Infocus IN72-IN74-IN76 [Text View] - Page 5

cavu

03-29-06, 09:06 AM

PAL is 720x576 and these DLPs are 1024x576Absolutely 576p is a pure PAL exercise floundering for additional suckers^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hmarket. Obviously, the displays are 1024 wide. What else could they be?? Well ... yeah ... they could be 768 wide (4:3) ... but what else??!!

DVDs are encoded at 720x480 (NTSC) and 720x576 (PAL).

As you probably are aware, there are no digital displays with a horizontal resolution of 720. Analog displays actually can have an effective horizontal resolution but, in the end, it is just a continuous scan line with a variable time-base.

A 480p display has a horizontal width of either 854 pixels (16:9) or 640 (4:3).

Likewise, a 576p display has a horizontal width of either 1024 pixels (16:9) or 768 (4:3).

The only way all this actually works at all well is the fact the the human eye is very insensitive to horizontal resolution.

But back to my point:

A 480p display can be 1:1 pixel-mapped from NTSC SD/ED sources and DVDs. Witness the "wave" of appreciation for precisely that fact from the new Bravo D1 cult. HDTV is always downscaled to 480p.

A 720p display can be pixel-mapped (not 1:1) from 720p HDTV (ABC, FOX & ESPN). All SD/ED sources and DVDs must be upscaled to 720p and 1080i HDTV and future hires DVDs will have to be downscaled to 720p.

A 1080p display will probably be able to be pixel-mapped (maybe even 1:1) from the "rumoured" HD DVD formats but everything else will have to be upscaled. I doubt that HDTV will ever get to 1080p - not in our lifetime.

A 576p display can be 1:1 pixel-mapped from PAL "SD/ED" sources and PAL DVDs, which are native to Europe, but there is no North American source that suits them. In North America nothing will pixel map to a 576 display.

Worst yet are the 768 displays which have no native pixel mapped source, 1:1 or otherwise, at all. Absolutely everything fed to them has to be up/downscaled.

Far better than a 576p display would be a 540p display. which at least could handle the 1/4 resolution from the new 1080 stuff. The only benefit that 576p offers a North American user is less SDE (allowing modestly closer viewing distances), but the mess created by the scaling obviates any other value. Tradeoff PQ for viewing distance? Not a worthwile choice.

Note that I am not endorsing any form of extracurricular scaling activity here; all digital displays already internally scale their inputs to their native display mode (a fact that oddly seems lost on so many otherwise bright people).

As to "upscaling" players, etc., see my sig. ;)

microbiologist

03-29-06, 09:46 AM

hmcewin

03-29-06, 10:02 AM

Thanks for the feedback and lively discussion. My logic for the IN 74 was that it appears to have better specs than the IN 72, but is significantly less expensive then the IN 76.

The comments about scaling are well appreciated. However, if you opt for a 720p like the IN 76 then all OTA material and DVD will have to be scaled. Won't they?

If you opt for a IN 72, will 480i material look better than than it would on a 570 or 720 machine even with lower specs in areas of brightness, contrast, etc?

I am not quite familiar with all of these issues and how they impact the final picture. If avoiding scaling is the penultimate issue, then would you only buy a 720 machine if you were exclusively watching HD?

I think most of us have a variety of different sources and I am not completely sure if avoiding scaling is going to possible. Given that condition, what is the best decision when choosing the native resolution of a PJ?

Regards to all.

I have a 576 machine that I watch HD on and an occasional dvd. It is an NEC Ht 510. I have also owned Infocus 4805, Infocus 5000, Sanyo z2. Sharp 300 and prefer the HD on the NEC 510 to any of them. It is quiter, sharper and the OTB picture is fantastic with the presets. So, for me the NEC was the best solution since 99% of my viewing is HD.

There is a discernable difference in resolution and sde with the 576 NEC over the Infocus 480.

I think you would be very happy with the Infocus 576 projector. Do not get tangled up in all this scaling discussion. It is for the technofiles. I let my SAt box do the scaling for the SD signals and it looks great.

pocoloco

03-29-06, 10:18 AM

Jason's review of the in76 is up. On/off is not even close to 3000:1 which is very disappointing. But the Color temp out of the box is outstanding.

agro1

03-29-06, 10:31 AM

Who cares about color temp....contrast is where it's at...I noticed Jason didn't comment much at all about the disappointing on/off...But hey, the new case desigen looks great :confused:
Thanks, but I'll stick with my measly 4805 until the 3 chip units come down.

pocoloco

03-29-06, 10:34 AM

Who cares about color temp....

huh? :confused:

agro1

03-29-06, 10:49 AM

huh? :confused:

I guarantee you 99% of the consumers out there have no clue what color temp means/does. Most only care about contrast ratio and brightness...and even then, those people trust the manufacturer’s claims which Jason proves in his review, are grossly overstated.
But that sleek new case design will for sure appeal to the (uneducated) masses....
I'm not trying to get into a pissing match...my point is that the marketing machine has taken grasp at InFocus and we the consumer are paying the price for abhorrently overpriced PJ's.

cavu

03-29-06, 10:53 AM

if you opt for a 720p like the IN 76 then all OTA material and DVD will have to be scaled.Yes. Well...not 720p OTA.If you opt for a IN 72, will 480i material look better than than itMy quick answer would be YES. I'll confirm that to you. I have one of each coming.would you only buy a 720 machine if you were exclusively watching HD?In a perfect world, yes. ;)what is the best decision when choosing the native resolution of a PJ?It should be based on your viewing habits. A film fanatic with a large library of standard def DVDs would likely be best off with a SP4805/IN72 (plus the Bravo D1 of course! ;)).

Likewise, it's a no brainer for someone who is a "sports" fanatic and watches ESPN or ABC Sports, American Idol, etc. on the 720p HDTV stations.

We have been having exactly this conversation in another forum and many of us are convinced that 720p doesn't do much for us at this point (can't tell the diff in resolution anyway in most serious theatres because of seating distance).

I couldn't care less about "sports" per se (although I watched most of the Olympics) and movie/DVD PQ is the penultimate for me so I'm likely hunkering down with my DVD library, D1 and SP4805/IN72 and the resultant spectacular PQ. I'll be saving my shekels for 1080p-wars to settle sown and some content to appear.

Although it is tempting to keep the IN76 too!

NoThru22

03-29-06, 10:58 AM

Likewise, a 576p display has a horizontal width of either 1024 pixels (16:9) or 768 (4:3).

A 576p display can be 1:1 pixel-mapped from PAL "SD/ED" sources and PAL DVDs, which are native to Europe, but there is no North American source that suits them. In North American nothing will pixel map to a 576 display.
How can a 1024x576 display be 1:1 pixel-mapped from a 720x576 PAL source? It can't!

And I was only hinting at it earlier, but I disagree with your signature, especially because it seems like sour grapes as you don't have a display that could take advantage of a good upscaling player like a Pioneer 59 or Onkyo 1000, so how do you know?

What DVD player would you recommend?

Q of BanditZ

03-29-06, 11:10 AM

How can a 1024x576 display be 1:1 pixel-mapped from a 720x576 PAL source? It can't!

Nope, it sure can't. And no, that includes the D1. Can't be done!

I figured I'd just head that off at the pass. ;)

And I was only hinting at it earlier, but I disagree with your signature, especially because it seems like sour grapes as you don't have a display that could take advantage of a good upscaling player like a Pioneer 59 or Onkyo 1000, so how do you know?

He doesn't.

That sig betrays some serious ignorance, lack of experience, sour grapes, or more than one of the above.

Kind of ironic also, given the display he lists in his profile.

What DVD player would you recommend?

Ha! This should be good.

Great questions, NoThru22. There's clearly some 747 jumbo sized holes in the logic running around here.

cavu

03-29-06, 11:12 AM

Jason's review of the in76 is up. On/off is not even close to 3000:1 which is very disappointing.Jason clearly stated that his theatre was not up to the task of measuring 3000:1 contrast ratios (ie. pitch black).

So the contrast ratio he quotes is likely more a measure of his room that the projector and he has neither confirmed nor dismissed the reality of a 3000:1 CR.

pocoloco

03-29-06, 11:17 AM

I guarantee you 99% of the consumers out there have no clue what color temp means/does. Most only care about contrast ratio and brightness...and even then, those people trust the manufacturer’s claims which Jason proves in his review, are grossly overstated.
But that sleek new case design will for sure appeal to the (uneducated) masses....
I'm not trying to get into a pissing match...my point is that the marketing machine has taken grasp at InFocus and we the consumer are paying the price for abhorrently overpriced PJ's.

Point taken. You should have said that to begin with instead of saying color temp doesn't matter and contrast is where it's at. If you actually are saying color temp doesn't matter, then I think you've got a lot to learn.

I'm thankful infocus at least takes the time to calibrate their projectors at the factory.

Ja Phule

03-29-06, 11:35 AM

1600:1 does sound a little disappointing. Jason achieved 2500:1 with the Samsung 710 in a similar (if not same) room. But it wouldn't be fair compare the 2 projectors anyway, different price points.

Lindahl

03-29-06, 11:39 AM

Does anyone have an anamorphic lens to test a 2.35 CH setup withe IN76? With the recessed lens and moderate throw range, I'm concerned about it being future proof (I want to go constant height before I move to 1080p).

agro1

03-29-06, 11:51 AM

Jason clearly stated that his theatre was not up to the task of measuring 3000:1 contrast ratios (ie. pitch black).

So the contrast ratio he quotes is likely more a measure of his room that the projector and he has neither confirmed nor dismissed the reality of a 3000:1 CR.

Agreed- but the on/off Jason achieved was nearly HALF of what IF claims....so would that mean Jason had 50% more light in his room ?? I doubt it since Jason said his room has no windows...
I guess I'm just disappointed with some of the claims IF is making with their new line, specifically the IN76. Yes, it's a better unit - as it should be. Is it worth the price jump from the 4805 which we all have come to love ?
I think not.
Sure, for us who pour over the minutia of each PJ and their associated pros and cons, this new line from IF is better. But remember, we here (especially those of us who like to play with capacitors ;) )are a very, very small percentage of the consumer market.

mjolson

03-29-06, 12:16 PM

Just saw the Powerbuy in my email - nice deal! I'd love to jump on this but would like to see a few more in-depth reviews first...

agro1

03-29-06, 12:22 PM

I'm thankful infocus at least takes the time to calibrate their projectors at the factory.

Why is that ? When you buy a car are you also thankful that they take the time to calibrate the fuel management system at the factory ? The way a car performs has a great deal to do with how it manages it's fuel - i.e. what you put into it.

So the same could be said for what you put into a projector - i.e. the source material. But no, you EXPECT that with a car - why wouldn't you expect the same when you buy a projector ?? Maybe you're used to CRT PJ's and cars with carburetors that run poorly...I dunno, call me crazy...but buying something and having it work the way it should out of the box is something I expect.

Or, maybe when I buy that new Porsche and the factory claims a 0-60 time of 4.5 seconds, and mine only does it in 7.0 seconds....I guess I'll just be thankful they made it for me to buy :confused:

JeffKB

03-29-06, 12:38 PM

I guess I'm just disappointed with some of the claims IF is making with their new line, specifically the IN76. Yes, it's a better unit - as it should be. Is it worth the price jump from the 4805 which we all have come to love ?
I think not.
From earlier in thread, stated by Bob Williams:

======================
"With the 4805 you can obtain the specified contrast by setting the color temperature to 7500K, white peaking to 100, and setting the zoom lens to its smallest image size. It was not an exaggeration. For the IN72, IN74, and IN76, the setup is similar to achieve the stated numbers. Each projector does vary to some degree, but these are real world numbers.

As is the case with almost every manufacturer on earth, however, the stated numbers are the maximum typically obtainable. I still believe that we are closer than most to the specified numbers, but they do not reflect how I would set up the projector in an ideal situation."
======================

There's absolutely no reason to believe that the IN76 won't be every bit as good as the 4805 when it comes to contrast. Keep in mind some reviewers got CR measurements from the 4805 in the 1500 range as well. If you're looking for a significant upgrade in CR performance, you'll probably have to break open the checkbook and step up to the next level - DC3.

If you're happy with the CR performance of the 4805 and want the advantages that extra resolution can bring, then I'm sure the IN76 is a nice step up. Don't sell resolution short. It's definitely not the most important factor, but it's a significant factor nonetheless. It allows you to sit closer for a more immersive experience. It provides for a smoother image that results in a greater perception of depth. Yes there's scaling involved, but there are noticeable benefits to offset that.

The common belief seems to be that as long as you sit 2x width with the 4805, 480p is just as good or better than 720p. I disagree with that. SDE isn't much of an issue at that range, but IMO you really need to get around 2.5 widths back for the image to get completely smooth with the 4805. It's most noticeable with fine details in long shots. For example crowd shots often look digital to me at 2x width.

Adding a Panamorph to my setup has produced noticeable (although sometimes subtle) improvements in this area. To my thinking, this is why the IN76 is a nice step up from the 4805 and why I plan on getting it, even though most of my viewing is still DVD. :)

pocoloco

03-29-06, 12:51 PM

pocoloco

03-29-06, 12:59 PM

Why is that ? When you buy a car are you also thankful that they take the time to calibrate the fuel management system at the factory ?

I'm simply happy that there is a projector that measures close to 6500k out of the box, which is not common place in the projector market.

I don't know why you keep rehashing the fact that manufacturers misrepresent their specs. We all agree to that and wish it wasn't the case. No one is arguing with you about that.

agro1

03-29-06, 01:03 PM

From earlier in thread, stated by Bob Williams:

======================
"With the 4805 you can obtain the specified contrast by setting the color temperature to 7500K, white peaking to 100, and setting the zoom lens to its smallest image size. It was not an exaggeration. For the IN72, IN74, and IN76, the setup is similar to achieve the stated numbers. Each projector does vary to some degree, but these are real world numbers.

As is the case with almost every manufacturer on earth, however, the stated numbers are the maximum typically obtainable. I still believe that we are closer than most to the specified numbers, but they do not reflect how I would set up the projector in an ideal situation."
======================

There's absolutely no reason to believe that the IN76 won't be every bit as good as the 4805 when it comes to contrast. Keep in mind some reviewers got CR measurements from the 4805 in the 1500 range as well. If you're looking for a significant upgrade in CR performance, you'll probably have to break open the checkbook and step up to the next level - DC3.

If you're happy with the CR performance of the 4805 and want the advantages that extra resolution can bring, then I'm sure the IN76 is a nice step up. Don't sell resolution short. It's definitely not the most important factor, but it's a significant factor nonetheless. It allows you to sit closer for a more immersive experience. It provides for a smoother image that results in a greater perception of depth. Yes there's scaling involved, but there are noticeable benefits to offset that.

The common belief seems to be that as long as you sit 2x width with the 4805, 480p is just as good or better than 720p. I disagree with that. SDE isn't much of an issue at that range, but IMO you really need to get around 2.5 widths back for the image to get completely smooth with the 4805. It's most noticeable with fine details in long shots. For example crowd shots often look digital to me at 2x width.

Adding a Panamorph to my setup has produced noticeable (although sometimes subtle) improvements in this area. To my thinking, this is why the IN76 is a nice step up from the 4805 and why I plan on getting it, even though most of my viewing is still DVD. :)

I agree, but this now takes a turn into personal preference and I'm not gonna touch that one with a 10' pole. Nonetheless, your commentary is a good starting point for anyone considering the move to the IN76 from a 480 PJ.

Jed M

03-29-06, 01:40 PM

Hmm, these numbers have got me wondering.

I received the power buy prices and I am really pleased with the price, but now I am not sure the IN76 will be that much better than the IN72 for me. I watch 40% HDTV, 40% DVDs and 20% SDTV. Anybody have any thoughts on which would be the best for me?

PLB

03-29-06, 02:11 PM

cavu wrote:
Note that I am not endorsing any form of extracurricular scaling activity here; all digital displays already internally scale their inputs to their native display mode (a fact that oddly seems lost on so many otherwise bright people).

That doesn't seem to be true. For example my InFocus X1 displays DVDs with excellent clarity. As you know this older generation box uses an 800 by 600 chip. This is native 4:3. The newer InFocus 4805 uses a native 16:9 chip of 854 by 480. The 4805 can map a DVD one to one so there is no scaling. The X1 also has no scaling because it maps one to one as well. It simply crops the edges. Please see the X1 FAQ from technut.

If a manufacturer wished to avoid scaling with a 576 chip on DVD material they could crop the output to the 854:480 matrix. It might be a better choice than scaling to the native resolution. Better yet would be a menu choice which allowed the user to choose.

cavu also wrote:
Worst yet are the 768 displays which have no native pixel mapped source, 1:1 or otherwise, at all. Absolutely everything fed to them has to be up/downscaled.
In fact the IN76 uses a chip that has a matrix natively 768 high. This new chip is cropped for video at 720 pixels high and displays full height 768 for computer displays. Please see the Audioholics review by John Scheuermann.

Lindahl

03-29-06, 02:19 PM

Jed, what's your seating distance? IMO, that's the only reason to go 720p, so you can get closer.

bubbawilly

03-29-06, 02:43 PM

In fact the IN76 uses a chip that has a matrix natively 768 high. This new chip is cropped for video at 720 pixels high and displays full height 768 for computer displays. Please see the Audioholics review by John Scheuermann.

I don't know about John Scheuremann, but Bob Williams stated that they did not activate all 768 pixels in the IN76. It uses only 720, regardless of source resolution.

NoThru22

03-29-06, 03:16 PM

PLB

03-29-06, 05:12 PM

bubbawilly said:
I don't know about John Scheuremann, but Bob Williams stated that they did not activate all 768 pixels in the IN76. It uses only 720, regardless of source resolution. Indeed. That was my point. The manufacturer cropped (i.e. did not activate) all the pixels in the physical chip.

I was responding to an earlier statement that all manufacturers displayed all of the pixels on the chip irrespective of the input resolution. That isn't so. InFocus has masked, cropped, or not activated 48 rows of pixels on the new TI chip so as to be able to display 1280 by 720 video. They did not electronically scale 720 into 768 so as to use every possible pixel. This sounds like a wise decision to me.

BTW last night Comcast Starx showed the widescreen Bruce Willis actioner Armegeddon in HD. However they seem to have cropped it to 16:9 whereas it was shot, I believe, in someting like 2.35:1. I only noticed when the credits came on at the end. Comcast also shows a lot of IMAX documentaries in HD. These were shot for the IMAX projector which at 21.5 by 15.6 is very close to 4:3. Presumably they are cropped when they are shown in 16:9 HD.

DigVid

03-29-06, 06:21 PM

BTW last night Comcast Starx showed the widescreen Bruce Willis actioner Armegeddon in HD. However they seem to have cropped it to 16:9 whereas it was shot, I believe, in someting like 2.35:1. I only noticed when the credits came on at the end. Comcast also shows a lot of IMAX documentaries in HD. These were shot for the IMAX projector which at 21.5 by 15.6 is very close to 4:3. Presumably they are cropped when they are shown in 16:9 HD.

Yep, I think we're gonna see a lot of this. It seems like this will be the industry's short term solution to making the widescreen and fullscreen people happy (or not) depending on how one feels about OAR. ;)

Ja Phule

03-29-06, 06:42 PM

At least they are cropping instead of doing that odd stretch side stretching TNT-HD does for non-HD movies. You can simulate this on the IN series in one of the aspect ratio options I believe, though I forgot the name of the mode.

billymac

03-29-06, 06:52 PM

so i gotta ask it again since nobody answered

would you buy two IN72's or would you buy 1 IN76?

krasmuzik

03-29-06, 07:15 PM

As Bob Williams acknowledged they play the contrast game fairer than anybody (only white peaking and near calibrated native temp). What they do which nobody else does is spec the lumens calibrated - which is way more important to your setup than contrast - contrast is highly dependent on having a total blackout room. Including all equipment LEDs and laptops - which is rather difficult to do when you are trying to run a calibration analysis and need to see what you are doing. Just to see how difficult this is - read my SP7210 review in my .sig

It would be foolish for anyone to compare a measured contrast against someone elses marketed contrast. I just measured one that in order to get the marketed contrast - you would have to turn off all greyscale processing, turn on the brilliant color feature (similar to white peaking), open the iris - take a white reading - close the iris manually - wait for the motor to engage - then take a black reading. Their marketed contrast is way more than the IN76 - but not a heck of a lot different than Infocus when calibrated. At some point with these ridiculous claims I fully expect to have to put the lens cap on to get the black reading to verify!.

You can pretty much assume that properly calibrated contrast will be about the same for HT optimized projectors using the same chip despite marketing claims unless there is a huge trade off in brightness vs. contrast by design. Even more likely - your room likely destroys any calibrated contrast that is remaining - so be sure never to hire a calibrator for an in-room contrast measure. But if you really want to know with the intention of buying the mythical contrast "winner" - then you need to pay attention to reviews by calibrators known for giving full disclosure.

It is rather silly when I see on the forum that someone bought a display because it verified out to 2200:1 when another one verified out to 2000:1. First of all you cannot see that little difference - second of all each lamp is going to have variant brightness vs. contrast tradeoffs that make those measures statistically identical, and thirdly how do you know the independent reviewers had the same level of blackout control, and fourthly how do you know the reviewer even knows how to properly measure contrast?

asdfman

03-29-06, 07:20 PM

does anyone have an opinion on connecting a pc to the in76? my primary usage would be to use a pc (for everything, gaming, web browsing, movies, etc) and xbox 360..

krasmuzik

03-29-06, 07:26 PM

so i gotta ask it again since nobody answered

would you buy two IN72's or would you buy 1 IN76?

Isn't this question much like - would you buy a sixpack of SP4805's or one SP7210? :D

HiHoStevo

03-29-06, 07:31 PM

One thing to consider in this 480p versus 720p debate that I have not seen mentioned is the SDE. With a 720p machine you can either sit much closer to the screen... or have a much larger screen (my choice) and still not be bothered by SDE with a higher resolution projector.

I viewed the IN72 and the IN76 at this last CES and while the IN72 had a nice picture... you had to be much farther back from the picture before the pixels melded together.... in my case I had to be outside the enclosure.

As my personal addiction is for LARGE screens, I will use a 720p machine until I can afford the entry fee for the 1080p units...... the Optoma HD81 at CES was on about a 130" screen and you had to be within 3 feet of the screen to see SDE!

Okay....... after posting I noticed I had not read the next full page of posts... so some of this has already been mentioned................ :p

krasmuzik

03-29-06, 07:32 PM

Agreed- but the on/off Jason achieved was nearly HALF of what IF claims....so would that mean Jason had 50% more light in his room ?? I doubt it since Jason said his room has no windows...
I guess I'm just disappointed with some of the claims IF is making with their new line, specifically the IN76. Yes, it's a better unit - as it should be. Is it worth the price jump from the 4805 which we all have come to love ?
I think not.
Sure, for us who pour over the minutia of each PJ and their associated pros and cons, this new line from IF is better. But remember, we here (especially those of us who like to play with capacitors ;) )are a very, very small percentage of the consumer market.

And which manufacturer are you comparing them to which has a better contrast claim? I have measured all of the contrast kings over the years - if you verify half the marketed rating at calibrated - you are doing rather well. Most people refuse to accept that information - since they bought based on the marketed spec.

My favorite comparison over the years was when the acclaimed contrast king NEC HT1000 - measured the same contrast as the Infocus SP7205 torch throne. There are still people that refuse to acknowledge that to this day.

krasmuzik

03-29-06, 07:43 PM

There is a lot cavu seems misinformed about in regards to scaling.

You can't 1:1 pixel map a DVD on the 4805 unless it leaves black bars on the right and left (I don't know. Does it? If it doesn't, then it's not 1:1.)

Actually you can indeed do that - it is called native mode scaling. It would of course require a DVD player capable of 720x480 output - which is rare since that is not even the intent of DVD to output the raw media format. DVD media is stored with 3:2 aspect ratio pixel array rather than 4:3 or 16:9. The DVD format itself is designed to have horizontal scaling - either compression 720 pixels down to 640 - or expanding them up to 854.

So it would seem the one that is misinformed is you.

pixel mapping refers to the output of the DVD player exactly matching the display digital panel - and the display having a native mode turning off scaling - to avoid multiple scaling algorithms in the signal chain adding multiple scaling artifacts - more commonly known as GIGO which results in a garbage pile.

Only a few specific DVD hardware players - and carefully optimized HTPC can accomplish that. Once you do that - you indeed can see the damage that multiple scaling operations do (aside from the one the DVD format intended of stretching to fullscreen or widescreen)

NoThru22

03-29-06, 08:02 PM

So it would seem the one that is misinformed is you.
If scaling is taking place, then 1:1 pixel mapping really isn't occuring. That's like saying if I have my HD Tivo hooked up through HDMI and I send a 1080i signal, scaled internally to 720p, to the projector, that it's 1:1 pixel mapping. It might be getting 1:1 from what the Tivo is trying to output, but it's 1:1 to the source.

billymac

03-29-06, 08:26 PM

Isn't this question much like - would you buy a sixpack of SP4805's or one SP7210? :D

kind of, but i'm a little discouraged by the contrast report from jason. i was hoping for a little more.

i'm looking to replace my panny ae700 and to be honest, the 4805 looks better imo, so really i'm wondering if i'd be just as happy buying an IN72 than spending twice that for an in76.

what are the differences between the 4805 and the IN72 other than the case and fan noise?

/edit

i should clarify. the 4805 looks better to me than the 700. i'm not saying that i'm thinking of buying a 4805. i'm just wondering if it would be worth it going to the in76 from the panny 700. to be perfectly honest, the resolution difference on the 700 isn't mind blowing to me, so a good 480p projector would suit me just fine if it was bright enough and had better blacks than the 700 (which wouldn't be tough to do). it could be however, that my eye is just seeing the physical limitations of the 700 and that a good 720p dlp projector would knock my socks off. i wish i could see it in person to see. i've got the money, but am just wondering if i'd be better suited picking up an IN72 for the case, the better contrast and then save my money for a DC3 down the road. the 700 has been a good everyday projector, but to me, HD images are soft on it and i want that crystal clear snap that infocus delivers upstairs. guess i should wait and see what others have to say.

SGinAZ

03-29-06, 08:48 PM

...I just measured one that in order to get the marketed contrast - you would have to turn off all greyscale processing, turn on the brilliant color feature (similar to white peaking), open the iris - take a white reading - close the iris manually - wait for the motor to engage - then take a black reading. Their marketed contrast is way more than the IN76 - but not a heck of a lot different than Infocus when calibrated...

HC3000U, eh? :D

Mupi

03-29-06, 09:13 PM

Actually you can indeed do that - it is called native mode scaling. It would of course require a DVD player capable of 720x480 output - which is rare since that is not even the intent of DVD to output the raw media format. DVD media is stored with 3:2 aspect ratio pixel array rather than 4:3 or 16:9. The DVD format itself is designed to have horizontal scaling - either compression 720 pixels down to 640 - or expanding them up to 854.

So it would seem the one that is misinformed is you.

pixel mapping refers to the output of the DVD player exactly matching the display digital panel - and the display having a native mode turning off scaling - to avoid multiple scaling algorithms in the signal chain adding multiple scaling artifacts - more commonly known as GIGO which results in a garbage pile.

Only a few specific DVD hardware players - and carefully optimized HTPC can accomplish that. Once you do that - you indeed can see the damage that multiple scaling operations do (aside from the one the DVD format intended of stretching to fullscreen or widescreen)

Interesting! So what is the output of a DVD player like Panasonic XP50 when
I set it in 16:9. Does it output 640x480 or 720x480 or 854x480

Mupi

03-29-06, 09:27 PM

I did some googling and found this link

http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/aspectratios.htm

so indeed 4805 is doing a 1:1 pixel mapping of DVD's
and no wonder DVD's look great on 4805!

Thanks Kraz.

Mupi

03-29-06, 09:48 PM

NoThru22

03-29-06, 10:26 PM

Interesting! So what is the output of a DVD player like Panasonic XP50 when
I set it in 16:9. Does it output 640x480 or 720x480 or 854x480
720x480.

krasmuzik

03-29-06, 10:42 PM

but one thing which is still not clear to me is how the letter box
format is displayed. In letter box it is in DVD resolution i.e 720x480
but not squeezed. Then in this case there is scaling? to either 640x480
for regular TV and 854x480 for SP4805?

sorry for the digression. better to get the basics straightened out :-)

Well in that case you are doing extra scaling if you use the letterbox mode. Rather than just the horizontal scaling converting the DVD signal from 720->854 or 640 - you also have the vertical scaling that removes the black bars - either the player or the projector could do that. When that happens you lose the advantage of scan line mapping - and the picture indeed does get softer - because of extra scaling issues - less source resolution - combined with interpolated scanline mapping. This is why anamorphic DVD's look better to videophiles.

The only way to preserve 1:1 mapping from the DVD media itself - would be to have a player/display that pillar boxes the 720x480 (native mode in SP4805) - then have a lens that stretches/compresses the optically - simply because digital does not support rectangular pixels. Since rectangular pixels do not exist - the reference to 1:1 mapping implies that the DVD player outputs the same resolution as the displays panel.

All of this is moot if we are discussing an analog connection and display - they do not have pixels - they have bandwidth. The AVIA lines of resolution test sweeps and patches will help you determine your bandwidth.

billymac

03-29-06, 11:00 PM

crussader

03-29-06, 11:12 PM

Could someone PM what the deal is on the IN72 if I pony up for the AVS Club membership?

[Info received...thanks for the response]

billymac

03-29-06, 11:28 PM

me too

Mitch P.

03-29-06, 11:35 PM

krasmuzik

03-29-06, 11:38 PM

720x480.

Maybe we should get BobW in on this one - DVI there really is no standard resolution for the interface - this whole EDID mess. HDMI if it was doing digital component conforming to REC601 480p I would think is 720x480p - leaving the scaling up to the display. But since HDMI also covers DVI - that also implies the interface resolution can be anything.

sunol

03-29-06, 11:41 PM

kind of, but i'm a little discouraged by the contrast report from jason. i was hoping for a little more.

i'm looking to replace my panny ae700 and to be honest, the 4805 looks better imo, so really i'm wondering if i'd be just as happy buying an IN72 than spending twice that for an in76.

what are the differences between the 4805 and the IN72 other than the case and fan noise?

The difference between the 4805 and the IN76 is addicting. There is no way I could go back to my 4805 now - after 5 days with the IN76. The PQ is better for DVDs, it is MUCH better for any HD content.
I can't say how much better the IN76 is then the IN72.... but if the IN72 is roughly a quieter 4805, then the IN76 is worth the extra money.
The info so far, including Jason's review, seem to suggest that the IN76 has a better PQ then the whole range of recent projectors in this price range (Z4, AE900, HD72, MC3000). I am also guessing the contrast compares favorably to these other recent entries. I think there were expectations of this projector competing with 3 chip models. Which it doesn't, but at street price it still seems like the best buy in the Under $3500 forum. Personally, I think this projector will last me a few years... then I can get my silent 3 chip 1080p model for $1500. :p

Mike

krasmuzik

03-29-06, 11:45 PM

since I do not have total blackout, together with the fact that I'm using a greatroom with tan walls and vaulted ceiling, tan carpet, I'm assuming that purchasing the more expensive 710AE over the IN76 is pointless. Correct? I'd be wasting 50% more money on a contrast ratio that I'd never see anyways right? Further, the black levels would be similar due to the above reasons even if I AM using a Firehawk material (which was purchased for future pj's anyways).

Right?

see the contrast at ambient thread in the .sig

If you had total blackout conditions - no source of light anywheres - then ON/OFF contrast is achievable in your room. Once you start adding any ambient light at all - the brighter projector has better in-room contrast than the dimmer projector - the contrast spec of either projector becomes irrelevant.

For ANSI contrast - a tan room will still reflect from the screen - the FireHawk helps here - a white room and matte white screen would be worse. But the only way to preserve ANSI contrast is a black velvet room.

So to preserve both contrast - we call it a bat cave - a black velvet room - with every source of light killed (even LED on the projector!). The closer you get to bat cave - the better it gets. We are talking cannot see your hand in front of your face darkness..

What is fun as a calibrator is to measure in-room contrast of both types in the typical watching environment - and astound people with the absurdly low contrast numbers that are achieved!

Of course that does not stop AVSers talking about contrast - the same as car boards talk about horsepower they will never use as they commute to work....

billymac

03-29-06, 11:47 PM

krasmuzik

03-29-06, 11:50 PM

kras

have you seen the in72?

supposedly the in72 has a few more lumens in ecco mode than the 4805. would you even be able to notice it? or do you think basically they'd look about the same? i edited my post above, can you have a look and give your advice? -- pretty please :)

It has a nice pretty box - install is waiting on electricians so I have not opened the box. Kinda sad when your hobby turns into a job - and you don't get too excited anymore about opening the projector box....cause it represents work....

danmetcalf

03-29-06, 11:55 PM

The difference between the 4805 and the IN76 is addicting. There is no way I could go back to my 4805 now - after 5 days with the IN76. The PQ is better for DVDs, it is MUCH better for any HD content.
I can't say how much better the IN76 is then the IN72.... but if the IN72 is roughly a quieter 4805, then the IN76 is worth the extra money.
The info so far, including Jason's review, seem to suggest that the IN76 has a better PQ then the whole range of recent projectors in this price range (Z4, AE900, HD72, MC3000). I am also guessing the contrast compares favorably to these other recent entries. I think there were expectations of this projector competing with 3 chip models. Which it doesn't, but at street price it still seems like the best buy in the Under $3500 forum. Personally, I think this projector will last me a few years... then I can get my silent 3 chip 1080p model for $1500. :p

Mike

That's some very good input ;) I'm internally debating between the In72 and 76, with the evil voice chanting "76, 76, 76........." My theater layout is going to be about 1.5x viewing distance so that strongly points to the 76. Also, they have different offsets, correct? 116% for the 76 and 128% for the 72 which also sways me toward the 76.

smithfarmer

03-30-06, 12:03 AM

Kinda sad when your hobby turns into a job - and you don't get too excited anymore about opening the projector box....cause it represents work....
You mean you to say that you don't get that same excitement anymore as Joe Montana, Dan Marino or John Elway did whenever they threw a TD pass? ;)

Mitch P.

03-30-06, 12:16 AM

thanks Kras, but humor me a bit more please. Since both projectors seem to be very similar in light output (according to Jason's test), it sounds like both are equally bright. Now it comes down to whether or not I'd see any benefit from going with the H710?

Jason's 710AE measurements:

Color Temp Out of the Box (DVI): 6672k
On/Off Contrast: 2564:1
ANSI Contrast: 609:1
Light Output (Theater Mode): 612 Lumens
Light Output (Bright Mode): 808 Lumens
Note: These measurements are not the full capabilities of the projector. Though my room is dedicated, it is not a testing facility so these specs are not as good here as they would test out in a true light controlled (or cave) room. Rather, these are more what one would expect to get in a similar room as mine.

knowing that his room is way more of a theatre environment than mine, I think I can basically throw contrast ratio (as a spec buying tool) right out the window.

Jason's IN76 measurements:

Color Temp Out of Box @6500k: 6491k
On/Off Contrast: 1599:1
ANSI Contrast: 563:1
Light Output (Normal Mode): 615 lumens
Light Output (High Power): 736 lumens

After reading your ambient vs CR thread, I can now see that it is worthless for me to spend money just to buy an additional 1000:1 contrast ratio. Buying on specs is absolutely insane and your thread and review just saved me a bunch of money. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

I have only one last question:
Jason questioned the IN76's black level performance. I'm assuming that the only thing my $$ towards the 710AE would buy me would be improved black level performance or is this also going to suffer due to my room?

krasmuzik

03-30-06, 12:40 AM

Have not read that review yet - suprised the lumens is so low - that would mean the IN76 is in SP4805 brightness territory - which is not the case as far as I am aware. Was same measurement technique and equipment involved? Brand new lamps fresh out of the box? Now I have to measure the IN72 as I already have someones 9' screen received! I consistently measured low power mode of the SP4805 from 600 to 800 lumen range (calibrated) - always above spec. So to say the IN76 was below spec bothers me as wrong. Also 1600:1 is what I just verified my old 1500hr lamp SP4805 was doing - and Bob says the In72 is realistic more - and IN76 is certainly more.

But lets run with those numbers at face value.

612 lumens on a 10' diag (123") firehawk at 2564:1 contrast is a black level of 0.009 ftL
615 ..ditto... at 1599:1 contrast is a black level of 0.015 ftL

Side by side in a dedicated room - maybe that is noticeable if you get your rack LEDs under control - and have a sealed door - no windows.. But check out my contrast at ambient thread for ftL of light pollution from various sources. You are not paying for a thousand more contrast - you are paying for six thousandths of a ftL more black. Is it any wonder that manufacturers do not spec black levels rather than contrast?

I have even tried to get a SP7205 customer who was down for service to try for a higher contrast SP7210 upgrade - by loaning it to him while he was down. In his media room with a wall of windows to the deck - which we had to install dark drapes even to see the screen at all - he said you can have it back - I can't tell the difference!

But yes I would agree - 90% of the installs out there are not in dedicated theater rooms - even amongst AVSers. 50% of them would claim they have light control - a true measurement would find that only 10% do - since they misunderstood that to mean they turned off the overhead light. That is my experience - and other dealers experience - that contrast is overrated compared to it's utility in installs. Basically if I walk into a room and don't stumble into something - it does not have light control. Even if I do stumble because it was bright outside and my eyes need to adjust - once they do and I can see the room - it does not have light control.

crussader

03-30-06, 12:44 AM

Which is a better mounting option for me using the IN72...

From the lens to the screen is a throw of about 15ft. Screen will be 106in diagonal greywolf. I would like the bottom of the projected image to fall about 33in above the floor. Projector will be mounted to a shelf on the back wall. The question is do I hang the IN72 from the bottom of the shelf like a ceiling mount, or set it on top of the shelf? Roughly what height would the shelf need to be for each of these mounting options?

This is my first projector and I'm a bit confused about the best way to set it all up.

P.S. I know I will be violating the seating distance rules for SDE, but I've seen the Mits HC100 on the greywolf at my seating distance and it works just fine for me.

entropy

03-30-06, 12:47 AM

There is a discernable difference in resolution and sde with the 576 NEC over the Infocus 480.

Do you find DVDs objectionable on the 576p projector, compared to the 480p projector?

(I'm considering the IN74 because I like the shorter throw length; I don't have a horse barn for a home theater like some posters seem to.)

~ Kiran <entropy@io.com>

smithfarmer

03-30-06, 01:12 AM

Basically if I walk into a room and don't stumble into something - it does not have light control.
I take it that is without the pj turned on. ;)

krasmuzik

03-30-06, 01:16 AM

entropy,

A 576P will have a softer DVD picture than a 480P - that is just basic gozinta math - 480P does not gozinta 576P very well. 576P will of course have a better HD picture.

You also have the percievable SDE/pixels issue. The Infocus rules are 2x screen width - 480P is fine, 5/3 screen width then need the 576P, 4/3 screen width gotta go to the 720P.

So if you watch more HDTV than DVD and want a bigger screen and have the bucks and consider yourself a Europhile with a PAL DVD player - step up to IN74EX otherwise stick with IN72. HDTV will still look better than DVD either way. Keep in mind the IN74EX is not sold online - local dealer EXclusive only.

krasmuzik

03-30-06, 01:18 AM

I take it that is without the pj turned on. ;)

I usually stumble there too cause I am like a moth blinded by the light! :cool:

Mupi

03-30-06, 03:39 AM

720x480.

I guess if a DVD is anamorphic it should output 854x480 right?
otherwise there is no 1:1 mapping in Sp4805 or IN72

DigVid

03-30-06, 06:56 AM

Keep in mind the IN74EX is not sold online - local dealer EXclusive only.
No, but for the sake of clarity the InFocus IN74 is sold at online authorized dealers (sans the 2-year EX warrantee)... ;)

Kysersose

03-30-06, 09:01 AM

If scaling is taking place, then 1:1 pixel mapping really isn't occuring. That's like saying if I have my HD Tivo hooked up through HDMI and I send a 1080i signal, scaled internally to 720p, to the projector, that it's 1:1 pixel mapping. It might be getting 1:1 from what the Tivo is trying to output, but it's 1:1 to the source. Agreed. Isn't that the whole point?

bub

03-30-06, 09:05 AM

But lets run with those numbers at face value.

612 lumens on a 10' diag (123") firehawk at 2564:1 contrast is a black level of 0.009 ftL
615 ..ditto... at 1599:1 contrast is a black level of 0.015 ftL

You are not paying for a thousand more contrast - you are paying for six thousandths of a ftL more black.

Kras,
Couldn't you also claim/say, "You are not paying for a thousand more contrast - you are paying for ~60% more black."

And if you could say that, meaning would it still be accurate, why would one chose to say it one way over the other?

I don't usually 'jump into' a thread like this but I do read them all and this has me interested. I have the IN72 so really no biggie to me.

George

billymac

03-30-06, 09:15 AM

wfeddern

03-30-06, 09:57 AM

I am considering an upgrade from an X1 to the IN76. The problem I have is my basement has a low ceiling (about 7'), and has a beam/heating ducts running through part of it which lower it almost a foot (about 2-3' wide straight across room).

Currently I have had to mount the X1 under the heat ducts, and point it upwards slightly, then correct with keystone.

I am looking at ways to mount an IN76 without having to resort to the upward tilt/keystone adjustment. To do this I would mount it on the opposite end of the room, directly to the 7' ceiling, and project towards the end with the heat ducts.

If I calculate the offset based on my screen size, is the offset measured from the top of the screen to the centre of the projector lens? And if so, can I draw a line from the centre of the lens to the top of the screen in order to see if the heating ducts would get in the way? (figuring a laser level would let me see the range that the ducts would not block). I am just not sure exactly what the light path the IN76 will project looks like.

bubbawilly

03-30-06, 10:03 AM

okay, so that's cool to hear. so if me thinks 4805 looks better than my panny 700, then the IN76 should look WAY better than my 700. ;)

i just wish the throw wasn't so different. i have to go up to a 106" and my wife is giving me a ton of grief about it.

i'll have to think on this. thanks for the reply sunol.

What does moving up to a 106" do to your viewing distance ratio? Don't forget that from several reports, SDE is visible at about 1.5x. That could present a problem for someone coming out of a Panasonic.

billymac

03-30-06, 10:42 AM

What does moving up to a 106" do to your viewing distance ratio? Don't forget that from several reports, SDE is visible at about 1.5x. That could present a problem for someone coming out of a Panasonic.

sde doesn't bother me. in fact i can ignore it. it's been my experience, that the worse the sde, the sharper the image--at least with infocus. i'm good with that. what i'm not good with is trying to convince my wife we need a 106" screen. :)

my throw is 14.583' and seating is under the projector and off to the side. the side seets will have noticeable sde for sure and i'm okay with that. i'm still really on the fence. i may just save my money, pick up an in72, keep my 92" screen and wait for a year or two for a DC3 box.

cavu

03-30-06, 12:26 PM

ugh, i'm having a tough time here. i thought the in72 and the in76 had the same offset, but they do not. i need my screen pretty close to the ceiling. can someone help me figure out where my image would be with a throw of 14.583' and the IN72 mounted pretty tight to the ceiling (lens would probably be about 6" from ceiling).A quick run with the calculator shows:Projector throw: 14.6ft

Screen Screen Projector
Diagonal Height Offset
Minimum: 95" 46.7" 12.9"

Maximum: 113.6" 55.7" 15.4"If your lens centreline is 6" from the ceiling, adding 6" to the offsets, that would mean the top of your screen will be between 18.9" and 21.4" from the ceiling.

Hope this helps.

CAUTION: Be sure to run the exact numbers in the calculator yourself !!

krasmuzik

03-30-06, 12:31 PM

Kras,
Couldn't you also claim/say, "You are not paying for a thousand more contrast - you are paying for ~60% more black."

And if you could say that, meaning would it still be accurate, why would one chose to say it one way over the other?

I don't usually 'jump into' a thread like this but I do read them all and this has me interested. I have the IN72 so really no biggie to me.

George

The point is marketing likes to use the biggest number that does not represent what you see - much like receivers rate in linear max watts even though you what you actually hear is much less - rated watts would be painfully loud and SPL is logarithmic not linear! But you would not buy a 10W receiver over a 100W receiver - but maybe you would if you new your room at your listening level used 5W - and that what you hear is dB which is logarithmic not linear!

The differences in black level are minor with most projectors nowadays - and washed out in a light uncontrolled room to the point of irrelevance - 1ftL is a very very dark room - you cannot see such small contrast differences except in a dedicated theater.

The story is contrast specs are inflated - it used to be you needed triple digits to be impressive even though that was not acheivable - then it became achievable - now the bar is set for quad digits for contrast - even though that is not really achievable. Big numbers even look more impressive - why 1000:1 jumped to 10000:1 is 9000:1 more contrast! - but if they listed black levels instead on a 12ftL screen which is what you actually see - people would realize vendors are fighting over ten thousandth place instead of thousandth place. Sure that is a difference of 10x on the spec sheet - but it is also a difference of a few tenthousandths when you compare side by side - and only on blackout scenes!

The reality is in an uncontrolled environments - you want a brighter low contrast projector to achieve contrast rather than a dimmer projector with high contrast - the contrast becomes an irrelevant spec. This is why biz projectors do not market based on high contrast - they market based on high lumens. More people have a setup closer to a dim conference room than a dedicated theater than they actually realize. I have been in a lot of dim rooms - but I have yet to have any customers that I would say have a dedicated light controlled theater - even myself when I thought I knew what I was doing - but measurements proved me wrong. I had to go to extreme measures taping off LEDs and putting towels over racks and along door seals and putting a no-opening sign on the utility room with the projector shelf - but WAF says you only get away with that for a few hours of critical measurements!

Even Jasons review of the IN76 contrast said this is not likely accurate - as it represents his room (whilst dedicated - gear lights, laptop lights etc.) - to get a true measure you need a black velvet room and be outside it with your gear!

krasmuzik

03-30-06, 12:33 PM

ugh, i'm having a tough time here. i thought the in72 and the in76 had the same offset, but they do not. i need my screen pretty close to the ceiling. can someone help me figure out where my image would be with a throw of 14.583' and the IN72 mounted pretty tight to the ceiling (lens would probably be about 6" from ceiling).

Bob posted the install spreadsheet to the thread but it has since been posted to the support page of each projector on their site.

http://www.infocus.com/service/IN72/downloads/in72-74-76%20calculator%20-%20english.xls

aoshiken

03-30-06, 01:20 PM

Bob posted the install spreadsheet to the thread but it has since been posted to the support page of each projector on their site.

http://www.infocus.com/service/IN72/downloads/in72-74-76%20calculator%20-%20english.xls

I think billymac is referring to the fact that the throw distance is not taken into account in order to calculate the screen to ceiling distance, in fact the Bob's spreadsheet says exactly "Minimum screen to ceiling distance" so i (and probably billymac) wonder what will be the screen to ceiling distance for a distance of 12.50ft and a screen width of 80" (for instance) :confused:

cavu

03-30-06, 02:06 PM

what will be the screen to ceiling distance for a distance of 12.50ft and a screen width of 80"The throw distance is completely irrelevant!!

The "offset" (being the distance from the edge of the screen to the centreline of the lens) is always the same proporton of the screen height!IN72 27.67%
IN74EX 14.72%
IN76 15.59%A screen width of 80" has a screen height of 45". The offset is therefore 45" x (15.59%) = 7.01"

krasmuzik

03-30-06, 04:09 PM

Plus the Infocus mount offset from ceiling to lens which is included in the spreadsheet - if you get a different mount you need to adjust the formula.

Dkolacz

03-30-06, 04:37 PM

I have a 4805 ceiling mounted now. I LOVE the height of the screen and I think it is perfect where it is.

If I get the IN76, will it be the same, higher, lower....is it adjustable?

Thanks

krasmuzik

03-30-06, 05:19 PM

It is higher (exactly how much - use the posted calculator). Of course you can tilt - or maybe your mount is adjustable.

But wouldn't you rather upsize your screen instead?! :D

billymac

03-30-06, 06:09 PM

what is the offset on the 4805? is the IN72 more or less or the same?

Ahzroe

03-30-06, 07:36 PM

does anyone have an opinion on connecting a pc to the in76? my primary usage would be to use a pc (for everything, gaming, web browsing, movies, etc) and xbox 360..

I am interested in hooking up a HTPC to my IN76. I would like to know this information as well. My IN76 is expected to be delivered on Saturday (ugh, April 1??). I hope it gets here in time to see the Final Four. Also, looking forward to seeing my favorite HD material, The Masters!

dmcdayton

03-30-06, 07:42 PM

I've always meant to ask you: Do you know what kind of contrast ratio there is for a movie theater? I swear my 4805 looks better for its size than our local megaplex.

Bob Williams

03-30-06, 07:58 PM

Maybe we should get BobW in on this one - DVI there really is no standard resolution for the interface - this whole EDID mess. HDMI if it was doing digital component conforming to REC601 480p I would think is 720x480p - leaving the scaling up to the display. But since HDMI also covers DVI - that also implies the interface resolution can be anything.

DVDs have a native resolution of 720x480, and it's the same no matter what aspect ratio. So if you want the projector to do all of the scaling then you should set your DVD player to output 480p or 480i, both of which are 720x480.

That being said, some DVD players, such as the Bravo D1, when set for 480p output will actually squish 4:3 content inside of a virtual 16:9 window, adding black bars on the side that do not exist in the content itself and therefore reducing the resolution. So for those DVD players it makes sense to set the output to the native resolution of the projector if possible so that the scaling is all being done inside of the player.

krasmuzik

03-30-06, 08:03 PM

dmcdayton

I have the spec for SMPTE movie theater somewhere around here - but 600:1 comes to mind. That might be for a private screening room - the digitial cinema theater here has aisles lights, dimmed cans, lobby lights polluting the screen -though they just bragged about upgrading every theater to Christie 2K digitals. You may find their projectors contrast ratio claim entertaining....

http://cinetopiatheaters.com/cinema/digitalc.htm

familiar number? :D

Jed M

03-30-06, 08:05 PM

Ok, I just bought the IN76 from the power buy. First, thanks for the great price AVS and Home Theater Supplies! Also, thanks to all the thread's regulars and their generous wealth of information. I am excited to have my first real HD projector!

Second I have a question about the M1 connection. Right now I am using an X1 and have the component to vga cable for my HD sources. All of my hd sources are hdmi/dvi except my xbox 360. I don't want to have to buy a 35 ft component cable just for my xbox and am hoping I can use my old X1's component to VGA cable and connect the VGA end to an M1/VGA adapter and still pass HD for my 360 (or anything else I may need component for)?

dmcdayton

03-30-06, 08:16 PM

Kras
Gee 2000:1 contrast ratio?

Wonder what it is with everyone's cellphone lit up?

krasmuzik

03-30-06, 08:20 PM

This is from the Digital Cinema specs

"
8.3.3.2. Ambient Level
Stray light on the screen is required to be minimized. The use of black non-reflective
surfaces with recessed lighting is encouraged.
With the projector turned off or with the lamp-house doused, measure the luminance off
the center of the screen. The ambient light level of a mastering environment reflected by
the screen is required to be less than 0.01 cd/m2 (.0029 ft-L).
For theatrical environments, the ambient light level reflected by the screen is
encouraged to be less than 0.03 cd/m2 (.01 ft-L). Safety regulations and the placement
of exit lights or access lights can result in a higher ambient light level. But, it is noted that this will reduce the contrast of the projected image.
"
http://www.dcimovies.com/DCI_Digital_Cinema_System_Spec_v1.pdf

That means the digital cinema theater standard is higher than SMPTE - at a whopping 1200:1 in-room ON/OFF (triple that for mastering facilities) (nominal 235 white - peak 255 white is 1400:1).

They also specify a higher gamma of 2.6 - this is like CRT gamma on your SP4805.

cavu

03-30-06, 09:31 PM

what is the offset on the 4805? is the IN72 more or less or the same?Didn't we already have this same exact discussion .... like back three months ago ... HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6855155&&#post6855155)??!!

Same people. Same questions. Same answers. It's ahhh ... like ahh ... deja vu all over again!

Sheesh ....

The SP4805 offset is 27.8%.

flyingbig

03-30-06, 10:09 PM

Is there any problem with me flipping this Projector upside down as my screen is low on the wall so it means i can set my PJ high behind me and get it to shoot onto my screen. Now i know the PJ will do this but i will not be mounting it to the ceiling but instead i just want to put the unit upside down on top of a high set of drawers behind me and i am wondering how the unit will sit upside down as it looks like it might be a little awkard.

billymac

03-30-06, 10:15 PM

thanks cavu, i'll admit it, i'm being lazy. :D

billymac

03-30-06, 10:19 PM

wait, cavu, now don't get mad, but LOL, so the IN72 and the 4805 have an offset that's pretty close, right?! 128% it says on the site, and your telling me the 4805 is 27.8

LOL, kick me when i'm down. :p

heck, i still can't decide what to do. i could buy a in72, pick up a new screen and buy a replacement 4805 bulb. or i could buy an in76. i'm itchin.

billymac

03-30-06, 10:22 PM

okay, last post and i'll shut up

has anybody reviewed the IN72?

kraz when you do that install, will you pm me some first impressions?

Mitch P.

03-31-06, 03:21 AM

The point is marketing likes to use the biggest number that does not represent what you see - much like receivers rate in linear max watts even though you what you actually hear is much less - rated watts would be painfully loud and SPL is logarithmic not linear! But you would not buy a 10W receiver over a 100W receiver - but maybe you would if you new your room at your listening level used 5W - and that what you hear is dB which is logarithmic not linear!

The differences in black level are minor with most projectors nowadays - and washed out in a light uncontrolled room to the point of irrelevance - 1ftL is a very very dark room - you cannot see such small contrast differences except in a dedicated theater.

The story is contrast specs are inflated - it used to be you needed triple digits to be impressive even though that was not acheivable - then it became achievable - now the bar is set for quad digits for contrast - even though that is not really achievable. Big numbers even look more impressive - why 1000:1 jumped to 10000:1 is 9000:1 more contrast! - but if they listed black levels instead on a 12ftL screen which is what you actually see - people would realize vendors are fighting over ten thousandth place instead of thousandth place. Sure that is a difference of 10x on the spec sheet - but it is also a difference of a few tenthousandths when you compare side by side - and only on blackout scenes!

The reality is in an uncontrolled environments - you want a brighter low contrast projector to achieve contrast rather than a dimmer projector with high contrast - the contrast becomes an irrelevant spec. This is why biz projectors do not market based on high contrast - they market based on high lumens. More people have a setup closer to a dim conference room than a dedicated theater than they actually realize. I have been in a lot of dim rooms - but I have yet to have any customers that I would say have a dedicated light controlled theater - even myself when I thought I knew what I was doing - but measurements proved me wrong. I had to go to extreme measures taping off LEDs and putting towels over racks and along door seals and putting a no-opening sign on the utility room with the projector shelf - but WAF says you only get away with that for a few hours of critical measurements!

Even Jasons review of the IN76 contrast said this is not likely accurate - as it represents his room (whilst dedicated - gear lights, laptop lights etc.) - to get a true measure you need a black velvet room and be outside it with your gear!

thanks Kras! Being an engineer, I just now got slapped in the face with the contrast wars vs what's actually seen. What I just read is what I've been waiting for this entire time. My room will not realize the additional contrast ratio, nor will I notice the black levels to any certain degree. I now have the information to make an educated decision on my first front projector to go with my first screen. The Firehawk should be 1.5wks out so I'd better get on the horn and order my IN76 :) Can't wait to enjoy my first in-home quasi theatre experience!

Very cool about Cinetopia as well! I had no idea!

picard1506

03-31-06, 09:15 AM

Guys, I´ve just read that Jason did a review on the IN76. Since I am a new kid on this block, could anyone tell me where to read it ? (sorry, CAVU!!) I am about to getting an IN76 and could not find any comprehensive review yet. Many thanks

cavu

03-31-06, 09:33 AM

I am about to getting an IN76 and could not find any comprehensive review yet.Here's a link to both existing reviews (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7395812&&#post7395812). ;)

picard1506

03-31-06, 11:20 AM

Thanks CAVU, however I cannot access the link, is it only for CLUB MEMBER?

Mitch P.

03-31-06, 11:45 AM

Thanks CAVU, however I cannot access the link, is it only for CLUB MEMBER?

that's interesting, I can't see them either.

cavu

03-31-06, 12:02 PM

Thanks CAVU, however I cannot access the link, is it only for CLUB MEMBER?Sorry! That is probably the case but it hadn't occured to me.

There is that message repeated:

Here are the two first reviews available for the InFocus IN76.Audioholics Review (http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/InFocusIN76DLPprojector.php)
AVS Review (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7393373&&#post7393373)

picard1506

03-31-06, 02:17 PM

Thanks CAVU you´re a pal! This info would be of great help.

csmab

03-31-06, 02:39 PM

I know that the IN76 has a higher resolution than the 5700, but does everyone believe that this would be a step up in performance over my 5700? The 5700 does a great job on standard DVD's upconverted to 720P. I have a 120 inch Firehawk screen. I want to make sure the IN76 puts out as much light in a real world environment. Any thoughts???

danmetcalf

03-31-06, 04:18 PM

Well, I'm officially IN ;) , I just ordered the IN76 through the club power buy special! I'll probably start off with a 7ft wide DIY SS on 1/2" MDF and see how that looks :)

NoThru22

03-31-06, 07:00 PM

My projector just arrived. Modified the Toshiba mount to accept it, ran the DVI cable, and hooked that puppy up! My first impression: the screen size is too small! Yes, the maximum zoom at my location doesn't fill up 101"! I am going to have to move back to the next stud. Grrr. The picture is fantastic though! The colors are great out of the box but especially the component looks much better than the Toshiba MT700. I can't explain it, but the Xbox 360 just pops a lot more. I can see a little more SDE (I am at about 1.5x) but it's not a dealbreaker. After I turned it off and the Xbox off as well, the noise seemed a little high, but not higher than the MT700. I will have detailed impressions and a comparison to the MT700 later this weekend.

cheezmo1

03-31-06, 09:39 PM

How far back is it now? Is that 101" wide or diagonal? i don't know what people mean when they say screen size.
thanks,
tom

danmetcalf

03-31-06, 10:31 PM

NoThru22

03-31-06, 10:51 PM

Yes it is 101" diagonal. It's about 10.5 feet back now. It's going to kill me to move all the cables as the wall they are coming out of will have a stud in between there and the new place I want them to come out.

crussader

03-31-06, 10:51 PM

Well, my IN72 is on the way. Any suggestions for a mount (preferably something around $50 or less)?

BrandonJF

03-31-06, 11:10 PM

but does everyone believe that this would be a step up in performance over my 5700

I'm in the same boat. I'd love to have a 720p projector given that I seem to be watching more HD content than DVD. It's just gonna be a hassle to move up to the IN76 since I've got my 5700 16.5' back from my 88" screen. If I got the IN76, I'd have to move it 4' closer to keep the screen (getting a 120" diagonal screen is out of the question). If I were to get it, I'd more than likely get a 100"-110" screen so I don't have to move it quite so far up.

It's just hard to gauge without seeing it if it's gonna be worth it.

smithfarmer

03-31-06, 11:29 PM

It's just gonna be a hassle to move up to the IN76 since I've got my 5700 16.5' back from my 88" screen. If I got the IN76, I'd have to move it 4' closer to keep the screen (getting a 120' diagonal screen is out of the question). If I were to get it, I'd more than likely get a 100'-110' screen so I don't have to move it quite so far up.
16.908' is the max distance to mount the IN76 for a 120" screen. You'll be fine right where you're at. It's preferable to be closer to the max distance range than it is to be at the minimum. The less zoom used the better.

HVLP

03-31-06, 11:33 PM

From Jasons IN76 Review.

I just got in the new IN76 from Infocus. This is their latest 1280x720 DLP that retails for $2995. It uses the new, slightly smaller DC2 chip that came out from TI, and a 6 segment, 5x color wheel.

Is it really 5X or 4X?

smithfarmer

03-31-06, 11:40 PM

BrandonJF

04-01-06, 12:03 AM

16.908' is the max distance to mount the IN76 for a 120" screen. You'll be fine right where you're at.

I actually have an 88" now. I was just saying I would have to get a 120" if I were to leave the projector where it's at now and moved from the 5700 to the IN76. That would have been appealing, but the wall my screen is on just won't accomodate the width of a 120" screen.

NoThru22

04-01-06, 12:09 AM

Here are my impressions from a night of Xbox 360, DVDs, and HD Tivo. The main purpose of this post is to compare the projector to my now defunct Toshiba MT700. All I wanted was the equivalent of that experience (minus the bulbs exploding) and I would be happy. I'm happy. As I said in my earlier post, all the colors seem spot on right out of the box. The blacks seems spot on, but check out my gallery and you’ll see I have walls with a LRV of 5, which means they absorb 95% of all light.

I had a lot of little nitpicks with my MT700. The overscan, even after the latest firmware, was a pain in the ass to adjust. If you watch any SD shows on an HD Tivo you can see the timecode at the top and you have to go in and click each percentage down to get rid of them (about 3.) The Infocus just has three modes, one of which seems to auto-zoom that 3 percent. Easy. Also this is the first projector that I mounted on the ceiling and it automatically knew where it was so I didn’t have to figure out the menus upside down. I thought that was cool. Unlike the MT700, this projector will allow 480i over HDMI! I was hoping this would be a lot queiter than the soundbeast the MT700, but I was mostly wrong. It might be just about as loud, but it’s a steady sound of moving air. The thing that drove me nuts about the MT700 was the fact that you could hear whatever was causing the noise (the fans? the colorwheel?) changing speed all the time. This is one constant sound and I’m good with that.

I don’t like the component input on the Toshiba MT700. Even after they “fixed” that Japan/USA setting that crushed blacks, I still found the component to be a lot more murky in dark colors no matter how much I tweaked it. I also got a sense of a lot of aliasing, but I might just be crazy. I’m pleased to say the component input on the Infocus seems to be as good as the HDMI. The difference when I booted up the Xbox 360 was instantly apparent. The colors seem to pop a lot more and I swear it’s clearer, but that could be the SDE (more on that in a bit.)

The difference of having my HTPC go over DVI instead of analogue BNC (RGBHV) cables is stunning. There was some kind of error in the MT700 that preventing it from synching (or identifying itself) to my Geforce 6600 over HDMI (using a DVI adapter) so I had to go DVI -> VGA -> BNC and the results were not pleasing. Text was fuzzy, not all in one spot, but in bands that went down the screen every few inches. Now everything over DVI is uniformly clear. Too much so in the case of Half Life 2 and Counter-strike, which I used to run without AA. Now I need a better video card!

I like being able to turn off the power without having to press the power button twice. Yes, that is a tiny nitpick. Yes, it matters to me.

Like the MT700, it allows you to change aspects while watching HD sources. This is good so I don’t have to switch from 720p when I watch SD shows I need to zoom like Justice League and Battlestar. I only mention this because some TVs lock you out in HD modes. You can also change all your color, contrast, gamma, etc. settings in HD over HDMI and Component for the poster that was worried about that earlier.

Minuses: It definitely has a touch more SDE than the Toshiba. This is caused by the smaller DLP chip. I sit at 1.5x screen distance and I can definitely see it in white areas, but not so much to bother me. I might try to defocus the projector slightly to combat this. A plus is that the whole shebang seems a lot sharper, which may be a side effect of the bigger SDE. I don’t like the remote. This doesn’t matter as I have a Pronto 3000, but I still want a lot of discrete buttons on my remotes. Maybe someone can help me figure out the hex codes.

I checked out the scaler. First I played around with the HD Tivo and I found mostly the opposite of Infocus’ claims about this new scaler (yes I know they compared it to the faroudja.) First, it seems to do a better job converting from 480i than the Tivo does. This is moot because the Tivo does not offer a native output option and I am too lazy to manually switch. But surprisingly the Tivo seems to do a better (much better) job of converting 1080i to 720p. Looks like I’m leaving my Tivo in 720p mode all the time. Then I compared the scaler to the DCDi built into my Panasonic S97 over component. The 480p picture looked beautiful, as always, from the Panny. I was surprised at how good the 480i picture looked through the Infocus, though. I could still see a little fuzzyness here and there, so I will leave the Panny to do it’s thing, but I was happy with the color reproduction at 480i. I used the Fifth Element Ultimate Superbit and Star Wars Episode II for comparison.

In conclusion, for those of you who want a good successor to your multi-imploded (patent pending on that word) Toshiba MT700 and BenQ 7700’s, nitpicky Tom recommends the Infocus IN76!

smithfarmer

04-01-06, 12:21 AM

I actually have an 88" now. I was just saying I would have to get a 120" if I were to leave the projector where it's at now and moved from the 5700 to the IN76. That would have been appealing, but the wall my screen is on just won't accomodate the width of a 120" screen.
Speed reading error on my end. :)

HiHoStevo

04-01-06, 12:27 AM

Tom............

Too bad you do not have an HD 72 and a 710AE......... I love nitpicky reviews.....

smithfarmer

04-01-06, 12:38 AM

ender21

04-01-06, 01:22 AM

But surprisingly the Tivo seems to do a better (much better) job of converting 1080i to 720p.

That's surprising. I expected the finding to be the opposite. The IN76 motion-adaptively deinterlaces 1080i to 1080p then scales to 720p, whereas the HDTivo "bobs" 1080i to 540, then upscales to 720p, thereby robbing you of 180 pixels of picture resolution, theoretically (and in a nutshell).

Rick

htimsda

04-01-06, 07:43 AM

Tom............

Too bad you do not have an HD 72 and a 710AE......... I love nitpicky reviews.....

My thoughts exactly.

Tom,

Any particular reasons why you went with the IN76 over the HD72?

VideoDrone

04-01-06, 07:49 AM

after reading Turks IN76 review, I am so glad I got my SP5000!, seems Infocus has missed the market again, the used to be an industry leader, now there just another "me too" maufacturer. But they will soon drop their pricing to compete, so its all good. I saw the IN line prototypes this year at CEDIA, and I thought they were good, but not great.

ssj2

04-01-06, 07:54 AM

You can also change all your color, contrast, gamma, etc. settings in HD over HDMI and Component for the poster that was worried about that earlier.

Thanks Tom. From someone in your same boat coming from a MT700 I really appreciate the review. Can you report as to whether the picture controls are also available over DVI? If not it's time to sell the Oppo. Thanks.

JeffKB

04-01-06, 09:05 AM

after reading Turks IN76 review, I am so glad I got my SP5000!, seems Infocus has missed the market again, the used to be an industry leader, now there just another "me too" maufacturer.
Ya, Jason slammed it all right: :cool:

"Next, I plugged in my Denon DVD3910 (and adjusted it to maximize performance). It fed a 720p signal through HDMI into the IN76. Gorgeous.

...All in all I am impressed with the unit. It offers a lot of bang-for-the-buck. Its strong points are the bright image, small and sleek case design, multiple input flexibility, and clean image. The main “downside” is that there are units that are capable of better black levels (of course for more money).

In the sub $3k MSRP price range, this just might be the unit to beat from what I have seen to date. Anyone who is considering something in this general range owes it to themselves to take a good look at this piece."

========
What were you looking for? A 720p DLP for the price of your SP5000? If you're talking about the $2999 MAP, significant discounts are already fairly easy to find.

yiorgo1313

04-01-06, 09:25 AM

How do you calibrate with avia for color and hue.There is a color adjustment under picture settings but no hue.I know there are advanced color options but i think the RGB gains and offsets are for isf techs.Any thoughts?

NoThru22

04-01-06, 10:15 AM

NoThru,

An ND2 filter might help in reducing the SDE. Many of us with 4805's are using one and find them beneficial. With the IN76 being brighter than the 4805, I can imagine many who upgrade from the 4805 will try and figure out how to fit one on their IN76 as well.
I never imagined using an ND2 filter with my Toshiba and I probably won't with this as I'm happy with the brightness, contrast, and color the way they are.
That's surprising. I expected the finding to be the opposite. The IN76 motion-adaptively deinterlaces 1080i to 1080p then scales to 720p, whereas the HDTivo "bobs" 1080i to 540, then upscales to 720p, thereby robbing you of 180 pixels of picture resolution, theoretically (and in a nutshell).

Rick
I'm not so sure about that. I think maybe people assumed the HD Tivo uses a cheap scaler, but my initial impressions (and I went back and forth a bunch of times) showed a much softer picture when I let the projector do the conversion. Almost like lost resolution.
My thoughts exactly.

Tom,

Any particular reasons why you went with the IN76 over the HD72?
I asked a couple of dealers and then I read a few negative things about the HD72. I can't say I did exhaustive research on the HD72, as I don't like to act like I know more than I do.
Thanks Tom. From someone in your same boat coming from a MT700 I really appreciate the review. Can you report as to whether the picture controls are also available over DVI? If not it's time to sell the Oppo. Thanks.
You're welcome! I always try to contribute the things I'd like to see myself here, unless I'm being a smartass, but I like when people do that too. :P All the controls appeared to be accessible during DVI, I'm about 95% certain I looked.

HVLP

04-01-06, 12:17 PM

Can anyone find the low lamp db rating of the IN76. I sold my L300u and need a new PJ asap but one of the reasons for buying the L300u was the 28db rating one of the lowest at that time. The PJ will be only 4' over my head been looking at HC300u, HD72, H710ae and IN76 Infocus is the only one that I cant find a rating on? The Optoma 7100 is 32db in low lamp mode thats a no go.

FlyingGimp

04-01-06, 12:25 PM

krasmuzik

04-01-06, 12:25 PM

Infocus does not market dB specs - there is no standard for measuring them - and manufacturers have every incentive to make this as low as possible. Thus you should not make dB specs a requirement for purchase or elimination. You should hear them for yourself.

bubbawilly

04-01-06, 12:29 PM

Thanks Tom!

I'm a former PE7700 owner, so I'm especially glad to hear that you're happy with the IN76. Based on IF's track record, you won't have to hold your breath each time you use it wondering whether this will be the time the lamp explodes.

Unfortunately for me, the fan noise, along with the cheap chip's SDE will keep me looking.

I'll bet people would pay to come to your place just to bash your MT700 with a sledgehammer. You may even be able to offset the entire cost of the IN76!

BTW, what's up with the resurgence of SDE? I can understand how it would be slightly more with this new, smaller, cheaper chip, but what gives with SDE at 1.75x on the new DC3 Optoma??

cavu

04-01-06, 12:29 PM

Can anyone find the low lamp db rating of the IN76.Don't hold your breath. InFocus won't quote a spec other than "the IN7x series is quieter in high power than the SP4805 is in low power"! ;)

Apparently they simply do not wish to join a pissing contest where no-one else uses a standardized measurement.

Some intrepid reviewer should take a bunch if these machines into an anechoic chamber for a shoot-out.

HVLP

04-01-06, 12:34 PM

Seeing them in person would be great but we dont all live in large cities. I am forced to buy sight unseen the only place that has a PJ setup is over 100 miles away, and they are what they consider too high end to carry any of the projectors im looking at? Some of us are forced to read these forums and use the listed specs as our only guides before making a purchase.

bubbawilly

04-01-06, 12:38 PM

HVLP

04-01-06, 12:47 PM

Thanks bubbawilly down to the IN76 or the H710ae now due to offsets of the HD72 and HC300u.

bubbawilly

04-01-06, 12:53 PM

Thanks bubbawilly down to the IN76 or the H710ae now due to offsets of the HD72 and HC300u.

I should add that there was a firmware update to the MT700 that increased the fan speed (noise) from the original 30dB spec. I almost forgot about that.

Tom can confirm whether he had that update, and whether he remembers about how much it increased the fan noise. His reference to the MT700 as a "soundbeast" tells me that the increase was substantial.

NoThru22

04-01-06, 01:40 PM

When you were comparing the HDTivo vs. the IN76 1080i deinterlacing were you watching OTA recordings or DirecTV broadcasts?

DirecTV seems to be universally transmitting HD Lite signals: 1280x1080 instead or 1920x1080.

I'd imagine that the fewer conversions in:

1280x1080i -> 1280x540p -> pj -> 1280x720
(who knows if the Tivo actually takes the least step route)

could look better than:

1280x1080i -> 1920x1080i -> pj -> 1920x1080p -> 1280x720

Do you see any difference in 1080i deinterlacing performance in OTA vs. DirecTV HD feeds?
I watched Bikini Destinations on DirecTV and CSI from CBS OTA. The results both looked about the same.
BTW, what's up with the resurgence of SDE? I can understand how it would be slightly more with this new, smaller, cheaper chip, but what gives with SDE at 1.75x on the new DC3 Optoma??
The SDE is only a tiny bit more. It's not a dealbreaker or even a bother. I just didn't want people thinking it was a lot less or gone.
The MT700 that Tom had was rated at about 30dB in eco mode, and he stated that the IN76 is roughly equal.
When I used an SPL meter from a distance I thought the fans blowing air would no longer be an issue, I measured over 50 dbs on my MT700.

cavu

04-01-06, 02:07 PM

When I used an SPL meter from a distanceTherein lies the problem in a nutshell and an excellent example of why InFocus, in particular, currently refuses to play specsmanship with noise levels.

"At a distance" is completely and utterly meaningless!!

Is a jet engine "loud"? Not from 30,000ft.

Is a mosquito "quiet"? Not when it is in my ear!

Comparative noise measurements require a reference point or a "standard"; while there is no lack of standards on how to measure and declare noise emissions, there is no widespread adoption of any standard by the industry.

The world’s two most important standards for IT noise declarations are ISO 9296 and ECMA-109, on which ISO 9296 is based.

If you are really interested in the nuts and bolts of noise measurement and comparison, there are many resources available but this article (http://www.quietpc.com/gb-en-gbp/pcnoise) is an excellent primer for lay people!

JeffKB

04-01-06, 02:11 PM

BTW, what's up with the resurgence of SDE? I can understand how it would be slightly more with this new, smaller, cheaper chip, but what gives with SDE at 1.75x on the new DC3 Optoma??
Brightness and quality of optics can make SDE more noticeable as well, so I wouldn't be too quick for everyone to assign blame solely on the new-chip-has-more SDE theory. It could be caused by a variety of reasons. Keep in mind the Audioholics review of the IN76 was comparing the new chip to a DC3 projector. The DC3 chip has a greater fill factor than DC2 (both the new 768p chip and older HD2+). Any advantage the HD2+ chip has over the 768p chip would be less.

Although brightness and sharp focus cause SDE to be more visible, they also bring their own positive attributes to compensate for that.

Robert Clark

04-01-06, 03:11 PM

csmab

04-01-06, 04:09 PM

Does the current Infocus mount that fits the 5700,7200,7205,7210 work with new IN76?

Uatatoka

04-01-06, 04:09 PM

That's surprising. I expected the finding to be the opposite. The IN76 motion-adaptively deinterlaces 1080i to 1080p then scales to 720p, whereas the HDTivo "bobs" 1080i to 540, then upscales to 720p, thereby robbing you of 180 pixels of picture resolution, theoretically (and in a nutshell).

Rick

Perhaps he is seeing deinterlacing artifacts that aren't there when 'bob' converted to 720p (no deinterlacing with this method). If the artifacts from deinterlacing are more noticeable or bothersome than the loss of vertical resolution then the 'bob' method may be preferable, especially in scenes with lots of motion.

bubbawilly

04-01-06, 04:13 PM

At the two CES displays of the IN76, SDE was the one factor that stood out to me...

Thanks Robert. That's what I was worried about.

Sounds like IF's implementation of the new chip is at least one step backward from HD2+ wrt SDE.

bubbawilly

04-01-06, 04:20 PM

...Keep in mind the Audioholics review of the IN76 was comparing the new chip to a DC3 projector. The DC3 chip has a greater fill factor than DC2 (both the new 768p chip and older HD2+)...

I'm not referring to the audioholics review. I'm going by Tom's comparison with the MT700, and that is a HD2+ based projector.

I had the MT700's BenQ brother. I could see SDE at 1.5x+, but only in brighter scenes, so I could live with it. Now, were talking a lower fill rate and higher brightness.

cavu

04-01-06, 05:28 PM

Does the current Infocus mount that fits the 5700,7200,7205,7210 work with new IN76?InFocus specifies the SP-CEIL-UNIV ($234 MSRP) (http://www.infocus.com/Products/Accessories/Mounts/SP_CEIL_UNIV.aspx) for the IN7x series.

BrandonJF

04-01-06, 05:33 PM

Does the current Infocus mount that fits the 5700,7200,7205,7210 work with new IN76?

I e-mailed InFocus via their website and was told I would need to buy the universal mount. I checked out the manual for their universal mount and it looks like I just barely missed being able to drill another hole into my current plate and getting it to work. It looks like the hole on the right side of the universal mount adapter plate that the IN76 would use just missed the plate I currently have for the 5700.

NoThru22

04-01-06, 05:57 PM

When I say I used the SPL meter "at a distance" I meant a distance far enough that I thought airflow from the far was not futzing with the results. This is still literally right in front of the projector. I don't know where they got the 26 db rating from. I think it was quieter before the firmware update, as the noise never bothered me at first, but lately it had been driving me nuts. As I said in my write-up, it was the constant changing of the noise, about once a minute, that was really irksome. I can get used to a noise that stays the same. Not rrrrrrr GRRRRRRR rrrrrrr GRRRRRR.

Is there any writeups anywhere on what kind of scaler is used in the HD Tivo or how it works? Or is it just conjecture like a lot of the stuff on here?

geocab

04-01-06, 05:59 PM

I can get used to a noise that stays the same. Not rrrrrrr GRRRRRRR rrrrrrr GRRRRRR.

:D:D I don't mean to laugh, but that's too funny not to. :D:D

FredProgGH

04-01-06, 06:36 PM

At the two CES displays of the IN76, SDE was the one factor that stood out to me...

But that's only relative to other 720p machines, right?? In other words, if I'm currently watching a 4805 at a distance that SDE doesn't bother me, and I put up a IN76 and sit at the same place the increased res is going to make a substantially smoother image won't it??

Lmuller1

04-01-06, 07:15 PM

I thought the "standard" for db measurements was supposed to be 1meter or 1 yard. Sounds like you are measuring WAY too close.

HiHoStevo

04-01-06, 07:21 PM

cavu

04-01-06, 07:33 PM

When I say I used the SPL meter "at a distance" I meant ... This is still literally right in front of the projector.Still a "useless" reading.

dB SPL specs are usually specified at 1m - not "literally right in front". SPL diminishes with the square of the distance.

Now if you had taken an SPL reading with the 'old' firmware, changed the firmware and taken another reading with the 'new' firmware, regardless of your technique and so long as it was consistent, you would then 'generally' be able to say the the second setup was X dB louder or quieter than the first.

But that is about it in terms of your ability to use your readings to refer to anything.

Now, was your reading "A" weighted or "C" weighted? Was the projector in an anechoic environment? What was the ambient noise level?

Re: 26dB. Where did you get that from?

Mupi

04-01-06, 08:45 PM

Will people ever stop asking questions about SDE, seating distance,
offset, screen size, mouting etc etc.

It might be a good idea to have a separate thread for all basic questions like what is the offset
what is the mount size
what is the screen size
when is SDE not an issue
what is the contrast
etc etc.

and another thread where people only talk about the performance.
This thread is going no where.

Perhaps we could just leave all the posts of Bob in this thread and delete the
rest and start 2 threads 1) for all basic questions 2) only performance.

Mupi

04-01-06, 08:49 PM

regarding SDE

Just sit at 2X distance and stop discussing about SDE.
if you still see SDE just move back. There is no point just ranting about the
same topic over and over. There is no solution for SDE unless you want to
spend extra $$ and get the expensive 720P units.

HVLP

04-01-06, 08:54 PM

Quote

There is no solution for SDE unless you want to
spend extra $$ and get the expensive 720P units.

Or the less expensive Panny LCD.

eclipse98

04-01-06, 09:03 PM

danmetcalf

04-01-06, 09:29 PM

kevivoe

04-01-06, 09:47 PM

Today I had IN76 demo with John Schuermann who posted his review on Audioholics web site. Just wanted to let everybody know -- he mentioned that this review was based on pre-production model of IN76, now he has retail version and in his opinion there is a big difference in picture quality between them (may not be his exact words but something close to that) -- retail version is better. He is planning to update his review based on retail version of IN76.

So you might want to wait for his updated review before you write IN76 off your list.

For those of you concerned about IN76 SDE: I have 20/10 vision and I did not see any SDE at 1.0x distance -- your results may vary ;) .

HTH, Davie.

I respectfully disagree that there would be a difference from pre-production to production. The DMD that matters did not change, the optics did not change. Your reviewers opinion is the thing that changed IMHO. I suspect the caution generated on this forum by the review prompted an "update" so as to not damage the sales.

I ordered an IN76 last week anyway because I think it the PJ to beat in this generation of low cost 720p DLP.

K

bubbawilly

04-01-06, 10:16 PM

Will people ever stop asking questions about SDE, seating distance,
offset, screen size, mouting etc etc.

No.

Last time I looked, questions and answers about installation factors are a big part of this forum, and the factors you cite happen to be very important with regard to helping one determine if the the InFocus projectors will work in their environment.

You're more than welcome to start your own thread if you don't like this one. ;)

billymac

04-01-06, 10:18 PM

hey, question

are the in72 and in76 going to be able to do pixel mapped resolutions with htpcs? 854x480 (or 848, whatever) and then 1280x720 respectively?

i assumed they would, but then question it now because all of the resolutions listed under "data compatability" are all 4:3 resolutions for both of them. i can't hardly believe it wouldn't be possible, but just checking...

/edit

this really concerns me, because the 4805 lists 854x480 in its data compatability list...this has me worried. that would actually be somewhat of a dealbreaker for me actually as I use my PC for everything except HDTV. can someone confirm that these will sycn to 854x480 and 1280x720 with pcs?

dustinst22

04-01-06, 10:18 PM

^ What he said (bubbawilly)

krasmuzik

04-01-06, 11:16 PM

But that's only relative to other 720p machines, right?? In other words, if I'm currently watching a 4805 at a distance that SDE doesn't bother me, and I put up a IN76 and sit at the same place the increased res is going to make a substantially smoother image won't it??

Correct. Indeed we did that very IN72/IN76 comparison - and that is what everyone thought the IN76 indeed had a better image - much more smooth solid colors - less SDE. Don't confuse comparisons with lowend .55" DC2 and higherend .9" DC2/DC3. The IN76 has the same size chip as the SP4805 - as do all the other 1280x768 machines. People have been taking the audioholics review out of context - the comparisons on SDE were between the SP7210 and IN76 - and one is twice the price of the other.

The SDE will be identical (unless lens are sharper/softer) between Mitsu HC3000, Infocus 76, and Optoma HD72 - they are all member of the new hybrid 1280x768 DC2. IF SDE is a flaw in IN76 - it is an inherent flaw in all of them. TI made a smaller multipurpose chip so that 720P DLP could be a member of the cheaper projector forum. I do not think that idea was necessary flawed...but if it bothers people then they can go back to watching the 720P LCD SDE machines....

JeffKB

04-02-06, 12:31 AM

I'm not referring to the audioholics review. I'm going by Tom's comparison with the MT700, and that is a HD2+ based projector.

Yes I know you were referring to Tom's comparison. Even though my post quoted you, I wasn't directing my comments at you per se, but rather at a growing perception.

Let me try to explain. I mentioned the Audioholics review because that's the only reason people are assuming the increase in SDE is caused by the new 768p chip. The HC3000 was out for almost 4 months before that review, and no one, and I mean no one, mentioned increased SDE or fill factor of the new chip. The Audioholics review comes out and all of a sudden it's an issue, and evidently a uniquely InFocus issue, since I don't see this being discussed on the HC3000 or HD72 thread.

I'm not saying the new chip doesn't cause more SDE. Certainly in the case of the Audioholics review it did, since the 7210 is brighter than the IN76 and has better optics, yet had less SDE. But the 7210 has the DC3 chip which has a greater fill factor than even the MT700's HD2+DC2. Is the new 768p chip, solely in and of itself, a noticeable (repeat noticeable) step back in terms of SDE versus the older HD2+DC2? I don't know. I'm simply trying to make the point that just because someone sees more SDE with the IN76 versus the MT700, it doesn't necessarily mean it's solely the fault of the chip.

Why is it even necessary to make the distinction as to what the cause of the SDE is? After all, if there's more SDE there's more SDE. IMO it's significant because if the chip is the sole reason for that, then that's a pure negative. If, however, the reason the IN76 has more SDE is that it's brighter than the MT700, or has a sharper focus, than obviously there's a tradeoff at work. You gain something, you lose something.

Hope that clarified my point.

Backlash

04-02-06, 12:56 AM

I'm seriously looking at buying this to replace my X1. My only concern is do you still have to hard-off this new PJ? With the X1 when you turn it off with the remote, the fan runs until it cools, and then slows to a very low speed, but it is still running. So after two years of this, I had to have my PJ serviced because the fan started making some weird noises.

It wouldn't be an issue except that my mount tilts when I press the hard power switch so I'm always re-aligning it. Plus it makes my Pronto remote useless, since I have to manually turn the PJ on and off.

Does anyone know about this?

NoThru22

04-02-06, 01:09 AM

Still a "useless" reading.

dB SPL specs are usually specified at 1m - not "literally right in front". SPL diminishes with the square of the distance.

Now if you had taken an SPL reading with the 'old' firmware, changed the firmware and taken another reading with the 'new' firmware, regardless of your technique and so long as it was consistent, you would then 'generally' be able to say the the second setup was X dB louder or quieter than the first.

But that is about it in terms of your ability to use your readings to refer to anything.

Now, was your reading "A" weighted or "C" weighted? Was the projector in an anechoic environment? What was the ambient noise level?

Re: 26dB. Where did you get that from?
26 db was the advertised noise level of the MT700. I never thought of trying to measure it until after I got it back from Tops the first time and suddenly I thought it was much louder. In fact, I only got the SPL meter so I could have something to say when I called Toshiba to bitch about the noise.

NoThru22

04-02-06, 01:14 AM

are the in72 and in76 going to be able to do pixel mapped resolutions with htpcs? 854x480 (or 848, whatever) and then 1280x720 respectively?
If I didn't say it properly in my write-up, it appears I have achieved 1:1 pixel mapping at 1280x720.

And that relates to my contention of more SDE on this projector than the MT700. Maybe it is because it gives a sharper picture, because it does. I would say the increase in sharpness is greater than the increase in SDE. It's not like the MT700 had horrible SDE. I never noticed it unless I went looking. Also, I am sitting at about 1.29X.

Robert Clark

04-02-06, 01:41 AM

ssj2

04-02-06, 09:40 AM

sunol

04-02-06, 10:19 AM

billymac

04-02-06, 11:28 AM

If I didn't say it properly in my write-up, it appears I have achieved 1:1 pixel mapping at 1280x720.

And that relates to my contention of more SDE on this projector than the MT700. Maybe it is because it gives a sharper picture, because it does. I would say the increase in sharpness is greater than the increase in SDE. It's not like the MT700 had horrible SDE. I never noticed it unless I went looking. Also, I am sitting at about 1.29X.

then i guess my question is,why wouldn't they list 1280x720 as an acceptable data compatability?

i wish i could hear from an IN72 owner to make sure it does it as well...i can't believe it wouldn't, but sure would be nice to confirm.

krasmuzik

04-02-06, 01:09 PM

If I didn't say it properly in my write-up, it appears I have achieved 1:1 pixel mapping at 1280x720.

And that relates to my contention of more SDE on this projector than the MT700. Maybe it is because it gives a sharper picture, because it does. I would say the increase in sharpness is greater than the increase in SDE. It's not like the MT700 had horrible SDE. I never noticed it unless I went looking. Also, I am sitting at about 1.29X.

You are confusing SDE effect with pixelization. SDE effect is thickness of lines between the pixels - and not what the pixels are doing themselves. It stands for Screen Door Effect - like looking outside at your deck with the screen door open.

It is absolutely impossible for 1:1 pixel mapping to impact SDE on any projector. The optics and DMD version impacts SDE - nothing else. Not the scaler - not the signal - not the source.

krasmuzik

04-02-06, 01:23 PM

I respectfully disagree that there would be a difference from pre-production to production. The DMD that matters did not change, the optics did not change. Your reviewers opinion is the thing that changed IMHO. I suspect the caution generated on this forum by the review prompted an "update" so as to not damage the sales.

I ordered an IN76 last week anyway because I think it the PJ to beat in this generation of low cost 720p DLP.

K

Optics can indeed change - it is an unbranded OEM part - and indeed it is quite possible for it to change as they go thru the OEM qualification process. i think it is unlikely that the DMD rev changed since it already matured in the other 1280x768 already out.

I observed the same as JS (coarser image - more SDE) at dealer training in FEB - so we both saw preproduction. But again this was with the SP7210 DC3 vs. the IN76 DC2. I can see the same difference with SP7205 DC2 and SP7210 DC3 which has better fill rate. Have not compared a SP7205 vs. IN76 yet - nor a production IN76 vs. SP7210.

So it would not suprise me to see JS temper his review - as this is not a flaw of the projector - but a critical viewers attempt to explain differences at different price points - that gets magnified as a flaw. If the 1280x768 was flawed with respect to SDE - then the Mistu HC3000 and the Optoma HD72 threads would be abuzz about their flawed products, but then it does require a professional with access to multiple projectors for side-by-side to see these differences....I happen to know JS and he lives by his company name IntegrityHT - and he would never change a review to make an adjustment in sales. He has always been honest about pros/cons - but would also prefer that people not misinterpret his remarks.

This is nothing more than sight unseen buyers panicking over the unknown and looking for the slightest flaw to justify their decision process. So if you are comparing to another 1280x768 projector - get over it - it will have similar optics at this price point - as well as the same DMD chip.

If you are comparing to non DarkChip equipped DMD - then you best read this.

http://www.dlp.com/dlp_technology/dlp_technology_feature_article_1.asp

Blacker lines between the chips that have brighter mirrors means more pronounced SDE - a downside if you will of getting higher contrast by capturing stray light at black and using more of your white light.....anyone that upgraded from the SP4800/H30 to SP4805/H31 already noticed this difference two years ago.....

(OOPS - that is the link for the DarkChip1 in SP4800 not DarkChip2 in SP4805 - cannot find the blurbs on DarkChip2 - but it was improved resulting in the described difference - in the same manner that DarkChip3 is even better yet.)

HiHoStevo

04-02-06, 03:08 PM

Blacker lines between the chips that have brighter mirrors means more pronounced SDE - a downside if you will of getting higher contrast by capturing stray light at black and using more of your white light.....anyone that upgraded from the SP4800/H30 to SP4805/H31 already noticed this difference two years ago.....

(OOPS - that is the link for the DarkChip1 in SP4800 not DarkChip2 in SP4805 - cannot find the blurbs on DarkChip2 - but it was improved resulting in the described difference - in the same manner that DarkChip3 is even better yet.)

I remember this discussion quite vividly.........

I saw the H30 when it first was released and then later saw the H31 and the 4805. The newer DC2 H31 and 4805 definitely had a superior image on the screen... however, there was a trade off at least for the H30/31 (as I never reviewed the 4800) in that there was an increase in perceived SDE due as Kevin mentions to the darker lines and brighter mirrors. Very few things in life come without any sort of trade... in this case it was a superior image at the cost of slightly greater SDE. This fact was noted in the H31/4805 threads...., but the vast majority still thought the tradeoff very worthwhile.

I think for the majority of potential owners this will be a non-issue once they see the actual projector. The only ones it really represents an issue for are those like Robert and myself that for whatever quirk of fate are very annoyed by SDE... perhaps we like to big of screen's in too small of theaters (I know I do)... but I really believe this will fade away once folks have a chance to see the projector in person.

Does this mean that that your IN76 (Honda Civic) is going to throw as nice an image an as a IF7210 (Honda Accord) or an IF777 (Lexus)....... nope... you do get what you pay for... but personally I love a Honda Civic.... great mileage, very reliable, backed by an excellent company. This year's Civic is a bunch better than a Civic from a few years ago........, but is it going to de-throne a Lexus.......... ahh No!

krasmuzik

04-02-06, 03:15 PM

HiHoSteveo

Well said! You have to understand that JS of IntegrityHT review methodology is to inform buyers of pros/Cons at higher, lower, and similar price points - thru his personal or public shootouts of side by side comparisons.. An informed buyer is a repeat customer for whenever the DigitalCinema 1K monster chip is finally released into this forum - whenever DigitalCinema 4K is released years from now that is - and all the theaters have upgraded and TI needs to dump the chips on us! :D Actually that will never happen - as that chip is too big requiring huge optics and lamps - we will get the cheaper downsize version - and most likely someone will complain that it has more SDE than the DigitalCinema version....

Now if you want to buy a Honda Civic and drive it like a Lexus? That is your problem if you want to sit so close you can see SDE - as long as you know what you are doing and the compromises you are making.

HVLP

04-02-06, 04:54 PM

BrandonJF

04-02-06, 05:22 PM

Has anyone seen the ceiling mount that ships with the IN76 powerbuy is it the SP-CEIL-010 or the new SP-CEIL-UNIV. The Home Theater Supplies page shows the old SP-CEIL-010 under InFocus Accessories but it is not really clear which one ships with the power buy?

I'm just assuming it's not the SP-CEIL-010, since I'm pretty sure that it's mounting plate isn't compatible with the IN76. Also, if you add the SP-CEIL-010 to your cart, it will display as SP-CEIL-UNIV when your cart pops up.

HVLP

04-02-06, 05:30 PM

Thanks I didnt try adding it to the cart , I was hoping someone who has it already would chime in.

PLB

04-02-06, 05:51 PM

Diminishing Returns
A new Camry sedan today performs better than the legendary gull wing Mercedes 300SL. It corners better, accelerates faster, and has a higher top speed. Furthermore this mainstrean family sedan is more quieter and comfortable than Rolls Royce Silver Cloud of that same vintage. There has been a lot of progress since the mid-fifties.

That progress is over. In fact it has been over for some time now. Cars reached practical perfection a couple decades ago. We still have innovation but we are deep into the diminishing returns area of the curve. As long as we define a car as a surface vehicle that is driven by a human being there can not be much more progress.

The Perfect Projector
We know what a practically perfect home theater front projector would look like. It would be a 1080p 3 chip projector with an LED lamp. This resolution level and technology is approximately that used today on the commercial DLP cinema. There would be no rainbows and virtually no SDE.

Deinterlacing and scaling would be much less important for new material, but even on older material that needed more processing, with the steady improvement of electronics these functions are sure to converge on perfection rapidly. Such a projector would also be quiet because of the LEDs and much cheaper to operate because the lamp wouldn't need to be replaced periodically. It should cost about $500 in today's dollars.

A Home theater front projector can't get much better than this because of the size of rooms in homes and the limitations of the human eye.

I have a simple InFocus X1. The IN76 improves on it in many ways. I will say the ideal or practically perfect projector has a score of 100. What is the price independent score of my X1 and what is the price independent score of the new IN76?

I will give the X1 a scale score of about 90 and the new IN76 a score of about 95. This means that the amount of improvement possible in an IN76 is about the same as the improvement between an X1 and an IN76.

How do I arrive at these estimates? First you need to recognize just what are the benefits of a front projector. As Veblen said, its conspicuous consumption. That is to say it is the kind of article that returns value based on its impact on others.

Projector Value
For we single men that value means means its capacity for impressing women. In my extensive testing with many women my little X1 has never failed to impress. I took a former girl friend last year to a local high end audio visual display room where they had had an InFocus 7210 projecting on a Stewart screen. I asked her if she thought it looked better than my set up at home. She said no.

Before everyone jumps down my throat with lectures on scientific method let me assure you (I used to teach a graduate course in research design) that I realize the limitations of this testimony. But at least a half dozen women this last year have "oohed and ahhed" over my Home Theater. In this crucial respect my system works great. The question is then, would an IN76 impress the ladies more? Since everyone agrees that the IN76 is somewhat inferior to the 7210, and my former girl friend couldn't see much of an X1 vs. 7210 difference, I don't think so.

There is a lively debate now as to whether 3 chip 720p DLPs are better than 1 chip 1080p DLPs for high end Home Theater. Clearly they must be close if it is so controversial. Home Theater 3 chip 720p DLPs cost $30,000 a few years ago. A projector using three of the same 1280 by 768 DLP chips used in the new IN76 should be available at about $10,000 within a year. It should have a street price of under $5,000 a year after that. That machine would be at about 98 on my scale. Meaning that front projectors are soon to be close to practical perfect.

A Thought Experiment
We have a housing boom. There are a lot of new houses going up. Better constructors wire the new homes for IP. Lee's mansion in Arlington Virginia was built with no closets. Today new houses have lots of built ins. My modest home theater is in my den. By day it is a home office at night it is a home theater. All it takes to build in a similar home theater into a new house is a den/bedroom of approximately 12 by 15 feet, some wiring, an equipment closet, a set of light proof drapes, and a set of decent in-wall speakers - say Cambridge Audio Soundworks. In that closet if you had an InFocus IN76, and a mid quality DVD player and receiver you would satisfy the needs of at least 95% of all consumers.

What would people upgrade from such a built-in set up? First would be the DVD player. It would soon be replaced by a Blu-Ray or other HD disc player. Some might install an actual video screen but most would stay with the simple painted white wall. Only a very few would install a motorized masking system. Some would swap out the speakers with better units or add free standing speaker into the room. However a pre-wired built in Dolby 7.1 sound system will be plenty for almost everyone. Many would add different drape covers but very, very few would paint their room black. Some people would replace their built in receiver (say a Denon AVR-486S) for a better model (say a Denon AVR-5805). Most wouldn't because in a relatively small room there would be little difference in sound.

So we come to the IN76. How many would replace it with something better? I suspect almost no one at least for a few years. If everyone in your development has a Home Theater based on Denon electronics, built in speakers and an IN76 projector what will you need to impress your neighbors? Right now everyone likes to come to your house to watch the big game or to see a movie because you have a Home Theater. But when everyone has an IN76 setup will they want to come over just because you have a InFocus 7210? They might want to come over if you had an InFocus 777 or a Sony Ruby but maybe not. Probably more important would be the quality of your sofa or of your recliners.

Today all new homes have built in kitchens. There are certainly differences in refrigerators but no one comes over for lunch because you have upgraded from the standard Kenmore to a Maytag. A top of the line refrigerator can cost ten times as much as an entry level model. People care about wait you keep in your refrigerator not about the box. Content matters above a certain quality level.

Price and Content
The most important feature of the IN76 IMHO is price. I directly benefit from the low price of the IN76 even if I don't buy one.

Currently the highest quality content available to me is Comcast HD cable broadcasts. The best material at 1080i or 720p is clearly better than even 480p DVDs. My projector is only capable of 480p but that doesn't matter very much. The broadcast HD material looks better. My frustration is that most of the OnDemand movies are shown in SD not HD. Some are shown in SD widescreen but most are pan and scan.

On a girl friend's 36" CRT TV the new HBO series Big Love when seen from OnDemand in SD looks great. On my HT system is looks considerably worse. Comcast and HBO could show this and other content in 1080i or 720p but it wouldn't improve the picture for those with even rather large TVs. It would only benefit those of us with truly large screens.

At an initial price of $3,000 the IN76 is still too expensive. Street prices are now or soon will be at $2,000 and should drop to $1,500 by the end of the year. This may be cheap enough to have a big enough installed base to make it worth while for Comcast to allocate the bandwidth for true HD. I want everyone out there to buy an IN76. I expect I will buy one myself when my bulb dies in about a year. But even before then I will benefit in terms of high quality available material if there are more HD consumers.

Alas when everyone has a projector will I still be able to lure women over to my house?