The Chief RPA-U Universal Ceiling Mount does work fine with this unit. I have spec'd it out in all my jobs for the 333/777 and I haven't heard one issue. As a matter of fact when you go to their website (http://www.chiefmfg.com/manufacturer_search/?&dropdown=manufacturer_device&manufacturer_id=19110&type_id=projectors&manufacturer_device_id=146985) that's the mount they recommend for the 777.

Scott

The 10 IRE grey scale adjustment in the Lumagen is the best :)
It is indeed. My ISF guru told me that he loves dealing with Lumagen scalers--they make his job so much easier. :cool:

Scott-

All you have to do now to complete your system is add an HD-DVD player. I think you'll find a greater improvment than the Lumagen with standard DVD can give you. You've gone to all this trouble...take that last $500 step.

TA
Sorry, but no HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player will cross the threshold of the Scooterplex until this insane format war is over (or until dual format players become ubiquitous enough that I won't worry about investing in one format vs. another). As far as I'm concerned there is a pox on the houses of Toshiba and Sony---my Denon 2910/Lumagen/333 combo works just fine for the interim, thankyouverymuch.

p.s. I've gotten a few inquiries about the filter holder for the 333. InFocus still hasn't updated their website to show this part, so you have to do it the old-fashioned way: Call InFocus at 800-660-0024 and ask to be connected to Customer Service. There is no part number; ask for the filter holder for the ScreenPlay 777. The filter holder is $99, and ground shipping from Kentucky to Northern Virginia (where I live) cost me $5.

The ND filter holder is nothing but a black metal ring with 3M adhesive on the flat backside (you stick this end on your projector lens housing) and a threaded front end (where you screw in a 72mm filter). So basically once you've attached the ND filter holder to the lens, it's on there for good.

As for the neutral density (ND) filters themselves, any glass 72mm threaded filter will do (don't use plastic ND filters... the heat of the light beam will melt them! :eek: ). I'm using ND 0.6 and ND 0.3 filters from Tiffen for my 333; you can buy them here (http://www.2filter.com/faq/tiffen/tiffenndfilters.html).

I have a customer who neds to swap out a lens. Does anyone have the procedure for doing so. Does the over have to come off first. Is everything philip head screws. If someone can post this info we are grateful:) Thank you.

TotAtle,

I went with the short throw lens as I'm hoping to do a 140" to 165" 16:9 and I'm thinking of mounting it around 18' back as that is where my ceiling power plug is been installed.

Anyone have this hooked up to a gaming console? Thoughts and impressions? I've very excited to try my 360 on this unit.

Cheers

We have a 360 hooked up to ours. It's really great. With the buttkickers (4 in each riser) and the picture the 333 displays, it's an awesome experience. Very immersive.
It's almost too good. My teenage son and his buddies are in there all the time, I'm lucky if I can ever get the HT to myself. Heck, we already have over 500 hours on our 333 (only had it a little while).

I have a customer who neds to swap out a lens. Does anyone have the procedure for doing so. Does the over have to come off first. Is everything philip head screws. If someone can post this info we are grateful:) Thank you.Here you go, with pictures:

http://www.infocus.com/service/sp777/downloads/lens%20installation%20instructions.pdf

Which lens is he parting with? I'd still like to have one of the longer ones I have a stock and a 1.8-2.25 to trade.

Here you go, with pictures:

http://www.infocus.com/service/sp777/downloads/lens%20installation%20instructions.pdf

Which lens is he parting with? I'd still like to have one of the longer ones I have a stock and a 1.8-2.25 to trade.



Better then perfect, thank you :)

Looks as though you could leave that front faceplate off and get a closer fit with a Prismasonic lens. I wonder if my Sim2 C3X Lite would work that way...hmmm.

Are any of you 333 owners seeing any convergeance issues? I'm not asking for a detailed evaluation - just whether or not its a concern from your viewing position.

Are any of you 333 owners seeing any convergeance issues? I'm not asking for a detailed evaluation - just whether or not its a concern from your viewing position.

Nothing here.....everything looks spot on, and if it's not, it's nothing anyone could see.

p.s. I've gotten a few inquiries about the filter holder for the 333. InFocus still hasn't updated their website to show this part, so you have to do it the old-fashioned way: Call InFocus at 800-660-0024 and ask to be connected to Customer Service. There is no part number; ask for the filter holder for the ScreenPlay 777. The filter holder is $99, and ground shipping from Kentucky to Northern Virginia (where I live) cost me $5.

The ND filter holder is nothing but a black metal ring with 3M adhesive on the flat backside (you stick this end on your projector lens housing) and a threaded front end (where you screw in a 72mm filter). So basically once you've attached the ND filter holder to the lens, it's on there for good.

As for the neutral density (ND) filters themselves, any glass 72mm threaded filter will do (don't use plastic ND filters... the heat of the light beam will melt them! :eek: ). I'm using ND 0.6 and ND 0.3 filters from Tiffen for my 333; you can buy them here (http://www.2filter.com/faq/tiffen/tiffenndfilters.html).

Scott,

I REALLY need to get down there and see that projector of yours:rolleyes: I am salivating to see a 333/777 in a real HT environment and not just a show demo.

Can I PLEASE bring my HD-DVD with me...just for a test???

Dave,

Coming from Pa to Va, you will pass thru the Baltimore area (sort of). You could stop by here and have a look at my C3X Lite CH setup also. Then you could do a comparo write-up. Of course, I have about 1/3 the lumens Scott does!

Sounds like a plan to me:D I have a Ruby right now, maybe we can do a side-by-side comparison of all 3 units?

Don't recall how big the Ruby is, but it would probably fit on a stand of some sort just beneath my C3X Lite. Then it would be a simple matter of sending the signal via my VP30 as a switcher and just change the HDMI cable from one to the other, or put one on HDMI and one on component at the same time and tweak it up! And bring that HD-DVD, I want to see how my VP30 scales it down to 720p. :D :D

Of course, remember my screen is a 127" wide (138" diag) CH setup of low gain, which will hamper the Ruby just a bit. At 1.78 though it's only 110" diag. Sounds fair to me.

110" diagonal 16x9 is exactly what I use, so that should be OK. It would be nice if we can get all three of us to do a shootout between the C3X Lite, Kodak 333 and VPL-VW100 Ruby:)

I've done a side by side comparison of the panasonic 900 and the 333 this weekend.

Set up is 120" 4:3 aspect - 1.5 Gain Da-Lite screen - Image projected is around 108" in 16:9 format.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h248/Calvin2006/HT%20Main%20-%20Basement/900and333setupforcomparison.jpg

I didn't get my mount for the 333 shipped with the unit so I built a quick wall mount to do some comparisons.

The 333 was not calibrated the 900 is just set up by myself using AVIA and my camera isn't the best (the blurring in any images are me or the camera not the PJ)

Infocus 333

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h248/Calvin2006/HT%20Main%20-%20Basement/InfocusinfoScreen.jpg

Panasonic 900

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h248/Calvin2006/HT%20Main%20-%20Basement/900InfoScreen.jpg

In the photos I've posted the xbox 360 game Chrome hounds. I was looking for a good 720P source and used component cables for both PJ to the 360. I have both the PJ at the same distance from the screen as well in these photos.

My original plan of leaving the 333 on the wall mount didn't work as it is around 18' back and with the short throw lens I can't shrink the image enough to get it on the screen. To solve this I moved the 333 directly underneath the ceiling mounted 900 to around a 15' throw for the 108" image.

I'm not back home to tweak or play with these again until August 11th but I'll answer any questions people may have to the best of my ability.

Cheers

Very nice:) I have an AE900 here also for the next few weeks, so maybe we can add that to the mix, just as a budget 720 LCD machine compared to the higher end 3 chip 720 DLPs and a 1080P SXRD of course, to see what all that extra cash gets you.

That 333, just by your pix anyway, certainly shows it's much brighter and sharper.

Hey gang, looking at Calvin's pictures of the projectors I'm baffled; I thought the 333 was twice the size of the 900, but here the physical dimensions of the 900 are larger.

It is the same movie trick used to make Tom Cruise appear taller than Nicole Kidman....

Hint - look at the mount locations - not the projectors.

It is the same movie trick used to make Tom Cruise appear taller than Nicole Kidman....

Hint - look at the mount locations - not the projectors.

Correct in that photo the 900 is about 3 feet closer then the 333.
Make no mistake the 333 is a giant machine.

In this photo I'm pulling it out of the box - I'm 5' 10" 180 lbs for perspective.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h248/Calvin2006/HT%20Main%20-%20Basement/CalvinInspectshisnewtoy.jpg

I have a ton of photos and don't want to post them all but if people have specific questions or requests I can likely get a photo up pertaining to it.

On August 11th I'll be returning home with a much better camera and hopefully mounting the 333 beside the 900 so I can do a more exacting comparison as well.

Cheers

It is the same movie trick used to make Tom Cruise appear taller than Nicole Kidman....

Hint - look at the mount locations - not the projectors.

First Kras, are you suggesting Tom Cruise isn't 6'2" in real life? If so, I think you're going to crush my dreams of what an action hero is supposed to look like! :D

I looked twice and they looked right on top of one another but I guess the Panny is on the ceiling closer and the IF on the back wall -- DOH! :o

Kevin
I sent you a pm. Give me a call Thanx
Michael Goldman

Just completed my order with Jason to join the Infocus 333 owners club. Since this will be my first projector, I'm really looking forward to the new setup.

Initially starting off with the following items:

Infocus 333 w/ long throw lens, Dalite 119" HCMW screen, 35ft HDMI cable (Monoprice), HDMI to M1 adapter, and Chief RPA-U ceiling mount.

I'll be connecting to Directv's H20 receiver, which will be connected to a 5 LNB dish.

A possible addition to the above listed items would be an ND filter or two, and an extension cord for the projector.

Hope setting everything up isn't too complicated. Seems a little daunting, but I'm sure I'll figure everything out. Looking forward to receiving all the equipment early next week.

I hope you didn't take the one I might be getting;)???

Any advantages of hooking up through the DVI connection over the component cables? I'm just wondering as I'll need to order a 35' or 40' DVI cable and a HDMI convertor to use this PJ with my Sherwood Newcastle HSB-600.
Should I go this route for HD-DVD and my gaming consoles or will it matter?
Your thoughts please.

Thanks

Are any of you 333 owners seeing any convergeance issues? I'm not asking for a detailed evaluation - just whether or not its a concern from your viewing position.
Nope. My eyes and my ISF tech tell me that the picture is nearly perfect in that regard.

Scott,

I REALLY need to get down there and see that projector of yours:rolleyes: I am salivating to see a 333/777 in a real HT environment and not just a show demo.

Can I PLEASE bring my HD-DVD with me...just for a test???
Only if you bring the beer, too. :cool:

Any advantages of hooking up through the DVI connection over the component cables? I'm just wondering as I'll need to order a 35' or 40' DVI cable and a HDMI convertor to use this PJ with my Sherwood Newcastle HSB-600.
Should I go this route for HD-DVD and my gaming consoles or will it matter?
Your thoughts please.

Thanks
Well for starters, you won't have to worry about digital-to-analog noise when you go the DVI route. But on a more practical note, using the digital connector means only having to snake one cable instead of three to your projector. Also, if the studios ever decide to turn on copy protection on HD-DVD discs, you'll have to use the digital connector... HDCP doesn't work with component cables.

Any advantages of hooking up through the DVI connection over the component cables? I'm just wondering as I'll need to order a 35' or 40' DVI cable and a HDMI convertor to use this PJ with my Sherwood Newcastle HSB-600.
Should I go this route for HD-DVD and my gaming consoles or will it matter?
Your thoughts please.
You want to minimize the A/D conversions. If you are sourcinging HDMI, you'll be better off via DVI. IMO. If you are already going out via Component, you might as well go to the PJ via component. Of course both will give you the most flexibility. I use an external scaler that transcodes all my inputs to DVI to the PJ. But my most critical input is SD DVD which is SDI so I don't have the A/D conversions. My HD STB is component which the scaler (Lumagen) transcodes to digital RGB over DVI where the PJ dosen't process it further AFAIK. I don't have a HD-disc yet, but to get a HD signal out of one of them I believe you must use HDMI due to the HDCP protection. (man, this hobby has as many acronyms as a phone company :))

Any advantages of hooking up through the DVI connection over the component cables? I'm just wondering as I'll need to order a 35' or 40' DVI cable and a HDMI convertor to use this PJ with my Sherwood Newcastle HSB-600.
Should I go this route for HD-DVD and my gaming consoles or will it matter?
Your thoughts please.
Component will always be a little softer, so I would recommend HDMI (or DVI).

mbunner, congrats!

Anyone have the HSB-600 for HDMI switching? Mine is caught in the horror that is Fed Ex freight delivery somewhere in Ohio so I'm not sure how well it work? I've purchased a 50' HDMI cable I was using with the 900 and it worked well.
I've recently put in an order with monoprice to buy a HDMI to DVI adapter to use the same cable with the HSB-600 to the IF 333. I'm hoping this will eliminate the need for any other cables as I'll be able to run them through the HSB-600 to the PJ.
Should I expect any issues with this set up other then perhaps the HDMI won't be a snug fit with the DVI adapter?
Thanks

Component will always be a little softer, so I would recommend HDMI (or DVI).

mbunner, congrats!

I definitely wouldn't say always, and DVI/HDMI can open a whole new can of worms, but generally speaking I agree with the others that usually avoiding D-A and A-D conversions results in a better picture overall.

Do any of you 333 owners have a picture of your ceiling mounted pj? I keep telling my wife how lovely it would be hanging from our 8 ft ceiling but she's not convinced.

Do any of you 333 owners have a picture of your ceiling mounted pj? I keep telling my wife how lovely it would be hanging from our 8 ft ceiling but she's not convinced.

I will have soon. I've started a new thread in the General Home Theater & Media/Game Rooms construction forum so look for photos up there soon.

Cheers

Any 333 owners here measured the bulbs for Lumens over the 1st few hundred hours ?
Anyone on their second bulb yet?
I'm just curious as to the drop off of the brightness on these units. I know the bulbs are rated for 1500 hours but realistically how many hours should I expect at 50% lumens or brighter?

Cheers

I haven't measured. We have about 450 hours on our bulb, you can probably add another 15 hours by Monday. The kids play video games a good portion of the day/night (schools still out) and we watch movies at night. I haven't noticed any major light drop off so far, but then again, it happens so gradually that I'm sure I won't. For what it's worth, the 333 is so bright, even on our 10ft wide screen, that I seriously doubt that it's drop in lumens will be a major issue. So if it loses 50% I'm down to 1650 lumens, maybe at that point I can finally turn the brightness up :)

Do any of you 333 owners have a picture of your ceiling mounted pj? I keep telling my wife how lovely it would be hanging from our 8 ft ceiling but she's not convinced.
I'm afraid I don't have any closeups of the projector (I still haven't gotten around to putting a nice finished "frame" around the saw marks where we sawed out the ceiling drywall to attach the 3/4" birch plywood mounting plate directly to the ceiling joists) but here (http://www.scottgammans.net/weblog/2006/04/welcome_to_the_scooterplex_ii.html) are some pictures of my theater, which has an eight foot ceiling.

Oh and p.s., no I haven't measured the light output either. All I can say is that the original lamp has been running for 318 hours as of last night, and I haven't noticed any need to change from the ND 0.6 filter currently on the lens to a 0.3. :cool:

Nice theater.

Nice theater.

Ditto:)

Thanks... for the amount of money I spent on the damn thing it had BETTER get some kudos! :lol:

I hear ya Scott....now go grab yourself one of those HD-DVDs:D!!!

If you can somehow cause the Blu-Ray camp to definitively crash and burn, I will be the first one in line for an HD-DVD player at the nearest Best Buy the day after. :cool:

If you can somehow cause the Blu-Ray camp to definitively crash and burn, I will be the first one in line for an HD-DVD player at the nearest Best Buy the day after. :cool:They seem to be getting off toa firey start on their own.

It doesn't matter who wins. In 10 years we have the highdef stuff on demand over IP. These discs are just an interim solution. By waiting for the "war" to end you are just wasting your time. Ok so you save $500 and shelf space, but that's hardly an issue.

They seem to be getting off toa firey start on their own.

:D :D Yeah, but they've still got lots of gasoline to pour on it to put it out....oh wait, that's a Sony solution to a problem. Never mind.

Anyone using a scaler to for their 333? If so which one and your thoughts would be appreciated. I'm looking into the DVDO and Lumengen but I'm not sure if the purchase is warranted for my uses.
Will be using xbox 360, HD-dvd player and possibly HTPC which I'm planning on running through the HSB-600 to the 333. I don't think the HSB does much for scaling however thus my question.
Thanks
Calvin

p.s. I've gotten a few inquiries about the filter holder for the 333. InFocus still hasn't updated their website to show this part, so you have to do it the old-fashioned way: Call InFocus at 800-660-0024 and ask to be connected to Customer Service. There is no part number; ask for the filter holder for the ScreenPlay 777. The filter holder is $99, and ground shipping from Kentucky to Northern Virginia (where I live) cost me $5.

The ND filter holder is nothing but a black metal ring with 3M adhesive on the flat backside (you stick this end on your projector lens housing) and a threaded front end (where you screw in a 72mm filter). So basically once you've attached the ND filter holder to the lens, it's on there for good.

As for the neutral density (ND) filters themselves, any glass 72mm threaded filter will do (don't use plastic ND filters... the heat of the light beam will melt them! :eek: ). I'm using ND 0.6 and ND 0.3 filters from Tiffen for my 333; you can buy them here (http://www.2filter.com/faq/tiffen/tiffenndfilters.html).


The part number for the filter holder is HW-NDFHOLDER-72MM. Infocus is currently out of stock on these, so you may have to look around to find one.

Really Scott, an HD-DVD player is only $500 which is, frankly, chump change given what you've got in your theater.

All the HD movies that will be released are available for no extra charge via NetFlix so to my mind waiting seems like the poor bet.

Regarding the 333, I just got mine and don't consider it all that much brighter than the Ruby I've seen. I would love to get a light meter on it. But I probably lack the experience to really see a difference.

One thing I've noticed is that it lacks some of the menu options listed in the manual Alan posted a pdf for: Is this what everyone has experieced? For example, no True Life, no Film Mode 3:2 pulldown mode, no NTSC 48HZ mode. What gives?

Regarding the 333, I just got mine and don't consider it all that much brighter than the Ruby I've seen.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :D (You sure it's turned on?)

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :D (You sure it's turned on?)

Yes, but it's hooked up to a 12V car battery and it doesn't quite have the juice to really drive it to it's full potential;)

Yes, but it's hooked up to a 12V car battery and it doesn't quite have the juice to really drive it to it's full potential;)

Given the gripes I've had about the developer who built our house I worry you could be right! :(

Really Scott, an HD-DVD player is only $500 which is, frankly, chump change given what you've got in your theater.

All the HD movies that will be released are available for no extra charge via NetFlix so to my mind waiting seems like the poor bet.

Regarding the 333, I just got mine and don't consider it all that much brighter than the Ruby I've seen. I would love to get a light meter on it. But I probably lack the experience to really see a difference.

One thing I've noticed is that it lacks some of the menu options listed in the manual Alan posted a pdf for: Is this what everyone has experieced? For example, no True Life, no Film Mode 3:2 pulldown mode, no NTSC 48HZ mode. What gives?Presuming it's at least as bright as a 777, you shouldn't need any experience to see the difference in brightness all other things equal (e.g. screen size). If your's really was that "bright", I'd say something is wrong.

As for the menu, the manual posted was for a 777 IIRC. I don't think a "real" manual for the 333 has been shown anywhere. May not exist. The menus you describe are Infocus menu's not the 333's. Somewhere in one of the 333 threads it was said that one could load the 777 firmware on one of these, but... I don't know how you could go back if you did. Unless someone has the file. The loader is one way (upload) I'm pretty sure.

Those are Faroudja features - I would presume Kodak did not pay the license to enable them. The 48Hz mode is pretty nifty - no other DCDI licensee ever implemented it - Infocus themselves only ever used it in the SP7210/SP777 (It was on the menu in early SP5700 but does nothing) You don't need an HTPC/scalar to run the frame update at 48Hz (a 2:2 sequence) - the projector will do it using the 480i component video. If you don't know how to see film to video judder (the 3:2 frame sequence)- be glad because once you learn to see it you cannot watch a non-48Hz display!

Kevin: I want to know how :). I've been meaning on setting up my system to give it a try but haven't gotten around to it. I have a Lumagen feeding the 777 so in my case I suppose teh Lumagen woudl do it, or I coudl bypass it I suppose, not sure on DVI. ANyway, what's a good way to test/see it? Is there a particular DVD source you can recommend to try it so I can see teh difference? I think I knwo what it looks like, but am not sure.

If you dont' want to spoil it for anyone else, you can PM me, or I'll start another thread and say "don't look you might be sorry". Of course I don't really want to know either if my setup won't do it :D

If you don't know how to see film to video judder (the 3:2 frame sequence)- be glad because once you learn to see it you cannot watch a non-48Hz display!


I know what you mean Kras. This is our first front PJ and I've been complaining about SDE to my wife and she doesn't see it but I keep griping and finally walk her up to the screen, point out what I'm talking about and then tell her to look for it in the bright parts of the picture.

So an hour later we're sitting there and she says "you A-hole, now I can't stop noticing it!" Great. On top of that I pointed out mosquito noise which neither of us had ever noticed on CRTs before. DOH!

The 48hz was a feature I thought it would have based on the manual and was an incentive for the purchase -- double DOH!

There also isn't the colour and tint options in the menu. I wonder if the Kodak software eliminates them?

Maybe Alan could ask Kodak for the documentation they developed for their ecinima customers.

GetGrey

I use the fadeout of SeaBiscuit - the whole ending race is good - but watch the dirt right before the credits roll. The holoship 360 with the Captain and Data is also a good one - as is the opening credits of that movie. I of course refer to THE Captain and THE Data - if you don't know what movie that is - then you are not a true geek....

The feature only works for component 480i - otherwise check with your scaler maker how to setup it up as it should sync to a 48Hz DVI (at least the other ScreenPlays do). It can be done on HTPC - but then you trade off the judder for the occasional stutter unless you are an ubertweak.

I would presume Kodak eliminated a lot of useless video features - don't they store the preshows on hard drives not video tape or DVD - thus they would have used the digital inputs?

Yup. I'm an idiot: Just discovered that when switching from digital input to component I get the True Life menu options. Now I'm bemoaning how bright the black screen is and my wife is telling me that if I want a projector that has a darker black that I better make sure it is just as bright. Oh can't someone make me a $40K PJ for $10K?

Also we just watched Odyssey 5 in HD tonight (either I have terrible taste or America does because that show is great (but was cancelled)) and the colours were absolutely fantastic. The fleshtones were well nigh perfect.

I think this may be as good as it gets--for my taste and 11 foot wide screen in a big room with light walls--until I can justify the cost of a three chip 1080p.

I think you need to feed the 333 an interlaced input (or at least a SD one) for TrueLife to appear in the menu. Try component from your DVD player.

Yup. I'm an idiot: Just discovered that when switching from digital input to component I get the True Life menu options. Now I'm bemoaning how bright the black screen is and my wife is telling me that if I want a projector that has a darker black that I better make sure it is just as bright. Oh can't someone make me a $40K PJ for $10K?

Also we just watched Odyssey 5 in HD tonight (either I have terrible taste or America does because that show is great (but was cancelled)) and the colours were absolutely fantastic. The fleshtones were well nigh perfect.

I think this may be as good as it gets--for my taste and 11 foot wide screen in a big room with light walls--until I can justify the cost of a three chip 1080p.Put an ND2 filter on it. It will lower that black level and it's still about 2 tmes as bright as other PJ's folks here like (i.e. Optoma H7x's witha new bulb) for a subjective reference point. Want to have a superbowl party with the lights on, take the filter off.

I've posted some information I have from my comparisons and experimentations with the 333 and the 900 with my new light meter on my construction thread for those interested in looking at it. My 333 hasn't been calibrated but I can tell you even on a full blown white screen on a 1.5 Gain it is not hitting the 3100 lumens claimed. (unless 9-10 hours on the bulb is shaving a hefty chunk off). Possibility of errors exist of course and all things aside the 333 is still a bright machine but I'm not seeing the numbers that were posted by Kodak as "Calibrated" or even close out of the box.
I'll have some photos up later but the information is there to review now.
Cheers
Calvin

Where did Kodak post any numbers? I missed those.

FWIW, my 777 (same bulb, more mirror AFAIK) measured 1741 Lumens when new. That works out to 48FtL on my 110", a little high ;). I am cutting that with a filter for a 110" screen to about 24FtL. Still high by convention, but I like it. A friend with a 777 has his on a 135, no filter and likes it fine.

It would be handy if you edit and add the link in the post above for those of us too lazy to go hunt for it :D

Where did Kodak post any numbers? I missed those.

FWIW, my 777 (same bulb, more mirror AFAIK) measured 1741 Lumens when new. That works out to 48FtL on my 110", a little high ;). I am cutting that with a filter for a 110" screen to about 24FtL. Still high by convention, but I like it. A friend with a 777 has his on a 135, no filter and likes it fine.

It would be handy if you edit and add the link in the post above for those of us too lazy to go hunt for it :D


He might be referring to these numbers:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=690344

mbunner,

Yes, those are the numbers I was looking at. The 3100 lumens as shown in that post. The closest I was able to get was 2055 lumens with a full white screen projected with the light meter about 15' from the lens. As I moved the light meter closer it unfortunately stopped giving me a read out and just showed 2 letters "OL" ? Not sure what that means OverLoad? Am I wrong in how I did the measurement do they measure from an inch away from the lens on a full white to get that lumens? Perhaps someone with more knowledge can take a look at my results on my construction thread and comment?
Cheers

OL is out of limit. The meter has a range button where you can up the range and then you shoudl be able to measure closer. What I do is use a 3'wide piece of poster board, or a yardstick. Find the place in the beam where the beam is just 36" wide. Take your reading at that exact point (center of beam) in fc, divide by 5.06 to get Lumens. Or work out the area in meters^2 and use Lux. That will get you close. For a more accurate reading, use a tripod, and take several measurments in locations like the ANSI patterns on my calibration DVD. Average those, then divide for ANSI lumens.

Note that the inexpensive meters aren't that accurate. They are great for making relative measurments using the same meter, but several have reported seeing significant variations between meters measuring the same light.

Get Gary,

I didn't think my cheaper light meter would be dead on but I thought it would be at least in the ball park - how far can it be out realistically?

Thanks again for showing me how to test further though, I find it interesting.
I'll redo my experiment and see how the results change.

Cheers

You're welcome. There was an old thread about it I started a long time ago. I was concerned about the accuracy of an Extech I had since I was getting very different numbers on a Optoma PJ than I expected. William Phelps, a well known calibrator here found poor performance of at least the Extech meters (same technology as my AEMC). He even had one that was supposed to be NIST certified that did not match his more expensive instruments. So I returned mine. On recommendation from Jeff of i1Pro, I got the AEMC which he's had good experience with he says. I did have mine NIST certified and FWIW, it required no adjustment, it was correct according to the cert company (who was also he reseller). The only way to know how far off they are is to compare to a high end (calibrated and certified) meter, i.e. Photo Research, Minolta, etc. For high end numbers like max Lumens I expect they are in the ballpark, low numbers not so much. But what they can do and do well IMO, is armed with a calibration DVD that has an easy to access full/max white pattern ;), a yardstick/tape, and a AEMC 813, you can go about anywhere and take a measurment of a different device to compare to yours. Then you know how much brighter (ah-hem, forgot which PJ I was talking about), I mean *dimmer* :) the other device is. I believe they are also good to measure how your bulb changes over time, or for "sizing" an ND filter.

Cheers, Scott

Sorry for the noob question here, but I don't frequent the big boys forum much:
What is the reason for buying such a bright projector only to filter the lumens back down to a useable home level? Not criticizing, just curious :)

Price3,

As the bulb dims you can remove or add different filters to maintain the same light output over time so your FTL are the same throughout the life of your bulb.

Cheers
Calvin

And it's not just about brightness. The 777 , and presumably the 333, have good contrast. As you reduce the naitive light level you still have a wider range from darkest to brightest (contrast ratio). With the "dimmed" overall output the brightness is still higher than say a single chip DLP, but the black floor is where it's supposed to be. Plus, no rainbows. I never saw any on 2 single chip DLP's I had, but I find with the 777 I dont' have any eye strain, it is a pleasure to watch.

Any 333 owners care to comment on scalers and this unit? I'm looking at Lumagen and DVDO but do I need them? I'll be using a Toshiba X-A1 and a Xbox 360 as the 2 video sources primarily. I'll be adding HDTV through cable or satellite at a later date.
If the difference is minimal or the benefits small I may wait on a scaler.
Thanks to any that share their experience and thoughts.
Cheers

My own two cents, you need a scaler, and you need someone to professionally calibrate it and your 333.

The difference between my uncalibrated 333 and my calibrated 333 and Lumagen VisionHDP scaler was night and day. And don't forget--a good scaler not only scales the picture but can also do all sorts of minute color and picture adjustments, which makes the job for the ISF pro that much easier.

333 Owners, what's the sex of the HDMI to M1 adapter? Will a standard HDMI cable (same connector on each end) work OK?

I ordered a 333 and am trying to get ready for its arrival - Hopefully next Wednesday.

Andy you will need a M1-DA DVI to HDMI for the 333 it doesn't accept a HDMI directly in the PJ. Scott has a post near the beginning of the thread that discusses this in more detail.

Scott thanks again for your input I'm talking with Jason now about a Lumagen.

Cheers

I am currently building a recreation/home theater room. I originally thought the Canon sx60 would be best because of its light output and and LCOS for little to no screendoor affect. Now that the powerbuy is on I have reevaluated and am considering the 333. The room is fairly large at about 30X39ft. The wall for the screen (hopefully about 120+inches wide) back to about 25ft is without windows so I have "some" light control but the room is open and the light from windows beyond that area (pool table and bar location )will not be controlled very well. The first row of theater seating is at about 12 feet (to eyes) and the second row at about 16 feet.

Sorry about the long prelude to the question but... I am very concerned about the screen door effect that might be noticable from the front row. Should I be? If I could feel confident that it wouldn't be a problem then I would go with the 333 but I can't change that rows distance at this point and really don't want to be putting all the time and bucks into this thing and have it look sub-par.

I appreciate any advice any of you may have.
Thanks,
Scott

The first row of theater seating is at about 12 feet (to eyes) and the second row at about 16 feet.
Sorry about the long prelude to the question but... I am very concerned about the screen door effect that might be noticable from the front row. Should I be? If I could feel confident that it wouldn't be a problem then I would go with the 333 but I can't change that rows distance at this point and really don't want to be putting all the time and bucks into this thing and have it look sub-par.

I appreciate any advice any of you may have.
Thanks,
Scott

My room isn't as large as yours overall, but, its 16' w x 22' d. My screen is a 10' wide (16x9) . The first row is about 11ft from the screen and my second row is around 18. The SDE is not that big of an issue. 11' away from a 120" wide screen and you can barely detect (and I mean barely) a trace of SDE. From the back row you can't see any SDE at all.

I too was concerned about the screen door effect. But it's not distracting to me or my friends/guest. Not once has anyone commented on it. I'm pretty dang picky and it doesn't bother me at all, in fact, I sit in the front row 90% of the time.

Hope that helps some.

sdebates,
I sit about 8' back from a 106" screen and I can't detect any screen door. I start to notice it at about 5 or 6' feet from the screen and I have 20/10 vision.
Here is a photo of the much discussed screen door. I find it is easiest to see on a white screen. This shot is a zoomed in photo and I have to be with in 5 or 6' to see this with my eyes

Click on the photo to enlarge.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h248/Calvin2006/Lux%20reading%20900%20vs%20333/th_closeupMSwhitescreenlightmeteron333.jpg (http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h248/Calvin2006/Lux%20reading%20900%20vs%20333/closeupMSwhitescreenlightmeteron333.jpg)


I don't think you will have any issues and with your room dimensions you certainly need a light cannon that is one big room. 120" seems almost small for that room size - wish I had expanded my space to those dimensions you can have a giant screen with 333 if you have the ceiling height.
If your interested in seeing more photos I've lots on my construction thread taken from 7' to 14' back and you'll notice SD in none of them but the zoomed in shots like I've just posted.
Cheers

I can see screen door at 18' back from a 133" screen. Still, it does not bother me and the other plusses of the pj outweigh it.

Have another question here I'm trying to get all of my cabling straightened out and this damn M1-DA cable confuses me I've never seen this beast before and I've got some questions I hope someone can answer.

Is the M1-DA = DVI-D ? are they same or can you interchange them or is the M1 larger, more pins - different?

If I'm hooking up my Toshiba HD-AX1 player to the PJ directly I can go with a HDMI to M1-D cable

But..

If I purchase a Lumagen HDQ then I have to go HDMI to DVI-D to the Lumagen then DVD-D to M1-D to the 333. The cable run I need from the Lumagen to the player will be 35' to 50' depending on where the equipment settles out in the racking. I'm hearing that anything over 35' feet is dangerous territory - I do have a 50' HDMI cable I used with my Toshiba HD-850 and Panasonic 900 for a few months without issue perhaps I can just buy an adapter for that cable?

Some thoughts and help here please.. Is this going to work what do you think is the best way to set this up?
To confuse the matter I also have a Sherwood Newcastle HSB-600 HDMI switcher in the mix which I may or not may not have to use :confused:

Thanks for any insight fellas.

Personally I would use standard HDMI cables and use adapters if needed. If you need very long runs then a repeater/amplifier will help you out. They are not too expensive.

About scalers. One great benefit is definately switching and transcoding ability. Many different cables in, one out. Then there's the de-interlacing. 333 will do SD ok, but not 1080i. Try feeding the 333 with a static 1080i computer image (the desktop for instance) to see what I mean. Furthermore you have noise reduction (a must), sharpening tools, edge smoothing filters (again, a must) + many other things you'll learn to appreciate.

I would look into one of the new boxes if I were you. The Lumagen is probably very good and a safe bet, but both HQV (VantageHD, Dragonfly) and Gennum VXP (Optoma HD3000, Crystalio II) will outperform it. I use the Calibre VantageHD and like it very much!

FWIW, I have not calibrated the 333 (not even brightness/contrast - they are both spot on) and the picture looks superb to me. The only thing I notice is that dark dark grey is slightly blue-ish.

Thanks for the responses guys.

I feel a little better about SDE... although seeing it on 133" screen at 18ft is a little scary to me.

Any thoughts on the 333 compared to a Canon sx60 with regard to SDE?

Any other issues I should be thinking about that would be more important to the decision than SDE?

Thanks again.

Scott

Scott, just to be clear that is 133" wide so it is a big image, and while I can see it with my sharp eyes my wife cannot. Also, I can really only see it on a white background.

For us, we are happy with the 333 decision vs. the Ruby for the same money.

Thanks for the responses guys.

I feel a little better about SDE... although seeing it on 133" screen at 18ft is a little scary to me.

Any thoughts on the 333 compared to a Canon sx60 with regard to SDE?

Any other issues I should be thinking about that would be more important to the decision than SDE?

Thanks again.

Scott
I wouldn't worry about SDE... I don't notice it from 12' away on my 10' screen. And although I haven't seen the SX60, on paper it sounds like the 333 is the better performer in terms of contrast and light output (the latter being an important consideration on larger screens like the one you're planning).

Re the M1-DA question: Just go with an M1-DA/DVI-D adapter on the projector end, run DVI-D cable between the projector and your equipment room, and then either hook the DVI cable directly to your source or buy a DVI/HDMI adapter if necessary. The 333 wouldn't know what to do with the audio portion of an HDMI signal so there's no need to worry about stringing HDMI to the projector. Just go with DVI cabling and be done with it (I don't recall that I ever even saw an M1-DA-to-HDMI adapter when I was designing my theater). Run DVI-D cable... you'll be fine.

(I don't recall that I ever even saw an M1-DA-to-HDMI adapter when I was designing my theater).

They have them now. I run all my video through a Anthem D2 then out to the 333 via a HDMI line that connects to the M1-DA/HDMI converter. You can order one straight from Infocus.

Oh well there you go then. :)

They have them now. I run all my video through a Anthem D2 then out to the 333 via a HDMI line that connects to the M1-DA/HDMI converter. You can order one straight from Infocus.
Anthem D2? Cool... is it any good?

Yes they added it relatively recently, but you can now get M1 to DVI or M1 to HDMI.

Anthem D2? Cool... is it any good?

I really like it. The menus are fairly easy to use, the sound is great and it has the added bonus of having a builtin processor.

Every once in a while I want to checkout the higher end A/V receivers coming out, the ones with the ipod support, internet radio and builtin video processor because I'm a gadget lover. But outside of that temptation I'm really happy with my D2.

I'm surprised to see SD rendered so crisply by a 3-chipper. It must have an awesome light engine and lens.

The SD exists at the panel level. The better the lens, the more defined the pattern will be at the screen. This also creates a sharper looking image.

A poorer quality lens will smear the pixels and overlap the SD. This will hide the SD from those sitting too close (closer than 1.5 times the screens actual width), but results in a less sharp looking image. As long as you sit the proper distance from the screen, the SD isn't visible. If one wants to sit closer, a 1080P PJ is the correct answer.

That the SD is clearly defined is a good thing because it indicates a superior lens. Now if the SD was visible because the chip had poorer fill factor (like the LCD chips do) it would be bad.

Glenn

sdebates,
I sit about 8' back from a 106" screen and I can't detect any screen door. I start to notice it at about 5 or 6' feet from the screen and I have 20/10 vision.
Here is a photo of the much discussed screen door. I find it is easiest to see on a white screen. This shot is a zoomed in photo and I have to be with in 5 or 6' to see this with my eyes

Click on the photo to enlarge.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h248/Calvin2006/Lux%20reading%20900%20vs%20333/th_closeupMSwhitescreenlightmeteron333.jpg (http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h248/Calvin2006/Lux%20reading%20900%20vs%20333/closeupMSwhitescreenlightmeteron333.jpg)


I don't think you will have any issues and with your room dimensions you certainly need a light cannon that is one big room. 120" seems almost small for that room size - wish I had expanded my space to those dimensions you can have a giant screen with 333 if you have the ceiling height.
If your interested in seeing more photos I've lots on my construction thread taken from 7' to 14' back and you'll notice SD in none of them but the zoomed in shots like I've just posted.
Cheers

Any thoughts on the 333 compared to a Canon sx60 with regard to SDE?

Any other issues I should be thinking about that would be more important to the decision than SDE?

Thanks again.

Scott

SDE isn't a problem for most people at reasonable seating distances, and other than that it won't have any other detrimental effects despite what some people may profess.

The 333 is 16:9 which is ideal if your main content is movies, and means that you won't need to mask the unwanted lightspill of the remainder of the SX60s 4:3 panel. You can also go for a cinemascope set-up with an additional anamorphic lense if felt the need.

It will probably have better scaling and deinterlacing than the Canon too, so that will give a better image with less artefacts. The IF models tend to come pretty much calibrated to D65 out of the box too, so colour accuracy should be better and more accurate (the early Delta engined 3 chipers had a red that was a little towards orange though, but I don;t knowe if this is still the case).

DLP doesn't suffer from colour uniformity like LCD and LCoS, or from dead pixels (dead mirrors are rare), so that's something less to worry about, and the blacks are more convincing too.

Unless you have ambient light, I would always try to aim for cinema levels of reflectance (9 to 12FL) to reduce image noise visiblity. That can always be an issue with bright projectors regardles of the technology, though HD content tends to have considerably less noise than SD sources.

I would try to get a demo if possible though, as the two technologies are quite different and you may prefer the smoother look of the Canon to the sharper look of DLP.

Gary

I'm surprised to see SD rendered so crisply by a 3-chipper. It must have an awesome light engine and lens.
Well, considering that the lenses cost more than some entry-level projectors, yeah, I'd say the 333 has good lenses. :cool:

The len's are made by Minolta for what it's worth. Marantz is always touting that when discussing their Minolta manual throw, manual focus lens; in addition ot being sure it's embossed in big white letters on teh lens itself. I'm always surprised Infocus dosen't do the same name dropping when discussing their lenses. Just becasue it's Minolta proably dosen't mean it's a superior lens, but at least we know it's less likely to be a cast plastic, no-name, made in [you know where], inexpensive lens. I was glad to see it was a Minolta when I saw what is inside the cover.

True that... $$$ does not necessarily equal quality.

But in this case it does. :cool:

True that... $$$ does not necessarily equal quality.
Agreed. This is one of those rare occasions I really feel I was on the better side of "get what you pay for". I find it comforting to know this was what, about $35k a little over a year ago. $20-$25 off is is a lovely thing. I wonder how Alan's stock is running, get'em while they are hot!

OOPs!

My 333 arrived today - BRIGHT!

So, I put Tiffen ND .6 and .3 filters on it (taped to the front ) and that helped a lot for about ten minutes. The the .6 filter cracked right down the middle.

Now I need to find a way to tame it down while I try to figure out why the filter would crack. I had them about 1/4 inch in front of the pj lens. It does get hot there!. I had a small piece of tape from the filter to the top of the case plus two others on the sides to hold them in place. I suspect that having both filters was the mistake - no cooling air in the area between them.

Any other suggestions?

Also, I just got the CalMan software and a Spyder2 and think I can take some measurements - although I've only been able to spend a couple of hours with the package so far. I guess now's the time since the filter is off (g)

Use Hoya HMC glass filters (ND2, ND4), they aren't affected in the same way as plasric or resin filters.

Gary

I think the Tiffens are glass as well. Sure looks like broken glass <g>.

I'd try to limit the filters to 1 if you can. You'll get some light reflections going on with them anyway and 2 will compound that problem.

Uh oh, I'm getting kinda giddy. My theater is being designed by DE right now and although I'll wait for his suggestions, I'm really liking the way this pj might fit. In a light controlled room about 13.5x28, I wanna have about as large of a CH screen as possible. With finished walls and false wall, room becomes appx 13x25. I'm thinking with the long throw lens this might be just what i need to get at 120" wide while mounted on the rear wall. What do you guys think? At this price, it seems like its a no brainer. I hope they don't run out before I can talk to Dennis.

Hey guys, I have standing searches on ebay for 777's. Just saw a notice for a genuine IF 777 (or 333) ceiling mount for sale, may go cheap. HTH:

Item # 160022501564

I noticed that there is a tag on the side of the box that my 333 arrived in that says "3081 LUM" with the "3081" part being hand written. Should I assume that's the measured luminance from this particular projector?

Although I've attempted to do some measurements, its going pretty slowly (mostly personnel problems). I'm trying to figure out what to do with the NITS number from CalMan.

Hey guys, I have standing searches on ebay for 777's. Just saw a notice for a genuine IF 777 (or 333) ceiling mount for sale, may go cheap. HTH:

Item # 160022501564
Hands off, that mount is mine :)

Seller is the same guy I got my spare lens (1.8-2.25) from.

I have one of those 1.8-2.25's. Did you ever try yours to see that it fit, and what the "stock" lens said on it?

No, and I prey that I never have to find out. It was too cheap to pass.

It was too cheap to pass.Yeah, that's pretty much why I got the one I have, too.

Uh oh, I'm getting kinda giddy. My theater is being designed by DE right now and although I'll wait for his suggestions, I'm really liking the way this pj might fit. In a light controlled room about 13.5x28, I wanna have about as large of a CH screen as possible. With finished walls and false wall, room becomes appx 13x25. I'm thinking with the long throw lens this might be just what i need to get at 120" wide while mounted on the rear wall. What do you guys think? At this price, it seems like its a no brainer. I hope they don't run out before I can talk to Dennis.

Don't worry, we won't run out....yet;)!!!

It appears that you should be OK with a 120" screen at that distance. You'll get up to about 270" throw for the 1.8-2.25 lens. Do you have a scaler for the stretch to 2.35? What lens are you thinking of using? The ISCO III's will hopefully be out soon.

I have a new HD-DVD player (and another on the way) that I'm trying to hook up to the 333 through the M1-DA connection. I've used the cable that came with the PJ then as I have to get it to HDMI to the A1 I've used a DVI to HDMI connector I've purchased at Monoprice and then HDMI male to male to the HD-DVD player. The connecters are pictured below.

Click to enlarge -

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h248/Calvin2006/HT%20Main%20-%20Basement/th_IMG_1256.jpg (http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h248/Calvin2006/HT%20Main%20-%20Basement/IMG_1256.jpg)

I have no issues getting the player to work with PJ through component but I'm very interested to see if the M1-DA connection is any sharper.

I'm sure it must be either a handshaking issue with HDMI or perhaps the connectors. I've never had issues with anything from monoprice in the past so I don't believe it is the cabling (other then the DVI to HDMI adapter the HDMI cable is only 6' long and is good quality)

Has anyone else had issues or know of anything I might try ?
I've ordered just one solid cable that is M1 to HDMI from Monoprice that I'll likely get next week and hopefully that will work. Am I stuck waiting for the new cable or perhaps the update 2.0 ?

Thanks for any help.
Cheers

Did you remember to switch your HD DVD player so it outputs HDMI ?

got my 333 today. what a great looking pj. two questions:

- mine does not have the shroud that covers the connector panel. it is clear that it is made for one and the manual even mentions removing it but there is none there. is that normal?

- i guess the actual 777 has the infocus logo light up? might be kind of dumb to ask but that seems like it would be cool. any idea why the 333 does not? could it be activated?

g

FWIW, no shroud on mine either. I didn't realize it could be there <g>.

A couple of more questions you folks can maybe help with.

I have the 333 ceiling mounted (8ft ceiling) with the lens roughly 230 inches from the screen. I want to go with constant heigth at 54 inches. At least for a while we'll use the projector's zoom instead of an anamorphic? lens. We used the blue blanking screen to do some measurements rather than assuming that the lens meets its 1.8 to 2.4 specs and decided that the lens is very close to those numbers. So, we mount the pj, put up images and find that the images don't fill the raster (like the blue field does). Part of it is that we are using keystone correction, but the image still doesn't fill the raster without it. The signals are analog component from a dvd player or Dish HD receiver. Can anyone share some insight as to why this happens?

As I look at anamorphic lenses I keep going to the Prismasonic - the idea of leaving it in place all the time has great appeal. But, I have no idea of how much distortion it causes. With our 2.4 throw ratio, geometric distortions should be small but what about chromatic abberations, etc - or will it even work with the 333 at all?

got my 333 today. what a great looking pj. two questions:

- mine does not have the shroud that covers the connector panel. it is clear that it is made for one and the manual even mentions removing it but there is none there. is that normal?
Yes. That's a "feature" that they removed from the 777 to save $$$. You don't need it, so don't worry about it.

i guess the actual 777 has the infocus logo light up? might be kind of dumb to ask but that seems like it would be cool. any idea why the 333 does not? could it be activated?
There's nothing there to activate--the glowing logo was another dubious "feature" removed for the 333. Trust me, I've seen the glowing blue logo on 777's, and after you get over the "kewl" factor you want to turn it off.

Oh and p.s, the 333 has a matte finish where the 777 is glossy. Again, I think the matte finish may look more dull but that's a GOOD thing in a home theater.

Another? What other things have you found missing that *you* think are dubious?

I like the logo, and by the way, it goes off on it's own after a few minutes, so I haven't run in to anyone who wants to disable it.

The shiny case, including it's rear cover panel are quite nice, too.

Considering how much those features cost, I'm happy they're not there to save the thousands of dollars difference in price between the 777 and 333.

I totally agree Scott. Well worth it in my opinion.

i love the price and so far the pj looks awesome. i am just getting greedy. on the 777 you can turn the light on full time in the menus. since my pj is in the equipment room i think it would be cool to have it work. i just thought maybe it was something simple like the led is removed or the wire is not connected to the mainboard.

greg

Has anyone measured the brightness at min and max zoom? I am shooting via a mirror in a rearpro setup so can use both. There are pros and cons with both options but brightness has priority.

TorAtle,

I'm back at work for the next 10 days but when I'm back on October 6th I can take a look at the min and max for you with the light meter I have (If no one posts any numbers by the time I return home).
My light meters not the best but it should give you an indication.
Cheers

Thanks! Will avait your results.

I posted some pictures of my as of yet unfinished rear projection setup starring the 333 in this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8537258&&#post8537258

Screen is a Draper Cinescreen 13 (2.40:1, gain 1.3) with high contrast tint.

Where can I purchase this projector? When I click on the links in the previous posts I get a do not have permission and one of the reasons for this message is that "you are trying to access a powerbuy that has now ended."

Thanks,
Brendin

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=690344

Anyone know how to reposition the "zoom, focus, vert, horiz" menu window to a location other than the lower left corner of the display?

I've been watching 2.35 movies on my 2.35 screen by zooming (I don't have an horizontal stretch lens). It actually works pretty well except that the zoom, etc menu window disappears into my masking system.

Can anyone confirm that this is HDCP compliant? I assume it has DVI input also (how many?).

How much are the bulbs and how many hours do they last?

Those of you who have gone to the CEDIA - have you seen a better value than this 333. I mean - a 3 chip dlp fof $7500! wow! Unbelievable! I really don't need a projector now (for another year or so) - my 9" CRT is still pretty good at 95" width. I have a 150" wide screen but masked to 95". but I am wondering if this is too good to pass up.

Has anyone measured the brightness at min and max zoom? I am shooting via a mirror in a rearpro setup so can use both. There are pros and cons with both options but brightness has priority.

TotAtle,

I measured the max zoom in at 512 LUX from 18' on the total white test screen

The Max. zoom out came to 339 LUX at the same distance and screen setting.

Difference of 173 LUX between the two.

Cheers

Can anyone confirm that this is HDCP compliant? I assume it has DVI input also (how many?).

How much are the bulbs and how many hours do they last?

Those of you who have gone to the CEDIA - have you seen a better value than this 333. I mean - a 3 chip dlp fof $7500! wow! Unbelievable! I really don't need a projector now (for another year or so) - my 9" CRT is still pretty good at 95" width. I have a 150" wide screen but masked to 95". but I am wondering if this is too good to pass up.

It is HDCP compliant. It has one M1-DA (DVI equivalent port) You can port the M1-DA connection over to HDMI or DVI (both of which I've done testing mine with no issues.

The bulbs are around $700 US and last 1500 hours.

I know of no better 3 Chip DLP on the better market for the price - I along with the other owners on this thread am quite happy and would buy it again no question - tremendous value for what your getting IMO.

Cheers

TotAtle,

I measured the max zoom in at 512 LUX from 18' on the total white test screen

The Max. zoom out came to 339 LUX at the same distance and screen setting.

Difference of 173 LUX between the two.

CheersHow can you be at the same distance and screen settings for the 2 zooms? The best way to do this is to choose a size, lie 3' wide and at the short zoom measure the lux/ftc at the spot where the image fits that width, then zoom to th eother extreme, and measure the lux/ftc where that zoom setting fills the same area. Maybe that's what you did, it's mexican restaruant night so I wasn't sure ~:)...

Cheers, Scott

My apologies in advance - I don't mean to pose a flaming question.

My prior extended use/viewing experiences:

1. Original JVC DILA years ago - 500:1 contrast simply not acceptable. Not bright enough.
2. Moved to christie 9500. @ 95" wideth. Picture excellent. Nothing to complaint about. I watch only HD.
3. Sony HS51 on a 80" wide screen. Picture is fine for the price but too dark. Not even comparable to the NEC or CRT.
4. Tried a friends NEC HD6k but its a huge 3 chip projector - 3 years old, listing for around $55,000. Its got around 3500 lumen output. on 120" wide screen. Picture is excellent but I still think that the CRT (albeit at 95") is better. Nothing to complain on the NEC picture- its excellent but 'there is something about the CRT picture which makes it superb'.

Can someone with long viewing experience/ownership of a 9" CRT and this 333 please comment? Again, my intent is not for a digital Vs analog etc. discussion!

My current situation: I am actually quite happy with my 4 year old Christie 9500lc but I am just wondering if this $7500 deal is too good to pass up (since I have a 150" wide screen currently masked, already).

Is this the HD2+ chip or is it the earlier generation? (new)777=HD2+DC3, 333= HD2. Can't say if it's too good (for you) to pass up or not. It is a good deal on what it is IMO. It's a nice PJ that listed for $35k what, about 18-24 months ago. Comparing CRT at 95 to DLP at 120" just isn't apples and apples. I'd think if you were happy with CRT at 95" then one of the 1080 Sony's might suit you nicely. If you want big though, you'll need the light and the 333 gives that at a bargain basement price, while they last.

Just as I am sure it is with many other members, my next step/goal is to achieve as close to the depth/contrast as my current CRT but at 150" width but I am in no rush. It all starte only because I thought $7500 was an extremely attractive price for 333. Some one wrote that the measured contrast of the 333 is 3000:1. Has that been re-confirmed by others too?

My friend just told me that the NEC I saw was rated for 1400:1 and was tweaked to 2000:1 contrast. I am probably not as refined as a viewer as some of you - I might not recognize or appreciate the fine tuning with gamma correction, d65 or color correction as much as many of the experts. In the past, when william phelps came over to calibrate my DILA, I really did not notice a huge improvement - as others seem to have. Not his fault - it was certainly the limitation of the DILA with such low contrast. Even when he tried to help me understand the 'improvement' as he was doing the gamma correction - I just did not 'get it'. I am probably in the middle of the pack, when it comes to picture evaluation. Having said that, I find the CRT to be excellent and I am hoping to replicate as close as possible, to its picture but taking advantage of the brightness of the digitals for a 150" width. The 333 might well be the answer but I am just thinking out loud - its an unbelievable deal but as I write this, something just occured to me: I am probably going to wait a while. I don't need to worry that I will miss out on the 333. Many of you have both the 'itch' and the money to upgrade - I might get one used in a year. Some of you would have probably even tweaked them to perfection that it would even be better than new! Thank you for the feed back.

How can you be at the same distance and screen settings for the 2 zooms? The best way to do this is to choose a size, lie 3' wide and at the short zoom measure the lux/ftc at the spot where the image fits that width, then zoom to th eother extreme, and measure the lux/ftc where that zoom setting fills the same area. Maybe that's what you did, it's mexican restaruant night so I wasn't sure ~:)...

Cheers, Scott


Scott,

Put that post together in a hurry so it wasn't explained as indepth as it should have been perhaps. The measurement was taken from the same distance and screen area but the screen size of course was very different. Sorry for any confusion - The results were an answer for TorAtle's question but I posted them here incase others might have a similar question.
Cheers
Calvin

Calvin: Sorry, my post was less coherent after a few Margarita's and hurrying myself, too :).

Unless I misunderstood, I don't think those are the numbers Toratle needs. He need to know how the lens zoom affects the light output. The way to test that is:
1) Display a full white pattern like the one on my cal disc
2) Pick a set image size, I'll use 36" wide for example. You can use a piece of poster board, or a yardstick. For optimal results, use a tripod or other holder.
3) Zoom the PJ to one extreme.
4) Find and place the yardstick/posterboard at a point in the beam where it is "filled" left to right. That is, where the light beam is 36" wide.
5) Place the light meter's sensor at that same point in space, same distance from PJ (center of image). Measure the output.
6) Now zoom to the other extreme. Repeat steps 4, 5.

Those 2 measurements give you apples and apples measurements. That is, the difference in the 2 measurements will represent the difference in light output and specifically how it is affected by the lens itself. Also, since you know the image width when measureing, you can easlily calculate the lumen output at both positions. Projection area would be 5.0625 ft2. So Lumens is the meter's reading in ftc/5.0625. Applies to both measurments cause the area is the same.

You can get fancey and do a ANSI comparison by measuring at several points in the beam on each of the 2 measurments and then averaging the lot of them each at each measurment location, but for this purpose that's overkill.

HTH, Scott

The procedure GetGray is describing will give me the results I need. Sorry if this was not clear.

The main reason for wanting to see the difference is because I am using the 333 for rear projection. Rearpro diffusion screens are much like a high gain FP screen, only with low gain :) Brightness uniformity is therefore an issue, and ideally the distance from projector to screen should be long. If this drops the lumens too much then I will have to make a compromise.

I understand if it'll be too much hassle to re-measure, no problem. If you decide to do it however, maybe you could measure 0 IRE at both extremes too so we can see the difference in contrast ratio?

maybe you could measure 0 IRE at both extremes too so we can see the difference in contrast ratio?If you do that, for the best results, I'd find the width just before where the meter saturates and make that the "reference width". Then whatever that width is, repeat previous procedure. And when measuring use Lux (as you did already) since it will give a few more digits on the dark reading.

I didn't know you were doing an RP setup, TorAtle. I think you're the first person I've heard of who's doing RP with the 333... would love to see a picture of what you're doing.

See post #367, Scott :)

^^^ kewl. :cool:

Can someone comment with their personal experience of viewing 333 Vs the new 1920X1080 projectors? Is the extra detail of a 2k projector that much more obvious as opposed to 1K. As I type in the numbers, I might be answering my own question. 2k Vs 1k? Well...

(Full disclosure: I haven't directly compared the 333 to a 1080p projector; I'm talking about my sole experience comparing a 720p single-chip DLP projector with a 1080p Ruby projector, and the nearly seven months I've been enjoying my 333-equipped home theater.)

Do you notice the difference side-by-side? Of course. Do you feel like you're missing something with only 720p? When I'm sitting in the Scooterplex enjoying a movie on my 333, of course I don't miss anything--after all, DVD resolution is less than what 720p puts out. But fwiw, I don't feel like I'm missing anything on HDTV material, either. Sporting events and network broadcast HDTV look terrific on my 333.

Don't get so bogged down on resoltion alone, audvid--that's only one component that goes into what makes a good picture. Brightness, color saturation/accuracy, contrast and dark levels--all of those are important too, and in those categories I'd pit my 333 against any projector in its price range (and more than a few out of its price range).

If you want to a 150" screen you need the light output. There are 1080p 3-chippers at a price, if you can afford to even consider them I would have a look for myself. If not then the 333 is the best value 720p 3-chip at the moment. An alternative is experimenting with a high gain screen. Or you could wait...

(Full disclosure: I haven't directly compared the 333 to a 1080p projector; I'm talking about my sole experience comparing a 720p single-chip DLP projector with a 1080p Ruby projector, and the nearly seven months I've been enjoying my 333-equipped home theater.)

Do you notice the difference side-by-side? Of course. Do you feel like you're missing something with only 720p? When I'm sitting in the Scooterplex enjoying a movie on my 333, of course I don't miss anything--after all, DVD resolution is less than what 720p puts out. But fwiw, I don't feel like I'm missing anything on HDTV material, either. Sporting events and network broadcast HDTV look terrific on my 333.

Don't get so bogged down on resoltion alone, audvid--that's only one component that goes into what makes a good picture. Brightness, color saturation/accuracy, contrast and dark levels--all of those are important too, and in those categories I'd pit my 333 against any projector in its price range (and more than a few out of its price range).

Thanks for your comments Scott. Frankly, I don't watch SD DVDs much anymore. I realize that there would be minimal difference, if any, for SD.

I have never seen a 2K projector. I disliked the 1 chip DLPs (motion blurr+head ache). My main experience is with the NEC HD6K 3 chip (contrast 1400:1 to 2000:1) with great everything else, and my own 9" CRT. I did have them for some time in one room. At that time, I did not have HD. Now with HD, I find that I like the CRT better. I know I will appreciate the 3000:1 contrast of the 333 (I am sensitive to good contrast ratio). I am less concerned about the 720p Vs 1080i/p. I am more curious as to whether or not I would appreciate the difference between the 1360 Vs 1980 horizontal resolution - on such a large 150" screen. Frankly, but for this very attractive price of 333, I would not even entered into this discussion.

As far as the price range goes, its simply an unbelievable price range and I do agree with you that its almost impossible to find a superior value - unless the screen size is smaller.

My ten-foot-wide screen knocked out the 1080p projectors that were on the market in my price range when the Scooterplex was being built. Even now I am unaware of any other three-chip DLP projector in the 333's price range with comparable light output to the 333.

Scott, I don't think any 3 chip DLP projector even exists for less than 2 times the price..in fact close to 3 times the price. And lumens to me looks higher than just about anything I've seen.

I'm considering it for my 10 foot wide screen as well. Scott, do you find it ever too bright? Do you use a filter to dim it, or is that unnecessary?

As I understand it, these projectors were modified by Kodak. Are they new projectors? Are replacement bulbs easily available? At what cost?

Thanks for any info. I was considering the new Pearl, with its great contrast ratio and even better price. But I refuse to go with a smaller screen than my 120" wide 1.3 gain screen. I also do a considerable amount of viewing with some lights on, and watch almost exclusively broadcast HD. It seems like a bright picture will do more for me than higher resolution.

Scott, I don't think any 3 chip DLP projector even exists for less than 2 times the price..in fact close to 3 times the price. Actually both the C3X and the 777 could be had for less than 2x, unless you were buying them from Tweeter,etc. Probably much less, depending on buyer/seller.

Scott, I don't think any 3 chip DLP projector even exists for less than 2 times the price..in fact close to 3 times the price. And lumens to me looks higher than just about anything I've seen.

I'm considering it for my 10 foot wide screen as well. Scott, do you find it ever too bright? Do you use a filter to dim it, or is that unnecessary?

As I understand it, these projectors were modified by Kodak. Are they new projectors? Are replacement bulbs easily available? At what cost?

Thanks for any info. I was considering the new Pearl, with its great contrast ratio and even better price. But I refuse to go with a smaller screen than my 120" wide 1.3 gain screen. I also do a considerable amount of viewing with some lights on, and watch almost exclusively broadcast HD. It seems like a bright picture will do more for me than higher resolution.

Kreisman,

They are new PJ, bulbs are easily available (I just received my spare last weekend) they are around $700 US a bulb and they last 1500 hours.

Cheers

Calvin: DId you get your bulb here? Alan mentioned somewhere discount bulbs woud be avail for these but I never saw any details. I thought they were less. I need to be getting a spare for my 777 to have on hand.

Scott, I don't think any 3 chip DLP projector even exists for less Scott, do you find it ever too bright? Do you use a filter to dim it, or is that unnecessary?
Yes, but that's the advantage of owning a bright projector like the 333. Right now I'm using an ND3 neutral density filter that attenuates 75% of the 333's light output. As the bulb gradually dims, I'll eventually switch to an ND6 that only attenuates half the light, and then finally toward the end of the lamp life I'll run the 333 with no filter at all. This way, I'll enjoy properly-illuminated images right up to almost the very end of the service life of the bulb. Here is an Excel spreadsheet I wrote (http://www.scottgammans.net/scooterplex2/foot-lambert-calculator.xls) to help me plot the screen size, gain and ND filters I needed.


As I understand it, these projectors were modified by Kodak. Are they new projectors?
Yes, they're brand new but use the slightly older version of the DLP chip that current 777's use. Search this thread for more information.


Are replacement bulbs easily available? At what cost?
That's something I've been trying to find out from Alan (I bought my projector from AV Science). At one point there was supposed to be a powerbuy on bulbs, but that either seems to have fallen by the wayside or I missed out on it. The replacement bulbs are about $650-700 IIRC, and they're rated for 1,500 hours.


I also do a considerable amount of viewing with some lights on, and watch almost exclusively broadcast HD. It seems like a bright picture will do more for me than higher resolution.
I rather doubt you'd be happy with the Pearl if you do lights-on viewing with a 10-foot-wide screen.

Calvin: DId you get your bulb here? Alan mentioned somewhere discount bulbs woud be avail for these but I never saw any details. I thought they were less. I need to be getting a spare for my 777 to have on hand.

I bought my bulb through AVS when I bought the PJ. The bulb was finally received last friday they were having some issues getting it as I understand. The price was closer to $700 us then $650 but I would have to dig out my receipt for the exact price I'm thinking it was $680 or thereabouts. It is the exact same bulb used for the 777.

Cheers
Calvin

I've been digging around on the web looking for a replacement lamp with zero luck! A few places list it but none have it in stock.

Anyone else found them?

It is the exact same bulb used for the 777.
Calvin What is the lumen rating for 777 and 333? I thought that the 777 has lower light output. Does it mean that the 777 bulb will cause the 333 to have lower lumens?

I've been digging around on the web looking for a replacement lamp with zero luck! A few places list it but none have it in stock.

Anyone else found them?

Did you try AVS ? Give Tryg or Jason a call they can help you out. :)

What is the lumen rating for 777 and 333? I thought that the 777 has lower light output. Does it mean that the 777 bulb will cause the 333 to have lower lumens?

I can't answer the technical side of your question but I'm positive they are the same bulb used in both the 333 and the 777 - I'm equally sure there is no such thing as a separate bulb for the 333. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to explain why they both have the same bulb but have different light output.

calb1n,

Do you know the model number of the lamp? Is it SP-lamp-020?

I ask because one web site listed the SP777 replacement lamp as SP-lamp-006. I suspect they have the wrong part number.

Thanks

Gary,

I'm not at home to pull the part number off it sadly but I'm sure someone here or from AVS will chime in with the model # etc... your looking for.

Cheers
Calvin

Both units take the same bulb. The extra brightness via the 333 is due to the modification in the light path worked out between Kodak and Infocus differentiating the two projectors.

I'm sorry, I guess I didn't phrase the question properly.

I believe the 777/333 lamp part number is SP-LAMP-020. One site said the 777 SP-LAMP-006. I just want to make certain which one is correct. I understand that both pjs take the same lamp.

Alan, do you folks have replacement lamps available?

So from what I understand the 333 uses the older chip while the 777 uses the newer Darkchip 3 correct? Therefore bringing to the screen much better contrast according to the numbers I have been reading.

So why all the hype on the 333? If they are both similar units but with the only difference being the greater lumens output on the 333 & the better chip with greater contrast on the 777 I don't see why anyone would want the 333 over the 777.

I'm not bashing, correct me if I'm wrong but the 777 is similar priced as the 333 plus, it project around 2000 lumens to the 333's 3100 lumens so the difference to many, is not that big a deal cause 2000 lumens is more than plenty even if you'd want to project an image 160" diagonal cause I've done it with the H79 which has half the lumens on a friends screen & it still looked pretty good. My screen is 119" diagonal but I'm now thinking CH with around 13 feet wide cinema scope.

Chris

Do a search for a few on line reviews of the 777. You will see the real world measured contrast was about 3400:1 to 3600:1 in the reviews I read. A few people in this thread owned both the 333 and 777 at the same time and measured both. The 333 came in around 3200:1 or 3300:1. Visually no difference. They sold off their 777s. A little sales pitch, the 333 is almost half the price with your choice of 2 lens. You are not charged an additional few thousand for the other lens option. The 333 also includes additional color management software built into the 333. The power has been beefed up for 24/7 operation. The 333 allows people to experience a great image for a price never before available from 3 chip DLP.

Chris:

They hype is about price. It's an incredible projector at fire sale pricing. As for why someone would want one over the other, there are 2 reasons, IMHO. 1) save $$, 2) save more $$ if you need longer throw

My opinion is this. I don't believe the 333 could be any brighter (without a corresponding raise in the black level). Kodak isn't a hardware company for projectors and I find it hard to believe that it would
a) rebulid a power supply design (not that cranking more current into the same bulb would be good/acceptable/etc. even if they could) - edit: I would buy them beefing up the PS components for 24/7 operation.
b) change the light path on a Delta engine 3 chip unit or
c) be able to do it better than IF even if they were inclined.
If it were 30% brighter and had the same black floor, it would have a tremendously higher CR by definition. If IF could have squeezed any more CR out of the Delta engine on their flagship projector, I believe they would have. Maybe someone with enough R&D $$ could oink out some teeny incremental difference, but not anything huge. I believe the 333 is a nothing more than a rebadged 777 with Kodak labeled firmware.

BUT, that said, the 777 is NOT the same price as a on-sale 333, or even close, even if you have an "inside" to get one. I think it comes down to whether the significant incremental price is worth it to someone to get the "DC3" chipset, a shiny case, and a rear cable cover. Those are the essential differences.

ALSO, note as Alan pointed out they are offering a choice of len's so if you need a long throw lens, that makes the 333 ANOTHER few thousand less than a 777 which does not offer the optional longer throw lens (free). List on those len's is about $4k. Hell if someone with a 777 needed a lens, they might be better off getting relatively inexpensive 333 and swapping, then selling the 333 with the short (stock) lens!

Even IF the 333 produced more light (which I doubt) it could only do it at the cost of an increased black floor. If there was some magic way to get 30% more brightness out of the box without getting 33% higher black levels, don't you think IF would have incorporated it into their flagship Cinema unit? There's not that much to the light path, prisms and lens, and the lenses are the same. So take either unit and tone it down to reasonable black levels, and I believe the output on the high side will be same, or no more different that will exist between any two units due to bulb variances.

I am also not bashing the 333. In particular if you needed/desired the longer throw lens and you would be happy with the older DMD chipsset, then by all means, the 333 is an incredible value. I paid about as much a (insert derogatory adjective here :)) marginally designed single ship Optoma H77 and H79 just a couple years ago. How I wish the 333 had been there then! Remember that it wasn't very long ago at all that the "older" 777 (equivilant to current 333) was $35K. The "older" 777 was identiacal to the 333 (sans differences I mentioned already, IMO) up until about Feb of this year IIRC. The 333 should put out a very nice picture. I expect almost as good as a current 777 at way less $$, particularly if you need a long throw lens.

As good at the deal is, it will be a moot point soon, cause surely they are running out. This is the best deal I've ever seen on a Projector since I've been watching. If you are lookign for a deal, I dont' think this one can be beat.

This is all just an educated opinion from a natrual born skeptic :) however, one that is not agreed with by several. For all I know Kodak has a secret projetor department with superior delta light engine engineers working on the next Delta engine IF 1080. And they may be about to buy the struggling IF company to replace their struggling film company. ;)

I agree with most of what GetGray says. If they did modify the light path they probably opened up the (fixed) iris some, trading CR for more light since it was to be used on very big screens. They may also have cranked up the lamp voltage a little for the same reason.

One of us should make a ph******* to Kodak and ask about the details.

Whatevery the story is, the 333 is still a bargain if you need the light output.

Edit: p h o n e c a l l seems to be a naughty word :)

Hi guys

Infocus made the modifications to fit the requested needs by Kodak for OEM purpose.

I personally have not measured ether. It was explained to me via phone the mods that took place. The detail of the mods or where in the light path the changes were made were never offered in the discussion. I can only pass along what Ive been told here:

The projector is the Screenplay 333. We have measured the average ANSI lumen's at 3100 from our inventory. The projectors are labeled with brightness and contrast so we can sort for larger screens in cinemas. The spec sheet is attached with the high reliability and lamp strike specified and Kodak color science added for film look. It includes a two year warranty.

And from
Allen Fleener06-16-06, 04:57 PM
The InFocus SP 777 on an 123" diag. 16x9 Firehawk is 45 ft Lamberts, Grayhawk Reference is 32 ft Lamberts.
These numbers are using 2000 ANSI Lumens which is close to what a SP 777 can deliver.

The claim to brightness is something for you guys to sort out. My interest was not to pass up a great offering for a 3 chip DLP :)

Forty-five foot-lamberts?! Fleener's gonna burn his retinas.

Forty-five foot-lamberts?! Fleener's gonna burn his retinas.

He also posted you need a ND filter but I just grabbed the light output reading for the purpose of the conversation.

^^^ Well OK then. :)

This is the best deal I've ever seen on a Projector since I've been watching. If you are lookign for a deal, I dont' think this one can be beat.
In the 5-1/2 years I've been a member here I've never seen one this good, and I'm one of the ones who bought the 333 before the 25% price cut, which makes it an even better bargain.

Thanks guys I really appreciate the ifo..

I'm not sure which lens I will need since I haven't looked into that department yet but to project a 13ft image on a CH Cinemascope how far does the 333 need to be with both the short & the long throw lens?

Also, has anyone else (other than GetGray which I believe had an H79 i've read his opinion) ever had an H79 & now owns one of these babies that can chime in on the differences in going back down to an inferior chip?

Scott, I don't know about you, but I for one am loving havign a PJ that needs a filter to turn it down. With my previous PJs I was always wishing for that "turn it up" button. When my bulb dims and I pull off that filter, I'll be that much happier and back to bright. And, I kinda like that 45 ftL, sometimes :cool:. The only thing better that this would be a C3X heavy with an adjustable output, but that's a feature that will *really* cost some $$. Ours is quieter anyway :)

I'm not sure which lens I will need since I haven't looked into that department yet but to project a 13ft image on a CH Cinemascope how far does the 333 need to be with both the short & the long throw lens? I think somewhere in this thread I posted a spreadsheet with all the dimensions including throw stuff. Don't have the link handy. But keep in mind for CH the longer the throw the better. If you have the space for it. Longer throws will allow less expensive lenses and less distortion when stretched.

I have about 104 hours on my bulb in the Screenplay 333, and I currently don't use an ND filter at all. I guess my eyes have adapted to the brightness of the image that is displayed.

Anyway, here is the link that will help you with the distances and the screen size for the Screenplay 333.

http://www.infocus.com/ProjectionCalculator.aspx?itemId=sp777

Choose either "SP777 standard zoom lens" or "SP777 long throw zoom" to figure out the distances and screen size for the current SP333 lens options.

Great comments GetGrey. My sentiments exactly. The deal is great though.

I am so tempted to buy this - even though I don't need a projector right now. It seems so good to pass up. I am on the fence - I keep going back and forth on whether to buy or not. Things are holding me back are and following and comments are appreciated - to make me jump from the fence - either way.

I don't need one immediately and waiting for an year or so is no big deal. Hence I have the following reservations in my own mind.
2. Will the 1920X1080 chipset projectors be even more superior in picture quality. Obviously, 2K resolution Vs 1K resolution would have some difference but I am curious to know - from the practical point - is 1k resolution visibly inferior? I realize this is a very subjective thing.
3. Is the 'older' chipset any inferior to the DC3? Considering the contrast measurements, I think I would be quite pleased with 3000:1. I know I am not too keen on 1500:1 or 1000:1 contrast.

Thank you.

3. Is the 'older' chipset any inferior to the DC3? Considering the contrast measurements, I think I would be quite pleased with 3000:1. I know I am not too keen on 1500:1 or 1000:1 contrast. Well, in the FWIW dept.... I can't say about HD2 chipset to HD2+DC3 comparisons, but I was an early adopter on the Optoma H77 (HD2+). I was still looking for the performance I now have with the 777 but back then ($35k) price wasn't even something I could consider rationalizing. So, upgrateitus got me on the early adopter plan for the H79 (HD2+DC3). I can give a subjective opinon about the HD2+ to DC3 change: I think I'd have been hard pressed to say which was which in a blind test.

I would appreciate the opportunity to see one of these 333 machines set-up properly and operational. Anyone 333 owners here within a short drive from Louisville, KY?

David

Ours is quieter anyway :)
I only notice the 333's fan during passages of absolute silence, and even then it's not all that noticeable from my usual seating position 6' in front and 7' below the projector.

I only notice the 333's fan during passages of absolute silence, and even then it's not all that noticeable from my usual seating position 6' in front and 7' below the projector.Yeah, 777, too. When we all went out to CO to see the C3X and the 777, the C3X was considerably louder. Not too bad, but clearly not as quiet. I came from the practically fanless Optoma so I was spoiled.

Well I came from the NEC VT540, which sounded like an aircraft engine by comparison--and I never really was bothered by the VT540, so the 333 was heavenly quiet. :cool:

I can give a subjective opinon about the HD2+ to DC3 change: I think I'd have been hard pressed to say which was which in a blind test. Your comment is the exact kind I was looking for. Thanks. Now for next question: Subjectively, whats your opinion between the 1k resoution of 333 VS the new 2k resolution projectors - assuming that the extra brightness of 333 is ignored. Again, if you have experienced the 2K projectors, is the resolution really so much superior in HDTV (I don't care at all about SD DVD resolution).

The claim to brightness is something for you guys to sort out. My interest was not to pass up a great offering for a 3 chip DLP :)

I owned the 333 for 2 months, sold it and bought a 777. I can tell you the 333 is much brighter. my eyes hurts the first time I power up the 333 with a 135" Stewart studiotek 130. I never really measured them nor put them side by side but to me the 777's like the 333 with nd2 filter.

I owned the 333 for 2 months, sold it and bought a 777. I can tell you the 333 is much brighter. my eyes hurts the first time I power up the 333 with a 135" Stewart studiotek 130. I never really measured them nor put them side by side but to me the 777's like the 333 with nd2 filter.

Thanks for the confirmation :)

I owned the 333 for 2 months, sold it and bought a 777. I can tell you the 333 is much brighter. my eyes hurts the first time I power up the 333 with a 135" Stewart studiotek 130. I never really measured them nor put them side by side but to me the 777's like the 333 with nd2 filter. Was excessive brightness the only reason you changed from 333 to 777? Getgrey wrote that he would be hard pressed to identify between the HD2+ of 333 and DC3 of 777. Do you also concur?

Was excessive brightness the only reason you changed from 333 to 777? Getgrey wrote that he would be hard pressed to identify between the HD2+ of 333 and DC3 of 777. Do you also concur?

It's too bright for my home theater setup, but I primary bought it for my media room and it's perfect for it. However, I ordered the long throw lens and it's too long. I also want the shiny case pretty badly :D
I never got the chance to put them side by side so I could be wrong, the 333 seem to have better color out of box but the 777's slightly better with blacks.

Getgrey wrote that he would be hard pressed to identify between the HD2+ of 333 and DC3 of 777. Do you also concur?No actually what I said, or at least meant to say is I would have been hard pressed to tell the difference between my Optoma H77 (HD2+) and my Optoma H79 (HD2+DC3). I haven't seen a 333. If anyone that has one is near Middle Tn I'd be happy to take a look at it and measure it's output though.

Subjectively, whats your opinion between the 1k resoution of 333 VS the new 2k resolution projectors - assuming that the extra brightness of 333 is ignored. Again, if you have experienced the 2K projectors, is the resolution really so much superior in HDTV (I don't care at all about SD DVD resolution).You just can't compare a 333 to say a Ruby. They are so different I think they qualify for apples and oranges analogies. Both have strengths. There are volumes of threads on peoples opinions of the Ruby for example. For me it comes down to screen size. I want something that is bright (and wont' turn into a candle when it's at 50% bulb life), but that has the best intra-field CR's, and can do that on a large (120+ 2.35) screen. Right now there is nothing avail that I can rationalize that gives it all (i.e. 3C 1080 DLP=$55k). And it's a personal thing too. I've seen a Ruy and it's resolution is nice, but I prefer the DLP image and its brightness. Might be different if I had a bat cave and would be happy with a small screen (I dont' and wouldn't). I recommend trying to see one for yourself if possible. Best way to know for sure. That's exactly what I did when struggling between my 777 and a C3X. I bought a plane ticket, flew out to Integrity Home Theater in CO and spent some time with both. The relative small cost of that trip was worth every penny. The potential buyers remorse it saved me and confidence of knowing exactly what I was and was not getting for my $$ was very valuable. And, I got to see the mountains, too :).

I am really looking at this Kodak. tough decision...

Here is my delimma:

I really want a clean ceiling but that means having a 28' throw.

I will have a 2:35 setup (do I use an IscoIII or what?)

I want a 160"ish screen

This may be my only option given the brightness needed for that screen footprint.

I am thinking Isco III with the 2.4 throw lens....

Thoughts?

Also is there anyone around the Dallas/Houston area that has one?

TA: That PJ with a 2.4 throw and an Isco III will represent 2.35 lens nirvana. You *might* even be able to use a Isco II with that throw. Othe less expensive lenses are also options to consider. At that throw a lot of them should work well. HTH

A 2.8 throw is not an option on the Kodak though is it? or did you mean 2.4?

Texas Aggie, that sounds like a great setup. I have an ISCO III and really like it. It is extremely well made and is OEM on a lot of top-end PJs with a scope option. The great part is that with a separate lens, you can upgrade pjs over the years using the same lens.

A 2.8 throw is not an option on the Kodak though is it? or did you mean 2.4?Correct, sorry. My typing sucks, see sig :) . And I agree witn rom. As long as the PJ's put out 16:9, the lens will not be bested. No place to go but down with that hosse.

gotcha, well my mission now is to try and find a 777/333 to see around the Dallas or Houston area.....

Howdy,

I'm starting to look at 3 chip DLPs and this certainly has a lot going for it. Too much, at least in brightness, perhaps.

I currently have a Sharp 12000 projecting onto a 110" diag, 16:9 VuTec SilverStar screen. When I have a newish bulb in the unit, I enjoy the picture, though even then, it could be brighter. However, by 500 hours, I want to replace the lamp and by 800, I absolutely have to.

Beyond brightness, I'm also sick of panning fuzziness/muddiness (horizontal pans, for the most part). This is in part because I have to feed the projector at 60hz and the nature of 1-chip units. The 60hz thing is because of the projector. If you feed it at 48hz, it accepts it, but creates some terrible judder issues (the actual display system/color wheel doesn't change speed). 60hz has 3:2 pull down issues, but those are less blatant as the 48->60 judder problem in the projector.

I don't have a problem with 720 (vs 1080). While 1080 is very nice, since I'm pretty sure I do not want a 1 chip unit again, 3 chippers are seriously out of my price range. I've looked at the picture of a Ruby and while it's very nice, I've become pretty accustomed to the extra sharpness of DLP.

When I consider/compare the 333 to what I have now:

Pros
+ 3 chip -- less horizontal pan problems, no rain-bo
+ Ability to accept 48hz "natively"
+ Bright

Concerns:
- Too bright for the SilverStar @ 110"?
I can and would put an ND filter, but would I be looking at a .8 or something to do this?
- Contrast levels in comparison to the Sharp?
The reported levels are definitely less than the sharp 12k in high contrast mode (which is where I usually keep it), but better than the sharp in high brightness mode (which I rarely use).

Has anyone seen one of these things and a 12k and could comment on them> Also, while I could eventually replace the SilverStar, I did pay a lot for it (about 2 years ago) and would like to get some more life out of it (if even possible) before replacing it.


Gerry

Any 333's in Los Angeles area for a fellow, long time AVSer to have a look at? Would love to see one so I can decide. In exchange, I can offer a viewing of a Ruby in a suede panelled, quasi bat cave and Meridian reference theatre.

Howdy,

I've looked at the picture of a Ruby and while it's very nice, I've become pretty accustomed to the extra sharpness of DLP. Gerry Can you elaborate on this 'extra sharpness'? I have never seen a ruby. I have seen the sharp 12000. Sorry to say this - I just could not tolerate the horizontal motion blurr. It was simply too much for me. I can't see you go wrong with this 333. Keep in mind that you need to be aware not only of the 720p but also the horizontal resolution. 333 is 1K (is it 1360X720?) Vs the new 1080p are 1920X1080. This is the main issue for my hesitation. Otherwise, this 333 deal might be something I would regret later of having lost out on a great deal. Based on my viewing of the NEC 3 chip at 120" width at 2500 lumen and 5000 lumen output, I guess this 333 might well be simply too much of a projector for that screen size. I think this is much more desireable for 120"+ width screens. Of course, there would be the option of lower gain for smaller screens..

There is a certain extra "sharpness" to edges that DLP has over more LCOS oriented imagers. Some folks prefer LCOS/SXRD -- it's actually probably closer to the look of film and CRT projectors.

Don't get me wrong -- the Ruby is very sharp and detailed -- it's not at all like there were visible soft edges or anything. I'd have to say it was an overall impression more than something I could put into quantifiable terms.

I'm up on the 720 vs 1080 diffs and I'm sure that a 1080 is in my future somewhere, but probably not in the next 2 years if I put a stake in the ground avoiding single chip DLPs from now on.

My main concern is my screen -- at 110" and a SilverStar (which folks belive has a gain between 2.0 and 6.0 (depending on who you ask)), I'm a little concerned folks would be blinded/suntaned. But I don't know that with an appropriate ND filter, it wouldn't be a good combo.

Gerry

My main concern is my screen -- at 110" and a SilverStar (which folks belive has a gain between 2.0 and 6.0 (depending on who you ask)), I'm a little concerned folks would be blinded/suntaned. But I don't know that with an appropriate ND filter, it wouldn't be a good combo.

GerrySome subjective input...
1. Some here are saying the 333 is tuned to be at least a little brighter than a 777. Plausible considering it's original target.
2. I have a 777
3. I currently use a 110" Firehawk 16:9 screen
4. I prefer a brighter image.
5. My 777 is just about too bright even for me on a 110 FH.
6. I use a ND2 Hoya IIRC filter which puts it just about right. I believe this is 1 F stop or about half the light. This is with ~250 hours on the bulb.
7. My dealer recommends no less than a 135" for the 777 (no filter), which is what he has in his home(135" firehawk).
8. I have personally seen a few hours of material from the 777 on a 135" GH-RS and it's a beautiful picture (what, .85-,95 gain I forget?), no hotspotting, you can literally put your face against the screen and still see the picture across it , 180 deg viewing cone. The 777 handled a negative gain screen, even this size, with ease.

I think a Silverstar and a 333 would not be a good match. 110" will make that worse. You'd need a filter and sunglasses :)

But it is a good fit for the Ruby, according to Tyrg IIRC, so you could probably sell it. Although I understand shipping the solid versions is an ordeal.

HTH, Scott

Can I use the DVDO VP50 for this combo (333/IscoIII) ?

Any other processor suggestions?

Can I use the DVDO VP50 for this combo (333/IscoIII) ?

Any other processor suggestions?I use a Lumagen HDP. Perfectly good match for this unit IMO.

GetGray,

Can you tell us in general terms what the scaler is doing for you? ie are you using it to tweak the grey scale tracking, gamma, etc or is it mostly used to scale images for use with the Isco, reduce jaggies, etc. I don't have one presently and am trying to figure out just what the advantages are. One thing is that I assume it could provide the vertical stretch on HD material so a horizontal expansion lense will work properly with 2.35 HD material.

I think the pj's internal scaler may work OK with 2.35 480i material. Also, it seems like running the pj at 48Hz scan rate works well at reducing jaggies with standard def DVDs.


Also, in case anyone is following my search for a spare lamp for my 333, I ordered it today through AVS - Jason is the man!

For you guys that already have the 333...what is your subjective (or objective) observation on the 333 blacks compared to those in the wave of 3-LCD projectors such as the Panny 900 and others after calibration?

What average gamma curves are you able to achieve (2.2, 2.4, etc)?

Thanks

GetGray,

Can you tell us in general terms what the scaler is doing for you? ie are you using it to tweak the grey scale tracking, gamma, etc or is it mostly used to scale images for use with the Isco, reduce jaggies, etc. I don't have one presently and am trying to figure out just what the advantages are. One thing is that I assume it could provide the vertical stretch on HD material so a horizontal expansion lense will work properly with 2.35 HD material.

I think the pj's internal scaler may work OK with 2.35 480i material. Also, it seems like running the pj at 48Hz scan rate works well at reducing jaggies with standard def DVDs.


Also, in case anyone is following my search for a spare lamp for my 333, I ordered it today through AVS - Jason is the man!Gary, it does several things that are nice:
- only one cable to PJ, DVI-DVI
- highly adjustable output, can adjust image size, overscan, etc. To the pixel.
- allows a 10 point grayscale calibration although my 777 is so close I haven't fooled with it. I was waiting until I got some hours on it. Now it's time but I don't have time :(
- allows R,G, and B Hue and Saturation adjustments
- can cut output colors to just blue for example to set color/tint (hue/sat), very handy.
- It is a free "switch" for component, 2-DVI's, SDI, and the SD stuff I don't use. It transcodes all the inputs to the single DVI out, correctly. Currently I only use 1 DVI from a Tivo S3, and one SDI from my Denon 2900 DVD. Second DVI will be for HD-DVD or BR once the dust settles some more.
- Another nice thing about the Lumagen is you calibrate one input on the PJ (DVI) and then leave it alone. Everything else is calibrated to the scaler. I wrote and article on it that was a sticky in the Lumagen forum, I presume it still is.

But the 777 internal scaler and processor is no slouch I'm told. I just don't think it's quite as robust as the Lumagen. History is that I have a Lumagen becasue I had a Optoma. The Optoma video syncing frankly, *sucks*; big fat donkey...... Ahhem, sorry, you get the picture. The Lumagen did away with that issue for me cause it handled the syncing with external sources while simultaneously maintaining the sync to the PJ.

If I had it to do over AND I did not have a SDI DVD player, I'd probably try the 777 first, then consider the scaler. It's scaler is supposed to work very well. Now they appear to have removed/changed some of the stuff from the 333 and replaced it with Kodak stuff (Tru Life, IIRC), and I don't know how big of an impact that is. Can't say, the Kodak stuff could be an improvement. It's been said that one can load the 777 firmware on the 333, but if you did, I dont' kow how you could go back. AFAIK, the 333 isn't available anywhere. And you can' tread it off I dont' think.

Cheers, Scott

I guess I'll add my $.02 for those still on the fence. For our application we LOVE the 333.

We have a large open room, no black out shades, off-white walls and white ceiling.

20' throw onto a 133" WIDE screen.

A few observations:

We would not be happy with a Firehawk or a Greyhawk. White is not white, pretty much ever. The Firehawk looks rockin on blacks and colours but only in the center of the screen. Most of the screen looks like poop when we move our samples around out of the center.

We've used the Studiotech sample as a reference but it would need a ND filter or would be washed out.

We've tried twelve screen samples from Stewart and Da-Lite but are convinced none are the perfect combination of true colours, brightness and contrast levels provided by the white side of blackout cloth -- which is ever so slightly grey in tone rather than yellow like some of the Da-Lite samples which we can't figure out the thinking behind to save our lives.

If we could get blackout cloth in a 2:35 tentioned electronic screen we would be in heaven -- any ideas?

We currently do not use a ND filter and would not want one with the blackout cloth. With a matt white screen maybe we'll need one.

I personally don't think it is reasonable to use any SD material to rate any of the 720 or 1080 projectors.

We currently have a Realta based processor. I don't think it does squat diddly to any material coming out of my Dish 942 box.

Where it earns its bacon is processing HD material out of an HDDVD. Processing HD like that is essential if you want to get the whole 720 lines rather than 540 if you just feed the 333 1080 without the processor. The 720 output from the HDDVD is reported to be garbage.

When viewing HD material from Dish or HDDVD the picture is absolutely jaw-dropping. I can't imagine anyone saying it was lacking.

Would 1080p be better? Of course! If my wife would let me pay that much for a 3 chip 1080p I would. Well, no, I wouldn't; it would be crazy. I can't imagine it would be $27,500 better, because that's about what it would cost you.

I've seen a Ruby and it looks great. But even in a perfectly dark room with dark walls and ceiling it lacked the pop of the 333.

We wanted a projector which allowed us to have a huge screen in the family room without making drastic decorating changes. The 333 allows us to watch the projector like a tv. We can even turn six pot lights in the kitchen on and the PJ still looks plenty bright and the image great.

The light output of the 333 overcomes a lot of room problems for those without a dedicated HT.

I'm sure the black level is a little higher on the 333 than some would want but believe me, it still looks great and unless you were doing a side by side comparison you may not really notice. Regardless, the pop you get and bright colours that aren't washed out makes you feel like you are there, rather than simply watching a movie.

I haven't yet used a calibration DVD on the 333 as the skin tones look right right out of the box and even grass looks pretty natural.

Seeing Riddick in HDDVD really showcases the colours and the deep rich colours even with high light output really seem, to me, to be a factor that puts three chip DLPs in a class of their own.

Oh, and for those wondering, you can certainly see facial hair clearly with HD content and compared to a Ruby on a large screen, I don't feel I'm missing anything in the detail department.

Thus, while I look forward to 1080, I need it bright and do not believe it worth the money you would have to pay to equal the 333 -- at this time; maybe in a couple of years. Of course, if you have money to spare, don't worry about it.

If I had a black walled, light controlled room, and a much smaller screen, maybe a Ruby or Pearl would be just dandy for us.

We're in San Diego. Please let me know if I can answer any other questions.

__________________
Strength and honour.

I guess I'll add my $.02 for those still on the fence. For our application we LOVE the 333.

We would not be happy with a Firehawk or a Greyhawk....
We've tried twelve screen samples from Stewart and Da-Lite...
I personally don't think it is reasonable to use any SD material to rate any of the 720 or 1080 projectors.
.. a Realta.. I don't think it does squat diddly to any material coming out of my Dish 942 box.
....out of an HDDVD... if you want to get the whole 720 lines rather than 540 if you just feed the 333 1080 without the processor.
...But even in a perfectly dark room with dark walls and ceiling it (ruby) lacked the pop of the 333!!!!!
..... the pop you get and bright colours that aren't washed out makes you feel like you are there, rather than simply watching a movie.
..... compared to a Ruby on a large screen, I don't feel I'm missing anything in the detail department. Your comments were sure worth more than .02! Thanks.

Not missing much in detail dept Vs Ruby? Very interesting to hear.. Can you please explain your comment... get whole 720 lines instead of 540 with a scaler if 333 is fed 1080? I am not sure I understand the difference being made by the external scaler Vs 333's internal scaler.

Your comments were sure worth more than .02! Thanks.

Not missing much in detail dept Vs Ruby? Very interesting to hear.. Can you please explain your comment... get whole 720 lines instead of 540 with a scaler if 333 is fed 1080? I am not sure I understand the difference being made by the external scaler Vs 333's internal scaler.

Yeah, this came as a shock to me too.

Here's how it works (this is off memory, but I'm sure I'll be corrected if I fudge something) in layman's terms.

A 1080 signal is made up of two fields of 540 lines per field, called the odd field and the even field. All together, top to bottom, they overlay so that the lines of info go even-odd-even-odd-even, and so on.

A 1080i display will paint, either line by line, or all at once (CRT = line by line, LCD, for example, = all at once) first one field and then the other to total 1080 lines.

A 1080p display will paint all 1080 lines all at once rather than first the even field and then the odd field.

A 720p display like the 333 can only display 720 lines of info. 720p content seems to be not nearly as ubiquitous as 1080i info is these days. (Note that a "deinterlacer" takes the even field of 540 lines and overlays it with the 540 lines of the odd field so that you have just one field of 1080 lines. Thus, with proper deinterlacing, a 1080i signal looks EXACTLY the same as a 1080p signal. Here, we're more properly concerned with "scaling" as explained below.)

Most every 720p display will take the 1080 input and DISCARD(!) the even field, leaving just the 540 lines of the odd field which the display's (including the 333's) processor will "upscale" by using interpolative algorithms to basically artificially create the extra lines of information to total 720 lines which is the display's native resolution, and then output that in a progressive fashion, or all at once, without layering the odd and even fields.

Thus, while your display has the ability to display 720 lines, or 1280 x 720, what you are really getting, even when you input 1080 lines, is 1280 x 540! That's a loss of about a quarter of a million pixels!

With a video processor like the one I'm using, the processor will take the 540 lines of the odd field and the 540 lines of the even field and "deinterlace" them so that there is a single field of 1080 lines (progressive) floating around in the processor's brain.

It then "downscales" the 1080 lines to 720 by dropping and blending lines of data. You actually lose about a million pixels this way, but you're still left with more than upscaling from 540 lines.

No display I'm aware of will do this right. You need an external processor for this.

This is why a lot of folks say "oh HD on a 720p display doesn't look so great, I'll wait for 1080p!"

Sure it doesn't, because you're losing 25% of the information available.

Believe me (I prefer the line "trust me, I'm a lawyer"), 1,000,000 pixels of real data looks AWESOME on a 333.

For $7,500 you could have a 333 and for $2,500 or less you could have a decent scaler too and have a system that will make your friends cry with envy and blow away almost all the competition. Another plus is the 333 comes calibrated so well out of the box you really don't need to sweat that expense if you don't want to -- also making your friends green with envy.

Just call Jason and tell him you want the faterikcartman referral special!

Note the comments from people who own the 333. They all love it except for one guy who switched -- to the newer 777 -- which is almost the same thing (but costs more)!

If you don't want a big screen and have a bat cave, I would probably buy a Ruby. If you are a more normal Joe who just wants to hook up a projector and rock in your family room, you won't regret the 333. The light output overcomes a lot of weaknesses in your room.

I hope this cleared up what a lot of the fuss is about. I'm sure in a few years when prices have come WAAAAAAY down, I'll get a three chip DLP 1080p PJ, but for now, the 333 was the best bang for my money.

Cheers

Most every 720p display will take the 1080 input and DISCARD(!) the even field, leaving just the 540 lines of the odd field which the display's..
No display I'm aware of will do this right. You need an external processor for this.
Are you absolutely sure that external processors do not discard and that the scalers internal to 333 or other projectors discard 1/2 the data? Thats a lot of data to discard.

What about something like a HDTIVO or the HDDVD/BD players? Can we not simply set all of these sources to 720p output and not have this scaling problem? I am hoping they won't discard!

Are you absolutely sure that external processors do not discard and that the scalers internal to 333 or other projectors discard 1/2 the data? Thats a lot of data to discard.

What about something like a HDTIVO or the HDDVD/BD players? Can we not simply set all of these sources to 720p output and not have this scaling problem? I am hoping they won't discard!

Yes, I'm sure. Absolutely.

I doubt a Tivo unit works any magic but you'll have to check with Tivo.

I assume you get DISH with all the HD channels including the Voom HD channels? If not, if you get an HD projector you may as well enjoy it. Garbage in, garbage out you know.

I don't know about the HDDVD and Blue Ray players for sure, but my GUESS, of which I'm practically certain, given their price-points and other observations, is that you lose the data going from 1080 to 720 and they do upscaling to 720 from 540 rather than down to 720 from 1080.

This would probably explain why everyone reports crappy images outputing 720 from an HDDVD player.

You may also be able to find an old, out of date processor that upscales with this gimmick. None of the newest top-end ones do.

I respectfully disagree with faterikcartman's opinion on a Firehawk. You really can't judge that materail with the 8x11 squares Stewart sends out. Get one (a whole one) in a room with no light control like his and you'd see what I mean. I've seen them side by side with every popular screen on the planet. Blackout cloth wasn't one of them, guess I'm a snob ;), and for rooms with any ambient issues, the FH was unbeatable, except for one. And it costs about double. The GHRS on the other hand is a beautiful screen if you want negative gain and a perfectly uniform viewing angle. And the colors on it look just fine.

Cheers, Scott

I'm sure you're not the only one to think that Scott, and I agree it is probably pretty hard to judge with just those little squares, but they're all I've got! :(

You may also be able to find an old, out of date processor that upscales with this gimmick. None of the newest top-end ones do. You mean the gimmick would be that the older ones 'drop' the even field?

...Most every 720p display will take the 1080 input and DISCARD(!) the even field, leaving just the 540 lines of the odd field which the display's (including the 333's) processor will "upscale" by using interpolative algorithms to basically artificially create the extra lines of information to total 720 lines which is the display's native resolution, and then output that in a progressive fashion, or all at once, without layering the odd and even fields.
....With a video processor like the one I'm using, the processor will take the 540 lines of the odd field and the 540 lines of the even field and "deinterlace" them so that there is a single field of 1080 lines (progressive) floating around in the processor's brain. With all due respect to faterikcartman (I am worried he might be right), can other owners of the 333 please comment? Those with and without an external processor? Dropping fields would be a huge information loss. I have to assume that more of you have noted this issue? I thought external processors were a thing of the past, with the advent of the digital projectors. I guess I was incorrect?

The 333 will not drop a field but rather alternate the two. Try setting up a HTPC with 1080i out - the desktop will shake if fed that way to the 333. Others will just drop one of the fields. None of these methods are acceptable.

The 333 will however accept 1080p24 which hopefully the new HD-DVD and BR players will output. This signal is progressive so no loss of resolution other than the downscaling to 720p. Yes you will get another scaling step (edit: for SD and 720p material) but this may be preferrable to 3:2 judder.

Prediction - some of the next gen AV receivers will sport better processing like the Silicon Optix Reon. If you don't need the flexibility of a standalone scaler this will probably suit your needs. I am guessing this will affect external scaler sales in a big way...

The 333 will not drop a field but rather alternate the two. Would that mean that there is no discarding of good data between the external and 333 scalers? Or even if there is a difference - where external scaler would 'combine' even+odd fields and the 333 scaler would display the even field first and then the odd field - both being scaled to 720p? - in this case, the display field/frame refresh rate of the 333 is doubled? Have any other 333 owners seen this deficiancy in using its internal scaler?

I doubt the presumably Farouja (sp?) equiped processing chain in the 333 drops odd 1080i fields. But I haven't studied it. More likely it deinterlaces then scales. I am told by a good friend with a HDP and a 777 that the latest firmware in the HDP is doing motion adaptive deinterlacing and is bad to the bone at preparing the 1080i signal for 720p output. I can easliy see where an external processor would do a superior job to the internal one, particularly with a braod range on inputs including 1080i. Theres a really good article in WSR a few months ago on deinterlacing etc. by Greg Rogers. A must read if you are concerned.

Check out this review at UltimateAV: http://www.guidetohometheater.com/videoprojectors/105infocus/index1.html

extract:
"For conversion to the native 720p resolution of the projector, 1080i material undergoes an interesting process. Consider each 1080i frame as two 540p fields. Each of these 540p fields is converted to the 720p native resolution of the 777. These upscaled fields are then displayed sequentially. One could, I suppose, make the argument that this potentially reduces or eliminates the temporal (motion) problems inherent in 1080i material. One could also make the argument that it eliminates any spatial (static) resolution advantages that 1080i has over 720p—or indeed over even native 720p sources. But since both 720p and 1080i material looked superb on the 777 (more on this a bit further on), I haven't yet considered the implications of the process too deeply"

Check out this review at UltimateAV: http://www.guidetohometheater.com/videoprojectors/105infocus/index1.html

extract:
"For conversion to the native 720p resolution of the projector, 1080i material undergoes an interesting process. Consider each 1080i frame as two 540p fields. Each of these 540p fields is converted to the 720p native resolution of the 777. These upscaled fields are then displayed sequentially. One could, I suppose, make the argument that this potentially reduces or eliminates the temporal (motion) problems inherent in 1080i material. One could also make the argument that it eliminates any spatial (static) resolution advantages that 1080i has over 720p—or indeed over even native 720p sources. But since both 720p and 1080i material looked superb on the 777 (more on this a bit further on), I haven't yet considered the implications of the process too deeply"

I regret to opine that the conclusions TorAtle wants to draw from this makes no sense.

Even if you show the 540 fields sequentially, you are just overlapping two 540 fields (even if upscaled to 1080) so that the most you will ever see, even if your eye still retains the first field is 540 lines of data.

The process described above still does not allow the 333 to somehow show 540 lines and then shift the second sequentially shown field to fit in between the first 540 lines to total an impression of 1080 lines (like a 1080i display does).

It just shows the second 540 line field on top of the first 540 line field for a total of 540 lines of resolution upscaled to 720 resulting in the dropping of a quarter million pixels as I described above.

Sorry. Buy the external processor.

I regret to opine that the conclusions TorAtle wants to draw from this makes no sense.
Eh? I wrote earlier
The 333 will not drop a field but rather alternate the two. Try setting up a HTPC with 1080i out - the desktop will shake if fed that way to the 333. Others will just drop one of the fields. None of these methods are acceptable
Note the last sentence!

Does the 333 have 3:2 inverse telecine?

Any of you 333 guys using Panamorphs? I am curious if the lens of the 333/777 matches up well with the Panamorphs. The entry side of the current Panamorph's is not very big.

Any of you 333 guys using Panamorphs? I am curious if the lens of the 333/777 matches up well with the Panamorphs. The entry side of the current Panamorph's is not very big.
Depends on the projector lens. The 1.44-1.8x is pushing it for the aperature of the Panamorph. The 1.8-2.4x for the most part should be okay.

I have mine at about 14' throw on a 8' wide screen. I use a Panamorph P752 for now, it works fine, can't say about Shawn's (Panamorph's) other lenses. He'd be a good person to ask. He was very responsive to questions when I had them, very helpful, nice guy.

Ah, well the P752 has a much much larger aperature than the newer models (U100, U85, etc....). In fact the P752 has about the largest aperature of any lens I have seen.

Thanks for the clairification Jason. I'll sell my trusty P752 one of these days. I've got an Isco III, just no time to finish the 2.35 room. Where does it go...grrrr..

It's too bad that he made the newer ones smaller. It does make it harder to work with many of the current projectors. Congrats on the Isco III! That is a killer lens and you will never have to replace that.

The 1.8-2.4x for the most part should be okay. Fate has smiled on me. I would be in the zone for the 1.8 to 2.4 lens, and I have the position flexibility to be near the longer end of the lens to fill the 120" wide screen.

Joining the 333/777 crowd, Cam Man? We are one happy family :)

Joining the 333/777 crowd, Cam Man? Possibly so. Of course, if the wif has a cow I may have to sell it. :eek: We'll see. ;)

...I've got an Isco III, just no time to finish the 2.35 room. Where does it go...grrrr..

Do you want my address by PM or e-mail?

Perfect. You should be aokay then.

Do you want my address by PM or e-mail?Well, I haven't give up on the room, yet :).

If you think you will ever use it again, hang onto it. These things have gradually increased in price over the past few years. We used to do powerbuys on the ISCO II for the $999 range. Now they are over $2k new. It might just be the ONLY piece of equipment you buy that increases in value! :)

Jason, good advise. I was just kidding with Ray :). I have no plans to let it go anywhere. I watched for over 2 years to get a deal on one and it was just a fluke I finally did. I'm even reluctant to sell the P752, but I will probably let that one go once I get some walls and 2.35 screen.

The lamp on my 333 has started flickering after only 402 hours. The flickering calms down after 30 to as much as 90 minutes. Has anyone else noticed this sort of behavior?

flickering bulb? thats not reassuring...my DWIN did that as well but went away after a few minutes.. after a 100 hours or so it went away completely.

The flickering has gotten quite noticeable lately, and it seems to be taking longer and longer for the lamp to "settle down" after powering up.

Nobody else has noticed this? Could this simply be a bad lamp?

Nobody else has noticed this? Could this simply be a bad lamp?Or power supply/filter capacitor? Mine doesn't have that many hours yet, can't be much help as a data point good or bad. FWIW, I think one of the C3X owners (Free?) had a bulb flicker when in low power bulb mode in their Sim C3X. Only did it in low IIRC. I don't remember what the resolution turned out to be.

Have you asked IF yet?

No, but I'm not even sure if I'm supposed to go to InFocus first or AVS. Alan?

Currently waiting for Kodak to get their new inventory of bulbs. Scott, PM sent.

Are there any convergence concerns with 3 chip dlp and if yes are there menu controls for convergence ?

While I do not have the 333 I do have have a 3 chip DLP and the Blue and green are dead on and the red is off only on the far left about 1/2 pixel. I also have a Sony Ruby and wish its convergence was as good as my DLP 3 chip. I think it is easier to align 720 then 1080P. We will have to see how 1080 3 chip DLP does once it starts shipping. The units at Cedia received very good comments in that department. People were watching less then one screen width with no complaints. I would never expect any 3 chip technology to be perfect but you may get lucky. What we see as MS could also be partly due to lens chroma aberration.

There are no controls for adjusting convergence on the 333. Then again, there are no convergence issues to worry about (at least, not on MY 333).

I have about 170 hrs on my 333. Haven't noticed any flickering. Also, I don't see any misconvergeance.

The flickering has gotten quite noticeable lately, and it seems to be taking longer and longer for the lamp to "settle down" after powering up.

Nobody else has noticed this? Could this simply be a bad lamp?

Scott,

I believe that Citation4444 had a bulb flickering problem on his Sim2 C3X. It progressed similarly to your description and he contacted Sim2 support directly. They diagnosed his problem, IIRC, as a bad bulb and replaced it. That's not to say this is your problem, but it may be one possibility vs. something more serious in the PJ itself. I forget which thread he posted this in, but a simple search may turn it up, or a PM to him. HTH

Ray

It's not a very serious issue for me (at least, not yet) and like I said it goes away after the lamp gets "warmed up" (interestingly enough, it disappeared almost immediately after turning the projector on last night). When Alan gets another shipment of 333 lamps I'm planning on buying two, so I'll trade the lamps out and see if that solves the issue. If it does, I'll just keep the flickery bulb in reserve as a spare tire.

It's not a very serious issue for me ... I'm planning on buying two,..I'll just keep the flickery bulb in reserve...My compliments for such a positive and understading attitude. Even if proven that the bulb was defective, you are not looking for a warranty replacement? Nice!

Eh, if it's not too much trouble I suppose I'll try to get it replaced under warranty.

I just don't want to bother with it until I have a replacement lamp already in hand... I'm so addicted to watching TV and movies on my 333 that I can't bear the thought of it being out of commission for even a single day!

... I can't bear the thought of it being out of commission for even a single day!I wish I were buying one but my darn 9500lc just refuses to die or even dim. The tubes look perfect - almost as new (mostly because I set it with lower contrast to preserve tube life). May be one of you 333 owners will get an upgrade bug next year for one of those 1080p projecors and will sell the 333? This is such an unbelievable bang for the buck. I am going to so regret not buying one. Meanwhile, I will try to poison my 9500lc to die a slow death so that I can justify it!

I doubt it will be next year, audvid. I can't imagine 3-chip DLP 1080p dropping down to the $7,500 price of the 333 until 2008-09 at the very earliest.

And really... I'm sure that a 1080p 3-chipper will look much, much sharper than my 333, but enough for me to ditch a great-looking projector that's only 2 or 3 years old? Can't see it, at least not right now.

Unless (until) something comes out that's a good bit better than 1080 3C DLP, I doubt we'll ever see it drop below $15,000. Maybe $13000 street, maybe. The 333 is a fluke deal, if it were not there, the next best similar options (no names mentioned), and still at 720p, will street for most at let's say well over $12-14k today. I had hoped Sony's cheaper units would drive 3C 720 DLP to the floor, but so far it hasn't phased it, at least not Sim2 or IF. Really, even since Cedia 05 when Sony popped the ruby out of the box, IF nor Sim2 have budged on pricing. Not significantly anyway. All I saw happen is a bunch of IF and Sim2 dealers that went right out and became Sony dealers. Probably what I'd have done in their shoes. They (DLP PJ mfgrs) appear to be perfectly happy with the situation or they are simply unable to drop it any more. The SXRD's or single chip 1080 DLP's just haven't driven them down much, if any. Which is too bad. At this rate you won't see a C3X at $7500 ever (stubborn company) much less 2008-9. Take their Delta engine 3C 720p unit. They didn't drop it any in price AFAIK. They told me that they only kept it around for "custom" stuff requiring more versitile lenses ($$$), event though it was outdone by their own C3X, they didn't budge on it's place in the $ heirarchy. If they develop an in-house 3C 1080 engine like the C3X, they'll probably pull the C3X and sit on the 1080 pedestal touting superiority against the then $1000 SXRD (Sony Cubic Zirconia) ;). But, maybe by the time HDDVD or BR starts to win out, 1080 will be avail at under $13 street in anything that is bright, and has high intra-scene contrast. Hope so. But I'd not lay any $$ down betting on it.

Another reason to "get'em while they're hot" if you think a 333 will meet your rooms requirements and don't want to pay more for the other 2 similar alternatives.

:)

Sounds reasonable to me. This being my first HT Proj., I don't know what the service life (other than bulb) and problems are that come up with these pricey items. My concern would be that, with IF circling the toilet bowl financially, what is the long-term availability of good service and parts? If your scenario is correct and we (3chip 720 owners) don't/can't move to 1080 until at least beyond 2009, then aren't we facing inevitable service issues beyond simple bulb replacement? I truly don't know and am curious, not flame-throwing at IF. But if intricate service is needed and IF is gone, what do you do? Are these things so similar (DLP series) that another company could work on it and get needed parts? Some level of failure must be beyond the local tech's ability.

My personal plan is to keep my C3X Lite until its equivalent in 1080 is a resonable price (e.g. similar to what I paid for my 720 version). If that day is many years off, I certainly hope Sim2 stays in business for any problems I encounter. Not knowing the ins and outs of PJ service issues, I would be less comfortable as an IF owner, especially the high-end stuff like 333/777. It may not be a real issue, but I was wondering anyway.

Eh? I wrote earlier

Note the last sentence!

Just got back in town and you are right, your last sentence (neither acceptable) clears up the misunderstanding. Sorry!

"Unless (until) something comes out that's a good bit better than 1080 3C DLP, I doubt we'll ever see it drop below $15,000"

WOW! Thats quite a statement to make.

I would be amazed if 3 chip 1080 dlp's arent under $10K in 18 mths. Unless the mfg's just dont want to sell many.

Are these things so similar (DLP series) that another company could work on it and get needed parts? Some level of failure must be beyond the local tech's ability.


When Davis went out of business in 2001, They set aside certain monies that allowed a set amount of warranty work via third parties for three years. I had one warranty service call after Davis went out of business and sent it to a third party warranty center in North Carolina ( Davis was a Danish company) at no cost to me. Hopefully if IF goes out of business theywill follow Davis' lead. Anyway any third party warranty center that services dlp pj's should be able to fix any hardware failure. And as for bulbs the Davis 650's 6000 hour bulbs were still available as of Jan 2006 although at a higher cost (540$ versus 425$).

"Unless (until) something comes out that's a good bit better than 1080 3C DLP, I doubt we'll ever see it drop below $15,000"

WOW! Thats quite a statement to make.

I would be amazed if 3 chip 1080 dlp's arent under $10K in 18 mths. Unless the mfg's just dont want to sell many.Betcha a dollar they aren't :). And I hope I lose.

took the 333 plunge today...

Looks like core setup will be:

Kodak 333
IscoIII
DVDO VP50 or Lumagen w/sdi mod
SMX 170" 2:35

took the 333 plunge today...

Looks like core setup will be:

Kodak 333
IscoIII
DVDO VP50 or Lumagen w/sdi mod
SMX 170" 2:35

Now that sounds like quite the setup. A bright 3 chip PJ thru the ultimate HE Lens onto a huge CH screen! With that size screen, I just hope you sit back far enough to avoid seeing pixels and burning retina. :D

yeah 1st row is 13' then 17 then 22.

the room is 29L an 18 w

cant get done fast enough

I just wanted to report that after installing a new lamp the "flickering" behavior disappeared. It must have been the lamp and not something else in the projector. :)

yeah 1st row is 13' then 17 then 22.

the room is 29L an 18 w

cant get done fast enough

Texas you will have to put up some pics when you get that together.
170 " SMX screen I'm so jealous :D
Must be quite the room to have 3 rows and a monster screen like that :eek:
Cheers
Calvin