enough.

My venting said, is there any expectation of the IN76 seeing real XGA support being enabled at some point? Or are the chips physically modified? Or is the controller being used not sufficient to do the 16:9/4:3 mix? Etc. I guess if all else fails and the IN72 streets for a grand, I'd sell the 4805 and get that one just to reduce the vacuum cleaner emulation.

I'd sell the 4805 and get that one just to reduce the vacuum cleaner emulation.

:D :D

It will 1:1 pixel map to a 1280x768 source (digital or analog) with no problem. You will only get the center 1280x720 part of the image, however.

ROFL...why do I read that as "Which part of we only show the center 720 pixels did you not understand?"

Thanks Bob. :)

Nigel

The biggest difference I see between the IN76 and the HD72 is the 1080P de-interlacing. on Over The Air broadcast in 1080i with the HD72 thats what you'll get, so the Faroudja chip won't be doing much but on the IN76 it will be upscaled to 1080P. I love DCDi and when I've seen it in action it's worked miracles. I have never seen the Pixelworks scaler but just figure it rocks since Infocus is using it. On the HD72 with a future Blue-Ray or HD-DVD player the 1080i wont be a big deal as those player will probably come with killer decoder/de-interlacers in one form or fashion or maybe Blu-Ray and HD-DVD's are all 1080P to start with, can't remember. But FREE over the air 1080i should look fabulous on the IN76. What do the rest here think about the DCDi vs the Pixelworks features. What other work does the Faroudja chip do on a 1080i signal?

Bob...... I looked for you at CES, but did not find you around the InFocus booth.

1. Thank you for your contributions to this thread. I am amazed at the time and energy you have devoted to answering questions here... were it so that all companies were so well represented!

2. I am wondering about the lumens spec's in the brochure I picked up at CES. Are the lumens reported (900 if I remember correctly) the "calibrated" D65 lumens that we can normally count on from InFocus?

................

To the gentleman who asked the HDMI question concerning his SA8300 HD-DVR. I spoke with the SA reps at CES because my brother also has issues with this problem... he can go directly to his InFocus rear projection TV with no problems, but when he tries to route the signal through his Yamaha 2600 the system reports that the display does not support HDCP. The SA folks admitted that this is "their" fault and that they are working on a fix. Many of the local cable companies have a "beta" fix available to them for testing... I would suggest you contact your cable provider's upper level tech support people and ask them to "push" this beta fix to your box (they can do this ... if they will). The SA folks have known about this problem for some time, but they feel they have bigger fish to fry so it has not received a lot of attention. I had a chance to talk to the head guy on the 8300 program and he claims only about 2% of his calls are about the HDMI problem... so they spend most of their efforts where the biggest problems are...... hope this helps.

That's good info to know as I also have the 8300. Thanks for posting it.

I think all of us here agree with you on your thoughts about Bob posting info and answering our questions. It's a very rare practice and greatly appreciated.

What happened, I have been coming back to the forum each day for new news in this thread, and for the first time it doesn't have a new post. Are all of you heartbroken Bronco fans like me? :(

Are all of you heartbroken Bronco fans like me?Who are the Broncos?

Who are the Broncos?

Canadians.......... ;)

Broncos?! I'm still mad that my Browns still stink since coming back to the NFL. And to add salt to the wound, the Steelers are in the Super Bowl!

As for the thread, I can't think of any more questions to ask about the IN76. I'm really anxious to see some reviews of it, with comparisons to the its main competition.

So if I am understanding this correct, the in76 will NOT be a replacement for the 7205/7210? That probably means we'll see another projector coming out later this year? In78 anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanC
is it safe to assume that the street price will be around these numbers when it's finally released?

yes
While I agree that these street prices will likely continue once the unit is released, many of these dealers are probably already offering the unit for less than what Infocus allows for online sales. Infocus just sent out a round of strongly phrased letters reminding delaers that they are not allowed to sell the 4805 online for less than $1099 (minus rebate). You may have noticed that most reputable online dealers complied and raised the price on the 4805. Others, like that jungle animal one that briefly landed on the "unauthorized delears" list for similar practices, did not. It remains to be seen how Infocus will react to below MAP pricing on the Big Play series and what leverage, if any, they have with renegade delears.

On the consumer side, sometimes it pays to call online delears that post the MAP price just to check if they will sell the unit for less than what they offer online -- often they will.

I have a question which is probably more general in nature, but since I'm planning on getting this projector, it seemed like a good place to ask it.

I get Hi-Def through Comcast, and the box can be switched from 1080i to 720p depending on your TV. My question is, for a projector such as this with its own deinterlacer, does it make more sense to set the cable box to the resolution of the broadcast, or to leave it at 720p all of the time? The same question applies to the upcoming HD disc formats. Thanks.

What happened, I have been coming back to the forum each day for new news in this thread, and for the first time it doesn't have a new post. Are all of you heartbroken Bronco fans like me? :(

No...I am a giddy Steelers fan...who is having an Optoma HD72 delivered to me the first week of Feb.

But, I still am curious about IF new line...but I have to agree to earlier posts about purchasing. I currently own the X1...but I didn't get it until Best Buy had it for sale. I purchased the HD72 through Projector People. Why IF thinks they can still try to be a "boutique" line I am not getting...lets get this stuff to the masses. I also am curious how the 76 will be priced...I have given up hope on release date and price at this point for IF.

I get Hi-Def through Comcast, and the box can be switched from 1080i to 720p depending on your TV.The majority of HD channels broadcast in 1080i so it is best to leave the Moto at 1080i. I believe ABC and ESPN are two that broadcast in 720p; for casual watching I would leave the Moto at 1080i but if there is some spectacular sports event on those channels I would switch the Moto to 720p on the basis that that will require the minimum amount of signal processing and the fast motion of a sports event might look better in native 720p - but even as I say that, I have never noticed any improvement. It's a half dozen keystrokes one way or the other - not a big deal to change on the fly.

Why IF thinks they can still try to be a "boutique" line I am not getting...lets get this stuff to the masses.
Only the IN74EX is exclusive to the custom HT dealers (i.e. boutiques). I believe IF plans to have widespread distribution of the IN76 and IN72 just like the 4805.

Wow, I would hate to have to watch the Bungles on a big screen in HD. It probably reveals even more what pretenders they are. I feel bad for Carson, but the hit was clean. The one thing they teach all O-lineman is never push your guy inside in that situation (when he's falling).
Anyway, I am excited as well for the new Infocus line. I love the black. Maybe I'll paint a little yellow 7 on the side.

With my lower lumen X1, I was only able to discern the roll of Kimo as nothing more than intentially trying to alter the pass of Palmer. The truth of the matter is, will the IN76 be able to fully display the deep blacks of the Steelers uniforms as well as the competing DLPs. I am thinking that the 5000:1 HD72 will prevail. But, who knows...maybe the IN76 will help out with dithering and those Bengal stripes.

As far as IF's dedication to mass production...we will see. I was talking more of the click and buy variety.

As far as IF's dedication to mass production...we will see. I was talking more of the click and buy variety.
Plenty of click and buy availability on the 4805. I expect the same for the IN72/76. :)

Hey - you're from Texas, aren't you supposed to be a Cowboys fan!?!? :D

While I agree that these street prices will likely continue once the unit is released, many of these dealers are probably already offering the unit for less than what Infocus allows for online sales. Infocus just sent out a round of strongly phrased letters reminding delaers that they are not allowed to sell the 4805 online for less than $1099 (minus rebate). You may have noticed that most reputable online dealers complied and raised the price on the 4805. Others, like that jungle animal one that briefly landed on the "unauthorized delears" list for similar practices, did not. It remains to be seen how Infocus will react to below MAP pricing on the Big Play series and what leverage, if any, they have with renegade delears.

On the consumer side, sometimes it pays to call online delears that post the MAP price just to check if they will sell the unit for less than what they offer online -- often they will.

I hope some of you guys realize that buying an Infocus projector from places like cheapassprojectors.com, i.e., unauthorized online vendors, means that your unit will have no warranty. I'd rather spend a few bucks more and know that I'm getting mine with a warranty that will be honored by Infocus.

I'd also like to point out that I think these posts concerning discounted prices are more than likely insulting to
Bob Williams who has been kind enough to answer our many questions regarding the new line up. I wouldn't be surprised at all if we see no further comments from him.

I hope some of you guys realize that buying an Infocus projector from places like cheapassprojectors.com, i.e., unauthorized online vendors, means that your unit will have no warranty. I'd rather spend a few bucks more and know that I'm getting mine with a warranty that will be honored by Infocus.

I'd also like to point out that I think these posts concerning discounted prices are more than likely insulting to
Bob Williams who has been kind enough to answer our many questions regarding the new line up. I wouldn't be surprised at all if we see no further comments from him.

No offense smithfarmer, but I doubt Bob really cares. We're not talking about pricing in a way that reflects poorly on Bob or his product and technically any pricing discussed here other than msrp is pure speculation. Plenty of authorized dealers are going to cary the INXX products at aggressive pricing and people who "get" the value add they pay for from installers and specialty AV dealers are going to pay more and be comfortable with that.

We all appreciate Bob taking the time to stop by here and fill in the blanks. It's way above and beyond. We're all here because we want answers and are looking forward to their next release. Bob, thanks again.

No offense smithfarmer, but I doubt Bob really cares. We're not talking about pricing in a way that reflects poorly on Bob or his product and technically any pricing discussed here other than msrp is pure speculation.

Maybe it's just me, but after Bob started posting here, it didn't seem to be very polite to discuss/speculate street pricing in this particular thread. Somehow it just struck me as wrong even though I know Infocus will make their money on the PJ's anyway, regardless of what we pay for them.

If the street price for the IN76 is $3000 Infocus will have a warehouse full of them. No way the unit is worth $1000-$1300 more than say a HD72 Z4 or AE900.

Here are the IN76 Main selling points as I see them.

-1280-720 So are many great units at $2000.00 HD72 1280-768

-3000:1 Calibrated contrast Many units will get close to that for $2000.00
And the HD72 is rated at 5000:1 Time will tell here.

-1000 video-optimized lumens, sure like the 7000:1 contrast on the Z4

-six-segment color wheel, nice but no 7-segment Texas Instruments BrilliantColor technology. the six segment color wheel is the MINIMUM spec now for a DLP HT unit.

- quiet operation Well its about time infocus makes a cheap quiet projector

- New case design I really don't care just produce a great image.

- is their a Zero dead pixel policy from infocus? I don't know but the HD72 does wouldn't the IN76. Same DLP chip!


Sure it sounds like I like the HD72 but I will wait a few months for the reviews to come in before I upgrade my 4805. But it looks like the IN76 may be a little late to the party. And at $3000.00 they may miss the party all together.

And why would Bob Williams be offended that we want good prices on the IN76, that makes no sense.

I do not know what the street pricing for this projector will be... and when we do we will not be allowed to discuss it here anyway.. :-)

However, IF has never shrunk from charging a bit more than their direct competition because they believe they can and do bring extra value to the party. It is up to each person to decide if the extra value IF provides will make a valuable difference in their situation.

But I certainly hope that Bob will continue to answer questions and that we can get some production units into the hands of folks like Gregg at WSR, Art (presenter), and any other respected independent reviewers like CKL. I think the next few months will be very interesting and I am thrilled that we have such great competitors to do battle for our dollars!!

Damn, they did raise the price. I had gone through the entire list of online InFocus dealers and found a good price for the IN76, and now the price has been bumped up $1K. I should have ordered it then. As is I don't think the IN76 is worth $3K. My X1 was only $1000, and so far I'm not seeing much of an improvement except noise decrease, and the small resolution bump to 720p.

No...I am a giddy Steelers fan...who is having an Optoma HD72 delivered to me the first week of Feb.
And I'm a giddy SEAHAWKS fan...who is having an Optoma HD72 delivered to me to the first week of Feb! I hope we both get our new projectors in time, but I'm hoping my first major viewing experience (watching the Seahawks win the Super Bowl) will be a bit more enjoyable than yours. Make sure to cool off a few days before posting your initial review!! :D

I am wondering about the lumens spec's in the brochure I picked up at CES. Are the lumens reported (900 if I remember correctly) the "calibrated" D65 lumens that we can normally count on from InFocus?
The lumens are measured at the projector's native color point. However, the D65 lumens are 98% of the native lumens since the native color point is right between D65 and D75 on the color chart and the color correction to D65 involves subtracting blue which has almost no impact to lumens. If you're happier with the additional 2% brightness you can certainly run it at the native color point.

Most projectors lose much more brightness to get to D65, but we design the optics so that we start out very close before calibrating, to preserve brightness and contrast.

Bob Williams: "Most projectors lose much more brightness to get to D65, but we design the optics so that we start out very close before calibrating, to preserve brightness and contrast."

It may sound a little self serving, but it isn't, it's just the truth. There are thousands of stories regarding the lumens post ISF calibration being WAY lower than promised. InFocus is much closer to the truth with their specs. After enjoying my 4805 immensely and having followed the original "There can be only one" thread from the start, Bob has earned my trust and respect. Thanks for keeping up with us Bob.

Now.. when and if that pj hits the under 2k price point I'm going to be really tempted.

Here's a snippet from an email I just received from InFocus:

We are nearing the end of the life of the SP5000. It’s replacement product, the IN76 should be shipping in about 6 weeks.

There was an identical one about the 5700 as well. Interesting that there wasn't one for the 4805... Anyway, thought some of you would like to see it.

Pricing edited out*

I wonder if the IN76 is considered a Entertainment projector or a Theater project?

rmtoberman, welcome to the forum! Forgot to mention I met Bob at the Stereophile Home Entertainment show long before I bought the 4805 and he inspired my confidence in their products. Give that man a raise, he's workin' overtime!

Me too!! :(

I've always used industrial strength BNC and UHF connectors but have never before had to fall to the level of using RCA connectors! Yech. I hate terminating coax cable at the best of times but when the connector isn't designed for the cable it's awful!

What is the recognized, quality A/V RCA connector used by the AVS pros? Does it require a special tool?

I've considered having some local AV specialist company come out just to terminate those stupid lines but I've been procrastinating ;)

cavu:

I'm sure billymac's compression tool is great, but I found this guide to work very well (I didn't solder center pins, just crimped with lockjaw pliers):

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/etmcable.htm

Got cable and canare connectors from markertek. From what I understand, canare is a very good quality connector (as far as RCA's go)

Good luck!

[/off topic]

I agree, having used Canare gold connectors and Liberty cable when I made my component run.

Damn, they did raise the price. I had gone through the entire list of online InFocus dealers and found a good price for the IN76, and now the price has been bumped up $1K. I should have ordered it then. As is I don't think the IN76 is worth $3K. My X1 was only $1000, and so far I'm not seeing much of an improvement except noise decrease, and the small resolution bump to 720p.

Backlash,

Don't worry about the pricing until the IN76 is actually available. We may even see a nice deal here at AVS.

Opinions vary on worth, but I can say that you'll see a large difference between the IN76 and the X1. (Unless IF somehow really messed up, which is highly unlikely.) I upgraded my X1 to a 4805 and the difference between the two units was night and day. The blacks are much better, the colors are much better, the contrast is much better, and you have a brighter picture. Any doubt that I had in whether or not I should have upgraded was gone the minute I fired up the 4805 the first time. I even had both projectors firing at the same time and covered each lens halfway to see the difference. As I said, it was night and day.

Since the IN76 is using Darkchip 2, the blacks won't be much different than the 4805, but I can safely say they'll be much better than the X1's. Also, the better color wheel and it having a higher contrast than even the 4805 should blow the X1 away. And like you said, the resolution is better and it'll be much quieter.

All I'm trying to say is that if you're able to see one of these in action, you'll see a HUGE improvement over the X1. Whether or not it's worth the difference in price is up to you.

We may even see a nice deal here at AVS.I emailed Jason Turk of AVS back in December and inquired about the IN76 but he said that "unfortunately" they didn't handle it.

Meaning that it's not his department, or that it won't happen?

Meaning that it's not his department, or that it won't happen?He said they handle some InFocus but not the IN76.

I emailed Jason Turk of AVS back in December and inquired about the IN76 but he said that "unfortunately" they didn't handle it.

I was looking at upgrading my screen as well, and Jason informed me that they will have the IN76. Maybe he couldn't say anything until after CES? I haven't talked about price though.

The lumens are measured at the projector's native color point. However, the D65 lumens are 98% of the native lumens since the native color point is right between D65 and D75 on the color chart and the color correction to D65 involves subtracting blue which has almost no impact to lumens. If you're happier with the additional 2% brightness you can certainly run it at the native color point.

Most projectors lose much more brightness to get to D65, but we design the optics so that we start out very close before calibrating, to preserve brightness and contrast.

Thank you Bob for your response...

With the above information then it seems that the IN76 should be pretty darn bright projector (98% of 900 lumens is still quite bright for a Home Theater unit). That being the case, how big of a screen do you feel the IN76 could comfortably handle if the screen gain was in the neighbor hood of 1.0... what about 1.3?

I need to go back to some of Kevin's old posts to come up with the FTL calculation again based on lumens and screen square feet.... I think it is square feet divided by lumens = ftl... which means a 107" x 60" screen (I think this is about 122" diag) should have almost 20ftl when the bulb was new and around 10 to 12 at mid life on a 1.0 gain screen if I am cyphering this correctly!

Thanks for the dedication that Kevin (KRAS) refers to and the time you spend educating us here!

Don't forget the usual 80% for the low lamp mode which I presume this still has - though it sounds like the high power vacuum cleaner emulator of the SP4805 is history.....

lumens required is 12ftLxsqft/gain but that is with a new lamp. Up that to 16ftL if you want to average 12, or up to 24ftL if you want at worse 12ftL (use a ND2 filter initially). 36ftL goal if you want a big screen TV for the living room rather than a dedicated theater screen.

I will let you do the math - but Bob has been putting this info in his install calculators lately - which I always try to link to the current version on my site.

Thanks Kevin.........

Okay so we have 900 lumens minus 2% for calibration = 883 x 80% for low lamp mode = ~700 lumens.

So a 122" diag screen (60x107) is 44.6 square feet.... therefore 700/44.6 = 15.7ftl on a 1.0 gain screen, 20ftl on a studiotek 130, 22ftl on a Carada BW, or ~47ftl on a SilverStar (maybe an ND3 at least don't you think)!

Whoopee....... :cool:

122'' silver star! wouldnt it cost more than IN76
it is better to use a grey screen with a bright unit
to get the boost on the contrast. Just my 2c's

Thanks Kevin.........

Okay so we have 900 lumens minus 2% for calibration = 883 x 80% for low lamp mode = ~700 lumens.

So a 122" diag screen (60x107) is 44.6 square feet.... therefore 700/44.6 = 15.7ftl on a 1.0 gain screen, 20ftl on a studiotek 130, 22ftl on a Carada BW, or ~47ftl on a SilverStar (maybe an ND3 at least don't you think)!

Whoopee....... :cool:

Stevo,

I believe the IN76 is stated as having 1000 lumens in the high power mode and 800 in the low power mode. If you allow for a 10% lamp deviation, actual lumens could be as high as 1100 or as low as 900.

Does anybody even make an ND3 filter? I have only seen ND filters come in 2, 4, or 8. The ND2 reduces light output by 50%. The ND4 further reduces that by another 50% which equates to 25% of the lumens output of an unfiltered lamp. And an ND8 would only give you 12.5% of the lumens of an unfiltered lamp.

I have a SilverStar and when I get the IN76, I also plan on getting the Hoya HMC ND4 and maybe use it for the first 250 hours or so, then switch over to the ND2 that I currently use with my 4805.

The lumens are measured at the projector's native color point. However, the D65 lumens are 98% of the native lumens since the native color point is right between D65 and D75 on the color chart and the color correction to D65 involves subtracting blue which has almost no impact to lumens. If you're happier with the additional 2% brightness you can certainly run it at the native color point.

Most projectors lose much more brightness to get to D65, but we design the optics so that we start out very close before calibrating, to preserve brightness and contrast.

Bob,

This months issue (Feb) of HT Magazine has an article on the info contained in their video measurement boxes that they use in their reviews and among other things, they talk about color points on the CIE chart. They state that having an accurate green point generally means a dimmer lumens output for DLP technology and that one manufacturer that experimented with an accurate green saw their total light output decrease 20%. So manufacturers choose to use a green point that isn't accurate in order to maintain a higher overall light output.

Is this the same reason the 4805's green point was off and will the IN76's green be any more accurate than the 4805's ?

FWIW, I have the ~1000 lumen SP5000 playing on a 16'x9' professional screen in a little movie theater. It is *amazing* how bright it is. It's even a perforated screen. That's easily 4-6 times the size of a typical screen. I'm sure an IN76 could do the same type of thing.

Why don't you just use the InFocus INxx Screen Calculator (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=49744) which Bob already provided to us earlier in this thread instead of asking redundant questions??!! You did read this thread didn't you?

Yes, I did read the "entire" thread....

and I have downloaded the screen calculator..., but the calculator does not mention what data and numbers it is using for it's calculations.

kras,

Thanks for the clarification and putting that in perspective.

Any reviews out yet?

Thanks Kevin.........

Okay so we have 900 lumens minus 2% for calibration = 883 x 80% for low lamp mode = ~700 lumens.



Let's see if I can ask this clearly:

The IN76 is 1280x768, meaning 48 pixels will be masked off, which also means that light will still be shown through those masked off pixels.

My question is: will this lower the actual lumen output of the image even more? Say from an estimated 700 to 650? Although this would make it slightly brighter than the 4805, I assume we still get an actual calibrated CR of 3000:1.

I really wish this thing would get at least 800 lumens so I could get a larger screen.

Hi Geno - don't forget the IN76 high lamp lumen spec is 1000, not 900 as stated in the quote you referenced. Assuming the 4805 and IN76 are measured by identical methods and that their specs can be directly compared, I would expect the IN76 to be on average 33% brighter than the 4805.

Any reviews out yet?

Not that I've seen. But, we should start to see them very soon.

Jeff KB " I would expect the IN76 to be on average 33% brighter than the 4805."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That not too shabby at all!

Hi Geno - don't forget the IN76 high lamp lumen spec is 1000, not 900 as stated in the quote you referenced. Assuming the 4805 and IN76 are measured by identical methods and that their specs can be directly compared, I would expect the IN76 to be on average 33% brighter than the 4805.

Jeff,

The 4805 specs show 750 lumens on high power and 600 on low power. This means that the IN76 would be 25% brighter in each mode when compared to the 4805.



Geno,

I would think you should have no problem going to a screen that is 25% larger than your 92" which would be 115" diagonal. How is your 4805 doing with the 700 or so hours you have on it now ? Are you still using the ND2 filter ? I'd say take your 4805 and throw a 120" image on a white wall somewhere else in your house and see if it's bright enough for you and if it is that should answer your question. :)

According to the PDF on the IN76, it will do SMPTE brightness on a 12' wide screen. Those numbers sound a bit inflated, but even if it does that on a 10' wide screen, I don't think you will have any problems going to a bigger screen.

Jeff,

The 4805 specs show 750 lumens on high power and 600 on low power. This means that the IN76 would be 25% brighter in each mode when compared to the 4805.


750 * 1.333 = 999.75
600 * 1.333 = 799.8

or

1000/750 = 800/600 = 1.33
:)

750 * 1.333 = 999.75
600 * 1.333 = 799.8

or

1000/750 = 800/600 = 1.33
:)

Is this one of those trick math problems ? ;)

I see how the math works but I remain :confused:

If the IN76 throws 1000 lumens in high power and the 4805 throws 750 lumens in high power, does it not mean that the 4805 only has 75% of the lumens of the IN76 ?

I've been out of school for a long time now and math was never my strong point :o

What Jeff is showing is that the IN76 is 33% brighter then the 4805, not 25% brighter. And Jeff is a bright fella, because he is correct!!!!

If the IN76 throws 1000 lumens in high power and the 4805 throws 750 lumens in high power, does it not mean that the 4805 only has 75% of the lumens of the IN76 ?



That is true. The 4805 does have 75% of the lumens of the IN76.
It is also true that the IN76 has 133% of the lumens of the 4805.

:)

That is true. The 4805 does have 75% of the lumens of the IN76.
It is also true that the IN76 has 133% of the lumens of the 4805.

:)

Anybody else want to jump on the bandwagon ? :D

I understand that Jeff is correct. I just never looked at it in that way.

I don't really live on a farm, I just naturally assumed that if I have $1.00 and you have $.75 that I have 25% more than you, when in actuality I have $.25 more than you, but 33% greater wealth :p

Do I get an "A" for today's lesson ? :)

I don't know whether you learned the "new math" or the old math but whatever math you learned is flawed.

1000
------ = 1.3333
750

800
----- = 1.3333
600


The IN76 is 33% brighter than the SP4805.

(You obviously are not in sales or marketing (or accounting!) as you never learned the difference between "discount" and "markup"!!)

Nice to see you jump on the band wagon but you're a little late to the party.

Originally Posted by smithfarmer
I just naturally assumed that if I have $1.00 and you have $.75 that I have 25% more than you,

WRONG! You have $0.25 more.

0.75
----- = 75% (or a 25% discount) $0.75 is 25% less than $1.00
1.00


1.00
------ = 133% (or a 33% markup) $1.00 is 33% more than $0.75
0.75


0.25
------ = 33%
0.75


Bottom line:

33% markup = 25% discount
100% markup = 50% discount
... etc.

If you would have read and then quoted my whole post, you might have had a second chance to see that I already stated that.

And Jeff is a bright fella, because he is correct!!!!
Thanks Richard, although when it comes to math, I think my college math professors would disagree with your assessment of my lumen output! :D :D

Hi Smithfarmer - if it's any consolation, it IS a little confusing that depending on what you use as the base (the 4805 or IN76), you can make a point for 33% brighter or 25% dimmer! Maybe when it comes time for my next raise at the office I can convince the powers-that-be that I've been short changed based on your math. :D

Ahhh... this thread is starting to remind me of the old days and the original 4805 thread (long before the 1st "official" one). Just a bunch of guys talking about anything and everything, biding their time and waiting for the actual release of the projector and some real world reviews!

Geno,

I would think you should have no problem going to a screen that is 25% larger than your 92" which would be 115" diagonal. How is your 4805 doing with the 700 or so hours you have on it now ? Are you still using the ND2 filter ? I'd say take your 4805 and throw a 120" image on a white wall somewhere else in your house and see if it's bright enough for you and if it is that should answer your question. :)

According to the PDF on the IN76, it will do SMPTE brightness on a 12' wide screen. Those numbers sound a bit inflated, but even if it does that on a 10' wide screen, I don't think you will have any problems going to a bigger screen.

Hey Smithfarmer!

Actually, I just want to go up to 106". That's about the biggest my room can handle, and is plenty big for me. At 770 hrs, the 4805 is plenty bright, although I removed the ND2 a couple of weeks ago. I still pop it on for certain movies and sports in HD.

I suppose I was wondering whether the 48 masked pixels would reduce the lumen output even more. But it sounds like 33% brighter (thanks Jeff, btw) will be more than enough to bump my screen up 14" diag. Now just to get WAF on board again. ;)

I really want 24 ft/L initially, because it was very nice simply removing the ND2 and getting that jolt in extra brightness. 800 hrs in a year and 7 months with ND2, and hopefull another year and a half without ND2, and I would be a very happy camper. My plans are to move this to the Living Room (basically our TV room) and set up a plasma simulator on a Vutec, and swap in a IN76 in the HT room. I am curious if guys like Jeff and the other original 4805 owners will be changing screen material. I assume you are sticking with your retina scorcher!

FYI, Infocus has added these new PJs to their newly designed website, and they have included them in the projection distance calculators.

Hey Smithfarmer!

Actually, I just want to go up to 106". That's about the biggest my room can handle, and is plenty big for me. At 770 hrs, the 4805 is plenty bright, although I removed the ND2 a couple of weeks ago. I still pop it on for certain movies and sports in HD.

I suppose I was wondering whether the 48 masked pixels would reduce the lumen output even more. But it sounds like 33% brighter (thanks Jeff, btw) will be more than enough to bump my screen up 14" diag. Now just to get WAF on board again. ;)

I really want 24 ft/L initially, because it was very nice simply removing the ND2 and getting that jolt in extra brightness. 800 hrs in a year and 7 months with ND2, and hopefull another year and a half without ND2, and I would be a very happy camper. My plans are to move this to the Living Room (basically our TV room) and set up a plasma simulator on a Vutec, and swap in a IN76 in the HT room. I am curious if guys like Jeff and the other original 4805 owners will be changing screen material. I assume you are sticking with your retina scorcher!

FYI, Infocus has added these new PJs to their newly designed website, and they have included them in the projection distance calculators.

Geno,

As you can see from my recent math lessons ;), you won't have a problem upgrading to a larger screen.

Your plan sounds great concerning the 4805. The wife can watch "American Idol" and other such fare while you spend time tweaking the IN76 and your HTPC. :D

Thanks for the heads up on the projection calculator. When I visited the IN76 page of the newly redesigned Infocus website a few days ago and clicked the link for the projection calculator, it still didn't have the new Play Big series PJ's included. Nice to see it's now there. I only wish I didn't have to move my mount 1.5' closer to the screen.

Your instincts are correct about my screen. I've got about a hundred less hours than you on my 4805 and removed the ND2 filter a couple of weeks ago for a few hours and the image was still too bright, so I put the filter back on and it will most likely stay there until I move the 4805 to the family room and have my own plasma simulator using a 60" SilverStar. I really like using the filter. The image still has plenty of pop and a smoother look to it.

FYI, Bob Williams posted the INxx calculator on this very thread seventeen days ago (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6901323&&#post6901323).
I'm well aware of that. In case you have forgotten, I don't have Excel and you posted what my mounting distance would be, which I appreciated and thanked you for.

What I do not appreciate is this continual condescending attitude of yours towards many of the people who are simply trying to help or ask questions. This bitterness/anger/arrogance or whatever it is, seems to be a common theme in many of your posts and I for one would like to see you stop it. It doesn't at all help in furthering the goal of making this a nice place to come to in our quest for knowledge of pj's or any other HT related points of interest.

You have been very helpful to many people here and I'm sure they are grateful to you for that, as I have been. Please keep posting, I'm not asking you to stop, just to use a little discretion and think of how your posts are viewed by others. In the same way that you chided me for posting too many screen shots a month ago, I'm asking you to practice what you preach and use some "netiquette".

Thank you sir and have a good day.

In case you have forgotten, I don't have Excel and you posted what my mounting distance would beI had forgotten that.What I do not appreciate is this continual condescending attitude of yoursI was not aware that my comments were viewed as condescending and for that I apologize.

I do admit to getting frustrated with what I perceive as extreme laziness on the part of some posters who appear to never do any research, or even simple reading, of their own. When investigating my first PJ purchase, I read all of the original 4805 thread over a six month period and have read every message posted since.

I have tried to follow the example of people like Kras (who were instrumental in my education but who have clearly burned out on beating the same dead horses) and contribute where I can. Perhaps it's time for me, too, to back off.

Bob
All the goodies you had mentioned like low noise, better air path, less light spill from front etc etc. apply only to IN74 and 76 or to all the 3 models?.

My main complaint about 4805(sorry if I had been over critical) was the fan noise and if I am not mistaken people also had color wheel noise after using the unit for an year or so, especially X1.
As long as the focus on IN72 isnt worse than 4805 no problem.


One more thing that bothered me about X1 was its brightness non-uniformity.
I am sure you might have read about complaints from people that the lower left corner of the image (especially in blank black image) was significantly brighter than the rest (table mounted). This was more noticeable for smaller images
like I had (some 65+ diagonal) and dark scenes. People who had larger images didnt see this nonuniformity.

compared to X1, 4805 had much better uniformity. Almost unnoticeable.

How would you compare the brightness uniformity of 72 and 76 to x1 and 4805.
As long as it is better than 4805 no problem.

Another question regarding zoom modes. 4805 had a mode using which I could zoom 4:3 and fit it in 16:9 screen. Ofcourse I lose some 1/4th the image on top and bottom but it was fine for me. Do 72 and 76 also have those modes?


Thanks

bump

Bob
Very pleased to hear that but since my budjet is more towards
IN72 let me ask you this.

How would you compare the fan noise of IN72 with 4805.
If you tell me that IN72 at its high power mode is quieter than
4805 at its low power mode, I will be the first one to review
IN72 at AVS :-)

Thanks

bump

I do admit to getting frustrated with what I perceive as extreme laziness on the part of some posters who appear to never do any research, or even simple reading, of their own. When investigating my first PJ purchase, I read all of the original 4805 thread over a six month period and have read every message posted since.

I have tried to follow the example of people like Kras (who were instrumental in my education but who have clearly burned out on beating the same dead horses) and contribute where I can. Perhaps it's time for me, too, to back off.

I understand your frustration of repeating the same info over and over and I guess you could say it goes with the territory of one who takes up the challenge of trying to educate the new folks, many of whom don't realize that with a simple search they could easily find the info they're looking for.

Please don't stop posting. There are many dead horses that need beating and somebody has to do it. :)

I wish you no ill will and harbor no hard feelings.

How would you compare the brightness uniformity of 72 and 76 to x1 and 4805. As long as it is better than 4805 no problem.

The brightness uniformity of a white image has the same specification as the SP4805. However, we redesigned the optics a bit to improve the brightness uniformity of a black image compared to the SP4805. Black and white are two different optical states in a DLP projector and must be treated separately from a design standpoint.

4805 had a mode using which I could zoom 4:3 and fit it in 16:9 screen. Ofcourse I lose some 1/4th the image on top and bottom but it was fine for me. Do 72 and 76 also have those modes?
Yes. The IN72, IN74, and IN76 have all of the resizing modes of the SP4805, and have an additional mode called "Natural Wide" that stretches only the edges of a 4:3 image to fit it into the 16:9 native display rectangle, similar to the mode commonly found in plasma screens and 16:9 televisions.

How would you compare the fan noise of IN72 with 4805.
If you tell me that IN72 at its high power mode is quieter than
4805 at its low power mode, I will be the first one to review
IN72 at AVS :-)
Then good luck reviewing. The IN72 is quieter in its high power mode than the 4805 is in its low power mode.

Is this the same reason the 4805's green point was off and will the IN76's green be any more accurate than the 4805's?
The green color point chosen for the IN76 is very close to that of the SP4805. If you would like a product with a green point closer to the REC709 standard for green, you could choose the SP7205 or SP7210, or the SP777 if you want it dead on.

There are numerous practical reasons to choose the color point that we did. It allows for a brighter, higher contrast image without changing the perceived colors dramatically. Green is the least objectionable color point to shift in this way. Both blue and red (as well as the 3 secondary colors) are pretty much right on the REC709 color points.

With the above information then it seems that the IN76 should be pretty darn bright projector (98% of 900 lumens is still quite bright for a Home Theater unit). That being the case, how big of a screen do you feel the IN76 could comfortably handle if the screen gain was in the neighbor hood of 1.0... what about 1.3?

I need to go back to some of Kevin's old posts to come up with the FTL calculation again based on lumens and screen square feet.... I think it is square feet divided by lumens = ftl... which means a 107" x 60" screen (I think this is about 122" diag) should have almost 20ftl when the bulb was new and around 10 to 12 at mid life on a 1.0 gain screen if I am cyphering this correctly!

The foot lamberts you will get are part of the Excel projection calculator I posted earlier. I purposely left the screen gain and projector lumens inputs editable so that you can fill in whatever values you like.

Then good luck reviewing. The IN72 is quieter in its high power mode than the 4805 is in its low power mode.

Hell yes! Thank you, Bob! Now only if I could figure out how to convince the WAF we NEED a new PJ...................................

Thanks Bob....... I have never used Excel before... spend too much time fixing people computers to figure out how to do something useful with them!!

I thought only the two yellow squares could be adjusted......

Thanks again

JeffKB

Now that math lesson's over, the real question is how the IN76 is going to look on a purple wall. And how does it compare to one of these when picking screen materials:

http://www.3dstereo.com/viewmaster/vp-3001.html

I think IF's got another few winners coming, lets hope the market agrees and their stock price affords Bob Williams some well deserved options cash.

Bob, could you give us some more information about the new color wheel? You alluded to some significant changes. Given the new non-filtered air path, is the color wheel out of the air stream completely? You also mentioned that outgassing from the lamp housing has been eliminated by switching to aluminum...was that the only source of outgassing? What about all the other plastics? Or is the lamp housing the only thing that gets hot enough?

Care to quote any MTBF estimtates for the new color wheel, fans etc?

After all this lumen math, what would the brightness of the IN76 be compared to the X1? I currently have my X1 in low power(non presentation) mode. If anyone could help thatd be great.

Then good luck reviewing. The IN72 is quieter in its high power mode than the 4805 is in its low power mode.

Thanks a lot Bob. Fan noise was my only complaint about 4805.
if it is going to be that quiet and also if the color wheel has
improved then I should be very happy with IN72.

Just one last question. You had mentioned that the color wheel
has been greatly improved in IN76. Has the same type of color
wheel also being used in IN72.

Bob:

Is the IN72 firmware (with its new aspect ratio options, etc.) backwards compatible with the SP4805?

For those of you WITH excel (sorry smithfarmer), and at the risk of incurring the wrath of cavu ;) as I may have posted this before, HERE (http://www.carltonbale.com/ht/calculator/) is a really good screen calculator you can download and save on your 'puter.

HiHoStevo, it would appear that even with a 1.0 gain screen and low power (800 lumens) you'd have 24 ftL off a 106 diagonal screen.

Quote:
4805 had a mode using which I could zoom 4:3 and fit it in 16:9 screen. Ofcourse I lose some 1/4th the image on top and bottom but it was fine for me. Do 72 and 76 also have those modes?
Yes. The IN72, IN74, and IN76 have all of the resizing modes of the SP4805,Can anyone say if it will similarly vertically stretch a 2.35 image to fill the panel?

Hi Bob,

The text in the color brochure for the IN72 claims the projector will have a DVI input, and the DVI logo is prominently featured. However, the close-up of the back panel connector is marked M1-DA/DVI. Is the connector a standard DVI connector, or an M1-DA connector (and if you have the time and want to go into it, how do the two connectors differ and what's the advantage of using an M1-DA on a projector?)

Thanks. The IN72 is looking like a sweet little box and I've gotten the upgrade bug. :-/ I only wish it had a shorter throw--people like me who can only afford cheap projectors can also only afford to live in apartments like shoeboxes.

(Seriously, it does seem to me that the people buying the higher-end projectors are more likely to have large rooms to devote to theaters, so I don't understand why cheaper projectors seem to have longer throws.)

~ Kiran <entropy@io.com>

Bob,

-Will IN series be HDCP enabled only over HDMI or will M1DA port handle HDCP as well?
-Would you care to quote what color wheel mfg/model is getting used in these new units? Someone's asked previously if all 3 PJ models will have same color wheel (i.e. are they all considered same platform?).

-Can you share any specifics about these new components?

For example, if the new platform has some new cool feature in the ColorWheel or fans like fluid dynamic bearings (speculation on my part) that would be great information to share. I look for FDBs when buying hard drives.

Thanks

Bob,

-Will IN series be HDCP enabled only over HDMI or will M1DA port handle HDCP as well?
-Would you care to quote what color wheel mfg/model is getting used in these new units? Someone's asked previously if all 3 PJ models will have same color wheel (i.e. are they all considered same platform?).

-Can you share any specifics about these new components?

For example, if the new platform has some new cool feature in the ColorWheel or fans like fluid dynamic bearings (speculation on my part) that would be great information to share. I look for FDBs when buying hard drives.

Thanks

I guess I had asked if all the goodies that he mentioned for IN76
also applies to IN72 in #359.
I guess Bob had also mentioned that IN72 has the same optics
as 4805, correct me if I am wrong.
So if the color wheel buzz is still going to be there in IN72 then
it may be worth investing on IN76 or wait till the street price
on IN76 drops to a more attractive level.

BTW any news about the warranty i.e is it going to be just 1 year or
more and what is the price of the extended warranty. Also is the extended
warranty only for labor

Bob,

I must have missed something, you referred to the three other colors (other than RGB). I thought I read that the IN76 will be RGBRGB, not RGBCMY (I may have those last three colors wrong) and not use Brilliant color.

Can you explain this further.

Thanks

Tnedator

R+G = Y
R+B = M
B+G = C

What Brilliant Color does is support RGBCMY color wheels - but if you can create CMY from RGBRGB - why would you want BrilliantColor? In video standards Yellow is Defined as White-Blue while White is a specific Mixture of RGB. Infocus gets this video decoding for the white point done perfectly - and thus the secondary colors are perfect (even if the RGB is a bit off - they still get the CMY perfect)

See the real purpose for a CMY color wheel is to add CMY colors that cannot be created from RGB - a really nice idea for print graphics professionals - but until we get a video media standard that supports it - rather useless for video for purposes other than colorizing the video. Another purpose is to make brighter whites by using the brighter CMY to mix white - rather than RGB - again brighter is better!? The problem is the design needs to switch over to using RGB when mixing near black - and that process will destroy your gamma curve - making for unnatural looking contrast. So really it is not better color and contrast - but unnatural colors and contrast. Sometimes more is not better!

The irony is without BrilliantColor - Infocus will probably still be more accurate than those projectors with BrilliantColor. So lets not call it BrilliantColor - but WrongColor!

Ok, I was trying to reconcile this quote from Bob: "There are numerous practical reasons to choose the color point that we did. It allows for a brighter, higher contrast image without changing the perceived colors dramatically. Green is the least objectionable color point to shift in this way. Both blue and red (as well as the 3 secondary colors) are pretty much right on the REC709 color points. "

Based on your post, the 'secondary colors' he is referring to would likely not be CMY on the color wheel, but instead CMY being created from the RGBRGB wheel. Correct?

Cavu, I have sent you a PM.

Please respond.

I've deleted the last post as it should have been a response to my PM THROUGH PM.
Not aired for publicity.

Another reason why a ban will be forthcoming.

Everyone else, carry on.

Bob, could you give us some more information about the new color wheel? You alluded to some significant changes. Given the new non-filtered air path, is the color wheel out of the air stream completely? You also mentioned that outgassing from the lamp housing has been eliminated by switching to aluminum...was that the only source of outgassing? What about all the other plastics? Or is the lamp housing the only thing that gets hot enough?

The screens in the SP4805 only affect the lamp housing, and were there to contain glass particles in the event of a lamp rupture. The color wheel is designed in both projectors to be able to withstand the normal dust in people's homes. The outgassing is another issue. Plastics will generally produce volatile organic compounds when heated to high temperatures and these can condense on any relatively cool surface like the color wheel. Therefore we removed the plastic parts that get to high temperatures in the new line. These parts are close to the lamp because only the lamp gets to a temperature where this issue is a concern.

Care to quote any MTBF estimtates for the new color wheel, fans etc?

The MTBF requirement for the projector as a whole that we designed to is 10,000 hours, excluding the lamp. To meet this requirement, all components must be higher than this number.

Can anyone say if it will similarly vertically stretch a 2.35 image to fill the panel?
Yes. The letterbox mode will remove the top and bottom 1/8 of the image and stretch the rest to the 16:9 panel. This will have the effect of vertically stretching 2.35:1 content for those with lenses that can unstretch them.

TYou had mentioned that the color wheel
has been greatly improved in IN76. Has the same type of color
wheel also being used in IN72.
Yes.

Is the IN72 firmware (with its new aspect ratio options, etc.) backwards compatible with the SP4805?
No it is not. The driving ASICs are completely different so this would not be possible.

Will IN series be HDCP enabled only over HDMI or will M1DA port handle HDCP as well?

Both are HDCP enabled. We are using a dual HDMI receiver with one port connected to the HDMI connector and the other connected to the M1-DA.

Would you care to quote what color wheel mfg/model is getting used in these new units? Someone's asked previously if all 3 PJ models will have same color wheel (i.e. are they all considered same platform?).

This information would be competitively sensitive so I cannot comment. The IN72 has a smaller diameter color wheel than the IN74/IN76, but other than that they are the same design.

Can you share any specifics about these new components? For example, if the new platform has some new cool feature in the ColorWheel or fans like fluid dynamic bearings (speculation on my part) that would be great information to share. I look for FDBs when buying hard drives.

The SP4805 uses a ball bearing color wheel motor. The new line uses sleeve bearing motors which have far better acoustic noise charasteristics as well as longer life.

I must have missed something, you referred to the three other colors (other than RGB). I thought I read that the IN76 will be RGBRGB, not RGBCMY (I may have those last three colors wrong) and not use Brilliant color.
Although the color wheels in the new line are RGBRGB, we use color correction for 6 points (sometimes called 6-axis color correction) as well as white. So, while the green point does not line up with the REC709 standard, the other 5 points (RBCMY) do.

Thanks Bob!

Does this mean that Cavu is officially banned and no more trolling by him?

This means that he is temporarily banned.
He stated that he would not return... If he does return I am fine with that as long as he can control his aggression towards certain forum members.

I will not discuss this any further as it is between Cavu and AVS.

Thanks,

Kyser

Bob,

Thanks.

-Note to your marketing deptartment, the specs page made it look like HDCP is over HDMI only as it wasn't listed next to the DVI-M1DA port.

-Would have been a non-issue probably for most but I do prefer the DVI/M1-DA connection since it actually connects securely as opposed to HDMI which acts like a slamming door might disconnect it:) . Glad there's an option.

Good luck on the product launch.

I think a highly controlled shootout (with a good ISF certified tech doing the calibrations) of the IN76, Mitsubishi HC3000, and Optoma H72 models with various source material (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, and test signal generated 1080p-- the latter due to the fact who the heck knows when real Blu-Ray players will be released) with various screen materials (and screens in the 110" diagonal range since they all claim to be bright PJ's) would be most excellent!

It would cover dithering, motion panning artifacts, color decoder accuracy, gray scale tracking, image uniformity, scaler and de-interlacing quality (especially for 480i and 1080i material), the quality of 1080p source scaling down-conversion, noise, light leakage, focal quality, etc., etc. using very good test equipment (not just eye-balling the screen because that's way too subjective).

Dan

Thanks for the info Bob!!!!

Quick question, Am I correct in interpreting your statement that one could run HDMI with HDCP through an adapter into the DVI/M1-DA port? That it could be a full HDMI signal (my understanding is that HDMI can have a greater bit depth than DVI).

Thanks.

Bob,

I am still a bit confused about Brilliant Color. Is the IN76 using any Brilliant Color features. If not, why not?

Also, is there any update on when reviews will hit or when the projector will street?

Thanks

TAm I correct in interpreting your statement that one could run HDMI with HDCP through an adapter into the DVI/M1-DA port? That it could be a full HDMI signal (my understanding is that HDMI can have a greater bit depth than DVI).

Yes. From a digital signal standpoint, the M1-DA connector has the same compatibility as the HDMI connector. Our licence for the HDMI logo forbids us from stating that we have two HDMI ports because part of the requirement is having the HDMI connector at every such port. If you use the HDMI to M1-D adapter, you will have for all intents and purposes a second HDMI port on the product.

I look forward to 480i over HDMI (with the same video adjustments as analog) - is that supported Bob? And the question everyone has forgotten to ask - does PlayBig fix the autosync flashing bug of the SP4805, Bob?!
Standard definition (480i and 576i) is supported through the HDMI port.

There is no flashing bug in this product. The root cause of the bug in the SP4805 is in a chip that is not part of the new product line.

There is no flashing bug in this product. The root cause of the bug in the SP4805 is in a chip that is not part of the new product line.
It's encouraging to hear that you guys were able to root cause this issue. I'm really excited about the IN76 as a replacement for my SP4805, and I'll be happy to see that flashing problem disappear.

By the way, do you think that the firmware update for the 4805 will ever see the light of day?

Bob,

I am still a bit confused about Brilliant Color. Is the IN76 using any Brilliant Color features. If not, why not?

Also, is there any update on when reviews will hit or when the projector will street?

Thanks

I called IF today and talked with a lady from their sales and service desk and she said mid-March at the earliest and possible into April. :(

By the way, do you think that the firmware update for the 4805 will ever see the light of day?

Yes I do. It's in validation right now and I expect it to be available soon. It's frustrating for everyone but I think the end of this is near.

A good question for Bob if he chooses to comment on TI products - what does BrilliantColor have aside from RGBCMY expanded gamuts and gamma push? Is there something there for a video accurate projector that Play Big can take advantage of - even with a RGBRGB wheel?
BrilliantColor replaces the current "white peaking" control and provides a way to boost secondary colors with or without additional color segments. For videophiles who want accurate colors it provides no benefit since this function would typically be turned off. However, if someone wants to use a brightness boosting function in their projector, BrilliantColor does a substantially better job than white peaking does.

BrilliantColor and the ASIC that enables it were not ready in time for the development cycle of the IN76. That is why we have not included it. We did not feel that the benefits of BrilliantColor were worth waiting for.

I called IF today and talked with a lady from their sales and service desk and she said mid-March at the earliest and possible into April. :(


I would venture to say this is a guess, at best. If there was a concrete release date it would be well publicized. I'll stick with what Bob said earlier, it will be released when they are done with it.

htr

Yes I do. It's in validation right now and I expect it to be available soon. It's frustrating for everyone but I think the end of this is near.


Bob,

Can you list the updates in this firmware? Any chance it will accept 480I through DVI?

Thanks for all of the good informatin you have posted!

Bob,

Do you expect OOTB calibration to be spot on again? Over component? HDMI? DVI? It would be great if you had presets built in to adjust for different DVI source types...

Or is there something in HDMI that auto adjusts input signal?

The 4805 was stunning over component out of the box. I am still using the defaults and have not needed to make any adjustments. I can't say the same for DVI. Your gain/offset settings were really on target but I still found myself tweaking.


Sorry if you've answered this, don't recall reading it.

Hey Kras,

I've read many times in your posts about the effects of the white peaking feature specifically related to the 4805. I've several questions if you dont mind (let's assume white peaking at 100 for the following):

1) What happens to gamma? Is it S-shaped? Can you decribe it if it's not? Does it crush white or black?
2)Assuming the use of the 6500K preset, what happens to the white point? Does it shift blue or green or is the extended red segment enough to offset the natural blue/green lamp?
3)How much do contrast and lumens increase?
Again, if you can answer the above with the thought that white peaking would be set @ 100.

Thanks for your help

Regarding BrilliantColor - it will be very interesting to see the comparisons of the IN76 versus the H72. The H72 uses a clear segment for its BC implementation, and that may be a very important point that many are overlooking. In the past, the use of a clear segment has almost always been at the expense of color saturation, and we'll see if it's the same with the H72.

I can't help thinking of the H72 as a 720p version of the NEC 510, or the BenQ PE5120. That may not be a fair assessment, and the reviews may prove it false, but I'm looking for a 720p version of the 4805 or H31, not those other PJs.

Hi Kras - the cynic in me is saying that TI took a poll of the biggest perceived advantages of LCD vs DLP, determined it was color saturation, and then came up with the marketing driven concept of BrilliantColor. Maybe I should be grateful they didn't come out with BrilliantNoRainbows!

There is a good reason these are rarely done - they cost money to put on, and someone will always say it was wrong and biased because such and such was not done - despite best efforts to make it a fair objective comparison. You will have accusations of buyer bias, dealer bias - or if none of that familiarity exists - lack of familiarity bias. You will get slammed for using the wrong sensor and measuring the screen - and on the other side using the right sensor and measuring the projector - and on the other side for using the right sensor on the wrong screen!. You will get slammed for using a POS DVD/VCR player on one side - for not using Secrets best DVD player instead of what you think is best (or have) - and slammed for using an HTPC with the VMR9 settings your player does not support. I could go on and on!

Sorry Charlie! I will however review anything I calibrate that is new to me - but the calibration cost money....though the review is "free", See if the trolls and shills have the nerve to slam the person that paid for the "free" review....ROTFLMAO ... yes, you can see all that unfolding before your very eyes. Sad but true. Once again, the vocal minority screw it up for the silent/appreciative majority.

thanks Kras. You've always been spot on with your advice and better yet its free:)

Re this talk about color wheels and design approaches. Frankly, JeffKB hit the right note for me, a 4805 with more resolution, quieter at price that doesn't give me a nose bleed. I shopped and compared many projectors before buying the 4805, I suspect Infocus will differentiate themselves again by getting all the little things right.

From what little I've read, I can't help but think colorwheels are transitional technology to LEDs anyway. I remember reading about the breakthrough to produce a blue LED a few years back. Back then it was said that was the only thing missing from being able to produce full color images via LED.

Interesting comments about BrilliantColor. I will point out, however that anecdotal reports of the HD72 and LF AN110 from CES were generally positive (although it is probably hard to tell in such a venue). Moreover, cene4home's review of the HC3000 was quite positive.

In particular, the cene4home review makes me think it may not be all that bad of a thing.

I suspect, like most things, personal preference will rule the day. It is nice there are going to be at least 5-6 different implementations of 720p DLP projectors out there (HC3000, AN110, xv-z3000, HD72, updated 7700, and IN76).

Ahh, we're planning on finishing the basement this spring, so the timing looks perfect for me :)

BrilliantColor seems more like a personal preference. I haven't followed the HC3000 lately but I remember a lot of owners awhile back ended up turning the feature off.

He did say Video vs. PC DVI preset would have to wait for firmware update since the first release autodetects (likely screwey with the HTPC), But he also promised us the magic numbers from the lab. Hopefully at first release so I don't go around telling people use 66/39 only to find out the SP4805 was different!
I have some news related to this issue. The IN74 and IN76 will have a video DVI toggle control built in from the beginning of production. We did not quite make it with the IN72 (it will ship a little earlier than the others), so that will still require a software maintenance release.

For those wishing to blaze a trail with the IN76 and be the first on the block to own one, an authorized online dealer is showing 3/13 as the expected arrival date. FWIW.

Bob i got a simple question for ya, can i use any of these projectors upside down so as to get the projection shooting down. My screen is very low so this is important. Thanks.

FlyinngBig........

When a projector is ceiling mounted it is in the "inverted" position. This allows the offset to move the image down from the top of the ceiling or part ceiling part wall where it would probably wind up if you had this type of projector mounted let's say high on a shelf, but right-side-up.

There are some projectors with what is called a "zero-offset" which when mounted high are still right-side-up (or higher priced DLP projectors with "lens-shift"), but this projector has a fixed-offset to allow it to be table mounted (low) when right-side-up and inverted when ceiling mounted.

Well, looks like the first HD72s are here and the users have confirmed a 37% offset... given my shelf mount, it looks like Bob and the IN76 get my vote even before the comparison reviews are in. :)

The "Letterbox" resizing mode can be used for anamorphic lenses. This mode chops the top and bottom 1/8 of the image off and stretches the remaining image to fit the 16:9 display. Typically it would be used for non-anamorphic DVDs but it stretches anamorphic content the same amount that an anamorphic lens should unstretch it. It works the same way for all input types.
Bob - just to clarify that bolded statement, are you saying that it works for all types of input AND all resolutions. I'm planning on running 720p via HDMI and I just want to confirm the letterbox mode will do the 33% vertical stretch for anamorphic content with that setup. Thanks.

Bob - just to clarify that bolded statement, are you saying that it works for all types of input AND all resolutions. I'm planning on running 720p via HDMI and I just want to confirm the letterbox mode will do the 33% vertical stretch for anamorphic content with that setup. Thanks.
Letterbox resize works for all inputs and all resolutions that the product supports. There were some resolutions where it did not work in the SP4805, but these have been corrected in the new product line.

Do you expect OOTB calibration to be spot on again? Over component? HDMI? DVI? It would be great if you had presets built in to adjust for different DVI source types...

Or is there something in HDMI that auto adjusts input signal?

The 4805 was stunning over component out of the box. I am still using the defaults and have not needed to make any adjustments. I can't say the same for DVI. Your gain/offset settings were really on target but I still found myself tweaking.

The out-of-box calibration is better than that of the SP4805. Since we are using new ASICs for the AD converter, video decoder, and HDMI receiver, we spent a huge amount of time making sure that the blacks were black, the whites were white, and the colors were correct for every single source. We also purchased more test equipment for validating that everything is right.

Bob, if you keep this up, the IN76 is going to take a big bite out of the sales of the SP7210. I can only imagine what it's replacement will be able to do.

I have a question on the use of the zoom function of the lens. I have no doubt that the IN76 will provide a quality picture no matter what amount of zoom on the lens is used, but for optimal PQ, should we strive to use the least amount of zoom possible ? This has been stated as fact by many posters and others have said it doesn't matter.


Is it really better to use the least amount of zoom for the absolute best PQ ?

Bob, if you keep this up, the IN76 is going to take a big bite out of the sales of the SP7210. I can only imagine what it's replacement will be able to do.

I have a question on the use of the zoom function of the lens. I have no doubt that the IN76 will provide a quality picture no matter what amount of zoom on the lens is used, but for optimal PQ, should we strive to use the least amount of zoom possible ? This has been stated as fact by many posters and others have said it doesn't matter.


Is it really better to use the least amount of zoom for the absolute best PQ ?

.......... and to even make it more confusing, with some new projectors you can only get the full lumen capability of the projector by having the zoom lens wide-open... so it appears that the lens is working similar to a camera "f" stop.

How does the IN76 fit into this........ do you get the best focus with the least amount of zoom, but the most light with full zoom?

How does the IN76 fit into this........ do you get the best focus with the least amount of zoom, but the most light with full zoom?
The lens has a variable f-number, as pretty much all lenses in projectors in this price class do. What this means is that, similar to camera lenses, for maximum contrast and best focus the picture should be at its smallest, but for maximum brightness the picture should be at its largest.

Bob, what are you doing working on Super Bowl Sunday??

Am I the only one that couldn't find this because it was finally stickied?? :) Anyway, thanks to the mods for doing that. Won't have to search for it from here on out.

Bob,

Since this is a new platform, have there been any major changes to the firmware and setup interface that would be of interest? Any new features or tweaking capabilities?

From the HD72 thread sounded like the HD72 did not handle mpeg compression very well at all, we need to hear more, but I can't have tons of moving little squares. I though DCDi did very well with Mpeg 2, Like I said we need to hear more than one person but if that becomes reaccuring theam, and the IN76 handles it better then I bet the IN76 sells better and the prices will drop even further. Can't wait for the first hand reviews of the IN76.

Will the three new Infocus PJ's accept a 1080p signal at 60 Hz (and other refresh rates)? Some high def. players (such as from the Blu-Ray camp) will be outputting 1080p at 60 Hz rather than just sending the original video rates right off the disc as it is decoded (I guess the chips they are using will first apply 2:3 pulldown from 24 fps encoded material, and then basically double the created video frame rate before sending it out over HDMI). I didn't see any player specs. that specified you could output native source "refresh rates" (although it's based on frame rates) as encoded on the disc over HDMI if you wanted to.

I don't count most of the HD-DVD players in my calculations because they only output 1080i.

Dan

Dan, this was posted by Bob earlier in this thread :



Quote:
Will your new projectors accept all forms of 1920x1080p signals from the new Blu-Ray and HD-DVD format players (those that properly output 1080p video, that is)?


Yes. They all accept 1080p at 60 Hz and 24 Hz.

The lens has a variable f-number, as pretty much all lenses in projectors in this price class do. What this means is that, similar to camera lenses, for maximum contrast and best focus the picture should be at its smallest, but for maximum brightness the picture should be at its largest. OK, since you bring it up ... I'm planning to use at minimum zoom with an anamorphic, so are the lumens outputs referenced previously at max zoom, and if so do you have any idea of the reduction at minimum? Since the zoom range is so limited (relative to camera glass) I had presumed it's a small fraction of an f-stop and therefore of relatively little impact.

Hi all. This IN76 projector has REALLY caught my attention. I was looking hopefully at the Optoma HD72, but the massive 37% offset puts it out of contention for me :(

First, I must say, Bob - simply amazing. The amount of information you've offered is just mind blowing...I'm so impressed that I really hope I can buy from Infocus, if only to support the company for which you work!

I'm sorry to ask you yet another question, but I still need to know something about the lens offset to determine if the IN76 will work in my room...so here it is :p

I know people figured out that the offset is 15.59% for the IN76.

First...is this accurate? Not that I doubt the people here, but I'd really like to here the official lens offset number from the horse's mouth, so to speak :rolleyes:

And second - let's say I have the IN76 ceiling mounted (inverted, of course). When I use the zoom, will the top of the image move higher and lower on the wall as the zoom changes, or will the bottom of the image move higher and lower? Or will both the top AND bottom move up and down as the center of the image remains constant?

I'm working with a low-ish ceiling and just need to know if I can make this projector work in my room :)

Thank you so very much for any reply and for all the replies you've made so far, Bob!

Jon

I have the same question as Jon.

Howard

SO,
The IN76 is 33% brighter than the 4805. It is quieter in high power than the 4805 in low power. More accurate OOTB than the 4805. A video DVI toggle switch and HDMI as well. Calibrated 3000:1 CR. An offset that allows me to have the size screen I want without the screen being too close to the floor (I MUST have my eyes 1/3 of the way up the screen - ever so slightly looking up).

And I have loved my 4805.

DAMN! The WAF has been wanting a new car. Anyone with any ideas how I can convince her we need a new PJ instead of a dependable car for her?

AND, it's $1000 more than the 4805 was when first released.

I do not believe warranty policies are ever set in stone so if there are good reasons to change them we will.

Any new news on this? We can wish can't we? :)

I'd like at least a 2 year warranty with zero-dead pixel policy like Optoma!

Dan

DAMN! The WAF has been wanting a new car. Anyone with any ideas how I can convince her we need a new PJ instead of a dependable car for her?

How about a nice combination of IN76 / PS3. I hear there some nice new car games coming:

http://www.gamespot.com/pages/image_viewer/frame.php?pid=928393&img=1&sid=undefined

Who needs a new car when you can have this in 1080p ? And you get a "free" PS3 out of the deal. :)

I know people figured out that the offset is 15.59% for the IN76. First...is this accurate? Not that I doubt the people here, but I'd really like to here the official lens offset number from the horse's mouth, so to speak :rolleyes:

Yes. The offset from the lens centerline to the top of the image (when ceiling mounted) is 15.59% of the image height.

And second - let's say I have the IN76 ceiling mounted (inverted, of course). When I use the zoom, will the top of the image move higher and lower on the wall as the zoom changes, or will the bottom of the image move higher and lower? Or will both the top AND bottom move up and down as the center of the image remains constant?

The first answer also answers the 2nd question if you think about the geometry a little bit. When you zoom, the image height changes so the offset changes by the same amount, but it is always 15.59% of the height of the image. To put it another way, if your projected image is 1 meter tall then the offset is 0.1559 meters. If your projected image is 1 foot tall then the offset is 0.1559 feet.

Any new news on this? We can wish can't we? :)
If you go to our web site we have given the option of purchasing an additional 1 year, 2 years, or 3 years of coverage. You can also purchase a 1 year lamp warranty with no limitation in number of hours used. This is currently the way we have things structured. If you do not like it please let your dealer or retailer know.

Since this is a new platform, have there been any major changes to the firmware and setup interface that would be of interest? Any new features or tweaking capabilities?
The firmware interface is pretty much identical to the one we've used before in products like the SP4805. The new application is called FlashUSB III, but it works the same as before.

Some user interface differences relative to the SP4805:
- Discrete remote codes for 10 functions including power on and off.
- Additional resizing mode called "Natural Wide".
- Auto image function is now available through the menu.
- Color space menu now includes RGB Video selection for digital RGB sources (currently IN74, IN76 only).
- Color temperature menu now includes "Native" to change to the native projector color temperature.
- A third overscan mode called "crop" has now been included, which crops the outside 3% of the image without rescaling it.
- Flesh Tone Correction toggle has been added to produce more pleasing colors for skin complexion (defaults to off).
- The preset menu now includes a default setting so that the user can change to the factory default settings without resetting the whole projector.
- The startup logo can now be captured by the user (currently IN72 only).
- A sleep timer is now included.
- A verbose "source info" function is now included for better understanding of what the projector thinks your source is.
- A "service info" function is now included that shows all of the service oriented information including the projector serial number.
- Internal test patterns are now included in the service menu.
- A "blue only" function is now included so that you do not have to use a blue filter when calibrating with Avia or Video Essentials.
- The automatic ceiling detection can be toggled on or off.
- The HDMI extended EDID can be toggled on or off to resolve problems on older graphics cards.
- The menus and splash screen now can be keystoned with the rest of the image when electronic keystone correction is used.

Let me know if you have questions about any specific function.

OK, since you bring it up ... I'm planning to use at minimum zoom with an anamorphic, so are the lumens outputs referenced previously at max zoom, and if so do you have any idea of the reduction at minimum? Since the zoom range is so limited (relative to camera glass) I had presumed it's a small fraction of an f-stop and therefore of relatively little impact.
From full wide to full zoom the IN72 changes from F/2.4 to 2.6 and the IN74/76 changes from F/2.4 to 2.8, so the brightness change will probably not be noticeable. Although I have never measured the difference, I would be surprised if it was more than 5%. We're not trying to pull a fast one here, it's just a little cheaper to design projection lenses this way.

From full wide to full zoom the IN72 changes from F/2.4 to 2.6 and the IN74/76 changes from F/2.4 to 2.8, so the brightness change will probably not be noticeable. Although I have never measured the difference, I would be surprised if it was more than 5%. We're not trying to pull a fast one here, it's just a little cheaper to design projection lenses this way.

Hi Bob...... thanks again for your time and support!

I think the reason some of us are a bit more concerned about this is that a couple of the "other" projectors out there (Sony Ruby and Panny AE900 come to mind) have been reported as changing as much as 40% in Lumen output from full zoom to smallest opening.

Next, I would love to see the user defined splash screen make it to the IN76!

Finally, is the "Natural Wide" setting... the one that takes 4x3 images and stretches them to fill the 16x9 screen..., but it does the scretch mostly on the outsides of the image and leaves the aspect ration pretty much the same in the middle portion of the image?

Having just recently purchased the 7210, I was shocked to see new models out so soon. Kinda a bummer as when I purchased my unit I called infocus asking whether I should wait or not, and was not made aware of any of the new models coming out. Anyhow......

1. Is there any reason to change to one of the newer models?
2. Are there things that they do better than the 7210?
3. Are there things that the 7210 does better?
4. Is there a single 'main' feature of the 7210 missing in the new units that would justify the 2.5x price difference?
5. my 7210 for no reason I can figure will all the sudden get really loud fan noise that comes and goes throughout using it. It's soooo annoying!!!! Have the new units solved this problem?
6. It's only happened 5x so far, but sometimes when firing up the 7210, the red color is gone, and the only way to get it back is to literally unplug the projector for a few minutes. (IT'S NOT THE WIRES OR CONNECTIONS!!!) Does this problem exist in the new unit?

I love my 7210, but after getting so used to watching hd on the new sony 60' plasma, I'm kinda wishing that I could find a way to 'blow' the colors our like the plasma. Yeah, I realise the projector is probably more accurate, it's just sometimes I really like the 'overdone' colors from the plasma. Would also be nice to have a bit more contrast as my room is in no way light controled and really can't be. I can say it was a HUGE step up from my orig projector, the 4805. Much much brigher, which allows it to be used during the afternoon vs. only evening.

and yes... the projector has been professionally installed and calibrated.

btw
thanks so much infocus for such great products, though it seems like I'm complaining, I'm not. Actually I love both that I have purchased from you guys.

The firmware interface is pretty much identical to the one we've used before in products like the SP4805. The new application is called FlashUSB III, but it works the same as before.

Some user interface differences relative to the SP4805:
- Discrete remote codes for 10 functions including power on and off.
- Additional resizing mode called "Natural Wide".
- Auto image function is now available through the menu.
- Color space menu now includes RGB Video selection for digital RGB sources (currently IN74, IN76 only).
- Color temperature menu now includes "Native" to change to the native projector color temperature.
- A third overscan mode called "crop" has now been included, which crops the outside 3% of the image without rescaling it.
- Flesh Tone Correction toggle has been added to produce more pleasing colors for skin complexion (defaults to off).
- The preset menu now includes a default setting so that the user can change to the factory default settings without resetting the whole projector.
- The startup logo can now be captured by the user (currently IN72 only).
- A sleep timer is now included.
- A verbose "source info" function is now included for better understanding of what the projector thinks your source is.
- A "service info" function is now included that shows all of the service oriented information including the projector serial number.
- Internal test patterns are now included in the service menu.
- A "blue only" function is now included so that you do not have to use a blue filter when calibrating with Avia or Video Essentials.
- The automatic ceiling detection can be toggled on or off.
- The HDMI extended EDID can be toggled on or off to resolve problems on older graphics cards.
- The menus and splash screen now can be keystoned with the rest of the image when electronic keystone correction is used.

Let me know if you have questions about any specific function.

Wow. Very, very nice options. These new options are really are useful for many of us. Infocus really does know what users want.

Bob,

Some follow up of great interest to me, a Harmony Remote fan:

The firmware interface is pretty much identical to the one we've used before in products like the SP4805. The new application is called FlashUSB III, but it works the same as before.

Some user interface differences relative to the SP4805:
- Discrete remote codes for 10 functions including power on and off.


-Aside from discrete on/off, would you mind sharing the other 8 functions now available? Or are they all related to the new functions? Or if there's a weblink...I seem to recall there was a spreadsheet somewhere of IF IR codes.

-Could you provide an example in pixels of the "3%" for the IN76? It sounded simple at first but I want to make sure I understand that impact on image. I get a lot of garbage via DVI on TWC that I'd love to get rid of...might just stage the PJ to crop full time if it does what I think.

-As you mentioned its a 768 high chip with 48 turned off, is it using same mechanism to crop this 3%? (and may have been asked earlier, any plans to allow turning those back for max 4:3 viewing?

...and you're modest on the firmware enhancements. Sounds like you kept a wish list from reading all these forums. The IR codes are really nice, I've spent a lot of time tweaking my remote, that makes it really easy. Thanks.

I love my 7210, but after getting so used to watching hd on the new sony 60' plasma, I'm kinda wishing that I could find a way to 'blow' the colors our like the plasma. Yeah, I realise the projector is probably more accurate, it's just sometimes I really like the 'overdone' colors from the plasma. Would also be nice to have a bit more contrast as my room is in no way light controled and really can't be. I can say it was a HUGE step up from my orig projector, the 4805. Much much brigher, which allows it to be used during the afternoon vs. only evening.


You might want to look at new Optoma HD72 that is using the same TI chip as IN76. HD72 has a new feature called BrilliantColor that has a setting from 1 to 10. From initial reports (it has just been released this week) it seems to do what you're looking for. Majority of users says they can only handle as high as 3, but you might like it all the way to 10, who knows.

Mits HC3000 (same chip) also has this feature, but it can only be on or off. Infocus chose not to enable this feature for their IN line -- see Bob's explanation why in the his earlier posts.

HTH, Davie.

Dreamhost, the 7210 is a great PJ and you can easily have the best of both worlds. You currently have an accurate image. If you want an image with with more color saturation, why not just increase your RGB levels until you find something that you prefer and then save these to one of the user presets. You can then toggle back and forth between the different user presets depending on whatever you feel like using at the time.

The only real difference that you would gain by getting an IN76 seems to be the new case with the quieter fan design.

[QUOTE=Bob Williams] Let me know if you have questions about any specific function.

- Auto image function is now available through the menu.
As long as we don't have any problems with the PJ's synching an image when switching between sources with different resolutions like we do with the 4805 and the original firmware I'm ok with this. Otherwise this could be a real PITA. :p


- Color temperature menu now includes "Native" to change to the native projector color temperature.
I figured that 6500K would be the default temperature like it is with the 4805. Could you elaborate on this ?


- Flesh Tone Correction toggle has been added to produce more pleasing colors for skin complexion (defaults to off).
Since this generally causes more problems with an image than it helps, I'm just curious why this was added. I'm glad to see that it is defeatable.


Any news on the release date or if any units are going to be sent out for reviews? Does Infocus even send out units for review ?

Bob, thanks again for all the info you have provided us.

Bob - thank you SO much! That 15.59% offset should be just perfect! I'm so happy about that :D Why Optoma would chose a 37% offset is just beyond me! But then again, they don't have a smart guy like Bob working for them, now do they? :p

So, MY FINAL QUESTIONS! (from me anyway :p )

1. If I have the IN76 ceiling mounted, what is the distance from the base of the projector (where the mount attaches) to the center line of the lens?

2. (How to ask this one?) perhaps - if there were a vertical line going from the top of my screen to the bottom that is right in the middle - ie. it is exactly the same distance from the left side and from the right side of the screen - would that line up with the vertical center of the lens? I guess I'm asking - is there a horizontal offset at all? Or does the middle of the lens line up with the middle of the screen horizontally?

3. Basically, I want to know - how much to the left or right of center horizontally do I need to mount the projector? Is it designed so that the center post of the mount is right in line with the lens, so I can just position the mount so that it is dead in line with the horizontal center of the screen? Or would the center post be out of line with the lens, meaning I would have to move the mount to the left or right of center a few inches to get the lens to line up dead on with the horizontal center of the screen? And if so, how much?

(Gosh...I hope that makes sense!)

According to Projector Central's numbers, the overall height of the IN76 is 4.7", but I'm not clear if this is with the swivel stand (which is not used with a ceiling mount, correct?) and I'm also not sure if the lens is exactly in the middle of the projector height wise?

Once I know the exact distance from where my mount attaches to the center line of the lens, and where I need to put the mount horizontally to get the image perfectly lined up horizontally on the screen, I can plan out the mount position to perfection :D

Thanks once again!

Jon

Bob as SmithFarmer mentioned.........

Any release date as of yet?

Somewhere a few pages back in this thread, someone stated that he was told by a dealer that it would be some time in March. I can't remember the specific date that was posted, and nobody knows if that is really the date.

3-13-06...

For overblown colors - Infocus is not what you want - they are dialed in accurate at the factory! I am sure you can find other projectors on the market that can be miscalibrated though - should not have to search very hard. I suggest instead you spend a few hundred getting your plasma ISF calibrated - watch the SP7210 enough and you will want to - otherwise you cannot watch it anymore! That or buy a projector from the same manufacturer of your plasma - it will likely have the same blown out presets....

I think Bob mentioned earlier in the thread that the SP7210 is not at all replaced by the IN76 - as it has more videophile features - look thru his posts for the feature list. You only miss out on the nifty new case which indeed is more HT friendly. To downgrade - you would give up the 7x segment wheel and DarkChip3, better optics, better warranty and 10% more brightness - just off the top of my head. I fully expect the SP7210 to be replaced with a higher end unit with the nifty new case at some point - but it remains a current model. If you were worried about paying more for top of the line features - you could have bought a SP7205 which is a year older model for $2K less - but you did not. Top of the line features price increase - value is in the eye of the beholder.

The intermittent cold startup bug (wierd posterized wrong colors) I have happen on the entire SP72xx platform - reboot and it is fine. It is rare enough that sending it back is likely not to replicate the problem. Maybe Bob knows why it happens - liikely a cold timing issue. I gave up on consumer electronics that are reboot-free - I even have to reboot my cell phone and cable box! :mad:


Thank you for the information. I was 'almost' given the impression that my 7210 was a downgrade from the new vs, and I'm happy to hear it's not yet outdated. I chose the 7210 over the 7205, 7200, preciselly because it was better, and was the upper limits of what I could afford at the time.

As to wishing I could 'blow' out the colors, I ran a few tests last night watching numerous hd sources. It may just be me, but I don't believe the networks are actually broadcasting 'true' hd for their evening shows, even though it shows as hd. The colors are nowhere near as bright and vivid as the nfl or sportscenter type of shows. Also found that hbo, showtime, hd movies and nowhere near as nice. I also ordered and tried the terminator extreme dvd last night playing it through my computer and the picture was outstanding.

For the rebooting problem it doesn't really annoy me that much as it has not happened that often and never during a 'critial' viewing time like the superbowl.

You need to feed a steady diet of

DiscoveryHD, inHD, HDNet

You learn fascinating stuff like how many rail cars fit into an ocean liner - but unbelievable colors!

Seems shot on HD video transfers colors better than shot on film. I think the local news is likely just upconversion.

yup...... This is the real deal DreamHost...

If you want to dazzle yourself and your friends watch live sports in HD or the channels Kevin listed. I don't know the technologies involved but it sure appears that most all the stuff you see on the HBO/Showtime HD channels is just upconverted... or as Kevin says it has to do with the transfers...., but trust me the rest of us are seeing the same thing you are...! Real HD (at least as real as they are currently sending us) looks absolutely stunning and you have no doubt what you are watching when you see it. Personally I find the local OTA HD broadcast of sports and PBS to be better than what I receive from DirecTV, then DiscoeryHD next after that.

[QUOTE=krasmuzik]Smithfarmer

actually increasing RGB levels does not work on Infocus - they immediately start clipping. Which is great for that cartoon look - but you cannot add "more" color.

Of course there is always the color control if you use component video.

Kras, I thought that he was trying to get that cartoon look. ;)

I am using component myself and since the colors still look so good, it's been over a year since I even thought about adjusting mine. I was thinking along the lines of the 58/28.5 gains/offsets that folks were using for DVI/HDMI through the M1 port and thought bringing both of those up would just increase his color levels. I didn't realize that it would actually cause clipping. Thanks for the clarification.



Bob mentioned earlier that native color temp was between D65 and D75 on the IN76 - native meaning the point at which brightness is maxed. Since you lose a tad blue there is not much brightness diff. On the SP72xx - native is closer to D75 even though it is spec at D65. Think of native as the color temp when you run it wide open.

I thought D65 is always our goal. What would be the purpose of running at native temp? Is there any particular reason you would want to trade accuracy for a little more brightness? Is the thinking behind this to allow for the brightest image, yet staying as close to 6500K as possible?


I have read many times that 9500K is not really a brighter image, just colder (more blue) and that people think it is brighter and this is the reason TV manufacturers send the sets from the factory on the higher temp settings because blue looks brighter.

Hello Bob,

I noticed on the Infocus website that there is now a universal ceiling mount (SP-CEIL-UNIV) for all the new Play Big projectors. It looks like this same mount also works with the 4805.


However, I have the SP-CEIL-011 with my 4805. I was just wondering if this mount will also work with the IN76 ?

Thanks

I'm wondering if my Chief ceiling mount for my 4805 can be adapted for the IN76, anybody?

With the $500 MSRP drop on the Mitsubishi HC3000U and the low prices on the Optoma HD72, I'm growing more antsy by the day waiting for a preview of the IN76.
I wish Infocus would at least let someone (like Cinehome or one of the good reviewers on this forum) take a look at the IN76, so we could at least learn if waiting for the IN76 will be worth it or not for many people looking at this class of PJs. I'm sure they are losing sales to the other two available BC projectors.

I have no clue as to the effect on eventual sales...

However, I like most here would love to see these on the street and available... and failing that to get some quality reviews from some of the "qualified" (not like me) folks available.

At least when it does come out the potential reviewers should have a plethora of other offerings to provide comparison material!