rajdude's Ampro 4200 setup and troubleshooting threads [Text View]

rajdude

10-31-05, 09:42 AM

Hello Everyone,
Friday night, I spent a good amount of time with this PJ. I fired it up and saw that it won’t do anything; I mean it will not accept any commands from the remote. After tinkering with it for a full 2 hrs I finally realized that it maybe in the “executive mode” ! I totally forgot that Most PJs have a “service man” mode so as to set them up. Ampro starts up in the "executive mode" THAT is why no buttons are active at power up!! :o The manual did not tell me to get out of Exec mode first! Or maybe I did not read correctly, after all it was 2 AM in the morning! :eek:

I FINALLY learnt (after wasting a couple of hrs) that you have to put 909 CODE to get the pj respond. :o :o

Here is the first issue (already) :o

Issue #1
The projector’s help menu and test patterns do not seem to be working properly. (or maybe I am not doing something right)

When I press the menu button, (9 times out of 10) the menu does not show up. Instead I get 2-3 words at the bottom right corner. It looks something like this

enu
OBJECT …

Looks like the menu does not come up properly. It looks like there may be something wrong with the help menu/test pattern generator board.

Issue #2
Also the input image does not show up like 70% of times. Do you have to press a button to do it? I have selected the RGB input and selected channel 1.

All help is highly appreciated! :D
-Rajiv

Curt Palme

10-31-05, 10:23 AM

Clarence

10-31-05, 11:10 AM

Hi Raj-

See if this thread helps...
Ampro HELP text not displaying (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6209827&&#post6209827)

-Clarence

Curt Palme

10-31-05, 11:28 AM

Clarence, you are the GOD of old posts.

Heck, I can't remember what I posted yesterday..:)

rajdude

10-31-05, 11:31 AM

Two things. Your memory battery is probably bad, the black rectangular block on the CPU board. It should be at 3.6 volts. Anything under 3.2 or so can cause glitching. Change that first. I have stock if you can't find them, they are starting to get hard to find, but they should be out there.

2) Get rid of all of your blanking. That will cause loss of pix or menus or test patterns. IN each mode (signal, help, test pattern), turn the blanking to min/max, whatever setting is appropriate for the 4 sides. THe 2000 manual is about the same as the 4200. The 4600 manual will give you some extra menu and code functions not outlined in the 2000.

Thanks for the tips Curt! :D I will check the voltage tonight.
Quick Qs
(1). The CPU board is the board on the extreme left, if viewing the pj from the backside (the one where the remote plugs in) right?

(2). Do I have to take out the CPU board to check the voltage of the battery?

(3). I have also got this error at least two times, mostly when I was re-starting the PJ again and again.

"ERROR 20 AT 4e
CHANNEL 77"

Any tips?

-Rajiv

rajdude

10-31-05, 11:37 AM

Hi Raj-

See if this thread helps...
Ampro HELP text not displaying (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6209827&&#post6209827)

-Clarence

Thanks Clarence, that helps. But if you already set the blanking shouldn't it be all set now?? Unless it is losing the memory (like Curt said).

Also, when you had this pj, was it stable? I mean whenever you pressed help, did the menu come up everytime, reliably?

I am also not getting the image (I am feeding) to show up everytime I switch on the PJ. The relays do not click and it seems the tubes do not turn on OR the PJ does not sync to the input (I can hear the loud high frequency noise whenever the picture is about to come on)

-Rajiv

Curt Palme

10-31-05, 11:43 AM

1) Yes
2) No, with pointy test leads you can piuck off the two battery solder points without removing the board (but feel free to..:))

Remove AC power as there's a continuous 5 volts on that board. It will nuke the CPU if the board is removed with power applied. (or at least it can).

3) Data communication error between boards. The battery might cure that.

Clarence

10-31-05, 11:51 AM

I'm pretty sure once I set the blanking, then it persisted the next time I powered up and used the same source resolution.

I know I had to do it 3 or 4 times, but I'm pretty sure that was only when setting up different inputs.

When you power up without getting a picture, does the remote properly indicate the model number?

I never saw anything like "ERROR 20 AT 4e CHANNEL 77". Does it say that on the screen or on the remote? The manual says "ERROR # AT # (I2C ERROR)" Possible cause: Communication failure between internal modules.

Clarence

10-31-05, 11:56 AM

30 CODE

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/9783/30code6hr.gif

Clarence

10-31-05, 12:00 PM

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/3894/amproerrors0ao.gif

4E= Registration
ERROR 20 = Slave to write data address

rajdude

10-31-05, 01:38 PM

I'm pretty sure once I set the blanking, then it persisted the next time I powered up and used the same source resolution.

I know I had to do it 3 or 4 times, but I'm pretty sure that was only when setting up different inputs.

Does "setting up different inputs" mean (say) you were playing your HTPC, but then later you hooked up your DVD player? Hence you had to setup the blanking again?

But again, I have seen the menu work properly at least 2-3 times. But I could not go all the way through (due to you know, take the dog out, have dinner, etc etc :( ). When I came back and re-started the PJ, the menu won't come up at all ! :mad: I'm like ...hey this thing was working properly 10 minutes ago! :mad:

When you power up without getting a picture, does the remote properly indicate the model number?

Yes, and if I do a system status code (it is 30-CODE I guess) it says everything is fine. Then it just says RGB input, Channel <whatever> but does not display anything. :mad:

Of course this happens intermittently. 10% of times it works properly. :confused:

I never saw anything like "ERROR 20 AT 4e CHANNEL 77". Does it say that on the screen or on the remote? The manual says "ERROR # AT # (I2C ERROR)" Possible cause: Communication failure between internal modules.

It displays that message on the LCD. The screen is totally blank. :confused:

rajdude

10-31-05, 01:38 PM

4E= Registration
ERROR 20 = Slave to write data address

Thanks for scraping up the info :D :D

-RM

Clarence

10-31-05, 02:32 PM

Of course, I have no idea what "Slave to write data address" is supposed to mean, but it's probably a loose connector or like Curt suggested, maybe a weak battery.

What's the part # on the Registration board?

Does "setting up different inputs" mean (say) you were playing your HTPC, but then later you hooked up your DVD player? Hence you had to setup the blanking again?Yes... if I switched from PC 1280x1024, to HD DVR 1080i/720p, then to DVD, etc

rajdude

11-01-05, 10:28 AM

OK!! :D :D
I am in a good mood today because the Ampro put a reasonable picture yesterday night. Now I can see what new picture tubes on a CRT PJ can do. :)

Action #1 (battery voltage)
Curt, I checked the voltage of the Battery. It is kinda strange, but I am getting 0.36 volts across the terminals. :confused: After running the PJ for 2 hrs that voltage was still 0.38 V

Here is how I tested it.
The card was in the slot (I did not take it out) The PJ was turned off . (Even when the PJ was switched on, the voltage was the same). Please refer to the diagram below:-

http://www.neilmehra.com/images/avs/Batt_on_CPU_Board.jpg

Between the points…
A and B it measures 0.36 volts
B to D measures 0 volts
C to D measures 0 volts
A to D measures 0 volts (not sure about this one, forgot)

Which points are the correct ones?
[added later] the points A and B are the correct ones. With reference from Curt's site
http://www.curtpalme.com/Ampro1500.htm

The Battery says 3.5 volts Lithium on it. Isn’t it supposed to be a rechargeable battery? Doesn’t look like that, since even when the PJ is powered up, the battery voltage is still the same.

Also the PJ seems to retain the memory even at this low voltage, why?
[added later] actually, it does not. I confirmed this later on

Action #2 (The menu issue)
I tried the blanking, Clarence was right. My top and left blanking was at the max settings.
BUT even after I set the blanking to minimum the menu won’t come up. Then I saw a code for “initialize test screens” in the manual. THAT did the trick. :D After that I also set another code, that one is right below the “initialize test screens” code I guess it is to reset all help screens to the default parameters.

Action # 3 (convergence)
After that I proceeded to do a full convergence. This PJ’s menu driven setup is very helpful. :cool: It is a very long and tedious process but I am getting the hang of it. I did not finish it last night as it was 1 AM by the time I did the RED to GREEN convergence. :( I will continue tonight.

Also, I notice that the internal test patterns are very noisy. I’ll try feeding an external test pattern after I go through all the help screens.

[added later] external test patterns are pristine!I'll NEVER use the internal test patterns on this again. BTW, I am usign a HTPC to feed test patterns to the PJ. The philips test pattern generator is awesome. That lets you put out dots, which the Nokia TPG does not.

Thanks for all tips.
-Rajiv :D

Z-Photo

11-01-05, 11:19 AM

R-

You have much higher pain threshold than I do. :D

I gave up on the whole Ampro codes thing.....

Pete

rajdude

11-01-05, 11:35 AM

R-

You have much higher pain threshold than I do. :D

I gave up on the whole Ampro codes thing.....

Pete

Pete,
Actually, I find them pretty straighforward. All you need is a cheat-sheet. I think (sometimes) it gets work done faster than going through a set of menus like on my Sony.

I also wonder why some people talk about the dreaded "incorrect direction" error message. You merely have to use the STEP and the TEST to go forward and backward respectively through the menu system.

(I'd agree that having to press TEST to go "backward" is kinda stupid :( :( but once you memorise it the routine becomes second nature, like driving a car. :D )

Overall I like the guided setup system, if only the test patterns were accurate and sharp. OR maybe my PJ's test patterns are not good.

Other Ampro owners, are your test patterns sharp??

I will post screenshots tonight to show what I am talking about here.

-RM

phooka

11-01-05, 02:23 PM

Clarence,

"Slave Write to ..." is an I2C error. I2C is an 2 wire serial interconnect bus. Basically in the case discussed above, the CPU tried to set up one of the registration control DACs and failed to get the command acknowledged.

rajdude,

The I2C bus is strung all over the ampro chassis. Get yourself some good contact cleaner and clean every plug and wire harness you can. The 2 wire connections that are not part of the video signal chain are the i2c bus. A dirty/partial contact anywhere in there can cause the i2c errors.

The ampro i2c bus isn't clocked too high... but it does go all over the chassis. Cleaning up the contacts will make the covergance _much_ more stable.

If you keep getting i2c errors I can point you at some circuits to build and i2c sniffer the hooks to a PC parallel port. That can shed all kinds of light on i2c glitches.

--
Nick

phooka

11-01-05, 02:51 PM

To follow up... god I hate doing this....

rajdude,

make sure your source is on and you are on the right channel before entering help->setup or the genlock can be way off. In any case it will be off. At least on the 2300, 2600HD, and 4000 I have seen, the testpaterns are not great.

If you can use something else as a test pattern, do so. Skip the guided setup and walk through the the setup steps found in the service manual. All guided setup does is flip the registration board on and off, and really make flipping between pincusion/keystone/horizontal/vertical a real PITA.

Also get the magnetics right.... longer term stability of the convergence is on these Ampros is much better than their reputation.

--
Nick

rajdude

11-01-05, 03:40 PM

The I2C bus is strung all over the ampro chassis. Get yourself some good contact cleaner and clean every plug and wire harness you can. The 2 wire connections that are not part of the video signal chain are the i2c bus. A dirty/partial contact anywhere in there can cause the i2c errors.
Nick

Thanks for the tip, Nick :D
yesterday night I did not get that error even once (knock on wood :eek: ) but if it happens regularly I will look into the possibility of cleaning the contacts.

BTW, what does the I2C bus connectors look like and where are they located?

Thanks
Rajiv

rajdude

11-01-05, 03:45 PM

To follow up... god I hate doing this....

snip
If you can use something else as a test pattern, do so.
snip

Yes, tonight I will hook up the HTPC (lets say it is just a wanna-be HTPC) and use the Nokia test generator. Any tips on what the contrast setting should be while I am displaying the convergence patterns so as to prevent burn-in (for a reasonably long time)??

Also get the magnetics right.... longer term stability of the convergence is on these Ampros is much better than their reputation.

Yes, I will do that too. I read the Guy Kuo manual, I understand that the focus and magnetics are to be tweaked first; then comes convergence.

Thanks again

rajdude

11-01-05, 04:46 PM

phooka

11-01-05, 07:26 PM

I have never seen the inside of a 4200. Going from the 2600 and 2300 that shared lots of boards with the 4200 the main connections that carry the i2c bus that I have found are:

- CPU board connectors (the bottom of the cpu card to the backplane)
- the RGB1 card connectors to the backplane
- a 20 or so pin ribbon cable from the backplane to the registration board
- the 2 wire connections from the PLL (the metal encased subboard on the registration tray) to the focus modulator board

While you are at it clean the RGB connections from RGB1 card to the neckboards. Since the video preamps are on the neckboards, these connections really need to be solid to avoid noise.

Basically figure the machine is ~10 years old. There is going to be oxidation on all the contacts. Cleaning can't hurt -- unless you fail to connect everything up properly

good luck

--
Nick

tse

11-01-05, 08:16 PM

"Other Ampro owners, are your test patterns sharp??

I will post screenshots tonight to show what I am talking about here.

-RM "

Press "4" then "test" for internal test patterns that are gen-locked to the external video source.

Don't expect too much, the internal test patterns never did work perfectly.

rajdude

11-01-05, 10:16 PM

I just fired it up and to my dismay all the convergence I did last night is gone!! :mad:

Is there some SAVE button somewhere? I cannot find any reference in the manual. I do see a CODE to "validate and protect..."

Is this the SAVE settings option?

-RM

tse

11-01-05, 10:31 PM

Dion^Swamp

11-02-05, 04:28 AM

I have 2 questions for AVS member -- Dion^Swamp

Question 1
I see that you changed the belly fans of the 4200G with 120mm ones. I'd like to do that too. But how about the current draw? Does a bigger replacement fan cause any issues with any sensors? (I do not know if this PJ has sensors which detect if a fan has failed)

The normal belly fans are powered at 20V, so you need to run a new set of wires to the tiny PSU fan and hook them up there.

The PSU fan runs at 12V and has a regulator (7812 afaik) of its own that it shares with the powerled.

There is no fan sensors and they draw very little current anyway, so I had no issues changing them.

Question 2
Also do you really have to take everything out of the the chasis and disassmble it completely (like the pictures on your website) to enlarge the hole for the 120MM fans?

Yes, everything must come apart to enlarge the holes otherwise you risk getting metal filings in the electronics and you don't want that.

Don't sweat taking it apart, it's very easy to do and you will probably want to take the tubes out anyway to change the glycol.

Other than not having a dog or small children in the room while doing it I'd say that there are two things that you need to be careful with: Handling the tubes and getting every single plug attached before starting it up again.

For more air-flow, did you consider adding fans where you made 4 holes (on the top of the case?)

That could be done, but I got a nice result from just putting in vents, I want to keep the noise down and I don't think you can fit any fans on the inside of the lid.

If you find the convergence tray to be too hot even after adding vents, you can probably fix it by using gruntier bellyfans, I used the quietest (and most wimpy) fans I could get my hands on.

rajdude

11-02-05, 11:18 AM

There is no "save" function. All adjustments are saved in the "channel" that they were made in. If the battery voltage is really 0.38V like you measured, the battery is shot. Strange things are gonna happen.

Thanks tse,
I just ordered the battery from Allied Electronics. :D
https://www.alliedelec.com/Search/ProductDetail.asp?SKU=710-5020&SEARCH=LTC%2D7P&ID=&DESC=LTC%2D7P

Around $15 + shipping. Strangely their website does not show the shipping costs. I even called them up, the lady told me that even she has no way to know the shipping costs! :(

rajdude

11-02-05, 11:32 AM

The normal belly fans are powered at 20V, so you need to run a new set of wires to the tiny PSU fan and hook them up there.

The PSU fan runs at 12V and has a regulator (7812 afaik) of its own that it shares with the powerled.

There is no fan sensors and they draw very little current anyway, so I had no issues changing them.

Hmm, as the power supply already has issues with heat and possibly overloading, I may want to hook up the 12 volt fans to the existing 20 V wires. I will just use a 7812 on a tiny PCB OR maybe a simple power resistor will do too.

Yes, everything must come apart to enlarge the holes otherwise you risk getting metal filings in the electronics and you don't want that.

Don't sweat taking it apart, it's very easy to do and you will probably want to take the tubes out anyway to change the glycol.

Other than not having a dog or small children in the room while doing it I'd say that there are two things that you need to be careful with: Handling the tubes and getting every single plug attached before starting it up again.

About taking it apart...
Well, I am REALLY worried about all those connections and me leaving one disconnected by accident and ruining the tubes or the electronics :eek:

Plus all the time involved in dismantling and putting it back CAREFULLY.

I will think of another way, but I have to do the glycol too... :o
Do you really have to take out the tubes for changing the glycol?

About changing the glycol
Yes, I do need to change to glycol. I found a doc with some pretty elaborate instructions. I doubt if all this needs to be done to just change to glycol. Please have a look at the attachment here and let me know how it compares with what you did to change to glycol.

(I am really concerned about all the cutting described in the doc)

I am assuming all we need to do is to open the screws and drain out the glycol and put it back it, right?
Why the Silicon caulk and all that cutting??

rajdude

11-02-05, 11:46 AM

Guys,
Where can I find the glycol locally?? ( I am in Northern Virginia)
Any chain stores, Radioshack?

Otherwise, I see it at MCM:
http://mcm.newark.com/NewarkWebCommerce/mcm/en_US/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp;jsessionid=LJYPPOKGW2OWACXFEOFCFGQK2URYWIV1?S KU=20-2041&N=0

Is this the right one?

-Rajiv

Dion^Swamp

11-02-05, 03:02 PM

Hmm, as the power supply already has issues with heat and possibly overloading, I may want to hook up the 12 volt fans to the existing 20 V wires. I will just use a 7812 on a tiny PCB OR maybe a simple power resistor will do too.

That's a bit silly, the 7812 that regulates power for the PSU fan doesn't do any other work, it will not mind an extra 200mA.

Your PSU is not overloaded, but it's not being ventilated very well, so a better fan and more holes are a good idea.

Well, I am REALLY worried about all those connections and me leaving one disconnected by accident and ruining the tubes or the electronics :eek:

Don't worry, it's not all that bad, most connectors are impossible to plug in wrong (unless you try) and all you need to do is to go over every connection twice before turning it on again.

Plus all the time involved in dismantling and putting it back CAREFULLY.

You don't have to be that careful, if you have ever worked with a PC you know all you need to, don't use any violence and be careful with the tubes and you will do fine.

Remember: These machines are built to be taken apart a lot:)

I will think of another way

Please don't to make the holes you really need to manhandle the chassis, so leaving any electronics or the tubes in the there is a bad idea.

Do you really have to take out the tubes for changing the glycol?

Yes, this is what I did (for each tube):
1) Remove lenses (the 3 hex bolts)
2) Remove all connections to tube/neck including the neckboard.
3) Unscrew the long bolts that are used to lock the tube for toe-in.
4) Unscrew the top and bottom pivot bolts.
5) Carefully pull the tube out the front, taking care not to hit anything with the the neck.

6) Open the top plate that covers the expansion bellows.
7) Let rubber soak in bleach and scrub with a plastic brush.
8) Discard glycol.

9) Unmount c-element (remove screws and push on the inside of the element though the fill-hole), put it in soapy water and carefully wash it using nothing but your rubber gloves.

10) Put the tube on the edge of your sink and rinse/wash the inside of the champer and the tube-surface with a plastic brush and warm soapy water.

11) Once all three pieces are absolutely spotless rinse each in demineralized water.

12) Mount the c-element.

13) Fill chamber with bleach and let it soak for a while.

14) Rinse chamber a couple of times with demi-water.

15) Fill with glycol.

16) Mount bellows (I had to use some drops of glue to keep it aligned while mounting the plate).

17) Reverse the mounting procedure and repeat for the rest of the tubes.

The cleaning of the LC chamber takes lots of water and detergents that you don't want anywhere near electionics.

You need to clean the insides of the chamber , changing the glycol is not enough.

Yes, I do need to change to glycol. I found a doc with some pretty elaborate instructions.Why
the Silicon caulk and all that cutting??

Forget about it, there is no chaulking or cutting involved, the Ampros use a different scheimpflug system than the normal HD10 setup, on the Ampro the LC champer is fixed to the tube and the rest of the optics is flapping around.

On normal HD10 systems the LC chamber is deformed to provide scheimpflug.

Ray Cendroski

11-02-05, 06:37 PM

rajdude

11-03-05, 09:10 AM

That's a bit silly, the 7812 that regulates power for the PSU fan doesn't do any other work, it will not mind an extra 200mA.

Your PSU is not overloaded, but it's not being ventilated very well, so a better fan and more holes are a good idea.

Ok, that sounds good. I thought that 7812 is supplying power to other circuits too. I shoud have looked at the schematic first. Thanks :-)

Don't worry, it's not all that bad, most connectors are impossible to plug in wrong (unless you try) and all you need to do is to go over every connection twice before turning it on again.

You don't have to be that careful, if you have ever worked with a PC you know all you need to, don't use any violence and be careful with the tubes and you will do fine.

Remember: These machines are built to be taken apart a lot:)

Please don't to make the holes you really need to manhandle the chassis, so leaving any electronics or the tubes in the there is a bad idea.

Yes, I work with PCs (servers, mostly) for a living and have been an avid electronics hobbist. Although I have not done any major projects for the past 5 years but I am sure I am not that rusty. :cool:

Hey Dion, your words give me confidence. Thanks! I will take the tubes out and photo-document everything on my website and on this thread. :D

Yes, this is what I did (for each tube):

<snip>

7) Let rubber soak in bleach and scrub with a plastic brush.

snip

11) Once all three pieces are absolutely spotless rinse each in demineralized water.

snip

13) Fill chamber with bleach and let it soak for a while.

Quick Questions:-

1. Why use bleach on rubber?

2. Is it to kill the fungus?

3. Is demineralized water the same thing as distilled water?

4. The local pharmacy has some distilled water, it is good enough?

Thanks again for all your help and tips! :)
-Rajiv

rajdude

11-03-05, 09:58 AM

Like Dion said, changing the fluid is pretty easy. You don't need to take the tubes out:

- Just take the lenses off.
- Take top plate off top of each Liquid Coupled tank.
- Siphon out old fluid until it is below the bottom edge of the C element face.
- Unbolt C element to gain access to tube face. The screws can be very tight. Use a proper fitting allen wrench and go slowly so you don't strip the heads.
- Clean everything multiple times and re-assemble. I only clean the C element with soap and water by hand. I use a soft "t" shirt to dry. Be careful, the C elements are easy to scuff and scratch.

I get my fluid from:

http://www.mcmelectronics.com

Do a search for crt coolant 20-4275. It takes a 16 oz can per tube.

Attached is a picture of my 4200 when I recently changed the fluid. The tubes were like new when I got it, and 5 years of heavy use later, they still look like new.

Ray

Hi Ray,
Thanks for the tips. So changing the coolant seems pretty straightforward.

On MCM I can see the coolant you used. I also see another one from Rite Off ...
http://mcm.newark.com/NewarkWebCommerce/mcm/en_US/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp;jsessionid=LJYPPOKGW2OWACXFEOFCFGQK2URYWIV1?S KU=20-2041&N=0

Description:

MCM Part No.: 20-2041
Manufacturer: null

Description: CRT COOLANT 24 OZ. Green Tree Chemical Technologies Inc Projection TV CRT Coolant, Size: 24 oz, Replaces: Magnavox #4835-310-57233 and RCA #212072, Features: High purity optional grade projection TV heat transfer fluid, Quantity: 24 cans per case

Is this any better?
The words "Optical grade" makes it more attractive to me and also it is a 24 oz can.

But, on the other hand Techspray is a big company too and has a good website. I could not find any website for Rite Off or Green Tree Chemical Tech.

Actually MCM has coolants from RCA and philips too.

Oh my god, so many options! :o :o

-Rajiv

rajdude

11-03-05, 10:02 AM

Dion and Ray (and others too),
How much of a difference did changing the C elements to color corrected ones make to the image of an Ampro 4200G?

I see lots of people doing this but how come the same C elements work well for all picture tubes?

Don't the guns have different shades of green and red and hence need different shades of C elements? :confused: :confused:

Or maybe the tubes are all the same??? naaah :eek:

-Rajiv

Dion^Swamp

11-05-05, 12:25 PM

The C-element is a part of the complete optical package, so for all HD10 optics you will have the same shape of C-element.

For the HD10 optics there are 3 different colors of C-element: Clear, Red and Green.

I can't really tell if there was much difference in adding the red c-element and the green one had to be changed because it was cooked.

HD10 optics are used for many different 8" and 9" tubes.

Dion^Swamp

11-05-05, 12:32 PM

1. Why use bleach on rubber?
2. Is it to kill the fungus?
3. Is demineralized water the same thing as distilled water?
4. The local pharmacy has some distilled water, it is good enough?

The bleach is for killing whatever might be living in the glycol, it's what the decontamination procedure from Ampro calls for.

demi-water is just water whith the minerals removed, distilled water is even cleaner, it's cheaper than distilled water though, but for this use either will do.

Clarence

11-05-05, 12:52 PM

Dion and Ray (and others too),
I see lots of people doing this but how come the same C elements work well for all picture tubes?

Don't the guns have different shades of green and red and hence need different shades of C elements? :confused: :confused:

Or maybe the tubes are all the same???The 9" tubes might be different, but the 9" HD-10 lenses and their c-elements are the same.

The C-element is a part of the complete optical package, so for all HD10 optics you will have the same shape of C-element.

For the HD10 optics there are 3 different colors of C-element: Clear, Red and Green.My understanding is that there are actually 2 shades of Green c-elements... the original Sony G90 green, and the darker Marquee HD10 green. I'm replacing my G90 green with the deeper shade Marquee HD10 green... it's supposed to help the resulting colorimetry track closer to reference.

Dion^Swamp

11-05-05, 01:12 PM

Yep, that's true, my old 4200 green element was a tad darker than the new one I got, I don't know that PJ it came out of though.

rajdude

11-07-05, 10:12 AM

Guys,
thanks for the info.

I believe all three elements in my 4200 are absolutely clear.

I am still waiting for the battery to arrive in the mail and only after I replace it, it will be worth working on it. I'm gonna start shopping for the ceiling mounts soon. The whole weekend was spent fencing the front yard. Way too much hard work, I tell you :mad:

-Rajiv

rajdude

11-07-05, 10:16 AM

Update:
I ordered the glycol from MCM...
MCM Part No.: 20-2041

http://mcm.newark.com/NewarkWebCommerce/mcm/en_US/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp;jsessionid=LJYPPOKGW2OWACXFEOFCFGQK2URYWIV1?S KU=20-2041&N=0

It is supposed to come in tomorrow. I'm planning to just replace the glycol and see how it looks. If the PJ displays reds as orange-ish, I'll order the C-elements.

Clarence, Please keep us updated about the color improvements after you put in the C-elements on your G-90

-Rajiv

rajdude

11-08-05, 09:07 AM

Ok folks,
I received the battery from Allied Electronics yesterday. I installed it yesterday night and I’m a happy camper! All the menus are working properly now (touch wood). The PJ holds the memory. The startup glitch (where I had to switch the PJ on-off at least once so that the name shows up on the LCD remote) is gone. It just says Ampro 4200G every time I power it up, Hooray!

For your information
I used the battery change procedure as described by Curt on his site:
http://www.curtpalme.com/Ampro1500.htm
Worked like a charm!

I did not get time to do the convergence on the PJ last night, but I will do that tonight. I will be using a HTPC as my primary source. Phillips test pattern generator is my choice for the test patterns for convergence and other stuff.

Question for you guys:

Should I do the convergence while running the HTPC at 1080P (actually 1920x1440) or 720p (actually 1280x1024)? OR does it even matter?

Thanks for reading and posting answers here, I appreciate all your help!
-Rajiv

Dion^Swamp

11-08-05, 11:43 AM

Yes, you will need to redo all of the electronic setup, including convergence, for each mode you want to use.

The best solution is to use the actual source for the setup as there are other important parameters than the resolution (hsync, vsync, front/backporch and v blanking period).

Z-Photo

11-08-05, 01:50 PM

R-

Glad that it was something simple....

enjoy

phooka

11-08-05, 07:10 PM

I'd sahy do 720p or 1080i first and get those dialed in. 1080p will be harder to get dialed. With 720p and 1080i you should be able to get visible scanlines at a few inches from the screen no problem. Once you have a feel for the Ampro, and a couple of setups done, the go for 1080p.

Also wait it you get the fans upgraded and the glycol changed before putting the time to get 1080p setup in.

Also given the HTPC is really and external pattern generator for you, skip the "guided" setup in the help menu and just follow the steps in the Service Manual. I find the "guided" setup a PITA and you are stuck with the genlocked internal test patterns for everything but the phase, blanking, and size.

good luck

--
NIck

rajdude

11-09-05, 09:13 AM

Quick Questions:

What is the “Black level Clamp point” {48-CODE} ?
What should I set it to?
What does Sync Tip or Back Porch mean?

tse

11-09-05, 11:57 AM

rajdude

11-11-05, 09:50 AM

Sync tip clamp is generally used for four or five wire input. (RGBHV)

Back porch clamp is generally used with sync on green or three wire input.

If the picture turns real green when in sync tip clamp mode, switch to back porch.

Thanks tse,
that helps !

I wonder why it defaults to the back porch. dont we all use RGBHV. Who has sync on green?

-Rajiv

rajdude

11-11-05, 09:53 AM

Hello guys,
I made some good progress yesterday night. I did the convergence almost all the way through. I am having some issues and would appreciate if you can help me out here:-

Issue # 1 I cannot use anything above 1024x768.

If I set my HTPC to anything above that resolution I have weird problems. I should have taken a picture but could not find my tripod. I will take pics tonight. But anyway let me describe. :cool:

The bottom and the right side of the image gets screwed up at higher resolutions. When I put on the Philips test pattern ( I am using this exclusively) at full screen the right side border is not displayed. The vertical lines at the bottom one foot of the screen start dancing left-right. Here is the strangest thing. Even with the Test Pattern at full screen mode, I see the windows task bar! :eek: :eek: :eek: Yes, the bar at the bottom of the screen where we see the “start” button on the leftmost side that the time clock on the rightmost side. I first thought that there is something wrong with my VGA card so I hooked up the CRT monitor, everything is fine! :confused:

Oh, one more thing… 1280x960 works fine. But the circles are then ovals.

Any tips? :confused:
I am using a cheap 6 feet long VGA to 5-BNC cable to feed the PJ now. :o

Issue # 2 some of the dynamic settings are at max or near max
I have to set the dynamic left keystone to the max, even then the left side is not 100% vertical. It is like 95% vertical. The right side is fine.

I notice that some other setting are also close to max, like 90 or 85.

So two questions here:
Is this putting extreme strain on the convergence circuits?
Any solution / alternative.

Of course I have done the static adjustments first. If I toggle the registration on-off the center does not wiggle.

Issue # 3 Is it OK to use “phase” adjustments to center the image on the raster?
I am close to max on the horizontal phase.

Issue # 4 Will feeding resolutions or refresh rates higher than the PJ can display damage it?
Yesterday I tried to feed more than 1920x1440, I guess it was like 2040 x something. I PJ just became blank. I got scared and pulled the power plug. Later when windows went back to the lower rez, I plugged the PJ back in and it worked fine. Same thing happened with refresh rates higher than 85 Hz.

Did I cause any damage? :confused:

Issue # 5 No Video on startup.
When I power on the PJ and feed it a RGBHV input via my HTPC, it does not show anything on the screen. The screen is blank. I try to change channels, change sources put up test patterns and turn them off….nothing happens.

The ONLY way to get video is to start the HELP system and then get out of the HELP menu. Thereafter the video comes up. Why? Any solution to this issue?

Thanks for reading through all this text and all your tips/inputs. :)
-Rajiv

Clarence

11-11-05, 10:27 AM

It handled 1680x1050 fine from my laptop... that's the closest resolution my laptop had to 1080p.

rajdude

11-11-05, 10:35 AM

It handled 1680x1050 fine from my laptop... that's the closest resolution my laptop had to 1080p.

Oh yes,
It does Display an image all the way up to 1920x1440. Its just that it is distorted at the bottom and the right side is clipped off. :confused:

-Rajiv

Clarence

11-11-05, 10:41 AM

Are you sure that your video card has been enabled for max res? Usually the default max is something like 1280x1024 and any res above that will clip the extra pixels or give a scrolling desktop when you mouse over to that side.

What video card are you using?

rajdude

11-11-05, 10:56 AM

Are you sure that your video card has been enabled for max res?

AFAIK there no such thing on my PC.
Note: I am using a regular PC, not a laptop.

Usually the default max is something like 1280x1024 and any res above that will clip the extra pixels or give a scrolling desktop when you mouse over to that side.

Hmm, I have see that happen ONLY on LCD panels (and laptops) which (as WE all know are fixed pixel devices) Hence the scrolling desktop!

CRT monitors, on the other hand, will either sync up with the higher resolution and show the image OR just show a blank screen with or without an error message, something like "input out of range"

When I hook up my CRT monitor to the PC, the desktop shows up fine, The patterns are 100% accurate, no distortion and clipping at the sides.

What video card are you using?

I am using an onboard video card on an Intel D865GBFL motherboard. See it here...
http://www.intel.com/products/motherboard/d865gbf/index.htm

I also have an old nvidia geForce MX440 with 64 MB RAM. That one is not able to show smooth 1080p, so I took it out of my HTPC and resorted to using the onboard video. The onboard video system shows 1080p quite smoothly, but the frame rate is like 19 fps. Shouldn't it be a full 24 fps?

At this point, I do not think there is anything wrong with the video card since it displays a good accurate image on my CRT monitor.

-Rajiv

Clarence

11-11-05, 11:08 AM

If the card is displaying a resolution properly on a monitor then the 4200 should be able to handle it too.

rajdude

11-11-05, 04:26 PM

A few hrs left before I work on the PJ again. I hope to finish the convergence tonight so that we can FINALLY watch something on the beast on the weekend.

Any tips for my issues?

-Rajiv

tse

11-11-05, 07:42 PM

rajdude

11-14-05, 12:09 PM

Alot of monitors have an on screen display that will tell the horizontal and vertical sync frequencies. It might help to check what those resolutions are running at. The projector should tell the same story by entering 36 and code on the remote control. Check and see what your 30 code says when it's not displaying a picture.

tse,
(what's your real name?) A 30-CODE says "everything is fine". A 36 -code says 48xxx. (xxx are some numbers I do not remember. I think my HTPC is set to 50 Hz refresh rate.

It still behaves the same. I HAVE to put on the help menu and shut it downin order to get the PJ to display video. Otherwise the screen is blank.

Well I see no takers for this thread other than tse. (thanks tse). I will post another thread specifically for this problem.

-Rajiv

rajdude

11-29-05, 11:49 AM

So, last weekend we watched our first movie on the Ampro. something about Jerusalem and history,....I forgot the name.

The PJ put out a very good picture. At the starting the pic was too dark, then I had to tweak the Mediaplayer Classic's contrast, brigtness and saturation to achieve a watchable image.

At this point I have not done any calibration on it, not even a DVE or AVIA type thing. Actually some relatives were over ours and they were rooting for a demo of the beast :p

I noticed one thing, the heatsink on the convergence board gets way too hot ! :mad: I measured a steady 129 F on it. :eek: :eek:

I have a wired indoor/outdoor type thermometer for the PJ. That heatsink gets no air via convection! The fins are vertical but there are no holes/openings are the bottom of the heatsink. No airflow!

I'll say it is a bad design if those Power Op-Amps have to dissipate so much heat.

I'm ordering some silent fans today and Ill do the fan mods as Dion did.

Thanks for reading!
-Rajiv

Clarence

11-29-05, 03:13 PM

rajdude

12-06-05, 10:26 AM

Congrats, Rajiv. I'll have to come see it soon.

Did you replace the glycol? In all tubes or just the worst one(s)?
Did you replace the c-element(s) or just clean them?
What resolution did you end up at? What sources? What screen and size?
Did you build the unistrut ceiling mount?

Hi Clarence,
sorry for the delay, no time for working on the PJ. I'm sure you will be dissapointed by my replied here...

No I did not replace the Glycol yet. I do have the bottles, though.

No I did not replace the C-elements either

I ran it a 1024x768 from a HTPC. I have a 64"x48" da-lite screen .It is portable with 2.2 gain. I need to replace it. Why so small...well the room is not too wide and my speakers take up too much space.

No I did not build the unistrut yet. It is just setup on a wooden box.

Of course no one in the family wants to watch it. I really need to set it up properly. Now only if I can get the outdoor projects done before winter really sets in :o :o :o

Cheers!
Rajiv

Clarence

12-06-05, 10:34 AM

rajdude

12-06-05, 11:55 AM

rajdude

12-07-05, 07:23 AM

OK Folks,
I FINALLY made some progress yesterday evening. I cut open the ceiling to hang the PJ. I will post the pics soon, I could not find the CF card reader today. :(

I am counting on the Ampro SIP program for the distancee to the screen. I have also double checked it by projecting an image onto the screen, I think it is fairly accurate. I have to use the smallest screen setting the program will allow - 72 inches. The room is too small.

I have an issue though..

How do I max out the image on the raster?

Even when I have maxed out the image width setting on the remote control of my Ampro, the image is still not maxed out on the raster....around half an inch remains dark on th sides. What to do ? :o

Please help!

-Rajiv

alan halvorson

12-07-05, 04:33 PM

I have to use the smallest screen setting the program will allow - 72 inches.

Is that 72" wide or diagonal?

Ray Cendroski

12-07-05, 08:20 PM

Z-Photo

12-07-05, 08:25 PM

Amazing how an Ampro makes grown men cry - just like women.

stefuel

12-08-05, 01:38 AM

Amazing how an Ampro makes grown men cry - just like women.

Yep, when you see one set up correctly, the image just brings tears to your eyes :D

Chip

Z-Photo

12-08-05, 01:41 AM

Yep, when you see one set up correctly, the image just brings tears to your eyes :D

Chip

Will have to see it to believe it.

I mean a working Ampro that is . :D

Ray Cendroski

12-08-05, 06:30 AM

Will have to see it to believe it.

I mean a working Ampro that is . :D

My Ampro 4200 has been cranking out glorius movies on a 10.5' wide screen for over 4 years with nary a hitch. I love my Ampro(s)....

Ray

rajdude

12-08-05, 08:02 AM

Is that 72" wide or diagonal?

Hi Alan,
It is 72 " wide.

I know some people will tell me...why bother with a front CRT PJ with such a small screen...just get a CRT RPTV and be done with it !!
HA HA !

Well these things are fun right?

-Rajiv

rajdude

12-08-05, 08:05 AM

Rajiv,

There is a "Width" pot on the HOT board that will help. That's the large board mounted on the right side of the projector. It's just to the left and below the input fuse on the upper right side of the board.

Ray

Thanks for the tip , Ray.

Hey I remember it has been discussed here, but looks like it is a bad idea to adjust that pot. I guess it makes the PJ run hotter and it may fail or become unreliable. UNLESS the neckboard heatsinks are NOT running hot (am I getting it right?)

What is your take on that?

I guess by this time you have had a lot of experience running your PJ with maxed out rasters? I'd like to know a "long term testers" opinion on this.

Also, other people's comments?

Rajiv

danstone

12-08-05, 01:06 PM

Also, other people's comments?Ray's info is always extremely helpful, and Walter Allen from Ampro has also stated that he would recommend maxing out the rasters on the Ampro just as with any other CRT PJ. I've noticed the same thing being posted here repeatedly, however, regarding the seeming lack of capability on the Ampros to max out the raster without using the width pot. As we've seen posted repeatedly, primarily in NEC threads, adjusting the width pot frequently causes problems often leading to a component failure shortly after. Since tse used to work at the Ampro factory, I'd be very interested in hearing any feedback they can offer on all of this. Hopefully a missing piece or two of the puzzle may come to light.

rajdude

12-09-05, 08:44 AM

so I went to Lowes to buy parts for the ceiling mount yesterday night. I was surprised I spent 2 hrs trying to find all the various nuts and bolts and washers there! :mad: I go the grade 8 ones..hardened and looks like they can take a good load.

Anyway, I am curious how much load can these bolts (5/16"-18) can hold.

Are they strong enough? Look pretty tiny to me! :eek:

They are the ones which screw right into the chasis of the PJ at the bottom. There are only 4 of them (although I see 4 more 2 of which do not align properly and 2 are at the extreme rear of the PJ)

Others, are you using just these 4 bolts to hang the PJ?

Z-Photo

12-09-05, 09:30 AM

rajdude

12-09-05, 10:19 AM

R-

It is funny how often this comes up. But yes most of the PJ I have seen have only 4 tiny screws attaching the rail to the case.

These screws are in tension and are rated (Annealed 304SS is 95K psi) for a lot more than the PJ weighs.

Honestly the threads in the aluminum frame will fail first.

Pete

HI Pete,
Thanks.....Now I am trying to understand what kip means so that I can visualize it in lyman's terms....something like ....."how much load can this take before it breaks"

from www.onlineconversion.com I see that
for grade 1 bolts 60 kip/square inch = 30 ton/square inch [short]
for grade 8 bolts 150 kip/square inch = 75 ton/square inch [short]

(I can get grade 8 bolts in Lowes.)

Bolt ratings taken from http://www.unified-eng.com/scitech/bolt/boltmarks.html

So if I calculate the cross-sectional area of this 9/16" bolt it is around 0.24" so does it mean that it will take 18 tons on this bolt to shear it!

Sounds wrong to me ! How come such a tiny bolt be shear-load rated at around 18 tons ! :eek:

Unless my math is all wrong (most likely)

-Rajiv

Ps I agree that those threads will fail first! ;)

Z-Photo

12-09-05, 10:36 AM

R-

You should see what high strength steel will do..... :D

The cross sectional is actually a bit smaller and there are load knock downs due to the machining of the threads.

That is not the shear load it is the ultimate tensile load - the bolt (assembly) will fail before that. meaning that the threads will elongated and fail.

regardless - the bolts will sustain a significant load - much more that the static weight of the ampro....

rajdude

01-03-06, 02:31 PM

Ray's info is always extremely helpful, and Walter Allen from Ampro has also stated that he would recommend maxing out the rasters on the Ampro just as with any other CRT PJ. I've noticed the same thing being posted here repeatedly, however, regarding the seeming lack of capability on the Ampros to max out the raster without using the width pot. As we've seen posted repeatedly, primarily in NEC threads, adjusting the width pot frequently causes problems often leading to a component failure shortly after. Since tse used to work at the Ampro factory, I'd be very interested in hearing any feedback they can offer on all of this. Hopefully a missing piece or two of the puzzle may come to light.

guys, tse, anyone???
I am still looking for input on whether I should touch that width pot or not.

At this point I have almost 0.75 inch or more of unused tube at right and left sides.

I do not want to beat a dead horse but if anyone has a good experience running an Ampro at full width...I'll appreciate hearing from him....actually otherwise too.

Thanks
Rajiv

rajdude

01-03-06, 02:35 PM

When you get around to it, I have the old green c-element from my G90. It had a slight scratch on it that cast a shadow onto the phosphor when I shined a flashlight through the lens. I'm not sure how much the scratch impacts the projected image, but you're welcomed to it for free if you want to replace your Ampro's clear c-element when you defungus it and change the glycol.

Hi Clarence,
I had the lenses off and noticed that maybe the PJ already has a green C element. Or is the Glycol colored? Anyway, the green tube sure does appear green in color.

Does that mean that I do not need a green C-element ?

OR do these c-elements vary (in color or color-density)

Thanks
Rajiv

Clarence

01-03-06, 02:43 PM

tse

01-03-06, 09:14 PM

guys, tse, anyone???
I am still looking for input on whether I should touch that width pot or not.

At this point I have almost 0.75 inch or more of unused tube at right and left sides.

I do not want to beat a dead horse but if anyone has a good experience running an Ampro at full width...I'll appreciate hearing from him....actually otherwise too.

Thanks
Rajiv

Messing with the pot can be ok or not. It depends on a few things.

First, is the picture alot smaller than the raster? If the raster is alot wider then you need to change the retrace time.

What are you using for a video source and what resolution are you running?

Which HOT board do you have? It's the one far to the right that is bolted to the chassis. Is it like more than a foot long or less?

rajdude

01-04-06, 07:21 AM

AFAIK, there are 4 c-elements:
- clear
- dark green (Marquee)
- lighter green (Sony)
- red

The lighter green is brighter, but the darker green is truer. I replaced my G90's light green with the darker green.

I'm guessing the Ampro has the lighter green (which would be the same as the one I can give to you).

The only CRTs that I can recall with OEM colored glycol is the ECP. You can't use colored glycol with LC because the depth of the glycol chamber isn't the same across the surface of the lense.

Thanks for the info Clarence.
Hey, if I post a pic of the green C element can you tell me if it it the light green or the dark green one?

I just do not want to order a green c-element if I really don't need it.

-Rajiv

rajdude

01-04-06, 07:31 AM

Thanks for responding here tse! I will try to answer all your questions...

First, is the picture alot smaller than the raster? If the raster is alot wider then you need to change the retrace time.

Not too sure about this one, I will check the raster tonight and report back. At this point all I know is that the image is pretty small in width. at 1024x768 I have around an inch of black space on the left and right sides.

That black space increases if I feed it 1920 x 1440.

What are you using for a video source and what resolution are you running?

I am using a HTPC and trying to set it up for two resolutions:
1024 x 768 and
1920 x 1440
Both at 60 Hz refresh (for starters)

I also have a DVDO Ultra, which outputs only 480p. With that rez too there is a lot of black space on the sides. The master image width is maxed out.

Which HOT board do you have? It's the one far to the right that is bolted to the chassis. Is it like more than a foot long or less?

I will check it tonight and post a pic too.

Thanks again!
Rajiv

rajdude

01-04-06, 07:57 AM

On my PJ I do not see any scan lines at almost any resolution (not tried 640x480 yet). I have tried focusing (both optical and EM), setting astigmatism, beam centering…everything but the image is still not sharp.

Also while doing the ‘stig, I get triangular blobs…not perfectly round. If I defocus the beam (electromagnetically) AND adjust the 2-pole and 4 pole CPC magnets….then at one position of the CPC magnets I can get a reasonably round blob. But then …the bright dot is at a corner!!

Does this mean my ‘stig is way off, right? How do I get it right?

No matter which way I twist and turn the CPC magnets the bright dot does not want to come in the center of the blob. It just remains in the corner.

Later, when I focus the beam again I get little triangles with a bright round dot which I can position in the center of the triangle using the CPC magnets.

I do not see any scan lines at 1024 x 768. But the image is reasonable. At 1920 x 1440 the image is very soft. I can’t read any text on the screen.

Please help me!

Here is my setup:
PJ = Ampro 4200G
Source = HTPC
Rez = 1024 x 768 and 1920 x 1440 @ 60 Hz
Image = Nokia test pattern (dots)

Thanks in advance
Rajiv

John Alison

01-04-06, 08:15 AM

Until an expert wades in:

1920x1440 is pushing it. 1024x768 seems sensible.

With respect to focussing- turn the contrast down and look into the lenses. This will get rid of optical issues and enable you to see what the spot size is doing (without being over driven).

rajdude

01-04-06, 08:47 AM

mtmelvin

01-04-06, 09:02 AM

Hey Rajiv-

I have seen posts in the past about triangular "dots," and I believe this is normal for some projectors. I have some across this a few times also. The bright dot should definitely be in the center.

Did you set the electronic (static and dynamic) focus and astig to zero before you started playing with the magnets?

You're using a 4:3 resolution, are you using a 4:3 screen? I also seem to remember that you screen is very small, which might explain why you're not seeing scan lines.

There's no shame in trying a lower resolution until you see scan lines. You might leaern something about your set-up in the process. Try 480i direct from a DVD player (S-video even!?) and if you still don't see scan lines then you know something's wrong.

There's no sense trying to push the projector to the max if it's not adjusted properly, it will just end up looking horribly soft.

Good luck.

-Mark

rajdude

01-04-06, 09:30 AM

Hi Mark, You are up early! it is like 6 AM in Cali, right?

I have seen posts in the past about triangular "dots," and I believe this is normal for some projectors. I have some across this a few times also. The bright dot should definitely be in the center.

So, I guess this PJ will always display triangular dots?

Did you set the electronic (static and dynamic) focus and astig to zero before you started playing with the magnets?

I had set the focus to 50 …isn’t it the same as zero on these PJs? Or do I have to set it to actual zero value. I do not see any code to set astig using the remote on my PJ. Do you know the code for that?

You're using a 4:3 resolution, are you using a 4:3 screen? I also seem to remember that you screen is very small, which might explain why you're not seeing scan lines.

Yes I am using a 4:3 screen because I plan to watch TV & 4:3 format video content on this PJ.
You remember correctly, my screen is only 6 ft wide.

There's no shame in trying a lower resolution until you see scan lines. You might leaern something about your set-up in the process. Try 480i direct from a DVD player (S-video even!?) and if you still don't see scan lines then you know something's wrong.

Good point. I will try it out this way.

There's no sense trying to push the projector to the max if it's not adjusted properly, it will just end up looking horribly soft.

Good luck.

-Mark

Gee, Thanks!
-Rajiv

John Alison

01-04-06, 10:28 AM

If you want to have a bash at 1920x1080p, then that'll be 16:9 by default. i.e. a squeezed raster. No point in using 1440p at 4:3.

If you're using 4:3, then that implies SDTV resolutions. In which case around 720p is a good option.

Have a read through the FAQs on crtprojectors.co.uk

kal

01-04-06, 03:41 PM

You'll always get some form of triangulation on your dots if you only have 2/4 magnets to play with. You need 6-pole like on the Barco Cine 9 or the Sony G90 (and possibly a few others) to really get things perfectly circular.

That being said, I've only ever noticed this triangulation of the circles in the corners of the screen. I'm able to get the center area circular pretty well. (Did this last on my Zenith 1200 with 2/4 pole magnets and this is what I saw).

Kal

bruce can

01-04-06, 03:57 PM

I found that on my 9000 with six pole magnets along with stig control made a huge difference from a stock 9500 in getting rid of triangulation in the dots , I really noticed it on the focus .
I never really fully understood why until recently with all the recent posts on the advantages of six pole magnetics.

Thanks

Bruce

Person99

01-04-06, 05:46 PM

Hell, its an Ampro, be happy it is even working! ;)

OK, you are not twisting the whole CPC assembly are you? You need to turn the knobs to adjust. Secondly, you only look at the center of the screen.

An easy way to check how good your astig is is to use the electronic focus to run between underfocus extreme and overfocus extreme. The dots should get bigger and fuzzier very smoothly with the brighter spot in the center. If the dot is doing a little dance as you run between under and over focus, then astig is bad.

Dave

cmjohnson

01-04-06, 07:51 PM

Get the CPC magnet assemblies with 2, 4, and 6 pole adjustments from VDC, Display Systems Division. NOT the tube rebuilding facility in LA.

www.vdcdisplaysystems.com

They will help.

All the advice given so far is good. Follow it and it will help you.

CJ

stefuel

01-04-06, 08:56 PM

Now that you've gotten all this good advice, I'm going to guess that you have straight HD-10 lenses and you are projecting onto under a 100 inch screen. How am I doing so far. I'll also guess that if you look in through the lenses, you can see scan lines on the face of the tubes. Am I getting hot?

Chip

Clarence

01-04-06, 09:04 PM

HD10 can focus down to 78"w (up to 240"w)... Rajiv's screen is 72"w

Clarence

01-04-06, 09:07 PM

rajdude

01-04-06, 10:17 PM

HI tse,
Here is the image of my HOT board

Please let me know how to proceed. Thanks for your help :)

-Rajiv

PS: did not get time to check the raster today. Will do that tomorrow evening.

stefuel

01-04-06, 10:37 PM

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=46121

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6604752&&#post6604752
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6522391&&#post6522391

Clarence, Don't believe everything you read, especially where AmPro is involved.
Right Pete :p
I had this same problem with a 4000G with low hours. I could look down the lens and see big honkin scanlines at 768P but could not see them on the screen. I then tried 480P, still no luck. Realizing that it was a limitation of my room and screen size, I took it somewhere where I could set the lenses to mid point and just pull it back until it focussed. That turned out to be about 120 inches wide. I then fed it 768P again and bingo, super sharp scanlines. Some day I'll try it again on my small screen with a set of HD-10L's like my 4600HD has.

Chip

mtmelvin

01-04-06, 11:12 PM

[QUOTE=rajdude]Hi Mark, You are up early! it is like 6 AM in Cali, right?

I'm always up this early on workdays... been up since 5 dude! The real concern is that I'm checking AVS before I go to work... shameful :)

I think Chip may be on to something. Your screen is pretty dang small. That's the real reason I'm not using my 4600 right now. It begs for a bigger screen and my room won't accomodate it right now. Next house... :)

Let us know what you find out with this pj.

-Mark

rajdude

01-05-06, 07:35 AM

HD10 can focus down to 78"w (up to 240"w)... Rajiv's screen is 72"w

Hmmmm... Very Interesting info, Clarence.

Strangely, my lenses focus just fine on a 72 " screen. When I say fine I mean the patterns and images are sharp. They just appear a little soft. If there was a 'capability' issue wont I be at the end of the 'travel' of the lenses and still the image wont be in focus....just like any lense arrangement....when you come to the end of the travel it wont focus aymore closer...you have to step back to get the image in focus.

Even on a 64" screen the focus is OK and I am not against the end 'stops'...I mean I still have a little travel left on the lense focus adjustment controls.

Furthermore, Ampro's SIP program accepts 72" screen width as the minimum. It takes into account which lens I have in the PJ and which PJ I have too.

Still the comments from everyone here worry me. Maybe I need some other lenses to get the scan lines?

-Rajiv

rajdude

01-05-06, 07:38 AM

Very good advise from all here. I really appreciate it.THANKS :)

Get the CPC magnet assemblies with 2, 4, and 6 pole adjustments from VDC, Display Systems Division. NOT the tube rebuilding facility in LA.

CJ

CJ, do you know how much these CPC magnet assemblies cost?

rajdude

01-05-06, 07:44 AM

...
I had this same problem with a 4000G with low hours. I could look down the lens and see big honkin scanlines at 768P but could not see them on the screen. I then tried 480P, still no luck. Realizing that it was a limitation of my room and screen size, I took it somewhere where I could set the lenses to mid point and just pull it back until it focussed. That turned out to be about 120 inches wide. I then fed it 768P again and bingo, super sharp scanlines. Some day I'll try it again on my small screen with a set of HD-10L's like my 4600HD has.

Chip

Chip, please tell me this....when you had the 4000G setup for the smaller screen did you get the image in focus?

I am also wondering that these lenses may not be good at near the end of their focus settings. It sure seems like from what you posted...."good scanlines at midpoint."

Is there any workaround since I cannot get such a big screen in my room.

-Rajiv

John Alison

01-05-06, 07:58 AM

Rajiv- for goodness sake look down your tubes with a pair of sunglasses and see if the scan lines are good. Once you're set up and happy there, then move on to the optics.

A problem is easiest dealt with once isolated and properly described.

stefuel

01-05-06, 08:05 AM

rajdude and mtmelvin, not to toot my own horn but I know for a fact that you would both benifit from the installation of HD-10L lenses with a AmPro and a screen of that size. mt, if that's the only thing keeping you from putting up your 4600, I have mine on a 72 in diag, not wide screen with HD-10L's and it's sharp as a tack.
I tried straight 10's, 10-GT17's and 10L's. 10L's gave me by far the best image on a small screen. No matter what HD lens we are talking about, you will find that the best optical focus will be at a point where the lens adjustment is at mid point.
Try as you will to perfect the electronics, you will never get a sharp image until you put on the correct lenses for the application. And that's all I'm going to say about it.

Chip

mtmelvin

01-05-06, 09:33 AM

Chip-
Thank you very much for your advice. My own situation is a little more complicated than that. I have pics in my gallery that help explain it. I never had a problem getting a sharp picture really, but in the ceiling mounted position my 4600 was too far away from my 80"wide screen. I've got an open beam ceiling which limits the mounting position options. I was having to crank the "width" control all the way down just to not overshoot the screen. The PJ was also a little high due to the height of the beam. The next closer beam would be too close. My only other options would be to put up some structure that would allow the pj to be between the beams AND lower at the same time. That sounds very ugly to me and I'm not going to do that. I could also move the screen closer, which I tried and I wasn't happy with that arrangement either.

I don't know if different lenses would help in my situation, and even if they did my pj would still be too high for the screen. It's my fault for putting it up there without doing more calculations. It's actually still up there and I've been meaning to take it down.

When I used it on the floor, it was actually at an ok distance, but as a coffee table it was just too big for my room :)

Oh, and I've got the HVPS Restart thing going on too... another reason it lies dormant for now :)

Thanks again, Chip. Rajiv, I hope you have some success with that pj. Let us know your progress!

-Mark

rajdude

01-05-06, 09:53 AM

Mark,
I remember your room and I think you need "long throw" lenses. If anything like that exist for a CRT PJ. I know they are available for flashlight PJs.

Maybe one of those combinations of numbers mean HD10L or etc etc (from the table posted above by Clarence) mean it is a long throw lense.

-Rajiv

rajdude

01-05-06, 09:57 AM

stefuel

01-05-06, 10:55 AM

Ok, Chip,
but how do I find HD10L lenses (I need just the lenses right?) ?

e-bay? or from someone here who is parting out an Ampro? Cost?

-Rajiv

PS: My wife will go ballistic if she find out that I need more parts ! She already despises the time I have to spend with this PJ to get it up and running!

I can't help the pMs. Your best bet is e-bay. I think there's a set on there now. If you don't get a set from a AmPro, you will have to do a simple mod to them to make them work The four small holes that are used to fasten the lens to the adapter plate need to be counter sunk. You will see what I mean if you remove one of the lense/adapter assemblies and remove one screw. Everyone else uses through hole mounting. Not AmPro.

Chip

stefuel

01-05-06, 11:00 AM

Z-Photo

01-05-06, 11:09 AM

It is all Chips fault.

I think he has the ONLY correctly working Ampro (I had a real hard time typing that).
There must be a rule that only one is allowed to work properly at any given time.

R - to solve your problem I think you will have to break Chip's PJ... :eek:

:D

Pete

Javers

01-05-06, 11:27 AM

Ok, Chip,
but how do I find HD10L lenses (I need just the lenses right?) ?

e-bay? or from someone here who is parting out an Ampro? Cost?

-Rajiv

PS: My wife will go ballistic if she find out that I need more parts ! She already despises the time I have to spend with this PJ to get it up and running!

Don't suppose you ever come to the UK do you? The 9500LC I bought came with HD10L's, I'm aiming for a 90" wide screen (which is the max width MP recommended 10L's could do). I'm wondering if we could both benfit by doing a swap?

Jon

tse

01-05-06, 01:15 PM

http://www.vdcdisplaysystems.com/pdf/Marquee_Ultra_User-Master__V2.pdf

Table of lenses with screen sizes for the Marquee 9500. Shouldn't be too much different than the Ampros.

stefuel

01-05-06, 01:30 PM

stefuel

01-05-06, 08:59 PM

It's not the projectors, it's the people who run (add an i and you get ruin) them ;)

Chip

tse

01-05-06, 09:24 PM

John,
I was trying to set it up for 1920 x 1440 for 1080p.
I calculate that the 4:3 version of 1080p is this resolution, right?

What do others here feed the PJ is they want to display 1080p?
Do they feed straight 1920 x 1080 to the PJ ???

Rajiv

1920 x 1440 is definately pushing it. The 4200 is a middle generation projector and it can't do what the later generation projectors can do. Anything much over about 1000 lines is going to be less than optimal. Your max res will be about 1366 x 1024. That's progressive. If you go interlace then 1920 x 1080i will look fantastic. The 1280 x 720p HDTV mode will look excellent, too. Your projector is more than capable of displaying the best video available (that I can find, anyway).

mtmelvin

01-05-06, 11:03 PM

You should probably look into a 8500LC

Chip

Hmmm... I've got an 8500, non LC. Close enough?

It's on the floor under my 4600HD :)

-Mark

stefuel

01-06-06, 06:36 AM

Hmmm... I've got an 8500, non LC. Close enough?

It's on the floor under my 4600HD :)

-Mark

The 8500 LC has smaller tubes with the same optics as the 9500LC which gives it a much longer throw ratio (would require that it must be much further back). I can't remember exactly but it's something like 1.85 X screen width.

Chip

rajdude

01-06-06, 07:05 AM

Ok Guys,
After reading all your posts I thought I think I should look a little closer after I reduce the rez. Here is what I saw yesterday night.

I DO see scanlines (If I look closely enough) on the screen itself. :D

I get big FAT scan lines at 640 x 480. The scan lines get smaller at 1024 x 768 but they are still there, I just need to look carefully for them. At 1920 x 1440 they dissapear altogether...which is not surprising.

I do have a hard time looking for scanlines on the tubefaces, they just are too bright...if I turn down the contrast I do not see scanlines..Do I need to use sun-glasses? :confused:

Now the colors differ too... I see no scanlines on the red. I see good scanlines on blue and less scanlines on green. :confused:

So bottom line ..I'm a moron for not looking closely enough. :mad: :(

But I'll still say that the pic is soft to my taste. I hope I can make it better. Anyway, I guess I may want to bring down the PJ someday soon and pull it back to make a 120" image and see if the image gets any better/sharper.

BTW, Chip, I could not see that HD10L listing on the 'bay today.

As for the 'stig n centering

..the red and blue beam centering looks Ok. The green is screwed up ...it is shifted to the right side. I checked this using the cross hatch pattern. It is much easier to see beam centeriing this way.

I did not get a chance to check for astigmatism.. it was almost 11 PM and the dog wanted to go out and I was sleepy.

How do you guys do the 'stig and centering on the tube faces? I can’t make out anything on the tube faces...the dots are just too tiny. :eek:

I do not want to burn up the pristine rasters :eek: so I am afraid of projecting dots at 95 contrast. Since I do not have enough experience with setting the ‘stig and centering the beams…I think I will take longer and hence the dots and hatch patterns will be there for longer. Hence the risk of burn-in. If I can do it by looking into the lenses…so much safer. But how??

Thanks everyone!
-Rajiv :D

rajdude

01-06-06, 07:09 AM

1920 x 1440 is definately pushing it. The 4200 is a middle generation projector and it can't do what the later generation projectors can do. Anything much over about 1000 lines is going to be less than optimal. Your max res will be about 1366 x 1024. That's progressive. If you go interlace then 1920 x 1080i will look fantastic. The 1280 x 720p HDTV mode will look excellent, too. Your projector is more than capable of displaying the best video available (that I can find, anyway).

I agree tse,
I think I am just pushing it too hard. Still I am surprised that it does not mind and puts out an image (although a soft image).

Right now resolutions of up-to 1024 x 768 are reasonably sharp.

How can I feed any interlaced image from an HTPC ?

I plan to sort all thhis out this weekend. (well if the wife does not spend too much time out, furniture shopping)

Thanks !
Rajiv

rajdude

01-06-06, 07:12 AM

Hi tse,
did you get a chance to look at my HOT board?

-Rajiv

cmjohnson

01-06-06, 08:59 PM

Scan lines should be VERY easy to resolve on red and green tubes. Blue, too, but with certain
limitations such as your visual limits. We don't focus on blue as well as we do red or particularly green.

Ever noticed that signs lit in blue need to be a lot closer to you than equivalent signs lit in
any other color? Same limitation.

CJ

rajdude

01-08-06, 12:45 AM

Guys,
I really need some expert help especially from the repair/electronics guys here today.

My PJ- an Ampro 4200 is blowing fuses and tripping the circuit breaker! :mad:

Here is the story.
The PJ was working properly but the dynamic focus was not doing anything. I noticed that the one fuse in my PJ, the one on the focus modulator board (or at least that it what I think it is) was blown. I replaced that fuse and the main power supply fuse blew out. I replaced that fuse and then the focus mod board’s fuse blew out. I replaced that one too so the main circuit breaker tripped.

I did not have real replacement fuses so I just tied up a little strand of very fine wire into the main fuse. I guess that my wire’s rating was above 6 amp (the wires are REALLY thin) hence the main ckt breaker tripped.

Anyway, now I have removed the focus mod board fuse and now the PJ is back to “normal”. well....not really normal since I cannot get the edges focused. Here is a pic of the focus mod board with the problematic fuse circled.

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9769/focusboard4ok.jpg

1. Now what do I do?

2. Is the focus modulator board bad? It seems so to me. What can I do about it?

3. Can I try to find what went wrong with it somehow?

I am pretty good with DIY electronics and have basic tools too.

I am puzzled...how come the Static focus control still works. Only the Dynamic Focus controls do not work. :confused:

Please note that I see no error codes. A query into the Ampro’s remote says “System OK”

Any help is highly appreciated.

Thanks !
Rajiv

Allan Jayne

01-08-06, 12:50 AM

Electrolytic capacitors are very likely components to develop short circuits.

Did you notice any smoking or odors, or any discoloration on either side of the board?

Video hints:
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/video.htm

andy2000

01-08-06, 01:00 AM

rajdude

01-08-06, 01:06 AM

Hello Allan,
Nope, I do not smell anything. But a long time back ( when I just bought this PJ) it was not giving me any image, I did not know that I need to bring up the test/help patterns and then when I would go back to channel 1 ...the image will show up.

Anyway at that time (out of frustration) I switched on and off the pj numerous times in close succession.... I did get a burning smell that day, but never after that. I guess it was the fuse blowing???

Nashua, Eh? I lived in Nashua for 2-3 years. We moved out last year. Nice place! :D I was right off exit one... on the left side... in the townhouses of Meadowview circle.

Me and my family miss it dearly. We left quite a few friends behind.

Thanks
-Rajiv

rajdude

01-08-06, 01:10 AM

Never EVER replace a fuse with anything other than the correct fuse. Using wire, foil, or a bigger fuse can cause massive damage to the electronics, not to mention the fire hazard. I see minor problems turned into major problems all the time when people bypass fuses.

Yes, I know this 'golden rule'. Thus I used a very very thin strand of wire, which gave up the ghost the first time. The second time I doubled up that wire and the ckt breaker tripped.

I SWEAR those two tiny wires CANNOT carry 20 amps through them! The circuit breaker which tripped was rated at 20 Amps.

But I have seen very sensitive breakers too.

But thanks for the reminder!

I'll go buy the fuses tomorrow.... today by the time I went to radio-shack...it was 9 PM....and they were closed :(

-Rajiv

Maxxarcade

01-08-06, 02:41 AM

Check the bridge rectifier just to the left of the fuse. Looks like that fuse would go to the input side of that rectifier.

If it's not that, I'd look at the larger transistors on the big heatsink.

Capacitors can short when they go bad, but much more commonly they dry out and go "open"

I've never worked on an Ampro, but looking at the board in the picture I'm giving my best advice. If you have a multimeter with a diode test, you can check that rectifier and the transistors for shorts very easily. If you need to know how to do that, let me know.

stefuel

01-08-06, 08:33 AM

jtnfoley

01-08-06, 09:33 AM

Maxxarcade

01-08-06, 10:40 AM

I've seen LOTS of capacitors blow up... sometimes the whole top blows off, sometimes it splits open, a lot of the time it just bulges and leaks.

Lots of computer motherboards had defective capacitors a few years ago. From what I heard, someone had stolen the formula for some capacitor electrolyte, got it wrong, made defective electrolyte, and sold it to a few manufacturers. The result was capacitors that produced hydrogen gas upon heating up. Some lasted longer than others.

Just a couple days ago I replaced 15 capacitors on the motherboard for one of our Megatouch countertop games. Every one of the games that has the motherboard made by Unicorn Computer had the same bad caps.

rajdude

01-08-06, 12:04 PM

cmjohnson

01-08-06, 12:06 PM

rajdude

01-08-06, 12:19 PM

After you get new fuses, put the board back in and try singling out one focus coil at a time. Also, is this projector hung or on a table? If it's on the ceiling, did you bench test it first? It would not be the first time a loose screw found it's way to the underside (now the top) of a mother board and raised havock. It sounds to me that you have a dead short very close to power entry. I would pull the SMPS and inspect it and the area it came from for signs of heat. Because the wires leading from the focus mod connector on the mother board and focus board itself are so small, I would suspect that they would be dis-colored if the dead short short was in the focus circuit. If you can't find anything, the next step, if it were me, would be to strip it down to the motherboard and pull it right out for inspection. I can strip that motherboard out in a hour. Just tipping the projector is no garrantee that there's nothing there as a small star washer or the like can become fused to the board given enough amps.

Chip

Hi Chip,
Thanks for the response. I think you got my situation wrong ....well just a little teeny weeny bit :)

Pl let me clarify...
The PJ is working absolutely fine. There is nothing wrong with the SMPS. Only the focus in the corners of the image is off and the focus board's fuse keeps blowing.
Hence there is surely something wrong with ONLY the focus board.

But you mention checking the focus coil. Do these things short out? How do I check them?

the wires leading from the focus mod connector on the mother board and focus board itself are NOT discolored...but I do not think they will get discolored anyway since there is a fuse in the circuit. That will blow first.

BTW, the PJ is on the ceiling now. But it was working the same way on the table.

-Rajiv

dav99

01-08-06, 12:42 PM

It looks like you could power the board with an external power supply,use the current limiting, you will find the short quickly this way.

matrix

01-08-06, 01:03 PM

I have a feeling the AVS CRT forum is about to give up it's perfect record of no CRT related DEATHS. :rolleyes:

dav99

01-08-06, 01:10 PM

"I have a feeling the AVS CRT forum is about to give up it's perfect record of no CRT related DEATHS"

perfect record ? How would we know, who would post it, there are some that do not post any more! we have not heard from raster in a while!

matrix

01-08-06, 01:12 PM

Curt will know! :D

andy2000

01-08-06, 01:17 PM

Something on that board is drawing a LOT more current than it's supposed to. It's most likely caused by one or more shorted diodes, or power transistors. After bypassing the fuse, there may be a lot of blown parts on the board. If you're not familiar with component level repair, you'll have to replace the whole board, or send it to someone who can repair it. The first thing I would check is that black square device near the fuse.

tse

01-08-06, 01:29 PM

Maxxarcade and andy2000 are leading you down the right path. The fuse on the foc mod bd is for the power supply on the daughter bd. Most likely it's a croaker. Check the parts on the heatsinks for shorts. If the mosfet is bad probably the PWM chip is gone, too.

Best to take the board out off the pj to check stuff. This bd uses 115VAC (or 220V) from the wall socket so UNPLUG the projector and wait a while before you start handling the bd.

rajdude

01-09-06, 08:01 AM

rajdude

01-09-06, 08:04 AM

If you don't have the right fuses, DON'T SUBSTITUTE. Fuses are critical safety devices and
not just for YOUR safety, but to keep a board fault from becoming WORSE.

That's a pretty dumb thing to do, if you'll pardon my honesty.

Your impatience probably made the problem much worse.

What's the part number on the focus board? I may have a good spare I can provide for you.

CJ

You are right CJ, it is pretty dumb on my part. The only saving grace was that I had enough brains to use the thinnest strand of wire I could find. That probably saved the rest of the PJ.

I do not think (at this point) that my actions made the problems worse (good luck or my tiny wire...I do not know !)

Although I can go down to component level , I think it may be faster to just get a replacement board. I will let you know the part number tonight.

-Rajiv

rajdude

01-09-06, 08:31 AM

Guys,
I am (kinda) overjoyed! I say "kind-of" because I am not 100% sure I got it right, so I’ll explain.

YAHOO ! I think I got the astig and beam centering done correctly.

On friday night I was up until 4 AM ! ...doing all these things. I think I spent around an hr doing the astig and beam centering on the blue. After I got the hang of it & I was able to do the green in maybe 20 minutes and then the red in just 10 minutes!

Before that night, (Frankly) I was about to give up on this whole astig and beam centering thing. But once I spent some "quality time" with the PJ I got it right!

This PJ was just not set up right at all! I found out that I had the do the focus magnet sliding fore and aft procedure first. Just that gave me a much sharper picture. I found out that (as per the manual) these magnets do not really have to be positioned all the way against the deflection yoke. I am getting best focus around 4-5 mm back. But I guess that the actual position does not matter, right?

Ok, now the reason why I think that maybe it can be done better or maybe I really did not get it right is because the focus is sharp only in the center of the screen. The corners are still out of focus. Of course I can slide the magnets to get the corners in focus ...but I think the dynamic focus circuits are supposed to do that.

Now if you read my other thread, my EM focus board is blown....so I guess I need that board working to get everything in focus.

I am also perplexed why my final settings are very different from the paint blobs done at the factory??.

OH yes, I almost forgot to say this...I do see scan lines now at 1024 x 768. Haven't tried more yet.

Thanks to everyone who has help me through this. Now I need to tackle the focus board issue...
-Rajiv

Clarence

01-09-06, 08:46 AM

Congrats.

Let me know the ##### on the focus bd.

rajdude

01-09-06, 08:49 AM

Convergence and heat issues
I also did a full convergence on my Ampro 4200 (I was up till 4AM!! :eek: ) but now I have a couple of issues with it. First...all that heat and then the convergence drifts (of course). :mad:

The convergence board's heatsink gets too hot. It is too hot to touch! :( I measured it at 130 to 140 degrees using my IR thermometer. Too bad that the heatsink has no fins that can use natural convection.

I know that means my convergence circuits are working too hard but I have dialed in the static convergence as good as I can. :confused: Toggling the registration on/off (55 CODE) does not move the center of the image at all. I hear that is a good test of static convergence.

Do other people's boards also get so hot? :confused:

These ICs/Transistors will get cooked in not time. I am putting a couple of fans on them for the time being.

Any ideas why this board is running so hot & what can be done about it?

-Rajiv

tse

01-09-06, 08:51 AM

Thanks guys, I will look into it tonight.

tse, I am very confused about how this board works but I think you can answer this question...

How come the static focus control on this Ampro 4200 works EVEN when the EM focus board is not working?

Only the dynamic focus is not working.

-Rajiv

The focus magnet has two windings. One is high inductance so it takes a small current to do it's thing. It does the static focus (some also do the top and bottom). There is a small amplifier (for each color) to do this job. The other winding is low inductance so it doesn't take too much voltage to modulate the left and right sides. It does take alot of current so this is a much more powerful set of amplifiers. So, the dynamic section of your board is dead but the static section is still working.

rajdude

01-09-06, 09:17 AM

OK Great!
I get it, that means some parts of that EM focus board are still working. It is not totally dead. Strangely, the static section of my board does not look like it also does the top ans bottom, since the top/bottom does not get any better if I use the dynamic focus adjustment.

Anyway, I am trying to find the schematic for this board. I have the 4300's service manual but I cannot locate this particular board. It does have a file "x300SM 11[1].21 Magnetic Focus Modulator Board (81170AX3).tif" but that does not looks like my board.

Does anyone have the exact schematic?

-Rajiv

rajdude

01-09-06, 09:29 AM

Bump
(Reminder) question to tse.

kal

01-09-06, 10:30 AM

I think I spent around an hr doing the astig and beam centering on the blue. After I got the hang of it & I was able to do the green in maybe 20 minutes and then the red in just 10 minutes! Good god... you *started* with blue? You're a glutton for punishment! :) Blue's impossible to see... I always go from easiest to hardest: Green -> red -> blue.

Ok, now the reason why I think that maybe it can be done better or maybe I really did not get it right is because the focus is sharp only in the center of the screen. The corners are still out of focus. Of course I can slide the magnets to get the corners in focus ...but I think the dynamic focus circuits are supposed to do that.Make sure that your optical focus and sheimplug is perfect across the screen first. I use the grain phosphor to check this as you cannot use the actual test pattern as you won't know if the problem's the optics or the electronic focus.

Kal

tse

01-09-06, 01:42 PM

tse

01-09-06, 02:07 PM

The focus magnet has two windings. One is high inductance so it takes a small current to do it's thing. It does the static focus (some also do the top and bottom). There is a small amplifier (for each color) to do this job. The other winding is low inductance so it doesn't take too much voltage to modulate the left and right sides. It does take alot of current so this is a much more powerful set of amplifiers. So, the dynamic section of your board is dead but the static section is still working.

Wait a minute...

This is valid for the 3600/4300/4600 focus mod board.

The 2300/4200 focus mag has only one winding to do all three functions. Static, top and bottom, and left and right. There is also only one amp per color. It gets +40V from the daughter bd/power supply and it also gets -20V from the SMPS. Evidently the amp can still partially work with only -20V! Enough to do some static adjustment.

tse

01-09-06, 02:09 PM

tse

01-09-06, 08:03 PM

The 80970 schematic w/pwr supply.

rajdude

01-09-06, 10:41 PM

rajdude

01-09-06, 10:46 PM

Congrats.

Let me know the ##### on the focus bd.

HI Clarence,

The Focus Modulator board has this printed on the board :

65331 Rev X1

It also has a daughter board mounted on it. That board has these numbers on it:

65418 Rev X

Please check if you have this one.

-Rajiv

rajdude

01-09-06, 10:47 PM

If you don't have the right fuses, DON'T SUBSTITUTE. Fuses are critical safety devices and
not just for YOUR safety, but to keep a board fault from becoming WORSE.

That's a pretty dumb thing to do, if you'll pardon my honesty.

Your impatience probably made the problem much worse.

What's the part number on the focus board? I may have a good spare I can provide for you.

CJ

Hi CJ,
The Focus Modulator board has this printed on the board :

65331 Rev X1

It also has a daughter board mounted on it. That board has these numbers on it:

65418 Rev X

Please check if you have this board.

-Rajiv

tse

01-09-06, 10:52 PM

Thanks tse but it looks like my board is different.

The Focus Modulator board has this printed on the board :

65331 Rev X1

It also has a daughter board mounted on it. That board has these numbers on it:

65418 Rev X

Do you have the schematic of this one?

-Rajiv

The 65XXX numbers refer to the circuit board number, has nothing to do with the assy part number. I can tell from the picture that you posted that your assy is most likely 80970. Look at the stickers that are stuck on the board.

rajdude

01-09-06, 10:54 PM

40 views and no replies?

Please help if you have a solution.

-RM

andy2000

01-10-06, 12:36 AM

I can't talk about your projector specifically, but 140 degrees (I assume that F)
isn't that outrageous. It's common for heat sinks to run too hot to touch. I don't
like it either and it does shorten component life, but it's not as bad as you think.
A fan is a good idea if you want to make things more reliable.

Curt Palme

01-10-06, 12:38 AM

If one or more of your parameters are below 25 or above 75, something is wrong. Things like Pin and Key will interact, so if you're at 90 on one and 10 on the other in the same quadrant, reset both to 50 and start over.

That happens all the time. If the convergence jumnpers on the yokes are wrong, you'll need more convergence control than normal to get them in line.

Start from a cold start and see if one or two chips heat up more than the others. You might have a bad chip. Also check the +/- voltages coming into the convergence board. Variances between the two due to a bad LVPS can also cause overheating.

Does the heat sink cool down with the registration off? It should not run even lukewarm with the reggie turned off.

RoBro

01-10-06, 12:49 AM

If its centigrade your electronics will not last very long...
Roland

rajdude

01-10-06, 07:43 AM

The 65XXX numbers refer to the circuit board number, has nothing to do with the assy part number. I can tell from the picture that you posted that your assy is most likely 80970. Look at the stickers that are stuck on the board.

Ya, I thought you would say that when I was posting that number.

I looked at the schematic you gave me, it does look like the one I need. THANKS ! :D

I will also look at the white stickers, but there are like 5 of them...I guess something will say 80970 on it.

Thanks again, tse, I really appreciate your help.
-Rajiv

rajdude

01-10-06, 07:45 AM

Does someone have the board layout diagram of this focus board too? Makes it easier to trouleshoot.

Frankly I'd rather get a replacement board if possible. Saves me the precious little time I have with my family in the evenings. :(

-Rajiv

rajdude

01-10-06, 07:53 AM

If one or more of your parameters are below 25 or above 75, something is wrong. Things like Pin and Key will interact, so if you're at 90 on one and 10 on the other in the same quadrant, reset both to 50 and start over.

Ya some parameters have to be beyond this range to get the image converged properly. Especially the keystone. That one is maxed out for sure. The PJ is mounted on the ceiling and it is tilted downwards a little bit. Hence I have to use a lot of Keystone.

But I will check these things again.

That happens all the time. If the convergence jumnpers on the yokes are wrong, you'll need more convergence control than normal to get them in line.

1. Convergence Jumpers, Eh? What are those?
2. Where can I find them.
3. How to verify if they are correctly set?

Start from a cold start and see if one or two chips heat up more than the others. You might have a bad chip. Also check the +/- voltages coming into the convergence board. Variances between the two due to a bad LVPS can also cause overheating.

OK will check these things. Thanks ! :)

Does the heat sink cool down with the registration off? It should not run even lukewarm with the reggie turned off.

Yes it does, Ya it is cold with the registration off.

rajdude

01-10-06, 07:54 AM

If its centigrade your electronics will not last very long...
Roland

RoBro,
These numbers are in F ...not C. But still I get a little worried. I think they should not be significantly above 100 F.

-Rajiv

rajdude

01-10-06, 08:06 AM

It would be best to verify how much raster is not being used before messing with the sub-width pot. Turn up the brightness and/or the G-2 on one color and see if the video is covering almost all of the raster. If there is alot of raster that is not being used it would best to change your video so that there is not so much blanking time.

tse,
I checked the raster and the image. The video image is NOT covering almost all of the raster. It has a lot of space on the sides. I have maxed out the width.

How do I do this...

"change your video so that there is not so much blanking time."

...by using the width Pot or something else in the HTPC?

I also see some really weird things here. My PJ's raster width is dependent on what rez I am feeding it.

1. At 640 x 480 the raster is almost fully maximized (maybe 3-4 mm from the edges). The image is around 1/4 inch inside the raster.

2. At 1024 x 768, the raster is around 1/4 inch away from the edge. The image is around 1/2 inch inside the raster.

3. at higher rez (like 1920 x 760), the raster shrinks even more and the image is around an inch away from the tube edges.

Is it normal for the raster to shrink as the rez goes up?

-Rajiv

tse

01-10-06, 08:35 AM

Ya some parameters have to be beyond this range to get the image converged properly. Especially the keystone. That one is maxed out for sure. The PJ is mounted on the ceiling and it is tilted downwards a little bit. Hence I have to use a lot of Keystone.

The east west keystone is done with the HOT bd and doesn't contribute to registation amp heating.

rajdude

01-10-06, 09:21 AM

The east west keystone is done with the HOT bd and doesn't contribute to registation amp heating.

Thanks for this info, tse. Did you get a chance to look at my post about the raster and image width. HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6887869&&#post6887869) is the Link (click on Here)

I answered your questions (see two posts above)

Thanks
Rajiv

rajdude

01-10-06, 09:27 AM

Hi Clarence,
I see you merged my three threads.

Although...I do understand that why you did it, I had to spawn new threads because I was not getting any good responses in the past. Now I was getting somewhere.

I have three seperate issues and they are not co-related.

1. Image width
2. Focus Board
3. Overheating Convergence board.

For responders to my threads it was easier to post to seperate threads on totally seperate topics. + I used to get more eye balls on the threads.

Now...after the merge... I am afraid that some of my issues will get lost & I'll have to keep reminding people ( like I just did above)

-Rajiv

tse

01-10-06, 01:31 PM

tse,
I checked the raster and the image. The video image is NOT covering almost all of the raster. It has a lot of space on the sides. I have maxed out the width.

How do I do this...

"change your video so that there is not so much blanking time."

...by using the width Pot or something else in the HTPC?

I also see some really weird things here. My PJ's raster width is dependent on what rez I am feeding it.

1. At 640 x 480 the raster is almost fully maximized (maybe 3-4 mm from the edges). The image is around 1/4 inch inside the raster.

2. At 1024 x 768, the raster is around 1/4 inch away from the edge. The image is around 1/2 inch inside the raster.

3. at higher rez (like 1920 x 760), the raster shrinks even more and the image is around an inch away from the tube edges.

Is it normal for the raster to shrink as the rez goes up?

-Rajiv

It's normal for the raster to get somewhat smaller as you go up in frequency (with this Ampro HOT bd). I don't know how you set your HTPC for less blanking time. Ideal situation is the picture almost completely covers the raster. Your picture would be alot larger then, right? You would be alot better off if you could change the video rather than just increasing the width. Increased width means the HOT bd has to work harder.

rajdude

01-10-06, 02:18 PM

Ok thanks again tse.

But first ...that "width pot" on the HOT board controls the raster width or the image width?

Do you know of any other source (other than HTPCs) which has the ability to change blanking time? I do not know if DVD players can do that.

-Rajiv

tse

01-10-06, 02:46 PM

rajdude

01-10-06, 03:02 PM

The width pot controls both. Make raster bigger, make picture bigger.

I don't know of any DVD players that you can change the video parameters on. If you can control them with a HTPC then it would be possible to have the blanking times too long.

Generally you want the vertical blanking to be about 3-5% of the field time (3% of 1/refresh rate).

The horizontal blanking time should be about 20-25% of the line time.

Any more than that and there will be too much raster not being used.

Oh,
then I guess I do not need to mess around with the width pot. (since my raster is already maximised)

Meanwhile I did some research, looks like an application - PowerStrip may be able to accomplish what I need.

gotta check that out tonight.

Thanks for all your help. :) I really appreciate it.

-Rajiv

rajdude

01-11-06, 07:46 AM

Everyone,
(I hope I get somebody to respond. I have been sending e-mails to Curt, CJ and Clarence, but :( no response from any of them) I'm starting to wonder if I said something wrong :o )

I need a replacement EM Focus Modulator board for this Ampro 4200. It has this printed on the board :

65331 Rev X1

It also has a daughter board mounted on it. That board has these numbers on it:

65418 Rev X

Does someone have this board? OR can Curt repair my board?

I really do not have enough time on my hand to troubleshoot it.

Thanks,
-Rajiv

Clarence

01-11-06, 08:14 AM

Can you post a picture of the focus board? I haven't come across one yet.

Does anyone know if the 3400 or 3600 has a focus board?

rajdude

01-11-06, 08:24 AM

Yes Clarence, the 3600 has a EM focus board.

Here is a pic of the board
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/1944/focusboard4ok1cr.jpg

rajdude

01-11-06, 08:26 AM

I am also looking for a heatsink which looks exactly like the one in the picture above. A simple solution would be to get a dead EM focus board from an Ampro PJ.

Anyone has a dead EM focus board ??

tse

01-11-06, 08:34 AM

Can you post a picture of the focus board? I haven't come across one yet.

Does anyone know if the 3400 or 3600 has a focus board?

The 34, 36, 4600 has a focus mod board but it is a different assy. The 23 and 4200 focus bd is unique in that it has a built in power supply for the dynamic amplifiers.

Clarence

01-11-06, 08:43 AM

Well, I've got 3 of those 3400/3600 focus boards, but it doesn't sound like that'll do you much good in a 4200.

rajdude

01-11-06, 08:53 AM

Where is Curt when you need him!

I hope he has the board

CURT ? CURT????

Where are you ? I've been trying to get in touch with you for 2 days now.

Of course he must be sleeping right now ;) ....I'll wait.

rajdude

01-12-06, 10:50 AM

The focus magnet has two windings. One is high inductance so it takes a small current to do it's thing. It does the static focus (some also do the top and bottom). There is a small amplifier (for each color) to do this job. The other winding is low inductance so it doesn't take too much voltage to modulate the left and right sides. It does take alot of current so this is a much more powerful set of amplifiers. So, the dynamic section of your board is dead but the static section is still working.

Hi tse,
I cannot locate two sections (static and dynamic) of this board on the schematic you posted.

I can see ICs (AD633) which take the "H Bow" & "V Bow" signal input (and also something labeled R,G and B) and are driving the LM675 Power amps for each of R, G & B magnets. But that's about all.

Are these amps (LM675) for the dynamic or the static focus?

Where are the other amps?

Also the daughter board sends output to J1 and are labelled:

+IM
+40 V
-IM

What is the + & - IM going to?

tse

01-12-06, 11:35 AM

Hi tse,
I cannot locate two sections (static and dynamic) of this board on the schematic you posted.

This board drives a focus magnet with only one winding. An earlier post I said something about two windings but that is for the 36, 43, 4600 projectors. My mistake.

I can see ICs (AD633) which take the "H Bow" & "V Bow" signal input (and also something labeled R,G and B) and are driving the LM675 Power amps for each of R, G & B magnets. But that's about all.

The R, G, and B are the static signals.

Are these amps (LM675) for the dynamic or the static focus?

The LM675s do both. Static and dynamic.

Where are the other amps?

Also the daughter board sends output to J1 and are labelled:

+IM
+40 V
-IM

What is the + & - IM going to?

I'll have to check the schematic. Don't remember off the top of my head. The problem with your board appears to be the power supply (daughter bd).

rajdude

01-12-06, 12:06 PM

This board drives a focus magnet with only one winding. An earlier post I said something about two windings but that is for the 36, 43, 4600 projectors. My mistake.

OK, but does that make this type of focus magnet less accurate than those who have two windings?

The R, G, and B are the static signals.

OK, what about the "H Bow" & "V Bow" signal input to the ICs (AD633). Is that Dynamic? Why are they labelled "Bow" instead of "Dyn" or something similar.

I'll have to check the schematic. Don't remember off the top of my head. The problem with your board appears to be the power supply (daughter bd).

As I troubleshoot it, the first thing I am doing is try to understand what this daughter board does. I hear from you that it is a power supply....sounds simple enough and I can see it generates + 40 volts for the LM 675s, but don't understand where the + & - IM are going to. Let me know when you find out what those + & - IM connections are feeding and what is their use?

Thanks again & thanks for being patient with all my (numerous) questions!

-Rajiv

rajdude

01-13-06, 07:58 AM

A few updates

Focus Board issues:

I checked the Focus board's numbers, yes the circuit is the same as the schematic tse posted - 880970. Thanks tse!

Image Width Issues:

I also checked Powerstrip, that is able to increase the width of the image on the raster. Also it can center it without using the PJ's phase conrol. Cool!

Convergence Board Issues:

With the registration off, the convergence amp is absolutely cool to touch. With reg on, all the ICs are at the same temp.

I have another question:

Can a Convergence amp board from a 3600 fit into a 4200?

They look very similar to each other, just a couple of capacitors are different.

From 3600: (I have the schematic)
Board : 65333-01 Rev A
Ckt : 81010-01

From 4200: (Anyone has a schematic for this one?)
Board : 65248 RevA
Ckt : 880949

Thanks
Rajiv

tse

01-13-06, 08:21 AM

OK, but does that make this type of focus magnet less accurate than those who have two windings?

Nope. Perhaps a little less efficient. It takes a little more power to do the static focus this way.

OK, what about the "H Bow" & "V Bow" signal input to the ICs (AD633). Is that Dynamic? Why are they labelled "Bow" instead of "Dyn" or something similar.

The signals have a "bow" shape, actually a parabola. One is at the horizontal frequency the other vertical.

As I troubleshoot it, the first thing I am doing is try to understand what this daughter board does. I hear from you that it is a power supply....sounds simple enough and I can see it generates + 40 volts for the LM 675s, but don't understand where the + & - IM are going to. Let me know when you find out what those + & - IM connections are feeding and what is their use?

Thanks again & thanks for being patient with all my (numerous) questions!

-Rajiv

The + & -IN nodes are the power input. The AC power from the wall socket is rectified (doubled for 115VAC) and filtered to 300VDC. That 300VDC is connected across the -IN and +IN.

rajdude

01-13-06, 08:41 AM

Thanks again tse!

Do you also have the schematic for this circuit: 80949
It is a registration amp board.

-Rajiv

rajdude

01-13-06, 12:08 PM

Folks ,
does anyone have the schematic for this Ampro circuit: 80949
It is a registration/convergence amp board.

-RM

Ray Cendroski

01-13-06, 01:00 PM

Outside of people with access to Ampro factory literature like Elite Video (or maybe tse), I don't think you'll find a schematic for a board particular to the 4200. Ampro never produced a repair/service type manual for the 4200 like they did for the 2000/4000 and 4300/4600 models.

Sometimes, rather than troubleshoot something like a small power supply circuit, I'll just replace all the usual suspect parts like capacitors and semi-conductors. The Ampro parts are usually pretty common and cheap, and it's quicker.

Ray

rajdude

01-13-06, 02:57 PM

rajdude

01-14-06, 11:16 PM

Bump as a reminder to tse.

I hope he has the schematic.

-Rajiv

tse

01-15-06, 12:10 AM

Buddy, I'm sorry. This one turned up a blank. When Ampro went bankrupt alot of stuff got thrown in the dumpster before someone that gave a crap showed up on their own time to try to save stuff. You wouldn't believe it. Everyones personal records were thrown in a pile on the floor and alot of engineering stuff was lost. I looked through all the old drawings and couldn't find anything on the 4200 convergence amplifier. I hope there is someone out there that has copies of it.

rajdude

01-15-06, 12:27 AM

rajdude

01-15-06, 12:50 AM

Thanks for looking tse, if you got a minute, please look into my above question. For reference, here are the two schematics I am looking at...

The new Board:
(from x600)
http://www.neilmehra.com/rajiv/RegistrationAmplifierModule(81010A).jpg

The old board (from 4200) taken from the 2000 service manual
http://www.neilmehra.com/rajiv/2000_reg_amp_board.jpg

That manual can be found here:
http://www.neilmehra.com/rajiv/Ampro_2000_Service_Manual.pdf

-Rajiv

Dion^Swamp

01-16-06, 05:37 AM

If you need better scans of the service manual let me know the page numbers so I can put them up on my Ampro page, the pdf you linked to is possibly the worst quality scan I have ever seen.

rajdude

01-16-06, 11:23 AM

If you need better scans of the service manual let me know the page numbers so I can put them up on my Ampro page, the pdf you linked to is possibly the worst quality scan I have ever seen.

HA HA, you are right, I got these PDFs in a CD which came with the PJ.
Right now, I dont need any scans, but thanks!

BTW, did you get the lighter or the darker shade of the green C element for your 4200?

Also ever thought of swapping parts with newer Ampros (for better performance)?

I am thinking of swapping the convergence board with a x600's board. Looks pretty much the same but I am still waiting for tse to verify (just to be 100% sure.) I hope I do not blow up the PJ if I test-swap the boards.

tse, what is the worse that can happen? The registration won't work right...right?? or can I also damage some other circuits?

-Rajiv

stefuel

01-16-06, 11:36 AM

[QUOTE=rajdude]HA HA, you are right, I got these PDFs in a CD which came with the PJ.
Right now, I dont need any scans, but thanks!

BTW, did you get the lighter or the darker shade of the green C element for your 4200?

Also ever thought of swapping parts with newer Ampros (for better performance)?

I am thinking of swapping the convergence board with a x600's board. Looks pretty much the same but I am still waiting for tse to verify (just to be 100% sure.) I hope I do not blow up the PJ if I test-swap the boards.

tse, what is the worse that can happen? The registration won't work right...right?? or can I also damage some other circuits?

-Rajiv[/QUOTE

While attempting board transfusions, you may get board incompatability error messages. That used to happen between even early and late model 2000/4000 projectors. I think the CPU looks for compatable hardware while it's booting up. It may not recognize the board and send the error message.

Chip

rajdude

01-16-06, 12:24 PM

While attempting board transfusions, you may get board incompatability error messages. That used to happen between even early and late model 2000/4000 projectors. I think the CPU looks for compatable hardware while it's booting up. It may not recognize the board and send the error message.

Chip

You are right, Chip, but from what I can see in the schematic, this board does not have any "brains" which will enable the CPU to recognise that it is not the correct one.

All it has is a bunch of simple Power-Amps and a power supply section which is feeding them.

For the CPU to "know" if it is the right board or not, don't you think it should have some digital circuits on it? This board has none.

-Rajiv

madpoet

01-16-06, 01:16 PM

rajdude

01-16-06, 01:38 PM

Hey raj, I've followed this thread with some interest. If you don't mind me asking since I didn't see it in the thread, what are your chasis hours? I just picked up a fairly hard-used 4300 so I'm sure I will be going through a lot of what you've had to endure ;)

Well the CPU was glitched and the battery was dead...then when you eventually replace the battery...the hrs get all garbled up. Hence I really do not know.

But the tubes are a perfect 10 across all three, (the main reason I bought it) .......from the looks of it this PJ was not used much. There is no dust anywhere inside.... OR maybe it was not working properly so no-one used it....OR maybe someone replaced the tubes before selling it. One thing is for sure...the blue tube has been replaced. That means it WAS used....right? :eek: :o :confused: :confused:

...i really do not know the history of this PJ. It is all garbled up.

Well, going back to your question....I do not think that your PJ will give you such a hard time as well. It all just "depends".

Just DO NOT switch it on and off rapidly...that (apparantly) caused my focus board to blow off.

Other than that it is not too bad (until now). The bottom line is ...it still works...the astig is done, but convergence amp board overheats (bad heatsink design + I am probably using too much adjustments) and the focus board's gone.

I am nearing the end of my tether here! HA HA! :mad: :mad:

-Rajiv

Dion^Swamp

01-16-06, 03:58 PM

BTW, did you get the lighter or the darker shade of the green C element for your 4200?

The slightly darker, but also burnt-to-a-crisp kind:
http://dion.swamp.dk/pics/ht/ampro4200g/burnt-c-element/

I have thought about upgrading the HVPS to a non-flaky one, I have one HVPS that gave up the ghost as I was modding in more G2 capacitance (possibly just a bad connection) and one that works, but I'll never be quite happy with the HVPS unless it's either a better model or I have a spare.

rajdude

01-16-06, 06:03 PM

The slightly darker, but also burnt-to-a-crisp kind:
http://dion.swamp.dk/pics/ht/ampro4200g/burnt-c-element/

I have thought about upgrading the HVPS to a non-flaky one, I have one HVPS that gave up the ghost as I was modding in more G2 capacitance (possibly just a bad connection) and one that works, but I'll never be quite happy with the HVPS unless it's either a better model or I have a spare.

Actually what I meant was to ask you which "replacement C-element" did you get.

I have seen those pictures earlier and I know that you got those fried c-elements with your PJ originally. You say on your website:
"Got it: Green C-element, from Graham."

so I do not know if you are aware that two shades of green C-elements exist. Clarence told me that the darker green is the more accurate one. Thus I wanted to know if you got the darker or the lighter green element.

-Rajiv

rajdude

01-16-06, 06:09 PM

Hi tse,
did you get a chance to check out my board swapping issue...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6923625&&#post6923625

-Rajiv

mtmelvin

01-16-06, 07:47 PM

Well the CPU was glitched and the battery was dead...then when you eventually replace the battery... :eek: :o :confused: :confused: DO NOT switch it on and off rapidly...that (apparantly) caused my focus board to blow off.

it is not too bad (until now). ...it still works...the astig is done, but convergence amp board overheats (bad heatsink design + I am probably using too much adjustments) and the focus board's gone.

I am nearing the end of my tether here! HA HA! :mad: :mad:

-Rajiv

Oh Rajiv... hurry up and part the damn thing out! I'll take the tubes and the HVPS :)

-Mark

tse

01-16-06, 07:48 PM

I studied the convergence amp board of my 4200, it looks very similar to the convergence amp board on the 2000. I have the convergence amp' schematic for the 2000.

I am thinking of replacing my 4200's board with a 3600's.

There are two differences I see between them (the 4200's and the 3600's). Here is what on the newer board:-

(1.) The power-supply section is a little different, but it still seems to supply +- 25 volts to the LM675s.

But, I do not understand what that circuit is doing though, it seems to take +- 25 V and output something labeled +-25 SW …. And that is going to the power supply inputs of the Op-amps (LM675)

That circuit does two things. First it switches power on and off to the amplifiers. 55 code. Second it's a current limit for the LVPS. It only allows a certain maximum amount of power draw. If an overload happens for more than half a minute or so the thermostat will disconnect power from the amps. After things cool down it will allow power to return.

(2.) The other difference is that the convergence signal goes to the inverting input of the Op-amp (LM657). This means that the output will be inverted, right? But later the connectors going to the Yokes are reversed. I understand that this effectively reverses the signals.....hence making the signals the same as that coming out of the older board.

I think you are right.

Anyway the bottom line is …can I swap the boards without any problem??

Ok, here's where there may be a problem. Are the registration coils for the two models the same inductance? They might be but I don't remember. If they are different the compensation for the amps will be wrong and the output will be distorted. I don't think it will blow-up but it might not work right.

Dion^Swamp

01-17-06, 03:42 AM

Actually what I meant was to ask you which "replacement C-element" did you get.

Ah, right, well the old element was the darker kind, the new one was slightly lighter.

I don't mind getting less accurate greens, because I doubt I could tell the difference anyway.

rajdude

01-17-06, 08:32 AM

Nice! Thanks for the insight tse, I dont know what I'd do without you with this Ampro PJ! You and others here are the only things enabling me to hold on to this PJ, otherwise I'd have parted it out long back
Thanks again! Ok now back to the issues...

Board Swap Issue #1

That circuit does two things. First it switches power on and off to the amplifiers. 55 code. Second it's a current limit for the LVPS. It only allows a certain maximum amount of power draw. If an overload happens for more than half a minute or so the thermostat will disconnect power from the amps. After things cool down it will allow power to return.

Ya, I could understand that it is doing the '55 code' thing, but could not see that power draw limiting feature. Thanks! It seems to me that they may have upgraded that feature on the newer board (since that board has more complicated circuitry in that section)

BUT...Here is the potential problem...
I wonder if the parameters of the "power draw limit" are still the same. Because if they are not... that circuit may allow more power to be drawn (than what the LVPS can handle) and hence kill the LVPS.... right? UNLESS the LVPS is of the same power rating between the 4200 and the 3600/4600. THEN the things should be fine.

Does anyone know the differences of power / voltage ratings between a LVPS of a 4200 and a 3600/4600?

Board Swap Issue #2

Ok, here's where there may be a problem. Are the registration coils for the two models the same inductance? They might be but I don't remember. If they are different the compensation for the amps will be wrong and the output will be distorted. I don't think it will blow-up but it might not work right.

The values of components around the amps look the pretty much the same to me. It seems that a simple and 'safe' test would be to just swap the boards and see if the registration works right or not. If there is little chance that it will blow up, I may want to take the risk here.

But first, what do you think about the above issue?

-Rajiv

rajdude

01-17-06, 08:35 AM

Oh Rajiv... hurry up and part the damn thing out! I'll take the tubes and the HVPS :)

-Mark

HA HA, not so soon buddy! :D
First I have the exhaust all of my options...and it is good to have tse here at AVS. Maybe this PJ will work properly after all.

Even if it works for a couple of years after I get it working...I'm a happy camper.

rajdude

01-17-06, 08:38 AM

Ah, right, well the old element was the darker kind, the new one was slightly lighter.

I don't mind getting less accurate greens, because I doubt I could tell the difference anyway.

Ok, thanks for the update.

Now the problematic thing is...
My PJ already has a good Green C-Element. But I may want the darker green one.

But first ...How do I figure out that the existing C-element is the darker one OR the lighter one.

Most probably it is the darker one since your 4200 came with a darker green C-element. Right?

tse

01-17-06, 01:27 PM

One thing to keep in mind... The green "C" element reduces your light output 10 - 15%.

rajdude

01-17-06, 01:33 PM

tse,
looks like you are online.

Did you get a chance to read my response to the board swap issue (see it above or click here)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6937330&&#post6937330

I was just wondering about the LVPS power draw issue.

-RM

mtmelvin

01-17-06, 05:20 PM

...and it is good to have tse here at AVS.

THAT is a true statement. We are very lucky to have him here sharing his knowledge.

-Mark

rajdude

01-18-06, 02:03 PM

bump for tse

I hope he reads my post with a quick Q above
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...0&&#post6937330

rajdude

01-20-06, 07:28 AM

bump for tse

tse tse tse

Where are you?

rajdude

01-20-06, 09:55 PM

Hi tse

I hope you read my post with a quick Q above
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6937330&&#post6937330

I wanna do the board swap tonight, but first I'd like to hear what you think about this current draw thing.

Please respond.

tse

01-20-06, 11:22 PM

You are not going to overload your power supply if you take it easy with the corrections. Ampro was just starting to get into the simulator market when the 4600 was introduced and that market used curved screens, domes and all sorts of stuff that you don't normally use in home theater.

rajdude

01-20-06, 11:32 PM

sounds good, thanks tse.

I'll try to swap out the board tonight. But before I do that I will also check if any of my convergence controls are more/less than 75 or 25 respectively.

Thanks again! and wish me luck. :D

rajdude

01-22-06, 01:01 AM

Ok guys,
I have good news and bad news here today for my Ampro PJ. For one I am happy but the other is driving me nuts.

First, the good news:
The board swap was successful. :D
I did it at 4 AM! :eek:

The new board has slightly better ‘gain’. After converging from a total reset, the board runs at around 105 F. The older board ran at 140 + F and still rising. So that is a good thing and I wanted just this. I guess the properly designed heat sink is contributing to the lower temps here.

I must point out that this time I have tried to keep everything under/over 75/25 so that may have contributed towards the cooler running board. Still, there are one or two settings which are still beyond this range. I will elaborate:

The width of the red and blue does not match the green. I have to go beyond 25&75 (on the horizontal linearity setting) to get them match up with the green. See screenshots below. These are taken with registration off.

http://www.neilmehra.com/rajiv/hosted_images/IMG_4314.JPG

http://www.neilmehra.com/rajiv/hosted_images/IMG_4315.JPG

Note: You can also see that the image is skewed on blue and red, interestingly, both are opposite.

(continued onto the next post)

rajdude

01-22-06, 01:02 AM

Now for the bad news:
The convergence is still not stable.

I wonder what is causing this?

Here is what I did. I did a full convergence. It took me around an hr. Even when I was doing it the convergence was drifting a bit. Anyway, finally I did it and when I was done, it was not drifting at all. I guess the amp board’s temp may have stabilized.

So far so good, happy as I was, I went off to sleep at 5 AM. :eek:
(I know I need to get a life :o )

Today evening, I again got a chance to switch on the PJ, I find the convergence is off again. :mad:
Here is how much it is off:

http://www.neilmehra.com/rajiv/hosted_images/IMG_4313.JPG

I immediately thought that it is due to the cold convergence amp board. So I let it warm up to normal working temp by running a moving image for 30 minutes or so. To my dismay, it is still the same. What’s up? Why is my convergence not stable? What I am doing wrong here? :(

To provide more details I will post all I have here.

My PJ is hung a little tilted as shown below

http://www.neilmehra.com/rajiv/hosted_images/IMG_4319.JPG

This may contribute to the fact that I have to max out the keystone controls. Today I did not max out the keystone (I left it at 20) and this resulted in a keystoned pic which looks like this:

http://www.neilmehra.com/rajiv/hosted_images/IMG_4318.JPG

The reason why I have to tilt it downwards is because my screen is only 72” wide. Hence the PJ is pretty close to the screen. Hence the downward tilt.

Is this contributing to the drifting convergence?

Here is what my HT room looks like.

http://www.neilmehra.com/rajiv/hosted_images/IMG_4321.JPG

I wish I could accommodate a wider screen but those speakers are just too wide and the room not wide enough. I just love those speakers too much to get rid of them. I do not want a perf. screen either, so I’ll live with a small screen until I move to a bigger house.

Today, I am really frustrated, I don’t mind spending time on this PJ but once I set it up, I don’t expect to do convergence every time I wanna watch a movie. This drifting convergence is really driving me nuts. I have already done everything I can, I wonder what more I can do to cure this problem.

PLEASE HELP !

-Rajiv

rajdude

01-22-06, 01:06 AM

Oh yes! Please excuse the looks of the HT room. :o
I am still in the process of constructing the HT... if only this damn PJ would work properly. You can see blue painters tape. I just painted UPW white and framed it with 2" tape. I also have a da-lite screen (seen folded in the image) But it is smaller 64" wide and also flaps around.
All this is makeshift until I get this PJ issue solved.

man ! I swear....I should have bought a sony! I may just want to hang my 1270 up there soon. At least it was stable. :eek:

Clarence

01-22-06, 01:17 AM

This is a shot in the dark, but I recalled an old thread from Bob Wood about ampro convergence drift:

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3478657#post3478657

rajdude

01-22-06, 01:43 AM

This is a shot in the dark, but I recalled an old thread from Bob Wood about ampro convergence drift:

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3478657#post3478657

Uh Oh, :o and I thought I was the only one up at 1:30 AM reading AVA forums !!

Thanks Clarence, I'll read it now.

rajdude

01-22-06, 02:45 AM

Well, that thread's "solution" sounds resonable. I'd be REALLY surprised if that fixes my convergence issues.

I am taking out my de-oxit sprays now. It is 2:45 in the :mad: morning!

stefuel

01-22-06, 07:04 AM

I'm studying the oriantation of the projector to the screen and I can tell you for sure that it's mounted incorrectly. The projector is too high in relation to the screen which is why it's tilted down dramatically. To start, the base of the projector should be level and somewhere below the viewable top of the screen. Even if you move your screen as high as it can go, the projector will need to come down over a foot to be level and point at the center of the screen. Your vert keystone must be cranking. Mounting the projector correctly is the best place to start if you expect stability. I forget what size screen you have, but if you give me the size and it's height (center of the screen) in relation to the ceiling that the projectors mounted to, I will give you the correct projector mounting height. I'm sure the 4200 and 4600 mounting instructions are the same or close enough. I'd be willing to bet that this is the cause of your convergence board heat.

Chip

rajdude

01-22-06, 12:17 PM

Hi Chip,
Yes, I agree that the PJ is mounted incorrectly. I do have to use a lot of keystone. But I do not have the convergence board overheating issue anymore. I swapped that board with a x600's and that issue is gone.

Anyway the keystone is not done by the convergence board, it is done by the HOT.

But going back to your observation and recommendation....I doubt if just tilting the PJ down should cause the convergence to shift.

I have another idea and I will elaborate it in the following post.

-Rajiv

Clarence

01-22-06, 12:32 PM

But if you're maxing out the keystone setting and still getting keystone, that's stressing the electronics. I'd be interested in seeing if your convergence drift improved if you set it on a table mount for a temporary setup.

Also, IIRC, the 4200's scan reversal is more like this:

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/1984/amproreverse9rs.gif

But I think Bob's drift fix was for this type of Ampro scan reversal card:

http://img474.imageshack.us/img474/7525/653771rw.jpg

stefuel

01-22-06, 01:02 PM

rajdude

01-22-06, 01:41 PM

At the expense of me sounding like a A-hole, if you knowingly mounted it incorrectly, how do you justify complaining about the result. I'm not trying to bust your balls here. I'm trying to help but you gotta do the work ;)

Chip

chip,
I do understand your point here and no offence taken :)

...but as I said in my earlier post...I do not think that the keystone is causing the drift. I have the keystone set to 20...not maximised....hence the 'keystoned' image. (see my photo above). If this PJ is designed properly, it shoudl be able to "take it". I have checked other things in the convergence too....almost all of them are within 'acceptable range'

Anyway, as I said, I have another idea why this is happening and I do not think it is really a "convergence shift" anymore.

More in a minute.

rajdude

01-22-06, 02:04 PM

I have a totally different idea why all this convergence drift this is happening.

I noticed that the picture is not getting distorted, as it probably should happen if it is really a convergence drift. It is more like someone just knocked the whole CRT a bit to the right/left and upwards/downwards (depending upon which one is in question – red or blue)

I think it is my tubes which are shifting a little when the PJ heats up to normal working temp. Then when the PJ cools down, the tubes end up incorrectly aligned.

This is magnified due to the fact that I have my vertical shiempflug totally maximized. Actually it is so much ‘out’ that the springs are not in tension anymore! I think that may explain everything I am experiencing.

I could not sleep properly last night and was thinking about this the whole night. In the morning that was the first thing I told my wife and she was like…”you need to get a life!” !! HA HA

Anyway, while doing some search on AVS last night I saw a couple of posts from some one who ‘cured’ this problem by some locktite. In my case (I think) I’ll need stronger/longer springs for the shiempflug bolts.

But thinking about Clarence’s suggestion…that is exactly what I thought in the morning. I think I’ll take it down and put it on my wheeled platform. I will pull it back so that it projects a 100” wide image and see that my shiempflug bolts are all tightened correctly. I’ll also set it up horizontally.

Lets see if these problems go away or not.

Wish me luck and of course, all suggestions are welcome.

Oh yes, Clarence, you are right, that 4300 + PJ have that separate ckt board for flipping/inverting the image. All I did last night was to spray and clean all connectors using deoxit spray.

That did not help

-Rajiv

rajdude

01-22-06, 02:07 PM

But if you're maxing out the keystone setting and still getting keystone, that's stressing the electronics. I'd be interested in seeing if your convergence drift improved if you set it on a table mount for a temporary setup.

Nope :cool: I am NOT maxing out the keystone anymore....see my rather long posts above...it is set to 20 now. I used to but not this time (I setup the convergence again from scratch last night)

But I'll do as you say...I'll take it down soon.

Thanks!

Hey Did you get my PM?

stefuel

01-22-06, 02:16 PM

The reason you are maxed out with the springs is because the projector is mounted wrong. When you mount it correctly, the problem will be solved.
My last reply till you mount it correctly.

Chip

rajdude

01-22-06, 07:13 PM

The reason you are maxed out with the springs is because the projector is mounted wrong. When you mount it correctly, the problem will be solved.
My last reply till you mount it correctly.

Chip

I know that Chip, and I admitted it in my post, above.

I am going to reposition it to verify if that is really the problem. I think It is becoming clear that I cannot use this PJ in my current room (because it is too small)

I guess that my longs posts make my points unclear to people. Sorry :-) I'll try to be brief.

BTW, thanks for responding.

-Rajiv

tse

01-22-06, 11:32 PM

Your projector should be mounted as shown in the drawing. If it's off you will get unpredictable results.

tse

01-22-06, 11:35 PM

The projector won't work right if mounted too far from ideal.

rajdude

01-23-06, 07:33 AM

I understand now and thanks for the diagram, tse. I mounted the Ampro tilted downwards because of two reasons:-

1. …the dimensions of my room and,
2. …my old projector (a Sony 1270) let me tilt it from horizontal. It has special retractable legs for that purpose. Hence I thought it was OK to tilt PJs.

I am in the process of correcting the mounting now.

rajdude

01-24-06, 10:17 PM

Folks,
I have done all I can with this PJ and I’m almost ready to give up. :mad:
The convergence drift is not going away.

As many of you have advised me, I have corrected the mounting of the PJ. Here is how it looks like now.

http://www.neilmehra.com/rajiv/hosted_images/IMG_4336.JPG

The convergence still behaves exactly the same. It drifts off by EXACTLY the same distance every night. EVEN after the "correct" mounting of the PJ Here is how it looks like:

http://www.neilmehra.com/rajiv/hosted_images/IMG_4313.JPG

I have also pulled it as far back as I can on the ceiling mount. The image is around around 90 inches wide.

All bolts are tight, I did not even do a full shiempflug adjustment because I was afraid that loose bolts may be causing the tubes/lenses to shift as they warm up. The center of the screen is in pretty good focus. Anyway a shiempflug has nothing to do with convergence drift.

So I did a full convergence yesterday night and was happy with the results. The image was awesome. I went off the sleep and today evening I switched off the PJ. To my utter disappointment the convergence again drifted!

I thought maybe it is some memory problem. Not so ! because as I was re-aligning the center cross, I noticed that even within a span of a few minutes the convergence was drifting.

Now I do know that the PJ needs to be at a stable working temp but I’ve also tried leaving a video on for like 30 minutes so that the convergence snaps into place but nothing happens!

NOTE:
>>> I have made 100% sure that none of the convergence controls are not beyond that 25 or 75 range.

>>> Static keystone is at around 25 now.

>>> No board/heatsink in the PJ is overheating (that includes the convergence board)

>>> I have cleaned all connectors with deoxit

If someone has any ideas please let me know. I have invested a lot of time in this PJ but it still does not work properly. There is something fundamentally wrong with either me or this PJ.

As of for now I’m utterly disappointed with this PJ. :(

-Rajiv

ThurmanWitte

01-25-06, 12:46 PM

Probably some of the components on the registration board or registration amp board are drifting. Your projector is probably 12-15 years old, so the electrolytic caps may be pretty crappy by now.

Dion^Swamp

01-25-06, 03:50 PM

That's sad news, my own 4200 seemed to drift a bit to begin with, but after I did a quick holy-focus routine (physical alignment/astig/magnetics/repeat) my needs were very small and it stabilized after about 20 minutes warm up time.

Before junking the PJ do try to swap out all the electrolytics (starting with the convergence board) my bet is that those caps are getting old and are far more temperature sensitive than new ones, if some of them are used to couple the convergence signal then that might very well be the reason for the drifting.

Even if the caps are only used as decoupling for the powersupply then changing ESR and capacitance with temperature could also cause drifting.

Electrolytics are still the only components that get worn down by sitting on a shelf, so even if there is no logical way to link electrolytics to convergence I'd still change them.

rajdude

01-25-06, 09:49 PM

Ok guys,
(If anyone is interested in my rants) I have some little good news and (again) bad news.

The good news is that I have found the solution to this drifting.
As most of posts here suggest the convergence drift is caused by rising temperatures. A simple test was to do this:

http://www.neilmehra.com/rajiv/hosted_images/IMG_4346.JPG

Just put a fan and see. YES! The convergence becomes stable.

Then I used a heat gun to pin-point what is actually causing this drift. It is the components on the heatsink shown circled below…

http://www.neilmehra.com/rajiv/hosted_images/IMG_4350.JPG

Now why does is this circuit so sensitive to temperature changes…I do not know. Maybe more experienced people like tse and others may be able to explain. But it is how it is. I guess I need a fan on that heatsink.

Dion and Thurman, I do not think it is the capacitors because my convergence amp board seems to be pretty new. Look carefully in the image below.

http://www.neilmehra.com/rajiv/hosted_images/IMG_4347.JPG

Notice that the white silk-screened “VDC Display systems” ??? Yes, I have swapped this board with a newer, improved one.

So much for the good news, here is the bad news.

I noticed that my static focus has stopped working. Earlier only the dynamic focus was not working. The static was working because I did a full astig/flare some days back. After that I tried replacing the blown fuse on the focus board. Of course it blew away again. I guess in that process it took out the static section too.

Tse, any ideas what can be done to check the static section of that EM focus board?

Thanks for all your responses.
Rajiv

tse

01-25-06, 11:00 PM

overclkr

01-25-06, 11:09 PM

Wow, that's some pretty damn good focus. Maybe you should just sell that projector to me......

Cliff

stefuel

01-25-06, 11:53 PM

Well, I have some good news/bad news for you. The good news, your getting closer to the solution. The bad news is it's probably your fault. If you look at the three items circled, (two transistors with that round device in the middle) that round thing is the thermal fuse. When it get's hot, it cuts the power to the convergence registration board. This is the same as turning the registration off durring setup. When it cools off, it re-sets it's self. It makes a click sound when it does it's thing. If you can duplicate the drift by making it pop out, then your setup is incorrect. When the registration is off, the center should stay aligned. You may have pointed your guns with the reg on. The first thing I would do is to check all the retaining screws holding all the transistors to the heat sink. they sometimes loosen up. There may be two of those thermals on that sink. You can guess which one is popping by feeling the sink in the area of the themal. Which ever one is getting the hottest is most likely popping first. When the PJ is out of convergence, you could try jumping them out one at a time to see if the convergence pops back in (with insulated clips). This is just temporary. You can not leave them jumped out. Note: If the guns are not pointed with the registration OFF, then you are still over-driving something in the convergence circuit. In my opinion, one or two of those thermals were popped WHILE doing your final convergence. they re-set after you shut it off and remain re-set when you power it back up the next day giving you mis-convergence. I'll bet you noticed that the static moved while you were doing the setup and you compensated using red and blue shift to line up the center.

This is what I'd do right now. With the channel you are on , do a 29 [code] (clear active channel) then do a 55 [code] to turn the registration off. With your source on, do a 4 [test] and cycle through the available internal test patterns using the step button till you get a cross pattern. Re-point the guns so that the vertical lines at the center overlap. Turn the registration back on 55 [code] and do the convergence over again.
One note while in the registration off mode. The vertical and horizontal center lines of all three colors should be very close to plum and level. If one or more of these seems twisted, you may need to loosen the clamp on the convergenc yoke and turn it slightly to straighten them out. If these are corrected, you will use less convergence and in turn less heat.

It would be very interesting if you could post a picture of a test pattern with the registration off prior to doing anything else first.

But what do I know? I'm just a dumb-ass country boy.

Chip

rajdude

01-26-06, 08:28 AM

Wow, that's some pretty damn good focus. Maybe you should just sell that projector to me......

dude, I did not really understand that comment. :)
Are you joking/sarcastic or saying the PJ's focus is good?

rajdude

01-26-06, 08:31 AM

Chip and tse and others,
I think there is some confusion about my convergence drift issue.
Hence, please let me clarify:

Point to be noted #1
The drift is not huge...The convergence drifts by just one or two pixel width.
Please see the 'after drift' screen-shot here:

http://www.neilmehra.com/rajiv/hosted_images/IMG_4313.JPG
This is a close-up of the center of the screen.

Point to be noted #2

The convergence board is NOT overheating anymore
Even without the fan it stablizes at around 100F which is not too hot....just nice and warm.

I'll reply to others' comments in the evening when I have photographic images of my mechanical setup.

[My sincere thanks to everyone helping me out here.]

-Rajiv

overclkr

01-26-06, 10:22 AM

dude, I did not really understand that comment. :)
Are you joking/sarcastic or saying the PJ's focus is good?

I'm saying your focus looks good! ;) :D

rajdude

01-26-06, 10:34 AM

I'm saying your focus looks good! ;) :D

Oh now I understand! you are joking.
Of course that focus is not good. My focus board is dead! :(

Hey, didn't we meet at Art's?

stefuel

01-26-06, 10:56 AM

rajdude

01-26-06, 11:29 AM

The point I'm trying to make here is, if you do a 55[code] (registration off) and it still looks like this, then the guns are pointed wrong. Just show us a picture of what you see on the screen with the registation turned off.

Chip

I fully understand and totally agree with your point Chip, but i need to get back home first to take pics. :)

Thanks for all your tips!

rajdude

01-26-06, 11:41 AM

The section that you have circled is a current limit circuit. Under normal conditions the transistors are fully turned on. They are like a short. About the same voltage that comes in, goes out. If the current level that they are set to limit is exceeded they will begin to turn down their conduction and present a resistance between the power supply and the registration amplifiers. This makes them run hot. If they get hot enough it will trip the thermostat on the little heatsink. This turns off power to the registration amplifiers. The little heatsink that you have circled should normally run cool. If it is hot you are using too much registration.

The registration amplifier will not draw too much current if the mechanical set-up is correct. It seems like you are trying to use more registration power than the system was designed to use.

Thanks tse,
But none of my registration parameters are beyond 25/75. Most are around 50.

Do you know what the current limit is for that circuit?
I can put an ammeter to check actual current draw.

That little heatsink never gets "HOT" but it does not run totally cool either. When stablized it is warm at around 80-90 F.

Will 80 to 90F count as "cool"?

-Rajiv

stefuel

01-28-06, 02:07 AM

Still waiting for those pictures of the test pattern with the registration off. Or have you given up ;)

Chip

rajdude

01-29-06, 08:38 AM

Sorry for the delay, Chip.
I wrote this response on Thursday and took the pics on Thu night. But the internet connection was dead at home.

So here goes...

Well, I have some good news/bad news for you. The good news, your getting closer to the solution. The bad news is it's probably your fault. If you look at the three items circled, (two transistors with that round device in the middle) that round thing is the thermal fuse. When it get's hot, it cuts the power to the convergence registration board. This is the same as turning the registration off durring setup. When it cools off, it re-sets it's self. It makes a click sound when it does it's thing. If you can duplicate the drift by making it pop out, then your setup is incorrect.

No I cannot 'pop it out'....no click sound. That ckt never gets hot. Stays just warm. if that ckt cuts power to the reg board, I will lose all registration...right?...but I DO NOT lose all registration.

When the registration is off, the center should stay aligned....
(snip)
In my opinion, one or two of those thermals were popped WHILE doing your final convergence. they re-set after you shut it off and remain re-set when you power it back up the next day giving you mis-convergence. I'll bet you noticed that the static moved while you were doing the setup and you compensated using red and blue shift to line up the center.

My center does stay aligned with the reg. off.
Please see below a shot with registration turned off.

http://www.neilmehra.com/rajiv/hosted_images/IMG_4363.jpg
REGISTRATION OFF

Ok, now see a screenshot with the registration turned on.

http://www.neilmehra.com/rajiv/hosted_images/IMG_4364.jpg
REGISTRATION ON

One note while in the registration off mode. The vertical and horizontal center lines of all three colors should be very close to plum and level. If one or more of these seems twisted, you may need to loosen the clamp on the convergenc yoke and turn it slightly to straighten them out. If these are corrected, you will use less convergence and in turn less heat.

Ok, here is a shot of a cross pattern with the registration off.

http://www.neilmehra.com/rajiv/hosted_images/IMG_4361.jpg
REGISTRATION OFF

As you can see, the horizontal lines are very close to each other. But the vertical lines are a little skewed. Hence I have to use 'vertical skew' control, but not much...I think it is around 55 or lower.

The service manual says that the yoke should be adjusted so that the horizontal lines align as much as possible. It says not to worry about the vertical lines.

I will try adjusting the yoke but I think we can get only one aligned either vertical or horizontal.
Were you able to get both aligned?

But what do I know? I'm just a dumb-ass country boy.

Chip

Hmm... I wonder why you'd say that? Kidding/sarcastic/lonely out there, eh? :)
Personally, I think you know a lot about these PJs and are a valuable member at AVS Forums.

BTW, I love the area of US where you live. I lived in the New England area for 3-4 years. A couple of those years were in Burlington, MA and Tewksbury, MA. The islands are really pretty. I miss it all...the lighthouses and the cape. I just wish they had more jobs there.