Sony 4K SRX-R110 Test at Home [Text View] - Page 2

DefinerOfReality

04-22-07, 03:39 PM

Firstly, I apologize for not posting anything on the SRX-R110 that I purchased for my cinema laboratory in August 23, 2006 until now.

After almost 8 months of testing and a recent Sony Hardware upgrade that included the Uniformity Correction, my feeling is that this projector technology has the potential to equal and even surpass the very highest quality motion picture film in accurately recreating a believable image or reality.

Different qualities of an original film or video element are better reproduced by certain technologies than others. But the SXRD variety, as presented in the current Sony SR Projectors SRX-R and S 105, 110 and the R220, when properly calibrated and given a great source shown in a properly designed and blacked-out theater room, like Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, and 1080p HD content from the internet, can produce a more startlingly realistic (transparent) image than any other commercially available electronic design I have worked with and tested. :eek:

Please do not misunderstand my enthusiasm. Other technologies can easily produce (at times and in certain scenes) an overwhelmingly delightful impression of looking at the original film elements, particularly 9-inch CRT and 3-chip Digital Cinema DLP projectors.

But if you directly compare properly timed 35mm and 70mm prints with their 1080p24sFs High Definition counterparts available commercially on various HD sources, the immediate sensation has been that the film source is more analog - featuring frame weave, dust, scratches, variable color quality and density, and of course the feeling of looking through the film (like a filter) at the actual objects and people being filmed. Breathtaking! :)

Yet, the newest 1080p and 2k digital projectors, and in particular the newest Mark II Sony SR 4k Ciné Alta SXRD, are capable of much greater consistency, contrast ratio, and depth of field than most commercially screened film prints, even under ideal Academy Screening conditions - now largely replaced by sending the DVD to the members rather than insist they check out the film in a great theater.

The SRX-R110 adds to this exceptionally wide and accurate color fidelity (like DC DLP), added apparent resolution and depth of field using 1080p sources via internal scaling to 4k, and huge light output (10-12k lumens for the 110) that I view in an ideally darkened large cinema to increase peak light levels and Contrast Ratios to appear and measure like daylight for exterior scenes and yet remain equally accurate and lushly detailed going into black. Extraordinary! :D

No projector is perfect, and this Sony SXRD design has room for improvement.

Even though the uniformity was re-tuned using the Sony Purity Jig, I have found that this slips over time, becoming slightly blotchy, requiring a re-tune at each bulb replacement (every 800 hours for each of the two 2 kW Xenon bulbs - each at about $2,100 US Dollars plus installation).

The convergence is now adjustable in the controller software, but it is limited to 2 pixel horizontal and vertical adjustments of red or blue versus a stationary green. 1 pixel adjustments over a 10 pixel range should have been the obvious choice. Fortunately, like most, I had the entire red panel be off by 2 pixels south of correct (after 2 hour warm up!), so I am square on for convergence throughout most of the screen (no more than 1/2 pixel variation).

While the three gamma settings (1.8,2.2,2.6) are extremely accurately set up by Sony, there are no additional adjustments possible as there are in most of the other Digital Cinema projectors. Normally, I set up film based sources using a 2.23-2.26 gamma depending upon the nature of the film transfer and mastering. Thus, 2.2 can look a little light and washed out, and 2.6 can appear to be kind of dark, again via comparison to the original film elements.

Even so, I personally find after an extensive history in both film and video industries and after viewing and scrutinizing dozens of dozens of Academy Screenings, IMAX and 70mm prints throughout the world this past 3 years, that the capabilities of Digital Cinema (particularly at 4k projection resolution and higher :p ) can exceed the quality of a 35mm or 70mm motion picture film original (negative or inter-positive).

From my perspective, 4k projection (and higher) now represents the only sensible direction for the entire film and video industries to move in. Otherwise, very shortly, no one will want to go out to the movies in a theater, ever again! And who will blame us, when MTs have been continuously offering a substandard experience for two-and-a-half decades, even at the IMAX!

I wonder what they will come up with next to bring us back?

mhafner

04-22-07, 04:01 PM

Yet, the newest 1080p and 2k digital projectors, and in particular the newest Mark II Sony SR 4k Ciné Alta SXRD, are capable of much greater consistency, contrast ratio, and depth of field than most commercially screened film prints, even under ideal Academy Screening conditions - now largely replaced by sending the DVD to the members rather than insist they check out the film in a great theater.

Kodak says contrast can be upto 10000:1 from a print. SXRD 4K is stuck at ~2500:1. A long way to go to surpass all prints. Beating your average bad print is no big deal. The state of the art for On-off contrast from digital projectors is now 15000:1 from the JVC. And even this is not enough (for me). Once the 4K has at least these 15000:1 it becomes interesting to me. Till then it's just a projector with resolution to spare (but no consumer sources to use it) and a big problem with dark scenes.

DefinerOfReality

04-22-07, 05:03 PM

Ohlson

04-22-07, 05:16 PM

mhafner
We know that public screenings will be limited in attainable contrast due to safety regulations.

DefinerOfReality
Do you see the new single bulb line as great step forward? Will Srx-r220/210 be have features beyond Srx-r110 mk2?
What kind of color bit depth are these Sonys capable of showing on screen with the best available sources?
Do you see xenons going out and lasers in?

DefinerOfReality

04-22-07, 06:17 PM

mhafner
We know that public screenings will be limited in attainable contrast due to safety regulations.

Please see my other post regarding the correct interpretation of industry contrast ratios, located on this page:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10365435#post10365435

Public movie theater contrast ratios are dictated by the quality of the projection, nature of the theater, and of course the source material.

mhafner
DefinerOfReality
Do you see the new single bulb line as great step forward? Will Srx-r220/210 be have features beyond Srx-r110 mk2?
What kind of color bit depth are these Sonys capable of showing on screen with the best available sources?
Do you see xenons going out and lasers in?

The SRX-R220 (18,000 Lumens - Sony) projector was supposed to offer almost twice the light output of the 110 (10,000 Lumens).

Have a look at this:

http://www.sonybiz.net/res/attachment/file/12/1172517874712.pdf

And lasers are definitely at the top of my list of light sources, as they offer extremely precise colorimetry, convergence, and blinding contrast ratio!

mhafner

04-23-07, 06:20 AM

Are you referring to this PDF from KODAK: Conquering Contrast Killers - Print Friendly Version that says (in part):
Modern color print film stocks like Kodak Vision premier color print film have a
density range of more than 4.0, giving filmmakers an unprecedented palette of
colors and a contrast range of more than 10,000:1 to tell their stories.
Unfortunately, most theatres fall short of even the minimum 400:1 screen
contrast ratio specified by SMPTE Standard 196M.
Followed by:
Since theatre screen contrast
is the ratio between the "whitest white" and "blackest black" that can be
shown on the screen, low screen luminance significantly degrades the range of
brightness that can be shown. SMPTE Standard 196M specifies an aim of 16
footlamberts screen luminance, with an allowed range of 12 to 22 footlamberts
for theatres. In no case should any part of the screen (even at the edges) be
less than 10 footlamberts. Unfortunately, many theatres do not meet this
important standard. Movies in these sub-standard theatres have dull
highlights, desaturated colors, and very poor shadow detail. Theatres with low
screen luminance are cheating both filmmakers and audiences by failing to
provide proper projection.

I know that actual performance in cinemas is far worse than 10000:1 for various reasons. And with a DLP or SXRD you can match average cinema contrast performance. I find neither attractive in this regard and in need of considerable improvement.

And who says that JVC's DLA-RS1 has a CR of 15,000:1?

People like Greg Rogers would measured it and are very competent in what they do. I have no reason to doubt this result. Do you? Of course this is not a unit for commercial cinemas able to light large screens.

Have you measured the CR for this (or any) projector using SMPTE methods and approved test patterns along with a professional light meter?
Not in a cinema but I have measured some projectors in my black hole home cinema. 15000:1 is not feasible in regular cinemas. Probably never will be. But that is not stopping me from wanting that and more in MY cinema. I see the effects of On-Off CR >> 10000:1 daily. I know what it looks like. And what 2000:1 looks like (pitiful with dark material).
What is your point anyway? That no cinema units come close to 15000:1? Yeah, unfortunately. If you need lots of light nothing has real good On-Off contrast for the time being. :(
But technologically it's possible to have 4K units made for home cinemas that are not light cannons and have CR like the JVC and beyond. Such units I'm waiting for. The lure of 4K alone does not do much for me. The only 4K source I have are stills anyway and no films.

Ohlson

04-23-07, 09:00 AM

DefinerOfReality
I looked at your link on contrast. What you point towards is what is commnly called in scene contrast or simultanous contrast. ANSI contrast is one very special case of such a measurement. Mark Petersen has a thread devoted to new test patterns to compiiment ANSI contrast.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=781060

At www.cine4home.de they have measured contrast from a real projected image. http://www.cine4home.de/Specials/ANSIvsONOFF/ANSIvsONOFF.htm

Are you saying that you expeact Srx-r220 to be more than or less than 18000 ANSI lumen. My quick math based on the pdf would have me think more than 18000 ANSI lumen.

I sure hope lasers can be successfully applied to big cinema projectors too. It is only a matter of time before lasers start to nest inside front projectors.

mburnstein

10-10-07, 01:51 PM

Finally, after a little over a year, I have almost complete:

The Kipnis Studio Standard Screening Experience

Wow!!!!

DefinerOfReality

10-10-07, 01:53 PM

Finally, after a little over a year, I have almost completed:

The Kipnis Studio Standard Screening Experience

This article details some of the technical innovations I have invented:

http://www.ukslc.org/News/Installs_and_Case_Stories/Kipnis_Studios:_Setting_New_Standards_in_Theater_Design.html

And these are several pictures of the finished Cinema.

www.kipnis-studios.com

DefinerOfReality

10-10-07, 02:02 PM

Wow!!!!

Thank You! :cool:

This represents four years of world-wide research to develop and finally produce the finest picture and sound presentation on the planet.

As you can see from the photographs, no time has been wasted nor technology overlooked in the quest to produce the very finest fidelity possible.

www.kipnis-studios.com

CINERAMAX

10-10-07, 02:26 PM

Well done. You have taken the wind out of my sails. :D

mburnstein

10-10-07, 02:28 PM

Well done. You have taken the wind out of my sails. :D
No way Peter :)!!!:p

DefinerOfReality

10-10-07, 02:28 PM

Here are some photos taken last year when the Sony SRX-R110 first came in, and before I completely redid the acoustic treatments and added a sophisticated Chauvet 60 LED PAR lighting system that allows me to paint any part of the room and any individual piece of equipment with bright, deeply saturated light of just about any color in the rainbow!

www.kipnis-studios.com

mburnstein

10-10-07, 02:46 PM

How do you do your center channel (s) as I read your screen is not perforated?

Andrikos

10-10-07, 02:52 PM

mburnstein

10-10-07, 02:53 PM

High End Systems start at $2 Million :):):p

DefinerOfReality

10-10-07, 03:08 PM

mburnstein: How do you do your center channel (s) as I read your screen is not perforated?

If you look at picture number 6 you will see that I have created a Center Channel Array - composed of (3) Snell LCR 2800, (2) Snell Sub 1800, and (2) Murata Super Tweeters - powered currently by (10) McIntosh MC-2102 Vacuum Tube Amplifiers (Bridged - Balanced Mode), and (2) Mark Levinson No. 33H.

This array is waveguide enhanced using Multiple Auralex Acoustic MoPads and Gramma Acoustic Stands along with precise center and lateral positioning down to 1/2 mm accuracy.

Below you will find more photos showing a wider view of the whole room.

In the first, you can see 20 of the 30 (currently in use) McIntosh MC-2102 Vacuum Tube Amplifiers, as seen from directly over the top center of the screen (Asta - Mr. Dawg for scale).

The second shows writer Steve Guttenburg watching his favorite film during our interview for an upcoming feature article in Home Theater Magazine!

And the third is the reverse view with Steve and Myself - The Money Shot!

Jeremy

www.kipnis-studios.com

DefinerOfReality

10-10-07, 03:26 PM

Holy mother of god!
How many liters (or is it cubic meters?) of air displacement does your audio system have?

Absolutely STUNNING!

My one gripe, and it's a minor one, is that the lighted displays of your monoblocks detract from the screen.

PS Oh yeah, you need a 2.35 screen ;)

Thank you for your kind words. :)

Meters? Liters? The answer: ∞ (Infinite) Hence the varous earthquacks that have been showing up, recently. :rolleyes:

That's not a gripe. It's just a badly metered test shot. But it turns out that the McIntosh Meters (even though quite bright) are totally buried by the projector during most scenes because of it's 10,000 ANSI Lumen Output, and anytime there is a totally dark scene I can either enjoy the circular nature of my design (not necessarily for every customer) which is reminiscent of being on the Bridge of the Enterprise, or simply mute the lights entirely.

I am testing 2.40:1 screens currently, but the cinematography for anything less wide is all over the place with respect to proper seating distance. I personally would be happier being able to adjust each and every source so that it is true to the original director's vision.

DefinerOfReality

10-10-07, 03:28 PM

High End Systems start at $2 Million :):):p

Beginning Today! :p:p:p:p:p:p

westgate

10-10-07, 03:43 PM

mburnstein

10-10-07, 04:55 PM

Beginning Today! :p:p:p:p:p:p

Jeremy, you have the best "job" :):p

DefinerOfReality

10-10-07, 05:01 PM

Jeremy, you have the best "job" :):p

I agree!!!

It sure took a long time to get here though, I must say!

And every day brings something new to test and experiment with.

But it's all FUN :p:rolleyes::cool:;):eek:

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.kipnis-studios.com

Digital2004

10-10-07, 06:27 PM

floored !! amazing room and amazing nr of speakers subs amps etc.

Alan Gouger

10-10-07, 06:51 PM

Amazing. Youve raised the bar. I think we need a new forum. The 20k+ is old news:)

overclkr

10-10-07, 07:45 PM

I agree!!!

It sure took a long time to get here though, I must say!

And every day brings something new to test and experiment with.

But it's all FUN :p:rolleyes::cool:;):eek:

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.kipnis-studios.com

That is by far THE SICKEST setup I have ever seen.

The one thing that stumps me though is why you have all of the equipment lighting up the room? I'm a stickler for the black hole which I damn near have now in my theater.

Cliff

mburnstein

10-10-07, 08:13 PM

Amazing. Youve raised the bar. I think we need a new forum. The 20k+ is old news:)
Yes, but the caveat here is jeremy is a PRO. So he is in a different category of greatness and over the top. The "regular" :)guys :p like Art and Ptrubey lead the other pack!

10-10-07, 09:12 PM

Ahem.

mburnstein

10-10-07, 09:33 PM

Ahem.

Your are a PRO too Paul :p

RobboNL

10-11-07, 07:38 AM

Why pushing the sound experience to the max, while the Sony SRX is making lots of exhaust noise, at the rear of the room ?

Kevin Bright

10-11-07, 08:43 AM

What kind of acoustical treatments does the room have? Looks like there would be some significant phasing issues. Bet the room keeps pretty warm in the winter too.

10-11-07, 09:10 AM

Why pushing the sound experience to the max, while the Sony SRX is making lots of exhaust noise, at the rear of the room ?

If I may, it is a noisy projector, but it was important to get the system up and running. Architectural plans have already been drawn up for a projection booth. You don't hear the fans when the system is running at full bore, and of course the projector is turned off for serious two channel and multi-channel audio listening.

What kind of acoustical treatments does the room have? Looks like there would be some significant phasing issues. Bet the room keeps pretty warm in the winter too.

The room was originally carefully designed as a music chamber for performances and recordings. Subsequently, the room has been further treated with modern techniques and acoustic control devices. The ceiling alone is a work of Auralex art. (Perhaps a photo of that can be posted.) The floor has a concrete base. There are also tube traps. To the left of your listening seat there is a wall of 40,000 or so albums. To your right, on the other side of the room, there is a wall of sheet music, other media, and commerical room treatments. It is a very, very good sounding room, and was from the beginning.

Speaking of phasing, the room is fully balanced from the separate massive transformers each feeding completely separate panels (for the digital and analog equipment) with an astouding 1400 amps of beautiful Equi-Tech balanced power. Enough juice to run a moderately sized factory. I'm surprised Homeland Security hasn't paid a visit.

mburnstein

10-11-07, 10:15 AM

I was kind of stating the obvious that a system in the home of an A/V installer/integrator/businessowner may be expected to be over the top. Yet when it appears in a client's house, that takes it into a different category of hobbie$t, Home Theater Enthu$ie$t, who have paid for a price no object system.

W.Mayer

10-11-07, 12:50 PM

RobboNL

10-12-07, 05:33 AM

yes, definitely a nice playground :)

DefinerOfReality

10-12-07, 02:42 PM

the pictures are really very very spectacular.

one thing i miss.
its the possibility to cover all the speakers amplifier and all the rest
with some black velvet or similar things to see JUST THE PICTURE
when a film starts.

that room is very opposite to my black box desingn cinema
but i like the picture.
i had a lot of fun when i saw it.

Thanks again for your kind words.

In fact, I would be only too happy to design a "Black Box" theater, where everything but the screen is completely hidden.

But my goal with the demonstration system is to also be able to listen to anything from LP, Reel to Reel, and CD up to and beyond 8 Channel Linear PCM in a room that has some atmosphere - particularly with the spectacular 60 Chauvet Multi-Color LED PAR Light Show. And I'm certain that specific customers for this system who are also audiophiles would enjoy being able to experience $2 Million (or more) of attractively designed audio equipment right their in front of them.

It is particularly important to stress that the display lights can be turned off at any time on all the components in this system. Furthermore, when watching a movie, television show, video game, browsing the internet, selecting photos from your computer library, watching a BIG screen saver, etc. etc., one is only initially aware of the equipment surrounding them in their center seat, followed by - TOTAL IMMERSION. When there is no light on the screen, the room is pitch black - you cannot see your hands in front of your face, or anything else for that matter! Don't Trip!!!

So the choice would be entirely up to the individual client. I would even go as far as creating a room that "transforms" from a large stylish listening room or plush studio office into a "BlackOut Box", with ceiling and floor retractable wall treatments.

Anything is possible, if only we can imagine it, and then work hard enough at it!

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

DefinerOfReality

10-12-07, 02:48 PM

Amazing. Youve raised the bar. I think we need a new forum. The 20k+ is old news:)

Many, Many Thanks!

Perhaps the new forum should be $1,000,000.00, and up! :rolleyes:

CINERAMAX

10-12-07, 03:06 PM

DefinerOfReality

10-12-07, 03:13 PM

Why pushing the sound experience to the max, while the Sony SRX is making lots of exhaust noise, at the rear of the room ?

I think PF said it best.

I spend at least 50% of any given day inside The Kipnis Studio Standard listening to music and evaluating the sound quality of equipment, mixes, and recordings. So the room is engineered for the best possible sound (given a pre-existing structure dedicated to music making by my father, Harpsichordist Igor Kipnis - his practice/concert hall - built in 1980 by an acoustically inspired architect.) From here, I have systematically developed the room into a Cinema and dealt with acoustic issues related to creating an octagonally based 8.8 playback system in a room that must feature a huge flat screen on one (nearly full) surface.

I am currently reworking the projection booth plans to accommodate a larger, future projector(s), regardless of brand consideration. Once completed, there will be absolutely NO NOISE emanating from the booth, the projector . . . "the whole damn thing!"

This is another reason I picked the Chauvet LED Lighting system - it is inherently silent, unlike 60 incandescents - and they generate no heat!

So when I'm watching and evaluating visual material, there must always be sound on in the room, even if its just browsing the internet or my photo library (at 22' diagonal ;)), and when it's a well mixed film, the sound experience is visceral, tactile, 3-dimensional, uncolored, astonishing!

It's like being on a holodeck of a StarShip.

You choose the source!

Jeremy

www.kipnis-studios.com

DefinerOfReality

10-12-07, 03:41 PM

Hold it ! Hold it! We need to put this in perspective.

I would like permission to play devil's advocate. While throwing around 2 million dollars is impressive in and of itself. For some what you are suggesting is for people that have more money than brains. I can do a system for under half a million dollars that truly recreates reality and breaks ground in evry video parameter that counts. I am sorry but yours while very very good ain't the best BY A LONG SHOT. So money and creativity amount to second best (am afraid). Well I got that off my chest. Not to take away from your Audiovisual equipment Juggernaut, but it is old school.

Honestly, (devil's second advocate) how can you really expect me to take your comments seriously or believe your conclusion ("Old School?") based only on a few pictures and a short (but nicely written) article?

This concept (The Kipnis Studio Standard) is specifically designed for the discriminating Producer, Director, or CEO of a motion picture, television, and/or media enterprise so that they can see, hear, and feel EXACTLY what is going on in anyone's work - including their own. There is no guess work involved!

The reference point is reality - and every day I get a little bit closer - because I don't jump to snap conclusions before running numerous actual listening and viewing tests. Perhaps you would like to join me for a hand tailored demonstration of your favorite materials?

I regularly attend: Premier IMAX Showings, Academy Screenings, 70mm & 35mm film playback in direcotor's homes, Live concerts with The Boston Symphony, New York Philharmonic, Philadelphia Orchestra, The National Philharmonic, engineering audiophile recordings for 20+, taking professional large format photos for 37, etc.

Anyone who is really serious and truly involved with art form of picture and sound (re)creation deserves to have a look and a listen to what is truly possible when one works through all the technical limitations imposed on us by the various fragmented industries.

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.kipnis-studios.com

gmgav

10-12-07, 03:53 PM

Honestly, (devil's second advocate) how can you really expect me to take your comments seriously or believe your conclusion ("Old School?") based only on a few pictures and a short (but nicely written) article?

This concept (The Kipnis Studio Standard) is specifically designed for the discriminating Producer, Director, or CEO of a motion picture, television, and/or media enterprise so that they can see, hear, and feel EXACTLY what is going on in anyone's work - including their own. There is no guess work involved!

The reference point is reality - and every day I get a little bit closer - because I don't jump to snap conclusions before running numerous actual listening and viewing tests. Perhaps you would like to join me for a hand tailored demonstration of your favorite materials?

I regularly attend: Premier IMAX Showings, Academy Screenings, 70mm & 35mm film playback in direcotor's homes, Live concerts with The Boston Symphony, New York Philharmonic, Philadelphia Orchestra, The National Philharmonic, engineering audiophile recordings for 20+, taking professional large format photos for 37, etc.

Anyone who is really serious and truly involved with art form of picture and sound (re)creation deserves to have a look and a listen to what is truly possible when one works through all the technical limitations imposed on us by the various fragmented industries.

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.kipnis-studios.comYou never even did one commercial cinema though! And using tube amps for the sound??

CINERAMAX

10-12-07, 04:02 PM

DefinerOfReality

10-12-07, 06:18 PM

You never even did one commercial cinema though! And using tube amps for the sound??

Commercial Cinemas are "Old School", to quote someone here. Why would anyone spend exorbitant amounts of money to create something that everyone else has already seen?

What is required for the cutting edge is to think outside the box, and bring together all of the different disciplines in pursuit of the best presentation quality.

The Kipnis Studio Standard supersedes any previously executed home or professional viewing / listening room in both scope of design, measurable technical improvements in picture and sound creation, and aesthetic appeal - which can be anything a client might desire.

Having tested and auditioned all of the major amplifier candidates currently available (that includes historic pieces), certain tube amplifiers stand out as being more musically and sonically transparent than most of the top end solid-state competitors. In fact, I feel that with certain speakers in some types of acoustic it is advantageous to use tube amplification for some drivers and solid-state on others, depending upon the the speaker design and room interaction.

But what is truly amazing about using tube amplification is it's ability to not sound like what people primarily believe tubes to sound like: Tubey and Euphonic! To achieve this same level of (No Sonic Signature) with competitively designed solid-state amplifiers requires spending between 2-6 times as much money, initially. Again, this comes from decades of highly specialized evaluation and professional audiophile recording experience.

The precise combination of technologies that any particular client might require, along with the continuing evolution of the various technologies involved keeps me testing and evaluating equipment daily.

This is the only way to stay on top of this game!

dicey

10-12-07, 10:25 PM

My contention is on the subpar video that the SRX portrays in comparison with the latest digital cinema dlp's.

INFOCOMM '07

As I walked into the Sony demo room where they were showing their SRX-S110 4K battleship and raised my eyes up to the screen, what I saw completely blew my mind! This was easily THE MOST AMAZING PICTURE QUALITY I HAVE EVER SEEN!!!!! The guys running the Sony demo must have felt the same way I did about the demo material that was being use by the 'other guys' and had opted to use some of their own 2K and 4K clips. One of the most visually impressive of these was a 4K trailer for an IMAX movie called Mystic India. Now I've seen my fair share of IMAX films, but this was incredible! While it didn't have the size and scope of IMAX, the clarity of the image was something I have never seen before. For the first time ever, I literally felt like I could reach in and touch the objects I was seeing on the screen! Simply breathtaking! But the one clip that truely made me shake my head in disbelief was a 4K clip from the Sound of Music. Yep, you read that right, THE SOUND OF MUSIC!!! The clip was from the scene were Julie Andrews teaches the children the 'Doe, A Dear' song in the Bavarian countyside. Now here is movie that must be like 50 years old, but during the entire time that I'm watching it, the PQ was so clear that I felt like that at any given monent I could literally walk into the picture and start dancing around with Julie and the kids!! It was that clear. And honestly, if I hadn't seen it myself, I wouldn't have believed that such transparency was possible. My hat is off to Sony and the "demoboys" for showing me and everyone else who saw it just what is truly possible when the sky's the limit!
I only wish that I could have seen these clips on the other projectors in the other rooms because I'm sure that they would have looked amazing as well.

CINERAMAX,

I think you are selling Sony's SRX's a little short. Sure, they may not be SotA in every catagory, but what PJ is, and for how long?
But if there's one thing that I know for certain about them, it's that they can throw one helluva nice picture!:cool:

Oh, and to DOR,

All I can say to you, sir is .......I think I just found my new best friend! :D Truly awesome. Congrats.

CINERAMAX

10-12-07, 11:03 PM

4k material is very very good, but we don't have that format at home.

Shoeast is next week. We will see who the new champion is, then.

The servo zoom lens, higher ansi , maximum MTF, coupled with custom aperture plates is giving a serious edge to digital cinema DLP.

Kevin Bright

10-13-07, 12:54 AM

mburnstein

10-13-07, 09:00 AM

Thanks again for your kind words.

In fact, I would be only too happy to design a "Black Box" theater, where everything but the screen is completely hidden.

So the choice would be entirely up to the individual client. I would even go as far as creating a room that "transforms" from a large stylish listening room or plush studio office into a "BlackOut Box", with ceiling and floor retractable wall treatments.

Anything is possible, if only we can imagine it, and then work hard enough at it!

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

Now that would be something to see (or not see except for video screen) and hear!

DefinerOfReality

10-13-07, 12:46 PM

"Kipnis Studio Standard supersedes any previously executed home or professional viewing / listening room in both scope of design, measurable technical improvements in picture and sound creation, and aesthetic appeal"

That is a pretty bold statement! I would remove the 'aesthetic appeal' part, personally I find it impressive but intrusive and gawdy. Hardly ideal for professional viewing (viewing angle, reflective surfaces, projector noise, etc).

The aesthetic appeal is entirely up to the client. :p

Gawdy is Great, and Black is Beautiful. And there are an infinite number of other architectural approaches which I am prepared to bring into fruition with the best possible picture and sound technologies available.

For myself, as an audiophile producer and engineer, I need my sound system to be both visible (so I can evaluate levels for each channel and within each channel - divided into six sections) and also easily replaceable, since I am constantly testing new technologies.

But, in fact, I suspect 96% of my clients will prefer to have all the equipment hidden, and even have the room transform from one type of function (listening or living) into another (viewing or editing (post)). The choice is entirely up to the individual - and no two Kipnis Studio Standard Cinemas will likely be exactly the same, unless that is exactly what they want!

Clearly, the demonstration system I have created for myself is an exact reflection of the fun and professional type of environment that I personal enjoy. It should serve as an example of what is possible when all areas of presentation quality are addressed and maximized. As I said, most client's will undoubtedly want something that looks entirely different or invisible but maintains THE CUTTING EDGE in picture and sound recreation whenever they require it.

As I pointed out earlier, the projector noise (which will completely disappear with the creation of the projection booth) and visually reflective surfaces (such as the chrome on the amps or the Walnut Stage Floor) create a negligible distractions for the first 5-10 seconds, at most. Then one completely becomes immersed in the presentation. The geometry and architecture of the room have been idealized with the specific purpose of drawing the viewer into the image (and sound). This is based on considerable research and development over the last 37 years in cinemas and screening rooms throughout the world, and is particularly inspired by the work of Bill Todd, creator of TODD-AO: the first commercially successful 70mm film format. His work is a pioneering legacy we should all pay much more attention to.

This combined with the stunningly realistic and ultra sharp presentation quality from the Sony SRX-R110, situated precisely so as to produce the least amount of geometric distortion on screen while maintaining maximum light transfer results in presentation quality which is very reminiscent of Super Cinerama and far exceeds the capabilities and immersive character of a good Academy Screening or most commercial IMAX theaters.

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

CINERAMAX

10-13-07, 01:04 PM

DefinerOfReality

10-13-07, 02:02 PM

A question on your impressive audio rig:

Are all speakers Snells and all amplifiers McIntosh? Being familiar with both brands I think they should sound exquisite. Are the frequency responses of the front channels the same as the surround speakers? Equal amplification?(Yes?)

What are you using for x-overs? How is your center channel array rigged. I would prefer an SDDS-like steered center approach (this can be accomplished with the next Tact TCS Mk3); that yields a Left Center and Right Center steered mix.

All speakers are Snell THX Music & Cinema Reference designed by Kevin Voecks for George Lucas and Tomlinson Holmann as the first example of a THX Loudspeaker System. I choose these speakers out of all the different varieties available because it has a very narrow vertical dispersion (due to the D'Appolito Configuration of the drivers), frequency response which is accurate to within +/- 0.5 dB Anechoically, and phase response which is within +/- 2 degrees across its entire frequency range.

Originally, this system came outfitted with a Left & Right front tower, single LCR 2800 center channel, two Sub-1800 subwoofers, and two Surround Towers (diffusive). It sounded really great, but lacked the total surrounding immersiveness that is one of my standards. So I sought out another five pairs of towers (with very close serial numbers - meaning they were all made by the same people within a few months of each other and using the same components), an additional pair of LCR 2800 Center channels, and finally an additional 14 Sub-1800 subwoofers, resulting in an 8.8 octagonal surround system where all driver arrays are equidistant from the central listening position. Consequently, there is no need for time delay in any channel, which produces less jitter in the signal and an overall improvement in openness and immediacy of sound.

The surround processing is done by a refined version of the Theta Casablanca III (version d), which can take any source and precisely produce up to twelve different surround mixes, giving the listener the opportunity to pick the best spatial and timbrel algorithm for each recording or track.

The 8.8 surround channels are then sent digitally (currently at double the original sampling frequency: 88.2 kHz or 96 kHz) to 13 Dual Channel Theta Generation VIII (version 3 - modified, and again with sequential serial numbers) digital to analog converters, where the signal is oversampled an additional 8-times: 705.6 kHz or 768 kHz).

I have invited Boz, of TACT Audio, to come up shortly with his line up of digital processors, and if they sound fantastic and function reliably I will employ them, as well, to divide up the frequency responsibilities amongst all the amps. This will lower the overall distortion of the system by over six times, because each amplifier will only be handling 1/6th of the total signal, instead of 100% of it as they are now. I will also have to almost double the number of Generation VIII D/As to do this properly. Or perhaps the TACT Digital units will sound even better than the Theta and I will have to upgrade the entire digital signal path, yet again!

There are 30 - McIntosh MC-2102 Vacuum Tube Amplifiers {with sequential serial numbers starting at 1811 and going to 1840} (currently, my system is specked for 50), 3 - Class A Modified Crown Macro Reference Stereo Amplifiers, and 2 - Mark Levinson No. 33H Monoblock Amps.

All connections, including the electrical, are balanced. So this is the first time, to my knowledge, that every component of a picture and sound system (The Cinema) benefits from "common mode noise rejection" with the sound signal being entirely balanced all the way from the street power to the speaker drivers!

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

CINERAMAX

10-13-07, 02:44 PM

mburnstein

10-13-07, 02:50 PM

Sorry you asked Peter:p? Steve Bruzonsky will call Jeremy's place the Shrine Of Theta!

DefinerOfReality

10-13-07, 02:52 PM

I am not commenting on the audio in which you overkilled every possible nuance and I am sure sounds unbelievable.

My contention is on the subpar video that the SRX portrays in comparison with the latest digital cinema dlp's. Pixel Resolution is not an issue in this size screen. At our ages we can't even resolve the 4k. Where the clues are for Reality Recreation is in precise colorimetry (LCOS wont), and maimum MTF and Ansi contrast. It wont do there either. You also need some kind of contrast enhancing screen either trough the black matrix effect of microperforations, or though a rear screen, or some opticaL FRONT PROJECTION TECHNOLOGY LIKE THE TORUS OR dnp SUPERNOVA.

Ditch the Sony for a Barco (maximum mtf, ansi cr, lens servo memories, aperture plates). Use some kind of ANSI enhancing screen , and then it will be for the CEO of Universal if you want. Right now it's scoring an 83 on the video department. You are being beholding to SONY, that coupled with the MORE IS BEST (in pixels and dollars) is giving you a flawed assumption of superiority. Elegance in the design is paramount, sometimes less is more. ;)

Personally, I have lived with, owned, and calibrated hundreds of professional commercial and videophile projectors including the various 2k Barcos, Christies, JVCs, and over the last 14 months the 4k Sonys.

Certainly, each of these designs has it's various strengths and weaknesses, and I really like the Barco, Christie, and JVC products. But their is something more that can be seen with the Sony 4k projectors in over 96% of most program material.

While the native MTF of a DLP engine is closer to what it ought to be, it is still a clear compromise in spots, requiring a sophisticated external scaler/processor in order to correct these issue. This is no different, really, than the Sony 4k, where the use of such an external processor goes a heck a long way toward accuratizing the image.

This article might be helpful in clarifying some the terminology that is bandied about here on the forum so casually:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/lens-contrast.shtml

And while I love aperture plates, etc. which can improve things visually and measurably when carefully calibrated for each program, in the end it is possible to improve the image much more by scaling sources to fill the panels and applying anamorphic lens correction.

I do not offer perforated screens as they throw away valuable light, significant resolution, and the actual sonic capability of any speaker. And while one can equalize the sound for drivers behind the screen, there is absolutely no way to remove the echo that occurs between the speakers and the screen - which gives that all to familiar flat imaging with the c. 4,000 cycle resonance frequency. I was at the Landmark Sunshine Theater watching the original Ghostbusters film in 35mm (Mono optical track) and the sound was so piercing at that frequency, my ears were fatigued by the time we finished the film - it was truly one of the worst examples of sound for film and this was because they had the speaker set-up six inches behind the screen with no equalization and no acoustic treatment behind the screen.

So while it is certainly possible to create vivid, exciting sound from behind the screen, I see no purpose in decimating picture and sound quality while there are many, many fine alternatives - my Triple Play Center Channel Array for example which is located just below the screen and which utilizes and acoustic wave guide principle to throw the sonic imaging directly up on the screen.

In this arrangement, dialog, music and sound effects that are only on the Center Channel exhibit the same accuracy of timbre, 3-dimensional imaging with tons of layering, and precise unfettered dynamic slam as the other 10 - Snell M & C Towers.

The improvement in sound quality (and image) over a perforated screen is significant and there is no down side.

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

DefinerOfReality

10-13-07, 03:09 PM

Kudos. I am intimately familiar with that McIntosh amp, it's their best sounding when not overdriven. And thanks for the pointer on sequential serial number cherry picking method.

I am having the Barco DP-1500 "cherry picked" among 6 units in the production line based on comparing 6 projector metrics' reports.

I agree. Of all the McIntosh Amps, it's clearly the best sounding and competitive with several other really really expensive tube designs I respect and enjoy. And it can sound so much better by using superior tubes, as well as various vibration damping solutions.

I have been cherry picking since the very beginning when I realized that not ever unit (of anything) is the same. All of my Sony purchases have been hand picked since I bought my first Sony CDP-101 CD player in April of 1982. It is clearly critical if all the speakers, amps, D/As, etc. are going to be used together in a single system. Consequently, every component in The Kipnis Studio Standard is hand matched electrically, sonically, even by weight (mass), so that the entire system from stem to stern is perfectly tuned to match the room acoustics (which should sound like nothing at all!)

Maybe this is why my SRX-R110 has such steller picture measurements and image quality - black level being one of my few caveats. And I have seen over 20 of these SRX projectors out in the field and none have come close to the one I have. Then again, I did have two senior Sony technicians come in over two days and 20 hours of work to completely realign all the optical components and normalize the color shading so that the images produced are consistently the same with an even color temperature from side to center to side as well as top to bottom and a consistent level of illumination everywhere on the screen.

I hope you are actually going to go and view your Barco DP-1500 before purchasing it to make sure it's the best?

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

CINERAMAX

10-13-07, 03:21 PM

Regarding MTF let's not confuse the lens MTF versus the MTF definition by the famed DLP researcher
whose name now escapes me.

And while I love aperture plates, etc. which can improve things visually and measurably when carefully
calibrated for each program, in the end it is possible to improve the image much more by scaling sources
to fill the panels and applying anamorphic lens correction.

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

The anamorphic lens is the anthitesis of a good image, throwing away 30% of the ansi contrast is really a crime.

http://cineramax.com/images/DP2000.jpg

We now have one hdcp projector, next week NEC will introduce their DC offering with Servo Lens Memories.

This is THE ONLY RESPECTABLE WAY OF CHANGING ASPECT RATIO IN THE ULTRA HIGH END.

Otherwise it is incomplete "High End", think about it.

I do not offer perforated screens as they throw away valuable light, significant resolution, and the actual sonic
capability of any speaker. And while one can equalize the sound for drivers behind the screen, there is absolutely
no way to remove the echo that occurs between the speakers and the screen - which gives that all to familiar flat
imaging with the c. 4,000 cycle resonance frequency. I was at the Landmark Sunshine Theater watching the original
Ghostbusters film in 35mm (Mono optical track) and the sound was so piercing at that frequency, my ears were
fatigued by the time we finished the film - it was truly one of the worst examples of sound for film and this was because
they had the speaker set-up six inches behind the screen with no equalization and no acoustic treatment behind the screen.
www.Kipnis-Studios.com

I do not disagree with your statement, except the screen that the Barco Digital Cinema/Post VAR forced my arm to get
is not only totally transparent but is the only flatfield screen that has contrast enhancement built-in (by virtue of the nano
black-matrix) and inmesurable resolution loss. This is the screen going in every new post house install with Barco.

I have confidential metrics of an independent white field comparison of perf screens and this one beat everything else out
there in the post production market. F_ck it! (see for yourself) I wont divulge the source though. ;)

Jeremy you are getting me in trouble already.I will conclude by saying that if the "unamed Post-Production Var source" is
correct and this screen is totally acoustic transparent, and the Tact audio performs as it is supposed to, then a 5 speaker
(3 SDDS-like center channel behind the screen D'appolito array) could really be the ultimate in screen/speaker array, clearly.

Have a nice weekened.

CINERAMAX

10-13-07, 03:41 PM

Sorry you asked Peter:p? Steve Bruzonsky will call Jeremy's place the Shrine Of Theta!

Not so fast! It may soon become the Tact Shrine.:cool:

DefinerOfReality

10-13-07, 03:55 PM

Regarding MTF let's not confuse the lens MTF versus the MTF definition by the famed DLP researcher
whose name now escapes me.

The anamorphic lens is the anthitesis of a good image, throwing away 30% of the ansi contrast is really a crime.

If that were true, I don't think Bill Todd would have built an entire camera and projection format called TODD-AO that remains THE STANDARD for motion pictures other than IMAX. And great director's like David Lean, James Cameron, & Kurosawa used Anamorphy in some of their greatest films because they liked how it looked - with greater in-theater contrast as seen on the retina of the audiences eyes.

I do not disagree with your statement, except the screen that the Barco Digital Cinema/Post VAR forced my arm to get
is not only totally transparent but is the only flatfield screen that has contrast enhancement built-in (by virtue of the nano
black-matrix) and inmesurable resolution loss. This is the screen going in every ne

I have no problem with using better and more technically articulate screen materials. But you cannot expect me to believe that any screen material invented so far is totally sonically transparent!

If my wife's fishnet stockings (which are mostly wide open mesh) can sonically degrade the sound of any speaker or driver array I can do this test with, how can any screen material you are suggesting be sonically invisible while at the same time reflecting back most of the light projected on it?

MTF is MTF. Whether we're evaluating lenses, film, CCDs, or Projectors of any format. It is a much more complicated arrangement than you make it out to be. And from the stand point of your objections (which do not deal with the issues found in that article listed above in my last post) any MTF error found in the projector (and not corrected through 20 hours of modification and calibration) can be dialed in flat as ruler using an external scaler/processor with independent control of RGB channels at 100 points or more.

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

DefinerOfReality

10-13-07, 04:04 PM

"Comparative measurements by TI show that a 1080p SmoothPicture rear-projection display exhibits higher contrast at almost all spatial frequencies (in other words, more detail) than two popular competing LCoS rear-projection displays," writes Koebel. I'm guessing that he's referring here to something experts in imaging science call the "modulation transfer function," or MTF.

My understanding of the MTF — which is admittedly quite limited — is that it quantifies an odd characteristic of human vision: an image appears to be much sharper when it has a higher modulation (that is, when it has a higher contrast ratio). At a lower modulation/contrast ratio, the image appears less sharp — even though, technically, it has the same resolution!

So, I assume, TI's SmoothPicture display gives better contrast ratios than its LCoS competitors, and that higher modulation results in subjectively sharper pictures with subjectively more detail.

From this:

http://whatsonhdtv.blogspot.com/2005/07/eye-on-dlp-no-3.html

Does that definition work better for you?

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

DefinerOfReality

10-13-07, 04:45 PM

From the Sony Business Website:

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/sxrd_new/prodSrxr220.shtml

Description

Sony is proud to introduce an ultra-high resolution projector, the SRX-R220, designed specifically for digital cinema applications. The Silicon X-tal Reflective Display (SXRDTM) imaging devices used in the SRX-R220 projector make it possible to realize its extremely high 4K (4096 H x 2160 V pixels) resolution, which is stipulated by the Digital Cinema Initiatives, LLC (DCI). It also provides a brightness level of SMPTE standard 14 ft-L on a 20-meter (65.6-feet) wide screen and a high contrast ratio of 2000:1.

Features
• Digital-cinema projector that meets SMPTE standard 14 ft-L on a 20-meter wide screen*
• Outstanding resolution of 4K (4096 H x 2160 V pixels)
• Silicon X-tal Reflective Display (SXRD) imaging device
• High contrast ratio of 2000:1
• Xenon lamp provides a highly bright and pure light source
• Optional Image Media Block (LMT-100), Screen Management System (SMS), and Cavity Security System (CSS) are available. These can be incorporated in the SRX-R220 body.
• Range of lenses
• Instant recall of zoom and focus positions for VistaVisionTM and CinemaScopeTM via the Zoom/Focus Memory function
• Lens shift function
• Color Space Conversion function
• Adjustable lamp power in 1% steps
• Keystone Masking function for standard and curved screens
• Inputs:
RGB 4:4:4 on DC-SDI
RGB 4:4:4 on HD-SDI
YPbPr 4:2:2 on DC-SDI
YPbPr 4:2:2 on HD-SDI
DVI
Two LVDS connectors for connection with Image Media Block
• Equipped with an 8-inch exhaust duct

Now what was it that this projector is missing that the Barco DP 1500 or 2000 has or is better at?

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

IAMPADDY

10-13-07, 06:12 PM

First of all congrats to D.O.R for a trully mind blowing system, just ridiculous in every way possible - and brilliant at the same time.

The challenge I guess would be to CINERAMAX, if you where given $2million dollars what Audio, Video and Room design would you develop and employ and why?

We have seen what D.O.R can do, but what would you do (CINERAMAX), answers on a post card (without using previously submitted designs, photos and barco posters).

CINERAMAX

10-13-07, 06:35 PM

I am too busy at the moment doing two systems at a fraction (.2-.27??) of the stated price. I believe my systems to be the prototype systems of tomorrow. Surely (if my HBP permits) the systems should be some sort of standard setter both for the non anamorphic and Torus compensated anamorphic high ansi category. While I envision them to be state of the art in the surround sound department none have as many channels as they could and they rely on the analog crossover of Dynaudio, that to my ear are among the most neutral of all analog x-overs.

With 2 million I would do a 2(.5) story 24 inch wall concrete non parllel reverse trapagon theater with the .5h (half story) orchestra pit for early reflection elimination, a 2.76 AR Torus screen, 16 channel Dynaudio Evidence +Temptation Center/ Teptation surround, 12 channels and 4 subs, front JL audio Gotham subs, rear JL audio Fathoms 113, 12 Mark Levinson NO 53 amps, three 18 inch 6.75 feet deep raisers, 15 Cineak Fortuny seat, 2 Tighpen Rotary subwoofers, D-box, a Torus screen with concave masking, a record breaking modded Barco DP 2000 with 14 bit resolution Torus warping, an Asaca Blue Ray storage system, a Esoteric Master clock, a nagra cd transport, 12 esoteric monofonic d to a's, fat silver cable, the purer the fatter the better:), a 48 mbps C-Band HD satellite feed as one VIP forum member has secured. A very complex web based interactive AMX systems that makes sure that every disc or program is adjusted to MY LIKING remotely from my monitor and control center. That's off the top of my head. That should be over a million.

The ML 53's are $25K each. 12 is $300K. I would consider using the Gryphon Poseidon speaker afor LR and the smaller variant. Also a D'appolito. I think we are agreeing on D'appolito and the value of good amplification.

thebland

10-13-07, 06:37 PM

What's the Sony going for?

CINERAMAX

10-13-07, 06:44 PM

Now what was it that this projector is missing that the Barco DP 1500 or 2000 has or is better at?

6,000 on/off via 73% reductionaperture plate, custom 73% reduction lens iris made in Rochester by the best lens technician in the US.

A thorough light scatter reduction treatment. The optical realignement of the entire light path with the lens cat eye,
the installation of the aperture plate and it's alignment to be performed in a clean room environment at the factory by
the most competent technician under the direct supervision of the CTO.

True native rec 709 not necessitating meddling elctronic processes, and ANSI CR galore over 1,000 by combinig the highest ANSI projector with the highest ansi front projection screen,
the TORUS
Final calibration by the way should use the most expensive Photo Research PR 680 with the 8nm wavelength tolerance.

http://www.photoresearch.com/current/images/pr680/680-corner-shot.jpg

gmgav

10-13-07, 06:54 PM

....While I envision it to be state of the art in the surround sound department none have as many channels as they could and they rely on the analog crossover of Dynaudio that to my ear are among the most neutralof all analog x-overs.Do you the analog X-overs has more flexibility than the digital X-overs?

With 2 million I would do a two story theater, a torus screen, 16 channel Dynaudio Evidence + Teptation surround,12 channels and 4 subs, front JL audio Gotham subs, rear JL audio Fathoms 113, 12 Mark Levinson NO 53 amps, three 16 inch 6.75 feet deep raisers, 15 Cineak seats, a Torus screen with concave masking, a record breaking modded Barco DP 2000 with 14 bit resolution Torus warping, an Asaca Blue Ray storage system, a Esoteric Master clock, a nagra cd transport, 12 esoteric monofonic d to a's, fat silver cable, the purer the fatter the better:), a 48 mbps C-Band HD satellite feed as one VIP forum member has secured. A very complex web based interactive AMX systems that makes sure that every disc or program is adjusted to MY LIKING remotely from my monitor and control center.Esoteric master clock too!!

CINERAMAX

10-13-07, 06:59 PM

I Am Not That Well Versed In That Subject Matter, So Yes.

gmgav

10-13-07, 07:13 PM

I Am Not That Well Versed In That Subject Matter, So Yes.Is the analog XOver a separate unit or part of the speakers?

CINERAMAX

10-13-07, 07:21 PM

It is in the speaker, one speaker was dropped from a crane or something, and was rendered a total loss. The foks ay Dyanudio since carry some of those guts to the trade shows for show and tell on the built quality.The Temptation crossover is masive, and an awesome piece of early 20Th century technology, beautifully crafted.

There is some talk about it here:http://www.lyricaudio.com/revistas%20dynaudio/dynaudiotemptation-theabsolutesound2005.pdf (http://www.lyricaudio.com/revistas%20dynaudio/dynaudiotemptation-theabsolutesound2005.pdf)

CINERAMAX

10-13-07, 07:28 PM

Esoteric master clock too!!

The problem with the master clock concept is that different sources have different frequecy rates 42/48/96/192. You have to manually change the master clock, the da, and the surround processor (TACT TCS MK 3), so a global master clock AMX MACRO Program and Electomechanical equipment modification to servo-execute the macro needs to be developed. There goes another hundred grand in modifications alone.

http://www.teac.co.jp/av/esoteric/g0rb/images/g0rb_front.jpg 1 G-0Rb rubidium master clock $15,000 plus contact closure and optosensor modifications.

http://www.teac.com/esoteric/G-0Rb.html

http://www.teac.co.jp/av/esoteric/p01_d01/images/d01_image_a.jpg 12 of these at $12,500 is $150,000 before contact closure and optosensor modifications.

http://www.teac.com/esoteric/D-01.html

Notice how all the control is push button contact closure. You have to open the unit and solder into the contact closure, then add optical sensors in front of the feedback DISPLAY FOR SECURE OPERATION.

Am I getting expensive enough for you big boys' tastes?

Just to clarify I am handwriting this design in the back of a napkin, I don't consider necessary at all togo to this extense. It is an exrcise into what theoretically should be the best, but the laws of diminishing returns would probably preclude me from recommending such an elaborate audio chain. It is very easy to price a 3 million dollar Surround system with Goldmund equipment. Is it worth it? No.

Rear channels do not need to be of equal dimensions as the front channels UNLESS YOU ARE IN AN OCTOGON. In a rectangular room where the audience seats in the back the rear and sides can be a third of the size of the front ones, as long as there is bass management to redirect those frequencies.

There is no need for fancy D to A converters (much less 12 of them) with todays dsp power in top end processors. While the No 53 promises to be the very best Mark Levinson amp, the lesser ones will do fine for 99.5% of consumers.

DefinerOfReality

10-13-07, 09:52 PM

The problem with the master clock concept is that different sources have different frequecy rates 42/48/96/192. You have to manually change the master clock, the da, and the surround processor (TACT TCS MK 3), so a global master clock AMX MACRO Program and Electomechanical equipment modification to servo-execute the macro needs to be developed. There goes another hundred grand in modifications alone.

http://www.teac.co.jp/av/esoteric/g0rb/images/g0rb_front.jpg 1 G-0Rb rubidium master clock $15,000 plus contact closure and optosensor modifications.

http://www.teac.com/esoteric/G-0Rb.html

http://www.teac.co.jp/av/esoteric/p01_d01/images/d01_image_a.jpg 12 of these at $12,500 is $150,000 before contact closure and optosensor modifications.

http://www.teac.com/esoteric/D-01.html

Notice how all the control is push button contact closure. You have to open the unit and solder into the contact closure, then add optical sensors in front of the feedback DISPLAY FOR SECURE OPERATION.

Am I getting expensive enough for you big boys' tastes?

Expensive enough???

Just a few post ago, you were saying something about:

"While throwing around 2 million dollars is impressive in and of itself. For some what you are suggesting is for people that have more money than brains. I can do a system for under half a million dollars that truly recreates reality and breaks ground in evry video parameter that counts. I am sorry but yours while very very good ain't the best BY A LONG SHOT. So money and creativity amount to second best (am afraid)."

Does this new list of expensive equipment tell me that your previous benchmark was nothing more than a chalk line, or did you really mean that you can "truly recreate(s) reality" for a half million dollars, but for money money you can do better?

Why does it sound like you came up with a bunch of top drawer equipment for this challenge that you are familiar with (but probably do not own personally or have borrowed for 6 - 18 months)?

Two stories of Cinema sounds impressive, but you did not mention specifics about dimensions, room treatment, absolute noise level, or even what the actual visual improvements might be.

I must also point out that getting anyone to modify these $100,000+ projectors is extremely difficult and risky, and getting anyone inside manufacturing to change something once in production is terribly, terribly difficult, if not impossible until the next model appears.

Unless you personally have tried all the equipment you recommend with the exact modifications and setup in a single room or installation as you have suggested, and for some extended period of time (for example, more than a year), I personally would not trust you with $2,000,000.00 or more until you had shown me exactly what I would be purchasing.

And here is the fundamental difference. I am an audiophile / videophile first, then a film, video, and audio producer, and (among many other roles) system and standards designer. But finally, I am the customer! And my standards are nothing short of reality, or perhaps a Star Trek Holodeck - which is the illusion of reality.

When push comes to shove, I have made it my life goal to create the finest picture and sound available at any particular time using only the finest, best performing technologies available. And yet, this is a continuing evolution of technologies and approaches, so it is not just about the equipment and how it measures, but rather about the experience - something I heard nothing about in any of your descriptions about your plans - with $2 million Dollars!

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

gmgav

10-13-07, 10:12 PM

How would you set up a good system then? Lets start how you put together and the components...

CINERAMAX

10-13-07, 10:53 PM

Two stories of Cinema sounds impressive, but you did not mention specifics about dimensions, room treatment, absolute noise level, or even what the actual visual improvements might be.

Whatever the width of screen is the throw distance must be double that, RULE OF THUMB FOR SERVO ZOOM digital cinema lenses. 15 30 works for me.

It would not be THX acoustical blackhole that's for sure it would be a Reverse trapagon, with shark gill side walls (non Parallel) and cantilevered soffit, see picture of a conceptual (but ignore the 800 speakers and the mc 1100 array).

I must also point out that getting anyone to modify these $100,000+ projectors is extremely difficult and risky, and getting anyone inside manufacturing to change something once in production is terribly, terribly difficult, if not impossible until the next model appears.

That is because you are dealing with Japs(anese), these mods at the Barco assembly line are not only viable but possible, also notice how the specs of the new DPI Lighting reference were jokingly verborrated by me at the start of this thread one year ago as possible mods for an HD10K (recently corroborated by DPI's president crediting me for the mods). I find your lack of faith disturbing...in this matter (the mods). It shows how very little you have learned in this matter during your 3 year educational Odyssey.

Unless you personally have tried all the equipment you recommend with the exact modifications and setup in a single room or installation as you have suggested, and for some extended period of time (for example, more than a year), I personally would not trust you with $2,000,000.00 or more until you had shown me exactly what I would be purchasing.

The extended period of time is an excuse, Visual Memory is instantaneous. Except for the sampling of 1 billion to 36 trillion color 3 chip colorimetry on which I have clocked more than 5 thousand hours.

Of course you would not trust me, what makes you think I would try to sell you? You don't have my highly evolved visual sensitivities, with all your dough and all. I am sorry but if there is someone that represents the quest for video reality it is me.

I respect you for your audio but for your video? Continue defending your position and we might be forced to pull a Peckinpah. Tie you and drag you behind a 1927 Buick like General Mapache did to Angel, but this time around instead of the town of Agua Verde it'l be the low end LCD TV and Tivo forums.:D

Seriously I implore you to change your handle because your approaches are the antithesis of VISUAL REALITY, you may recreate film, maybe aproximate CINERAMA, but reality?

Call yourself instead Definer-Of-Film-Like.

You cannot recreate a September afternoon on Trunk Bay WITH THAT PROJECTOR AND SCREEN OF YOURS. It's a total impossibility (NON LINEAR INNACCURATE COLOR that needs a resident calibrator to aproximate rec 709, LOW ANSI, LOW native MTF, poor ON/OFF) Common!!!
http://www.harmonysuite.com/TrunkBay.jpg

And here is the fundamental difference. I am an audiophile / videophile first, then a film, video, and audio producer, and (among many other roles) system and standards designer. But finally, I am the customer! And my standards are nothing short of reality, or perhaps a Star Trek Holodeck - which is the illusion of reality.

When push comes to shove, I have made it my life goal to create the finest picture and sound available at any particular time using only the finest, best performing technologies available.

Then you met me last week, and the real work begins...

... it's back to the drawing boards. Start by studying optical screens and their impact on ANSI and MTF, ditch the SONY and get a Barco, I can arrange for the required mods and calibration.

And yet, this is a continuing evolution of technologies and approaches, so it is not just about the equipment and how it measures, but rather about the experience - something I heard nothing about in any of your descriptions about your plans - with $2 million Dollars!

If the experience is greatly defined by the lights, I find your interest in the Broaway lights completely misplaced. Too Showy.

I do a system on average every two years, one thing you can be sure of is that when they are done , they feel and look like 2 million dollars, that is why the top two residences in Miami called me back from Naples where I lived. These are ultrarefined environments created by top European architects, I espouse a Eurostyle in room design, you espouse a schmaltz of Broadway with Star Trek.

I did Star Trek 17 years ago. Look how much more refined mine was.

http://cineramax.com/images/Bristol%20Tower_jpg.jpg

http://cineramax.com/images/Penthouse_jpg.jpg

Notice the floorplan: Star Trek.

http://cineramax.com/images/Lighting-music-curtains_jpg.jpg

http://cineramax.com/images/Ugos%20Cinema%20Phoebe_jpg.jpg

Design savoir faire (technical and from an environ stanpunkt) is a cornerstone of my work, and the top Architects and builders in Miami know that. Most times less is more.

DefinerOfReality

10-14-07, 12:01 PM

Design savoir faire (technical and from an environ stanpunkt) is a cornerstone of my work, and the top Architects and builders in Miami know that. Most times less is more.

Savoir Faire . . . is EVERY-WAIRE!

http://www.toontracker.com/totaltv/tennesse.htm

Go about halfway down the page!

Just to lighten things up! :p

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

CINERAMAX

10-14-07, 12:24 PM

LOL! Touche!:)

DefinerOfReality

10-14-07, 12:27 PM

According to the Barco Spec Sheet:

http://www.barco.com/digitalcinema/en/products/product_specs.asp?element=3678

The DP Series (1500, 2000, 3000) is rated by them to have a contrast ratio of 2000:1, not 6000:1!

Earlier you wrote:

"6,000 on/off via 73% reductionaperture plate, custom 73% reduction lens iris made in Rochester by the best lens technician in the US.

A thorough light scatter reduction treatment. The optical realignement of the entire light path with the lens cat eye,
the installation of the aperture plate and it's alignment to be performed in a clean room environment at the factory by
the most competent technician under the direct supervision of the CTO.

True native rec 709 not necessitating meddling elctronic processes, and ANSI CR galore over 1,000 by combinig the highest ANSI projector with the highest ansi front projection screen,
the TORUS
Final calibration by the way should use the most expensive Photo Research PR 680 with the 8nm wavelength tolerance."

So which aperture plate and modification to the projector's universal dark matter are you suggesting in order to reach this nice figure - do these products and proceedures really exist?

Maybe I'll bring one in here for an A/B shootout on the same screen against the Sony and the Christie, etc.

Then . . . we shall know!

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

DefinerOfReality

10-14-07, 12:57 PM

I would like to also point out that your "RULE OF THUMB FOR SERVO ZOOM" is way to rigid and unyeilding.

What if a customer wants to have the image be truly enormous, like being at an IMAX where one is truly dwarfed by the screen size?

At the moment, all the 2K projectors available will show pixel structure if one sits closer than 1.5 screen widths away.

That is, unless it also uses an Anamorphic Lens, as was the case recently with both "Ratatouille" and "Pirates of the Caribean III".

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

odyssey

10-14-07, 01:02 PM

MTF has been mentioned several times now, with some very confused comments. In very simple terms, MTF is a precise definition of resolution. Saying that a projector has 1920x1080 resolution is insufficient. The 1920x1080 pixel array can be resolved just barely or it can be sharp, with high contrast. MTF provides this missing information and it’s not something that can be dialed in by technicians in the field or corrected with an external processor, as claimed in this thread. MTF is arguably the single most important image quality parameter.

I will provide a very simplified definition. MTF (modulation transfer function) is the extent to which a system retains contrast at a specific spatial frequency. It’s sometimes called spatial frequency response and this term should be easier to grasp for audiophiles. For example, if the input into a 1920x1080 projector is a horizontal single line on/off pattern with a CR of 100:1 between the white and black lines, and the projected image has 50:1 contrast between the white and black lines, the MTF at a spatial frequency of 1080 lines is 50% or 0.5. Full retention of the contrast, with 100:1 measured at the screen image would be 100% or 1.0 MTF.

MTF, since it defines a type of contrast, is related to ANSI CR and other forms of intra image CR and DLP has a big advantage compared to LCOS (SXRD), CRTs, and typical motion picture release prints. The MTF at the limiting resolution of 2048x1080 or 1920x1080 of the high end DLP projectors is about 0.85. In comparison, the Sony Qualia is about 0.5 and the best CRT units like the G90 are about 0.3. I would expect the Sony 4K SXRD to be about 0.6 at 1920x1080. Of course, if the source resolution is higher than 2048(1920)x1080, the 2K DLP will have an MTF of 0 and the 4K projector will have a clear advantage. If you have sources with higher than 2K real resolution the 4K unit is the best choice. With 2K or lower real resolution sources, the best DLP projectors are better.

This is a good basic tutorial with better scientific definitions of MTF than my simplified version: http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF.html (http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF.html) .

CINERAMAX

10-14-07, 01:10 PM

DefinerOfReality said:

"The DP Series (1500, 2000, 3000) is rated by them to have a contrast ratio of 2000:1, not 6000:1!

Earlier you wrote:

"6,000 on/off via 73% reductionaperture plate, custom 73% reduction lens iris made in Rochester by the best lens technician in the US.

A thorough light scatter reduction treatment. The optical realignement of the entire light path with the lens cat eye,
the installation of the aperture plate and it's alignment to be performed in a clean room environment at the factory by
the most competent technician under the direct supervision of the CTO.

True native rec 709 not necessitating meddling elctronic processes, and ANSI CR galore over 1,000 by combinig the highest ANSI projector with the highest ansi front projection screen,
the TORUS
Final calibration by the way should use the most expensive Photo Research PR 680 with the 8nm wavelength tolerance."

So which aperture plate and modification to the projector's universal dark matter are you suggesting in order to reach this nice figure - do these products and proceedures really exist?

Maybe I'll bring one in here for an A/B shootout on the same screen against the Sony and the Christie, etc.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeremy, As my posts have been indicating these are not typical DCI spec Barco, these are customised for Post Production.

Here is a picture of the Christie's Integrator Rod Assembly, on their latest model but using still previous gen chip (which I am saying requires a heck of a lot of more work to modify due to the circular (vs. ellipsoidal) nature of it's light path; see the big round aperture plate? In Barco and now the Digital Projection Lighting these plates orifices are ellipsoidal and tilted on axis for optimum alignment.

http://cineramax.com/images/Odyssey_Mods.jpg

Forum member Odyssey (whose Optical Engineering credentials makes tit-suckling kids out of the lot of us) pioneered the aperture plate concept when the first Barco digital cinema unit came out working closely with the chief technical officer at Barco. These mods are made in a clean room environment, where they should stay.

Initially restraint was used in only throwing away 65% of the light, as at this point you are well in the territory of diminishing returns. So our Messiah only clocks 3,900 on/off at D65 measured calibrated with the most expensive Photo Research meter set at 8nm wavelength accuracy. He has driven this entire Barco Post Production House mod fad.

65% light path reduction was Barco's official position on maximum light spendthriftiness until CEDIA, where the DPI Lighting reference was introduced using a more agressive "throw the ligth away because we have plenty to start with policy" in the plate, the lens Iris, and their own initiative as newly born contrast superfreaks to scour the light path and treat with antireflective countermeasures. The lighting reference delivers 5,000 on/off at D65, and boy does it show. It sank the entire Runco (christie) Flagship xenon fleet to the ocean floor.

At present the DP 2000,1500 do not have access to the plate, like depicted above. Because of Helene, and because of the DPI Reference Lighting's 5,000 to 1 newly achieved spec, Belgium JUST entered the "Digital Cinema Mods on/off contrast pissing competition".

"Surely (with a French accent) if those Brits can make 5,000 to 1 with the 1080p chip, we the greatest projection company on earth can achieve 6,000 to 1 using the latest higher efficiency Digital Cinema Chip". A special engine is being prepared to do just that.

The DP1500/2000 offers this advantage, coupled with Zoom servo lensing, and a 8 bit to 14 bit dual DVI hdcp compliant Gennum based superscaler that converts 1080p to digital cinema dual link format. NEC may show a competitive offering next week, that could end up as a Digital Projection unit.

http://cineramax.com/images/ACS-2048.jpg

The latest Christie has a beautiful anamorphic lens turret, but anamorphics are old school; we need to turn our backs to it and high tail it as fast as possible. 30% ansi contrast eats into the core reality recreation factor of 3 chip dlp. That leaves the Barco as the sole champion for high end home theater, as the servo lens can not be retrofitted on the Lighting Reference.

We can't jump into servo zoom lenses head first without asserting that the correct throw distance conditions exist. In Helene for example all drawings indicated a 29' TD, yet when field conditions were measured post construction (in this retrofit remodel) TD is around 27'4". 8" inches short of the ideal focal range (28' for a 171 wide 2.40ar). I am pushing the screen back 2" (to 24" stage depth) and pulling the projector back 6". MAXIM: in a servo zoom environment TD range precision is critical.

http://cineramax.com/images/helene_side_elevation.jpg

http://cineramax.com/images/BarcoNestLeft.jpgsimulated

CINERAMAX

10-14-07, 01:48 PM

I would like to also point out that your "RULE OF THUMB FOR SERVO ZOOM" is way to rigid and unyeilding.

What if a customer wants to have the image be truly enormous, like being at an IMAX where one is truly dwarfed by the screen size?

That is where your powers of persuasion come in with your media moguls.

When my media mogul told me that everyone had recommended a particular room due to it's size, and that large theaters were difficult to execute, I laughed and told him that either he "knocks the wall" (nearly doubling the size of the room ) or perhaps he should consider using one of these wimpy custom installation companies, because I was not going to be a party to such minuscule cinema space.

In a week the wall was gone. See comparisons...

At the moment, all the 2K projectors available will show pixel structure if one sits closer than 1.5 screen widths away.

That is, unless it also uses an Anamorphic Lens, as was the case recently with both "Ratatouille" and "Pirates of the Caribean III".

Don't worry about the pixels, they are truly hard to see from the front row, besides even if you have 20/15 vision, and you are seating at .85 screen height, the color is so organic the eye sees right past the pixels.

Those two flicks seemed great to you on digital cinema dlp, because you were seing 600 ansi contrast, what you see at home. You don't know the massive loss experienced when these Isco 3 lens slide in front of a 900+ ansi contrast image, it is a serious mother-f_cking loss OF REALITY RECREATION CUES!

gmgav

10-14-07, 02:19 PM

Cineramax have shown us the detail implementations of a typical HT project, D.O.R. where is your detail implementation?? no need to be so extremely detail, but post something similar to Helene....

W.Mayer

10-14-07, 02:46 PM

peter
i hear from barco that the new cinema units that are based on the
new 098" cinema dmd will have not the possibility to change apature plates
anymore.

about the lost in ansi cr. with a isco 3.
barco make a very easy way so far i understand when
i talk with barco.
the zoom the picture till it fit to the 2.35 format.
most pr. can do that already it just need enough zoom ratio.
using a isco 3 have pro and cons but i use it.

both things was told to me by phone from
the chief technical officer at barco.

jeremy
i can see pixels at 1.1 times the picture wide with my 1920x1080 3 chip
dlp.
i am very sensitiv to see pixels and my eye are very good.
i will post later a chart where you can see from how many times the screen
you can see how much pixels but i need someone that can translate this file
to post it here.
but i can tell aready above 1.5 to latest 1.7 time the screen
wide it make no sense
to have more than 2k resolution because our eye cant see it anymore.
a average human eye can see 1 arc minute.
i found out by tests that the no that is in this chart are more or lees true.
i can see about 15% more pixels than the chart say
some others less than that.

CINERAMAX

10-14-07, 02:54 PM

You are correct, at present there is no access. We found out when a forum member from Singapore went to Barco training in late July. After CEDIA I got news of a new light engine module coming with the removable plate, I was told it will take 5-10 minutes to swap the engine modules.

When did you have this conversation?

The servo lens memory module is separate from the lens and costs $5K.

Ohlson

10-14-07, 02:56 PM

Definer ......
Has Sony given any hints about increasing the contrast of 4k sxrd. Lcos in general has taken big steps in on/off lately as exempliified by d-ila from JVC.

CINERMAX
When do you expect TI to show 4k dlp for the first time?

CINERAMAX

10-14-07, 03:16 PM

2.5 years on the inside 5 on the outside.

W.Mayer

10-14-07, 03:19 PM

about 3-4 weeks ago.

here is the resolution chart.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/screenshot_0110.jpg

as alread told i can see more than this chart shows.
i have to check my records but i think it was about 15-20% more.

robert do you remember?

gmgav

10-14-07, 03:21 PM

peter
i hear from barco that the new cinema units that are based on the new 0.98" cinema dmd will have not the possibility to change apature plates anymore.....both things was told to me by phone from the chief technical officer at barco.May be they wouldn't do it for you, because you don't sell them. Any company will do it if you are able to sell >300 per year.

CINERAMAX

10-14-07, 03:28 PM

about 3-4 weeks ago.

here is the resolution chart.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/screenshot_0110.jpg

Gute Karte

3-4 weeks ago sounds about the time The american Digital Cinema exec went to Belgium and it was decided to make a new engine version. I will know for sure next (this) week.

robena

10-14-07, 03:34 PM

as alread told i can see more than this chart shows.
i have to check my records but i think it was about 15-20% more.

robert do you remember?

Actually, it's not rare, especially when fully corrected with glasses, for people to have 30/20 vision.

If I remember well, you were not too far at something like 27/20.

I would also like to say that I don't think that going to that limit, even at 30/20, would be enough.

At 1.6 times my screen width, with the best BR material which must be close to true 1080p, I am very far from having the sensation that I'm looking through a window.

BR and 2k 3DLPs look very good, but compared to, well, reality, it just looks fuzzy with very small details.

Many people have a tendency to feel when they have a very rare or expensive or just very new item (in any domain) that it can't be better. It's a normal WOW reaction, but it's rarely true.

gmgav

10-14-07, 03:35 PM

3-4 weeks ago sounds about the time The american Digital Cinema exec went to Belgium and it was decided to make a new engine version. I will know for sure next (this) week.At ShowEast, you probably get some solid answer

DefinerOfReality

10-14-07, 04:10 PM

Actually, it's not rare, especially when fully corrected with glasses, for people to have 30/20 vision.

If I remember well, you were not too far at something like 27/20.

I would also like to say that I don't think that going to that limit, even at 30/20, would be enough.

At 1.6 times my screen width, with the best BR material which must be close to true 1080p, I am very far from having the sensation that I'm looking through a window.

BR and 2k 3DLPs look very good, but compared to, well, reality, it just looks fuzzy with very small details.

Many people have a tendency to feel when they have a very rare or expensive or just very new item (in any domain) that it can't be better. It's a normal WOW reaction, but it's rarely true.

I couldn't agree more.

But true 4k material projected on a 4k projector gets us that much closer.

There is no doubt in my mind that eventually we will have an 8k format, followed by a 16k, and so on. And it will be another jump in presentation quality, but still far from the full capability of human vision.

Still, being able to add superbly executed 3D to any of these resolutions can only increase the illusion that we are seeing "through" the image, rather than at it!

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

W.Mayer

10-14-07, 04:35 PM

thats why my dream is to have 3d in 4k.
8 mil. pixels or almost 10mil pixels from the new 4k jvc
is 4 or almost 5 times the 2k res.

when i project the 3d pictures i have "just one side" at 1920X1080
and you take the polarizer glasses away you miss resolution not "only"
the 3d effect!
the reason is the both half pictures from right or left are not 100% the same
and the brain creates beside the 3d more resolution.
the 3d 2k picture looks no anymore like a 1920x1080 it looks like a
2560X1440 or higher detailwise.:)

"""BR and 2k 3DLPs look very good, but compared to, well, reality, it just looks fuzzy with very small details.""""

robert may you should visit me as we already talke and see my 3d pictures.
many people when saw it first time are shocked how good the look.
they most tell me "its like you look outside a window"
reason is my good canon 3d camera.
today i made the first pictures in 3 d with my new very little nikon 3d camera
and i compare it with the pictures i made with the big monster canon 3d.
its night and day and both have a 3d image in 1920x1080.

as far as i know you are very pleased with your christie dlp or?

i may post 2 pictures that show both 3d cameras.

robena

10-14-07, 04:57 PM

as far as i know you are very pleased with your christie dlp or?

Yes, it's by far the best projector I ever saw.

The Sony 4K has a smoother image than the Christie, but it looks flat and really lacks punch in comparison.

It shows however that DLPs are not perfect, and that there is a lot of room for improvement on both technologies.

DefinerOfReality

10-14-07, 05:12 PM

Yes, it's by far the best projector I ever saw.

The Sony 4K has a smoother image than the Christie, but it looks flat and really lacks punch in comparison.

It shows however that DLPs are not perfect, and that there is a lot of room for improvement on both technologies.

Calibration goes a long way to improving things (SRX-R or DLP), particularly with a very articulate processor added to clean up the nonlinearities and restore the punch that the internal scaler in the SRX Series takes away. But it is rare to see any of these projectors REALLY set-up correctly and to their full potencial.

I suspect that most people have never seen what these engines can really do, even industry insiders. I certainly didn't until I got them over here for a long long look and a tweak.

Now, according to CINERAMAX, we have a whole other level of technical improvements soon to be available from Barco and Christie. It's only a matter of time before these migrate to JVC and Sony.

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

Ohlson

10-14-07, 05:27 PM

DefinerOfReality

10-14-07, 05:35 PM

May be they wouldn't do it for you, because you don't sell them. Any company will do it if you are able to sell >300 per year.

Sony Won't!

JVC Doesn't.

And it sounded like CINERAMAX was going to be using a specially commissioned lens with integral iris in addition to the mods on the Barco?

Do you have an in with these companies that allows you to order in quantity and get special features?

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

DefinerOfReality

10-14-07, 05:41 PM

Is any big news expected from Showeast tomorrow?

Definer...
I expect sxrd and d-ila to follow their own route of progress. In sxrd we could hope for a couple of things.
1 increased native contrast 3000-5000:1?
2 120Hz capable to catch the 3D trend?
3 implement the advanced convergence control now launching in vw200?

1. Yes - No! That's roughly 4000:1 which is the panel/optics limit. But they may not annouce it yet, even though it is in production.

2. The SRX engine runs at 240 Hz internally, and refreshes at 120 Hz. Unfortunately, they have not written any software that allows one to input at that frequency, and then be able to do 3D from one projector. Idiots!

3. Please detail this new Sony VW200 convergence control. I am not up to speed on this variation.

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

W.Mayer

10-14-07, 05:46 PM

here is the 3d camera picture thanks to one very helpful guy
i can post it:)

the big one canon 5d have 4368x2912 res.that almost 13 mil pixel
per eye(side)
the small nikon coolpix p 5000 have 3648x2432 10 mil. pixels each.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/101_0259.JPG

the big and heavy canon make pictures in a quality no
24x36mm slide 3d camera can do.
its incredible the quality.
the nikon makes good pictures but its not far as good as the
big canon.
chip size is everything:)

DefinerOfReality

10-14-07, 06:08 PM

here is the 3d camera picture thanks to one very helpful guy
i can post it:)

the big one canon 5d have 4368x2912 res.that almost 13 mil pixel
per eye(side)
the small nikon coolpix p 5000 have 3648x2432 10 mil. pixels each.

the big and heavy canon make pictures in a quality no
24x36mm slide 3d camera can do.
its incredible the quality.
the nikon makes good pictures but its not far as good as the
big canon.
chip size is everything:)

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And I bet the color fidelity through the Christie projectors is absolutely breathtaking!

And amazingly sharp, as well.

I've got to come see this :eek::D:eek::D

CINERAMAX

10-14-07, 09:23 PM

Sony Won't!
Do you have an in with these companies that allows you to order in quantity and get special features?

I don't, I am not a dealer, (maybe I have a little pull because of chronicling here and Barco reads, like DPI, and Runco) but the Barco VAR has tremendous pull
with Barco cause they do the all the post houses in LA so they have top pecking order over even say the dealer in China that sold 800 projectors to a theater chain there.

I got word that I will know tomorrow about the final decision. It could be a plate or just a factory built 5-6k unit. "shivering with anticip-ation."

gmgav

10-14-07, 09:45 PM

I don't, I am not a dealer, (maybe I have a little pull because of chronicling here and Barco reads, like DPI, and Runco) but the Barco VAR has tremendous pull
with Barco cause they do the all the post houses in LA so they have top pecking order over even say the dealer in China that sold 800 projectors to a theater chain there.

I got word that I will know tomorrow about the final decision. It could be a plate or just a factory built 5-6k unit. "shivering with anticip-ation."Barco will do it for sure, especially for them....they really know what they are doing and they sells tons of them.

Ohlson

10-15-07, 10:37 AM

Definer...
1 JVC has taken d-ila native panel contrast from 5000:1 / 2000:1 projector contrast to 40000:1 / 30000:1. Sony has quoted 4000:1 all along for the panels. I am hoping they can do better. They are with the latest home theater projectors.

2 It is in Sony´s best interest to write software supporting 120Hz for 3D. A 60Hz refresh for 3D should be ok since sxrd is not flashing the picture like a crt does. Sony please wake up to 3D!

3 Read the review of vw60 in WSR by Greg Rogers. Red and blue can be corrected by 0.1 pixel increments in h+v with a range of +-2. This is a global adjustment. Greg explains the electronic pronessing involved. Vw200 takes this a step further by allowing adjustments like this in 100+ zones. This kind of convergence control in addition to good physical aligment serves to assure a better looking image.

donaldk

10-15-07, 06:58 PM

Sofar Sony has been trying to finally sell some projectors, so 2 projectors for 3D;-). They have been signing up a number of simulation vendors for 3d systems using the Cine Alta projectors, in the past year.

W.Mayer

10-16-07, 12:27 PM

KBK

10-16-07, 12:36 PM

If you don't feel as if you are looking through a window at solidly done and filmed work converted to a digital 1080P DVD, then the issue is the display device's Instantaneous CR, (if your vision and the room set-up support the possibility) is my tack on this one. I've done the work on the sources, delivery systems, and the PJ optical blocks and electronics. This is a fully informed opinion-based on personal observation and work.

To this day, CRT is still superior at creating this effect. That is, a brutally modified CRT projector. This is not available in the stock items of either technology, be it digital or CRT.

I've managed to get to the point that the detail is in there, up on the screen, and had to squint and put my hand up to block the brighter part of the image, to see the obscured detail in the darker areas, just like we have to do in real life, outside, on a bright day. The contrast and fine color deliniation was just absurd.

I was achieving this 6-7 years ago. I was beyond the limits of the human eye with the projector work, in most CR considerations. And I've got dammed fine vision. No glasses, 20-20, with a excellent capacity for darker scenes. I've been wearing Serengeti sunglasses all year around during daylight, since the day they were first released. I have always protected my night vision capacities, since I was a teen.

W.Mayer

10-16-07, 12:48 PM

peter
seams i can write in future in german language here or a least for you:)

any news from show east?

KBK

10-16-07, 02:13 PM

Wolfgang:

Are the JVC and the Sony units the only 4k projection units available at this time?

The place the chosen projector is going into...is quite high level. with a continual passage of top end clients from all aspects of the industry passing through the room on a daily basis, so the PJ will be going directly into the place where the target market actually is. This means that upgrading projectors in the future is virtually automatic as any given manufacturer would love to have their projector in this location. All of the people to be paraded by the projector will be the kind of people who influence buying decisions at the top of the market-and down. (for this given country) Imagine having the newest Ferarri in a location where capable and desirous buyers with the means to purchase are paraded by it on a daily basis. And, to add, the PJ will, of course be paid for, so it is not a case of expensive advertising for the given projector manufacturer.

Under all of that...once again.. in your estimation.. are the JVC and the Sony the only 4K projectors on the immediate horizon?

W.Mayer

10-16-07, 02:42 PM

ken
i hear a rumour that a europe compay are may also will come with
lcos 4k pr.
the red 4k camera company is may involved in that i was told.

but beside this "may be" for sure at the moment only the sony 4k
available at this time.

i hear from jcv that the hope to release there new 4k pr. in the first half
2008 but thats not sure.

Ohlson

10-16-07, 05:31 PM

DefinerOfReality

10-16-07, 05:34 PM

No, it's definitely not enough light output! :mad:

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

robena

10-16-07, 05:57 PM

No, it's definitely not enough light output! :mad:
www.Kipnis-Studios.com

Yes, I agree, we need twice that amount.

W.Mayer

10-16-07, 06:11 PM

JVC seems to be more focused on simulation and visualization. 3500 ANSI lumen is not a cinema projector.

yes mattias thats right the target market for this 4k jvc pr.is
simulations and not cinema.
thats why hdcp is also not for sure inside!

3500 lumes is fine for my 7m screen in 2d but i little bit less for my 3d system.
my silver 3d screen is only 3 m but i
get used to the almost 7000 lumens
my christie have.
but 10000:1 on off its a huge improvment over the sony 4k with about 2000:1
and also a big improvment over my christie with 2700:1 but on the other side
the dlp have a very high ansi cr. and other advantages.

seams we will never get a 100% perfect pr.

ciputra

10-16-07, 06:56 PM

well it ain't 4K, but Barco starting to manufacture LCOS basedprojection initial two models one with 2048x1536 resolution and another hdtv resolution 1920x1080. With even higher resoluion models coming up. Though for now it's for simulation market.
http://www.armedforces-int.com/images/companies/1016/barcosimpic1.jpg
http://www.armedforces-int.com/categories/high-resolution-simulation-projector/barco-sets-pace-for-high-resolution-high-speed-motion-visualization-with-new-simulation-lcos-projector.asp

CINERAMAX

10-16-07, 08:16 PM

Speaking of Barco it is official: They WILL BUILD a high contrast POST HOUSE DP 1500/2000 unit; not with aperture plate but by tightening the optical path in the integrator rod assembly in their clean room. Mind you it won't be 5k to 1 maybe 3:200 to 1. An additional 300 to 1 can be achieved with the high contrast lens mod, but they are not committing to that.

CINERAMAX

10-16-07, 08:25 PM

peter
i hear from barco that the new cinema units that are based on the
new 098" cinema dmd will have not the possibility to change apature plates
anymore.

WG see post above.

odyssey

10-16-07, 08:45 PM

Peter,

Are the CR estimates at DC white or D65?

CINERAMAX

10-16-07, 09:30 PM

Art Sonneborn

10-17-07, 11:12 AM

seams we will never get a 100% perfect pr.

If we did what would we talk about ?;):D

Art

DefinerOfReality

10-18-07, 01:26 PM

W.Mayer
Any news from the jungle drum about Panorama labs that has declared their ambition to finish a 4k digital cinema prototyp using the principle of magneto photonic crystals? This technology is 1000 times faster than dlp!!

Sony is interested in digital cinema. JVC seems to be more focused on simulation and visualization. 3500 ANSI lumen is not a cinema projector.

Mattias -

Weren't you very interested in using controlled lasers as a projection source?

Look at this:

http://www.es.com/products/digital_theater/digistar3-laser.asp

I wonder how long it will take before it's truly high-end in picture quality?

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

CINERAMAX

10-18-07, 06:09 PM

Back from Showeast, 3-D was the central motiff. The running joke of the show was the 2 ton dual stack srx at Pleasure Island, reportedly the presentation was so poor that it was aborted prematurelly. Meanwhile I came back from Barco with a big smile. Everything is possible for the right price.

W.Mayer

10-19-07, 06:38 AM

seams sony till today cant do a good demo with the 4k unit
see my post at page 19.

i saw the 4k several times and beside a good imax presentation
"that sony not do" mostly the 4k looks bad.

i know because i have the unit in my home for more than a week that
the pr. is not that bad.
this is more or less normaly for many pr. manufacturer and therefore
i test always the pr. at home.

peter
beside that do you have any other news form showeast?
i heare that may chrisitie show there new 0,98" cinema dlp the first time?
any 4k dlp rumour?

Art Sonneborn

10-19-07, 07:45 AM

One has to wonder why they bother. These shows (perhaps three or four in a year) are their primary opportunities to show their stuff and, like CEDIA ,often they aren't done well.:confused:

Art

Ohlson

10-19-07, 09:09 AM

Perhaps the budgeted time for the people setting things up is too short by management. Let the engineers have the time they need.

CINERMAX
Any presence by Panorama entertainment systems PES, a part of Panorama labs.

gmgav

10-19-07, 11:16 AM

........Any presence by Panorama entertainment systems PES, a part of Panorama labs.It's very complicated inner working, very much like LCD.....

gmgav

10-19-07, 11:20 AM

Last time I checked, Christie do not make the 2K 0.98" DLP pj.... Too much changes internally.

CINERAMAX

10-19-07, 12:28 PM

No one showed a .98 that I know besides B. .98 is not necessarily more efficient though than the larger chip. Theoretically the larger chip with a new engine design should be better as in the case of Barco, the DP 1500 and 2000 have a better light engine that is why they are competitive with the older D cine models, D-Apertures have been abandoned in favour of O apertures throught the light path, no more cat's eye for the new Barco models. The O aperture improves brightness white field and color uniformity by 15%.

It is possible today to design better projectors using Computer modeling software like ZEMAX.com. Barco is looking at our request for a "Regent Videophile" maximum contrast unit, it would not be good for mastering D-Cine but it would be great for mastering HD-DVD,BR, and National HDTV Feeds.

The Barco's are modifiable but the prices will increase proportionately to the contrast ratio. They are interested in selling 20,000 projectors to the cinema chains, it is expensive for them to pull engineering resources to maximise contrast. I did accomplish a commitment to a post production level high contrast. Note: because post houses not only transfer for the home market but for digital cinema as well they are beholding to DCI standards. A departure in contrast past the 3:000 to 1 is of no interest in a postproduction environment.

That leaves the burden on us. My next task is to have them design a high contrast lens (of +300-1cr @ D65 [not native white] and clocked with the ultraexpensive PR-80 set to 8nm wavelength [for real accurate primaries] and not the 5nm wavelength used in the top end current spectrum radiometers.

Like Odyssey has stated before: "There are no inexpensive ways of calibrating Cinema DLP" (even though these units have the 12 bit accurate TI -P7 color auto calibration software).

The HC lens design, taking into consideration CIH screens of 12-21 feet wide, with near unity gain, and a maximum of 25 ft lamberts, may have a design/development cost of 10-15k, but this can be divided among several projectors. To really get maximum contrast (like DPI has accomplished with the Lighting Ref.) it will take 2 months of engineering time, then we could see a "DP1500 - Cineramax" model with 5300-1 cr @D65 w/8nm wavelength accuracy, for which I was told I would get exclusive East Coast US Home Cinema distribution rights, if it happens. :)

CINERAMAX

10-19-07, 12:31 PM

I just went to the show for a few hours and was with Barco, I did see the SRX 2-d the image was competent but certainly lacking in ANSI. It is film-like, period. Certainly does not have the injection of reality that DLP has. That is why I think it is NOT SUITABLE FOR 3-D, where DLP grabs you by the throat.

donaldk

10-19-07, 10:51 PM

Same LCoS panels as the SEOS Zorro isn't it?

donaldk

10-19-07, 11:05 PM

i saw in jan. 07 at a show a 3d 4ksony pr. demo with computer content.
they use not the linear polarizer they use the other circular polarizer
and therefore the image that have a lot of gost images.

its a rear pr. screen they use for this demo and the strange thing is
this screen is opposite a normaly 2d 4k pr.demo that run at the same
time.:confused:

you know what is the result?

all the light from both 4k pr. (20000 ansi lumen!!!)that they
use for 3d demo are going to the
2d screen and kill the hole cr. that the 4k 2k demo have.
therefore the single 4k picture looks very very bad.
my guess it if you measure it you will not found not more than
50 or max 100:1 on off cr.

i was shocked how they (we are talk about professionals!!!)
can do such a mistake.
it was so easy to avoid it they just need to turn 90° the 3d demo or better 180°
Guess we saw the same demo, the 3D looked awfull. Not a good showing from the newly signed up 3D integrator/system builder from Germany. The other 3D demo's (passive from Philips and LG) also gave me a severe headache. Though I considered the regular 4K showing to be the best of the big screens on show. Sanyo 10K lcd fed analog RGB, was simply looking, well flushed would be the word. The Christie guys were tinkering to get HD out of the thing, Barco didn't even indicate what projector they were showing, but it didn't look nearly as good as the Sony, no-one present was willing to provide info, as they were talking to the Kinoton guys;-). Guess the higher on-off contrast and the rich colours on the Sony made up for the lacking ansi contrast you describe.

Ohlson

10-20-07, 07:31 AM

donaldk
So 4k content with the 4k Sony looks great. Perhaps they can transfer the 120Hz currently entering the consumer sxrd products to 4k sxrd to better handle 3D.
The latest Zorro projector is 2048x1536 so I do not from whom they license their lcos panels. SEOS say the use of the shelf panels freely available. I doubt the panels come from Sony but I could be wrong.
Do you guys from whom Barco sources their lcos panels for the SIM 7 platform? The high contrast version claims 10000:1.

CINERAMAX

10-20-07, 11:43 AM

I saw a Seattle Airport Jumbo Jet landing flight simulation demo @CEDIA with the JVC, it was very good except an ocassional image jerk here and there. What strikes you the most dramatic are the tiny little nano-sized runway lights are plenty bright from approach "miles away", it almost looked like baby leds popping through the screen. The nightime looked excellent, the daytime was not so convincing and the way the sky is rendered could be simulating what looks like poor white field uniformity (an old LCOS issue).

donaldk

10-21-07, 09:09 PM

Matthias, I have seen the source for the Zorro panels mentioned many times, but can't think of it right now, believe I read Barco uses the same manufacturer, at least the mentioned resolution is the same, QXGA.

Just checked, Gemidis, is the name that kept popping up. I remember, it is a private venture based on University of Gent (Flanders/Belgium) research, Gemidis stands for Gent microdisplays. Have a look there should be some info here: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c2coff=1&safe=off&q=barco+lcos+gemidis&btnG=Search

You seem much better versed in the technical/engineering aspects than I, so check this phd thesis describing the research that started back in 1994 tfcg.elis.ugent.be/publi/docvdsteen/docvdsteen.pdf.

There aren't many LCoS panel manufacturers around anymore, with the mass market, disappearing, i.e. rearpro tv's, except for Sony and JVC.

Perhaps Wolfgang remembers what they were showing at ISE 2007, whether it was 4K content or just regular HD, fed to the build in scaler. However, I seem to remember the tech responsible for the 4K line, mentioning it was only 2K, whithout using the server required to feed the four channels used with 4K content.

At ISE 2005 I saw the prototype demo, showing both 2K/HD and 4K material. Sourced from 35mm and 65mm film as well as stills from an 8 Mpixel digital photocamera, downsampled to 4K. There was some extremely noticible motion judder on a right to left panning rider in the old 65mm clip, they said 'well it is still film' when I asked if there was any lag in the projector, quoting a 5 ms max response time for the srx-110 panel.

ciputra

10-22-07, 04:07 AM

Considering that Gent is very very close to Barco's hq in kuurne, yes it is gemidis panel that is being use for the sim7

donaldk

10-22-07, 03:36 PM

Indeed, as mentioned in one of my replies above. Barco is part of the develoment consortium. They also share a backer in GIMV, the Flemish investment fund controlled by a group of municipalities, and set-up to to enhance the Flemish economy. Though Barco was split up and the parts listed a few years ago, so they are past the GIMV stage;-).

DefinerOfReality

10-22-07, 04:26 PM

At ISE 2005 I saw the prototype demo, showing both 2K/HD and 4K material. Sourced from 35mm and 65mm film as well as stills from an 8 Mpixel digital photocamera, downsampled to 4K.

I think that might be upsampled to 4k, as the Sony SRX series boasts a total of 8,847,360 pixels, which is 8.85 Megapixels. :p

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

DefinerOfReality

10-22-07, 04:33 PM

Has anyone actually seen this 3D demo system?

http://www.abs-tech.com/malas/06052316.html

It looks promising!

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

W.Mayer

10-22-07, 06:02 PM

Perhaps Wolfgang remembers what they were showing at ISE 2007, whether it was 4K content or just regular HD, fed to the build in scaler. However, I seem to remember the tech responsible for the 4K line, mentioning it was only 2K, whithout using the server required to feed the four channels used with 4K content

yes i am sure that they feed at ISE 2007 2k only because
all the rooms have the same signal if i remember it right.
the rooms have christie barco 2k dlps and a 2k lcd projector
but can not remember what company.

i am not sure was ist 05 or 06 at the ISE i saw
some 2k content and spider man in 4k with the sony 4k.
i know it because the guy from sony how did the demo of this unit
invited me to the pr. room and i can see the pr. the first time
and how they feed the signals.

donaldk

10-23-07, 03:17 PM

It was the Sanyo 10K LCD, fed using analog rgb. Didn't notice they were using the same material/feed. When I was at the Christie curtained off section they were tinkering with the machine trying to get it show 2k (or HD?) instead of the SXGA+ they had it running at when I dropped by. They were demoing Spiderman and some other stuff at ISE 2005 in the Rai Forum, the large conference room. ISE 2006 was in Brussels. Ah, we were just bold enough to go up to the booth (boy it sure was hot in there). Still should have the card for the development engineer, he was also doing the demoing at ISE2007. There was a German gentleman who joined me in entering the booth, commenting on limited contrast in the red surfaces that were part of the demo loop, and the Sony engineer admitting that they were still a bit short on the targeted 1800:1 contrast ration. Of course it had gone by too fast for me to have noticed;-).

donaldk

10-23-07, 03:21 PM

I think that might be upsampled to 4k, as the Sony SRX series boasts a total of 8,847,360 pixels, which is 8.85 Megapixels. :p

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

Yeah that should teach me to either add quotation marks or not just simply repeat what Sony was telling us at the time;-).

Actually they might have been using 2160P only. Only recently people have starting to use 4K to mean something else than Quad HD, so we might get the same confusion/distinction as previously seen between 2K and HD.

The article you linked says the SRX (DVI input) version only uses 3840 x 2160 of the 4096 x 2160 panels. Tracedthe release on the 3D demo at ISE, and indeed the SRX was used and only features QHDTV resolution. http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/ShowContent.action?site=biz_en_GB&contentId=1169909151452

The poor 3D demo I commented on earlier was at ISE 2007, by Sony and Holovis. Other companies are listed for the Max Planck demo.

fastl

10-23-07, 09:53 PM

Jeremy

Basically curious. What are you using for de-interlacing and scaling? You didn't post any shots of your processing rack(s).

DefinerOfReality

10-23-07, 11:55 PM

So, no interest in the laser projection system I mentioned in post# 393?

http://www.es.com/products/digital_t...tar3-laser.asp

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studio.com

DefinerOfReality

10-24-07, 12:07 AM

Yeah that should teach me to either add quotation marks or not just simply repeat what Sony was telling us at the time;-).

Actually they might have been using 2160P only. Only recently people have starting to use 4K to mean something else than Quad HD, so we might get the same confusion/distinction as previously seen between 2K and HD.

The article you linked says the SRX (DVI input) version only uses 3840 x 2160 of the 4096 x 2160 panels. Tracedthe release on the 3D demo at ISE, and indeed the SRX was used and only features QHDTV resolution. http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/ShowContent.action?site=biz_en_GB&contentId=1169909151452

The poor 3D demo I commented on earlier was at ISE 2007, by Sony and Holovis. Other companies are listed for the Max Planck demo.

The Sony SRX-R series allows the DVI Board to accept 1920 x 1080 or 2048 x 1080 @ 24P. However, the SRX-S Series can accommodate those resolutions also at 30P, 50P, & 60P.

After this, it internally double scales so you wind up getting 3840 x 2160P and 4096 x 2160P.

Currently, I am testing the latest Lumigen Scaler, again outputting those resolutions listed above at 24P. (which is NOT 24sF).

My ultimate goal is to commission a scaler from Snell & Wilcox or Terranax that will output 4096 x 2160P directly to the projector, allowing for the usual improvement in temporal reproduction, even though there really isn't any additional information; its just tweaked to make what's there stand out better.

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

gmgav

10-24-07, 02:17 AM

.......My ultimate goal is to commission a scaler from Snell & Wilcox or Terranax that will output 4096 x 2160 directly to the projector, allowing for the usual improvement in temporal reproduction, even though there really isn't any additional information; its just tweaked to make what's there stand out better.Please do tell me if they'll do it, 'cause I 've tried asking them to upscale to 1080P 60Hz....

DefinerOfReality

10-24-07, 02:35 AM

Please do tell me if they'll do it, 'cause I 've tried asking them to upscale to 1080P 60Hz....

How much are you willing to spend in order to create the best possible image?

Personally? I'm a bit freightened!!!

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studios.com

donaldk

10-24-07, 06:41 PM

So, no interest in the laser projection system I mentioned in post# 393?

http://www.es.com/products/digital_t...tar3-laser.asp

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studio.com
Ah the nice ESLP. Never seen it in action, it is a Grating Light Valve set-up. Seems the closest place to see one in actyion would be in London. Read on their website they build three Digistar 3 planetaria using the ESLP. However when I tried to find teh info a while ago I couldn't find it anymore, looks like they managed to clean up the website, following the sale of CRTs to VDC and the simulation biz to Rockwell.

Believe hearing some-one mentioning a while ago that Sony was still doing a little in GLV, but just for medical imaging.

The local planetarium (Amsterdam Zoo, Artis) was re-opened a few months ago, using two 4K Sony's, supplied by and fitted with Skyskan's dome lens. Never been there, though I did visit the old Carl Zeiss planetarium this summer, however it was converted to a conference center years ago, the restaurants were located in the dome, which the covered up with a low fire-retarding ceiling:-(.

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/glv.htm

DefinerOfReality

12-28-07, 08:06 PM

I will ask when I go see it later in the week. It is possible that at d65, with the new .98higher efficiency chip and all.

Still haven't seen anything circulating on the new NECSAM pieces with .98 dmd.

Peter and Wolfgang,

Do you know anything about the Barco Galaxy NH-12?

http://www.barco.com/VirtualReality/en/products/product.asp?element=3978

It looks pretty promising, especially for 3D!

Cheers -

Jeremy

www.Kipnis-Studio.com

Newly Revised!

CINERAMAX

12-28-07, 11:37 PM

That looks promising, the form factor is good for ceiling mounting in a Flat. It also accomodates a wide range of screens, cylindrical, Torus etc. To a certain extent the DP1500 does too:

http://cineramax.com/images/Barmask.jpg Extreme example of masking system in control software.

You never want to buy Barco directly though, you need a comprehensive VAR with tooling capabilities and what not.

Barco is partly owned by the Belgian government possibly the old world's most notorious bureacracy. Reminiscent of the Vogons in the movie Hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy.

After the unconditional success of Beowulf 3-D I have been looking at the Dolby/Barco DCI 3-D system for some of my clients to get into the Bel Air circuit by next year. This (BAC) is a list of industry VIP's which will get the Hard Drive movie prints (1.8 Tb?) plus a DVD ROM of the key authorizing to watch the film for 3 weeks. To get into the list you need to be in the Industry or know someone. In 5 years this Bel Air cicuit could become the most exclusive list in the anals of Fine Living.

So since this is not a digital cinema unit, you would be locking yourself out of the best 3-d content out there.That is my reservation but for me it shows great potential, thanks.
http://www.dolby.com/images/logos/Dolby3DDC_blue.jpghttp://www.dolby.com/images/professional/motion_picture/scc2000.jpg

An Egyptian type epic famous director is now shooting a new film in 3-D now as part of his deal my Barco VAR buddies are installing an impressive Barco 3-d setup for his home with the contrast mods. He becomes the first member of the 3-D (http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/international/2007/11/26/screening.room.3d.cinema.blka.cnn) BAC. Part 2 of program. (http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/international/2007/11/26/screening.room.3d.cinema.blkb.cnn)

For 3-D to be good you need to swap lamps to double the brightness, as single projector 3-D cuts it by half.

Dolby Show Library 100 (http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/mp_sp_0609_ShowLib.pdf)
Dolby Digital Cinema. (http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/mp_sp_0609_DCinema.pdf)

CINERAMAX

12-29-07, 11:01 AM

I asked my source who said:

"Depends on the movie and the compression done. The last Harry Potter was 80GB
because they used variable bit rate compression and
multiple passes. Typical is about 160-250GB. File size for 3D is about the
same as they are doing 4:2:2, 10-bit for each eye as
appose to 4:4:4 12-bit for 2D. This is a limitation of the interface (HDSDI)
and the speed of the electronics driving the DMDs."

donaldk

12-30-07, 07:55 PM

Did see a small German vendor at IBC, who did jpeg2000 cards to comply with DCI security specs, typically an oem product I doubt even such a card would bring any relieve though.

DefinerOfReality

07-08-08, 10:51 PM

WOW -

I just experienced a great demonstration of Sony SRX-220 projectors, operating in 3D.

It is the very best I have seen, not withstanding Wolfgang's new Barco DP-2000 3D installation :-)

DefinerOfReality

07-26-08, 09:55 PM

Here is a new review I just completed of the Sony SRX-R220 SXRD CineAlta 4k theater projector.

http://www.hometheaterreview.com/front_projector_reviews/sony_srx-r220_4k.html

I encourage everyone to go to the Coca Cola Store in Atlanta, GA to see the fine picture quality they have achieved, both 2D and 3D! ;)

DefinerOfReality

07-31-08, 01:11 AM

And here it is on test at Kipnis Studios:

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee265/Kipnis-Studios/QuadMode4x1080PatTheKipnisStudio-1.jpg

Art Sonneborn

07-31-08, 07:41 AM

That is producing a really great picture even with all of those reflections and purple lights on. How did you keep the screen blacks that low when even black objects in the room aren't that dark ?

Art

donaldk

07-31-08, 10:28 AM

The old trick of taking and combining two pictures?

DefinerOfReality

07-31-08, 11:36 AM

The old trick of taking and combining two pictures?

Well, let's not forget I am running a business, here. So the point of any photo I post of KSS is to give the viewer the impression of what it is like to sit in the room. To that end, the picture above, representing an actual photo of the room in real life has been combined with various source images placed on screen.

While it is certainly true that the actual on-screen contrast ratio would be washed out by the blue/purple staging lights, this photo does give an accurate impression of the size, brightness, and character of Ciné Beta. It also highlights the sharpness, color fidelity, contrast ratio, and multiple simultaneous presentation capabilities of the Sony SRX-R220 projector.

Hopefully, you are impressed and intrigued enough to call me up for a complete demonstration! :p

DefinerOfReality

04-03-09, 09:10 PM

WOW - This thread went hibernating!

Anyway, here is the latest video feature (#38) about my Kipnis Studio Standard home theater design(s):

Teaser:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOylB_0KchA&feature=channel

Feature:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v059Tqp3ZjA

Please enjoy! :)

CINERAMAX

04-03-09, 09:27 PM

Welcome back stranger...

Less than $500???!!!!!

How?

DefinerOfReality

04-03-09, 09:54 PM

Welcome back stranger...

Less than $500???!!!!!

How?

Wait and See!

donaldk

04-03-09, 11:05 PM

Jeremy, ofcourse this thread went hibernating. You're the only one that is still testing the AMC beamer at home, and you went to bed;-).

DefinerOfReality

04-03-09, 11:43 PM

Jeremy, ofcourse this thread went hibernating. You're the only one that is still testing the AMC beamer at home, and you went to bed;-).

No I Didn't! I only am in the middle of a demonstration, at 48.5 ft/Lamberts Peak White at D6504!

Right now we are looking at that (terribly old and screen door distortion ridden 1996) HD transfer of "Willy Wonka" on HD-DVD. But the colors, luminance levels, and gamma are spot on!

Art Sonneborn

04-04-09, 09:40 AM

I took a look at the intewrview on You Tube congrats !:)

I'd love to have 8.8 in my home as well. Where do you get the software for that many discrete channels ?

Art

DefinerOfReality

04-04-09, 11:52 AM

I took a look at the intewrview on You Tube congrats !:)

I'd love to have 8.8 in my home as well. Where do you get the software for that many discrete channels ?

Art

Many Many Thanks! :p

To create 8.8, I initially auditioned most of the high-end digital audio processors, both professional and consumer (including Dolby and DTS's own) and finally decided on the Theta Casablanca III, with some proprietary software modifications I created (Version C) that take it from 8.4 to a full 8.8. The Casablanca IIIC only processes and double samples the incoming 1 - 8 channel digital sources that are available. Conversion takes place out behind the speakers by 13 Theta Generation VIII 2-Channel D/A Converters - themselves again running a slight software (and hardware) modification so that they can take 2x oversampled material from the Casablanca IIIC and 8x oversample that before converting it to Quad-Balanced analog. So there are a total 26 channels that feed a total of 96 drivers in my 8.8 design.

Chris1971

04-04-09, 07:14 PM

Art Sonneborn

04-04-09, 07:29 PM

Many Many Thanks! :p

To create 8.8, I initially auditioned most of the high-end digital audio processors, both professional and consumer (including Dolby and DTS's own) and finally decided on the Theta Casablanca III, with some proprietary software modifications I created (Version C) that take it from 8.4 to a full 8.8. The Casablanca IIIC only processes and double samples the incoming 1 - 8 channel digital sources that are available. Conversion takes place out behind the speakers by 13 Theta Generation VIII 2-Channel D/A Converters - themselves again running a slight software (and hardware) modification so that they can take 2x oversampled material from the Casablanca IIIC and 8x oversample that before converting it to Quad-Balanced analog. So there are a total 26 channels that feed a total of 96 drivers in my 8.8 design.

No ,I mean where are you getting the source material with 8.8 ? Really, otherwise it's still 5.1 perhaps nicely manipulated but still 5.1. I mean really, eight discrete subwoofer channels.:rolleyes:

Art

CINERAMAX

04-04-09, 08:10 PM

Hey Art Lay off Jeremy. ;)

Thiel Ps audio Sim2 and Vutec put on the award wining show at EHX and it was shown as an 8.8 It is a correct description also in my discussions with Roger Dressler of Dolby they are experimenting with 22.4 AND IT IS NOT DISCRETE. Yes there are more discrete channels planned for the DCI future (up to 16 is next) but the use of higher numbers NOW beyond 7.1 indicates their psycho-acoustical locations of interaction with the room, which are of significant benefit over 7.1 locations.

ChrisWiggles

04-04-09, 08:12 PM

No I Didn't! I only am in the middle of a demonstration, at 48.5 ft/Lamberts Peak White at D6504!

Right now we are looking at that (terribly old and screen door distortion ridden 1996) HD transfer of "Willy Wonka" on HD-DVD. But the colors, luminance levels, and gamma are spot on!

Out of curiosity, what is the gamma are you targeting with this projector?

ChrisWiggles

04-04-09, 08:13 PM

No ,I mean where are you getting the source material with 8.8 ? Really, otherwise it's still 5.1 perhaps nicely manipulated but still 5.1. I mean really, eight discrete subwoofer channels.:rolleyes:

Art

I would have to say, that if independently EQed, multiple subwoofers can be hugely advantageous. Multiple subs can be advantageous anyway, but if you run multiple subs through say an Audyssey pro box, the results are phenomenal because each sub is corrected on its own.

And as always, limiting yourself only to the number of discrete source channels is shortsighted. Surely you would agree as to the benefits of a 7.1 array, even on 5.1 content?

Art Sonneborn

04-04-09, 08:55 PM

I would have to say, that if independently EQed, multiple subwoofers can be hugely advantageous. Multiple subs can be advantageous anyway, but if you run multiple subs through say an Audyssey pro box, the results are phenomenal because each sub is corrected on its own.

And as always, limiting yourself only to the number of discrete source channels is shortsighted. Surely you would agree as to the benefits of a 7.1 array, even on 5.1 content?

I can do that with my seven subs but I can't call it 5.7. It makes a mockery of the designation.

Art

Ken Tripp

04-04-09, 09:18 PM

I can do that with my seven subs but I can't call it 5.7. It makes a mockery of the designation.

Art

I'm with you Art, I run 6 subs via 3 individually adjustable channels but as they're all driven from the one LFE track it's still .1

CINERAMAX

04-04-09, 09:35 PM

But when the 7 subs arent playing the point 1 signal, they are just extending the basic 7, what do you call it? We are taliking 8 channel bass management.

I just think Art is the most hardheaded person I know.
Look here:

http://www.miamibadc.com/Images/Prometheus-003.jpg

You may have only 4 channels of input signal but with those 4 channels you can create steered or filtered output channels.

If Jeffrey says he has 8.8 he is referring to output channels, THIS IS THE CORRECT NOMENCLATURE FOR IT even in Dolby Labs 22.2 experimental system.

Ken Tripp

04-04-09, 09:58 PM

But when the 7 subs arent playing the point 1 signal, they are just extending the basic 7, what do you call it?

Well I'd call it 7.1 because that's what it is. Everything after the . refers to LFE material which is separate from the main channel(s) bass content no matter where that ends up.

DefinerOfReality

04-04-09, 10:28 PM

Well I'd call it 7.1 because that's what it is. Everything after the . refers to LFE material which is separate from the main channel(s) bass content no matter where that ends up.

Ah-HA! But with the Theta Casablanca IIIC (and several other great digital surround processor solutions) it is possible to extract and then redirect audio information at any frequency, and this is particularly compelling when one is listening to Stereo (2 - Channel) music, as this is the most celebrated sonic human expression thus far embraced.

Clearly, the ability to liberate a 2 - channel mix-down from just a two speaker reproduction chain affords the possibility of a more complete recreation of the actual sound-stage. In fact, given a certain sized room and audience, it is a measurable certainty that 85 % of a given average audience will respond better ("it sounds more natural") given more channels, more speakers, and more articulate amplification!

Why, then, should it not also be the same (and true) for film, television, and video game soundtracks, as well?

DefinerOfReality

04-04-09, 10:32 PM

If Jeffrey says he has 8.8 he is referring to output channels, THIS IS THE CORRECT NOMENCLATURE FOR IT even in Dolby Labs 22.2 experimental system.

Thank You - Peter.

I also make my own 8.8 recordings using a hand-made Ambisonic Microphone - and they are certainly discrete, but that is another thread, again.

And, BTW, it's Jeremy!!! :p

Ken Tripp

04-04-09, 10:40 PM

Ah-HA! But with the Theta Casablanca IIIC (and several other great digital surround processor solutions) it is possible to extract and then redirect audio information at any frequency, and this is particularly compelling when one is listening to Stereo (2 - Channel) music, as this is the most celebrated sonic human expression thus far embraced.

Clearly, the ability to liberate a 2 - channel mix-down from just a two speaker reproduction chain affords the possibility of a more complete recreation of the actual sound-stage. In fact, given a certain sized room and audience, it is a measurable certainty that 85 % of a given average audience will respond better ("it sounds more natural") given more channels, more speakers, and more articulate amplification!

Why, then, should it not also be the same (and true) for film, television, and video game soundtracks, as well?

No argument from me as this is exactly what I'm doing. It's the misuse of the .X and the use of "LFE" and "Subwoofer" and the assumption by some that they're the same thing that I have issue with. Here's what Dolby have to say on the matter...

http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/zz-_Shared_Assets/English_PDFs/Professional/38_LFE.pdf

DefinerOfReality

04-04-09, 10:52 PM

Jeremy, insane and I'm drop dead jealous!! I just watched the youtube and curious, all that technology and you're still fumbling with three or more remotes. Why no Crestron or AMX? :)

I'm also curious your view of the Meridian 810 projector in comparison to the Sony? I love my Meridian audio, but can't stretch to the projector.

We have had Crestron Systems (as well as Elan, AMX, etc.) as automation solutions for our clients since the very beginning (19 Months Ago). But Ciné Beta is an on-going experiment which receives and divests itself of equipment daily as the technology changes. My most significant pledge to our client's is that "you can operate your screening / listening room from across the planet using your iPhone or BlackBerry!"

Likewise, the Meridian 810 Reference Video System, has been here at KSS and evaluated as the finest 4k x 2k DCI projector (with outboard scaler and Scope Lens) available, today. And . . . it will be back shortly to do duty as our 3D Reference Projector Solution (for audiences < 30).

The Sony SRX-T110 we currently use will receive a much needed 3D Lens assembly, and through top (LEFT) image / bottom (RIGHT) image splitting and a pair of spherical polarizing glasses will produce some of the finest, brightest, and sharpest 3D motion picture images, television shows, and video games (not to mention personal still and video images) yet achieved!

And it will continue to offer 4k playback, given those high-resolution sources.

ChrisWiggles

04-04-09, 10:53 PM

I can do that with my seven subs but I can't call it 5.7. It makes a mockery of the designation.

Art

Sure. But then you're not in sales. ;)

ChrisWiggles

04-04-09, 10:55 PM

So Jeremy, are you really targeting a gamma of 1.0? Or are you after something like 2.2? Or a more reference film-like gamma like 2.5 particularly with the JVC 4k unit that has the CR to support it better?

DefinerOfReality

04-04-09, 11:22 PM

Sure. But then you're not in sales. ;)

Then again - who is, these days? :eek:

Ericglo

04-04-09, 11:41 PM

I encourage everyone to go to the Coca Cola Store in Atlanta, GA to see the fine picture quality they have achieved, both 2D and 3D! ;)

I can ask, but which one is it?

Art Sonneborn

04-05-09, 01:42 AM

But when the 7 subs arent playing the point 1 signal, they are just extending the basic 7, what do you call it? We are taliking 8 channel bass management.

If Jeffrey says he has 8.8 he is referring to output channels, THIS IS THE CORRECT NOMENCLATURE FOR IT even in Dolby Labs 22.2 experimental system.

Bull$hit Peter ,you or I can call it anything we want but if the source output has only one discrete channel then irrespective of the EQ ,software, or voodoo it is .1. Sorry ,I didn't make that up it is simply what's so.

Art

ChrisWiggles

04-05-09, 02:12 AM

Bull$hit Peter ,you or I can call it anything we want but if the source output has only one discrete channel then irrespective of the EQ ,software, or voodoo it is .1. Sorry ,I didn't make that up it is simply what's so.

Art

I agree with you to a point Art, but it isn't so clear-cut IMO. How does one go about describing 5.1 over a 7.1 array via PLIIx or THX Ultra2? It's not discrete 7.1, but it isn't fair to describe that as just 5.1 either. How does one describe DD EX? It isn't 5.1. It isn't discrete 6.1. It's matrixed 6.1, do you call it something other than 6.1 in a passing description? The source is delivering more than 5.1 channels of audio, yet the discrete channels is only 5.1. What about DTS-ES discrete? That isn't quite fully discrete 6.1 either. I just think that the numerical descriptions aren't as clear-cut as you make them out to be, and if they used in a way where they only describe discrete source channels, then they aren't really the most useful either since such a descriptor is incapable of distinguishing between a 5.1 mix and an EX "6.1" source, or between a stereo source and a surround-encoded source.

CINERAMAX

04-05-09, 02:34 AM

You are hard headed as a Spanish bull in mating season. When you get a 2 channel signal in directv are you watching 2 in your system or 7.1? You consider your system a 7.1 right?

I am telling you that Roger Dressler reviewed my plans for a steered 12 channel system and said "this is exactly what we do in our 22.2 channel system in the large laboratory room". Roger Dressler head of research at Dolby.

My screenshot of the tact audio shows INPUT CHANNELS and OUTPUT CHANNELS, you are saying that input channels is what counts, fine but how do you discuss system employing more channels of output, either with just low pass information or the more complex ambiance extraction steered matrixes, or the even more complex height extraction matrixes?

We that work with such complex (http://www.miamibadc.com/Images/Tact-012.jpg) signal manipulations (http://www.miamibadc.com/Images/Promefinale-033.jpg) DEMAND THE RIGHT TO USE NUMBER OF OUTPUT CHANNELS as the channel designation, I am willing to compromise with a more descriptive nomenclature like I/O 7.1/10.2 but I am sure not going to let some overworked orthodontist telling me how to run my business because we need to communicate what the system is doing and 7.1 does not cut it.

Can't you Relax? Come down to Prometheus and have a Pina Colada by the pool (http://www.miamibadc.com/Images/10608-014.jpg).;)

THIS TANTRUM FROM the same person that believes in CREATING additional resolution with the video scaler for the isco. It is textbook case of selective curmudgeonry.

ChrisWiggles

04-05-09, 02:45 AM

Oh geez. I can't believe I'm on peter's side in this conversation. I need to go re-examine my life now. :(

Art Sonneborn

04-05-09, 10:36 AM

I agree with you to a point Art, but it isn't so clear-cut IMO. How does one go about describing 5.1 over a 7.1 array via PLIIx or THX Ultra2? It's not discrete 7.1, but it isn't fair to describe that as just 5.1 either. How does one describe DD EX? It isn't 5.1. It isn't discrete 6.1. It's matrixed 6.1, do you call it something other than 6.1 in a passing description? The source is delivering more than 5.1 channels of audio, yet the discrete channels is only 5.1. What about DTS-ES discrete? That isn't quite fully discrete 6.1 either. I just think that the numerical descriptions aren't as clear-cut as you make them out to be, and if they used in a way where they only describe discrete source channels, then they aren't really the most useful either since such a descriptor is incapable of distinguishing between a 5.1 mix and an EX "6.1" source, or between a stereo source and a surround-encoded source.

No no I'm not disagreeing with this but at the same time there simply isn't any real convention. It is true however that the matrixed 6.1 is still by convention (and generally it is understood what one is getting) while the things in this thread get into some pretty unbelievable almost voodoo like hyperbole . Personally ,I'm particularly skeptical regarding the use of .8 designation with a single subwoofer channel.

Art