Infocus IN72-IN74-IN76 [Text View] - Page 8

bub

04-21-06, 09:48 AM

Kras,
Thank you for the help. I will try to answer your questions.

Please do the ceiling temperature test.
I will include an image of the picture I took of my install and my thermostat. As you can see, I placed a low tech gauge to check ceiling temperature and superimposed a small picture of my thermostat on the picture. My thermostat reads 74 degrees and the gauge also reads 74 degrees. As I thought, there is not much difference between what my thermostat says and the temperature in my living room and the celing where the IN72 is mounted. So, the other night when my thermostat read 63 degrees and my IN72 was running high speed fan, I'm fairly confident that my ceiling temperature at the mount was very close to 63 degrees as well. Check out my mount to see if you have any idea if that is the problem.

Also what elevation do you live?
I live in Arkansas so maybe 400 feet above sea level...

Where are the register vents in the room?
There are two vents in my room but neither have been on yet this spring for air conditioning and neither have been on for weeks for heating. One is to the left of the picture on the floor and the other is to the right of the picture of the adjoining wall, also on the floor.

The point we are trying to make is that nobody gets three lemons in a row
Well, I did not order 3 IN72's, I only ordered one and since I've never had a projector before, I had no idea what the noise would be like. BUT, I DID read here on this forum numerous times from numerous sources, one from the man, Bob Williams himself, just how unbelievably quiet these new INxx series projectors were. So, I must defend myself here when I say that I think it reasonable for me to assume that my IN72 would be quiet. It wasn't, not by a long shot or by any stretch of the imagination.

I immediately contacted Jason here at AVS, whom I purchased from, and we went back and forth a couple of emails and Jason contacted his InFocus rep and ultimately decided to replace the projector. He asked me to call InFocus tech support first though, which I did. That tech never asked me one single question about anything, not where I had it installed, how it was installed, what temperature it was operating at, what any of my settings were. He never even asked me to turn it on to check if maybe I had it inadvertantly set on high lamp mode. Just authourized the replacement and was done with me.

The replacement showed up a week and a half later, but had a bad lamp. The flicker was so bad I feared the thing would explode. BUT, while I had that turned on, it behaved exactly as the first one. I immediately contacted both Jason and InFocus. They sent out another replacement pretty quickly. As we all know by now, it acts the exact same way as the other two.

Now, it isn't like I don't hear the low fan speed or that my IN72 doesn't have a low fan speed, I DO AND IT DOES! The problem is it only runs for a few seconds under two conditions. First, when I first turn the projector on, it will run high for a few seconds and then it will throttle down to low fan speed. I would bet money that this initial spinup of the projector does not generate enough heat in those 5 seconds to cause the projector to switch to high fan speed for cooling purposes.
Second, when I cycle from high lamp mode to low lamp mode, again my IN72 WILL cycle down to the low fan speed. BUT, under both conditions, this low fan speed will only last about 5 seconds, then you can hear it begin to ramp back up to full speed.

Now, where there may be some subjectivity on my part is this ramping up to what I believe is high fan speed, maybe this high fan speed that I hear is different than what I would be hearing if I selected high lamp mode and left it there for a period of time. I have done that and I can't detect any difference, or if I do it isn't easily noticeable to my ear.

I live in Magazine, Arkansas. It is about 1 hour southeast of Ft. Smith and about 2 hours northwest of Little Rock. I would be very willing to have somebody stop by to check everything out if there is any members around this area.

It is just very frustrating to me because I still am reading posts where people are saying they can not even hear their INxx from 6 feet away and that even on high lamp mode, they can barely even hear their INxx. My IN72 is as loud as my fridge and it is very noticeable from 2 rooms away. It has absolutely nothing to do with my being hyper sensitive to the noise. This thing is loud, very loud. That isn't a subjective statement, it is a fact. Now, what is causing it to be loud is the question.

I really do appreciate all the help, thank you all. And, I know that sometimes the positives get lost when all we do is focus on a problem, but let me assure everybody that I am very happy with 95% of my projector. The image is truly stunning! I come from a Mits 55incher rear projector and I'm pretty particular about my picture. The IN72 has exceeded every one of my expectations when it comes to image. I can't imagine a DVD looking any better. I would buy the IN72 again. It would just be nice to resolve this one issue.

George -bub

kevivoe

04-21-06, 10:09 AM

bub

04-21-06, 10:30 AM

bub

There is no way possible that your ceiling temp is the same as your seating temp. I spent 2 hours the other night and ran the test with a portable digital thermometer and posted my results. I would still like to see your accurate test results on the rise in temp. on your ceiling.

1) Seating temp. after 1/2 hour "soak" with digital thermometer.
2) Ceiling temp. after 1/2 hour "soak" with PJ OFF with the SAME digital thermometer.
3) Ceiling temp. after 1/2 hour "soak" with PJ ON with the SAME digital thermometer.

Once we have this accurate data we can determine the next step.

Why do we focus on your environment? Because others do not have this issue AND you've tried 3 IN72's and they all act the same. I suspect it is your environment but the data will help us determine the root cause. Opinions on temperature do not help determine the root cause.

k

Kevivoe,
What you say makes perfect sense, with one glaring exception. How is it possible that within 5 seconds, the IN72 has generated enough heat to force the fan into high speed mode??? If that is exactly what is going on, then what difference would it make if my ceiling temperature was 65 degrees or 165 degrees? If the IN72 is generating enough heat to cycle the fan speed, the initial temperature of my environment, within reason (and I know 165 degrees is not reasonable, just making a point) should not make any difference what-so-ever.

I know my temperature readings are not 100% accurate but they must be reasonably close, certainly close enough for this purpose.

I'm guessing that maybe 80 degrees is an average room temperature. The INxx series projectors should run in low fan speed while on low lamp mode in normal environments, correct? If it was 65 degrees in my house, and say the ceiling temperature at initial startup of the IN72 was say 75 degrees (and I'm betting it was much closer to 65 degrees than 75, but lets assume 75 degrees), why would the IN72 be forced into high fan speed within 5 seconds? That 75 degrees should be well within normal operating temperatures.

Like I said, if the IN72 is generating enough heat within 5 seconds of startup to force the fan to run at high speed to protect the projector from heat stress, then what difference does it make the temperature of my environment?

I have the projector on right now doing a test of my D1 and new loader. I will wait for 30 minutes of operation, then take a reading using my crude tools, cheap temperature gauge and my wall thermostat.

It's been 25 minutes and neither my thermostat or my temperature gauge (just thought of something, I forgot to post the picture of my install, will do that with this post hopefully, first picture post) has moved one iota. Both still read 74 degrees.

George -bub

Now it has been 40 minutes and no change in either thermostat or temperature gauge. Both on exactly the same numbers as before turning projector on.

Now, over an hour with no change of either temperature gauge or thermostat.

jvos

04-21-06, 10:59 AM

Bub -

I feel your pain. You mention several times that this is your first projector. I just have to ask - are you sure you are hearing the fan? Or could you be hearing the color wheel? The color wheel sounds much like a laptop hard disk. And, on start up, there is a 5 second pause, and then it spins up. It is more of a high pitch whine than the "whoosh" of the fan. Some people are VERY sensitive to the high pitch noise, while most don't really hear it at all. Is it possible this is what you are hearing?
I have read before than inverting slightly changes the color wheel pitch, btw

Also, the reason your environment is being questioned is that ambient air temp, not just internal air temp, can cause the pj to shift to high power mode. So it isn't that your pj heats up in 5 seconds, its that the pj detects ambient air temp shortly after startup.

Also, several people have asked this - since you say the pj is quiet in deskop mode, can you try simply inverting it (since you have 3 of these, you shouldn't have to disconnect) ON THE TABLE to see if it has the same symptoms? If inverted on the table top it is still quiet, then the only variance is heat/airflow near your ceiling mount.

Hope this helps!

V.X.Donique

04-21-06, 11:11 AM

bub,

just out of curiosity, what mount are you using?

bub

04-21-06, 11:18 AM

Ok, just remembered that someone described the way the fan operates, it increases in speed in cycles of 20-30 seconds. I have only been leaving my projector on high lamp mode for 15 seconds or so, just long enough for me to see if I could hear a difference and I couldn't. But, I guess I haven't been leaving it on long enough.

Just switched to high lamp mode and sat there listening. Sure enough, there were 3 increases in fan speed, or at least the noise I was hearing. So, it is for certain that I am not running in high fan speed while on low lamp setting as I thought.

Switched back to low lamp mode and sat listening. The projector immediately ramps down to a very quiet state (if it ran at this level of noise, I would be ecstatic). I sat quietly and sure enough, about 10 seconds and the fan ramped up a bit. 20-30 seconds later it ramped up again and 20-30 seconds later, it ramped up a 3rd time, just like it did when switching from low lamp mode to high lamp mode.

So, my projector seems to be working as designed. On low lamp mode, the projector runs through 3 cycles of fan speeds (I'm assuming this because I really have no idea but the noise I hear makes me think the fan speed is changing), when switched to high lamp mode, the projector again goes through 3 cycles of fan speed increases. It is extremely noisy at high lamp mode after the 3 cycles.

It is definitely not the color wheel unless it ramps up too according to lamp settings?

So, I guess the question now is how are people commenting that they can't even hear their projector from 4 feet away or that even on high lamp, their projector is hardly noticeable? I would never describe my projector as 'can't even hear it' or 'hardly noticeable' unless it was running at that initial level of noise after first starting or switching to low lamp from high lamp.

I have sat a IN72 on my table both upright and on its back with no difference. It seems to run at that very low level of noise for as long as I've waited. The temperature on my table is the same, or certainly within a few degress, of the temperature on my ceiling so why the difference in operation?

I really do appreciate all the assistance, thank you all.
George -bub

bub

04-21-06, 11:21 AM

bub,

just out of curiosity, what mount are you using?

It is the Premiere Universal Series, PBL-UMS. It is a very solid mount but I'm not sure I would recommend it. It is very hard to use to manipulate your projector. It has an allen wrench type of tightening system that once you get your projector where you want it and go to tighten the bolts, it causes a lot of stress on the mount and it is very hard to tighten without moving the mount.

Once you get it set though, it seems very stable. It is just hard to manipulate the projector without moving those settings when trying to tighten everything down. I could be doing something wrong though.

I got it for ~$100.

George -bub

kevivoe

04-21-06, 11:26 AM

@ bub

You projector mount is in a "corner" between a back wall and ceiling. Mine is center of ceiling.

I can see how this mount will lead to a much higher temperature esp. if sunlight warms the space behind the curtains and can ONLY flow up to your projector. Your OFF temperature of 74 degrees is MUCH hotter than with my projector ON for an extended period of time.

How hot does this space get with the PJ ON for a bit?

Also, the "corner" mount will tend to amplify all your PJ sounds as well as the temperature.

Put your digital thermometer on top of your PJ ... this is where the hotspot will be. My readings for ceiling mount are taken from the top of the PJ. You may find another 2-3 degrees in your setup.

I wonder if there is an "airflow" sensor inside these things. If the airflow is restricted it may never come out of high fan speed mode.

Bub, can you aim a fan at the PJ from a couple of feet away before starting up to see if this does anything? Not a permanent fix but a data point mind you.

Another thing I notice about your mount. The vibration from the PJ could be worse with the mounting point way behind the PJ (on a lever so to speak). Can you add isolation rubber washers behind the screws to dampen the vibration of the fan and color wheel? just a thought.

k

jvos

04-21-06, 11:40 AM

Bub -

I have sat a IN72 on my table both upright and on its back with no difference. It seems to run at that very low level of noise for as long as I've waited.

Ok, clearly if the inverted pj on the table acts differently from the inverted pj on the ceiling, it MUST be some issue with the environment. Also, remember, it is airflow, not just air temp. Your corner could be causing a little eddy of air to pool around the pj instead of cycling through.

Try this - place a fan 6' to the box fan input side of your pj. Does the pj fan drop in level? If so, you have an airflow problem.

bub

04-21-06, 11:54 AM

Hey k, you are being kind to put so much effort into helping me, thank you very much. I see what you mean about the 'corner' and the sun heating up the window and heat moving up to the projector. I watch at night 95% of the time since there is too much ambient light to watch the projector during the day. So, the sunlight heating up the air isn't an issue for me (it is overcast today, no sun at all).

It has now been 1 hour and 45 minutes the projector has been on and there is no change in either my thermostat or the temperature gauge near the projector. Both still read 74 degrees. I have just now moved the temperature gauge so that it is next to the thermostat to check how they match up to each other.

Remember that the other day, my room temperature was only 63 degrees and the projector sounded exactly the same. Did you read my other post regarding my further testing of the fan cycles of the IN72 at both high lamp mode and low lamp? I do know now that my IN72 is NOT running at high fan speed on low lamp mode. So, I guess now I'm just trying to figure out why I perceive my projector as being very loud while other describe theirs as 'can't hear it from 4 feet away'...

I don't think the airflow is being restricted at all with my setup. Certainly being back into a 'corner' isn't as efficient as being dropped from the middle of a room, but the vents on these things are on the sides. As you can see from my setup, there is nothing around either side of my projector.

About the rubber mounts, are you talking about behind the mounting plate towards the wall? Putting something between the wall and the mounting plate would lessen the noise, you think? I would be willing to do something like that if you really thought it would help.

I guess I can see how being in the 'corner' like that would certainly direct the noise outward at a 45 degree angle from the 'corner'.

k, maybe you could explain why the IN72 has that very low noise level, I'm assuming low fan speed causes this, that I hear right after the initial ramp up when turning the projector on AND when cyclying from high lamp mode to low lamp mode? Why is that fan speed even there if the only time it is going to be used is for 5 seconds, then it is going to ramp up 3 times to a normal operating speed?

Thank you again for helping,
George -bub

@ bub

You projector mount is in a "corner" between a back wall and ceiling. Mine is center of ceiling.

I can see how this mount will lead to a much higher temperature esp. if sunlight warms the space behind the curtains and can ONLY flow up to your projector. Your OFF temperature of 74 degrees is MUCH hotter than with my projector ON for an extended period of time.

How hot does this space get with the PJ ON for a bit?

Also, the "corner" mount will tend to amplify all your PJ sounds as well as the temperature.

Put your digital thermometer on top of your PJ ... this is where the hotspot will be. My readings for ceiling mount are taken from the top of the PJ. You may find another 2-3 degrees in your setup.

I wonder if there is an "airflow" sensor inside these things. If the airflow is restricted it may never come out of high fan speed mode.

Bub, can you aim a fan at the PJ from a couple of feet away before starting up to see if this does anything? Not a permanent fix but a data point mind you.

Another thing I notice about your mount. The vibration from the PJ could be worse with the mounting point way behind the PJ (on a lever so to speak). Can you add isolation rubber washers behind the screws to dampen the vibration of the fan and color wheel? just a thought.

k

billymac

04-21-06, 11:59 AM

I saw this problem with X1, with 4805 and now again with the new series.
Why are people getting bashed up if they complain about a product.
Note that these products are made in some hut in some remote island
with absolutely no quality control. so if you are lucky you get a unit
assembled well with good quality parts. Other wise you get a piece of
junk. Just because one guy's unit is quiet it doesnt mean that the guy
who is complaining is nuts. For some $2500 it better be flaw less.
Image quality alone is not important. If I cant watch a quiet movie
without distraction what good is $2500 bucks plus all the gear.
I might as well use my 27'' WEGA.

So stop bashing guys who say that their unit not quiet.

dude, go away. nobody's bashing anybody. i can't believe i'm actually wasting my time quoting your post, but at the very least i want to let bub know i was sincere. if it doesn't work for you, send it back and get something else. that's far from bashing. mupi you're a real piece of work. you contribute nothing. and i'm surprised the mods continue to let you post quite frankly. i understand everybody's entitled to their opinion and all, but really you don't contribute anything but unfounded criticisms.

billymac

04-21-06, 12:02 PM

- so please go hang out in the 27" TV forum. And study geography while you there - China is not an island.

OMG! ROFL!!!!

bub

04-21-06, 12:16 PM

Ok, I've placed a box fan on high and faced it right into the intake side of the projector for 10 minutes. The projector ran the same fan setting so I don't think it is an airflow issue.

I have also sat the temperature gauge next to my thermostat for 30 minutes and neither has moved so I really think my ceiling temperature is not very far from the ambient temperature in my room.

I seem to remember one time while I was watching a movie, the projector cycled down to the low fan speed setting (the low fan speed setting I'm referring to is that intial low speed right after the initial high speed after lamp strike AND the initial fan speed after cycling to low lamp mode from high lamp mode.) But, just like the two times I do hear a low fan speed, it only lasted very briefly, then back up.

So, my projector is NOT running high fan speed during low lamp operation, I've figured that much out, with much help from members here. Now, trying to figure out two things, 1) how to get my projector as quiet as it can be and 2) what is the purpose of that low fan speed if it is only going to run at that speed for 5 seconds.

Thanks once again for all the help,
George -bub

I have not been offended by all the help and/or comments nor do I need anybody defending my right to post issues. I believe everybody here have been most tolerant of my posts. Thank you everybody for that.

kevivoe

04-21-06, 12:19 PM

@ bub

I think someone else also pointed out this is the color wheel coming up to speed in 5 seconds.

I meant for you to try isolation (vibration isolation as in motor mount ...) between your back wall and your projector.

I have toyed with the same idea for my IN76 since I see people walking in the upper level of the house causing the 10' image to wiggle in the lower level. I am looking for some dense foam or rubber washers to place between the mount and PJ and between the mount and wall/ceiling.

This would work akin to a motor mount in a car. Dampening the vibration and reducing the sound. I will look around at hardware this afternoon and give this a try. I will listen to see if this helps lower sound also. In theory it should ... but then there is the "in practice" part ....

k

bubbawilly

04-21-06, 12:37 PM

...Now, over an hour with no change of either temperature gauge or thermostat.

Sorry if this has been addressed before, but I just now saw the picture of your setup.

Where is the air intake and exhaust on the IN72?

jvos

04-21-06, 12:44 PM

Bub -

Just so its clear, a properly designed cooling system is designed so that if insufficient ambient temperature or airflow is present to allow proper cooling, the fan speed is increased. The "5 seconds" you keep quoting is a reasonable time for the equipment to detect and respond.

So SOMETHING is causing your pj to believe it needs a higher fan speed in order to cool the components. And if the fan speed is lower when it sits on your coffee table as you state, then it isn't a defect in the PJ itself. I am not sure what that setting is, but in my previous life of designing eletronic enclosures, we typically used 69.5 degrees as the ambient air threshold. So if you are measuring 74, that makes sense.

I'd suggest waiting until tonight, and repeating the tests with thermometer to see if you get a different result. If you still get the same result with ambient air in the mid 60s, try the box fan again. If the results continue to be the same, then the only thing I could suggest would be call in a HT consultant to inspect your setup.

krasmuzik

04-21-06, 01:36 PM

Kras, I just reread your reply to me. Maybe you should charge by the degree.

If a projector is off 1500K charge $1500, if its off .5K charge'm $500....

You could get rich calibrating Optoma projectors, you'll just have to give up on most InFocus

Hey, and you deserve a $500 bonus if you can calibrate 30, 50, 80 and 100 IRE all within 100 of 6500K.

Makem pay for talent! And since the lamps change over time, you can come back every 500 hours of use and recalibrate - now you might only pick up a few hundred.... whatever works! -art

I actually considered that - but thought it might not fly since those that need it the most would have to pay the most yet they are the ones that likely were too cheap to consider video quality and would only consider getting it done if it were cheap.

I do cut my local Infocus customers that I turn into videophiles some slack on the ISF MSRP - always somebody that wants to make sure they have that last %. I do have one that tries to get me in twice on every lamp - maybe I should bump him up to thrice just to be sure!

I do know the HT ScreenPlay lineup for the spendy projector forum is factory calibrated to 0dE. I would hope that more money for IN76 vs. IN72 means more factory calibration time - rather than a tight statistical sampling calibration - but since it is in the HomeEntertainment lineup and cheap projector forum - I don't know that that is true until I measure a bunch of them.

As far as your review goes - it was fair. Just a couple facts wrong - the lamp door access depends on your ceiling mount plate vs. spider legs giving you that flexibility - and for the table mount - you need a screw driver anyways to dismount the lamp. And indeed it is a 1280x768 chip masked off to 1280x720 - you must not have noticed the 48pixels of light spill because of the excellent contrast - but it is indeed there.

Also Infocus just streamlined their warranty programs again. Now you get the projector year extensions, the lamp extension to 1yr - and if I understand correctly - you can get the priority exchange warranty. Of course valid point if they pay for it - but up to each customer to negotiate that into MAP packages with their dealer. Infocus does differ with the rigidly control MAP price whereas others have a shopping cart free far all - but it would be illegal for Infocus to control the actual private selling price. Dealers can sell for whatever they want to - including as a loss leader if they want. They just cannot advertise their selling price.

As far as your sensor/software calibration vendor - might be worth a review plug on their part to barter for your free sensor recalibration :D

ssj2

04-21-06, 02:02 PM

krasmuzik

04-21-06, 02:09 PM

Kevivoe,

Now it has been 40 minutes and no change in either thermostat or temperature gauge. Both on exactly the same numbers as before turning projector on.

Now, over an hour with no change of either temperature gauge or thermostat.

You do realize you are temping on the intake side? Try the outtake side. Because it is close to the wall and curtain and ceiling - possibility of baffling heating up one side of the projector. I always install with at least six inches behind the projector just for ease of interconnects - looks like you are short. Infocus wants the projectors free and clear in the middle of the ceiling so it can breath.

Try using the ceiling mount so the projector itself is in front of the curtain. Tilt the projector to matte the screen if you have to. This is just a test - so better yet take the projector off the mount - and mock this up with a ladder in front of the window that gets it free and clear.

For both sound and heat reasons - the baffling of the corner intersection will increase both. It is just like putting a subwoofer in a corner - you get more boom. So adding some rigid fiberglass as a baffle may help both problems if you cannot move it forward and down. (BTW I am completing a masters degree in audio acoustical engineering - so I am pretty sure about corner interactions....)

After seeing your pics - I would say the projector is doing exactly what it was designed to do - protect your lamp from overheating in a non-optimal install by ramping up the fan.

Yes the mount is a bit of a pain to adjust - all of the spider mounts are. The trick is to adjust it so it is stiff enough that you can still move it - then you get it centered by wacking it where it needs to go. As I said to my last customer - sure they could have bought the powerdriver and level 10x over with the money they paid me to wack the mount into place - but I know how to wack it! :D

krasmuzik

04-21-06, 02:15 PM

Kras & other gurus, I have a question if you don't mind. It's been confirmed there's no tint control available when using DVI, and my guess is this is so for an HDMI input as well. I understand that a tint control shouldn't be needed with a DVI or HDMI signal.

However, JeffKB reported that AVIA (or another calibration disc) is showing that tint is slightly off for him when using DVI from his Oppo DVD player. Would the fact that tint is off according to AVIA indicate a need for correction (at the player or the projector)? Or, is the tint "result" simply irrelevant with a DVI / HDMI signal. Thanks.

Tint is only a relevant control for engineering purposes on Svideo and Composite signals - the purpose of Tint is to realign the phase angle between the color difference signals that is extracted from the wire.

With component video - the color difference signals have defined phase by virtue of being on two wires. They are by definition the axis of color difference - so if you want to change tint - you have to rotate the axis - trigometrically.

With DVI - you use RGB - and you no longer even have video. There are no color differences to align. The source is that one that converted the video into RGB. It is not possible to have a tint control unless you convert the RGB back into color differences and then you fake an axis rotation thru number manipulation. But why take the hit of coding back into video again? In fact some of the projectors out there do that very thing - convert RGB back to video and back to RGB again - because it was the cheapest way of getting adjustments.

With HDMI YCbCr - now you have digital component - same deal - not needed by definition.

So why then do you have that you find you need the tint control? Well first of all - maybe it is your technique - the filters you get are not that great. So go to the service menu and select blueonly mode - make sure you are adjusting right. OK so you got that far and find you need a tint control - now time to blame the player when you have a digital signal because the player decoded the video. But since it is digital - there should be no need for a tint control - so your cheaper players leave it out.

So why do you still need a tint control? Bottom line - marketing triumphs over engineering. Player manufacturers feel the need to make their player look different in the video store - so they are adjustng the presets. Which is pretty sad that they give you no way to unadjust those presets. My opinion of the Oppo after calibrating it with a Dwin TV3 recently is not very high (the Dwin did have all video controls even for the DVI RGB input) - fact is the video quality of the IN72 hooked up to an old Panny 480i player - for 10% of the price was about 10x better.

ssj2

04-21-06, 02:38 PM

Thanks Kras, great info!

Rod S

04-21-06, 03:55 PM

JeffKB

04-21-06, 04:35 PM

It is not possible to have a tint control unless you convert the RGB back into color differences and then you fake an axis rotation thru number manipulation. But why take the hit of coding back into video again? In fact some of the projectors out there do that very thing - convert RGB back to video and back to RGB again - because it was the cheapest way of getting adjustments.

Kras - the IN76 offers saturation control on DVI/HDMI. Wouldn't you need to do the same things you describe above in order to make that control active on DVI/HDMI? If so, why not include tint control as well?

krasmuzik

04-21-06, 04:41 PM

JeffKB

Saturation, Brightness/Contrast are all level controls. Which means they are implemented in hardware with simple scaling of numbers - and it is fairly straightforward.. Tint is much more difficult - because you have to be able to rotate the color difference axis and rebalance the color difference values to effect the rotation then convert back to RGB - which is at least some trigonometry/pythogorean involved. Which is why some poor implementations that do it - convert from digital to analog back to digital - because that function is already on the analog video chip. In fact some time ago when component video was new - even Faroudja in their high end scalers would convert down to Svideo - because that was how their chips worked.

It all comes down to cost of digital calculations to support other marketing screwups. Which makes you wonder how a digital player screws it up in the first place - they had to pay more to do it wrong than do it right!

Now maybe the projector has the capability and it is just a matter of convincing BobWilliams to turn it on in a firmware update - thus conceeding that even digital players screw up tint. BobWilliams - feel free to make a monkey out of me saying it is not possible or needed. :D

krasmuzik

04-21-06, 04:46 PM

"My opinion of the Oppo after calibrating it with a Dwin TV3 recently is not very high (the Dwin did have all video controls even for the DVI RGB input) - fact is the video quality of the IN72 hooked up to an old Panny 480i player - for 10% of the price was about 10x better."

Is the Oppo really that bad? I was under the impression that it was a pretty decent unit.

I think there was some hype associated with digital upconverting DVD players that got excited about the digital upconverting part - without realizing that a quality display will digitally upconvert as well - and people forgot about video engineering fundamentals. Not enough reviewers talk about the video signal itself - they talk about the deinterlacer and scaling features instead.

Now keep in mind I don't waste time reviewing commodity DVD players - so all my experience is based on calibrations of trying to get whatever the customer has to make a good picture while I am there. For all I know the Oppo could be great - and it was the projector that screwed with the video.

bthorn9435

04-21-06, 04:48 PM

krasmuzik

04-21-06, 04:53 PM

I can confirm what is happening with bub's projector. Last night I noticed that my projector goes from low fan mode to a higher fan speed. I can cut highpower mode on and it gets louder. In no way does it bother me its not that noticable. I think this is typical of all these units. Maybe there will be a firmware update that corrects this in the future.

Yes the fan is controlled with firmware so anythings possible - including an option to turn off the fan and blow up your lamp - but that does not mean Infocus would do it. Obviously they have to balance projector exchanges for noise vs. projector exchanges for blown lamps.

How does your install compare to bub's? Pictures?

So far it seems what is being confirmed is that for some installs - the fan is ramping up. It should be possible to identify common install themes that cause it.

JeffKB

04-21-06, 05:12 PM

Thx for the info on tint Kras, that makes sense.

As for this fan speed business, is there ANYBODY who has the projector ceiling mounted whose fan remains at the lowest speed permanently (i.e. the speed you hear when you first turn on the PJ cold)?

My fan increases in stages from the absolute low setting you initially hear until it reaches its final speed about 10 minutes after projector power up. Switching it to high power increases it from there. I believe this to be the standard behavior and not necessarily indicative of a problem.

bthorn9435

04-21-06, 05:47 PM

My projector is mounted on an 8ft ceiling and is not located near any vent or window. The unit is off the wall about 6inches, which shouldn't matter anyways because this projectors vents are located on the sides. I don't have a problem with the noise of the unit as some others do.

bthorn9435

04-21-06, 05:56 PM

Yes the fan is controlled with firmware so anythings possible - including an option to turn off the fan and blow up your lamp - but that does not mean Infocus would do it. Obviously they have to balance projector exchanges for noise vs. projector exchanges for blown lamps.

How does your install compare to bub's? Pictures?

So far it seems what is being confirmed is that for some installs - the fan is ramping up. It should be possible to identify common install themes that cause it.

Lighten up krasmuzik I would never suggest that a company sacrifice lamp life for noise. Hell I would rather the PJ be loud and get 500 more hours than quiet and get less usage. Noise is not a problem with me. I was just making the obvious observation that it could possibly be fixed with a firmware update, and by fixed that implies there is a problem which I doubt there is.

For anyone who is curious the IN series seems to be quieter than the HD72. I can state that when the HD72 is in highpower that its much louder than the IN72 in the same mode. I find that if you concentrate hard enough on something that it will consume you. I believe they call it OCD. If the worst part of these units is the noise then that is minor compared to a projector that resets all of its settings or one that has to be sent in to be upgraded.

bub

04-21-06, 06:29 PM

Not a problem at all, went very smooth.

I would like to once more say thank you to everybody who has taken time to offer me advice, I certainly appreciate it.

If my projector is working properly, I have absolutely no problem with it what-so-ever. That's all I was trying to do, make sure my IN72 was working as it should. I'm starting to think it is...

I'm still not happy with the amount of noise on low power but I will live with it and enjoy my projector. I wish it was less noise but not a deal breaker for me.

Thank you all once again,
George -bub

krasmuzik

04-21-06, 06:32 PM

bthorn9435

I am trying to identify what install cause the problem. Yours IS identical to bub's as it is near a wall/ceiling intersection - which goes back to corner loading elevates both sound and heat. That is great that it does not bother you on the sound and that it is less than another brand - but that is not the what I am trying to get to. What I am trying to get to is if the rampup fan sound is bothersome to someone - how can the projector be installed so it does not do that. If not for you - if it does not bother you enough to reinstall it - at least I will know for the installs that I do - that is if there is no choice but to go in that corner - then I better test it before I sell it.

Anyone else with the same rampup sound issue want to participate in troubleshooting? For those who do not understand troubleshooting procedures - the purpose is to find the fault. So if you don't want to hear that an install can be made better - don't participate.

hmcewin

04-21-06, 06:37 PM

Greetings,

Quick question regarding calibration results. In calibrating the IN76 I received for review, I was surprised that the out of box color was well off the 6500K, in fact at most IRE's between 5900 and 6100. Viewing the actual color output would tend to confirm the measurements, and my meter is providing consistant results compared to a few months ago, so while it might be off a little, I don't think that's the problem.

The low color temp seems inconsistant with two other reviews I've read, which both indicated that their units were pretty darn close to a perfect 6500 out of the bo.

It was easy to correct the shift, but, for that, and a couple of other reasons, I suspect that it may be this unit or the lamp itself. The color measurements were done off of Avia Pro using only the HDMI input.

I also suspect the lamp or unit because it measured in low power mode just over 20% less than the Optoma HD72 in equivilent settings, and some of the feedback I'm reading (and hearing) is that the IN76 is comparable to the HD72 in brightness, and possibly a touch brighter. (at least in best modes.

The unit I received has the older firmware, but I wouldn't think, from the list of fixes, that it would relate, and the other reviewers units had to be at least as old as this one.

Thanks
Art,

I read in another review the offset is something like 17%. In your review you indicated a ceiling mount would require the projector to be at the top of the screen which would seem to me to be 0 offset. Could you please clarify this for me?

Thanks,

Henry

bthorn9435

04-21-06, 06:44 PM

I know I am a neophyte when it comes to projector installs but I dont understand how mounting it in another location will help noise levels. Please help me understand this.

Bigoober

04-21-06, 06:48 PM

Don't hit me for chiming in again here....

Will carpet tiles mounted on the ceiling, and in bub's case the back wall, dampen out the fan noise to any decent degree?

mooney

04-21-06, 06:59 PM

Infocus news at:

http://biz.yahoo.com/bizj/060421/1276854.html?.v=2

billymac

04-21-06, 07:19 PM

Infocus news at:

http://biz.yahoo.com/bizj/060421/1276854.html?.v=2

yeah, their stock is doing a little better the last few weeks too. thank goodness :)

JeffKB

04-21-06, 07:20 PM

Art,

I read in another review the offset is something like 17%. In your review you indicated a ceiling mount would require the projector to be at the top of the screen which would seem to me to be 0 offset. Could you please clarify this for me?

Thanks,

Henry
FWIW I found the offset to be around 8%, not the 15% stated in the IF specs.

krasmuzik

04-21-06, 07:33 PM

Don't hit me for chiming in again here....

Will carpet tiles mounted on the ceiling, and in bub's case the back wall, dampen out the fan noise to any decent degree?

Carpet tiles are not great absorbers - better is rigid fiberglass (i.e. duct liner). You can even get it in black. Generally they dampen all sound above 500Hz - more or less depending on thickness. It is used in HVAC ducts for the exact same reasons.

For those who do not understand corner loading concepts - think of your walls as mirrors. You have a reflective sound source in the mirror - which adds up - the closer sources are to each other the more it sound sound like that many sources. Sound decays inversely with distance.

krasmuzik

04-21-06, 07:34 PM

FWIW I found the offset to be around 8%, not the 15% stated in the IF specs.

Check your level - if you have your level on the lamp door - you may not be level.

JeffKB

04-21-06, 07:51 PM

Check your level - if you have your level on the lamp door - you may not be level.
Hmmm...interesting. When installing, I never checked how level the PJ was, I just adjusted it until my image measured square on the blank screen wall. I just now put a level to the PJ and it's clear that the PJ is tilted up to some degree. I checked how plum my screen wall is, and although the bubble isn't exactly centered in the level window, it's not far off.

So....either the slight imperfection in my screen wall is accounting for the offset difference or the IN76 is not throwing a square image with the PJ level. I doubt it's the second scenario, but the first scenario seems somewhat unlikely as well - the wall is pretty plum.

I'll play around later tonight and try adjusting my screen's plumness using a level. I'd be interested to hear what other people are getting for an offset in the meantime.

danmetcalf

04-21-06, 08:41 PM

I was noticing the same thing JeffKB, I haven't taken any measurements, but it appears to be less than 16%.

Dogwood

04-21-06, 08:46 PM

I found the offset of 15.59 to be right on!

digital_dilemma

04-21-06, 10:09 PM

Dealers can sell for whatever they want to - including as a loss leader if they want. They just cannot advertise their selling price.

Is it that they cannot advertise the lower selling price, or is it that they cannot advertise the selling price AND claim their back-end marketing dollars? I understood that it was illegal to deprive someone of the right to advertise at any price they want, but that in order to participate in rebates, marketing dollars, etc.. you agreed to not go below those MAP prices in your "advertising" since the backside money is used for the "advertising".

kevivoe

04-21-06, 10:37 PM

I also found the offset to be 15.6% on the IN76. I cheated with a slight tilt and on an image projected to a wall you may not notice with a 110" or larger diagonal. You should measure the width of your image on the top and bottom of the screen. They may be off by up to an inch with only 8% offset.

Once you get a 16:9 or other "square" cornered screen you will see the trapezoid caused by less than ideal offset. No big deal, zoom it into the mask and you're good to go.

Kras, I am not an acoustical engr. but doesn't sound decay by 1 over the square of the distance from the source?

k

Bigoober

04-21-06, 11:15 PM

Carpet tiles are not great absorbers - better is rigid fiberglass (i.e. duct liner). You can even get it in black. Generally they dampen all sound above 500Hz - more or less depending on thickness. It is used in HVAC ducts for the exact same reasons.

For those who do not understand corner loading concepts - think of your walls as mirrors. You have a reflective sound source in the mirror - which adds up - the closer sources are to each other the more it sound sound like that many sources. Sound decays inversely with distance.

Thanks for the feedback. Saved me from looking like my forum name and having carpet on my ceiling!

crussader

04-22-06, 12:33 AM

Not a problem at all, went very smooth.

Glad to hear that the firmware update was trouble free. Perhaps you could post intructions for those of us that need to do this. It would be much appreciated.

bub

04-22-06, 09:45 AM

Glad to hear that the firmware update was trouble free. Perhaps you could post intructions for those of us that need to do this. It would be much appreciated.

I could post instructions but when you download the firmware, there is included a very nice pdf file with graphics of the process. I will tell you this, it is very straightforward and the pdf file makes it very easy to follow.

*Basically, download the firmware, it is a self extracting archive, and put the files into a folder.
*Hook up to the M1-D port with a cable (two choices here, on is a short $20 M1-D/VGA w/USB (you will need a USB extension cable here to hook up to your computer via USB -no need to hook up the VGA part for firmware upgrades) or the $60 M1-D/DVI w/USB (this cable has enough length to get you all the way to your computer but is expensive). I used the $20 cable, bought it off ebay for $15 w/$5 shipping.
*Double click on the 'FlashUSBIII.exe' file found in the folder you unzipped everything to.
*Click the 'Select Files' button.
*The 'IN72.dld' file is automatically selected for you.
*Click the 'Flash Mode' button.
You will see the Windows Found New Hardware setup here, just let it do its thing, it's automatic. When it's done, select do not restart my computer.
*Click the 'Download' button.
Wait about 5 minutes. When the ~1100kB file is finished, close the program and check your firmware version number, you're done.

Good luck all,
George -bub

I'm not sure how everybody feels about really having to pay $20 - $60 for these cables. I remember over on the Mits forum at another site, we all needed and IC2 device for hacking the color decoders. Some bought these devices, or made them, and a lot of people just shared a set by shipping them back and forth. I would be willing to do start something like that if there is any interest. I think you could ship these for $2-3.

jvos

04-22-06, 11:09 AM

carpet on my ceiling

This is also typically a fire hazard. Carpeting is tested for fire retardantness (is that a word?) as a floor covering only, not as a wall or ceiling covering. More typical is to use rigid fiberglass, covered with GOM or some other flame retardant fabric. Sound is one thing, but being in a tinderbox is another.

Ahzroe

04-22-06, 11:10 AM

I could post instructions but when you download the firmware, there is included a very nice pdf file with graphics of the process. I will tell you this, it is very straightforward and the pdf file makes it very easy to follow.

*Basically, download the firmware, it is a self extracting archive, and put the files into a folder.
*Hook up to the M1-D port with a cable (two choices here, on is a short $20 M1-D/VGA w/USB (you will need a USB extension cable here to hook up to your computer via USB -no need to hook up the VGA part for firmware upgrades) or the $60 M1-D/DVI w/USB (this cable has enough length to get you all the way to your computer but is expensive). I used the $20 cable, bought it off ebay for $15 w/$5 shipping.
*Double click on the 'FlashUSBIII.exe' file found in the folder you unzipped everything to.
*Click the 'Select Files' button.
*The 'IN72.dld' file is automatically selected for you.
*Click the 'Flash Mode' button.
You will see the Windows Found New Hardware setup here, just let it do its thing, it's automatic. When it's done, select do not restart my computer.
*Click the 'Download' button.
Wait about 5 minutes. When the ~1100kB file is finished, close the program and check your firmware version number, you're done.

Good luck all,
George -bub

I'm not sure how everybody feels about really having to pay $20 - $60 for these cables. I remember over on the Mits forum at another site, we all needed and IC2 device for hacking the color decoders. Some bought these devices, or made them, and a lot of people just shared a set by shipping them back and forth. I would be willing to do start something like that if there is any interest. I think you could ship these for $2-3.

A little lazy here, is this firmware recommended for the IN76 or just the IN72? If it is applicable for the IN76, I am interested in sharing a set of the cables. Please let me know! Thanks!!!!!!

bub

04-22-06, 11:15 AM

A little lazy here, is this firmware recommended for the IN76 or just the IN72? If it is applicable for the IN76, I am interested in sharing a set of the cables. Please let me know! Thanks!!!!!!

Yes, there is a firmware release from InFocus for both the IN72 and the IN76, each have their own download.

Not sure about the IN74.

Ahzroe,
Send me your mailing address and I will send you my cable. The only requirement is you send it back to me at your expense or, if there are others who want to share as well, you send it to the next person.

If there is enough interest, maybe I will purchase another cable for the cause as well. Those interested can send me a PM or post to this thread.

Mods, if this is against forum rules or something, please let me know right away.

Bigoober

04-22-06, 12:35 PM

This is also typically a fire hazard. Carpeting is tested for fire retardantness (is that a word?) as a floor covering only, not as a wall or ceiling covering. More typical is to use rigid fiberglass, covered with GOM or some other flame retardant fabric. Sound is one thing, but being in a tinderbox is another.

How will rigid fiberglass absorb the sound from the fan though?

Not putting carpet on the ceiling makes plenty of sense but won't isn't the fiberglass "smooth" causing just as much reflection of sound as drywall?

I understand the mass thing and wanting to get rid of vibration of walls and the ceiling to help deaden the sound, but this won't keep the sound from being reflected which is what bub may be experiencing, will it? Does the mass from the rigid fiberglass stop the reflection of the higher pitched sound of the fan and air?

I'll stop with the questions with this post since this isn't the forum for this. I am just trying to figure out options besides a hush box for those distracted by the noise.

Lindahl

04-22-06, 01:13 PM

krasmuzik

04-22-06, 02:12 PM

Is it that they cannot advertise the lower selling price, or is it that they cannot advertise the selling price AND claim their back-end marketing dollars? I understood that it was illegal to deprive someone of the right to advertise at any price they want, but that in order to participate in rebates, marketing dollars, etc.. you agreed to not go below those MAP prices in your "advertising" since the backside money is used for the "advertising".

Cannot advertise below MAP ...period - however you can do package deals at MAP. With Infocus MAP is always equal to MSRP - with others MAP is usually less than MSRP. I am not an online dealer so have not seen that Infocus sales contract (the local dealer contract for spendier HT models - says no online ...period) - but the contract for NEC was explicit spelling out exactly how your website can appear - can you do click for price - can you line out the price - do you call for price - etc.

What backside money for marketing dollars? Marketing is a dealer expense. About all we get from Infocus is brochures. Infocus has never done a dealer rebate. They do cut dealers a small break on dealer demos - which are serial number trusted and cannot be sold for a specified period of time (and usually MAP/MSRP is dropped by then) - and demos are qty. limited. Infocus will deny warranty - deny rebates, blacklist continual offenders. Just read the info on the where to buy on Infocus page.

It is not illegal to control advertising - it is illegal to control dealer selling price. If you are my brother and say hook me up with a IN76 at cost - I sure as heck can do that. What I cannot do is take out an ad saying IN76 at cost - everyone is my brother this weekend!

"
InFocus Play Big products sold by unauthorized dealers are not warranted or supported by InFocus Corp.

To ensure that you get a quality product, only purchase InFocus Play Big products from authorized Play Big InFocus dealers. Click here for a list of dealers who claim false authorized dealership.
"

Another way to identify authorized dealers - is see who is advertising MAP - if they are not - they are not authorized (or maybe they are and Infocus has not caught up to them yet - but they will as they employ a shopping service). Just look at the authorized online dealers for the IN76 - they all list MAP on their sites. You certainly can call and try to make a deal - maybe they even have an AVS deal.

krasmuzik

04-22-06, 02:15 PM

Sound only causes vibration when it's in the bass region. I doubt there's much bass coming from the fan - making isolation unimportant.

Rigid fiberglass is not solid - it's like a sponge, it holds it's form, but soaks up sound, as opposed to loose fiberglass which is more like a comforter (doesn't hold it's form).

Putting rigid fiberglass on the ceiling above the projector may work or may make it worse (depends on ceiling height). The reflective ceiling may, in fact, be cancelling some of the sound! There really aren't any options outside of a hushbox (besides trying some rigid fiberglass on the ceiling).

You are thinking of sound cancellation due to comb filtering (ceiling path differs from direct projector path). That only happens at specific periodic frequencies which differ at each location. With white noise like a fan - comb filtering just changes the perceived tone of the sound - not the overall level of the sound.

The reason the fiberglass panel will work - is that it moves the sound images in the "mirror" further away - and sound decreases with distance.

krasmuzik

04-22-06, 02:22 PM

How will rigid fiberglass absorb the sound from the fan though?

Not putting carpet on the ceiling makes plenty of sense but won't isn't the fiberglass "smooth" causing just as much reflection of sound as drywall?

I understand the mass thing and wanting to get rid of vibration of walls and the ceiling to help deaden the sound, but this won't keep the sound from being reflected which is what bub may be experiencing, will it? Does the mass from the rigid fiberglass stop the reflection of the higher pitched sound of the fan and air?

I'll stop with the questions with this post since this isn't the forum for this. I am just trying to figure out options besides a hush box for those distracted by the noise.

fiberglass trap heat and sound the same way. The sound/heat waves get trapped in the fiberglass in the air pockets and channels between the fibers - thus forming a resistance. resistance causes losses much more than the usual loss just to distance traveled. By the time the sound/heat finally finds its way to the reflective wall behind it - it has to come back thru the fibers again. This is why most dedicated theaters have fiberglass panels behind acoustic fabric.

I have a HEPA filter fan in the corner of my office - and put panels around it to cut down on the noise. You still hear the direct noise - but it cuts down on the corner bump from all the fans sound images behind the walls.

krasmuzik

04-22-06, 02:34 PM

I'm not sure how everybody feels about really having to pay $20 - $60 for these cables. I remember over on the Mits forum at another site, we all needed and IC2 device for hacking the color decoders. Some bought these devices, or made them, and a lot of people just shared a set by shipping them back and forth. I would be willing to do start something like that if there is any interest. I think you could ship these for $2-3.

Keep in mind Infocus will do a number of firmware updates over the life of the product - so $20 MSRP for the VGA/USB cable is well worth it on a per use basis - compared to the hassle and expense of mailing/waiting on a package. Also for those with local dealers - bring it back and have them do it.

PLB

04-22-06, 02:55 PM

I'm not sure we can have much confidence in the early reviews of the IN76. For example Art Feierman in http://www.projectorreviews.com/Manufacturers/infocus/IN76/index.asp
gets several important points wrong.

The IN76 home theater projector uses a 5x color wheel, that is the fastest avaiable and typical of most DLP projectors in this price range. With a 5X wheel only an extremely small percentage of viewers are susceptable at all of the "Rainbow Effect". If you are one of those very few, you are likely to go with an LCD projector instead. I should note that the Optoma HD72, which I have mentioned previously, uses a 4X wheel, so there will be few who find the IN76 to be a better choice in this regard, as there will be an additional small percentage of people who spot the rainbow effect with the Optoma.

If the IN76 has a 5X color wheel why does InFocus publish 4X on their site. BTW there are other 1 chip DLPs like the Optoma HD81 with 6X color wheels, so 5X is hardly the fastest available.

He also writes on the first page:
MSRP: $2999
Technology: Darkchip2 DLP projector
Native Resolution: WXGA 1280x720
Brightness: 1000 lumens
Contrast: 3000:1
Zoom Lens ratio: 1.2:1
Lens shift: Vertical and Horizontal
Lamp life: 3000 hours
Weight: 9.3 lbs.
Warranty: 1 year

Later in this same review he says:

The InFocus IN76 lacks variable lens shift...

and

The 1.3:1 zoom, as mentioned in the Overview

kevivoe

04-22-06, 04:41 PM

@ PLB

The IN76 DOES have a horizontal and vertical shift to move the projected image a bit to help align to a screen. This is not meant to help fix a problem over 2 inches however.

MAIN MENU
Advanced
Horizontal Position default to 50 but moves left or right when changed
Vertical Position default to 50 but moves up or down when changed

The IN76 is a 4X color wheel and uses the same 1280x768 0.65" DMD as the HD72 and HC3000U. It must be masked better than the HD72 sinceI do not see those extra couple of inches (48 pixels worth) once projected to a 118" diagonal.

k

Bigoober

04-22-06, 06:46 PM

krasmuzik, thanks for the reply and information. Makes plenty of sense now to. Something to hold onto when I go about building a house.

crussader

04-22-06, 07:21 PM

I used the $20 cable, bought it off ebay for $15 w/$5 shipping.

I tried to find something locally, it looks like this is the route I will take as well.

What search phrase should I use? Or, is there a particular seller I should contact?

bubbawilly

04-22-06, 08:30 PM

...Cannot advertise below MAP ...period - however you can do package deals at MAP.

Were you one of the dealers who whined about the AVS powerbuy?

awtryau89

04-22-06, 08:49 PM

Just installed my first one of these PJs. Actually it was the Knoll HD290 which is a rebadged version of the 76. Wow, I was very impressed. Beautiful bright picture on a 1.3 gain white screen. Ran a few checks with my color analyzer and the PJ was spot on. I am going to lose calibration business installing these. :eek: Anyway, noise level is the only minor quibble. Coming from the BenQs and Mitsubishis, it is a touch louder. I would love for this PJ to run in the fan mode that it first starts up with. It would be one of the quietest on the market. After reading the comments above, I guess I am in the minority on this one. I would give up the 3000 hour bulb life for 2000 hours and lower fan speed. In my experience, most PJs need a bulb replacement at 2000 hours (even the one's advertising longer life) due to dimming. I am just a stickler for the ambient noise.

bub

04-22-06, 08:57 PM

Keep in mind Infocus will do a number of firmware updates over the life of the product - so $20 MSRP for the VGA/USB cable is well worth it on a per use basis - compared to the hassle and expense of mailing/waiting on a package. Also for those with local dealers - bring it back and have them do it.

Note to self: Kras will probably NOT be participating in the cable sharing... :D

$20 MSRP turns into almost $30 when you add shipping and tax, that is why I turned to ebay.

For those looking at ebay for this cable, try "M1 to VGA Female w/ USB" or "SP-DVI-A-F". If you don't see any results, don't forget to look below on the page, ebay lists some items there that fit the description.

Of course, if you want to share the cable, just PM me. There are two people on the list and the cable and USB extension (the InFocus cable is only 6 inches long) will ship out to the first person on Monday.

George -bub

EEBuckeye

04-22-06, 09:30 PM

Will is hurt the projector if I have it sitting upside down on a shelf? It looks to be level with the IN72 I tried at Circuit City. :-)

Thanks!

Backlash

04-23-06, 01:46 AM

If they are listed as being unauthorized Infocus dealers, then they are just that. However, if they are listed as authorized dealers for other Infocus products, then they are authorized Infocus dealers. Period.

And that $20 for the cable to update your firmware is a joke. I'm sorry, it cost how much to make? Is it brought to you by the same people who bring you Monster Cable and $1500 interconnects that are so pretty you can show them off to your friends?

It's a bit of wire with a connector at the end, that we have to buy because in truth, the mfg. released a product that was not quite ready. If it's required to make the projector work properly as advertised then they should send it to me. At most charge the $2-3 for s/h. After all, how many of you would shell out $20 +s/h for both Service Pack 1 and SP2?

You know what, if they're going to insist that I pay $3K in order to honor my warranty (and stifle competition) then they ought to at least provide me with the ability to apply the necessary patches to their full-priced beta units.

Rant over.

JeffKB

04-23-06, 09:58 AM

You know what, if they're going to insist that I pay $3K in order to honor my warranty (and stifle competition) then they ought to at least provide me with the ability to apply the necessary patches to their full-priced beta units.

Why people continue to think this is just beyond me. To repeat for the 30th time - the MAP is the "minimum advertised price" and has nothing at all to do with the price the dealer may actually sell the projector for. It is just the minimum price they can advertise. They are free to sell it at whatever price they want - and they are. Dealers selling at a discount from MAP are easy to find.

As for having to buy a $20 cable to update your firmware - perhaps everyone would prefer the approach of just about every other PJ mfg out there. They make you send your projector back for firmware updates. And don't try to make the argument that other mfgs don't have initial firmware issues - just look at the Optoma reset issue on the HD72 and the PE7700/MT700 forced firmware updates. I'd be willing to bet those guys would rather go buy a cheap cable than send their projector away.

Dogwood

04-23-06, 10:22 AM

You know what, if they're going to insist that I pay $3K in order to honor my warranty (and stifle competition) then they ought to at least provide me with the ability to apply the necessary patches to their full-priced beta units.

Well said Jeff, I can't beleive this keeps coming up either. Strong discounts are there to be had that make this projector very competitive with other 720p units. Plus the good out of box settings make it an even better buy.

Backlash

04-23-06, 11:25 AM

Well Jeff, I'd actually prefer that they just refrain from using a propriatary cable. The X1 at least used a USBA-USBB for its updates which meant that all I had to do was unplug my printer and use its cable. What am I supposed to do with a VGA-USB? I know that the M1 portion of the cable has its uses, but for the majority of us I'm sure this is an added expense. (hence the sharing posts)

As for the pricing, I know that it can be had from authorized dealers for well below MAP, which is why I said what I did at the beginning of that post. It was a hint for others to search the authorized dealers list for other Infocus products. If you had been reading the previous posts, you'd see that I have been telling people this for a while. I happen to disagree with the MAP practice though, because it does keep dealers (like the powerbuy dealer) from offering a lower price to a group, or just a lower price in general. Sure you can "add to cart" and get to the lower price, but if you are to Froogle it or go through the online dealers list, at MAP, you have no reason to buy from one dealer over another. So even though one dealer may be willing to sell it to you for a little less, you'd never know without digging a bit deeper. So the practice benefits dealers who appear first on the list, or dealers that you've heard of before (name recognition) at the cost of those who want your business more.

bub

04-23-06, 11:46 AM

As for having to buy a $20 cable to update your firmware - perhaps everyone would prefer the approach of just about every other PJ mfg out there. They make you send your projector back for firmware updates. And don't try to make the argument that other mfgs don't have initial firmware issues - just look at the Optoma reset issue on the HD72 and the PE7700/MT700 forced firmware updates. I'd be willing to bet those guys would rather go buy a cheap cable than send their projector away.

I think just because other companies require you to send your projector in for firmware upgrades doesn't let InFocus off the hook. The INxx series retails between $1300 and $3000. I think there is room in there somewhere for InFocus to include the cable used for firmware upgrades. I doubt this cable, at least the 6 inch M1-D/VESA w/USB, cost InFocus more than a dollar or two to include it with each projector. And, why is everybody only quoting the price of this cable when tax and shipping move the price closer to $30 than $20?

And, while we are on the subject, if InFocus really feels the need for a M1-D port as one of their digital inputs instead of the more widely used DVI port, maybe they should include the M1-D>DVI adapter with each of their projectors as well.

I think it would cost InFocus $5 total to include the two cable/adapters mentioned and it not only would gain goodwill amongst their customers but save their customers perhaps as much as $50 or more as they wouldn't have to buy these two items retail.

Of course, spending $25-$30 for the cable is much better than having to ship your projector in for service, but including the cable would be even better than having to purchase an additional item for the sole purpose of upgrading your firmware, especially as Kras noted, InFocus knows there will be firmware upgrades needed to keep their projectors functioning properly. I would bet money that because the cable is not included, many owners never upgrade their firmeware and ultimately I would also bet money that this cost InFocus real money in unnecessary customer interactions including increased calls to tech support and increased returns for service.

Just my two cents...
George -bub

bthorn9435

04-23-06, 12:18 PM

I must say the cable issue doesn't bother me all that much but what did make me upset was the fact that if I kept the Optoma I would have to send it in for the update. Now I don't no about "use" guys but theres no way in hades that I would do this. I am very happy to be back on board with infocus at least they provide the software so you can update unlike Optoma.

JeffKB

04-23-06, 01:31 PM

I would bet money that because the cable is not included, many owners never upgrade their firmeware and ultimately I would also bet money that this cost InFocus real money in unnecessary customer interactions including increased calls to tech support and increased returns for service.

And I would bet that the reason InFocus is not including the USB-M1 cable is that their stats tell them very few owners actually update the firmware even when the cable is supplied.

Keep in mind InFocus has included the cable for past projectors. The 4805 came with a USB-M1 cable included. Why stop including it now? Well, InFocus knows the number of owners who actually download firmware updates. They also know their costs of supplying a cable with each projector. They probably looked at the costs of providing the cable compared to the percentage of owners actually using it and decided the cost wasn't justified. I don't know what InFocus' cost for the cable is, but I'd bet it's at least $5. If you ship 300,000 units worldwide (my SWAG) and only a small percentage of people do the firmware upgrade, you just cost yourself potentially $1 million+ to the bottom line. Of course that's guesswork and conjecture on my part, but I think my scenario makes more sense than your scenario - which has InFocus just trying to pinch a few pennies at the expense of their entire customer base.

Same thing with including a m1-DVI adapter. Since the new PJs have an HDMI port, how many people are actually going to use the M1? And how many want to use it for DVI vs HDMI? Should they include both sets of adapters, even though a great many adapters will never be used by their owners? How much lost profit would that represent?

Yes I agree it would be nice if the cable was included. And yes it would be nice if the cable used a more common connector. But I still think we're missing the big picture here. The big picture is that the user CAN update the firmware on his/her own. That's a great feature and a definite advantage of owning an InFocus projector versus a different mfgs. The fact that you have to spend a small amount of money to take advantage of that great benefit is not a big deal IMO.

:)

bub

04-23-06, 01:47 PM

Point well made Jeff.

And I would bet that the reason InFocus is not including the USB-M1 cable is that their stats tell them very few owners actually update the firmware even when the cable is supplied.

Keep in mind InFocus has included the cable for past projectors. The 4805 came with a USB-M1 cable included. Why stop including it now? Well, InFocus knows the number of owners who actually download firmware updates. They also know their costs of supplying a cable with each projector. They probably looked at the costs of providing the cable compared to the percentage of owners actually using it and decided the cost wasn't justified. I don't know what InFocus' cost for the cable is, but I'd bet it's at least $5. If you ship 300,000 units worldwide (my SWAG) and only a small percentage of people do the firmware upgrade, you just cost yourself potentially $1 million+ to the bottom line. Of course that's guesswork and conjecture on my part, but I think my scenario makes more sense than your scenario - which has InFocus just trying to pinch a few pennies at the expense of their entire customer base.

Same thing with including a m1-DVI adapter. Since the new PJs have an HDMI port, how many people are actually going to use the M1? And how many want to use it for DVI vs HDMI? Should they include both sets of adapters, even though a great many adapters will never be used by their owners? How much lost profit would that represent?

Yes I agree it would be nice if the cable was included. And yes it would be nice if the cable used a more common connector. But I still think we're missing the big picture here. The big picture is that the user CAN update the firmware on his/her own. That's a great feature and a definite advantage of owning an InFocus projector versus a different mfgs. The fact that you have to spend a small amount of money to take advantage of that great benefit is not a big deal IMO.

:)

Backlash

04-23-06, 02:01 PM

In that case maybe Infocus should share the cable as well. You request one from them, and they send it to you. When the next person requests one, Infocus sends you the person's address, and you pay the shipping. And so on, etc. That way each firmware update costs $3. Are there going to be 10 updates? Since there were maybe 2 for the X1 that I know of, you're out $6, not $30.

It may not seem feasible, but it seems that it's exactly what bub's proposing. If I had a 76, I'd certainly be participating. Unfortunately the PJ is about $300 off my price point.

Backlash

04-23-06, 02:11 PM

JeffKB

04-23-06, 03:25 PM

Oh, and so much for the authorized online dealers selling for below MAP. I just checked them all again, and they've all been bumped back up to $2999. I wonder who pressured them into that?

So Jeff, any comments now about them forcing the $3K issue?
Hi Backlash,

Better yet, why don't you give your take on things. Are you saying you think InFocus is illegally coercing dealers into selling the new projectors at full MAP? You're welcome to believe that if you want, but I don't.

Once again I will reiterate that MAP rules prevent a dealer from advertising below a certain price - they do not affect the ability of the dealer to sell the projector for whatever price he sees fit. If a MAP-abiding site has raised their selling price recently, then it was entirely their choice. MAP rules exist to protect dealers, not to create extra profit for InFocus. Think about it. InFocus has already made their money by the time the dealer takes inventory. Whether that dealer makes $100 profit or $1000 profit on that projector doesn't change InFocus' stake. Matter of fact, InFocus would probably love to see more projectors sold at cheaper prices rather than fewer at higher prices - it means more dealer orders for them.

MAP rules exist to protect those online and local dealers who wish to charge the full MAP - those dealers don't have to worry about overt price undercutting. That doesn't mean everyone sells at the same price, it just levels the playing field a bit. A dealer can communicate a better price to you - he just needs to have you go to a secure section of the webpage (cart, login area, etc) or he needs to tell you directly (ex phone).

I don't know what websites you're checking, but the ones I watch that were selling at MAP before are still selling at MAP, and those that were selling below MAP are still selling below MAP (abiding by MAP rules of course).

Boy - I think the InFocus PR department should start sending me checks. I feel like I work for them! :D

PLB

04-23-06, 03:33 PM

I think a IN76 is a reasonable upgrade from an X1 in a way that a 4805 never was. The deciding factor for me is projection screen size.

A 4805 and an X1 have essentially the same DVD performance except for the digital inputs. Th 4805 has 13% more pixels to display but these are on the edges where they don't matter all that much. On broadcast 4:3 material the X1 is capable of a much bigger image from my 16' projection distance - eight by six feet. A new IN76 can project almost as big a 4:3 image as a subset of a big 16:9 image.

I figure between old movies, TV, and Comcast OnDemand at least a third of what I watch is still 4:3. This material looks better to me when its big. The 4805 just wasn't capable of delivering a truly large image.

Using the InFocus calculator - The new IN76 is capable of projecting in my room a 16:9 image with 8850 square inches whereas the 4805 can only acheive 6600 square inches. This 33% bigger screen size means you can have a decent 4:3 subset image. The 4805 4:3 subset of its native 16:9 image is simple too small for a program mix that today includes so much 4:3 material. No doubt when Comcast OnDemand broadcasts everything in 16:9 HD this will be less important, but today you need a 4:3 image to be as close to six feet tall as possible IMHO. The new IN76 can produce that in my room the 4805 can't.

JeffKB

04-23-06, 03:50 PM

A 4805 and an X1 have essentially the same DVD performance except for the digital inputs.
I must have woken up in an opiniated mood this morning, 'cause I'm on a roll. :D

I have to disagree with your assessment there. I've had both the 4805 and X1 in my HT, and IMO the 4805 is an obvious and substantial upgrade to the X1 in areas of contrast and color saturation - especially the latter.

As you mentioned however, the X1 can definitely produce larger 4:3 images, if that's important.

Anyway, I'll take a break for awhile - I'm thinking I'll go get myself a copy of "King King" to watch on the IN76 tonight.

:)

Backlash

04-23-06, 04:17 PM

Well lets see. Onsale.com used to be an authorized dealer and were selling for $1999, but have since been dropped from the dealer list, and have changed their price back to $2999, and ecost.com is still listed, but have changed from $2100 to $2999 in the last couple weeks.

If you go through the All Buying Options link on the Infocus site for any number of projectors and accessories you'll see that adding the unit to the cart now keeps the price at MAP. Yes, I can find it through Froogle for quite a bit less from some sites (by adding to the cart), but just because they aren't listed in the list of bad dealers, doesn't mean that Infocus will validate any warranty claims. There is a grey area there. The only dealers listed through Infocus.com are selling for full MAP, the unauthorized dealers aren't worth bothering with, and the one's in the middle could probably be disputed by Infocus simply because they aren't in the first category.

I think there is a good chance that they are trying to set this up as almost a boutique only item like B&W (or Arai helmets) Sure you can find them other places for less, but because the dealer isn't making as much profit (even though, like you say Infocus has already made their money) somehow we the consumer have no warranty protection. All so that they can ensure that the customers are directed towards properly trained and knowledgeable dealers.

In my experience, a lot of these trained dealers don't know any more than the warehouse style or drop-ship middle men. Seriously, Circuit City is listed as an authorized dealer and we know what kind of expertise (and price inflation) comes from there. What they have done though is agree to the MAP policy.

Like I said though, I've gone through the links from Infocus and how strange is it then that they all sell for MAP? Isn't that tantamount to price-fixing?
Plus, if Infocus is willing to sell to these grey-area dealers, how can they not keep the warranty intact?

But I guess the bottom line is are these non IF.com-listed dealers "authorized"? I know that I can call IF to find out, but after what they did to onsale.com dropping them from the site even after the cost came back up to MAP, is it worth it?

JeffKB

04-23-06, 07:24 PM

But I guess the bottom line is are these non IF.com-listed dealers "authorized"? I know that I can call IF to find out, but after what they did to onsale.com dropping them from the site even after the cost came back up to MAP, is it worth it?
The "All Buying Options" online dealer list at the InFocus website is not a complete list of authorized dealers. If it were, AVS would not be authorized to sell the INxx series since they're not listed, and I don't for a minute believe that's true. Besides, bub is living proof that they're authorized because he had not one, but two projectors replaced under warranty and he bought from Jason.

Is InFocus intentionally listing in the "All Buying Options" link only those online dealers who are selling at MAP? I don't know, maybe. Even if they were however, that hardly constitues price fixing. If they did link to some of the dealers offering discounts, wouldn't that raise the ire of the MAP dealers? It could just be another way of offering MAP dealers some protection. Then again, they may just be linking to the large internet dealers and those guys almost always sell for full MAP.

I wouldn't buy from any dealer not adhering to MAP rules, or off eBay or Audiogon, but if an online dealer is adhering to MAP you're probably safe. An unauthorized dealer's hook is the selling price. They don't want you to work to get it - they want it front and center. For all the gnashing of teeth about authorized dealers and warranty coverage, I have never once in my 3+ years of closely following this forum, read of an instance of InFocus refusing warranty coverage because of a purchase at an unauthorized dealer. If unauthorized dealers are that rampant, and InFocus that tough, shouldn't I have read by now of some complaining owner who was denied coverage?

Again, I'm not saying run out to one of those shady NYC scam houses or one of the dealers on the official unauthorized list, but there's no need to be completely paranoid either. Do due deligence and research your potential dealer, but rest assured there are legit dealers out there offering very good discounts.

I also disagree that InFocus is positioning the INxx series as a boutique line. That's clearly not the case - just look at the wide distribution these projectors are getting and the varied types of dealers. Unlike the 7205/7210, which clearly are boutique models, the INxx series is a "value" line meant to be widely sold via online and B&M outlets.

Backlash

04-23-06, 07:47 PM

Fair enough.
Thanks Jeff.

billymac

04-23-06, 07:59 PM

wow, this is sad. not enough owners out there chiming in. too much bad ju ju. doesn't anybody have anything nice to say. so many haters.

lol jeffkb. :)

JeffKB

04-23-06, 08:28 PM

kevivoe

04-23-06, 08:41 PM

backlash - I sent you a PM, maybe it will help you out. :)

All rightee then - "the man with an opinion on everything" is now leaving the building! I'm off to get my kids to bed (hopefully quickly) and then plan to settle in to watch "King Kong". Should be perfect projector fare.

Have any of you tried an HD-A1 (HD-DVD player) with the IN76? I guess even the upconverting on SD-DVD's is a large improvement. The only reason I ask is I have not been able to find one (HD-A1) after looking around local stores for the past few days. They stock a few units and they are gone in an hour I am told. After watching HD TV on the IN76 I definitely want HD-DVD. Good reviews online with HD-A1 and IN76 also.

k

billymac

04-23-06, 10:38 PM

Have any of you tried an HD-A1 (HD-DVD player) with the IN76? I guess even the upconverting on SD-DVD's is a large improvement. The only reason I ask is I have not been able to find one (HD-A1) after looking around local stores for the past few days. They stock a few units and they are gone in an hour I am told. After watching HD TV on the IN76 I definitely want HD-DVD. Good reviews online with HD-A1 and IN76 also.

k

curious to know myself. i'm not going to chunk down five bills though. hoping they drop at end of summer.

cheezmo1

04-24-06, 04:24 PM

curious to know myself. i'm not going to chunk down five bills though. hoping they drop at end of summer.
Didn't want to make this "back in my day" post, but I bought my first DVD player that was a panasonic for 5 bills. I thought it was a good deal considering most everyone was using vcr's. It took about a year for that to drop though.

kin_ng5

04-24-06, 08:30 PM

Can anyone post links for the Infocus authorized dealers or links for the black-listed dealers please. I couldn't find them on their site.

Backlash

04-24-06, 10:51 PM

krasmuzik

04-24-06, 11:23 PM

The HD-A1 can be found in stock online.

Bad dealers: http://www.infocus.com/deauthorized/index.htm

Good Dealers, anyone else not on the list who also follows MAP policy I guess.
or try this link: http://www.infocus.com/Products/Projectors/SP4805.aspx and click on All Buying Options. That's the most complete list I could find on their site.

Actually you should click on the IN76 page for a current listing. It is entirely possible that a site that carried SP4805 no longer wants to carry Infocus - and thus never went thru sales training on the IN76 and thus did not get listed. (Indeed IN76 online dealer list is half the size of the SP4805 list). And it is also possible that a site listing SP4805 is doing special closeout or refurb deals - and cannot get any other model.

kin_ng5

04-24-06, 11:58 PM

I am sad to report that none of the All Buying Options dealers have a discounted IN76. I could only find one that advertised at MAP and sell much lower but the dealer is in neither list. I guess I just have to wait...or if I can't stand it, buy the HD72 instead.

Backlash

04-25-06, 12:18 AM

Just search froogle. If it's listed at MAP, add it to your cart and see what happens.

And Kras, if a 4805 authorized dealer carries a 7x, I'm guessing they're still authorized. (plus none of the 4805 dealers are on the black list) I provided that link because it's the model with the most number of links from the Infocus site.

krasmuzik

04-25-06, 12:21 AM

kin_ng5

Are you saying you called them up and said I am an AVS member for three years - gimmee your best AVS deal - and they said $2999?! Not even threw you a bone with a free mount? Did you butter them up saying how great it is they sponsor the forum with their banner? There is one vendor on the list famous for their colorful mail order catalog and excellent pre/post sales support - the only online vendor authorized for SP7210. What you say certainly would be true of them - as they pay for all that with MSRP.

krasmuzik

04-25-06, 12:25 AM

BackLash

That may be the case that they can place an order with Infocus - but the search list certainly is model specific - so I can only assume some are not on there because they do not want to be. Last summer if krasmuzik was to remain on the list - I had to resend in the dealer contract - and again this winter if I wanted to sell the new stuff had to complete sales training at HQ. I check the local dealer list every other month - and it is constantly being updated (now five within 15m). Infocus calls every quarter to verify dealer support as well. On top of all that - to avoid the clueless salesperson you meet - every salesperson in each company has the opportunity to get certified on each model online - they even make you pass a quiz (actually two quizzes - an easy sales quiz and a tough technical quiz) to get the certificate. They took a lot of flack in past years from customers because you would call someone on the dealer list - and they would have no clue what an Infocus was - so they really deserve kudos for restricting the list to those who actually want to sell and are knowledgable about Infocus. It is in their best interest to do so. Maybe it is just oversight on both parties not getting renewed on the list - I dunno.

Jed M

04-25-06, 12:55 AM

kin_ng5, I sent you a PM.

kevivoe

04-25-06, 09:13 AM

The HD-A1 can be found in stock online.

Online is not the same as calling them, holding for 25 minutes, and then find out they are back ordered. I won't be doing that again. Most of the "stock" is "Oh, we need to update our web site" excuse. "They'll ship next week and if you pay for 1 day air you have it in 8 days"

Doesn't sound like 1 day air to me.

I can wait another week as I am away on business. I only need the HD-DVD by mid-May since that is when we have a huge movie night planned. I was hoping for King Kong on HD-DVD but that does not look like it's going to happen.

k

kevivoe

04-25-06, 03:59 PM

I walked up close to a paused movie (Shrek, sceen at night with Donkey looking at the stars).

The night time sky, up close say 2 feet from the screen, looked like the matrix monitors. There is "dark green noise" or something like kanji characters in the very dark parts of the scene. If you back up to 1x screen width you can't see them. It tends to lighten up the blacks I guess.

Is this "noise" in the projected blacks? I can imagine that a dark green segment in the color wheel would help darken these "kanji characters" I am seeing in the projected black of this movie anyway.

Anyone else with a recent 720p PJ see this? I have the IN76.

k

ssj2

04-25-06, 04:04 PM

Kevivoe, it sounds like you're describing "dithering". An extra dark green segment can help with tis.

bubbawilly

04-25-06, 04:05 PM

I'm pretty sure this is how most DLP's make "black." I believe that it is a dithering artifact from the G in the colorwheel that contributes to black.

I've also heard it referred to as "green worms." I've seen it on a BenQ 7700, a Sharp z2000, and an IF 7205.

krasmuzik

04-25-06, 04:48 PM

This is why you spend more for a SP7210 - increased bandwidth with DarkChip3, combined with improved bit depth of the neutral density green segment on the colorwheel. While you can only see it close to the screen - at the seating distance it makes a difference in perceived depth and contrast.

Varying the gamma will trade off your level of black detail (and thus dithering) - but make sure you are properly calibrated first.

With the SP7210 it no longer works as easy cause you cannot see dithering - but with six segment and DC2 you can use dithering to help calibrate. Using the THX black level adjustment - vary the brightness control until the blackground and the dropshadow are just same and not dithering. Do it up close so you can see the dithering when you are too high. If you have DVE/AVIA - use the pluge pattern without the white on screen so your eyes can adapt. If your eyes are well adapted and you have good night vision - you might also see the blue dithering. Red does not seem to dither - it just changes the shade of black. When professionally calibrating - I adjust my RGB offsets rather than brightness to make sure I maximize contrast, minimize dithering while still hitting D65.

Another trick is set your source and projector for 4:3 - and align the black levels of the letter/pillar boxes - making sure they are not dithering.

Of course bad DVD's have their own artifact that is similar - the mosquito noise of MPEG compression. Combine that with dark DLP dithering - and it makes it even worse.

NoThru22

04-25-06, 05:48 PM

Of course bad DVD's have their own artifact that is similar - the mosquito noise of MPEG compression. Combine that with dark DLP dithering - and it makes it even worse.
This is why I'm hoping beyond hope that the new HD DVDs and Blu-rays eliminate macroblocking alltogether!

krasmuzik

04-25-06, 06:50 PM

Acutally mosquito and macroblocking are different artifacts - but they both relate to MPEG compression - so it depends on the codec and compression amount used in high-def if it goes away/ I don't think it has gone away in the HD movie channels - even though they are generally better than regular channels. I was watching the other night a movie that had two heads talking - one moving the other not. it was fascinating - the bandwidth was so low that the moving head macroblocked drastically to the point of being an abstract painting - yet the still head was very sharp and detailed!

macroblocking is because the block of pixels compressed as a unit gets compressed differently than it's neighbor so that you see the edges of the blocks = and usually because high frequency detail is compressed away. mosquito noise is usually because poor compression cannot properly match high frequency detailed edges - and each frame is different resulting in swarms. crawlies from DLP look entirely different to the trained eye - it is the chips compensating for DMD bandwidth issues by dithering spatially and temporally.

See this brochure for good pictures of the artifacts.

http://www.algolith.com/fileadmin/HomeTheater/MosquitoHDMI/Mosquito%20Brochure-proof6.pdf

Most of these artifacts are not noticeable on low bandwidth tube TVs - but get yourself a 9' wide moviescreen - very noticeable!

cavu

04-25-06, 07:11 PM

Haven't been generally following events on AVS for the last couple of weeks while travelling and didn't know if you all had seen this IN76 review (http://gear.ign.com/articles/701/701496p1.html).

Wireless from Wellington NZ

Martin Butler

04-25-06, 09:15 PM

Nice review, thanks Cavu.

kevivoe

04-25-06, 10:50 PM

krasmuzik

04-26-06, 01:10 AM

kevivoe

I have seen SP7205 vs. SP7210 and SP7210 vs. IN76 - and I think the colorwheel and DC3 makes a big difference. I don't think it hits you until you do the side by sides. There is indeed a reason that higher end units command their price. I was pushing the SP7205 over the SP7210 (even with my SP7210 demo) because I did not see the value until I did the side by side comparisons at a local meet. Everyone agreed the SP7210 was better - more depth - even though contrast measure was only slightly better. That is the DC3 bandwidth. Value is in the eye of the beholder - law of diminishing returns says nothing twice the price is twice as good. However if Infocus thought nobody would see the difference or think it was worth paying for it - then the SP7210 and SP777 would have been withdrawn from the market. Having seen the shootout between IN72 and SP777 - at >10x the price - it certainly is worth paying for if you gotta go all out - but the IN72 is certainly better than 10% of a SP777.

The holdouts waiting for 1080P are going to be the same ones holding off from 1080P when digital cinema decides to move on from 2K and 4K chips to the new holodecks or whatever they need to get people into the theaters again. Innovation never ends. Digital goods never can last. Get on the train enjoy the ride - engine or caboose does not matter.

I don't follow the HD72 thread - are you saying people flipped it already? Maybe you should convince one of them to upgrade to your IN76 - and you can flip up to a SP7210. Heck go all the way and flip up to the SP777 - now that is something worth upgrading too!

There have been a few in the SP4805 thread that got bit by the bug - and now you never see them in the cheaper projector forum - they hang out in that spendy forum - chasing the latest greatest hype. Personally even though I am in the biz - it makes me ill to see people flipping projectors like that. Learn to enjoy what you have and what you can afford - it is about movies not technology - and some of these guys never seem to watch any movies.

But I guess the loss price on ebay for used goods and the list price for new release goods - some people like to pay that margin be on the bleeding edge. Didn't someone you know personally just post that they cannot get their HD-DVD player this week yet already? Even though the format has been out for all of a microsecond with maybe one movie worth watching?

Have any of you tried an HD-A1 (HD-DVD player) with the IN76? I guess even the upconverting on SD-DVD's is a large improvement. The only reason I ask is I have not been able to find one (HD-A1) after looking around local stores for the past few days. They stock a few units and they are gone in an hour I am told. After watching HD TV on the IN76 I definitely want HD-DVD. Good reviews online with HD-A1 and IN76 also.

k

:D

As far as this forum is concerned with it's MSRP rules the ugprade fee for IN76 - consider half price for $3K used goods is $1.5K - and rebate MSRP of SP7210 is $6K - that would be $4500 upgrade fee. Or 3x what your used gear is worth.

Though I doubt you get a dealer to pay you half price - I tried to flip some old Thiel speakers at the local dealer - they were going to give me 20% of MSRP. So that puts you at 10% off SP7210 since that is all you can get (which is not far off on % - just compare refurb SP4805s now vs. new SP4805 a couple years ago). Which means you add in the $3K already spent on the IN76 - you are a proud owner of SP7210 for $8400 just because you flipped up. Heck the Runco VX1 I paid $15K seven years ago - probably would be a tradein for a SP4805 refurb now!

Now if you can explain to me why the $3500 curtains I just paid for are better than $350 drapes we had - you are a better husband than I. She mentioned they were on 50% sale so we had to buy them. And they were for me anyways so I could show off upgraded projectors better. Ok I knew that was an argument I would lose - so we bought the drapes. New ones are green with ribbons that match the rug - old ones were textured green and apparently did not match. I don't get it. Does anyone think there is an equivalent drapery forum that the WAF is chatting on all day - plotting out their upgrades?

kevivoe

04-26-06, 09:08 AM

That's a pretty steep price. I like the looks of the IN76 and SP777 so I will stay "in the black" for some time.

With the picture I am getting now on the IN76 I don't see myself winning an upgrade arguement at this time. Perhaps when the IN78 is on the street ....

k

price3

04-26-06, 09:12 AM

LOL Kras.

By the way, the first person wanting to upgrade from the IN76 for 50% off retail give me a message and I'll be right there.

krasmuzik

04-26-06, 05:52 PM

Projectors are like cars - nearly as expensive - and worth half what you paid as soon as you drive them off the lot.

I just cleaned out my yard shed hoping to make a fortune on old yard equipment on Craigslist. My wife could not read my writing - and I sold a $380 brush hog for $110. $100 weed wacker for $25. $280 gas powered edger/tiller for $75. Everyone wants to dicker below half for used goods - I was hoping for at least half. Oh well I got some cash to go buy more yard toys! Same stuff had been in two yard sales and never sold - I had everything sold the same weekend my ad went up!

DanC-P

04-27-06, 03:48 PM

Learn to enjoy what you have and what you can afford - it is about movies not technology - and some of these guys never seem to watch any movies.

Isn't that the weirdest thing? It reminds me of the ham radio freaks who spend huge sums to be able to contact people in the most remote corners of the world so they can talk about... their equipment and signal strength.

krasmuzik

04-27-06, 04:03 PM

Browse the DVD movies forum sometimes and notice those posting? Completely different crowd than those posting to the projector forums!

Tnedator

04-27-06, 07:06 PM

Ok, my IN76 will arrive on Monday. I have a question for down the road.

I do not currently have HDTV. DirecTV (current subscriber) and Dish are my only HDTV options in this area. Cox cable (about to be sold to another cable company) does not offer HDTV in my area.

I am probably going to pull the trigger and get a DirecTV HD DVR. My question is about how much difference there will be in the image quality if I use component cables from the HD receiver versus using HDMI? Currently, I do not have an HDMI cable run and my receiver does not support HDMI, and I am wondering how much of a difference there will be, which will help me decide if I want to upgrade the receiver and run an HDMI cable.

price3

04-28-06, 11:00 AM

There is no visible difference to me between the component and HDMI outputs on the Hd Tivo.

claw

04-28-06, 02:19 PM

Ordered an IN76 and it was shipped from Port Orchard today and should arrive Tuesday.

This is my first projector and it will replace a Samsung DLP RPTV in my media room. I plan on doing the install myself.

I know this is a dumb question, but is there any consensus on what the best ceiling mount would be? I figure I will need a drop of about 5.5" from my 8' 8" ceiling to the center of the lens to place a 110" screen at 36" off the floor based on the 16% offset.

104 - (1.16*54) - 36 = 5.36

krasmuzik

04-28-06, 02:56 PM

As we discussed earlier - the Chief mount is so far found to be the most flush and is right about that drop. With Premier mounts universal - about 6-7". Maybe 5" if you get the custom plate.

3' from floor is fairly high though - ideally you want your eye between third and half up the screen - not at the bottom. 3' is not really high enough for kids - are you trying to work around a center channel?

madpoet

04-28-06, 04:01 PM

There is no visible difference to me between the component and HDMI outputs on the Hd Tivo.

To be honest, most people think the component quality is better (myself included)

krasmuzik

04-28-06, 04:18 PM

To be honest, most people think the component quality is better (myself included)

I think this is true of TV settop boxes in general - the digital out is legally mandated - the box is OEM sole sourced. The service providers do not want to train installers how to connect the digital outputs - they barely have them even trained for component outputs - you are lucky that they don't hook your HDTV up with composite video. There is no market competition, there is no service provider incentive. Why would they make a quality digital out? I await the day some Hollywood bigwig says turn off the analog outs with my movies - and the firestorm erupts - because all of the TV settop boxes have the capability to do this.

DVD players with HDMI have market competition working for them to use good deinterlacers/scalers. I am still waiting for the one that sends the raw media signal out for better display or scaler processing. Everyone on AVS always discusses the latest greatest player and does it have a good chipset?. Compare this with TV settop boxes - where even the manufacturer has no idea what is in there.

claw

04-28-06, 04:45 PM

3' from floor is fairly high though - ideally you want your eye between third and half up the screen - not at the bottom

I know.. but I don't sit upright very often. I thought from a reclining position it might be better to have it a little higher.

Guess the best would be a mount that would be adjustable between 5.5" and 11.5" to yield 30 - 36" screen distances from the floor so I can experiment.

NoThru22

04-28-06, 05:51 PM

I thought there was a small but noticeable improvement when I finally got my HDMI working on my HD Tivo. You can now get 1:1 pixel mapping and the colors seemed more vibrant, especially in gradients that had previously looked like just a single color (sky, etc.)

krasmuzik

04-28-06, 06:16 PM

claw

Adjustable would be your Premier mount - it ships with the adjustable extension bracket - which you take off if you want the flush mount. I break the rules myself with the above fireplace displays - always cautioning they will want a recliner to raise their eye line.

madpoet

04-28-06, 08:31 PM

Somewhat OT, but I helped a friend put a plasma over his fireplace the other day. It was jacked up so high that the very bottom of the screen was actually above my head at 5'7. Sitting down it was darn near impossible to watch for any length of time.

crussader

04-28-06, 10:01 PM

I've got the bottom of my 106" screen at 32". I don't have a choice about that, but I've found that I like that location. It seems very "theater like" to look up a little bit. Of course I'm one of those that always sat in the front half of the theater.

krasmuzik

04-28-06, 11:39 PM

I always wanted to do an install over the bed - much like that scary phillips plasma commercial. Hide the projector behind the headboard.

EEBuckeye

04-29-06, 01:06 AM

Would I have any problem if I installed this projector upside down on a shelf? I would make sure it does not move.

Also, does the 1 year warranty bother anyone else when other manufacturers offer 2 year?

Thanks!

Jim McC

04-29-06, 01:24 AM

Yes, the 1 year warranty bothers me. Now Infocus is down on the bottom with Panasonic with their 1 year warranty.

krasmuzik

04-29-06, 04:25 AM

madpoet

04-29-06, 08:23 AM

Rejoining the digital crowd for a bit ;). I bought Eric's IN76 (the Knoll version). Looking forward to checking it out. It likely will end up at my father's place, but while I work on my CRT it will let me keep watching movies on the big screen ;)

Tnedator

04-29-06, 10:01 AM

It is only 5% (assuming IN76) to upgrade to a another year of Infocus warranty - Infocus has simplified their warranty offerings recently - you buy what you need/want. Cost about as much as a mount - make a package deal...

http://store.infocus.com/escalate/store/CategoryPage?pls=infocus&bc=infocus&cc=Extended+Warranties&clist=017080322b7d&ret=Extended+Warranties&startNum=0&rangeNum=10

The top of the projector is not flat - and it has buttons on top. The projector needs to be 16% of your screen height above your screen - you have a shelf that high?

Ok, what's the difference between regular extended and priority exchange? It doesn't sound like they ship the exchange unit out first, but instead upon receiving your unit will ship you a 'like new' unit immediately, where as with the regular extended warranty they would examine and repair your own unit? Is this right?

Since I will be putting around 2,500 hours a year on my projector, you guys think it is worth the extra $80 (for two additional years) to get priority exchange, so if my unit fails, it will be replaced with a 'like new' unit, rather than have my unit with 3000, 4000 or possibly 6000 hours returned to me?

EEBuckeye

04-29-06, 10:03 AM

The top of the projector is not flat - and it has buttons on top. The projector needs to be 16% of your screen height above your screen - you have a shelf that high?

I actually have a bookshelf that is really tall and I can make adjustments with the top shelf. I know it sounds kinda strange, but I do not want to mess with a ceiling mount for now. The plan is to move everything to the basement. My biggest concern is heat since I can make the projector level but the fan would not be blocked at all.

LCDGUY

04-29-06, 02:04 PM

Your credit card will usually give you an additional year for free..... Definately worth checking before you buy. Definately AMEX, most VISA/MC, not discover.
Yes, the 1 year warranty bothers me. Now Infocus is down on the bottom with Panasonic with their 1 year warranty.

krasmuzik

04-29-06, 02:21 PM

Ok, what's the difference between regular extended and priority exchange? It doesn't sound like they ship the exchange unit out first, but instead upon receiving your unit will ship you a 'like new' unit immediately, where as with the regular extended warranty they would examine and repair your own unit? Is this right?

Since I will be putting around 2,500 hours a year on my projector, you guys think it is worth the extra $80 (for two additional years) to get priority exchange, so if my unit fails, it will be replaced with a 'like new' unit, rather than have my unit with 3000, 4000 or possibly 6000 hours returned to me?

Good question - these used to not be offered on HT units - only mission critical biz units. I guess part of the streamlining is the same warranty everywhere. But I have to say I have not read the fine print of the PE warranty as it was never possible to offer it before. But looks like you can get three years of exchanges if you want?! The regular warranty is exchanges at their discretion - i.e. if they determine it is unrepairable or cheaper to replace. So I guess this just guarantees exchange.

I don't bother offering the other warranties other than year extensions. My local customers get the "krasmuzik will loan me his new demo while mine is in the shop" warranty - hoping for an upgrade sale :D

Like all insurance - the more you use something - the better insurance you should have. My biz vehicle insurance is sky high because of all the extra liability and property coverage - and the fact that real-estate agents that cannot drive their spendy SUV increase the rate category :(

They used to have a spare-in-the-air warranty that is like you describe - guess that one is gone.

Looks like they withdrew the longer lamp warranties - must have been too popular with the heavy hours crowd. Could not figure out the math on that one - a three year lamp warranty pretty much gurantees a replacement for everyone!

krasmuzik

04-29-06, 02:23 PM

I actually have a bookshelf that is really tall and I can make adjustments with the top shelf. I know it sounds kinda strange, but I do not want to mess with a ceiling mount for now. The plan is to move everything to the basement. My biggest concern is heat since I can make the projector level but the fan would not be blocked at all.

Is there at least two feet from the sides of the bookshelves. Blocking is an issue - but so is baffling.

jvos

04-29-06, 04:25 PM

I actually have a bookshelf that is really tall and I can make adjustments with the top shelf. I know it sounds kinda strange, but I do not want to mess with a ceiling mount for now. The plan is to move everything to the basement. My biggest concern is heat since I can make the projector level but the fan would not be blocked at all.

Why don't you attach it to the bottom of a shelf? Screw thru the shelf.

EEBuckeye

04-29-06, 11:02 PM

Why don't you attach it to the bottom of a shelf? Screw thru the shelf.

I thought about that, but I would not have 2 ft clearance where the fan is located. I have plenty of room on either side if I sit it on top.

madpoet

04-30-06, 07:04 AM

Anyone know how deep the recess of the lens is on the 76? I'm evaluating whether I can use an anamorphic lens on it. Also, does it have a mode to stretch 2.35:1 to full panel 16x9 for use with the lens or will I need an external scaler?

dmcdayton

04-30-06, 09:10 AM

I am not sure I understand the complaints about 1 year warranty. Sure its a drop from 2 years (or whatever it was in past) but aren't most Consumer Electronics only warranted for 1 year or less anyway?

This decision, as with most all the decisions I see made with the INXX line, is consistent and logical if Infocus wants to compete and make money in the CE rather than HT Enthusiast market.

Their stock has been struggling over the past few years so I'm sure they are looking to make money where they can without sacrificing sales. If only their marketing and management teams were as savvy as their engineers...

Though I do think their new print ads (Wired, Other tech mags) strike the right tone, I think they can capture a chunk of the gaming market.

Kras, do dealers focus on or offer packages for "gaming"?

Most parents would love to get the games out of the family room anyway. Need some type of standardized mounting system, portable, put in back of 12'x10' bedroom/office/dorm and project on wall. I am not sure how the Epson "all in one" units have been selling...thought that was interesting approach.

krasmuzik

04-30-06, 01:31 PM

Yep Infocus sent dealers their marketing analysis of potential customer base - including the technique of the mock customer profile. I just have to rip this from their presentation as I think it is dead on and funny at the same time.

"
Indulgent Young Man (New Home User)
Profile: Stone, age 27
Mortgage Broker
Drinks Red Bull® and Vodka, trying very hard to stop wearing baseball caps backwards
"
So you can see why they placed ads in Wired...

I had my sales kiosk in an internet gaming shop - no light control - few sales beyond - hey I saw that at CostCo - can this guy set me up?. There is an other one that is more of a teen/college hangout that has classic standup and current consoles and PC gaming that I might try - more of a darker arcade - and the guy that owns it fits that desription to a T. Being that I am a clueless early GenX/BB born in Vietnam war era - I should learn how to TXT message these kids out there or something! So if anyone fits that description above - tell me how to cross the generation gap!

I think dedicated HT rooms are going to morph into dedicated gaming rooms - I had that setup years ago - no better rush than RidgeRacer in a home made gocart driving simulator on an 8'x6' screen - and that was early PS2. Imagine XBOX360 10' widescreen!

Entry level package of IN72 with the table mount, Dalite pullup TheaterLite screen, and a cheap HTiB from HK - can be done for $2K or so. Upgrade to ceiling mount IN76, pulldown and a nice receiver around $4K. And you got it right - we AVSers are the geeky AV type who have the unusual hobby of hanging out online to discuss this stuff. Normal guys don't do that - they are out raving and skateboarding according to Infocus.

I find it especially ironic that the ones who whisper conspiracy theories about high prices are the first ones to complain when cost corners are cut to make things fit into a consumer commodity market. Have you checked into the warranty on a Dell lately - 90d unless you checkout with the extra warranty amongst the other extras they try to get you to throw into your checkout basket. Service exists still in a commodity market - you just have to pay extra for it.

Jed M

04-30-06, 02:06 PM

"
Indulgent Young Man (New Home User)
Profile: Stone, age 27
Mortgage Broker
Drinks Red Bull® and Vodka, trying very hard to stop wearing baseball caps backwards
"
Geez, I may need to sell my new IN76 just so I am not lumped into that group. :) I can now understand why InFocus's customer support is no longer what it used to be when they just assume these are their average customers. Nice to know they think of us as self indulgent pricks.

krasmuzik

04-30-06, 02:51 PM

Keep in mind that marketing is a different breed of animal - I would not lump design or support engineers in with the same species as them :D. The other customer profiles are more flattering - so we can assume their marketing is not done by 27yr old redbull drinkers. By the way do you shop at BestBuy? You better believe you have been profiled and segmented! Google AdWords is a great example of this type of marketing - they don't use it at AVS but many other fora do - highly targeted advertising based on what you are reading. I actually like it for some of the newsgroups I read - as long as it is kept to sidebars - I hate the linkwords.

EEBuckeye

04-30-06, 05:25 PM

Does everyone feel this projector has good saturated colors like the HD72 that will give the wow factor? I have not seen too many pictures posted in this thread. Does the picture 'blow you away'?

krasmuzik

04-30-06, 07:29 PM

The IN76 does not have inaccurate oversaturated colors.

madpoet

04-30-06, 08:58 PM

Hehe, now THAT could be taken either way ;)

madpoet

04-30-06, 09:18 PM

Title changed since these things are shipping and people have them.

Tnedator

04-30-06, 09:48 PM

Title changed since these things are shipping and people have them.

I won't have mine until tomorrow :)

dmcdayton

04-30-06, 10:17 PM

If you want to sell to youth, throw a gaming party somewhere as a promo or hook up with some group doing a LAN Gaming party. Or sponsor Video game contest, etc. If you can sell the 18-22 year olds, you'll get their little brothers and parents by default.

Ye old Frat house, dorm room etc, I used to know the Skoal rep when I went to college, thankfully we all dropped that habit quickly;).

Another thought, I go to these Homearama shows every year and they always have Finding Nemo or some other boring movie showing. I'd put up a decent racing game (360 with Gotham) and have all kids 18 and under compete for best score of the weeken, give away a game console or something. Now that would have the kids buzzing in the car about fixing up the basement.

krasmuzik

04-30-06, 10:37 PM

But then I would have to hire a kid to play the games - my last video game completed was FFX - about my speed. Tend to slow down when you hit the 40 (actually older but you go backwards till you reach 0 again....). Even my goatee is going grey....so I am already pushing up the daisies....

I think the gaming place before was on the right track - just need the right night spot rather than the daytime flourescent lighting. Last place wanted to turn off the lights - but they were permitted as an internet 'cafe' - and not an 'arcade'.

Kris Soete

05-01-06, 04:47 AM

Hi all,

My IN76 will arrive any day now. The room I will be using it in has no light control at all, so I have to wait until nighttime to start enjoying my pj as I am used to with the X1 I'm upgrading from.

However, as my ceiling and walls are all white I am thinking of getting a grey screen. Can anyone advise me on this and tell me what that would do to the out-of-the-box calibration. De you need to re-calibrate ?

Also, what is the impact on pure white when using a grey screen ?

Thanks. Kris.

Martin Butler

05-01-06, 09:21 AM

Kris, welcome to the forum. I too have my projector in my living room with white walls. I got a shower curtain that was the exact size of my window that has a blackout cloth on the back side and a suede front, so when I watch, I close the curtain. Also, maybe you can try the one remedy that helped me a great deal, even though I had to keep 2/3 of my room white. I painted the area surrounding the screen and the adjacent wall a Benjamin Moore paint called "grey". It's a really dark grey that somehow avoids the batchelor pad black look. My wife picked the color out from a selection of greys. Even though we looked at lighter shades, the Moore grey was the most modern and attractive choice. My grey screen (DaLite HCCV) looks great in my living room, kind of like a big picture frame.

madpoet

05-01-06, 09:42 AM

Seems silly but you can also look into flat black bedsheets and create a cloth wall behind the screen ;)

presenter

05-01-06, 01:22 PM

However, as my ceiling and walls are all white I am thinking of getting a grey screen. Can anyone advise me on this and tell me what that would do to the out-of-the-box calibration. De you need to re-calibrate ?

Also, what is the impact on pure white when using a grey screen ?

Thanks. Kris.

Kris, a grey screen shouldn't affect your color balance so there shouldn't be any need to mess with RGB settings.

However most grey screens are high contrast, so you will probably want to check that. You can use the basic white/black level setup found on the 2nd disk of Star Wars II or III, finding Nemo, etc. It's basic, but does the job. Or invest in Avia, or another calibration disk. You may also want to adjust color saturation a bit, if the grey screen gives you the feel of being slightly oversaturated.

One advantage of your grey screen is that it will tend to reject side ambient light, which might help you a bit if your light sources are not straight back from the screen. Just don't go expecting miracles. Als much depends on whether you go with a light grey or dark gray surface. The IN76 is pretty bright, so you can go with a dark grey, if your screen size isn't too large. -art

krasmuzik

05-01-06, 01:48 PM

Kris

Grey with gain works even better for white walls. Which is why it is very difficult to find a matte grey anymore - they have all reformulated to be a darker base with a gain surface.

My favorite is Dalite High Contrast materials - but Stewart *Hawk and Draper Hi-Def Grey are all worth sampling.

The key with grey samples is not to compare them directly to brighter samples. No matter how brite a screen is a brighter screen will make the dimmer screen seem dirty dingy - and ..... welll .... grey. Double tape them to black foamcore board to get them properly stretched and matted with black and view samples sequentially. You should only compare samples directly when you want to bracket which has what gain at your viewing angle - vs. the marketed gains.

Keep in mind that the moon is the same brilliance all the time - but a day moon looks dirty and dingy compared to a night moon. This is because of brighter surrounds. And daytime always is more colorful than dusk - but a movie screen is still bright enough once your eyes adapt to be colorful.

So I caution against changing your video settings - once the video is aligned it is aligned. You may think it needs changed to suit your room - but that is just your eyes not yet adapting to the darker screen and darker room. Some of the older greyscreens are blue pushed - but I think that has been improved as the products matured.

"Also, what is the impact on pure white when using a grey screen ?"

Pure white does not exist - there is always something brighter that looks whiter. White in video is the brightest thing on your screen - which is why you must avoid biasing the eye with brighter samples or projectors - it makes your dim one look bad.

madpoet

05-01-06, 01:53 PM

Kras, do you have an IN76 handy to test? A few of us are trying to figure out the beam size at the front of the case to see if we can use anamorphic lenses. Yes, mine will be here sometime this week but I'm impatient ;)

krasmuzik

05-01-06, 01:57 PM

I don't have an anamorphic lens so no point waiting for me to test that. I did get an IN76 though - and between yard chores this weekend, and customers to deal with this week - see when I have spare time to take it out of the box. I thought JeffKB already tried his lens and it worked - just slightly more edge issues.

madpoet

05-01-06, 02:00 PM

Didn't think anyone had yet. All you have to do is hold a sheet of paper in front of the lens with a little bit of clearance and measure the size of the image. Not a big deal if you don't have it handy to try though.

kevivoe

05-01-06, 03:46 PM

Kris
My favorite is Dalite High Contrast materials.

I tried 14 different samples from 4 screen manufacturers. I have found only 2 materials that DO NOT diffuse the image and hence reduce the resolution of HD sources. I watch allot of HDTV and soon HD-DVD. Believe me that the clarity of the IN76 requires a screen that DOES NOT diffuse the image. These "film like" images that some manufacturers advertise do not look good enough with HD sources. I want crystal clear images.

The 2 best are Da-Lite High Power. This is 2.8 gain and retro-reflective so it does not fit my ceiling mount application. This is a super smooth screen surface and is key to HD resolution. It also has a bit of drop off when viewing from 0 to 40 degrees off axis.

The next best is the Da-Lite Pearlescent 1.5 gain surface.

I have tried 4 Stewart surfaces, 3 Screen Innovations, Carada BW and 6 Da-Lite surfaces.

My current screen surface is a super smooth (400 grit sanded) multi coated white/pearl/poly screen wall. Up until 2 weeks ago nothing came close to beating it with HDTV. I may try a new coating and more sanding to improve on it but the perma-wall screens are pretty cheap so I may be done with experimentation.

K

krasmuzik

05-01-06, 04:35 PM

kevivoe

I would say that is a preference. Some people want the diffuse surfaces - they don't want the screen so sharp that they can see the SDE lines more clearly! Heck people even buy LCOS projectors because of their film like smooth image with no focusable SDE at all!

I have had some that cannot stand the Cinemavision surface because of what you say - and others that see what the gain does for their room and cannot see the difference in clarity unless 1' from the screen.

Surprised you found Pearlescent better than Cinemavision - they are about the same with ceiling mount (Pearlescent is only 1.5 gain if you are near projector since it is retroreflective). But for surface sheen it is more sparkly than CinemaVision - but maybe that makes it less diffuse.

Try Draper Hi-Def grey - it maybe what you are looking for in the clarity department (I prefer that term over diffusion - which better describes a wide viewing angle) - though I think you are preferring something brighter . Its gain coating is mild compared to CinemaVision - but Draper has taken hits for irregular gain coatings in the past - YMMV. The problem you have is if you like the brighter screens - it gets really hard to find ones with the clarity you seek as well as viewing angles (as you noted with High Power)

Anyways this is why there are dozens of screens at half a dozen vendors. I always recommend sampling them all - but properly - in your viewing angle with installed projector - and samples mounted as I described above. The worst is the photos I have seen of screen shootouts - guy just bought the projector and plopped it on the table - has not mounted it yet - then a single piece of tape hangs samples on the wall of all different shades. The screens don't stretch properly that way and have shadows - and the brightest one will always bias the comparison.

rrhomes

05-01-06, 07:25 PM

crussader

05-01-06, 09:16 PM

I have the IN72 and am using the 106" Greywolf screen available at Best Buy ($300) MSRP.

Let me say that:

1) This is my 1st projector, so I'm no expert
2) I'm using the unit after the sun goes down and in my family room with almost white walls and no light control
3) I am not a tweaker
4) My expections are based on the fact that this is an entry level projector
5) My viewing is limited to DVDs

I have been completely satisfied with my purchase (thanks TV Authority) . Can I see screen door effect at my 1.6 viewing distance? Yes. Does it take me out of the theater experience while watching a movie? No. Are my non techno-geek friends blown away by the setup? Yes. Even my dad who is not into home theater at all wants one.

I guess it boils down to how tweaked out do you want to go, and how much are you willing to spend.

EEBuckeye

05-01-06, 09:40 PM

Can anyone tell me the power requirements from the projector? I want to get a UPS (with a good sine wave) and would like to connect a few devices to it. I can't imagine it draws much power. It should be on the projector label.

Thanks!

Tnedator

05-02-06, 12:33 AM

Ok, I mounted my IN76 tonight. I watched the first two hours of King Kong, and then my wife wanted to watch CSI Miami. Here are my initial impressions and a question:

Out of the box, the color looks real good. I have not checked it with Avia yet, but it 'feels' like it is potraying colors accurately, and the whites don't seem to be blooming or over-white.

It seems plenty bright. Now, keep in mind that I just took down a BenQ PB6100 with about 2600 hours on the bulb, but the BenQ is a 1500 lumen projector and while the memory wanders, this projector sure seems to be nearly as bright as a 6100/6200 with a new lamp (I have several 6100's and 6200's at work with newer bulbs then mine. After watching for a half hour, I checked to see what it looked like in the low power lamp mode, and was surprised to find that the default is the low power lamp mode.

Noise: This is my biggest dissapointment. Compared to my BenQ 6100 this projector is very loud. During the moderate to loud scenes in Kong it wasn't noticeable, but during the quiet scenes it was very noticeable. I am not overly concerned, since I am sure after a couple weeks it will become white noise and I won't even think about it, but it is louder than I expected.

Now for the question:

When displaying a component image, you have the ability to move the image horizontally and vertically, which is something I could use, since my mount is a bit too high and too far to the right. However, with S-video (DirecTivo) these adjustments aren't available. Why is the horizontal and vertical adjustments not available with S-video?

kevivoe

05-02-06, 08:34 AM

After viewing high gain screen samples the illumination of noise and artifacts was instantly noticable and horrible, I realized I couldn't stand the image or cone for 5 seconds and instantly realized I don't want anything with a high gain. I'd rather have a bright projector with a perfectly smooth and uniform flat shade grey screen. I think this produces the most CLEAN 3D image that I crave, and is the most open window like image. Just my $.02.

Exactly what I am going for, clean 3D image. I don't see noise and artifacts with any of my sources and the IN76. What is your screen surface? I want to see the clarity of HDTV that the IN76 is capable of producing. I would hate for a $500 screen surface to destroy the clarity and resolution of a 720p and future 1080p projector.

Kras, the Da-Lite Pearlescent surface is not marketed as retroreflective that I noticed. It has only slightly more gain than the CV. The wide viewing angle is the give away on the diffusing properties of screens.

K

Jed M

05-02-06, 12:09 PM

kevivoe

05-02-06, 12:57 PM

I was disappointed with my Silverstar sample. At first I was blown away by the vividness and the range of colors. I almost ordered a screen after about 2 minutes of watching it. Unfortunately as time went on, I noticed that it really blurred out a lot of small details. For example, it completely wiped out the detail in a woman's sweater. It was a corded sweater and was very easy to tell on my parkland screen but the part on the silverstar was just a bright "glob" of color and no cords could be seen at all. Even though this was a very small detail, it was enough to make me think twice about high gain screens. I have about 9 samples to use and I will report back on what I finally choose, but IMO the drawbacks of high gain aren't worth it to me at this time (but I reserve the right to change my mind).

It is not necessarily the high gain but the diffusing property that destroys the resolution. If you look for a narrow viewing angle you see better resolution. If you get a flat screen (Parkland and Da-Lite high power) you also see better resolution.

Parkland is very smooth. That is why my screen wall has been sanded down using a 400 grit paper as the final sanding. Only 2 screens come close to my current resolution. I will attempt another build with a fine spay finish to get an even smoother finish. I notice that poly dries super smooth so I'll be doubling that ingredient in my next mix.

JedM, When I spoke to manufacturers about the resolution limitations of their current screens they claimed nobody ever complained about resolution before. They claim they intentionaly make a diffusing surface to produce the smooth film-like picture. I guess they never heard of HDTV or HD-DVD's.

k

NoThru22

05-02-06, 02:49 PM

I am happy with my blackout cloth screen. Am I a ******?

EEBuckeye

05-02-06, 03:09 PM

I also have a blackout fabric screen and think it does a great job with my Panasonic 300U. The 76 should be here this week!

kevivoe

05-02-06, 03:27 PM

I am happy with my blackout cloth screen. Am I a ******?

No. But don't start looking at other surfaces because you will see differences. Some you will like and others you will not. The sweater example mentioned earlier I have seen in many movies when doing pause action and sliding samples over details I want to inspect. You get a more 3D image if the resolution is not degraded.

I am going for a super smooth, 1.3 gain, light gray surface now. Moving from a relatively smooth, white/pearl surface with a 1.3 gain with little diffusion of light.

For those interested I made a mix of 2 parts Hirshfields white in eggshell, 1 part Modern Masters pearlescent metallic, 1 part polycryllic and 1/2 part Modern Masters extender. I rolled on 3rd coat after sanding 2nd coat with 400 grit. Smooth but not perfect. This mix approximates Studio Tek 130 with a bit less diffusion. Only 2 screens out of 14 perform better as I mentioned earlier.

Now with the brightness of the IN76 I will do a light gray mix and attempt a smoother surface. Kras suggested Draper 2500 ... I may sample a piece and see how it looks.

k

Typezer0

05-02-06, 04:09 PM

I am happy with my blackout cloth screen. Am I a ******?

I noticed the blackout material is a bit darker then a dalite screen i was borrowing. I think it's a video spectra. I painted some drywall pieces and and found those to be really close to the dalite screen. I'm still experimenting with:

Behr ultra flat white, Behr pearlescent white opal, and miniwax polycrylic water based clear satin. either mixing them, evenly or apply in base coats with a top coat of pearle. I'm quite happy with the results. I'll be spraying a huge a 123"w by 77"h section. Then put a 3" masking border at the top. Then have curtains on the side and one that can be adjusted to lift up from the bottom if needed.

Actual viewing maybe 125" dia, maybe 110" w and 68"H for the 4:3. I could go wider but I need room for the speakers. I don't have really thin mains. And the ceiling is low.

The Infocus IN74 will be mounted on a track of at least 4'. This along with the zoom will accomodate all the different aspect ratios and I'll be able to max out it's size on this wall rather than be limmited to watching 4:3 on a 16:9 screen. This is both.

Plus I have a lot of music videos and concerts in DivX format (played on the Philips DVP 642/37 dvd player $60 at Walmart) that are not as clear as dvd so if the quality suffers a bit I can move the PJ closer for a more solid image. All the furniture is totally re-arrangable. A lot of kids etc. Throw down pillows and blankets, moveable love seats.

Where this HT will lack will be in the total cosmetic look of it. It's totally dedicated with zero light but there will be no fancy lights, or carpet (just old carpet), fixtures etc. I'll still have brown paneling and spray painted black ceiling tiles.

I will have some nice movie posters, two Gollum/Smealgol standees and a giant cardborad poster of Rex vs Kong.

I can't find a big enough piece of fabric without seams in it unless I buy the actual screen material for an arm and a leg.

krasmuzik

05-02-06, 09:50 PM

DaGamePimp has a picture of BlackOut cloth vs. DaLite HCCV. DaLite HCCV retains blacks better - and has better resolution. Don't use BlackOut cloth because you think it is better for your room - do it because you are saving money! He in the end kept the BO cloth because he finds any gain screen surface visible.

Every screen out there has pros/cons!

http://home.comcast.net/~jlcburg3/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-2034909.html

kevivoe

Draper HighDef grey is the lighter grey, M2500 is their bright silver (though reports are they dropped the gain recently - I get tired of keeping up with them!). Draper HighDef grey is the best screen I have seen for optical resolution (thus the name!)

Plenty of paint formulaes of the month over in the DIY screen forum. After painting our lviing room and game room - no way I am painting any screens!

kevivoe

05-02-06, 10:23 PM

Kras,

Thanks I'll look into HighDef grey.

Typezer0,

Your paint formula is almost identical to mine. Looks like we prefer the same viewing surface. The thing with these formulas ... you're never satisfied for more than a few months. I was happy with my surface using a 1024x768 PJ ... with the IN76 and it's higher resolution and clearer optics I now crave a higher def screen surface.

IN76 spot size, I measured 1 1/4" high at about 3/4" in front of the PJ housing that holds the lens. I'll let whomever calculate image width given this height.

k

BrandonJF

05-02-06, 11:28 PM

I just got my IN76 today. One thing I'm noticing is that there is a bright spot in the upper middle area of the image. Kinda semi-circular... at first, I thought it was a fingerprint on the lens, but I'm not seeing anything. It's mainly only noticeable when the image behind this spot is black. Anyone see anything like this before?

I've read the majority of the posts in this thread - people weren't kidding about the fan noise. For some reason, I was hoping people were just more sensitive to it and assumed that it couldn't be louder than the Screenplay 5700 (which I always thought was pretty quiet)... it's definitely significantly louder than the 5700.. It doesn't bother me nearly as much as that bright spot, though.

krasmuzik

05-03-06, 12:49 AM

That would be a dust blob.... :(

BrandonJF

05-03-06, 07:49 AM

That would be a dust blob....

Really? I've wiped off the lens a bunch of times and it never moves. Would it be inside the projector?

Edit - ah... did a search on "dust blob". Haha. This is hilarious. That figures. Well, those three hours I spent with it were kinda fun... I guess...

Thanks!

Shawn Kelly

05-03-06, 08:40 AM

Kevivoe, was that 1.25" height in the worst case with the zoom setting at the largest image? Thanks.

kevivoe

05-03-06, 09:01 AM

Kevivoe, was that 1.25" height in the worst case with the zoom setting at the largest image? Thanks.

No. I am going for the longest throw possible and a 118" diagonal. On paper the throw distance should be 16'6" but I mounted my IN76 at 15'8" to leave some wiggle room. My zoom is approximately 1.05X according to the calculators.

If you want something specific for me to measure at a max/min zoom let me know.

k

EEBuckeye

05-03-06, 09:02 AM

I've read the majority of the posts in this thread - people weren't kidding about the fan noise. For some reason, I was hoping people were just more sensitive to it and assumed that it couldn't be louder than the Screenplay 5700 (which I always thought was pretty quiet)... it's definitely significantly louder than the 5700.. It doesn't bother me nearly as much as that bright spot, though.

That concerns me.. my projector arrives Friday and I am hoping the fan noise is not bad. Other people say it is barely noticable.

EEBuckeye

05-03-06, 09:03 AM

Really? I've wiped off the lens a bunch of times and it never moves. Would it be inside the projector?

Edit - ah... did a search on "dust blob". Haha. This is hilarious. That figures. Well, those three hours I spent with it were kinda fun... I guess...

Thanks!

Do you have to send the projector back for this since it is a sealed optical path? I would rather have it sealed but just hopefully the manufacturing facility is dust free. :-)

madpoet

05-03-06, 09:08 AM

I would guess you do.

Shawn Kelly

05-03-06, 09:39 AM

No. I am going for the longest throw possible and a 118" diagonal. On paper the throw distance should be 16'6" but I mounted my IN76 at 15'8" to leave some wiggle room. My zoom is approximately 1.05X according to the calculators.

If you want something specific for me to measure at a max/min zoom let me know.

k

Please open up the zoom to max image size with a bright 16:9 image and measure the spot height and width projected onto a vertical piece of paper that clears the projector housing. Thanks very much!

BrandonJF

05-03-06, 11:00 AM

That concerns me.. my projector arrives Friday and I am hoping the fan noise is not bad. Other people say it is barely noticable.

As long as there's not dead silence, it isn't that noticeable. It isn't a deal killer for me. I guess I just wasn't expecting it to be louder than an older model. I can barely hear my SP5700.

Do you have to send the projector back for this since it is a sealed optical path? I would rather have it sealed but just hopefully the manufacturing facility is dust free. :-)

I'm planning on them making me send it back. Yeah, I don't get how this happened. If the optical path is sealed, wouldn't it have had to get in there during manufacturing? I'd imagine the odds are against this occurring. Maybe I'll win a prize or something. :)

Jed M

05-03-06, 12:57 PM

My IN76 is quiet compared to my old X1. There is still a sound of air flowing, but nothing that really bothers me. My xbox 360 is much, much louder in comparison.

aoshiken

05-03-06, 02:18 PM

Btw, anyone has compared the IN76 fan noise with the one of the "old" Xbox (not the 360)?

I have an Xbox and its noise really bothers me totally, in fact from time to time i lost my attention seeing a movie. :(

If the IN76 is less louder than the Xbox i figure i can give it a chance :p

BrandonJF

05-03-06, 02:48 PM

I never noticed the XBOX being particularly noisy (then again, it's never been that close to me, either). The 360, on the other hand....

kevivoe

05-03-06, 10:15 PM

Please open up the zoom to max image size with a bright 16:9 image and measure the spot height and width projected onto a vertical piece of paper that clears the projector housing. Thanks very much!

O.K. I zoomed to maximum image size and measured the height of the spot to be right around 1.125" next to the PJ chassis. You'll want to mount any external lens a bit away from the IN76 as air vents allow for an air flow to "wash" the lens. This is what I felt when up close.

I noticed you wanted width that I failed to measure exactly. I would guess since it is wider than tall at 16:9 mode you would simply take 1.125" * (16/9).

I would move the lens out at least 0.5" to allow the air flow wash out of the lens assembly. I am sure I felt it and think I saw some slots. I had the lights down low. The 1.125" may increase to 1.25" to 1.35" out this far.

k

Shawn Kelly

05-03-06, 10:23 PM

Thanks Kevivoe,

That's great news. Sounds like this is another Infocus line that will work with our lenses. Our standard lens can handle a vertical height up to 1.5".

That's a good point on the air flow and it seems like there's plenty of room to leave a gap. Although I don't think it will make a lot of difference since these lens designs are pretty insensitive to flow and heat. Now dusty flow however - that could be inconvenient ;)

Tnedator

05-03-06, 10:50 PM

That concerns me.. my projector arrives Friday and I am hoping the fan noise is not bad. Other people say it is barely noticable.

My previous projector was a BenQ PB6100 and the IN76 is significantly louder. It is almost as loud as the 6100 would get when the heat kicked on in the house and the fan would kick up to high. This is in normal, not high (bright) mode, which is louder.

In my case, the projector is right over our couch, probably 5 feet above our heads. I like the picture and the image size, so I didn't even consider sending it back, but I was very dissapointed by how loud it is.

My guess is that how people react to it is mostly based on how loud their previous projector was.

silvergt02

05-04-06, 07:39 AM

Quick review:

Just recieved my IN76 last night and watched a few different formats (HD, DVD, XBOX 360)

I had a BenQ 8700

First impression is Great Picture..Bright, colors are amazing..I was watching a NY Mets game and the blues and blacks were really amazing in my opinion.

The box looks great too. I like the menu functions and ease of use.

The fan is a bit loud, but that never bothered me and a friend who has the same pj says the firmware upgrade lowers the db level of the fan (cant confirm that until I do the upgrade myself)

Another thing I notice is that different channels project slightly different size pictures. I focused in to fit the screen perfectly and when i changed the channel on set top box, the the pic got a little smaller (maybe an 1.50 inches all around the pic) That may be something I can fix with a setting on my STB or pj..Ill check it out.

kevivoe

05-04-06, 08:41 AM

agro1

05-04-06, 08:53 AM

Silver - Interesting you just received your pj and it didn't have the latest firmware...

madpoet

05-04-06, 08:55 AM

Not uncommon... who knows how long his dealer had it on the shelf?

BrandonJF

05-04-06, 08:57 AM

Silver - Interesting you just received your pj and it didn't have the latest firmware...

I just got mine on Tuesday and it didn't have the latest firmware, either. I'd imagine they have plenty out there with the original firmware on it still - it hasn't been out that long and I can't see them recalling or running to warehouses to update them.

agro1

05-04-06, 09:08 AM

I guess that's a good indication just of how many units initially shipped.

EEBuckeye

05-04-06, 09:12 AM

Quick review:

The fan is a bit loud, but that never bothered me and a friend who has the same pj says the firmware upgrade lowers the db level of the fan (cant confirm that until I do the upgrade myself)

Can anyone confirm the firmware change the fan speed during operation? The information for the update just states the fan does not increase during power down.

billymac

05-04-06, 09:31 AM

i did mine about a week ago, i don't think it changed the fan noise at all. it did appear to change a big rev up at power off though.

penn7

05-04-06, 10:14 AM

Billymac:

Did the update make any other noticeable changes?

claw

05-04-06, 11:01 AM

I received my IN76 on Tuesday - it was shipped Thursday. It has the original 2.1 firmware.

I just have it sitting on a table behind my seating for now. Will wait to determine what screen image size and image height I prefer before mounting it on the ceiling. Pretty happy even with the image I get off my dark beige wall.

Even though I had the projector sitting less than 2 feet behind me, I found that I did not hear any noise from it when watching. But when I sat the same distance behind the projector, the noise level was quite noticeable. This will probably have me mounting the projector at its longest throw to get it behind the main seating.

madpoet

05-04-06, 12:40 PM

Some days I hate Fedex. They tried again to deliver today and failed because no ones home and they are demanding an in-person signature. But can they hold it for me to pick up? Oh no, not until they have tried to deliver 2 more times even though I told them no one will be home then either! Hope my poor IN76 survives.

Lindahl

05-04-06, 01:13 PM

Anyone have this projector and using it at ~5500' (Denver)? I'm wondering how the noise level is at this elevation (some of you are reporting loud noise level at only 1000', it seems).

penn7

05-04-06, 02:52 PM

madpoet:

I had the opposite problem, they left mine setting on the front porch even thought the shipper had requested signature. Was checking the Fedex website hourly and noticed they showed delivery. Made record time getting home.

madpoet

05-04-06, 02:52 PM

billymac

05-04-06, 04:04 PM

Billymac:

Did the update make any other noticeable changes?

not that i'm aware of. the sync appears to be a bit better with my HD STB, and that wild fan spin up at power off is gone.

it supposedly fixed something over component, but i have yet to test that. i'm currently running my pc over hdmi and my HD STB over component --> VGA --> M1:VGA

i was going to order a VGA to component cable from cables wholesale, but haven't gotten abound to it...

billymac

05-04-06, 04:09 PM

I take back all the mean things I said about Fedex. The driver actually came back my house for a second delivery attempt this afternoon and caught my wife at home. He didn't have to, and I'm relieved he did! Can't wait to get home tonight and fire it up!

MP, i'm really curious to hear what you think about CR out of the box on this unit. can you please pay close attention to CSI tonight and report back. thanks! :D

madpoet

05-04-06, 04:12 PM

I'm hooking my HD-DVD player to it tonight and watching Doom. We'll see how the CR holds up ;)

billymac

05-04-06, 04:15 PM

lucky dog, have you had that a while? is it worth it? any buyer remorse?

madpoet

05-04-06, 04:20 PM

The HD-DVD player? Yeah, I like it. You have to put up with some dog-slow bootup time, but the end result is great. I haven't seen Doom yet so it should be a hoot ;).

Kris Soete

05-04-06, 04:41 PM

jkim5453

05-04-06, 05:23 PM

...
( btw : I use a cheap progressive DVD player and in Belgium I have no HD sources available as for now )

You might try outputting interlaced output and see if PQ improves. That's been the case with my bottom-end Sony DVD player with both IN76 and SP4805, so I don't bother setting its output to 480p any more. YMMV.

EEBuckeye

05-04-06, 05:31 PM

I take back all the mean things I said about Fedex. The driver actually came back my house for a second delivery attempt this afternoon and caught my wife at home. He didn't have to, and I'm relieved he did! Can't wait to get home tonight and fire it up!

Fed Ex had a great day! I just received my projector - it was not supposed to arrive until tomorrow. I'll report back tomorrow...

NoThru22

05-04-06, 07:11 PM

Can't wait to get home tonight and fire it up!
I hope when you do, it gives you Harry Potter spoilers!
I'm just kidding! I'M JUST KIDDING!!!!

bennutt

05-04-06, 07:20 PM

Hi all,

My IN76 finally arrived yesterday. I am very pleased with the image.
I only have one complaint ... and it sort of ruins it for me ... SHARPNESS !

When watching DVD (576p) via component, with standard sharpness, in my opinion the image is blurry compared to the sharpness I had on my X1. Yes, I'll repeat that ... my X1 has a sharper image.

I can partially resolve the matter by switching to sharper or sharpest mode, but the drawback on that is the noise I am getting.

Can anyone tell me if using a GOOD dvd player will bump sharpness up a notch. Will uscaling to 720p or feeding 720p make the image sharper ?

I really cannot understand why a pj that should be more advanced than the X1 in every way isn't as sharp ... can anyone explain ?

Thanx

( btw : I use a cheap progressive DVD player and in Belgium I have no HD sources available as for now )

After installing my new IN76, I had that complaint at first.... however, I reviewed my set up, adjusted the mount and the screen to line every thing up, adjusted the focus and I'm looking at a 100" picture that competes with my 50" DLP.

tweak tweak tweak!
Also, the Toshiba HD-DVD player looks great with regular DVD's.. i'm using a 1080i signal out of the player (doesn't do 720p as well for some reason) and it looks beautiful.

J

presenter

05-04-06, 07:28 PM

Hi all,

My IN76 finally arrived yesterday. I am very pleased with the image.
I only have one complaint ... and it sort of ruins it for me ... SHARPNESS !

Can anyone tell me if using a GOOD dvd player will bump sharpness up a notch. Will uscaling to 720p or feeding 720p make the image sharper ?

I really cannot understand why a pj that should be more advanced than the X1 in every way isn't as sharp ... can anyone explain ?

Thanx

( btw : I use a cheap progressive DVD player and in Belgium I have no HD sources available as for now )

When I reviewed the IN76 last month, I found the sharpness to be slightly better than average, no problem at all. And of course sharper on HD than DVD.

I use an Oppo DVD player for all my reviews and output 720p (through digital).

The Oppo sells in the US for about $199. There are other good upscaling DVD players you could try as well. I don't stay up on that, but I'm told there is a thread on the forum. Samsung certainly is mentioned, and I think Panaonic also has a good one...

As to the difference compared to your X1. The X1 is lower resolution, different scaler, so your DVD player and X1 might just work better together since the scaling algorithm is different.

You should definitely be enjoying a much sharper image with the IN76

Good luck! -a

presenter

05-04-06, 07:32 PM

I take back all the mean things I said about Fedex. The driver actually came back my house for a second delivery attempt this afternoon and caught my wife at home. He didn't have to, and I'm relieved he did! Can't wait to get home tonight and fire it up!

Wait, you caught your wife at home with the FedX driver.... hmmm perhaps you should be spending less time with projectors and more with your wife.

Sorry - couldn't resist.

Enjoy both (projector and wife) and send the FedX driver back, there are other wives waiting. -art

EEBuckeye

05-04-06, 09:19 PM

Ok... just got done playing with the projector for about one hour. I need to leave early for work - I'll mess more with it this weekend.

Here are my comments so far:

1) Fan noise - The projector location is about a foot behind me and above my head. I suppose I can hear it if I really really pay attention to it. I do not think it will bother me at all! Shew! :-)

2) Installation(offset) - This was not near as bad as I thought! It can sit upside down on my shelf for the perfect height! I just need to make sure I do not hit the power button on accident. I will put a small ring around it so it can not make accidental contact. This install allows free airflow on both sides of the projector also. I was heavily debating between the HD72 and IN76 but went with the IN76 for numerous reasons but this did NOT include offset. However, I am SO glad I chose the IN76. I have a ceiling fan that is in the path of the projector if it was installed even about 4 inches higher! I had to raise one of the fan pull-down controls so it was not in the picture. No problem at all - I got lucky since I did not even consider that ceiling fan!

3) Sharpness - I tried to adjust the sharpness quite a bit and was not happy with it. I used the sharpness control and moved it to sharper and it was better. I then realized I was trying to sharpen a standard def picture (ESPN News). As soon as I thought about this I turned to a high-def channel and it is great! Stupid me - I was worried initially when I saw the picture!

4) Cable Box - I initially had the cable box set to 1080i output only for my old 540p projector (Panny 300u). I changed the setting to 1080i and 720p to allow the best picture for both. I want the IN76 to convert to 720p instead of the cable box. The only minor complaint I have is that the IN76 has to re-adjust whenever the signal changes for 1080i to 720p or vice versa. I know this is expected but it takes a few seconds (maybe 3-4) when I change to a channel that is a different resolution. Possibly my only minor complaint thusfar.

5) Picture - Outstanding color out of the box! I can not believe how much smoother it looks (no screendoor) than my old Panasonic PTL-300U projector. Of course it should look much better and it does! :-)

6) Dead pixels, dust blobs, etc... - I was watching ESPN HD and noticed some strange things on the screen that I thought was dust or something to that effect. This really concerned me but I changed channels and realized it was sun spots on the ESPN broadcast. As soon as they changed to another camera the spots were gone. Shew! That made me nervous... I have been looking hard for dead pixels, etc.. but I can not find any yet (hopefully not ever!) :-)

7) Contrast - Seems very very good thusfar. I am coming from an old LCD projector so it should be much better (and again it is!).

Anyways, those are my initial comments. Only minor issue is how long it takes to acquire a different signal when I have the cable box set to display 720p and 1080i. Any thoughts on this?

Great projector! I'll definitely be doing more tweaking this weekend!
Brad

krasmuzik

05-04-06, 09:36 PM

3) I found standard sharpness to be best. While it has minimal ringing that goes away if you go softer - softer completely loses high frequency detail. This is a reference video generator - you may need to compensate for your source. Anything higher than standard has major scaling&ringing artifacts.

4) minor complaint? I think so - us SP4805ers had to mash the button on channel changes, or upgrade to firmware that flashed black scenes, though they finally upgraded the firmware to fix both problems after the projector is obsoleted. You got it easy :D

crussader

05-04-06, 10:20 PM

3) ...Anything higher than standard has major scaling&ringing artifacts.

I'll second that. Even as one who is not bothered by screen door or rainbows, I found the problems induced by bumping up the sharpness to be extremely annoying.

billymac

05-04-06, 10:56 PM

Hi all,

My IN76 finally arrived yesterday. I am very pleased with the image.
I only have one complaint ... and it sort of ruins it for me ... SHARPNESS !

When watching DVD (576p) via component, with standard sharpness, in my opinion the image is blurry compared to the sharpness I had on my X1. Yes, I'll repeat that ... my X1 has a sharper image.

I can partially resolve the matter by switching to sharper or sharpest mode, but the drawback on that is the noise I am getting.

Can anyone tell me if using a GOOD dvd player will bump sharpness up a notch. Will uscaling to 720p or feeding 720p make the image sharper ?

I really cannot understand why a pj that should be more advanced than the X1 in every way isn't as sharp ... can anyone explain ?

Thanx

( btw : I use a cheap progressive DVD player and in Belgium I have no HD sources available as for now )

i owned an X1 and there's no way MY in76 is any less sharper than the x1. not even a doubt. i would check things out really well. possibly even contact your dealer.

Kris Soete

05-05-06, 12:27 AM

Thanks for all your help.

Billymac ... what source are you using ?

I don't think sharpness is a problem of this particular unit. I viewed an hd72 and I think it has the same problem.

Mind you, I can only feed 576i/567p DVD material, so I cannot say what HD or upconverting would do.

As a test I let my wife watch the image with sharpness set to higher for about five minutes and then turnedsharpness to standard. The reaction was : " Oh no ... that is no good ... it is out of focus ! "

When carefully focussing and watching a single pixel I can make the mirrors and their spacing very crisp, but the overall image seems slightly out of focus.

I really don't care for that " cinema look " some people talk about. I need a sharp crisp image.

EEBuckeye

05-05-06, 07:23 AM

Does the Infocus menu look out of focus or sharp? This might tell youif the source is the problem.

Also, how long until someone figures out the service code for more tweaking? It was easy on my old Panny 300U and allowed for greater control over a few settings.

kevivoe

05-05-06, 08:11 AM

I really don't care for that " cinema look " some people talk about. I need a sharp crisp image.

This is what I have been saying for over 3 months. You will find most screens have a diffusing surface coating. I tested 14 so far from 4 manufacturers and 12/14 reduce resolution.

The 2 that don't are:

Da-Lite High Power. This screen would work if you have a >120" diagonal, long throw and table mount. Ceiling mounting may work if you don't mind the gain change when standing up and moving around. Crispest image of them all.

Da-Lite Pearlescent. Best screen so far for resolution I have found. 1.5 moderate gain and an off white surface makes for very decent blacks with the IN76. The smooth surface makes for crisp images.

I am expecting some Draper samples also. They have a "HiDef Grey" that sounds good on paper.

In the meantime, I continue to use my tried and true fine sanded screen wall with my own mix of coating.

k

madpoet

05-05-06, 08:55 AM

Ok... my personal ramblings based on a few hours last night. First, I have the Knoll clone of the IN76. Looks identical except that it says Knoll all over it and comes with a (cheap) ceiling mount. I didn't feel like ceiling mounting since I am still waiting on my final screen and anamorphic lens, so this was done from a table mount (low floor mount actually). I didn't do much to measure or tweak since, frankly, I was told by my dealer who ran it for a few hours before he shipped it that it was pretty dead on. I watched a couple HD-DVDs on a 106" Dalite Hi Power.

First the noise issue. You guys must have some subsonic hearing ;). In comparison to a lot of projectors I have demo'd this one is FAR quieter. I can't believe Knoll has doen anything radically different than Infocus to quiet th fan. Maybe in a ceiling mounted condition it gets louder somehow, but it was very quiet for me. Not dead silent, but quiet. My HD-DVD player was louder.

I watched Doom and Goodfellas on HD-DVD. I thought it handled Doom nicely though I admit I missed the absolute CR of my CRT. All in all it was very good though, and I liked it. Part of my problem may have been the screen. The IN76 is SOOO bright, and I was using a hi power screen in full gain position. Practically blinding! I also have absolute light control. I was impressed with how well the IN76 held up even with some ambient light. While not quite a light cannon, it has a very impressive lumen output. I also agree that it is pretty sharp. Perhaps a bit too sharp for my taste, but once I add the anamorphic lens I'll lose some of that sharpness so it's probably a good thing.

So do I like it? Absolutely. Nice little machine, very stylish looking, and certainly easier to handle than my CRT (for which I have a powered winch to raise and lower it!).

Tnedator

05-05-06, 10:06 AM

First the noise issue. You guys must have some subsonic hearing ;). In comparison to a lot of projectors I have demo'd this one is FAR quieter. I can't believe Knoll has doen anything radically different than Infocus to quiet th fan. Maybe in a ceiling mounted condition it gets louder somehow, but it was very quiet for me. Not dead silent, but quiet. My HD-DVD player was louder.

Not sure about the subsonic hearing, but as I said in one of my posts, I think it has a lot to do with what projector you previously used.

My previous projector was a BenQ PB6100, which was certainly not as nice as the IN76, but was/is quieter.

madpoet

05-05-06, 10:19 AM

Tned, I've sat with the 6100 several times and it really doesn't appear that the IN76 is louder. I will freely admit that without side by side testing though it will always be a perception.

RTK

05-05-06, 10:40 AM

... but once I add the anamorphic lens I'll lose some of that sharpness so it's probably a good thing.

I am considering this exact combo. Which anamorphic lens do you have and do you forsee any issues or limitations using it with your IN76 due to its recessed lens design?

madpoet

05-05-06, 10:51 AM

I've got an H1200R coming. I measured it yesterday and am fairly confident with the size. I get right around 1.25" beam size for height.

kevivoe

05-05-06, 11:21 AM

Ok... (low floor mount actually). First the noise issue.

Is your floor carpeted? If so, this may contribute to muted sound versus a ceiling mount. Acoustical treatments with ceiling mounts could help deaden the sound.

If you'll get up close to this projector you will find the air intake on the side of the PJ with the shortest distance to the lens and the exhaust is the side of the housing with the longest distance to the lens.

The exhaust side is a bit louder (lower frequency too).

K

madpoet

05-05-06, 11:28 AM

kevivoe

05-05-06, 12:21 PM

It could I suppose, but the projector was on a coffee table and not the actual floor. I was sitting directly behid the unit but I did notice one side generated more noise than the other. Maybe I'll crank out my sound meter and measure. Valid measurement is at 3', correct?

It depends on your meter sensitivity. I would start at 3 feet since this is about the minimum distance from ears to PJ when ceiling mounted.

I'd like to know sound 3' from the exhaust side, 3' from the intake side and 3' from the back.

Then 3' out, 3' up from these positions (or down when ceiling mounted)

EX 3' =
IN 3' =
BK 3' =

EX 3'x3' =
IN 3'x3' =
BK 3'x3' =

k

bubbawilly

05-05-06, 12:48 PM

I heard the Knoll version of the 76, and had the opportunity to compare it to an Optoma H79. Although I'm sure that it was confirmed earlier in this thread, let's reiterate that the IN76's fan does speed up in ceiling mode. From my observation, it was at least twice as loud in ceiling mode as in desk mode. I could tell no difference between setting the fan to high while in desk mode, vs. leaving the fan in normal mode when ceiling mounted. The difference was significant, and the dealers screening room is very large. I'd guess about 30' x 30', and we were seated about 4' below, and slightly behind the projectors.

The Optoma H79 is a very quiet projector, but not silent. The IN76 (Knoll) is significantly louder. I would not call it quiet by any stretch of the imagination. If I had to put numbers to it, I'd say that the H79 ran at about 23dB, while the Knoll was about 36dB. This included a reference to a BenQ 7700 that runs at about 26dB. IMO, the Knoll seemed a bit more than twice as loud as the Optoma.

madpoet

05-05-06, 01:25 PM

Interesting, I don't believe there was any confirmation about fan speed difference between the two. I'll flip it over and try it out.

ciotime

05-05-06, 01:55 PM

Im getting the IN76...the problem is I cant seem to decide the screen size to go with it. The Ht room is 14'X21'...the main seating area is about 11.5 feet from where the screen will be. Should I go with a 92",100" or 106"?

madpoet

05-05-06, 01:56 PM

Good rule of thumb is primary seating should be 1.5x screen width.

ciotime

05-05-06, 02:01 PM

I calculated that and the width of the 106" is 92". 1.5x is 138" which is 11.5 feet. Thats where my seating position is....an inch nearer then I fall below the 1.5x...a couple of people have been telling me that the 106" will be too big. They suggest I get the 92" or 100" instead.

madpoet

05-05-06, 02:05 PM

You are right on the edge of too big. Personally I like it that way ;) If you have any flexibility with the seating get your 106" screen and then move the seating around.

ciotime

05-05-06, 02:07 PM

What do you mean move it around? As in maybe move it back a little? How bout if I get the 100" instead?

madpoet

05-05-06, 02:08 PM

Right, if you get the 106" and feel like you are too close can you move the seating back to 12 or 13 feet?

Typezer0

05-05-06, 02:11 PM

I have been emailing and waiting to see if this mount would work on the IN74. Premier never contacted me back and they posted that they didn't know. So I found one on Ebay and got it for $76 plus $25 for shipping(which was high). They had some that were $99 Buy it now and $10 shipping.

Anyway I set it up and it works perfectly. I rigged up a 4' track for the pj to slide on. This way there will not be any limitations on height or for 4:3 or width of WS. (I using an entire wall to project on).I Bought 2 $10ea tracks used for track lighting. Depot and Lowes has them. The mounting plate determined how the to tracks side by side would be placed on the board. Each track has 2 bolts of the four mounting holes. I made (cut to size) 2 metal sliders that slides through the tracks in inside the groves. Almost like skis with one bolt at the front and one bolt at the back of each ski.

I had to flush mount it because of the low ceiling. It still has a lot of swivel room being that close. Excellent mount. I used all 4 of the arms. By using one of the swivel base M4 screw holes.

Anyone concerned about offset, don't be. I was before I got it. I barely tilt it and it's fine.