madpoet -

Any update on flipping your 76 over to see if the fan is louder? I can't believe the pj would know without some type of mercury switch or gyroscope which way it was oriented. Unless of course some believe initating "ceiling mode" would do it. If that's the case, you could just chose "ceiling mode" while its on your table to see if the fan increases.

This one still bewilders me, so waiting to hear.

Mine is upside down and the fan speed is still very quiet to me. It is a little louder than my old Panny 300U (which was dead silent) but it is quiet in my opinion as I can barely hear it.

KEVIVOE ... I project on a wall that has been painted white. I know the problem is not the wall, cause I prijected on that same wall during 3 years with the X1.

EEBuckeye ... the menu is razor sharp. The source ( DVD player 576i / 576p ) is the same as I used with my X1.

Billymac ... what source do you use ?


So ... I know it is not the source .... I know it is not the screen ... I know it is not the lens ...
only thing left is the scaler. I guess pixelworks is not the same as Faroudja. I do want to add that I have 20/20 vision.

One more thing ... what happens when I combine a DVD player that has a built-in Faroudja scaler with the Pixelworks scaler in the pj. Does the one override the other ... ?

the menu is razor sharp. The source ( DVD player 576i / 576p ) is the same as I used with my X1.


Like someone said earlier, your DVD player source material was better suited for the lower rez X1. In short, that combination for wahtever reason(s), was a good one.
Clearly, your new IN76 does not like your 576 DVD player. Why not just buy a new player that will scale to 720p ?? You have a native HD projector and you're not using it to it's fullest. Until you do, or until you change your source material, the picture will most likely not look much better (IF ANY) than you X1.

So.... I haven't seen any complaints about eye strain or headaches. I'm guessing no one has felt the need for an ND2 filter (or maybe they just don't want to tape the filter over the lens). Is the brightness going to be decent over the long run in everyone's opinion? Or maybe it's too early to ask.

EEBuckeye ... the menu is razor sharp. The source ( DVD player 576i / 576p ) is the same as I used with my X1.

I believe this shows the projector is displaying a sharp image (as the menu is projected). I do think it is the DVD player or cables that may be showing a problem at higher resolution. The IN76 will show more defects with more detail. The source is really the only thing left.

EUREKA ... PROBLEM SOLVED !!!!!

I switched from 576p to 576i and SHARPNESS IS GREAAAAAT !!! DAMN what a picture this thing throws ... wonderful !!!! Haaaahaaaa !! And this is on a plain painted wall with simple DVD source .... what will a screen and HD do ... woohoooo

I guess jkim5453 was right.

Now someone please explain to me how come 576i is better yhan 576p via component.

explain to me how come 576i is better yhan 576p via component

It means the PJs scaler is better than the player's.

BTW, same thing on the 4805 - 480i looks better than 480p.

Mine is upside down and the fan speed is still very quiet to me. It is a little louder than my old Panny 300U (which was dead silent) but it is quiet in my opinion as I can barely hear it.

Here is where subjectivity and personal preferences enter the equation.

I had a Panasonic 300U, and it was definitely not "dead silent." It was rated at 28dB in econo mode, and it was every bit of that. Was it distracting? No. Was it quiet? Relatively so. Could it be heard from anywhere in the room? Most definitely. I could hear it from just outside my theater room.

From memory (I had the 900U recently, and it was about the same as the 300 in ceiling mode), the Knoll is nearly twice as loud. Is that quiet? Not to me, but everything is relative. ;)

For reference, there is a setting in the menu that says something like "Autodetect ceiling mount"... I can look up the exact wording. Anyway, if this is turned on the little bugger does indeed know which orientation it is! Very cool! I'll run tests tonight. I can't find my ratshack meter, but I can at least tell you if the fan speed changes considerably.

I can't find my ratshack meter, but I can at least tell you if the fan speed changes considerably.
I have the Ratshack meter, but it's useless for measuring PJs. The lowest level you can measure on it is 50dB...

It means the PJs scaler is better than the player's.

BTW, same thing on the 4805 - 480i looks better than 480p.

would this hold true for the 480i/480p override option on a Comcast Moto HD STB? in other words, if i turn it to 480i on the box, would it look better do you think? I'll have to try it and see I guess.

have to try it. My Moto HTB looks best at 720p (again, 4805).

EUREKA ... PROBLEM SOLVED !!!!!

I switched from 576p to 576i and SHARPNESS IS GREAAAAAT !!! DAMN what a picture this thing throws ... wonderful !!!! Haaaahaaaa !! And this is on a plain painted wall with simple DVD source .... what will a screen and HD do ... woohoooo

I guess jkim5453 was right.

Now someone please explain to me how come 576i is better yhan 576p via component.


It means your player was taking the easy way out and converting the 288 line field with half the picture doubling the interlaced lines - loosing half the vertical resolution which then that doubled scan line was scaled up to five scan lines to make the full 720P frame by the projector.

Always a good idea to check to see if the player or display is better at deinterlacing/scaling by changing your player to interlaced.

It is easy to see the difference between focus and sharpness. Display a white field and look at the lines between the pixels (the SDE) to see focus, for sharpness display gridlines like the AVIA/DVE sharpness patterns and look for clean sharp lines that are not spilling across pixels.

What do you mean move it around? As in maybe move it back a little? How bout if I get the 100" instead?


As soon as you mount the 100" and have people over the thought will cross your mind that you should have gone a bit bigger.

Go for the bigger screen and call your front seats the "immersion" seats.

k

Was DaLite High Contrast Cinema among your 14 test screens?
J

Yes. See the list below of what I checked with HD sources. SD sources make many more screens equal. 2 of my screens were DIY and 1 of these I currently use. Only the top 2 picks listed below offer better resolution.

Tested so far with the IN76.

Da-Lite:
High Power 2.8 gain
Video Spectra 1.5 gain
Pearlescent 1.5 gain
Cinema Vision 1.3 gain
High Contrast Cinema Vision 1.1 gain

Stewart:
Studio Tek 130 1.3 gain
Firehawk G2 1.25 gain
Ultramatte 150 1.5 gain
Videomatte 200 1.8 gain

Carada:
Brilliant White 1.4 gain

Screen Innovations:
Reference 1.3 gain
Silhouette 1.1 gain

Draper:
HiDef Grey (pending)
High Contrast Grey (pending)
M2500 (pending)


My personal best with HD sources is the Da-Lite Pearlescent, followed by High Power. The High Power just won't work in my ceilng application and is too bright with the IN76. Eye strain could be a problem.

Worst are the Da-Lite Video Spectra 1.5, High Contrast Cinema Vision, Cinema Vision, Stewart Firehawk, Studio Tek 130, Ultramatte 150 and Videomatte 200.

Average are the Carada Brilliant White and Screen Innovations Reference 1.3 and Silhouette 1.1 gain screens.

People, keep in mind this is a test of crisp HD resolution. Screens that are advertised as "film like" with diffusion surfaces DO NOT make my list of desirable screens for HDTV or HD-DVD. Wait until 1080p projectors hit the streets. All those people who spent so much money on a screen that "should last them a life time" are going to be watching 1080p diffused to <720p.

If I can see 720p degraded by the screen I shudder to think a 1080p PJ would loose on these screens. I see many Ruby owners are going the High Power route EVEN with ceiling mounted projectors. This makes sense based on my resolution preferences, esp. with a 1080p PJ.

By the way, my corrected vision is near 20/10 per a recent test. Even without correction I have 20/20 in one eye and 20/25 in the other. So when I say diffusion screen surfaces bother me you may not feel the same. Although my sister in law with her 20/25 vision agreed with most of my resolution rankings. Esp. the best and worst offenders.

k

Here is where subjectivity and personal preferences enter the equation.

I had a Panasonic 300U, and it was definitely not "dead silent." It was rated at 28dB in econo mode, and it was every bit of that. Was it distracting? No. Was it quiet? Relatively so. Could it be heard from anywhere in the room? Most definitely. I could hear it from just outside my theater room.

From memory (I had the 900U recently, and it was about the same as the 300 in ceiling mode), the Knoll is nearly twice as loud. Is that quiet? Not to me, but everything is relative. ;)

Wow... that is surprising.. A couple guys at work also have the 300u and everyone thinks it is very quiet. Sounds like you are cursed with great hearing! :)

[QUOTE=kevivoe]People, keep in mind this is a test of crisp HD resolution. Screens that are advertised as "film like" with diffusion surfaces DO NOT make my list of desirable screens for HDTV or HD-DVD. Wait until 1080p projectors hit the streets. All those people who spent so much money on a screen that "should last them a life time" are going to be watching 1080p diffused to <720p.I find your observations a little over the top, but still very interesting.

If I can see 720p degraded by the screen I shudder to think a 1080p PJ would loose on these screens. I see many Ruby owners are going the High Power route EVEN with ceiling mounted projectors. This makes sense based on my resolution preferences, esp. with a 1080p PJ.I'm under the impression that the reason the Ruby owners are vying for the higher gain screens have more to do with them trying to overcome the Ruby's lack of lumens. Whether ceiling mounted or not, they still acheive gain with this screen and that is what they're after.

By the way, my corrected vision is near 20/10 per a recent test. Even without correction I have 20/20 in one eye and 20/25 in the other. So when I say diffusion screen surfaces bother me you may not feel the same. Although my sister in law with her 20/25 vision agreed with most of my resolution rankings. Esp. the best and worst offenders.I guess I'll have to stick with my 20/40-50 vision and stay away from that Lasik surgery that I was contemplating having done. Otherwise, my 4805 and SilverStar combo will end up looking like it has the resolution of VHS. :p

What do you mean move it around? As in maybe move it back a little? How bout if I get the 100" instead?

I am sitting about 11.5 feet from a 106" screen. For 2:35 movies it's ideal in my opinion. For 1:85 movies it is on the edge of too big, but not quite over the edge. :)

Ok, my HD Tivo arrived today and the picture on my IN76 just got a whole lot better!!! I watched part of Robots, which was on HBO. That was about as clean as I can imagine. I watched a little of a basketball game and then watched Numb3rs.

I am glad I decided to spring for the money, the combination of being able to have TV shows fill my 16x9 screen, rather than having sidebars, and then the difference in quality is just amazing.

One question I do have though. What output should I use, 720p or 1080i? I believe it was the projector central review that said they got the best picture on the IN76 when outputting from a DVD player at 1080i rather than 720p. Would the same hold true with my HD Tivo?

Kevivoe

Like you, I am very lucky in having better than 20/10 corrected vision with contact lens (Dr says I am a freak). So I feel qualified to ask you what you're talking about?

"All those people who spent so much money on a screen that "should last them a life time" are going to be watching 1080p diffused to <720p"

I am curious what you see in these screen materials that they're so bad they'll drop your perceived resolution of the projector? Are you sitting really close to the screen?

For me Contrast, Color, Quality source are the big drivers, using 4805 on BOC. Having a hard time understanding how screen material would make that much of a difference, wondering what I am missing? I sampled several but wasn't sold.

-I won't ask you why you felt need to correct 20/25, 20/20 vision:)

How do you guys calibrate your projector from HD sources? Is not like they will broadcast contents from the Avia disk any time soon.

How do you guys calibrate your projector from HD sources? Is not like they will broadcast contents from the Avia disk any time soon.

I adjusted my brightness and contrast using HDNet's test patterns - didn't bother with any other settings. I find the result good enough for all HD channels I get from SA8300HD set-top box so that I don't feel compelled to tweak for each channel.

Go to hd.net and do a search on "test patterns" to find the next available showing. It usually comes on early in the morning for about 10 minutes. I don't know of other channels that show similar test patterns, but it's probably worth looking into if HDNet isn't available for you.

Or if you are lucky enough to have DVHS you can use DVE.

Guys, I have a couple more questions.

1. My viewing room has white walls and a white ceiling, so when projecting there is reflected ambient light. Currently I project on a flat white painted wall and the ambient light doesn't bother me. Image is about 1.8 meters diagonal. II will get a screen that is 2.79 diagonal. I can get it with 1.0 or 1.4 gain. What would you advise ? Will the higher gain decrease my black levels even more ? Is 1.0 gain enough to keep good brightness ? ...

2. As stated before, 576i currently gives me the sharpest image. Is upgrading to a DVD player that upscales to 720p ( oppo ) worth it. I mean, the pj does the upscaling ... will Faroudja do better ? In short ... what would be the benefits of upgrading to a higher end DVD player ?

3. Does the scaler of the DVD player override the pj scaler ?

4. My image is very crisp and sharp now ... but every now and then I see some dithering noise ... is there any way I can get rid of that ?

I couldn't find the sweater example I cited earlier, but here is an example of silverstar with a suit with pin stripes. The bottom corner is the Silverstar sample. It is definitely brighter, but the stripes seem to fade away. I don't know if this is something I want, but I do love the colors the SS produces.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/floydcash/pinstripe.jpg

Hey all. I've been away for months. Last time I was here the 4805 was all the rage. I am considering buying an IN72 or 76. Maybe I've missed something, like maybe these units haven't really hit the market yet, but why are there no screenshots of these new units in action? I'm curious what the image looks like.

JedM

This is absolutely the wrong way to demo screens. Had you had a silverstar and viewed a dimmer sample your perceptions would be reversed.

Your test has nothing to do with resolution. You cannot even see the SDE in that shot - the pin stripes take up a few pixels for sure.

Instead what you are seeing is the SilverStar is being biased by the dark grey tones of the image - you see the pinstripes as a lighter grey on a light suit. There is insufficient contrast in the image tone for you to see the pinstripes.

You also like the colors because brighter colors are stronger colors - but again this is your eye biasing the same way as if the image itself had a brighter red tie vs. a maroon tie. If the brighter colors do not exist on screen - then the tie and shirt in that image are the brightest colors - and you will perceive them as bright rather than dark.

White is an optical illusion. Make sure you test screen samples the way you will view them in the end - nobody buys screens with lighter/darker patches on them.

It is imperative that you test screen samples isolated on a black background.

With all due respect to kevivoe - one should not be making screen selections based on his choices. They are not the best selections for the IN7x. 20/10 vision is more of a curse than a blessing. I have had only 10% of my customers that could not see past the screen surfaces because of their vision - the other 90% of you should consider yourself lucky that you can choose a screen that is best for your room and projector - rather than being cursed with narrow choices by your eyes.

What someone with good vision will focus on is the SDE. Basically the eye is perceiving the sharper image to be the ones with the squarest pixels - and for the same reasons as the pinstripes above - the highest contrast SDE. However the squareness of the pixels is not part of the image content - it is actually an artifact. Ideally an image should be composed of a gaussian spot pixel so that lines between the pixels cannot be seen at all - as lines are artificial detail that do not exist in the image - the pixels themselves should not even be visible so as to form a continuous tone image. This is why LCOS/SXRD prizes their displays so much - the problem with those technologies is that neighboring pixels affect the contrast of each other - it is not a true gaussian spot.

This is what happens with the SDE of the gain screens - the SDE line becomes diffuse or less contrasty - exactly like the pinstripes in the above photo. Those with high vision will interpret this as less resolution - certainly it is less optical clarity - but look at any of the other screens up close - and you will see that the information in the pixel is still there and not blurring into it's neighbors - only the SDE is.


Now kevivioe may not be realizing he is doing this because of his 20/10 vision - but I assure you - it is his vision. He can see the SDE more clearly than the rest of you - and that is what he is focusing on subconsciously. He would have to be using a screen that is 1/4th the area to be making the same screen choices as the rest of you....

The reality is that only the archaic GlassBeaded screens (not the microbead like HighPower) have insufficient clarity for HD - when you define clarity as are the pixels interfering with each other. The proper test of resolution are the scanlines and resolution patches/wedges on your favorite test DVD. I defy anyone to take a screenshot of any screen closeup with those test patterns that shows that the resolution of the image is actually lessened by the screen. Clarity of the SDE - of course will change.

I couldn't find the sweater example I cited earlier, but here is an example of silverstar with a suit with pin stripes. The bottom corner is the Silverstar sample. It is definitely brighter, but the stripes seem to fade away. I don't know if this is something I want, but I do love the colors the SS produces.
Too bad that shot is so out of focus. Do you mind saying where you got that shot from? I can tell you that Vutec's samples of the SS are in a 16:9 framed format and that sample looks to me like a 4:3 frame. What is the main screen being used in that shot? I'd be more than happy to obtain a few screen samples of your choice and post some shots if you'd like.

kras, thanks for explaining how the gain screen works as it helped me to better understand the image that I see on my screen. By having a screen with absolutely no diffusion, it will be easier to perceive the clarity of fine line detail including that of the SDE on it and a screen that has some diffusion, lessens the clarity of fine line detail as well as that of the SDE. I can easily live with that, as the dmd's will always have some degree of a SDE to them. Wouldn't someone with the visual acuity of a person like kevivoe actually be better off with a screen that has a diffusion characteristic to it?

First, forgive me if I am giving out the wrong impression as I have just started this screen thing. I have been using Parkland Plastics for 3 years and the only reason I want to switch is because I want to go bigger (around 110"). Instead what you are seeing is the SilverStar is being biased by the dark grey tones of the image - you see the pinstripes as a lighter grey on a light suit. There is insufficient contrast in the image tone for you to see the pinstripes.
So are you saying that if I had a full size SS the pinstripes would reappear due to having more contrast to work with in the image tone? Too bad that shot is so out of focus. Do you mind saying where you got that shot from? I can tell you that Vutec's samples of the SS are in a 16:9 framed format and that sample looks to me like a 4:3 frame. What is the main screen being used in that shot? I'd be more than happy to obtain a few screen samples of your choice and post some shots if you'd like.That was just a random shot of SDTV. Admittedly it is a crappy picture, but I think it got my message across (even though I now understand that I might not have known what I was seeing). My sample is straight from Vutec and it is a 4:3, so maybe they decided to save some money and go with smaller samples, I don't know.

So is there a consensus about SS as a screen for the IN76, and more importantly HD? Will I lose detail over my Parkland, or is it just my way of demoing that is providing false results? Thanks for the help Kras and Smithfarmer.

I couldn't find the sweater example I cited earlier, but here is an example of silverstar with a suit with pin stripes. The bottom corner is the Silverstar sample. It is definitely brighter, but the stripes seem to fade away. I don't know if this is something I want, but I do love the colors the SS produces.

What you're seeing has, almost certainly, more to do with the camera that took the picture.

BTW, I am likely replacing my Vutec Brite White with SS. The SS is the most addictive screen I've seen.

What you're seeing has, almost certainly, more to do with the camera that took the picture.
No, I used (and took) that picture, even though it was crappy, because it was the only picture I could get that captured the essence of what it really looked like. I have no agenda against Vutec.

No, I used that picture, even though it was crappy, because it was the only picture I could get of what it really looked like. I have no agenda against Vutec.

I realize that, I'm just saying that I don't think such a problem exists and I wouldn't worry about it. I love the SS. It looks *great* with the IN76. Then I go home and an bummed out that my picture isn't as good. Are you saying you saw a problem and took a photo of it, or you noticed the problem in the photo itself?

I saw the problem about a week ago and mentioned it, but then I decided to get a picture of it this morning. Since I am a total amateur at photography I couldn't seem to capture what I was seeing. Finally with the flash off and the image moving I could get a picture that captured it correctly, even though the sample I used is horrible (quality wise).or you noticed the problem in the photo itself?Sorry, I realize you were asking to make sure, but I got a chuckle out of that. That would be pretty funny if I was concerned with how it photographs. :)

Ok, my HD Tivo arrived today and the picture on my IN76 just got a whole lot better!!! I watched part of Robots, which was on HBO. That was about as clean as I can imagine. I watched a little of a basketball game and then watched Numb3rs.

I am glad I decided to spring for the money, the combination of being able to have TV shows fill my 16x9 screen, rather than having sidebars, and then the difference in quality is just amazing.

One question I do have though. What output should I use, 720p or 1080i? I believe it was the projector central review that said they got the best picture on the IN76 when outputting from a DVD player at 1080i rather than 720p. Would the same hold true with my HD Tivo?
I mentioned earlier in the thread that I prefer letting my Tivo output 720p over 1080i. For one thing, ABC and Fox shows are in 720p, and that's the majority of what I watch (Lost, Alias, 24) and for another, I prefer the way the Tivo converts 1080i shows (such as CSI) to 720p over letting the IN76 do it.

Kevivoe

So I feel qualified to ask you what you're talking about?

"All those people who spent so much money on a screen that "should last them a life time" are going to be watching 1080p diffused to <720p"

Most manufacturers advertise you can spend a large sum on a "good screen" since it will last through many projector upgrades. In my opinion, diffusing screens do nothing for HDTV or HD-DVD resolution. They are resolution limiting. Put up the sharpness adjustment pattern and see if you can see all vertical lines as they get narrower and narrower. They blend/melt away with some screens.

If you want a 3D like image you need resolution, clear optics and a non-diffusing screen.

I won't ask you why you felt need to correct 20/25, 20/20 vision:

I complained to the eye Dr. that my eye sight was degraded. She tweaked the dials and wrote a prescription. I am now back to age 16 vision. It's no good having 480i eyes in an 100,000p world.

k

Guys,

My room has white walls and a white ceiling. Should I go with 1.0 matte white screen or 1.4 gain screen ? It looks like I might loose perceived sharpness ( and I really like sharpness a lot ) when I go for 1.4 gain. On the other hand I guess my bigger image will need more gain. HELP !!

This would be the screen I'm going for ( but in 1.4 gain version ) :

http://cgi.benl.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=9710356035&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Any comment ?

With all due respect to kevivoe - one should not be making screen selections based on his choices. They are not the best selections for the IN7x. 20/10 vision is more of a curse than a blessing. I have had only 10% of my customers that could not see past the screen surfaces because of their vision - the other 90% of you should consider yourself lucky that you can choose a screen that is best for your room and projector - rather than being cursed with narrow choices by your eyes.

No disrespect taken. The only screen I could accept now is the Da-Lite Pearlescent. But I am reviewing Draper screens later this afternoon. I like the looks of the HiDef Grey, very smooth. Accept is maybe too strong a term. I could accept a few of them, it's just that I see that one as better for 3D like images.

The 90% that are lucky ... will they be seeing what a 1080 or a 4k projector can do for them? Does everyone know there are scales on Marlin and Doree (and most fish) in Finding Nemo? Do you see them?

Perhaps everyone here can reduce their image size down 30% and tell me if you like the picture better. If you see no appreciable "resolution" difference then 1080 is not for you. Me, I'll need 1080 for sure as I have a 118" diagonal.

k

Most manufacturers advertise you can spend a large sum on a "good screen" since it will last through many projector upgrades. In my opinion, diffusing screens do nothing for HDTV or HD-DVD resolution. They are resolution limiting. Put up the sharpness adjustment pattern and see if you can see all vertical lines as they get narrower and narrower. They blend/melt away with some screens.

If you want a 3D like image you need resolution, clear optics and a non-diffusing screen.



I complained to the eye Dr. that my eye sight was degraded. She tweaked the dials and wrote a prescription. I am now back to age 16 vision. It's no good having 480i eyes in an 100,000p world.

k

Actually it is impossible to discern the vertical lines on a sharpness/resolution wedge from a DVD. The DVD format is designed to be scaled - you will have scaling artifacts bumping 720 lines up to 854 no matter what you do - ditto with the downscaling to 640.

So you need to do the test with the scan lines but even then 480i (240p) goes into 720P - but it requires absolutely no overscan. I am sorry but the notion that a screen blurs scanlines into each other (aside from glass beaded) simply is not the case. You are perceiving a sharper picture because the high frequency edge of the pixel - which is not information in the source - has greater clarity on some screens - on other screens that edge gets blurred. It does not mean that one cannot see scanlines!

I have done testing with a HD pattern generator on all these screens - you are not losing resolution. The 1.5 gain screens you are recommending are way to high for movie brightness levels unless one is over 11' wide. Fine if your goal is moderate TV brightness on a 8' screen. The primary consideration for a screen is what gain is needed for what brightness you want for the size you want -much more important than the clarity of SDE.

Kraz/Kev,

I hear what you both are saying, I can see the SDE even past 2x. 4805/BOC. but to me its much better/more acceptable than the "honeycomb" grain my old CRT set, so I think its a matter of degrees. I guess I need to stay away from seeing Higher Rez projectors on good screens:) If I saw a direct A/B comparison I'm sure I'd want what you guys are talking about.

The 1.5 gain screens you are recommending are way to high for movie brightness levels unless one is over 11' wide. Fine if your goal is moderate TV brightness on a 8' screen.


I do not recommend everyone do what I do. I do want a 10' HDTV that's why I prefer 1.4-1.5 gain and no diffusing "film like" image. Plasma at a fraction of the cost. At one time I toyed with phosphorus additives (Modern Masters paints) to boost the after glow.

12 ft-L does nothing for me. Give me 25 ft-L and I am happy. By the way I tried 40 ft-L and developed eye strain after extended viewing. 25 ft-L is a good compromise for theater with pop and HDTV.

No one who has seen my setup has ever left saying it was not hands down better than any theater they have ever been to. I can imagine this is true of most home theater setups and is not unique to mine.

k

Kraz/Kev,

I hear what you both are saying, I can see the SDE even past 2x. 4805/BOC. but to me its much better/more acceptable than the "honeycomb" grain my old CRT set, so I think its a matter of degrees. I guess I need to stay away from seeing Higher Rez projectors on good screens:) If I saw a direct A/B comparison I'm sure I'd want what you guys are talking about.


How large is you screen? SDE is relative to PJ DMD resolution and Screen height. I conclude you have great eye sight, a large screen (100" diagonal or larger) and a desire for sharpness too. I would guess the optics are above average on your PJ also.

If you don't want to spend upwards of $2000 stay away from IN76 demos. If you're in my neighborhood I'd invite you over and then point you to kras for the PJ.

By the way, what makes a Sim2 C3X so much more desireable over any other 720p DLP? It has got to be the clarity ... I dare not see one of them.

k

too bad I don't sell online - I should make it my mission to upgrade all those SP4805ers in the monster threads! I guess I have been negligent in stopping by that neighborhood....Actually dmcdayton - the DaLite HCCV has more optical clarity than the BOC - the wide viewing angle and bit of a weave tends to diffuse out the SDE on the BOC - as well as the elevated blacks from white wall reflections lowering on screen contrast.. This was one of the first things we noticed when we compared the fullsize versions of both at DaGamePimps.

kevivoe
Three chippers are more desireable because of lumens - no color wheel to dim the image, no rainbows, no dithering....I highly suggest you stay away from the Ruby though - no defined pixels for a smooth film like image....SP777 though - that is something to wish for! Too bad you don't like the surface sheen of a SilverStar - that combined with Infocus really does have that plasma glow to it!

Hi guys,

With my IN76 I am planning to upgrade from a 78 inch matte white wall to a 110 inch matte white 1.0 gain screen. Will I be loosing a lot of brightness ? If so, should I go for higher gain ? I'm afraid higher gain will decrease black levels and take away sharpness. I have white walls and a white ceiling. I do however only watch at night.

Brightness is inverse ratio to area - in this case brightness is cut in half.

a matte white screen is your worst option for a white room. Bump up to a 1.1 gain grey and you are at 24->12ftL (EOL) - bump down to a 0.8 gain grey and you are 16->8ftL. Movie standard is 12ftL - TV standard is 3x that. Your small screen is now 48->24ftL or TV bright - which at night in the dark really is too bright - but if you wanted to achieve that you need a 2.0 gain screen - so your options are limited - especially with pulldowns.

I am planning to upgrade from a 78 inch matte white wall to a 110 inch matte white 1.0 gain screen.Have you ever heard of the InFocus screen calculator (http://infocus.com/service/IN72/downloads/in72-74-76%20calculator%20-%20english.xls)?

Learn to use it.

A 110" (diag) screen will have half the brightness of a 78" (diag) which in your case will still be twice too bright if Hollywood (SMPTE) standard is your goal.

This may be a stupid question, but what is the screen gain on blackout fabric?

Also, I can not get over how great the colors are out of the box! I have not tweaked it and they are amazing! I can not believe how good they look already! I'm in no hurry at all to adjust settings!

Well I took the plunge and my 65" Sony XBR is out the door and the IN76 is on its way. The question now is screens. I have been looking at the Da-Lite HCCV and the Pearlescent with a 110" screen size. The room it will be going in will have a white ceiling with dark walls and light carpet. I was leaning towards the HCCV material to bring out the blacks, but after reading the comments in the last couple pages I'm not sure if it will be a good choice. My budget for a screen is limited to about $500-700 at this point and the Da-Lite seems to be about the best in the price range. Any input would be appreciated.

Well I took the plunge and my 65" Sony XBR is out the door and the IN76 is on its way. The question now is screens. I have been looking at the Da-Lite HCCV and the Pearlescent with a 110" screen size. The room it will be going in will have a white ceiling with dark walls and light carpet. I was leaning towards the HCCV material to bring out the blacks, but after reading the comments in the last couple pages I'm not sure if it will be a good choice. My budget for a screen is limited to about $500-700 at this point and the Da-Lite seems to be about the best in the price range. Any input would be appreciated.

Don't put too much weight into my ratings for other reasons. I rate the pearlescent high due to more 3D like resolution and not the steep gain curve (it has one) or diffusion (it has little which I like). The steep gain curve is not desireable for me either just like the high power.

I may have judged the Stewart Ultramatte 150 too harshly. It is a pretty smooth screen with 1.5 gain and very flat gain curve BUT it is >$1700. With white walls/ceiling this could lead to wash out.

A Da-Lite perma wall in HCCV would look good with the IN76. You would be happy with it with a 110" diagonal. My problem is that I am at 118"-119" diagonal and not much is making me happy. If I zoom to a 110" diagonal I am much more happy with the resolution/picture. I also have a 57" 1080i CRT TV so you understand my point of reference.

A Da-Lite perma wall in HCCV @ 110" is a very good value. You can build a frame around this screen easy enough also.

k

For those of you thinking of sending me a PM along the lines of "here is a quote from my local installer - can you help me out with pricing" I have repeatedly said online I do not sell online - and really am not happy second guessing other installers. If I was that other installer - I would be PO if someone else shredded my local install quote as I run my biz on the golden rule. I am here to help - not to undercut someone else.

So ask your system questions on the forum.....in the future that will be my PM response - rude as it may seem...I might provide advice on what I would do - but I don't run the other guys biz - my advice is IMPO. I don't mind the this vs. that questions on PM as those tend to inflame the forum - and everyones setup is unique.

back to your regularly scheduled programming.

jeahrens

HCCV is a good middle choice - maybe even darker HCDM if you want movie like, or CV if you want TV like. I suggested the HCCV at 92" for the SP4805 - and many are happy with that setup (some put ND2 filter if too brite - more lamp mileage!) - so I have no problem upgrading that advice with IN76 at 110". This is one of the reason I like DaLite - the range of similar viewing angle angular reflective screens - HCDM, HCCV, CV with gains of 0.8, 1.1, and 1.3 respectively lets me tune the room/preference setup. Of course Stewart is the best if you can afford it! (GH, FH, ST130 similar range)

Do as I suggest get the samples and double tape stretch them on black poster board - view them sequentially. 90% of the people are not going to have kevivoes problem with screen surfaces - they only see what they do for the room. I cannot even see what he is seeing with the 1.5 gain Pearl surface - it is retroreflective so the only way I could tell it from CV was directly at the projector lens - I always mix these two samples up on my board. Maybe reformulated - they often do - have had to eat screens for those 10% out there because of it (FYI - HCDM is not matte grey - it is a dark grey with gain)

If you do plan an arts&crafts frame for WAF - then you are better off buying canvas stretcher bars and the raw screen fabric to stretch and staple. I am doing that very thing for my "plasmer" simulator above the fireplace for WAF reasons - as I dented the 60" SilverStar :( PlayBig does not fit the throw change from the ScreenPlay series anyways - and with plaster ceilings no way am I moving the mount. Luckily this is for biz - so I have a built-in WAF excuse why I need to go bigger :D

For those using the Premier Universal spyder mount - I got 6" lens drop by removing the second leg segment - it fits perfectly over the center if you rotate it slightly so the arrow tab points SE rather than S. You lose lateral shift capability without the second leg segment - but it cost you another inch of drop.

This may be a stupid question, but what is the screen gain on blackout fabric?

Also, I can not get over how great the colors are out of the box! I have not tweaked it and they are amazing! I can not believe how good they look already! I'm in no hurry at all to adjust settings!

I would suggest BlackOut cloth is 1.0 with a wide viewing angle causing washout - compare it to HCCV here...


http://krasmuzik.biz/portfolio/BOCvsHCCV.JPG

I have a 106" Da-Snap high power, but my projector is ceiling mounted. Do you guys think the In76 would be too bright? The screen gain drops quite a bit with a ceiling mount. I use an PT-L300U now but it's much too dim, almost unusable in the daytime because a fair bit of light comes around my shades

I wouldn't go darker than the HCCV (which I prefered with my 4805) because after 1000 hours the bulb gets dimmer, as mine has, and I wouldn't take a darker screen now if someone gave it to me.

I wouldn't go darker than the HCCV (which I prefered with my 4805) because after 1000 hours the bulb gets dimmer, as mine has, and I wouldn't take a darker screen now if someone gave it to me.

This is why I prefer to design for 24ftL - lamp margin. People forget that ANSI lamp life is an average with unspecified deviation in ideal conditions - YMMV indeed applies to your install. Anymore seems people want screens that are bigger than their room - leaving me scratching my head how to figure out the install so they will be happy in the end!

price3

I would assume you are getting 1.5 gain in the center seat maybe 1.0 in side seats. It will work with light coming in and be TV bright - at least in the center. It will be much brighter than your old Panny LCD...

Infocus has the USB to M1 cable on backorder. Anyone know of a place that has it in stock. PM me if posting in the open forum isn't ok. Thx

Infocus has the USB to M1 cable on backorder. Anyone know of a place that has it in stock. PM me if posting in the open forum isn't ok. Thx

Give bub a PM. He mailed it to me and I sent it to another AVS Member. It cost me $2.07......

Infocus has the USB to M1 cable on backorder. Anyone know of a place that has it in stock. PM me if posting in the open forum isn't ok. Thx

I bought a M1-DVI-D dongle with a breakout USB socket from Blue Jean cables. It's a single unit with a DVI-D female socket and a regular USB socket. I call it the "Big Ugly Blue" 'cuz it's big and ugly and blue.

they're out there. check resellers and disti's

infocus sells these through the channel. they personally may be backordered, but i know there's stock at a couple distis

I have a 106" Da-Snap high power, but my projector is ceiling mounted. Do you guys think the In76 would be too bright? The screen gain drops quite a bit with a ceiling mount. I use an PT-L300U now but it's much too dim, almost unusable in the daytime because a fair bit of light comes around my shades

Not sure about the screen gain, but I also had a PT-L300U and moved to the IN76. I was amazed the other day when I watched a show during the day. The IN76 is much brighter but I never have a problem with being "too bright". There is no direct light on the screen and the IN76 does a much better job!

I have my IN76 sitting on a table throwing a 110" image from about 15' onto a dark beige wall. I don't have window coverings for two 6'X5' windows yet so I don't watch until after dusk.

I run at hi-power until complete darkness when I find that the image is too bright for me and switch back to low lamp setting.

If I find the high setting too bright even with a dark beige painted wall, should I limit my screen material choice to one of the grays?

I have my IN76 sitting on a table throwing a 110" image from about 15' onto a dark beige wall. I don't have window coverings for two 6'X5' windows yet so I don't watch until after dusk.

I run at hi-power until complete darkness when I find that the image is too bright for me and switch back to low lamp setting.

If I find the high setting too bright even with a dark beige painted wall, should I limit my screen material choice to one of the grays?

You can also use a gain of 1 matte white. There are a couple of decent ones out there. Screen Innovations reference 1.1 seems pretty good compared to others in that league.

k

I have a feeling there might be some new in76 owners soon... I'm being tempted myself. :)

But I must resist.....

I have a feeling there might be some new in76 owners soon... I'm being tempted myself. :)

But I must resist.....

No doubt a FAQqer will be needed - so might as well get yourself one so we have someone who knows how to FAQ!

Since it has 2x the pixels of the SP4805 - it is certainly worth 2x the original MSRP of the SP4805! Somewhat dubious WAF argument - but worth a try!

FYI: I didn't mention this in an earlier post talking about what I liked and didn't like (louder than expected) about the IN76.

I saw rainbows on my BenQ PB6100 (2x color wheel). They didn't drive me crazy, but on scenes with a lot of black, or shadowy areas, but that also had something white or bright, I would see rainbows if I looked away quickly, turned my head, flitted (is that a word?) my eyes left or right, etc.

I still see them on the IN76. Again, it isn't all the time, but I do see them. I had Lasik a few years ago, and I no longer wear glasses, but my eyes are borderline needing glasses again. I am tested at 20/20, but when my eyes are dialated, I have quite a bit of farshightedness and some astigmatism. If my eyes are tired at the end of the day, my vision goes down hill. I think I see the rainbow effect more when my eyes are tired. I can't swear 100% to this, but that is what it seems like.

Anyway, I did want to let people know that I saw them on my old 2x color wheel projector, and I see them on the 4x color wheel projector. I was hoping that wouldn't be the case, but I do. I still prefer this to the AE900 that I had for one weekend, between the burn in and VB of LCD, it was not an option for me.

Try a dimmer setup to minimize rainbows - what is your screen size&material?

118" / Carada BW.

Seating is about 14' from the screen.

I went with the brilliant white because I use my projector as my primary TV and therefore need to eek out as much bulb life as possible. In 27 months, I put just over 5500 hours on my BenQ 6100.

you've got a lot of time on your hands...I only wish I had 6 hrs a day to watch TV. ;)

Tnedator

actually Carada is not the stated gain - but even so you are above teens ftL which some consider too brite. I suggest trying to hack on a ND2 filter to dim it down likely rainbows go away - then you watch until too dim then go back to a less brite unfiltered lamp down the road.

And if that does not do it - try a bias lite. The Carada is wide viewing angle so you need to make sure the screen does not pick up the light though.

I have infocus 4805 and my problem is the fan noise. It is too loud. When I turn on the heater and the temperature goes to 26 degree Celsius (about 79 Fahrenheit), the noise of the fan drives me crazy. My pj is placed in the ceiling. (2,90 m, about 9,5 feet).
Do you thing buying the IN76 will I solve the noise problem?

I have infocus 4805 and my problem is the fan noise. It is too loud. When I turn on the heater and the temperature goes to 26 degree Celsius (about 79 Fahrenheit), the noise of the fan drives me crazy. My pj is placed in the ceiling. (2,90 m, about 9,5 feet).
Do you thing buying the IN76 will I solve the noise problem?

I have never heard the 4805, but the IN76 is by no means quiet. It is defintely louder than my 2 year old BenQ 6100. If noise is a major factor for you, then the IN76 might not be the best choice.

This is from the projectorcentral review: (http://www.projectorcentral.com/infocus_play_big_in76.htm)

"Fan noise. InFocus has tended to lag behind the competition in managing audible noise, and that tradition continues with the IN76. Progress has been made, and this model is somewhat quieter than its predecessors. But it is not as quiet as many of its competitors, some of which have gotten to be almost silent. In normal lamp mode (which is the lower of the two settings), fan noise may be described as above average for this class of projector, but acceptable. Normal movie or TV audio tracks will obliterate it, and viewers will become unconscious of the fan noise unless the projector is placed in extremely close proximity. Ceiling mounting the IN76 will get the projector some distance away from the viewers and this will mitigate the audible noise issue to a large degree. Switching the lamp to high power mode produces not only a 30% increase in lumen output, but a significant increase in fan noise as well. For occasional party use this is a great option to have. But for quality home theater, many users will opt for the lower power setting, not only to minimize audible noise but to increase lamp life. "

Well, bad news for me. I had bought the IN76 to hang in my parent's theater I'm building. So I took it over last night and rigged a temporary setup so they could watch a movie. My mother lasted 10 minutes before she developed a splitting migraine and had to leave. She apparently is one of those people who is affected by the movement of a DLP color wheel :(. Not good. Going to have to put this up for sale in the sale forum now and find them an LCD I guess. Pity, it's a really nice unit.

Well, bad news for me. I had bought the IN76 to hang in my parent's theater I'm building. So I took it over last night and rigged a temporary setup so they could watch a movie. My mother lasted 10 minutes before she developed a splitting migraine and had to leave. She apparently is one of those people who is affected by the movement of a DLP color wheel :(. Not good. Going to have to put this up for sale in the sale forum now and find them an LCD I guess. Pity, it's a really nice unit.

That's unfortunate, would the ND2 filter help in this case (though, it would look kind of tacky to tape a filter over of lens).

I don't think it's a lumens issue, I think it is the actual motion of the color wheel. My wife has this to a far lesser extent. The 4805 gave her mild headaches even with an ND2 filter. Pity :(. It's up for sale now, so hopefully I don't lose my shirt on it.

I hope you were not showing the governator killing stuff. Not good for WAF demos. Remember - anything with Hugh Grant means guaranteed no headaches!

You'll laugh but we were watching "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" ;) Johnny Depp is a good Hugh Grant substitute when need be.

I just got my IN76 installed yesterday. I was waiting for what seemed like an eternity for the Panasonic AE900, but my dealer was unable to get it from his supplier. I then "settled" for the IN76. I had a good idea that the picture would be better, but I was also fearing the loud fan (I have good hearing...and an anal personality).

Install went relatively flawless yesterday, pairing it with a Stewart Firehawk 96" with pro-trim. Really gorgeous image...far exceeding the Panasonic Da-Lite combo I had been looking at in another store. I was so concerned about offset being a problem on this and bumping my image too low, I actually kept the projector very tight to the ceiling (7'2") and the picture is too high on the wall now. I will lower it over the next weeks.

My only problem is the fan noise. I am running in low power, and the fan gets louder when the high power is engaged...so no "problem" with the fan in that respect. The fan noise, however, is still too loud for me. I want to keep the unit...as I am more than satisfied with the image. I just want to make it less noisy. I am thinking of building a hush box or something similar. Any ideas for this?

My initial thought was this: keep a box lined with foam around the projector with a hole for the lens. Keep the box open at the back for air to circulate in and out (make sure the box ins't TOO tight left-to-right). I am sitting in front of the projector, so this would definitely "cut-down" on air/fan noise, but I am concerned about it not allowing enough airflow. Comments? I don't/can't make a big box that hangs low as my ceiling is very low as mentioned.

Thanks.

Hi guys,

I'm dutch-speaking and not at all fluent in speaking or writing English. I'll do my best to put my question to you all and describe the best I can what is troubling me, so try and bare with me.

I use my IN76 pj in a room that has a white ceiling and white walls. I watch at night only. I project on a matte white-painted wall with black borders.

Now, when the image is supposed to be black, it really isn't ... the screen lights up a bit. I know that is a normal thing as the DMD does always project a little light.

But, am I right in thinking that in order for ambient light to make any difference to the overall image, the amount of ambient light has to be greater than the minimum light that is coming from the projector ?

I ask this because I noticed that when white text appears ( e.g. end-credits ) the room lights up because of the light coming from the white text on the screen, but it doesn't visibly make the dark part of the image any lighter, because the dark part is already more brilliant than the light bounced back from the ceiling and walls. What I am trying to get at is this : I see no point in a pitch black room with black walls and a black ceiling if the minimum light coming from the pj when projecting a black image exceeds the ambient light I get from whit walls and a white ceiling.

Simply put with an example : if I shine a light on a wall that has a brightness of 10 ( whatever units ) and I shine second light on the same spot that has a brightness of 5 ( whatever units ) that will not result in a total brightness of 15 units or will It ?

Does all of this make any sense and does it lead up to the reason for using a ND2 filter ? Can I use the ND2 filter to eliminate the amount of light that comes from the DMD when all the mirrors are 'black' ?

It seems to me that for the moment in my present setup, my white walls and ceiling and the resulting ambient light doesn't make my blacks worse because in darker scenes the ambient light is weaker than the minimum light coming from the PJ.

Please clarify.

Hi, I can buy a SP4805 at good price; It's very proclive this pj to dust blobs?; may be worth pay the extra for the sealed optics of the IN72?

Thanks.

Welcome to the forum chichopf. Some people have had dust blobs, personally I've never seen one, thankfully. Still, the fix seems to be relatively easy. Some members have posted instructions as to how best to try getting rid of the dust blobs. I wouldn't fret about. Go get it, and you'll be glad you did.

Hi guys,
I use my IN76 pj in a room that has a white ceiling and white walls. I watch at night only. I project on a matte white-painted wall with black borders.

I don't think this setup is such a bad idea for only night watching.


Now, when the image is supposed to be black, it really isn't ... the screen lights up a bit. I know that is a normal thing as the DMD does always project a little light.

You have to wait for an even better DC3 projector just like me. I think with a measured contrast ratio of only 1500:1 the room is not such a big deal. Now, when we buy 4000:1 or 5000:1 measured contrast ratio projectors, then the walls color may matter more. I mean measured CR not specified CR.


But, am I right in thinking that in order for ambient light to make any difference to the overall image, the amount of ambient light has to be greater than the minimum light that is coming from the projector ?

Any ambient light on the screen seems to destroy the contrast ratio seen.



Simply put with an example : if I shine a light on a wall that has a brightness of 10 ( whatever units ) and I shine second light on the same spot that has a brightness of 5 ( whatever units ) that will not result in a total brightness of 15 units or will It ?

Does all of this make any sense and does it lead up to the reason for using a ND2 filter ? Can I use the ND2 filter to eliminate the amount of light that comes from the DMD when all the mirrors are 'black' ?



I don't see how an ND2 filter improves contrast ratio. It only reduces projected lumens. I would think to overcome some ambient light you want to boost lumens . This is my uneducated opinion based on what I have experienced.

k

My only problem is the fan noise. I am running in low power, and the fan gets louder when the high power is engaged...so no "problem" with the fan in that respect. The fan noise, however, is still too loud for me. I want to keep the unit...as I am more than satisfied with the image. I just want to make it less noisy. I am thinking of building a hush box or something similar. Any ideas for this?


Yep, it's loud. Good luck building the box.

I've been seriously considering buying the Optoma H72 but I prefer to buy from Costco and they currently are selling the IN76 so I'm temped but it is quite a bit more than the H72.

Offset of the H72 is not an issue for me. I have a highly adjustable setup. (Screen wall mounted and projector on rear shelf with 5-6 height levels) In fact I would have to adjust it more to use the Infocus since I'm using a H27 now. But I digress..

Can you guys tell me what the IN76 does better than the H72 so I can decide to wait till Costco sells the H72 (if they ever do) or just pull the trigger on the Infocus?

Thanks

Me too. I'm torn between these 2. I have an Optoma h57 that I'm selling which I love! But the 1080-540-720 worries me about the h72.

:)

Three of the main reasons I chose the IN76 over the HD72 was first the offset and second was because the IN76 weaves 1080i instead of bobs it like the HD72. This way you don't lose any resolution on 1080i material. The third reason was because the IN76 has almost perfect calibration our of the box. The HD72 has brilliant color which would be nice to have on the IN76, but ultimately you have decide what you want and in my case it was easily the IN76. YMMV.

Can you guys tell me what the IN76 does better than the H72 so I can decide to wait till Costco sells the H72 (if they ever do) or just pull the trigger on the Infocus?

Thanks

Why would you buy the IN76 from Costco when you can get it substantially cheaper from an authorized delaer ? I realize Costco has a very good return policy, but you're still paying much more than you would if you bought it elsewhere.

I had that problem with a dust blob or something in the optical path on a brand new IN76...

I was pretty impressed with how quickly InFocus got this taken care of. I did pay the $10 for shipping it back to them, but they shipped a brand new replacement unit back to me on the same day they received it. I shipped it and got it back within the same week. Nice.

Me too. I'm torn between these 2. I have an Optoma h57 that I'm selling which I love! But the 1080-540-720 worries me about the h72.

:)

great stuff regarding Bob and Weave on this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=657648

Visually I haven't been able to see a difference between straight 720P and 1080i to the h72. If it does the bob it does a marvelous job at it. Maybe if I used a magnifier but at 8 feet back or so it's pretty tough to tell.

Eventually all my source devices will probably weave so it will become a moot point anyway.

It's note MUTE, it's MOOT. ;)

It's note MUTE, it's MOOT. ;)


Ok smartie pants it isn't "note" it's not. Give an old guy with a cold a break will ya?

:p

Why would you buy the IN76 from Costco when you can get it substantially cheaper from an authorized delaer ? I realize Costco has a very good return policy, but you're still paying much more than you would if you bought it elsewhere.


That's the rub. it is more expensive at Costco, but I guess to be fair, you may want to add some to the cost from the auth. dealers for extended warranty. Say, add 2 years. Then the price is closer, and it becomes a question: Would you rather be able to return it forever, or actually get it fixed for 3 years if you have a problem. I suspect the answer may lie in how long you want to own the thing. If you are going to upgrade to 1080 in a few years, Costco's policy is not that useful. But if you want the PJ to last 10 years, it starts to look attractive.

Correct me if I'm wrong but when I last researched Costco's return policy they had just changed it for projectors to the same policy they have for computers.

Well it seems that InFocus marketing are displaying their questionable ethics again!

After shutting down HTS, the AVS Club Power Buy dealer, for offering a group discount to AVS members they are quite happy to continue to support Costco who are blatantly advertising the IN76 below MAP (http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?prodid=11119529&whse=BC&topnav=&cat=28315&hierPath=79*28314*28315*) to the public at large.

I called InFocus just now to confirm whether or not Costco was an "authorized reseller" and was assured that they were. I asked why Costco could advertise below MAP while other, smaller dealers like HTS were cut-off and was told that it was because Costco requires a membership fee and only sells to its members at that price.

I pointed out to InFocus that costco.com will sell to anyone ("Shoppers that are not Costco Wholesale members will be charged a 5% surcharge over the member's posted product prices.") but this did not seem to bother them. So much for their support of the AVS Club!

Twits.

On another matter, my wife's SP4805 stopped functioning properly within a week of her getting it; an RMA was issued in the first week of February and the projector shipped back. As of today, [b]more than three months later, it is still "waiting for parts" with no ETA of when InFocus is expecting them.

Twits.

I used to be one of the biggest supporters (and perhaps even a "cheerleader") for InFocus ... hell, I even started this thread ... but have you ever had the experience of having something sweet go sour in your mouth??!!

It's hard to believe that such great products can come from such a sleazy company. BobW must find it a little frustrating to work there.

cavu,

Regardless of what I thought of your pj comparison, motor vehicle analogy, and upscaling signature, you have my full support on your stance on this matter. I thought exactly the same way when I saw the IN76 on Costco's site.

Rick

I also don't really know what Infocus is doing in light of the HD72's new incentives...free extra bulb and one extra year of warranty and with an Oppo and couple of MonoPrice DVI cables price difference. How can Infocus compete? And they still insist on this silly MAP game. I just called 2 dealers and one said IN76 isn't very popular and another said they stopped carrying it.

pj comparison, motor vehicle analogySince my stroke, my short term memory is pathetic and, perhaps fortunately, I have no recollection of what you refer to.

;)

Correct me if I'm wrong but when I last researched Costco's return policy they had just changed it for projectors to the same policy they have for computers.

I'll go ahead and correct you. If you look at the return policy under a desktop computer it clearly states 6 months. If you look at any HT projector is simply states Costco return policy applies which is unlimited.

On another matter, my wife's SP4805 stopped functioning properly within a week of her getting it; an RMA was issued in the first week of February and the projector shipped back. As of today, more than three months later, it is still "waiting for parts" with no ETA of when InFocus is expecting them.


My friend was in the same boat. No ETA on parts to repair his projector. (He did have his for a couple of months). After calling and talking to a few different people he got them to just send him out a refurbished unit. He was only patient enough to wait 3 weeks. I suggest you call and keep calling back until you get the right person. Squeaky wheel gets the grease as they say...

STOP THE PRICE DISCUSSION! Stop the dealer links, the non-MSRP talk, etc; You all know better.

Ok, here is my 2c on Infocus, without trying to mention names and numbers.

One unnamed retailer shows the inventory numbers for the 72 and 76 if you add many items to the cart. They have not budged in 3 weeks. Other items change daily. That is pretty scary for an exciting new product. It should be running on limited inventory. I also talked to some retailers and they said to think twice before you buy it, as much as they wanted to make a sale.

Infocus has no business sense. I know what retailers can charge on those units and make a decent profit. The pana AE900 (LCD) is also competition for these units and you could have two of those (after rebate) for the price of one IN76. So is the HD72. A one year warranty is also risky too, consdering all the moving parts in this PJ. Also, the DLP colorwheel will always have the risk of annoying people who come to your theatre. Especially first timers - I know it would bother me. I'm not saying its a bad product but I don't agree with their pricing strategy. You just can't do that if you have so much competition. You cant price an entry level PC at $999 in this market. Most people see the MSRP and that all retailers are charging it and don't bother to haggle. It is out of budget and simply buy something else with very similar specs.

I was reading their financials and news and Infocus is not doing very well. If I was running that company I would want to get as many units out the door as possible with a reasonable profit. The one year warranty is also low risk for that company and should be reflected in the price. Almost two years into my warranty my epson had a small issue that I could probably live with and they overnighted a new one to me. No waiting for parts or shipping issues. I can see forcing retail pricing on a product with that assurance.

Imagine if the IN76 was MSRPED at say $1600 or even $2k. They would make a smaller profit on it but they probably wouldn't be able to keep up with demand. The specs aren't THAT special compared the Optoma and others.

Also, it is crazy to run after retailers who are trying to make sales on their product and imposing price limits. I understand the logic behind doing it, but not on a product like this. I spoke to reputable retailers who had issues with infocus. THat scheme is wise to do if you have no competion with very high demand. Definately not in this case.

Also, the new 4805s that are EOL should be allowed to have lower prices. The price variation among autorized resellers is very tight.

Infocus should rethink their business strategy, just my 2c.

I also don't really know what Infocus is doing in light of the HD72's new incentives...free extra bulb and one extra year of warranty and with an Oppo and couple of MonoPrice DVI cables price difference. How can Infocus compete? And they still insist on this silly MAP game. I just called 2 dealers and one said IN76 isn't very popular and another said they stopped carrying it.

One unnamed retailer shows the inventory numbers for the 72 and 76 if you add many items to the cart. They have not budged in 3 weeks. Other items change daily.

And I know of another unnamed retailer that had their stock depleted. Not sure if unverified online inventory numbers on one site are indicative of overall popularity... Maybe.

Infocus has no business sense. I know what retailers can charge on those units and make a decent profit. The pana AE900 (LCD) is also competition for these units and you could have two of those (after rebate) for the price of one IN76.

So, after rebate, the AE900 is only $1100?

Most people see the MSRP and that all retailers are charging it and don't bother to haggle. It is out of budget and simply buy something else with very similar specs.

Retailers have the option to not charge the MSRP. I think the MAP rules are dumb, but all a retailer has to do to get around them is cross out the price and stick a little "Click here for price" or "Add to cart to see price" on there. That's it. There are plenty of sites that do this to get around MAP. It works. If I see the MAP crossed out, I'll click the link to see what the site is selling it for.

Also, it is crazy to run after retailers who are trying to make sales on their product and imposing price limits.

They aren't imposing price limits. Any retailer can sell an IN76 for whatever they want to sell it for. They can sell it to you for $1 if they want to take the loss. They just can't openly advertise that they are selling it for less than MAP. Yeah, I agree, the fact that they can't openly advertise a good deal is counter-productive to sales. BUT, anyone interested in an IN76 who wants to get one pretty close to your wishful $2k MSRP can do so. I did. And if you're posting in this forum, you sure don't have to look very far to find that kind of a deal on it.

If you think that they could sell the IN76 at $1600 and NOT be losing money with each unit you are badly wrong.

Edited... cavu, feel free to PM me about why. Before anyone screams conspiracy theory just accept that there are valid reasons.

Everyone else... stop. We don't need any more discussion about dealers and whether or not they are violating MAP deals. If you want a good price, shop around. That's it. Leave it alone.

Maybe I was talking to the wrong retailers. I know how to get that PJ for the right price. I have issues with rainbows so it is not the best choice for me, but that is another story.

I made my assuptions based on actual MSRP and yes, you could have two AE900s AR for that price. I'm talking about the average Joe going on Pricegrabber and getting scared away by the high MSRP price. Many etailers DO sell the unit for MSRP. Not everyone is in this forum and knows the inside deal on how to get a lower price. And if they do pick a lower price it may be from an unauthorized dealer, and then infocus can deny your warranty. An infocus rep told me that buying lower than MSRP could jepordize my warrany too.

Forcing you to advertise at that high price is not smart policy from a business point of view. Compare it to an Optoma HD72 on a shopping site and you will see why. The prices are extremely attractive, the warranty is longer and the specs are higher. What im saying is..what would make the infocus more attractive to the average buyer? It comes down more to a business rather than performance question.



And I know of another unnamed retailer that had their stock depleted. Not sure if unverified online inventory numbers on one site are indicative of overall popularity... Maybe.



So, after rebate, the AE900 is only $1100?



Retailers have the option to not charge the MSRP. I think the MAP rules are dumb, but all a retailer has to do to get around them is cross out the price and stick a little "Click here for price" or "Add to cart to see price" on there. That's it. There are plenty of sites that do this to get around MAP. It works. If I see the MAP crossed out, I'll click the link to see what the site is selling it for.



They aren't imposing price limits. Any retailer can sell an IN76 for whatever they want to sell it for. They can sell it to you for $1 if they want to take the loss. They just can't openly advertise that they are selling it for less than MAP. Yeah, I agree, the fact that they can't openly advertise a good deal is counter-productive to sales. BUT, anyone interested in an IN76 who wants to get one pretty close to your wishful $2k MSRP can do so. I did. And if you're posting in this forum, you sure don't have to look very far to find that kind of a deal on it.

Ok, no problem. True - This thread should be about getting the most out of your projector, not price wars.
Edited... cavu, feel free to PM me about why. Before anyone screams conspiracy theory just accept that there are valid reasons.

Everyone else... stop. We don't need any more discussion about dealers and whether or not they are violating MAP deals. If you want a good price, shop around. That's it. Leave it alone.

Thought others might be interested in what I devised that is equal to or better than the performance of most (not all) the commercial screens I have sampled.

You may click the thumbnail photos to jump offsite to larger images.

K

Front right side view.
http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/3453/frontright2cs.th.jpg (http://img463.imageshack.us/my.php?image=frontright2cs.jpg)

Looking back to component cabinet.
http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/3230/lookingrear6qc.th.jpg (http://img463.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lookingrear6qc.jpg)

Component cabinet under stairwell. A good place for them.
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/6997/component3fr.th.jpg (http://img105.imageshack.us/my.php?image=component3fr.jpg)

IN76 in 2.35:1 mode. House sconce on 30%.
http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/6468/infocusscreen4kq.th.jpg (http://img110.imageshack.us/my.php?image=infocusscreen4kq.jpg)

kevivoe, REALLY nice! I might have chosen a darker wood though :)

kevivoe, REALLY nice! I might have chosen a darker wood though :)

Most of the house is maple and it don't like dark stain. Around the screen is knotty alder. We have a cherry wet bar at the rear part of this room.

I debated a darker stain. We wanted to see the knots in the knotty alder so we went a bit lighter. There is a fireplace off to the right with rustic tiles so we wanted to match that "theme" in our rec room. Still need a rustic mantle. Debating what to do there also.

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/3637/fireplace1fi.th.jpg (http://img198.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fireplace1fi.jpg)

This is not a dedicated theater but a rec room with a theater as a central attraction. Still waiting on 2 rows of Berkline 090's. Need to build some portable risers before they get here. THEN my project will be complete.

k

I have my pj set up in my living room and have to compromise with some white walls. I was able paint the wall behind the screen and the adjacent wall a deep dark grey and the improvement was instantly noticable. That's why I was thinking your set up might have looked good with a darker surrounding area. Still, I think it's a beautiful and tastefully done home theater/rec room, bravo Kevivoe!

Looks really nice k, I echo Martins sentiment that the room would be more conducive to picture performance if it was darker, but you know that and have a compromise to deal with. Again, sweet rec room :)

Thought others might be interested in what I devised that is equal to or better than the performance of most (not all) the commercial screens I have sampled...

Very, very nice. I wish my house could accommodate something like this. Best place for me is the family room, but, well, it's the family room - although the PJ works well in there. Formal living/dining areas have the space and potential, but, for various reasons, I can't convert them to HT space. I won't be in the market for a new house for another 4 or 5 years... :( But I'll definitely know what to look for (although I'd prefer a more general-purpose media room than a dedicated home theater room - unless I can have BOTH) :D

My friend was in the same boat. No ETA on parts to repair his projector. (He did have his for a couple of months). After calling and talking to a few different people he got them to just send him out a refurbished unit. He was only patient enough to wait 3 weeks. I suggest you call and keep calling back until you get the right person. Squeaky wheel gets the grease as they say...
Same deal here. They offered me the refurb when I emailed and complained after 15 days of my 4805 in the shop. They guarantee the refurb will have fewer than 300 hours on the bulb and my original warranty dates will apply (I have 6 months left). The refurb should arrive tomorrow. I just pray it doesn't have a grinding color wheel or super loud fan.

Dan

I received my IN76 last week. So far I am very happy with it. I have it in a 14x18 foot room with 7 foot ceilings. The room is painted a cream color, and one of the first orders of business will be to paint it a darker color. For now I just have a 100" Boc for a screen, but I have some more stuff coming to try out later today. Mainly been playing xbox 360 on it, man it is fun. Will try and post some pictures in my user gallery later.
(What is the latest policy on posting screen shots in this thread?)
I am going to order a M1-DA (?) to DVI connector to hook up a computer. I sort of wish Infocus would have just put a DVI port with a seperate USB connector into the projector.

My IN76 is on its way and is replacing a 4805 that is ceiling mounted using a premier mount PBL 110. From their web site its seems that the mounting plate for the IN76 is not available yet. Is anybody aware of when it will be available?

The IN76 offset difference between the 4805 and IN76 is annoying. My ceiling mount is currently 3 inches to far from the screen. Also annoying is the offset difference of the center of the lens 2.1inches instead of 2.5inches. A little puzzle to solve.

The IN76 offset difference between the 4805 and IN76 is annoying. My ceiling mount is currently 3 inches to far from the screen.

Don't you just hate the shortening of the throw distance from 1 generation to the next.

Also annoying is the offset difference of the center of the lens 2.1inches instead of 2.5inches. A little puzzle to solve.

I would not worry about 0.4" of offset difference. A "slight" tilt at the PJ is all that is needed to correct for this. I currently have 2.25" made up with a tilt and see no adverse effects from 1x screen width viewing HD-DVD material. Get up close to within 2 feet and you may notice the pixels are not quite square in the lower left corner of my screen. The lower right is much better so I must also have a lateral shift of a couple inches also. 117" diagonal for reference.

k

Don't you just hate the shortening of the throw distance from 1 generation to the next.

k

Yes but what better WAF excuse is there "Honey I need to get a bigger screen because the throw and offset is shorter! Unless you want me poking more holes in the ceiling...." :D

Yes but when you have expensive screen (Da-lite Electrol tensioned) that make the screen increase expense.... so you endup poking more holes!!

Yes but when you have expensive screen (Da-lite Electrol tensioned) that make the screen increase expensive.... so you endup poking more holes!!

All I can say about their new design is that they should not have had an inset lens with no way to put on a threaded filter and should not have shortened the throw. Then the fan is still loud...

Then they aren't competing with the the HD72 from Optoma... they're probably getting creamed because the Optoma has incentives and the IN76 is still over priced for the market.

Also, I'm seeing a disturbing trend with DLP chip pricing... instead of bringing the better 720p DC3 chip and 7 segment color wheels down to this price range ($3,000 and under with significant street discounting) as the norm in order to make room for the new, true 1920x1080p chip projectors, TI lessens the quality of the chip and makes it 16x10 (with the possibility of light spill) in order to put them in cheaper projectors.

And why aren't 3 chip DC3 720p projectors (with spot on chip convergence) now taking the place in the ~$6,000-7,000 price range? What a great incentive! No more antiquated color wheel and no more rainbows! I think more people would bite.

From a business and technological advancement perspective, it makes no sense! What's the deal with TI??

Dan

FINALLY! A good old DLP/TI rant to spice up this thread.

Of course the answer, Dan, is 'market pricing'. Good business it to always charge a price that provides the maximum total margin. Do you really think if TI reduces its chip price by 25% they'd sell 3x more chips? Because that's about what would be needed to generate the same total margin.

I had a demo of a single chip DLP HD format last week. It was the best image a never experience to data. There are big advantages to the single chip machine. With a good optics you end up with a perfectly converged projector. Compare this with an LCOS 3 devices and will find the LCOS image dull compare to the single chip DLP.

These prices discussions are really annoying. Put an HD72, and IN76, and the toshiba on the same table and tell which one provide the best image no matter the cost. My answer is the IN76. The reality is that the price difference is around 10% of the projector which is not even worth discussing.

Way not take your TI rant to it's own thread? It does not belong in this one - and I am sure you will get a wider audience elsewhere even though it may not make it into the top 10 threads in the forum.

Or was your purpose to offend those who have bought the IN76 and are just looking to get the most of their projector - and you just want people in the top10 sticky threads to read your rant?

All I can say about their new design is that they should not have had an inset lens with no way to put on a threaded filter and should not have shortened the throw. Then the fan is still loud...

Then they aren't competing with the the HD72 from Optoma... they're probably getting creamed because the Optoma has incentives and the IN76 is still over priced for the market.

Also, I'm seeing a disturbing trend with DLP chip pricing... instead of bringing the better 720p DC3 chip and 7 segment color wheels down to this price range ($3,000 and under with significant street discounting) as the norm in order to make room for the new, true 1920x1080p chip projectors, TI lessens the quality of the chip and makes it 16x10 (with the possibility of light spill) in order to put them in cheaper projectors.

And why aren't 3 chip DC3 720p projectors (with spot on chip convergence) now taking the place in the ~$6,000-7,000 price range? What a great incentive! No more antiquated color wheel and no more rainbows! I think more people would bite.

From a business and technological advancement perspective, it makes no sense! What's the deal with TI??

Dan

Wow lots of questions to guess at.

First, InFocus is obviously not "focused" on the HD72, they are going higher margin, higher price, probably to keep the folks at Best Buy/ Magnolia, and other non-online big box houses happy. The two projectors are certainly direct competitors from a product standpoint.

As to DLP pricing, I don't even think there are any real surprises there.

Consider. First TI's competition is LCD HT projectors, not competition between DLP models.

LCD is in semi-limbo right now. The Panny/Sanyo/Sony projectors are relatively dim compared to DLP competitors (forgetting other issues), but more to the point, so far, it doesn't look like we are going to see a major lcd panel improvement later this year, nor a 1080 product. So what will next generation LCD's look like - (besides having the big edge in zoom lenses and lens shift?) - probably they'll find a way to up the brightness to compete, but that's not much.

As to the dual chip, the 768 overspill is truly minimal, and is probably more annoying psychologically than physically - the black frame of every screen should make it virtually invisible if not invisible. So it gives TI more manufacturing quantities as they start to roll out widescreen biz projectors. (which should be a smokin' market in 6- months to a year as the word gets out that there are projectors made for those millions of widescreen laptops).

TI is pricing the DC3 reasonably well, the problem is the manufacturers of the projectors. Consider that the Optoma HD7100 is under $3500, for a fully featured projector, so the question is why are all the other DC3 projectors commanding about $5K or more.

The market sweetspot is under $2K. I don't have any solid numbers, but I'd be really surprised if the Panasonic 900u alone doesn't sell far more units than all DC3 projectors combined.

So, with the HD72, IN76, etc. theoretically taking back chunks of real estate from the LCD's (based on performance), where's the problem for TI? (I'd say the two primary reasons people buy LCD at the $2000 point (over DLP) are ergonomics (zoom, lens shift), and Brand power (Panasonic, Sanyo, Sony Epson, vs Optoma, BenQ, InFocus (Epson and Infocus are more in the $2500 range weakening their marketshare).

But a $2499 DC3 would be great, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the HD7100 down there with lamps or rebates by year end, certainly it will be under $3000 before then.

As to 3 chip DLP's - two issues. where's the demand going to be - lets say year end between $5000 and $10,000 which would people buy:

A 1080p single chip DLP, or a 3 chip 720p projector.... See the problem, neither is a "top of the line solution", if you go 1080p, then you still figure to replace with a 3 chip 1080p, if you go 3 chip 720, you'll still want a 3 chip 1080....

Therefore many people will not choose and hold on to their current projector, or buy a less expensive compromise unit and "wait another year" Certainly that's much of what you hear on the threads.

So the real solution of course is 3 chip 1080p, and I predict those will be under $10K - by end of next year 2007.

But the bottom line is that over $3000 HT projectors are still a small market segment. I think that projectors are not promoted well, and too hard to "install".

A couple of things that could make a big difference are - first - wireless 1080p solutions. For most people that eliminates the biggest cost of an installation - if all you need is power, and your video (and audio) are handled wirelessly, Best buy and everyone else will do your HT installation for a grand?

Anyway, TI, could drop the prices on the DC3, but it would probably only drop their revenues and profit, not increase their market share.

..... HOWEVER - it may be time for LCOS to shake things up. There are several SXGA+ LCOS projectors hitting right now. I just received the new Canon SX60, yesterday, they asked me to review it primarily as an HT projector. 1400x1050, essentially invisible pixels and improved contrast from their last generation, and thousands of lumens. Should be interesting.

If someone starts shipping an affordable LCOS widescreen that could shake up prices for DLP chips, but again, I think any impact will be later next year.

My question, now that I'm done with my rant - what's the market going to look like for 2500-4000 lumen widescreen projectors for home - for family rooms. I've discussed with several vendors - why not 3500 lumens in Family room mode, and a couple of the usual 350 - 750 lumen theater modes.

I'd kill to have my PE8720 have a 2500-3000 lumen mode for watching sports, etc. It was just great when I had the SIM2 C3X here, and it put out over a thousand real lumens - in its darkest best mode, and kicked serious butt in its brightest.

-awww now, all that conjectoring, I thinkI killed too many brain cells. -art

Forget the TI rants... let's get back on topic.

Ok, here is my 2c on Infocus, without trying to mention names and numbers.

Infocus has no business sense. I know what retailers can charge on those units and make a decent profit. The pana AE900 (LCD) is also competition for these units and you could have two of those (after rebate) for the price of one IN76. So is the HD72. A one year warranty is also risky too, consdering all the moving parts in this PJ. Also, the DLP colorwheel will always have the risk of annoying people who come to your theatre. Especially first timers - I know it would bother me. I'm not saying its a bad product but I don't agree with their pricing strategy. You just can't do that if you have so much competition. You cant price an entry level PC at $999 in this market. Most people see the MSRP and that all retailers are charging it and don't bother to haggle. It is out of budget and simply buy something else with very similar specs.

I was reading their financials and news and Infocus is not doing very well. If I was running that company I would want to get as many units out the door as possible with a reasonable profit. The one year warranty is also low risk for that company and should be reflected in the price. Almost two years into my warranty my epson had a small issue that I could probably live with and they overnighted a new one to me. No waiting for parts or shipping issues. I can see forcing retail pricing on a product with that assurance.

Imagine if the IN76 was MSRPED at say $1600 or even $2k. They would make a smaller profit on it but they probably wouldn't be able to keep up with demand. The specs aren't THAT special compared the Optoma and others.

Also, it is crazy to run after retailers who are trying to make sales on their product and imposing price limits. I understand the logic behind doing it, but not on a product like this. I spoke to reputable retailers who had issues with infocus. THat scheme is wise to do if you have no competion with very high demand. Definately not in this case.

Also, the new 4805s that are EOL should be allowed to have lower prices. The price variation among autorized resellers is very tight.

Infocus should rethink their business strategy, just my 2c.

Where to start - well, first of all InFocus has been having financial problems for many years, profitable quarters generally elude them. However, that's probably more the rule in the projector market than the exception. Most manufacturers cry about their US operations (even if they make money building them overseas).

I don't think InFocus gets it right all the time, and maybe not most of the time, but they have always (watch this) been the marketing innovator in the industry, for better or worse. They were the first to garner a large internet presence, they were the first (and almost the only) company to successfully move volumes through "big box houses" like Best Buy. In fact at one point (true or otherwise) I was lead to believe that on the low end Costco was their biggest mover of the 4805, and possibly moved more well more than half of them (don't quote me - pure rumor).

So, InFocus is trying to do what no one else has figured out how to do - selll volume through the internet channel and the big boxes. (Don't laugh, those big boxes move serious volume). When I owned an online AV company a couple years back (presenting solutions), Epson's number one dealer in the US for projectors - was - get this - Staples, and they only sold the entry level models.

So, for InFocus to market to Best Buy -and most Magnolia HT stores in Best Buy are hanging InFocus projectors (some stores have Sharp apparently, but I haven't seen them), they need Best Buy to make the margins they want, or Best Buy goes elsewhere.

So keep the prices up on the IN76 and the non-internet resellers are happy and buy lots, they lose marketshare online, to wise shoppers, but InFocus is still the recognized brand name, and I suspect most InFocus buyers are not research oriented shoppers (current company excepted). Thus - it's an InFocus, and it must be good, and they pay (if they even know) a premium price (for a projector that certainly physically looks like its worth more money).

As to dropping the price to $1600, etc., sure they could, but does that mean they make $100 or $200 a unit instead of $600 or $700 a unit? If so, they have to triple their volume, not likely a great move, if they are successful in leveraging their name, for the premium price.

Warranty - I agree - 1 year is too short. But then the Panasonic (best seller in class) is also 1 year, hasn't hurt them. Both companies sell extended warranties for "significant" but reasonable prices. (not to mention 3rd party warranties which are more profitable for dealers.

Dealer pricing on the 4805. Whether InFocus is maintaining MAP pricing or not, is probably a marketplace function (who's sitting on a lot of inventory). As to little variation from dealer to dealer, that should be no surprise. Most dealers of entry level projectors (most brands) - online - be they PC, AV, etc., are working on less than 10% margins (front end) plus some get advertising dollars (typically 2%). A few larger dealers may score very large volumes, but then they may have the opportunity to pocket savings from extra buying power. I know two large AV online resellers with different philosophies, but both buy at the largest volume level. One tends to keep their prices right around or fractionally below where most are, and the other passes on the savings. Either way, on a $1000 projector that would have them both within $50 or so of each other. This isn't store retail where there's $300+ profit in a $1000 box.

Price limits - gotta disagree here - most of those retailers WANT pricing controls. Even with MAP - Minimum Advertised Price, (fixed advertising prices), dealers have giveaways, etc. erode margins. This dealer throws in an extra year warranty that one a pull down screen. And everyone pushes "packages" or "bundles" with everything including cables to put some profitability back in, because the online resellers can't stay in biz selling only projectors, the profit is in screens, cables, etc. InFocus probably does the best job of MAP enforcement of any major brand.

As a dealer I was always on the fence with MAP policies. Too many cheaters, so if you adhere to MAP, you lose marketshare - that's how business projectors went from a 90%+ AV channel product to mostly PC. PC dealers buy thru distributors and are essentially impossible to control with a MAP program (visit Nextag for instant proof.

As to Epson - their new line is fixed price (550 and 800), so they are premium priced their dealers (they limit the number), love selling the product - profitable, reliable, and little competition. But then they have only a handful of dealers sell thing those models, vs hundreds pushing everything else.

You mentioned Optoma - Optoma relies primarily on the Online channel, so for them it's more of a pure price/performance play. The online dealers work at the low margins and they don't have any big retail customers to lose.

Still, even Optoma markets - consider the H78DC3 vs the H79 - and now the HD7100 and HD7300. The first of each pair was built for online sales - its still questionable if there were any differences but warranty (and price) between the H78dc3 and the H79. But the H78 was given to online and the H79 was only supposed to be available through local Cedia dealers - even though there was definite leakage into the online channel, the margins were much higher on H79 sales wherever they were, and for Optoma.

With the HD7100/7300, the products are slightly different, and the HD7300 will supposedly never see the light of day on the internet. Again, two products for the same buyer, different in price and strategy because of marketing channels.

So, InFocus will do, what they will do.... Those who want to own an InFocus IN76 for now, will have to pay a premium price. If they want price performance, maybe they should spend the extra for a step up like the HD7100 with darkchip3, its not that much more. (I certainly would), and get a longer warranty at the same time.

OK time for me to get back to work, thanks for listening. -art

Forget the TI rants... let's get back on topic.

Good point - sorry about that! -art

Guys, ( and girls I guess ),

Can anyone help me with the following questions I have ?

I am looking to buy an OPPO OPDV-971H -E DVD player to use with my IN76. Can anyone tell me what the best connection would be ( I guess DVI-D - HDMI ) ?

My surround installation only accepts 5.1 input ( no optical or hdmi ). Will the oppo 5.1 output work simultaneously with the DVI-D - HDMI connection ?

The OPPO upscales, but so does the IN76, what is the difference and does one override the other ?

I currently use a very cheap progressive scan DVD player ( no upscaling ). Result : 576i via component gives me a sharp picture, 576p is terrible. Also I feel I have to crank up the color setting on the IN76 to about 70 to get good color saturation on most material. Will the OPPO give me better color saturation ? Will the OPPO provide a sharp picture in progressive mode ?

Simply put : will the OPPO make a visible difference ? And do I really need one of those very expensive 10 meter HDMI-DVI-D cables or will a cheaper one do fine over that distance ?

I hope someone can help me with all this.

Thanks. Kris.

I guess you are PAL so it is hard to answer - like your 576i/576p experiment try it both ways see which is best. I was not happy with the Oppo being a digital player whose default presets did not generate reference video - and they blew their design money on the digital port and the analog port will be worse than your cheap player. Does the Oppo even output PAL rate?

Guys, ( and girls I guess ),

Can anyone help me with the following questions I have ?

I am looking to buy an OPPO OPDV-971H -E DVD player to use with my IN76. Can anyone tell me what the best connection would be ( I guess DVI-D - HDMI ) ?

My surround installation only accepts 5.1 input ( no optical or hdmi ). Will the oppo 5.1 output work simultaneously with the DVI-D - HDMI connection ?

The OPPO upscales, but so does the IN76, what is the difference and does one override the other ?

I currently use a very cheap progressive scan DVD player ( no upscaling ). Result : 576i via component gives me a sharp picture, 576p is terrible. Also I feel I have to crank up the color setting on the IN76 to about 70 to get good color saturation on most material. Will the OPPO give me better color saturation ? Will the OPPO provide a sharp picture in progressive mode ?

Simply put : will the OPPO make a visible difference ? And do I really need one of those very expensive 10 meter HDMI-DVI-D cables or will a cheaper one do fine over that distance ?

I hope someone can help me with all this.

Thanks. Kris.

Not sure on the 5.1 out but I do keep both the optical and front stereo hooked up to my Oppo (into my receiver), and both are live at the same time, so I suspect you are fine there.

As to the improvement - as you said, you have a cheap DVD. I was using a fairly respectable Sanyo DVD, and had replaced with a Bravo D2, and saw improvement. but the Bravo was flakey so I put an Oppo in both of my rooms. I have no doubt that the digital out of the Oppo is quite visibly better than any lesser DVD player using component out. So my guess is - yes you will see an improvement.

I would recommend having the oppo output 720p for the IN76 worked just great when I reviewed the IN76. I believe generally that the Oppo's upscaling (which I believe is Faroudja -but not sure), is comparable or better than what is found in most projectors. To the point that I do all my projector reviews just outputting 720p from the Oppo. hope that helps. -art

Kris,

The Oppo should come with both a DVI cable and a DVI to HDMI cable. You can use either hdmi input on your IN76 or get an m1 to dvi cable for your m1 port.

The Oppo's 5.1 output will work simultaneously with its dvi output.

Difference between the Oppo and projector scaling is Oppo uses Faroudja, while the IN76 uses Pixelworks DNX for scaling. If you have the Oppo output to 720p then it overrides the projector's scaling. However, if you set the Oppo to 480p/576p or 1080i then the IN76 will do some additional scaling to bring it to 720p. If you get the Oppo, set it to 720p.

At 576i on your current dvd player, the projector is deinterlacing it and scaling it to 720p. At 576p, your dvd player is deinterlacing the dvd to 576p, and the projector is scaling it to 720p. The difference here is the deinterlacer, and it seems the projector's deinterlacer is better then your dvd player in this case. There's nothing wrong with adjusting color saturation, it's all part of calibrating. If you're not happy with the Oppo's color saturation, you can adjust it on the player, but most people keep it at the default.

I don't have the IN76 (yet...maybe?), but there are many happy 720p owners who love the sharpness of the Oppo.

The Oppo will do 576p, 720p50, and 1080i50.

Kris, Oppo has a nice 30 day return policy so you can try for yourself in your environment on your equipment. It is not the sharpest image around but it does have a low noise floor and a pretty clean image. As Kras and others have mentioned the analog output pretty much blows, the Oppo was meant to be ouput with 720p into a digital input, whether dvi or hdmi.

P.S. Kras, the Oppo does output proper video levels at default settings with the newest firmware. I'm guessing your bad experience was not a very recent one?

Moe

Thanks a lot for your help guys. Couple more questions ... when ceiling-mounting my in76, what is better : 1. As far away from the screen as possible, without zoom or minimal zoom. 2. As close as possible to the screen with maximum or a lot of zoom ?

I understand DVI-HDMI or DVI-DVI connection makes no difference, but I need to come back on my earlier question, namely : I need cables over 10 meter long, can I use normal priced cables or do I really need the 300 dollar 12 meter cable ?

Thanks again. Kris.

As far away from screen as possible, then go forward a couple of inches to play it safe. HDMI -HDMI has the potential to be better than DVI, depends on the source, but in practical terms today, your right, no real difference. It's likely that ten meter lengths may have issues. perhaps KRAS and the other experts can give more detail.

Oh, and I forgot ... I am confused about the different cables. The infocus manual says I need a M1 to DVI cable. So I figure the M1-DA/DVI connection on the pj is not the same as the DVI-D output on the OPPO player.

I am confused as to what cable I need to make the best connection between OPPO and IN76.

DVI/DVI ... DVI-D/DVI-D ... DVI/HDMI ... M1/DVI ... M1/HDMI ?????

Am I right in thinking that HDMI, M1, DVI, DVI-D are all different ?

Kris.

HDMI -HDMI has the potential to be better than DVI, depends on the source,
Not in the context if his question is doesn't. If you originate from DVI, it doesn't matter if it goes to DVI or HDMI. Now HDMI supports different colorspaces and 12 bit video, but only if it's HDMI-HDMI.

Oh, and I forgot ... I am confused about the different cables. The infocus manual says I need a M1 to DVI cable. So I figure the M1-DA/DVI connection on the pj is not the same as the DVI-D output on the OPPO player.

I am confused as to what cable I need to make the best connection between OPPO and IN76.

DVI/DVI ... DVI-D/DVI-D ... DVI/HDMI ... M1/DVI ... M1/HDMI ?????

Am I right in thinking that HDMI, M1, DVI, DVI-D are all different ?

Kris.

If you want to connect the Oppo using DVI, then you will need to get the m1 to DVI adapter. You can use either DVI or HDMI and both will give you the same picture quality from the Oppo.

The Oppo has a DVI output. Your options to connect it to the IN76 are:
1. DVI out from Oppo to HDMI input of IN76 using a DVI to HDMI cable.
2. DVI out from the Oppo to m1 input of IN76 using DVI to M1 cable (or DVI cable with DVI to M1 adapter).

The Oppo's DVI output port is a DVI-I port (which supports digital and analog), but the Oppo only sends out a DVI-D (digital) signal. You will be fine with a DVI-D cable.

Many people are doing fine with long cheap cables from monoprice.com. The Oppo is known to have a weak dvi output, so you may want to check the Oppo thread in the dvd player forum to see if it will be a problem or not with your length.

I understand DVI-HDMI or DVI-DVI connection makes no difference, but I need to come back on my earlier question, namely : I need cables over 10 meter long, can I use normal priced cables or do I really need the 300 dollar 12 meter cable ?
Hi Kris - you don't need to spend $300 on a cable. I use an Oppo with my IN76 and I'm using a 30' Bluejeanscable DVI-HDMI cable that cost $60. Since most cables are returnable I'd start with the cheaper ones and see if they work for you. As Ja Phule mentioned (beating me to the punch again, as usual!) Monoprice is a good source for cheap cables.

Adapters are also cheap, so you may want to buy an HDMI-HDMI cable and use a DVI adapter at the Oppo end. I wish I had done that rather than getting a DVI-HDMI cable (the Oppo is probably the last DVD player I will own that has a DVI out - HDMI is taking over).

As for my take on the player itself, I have mixed feelings. On the plus side I love the sharpness of the image I'm getting. The Oppo's upscaling to 720p is very good and clearly provides a sharper image than what I get when sending 480i via my old player (Pioneer Elite DV-45a).

On the down side, I'm less than thrilled with the color performance I'm getting. There is a slight, but noticeable green tint to the image. I can't say for sure that this is the fault of the Oppo rather than the IN76, but I don't really have that complaint when watching my old DVD player or HDTV sources (both of which use a different input however - component). I've tried to correct for the green tint by adjusting the green gains and offsets, and although that's helped, I'm still getting the feeling my colors are slightly off. YMMV.

Thanks.

Ja Phule, I need at least a 12 meter ( 40 feet ) connection. I found this cable on monoprice :

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10238&cs_id=1023801&p_id=2503&seq=1&format=2&style=

I see that DVI-D comes in 2 variations : single and dual link ... what do I need ? Will this cable on Monoprice do the job ? What cable on Monoprice would you recommend I use to cover the distance ?

Kris,
40 feet is pretty long, and it's usually recommended to not go over 30 feet. I know people have had success with 50 feet installs. Truth is, you really don't know if it'll work or not unless you try it yourself. Should it not work, it could either be a defective cable or weak signal. In case of a weak signal, you will need a repeater. If you think you might have more than one hdmi/dvi source besides the Oppo, it seems some hdmi switchboxes also act as a repeater and that could be an option also. A single link cable should be fine. I'm using a 15ft DVI-D single link and it works fine.

Edit: Here you go, success from an Infocus 4805 user with monoprice 50ft DVI to M1 cable.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7316215&&#post7316215

I'm running 40 ft monoprice thru a 2x monoprice switcher and it's fine. Moto cable box and Oppo. I guess it's hit and miss though whether it will work or not. I took the jump realizing that I may have to get a repeater if it didn't work.

As far away from screen as possible, then go forward a couple of inches to play it safe. HDMI -HDMI has the potential to be better than DVI, depends on the source, but in practical terms today, your right, no real difference. It's likely that ten meter lengths may have issues. perhaps KRAS and the other experts can give more detail.


Martin,

What is the benefit of being as far as possible from the display? I though it would be safer to put the projector in the middle of the Zoom range to avoid optic artifacts. I am curious because my IN76 is replacing a 4805 and at my current ceiling mount position, I am at the end of the zoom range on the IN76. I was planning to bring the ceiling mount 1 foot closer to screen to be in the middle of the zoom range.

Thanks.

Ja Phule, I need at least a 12 meter ( 40 feet ) connection. I found this cable on monoprice :

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10238&cs_id=1023801&p_id=2503&seq=1&format=2&style=

I see that DVI-D comes in 2 variations : single and dual link ... what do I need ? Will this cable on Monoprice do the job ? What cable on Monoprice would you recommend I use to cover the distance ?

It is risky to use a 40 feet cable for DVI. Is this cable guaranty by the manufacturer to work at 1080P on that length?

It is risky to use a 40 feet cable for DVI. Is this cable guaranty by the manufacturer to work at 1080P on that length?


In fact I recommend you to spend a bit more and use an HDMI cable at lest you will be future proof next time you perform a DVD upgrade or if you go with an HD-DVD they all support HDMI.

I did that when I installed my 4805, two years ago and now I could benefice from the HDMI connection without having to re-open the ceiling to pass another cable.

I wrote a letter with some questions to the OPPODIGITAL service-center and I got an answer.

Here is the letter and their reply :

Dear OPPO DIGITAL,

I am thinking of buying an OPDV971H to connect to my INFOCUS IN76 projector ( M1-DA/DVI input ).
I live in PAL-country ( Belgium ). Will the player upconvert PAL-DVD (576) to 720p/1080i ?

The IN76 has the PIXELWORKS DNX scaler onboard. Will the FAROUDJA on the OPPO make a difference ?

Exactly what cable do I need to make the best possible connection between the OPPO player and the IN76 ? The infocus manual says M1 to DVI, but it doesn(t say if it has to be a dual or single link cable. Also the IN76 has a HDMI input that might be useful, wouldn't it ?

I need to cover a connection distance of over 40 feet !! Do I need any special cable requirements for that distance or is the oppo signal strong enough to handle an affordable 40+ feet cable ? I don't like spending 250 dollars on a cable.

For the moment I use a very cheap progressive scan DVD player. Result : when feeding 576i to the pj I get a sharp picture ... when feeding 576p to the pj the image is way too soft. Will 720p from the oppo result in a sharp picture on my IN76 ?

I need to use the 5.1 out from the OPPO to feed my surround system ( only has 5.1 input ). Will the 6-channel output on the OPPO stay live at all times ( even when connecting to hdmi at the same time ) ?

As a result of the IN76 being a newcomer I cannot find a lot of info on the internet-forums about the marriage between an OPDV971H and an IN76. I will of course give feedback to my buddies on the different forums once I tried the combination, so it is important that I find out how to get the best results.

Thank you, Soete Kris.

REPLY :

Soete,

Yes, the OPDV971H will upconvert a PAL signal to 720p/1080i.

Depending on the quality of the PixelWorks DNX implimentation on the
IN76, there will either be little to no improvement, or a major
improvement over your current DVD player.

The OPDV971H utilizes a DVI-D Single Link connection. You will either
use a DVI-M1 or a DVI-HDMI cable.

We have tested the DVD player up to 50 feet without a problem. However,
some users have not been able to extend their feeds beyond 25 feet
without some means of amplification.

720p will likely be softer than an interlaced signal, as the progressive
image has combined both fields into a single frame. This can cause a
softening.

All connection on the OPDV971H are live at the same time.

Best Regards,

Customer Service
OPPO Digital, Inc.
453 Ravendale Dr, Suite D
Mountain View, CA 94043

NOW :

As sharpness of image is one of my main concerns, I doubt the OPPO player will please me. I guess if I get a softer image with 720p than I get now with 576i ( sharp, but not even as sharp as I would like ), I will not like the OPPO.

I'm sure this will be of no help, but the 25 foot M1 to DVI cable from Monoprice works fantastically with my HTPC.

The Oppo can also suffer from macroblock enhance. I use my Panasonic S97 with the same deinterlacer/scaler, but I only use it at 480p because I feel it is a superior deinterlacer, but using it to scale to 720p causes macrablock enhance. On the other hand, the picture at 720p was about as sharp as I could imagine from an SD DVD.

As sharpness of image is one of my main concerns, I doubt the OPPO player will please me. I guess if I get a softer image with 720p than I get now with 576i ( sharp, but not even as sharp as I would like ), I will not like the OPPO.
I wouldn't put too much weight in this statement from Oppo:
720p will likely be softer than an interlaced signal, as the progressive
image has combined both fields into a single frame. This can cause a
softening.
Frankly it doesn't make any sense to me in the context of a projector. Since a DLP projector is a digital display, interlaced signals MUST be deinterlaced - only progressive signals can be displayed. There's no way to avoid it. Either the DVD player is doing it or the projector. A statement like that would only be valid if you're talking about an analogue display IMO.

Rest assured, the Oppo is plenty sharp upconverting to 720p. At least with 480i. I would ask about it's performance with 576i (PAL) on the Oppo thread in the DVD forum. You stand a better chance of finding an answer there than in this thread.

It means your player was taking the easy way out and converting the 288 line field with half the picture doubling the interlaced lines - loosing half the vertical resolution which then that doubled scan line was scaled up to five scan lines to make the full 720P frame by the projector.

Always a good idea to check to see if the player or display is better at deinterlacing/scaling by changing your player to interlaced.

It is easy to see the difference between focus and sharpness. Display a white field and look at the lines between the pixels (the SDE) to see focus, for sharpness display gridlines like the AVIA/DVE sharpness patterns and look for clean sharp lines that are not spilling across pixels.

I wanted to get back to you on this because I'm still having my doubts about sharpness with the OPPO OPDV971H. How can I check if the scaler on that player is better than the one on the IN76 ? I want to be sure before buying the OPPO that the sharpness with 720p will be the same or better than the sharpness I currently ge with 576i from a cheap DVD player.

Kris

You check it out by buying from a place with a return policy and trying it both ways!

On the down side, I'm less than thrilled with the color performance I'm getting. There is a slight, but noticeable green tint to the image. I can't say for sure that this is the fault of the Oppo rather than the IN76, but I don't really have that complaint when watching my old DVD player or HDTV sources (both of which use a different input however - component). I've tried to correct for the green tint by adjusting the green gains and offsets, and although that's helped, I'm still getting the feeling my colors are slightly off. YMMV.

Maybe colorspace issues - have you tried manually switching it on the projector to REC601? It will default to REC709 when it sees a HD signal.....There is a major green level difference between the two colorspaces. Only adjust the color gains/offsets if you see the green tint in the B&W patterns.

Also take note what Zipplemeyer said about firmware updates - maybe the Oppo video decoding has been corrected now.

Although I can't compare it to the player you have now, my old Pionner 563a looked soft compared to my Oppo. To me the Oppo is pretty razor sharp, but I guess its all relative to one's expectations.

Can I ask y'all in here why you chose the in76 over the hd72 by optoma? People keep telling me that they're equivalent but I think the scaling of 1080i and the faster color wheel (I am VERY rainbow sensitive) would be huge differences.

Thanks! d

Kras, here in Belgium I would have a hard time finding an oppo player, let alone one that I can return. I need to order one in Holland.

I think I'll just go for it. Thanks all for your help.

Kras, here in Belgium I would have a hard time finding an oppo player, let alone one that I can return. I need to order one in Holland.

I think I'll just go for it. Thanks all for your help.

I believe in Europe, the BBK player and Oppo are clones of each other, you may have better luck finding the BBK player.

Can I ask y'all in here why you chose the in76 over the hd72 by optoma? People keep telling me that they're equivalent but I think the scaling of 1080i and the faster color wheel (I am VERY rainbow sensitive) would be huge differences.

Thanks! d
As noted in the other thread, both projectors have 4X color wheels.

As for my take on the player itself, I have mixed feelings. On the plus side I love the sharpness of the image I'm getting. The Oppo's upscaling to 720p is very good and clearly provides a sharper image than what I get when sending 480i via my old player (Pioneer Elite DV-45a).

Would you think that 576i to 720p would make as much a difference in sharpness as 480i to 720p makes. Or am I wrong in thinking that here in PAL-land we have the advantage having 576i instead of 480i ?

Can I ask y'all in here why you chose the in76 over the hd72 by optoma? People keep telling me that they're equivalent but I think the scaling of 1080i and the faster color wheel (I am VERY rainbow sensitive) would be huge differences.

Thanks! d

I saw both before picking the IN76. There are significant differences between the two. Out of the box the IN76 color accuracy is amazing almost dead on. The IN76 is a plug & play type of projector, you don't really need to perform a detailed calibration (just basic contrast and brightness adjustments). The HD72 absolutely need to be calibrated by a professional to match the image quality of the IN76. When calibrated the HD72 is quite dim compared to the IN76. This mean the IN76 could fill a bigger screen. Finally the IN76 look is gorgeous compared to the HD72.

When you take the cost of the calibration into account, the difference in price is not that much for the extra you get.

The only area where the HD72 perform better is on the sound level. It is less noisy.

Benoit

Maybe colorspace issues - have you tried manually switching it on the projector to REC601? It will default to REC709 when it sees a HD signal.....There is a major green level difference between the two colorspaces. Only adjust the color gains/offsets if you see the green tint in the B&W patterns.

Also take note what Zipplemeyer said about firmware updates - maybe the Oppo video decoding has been corrected now.
Hi Kras,

Color space is set to auto, but is clearly at Video RGB - selecting manual and switching to something else shows obvious color issues. Keep in mind the green push is very subtle - nowhere near the green push I see in some OTB Optoma screenshots. It shows up mostly in skintones.

I looked a little more critically at the issue the other night, and checked how HDTV compared to DVD a little closer. The slight green push appears to be on HDTV as well (via component). It looks like I may just be one of the unlucky ones whose IN76 is not as well calibrated as some others. A few minor adjustments on the color control has improved the image, but these adjustments have been done by eye. At some point I may consider an ISF calibration (do you have any vacation plans to come to the northeast this summer :D).

As for firmware updates for the Oppo, I have the most recent officially released one, but there is a Beta version of a newer one out there. I have not read anything about firmware updates correcting any color level issues however. I do not religiously follow the Oppo thread however, so perhaps I'm missing something. Zipplemeyer - can you provide any more details on this? Thx

Would you think that 576i to 720p would make as much a difference in sharpness as 480i to 720p makes. Or am I wrong in thinking that here in PAL-land we have the advantage having 576i instead of 480i ?
I think it depends on the difference in the quality of scaling between 480i to 720p and 576i to 720p. In theory 576i should result in a sharper image, since the source material has more resolution than 480i, but if 576i isn't scaled as well as 480i than the end result could actually be softer.

I still think your best bet is to ask these questions (and search) in the Oppo thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=4924650&&#post4924650). :)

Jeff, My reference to the newest firmware wasn't to fix any color issues that you may be having. In previous firmwares the brightness had to be increased on the player to insure proper video black levels. In the newest firmware video levels are achieved with the brightness and contrast at their default 0 positions. Good Luck.

Moe

JeffKB

So it is the Oppo that did the videodecoding if you get RGB - still could be REC709 vs. REC601 issues on the player? Did you try the HDTV from the Oppo - or did you do another source? And do you think the greyscale is green - or just some colors?

I wonder if you are comparing to the SP4805 - if the lamp is old you have probably faded toward Cyan.

I do mail-in calibrations as I hate to travel - but even so I don't think it is worth it unless you indeed got a rogue - maybe I should have a special "Infocus" price :D

Someone else had a local ISF do it and sent me his report - and it went from 5% reddish whites to 5% blueish blacks - the controls and sensors are just not that able to finely tune. He also was more concerned about the signal chain video decoding issues. 5% is often the goal of a calibrator to consider it a good enough result - so when you start there not much improvement to be had!

How warm is the air blowing from the side of your IN76? Mine is very warm (which is expected) but the top of the unit is very hot to the touch. Is this normal?

How warm is the air blowing from the side of your IN76? Mine is very warm (which is expected) but the top of the unit is very hot to the touch. Is this normal?

I s your projector ceiling mounted?

Benoit

The first day I had my IN76 I had a candle on the table about 6" of the IN76's air outtake and within an hour I noticed it had partially melted. I learned my lesson and now the IN76 has at least 18" of clearance on that side.

Yes, it is upside down. There is no obstruction on either side of the projector for about 5 feet so I think that is good. :) I just place my hand on the top of the unit (actually the bottom) and it was very hot. I just wanted to make sure this is normal. I wish I could remove the side piece on the exhaust side to let more air flow through the projector. Everyone else's projector case hot to the touch?

The first day I had my IN76 I had a candle on the table about 6" of the IN76's air outtake and within an hour I noticed it had partially melted. I learned my lesson and now the IN76 has at least 18" of clearance on that side.

Well, I guess that would infer that the top of your projector must have been pretty hot also. I just wanted to make sure it was ok.

Hi,

Would anybody please do this for me :

Hook up a dvd-player (preferably a cheap progressive one ) to the IN76 through s-video and then please tell me what image you are getting, especially concerning sharpness.

Thanks, Kris.

JeffKB

So it is the Oppo that did the videodecoding if you get RGB - still could be REC709 vs. REC601 issues on the player? Did you try the HDTV from the Oppo - or did you do another source? And do you think the greyscale is green - or just some colors?

I wonder if you are comparing to the SP4805 - if the lamp is old you have probably faded toward Cyan.

Hi Kras,

I must not be as big an A/V geek as I'd like to think, because I had to do some research to see what in blazes REC709 versus REC601 means! :D

Don't REC709 vs REC601 matrix mismatches apply to component connections only? I'm using a DVI-HDMI connection from the Oppo to the IN76. HDTV is via component however, so the next time I use the PJ I'll try playing with the projector REC601/709 settings just for yuks.

I do need to look at a greyscale pattern a little more closely, and perhaps some color bars as well. It's so tough to tell strictly by eye however with no reference. And it could very well be the fact that my aged 4805 lamp has biased my eye. I plan on hooking up my 4805 one last time before I dump it and I'll compare the greyscales on both PJs directly.

Again, this is a subtle problem (if one even exists!), but it's in my head now and I find myself looking for color issues rather than simply enjoying a movie. Videophile angst! Gotta love it.

JeffKB

Nope - REC609 vs. REC701 applies to the projector when you send it component YPbPr - that is the standard video decoder (SD vs. HD) that it applies. When you send out RGB over digital (component and RGB are not the same thing even though the cable colors are the same) - that means the Oppo did the video decoding - and maybe it has the color space wrong. No make it even more complicated with HDMI - then you have digital component YCbCr - and now the projector is decoding the video again - and you have to make sure it made the right decoder choice.

White color temperature will bias your eyes like you will not believe - I just did one where the WTW could be seen despite video DVI settings which should have clipped it (because of notching down a bit for calibration added some gain headroom). Even my experienced eyes the near whites were blue - but the reality verified by the meter was the brighter than white was yellow! The 16-235 video range was tracking perfectly!

So if you do see a difference between aged SP4805 and the IN76 - stare at a white field on one for some time and quickly look at the other. You will convince yourself the last one you looked at is wrong - even when you switch the order of the test! If you have not tackled the SP4805 colorwheel - it does make a big difference on color temp and brightness....

First part of a new review performed by the Cine4home ppl, here...

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/InfocusIN76/IN76Test.htm

:p

The IN76 color wheel....looks like they've done away with the RGBRGB design
http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/InfocusIN76/Bild14.jpg

The IN76 color wheel....looks like they've done away with the RGBRGB design
http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/InfocusIN76/Bild14.jpg


No, it is a normal RGBRGB wheel, just from a different angle.. what you see are the reflecting parts of the spectrum (for. ex. cyan = red segment).

It is explained in the (german) text below that picture ;)

All you have to do is to use the negative-function of a paint-program, and you see the "real" colors of the wheel...

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/InfocusIN76/Bild14b.jpg

Voila !!!

;)


Regards,
Ekkehart, www.cine4home.de

LOL...I was thinking that was a pretty funky wheel.

Hey Ekkehart,

How does the In76 compare to the Mits HC3000 in terms of black detail, colour rendition, dithering, colour vibrancy etc.?

Thanks
Peter

Thanks for the correction.... It also looks somewhat like a dirty color wheel before cleaning it. :)

This is Part 1 of the review which comments on the looks, build quality, fan noise, remote control and menu structure. You have to wait until Thursday for Part 2 which will give the details on picture performance.

hey this will probably get buried quickly, but

how come my pc loses it's connection to the IN76 everytime i reboot the PC?

it's a total drag. i have to uninstall and reinstall the video drivers everytime i reboot the pc. is there some software i can use to fake the edid or do i have to buy the geffen dvi detective? i'm still scratching my head on this. my run is only 25-30' and i don't have any problems with signal or sparklies or anything. i'm using a good high quality cable and my pc had an nvidia geforce 6800gto.

anybody have any suggestions?

I just place my hand on the top of the unit (actually the bottom) and it was very hot. I just wanted to make sure this is normal.

The case on my 72 is hot to the touch as well. I assumed it was normal to be that way.

where is bob w ?

The 72 does get pretty hot around the bulb area and it blows very warm to hot air. The plastic trap door has a metal shield in the area around the bulb - I would assume that its there to dissipate heat from the plastic.

The case on my 72 is hot to the touch as well. I assumed it was normal to be that way.

Yes, it is upside down. There is no obstruction on either side of the projector for about 5 feet so I think that is good. :) I just place my hand on the top of the unit (actually the bottom) and it was very hot. I just wanted to make sure this is normal. I wish I could remove the side piece on the exhaust side to let more air flow through the projector. Everyone else's projector case hot to the touch?

I did a test yesterday with my IN76. I run it for 6hrs and check the casing temperature. The casing is more than warm. Mainly on the front corner opposite to the lens. My projector is ceiling mounted on a 9 and half foots ceiling on bracket with a 12inches post. This gives the projector some space for air flow around the top (in fact the bottom) of the projector. Therefore if your projector is mounted flush with the ceiling, it would be normal to be warmer than mine.

I did a test yesterday with my IN76. I run it for 6hrs and check the casing temperature. The casing is more than warm. Mainly on the front corner opposite to the lens. My projector is ceiling mounted on a 9 and half foots ceiling on bracket with a 12inches post. This gives the projector some space for air flow around the top (in fact the bottom) of the projector. Therefore if your projector is mounted flush with the ceiling, it would be normal to be warmer than mine.

Thanks for checking it out. I also noticed that the case was hot on the side opposite from the bulb (which confused me).

Does your projector fan run in low or high mode? I'm not sure which mine is running since it is not selectable to my knowledge.

Ambient temp. in room is 67.9 deg. F
Ceiling temp. with IN76 OFF is 71.1 deg. F
Ceiling temp. with IN76 ON is 73.6 deg. F after 30 minutes

k


It looks like a 5.7 degree F rise is possible when the PJ is flush mounted to the ceiling in my application.

k

The case on my 72 is hot to the touch as well. I assumed it was normal to be that way.

Are you running the 72 in AI or bright mode? Is it ceiling mounted? Just curious as mine doesn't seem to get overly warm but it does draw cool air at about 5" off the floor.

just ordered my second IN product. baby sister to my IN76, an IN72. hopefully will be here tomorrow.

just wanted to note that with my unit ceiling mounted the fan kicks onto high and it is loud. I even turned on the air condition for an hour to get the room very cool, even on the ceiling it was cool and the fan remained on high. Very annoying.

I have question here. I am running the IN76 in ceiling mode on a Firehawk screen with a 1.25 gain. It looks beautiful to me. Before it was delivered, a number of posts were stating that I would be blown away by the brightness and it was not a good match for a light controlled room. My room has total light control with a white-ish ceiling and had to notch down the brightness 3 ticks using Avia...but that is not much at all. I don't find the image too bright at all. In fact, I almost find it a little dark...but I do like it very much. My bulb only has 40 hours on it, so it can't be dim. Just curious as to why I'd be getting that discrepancy.

just wanted to note that with my unit ceiling mounted the fan kicks onto high and it is loud. I even turned on the air condition for an hour to get the room very cool, even on the ceiling it was cool and the fan remained on high. Very annoying.

Are you sure that it is running in high? My room gets hottish, and my fan gets louder as the room gets hotter. However, when I then switch to HIGH power, the fan kicks it up to a much louder level. When I switch back down, the fan definitely quiets down.

I have question here. I am running the IN76 in ceiling mode on a Firehawk screen with a 1.25 gain. It looks beautiful to me. Before it was delivered, a number of posts were stating that I would be blown away by the brightness and it was not a good match for a light controlled room. My room has total light control with a white-ish ceiling and had to notch down the brightness 3 ticks using Avia...but that is not much at all. I don't find the image too bright at all. In fact, I almost find it a little dark...but I do like it very much. My bulb only has 40 hours on it, so it can't be dim. Just curious as to why I'd be getting that discrepancy.

How large is this 1.25 gain FireHawk? I have a 57x102 (117") white screen with gain in the 1.4 range. I don't think it is too bright for me either. You must like the bright TV type picture over the dim "film like" picture.

TV 25-35 ftL is good for me
Film 10-14 ftL is good for most others

k

hey are the screws on these M4's?

How large is this 1.25 gain FireHawk? I have a 57x102 (117") white screen with gain in the 1.4 range. I don't think it is too bright for me either. You must like the bright TV type picture over the dim "film like" picture.

TV 25-35 ftL is good for me
Film 10-14 ftL is good for most others

k

The screen is 96". Not too bright in a million years. I would actually like it a TAD punchier...but I am happy where it is. I just have to do something about that fan noise which is still too loud for me (talked about a hush box, but I think I might just do a sheet of wood beneath it with lined fiberglass to help muffle...when holding it in place it really quiets it down without any problems of overheating as the unit is open on all sides).

So help me understand this guys. Cine4home measured a on/off contrast ratio of 1500:1 for the IN76 @ 6500K:

(I'm assuming schwarzwert roughly translates to black level)

With a contrast of 1500:1 it offers a responding picture depth, but the absolute schwarzwert is not so dark, as one is used to it from many home cinema projectors meanwhile. Dark film scenes receive a light grey veil, which visibly impairs the picture depth. The IN76 is suitable therefore rather for all those, which set a high light achievement before dark schwarzwert.


The measured CR for the HC3000 is 2300:1 after calibration. I assume it was at or near 6500K:

Our test copy reached a maximum contrast of 3400:1, a always still very considerable value. In film practice (with consideration of the correct color representation) can this contrast-hold back-eat however not to be held. After detailed calibration a contrast remains of approx.. 2300:1 remaining.


The better the cinema area was optimized (dark walls etc.), the better can the HC3000 these advantages out-play. In good home cinema areas the new Mitsubishi with its on/off contrast of 2300:1 always still achieves a clearly more plastic picture, than current LCD projectors with their measured values of 4000:1 and more.

Now before the bashing commences, I own a SP4805 so I'm no stranger to Infocus products. But I'm not understanding why this PJ is getting more attention than the Mitsu. Is it that the color is pretty much dead nuts right out of the box? Can the HC3000 not be tweaked as well? For me, black level is king, what part of the *picture* am I missing?

So help me understand this guys. Cine4home measured a on/off contrast ratio of 1500:1 for the IN76 @ 6500K:

(I'm assuming schwarzwert roughly translates to black level)

With a contrast of 1500:1 it offers a responding picture depth, but the absolute schwarzwert is not so dark, as one is used to it from many home cinema projectors meanwhile. Dark film scenes receive a light grey veil, which visibly impairs the picture depth. The IN76 is suitable therefore rather for all those, which set a high light achievement before dark schwarzwert.


The measured CR for the HC3000 is 2300:1 after calibration. I assume it was at or near 6500K:

Our test copy reached a maximum contrast of 3400:1, a always still very considerable value. In film practice (with consideration of the correct color representation) can this contrast-hold back-eat however not to be held. After detailed calibration a contrast remains of approx.. 2300:1 remaining.


The better the cinema area was optimized (dark walls etc.), the better can the HC3000 these advantages out-play. In good home cinema areas the new Mitsubishi with its on/off contrast of 2300:1 always still achieves a clearly more plastic picture, than current LCD projectors with their measured values of 4000:1 and more.

Now before the bashing commences, I own and enjoy a SP4805, so I'm no stranger to Infocus products. But I'm not understanding why this PJ is getting more attention than the Mitsu when the Mitsu seems to be streeting for the same or less.

For me, black level is king, so what part of the *picture* am I missing? Is it that the IN76's color is pretty much dead nuts right out of the box? Can the HC3000 not be tweaked as well? Is the HC3000 lumen poor? What gives afficionados? :)

Out of the box the Mitsu is way way off - sure it can be tweaked even arguably better by a sensored calibrator for $$$. However there is a tremendous lumen loss in doing so - so screen size/gain is going to make for your preferred projector. cine4home.de's Mitsu contrast number is much higher than mine - more like what I got measuring their way off 5900K preset (6500K preset not even close to D65 and forget 5900K either) - but you can also get a higher calibrated number by turning on BrilliantColor (with a small gamma and color purity hit) or letting 100% white drift Cyan. I got about 10% less max contrast (which is a reasonable variance) than they did on the Mitsu - but with a burned-in lamp it had lost even more red which required more correction - plus customer had a FireHawk known to push blue - and that required further correction - so with a new lamp you certainly could get a better number. I did measure one with a new lamp - but could not get a better number because the customers room was not capable of a better number.

I would not worry too much about the IN76 being 5% too red - of any calibration error - this one is preferable - because by the time of burn-in (hundreds hours) Red will be burned away. I would not even bother correcting for it unless your ISFers makes a service guarantee to come back soon.

Calibrated with the closest to standards as possible - the Mitsu contrast is not much different than the Infocus - the main difference is in lumens (and your colors will be deeper on the Mitsu) But if you are focused on the numbers you would think it is horrible - but it is still a small improvement over the SP4805. Keep in mind that individual projectors can have variances - typically 20% on lumens, 10% on contrast - and that is if you are using the same zoom setting - which causes a tradeoff itself off lumens vs. contrast. And that is new lamps - throw in some old lamps - and lumens has taken a dive - and the contrast loss for greyscale correction gets even worse.

Also the Mitsu is old news in AVS terms - having been out a while - it is not going to get the AVS buzz anymore. Welcome to the projector of the month AVS buzz. Next month something else new will be out and the IN76ers will be lamenting they get no love.

Of course with low lumens and similar contrast - you get better black levels. You get the same black levels on Infocus with a ND2 filter (or even a ND3 filter actually) - or a 3x larger screen. I see this all the time - people claim the blacks look grey - sure if you compare it to a projector that is 3x dimmer and has the similar contrast. You could also say the dimmer projector that the whites look grey - but for some reason I never see anyone say it that way. Either claim is just as wrong. You can only evaluate contrast once white levels have been equalized in direct comparisons - I have done that test - and you would be amazed the comments then - not much difference aside from smaller vs. bigger.

But the bottom line is if black level is king for you - then you can accomplish a dim setup on any projector. If your really meant to say contrast is king - then choosing the brightest HT projector out there - means you can always find something with better contrast and deeper colors. If you really meant to say the 10' screen is king - then you are in the right thread. If you really meant to say I want a movie screen sized plasma - you are in the right thread. If you really meant to say I don't know any ISF guys - you are in the right thread.

I got my IN76 and Carada 102" installed.... looks really good but having problem getting 16x9 resolution.

It leaves black border on both sides of screen.....

Can someone post a link that translates the entire review? I can only get about half of the new review translated!

Also the Mitsu is old news in AVS terms - having been out a while - it is not going to get the AVS buzz anymore. Welcome to the projector of the month AVS buzz. Next month something else new will be out and the IN76ers will be lamenting they get no love.

Kras, It seems to me that the IN76 doesn't get all that much love now. Most reviews have been politely favorable and there have been many on this board who like the pq but rarely do I hear an all out rave. I was hoping to ditch my Panny AE900 and move back to the DLP fold but I don't think this projector is the one to help me do that. I'm suprised that after all the pent up anticipation for an affordable 720p Infocus unit the best that can be done is a contrast ratio that doesn't even measure up to the 4805. I have a very short basement ceiling and cannot accomodate a pj with a steep offset so I guess I'll keep waiting.

Moe

Yesterday I measured the performance of my IN76 with default setting. This what I measured:

1) On/Off Contrast Ratio 2634:1
2) 18.451 Fl
3) Gamma Curves of 2.33 really closed to the 2.22 target. With a DeltaE of below 2 with the exception of 10% stimulation and below were my sensor is not sensitive enough to get good measured.

The first time I see something that close from target out of the box.

I am a bit surprise bit the 18.451 Fl. My screen is 80inches wide and it is a Dalite HCCV with a gain of about 0.9-1. Therefore, this reading gives me a total light output of 500 lumen?!? This is quite low. Did someone else experience that kind of reading? IS it my light meter that is out of calibration?

Benoit

I would not worry too much about the IN76 being 5% too red - of any calibration error - this one is preferable - because by the time of burn-in (hundreds hours) Red will be burned away. I would not even bother correcting for it unless your ISFers makes a service guarantee to come back soon.


I agree, I looked at some moviescenes with the factory set up, and the minor red push was no problem or hardly visible at all. No real need for correction. And maybe others IN76 dont even have it (there is always small deviation in factory calibrations).



the main difference is in lumens (and your colors will be deeper on the Mitsu) But if you are focused on the numbers you would think it is horrible - but it is still a small improvement over the SP4805. Keep in mind that individual projectors can have variances - typically 20% on lumens, 10% on contrast


Actually they can even have more variances from my experience ;) but I agree .. by the way, in our review we used full zoom, as this is more the range where the projector will be used here in Germany. If I have time, i will add a small table with lumens - zoom ratio.


I see this all the time - people claim the blacks look grey - sure if you compare it to a projector that is 3x dimmer and has the similar contrast. You could also say the dimmer projector that the whites look grey - but for some reason I never see anyone say it that way. Either claim is just as wrong. You can only evaluate contrast once white levels have been equalized in direct comparisons


I personally think that most users are more sensitive to black level than to maximum luminance (as loong as a projector does not get too dark). Of course you could use ND filters and adjust brightness to personal taste. It is always good to have a bright projector because cutting light is easy, adding light is impossible.




But the bottom line is if black level is king for you - then you can accomplish a dim setup on any projector. If your really meant to say contrast is king - then choosing the brightest HT projector out there - means you can always find something with better contrast and deeper colors.

True too... Infocus machines were always known for much brightness @D65 and not soo high on / off contrast. I personally like the IN76 (like we wrote), my main concerns are just absolute black level (and yes you are right you could dim the projector), and the color space.


Regards,
Ekkehart, Cine4Home

Thanks for responding Kras.

Yes, I should’ve qualified my PQ desires more clearly. I’m not interested in choking all of the lumens out of picture to achieve black level only. I’ve seen dimly lit PJ’s and it’s not my bag. I want the best trade off of contrast AND black level AND shadow detail. I want to look at a projected image and see deep blacks, accurate white levels, and nicely saturated colors. :)

I understand all of the stuff about equipment variances and such but IIRC, Cine4home measured 1800:1 on the 4805. I realize that isn’t a huge difference, but still, the IN76 needs to be doing better than 1500:1 here IMO. (~1500:1 is what Cine4home measured for the Z4 without the iris tricks IIRC) Resolution aside, the IN76 should look more real than the 4805 at least. I wish that I could see them side-by-side.  And to further bend reality to my will, the IN76 should look better than all LCD’s because I haven’t seen one yet that I truly like. ;)

BTW, I’m not trashing the 4805 either. I think the picture looks great, but my Xbox 360 demands more pixels. :)

Actually they can even have more variances from my experience ;) but I agree .. by the way, in our review we used full zoom, as this is more the range where the projector will be used here in Germany. If I have time, i will add a small table with lumens - zoom ratio.


Regards,
Ekkehart, Cine4Home

That would be interesting to find out. As well, I think I remember Bob Williams mentioning something about contrast ratio variance between full and minimum zoom.?

Well I finally got my IN76 and have got it paired with my 110" Da-Lite HCCV screen. Before I get into this setup, I'll give a little of my background. I'm not a professional by any means, but I have setup my own sets over the years and those of friends and family. My most recent was my last set a Sony KDP-65XBR2 which had a bad red push. I was able to tame this via the service menu and get the convergence dialed in to the point that anyone who saw it was very impressed with its picture. So again while I am not a professional I am certainly not Joe six pack.

When I decided to get into a projector I started looking at the Epson 550, the Sony HS51, the Optoma HD72, and the Mitsubishi HC3000. I was able to view all but the HD72 locally so I can comment on their performance (and yes I know how well most stores set these up). The Epson I viewed in a boutique store that is of very high quality and the setup was pretty good. Colors were set to the point that none of them were glaringly off and the screen used was of high quality (a Stewart). I liked the color of the projector, but the picture to me was soft overall and the black level of the unit was just passable. The Sony I saw in another boutique store where I bought my last TV. The blacks on the Sony appeared deeper than the Epson and the picture slightly sharper. The colors were more washed, but the calibration is likely the culprit. Between the two I preferred the look of the Sony. The Mitsubishi I saw at American, which is a high volume chain store. The setup on it was surprisingly good for that type of place with a room off to the side where the lights could be shut off and the projector viewed in a fairly dim setting. The Mits was right off sharper and brighter than either of the other 2 with good black level (the Sony was probably a touch better). This unit seemed to have a definite shift to red. Still it was the pick of the bunch.

After seeing the projectors and reading up on the Optoma I was bouncing back and forth between the 2 DLP projectors. Then I read about the IN76. The out of the box calibration appealed as I spent probably 8 hours to get my last display dialed in and out here in Iowa there isn't much in the way of ISF calibrators. The fact it masked the chip to only use 1280x720 was also a plus as I knew I wanted a 16:9 screen (my first 16:9 set was one of the 56" analog Toshibas). The lack of bright color didn't really bother me either as I view at as more of a gimmick. So with that in mind I decided to take the plunge.

Like everyone else I was excited to get the projector and rigged it up on my sofa table with a makeshift component cable and threw the image up on my white wall. My first impression was the projector really did a fair job with a LOT of ambient light (I'm in a rental home with gloss white walls, white carpet, and several windows, moving soon :P). After night fall I got a feel for how the projector really looked. First off they aren't kidding on the color accuracy. Red and green were spot on. Blue needed a little bump according to Avia (the picture looked ever so slightly green before). Anyway back to the evaluation. After watching Spiderman Superbit and The Incredibles on the wall I came away very impressed. The picture was razor sharp with great color rendition and excellent contrast. The black level was not what I was used to on my CRT, but it was quite good. I would rate it on the wall not quite as good as what I saw on the HC3000.

So after a week of waiting I finally got in my screen which, as I said, was a 110" Da-Lite high contrast cinema vision. While I do see a little bit of the sparkle some complain about with these types of screen, overall I am very happy with it. It does good things for the IN76. The black level has gone down noticeably and is now the best of any of the setups I demo'd (I'm sure this is largely due to the screen and the completely dark room). I have watched both the X-men movies on it and I must say that I am completely satisfied with the IN76 at this point. Last night I threw in the latest Harry Potter film and was pleased with its perfomance on the dark opening scenes in the graveyard and its vibrancy and accuracy in the Quidditch Cup scenes.

On a side note I have an additional comparison with a friend who recently bought the Epson 550. I have yet to help him calibrate it, but can at least compare my setup with his (he has done some tweaking on it and it is in a light controlled basement). Color wise both projectors seem fairly vibrant. The IN76 definitely gets the nod for accuracy. In sharpness the IN76 really outshined the Epson. Watching the Italian Job on both projectors I was immediately struck with how soft the Epson looked. Black level and contrast are both better on the IN76 (even when I had it on the wall). He's using a unpainted Parkland DIY screen and the projector I'm sure needs additional calibration. I'm going to head over and see if I can help him calibrate it further here in the next couple weeks and can report back if there is interest (I'm also going to encourage him to experiment with some paint mixtures to see if they will deepen the blacks). Anyway, that is one amatuer's perspective on the IN76.

Here's Bob's quote about how contrast varies with the degree of zoom:

Post 533 in this thread
The lens has a variable f-number, as pretty much all lenses in projectors in this price class do. What this means is that, similar to camera lenses, for maximum contrast and best focus the picture should be at its smallest, but for maximum brightness the picture should be at its largest.

Based upon this info, can you measure the contrast ratio again at the minimum zoom setting possible Ekkhart?

Thanks

Here's Bob's quote about how contrast varies with the degree of zoom:

Post 533 in this thread


Based upon this info, can you measure the contrast ratio again at the minimum zoom setting possible Ekkhart?

Thanks
In my setup I measure a contrast of 2600:1 using the minimum zoom (projector as far as possible from the screen). I will try again with the maximum zoom.

Cine4Home

what source are you using - if digital RGB - did you catch the RGB Video and RGB PC setting in the menu - Bob slipped that menu in at the last minute because it would fail to autosync with some sources.. I measured higher contrast than that on the IN72 - and the IN76 certainly has more contrast.

krasmuzik,

Yes, black & white level were properly set up. The machine definately didnt make more than 1550:1 contrast ratio.

I will check next week with another machine and with zoom to minimum. Unfortunately I wont have time before cause I am driving to the High-End Expo tomorrow, where the new Cinetron Lcos machine will be demonstrated.

Regards,
Ekkehart

In my setup I measure a contrast of 2600:1 using the minimum zoom (projector as far as possible from the screen). I will try again with the maximum zoom.


Ahh, thank you very much Benoit! I see you're using the HCCV as well. I'm using BOC at the moment, but I've emailed Jason about buying some of the HCCV. I just haven't gotten to buy the material yet.

Kras,

I went back and read some of your dissertations on contrast, etc... Very uhh, illuminating. :p

Anyway, I'm understanding this all a bit better now. Still though, it's nice to see that Tolstoi measured higher contrast at minimum zoom. I'm still interested in Ekkehart's contrast ratio measurements at minimum zoom as well. It's like a security blanket, ya' know? :)

As for my room, my ceiling and front wall are flat black, and by flat, I mean flat- they have no sheen. Of course I had to suffer for my art though. In order to get a "flat black" paint with no sheen, I had to buy Glidden exterior flat paint. :rolleyes: Talk about pungent, that stuff has a smell that could knock a skunk over. I assume it's the ammonia-based compounds they use as flattening agents.

So, when I get done with it, the other three walls will be a ruddy-brownish color with no sheen. I figure that, a dark colored rug and a HCCV screen will get me close to where I want to be. Of course I forgot to mention my pimpin' baby blue recliner. No theater should be without one! :)

BTW, it's funny that you mentioned the light given off by electronic equipment. The other night, I had the light off in my PJ room and the LED glow from 360's power brick was clearly illuminating the screen. Once my eyes had adjusted, I could easily see shadows on the screen. :eek:

just ordered my second IN product. baby sister to my IN76, an IN72. hopefully will be here tomorrow.

Have it plugged in yet? You should really be impressed. I just finished reviewing it, and I'd have to say its the best of the 480p projectors out there. The black levels are particulary impressive. Out of the box performance on the eval unit they sent me was extremely close to 6500K, (mostly in the upper 6300's), so other than minor adjust of contrast, I didn't even bother to mess with calibrating it. Brightness was pretty average, about 360 lumens in low power, film setting, with zoom at max tele (dimmest). enjoy! -art

mobius

It is "illuminating" isn't it - I don't even measure in-room contrast for customers anymore. I don't like scraping brain matter off the wall and pouring it back into their skull....

Recently a customer discovered Millers (this might be a NW brand?) Home Theater Black. That stuff is a black hole - I stood in front of it with the rear seating can light on - I could not see the wall at all. Like teetering on the event horizon of a black hole. I need to go hang black acoustic panels for him - and I need to figure out how much candlepower of a shop light I need to even work in there!

I agree with you. It is a definately a step up from the 4805. I tested them both. I hate when people say it is a 4805 in a shiny box, because it is not. They addressed many issues on this thing, including color wheel motor issues, sealed optics, and plastic gassing. The optical engine is redesigned, and it delivers better dead black contrast than the 4805 as confirmed with a light meter. I'm surprised infocus was so conservative with their contrast numbers, my informal tests place it higher than the 4805.

It is also quieter than the 4805. Sure, 2 years ago the 4805 was an amazing product(and still is) but this is definately a step up.

The scaling on this thing with high def is unreal for 480p. You would almost think its 720p.

Also, I see very little RBE on this box. This one may be a keeper, even though I'm a big fan of LCD.

The colors out of the box match a professionally calibrated sony RPTV. I can't say the same for the 4805. It is the best 480p DLP (and big screen display value period) money can buy, hands down.



Have it plugged in yet? You should really be impressed. I just finished reviewing it, and I'd have to say its the best of the 480p projectors out there. The black levels are particulary impressive. Out of the box performance on the eval unit they sent me was extremely close to 6500K, (mostly in the upper 6300's), so other than minor adjust of contrast, I didn't even bother to mess with calibrating it. Brightness was pretty average, about 360 lumens in low power, film setting, with zoom at max tele (dimmest). enjoy! -art

Kras, It seems to me that the IN76 doesn't get all that much love now. Most reviews have been politely favorable and there have been many on this board who like the pq but rarely do I hear an all out rave. I was hoping to ditch my Panny AE900 and move back to the DLP fold but I don't think this projector is the one to help me do that. I'm suprised that after all the pent up anticipation for an affordable 720p Infocus unit the best that can be done is a contrast ratio that doesn't even measure up to the 4805. I have a very short basement ceiling and cannot accomodate a pj with a steep offset so I guess I'll keep waiting.

Moe

Moe, you might want to look at the Optoma HD7100. Prices keep falling on it, and next month, they will be readily available for more than a few bucks below $3K.

I've worked with and reviewed them both, and while there are always many differences, the HD7100 has the advantage of the Darkchip3, for a price that should soon be very close to the IN76. And you get a 3 year warranty standard. (in all fairness, I only get to play with projectors for 10-15 hours of lamp time, so often miss some of the idiosyncrosies, but for the bucks, I'm truly impressed with it.

As you point out the general commentary on the IN76 tends to be lukewarm. I think it's more that it is priced well above other DC2 projectors, and now, almost the same as a very solid, DC3 projector with variable lens shift, etc. Forgetting the gives and takes, I do believe it is the best value out there, IMHO, and an excellent choice for those on the fence.

There's nothing wrong with the IN76 (value wise) that $2000 price point wouldn't cure, but until then....

Are there any IN76 owners in the NoVA area?

Appreciate a PM if your willing to demo.

Cheers,
Mark

I agree with you. It is a definately a step up from the 4805.

It is also quieter than the 4805. Sure, 2 years ago the 4805 was an amazing product(and still is) but this is definately a step up.

The scaling on this thing with high def is unreal for 480p. You would almost think its 720p.

Also, I see very little RBE on this box. This one may be a keeper, even though I'm a big fan of LCD.

The colors out of the box match a professionally calibrated sony RPTV. I can't say the same for the 4805. It is the best 480p DLP (and big screen display value period) money can buy, hands down.

Some day we'll break you of that LCD habit of yours, but back to the conversation, the IN72 is most significantly quieter than the 4805, and it does look exceptional on HD as you point out. (but I must take issue, you might think it's like a 720p machine - especially the softer ones like the Panny 900u, but if you have a really sharp 720p, like my BenQ 8720, the difference is truly stunning.

And I really was blown away with the blacklevels of the IN72. Here's an image of the IN72 (left), the new BenQ W100 (480p, $899 MAP) on the right. The two projectors were set up side by side, fed the same signal over HDMI (Gefen splitter), and projected on a Carada Brilliant White screen. While the W100's black levels are definitely Not impressive, the difference is surprisingly HUGE!

http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-articles/IN72_left_W100_right_BlacklevelsSpacecruiser.jpg

Note some of the whites on the IN72 are blown out, but that relates strictly to my digital camera. I had the IN72 in full power and the W100 in low, making the IN72 the slightly brighter of the two (note that the frame advance icon on both from my Oppo deck is slightly overexposed on the IN72, indicating that it is a bit brighter.

Then look at the blacks, what a difference! -a

[QUOTE=presenter]Moe, you might want to look at the Optoma HD7100. Prices keep falling on it, and next month, they will be readily available for more than a few bucks below $3K./QUOTE]

Unfortunately my pj is mounted directly over my head and the HD7100, according to your review, is not very quiet. I'm really not asking much. A DLP with killer pq, quiet, flexibilty of install, and cheap to boot. :p

[QUOTE=presenter]Moe, you might want to look at the Optoma HD7100. Prices keep falling on it, and next month, they will be readily available for more than a few bucks below $3K./QUOTE]

Unfortunately my pj is mounted directly over my head and the HD7100, according to your review, is not very quiet. I'm really not asking much. A DLP with killer pq, quiet, flexibilty of install, and cheap to boot. :p


Oh well, two out of three isn't bad... and the HD7100 isn't bad in low power, but it certainy is above average for most projectors in their corresponding low power modes.

I had the HD7100 here the same time as the IN76. I should have listened to them side by side, but didn't. (I also did side by side shots between the IN76 and the HD72, but didn't think to do them against the HD7100. I didn't expect the HD7100's pricing to drop as quickly as it did.

Good luck in your hunt. -a

First of all, I want to say that I enjoy your reviews and you have a great site. I can't wait to read the review on the IN72.

The blacks on the benq looks worse than my Epson S1+, I would think it is an LCD! I have a picture somewhere A/Bing the Epson with the IN and and the blacks look a bit deeper on the Epson!

The only slight complaint I have on the IN 72 is that out of the box it may crush blacks a bit. The blacks get "too black" and and you may loose the creases(shadows) in a black suit. A firmware upgrade seemed to help a bit. It may need some tweaking to fix this problem, if you still have the review unit try to duplicate this issue.

The IN seems very bright in high power mode. I'm curious about the lumen numbers you got for high mode.


Some day we'll break you of that LCD habit of yours, but back to the conversation, the IN72 is most significantly quieter than the 4805, and it does look exceptional on HD as you point out. (but I must take issue, you might think it's like a 720p machine - especially the softer ones like the Panny 900u, but if you have a really sharp 720p, like my BenQ 8720, the difference is truly stunning.

And I really was blown away with the blacklevels of the IN72. Here's an image of the IN72 (left), the new BenQ W100 (480p, $899 MAP) on the right. The two projectors were set up side by side, fed the same signal over HDMI (Gefen splitter), and projected on a Carada Brilliant White screen. While the W100's black levels are definitely Not impressive, the difference is surprisingly HUGE!

http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-articles/IN72_left_W100_right_BlacklevelsSpacecruiser.jpg

Note some of the whites on the IN72 are blown out, but that relates strictly to my digital camera. I had the IN72 in full power and the W100 in low, making the IN72 the slightly brighter of the two (note that the frame advance icon on both from my Oppo deck is slightly overexposed on the IN72, indicating that it is a bit brighter.

Then look at the blacks, what a difference! -a

First of all, I want to say that I enjoy your reviews and you have a great site. I can't wait to read the review on the IN72.

The blacks on the benq looks worse than my Epson S1+, I would think it is an LCD! I have a picture somewhere A/Bing the Epson with the IN and and the blacks look a bit deeper on the Epson!

The only slight complaint I have on the IN 72 is that out of the box it may crush blacks a bit. The blacks get "too black" and and you may loose the creases(shadows) in a black suit. A firmware upgrade seemed to help a bit. It may need some tweaking to fix this problem, if you still have the review unit try to duplicate this issue.

The IN seems very bright in high power mode. I'm curious about the lumen numbers you got for high mode.

OK, I remember the S1, and wouldn't have thought it would be close, to either (obviously closer to the W100. I did fiddle with brightness and could get blacks approaching the IN72, but a noticeable percentage of stars and dim space dust go away. I would suspect that the S1 would not produce anywhere near the stars of either. Remember both images on the screen are captured overexposed so you can easily see the difference between the two. Also you may notice that despite the much lighter blacks there are more stars on the image of the BenQ. So that would lead me to agree that you are correct that there is some crushing on the IN72.

Interestingly I just got in Epson's entry level Home 20 (which I would hope would seriously beat out the old S1. I will be shooting the same image again on it. And will post. -art

PS, the IN72 review is up. It really is a fine machine, the best of the 480p's I've seen, I'm pretty sure. The possible competition is the H27, and I've got an Optoma H27 coming back in tomorrow (haven't seen one since my review last year). It may give the IN72 a run for the money on the blacks, we'll see. I don't expect the Home 20 will do any better than the BenQ. I will have had the IN72 and W100 (both gone as of yesterday) and next week the Home 20 and H27. So basically back to back. I'll try to piece together the four into one comparison and write it up over the next couple of weeks. (Though I would have liked to have all 4 at the same time.)

Great IN72 review, I put the pics next to some of the more expensive projectors you reviewed and it really holds its own. You just need a link from the main page!

I was referring more to the 'light black/gray' cast in the background, not the starcount. I A/Bed some starry comet scenes in Armageddon and IN72 shows many, many stars and space debris, while some are lost (mabye 10-15%) on the Epson. The Epson black definately looks greyish and washed, but hard to compare to the BENQ since you overexposed.

I cant wait to see your Home 20 review, I still may buy one for another room in the house. Their customer service claimed it is double the contrast ratio over the original S1, and Epson claimed it is competion for the IN72. Funny thing about epson projectors is that the colors are pretty good, the S1 isnt even a home theatre projector and looks very similar (color wise) on bright scenes to the IN. I just changed the epson color temp setting (there is little to play with on these units)

I believe it is the same light engine as the Epson Moviemachine your reviewed, but I cant be sure. It would be good to compare pics on those two as well.

I don't think there is a way to adjust the crushing(its not that bad, but I think the 4805 may have a very slight edge here), that may be a limitation of this projector. I guess if you push the contrast envelope, that is what happens. THen again, you can spilt hairs on any projector at any price...My calibrated sony RPTV has issues too.


OK, I remember the S1, and wouldn't have thought it would be close, to either (obviously closer to the W100. I did fiddle with brightness and could get blacks approaching the IN72, but a noticeable percentage of stars and dim space dust go away. I would suspect that the S1 would not produce anywhere near the stars of either. Remember both images on the screen are captured overexposed so you can easily see the difference between the two. Also you may notice that despite the much lighter blacks there are more stars on the image of the BenQ. So that would lead me to agree that you are correct that there is some crushing on the IN72.

Interestingly I just got in Epson's entry level Home 20 (which I would hope would seriously beat out the old S1. I will be shooting the same image again on it. And will post. -art

Please do not read if you are easily offended by someone blowing off a little steam...

I purchased an IN72 (projector #1) from AVS (thanks fellas, you did a great job and I appreciate the personal attention).

I was disappointed in the amount of sound I was hearing, especially since most were reporting using terms like, 'whisper quiet' and 'I can't even hear mine from 4 feet away' etc...

I called AVS and was told to contact InFocus tech support, which I did. They didn't ask me to turn the projector on, didn't ask me to check if I was mistakenly running in high power, didn't ask me how or where my projector was mounted. Just gave me an RMA number for defective exchange.

The replacement projector (projector #2) arrived a few days later with horrible lamp flicker. The flicker was so bad I thought the bulb was going to explode. Again, a quick call to AVS and InFocus tech support had a replacement on the way. This time I chose to go through InFocus directly. I was told that they would place a hold on my credit card until the replacement projector was returned. BUT, they went ahead and charged my credit card immediately (didn't place a hold). I did receive a credit but it was 7 or 8 days later. Had this credit fallen between two billing periods, I would have had to send my credit card company the money for the replacement replacement projector or pay interest on the charge. I wasn't very happy about that at all.

The replacement replacement projector (projector #3) was on my doorstep within the next couple of days. This replacement replacement projector had a gap/crease/crack between the lens housing and the body of the projector where they all meet. It was about an inch long and maybe 1/16 inch wide. There was quite a bit of light leaking out of this gap. I called InFocus tech support and was immediately offered a replacement. I was told there should be absolutely no light leakage out of the IN72 as it had a sealed light path.

The replacement replacement replacement projector (projector #4) was on my doorstep the very next morning. It also had the gap/crease/crack AND a huge dust blob right in the top center of the image. I contacted InFocus tech support once again. I was told to submit more pictures and that whatever needed to do to make this right, they were going to do it. That was the very last I heard from anybody at InFocus for two weeks! During that time, I had emailed them maybe 3 times with no response. I found out yesterday, when I called InFocus, that the tech support person who was handling it was out sick.

I asked for help saying I didn't want to wait any longer. I was asked to send this new tech support person the pictures that I had sent the previous tech support person, which I did. I waited 48 hours and never heard anything back so called again today.

I talked with a new tech support person who said my gap and dust blob were created by a badly sealed lamp door. All I had to do was merely unmount my projector, remove the mount, open the lamp door and reseal it correctly and both my problems would be solved. I was skeptical but followed the instructions. Of course, afterwards once the projector had been remounted, absolutely nothing was fixed. SAME gap and SAME dust blob.

I called and talked with the latest tech support person who now told me that the dust blob was my problem. He noticed on one of my pictures that I had sent showing the light gap, that I had used one of the plastic base mounting positions for one of the legs on my wall/ceiling mount. My dust blob was caused by my erroneous use of this one mounting loacation, which caused an 'extreme' amount of stress on the projector. BUT, to do me a favor, he offered to have my unit serviced so that the dust blob that I created by my mickey mouse mounting job could be removed.

Needless to say, I was a little resentfull that this entire fiasco could now so easily be laid entirely at my feet. Of course, there was no mention of how much of my time had been wasted on calls to InFocus, or how much of my time was wasted mounting/unmouting/remounting all these projectors, or how much my little home theater project has monopolized all my free time over the last month or so.

I feel InFocus mistakenly replaced the very first projector and the 3rd projector. At no time had I asked for a projector to be replaced, with the exception of the projector that had the lamp flicker.

InFocus should have enlightened me regarding a projector will be louder ceiling mounted and back against a wall then if sat on a table in the middle of a room. That makes perfect sense to me now. InFocus should also have told me that the gap wasn't a real issue that would affect the picture, just a seam between parts that wasn't that big of a deal. But, instead of helping me out, both times they immediately offered to replace the projector. Now, normally I wouldn't complain about a company offering to replace instead of repair my new product, but in this case they are implying that this has all been my fault that so many projectors had been replaced. So, now I have a projector that does indeed need something done with it, and my only option BECAUSE of all the other replacements, is to send it in for service. This means I would be without a projector for who knows how long.

I just don't appreciate how things have gone down.

Again, I apologize for the rant. AVS has been great through all of this, I've even felt bad because none of this was their fault at all.

George -bub

Needless to say, I was a little resentfull that this entire fiasco could now so easily be laid entirely at my feet.

Don't be so sure you actually did anything wrong. I would be shocked if a dust blob could be created (in a "sealed" light path) because you used one of the plastic base screw holes to mount. I'd imagine you still had a couple of other screw holes used during the mounting, so how much stress could really be placed on the projector because of that? Maybe I'm wrong (I'm no expert), but that doesn't sound right to me..

It's the old trick where they saw one thing you did wrong and someone decided to just use that as the cause of all your woes.

And I thought I went throught a ton of drama getting my IN76. I went through nothing compared to you.

Great IN72 review, I put the pics next to some of the more expensive projectors you reviewed and it really holds its own. You just need a link from the main page!

I cant wait to see your Home 20 review, I still may buy one for another room in the house. Their customer service claimed it is double the contrast ratio over the original S1, and Epson claimed it is competion for the IN72. Funny thing about epson projectors is that the colors are pretty good, the S1 isnt even a home theatre projector and looks very similar (color wise) on bright scenes to the IN. I just changed the epson color temp setting (there is little to play with on these units)

I believe it is the same light engine as the Epson Moviemachine your reviewed, but I cant be sure. It would be good to compare pics on those two as well.


Greetings, PM me what you were thinking of re the "link from the main page".

Yes, Epson has always been great on color accuracy, for almost 10 years I sold Epson biz projectors, and even from the first 3 panel ELP3000 (a whopping 250 lumens), they aways nailed the colors. They do have a great engineering mindset overthere. I will find out if it is the same light engine in the Home 20 and the Moviemate and get back on that. I do doubt that the lens is the same, but that's just a hunch, as I haven't even unboxed the Home 20 yet.

Everyone, have a great weekend. I am making a concious effort this weekend, (for once) to NOT play with any projectors. Watch mine, sure, but a real weekend off of work. (Gotta - daughter's birthday, etc.) -art

Wow! I have not posted in some time but after reading about your nightmare (Bub) with Infocus it just reminded me of a similar experience I had with them back when I first bought my SP4800. I ended up going VERY high up in the ranks of the company and got some peoples attention after MUCH frustration and wasted time. In the end, I got a working projector that served me very well for several years. Infocus is a big company so things like this are bound to happen. When it happens to you it's hard not to take it personally and walk away with a bad taste in your mouth. I finally sold my SP4800 last year and got into CRT. That's another story and will probably end in my picking up another DLP. Hence my appearance back here in the Digital Projector forum. The IN72 sounds very promising and might just be the ticket for my next "plug and play" home theater setup. Don't get me wrong, I'm not giving up on CRT entirely but I just don't have the time for it right now although I think the rewards would be great. Bub, sorry about your experience and I hope you get to enjoy your projector soon.

bub, that's a real bummer man. i can empathize with you. exactly which mounting hole did they tell you not to use? we should enlighten others here to that so if it is actually a problem, nobody else is doing it. i can say that i actually removed the base from my in76 and used the same screws to mount mine with a uni mount. maybe i'm doing something wrong too.

it probably doesn't make you feel any better, but i can speak from experience that there are other manufacturers (starts with an O) out there that have far far far far worse customer service and responsivness. it's definitely NOT all about the O. ;)

based on what's happened to you thus far, it's going to be pretty hard to make things right. i wish you the best of luck.

just got my in72 today and will be mounting it tonight when i get home. i'll take close look at the holes, but if you could let us know which one they told you not to use, that would be great.

Have it plugged in yet? You should really be impressed. I just finished reviewing it, and I'd have to say its the best of the 480p projectors out there. The black levels are particulary impressive. Out of the box performance on the eval unit they sent me was extremely close to 6500K, (mostly in the upper 6300's), so other than minor adjust of contrast, I didn't even bother to mess with calibrating it. Brightness was pretty average, about 360 lumens in low power, film setting, with zoom at max tele (dimmest). enjoy! -art

just got it today. leaving early today to go home and slap it up. :D

i'm sure i'll be very happy with it. i'm stoked on my in76.

i'm going to put this puppy through its paces as this is our primary television upstairs. i'll be ecstatic if i hit 2000 hours. it's replacing a panny 700. i just couldn't take the poor color accuracy and lousy blacks/shadow detail on the 700 and i'm willing to give up the 720p for a sharper 480p dlp -- sde and all! :D

Billymac,
The InFocus tech told me NOT to use ANY of the base mount positions with a ceiling mount!!! So, the three innermost mounting positions are ONLY for the base mount. The other three outermost mounting positions are to be used for ceiling mounts.

Good luck,
George -bub


bub, that's a real bummer man. i can empathize with you. exactly which mounting hole did they tell you not to use? we should enlighten others here to that so if it is actually a problem, nobody else is doing it. i can say that i actually removed the base from my in76 and used the same screws to mount mine with a uni mount. maybe i'm doing something wrong too.

it probably doesn't make you feel any better, but i can speak from experience that there are other manufacturers (starts with an O) out there that have far far far far worse customer service and responsivness. it's definitely NOT all about the O. ;)

based on what's happened to you thus far, it's going to be pretty hard to make things right. i wish you the best of luck.

just got my in72 today and will be mounting it tonight when i get home. i'll take close look at the holes, but if you could let us know which one they told you not to use, that would be great.

thanks for getting back to us bub. i'll double-check my config tonight.

Bub

light flicker - Bob has posted on the forum before about it. All you have to do is run in high power mode a bit - and it goes away. It is just a matter of the lamp burn-in - you have to force it to arc another path for a bit. Same thing happened with my demo. Even $20K projectors can suffer the same issue - it is mostly inherent to the design of these projection lamps. Infocus does some creative power supply things to mitigate it - but it can still happen. I am sure hindsite is 20/20 - but sometimes posting for help to the forum may save you some aggravation...

lemon exchange is their standard procedure within 30d of purchase upon complaint. Would you rather wait for a repair when you just bought something? A 15d repair and 15d ship turnaroud cycle that said sound levels are normal and in spec? No I would not either - rather they assumed it was not an issue of expectation and that you had defective sound levels - and swapped it. Without a local dealer there - how else are they going to determine if sound levels are defective or not?

I have done the same lemon exchange with a customer that did have defective sound levels - but then I have the advantage of knowing what these typically sound like and I properly set expectations and demo it so they know what to expect.

Anyways when you are having service trouble ask to talk to priority support manager rather than getting bounced from whoever answers the phone next. You will find your service issues go much more smoothly. Even if you get the blob cleaned out and done with service - call the support manager so he knows how things went down - and what your suggestions are for improving the process. I think the reality is there is only so much troubleshooting one can do over the phone - so companies would rather just swap and hope that fixes the problem.

I guess I don't follow you on the case crack - was this there out of the box - or was Infocus saying this is case stresses from mounting - and it was just the lamp door not sealing shut into place because of it? I have a picture in my head of the clamshell case broken in half -not sure what you are describing here!

Sure you are frustrated that you got ran thru the ringer on exchanges - but how much more frustating if the did nothing but say - "they are loud - live with it" or "case has cracks - live with it" when you first call. Believe me it would have festered worse with you if they did absolutely nothing to fix your problems and just told you to deal with it - even though in hindsite you seem like you kinda wish they had - so you could have been off watching movies and just lived with it instead.

billymac

yes you should use the outer holes with ceiling mounts (i.e the holes not used by the table mount) - it is a center of gravity/mass issue. The table mount supports the entire projector so the mounting location in the center is not an issue.

I will try to post the picture I took of the IN72 showing the case flaw...

George -bub

My IN72 showing case flaw (light showing through besides the lens housing)

I will try to post the picture I took of the IN72 showing the case flaw...

George -bub

My IN72 showing case flaw (light showing through besides the lens housing)
Heh, my IN72 has the same issue. I didn't think its a big deal. I may call infocus now that you made an issue.

This may be slightly off topic for this thread so bear with me. A family member is upgrading to a firehawk and is willing to give me his old 106" Da-lite HCMW. My question is: Does the IN72 have the guts to fill this screen in low-power mode? or even possibly in hi-power? If it can't what are my options? I really like the image I saw at a store demo but they couldn't or wouldn't comment on this screen but recomended a 100" elite motorized white instead. My walls are a semi-gloss medium gray color and ceiling is flat white but I plan to partially paint the ceiling and perhaps hang some retractable dark curtains to the sides. It is a room in the basement with small windows which are easilly blackened to the point I can't see the hand in front of my face. I would prefer though to keep just enough light to navigate the room. Any thoughts?

putz

at worst used lamp you will be movie theater brite - and with the new lamp you are likely going to think it is too brite. The SP4805 I recommended 92" with this screen - but I don't have a problem jumping up to a 106" for the IN72 - and you can go even larger in a bat cave.

What is the duration of running in high power to eliminate light flicker? I just started seeing it today (45 hours in). I ran it in high power for about an hour. I haven't looked yet (just going downstairs to check it out now). Also, I am concerned that something MIGHT be wrong with my bulb, as it appears to be less bright than it was two weeks ago when it was new (perhaps I am just used to it...or my mind is playing tricks on me).

InFocus should have enlightened me regarding a projector will be louder ceiling mounted and back against a wall then if sat on a table in the middle of a room.

Sorry about your dilemma, but it is YOUR responsibility to figure out BEFORE you buy a projector exactly how it will integrate into your home and any adverse effects it mght create...

I agree with agro1. Furthermore, it actually makes sense that a projector would be louder up against a ceiling and against a back wall. Think about this. You take any noise source, and put it next to two reflective surfaces, and the sound will bounce off of them and be re-directed. If the surfaces are at the right angle, it will reflect back towards you. So it isn't Infocus's fault, it's physic's fault. Good luck trying to change physics! :)

I'm in the same boat. I'm flush mounted up to the ceiling, as well as within 6" of a back wall. Thus, the sound is re-directed down towards me - the listener. I'm going to put some sound diffuser or sound absorption material in the viscinity of the projector and I bet it'll drop the noise level at my seating position. Others may want to do the same.

Heboil

Lamps decay exponentially. The largest drop is in the beginning - not the end. Even at 15hrs - I noticed red brightness is starting to calm down.

Check your contrast or RGB Video or gamma or white peaking settings - maybe somebody messed with it. It tripped me up with my video generator - I had defaulted it to RGB for the HTPC - then had to manually set to RGB Video

Give High power a couple of movies - if you can put up with the fan.

krasmuzik,

Yes, black & white level were properly set up. The machine definately didnt make more than 1550:1 contrast ratio.

I will check next week with another machine and with zoom to minimum. Unfortunately I wont have time before cause I am driving to the High-End Expo tomorrow, where the new Cinetron Lcos machine will be demonstrated.

Regards,
Ekkehart

I can confirm contrast is sensitive to zoom (actually Bob Williams already said as much pages ago)

Min Zoom I got 1940:1
Max Zoom I got 1630:1

This is out of the box condition - no white peaking and 6500K not calibrated.

At marketed condition (NativeK and white peaking)

Min Zoom I got 2305:1
Max Zoom I got 1930:1

So about 20% more contrast with min zoom than max.

And no I do not have a black velvet room, and no I am not taping up my LEDs. Nobody on here does that.

Obviously not gluing the lamp door shut has not affected contrast any....if you want to see case leakage that affects contrast - check out the big blue power LED on the Optoma H79! That one did require duct tape!

This is better perfomance than the SP4805 for anyone ready to chuck their box in the river.

I can confirm contrast is sensitive to zoom (actually Bob Williams already said as much pages ago)

Min Zoom I got 1940:1
Max Zoom I got 1630:1

This is out of the box condition - no white peaking and 6500K not calibrated.






So, basically that confirms our measurement of 1550:1 with Max Zoom @ D65 ;)

I will check the Min Zoom tomorrow, I guess it will get around 1850:1 based on your observation... we will see..


Regards,
Ekkehart, www.cine4home.de

please help

hey i just got my in72 this weekend and when i sync my htpc up to it, it's defaulting to 720x480p which is a 4:3 res

however when i try 848x480 or even 856x480 (a widescreen res) the picture is fuzzy and not as clear as 720x480

i can hit 16:9 with the remote with 720x480, but then it's just stretching it

i'm a little concerned that there's no way to pixel map a widescreen image with this projector.

anybody have some help for me?

I can confirm contrast is sensitive to zoom (actually Bob Williams already said as much pages ago)

Min Zoom I got 1940:1
Max Zoom I got 1630:1

This is out of the box condition - no white peaking and 6500K not calibrated.

At marketed condition (NativeK and white peaking)

Min Zoom I got 2305:1
Max Zoom I got 1930:1

So about 20% more contrast with min zoom than max.

And no I do not have a black velvet room, and no I am not taping up my LEDs. Nobody on here does that.

Obviously not gluing the lamp door shut has not affected contrast any....if you want to see case leakage that affects contrast - check out the big blue power LED on the Optoma H79! That one did require duct tape!

This is better perfomance than the SP4805 for anyone ready to chuck their box in the river.



:cool:

Thanks for taking the measurements. I feel better now. :)

please help

hey i just got my in72 this weekend and when i sync my htpc up to it, it's defaulting to 720x480p which is a 4:3 res

however when i try 848x480 or even 856x480 (a widescreen res) the picture is fuzzy and not as clear as 720x480

i can hit 16:9 with the remote with 720x480, but then it's just stretching it

i'm a little concerned that there's no way to pixel map a widescreen image with this projector.

anybody have some help for me?



:confused:


Does the IN72 have a "Native" toggle for aspect ratio?

Are you using a VGA or DVI cable?

I was able to force 848x480 over VGA on my 4805 without any problem. While it looked good, I have a feeling that it would've looked much better over DVI.

i think i fixed it. switching from 60hz to 59hz has seemed to fix it. although i think 720x480 at 60 may have been a little sharper (even while stretched forcing 16:9 with remote), 848x480 at 59hz looks great too.

thanks

it's defaulting to 720x480p which is a 4:3 res720x480 is not a 4:3 res. 640x480 is 4:3.

720x480 is the native resolution of a DVD. It is the same as 480p.

But this native DVD resolution has to be compressed to 640x480 for 4:3 or expanded to 854x480 for 16:9.

720x480 is not a 4:3 res. 640x480 is 4:3.

720x480 is the native resolution of a DVD. It is the same as 480p.

But this native DVD resolution has to be compressed to 640x480 for 4:3 or expanded to 854x480 for 16:9.
What makes 720x480 a non-4:3 res? That's BS. There are plenty of 4:3 DVDs.

okay, so i'm confused again then.

with the projector set to native 720x480 looks like a 4:3 image

when i set the projector to 16x9 it looks slightly stretched with this res

848x480 at 59hz appears to fill the panel properly, but it is possibly a little less sharp as 720x480

this is while looking at the windows desktop with a 6600GT and the latest nvidia drivers.

What makes 720x480 a non-4:3 res?Well ... perhaps because 720x480 is a 4.5:3 ratio.That's BS. There are plenty of 4:3 DVDs.Whatever.

with the projector set to native 720x480 looks like a 4:3 imageMeasure it. It's not. Do some basic math.

i get your point, but still while set to native, i have bars on the sides

when set to 16:9 it's stretched slightly

and when it's set to 4:3 the bars are a little bigger and it's slightly squished

what should i feed it then cavu? don't fight guys. i'm just looking for a little guidance.