NEC new plasma thread!!! - 42xr4, 50xr5, 61xr4 [Text View] - Page 15

muttt

07-10-06, 12:04 PM

Ok. My saga has apparently concluded. The saga is documented in these posts:

--
Original Post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7792429#post7792429)
Additional Comments (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7794159#post7794159)
Called NEC (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7823028#post7823028)
Latest Update (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7913635#post7913635)
--

So, just to recap:

-Broke in plasma using non-logo'ed fullscreen HD and/or breakin DVD. Most of first 100 hours had screen wiper on, too.
-Had LisaM's settings, actually with brightness and contrast bumped down a few notches each (i.e., both were below factory levels).
-At around 120 hours, watched ESPN for a while, including 35-45 minutes where the bottom righthand logo was constant.
-Experienced a faint but recognizable permanent image burn-in, despite inversing and then many hours of full screen hd/white screen/breakin dvd. (My panel is now at 360 hours and it's still there, no better or worse.)
-Called NEC, they said it sounded abnormal and sent a tech over.
-Tech observed the burn-in, insisted every panel burns in, reminded me that warranty doesn't cover burn-in.
-Called NEC, was told I needed to speak to regional manager guy.
-Played phone tag with that guy, finally getting him today.
[[-Haven't experienced any more burn-in, despite watching World Cup games, etc. Do experience IR but it goes away shortly afterward.]]

SHORT VERSION
I'm SOL. NEC told me there is absolutely nothing they can do for me, as burn-in issues are not covered under warranty. As far as burn-in is concerned, there is no such thing as panel variability, so this could not be a defective panel.

LONG VERSION
So I finally reached the regional support manager for my region. I should say up front that despite a very unsatisfactory resolution of this problem, he was at all times very pleasant and patient with me.

In a nutshell, NEC's position on the issue is that burn-in happens. It just does. Even if your brightness and contrast are down below factory settings. Even if you break in your panel. It's not NEC's fault at all -- it's only a matter of how a station does their logo.

Now, to flesh that out a bit, the first thing the guy tells me is that the 42XR4A manual explains how to prevent burn-in, and I should follow those instructions. I would have laughed if that response weren't so sad. As all of you out there who have read the manual (p. EN-3) (http://necvisualsystems.com/cms/documents/UserManuals/usermanual_42XR4A_50XR5A_61XR4A.pdf) know, the instructions pale in comparison to the detailed information out there on sites like this one on how to avoid burn-in. I took the guy through the steps I had taken -- breakin over 100 hours, brightness and contrast low at all times, no static image for over 35-45 minutes.

He responded by explaining that where a logo has high contrast, burn-in happens. To all panels. That was news to me. I explained that in researching panels and breakin and all that jazz, I had come across many many owners of NEC panels and nobody had reported any permanent burn-in at all, let alone from this viewing pattern.

Moreover, I emphasized that many users had reported viewing in more "dangerous" viewing pattern -- higher brightness/contrast, longer viewing with logos, less breakin -- without having any permanent burn-in. Again, he insisted that burn-in happens when there's a logo with contrast, and that's that. (Note that he said this happens to all panels, regardless of manufacturer. Uh, ok.)

At that point he reminded me that burn-in is not covered under warranty. And I said that I don't consider this a burn-in issue; I consider this a defective panel.

His response was that all the panels are the same. They are manufactured identically, and if one has this problem, they all would. I couldn't help but get a little sarcastic: "Well, if all panels are identical, why have a service center at all? You're telling me no panel ever has to be replaced? And if one did, wouldn't they all need to be replaced?"

His response was that he meant specifically the technology responsible for the image -- that was identical across all panels. There is no panel variability through manufacturing. I think he could probably hear my eyebrow raise at that, but if that's NEC's line, I'll let them defend it. I just said something along the lines of, "Well, I doubt that your manufacturing methods -- or anyone's -- are so precise." But anyway I let that go.

I tried a different route -- what could I have done to prevent this? After all, I've watched World Cup games on the same settings and had no burn-in. The answer was simply to watch channels that didn't have the burn-in-able logo.

Which led me back to the beginning: How could this issue be common to all panels (not just NEC, all plasmas!) when other people watch ESPNHD with higher brightness/contrast settings, for longer, and do not experience burn-in.

I'm afraid to say that my notes are sparse, and while I cannot be sure, I am relatively confident that I never got an answer to that. All panels are the same -- there is no manufacturing variability -- so everyone's can burn-in. But only mine burned in... and this was... why? I think the response was something about the logo.

Anyway, I went to my last resort, the Internet. I didn't want to threaten them per se, but rather emphasize that many people were tracking this issue online, in fora where prospective buyers compare panels, and did NEC really want the company position to be that their panels burn-in, even with low settings and after breakin?

The answer, apparently, is yes. After a little back-and-forth, the guy left me on hold, presumably to speak to some higher-ups. He returned a few minutes later to confirm that there was nothing they could do. My burn-in was mine to keep, and my panel was no different than any other NEC.

He also told me that if I wrote things about this issue on the Internet, that NEC would probably respond. Which is fine. I never meant the whole 'Net thing to be a threat so much as a reminder that whatever they told me would be broadcast to the masses as the company position on burn-in from 40 minutes of ESPNHD on low settings after breakin. And there it is.

I had every intention to accurately reproduce NEC's position on this issue, and I believe I have done so as fairly as my memory will allow. If anyone from NEC believes I have misrepresented my conversation today, please let me know -- I do not mean to put words in the company's mouth, but at the same time I was told what I was told.

And on that note, I think the responses I got raise questions that many of us would like answered -- specifically, if NEC's position is that for IR/burn-in, all panels are identical, how can you explain the wide variation in burn-in/IR experiences detailed in this thread? It would be nice if someone from NEC were interested in responding.

As a final thought, I've repeatedly said that I'm otherwise very happy with this panel. And I am. It's a great TV and I enjoy watching it. Unfortunately, despite their good response times and friendly agents, NEC customer service has left me with a very bitter taste in my mouth over this issue. Not to mention an ESPN permanently inscribed on my screen. (I guess it could be worse -- how to explain to my friends how the Lifetime Network logo got there? :) )

In the end, I hope that prospective buyers consider my experience but also consider the experience of the many happier owners in this thread. As I said a while ago:

If the use that caused my burn-in caused burn-in for everyone, no one would buy a plasma. Clearly something's up.
NEC disagrees. Take that for whatever you think it's worth.

LisaM

07-10-06, 12:10 PM

tony17

07-10-06, 12:17 PM

Muttt: If I were you, I would contact the top levels of executive management for the entire company. You were dealing with a regional support manager but not with the President or CEO of the company. Go higher...

I agree Muttt and I would not let the issue simply end there if it were me. I would make sure to get the vendor you purchased from (which I think you might have said you already did) involved as well. I am also surprised at NEC's response....my dealings with them have been completely opposite.

Something like this could turn other prospective purchasers off, whereas if they just took care of you and replaced your panel, it may have actually pushed those prospective buyers over the edge to actually by an NEC.

As Lisa said, don't let it end there...

Good luck!

muttt

07-10-06, 12:19 PM

Thanks for the support, y'all. You're right, I shouldn't let this end here. Getting my dealer involved seems like a start -- today is a little hectic but I'll get in touch with them soon. I'll keep you posted.

willy638

07-10-06, 01:34 PM

Well, my 42XR4A has developed a problem on the component inputs. Went to watch a DVD last night, and within a minute or so the picture turned into a bunch of horizontal lines.

Troubleshot the problem today, happens with two different sources and either input. There is a problem with the NEC.

Actually, the problem seems heat related as it takes a couple minutes to occur. Maybe it's got something to do with the fans not turning on.

If anyone remembers, I asked this question here and got no answers. Fans have never turned on in this set. Tried to get answers from here, Cleveland Plasma and NEC with no success.

...

My logic tells me it may be fan related ... What sucks is, the set was ISF calibrated
@ aproximately 700 hours.

RK

I had the same issue occur on my xr5. My problem did not appear to be heat related, it occured only seconds after using either of the component inputs with multiple sources. It had developed within the first 100 hours. I had to have the unit replaced. NEC's only suggestion over the phone was to try a hard reset, which had no effect.

sakaike

07-10-06, 02:03 PM

Data point that is not much help...
On my 50XR5 the fans cycle regularly. Especially on these warm days of summer...
Another data point...

The fans on my 50XR5 are on continuously, from start-up to shut-down. And relatively speaking, they are noisy. In our family room, with the sound muted, I can hear the fans from 11 feet back on my sofa. When the sound is on, it is not noticeable, so I don't qualify it as a defect or even an annoyance, but it's definitely there.

And yes, the noise is definitely coming from the fans, not any other part of the panel, and the air it is pushing out is pretty warm, beginning within 15-30 minutes of start-up.

Korszo

07-10-06, 03:13 PM

Another data point...

The fans on my 50XR5 are on continuously, from start-up to shut-down. And relatively speaking, they are noisy. In our family room, with the sound muted, I can hear the fans from 11 feet back on my sofa. When the sound is on, it is not noticeable, so I don't qualify it as a defect or even an annoyance, but it's definitely there.

And yes, the noise is definitely coming from the fans, not any other part of the panel, and the air it is pushing out is pretty warm, beginning within 15-30 minutes of start-up.
Fans running all the time doesn't seem normal either, especially from start up when everything is cold. When I called NEC regarding my problem this morning, I again mentioned the fans...the rep was quick to respond they only run when necessary...I responded that the temps in this room get to 80 - 85 degrees in the summer and the fans don't run. He had no comment...to me that just does'nt seem normal. If the set doesn't get that warm, why would they bother with fans and the added expense?

Thanks bvader and sakaike for your response on the 50"s. Sure wish someone would post their info regarding fans running on the 42"s. Bugs the crap out of me...

RK

old_man

07-10-06, 03:58 PM

Sure wish someone would post their info regarding fans running on the 42"s. Bugs the crap out of me...

I have a 42" and the temps have got up to 85 here and the fans don't seem to have come on that I noticed but I have a ceiling fan on and the windows open so there is a draft.

I did notice the front of the panel felt hot occasionally. :o

sakaike

07-10-06, 07:27 PM

I would be interested to have other 50XR5A owners weigh in on this fan thing. I just got home and turned on the TV. Hasn't been on since yesterday. The fans came on immediately, as soon as the power was turned on and starting pumping out cool air. The room is relatively cool (mid-70s).

If there is a power/temperature management setting, either in the regular menu (I didn't see one immediately obvious), or one in the service menu, let me know. Personally, I don't see it as a problem, from a noise or energy consumption point of view. But if this is a symptom of something potentially more serious, then I would want to know ASAP.

TIA.

bvader

07-10-06, 07:50 PM

DigitalOBX

07-10-06, 08:22 PM

My XR50 is quiet as a mouse....never heard the fan to be an issue.

jsf2001

07-10-06, 09:25 PM

Another data point...

The fans on my 50XR5 are on continuously, from start-up to shut-down. And relatively speaking, they are noisy. In our family room, with the sound muted, I can hear the fans from 11 feet back on my sofa. When the sound is on, it is not noticeable, so I don't qualify it as a defect or even an annoyance, but it's definitely there.

And yes, the noise is definitely coming from the fans, not any other part of the panel, and the air it is pushing out is pretty warm, beginning within 15-30 minutes of start-up.

For what it is worth, fans on my Panasonic 65" 8UK run continuously, as well. But, they're not noticeable (although I haven't put my ear next to the panel with the sound turned off to check to see if I can hear them). I would consider fan noise to be a problem if you could hear the fans when you are watching TV or a DVD with the sound turned on.

unclebenny4140

07-11-06, 12:18 AM

Interesting. I had my mind pretty much set on the 50XR5A until reading muttt's experiences with NEC support. Definately enough to give me pause before dropping this much money on a panel.

tomcat211

07-11-06, 03:11 AM

Muttt,

Feel for you on the IR issue. I haven't had a "serious" problem with satellite on my XR5 but I'm only using the S-video until I switch to HDMI cable but with the OPPO player using HDMI for more than about a minute it will leave an IR bruise. I'm always careful about how long I leave a static picture onscreen no matter what input I use. The IR does eventually go away, I think, but if you can still see your image now after all you've done to get rid of it, I would also say keep the fight up. As far a fan noise, I'd actually forgotten that these things have fans. When I checked they were on but unless I muted everything on my HT and put my head behind the panel, I couldn't hear them at all. For those with the fan noise I would suspect that the blades are hitting something they aren't supposed to or they weren't installed as securelyl as they could've been. So much for "no panel variability through manufacturing". That's just not possible.

cpcat

07-11-06, 08:02 AM

Sorry Muttt. I don't know if this helps but I suspect if you continue to vary your programming over time as the panel continues to age this will fade. Whether it will disappear completely I don't know.

I am a little surprised at NEC's unwillingness to do anything given their good track record of CS. Technically, they're right, it's not covered but I don't think it's very common on these panels so they should replace yours for good PR IMO.

LisaM

07-11-06, 09:25 AM

Muttt: I still think that it is key for you to go to the top of the company in order to reach the management officials who are able to see "the bigger picture". Lower level customer service reps and even regional managers are often only able to follow the specific company rules and don't have the leeway to make a smart decision which will benefit the company in the long run. Find the name and address of the CEO, the head of Customer Relations, etc... for the entire company. Write them a letter and follow it up with a phone call a week later. The key is to get an audience with someone at NEC who has the wisdom to see that a replacement is in the best interests of the company - and who also has the power to make it happen.

tdavis21484

07-11-06, 12:03 PM

DAB

07-11-06, 12:17 PM

FAN NOISE
My 50xr5( purchased 12-23-05} is very very quite. I hear it if i place my ear on the back side-only, but the fans are moving. MY Comcast box is 15x louder and can hear it when i sand over it. also I have never had a issue w/IR. I have left the Comcast tv guide on for 15 min.( i walked away), when i came back to watch my station and i could see a very faint IR for --2min maybe_.then gone...
also , i just watched the origin Star trek TV series on regular standard TV channel and it looked great.... all most HD(lite).

db

muttt

07-11-06, 02:23 PM

mule65

07-11-06, 03:44 PM

...yes I see retention for maybe 5 min total, I switch to disovery for maybe 10 min and it's all gone.
oh I bet it is :rolleyes:

csundbom

07-11-06, 04:51 PM

Lisa, I'm planning to write a letter... just need to have some time to write it and then determine where it should be sent.

CpCat - thanks, and just to be clear, the burn-in is not "that bad"... but it's there. I am surprised at NEC's CS as well, especially because up to the actual point of doing something about it, they were responsive and pleasant. It is just surprising to be treated as if I have a run-of-the-mill problem when here in this thread there are at least 20 or 30 NEC owners, none of whom have experienced anythink like this.
muttt, don't feel bad. Burn-in is very common, and most plasmas have some if you take the time for look for it. My Panasonic has burn-in as well, despite all precautions I've taken. My take is that you cannot avoid burn-in unless you only watch stations with no logos, and who wants to watch Discovery HD all day? ;-) In my job as an ISF calibrator, almost all plasmas I've come across had burn-in to some degree.

That said, most burn-in is only visible when you put up an flat field of a single color (use red to check for red burn-in, green to check for green burn-in etc). Almost everyone that watches CNN on a plasma will have some red burn-in. In my initial years of owning plasmas, I went through the same mental anguish as you do, constantly checking for burn-in and panicking if something didn't go away in a couple of minutes. Now I've learned to accept the fact that's it's the nature of the beast. Anything based of phosphors will have potential for un-even wear (plasmas, CRT and SEDs when they come around). This will in no way detract me from buying another plasma (or SED, drool).

My CNN logo slowly faded away as the panel aged, and got replaced with another logo (Bravo I think it was, or ESPN). I don't worry about it anymore. As long as you can't see the burn-in when you are watching a program, why should it matter? I have 6 old NEC plasmas mounted in my office (my daytime job, and I didn't install them) that have been showing constant monitoring screens for almost 5 years (100% static content), and they all have severe burn-in (naturally). If you put up a regular TV show on any of these screens, it still looks great, with the burn-in barely visible.

Anyone that takes reasonable precautions (don't use your plasma as a PC monitor, stretch the 4x3 stuff, turn down contrast to reasonable levels) should not get any burn-in that will be visible with normal program content. They will however, most likely, get some, non-objectionable, uneven wear.

Also, like love lost, burn-in fades with time as the phosphor ages.

cirob

07-11-06, 05:41 PM

I came home one day and found the lg logo of my dvd player on, it's blue and says lg in the centre, it stayed on all day maybe 8 hrs, I panicked but surprisingly went away in maybe 10 min of watching discovery hd, totally gone maybe some display are more sensitive but how can it be they are all built the same.

mule65

07-11-06, 06:06 PM

Best to not say it, just think it.

tvbug

07-11-06, 06:15 PM

Best to not say it, just think it.

csundbom

07-11-06, 06:15 PM

Moderator, cleanup in aisle 5!

bvader

07-11-06, 06:24 PM

Sorry to change the subject, but I have a question you folks may be able to add some insight to:

My 42XR4 shows my SD stations off my HD cable box as having 720x240 resolution! Does anyone else have this happening on their set? I don't know whether Insight Digital is actually sending me such pitiful signal, or whether the NEC is misidentifying 480i as 240p (which I find doubtful).

Any input would be appreciated - I'm going to call my cable company and yell a lot if 240 is what they're really sending me! :mad:

Thanks.
I have seen 720x240 on my NEC XR50 ans TWC SA8300 HD. What makes you think that means 240p, I just assumed it it mean 720x240 for each frame, 2 frames equals 480i , but now you mention it its a good question. I will check when I get home... in a couple weeks... courios what others say.

What does 1080i report, and 720p report I wasn't sure how to tell the difference in the signal infor between "p" and "i"

Unclejeff

07-11-06, 10:27 PM

I have had my 50XM5 since late January and I must say that I notice no burn-in or IR. Before I got my Dish 622 Satellite box the older boxes used more black-on-white in instruction menus and it was cute watching the name of the song fade as it would bounce around when listening to the CD stations and watching the name of the group and label. When it changed to a blue background the fading went away. I do use the zoom feature, especially on HD and this blows away many logos. I use this plasma to watch lots of movies on stations without logos. Also, I do watch three hours of baseball, often four nights a week. I zoom the score off from the top of the screen and then I just get a few baseball statistics which are intermittant.

I could be lucky that I have a really good screen; my viewing habits could help. It might be that I ran the Discovery Channel for a solid week when I got the unit, 24 hours/day. Still, no burn-in or IR on my screen.

csundbom

07-11-06, 11:23 PM

I will try to attempt to explain the difference between IR and burn-in. Hopefully this will help a little bit in the discussion, and maybe it can even help people understand what they are seeing.

I all comes down to the nature of phosphor used to create the pixels of a plasma display. Phosphor generates light by glowing, and comes in three colors for video re-production: red, blue and green. Inside the plasma glass, there are three sub-pixels (one of each color) for every pixel the display has. The sub-pixels are encased in cubes that contain a gas. The front on the cube (the front of the screen) has the phosphor coating, and the rest of the cube is filled with gas. When a current is applied to the gas, it transforms into plasma, exciting the phosphor, causing it to glow.

When the phosphor gets very hot due to high current over a sustained period of time, two things happen:

1. After the current is cut and the plasma reverts to the gas stage, the phosphor will continue to glow. This can go on for minutes, and is what's normally referred to as IR or Image Rentention. It will leave a shadow image on the screen for a little while. Once the phosphor cools down, it will stop the "after-glow" and the sub-pixel will return to normal operation.

2. The phosphor will glow hotter, starting to "burn" faster. This will actually burn off some of the material, making the maximum light output for that sub-pixel lower than it was before. The pixel will be dimmer going forward.

The heat that the phosphor will glow at is determined by two factors: brightness/contrast settings and picture content.

A plasma panel is normally rated with a lifespan of 40,000 hours (or 20, or 60). This means that after 40,000 hours, half of the phosphor will have burned off, and the panel will be half as bright as it was initially. This assumes a 30% APL (average picture level) or so. Since each sub-pixel will burn a a different rate (depending on picture content), not all pixels will reach half brightness at the same time. This un-even wear is what's called "burn-in", and it's a normal thing. CRTs suffer from the same effect, but since the phosphor areas are normally larger (not contained in sub-pixel cubes), the effect it normally less pronounced.

Also, blue phosphor burns off much faster than red. When I calibrated my panel two years ago, I had to max out the red gain (+30) and lower the blue gain (-5). Now, I have red gain at 0 and blue gain at +15 to get the same D65 grayscale response as before. This is all a normal part of the way phosphor based displays work and age, and that's why regular calibration is a good idea if you want to maintain color accuracy.

Hope that was helpful.

Cleveland Plasma

07-11-06, 11:43 PM

^^^^ Very Nice

Cohall123

07-12-06, 12:46 PM

Hi All,

I'm sure this is covered to death in this thread, but I don't have time to read every post! I appologize in advance if this is redundant.

I recently started researching PDPs, for a new home. I need a flat panel to but above a hearth, due to the layout of the room.

I was originally considering Panasonic and Samsung Plasmas, as they are readily available locally, and are relatively reasonably priced. I don't like the look of the Panny bezel, so I was leaning toward the Samsung HP-S5053.

As I continued to research, I've uncovered this thread about the NEC 50XR5, and am intrigued. It seams like a great value for the money. Especially since people have mentioned that it compares favorably with the Pio Elite models, which are supposed to be the best. (from what I've read)

At current prices, this panel is just 3 or 4 hundred more that the Samsung. Should the NEC be a serious contender for me? I don't need a tuner, as I use a Digital Cable DVR. I don't need speakers, either. And I don't need a stand, as the unit will be wall mounted.

Can you all tell me how this panel would compare to the new Samsung model? As I don't think there are any NEC dealers local to me, I have no way to compare the NEC to the Samsung with my own eyes. Do any of you notice motion artifacts, pixeliztion, etc. Is the burn-in/Image Retention really as big a problem as the last few posts suggest?

Thanks a bunch for your thoughts!

sakaike

07-12-06, 01:06 PM

Welcome to the AVS Forum. I went through a similar evaluation process, starting a few years ago looking here for the cheapest plasma. Then I graduated to recognizing that going too cheap was like throwing your money away. So for a while I was obsessed with the Panny 50-8UK. Then like you, I found this thread, and never looked back.

Performance is indeed as advertised, and in my personal experience, IR, burn-in, macroblocking, and any other type of problems have not been an issue for me. I don't think you can go wrong with this panel, and although there are some posts from a few folks who have had a few problems, I think that overall, the general consensus of this board represents a reasonable expectation of what this panel is capable of.

Good luck with your decision.

CruelInventions

07-12-06, 01:26 PM

Is the burn-in/Image Retention really as big a problem as the last few posts suggest?

Thanks a bunch for your thoughts!

As a long-time occasional reader of this forum (but not yet a plasma owner), the recent postings by Carl Sundbom leaves me confused. My impressions have always been that burn-in, especially longer term or permanent burn-in and particularly as it relates to plasma panels made within the last few years, was an extremely extremely rare occurence.

There are many people using their plasmas in a repetitive manner (screen logos, computer monitors) with nary a problem with burn-in. Almost every time a newbie comes into the forum, they are re-assured that plasma "burn-in" is mostly a myth, unless your plasma is set to "torch mode" brightness and you are using the panel in an extremely repetitive way, and even then, you still stand a decent chance of never encountering a permanent burn-in problem.

suffice it to say, Carl's comments "Burn-in is very common, and most plasmas have some" throws me for a loop, given all that I've read here on this forum before, regardless of brand. I'm not sure how to reconcile the two. Perhaps as an experienced calibrator, he is able to pick up on things that very few others can see.

CruelInventions

07-12-06, 01:28 PM

Is the burn-in/Image Retention really as big a problem as the last few posts suggest?

Thanks a bunch for your thoughts!

As a long-time occasional reader of this forum (but not yet a plasma owner), the recent postings by Carl Sundbom leaves me confused. My impressions have always been that burn-in, especially longer term or permanent burn-in and particularly as it relates to plasma panels made within the last few years, was an extremely extremely rare occurence.

There are many people using their plasmas in a repetitive manner (screen logos, computer monitors) with nary a problem with burn-in. Almost every time a newbie comes into the forum, they are re-assured that plasma "burn-in" is mostly a myth, unless your plasma is set to "torch mode" brightness and you are using the panel in an extremely repetitive way, and even then, you still stand a decent chance of never encountering a permanent burn-in problem.

suffice it to say, Carl's comments in regards to how "Burn-in is very common, and most plasmas have some" throws me for a loop, given all that I've read here on this forum before, regardless of brand. I'm not sure how to reconcile the two. Perhaps as an experienced calibrator, he is able to pick up on things that very few others can see.

plazman

07-12-06, 01:40 PM

cpcat

07-12-06, 10:50 PM

Not sure where that's coming from as most who get the NEC and the Panny commercials don't see the panel before they buy it. :confused:

I think owner opinions are often much more reliable than those of reviewers'. Professional reviews need to be taken in context with consideration of commercial bias which is almost always involved at least to some extent.

Sure, see it if you can but don't let that deter you from considering it.

csundbom

07-12-06, 11:44 PM

suffice it to say, Carl's comments in regards to how "Burn-in is very common, and most plasmas have some" throws me for a loop, given all that I've read here on this forum before, regardless of brand. I'm not sure how to reconcile the two. Perhaps as an experienced calibrator, he is able to pick up on things that very few others can see.
Hi, CruelInventions

My comments were not meant to discourage anyone from buying a NEC (or any other plasma). All technologies have their pros and cons (motion trails/poor blacks on LCDs, rainbows on DLPs, irregular color blobs on LCOS, burn-in on CRTs and Plasmas etc). I would very much recommend that you consider a plasma and you should be able to watch it without worries. My post was an attempt to explain how the technology works and what to expect. I really don't think "burn-in" that not visible without pulling up special test fields should be something to be concerned about. If this was the case, CRT displays would never have taken off, and there would be no television today. A TV is a consumer product, just like a car, loudspeaker or printer. It will have a limited lifespan and it will change behaviour as it gets older. I'm just telling you what happens to a plasma when it ages, and what factors can cause it to age in a un-even way. I'm sure the picture will be great, and you will enjoy it for many years to come. Trying to find a display without faults will condemn you to never watch TV again.

JG1

07-12-06, 11:55 PM

Guys quick question. It may have been answered in this thread but I can't find it.

Wiring from an HD cable box to the XR5A, will I get a better picture using HDMI or component?

tdavis21484

07-12-06, 11:58 PM

I have seen 720x240 on my NEC XR50 ans TWC SA8300 HD. What makes you think that means 240p, I just assumed it it mean 720x240 for each frame, 2 frames equals 480i , but now you mention it its a good question. I will check when I get home... in a couple weeks... courios what others say.

What does 1080i report, and 720p report I wasn't sure how to tell the difference in the signal infor between "p" and "i"

The 240p theory was offered up by someone in a thread in the Digital Cable area.

1080i reports as 1080i, so that's why I doubt that the panel is reporting 480i as 240p. And the picture is simply very poor on my SD channels, bad enough to make me believe it really could be 240 lines coming across.

big_marcelo

07-13-06, 01:15 AM

Guys quick question. It may have been answered in this thread but I can't find it.

Wiring from an HD cable box to the XR5A, will I get a better picture using HDMI or component?

technically speaking, HDMI is a better option - however this isn't always so in practice.

Make sure your cable box has the option to passthrough the 'native' resolution of the signal via HDMI, ie: 720p from a 720p channel, 1080i from a 1080i channel, 480i from a 480i ... you would want to avoid the HD box doing any scaling with the signal before it reaches the panel.

another point to note is, with component cables, since its an analogue signal, make sure the cable is well proctected against interference and is of decent quality ... with digital cables and short runs (5 feet and under), quality is less of a factor.....

good component and HDMI should be very similar in theory.... in practice it can vary a lot.... see if you could test both, and return the cable with the lesser PQ ...

my experience with a 42XR4 was that HDMI produced better results coming from a Denon 3910 DVD player.....

muttt

07-13-06, 08:05 AM

I really don't think "burn-in" that not visible without pulling up special test fields should be something to be concerned about.
Carl,
Thanks for all the informative posts. I just wanted to clarify my burn-in issue. In most instances it cannot be seen, but the burn-in is noticeable whenever a reasonably solid image (e.g., a solid shirt or grass on the World Cup fields) is in the lower righthand corner of the screen.

Considering it resulted from 30 or 40 minutes of use on low contrast levels, that concerns me.

mule65

07-13-06, 10:14 AM

Anyone that takes reasonable precautions (don't use your plasma as a PC monitor, stretch the 4x3 stuff, turn down contrast to reasonable levels) should not get any burn-in that will be visible with normal program content. They will however, most likely, get some, non-objectionable, uneven wear.
Pretty convincing evidence that PC and gamers should not consider plasma. :( :mad:

dark1x

07-13-06, 10:17 AM

Pretty convincing evidence that PC and gamers should not consider plasma. :( :mad:
Depends on the glass...

The panasonic glass used in my Toshiba 42HPX95 could take hours of static images without any side effects.

I just upgraded to a Pioneer, however, and it does not seem to have the long life options. I haven't encountered anything yet, but I haven't really played anything for a significant amount of time. I fear that the panel may be a lot more sensitive. I guess we'll find out...

csundbom

07-13-06, 10:27 AM

Carl,
Thanks for all the informative posts. I just wanted to clarify my burn-in issue. In most instances it cannot be seen, but the burn-in is noticeable whenever a reasonably solid image (e.g., a solid shirt or grass on the World Cup fields) is in the lower righthand corner of the screen.

Considering it resulted from 30 or 40 minutes of use on low contrast levels, that concerns me.
That sounds like an extreme case, but it will probably fade away over the next few months as the surrounding phosphor gets more use.

plazman

07-13-06, 10:45 AM

Pretty convincing evidence that PC and gamers should not consider plasma. :( :mad:

FWIW last month I was watching a solid 6 hours a day of soccer with the score ticker and logos on top with no IR or burn in on my Panny....

muttt

07-13-06, 12:14 PM

From your lips to my plasma's ears, I hope... :)

bvader

07-13-06, 12:58 PM

The 240p theory was offered up by someone in a thread in the Digital Cable area.

1080i reports as 1080i, so that's why I doubt that the panel is reporting 480i as 240p. And the picture is simply very poor on my SD channels, bad enough to make me believe it really could be 240 lines coming across.

I have some SD channels that are really bad and others that are pretty good I will check when I get a chance.

jvincent

07-13-06, 01:08 PM

Pretty convincing evidence that PC and gamers should not consider plasma. :( :mad:

My 61XR4 logs as much time on the Xbox 360 and 4:3 stations as it does 16:9 HD. No issues with burn in or IR here.

aranganath

07-13-06, 02:03 PM

This is totally subjective, but I think that blue things cause more IR than other colors. On my HD-TiVo, the DirecTV local is the only blue thing on the screen, and when I switch to a black screen, it is the only screen element that lingers after a few seconds. This is despite the white borders and lettering that are also on the same screen.

I guess this is possible since there are three phosphors at every pixel. Has anyone noticed this also?

khs1

07-14-06, 09:01 AM

I am relatively new to the forum and have been following this thread for a while. I have all but decided that the 50xr5 is the choice for me but have noticed the various experiences with image retention. Some of you have little or no issues while with others it is a more serious problem.

The specifications on the NEC refers to the AccuShield Phosphor Protection system. Is this something that is always on or is it set by the user? I was just wondering if some of you who have less issues with image retention might have this system set up differently than those who have greater issues.

Thank you all. This is a great thread and seems much more technically oriented than some dealing with other brands.

BOSS10L

07-14-06, 09:04 AM

All of this is subjective, it differs from owner to owner and panel to panel IMO. I'll be the first to admit that my XR5 will get IR pretty easily on some sources, but by the same token, it's gone within a very short time.

Anyone who is afraid of IR shouldn't be looking at plasmas IMHO.

I've already decided that I'll be investing in an LCD (possibly DLP) projector to do a majority of the movie/gaming/sports watching, with the XR5 relegated to "normal" TV viewing and SD movies for the wife/kids when I'm not home.

BOSS10L

07-14-06, 09:08 AM

AceMT

07-16-06, 01:40 AM

Just received my 50XR5a and haven't even turned it on yet. As I am not able to get Dish out to the house 4 a while, I would like to enjoy the plasma and check it out to make sure eveything works.

I am looking for recommendations for a DVD player. I will eventually buy a PS3, so blueray/HdHVD are not something I want to spend money on now. I would just like something that produces a stunning image on the NEC, I don't care about all the other bells and whistles. Do I need an upconverting player as the NEC supposedly has a pretty good scaler, or should I just but a tranport DVD like the newer oppo with 480i passthrough?

Thanks to CHris at CLEVELAND Plasma for getting my tv to me quickly and safely, and at a good price.

Mark

sakaike

07-16-06, 03:04 AM

AceMT

07-16-06, 10:49 AM

Thanks Sakaike,

Sounds like you've done some thorough testing!

Mark

sakaike

07-16-06, 12:17 PM

The results are posted here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7962776&&#post7962776

D-Man66

07-17-06, 10:28 PM

volusiacat

07-17-06, 11:01 PM

I have decided to go with the 42xr4 but need to add some speakers. I was wanting some opinions from folks who had put the silver NEC speakers on these units versus the black. Most likely it will be wall mounted if that makes a difference. Any help is appreciated.
Kevin

Cleveland Plasma

07-17-06, 11:17 PM

^^^^ The black speakers will look better without a dought, not so distracting. I think this pic looks pretty good.
http://www.clevelandplasma.com/cms_files/Image/NEC with stand 2.jpg

Cleveland Plasma

07-17-06, 11:20 PM

aranganath

07-18-06, 12:55 AM

Deciding on my first plasma between Panny 50 8UK and Nec 50xr5. I get the impression on these forums that I can't go wrong with either of these. I'm currently leaning towards the NEC for it's extra inputs, 2:35 stretch mode, ability to change aspect on HD, and I like the styling a bit better. But the Panasonic seems to have better blacks and the there doesn't seem too many owners compaining about IR.

I have a question for you NEC owners - do you use 2:35 mode for watching movies? There is a lot of talk about stretching 4:3 material, but not much mention of stretching 2:35 movies - since 70% of my movies are 2:35 or 2:40 this would seem like a good thing to prevent IR.

It's very hard to look at this thread and see any conclusive opinion on the IR. In my personal experience, it is the only weakness of this panel. When I'm in the TiVo menus and I start a show, the DirecTV logo is retained in the upper right hand corner. Do I notice it? Yes, nearly everytime. Does it bother me? If whatever I'm watching starts off with a dark scene, then it can be a little distracting, but it's gone in a minute.

The stretch modes for HD are really nice. I generally use the stadium stretch for 4:3 content on HD channels (the last season of Scrubs, for example). The 2.35 zoom mode is rarely used though by me, though. I can't bring myself to lose that much of the picture, and with DVDs, the picture quality can get pretty fuzzy. Although, my brand spanking new HD-DVD player can do the 2.35 zoom with excellent resolution.

So back to the IR, after watching a 2:35 movie, there are very obvious stripes on the top and bottom of the screen for awhile, but they go away. Generally, after I watch a movie, I'm done watching TV, so I just switch it to HDNet, and whenever I come back, things are back to normal. Another option is to use the "Inverse" option in the PDP saver which inverts all the colors and just play the movie back for awhile, which will quickly get things back to normal.

If you read back earlier in this thread, my plasma got what I think is the 2nd worst torture test (Internet Explorer guy from this last week definitely wins 1st place). My wife paused the television during Saturday Night Live within the first 100 hours of having the plasma and went to sleep. Needless to say, when I woke up and saw what happened I completely flipped out. I flipped to HDNet, turned on the screen wiper, and left it. After coming back to check on it in a few hours, all was well.

I'd be disappointed with the purchase if I felt like there were things I couldn't do for the sake of the panel. It's kind of a blessing that I had that experience early, as I'm not walking on eggshells with the plasma anymore. I've got my Gamecube and Xbox360 hooked up and play hours of Donkey Konga, which is pretty much one big static screen except for two small lines of scrolling symbols. I get some IR, but leave the TV on, and it's gone.

From what I've read about the 8UK, IR is pretty much a non-issue, so it definitely wins in that regard. The scaler in the 8UK, however, can't touch the 50xr5 in my opinion. The 50xr5 has an incredibly sharp picture while the Panny plasmas I've seen all look like they just don't have the same resolution. That combined with the excellent color balance of the 50xr5 out of the box, and I chose the 50xr5. It requires a little TLC, but for me, image quality is king, and it definitely wins there.

Another nice plus is the 8UK can't get near as many inputs as the NEC. I've got my TiVo and HD-DVD hooked up over HDMI, my Macbook on VGA, Gamecube and 360 on component, and my receiver on S-video. The 8uk would require some sort of switching solution to do that.

So basically, if you don't mind a little maintainance, the 50xr5 is the way to go. If you just want to think, get the 8UK.

I hope this helps, but it probably just makes it more confusing.

tomcat211

07-19-06, 01:25 AM

I recommend the Oppo 971 over the 970. In running the HQV Benchmark against both players at all output resolutions into my 50XR5A, I found the performance best at 720p on the 971. This was not what I was expecting.

I had also bought into the prevailing wisdom that the deinterlacer and scaler in the NEC was top of the line (and was thus expecting the 970 at 480i to perform the best). According to my tests, the NEC scaler appears to be very good, but the deinterlacer is not as good as the Faroudja in the Opp 971.
How do you get around using the scaler in the xr50 and use what's available in the OPPO?Can you bypass the scaler? Am I correct in assuming that the xr5 takes whaterver is fed into it (480p thru 1080i) and scales it to 768p?

wblynch

07-19-06, 02:28 AM

Keep in mind that NEC are computer monitors first and foremost. That's why they have the greatest flexibility of synch modes and features.

Their anti-burn in options are unparalleled and I have not seen another manufacturer that offers the timers and schedulers that NEC has. No one else has the zoom button.

People make too big a deal about absolute black levels to the point that they miss out on the color representation and crispness of the NEC picture.

Think of it this way... you can nitpick features and specifications to death or make your life simple and buy an NEC and never regret the decision.

My NEC 42 XM2a is nearly 4 years old with over 12,000 hours on it and it's still as beautiful as the first day we got it. And I still haven't seen another brand that can match it.

cpcat

07-19-06, 08:02 AM

How do you get around using the scaler in the xr50 and use what's available in the OPPO?Can you bypass the scaler? Am I correct in assuming that the xr5 takes whaterver is fed into it (480p thru 1080i) and scales it to 768p?

You can't bypass the internal scaler completely unless you feed native resolution (1365 x 768p). The closest thing out of the oppo is 720p.

sakaike

07-19-06, 11:26 AM

How do you get around using the scaler in the xr50 and use what's available in the OPPO?Can you bypass the scaler? Am I correct in assuming that the xr5 takes whaterver is fed into it (480p thru 1080i) and scales it to 768p?
Not to be nit-picky, but the NEC will take whatever is fed to it and will process, deinterlace and scale as required (not necessarily in that order) to output to the screen's native resolution of 1365 x 768.

My personal testing (and I admit I'm an amateur) revealed a lower score for 1080i. My conclusion was that this was due to the fact that the Oppo was sending an interlaced signal to the NEC, and that the NEC was doing a poorer job of both deinterlacing and scaling this signal than when the Oppo did the deinterlacing, and sent the NEC a progressive scan signal that only had to be scaled to the NEC's native resolution.

You cannot bypass the scaler in the NEC using an Oppo. The only way to do something like that is to use a outboard video processor between the Oppo and NEC that can output a signal at the NEC's native resolution. Some folks on this board have done this and concluded (surprisingly) that their was no improvement in PQ, and thus their expensive processor had to find another use (probably in another room in the house). If you want to go this route, it is highly recommended that you use the 970 instead of the 971, since you can take advantage of the pure digital transport capabilities of the 970 by outputting 480i over HDMI.

Hope that helps clarify things.
Kelvin

cpcat

07-19-06, 12:46 PM

You cannot bypass the scaler in the NEC using an Oppo. The only way to do something like that is to use a outboard video processor between the Oppo and NEC that can output a signal at the NEC's native resolution. Some folks on this board have done this and concluded (surprisingly) that their was no improvement in PQ, and thus their expensive processor had to find another use (probably in another room in the house). If you want to go this route, it is highly recommended that you use the 970 instead of the 971, since you can take advantage of the pure digital transport capabilities of the 970 by outputting 480i over HDMI.

Hope that helps clarify things.
Kelvin

Excellent, Grasshoppa. :) :)

sakaike

07-19-06, 02:51 PM

Excellent, Grasshoppa. :) :)

Thank you Sensei... ;)

P.S. On a separate topic, cpcat, if you have further refined any of your NEC settings, please post them in the settings thread. I'm using your latest settings as my primary viewing setting. My attempts with Avia and DVE have yielded different, less satisfying results (too green with Avia and too blue with DVE), so I no longer trust my eyes when it comes to these tools. Eventually I will probably get an ISF calibration, but any tweaks I can do in the meantime would be helpful. TIA...

haveoneolboy

07-19-06, 03:17 PM

I finally took some pictures of my setup after completion. I have the NEC XM5A and after tweaking it for a month the picture is breathtaking. I couldn't ask for a better picture. The color reproduction is amazing. I'll take some closer screen shots in the next few days.

http://www.glowracks.com/1811.jpg
http://www.glowracks.com/1812.jpg
http://www.glowracks.com/1813.jpg

Cleveland Plasma

07-19-06, 03:43 PM

^^^^ Nice setup !!

Unclejeff

07-19-06, 08:46 PM

haveoneolboy;

wow...I am in still in the middle of a re-model and my 50XM5 is mounted on a bunch of bare studs. Looks a lot like something from a Batman Flick with cables and a pair of tube amps, etc. I envy your set-up!

Ticotva

07-19-06, 08:59 PM

Nice Pictures! you should be a professional photographer

JG1

07-19-06, 10:41 PM

Just wanted to give a big thumbs up to Chris at Cleveland Plasma. Great price, great service. I just setup my XR5A today and couldn't get a signal to the display. Chris called me at 10pm to walk me threw it and get me setup properly.

itigap

07-19-06, 11:10 PM

Weuuuuu ……………. I can’t believe I read the whole thing! 3581 posts :eek: less the HTPC stuff I kind of just skipped over.

I would just like to take a moment to thank everyone on this forum for their generosity in giving their time to post so much useful information here. This is a tremendous way to gain knowledge; a tremendous indoctrination into the world of plasma and in particular all things NEC. I am grateful to you all.

A special thanks to cpcat because I had originally planned to get a Lumagen processor along with my first plasma (thought I might as well dive right in for the sake of PQ). I now believe that with a NEC I can forego that component. Yea! :o (Maybe some day in the future a Realta based processor. Who knows? Probably when I get a 1080p display. :D :D :D Gotta always be looking forward to new toys. :p )

Question:

After finishing the thread, I do have an observation with a related question. With the exception of perhaps one person that I can remember, no one has claimed to have had an ISF calibration on their NEC display. Also there is little discussion or even mention of ISF calibration within this thread. I was a bit surprised and wish some of you would weigh in with your opinions on this subject. I have no position on this subject because I am still forming an opinion and so would like to hear from as many of you as care to answer.

Cheers, :)

Gary

Cleveland Plasma

07-19-06, 11:46 PM

I have to congratulate you for reading all of this.

tomcat211

07-19-06, 11:50 PM

Not to be nit-picky, but the NEC will take whatever is fed to it and will process, deinterlace and scale as required (not necessarily in that order) to output to the screen's native resolution of 1365 x 768.

My personal testing (and I admit I'm an amateur) revealed a lower score for 1080i. My conclusion was that this was due to the fact that the Oppo was sending an interlaced signal to the NEC, and that the NEC was doing a poorer job of both deinterlacing and scaling this signal than when the Oppo did the deinterlacing, and sent the NEC a progressive scan signal that only had to be scaled to the NEC's native resolution.

You cannot bypass the scaler in the NEC using an Oppo. The only way to do something like that is to use a outboard video processor between the Oppo and NEC that can output a signal at the NEC's native resolution. Some folks on this board have done this and concluded (surprisingly) that their was no improvement in PQ, and thus their expensive processor had to find another use (probably in another room in the house). If you want to go this route, it is highly recommended that you use the 970 instead of the 971, since you can take advantage of the pure digital transport capabilities of the 970 by outputting 480i over HDMI.

Hope that helps clarify things.
Kelvin
Kelvin,

Clarifies them somewhat. I'm having the same discussion with NEC support. Wouldn't a 720p from the Oppo ussing DVI-HDMI be easier for the NEC than sending a 480I signal via HDMI that it still has to deinterlace? If not what's so good about using 480I over HDMI?

johnteeee

07-20-06, 04:29 AM

soncomet

07-20-06, 05:52 AM

Hi guys
My set (PX-50XR5A) is being delivered on friday and also on the same day the
set will be ISF Caliberated.
My question is : Do I need to do any Break-in period on this set? If yes, can U
please tell me the details.

Thanx for all the great info you guys......................................John
I think that you are supposed to wait 100-150 hours before calibrating because the phosphor age so quickly in the begining and so the calibration won't hold for as long without proper break-in. The isf guys on this forum always recommend having break-in done first, so maybe you can reschedule or something?

big_marcelo

07-20-06, 05:54 AM

Hi guys
My set (PX-50XR5A) is being delivered on friday and also on the same day the
set will be ISF Caliberated.
My question is : Do I need to do any Break-in period on this set? If yes, can U
please tell me the details.

Thanx for all the great info you guys......................................John

ideally you should have at least 100/200 hours on the set before getting it calibrated, since it would give the phosphors time to 'settle down' ....

I will be waiting to have at least 400 hours on mine.

big_marcelo

07-20-06, 06:13 AM

Not to be nit-picky, but the NEC will take whatever is fed to it and will process, deinterlace and scale as required (not necessarily in that order) to output to the screen's native resolution of 1365 x 768.

My personal testing (and I admit I'm an amateur) revealed a lower score for 1080i. My conclusion was that this was due to the fact that the Oppo was sending an interlaced signal to the NEC, and that the NEC was doing a poorer job of both deinterlacing and scaling this signal than when the Oppo did the deinterlacing, and sent the NEC a progressive scan signal that only had to be scaled to the NEC's native resolution.

You cannot bypass the scaler in the NEC using an Oppo. The only way to do something like that is to use a outboard video processor between the Oppo and NEC that can output a signal at the NEC's native resolution. Some folks on this board have done this and concluded (surprisingly) that their was no improvement in PQ, and thus their expensive processor had to find another use (probably in another room in the house). If you want to go this route, it is highly recommended that you use the 970 instead of the 971, since you can take advantage of the pure digital transport capabilities of the 970 by outputting 480i over HDMI.

Hope that helps clarify things.
Kelvin

it could also be that the 480i source is being interlaced into 480p, then scaled to 1080p, then reinterlaced into 1080i - sent from oppo to the plasma - then deinterlaced (again) into 1080p by the plasma, then scaled into 768p .... that's a lot of manipulation of the signal ...

720p should be a better format since it only goes trough deinterlacing process once.... albeit it goes through scaling twice (720p within oppo, then 720p to 768p in the panel)...... so perhaps even trying 480p should be worth a try ..... since then the signal would be only deinterlaced once and scaled once....

tony17

07-20-06, 08:43 AM

Question:

After finishing the thread, I do have an observation with a related question. With the exception of perhaps one person that I can remember, no one has claimed to have had an ISF calibration on their NEC display. Also there is little discussion or even mention of ISF calibration within this thread. I was a bit surprised and wish some of you would weigh in with your opinions on this subject. I have no position on this subject because I am still forming an opinion and so would like to hear from as many of you as care to answer.

Cheers, :)

Gary

Yes, I have to give you props for reading the whole thread as well.....that's pretty impressive. As far as ISF'ing goes, I am one of the folks who've had it done on my XR5. Opinions will vary on this subject, but I must say I couldn't be happier with the results. The much more realistic look of skintones and increase in shadow detail are the two most noticeable improvements. Just make sure you have it done by someone who knows what they are doing.

Hi guys
My set (PX-50XR5A) is being delivered on friday and also on the same day the
set will be ISF Caliberated.
My question is : Do I need to do any Break-in period on this set? If yes, can U
please tell me the details.

Thanx for all the great info you guys......................................John

John, as most have said, it would be best to wait until you have at least 100/200 hours on the set. In my opinion, I would wait until about a 1,000 (which I actually did). Also, make sure that you have it done by someone who really knows their stuff, which no offense, but it doesn't sound like the guy you have lined up does, if he is willing to calibrate your display on the day you receive it.

I would at least postpone it if you could. Good luck!

nhbob

07-20-06, 09:29 AM

tony17

07-20-06, 09:46 AM

Is there anyone out there who has ED versions of the NEC? How close do you sit? How happy are you with it? Would you buy again or spend the additional 1K for HD?

The ED versions are apparently a "generation" behind residential versions. Does anyone know if the differences make any real improvement?

There is a dedicated thread for these panels which you may want to read.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=490767

I actually have a 42" ED and the 50XR5. I view from about 11 feet on the ED and have to say it is every bit as good as the XR5 from that distance. There is no other ED panel I've seen besides the Fujitsu that can compare. The ONLY thing that I would like to have on the ED that is on the new 42XR4 is the Stadium stretch mode on HD channels. You can use the 2.35:1 and Zoom on the HD channels, but not the stadium. Not a big deal at all, it is just that the stadium stretch more nicely stretches 4:3 material being displayed on HD channels. Now, I am sure this is about 2% of your viewing, so don't think that would be worth $1,000. Other things to consider would be 2 HDMI inputs vs. 1 DVI input and warranty, if you go with the VM5 vs. VR5.

BOSS10L

07-20-06, 10:19 AM

I have to congratulate you for reading all of this.

Yeah, congrats are definitely in order. Or was that condolences.... :D

That being said...

No ISF for me Gary. IMHO, my XR5 looked fine right out of the box, only making a few minor tweaks using cpcat's settings. :cool:

sakaike

07-20-06, 11:47 AM

Kelvin,

Clarifies them somewhat. I'm having the same discussion with NEC support. Wouldn't a 720p from the Oppo ussing DVI-HDMI be easier for the NEC than sending a 480I signal via HDMI that it still has to deinterlace? If not what's so good about using 480I over HDMI?

I believe you're absolutely correct. That's why I'm feeding 720p from my Oppo 971 to my NEC. The NEC then only has to scale from 720p to 768p, and yes, this is easier, since it can then bypass the deinterlacing step entirely (although I don't have a clue as to how this actually works with the NEC electronics).

What is so good about 480i over HDMI is that if the deinterlacer and/or scaler in your TV is better than what's in the DVD player, then you might be able to get better PQ with this configuration. I believe that many Fujitsu panel owners go this route, based on the common wisdom that the electronics in their panels are superior to the Oppo. Also, some Pio Elite owners use the Oppo at 480i fed into an external video processor, then use their Pure mode capability in their panel to accept a native resolution signal from their video processor.

My experience with the NEC is that for us, 720p over HDMI using the Oppo 971 produced the best picture (compared to the Oppo 970 at any output resolution).

sakaike

07-20-06, 11:54 AM

it could also be that the 480i source is being interlaced into 480p, then scaled to 1080p, then reinterlaced into 1080i - sent from oppo to the plasma - then deinterlaced (again) into 1080p by the plasma, then scaled into 768p .... that's a lot of manipulation of the signal ...

720p should be a better format since it only goes trough deinterlacing process once.... albeit it goes through scaling twice (720p within oppo, then 720p to 768p in the panel)...... so perhaps even trying 480p should be worth a try ..... since then the signal would be only deinterlaced once and scaled once....

I think you're correct about the extra processing steps resulting in poorer performance, although it would take an engineer with knowledge of how both the Oppo and NEC deal with different desired inputs and outputs to tell us how each desired output signal from the Oppo and input signal into the NEC is processed.

I did indeed perform a comparison of all DVI/HDMI outputs for the 970 and 971. The results are posted here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7962776&&#post7962776

Based on those results, I now feed 720p from the Oppo 971 into the NEC and can put that part of my theater settings to bed.

DAB

07-20-06, 12:12 PM

itigap

07-20-06, 12:49 PM

Yes, I have to give you props for reading the whole thread as well.....that's pretty impressive. As far as ISF'ing goes, I am one of the folks who've had it done on my XR5. Opinions will vary on this subject, but I must say I couldn't be happier with the results. The much more realistic look of skintones and increase in shadow detail are the two most noticeable improvements. Just make sure you have it done by someone who knows what they are doing.

Thanks Tony. Actually you are the one person I was refereing to in my original question that I remembered had posted about ISF of their XR5. The particular results you received seem well worth the calibration. Congratulations for finding such a fine calibrator.

When you have a chance, could you possibly post some screen shots preferably w/o flash to illustrate the skin tones and shadow detail. For me, these are certainly two important qualitative characteristics of PQ.

Cheers,

Gary

sakaike

07-20-06, 03:12 PM

Intersting, Oppo 970>xr5>HDMI , I am having a hard time seeing a difference PQ, between 480i and 720p. with my set up. The PQ for both is excellent.Is there one dvd movie scence that i could use to get a"definitive comparison?" I have reviewed SAkIAKE, setting.
& know SAK- has the 971- he also knows the 970 aslo}
db
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to pin down a movie that definitively demonstrates any differences. That was the purpose of running the HQV torture tests. I originally purchased the 970 and was using 480i over HDMI, then for the heck of it, I purchased the HQV disk and the 971. After testing, I returned the 970 and now use the 971 at 720p over DVI/HDMI.

During viewing, the closest I could get to a real-world difference was LOTR/TTT. In the beginning of this disk, when Sam and Frodo are descending into Emyn Muil (yeah, I'm kind of a Tolkien dork), I perceived a greater sense of depth and detail to the picture. However, I place a huge caveat on this observation. I'm no videophile, and my eyes may be telling me what I want them to. That's why I much prefer the more objective results from the HQV DVD.

For me, the results of the HQV testing drove my Oppo decision - not anything I saw on any particular movie. Both players looked great to my eyes - and much better than the Panasonic DMR-ES10 DVD recorder that has now been relegated to the bedroom.

muttt

07-21-06, 07:56 AM

FWIW, I found 720p to be the best for my 42XR4A w/ the Oppo as well.

I don't have the HQV disc, so my wife and I ran a blind test:

On a few scenes in the Fifth Element, I had her choose a random format (480p, 720p, 1080i) and let it play. I had her do it 6 times for each scene, with 2 instances of each format in each test, in any order she wanted.

Then I switched the roles and had her trying to decide which was best, again blind (as if she knows what they mean anyway ;) ).

I picked 720p 1st and 2nd of 6. She picked it 1st and 3rd. And I consider neither of us videophiles. They all looked great, though!

tomcat211

07-21-06, 09:05 AM

tomcat211

07-21-06, 10:57 AM

WHEW!!!

That was a lot of info. I've been having this same discussion on signals and scalers with the folks at NEC support. Big props to Akhtar! Apparently not all signals are created equal. The key is timing. The NEC will treat two 720p signals differently if their frequencies are not the same. Here's how it's supposed to work. Let me caveat this by first saying I have not tried this yet as I am in the middle of moving across the country and will not have my HT rebuilt until late next week at the earliest. Hopefully you, my friends, can verify this and inform all of us

A signal comes into the NEC from some source, DVD, STB, Scaler, etc. If the signal is 768p @60Hz, no problem, that's what you see because that is the native rez of the display. But what if it's 768p but not at 60hz or not 768p at all ? Good question. Now the NEC has to search it's database of supported resolutions to find the closest match. Will that still be a 768p? It's kinda yes and no. Depending on what frequency it locks onto you will ether be missing a few lines or have a few more lines both of which you wont see. How do know what I'm seeing? Another good question. Check the information page on the menu. At the bottom there will be a line that says either Memory(for PC input signal) or Mode( for any other device) That number should correspond to resolution you are seeing on the display. Now break out the Model Manual. On page EN-(English)-3 is the table of Support resolutions. Look for the Memory/Mode number on the right and scroll to the left to the Dots X Lines column. That should tell you what are or aren't seeing. You should be able to verify further with the next two columns of Horizontal and Vertical frequencies. You'll notice that there is not an exact 1365 X 768 match. I guess that if the NEC has to do any work in modifying the signal there will be some gain or loss. However, it appears that any gain or loss is minimal. Akhtar did confirm that a 720p signal would be the best signal to send the NEC if there is any scaling to be done and as long as there is no overall standard signal for broadcasts and playback, resolution and frequency, that this will still be an inexact science. Let me know what you folks find out.

As I said in the beginning, this is what NEC passed onto to me and I have not had a chance to verify any of this yet but I wanted to get this out before it became an old topic.

Oh also on page EN-2 of you Model Manual are two tables showing the supported signals through DVD and HDMI. IF you have anyway of manipulating your device to output at those frequencies you should get a good picture. Bottom line from NEC, it's all in the timing, if your timings right you're picture is tight! Good Day, and Good Luck.

itigap

07-21-06, 11:08 AM

Posted by tomcat211

"if your timings right you're picture is tight!"

Woa....... I like it! :)

P.S. Who is going to begin producing the T-shirts?

Unclejeff

07-22-06, 10:46 AM

Tomcat, Thanks for the information. I printed it so as not to lose it in this thread; it does pay to keep logging into here as you post was interesting. You might also repeat it in the tweak thread.

mfogarty5

07-23-06, 01:47 AM

I have actually read this thread frm beginning to end as well.

I am going back and forth between the 42XR4 and the Samsung 4095D LCD. I prefer plasma, but my wife prefers LCD. We actually had decided on the LCD because we have a glare issue, but my wife soved that problem today by getting some drapes. Now the 42XR4 becomes a viabe option again. :)

What has really drawn me to the NEC is the scaler that everyone here raves about. I am really concerned about the Samsung's ability to scale different types of signals, especially 480i.

The reason I am looking at the 42" NEC and 40" Samsing is that we would like to use our existing entertainment center until we move in a year or two which brings me to my question. Can someone tell me how far the screen of the 42XR4 is from the front of the PX-ST2U stand? I have found documentation that the depth of the stand is about 12", but I can't find how much of that is in front of the screen and how much is behind.

Are there any other stands that look as nice, but have a smaller distance between the front of the stand and the front of the screen?

I am trying to figure out how far back the tv would sit in the entertainment center.

Any help is appreciated.

big_marcelo

07-23-06, 04:17 AM

AceMT

07-23-06, 11:15 AM

Hi All,

I purchesed my NEC 50XR5A a few weeks ago and thought I would post my initial impression before any tweeking. First off, I will tell you that it is a little hard for me to be wowed as I am coming from a Fujitsu 55" that I was forced to sell with my house but couldn't quite afford to buy another one as it costs about twice as much as the NEC. With that being said, for the money this panel is pretty amazing. My first WOW was watching Shrek 2 on HBOHD. The picture was about as close to 3D as I could imagine. I had actually watched this movie several times, but was so amazed by the picture that I sat through it again.

While I don't think Discovery channel or some of the other HD channels are quite as stunning on the NEC as the Fujitsu, they are still very good. From my Oppo dvd (971), movie quality is good. Again, not quite on par with the Fujitsu, but for the price difference, it is superb. The only real problem I have noticed is motion blur on scenes with fast moving action. I have NOT noticed any IR, but I am not using it for games yet.

Overall, so far, I would say this is a great plasma for the price. Are there better? Certainly Yes, but for a lot more money. I will post more after some serious tweeking.

Mark

Gruntenstein

07-24-06, 09:14 AM

tony17

07-24-06, 09:16 AM

I read most of this thread but have not found an answer to this question.
Looking at the 50xr5 manual, I see that the connections are on the right side of the panel (when looking from the front). If I use the panel with a stand, is there a way to hide the cables behind the stand so they are not visible from the front?

Thanks.

You cannot see the cables from the front as they are recessed. And if you are worried about seeing them from the side, they make a small cover that conceals them from the side as well.

dlconner

07-24-06, 09:53 AM

I read most of this thread but have not found an answer to this question.
Looking at the 50xr5 manual, I see that the connections are on the right side of the panel (when looking from the front). If I use the panel with a stand, is there a way to hide the cables behind the stand so they are not visible from the front?

Thanks.

There are a few posts in there about hiding the cables, but it is easy to get lost in such a big thread. There is a NEC side cover that you can purchase, (cant remember the price, check forum sponsors a few have it), that will conceal the cables behind it, up against the panel.

Dustin

Gruntenstein

07-27-06, 11:46 AM

Thanks for the replies. I have another question.
I read several posts about OTA HD channels beings sent to the 50XR5A
(I remember UncleJeff mentioning it).
Since the display is a monitor only, how does that work?
Don't you need a tuner to be able to do this?
If yes, what is a good external tv tuner?

Thanks,

Hans.

davjo69

07-27-06, 04:48 PM

Just received my new NEC 42XR4 from Chris at Cleveland Plasma. Wanted to let you guys know how easy and pleasant he made my buying experience. Had originally ordered through TVA but cancelled due to shipping issues. Placed my order with Chris on 7/18/06 and he provided tracking info the very next morning. Would have had it delivered on 7/21/06 but I didn't get the voice mail from the shipping company til the next day. Anyway, they called again Monday morning and I had my TV by the afternoon.

I've watched several hours of HD programming using Comcast STB with HDMI on Discovery, HBO and Showtime and am very pleased to no longer have the geometry and "speedbump" issues I had with my 55" Mitsi HD. Have also watched several movies with my Panny RP56 via component cable and am very pleased. To me, the pic looks slightly better with the progressive on rather than off.

Now I want an HD player, but after the TV, cables and PureAV PF40, I'm tapped out at the moment. Ah, well, patience is a virtue, right??

Again, big big kudos to Chris for his outstanding service!

Unclejeff

07-27-06, 07:27 PM

DigitalOBX

07-27-06, 07:36 PM

I get my OTA signals using my Dish 622 Satellite Box. I scans for local channels and delivers both analog and digital OTA. I don't bother with the analog. You can also get an OTA receiver at most any B&M( brick and mortar) shop.

I am looking for a OTA HD tuner myself.....the BB I was in today stated they will not be stocking them anymore....not on my number one priority list right now - but the more I think about it, it should be.....is the Humax a pretty good unit?

msd20

07-28-06, 06:29 PM

wblynch

07-28-06, 06:36 PM

I am looking for a OTA HD tuner myself.....the BB I was in today stated they will not be stocking them anymore....not on my number one priority list right now - but the more I think about it, it should be.....is the Humax a pretty good unit?

Costco has the DirecTV HDR-250 High Definition TIVO for $349.

You'd have to check but I don't think it requires a DirecTV subscription.

It has two OTA tuners as well as two satellite tuners so you could use it solely as an off-the-air TIVO.

You would have to pay for TIVO monthly service if you want more than the 30 minute pause feature.

I have 1 year to go on my DirecTV contract because when I bought the unit a 2-year contract was required; but when the contract expires I will use it only for OTA.

It works beautifully for OTA High Definition reception.

GrandMasterJ

07-29-06, 11:55 AM

Received my 50XR5 from Visual Apex in two days. I had originally ordered from TVA but when "severely disappointed" by them, both Visual Apex and Chris at Cleveland Plasma offered their assistance. Thanks to both companies and their customer service oriented personel like Chris and Nancy.

I'm running the break-in DVD, but couldn't help taking it for a quick spin with the Cpcat/LisaM settings from the other thread. I watched the superbit version of Desperado using the Oppo 971...Simply beautiful. A bit overscanned(alas) but still beautiful. I also tried Equilibrium to ascertain the blacks and details in dark scenes. Performed remarkably well. Had to use low noise reduction on the Oppo(seemed to do a better job than the internal noise reduction setting inherent in the NEC) to remove the grainy appearance of white lights and smoke. This is a DVD limitation though, and not at all a fault of the NEC.

I'm left with two questions:

Is it damaging or a bad-idea to consistently run the break-in DVD for the first 100 hours when the display isn't in use? The AC is on, and the ceiling fan is running, so the unit seems to be staying cool.

Close to the middle of my panel there's....well, it's not a dead pixel. It's a pixel that seems to have a "black border" around it. The center of the pixel still displays the correct colors. I have a dead pixel on my LCD computer monitor, and it doesn't exhibit the same behavior as this one. Luckily it can't be seen from viewing distance even knowing where it is, but one foot closer and with some difficulty and time, I can pick it out. Any ideas what this is?

billybob_jcv

07-29-06, 01:31 PM

Costco has the DirecTV HDR-250 High Definition TIVO for $349.

You'd have to check but I don't think it requires a DirecTV subscription.

It has two OTA tuners as well as two satellite tuners so you could use it solely as an off-the-air TIVO.

You would have to pay for TIVO monthly service if you want more than the 30 minute pause feature.

I have 1 year to go on my DirecTV contract because when I bought the unit a 2-year contract was required; but when the contract expires I will use it only for OTA.

It works beautifully for OTA High Definition reception.

According to page 48 of the HR10-250 manual:

"If you set up the HD DVR to receive off-air antenna broadcasts only (that is, you
connected an off-air antenna and you selected “Off-Air antenna only” during Guided Setup), you will be able to watch programs from two antenna channels at the same time. However, no recording is possible unless you activate the DVR service and connect a satellite dish antenna."

billybob_jcv

07-29-06, 01:39 PM

Has anyone else noticed that they now have NEC plasmas listed at amazon.com via (of all places!) Target & OfficeDepot. Or have I just been asleep and never noticed before?

wblynch

07-29-06, 02:45 PM

According to page 48 of the HR10-250 manual:

"If you set up the HD DVR to receive off-air antenna broadcasts only (that is, you
connected an off-air antenna and you selected “Off-Air antenna only” during Guided Setup), you will be able to watch programs from two antenna channels at the same time. However, no recording is possible unless you activate the DVR service and connect a satellite dish antenna."

Right. The guide information is downloaded from the satellite.

jvincent

07-29-06, 02:51 PM

[QUOTE=GrandMasterJ
I'm left with two questions:

Is it damaging or a bad-idea to consistently run the break-in DVD for the first 100 hours when the display isn't in use? The AC is on, and the ceiling fan is running, so the unit seems to be staying cool.

Close to the middle of my panel there's....well, it's not a dead pixel. It's a pixel that seems to have a "black border" around it. The center of the pixel still displays the correct colors. I have a dead pixel on my LCD computer monitor, and it doesn't exhibit the same behavior as this one. Luckily it can't be seen from viewing distance even knowing where it is, but one foot closer and with some difficulty and time, I can pick it out. Any ideas what this is?[/QUOTE]

First question: No. If the room isn't getting hot, you should be fine. Some people suggest turning it off for a couple hours during the break-in period just to let it fully cool down.

Second question: Either it's an uneven phosphor deposit or a manufacturing "error" that resulting it a larger electrode.

GrandMasterJ

07-29-06, 02:59 PM

First question: No. If the room isn't getting hot, you should be fine. Some people suggest turning it off for a couple hours during the break-in period just to let it fully cool down.

Will do.

Second question: Either it's an uneven phosphor deposit or a manufacturing "error" that resulting it a larger electrode.

Interesting. Is this a likely occurence with plasma display panels? If it's a phosphor deposit, is it likely to fade with time and use? Do you have any links where I can read up on that? I haven't heard of it before.

jvincent

07-29-06, 03:05 PM

Interesting. Is this a likely occurence with plasma display panels? If it's a phosphor deposit, is it likely to fade with time and use? Do you have any links where I can read up on that? I haven't heard of it before.

Not sure how likely it is but I'd be surprised if it changed much with age.

Sorry, no links. I've got a general understanding of how plasma's are made from my pre-purchase research, and those are the likely causes.

johnteeee

07-29-06, 05:03 PM

Greetings...................
I got my 50XR5 the other day and have only put 9 hours of viewing. I'm in the
Break-In period and the only change that I made to my set out of the box
were:
1- Lowering the Contrast to min.
2- Lowering the Brightness to min.
3- Lowering Sharpness to Zero.
4- Setting the Wide to Stadium.
5- Changing the side bars color to Gray@9.

I remember reading through this thread CPCAT mentiond among other things
double check that your Info Signal says: 1365 x 768 & Memory: 18

Well, now when I check my S/I it says: 1024 X 1080 & Memory: 94 !!
What's up with that?! Is this releavant? As I indicated I have not done any
other adjustments other than the above.

I'd appreciate any input...................................Thanx............... ..JT

jvincent

07-29-06, 07:31 PM

When you see Memory:18 on info it means that you are feeding the panel at native rate. This means you either have a scaler or HTPC connected at 1365x768.

What do you have connected?

johnteeee

07-29-06, 09:08 PM

Hi JVINCENT
I only have a Satellite Reciever from *D (H20) through HDMI . Nothing else for now.
Thanx for your input....................JT

johnteeee

07-29-06, 11:17 PM

Ladies & Gents,
I just wanna say: Thank You. I mean I was ready to put the order in for the new
Pio 5070 but just before the final call, I thought to myself,heck let's go to the
forum and read about the difference between Pio Vs Panny !! Just by luck I saw
the Thread for NEW NEC.............. and the rest is history !!
I've just got my 50XR5A and am on the Break-In period and the settings are just
terrible, but I'm telling you the picture is just amazing, breathtaking and at these settings?!!
Again Thank you for all the good and useful info and for helping me to make the correct dicision.

big_marcelo

07-30-06, 12:29 AM

Cleveland Plasma

07-30-06, 12:30 AM

Welcome to a very "Elite" club. If only others new.........

johnteeee

07-30-06, 11:30 AM

Hi Guys
I wanna get a Scaler and am kinda thorn between the DVDO VP30 and the
Lumagen Vision HDQ.
I would appreciate if anyone who is familiar could push me toward one!!

Cleveland Plasma

07-30-06, 11:44 AM

The NEC scaler is expensive but just got high reviews. NEC TheaterSync (Click Here) (http://www.necvisualsystems.com/Products/Product/?product=342410a9-72e8-4e9f-b0bb-60cb62ada326)
http://www.necvisualsystems.com/cms/images/Products/ProductClassImage/productsupportimagesm_THEAT.gif (http://www.necvisualsystems.com/Products/Product/?product=342410a9-72e8-4e9f-b0bb-60cb62ada326)

cirob

07-30-06, 11:54 AM

Hi Guys
I wanna get a Scaler and am kinda thorn between the DVDO VP30 and the
Lumagen Vision HDQ.
I would appreciate if anyone who is familiar could push me toward one!!

I tried the vp30 with the abt card for couple weeks and returned it, the pq was noticeable better in sd but in hd I saw no difference, I actually thought the internal scaler did a better job. Same with the toshiba hddvd, better pq directly to the display in hd. I have comcast and 19 hd channel I rarely watch sd, keeping the vp30 would have been a waste. The vp experts say the lumagen is better in hd,
one of the guys here cpcat has a lumagen and if I remember correctly he said he saw no difference in pq. I would like to get a used lumagen myself just to try but from what i have been reading is not newbie friendly but their support is top notch.

itigap

07-30-06, 01:15 PM

Hi Guys
I wanna get a Scaler and am kinda thorn between the DVDO VP30 and the
Lumagen Vision HDQ.
I would appreciate if anyone who is familiar could push me toward one!!

I was in the same boat. I found Lumagen to be an outstanding company designing and building exceptional products. I am a systems engineer and particularly appreciated several aspects of the Lumagen products.

First, they have an excellent logical design that is both straight forward and very flexable. This is achieved with a manageable set of input and output configuration memories and sub-memories assignable to the various inputs.

Second, I respect that this company appears to well test their products and features before release. Not that they are perfect but MUCH better than most of the competition.

Finally, this company continually releases expanded functionality for their boxes so you are not left in the dust. I like this track record of support.

Therefore, I would not hesitate to purchase a Lumagen product if I NEEDED one.

Aha ........ but there is the rub! Do you need one? I thought, more accurately assumed, I did. After all, like most of us, I wanted the BEST PQ I could afford and believe that video processing is the weak link component in most displays.

But apparently NEC is not merely “most displays” it is rather a NEC! This forum has revealed that the processing found in the current NECs is of a high enough a standard that an external processor such as Lumegen’s current processors does not improve the PQ. I would not have believed this but for member cpcat. This is perhaps the most knowledgeable and technically adept member on the forum. For me, his observations over a significant period of time carry a great deal of authority.

If you still want to improve PQ beyond what comes with your NEC display, then I suggest you wait until Lumagen releases their Realta HQV based processor. I would fully expect this VP to far exceed the capabilities of the display’s built in processor but at a cost, 4k, exceeding the cost of the display itself. However, this brings into question the advisability of deploying this super VP technology on a display with less than 1080p native resolution.

Just my $0.02.

Best wishes and should you add a VP to your system, please report back to us on its effectiveness.

Cheers, :)

Gary

BOSS10L

07-30-06, 01:25 PM

Welcome to a very "Elite" club. If only others new.........

Nice pun... :D :cool:

itigap

07-30-06, 01:35 PM

BOSS10L,

Love your tag line. I am living proof of both parts! :D

cheers,

Gary

volusiacat

07-30-06, 04:13 PM

Just got my 42XR4 hooked up a couple days ago and starting to tinker/tweak it. One question is on the Stadium mode....in the manual it appears the center is stretched less than the sides but that the original content of the frame is preserved. I am getting quite a bit of info cut off each side of my SD 4x3 image when i use this mode. For reference i am missing the DIR from the Directv on the top left guide banner. Is this normal and i am misinterpreting the diagram? I am using HD Tivo from D and outputting 720 in panel mode.

by the way, thanks to all on this thread especially, you convinced me to go with the NEC and you were absolutely right!
Kevin

Steve L

07-30-06, 05:16 PM

But apparently NEC is not merely “most displays” it is rather a NEC! This forum has revealed that the processing found in the current NECs is of a high enough a standard that an external processor such as Lumegen’s current processors does not improve the PQ. I would not have believed this but for member cpcat. This is perhaps the most knowledgeable and technically adept member on the forum. For me, his observations over a significant period of time carry a great deal of authority.

I tried the vp30 with the abt card for couple weeks and returned it, the pq was noticeable better in sd but in hd I saw no difference, I actually thought the internal scaler did a better job. Same with the toshiba hddvd, better pq directly to the display in hd. I have comcast and 19 hd channel I rarely watch sd, keeping the vp30 would have been a waste. The vp experts say the lumagen is better in hd, one of the guys here cpcat has a lumagen and if I remember correctly he said he saw no difference in pq. I would like to get a used lumagen myself just to try but from what i have been reading is not newbie friendly but their support is top notch.

Not a NEC owner, but following this thread for a friend of mine who is considering a 50XR5. I read the results (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7962776&&#post7962776) of Sakaike's 480i HDMI NEC internal de-interlacer / scaler HQV testing and made a mental note of a part of his conclusion, borne out by the test results, which seem pretty objective:

My hope that I had a superior deinterlacer and scaler in my NEC compared to the Oppo is not borne out by the fact that the 480i score is so low.,

This would lead me to believe that if you are saying your NEC's internal processors are equal to or better than the external Lumagen and DVDO products, by extension, the Faroudja circuitry in the 971HD is better than those scalers (and the NEC's) as well. So there may be some room for DVD PQ improvement with the right player attached?

Make any sense? Not trying to be provocative, just trying to process all this info correctly! :) Thx.

/steve

cpcat

07-30-06, 07:09 PM

This would lead me to believe that if you are saying your NEC's internal processors are equal to or better than the external Lumagen and DVDO products, by extension, the Faroudja circuitry in the 971HD is better than those scalers (and the NEC's) as well. So there may be some room for DVD PQ improvement with the right player attached?

/steve

There can be a big difference in how SD vs. HD is processed or even 480i vs. 480p. The testing indicates it's probably better to allow the Oppo do the 480i deinterlacing vs the XR5. I had similar results with the Toshiba A1. That's probably all you can conclude and I think the answer to your question would be yes a DVD player upgrade can certainly help. The Lumagen vp is known for it's HD processing performance while the DVDO seems to hold the upper hand with SD from what I've heard. The XR5 scored higher with the HQV disc than my Lumagen with 480i over component but neither did as well as the Toshiba A1 (or the Oppo assuming my tests are comparable to Sakaike's).

When the NEC is fed native rate from a scaler, the panel's internal noise reduction circuitry is disabled. This makes for a noisier image (especially with a Sat feed) and I think is probably the reason I prefer feeding direct to the panel. I think this is probably the reason Ofer Laor noted increased noise when he reviewed the XR4 as well.

Using something like NEC's TheaterSync processor may be a better match (although much more expensive) as it has more extensive noise reduction features than the Lumagen.

big_marcelo

07-30-06, 09:08 PM

Just ordered my XR5 from a retailer in Sydney .... fantastic... now the waiting game begins... hopefully should be less then a week!!!

itigap

07-30-06, 09:20 PM

There can be a big difference in how SD vs. HD is processed or even 480i vs. 480p. The testing indicates it's probably better to allow the Oppo do the 480i deinterlacing vs the XR5. I had similar results with the Toshiba A1. That's probably all you can conclude and I think the answer to your question would be yes a DVD player upgrade can certainly help. The Lumagen vp is known for it's HD processing performance while the DVDO seems to hold the upper hand with SD from what I've heard. The XR5 scored higher with the HQV disc than my Lumagen with 480i over component but neither did as well as the Toshiba A1 (or the Oppo assuming my tests are comparable to Sakaike's).

When the NEC is fed native rate from a scaler, the panel's internal noise reduction circuitry is disabled. This makes for a noisier image (especially with a Sat feed) and I think is probably the reason I prefer feeding direct to the panel. I think this is probably the reason Ofer Laor noted increased noise when he reviewed the XR4 as well.

Using something like NEC's TheaterSync processor may be a better match (although much more expensive) as it has more extensive noise reduction features than the Lumagen.
Cpcat,

Thanks for weighing in. I think you highlight my point about the Silicon Optics Realta chip. The NEC TheaterSync processor uses this new advanced chip. However, if I were to go with a Realta based processor, I would probably wait for Lumagen’s release of their new Radiance model due to their prior track record. They are a company dedicated to processors and I suspect will evolve their processor much further than NEC.

Cheers, :)

Gary

Steve L

07-30-06, 09:55 PM

Using something like NEC's TheaterSync processor may be a better match (although much more expensive) as it has more extensive noise reduction features than the Lumagen.

I guess that's one way to go, if money is no object, but my friend is looking at the NEC because he's doesn't have deep pockets and is hoping to get a display with close to Fujitsu PQ, but at Panasonic prices. Same logic holds for the upcoming Lumagen, in Gary's reply. :)

Based on Sakaikes's test results, it seems to me the best non-HD DVD match for this display (based on bang for the buck) might be the Oppo 971H at less than a quarter of the MSRP cost of the Denon 2930, which I believe is the lowest cost player with a newer Realta (Reon) chip out there.

/steve

sakaike

07-30-06, 10:07 PM

I guess that's one way to go, if money is no object, but my friend is looking at the NEC because he's doesn't have deep pockets and is hoping to get a display with close to Fujitsu PQ, but at Panasonic prices. Same logic holds for the upcoming Lumagen, in Gary's reply. :)

Based on Sakaikes's test results, it seems to me the best non-HD DVD match for this display (based on bang for the buck) might be the Oppo 971H at less than a quarter of the MSRP cost of the Denon 2930, which I believe is the lowest cost player with a newer Realta (Reon) chip out there.

/steve
Your friend's logic was/is the same as mine. I want maximum value for all my components without sacrificing anything on the PQ side. That led me to the NEC/Oppo 971 combo. Eventually, I will migrate to a HD/BD player, but for now, I have an excellent viewing experience for a great price.

OTOH, I believe that CPCAT found that the upscaling capabilities of the Toshiba HD-DVD player was on par with the Oppo. So if you want to be an early adopter and gamble on the HD format, you can get the equivalent viewing experience from standard DVDs with the Toshiba, and also get the enhanced viewing experience of HD-DVDs today, which is something I haven't been brave enough to do yet.

bobby_t1

07-31-06, 12:33 AM

tony17

07-31-06, 08:27 AM

Just ordered my XR5 from a retailer in Sydney .... fantastic... now the waiting game begins... hopefully should be less then a week!!!

Marcelo, Congrats!!

I have followed you posts and what seemed to be an endless search and lenghty testing of various panels. I thought you'd never pull the trigger :D

Congrats again....and welcome to the NEC club, I'm sure you won't regret it! I have to warn you though, once you've been bit by NEC, it's hard to get away :)

r1lee

07-31-06, 12:44 PM

haveoneolboy

07-31-06, 03:23 PM

cpcat

07-31-06, 03:33 PM

Wow! :)

GrandMasterJ

07-31-06, 04:14 PM

I noticed today that I'm getting IR (or is it burn-in?) on my 50XR5.

I have my HTPC running Media Center 2006 and noticd that I can see a ghost image from the music menu. Honestly I've left the menus shown on teh screen, but not for that long of a period, maybe 2 hours at most.

I've tried using the recommend program JScreenFix (http://g.msn.com/9SE/1?http://screenfix.hostyourself.net/) and ran it for about an hour and it helped a little bit but not enough.

I have about 250 hours on this panel and am stressing out about this..

I noticed it on mine as well when I turn the settings up from the break-in settings I'm running. I'm only at 80 hours now, and still running the break-in DVD. I think it is virtually a "feature" of the NEC, and you have to live with it. Any retention I saw was gone in less than 5 seconds, and I could only see it on a one-color background. That was just for the Incredibles sitting at their dinner table for a minute! I wanted to do a test with settings to see how things looked, and didn't watch the movie.

I wouldn't stress about it, it's not permanent. You shouldn't be able to see it when watching a DVD or HDTV channel, and it's more of an "after-effect."

Dufusyte

07-31-06, 04:44 PM

taking pictures without a tripod is very difficult. Even the slightest movement will result in motion blur.
One photography tip would be to set the camera on any flat surface, and use the timer feature so it will have time to settle perfectly still before snapping the picture, so you are not actually holding the camera at the time it takes the photo.

wblynch

07-31-06, 04:50 PM

This thread is so long and I've tried reading through to help my current situation. Maybe someone can help me out..

Does the PX-61XM4A or even maybe the other models, is there anyway to make the "wide" button work through component cable.

Unfortunately my STB does not do automatic stretch mode. I have the SA3250 and everytime i stretch it, when it goes to a true hidef picture it still stays in stretch mode.

I was hoping the 61XM4A can do the stretch mode, but it doesn't seem to through the component cable.

The Stadium stretch will work only if you're running in 480i or 480p mode.

I am using the DirecTV HD-Tivo and am connected only via component cables through the home theater receiver. For SD channels I run in 480p mode with Stadium stretch and for HD channels I run 1080i in Normal.

The only annoyance is HD channels that have a 4:3 program on. Because the sidebars are built into the signal I have no easy stretch option. I've learned to just live with that.

tony17

07-31-06, 04:54 PM

The Stadium stretch will work only if you're running in 480i or 480p mode.

I am using the DirecTV HD-Tivo and am connected only via component cables through the home theater receiver. For SD channels I run in 480p mode with Stadium stretch and for HD channels I run 1080i in Normal.

The only annoyance is HD channels that have a 4:3 program on. Because the sidebars are built into the signal I have no easy stretch option. I've learned to just live with that.

That doesn't sound right to me. I am able to use the Stadium stretch mode with both 720p and 1080i as well as 480 on my XR5. I do it all the time with 4:3 OTA material. I am using HDMI, but I don't think it is a limitation of component. Anyone else experience this?

haveoneolboy

08-01-06, 09:59 AM

One photography tip would be to set the camera on any flat surface, and use the timer feature so it will have time to settle perfectly still before snapping the picture, so you are not actually holding the camera at the time it takes the photo.

Good Advice!

r1lee

08-01-06, 10:51 AM

The Stadium stretch will work only if you're running in 480i or 480p mode.

I am using the DirecTV HD-Tivo and am connected only via component cables through the home theater receiver. For SD channels I run in 480p mode with Stadium stretch and for HD channels I run 1080i in Normal.

The only annoyance is HD channels that have a 4:3 program on. Because the sidebars are built into the signal I have no easy stretch option. I've learned to just live with that.

Cool, so if I set my SA3250 down to 480p, then I should be able to use Stadium stretch? This wouldn't affect my HD programing would it?

Thanks, I appreciate teh help.

SHodorov

08-01-06, 12:17 PM

bvader

08-01-06, 08:22 PM

I have a cablevision provided SA 8300HD in NY connected via HDMI to a NEC 50xr5. everything was working great for around 3 months until recently... now when I change channels from HD to SD (700's to locals for example) the NEC shows 'snow'. when I change back to HD and scroll through the channels the NEC resets and shows the picture... (typically when I hit 13HD) I had all output modes on the 8300 set to yes (480I/P 720 etc) and this happened almost every time. I turned them all off and left 1080I on and it still happens but less frequently...

Any ideas?

thanks

It is most likely the SA83000 HDMI HDCP handshaking issue... Let me gues TWC in NY. The Firmware etc is flaky maybe they just updated it. I have had various issues with the SA8300. I would reccomend leaving it on passthru (select all resolutions). Funny thing is your issues as described is "backwards" usually you will get "snow" on the the HD channels and a picture on the SD channels. There are some threads on the SA8300 in the HDTV Recorders forum ... lots of good info there...

Here is a similar issue / further info

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7902783#post7902783

rhoffman

08-01-06, 09:15 PM

FYI, I'm not having any issues with TWC in NYC using the SA83000 box. Have you tried resetting the box? Maybe that will do the trick.

Haveoneolboy, those are some nice pictures. What settings are you using?

LisaM

08-01-06, 09:19 PM

I'm not having any issues either with the 8300 box. I only enable 720p and 1080i.

big_marcelo

08-02-06, 10:17 AM

I've just set up my NEC XR5 tonight - I'm using the DVDO VP30, so the setup is not 100% yet as I'm tweeking, changing inputs, etc.....

I have my settings really, really toned down for IR/Burn in issues (actually I couldnt find the break-in settings, if anyone would like to post again or PM me thanks!).

What I really wanted to post is the fact that, although I've only watched SD so far (NR2), the PQ is excellent and I'm seating only 7 feet away ..... 2.2 metres.....

if you are seating at this distance or further, don't consider a 42" - you will regret it in no time.... ... I thought it would take me 2-3 weeks to get used to the size of the 50" ... I'm coming from a 32" Sony CRT..... after 10 minutes I was used to it......

LOVE IT!!!! :)

mjosef

08-02-06, 11:57 AM

I have been enjoying(most of the time) my new plasma for the past three weeks. THanks to Plasma Concepts for a speedy delivery. Was able to mount it on the wall by myself, it was heavier than it looks.
The factory setting were way too bright and oversaturated imo. Kudos to NEC for the numerous menu options. My 42XR4A is mounted directly above my old 27" Panasonic CRT tv making video comparision relatively easy. After three weeks of tweeking and viewing, the details in the shadow areas still cannot compare to the CRT tv, but every other aspect of the picture just about beats the CRT tv.
I haven't experienced any IR issues. And yeah, I feel a lot more heat coming from the plasma compared to the crt, should be a blessing in the colder months but not too welcome in the current heat wave.
Regrets? Mhnnn...the day after placing order, I saw the Phillips 50" on sale for 300$ cheaper, but then I found several threads detailing numerous problems with those units. My only true regret was that I waited so many months before pulling the trigger.

r1lee

08-02-06, 12:20 PM

The Stadium stretch will work only if you're running in 480i or 480p mode.

I am using the DirecTV HD-Tivo and am connected only via component cables through the home theater receiver. For SD channels I run in 480p mode with Stadium stretch and for HD channels I run 1080i in Normal.

The only annoyance is HD channels that have a 4:3 program on. Because the sidebars are built into the signal I have no easy stretch option. I've learned to just live with that.

Hey wblynch,
still can't get the stadium stretch mode to enable on 480p. I wonder if stretch mode is even available on Component connections. As the manual only states "wide" is only available on some but not all inputs.

SHodorov

08-02-06, 03:21 PM

I'm not having any issues either with the 8300 box. I only enable 720p and 1080i.

The issue went away last night after I disconnected the HDMI cable and routed a component cable... Calling Cablevision and holding for 20 minutes resulter in an angry cust (dis)service rep telling me to bring the box in for an exchange or "live with it"

cpcat

08-02-06, 03:23 PM

LOVE IT!!!! :)

Way to go big_m!

haveoneolboy

08-03-06, 12:04 PM

Haveoneolboy, those are some nice pictures. What settings are you using?

I basically started with cpcat's bright settings and made minor adjustments over a months time. My panel is the 50" XM5A which is the commercial version. I really don't know what the current settings are. I will try to write them down and post them.

big_marcelo

08-03-06, 11:58 PM

Way to go big_m!
Thanks CPCAT,

I had my contrast and brightness turned way too low.... unwatcheable in dark scenes.... so I'm back to more 'useable' levels, without being the best settings yet....

also, i'm using ideal-lume as back lighting (6500k) and it really helps to relax the eye and bring perceivd contrast in the picture.....

I briefly had the picture through the DVDO VP30 in 1:1 mapping..... it looked amazing!!! I don't want to run in 1:1 yet as I would have to have the anti-IR measures turned off... not game enough yet for that.

even set to 720p the image is fantastic..... I'm really enjoying it.... astonishing detail... even though the black leves are not up to CRT standards.... (at least with my settings.....) and at 7 feet... that's pretty great.

caribbeansun

08-04-06, 07:58 AM

bvader

08-04-06, 10:19 AM

also, i'm using ideal-lume as back lighting (6500k) and it really helps to relax the eye and bring perceivd contrast in the picture.....

Hey big_marcelo, do you use the bias lighting all the time? And how are you controlling them i.e. on/off

GBFreek

08-04-06, 10:23 AM

I have received some private messages to post some screen shots. I must add that taking pictures without a tripod is very difficult. Even the slightest movement will result in motion blur. This was my first attempt so excuse the angle, i will try to get a tripod for my next attempt.

http://www.glowracks.com/xm5a-1
http://www.glowracks.com/xm5a-2
http://www.glowracks.com/xm5a-3
http://www.glowracks.com/xm5a-4
http://www.glowracks.com/xm5a-5

Hot damn!!! Great job...tha picture of the guy and the one of the Counting Crows really show the depth of the NEC...fabulous!!!

Would you mind posting a few of SD (possibly stadium stretched and also unstretched)?? Maybe some DVD shots too?

Also, what is yoru set up (42", 50" or 60", Cab or Sat?

Thanks in advance........

big_marcelo

08-04-06, 10:55 AM

Hey big_marcelo, do you use the bias lighting all the time? And how are you controlling them i.e. on/off

I only use bias light at night - I turn them on manually .... for now.... x10 would probably be in my future at some stage..... I highly recommend it... you could use some form of lighthing and it would probably do 90% of what this one does.......

haveoneolboy

08-04-06, 03:09 PM

Hot damn!!! Great job...tha picture of the guy and the one of the Counting Crows really show the depth of the NEC...fabulous!!!

Would you mind posting a few of SD (possibly stadium stretched and also unstretched)?? Maybe some DVD shots too?

Also, what is yoru set up (42", 50" or 60", Cab or Sat?

Thanks in advance........

I have the 50" and Dish Network 622 HD receiver. I will try and take some SD shots this weekend.

GBFreek

08-04-06, 03:59 PM

Thanks, I look forward to it....your screen caps are some of the best I have seen on here...

Not having easy access to view the NEC in person, I need to do it through this forum.

Any regrets in the purchase?

Unclejeff

08-04-06, 09:05 PM

This is post number 3670 and I don't think I have seen more than two 'regrets'........

Cleveland Plasma

08-04-06, 10:31 PM

I agree...I saw only one regret and that guy was using S-Video to base his decision........enough said.

johnteeee

08-05-06, 01:31 PM

Hi everyone;
Guys, is it my imagination or as this set (50XR5A) ages the PQ gets better !!
I'm telling ya, I'm at only 40th hour and even the Blackness is improving! And
it's not like I have all the settings at premium, I mean the PQ should be terrible
where all the settings are for Break-in period.

Anyway I hope I'm not imagining and other fellow NECers have had the same
experience: This set is like a Persian carpet !!
Thanx...............John

DAB

08-05-06, 03:36 PM

Johnteee, yes some of us have- observed the PQ gets better- and i have seen a little better PQ after it warms up a couple of hour- but could be just our eyes getting getting more focused.
db

cirob

08-05-06, 04:36 PM

I agree my nec seems to get better with age :)
I had the pio fhd delivered yesterday and did a side by side with the nec and imo the nec stood it's ground against the double the money state of the art pioneer.
comcast hd was even, edge to the pio with hddvd due to smooth and bright colors with crispier and deeper blacks. With the samsung blueray in 1080p wich is the pio resolution, the pq goes from great to crappy, the blueray dvd's are poorly encoded. Obviously even in that case the pio has the advantage being 1080p. I hope blueray solve the issue with the dvd's and start using vc1 and pionner or panasonic come out with a kickass player, maybe toshiba next generation will be 1080p, that's the only way the fhd or any other 1080p display will shine.

lewlew

08-06-06, 01:45 PM

Hi everyone,
I'm about to purchase a 61XR4. I would like to know from those of you with the 61XR4 which wall mount you chose and how it's working out for you.

I've been looking at the peerless sf and st 680s with a middle leg. Is the third leg absolutely necessary?

I'm also considering a very thin shim behind the sf to obtain a small amount of tilt without going a great distance from the wall.

Any help would be appreciated.

Cleveland Plasma

08-06-06, 02:26 PM

The Sanus VMPL3 will work Click Here (http://www.sanus.com/cgi-bin/web_store.cgi?page=products/wallmount/visionmount/VMPL3.html&cart_id=)

http://www.sanus.com/images/VMPL3b_Sm.jpg (http://www.sanus.com/cgi-bin/web_store.cgi?page=products/wallmount/visionmount/VMPL3.html&cart_id=)

jvincent

08-06-06, 03:29 PM

Hi everyone,
I'm about to purchase a 61XR4. I would like to know from those of you with the 61XR4 which wall mount you chose and how it's working out for you.

Table mount here, so I can't help.

Just so you know, 61" is big and heavy so be sure that where you mount it is where you want it to be forever.

caribbeansun

08-07-06, 10:43 AM

Anyone?

I've only found two Canadian sources that are verifiable as NEC distributors and hence have the NEC warranty intact - AV Deals and CompleteIT

I've read a number of pages of posts in this thread and done a number of searches but haven't really found anything about where Canadians are picking up their XR5's - any suggestions on places to check? The only one I've found that seems genuine is AV Deals in Oakville as they do offer a B&M visit to view prior to buying and of course their pricing reflects that.

jvincent

08-07-06, 02:56 PM

Anyone?

I've only found two Canadian sources that are verifiable as NEC distributors and hence have the NEC warranty intact - AV Deals and CompleteIT

I ordered my 61XR4 from CompletIT. No problems at all with the transaction / delivery.

johnteeee

08-07-06, 05:54 PM

I've read a number of pages of posts in this thread and done a number of searches but haven't really found anything about where Canadians are picking up their XR5's - any suggestions on places to check? The only one I've found that seems genuine is AV Deals in Oakville as they do offer a B&M visit to view prior to buying and of course their pricing reflects that.

I bought my 50XR5A through Evisionplasma.ca and had an excellent experience.
And the customer service is really personal and good. They're out in B.C. Hope
this'll help you out. But regardless of where you buy the set, the display is A1
and you will be very happy and no regret.

tunnelight06

08-08-06, 09:17 PM

I have become intrigued with this Display after debating between a Pioneer 5070 and Panasonic 600U.

But I need some important help.

I will be using this display for television purposes only. No PC, No Games etc.

Apparently I will need to puchase some kind of external tuner in order to receive my local channels in HD. I have Direct TV.

First of all ... Is it worth it to go through the trouble?

And If so, what should I be looking to buy as far as tuners go?

Thanks in advance!!!

cpcat

08-08-06, 09:40 PM

I have become intrigued with this Display after debating between a Pioneer 5070 and Panasonic 600U.

But I need some important help.

I will be using this display for television purposes exclusively. No PC, No Games etc.

Apparently I will need to puchase some kind of external tuner in order to receive my local channels in HD. I have Direct TV.

First of all ... Is it worth it to go through the trouble?

And If so, what should I be looking to buy as far as tuners go?

Thanks in advance!!!

Your D* STB will have an internal ATSC tuner. You will need an antenna though.
It's very much worth it. :)

tunnelight06

08-08-06, 09:43 PM

Your D* STB will have an internal ATSC tuner. You will need an antenna though.
It's very much worth it. :)

I don't understand?

D* STB???

cpcat

08-08-06, 10:05 PM

D*= Direct TV
E*=Echostar=DishNetwork
STB=Set Top Box

tunnelight06

08-08-06, 10:41 PM

D*= Direct TV
E*=Echostar=DishNetwork
STB=Set Top Box

Thanks.

I was told that I would need to buy an external tuner in order to receive local HiDef stations because Direct TV does not have local stations in HiDef in our area. I knew I would need the antenna, but hopefully you are right and I would not have to get an additional tuner.

How about being able to use the PIP feature. Is that where I would need the tuner or would the antenna suffice with that as well.

Hopefully I'm not being too much of a pain.

Thanks in advance!

cpcat

08-09-06, 03:43 AM

The H20 which is the current D* HD STB has an internal digital HDTV (ATSC) tuner as does the prior several generations. I have an H10 as well as a Hughes HTL-HD. Used D* STB's are available on ebay fairly cheap. The H20 will give you MPEG 4 capability but apparently has some issues right now. Check the H20 thread in the HDTV reception hardware part of AVS.

The signal for OTA (over the air) digital TV gets to your tuner in the traditional fashion via antenna/coax cable/antenna preamp. How much antenna, whether indoor or outdoor, need for a preamp depends on your location and distance to your local stations. The signals are broadcast over uhf/vhf just as they have been in the past and the technology is identical all the way up to the point of the HDTV tuner which is the only real difference.

Your local stations are currently broadcasting both analog (NTSC) and digital TV (ATSC) simultaneously as part of the so-called "digital transition". Last I heard, analog will shut down some time in 2009.

For a general idea of what antenna setup to use, go to http://www.antennaweb.org

Also, you can go to http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp and put in your lat/longitude in decimal form for bearings/distances to your local stations. A link to find your magnetic variation from true north is also provided there.

Source to find your lat/longitude: http://terraserver.microsoft.com/

PIP will require two separate sources i.e. dual tuners, tuner and DVD player, whatever.

Here's a pic of my current antenna. Don't be frightened, I'm in the deep fringe and additionally I'm way overboard with this. :)

tunnelight06

08-09-06, 11:15 AM

The H20 which is the current D* HD STB has an internal digital HDTV (ATSC) tuner as does the prior several generations. I have an H10 as well as a Hughes HTL-HD. Used D* STB's are available on ebay fairly cheap. The H20 will give you MPEG 4 capability but apparently has some issues right now. Check the H20 thread in the HDTV reception hardware part of AVS.

The signal for OTA (over the air) digital TV gets to your tuner in the traditional fashion via antenna/coax cable/antenna preamp. How much antenna, whether indoor or outdoor, need for a preamp depends on your location and distance to your local stations. The signals are broadcast over uhf/vhf just as they have been in the past and the technology is identical all the way up to the point of the HDTV tuner which is the only real difference.

Your local stations are currently broadcasting both analog (NTSC) and digital TV (ATSC) simultaneously as part of the so-called "digital transition". Last I heard, analog will shut down some time in 2009.

For a general idea of what antenna setup to use, go to
http://www.antennaweb.org

Also, you can go to http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp and put in your lat/longitude in decimal form for bearings/distances to your local stations. A link to find your magnetic variation from true north is also provided there.

Source to find your lat/longitude: http://terraserver.microsoft.com/

PIP will require two separate sources i.e. dual tuners, tuner and DVD player, whatever.

Here's a pic of my current antenna. Don't be frightened, I'm in the deep fringe and additionally I'm way overboard with this. :)

Thanks much!

big_marcelo

08-09-06, 07:24 PM

Hi CPCAT,

I've done about 110 hours now, and I'm pretty much running your 'normal' settings - thanks!

I have a quick question -

I'm really keen to start watching 2.35:1 DVDs in their native aspect ratio, with the black bars showing (without zooming).... how long during the break in period of your panel did you wait before watching DVDs with the black bars??

I have just received Kingdom of Heaven Directors cut and the Alien Quadrilogy .... so I'm keen to get started!

thanks again!

Marcelo

cpcat

08-09-06, 07:44 PM

I'm really keen to start watching 2.35:1 DVDs in their native aspect ratio, with the black bars showing (without zooming).... how long during the break in period of your panel did you wait before watching DVDs with the black bars??

I have just received Kingdom of Heaven Directors cut and the Alien Quadrilogy .... so I'm keen to get started!

thanks again!

Marcelo

It was around 100 hours when I started watching movies OAR. You can expect an afterimage which will go away completely after about 15 minutes of full screen viewing. This lessens to some extent after about 500 hours. It still happens for me even at over 1000 hours but I've not had any permanent IR whatsoever so I really don't worry about it now.

tdavis21484

08-09-06, 08:26 PM

JG1

08-09-06, 08:33 PM

Is there any feature on the XR5A that lets you check the total hours on the display?

big_marcelo

08-09-06, 09:07 PM

Is there any feature on the XR5A that lets you check the total hours on the display?

yes, you have to go into the service menu and on the last page will show you the total number of hours.

there are links on previous posts to the service menu codes (we can't display them here).

its useful to know.

big_marcelo

08-09-06, 09:24 PM

It was around 100 hours when I started watching movies OAR. You can expect an afterimage which will go away completely after about 15 minutes of full screen viewing. This lessens to some extent after about 500 hours. It still happens for me even at over 1000 hours but I've not had any permanent IR whatsoever so I really don't worry about it now.

thanks Cpcat!

I'm looking forward to the weekend!!!!!!

I'm still running the whitescreen for about 2 hours overnight - just to be sure.....

I think its just the nature of this panel... as long as we don't get burn-in ... I don't mind some IR ...

Cheers,

Marcelo

JG1

08-09-06, 09:32 PM

thanks Cpcat!

I'm looking forward to the weekend!!!!!!

I'm still running the whitescreen for about 2 hours overnight - just to be sure.....

I think its just the nature of this panel... as long as we don't get burn-in ... I don't mind some IR ...

Cheers,

Marcelo

Is it advisable to run the white screen after watching a 2.35:1 format?

Are you running the "inverse/white" setting or the "screen wiper" ?

tunnelight06

08-09-06, 10:14 PM

Do we have to spend extra money just to calibrate this?

I know nothing about this ... so the more information the better.

Thanks in advance!

cpcat

08-09-06, 10:59 PM

Is it advisable to run the white screen after watching a 2.35:1 format?

Are you running the "inverse/white" setting or the "screen wiper" ?

I really haven't had to use the white/inverse screens much. Regular viewing full screen (16:9) seems to do fine. I use the screen wiper for prolonged PC use or for when the kids watch Noggin with that silly logo.

cpcat

08-09-06, 11:02 PM

Do we have to spend extra money just to calibrate this?

I know nothing about this ... so the more information the better.

Thanks in advance!

ISF calibration can certainly help. If I were to do it, I'd wait until you have at least a couple hundred hours on the set. Most here haven't had ISF cal's though.
You might want to read the tweak/settings thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=659424

tunnelight06

08-10-06, 06:38 AM

ISF calibration can certainly help. If I were to do it, I'd wait until you have at least a couple hundred hours on the set. Most here haven't had ISF cal's though.
You might want to read the tweak/settings thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=659424

Is ISF a professional calibration that you pay for?

Can I adjust the set myself using the help of these threads you posted?

What is a calibration disk that I've heard some people mention?

What is the day/night thing people have talked about with regard to ISF calibration?

Debating between a Pioneer 5070 and this Display. Frankly if this set is too much work, I'll probably go with the 5070. I'm trying to get more comfortable here so the more detailed you could be would certainly be appreciated. thanks.

muttt

08-10-06, 07:58 AM

Wow, I almost just had a cow!

I'm watching the Yankees and White Sox on ESPN HD, and they were doing a closeup of Derek Jeter, and I saw what seemed to be a single white pixel lit in the middle of a colored background, and stayed in the same place as the picture moved! AAAH!!

Luckily when I got closer, it was just some artifact in the picture - it was several pixels in size, and wasn't distinct from the pixels around it. WHEW!

Thought I had the infamous stuck pixel there...I would probably have jumped off the house! :cool:
I've found this to be a semi-regular occurrence in HD baseball broadcasts. When they zoom in on a player's face from a camera pretty far away, occasionally there's a stuck/missing pixel in the picture, which is obviously on ESPN's (or, for me, YES's) end. Still, it freaks me out every time!

tony17

08-10-06, 08:42 AM

1) Is ISF a professional calibration that you pay for?

2) Can I adjust the set myself using the help of these threads you posted?

3) What is a calibration disk that I've heard some people mention?

4) What is the day/night thing people have talked about with regard to ISF calibration?

5) Debating between a Pioneer 5070 and this Display. Frankly if this set is too much work, I'll probably go with the 5070. I'm trying to get more comfortable here so the more detailed you could be would certainly be appreciated. thanks.

1) - Yes, but not specific to NEC or Pioneer. This can be done for any type tv.
2) - Yes
3) - AVIA or DVE or GetGray DVD's that have test patterns to help you calibrate the panel more accurately. Again not specific to any certain panel or manufacturer.
4) - Can be activated by an ISF tech. But if you understand the true meaning of the ISF calibration, there really is only one true accurate picture setting and night/day settings are not necessary. That being said, some people like to bump up the brightness setting during the day to compensate for the ambient lighting. If this is your preference, there are plenty of picture memory settings for which you could just save a day setting to, if needed.
5) - I don't think any one panel is more work than another. The NEC will have more picture settings for you to access, which in theory will allow you to have the ability to calibrate to a more accurate picture - but I really don't see that as more work.

JG1

08-10-06, 12:48 PM

I'm having my XR5A calibrated this Monday by Eliab Alvarez de la Campa from www.Avical.com.

I'm getting his Tier-2 calibration package. I'll report back what i think after it's done.

tony17

08-10-06, 01:00 PM

JG1

08-10-06, 01:30 PM

What's the "Tier-2 package" include?

From his website:

Tier-1 video calibration package:
Our Tier-1 package addresses the user menu controls commonly found on a TV for every input used. These would include, but are not limited to, the brightness, contrast, color, tint, and sharpness parameters. The DVD player and cable box get setup within their respective menus as well. Measurements are taken via the industry standard Photo Research PR650 Spectroradiometer or Minolta CS200 with test patterns supplied via the Sencore VP-403 and/or Accupel HDG-3000 generators. DVE Pro DVDs are also employed as are our proprietary HD DVD & Blu-ray* test discs. Pre and post calibration readings are documented on our custom designed calibration field report* and given to the client.

Tier-2 video calibration package:
Our Tier-2 package builds on the Tier-1 package by including entry into the service menu. This enables access to many more controls which significantly impact picture quality thus rendering a more complete and precise calibration. These may include, but are not limited to, gamma, color decoder, geometry, overscan, convergence, and grayscale parameters. Certain displays will also have mechanical adjustments performed such as focus and deep optics cleaning.

itigap

08-10-06, 05:10 PM

I'm having my XR5A calibrated this Monday by Eliab Alvarez de la Campa from www.Avical.com.

I'm getting his Tier-2 calibration package. I'll report back what i think after it's done.
Thanks for posting. Great to hear.

Maybe you can get some screen pictures before and after for comparison. This would be really useful information for the rest of us. At least it would be for me.

Are you thinking of having day/night settings?

cheers, :)

Gary

JG1

08-10-06, 05:27 PM

Thanks for posting. Great to hear.

Maybe you can get some screen pictures before and after for comparison. This would be really useful information for the rest of us. At least it would be for me.

Are you thinking of having day/night settings?

cheers, :)

Gary

Every picture I take of the PDP when running gets washed out for some reason. Cannon 4mp camera and I can't get a good shot that shows true to life clarity or colors :confused:

I was just thinking about the day/night settings. I guess I should right?

RGBlues

08-11-06, 09:44 AM

HI folks. I am considering a purchase of an NEC 50XR5-A and have a few questions:

1. What is the difference between the 50XR5 and 50XR5-A?

2. Will the HDMI inputs properly scale HD-DVD, Blueray 1080p to the native 720p?

2. Is the 3 year warranty in home?

4. Has anyone compared the 50XR5-A with the new Panny TH-50PH9UK?

I appreciate all the help you can provide. :)

Cleveland Plasma

08-11-06, 09:51 AM

1. What is the difference between the 50XR5 and 50XR5-A? No difference, but the correct model number is 50XR5A
2. Will the HDMI inputs properly scale HD-DVD, Blueray 1080p to the native 720p? HD-DVD, YES. Blue-Ray will not through HDMI, however it will thruogh component.
2. Is the 3 year warranty in home? The warranty is a 1/3 year warranty, the plasma moduel has a 1 year warranty everything else has 3. In home.
4. Has anyone compared the 50XR5-A with the new Panny TH-50PH9UK? Yes, because the 9UK has the same picture quality as the 60U that have been out for quite sometime.
Hope that covers it.

bvader

08-11-06, 10:27 AM

I'm toying with the idea of getting my 50XR5 ISF Calibrated. Any reccomended calibrators in the So Cal, Orange County Areas? And yes I already did a web search looking for a "reference".

JG1 I will be especially curious about your results....www.Avical.com... is on the list.

GrandMasterJ

08-11-06, 07:31 PM

big_marcelo

08-12-06, 10:13 AM

I'm watching Gladiator extended edition on my NEC XR5 (140 hrs on board so far), using the Oppo 970 (480i out via HDMI) and the DVDO VP30 - sending native rate to the panel......

the level of detail and clarity is amazing!! I'm soo happy ....

black levels are not perfect, but I can see all the detail in dark scenes (dark grey rather then black).... black levels have improved since I first had the panel... which is good.

finally happy with my tweaked settings - after 100 hours I started to use CPCATs setting and doing minor tweaks with the NEC and DVDO to get to where I'm happy before I build enough hours for ISF calibration (even though I think the current PQ would be hard to beat, calibration or not....).

comparing sending different resolutions to the plasma from the DVDO

720 - solid PQ, stable - great
1080i - very film like, if a bit softer
768p (native) - sharp, solid, film-like & Crystal clear - makes the other resolutions look a bit 'fuzzy' in comparisson ..... even 720p

if you have a chance to see this panel at native rate, .. do it .... its fantastic.

johnteeee

08-12-06, 10:33 AM

bvader

08-12-06, 11:03 AM

Hi Guys
Would Anyone Know If Our Sets (50xr5a) Are "hdcp" Compliant?

Thanx For All The Info

P.s Marcelo: I Got The Chance To Watch My Set At The Native Rate & Res.
And I Have To Agree With You, It's Just Amazing.
Yes Both HDMI inputs are:
HDMI 1.1 HDCP compliant

Although..... that doesn't mean there won't be any connectivity issues, some of us have had some minor issues with our Cable STB's (particular SA8300) connected to our Panels that appear to be HDCP Handshake related, we have found work arounds. (reboot, reconnect cables etc..)

EDIT / NOTE: Just to be clear that does not mean that you can't send and Non-HDCP compliant signal such as what is product from the Oppo 971 DVD player. So in essence the Panel will work with both HDCP and Non-HDCP sources.

johnteeee

08-12-06, 11:22 AM

Yes Both HDMI inputs are:
HDMI 1.1 HDCP compliant

Although..... that doesn't mean there won't be any connectivity issues, some of us have had some minor issues with our Cable STB's (particular SA8300) connected to our Panels that appear to be HDCP Handshake related, we have found work arounds. (reboot, reconnect cables etc..)

Thank you BVADER.
You kinda read my mind. I think I'm having a hand shake problem but with my
Scaler( VP30 DVDO ). Are U suggesting rebooting the source? and REconnecting?
souds like a solution !!...................John

bvader

08-12-06, 11:26 AM

Thank you BVADER.
You kinda read my mind. I think I'm having a hand shake problem but with my
Scaler( VP30 DVDO ). Are U suggesting rebooting the source? and REconnecting?
souds like a solution !!...................John
You'll get though it...Hey you should ask big_marcelo.... a few posts up he seems to have the same combo working...

johnteeee

08-12-06, 11:33 AM

You'll get though it...Hey you should ask big_marcelo.... a few posts up he seems to have the same combo working...

Yab. I acually asked him before but to no avail.
I think U have the solution, I just have to keep tryin'
different inputs(HDMI) till I get it sorted out.

Thanx again.....................John

bvader

08-12-06, 05:09 PM

Yab. I acually asked him before but to no avail.
I think U have the solution, I just have to keep tryin'
different inputs(HDMI) till I get it sorted out.

Thanx again.....................John
I just rembered something that may be of use. I have found for my setup I get the greatest success by turning on the Panel First before the source. YMMV ... I have some theories on this but I am sure they are just that.

DigitalOBX

08-12-06, 06:07 PM

I just rembered something that may be of use. I have found for my setup I get the greatest success by turning on the Panel First before the source. YMMV ... I have some theories on this but I am sure they are just that.
Excactly - that's what I have to do with the Tosh HDA1, but seems not needed with the D* H20......

c627627

08-13-06, 04:23 PM

muttt

08-14-06, 11:10 AM

I'll try to look into this tonight, C.

c627627

08-14-06, 11:35 AM

Much obliged.

GrandMasterJ

08-14-06, 11:58 AM

Could any 42XR4 (not the 50") owner please see if they can take a picture from an angle of their set to prove NEC 42" does not have ghosting issues new Panasonics (and supposedly 50" NECs) have as is being claimed here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8200422&&#post8200422

Thank you.

From looking at the picture you took, I'm not sure what you're seeing is ghosting. It looks like, to me, an after-image effect. On my display, white text and black bars produce image retention. It looks like, once again to me, that it's the same effect on your display and what you're seeing is an after image for a second of the previous text as it changes to the new text. This would look like "ghosting." I had thought I saw ghosting on my 50XR5, but after some more study, that is the conclusion I came to. With a response time of around 1-2ms, I don't see how it can ghost.

bvader

08-14-06, 12:14 PM

From looking at the picture you took, I'm not sure what you're seeing is ghosting. It looks like, to me, an after-image effect. On my display, white text and black bars produce image retention. It looks like, once again to me, that it's the same effect on your display and what you're seeing is an after image for a second of the previous text as it changes to the new text. This would look like "ghosting." I had thought I saw ghosting on my 50XR5, but after some more study, that is the conclusion I came to. With a response time of around 1-2ms, I don't see how it can ghost.
To view the "phenonmenon" you need to chose appropriate/specific content such as White Movie Credits on a black background, then you need to be pretty close... several feet or less (for me) and at a very shallow horizontal viewing angle. on the order of 70-90 degs (almost parallel to the panel). I can see it... I would classify it as a simple reflection more than ghosting and its not IR.

I also want to add, since negatives seem to spiral out of control in these threads... (with all due respect to c627627) at normal viewing angles and conditions you can not see this it is not an issue, and c627627 goes to great lengths to explain that this is not an issue with the vast majority of normal viewing, and it is not limited to a single panel model/manufacturer...

What he is trying to accomplish is that he understands that this phenomnom has been elimited in some of the very latest panels, and he is trying to understand why/how and if other panels will be adopting the technology...

I will add that I never noticed this once.. and believe me a have done some close inspections... till I took a look specifically for it... and I watch off-angle sometimes... the phenomenom appears to me to be a simple reflections between the several layers of glass... The question of the day is... does the NEC 42XR4 elimate this....

Is it monday or am I just grumpy ;)

c627627

08-14-06, 12:59 PM

Right, good post.

Here's why Pioneers may not have it:
The newer Pioneers are using a different process to attach the glass to the substrate (I read about this a while back, but had forgotten about it). By doing so, they've eliminated the reflective layer that causes the "ghosting" image from extreme angles. If NEC is using this process (Or maybe Pioneer is using this process via their NEC acquisition?), then their newer models have also eliminated this phenomenon.

It's probably a process that Panasonic needs to work on to improve their panels...

The 50" NEC has this "problem," 42" NEC does not.

I'd like to see pics of the new 42" taken from an angle, preferably of white letters on black background usually found at the end of movies, etc.

Here are more pics of the Panasonic reflections:

DigitalOBX

08-14-06, 02:37 PM

Right, good post.

Here's why Pioneers may not have it:

The 50" NEC has this "problem," 42" NEC does not.:

I do not have this issue on my 50XR5.

c627627

08-14-06, 02:44 PM

Pause the screen when white credits on black background are rolling.

Then approach your 50" from an angle like in the pictures attached to the post above yours.

If you do not see this "phenomenon," please attach pics showing your 50" does not have it.

Only the 42" which has a new panel is said to use different technology which does not show reflections when viewed from angles. The 50" and almost all other brands except for new Pioneer and new 42" NEC are supposed to show ghost reflections from angles as pictured above.

I don't know about high end high priced Plasmas...

DigitalOBX

08-14-06, 03:28 PM

I'll check it out again.....never noticed this type of ghosting effect while at an angle.

bvader

08-14-06, 03:46 PM

I'll check it out again.....never noticed this type of ghosting effect while at an angle.
Off course you haven't because you never pressed your ear against the edge of panel, in a dimly lit room, during movie credits to read who the "Best Boy" is ... ;)

All keep in mind this is an exercise in research... nothing more....nothing less...simple reflections on glass...and not a defect/problem or issue etc IMHO ... its very hard to see from more than a few feet away...the question is can some new technology reduce the reflections... reflections that 99% of us would never see or notice...

And yes the NEC 50XR5A exhibits this behavior, as I am sure that 95% of all panels do...

I have a lot of Mid-Day glare on my screen at the moment, other wise I can easily reproduce/take an image...

In a week or so, I will have an 42XR4 that I will be able to view... I will definitively answer the question at that time if still needed, lets see what mutt sees tonight...now I am curious...

DigitalOBX

08-14-06, 03:52 PM

Just checked it, you are correct. I never saw this before, you really need to be at quite an angle to see it with white lettering..... This is a very minimal issue(if you can call it that - Quirk on most Plasma's?) on a otherwise fine plasma..... I am also going to check my Pio 4350 and see if it does this....

As Bvader stated, it might be apparent on the majority of sets....

big_marcelo

08-14-06, 08:57 PM

Right, good post.

Here's why Pioneers may not have it:

The 50" NEC has this "problem," 42" NEC does not.

I'd like to see pics of the new 42" taken from an angle, preferably of white letters on black background usually found at the end of movies, etc.

Here are more pics of the Panasonic reflections:
I view my XR5 from a 30-40 degree angle, and I haven't noticed any relfections....

big_marcelo

08-14-06, 09:00 PM

I just rembered something that may be of use. I have found for my setup I get the greatest success by turning on the Panel First before the source. YMMV ... I have some theories on this but I am sure they are just that.
Actually, I always have the VP30 on first, follwed by the amp, followed by the NEC .... I never had any problems that way .....

bvader

08-14-06, 09:17 PM

Actually, I always have the VP30 on first, follwed by the amp, followed by the NEC .... I never had any problems that way .....
its my STB box that causes the issue for me...it may take a little trail and error...all our setups are probably a little different

DigitalOBX

08-14-06, 09:32 PM

I view my XR5 from a 30-40 degree angle, and I haven't noticed any relfections....

Like Bvader stated - put your ear against the panel + look at the panel at 160-180 degree angle with a motionless picture with white lettering w/a black background... you will most likely see a faded ghost image of the lettering behind the white lettering....this is no big deal.....just a quirk and probaly most plasmas have it....I have not check my PIO yet.....

bvader

08-14-06, 09:39 PM

Like Bvader stated - put your ear against the panel + look at the panel at 160-180 degree angle with a motionless picture with white lettering w/a black background... you will most likely see a faded ghost image of the lettering behind the white lettering....this is no big deal.....just a quirk and probaly most plasmas have it....I have not check my PIO yet.....

I feel like we are doing the.....

Can you see the image of President Lincoln in the Peanut Butter Sandwich!!!...

or the...

If you stare at it long enough you''ll be able to see the 3D image of the giant fish!

thing.. :D

DigitalOBX

08-14-06, 09:53 PM

I feel like we are doing the.....

Can you see the image of President Lincoln in the Peanut Butter Sandwich!!!...

or the...

If you stare at it long enough you''ll be able to see the 3D image of the giant fish!

thing.. :D

When I was looking at the NEC, my wife said "what are you doing" ....I am looking for ghosts, my plasma is haunted :D

c627627

08-14-06, 10:21 PM

c627627

08-14-06, 10:25 PM

Just make sure the camera correctly captures it, these are pics of the same set, but it's only visible on one of them:

muttt

08-15-06, 07:26 AM

I wasn't able to see it on my 42". I watched white-on-black credits (Entourage) and both let it run and paused it. I went from 90* to 0* to -90*....

cpcat

08-15-06, 08:00 AM

I can see the wires on mine as well as all the little electrical things if I look from the back. Do this: walk up to it, go around, look at the back side. If you see it report back. :eek: :)

haveoneolboy

08-15-06, 09:26 AM

If I get at the right angle and have enough light behind me and if I have the glass real clean I can see a person inside the TV that looks just like me. Try it. The guy will mimmick your every move!

itigap

08-15-06, 11:23 AM

Pause the screen when white credits on black background are rolling.

Then approach your 50" from an angle like in the pictures attached to post #3723 of this thread.

If you do not see this "phenomenon," please attach pics showing your 50" does not have it.
C627627,

I am sorry that this set of posts had to leak over to this thread. I tried, apparently unsuccessfully, in another thread to explain this “issue” and hoped that would put it to rest. Silly me!

This issue is not one of empirical proof or of a “defect” or anything like that. It, rather, is simply a matter of basic physic, the laws of nature that light reflects off of glass surfaces. Plasma display designs, with a few notable exceptions that started all of this, use a separate pane of glass to implement a filter layer. They do this for several reasons one being to control/reduce noticeable light reflections in the direction of the viewer to an acceptable level.

This design simply brings with it the natural consequence of multiple internal reflections from the additional glass surfaces resulting in a double image, what has been referred to here as “ghosting”. This natural phenomenon is apparent only with high contrast images and only from an oblique angle. It is a natural result of the laws of physics. Nothing more.

Pioneer must have recognized this early on and some generations ago decided to approach the filter function differently. They chose to eliminate the additional front pane of glass and substitute a thin film filter bonded or applied directly to the plasma glass. This effectively eliminated the internal reflections as well as significantly reduced the display’s weight. Sort of a twofer!

Now, this most recent year’s NEC models have adopted this bonded filter approach in their 42” set. Therefore, this model, and only this model, does not exhibit the reflections. The 50” and 60” models, however, still use a pane of glass as the filter layer. These sets, as all plasma sets having a separate filter pane, do exhibit the reflections. Perhaps this coming year all NEC displays will adopt the Pioneer approach for their filter layer. In my opinion, this is a better approach and one area in which Pioneer was better than NEC and others.

Unless viewers regularly sit way to the side, this effect is not noticeable and, therefore, not really something to get all excited about one way or the other. There are some people that may have a secondary viewing position, say from a desk, or dinning table, or kitchen, etc, which is at a rather oblique angle to the display and, therefore, for which this issue could be a significant consideration. For others it would not.

I would hope this post communicates better and perhaps can put this to rest. In my opinion, not something that needs to be beat further. But just my opinion.

Cheers, :)

Gary