Optoma HD81 1080p DLP official discussion [Text View] - Page 9

Kevin R. Anderson

10-03-06, 09:01 AM

I received my HD81 and got to spend about 8 hours playing with it. Like others, I was too taken in by the picture to spend much time calibrating and experimenting, but here are some initial observations (by way of back-ground, my last projector was the Samsung H710 720p DLP designed with input from Joe Kane).

First, I was too anxious to get it installed on the ceiling mount, so I just put it on the floor at a height of approximately 18” exactly 16 feet from the 110” diagonal screen (Carada Brilliant White). Maybe I just got lucky, but it was much easier than I had anticipated to fix the image on the existing location of my screen. I used the Accupel test signals to center the image and to check keystone. As others observed, there seems to be a lot of leeway dealing with the offset issue if you are willing to live with an inch or so of keystone.

I first put up the Accupel multiburst pattern that uses a series of increasing smaller black and white lines until they are exactly one pixel width at 1080i. This pattern tests for processing errors, edge enhancement, resolution, and 1x1 pixel mapping. I was a little disappointed at first because the single pixel-width black line seemed to intrude into the white line, but then I discovered that “edge enhancement” was on. Selecting “native” resolution and turning off all of the processing options resulted in a solid pattern with no artifacts and 1x1 pixel mapping.

Next, I put up the PLUGE pattern to set black level. With other DLPs, this is very easy because when close to the screen, it is easy to see the micro-mirrors dithering even at low light levels, and you just reduce brightness until the mirrors are full off. With the HD81, it was very difficult to see the dithering at low levels, which is a positive since it will contribute to smooth transitions in the luminance levels from black to white. Since this is the first 1080p front projector I’ve played with, this may be common in all such projectors, but a nice improvement over the 720p DLP chip nonetheless.

I put in AVIAPro using the Toshiba HD-A1 player and went to the ramp patterns (a smooth transition from full black to full white). I have never seen this pattern look so smooth with a DLP – essentially no banding whatsoever! I also tried some other patterns that previously showed macro-blocking, and again no problem with the HD81.

In looking at grayscale patterns, my impression is that the projector hits pretty close to D65 right out of the box. I have not yet calibrated grayscale using the Progressive Labs CA-6X colorimeter, so I will give a more detailed report when I do.

Finally, it was time to pop in some HD-DVDs. I had some initial trouble getting and HDCP handshake but after a little fiddling, it thereafter consistently connected without any problem. As others have mentioned, my initial impressions were the smoothness of the image (the result of greater pixel density); the three-dimensional quality of the image; the degree of color resolution, meaning the ability to distinguish the slightest change in hue and saturation – especially noticeable on faces that in reality contain a surprising spectrum of colors; and the overall “window effect” of the image.

Since Phantom was the first HD-DVD I owned, and thus the one I had watched the most, I used it to start the comparison with 720p, and I was not disappointed with the improvements in all areas. From here on out, I spent the next couple of hours watching portions of U-571, The Italian Job, Serenity, Bourne Supremacy, and Apollo 13. With all of these, I saw more details and colors than ever before, and the image was incredibly involving. At no time did I see any artifacts that detracted from the intended reality of the image. For me, the additional resolution both in image and in color were amazing when looking at faces, hair, costumes, etc. The images on the screen from the gold statues in POTO, to the wet leather in U-571, to the metal capsule in Apollo 13 took on a tactile appearance that made you feel like you could actually reach out touch the objects.

I then watched about 20 minutes of CSI: Miami. Boy, almost too much information! It was incredible how much more detail (for better and for worse) could be seen in faces over 720p. It really is something you need to see in person to appreciate.

I played a little with the iris, but need to spend more time with it. I generally left it off because I didn’t want too many variables in the mix just yet while I was doing the initial setup. As has been mentioned, it seemed to work pretty well with HDTV (at least with the PBS concert that was on) with fairly consistent luminance levels, but with movies I agree that the pumping and iris noise would be distracting. For me, the auto iris is not an essential feature, but I can see where it could be a deal-breaker for some.

In testing the fan, I set it to “high-altitude” and while there is a noticeable increase in noise, it is a fairly neutral “swoosh” sound that more easily blends into the background than other projectors I’ve heard that have a “turbine-whine” sound. At the normal setting, I found the fan to be very unobtrusive.

In my hast, I initially set a small card board box on the processor and then put the projector on the box. After an hour or so I noticed that the processor was fairly warm, so I set it off to the side, where it stayed cool for the rest of the evening.

There is some real potential with the almost infinitely adjustable gamma and color, but it will take a lot of experimenting to see what can really be done with these settings. If you like to tweak, I suspect you will never run out of options with this projector.

A caveat about my review – I don’t know if the picture quality is inherent in the move to the 1080 DLP chip or unique to the Optoma, but my initial impression is that the Optoma processor really contributes to quality of the image that may put it ahead of other 1080p DLP projectors.

While I have a long way to go in exploring the full potential of this projector, I am convinced that there is a significant difference between a 720p projector and 1080p – especially on a 110” screen – and that the Optoma really delivers.

jmorris644

10-03-06, 09:15 AM

I used the projector for about three hours last night without any spontaneous shut-downs. I have removed the scaler from the cabinet and placed it on top of the cabinet to allow for more air flow. At the end of the three hours, I felt the top of the scaler. It was warm. I felt the bottom of the scaler. It was hot.

In the past, it was right around three or four hours when I started having trouble, so I will need to have it on for a longer period of time before I am confident that moving the scaler out of the cabinet fixed things. Could someone else feel the bottom of your scaler after it has been on for a while to let me know if it gets hot. Considering how hot the scaler gets, I am surprised there are no ventilation holes in the cabinet.

Thanks

Joe

Joe,

I would have it replaced. It sounds like you have a heat sensitive component in the scaler. I have mine sitting on a chair UNDER the projector and I have had no similar issues.

Joe

takisot

10-03-06, 09:22 AM

Great review Kevin! Your last phrase got me thinking about upgrading.....

jmorris644

10-03-06, 09:50 AM

Thanks for the review Kevin. I am definately looking forward to your next review.

Joe

DIY Guy

10-03-06, 10:30 AM

Joe,

How are you coming along with your ceiling mount?

romanesq

10-03-06, 10:38 AM

18" off the ground to the screen? Wow, that is really low. A foot and half off the ground is not very high at all.

Nice review and please go ahead and tinker with the auto iris and let us know you have the updated firmware when you do get to it.

Mike_in_FL

10-03-06, 11:01 AM

Kevin,

Glad to hear that your HD81 arrived! Am I forgiven for ruining your Saturday now? ;)

Mike

Kevin R. Anderson

10-03-06, 11:16 AM

millerwill

10-03-06, 12:30 PM

A caveat about my review – I don’t know if the picture quality is inherent in the move to the 1080 DLP chip or unique to the Optoma, but my initial impression is that the Optoma processor really contributes to quality of the image that may put it ahead of other 1080p DLP projectors.

Kevin, thanks for the great review! Makes me even more disappointed that I can't fit this pj in my room. Re your comment above about the 81's external processor, I suppose this would apply to any of the good external video processors, right? I.e., that they seem to make for a significant improvement in the PQ. It will be very interesting to see if the upcoming Sharp, BenQ (and Infocus and Samsung?) 1-chip 1080p dlp's, with their internal processors, are as effective.

Mike_in_FL

10-03-06, 02:08 PM

Certainly Mike!

They mailed it to my business address instead of my home address. I actually got a lot of work done around the house while waiting and my excitment level was just that much higher on Monday when it arrived.

My only real complaint is that essentially everyone who buys this projector is going to need a 15-30' serial cable to make it work. I wish they would have included such in the box. I think a lot of buyers will be frustrated while they try to come up with some way to connect the projector on one end of the room and the processor on the other end via the included 6' serial cable. It would be well worth an extra $10 to include a 30' cable.

Right now, the projector and processor are on the floor until I can get the cable built (I wanted to wait for the Optoma serial cable to make sure I wired mine correctly).
I agree - I can't see many people being able to use the 6' cable that's in the box. A 30' HDMI cable would be nice too...

Like you, I first hooked up the projector on the floor with the provided cables, just to make sure everything was working ok. I did make up my 35' serial cable in advance though. When it seemed that there was no hope that the PJ would arrive on Saturday morning, I decided I would at least busy myself with making up the cable, especially since I had paid for Saturday delivery on the components. As you have no doubt found by now, it is a standard null modem configuration, so happily it was correct and I did not have to re-do it.

To whomever posted about using Cat 5 cable with the DB9 adapters from Cablewholesale, thanks! That worked out really well.

Mike

big*brett

10-03-06, 02:29 PM

In my case 30' cables would do no good. I need 40' cables because of high ceilings. Those who need shorter cables (say 15') would probably not want to deal with the extra 15' of length in a 30' cable. I think including short cables makes sense. They are cheap and people can get there projectors running in a test config in many cases with the included cables. Including longer cables would certainly increase their cost (esp. the HDMI cable) and one length would clearly not work for all installations.

I do think it would be a good idea to separately offer several cable packages of various lengths that packaged the HDMI and serial cables together. As long as you know the length of the run you could order this together along with the projector. Of course one can always source this thing separately too but in my case I had to purchase from two additional vendors to get the appropriate cables.

Anyways, can't wait to get my projector. My unit was shipped yesterday and I should receive Wednesday or Thursday! :)

Brett

Joe Linn

10-03-06, 02:43 PM

wolfyncsu7

10-03-06, 03:38 PM

Kevin,

You said you notice a big improvement over 720p. Just out of curiosity, how far back do you usually sit from your 110" screen?

I probably won't make the jump to 1080p myself (from an H77) until late next year at the earliest, but I've been curious how big the jump in quality will be.

Rob Tomlin

10-03-06, 05:43 PM

Kevin, thank you for an excellent initial review! I'm happy to see someone post a review who has gone from a 720p DLP to 1080p DLP, since that is the upgrade path I will be taking as well (although I am still considering LCoS). I have never really felt that my current pj is lacking in resolution at 720p. I am more interested in other areas to improve, such as dithering, color reproduction (I hate the "clay" faces that I often get), and brightness. It's nice to hear that not only are these areas improved on, but the increased resolution makes a noticeable difference as well.

Are you ISF certified? Your test equipment leads me to believe that you might be.

Looking forward to your additional comments after spending more time with the HD81.

Rob Tomlin

10-03-06, 05:47 PM

Why is it that Optoma designed the scaler to be connected with a serial cable to the pj? Why not just an HDMI cable?

My DWIN has a single DVI cable from the scaler box to the pj and works great.

jmorris644

10-03-06, 05:50 PM

Why is it that Optoma designed the scaler to be connected with a serial cable to the pj? Why not just an HDMI cable?

My DWIN has a single DVI cable from the scaler box to the pj and works great.

My guess would be to separate control signals from video signals. More or less a design choice. On your DWIN, do you aim the remote at the projector to turn it on/off?

Joe

Rob Tomlin

10-03-06, 06:29 PM

My guess would be to separate control signals from video signals. More or less a design choice. On your DWIN, do you aim the remote at the projector to turn it on/off?

Joe

The Dwin has a remote sensor on both the head unit and the scaler box.

romanesq

10-03-06, 06:37 PM

My guess would be to separate control signals from video signals. More or less a design choice. On your DWIN, do you aim the remote at the projector to turn it on/off?

Joe

But I thought part of the marketing advantage was the idea that one cable went from the scaler to the unit. Now it turns out it's two cables?

Odd.

jmorris644

10-03-06, 06:56 PM

The Dwin has a remote sensor on both the head unit and the scaler box.

That is probably why you don't need a command cable with the DWIN. The projector receives it's own IR. I am pretty sure the scaler on the HD81 has the only IR so it controls the projector.

Joe

jmorris644

10-03-06, 06:57 PM

But I thought part of the marketing advantage was the idea that one cable went from the scaler to the unit. Now it turns out it's two cables?

Odd.

I was always under the impression it was two cables. I know some people at times mentioned a single cable solution but I think it was in topics specifically referring to video signals. ie; the scaler has all of the inputs.

Joe

Rob Tomlin

10-03-06, 08:49 PM

But I thought part of the marketing advantage was the idea that one cable went from the scaler to the unit. Now it turns out it's two cables?

Odd.

I was under the same impression. I'm disappointed because it would be somewhat of a pain to try and fish the additional wire through my wall and ceiling.

Kevin R. Anderson

10-03-06, 11:29 PM

You said you notice a big improvement over 720p. Just out of curiosity, how far back do you usually sit from your 110" screen?

With my three prior 720p projectors, I sat back 14-15 feet. With the projector on the floor, I had to move my center home theater chair and I move it up off to the side at 10 feet -- WOW. I couldn't sit this close with 720p but I see no pixel structure at this distance and its like jumping to a much bigger screen. I may have to rearrange my entire room.

I really went back and forth with the upgrade to 1080p. I had calibrated some 1080p rear-projection sets, and while they looked great, the difference at that size (50-60") was not significant, but at 110" it is worth the jump. I really think 720p is great for upconverted DVDs and watching ABC and FOX HDTV at native 720p, but if you are going to make the jump to high-definition DVDs or you have access to quality HD via a TIVO, 1080p on a screen of 90 inches or more is the way to go.

Kevin R. Anderson

10-03-06, 11:32 PM

Are you ISF certified? Your test equipment leads me to believe that you might be.

Yes, I am ISF certified and I do professional calibrations on a part-time basis. After buying the equipment and taking the class, it is at best a break-even business venture, but few things are more satisfying to me than maximizing the image quality of a display device.

marcusadolfsson

10-03-06, 11:34 PM

Any further updates on Optoma's anamorpic lens kit? When can we expect this to be available?

Rob Tomlin

10-03-06, 11:46 PM

Yes, I am ISF certified and I do professional calibrations on a part-time basis. After buying the equipment and taking the class, it is at best a break-even business venture, but few things are more satisfying to me than maximizing the image quality of a display device.

Excellent. Not to discount others opinions at all, but this does give you more credibility when it comes to objectively evaluating picture quality.

Have you seen the Ruby or Pearl? If so, why did you decide to go with the Optoma over those pj's?

Kevin R. Anderson

10-03-06, 11:49 PM

I was always under the impression it was two cables. I know some people at times mentioned a single cable solution but I think it was in topics specifically referring to video signals. ie; the scaler has all of the inputs.
The Optoma only requires one video cable, which is still an improvement. For a while, I was running a s-video, component, and HDMI cable to front projector installs just to cover all the bases. It is an improvement to need one HDMI cable with a processor that can handle all other possible video connections, including composite (I'm going to pull out my old Laser Disc player and see what the processor can do for my LD collection).

That being said, anyone considering this projector will need to run a CAT-5 cable (one of the easiest cables to run) with appropriate adaptors on each end. Maybe there is a possibiity of a wireless solution that would eliminate the cable.

weatherby

10-04-06, 12:05 AM

Kevin R. Anderson

10-04-06, 12:07 AM

Have you seen the Ruby or Pearl? If so, why did you decide to go with the Optoma over those pj's?

I think the main benefit of ISF is that you see how a properly calibrated display device should look (nothing like what you see on the showroom floor) and the theory and techniques of how to do it, but ISF isn't the only way to get this knowlege.

I thought a lot about the Pearl -- especially with its lower price. Personally, I like the punch and sharpness of the DLP image while others prefer the smooth, film-like look of the SXRD technology. I saw the HD81 at CES last January and was just blown away -- my favorite demo of any projector under $50k. I've also calibrated a lot of Optomas and was always impressed with how good they could look for the price. Finally, I thought the included processor was a nice plus and worth the price differential between the Optoma and the Sony.

Choosing between the Sony and the Optoma may be a little like deciding what is better - steak or lobster. Both are excellent and which one you chose comes down to a matter of taste (and money).

Kevin R. Anderson

10-04-06, 12:31 AM

In case I use the Optoma in my new theater I need to run the appropriate wires now. I'm already running the hdmi cable. Where can I buy a 30' + length of a serial cable or what are the appropriate connectors if I use a Cat5 cable?
Thanks.
Run the CAT-5 cable; add the RJ45 network connector (looks like a big telephone connector); and then use something like this RJ45 to DB9 adaptor DB9 Adaptor (http://www.pccables.com/01910.htm) to connect the CAT-5 to the projector and processor.

guitarman

10-04-06, 02:49 AM

I think the main benefit of ISF is that you see how a properly calibrated display device should look (nothing like what you see on the showroom floor) and the theory and techniques of how to do it, but ISF isn't the only way to get this knowlege.

I thought a lot about the Pearl -- especially with its lower price. Personally, I like the punch and sharpness of the DLP image while others prefer the smooth, film-like look of the SXRD technology. I saw the HD81 at CES last January and was just blown away -- my favorite demo of any projector under $50k. I've also calibrated a lot of Optomas and was always impressed with how good they could look for the price. Finally, I thought the included processor was a nice plus and worth the price differential between the Optoma and the Sony.

Choosing between the Sony and the Optoma may be a little like deciding what is better - steak or lobster. Both are excellent and which one you chose comes down to a matter of taste (and money).

I have the Accupel & Colorfacts. But the HD81 didn't need much help. The Accupel is great for setting contrast and brightness for HDTV couldn't live with out it. :)

tjgar

10-04-06, 07:38 AM

I must say that my current mits DLP rated at 2100 lum looks dimmer than my friends Pani AE700 rated much lower. I still think that my overall picture is much better. Contrast and blacks. especially.But I need a darker room the he does. Same goes for my other friend who has a Sony vpl HS51. seems brighter also. All three units are about the same age and usage. I was wondering about the brightness differences, I read some places that the calibrated levels for the 81 were only 300 to 400 lumens, that seems pretty low for a 1300-1400 lum pj. I think the main benefit of ISF is that you see how a properly calibrated display device should look (nothing like what you see on the showroom floor) and the theory and techniques of how to do it, but ISF isn't the only way to get this knowlege.

I thought a lot about the Pearl -- especially with its lower price. Personally, I like the punch and sharpness of the DLP image while others prefer the smooth, film-like look of the SXRD technology. I saw the HD81 at CES last January and was just blown away -- my favorite demo of any projector under $50k. I've also calibrated a lot of Optomas and was always impressed with how good they could look for the price. Finally, I thought the included processor was a nice plus and worth the price differential between the Optoma and the Sony.

Choosing between the Sony and the Optoma may be a little like deciding what is better - steak or lobster. Both are excellent and which one you chose comes down to a matter of taste (and money).

Mark Lem

10-04-06, 08:06 AM

I know the answer is buried in this thread somewhere, but if someone can answer off top of their head...

Does the external processor have a standard output connection to the head, allowing it to be used with other PJ's?

jmorris644

10-04-06, 08:30 AM

In case I use the Optoma in my new theater I need to run the appropriate wires now. I'm already running the hdmi cable. Where can I buy a 30' + length of a serial cable or what are the appropriate connectors if I use a Cat5 cable?
Thanks.

Mark answered your question but I also wanted to mention...Do yourself a favor and run some 2 inch pvc pipe to your projector location too. You will not regret it.

Joe

jmorris644

10-04-06, 08:33 AM

Kevin R. Anderson

10-04-06, 08:55 AM

Do yourself a favor and run some 2 inch pvc pipe to your projector location too. You will not regret it.
Great suggestion to run a conduit for pulling wires. This is what the pros use Carlon Resi-Gard (http://www.hometech.com/techwire/resigard.html?gclid=COCX-by634cCFQkfYAodhkGLog#resigard)

It is preferable to PVC pipe because it meets electrical and fire codes, and the fact that it is flexible makes it easier to work with. It even comes with a nylon cord inside the tube (pull tape) so that it is easy to pull through the cables.

musicphile

10-04-06, 10:51 AM

Hello,
to the current owners of the HD81, would you be able to locate a 16x9 screen with its top edge right by the ceiling (well effectively 3" below owing to the black border) with a ceiling mounted HD81? The screen size I am talking about is 110" wide, room is long. For e.g., when I look at Runco's definition of vertical offset of 100%, it means +/- 50% vertical offset from the center of the screen. Meaning, as long as the center of the ceiling mounted projector lens is within the top (or bottom) of the screen one is projecting, it'll be fine. Does the +/- 36% for HD81 mean that you need the center of the lens be at least 14% screen height below the top of the screen (if so, it'll be no problem for me)? Or, does it mean something totally different?
Thanks.
P.S. My goal is to maximize the distance (height) from the floor to the bottom end of the screen. The screen wall (ceiling) height is ~ 100" after the finished suspended ceiling. So, if the top of the screen needs to be 14% of screen height below the center of the lens (and also more so by about 6" min; as the center of the lens will not be flush with the ceiling), then HD81 cannot be an option for me. My room is long enough, so zooming is not a constratint, although I prefer it ceiling mounted as close to the screen to maximize brightness. Thanks again.

jmorris644

10-04-06, 11:28 AM

Kevin R. Anderson

10-04-06, 11:45 AM

Would you be able to locate a 16x9 screen with its top edge right by the ceiling (well effectively 3" below owing to the black border) with a ceiling mounted HD81?
The short answer is no, unless you are willing to accept keystone issues.

To determine screen height, take the distance from the screen to the projector lens, multiply it by .1095 (the tangent of 6.25 degrees) and that is how much lower (for a ceiling mount) that the top of the screen needs to be from the center of the lens.

For example, my HD81 is 16' or 192" from my 110" diagonal screen. 192 inches x .1095 = 21 inches.

Therefore, the top of my screen must be 21 inches lower than the lens to avoid any keystone issues.

Yes, this is a larger offset than most projectors and it means the screen will be much closer to the floor than with other models. No one likes it, but life is full of compromises.

Joe Linn

10-04-06, 11:51 AM

P.S. My goal is to maximize the distance (height) from the floor to the bottom end of the screen. The screen wall (ceiling) height is ~ 100" after the finished suspended ceiling. So, if the top of the screen needs to be 14% of screen height below the center of the lens (and also more so by about 6" min; as the center of the lens will not be flush with the ceiling), then HD81 cannot be an option for me. My room is long enough, so zooming is not a constratint, although I prefer it ceiling mounted as close to the screen to maximize brightness. Thanks again.

There are a couple of options you can consider if you'd like to go the with HD81. It is possible to mount the screen higher than the required 36.2% offset without keystoning by tilting both the projector and screen by the same amount. To completely eliminate the offset and have the top of the screen level with the lens, you would need to tip the projector upwards about 6 degrees and tilt the screen forward by 6 degrees. Joe Morris and I developed a spreadsheet that allows you to compute the tilt required to mount the screen at various heights. I don't have the link to it handy. It is somewhere in the 70 pages of this thread. Joe, could you post the link again?

I had planned to tilt the screen and the projector. I got the projector on Saturday and started experimenting. I am using a 119" diagonal (104" wide) 16:9 screen. I found that with the screen mounted without any tilt about 7" below the lens, I only had about 1" of keystoning. The border of the screen completely masked that. I couldn't detect anything in the image itself. That is how I mounted the projector and screen for now. I am very happy with the image. It is always possible I may change it some day, but for now, I think it looks great!

One of the nice things about the HD81 is how bright it is. It will more than bright enough for your 110" wide screen. That screen size would rule out a lot of projectors that aren't as bright. For instance, the reviews I have seen of the Ruby and Pearl recommend against using them on that size screen.

Joe

guitarman

10-04-06, 11:51 AM

tjgar

10-04-06, 12:11 PM

A 106" screen should be 52"x92"/144==about 33.2 sq feet= 922 lumens
that sounds about the same the Pearl has been getting. Could that be correct?
I wonder if any has done an a/b with the two projectors?

Thanks
tony
Actually I messed up in my calculations in my review thread where I said 900lumens.

I use a light meter for lumens checking and I got 27.75ft-candles. I use a 106" diag screen 39.9sqft.

Soooo 27.75 X 39.9= 1108lumens, that's bright mode/Iris open.

MrHifi

10-04-06, 12:31 PM

Kevin,

You mentioned that "my HD81 is 16' or 192" from my 110" diagonal screen." Are you at the least amount of zoon? If the front of the lens has to be at 16' with the lowest amount of zoom, then the 1.85 figure is incorrect. I hope you tell me that you are not at the closest point to the screen you can place the projector. If so, I will have a brand new one to sell. I have been using Tom's results and the 1.85 to figure out whether the projector would fit in the 16'6" I have to work with. My projector should arrive today. If it does not fit, I will offer it for sale tomorrow. I wish my room wre a foot wider. It is over 70 feet long. My screen has been on that wall since the late '80's.

dp70

10-04-06, 12:43 PM

How's the deinterlacing performance of the scaler? Is it as effective as Sage/Faroudja DCDi for interlaced sources like the famous "waving flag" test?

Kevin R. Anderson

10-04-06, 01:24 PM

Are you at the least amount of zoom?
Using the Optoma distance calculator (click here) (http://www.optomausa.com/distancecalculator.asp) (select HD81 (STD) as the model), the min/max distance for a 110" diagonal screen is 14.8 to 17.7 feet, so 16.25 feet should be right in the center of the zoom range. This is consistent with my experience with my zoom being just off of center. I hope this makes you feel better about your purchase.

MrHifi

10-04-06, 01:34 PM

Kevin,

You just made my day. Now if UPS would get it here.

Thanks my friend,

Art

Mike_in_FL

10-04-06, 01:39 PM

Kevin R. Anderson

10-04-06, 01:55 PM

How's the deinterlacing performance of the scaler? Is it as effective as Sage/Faroudja DCDi for interlaced sources like the famous "waving flag" test?
I viewed the "waiving flag scene" on DVE and thought it never looked smoother. My opinion from reading on the Gennum processor is that it is a big step up from DCDi.

rogo

10-04-06, 02:29 PM

Yes, this is a larger offset than most projectors and it means the screen will be much closer to the floor than with other models. No one likes it, but life is full of compromises.

Kevin, I appreciate your valuable help for people here a great deal.

I just want to slightly refute something. [b]Some of us love it[b]. We have a ceiling of height X. We want to place the projector on it as unobtrusively as possible. We have become spoiled watching movies at or close to eye level thanks to stadium seating and our low-slung entertainment center for the TV.

After living with a plasma above the fireplace for 6 months, I'm done looking up at the screen. I'd rather have a long leader on my projector screen and get it down low enough that it barely clears the coffee table. I wish there was a practical cost projector with an even more aggressive offset to be honest.

For our room, we were hoping to get a Pearl, but without a telescoping mount or a ceiling retractor, it'll be too high. The "more expensive" Optoma might actually meet our needs better by letting us do a fixed installation.

musicphile

10-04-06, 02:50 PM

Thanks to Joe, Kevin & Joe for answering my screen and ceiling mount question.

guitarman

10-04-06, 03:14 PM

Kevin R. Anderson

10-04-06, 03:14 PM

Hey Rogo:
It's good to know that it actually serves some folks needs. I have a somewhat similar issue in that my center speaker is only about 2 feet off the floor (it was mounted in 1992 when I had my first Zenith front projector on a 4:3 screen). The Optoma will actually put the screen just above my center speaker so there will now be a closer correlation between the image and sound source.

As an installer, a lot of people want a projector with a small or zero offset for a reason that is not initially obvious to people like us "videophiles" on the AVS Forum. If you have zero offset, people can actually walk pretty close to the screen without their head casting a shadow. Most dedicated home theaters have stadium seating in the back and then an open area up front for the kids and bean bag chairs (maybe this is just a Utah thing). With kids jumping up and down and running around, the zero offset minimizes the disruption to other viewers in the back because the screen is higher on the wall and no shadows are cast.

velvetpoet

10-04-06, 03:24 PM

I think the lumens is uncalibrated pearl compared to calibrated hd81.

Pearl should drop to around 700 or less depending on zoom.

tjgar

10-04-06, 03:27 PM

I read it on the pearl tread it was "jason" also cine4home said 950 uncalibrated.
I just want to know what will be brighter on my F_Hauk 115".

Thanks
Tny Garippo/ SVACFixed it, lol I keep messing up my sqft count. The Pearl is 900lumens who tested it?

HoustonHoyaFan

10-04-06, 03:50 PM

I think the lumens is uncalibrated pearl compared to calibrated hd81.

Pearl should drop to around 700 or less depending on zoom.
Jason measured the Pearl at d65 calibrated 798 lumens , cine4home got d65 700 lumens on a pre-prod unit.

weatherby

10-04-06, 03:57 PM

What are the lumens for the HD81 calibrated??

millerwill

10-04-06, 03:57 PM

So the Pearl--in high lamp mode and as close to the screen as possible--produces ~ 800 lumens, calibrated, and the HD-81 produces ~ 950 or so calibrated lumens (high or low lamp power?). It actually doesn't seem like that much difference.

millerwill

10-04-06, 04:10 PM

Can someone comment on how close to the back wall the HD-81 can be (with a ceiling mounting)? I.e., are there air intake exhaust ports there? (Still fighting to see if I can fit the thing in!)

Ted_Briggs

10-04-06, 04:47 PM

I too am in the low ceiling club with only 8' to play with. I was wondering how much it is possible to cheat on the offset by using the keystone compensation adjustment. The datasheet lists this as 5 degrees either way so that would seem to me you could reduce the effective offset to 1.25 degrees if needed. Is there some drawback to this I should be aware of?

jmorris644

10-04-06, 04:51 PM

Ted_Briggs

10-04-06, 05:18 PM

jmorris644

10-04-06, 05:24 PM

I have read several of his posts and it wasn't clear to me that he had used this setting to compensate for the keystone or if it was just small enough that he did not think it a problem. It seems to me if you factor in the range of the adjustment the offset should be a non-issue in all but the most extreme cases, but the number of posts on it made me wonder. Looks like this PJ will continue to be at the top of my list. :) Glad to see it looking as good in people's hands as at the trade shows.

Yes, There was a LOT of consternation (myself included) prior to anyone getting their hands on the actual projector. So far Joe Linn is the only respondent that I am aware of that has tilted his projector independent of any tilt of the screen. He says, if I remember correctly, that he has effectively reduced his offset by 2/3 of the 36.2% requirement. This reduction in offset has produced a 1 inch keystone of which he has not used the keystone offsetting capability in the projector to eliminate. In his implementation his masking "hides" the visibility of the edges of his image so he cannot see the keystoning and he visually cannot see the effect of the keystoning in the image itself regarding the focus.

Joe

Joe Linn

10-04-06, 05:30 PM

I have read several of his posts and it wasn't clear to me that he had used this setting to compensate for the keystone or if it was just small enough that he did not think it a problem. It seems to me if you factor in the range of the adjustment the offset should be a non-issue in all but the most extreme cases, but the number of posts on it made me wonder. Looks like this PJ will continue to be at the top of my list. :) Glad to see it looking as good in people's hands as at the trade shows.

I didn't use the keystone adjustment. It is a digital adjustment so it needs to scale the image and would reduce resolution. When I first read about the keystone adjustment, I wasn't sure if it was digital or optical. Since it is digital, I did not use it. I have the screen about 7" below the lens. At that distance, the top of the screen is about 1" wider than the bottom. That is a small enough amount that it is hidden by the screen's black border. I haven't noticed any keystone distortion in the image itself.

Joe

jmorris644

10-04-06, 05:36 PM

I didn't use the keystone adjustment. It is a digital adjustment so it needs to scale the image and would reduce resolution. When I first read about the keystone adjustment, I wasn't sure if it was digital or optical. Since it is digital, I did not use it. I have the screen about 7" below the lens. At that distance, the top of the screen is about 1" wider than the bottom. That is a small enough amount that it is hidden by the screen's black border. I haven't noticed any keystone distortion in the image itself.

Joe

Ah, there you are!! I was trying my best to put words in your mouth :)

Joe

DIY Guy

10-04-06, 05:48 PM

millerwill

10-04-06, 05:51 PM

Can someone say what the vents of the back of the pj are? Air intake, or exhaust? And does the manual say how close the back can be to the rear wall? TIA

jmorris644

10-04-06, 05:57 PM

jmorris644,

Have you mounted your projector? Interested to know if you went with the vertical mount and mirror setup or horizontal ceiling mount with tilt. I have 80 inch ceilings and would like any details you would share.

Thanks,

I have not mounted the projector yet but 5 of us sat down and evaluated the mirror concept. Using mirrors we could accomplish physically moving the projector but it would not eliminate the offset requirement without introducing a keystoning effect. So it became of minimal practical use.

At this point I have eliminated a mirror concept as part of my solution as it provided no additional benefit to the efforts that Joe Linn is doing. I am optomistic with the findings from Joe Linn though. His ceiling is 86 inches and mine is 88 inches.

80 inches will be tough. You really have 6'8" ceilings?

What size image are you attempting to project? Have you looked at the Optoma calculator that kevin referenced a few posts back?

Joe

guitarman

10-04-06, 06:16 PM

Can someone comment on how close to the back wall the HD-81 can be (with a ceiling mounting)? I.e., are there air intake exhaust ports there? (Still fighting to see if I can fit the thing in!)

The back vent is mostly blocked off. I wouldn't consider it a vent. The main intake vent is on the side, probably some small ones on the bottom also. You could back the PJ to the wall, you'll still be an inch or so away because of the cable ends.

millerwill

10-04-06, 06:25 PM

The back vent is mostly blocked off. I wouldn't consider it a vent. The main intake vent is on the side, probably some small ones on the bottom also. You could back the PJ to the wall, you'll still be an inch or so away because of the cable ends.

Wow, this is beginning to sound like I might be able to squeeze it in with a 119" diag screen. The calculator says that this size screen needs a 16.0 ft throw, the pj is 1 ft deep, and my room if 17.25 ft long! So if the pj is flush back against the wall, that leaves ~ 3" width for the screen! Talk about shoehorning it in! (Of course I could go for a screen a couple of inches smaller, but ... .)

DIY Guy

10-04-06, 06:36 PM

80 inches will be tough. You really have 6'8" ceilings?

Hi Joe,

Yep, basement theater with a 90 inch wide screen. I ran the numbers through Kevin's calculator and it's doable, but it's nice to have real world application to compare to.

I currently use this same principle with my NEC LT-150. The offset is not as steep as the Optoma, but I also needed to compensate for the 4:3 DMD to work with my 16:9 setup. So, all in all, I think I can get it to work.

jmorris644

10-04-06, 06:39 PM

Hi Joe,

Yep, basement theater with a 90 inch wide screen. I ran the numbers through Kevin's calculator and it's doable, but it's nice to have real world application to compare to.

I currently use this same principle with my NEC LT-150. The offset is not as steep as the Optoma, but I also needed to compensate for the 4:3 DMD to work with my 16:9 setup. So, all in all, I think I can get it to work.

If you can, this projector will blow you away. bar none, everyone taht has stopped by to see it is amazed.

Joe

slackmack

10-04-06, 06:47 PM

For those using the Chief ceiling mount, does the mount allow you to install the pj at a slight tilt or must the installation be flat on the ceiling?

millerwill

10-04-06, 06:56 PM

Do any of you that have the HD-81 use a Firehawk screen? Is it bright enough for a 120" FH?

guitarman

10-04-06, 07:01 PM

Chief mounts angle all over the place.

MCBRacer

10-04-06, 07:05 PM

Do any of you that have the HD-81 use a Firehawk screen? Is it bright enough for a 120" FH?

I am about to receive my HD81 and have been convinced by Stewart Filmscreen that the new Firehawk G3 screen material is a perfect match for this PJ. I will be throwing to a 120 inch cinecurve (2.35:1).

weatherby

10-04-06, 07:57 PM

I would be using a 123" FireHawk G3 as well. I am a littlet concerned there may not be enough foot lamberts with that combination. Anyone have an opinoin?

Rob Tomlin

10-04-06, 08:28 PM

Using the Optoma distance calculator (click here) (http://www.optomausa.com/distancecalculator.asp) (select HD81 (STD) as the model), the min/max distance for a 110" diagonal screen is 14.8 to 17.7 feet, so 16.25 feet should be right in the center of the zoom range. This is consistent with my experience with my zoom being just off of center. I hope this makes you feel better about your purchase.

Ugh. You had to remind me of this issue, didn't you Kevin!

Offset is no problem for me with my 10 foot ceiling. The throw distance is definitely an issue.

My room is 19 feet long, and I'm using a 123" diagonal screen. The calculator says the minimum distance for the pj is 16.5 feet. Add a foot for the pj, I will have about 18 inches to spare.

I will have to go look closely at my HT tonight to see if that could even conceivably work. I do have a soffit that sticks out about a foot from the wall as well, which complicates matters even further.

If it won't work, I will have to stop reading this thread before I drive myself crazy! :eek:

dmaument

10-04-06, 09:21 PM

I am about to receive my HD81 and have been convinced by Stewart Filmscreen that the new Firehawk G3 screen material is a perfect match for this PJ. I will be throwing to a 120 inch cinecurve (2.35:1).

Congrats on the new PJ, unfortunately I was a day late as AVS has no inventory nor will comment on when the next shipment will be.

Jason Turk

10-04-06, 09:26 PM

Not that I am not going to comment...I don't know yet unfortunately. :) I will post when I know they are enroute.

Mike_in_FL

10-04-06, 09:32 PM

Do any of you that have the HD-81 use a Firehawk screen? Is it bright enough for a 120" FH?
Bill,
I have a 110" (diag) Firehawk, and the HD81 is plenty bright in low lamp mode. My room is not fully light controlled, and it is still watchable when there is a lamp on in the room and even in the daytime (except for darker scenes) when there is significant ambient light.

Mike

Mike_in_FL

10-04-06, 09:44 PM

Ugh. You had to remind me of this issue, didn't you Kevin!

Offset is no problem for me with my 10 foot ceiling. The throw distance is definitely an issue.

My room is 19 feet long, and I'm using a 123" diagonal screen. The calculator says the minimum distance for the pj is 16.5 feet. Add a foot for the pj, I will have about 18 inches to spare.

I will have to go look closely at my HT tonight to see if that could even conceivably work. I do have a soffit that sticks out about a foot from the wall as well, which complicates matters even further.

If it won't work, I will have to stop reading this thread before I drive myself crazy! :eek:

Rob,

If it helps, my room is also about 19' long, although I am only throwing a 110" diagonal image. I chose to mount the PJ around the middle of the throw, ie 16-16.5'. I just measured it, and I have almost exactly 18" clearance from the rear of the PJ to the back wall. As Tom mentioned, you only need around 3" for the cables, so you should have around 3" to spare! All the exhaust appears to vent to the side, with the intake on the opposite side.

Good luck!
Mike

Rob Tomlin

10-04-06, 10:28 PM

Rob,

If it helps, my room is also about 19' long, although I am only throwing a 110" diagonal image. I chose to mount the PJ around the middle of the throw, ie 16-16.5'. I just measured it, and I have almost exactly 18" clearance from the rear of the PJ to the back wall. As Tom mentioned, you only need around 3" for the cables, so you should have around 3" to spare! All the exhaust appears to vent to the side, with the intake on the opposite side.

Good luck!
Mike

Thanks Mike. How does the pj look mounted that far back? Is it noticeable? Does it look out of place? I guess this is one area where the offset is an advantage, since the pj will be pretty close to the ceiling and therefore not be as noticeable.

I will be measuring later tonight.

Kevin R. Anderson

10-04-06, 11:44 PM

guitarman

10-05-06, 12:01 AM

Plus we got excellent optics. :)

millerwill

10-05-06, 12:45 AM

Bill,
I have a 110" (diag) Firehawk, and the HD81 is plenty bright in low lamp mode. My room is not fully light controlled, and it is still watchable when there is a lamp on in the room and even in the daytime (except for darker scenes) when there is significant ambient light.

Mike

Mike, Thanks much for the info. If I went with a 110" FH, the throw and offset would be an easier fit, but I'm greedy to get the 120"! But in any event, it's good to hear that brightness works well for your situation.

TzungILin

10-05-06, 02:16 AM

I was reading Greg Roger's review in WSR of the Marantz VP-11S1 1080p projector that retails for $20,000. As far as I can tell, the HD81 uses the same Gennum VXP GF9351 processor as the Marantz. Rogers noted:

"Dithering noise in dark scenes was invisible from a normal viewing distance and was the best I have seen for a DLP projector. Even standing inches from the screen, dithering noise on the 1-10 IRE, 10-step luma pattern from an Accupel generator was barely discernable."

This was my experience with the HD81 I mentioned a few posts ago that the oscillation of the DLP micro-mirrors were very difficult to see on the HD81. On every other DLP projector I've calibrated (all 720p), dithering at low IREs was readily visible.

Regarding the processor, Rogers summarizes:

"Gennum's newest 10-bit VXP video processing ... deinterlaces 1080i broadcast video and 1080i film-source video exceptionally well."

While it is obviously too much to expect the $7k HD81 to perform at the same level as the $20k Marantz, it's exciting to think that they might share the same processor.

Dear Kevin,

I'm glad that you like the HD81.

To add some comment to what you wrote, Optoma HD81 and Marantz VP11S1 all use Gennum GF9351 video processor.

But, in addition to GF9351, we add an extra image and color proceessor chip after Gennum. Most of the features within Image/Advanced OSD are from this chipset. That is the advantage of a separate video processor where we could have more room (both space-wise and technology-wise) to make the best of the video processing.

Too bad, you were not at CEDIA to view the 170" 2.35 demo that I setup, it sure will give you some more ideas in HT design and layout, than the 135" 16x9 demo you saw at CES.

HiHoStevo

10-05-06, 03:01 AM

I don't know TzungILin.............

I would have been quite happy to carry the demo home from CES! :-)

135" -> 142" is about perfect for my setup..........

rogo

10-05-06, 04:57 AM

I

While it is obviously too much to expect the $7k HD81 to perform at the same level as the $20k Marantz, it's exciting to think that they might share the same processor.

Is it really too much to expect? The Marantz has better optics, no question. Beyond that, I'm not sure how much "better" stuff is part of the package.

I think the HD81 is very much "on par" with the Marantz, even if there are subtleties that make the Marantz slightly superior overall.

The Marantz will never confuse anyone with being a "best buy".

tjgar

10-05-06, 08:14 AM

You have a 7" offset, at what size screen? I could get away with a 15" offset on a 56" high screen That would be reducing the 36% offset to 27%. About how much wider do you think my bottom edge would be than my top edge?

Thanks for the help.
Tony G.
I didn't use the keystone adjustment. It is a digital adjustment so it needs to scale the image and would reduce resolution. When I first read about the keystone adjustment, I wasn't sure if it was digital or optical. Since it is digital, I did not use it. I have the screen about 7" below the lens. At that distance, the top of the screen is about 1" wider than the bottom. That is a small enough amount that it is hidden by the screen's black border. I haven't noticed any keystone distortion in the image itself.

Joe

dknight

10-05-06, 08:26 AM

Is it really too much to expect? The Marantz has better optics, no question. Beyond that, I'm not sure how much "better" stuff is part of the package.

I think the HD81 is very much "on par" with the Marantz, even if there are subtleties that make the Marantz slightly superior overall.

The Marantz will never confuse anyone with being a "best buy".
Sorry for being away from the thread for so long, but I've been out of town all week (still in Chicago but returning tonight - can't wait to watch my recorded Lost in HD!!!)

One of the things I did before I bought the HD81 was go to a local Atlanta home theater store where they have the Ruby and Marantz projecting on the same screen. I watched the same HD-DVD source (as well as other HD sources) projected through both. My basic assessment of the two:

They were both way too dim. The Marantz was a bit brighter, a bit sharper (it really does have fantastic optics), and I preferred it overall. The higher quality Gennum scaling on the Marantz really stood out.

I don't know what the Marantz streets for, but if we take an optomistic guess and say around $16k, it is still about 2.5 times what you can get the HD81 for. From my experience with both projectors, here are the areas where the two excel:

Marantz:

Slightly better optics, perhaps slightly better CR (going from Greg Rogers review), long throw lens option (but that is even more $$$), more flexible mounting options, maybe quieter but I don't recall exactly and did not measure - it is definitely not as quiet as the Ruby

HD81:

BRIGHTNESS - oh my god what a difference, flexible manual iris control (I don't consider the auto iris a feature since I don't find it usable as is), more flexible external Gennum scaler with some extra bells/whistles thrown in (see TzungILin's post above)

The most important thing is what is not in those two lists above: To me, the image quality on both is so similar that I could never see spending the money on the Marantz. The extra brightness (which probably accounts for any CR decrease on the HD81) is a huge feature. If the prices were reversed I think you'd see more people willing to pay extra for the brightness than you would seeing people pay more for the optics.

IMHO the HD81 is the best value in 1080p DLP right now by far. In many important ways it even exceeds what the $20k Marantz brings to the table. If you can fit it in your theater (and there are plenty of people like myself that don't have the offset requirements but are still making it work), then buy it. You won't be disappointed.

Congratulations, Optoma!

-Dave

dknight

10-05-06, 08:31 AM

You have a 7" offset, at what size screen? I could get away with a 15" offset on a 56" high screen That would be reducing the 36% offset to 27%. About how much wider do you think my bottom edge would be than my top edge?

Thanks for the help.
Tony G.

You have more offset than I do. I am tilting my screen about an inch forward to compensate for most of the lack of offset, but I agree with Joe that it really isn't that necessary. With black masking around the screen you won't even notice the very minor keystoning.

I don't recall exactly but I believe I've got about half of the offset I need on a 51" high screen.

-Dave

weatherby

10-05-06, 11:09 AM

I have a question on the HDMI outputs on the scaler. I will have both the projector and a plasma. Can the scaler do the hdmi switching and send to the projector and the plasma? Not at the same time of course. I see there is an hdmi output to go to the reciever but could this go to another display device like the plasma instead? Thanks for any info.

millerwill

10-05-06, 11:43 AM

Chief mounts angle all over the place.

Jason said that the Chief mount would put the center of the lens ~ 5" from the ceiling. Is there any mount that puts it closer?

MrHifi

10-05-06, 12:12 PM

I posted in the other thread but I will do so here also. I am unable to have a 1080i 60Hz sihnal recognized at the VGA input. It gives me a "NO Signal" message. Any ideas? I am running RGBHV into the VGA.

guitarman

10-05-06, 12:34 PM

guitarman

10-05-06, 12:39 PM

I've run component to VGA from my Denon 1600. RGBHV what are you sending the 1080i from? If you need tech help always call Optoma don't ask in emails.

millerwill

10-05-06, 01:09 PM

Chiefs are about the flushest mounts. You wouldn't want to use this but some used a ball and socket type mount, extending the length of it flat along the ceiling. Looks kinda strange.

Optoma has this type of mount. Theyre' really meant to hang down from the ceiling not go along it.

Thanks, Tom. I'm still going to wait 6 to 8 months and see what the other 1080p 1-chip dlp's look like, but I think that the HD-81 can at least go back on my list of 'possibles'. With all the suggestions posted here, it looks like I could shoehorn a 81 into my room (17.25 ft = 207 " long, 100" ceiling ht) to throw it onto a 118" diag Firehawk, esp since the cables to the pj can come out of the back wall; hell, I could make the hole in the back wall a bit larger and shove the pj a few inches into it!

Whether I fight with fitting in the HD-81 is going to come down to how it compares to the BenQ W10000 (I'm sure the 81 will be much brighter, which is of course nice), or an offering from Infocus or Samsung. I really do like the external VP of the 81, as most everybody does.

MrHifi

10-05-06, 01:13 PM

Tom,

I did call Optoma. They could not answer me. Said they would check. Why shouldn't we ask about technical issues. i thought that is what forums are for. In Satforums we help each other work our way through issues.

Anyway, I did some further analysis. Looks like the VGA input on the front of the 3000 box will only accept resolutions lower than 1400x1050. This means 1080i signals are a no no. I changed my source to 720P (the LG's allow you to select between RGBHV 1080i, 720P or 480i in addition to HDMI and YPbPr connections) and it came in perfectly. I sure hope that the same is not true of the BNC connections on the rear. Remember Tom, I am using RGBHV not YPrPb. I have an RCA DTC100 that I use to watch HD when the three LG's are recording HD. The RCA only outputs 1080i for HD sources and 540P for SD sources. I will try running its RGBHV into the rear RGBHV but according to the manual the 1400x1050 is the limit for "analog" sources. Of course if the manual is using "analog" to refer to VGA delivered sources, that would explain why your Denon worked in YPbPr and my analog sources will work at 1080i if I switch to the rear connectors.

Kevin R. Anderson

10-05-06, 01:15 PM

I just have to think that the rear BNC connectors will accept 1080i -- the analog component connections in the back certainly do.

MrHifi

10-05-06, 01:21 PM

Look at the chart in the book Kevin. It is pretty clear about what they call "analog" sources. I just hope it is a language issue. When my wife gets home I will rewire and find out. I need to find 5 BNC to BNC cables to find out for sure. I will know by tomorrow.

Kevin R. Anderson

10-05-06, 01:23 PM

Chiefs are about the flushest mounts.
Here is a trick I've done in installations, including my own, but you have to be willing to cut a hole in the ceiling.

First, get a ceiling medallion normally used in fan installations See Example (http://www.rensup.com/t/Ceiling_Medallions_Dtl13691.jpg) . I picked mine up at Home Depot for a few bucks.

Cut a hole in the ceiling that is small enough to be covered by the medallion.

Cut a 2x4 to fit between the joists -- this is where you will bolt the projector mount. Stack other 2x4 blocks on either side of the joist to lift the the mount up enough so that when the projector is attached, it is as close to the ceiling as you want (a couple of grabber screws and some Liquid Nails will hold them all securely.

Put up the mount and run cables, put up the medallion to cover the hole, and mount your projector. Flush mount and professional look that the wives really enjoy over seeing the black, metal mount on the ceiling.

Mike_in_FL

10-05-06, 01:53 PM

Thanks Mike. How does the pj look mounted that far back? Is it noticeable? Does it look out of place? I guess this is one area where the offset is an advantage, since the pj will be pretty close to the ceiling and therefore not be as noticeable.

I will be measuring later tonight.

Rob,
I think it looks just fine :) It is pretty unobtrusive that far back, or will be once I finish installing it and get the cables out of sight! It is not a huge unit either, so it does not dominate the room at all.

Regarding offset:
The ceiling is 8'4" where the PJ is located (tray ceiling, 9' at high point) and I find that the offset works well for me - the picture is at a very comfortable height for viewing, although I see Kevin's point about people blocking the image more easily. I realize that the 36.2% is not good for everyone, but hopefully Joe Linn's observations will be welcome news there.

Mike

Ted_Briggs

10-05-06, 02:38 PM

I didn't use the keystone adjustment. It is a digital adjustment so it needs to scale the image and would reduce resolution. When I first read about the keystone adjustment, I wasn't sure if it was digital or optical. Since it is digital, I did not use it. I have the screen about 7" below the lens. At that distance, the top of the screen is about 1" wider than the bottom. That is a small enough amount that it is hidden by the screen's black border. I haven't noticed any keystone distortion in the image itself.

Joe

Ah, this was exactly the kind of info I was looking for, thanks. I would not be happy with a digital keystone correction, especially since I will use a computer with it some. I guess I need to see if the screen would look good lower on the wall than I had planned.

MrHifi

10-05-06, 02:52 PM

Just received a call back from Optoma regarding RGBHV connector on the front of the 3000. It will not accept 1080i input. Highest it will take is 1400x1050. Good news is that the BNC's in the back will accept RGBHV 1080i not 1080p. That is good. 1080P only through HDMI. I am tring to connect the DTC100 first to make sure it works.

Fast response from Optoma. She went to the "Product Engineer" and got an answer. She says they will fix the manual in the next version.

BTW, Ted...the projector puts out a lot of heat. Make sure that when you mount it as described you have a way to dissapate the heat. looks like it is moving air through the sides and the bottom. Nothing out the back. The two openings on the bottom are not very large so I expect cooling is accomplished mainly by moving air from side to side.

guitarman

10-05-06, 03:18 PM

"If you need tech help always call Optoma don't ask in emails. "

[QUOTE=MrHifi]Tom,

I did call Optoma. They could not answer me. Said they would check. Why shouldn't we ask about technical issues. i thought that is what forums are for. In Satforums we help each other work our way through issues.

I think you missed what I meant. Don't send emails to Optoma when needing an answer to a PJ question. Best way to get results is on the phone. Nothing about posting tech questions on the web.

MrHifi

10-05-06, 04:53 PM

OK Tom,

I am having an awful time trying to run cabling to the 3000. My AV system is compltely integrated with 14 input devices which must be connected with video and audio and in some cases multiple outputs for the distribution system around the house. Many interconnect for dubbing, copying and editing. On top of all that, the DWIN Transcanner and HD-700 projector are entangled in the mess. While I am there, if anyone is interested or knows of someone who would like to play, I would be willing to let what was a $17,000.00 (at the discount price) system for $500.00. They would have to take it down and be willing to send it back to DWIN for repairs to the power supply. Cost probably less than $500.00 including shipping and parts. If you are anywhere near MD, drop me a line. I also have an HD-500 and an LD-5 that I will throw in for nothing. That one also needs a ne power supply. These would be great for a church. I am unable to move stuff around any more so I have no other choice.

Joe Linn

10-05-06, 04:56 PM

You have a 7" offset, at what size screen? I could get away with a 15" offset on a 56" high screen That would be reducing the 36% offset to 27%. About how much wider do you think my bottom edge would be than my top edge?

Thanks for the help.
Tony G.

My screen is 119" diagonal 16:9 screen (58" x 104"). With the 7" offset, the top of the image is 1" wider on each side than the bottom. The image is also slightly too short from top to bottom. The good news is that means when I zoom the image to fill the screen from top to bottom, the keystone is hidden in the black borders on the sides of the screen. One of my concerns had been whether it would be noticeable on 4:3 material where I am not filling the screen from side to side. I cannot detect it.

Joe

glenned

10-05-06, 05:03 PM

I had one more observation about the projector that I haven't seen mentioned in anyone's reviews yet. Red! I have read the UHP lamps are lacking in the red part of the spectrum and that Xenon lamps do I better job with red. The HD81 is not at all lacking in its ability to produce reds. One of the things that impresses me about this projector is the rich, deep reds it is able to produce. It is just dazzling!

Joe

Joe, not to worry. The fact that UHP is "red limited" has nothing to do with how accurate a Red can be produced from it. It has only to do with how much Red it produces compared with how much Green and Blue it makes. The correct balance of Red, Green and Blue is defined by the video standards as the color D65 White. No digital PJ lamps make D65, including Xenon lamps, which are "blue limited".

Another way to look at it is that UHP produces an excess of Green and Blue, which is filtered out to provide the correct balance of RGB to produce D65 White. The chromaticity coordinate (exact color) of the Red that the H81 makes is determined by the Red filter in its color wheel.

There are a number of PJs using mercury based lamps, such as UHP, that can be calibrated to have virtually perfect primaries, secondaries and greyscale (the things that determine color accuracy). Xenon lamps provide absolutely no superiority in as far color accuracy goes.

Xenon lamps are superior for use in film PJs, where their light shines directly through film and is projected on the screen. Not so in DLP PJs where RGB is determined by the filters that are mated to any particular light source.

That PJs with Xenon lamps are more color accurate than those with mercury based lamps is a myth propogated by the marketing departments of certain manufacturers. It has no basis in science and it reflects a lack of understanding regarding the function of the human eye/brain, the video system, and projector construction. Each year you find fewer and fewer PJs using Xenon because it takes more energy and produces more heat than mercury based lamps for the same light output, plus its more expensive.

I have not measured an HD81, and I don't know how color accurate this particular PJ is. The first few generations of digital PJs tended to have orangish-reds. This was corrected years ago and if any thing, DLPs designed for HT have slightly over-saturated Reds. It is not at all surprising to see you post that the HD81 produces a pleasing and accurate appearing Red. That would be the norm for a DLP using a UHP lamp source, as well as other PJs that use Xenon.

Glenn

Kevin R. Anderson

10-05-06, 05:41 PM

Very interesting post Glenn. The primary negative effect I've seen is that older DLPs ran out of red at high IREs, meaning that you got a "blue" shift say from 6500 Kelvins to 9000 Kelvins or higher at 80-100 IRE. The only option was to live with the blue shift or drop the contrast, which impacted the contrast ratio.

I assume an improvement in DLP filter technology has resulted in seeing less of this problem in newer projectors such that you can now calibrate a DLP to a nice, flat D65 from 20-30 IRE all the way up to 100 IRE.

I've not run a calibration yet on the HD81, so I will be interested to see the grayscale tracking and the coordinates for the primary colors. There is a special control in the menu that I'm hoping will allow you to pull the primaries closer to the NTSC/ATSC color spaces, like you can do with the Samsung H710 projector designed with input from Joe Kane for just that purpose (the HD81 does allow you to select the appropriate color space depending on the source).

glenned

10-05-06, 06:22 PM

Compared to what I was used to with DLP, I found the image on the Ruby dull and lifeless. I saw it at Ultimate Electronics, so it is entirely possible there was something very wrong with their setup.

I have calibrated a lot of DLPs and Rubys, both. I would suspect that you have surmised correctly that there was something wrong with their setup.

When I set up the Ruby, I use its DI. It has an actual measured real world on/off CR over 15K:1 after calibration. I would say that its image has similar beauty to that of DLP overall. The advantages/disadvanteges of both are well publicised on the forum and I am not trying to rehash all that here. I just can't imagine that anyone would see a properly calibrated Ruby as dull and lifeless.

I have seen many demo PJs that were set up poorly, by people who didn't know how to set even the basic settings. In my experience, which is of course limited, this is more the norm than the exception. Even most of the pro-installations I see the PJ is not set up optimumly. There are typically deficiencies that go beyond the need for calibration. Anyone can use Avia or DVE to set the basic settings in a display, and having the basic settings accurate is huge. The next time you are at an HT showroom, ask them if they know what Avia and DVE are. Just don't be shocked if they say no.

Glenn

glenned

10-05-06, 07:21 PM

The primary negative effect I've seen is that older DLPs ran out of red at high IREs, meaning that you got a "blue" shift say from 6500 Kelvins to 9000 Kelvins or higher at 80-100 IRE. The only option was to live with the blue shift or drop the contrast, which impacted the contrast ratio. ..

I've not run a calibration yet on the HD81, so I will be interested to see the grayscale tracking and the coordinates for the primary colors.

Kevin, you have hit the nail right on the head. To elaborate on Kevin's post:

Mercury based lamps produce an excess of Green and Blue when compared to D65. To illustrate this influence on the proper Contrast setting for a display, assume that you start with a properly calibrated greyscale (set to D65 from Black through White) with a typical DLP PJ. Display a 100 IRE (White) test pattern. To set the Contrast control you raise it and thus increase the output of Red, Green, and Blue light. Eventually you reach the point where the PJ is displaying all the Red it can produce. Raising the Contrast control further will cause the PJ to display the additional Green and Blue that it is able to make. Of course doing so will cause color inaccuracy at those levels and for that reason should not be done. This is the reason that calibrated on/off CRs are always lower than uncalibrated CRs. One of the results of calibration is that the PJ doesn't use the excess Green and Blue that it is able to make at 100 IRE.

The concept of a limiting color and its affect on the setting of a displays Contrast has an application in all display technologies. Phosphor based displays (CRTs and Plasmas) are able to make an excess of Blue. Xenon lamps make an excess of Red. In all cases the goal of greyscale calibration is the same. Set the display so that it has the greatest CR while still being at D65 and having the desired gamma response, while avoiding the crush of detail in the shadows and highlights.

I would be interested in reading your experiences with remapping the primaries. One word of caution. Our colorimeters are not as accurate at reading primaries as the are at reading greyscale. Their accuracy varies depending on the light source and which color you are measuring. So take your readings with a grain of salt and trust your eyes more than your meter.

Glenn

glenned

10-05-06, 07:59 PM

My screen is 119" diagonal 16:9 screen (58" x 104"). With the 7" offset, the top of the image is 1" wider on each side than the bottom. The image is also slightly too short from top to bottom. The good news is that means when I zoom the image to fill the screen from top to bottom, the keystone is hidden in the black borders on the sides of the screen. One of my concerns had been whether it would be noticeable on 4:3 material where I am not filling the screen from side to side. I cannot detect it.

Joe

I agree with Joe's approach to this problem, with some caveats.

I do the same when I find that keystoning has been employed in a pro install (which is fairly often). I remove the keystoning and let the trapazoidal image edge fall onto the velvet masking, where it is largely invisible. Without a reference, you can't tell that the image isn't rectangular.

Some caveats:

If you don't have velvet masking, as is the case with most/all drop down screens, the image edge will be visible and probably will be objectionable. This solution will probably not satisfy you.

This solution has the potential for placing the top and bottom of the screen outside the sharpest field of focus because the screen plane isn't parallel to the image plane anymore. It depends on how wide the lens's depth of optimum focus is. If the top and bottom of the image are as sharp as when compared with a "recommended" installation, then you have sacrificed nothing. You will only know if you check for this.

To illustrate the above effect, imagine a screen that can rotated around its horizontal axis in such a way that the top of the screen can be pushed back while the bottom of the screen rotates forward. If you project an image on this screen and begin rotating it, you will find that at a certain point the top and bottom of the screen have rotated out of the field of focus because the top of the screen is too far from the lens and the bottom is too close.

Frankly, I would rather live with a little bit of that than with engaging keystoning.

Glenn

MikeRich

10-05-06, 08:30 PM

Does anyone know if this PJ is in any demo rooms at retail? I am in the SF, Bay Area and I would love to see this to see if this the pj for me.

I have checked the usual suspects (magnolia and Fry's) and they don't have it yet.

Mike

MrHifi

10-05-06, 10:39 PM

Instead of watching my new HD81 here I am writing this. Why? Because I am now disappointed. The BNC connections do not handle 1080i. Take that to the bank regardless of what Optoma's so called "product engineer" said this afternoon. Really sad. If like me you own equipment that requirs an RGBHV connectin, do not buy this projector.

Second problem. In order to adjust width for the 14 different inputs I use, one must use the manual zoom. Unlike my last 2 CRT projector's, there is no place to store different widths because there is no setting for width like CRT's. This is a big deal. The timing of the HD 1080i information from my 4DTV 922/HD200 creates a picture about 5% smaller than the width of the pictures with the HDMI connection. Bottom line is that width can not be adjusted without physically adjusting the zoom control. You really need a powered zoom with a digital projector. I wish i had understood that. Something else...If you are trying to fill a given width of screen, you need to set the projector as far back a it takes to fill the screen with the narrowest picture produced at any of the inputs. If you set it back far enough, you can just zoom it when a wider image occurs. In my case and I suspect for many others, I would need to place the projector in the middle of my wall to do this. What a bummer.

If i could, I would get rid of this one and buy one with a shorter throw distance, a power zoom and power focus. Trying to focus this thing is a 2 person job which is awckward and frustrating. iff anybody wants this projector in the Washington DC metro area and wilii pay me what I have into it, call me.

Timbelmont

10-06-06, 04:26 AM

MrHiFi-

I think your problem is not that the HD81 is unduly limited, it's that you have a very complex patchwork of devices...some of which are what I would call "legacy" devices. You want to mix analog and digital signals among your 14 devices and achieve similar display characteristics with limited hassle. It may not work out that way. . .Good luck!

TA

MrHifi

10-06-06, 06:30 AM

Timbelmont,

If a device that is less than 10 years old is a "legacy" device, then my AV system which includes a 1971 Citation 15 FM tuner and 2 TEAC reel to reel decks, a Nakamichi Dragon and even a Pioneer DC-09 must be garbage and ready for the junk pile. I use a C Band satellte system with a 4DTV receiver. I watch the original first generation feeds not the compressed garbage that I hear others on this forum raving about. My system has been a source of amazing audio and video for years. I use VMPS STIII speakers and ADCOM amps. I even have a Hafler 220 in the mix.

The fact that the 3000 box does not accept 1080i sources through its BNC inputs is a grevious error on OPTMA's part. Even the "product engineer" does not seem to understand the 3000's capabilities.

When you can not trust the advertised information for a device, there is a problem. To blame my equipment is ridiculous. For over 50 years, manufacturers in the AV industry have insured backward compatibility. The idea that every 5 years you throw $100,00.00 worth of equipment is ridiculous. One should be able to connect devices that are still available in the marketplace. The faut here is Optoma's not mine.

Joe Linn

10-06-06, 08:19 AM

The BNC connections do not handle 1080i. Take that to the bank regardless of what Optoma's so called "product engineer" said this afternoon.

That's puzzling. The component connectors handle 1080i just fine. I wonder why the BNC connectors would be more limited than the component connectors. Could it possibly be an incorrect setting somewhere along the way?

Would it be possible to handle the varying picture sizes with the overscan control? Many of the settings can have different settings for each input source and signal type. If overscan has that capability, you could crop everything to the size of the smallest image. I realize that means you would be loosing 5% of the larger images, but it would eliminate the need to zoom.

Joe

Kevin R. Anderson

10-06-06, 08:29 AM

Hey Art:

I understand some of your frustration of moving from CRT to a digital display that inherently has less flexibility than a CRT (I had some of the same issues when I left my Sony VPH50).

However, as you noticed, digital displays also have a number of advantages over CRT, including no convergence problems, no burn-in, razor-sharp images, and relatively inexpensive bulb replacement. You've spent $7,000 on the Optoma, so why not spend $100 to $200 and get a new HDTV tuner with an HDMI output?

I have the first RCA HDTV tuner as well and finally retired it a year ago. Compared to new models, it poorly upconverts SD, its HD image is not as refined, it is painfully slow to change channels, and there is the inherent timing issue that makes picture alignment a problem (and may be why the Optoma RGBHV inputs cannot sync to the RCA).

In the alternative, maybe your dealer will swap for a Sony Pearl that has a motorized zoom and focus, but I think it will have the same problem with your RCA tuner.

MrHifi

10-06-06, 09:11 AM

Kevin,

I thought it might be an artifact of the RCA. I know that when sending an SD picture through the RGBHV output it uses 540P instead od 576P that the OPTOMA 3000 prefers. The HD is at 1080i 60Hz at 33 or 34 kHz.

I connected my Motorola HDD200 HD decoder that I use with my 4DTV 922 C/Ku digital/analog satellite rceiver.to the same BNC inputs but again all I could get through was 720p, not 1080i. That decoder is used by almost 50K people in this country, Canada, Mexico and the Indies. I think OPTOMA blew it.

The picture is superb. Better than anything my eyes have seen before. BTW, many friends and friends of friends bring their equipment over or ask me to set up projectors. I have looked at a number of 720P units before. This one blows everything else away. Now, if it could handle the source material and the sizing issues. If I sell it, I will definitely buy one with Lens shift capability, power zoomm and focus, and a shorter throw distance.

MrHifi

10-06-06, 09:22 AM

Joe,

I am using both YPrPb inputs. One has the output of the Pionee Elite DC-09 DVD player. The other has the output of the HDD200 DC2 digital satellite HD decoder. The latter had both RGBHV and YPrPb capability. I have a Zector switcher if I need more inputs into the 3000 but since everyone sizes slightly differently and has varying brightness, color, hue and contrast issues and I have no power zoom, I will have a problem if I don't use separate inpits on the 3000.

Kevin R. Anderson

10-06-06, 09:43 AM

Last night I pulled out my old laser disc player and connected it to the HD81 via s-video (I don't think laser disc ever had a component output). I wasn't expecting too much, but I was pleasantly surprised at how watchable it was. The letterbox setting does a good job of scaling the image to fit my 16:9 screen -- good enough that I can now watch my LD collection that has been in storage for a long time.

On the other hand, comparing laser disc to HD-DVD shows how far we have really come in 15 years.

tjgar

10-06-06, 02:08 PM

Kevin,

Do you think there will be a difference between the 1080i output of the current hd-dvd players and the 1080p the next gen hd-dvd payers? Will the scaler be able to up-convert the 1080i to close the the 1080p?

Thanx
Tony
Last night I pulled out my old laser disc player and connected it to the HD81 via s-video (I don't think laser disc ever had a component output). I wasn't expecting too much, but I was pleasantly surprised at how watchable it was. The letterbox setting does a good job of scaling the image to fit my 16:9 screen -- good enough that I can now watch my LD collection that has been in storage for a long time.

On the other hand, comparing laser disc to HD-DVD shows how far we have really come in 15 years.

Timbelmont

10-06-06, 02:42 PM

Kevin-

I'm glad your LaserDiscs look acceptable with the HD81. Wanna buy a few hundred LDs? My basement could use more free space. . .

Joe Linn

10-06-06, 02:52 PM

Kevin,

Do you think there will be a difference between the 1080i output of the current hd-dvd players and the 1080p the next gen hd-dvd payers? Will the scaler be able to up-convert the 1080i to close the the 1080p?

Thanx
Tony

For film-based material, the scaler can perfectly recreate 1080p from 1080i. Since film is 24 frames per second and 1080i is 60 fields per second, all the scaler needs to do is combine 2 successive frames. Nothing will have moved since the two frames so it will be the exact same image as if the player were outputting 1080p. The only trick is that to go from 24 fps to 60 fields per second, 2 fields will contain one frame of film. 3 fields will contain the next frame. It keeps alternating 2 and 3 fields per frame to make 60 fields per second. The scaler handles the "3:2 pulldown."

For material shot on video, the process is more difficult since something may move between the field containing the odd numbered lines and the field containing the even numbered lines.

From everything I have watched so far on the HD81, the scaler does an excellent job deinterlacing.

Joe

tjgar

10-06-06, 03:25 PM

Joe,

What about something recorded digitally Like Star Wars Episode 2-3 or any movie that is computor generated or animated ?

Thanx
Tony
For film-based material, the scaler can perfectly recreate 1080p from 1080i. Since film is 24 frames per second and 1080i is 60 fields per second, all the scaler needs to do is combine 2 successive frames. Nothing will have moved since the two frames so it will be the exact same image as if the player were outputting 1080p. The only trick is that to go from 24 fps to 60 fields per second, 2 fields will contain one frame of film. 3 fields will contain the next frame. It keeps alternating 2 and 3 fields per frame to make 60 fields per second. The scaler handles the "3:2 pulldown."

For material shot on video, the process is more difficult since something may move between the field containing the odd numbered lines and the field containing the even numbered lines.

From everything I have watched so far on the HD81, the scaler does an excellent job deinterlacing.

Joe

Kevin R. Anderson

10-06-06, 04:00 PM

Do you think there will be a difference between the 1080i output of the current hd-dvd players and the 1080p the next gen hd-dvd payers? Will the scaler be able to up-convert the 1080i to close the the 1080p?
Because the native resolution of the HD81 is 1080p, the scaler upconverts everything to that resolution. With 1080i, the Gennum processor does the deinterlacing which combines the two interlaced fields into a progressive field. As Greg Rogers noted in the WSR of the Marantz, the Gennum scaler does an "excellent job" of deinterlacing.

When high definition DVDs (HD-DVD or Blu-Ray) output a true 1080p signal, I understand the HD81 will simply display the image without any processing. Right now, Blu-Ray actually takes 1080p, converts it to 1080i and reconverts it to 1080p, so it simply uses the processor in the Blu-Ray player to output 1080p while the Optoma uses the Gennum processor.

In short, I suspect there will be very little difference between a 1080i signal that is deinterlaced to 1080p by the Optoma's Gennum processor and a native 1080p signal (now 1080p at 24 or 48 Hz versus 60 Hz will improve judder problems, but that is another issue).

MrHifi

10-06-06, 04:48 PM

I spoke to the Optoma product engineer today and verified that the BNC connections will not pass anything above 1050. The YPrPb will pass 1080i. Sad for anyone using RGHV to move HD around. He was surprised.

Also, has anyone seen version 5 around? He thought it was at the website but it is not. I have 4. Turns out that my unit was one of the first 40 that came into the country. At least that is what he said. Makes no sense to me if others are reporting they have 5. Any chance I might buy a copy of 5 from you Tom? I'd like to update before throwing in the towel.

Joe Linn

10-06-06, 05:00 PM

Joe,

What about something recorded digitally Like Star Wars Episode 5, or any movie that is computor generated or animated ?

Thanx
Tony

I believe Star Wars Episode 5 would still be 24 frames per second since they wanted to be able to convert it to 24 fps film. Does anyone know for sure?

Joe

GeorgeAB

10-06-06, 05:10 PM

Actually, the original 3 Star Wars films were designated episodes 4, 5 and 6, due to the story chronology. The more recent movies were officially episodes 1, 2 and 3. Episodes 2 and 3 were made using the unique cameras Sony developed for Lucasfilm. Those 1920 x 1080p cameras were 24 fps.

jruizcristina

10-06-06, 07:15 PM

You really need a powered zoom with a digital projector. I wish i had understood that. Something else...If you are trying to fill a given width of screen, you need to set the projector as far back a it takes to fill the screen with the narrowest picture produced at any of the inputs. If you set it back far enough, you can just zoom it when a wider image occurs. In my case and I suspect for many others, I would need to place the projector in the middle of my wall to do this. What a bummer.

Now you got me worried... I hadn't thought of this possible problem, and my installation makes very difficult physical access to the projector, I can't reach it to make adjustments every day. But I still don't get what you say about zooming to adjust to a wider image. Could you clarify?

Other Optoma users, is it necessary for you also to adjust focus / zoom frequently? This could be a deal breaker for me

Gary Lightfoot

10-06-06, 07:21 PM

I don't know why different inputs should be different sizes, after all, it's the same 16:9 panel. Maybe some sources have a border, so can the scaler box make them fit? I currently use HTPC and if I get a DVD that does not fit the screen (not all mastered up to the full size of the format), I use it to increase the image so that it fills the screen. I never touch the zoom or focus on my H78.

Gary

guitarman

10-06-06, 09:02 PM

Yep I think there's something in the menu's for changing size, 100 pixels or so I think, Horizontal and Vertical.

Rob Tomlin

10-06-06, 10:26 PM

Well, I measured my HT, and I am pretty much resigned to the fact that this pj won't work for my situation (unless I go with a smaller screen, which I am not willing to do).

The minimum throw is just too long. The rear of the pj would be about 18" from the back wall, but only about 7" from my soffit. I would want at least 2 inches of safety factor beyond what Optoma says the minimum throw is, so that puts me at 5" from the soffit. And the connections come out the back, but I currently have my wiring coming out of the ceiling at a point that would be well in front of the pj now.

Too bad. Hopefully it won't be too long before Optoma releases another version of this pj with more flexible installation options.

Kevin R. Anderson

10-07-06, 12:21 AM

I finished doing an initial calibration of the HD81 and just when I thought it couldn't get any better -- WOW. Incredible color resolution and great gray scale tracking (the Delta C error averaged .5 and never exceeded .75 (an error of 1 or less is excellent).

Precalibration, the WARM setting, which was closest to D65, still came in at approximately 7,000 Kelvins and was less flat.

Attached is the color gamut showing that except for a slightly over-saturated green, the primaries are pretty close to the standard. I was hoping the vivid color control would allow one to desaturate the green primary, but it had no effect (maybe this control is limited to analog inputs such as component).

If you are going to spend $7,000 for this projector, don't cheat yourself out of all the HD81 has to offer by skipping a professional calibration.

By the way, DRAPP just bought the Sony Pearl, and on Monday, we going to attempt a "shoot-out" between the Optoma and Sony.

Kevin R. Anderson

10-07-06, 12:36 AM

TheLion

10-07-06, 01:42 AM

dknight

10-07-06, 02:42 AM

Attached are the precalibration and post calibration RGB% graphs. Note that the gray scale tracks flat from 20 IRE and up. Most display devices don't stabilize until 30 IRE. This means better blacks and more accurate colors at low luminance levels -- Phantom of the Opera really showed this off with all of its dark scenes.
Kevin,

I'm hoping to do a calibration of my projector this weekend myself. Would you mind posting the final settings you came up with? Did you just adjust brightness, contrast, and the RGB gain/bias settings or were there some other settings you adjusted?

Thanks!

-Dave

TheLion

10-07-06, 07:02 AM

Kevin,

just to confirm: The color gamut graph is measured out-of-the-box without any changes/calibration on your part, right?

jmorris644

10-07-06, 08:23 AM

tjgar

10-07-06, 08:39 AM

Kevin, or anyone who can help,

I was wondering, do you, or anyone else know how I could find a professional calibrator in the Chicago area. When I do make up my mind as to wich pj I get (hd81-Pearl-W10000) I believe it would be forth the cost (within reason) to have it calibrated.

Also, I am looking forward to the Pearl sv 81 shoot-out!

Appreciate the help
Tony

I finished doing an initial calibration of the HD81 and just when I thought it couldn't get any better -- WOW. Incredible color resolution and great gray scale tracking (the Delta C error averaged .5 and never exceeded .75 (an error of 1 or less is excellent).

Precalibration, the WARM setting, which was closest to D65, still came in at approximately 7,000 Kelvins and was less flat.

Attached is the color gamut showing that except for a slightly over-saturated green, the primaries are pretty close to the standard. I was hoping the vivid color control would allow one to desaturate the green primary, but it had no effect (maybe this control is limited to analog inputs such as component).

If you are going to spend $7,000 for this projector, don't cheat yourself out of all the HD81 has to offer by skipping a professional calibration.

By the way, DRAPP just bought the Sony Pearl, and on Monday, we going to attempt a "shoot-out" between the Optoma and Sony.

Kevin R. Anderson

10-07-06, 10:51 AM

Just to confirm: The color gamut graph is measured out-of-the-box without any changes/calibration on your part, right?
That is correct. Generally, you cannot adjust the primaries, but some newer models like the Yahmaha and Samsung H710 have such controls. I was hoping the HD81 had them, but based on the accuracy of its primaries, it would only be a minor improvement.

Kevin R. Anderson

10-07-06, 10:56 AM

My theater is still in progess so right now I have my hd81 projecting on my wall where I have my screen material temporarily hanging. Can I calibrate it now and it will be fine when I move it or would I have to calibrate it twice?
A tough call. If your room will not substantially change (e.g., you are not going to paint the room) and if you have the screen you will use when the project is finished, then you should be able to get an accurate calibration.

The downside is that you go that much longer without enjoying a calibrated projector; the upside is that your final "system" is calibrated to compensate for all factors, including the screen, room reflections, cables, source devices (DVD player, HDTV tuner) etc.

See what your calibrator will charge to come back and do a touch-up, which takes much less time than the intital calibration.

Kevin R. Anderson

10-07-06, 11:05 AM

I'm hoping to do a calibration of my projector this weekend myself. Would you mind posting the final settings you came up with? Did you just adjust brightness, contrast, and the RGB gain/bias settings or were there some other settings you adjusted?

Basically, I turned off all "picture improvements" such as vivid color, edge enhancement, sharpness, etc. (these are really for "improving" low-rez sources). I use the Accupel to calibrate to an accurate standard. I start by setting brightness and contrast, and then adjust gray scale using the Progressive Labs CA-6X colorimeter and software.

My experience is that it is very difficult to set grayscale without the proper instruments, but if you pick up a gray card at a photo shop, that at least gives you some reference to compare a gray scale test pattern with changes that you make. When people see an accurate gray scale for the first time, they tend to think it looks too red (this is because they are accustomed to seeing the way-too-blue settings of most set).

TheLion

10-07-06, 12:15 PM

guitarman

10-07-06, 01:05 PM

danieledmunds

10-07-06, 01:46 PM

I'll second TheLion's request for a comparison of the optics. I have heard, from people who have demoed it, that the HD81 image is a bit "digital/processed".

Rob Tomlin

10-07-06, 02:44 PM

I'll second TheLion's request for a comparison of the optics. I have heard, from people who have demoed it, that the HD81 image is a bit "digital/processed".

Even if that were true, I doubt that would be due to the optics.

TheLion

10-07-06, 08:00 PM

Kevin, please allow for another calibration question:

- Did you measure the standard/preset gamma curve? I prefer a 2.4 curve in addition to 2.2 - Are there any gamma presets that come close to these values or does it require manual calibration?

Thank you very much!

Kevin R. Anderson

10-07-06, 09:21 PM

I prefer a 2.4 curve in addition to 2.2 - Are there any gamma presets that come close to these values or does it require manual calibration?

I had gamma set up a few notches and got a gamma of 2.14. There was essentially no difference between pre-cal and post-cal gamma, so my guess is that you can easily obtain 2.4 just using the available gamma controls.

Kevin R. Anderson

10-07-06, 09:45 PM

Kevin, Dave and all the other lucky HD81 early adopters here:

-> Please share your thoughts about the lens quality. This is probably the most important factor about the HD81 for me - especially since I saw the new Marantz VP11S1 with its razor sharp optics :eek:

So again - How would you rate the quality of the optics regarding corner-to-corner sharpness and chromatic aberration? Any first hand comparison with other projectors with state of the art optics like Marantz, BenQ 8720, Runco would be great!

Anybody here you uses a HTPC with 1:1 pixel mapping together with the HD81 - displaying your standard desktop at the native resolution is probably the best way for judging sharpness and detail.

- Another question: Is the opening (grill) at the back of the HD81 for ventilation purposes? Or is it possible to "flush mount" it (just leaving space for the cable connections)?

- Does anybody here use the "Edge Enhancement" filter and can comment about the quality of its implementation and any potential sideffects like halos and ringing?

I just finished getting it off the floor and installed in ceiling. As mentioned, the Accupel has patterns to test 1x1 pixel mapping, using lines of 1 pixel width. I have not yet carefully checked the corners, but the center is certainly sharp. However, I would guess, just based on price, that the Marantz will have better optics -- but you sure have to pay for it.

When mounted on the ceiling (and looking towards the screen), it draws cool air from the left and vents warm air to the right. While the fan is noticable, it quickly blends into the background - more so than any other projector I've owned. Somewhere on the Internet, you can buy an "L" shaped HDMI connector that would allow you to put it even closer to a wall.

The edge enhancement works as well as similar options on other processors, but it is not something I would use -- even on low-rez sources. Using the Accupel test signals, there is no question that the edge enhancement creates artifacts. I tried it on my laser discs using the first setting, and it was OK, but certainly not a feature that would have any impact on my decision to purchase this projector.

As a matter of practice, I almost always turn off all "picture enhancement" features.

Kevin R. Anderson

10-07-06, 09:55 PM

dknight

10-07-06, 11:16 PM

Basically, I turned off all "picture improvements" such as vivid color, edge enhancement, sharpness, etc. (these are really for "improving" low-rez sources). I use the Accupel to calibrate to an accurate standard. I start by setting brightness and contrast, and then adjust gray scale using the Progressive Labs CA-6X colorimeter and software.

My experience is that it is very difficult to set grayscale without the proper instruments, but if you pick up a gray card at a photo shop, that at least gives you some reference to compare a gray scale test pattern with changes that you make. When people see an accurate gray scale for the first time, they tend to think it looks too red (this is because they are accustomed to seeing the way-too-blue settings of most set).
Kevin,

Would you mind posting your final settings? I'd like to compare them to mine (plus the ones that Guitarman posted earlier).

I did a quick brightness/contrast adjustment with the GetGray calibration disc via my Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD player (HDMI 1080i input) and ended up having to crank my brightness all the way up to 19 (max is 20). Are you getting similar numbers?

I don't have an Accupel but plan on doing a Calman/Spyder2 calibration when I can find some time. The biggest problem I have with this projector is that whenever I try to sit down to adjust it I end up getting so engrossed in whatever I'm watching that I don't get around to doing any tweaks.

I just watched my HD-Tivo'd episode of Lost from this past week and it was stunning. By far the best I've ever seen this show look, and it is only 720p upconverted to 1080p by the scaler. The quality of the scaler continues to amaze me!

-Dave

Kevin R. Anderson

10-07-06, 11:38 PM

I did a quick brightness/contrast adjustment with the GetGray calibration disc via my Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD player (HDMI 1080i input) and ended up having to crank my brightness all the way up to 19 (max is 20). Are you getting similar numbers?
-Dave
I did have this problem last night, and I knew it couldn't be right. I did a re-sync on the front panel and switched to a different input and then back and it seemed to reset the processor such that the correct brightness for me was (I think) a -2. I think somehow the processor is getting messed up on the black level, but it has only happened this one time.

I will post my numbers when I get the chance, but remember they are from a "quickie" calibration and they may not work well for your set-up (I have the same problem that I would rather watch it than tweak it).

MrHifi

10-08-06, 12:27 AM

I've spent the last 2 nights and all day playing with this thing. The ability to access the Zoom control is absolutely necessary if you want all of your soueces to touch the edges of your screen. Each source requires a slight tweak of the zoom control. In my case, the narrowest 16x9 1080i material comes from my 4DTV/HDD200 satellite receiver and high definition decoder. I've been forced to use the YPrPb instead of the RGBHV inputs as I discussed previously. Procedurally, I set the projector as close to my rear wall as possible. Even so, Seadly, I am unable to fill the full 96" width of my screen. I am about 1/4' short on each side with the zoom all the way out. When I switch to my LG LST-3410A HDMI 1080i 16x9 sources, I get a width that is 2' wider on each side than my screen. I move the zoom lever to get the corrct width. In addition to these, I also hae all the upconverted 16x9 DVD and Laser Disc screens. This means that right now I have 6 different widths I must accomodate when watching 16x9 material. My wife is not happy since she is having to get up to move the Zoom lever. Tom, I've tried to find something that allows width changes. I have not. If you know of such an adjustment, please let me know.

I would like to offer the following observations after almost 28 logged hours. On "standard setting the unit is biased towards blue green. If this is to be the 6500K setting, I need to get into the setup menu to adjust it. I have the very first Progressive Labs unit that worked with a computer. I used it dozens of times to adjust CRT displays primarily. I would like to set the warm setting to 5500K, the standard to 6500K, and the blue to 9300K. f anyone know how to get into the factory setup, please let me know. Kevin is corrct about the blue green bias although a quick check at 50 IRE with their warm setting gave a 5800+ reading on my device. That is not bad. I did not check linearity with increasing light output. Kevin, do you have a graph of white temperature plotted against gain from 30 IRE to 80 IRE?

As far as brightness is concerned, I am a bit dissapointed. I am finding that the blacks are just too black and I wind up raising brightness, adjusting gamma to 5 and setting the IRIS to 1 in an effort to resolve details in the dark areas. Frankly, te 7" Toshiba tubes in the DWIN HD700 did a much better job at low IRE's. I am hoping it is my unfamiliarity with the set's adjustability. My HDD200 puts out a very dark image through the YPrPb output. Yes the RGBHV was considerably brighter. The HDD200's output was dimmer than other sources but I never had a broblem resolving shades of gray in the 20-30 IRE region. If there is a way to crank up the brightness in the low end relative to and without affecting the mid and high IRE levels, I would like some guidance.

I find thay material delivered via the HDMI inputs from the networks is incredible. Analog HD material is nowhere near as good. Surprisingly, after considerable tweaking, upconverted DVD material looked superb. I had quite a bit of trouble figuring out how to get the Pioneer Elite DV-09's output to show in the correct aspect ratio. I am still uncomfortable with the settings I was forced to use in the DVD player, Letterbox instead of Widescreen. Even though the output is delivered through 480i YPrPb connections, Pioneer recommends using the "Widescreen" setting for maximum fidelity. For some reason the 3000 would not do the 3:2 pulldown. It is probably my fault but in 20 years, I've never has this problem before.

Finally, s properly adjusted image leaves you breathless. I found myself saying to my wife "Isn't this incredible" many times an hour. She left the eroom several times in frustration. I got mad when she finally refused to answer me any longer. As I said before, I wish it has a poweredd Zoom lens and focus. The latter is not a big deal if there are two of you when setting it up. One person will need spy glasses or a telescope to do the job correctly.

Uatatoka

10-08-06, 02:40 AM

I did a quick brightness/contrast adjustment with the GetGray calibration disc via my Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD player (HDMI 1080i input) and ended up having to crank my brightness all the way up to 19 (max is 20). Are you getting similar numbers?

This sounds awfully familiar to the YCbCr->RGB conversion issue with the HD-A1 not passing BTB properly. I saw this when attempting to go HDMI to DVI with the HD72, but HDMI to HDMI worked properly and I was able to brightness back down to normal levels. Strange the processor is HDMI only though - it should work fine (I would think) but apparantly not so...curious to what's transpiring in the VP.

guitarman

10-08-06, 11:45 AM

Kevin,

Would you mind posting your final settings? I'd like to compare them to mine (plus the ones that Guitarman posted earlier).

I did a quick brightness/contrast adjustment with the GetGray calibration disc via my Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD player (HDMI 1080i input) and ended up having to crank my brightness all the way up to 19 (max is 20). Are you getting similar numbers?

I don't have an Accupel but plan on doing a Calman/Spyder2 calibration when I can find some time. The biggest problem I have with this projector is that whenever I try to sit down to adjust it I end up getting so engrossed in whatever I'm watching that I don't get around to doing any tweaks.

I just watched my HD-Tivo'd episode of Lost from this past week and it was stunning. By far the best I've ever seen this show look, and it is only 720p upconverted to 1080p by the scaler. The quality of the scaler continues to amaze me!

-Dave

I set up to the Toshiba with PC-video level on the Scaler.

My Tosh numbers.

Contrast 6
Brightness -2

Sri I didn't tune up the grayscale yet for HDMI and left the stock PC gamma also. Pretty sure I had to choose PC-Video, 7.5 was off for the Tosh. Kevin could check it or the next time I hook up the Accupel I'll re-check.

Kevin, check your firmware, the changing brightness could mean you have C04. One of the things C05 fixed is not remembering 7.5 and shooting back to PC when you started up again. Did you try to tune the Tosh with 7.5?

Kevin R. Anderson

10-08-06, 01:05 PM

Hi Tom:

I have the C05 firmware and my black levels on the Toshiba and HD81 are properly set. I think it was just a small glitch in the processor because I haven't seen it before or since. My contrast and brightness settings are similar to yours (I think I have contrast at 4).

guitarman

10-08-06, 01:16 PM

Using 7.5 or PC?

guitarman

10-08-06, 01:21 PM

Art, get a small pair of binoculars so you can focus back by the projector.

Kevin R. Anderson

10-08-06, 01:23 PM

Instead of using the RJ45 to DB9 adaptors (I didn't want to see the adaptor sticking out the back of the projector), I simply cut the serial cable that came with the projector and wired the DB9 connector on each end of the CAT-5 cable.

The HD81 uses the very basic 3-wire null-modem configuration.

I cut the serial cable in half and then determined which 3 of the 9 wires I needed. For me, the 3 were yellow, red, and brown. I clipped off the other wires on the serial cable, connected them to three of the CAT-5 twisted pairs on each end, and my 35' cable worked without any problems.

I've attached the wiring diagram for a null-modem that might be helpful for others.

Andrew P

10-08-06, 02:24 PM

I think the people who find the HD81 to look "digitally processed" are probably the same ones who love the Sony Pearl. DLP and SXRD certainly have distinctively different looks, and whether you prefer one over another is a matter of taste. I like the "punchy" sharp look of DLP while others prefer the smooth, film-like look of the Pearl.

I will say that the HD81 clearly has the smoothest DLP picture I've seen - no dithering, no visible pixels (from a reasonably seating distance), and essentially no banding.

I have yet to see the H81 but all DLP's that I have seen look overly digital and harsh. I own a 55" DLP Kirk Samsung, two LCOS front projectors, and a Plasma. For movies I prefer LCOS by a wide margin, for wow factor I prefer the Plasma, and for sports I prefer the DLP.

guitarman

10-08-06, 03:12 PM

ANSI contrast rules for me.

jmorris644

10-08-06, 08:00 PM

OT: I hooked up my hd cable box through the componet outs. The hd channels look fantastic. But you all knew that already. :) Here is what puzzles me. I also took the composite out and put it into a rf modulator to send it to the rest of the house. To my surprise I am getting a hd signal on the other TVs in the house. I had thought that hd signls were not sent through the composite connection. Can someone please clarify this for me?

Joe

guitarman

10-08-06, 08:42 PM

It's not HD. HD channels will look better than SD channels though they're down resed to the PJ.

dknight

10-08-06, 09:06 PM

I set up to the Toshiba with PC-video level on the Scaler.

My Tosh numbers.

Contrast 6
Brightness -2

I set to HDMI-PC and that definitely brought my brightness back down to your levels. Looks like Blacker Than Black is not being passed through for SD DVDs; did you notice that?

My color saturation is off and can't be adjusted for HDMI inputs on the HD81. I'm so used to being able to adjust Color and Saturation in TheaterTek and haven't used a standalone player in so long. What is the solution? Will it fall into line after a proper calibration?

-Dave

jmorris644

10-08-06, 09:16 PM

It's not HD. HD channels will look better than SD channels though they're down resed to the PJ.

Tom, I completely understand but it IS hd. I know what hd looks like on my TVs and it is definately is hd.

Joe

guitarman

10-08-06, 09:23 PM

The HD signal needs to be sent thru component or HDMI cables. If you were to hook up your projector that composite cable the seen signal read out would tell you it's not HD.

weatherby

10-09-06, 01:53 PM

I asked a question a few pages back but I think it got lost in other discussions. Does anyone know if you can have a hdmi going out to the projector and another one going to a plasma? I don't want them playing at the same time of course I just want to be able to select which display I want the scaler to send it to? Thanks.........

guitarman

10-09-06, 02:04 PM

Only one HDMI video out. You'll have to get a switch box.

Kevin R. Anderson

10-09-06, 02:21 PM

I think the scaler only outputs 1080p, so unless your plasma can accept such a signal, it might not work anyway.

MCBRacer

10-09-06, 02:31 PM

Can anyone answer these questions please? Optoma are not coming forth with this info and we are getting desparate for answers. Room size is 17 x 20, ceiling is 9 feet. Thanks!

Accurate throw distance range using Optoma Anamorphic lens and Stewart CineCurve Screen (2:35.1 Aspect) 120” W x 51” H

Accurate offset distance above top of screen. We don’t want to use keystone. Our installer can place everything dead on.

Are all measurements taken from front & center of lens?

How does the scaler handle 16:9 or 4:3 images? Does it just create wide and wider side bars?

weatherby

10-09-06, 04:07 PM

Tom..I thought there were two hdmi outs. One to the projector and one to a Receiver. Could the one going to the reciever go to a plasma instead? I guess maybe not??

Kevin R. Anderson

10-09-06, 04:08 PM

All measurements are from the center of the lens.

Offset is length x .1095 (tangent of 6.25 degrees) such that if you are 200 inches back from the screen, the offset is approximately 22 inches.

The scaler has settings for 16:9, native, and 4:3. If you display a 4:3 DVD (Singing in the Rain for example), it correctly displays it in the 4:3 ratio by having black bars on both sides.

weatherby

10-09-06, 04:16 PM

Kevin so in my case where I am 19 feet back for a 123" diagonal screen (60" wide) I would multiply .1095 x 228" which means the offset is aproximtely 25". If that is correct I would like to confirm that means the center of lens needs to be 25" above the top of the screen for a ceiling mount? Is this correct? Thanks.

weatherby

10-09-06, 04:25 PM

Sorry in my last post I meant 60" High not Wide.

jruizcristina

10-09-06, 04:41 PM

Tom..I thought there were two hdmi outs. One to the projector and one to a Receiver. Could the one going to the reciever go to a plasma instead? I guess maybe not??

According to the instruction manual, if I am not mistaken, there are actually three HDMI connectos, but two of them ("to AV receiver" and "from AV receiver") are meant only to route the signal through an external "pass by" AV system (I guess it is mainly to get the sound out?). But you still have only one signal path. You will need a video switch to do what you want with the HD81.

I am planning to use component with the plasma, since I guess when I want to watch a movie in max picture quality I will use the projector. I am not sure if the video switch is worth the extra money, at least for me.

I think there are external processors (Crystalio may be?) which include also a HDMI video switch, they could make a good combo for you with a projector like Pearl, but that is not a good deal with the Optoma, which already has an excellent processor...

Again, I would use component with the plasma

Kevin R. Anderson

10-09-06, 04:52 PM

slackmack

10-09-06, 06:12 PM

What's the best way to find a competent professional in the Baltimore/Washington, D.C area to setup (calibrate) my HD81 when I get it?

cbr-rdguy

10-09-06, 06:32 PM

Art,

If you connect a HD 1080I source to the BNC connectors, it needs to be in the YPrPb format. I did this with a HD Tivo outputing 1080I and it works.

dknight

10-09-06, 11:47 PM

I think I found a bug today in firmware C05 and would like to see if anybody can reproduce it. This was using the Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD player connected via HDMI.

At Guitarman's suggestion, I switched my HD-A1 HDMI input to PC levels (instead of Video) and recalibrated my brightness and contrast last night (came out to -2 and 7 respectively). Things looked great afterwards.

Tonight I popped in a rental HD-DVD (16 Blocks) and watched the entire movie and it felt very flat and lifeless - didn't have the "pop" I was seeing last night. After watching the movie I loaded my Avia disc and brought up the needles + pulse chapter to check brightness/contrast. I noticed that they seemed off, so I hit the menu button on the Optoma remote, hit enter twice to get into the Contrast adjstments and then tweaked contrast/brightness. For some reason they were way off. I clicked down one more time to get to "Color" and as soon as I did that my brightness and contrast changed completely. Everything got much brighter.

I readjusted everything and ended up with the settings that I had gotten last night. For some reason my machine was in some sort of "dull" mode (for lack of a better term) until I went down to the color adjustment.

I tried switching to other HDMI inputs and then back again but couldn't get the problem to reoccur. However, I then tried power cycling the Toshiba and as soon as I went into the picture adjustments menu and selected an item to adjust (I think it was Contrast this time) the image brightened up again. It is definitely repeatable, although it didn't happen exactly the same way as the first time (when I had to first scroll down to Color before it would switch).

Can anybody with similar equipment try the same experiment?

There is definitely something peculiar about the HDMI inputs on the HD81 scaler. I understand the HD-A1 has some HDMI->DVI issues, but they seem to crop up on the HD81 as well (which is straight HDMI). It also appears that my other straight HDMI input (from my DirecTV HR10-250 hi def Tivo) requires PC levels instead of Video, which I didn't expect.

Please let me know if you can reproduce these issues. Thanks.

-Dave

guitarman

10-10-06, 01:32 AM

Ah the old PC-levels vs video levels 7.5 vs 0 levels and devices. This is one of Greg Rodgers pet peaves. :) You need the Accupel to figure it out. They're all different lol
Drives me nuts too

There should be a thread on results. Motorola comcast box, Pany Asia DVD player, Denon 1600 analog, Tosh HD-DVD player, were are they at? ;)

The changing brightness levels sounds very odd. More testing needed.

cavu

10-10-06, 02:18 AM

Motorola comcast boxMotorola DCT64xx & DCT34xx are 7.5IRE (video).

Kevin R. Anderson

10-10-06, 08:43 AM

I clicked down one more time to get to "Color" and as soon as I did that my brightness and contrast changed completely. Everything got much brighter.
-Dave
I've seen this as well with the same set up -- HD-A1 via HDMI with firmware C05. It is interesting because from everything I can tell, the "color" control over HDMI does not change saturation levels.

Is this like the old issue on the H79 where if you hit the "re-sync" button it would switch between PC and VIDEO black levels?

Now that I can recognize the "dull" look, I know what to do to fix it, but it is something that should be remedied with a firmware upgrade.

By the way, last night we had our shoot out of the HD81 and the Sony Pearl. We will post our results in a separate thread. The long and short is that they both throw absolutely beautiful pictures but they each have a different approach to visual quality -- the HD81 is bright with more "pop and sizzle" while the Sony is smooth and film-like. Pick your favorite flavor and get ready for incredibly beautiful images.

jmorris644

10-10-06, 08:48 AM

Tom,

I have looked at theOptomaUSA web site looking for the firmware upgrade. I am still running C04. Do you ahve any information on its availability?

Thanks

Joe

dknight

10-10-06, 10:27 AM

I've seen this as well with the same set up -- HD-A1 via HDMI with firmware C05. It is interesting because from everything I can tell, the "color" control over HDMI does not change saturation levels.

Is this like the old issue on the H79 where if you hit the "re-sync" button it would switch between PC and VIDEO black levels?

Now that I can recognize the "dull" look, I know what to do to fix it, but it is something that should be remedied with a firmware upgrade.
Thanks for the confirmation, Kevin. I've forwarded a bug report to Wing and will report back what he says. It definitely does look like it is switching back to VIDEO black levels incorrectly and then going to the color adjustment snaps it back to the correct PC levels.

One strange thing I've noticed is that the color adjustment does nothing for HDMI inputs, but the hue/tint does work. This doesn't seem correct; I could understand if either both worked or neither worked but not one without the other. Any thoughts on this?

Looking forward to reading more about the Pearl/HD81 shootout.

-Dave

romanesq

10-10-06, 10:32 AM

Definitely looking forward to that shootout. :)

guitarman

10-10-06, 12:08 PM

They should have it up by now, I'll call in today and find out.

guitarman

10-10-06, 01:01 PM

Just got off the phone, the website access for firmware is coming but there's still more beta testing to do.

On the HD-A1 color button gamma change, they did pick this up already and a firmware fix will come. For now don't hit the color button. :)

dknight

10-10-06, 01:56 PM

On the HD-A1 color button gamma change, they did pick this up already and a firmware fix will come. For now don't hit the color button. :)
Actually, just the opposite. You NEED to hit the color button to get the correct results. If your picture looks dim that is...

I guess I'll be making this a standard part of my startup procedure.

-Dave

guitarman

10-10-06, 02:12 PM

So you're saying you tune it up and after shuting down the DVD player the image goes darker. Very good, and this is just with the Toshiba HDA-1?

dknight

10-10-06, 02:52 PM

So you're saying you tune it up and after shuting down the DVD player the image goes darker. Very good, and this is just with the Toshiba HDA-1?
That is correct. On startup the image is dimmer than it was before (like it is being started in Video instead of PC levels). Clicking on the "color" adjustment brings it back to PC levels.

I don't know if this only applies to the HD-A1, but I'd be careful and double check anything that is set to PC HDMI levels.

By the way, I had asked Wing about whether Hue or Saturation were adjustable for HDMI inputs and he said that they are (and this is a feature that many competitors don't offer). To do this you need to go into the Color Vividness option and select 'User'. This capability is actually handled by an additional ASIC that they added to their scaler.

I haven't tried this yet but look forward to doing so tonight, as the color was definitely off a touch on my HD-A1.

-Dave

guitarman

10-10-06, 04:00 PM

Just picked up Army of Darkness for the HDA1. There's some flaws on the DVD but overall I'm thrilled how it looks on the HD81. If anybody doesn't know this movie pick it up you'll be glad you did.

MrHifi

10-10-06, 05:18 PM

I too am fighting with the dark/dull picture after a precie setup. All of a sudden it comes back then goes away if i touch anything. i have C04. Also, two fellow ho do this for a living spent over 4 hours trying to align the projector to my screen so that the image would have the proper dimensions. They had not used the RPA2 Chief mount with a three hole projector. I set that up but adjusting that mount for roll, pitch and yaw is a nightmare. Specially with the legs all the way out as they must be for heat purposes. BTW, we measured the heat between projector and ceiling at 128 degrees. When the projector is upside down, the fan noise gets really obtrusive. With my sound level meter in slow response with C weighting 6 ft away from the projector, I got 38 dB. With the unit off I go off scale low. It is definitely louder than my DWIN HD700 with its muffin fan in the power supply. The frequency is bothersome too. Kind of like wind drushing by a car window.

At first I was bowled over by the punchy sharp picture. Now I am getting sick of all the litle quircky issues that keep manifesting themselves.

On the BNC inputs, everyone's results are consistent. The BNC connectors will accept 720P RGBHV. Will not accept 1080i RGBHV. Apparently, someone got it to accept YPrPb 1080I through the BNC connectors. I was not able to try that.

EDITED: I could not get 1080i YPrPb to pass through the BNC. My hat is off to the person who was successful. He may have been passing 720P YPrPb which it will accept.

weatherby

10-11-06, 12:39 PM

Does anyone know if the Optoma is brighter at a short or long throw? As an example I will be using a 123" screen which means the projector has to be between 16.5 and 19.8 feet. I can put it anywhere between this so is there anything in the projector that would make it better to be closer or further. I know it makes a big difference with the Pearl but how about the Hd81??

TheLion

10-11-06, 12:46 PM

HiHoStevo

10-11-06, 12:58 PM

Due to the lens system used on this price range projector it operates similarly to a camera "f-stop" so the more open the lens is the more light is coming out the lens. IE: for maximum brightness you want the projector mounted at a distance which would allow the lens to be as far open (or close to) as possible.

mkerdman

10-11-06, 01:12 PM

Where is the most accurate projector calculator Optoma HD81?

I want to calculate the throw distance for a 2.35:1/1.78:1 dual masked screen.

Is there any definitive info on the anamorphic lens/prism Optoma will be selling with & for the HD81?

Thanks!

MrHifi

10-11-06, 01:18 PM

HiHoStevo is absolutely correct. It is brighter with the Zoom all the way out. I have my Iris wide open and the Zoom completely out. EVEN SO, using the setting for sources with lower signal (IRE) input, I am having to crank in +20 on the brightness setting when watching material coming from my LG PVR's via the HDMI inputs. The SVHS VCR's via the S connector are plenty bright and there I use the 0 IRE setting quite satisfactorily. The satellite decoder is very dark and the settings I used for the LG PVR's apply to this device even though it is coming in through the YPrPb input. BTW I use a 96" wide 1.3 gain scren in a dark room with only reflected light from the screen bouncing of the ceiling. Also, and this is important. After several days of living with this thing, the picture is much brighter and just plain better, a lot better, with the lamp in brite mode. Even though the fan goes to high, I find that on the ceiling where it is now mounted, the 200-300 HZ tone that the projector gives off at low speed is gone, replaced by wind noise equivalent to what I hear 3 ft away from my Dell Gen5 computer with thre muffin fans. On high speed the motor registers 34 dB on my Radio Shack sound level meter.

dknight

10-11-06, 01:49 PM

EVEN SO, using the setting for sources with lower signal (IRE) input, I am having to crank in +20 on the brightness setting when watching material coming from my LG PVR's via the HDMI inputs.
Try setting the HDMI input for these devices to "PC Levels" instead of "Video Levels". This should solve that problem.

I had to do this to both my Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD player and my DirecTV HR10-250 HD-Tivo.

Also beware of the levels bug that a few of us have noticed on HDMI devices set to "PC Levels". They occasionally come up in "Video Levels" mode by accident which causes a very washed out looking picture. The fix is to go into the "Color" adjustment - no need to change anything; just entering the adjustment mode snaps the levels back to PC.

Optoma is working on a fix for this.

-Dave

MrHifi

10-11-06, 02:14 PM

DK,

Yes, I am aware of the bug and was one of those who complained about it. I believe that the reason we have not seen an upgrade to C4 on Optoma's site is due to the fact that they would like to include the fix in the upgrade.

BTW, as I said in my message reporting the low brightness levels, I have been using the DVI-PC levels that provide higher gain at the input. Even so, I need to set the brightness at +20. With all these very basic issues it seems like Optoma may have jumped the gun to get to market.

Have you noticed anything about a non rectangular image. I can get the short sides parallel and I can get the top side at 90 degrees to each side. No matter what I do the bottom of the rectangle slopes down to the right with reference to the top side. When the projector was right side up, I had the same problem but inverted. I am wondering whether there is a mechanical error like a mask that is tilted inside the lamp housing or perhaps around the chip. Believe me after setting up projectors for over 30 years, I know how to set up the geometry correctly. This is not a set up issue. Please check your unit.

MrHifi

10-12-06, 03:10 PM

Do we know whether the VXD 3000 will handle the HDMI 1.3 deep color that Toshiba claims will be part of its second generation player?

I sure hope so but I believe it uses a 10 bit processor rather than a 12 bit as required by the new spec, I believe. Perhaps the processing will be done externally. If so, we might have to use something like the Y PrPb inputs if the HDMI can't handle it. I was looking at HD players and learned more than I wanted to know I am afraid.

MrHifi

10-13-06, 12:26 PM

Rob Tomlin

10-13-06, 12:46 PM

Is the fan really that loud?

I don't recall other HD81 owners mentioning it as being particularly loud.

jruizcristina

10-13-06, 01:02 PM

Wow!!!!!!!! Where has everone gone? AFAIC I have 2 real big negative issues:

1. Fan Noise

2. Masking.. The masking is not as dark as the background material outside of the active picture. When watching a 2.35 movie, I use 16x9 and apply masking to the non picture areas. The mask is not dark enough to match the rest of the black.

Hi Art,

Did you solve the issues with manual zoom / focus? I will be switching sources between:
- widescreen material (DVDs)
- 4:3 material
- LBX material (TV letterboxed movies)
- Computer (several resolutions)

Reading the HD81 manual (page 34) it seems that adjusting the display settings no manual zoom would be needed for this, but I am nor sure if it is so since you posted your problem.
And what about focus? Is it necessary to adjust it when switching sources?

Thanks for any help... you really got me scared reporting this problem

Mike_in_FL

10-13-06, 01:07 PM

I think everyone is busy reading the Pearl-HD81 comparison thread...

I do not find the fan loud or objectionable in low lamp mode - it is quite a bit noisier in "brite" mode, but I do not use it or need it.

My main issue is with the amount of light spill from the projector. There is quite a bit onto the ceiling, and more distractingly (especially in dark scenes), onto the walls 3' to the side of the screen (more on the left than on the right, oddly). There do not appear to be any adjustments I can make for this (although I am willing to be educated on this!), so I may have to persuade my wife that we need to repaint the wall. Oh, and the Iris is too noisy...

Mike

Rob Tomlin

10-13-06, 01:15 PM

yauwing

10-13-06, 01:26 PM

Lumens output changes inversely with the f no. of the lens.
Yes, f no. HD81 is a little smaller at short throw and hence a little brighter.

F no. of HD81's lens does not vary as much as Pearl, so the brightness change is less.

This is base on assumption that the iris of HD81 is wide open. If not, the iris position will have bigger effect on the light output and f no. than the zoom position.

The flip side of this long/short throw/iris vs brightness is contrast increases with f no.

ANY projector will be (slightly) brighter at short throw!

TheLion

10-13-06, 01:32 PM

Lumens output changes inversely with the f no. of the lens.
Yes, f no. HD81 is a little smaller at short throw and hence a little brighter.

F no. of HD81's lens does not vary as much as Pearl, so the brightness change is less.

This is base on assumption that the iris of HD81 is wide open. If not, the iris position will have bigger effect on the light output and f no. than the zoom position.

The flip side of this long/short throw/iris vs brightness is contrast increases with f no.

Exactly Wing! I was trying to keep my answer short and juicy as too much information can be hard to handle... ;)

jmorris644

10-13-06, 01:42 PM

This is the first I have heard about light spill.

Are other HD81 owners seeing this as well?

Yes, I have a halo of light about 3 feet left of the image. (With an upside down projector.)

Joe

Rob Tomlin

10-13-06, 02:39 PM

Yes, I have a halo of light about 3 feet left of the image. (With an upside down projector.)

Joe

Crap.

That is very disappointing. Even with black fabric on the wall around the screen it would be distracting.

I have the same issue with my current pj (Dwin TV3), but it mostly falls on the ceiling, not around the screen.

Mike_in_FL

10-13-06, 02:45 PM

Yes, I have a halo of light about 3 feet left of the image. (With an upside down projector.)

Joe

Yep, that matches my configuration. At least I know it's not just me! It seems to be coming from "within the lens", rather than from somewhere else on the body of the projector. If I stand at the wall where the halo is, I can see light coming from the lens.

Mike

MrHifi

10-13-06, 02:47 PM

Rob,

Yes, the fan is outrageously loud. I posted my readings using my Radio Shack SLM. The main issue at low speed is this whine. Sounds like about 300-500 Hz. Really annoying. At high fan the whine goes away and you are left with a hurricane. Remember, my unit is mounted upside down on the ceiling with an RPAU mount. On the carpeted floor, albeit, it was sitting on a 1x8" piece of wood. it was quite acceptable noisewise. It's the damn wine. No, I do not think anything is wrong with this unit, I think that's it the way they designed the air tunnel for cooling the bulb.

jruizcristina,

The size issues and having to adjust zoom by hand is a major issue. There are lots of these issues. I have spent manyyears setting up CRT projectors. While they have their peculiarities, I find the end product still looks better with a CRT even though the picture is less detailed and "punchy. The ability to mask the non used portion of the 16x9 field when watching 2.35 fims is a big deal. It looks terrible here and is a great annoyance. Re. focus...There is no focus issue. Focus is constant...Set it and forget it.

I sent for the lateral slider adaptors for the RPAU. I want to try small incrememnts to see if I can get a rectangle properly configured. With the DWIN all I had to do was level the edges and the center of the picture to the screen using the digital picture location controls and it fit the screen perfectly. Here someone is going to have to balance on a ladder to find the exact spot where all the corners are 90 degrees. There are a lot of variables that may be causing mine to not be exactly rectangular. I hope I can fix it.

At this point some of you may be asking why I don't return it. The company that sold it to me said they would take it back for a full refund if the bulb had less than an hour on it. That passed about 65 hours ago.

PS...I have the halo of light also. VVVVVVEEEEERRRRRRRRYYYYYy annoting. I believe there is a reflection of the shiny inside of te lens housing. Usually that is darkened.

I hope that new firmware gets posted soon.

glenned

10-13-06, 02:52 PM

At Guitarman's suggestion, I switched my HD-A1 HDMI input to PC levels (instead of Video) and recalibrated my brightness and contrast last night (came out to -2 and 7 respectively). Things looked great afterwards.

Guitarman,

Why would you recommend setting sources to PC levels? In general there are no advantages to doing that, only disadvantages. I expect that you have found something peculiar with the HD81. What is it?

In sending the HDMI output from an HDA1 to a VP30 scaler recently, the VP30 reported that the HDA1 was sending YCbCr 2:2:2, not RGB. I wonder if this has something to do with the changing levels on the HD81.

MrHifi

10-13-06, 03:14 PM

guitarman

10-13-06, 06:52 PM

Guitarman,

Why would you recommend setting sources to PC levels? In general there are no advantages to doing that, only disadvantages. I expect that you have found something peculiar with the HD81. What is it?

In sending the HDMI output from an HDA1 to a VP30 scaler recently, the VP30 reported that the HDA1 was sending YCbCr 2:2:2, not RGB. I wonder if this has something to do with the changing levels on the HD81.

Looks like the bug confused things. First I used the Accupel and the PJ didn't jive with the B/W settings I got. Most likely the bug did it. :)

glenned

10-13-06, 08:39 PM

The reason for using PC Levels is that for some reason everything on my screen is terribly dark. I'm talking black level here not gain. Trying to make out material in shadow or details in a dark show like CSI, is almost impossible. I am at PC level, 0 IRE and the brightness is at +16. At that level I just barely see details in the dark. BTW, I have a 96" wide 1.3 gain DayLite screen. You maye getting sick of hearing it but my DWIN HD700 with 14K hours could resolve black shadowy material. It looks to me like there is just too much punchiness. The brights are so bright that your eyes adjust to the point that the black detail is gone. Just guessing!!!!!!!

From your post I am concluding that there are several interactive settings that you are adjusting in an attempt to increase "shadow detail" and only shadow detail. Unfortunately, the settings that you are adjusting are not for that purpose, and will not work effectively towards that end. Let me elaborate.

PC levels vs. Video levels over HDMI or DVI. This has nothing to do with shadow detail. There are no advantages to using PC levels, only disadvantages, provided that the display has enough range in its Contrast and Brightness controls to match a signal sent at Video levels. Whether you send PC levels or Video levels, you would then set the displays Contrast and Brightness controls to match whichever levels are being used by the source and would get virtually identical pictures. Using Video levels has advantages in achieving accurate scaling. The advantages are small in actual practice and are largely imperceptible, IMO. However, sending Video levels from a source that passes BTB and WTW does make it easier to use a test pattern (like in DVE/Avia/etc) to set Contrast and Brightness to the proper settings.

Contrast and Brightness settings. Despite what one might read in a display's owners manual. These settings are not there to tune a picture to one's personal preferences. For each video source, there is a correct setting for Contrast and Brightness, and it takes a test pattern from each of those sources to set them properly. That being said, there is a small amount of leeway that is appropriate when it comes to setting Brightness, and it is based on the amount of ambient light in the room. For a DLP PJ in a light controlled room the Brightness control should be set so that Black is at extinguishment (or possibly one click above that point). The point of extinguishment is the point where there is no dithering at Black because all the mirrors are in the "off" position. Setting the Contrast control is similar, but a little more complicated. Generally, the proper Contrast control setting is where the PJ displays the brightest D65 White that it can make in response to the video signal for White. It is acceptable to lower the Contrast level slightly below this level to allow the display to display levels Above White, however this must be balanced against the deleterious effect of lowering the display's CR.

Now to the meat and potatoes of what you are after. GAMMA.. The gamma tables of any particular display determine exactly how much of its dynamic range (on/off CR) will be allocated to the signal levels just above Black (the dark grays). The gamma tables dictate just how bright each pixel is in each frame of video that is displayed by your PJ. If the signal levels just above Black are imperceptibly brighter than Black, you won't see them. The larger the increase in brightness from one signal level to the next, the more perceptible it is. This is true at all signal levels, not just near black. Allocating a large part of a display's dynamic range to the levels near Black means that there is less left over to allocate to the rest of the video levels. So there are trade offs.

A display's gamma tables are intentionally designed by its engineers to achieve certain results. Many PJs are designed to crush the levels near Black to hide Mpeg artifacts (mosquito noise) that are found there because owners blame the display for the artifacts and want the display repaired.

What can you do about it? If the display provides a selection of different gamma's, try them until you find the one that is closest to what you prefer. If it provides a means to set custom gammas then use that adjustment. Other than that, you are stuck. Misadjusting Brightness and Contrast will not fix the problem, but it will create other problems that are worse.

Hope this helps.

Glenn