I'm posting this info in this forum because there appears to be more posts here on the BFD than any other forum.

I have spoken with Behringer and they have shown serious interest in designing a replacement for the BFD that is more suited to the consumer market. As many of you may already know... the DSP1124 has been discontinued. The replacement FBQ2496 only offers 1 preset and still doesn't get us many of the needed features for a total sub eq package.

This is not something to necessarily compete with the Velo SMS-1. We are trying to keep the street price around $150-200, which includes a built-in mic amp with phantom power and a built-in SPL meter... the recommended Behringer ECM8000 mic would be extra if you need one (~$50 at Parts Express). We would continue to recommend using RoomEQ Wizard as the software program of choice due to its increasing and overwhelming popularity.

This is something we are pretty optimistic about. Keep in mind that the consumer HT world is what put the BFD on the map. Therefore Behringer has interest.

At this point in time we have no set time frame as to when we could expect this unit to hit the shelves. After the suggested features are submitted we hope to get a general idea of a time frame. Behringer has many of these features already incorporated in their various products, so we are hoping it would not be a long drawn out process.

Here are the features we are considering at present. We are looking for suggestions, comments, recommendations, etc. Remember to keep in mind the target street price. KISS!

Proposal for the BSE2496C (Behringer Sub Equalizer 24/96 Consumer)

The consumer home theater world has for several years used the BFD DSP1124P as a parametric sub eq to level out the response of their sub(s). The unit has been extremely popular and continues to be the popular choice for sub equalization, where it can be found, being that it has been recently discontinued.

We are basing the BSE2496C (Behringer Sub EQ 24/96 Consumer) on similarities to several of your products such as the former DSP1124, the current FBQ2496, DEQ2496 and DCX2496, none of which fit our needs precisely. Following is a list of features in four categories, the first being features in the DSP1124 and/or the FBQ2496 that we would like to keep as they are. Second are the essential features we would like, as well as several requested changes from the current BFD units. These are what we consider the must haves, if at all possible. Third are features/changes that we would like, but could live without if we just had too, although we believe they should have a minimal cost factor and might be easier included than we think. Fourth are features available in other Behringer models or new features that we would like to be considered, but could be reserved for a second higher-end model if they will cause the target unit to exceed our target price.

We are not requesting a software program due to the free availability of the RoomEQ Wizard program. The target price we would like to see is $200-250 retail which will allow for a street price of approximately $150-200. It is imperative that we keep the cost to a minimum, as this is and always has been the driving force behind BFD sales in the home theater world. The majority of BFD 1124 owners were able to acquire their unit for $100-125.

Features on the DSP1124 and/or FBQ2496 we would like to keep:
~ Two independent channels.
~ A minimum of twelve parametric filters per channel (20 per channel is good too).
~ Channel coupling and series looping.
~ Three-way IN/OUT bypass.
~ Input/output LED level indicators.
~ LED filter indicators for both channels.
~ Front panel display.
~ Retain normal required buttons and jog dial.
~ 24-bit/96 kHz A/D and D/A converter powered by a 32-bit DSP.
~ Internal switch-mode power supply (100 - 240 V~ / 50-60hz).
~ Low power consumption.
~ Adjustable input level (-10dBV / +4dBu) on rear.
~ Hard bypass relay.
~ Noise-free.
~ 107db dynamic range.
~ 0.007% THD.
~ High-quality components.
~ High-quality construction.
~ Balanced XLR inputs/outputs.
~ One year warranty.


Essential features and changes that we would like and should have a very minimal cost factor:
~ Soft power ON/OFF with selectable Auto-On detect via sub signal.
~ Eliminate turn-on thump and ground hum.
~ Double insulated chassis with a two prong plug or a ground lift switch if needed to eliminate hum.
~ Pure flat frequency response from 10hz to 20khz* (FBQ2496 is -3db @ 20hz).
~ Filter adjustment capabilities from 10hz to 20khz*.
~ Adjustable gain range from -24db to +16db for each filter.
~ Minimum of 4 to 6 memory presets.
~ Replace ¼ inch inputs/outputs with RCA inputs/outputs.
~ Simple shelf filter… (i.e. selectable linear boost between two selectable frequencies).
~ Selectable and/or variable 6db-48db/octave subsonic roll-off filter from 35hz to 10hz (minimum 5hz increments).
~ Time delay from 0 to 30msec or 1 foot increments w/ 0.1 foot fine up to 30 feet.
~ Variable phase correction/adjustment from 0-180.
~ Front panel USB and/or RS-232 interface for MIDI port (place under small flip cover like on computers).
~ Dimmable front panel LED’s / lights with OFF option.
~ Soft blue and/or green LED’s on front panel vs. red.
~ Offer unit in black or silver… if not optional, offer only in black.
~ Revamp chassis for home theater consumer appearance vs. pro-audio style.
~ Allow mounting brackets to be optional (include unattached).
~ Enclose/fill gaps on sides if mounting brackets are removed.
~ Add rubber feet to allow placement on top of other equipment.
~ Remove graphic design from top of unit.

* If it will save cost, limiting the upper frequency response and filter capabilities to 400hz is acceptable.

With the above features and changes this unit should sell like a hot potato at a steak house. We believe these are reasonable features for a street priced unit at $150-200.


Requested features/changes that won’t make or break the unit, but would be nice to have if minimal cost factor:
~ Anti-clipping mechanism with higher dynamic peak input before clipping.
~ Frequency readout in hertz instead of base + fine… (1hz increments w/ 0.1hz fine increments).
~ Bandwidth readout in octaves (1/3,1/6,1/24,1/1, etc.) or hertz (2hz,5hz,12hz,etc.) instead of 1/60, 10/60, 60/60, etc.
~ Front panel volume/gain to control output level to sub.
~ Ability to slave multiple units together.
~ Linkwitz transform circuit.
~ Detachable power cord.


Next are the more elaborate features that you already have in some of your units, plus a few other added requested features, but we are uncertain as to the cost of these features and whether it would cause the new unit to exceed our target street price of $150-200. It may be that we could stand a street price of $250 (retail $299) with these extra features. We assume it would depend on your cost to integrate them into the new unit. Or if feasible, offer the above in one unit and add these features to another unit at a higher cost.

Elaborate requested features with unknown cost factor for implementation (in order of relevance):
~ Individual crossover filters (Butterworth, Bessel, Linkwitz-Riley) per channel w/ selectable roll-off 6db-48db/octave.
~ Adjustable/variable crossover range (low pass and high pass from 20hz to 200hz and w/ bypass).
~ Built-in RTA mic/line input w/ phantom power and w/ GAIN control.
~ Built-in SPL meter with selectable dBA/dBC/OFF weighting.
~ Built-in test tones (sinewaves – individual 1hz increments and sweep from 5hz to 400hz or 5hz to 20khz).
~ Separate RCA mic monitoring and test tone output to allow for computer program monitoring.
~ Locate RTA mic/line inputs and RCA monitoring outputs on the front face plate under a small flip cover.
~ Video output for monitoring the display would be nice, but the cost factor may prohibit this.
~ Video display instead of LED’s… (dimmable and selectable OFF).
~ Small and simple 6 button wireless IR remote with discrete ON/OFF buttons and Preset 1,2,3,4 buttons.
~ Rear IR jack for remote control… to use with repeaters.
~ Add volume/gain control button to remote if feature is made available.
~ Add other control buttons to remote if cost feasible.
~ Fully integrated software program (something similar to RoomEQ Wizard).
~ Auto-EQ (with ability to manually adjust suggested filters).



NOTE: I do not work for Behringer or anyone else. When I say "we" this and "we" that... I am referring to what the majority has voiced thus far. Just like I have never been paid for the BFD GUIDE or the BFD FORUM... I am not getting paid to do this. It is because of the GUIDE and FORUM that I have a strong voice with Behringer, but it is because of YOU and the HT world that we can have the opportunity to have a new product designed. It won't get to market because of me... it will succeed because of you. It will benefit me no more than anyone else that has interest... but it is fun and it will be a huge benefit to all of us looking for such a product.

Thanks!

Sounds like a nice array of planned features. All of the gripes I have with the current BFD seem to have been addressed, especially the ground loop problem. I would include optional rack mount ears (like those offered with power conditioner consoles to convert them into rack-mountable), given the number of people who will end up integrating it into an equipment rack.

I'm not sure a built-in mic and SPL meter would be needed, given how many HT enthusiasts already have access to one, but on the other hand having a mic that is accurate to below 20 Hz would be great since the Radioshack SPL meter needs additional compensation. Other things low on my priority list would be the remote control and DC-on/off (since there will be Auto-on) but I realize some people would probably really want those features. In any event, if Behringer can pull this off for $200 MSRP that would be very impressive.

I would recommend changing #13. Most consumers do not have a midi interface on their computer these days. RS-232 or (preferably, if not cost prohibitive) USB would be a better choice, IMHO.

Thats a great idea!

The only thing I would add would be a USB instead of a MIDI interface. It is very hard, and expensive to get a soundcard with MIDI interface for a laptop, and I guess mots of us uses laptops with RoomEQ Wizard.

If it came down to a choice I would much rather have USB then remote and RTA.

I would recommend changing #13. Most consumers do not have a midi interface on their computer these days. RS-232 or (preferably, if not cost prohibitive) USB would be a better choice, IMHO.

This is a good suggestion a long as it does not add cost. Midi interface is standard in the pro-audio world so there may be additional development costs to produce a unit with a RS-232 interface.

This is a good suggestion a long as it does not add cost. Midi interface is standard in the pro-audio world so there may be additional development costs to produce a unit with a RS-232 interface.

Well that and RS-232 is phased out on most modern laptops and some desktops. USB -> RS232 adapters are available but so are USB -> Midi adapters.

This would be a great product.

I would like to see USB rather than midi. This is a consumer product after all.

Also, if cost starts to go over the $200 mark, I agree with Jeremy that the built-in mic and SPL meter could go.

Sounds great - I would be very interested. I don't have a BFD now because I have had a few reservations with the current designs, but a product like this seems to address all of them. This would legitimately become a true must have subwoofer add on at $150.

For #17, I would hope it wouldn't be limited to something in large increments - 3hz increments would be great. And are we talking brickwall or a gradual reduction?

I also agree on USB as the preferred output.

Looking forward to this product - hope it's not vaporware.

Wow, that list is pretty complete.

I think the phantom power for a measurement microphone is definitely a very good idea. Make sure the gain of the microphone is adjustable because some of us have the Nady CM-100 microphone. ;)

Placement of the connectors should be considered since many of the connectors such as the midi, microphone, and microphone line-out would be used only when doing measurments and thus should be on the front hidden behind a door.

How about 12 volt trigger with delay capability? When combined with the soft-turn on, this would solve even other turn-on pop problems.

For the remote control, it would be valuable not so much for turn-on as I am almost certainly going to want to have this unit come online automatically with my system. Instead, I would love a way to quickly dial the sub output up and down in 1/2 dB steps so that I can quickly tailor the subwoofer "hotness" according to music type. And a quick button to return to default "0" setting. A range of +- 11dB would be good. ;)

Can't wait for this to be released. Would be in line to buy one.

Yup... I think that's what most people are doing... USB to Midi. Although throwing it the option to have USB vs. Midi provided it would not accelerate the cost, might be worthwhile.

Whatever is made it should be easy for non-technical people to use therefore having an inbuilt microphone would be a great idea.

I have USB ports on the computer but no Midi interface.

For #17, I would hope it wouldn't be limited to something in large increments - 3hz increments would be great. And are we talking brickwall or a gradual reduction?
What would be your suggestion? 3hz increments from 25hz down to 15hz?


Make sure the gain of the microphone is adjustable because some of us have the Nady CM-100 microphone.

Placement of the connectors should be considered since many of the connectors such as the midi, microphone, and microphone line-out would be used only when doing measurments and thus should be on the front hidden behind a door.
Great recommendations... definitely need gain control if the mic amp is going to be included.

I think it's pretty safe to assume that the majority of people who are interested in this type of thing already have a radio shack spl meter. No need for added costs.

What would be your suggestion? 3hz increments from 25hz down to 15hz?
Preferably 3hz increments from 10hz - 25hz. More and more material in dvds is getting lower and lower, leading people like me to build crazy subs. A 15hz brickwall is counterproductive for me. A 10hz or 13hz rolloff would be perfect though.

I can tell you I am already getting excited at the prospects :)

Pastel faceplate, and a fuzz box.

As someone who is typing from a powerbook, I agree that a USB connector is preferrable.

I suggested the rs-232 (DB9) port for cost reasons. My understanding is that most manufactures simply embed a USB-serial bridge chip in the device (the same chips typically found in an external usb to serial adapter) so they don't have to develop a custom USB device driver? I imagine the cost difference comes down to pennies these days and I'm standing by for someone with direct experience to correct me. :)

I think it's pretty safe to assume that the majority of people who are interested in this type of thing already have a radio shack spl meter. No need for added costs.

I don't think this has a very expensive cost factor, but it is something that would be discussed with the designer to make sure. For folks that do not own a BFD or SPL meter then it would save them $35-40. Plus we know the RS SPL Meter is not accurate, even with correction values. For level matching it's okay though.

I would prioritize the mic amp over the remote control, but the mic amp would only be usefull if you can connect the BSE2496C to a PC and use the readings from the mic together with RoomEQ Wizard

Keep in mind that while Behringer is very interested in designing this unit, I plan on pointing them to here to see just what kind of response and interest there is. I figure this will be the forum that will have the best response. This should increase their interest even more and possibly expedite the build. So... it would help if we could notify as many folks as possible to post a positive response of interest. Thanks!

Fair enough - my biggest priority would be the low frequency settings for a high pass (rumble) filter.

...the mic amp would only be usefull if you can connect the BSE2496C to a PC and use the readings from the mic together with RoomEQ Wizard
Precisely.... if we can't get the monitoring to the PC then it's not going to do us any good at all and we'd be better off without it. Although I don't see a monitoring output being a problem.

Wow, that is quite a list.

I think if it did all that and sold for $150, I would pre-order one tomorrow to replace my current 1124p BFD.

I haven't really gotten into it to much yet, but the thing that would be top on my list would be going down to 10hz, instead of the current 20hz. Some of the features that would make it emulate a LT circuit would be next on my list.

All the looks features would be nice, but if it would push this over the $200 mark, I may start to look elsewhere.

And the built in SPL and RTA monitoring ability would be nice, but not worth the cost.

Man, slap me if I'm missing something.

I see no use whatsoever for a unit purely to EQ your subwoofer.

Why not a generic signal processor for the full system? Do you not have some other means of control as far as crossover already managing what is passed to your sub?

Their model DEQ2496 should do the trick if they only added unbalanced in/out to make things easier.

I used to run a DSP8024 for a club system, it wasn't bad, but you really don't want to do much other than some polishing up with it. The coarse adjustments really have to be done via the active crossovers first to keep things clean. Then you approach it with the actual signal path.

I couldn't find the FBQ2496 you mentioned on their site.

All the looks features would be nice, but if it would push this over the $200 mark, I may start to look elsewhere.

And the built in SPL and RTA monitoring ability would be nice, but not worth the cost.
Agree.... we will have to rationalize which features are going to be more important if the cost exceeds our target pricing. With so many folks already having the mic, SPL meter, etc. this would probably be the first features to be eliminated.

Why not a generic signal processor for the full system? Do you not have some other means of control as far as crossover already managing what is passed to your sub?

Crossover isn't the issue, parametric equalization to improve in-room response is.

Most people don't have the capability to externally equalize all channels unless they have a pre/pro with separate amps, or one of the rare receivers that has pre-out/amp-in. More receiver models are now including basic equalization for the main speakers but they don't focus on the subwoofer.

Man, slap me if I'm missing something.
Hmmm... as Roy D. Mercer would ask... just how big uh ole boy are ya? I don't know if I'd wanna slap ya but how boutsa buttsmack?

http://www.nextlevelav.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_smackbutt.gif

I couldn't find the FBQ2496 you mentioned on their site.
FBQ2496 (http://www.behringer.com/FBQ2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG)

This would be a huge must have product, as the dinkin around to get the current bfd to work in the Home Theater application is quite lengthy....

I would suggest USB, but then Programming of such a periferral can become alot of work to get standards to be incorporated...(maybe Im wrong - I hope so) It might just be a faster solution and very easy and inexpensive for anyone with a Laptop to get a USB to Midi connector...
That would save alot of time for Behringer to get this out to the public faster...
Remember Midi is a standard for these guys, and Im guessing implementation would be the easiest...

Don't get me wrong I prefer USB, just not sure if it would slow the process down.

Warp

Must keep the ability to rack mount. The ears could be offered aftermarket for additional cost so that they would not impede list price of ~$200.00.

The reason MIDI is in the BFD is because it was aimed at musicians who program a lot of electronics using Midi controls and the presets in the BFD could be changed as other setups were changing. Personally, I have soundcard to midi cables (from my wayback days) but I can see where USB would be consumer friendly.

The ability to dim the display or blank it. YES!

I agree with Steve Callas. A filter that is very useful for the extreme lower frequencies <10 Hz is very desirable.

You have to remember that Behringer already makes a semi calibrated mic, real time digital analyzers and a lot of the other features that we are looking for all in one. It might cut into their profits. Buy a New BFD and buy a mic = 2 sales!

I am surprised that no one has asked for on screen video display! If we are dreaming then dream big! Imagine watching your FR appear on your screen after shooting the room. And if we are asking for a mic input, why not ask them to dream up a way to store measurement from say 6 locations and then merge them all into one comprehensive chart!

I think everything I want included has been mentioned already, but every voice helps, especially if they are listening.

Chuck

Dear Behringer,

If you build it, we will come.

Seriously.


Tim

Agree.... we will have to rationalize which features are going to be more important if the cost exceeds our target pricing. With so many folks already having the mic, SPL meter, etc. this would probably be the first features to be eliminated.

Yeah. It's nice to have a pie in the sky list of nice features to have. But, looking at the Velodyne SMS-1 price should give everyone an idea of how much all those features will cost.

I'm thinking in terms of taking their existing product and with a few minor mods, to make it more appealing, but not add a lot of cost. To me, that would be start with the 1124P features, upgrade it to the 2496 hardware, extend the usuable range down to 10hz, add shelving filters, add switch to turn off the front panel display, add a USB port, include a copy of REQW in the box (give a big kickback to John), and your done.

Do those things for $150, and again I'll pre-order one right now.

I am surprised that no one has asked for on screen video display! If we are dreaming then dream big!

We're dreaming on a $200 budget. Besides we have to leave some customers for Velodyne right? :cool:

Precisely.... if we can't get the monitoring to the PC then it's not going to do us any good at all and we'd be better off without it. Although I don't see a monitoring output being a problem.

I wouldn't mind tossing the RS out the window. Having accurate measurements would be the icing in the cake for me. I guess Behringer also would be interested in this feature since they would get to sell an EMC8000 with every unit sold :)

A big piece of what is going to sell this is the user interface. It has got to be very straightforward and simple as possible. When they read about it, people have to realize that "hey, I can do this, and it I can see how it will really have a positve effect on my subwoofer frequency response" before they get concerned about the specific slope of a crossover.

Maybe some sort of Simple vs. Advanced mode setup where Simple would just take it down to the level of:
Filter1
Q = ?
Level = ?
Freq = ?

Filter2
Q = ?
Level = ?
Freq = ?

etc...x12

Tim

Dear Behringer,

If you build it, we will come.

Seriously.


Tim
I like this one!

Hmmm... as Roy D. Mercer would ask... just how big uh ole boy are ya? I don't know if I'd wanna slap ya but how boutsa buttsmack?

http://www.nextlevelav.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_smackbutt.gif


FBQ2496 (http://www.behringer.com/FBQ2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG)


Doh!, there it was, all the way down there.

@Jeremy, O.k. I see your point and I also keep thinking in two dimensions (channels) as my brain isn't wrapped around 7 yet ;-). Too many years in FOH sound.

What I'd reeaaaallly like is a true 'insert' point for an EQ on the receivers (just like mixing consoles), or should I say multiples as it isn't just 2 channels anymore.

Anyway, the new SVS 25-31 PCi is sitting in my foyer waiting for me to get home from work.....away I go.

With a built in SPL meter and mic, why not go for an auto setup like an Audyssey MultEQ just for the sub. The unit could output test tones to the receiver digitally and then measure the test tones with a mic at the desired listening position and adjust for a flat response.

MultiEQ would probably not be cost feasible. Neither would Auto-EQ. The REW is somewhat of an Auto-EQ in itself... it does take connecting it up but once connected it will take your measurements, suggest filters, and load them... but it will allow you super tweak abilities prior to loading, including mic correction values and a house curve target.

So loading the suggested filters from REW straight to this unit may be possible? That would be amazing.

So loading the suggested filters from REW straight to this unit may be possible? That would be amazing.
It is already possible with the current BFD. ;)

I was thinking exporting from REW straight into the new unit via USB.

I was thinking exporting from REW straight into the new unit via USB.
Yes, it is already possible via MIDI (but one can use a converter).

Ahhh...... very good.

I agree with Tim.

Behringer - You must build this!!!!!! :D

I'm in for at least one, or perhaps two of these.

JP

• An easier user interface, BIG plus. I've only tuned the 1124 once and have completely forgotten how now.
• A BETTER mic than the RS meter is a sell point for me.
• Dim or off lights.
• Auto on.
• Design the box so the rack mounting flanges can be turned inward inside the box giving users the option. The flanges prolly cost less than 2¢ ea. anyway.
• SONNIE PARKER writes the instruction manual and gets royalty check (on top of initial fee) for every unit sold. Otherwise no sale. Bet you like this one, eh Sonnie? ;) :D

Yeah count me in I will be happy if it came with the behringer mic and a 25 foot cable in the box not as an add on. (what is the 1124 usable range)

• An easier user interface, BIG plus. I've only tuned the 1124 once and have completely forgotten how now.
That's why you gotta download the free RoomEQ Wizard. No more worrying with how to tune it. The REW will suggest the filters and load them for ya. Makes life much mo easier.

• A BETTER mic than the RS meter is a sell point for me.
It would be hard to automatically include the mic with the unit because so many folks already own a good mic. But it can be offered as an option for additional cost. Currently you can get the Behringer ECM8000 at Parts Express for 50 bucks. It's not perfect, but it's a whole lot better than the RS Meter mic, which isn't even correct with the correction values. You can have the ECM8k calibrated for 40 bucks, but if you could find someone to calibrate the RS Meter mic, it would probably cost $250-300. Ridiculous I know.

• Design the box so the rack mounting flanges can be turned inward inside the box giving users the option. The flanges prolly cost less than 2¢ ea. anyway.
I think we'll probably ask for these to be included but make it where the case will look nice if the user chooses not to use them... vs. having the ugly holes on the side if you take them off on the current 1124.

• SONNIE PARKER writes the instruction manual and gets royalty check (on top of initial fee) for every unit sold. Otherwise no sale. Bet you like this one, eh Sonnie? ;) :D
You are my friend for life! This is the best recommendation yet! http://www.snapbug.ws/images/nodyes.gif

I'm sure we'll write a BSE GUIDE similar to the BFD GUIDE. Although the GUIDE has always been free... it does cost me a little (domain, hosting, time, etc.) but I've enjoyed it and have met a lot of valuable friends because of it. I simply hope to be able to offer the new units for sale... as a single unit and packaged with mic, etc.

I do have an AV business but I don't do Internet sales... don't even have a website for it and don't mention it on any of my personal webpages, including the BFD GUIDE. But I would make an exception and offer the BSE2496 at a bargain price if I can work it out with Behringer and not have to buy $25k of their products, including items I'd not want to worry with selling. That was the hang up with the BFD1124... they wanted me to buy and stock a bunch of other equipment that I didn't want to sale. Maybe this time it will be different since this will be basically their first consumer product. Plus, we'll be plugging Behringer heavily for free! They gotta like that.

Yeah count me in I will be happy if it came with the behringer mic and a 25 foot cable in the box not as an add on. (what is the 1124 usable range)

Hey wildchild22... small world huh?

What do you mean by usable range? Frequency range maybe? The adjustable frequency range it 20hz to 20khz. The suggested range on the new unit will be 10hz to 400hz. A big key feature for just about everyone is the ability to filter the response below 20hz.

As noted above, it's hard to just include the mic and cable since so many others already own it, but it can be part of a package deal.

Are we looking at next year for the release?

1. adjustable rumble filter (10Hz to 20 Hz)
2. fix ground loop hum problem
3. RCA connectors in and out
4. commercial line levels only (no need for pro levels)
5. better high level clipping resistance (more dynamic range)
6. USB instead of MIDI
7. RS SPL or mic level inputs (selectable on/off phantom mic power)
8 use with RoomEqWizard and give John a piece of the action!

I will buy one for my downstairs system. The 1124P is working great upstairs (albeit with a cheater plug).

Are we looking at next year for the release?

I sure hope not!

As SMS is selling at 500+, why would this be priced at 200-150? Maybe they could make decent margins with minimal feature set, but any business would try to price it at what the market is willing to bear.

Does anyone know how frequently Behringer introduces new products in a line? could help us estimate when they can get this out?

The BSE2496C is targeting a different market than the SMS-1.

Exactly... the new unit will not do everything the SMS-1 will do, but it will have a couple of features the SMS-1 does not have as well.

One thing to keep in mind is you are paying big bucks on the SMS-1 for Auto-EQ and we essentially have this with the RoomEQ Wizard and it can be tweaked to the ends of the earth. Granted it's a little more to connect and a little more to learn, but those who choose to use the new unit are willing to use REW or the old manual method just to save the extra money. Plus many of us consider it fun.

Behringer has a lot of products and they seem to regularly introduce new products. Hopefully within a few days to a few weeks we should have a more definite time frame of what to expect.

Right now we are trying to show as much interest as possible by asking as many people as possible to post here showing interest. The more that post the quicker we are likely to get things done. We've had 53 posts so far today... some obviously duplicates, but if we have a couple hundred within a few days then that would be more likely to open their eyes a little quicker... and this is just one forum. PM me for more info!

Ok, I'll contribute.

http://www.dvdplaza.fi/forums/showthread.php?t=35052

There is a small "BFD for dummies" guide I wrote on a Finnish AV forum around a year ago. I though it might help since the manual is a bit hard to read and Sonnie's guide is written in English.

Today that thread has more than 300 replies, around 20.000 views and MANY people who have bought the BFD.

Oh, count me in if the new unit comes. I will definitely buy it. And write a new guide too.

Sonnie,
Are you going to post on other forums, or would you mind if we do it - and link to this thread? I can think of at least 5-6 other sites with a decent amount of traffic that would enjoy this info.
Jim

Cool Ilkka... I didn't realize that. Man... if you had a translator program you could just copy the GUIDE completely... stick your name on it... I don't mind. It's simply there to help whoever needs help. Of course you might be able to write it better or easier to understand to begin with.

I remember back when we first got the GUIDE up we announced it in HTF and that was one hot thread for years... then it got lost when their server crashed.

The new BFD Forum has taken off pretty well so far... only been around since October 2005 and we just keep growing. It's slow but it will really blossom in time.


Jim... I've posted in AVForums, HTGuide, Home Theater Forum, Home Theater Talk, and of course the BFD Forum. I got banned from Audiocircle because I had a complaint with a new product of one of the manufacturer threads and asked for help... the owner is friends with the manufacturer and I got blasted for even bringing up the problem. The manufacturer did make it right, but none the less, they banned me because I wouldn't let them beat me up. Anyway, I obviously didn't post there.

If you can get folks elsewhere to post here... that would be great because this is by far the best thread we got going to far. I just didn't know how far I could go with asking folks to post in another forum. I didnt wanna get pinched ya know.

Hey , l'll take one of these :) ...........and l reckon so would other aussies as well, count me in sonnie!...........ken

Not only will I buy one myself, I will also recomend it to more people. I've been a bit reluctant about recomending the BFD to the not so hardcore users. The reason for this has been the turn on/off pop, and the ground hum which scares the living daylights out of some

I´ll preorder it right away if Behringer makes that possible..

They could potentially build this into a subwoofer amp, would be a heck of a selling point for one of those amps.

A few of the existing features on the 1124p that I think should definitely be retained:

1) I love jog dials, I think most people prefer an selection/level knob versus button pushes. The jog dial on the old 1124p should be retained.

2) The visual display of how many EQs are active is great. It's solid confirmation that the settings in the REW were downloaded correctly. A similar "number of active EQs" should also be on the new unit.

3) Detachable power cord is great. Don't make it attached, and don't give us a brick.

The new design would address several problems I experienced with the BFD: a ground loop, what to do if you do not rack mount, and leaving the power on.

It would be nice to get rid of the cheater plug. Either auto on or a discrete on/off is also a nice to have feature.

I ended up making side rails to cover the openings on either side of the unit since mine is not rack mounted.

A more conservative black chassis is a nice to have.

The only reason I have the BFD now is because of the excellent job Sonnie did with his BFD guide. A well written, step by step guide. No way could I have set up the unit with only the Beringer manual. So, Sonnie, if this product comes to fruition, and you write another guide, I believe you should be paid commission on each new unit sold.

Another suggestion would be to supply a CD with test tones, say from 10 Hz up to 400 Hz in the proper increments. CDs are cheap and you could include a spreadsheet already set up and all the user would need to do is input data.

I can visualize the loads upon loads of 1124p units on eBay and audiogon...

As SMS is selling at 500+, why would this be priced at 200-150? Maybe they could make decent margins with minimal feature set, but any business would try to price it at what the market is willing to bear.

Another suggestion would be to supply a CD with test tones, say from 10 Hz up to 400 Hz in the proper increments. CDs are cheap and you could include a spreadsheet already set up and all the user would need to do is input data

Some of you guys are missing the 2nd half of the equation. This product is targeted to work hand in hand with the RoomEQ Wizard. While the RoomEQ Wizard won't be needed to get good use out of it, combining them would give you all the tools you need to manage just about every aspect of your bass - I see it giving much more flexibility and options than the SMS.

Sign me up!!! I would definitely order one of these as soon as it's announced if it matches the specs in the OP.

I would also be interested in this product. Nice features for the price. I also need a mic so a discounted package price would be good.

They could potentially build this into a subwoofer amp, would be a heck of a selling point for one of those amps.

A few of the existing features on the 1124p that I think should definitely be retained:

1) I love jog dials, I think most people prefer an selection/level knob versus button pushes. The jog dial on the old 1124p should be retained.

2) The visual display of how many EQs are active is great. It's solid confirmation that the settings in the REW were downloaded correctly. A similar "number of active EQs" should also be on the new unit.

3) Detachable power cord is great. Don't make it attached, and don't give us a brick.

1) I believe we'll be keeping the jog dial... but I need to put that in there to make sure. I was kinda lookin' at it as a given but maybe it's not.

2)I think this was being looked at as a given too... but it's a good point to make sure there are no misunderstandings about what we want left over from the BFD.

3)Good idea that I haven't seen recommended, but it would be on the third list group for non-essential cosmetic requests provided it's cost feasible. Just my thinkin'.

I can visualize the loads upon loads of 1124p units on eBay and audiogon...

At 50 bucks each... http://snapbug.ws/images/yikes.gif

Some of you guys are missing the 2nd half of the equation. This product is targeted to work hand in hand with the RoomEQ Wizard. While the RoomEQ Wizard won't be needed to get good use out of it, combining them would give you all the tools you need to manage just about every aspect of your bass - I see it giving much more flexibility and options than the SMS.
Agree!

Some of the key features of the RoomEQ Wizard:

* Free!
* Support for the Behringer Feedback Destroyer Pro models DSP1124P and FBQ2496, including filter setup via Midi (Midi interface required).
* Signal Generator offers sine waves, square waves, linear and logarithmic sine sweeps and pink noise (full range, speaker calibration, sub calibration and custom filtered)
* SPL Meter shows SPL, peak dB, rms dB and levels of the 2nd and 3rd harmonic when testing with sine tones
* Compensation for C-weighting when using an external SPL meter as the input, calibration files can be loaded for microphones or SPL meters
* Existing measurement results can be imported from ETF 5 or from text files
* Frequency response can be measured at manually selected points or automatically across any chosen range within 10Hz to 20kHz in steps of 5Hz, 2Hz, 1Hz, 0.5Hz or 1/3, 1/6, 1/12, 1/15, 1/20, 1/30 or 1/60th of an octave, or using fast, logarithmically swept sine signals for approx 0.36Hz resolution across the measured range. Sound card levels are adjusted automatically
* Impulse response is derived when measuring with the swept sine signal, allowing spectral decay plots, waterfalls and energy-time curves to be generated. Impulse responses can be exported to and imported from WAV files with 16, 24 or 32-bit resolution.
* Automatic identification of peaks in the response, automatic assignment of filters to peaks and optimisation of filter parameters to counter the peaks
* Filter settings and sets of measured data can be saved to and restored from files. The filters' impulse response can be exported as a WAV file for use with a convolver plug-in, such as http://convolver.sourceforge.net/
* House curve text files can be loaded and used as a target response.
* Mic calibration correction files can be loaded and will automatically adjust the response.
* Tweakable to the next decade!
* Constantly updated with new features.
* Comprehensive help files within the application and on-line

I'd say the new unit will be more flexible than the SMS-1 when you consider the REW software and its' abilities. Granted it will be a little more to connect and a little more to learn, but you will be saving $300 too. If you'd rather not have to worry about REW or the little bit of extra that would be required then the SMS-1 might be a better choice.

If this whole plan comes together I'll be a happy camper. Good job, Sonnie, from a fellow Alabamian.

Thanks Eddie! Good to see another Alabamian around... don't seem to see too terribly many.

Well, you know, since most of us can't do readin', writin', and rithmetic' too well....
:rolleyes:

Yeah... us hillbilly's are real bright ain't we?

"I see no use whatsoever for a unit purely to EQ your subwoofer."

Then explain to all the BFD owners, many of whom claim it to be the singlest biggest improvement ever made to their system, why they're mistaken.

"A big piece of what is going to sell this is the user interface."

I agree. Rather than inputting numbers, which is very nonintuitive, I'd like to see the controls mimic analog EQ's, with virtual knobs or sliders, or even just buttons, that adjust gain, Q, and BW.

"As SMS is selling at 500+, why would this be priced at 200-150?"

Mostly because of the SMS-1's very nice video display. That alone attracts a whole different market from DIY'ers because of its ease of use.

"This product is targeted to work hand in hand with the RoomEQ Wizard."

This worries me a bit. From looking through the REW thread it seems the chances are pretty good that a person like me (minimally computer literate) would spend a good weekend working through all the potential pitfalls in getting it up and running.

"This product is targeted to work hand in hand with the RoomEQ Wizard."

This worries me a bit. From looking through the REW thread it seems the chances are pretty good that a person like me (minimally computer literate) would spend a good weekend working through all the potential pitfalls in getting it up and running.
I worried just like you when I first looked at it. It's really very simple though. If you download it and just simply follow the HELP files it pretty much does everything but hold your hand while it walks you through the connections and setup. I wouldn't get to over concerned based on the thread. If you do stump your toe... cry loud and folks will hear ya... seriously though, you can post in the thread if you do happen to encounter a problem and easily get an answer. Once you do get it up and running then you wonder how you ever did without it. If you ever took the time to learn how to setup the BFD, once you've setup REW you'll realize it is easier.

Noah,

Setting up REW to use is actually fairly easy after you get the hang of it. Most of my time is spent stringing the wires across the room. I think if all you are interested in doing is taking some subwoofer measurements, a quick cheat-sheet style guide can be made to get you to start using REW. IMO, the easiest way to do it is to use whatever other people have already used and works. For now that means Radio Shack meter plus Sound Blaster MP3+ external sound card. When I switched to a Nady CM100 microphone and a Behringer UB1202 mixer, there was a bit of a curve to figure out what the gains on the mixer should be set for proper microphone level. but when the new BFD unit comes out with its built-in microphone power/amp, it would be a simple matter of "set gain at +5 for CM-100".

If the author of the REW is up to it, he could possibly build in a "sub measurement" wizard of sorts that walks the user through all necessary settings.

I've been using REW for a few months now and I don't know what the other 75% of the menus, buttons and settings in the program does. But the parts of the program that I do know lets me take very fast and reasonably accurate measurements of my subwoofer, and download new settings to my BFD in 3-4 seconds. Whatever time I've invested in learning how to use REW with my BFD, the return in time saved was well worth it.

Good points LeeLee...

Remember that the HELP files have pictures and words... it's really and truly easy to understand. Just take one step at a time. After you've went through it once, it becomes elementary.

I was also worried sick before I bought the BFD, the more I read about, the more confused I got. But when I got the thing it turned out to be as easy as it could be. In less then an hour I was connected, measured and adjusted.

Noah has a good point above about making it seem that you must use REW for this new product to help.

Some people just will not be comfortable with using REW, but will be happy to do sine wave test tones or even just a rough freq sweep with Avia to identify the big peaks. For those people, being able to enter adjustments independent of any specific piece of software is nearly a requirement for purchase.

Tim

Actually I don't even own a midi cable. I do use REW to measure and then ask for suggested filters and then tune those a tad based on what I prefer... and usually I'll fix any dips if need be. Once I've got my filters I write down the settings and manually input them into the BFD. Of course I've done it so many times I can about do it blindfolded.

The REW will come in handy for those who want to learn it and save time... as well as those who want something similar to an Auto-EQ. I think most of the time when we've brought up the "designed to be used with REW" is because we want people to understand why we are not asking for an Auto-EQ built-in to the new unit.

I would also be interested in a product like this. Very interested.

On the flip side of the coin, I haven't used my BFD yet because I haven't had time, and because I've had problems with REW. It doesn't like my computer. If there was a way to make the BSE talk through USB (or midi) to REW on my PC, have REW control it to think of filters and interpret measurements and do what it does best, but have the BSE generate the tone signals (from R/L analog outs to the a/v receiver) thereby simplifying things, I think that could be potentially helpful.

I see it like this:
1. REW on PC, connected to BSE through USB (or usb-to-midi)
2. Mic (Ratshak, or nice behringer one package priced as an add-on option) plugged into front of BSE
3. BSE connected to A/V Reciever via L/R analog
4. Then A/V reciever connect like before with sub pre-out(s) to BSE

Keep in mind I hadn't had time to get REW working yet, which is why I soured on it for awhile. Something like this may be too expensive, but it might be a good idea to help standardize setup and use.

Is this becoming too much like an SMS-1?

Now I want to go use my BFD even though I'm too busy :D

My sub is on order right now, but I always planned on a BFD in the future. I think I'd be up for one of these, but I will admit I haven't read the guide and don't know each and every benefit.

Sonnie,
Everyone is very excited about this, but how interested in Behringer? Would they be satisified with a couple thousand potential buyers? I know that there may be more as word gets out, but we have to be realistic and acknowledge that serious home audio/home theater (especially the tweakers who would be interested in investing the time and effort in this product) buffs are a very small group compared to Behringers normal audience - amateur and pro audio professionals. What are they saying?

As a side note (and this is directed at the people who question the developmental costs of this product and compare it to the SMS-1), doesn't Behringer just have to integrate their software designs into this product? It isn't like they are starting from scratch with this. I believe that they have done most, if not all, the software development already - it is just spread out in their other products. Any insight is welcome.
Jim

Jim... I think you got it pretty much right on the fact that Behringer has most of these features in one product or another. There are few they don't have but they are minor and would be easy to integrate.

As far as Behringer's interest... they claim they are very interested. I suspect there are many more HT enthusiast in everytown that has pro audio professionals and think about all the cities where there are no pro audio professionals. I firmly believe that we, the HT enthusiast world, put the BFD on the map for Behringer. I just don't think we are a small group in comparison. We have little to choose from while the pro audio pro's have several different processor/equalizer products to choose from, Behringer being just one of them. We've pretty much got the BFD, SMS, and that's about it for sub-eq'ing... so we're buying those like crazy, it's what everyone is using. The pro audio folks have Alesis, ART, Ashly, Behringer, DBX, Furman, Peavey, DOD, Aphex, Phonic, Lexicon, Sabine, Nady, Yamaha, Mackie, Alto, Avalon, BSS, Community, Klark, Presonus, Radio Design, Rane, Symetrix, Sure, EV, Inter-M, Gemini, Pyramid, GemSound, API, Crane, Drawmer, DW Fearn, Empirical, EAR, GML, Langevin, Great River, Manley, PrismSound, Speck, SPL, Thermionic... and the list goes on and on and on.

How about a really, really good manual? I like the manual with the sms-1 but as a newbie to eqing it still leaves me scratching my head. I would like a manual I could sit down and read and learn from. One that starts out for as eqing for dummies and then gets into the hows and whys of it and gives pointers on how better to use the gear and understanding why it does what it does! Out of the thousands of dollars I've spent on equipment not one of them came with a manual that impresses me.

I will buy one :)

How about a really, really good manual? I like the manual with the sms-1 but as a newbie to eqing it still leaves me scratching my head. I would like a manual I could sit down and read and learn from. One that starts out for as eqing for dummies and then gets into the hows and whys of it and gives pointers on how better to use the gear and understanding why it does what it does! Out of the thousands of dollars I've spent on equipment not one of them came with a manual that impresses me.
See if somthing like this would work: BFD GUIDE (http://bfdguide.ws)

If cost is a concern we'd be best off minimizing any board changes. Will we hear from Behringer some time soon? Perhaps they could supply some constraints?

I don't see why we need two channels, for example, if it will save product cost and street price.
-------
One more feature that I am not sure has been listed:
- built in test tones... would that only be a benefit if there was built-in charting?

Here's an idea that might blow some of the cost contraints... any chance of porting REW onto the box? If so, make using a PC optional (so you'd need a video chip of some sort).

Btw, I use REW manually to experiment with filters and "decode" the 1/60 octave dial. It really is useful that way.

As for user interface there are 2 choices:

on unit, or on screen.

If there is a USB connection I figure there should be a network connection that way you can interface it with no software needed. Just plug in a cat-5 and type the ip of the unit (will be in the manual) and you have a web interface (easy to code) that will show the graph of its results from your room. Then with the applet you can 'grab' the curve and pull it to the shape you like (obviously if the curve won't go a particular way it is due to your room). Underneath it will show you the filter settings you chose based on how you got the curve to look the way it is. If that is physically impossible there can just be sliders under the curve of your room to adjust accordingly.

Seth

I don't see why we need two channels, for example, if it will save product cost and street price.


I have two subs. Right now, I'm eq'ing both subs with the same filters. But they are hooked up on seperate channels, and when I get more time, I'm going to try if I can eq each sub individually to acheive better results.

I have two subs. Right now, I'm eq'ing both subs with the same filters. But they are hooked up on seperate channels, and when I get more time, I'm going to try if I can eq each sub individually to acheive better results.
Are you feeding two inputs?

I'm eq'ing two subs with one channel... one input and one output split to each sub. Had Bluejeancables build me a 1/4" to dual RCA cable.



If cost is a concern we'd be best off minimizing any board changes. Will we hear from Behringer some time soon? Perhaps they could supply some constraints?
I hope to have a more complete and thorough suggestion list for them today. I have no idea how long it will take to get them to give us an idea of if and when they can do it. I think after it's submitted they might give us some constraints then.

I don't see why we need two channels, for example, if it will save product cost and street price.
You'll have to beat a lot of folks up on this one. It's one major complaint about the SMS-1 with only one output. Too many folks have or want two subs and they are place asymmetrically and need separate filtering. Plus, that would put a damper in your above suggestion. :D

One more feature that I am not sure has been listed:
- built in test tones... would that only be a benefit if there was built-in charting?
It's a possibility, but we'd need an monitoring output for the tones to be sent to a software program to chart a graph and to send the tones through the pre-pro or receiver so that we could measure integration with mains. That creates another output. Not sure what the cost would be on either.

Here's an idea that might blow some of the cost contraints... any chance of porting REW onto the box? If so, make using a PC optional (so you'd need a video chip of some sort).
The with that is JohnM is constantly upgrading and improving the REW program. We would then need upgradeability, which would create another input. The total implenentation could get expensive... but we could at least ask.


One thing we might propose is offering two units, if costs constraints prevent us from getting what we want on the low-end unit at $150-200. We could eliminate the SPL Meter and Mic Amp in the low-end unit for those that already have this setup and don't need it. Then on the higher-end unit offer those features and maybe a couple more. An SPL Meter only cost 40 bucks or so separately and can be used without a separate mic or mic amp. If folks wanted a better mic then they would need a mic amp, and they would still need an SPL Meter. I would think that a built-in mic amp and SPL Meter with a monitoring output would be cheaper than buying those two items separately, but you'd still have to buy a mic at about a minimum of 50 bucks.

Interesting thread.

Behringer certainly has the audio expertise to design and build the required Parmetric EQ.

The quesion becomes what is the market size for tweakheads interested in playing with a PC to configure their home theatre? Is it big enough to warrant production of such a device? Recall that the majority of FBD users are using it in a pro-audio environement, for its intended use (real-time elimination of feddback).

Velodyne has targeted their SMS product at an audience less technically sophisiticated than the average BFD tweaker. I suspect that market is comaparitively much larger.

Thus, and interesting "what-if" scenario..... can a standalone device be designed and produced to run the very user friendly software? A black-box running embedded Linux and the Room EQ Wizard software...midi port for connection to Behringer product (or other as the software evolves), video subsystem and video out for connection to home theatre. Ehance the software for control by remote.

Or can this functionality be embedded into a Behringer product at reasonable cost? Does Behringer have enough expertise in O/S and software integration? such as device would have a potentially huge market if distributed through exisiting subwoofer manfactures as a bundle.

Doesn anyone have venture capital money for us avsforum designers? LMAO

regards Colin

Are you feeding two inputs?


Yep. I split the mono sub out coming out of the receiver then input on both the left and right channel of the BFD, then from there into the left and right of my pro amp.

If I spend enough time with it, I should be able to tweak the two subs individually to acheive better results with fewer total cuts that doing it individually.

I'm also hoping by the time that I buy my next receiver that stereo sub out becomes standard. - fat chance.

Ryan, depending on what receiver you are considering... several already have dual or triple sub pre-outs.



The quesion becomes what is the market size for tweakheads interested in playing with a PC to configure their home theatre? Is it big enough to warrant production of such a device?
These are really two separate issues. Behringer doesn't have to be concerned with whether the tweakheads are willing to play with their PC. Their current models will work with REW, so there's nothing else they have to do beyond what they've already done. They wouldn't have to warrant production based on whether we are willing to fiddle with outside software programs.

As far as if there is sufficient tweakheads interested in fiddling with REW, just look at the numerous threads/posts that relate to REW in the various forums... it's astronomical. Not to mention the fact that John Mulcahy does everything but hold your hand in his HELP files. It is very simple to use if you don't mind looking at pictures and reading a little.


Recall that the majority of FBD users are using it in a pro-audio environement, for its intended use (real-time elimination of feddback).

I just don't know that we for certain can say this. As posted earlier, I suspect there are many more HT enthusiast in everytown that has pro audio professionals and think about all the cities where there are no pro audio professionals. I firmly believe that we, the HT enthusiast world, put the BFD on the map for Behringer. I just don't think we are a small group in comparison. We have little to choose from while the pro audio pro's have several different processor/equalizer products to choose from, Behringer being just one of them. We've pretty much got the BFD, SMS, and that's about it for sub-eq'ing... so we're buying those like crazy, it's what everyone is using. The pro audio folks have Alesis, ART, Ashly, Behringer, DBX, Furman, Peavey, DOD, Aphex, Phonic, Lexicon, Sabine, Nady, Yamaha, Mackie, Alto, Avalon, BSS, Community, Klark, Presonus, Radio Design, Rane, Symetrix, Sure, EV, Inter-M, Gemini, Pyramid, GemSound, API, Crane, Drawmer, DW Fearn, Empirical, EAR, GML, Langevin, Great River, Manley, PrismSound, Speck, SPL, Thermionic... and the list goes on and on and on.

Velodyne has targeted their SMS product at an audience less technically sophisiticated than the average BFD tweaker. I suspect that market is comaparitively much larger.
I don't see how we can necessarily say that either. The BFD has been around the HT world for 6 years as a sub-eq and it cost less than 1/3 of the SMS. Tweakheads typically think cheap.

Thus, and interesting "what-if" scenario..... can a standalone device be designed and produced to run the very user friendly software?
It doesn't have to... the user does it and it's already user friendly. The unit only has to have the midi connection that is already on the BFD.

Or can this functionality be embedded into a Behringer product at reasonable cost? Does Behringer have enough expertise in O/S and software integration?
We aren't asking them to do this. We realize this would probably get complicated and expensive, not to mention it would require upgradeability (more money) because JohnM is constantly upgrading and improving the REW software. Most folks that buy or have bought a BFD are willing to use a separate program, if they use one at all. You can take an SPL meter, 1/6 octave test tone CD, and a piece of paper and do it manually. Thousands did it this way for years... not to mention there are other software programs like ETF and Spectra that others have used to help eliminate the manual method.

If Behringer did design a new software program, people would still have to learn it. Take a look at the DEQ2496 manual or the BFD manuals... we don't want Behringer developing any software for us. I believe the majority would much rather keep REW or do it manually.

I get where this is going now. Next question.

How about a unit like this that does six channels? Like the Rane THX-44 in concept, but with much more flexibility.

In Behringer dollars, I'd be willing to pay around $500 if they delivered on that.

Ryan, depending on what receiver you are considering... several already have dual or triple sub pre-outs.

Okay, I'm getting off topic here. Outlaw has a receiver which has dual mono sub out. Better than a single sub out, but still mono. IIRC Lexicon has on stereo sub out, where the information in the left channel below the crossover is sent to the left sub, and vis-versa for the right channel. Very cool, but very expensive. I'm thinking that my next receiver will be $1000 - $1500 and purchaced when Blue-Ray or HD-DVD becomes common, hopefully in a two years or less.

Okay, back on topic.

I think we all need to let Behringer worry about the market size and all the other business issues. We should be focusing on the design of the unit, determining what features are:

MUST HAVE! or I won't buy it.
Would be nice.
I don't have an opinion about.
Stupid and should be dumped.

I would imagine that Behringer is most interested in, what are the minumum features needed so that we'll part with $150. It is easy to come up with a pie in the sky feature list, but I'm not sure how that gives any insight into what I would spend money on.

I get where this is going now. Next question.

How about a unit like this that does six channels? Like the Rane THX-44 in concept, but with much more flexibility.

In Behringer dollars, I'd be willing to pay around $500 if they delivered on that.
Maybe the higher-end model could do this... but we want to keep the price at about 200 bills if possible. A higher-end model woucl be developed for mo money.

Why do you need 6 channels in a sub-eq that's only going to filter from 10hz to 400hz? You got 6 subs? http://www.snapbug.ws/images/yikes.gif


Excuse me Ryan... you wrote "stereo" output... not dual mono. My bad!

Good point you make on Behringer market and design focus. I'm in the process right now of making up the list in three categories similar to yours.

Why do you need 6 channels in a sub-eq that's only going to filter from 10hz to 400hz? You got 6 subs? http://www.snapbug.ws/images/yikes.gif


I was thinking along the lines of full signal processing for a 5.1 system, all channels.

I would think that the cost difference from a processor limited from 10-400 and one that does 10Hz-20kHz wouldn't be that huge, though I could be way off. I sort of assumed that most of the cost is the software running on the core chipset.

Basically a six channel version of DEQ2496 (http://www.behringer.com/DEQ2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG). I'd rather learn and manage the one box for all the channels, though surely it would be more expensive.

I see where you are going completely, just figured I'd mumble this in here if Behringer takes a look. Oddly, it seems nobody is doing this, even on the higher end of the market.

Thanks for the encouragement re REW, I'll take another look.

Getting in a little late on this one...Here's my wishlist:

-- True Linkwitz Transform, in addition to 6 & 12dB/oct shelving
-- Selectable order (1st-4th or 6th) and "style" (bessel, L-R, butterworth) on infrasonic HPF with1Hz increments for Fc down to 10Hz

Those 2 things alone would get me to upgrade. It would completely eliminate any advantage of a plate amp!

Other things:
--How about an external connection for +15/0/-15 for any additional response-shaping network one would want to add?
-- Rubber Feet!!! for those of us who will take the ears off
-- RCA inputs

I think the 1/60 bandwidth is a good thing, actually. There's a lot of Hertz between 1/3oct and 1/6oct. How about a "Q"-based definition of bandwidth?

I agree with everything else on Sonnie's list thru (21). I think 22,23,24 should be the first to go if $$$ gets tight. Keep soft-start at all costs. 12VDC trigger and auto-on...not so important to me, probably is to others, though.

I'd definitely pay $150 street for this.

Put me on the beta-test list!!!

--Greg

PS--It's funny...I was just thinking about trying to find someone who could anodize (in black) and re-silkscreen (in white) the front panel of my BFD. Probably wouldn't be cheap...Heck, does Behringer just want to run a small batch of new faceplates and offer them on AVSForum?

Okay... I've revamped the list as follow, as if I were sending it to Behringer.

I'm sure I've left something out or mis-worded some things. Please look over it carefully and help me out. THANKS!

We are basing the BSE2496 on similarities to several of your products such as the former DSP1124, the current FBQ2496, DEQ2496 and DCX2496, none of which fit our needs precisely. Following is a list of features in three categories, the first being the essentials. These are features we need and must have as well as several requested changes from the BFD. Second are features/changes that we really want but could live without if we just had too, and they should have a minimal cost factor. Third are features available in other Behringer models that we would like to consider but could be reserved for a second model if they will cause the unit to exceed our target price. We do not need a software program. The target price we desire is $200-250 retail which will allow for a street price of approximately $150-200. It is imperative that we keep the cost to a minimum, as this is and always has been the driving force behind BFD sales in the home theater world.

Essential features/changes that should have a very minimal cost factor:

1. One of the biggest complaints about the BFD has been the turn-on thump and hum. A lot of people use a cheater plug or have to buy a filter to eliminate the hum. We need a unit that is has a double insulated chassis with a two prong plug or a ground lift switch. Soft power ON/OFF with selectable Auto-On detect via sub signal and external DC ON/OFF capability and/or a 12v trigger delay. Somehow we need to eliminate the thump and hum. The majority would like either an Auto-On detect and/or a 12v trigger. Include universal power input (110-220V/50-60Hz). A detachable power cord would be nice but not essential.

2. The ability to filter/equalize down to 10hz. Numerous movie soundtracks now have information below 20hz. We have always measured below 20hz, but we haven’t been able to filter/adjust the response. This is a must have and should be something that is easily accomplished. The desired frequency range should be from 10hz to 400hz with adjustable bandwidth and adjustable gain from -24db to +16db. We don’t really need anything higher than 400hz with a sub equalizer.

3. Two independent channels with 12 parametric filters each (allow coupling and series looping). Use 24 bit / 96khz sampling.

4. For the consumer home use… most would like to leave the mounting brackets off. There are ugly holes on the sides of the BFD if the mounting brackets are removed. We want the chassis to be finished all around (no big gaps or holes if the brackets are removed… just screw holes) but include the mounting brackets as an option for those who may want to mount it in a rack. Keep the size of the unit to 17 inches in width. Include some rubber feet so the unit can be placed on top of other equipment. Keep the normal buttons and jog dial as on the BFD.

5. The biggest complaint with the newer FBQ2496 is the fact it only has one memory preset. The former 1124 had 10 memory presets. We need at least 4. Most consumers want to store several different filtered curves. For instance, many will have a house curve for movies and a flat curve for music… or may want to try store several different curves and swap between them to determine which one they like best. We can’t do these things with one preset. Very few people will buy the FBQ2496 because of this reason.

6. In the consumer market most of our equipment has RCA or Balanced XLR connections. Swap out the ¼ inch INPUT/OUTPUTS with RCA and Balanced XLR INPUT/OUTPUTS.

7. We will have to continue to have MIDI input. The majority would rather have a USB input vs. a MIDI input for loading filters from their computer software program. Give us a USB input on the front of the unit under a flip cover. Computer manufacturers put these on the front of computer with tiny covers that flip up or down. It’s better on the front because we need easy access to it. If it’s in the back and in an equipment rack/cabinet, sometimes it can be very difficult to get to for connections.

8. Keep the three-way IN/OUT bypass switch with selectable INPUT/OUTPUT.

9. The lights on the front panel are extremely too bright for most people in the consumer home theater world. Include a selectable switch or dimmer that allows the light on the front panel to be dimmed and/or turned off. Soft blue and green lights are preferable instead of red.

10. Keep the switchable button for -10dBV and 4dBu operating levels that is on the back of the BFD now.

11. To build a house curve we need a simple shelf filter. i.e. selectable linear boost between two selectable frequencies.

12. Adjustable/selectable 6db-48db/octave subsonic roll-off filter in small increments from 25hz down to 10hz… selectable at 10, 13, 16, 19, 22, and 25hz. Or make it continuously variable from 10hz-25hz.

13. Time Delay and Phase Correction (to integrate 2 subs together).

14. Keep S/N Ratio and specs to at least what the FBQ2496 is... maybe better.

15. Small and simple 6 button wireless IR remote with ON and OFF buttons (discrete codes) ... and Preset 1,2,3,4 buttons for program select. If you can add more buttons at very minimal cost then add a wholesale volume control to control the output level of the BFD to the sub. Other buttons for other functions could be added too, but only if cost to add are very minimal.

Those are the essential wants/needs and simple changes wanted/needed to make this unit an extremely popular unit that will sell like crazy. It should be very easy to keep the street price at $150-$200 for this unit.

Next are features/changes that we would really like to have but would make or break most people from buying the above. These are also features/changes that should have a minimal cost factor to include.

Requested features/changes that won’t make or break us, but would be nice to have:

1. Most home theater consumers buy black equipment… not all but most. Offer the unit in black or silver. If we can’t have an option, then make it available in black only instead of silver. Keep the front of the unit straight and with no slant. The FBQ is ugly for lack of a better word.

2. Eliminate the graphic design on the top of the unit… this is not pretty in home theater systems. If most of us couldn’t hide the BFD now, we probably wouldn’t own it.

3. Give us an Anti-clipping mechanism along with the INPUT/OUTPUT LED indicators with possibly higher dynamic peak input before clipping.

4. We would rather have the frequency readout in Hz (not base + fine). 1hz increments with 0.1hz fine increments will work.

5. Use standard octave indicators such as 1/3, 1/6, 1/12, 1/24, 1/1, 2/1 etc... instead of 1/60, 10/60, 20/60, 40/60, 60/60, 120/60 etc… OR use HZ such as 5hz, 7hz, 10hz, 20hz, etc.

6. Include a Gain/Volume knob to control the entire output of the unit to the sub. Include this control on the remote.



Next are features that you already have in some of your units, but we are uncertain as to the cost of these features and whether it would cause the new unit to exceed our target street price of $150-200. It may be that we could stand a street price of $250 (retail $299) with these extra features. We assume it would depend on your cost to integrate them into the new unit. Or if feasible offer the above in one unit and add these features to another unit at a little higher cost.

Desirable features with unknown cost factor:

1. If only one of these desirable features could be included in the above while keeping at our target street price, it would be the crossover. Individual crossover filter types (Butterworth, Bessel, and Linkwitz-Riley) per channel with selectable roll-off characteristics from 6db-48db/octave.

2. Some consumers already own a mic, mic amp, and/or an SPL meter to do their measuring. A built-in RTA mic/line input with phantom power and GAIN control would be good for those who do not already own these needed items. Obviously if they do not own a mic they could pick up the ECM8000K, which we are now highly recommending, although it does require calibration and correction values below 40hz. This mic could easily be offered with a package deal. However, if the mic/line input is included, then we will have to have a separate RCA mic monitoring output to allow for computer program monitoring. The input does us no good without the output. These inputs and outputs would also need to be conveniently located on the front face plate under a small flip cover. Remember, we will be accessing this initially and occasionally for connections with our computer software program.

3. Many people already own an SPL meter, which is required to eq our subs. But just as above, if they do not, this would be a good option for them. A built-in meter with selectable dBA/dBC/OFF weighting. A separate SPL meter generally cost about $40. This may be something that can be easily built-in to the unit with minimal cost… however, we obviously have to have a mic… so, including the mic/line input with SPL meter built-in seems like a no-brainer. We would like large numbers in the display so we can read it from 20-25 feet away.

4. Several people would like to have individual test tones covering the entire frequency range from 10hz-400hz in 1hz increments… plus a sinewave sweep from 10hz-400hz. We would require a monitoring output (on the front under a flip cover) to connect to our computer program so that we can graph our response.

5. A video output for monitoring the display would be nice, but the cost factor may prohibit this.

Sonnie,

Looks real good. I got a few suggestions, hope it doesn't sound like I'm nit picking.

Do you think it would be better to group the items that the current BFD and FBQ does that we don't want changed at the beginning? You know, butter them up with the features that we like and don't want changed.

I would probably move the remote control to the second group. I would think that this would be an expensive addition, and definitely is not a must have for me.

The 12volt triggers are another thing I would probably move to the second list. Auto-on I think would be easy to implement cheaply. 12volt triggers would require a few more parts, that while at a few cents a peice, will add up and get very little usage if the Auto-on works well.

I think auto-on and 12volt triggers are a seperate issue (power savingings) from the turn-on thump. To eliminate the thump, I think they need a mute when it is turned on.

Some like the futuristic look of the FBQ over the BFD. :) Maybe it would be better to say clean front appearance. Hide everything behind a door? This would dovetail with the above light dimmer and usb port.

And minor nitpick, I probably would also avoid the words like "we need" and "keep" and replace them with "we would like". More or less to suck-up more. :)

Keep up the great work.

Those are some good suggestions.... I'll revamp it a little more. These are the kinds of things I need to know from others perspectives. Thanks!

Put me down for one simply for the ability to EQ down to 10Hz! Thanks for all your hard work Sonnie. I only bought the BFD after reading your website(I could not have done it after reading the BFD manual). It has truely helped many get their home theaters to sound their best! I now use the REW which is fantastic.

Okay... I've revamped the list as follow, as if I were sending it to Behringer.

I'm sure I've left something out or mis-worded some things. Please look over it carefully and help me out. THANKS! From someone that reads resumes, memos, and request all day long, I would suggest that you should:
1. Put the list in priority order. Most Important first.
2. Keep it succinct. The current list has too much justification in each request.

If this list gets to a real decisoin maker, you will be lucky if he spends 2 minutes reading it.

I have a 1124P, for me the the things that would make me spend $$ are:

1. LR Transform. This was mentioned several times, but is absent from the list.
2. FLAT response to 10hz. (The 1124P is down 3db at 20hz)
3. Filters that operate down to 10 hz
4. Shelving filters
5. USB Interface

Just my $.02 worth. It will be interesting to see if anything develops.

Thanks for the encouragement re REW, I'll take another look.
I took Sonnie's BFD Guide and converted it to PDF (with his permission). I printed a saddle stitched booklet and put it in the "reading room" for a while before tuning my BFD and..... well nuff said. :o :eek:

I'll prolly do the same with REW help file.

Thanks guys... I appreciate the nice words.

John... I'm definitely no writer. So, what you are basically saying is the list is too winded with all the justifications and should be more direct.... to the point.

I'll add the Linkwitz Transform... I just overlooked it (more like forgot it).

Nice list Sonnie, thanks for doing all this work.

Might I add that you may want to specify in what steps we would like the options to adjust time delay and phase? Like 1ft vs .25ft, etc.

I agree the "give us" and "Want" should be toned down to be more "would like" ;) Not a big deal though.

Thanks Jon... I'm changing to more of a bullet style list.

What would be the preferred increments for delay and phase?

Anyone have an idea of what the Linkwitz transform circuit would cost to implement? Would this be an essential or non-deal breaker? If it's extremely low cost it could be an essential but if it's costly to implement then I'd suggest we keep it as an option in the second list.

Wow... this is great. I've only recently been reading about the BFD and SMS-1 and was wondering when/if a more consumer-oriented version of something like the BFD would appear on the market. I would definitely order one of these BSE's for ~$150.

From a cost/feature perspective - personally, I'd pass on the remote control (assuming auto on/off) in favor of built in SPL meter/mic. (I have an RS meter, but would rather not monkey with correction tables, etc.) Also, I would prefer either USB or RS-232 as I'd have to buy an adapter to make use of MIDI. Finally, I would never notice if the XLR inputs/outputs were left off in favor of simple RCA connections.

Nice work, Sonnie. Thanks for your efforts.

It would probably cost too much to impliment into this but besides filters included, down to 10 hz...I'd love to see some kind of phase adjustment.

Okay... once again... here is a another format:


We are basing the BSE2496C (Behringer Sub EQ 24/96 Consumer) on similarities to several of your products such as the former DSP1124, the current FBQ2496, DEQ2496 and DCX2496, none of which fit our needs precisely. Following is a list of features in four categories, the first being the features we like as they are, in the DSP1124 and/or FBQ2496. Second are the essential features we would like, as well as several requested changes from the current BFD’s. Third are features/changes that we would like, but could live without if we just had too, although we believe they should have a minimal cost factor. Fourth are features available in other Behringer models or new features that we would like to be considered, but could be reserved for a second higher-end model if they will cause the unit to exceed our target price. We are not requesting a software program due to the free availability of the RoomEQ Wizard program. The target price we desire is $200-250 retail which will allow for a street price of approximately $150-200. It is imperative that we keep the cost to a minimum, as this is and always has been the driving force behind BFD sales in the home theater world. The majority of BFD 1124 owners were able to acquire there unit for $100-125.

Features on the DSP1124 and/or FBQ2496 we would like to keep:

~ Two independent channels.
~ A minimum of twelve parametric filters per channel.
~ Channel coupling and series looping.
~ Three-way IN/OUT bypass.
~ Input/output LED level indicators.
~ LED filter indicators for both channels.
~ Front panel display.
~ Retain normal required buttons and jog dial.
~ 24-bit/96 kHz A/D and D/A converter powered by a 32-bit DSP.
~ Internal switch-mode power supply (100 - 240 V~ / 50-60hz).
~ Low power consumption.
~ Adjustable input level (-10dBV / +4dBu) on rear.
~ Hard bypass relay.
~ Noise-free.
~ 107db dynamic range.
~ 0.007% THD.
~ High-quality components.
~ High-quality construction.
~ Balanced XLR inputs/outputs.
~ One year warranty.


Essential features and changes that we would like and should have a very minimal cost factor:

~ Soft power ON/OFF with selectable Auto-On detect via sub signal.
~ Eliminate turn-on thump and ground hum.
~ Double insulated chassis with a two prong plug or a ground lift switch if needed to eliminate hum.
~ Pure flat frequency response from 10hz to 400hz (FBQ2496 is -3db @ 20hz).
~ Filter adjustment capabilities from 10hz to 400hz.
~ Adjustable gain range from -24db to +16db for each filter.
~ Minimum of 4 to 6 memory presets.
~ Replace ¼ inch inputs/outputs with RCA inputs/outputs.
~ Simple shelf filter… (i.e. selectable linear boost between two selectable frequencies).
~ Selectable and/or variable 6db-48db/octave subsonic roll-off filter from 25hz to 10hz (10,13,16,19,22,25hz).
~ Time delay in msec.
~ Variable phase correction/adjustment from 0-180.
~ Front panel USB and/or RS-232 interface for MIDI port (place under small flip cover like on computers).
~ Dimmable front panel LED’s / lights with OFF option.
~ Soft blue and/or green LED’s on front panel vs. red.
~ Offer unit in black or silver… if not optional, offer only in black.
~ Revamp chassis for home theater consumer appearance vs. pro-audio style.
~ Allow mounting brackets to be optional (include unattached).
~ Enclose/fill gaps on sides if mounting brackets are removed.
~ Add rubber feet to allow placement on top of other equipment.
~ Remove graphic design from top of unit.

With the above features and changes this unit should sell like a hot potato at a steak house. We believe these are reasonable features for a street priced unit at $150-200.


Requested features/changes that won’t make or break the unit, but would be nice to have if minimal cost factor:

~ Anti-clipping mechanism with higher dynamic peak input before clipping.
~ Frequency readout in hertz instead of base + fine… (1hz increments w/ 0.1hz fine increments).
~ Bandwidth readout in octaves (1/3,1/6,1/24,1/1, etc.) or hertz (2hz,5hz,12hz,etc.) instead of 1/60, 10/60, 60/60, etc.
~ Front panel volume/gain to control output level to sub.
~ Linkwitz transform circuit.
~ Detachable power cord.


Next are the more elaborate features that you already have in some of your units, plus a few other added requested features, but we are uncertain as to the cost of these features and whether it would cause the new unit to exceed our target street price of $150-200. It may be that we could stand a street price of $250 (retail $299) with these extra features. We assume it would depend on your cost to integrate them into the new unit. Or if feasible, offer the above in one unit and add these features to another unit at a little higher cost.

Elaborate requested features with unknown cost factor for implementation (in order of relevance):

~ Individual crossover filters (Butterworth, Bessel, Linkwitz-Riley) per channel w/ selectable roll-off 6db-48db/octave.
~ Built-in RTA mic/line input with phantom power and GAIN control.
~ Built-in SPL meter with selectable dBA/dBC/OFF weighting.
~ Built-in test tones (sinewaves – individual 1hz increments and sweep from 5hz to 400hz).
~ Separate RCA mic monitoring and test tone output to allow for computer program monitoring.
~ Locate RTA mic/line inputs and RCA monitoring outputs on the front face plate under a small flip cover.
~ Video output for monitoring the display would be nice, but the cost factor may prohibit this.
~ Video display instead of LED’s… (dimmable and selectable OFF).
~ Small and simple 6 button wireless IR remote with discrete ON/OFF buttons and Preset 1,2,3,4 buttons.
~ Rear IR jack for remote control… to use with repeaters.
~ Add volume/gain control button to remote if feature is made available.
~ Add other control buttons to remote if cost feasible.

Consider them all sold!

We sincerely appreciate your genuine interest and consideration.

Sonnie Parker

A linkwitz can't be considered essential because only 50% of sub owners (owners of sealed subs) will get use out of it.

Good work, Sonnie- always nice to see a fellow Southerner delivering the goods. My $.02:

1) It's been said many times, but the need for a rumble filter with adjustable position and slope rolloff is key. I had to spend about $80 just for a halfway decent one with a fixed 12db rolloff adjustable from 10 to about 250Hz.

2) I think a 0-180 degree phase adjustment option would work wonders for sub to main integration. How do 5 degree increments sound to everyone?

John

A linkwitz can't be considered essential because only 50% of sub owners (owners of sealed subs) will get use out of it.

That's the main reason I was wondering the cost of implementation. If it's ultra cheap then it's not a biggy, but if it's expensive or even moderate, then we need to move it. I'm not all that familiar with the cost aspect of it. It has been mentioned a few times but I'd almost bet less than 50% of sub owner have sealed subs. Heck it seems more than 50% have SVS subs and they are ported for the most part....(not sure on cylinders but the boxes are).



Thanks John!

1) It's been said many times, but the need for a rumble filter with adjustable position and slope rolloff is key. I had to spend about $80 just for a halfway decent one with a fixed 12db rolloff adjustable from 10 to about 250Hz.
Do you like what we have suggested for a the subsonic filter? Would that work?

2) I think a 0-180 degree phase adjustment option would work wonders for sub to main integration. How do 5 degree increments sound to everyone?
Couldn't we just do variable from 0-180 on phase?

Also, what about msec on delay... but from what to what?

Anyone have an idea of what the Linkwitz transform circuit would cost to implement? Would this be an essential or non-deal breaker? If it's extremely low cost it could be an essential but if it's costly to implement then I'd suggest we keep it as an option in the second list.
Remember these filters are implemented in software. So the cost are software development cost. My quess is they probably already have a software implementation, so the cost would be minimal.

As we go over the features on the phone, I should be able to find out more about cost feasibility of each one, constraints, etc. This will tune the list even more for us.

I think the street price needs to be closer to $100 than $200. Think about it... if someone is spending $500 on a sub, adding another $200 is probably better spent buying a $700 sub. I would like to be able to EQ the $500 sub in my family room, as well as the $1200 sub in my HT. A price closer to $100 would allow me to EQ more rooms.
---------
I think XLR connectors are a nice-to-have if cost becomes a constraint... that's just me. It comes down to minimizing board/chip redesign and the cost of the connectors.

I think it would be hard to get to 100 bucks even with the minimal features. The new BFD (FBQ2496) is street priced at $150 now (Retail $190). We are asking for a little more as standard features.

I think it would be hard to get to 100 bucks even with the minimal features. The new BFD (FBQ2496) is street priced at $150 now (Retail $190). We are asking for a little more as standard features.

I understand. The list said street price of $150-200 and I am saying it needs to be close to $100 than $200. I thought the old BFD could be had for $125...

I think TRS connectors are adequate but XLR connectors would perform essentially the same function but with stronger connections. Most people don't have XLR output to their sub anyway so an adapter or conversion cable would be needed one way or another.

getting TWO RCA to TRS conversion adapters was part of the added cost to my unit. We all know these adapters cost more than they are worth.

Here is my suggestion: Inputs and outputs in RCA, TRS, and XLR... but I'm not sure how much this would cost. More people would find use out of the RCA jacks than XLR but I understand the audiophile market would be more likely to buy a device like this.

Other suggestions:

1. USB for sure, even if it costs $20-30 more. This is how much I paid for the turtle beach USB to MIDI cable. Of course the Room-EQ software would need to be re-written to accomodate these changes OR the Behringer would need a "driver disk" that comes with it.

2. A COVER for the front panel that can be snapped or screwed on so that the flashy lights and buttons can be covered (avoids tampering with settings).

3. A soft power-on so you don't get a big pop through the subwoofer when you use the power button.

4. An auto-power on when a signal is sensed, similar to a subwoofer. This would allow the unit to power off without additional effort from the user. I believe this is preferable to the previously suggested remote. Most people setup their EQ and then never want to touch it again. On the flip side, this is an EQ that I leave on all the time ... I'm not sure how much power it uses at idle.

5. How about simply bundling the Room EQ software with the product and paying a royalty to the author of the software? This would be a great way to support the author AND ensure software modifications to further advance the device and assure excellent compatibility.

6. As much as a pain in the ass the RS-SPL meter and calibrating it is... I think including the SPL meter or mic into the behringer would be pointless like others have said. Even better would be to buy your sound pressure level meter from companies that do this for a living and get their help in creating a proper calibration file for Room EQ Wizard.

A linkwitz can't be considered essential because only 50% of sub owners (owners of sealed subs) will get use out of it.
So from a design standpoint, you think it's a good decision to eliminate a feature that 50% of your customers want?? Especially when it's just a matter of including another DSP filter.

Besides, if a linkwitz was included, you could always plug that port, get rid of all that group delay and port noise, and find out what a real sub sound likes :) :)

Actually the old 1124p is floating around 100 bucks because it's discontinued. But yes, normal street price was approximately $125-$135 when it was first introduced. The FBQ2496 being a slightly better unit (albeit the lack of memory presets which we all want), is street priced a little higher. We are asking for quite a few extra features than either of those units have now. I really don't see it being $100-150.... BUT Behringer seems very fair with their pricing and I believe they will do it as least expensive as possible. If it can someway be done for $125-150 street, then they will, but we gotta be realistic and at least get them to look at it. Our ultimate goal is to try and keep it at below half the price of the SMS-1.

I think TRS connectors are adequate but XLR connectors would perform essentially the same function but with stronger connections. Most people don't have XLR output to their sub anyway so an adapter or conversion cable would be needed one way or another.
You know... I'm not really sure why we have to have XLR connections.



2. A COVER for the front panel that can be snapped or screwed on so that the flashy lights and buttons can be covered (avoids tampering with settings).
It would probably be less expensive to simply put a lock code in the unit... similar to a cell phone lock.



3. A soft power-on so you don't get a big pop through the subwoofer when you use the power button.
We got this as priority #1.



4. An auto-power on when a signal is sensed, similar to a subwoofer.
On the list.



I'm not sure how much power it uses at idle.
Extremely low power consumption... about 10w.



5. How about simply bundling the Room EQ software with the product and paying a royalty to the author of the software? This would be a great way to support the author AND ensure software modifications to further advance the device and assure excellent compatibility.
This could be done but would be between John Mulcahy and Behringer. Not sure why you'd want to pay for something that he enjoys sharing freely.



6. As much as a pain in the rump the RS-SPL meter and calibrating it is... I think including the SPL meter or mic into the behringer would be pointless like others have said. Even better would be to buy your sound pressure level meter from companies that do this for a living and get their help in creating a proper calibration file for Room EQ Wizard.
The SPL would only be included if it is something that is very inexpensive. They already have it in other units and it would save some folks 40 bucks... kinda like saving you 20-30 bucks on your USB to MIDI cable, except we may save you more. The SPL meter is something we have to buy, one way or another. USB to MIDI or MIDI cable alone is not something we have to have. I measure with REW, but I input my filters manually as do several others I know. It makes more sense to include a feature that we MUST have than a feature that we can get by with as is, being the MIDI port as is. We understand a lot of people already own an SPL meter, but a lot of people already own a MIDI cable of some sort too. HOWEVER, as you can see (read), we have the USB interface as a much higher priority over the built-in SPL.


.......



So from a design standpoint, you think it's a good decision to eliminate a feature that 50% of your customers want?? Especially when it's just a matter of including another DSP filter.
I'd tend to lean towards 75% of people owning SVS ported subs around here... another 10-15% owning another type of ported/vented sub... that only leaves about 10-15% for sealed. Of course I have no way of knowing the exact numbers.

After the initial onslaught of new unit purchases, the majority of sales will most likely be new sub owners or sub owners that are buying for the first time. All of the sudden the market shifts to a different buyer. Those buyers are gonna need an SPL meter, possibly a mic and mic amp, maybe a crossover... but we have that on the bottom of the priority list. The LT is higher up the list, so you should be fairly happy. Those features in the third list are features we'd like to see, but we just have to make sure they are cost feasible.



Besides, if a linkwitz was included, you could always plug that port, get rid of all that group delay and port noise, and find out what a real sub sound likes
lol... come on down to this ole hillbilly's home and listen to these two SVS PB12-Plus/2's in a 1800 cubic foot solid sealed room. Bring your sealed sub with the LT circuit. Let's just find out what's real and what ain't. When ya comin'??? :cool:

You know... I'm not really sure why we have to have XLR connections.


I go XLR between the BFD and my pro-amp. I would love to go XLR between the receiver and the BFD, but I'm not there yet. Since it is already a feature, I would prefer not to get rid of it.

Ah... I forgot about those folks who don't have powered subs. Good point. I wasn't gonna change it anyway because too many folks around and about have asked to keep it.

"if someone is spending $500 on a sub, adding another $200 is probably better spent buying a $700 sub. "

You must have a lot better room than most people.

"This could be done but would be between John Mulcahy and Behringer. Not sure why you'd want to pay for something that he enjoys sharing freely."

I'm probably in the minority, but I'd pay another $75 to avoid the pain of getting REW up and running.

A simplified version that just let's someone plug in a laptop and go would be a big step toward the user friendliness of the SMS-1 and greatly increase the market.

Perhaps that could be a step-up market, somewhere between what's being discussed now and the SMS-1, for people with more money and less time and ambition than the DIYer.

Com'on now Noah... REW is a pain??? Open up the HELP files and take it step by step. John does everything but hold your hand... and there's even pictures with the words. Believe me, it's really easy if you'll take the time to read the HELP files which are written well. It scared me to death when I first looked and it... I was intimidated....UNTIL I read the HELP files and realized it was much easier than I had originally thought. Just about everyone who has had doubts that finally took the time to relax and take it slow has now found out how simple it really is.

As far as the "step-up market"... let's say for $350-400 you get all of the above plus integrated upgradeable software. Now you've surpassed the SMS-1 and for less money. I have no doubts that Behringer could build a similar product to the SMS-1 and make it less expensive but with slightly more and better features.

... I'd pay another $75 to avoid the pain of getting REW up and running.Exactly.

No slight on John M. and the incredible job he did with REW, but many people would rather not go through using it, but rather just do FR graphs manually. These people too need and can make great use of a simplified multi band PEQ.

Tim

"if someone is spending $500 on a sub, adding another $200 is probably better spent buying a $700 sub. "

You must have a lot better room than most people.

"This could be done but would be between John Mulcahy and Behringer. Not sure why you'd want to pay for something that he enjoys sharing freely."

I'm probably in the minority, but I'd pay another $75 to avoid the pain of getting REW up and running.

A simplified version that just let's someone plug in a laptop and go would be a big step toward the user friendliness of the SMS-1 and greatly increase the market.

Perhaps that could be a step-up market, somewhere between what's being discussed now and the SMS-1, for people with more money and less time and ambition than the DIYer.

I add a second vote to everything you said. An emphatic vote.

Sonnie - as for the time delay and phase, I know my HK has settings in .20ft increments which is nice, so something along those lines would be good. I have no idea what we would need for phase since I haven't gotten my unit up and running :confused:

Exactly.

No slight on John M. and the incredible job he did with REW, but many people would rather not go through using it, but rather just do FR graphs manually. These people too need and can make great use of a simplified multi band PEQ.
If you are going to do graphs manually then you don't need REW and you don't need to pay 75 more dollars to avoid using it. Just do it manually and save the $75.

Define "many".... just lookin' through all the forums it seems like "many" might be more appropriate for those that are using it.

Think about it... right now there are a host of folks with the BFD that have done manual measurements for a long time. Those that have switched over to REW are for the most part elated with it's ease of use. You don't have to use it with the new unit if you don't want to, but I suggest most will.

Let's keep things inexpensive on the primary unit and if we can get some software implentation on the secondary unit, sobeit, but I'd rather Behringer not do it cause they haven't done too well with software thus far... at least not with ease of use.




Johnny... I'm thinking just the normal 0-180° would suffice. Probably and option for .1ft or 1msec on the delay.

OK, I got confused here.... :confused: As long as this new product can be set up without requiring the use of REW, then that's great.

My bad.


Tim

Well, to use REW, you need a good sound card ($50) which most laptops don't already have. That's why I haven't been able to use it succesffuly. If it was automated to the level of the SMS, it would definitely be worth an extra $75 (really only a $25 difference), but I don't see that happening.

Yep, that's a drawback for REW.

Will this unit need to do an ADC/DAC to the sub signal like the 1124? Research some good ADC/DAC's - those in the 1124 do not work well (or at all at times) with low input level. Not saying Burr-Brown or anything but there must be a cost effective alternative to what's in the 1124...

I'm not sure what they are using in the FBQ2496 but they use AKM in the DCX2496 and DEQ2496.

Do you like what we have suggested for a the subsonic filter? Would that work?

Yeah, that looks perfectly fine.

Couldn't we just do variable from 0-180 on phase?

Also, what about msec on delay... but from what to what?

Yep- actually, I think variable would be better. As far as the delay: If I'm not mistaken, 1ms = about 1 foot. So, a 0-30 or 40 ms range should cover all but the most insanely huge HT's.

John

"if someone is spending $500 on a sub, adding another $200 is probably better spent buying a $700 sub. "

You must have a lot better room than most people.

Not at all... Spending 40% more on a $500 sub will get you a lot more sub. It can be as simple as a jump from a 10" to a 12" sub, or a basic 12" sub to a higher performing model.

I know I asked this before but any wild gues on the ETA of this unit? I'm in the market for a SMS but I'm willing to wait but it really depends on how long.

Monkey_Man... I hope to know something on this next week.

Sorry... dupe post... appeared to be tech problems and the screen said try refreshing.

"Not at all... Spending 40% more on a $500 sub will get you a lot more sub. "

The point is that a $5000 sub will sound like crap in a room with a room mode giving 10 dB peak at 50 Hz.

"Not at all... Spending 40% more on a $500 sub will get you a lot more sub. "

The point is that a $5000 sub will sound like crap in a room with a room mode giving 10 dB peak at 50 Hz.

No doubt, and I am not arguing that with you.

My assumption, based on many of the posts in the forum is most people are shooting for one sub, and they are stretching themselves to get "the best" one they can afford. That's why we get so many "which is best" posts here, as people go for the best bang-for-the-buck.

I think the sweet spot for pricing of the BFD replacment is below $150, so people with internet subs below $1000 can squeeze this into their budgets. I also think that more of these would be afforded by people who bought $500 subs if it stayed as close to $100 as possible.

"No doubt, and I am not arguing that with you."

But I'm arguing with you :)

I'm saying it likely (depends on the room) makes more sense to spend $200 on EQ than a better sub.

Not to say that it wouldn't be hard convincing the typical buyer of that.

Sonnie, I'm going to both retract my want for a high pass filter and ask that the option be available to not have to use one at all.

Well... if a crossover is built in to the unit, it will most likely be a low and high pass, but would be defeatable. i.e., HI BYPASS/OFF and LOW BYPASS/OFF with selectable frequencies for each.

Final proposal sent to Behringer today:

http://bfdguide.ws/bse2496

AWESOME!! Can't wait to see what their response is.

"No doubt, and I am not arguing that with you."

But I'm arguing with you :)

...okay, that was kind of funny...

...but I rest my case...

It is in the hands of the development team committee and we are at their mercy. At this stage, I cannot get anyone to tell me a time frame and I don't want to bug them to death. I do not believe it would hurt to let them know you are interested if you would like to send them an email through the Behringer site... www.behringer.com

Hi There,

Damn....This thread poped up and is basicaly closed within a few days...Though it does look fairly well thought out if i do say so myself.

A switchable power supply from 120/240 is about all i'd add...oh and why stop at 10Hz, why not take it lower, does it take processing power to increase the range ??? Just the lower you go the more bass freaks you net !

I'm a BFD user with midi cable and an ECM8000 using another of thier gizzmo's as a pre-amp, a Shark dsp 110. They do great kit and for not much money...if anything the hardest thing is turning all the wiz-bangs off !

Cya,
Lee (adding a vote if nowt else)

Cool... here's a response from Behringer that a forum member got:

Response (Joel K.) 16/02/2006 01.44 PM
Dear XXXX XXX,

It's great to read such support!! I have fielded 5 of these wonderful mails today. I will be passing all of these on to the folks who make the decisions.

Thank you again

Best regards,

Your BEHRINGER Customer Support Team

It appears they appreciate the feedback.

I received two replies (one from the U.S. site and one from the German site) saying basically the same thing - that they were surprised at the response and that the suggested product fits with their companies overall philosophy. Each of my emails was forwarded to the real decision-makers. Let us hope :D
JP

I emailed both and here is what I got:

Thanks for contacting us Steve. You are not the first to contact us in regards to this idea. This suggestion has already been forwarded to R&D. Unfortunately we don't have any information or persuasion on whether or not this product will become reality. There is no need to email in regards to this same subject again because this system is used only for tech support. The most updated information will always be on our website. http://www.behringer.com/

They said they have no persuasion, so perhaps I am sending these emails to the wrong place?

I don't imagine those associates that are fielding the feedback would have much influence on whether it gets developed or not. About the only thing they can do is forward the feedback to the appropriate decision makers. Some may forward it and some may not, who knows, other than themselves.

Steve, did you choose "General" for your subject heading? Of course I don't know that it has anything to do with who gets what. I've seen several different replies already and they each had different representative names on them. I've questions features on several of their products over the past few weeks just to try and get a better understanding of those features and haven't gotten the same person twice. It was obvious that some knew more about the products and features than others. It is also obvious from several of the replies that the feedback system is not strictly used for tech support either. You might try again... maybe you'll get someone different this time that will be willing to forward your support of the new proposed unit to the right people.


Do you guys think we could do a Poll here? I'd like to get permission to poll the members to see who would want what. We could include estimated street pricing. Maybe four options... Option 1: Unit with minimal essential features... Option 2: Unit in option 1 bundled with a ECM8000 Mic and 20' Mic Cable... Option 3: Unit includes addtional elaborate features.... Option 4: Unit in option 3 bundled with Mic/Cable...

I don't think you would need permission. Since the mods haven't intervened already, you're prolly okay. :cool:

I wouldnt touch behringer with your 10 foot pole.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-06-13A1.pdf

As profitable as Behinger has been in the USA, I suspect they will pay the fine, get fully in compliance, and continue on with business as usual.

I notice that several of those products listed have been discontinued, even though some had been tested, just not timely. I also notice some of their more recent products not listed. It may be that they've already got their compliance procedures in line. No doubt they'll file a response.

Hopefully it won't effect us and what we are doing.

Sheesh, complying with relevant regulations is a pretty big deal and I think whoever let this slip should be fired. They have to test anyway, it's not as if by delaying testing they could possibly get away with something. Delaying in this case doesn't accomplish jack squat other than making FCC angry.

Nice way to waste a million dollars.

Yup... and I'd almost bet all of their equipment would test fine as all of it tested thus far has. Maybe they just didn't realize how strict the FCC is and didn't think the FCC would really do anything. It somewhat puzzles me. Surely testing can't cost that much... obviously not a million bucks... until now that is.

Well, just maybe this will cause them to really need to broaden to the consumer market more and start creating newer products to make up for the loss, although it probably won't hurt them that bad... a million smacks is still a million smacks.

I'm not about to read a 13 page pdf at this hour. How 'bout a summary by breakfast time. Good night all! :cool:

Jeff... in a nutshell... Behringer is required to have all its models of audio products tested and verified as compliant with the applicable technical equipment standards (FCC approved) before these products are imported and marketed in the United States. After two warnings and failing to fully comply, they have been issued a fine of one million dollars. Although they have complied with several products, they didn't do it fast enough... and they still haven't complied 100%. For example, the BFD 1124 has been here in the USA since 2000. They just had it tested in February 2005... this is one of the units they are being fined for, athough it has been discontinued.

I wouldnt touch behringer with your 10 foot pole.Don't fall off your high horse. You might want to look at ALL the American companies committing far worse offenses....

Start with good old Union Carbide (http://www.bhopal.org/whathappened.html)

Don't fall off your high horse. You might want to look at ALL the American companies committing far worse offenses....

Start with good old Union Carbide (http://www.bhopal.org/whathappened.html)


My Hi horse has to do with behringer and there audio units, if what happened in bhopal was a speaker factory or some such your post would make more sense. As far as audio goes which I think this thread is about behringer has had issues with copyright as well. that is why I wouldn't touch them with your even longer 20 ft pole.

Now just how do you know that his pole is longer than mine... http://www.nextlevelav.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_blink.gif

Bump.

Any update on the possibility of this turning into an actual product?

Scott

No word yet. Behringer is known to take their time with these things. There is a lot they have to do to make a decision. I plan on giving them at least 60 days from the submission date before I attempt to get an update from them... which will be around April 15. I suspect we are looking at possibly 8-10 months out though, just from what I've been told by various others.

Folks can still help by sending them an email and/or calling them.

I also think this would be a great product.

Let's hope they take it up.

As for features, I think XLR outputs for pro-amps is a requirement.

Just thought I'd give my reply from Behringer if for no other reason to bump this up again..

Thank you for writing, JCD. The details regarding products to be develeped and released are generally not available until the information is posted on behringer's website. However, your suggestion seems a good one - and I'd be glad to pass this on to the appropriate personnel in our R&D department for consideration. If it turns out that there is sufficient demand for a particular product or feature - and the implementation of this product or feature proves to be feasible - it's possible that your suggestions may be incorporated into future production runs or software revisions.

We hope that we have been able to help you with this information.

Best regards,

Your BEHRINGER Customer Support Team

Well that's certainly a new response I've not seen... interesting. At least they are passing it along.

Here's another I've seen from another forum member:

Response (Joel K.) 16/02/2006 01.44 PM
Dear XXXX XXX,

It's great to read such support!! I have fielded 5 of these wonderful mails today. I will be passing all of these on to the folks who make the decisions.

Thank you again

Best regards,

Your BEHRINGER Customer Support Team

Here's the one I've seen mostly on the more recent emails sent to them...

Thanks for contacting us Brian. You are not the first to contact us in regards to this idea. This suggestion has already been forwarded to R&D. Unfortunately we don't have any information or persuasion on whether or not this product will become reality. This department is used only for tech support. The most updated information regarding new products will always be on our website.

I suppose it all depends on how we word what we send. I think we need to be sure to ask them to at least forward our interest in the product to R&D, even though we understand that technical support has no influence on their decision... I would certainly think interested customers would have an influence. It's as if the representative fielding the email thinks we want them to try and get the R&D department to approve it, but we are not... we are simply asking them to forward the fact that we are interested.

After re-reading it, it really looks like a stock response. The "demand for a particular product or feature" part made me think it's just a canned response.

But hey, if they did pass it on, that'd be another request for the new unit.

I hate waiting though.. I'm going to need something by summer time.

JCD

You can pick up a BFD 1124p for about 90 bucks. If they do build a new unit and you decide you want one then you should be able to get most of your money back. There will always be those who don't want to spend the money for a new one and would probably pay 65-75 bucks for a used BFD.

~ Time delay from 0 to 30msec or 1 foot increments w/ 0.1 foot fine up to 30 feet.
~ Variable phase correction/adjustment from 0-180.


Isn't time delay essentially the same thing as affecting phase? Variable phase correction would SEAL the deal. There is a dearth of this feature on any sub below $2,000. Very depressing! :( Whereas you can control time delay on many processors/receivers on their sub out, you're helpless when you have to daisy chain multiple subs. Use of multiple subs in select locations to smoothen bass over a large listening area is an increasingly hot trend. But manufacturers don't seem to realize. It should be easy to implement in the digital domain (are you listening, Axiom?). I'd be willing to pay more than $150 for just this feature.

Tumara Baap

~ Ability to slave multiple units together.


SMS-1 does that by linking two units with an additional cable (RS-232?). This would be a pain for someone who has their theater pre-wired. I wonder whether it'll be easier (and cheaper too) to have a full range master XLR/RCA Out that would route the original unaltered signal onto a second BFD.

Any updates?

Sonnie has said that he is being ignored by Behringer. This was posted on 8/22 at the HT Shack.

Thats too bad after all the work he put into getting this rolling. I guess I'll just enjoy my SMS. I'll be glad just to have that.

It may come through, but I wouldn't bet on it.

BTT: We really need something other than the SMS. Let's keep on emailing.

I don't think Behringer is going to ever come through on this. I've dug deep and spoken with several people at Behringer. If they did decide to build something like this, they will not discuss it with anyone... it would be a secret so to speak, until its release. Therefore I'm not sure how they could ever have discussions on what we want. They are quite the hardheaded and stubborn bunch and have given no credit to the home theater market.

There is another guy who seems to have the potential to build something similar to what we are looking for... Bass Management System Development (http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfd-rew-forum/3459-bass-management-system-development.html) ... but I'm not sure anything will ever become of it. It is however, the closest thing to what we all are looking for that I've seen discussed anywhere.

There is another guy who seems to have the potential to build something similar to what we are looking for... Bass Management System Development (http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfd-rew-forum/3459-bass-management-system-development.html) ... but I'm not sure anything will ever become of it. It is however, the closest thing to what we all are looking for that I've seen discussed anywhere.

I have been following the redesign thread for a long time, too bad you can't get anywhere with behringer on a new development of this...
Unfortunately I have a feeling that bvwj will not be able to get this going, as he is most definately tethered to the firewire idea, not that its bad, but 90% of the people out there have more usb implementation then firewire... I have no problem with firewire at all, and it would work fine for me...

:( :mad: