There have been a lot of questions about audio support for the new HD-A1 and HD-XA1 HD DVD players from Toshiba. It seems to be a source of much more confusion than the video side. There is good reason for this as the audio possiblities are much more complex than they were for DVD. A glance at the attached PDF which is page 59 of the A1 manual illustrates this fact.

Since the same questions keep getting asked and answered in new threads, I thought I would try to summarize some of the information which has been posted. I'm not an expert or insider and some of this info may not be 100% correct. If any of this is incorrect or you have better information, please post a reply or PM me and I will update it. Some of this information may apply to future HD-DVD and Blu-ray players as well.

What Are These New Surround Sound Formats?

Both the HD-A1 and HD-XA1 support onboard decoding for the following audio formats which are part of the HD-DVD specification. Note that the manuals do not mention support for DVD-Audio or SACD and it has been confirmed they will not play them.

Dolby Digital
Dolby Digital Plus (new)
Dolby TrueHD (new) - lossless. Getting 5.1 channels requires firmware 2.0 or higher. Earlier firmware was 2 channel output only and 5.1 channel TrueHD soundtracks were down mixed to left and right only.
DTS
DTS-HD (new) - name for a collection of DTS formats (see more details below). Lossless is supported (Master Audio), but the manual says "DTS Core Only" so they probably will not decode the new DTS-HD lossless

The formats marked as (new) were not available on standard DVDs. All HD DVDs are required to have at least a DD+ soundtrack. TrueHD and DTS-HD are optional. They all support higher bitrates and audio quality, but the maximum bitrates are too high for the coaxial or Toslink optical S/PDIF connection that you use with your current DVD player. They also cannot be decoded by current processors or receivers so even if S/PDIF could pass these bitstreams it wouldn't do any good. So how can you get access to the improved sound quality of these new formats?

Since both players have internal decoders all the supported formats listed above can be decoded and output as 5.1 channel digital LPCM over the HDMI connection. They also have 5.1 channel 24/192 DACs (Digital to Analog Converters), so the LPCM can be converted to 5.1 channel analog audio and passed over the 6 RCA jacks. 5.1 channel analog inputs have become fairly common in receivers to support DVD-Audio and SACD players, but HDMI is only on newer units. HDMI 1.0 and lower supports only 2 channel PCM. HDMI 1.1 supports up to 8 channels of PCM but does not require that a receiver handle 8 channels to claim it is HDMI 1.1. Check your manual or contact the manufacturer. It could be 5.1 or 7.1. Most current receivers are 5.1.

The players can also output standard DD or DTS over S/PDIF, but the new formats must be transcoded or re-encoded to one of these standard formats to be passed over S/PDIF. However, the data rate can be up to 640 kbps for DD and 1500 kbps for DTS which is higher than most DVDs used. So you can still get higher quality sound from these new formats with S/PDIF.

The April 2006 issue of Home Theater magazine has an article titled "Surround Revisited". It has some details on the new formats. If you don't want to buy it, you can read it in about 5-10 minutes at the book store. Here are a few quotes I found interesting.
Dolby Digital Plus is billed as an extension of Dolby Digital. For backwards compatibilty with the Dolby Digital equipment in 30 million surround receivers and 60 million set top boxes, Dolby Digital Plus signals are converted to Dolby Digital at the relatively high data rate of 640 kilobits per second (Dolby Digital usually operates at 192 to 448 kbps) through S/PDIF outputs, better known as digital optical and coaxial.
So it sounds like DD+ can be converted to the highest bitrate standard DD pretty easily for those who don't have a receiver with HDMI or 5.1 analog audio inputs. All of the lauch titles include DD+. However, the launch titles use something called Advanced Content (more details later) and for this type of content the players re-encode the PCM to standard DTS at 1.5 Mbps. So you must at least have a receiver which will accept DTS to get 5.1 channels over SPDIF.

DTS-HD is the latest wrinkle in DTS branding. Not so much an extension as a consolidation, it includes all the Coherent Acoustics formats - DTS, DTS ES Discrete, DTS ES Matrix, DTS Neo:6, and DTS 96/24 - plus a new lossless format that supports up to 7.1 channels and a sampling frequency of 192 kHz.
So DTS-HD is not necessarily lossless like DD TrueHD, although it can be. However, the manual clearly says in several places that they support "DTS core only". It is unclear at this time what this means. Some posters in these forums have said it means no lossless support. Others have said it means 5.1 channels only (no 6.1 or 7.1) but can be lossless. We may not know for sure until someone releases a disk with lossless DTS-HD. If you are interested in this topic you might want to start reading at this post in another thread.

If you are interested in the supported bit rates, you might want to check out this thread.

What Are My Connection Options?

The audio connection options for multichannel sound and supported formats will be the following, listed first choice to third choice. Use the first one that your receiver supports.

HDMI Connection (version 1.1)
All formats supported by the player's internal decoder (see above) can be converted to 5.1 channel digital LPCM and sent over HDMI
If you set Digital Out HDMI to Auto the new formats will be decoded and output as PCM. Standard DD and DTS from DVDs will be passed as bitstream.
If you set Digital Out HDMI to PCM, all formats will be decoded and output as PCM, even std DD and DTS from DVDs.
Your reciever may apply speaker settings, bass management and surround processing to the 5.1 channel digital PCM input. If this is the case you should not need to set these in the player although someone did report that the speaker settings do affect HDMI as well as the analog outputs. So if the balance from the Toshiba is different than other sources you might be able to tweak it. Usually it is best to set the Toshiba to all speakers large, all levels at zero and distances at the default.
Some have reported getting sound from their rear speakers (7.1) using their receiver's surround fields (Dolby Pro Logic II) in the posts below, but this is not 7.1 discrete channels. The rear channel sound is created from the 5.1 channel output.


5.1 Channel Analog Audio Connection (6 RCA)
All formats supported by the player's internal decoder (see above) are decoded to PCM then converted to 5.1 channel analog audio.
Should be full bandwidth analog since spec sheets say "Multi-Channel 24-bit/192kHz Audio DACs"
Speaker setup and bass management depends on receiver capabilities, but most do not support processing of analog inputs. So you might want to use the 5.1 Speaker setup in the player's Setup menu to configure it correctly for your speakers.
There are problems with the internal test tones in the player. The 5 channel level is very loud and the LFE is much lower. If possible, you should use test tones from a setup disk such as Avia or Video Essentials to set the speaker levels. There is much discussion of this topic below.
Some people with 7.1 channel analog inputs use RCA splitters to feed the left and right surround signals to the corresponding rear speakers as well.



S/PDIF Coaxial or Toslink (optical) Digital Audio Connection (same as current DVD players)

If SPDIF Audio Output is set to Bitstream (the default) you will get the new formats either transcoded or re-encoded to standard DD or DTS. The format depends on the disc, but the launch titles all use "Advanced Content" which is re-encoded to DTS at 1.5 Mbps by the XA1 and A1. See the "Advanced Con." row in the attached table for details.
If SPDIF Audio Output is set to Bitstream (the default) standard DD or DTS streams on DVDs will be passed as that bitstream.
You can only get 2 channel PCM over SPDIF. If you set SPDIF Audio Output to PCM, you will only get 2 channels. See the attached table.


Are There Audio Differences Between the HD-A1 and HD-XA1?

Early on there was much speculation about audio differences between the A1 and XA1 due mostly to what was not mentioned in the advertised specs versus what was mentioned. The A1 spec sheet contained much less detail. Now that the A1 is shipping, it seems to have all of the audio features listed on the XA1 spec sheet.

Should I Wait for Next Generation Players and Receivers That Support HDMI 1.3?

Many people in these forums suggest waiting for HDMI 1.3 devices because it can pass the new formats as a bit stream for external decoding. The HD-A1 and HD-XA1 players are HDMI 1.1 and as of today there are no receivers or processors which support 1.3. So you might be wondering if it is better to wait until players and receivers that support 1.3 become available. A personal choice, but this information may help you decide.

Posts in these forums indicate that the chip sets for HDMI 1.3 will be released in April of 2007, so there will likely be no players or receivers that support it until sometime after that.

The November 2005 issue of Widescreen Review (www.widescreenreview.com) had a very good article titled "Dolby Audio Coding for Future Entertainment Formats" which indicated that using an external decoder might not be desirable. If you are really interested in this topic, I would recommend reading the full article. If you subscribe to their web site you can download the full article as a PDF file. Here is a quote from that article.

The implications of this decoding within the player are significant. New features can be created for a given title long after the discs have shipped. More importantly, the fact that players will be mixing the audio internally means that it will no longer be possible (or necessary) to output raw audio bitstreams from the player as is typical with DVD-Video. As a result, consumers can no longer assume that every player will work with every A/V receiver. Two methods already exist for reproducing the high-resolution soundtracks of next-generation optical formats through your A/V receiver or audio processor...
The article goes on to discuss the multi-channel analog audio and multi-channel digital LPCM over HDMI connection options and says "A connection through either of these existing interfaces will let you experience the full potential of the high-resolution audio delivered on next-generation optical formats."

It also discusses re-encoding the PCM signal to standard Dobly Digital for output to a current DD receiver or processor over S/PDIF and says "In many instances, the audio quality you will experience from this connection may be better than what you would experience during playback of standard-definition DVD-Video discs, especially if the native signal on the disc is Dolby TrueHD or high-bit-rate Dolby Digital Plus." This is because most standard DVDs do not use the maximum quality (bits/kHz) supported by DD and DTS to save space on the disk for extras. These new players should be able to downconvert the new formats to the highest supported standard DD and DTS quality.

All of the April 18 launch titles use something called "Advanced Content" so the most important row in the audio output tables may be the one for "Advanced Con.". The soundtracks on these discs is decoded to PCM and goes through a mixer where other audio (such as the menu selection sounds or future content) can be added. The resulting mix can be output directly as 5.1 channel PCM or analog, but to get a multichannel bitstream it is re-encoded to DTS then sent to the receiver to be decoded again. It's too early to know if all future HD DVD players and discs will be like this, but it does hint that future players with HDMI 1.3 might re-encode the PCM to DD+, TrueHD or DTS-HD to provide a bitstream output. If this is true, the ability to send these bitstreams over HDMI offers no advantage, in fact it would be undesirable. You might as well send the PCM over HDMI and not bother with another encode/decode step which can potentially degrade the audio.

Standard DVD created the mindset that to get the best audio quality you must pass the raw digital audio bitstream to a high quality external decoder. But the WSR article indicates that with the new HD-DVD and Blu-ray players there will be advantages to having the player decode and mix the audio. So for those wanting the highest quality sound, the audio capabilities of the player may become more important and external decoding in the receiver/processor will no longer be required.

Given all of that, there may be no reason to wait for HDMI 1.3 to get better audio. You should be able to get higher quality sound from these new formats now. With currently available HDMI 1.1 connections you can have a single cable passing high quality multi-channel digital sound to your receiver or processor.

It's been confirmed in other threads that the HD-XA1 and HD-A1 are the same electronics design. They are believed to use the same software as well, but I am not sure that is confirmed.

You might want to mention that DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD are the new lossless formats. One of the most common misconceptions I see posted about the Toshiba players is that they "won't support lossless audio" when indeed they do. In fact, they are the only announced players (with a press release) for either format to feature native decoding of lossless audio.

These players decode the lossless multichannel DTS-HD and lossless 2-chan TrueHD and output the full quality audio signal as [up to] 24/196 LPCM through HDMI; they also output these lossless formats through the 5.1 analog connections with 24/196 DACs.

Another misconception I've seen posted about the Toshibas relates to the lack of 7.1 outputs. It's been suggested that lack of 7.1 is a major design flaw on the Toshibas, and that people should avoid them for this reason. However, this ignores the fact that almost all studio masters today feature 5.1 discrete audio, not 7.1. For a title to feature anything but 5.1, it will require a studio remix, which we are not likely to see on anything but certain "special edition" disks for the forseeable future. If special editions with a 7.1 remix are released at some point in the future, it's entirely conceivable that the Toshiba HD-X1 will decode and output this signal as 7.1 LPCM through HDMI -- a capability listed on the spec sheet for the Broadcom decoder.

These players decode the lossless multichannel DTS-HD and lossless 2-chan TrueHD and output the full quality audio signal as [up to] 24/196 LPCM through HDMI; they also output these lossless formats through the 5.1 analog connections with 24/196 DACs.

LPCM through HDMI - how many channels are those limited to ? The format calls for a minimum of 2 channels - is that all the players do ?

I think decoding DTS-HD and TrueHD and outputting that thr' HDMI is a major feature that even the 1,800 pioneer does not have.

nataraj,

TrueHD decoding is limited to two-channel 24/196 (lossless) on the Broadcom decoder. I would guess that future-generation Broadcom decoders coming in 2007 will decode multichannel TrueHD as 5.1 or 7.1 LPCM.

The chip does support multichannel 24/96 (lossless) DTS-HD. The Toshiba claims 5.1 LPCM support for DTS-HD, although the decoder spec sheet claims up to 7.1 LPCM.

You might want to mention that DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD are the new lossless formats. One of the most common misconceptions I see posted about the Toshiba players is that they "won't support lossless audio" when indeed they do. In fact, they are the only announced players (with a press release) for either format to feature native decoding of lossless audio.
Thanks, I added "lossless supported" to the list of available formats in the first post.

The chip does support multichannel 24/96 (lossless) DTS-HD. The Toshiba claims 5.1 LPCM support for DTS-HD, although the decoder spec sheet claims up to 7.1 LPCM.

So, DTS-HD (http://www.dtsonline.com/consumer/dtshd.php) (which is an optional format in HD-DVD and BR) with a receiver that takes 5.1 LPCM over HDMI will give the best audio. Ofcourse we don't know whether the movies will have a HDT-HD track ....

The Japanese HD-DVD that was linked in another thread had DTS-HD so DTS-HD releases are likely in the USA (Although DTS is more popular in Japan & Asia so I guess it comes down to what percentage will be DTS-HD).

so the player can send multi-channel LPCM over HDMI 1.1. are all receivers/pre-pros with HDMI 1.1 capable of receiving LPCM on HDMI? if so, can they perform bass management, channel delay, et al to this signal, or will that still depend on the receiver/pre-pro?

so the player can send multi-channel LPCM over HDMI 1.1. are all receivers/pre-pros with HDMI 1.1 capable of receiving LPCM on HDMI? if so, can they perform bass management, channel delay, et al to this signal, or will that still depend on the receiver/pre-pro?
I believe multi-channel LPCM is part of the HDMI 1.1 spec, so any receiver that claims 1.1 should handle it. But it might be best to check the specs or manual. In the case of my Yamaha HTR-5990 it states multi-channel LPCM support. As many early adopters know, that doesn't guarantee it will work. I had some problems in the early days of Dolby Digital on DVD and had to send a receiver for a firmware upgrade.

I also wondered about the bass management issue on my Yamaha HTR-5990. I don't know if there are any specs or standards requiring this. I sent an Email to Yamaha support and got a somewhat vague answer which indicated that it will do bass management for multi-channel LCPM. I plan to call their customer support to see if I can get a more definitive answer.

I believe multi-channel LPCM is part of the HDMI 1.1 spec, so any receiver that claims 1.1 should handle it. As many early adopters know, that doesn't guarantee it will work. I had some problems in the early days of Dolby Digital on DVD and had to send a receiver for a firmware upgrade.
In my experience there are mandatory and optional portions of the HDMI spec and this leads to confusion in the marketplace.

I sent an Email to Yamaha support and got a somewhat vague answer which indicated that it will do bass management for multi-channel LCPM. I plan to call their customer support to see if I can get a more definitive answer.
I called Yamaha support to try to get a more definitive answer. The guy who answered said that the HTR-5990 will not apply bass management and speaker settings to multi-channel PCM input, it just converts to analog and amplifies. Maybe the only way to tell for sure is to try it, but I don't currently have a source which outputs multi-channel PCM over HDMI.

So it may be important whether or not the HD-A1 has the same speaker and bass management features as are listed for the HD-XA1. It is hard to tell from the spec sheets. The spec sheet for the XA1 contains a lot of detail not included in the A1 spec sheet, so it may be the A1 has these features but they are just not mentioned.

I started a thread in the Receiver forum a few weeks ago to see if anyone over there had answers but got no replies.

OK, I got another Email reply from Yamaha support which says it will apply bass management and speaker settings to multi-channel PCM over HDMI. See this post for details of the Email exchange. So I got two conflicting answers from Email and phone support, so it may be the only way to know for sure is to test it.

I don't see any mention of DVD-Audio or SACD on the tech sheets or on the unit itself.

It supports high rez audio but these labels are not present. Will I be able to play them on this new machine?

I'd be pretty annoyed if I had to choose playing DVD-A and SACD on my old DVD player vs. having hi rez audio for movies.

It seems stupid to not support these audio formats. I'm not even sure if there is a receiver today that has more than one multi-channel analog input.

There are lots of recievers with multiple 7.1 ins. The Toshiba machines are not going to be Audiophile wonders and have no I-Link (Which rules out digital SACD), if it saved $50 by dropping these formats then its worth it, infact in my situation if it saved $50 I would be happy if these machines dropped support for everything but HD-DVD.

I don't see any mention of DVD-Audio or SACD on the tech sheets or on the unit itself.

It supports high rez audio but these labels are not present. Will I be able to play them on this new machine?

I'd be pretty annoyed if I had to choose playing DVD-A and SACD on my old DVD player vs. having hi rez audio for movies.

It seems stupid to not support these audio formats. I'm not even sure if there is a receiver today that has more than one multi-channel analog input.


DVD-A uses MLP ... which is the older version of lossless codec from meridian, which is now part of both formats. SACD uses DSD - a different type of sampling. That is not part of the new formats.

But, there is nothing stopping the players from playing dvd-a or sacd discs, though it is not mandatory for either format.

My Lexicon MC-1 only has SPDIF and COAXIAL digital inputs. This will mean the new formats will downconvert to standard DD and DTS. Will I hear an improvemt over standard DVD players?

In many instances, the audio quality you will experience from this connection may be better than what you would experience during playback of standard-definition DVD-Video discs, especially if the native signal on the disc is Dolby TrueHD or high-bit-rate Dolby Digital Plus. This is a direct result of a higher-quality source signal feeding a Dolby Digital encoder running at 640 kbps—higher than the maximum bit rate on DVD-Video (448 kbps max).
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/trueHD/AVRs/trueHD_avrs_2.html

http://www.dolby.com/images/consumer/technology/trueHD/fig4.jpg

My Lexicon MC-1 only has SPDIF and COAXIAL digital inputs. This will mean the new formats will downconvert to standard DD and DTS. Will I hear an improvemt over standard DVD players?
It is possible since the new formats could be downconverted to the maximum supported quality (bits/kHz) of standard DD and DTS, which is rarely provided on standard DVDs due to space limitations. Here is a quote from the WSR article cited in the first post.

"In many instances, the audio quality you will experience from this connection [S/PDIF] may be better than what you would experience during playback of standard-definition DVD-Video discs, especially if the native signal on the disc is Dolby TrueHD or high-bit-rate Dolby Digital Plus."

Of course, no one will no for sure until people get units in their hands for testing. It may depend on the quality of the downconversion process.

those two last posts are promising!

The downconversion to compatible formats does sound exciting. I hope this players can downconvert to full bitrate DTS ES, too.

Even if the sound over S/PDIF is **only** as good as can currently be experienced on D-Theater films, I don't think many people will be complaining.

Even if the sound over S/PDIF is **only** as good as can currently be experienced on D-Theater films, I don't think many people will be complaining.

Or don't forget the most important thing "Picture Quality" of which I don't think many people will complain either.

If given the choice - what would sound better - analog or hdmi

The Sony Blu-Ray player supposedly has more of the "basic" features than ANY of the current players from either camp. It's speculated that it will decode and output 7.1 high resolution channels from DTS-HD and Dolby Digital TrueHD too besides Dolby Digital Plus lossy (at least via an 8 channel analog output). It also can output 720p, 1080i/60, and 1080p/60.

However, I'd rather have HDMI v. 1.3 (or better) outputs on a player so if it doesn't have the requisite audio decoding it can still be read and sent to an outboard surround processor with HDMI v. 1.3 inputs.

That's where ALL of the current players from both sides fall short.

Dan

If given the choice - what would sound better - analog or hdmi
That would probably depend on several factors, but HDMI would most likely be the best choice provided you have a high quality receiver or processor. I don't think there are any cheap receivers yet that have HDMI inputs.

Here are some factors that could affect the choice. Does the player or receiver have the best DACs? If the receiver, then HDMI should be better. If the player, then analog might be better. But if the receiver converts the 5.1 analog inputs to digital for processing, then you have added analog/digital and digital/analog conversion in the path which could potentially degrade the sound quality.

The latest issue of Widescreen Review (March 2006) has a good article titled "Blu-Ray and HD DVD CES Announcements". Here is a quote that contains some more details about the audio differences between the A1 and XA1.
Both devices will utilize Broadcom’s® new BCM7411D video decoder chip and will output copy-protected HD content through the HDMI interface in either 720p or 1080i. Both players will internally process Dolby Digital+, Dolby TrueHD (two-channel only), and DTS-HD, with the HD-XA1 employing four Analog Devices SHARC DSP chips for audio decoding. In addition, the SHARC chips will provide user selectable bass management, delay management, and channel level management.
It's not really clear if the A1 uses SHARC chips (less than 4?) or if not what it does use for audio decoding. But it does seem to confirm that the XA1 will have more advanced audio management options than the A1.

But it does seem to confirm that the XA1 will have more advanced audio management options than the A1.If it takes 4 DSP chips for the audio features, I'd venture a guess that the DSP firmware could use some optimizing. We're doing all that stuff on two embedded DSPs.

If it takes 4 DSP chips for the audio features, I'd venture a guess that the DSP firmware could use some optimizing. We're doing all that stuff on two embedded DSPs.
Does your solution currently have the capability to decode and process all the audio formats, including both multichannel lossless formats?

There is a pretty interesting discussion about the new lossless audio formats versus current lossy DVD audio formats in this thread over in the Blu-ray forum.

So, DTS-HD (which is an optional format in HD-DVD and BR) with a receiver that takes 5.1 LPCM over HDMI will give the best audio. Ofcourse we don't know whether the movies will have a HDT-HD track ....

If I'm reading the HD-DVD spec correctly :) DTS-HD is not optional. To clarify - it is mandatory.

The downconversion to compatible formats does sound exciting. I hope this players can downconvert to full bitrate DTS ES, too.

I would not count on any high quality down-convertion, given the fact the encoder needs to operate in real-time. Most likely the encoding algorithm will be restricted.

:(

I would not count on any high quality down-convertion, given the fact the encoder needs to operate in real-time. Most likely the encoding algorithm will be restricted.

:(
Some video processors require enough time to deinterlace and scale video that audio delay is necessary to keep both in sync. I can't see why Toshiba can't do something similar to this.

If I'm reading the HD-DVD spec correctly :) DTS-HD is not optional. To clarify - it is mandatory.
Is it mandatory for the players or the disks? I read that players are required to support DD+ and DTS-HD, but I have not seen anything saying that any format other than standard DD is mandatory on the disks.

Is it mandatory for the players or the disks? I read that players are required to support DD+ and DTS-HD, but I have not seen anything saying that any format other than standard DD is mandatory on the disks.

They are not mandatory on the discs.

Can some one tell me if i have a reciever that has the 5.1 inputs will it play the DD+ and DTS-HD?And where would you plug the 2 channel lossless plugs into?

If you only have 5.1 inputs, you would still be able to get DD+ or DTS-HD, but obviouslly you'd be missing the 2 back channels. Which really isn't an issue since the players only have 5.1 OUTPUTS anyway.

For the 2-channel D_THD, if you're using the analog outs, then they would be L and R only.

Can someone please list the main differences in thes two players that justify the
$300.00 price difference?

Thanks

Edit: Sorry, just found thread answering above question!

There is another thread on this but basically from memory:

stabilization feet
motorized door
5.1 analog outputs for high quality audio

these three I know for sure

I believe there is also enhanced networking capabilities - although I am not sure about this one.

I bought the more expensive one for the 5.1 analog outputs

Both players have 5.1 analog outputs AFAIK.

But, both have 5.1 analog outputs.

"The new HD-A1 HD DVD player can pass digital information to a Surround Sound Processor/Receiver via S/PDIF or HDMI. For Dolby Digital and DTS, the bitstream will be passed through both connections just as in a standard DVD player with the same interfaces. Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD content will be converted to a standard bitstream format that is compatible with any processor equipped with decoders of the respective formats and output through S/PDIF and HDMI. Additionally, all the audio formats for either DVD or HD DVD will be decoded to PCM and output via HDMI in either stereo or multi-channel. "

Thus no analog outputs for HD-AI

Check the spec sheet at the Toshiba HD-DVD web site. Both models clearly have 5.1 analog audio outputs.

I received the following in a PM. The source is a dealer who will be selling the Toshiba HD-DVD players.
I just got confirmation from a Toshiba HD DVD product manager that there is no audio difference or audio management advantage on the HD-XA1 over the HD-A1.
So maybe there really is no difference in the audio. The spec sheets seem to indicate there is, but I have never seen any definite information to confirm it. A few people in these forums have indicated that the audio in both units is identical and the Toshiba rep at the demo I attended said the same thing. I will revise the first post to reflect this new info.

I'm bumping this thread up because as release approaches the same questions about audio keep coming up. I have also added some more information to the first post.

Just ordered one from the AVS PowerBuy.

I exchanged a few emails with the Directory of Technology at Dobly regarding HDMI 1.1 and Dolby TrueHD. He basically said that as long as receiver can accept 6ch 24/96 LPCM via HDMI then we are good to go for Dolby TrueHD. 6ch 24/96 LPCM is 6ch 24/96 PCM regardless if it is DVD-Audio or Dolby TrueHD. HOWEVER, my concern is sountracks in 6ch 24/192 LPCM, the Denon receivers I looked at don't support more than 2ch 24/192 LPCM. And if an HDMI 1.1 receiver receives 6ch 24/192 LPCM what does it do with it.

I exchanged a few emails with the Directory of Technology at Dobly regarding HDMI 1.1 and Dolby TrueHD. He basically said that as long as receiver can accept 6ch 24/96 LPCM via HDMI then we are good to go for Dolby TrueHD. 6ch 24/96 LPCM is 6ch 24/96 PCM regardless if it is DVD-Audio or Dolby TrueHD. HOWEVER, my concern is sountracks in 6ch 24/192 LPCM, the Denon receivers I looked at don't support more than 2ch 24/192 LPCM. And if an HDMI 1.1 receiver receives 6ch 24/192 LPCM what does it do with it.
I don't know if any current receivers support 5.1 channel 24/192 PCM over HDMI. The manual for my Yamaha HTR-5990 indicates 24/192 for two channels, but 24/96 for 5.1 channels. There have been some posts saying that most movies were mastered at 24/48, so there may be few (if any) soundtracks at 24/192 in the near future. But there have been some hints that we might see music discs for the new HD formats using multi-channel 24/192. I would guess there will be some audio output settings on the HD-DVD player to let you select the maximum output frequency to match your receiver and you would get that frequency for 5.1 channels. I think my current DVD player has a setting like this for 2 channel PCM output.

There is another thread on this but basically from memory:

stabilization feet
motorized door
5.1 analog outputs for high quality audio

these three I know for sure

I believe there is also enhanced networking capabilities - although I am not sure about this one.

I bought the more expensive one for the 5.1 analog outputs


There are four (4) differences between the two players.

1) The HD-XA1 has an RS-232 connection on the rear that the HD-A1 doesn't. This is great for systems controlled by the Crestron system or similar products.

2) The HD-XA1 has Stabilizer Feet to help reduce vibration and increase signal quality.

3) The HD-XA1 has a Motion Activated back-lit remote. While the HD-A1 remote resembles the XA1, it doesn't have the motion activated feature.

4) The HD-XA1 has the mechanized, brushed aluminum panel that folds down to allow the drawer to open and close and it hides the USB ports on the front.

This list was given to me by Toshiba's HD DVD marketing division.

Don

I don't know if any current receivers support 5.1 channel 24/192 PCM over HDMI. The manual for my Yamaha HTR-5990 indicates 24/192 for two channels, but 24/96 for 5.1 channels. There have been some posts saying that most movies were mastered at 24/48, so there may be few (if any) soundtracks at 24/192 in the near future. But there have been some hints that we might see music discs for the new HD formats using multi-channel 24/192. I would guess there will be some audio output settings on the HD-DVD player to let you select the maximum output frequency to match your receiver and you would get that frequency for 5.1 channels. I think my current DVD player has a setting like this for 2 channel PCM output.

Yeah, this looks like it will be player specific. The Dolby guy said that it would be outside the scope of Dolby TrueHD. I'd imagine this may become a common problem, players will either have to have the functionality to downsample 6ch 24/192 to 6ch 24/96 or we just get regular DD5.1/DTS.

There are four (4) differences between the two players.

1) The HD-XA1 has an RS-232 connection on the rear that the HD-A1 doesn't. This is great for systems controlled by the Crestron system or similar products.

2) The HD-XA1 has Stabilizer Feet to help reduce vibration and increase signal quality.

3) The HD-XA1 has a Motion Activated back-lit remote. While the HD-A1 remote resembles the XA1, it doesn't have the motion activated feature.

4) The HD-XA1 has the mechanized, brushed aluminum panel that folds down to allow the drawer to open and close and it hides the USB ports on the front.

This list was given to me by Toshiba's HD DVD marketing division.

Don

So if these are the only differences, does anyone think they are worth $300?

so - does anyone think there's a chance these MIGHT play SACD and DVD-A?

There are four (4) differences between the two players.

1) The HD-XA1 has an RS-232 connection on the rear that the HD-A1 doesn't. This is great for systems controlled by the Crestron system or similar products.

2) The HD-XA1 has Stabilizer Feet to help reduce vibration and increase signal quality.

3) The HD-XA1 has a Motion Activated back-lit remote. While the HD-A1 remote resembles the XA1, it doesn't have the motion activated feature.

4) The HD-XA1 has the mechanized, brushed aluminum panel that folds down to allow the drawer to open and close and it hides the USB ports on the front.

This list was given to me by Toshiba's HD DVD marketing division.

Don

+ gold plated connectors

Well then it's definitely worth the $300 difference! :D

So if these are the only differences, does anyone think they are worth $300?


Well if you have it it probably is. :) I'm getting the A1 though.So the audio management feature is the same that's good news.

Art

There have been some posts saying that most movies were mastered at 24/48, so there may be few (if any) soundtracks at 24/192 in the near future. But there have been some hints that we might see music discs for the new HD formats using multi-channel 24/192.

What "hints"? There hasn't been a single dedicated music DVD-Audio disc released so far with multichannel 24/192, and you are "hinting" that a video disc (not dedicated audio disc) in the future may contain such track? Keep dreaming! My guess is you'll be lucky to ever see even a 5.1 24/96 lossless soundtrack on an HD DVD/BR disc. Probably most of them will be 24/48.

What "hints"? There hasn't been a single dedicated music DVD-Audio disc released so far with multichannel 24/192, and you are "hinting" that a video disc (not dedicated audio disc) in the future may contain such track? Keep dreaming! My guess is you'll be lucky to ever see even a 5.1 24/96 lossless soundtrack on an HD DVD/BR disc. Probably most of them will be 24/48.
See this post in another thread. I have seen other posts where people "hinted" that HD-DVD and/or Blu-ray might be used for a new music disc format that takes advantage of 24/192 support even if movies don't. I'm not personally hinting at anything since I have no inside information. I did say "might be music discs..." not video discs, but given the capacity of these new discs and the new audio formats I don't see any reason there could not be concert discs with HD video and 24/192 audio if the masters were of that quality. I'm not saying or hinting that we will see it anytime soon.

Can somebody please explain what "Dolby TrueHD - 2 channel only, lossless supported" is? First, how is two channels a good thing, second, what is lossless?

Thanks,
Jason

Can somebody please explain what "Dolby TrueHD - 2 channel only, lossless supported" is? First, how is two channels a good thing, second, what is lossless?

Thanks,
Jason

http://www.dolby.com/images/promo/HD/Picture-Perfect-lg.jpg
From Dolby's Marketing Propaganda =D

I have no idea why there is only 2ch TrueHD in these units. I assume Toshiba was getting scared that they would actually release behind Bluray so released these players with only 2channel TrueHD processors. I'll definitely be waiting for multichannel TrueHD myself.

Can somebody please explain what "Dolby TrueHD - 2 channel only, lossless supported" is? First, how is two channels a good thing, second, what is lossless?
I don't think anyone said that "2 channels only" is a good thing, but that is what the Toshiba spec sheets say. I'm not sure what that means relative to playing a disk with 5.1 channel TrueHD.

Lossless means that the digital audio source is encoded and compressed, but no information is thrown away in the process. It is possible to reverse the process and recreate the original bit for bit when it is decoded.

http://www.dolby.com/images/promo/HD/Picture-Perfect-lg.jpg
From Dolby's Marketing Propaganda =D

I have no idea why there is only 2ch TrueHD in these units. I assume Toshiba was getting scared that they would actually release behind Bluray so released these players with only 2channel TrueHD processors. I'll definitely be waiting for multichannel TrueHD myself.

All this talk about the different formats supported and how we can get them out of the player yet no discussion about how we might only be able to get two channels out of it. This doesn't make sense. Isn't this taking a 10 year step back to stereo only? Who cares if there is high quality audio if we are only going to get left and right unless there is DTS-HD, which isn't required. I was just about to pull the trigger until this information. Somebody please tell me this is incorrect.

Thanks,
Jason

What "hints"? There hasn't been a single dedicated music DVD-Audio disc released so far with multichannel 24/192, and you are "hinting" that a video disc (not dedicated audio disc) in the future may contain such track? Keep dreaming! My guess is you'll be lucky to ever see even a 5.1 24/96 lossless soundtrack on an HD DVD/BR disc. Probably most of them will be 24/48.
Well one hint might be that the Toshiba players will output true Dolby Digital HD over the 2 channel output and also the hd-dvd title "Phantom of the Opera" is encoded with DDHD .I believe it's the only title so far with DDHD.
Check out the back of the case at dvdtown.

All this talk about the different formats supported and how we can get them out of the player yet no discussion about how we might only be able to get two channels out of it. This doesn't make sense.
If you haven't already, you might want to read the first post in this thread. It may answer some of your questions about audio options.

The first 3 titles from Warner all include a 5.1 channel Dolby Digital Plus soundtrack, which supports a maximum bitrate almost 5 times that of standard Dolby Digital used on DVDs. This can be output as 5.1 channel analog, 5.1 channel digital PCM over HDMI, or downcoverted to standard Dolby Digital and output over SPDIF coax or optical. So there should be no problem getting more than two channels of high quality audio with the new Toshiba player, it's only Dolby TrueHD that is limited to two channels.

All this talk about the different formats supported and how we can get them out of the player yet no discussion about how we might only be able to get two channels out of it.

That's two more channels of lossless audio than you'll get out of any of the first-generation Blu-Ray players.

Well one hint might be that the Toshiba players will output true Dolby Digital HD over the 2 channel output and also the hd-dvd title "Phantom of the Opera" is encoded with DDHD .I believe it's the only title so far with DDHD.
Check out the back of the case at dvdtown.

We were talking about hints of a 6 channel 24/192 lossless track. 2 channel 24/192, 6 ch 24/96 and 6 ch 24/48 don't qualify. I think we will never see a 6ch 24/192 track on any kind of disc. And this "probability", "hinted" somewhere was one of the reasons someone here stated as a reason not to purchase an existing HDMI AV Receiver - because it's only capable of 6ch 24/96.

We were talking about hints of a 6 channel 24/192 lossless track. 2 channel 24/192, 6 ch 24/96 and 6 ch 24/48 don't qualify. I think we will never see a 6ch 24/192 track on any kind of disc. And this "probability", "hinted" somewhere was one of the reasons someone here stated as a reason not to purchase an existing HDMI AV Receiver - because it's only capable of 6ch 24/96.
Did you read this post which I linked in my reply above? Someone in the business claims to be working on "some 6 channel 24/192 material for a Blu-ray demo disk". This is one of the hints I was talking about. That doesn't mean that we will ever see one for sale, but it indicates people are looking at the possibilities of these new disc formats. These formats haven't even launched, it's pretty early to be saying "never" about something which is technically possible.

I was just throwing the info out there because it seemed relevant to the discussion in this thread. I never suggested anyone should hold off on buying the current HDMI receivers which are limited to 24/96 for 5.1 channels. In fact I already own a Yamaha HTR-5990 and am not worried about it. I don't know if I could even hear the difference between 24/48 and 24/96, much less 24/192 since I have never done any kind of test.

We don't yet know what quality is used for the 5.1 channel TrueHD soundtrack on Phantom of the Opera.

why stop at 6 channel? why not go to 8? or 9 (7.2)... how about 10.2? :)

Seriously though, what's the story with 7.1 output streams? Will they be common or supported? I see with analog on the Toshibas, there is only 5.1 outs, can the DACs do a 7.1 stream (of any form)?

why stop at 6 channel? why not go to 8? or 9 (7.2)... how about 10.2? :)

Seriously though, what's the story with 7.1 output streams? Will they be common or supported? I see with analog on the Toshibas, there is only 5.1 outs, can the DACs do a 7.1 stream (of any form)?

The whole audio scene confuses me. For example if I bought a 7.1 receiver will it work if I only have a 5.1 speaker system?

No problem running a 5.1 setup with a 7.1 receiver. You just set the unused back channels as "None" during setup.

No problem running a 5.1 setup with a 7.1 receiver. You just set the unused back channels as "None" during setup.

Thank you. The sales guy at BestBuy couldn't answer that simple question last week.

why stop at 6 channel? why not go to 8? or 9 (7.2)... how about 10.2? :)

Seriously though, what's the story with 7.1 output streams? Will they be common or supported? I see with analog on the Toshibas, there is only 5.1 outs, can the DACs do a 7.1 stream (of any form)?
Both HD-DVD and Blu-ray claim support of more than 5.1 channels. But for the HD-DVD lauch players I have seen no mention of anything over 5.1. I believe the Blu-ray situation is the same, but I haven't seen all the spec sheets. If any of them supported 7.1 you would expect them to be making a big deal about it. If you search around in these forums you will find some discussion of how few movies were ever mixed for a home format at more than 5.1 so it may not matter for a while. Personally I don't care since I have a small theater with no room for rear speakers, but some people in these forums are pretty upset about the lack of 8 channel support in the launch players saying the won't buy until it is available.

7.1 channel support will likely be one of the enhancements in next generation players and future titles.

Over in the Blu-ray Software forum there is a lengthy discussion about audio capabilities or HD-DVD and Blu-ray. This post contains a much more detailed description of audio options than I provided in the first post of this thread. I also added this link to the first post.

Over in the Blu-ray Software forum there is a lengthy discussion about audio capabilities or HD-DVD and Blu-ray. This post contains a much more detailed description of audio options than I provided in the first post of this thread. I also added this link to the first post.
Interesting post(your provided link), so it appears there is a difference between the audio capabilities of the A1 and the XA1. If I read it correctly, the A1 can only output the standard DVD audio, DD and DTS, through it's analog 5.1 outputs, whereas the XA1 can output the "converted to analog" HiRez audio streams through it's 5.1 analog outputs. It appears the A1 does not have the audio decoders that the XA1 has.

Interesting post(your provided link), so it appears there is a difference between the audio capabilities of the A1 and the XA1. If I read it correctly, the A1 can only output the standard DVD audio, DD and DTS, through it's analog 5.1 outputs, whereas the XA1 can output the "converted to analog" HiRez audio streams through it's 5.1 analog outputs. It appears the A1 does not have the audio decoders that the XA1 has.

No, The Toshiba site lists similar DACs in both machines (192/24). It appears there would be no reason you couldn't get the DTS HD and DD PLUS through the analog outputs as the decoders and DACs are there (in the HDA1) to do it!

No, The Toshiba site lists similar DACs in both machines (96/24). It appears there would be no reason you couldn't get the DTS HD and DD PLUS through the analog outputs as the decoders and DACs are there to do it!
That's what I originally thought, but Jonathon Teller's post in the other thread seems to indicate otherwise. He could be wrong I suppose, but the info seems to be fairly detailed as he makes exceptions between the 2 players when talking about outputting HiRez audio on the analog outputs. :confused:

I guess we'll know in about a week...I still can't believe there is no manual available for these machines yet..

I'd also like to know if HDMI 1.3 will be possible on either of these machines via a firmware upgrade??

I don't think so, I think it requires some new hardware.

If I have the Denon AVR-5805, should I use the Analog 5.1 outs for the DD+ and DTS-HD? Or use HDMI out of the player Into the HDMI In of the reciever for better sound?

I'd also like to know if HDMI 1.3 will be possible on either of these machines via a firmware upgrade??

I know this is a bit vague and controversial, but my thoughts, based on what I know about digitized audio and what is available on the consumer FAQ page on the HDMI site (http://www.hdmi.org/consumer/faq.asp), I believe that this, and 1080p (whatever flavor), will be provided through a firmware/software upgrade. These new players (both HD-DVD and BD) are relatively powerful computers in their own right.

Just an opinion...please no flaming ;)

okay my receiver has 7.1 analog inputs how can I get 7.1 from a 5.1 analog output?

I know it can be done its really going to be 6.1. My guess would be 2 matrix the analog SR, SL but is there an easier way dvdfile hinted about one. I do not want to introduce any additional gear at this point to do this knowing that my first player will someday be moved into another room when a dual player comes out. However I would still like to somehow activate the ex flags since I have a 7.1 setup.

If I have the Denon AVR-5805, should I use the Analog 5.1 outs for the DD+ and DTS-HD? Or use HDMI out of the player Into the HDMI In of the reciever for better sound?
I would guess that a high end receiver like the 5805 has better DACs than the new Toshiba players, so using HDMI would likely be the best choice.

Interesting post(your provided link), so it appears there is a difference between the audio capabilities of the A1 and the XA1. If I read it correctly, the A1 can only output the standard DVD audio, DD and DTS, through it's analog 5.1 outputs, whereas the XA1 can output the "converted to analog" HiRez audio streams through it's 5.1 analog outputs. It appears the A1 does not have the audio decoders that the XA1 has.
I don't believe that is the case. The A1 spec sheet says:
-Onboard Dolby® Digital, Dolby® Digital Plus, Dolby® TrueHD (2-ch), DTS and DTS-HD Decoding with 5.1 Analog Audio outputs
-Multi-Channel 24-Bit/192kHz audio DACs
-Built in multi-channel decoders for Dolby® Digital, Dolby® Digital Plus, Dolby® TrueHD (2ch), DTS and DTS-HD will bring improved fidelity and sonic realism to the soundtracks
See them for yourself at:
http://www.*********************/images/pdf/HD-A1.pdf
http://www.*********************/images/pdf/HD-XA1.pdf

Yes, I've seen that. In the post you linked to earlier is the following statement,

Toshiba's HD-DVD players internally decode DD, DTS, DD+ and DTHD. DD, DTS and DD+ are all limited to 5.1-channel output. DTHD is limited to 2-channel output. When these formats are decoded inside the player, they end up as a 5.1 channel (or 2-channel in the case of DTHD) uncompressed PCM bitstream, and that is what comes out of the HDMI connection and goes to your receiver. Alternately, it can be sent through a DAC inside the player and come out the 5.1 analogue outputs on the more expensive HD-XA1 player.

That second underlined part is what confuses me, the poster distinguishes HD-XA1 as being capable instead of lumping the two players together.

Reading into what isn't said in the above, it seems to incicate that the HD-XA1 can pass decoded HiRez audio through the 5.1 analog, whereas the HD-A1 cannot.

Who knows, we'll find out soon enough I guess, still can't believe there is no manual available for these players, especially being days away from being sold.

Just give me lossless 5.1 Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD over HDMI 1.1 ( and
also analog to hold me over until I get the Anthem AVM 40 ) and I will
be happy...

... or give me death. :)

That second underlined part is what confuses me, the poster distinguishes HD-XA1 as being capable instead of lumping the two players together.

Reading into what isn't said in the above, it seems to incicate that the HD-XA1 can pass decoded HiRez audio through the 5.1 analog, whereas the HD-A1 cannot.
The poster in that other thread seemed very knowledgable, but could still be wrong. I would interpret the quote you included to mean the A1 won't output anything as 5.1 analog including std DD and DTS, not just the new formats. There has been information (or misinformation) posted on the internet which has led people to believe the A1 doesn't support 5.1 channel analog output and he may have read some of that. It has led to a lot of confusion and discussion in these forums. The Toshiba spec sheets are pretty clear and definite that 5.1 channel analog output is supported for all the decoded formats. I would trust it over any other information.

I would guess that a high end receiver like the 5805 has better DACs than the new Toshiba players, so using HDMI would likely be the best choice.

Thanks, but after reading more posts, DD+ and DTS-HD won't pass thru HDMI 1.1, only 1.3. So I guess the analog 5.1 outs are the way to go then? Sorry, I just want to be sure to get the most out of the new format. :confused: :)

Thanks, but after reading more posts, DD+ and DTS-HD won't pass thru HDMI 1.1, only 1.3. So I guess the analog 5.1 outs are the way to go then? Sorry, I just want to be sure to get the most out of the new format. :confused: :)
I realize that, but I thought you meant passing 5.1 channel PCM over HDMI. Does the 5805 accept 5.1 channel PCM over HDMI? If it is HDMI 1.1 it probably does, but check your manual. If so, that would probably be a better choice than analog.

Thanks, but after reading more posts, DD+ and DTS-HD won't pass thru HDMI 1.1, only 1.3. So I guess the analog 5.1 outs are the way to go then? Sorry, I just want to be sure to get the most out of the new format. :confused: :)

As long as the HD-DVD player decodes the format in the player and sends
PCM over HDMI 1.1 to your receiver you are good to go...

OK, Real Answer people... Am I going to get real DTS HD 5.1 out of the A1 - or the XA1 through Analog? Or just Plain DTS?

-SOWK

1st HD DVD Players To Decode All Mandatory, Optional Audio Codecs (http://www.twice.com/article/CA6323699.html)

From "This Week in Consumer Electronics"

OK, Real Answer people... Am I going to get real DTS HD 5.1 out of the A1 - or the XA1 through Analog? Or just Plain DTS?

-SOWK

Based on some previous posts, I think it might only regurgitate standard DTS (but probably at 1.5Mbps). DTS-HD might be downrezzed, but there's conflicting information on it...

Unfortunately, there aren't any DTS-HD titles that I'm aware of where you could actually test this. Maybe one of the Japanese releases has DTS-HD, but the only US launch title I was aware of that even had a DTS soundtrack, was Chronos:

Per Amazon: Hi-Res DTS 96/24 Digital Surround Sound

Not sure if any of the Universal titles will have DTS/DTS-HD...

As far as Dolby TrueHD, I think everyone is pretty aware that it will only decode TrueHD into 2-channels... Though with Phantom, we can get people to verify that in a week.

1st HD DVD Players To Decode All Mandatory, Optional Audio Codecs (http://www.twice.com/article/CA6323699.html)

From "This Week in Consumer Electronics"

Unfortunately the statement by the HD-DVD promotion group is still vague since other than the possibility, and hope, that the 5.1 analog outs will provide the true HD signal, the other options must be downsampled as anything accepting those outputs won't have the decoders necessary to decode the HD audio signals. Now, if at a minimum it downsampled to say DVD-Audio or even SACD, I would be all set.

OK, Real Answer people... Am I going to get real DTS HD 5.1 out of the A1 - or the XA1 through Analog? Or just Plain DTS?
Unfortunately we may not have a real answer until people get players and start testing them. A recent Toshiba ad in Sound & Vision magazine contained this disclaimer in small print at the bottom.

Movies in true high-def > Stunning images > Enhanced audio > Plays standard DVDs & CDs > Uniquely interactive

Discs may require an HDMI or HDCP capable DVI input on your HDTV or HD monitor for high definition playback. Dolby Digital Plus support for up to 5.1 channels. Dolby True HD support for up to 2 channels. DTS-HD support for up to 5.1 channels of DTS core only. Some standard discs may not be compatible. Firmware update may be required for some interactive features depending on content, which may also require an always-on broadband Internet connection. Because HDDVD is a new format, certain disc, digital connection, and other compatibility issues are possible. If you encounter compatibility problems, please contact Toshiba Customer Support....

This seems to indicate that it does not support all the formats lumped under DTS-HD. Not as bad as it sounds since DTS Core can supposedly go up to 1500 kbps. So it could still be high quality audio, but not lossless.

Interesting post(your provided link), so it appears there is a difference between the audio capabilities of the A1 and the XA1. If I read it correctly, the A1 can only output the standard DVD audio, DD and DTS, through it's analog 5.1 outputs, whereas the XA1 can output the "converted to analog" HiRez audio streams through it's 5.1 analog outputs. It appears the A1 does not have the audio decoders that the XA1 has.
I went back to the linked thread and asked the person who wrote it (Jonathan) if he had information indicating that the A1 doesn't output 5.1 analog. He replied in this post. Short answer is he just hadn't seen any information on the A1 that definitely said it had 5.1 analog out, so he only made the statement about the XA1 because he was sure that it does. So he doesn't have any information which contradicts what is in the spec sheet which says that the A1 has 5.1 channel analog out for all decoded formats.

1st HD DVD Players To Decode All Mandatory, Optional Audio Codecs (http://www.twice.com/article/CA6323699.html)

From "This Week in Consumer Electronics"

I wonder how they reconcile claiming all optional audio codec support when the HD-XA1/A1 only decode 2 channel DTHD and 5.1 DTS HD?

Those are the mandatory requirements for all HD DVD players. There's no extension to the optional (up to 7.1).

Gary

I went back to the linked thread and asked the person who wrote it (Jonathan) if he had information indicating that the A1 doesn't output 5.1 analog. He replied in this post. Short answer is he just hadn't seen any information on the A1 that definitely said it had 5.1 analog out, so he only made the statement about the XA1 because he was sure that it does. So he doesn't have any information which contradicts what is in the spec sheet which says that the A1 has 5.1 channel analog out for all decoded formats.
Yes, I saw that over in the other thread, thanks. :)

You know talk about 7.1 and above is interesting but how does it apply to the general home theater owner? I realize there will be some with rooms big enough to really benefit but how big would your room have to be?
Mine is 12X17 and I am running 6.1 when it is on a disk and I am not sure I really notice a difference.

My HT is roughly the same size, DarrinH, and I notice the difference when a nice DTS ES disc is playing; but I have a 7.1 set-up and that might fill up the back area a tad bit more than a single back speaker. Can't wait to play around with the various options these new players will offer, whatever they end up being. :D

There was recently a flurry of discussion about audio in the Hands On With Japanese Toshiba Player thread. Attached is a table provided by Amir from Microsoft. It was translated from the Japanese XA1 manual. It should help answer a lot of the questions people have been asking about HDMI audio output. The info probably applies to the A1 as well.

A few notes on the table.

It is still not clear what type of bit stream is passed for DD+ and DTS-HD if the "Bit Stream" option is selected. Is it the full bitstream? Or is it downconverted to standard DD and DTS Core? The latter seems more likely since it would work with current receivers. If it was possible to pass the full bitstream I would expect two Bit Stream options, one for current receivers and one for future receivers that will support the new formats.

The *3 Down Sampling PCM notation seems to mean down converted to 48 kHz since the 48kHz rows are the highest rates that don't contain *3.

Bottom line seems to be that the best option is to pick PCM output if you have a receiver with an HDMI input that will accept multi-channel PCM. This should provide the highest quality 5.1 sound.

If you don't have such a receiver but have 5.1 channel analog inputs, it's probably best to use the analog outputs which I expect will convert the PCM output streams listed in the table to analog using the built in "Multi-Channel 24-Bit/192kHz audio DACs".

If your receiver doesn't have 5.1 channel analog inputs either, then the Bit Stream mode should at least pass downconverted DD and DTS (which could still be higher bit rates than most DVDs) to your receiver.

Once there are receivers that accept a DD+ or DTS-HD bitstream, that might be the best option for playing back those formats if the player does not downconvert them.

DTS-HD is the only format, based on today's findings, that will be able to give us REAL high res multichannel audio with these players. We need to push for DTS-HD content now.

Once again. I don't know why you keep saying you will get DTS-HD multichannel lossless with the A1/XA1 when it EXPLICITLY states "DTS-HD support for up to 5.1 channels of DTS CORE ONLY".

And what's with need to upgrade your receiver to support DTS-HD/TruHD? If you want 7.1 lossless just wait for a HD DVD player that can output 7.1 DTS-HD/TruHD via analog outputs. The 3806 has 8 analog inputs.

I see where you're coming from rdjam. You want this first generation player AND HD Audio surround. And theoretically, IF a DTS-HD 7.1 bitstream can be be passed via HDMI, then the HD-XA1,A1 will be able to support lossless 7.1 provided your AVR has a DTS-HD 7.1 decoder. The pitfalls of being bleeding edge eh? =D

Personally, I'm going to wait until players are released that have 1080p output, 5.1 TruHD(or 7.1) and DTS-HD. These 1st gen players seem to be missing some key features.

In respect to the Dolby whitepaper I referenced in the other thread, I think what Dressler's getting at is, once we hit 2nd, 3rd gen players, they're all going to have full featured TruHD/DTS decoders and these players will be able to play lossless on current AVR's, so why upgrade your AVR? And I sort of agree, upgrading your AVR(SQ aside), you don't get any extra features over upgrading your 1st gen player to a 2nd gen player with a proper TruHD decoder. AND you might get 1080p to boot on the 2nd gen players.

I'm with you on running analog cables, BUT the fact that it's possible for those without HDMI receivers is great. They don't have to upgrade their receivers, they just need to wait for 5.1/7.1 TruHD decoder players. I'll wait for the 5.1/7.1 decoder players and just use 5.1 LPCM TruHD/DTS-HD over HDMI with my 3806.

Dolby's approach makes more sense, since it permits the player to convert all channels to PCM to be transmitted to the AVR. This in turn permits the player to mix sounds from comentaries and the like before transmitting the PCM to the AVR. DTS wants the signal to be transmitted as a bitstream , which may mean no mixing by the player and only new AVRs having the capability of receiving DTS-HD.

Just give me lossless 5.1 DTS-HD and I will be happy...

I have a question for this thread. When I get my HD-A1 (next week/maybe?). I would love to hook the 5.1 analog outs from the player to my receiver. Unfortunately I only have 1 set of 5.1 analog ins on the receiver and those are being occupied by my DVD-A/SACD player. Now what do I do? Do I have to/or can I - buy a device that will take two separate sets of 5.1 analog ins and send 1 set of 5.1 analog outs to my receiver? (A/V switch box?) Does that piece of gear exist? It seems like a pain in the butt. Or do I just have to decide which DVD player uses it's analog outs?

Just posted useful info on http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7482770&&#post7482770

We should decide to have the discussion in one place :).

Amir

I have a question for this thread. When I get my HD-A1 (next week/maybe?). I would love to hook the 5.1 analog outs from the player to my receiver. Unfortunately I only have 1 set of 5.1 analog ins on the receiver and those are being occupied by my DVD-A/SACD player. Now what do I do? Do I have to/or can I - buy a device that will take two separate sets of 5.1 analog ins and send 1 set of 5.1 analog outs to my receiver? (A/V switch box?) Does that piece of gear exist? It seems like a pain in the butt. Or do I just have to decide which DVD player uses it's analog outs?


http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1524181&Sku=C184-40324&SRCCODE=PRICEGRABBER&CMP=OTC-PRICEGRABBER

Or better yet this one http://www.smarthome.com/7772.html

and another one http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&kw=SIVS502&is=REG&Q=&O=productlist&sku=392122

Here is one just for switching digital audio http://www.smarthome.com/77707.html

Do I have to/or can I - buy a device that will take two separate sets of 5.1 analog ins and send 1 set of 5.1 analog outs to my receiver? (A/V switch box?) Does that piece of gear exist?
A quick web search turned up one, but it is over $400.

http://www.laaudiofile.com/mas3.html

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1524181&Sku=C184-40324&SRCCODE=PRICEGRABBER&CMP=OTC-PRICEGRABBER

Or better yet this one http://www.smarthome.com/7772.html

and another one http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&kw=SIVS502&is=REG&Q=&O=productlist&sku=392122

Here is one just for switching digital audio http://www.smarthome.com/77707.html
None of those will work for what LordofDoubleD is talking about, they do not have enough inputs.

The Zektor device is exactly what he will need, Zektor makes very good quality equipment BTW, used a component video switcher of theirs for years, worked flawlessly.

Just posted useful info on http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7482770&&#post7482770

We should decide to have the discussion in one place :).
Thanks Amir. Hopefully that puts the issue to bed for DD+, the A1 and XA1 will not pass a full DD+ bit stream over HDMI. If the Bit Stream option is selected, it will be converted to standard DD before being passed over HDMI. I would be surprised if the answer for DTS-HD is different.

The good news is that they will NOT down convert before decoding a DD+ audio soundtrack for output as 5.1 channel PCM or 5.1 channel analog. So these paths should reproduce DD+ in all it's glory. It may not be lossless or 7.1 channels, but it could certainly be a big step up from the audio on standard DVDs. And it seems every HD-DVD will have DD+, most with 5.1 channels in multiple languages. A nice bonus for those who don't speak English since most standard DVDs only had stereo for languages other than English.

I started this thread hoping to keep the HD-DVD audio discussion in one place, but it seems to keep popping up all over the place. :) There was even a big debate about HD-DVD audio going on in a Blu-ray Software thread. :eek:

So far the info in the first post of this thread seems to hold up. I will review it this weekend to see if it needs any revisions or updates.

None of those will work for what LordofDoubleD is talking about, they do not have enough inputs.

The Zektor device is exactly what he will need, Zektor makes very good quality equipment BTW, used a component video switcher of theirs for years, worked flawlessly.


Huh the Sima 502-5 has five analog audio inputs, three coax digital inputs and two optical inputs. It will convert the analog audio to digital and output to a single coax or optical output. It also will convert composite and s-video to component video. How many inputs does he need? :)

None of those will work for what LordofDoubleD is talking about, they do not have enough inputs.

The Zektor device is exactly what he will need, Zektor makes very good quality equipment BTW, used a component video switcher of theirs for years, worked flawlessly.

Thanks keenan,
The Zektor is exactly what I need. Looks like it will work perfectly. Now I need to scrape another $450. :)

Huh the Sima 502-5 has five analog audio inputs, three coax digital inputs and two optical inputs. It will convert the analog audio to digital and output to a single coax or optical output. It also will convert composite and s-video to component video. How many inputs does he need? :)
He needs two 5.1 analog sets for input and one set of 5.1 analog outputs. He needs to switch two 5.1 analog audio signals for feeding one set of 5.1 analog inputs on his recvr/pre-pro. :)

Thanks keenan,
The Zektor is exactly what I need. Looks like it will work perfectly. Now I need to scrape another $450. :)
Check the PowerBuy section of the forum, I seem to recall these were offered there awhile back.

The Zektor is exactly what I need. Looks like it will work perfectly. Now I need to scrape another $450. :)If money is tight, how about just using two manual switchers for RCAs, like from RadioShack? You just need 2 of them if each works for 3 cables. Being direct connect I would think they would have enough bandwidth. Might be a pain depending on how often you need to switch things, but a lot cheaper.

--Darin

Thanks keenan,
The Zektor is exactly what I need. Looks like it will work perfectly. Now I need to scrape another $450.

The MAS3 is now discontinued but Zektor is now suggesting the use of their HDS4.1 (which retails for $259) as an alternative. It provides 4 inputs and 1 output.

http://www.zektor.com/hds41/index.html

I was looking for a solution to this same problem and appreciate everyone's suggestions.

Scott

The MAS3 is now discontinued but Zektor is now suggesting the use of their HDS4.1 (which retails for $259) as an alternative. It provides 4 inputs and 1 output.

http://www.zektor.com/hds41/index.html

I was looking for a solution to this same problem and appreciate everyone's suggestions.

Scott
That would work, even though it's labeled for video it still has 6 analog inputs for each device so it should work fine for 5.1 analog audio. Teaching a remote to work the box is a bit tricky but easily done.

(I have a HDS4 I don't need anymore, if anyone is interested, PM me)

There is an article in WSR #106 which would seem to indicate that discrete formats beyond 5.1 (with an occasional 6.1 thrown in) might be a moot point for the forseeable future. There was a discussion format with 8 well regarded recording engineers/surround mixers (including Elliot Scheiner) and they pretty much all agreed that they do not forsee their mixes exceeding the 5.1 format, if additional channels are needed they are comfortable letting the manufacturers provide various decoding schemes for the additional channel.

Reasons given include:
1) It is much more difficult to downmix a 6.1 (let alone a 7.1) mix to 5.1 then it is to derive additional channels from a 5.1 mix.

2) It is the manufacturers who are driving the need for additional channels beyond 5.1, not the studios (both music and movies).

3) There are a lot of inconsistencies with the way people have their 5.1 speakers configured, a 7.1 configuration adds too many variables/complexities to try to assure that everyone has a similar listening experience.

All in all a very interesting read, and would seem to indicate that even with the capability of the new HD disc formats to provide 7.1 (or higher) discrete channels, the source material will continue to be 5.1 and decoding to additional channels will be a function of the downstream processor/receiver.

Yes, unfortunately a lot of the above is true. More channels is not in the cards in a mass market way. Higher resolution maybe. But not more channels.

Amir

There is an article in WSR #106 which would seem to indicate that discrete formats beyond 5.1 (with an occasional 6.1 thrown in) might be a moot point for the forseeable future...
I read that article as well. It was interesting to hear how people in the business perceive adding more channels. It amazes me that people are so upset that the launch players don't support more than 5.1 given we probably wont see any content with more channels until later generation players are released. Even then it may only be a small percentage of titles that have more. Some people have even said they won't buy the first generation players for this reason alone. I would not deprive myself of enjoying HD movies for a year or more just because I couldn't get sound coming from behind my head.

I read that article as well. It was interesting to hear how people in the business perceive adding more channels. It amazes me that people are so upset that the launch players don't support more than 5.1 given we probably wont see any content with more channels until later generation players are released. Even then it may only be a small percentage of titles that have more. Some people have even said they won't buy the first generation players for this reason alone. I would not deprive myself of enjoying HD movies for a year or more just because I couldn't get sound coming from behind my head.

I had a 7.1 system up to a couple years ago and then went to a 6.1. I went to
a 5.1 a few months a go and I am not missing hardly anything at all. So few movie
soundtracks have a discrete rear channel and even those that do you might
notice it for a few seconds during the movie...

Give me lossless 5.1 - I could care less about additional channels ...

Give me lossless 5.1 - I could care less about additional channels ...

Amen, brother!

Hot off the presses. Attached is a PDF file scanned from the USA HD-A1 manual. Page 59 "Output sound conversion table". Enjoy. I have to go actually try it out now.

Edited April 17. I replaced the PDF scan. I pasted the updated HDMI table from the insert on page 59 and rescanned it.

Hot off the presses. Attached is a PDF file scanned from the USA HD-A1 manual. Enjoy. I have to go actually try it out now.

I wasn't able to download/open it. The link errored out.

Hot off the presses. Attached is a PDF file scanned from the USA HD-A1 manual. Page 59 "Output sound conversion table". Enjoy. I have to go actually try it out now.
I just discovered an update insert with corrections to the PDF I posted above. I haven't had time to determine if anything is different other than note *4. The update is attached.

Edited April 17. I removed the PDF since the update was added to the new scan above.

I wasn't able to download/open it. The link errored out.
I just tried it and it worked fine. Anyone else having problems? Maybe some who got can put it up on a web site and provide a link. I have to go play with the new toy right now.

I just tried it and it worked fine. Anyone else having problems? Maybe some who got can put it up on a web site and provide a link. I have to go play with the new toy right now.

I was able to download both pdf's without problems.

One of the lingering audio difference questions is now answered. The HD-A1 does have speaker setup and bass management built in. I just checked out the audio setup screens and confirmed it. See the attached images. Sorry about the angle of the shots, but I have a front projector and it's difficult to shoot straight on without casting a shadow.

I have also confirmed that I can get 5.1 channel PCM from the HD-A1 to my Yamaha HTR-5990 with HDMI input and pass the video on to my projector over HDMI. I went into the Yamaha Info screen to see what it reported while playing Last Samurai. See the attached image. Curiously it reports sampling as 96 kHz, which I would not have expected since several people here have said virtually all movies are 24/48. Maybe it is just reporting the maximum that the receiver supports in this mode. I haven't had much time to watch and listen, but so far the sound quality seems very good.

Great info John, thanks, just picked up the player myself.

There have been some statements above about upconverting DVD's over component video I'm not sure I agree with. From experience of the HTPC forum the main determinent of whether modern graphics cards, approved players, etc. can upconvert over component is not whether the DVD is copyrighted, has ICT (none of them do), or is CSS protected. It is whether the DVD is also protected by Macrovision. This is easy to bypass on HTPC's but likely hard to bypass for the moment on HD DVD players.

I think the original agreement on limiting resolution over component was actually in the DMCA (for VCR's) and at that time grandfathered any computer displays or formats in common use before some date (2000?). But that part seems to have become lost somewhere along the way. Anyway, it appears if you want upconversion over component you will have to copy your legacy DVD's, removing Macrovision.

- Tom

I tried out Phantom of the Opera to test the TrueHD Soundtrack. When I tried to select English Dolby TrueHD it popped this message (see attached image).
We have detected that your player does not support multi-channel Dolby TrueHD audio. Please select a Dolby Digital audio track to enjoy multi-channel.
What was really weird is that after clicking OK, the only sound I got was coming from the left speaker. I had expected it might output stereo. I went back to DD+ and checked my right speaker. It seems to be working OK. Not sure if this is an issue with my receiver or what the A1 output, but that is what happened.

The good news is that the DD+ soundtrack sounds spectacular, at least to me. I don't have the std DVD for comparison, but we did rent it a couple of months ago. I would say the DD+ sound quality is much higher, even without being lossless.

With Phantom of the Opera, using the optical out from the HD-A1 to a Denon 3805, the 3805 sees the 5.1 signal as DTS from some odd reason. thebland also noticed this with his Lexicon pre-pro.

<Edit> Both discs, Phantom and Samurai show as DTS on the 3805 input, cannot get DD to come up...weird.

With Phantom of the Opera, using the optical out from the HD-A1 to a Denon 3805, the 3805 sees the 5.1 signal as DTS from some odd reason. thebland also noticed this with his Lexicon pre-pro.

<Edit> Both discs, Phantom and Samurai show as DTS on the 3805 input, cannot get DD to come up...weird.
I read this over in the big thread as well. Weird. So far I haven't tried anything other than PCM over HDMI. If I get a chance I will try bitstream on my Yamaha receiver to see what it does. Maybe sometime on Sunday.

With Phantom of the Opera, using the optical out from the HD-A1 to a Denon 3805, the 3805 sees the 5.1 signal as DTS from some odd reason. thebland also noticed this with his Lexicon pre-pro.

<Edit> Both discs, Phantom and Samurai show as DTS on the 3805 input, cannot get DD to come up...weird.

Change the SPDIF setting to bitstream, otherwise it wont work right i believe.

To answer one other question that was discussed earlier in this thread. With my Yamaha HTR-5990 receiver it seems that all of the speaker setting, bass management and surround processing options work with multi-channel PCM input over HDMI. I would expect other HDMI 1.1 receivers to be the same. None of this works for 5.1 analog input on my Yamaha, although it does on some receivers and processors. On mine 5.1 analog is just a pass through to the amps.

does anyone know if the arcam avr-300 can do any processing on a signal coming thru its analog inputs? I really want to use the new DD+ but don't want to give up my back surrounds.

Change the SPDIF setting to bitstream, otherwise it wont work right i believe.
That's what I have it set at now, I'm going to try some other settings later tonight.


jschefdog, yes, please let me know how it turns out.

I tried the PCM and Bitstream but still had no luck.

Standard DVDs however, all worked fine!

Is there actually a standard Dolby Digital track on these discs for the HD-DVD content? The packaging lists DD+, maybe my receiver doesn't know how to extract the DD stream...?

From the other thread,





Originally Posted by Aaron Davis
I think I might have made a small discovery.. If you look at the audio table, it shows that bitstream mode, on HD-DVD Advanced Content is a DTS Bitstream. Advanced Content is Toshiba slang for iHD, meaning all the menus. Maybe your receiver is locking on to this DTS mode for iHD and not kicking to DD when needed? Just a thought from the info in the manual.

I think you're on to something there, if you look at the chart it doesn't even show a standard Dobly Digital 5.1 output for a HD-DVD disc, it lists DD under standard DVD only.

Hmmm Good observations.....I suppose I will exchange my unit when there is stock.

Unless you guys have some way to sweet talk the staff at Best Buy, I'll be waiting till Tuesday to give my review. I have the device in the rack set up but none of the locals could be enticed to sell me any titles.

So maybe I'm not a sweet guy or something. :D

Art

Hmmm Good observations.....I suppose I will exchange my unit when there is stock.

Jeff.. I can't imagine that it's a defective player, esp since others are haveing this problem.... DD+ is a new technology, and I assume this is not going to be an isloated issue.. can you say 'firmware upgrade?'... ;)

I am sure that the unit looks great on you proj...

I have a Yamaha HTR-5890 and I too experience my receiver reading "Samurai" as DTS and experience low volume.

Unless you guys have some way to sweet talk the staff at Best Buy, I'll be waiting till Tuesday to give my review. I have the device in the rack set up but none of the locals could be enticed to sell me any titles.

So maybe I'm not a sweet guy or something. :D

Art

send in a "babe" ;)

I have a couple of daughters who would qualify but that seems a liitle low even for me.


Art

Jeff.. I can't imagine that it's a defective player, esp since others are haveing this problem.... DD+ is a new technology, and I assume this is not going to be an isloated issue.. can you say 'firmware upgrade?'... ;)

I am sure that the unit looks great on you proj...
I don't think the players are defective either, in the sense that they don't output DD 5.1 over coax or optical, my guess is that it's a firmware bug as you have noted.

Maybe Roger Dressler of Dolby has a clue to what is happening...?

I have a couple of daughters who would qualify but that seems a liitle low even for me.


Art

I see that you are not willing to "go the extra mile" in this instance :D

I'm wondering about this audio issue. There's clearly something up, because it's being reported by multiple folks.

I think (looking at the revised manual pages) that if you have a receiver that can accept multichannel PCM over HDMI, then that is the best config for you. If you do this, you will need to set the player to PCM output. In iHD advanced more discs, it will default to this also, based on the manual. In both these situations, you should be getting 96/24 5.1 audio.

If you don't have HDMI, I feel that the best option will instead be to use the Analog outputs. This will also give you 96/24 5.1 output (converted to analog of course) in iHD advanced mode discs. In Standard mode, you will get the full DD+ or DTS-HD 5.1 audio over analog as well. TruHD on POTO is a keeper for future players, so don't select it.

If you do decide to use coax or optical, expect to get 48 khz audio, and I'm getting the impression that it encodes to DTS on the fly for this output, after mixing.

The only fly in the ointment is that when you go analog you lose most of your audio control and management, as it's all done in PCM before converting to analog for output. Analog may get sent straight to speakers on units like my Denon. So some may prefer coax or optical if they don't have HDMI.

Does this make any sense? :)

I get a big "Thump" after I stop the movie. I'm using HDMI to my reciever, settings "auto" from the HD-A1. Do I have a defect? Anyone else have this kind of feedback? Also the volume output Is a lot lower than SD-DVD's.

How about those that report this "Audio as weak-sounding DTS" bug drop a post here with their A1 Firmware revision, and their method of connection?

I get a big "Thump" after I stop the movie. I'm using HDMI to my reciever, settings "auto" from the HD-A1. Do I have a defect? Anyone else have this kind of feedback? Also the volume output Is a lot lower than SD-DVD's.

Are you referring to the audio "feedback" that the player provides when accessing the menu, stopping playback, etc.?

If so, you can turn that off.

Yeah, I think you hear a thump sound when you try to do something in a menu that you can't-not allowed to, so to speak, otherwise it makes a dinging sound.

If money is tight, how about just using two manual switchers for RCAs, like from RadioShack? You just need 2 of them if each works for 3 cables. Being direct connect I would think they would have enough bandwidth. Might be a pain depending on how often you need to switch things, but a lot cheaper.

--Darin

Darin,
Great idea. Actually built the switching device you talked about today. I rustled up another 6 RCA cables and bought I second two device switch box from Radio Shack (14.99) It's a lot of cables but it works like a charm. Watched Phantom through my analog inputs tonight and was A/Bing DD+ and DD not a huge difference but more of a "feel" thing. DD is cleaner but DD+ is richer with warmer bottom-end. I'm going to watch it in True HD in the next couple of days.

BTW I'm sure that more than a few of us with DVD-A/SACD players are going to need two sets of 5.1 analog inputs and Darin's idea is a great way to check out DD+ until the new recievers come out or you upgrade to one that accepts multi-channel audio through HDMI. All you need is 2 - two device A/V switchers from Radio Shack and 9 stereo pair RCA cables. There are three inputs for each device R,L, and Video. I set it up so that:

Switcher One-
Device A - DVD-A - FR, FL, and I used the yellow video for C
Device B - HD-DVD - FR, FL, and I used the yellow video for C
Then I sent the output to my receivers - FR, FL, and C

Switcher Two-
Device A - DVD-A - RR, RL, and I used the yellow video for SW
Device B - HD-DVD - RR, RL, and I used the yellow video for SW
Then I sent the output to my receivers - RR, RL, and SW

It's a little bit of a pain (no remote) but when I want to watch HD-DVD I click Device B on both switchers and when I want to listen/watch a DVD-A/SACD I click Device A on both switchers.

Hopefully this will come in handy.

-DD

Since I'm experiencing the "DTS bug" with optical.....I'm going to try analog cables. Can someone recommend good RCA cables to use? How are the ones that come with the player? I have a few other similar to them but have never used them.

Are you referring to the audio "feedback" that the player provides when accessing the menu, stopping playback, etc.?

If so, you can turn that off.

Yeah, I think you hear a thump sound when you try to do something in a menu that you can't-not allowed to, so to speak, otherwise it makes a dinging sound.

Guys I know the "swish" sounds during the menu are normal. I'm talking about all my subs going "Thump" when I Stop the movie. I hooked up the analog cables, and I didn't hear It. Must be the player, I'll wait for the first firmware upgrade to happen, mabye that will fix It, or I could always..... :rolleyes:

I get a big "Thump" after I stop the movie. I'm using HDMI to my reciever, settings "auto" from the HD-A1. Do I have a defect? Anyone else have this kind of feedback? Also the volume output Is a lot lower than SD-DVD's.
I am using HDMI to a Yamaha receiver with Auto which in my case results in multi-channel PCM being passed. I have gotten some thumps and nasty pops when starting everything up or stopping the movie. It may be unique to the PCM output, but I haven't tried any others yet. Since this is the first time I tried MC PCM I wasn't sure if the pops were coming from the A1 or the receiver.

Hey guys,

I'm fairly clueless about DD+, but I was wondering if the analog inputs on my AVR130 would be the right kind for me to able to run it properly? (I've never even looked at those things until I heard about DD+ haha, so I know nothing about them). Also, what sort of cabling would I need to use to hook it up?

Jeff

I bought a Phillips component switcher on ebay that will allow 4 inputs of 6 channel analog. The key is that it is a component switcher that also switches analog audio and composite video ... therefore 6 channels. I have DVD-A and SACD right now and am going to add the HD-DVD analog output when I get mine. There is even room for a Blu-Ray analog output in the future. At least until the HDMI 1.3 is worked out.


Rafael

Since I'm experiencing the "DTS bug" with optical.....I'm going to try analog cables. Can someone recommend good RCA cables to use? How are the ones that come with the player? I have a few other similar to them but have never used them.

Is it possible that this is a "feature" and not a "bug"? My understanding is that with HDMI comes encrypted audio. As part of the deal made with the HDMI cabal, unencrypted full-featured digital audio is not allowed to escape from "the system" just as video. So everybody has to chuck all their existing HT audio gear, and buy a single super-monster-deluxe HDMI AV Reciever/Processor/Switcher/DigitalRightsManager from one of the "approved" players. Everything else is now obsolete, thanks for playing.

If this is the case, I'll just have to wait until the Europeans come to our rescue and break this new Enigma system, making me a criminal for watching Hollywood's movies on hardware not blessed by the Kingmakers.

Andrew

PS. Did anyone read the EULA that comes with the firmware upgrade? Post 287.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=667248&page=10
Can you say unbalanced contract of adhesion? Their lawyers seem confused about Open Source code: governed by "EULAs" and called "Freeware" versus their code, which doesn't have a EULA, well, except for this one. And they can add, or remove features or documentation at will "without notice to you".

If I had one of these, I would not agree to the firmware update extortion. If the device fails in some manner because of defective firmware, I would send it back under warranty for correction. This contract gives them carte blanche to even spy on you and sell your personal information as convenient to them.

I get a big "Thump" after I stop the movie. I'm using HDMI to my reciever, settings "auto" from the HD-A1. Do I have a defect? Anyone else have this kind of feedback? Also the volume output Is a lot lower than SD-DVD's.


I also get crackles thumps and pops. Most prevalent when no disc is present. Using HDMI, Sharp LC45GXU. Also get one pop for each chapter forward, reverse jump.

I have not read this thread as it is just moving too fast. If I have posted something that was already posted, I am sorry.

If you have output set to bitstream, everything is currently decoded internally and mixed. (menu sounds, movie, etc...) and then it all goes through a real-time DTS encoder and sent out.

Here is some more info that may help. I have my A1 connected to a Yamaha HTR-5990 by HDMI. When I set the A1 HDMI output mode to Auto or PCM, it works fine. The Yamaha indicates it is getting 5.1 channel PCM and everything works great. Although as others have noted, I have to turn up the volume more than with my DVD player, the resulting sound quality is good.

I tried switching the A1 to Bitstream expecting to get some form of DD or maybe the DTS indicator people are getting over SPDIF. Instead, the Yamaha reports 2 channel PCM. Maybe this is due to note *2

*2 - Bitstream audio output is possible only when the connected HDMI device has bitstream decoding function. If not, sound is output in PCM (48kHz) format.

So the A1 must not think my receiver can handle whatever bitstream fomat it should send over HDMI with this setting. Weird, since I know my HDMI inputs can decode DD and DTS because it works with my standard DVD player over HDMI.

I also tried hooking up over SPDIF and also got the DTS indicator. But as soon as I switched my receiver the display said "HDMI Error 0" and stopped, probably because my receiver had switched from the HDMI input I was using. I didn't have time to mess with it more.

I tried out Phantom of the Opera to test the TrueHD Soundtrack. When I tried to select English Dolby TrueHD it popped this message (see attached image).

What was really weird is that after clicking OK, the only sound I got was coming from the left speaker...
Well I cannot reproduce this problem today. Now when I switch to TrueHD I do get two channel sound coming from the left and right speakers. My receiver still indicates it is receiving 5.1 channel PCM, but the other speakers have no sound. I set the receiver to 2 channel stereo output and tried switching between the DD+ and TrueHD soundtracks. Honestly I cannot hear much difference, they both sound very good. The clarity of the female leads voice is amazing.

The good news is that all of the surround field processing on my receiver seems to work with PCM, so if you want to convert the incoming TrueHD PCM two channel sound to one of the pseudo-multi-channel fields you can do it.

I have not read this thread as it is just moving too fast. If I have posted something that was already posted, I am sorry.

If you have output set to bitstream, everything is currently decoded internally and mixed. (menu sounds, movie, etc...) and then it all goes through a real-time DTS encoder and sent out.
So does that mean that people are getting sound over SPDIF? If so, why all the fuss? I'm confused, I thought people were getting no sound or static or something undesirable when using SPDIF.

The problem is it is being decoded and re-encoded in the player and then decoded again in your processor.

The problem is it is being decoded and re-encoded in the player and then decoded again in your processor.
So everything is working as it should and there is nothing wrong with last samarai or phantom of the opera? even if the output is 10db low?

So it's supposed to be coming out as Dolby Digital signal, but when the receiver gets the data it is being decoded as DTS?

Then that sounds like it's a definite problem...



If you have output set to bitstream, everything is currently decoded internally and mixed. (menu sounds, movie, etc...) and then it all goes through a real-time DTS encoder and sent out.

sspears, you say it's going through a real-time DTS encoder in the player before being sent out SPDIF...so does that mean the output is supposed to be DTS...? I'm a little confused by that statement..

jschefdog,

Apparently, all DD+ audio on HD-DVD movies passed to receiver as DTS. If your receiver doesn't support DTS, you will get no sound.
Yes, that is the issue...if you can decode DTS, you get sound..if you can't, no sound.

We are talking about DD+ not regular DD.
Yes, I'd have to re-read the audio info again, but my guess is that, either there is no DD 5.1 on these discs, or, that the player is not handling the extraction of DD 5.1 from the DolbyDigital+ encoded on the disc properly.

This is turning out to be what I had expected. To truly take advantage of the new audio formats one has to get a AVR or Pre-Pro that can use HDMI audio input. At least then you can take in 5.1 PCM multichannel audio now and do bass management, speaker distance settings, room eq (if desired), etc.

The hard thing would be waiting to get HDMI 1.3(2.0) and getting bitstream decode into 7.1.

Seems like S/PDIF is now dead for high end users. I liked the idea of IEEE-1394/Firewire/iLink but that may never catch on.

Bob
(waiting for my AVS club pre-order HD-A1)

So it's supposed to be coming out as Dolby Digital signal, but when the receiver gets the data it is being decoded as DTS?


It's DD+ on the disk, but since S/PDIF cannot transmit DD+, the player decodes DD+ into PCM, and then reencodes PCM with DTS to send out the S/PDIF port. An analogy would be like taking an MP3 file, decoding it to PCM, and then reencoding it with AAC.

This is known as tandem coding, and significantly reduces audio quality with each encoding because the encoding is lossy. Researchers in audio coding use tandem coding to exaggerate coding artifacts to train their listeners for double-blind testing of codecs.

--Andre

There is no DD on the disc, just DD+.

Because you (your processor / receiver) can't decode DD+ at this time, they have to do it in the player. They would do it anyway so they can mix the other audio. From this point it would be best to take PCM over HDMI. Since most of us probably can't do that we have to use SPDIF and suffer the re-encode.

BTW, I thought one feature of DD+ is that it can be made backwards compatible with DD. It's ironic (and I'm sure maddening to Dolby) to have DD+ reencoded as DTS. This is a pretty dumb thing to do.

--Andre

There is no DD on the disc, just DD+.

Because you (your processor / receiver) can't decode DD+ at this time, they have to do it in the player. They would do it anyway so they can mix the other audio. From this point it would be best to take PCM over HDMI. Since most of us probably can't do that we have to use SPDIF and suffer the re-encode.
Okay, that confirms what I had suspected, there is no DD on the disc, period.

Don't have HDMI, and won't until 1.3 is available, so my best choice is analog output I presume.

BTW, I thought one feature of DD+ is that it can be made backwards compatible with DD. It's ironic (and I'm sure maddening to Dolby) to have DD+ reencoded as DTS. This is a pretty dumb thing to do.

--Andre
That's what I had originally thought, that a DD stream could be extracted from the DD+ signal, apparently not, or if it can, the Toshiba is not handling it right.

I agree, you'd think Dolby Labs would be flippin' mad about that..

I just upgraded to 6.1. From reading this thread it seems that I am not going to get better sound (6.1 discrete) with this HD-DVD player unless I upgrade to a new HDMI Processor. I hoped that DD+ would be compatible with DD-EX but with this DTS transcoding this is not possible? Will DTS ES-Discrete fit into the equation anywhere? I'm just trying to figure out what to expect. Eric

I just upgraded to 6.1. From reading this thread it seems that I am not going to get better sound (6.1 discrete) with this HD-DVD player unless I upgrade to a new HDMI Processor. I hoped that DD+ would be compatible with DD-EX but with this DTS transcoding this is not possible? Will DTS ES-Discrete fit into the equation anywhere? I'm just trying to figure out what to expect. Eric
You will not get more than 5.1 discrete channels, but you can still get better sound quality using analog inputs if you don't have HDMI. I just posted this info in the new FAQ thread which may help. Or read the first post of this thread, much of which is still valid although I need to make updates and corrections.

You will not get more than 5.1 discrete channels, but you can still get better sound quality using analog inputs if you don't have HDMI. I just posted this info in the new FAQ thread which may help. Or read the first post of this thread, much of which is still valid although I need to make updates and corrections.

Please forgive the stupid questions, but why are the analog inputs better? Is the idea that the HD-A1 would convert the audio to analog and this would be passed on unchanged through the receiver? What format would the audio be in then?

I have Panasonic SA-XR55 which has the inputs but absolutely no mention of them in the manual.

You will not get more than 5.1 discrete channels, but you can still get better sound quality using analog inputs if you don't have HDMI. I just posted this info in the new FAQ thread which may help. Or read the first post of this thread, much of which is still valid although I need to make updates and corrections.

Can I get 5.1 uncompressed audio from the analog outs? I did not think so. Hopefully I am wrong.

Can I get 5.1 uncompressed audio from the analog outs? I did not think so. Hopefully I am wrong.
I believe that it is possible:D..UNCOMPRESSED thru analog outs:D

I just tried using the analog outputs, and frankly, it's not worth the trouble, at least in my case. Using a Denon 3805. First off, the output is too low no matter where you set the test tones. Actually the test tones themselves are too loud, but when actual audio is being played the output is too low. Plus, I get a very noticeable hum when connected through the analog outputs, never had that problem with any other player. Couldn't get an acceptable audio level without having a lot of hum introduced. I spent about a 1 1/2 hrs messing with it and finally just went back to the "DTS" optical connection.

Can I get 5.1 uncompressed audio from the analog outs? I did not think so. Hopefully I am wrong.
Whatever formats the Toshiba can decode, will be output "full strength", so to speak, via analog and PCM/HDMI.

Right now, this is confirmed to mean DD+ (5.1) and DD TruHD (2 channel). We are waiting to hear back from DTS as to what form DTS-HD will be decoded in.

I have a suspicion here, I don't know if we can say that the "re-encoding" to DTS is at fault for the lowered DB levels. It seems that the analog users are reporting the same thing.

Could it be that the DD+ material or decoding is giving a lower signal level itself?

By the way, the HDMI/PCM option is the best, for anyone who can. But you must choose PCM from the menu (or auto). Choosing bitstream, if I read the manual correctly, will give you the DTS bitstream over HDMI - which is less optimal than PCM.

The DTS bitstream is used as the optimal method to get the 5.1 over SPDIF, as there is not enough "space" over SPDIF optical or coax to support 5.1 channels of uncompressed 96/24 audio.

So DTS compression is used as the least of all evils, just for the SPDIF connections.

Shame to hear about that analog hum - is eveyone getting that?

Please forgive the stupid questions, but why are the analog inputs better? Is the idea that the HD-A1 would convert the audio to analog and this would be passed on unchanged through the receiver? What format would the audio be in then?
In theory 5.1 channel analog should be better than SPDIF because you are avoiding having the decoded PCM re-encoded to DTS then decoded again by your receiver. If you use analog the PCM just goes through a D/A conversion. It sounds like in practice this may not be the case if people are getting hum or cannot get high enough volume. It also may not be the case if the re-encoding is done really well. We may have to wait for some experts to test that.

I'm not sure what you mean by "format of the analog". Analog is a continous electrical wave, it doesn't really have formats like digital. It will be the analog representation of whatever digital format was decoded to PCM.

I have a suspicion here, I don't know if we can say that the "re-encoding" to DTS is at fault for the lowered DB levels. It seems that the analog users are reporting the same thing.

Could it be that the DD+ decoding is giving a lower signal level itself?
I think sspears commented that the volume on the Warner titles is lower than Universal. I noticed it using PCM over HDMI as well. I have to turn the volume up higher than I do with my old DVD player. However, it's not a problem to get the volume loud enough and the quality is good. No hum that I can hear.

Can I get 5.1 uncompressed audio from the analog outs? I did not think so. Hopefully I am wrong.
If you mean can you get the full quality of the new sound formats via analog, in theory the answer is yes. The new formats should be decoded directly to uncompressed 5.1 channel digital PCM, then converted to analog by the internal DACs.

I think sspears commented that the volume on the Warner titles is lower than Universal. I noticed it using PCM over HDMI as well. I have to turn the volume up higher than I do with my old DVD player. However, it's not a problem to get the volume loud enough and the quality is good. No hum that I can hear.
Starting to sound like the encoding of the audio on the Warner material was done at a lower level. If the Universal is fine, and Warner is too low on both analog and digital output - then I'd blame the encoded audio stream on the Warner titles.

keenan wrote:
>>Okay, that confirms what I had suspected, there is no DD on the disc, period.<<

>>That's what I had originally thought, that a DD stream could be extracted from the DD+ signal, apparently not, or if it can, the Toshiba is not handling it right.<<

While discs with Dolby Digital Plus can offer a converted DD output, and discs with DD could output a DD stream directly, that is not possible when the discs are authored in Advanced mode. In that case, all audio goes into the player's mixer as decoded PCM, so the only outputs are PCM, analog, and possibly an encoded version for S/PDIF if the player has an encoder. The Toshiba has a DTS encoder, so it will output DTS regardless of the source format, PCM, DTS/HD, DD, DD+. Other players may choose to include a Dolby Digital encoder.

Rdjam wrote:
>>I have a suspicion here, I don't know if we can say that the "re-encoding" to DTS is at fault for the lowered DB levels. It seems that the analog users are reporting the same thing. Could it be that the DD+ material or decoding is giving a lower signal level itself?<<

I suspect that the lowered levels are not happening in the decoder, but in the mixer, in order to avoid clipping when combining several signals. These lowered levels thus will appear at all outputs. This will not necessarily be the way audio is presented from all future players, as it is a "player implementation matter."

Roger,

What is the solution for us folks that will not tolerate this 'DTS' phenomena?

Can this be fixed via firmware or are there going to be an onslaught of returns?

Or is this also a software issue?

Hi thebland,

>>What is the solution for us folks that will not tolerate this 'DTS' phenomena?<<
I'm not sure which you object to--the S/PDIF being DTS encoded, or the output levels being low?

Did you check the disc menu for the "button sound" option someone else raised? Does it exist--and if so, does it do anything to loudness if you switch it off?

I object to the low levels (at least 10 db) as well as the DTS encoding. I don't want to see DTS when I have DD selected.

I have not tried the button sound thing..... But I will.

So, you are saying that my player is NOT defective?

Thanks for helping out. This has been frustrating...

Were these players not Beta tested prior to release?

keenan wrote:
>>Okay, that confirms what I had suspected, there is no DD on the disc, period.<<

>>That's what I had originally thought, that a DD stream could be extracted from the DD+ signal, apparently not, or if it can, the Toshiba is not handling it right.<<

While discs with Dolby Digital Plus can offer a converted DD output, and discs with DD could output a DD stream directly, that is not possible when the discs are authored in Advanced mode. In that case, all audio goes into the player's mixer as decoded PCM, so the only outputs are PCM, analog, and possibly an encoded version for S/PDIF if the player has an encoder. The Toshiba has a DTS encoder, so it will output DTS regardless of the source format, PCM, DTS/HD, DD, DD+. Other players may choose to include a Dolby Digital encoder.


Thanks, Roger, I was hoping you'd weigh in on this. Curious that Toshiba went with a DTS encoder/decoder instead of Dolby, any reason that you're aware of...?

It's especially curious as there is not even a DTS track on these discs, at least the first three, very odd....

Roger,

What is the solution for us folks that will not tolerate this 'DTS' phenomena?

Can this be fixed via firmware or are there going to be an onslaught of returns?

Or is this also a software issue?
The way I read what Roger has said, is that the HD-A1 has only a DTS decoder, no Dolby decoder on board at all. Given that, I don't think there is any way we'll ever get a standard Dolby Digital stream out of these players.

>>Curious that Toshiba went with a DTS encoder/decoder instead of Dolby, any reason that you aware of...? <<

I cannot say or know why. I can say that it does cost a little more to do DD encoding. For one thing, it needs more DSP resources. We are using the encoder first found in the Sony camcorder (but bitrate increased from 448 to 640 kbps) whereas we used a simpler version for X-box, where lower latency was important for interactive game play.

>>Curious that Toshiba went with a DTS encoder/decoder instead of Dolby, any reason that you aware of...? <<

I cannot say or know why. I can say that it does cost a little more to do DD encoding. For one thing, it needs more DSP resources. We are using the encoder first found in the Sony camcorder (but bitrate increased from 448 to 640 kbps) whereas we used a simpler version for X-box, where lower latency was important for interactive game play.
Then it must be nothing more than a cost thing, which I guess would make sense as $500 for one of these players seems really low, given the technology and the fact that they are first to market.

Quote:Dreamer
SSpears

Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 3,972 And here I thought people loved DTS. This is a magic box, it converts everything into DTS.

Not Funny!
Lets face it this is a major screwup or we would have heard about it long ago,
that because the A-1 uses a DTS decoder it would make your reciever think everything was DTS and the DD would be converted to DTS.
The low volume is another big screwup that I think AVSer's will not tolerate.
There are audio standards for the recorded volume and if I hooked up a denon 3910 and it was 10 db down it would go back because it is defective.
-10 db on my reciever is 10 db down from 0 reference and should not be -20.
If the recorded volume was set at a different reference point we should have been made aware of this or was it covered up because no one would have purchased the players?.

The volume of the analog audio out is not lower than PCM over HDMI. I just got my Yamaha HTR-5990 receiver hooked up by both HDMI and 5.1 channel analog. I can switch back and forth as the audio is playing. It sounds slightly different but the volume is pretty close to the same. It may be a db or two different, but it is not dramatic. So the low volume is not due to the D/A conversion in the player.

I also get no hum that I can hear, even if I put my ear up close to the speaker. So if the hum is coming from the A1 it may be unit dependent. Or it may be receiver dependent. Or it may be interaction between the A1 and receiver. Or it could just be good ole ground loop hum since the A1 has a 3 prong plug.

I'm not an audiophile by any means, but once I increase the volume the audio sounds good to me. As I said, I thought the music in Phantom of the Opera sounded very good. I have a mid-range audio system (Paradigm Reference speakers), so maybe only those with more high end systems will hear the problems some are describing.

Thanks, Roger, I was hoping you'd weigh in on this. Curious that Toshiba went with a DTS encoder/decoder instead of Dolby, any reason that you're aware of...?

It's especially curious as there is not even a DTS track on these discs, at least the first three, very odd....

Yeah, this is just damn bizarre.

keenan wrote:
>>The way I read what Roger has said, is that the HD-A1 has only a DTS decoder, no Dolby decoder on board at all. Given that, I don't think there is any way we'll ever get a standard Dolby Digital stream out of these players. <<

Just to be accurate, it has a DTS ENcoder. The player indeed includes all the various Dolby and DTS DEcoders mentioned elsewhere. And it is indeed possible to get a Dolby Digital bitstream out of this player if the disc is authored as Standard, and if the soundtrack is either Dolby Digital or Dolby Digital Plus. Lot of ifs, I agree.

>>It's especially curious as there is not even a DTS track on these discs, at least the first three, very odd.... <<

I hope the mystery has been somewhat answered. It is not dependent on the disc or the source track format, but on the player itself which supports a particular encoder for S/PDIF compatibility. Which encoder would be the obviously correct one when the source is 5.1 PCM?

I've got the ground hum noise. I think I've verified this by unplugging the unit (hum stops) and then just plugging the ground back in (hum begins).

How would you correct this?

I've got the ground hum noise. I think I've verified this by unplugging the unit (hum stops) and then just plugging the ground back in (hum begins).

How would you correct this?

Found it, it was off my cable line to my DVR. Fixed that, and my hum over 5.1 analog is gone.

I've got the ground hum noise. I think I've verified this by unplugging the unit (hum stops) and then just plugging the ground back in (hum begins).

How would you correct this?
Ground loops are notoriously hard to fix sometimes. There are probably good threads someplace if you search. Ground loop is caused by the ground on the two sets being at different voltage levels.

Here are some quick pointers:

1. Try to move the outlet. Typically having both the source and receiver on the same outlet helps (in the same power strip for example). This is to reduce ground differential (voltage) between the two units. Sometimes the opposite helps. Don't ask me why :).

2. Use an optical feed. Which of course, rules out the analog output you are trying to get working.

3. I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS OPTION as it can be very dangerous should someting short out in your unit. But some people use an adapter the defeats the ground wire on the power cable. Again, you are taking chances here. But it may be worth to try just to see if it helps as a temporary test.

4. The problem may be other units that are also connected to the receiver. Unplug them and see if the problem goes away. If it does, try the above options with them.

5. Get a difference receiver! I am not kidding. Some ground loops occur with certain combination of equipment and not others.

Hope this helps.

Amir

Thanks for the tip Amir, I googled and started unplugging things to figure it out. I'm sort of pissed my Belkin PF60 didn't handle this, but what can you do?

Anyways, the cable line into the DVR->Component to Component Switcher->Component back to Rec->Analog to HD-DVD->Power line.

For now I've disconnected the Component from Receiver (only used with retro game systems for up-conversion, and even then it's not a big deal just had an extra set of cables).

Glad I found it, I was going to be upset if I couldn't use Analog to get the HD tracks when the movies hit on Tuesday.

Glad it worked out!

Amir

Roger, thank you for clearing this up.

When I looked at the audio conversion tables in the A1 manual everything implied that DD should come out over s/pdif, EXCEPT for the tiny row with the dotted line that was labelled, confusingly to me, "Advanced con."

Now, I admit I didn't read the manual, just zipped to sections that I though might be relevant, so maybe it explains what that is, but in the future, is there a way of knowing, from the packaging whether a title is authored in this Advanced content mode?

Can someone explain or provide a link to Advanced Content authoring?

Curious if the XA1 uses the DTS encoder exclusively as well?

The HD-XA1 supposedly feature the SHARC ADSP-21266, so can I presume the audio capabilities of it will be better than the HD-A1 (since SHARC ADSP is explicitly featured as a logo on the door of the player)?

So I can assume that the DTS-only bitstream over HDMI/SPDIF should not be a problem for the HD-XA1 (since it is possible to choose the output bitstream as DTS / DD)?

Just to be accurate, it has a DTS ENcoder. The player indeed includes all the various Dolby and DTS DEcoders mentioned elsewhere. And it is indeed possible to get a Dolby Digital bitstream out of this player if the disc is authored as Standard, and if the soundtrack is either Dolby Digital or Dolby Digital Plus. Lot of ifs, I agree.


So can you explain what the difference between Standard and Advanced authoring is? Are the specs published somewhere? I tried searching for it briefly but was unable to find anything.

I hope this helps, this is taken from the Toshiba press release back in Jan/Feb:

The new HD DVD players can pass digital information to a Surround Sound Processor/Receiver via S/PDIF or HDMI.

For Dolby Digital and DTS, the bitstream will be passed through both connections just as in a standard DVD player with the same interfaces.

Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD content will be converted to a standard bitstream format that is compatible with any processor equipped with decoders of the respective formats and output through S/PDIF and HDMI.

Additionally, all the audio formats for either DVD or HD DVD will be decoded to PCM and output via HDMI in either stereo or multi-channel.

So I presume that if one's Surround Sound processor/receiver supports DTS, the player will automatically choose the DTS bitstream. Does anyone who have DD only sound processor/receiver but still face the DTS bitstream problem?

Or the AVR can be set to receive/decode DD signals only (instead of automatically detecting the stream from the player) so that the player will have to output DD only signals? (I do not know very much about the AVR as I use the HTPC w/DVI for my DVD viewing).

Has anyone considered that the reason the audio is quirky with DD+ is probably because most receivers simply aren't yet equipped to properly decode it, and it's getting distorted/degraded by the decoding processors? The way I see it, the player's job is to output the DD+ audio, and if it is doing that, I don't see how this can be considered a fault or bug of the player.

I suppose it could also be a software issue with these first titles. I don't know, but hopefully we'll know for sure soon.

So can you explain what the difference between Standard and Advanced authoring is? Are the specs published somewhere? I tried searching for it briefly but was unable to find anything.

This reminds me of the issue with Windows where everyone got very upset when they found out that kMixer was resampling all their audio.

It seems to me that encoding the audio as DTS using the absolute maximum bandwidth that you can pass over S/PDIF is a pretty good way to do it. If you want more than that you can simply use the HDMI connection which has enough bandwidth to pass the uncompressed PCM audio without re-encoding.

--
Steve

Has anyone considered that the reason the audio is quirky with DD+ is probably because most receivers simply aren't yet equipped to properly decode it, and it's getting distorted/degraded by the decoding processors? The way I see it, the player's job is to output the DD+ audio, and if it is doing that, I don't see how this can be considered a fault or bug of the player.

I suppose it could also be a software issue with these first titles. I don't know, but hopefully we'll know for sure soon.

The player will never be able to output DD+ over S/PDIF (optical or coax) because those connections don't have enough bandwidth. It can pass uncompressed PCM audio over HDMI and future players with HDMI 1.3/2.0 will be able to pass the raw bitstream.

If the disc isn't authored in advanced mode, then a regular DD stream can be pulled from the DD+ track and be output without re-encoding. But the advanced mode requires mixing together the film soundtrack with other audio so the audio must be decoded, mixed, and re-encoded. DTS at max bitrate is the best encoding you can use over optical and coaxial S/PDIF outputs (unless you just want 2-channel PCM).

--
Steve

The player will never be able to output DD+ over S/PDIF (optical or coax) because those connections don't have enough bandwidth. It can pass uncompressed PCM audio over HDMI and future players with HDMI 1.3/2.0 will be able to pass the raw bitstream.

If the disc isn't authored in advanced mode, then a regular DD stream can be pulled from the DD+ track and be output without re-encoding. But the advanced mode requires mixing together the film soundtrack with other audio so the audio must be decoded, mixed, and re-encoded. DTS at max bitrate is the best encoding you can use over optical and coaxial S/PDIF outputs (unless you just want 2-channel PCM).

--
Steve

Just to reaffirm: DD+ and other new HD formats for audio can only be passed raw over HDMI. But they can also be decoded in player and passed over analog to the receiver, correct?

Hi All,

I am having the same issues as everyone else. I have a Denon 3803.

On the dolby website, there is a bunch of information about DD Plus, and here is a link to the FAQ PDF.

http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/DDPlus_FAQ.pdf

Pay specific attention to #6 - #10.

It basically states that all devices that license DD Plus must downconvert to standard Dolby Digital and output it over the SPDIF/Optical.

I think that the Toshiba player doesn't adhere to the Dolby specs.

Personally, I think that if this is indeed the case, then Toshiba might have a battle on their hands with Dolby.

It's just hard to believe that this product has made it to market, if indeed it doesn't stand up to Dolby's specs. I sure hope this can be fixed with a firmware upgrade.

Anyway, I'm sure we will be hearing more in the next couple of days.

Hi All,

I am having the same issues as everyone else. I have a Denon 3803.

On the dolby website, there is a bunch of information about DD Plus, and here is a link to the FAQ PDF.

http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/DDPlus_FAQ.pdf

Pay specific attention to #6 - #10.

It basically states that all devices that license DD Plus must downconvert to standard Dolby Digital and output it over the SPDIF/Optical.

I think that the Toshiba player doesn't adhere to the Dolby specs.

Personally, I think that if this is indeed the case, then Toshiba might have a battle on their hands with Dolby.

It's just hard to believe that this product has made it to market, if indeed it doesn't stand up to Dolby's specs. I sure hope this can be fixed with a firmware upgrade.
Apparently what you are reading only applies to HD-DVDs authored in "standard" mode. In "advanced" mode, everything gets decoded to PCM for internal processing and if there is any output at all on the SPDIF, it is being *re*encoded by the player and since reencoding is implementation dependent, wheter players send out DD or DTS isn't written in stone.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7496986&&#post7496986

I'm having trouble understanding why it is a big deal the player is sending DTS instead of DD, unless your receiver cannot decode DTS, but the people saying DTS is an issue all appear to have receivers which can decode DTS. Is DTS really noticeably inferior to DD? I thought DTS had higher bandwidth than DD and was an improvement?

At this point, I personally don't have a problem with the conversion to DTS instead of standard Dolby Digital. I'm sure Dolby does though, but that is their battle.

I think alot of people are having trouble with the volume of the first Warner titles. They are low in volume when compared to standard DVDs, and to HD broadcasts that have Dolby Digital 5.1 streams. I've definitely found this to be true.

I have The Last Samurai, Phantom of the Opera, and I also have Serenity from Universal.

The Serenity disc's audio levels are much higher than that of the Warner titles. It is very close to the levels of standard DVDs and HD broadcasts over Directv. I did some switching between Constantine which I have recorded on my HDTivo from HBO and the HD DVDs that I have and I didn't have to change the volume level of my Denon 3803 when switching between Serenity and Constantine. I did have to turn up the volume considerably when switching between Constantine and The Last Samurai HD DVD.

As for the bitrates, DTS can have a higher bitrate. DTS goes up to 1536 kbps, where standard Dolby Digital goes up to 640 kbps.

Another thing people have mentioned is that there is a difference in the Subwoofer level when comparing the DTS converted output to the 5.1 analog output. I think this has a lot to do with the way the receiver is set up. My Denon has an LFE mode and crossover, which is active when using the DD and DTS decoders. If if set the mode to LFE only, then the Sub levels are similar to the Sub levels when using the 5.1 analog inputs. If I use the LFE+Main mode, then the Sub is much louder when using the DD and DTS encoders.

I think it comes down to setup and Bass Management. At this point, I'm no expert on Bass Management, but I am learning.

Anyway, hope this makes sense and doesn't sound like I'm rambling.

My receiver can't decode DTS, nor does it have analog inputs for surround. I'm really struggling now with whether to pick up the player I ordered for in-store pickup tomorrow morning. Doesn't feel right to spend $500 to upgrade the picture while throttling back the sound to Dolby ProLogic :(

Then again, I bought my current receiver almost ten years ago to get Dolby Digital out of my brand new $500 DVD player, so I guess this is as good an excuse as any to upgrade to a DTS-capable receiver, right? :D

My receiver can't decode DTS, nor does it have analog inputs for surround. I'm really struggling now with whether to pick up the player I ordered for in-store pickup tomorrow morning. Doesn't feel right to spend $500 to upgrade the picture while throttling back the sound to Dolby ProLogic :(

Then again, I bought my current receiver almost ten years ago to get Dolby Digital out of my brand new $500 DVD player, so I guess this is as good an excuse as any to upgrade to a DTS-capable receiver, right? :D


Either that or wait some more for the HDMI 1.3 input/output model with DD+/DTS-HD...kind of like trying to hit a moving target

Here is the one minute tutorial on HD DVD menu system/interactivity. There are two modes:

1. Standard. This your current DVD menu. If authored this way, the player should just send out the bitstreams as defined on disc.

2. Advanced. This is "iHD" subystem which all the US titles use (Japanese titles use #1). iHD allows for multiple audio streams/Picture-in-Picture. Each track can have its own encoding, sampling rate, etc. The player then is responsible to decode all and mix them. Now, if it does not compress them back, you have no way of sending multi-channel audio out of the S/PDIF connection as it is not fast enough for uncompressed (multi-channel). So Toshiba has chosen to use a DTS Encoder at maximum rate to preserve all the fidelity they can.

Hope this makes more sense now.

Amir

I apologize if this has been asked before, ( been reading these HD-A1 threads for days; great information) but can the player output 5.1 analog and optical out simultaniously, or do you have to toggle between them?

I have 2 displays and 2 audio systems sometimes running simultainiously, and i'm wondering if I can send analog to my 5.1 receiver and optical out to my 7.1 receiver at the same time. I'll be picking up my unit tomorrow (despite some of the confirmed issues with it). Thanks.

Of course it does... And what I hate is people speculating horrible things about the player because they just sit down in front of the player, do not even read and they do think they are experts.
I knew all this time that there is no bugs regarding this audio pseudo problems.
And I hope that from now on people are going to be more careful whenever they are going to post things...If you do not know please make questions but do not write things as if they are facts...
Thanks Amir

Not Funny!

Its a little funny. :)

I suspect that the lowered levels are not happening in the decoder, but in the mixer, in order to avoid clipping when combining several signals. These lowered levels thus will appear at all outputs. This will not necessarily be the way audio is presented from all future players, as it is a "player implementation matter."
Hi Roger - I can't think of why the mixer would just get it wrong for the Warner titles, but yet suddenly behave right for the Universal titles.

At this point (not having any of the titles myself, yet) it just looks more likely to me that whoever did the encoding for the Warner titles has "goofed". The levels that the mixer is getting is too low, but the mixer just does it's thing and sends it back out.

A digital mixer has no need to drop the volume on a channel to mix it with another, like you would with analog. The process is different, no?

That the Universal titles are behaving properly would seem to make a strong case that it is not the mixer.

Of course it does... And what I hate is people speculating horrible things about the player because they just sit down in front of the player, do not even read and they do think they are experts.
I knew all this time that there is no bugs regarding this audio pseudo problems.
And I hope that from now on people are going to be more careful whenever they are going to post things...If you do not know please make questions but do not write things as if they are facts...
Thanks Amir

Thanks for the answer. I'm really looking forward to getting the HD-A1.

Then again, I bought my current receiver almost ten years ago to get Dolby Digital out of my brand new $500 DVD player, so I guess this is as good an excuse as any to upgrade to a DTS-capable receiver, right? :D

I'd seriously wait until the new receivers come out that can decode the DD+ etc streams. ;) There will be alot of new audio equipment coming out as both players use the same audio formats at least.

Its a little funny. :)
Yes, it is.. :)

I'd seriously wait until the new receivers come out that can decode the DD+ etc streams. ;) There will be alot of new audio equipment coming out as both players use the same audio formats at least.
Hi Neverman - You'll pretty much never get the DD+, DTruHD or DTS-HD streams directly out of these machines. All US content it seems, will be authored in "advanced" mode, which means no DD+ etc bitstream.

However, you may have meant to advise Dr Mal to wait for an AVR with HDMI 1.3. This would potentially give access to the streams, but Dolby still says this would not be possible if the discs are authored in "advanced" mode - which they pretty much all will be.

Besides an AVR with 1.3 HDMI will be much more than the $500 you spent before.

My recommendation is to go with an inexpensive AVR now, that gives you analog inputs, SPDIF inputs, and DTS decoding (if possible DTS ES).

IF 2nd and 3rd gen machines let you do something really different with the audio over 1.3 HDMI then you can consider another move later. Right now, given the "advanced" authoring rules, it looks unlikely that 1.3 HDMI will add any real audio features for "advanced" mode discs.

Hi All,

I think it might be a good idea to summarize everything that we now seem to know about this situation.

The DTS identification on your AVR does not appear to be a bug. Also, this "issue" seems to be unrelated to the "low volume" issue that is reported by some users.

Regarding the "DTS" issue:

For the sake of simplicity, I will only address "advanced" mode authoring, as this is what the US discs apparently will almost exclusively be released in - so forget about "standard" mode for this discussion.

The A1/XA1 units will decode DD+ on the HD DVD discs to PCM internally, where the audio is mixed with special features (such as button presses, messages, audio-visual commentary, etc).

This PCM (typically 96/24 5.1 audio) is then output to the DACS (digital to analog converters) in the player and output to the analog plugs (using this 96/24 5.1 PCM stream).

This PCM 96/24 5.1 stream can also be sent directly into an AVR via HDMI so that your AVR can use it's own DACS instead.

The analog plugs on the A1/XA1, and the HDMI/PCM transfer are the two best (i.e. highest quality) audio outputs you will get from these players. No reconversion of any sort will happen when running in these modes.

HOWEVER - for many users who use SPDIF (ie TOSlink optical, or coax) there needs to be this option also for getting the audio into their AVRs.

Because SPDIF cannot get anywhere near the bandwidth required for 5.1 96/24 full-stream audio, Toshiba has implemented a clever, and very elegant solution. It takes this 5.1 96/24 PCM stream and converts it in real-time to DTS audio and sends it over SPDIF to your AVR, for decoding.

We are assuming that they chose DTS over DD because DTS allows up to 1.5 megabits per second and would be considered the best option over SPDIF bandwidth. There are likely a few people who would disagree and state that DD (Dolby Digital) at 640 kilobits would be better. But I personally think Toshiba made the right choice here. If you choose to do PCM over SPDIF, you will get a two-channel (2.0) 96/24 stream instead.

So you have three choices for how to get the audio out of the A1/XA1. The way I view it is:

1) PCM over HDMI - Best (5.1 96/24)
2) Analog - Next Best (5.1 96/24 converted to analog)
3) SPDIF - Third Best (5.1 DTS)

I do not believe at this point that this system has caused any of the problems being reported with audio quality.

Also, while a couple of users reported hum from the analog ports, this turned out to be "ground feedback" caused other equipment that was connected in their setup, which they were able to isolate and correct.

Intriguingly, some users have reported observing 6.1 audio being sent to their AVR over this DTS link (I think from the Universal disc). I've seen a note somewhere that seems to confirm that this DTS real-time encoding *does* preserve the matrix information required for this, but I'll leave that one for Toshiba or DTS to confirm here.

EDIT: If so, you will also get this 6.1 matrix data over PCM also.
EDIT: I believe I recall that one analog user reported seeing a message indicating this in the thread, but I'm not certain how this would work with analog.

NOW - THE VOLUME ISSUE:

Users have reported that on Warner titles, the audio level is much lower than the audio from their other devices, or from regular DVDs in the same Toshiba players.

Interestingly, they have reported the audio to be at the same weak level (8 to 10 db below normal) whether they choose to use Analog, HDMI or SPDIF connections. This immediately rules out the DTS re-encoder as the cause - IMO.

Also, they report that the audio level is perfectly normal with releases from Universal - again, on all output ports. To me, this rules out the internal mixers in the Toshibas, and points the finger at the audio encoding on the Warner discs.

I believe that someone goofed when encoding the audio for the Warner titles that have exhibited the problem. We will have to wait for some industrious soul to confirm this with measurements, but I'm pretty sure that this is the case.

It is easy to see how someone may have seen all these new learning experiences all run together as a blur and link one to another as a bug, but it appears to be all OK - except for the Warner discs, of course.

Yes, it would have been useful to know before-hand what to expect when connecting the A1 to an AVR via SPDIF, to avoid all the confusion - but at least we understand now.

Yes - the A1 player will be decoding the full 5.1 DD+ and doing it's mixing, etc, then outputting DTS to your AVR over SPDIF. So you might think your AVR is decoding 5.1 DTS (and it is) but your player is still decoding the full 5.1 DD+ from the disc.

And you'll still get the full 96/24 5.1 PCM audio decoded from the DD+ stream, over analog and via PCM/HDMI.

This DTS issue is not a bug, and the audio does not seem to be adversely affected by the re-encoding at all.

Hope this has helped!

If the audio is low can't you turn the volume up to compensate? Isn't that what the volume control is for?

I smell a colaboration/consipracy with this DTS anomally. DD does the work and the tosihiba does its thing with the audio and we then read on our ssp/reciever DTS. They then take the credit.

Sort of like: I made the cake, you served it to the customer and took the credit for it being your creation :eek:

Ben

If the audio is low can't you turn the volume up to compensate? Isn't that what the volume control is for?

Yes....but it sound undynamic with weak bass...so no...this is not an option.
sd dvd sounds far better than that option.

With the Warner titles....I believe you need hdmi audio at this point...if you want anything resembling normal audio unfortunately.

Ditto,

I tried turning the audio up but all it did was add some his and the bass seamed left behind. MY processor is balanced to play at -0 (reference level), going to +10 is a problem for me but may not be as bad for someone who only turns his system up to -15 normally..

I am glad to see that the 'bug' at least has been explained. I'm not happy with it and wonder if the HD-AX1 will behave similarly?

If it's movies then getting a new dvd model won't change the volume. Return the movies and let Warner know the problem. The sooner they stop pressing more flawed dvds and reauthor all their movies the better.

It is an issue for those of us who don't have a DTS capable unit. I've got 3 HD zones in my house, the main theater and 2 other smaller rooms. I distribute digital audio and component video to them and use a MainstageHD device in the other 2 rooms for the audio. It doesn't do DTS, so it won't produce any sound. Not good :(.

Interesting thread. Does changing to the True-HD track on POO fix the low volume issue?

If it is Warner that made a mistake, will they recall the discs or silently release a revision 2 in a months time. If it is the discs I may take Universal titles only until its sorted out.

I tried the Tue-HD option on the disc and it told me the player didn't have a True-HD decoder in the player and no sound came out.

Dave

Intriguingly, some users have reported observing 6.1 audio being sent to their AVR over this DTS link (I think from the Universal disc). I've seen a note somewhere that seems to confirm that this DTS real-time encoding *does* preserve the matrix information required for this, but I'll leave that one for Toshiba or DTS to confirm here.

If so, you will also get this 6.1 matrix data over analog and PCM also. I believe I recall that one analog user reported seeing a message indicating this in the thread.

Given that the player only has 5.1 analog outputs, which would be connected to 5.1 inputs on a receiver, I don't see how the matrixing information could be carried over using the analog connections.

If I send audio over the digital coax, it will play matrixed DTS-ES. If it goes over analog, then it is strait PCM that is played over the Multichannel input with no processing done by my Onkyo 989.

It doesn't do DTS, so it won't produce any sound.

Is this a deduction or does that actually happen ?

Is this a deduction or does that actually happen ?
It's been pretty much confirmed that if the receiver/pre-pro does not decode DTS, then you won't get any sound as the re-encoded output for SPDIF and optical is in DTS.

Given that the player only has 5.1 analog outputs, which would be connected to 5.1 inputs on a receiver, I don't see how the matrixing information could be carried over using the analog connections.
I don't see how it could either, he might be thinking of the Anthem D2 which resamples the analog input and I think can add PLIIx style surround info to the signal.

I tried the Tue-HD option on the disc and it told me the player didn't have a True-HD decoder in the player and no sound came out.

Dave

The message states that the player doesn't have a multi-channel decoder but then continues on letting you set the selection...AND, you should have received two channel (i.e., stereo) output...I did on my setup.

Ben,
Thanks for that info. When I was told that, I just switched it back to the other option. I will give it another go tonight.

Just so im sure, regular DD 5.1 works fine with these players via Optical Audio correct? Thanks

Just so im sure, regular DD 5.1 works fine with these players via Optical Audio correct? Thanks
No, at least not with the Samurai and Phantom titles, the HD-A1 re-encodes the audio for SPDIF and optical using a DTS encoder, so the output is a DTS signal. I haven't seen a post by anyone who is getting a standard DD 5.1 signal from those outputs. Roger said there is no Dolby SPDIF/Toslink re-encoder in the player, so it stands to reason you won't get DD on those outputs.

Then again, I bought my current receiver almost ten years ago to get Dolby Digital out of my brand new $500 DVD player, so I guess this is as good an excuse as any to upgrade to a DTS-capable receiver, right? :D
If you can afford it, I would recommend at least getting a receiver with 5.1 analog audio inputs. I think these are fairly inexpensive now. If you can spend more, get one with HDMI 1.1 inputs that can handle 5.1 channels of PCM. As to waiting for HDMI 1.3, you might want to read the "Should I Wait for Next Generation Players?" section in the first post of this thread. There may not be much advantage in HDMI 1.3 if the players are going to be decoding, mixing and re-encoding for bitstream output anyway. You might as well just pass the PCM to the receiver and avoid another encode/decode step.

Interesting thread. Does changing to the True-HD track on POO fix the low volume issue?
It's a little hard to judge since changing to True-HD also changes to two channels and with the menu system you can't switch back and forth quickly, but I tried it and did not notice a dramatic difference in the volume.

Just to reaffirm: DD+ and other new HD formats for audio can only be passed raw over HDMI. But they can also be decoded in player and passed over analog to the receiver, correct?
The new audio formats are not passed raw over HDMI. They are decoded and passed as 5.1 channel digital PCM over HDMI. The PCM is then converted to analog in the player and passed over the 5.1 analog outs as well.

I think it might be a good idea to summarize everything that we now seem to know about this situation...
Great summary, thanks for taking the time to post it. I linked it to my post in the FAQ thread which attempts to provide some quick guidance on audio connection.

I apologize if this has been asked before, ( been reading these HD-A1 threads for days; great information) but can the player output 5.1 analog and optical out simultaniously, or do you have to toggle between them?.
I haven't tested it, but I'm pretty sure it will output 5.1 channel analog no matter what digital connection you are using. There are no options in the menu to choose between analog or digital, I think the analog is just always on whether you are using it or not. I did hook up both HDMI and analog at the same time and could switch back and forth without changing the A1 setup.

Just so im sure, regular DD 5.1 works fine with these players via Optical Audio correct? Thanks
An "advanced" mode discs (which is pretty much all US releases) everything is running as PCM inside the player, even if you could choose DD.

I'm willing to wager that DD+ 96/24 5.1 converted to DTS over SPDIF will be better than DD stream anyway.

But ultimately, HDMI and Analog will give you the full benefit of DD+ and the best audio.

If there are any "standard" mode discs, then Yes, you will be able to choose "bitstream" mode and it will pass the DD core over SPDIF.

Hope that helps :)