Infocus IN72-IN74-IN76 [Text View] - Page 6

microbiologist

04-03-06, 08:33 PM

pixel mapping just guarantees that the each output pixel is assigned to a display pixel. It is the sharpest image possible - especially when using computer sources. Just try a non-native resolution on your laptop and you will see the fuzzyness and jaggyness that results.

DVDs cannot be pixel mapped since they have an aspect ratio not supported by displays - they must be horizontally scaled. Some DVD players (like Bravo D1 or HTPC) do that scaling rather than the projector doing it - and with an external scaler - just like with your laptop display always best to send out the panel resolution to avoid multiple scalings. DVDs can however be scanline mapped - and 720P works better than 576P or 1080P at that. But to make it work you need a player/display without any overscan.

Thanks for the response. I appreciate some of the technical merits already. I guess the nature of my posting had to due with the real world results. Namely will a brighter higher contrast projector which does scaling yield a better picture than watching a picture in native resolution on a machine that is inferior in other respects? If I understand correctly, the IN76 is a superior machine to the IN 72 wihtout any consideration to resolution. Therefore, would one acheive a better picture watching 480 material on an IN 72 or a 76. Budget in not a concern, I am only pondering which one would have the better picture when viewing conventional 480 material.

Regards to all!

Jeff Deuitch
Palmetto, FL

HD4Life

04-03-06, 09:03 PM

I just spent the weekend installing and setting up my In-76. I was a very early adopter of the SP4805 as my first projector and have loved every moment having it. If any one is on the fence that has a 4805 or something else like it, and is thinking about moving up, by all means, DO IT..! Big difference in brightness, contrast and blacks with shadow detail. Nice PJ all around for the money. Fantastic picture..!!

BrettJB

04-03-06, 09:07 PM

We have been having severe weather here in Virginia Beach and our power has been out so we were actually unaware of the web page problem till a few customers called us - thanks guys!! Things are back to normal now.

You folks are as bad as those in D.C., claiming they can't work because of a little power outage... Come on, we all know the story of Abraham Lincoln doing his homework on the back of shovel, writing with a lump of coal by the light of the fireplace. If old Abe can do without the electricity, then we've got no excuses! ;)

I understand the weather's been pretty nasty in the east, so no worries. I'm just anxious as paypal has already seen fit to relieve me of my money, but I've never received so much as an order confirmation from Home Theater Supplies. You may want to contact the folks who have ordered since last friday to update them on their orders (me first, me first!!!) :D

I do appreciate the candor about the website defacement. I had all sorts of unpleasant scenarios running through my head as to what sort of organizations my money might now be funding... I just want a projector so I never have to go to a theater again, not inadvertantly be responsible for "regime change" in some foreign country. ;)

--Brett

BrettJB

04-03-06, 09:12 PM

And then I'll have to find a mount to hold a third, 1080p, InFocus projector below those!!

You'd better make sure the offsets are all compatible, or you'd better hope for lens shift to be standard on those 1080p projectors... I wish the current round of budget 720p DLP projectors had it

As to whacking your head, just remodel and go with the cathedral ceilings... :p

--Brett

krasmuzik

04-04-06, 01:00 AM

Thanks for the response. I appreciate some of the technical merits already. I guess the nature of my posting had to due with the real world results. Namely will a brighter higher contrast projector which does scaling yield a better picture than watching a picture in native resolution on a machine that is inferior in other respects? If I understand correctly, the IN76 is a superior machine to the IN 72 wihtout any consideration to resolution. Therefore, would one acheive a better picture watching 480 material on an IN 72 or a 76. Budget in not a concern, I am only pondering which one would have the better picture when viewing conventional 480 material.

Regards to all!

Jeff Deuitch
Palmetto, FL

I don't notice picture softening of DVD on 720P - only on 576P - the upscaling does a good job of adding faux smoothing of jagged edges on rounded objects - at our comparison meet - we were looking at Nemo. Also less SDE made for a more filmic picture. Decide based on your wallet and your screen size desires - use 4/3x screenwidth seating for 720P and 2x screenwidth seating for 576P. The IN76 has 50% more marketed contrast than the IN72 - so they have diffs other than resolution.

HD4Life

04-04-06, 09:26 AM

Jeff Deuitch

Definitely yes..!! The picture quality of standard 480p dvd material will be better with the 76. I could do a head to head with my 4805 and saw a very marked improvement between the two.

Backlash

04-04-06, 11:29 AM

You folks are as bad as those in D.C., claiming they can't work because of a little power outage... Come on, we all know the story of Abraham Lincoln doing his homework on the back of shovel, writing with a lump of coal by the light of the fireplace. If old Abe can do without the electricity, then we've got no excuses!
--Brett

Brett, one thing you're forgetting is that Abe wasn't worried about 1:1 pixel-mapping. Although without electricity I can almost guarantee that his black levels were better.
:-p

BrettJB

04-04-06, 11:32 AM

Although without electricity I can almost guarantee that his black levels were better.
:-p

But he was sacrificing contrast and lumens for those black levels... :rolleyes:

NoThru22

04-04-06, 12:35 PM

That's funny, when no electricity is going to my projector, my screen is entirely white. :P

Backlash

04-04-06, 12:38 PM

touche!

geocab

04-04-06, 04:16 PM

That's funny, when no electricity is going to my projector, my screen is entirely white. :P

touche!

:D Nice. :D

HVLP

04-04-06, 08:58 PM

I'm just assuming it's not the SP-CEIL-010, since I'm pretty sure that it's mounting plate isn't compatible with the IN76. Also, if you add the SP-CEIL-010 to your cart, it will display as SP-CEIL-UNIV when your cart pops up.

Spoke with HTS today the Ceiling mount is not SP-CEIL-010 or SP-CEIL-Univ because it is not an Infocus mount. All he could say was it is a very nice all metal mount but not a mount made by Infocus. :rolleyes:

BrettJB

04-04-06, 09:14 PM

That's funny, when no electricity is going to my projector, my screen is entirely white. :P

Lincoln would only settle for a theater room with total light control! Well, once he extinguished the fire, at least.

And I promise I'll stop drifting off topic, just as soon as HTS gets it in gear and tells me when I might see my IN76! My conversation with them was less than inspiring today. :rolleyes:

We're all big kids (some more than others!) We can handle the bad news. Just let us know how long the delay will be...

--Brett

BrandonJF

04-04-06, 09:39 PM

Spoke with HTS today the Ceiling mount is not SP-CEIL-010 or SP-CEIL-Univ because it is not an Infocus mount. All he could say was it is a very nice all metal mount but not a mount made by Infocus.

Wonderful. I guess I should've confirmed it instead of going by the description given when you add the separate mount to your cart. And I already ordered the extension from Infocus. <sigh> Without any idea what this mount is, I have no idea if I can even use it. Given the low offset, I'd have to move my screen near the top of the wall if it's a flush mount, which I don't want to do.

And I promise I'll stop drifting off topic, just as soon as HTS gets it in gear and tells me when I might see my IN76! My conversation with them was less than inspiring today.

Yeah, I still don't have a great feeling about this. I blame myself for not directly questioning the mount (there are cheapo homemade mounts to be had elsewhere, too), but in the power buy post, they did mention that if we ordered before 3pm it would ship out same day. The fact that some of us have yet to even receive a confirmation of our order isn't good. When I spoke with David on the phone yesterday, he told me I'd receive my tracking info shortly. I wasn't sure how that would happen without power, but... (no tracking info yet, either)

I've been through a similar situation as this with an HT supplier that sold through their own site and Ebay. It didn't end well. That situation may be making me more nervous than I should be, but this is just so similar...

We're all big kids (some more than others!) We can handle the bad news. Just let us know how long the delay will be...

We all shouldn't wait too long since this isn't a case where the retailer charges your card at the time of shipping. Our $2500 currently is not in our pockets, which is what makes the lack of communication/website hacking/delayed shipping a little less easier to stomach. If I don't hear something by tomorrow, I'll probably inquire about a refund.

crussader

04-04-06, 10:37 PM

Speaking of mounts, think something like the following will work for my IN72:

http://www.mountcenter.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=PERPRSUNVP

mbot75

04-04-06, 10:41 PM

We all shouldn't wait too long since this isn't a case where the retailer charges your card at the time of shipping. Our $2500 currently is not in our pockets, which is what makes the lack of communication/website hacking/delayed shipping a little less easier to stomach. If I don't hear something by tomorrow, I'll probably inquire about a refund.

Saying that they were going to ship the same day and then not shipping over a week later is a little ridiculous. This mount business is also bad news. I may have to buy another now and I wont know until I get what they send and they dont know when that will be....

HVLP

04-04-06, 11:08 PM

Did anyone get a PJ from the power buy yet?

geocab

04-04-06, 11:46 PM

Can we buy the IN76 directly from AVS, or do they always go through someone else? Or do they only team up for Power Buys?

sunol

04-05-06, 12:11 AM

Hey - when is someone going to start posting some tweaks! I am totally underqualified to do it, but love to compare what other people post! ;)
I messed with my Oppo/IN76 combo and an Avia disk and all I could do was up the contrast from 50 to 55. Don't tell me Bob Williams got it that close to begin with! :p

Mike

cavu

04-05-06, 01:13 AM

I have discussed it with some members in PMs but may have not have mentioned in this thread that I brokered the deal between AVS and Home Theater Supplies.

The response surprised David (HTS) and overwhelmed them somewhat. Normally they deal one-to-one, face-to-face with their customers. The distributor ran out of inventory last Thursday and David has been told that the remaining orders can be shipped (probably) tomorrow.

I don't know if my reputation on the board carries any weight but I can assure you that you need not be anxious. I have spoken to him several times in the last few days and David is prepared to refund anyone instantly if they are uncomfortable with the short delay. He'd rather lose the sale than upset anyone!

Now ... on to my rant ... David is too humble to do this himself!

When I learned that David was an InFocus dealer, I convinced him to do this "Power Buy Offer" both as a service to AVS members but also to create a broader exposure for his modest dealership.

He deals mostly in local "turnkey" theater installations and specializes in high quality specialty theater seating. I assured him that making this offer to AVS members would not interfere greatly with his day-to-day business and that the members here were generally well-informed and would not be a heavy draw on his technical support person. The margin he is making is very small - you know the prices. I told him the payoff would be developing a larger, satisfied customer base who might purchase some of his other products (Marketing 101).

But this has not turned out quite as I thought.

The initial "Power Buy" offer was a private email made to paid-up AVS Club Members - a few thousand people - not to the entire user base. Orders started to come in even before David or I had even received our copies of the offer email from Alan at AVS. And the warehouse was emptied by Thursday. But that hasn't been the real problem.

It seems that a number of the "AVS Club members" are also InFocus dealers. And some of those dealers got their shorts tied in a knot over the pricing offered to the the AVS Club Members.

I understand that a group of these guys got together and complained to InFocus and have been working REALLY hard to get David's InFocus dealership terminated.

David has now spent every waking moment since last Friday trying to get the inventory released from the warehouse. He now knows the first names and extension numbers of all of the InFocus management, regional reps and distributors. His newest best friend is a $500/hr lawyer who is making sure that the product gets delivered - tomorrow!

But David has also created a backup plan: if all else fails, he is prepared to subsidize another dealer to ship your orders for the prices paid. Nothing is more important to him than your satisfaction and his own reputation. You will get exactly what you bought for the price quoted or you will get your money back with an apology - your choice.

Depending on how things roll out in the next day or so, David may not be an InFocus dealer any longer. I, through introducing this idea to him in the first place, and those Infocus dealers (you know who you are) will have just about ruined David. So when you get your projector - send David a note saying "Thank you". He hasn't had a good week.

As Alan Gouger of AVS says (and I apologize in advance for quoting you Alan), "I hate to see these dealers spoiling it for everyone else when they complain and try to get these things closed down."

Any of you who know me are aware that I have been one of the biggest InFocus cheerleaders on AVS! But I have to say, if InFocus **** David over this deal, my support will change in a New York minute.

Bob W, if you're listening, you might remind your management that a satisfied customer tells 5 people - an unhappy customer tells 30 people. And on AVS and forums like this, that can be about 30 per minute.

[Rant mode OFF]

HVLP

04-05-06, 01:19 AM

I posted a great found deal in the club members section before my PJ was shipped.
And when the word got out about the price well to make a long story short after waiting for days for it to show up at the dealer his supply was cut off. I did not get my PJ but got my money back. Waiting for my Credit Card to be refunded kept me from going for the power buy.

BrettJB

04-05-06, 02:01 AM

cavu,

Thanks for the back story. Your reputation is such, with me at least, that I have the confidence to ride this one out and work with HTS. As I said, I'm a big kid and can handle a short delay (yeah, it stinks that Paypal works it the way that they do, but not a whole lot we can do there... that's the price you pay for going with a Paypal partnered vendor)

My anxiety arose from not knowing the story behind the delay. Even when I spoke to David on the phone, he wasn't exactly forthcoming-- just told me they were working on it today. Not rude, but you could tell he was getting bothered by the whole thing. I now understand why.

An abbreviated version of your rant would have gone a long way to reassuring me, but perhaps I'm just being overly sensitive about the whole thing... :o Perhaps since the legal guns have been flashed, David didn't want to get into potential accusations of libel. I understand (been there, done that!)

David, hopefully you will survive the ordeal and will see some tangible benefits to your business. I know I enquired about pricing on a seating configuration in one of my emails, so cavu's marketing conclusion was indeed correct for at least one of us!

Thanks again for the reassurance, cavu.

--Brett

Jonathan Teller

04-05-06, 03:11 AM

Well isn't that just super? The one guy who actually CARES about his customers more than his own pocket and is willing to take a big hit on profits in order to gain customer loyalty and support is the one who get punished rather than the ones who ONLY care about their own pocket and would rather lose potential customers than make a smaller profit!

Free market my backside! :mad:

I think we know the solution to this! Dealers and retailers should either not be allowed in the AVS Club or else they should not be informed of Power Buy pricing! If they are dealers or retailers, then they have their own suppliers and connections and shouldn't be in need of special pricing that is intended for consumers and individuals.

To me, the whole point of a Power Buy is to give consumers some extra buying power by purchasing in large volume. It's just like a wholesaler buying direct from the manufacturer - the larger the order, the larger the price break! These deals are not advertised all over the net. The price is never mentioned to anyone other than those directly enquiring about a purchase through the Power Buy, and this board is very strict about not letting anyone post the discounted price. ALL of it is so that an authorized dealer can offer a price below MAP without breaking the MAP rules! The price is not "advertised", therefore, it doesn't circumvent the "minimum advertised price"!

The dealers who complained are the ones who should lose their Infocus authorized status. They should also lose their customers and their business since the only way they can compete with a decent person is to bully him and try to shut him down!

Now, since I'm not a "special" forum member or part of the elite around here, I'm sure my rant will be removed. But honestly, this kind of crap among retailers is the reason "salesperson" is a dirty word!

:mad:

Jon

Jed M

04-05-06, 03:34 AM

Wow, I feel bad for David. I guess its true, no good deed goes unpunished. :(

Thanks for clearing things up Cavu, that really helps. I was starting to get a little mad. I have been an Infocus supporter since the X1 but if they screw David over for this one time thing, I will take it personally. I sure hope it doesn't come to that. I have always recommended and enjoyed Infocus products, and David is a very nice and knowledgable guy to deal with and IMO a credit to Infocus, so I just hope this can be worked out.

DigVid

04-05-06, 07:26 AM

Well isn't that just super?...But honestly, this kind of crap among retailers is the reason "salesperson" is a dirty word!

Well said Jon and I agree with your thoughts 100%!

Now I won't have to rant. Thank you!!! ;)

BTW, I am also not a paid AVS Cub Member (at least not yet). However, I feel the only way that the AVS Power Buy could legitimately be used is for "members only". If others were taking part in the deep discounts of this projector offer, then IMHO InFocus retailers do have legit complaint against AVS; however, not with HTS. I mean if I try to buy something from a place like Costco I must be a member. So, my agreeing with the above rant assumes all who got their projectors at a discount were paid AVS Club Members.

- Howard

mbot75

04-05-06, 07:53 AM

Thank you Cavu once again for the update and excellent post.

After reading it, Home Theater Supplies has risen above many of its competitors when it comes to companies I will consider purchasing future products from.

It also makes me wonder how random that hack to their website was. It was the only real reason I had to cast doubt on this whole deal but the truth has set me free.

I wish the best of luck to Home Theater Supplies.
Now please just ship my IN 76 because I'm really looking forward to it. :D

entropy

04-05-06, 08:04 AM

Dealers and retailers should either not be allowed in the AVS Club or else they should not be informed of Power Buy pricing!
[...]
The dealers who complained are the ones who should lose their Infocus authorized status. They should also lose their customers and their business since the only way they can compete with a decent person is to bully him and try to shut him down!

Posting the names of the complaining dealers in this thread would go a long way towards leveling the playing field.

~ Kiran <entropy@io.com>

NoThru22

04-05-06, 08:29 AM

Can we buy the IN76 directly from AVS, or do they always go through someone else? Or do they only team up for Power Buys?
I bought mine through Jason of AVS, which I recommend if you don't need that free mount (or maybe even if you do.)
The response surprised David (HTS) and overwhelmed them somewhat. Normally they deal one-to-one, face-to-face with their customers. The distributor ran out of inventory last Thursday and David has been told that the remaining orders can be shipped (probably) tomorrow.
Then why are forum members in the dark? So many nervous people? There should be communication and apologies if people believed they'd be getting it the next day.
I don't know if my reputation on the board carries any weight
Yes, you have quite the reputation. Your signature insults a large number of the people on this board, calling them poor and stupid, even though you don't own a high definition display. Looks like sour grapes to me.

agro1

04-05-06, 12:43 PM

I think we know the solution to this! Dealers and retailers should either not be allowed in the AVS Club or else they should not be informed of Power Buy pricing! If they are dealers or retailers, then they have their own suppliers and connections and shouldn't be in need of special pricing that is intended for consumers and individuals.
Jon

Why not take it a step further ?? If the rest of these "dealers" who happen to be AVS Club Members are pissed....then why not give them the opportunity to COMPETE ?? That is what free market is all about.
If they don't like the price point David/HTS has set for the power buy, then tell them to either STFU or MATCH IT. Better yet, BEAT IT.
If an IF dealer is bent outta shape because David is taking potential customers due to his aggressive pricing, then they should do the same if they want the business.
To all you whiny dealers out there making this guys life miserable simply because he choose to give Club Members a good deal; you should be ashamed of yourselves. In an open market, the person with the best price gets the sale, simple as that. So now we have a bunch jilted dealers who are pissed that they 1) didn't get the sale, and 2) will now have to adjust their prices accordingly.
What a bunch of whiny little punks...you should be ashamed of yourselves running to big brother crying and trying to strip some decent guy of his livelihood.
Karma is a bitch.

bubbawilly

04-05-06, 01:12 PM

It seems that a number of the "AVS Club members" are also InFocus dealers. And some of those dealers got their shorts tied in a knot over the pricing offered to the the AVS Club Members.

It's pretty easy to guess who they are. Just go back and review this or any other InFocus thread.

Now, every time I see them post I'll be reminded of an old barnyard expression that starts with "chicken" and ends with "it."

Bravo to AVS for putting this thing together to begin with!

Backlash

04-05-06, 01:18 PM

I think the point is that they can't adjust their [advertised] prices accordingly. What I find funny is that hitting the links of all Infocus' online dealers would reveal that while they advertise the Minimum price as set forth by the high mucky-mucks, adding it to the cart usually drops $700 from the price. So why are they pissed about this Power Buy?

I'm personally pissed at InFocus. Thier Minimum Pricing is what creats this whole mess. Unless I'm mistaken, all dealers have to pay the same per unit to InFocus. They then sell the unit to us. If they sell it for less than MSRP, they take a hit in profits, but attempt to gain something in quantity. So InFocus' Minimum Advertised Price is either just for show, since Add To Cart reveals something else entirely, or they just haven't gotten around to punishing these dealers, and the whole point of the pricing is to force their products to cost a certain amount.

Why? If I can have the IN76 for less than a competing model, InFocus just made some money. If they're going to insists that competing models cost the same, they stand a good chance of losing the sale especially if they're going to invalidate my warranty for trying to save a few bucks. If this blows up though, I'm be through with them as well. My X1 is long in the tooth and I was looking at the IN76, but if they're going to become the next Arai (motorcycle reference, I don't have any good analogies for HT) then I'm finished with them. I hate stuffy boutique-styled sales.

DigVid

04-05-06, 02:19 PM

BrandonJF

04-05-06, 02:38 PM

I did see an online retailer selling the IN76 even cheaper than the HTS power buy - they stopped pretty quickly. I'm not even sure if they were an authorized dealer or not, but it was interesting how quickly the price jumped back up to MSRP.

Backlash

04-05-06, 02:54 PM

I'm not going to ruin this for anyone who is actually willing to do the legwork, plus I'm not a Club member so I can't post in the found deals section, nor can I post websites suggested to buy from under the AVS T&C statement.

All I'll say is that they're out there, and that it only took me about 30 minutes to find. The one I still have bookmarked in the hopes that my S.O. goes for it shows $550 off MSRP. Just checked. Still there. Unfortunately they're charging $450 more than they were a couple months back.

BrandonJF

04-05-06, 03:13 PM

You just have to be careful with some of those sites. There's a certain site that pops up pretty quickly offerring the IN76 for a pretty low price. It didn't take me long to do a search on the site to figure out there's a decent chance you'll be giving them the money and not getting a projector.

microbiologist

04-05-06, 04:15 PM

It's pretty easy to guess who they are. Just go back and review this or any other InFocus thread.

Now, every time I see them post I'll be reminded of an old barnyard expression that starts with "chicken" and ends with "it."

Bravo to AVS for putting this thing together to begin with!

Your point is well taken as are all the viewpoints.

What I do not understand is why dealers would raise such a stink with Infocus. Anyone who goes to the extent to be a forum member is going to be the kind of person who learns things in great detail and will very possibly be a DIYer when it comes to installation, setup, calibration etc. These same people are also the ones who do great research to get the best pricing which usually means Ebay/mail order/preowned/Web sales. I would not expect these people to buy at full retail from a full service dealer. I do value the services of a good retailer who typically provides greater service.

I am not a lawyer and am not 100% sure, but I believe that efforts at price fixing are anti competitive and illegal. A manufacturer cannot demand that retailers sell products at the full retail price. Any lawyers please comment.

Discounting is nothing new in electronics and is the standard in computers. There has always been a contrast (or conflict as it may be) between mail order discounters, and local store front retailers. Any retailers who subscribe to forums or other internet sources don't have a legitimate argument that internet/mail order sales are harming them. Non the less, they have a right to complain. Also, those consumers who wish to buy products at the best price absolutely have the right to test the competitive process and buy at the right price. They also have the right to voice their concerns to Infocus just as the retailers have voiced their concerns to the manufacturer. Let the market decide.

I would hope that Infocus would factor in the effects to their reputation resulting from penalizing discount sellers. Word of mouth is obviously spreading quickly. I hope the dealers who have complained to IF about the Powerbuys would consider the same. I also hope these same dealers to not use Ebay, or other discount selling outlets to sell trade ins, demo units, poor sellers, and other items. This would indeed be a giant hypocracy if they do. I hope all facts have been accurately represented regarding this incident, it does seem disturbing.

Powerbuys are a service which benefit a select group of enthusiasts who are likely not going to purchase at higher prices anyhow. I don't see how these offers would affect the dealer's core business to begin with. They should consider the consequences of their actions and I hope IF does the same. Competition is backbone of our economic system.

mbot75

04-05-06, 04:17 PM

Has anyone heard whether or not Home Theater Supplies would be shipping today?

I also had a question about keystone correction. This will be my second projector (First was a AE700). Lens shift made placing my first model easy but this one will need to be ceiling mounted. My basement only has 7' drywall ceiling and there is a drywall covered duct 2 feet above and in front of my screen. I'll have to play with it once it arrives.. if it arrives... but I wanted to know how much keystone correction can affect the image quality if only used slightly.

Tilting it upward slightly may help me get around the duct without worrying about lowering the screen much but I'd rather not sacrifice image quality. Any help or comments would be appreciated.

geocab

04-05-06, 04:36 PM

microbiologist

04-05-06, 05:06 PM

I'll never be able to own my own business as I don't have that "killer" instinct. I'd like to think that there is enough room for everyone. I'm sure these other retailers could've teamed with AVS for a Power Buy just as well as HTS. HTS beat them to it. Now, either they're sore losers, or they might have a legitamate complaint that I don't know about as I am not a business owner. But, from first impressions, these guys are only out for themselves, period. Something I don't have the heart to do.

What a shame.

Actually you are more enlightened than many business owners. I own two businesses and "killer Instinct" is not on my radar. "Competitive Instinct" is the real issue and is an issue I have to tackle every day. You sell yourself short and you would probably make a good business person. I recommend entrepreneurship and hope you give it a try.

The complaining dealers are the ones who do not get it. Their actions precipitate malice and ill will amongst REAL customers. If they do not wish to compete, that is their will. However, they should not lambaste those who wish to be part of the process.

Additionally, those dealers who object to Powerbuys, and have such strong opinions, should also be bold enough to identify themselves and their opinions so as to clarify their point of view. To not do so, displays the very trait that makes them undesirable to want to do business with.

No Geocab, you are on the right track. It is those dealers who have complained, that are not. They do the forum members a disservice yet still wish to participate in the forum! In my opinion, that is circular thinking.

If they are concerned about the forum, then they should identify themselves and vent their position. They may have a valid point, but until they explain themselves, they will elicit the ill will of those they elect to harm.

Nuff said

cavu

04-05-06, 05:10 PM

Has anyone heard whether or not Home Theater Supplies would be shipping today?I understand that InFocus told David's lawyer that they were going to have an internal meeting this afternoon and would advise.

David made arrangements earlier today for another (unnamed but) authorized dealer to fulfill the outstanding orders if InFocus doesn't release his orders.

The lawyer points out that, for a public company, InFocus is not handling this as quickly or correctly as they should.

We know that InFocus has received a NASDAQ Delisting Notification (http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060323005172&newsLang=en) for not filing financials with the SEC on time due to a major audit after significant irregularities were discovered in their bookkeeping.

I have to wonder what is going on inside InFocus at the moment and how much attention they are paying to their customers!!??

Jed M

04-05-06, 05:43 PM

The longer I wait for my projector, the more upset at Infocus I get.

Whats sad about this whole thing is Infocus is turning away its most loyal customers. The very people who are fanatical enough to buy an Infocus projector in the first week of its release, and for the majority, probably to replace their old Infocus projector. It is also probably safe to assume these loyal customers have recommended/sold Infocus to family, friends and co-workers in the past. Considering all forum members, not just club members, who have continued to sell projectors for them by participating in thousands of pages of discussion promoting their projectors and company, I would hope they would hold us in a little higher regard than the average J6P.

If what cavu said is indeed true, its a shame to be treated so poorly by Infocus. Like the rest of you, I will just wait to find out what happens, but I hope Infocus does consider the value of extremely loyal fans when making their final decision.

bthorn9435

04-05-06, 05:44 PM

HD72 sounds mighty nice about right now. Sorry I had to go there but It needed to be said.

Paul_Seng

04-05-06, 06:00 PM

Just wanted to tell you guys, I am not one of those that complained. I have been busy the last few weeks and didn't even know about the powerbuy. I hope David gets through this as I can attest that sometimes its a PITA when your customers are screaming and there's nothing you can do about it, but you are the only face they see and talk to.

BrandonJF

04-05-06, 06:15 PM

when your customers are screaming and there's nothing you can do about it, but you are the only face they see and talk to.

Kinda. There just isn't alot of "seeing" or "talking" going on. The main issue I am having is the total lack of communication. I understand the legal issues and unexpected number of orders has got to have them in turmoil.

At the same time, I think that's also a problem most businesses would kill to have. Low margin or not, what a huge opportunity to gain a customer base!

I will say I'm disappointed that if it weren't for this thread and info posted by cavu and others, I wouldn't know anything. There has been no confirmation of my order and no e-mail explaining that the promises made in the powerbuy post could not be met. Good communication may help cut down on some of the "screaming" customers.

Plus, if HTS knew they had problems last Thursday, I cannot understand why David told me on Monday that he'd have my tracking info shortly. Unless we just have different interpretations of "shortly" and his means "a few days". After I hung up (and saying that did get me off the phone pretty quick!), I was still left with the perception that I'd be getting a shipping confirmation that day when it sounds like he knew there were no projectors to ship?

I don't know. I'm not in his shoes, but that's how things are looking from mine.

bubbawilly

04-05-06, 06:21 PM

Thanks Paul.

Now we know who it wasn't, so you can figure out who it was based on the process of elimination. Too bad AVS can't give them the boot. Their businesses have benefitted from their participation here on AVS, yet they didn't hesitate to stab the forum owners in the back the first time something didn't go their way. That's {insert barnyard analogy having to do with poultry}!!

The IN76 is still on my radar, but InFocus' handling of this situation can change that in a heartbeat.

danmetcalf

04-05-06, 06:26 PM

Kinda. There just isn't alot of "seeing" or "talking" going on. The main issue I am having is the total lack of communication. I understand the legal issues and unexpected number of orders has got to have them in turmoil.

At the same time, I think that's also a problem most businesses would kill to have. Low margin or not, what a huge opportunity to gain a customer base!

I will say I'm disappointed that if it weren't for this thread and info posted by cavu and others, I wouldn't know anything. There has been no confirmation of my order and no e-mail explaining that the promises made in the powerbuy post could not be met. Good communication may help cut down on some of the "screaming" customers.

Plus, if HTS knew they had problems last Thursday, I cannot understand why David told me on Monday that he'd have my tracking info shortly. Unless we just have different interpretations of "shortly" and his means "a few days". After I hung up (and saying that did get me off the phone pretty quick!), I was still left with the perception that I'd be getting a shipping confirmation that day when it sounds like he knew there were no projectors to ship?

I don't know. I'm not in his shoes, but that's how things are looking from mine.

I feel your angst, I'm waiting for an IN76 also, and yet I'm not really upset with David. I've talked to him a few times on the phone and I get the impression that he's doing all he can and it really is out of his hands. I think we'll get a projector one way or the other, but what I want almost as badly is the list of member/dealers who decided to drag us all through the mud with their infantile tactics.

Mupi

04-05-06, 06:27 PM

These deals are not advertised all over the net. The price is never mentioned to anyone other than those directly enquiring about a purchase through the Power Buy, and this board is very strict about not letting anyone post the discounted price.

not really. if you search for HTS in google you get the email or
post by Alan along with the price!

danmetcalf

04-05-06, 06:30 PM

not really. if you search for HTS in google you get the email or
post by Alan along with the price!

But you still have to be a club member to get the deal, at least I assume since the order box asks for your AVS screen-name.

Paul_Seng

04-05-06, 06:34 PM

Kinda. There just isn't alot of "seeing" or "talking" going on. The main issue I am having is the total lack of communication. I understand the legal issues and unexpected number of orders has got to have them in turmoil.

At the same time, I think that's also a problem most businesses would kill to have. Low margin or not, what a huge opportunity to gain a customer base!

I will say I'm disappointed that if it weren't for this thread and info posted by cavu and others, I wouldn't know anything. There has been no confirmation of my order and no e-mail explaining that the promises made in the powerbuy post could not be met. Good communication may help cut down on some of the "screaming" customers.

Plus, if HTS knew they had problems last Thursday, I cannot understand why David told me on Monday that he'd have my tracking info shortly. Unless we just have different interpretations of "shortly" and his means "a few days". After I hung up (and saying that did get me off the phone pretty quick!), I was still left with the perception that I'd be getting a shipping confirmation that day when it sounds like he knew there were no projectors to ship?

I don't know. I'm not in his shoes, but that's how things are looking from mine.
In defense of David, that is what I am talking about. He may have been told by his distributer or Infocus (It depends on his volume) that they will have a shipment in and if it is dropped ship to your house they will email him the tracking numbers. It really is out of his hands and he might also be given the runaround about when the PJ's get shipped. And that's what I mean by him being the end contact to the customer.

gkanders

04-05-06, 06:45 PM

Hey Cavu (or better yet, David), let us know how it comes out with InFocus. I'm not in on the powerbuy, but if they drop David, I'll permanently drop InFocus from my potential buy list. There are too many options out there in this category to support them if they drop David. Maybe I'll have to look and see what other brands HTS carries...

bub

04-05-06, 06:48 PM

Does this also affect those who purchased directly through AVS, or only those who purchased through the Power Buy?

George -bub

BrettJB

04-05-06, 06:56 PM

bub, you should be fine. HTS is not affiliated with AVS-- AVS is just hosting the forum thorugh with HTS offered a powerbuy. Unless someone know something different (Alan?), HTS is the only one getting stonewalled by OutOfFocus

--Brett

BrandonJF

04-05-06, 06:59 PM

He may have been told by his distributer or Infocus (It depends on his volume) that they will have a shipment in and if it is dropped ship to your house they will email him the tracking numbers.

Ah - that makes alot of sense to me.

Hey Cavu (or better yet, David),

This thread is on it's way to becoming a tv movie. :)

cavu

04-05-06, 07:23 PM

I will say I'm disappointed that if it weren't for this thread and info posted by cavu and others, I wouldn't know anything.David did post a response about the web-site being hacked. He is also aware of the fact that I posted a response here (for which he thanked me) and am monitoring this thread for him.

There has been no confirmation of my orderThe confirmation of order was emailed to you immediately and directly by PayPal (as the order processor for HTS). That's what I got.no e-mail explaining that the promises made in the powerbuy post could not be met. Good communication may help cut down on some of the "screaming" customers."Screaming customers" is not a comment made by HTS - so please don't attribute that to David. It was a comment made by another poster.

David believes that he has spoken directly on the telephone to every customer with an outstanding order so an email hasn't been necessary to date.

But I also know that he has prepared an email to go to everyone immediately that InFocus advise their decision; it will either indicate that the orders are going out from the warehouse and tracking numbers would follow, or that the order will be filled by another dealer and providing those details.

Personal Observation: If this deal does go south on David, between the AVS fee, the legal bills and the costs of subsidizing the orders with another dealer will definitely extinguish any money made on completed sales and HTS will lose money on this entire exercise in addition to forfeiting the InFocus dealership. While I really, really want an IN76, if it goes that way I will buy a Mitsi 3000 from David instead.

cavu

04-05-06, 07:33 PM

if you search for HTS in google you get the email or post by Alan along with the price!Interesting! What that search appears to retrieve is actually the Public AVS Power Buy Offer (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=663653) - not the Private AVS Club Member offer. The pricing is different. There is an advantage to membership!

I didn't think that Google could scan the private forums and it didn't. ;)

BrandonJF

04-05-06, 07:33 PM

The confirmation of order was emailed to you immediately and directly by PayPal (as the order processor for HTS). That's what I got.

Yeah, I just got off the phone with David and that's fair. I did get the PayPal confirmation, so saying I didn't receive one wasn't exactly correct. I was kinda ignoring the Paypal part and was thinking I'd get something directly from HTS. But, it is fair to say I did get a PayPal confirmation.

If this deal does go south on David, between the AVS fee, the legal bills and the costs of subsidizing the orders with another dealer will definitely extinguish any money made on completed sales and HTS will lose money on this entire exercise in addition to forfeiting the InFocus dealership.

The whole InFocus deal is just insane. It's just crazy that other dealers can cry about competition and InFocus just dumps on the guy competing to shut everyone else up.

I definitely appreciate David's call to me and personal explanation. I'll just wait to hear what InFocus decides. Hopefully, they'll come to their senses.

mbot75

04-05-06, 08:03 PM

All this confusion is making me consider the Samsung H710AE.
Lens shift is looking very tempting and Infocus is losing my respect quickly.

Lmuller1

04-05-06, 08:28 PM

Silence speaks volumes....at least one side appears to be forthcoming. Come forth and reveal thyself. What one does when one thinks noone sees defines oneself.

If I can't do something for someone else without receiving anything in return what is my worth.....

agro1

04-05-06, 09:22 PM

I think the point is that they can't adjust their [advertised] prices accordingly.

Indeed...so that means they're just pissed they didn't get to structure and provide the units for the power buy.

Don't blame InFocus guys...sure they could handle this better, but it really seems like they have their hands full internally. I'm sure when they step back and all the details of the situation are laid out, David will be fine and the whiny dealers on here will be right where they are now, hiding like a bunch of cowards in the shadows.

Hey, I'm not even a member, nor did I get to participate in the power buy. But this place is great and you can bet your ass when I'm ready to throw down $3k for a PJ, I'll give David a call because it's the right thing to do.
I suggest everyone else do the same. That'll go a long way to prove to the vindictive dealers on here exactly what we think of their actions and cowardice.

Jim McC

04-05-06, 09:27 PM

All those whining babies need to have their butts spanked.

Dan Hitchman

04-05-06, 09:32 PM

I'm following all this and just shaking my head in dismay. I really can't believe Infocus would deal with this situation this way... or fellow AVS members (dealers or not) would act as they seemingly have.

I too would be hard pressed to consider an Infocus projector if they can't figure out the right thing to do. I still can't reconsile that the IN76 is so much more expensive than the very similar Optoma or Mitsubishi. If Infocus can't lower the allowable street price to compete then do they even want to stay in business?

MAP, authorized dealerships, "we won't honor the warrantee even though we got our money for the product anyway," and other horsesh-t like it that companies are now allowed to get away with has really put me off. I haven't been to one physical store yet that has given me information or service that would warrant their prices (almost or full retail, and you feel like you have to go through the ringer just to have them lop off 10% of MSRP!). That doesn't mean that there aren't superb shops out there, it's just that it's hard (and getting harder) to find deserving stores to do business with.

Infocus is quickly becoming "one of those companies" if all of this is true, and they don't come through in the end (they should know about PowerBuys by now anyway!). And if we find out which dealers acted like a pack of rabid dogs on the scent of blood, then I suggest no one do business with them.

RM_P

04-05-06, 09:34 PM

Infocus recalls LP120:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/news_story_894.htm

Wonder if there might be some issues with IN72/74/76 series also? Can Bob please comment?

dmcdayton

04-05-06, 09:38 PM

Anyone have any comments about the projector? How do they like it compared to pj xxx? How noticeable are the extra pixels? Do you even notice them if on black or velvet?

Anything to get off this dealer flame war.

Alimentall

04-05-06, 09:41 PM

Bob Williams

04-05-06, 10:31 PM

Infocus recalls LP120:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/news_story_894.htm

Wonder if there might be some issues with IN72/74/76 series also? Can Bob please comment?

The IN72, IN74, and IN76 are not affected by this issue.

Mupi

04-05-06, 10:41 PM

But you still have to be a club member to get the deal, at least I assume since the order box asks for your AVS screen-name.
but are they going to check if I am a club member or not. they would need
access to AVS data base for that.

Typezer0

04-05-06, 10:44 PM

A local store sells Infocus and has a bunch of models including all the IN series. He said the picture was really sweet. Both the 72 and 74 is set up at 13' on a 92" Da-Lite. The 76 is around 15-17' on a 120" Da-Lite. It's not yet confirmed but he said the projector calculator on Infocus's website might be over-estimated. I'm just curious if the 74 will produce the 126" diagonal I want without looking like poo!...:rolleyes:

So we'll see. I should have mine in one week next Wed. The offset looks descent as I have a very low ceiling. I had to totally rule out the HD72 and The HC3000U.

If and when I get it I'll post a review.

Mupi

04-05-06, 10:48 PM

Interesting! What that search appears to retrieve is actually the Public AVS Power Buy Offer (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=663653) - not the Private AVS Club Member offer. The pricing is different. There is an advantage to membership!

I didn't think that Google could scan the private forums and it didn't. ;)

actually they have covered up the price now. Until last night I could see the lower price the club members were getting. Now it shows a slightly higher price. but the
difference isnt much.

Jed M

04-05-06, 10:50 PM

I can't see how a powerbuy wouldn't benefit the other dealers in the long run. Since the powerbuy is for a very limited time, a quick flood of IN76 and IN72's to the market would get the word spread even faster and create much more sales for Infocus and all their dealers. Think about how many 4805 have been sold due to this forum and, correct me if I am wrong, I don't think they were all sold in the first week of release. I understand where the dealers are coming from, but this is a small, paid membership club and these are good customers to have on Infocus's side if you are in the market of selling those projectors. 50 to 60 positive, vocal Infocus owners are going to sell a lot more projectors in the long run, than by denying them the sale and forcing them to turn to a cheaper alternative. I think some people are being near sighted on this one.

Bigoober

04-05-06, 10:51 PM

cavu,

We talked a couple of weeks ago. I bought a IN76 from AVS and may be cancelling that, even forgoing the $200 deposit to hold onto one until I get back into the country, with the crud that this dealer is having to deal with. Nothing against AVS obviously, but I don't mind losing $200 to buy another projector if this dealer gets the back end of this deal. I'll just buy another company's product from AVS and look for some of my other needed items from HTS to give him some of the business he deserves from doing the right thing for his customers.

Hope it all ends well but ready to pull the trigger.

Craig

rrhomes

04-05-06, 10:51 PM

All this confusion is making me consider the Samsung H710AE.
Lens shift is looking very tempting and Infocus is losing my respect quickly.

I agree that really looks like a sweet machine.

Dogwood

04-05-06, 10:52 PM

Hope I'm not derailing this thread, but I thought I would share a few quick impressions of the IN76. I just received mine and have set it up temporarily upside down on a shelf (I haven't received my new ceiling mount yet). I am a previous X1 owner and I am currently upgrading from an 4805. Well the 76 sure won't disapoint anyone with it's performance. The contrast and black levels seem similiar to the 4805 or maybe a little better (no contest when compared with the X1). I have about 800 hours on my 4805 and as we know bulbs dim with age, but I still feel that the picture is a fair amount brighter than when the 4805 was new. In any case it is much brighter than a used 4805. Fan noise is improved somewhat, the improvement is enough to notice, but not nearly as dramatic as I was hoping for and yes I am in low power mode. The main reason I upgraded was that I sit at 1.5 times the screen width, and I can now say that I see no SDE at this distance. SDE was quite apparent with the 4805 at that distance. Hopefully the new mount will arrive yet this week and I can get a permanent ceiling mount going and get more familiar with this machine. So far I'm very pleased with my decision as SDE was very annoying at my seating distance with the 4805.

Dave

microbiologist

04-05-06, 10:55 PM

Yes, while I'm not one of those "vindictive, whining babies" (or whatever), some of us don't want to be the unpaid demo facility for InFocus (or any other) products. I have one of every InFocus out on display, a $1500 screen and the cost of renting demo space and advertising and it's not a small investment to have tied up. InFocus has a serious vested interest in keeping dealers in business or they will lose significant sales in the long run. What if you could save a few $hundred, even $thousand, on a car, but there was no place to ever try one out before buying ever again? Or get it serviced? I know I pay the shipping and deal with registration and shipping on all of the IF products I sell locally. I also get my customers their replacement bulbs at cost and offer trade up specials. I've had people come in, look at the projectors, then save $100 at Sam's Club, then call me for accessories (to which I say "what, Sam's club doesn't sell those?". To be polite, it's highly annoying and doesn't much make me thing well of human beings in general. I think dealers have every right to complain about someone who tries to put every other dealer out of business and InFocus has the right to preserve it's existing dealer base (who might say "kiss off"), otherwise, they won't have one and will go out of business. I don't think anyone is seeing the big picture here.

Thanks for your candor. You have a substantial point. It is true, that someone should not abuse the dealer's showroom and then go online to purchase cheaper.

Also thanks for having the guts for revealing the other side of the argument. I would only comment to say that enthusiasts, like people on the forum, tend to be DIYers with respect to setup, cal., install etc., and do not require the obvious service which a dealer provides. Forum viewers are probably not core customers for shops.

However, the offering of Powerbuys should not be condemmed since it is targeted to a specific segment of enthusiasts. None of these people take anything from shops and do not interfere with shop sales.

The double-talk I see is that some of the same shops which want to get full retail for their products will sell their trade-ins, discontinued products etc, through Ebay and other discounted sources.

Store sales and mail order/web sales are essentially two different markets which cater to unique customer bases. I do very much respect your point about someone going to Sam's after seeing your store. These people deserve the same treatment as the now-disliked dealers.

I do think that if a dealer takes advantage of forums such as this one, to get publicity for their presence, then they are stepping out of their own "local store" market and should not take issue of the buying preferences of forum members. Also, these dealers would be happy to get full retail from distant customers for whom they do not provide show room time, personal consultation etc. Hence one can see the "Give and Take" inherent when trying to capture multiple markets.

The forum members are absolutely right in complaining about someone using dirty tricks to try to usurp the "powerbuy" deals. If one wishes to get business from long distance customers, they should be prepared to compete with others who will supply these customers.

Regards.

Jeff

JeffKB

04-05-06, 11:04 PM

Guys,

This thread is out of control.

For those wishing to discuss this matter further, I would encourage you to start a separate thread. InFocus obviously feels that HTS was in some sort of violation of their dealer agreement. And believe me, it's not that the price was too good. A dealer can sell a PJ for whatever he desires. What that violation is, we don't know exactly.

Only one side of the story is being presented here, and it's by the dealer's advocate. Keep that in mind. The other side, InFocus, is not going to be posting. They would never discuss a case like this in a public forum, nor should they.

I'd love to get back to the matter at hand and discuss the projectors themselves. I received an IN76 on Monday and will post some initial thoughts after the furor dies down. And please don't ask me where I got it - my purchase was also an adventure! :D

Mupi

04-05-06, 11:08 PM

Fan noise is improved somewhat, the improvement is enough to notice, but not nearly as dramatic as I was hoping for and yes I am in low power mode.

there you go. I guess they are making the
bulb way too bright so they just cant get the fan noise down.
There is really no need to have 900 lumens for home theater.
we are not using a 200" screen.

I dont mind playing $200 every year to replace a bulb if the damn thing
was quieter and lower in brightness.

microbiologist

04-05-06, 11:21 PM

You mean anyone who is not also a dealer that is pissed that many of us jumped on the AVS Powerbuy?

I think his comments are just a release of frustration which any dealer would feel when someone uses the dealer's store time, demos, advice, etc, then goes and orders products from an on-line source. Does a dealer set themselves up for this by opening a storefront? Of course. However, I fully understand the frustration of the dealer. The trade off is that the store will sell product to those who need the valuable service the store provides. It is a numbers game. For every "X" amount of people who visit the store and purchase products, there will be a certain amount of people who abuse the kind service the store provides.

Do not underestimate the cost of running store. It is substantial. Those of us who order from on-line sources or buy used equipment do not have to write checks for rent, help, insurance, etc. When sales slow or things get tight, this threatens the livelihood of the store owner who put their heart and sole into this venture.

On the other hand, the store owner should not attack the mail order buyer who never utilized any resources from the store. The mail order merchant has their own overhead issues and has the pressure of reduced margins to contend with. When one enters the cyber arena, be it forums or other on-line media, he enters the arena of the long distance dealer or buyer and should be prepared to compete on those terms. If one is trying to reach customers in cyberspace, he is not providing demos, store time, personal consultations etc., and should not expect to charge the same fee for products that do not require effort to sell.

In the end, this is why we have mail order and store front sales, and the prices tend to differ. Welcome to the real world of business.

Dogwood

04-05-06, 11:22 PM

Mupi,

At least for me the brightness is a plus. It gives the image a more 3 Dimesional look, allows a little more room light to be present, and when your bulb dims after many hours the image is still acceptable. If the image is too bright at first one can always use a filter to dim it. But your point is well taken, people will fall on both sides of the brightness issue.

Dave

mjolson

04-05-06, 11:48 PM

Guys,

This thread is out of control.

For those wishing to discuss this matter further, I would encourage you to start a separate thread.

I agree with Jeff. This whole matter is really volatile and there's a lot of speculation here that could ruin numerous reputations. It has nothing to do with the merits of the projectors and could easily get this thread closed.

-Mike

sharkbait

04-06-06, 12:16 AM

Come on Smithfarmer nothing illegal has been done, no one will do jail time over the AVS Powerbuy offer, don't be so melodramatic. Gheesh... If the story is true that other dealers have complained about the powerbuy, discussions will take place, web pages will be altered and an agreement will be hammered out. And if that doesn't happen everyone involved is going to spend a lengthy time in the gulag. ;) If an agreement isn't hammered out the sales won't happen and money will be refunded.

My guess is that Infocus wants to do business and sell projectors, in the end all the rules about pricing is a dealer issue to"protect" their partners in business, ie the dealers themselves. I'm new to this game so maybe my assumptions are just making me an ass but I know as an owner of a business it wouldn't matter to me who makes the sales, get that product rolling especially during the first weeks. I'm making the same amount whether its through the PB or BestBuyBusiness. Right now I would view whiny dealers as an impediment, because whatever hinders my product being sold to the public isn't good for business.

I also admit that I am biased I got in on the PB on Monday and really want good info on the status this whole thing. I guess I will make a call in the morning to HTS.

(I definitely don't have this forum stuff down why is my post above smithfarmers and not below it? )

JeffKB

04-06-06, 01:23 AM

Since the bully pulpit is continuing and it looks like this thread is hopelessly derailed for a while, I'll ask a simple question.

Cavu - exactly what is the accusation by InFocus against HTS? Is it a MAP violation? The eBay auction you guys were doing, what??

sugatam

04-06-06, 08:01 AM

That's like Audi "has to acknowledge" that Kia and Hyundai's price point falls far beneath its price point.

Buy as you will. They'll lose one customer and keep 10 more.

Wow, that is some arrogance. And the results of this attitude are clear from Infocus' financials. Infocus's insistence on selling at MSRP (I know, I know, it is not exactly that, but it is what is essentially boils down to), and other manufacturer's letting the free market prevail, results in, for example, the IN76 and Sammy H710 being available at fairly similar price points. To me, that is the Kias and Hyundais putting a Audi price tag on their products. Good luck with that!

baumanj

04-06-06, 08:25 AM

I am currently considering combining the IN76 with a 2.05 aspect ratio Carada screen as a compromise between 1.78 and 2.35 material.

I have found out the the Mits HC3000 can shift the image around the DMD at least 1/2 the distance of the entire diplayed image. This allows me to use the full screen height for 1.78 material and zoom out and shift up 2.35 material to eliminate the black bars and fit on the screen. I know I am just trading black bar space, but this allows a larger 2.35 image with is a priority with me.

Can anyone confirm that the IN76 is capable of this? I assume that if it's using the same chip, it may be possible.

Thanks,
Jon

Kysersose

04-06-06, 08:41 AM

Alright everyone, anymore complaints about the powerbuy can now please be directed to those directly responsible. This thread is going far off course.

Please use PM or email from here on out. I will now delete any new comments that continue to derail this thread. Let's get back to talking about the projector itself.

More reviews would be nice.

Thanks,

Kyser

Jed M

04-06-06, 09:57 AM

Has anyone compared the Samsung 710 to the IN76. The Samsung on paper looks like the winner, but I can't find any comparisons. If the IN76 is going to sell for full price, would I just be better off buying the Samsung for essentially the same price (street)?

BrandonJF

04-06-06, 10:01 AM

Ja Phule

04-06-06, 10:13 AM

Jed M

04-06-06, 10:27 AM

The 710 uses a DC3 chip vs the DC2 used by the IN76. The DC3 has darker blacks, improving contrast.
Thats what lead me to my question. It looks better on paper with the DC3, lens shift, etc., but has anyone compared the two? Or is it just safe to assume the 710 would be a better projector since it has the DC3?

Ja Phule

04-06-06, 11:03 AM

Thats what lead me to my question. It looks better on paper with the DC3, lens shift, etc., but has anyone compared the two? Or is it just safe to assume the 710 would be a better projector since it has the DC3?

http://www.avscience.com/reviews.htm

Not really a direct comparison, but the reviews were done in the same environment, check out the measured specs. 1600:1 vs 2500:1 (IN76 vs 710).

JeffKB

04-06-06, 11:04 AM

The 710 uses the HD2+DC2 chip, it is not DC3. It's a different chip than than the IN76, but it uses the same DC2 technology.

Jed - don't make the assumption that the IN76 is only to be had at MAP. Dealers have to abide by MAP rules, but if you call them I'm sure there are good discounts to be had.

Ja Phule

04-06-06, 11:14 AM

Hmmm...I stand corrected. I was under the impression that the deeper blacks of the 710 would mean it was using the DC3 but I guess it still has better blacks even with the DC2 chip.

Vic Y

04-06-06, 11:48 AM

agro1

04-06-06, 12:25 PM

Audioholics has posted their addendum to their "first look" review of the IN76. As noted earlier in this thread, it is even more positive than the "first look" review.

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/InFocusIN76DLPprojector3.php

WOW....that is really impressive. Especially the comments about the IN76 in relation to the much higher priced 7205 and 7210...

cavu

04-06-06, 12:38 PM

Let's get back to talking about the projector itself.Great idea.

BTW, the AVS Club Powerbuy already has its own thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=661330) at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=661330

diggumsmax

04-06-06, 12:53 PM

Anyone out there who owns a in76 I was just wondering what color settings your are using. I noticed that they are all set at 50 out of the box so I figure that these could be set a lot better. I know some of that is personal preference but anyone who has a little more experience setting these up I would greatly appreciate the settings you are using. This is my first projector and I am by no means an expert in getting the color setting correctly. I have tried one of those dvd's to calibrate it (I forget the name right now but its a pretty popular choice) and I haven't had any luck with that. It just confused me more. Also, I know settings like brightness and contrast are affected by the room setup and ambient light but are the color settings affected by the same things?

Also, I am very happy with my in76. Like I said this is my first projector so I have nothing to compare it with. A couple of things I did notice was for some reason on 480i material coming from my DTV HD Tivo that I have to put the overscan on because I get some weird pixelation thing going on at the top of the screen and down across the right side. I am pretty sure this is my Tivo causing that because I have no problems with HDTV or dvd in 480P or 480I or xbox 360 in any setting(480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i). Another thing is when I first got it the picture for my 360 was really washed out and hard to tell what was going on, especially in really dark scenes. This was all corrected by adjusting the brightness, contrast, and sharpness. I think this had to do more with room setup that anything else because I am not in a light controled environment.

NoThru22

04-06-06, 01:21 PM

Your TV or Tivo is not causing anything. You are seeing the raw SD video signal with no overscan and that is information, such as the time index, closed captioning, or rating, up at the top of the screen.

cavu

04-06-06, 02:13 PM

The IN72, IN74, and IN76 are not affected by this issue.Hey Bob!

Glad to know you are here and the recent discussion got at least as far as you! ;)

BTW, after all the talk about 2- and 3-year extended lamp warranties:Infocus cancelled the ELW2 and ELW3 SKUs altogether and no longer offer them after 31 Mar 06. Only the ELW1 1-year warranty remains on your web-site.

I guess those products lasted a whole ninety-days. Do you know why you withdrew them?? What does this say to your confidence in the ongoing life of the lamps?

Will you honour all the ELW2 and ELW3 units still being sold through the retail channel?Also, what is the difference between 480p and 720x480 over DVI/HDMI? How does the projector know whether to compress the 720 to 640 for 4:3 or expand it to 854 for 16:9?

flyingbig

04-06-06, 03:11 PM

Any feedback on brightness uniformity? My H30 wasn't all that great as the left side of the screen was brighter then the right side and it also had abit of a dark patch in the middle of the image which was easy to spot when you looked for it during camera pans. I read on Projector Central that they measured as much as 35 percent difference between the brightness and darkest part of the image. So anyone testing out there IN76 in this respect as its pretty important to me.

Dogwood

04-06-06, 05:39 PM

Diggumsmax, the color settings on the IN76 are very good right out of the box, very much adjustment in them won't be necesary. I have only about 2 hours of use so far with my 76 and don't plan to adjust the color until I have spent a lot more time with it. I did have to turn off the enhanced black setting on my Dennon 3910 in order to get the best detail in dark scenes. Also I get a slightly better picture setting the Dennon to 720p rather than letting the projector scale the image. As of yet, I have not noticed any brightness uniformity issues whatsoever.

diggumsmax

04-06-06, 05:49 PM

Thanks for the quick replies. It wasn't like the color ever looked bad or I had any problems with it. I just wanted it calibrated the best it could be which it sounds like it already is. Also, this is my first projector and I just want to say I'm blown away by its performance. I don't have anything to compare it to but I think it does an excellent job. Especially with HD material. I am also suprised by how good of a job it does when I'm watching it in the middle of the day. It isn't set up in a light controled environment, I have white ceiling. My walls are dark green so that isn't as much of a issue. One of my main concerns before I bought this projector was the three windows in the room where the projector was going to be and daytime viewing. I only have shades and I am eventually going to buy some curtains but I am broke right now because of the projector and screen I just bought but to tell you the truth I don't need them. I know they would help but I can watch tv or play games during the middle of the day with no problem, even with lots of ambient light. It does look better at night and I will eventually get some curtains to try to get rid of some of the ambient light but its fine for now. I am using it on a 106" elitescreen cinetension high contrast grey screen. I am also happy with my screen. Once again its my first so I have nothing to compare it to but it works for me.

kevivoe

04-06-06, 06:56 PM

Screen Door effect not much of an issue. 118" diagonal image and 1.3 times width away (135") it is a non-issue on white text credits.

There are 5 sharpness settings, I like 1 up from "standard" called "sharper" as it seems to provide more definition. ** update. I pulled the "contrast" setting down a tad to help temper the "sharper" setting. The 5 sharpness settings seem to jump in big steps. **

480i/480p signals will have you tweaking the focus ring back and forth before you realize that is as good as it gets with these sources. This is evident on a 118" diagonal image, smaller screen size may reduce this feeling of needing to focus. ** update. I found that the "aspect button" on the remote goes through 5 settings ... in there is "native" and if feeding the DirectTV 480i signal toggled to "native" reduce the picture size to 4:3 but also shrinks the vertical by 25% approx. This moves the 118" 16:9 480i image down to 60" 4:3 image and much more watchable. Can't do 480i to 118" diagonal for sure. Extrapolating the other way, 1080p projectors will be very nice to have. **

720p and 1080i signals over component are very good. Here a small adjustment in focus pays off. Tried DirectTV, X-Box 360 and off air 1080i and 720p broadcasts. These are very, very good. It makes 480i/480p painful to endure. The X-Box is really fantastic even at 118" it is very detailed. Sure beats the snot out of the 57" 1080i CRT we have been using .... too bad, I paid $4,000 for that beast just 4 years ago.

I played around with the gamma settings menu. You have 5 choices I think, called CRT, film, video, PC, and bright room. I prefer PC, CRT then film in that order. PC and CRT seem to have better blacks than film. PC provides a bright image, film a dim theater type image. It came defaulted to film.

Noise? No different than my laptop. Sitting right next to the PJ it was hardly noticeable during movies/TV. I had to turn off an adjacent room air purifier (behind a door I might add) and pause the movie to "hear" the IN76. On the ceiling in a carpeted room there should be no issue. The sound seems to exit the sides of the PJ where the vent holes are located. A simple acoustical treatment on each adjacent wall near the ceiling may absorb what remains. I won't bother.

I can't speak to colors except to compare them to a 57" 1080i CRT TV and a 25" 720p LCD TV we also have. The IN76 looks very good which means my CRT needs calibration. At 25" the LCD doesn't show much but the ocean in Nemo actually looks like an ocean at 118" diagonal and the IN76! The CRT also looks softer ... I may need a sharpness adjustment after seeing the IN76 with the same HD material.

HDMI cable comes next week. Should be as good or better than the component I have already tried.

After seeing the HD channels and X-Box 360 HD sources the wife says HD-DVD is a must have. A whole new chapter in viewing pleasure to come ...

Oh yea, the install manual has a few pages dedicated to the contents and setup of the PJ. It comes with sections for 12 languages ... and not one of them is English! I think I figured it out between the Korean and Russian however! ** 2nd update = Found a 1 page insert in the materials that was in English. It looked almost like an after thought. **

k

danmetcalf

04-06-06, 07:25 PM

Nice review kevivoe! Hopefully I'll be able to give my impressions in the not too distant future ;)

Bob Williams

04-06-06, 08:00 PM

Infocus cancelled the ELW2 and ELW3 SKUs altogether and no longer offer them after 31 Mar 06. Only the ELW1 1-year warranty remains on your web-site.

I guess those products lasted a whole ninety-days. Do you know why you withdrew them??

I don't know the exact reasons but I believe their removal was part of a revamp of our warranty offerings.

What does this say to your confidence in the ongoing life of the lamps?

My confidence is unchanged. The lamp in the IN7X series has been the most reliable lamp I have ever dealt with in my 11 years of projector design.

One change you may not have noticed is that the base warranty on the lamp in the IN72, IN74, and IN76 (as well as the IN24 and IN26 which also use this lamp) was changed from 90 days to 6 months.

Will you honour all the ELW2 and ELW3 units still being sold through the retail channel?

I do not know, but I will ask.

Also, what is the difference between 480p and 720x480 over DVI/HDMI? How does the projector know whether to compress the 720 to 640 for 4:3 or expand it to 854 for 16:9?

There is no difference between 480p and 720x480 to the projector. The choice of resizing is up to the end user. The "16:9" resizing mode will expand it, and the "4:3" mode will compress it.

JeffKB

04-06-06, 08:23 PM

One change you may not have noticed is that the base warranty on the lamp in the IN72, IN74, and IN76 (as well as the IN24 and IN26 which also use this lamp) was changed from 90 days to 6 months.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. That's exactly what the industry needs and I commend you guys for leading the way (as usual). In light of other projector manufacturer's bulb issues, this is a real statement. :)

cavu

04-06-06, 08:32 PM

The lamp in the IN7X series has been the most reliable lamp I have ever dealt with in my 11 years of projector design.That's impressive!One change you may not have noticed is that the base warranty on the lamp ... was changed from 90 days to 6 months.Cool!There is no difference between 480p and 720x480 to the projector.So the question follows ... with a D1, are we better off to specify a custom DVI output of 720x480@xHz (presumably the raw, unaltered, digital stream from the disc) and set the PJ to "16:9/4:3" input mode or set the D1 output to 854x480@xHz and use the "Native" input mode??

mjolson

04-06-06, 08:49 PM

Bob Williams

04-07-06, 03:23 PM

Will you honour all the ELW2 and ELW3 units still being sold through the retail channel?

I have heard back from my internal contacts and the answer is, "Yes, we will."

Bob Williams

04-07-06, 03:28 PM

with a D1, are we better off to specify a custom DVI output of 720x480@xHz (presumably the raw, unaltered, digital stream from the disc) and set the PJ to "16:9/4:3" input mode or set the D1 output to 854x480@xHz and use the "Native" input mode??
With the D1 I would recommend the output resolution match the projector resolution since the D1 always presumes that the display is set for 16:9 resizing so when faced with 4:3 content it will scale the image. You don't want double scaling so the projector should be set up for 1:1 pixel mapping.

Mitch P.

04-07-06, 05:07 PM

I just received my IN76 and there was no US manual in the box? No biggie as I can read it online, but it was a pain to go have to look up the type of screws online for ceiling mounting purposes. I'm guessing the US manual is on the CD only and the paper copy is the International one? I did have that, just didn't have my interpretation glasses on :)

Out of the box it throws a much nicer picture than I had anticipated. Being my first projector, I'm impressed so far, especially the black levels. They are better than my rear projection DLP TV which is exactly what I wanted.

Mupi

04-07-06, 07:45 PM

WOW....that is really impressive. Especially the comments about the IN76 in relation to the much higher priced 7205 and 7210...

I guess the reviewer ammended some positive remarks just so that his review
doesnt spoil the sales. I dont think his reviews have any credibility what so ever.

No measurements nothing. just some blurb.

kevivoe

04-07-06, 09:21 PM

Alimentall

04-07-06, 09:33 PM

I just installed a 74 in my house (because demand for the 76 is too hot right now) and it's just about right. I am 13' away from a 110" screen and SDE is *just* at the threshold. I'll eventually switch out the 74 and go with the 76. It's a shame about the 74 though. By price, it's the best deal in the stable, but it will probably end up in the "always a bridesmaid, never a bride" category for most people. Or, "middle child syndrome". The IN76 just looks gorgeous with HD though. I'm sure glad they upped the bulb warranty because I come home and the moment the sun gets low, the projector comes on and stays on. I find myself falling asleep watching it because, with the Dish 622, there's too much to watch, so I sure wished it had a sleep button! I don't think these units are so incredibly unique, but they did a great job at a great price with a nice selection and feature set.

What would be nice is a DC3 version at $4K and, hopefully within a year, a 1080 model at $6K-$7K. The chassis is great and if the optics aren't SOTA, I don't really care because the optics of a projector are so much more advanced than the technology itself, so I say "bring 1080 to the masses InFocus!!!!"

Bob Williams

04-07-06, 10:06 PM

I find myself falling asleep watching it because, with the Dish 622, there's too much to watch, so I sure wished it had a sleep button!

There is a sleep timer. It is in the system menu, and the way it functions is that it turns the projector off after 4 hours. That way you can simply leave it enabled for most content you're likely to watch.

bub

04-07-06, 10:38 PM

agro1

04-07-06, 11:05 PM

I guess the reviewer ammended some positive remarks just so that his review
doesnt spoil the sales. I dont think his reviews have any credibility what so ever.

No measurements nothing. just some blurb.

Sales??...sorry, but that was an independent review, and the reviewer has absolutely no vested interest in how many units InFocus sells. And he did not post an "amendment" as you suggest, it was an "Addendum". Two entirely different things.
That being said, do you have a SP7210, SP7205 and IN76 at your disposal to do side by side comparisons ? No, didn't think so. So until you do and you post some "measurements", my opinion is that your comments are just as baseless as you suggest the reviewers are.

One other thing....you state that you "dont think his reviews have any credibility what so ever.", yet previously stated that the reviewer "ammended some positive remarks just so that his review doesnt spoil the sales"

So by your own admission, this reviewers remarks could have spolied sales. Well if he has "no credibility what so ever" as you put it, then how would his review spoil sales ?

Your logic is flawed...I suggest you do a bit more research HERE (http://www.audioholics.com/index.html) and you'll soon come to realize the database of knowledge this particular reviewer draws from, and how credible his review actually is.

Mitch P.

04-07-06, 11:06 PM

Yes there is, a simple 1 page insert.

that's not a manual it's a "quick start guide" and is only for getting up and running quickly. The actual user manual is on cd only and was most likely meant to save printing costs.

penticton102

04-07-06, 11:35 PM

Mupi

04-08-06, 12:28 AM

had the same issue with my 4805 ,just run it in high mode for 3or 4 hours and it went away. http://japhule.collinsreport.com/4805FAQ/html/index.html#Q36

its my understanding the new in72/74/76 uses the same bulb so this might be the fix for it..... :)

I thought the flicker issue was fixed in INxx series according to BOB

Mupi

04-08-06, 12:41 AM

Sales??...sorry, but that was an independent review, and the reviewer has absolutely no vested interest in how many units InFocus sells. And he did not post an "amendment" as you suggest, it was an "Addendum". Two entirely different things.
That being said, do you have a SP7210, SP7205 and IN76 at your disposal to do side by side comparisons ? No, didn't think so. So until you do and you post some "measurements", my opinion is that your comments are just as baseless as you suggest the reviewers are.

One other thing....you state that you "dont think his reviews have any credibility what so ever.", yet previously stated that the reviewer "ammended some positive remarks just so that his review doesnt spoil the sales"

So by your own admission, this reviewers remarks could have spolied sales. Well if he has "no credibility what so ever" as you put it, then how would his review spoil sales ?

Your logic is flawed...I suggest you do a bit more research HERE (http://www.audioholics.com/index.html) and you'll soon come to realize the database of knowledge this particular reviewer draws from, and how credible his review actually is.

well a professional review shouldnt be a bunch of words like "wow" this thing is great or colors are good. even a J6K can do that. Did he show the grey scale
or any other measurements. Infocus is well known to put out actual numbers. How come he got such a low contrast. The main reason people panicked about SDE was due to that review.

A pro review should be complete with all measuremenrs instead if just some snap shots and a few words.

The excuse that preproduction unit was bad is just lame. Why would a manufacturer make a bad unit and send it out for review.

I certainly dont thin IN76 will be as hot as 4805 due to the price point.
If I can get similar units for 1999 why would I bother to pay more.
Not to mention that fact that we cant add a filter. Stupid sryling
And the fan noise: I dont think it is as low as promised.

A good engineer can come up with a great product but the stylists and
idiots in marketing ruin that when it eventually comes out. I am sure BOB
didtn intend on having an oval lens cover.

why would they make a 900-1000 lumen unit and not provide an option for
filter?

Bob Williams

04-08-06, 01:41 AM

had the same issue with my 4805 ,just run it in high mode for 3or 4 hours and it went away. http://japhule.collinsreport.com/4805FAQ/html/index.html#Q36

its my understanding the new in72/74/76 uses the same bulb so this might be the fix for it..... :)

You can do that or you can contact InFocus customer service and they can get you a new lamp.

bub

04-08-06, 10:23 AM

You can do that or you can contact InFocus customer service and they can get you a new lamp.

New lamp? This one only has 4 hours on it, dang.

I did email InFocus tech support, guess I will have to wait until they are in on Monday before I hear anything.

A note about my IN72 being loud. I just got the replacement IN72 and sat it on my kitchen table and turned it on. It started up in high speed fan mode (I guess?), then settled down. It was very quiet, I had to bend over to make sure it was still on. I'm thinking, great now I know what everybody is saying when they say these new INxx series are quiet.

Mount it on my ceiling and turn it on. Within minutes it is as loud as the other one. I check the menu and the 'high power' setting is unchecked. I'm getting confused now. How come when orientated upright and only 3 feet from me, I can hardly hear it but orientated upside down on my ceiling, I can hear it from 40 feet away???

So, decided to try a few things (I'm seeing severe lamp flicker, see above post). Went into the menu and selected high power. Guess what? Absolutely no difference in noise level. Switch back to low power and after a couple of seconds, the noise level drops to a quiet level. BUT, within just a minute or two, back up to high level noise. So, for me at least, my IN72 refuses to run the fans in low power mode (if that is the right way to look at it).

High power = high noise level of fans
Low power also = high noise level of fans

I am in midwest and it is pretty mild temperature right now. I'm thinking about 67 degrees inside. I have the projector mounted maybe 8 inches from the ceiling and about 8 inches from the wall. There are no heat ducts nearby (the heat isn't even on now anyways).

Does anybody have any ideas?
George

Dogwood

04-08-06, 10:59 AM

George,
I appear to have the same issue, at least at the times I have been paying attention. So far I haven't been impressed with the projectors noise level. My room has been running around 78 degrees, I'll set the air down tonight and try again. I will monitor it more closly and share anything I learn.

I must say overall the projector is awesome so far, even with the higher fan noise it's a keeper.
Dave

David_MSP

04-08-06, 11:21 AM

Hi Bob,

I apologize if this has been covered elsewhere but I couldn't seem to find anything. My question is this. I currently own an InFocus 4805 which I love very much. Is it true that upgrading to an IN72 would probably not be worth it? There is no doubt that going to an IN76 would be beneficial but an IN72 upgrade seems less necessary. That being said, the thing I keep coming back to is that I like the additional HDMI input on the new IN7X projectors in addition to the 1080p capabilities.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

David

swithey

04-08-06, 11:33 AM

The main reason I upgraded (to teh IN76) was that I sit at 1.5 times the screen width, and I can now say that I see no SDE at this distance. SDE was quite apparent with the 4805 at that distance. Hopefully the new mount will arrive yet this week and I can get a permanent ceiling mount going and get more familiar with this machine. So far I'm very pleased with my decision as SDE was very annoying at my seating distance with the 4805.

Dave
Dave,

Would you be able to move to about 1.3x screen width and check out the SDE? The scene I always test with is the opening of Ice Age with all that white snow. It's great (unfortunately) at showing SDE.

NOTE: With my curent config, I'm 1.5x but if I stretch my screen size out a bit (which I am considering), I will be somwhere between 1.3x/1.4x.

Thanks!

Dogwood

04-08-06, 11:54 AM

Steve,

I will check this out, hopefully tonight. I am currently ceiling mounting the unit and hope that I don't encounter any problems.

Dave

bubbawilly

04-08-06, 01:20 PM

Sales??...sorry, but that was an independent review, and the reviewer has absolutely no vested interest in how many units InFocus sells...

In order to stop the misinformation right here and now, the 'reviewer' owns Integrity Home Theater. He's an InFocus dealer based in Colorado Springs, Colorado.

bubbawilly

04-08-06, 01:36 PM

Does anybody have any ideas?

Many projector brands increase fan speed when ceiling mounted. With the vast majority of those products, the user has to enter a menu and switch the projector to "Ceiling" mode. The fan speed increases along with that switch. If I'm not mistaken, the IN7x models sense the projector's orientation, and switch between desk and ceiling mode automatically, so the fan speed increases automatically as well. It would be totally independent of the fan speed setting in the menu.

The fallacy about the fan noise specs on these projectors is that the lowest value is always associated with the quietest mode, IOW, desk mode. Rarely, if ever are separate specs listed for the noise level in ceiling mode. Sometimes the ceiling and high fan modes are the same. It sounds like that may be the case with the IN7x models.

smithfarmer

04-08-06, 02:30 PM

well a professional review shouldnt be a bunch of words like "wow" this thing is great or colors are good. even a J6K can do that. Did he show the grey scale
or any other measurements. Infocus is well known to put out actual numbers. How come he got such a low contrast. The main reason people panicked about SDE was due to that review.

A pro review should be complete with all measuremenrs instead if just some snap shots and a few words.

The excuse that preproduction unit was bad is just lame. Why would a manufacturer make a bad unit and send it out for review.

Mupi, do you know the difference between a preview and a review?

The article that JS wrote is a preview of the IN76 using a pre-production unit. You can't do a credible in depth review on this type of unit. A review can only be done on a final build unit that came off the assembly line, one that is intended for sale to the public. It would be a disservice to Infocus as well as to any readers of the article on the Audioholics site to do otherwise. That is why it is clearly stated on more than one occasion in the article that this is a pre-production unit.

The following is an excerpt from that article:
InFocus is also famous for being properly color calibrated right out of the box, and it looks like the IN76 follows in this tradition. Although the unit we had in here to evaluate was a pre-production unit without the final software,

That is also the reason for the addendum. He wrote it after he received a final build production unit. He may do an in depth review at a later date.

HiHoStevo

04-08-06, 03:21 PM

Dave,

Would you be able to move to about 1.3x screen width and check out the SDE? The scene I always test with is the opening of Ice Age with all that white snow. It's great (unfortunately) at showing SDE.

NOTE: With my curent config, I'm 1.5x but if I stretch my screen size out a bit (which I am considering), I will be somwhere between 1.3x/1.4x.

Thanks!

Hi Steve....... I don't know if this will help or not..., but this is the little review I wrote up after seeing the IN72 and IN76 at CES in January. The projector I saw was probably the same one that John used for his "preview" remarks in Audioholics. The demo movie on the IN76 if I recall correctly was SeaBiscuit, so it is not as challenging for SDE as Ice Age would have been. However, I personally am probably "hyper" sensitive to SDE... don't know why... just seem to really hate it! So my personall guess is after re-reading my notes from CES is that you would be fine at 1.3.

...............................................

The IN72 was being shown in a small room with a black curtain only partially drawn to secure the room. The show floor faced the screen so it was not a perfect venue, but compared to others it was marvelous… and you could shut the curtain if there were not too many people trying to peer in. The IN72 looks terrific, given that it is a 480p projector. I never had much time to spend with the Optoma H31 when it morphed from the H30. The difference between the two was the use of the DarkChip 2 from TI and you can tell a difference. The colors seem more saturated and pleasing. However there was a price to be paid with the H31 and it is still visible on the new IN72, and that is SDE. You have to have a room where you can set up your seating at least 2.0x from the screen to get the SDE to an acceptable level. Apparently the DarkChip technology also darkens the inter-pixel gap in addition to whatever else is going on, which makes the SDE more apparent than on the earlier chip. So there are benefits, but tradeoff’s to get them. The picture was quite bright and InFocus reports the IN72 at 900 lumens (150 more than the 4805), 2000:1 Contrast, 6 segment 4x color wheel, and a 3000 hour lamp. For those of you unfamiliar with InFocus products the company has historically been much more accurate in it’s reporting of lumens than have many others. Quite often the number IF reports are the projector’s “calibrated” lumen number. It will be available in February for $1,299.
IF also has a new IN74ex model (576p native) that will be available in March at an MSRP of $1,999, but was not being demonstrated.
The IN76 will also make its debut in March at an MSRP of $2,999 which is $500 higher than many of the rumors that were running around AVS (wishful thinking I guess). All of the new projectors are in sleek black cases and produce much less noise than their previous counterparts. Exactly how little noise I could not tell as the units on display were all Beta units and there was too much ambient noise from the show to judge how they would sound in a HT environment. The IN76 is using the Pixelworks processing chip which is a departure from the Faroudja processing used in the previous generation. The IN76 is also reported as using a 6 segment 4x color wheel, with 1000 lumens and a 3000:1 contrast ration. Interestingly enough the IN76 did not report what bulb wattage was being used or what the expected bulb life would be. I can tell you I thought the image was beautiful and for those of you interested the SDE was visible inside approx. 1.2x screen width.

HiHoStevo

04-08-06, 04:01 PM

Bob............

Could you weigh-in on this noise issue...........??

Is the IN76 supposed to automatically and permanently go into "high" fan mode whenever the projector is ceiling mounted despite the menu selection?

Thanks

JeffKB

04-08-06, 04:40 PM

In order to stop the misinformation right here and now, the 'reviewer' owns Integrity Home Theater. He's an InFocus dealer based in Colorado Springs, Colorado.
Just to clarify, he also sells Panasonic, BenQ, Epson, Hitachi, JVC, Knoll Systems, Marantz, NEC, Optoma, Panasonic, Sharp, SIM2, Studio Experience, and Toshiba. He sells all of the projectors he was comparing in the review, and the review made it very clear that he was a dealer.

John S. used to be a frequent contributor to the forum (member Angilasaurus) and his projector comparisons and reviews have always seemed very honest, fair, and accurate to me. He points out the strengths and weaknesses with the various brands, sometimes favoring one, sometimes the other.

I think it does him a gross injustice to state he has no credibility like Mupi did. In fact, it's uniformed insulting statements like that which is probably the reason he doesn't post anymore. It's really unfortunate too, because his posts were always interesting and informative.

Bob Williams

04-08-06, 05:04 PM

Is the IN76 supposed to automatically and permanently go into "high" fan mode whenever the projector is ceiling mounted despite the menu selection?

No, it is not. The fans should only increase in speed if the internal temperature sensor determines that they need to for keeping everything within thermal limits.

Bob Williams

04-08-06, 05:09 PM

I currently own an InFocus 4805 which I love very much. Is it true that upgrading to an IN72 would probably not be worth it? There is no doubt that going to an IN76 would be beneficial but an IN72 upgrade seems less necessary. That being said, the thing I keep coming back to is that I like the additional HDMI input on the new IN7X projectors in addition to the 1080p capabilities.
In terms of image quality the IN72 is only slightly better than the SP4805, but whether or not the upgrade is worth it is up to you. There are many refinements in the IN72 that could make the upgrade sensible if they are important to you.

JeffKB

04-08-06, 05:57 PM

Bob,

Quick question on IN76 offset for you. Is that 15.59% of screen height calculation constant for all throw distances? Does it vary with throw?

The reason I'm asking is that after squaring the image from the IN76 on the wall, I seem to be getting an offset more like 10%. I'm at about the middle of the throw range. I'm guessing the 15.59% represents a max offset (perhaps at minimum zoom?) I know Optoma was stating offset as a function of throw distance with the HD72.

If the offset does vary by throw, can you provide the formula to calculate?

Thx

cavu

04-08-06, 06:04 PM

BIs that 15.59% of screen height calculation constant for all throw distances? Does it vary with throw?Screen Offset is constant. It is a proportion of screen height (not diagonal, not width).

In this case, the proportion is 15.59%. If your displayed image is 100" tall, the offset is 15.59" meaning the top of the image is 15.59" below the centreline of the lens for a ceiling mounted unit.

It doesn't matter how you get the 100" image height. It has nothing to do with throw. It has nothing to do with zoom. Period.

kevivoe

04-08-06, 06:23 PM

JeffKB

With my screen height of 57" and the center of the lens being 5.125" from the ceiling using a Universal Chief mount I should have the top of my displayed image 57"*(.156) = 8.875" (rounded) + 5.125" (mount offset) = 14" (ceiling to screen top)

I cheated with a tilt and put the image at 9.5" from the ceiling. I measure approx. 1/8" distortion without a screen tilt which is not noticeable from 1.5X screen distance. My throw distance is 15.5', I wanted near zoom = 1 but left a bit for a smaller image (smaller stock screen perhaps).

Using the law of sines from trigonometry I find the tilt at the top of this screen of ...

4.5" (offset cheat)/186" (throw) = ?" (top of screen from wall) / 57" (screen height)

= 1.379"

i.e if I move the top of the screen out by 1 3/8 " I will not see a distortion from my projector tilt. This is easy to do with a couple of wood strips behind the screen bracket if I choose to do so.

JeffKB, measure the width of your projected image at the top and bottom. Your setup sounds like mine, you may measure a difference, whether you "see" this difference is another matter.

K

cavu

04-08-06, 06:38 PM

the top of your projected image is fixed. When you use zoom, the top of the projected image stays and the bottom and sides shrinkThis is incorrect!

If you adjust the zoom, the height of the image changes and the top of the projected image moves - as it must - to maintain a constant offset.

kevivoe

04-08-06, 06:45 PM

This is incorrect!

If you adjust the zoom, the height of the image changes and the top of the projected image moves - as it must - to maintain a constant offset.

Update, Cavu is correct. Top of the image does move with zoom if you leave 1 aspect ratio. I was changing aspect ratio and using zoom to fill the screen and told myself the top of the image is fixed (but you have to zoom and change aspect ratios) to make this happen.

K

Tom Blake

04-08-06, 07:01 PM

I was wondering if anyone had thoughts on whether the IN76 would be a worthy upgrade from the BenQ PE8700? I'm considering making major changes to my system, current projector included. I'm also interested in the Samsung SPH710. Also, would the IN76 be bright enough for a 106" diagonal Grayhawk (an older version with gain around 0.85). Thanks!

Tom

Alimentall

04-08-06, 07:50 PM

No, it is not. The fans should only increase in speed if the internal temperature sensor determines that they need to for keeping everything within thermal limits.

I think too that the typical on-ceiling placement has the ceiling/back wall acting as a "horn" for the sound of the fan. My IN74 is a lot noiser on my ceiling than it is sitting on a rack or coffee table. The IN72 that I have mounted on ceiling in the store is pretty quiet, but it has acoustical tile around it, not sheetrock.

bubbawilly

04-08-06, 07:52 PM

New lamp? This one only has 4 hours on it, dang.

I did email InFocus tech support, guess I will have to wait until they are in on Monday before I hear anything.

A note about my IN72 being loud. I just got the replacement IN72 and sat it on my kitchen table and turned it on. It started up in high speed fan mode (I guess?), then settled down. It was very quiet, I had to bend over to make sure it was still on. I'm thinking, great now I know what everybody is saying when they say these new INxx series are quiet.

Mount it on my ceiling and turn it on. Within minutes it is as loud as the other one. I check the menu and the 'high power' setting is unchecked. I'm getting confused now. How come when orientated upright and only 3 feet from me, I can hardly hear it but orientated upside down on my ceiling, I can hear it from 40 feet away???

So, decided to try a few things (I'm seeing severe lamp flicker, see above post). Went into the menu and selected high power. Guess what? Absolutely no difference in noise level. Switch back to low power and after a couple of seconds, the noise level drops to a quiet level. BUT, within just a minute or two, back up to high level noise. So, for me at least, my IN72 refuses to run the fans in low power mode (if that is the right way to look at it).

High power = high noise level of fans
Low power also = high noise level of fans

I am in midwest and it is pretty mild temperature right now. I'm thinking about 67 degrees inside. I have the projector mounted maybe 8 inches from the ceiling and about 8 inches from the wall. There are no heat ducts nearby (the heat isn't even on now anyways).

Does anybody have any ideas?
George

According to Bob, mounting from the ceiling shouldn't automatically kick the fan into high mode (although most projectors that I am familiar with do increase the fan speed in ceiling mode. It is warmer up there). See post #1416.

Sounds like your unit is suffering from more than a lamp problem. You should exchange it.

HiHoStevo

04-08-06, 08:28 PM

i.e if I move the top of the screen out by 1 3/8 " I will not see a distortion from my projector tilt. This is easy to do with a couple of wood strips behind the screen bracket if I choose to do so.

K

Did you perchance mean 1 3/8 degrees? or do you really have to move the top of the screen almost an inch and half away from the wall?

just seems like an awful lot for 1/8."

David_MSP

04-08-06, 08:30 PM

In terms of image quality the IN72 is only slightly better than the SP4805, but whether or not the upgrade is worth it is up to you. There are many refinements in the IN72 that could make the upgrade sensible if they are important to you.

Thank you Bob! I will have to think about this one.

Mupi

04-08-06, 09:27 PM

cavu

04-08-06, 10:19 PM

who cares about a review of a $4000 screen when the projector is half that price.I spent 2.5 times the cost of my first projector on my first/last screen. I doubt I'll ever replace the screen while I will probably go through a half-dozen projectors in my time left.

ChodTheWacko

04-09-06, 01:00 AM

I think too that the typical on-ceiling placement has the ceiling/back wall acting as a "horn" for the sound of the fan. My IN74 is a lot noiser on my ceiling than it is sitting on a rack or coffee table. The IN72 that I have mounted on ceiling in the store is pretty quiet, but it has acoustical tile around it, not sheetrock.

as a trivial test, why not just put the projector on a table, listen to it, then just flip it over and see if the fan kicks in, then flip it over again and see if it shuts off?

kevivoe

04-09-06, 08:40 AM

Did you perchance mean 1 3/8 degrees? or do you really have to move the top of the screen almost an inch and half away from the wall?

just seems like an awful lot for 1/8."

Yes I calculate, 1 3/8" (1.379" exactly) with the throw I am using.

Another way. 14" correct offset, 9.5" used offset. Throw = 186".

arctan (14/186) = 4.3 degrees
arctan (9.5/186) = 2.92 degrees

difference is tilt so 4.3 degrees ideal to 2.92 degrees desired = 1.38 degrees tilt.

Now I go to the screen and compute how much this tilt will produce on a 57" tall screen to maintain a square image. X/57" = tan (1.38 degrees), solve for X.

X = 1.373 inches very similar to what I computed using the law of sines AND almost the same angle of tilt I compute so in this case tilt in degrees from ideal offset = inches to move the top of a 57" screen out using the 186" throw distance.

No I did not perform the tilt yet. I may get a smaller screen so I am waiting until I decide what to do. If I tighten a screw on the mount the image shifts more than 1/8" so my solution was to oversize the image using zoom to plop the image into the masking somewhat. I don't think fudging offset (by a little bit) is a big deal, I can't imagine someone would spend hours tweaking their mount to align to an existing screen within 1/8" ... but there are some very anal people out there.

k

bub

04-09-06, 09:36 AM

According to Bob, mounting from the ceiling shouldn't automatically kick the fan into high mode (although most projectors that I am familiar with do increase the fan speed in ceiling mode. It is warmer up there). See post #1416.

Sounds like your unit is suffering from more than a lamp problem. You should exchange it.

bubbawilly (you are very close to having a great nik there),
When you say, "Sounds like your unit is suffering from more than a lamp problem." What exactly do you mean?

Besides the flickering, which last night I watched the projector a good 4 hours and there was NO flickering (believe me, I was watching like a hawk). I watched both DVD's over the MonoPrice 25ft DVI>M1-D cable via Bravo D1 and Dish Network HD PVR 622 over the MonoPrice 25ft HDMI cable, no flickering.

The fan did run in high noise level mode virtually the entire time. I did hear it cycle one time to the lower noise level. AND, I forced it into low noise level mode by selecting high power, then low power in the menu. Remember, every time I cycle the projector this way, the fan noise does drop down into lower noise level each time, but only for maybe a minute, then back to high noise level.

BUT, remember this is a replacement IN72. My original IN72 was replaced after speaking with an InFocus tech person. I described to him that my IN72 was loud, not quiet. He never asked me to try anything, didn't ask where or how my projector was mounted, didn't even ask me to turn my unit on. Just heard my complaint and authorized the replacement. I now do not think 'my' unit is any different than 'every other' unit, if you don't count the lamp flickering. Both units ran in high fan noise mode when hung from my ceiling. I had both turned on sitting on my kitchen table and neither ever ran in high fan noise mode, although I never had it on for more than a couple of minutes that way. Both run in high fan noise mode almost from the instant they were turned on mounted to my ceiling.

My room is not even warm at night. My wife was on the couch last night with blankets on and the projector was in high fan noise mode the entire time. I would estimate my room temperature to be about 65 at the warmest and sometimes cooler than that during the evening, there is no heat on in the house right now. The projector lens is 10 inches from the celing and 19 inches from the wall. There are no obstructions and plenty of air circulation around the unit. I don't understand why it has to run in high fan noise mode all the time at this temperature. I mean, why is low fan noise mode even on the unit for if it requires high speed fan noise at 65 degrees???

What are InFocus engineers expectations for normal usage in homes, 55 degrees? Lower? I would bet that 65 degrees is lower than most homes thermostats.

If anybody has any ideas and/or advice, I am ALL ears. I just want to make sure my IN72 doesn't have a problem is all. The flickering was very evident the night before last, on BOTH HDMI and M1-D inputs (and it went on for hours) but last night, NO FLICKERING at all, NONE. The noise I'm hearing from the IN72 I have hung right now is exactly the same noise I heard from my original IN72.

Thanks for your interest/concern everybody,
George -bub

OOOps, I almost forgot...
There are a ton of positives with this projector. I don't want everyone or anybody to think I am not impressed with this this thing.
HCCV homemade screen
13 foot wide room, not light controlled by any means until nighttime
Screensize of about 90 inches diagonal
Some screendoor but not very noticeable and not a problem for me
I've never seen any rainbows (was afraid to even try to see them)
I DO notice what others have described as 'sheen' with the HCCV material
I watch DVD's over a Bravo D1 with the 1:1 pixel mapping settings and 48Hz
This is my first projector, been using Mits 55in 55411 for 3 years

The picture really is amazing on both DVD's and HDTV (via DN 622). Although, with HD material, it is obvious this projector does not have HD resolution but the image is still very good. The picture is clean and pure with very few annoyances (sheen on the HCCV material and some screendoor on bright scenes and white text -but I AM sitting closer than the recommended 2X). Black levels are very good and colors and skintones are reproduced accurately. The projector does a great job of recreating the 'movie experience' for my home, of course the Mits failed in that department even though it has a great picture. I have calibrated the DVD input using AVIA. I do have a new copy of DVE, but have never used it yet. I will be calibrating the HDMI input on Tuesday morning using the HDNet patterns.

Dogwood

04-09-06, 11:33 AM

George,

I am having the same noise issues as you are. The bottom line is that low power fan noise is only slightly improved over the 4805. What for me makes the noise more bothersome, is the fact that due to the smaller offset and the shorter throw I must mount the unit closer to the viewer's ears so that it seems even louder than the old 4805. I have made sure through menu changes and trial that the fan is in low speed. This particular aspect is very disapointing.

On the plus side color, black levels, and contrast out of the box are excellent, but if you are noise sensitive check it out first to see if it will be an issue for you.

Dave

bub

04-09-06, 11:36 AM

jkim5453

04-09-06, 11:47 AM

... I mean, why is low fan noise mode even on the unit for if it requires high speed fan noise at 65 degrees??? ...

Bub. I should get my IN76, soon, so I'll try to observe this as well. It will be table-top initially but will be ceiling-mounted in a couple of weeks.

What learned with my 4805 is that it's not so much the ambient temperature of the room, but more the air-flow that directly affects fan speed. For example, turning on the family room ceiling fan almost always caused the 4805 to cycle through fan speeds, so I learned not to run the ceiling fan when the PJ is on ;) . Without anything causing exhaust to blow back to the PJ, 4805 stays in low fan noise in low power mode.

Just a thought - check and see if your room has fairly constant airflow at about the height of the projector, or anything similar that might be causing the PJ exhaust to blow back to the PJ's exhaust side.

Dogwood

04-09-06, 11:48 AM

Steve,

Just checked out Ice Age from 1.3x screen width and SDE was no problem for me.

Dave

Dogwood

04-09-06, 11:54 AM

bub

04-09-06, 12:02 PM

Bub. I should get my IN76, soon, so I'll try to observe this as well. It will be table-top initially but will be ceiling-mounted in a couple of weeks.

What learned with my 4805 is that it's not so much the ambient temperature of the room, but more the air-flow that directly affects fan speed. For example, turning on the family room ceiling fan almost always caused the 4805 to cycle through fan speeds, so I learned not to run the ceiling fan when the PJ is on ;) . Without anything causing exhaust to blow back to the PJ, 4805 stays in low fan noise in low power mode.

Just a thought - check and see if your room has fairly constant airflow at about the height of the projector, or anything similar that might be causing the PJ exhaust to blow back to the PJ's exhaust side.

JKim,
The first night (the night I noticed the flickering) I did have the ceiling fan on low. It is about 5 feet from the projector. Last night, the ceiling fan was not on at all.

Both nights, my IN72 ran at high fan speed virtually the entire time. I don't think it has anything to do with my ceiling fan. I DO, however, think the low or high setting on the fan SHOULD have something to do with the ambient temperature of the room. If not that, then I can't figure out what it would have to do with.

I am in Arkansas and it is cool spring right now. My house is cool inside. If my IN72 will not run in low fan speed right now, it will NEVER run in low fan speed. Like I said, sometimes my living room is 60 degrees and the projector still runs in high fan speed. I can't imagine anybody keeping their home cooled below, say 65 or so, just so their projector makes minimal noise.

Like I said before, I have no idea why there is even a low fan speed on the projector if there is no temperature that it will operate at that would utilize that low fan speed. If 60 degrees ambient temperature causes high fan speed, then that is the fan speed it will always run at. My projector has plenty of space all around it for ventilation. I see absolutely no reason for it to run in high fan speed given the ambient room temperature it is operating in.

The projector starts in high speed at initial start up for maybe 20-30 seconds, then it powers down to low speed (whether this is the fan only or the fan and the bulb I'm not sure). It will only operate at this low speed for less than one minute, then ramps back up to high fan speed, even though bulb is on low power. If the projector's inside heats up that much in that short of time, I think there is a flaw somewhere. Either the flaw is in the design or the software that controls the fan speed. Something isn't right in my opinion. I have had two units, and both behaved exactly the same way.

I would just like to get to the bottom of this. What's going to happen when summer gets here and my air conditioner is struggling with the 100 degree heat of Arkansas summer???

George -bub

bub

04-09-06, 12:08 PM

George,

Yes it is running in low fan speed mounted on the ceiling. I can send it into high speed by selecting high power in the menu and the fan soon adjusts to a higher speed and higher noise level. After unchecking high power the fan returns to low speed after a little wait. I wish my sound meter went below 50db, I would love to measure the real world noise levels that I'm hearing. My room is at 76 degrees with the projector mounted 24" below the ceiling and about 5 feet from the back wall. I have 9 foot ceilings.

Dave

That news is disappointing to me to say the least. You say your room temperature is 76 degrees and your IN72 runs in low fan speed???

My room is 65 degrees (sometimes even a bit cooler) and my IN72 always runs in high fan speed.

My projector is mounted closer to my 8 foot ceiling than your is to your 9 foot ceiling but I feel there is plenty of room all around my projector. The center of my lens is 10 inches below the ceiling and 19 inches from the wall. Remember, the IN72 vents totally to the sides of the units. I have nothing even near the sides of my unit with the exception of the wall in back and the ceiling above.

I too have a sound meter but will not record noise below 60db.

I would be ecstatic to be able to run my IN72 in low fan speed mode. Any ideas what is going on with mine (I've had two and both refused to run in low fan speed)?

George -bub

Alimentall

04-09-06, 12:22 PM

as a trivial test, why not just put the projector on a table, listen to it, then just flip it over and see if the fan kicks in, then flip it over again and see if it shuts off?

I could, but it's mounted and I don't want to take it down, maybe I'll try it with the IN76. Besides, it's not like I can change it much. But mine is in the corner corner with sheetrock directly above and behind, so I'm sure that's amplifying the noise dramatically. Remember that in free space, there would be 4 times the space in which to radiate the sound. I might put some sound deadening above and behind if it doesn't look bad. But it's really not that bad.

jkim5453

04-09-06, 12:33 PM

George and Dave:

It looks like we're seeing two different behaviors with George's IN72 and Dave's IN76. I was under the impression the two are essentially on the same platform, but there maybe significant enough differences. It's also my understanding that the IN72 firmware may have been released a bit earlier than IN76's, so there may be some diferences there as well (but I don't know if firmware logic regulates the fan speed.)

George: it may be good to try to seek out specifically other IN72 owners to see if this is a general issue with that specific model. Comparing with IN76 fan behavior may not isolate a common cause. I hope you'll find the cause and solution.

When I receive my IN76, the only point of reference wrt fan noise I'll have is my 4805. I'm in Texas, and I keep my house between 75 and 78 - depending on the season. My 4805's fan activities is more consistent with what Dave is describing of his IN76 behavior, and all I'm hoping for is that the IN76 will be a tad bit quieter than 4805 when running in low power mode.

ZippyCat

04-09-06, 01:36 PM

I’ve had my IN76 for just over two weeks now and I think it great, however in my opinion the overall operating noise level is far from acceptable. As others have said, the projector initially start up loud, drops to what I would silent for a minute, then speeds up to a level that’s louder than my old Toshiba MT200 when it was in the high power mode. I do think that this is a problem with the IN7X series by judging other people comments, and therefore something Bob could look into. I would imaging this is something easily solved by a simple firmware upgrade (I hope).

Mupi

04-09-06, 02:39 PM

a simple solution would have been to use a bulb of lower
brightness and a fan of lower speed.
Like I said there is no point in having a 900 lumen bulb.
barring certain freaks who want to use 200" screen most are content with
92-100'. Also providing threads on the lens cover and giving the filter size
would have helped as we can remove the filter after an year may be.
Just poor engineering. Dont they know that people use filters. why the heck
an oval lens cover?

I bet Infocus will never ever get the fan issue fixed.

Dkolacz

04-09-06, 02:39 PM

If this is the case, I will be very disappointed. I have been waiting for the IN76 to come out and get good reviews. Low fan noise is #1 on my list of criteria for getting a new projector. After 1 year, my 4805 sounded like a jet engine in low power mode. Hopefully Infocus can get things worked out with a firmware upgrade. How could something as oddly obvious as this pass QC on their new line?

I’ve had my IN76 for just over two weeks now and I think it great, however in my opinion the overall operating noise level is far from acceptable. As others have said, the projector initially start up loud, drops to what I would silent for a minute, then speed up to a level that’s louder than my old Toshiba MT200 when it was in the high power mode. I do think that this is a problem with the IN7X series by judging other people comments, and therefore something Bob could look into. I would imaging this is something easily solved by a simple firmware upgrade (I hope).

Dogwood

04-09-06, 02:40 PM

George,

I never would have beleived that my unit was in low speed, if I hadn't caused it to ramp up to high speed via the menu, the low is that noisy. I thought it was always running in high before the high power test. And yes my room is 76 degrees, it has it's own dedicated central A/C system, so the temp stays very constant. I wish I knew what would kick yours into low fan speed. It probally makes no difference, but just for the record I have the IN76 not the IN72.

Dave

swithey

04-09-06, 04:00 PM

Steve,

Just checked out Ice Age from 1.3x screen width and SDE was no problem for me.

Dave
Dave,

Thanks, that's very good to know.

Now, I'm a little concerned about noise level. I have listened to a IN74 in low fan mode and it was acceptable to me. However, if the IN76 might switche into high speed (even in low power mode), it will be too loud. When I heard the IN74 in high-fan mode, it was rather loud.

My HT room is very similar to yours. My ceilings are 10' -- so that puts the projector a little over 3' from the ceiling. I plan to have the A/C thermostat in that room -- so it will be easy to keep cool. I even have the return air-duct just above the projector to pull out any heat that might collect at ceiling level.

BTW -- great job on your HT!

bubbawilly

04-09-06, 05:09 PM

bubbawilly (you are very close to having a great nik there),
When you say, "Sounds like your unit is suffering from more than a lamp problem." What exactly do you mean?

What I meant was that you may have a problem with your fan, in addition to the lamp. Bob stated that the unit should not automatically switch into high fan mode, when ceiling mounted, yet yours does.

First, let's determine if we're on the same page. When you are experiencing the loud fan noise, can you manually switch the unit into high fan mode? If you can, is it louder still? Like I mentioned earlier, most projector's fans run faster (louder) in ceiling mount mode, but that is not necessarily the same as their high fan mode. As an example, my Panasonic 900 is nearly silent in desk mode. When switched into ceiling mode, the noise increases about 50%, but it is still reasonable. When I switch it to high fan mode, the noise increases about 50% again, and then it is definitely distracting. Of course Panasonic's marketing hype about the fan being silent refers to desk mode. Otherwise the unit is not what anyone with normal hearing would call silent, but it is not distracting except in high fan mode.

It's definitely starting to sound like InFocus's statements about a "quieter" fan apply only to desk mode, otherwise, all bets are off. I'm glad that I didn't jump on the IN76. If these units run that loud in ceiling mode at low elevations, I'd hate to hear what they sound like at 5800'.

ihavecookie

04-09-06, 05:15 PM

Just built my frame with the HCCV material. Mounted my brand new IN72 with a premiere wall mount.

I have lamp flicker, for lack of a better description. In high power, the image is solid but in low power I get flickering of the image, and I mean a lot of flickering. Maybe 20 every 15 seconds. If I switch to high power, it stops. When I switch back to low power, it is ok for a couple of seconds then back to flickering.

I'm bummed about it, for sure.

Does anybody have any ideas? I see Bob just posted, you there Bob? Any ideas for me?

George -bub

Hey bub. I have an IN72 as well with the lamp flicker. Not only that, my unit has stopped working totally. I have about 12 hours on it. The only thing I can do is turn it on and get the startup screen. I can't even turn it off (Used both the remote and on unit power button) or get the menu to come up? It's a good unit, but I am having some major problems here. I have mounted it to my ceiling and have component and composite inputs going to the unit. Like I said, it worked for 12 hours or so, then KA-POOT. I will call Infocus on Monday to see how this is going to play out. Any suggestions in the meantime?

Mupi

04-09-06, 06:37 PM

If all the units were manufactured in US with strict quality control instead of making them in some island by some idiots all this QA issues wont happen.

The only way life can get back to normal in US is when this off shore crap ends for good.

Sure it is cheap when you get work done by a bunch of pin heads with no quality control.
It is not only in FP, it is every where.

Dan Hitchman

04-09-06, 08:06 PM

I wouldn't automatically call people overseas "pin heads," but I would like to see design and manufacturing come back to the U.S. We're shooting ourselves in the foot with all this outsourcing crap. It cannot sustain itself much longer. You destroy the middle class and the economy will go in the crapper.

Dan

cavu

04-09-06, 08:08 PM

If all the units were manufactured in US with strict quality control instead of making them in some island by some idiots all this QA issues wont happen.Name anything of value that is actually manufactured in production quantities the USA.....

.... I'm waiting ....

Yeah. Neither can I.
The only way life can get back to normal in US is when this off shore crap ends for good.Don't hold your breath. I suspect you aren't old enough to remember "normal". WYSIWYG! That won't change in any direction that is going to make you happy.

Alimentall

04-09-06, 08:10 PM

Name anything of value that is actually manufactured in production quantities the USA......

Cars? Homes? Food? Airplanes? Ships? Harleys?

BrandonJF

04-09-06, 08:15 PM

[QUOTE]If all the units were manufactured in US with strict quality control instead of making them in some island by some idiots all this QA issues wont happen.

Yep. Nothing made in the U.S. has ever had any QA issues. Ever. I don't think there has ever been a recall of an American made product (like, for example, trucks spontaneously combusting).

Being anti-outsourcing is one thing, but inferring that QA issues disappear if everything were brought into the US is extremely optimistic. Profit margins and cost cutting don't magically disappear just because something is 100% made in America.

bubbawilly

04-09-06, 08:39 PM

The biggest problem with outsourced products is that not only do the manufacturers turn over design and production, but they turn over QC as well. Can you say fox watching the hen house?

Of course, the OEM that designs and builds a product believes that it will function perfectly. It's up to their customer to verify that, and all too few do. After all, they already cut those costs out of the system.

Mupi

04-09-06, 08:50 PM

but how come owners of other PJ's never ever complain about fan noise?
They also get their stuff made offshore. Infocus is infamous for the fan noise.

kevivoe

04-09-06, 09:05 PM

but how come owners of other PJ's never ever complain about fan noise?
They also get their stuff made offshore. Infocus is infamous for the fan noise.

I am reading quite a bit about KA POOT IN72's, high fan speed mode and too high noise and as an owner of an IN76 I am getting nervous. I have close to 20 hours on the IN76. I've been up the ladder 3 times to "listen" and move to high fan mode. It gets louder but I always go back to low fan and of course low power. So far for me no issues.

I am watching like a hawk now ... looking for the slightest issue. I would not tolerate the performance of the IN72 I have read about.

k

Mupi

04-09-06, 09:08 PM

wnen I say made offshore I mean those made using cheap labor without any
supervision. Most of the cotton shirts I wear are not made in US, even Dockers pants are not made in US but they have very strict quality control.
Infocus has to enforce some strict QC or try to learn how other manufacturers
are able to make quieter fans.

bub

04-09-06, 09:33 PM

Even though I have issues with my IN72, I am confident in both the product and its value AND the company and its commitment to their product.

In my opinion, no product is perfect, it doesn't matter where or who manufactures it.

George -bub

yiorgo1313

04-09-06, 09:43 PM

I have had the In76 running for 60 hours so far no issues with fan noises or lamp flicker. .If compared to the xbox 360 running, the projector is a saint in the noise department.

topr

04-09-06, 10:29 PM

We have three IN72's, one IN74, and one IN76 in our store...all have around 200 hours on them and zero issues with the fans or fan noise. I have installed three for customers that have been in the field for almost two weeks...no call backs yet. I will keep everyone posted if any issues arise.

hightechredneck

04-09-06, 11:04 PM

I haven't checked out this thread for a few weeks because I have been busy building a shadow box/speaker base for my HT setup. I am still thrilled with my IN76 in all aspects of its performance. (see my previous posts) I would like to point out that in general, people only bitch when they're unhappy, and so all the negative posts about fan noise, bulb flicker, three fingered children building projectors and the like, IS BUNK! For every gripe out there, hundreds of satisfied owners (lucky me included) have experienced no problems.
The truth is that cooling fans make noise and projectors make heat. Place the projector near the ceiling and a pool of hot air accumulates (much like some of the posts found herein). To keep your bulb from burning up, the manufacturer thoughtfully includes a variable speed fan to cool things off, and then y'all bitch about the noise. Either pony up the extra 6 grand and buy the new Sony FP, or put the 76 in a "hush box" or outside your veiwing room. BTW, do any of watch the projector with audio? Sheesh.....
As to outsourcing - I'll bet you no one posting here could take three grand and buy all the parts, do the engineering required, and build a projector half as good. If it could be done cheaper and better DIY, people would already be doing it. Besides, the 3k projector likely actually cost IF about 1.5k to build. (I'm in the AV business and 30-40 pt dealer margins are common.) Assume it costs IF 1.5k to build, and they want to make 20% margin (you didn't expect them to undertake a multi-million dollar venture for no profit, did you?) now your PJ is up to 1.8k. Now factor in distributor and dealer margins, and you arrive at 3k (less discounts which are a hit to retailers margins) for a projector which is still better than anything else at this price point. Frankly, I'm amazed that IF can procure chassis, optics, DMD, input boards, video circuitry, scaling chips, fan, color wheel, remote, and packaging for that kind of money.
I'm feel bad for the folks who might have got a unit with issues, but please understand that many manufacturers consider a 1% failure rate acceptable. Sure they could get that failure rate down to .25%, but is it worth doing if you have to double your production costs to get there? (As a point of reference, we still fly American made shuttles into space with a 2% failure rate - roughly a hundred missions and 2 losses) It's a projector - not a defibrulator for crying out loud.
If you want to insure yourself against undue headaches, then pay a little more and buy from a local, reputable dealer. If you have a problem they will be a lot more interested in supporting you, as you in the end support them with your business.
I would again encourage anyone looking for a big beautiful image for under 3k to check out the IN76. I own one myself, and recommend it to my customers who place their trust in my reputation and expertise. I would never ever recommend a product simply for a profit margin, because I profit from every thing I sell. I can never get an exchange on a bad reputation. I could go on and on, but instead I think I'll check out some awesome looking HD on my 100" screen (which looks better than any 42" plasmer tv I've ever installed, and for less money.) Lighten up, people.

microbiologist

04-09-06, 11:55 PM

I was wanting to know if anyone has personal experience with the IN 76 and the SP7210.

Can anyone comment on differences in performance? Yes, I know that there is a price differnetial. I am trying to decide which one to buy, and the cost is not an issue. I only want to get a handle on discernable performance differences.

Thanks to all my new acquaintances on the AVS forum.

ZippyCat

04-10-06, 08:10 AM

Yes, there may well be hundreds of satisfied customers out there already with the IN76 (me included), but the fan noise is a just gripe. I would say it’s either a faulty component which results in the projector misreading the internal temperature, or the threshold set within the firmware is too low. Too put it crudely; the projector starts with an arbitrary noise level of ‘3’, drops to a noise level of ‘1’ after 10 seconds, then increases to a noise level of ‘2’ after a further minute. To me this implies something is not entirely correct as what is the point of the level ‘1’ setting for the fan if its only used for less than a minute; surely the projector may as well just drop to level ‘2’ after the 10 seconds – food for thought.

BrandonJF

04-10-06, 08:22 AM

I would say it’s either a faulty component which results in the projector misreading the internal temperature, or the threshold set within the firmware is too low.

It had sounded like the fan noise issue is only occurring when the projector is turned upside down. Is that not the case? Does anyone have an issue with the noise when the projector isn't upside-down?

NoThru22

04-10-06, 08:26 AM

bub

04-10-06, 08:49 AM

I have no real complaints about the fan noise either. I wish it were quieter but it's nothing I would say Infocus is at fault for. It's a system that needs airflow and it makes the sounds of air flowing.

There is a difference between saying, "I HATE how noisy all the IN72's are!" and "I wonder if my IN72 is not functioning correctly and is noisier than it is supposed to be."

What is happening is not uncommon. A few are experiencing a possible problem and a few who do NOT have a problem just can't understand what they are fussing about. Try to imagine spending $1299 on the projector, $200 on the screen, $100 on the mount, $100 on cabling, $100 on the 'chosen' DVD player, $50 on the ND2 filter, $50 on the framing material, $35 on hardware plus all the time and effort to put this whole project 'together' and you might start to understand the concern some of us have when our projectors fans run in high speed even when we have our projectors setup in low power mode or our projector's lamp flickers instead of putting out a solid image.

I was, and am still, very excited about my projector. I've been wanting to create a mini home theater for quite some time. I had focused on the 4805 but always found a reason not to purchase. When all the news of the IN72 was starting to come out, 2 digital inputs, more appealing appearance, lower noise level -even Bob Williams stated the IN72 in high power was quieter than the 4805 in low power, no lamp flickering problem -remember many 4805 owners complained about this until the software update corrected it, I decided to buy. But, now I have a couple of issues, flickering and high noise from the fan even when in low power mode. I would just like to make sure my projector is functioning correctly.

I don't think it is unusual to post in these forums when you are having issues.

Are my issues something that, in your words, "...nothing I would say Infocus is at fault for." I have a right to question the manufacturer about or bring to the table on these forums? You betcha! If InFocus is not at fault, who do I turn to for assistance?

My lamp is flickering, did it again last night although not for an entire hour like the night before, but it did do it for a few moments. And, my IN72's fan runs in high speed all the time, even when I select low power mode. I don't think either of these events should be happening at all. It is a brand new projector with only a few hours on the bulb.

I will report back after InFocus tech support contacts me, I left a message over the weekend, today hopefully.

Luck all,
George -bub

BrandonJF

04-10-06, 09:46 AM

I don't think it is unusual to post in these forums when you are having issues.

Not at all. I get the whole argument that we hear more negative reports than positive, but that isn't really the fault of the people posting the negatives. If there are people out there that aren't having the issues, it would help to know that.

More than one person has encountered the issue. I think it's a little extreme to call any issue (flickering, fan noise) "bunk". We all know there is going to be fan noise. At the same time, one of Infocus' selling points is that it's quiet (didn't they use some marketing blurb like "Whisper Quiet"?) . I'd imagine that sets some high expectations.

As long as it's as quiet as my Screenplay 5700, I'll be ok. However, I am expecting it to at least be that quiet. I will be slightly disappointed if my new projector is louder than my old one.

bubbawilly

04-10-06, 09:52 AM

As long as it's as quiet as my Screenplay 5700, I'll be ok. However, I am expecting it to at least be that quiet. I will be slightly disappointed if my new projector is louder than my old one.

Let us know how it compares.

ZippyCat

04-10-06, 12:48 PM

With regards to Bob saying the projector is quieter in the high powered mode than the SP4805 was in the low powered mode does imply to me that my IN76 is not functioning correctly. My old Toshiba MT200 was probably on a par to the noise levels of the SP4805 (all be it probably slightly quieter), however over the weekend when I installed my old Toshiba at a friend’s house, it dawned on me how loud my IN76 is. I would go as far as to say I perceive my IN76 to be twice as loud as my old MT200, which in my opinion is far from acceptable. I’m not complaining as these sort of things happen to early the adopters of new products. I just hope this is something InFocus will identify as a glitch that can be easily resolved with a firmware upgrade of swap out of parts. Other than that the projector is fantastic, so thumbs up to InFocus otherwise.

bub

04-10-06, 01:01 PM

What I meant was that you may have a problem with your fan, in addition to the lamp. Bob stated that the unit should not automatically switch into high fan mode, when ceiling mounted, yet yours does.

First, let's determine if we're on the same page. When you are experiencing the loud fan noise, can you manually switch the unit into high fan mode? If you can, is it louder still? Like I mentioned earlier, most projector's fans run faster (louder) in ceiling mount mode, but that is not necessarily the same as their high fan mode. As an example, my Panasonic 900 is nearly silent in desk mode. When switched into ceiling mode, the noise increases about 50%, but it is still reasonable. When I switch it to high fan mode, the noise increases about 50% again, and then it is definitely distracting. Of course Panasonic's marketing hype about the fan being silent refers to desk mode. Otherwise the unit is not what anyone with normal hearing would call silent, but it is not distracting except in high fan mode.

It's definitely starting to sound like InFocus's statements about a "quieter" fan apply only to desk mode, otherwise, all bets are off. I'm glad that I didn't jump on the IN76. If these units run that loud in ceiling mode at low elevations, I'd hate to hear what they sound like at 5800'.

bubbawilly,
It is hard for me to describe the sound difference between high power in the setup menu and the sound I hear from my IN72 all the time. Here is what is happening to the best of my ability to describe it.

I turn the unit on, it ramps up to a very high level of sound (we can arbitrarily give it a 5, being the loudest it ever gets).
After about 10-15 seconds, it ramps down to about a 2, being the quietist it ever gets.
After about 10-15 seconds of 2, it ramps back up to a 5 (now, it might only be a 4.5 here as I am not 100% sure that the two noises are exactly the same as there is that few seconds of 2 in between the two noises making it difficult for me to be sure they are exactly the same level).
If I go into the setup menu and select high power, I do notice a different pitch noise for a second or two, then it appears to me to be the exact same noise I hear when running in low power mode.
Now, if I go into the setup menu again and de-select high power, I immediately hear the projector ramp back down to 2, but only for a few seconds, then back up to 5 again.
It always runs at this 5, never at 2 for more than a couple of seconds. (although, once the night before last the projector, while right in the middle of a movie, it DID ramp down to a 2, but only very briefly).

And yes, I can hear the fan at 5 and 2 while watching movies. The projector is louder than I had anticipated especially considering all the 'whisper quiet' and 'I can't hear mine from 4 feet away' comments. I feel very sorry for all the 4805 owners out there if the IN72 is indeed quieter in high power mode than the 4805 is in low power mode AND I am extremely happy I DID NOT buy a 4805.

I will keep reporting back on what is going on with my IN72 and InFocus tech,
George -bub

As an aside, when I select high power in the setup menu, I notice a brief flash of light but then it seems like the light level is exactly as it was in low power mode. How noticeable is the difference between low power and high power as far as light output goes? I am using the Hoya ND2 filter (dang, got to tape it on the projector to get it to stay there).

PLB

04-10-06, 01:01 PM

At first I thought, all this speculation about the projector making more noise upside down must be bunk. How would it know if it were upside down so as to speed up the motor? Then I remembered that the IN76 apparently changes its display when inverted. This minor feature was praised by several posters. So it is possible that its firmware senses its orientation and adjusts the fan speed. Perhaps this is a bug?

If I'm correct in this speculation I think it would be appropriate for InFocus to give me a free IN76.

BrandonJF

04-10-06, 01:12 PM

So it is possible that its firmware senses its orientation and adjusts the fan speed. Perhaps this is a bug?

Maybe it thinks it's falling and is trying to fly.

bub

04-10-06, 01:41 PM

I have the IN72 and have fooled around in the menu turning off/on certain items like Auto Ceiling, Auto Power, Ceiling, Reverse etc...

Nothing changes the sound of my fan, with the exception of a brief change to low power after cycling through high power mode and back to low power mode.

George -bub

NoThru22

04-10-06, 01:53 PM

Are my issues something that, in your words, "...nothing I would say Infocus is at fault for." I have a right to question the manufacturer about or bring to the table on these forums? You betcha! If InFocus is not at fault, who do I turn to for assistance?
I was addressing the comments of the people running the IN76 in ceiling mode that were complaining about the usual noise level, not people like you with problems or concerns.

I was posting more to the people on the fence about buying the projector that now think it's some sort of noise monster. My Toshiba MT700 was one.

If your IN72 keeps ramping up and down with the noise, then it really is like my MT700 was.
Maybe it thinks it's falling and is trying to fly.
Brilliant.

billymac

04-10-06, 03:05 PM

wow, this thread has had some challenges while i was on vacation! so much negativity and stuff....wow.

bub, sure wish you had a 4805, because the $64,000 question is:

is the IN72 in low power mode (ceiling mounted) louder than the 4805 in high power mode (ceiling mounted)?

and an even better question is, is the IN76 in lower power mode ceiling mounted louder than the 4805 in high power mode ceiling mounted?

i was ready to buy one of these this week, but until i have those two questions answered, i'm holding off.

i really wish some more owners would chime in here...

and mupi, no offense i suppose, but man, who poo'd in your wheaties?

jjw350z

04-10-06, 05:38 PM

but how come owners of other PJ's never ever complain about fan noise?
They also get their stuff made offshore.

Because there are TONS of these infocus products out there
Because the majority of the people here are whiney babies, you included here. Myself as well.
EVERYTHING is made outside of the US in this sub-3.5k market .. get over it.

Infocus is infamous for the fan noise.

They are also famous for high-lumen/low-dollar projectors, that come out of the box looking spectacular.

Either pay more money and get into the high-dollar "holy grail of silence" projectors or just stop this.

HiHoStevo

04-10-06, 05:58 PM

.....eh....

actually a lot of the High Dollar projectors are OEM'd from those same overseas sources...

bubbawilly

04-10-06, 07:01 PM

Either pay more money and get into the high-dollar "holy grail of silence" projectors or just stop this.

I find it very helpful to know from actual users that the fans aren't nearly as 'silent' as they've been hyped to be, and perhaps, far from it.

You've got to love how this forum sorts through all of the marketing mumbo jumbo and gets to the bottom of things. To be honest, I have to wonder when some so vehemently object to the truth as the actual owners see it. :confused:

bthorn9435

04-10-06, 07:14 PM

Just for anyone curious the HD72 is actually a very quiet projector!!!
I base this on having previously owned the Infocus X1 which was about as quiet as Dennis Miller giving a one hour monologue.

If noise is a primary consideration in your purchase you may want to check that one out, of course it may not be as good as the IN76 but that has yet to be determined.

P.S. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF CHRIST POST MORE REVIEWS OF THE IN76.

BrandonJF

04-10-06, 07:21 PM

If noise is a primary consideration in your purchase you may want to check that one out, of course it may not be as good as the IN76 but that has yet to be determined.

Is all I know is the IN76 is jet black. That's all I care about. See, if you have a white projector, light is going to bounce off the screen, back to the white HD72, then back to the screen, etc..., etc... until your picture is so washed out it disappears. The INxx series, however, are black and will absorb all the light shooting back at it.

I'm relatively new to this forum, but that's what I've gathered. :cool:

jvos

04-10-06, 08:58 PM

For those who seem to feel that running the INxx in ceiling mode is causing it to run the fan in high power mode, why don't you simply just invert the pj into table top orientation and hold it up by your ceiling mount. If it still sounds the same (i.e. high power mode), it means you likely have airflow issues which have nothing to do with the pj. If it is quieter, then I'd suggest returning the pj as defective. I personally wouldn't keep a nearly $3K piece of equipment if I even remotely suggested it had a problem.

BTW, don't be too surprised at all this. Early adopters typically run into issues. The 4805 thread was full of as many dire issues as glowing reviews early on. Mass production often has to be tweaked to meet the performance of the "gold standard" that engineers like Bob experience in the lab.

That is one reason I always wait several months - I don't want Rev 1 of anything.

kevivoe

04-10-06, 09:41 PM

See message #1385 of this thread for my mini-review. I have allot to do over the next 2 days so I won't be able to report on the HDMI input until later.

I DO NOT have excessive fan noise on my IN76. It has never gone into high fan mode and it is inverted and ceiling mounted. I am running low lamp mode.

Some more adjustments.

Sharpness is set to "sharper"
Contrast now set to "45"
Brightness set to "40"
Theme set to "CRT"

I find the sharper setting provides much more dimension to the image.

Now about screen samples.

I used to think Carada BW was no different than Stewart ST 130. That was with a 1024x768 projector. Now with the IN76 the 130 looks a bit better. I would almost say my Carada BW sample yellowed a bit over the last 8 weeks. Firehawk shows no advantage to all my guests. They don't like the dim appearance. The blacks are black enough with the IN76. Doree in Finding Nemo has a very black stripe right next to a very yellow tail. Looks fantastic.

Almost all my guests want me to leave my painted mix on the screen wall. It makes the 130 almost invisible on the wall. I am looking for a "high definition" screen. I don't like the "film like" diffusion properties of some of these screens.

k

jkim5453

04-10-06, 11:20 PM

...I played around with the gamma settings menu. You have 5 choices I think, called CRT, film, video, PC, and bright room. I prefer PC, CRT then film in that order. PC and CRT seem to have better blacks than film. PC provides a bright image, film a dim theater type image. It came defaulted to film...

What screen do you have?

billymac

04-10-06, 11:30 PM

Hey, a couple things I'd really like to hear from those of you who speaking of your INXX purchase is, what did you have before you bought it, and would you but it again if given the chance?

Jim McC

04-11-06, 02:50 AM

Does the screen size calculator at Infocus.com seem to be accurate for the IN76?

kevivoe

04-11-06, 08:22 AM

What screen do you have?

I am currently shooting onto a DIY mix I developed to match Studio TEK 130. It is a combination of Hirshfields white, Modern Masters Pearl, Modern Masters extender and a satin poly. Most audiences since November have not been able to distinguish between it and my 130 sample. I also have Carada and Screen Innovations with Da-Lite on the way. I am looking for a non-diffusing white surface for better HDTV sharpness. Nothing to date beats my mix but stuff is similar. The 130 is diffusing however and I'd perfer not to have that.

The screen calculator is accurate. One does not need to follow screen calculators to the 2nd decimal place however. I should have my viewing surface at 14 inches down from the ceiling but I have mounted the PJ in such a way as to only have the top of the viewing surface 9.5 inches. A simple tilt with the Chief Universal mount and I am done. This shows approx. 1/8" distortion from top to bottom that is difficult to see from any distance. If you have a 10 foot diagonal I doubt you focus on the 1/8" in the corner.

Forgot to mention that back in the 1024x768 PJ days the Carada BW screen looked very similar to the Studio Tek 130. Now with the sharper IN76 I can see a bit better performance from the 130. If Stewart Film made a non-diffusing screen I may buy it. There also is a slight difference in color from the two. If you had a full screen of either material I am sure you'd be happy.

k

JeffKB

04-11-06, 12:57 PM

Just wanted to share some initial thoughts and observations about the IN76. I've put around 20 hours on it but my setup is not complete yet. I'm overshooting a 112" image on to a 92" DIY HCCV screen (I'm awaiting a stretcher bar shipment so I can build the new 112" screen). I'm replacing a 4805, so this mini review will give my impressions of the IN76 compared to that projector.

This may be stating the obvious, but it's an important point so I'll state it anyway - the resolution increase allows you to sit much closer than was ever possible with the 4805. The result is a much more immersive and enjoyable experience. This is by far the biggest improvement over the 4805 and was the main reason why I traded up to 720p in the first place. As so often happens on the forum, the SDE thing was overblown and an unnecessary cause for concern IMO. At 1.5x width, I don't see any trace of SDE at all. Even white text looks completely solid, which was never the case with the 4805 unless I backed up to around 2.5x width. The InFocus recommendation of 1.3x width looks pretty accurate here. That's probably the cusp of where SDE starts becoming noticeable on the IN76 - but only if you look for it and only on certain content (i.e. text, white backgrounds, etc).

In addition to the obvious SDE improvements, the extra resolution provides for a smoother and less digital look. Even though SDE wasn't always visible from 2x width on the 4805, I was often aware of pixellation - of the fact that discrete pixels were making up the image. This was most common in crowd scenes, an example of which is from Schindler's List, where Schindler is addressing his workers in the factory after the end of the war. On the 4805 the small individual heads looked blocky. No such effect on the IN76. The same scene on that projector looked smooth and natural.

Next, contrast definitely looks like it's been improved. The IN76 is MUCH brighter than my 4805 (1300 hours on lamp), yet the black level actually looks a little better. This difference doesn't hit you over the head, but it's clearly there if you look for it.

Brightness is also excellent, and although I can't be absolutely sure, the IN76 seems noticeably brighter than the 4805 was when it had a new lamp. The IN76 had no problem driving a 112" diagonal 1.1 gain screen and still produced a snappy image after I slapped an ND2 filter in place. Speaking of which, yes I would have liked to see a threaded housing for the filter, but come on. If you're smart enough and handy enough to install a front projector and screen, you can certainly solve the dilemma of how to use an ND2 filter with the new projectors. A couple little strips of masking tape did the trick for me. Double sided tape would probably work better yet. How about gluing some spongy rubber or the like to the filter threads to allow it to grip the PJ lens housing? You get the idea... ;)

The other noticeable improvement over the 4805 is focus. It was fairly common for the 4805 to suffer from mild focus uniformity issues. On mine I could never get all 4 corners completely in focus, although it was very close. This was never noticeable during actual viewing, but was fairly easily detected by rotating the menu around the 4 corners. The IN76 (at least mine) is razor sharp in all 4 corners and has excellent focal uniformity. It also has no brightness uniformity issues I could detect - an all white screen is evenly lit from corner to corner, top to bottom.

Noise. Ahhhh....the $64,000 question. What's the scoop on the noise level. I'll cut to the chase and say I'm mildly disappointed here. Perhaps expectations were raised inappropriately high and reality couldn't compete, I don't know. I'll say this, with the 4805 the noise never really bothered me and was masked by the soundtrack most of the time, but if it was an extremely quiet scene and I listened for it, it was clearly there. The same exact statement holds true for the IN76. I imagine it also holds true for just about every other projector out there as well however. Comparing the noise level between the 2 projectors is difficult - aural memory is a tricky thing and not always trustworthy. I plan on remounting my 4805 in a day or so and maybe that will put things in perspective more. One things for sure - with the 4805 the high pitched noise of color wheel whine was more prominent. With the IN76, it's all low pitched air and fan noise.

Here's what happens with the fan - at least in my setup. As mentioned previously, it initially starts high on powerup and drops to low almost immediately. It stays that way for 5 minutes, at which point it goes thru a succession of small increases a minute or so apart until it reaches its final speed about 10 minutes or so in. It stays that way for the duration of the viewing. If you switch to high power, there is an immediate, but almost imperceptible increase in fan speed, followed by a more noticeable increase 30 seconds to a minute later. This second jump is larger than any single increase in low power mode. The net result is that there is a clear difference in final fan speed between low and high lamp mode. I would consider the fan speed in high lamp to be fairly loud and probably too loud to consider using high lamp mode in actual practice.

The bottom line is I would consider the final fan speed in low power to be acceptable, but not whisper quiet or barely audible. As such however, it is not a major issue for me, just a disappointment. I'm currently bothered far more by the sheen on my HCCV screen. That had ceased to be an issue with the 4805, but the new lamp and increased brightness of the IN76 has brought that artifact front and center. Since getting the HCCV, I've changed my walls, ceiling, and floor to a dark brown and can no longer distinguish any contrast improvements provided by a grey screen. My new screen will be matte white.

One last thing. I had mentioned offset in one of my prior posts and I wanted to followup with that here. I understand the concept of fixed offset. I am very familiar with how to calculate it and what it means. Yet I never actually bothered to verify the accuracy of the stated offset with the 4805. With the IN76 however, I have a tighter install and was planning it around the offset spec being accurate. In my case at least, I'm finding the offset is less than stated and unfortunately it's causing me some installation headaches.

My screen height is 55", so based on the stated 15.59% offset, the distance from the center of lens to top of screen should be 8.57". It's not. I'm getting 4.75" or an offset of 8.6%. Measuring the screen, I'm squared horizontally - the left and right height match exactly. I am 1/8" from being squared vertically. The extra width is on the bottom however, meaning I'd have to raise the image on the wall even more to get perfect geometry (decreasing the actual offset even further). I'm about as high as I want to be though.

Just thought I'd throw that out there to see what other owners are finding.

Ohhh...almost forgot. Do I have regrets and would I buy again? No regrets, would certainly buy again. I can't wait to get my screen finished and start enjoying some movies. :)

swithey

04-11-06, 02:21 PM

Ohhh...almost forgot. Do I have regrets and would I buy again? No regrets, would certainly buy again. I can't wait to get my screen finished and start enjoying some movies. :)
Jeff,

Great job on the review as it addresses nearly every concern mentioned in the thread. I'm strongly considering this unit and your comments really helped. It's too bad the noise level could not have been a little lower. I know it's better than the older unit(s) but I guess (as stated earlier), sometimes they save that "true" silent feature for the more costly projectors. Hey, they gotta have something to entice people to spend more ;)

agro1

04-11-06, 02:23 PM

I'm sure some will bark that your review is not very "professional", but personally, I appreciate it and the fact that you address many of the real world issues with this new product. I will be ordering an IN76 in a week or so and like you, will be upgrading from the 4805. Did you buy yours directly from IF ?
My question however is about the screen....
I ws going to go with the HCCV, but it seems the increased lumens of the IN76 make this a bad idea. Would you suggest the DaLite grey Da-Mat High Contrast (0.8) or the regular white Da-Mat (1.1) ??

EDIT:
Also, I want to use the 133" screen (65x116)...do you think that's too big for the IN76 ??

billymac

04-11-06, 02:34 PM

jeff, awesome thanks for the review.

would the sheen you're speaking of be apparent on a high-power screen? i'm having a hard time remembering what hccv is. i have two screens currently, a high contrast matte white, and a high power...both da-lite model b's. just wondering which would be better suited for the in76.

one last question about the noise. is the low power noise level of the in76 as loud or louder than the noise of the high power of the 4805? or were you just saying that the fan noise of low power mode on the in76 is about equivelant or close to equivelant of lower power on the 4805?

/edit

yeah what agro said. i would like some advice on screens too. i just have the two right now though and was wanting to get just a matte white, but i can't really swing it right now..

Jonathan DA

04-11-06, 04:55 PM

I tried a search but didn't see a match...has anyone achieved 1:1 pixel mapping with this projector using the HDMI or VGA inputs and an HTPC outputting 1280x720?

billymac

04-11-06, 05:10 PM

i'm dying to hear that as well, and have already asked twice in this thread. nobody has responded. it doesn't list 1280x720 as an accetable data compatability mode in it's spec sheet, which really makes me wonder. if we don't get an answer, i'm almost ready to get my hand slapped and post a seperate thread asking. i can't imagine though that it wouldn't, but you have to wonder since it's not listed.

agro1

04-11-06, 05:11 PM

I tried a search but didn't see a match...has anyone achieved 1:1 pixel mapping with this projector using the HDMI or VGA inputs and an HTPC outputting 1280x720?

I'm also interested to know which DVD players people are using with this new PJ. Is it better to use any old DVD player (component connection) and let the IN76 do the upscaling to 720p, or use a good DVD player and upconvert to 720p using HDMI ??

JeffKB

04-11-06, 05:21 PM

My question however is about the screen....
I ws going to go with the HCCV, but it seems the increased lumens of the IN76 make this a bad idea. Would you suggest the DaLite grey Da-Mat High Contrast (0.8) or the regular white Da-Mat (1.1) ??

EDIT:
Also, I want to use the 133" screen (65x116)...do you think that's too big for the IN76 ??
Hi agro1,

HCCV is a fine screen material but it does have some compromises, chief of which is sheen. It's caused by the reflective coating applied to the grey base. This issue is common to many gain screens, although HCCV seems to be a little worse than some other material in this regard. The key is that you don't want an overly bright image with the HCCV. It emphasizes the sheen. Since you're using a larger screen than me, you'll be getting lower FT-L and the sheen should be less noticeable than in my setup.

On HCCV vs matte white:
I've tried lots of samples, both in a light controlled room (i.e. dark walls, ceiling, and floor) and a non light controlled room (white walls), and my opinion is that it's worth dealing with the HCCV's sheen if you have a white or light colored room. There is a distinct and definite edge in contrast performance with the HCCV vs a white screen in that environment. I'd rather deal with the sheen than the washout you get with a white screen. On the other hand, if you have a dark colored room I've found that black levels are virtually indistinguishable between the screen materials. In that environment there's no need to go with the HCCV and deal with sheen.

On HCCV vs HC DaMat
I never really liked the HC DaMat and found it just too dark for my liking. I hear they may have changed the formulation however, so make sure you get the latest samples. Since it's negative gain, IMO it's really not suitable for 133" inches. May look OK to start, but probably too dim after your lamp starts to lose brightness.

The key thing is to get your PJ first and then get your screen samples and see what you like. For DaLite, make sure you call them and ask for large samples, otherwise you may only get a 6" square. Try to get at least 1 - 2 sq ft. Make sure you project at the image size you plan on using when testing the samples. Also, you may want to spend $20 - $30 and get an ND2 filter. That will allow you to get an idea of what your image will look like with an older lamp. That's definitely a concern with the screen size you plan on using.

Screen material and brightness is a personal preference thing, so I can't really say what material will be right for you or if that screen size is too big. I would just be patient, try out some screen samples and screen sizes, and go from there. Personally speaking, if I was planning a screen that big with this PJ, I'd be looking at gain screens. The IN76 is bright, but 133" is a BIG screen! :)

ssj2

04-11-06, 05:22 PM

I'm pretty sure Nothru22 said he achieved 1:1 pixel mapping.

agro1

04-11-06, 05:25 PM

Jeff - again, many thanks. That helps very much in my decision making process.

Any thoughts on which DVD player to use ?

billymac

04-11-06, 05:27 PM

okay, so I called infocus. and they don't list it under data compatability because 1280x720 is it's native resolution. makes sense i guess, but if it were my company, i'd probably go ahead and list it there anyway. ;)

i asked twice, and also confirmed that it will work digitally over hdmi and dvi through m1.

;)

billymac

04-11-06, 05:30 PM

jeff, can you please take another peak at my post above agros and answer the fan noise clarification question i'm asking? thanks

JeffKB

04-11-06, 05:35 PM

would the sheen you're speaking of be apparent on a high-power screen? i'm having a hard time remembering what hccv is. i have two screens currently, a high contrast matte white, and a high power...both da-lite model b's. just wondering which would be better suited for the in76.

one last question about the noise. is the low power noise level of the in76 as loud or louder than the noise of the high power of the 4805? or were you just saying that the fan noise of low power mode on the in76 is about equivelant or close to equivelant of lower power on the 4805?

/edit

yeah what agro said. i would like some advice on screens too. i just have the two right now though and was wanting to get just a matte white, but i can't really swing it right now..
Hi Billymac - I haven't looked at a HiPower sample in a while, but I don't recall seeing sheen on it like the HCCV and nobody complains about sheen in any of the threads (unlike with the HCCV). YMMV when it comes to liking screens and I would definitely hold off deciding on screen material until you get your PJ and can look at some samples. See my prior post to agro1.

The IN76 in low lamp mode is definitely NOT louder than the 4805 in high lamp mode. I can't honestly compare the noise levels of the two projectors because I'm just not certain. For one, the noise types are different. The 4805 was more fan noise with a noticeable color wheel overtone, while the IN76 is more air flow noise. Keep in mind hearing is logarithmic, and a 5 dB difference in sound (to pick a number) can sometimes seem like only a slight difference. It takes about 10 dB for a sound to be perceived as twice as loud for instance, and like I said, that's with a logarithmic scale. After living with the IN76 for a while now, hopefully when I mount the 4805 again I'll gain some better insight into the question. I'm really expecting the IN76 to be quieter, but not by much. We'll see.