Matt,

Can the resizing be done via macros on say a pronto/marantz remote?

Yes it can, BUT with complication.. Here are some of the details I am in the process of forwarding to my contact at Calibre :-

No simple "ASPECT" changing...and the problem with using a macro to perform that task.
While i was aware that there would not be a button on the remote for the changing of aspect ratios, I had thought that applying a series of macros to auto-step me to the Aspects areas of the menu would be a no brainer.... (no "one-press only" aspect control via the remote is a major oversight in my opinion given all the different media types and aspect ratios we have to deal with)

However, there is a problem with implementing a macro with the design of the Vantage HD Menu system, not for just the aspect mode changes required.
The Menu system is a little too smart in that it remembers the LAST main menu position, as opposed to always having a specific postion selected when you press the menu button (ie, whenever you press the menu button, the default selection could always set itself to "Picture Control" for consistency, and to solve this problem).

I had initally thought that to get around this i could program my universal remote to simply scroll up to the top of the menu to create a locked starting point.... but the main menu scroll LOOPS back down the bottom of the menu! :(
So unless you makes sure 100% of the time that you Manually return the menu option to the same position each time there is no way for macros to work effectively with this unit in order to easily change aspect ratios, or any other setting you would like a "one-press" button solution for ....
This means you are looking at a minimum of 7 unique key presses just to change the aspect mode for the image!....and if you accidentially get it wrong, you have to go through all those steps again.
You really need to make the basic functions of this unit easily available to non-techies, as I a know that i am not always around to make the appropriate changes when others in the household are watching TV, etc.

- No Aspect Ratio control with 720p/1080 sources.
When the source is Hi-Def based you have absolutely no aspect ratio control.. even though there are 4 modes stated as being available in the drop-down menu, (CROP is shaded out). They do not "reshape" the image in any way regardless which aspect mode is selected.

And without knowing how these new HiDef machines will handing the image outputting of DVD source material could pose problems down the track for customers using DVD on a HiDef machine that has been upcoverted to 720/1080.... they will HAVE NO ASPECT CONTROL OF DVD MATERIAL with the Vantage in this manner.

Eg. if you have a Hi-Def 2.35:1 movie and you don't like black bars top and bottom, you can't crop the image to fill the screen. (blasphemy i know :)
Another Eg. where it is neccessary to have a customised aspect mode in with 720/1080 sources is for 2.35:1 HIGHDEF movies where you have a Constant Height Image Home Theatre Setup..

It is essential to have the ability to vertically stretch the image height in order to remove all black bars top and bottom, so that the image being projected is returned to "true" 2.35:1 anamorphic where you have an anamophic lens (Primasonic/Isco III) in front of your projector to optically expand the 16x9 projected image horizontally.

For source inputs that come in as 480/576, you can use the CROP mode no problem at all, seeing as it horizontally stretches the image to full width, and vertically increases a 2.35:1 area of a 16x9 DVD to the point where the black bars top and bottom just about disappear (it does a beautifully clean job in in fact for SD sources)

While the RESIZE feature would allow you to vertically increase the height of a 2.35:1 HiDef image, this is Not a viable option in its current format. The Resize feature can not be applied to the individual aspect modes, seeing as this features works strictly on a per input basis (one resize covers all aspects).

Given that it also requires between 18 to 45!! key presses just to make the adjustment using the resize feature when going between 1.78:1 and 2.35:1 material (and vice versa), it's a no goer for anyone in this situation..and a Macro isn't reliable enough due to the menu design method mentioned above..
this should almost be a "set and forget" type of feature with a custom-sized aspect selectable option included in the menu for each of the inputs.


Matt.G

Hi All,

I've popped the hood of my Vantage HD, took some piccys and posted a master image shot over at the AVSFORUM gallery.

As you will see by the image.. there's ain't much in the box :) and the bulk of the box is due to all the inputs on the back (which are well spaced out).
Having an external power transformer makes it incredibly light as well (not to mention internally friendly, like a laptop).

The FAN in the middle of the box is the "noise culprit". so i assume that it wouldn't take too much effort of hunt for a fan that isn't quite a noisy (it's bugging the cr@p out of me at the moment... perhaps some internal insulation padding could also subdue it..... suggestions welcome.

Matt.G

http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphoto.php?photo=19935&cat=507

thnax Matt for the picture!

One quick Q abt the aspect/resize/re-position feature: how abt "shifting" a 2.35 within a 16:9 frame ? Does this work with HD source or is also a SD feature only ? ( I intend to shift it all the way down to get rid of the bottom black bar). Thanks.

Hi All,

I've popped the hood of my Vantage HD, took some piccys and posted a master image shot over at the AVSFORUM gallery.

As you will see by the image.. there's ain't much in the box :) and the bulk of the box is due to all the inputs on the back (which are well spaced out).
Having an external power transformer makes it incredibly light as well (not to mention internally friendly, like a laptop).

The FAN in the middle of the box is the "noise culprit". so i assume that it wouldn't take too much effort of hunt for a fan that isn't quite a noisy (it's bugging the cr@p out of me at the moment... perhaps some internal insulation padding could also subdue it..... suggestions welcome.

Matt.G

http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphoto.php?photo=19935&cat=507
Look for Nexus or Yate Loon fans. I use them in all my PC's for silent operation. It appears that can be very easily swapped out as it has a normal fan connection. However finding an effective fan, that small is going to be a task.

You could also try NMB/Panaflo/Papst fans run slowly and mounted on a fan size adaptor

http://www.hardwarereview.net/Reviews/80mm-60mm%20Fan%20Adapter/80mm%20-%2060mm%20Fan%20Adapter.htm

Is it me or does it look like theres a lot of blue patch wires on the PCB?.
Manufacturing/design problems?.

I forgot to mention, be careful about adding internal insulation to the case to lower the noise as it may also insulate the heat. Its also worth verifying wether the noise is fan air or fan case/PCB vibration when deciding how best to quieten it.

mgoldsmith, thank you for the image. I am still waiting for my VHD, but now - at last - I
believe it exists.

The exploded view of the processor in the upper right corner shows a Silicon Image
device. I cannot identify the model, but the term "PanelLink" seems to indicate that
it is a (HDMI??) transmitter or receiver. Is the Realta chip hidden beneath the (noisy)
fan in the middle?

Andylang

thnax Matt for the picture!

One quick Q abt the aspect/resize/re-position feature: how abt "shifting" a 2.35 within a 16:9 frame ? Does this work with HD source or is also a SD feature only ? ( I intend to shift it all the way down to get rid of the bottom black bar). Thanks.

Image Resize and Shift is available for each input, and each different resolution sent into each input.
So for eg. when using HDMI1 if you INPUT a 480p signal you can have a set of resize/shift settings, and if you change that INPUT res to 720p , you can have another set of resize/shift settings)....
Image Resizing and image Shifting is CAN NOT be applied to each of the aspect modes, so any changes you make to either of these 2 features will affect each and every selectable aspect mode per input, per resolution.

the default settings for SHIFT (when a signal is received) in SVideo and HDMI are :-
Horizontal : 400
Vertical : 0

PAL COMPONENT SHIFT values are set to :-
Horizontal : 263
Vertical : 21

When no signal is present the values show as 0 and 0.

The above values result in the image being perfectly centred within your screen area... the problem is that with SVideo and HDMI you can only shift the image horizontally to the LEFT,... and you can only shift the image vertically UPWARDS.. you CAN NOT shift the image to the RIGHT past the default value, nor can you shift the image DOWN passed it's default value.

I also found that when you have the image shifted up for 1 of the inputs, then select another input, when you go back to the original input there is garbage video data/image in the bottom section of the screen that is not meant to have any image detail.

There seems be something buggy with the SHIFT feature, so I guess it's something that also needs to be mentioned to Calibre. (I'm making a list of all the problems/quirks i'm experiencing, as no doubt they'll want to fix any problems asap).

Matt.G

Is it me or does it look like theres a lot of blue patch wires on the PCB?.
Manufacturing/design problems?.

i didn't want to touch anything on the inside, but they looked like wires to me, though i thought they looked as though they were adhered to the board all the way along, and not just at those black blobs. (they're very very thin).

The image shots of that SI chip didn't come out very well as the flash got in the way each and every time, but i believe that the number reads SI19031CTU.

I am also pretty sure that the realtachip is under the fan, which has a grill under it.. didn't want to take it off to have a look though.

With the lid off, you can still hear the buzz from the fan, and it's not quite as bad as when the lid is actually closed. It would seem that the sound is getting amplifed by the box itself, which is why i thought dampening the sound with some sort of foam insulation might be the way to go (or replace the fan outright, if at all possible).


Matt.G

thanks Matt for your detailed info on the shift/resize feature. So it means the resize/shift is per input per resolution ? i.e. a 480p HDMI1 in and a 1080i HDMI1 in can have different values for either feature?

From the way you describe, the shift feature is not that well implemented. Hope this is something they can easily correct via a firmware update.

Apart from this, how abt the image quality itself ? Does it do a gd job on PAL SD material ?

Here are some pictures of the guts of the Theatersync, the board inside seems to ne a Silicon Optix one piece board

Here are some more pictures

thanks Matt for your detailed info on the shift/resize feature. So it means the resize/shift is per input per resolution ? i.e. a 480p HDMI1 in and a 1080i HDMI1 in can have different values for either feature?

From the way you describe, the shift feature is not that well implemented. Hope this is something they can easily correct via a firmware update.

Apart from this, how abt the image quality itself ? Does it do a gd job on PAL SD material ?

so far the resize and shift features seem to be the only ones that i can tell are available per input per resolution.

As a test i changed the contrast to +55 when at 480p. i then changed my DVD player output to 720p and it was still on the 55+... i had thought that ALL picture control settings changed for each inputs available resolutions (and even for PAL/NTSC changes).

I have not been able to properly test the performance of this box seeing as my DLP projector is in for repairs, so i am running it though a samsany 26" LCD.
In say that, i can see an improvment to the picture, bit it's not my normal/optimal setup.

I have compared the difference between sending DVi-480p to the Vantage and having the Vantage scale it upto 1280x720, and having the Denon DVD-A11 rescale to 720p before sending it the Vantage.

The Vantage does a MUCH better job in my opinion by retaining the sharpess of the original image. The internal scaling of the Denon is clearly softening the image by comparison. (its a very clean image, but softer around the edges with less image depth)

It will be interesting to see how well it looks when my Z10000 is back as i recall that when i sent a 480p image from the DVD player and compared it to 720p from the DVD player, the 720p image from the DVD player beat it hands down.. the PJ's scaler isn't as good as the Denons...
So that indicates to me that i will see an even greater improvement by having the Vantage do all the work in upscaling to 720p rather than the DVD player...
I can't wait to get my PJ back to really test it out... and i also can't wait to see how it all looks with my 2.35 Contant Image Height setup using the Vantage (which was the main reason i decided to go with an external video processor)

Matt.G

Matt, some years ago (before quiet fans arrived) I have insulated several noisy
computers using dense dampening material on the insides of the boxes.
Metal enclosures tend to work like resonance boxes, amplifying whatever noise
that is generated inside. The important thing is to leave large enough inlet and
outlet openings for the air, thus making it possible for it to circulate. As the VHD
box - according to your description - largely is empty on the inside, there should
be enough air there to dissipate the heat from the Realta.

Andylang

Matt, I'd have thought you would need to feed an interlaced signal into the vantage to really see what its capable of as feeding progressive bypasses one of the area's of big improvements...

John.

Is it me or does it look like theres a lot of blue patch wires on the PCB?.
Manufacturing/design problems?.
Mmm, patch wires are generally a sign of a non-optimal PCB layout. It doesn't have to mean anything to the operation of the unit. When I looked at the back side of the Vantage for the first time I though it was a bit messy despite the limited number of in/outs. Compare to say the Crystalio II....

The number of green dots (solder points) on the PCB indicate there's a lot of components on the other side. Would be interesting to see but I fully understand that the owners are less keen on disecting further.

The number of green dots (solder points) on the PCB indicate there's a lot of components on the other side. Would be interesting to see but I fully understand that the owners are less keen on disecting further.

Looked more like via's for linking ground plains to me...

John.

The Vantage does a MUCH better job in my opinion by retaining the sharpess of the original image. The internal scaling of the Denon is clearly softening the image by comparison. (its a very clean image, but softer around the edges with less image depth)


What are your Sharpness and Detail Enhancement settings? The NEC TheaterSync was shipped with 50/50 as factory default. Per Andy Kromkamp of Silicon Optix, Sharpness of 50 and DE of 0 should be the bypass or neutral setting on the TS. I like DE to be around 20 when watching DVD but that brings out too much mosquito noise. Until I get my Mosquito HDMI, I have to live with DE of 0 and softer image.

--wilson

That many? Plus, via's are only holes AFAIK.

That many? Plus, via's are only holes AFAIK.

Look like they're plated through, although pretty hard to tell from that distance.

Think its a fairly common technique when you have large ground plain areas to stop them acting like capacitors at high frequencies.

John.

Is it me or does it look like theres a lot of blue patch wires on the PCB?.
Manufacturing/design problems?.
Hmmmm... Usually this is a sign of last minute changes to the design. You may find more of these patch wires underneath the PCB as well. Doesn't necessarily mean that the design is still flawed, but you would probably find that later releases of the unit will have these changes incorporated in a new PCB layout design. I've found this kind of last minute hardware rectification on some very well known brands as well - it just means that in order to get the product out as quickly as possible (and possibly to save money) the PCB has been patched rather than thrown in the bin.

It will be very intersting to see how things unfold with this unit. As usual, initial reviews tend to be favourable, but as more and more people get their hands on one, the faults and shortcomings begin to surface. I'll be very interested to see how the audio goes. It's still (Vs 1.03) the main serious bug in the iScan VP30 as far as I am concerned (even on non HDMI/HDCP sources). I'm hoping that the VHQ has this one licked as far as possible. With the still dodgy implementation of HDMI/HDCP by many manufacturers, it's a tough call.

What firmware version do you guys have on your Vantage?

I've started evaluating mine and it had Version 1.11. At this stage I'm rather unimpressed with the deinterlacing perfromance with PAL film sources (2:2). I'm sure something is not right as the Deinterlacing in my DVD Player is better (Pioneer DV-79AVi).

Aaron

Totally agree on this. On the Lumagen, there are dedicated aspect ratio for each ratio. The most important one is the 1.85 mode. Alot of DVDs are 1.85 and the only way to view them in their correct ratio is if the scaler has a button to compress them so that there is a small black bar at the top and bottom of the screen. Otherwise the image does seem a little stretched and people seem a little too thin and tall.

Also on SD, I still watch many 4:3 films/tv programs. Sometimes I want to watch in full 4:3 and other times in a semi stretched cropped mode. If I understand the Vantage manual correctly, if I adjust the stretch and crop that I want for that input in the virtual wide mode, it does it in all the other mode which means the 4:3 image is wrong as well? That is not good. Hopefully rdjam or another vantage user can confirm that?

Oliver

My interest in getting the Vantage HD had a lot to do with wanting better scaling of images, especially for Constant Height Imaging (for full screen 2.35:1 projection).

A couple of things i think all need to know about the Vantage with respect to its handling of aspect ratios is this :-

For Standard Def material (input at 480 or 576 lines) you are offered Normal, Full Screen, Crop(letterbox), Anamorphic and Virtual Wide.
In Addition to these modes, you also have a picture resize feature which allows you to change the height and width of the image you output....
However, when you change values with the RESIZE options it applies these settings to ALL aspects modes...seeing as it applied to the specific INPUT... they are not individually customizable for each aspect mode available.

AND to make matters worse, when the source input is HI-DEF (1280x720p, 1920x1080i are all i can test in HD) you not only LOSE the crop aspect option, but the other 4 aspect modes do nothing at all to manipulate the shape of the image. You can only use the RESIZE options in HI-DEF to change the aspect ratio.. which again applies to the specific INPUT not the different aspect modes.

While i see that a MASTER resize would be handy for each input, you should also be able to custom resize each aspect mode individually, in both Standard Def AND hi-def.

In this day and age where multiple source devices with various aspect ratios and image size formats are going to be used, i don't understand why the Vantage HD was not designed to have assignable memories for the inputs.

I would hope that Calibre can re-work this in a firmware update, as it's made it hard for me to see how this box will be of any benefit to anyone interested in customising their images, especially with respect to Hi-Def and 2.35:1 contant image height.

Matt.G

I agree that aspect ratio switching should hopefully be a priority on HD sources, switchable at click of button. Even though I intend to get an HTIQ setup after I move and get my new setup in place .. I would want to be able to switch aspect ratios at my whim.

Aaron, I hope you are able to figure that out. I have a ton of DVDs, just bought 22 more Superbits, and am looking forward to the Vantage/HQV magic to help them on my Ruby. While the 1080 deinterlacing is going to be a big benefit, 480 scaling/deinterlacing is just as important.

Matt, I'd have thought you would need to feed an interlaced signal into the vantage to really see what its capable of as feeding progressive bypasses one of the area's of big improvements...

John.

I'm feeding the S-Video, Component and DVI out from my Denon DVD-A11 into the Vantage for testing the differences.
The problem is that my primary viewing device (Sharp DLP XV-Z10000) is in for repairs so i'm stuck with using my "daytime viewing device" which is a Samsung 26" LCD. The LCD has a lof of it's own problems being an LCD, so until i get back to the device i know back to front, i'm holding back on my final assessment of the device

But it does look very promising, I am VERY surprised to see such little different between these 3 inputs from the same device via the Sammy.
SVideo really comes to the party showing the biggest improvement, and quite frankly if it wasn't for the slight green shift when using DVI, I can't see all that much of a difference between the 2.. i think the colours via DVI are a little less smudgey, but my Denon has a slight green tinge via DVI (does anyone know how to address this?)
The REAL test will be when i have my PJ back and can see this stuff blown up to 100".

I've run through some of the Optix HQV DVD and the jaggies test, etc and there's a sequence on the race car track with the 100's of seats along the side-line.
The processor locks onto it quick as a flash via the interlaced signals, and the S-Video was so close to matching componment and the already de-interlaced DVI that it wasn't funny.

COLOUR, CONTRAST, BRIGHTNESS and SHARPNESS are all initially set to the middle marker, which is '50'. i have not found a need really deviate too much from these points, but know that once i set things up properly i will have to tweak them, seeing as component inputs blow out the brightness to some extent, at least compared to SVideo and HDMI.

One interesting test which i need to play with more is the MPEG Noise Reduction Setting. This has a range of 1-8, and i have to say it does quite a job on the image.
I cranked it all the way to 8 and watched some Star Ship Troops Region 1 (which after all these years is not as good an image as first thought... but it is a DVD5 with a 2 hour movie, so i still find that impressive and LOVE the movie ...great music source :)
Anyway, it seems that the mpeg noise reduction knows what it's doing for the most part as i couldn't see it interfering all that much with the image. Close up shots did tend to "animate" the look of a person's face a little by smoothing out the image and losing hi-end detail structure.

Temporal Noise Reduction is set to LOW by default.. Haven't gone in too deep with this one just yet.

Motion Adaptive De-interlace does not appear for me in the menus with my interlaced inputs (have mentioned this to Calibre).. but i don't see this as a problem, as the point of this box was to have it de-interlace for you.

Hardware De-Interlace is also missing as a menu option.

The one feature that i am most saddened to see omitted is the Temporal Noise Reduction Split screen demo.. this is suppose to be accessable by the "?"question mark page of details. it ain't there on this version (even thought the on-line manual i have states it is a feature).

Each input defaults to an Overscan of 5% until changed (settings are 0, 2.5, 5, 7,5,10).
It's kinda cool to watch if resize the image from 5% to 0% (sad i know :)

My Firmware version is 1.11

The OSD for the details of the incoming signal are a fantastic feature.
I discovered that via S-Video my PAL signal is coming in at 50.8Hz, the DVD's component comes in at 50.4Hz and the DVI is fixed at 50Hz. I was not aware that PAL inputs were anything but 50Hz.

I also tried sending a 720p signal from my HTPC using DVI at 75HZ and the calibre detected it as 60Hz... want to play with this some more as i'd like to 1080 out working from my PC (it tells me the settings available from my DVI pc card are 24Hz-Int, 25Hz-Int, 30Hz-Int, 50Hz and 60Hz)... seems to barf on the first 3, so I'll be looking into it as it's most likely a glitch with the card).
My DVI PC card also knows/displays that it's in negotions with a VantageHD as it's obviously sending this info back to my PC.

OH and i also disconnected the Vantage Box from my TV and feed DVI straight into it as another test.. damn it makes a different. The image direct from my DVD player at 480p (was still using Region1 Starship Troopers at this stage) to the
Sammy looked soft colourless and old... Via the Vantage it takes it to a new level of excellent with sharp details, great image depth and vibrant colours.

There does not appear to be a "pass-thru" mode for HDMI on this box.. which i thought someone mentioned there was... can't find it in the manual.


Matt.G

I've run through some of the Optix HQV DVD and the jaggies test, etc and there's a sequence on the race car track with the 100's of seats along the side-line.
The processor locks onto it quick as a flash via the interlaced signals, and the S-Video was so close to matching componment and the already de-interlaced DVI that it wasn't funny.



Most of the HQV disk is 3:2, deinterlacing this is very easy. I noticed you are in Australia, so performance with 2:2 PAL material is very important. If you have a copy of 'The Incredibles' in PAL then have a look at the start of Chapter 9 as the airplane flys into the distance. The wings are badly jagged.

I don't have the Motion Adaptive De-interlace options either and I'm wondering if this is why I'm dissastified with the deinterlacing?

Temporal Noise Reductions works well, but even on Low causes noticable blurring with fast motion. It would be good to get a settting of about 0.5

On the Plus side the Interface is good and the processor has been rock solid for me with a variety of inputs and outputs, including DVi from my DVD-79AVi (Pioneer DV-989AVi in Australia). I like the Contrast Enhance options.

I should add that I'm testing this unit over RGBHV at 1920x1200 into a Sony GDM-FW900 High Resolution CRT monitor. THe CRT monitor is completely analog so I only see what comes in, it is a very revealing setup.

Aaron

including DVi from my DVD-79AVi (Pioneer DV-989AVi in Australia).

Did u mean 480i/576i ? The pio has HDMI no DVI.


I should add that I'm testing this unit over RGBHV at 1920x1200 into a Sony
U mean a Pio HDMI in VHD and RGBHV out to Sony ? :confused: (I'm sure I mis-read ur post... this can't be possible... )

Appologies I have been using the HDMI output from the DVD Player. When I was testing this I was using it with a Pioneer Plasma.

Now I'm continuing my testing with the Sony Monitor over RGBHV and you are correct, I cannot use the HDMI input on the VHD so I am using Component. I notice no difference in the performance of the de-interlacer from 576i over HDMI (Plasma Viewing) and 576i over Component into the Sony monitor.

Aaron

I've just heard back from Calibre regarding one the Picture Control bugs and they are working to a fix right now.

Colour settings from previously selected input accidently inherited by current input
When you make changes to the picture control for brightness, contrast, etc, they are meant to be for the input currently active (lets say input1).
But when you then select another input (say input2). it seems to "inherit" these settings from input1.
The only way to FORCE input 2 to use input2's picture controls for brightness, etc is to go into the picture menu while input2 is onscreen/active, and change one of the values by a factor of 1, and then take it back to the setting you are suppose to be on.

While these settings are all set to default "50" it doesn't appear to cause any problems with my setup.

Matt.G

Exellent - glad to hear they are doing a fix. That was the main issue I was left with.

I've just heard back from Calibre regarding one the Picture Control bugs and they are working to a fix right now.

Colour settings from previously selected input accidently inherited by current input
When you make changes to the picture control for brightness, contrast, etc, they are meant to be for the input currently active (lets say input1).
But when you then select another input (say input2). it seems to "inherit" these settings from input1.
The only way to FORCE input 2 to use input2's picture controls for brightness, etc is to go into the picture menu while input2 is onscreen/active, and change one of the values by a factor of 1, and then take it back to the setting you are suppose to be on.

While these settings are all set to default "50" it doesn't appear to cause any problems with my setup.

Matt.G

Exellent - glad to hear they are doing a fix. That was the main issue I was left with..

BTW if you haven't checked out Picture-In-Picture, have a play with it and make sure you CHANGE the position of the window.. then turn off PIP with the remote button, activate it again to see where it positions the window, then check your menu setting for it to see if it matches up correct.... mine be broke'ded and won't do what it's told

Matt.G

It would be great if they could do a quick, interim, fix for remote position memory also, so we can use macros to mitigate some of its current one touch programming deficiencies.

It would be great if they could do a quick, interim, fix for remote position memory also, so we can use macros to mitigate some of its current one touch programming deficiencies.

I wonder if there is a way to issue a direct command via infrared, rather than using "macros" - (ie a-la-RS232) ?

Looks like MY Vantage HD has arrived at my dealer's. :)

Just got a call from my dealer to come and get it. I shall have it up and running in a few hours. I will report from my low tech, layman's, perspective on how it goes. :)

I wonder if there is a way to issue a direct command via infrared, rather than using "macros" - (ie a-la-RS232) ?

I hope so. That would save a lot of time .. though I would think if that they had that functionality programmed already they would have it on the remote, unless its something they havent updated yet.

I hope so. That would save a lot of time .. though I would think if that they had that functionality programmed already they would have it on the remote, unless its something they havent updated yet.

It would make it nice and easy for a Harmony or other custom remote to have a set of custom buttons for resolutions, aspect ratio, etc.

I got quite used to those bottons on the JVC/Faroudja 1010. I'll check it out for what it's worth..

Is anyone else trying to use this unit with a Sony DVP-NS975V DVD player at 480i thru the HDMI output???

I tried this and all I get is what looks like a completely combed thru image horizontally, almost like it's stripping out half the lines:eek:!!!

If not, anyone else using any DVD player that outputs 480i HDMI like the Pio Elite 59 or 79 avi???

Please give me a report of any issues...thanks!!!

BTW, Just for grins I tried sending the 480i image from the Sony 975 direct to my Ruby and......OMG:eek: It looks simply AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The calibre unit has some stiff competition. I think the Ruby has a much better scaler/de-interlacer than previously thought. At least for 480i and 1080i sources.

If anyone else happens to have a Ruby and a 480i capable HDMI DVD player, please give it a try and let me know what you think (via PM of course, I want to keep this thread on track).

I had no problems with the VHD running from the Pioneer DV-989AVi (Elite 79 in the US) at both 576i and 480i over HDMI.

The display was a Pioneer PDP-42MXE10 (PDP-425 CMX in the US).

Aaron

Just got the Vantage setup. Really easy setup. Light.

Just got in SW III, via fireball/777 ES .. amazing picture.

Will post more in a few. :)

Initial impression on SW III is that the Vantage fills the image up whether in dark or bright scenes. Without the Vantage I felt like I was always having to choose one way or the other.

With the Vantage it feels to me like I dont need to switch modes, that I can get them both from the same settings. The image is amazing. Clean and crisp. No surprise here but much much better than 777 via component to Ruby, or from Samsung upped to 1080i via DVI to Ruby.

I havent had time to tweak it too much, or to try anything else .. have just been running in there looking at pictures .. but I will try to be more specific with those details .. and will try some D-VHS and HD cable tonight. :)

Is anyone else trying to use this unit with a Sony DVP-NS975V DVD player at 480i thru the HDMI output???

I tried this and all I get is what looks like a completely combed thru image horizontally, almost like it's stripping out half the lines:eek:!!!

If not, anyone else using any DVD player that outputs 480i HDMI like the Pio Elite 59 or 79 avi???

Please give me a report of any issues...thanks!!!

No sure how much commonality the VHD and TheaterSync share in the HDMI/HDCP area. NEC and Silicon Optix are aware of a problem with 480i over HDMI and are working on a fix. I'm having problem with HD-Tivo -> TheaterSync -> Ruby @ 480i.

--wilson

BTW, Just for grins I tried sending the 480i image from the Sony 975 direct to my Ruby and......OMG:eek: It looks simply AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The calibre unit has some stiff competition. I think the Ruby has a much better scaler/de-interlacer than previously thought. At least for 480i and 1080i sources.

If anyone else happens to have a Ruby and a 480i capable HDMI DVD player, please give it a try and let me know what you think (via PM of course, I want to keep this thread on track).

LEVESQUE is one who has a ruby and had previously commented how good it looks when fed a 480i signal directly from a pioneer 79avi.

If my memory is not failing me, he is testing a new scaler and has initially commented on the improvement of using the new scaler over straight 480i.

Motion Adaptive De-interlace does not appear for me in the menus with my interlaced inputs

I don't have the Motion Adaptive De-interlace options either and I'm wondering if this is why I'm dissastified with the deinterlacing?


Is this motion adaptive something in addition to "per pixel multi-angle aperture-adjusted motion compensated", as they say in advertising?

Just received my Vantage also. It was easy to setup but I am having some severe problems and any help would appreciate it.
I have the Vantage hooked up directly to my Sharp 45 inch GX LCD at 1080p. I use a HDMI to DVI cable to connect the Vantage to my LCD. The inputs are Directv's HD-TIVO via HDMI. Kenwood Sovereign DVD player via component and a Xbox 360 via component.

The DVD player looks very good and has no problems. The problems are with the Xbox360 and the HD-Tivo. The HD-Tivo has a hard time establishing a good sync with the Vantage. The screen keeps flashing a picture on and off. Every so often, it locks on for a good picture but the rest of the time, it just doesnt want to lock on. That whole flashing thing is extremely annoying. For the few times that it did lock, if I changed the resolution from 720p to 1080i (or vice versa) on the TIVO unit then it will lose the synch and go back into the unstoppable flashing.

Another problem that came up was that during my setup in the menu option, the screen suddenly changed so that the right side of my screen, I have this weird blue tint. It is more noticeable with the Xbox360, some of the colors will not properly display. I reconnected all the cables and reset the Vantage unit but this problem still lingers. Check out pics!

More pictures... Notice in pic1, all the writing on the right side of the screen is blue...

I had no problems with the VHD running from the Pioneer DV-989AVi (Elite 79 in the US) at both 576i and 480i over HDMI.

The display was a Pioneer PDP-42MXE10 (PDP-425 CMX in the US).

Aaron

Excellent - seems to confirm that the HDMI issue I saw was an implementation issue with the Denon

Congrats, Catdaddy!

Just got the Vantage setup. Really easy setup. Light.

Just got in SW III, via fireball/777 ES .. amazing picture.

Will post more in a few. :)

Initial impression on SW III is that the Vantage fills the image up whether in dark or bright scenes. Without the Vantage I felt like I was always having to choose one way or the other.

With the Vantage it feels to me like I dont need to switch modes, that I can get them both from the same settings. The image is amazing. Clean and crisp. No surprise here but much much better than 777 via component to Ruby, or from Samsung upped to 1080i via DVI to Ruby.

I havent had time to tweak it too much, or to try anything else .. have just been running in there looking at pictures .. but I will try to be more specific with those details .. and will try some D-VHS and HD cable tonight. :)

Motion Adaptive De-interlace does not appear for me in the menus with my interlaced inputs


Is this motion adaptive something in addition to "per pixel multi-angle aperture-adjusted motion compensated", as they say in advertising?

I don't think there is an option *not* to have motion adaptive - it just does it

The DVD player looks very good and has no problems. The problems are with the Xbox360 and the HD-Tivo. The HD-Tivo has a hard time establishing a good sync with the Vantage. The screen keeps flashing a picture on and off. Every so often, it locks on for a good picture but the rest of the time, it just doesnt want to lock on. That whole flashing thing is extremely annoying. For the few times that it did lock, if I changed the resolution from 720p to 1080i (or vice versa) on the TIVO unit then it will lose the synch and go back into the unstoppable flashing.

Have you tried HDMI/DVI adaptor? Some equipment struggle with HDMI (ie Denon) linking, so DVI has worked well - see the issue I had in an earlier post.

Don't know about the blue - never experienced anything like that...

Can somebody try 1080i and 720p over the SVGA input ?

I use a MyHD card in my HTPC and want to have the Vantage to process these signal.

However the Vantage HD brochure only specifies 1280x1024 VESA as maximum resolution on the SVGA input

Thanks
Rob

Abbas,

Try making sure that your component cables from your X360 are on snugly to your Vantage. I was getting no video from my D-VHS deck via component .. but after messing with the component cables at the back of the Vantage all was well.

I hope that works for you. Sorry, was dead tired last night .. so ended up trying a little media then passed out. Baby woke me up again this morning, so here I am. :)

Can somebody try 1080i and 720p over the SVGA input ?

I use a MyHD card in my HTPC and want to have the Vantage to process these signal.

However the Vantage HD brochure only specifies 1280x1024 VESA as maximum resolution on the SVGA input

Thanks
Rob

Robbo - the 720p will work on SVGA, if you get your timings right (see the HTPC guide). For 1080i you'll need a DVI card on the PC.

I had no problems with the VHD running from the Pioneer DV-989AVi (Elite 79 in the US) at both 576i and 480i over HDMI.

The display was a Pioneer PDP-42MXE10 (PDP-425 CMX in the US).

Aaron

Thanks Aaron. I picked up a 59avi myself last night and tried it. All is fine using this player at 480i HDMI. I tried the Sony again this morning and it still combs like every other line is missing. It does work fine when I go direct to the Ruby though:rolleyes: And I must say the image is utterly amazing this way:eek:

I think what's happening is the Sony is sending the pure signal over it's HDMI output right off the disc!!! It seems as if the Ruby was designed around this DVD player for 480i HDMI. The motion is smooth as silk with no judder/stutter, it is more detailed and 3-D and the colors are more saturated than any image I have gotten from DVD on the Ruby:confused: The 59avi was a close second, but not quite as detailed, etc. I think that player is putting out the standard 480i/60 thru it's HDMI and that's also why it's working with the VHD and the Sony isn't.

If anyone out else out there has a Sony DVP-NS975V DVD player and a Ruby I eagerly await your impressions using 480i HDMI into the Ruby. I am utterly speachless at this point:eek:

I do have some more testing with the VHD to make any final conclusions.

No sure how much commonality the VHD and TheaterSync share in the HDMI/HDCP area. NEC and Silicon Optix are aware of a problem with 480i over HDMI and are working on a fix. I'm having problem with HD-Tivo -> TheaterSync -> Ruby @ 480i.

--wilson

Wilson,

Does it look like the image has been combed thru with a rake and that every other line is missing from it???

LEVESQUE is one who has a ruby and had previously commented how good it looks when fed a 480i signal directly from a pioneer 79avi.

If my memory is not failing me, he is testing a new scaler and has initially commented on the improvement of using the new scaler over straight 480i.

Can you point me to that post? I'll have to check out his impressions. Thanks for the tip:)

Wilson,

Does it look like the image has been combed thru with a rake and that every other line is missing from it???

My failure mode is the HD-Tivo thinks there's no HDCP and blanks out. NEC/SO already had a fix for it in the 2/28 firmware but that fix introduced judder. Your problem doesn't sound like the exact same thing but might be related.

Thanks Wilson. I don't look at mine as if it's a problem though;)!!!

Have you tried HDMI/DVI adaptor? Some equipment struggle with HDMI (ie Denon) linking, so DVI has worked well - see the issue I had in an earlier post.

Don't know about the blue - never experienced anything like that...

I will have to buy a HDMI>DVI>HDMI cable tonight and play with it.

I dont know what is causing the blue writing. It was not there the first time I hooked it up.

Dave. I was using a Pio 79AVi directly to the Ruby at first, and the picture was surprisingly good. But now, I'm using a Gennum VXP scaler with it and the PQ is alot better. I'm sending 480i over HDMI to the Gennum and then 1080p out to the Ruby. So I'm completely bypassing the Ruby internal scaler.

With the Gennum, the picture is sharper and cleaner. Way less noise. Using the Gennum made me realize that the Sony internal scaler was introducing some artefacts and noise.

I was able to try a pre-production Realta scaler also with the Gennum and to my eyes the Gennum was better with the Ruby. So it will stay in my system for a while...

Thanks for the info LEVESQUE.

I tried a 59avi direct and then thru the VHD. Direct seemed to be best, but I haven't done a whole lot with the VHD yet due to time constraints.

The best image, even better than the 59avi direct, was the Sony 975 DVD at 480i HDMI. It was remarkably clean the best I have seen yet. If there's any way you could do a side by side of your gennum and the 975 that would be great:) They are clearing them out at Tweeter and elsewhere for about $150:eek:!!! I bought two with one as a backup because they're so good with the Ruby:D

I saw this listing on Videogon http://cgi.videogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?procscal&1147481431&class&3&4&
It said to email for price and I did. It is $1,499 delivered. I asked who he was and if he had them in stock. He said that he was an installer and purchased them through www.cinelight.com who is an authorized reseller. Cinelight would ship them to the purchaser when they arrived. He said that he will not have them until April, but he was taking pre-orders. I asked how that worked and he said that you need to pre-pay in full in advance. I don't know about you, but this sounds a bit too good to be true.

Steve

$1499 is less than dealer pricing sounds very very suspicious

Yeah, that doesnt sound good. I like the prepay part of it, too. Sounds like a nice scam. :)

Dave, I am going to have to get me one of those Sony HDMI players. Ill check out a Tweeter tomorrow, and track one down.

Last transaction from that guy June 05. Also has the Vantage at 15 lbs. Its more like 5 lbs, I think. That thing is LIGHT.

STAY AWAY! Though I can confirm Cinelight is the distributor....$1499 is WAY below dealer cost on these. I know this for a strong fact as I get about the best pricing out there. Heck my demo model cost quite a bit more than that.

It's a hoax.

I turned the unit on today (without touching any of the cables) and the xbox360 problem had disappeared. For the present time, I am using the component out on the HD-TIVO unit until I can get some cables.

The pictures looks very good. Very clean and almost 3-D like. So far, I am very please with the unit. One thing that I was not very happy with was the packaging of the unit. They used cheap styrofoam to pack the unit. The styrofoam was pretty much crushed when I received it. The unit itself, once properly set up, does a beautiful job.

Abbas

Hello guys,

before the TV panel gets destroyed again, i would like some help (if anyone has some information for me). As you remember I hooked up the DVDO Scaler a while ago and put 1080i as an output on my Sharp 45" GD-1 Model. Thats the European model which does accept the 1080p 60 only.

So I will now replace the DVDO Scaler with the Vantage HD (this or next week).

I will be running the XBOX 360 (US Version NTSC) and my PAL / NTSC Progressive Scan DVD Player. Pioneer 757 Ai. These will go into the scaler via component and will be output (thats my plan) onto the Gefen Box (with Oelbach high quality 5* cables HDMI -> DVI) where i have 4 DVI inputs. That thing goes then straight forward to my Sharp which does the real 1080p. Thats my plan !

I guess my dealer sets that Vantage already only to output 1080p and sets it perm to 60 (59.xx) hz, right ? I just dont want to get the Sharp Panel destroyed again. It looks like that happened really when i threw 1080i on it the last time over the DVDO.

Do you people have any suggestions ? Anything I need to know before running this "mission" ? :-)

Any help is appreciated. Cant wait to see the xbox 360 running on this......

By the way, i am from Germany :)

Wessi


Update: ABBAS, *lol*, after passing through tons of posts, i found out that you have my TV :-) (the same). Can you tell me the settings you changed or put on your device that my dealer can set them ? Am i right with perm setting 59.xx hz and lock it diretly to 1080p ? Or can i just hook it up with the TV and even use the menue and configure it myself? How did you do this ?

One thing that I was not very happy with was the packaging of the unit. They used cheap styrofoam to pack the unit. The styrofoam was pretty much crushed when I received it.
Abbas


I received my unit Monday, I have not had a chance to set it up, but like you the packaging was destroyed. Little bits of Styrofoam all over the place. The box literally fell apart when I cut the 4 inches of tape holding it closed. Hopefully Calibre will read this thread an udate to a closed cell foam.

Ditto here. The package and foam were pretty chewed up. They need to change the type of foam they ship it in and double box the unit.

Mine also had small scrapes and scratches on the bottom and back where the grey aluminum is.

Did anyone else's have that?

Ditto here. The package and foam were pretty chewed up. They need to change the type of foam they ship it in and double box the unit.

Mine also had small scrapes and scratches on the bottom and back where the grey aluminum is.

Did anyone else's have that?

Same here. Styrafoam was not sturdy type and broken apart upon opening. There were also cosmetic, but not terrible, scratches on several sides of the unit, including the front.

Seems to work fairly well in my limited trials last night. Impressive image quality though thus far. Hopefully more later.

I wanted to test 480i into the Vantage using the Key Digital SDI1080 SDI-->DVI converter. I have an SDI modified Panny RP91. However, in "Pass through" mode on the KD, no input is seen by the Vantage. When I change the KD output to 480p (which uses its own de-interlacer), the Vantage locks on fine and displays a very nice image, but I want to use 480i. Has anyone tried this and/or gotten this to work?

Alan

Alan, I think that may be a similar issue to what I'm experiencing with the Sony 975. I'm starting to think the Pioneer players fudge with the signal a little to go thru HDMI at 480i. I think maybe the KD unit and the Sony 975 are true 480i YCbCr pass-thru's.

Can your display take in direct 480i thru HDMI? If so, try it direct and make sure it's not a problem with the KD box.

Ditto here. The package and foam were pretty chewed up. They need to change the type of foam they ship it in and double box the unit.

Mine also had small scrapes and scratches on the bottom and back where the grey aluminum is.

Did anyone else's have that?

Same here, Dave...The box looked like it had traveled by camel for 3000 miles over rough terrain, the styrofoam was all but disintegrated, and there are lots of light scratches all over the unit (including the front panel). If I didn't know better, I would have thought that they sent a used unit...very disappointing first impression. :(

Then I had (and still have) HDMI connectivity problems. Where is the place where I can change the HDMI settings? Even though I had very little time to play last night, I looked for the HDMI control and didn't find it.

I finally got OTA HD from my HTPC's MyHD card, and I watched Boston Legal in HD and two episodes of Scrubs in SD, and I have to say, even without a lot of tweaking, Scrubs looked better than any SD broadcast signal I have ever seen! Boston Legal also looked very rich and lush in HD, but the colors or gamma were a bit off, something that I had recently corrected while calibrating my Ruby a couple of weeks ago. I'm sure I can dial it in, but the colors were a bit too pink out of the box, despite the fact that I did nothing to affect them with the Vantage (I was trying to keep the Vantage as neutral as possible).

Unfortunately I won't have much time until the weekend to do any serious tweaking, but hopefully I can find the time to settle some of the HDMI connectivity issues before then.

BTW, I started a Vantage-HD bug report thread, so anyone who finds software bugs please report them here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=656391

Alan, I think that may be a similar issue to what I'm experiencing with the Sony 975. I'm starting to think the Pioneer players fudge with the signal a little to go thru HDMI at 480i. I think maybe the KD unit and the Sony 975 are true 480i YCbCr pass-thru's.

Can your display take in direct 480i thru HDMI? If so, try it direct and make sure it's not a problem with the KD box.

Dave,

I'm afraid neither my HD2K nor my Panny plasma (no DVI or HDMI) can take a 480i direct signal, so I have no way to test the KD separately. Has anyone gotten 480i to work direct from a DVI/HDMI player into the Vantage?

The box mine came in wasn't to bad. The foam was all hacked up. Unit is in great shape no scratches just plenty of my finger prints :) They should double box it.
Now if i can get the picture/ resolution to go to 1920x1080 HDMI output I can go to the next stage.

Alan, I got it to work with a Pioneer 59avi and others reported it working with a 79avi too.

If you'd like to send that KD unit to me to test on my system since I can do 480i direct to my Ruby I'd be happy to do that for you. I was wanting to test that unit out anyway myself and maybe this is a way we can help each other.

With Fedex or UPS ground it should only be one day shipping to me from NY. You pay to send it to me and I'll pay to send it back:) I do have access to an SDI DVD player also. If you get it out as late as tomorrow I'll have the weekend to test it out.

In the interim you could just use 480p out of your DVD direct to the VHD, which is what it sounds like you're doing anyway.

Let me know via the email address below.

Same here, Dave...The box looked like it had traveled by camel for 3000 miles over rough terrain, the styrofoam was all but disintegrated, and there are lots of light scratches all over the unit (including the front panel). If I didn't know better, I would have thought that they sent a used unit...very disappointing first impression. :(


:rolleyes:

Alan, I got it to work with a Pioneer 59avi and others reported it working with a 79avi too.

If you'd like to send that KD unit to me to test on my system since I can do 480i direct to my Ruby I'd be happy to do that for you. I was wanting to test that unit out anyway myself and maybe this is a way we can help each other.

With Fedex or UPS ground it should only be one day shipping to me from NY. You pay to send it to me and I'll pay to send it back:) I do have access to an SDI DVD player also. If you get it out as late as tomorrow I'll have the weekend to test it out.

In the interim you could just use 480p out of your DVD direct to the VHD, which is what it sounds like you're doing anyway.

Let me know via the email address below.

Thanks Dave. Good to know that it works with 480i. I think I will try to troubleshoot first. If I can't get it to work, that sounds like a good plan to eliminate the KD as the culprit.

Sounds good Alan. Let me know if you need my assistance and I'd be happy to do it:)!!! Keep us updated.

Regarding the Vantage HD, can it output 1080i? I didnt see that option on the output settings.

Abbas

What settings in the "configr menu" does everyone have? The HDMI AUDIO INPUT there is no Receiver or Repeater option on mine. How do you shut off the audio in HDMI? I guess mine has to be on the Receiver mode cause i'm using DVI/HDMI cable

What settings in the "configr menu" does everyone have? The HDMI AUDIO INPUT there is no Receiver or Repeater option on mine. How do you shut off the audio in HDMI? I guess mine has to be on the Receiver mode cause i'm using DVI/HDMI cable

On the last menu down the left on the bottom - "Configuration Menu" - the fifth item down within that screen is the "HDMI Input Mode" - this is where you choose between the two modes.

To shut off HDMI audio for an HDMI source, go to the fifth item down the left on main menu - "Input Connections" - and select the source input you want to change (ie HDMI 1 or HDMI2) - choose an audio source other than HDMI (ie "Analog 1"), something you don't plan to use.

The Non-HDMI inputs let you disable Audio completely as a menu choice, but the HDMI inputs require you to select an alternate input, thus disabling HDMI audio.

Chris,

I hope that worked for you. :)

Chris - make sure that you have actually set up one of the HDMI input sources, if the HDMI mode is "greyed out" or not selectable.

Thanks for all the great info from owners so far!

It's a real pity that they had to put a screaming (40mm?) fan on the chip, when there are more silent options available (including cheap larger surface area heatsinks and heatpipes).

This little thing alone can be a deal killer to some.

Sure, it's easy to swap it yourself, but that totally and absolutely voids any warranty.

I for one would not like to open up my new scaler the 1st day I get it, just to replace a fan and lose the warranty. It's a very expensive fan exchange, if the scalers starts to malfunction later on and needs to be taken back for a repair :)

I wish the company would consider changing the thermal material, heatsink and fan in the next manufacturing batch.

Regarding the fan, is there any tamper-proof seal on the unit's case? If not, I wouldn't hesitate to put a better fan/heatsink on it from one of those quiet PC websites. People open their TiVo's all the time to add drives and fans and can always restore to factory default if other warranty issues arise. I agree with your point, though, at annoyance at mfgrs who just don't "get it" when it comes to fan noise. Large and slow (quiet) = small and fast (loud).

Alan, I got it to work with a Pioneer 59avi and others reported it working with a 79avi too.

In the interim you could just use 480p out of your DVD direct to the VHD, which is what it sounds like you're doing anyway.


Dave,

I emailed KD and explained the problem with the SDI pass through. Basically, the response (below) suggests the possibility that the Vantage may not have 480i DVI (not HDMI) support. Do you know who to contact at Calibre who would be knowledgable?

-------------------------------------------

You may simply ask them 'Does it support 480i DVI ( not HDMI )?'. It is basically '1440x480i , 27Mhz video clock'.

Thank you,


----- Original Message -----
From: Alan M. Friedman
To: Brett Kang
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: Digital Blaster pass through issue


Brett,

Thanks for the reply. The scaler was just released and specifically supports 480i through its HDMI input. Maybe there is some nuance to compatibility I am not aware of. Is there anything you can add to your response, questions for the folks at Calibre, things to try?

Thanks.
Alan


At 10:30 AM 3/16/2006, you wrote:

Hi Alan,

I think your scaler doesn't accept 480i DVI signal.

There is no 480i specification in DVI. It is newly added to HDMI specification. Chances are that your scaler deosn't recognize 480i DVI format.

You need to contact your scaler company to verify this. I hope through scaler firmware upgrade you may enjoy 480i passthrough.

Thank you,

Brett Kang
Key Digital Systems
521 East 3rd Street
Mt. Vernon , NY
10553
Tel : 914-667-9700 ext.243
Fax: 914-668-8666

Regarding the fan, is there any tamper-proof seal on the unit's case? If not, I wouldn't hesitate to put a better fan/heatsink on it from one of those quiet PC websites. People open their TiVo's all the time to add drives and fans and can always restore to factory default if other warranty issues arise. I agree with your point, though, at annoyance at mfgrs who just don't "get it" when it comes to fan noise. Large and slow (quiet) = small and fast (loud).

The only issue with large and slow is the mounting. This isn't a pc motherboard with standard socket mounting options. It would have to be something custom. From what I can tell the fan mount was made for just that size fan.

Dave,

I emailed KD and explained the problem with the SDI pass through. Basically, the response (below) suggests the possibility that the Vantage may not have 480i DVI (not HDMI) support. Do you know who to contact at Calibre who would be knowledgable?

-------------------------------------------

You may simply ask them 'Does it support 480i DVI ( not HDMI )?'. It is basically '1440x480i , 27Mhz video clock'.

Thank you,


----- Original Message -----
From: Alan M. Friedman
To: Brett Kang
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: Digital Blaster pass through issue


Brett,

Thanks for the reply. The scaler was just released and specifically supports 480i through its HDMI input. Maybe there is some nuance to compatibility I am not aware of. Is there anything you can add to your response, questions for the folks at Calibre, things to try?

Thanks.
Alan


At 10:30 AM 3/16/2006, you wrote:

Hi Alan,

I think your scaler doesn't accept 480i DVI signal.

There is no 480i specification in DVI. It is newly added to HDMI specification. Chances are that your scaler deosn't recognize 480i DVI format.

You need to contact your scaler company to verify this. I hope through scaler firmware upgrade you may enjoy 480i passthrough.

Thank you,

Brett Kang
Key Digital Systems
521 East 3rd Street
Mt. Vernon , NY
10553
Tel : 914-667-9700 ext.243
Fax: 914-668-8666

Alan,

You can try Ed Hart. He is an authorized rep for Calibre here in the USA. PM me for his number. I don't want to post it without his permission.

Thanks:)!!!

480i support isn't in the DVI specs. 480p is the lowest supported res per spec.

That was one advantage of HDMI over DVI, you could take the 480i signal out of the DVD player, and deinterlace/scale externally.

Cheers,

On the last menu down the left on the bottom - "Configuration Menu" - the fifth item down within that screen is the "HDMI Input Mode" - this is where you choose between the two modes.

To shut off HDMI audio for an HDMI source, go to the fifth item down the left on main menu - "Input Connections" - and select the source input you want to change (ie HDMI 1 or HDMI2) - choose an audio source other than HDMI (ie "Analog 1"), something you don't plan to use.

The Non-HDMI inputs let you disable Audio completely as a menu choice, but the HDMI inputs require you to select an alternate input, thus disabling HDMI audio.Hi rdjam,
On the "Configuration Menu" where the "HDMI Input Mode" mine does not have for option: HDMI 1 or HDMI2 mine has (i'm at work right know) something that says:

HDMI and some wording (i guess it's the one if you want the audio & video)
2 ch
4 + lfe
5.1
6.1
7.1
I have chosen 5.1 option.

Hi rdjam,
On the "Configuration Menu" where the "HDMI Input Mode" mine does not have for option: HDMI 1 or HDMI2 mine has (i'm at work right know) something that says:

HDMI and some wording (i guess it's the one if you want the audio & video)
2 ch
4 + lfe
5.1
6.1
7.1
I have chosen 5.1 option.
Right...same here with software version 1.1.1

BUT, on the Calibre site I read this:
There is a bug in firmware revision 1.1 whereby the ability to select between various
HDMI audio modes does not work and causes Vantage-HD to crash.
This can be worked around by selecting the first option on the drop-down menu if you
require Receiver mode and by selecting the second option on the drop-down menu if
you require Repeater mode.
Note that these work-around settings contradict the menu items shown in v1.1
firmware.
Do not select any option from the drop-down list other than items 1 or 2.
Does anyone know what that means?

The best I could figure from the wording is that the menu item that is listed as "HDMI input mode" (though I think mine reads something more like "HDMI audio mode" or something like that) has an incorrect list of choices attached to it. The list attached is a list of audio modes (like you mentioned), but in actuality only the first 2 choices work. If you choose the first choice (whatever its label) you will be in Receiver mode and if you choose the second item in the list (whatever it is labeled) you will get Repeater mode. All other choices are invalid and will cause the Vantage to crash. Does this make sense? Can anyone obtain a better interpretation of the info I have quoted from Calibre? ;)

I've been waiting until tomorrow when a software update is available before trying something that I have no idea works or not.

It crashed on me when I tried the other settings in that menu, that I can confirm:D!!!

480i support isn't in the DVI specs. 480p is the lowest supported res per spec.

That was one advantage of HDMI over DVI, you could take the 480i signal out of the DVD player, and deinterlace/scale externally.

Cheers,

True but the lumagen accepts 480i on its DVI inputs. I was able to connect a STB with HDMI out to the lumagen DVI and it worked.

-- Rich

Rich,

THat's either an HDMI input terminated with a DVI connector, or it is technically out of spec.

Cheers,

480i support isn't in the DVI specs. 480p is the lowest supported res per spec.

That was one advantage of HDMI over DVI, you could take the 480i signal out of the DVD player, and deinterlace/scale externally.

Cheers,

John,

I agree, but what they did was double the 720 Horizontal resolution to 1440 to make it 1440 x 480 to get it within specs of DVI. A cool trick, but no longer needed with HDMI now.

That appears to be what Key Digital is doing with their Blaster SDI-DVI device and it's pass-thru mode. Sounds like what Lumagen did too.

Chris - make sure that you have actually set up one of the HDMI input sources, if the HDMI mode is "greyed out" or not selectable.rdjam,
This is how i have my setup:

On the inputs i have s- video coming out of my pre-amp and going into s1 on VHD

And i have componet coming out of my pre-amp and going into comp1 on VHD

Then on output i'm using 4 meter Monster DVI/HDMI to connect my HDTV
Mitsubishi WL-82913 LCOS 1080P (which i still can't get to work) only default works.
On the input signal right now there is no HDCP material just the s-video and SONY 400 dvd with componet. Plus I don't have any audio hooked up yet cause i'm still on the first few pages of the manual trying to get the picture

I haven't set up a HDMI input yet, i'll try that one tonight.

480i support isn't in the DVI specs. 480p is the lowest supported res per spec.

That was one advantage of HDMI over DVI, you could take the 480i signal out of the DVD player, and deinterlace/scale externally.

Cheers,

Because the HDMI spec supports 480i, I'm guessing that most processors will accept 480i over a DVI connection (ie 480i from HDMI thru DVI adapter).

Similarly newer players with both HDMI and DVI outputs will likely encode 480i over DVI the same way it is implemented over HDMI - with pixel doubling.

However, older DVI players may not do the pixel doubling, which MAY be a problem.

No fault to the receiving equipment, necessarily - just a POSSIBLE explanation?

I will get a 480i machine this weekend and test my Vantage and let you know?

From Bob Sorel (post 324):

"BTW, I started a Vantage-HD bug report thread, so anyone who finds software bugs please report them here (url follows)"



Bob, what happened to your new bug-thread, I get the message "invalid thread" when trying to access it (two days ago there were 2 posts there)?

Andylang

Bob, what happened to your new bug-thread, I get the message "invalid thread" when trying to access it (two days ago there were 2 posts there)?
I deleted the thread on Ofer's advice. From what I can understand, companies do not like to publicly air their dirty laundry, so they probably would not be very receptive to a publicly posted bug list.

I've decided to contact Calibre directly with my bug list as soon as I can figure out who is the correct person to contact...;)

I agree, but what they did was double the 720 Horizontal resolution to 1440 to make it 1440 x 480 to get it within specs of DVI. A cool trick, but no longer needed with HDMI now.
Not so. This is exactly what HDMI does to support 480i. Remember that HDMI is, for the most part, the same physical transport mechanism as DVI with a different connector and set of higher level protocol specs. Both DVI and HDMI use a TMDS link which has a minimum supported video pixel clock frequency of 25 MHz (i.e., VGA), so to carry video formats with lower frequencies (e.g., 480i and 576i) some sort of 'trick' must be used. The adopted method is to transmit each pixel twice. This is documented in the EIA/CEA-861 specification, and the clock-doubled format desribed there can be used with either DVI or HDMI.

Sounds like what Lumagen did too.
That's how the 480i DVI output on the Accupel signal generator works, as well as the 480i DVI input on the DVDO iScan HD+.

- Dale Adams

Because the HDMI spec supports 480i, I'm guessing that most processors will accept 480i over a DVI connection (ie 480i from HDMI thru DVI adapter).Why would you guess that? There's no reason that a true DVI input will accept 480i; it wouldn't know what to do with the pixel-doubled input (or the YCbCr colorspace, for that matter). You'd better make sure that the DVI input is actually an HDMI input with a DVI physical connector, or that the subsequent processing steps explicitly detect the pixel doubling.Similarly newer players with both HDMI and DVI outputs will likely encode 480i over DVI the same way it is implemented over HDMI - with pixel doubling.Again, I don't think you should be so confident about this. The designers may not want to risk interoperability issues and dumb down the DVI output so that it keeps to the DVI spec.

480i support isn't in the DVI specs. 480p is the lowest supported res per spec.

That was one advantage of HDMI over DVI, you could take the 480i signal out of the DVD player, and deinterlace/scale externally.

Cheers,

But if the DVI output of the Digital Blaster outputs 480i (from my SDI), and the Vantage accepts 480i through HDMI, and I am connected with a DVI-->HDMI cable between them, why isn't the Vantage seeing it?

EDID issue, perhaps? (i.e., miscommunication between the Digital Blaster and the Vantage that is making the Vantage default to true DVI only.)

Not so. This is exactly what HDMI does to support 480i. Remember that HDMI is, for the most part, the same physical transport mechanism as DVI with a different connector and set of higher level protocol specs. Both DVI and HDMI use a TMDS link which has a minimum supported video pixel clock frequency of 25 MHz (i.e., VGA), so to carry video formats with lower frequencies (e.g., 480i and 576i) some sort of 'trick' must be used. The adopted method is to transmit each pixel twice. This is documented in the EIA/CEA-861 specification, and the clock-doubled format desribed there can be used with either DVI or HDMI.


That's how the 480i DVI output on the Accupel signal generator works, as well as the 480i DVI input on the DVDO iScan HD+.

- Dale Adams

Thanks for the clarification Dale:)!!!

How do you explain what the Sony DVP-NS975V does with it's 480i HDMI output? If it is the same as the others, why do I get an image when going thru the VHD that has every other horizontal line missing? When I hook it to the Ruby direct at 480i, everything looks great. The Pioneer 59avi at 480i HDMI works perfect thru the VHD. :confused:

Any way you can get hold of a Sony 975 DVD to do some testing of it's 480i HDMI output with your products?

Dale,

Things work that are out of spec all the time -- when that happens you're in what I call "unsupported land".

I'd love to see what happens when a DVI input is confronted with YCbCr colorspace and color depth beyond spec too ;) HDMI is a superset of DVI after all.

I'm not saying that 480i won't work with DVI, I'm saying it's out of spec to work. So when it does fail, it's "as expected".

Cheers,

EDID issue, perhaps? (i.e., miscommunication between the Digital Blaster and the Vantage that is making the Vantage default to true DVI only.)

No.. we all know EDID has been perfect from day one :p

But if the DVI output of the Digital Blaster outputs 480i (from my SDI), and the Vantage accepts 480i through HDMI, and I am connected with a DVI-->HDMI cable between them, why isn't the Vantage seeing it?

Hi Alan, I don't know the Digital Blaster very well, but here's what I think has to be happening:

Yes, your SDi does output 480i, no problem there.

This goes into the digital blaster, which would have to convert this to 480i over HDMI - to do this, the DB would have to perform pixel doubling on the 720 pixels.

You would have to check the specs on whether it is doing this. The one time I looked at the DB I seem to recall it was upconverting to 480p and above.

Have you used 480i HDMI out of the DB before?

I am 100% certain that the Vantage should support 480i over both HDMI and DVI...

Thanks for the clarification Dale:)!!!

How do you explain what the Sony DVP-NS975V does with it's 480i HDMI output? If it is the same as the others, why do I get an image when going thru the VHD that has every other horizontal line missing? When I hook it to the Ruby direct at 480i, everything looks great. The Pioneer 59avi at 480i HDMI works perfect thru the VHD. :confused:

Any way you can get hold of a Sony 975 DVD to do some testing of it's 480i HDMI output with your products?

I hope Dale can explain that one, because I honestly can't say.

My only conclusion would be that the Sony does not do the pixel-doubling, whereas the Pioneer does...

Why would you guess that? There's no reason that a true DVI input will accept 480i; it wouldn't know what to do with the pixel-doubled input (or the YCbCr colorspace, for that matter). You'd better make sure that the DVI input is actually an HDMI input with a DVI physical connector, or that the subsequent processing steps explicitly detect the pixel doubling.Again, I don't think you should be so confident about this. The designers may not want to risk interoperability issues and dumb down the DVI output so that it keeps to the DVI spec.

Sorry Michael, I didn't lay that out clearly.

What I meant that HDMI processors would accept 480i over HDMI, even if converted to DVI by an adapter. This is because (as I understand it) HDMI spec supports pixel doubling to bring 480i into a supported range.

Similarly, HDMI-equipped DVD players that support pixel-doubling (and therefore 480i) should be fine into an HDMI processor, even if you feed from the DVI output, or step thru a HDMI-DVI-HDMI adapter set.

I think we are the same page. The reason I was talking about converting to DVI and back was to eliminate the possibility that the player had HDMI audio problems like my Denon did.

How do you explain what the Sony DVP-NS975V does with it's 480i HDMI output? If it is the same as the others, why do I get an image when going thru the VHD that has every other horizontal line missing? When I hook it to the Ruby direct at 480i, everything looks great. The Pioneer 59avi at 480i HDMI works perfect thru the VHD. :confused:

Any way you can get hold of a Sony 975 DVD to do some testing of it's 480i HDMI output with your products?
I use a Sony 975 player every day in my test setup. Outside of some bugs in it's operation (refuses to power on, etc.) and some HDCP problems (I think everybody has these :rolleyes: ) I don't have any problems with 480i output over HDMI. I'm using a VP30 with both an SiI504 and our new add-on deinterlacer card, and both work fine with this player. (I'm getting a 4:2:2 YCbCr signal from the 975, by the way.)

It sounds like it could be a VHD problem, although there are enough odd equipment incompatibilities with HDMI that it's hard to be sure. Back when we were adding 480i DVI input support to the iScan HD+ I noticed that there seemed to be 2 general classes of DVI/HDMI 480i signal generation. One of these was perfectly compliant with the EIA/CEA-861 spec, while the other was not. As I recall, the non-compliant sources had the active video for one of the fields starting one line early. Our designs identify these two variations and work with both. Perhaps the VHD does not, but that's a question which should be directed to the Calibre folks. I don't remember ever seeing a problem like what you describe, however, so there might be a different issue at play here.

- Dale Adams

Hi Alan, I don't know the Digital Blaster very well, but here's what I think has to be happening:

Yes, your SDi does output 480i, no problem there.

This goes into the digital blaster, which would have to convert this to 480i over HDMI - to do this, the DB would have to perform pixel doubling on the 720 pixels.

You would have to check the specs on whether it is doing this. The one time I looked at the DB I seem to recall it was upconverting to 480p and above.

Have you used 480i HDMI out of the DB before?

I am 100% certain that the Vantage should support 480i over both HDMI and DVI...

rdjam,

The DB has a pass through mode as of firmware version 4.5 or 4.6. I have never tried that mode before with any other scalers or displays, but I have heard that it works.

rdjam,
This is how i have my setup:

On the inputs i have s- video coming out of my pre-amp and going into s1 on VHD

And i have componet coming out of my pre-amp and going into comp1 on VHD

Then on output i'm using 4 meter Monster DVI/HDMI to connect my HDTV
Mitsubishi WL-82913 LCOS 1080P (which i still can't get to work) only default works.
On the input signal right now there is no HDCP material just the s-video and SONY 400 dvd with componet. Plus I don't have any audio hooked up yet cause i'm still on the first few pages of the manual trying to get the picture

I haven't set up a HDMI input yet, i'll try that one tonight.

Are the two analog inputs coming from the same preamp?

Try connecting one at a time - guess I'm superstitious. I saw documentation supporting my finding that HDMI and analog plugged into the VHD at the same time from the same source "seemed" to cause the HDCP to hiccup, resulting in a picture for a couple of seconds, then the screen going blank.

Have you connected the VHD to a pc monitor first to setup the output options to match the Mitsu? The VHD defaults to 640x480 from factory.

I'd love to see what happens when a DVI input is confronted with YCbCr colorspace and color depth beyond spec too ;)
It all depends on how the hardware after the DVI receiver chip is implemented, as well as what software support is available. The iScan HD+, for instance, has the hardware to correctly process a 4:4:4 RGB, 4:4:4 YCbCr, and 4:2:2 YCbCr 480i signal from its DVI input. (The iScan software doesn't support all these modes, but the hardware can.) It doesn't work with anything but 8-bit sampling, however, but that's how it was designed (as the SiI504 only accepts an 8-bit input signal) not an inherent limitation of the interface.

Both DVI and HDMI transfer 24 bits of data per pixel clock. You can pack whatever data you want into those 24 bits as long as both ends of the signal chain agree on how you do it and what it all means. HDMI just adds a higher level on top of the (nearly) same physical interface which handles different data packing schemes.

- Dale Adams

I hope Dale can explain that one, because I honestly can't say.

My only conclusion would be that the Sony does not do the pixel-doubling, whereas the Pioneer does...

That's what I was thinking too, but if that was the case, why is it the "480" seems to be the one missing the "doubled" info and not the "720/1440" part:confused: The horizontal lines I am missing are the vertical resolution:rolleyes:

I use a Sony 975 player every day in my test setup. Outside of some bugs in it's operation (refuses to power on, etc.) and some HDCP problems (I think everybody has these :rolleyes: ) I don't have any problems with 480i output over HDMI. I'm using a VP30 with both an SiI504 and our new add-on deinterlacer card, and both work fine with this player. (I'm getting a 4:2:2 YCbCr signal from the 975, by the way.)

It sounds like it could be a VHD problem, although there are enough odd equipment incompatibilities with HDMI that it's hard to be sure. Back when we were adding 480i DVI input support to the iScan HD+ I noticed that there seemed to be 2 general classes of DVI/HDMI 480i signal generation. One of these was perfectly compliant with the EIA/CEA-861 spec, while the other was not. As I recall, the non-compliant sources had the active video for one of the fields starting one line early. Our designs identify these two variations and work with both. Perhaps the VHD does not, but that's a question which should be directed to the Calibre folks. I don't remember ever seeing a problem like what you describe, however, so there might be a different issue at play here.

- Dale Adams

Wow, that is so awesome Dale:) That may explain some of my issues if the video starts one line early with the Sony. Is there any way for you to find out if that's what it's doing? It almost sounds to me like it's just a parallel version of the same serial signal of SDI coming out of the HDMI port. Maybe it just doesn't go thru a serializer that would be used with SDI? It's good to know that it's YCbCr 4:2:2. I wonder if Sony did this as kind of a proprietary thing for use with their HDMI displays so their DVD would look better than others;)

Is there any reason you chose this route over using an SDI player? What is your display device and have you tried going 480i direct from the Sony to it?

Is there any way for you to find out if that's what it's doing?
To determine which 'class' it falls into I'd need some test equipment which I don't have here at home. (I work from home most of the time.) I'll try to take a look at it the next time I'm in the office.

Is there any reason you chose this route over using an SDI player? What is your display device and have you tried going 480i direct from the Sony to it?
This player is in my 'lab' setup along with a number of other video sources. It's not a matter of choosing this instead of an SDI player - I needed a player capable of 480i over DVI/HDMI for test purposes, and the Sony serves that purpose. This is the setup I've used over the last year or so for development of the new ABT deinterlacer. To be honest, I have no idea if any of the displays I use for this will accept a 480i HDMI input. (That's not quite true - I know the computer CRT monitor won't. :D )

- Dale Adams

I deleted the thread on Ofer's advice. From what I can understand, companies do not like to publicly air their dirty laundry, so they probably would not be very receptive to a publicly posted bug list.


Doesnt that seem a little funny? Its not like noone gripes on these boards, about the smallest little things.

DVDO and Lumagen seem to do ok with theirs.

To determine which 'class' it falls into I'd need some test equipment which I don't have here at home. (I work from home most of the time.) I'll try to take a look at it the next time I'm in the office.


This player is in my 'lab' setup along with a number of other video sources. It's not a matter of choosing this instead of an SDI player - I needed a player capable of 480i over DVI/HDMI for test purposes, and the Sony serves that purpose. This is the setup I've used over the last year or so for development of the new ABT deinterlacer. To be honest, I have no idea if any of the displays I use for this will accept a 480i HDMI input. (That's not quite true - I know the computer CRT monitor won't. :D )

- Dale Adams

Too funny Dale, your "office/lab/HT" sound an awful lot like mine:p!!! My so called home theater has video sources, test equipment and tools laying all the seats, etc. I actually had it all together at one time, but then so much gear comes and goes thru here it's a wild goose chase to keep it looking like a theater:eek:!!!

Let me know if you happen to test it out.

Thanks.

Wow, that is so awesome Dale:) That may explain some of my issues if the video starts one line early with the Sony. Is there any way for you to find out if that's what it's doing? It almost sounds to me like it's just a parallel version of the same serial signal of SDI coming out of the HDMI port. Maybe it just doesn't go thru a serializer that would be used with SDI? It's good to know that it's YCbCr 4:2:2. I wonder if Sony did this as kind of a proprietary thing for use with their HDMI displays so their DVD would look better than others;)

Is there any reason you chose this route over using an SDI player? What is your display device and have you tried going 480i direct from the Sony to it?

Hey Dave - try this one: every now and then (twice) the Denon seems to act up with the VHD and I just get a blue screen and the VHD says "NA" to the input signal. I start a disk up in the Denon and let it get into the main movie, then power off the VHD from the front panel, leave it a few seconds with the Denon playing, then power on again from the VHD front panel. Within a few seconds, Presto, the VHD starts showing.

It only happens with the Denon, not my other equipment - it might be worth a try?

Hey Dale - try this one: every now and then (twice) the Denon seems to act up with the VHD and I just get a blue screen and the VHD says "NA" to the input signal. I start a disk up in the Denon and let it get into the main movie, then power off the VHD from the front panel, leave it a few seconds with the Denon playing, then power on again from the VHD front panel. Within a few seconds, Presto, the VHD starts showing.

It only happens with the Denon, not my other equipment - it might be worth a try?

Have you tried changing the denon's HDMI resolution output signal, then changing it back to what you normally use? ...... just so as to MAKE the denon refresh/reactivate its Digital video output?

i would have thought that would cause it to try and send the Vantage a NEW signal info.

Matt.G

rdjam:What I meant that HDMI processors would accept 480i over HDMI, even if converted to DVI by an adapter. This is because (as I understand it) HDMI spec supports pixel doubling to bring 480i into a supported range.Understood. This I agree with, 90%... DVI/HDMI adapters ought to be nothing more than pass-through socket converters. So this should work. However, someone on this forum seemed to have trouble with a converter---I wonder if it was just defective or if it didn't pass the EDID information, forcing a fallback to DVI. Anyway, I agree that the use of a simple adapter (or rather, a pair of them, one on each end) should not be a problem.Similarly, HDMI-equipped DVD players that support pixel-doubling (and therefore 480i) should be fine into an HDMI processor, even if you feed from the DVI output, or step thru a HDMI-DVI-HDMI adapter set.I agree with the second, but not the first. Just because a player has an HDMI and a DVI output isn't necessarily going to mean that the DVI output "secretly" supports 480i or other HDMI features. They could very well dumb down that DVI output on purpose to improve interoperability.

Hey Dale - try this one: every now and then (twice) the Denon seems to act up with the VHD and I just get a blue screen and the VHD says "NA" to the input signal. I start a disk up in the Denon and let it get into the main movie, then power off the VHD from the front panel, leave it a few seconds with the Denon playing, then power on again from the VHD front panel. Within a few seconds, Presto, the VHD starts showing.
I don't know anything about the VHD. I've never seen one, am not really familiar with the feature set, and haven't seen any documentation on it. Consequently, I have no idea under what conditions it might do what you describe. This sounds like a question you should be asking Calibre tech support. Also, I don't know what "the Denon" is, so it's hard for me to comment there. Offhand, it sounds like it could be some sort of HDMI or HDCP handshaking or negotiation problem, but that's purely a guess (assuming, of course, that's the type of connection you're using).

It only happens with the Denon, not my other equipment - it might be worth a try?
Exactly what is it you're thinking might be worth a try?

- Dale Adams

Dale,

You guys are the best. You and Josh definitely add some value to the desirability of your products.

Ooops - Sorry Dale! I meant that for Dave - I'll edit the post (sheepish grin)

Have you tried changing the denon's HDMI resolution output signal, then changing it back to what you normally use? ...... just so as to MAKE the denon refresh/reactivate its Digital video output?

i would have thought that would cause it to try and send the Vantage a NEW signal info.

Matt.G

Yes, switched HDMI and DVI on and off, plugged out the DVI cable, everything - repowering the VHD did the trick.

Only mentioned it in case it helped Dave out.

I'm just adopting the mental outlook that as I go along and pick up newer equipment, these HDMI/DVi issues will become a thing of the past - just par for the course :) Pretty certain the culprit is the Denon 3910, tho.

Ooops - Sorry Dale! I meant that for Dave - I'll edit the post (sheepish grin)

Hey alright then, I'll give that a try I guess and see what gives. I was wondering why you were asking Dale, who works for Anchor Bay/DVDO, about Calibre products...especially brand new ones:rolleyes:

Ooops - Sorry Dale! I meant that for Dave - I'll edit the post (sheepish grin)
Well, then. . . nevermind. ;) (Sorry for the somewhat curt reply.)

Still, it sounds like an HDCP problem to me.

- Dale Adams

I tried going into the config menu to change the "HDMI input mode" but there was only "HDMI audio output" option. Anyone know about this.

Alan,

See this prior post by Bob Sorel:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7318815&&#post7318815

Alan,

See this prior post by Bob Sorel:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7318815&&#post7318815

Strange. Thanks Dave.

Right...same here with software version 1.1.1

BUT, on the Calibre site I read this:

Does anyone know what that means?

The best I could figure from the wording is that the menu item that is listed as "HDMI input mode" (though I think mine reads something more like "HDMI audio mode" or something like that) has an incorrect list of choices attached to it. The list attached is a list of audio modes (like you mentioned), but in actuality only the first 2 choices work. If you choose the first choice (whatever its label) you will be in Receiver mode and if you choose the second item in the list (whatever it is labeled) you will get Repeater mode. All other choices are invalid and will cause the Vantage to crash. Does this make sense? Can anyone obtain a better interpretation of the info I have quoted from Calibre? ;)

I've been waiting until tomorrow when a software update is available before trying something that I have no idea works or not.

Hi Bob - sorry I missed replying to you on this.

I have version 1.1.0 firmware on my Vantage, so that would explain the different options.

I have contacted Calibre to see what else is available for me to update. But I'm not having any problems with 1.1.0 except for the picture settings when switching modes, and the compatibility issues with the Denon 3910.

Next on my upgrade list is the add-in for additional HDMI ports (as well as a replacement player for the 3910 and a replacement for my 3805, with DTS-HD 7.1)

Dale,

Things work that are out of spec all the time -- when that happens you're in what I call "unsupported land".

I'd love to see what happens when a DVI input is confronted with YCbCr colorspace and color depth beyond spec too ;) HDMI is a superset of DVI after all.

I'm not saying that 480i won't work with DVI, I'm saying it's out of spec to work. So when it does fail, it's "as expected".

Cheers,

My Infocus SP7200 accepts 480i YCbCr on its DVI input from my Accupel. The SP7200 does not recognize it as YCbCr when the color decoding is set to "Auto". It must be set to Rec 601 manually to color decode it. I have not tried it with a DVD player that outputs that signal standard, but the test patterns from the Accupel look normal. It has been a while since I have done it, but I'm pretty sure that the PJ reports it is receiving 1440 X 480i.

Glenn

Thanks for the clarification Dale:)!!!

How do you explain what the Sony DVP-NS975V does with it's 480i HDMI output? If it is the same as the others, why do I get an image when going thru the VHD that has every other horizontal line missing? When I hook it to the Ruby direct at 480i, everything looks great. The Pioneer 59avi at 480i HDMI works perfect thru the VHD. :confused:

Any way you can get hold of a Sony 975 DVD to do some testing of it's 480i HDMI output with your products?

HI Dave,

Does the Ruby have an info page in its menu that indicates what signal it is receiving? That would tell you if it is receiving 1440 X 480 or 720 X 480. If not, perhaps you have access to another display that does? Just a thought.

Glenn

Hi All, I've been in touch with Calibre and they have said that there will be new firmware released this week for the Vantage HD.

The firmware will replace both 1.1.0 (like mine) and 1.1.1 and bring all units up to identical functionality. Units can be upgraded USB.

The update (and instructions to perform) will be posted on their site later this week, subject to final internal QC.

HI Dave,

Does the Ruby have an info page in its menu that indicates what signal it is receiving? That would tell you if it is receiving 1440 X 480 or 720 X 480. If not, perhaps you have access to another display that does? Just a thought.

Glenn

Glenn,

Yes it has an info page and it lists it as 720x480i. It lists both the 59avi and the Sony 975 as the same thing, but clearly there's some sort of difference and it must be what Dale mentioned previously.

Thanks for the FW info rdjam:)

The only issue with large and slow is the mounting. This isn't a pc motherboard with standard socket mounting options. It would have to be something custom. From what I can tell the fan mount was made for just that size fan.My Vantage fan appears to get louder and louder every day :(

And it's really loud, much louder than my projector for example. If I just sit in the room and read a newspaper, it's completely unbearable :mad:

The strangest thing is that it does not stop once I switch the Vantage off via the remote. So guess what I have to do? Yes, I have to go to the Vantage and plug the cable of the power supply. And we are in the 21st century :o

It's a bit amusing, that such a bug could pass the whole engineering phase.

Calibre: are you listening? Do you at least consider to change the firmware so that the fan stops when the Vantage is switched off via the remote?

Hi,

I am pretty certain the problem is that the HQV chip is too hot at shut down to just turn off the fan right away. Their solution was to just leave it on all the time rather than deal with a timer circuit to turn it off once the chip has reached a safe temp. I would urge you to wait several minutes after you turn off the unit by remote before you manually unplug the unit. IF you don't wait it could be an early grave for the HQV chip!

My Marquee projector does the same thing with leaving the fans on al the time, os I get to wait to uplug it for a few minutes after I turn it off.


God bless...

Mark

This thread seems to be fading away. Are there really no new bugs and/or experiences with the VHD??

I am still waiting for mine ... :(

Hi andelang,

I have been doing some a/b verses another highly reguarded scaler and my VantageHD and the more testing I do the more I love the deinterlacing of the Vantage. It is not perfect, but it is better than the SIl504 based units. Also, I love the PIP (picture in picture)function that the VHD has. Now if I get bored with a movie, I can PIP and see if there is anything better on TV or Sat. Without bugging my wife switching inputs all the time. (The cool thing is I am running 1080p out from the scaler and the PIP still works very well. Even the small PIP inset still looks great!

God bless...

Mark

Hi Mark,

Thank you for sharing your experiences. :) While waiting for the Vantage, I am
trying to figure out how to set it up when it arrives. I am using a Denon DVD A11
(aka DVD 5900 in the US) featuring DCDi Faroudja FLI-2310 and 2 x 12-Bit, 216 MHz video-DAC's. It has a DVI output, but unfortunately it is not possible to get 480i or 576i out. There are only 3 possibilities: 480p, 720p and 1080i. Hence, it seems impossible to bypass the internal processing of the Denon. I am not sure if feeding the Vantage with component output from the player would be good enough, as the VHD should (to my understanding) have as "pure", unprocessed
input as possible. I also expect to run into compatibility problems between my
Pioneer Elite 50'' plasma and the VHD - there have been som rumours about
this around. :confused:

Andy

Hi,

I am pretty certain the problem is that the HQV chip is too hot at shut down to just turn off the fan right away. Their solution was to just leave it on all the time rather than deal with a timer circuit to turn it off once the chip has reached a safe temp. I would urge you to wait several minutes after you turn off the unit by remote before you manually unplug the unit. IF you don't wait it could be an early grave for the HQV chip!I'm pretty sure you are perfectly right.

Very nice... :confused:

Has somebody run HQV benchmark DVD with VantageHD.

I have Yamaha DPX-1300 which has HQV internally.
With DPX-1300, on "Jaggies pattern 2" test,
upper-most and middle bars are very well deinterlaced but lowest bar shows round ripple(like sine-wave).
This is somewhat disappointing result about HQV's deinterlacing performance.

Maybe it is because Yamaha did not fully implement HQV on DPX-1300.
Or maybe it is HQV's original performance.

I want to know the VantageHD's deinterlacing performance for "Jaggies pattern 2" test.
If VantageHD also shows some ripple on lowest bar, I will wait until Gennum based Video Processor comes to macket.

Somebody says HQV is better than DCDi Faroudja(FLI-2310), and I think so.
Has anybody run HQV benchmark DVD for DCDi Faroudja(FLI-2310).
If somebody did, would you share the "Jaggies pattern 2" test result with us?

Has somebody run HQV benchmark DVD with VantageHD.

I have Yamaha DPX-1300 which has HQV internally.
With DPX-1300, on "Jaggies pattern 2" test,
upper-most and middle bars are very well deinterlaced but lowest bar shows round ripple(like sine-wave).
This is somewhat disappointing result about HQV's deinterlacing performance.

Maybe it is because Yamaha did not fully implement HQV on DPX-1300.
Or maybe it is HQV's original performance.

I want to know the VantageHD's deinterlacing performance for "Jaggies pattern 2" test.
If VantageHD also shows some ripple on lowest bar, I will wait until Gennum based Video Processor comes to macket.

Somebody says HQV is better than DCDi Faroudja(FLI-2310), and I think so.
Has anybody run HQV benchmark DVD for DCDi Faroudja(FLI-2310).
If somebody did, would you share the "Jaggies pattern 2" test result with us?

Not a VHD but my NEC TheaterSync has problem with the bottom bar also. The symptom is that the upper right tip of that bar shows a wavy pattern. The TheaterSync is OEM'ed from Silicon Optix and I have a ticket into them to look at the "problem."

any way to feed the vantage an OTA HD signal to deinterlace and spit out 1080p?

any way to feed the vantage an OTA HD signal to deinterlace and spit out 1080p?
Sure. I feed the Vantage with 1080i OTA signals from both my Dish 211 and MyHD card, and the Vantage is very happy to spit everything out 1080p...:D

Has somebody run HQV benchmark DVD with VantageHD.

I have Yamaha DPX-1300 which has HQV internally.
With DPX-1300, on "Jaggies pattern 2" test,
upper-most and middle bars are very well deinterlaced but lowest bar shows round ripple(like sine-wave).
This is somewhat disappointing result about HQV's deinterlacing performance.

Maybe it is because Yamaha did not fully implement HQV on DPX-1300.
Or maybe it is HQV's original performance.

I want to know the VantageHD's deinterlacing performance for "Jaggies pattern 2" test.
If VantageHD also shows some ripple on lowest bar, I will wait until Gennum based Video Processor comes to macket.

Somebody says HQV is better than DCDi Faroudja(FLI-2310), and I think so.
Has anybody run HQV benchmark DVD for DCDi Faroudja(FLI-2310).
If somebody did, would you share the "Jaggies pattern 2" test result with us?

I am feeding my Marantz S4(upgrade with Gennum chip latest firmware)with Pioneer 989 480i hdmi now and fail the jaggies test 2 completely . Denon 5910 720p pass the test . The slight round ripple on lowest bar is acceptable compare to other chips performance . When you try the others , you get what I mean .

Vantage. It is not perfect, but it is better than the SIl504 based units.

may I know more specifically, how does it compare on 480i film source ? (i.e. DVD movies) Thanks.

(I assumed u r outputting 1080p to your PJ right ? )

Absolutely brilliant on films - both PAL and NTSC SD interlace - I'm using component to get 480i/576i - Waiting for a new DVD player to do interlace SD over HDMI.

My fan has gotten a lot quieter again - never really bothered me before, but a hardly notice it now - I wonder if anyone has looked at an aftermarket replacement? There is so much space inside the case, it could easily hold a large, slow heat sink that would be completely silent.

Hi,

I agree with rdjam, it really does a great job of deinterlacing for both and film and video sources and 480i and 1080i both look great!

As for the heat sink idea, I heard that the HQV chip requires active cooling (fan) I would be very careful cause it would be sad to see smoke coming from the HQV chip. WHat might be an option is a larger slower spinning fan. It would be almost silent and still give the needed air flow.

God bless...

Mark

Yeah, it does great on 480i material.

I have an Escient/Sony 777 Changer setup. Before the Vantage the movies looked a lot better from my Samsung DVD player than the Sony. With the Vantage its a whole nother level.

While not quite as good as watching D-VHS or HD Cable its definitely very pleasant to watch a DVD through the Vantage. :)

Calibre has put out the firmware update on the website.

I will try and install it on mine tonight.

Abbas

AHA! I've found it! :D

Not bad - 18.6 Megs. They've also added 1080p50 and 1080p60 input to the HDMI in ports.

I'll play in the morning...

HI All,

A couple of thoughts regarding this firmware update.

As you'll see from the instructions, the Vantage must be plugged out (no power) and no USB connected - before you begin.

To play it safe - make sure that you power off the unit from the remote or front panel FIRST, and let the HQV chip cool down for a few minutes before you plug out the power.

Call me superstitious, but the HQV chip does use a lot of cooling, so it's always nice to play safe.

Also, make sure that before you begin all of this, you actually have hooked the Vantage up to your PC and installed it's driver before. Otherwise, when you go to do the update, your PC will not recognize the Vantage and the update program will not find it to do the update.

This will just add stress to your update process (ask me! :) )

When you hook up the Vantage USB to your PC for the first time, Windows will ask you if it can search the web for a driver - choose "Yes, just this time" and click OK - it will take a few minutes, but will come back and say something like "Found a driver, but it is not signed, continue?" - and you will say YES.

That's it - now you are ready to start the update...

The download file self-executes and runs an installation for the update program. When complete, you can access the update program in your start menu like everything else. After the installation, you can choose finish but uncheck the "run update" - leaving "show text file" checked will give you some basics..

Once you run the update program, it will give you the rest of the instructions - very straightforward. I just thought I'd add these rather redundant cautions :)

Completed the update - plugged the power back out - then plugged the power back in.

The Vantage blinks Green on the front for a few seconds (I'm assuming it's loading the firmware) then returns to Red "power off" state.

I then press the front panel Power button and it goes to normal Green "Power On" condition on front panel.

No picture on the HD2K, so I'm assuming the Vantage has returned to "Factory Default" 640 x 480 output resolution...

So I've hooked up a PC monitor again - and - YES, the Vantage was back at 640 x 480.

I change it back to 1920 x 1080, and all is well - the HD2K is showing it again.

Warning - the firmware update resets everything to factory default, so you will have to set up all your inputs from scratch.

Not the end of the world - at least everything went smoothly, otherwise.

OK - it's about 3 in the morning, so I'm going to leave the rest for tomorrow..

I have re-setup the Vantage HD and now all my sources are feeding Audio through the VHD.

I should have done this before - it really works well and the lipsync is perfect.

Have tested the Denon 3910 and it still doesn't like HDMI connection - it still freezes completely, requiring being plugged out to get it back. This occurs on both Receiver and Repeater mode.

No surprise there, as I always felt it was the Denon that was deficient in HDMI world.

Interestingly, the Denon now will not work through DVI either. The video flashes on and off the screen. I believe that this is HDCP related?? Anyway - I'll sort it out tomorrow...

All other sources perfect as usual -

DVHS deck thru HDMI 2, all good...
Sky Satellite through S-Video and TOSlink, cool...
HDV camera through Component and analog audio, A-OK

I don't see much different in the VHD menus to be honest, but will spend more time tomorrow - I'm knackered now...

I'm sure I'll get the Denon working again in the AM...

Anyone else, feel free to add your voice on the update tonight while I catch some zzzz's :)

Hmmm....I guess you missed my posts from yesterday in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=655940

Sorry, I should have prepared you...;)

Hi Bob - yes, checked it out now :)

OK - well I've gotten one great benefit from the firmware update!

I can now connect my HTPC to the Vantage through the HDMI port at the full 1080p 60.

This is great, as I no longer have to connect the HTPC directly to the HD2K with a DVI switcher.

Once I got the HTPC hooked up, I flicked the resolution over to 720 x 576 50i and I can now play my DVDs from the Hard Drive and the DVD drive, straight into the Vantage and let the vantage upscale to 1080p, which gives fantastic results. The Audio is hooked to the Vantage via TOSlink, and the Vantage handles the audio delay.

This really works out perfectly!

It means that I can now "bin" the Denon 3910 for movie playback, since it has issues.

I will now leave the 3910 connected to my 3806 via Denonlink and use it only for DVD-A and SACD playback. I'll connect the video from the 3910 to the Vantage via S-Video 2, as I will only need it for menus, etc.

When I need NTSC or 1080p (for web browsing) from the HTPC, I just switch resolution settings.

This is really convenient!

And I can use Spyder2Pro to calibrate the HTPC and all video I playback through it will be color-perfect every time. When I need to calibrate the projector, all I have to do is set the display card to default color settings and connect directly to the projector.

I watched my first movie on this setup last night "Kiss Kiss Bang Bang"! (Bummer, no DTS track :mad: )

Life is good :D

Looking to the Vantage manual I noticed that there is no CRT display device type to choose from...
...does this mean that the VantageHD is not "suitable" for CRT projectors?

Do you think that a VP like the VantageHD is over-powerful (and expensive) for a 8" CRT projectors (which is not able to handle 1080p)?

Sorry for the "silly" questions but I am looking around for the perfect combination of pj and vp and there are too many things to consider...

Thanks,

TinToy

Hi Tintoy,

I use a crt and I do believe that it still is woth buying a VP like the Vantage because the deinterlacing that it offeres is stellar. Even if you want to display 720p, you will still need a good deinterlacer, so the Vantage still makes sense.


God bless...

Mark

Thank you Mark.

But are other settings in the VantageHD which depend on the choosen display device type (values are: LCD, Plasma, Projector [Digital Projectors!])?
Why there is no "CRT" or "other" option and only digital display?

Thanks

Hi,

The setting I use is "Projector" the other 2 settings are for direct view devices. (Plasma and LCD) This setting is supposed to support LCD, DLP and CRT front projectors.

God bless...

Mark

Hi Tintoy,

I use a crt and I do believe that it still is woth buying a VP like the Vantage because the deinterlacing that it offeres is stellar. Even if you want to display 720p, you will still need a good deinterlacer, so the Vantage still makes sense.


God bless...

Mark

I second that. If your CRT projector outputs anything higher than 480i, then it is a candidate for a video processor.

What projector do you have and what are it's supported format resolutions at 50 hz and 60 hz?

Hi Rdjam,

I currently own a little X1 but I am looking for a Barco 808s which is able to handle up to 720p / 1600x1200 (depending from the model, Data or Graphics, it has 75Mhz or 120Mhz RGB Bandwidth).
I will use a 16:9 resolution (720p) at 50Hz (as I live in Italy).

And this is the point, a used Barco 808s will cost about the same as the VantageHD...
...is it worth spending the same amount of money for this VP or it is "better" to buy something like a DVDO HD+???

TinToy

Hi Rdjam,

I currently own a little X1 but I am looking for a Barco 808s which is able to handle up to 720p / 1600x1200 (depending from the model, Data or Graphics, it has 75Mhz or 120Mhz RGB Bandwidth).
I will use a 16:9 resolution (720p) at 50Hz (as I live in Italy).

And this is the point, a used Barco 808s will cost about the same as the VantageHD...
...is it worth spending the same amount of money for this VP or it is "better" to buy something like a DVDO HD+???

TinToy

Hi TinToy,

The Infocus X1 has a native resolution of 800 by 600 and you would probably best off to drive it through the Computer RGB in port from a video processor.

Your real problem for the future is that the X1 have no digital inputs (ie DVI or HDMI), nor any support for HDCP.

The Barco 808 is a very good projector indeed and people love it. I've seen it quoted at 1200 lumens at 10% white so it should drive a 7 to 10 foot screen just fine. It's also available at some very good prices, refurbished.

I believe that it can do a max resolution of 1280 by 1024, but you might want to run it at 1280 by 720 for home theatre use.

I can't fault the 808 for anything much. However, I personally would be *concerned* about buying anything that doesn't have a digital input (ie DVI or HDMI) that is also HDCP-capable.

The new Hi Def discs coming out this year will require HDCP to show the movies in their full glory. (Some movies may not enforce this, but I think it may soon be required for all releases later on).

So....

1) Yes, a video processor is a GREAT addition to most setups.
2) A video processor *may* not add much value to 800 by 600 on your X1
3) If you look to buy a new projector first, the Barco 808 is great, but will not allow you to enjoy HD-DVD or Bluray content fully

My thoughts/conclusion/recommendation is....

1) Ask around to see if there is an optional Input Board for the Barco 808 that gives you an HDCP-compliant digital input

if not.. then..

2) Look to buy a reasonably-priced or second-hand projector with HDCP-compliant digital inputs (either DVI or HDMI) so that you can enjoy the Hidef content of the future - minimum resolution should be 1280 by 720

You may find that some of these units have a really good on-board scaler.

Regardless, you can add a Vantage or other processor after the new projector.

These are only MY thoughts, but I hope they've been helpful! :)

I am really looking forward to buy a CRT projector, for this reasion I will try to get that magic boxes that convert DVI to analog in order to drive the pj without Digital input and/or DHCP issues.

I much appreciate your comments.

TinToy

I am really looking forward to buy a CRT projector, for this reasion I will try to get that magic boxes that convert DVI to analog in order to drive the pj without Digital input and/or DHCP issues.

I much appreciate your comments.

TinToy

Anytime, TinToy.

By The Way - I just saw a post in another thread that seems to indicate that AACS protection on the new hi def dvds WILL allow analog output from a Computer VGA plug at resolutions up to 1280 x 1024.

This is news to me and I've asked for clarification, so I'll let you know.

IF I have not misunderstood what they said, a unit like the Vantage (which has a computer OUT connector, could drive the Barco 808 at it's maximum resolution, with the new HD-DVD and BR movies....

Stay tuned :)

I will keep my fingers crossed ;) and I will stay tuned for sure :)
Did you have a link to the news?

TinToy

:) The discussion and my post are here - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7387242#post7387242

Hi Mark,

Thank you for sharing your experiences. :) While waiting for the Vantage, I am
trying to figure out how to set it up when it arrives. I am using a Denon DVD A11
(aka DVD 5900 in the US) featuring DCDi Faroudja FLI-2310 and 2 x 12-Bit, 216 MHz video-DAC's. It has a DVI output, but unfortunately it is not possible to get 480i or 576i out. There are only 3 possibilities: 480p, 720p and 1080i. Hence, it seems impossible to bypass the internal processing of the Denon. I am not sure if feeding the Vantage with component output from the player would be good enough, as the VHD should (to my understanding) have as "pure", unprocessed
input as possible. I also expect to run into compatibility problems between my
Pioneer Elite 50'' plasma and the VHD - there have been som rumours about
this around. :confused:

Andy

Andy,

I had the DVD-A11 hooked up thru my vantage and have been testing S-Video, Component and DVI (480/576) from the A11.

Rather surprisingly, the different between these 3 inputs via the Vantage offers very little difference in quality. Whatever the Vantage is doing to make S-Video so close to the quality of Component and DVI is beyond me, but the proof is in the viewing.
My display device is a Sharp Z10000 (1280x720 DLP) and the A11 S-Video into the Vantage into the Z10000 is BETTER than the A11 DVI directly into the Sharp be a country mile.

I've tried to calibrate all 3 inputs to be as close to each other as possible, and flicking between the 3 i have at times been unable to tell which input is selected.

DVI offers the most in finely detailed imaging, whereas S-Video juuuust a fraction softer. Component is a fraction starker than both.
without changing the colour settings, DVI is greener, Component is Bluer, and S-Video is redder.
Overall, i personally prefer the colour coming from S-Video (just seems more natural), the sharpness from DVI (very fine detail cleanliness) and the intensity from Component.
So it's been quite a challenge to try and get all 3 qualities out of the 1 input... so a little compromise is required across the board.

I think it will be between DVI and Component and may simply come down to which one i run out of inputs for before the other, as i really am stoked with the quality of all 3.

BTW i mentioned in a previous post that i compared the A11's 480p and 720p outputs into the Vantage. Don't bother with 720p from the A11 as it's no way near as good as the scaler in the Vantage (much softer looking image overall).

Matt.G

By The Way - I just saw a post in another thread that seems to indicate that AACS protection on the new hi def dvds WILL allow analog output from a Computer VGA plug at resolutions up to 1280 x 1024.

For now....The analog outputs can be downrrezzed at any given time later, and the cynic in me says it won't take all that long. Hollywood is dying to close the analog hole, and to be honest with you, I am surprised that they are even going to allow this as a temporary measure.

I had the DVD-A11 hooked up thru my vantage and have been testing S-Video, Component and DVI (480/576) from the A11.

Rather surprisingly, the different between these 3 inputs via the Vantage offers very little difference in quality. Whatever the Vantage is doing to make S-Video so close to the quality of Component and DVI is beyond me, but the proof is in the viewing.

...

DVI offers the most in finely detailed imaging, whereas S-Video juuuust a fraction softer. Component is a fraction starker than both.
without changing the colour settings, DVI is greener, Component is Bluer, and S-Video is redder.
Overall, i personally prefer the colour coming from S-Video (just seems more natural), the sharpness from DVI (very fine detail cleanliness) and the intensity from Component.
So it's been quite a challenge to try and get all 3 qualities out of the 1 input... so a little compromise is required across the board.

I think it will be between DVI and Component and may simply come down to which one i run out of inputs for before the other, as i really am stoked with the quality of all 3.

BTW i mentioned in a previous post that i compared the A11's 480p and 720p outputs into the Vantage. Don't bother with 720p from the A11 as it's no way near as good as the scaler in the Vantage (much softer looking image overall).

Matt.G

Don't forget that s-video will be interlaced so you're invoking the vantages deinterlacer, for best result you'd want to feed interlaced over DVI/HDMI but if thats not an option (which I assume it isn't being a Denon) then try setting your component out to interlaced...

John.

Matt,

Thank you for the - partly - good news. Nevertheless, I am still wondering about a couple
of issues. As far as I understand, both S-video and component out from the A11 are
analogue signals, which means that the Denon has to convert the original DVD-data
through it's DACs. Consequently, the Vantage has to convert it again into digital data.
It seems to be a common opinion that every conversion increases distortion of the original signal. Do you - or anybody else - know how this conversion is done in the Vantage?

The best solution would probably be to get the A11 modified to provide a SDI output.
PixelMagic (Crystallio) offer a SDI-modified A11 for US$ 2.300. Their SDI modification module (to be hooked directly onto the mpeg-decoder in the player) is available in Sweden, but as yet I have not found anybody willing to do the modification. I would not like to get rid of the A11, as it is an excellent audio player.

Andy

Matt,

Thank you for the - partly - good news. Nevertheless, I am still wondering about a couple
of issues. As far as I understand, both S-video and component out from the A11 are
analogue signals, which means that the Denon has to convert the original DVD-data
through it's DACs. Consequently, the Vantage has to convert it again into digital data.
It seems to be a common opinion that every conversion increases distortion of the original signal. Do you - or anybody else - know how this conversion is done in the Vantage?

The best solution would probably be to get the A11 modified to provide a SDI output.
PixelMagic (Crystallio) offer a SDI-modified A11 for US$ 2.300. Their SDI modification module (to be hooked directly onto the mpeg-decoder in the player) is available in Sweden, but as yet I have not found anybody willing to do the modification. I would not like to get rid of the A11, as it is an excellent audio player.

Andy

The A11 is a US 5900 correct? Have you checked with JVB Digital? They did my 5900 and I couldn't be happier with the results. They are located in The Netherlands and Dearborn MI, USA.

http://www.jvbdigital.com/jvb.asp?cur=2&level=home&page=contactus
JVB Digital, how to contact us.

That is definitely what I'd recommend for that unit also, but the VHD doesn't have an SDI option available...yet.

Thank you for the - partly - good news. Nevertheless, I am still wondering about a couple
of issues. As far as I understand, both S-video and component out from the A11 are
analogue signals, which means that the Denon has to convert the original DVD-data
through it's DACs. Consequently, the Vantage has to convert it again into digital data.
It seems to be a common opinion that every conversion increases distortion of the original signal. Do you - or anybody else - know how this conversion is done in the Vantage?



Firstly its worth pointing out that s-video is inferior to component video, there is no comparision irrespective of them both being analogue.

I think Calibre have claimed that its component inputs are as good as HDMI, obviously needs to be taken with a large pinch of salt. That said I'd have thought the A11's component out was very good particularily in interlaced mode where the BW of the signal is half that required for progressive.

I'd have thought that interlaced component out would be the best stop gap solution until you can either get the A11 SDI modded or replace with a player that has interlace digital output, and calibre release teh SDI upgrade.

John.

I'd have thought that interlaced component out would be the best stop gap solution until you can either get the A11 SDI modded or replace with a player that has interlace digital output, and calibre release teh SDI upgrade.

John.
That's what I would do as well, but if the A11 has a macroblocking problem, which is something they are known for, then SDI is practically a must do mod(as long as you have a VP with SDI input). Bypassing the Faroudja chip makes quite a difference.

I am feeding my Marantz S4(upgrade with Gennum chip latest firmware)with Pioneer 989 480i hdmi now and fail the jaggies test 2 completely . Denon 5910 720p pass the test . The slight round ripple on lowest bar is acceptable compare to other chips performance . When you try the others , you get what I mean .

The Realta chip can be programmed to remove the little bit of ripple on the bottom bar of this test, but there is a point of diminishing returns where the extra processing required is better allocated to some other function, like noise reduction, or sharpening, especially when there is a 2nd video stream (in a PIP) that also requires processing. In a 2-Realta system (like one of the new Teranex systems), the system designer could allocate extra processing cycles to some functions to get incremental performance. Note that this is a considerable advantage of this kind of programmable platform, as algorithms can be loaded and executed according to the processing needs. A fixed-function image processor has to make the decision about performance to be provided at chip layout time, in most cases, rather than leaving the decision to the system architect. This allows for more product differentiation as well as more flexible implementations and upgrade paths.

Having been driving nuts with the noise of the fan in my Vantage, i decided to again to not just open the case up and take a peak inside, but to REMOVE the fan for a moment.

With this fan OUT of the unit and running just by itself, it is INCREDIBLY quite by comparision!

When the fan is placed directly on top of the Heat Sink....... what do you know, but the noise COMES BACK!

It would appear that when the fan is directly screwed into the Heatsink, it causes excessive amounts of vibrations. The harder the fan is pushed into the heatsink the louder it gets... the LESS pressure applied to the fan on top of the heatsink, the quieter it is.

Does anyone know if there are some types of heat-resistent isolation pads that could be placed between the fan the heatsink to absorb the vibrations? I think that is all you'd need to fix this once and for all.

thanks

Matt.G

Having been driving nuts with the noise of the fan in my Vantage, i decided to again to not just open the case up and take a peak inside, but to REMOVE the fan for a moment.

With this fan OUT of the unit and running just by itself, it is INCREDIBLY quite by comparision!

When the fan is placed directly on top of the Heat Sink....... what do you know, but the noise COMES BACK!

It would appear that when the fan is directly screwed into the Heatsink, it causes excessive amounts of vibrations. The harder the fan is pushed into the heatsink the louder it gets... the LESS pressure applied to the fan on top of the heatsink, the quieter it is.

Does anyone know if there are some types of heat-resistent isolation pads that could be placed between the fan the heatsink to absorb the vibrations? I think that is all you'd need to fix this once and for all.

thanks

Matt.G

It's probably the motherboard (or whatever it's screwed into) that's resonating and making it louder.

Not bad for their first run, the inputs are amazing though.

Would love to see some aftermarket replacements for the small, high-rev fan. Something bigger and slower would be a treat :) !

P.S. ! Careful you don't MELT the Realta chip while testing this! :)

It's probably the motherboard (or whatever it's screwed into) that's resonating and making it louder.

Not bad for their first run, the inputs are amazing though.

Would love to see some aftermarket replacements for the small, high-rev fan. Something bigger and slower would be a treat :) !


Oh My... I was sure the Vantage was fan-less instead it's a noisy fan. That's a showstopper for me :-( :mad:

Does anyone know a "next-gen" videoprocessor without fan?

Thanks

:) The realta runs hot, is the bottom line. I actually don't notice my fan, as it is virtually silent when it has been running more than a few minutes. But based on the sound when it is cold, I see the potential for it not to quieten down in some units.

Mine basically sounds like a laptop in AC power mode.

Hope that helps :)

Oh My... I was sure the Vantage was fan-less instead it's a noisy fan.
It must be variable from unit to unit...Mine is dead silent...:)

Have anyone tried feeding hdmi 480i to vantage , output 1280 x 720p to their native 720p pj , and watch a NTSC dvd? I ask this because there is around 5% black bar on the left screen and image is squeezed...... Pal dvd is fine but not NTSC . If force to output 50hz to pj and watch a NTSC movie , the motion is lagging although it fill the whole screen .

Have anyone tried feeding hdmi 480i to vantage , output 1280 x 720p to their native 720p pj , and watch a NTSC dvd? I ask this because there is around 5% black bar on the left screen and image is squeezed...... Pal dvd is fine but not NTSC . If force to output 50hz to pj and watch a NTSC movie , the motion is lagging although it fill the whole screen .

Yes, I am using both 480i and 576i through HDMI and everything is perfect. What are you feeding it from?

Yes, I am using both 480i and 576i through HDMI and everything is perfect. What are you feeding it from?

Pioneer 989 hdmi 480i to vantage , then to Marantz s4 . The rest of resolutions is ok except 720p at 60hz to S4 .

Oh My... I was sure the Vantage was fan-less instead it's a noisy fan. That's a showstopper for me :-( :mad:

Does anyone know a "next-gen" videoprocessor without fan?

Thanks


Look to the ABT products the new 102 (SD) based ones are fanless and the HD 'variant' due september :rolleyes: (VP50 :p ) is likely to be fanless as well. A bug bear of mine as well.

My Vantage was so quiet that I first thought they had removed the fan from my unit as there was this empty fan mounting hole at the rear of the unit!

Curious, I removed the cover to have a peek inside. I then saw a fan mounted above the Realta chip. To my relief, it was spinning, but quiet. On closer look, the fan was supported on top of the chip by four spring isolators, one on each of the four screws. The spring isolators could be bufffering the vibrations from the fan.

If your unit is too loud, see if they have those spring isolators fitted or have your dealer check it out with Calibre. The Vantage should not be any louder than a normal PC or laptop.

Does anyone know a "next-gen" videoprocessor without fan?The Crystalio 2 doesn't have a fan.

Nick

Probably because its much less powerful.

The Crystalio 2 doesn't have a fan.

Nick

Do you know that for sure, Nick - They're not shipping yet?

If you've seen it how did it look? I was under the impression it was usng a different generation of chips..

They guys at CRT have beta units so they might be able to comment (Limited by NDA's??).


If you've seen it how did it look? I was under the impression it was usng a different generation of chips..


VXP based not HQV.

One thing, I beleive VXP is considerably less programmable than HQV, generally speaking fixed function hardware is smaller and so consumes less power than programable HW of equivalent performance, so it might not require a fan.

Hey, will get to see units in a couple of weeks time so probably no point to conjecture now...

John.

Pixel Magic have stated that it's a fanless design. AFAIK the hardware has been finalised for some time - it's the Media Player integration that's held everything up.

The comment about it being less powerful, is something that we simply can't know for sure yet, the quality of the programming is what counts.
From other reports the Realta has more room for programming (like adding the FPGA to the SiI in the lumagens), but it's likely that we wont know what that can actually deliver until the Radiance has been out 6 months or so, if the current gen is anything to go by.

In the end speculation is fun, but we're so close to seeing real product now that we may as well wait and compare for ourselves. - just 2 weeks!

Edit: JohnWH posted at the same time!

That's what I would do as well, but if the A11 has a macroblocking problem, which is something they are known for, then SDI is practically a must do mod(as long as you have a VP with SDI input). Bypassing the Faroudja chip makes quite a difference.

Wasn't sure interlaced output showed MBE as I thought it was a by product of Faroudja's adaptive edge enhancement applied during de-interlacing?

John.

My Vantage was so quiet that I first thought they had removed the fan from my unit as there was this empty fan mounting hole at the rear of the unit!

Curious, I removed the cover to have a peek inside. I then saw a fan mounted above the Realta chip. To my relief, it was spinning, but quiet. On closer look, the fan was supported on top of the chip by four spring isolators, one on each of the four screws. The spring isolators could be bufffering the vibrations from the fan.

If your unit is too loud, see if they have those spring isolators fitted or have your dealer check it out with Calibre. The Vantage should not be any louder than a normal PC or laptop.

The fan in mine has 4 screws that go into the heatsink top. 2 of the heatsink corners (diagonally opposed) have threads that go into the main board, and there is a spring wrapped around each of these plastic threads.

i bought some thin isolation pads (made from silicon rubber) today and will be testing it out tomorrow to see if it helps reduce the vibrations.

Matt.G

Wasn't sure interlaced output showed MBE as I thought it was a by product of Faroudja's adaptive edge enhancement applied during de-interlacing?

John.
You could be right, it's been a long time since I went through the MBE problem. I do remember that Faroudja could never get it fixed in the series of chips they used on the Denons.

The more knowledgeable here can probably explain the details, I know Kris Deering is probably the resident expert on exactly what the issue was...I seem to recall that it had something to do with the NR features on the chip, but I'm not positive. I also seem to recall that even interlaced output exhibited the problem to a small degree, possibly due to the de-interlacing downstream(display, etc.), but I could be wrong on that. What I do know is that with SDI the problem is completely gone, and while it is a bit expensive to do, on an already expensive player, I've never regretted having it done. The 5900 along with a VP(using a DVDO VP30 currently) puts out a picture that many say is only topped by the Denon 5910. I'm very happy with it. :)

Do you know that for sure, Nick - They're not shipping yet?..Yup!
There is no cooling fan in Crystalio II. The only moving part is the optional hard drive.
Cheers,
Atman(Pixel Magic Forum Big Cheese)

http://www.pixelmagicforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3577&highlight=fan#post3577
I don't think it's a deal-breaker , though. There are lots of other attributes to the C2 that may persuade people to get one.

Nick

You could be right, it's been a long time since I went through the MBE problem. I do remember that Faroudja could never get it fixed in the series of chips they used on the Denons.


Could never get it fixed? or simly couldn't be @rsed fixing it?
My guess is that it would have cost them an obscene amount of $$$ to have every single unit out there with this chipset fixed properly, so they hoped and prayed it would just go away... of course that's just my bitter opinion as an owner of dvd player with such a problem.
I certainly know that i made numerous complaints to the australian distributor about it, and they flatly denied that there was a problem. They also denied knowing anyone else in Oz who had a DVD-A11 and complained to them about this problem. (i know i wasn't the only one bring this up with them).
Then end result for me is that i'll never buy products from either company again, simple.


Anyway.. back to the real topic at hand.

Matt.G

Could never get it fixed? or simly couldn't be @rsed fixing it?
My guess is that it would have cost them an obscene amount of $$$ to have every single unit out there with this chipset fixed properly, so they hoped and prayed it would just go away... of course that's just my bitter opinion as an owner of dvd player with such a problem.
I certainly know that i made numerous complaints to the australian distributor about it, and they flatly denied that there was a problem. They also denied knowing anyone else in Oz who had a DVD-A11 and complained to them about this problem. (i know i wasn't the only one bring this up with them).
Then end result for me is that i'll never buy products from either company again, simple.


Anyway.. back to the real topic at hand.

Matt.G
I think the end result was that they couldn't/wouldn't fix it in the generation FL23XX chip they were using at the time, from what I understand, the current FL23XX chip doesn't have the problem, but I'm with you, I'll never buy another Faroudja chip based product for awhile, at least until it's a proven fact that it's a solid performer. I think Denon sort of got stuck in the middle with the whole issue, yes, it was their choice to use the chip, but I don't think they had any idea that it was going to turn out like it did. I still like Denon products and look forward to a HiDef universal from them in the future. In the meantime my "fixed" 5900 works wonders for me.

Sorry for the off-topic posts.

(humble grin) I stand enlightened! :)

______________________________
(I'm not from around here, you know)

I think we all do, especially the more we hang around these forums:D!!!

Is this thread dead or has it moved somewhere else?

:confused: Andy

Dead?! :)

There are two main threads going for the Vantage right now, I think. The "unoffical support thread" and this one.

This one isn't getting as much use at the moment, as my little review is mostly done and more people are getting their hands on them.

But I stay tuned to it in case new readers have any questions - hopefully reports of it's demise may be exaggerated :) !

Just playing around with my VHD. I've been keeping an eye on the site, just in case i don't miss anything. :)

Hi Matt, Have you got any reply/solution from CalibreUK yet?

The image on my Marantz projector is off-centred with a 3% horizontal shift to the right when fed with a HDMI 720p 60Hz signal from the Vantage. I tried to shft the image to the left to try to centre the image, the image appeared to move towards the left but was actually being squeezed as the left position did not move and seemed locked.

I have been told it has something to do with the front and back porch of the signal from the Vantage and that I should do the adjustment on projector.

The problem is my Marantz projector does not provide for such adjustments. The strange thing is that my projector works perfectly when connected directly with HDMI 720p 60Hz from my Denon and Pioneer players.

Calibre are working hard on quite a few updates to include in upcoming firmwares, many of which are more than bug fixes.

The people i have dealth with at Calibre have been very responsive to the problems/suggestions i have raised, so definitely email them with as much detail as possible with your specific issues for them to try and troubleshoot at their end.

Matt.G

Hi Matt, Have you got any reply/solution from CalibreUK yet?

The image on my Marantz projector is off-centred with a 3% horizontal shift to the right when fed with a HDMI 720p 60Hz signal from the Vantage. I tried to shft the image to the left to try to centre the image, the image appeared to move towards the left but was actually being squeezed as the left position did not move and seemed locked.

I have been told it has something to do with the front and back porch of the signal from the Vantage and that I should do the adjustment on projector.

The problem is my Marantz projector does not provide for such adjustments. The strange thing is that my projector works perfectly when connected directly with HDMI 720p 60Hz from my Denon and Pioneer players.

Hmm.... So I am not the only one having this problem . I am also using a Marantz PJ . The problem appears only when outputting 720p 60hz thru hdmi . VGA output is fine though but when input hdmi 480i to Vantage , no image thru VGA out from vantage .

Hopefully calibre can release a new firmware for this issue soon .

VGA output is fine though but when input hdmi 480i to Vantage , no image thru VGA out from vantage .

Hopefully calibre can release a new firmware for this issue soon .

It appears to be an HDCP issue.

Calibre are working hard on quite a few updates to include in upcoming firmwares, many of which are more than bug fixes.

The people i have dealth with at Calibre have been very responsive to the problems/suggestions i have raised, so definitely email them with as much detail as possible with your specific issues for them to try and troubleshoot at their end.
What do you mean by "responsive"? I have sent them a bug report and a feature request and this is what I got for an answer on 3/27/06:
Thanks for the continued feedback, here and at AVforum, it's just what we need to be able to nail down the issues people are seeing with Vantage.

We are working hard at resolving some HDMI/HDCP/DVI implementation issues, pretty much as you have reported.

I will forward the "bug report" to the development team" for their consideration and await their feedback, I'll be back to you when I get something.
Though I am sure that they are hard at work, they have not informed me of any progress, updates, or feature implementations any further than what I just quoted. Have you managed to get in more direct contact with people who are providing you with better and more extensive info than what I have been given?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haw
Hi Matt, Have you got any reply/solution from CalibreUK yet?

The image on my Marantz projector is off-centred with a 3% horizontal shift to the right when fed with a HDMI 720p 60Hz signal from the Vantage. I tried to shft the image to the left to try to centre the image, the image appeared to move towards the left but was actually being squeezed as the left position did not move and seemed locked.

I have been told it has something to do with the front and back porch of the signal from the Vantage and that I should do the adjustment on projector.

The problem is my Marantz projector does not provide for such adjustments. The strange thing is that my projector works perfectly when connected directly with HDMI 720p 60Hz from my Denon and Pioneer players.



Hmm.... So I am not the only one having this problem . I am also using a Marantz PJ . The problem appears only when outputting 720p 60hz thru hdmi . VGA output is fine though but when input hdmi 480i to Vantage , no image thru VGA out from vantage .

Hopefully calibre can release a new firmware for this issue soon .

I had the same issue via HDMI input on my Sony Ruby. It was off to the right and could not shift the image to the left on the vantage. I was able to adjust it on the Ruby for the HDMI input, and it works perfectly now.

Very far from the ideal solution, enabling overscan on the PJ and the Vantage and/or shrinking/enlarging the image will at least fill the screen image until something else can be figured out.

I had the same issue via HDMI input on my Sony Ruby. It was off to the right and could not shift the image to the left on the vantage. I was able to adjust it on the Ruby for the HDMI input, and it works perfectly now.
I had the exact same same problem/solution, so it must be common...:(

Forcing the vantage to output 720p at 50hz looks fine when feeding the vantage NTSC film but the motion is lagging .

Now I have no choice but to output at 800x600 to my PJ , then use the pj to resize . Looks fine but not the best .......

Jason,

Before I tweaked my Ruby to the left I used a combination of overscan and forcing the image a little wider on the Vantage and it looked just as good. If you arent aware of some of the image being off screen, and assuming you have good masking or a velvet surface around your screen, you wont even notice it being to the right a little bit.

At least you get the benefit of the Vantage doing the scaling for you.

Hi Catdaddy , problem is the image is also squeeze . Will try the overscan today but I do not think it will help much since the image is sqeeze in the first place and not shifted everthing to the right .

One of my friends has tried using PC powerstrip and input Vantage 720p value , DVI out to his Marantz pj and this happens too . Using the default value correct the images . So I presume the vantage has given us the wrong value for NTSC output on 720p .

That's an interesting one - I never experienced it because my pj doesn't do 720p, only 1080p. I can probably test it out on my Samsung LCD over the weekend?

Just playing around with my VHD. I've been keeping an eye on the site, just in case i don't miss anything. :)
Thanks Chris! :)

BTW - If anyone's interested I've just about cracked having an HTPC as my "reference" source for DVD's to the Vantage. I'll be doing some final tests over the weekend to compare it's (the HTPC's) output to my 3910. It's not quite there yet, but I'll be testing a couple of thoughts before Monday.

It means I'll use it for DVD folders on my home network, as well as Audio, etc. So far, outputting native rate from the HTPC playback and letting the Vantage perform the deinterlacing and scaling instead, is FAR superior to letting the HTPC try it.

I've got a thread here, where I'll post the results from this weekend... including screenshots and measurements from at least three configurations - 3910 through Vantage; HTPC by itself; HTPC native rate through Vantage. I'll also be using the HQV (and other) test discs. Should be hours of fun ;)

(Yes, I realize that I've left out 3910 at native rate through Vantage, but 3910 doesn't support 480i over HDMI/DVI. I've also skipped 3910 by itself, as I already know that the Vantage does a better job than the 3910's on-board chipset).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=661993

Jason,

Before I tweaked my Ruby to the left I used a combination of overscan and forcing the image a little wider on the Vantage and it looked just as good.

Strange. With my Vantage, no amount of overscan will force the image to move to the left of the screen. The image or "active video window", as they call it, remains locked at the "3% horizontal shift to the right" position on the left of the screen. In other words, the 3% vertical blank bar on the left of the screen remains there all the time.

My view is that the timing data of the Vantage for HDMI 720p60Hz output is not set to the correct standard for 720p60Hz as the projector works with no issues when connected directly to the HDMI 720p60Hz output of a Pioneer, Marantz or Denon DVD player. This being the case and with the software flexibility of the Realta chip, it should not take any longer for Engineers to punch in the standard timing data and issue a firmware patch.

That would make sense, as the overscanned image would just grow within the "frame" output by the VHD. If the output timing is incorrect, then the frame would be in the wrong place and no overscanning should be able to fix that.

I don't like to get people's hopes up without good reason, but I think we've identified the problem in this case and are working to fix it.

Something will appear on the website, maybe not today....maybe not tomorrow, but soon..........


Thank you for your continued support for Vantage-HD, we do appreciate the sensible and articulate feedback we get from you guys and it makes the job just that little bit easier. :D

Cheers,

Zax

So far, outputting native rate from the HTPC playback and letting the Vantage perform the deinterlacing and scaling instead, is FAR superior to letting the HTPC try it.
Hmmm...What do you mean by "native rate from the PC"? AFAIK, the PC always scales to the desktop resolution, and if you mean 480i, I don't think a PC can output that resolution.

Hmmm...What do you mean by "native rate from the PC"? AFAIK, the PC always scales to the desktop resolution, and if you mean 480i, I don't think a PC can output that resolution.

The MyHD card can output native rate for 1080i, 720P, and 480P sources. Not for 480i since DVI does not (officially) support it. Not sure about its VGA port, but I do not think so. Graphics cards are progressive internally so outputting interlaced means it was de-interlaced and then converted to interlaced. I tested this with my 7800GT and Lumagen HDP. The PC output of a 1080i transport stream was a not recognizing film mode when the Lumagen got it, but the stream works fine when output from the MyHD DVI output.

- Rich

The MyHD card can output native rate for 1080i, 720P, and 480P sources.
What 480p sources? :confused:

Ok, I guess I'm confused by the terminology. I also use a MyHD card, and I label the "PC output" as meaning my primary video card and the MyHD card I label, well, "MyHD". When rdjam said "outputting native rate from the HTPC playback and letting the Vantage perform the deinterlacing and scaling instead" I assumed that he was talking about his primary video card, not his MyHD card, and AFAIK, the primary video card can not display DVDs at "native rate", meaning 720X480i, not 720X480p.

But even if rdjam was referring to HD on the MyHD card, it does not have a "native rate" output setting, so he would have to switch settings any time he displayed 720p HD material and then 1080i HD material. But I thought he was talking about DVDs, not HD, and even if you use the MyHD card for DVD playback, it can not output 480i either, so it still does not qualify as "native rate", or at least not as I understand it.

Have you had a look at his other thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=661993
Explained in more detail there

The PC output of a 1080i transport stream was a not recognizing film mode when the Lumagen got it, but the stream works fine when output from the MyHD DVI output.
It works fine with my 6600GT (using TheaterTek) outputting 1080i to my Vantage-HD - just as well as when I play the same .TS file through MyHD outputting 1080i. I wonder why the Lumagen has problems?

Ok, I read the thread and there is nothing new, and I am afraid that it will lead to a dead end. I don't think there is any way to output 480i directly out from the MPEG decoder to the video card without the use of some esoteric card to intervene and provide the desired 480i output.

The only thing in that thread that confuses me is the statement that video is ALWAYS output as progressive out of a PC's main video card. I thought that it could output interlaced video, but not as low a resolution as 480i, but if those guys are correct, then my belief is wrong. Then why is it that my Ruby (when it is connected directly) and the VantageHD (when I insert it in the chain) sees the incoming signal from my 6600GT as being 1920X1080 interlaced at 60hz when I set my desktop to 1080i, and both units see the signal as progressive when I set my desktop to 1080p? If the 6600 were not capable of delivering an interlaced signal, wouldn't the two units see it as 540p instead of 1080i?

What 480p sources? :confused:

Ok, I guess I'm confused by the terminology. I also use a MyHD card, and I label the "PC output" as meaning my primary video card and the MyHD card I label, well, "MyHD". When rdjam said "outputting native rate from the HTPC playback and letting the Vantage perform the deinterlacing and scaling instead" I assumed that he was talking about his primary video card, not his MyHD card, and AFAIK, the primary video card can not display DVDs at "native rate", meaning 720X480i, not 720X480p.

But even if rdjam was referring to HD on the MyHD card, it does not have a "native rate" output setting, so he would have to switch settings any time he displayed 720p HD material and then 1080i HD material. But I thought he was talking about DVDs, not HD, and even if you use the MyHD card for DVD playback, it can not output 480i either, so it still does not qualify as "native rate", or at least not as I understand it.

MyHD has a "Native" setting for its output. That means that it will output at the inputs resolution. There are ATSC can have 480P, originally FOX used this resolution, but it is still allowed. You are correct, DVDs are 480i so they are de-interlaced and output at 480P. The MYHD card is good for best for 1080i transport streams since the native setting will output 1080i letting you scaler do all the heavy lifting.

- Rich

It works fine with my 6600GT (using TheaterTek) outputting 1080i to my Vantage-HD - just as well as when I play the same .TS file through MyHD outputting 1080i. I wonder why the Lumagen has problems?

My Lumagen does not have problems it just operates operates in a less than optimial mode. Directly from the MyHD, the Lumagen can recognize the film mode 3:2 cadence. If you set your graphics card to 1080i, it is progressive internally, so it will de-interlace, scale, then output. In your case, interlace the output. This causes the Lumagen to process it in video mode. Your vantage may be more capably and will have better video processing so it may be hard to tell the difference but the best performance would be from the MyHD card.

-- Rich

MyHD has a "Native" setting for its output.
Cool! I learn something new every day! I had never scrolled down the list far enough to find it. :rolleyes: Thanks!

Hmmm...What do you mean by "native rate from the PC"? AFAIK, the PC always scales to the desktop resolution, and if you mean 480i, I don't think a PC can output that resolution.
Yep! That's exactly what I've got it doing - 480i and 576i.

Just finalising getting the HTPC decoder to give the best image. Final test runs this weekend - all then feed into the Vantage for the real work.

Just to re-iterate, the HTPC is definitely outputing 480i and the deinterlacing is disabled by selecting weave. The Vantage is identifying source as 480i and the pulldown appears to be working perfectly.

Only problem right now is horizontally a little soft - will be testing the resolution and the VHD processing with HQV and other test discs this weekend.

I want it coming from the HTPC so that calibration is better (after the projector itself is calibrated of course..

I think the HTPC video card is doing pixel-doubling to do the 480i - this is pretty widely supported, so it would haave to be the only way. 480i with single pixels is below the minimum DVI/HDMI bandwidth.

Have Calibre confirmed that their processor sees 480-doubled as 480i?
I still worry about 3:2 - does the vantage give any indication of whether 3:2 pulldown is active?

Have Calibre confirmed that their processor sees 480-doubled as 480i?I wouldn't have thought that they would have to. Although some DVI interfaces do support 480i/576i pixel-doubled, it is not in the DVI spec, and is not widely supported (tragic).

However, 480i/576i pixel-doubled IS an optional part of the HDMI spec, so if an HDMI port supports pixel-doubled SD, then that's how it should be done. I don't expect that should be an issue.

Nick

Agreed - it is a pretty standard implementation now. In fact, any deck that supports 480i over HDMI *must* use this method of transmission, as it is the only way. It's also pretty common for more recent DVI outputs to support it as well even though it is not officially in the DVI spec, but more as an extension of the HDMI spec into DVI implementations.

The Vantage definitely does support it. It would have been a MAJOR oversight had they not.

tryingtimes - just to clarify, this is not line-doubling in the old sense, where the horizontal lines are doubled. Rather, in a 720 x 480 image, the vertical 720 lines are doubled to 1440 x 480 (to exceed the minimum bandwidth requirement) with some sort of indicator to tell the receiving equipment what the signal truly is.

Strange. With my Vantage, no amount of overscan will force the image to move to the left of the screen. The image or "active video window", as they call it, remains locked at the "3% horizontal shift to the right" position on the left of the screen. In other words, the 3% vertical blank bar on the left of the screen remains there all the time.

My view is that the timing data of the Vantage for HDMI 720p60Hz output is not set to the correct standard for 720p60Hz as the projector works with no issues when connected directly to the HDMI 720p60Hz output of a Pioneer, Marantz or Denon DVD player. This being the case and with the software flexibility of the Realta chip, it should not take any longer for Engineers to punch in the standard timing data and issue a firmware patch.

I thought I remembered seeing an increase in the image to the left, with the overscan on from the Vantage .. it could have been from just the PJs overscan, but I am fairly certain it was from both. Those two alone were not enough to bridge the gap to the left, though, so I had to increase the image size as well.

You lose a little of the image, but the picture is a little larger and just as clear (except for the image being cut off a little.)

I was actually watching movies like that for a couple of days until I figured out that I had cut off some of the image and that the image was actually off to the right, and could not be brought all the way to the left. Thankfully, the Ruby was able to compensate for it. :)

My situation is same as Haw . The cut portion is locked .

I don't like to get people's hopes up without good reason, but I think we've identified the problem in this case and are working to fix it.

Something will appear on the website, maybe not today....maybe not tomorrow, but soon..........


Thank you for your continued support for Vantage-HD, we do appreciate the sensible and articulate feedback we get from you guys and it makes the job just that little bit easier. :D

Cheers,

Zax

Thanks Zax .

You guys are probably putting in HDMI, mine are components, and recently VGA, only. My firmware wa 1.1.1, too.

TweaK around with it, I know I was able to do it with some of the settings. Ill look at it again, I am pretty sure it was overscan a little and size a lot.

Yup,I am using the hdmi input and my ver is 1.1.2 .

Does increasing the size do nothing for you? As far as filling the screen, Jason?

Just tested component in , hdmi 720p/60hz out . No luck . Still got the squeeze image issue . Overscan cannot help either . Now the image is distorted(sqeeze a bit) so no point zoom it using pj zooming function . The shift function in my pj and vantage cannot help to adjust either . The black border is locked . There is no way for me outputing 720p/60hz thru hdmi to get correct images . Only pal dvds output at 50hz works great and fine .

Have you tested using AVIA/DVE to see if the circle still a circle after you do those overscan stuffs ? In my case, there is no way when outputting 720p/60hz thru hdmi .

*No way I can fill the whole screen unless zoom the picture using pj zooming feature but image is still squeeze . :o

I think I am seeing the same thing Jason described. I spent 4 hours last night and 3 this morning trying to get the picture to fill the screen. It is perfect vertically. Horizontally it has black bars on left and right side.

I only have NTSC to try no PAL as I live in the US.

I have tried a Sony 975 via HDMI, RGB progressive component, and a Oppo converting DVI to HDMI on the input. I am outputing 1080P to a Ruby via HDMI. I have tried the HDMI and DVI input on the Ruby and both are the same except the DVI wraps around the right side to the left. The HDMI input is perfectly centered.

I read somewhere someone was able to adjust with the Ruby to fill the screen but I cannot figure it out.

By the way the Sony 975 outputting 480i via HDMI produces a double/blurry image going through the Vantage. The 1080i looks perfect just horizontally squeezed. The Oppo looks the same.

So I guess the problem extend to 1080p/60hz hdmi out too . My pj accept few resolutions from Vantage thru hdmi and 720p/60hz is the only one that has the problem(did not test 1080p coz my pj cannot accept it) .

Hi Pelzl, I am using a pioneer 989 hdmi 480i which works fine,no double/blurry image.

By the way the Sony 975 outputting 480i via HDMI produces a double/blurry image going through the Vantage.

This was confirmed earlier. From what I read, not all players do 480i HDMI the same way. Some needs special treatment to be compatible.

Jason Yeo: so how does it compare to the A1XV ? since it can't do NTSC properly now, I guess u can only compare PAL disks. So in PAL are they the same (film/video)?

I read somewhere someone was able to adjust with the Ruby to fill the screen but I cannot figure it out.


I believe its in "Signal" tab. There is a h and v. If you lower the h, it moves the entire pic to the left.

Catdaddy67 I will try the h adjustment in the signal tab. I would think that would correct the wrap around I was seeing in the DVI input. I am not sure if that would correct the squeezed image.

I will also trying changing the output of the Vantage going into the Ruby to a lower resolution that should work but defeats the purpose. The internal scaler on the Ruby would kick in and scale to the whole panel size I think but then I would be using two scalers.

I do have one pal movie (the matrix) I just don't have a way to play it unless the Oppo is region free. I will hop over to that thread and see.

I would really like to know if playing a pal disc corrects the issue in my case as well.

Can anybody please tell me if the sharpness and color controls are enabled on the HDMI and component inputs?
Is it possible to select between PC (0-255) and video (16-235) levels on the HDMI inputs? (useful for sources with DVI output and PC/video levels)

Thanks.

Sorry for the slight OT but didn't want to open another Vantage thread. :)