My VANTAGE HD has ARRIVED!!!!! [Text View]

mark haflich

02-25-06, 08:53 AM

The biggest HDMI issue has been a HDMI/HDCP source communicating to an HDMI/HDCP display through a relayer (like a processor). The sequence is supposed to be a source asking the relayer are you an HDMI/HDCP display? The relayer is supposed to answer No, I am an HDMI/HDCP relayer. The source is then supposed to the send a second request in essence saying please relay my question to the display and send me its answer. The big problem has been sources which don't ask the second question because that sequence has no been enabled in the source. Relayers have now solved the problem by being enabled to lie to the source, saying it is the display and then asking the display itself whether it is HDMI/HDCP. Hopefully, the calibre does this or there indeed will be problems with any source that doesn't send the second request.

Also HDMI to DVI connections can cause problems. Adapters can cause problems and dedicated HDMI to DVI cables can cause problems. One brand cable might not work and another will. Weird.

Sam S

02-25-06, 11:21 AM

Can anyone confirm if it has any sort of Stretch mode for 4:3 pictures?

Thanks!
Oliver

I would like to know this as well. Not so much about stretching 4:3 content, rather the ability to blow up non-anamorphic 4:3 materia to preserve aspect ratio. i.e. cropping top and bottom of the image to fit in 16:9 window.

Most likely the answer is yes, but it would be nice if rdjam can confirm.

stlblufan

02-25-06, 06:10 PM

Interesting bit of information on the VHD from the Calibre website:

As is often the case with new and complex software-based products, Vantage-HD does have some known issues which we are working hard to fix, but for which there are work-arounds available.

Known issues are:

1. HDMI audio output - the embedded audio channels are unreliable when 1366x768 output modes are used and with certain HDMI display devices.
* Workaround - for multichannel audio use S/PDIF Coaxial or Optical audio output connections. For 2-channel audio only you can also use the analog audio output connections if preferred.

2. S-Video2 input cannot be reliably selected from the front panel input select button.
* Workaround - use the IR remote control instead of the front panel button, or use a different input channel instead of S-Video2.

3. Serial RS232 remote control port does not work
* Workaround - use the IR remote control instead. IR discrete codes are available for download from our website.

4. Rear-panel scratches - some batches of units show marking on the rear panel beneath the connector ident printing.
* Workaround - we are providing a printed self-adhesive rear label on request. This can be placed over the bare-metal rear plate to make it look much smarter. No equipment disassembly is required to fit this, but the signal/power connections must be temporarily removed.

Abbas

02-25-06, 07:09 PM

They have a file that is labeled as 'HDMI Connection Advice'.

In it, at the end, it says:

'We very strongly recommend that HDMI inputs are only used where essential for
compatibility with your source equipment and that the use of HDMI audio is
avoided unless demanded by your source equipment. This will avoid
unnecessary inter-operability/compatibility issues.
For all SD sources we recommend use of Component video since this is likely to
give a more reliable, trouble free connection and may also give a better image
quality. HDMI is only an 8-bit connection system whereas Vantage-HD has true
10-bit processing capability from input through to output on its analog video
channels.'

They are admitting that the unit has HDMI problems and are requesting HDMI NOT be used if possible.

Abbas

mark haflich

02-25-06, 07:34 PM

Great. And other procerssor manufacturers are withholding release pending HDMI solutions. Great! Who shall we condemn? I have it. Calibre for premature release to grab market share and the others for general production incompetency. Yea. That' it. Maybe we should be condemning the HDMI folks. Yea. Let's do that. What do you mean they don't give two fecal excretions. Thems da HDMI folks.

overcast

02-25-06, 07:51 PM

lol @ rear panel scratch fix oh and lol @ a known issue being HDMI

Dean Roddey

02-25-06, 08:05 PM

The big problem has been sources which don't ask the second question because that sequence has no been enabled in the source. Relayers have now solved the problem by being enabled to lie to the source, saying it is the display and then asking the display itself whether it is HDMI/HDCP. Hopefully, the calibre does this or there indeed will be problems with any source that doesn't send the second request.

Dang, what's the point in a standard if no one implements it, right? I mean that's not exactly a small niggling detail of the standard.

oink

02-25-06, 08:35 PM

lol @ rear panel scratch fix

LOL?

Hell, the fact that they even bothered with it earned a sale from me.
Now, that is attention to detail...and a desire to do the right thing for their customers! :)

c722

02-25-06, 10:38 PM

They have a file that is labeled as 'HDMI Connection Advice'.
Abbas

where is this file ??

sfogg

02-25-06, 10:54 PM

" HDMI is only an 8-bit connection system"

I though DVI was limited to 8bit but HDMI could do 10bit or maybe even 12 bit?

Shqawn

mark haflich

02-25-06, 11:39 PM

And oh yea. If its a component out for the best picture then why the F why no 1080p at 72hz? You see HDMI (but now they say that sucks) can't do 72 HZ but lil ol analog can no problem. So PLEEEZE then giva me 108p at 72 for film. But it is a mass market machine right and that market wants HDMI. WTF are they trying to say. Be a moran, settle for evrything at 50 or 60 and close our eyes to judder and oh yea use analog. I give up.

LJG

02-26-06, 12:37 AM

So I guess they gave up on HDMI and went the Theatersync route

Michael Grant

02-26-06, 12:45 AM

Mark---why isn't 48 good enough for you; i.e., why do you need 72? Are you running an analog "cheater" to a CRT? I probably knew that answer from a previous thread but I've had two beers tonight, forgive me.

stlblufan

02-26-06, 01:16 AM

where is this file ??

Here. (http://www.calibreuk.com/documents/vantage-hdmi.pdf)

Abbas

02-26-06, 02:30 AM

Here. (http://www.calibreuk.com/documents/vantage-hdmi.pdf)

That file has somewhat decreased my excitement with the Vantage HD. I have one on order but it almost gives me second thoughts about the purchase.

People said Calibre wanted to perfect the unit before they released it. It sure doesn't sound perfected to me.

APPARENT PROBLEM : I have not posted my impressions because initial set-up was a doddle (easy) between the Vantage and the Sony projector - BUT - when I try to connect my Denon DVD A1-XV via its HDMI out and digital co-ax audio, the whole system locks up - I cannot use the remote, the tray will not open and all the controls on the Denon are "dead" When I disconnect the Vantage everything returns to normal.

This problem is also listed in the file:

"Typically, HDMI compatibility issues manifest themselves in three
i) Loss of audio, or corrupted/distorted audio
ii) Loss of picture and audio or "HDCP patterns" on the
iii) Freezing of the HDMI source or the HDMI display"

It is like by telling us NOT to use HDMI, they are covering any problems that may occur with HDMI. I just hope it is not as bad as this file makes it out to be.

Abbas

oferlaor

02-26-06, 04:17 AM

danielo

02-26-06, 04:40 AM

HDMI is annoying the heck out of me.

Been experiencing tons of compatibility issues in the last few months as well. The resolution and HDCP protocols SUCK. No one is implementing them right because they're so damned complex...

This makes us so happy to see one of our best and moderator make such a statement. I feel sorry for the brands who have to try to get these things and upcoming things to work. All for contentmakers who fear us the people who gave them a whole new (dvd) market bigger than they could ever have hoped for. Their greed will be their downfall but the road there will be hell for us the lovers of movies and ht.

Daniel.

Catdaddy67

02-26-06, 05:59 AM

I just hope that its a HDMI version, release, issue.

If its HDMI 1.3, or whatever, that is the latest release .. if they are in full compliance with that and HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are as well (and they work).. then I will be able to live with getting my DVHS, Cable, and 777ES off of component.

On the other hand, if when I get my HD-DVD player and discs next month and they DONT work, and I have to live with 540p worth of video off of component, Im gonna be one pissed off bitch.

c722

02-26-06, 06:21 AM

That file has somewhat decreased my excitement with the Vantage HD.
Abbas

same here. or rather, worse, it made me feel very uncomfortable abt the integrity of this company. Yes HDMI has issues, no problem, we know abt it. But instead of admitting this problem it went on to say (ok, imply) HDMI is an inferior connection than analogue ?! and ask us to use analogue for SD sources ??! I mean, the whole purpose of a HDMI SD interlaced output is for such video processor product to exist. How can you categorily say use analogue only ? It's perfectly ok to say HDMI has issues. It's even ok (at least for me) to release it knowing there is HDMI problem (who doesn't ?), but please dun tell the world of videophiles component connection is better than HDMI for SD sources. It's almost like : since I can't get it, it's bad. No matter the reason it can't get HDMI issues right is not really its fault.

I just hope that document is from some real ill-informed PR department, trying to be smart to cover some issues, which were never really their fault anyway.

EDIT: okay it's late, I'm getting a bit worked up. I know it's not this company's fault. I just find this statement hard to swallow:

HDMI is only an 8-bit connection system whereas Vantage-HD has true
10-bit processing capability from input through to output on its analog video
channels.

it's implying we should use analogue inputs because vantage "has true 10 bit" blah blah and HDMI is only "8-bit". (No need to dwell into whether HDMI is just 8 bit or not. Not even relevant) I think everyone here would have thought the reason we have to use analogue is because of HDMI compatibility issues, not because its analogue input is superior.

latepmas

02-26-06, 06:28 AM

[QUOTE=mark haflich]Relayers have now solved the problem by being enabled to lie to the source, saying it is the display and then asking the display itself whether it is HDMI/HDCP. Hopefully, the calibre does this or there indeed will be problems with any source that doesn't send the second request.QUOTE]

The problem with this is the "Key Revocation Lists", if your VP is placed on this list by the HDCP licensing body the cryptographic Authentication and Key Exchange (AKE) wont be passed and so no video will be sent from the source. :mad:

Catdaddy67

02-26-06, 06:54 AM

The problem with this is the "Key Revocation Lists", if your VP is placed on this list by the HDCP licensing body the cryptographic Authentication and Key Exchange (AKE) wont be passed and so no video will be sent from the source.

latepmas,

Are you saying that something will flag your own specific VP or all of the VPs like the one you own? For example, will it be all VP30s if I was using a HDMI repeater with a VP30, or just my VP30 (my serial number?)

Or are you saying that this pertains to some specific workaround that could be employed by any manufacturer?

Catdaddy67

02-26-06, 06:57 AM

Sorry, if that doesnt make sense too much .. my four month old woke me up this morning and now I cant go back to sleep.

Bob Sorel

02-26-06, 08:19 AM

rdjam

02-26-06, 08:30 AM

Right - about to start setup of the unit. Had a very busy day yesterday and had to bite my enthusiasm for a while.

Have taken it out of the box and laid everything out - There is the unit, and a 5v external power supply such as a laptop would use, and a manual and warranty card.

The unit itself is metal but pretty light.

Have done a first pass on the manual - it seems the unit will allow you to associate the audio inputs with specific video inputs, which I need. Not sure yet whether it counts the two HDMI ports as separate audio inputs from the two digital.

The manual states that the unit does indeed perform HDMI "Pass thru requests" to the display device, so it would appear that this feature is implemented. You can set the menu to enable or disble this feature, depending on the capabilities of your display.

There is mention of Gamma remapping in the manual, but no walk through or images, so I'll have to wait for setup to see what is on offer. The research I did before purchase indicated that you can choose between various gamma modes, but could not enter your own custom Gamma curve. I'm assuming that this is still the case, but it's one of he areas I'll be checking out in more detail.

I have two units that I'll be testing the VHD with - one is my 32" Samsung LCD TV, which uses HDMI and has a 1366x768 panel. The other is my JVC DiLA HD2K which is 1920 x 1080. The audio for the HD2K will be handled by my Denon AVR-3805.

I'll be setting the VHD to the Samsung first, for two reasons. The VHD defaults to 640 x 480 display from the factory, and I'll need to set it up on something other than the HD2K anyway, which doesn't bother with that res. Second, I expect less issues getting the sound out on the Samsung, than playing with splitting between the HD2K and Denon.

Alright - I'll check back as I go along.....

rdjam

02-26-06, 08:40 AM

I think I will wait until my Vantage HD arrives and I connect everything up before I complain about issues that may or may not exist. This group is just a little too anxious to cut off Calibre's balls before anyone even tries out one of their products. First you complain that it is taking way too long for the product to be released, and now you are complaining about HDMI problems before you even know if they exist.

And BTW, I didn't see anything in print from Calibre suggesting the use of analogue outputs, but I did read where they suggested the use analogue inputs for SD sources. This is a far cry from claiming that analogue is superior to digital, or any other such claims.

Also, the issues regarding audio and HDMI have been well known for over a year, and from what I understand it is most definitely an issue with HDMI itself, not the manufacturers' implementation of it (Calibre or anyone else's). Take a look back at the first few pages of this thread where Calibre talked about this, while also mentioning that the vast majority of people will probably want to send their audio via S/PDIF separately in order to assure that HDMI won't reduce the audio to 2 channels. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't want my audio to go through HDMI, even if it worked perfectly. I prefer to have complete control of the digital audio signal through S/PDIF and my pre/pro.

HDMI is your enemy, not Calibre!

Maybe I'll feel different once my Vantage HD gets here, as all of my connections will be via DVI/HDMI (adding even more possibility for problems), but I am going to take a "wait and see" attitude until I try it out for myself. Believe me, I will report whatever happens good or bad!

I agree Bob - No one should jump to conclusions yet. I'll be trying both HDMI and DVI/HDMI with my two displays, so hopefully I'll be able to shine some light on the status. The issue really has been the HDMI standard itself, not the manufacturers.

And I probably will handle the audio separately also, as I am doing now with my Faroudja 1010 box - although I'm sure that I'll find one or two of my source players that will end up working perfectly through HDMI.

I'll update as I go along with the setup today.

*** UPDATE ***

Having now used the Vantage HD for a couple of weeks now, I can confirm that the HDMI inputs function just fine.

The problems that some have reported here do exist, but my experience is that they result from the implementation of HDMI on certain source players (like my Denon 3910) and are mostly related to the audio.

I have found no fault with the Vantage and I think that Calibre's statement on the matter was simply covering their bases and forewarning users of an issue they bump into but is not the Vantage's fault.

It also can operate in both "receiver" and "relayer" HDMI modes on each HDMI input.

mark haflich

02-26-06, 08:51 AM

Bob. I'd rather that you didn't get one and thus not complain, than for you to get one and then complain. ;)

Reread my posts. I think I said blame the HDMI folks, not the processor manufacturers. I have no problem using component in or SDI in for my current sources including HD. I don't think HDMI is inherently better than high quality analogue. Long transmission lengths on analogue can be a problem but I do use good solutions for my CRT FP. My BITCH with Calibre is this output at 50 or 60 hz only at 1080p. I want 72HZ for 1080p analogue and there is no reason they can't give it. 1080p 60 for film, sucks. Maybe the masses who don't know any better will buy it. yea. The masses will buy a $3k processor. Sure. And custom installers and calibrators will push it on their customers, telling him it is great on film and video. Duh./ Why are my customers willing to spend $3K to get their qualia 004 modified to get 1080p 60? They have a fine resolution for film but want better video. You see this is all about making things better, not saying one output resolution and refresh rate fits all. If that's the case, why buy it. Don't sell me racing tires for a VW bus.

Bob Sorel

02-26-06, 09:12 AM

My BITCH with Calibre is this output at 50 or 60 hz only at 1080p. I want 72HZ for 1080p analogue and there is no reason they can't give it.
Hi Mark,

I understand your gripe, but Calibre has NEVER claimed support for 1080p @ 72 hz, so this is nothing new. Your recent posts make this seem like it is a new discovery, when in fact it was discussed to death many months ago. And raising this issue again now, when the VHD is finally released, just strikes me more as a "sour grapes" attitude for support of a resolution that is needed only by CRT owners/users (though I agree that it would be nice, but not necessary to have 24 or 48 hz support). I think we can all agree that if the VHD does not meet your personal requirements, then you should not buy it...;)

MC Maniac

02-26-06, 10:50 AM

I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't want my audio to go through HDMI, even if it worked perfectly. I prefer to have complete control of the digital audio signal through S/PDIF and my pre/pro.

I do agree - however- do we know for sure that we will be able to get the full bitrate uncompresssed new 7.1 audio formats from a Blu-ray player from any output other than HDMI 1.3?

rdjam

02-26-06, 11:44 AM

OK - Had a bit of a delay, as girlfriend had tidied up my cables box and couldn't remember where she had stored it, so I had to run out and buy a couple more HDMI cables! Oh well :-)

Have connected the unit together with my Samsung LCD (1366 x 768) and connected my JVC D-Theater DVHS Deck HM DH5U (the newer HDMI model) and my trusty Denon 3910 (also via HDMI) - I may as well go for the top end and smoke any problems early so they don't dog me later.

BTW - the power supply for the Vantage HD is dual-voltage, which is good for me, as it is likely to travel from the UK with me later this year.

Powered up the Samsung LCD and the VHD - Success so far.

The VHD defaults to 640 x 480 on startup.

The Samsung recognizes and displays the VHD on both the HDMI ports and the respective PC RGBVH monitor ports at 640 x 480 - I like this about the VHD, it has PC compatible output also - Had I had any trouble getting menus up via HDMI, I would have been able to switch over to the PC port. I'm guessing that HDCP material will not be allowed to run out of the PC port though.

cont...

John Kotches

02-26-06, 11:58 AM

I do agree - however- do we know for sure that we will be able to get the full bitrate uncompresssed new 7.1 audio formats from a Blu-ray player from any output other than HDMI 1.3?

PCM output up to 7.1 is in the 1.1 spec.

rdjam

02-26-06, 11:58 AM

Cont...

Although I am based in UK - I have material from both NTSC and PAL sources.

So since I am using a European, PAL-based version of the Samsung (LE32R41BX), I will try all the settings at 59.94 Hz first and try to break it...

The menu of the VHD is quite simple, and I'm surprised at how easy it is to choose all the various settings.

It also has a nice feature- if I choose an incompatible video mode and the LCD doesn't like it and won't display it - all I doo is press two buttons on the front of the VHD together and it instantly changes back to the default settings of 640 x 480, so that I get back the TV and try another setting. Nice touch.

OK - the VHD has TWO different 1366 x 768 modes, as the manual says that some units prefer one over the other.

So, still at 59.94, I choose mode (1) - no dice, the Samsung doesn't like it through HDMI. No probs, I'll try mode (2), again the Samsung says "Unsupported Mode" - no panic, since I expected this from the Samsung since it is PAL based. I was hoping it would support NTSC, as I intend to use it for both.

But before I move to 50 Hz, let me try those two modes through the PC ports. Ok, same message on mode (1) - but AHAH, mode (2) DOES work, although there black bands down the sides.

It is possible that the menus on the VHD are 4:3 aspect ratio, so I'll try playing a DVD at this point to find out...

*** UPDATE ***

The problems I had connecting the Vantage HD to the Samsung LCD later turned out to be that the Samsung did not support HDMI input at its native panel resolution. I had naively assumed that the Samsung should OBVIOUSLY be able to do this - but, of course that was not the case.

Once I used HDMI 720p and 1080i from the Vantage, the Samsung was just fine at both 50 and 60 Hertz.

The Samsung was a little dicey on analog inputs, but VHD was flawless.

rdjam

02-26-06, 12:43 PM

OWCH... That wasn't fun..

OK, before I go any further, this is probably an HDMI standards and compatinility thing. The Denon is over a year old, so is likely thinking something different in terms of HDMI than the VHD.

Whatever it is, the Denon locks up good and proper as soon as I plug HDMI into the VHD. And I'm talking locked-up, meaning I have to plug it out of the wall to get it back.. Another person on this site reported the same thing with another high-end Denon unit, so I'm curious...

Anyway, I'm clever, so I take the DVI port from the Denon, using a DVI-HDMI adapter cable and plug it into the HDV - I figure this way, the Denon will not try to communicate HDMI buddy-buddy messages with the VHD, and therefore won't get confused and lock up.

Well, I'm correct on that point, but no picture - let me check to ensure that I have DVI out selected on the Denon...

OK.. I have used the front-panel Select/Format buttons on the Denon to go through DVI and chosen 480/576/p as well as 720p and 1080i and there is no good outcome - the picture does come up for a couple of seconds while I make each mode switch, and is moving properly and looks good, then frustratingly disappears moments later, not to reappear until I make another mode switch - then disappears again.

Welcome to the bleeding edge.. (NOTE - this turned out to be HDCP issue, and was overcome by changing the HDMI input mode for that input, in the Vantage menu, to accomodate the Denon's HDMI implementation)

(NOTE - I later got the Denon working with the VHD, however, I had to set the CHD HDMI config as "repeater". Also the Samsung needed to receive video at 1280 x 720 - 720p. Also, do not have analog and HDMI plugged into the VHD from the same source unit - either the source unit or the VHD doesn't like this very much and the picture will come on briefly, but then disapper. This was true also of DVI and analog - watch out for it).

Anyway, S-Video seems to work just fine - and I've set the S-Video to use the TOS-Link 1 input on the VHD. All great, except I'm using the PC link to the Samsung LCD and there is no Audio from the VHD to the LCD. heh heh..

The Vantage HD does have a TOS-Link out as well, so I could perfectly well connect the Samsung from this - EXCEPT, I have now discovered for the first time that the Samsung does not have an Optical or coax audio input!! Holy moley - I had no idea that modern sets like this were shipping without at least ONE TOS-Link input on the back.

So end of story - if you set VHD to output 1280 x 720 (720p) to the Samsung, all will work well. However, do not have both analog and digital lines plugged into the VHD at the same time from a Denon 3910 player.

Cont....

rdjam

02-26-06, 01:24 PM

OK - component works great.

The Denon 3910 does not put out an interlaced SD signal over HDMI so I am stuck with 480p/576p over HDMI or interlaced over component.

My initial impression is that the picture looks richer and the colors better/truer over HDMI, but take the with a pinch of salt, as the analog may need a lot of fine tuning on my Denon.

As it stand tho, I'm not sure there's really going to be a huge difference between the Denon deinterlacing to 480p/576p or having the VHD do it.

So as I really got th VHD to deinterlace 1080i, I'll probably stick with progressive standard def from the Denon for now and save the effort for the 1080i sources.

cont...

rdjam

02-26-06, 01:39 PM

I couldn't resist trying a PAL DVD before moving on to the DVHS...

One thing I like about about the Vantage HD is that is shows you a realtime message on screen showing you the input and output frequencies each time one of them changes.

This display goes away after a couple of seconds - I believe the time it shows is configurable in the Vantage...

GOOD NEWS for one fellow who asked what the frame-rate conversion is like - Well, in playing NTSC DVDs (source into the Vantage at 50Hz) the Vantage can output 59.94 Hz and it is dead smooth - I really had expected some judder! Really impressive on this point.

Now I haven't tested a native 50Hz source like a home video camera, but a PAL movie DVD.

I'm not an expert, but for it to be this smooth, is it converting back to 24 fps and then upconverting to 50Hz??

cont...

rdjam

02-26-06, 02:05 PM

Now I really wish I could get the Samsung to accept a signal from the VHD at the LCD panel's native res of 1366 x 768, as that would make the most of the LCD.

However the Samsung will not accept any other modes, it seems.

I'm not sure that the Samsung can actually accept any signal at all at this Rez - I'll have a look through the Samsung manual later on to see what I can do.

(Note - if any one has an answer to this please let me know, by all means)

ANYWAY - onwards and upwards ---

I didn't buy the Vantage HD to run the Samsung anyway - I bought it for the JVC HD2K downstairs, so let's get on with it!

I'm going to take a complete gamble and just set the VHD to the 1080p mode and plug it in to the HD2K - cross my fingers and see if it work without a whole load of drama.

Wishfull thinking I know :-) - but lets see...

*** UPDATE ***

The Vantage HD worked perfectly and locked in to the HD2K from these settings, but, as you'll see below, I was tired and forgot to set the HD2K to 50 Hz when I initially connected it downstairs. :) Then I had to wait for the end of a show my girlfriend was watching when it dawned on me! :)

Cont...

TorAtle

02-26-06, 02:17 PM

Great report! Keep it coming...

I hope to hear more about the frame rate conversion. The manual says "can cause slight degradation in motion performance". CAN and SLIGHT, now I like the sound of that. I just find it strange that this feature seems to be downplayed a whole lot if it is really good.

I thought frame rate converters typically was broadcast equipment and thus very expensive. Is it an algorithm from the Teranex box-of-tricks?

LJG

02-26-06, 02:32 PM

rdjam

02-26-06, 02:35 PM

I have revised the review here and above, as I finally figured out the problems I was having were related to the resolution I was feeding the Samsung and also a couple of settings in the VHD and also that something would go wrong if analog and Digital signals were fed at the same time from the same source.

So ignore most of below...

I gave the DVHS a quick whirl while the VHD was still connecting to the Samsung to make sure I knew the best ways to get the inputs working before I moved everything to the JVC.

Guess what - when I output at default resolution of 640 x 480, everything is fine, but when I move up to higher rez's the same issue recurs as when I used the HDMI from the Denon - it shows the picture great for a couple of seconds and then the screen goes blank.

( Note - this was due to two sources at once issue and I overcame it later - I believe it is something to do with HDCP acting up. On pluggin the HDMI in only, it was just fine)

Component from the DVHS deck is fine - Samsung works best with this at 1280 x 720 output from VHD to Samsung via the HDMI connector. The audio is taken from the DVHS to the VHD using TOS-Link, and comes through on the Samsung perfectly.

THIS IS GOOD - first real success with the unit. OK - so 1280 x 720 is not the best I should get from the Samsung, but it's still not bad.

The deinterlacing looks pretty good - picture quality is better than I've seen on the Samsung box yet - looks far better than putting the DVHS straight into the Samsung, so the VHD is clearly doing a better job than the scaler built into the Samsung.

I'm not going to comment much on picture quality until I have the basic problems licked and get everything pixel for pixel on the HD2K. I figure I'll do all the tuning and testing later.

OK - WHOAA!

YES - I think I've cracked the Samsung - HDMI is now working perfectly from the DVHS, with Audio and everything. Magic number is the 1280 x 720 (720p) output from the Vantage HD to the Samsung.

Lovin' it...

OK - we are truly ready for the HD2K..

Cont...

Dean Roddey

02-26-06, 02:45 PM

CO_JCD

02-26-06, 02:53 PM

Rdjam,

Thanks for testing the frame rate conversion. You said, "Well, in playing NTSC DVDs (source into the Vantage at 50Hz) the Vantage can output 59.94 Hz and it is dead smooth" - I assume this was just a typo, ie I assume you were referring to PAL DVDs as you had stated in the first line?

My main interest is in converting Freeview to 59.94 Hz so that I can have Freeview output on a US Sony 34XBR910 direct view HDTV that will only operate at US frame rates. (I used to live in the US until recently; I have now returned to the UK with all my US HD equipment!)

Thanks for the good work - interested to hear how everything goes with the HD2K. Of my two DVD players, one (an old JVC) unit actually output PAL DVD's as NTSC which looked fairly OK on the 34" direct view TV yet looked poor on a HD2K - native 50Hz from a Panasonic RP91 DVD player was noticeably better.

Cheers

John

JlgLaw

02-26-06, 03:00 PM

Rdjam,
Thanks for the posts, we're reading, keep it coming!
Jim

cajieboy

02-26-06, 03:15 PM

Yeah Rdjam, keep'em comin...best thread I've read in awhile w/real live setup issues.

latepmas

02-26-06, 03:18 PM

latepmas,

Are you saying that something will flag your own specific VP or all of the VPs like the one you own? For example, will it be all VP30s if I was using a HDMI repeater with a VP30, or just my VP30 (my serial number?)

Or are you saying that this pertains to some specific workaround that could be employed by any manufacturer?

Sorry I wasn't very clear myself, in a true relayer system the key for the HDCP encryption is obtained from the display via the VP, this is given to the manufacturer of the display by the HDCP licensing body and is unique to that manufacturer, this now sets the encryption value for the video data to be sent from the source via the VP to the display, this should work, ignoring any problems with timing/timing out EDID etc. Any other workaround that involves using a key originating from the switcher or VP can be made invalid and no longer work if its included in the "key Revocation List" held on the HD-DVD/blu ray disc or cable box. A unit doing this would have the key value placed on this list for attempting to circumvent the HDCP security measures.

ailean

02-26-06, 03:29 PM

latepmas

02-26-06, 03:38 PM

Rdjam

Do you have the HQV test disc to check the deinterlacing and how well the video filters work?

rdjam

02-26-06, 04:01 PM

rdjam

02-26-06, 04:04 PM

Do the HDMI folks have no testing suite or validation process for hardware that claims to be HDMI compliant? It seems like there couldn't have been any real validation of these implementations or any reasonably full featured test suite that manufacturers could run against their implementation to insure that it is complaint. That would seem like a Compatibility 101 type requirement for such a system.

Hi Dean, yes, it gave a bit of trouble but I seem to have it working better now. Don't know why the Denon kept locking up though, but changing HDMI Audio Config to "Repeater" and removing simultaneous analog input sorted the problems. Notably - the JVC DVHS deck never barfed in that manner.

rdjam

02-26-06, 04:05 PM

RDjam:

If its not too much trouble could you take a quick look into information menu and let me know what the firmware revision is, the FPGA revision and standby micro revision # I would like to compare them with the Theatersync firmware etc.

Thanks

Will do... I am struggling a bit with the HD2K right now, but as soon as I have it connected back to the Samsung I'll scope it out. :-)

NOTE - It turned out I had forgotten to set the HD2K to proper clock, as noted above :)

rdjam

02-26-06, 04:10 PM

Rdjam, I think you'll find the HDMI issues you've seen so far aren't faults. Unless you use HDMI out of the VHD you won't be able to use HDMI in to it. This is part of the HDCP/HDMI licensing, I think any output res over VGA on the analogue has to be disabled.

And the HDMI to the display is probably the fact that pretty much all panels have very poor chance of excepting native rate on HDMI (which is why I'm waiting for 1080p panels :rolleyes: ).

You should have better luck on the 1080p PJ so long as you use DVI/HDMI.

Sounds good so far, try watching some broadcast news with tickertape to see just how smooth the 50-60Hz convertion is.

Thanks for that - it makes sense - when I was having the most trouble was when I was feeding the Samsung via the PC monitor port, so this would match your statement.

No luck getting the HD2K to accept signal from VHD yet - the HD2K is VERY picky about the precise timings it is looking for, so I may have to call calibre tech support tomorrow

NOTE - yes it still hadn't dawned on me - my fault here - realized later on.

rdjam

02-26-06, 04:11 PM

Rdjam

Do you have the HQV test disc to check the deinterlacing and how well the video filters work?

No I don't have one - does anyone know how I can get hold of one?

rdjam

02-26-06, 04:15 PM

Well - that's about it for me tonight with the Vantage HD.

Was not able to get the HD2K working the first time around, so I'll be on the phone to calibre tomorrow to go for the next step.

Feel free to ask any questions, tho. I'll be up for a little while more checking through the manual again.

All the best.

rdjam

02-26-06, 04:27 PM

Ok - this is really embarassing. When I hooked up the VHD to the HD2K earlier I forgot to set the 2K to 60p.

(Slaps forehead AGAIN, but not as hard as the first time)

Realizing this, halfway through a movie I was watching with my girlfriend, I was forced to wait until it was finished.

As soon as I set the 2K to 60p, it locked onto the Vantage HD instantly.

I won't comment too much on the PQ yet, becuase I have to hook up more equipment and it is midnight here now, so I'll continue the experiment tomorrow with AVIA and all that.

But let me say this - the deinterlacing is FANTASTIC. On 1080i from DVHS, the F 1010 I had till now did a great job on vertical or near vertical lines, but near horizontal lines always had the jaggies because it was just combining the fields - as most other boxes did till now also.

I never realized how much detail was missing till now.

It's like I just got a new projector with twice the resolution.

As far as PQ is concerned, I had done a lot to balance the F 1010 with the 2K, so I have a little work cut out for me. But my initial impression is that the colors from the VHD are truer than the 1010, with less of the greenish tinges in the mid range tones.

Ok - any box that deinterlace 1080i will do the same for the clarity, so the real test is going to be how it handles all the source equipment and materials tomorrow. I can hardly wait.

Ironic that my Samsung 32" LCD gave me more trouble than the 2K.

Just spent the last hour watching some bits from Master and Commander, I Robot, The Island, Alien, Alien Resurrection, Teminator 3, The Italian Job, X-Men, Last Samurai, Spiderman, SWAT, Mission Imposible, Fifth Element, IMAX Super Speedway and Matrix reloaded.

Have to say I haven't seen it put a foot wrong yet on the deinterlacing.

I like it. I'll start using the test material tomorrow, but I'll sleep well on this lot. Good box so far - was only let down by my own mistakes.

NOTE - I just CANNOT overstate how fantastic this unit is at deinterlacing 1080i. Even now it continues to blow me away. Really, really fantastic. I've deliberately waited two weeks before adding this, as it could easily have been "new car syndrome" unless I spent more time with it.

Catdaddy67

02-26-06, 10:15 PM

I have been out of town all weekend and just got home to look at all your posts, rdjam. Thanks a ton. Im optimistic now and cant wait to get my hands on my vantage. :)

madshi

02-27-06, 02:35 AM

@rdjam, thanks for your reports - much welcome! One little question from me: Is the fan audible?

rdjam

02-27-06, 03:36 AM

@rdjam, thanks for your reports - much welcome! One little question from me: Is the fan audible?

You know, I didn't notice it at all yesterday or last night last night, but I have the unit on my couch, out of the rack and this morning when I came downstairs and sat beside it I noticed it for the first time.

It is quiet, the noise is more like a laptop would make, quite subdued.

Certainly nothing on the order of a PC or anything.

latepmas

02-27-06, 02:21 PM

No I don't have one - does anyone know how I can get hold of one?

http://www.hqv.com/

Under "Benchmark DVD"

htguy1

02-27-06, 04:40 PM

Dave Harper

02-27-06, 04:50 PM

Amen to that Mark:)!!!

rdjam

02-27-06, 05:50 PM

Ok - I've been playing around with some more PAL DVDs...

Now I'm not going to say this is a definitive statement, but the 1080p picture that the VHD produces from 576p from the Denon seems a bit fuzzy - just not very sharp. (Yes, it is a digital signal from the DVI port).

I haven't done massive experimenting yet, but I seem to get a much sharper picture when I let the Denon output 720p and have the VHS take that to 1080p.

Can't really explain this observation - infers that the Silicon Optics chip (is it a fli 2300 in the Denon?) does a better job of deinterlacing and scaling SD material than the Realta?

Have notice the same thing on my Sky Satellite receiver, which I am outputting over S-Video at 576i. The image from the VHD is noticeably softer than the picture I used the get from my F 1010.

hmmm, anyone have any thoughts?

rdjam

02-27-06, 05:51 PM

OK - I take that last bit back - I've adjusted the brightness, contrast and played with the filters, and I now have a picture that beats what I was getting with the F 1010. I'm using a DVD that I've considered a reference for light, dark, sharpness and shadows - Flight of the Phoenix, in PAL.

Very satisfied by the picture now - better than I had before - I'm wondering whether I'll be able to get much out of Sky, but I'll give it a shot next.

rdjam

02-27-06, 05:52 PM

I've now finished setting up the DVD player with DVE and AVIA and I'm very impressed.

The VHD is capable of driving more saturation and contrast to the 2K than I was able to get cleanly out of the F1010.

I am driving the VHD at 720p from the Denon, as I still seem to get the best sharpnes that way.

I've noticed that once I had set up all my contrast, brightness and color settings, that if I switched video modes on the Denon on-the-fly during play (ie back to 576p) the VHD, upon rescanning, appeared to switch back to default settings. If I opened the settings menu, the settings still showed the correct values but if I moved any of the settins by one point, the video would suddenly correct itself to the settings shown.

Interesting little bug, but relatively easy to get used to.

Am now going to run DVE 1080i on the DVHS...

timbrooksbank

02-27-06, 06:10 PM

Just wanted to clarify some items for you AVS guys, hopefully this will be of help to you:

i) Native PAL is 576i and native NTSC is 480/484i, so if you are outputting 576p or 480p then this has already been de-interlaced by your DVD player. You can check this by looking at the menus to find out if the line rate is approx 15KHz (i) or approx 31KHz (p).

Often, HDMI players refuse to output "i" formats on their HDMI connectors, which is very annoying of them since to get best performance you ought to let Vantage-HD do all the processing, including the de-interlacing. This can be a reason for using Component instead of HDMI since you generally have more control of Component via the menus on your DVD itself.

ii) Which is better, HDMI or Component? Well, you can argue this forever, we all have our own opinions, but what matters is which works best for you in your own install with your own gear. If you get best picture performance with HDMI then go ahead and use it, but if you get best performance with Component then use that instead.

We ourselves have tried many DVDs from Denon, LG, Samsung, Toshiba, Neodigits (very problematic!), Panasonic, Sony and several other makes, each with varying results in terms of how "HDMI Compatible" they were. My own personal view is that I prefer Component video, but that is my view and you are entitled to think I'm wrong of course, in which case go ahead and use HDMI, that's what we put the inputs there for!

We are not stating that HDMI is useless, or that our HDMI implementation is useless, but we are observing that some SD-originated sources don't work terribly well on HDMI. This is not the case for true HD sources where use of HDMI is often mandatory. However, these tend to be newer product designs with better inter-operability.

I hope you will enjoy using Vantage-HD and appreciate the picture it produces. If you have any specific queries about product you have purchased or intend to purchase, and cannot determine the answers from our website http://www.calibreuk.com then please email vantage@calibreuk.com so we can assist you.

mark haflich

02-27-06, 06:46 PM

Tim. Thank you for posting here. I think I can speak for all in saying this. We welcome you and need you. :)

Bob Sorel

02-27-06, 06:50 PM

Hi Tim!

Thanks for the info! In getting ready for my VHD to arrive, last night I did a little testing with my Panasonic S-97 player and found that if I "dumbed" the HDMI output down to DVI and fed the signal to the DVI input of my Ruby, then it worked just fine, but if I fed the same HDMI output (dumbed down again) to my DVI switch, and then fed the switch to the HDMI input on my Ruby - I got no picture, so before the VHD even gets here I can see that there will be issues, especially since I am dumbing the signal down to DVI. Tonight I will try feeding the HDMI output of the S-97 directly to the HDMI input of the Ruby so that I can ascertain whether HDMI will work with the Ruby at all. I think that knowing the limitations of your own system in advance will go a long way to predicting the problems that might arise with the VHD.

What I am wondering is what are the implications inherent in taking the HDMI output of the VHD and feeding it to the DVI input on the projector. Since everything seems to run much better using DVI, might it be a good idea to use a HDMI -> DVI adapter just before going into the display device for those of us who have both HDMI and DVI inputs on our displays?

Also, in regard to feeding 480i over HDMI, it seems that Oppo will be releasing their new player, the 970H, soon (next month?), and one of its main features is its ability to output 480i over HDMI, thus allowing the VHD to do both the scaling and deinterlacing. This will certainly be my next DVD player, as at its $200 price it has a wonderful MPEG decoder and a host of nice features.

My only other question is "When will it get here?" :D I thought the units were supposed to arrive in the states on Friday, but I haven't heard any confirmations as yet. I'm looking forward to using your new product with great anticipation!

rdjam

02-27-06, 07:04 PM

Hi Tim, Thanks for your post and also for a great product!

You make a good point - when I was comparing the SD sources before, I forgot that I had the Denon DVD player hooked up to my old processor via component.

I haven't spent much time using component on the VHD yet, as it is a bit more time consuming to get all the levels right.

The VHD is absolutely spectacular at deinterlacing 1080i - I'm watching some of Fifth element from a 1080i tape right now. I'm excited that I'm finally seeing the full potential of my projector. What a great product.

Thanks again!

danielo

02-27-06, 07:46 PM

Hi,

It always amazes me when people try to argue that illegal down loading doesn't hurt anyone! If everyone was honset, non of this would be even dreamed of. :(

OK, I'm back from Fantasy Island, I know people will be dishonest and steal things, but the real villian is the guy stealing music and movies via the web etc. Sure HDCP is a terrible standard, but there's no need if stealing is not such a problem.

God bless....

Mark

This is probably aimed at me and very offtopic sorry, I am also against misuse of copyright having been in the software and tv production i am for copyright. My point
was and is they are using the wrong tools, the wrong way and aiming at the wrong people. And if you think they are only doing it to protect the people who really make the content (as in the creators) and not the distribution models or other sidetracks you are indeed in Fantasy Island. Stealing is wrong allways but the way they are and have been handling it is based on greed, control/power fantasies and hurting the biggest supporters (the people who buy thousands of dollars of content a year) the most.

Sorry i got sidetracked my comment was aimed at the problem this product might have with hdmi and audio and was more in support of this company than anything else.

Daniel.

Catdaddy67

02-27-06, 08:02 PM

Tim, I too am very anxiously awaiting the arrival of your product. I was also under the impression that the vantages were air-shipped on Wednesday to my dealer's distributor but as of today distributor informed my dealer that they did not have a tracking number yet, which indicates that it probably had not been shipped yet.

After seeing rdjam's experiences with it so far, my biggest question, like Bob's, is when will it get here? :)

It is good to see you post on here again as I, and my Ruby too, am looking very much forward to your product's arrival. My fireball/777ES changer are desparately in need of it. :)

In regards to the HDCP/HDMI OT, I agree that the people who would steal/pirate content will get around HDCP anyways and the best way to get to them is by suing the pants off of them when they are caught, and by encouraging/ pushing/lobbying legislation that makes it very punitive criminally to do it ... not by making it difficult for law abiding citizens like us - and the many others who will adopt the techology behind us, who are currently paying for it the worst (and the offenders arent.)

Only way to get around this is with a HDMI repeater which I will gladly pay for (along with all the media.)

Bob Sorel

02-27-06, 08:38 PM

Can I respectfully request that the OT discussion in regard to piracy please be taken elsewhere? In the HTPC section, we have tons of threads of this type being discussed all the time, so I am sure that you can hash out everything with those guys. I would really appreciate keeping this discussion focused on the Vantage-HD if at all possible.

Thanks!

htguy1

02-27-06, 09:20 PM

Hi danielo,

My comments were aimed at no one, though they were inspired by Mark H. expressing his dislike of hdcp. Every time I hear a gripe, it reminds me that none of this would be a problem if there wasn't the theft issue.

(Just think, no HDCP, you could send analoge HD to CRT projectors for years to come, DVD-Audio would have come out a year earlier and probably it would have won the format war and then we would have a viable hi-rez music format...)

GOd bless...

Mark

htguy1

02-27-06, 09:22 PM

Hi Bob,

Sorry, you are right, I am OT. I will stay on the Vantage.

c722

02-27-06, 09:47 PM

We are not stating that HDMI is useless, or that our HDMI implementation is useless, but we are observing that some SD-originated sources don't work terribly well on HDMI.

Hi Tim, thanks for the clarification! This was exactly what I had thought. Yes we are all aware of this HDMI issues and obviously this is not Calibre's fault. In fact I'm glad to see that you even provide a "configurable" HDMI mode, repeater or receiver. This configuration option alone shows you indeed have made a lot of efforts to get it work. (If I'm not wrong no other currently available VP/switcher/receiver now ever has such option to configure the HDMI input.)

i) Native PAL is 576i and native NTSC is 480/484i ....
Often, HDMI players refuse to output "i" formats on their HDMI connectors, which is very annoying of them since to get best performance you ought to let Vantage-HD do all the processing, including the de-interlacing. This can be a reason for using Component instead of HDMI since you generally have more control of Component via the menus on your DVD itself.
....
We ourselves have tried many DVDs from Denon, LG, Samsung, Toshiba, Neodigits (very problematic!), Panasonic, Sony and several other makes, each with varying results

I'm sure you know right now the only (common) dvd players that output 480i/576i is the pio59/79 (969/989) and the Sony 975. Obviously these 3 players should be the best choice for the VHD in terms of DVD HDMI input. Just curious, out of the brands you listed, Pioneer is conspicuously not present. Does this mean anything ?

htguy1

02-27-06, 09:58 PM

Hi,

I am also very interested int he DV79avi compatability with the Vantage as I bought one in anticipation of the Vantage release.

God bless...

Mark

timbrooksbank

02-28-06, 02:05 AM

Just to clarify our shipping schedules, we are releasing product daily, but as we explained in our original shipping statement, we have a significant task catching up with the order backlog. Some units shipped last week, some more went yesterday, we are shipping out as quickly as we can, but we stand by our original statement that it will take 3-4 weeks to catch up with our order backlog in full.

madshi

02-28-06, 02:11 AM

Component or HDMI? Well, for me it's SDI, it's simply the best of both worlds.

That leads me to a question about the Vantage-HD: Will the optional HD-SDI add in board feature one or two HD-SDI connectors? I think I'll need two (one for the HD/BluRay DVD player and one for the HD receiver).

Dean Roddey

02-28-06, 02:48 AM

I think I'll need two (one for the HD/BluRay DVD player and one for the HD receiver).

Where are you going to get an HD-DVD/blu-ray player or HD reciever that outputs HD-SDI? I would very seriously doubt anyone will be doing aftermarket SDI mods on any of these new boxes. I can't imagine that they would make the mistake of exposing the unencrypted signal anymore?

kraigk

02-28-06, 07:03 AM

Tim,

Thanks for jumping in the foray here. Looking forward to seeing a Vantage in action..

Often, HDMI players refuse to output "i" formats on their HDMI connectors, which is very annoying of them since to get best performance you ought to let Vantage-HD do all the processing, including the de-interlacing. This can be a reason for using Component instead of HDMI since you generally have more control of Component via the menus on your DVD itself.

You have to go to the higher end, generally speaking to get 480i from HDMI. Both 1080i and 480i are the preferred outputs from my DV79avi. There are a few lower end units that do this but they are scarce.

ii) Which is better, HDMI or Component? Well, you can argue this forever, we all have our own opinions, but what matters is which works best for you in your own install with your own gear. If you get best picture performance with HDMI then go ahead and use it, but if you get best performance with Component then use that instead.

In our "more is better" world the thinking here is that HDMI is more. More bits may be true but what you see is what counts. My .02 is that each link in the chain determines the final output. Source -> VP -> Reciever -> Display can yield many combinations of results depending what you have at each step and what your settings are for each.

LEVESQUE

02-28-06, 08:26 AM

Why use anything else then a 480i over HDMI (or SDI) DVD-player or 1080i sources with a high-end scaler like that?

I'm using a pre-production Gennum VXP scaler right now and all my 3 HDMI and 1 DVI sources are working perfectly. Audio is working like it should over HDMI. I don't even have a coax or optical cable in for the HDMI sources. Call me lucky, but the scaler is doing everything it should. Plug and play. I have some minor bugs for sure. It's not in production yet . But I'm enjoying every minute of it with my Sony Ruby.

And in the user manual, they clearly tell us to use HDMI over anything else to get the best PQ, and to use a 480i over HDMI player or 1080i sources to get the best results with the scaler. I'm using a Pioneer Elite 79AVi at 480i over HDMI with great results..

So I don't understand why Vantage are telling the opposite. Is it a problem with the Realta chipset?

madshi

02-28-06, 08:46 AM

Where are you going to get an HD-DVD/blu-ray player or HD reciever that outputs HD-SDI? I would very seriously doubt anyone will be doing aftermarket SDI mods on any of these new boxes. I can't imagine that they would make the mistake of exposing the unencrypted signal anymore?
PixelMagic is planning to offer HD-SDI mod kits.

kraigk

02-28-06, 01:10 PM

Levesque,

I'm interested to hear your opinion of your Ruby's picture with and without the Gennum in the chain? Are all sources improved? SD and HD? What sources are you using?

I'm a Ruby owner as well and am stalling the purchase of a next gen processor waiting to see if the benefits justify the cost. The Ruby processing isn't bad. How much better is the Gennum?

thanks,

Dave Harper

02-28-06, 01:30 PM

Ditto..............

Catdaddy67

02-28-06, 02:02 PM

PixelMagic is planning to offer HD-SDI mod kits.

Nice. Does anyone make a SDI switcher of any kind, aside from what would already be bundled with, or as an upgrade to, a VP?

Dave Harper

02-28-06, 02:07 PM

Any good quality 75 Ohm video switcher should work for SDI, like those from Extron, Gefen and maybe Key Digital.

Catdaddy67

02-28-06, 03:46 PM

Thanks Dave. That is good to know. :)

Any word yet on how much, and how soon, those HD-SDI boxes will be, Tim?

Im still waiting to hear on my Vantage from my dealer, so I am assuming they have not yet gotten a tracking number from their distributor. :/

LJG

02-28-06, 03:54 PM

Any good quality 75 Ohm video switcher should work for SDI, like those from Extron, Gefen and maybe Key Digital.

What about switching HD-SDI the only HD-SDI switcher I know of is the expensive Gefen model, are there other alternatives??

Lon

rdjam

02-28-06, 04:40 PM

[QUOTE=LEVESQUE]I'm using a Pioneer Elite 79AVi at 480i over HDMI with great results..
QUOTE]

I may need to get me one of those. My DVHS deck is all fine via HDMI, sound included, thru the Vantage. The Denon's HDMI (3910) seems to be the issue, as I've also seen another report on this board of the same thing from another Denon over HDMI.

The only other HDMI problem I had was actually that the Samsung didn't like anything higher than 720p, other than 1080i.

Hopefully, another HDMI DVD player will be fine, but I'll have to ensure that it does 480/576i.

Dave Harper

02-28-06, 05:24 PM

What about switching HD-SDI the only HD-SDI switcher I know of is the expensive Gefen model, are there other alternatives??

Lon

Lon,

I'm positive Extron has something that works and maybe something from Kramer or Key Digital.

Easiest thing to do is a search for "HD-SDI switch". There are probably a ton of broadcast quality solutions, but the ones I mentioned should be more affordable for the average consumer.

JlgLaw

02-28-06, 05:28 PM

Levesque,
Ditto, ditto on posts #93 and #94, above. We know you cannot be specific (ND agreement), but general impression of Ruby internal versus with the Gennum would be helpful.
Thanks!
Jim

Catdaddy67

02-28-06, 06:07 PM

That aint no lie about that Gefen model being expensive. 8)

LEVESQUE

02-28-06, 06:14 PM

I'm interested to hear your opinion of your Ruby's picture with and without the Gennum in the chain? Are all sources improved? SD and HD?

The Gennum scaler is superior to the internal scaler of the Ruby. Sharper, cleaner, less noise. The difference is bigger with HD (1080i) then SD (480i), but both are improved with the Gennum.

The Ruby processing isn't bad. How much better is the Gennum?

I also thaught that the Ruby was good before using the Gennum. Now I'm bypassing the Ruby scaler totally.

Dean Roddey

02-28-06, 06:15 PM

I just don't see how anyone is going to do an aftermarket HD-SDI kit for any HD box. They will get sued immediately because this will by definition require stripping the HDCP off the signal and sending it in the clear, and with all the work that went into the DRM system in these new systems, anyone who does that will have a set of flesh eating lawyers on their doorstep immediately, as well anyone who tried to sell them. So this just doesn't make any sense to me. It will be both aginst the DMCA, which will get you into the criminal prosecution area, as well as getting sued by the content owners probably. You'd have to be completely out of your mind to try to do that in any sort of commercial way, IMHO. It would probably be your last product and the tiny amount of money that such a niche market could provide couldn't be worth the hassle.

overcast

02-28-06, 06:35 PM

What can this product do for displays that only accept 1080i (SXRD) input for new HD formats?

The new players will output 1080i, is there processing that can be done to that signal and still output 1080i? I mean yeh these new processors are going to greatly improve current SD content, but what about native 1080i HD ?

wensteph

02-28-06, 06:58 PM

[QUOTE=LEVESQUE]I'm using a Pioneer Elite 79AVi at 480i over HDMI with great results..
QUOTE]

I may need to get me one of those.

Note Bob Sorel's earlier post on the upcoming Oppo 970. The price differential between it and the 79avi should make it worth a short wait.

LJG

02-28-06, 07:11 PM

Catdaddy67

02-28-06, 07:21 PM

Thank God for Denmark (and commercial applications!)

Dean Roddey

02-28-06, 08:09 PM

You can still get sued in Denmark. I just cannot see how the tiny amount of revenues it would bring in would begin to make it a commercially viable proposition given the legal heat it will inevitably invoke. And any of them that they try to ship here could be impounded, and of course the MPAA could make an example of anyone here who bought one if they chose to do so.

I think it's counter-productive personally. It won't do anything to make more HD content available to use sooner, it'll do just the opposite.

Catdaddy67

02-28-06, 08:35 PM

I havent read the code, in general, and how it pertains to SDI devices specifically, but from what I know (which isnt much :) I believe what is illegal is the unauthorized copying (not what is considered fair use) and unauthorized distribution of the content .. not the owning of SDI devices.

Would the image via HDMI be the same as the image via SDI? What differences would there be, if any?

htguy1

02-28-06, 08:48 PM

Hi Rdjam,

Any update on picture quality with the Vantage?

God bless...

Mark

keenan

02-28-06, 08:59 PM

Would the image via HDMI be the same as the image via SDI? What differences would there be, if any?
Depends on how much signal processing is going on after it leaves the decoder and is sent to the HDMI output. The idea behind SDI is to get the pure decoder output before every Tom, Dick and Harry applies their version of scaling/de-interlacing/signal processing of the the post-decoded signal.

chris03053

02-28-06, 09:06 PM

Hi Rdjam,

Is it to early to ask if you tried the 2 HDMI inputs for the auto switch between the two? Or the other video inputs. Thanks

lorelevitt

02-28-06, 09:14 PM

Well, after all I've read here and the mysterious 4 month delay, I decided to cancel my Vantage-HD order. HDMI is critical for all the connections I want to feed in. Additionally with Gennum systems coming out, the long lead time that the Vantage presented last October is GONE!

I'm going to wait for the professional reviews of the Realta vs. Gennum. The excitement I felt for Calibre is gone as well.

c722

02-28-06, 10:07 PM

I may need to get me one of those.
Hopefully, another HDMI DVD player will be fine, but I'll have to ensure that it does 480/576i.

Yes please try. I'm very keen to see your findings. Thanks!

Really, there are only 3 (common) dvd players that output 480i/576i: pio59/79(969/989), sony 975. In fact I believe the sony 975 is a US only model. So in UK there is only the pio 969/989 pair. And dun tell me they have tested all those dvd players except these 2 ?! To me this is the only player to test 480i HDMI input if they are ever serious abt the SD HDMI connectivity. For that matter there is no need to even test all other dvdps since , as Tim aptly put, they dun output the "i" and completely miss the whole purpose of an external VP. I would be really really SHOCKED if it cannot work with the pio at 480i. Even the old lumagen/dvdo units managed to get it work on DVI input!

mark haflich

02-28-06, 11:46 PM

Keenan. That is not the point of SDI. When many of us first modified or had our DVD players modified to output SDI, it was to avoid a digital to analogue (D to A) conversion. It has absolutely nothing to do with avoiding deinterlacing or scaling. NADA. We took 480i digital out instead of 480i analogue out. Then we inputted 480i digital to our video processors where there then was deinterlacing and scaling. If we instead had inputted analogue 480i to our processors, the processor would have used an A to D conversion so that it could process the signal. The sole advantage of SDI was or is to avoid a D to A conversion and then an A to D conversion. That's it. That's all. Whether one likes it or not, an A to D conversion and a D to A conversion degrade the signal a little. With a good processor and a high quality display avoiding these two conversions results in a small impovement in PQ.

Michael Grant

03-01-06, 12:41 AM

mark---you are of course, correct as far as the original purpose of SDI goes...

However, what keenan seems to be referring to is the advantage of using SDI instead of HDMI, not instead of analogue. And in that context, what he said was correct too. It seems that some players with HDMI out are still inserting some processing between the raw 480i bitstream and the HDMI output. Bad doggie!

keenan

03-01-06, 12:45 AM

Thanks for the explanation, I completely overlooked that aspect of it, I stand corrected.

keenan

03-01-06, 12:46 AM

It seems that some players with HDMI out are still inserting some processing between the raw 480i bitstream and the HDMI output. Bad doggie!
Yes, they are, and as you say, it can result in some bad doogie doo.. :)

oferlaor

03-01-06, 02:11 AM

about HD-SDI, I think it stems from Calibre's roots in the broadcasting market, where they most certainly do need HD-SDI.

About consumer use of HD-SDI, we'll have to take a wait & see approach. I would not discount it right away, where there is a will there is a way...

HD-SDI does not constitute, in any way, a replacement of HDMI. Howe,ver when it comes to switching it, passing it through a house, or distributing it, it is far more comfortable and reliable than HDMI will ever be.

oink

03-01-06, 03:59 AM

Which 480i HDMI players are adding processing to their signals?
Is SDI still the best way to go with a VP or is 480i HDMI just as good? :confused:

madshi

03-01-06, 04:18 AM

Which 480i HDMI players are adding processing to their signals?
Is SDI the best way to go with a VP?
I've been told that even with the Arcam DVD players (which support theoretically unprocessed output via HDMI in 480i YCbCr) you have an ever so slightly sharper image when using SDI. The big question is whether the cost and trouble of the SDI mod is worth it for you.

For me it was worth it because of multiple reasons. One of the reasons is that my display doesn't support native rate in via HDMI/DVI with 50Hz, which is a big problem here for us PAL people. So I need to go in analog to my plasma. This however is not possible when using HDMI out of the DVD player, cause the video processor is not allowed to output analog, if the input is a HDCP protected HDMI signal from the DVD player. By using SDI this problem is gone. No HDCP problems and best possible picture quality.

mark haflich

03-01-06, 05:08 AM

I wonder if it is adding processing or rather whether what you are seeing are artifacts so to speak of a conversion of whatever would be a pure SDI stream to an HDMI stream? Is there a conversion chip? If so, is it a cheap chip designed for the consumer masses with encryption one of its primary functions? Does it lose something in the conversion process? Some HF detail?

madshi

03-01-06, 05:36 AM

It's hard to say. I can't really imagine that the HDCP encryption chip somehow alters the signal. That would be very untypical for an encryption process. Maybe the conversion to the HDMI format might be problematic. Of course as soon as you output RGB, all hope is lost. But is converting SDI YCbCr to HDMI YCbCr really so difficult? Hard to imagine for me, but then who knows...

What I could imagine is that even if you output HDMI 480i YCbCr, there are still some filters running like CUE fix filters or something like that. By using SDI you work around that.

rdjam

03-01-06, 07:20 AM

Hi All,

Sorry for the lack of further updates last night. I was busy with a function, so didn't have a chance.

In general I'm very pleased with the unit - the de-interlacing of 1080i, which is ultimately what I bought it for, is superb. I have never seen the HD2K look this good and am very happy about that.

The deinterlacing is a lot more effective under movement than I expected, also. The "news ticker" line on Sky news always use to break up and look jagged with my old 1010, except when the rest of the screen was absolutely still, but the VHD handles the line-for-line in all but extreme cases.

Even on 1080i input, I am not able to perceive when the hardware switches from line-for-line deinterlacing, to any other mode. The detail is intense.

I had never realized the detail that was even in my HiDef Satellite recordings - indeed they are far better than I realized.

I really can't overstate what a dramatic improvement there has been.

On DVD material, thru DVI, both PAL and NTSC, the picture is now far better than I ever achieved with my old 1010. All I had to do was spend some time with AVIA and DVE material, just as I had with the 1010.

Sky is about the same as before, only because I haven't yet sat down to adjust all the levels.

*** Update *** I have now played with the settings and Sky looks fab, better than I thought it could - compression artifacts are history.

The DVHS and D-Theater is far better than before, not just in resolution, but also in the colors - however, interestingly, my final settings for the levels on the VHD for this input are now pretty much the same as the default settings.

The unit does have a couple of eccentricities, but minor.

Although all changes are realtime (ie for levels) sometimes it takes a little long to come back from the menu when you have changed something a bit more fundamental. I used to think it was hanging. UPDATE - I hardly see this at all now, it was mostly when making fundamental changes to the setup while I was connected to the Samsung and trying some of the modes that it turned out the Samsung didn't like. It hasn't happened at all with the HD2K.

Also, it can take a bit long to lock on to a new input frequency or resolution. It always gets it right so that is never an issue, but just thinks a bit sometimes.

Also, the "AUTO" setting for the output clock seems to operate inconsistently. My understanding is that this setting is supposed to output 50 Hz if the input is 50Hz and 59.94 when input is 59.94. But it usually doesn't. If I change the input frequncy, the unit happily starts performing frame rate conversion and outputs the same frequency as before. Bit if I then go into the menu and choose "AUTO" again, it will then switch the output frequncy to match the input. Not the end of the world. UPDATE - After restarting the unit, this has never happened again, so I think the setting "took" when I restarted. It always switches now, when I choose "auto".

The frame rate conversion is very good on SD sources - far better than what I have seen for some of our business material that was converted by a service bureau using Snell and Wilcox.

On HD sources the frame rate conversion can be a little jerky. But in reality and will not be using frame rate conversion at all, as my feeling is that the display device should always be able to match the source material. I had all th filters applied, so it is possible that it will be better if I test it without the filters. I need to remind myself to check this.

Hope this has helped everyone. I'm very happy with the Vantage HD. I have turned all video filters off for my HD material and the stuff looks fabulous. On SD source material, I have only turned on Temporal Noise Filtering and left everything else off. I'm not sure about the HQV CNR MPEG filter, it seems to lose some detail. The TNR is great.

The color is way more accurate than anything I have used before, and contrast has been massively improved on the output to the HD2K. I see no banding in good material at all, where I used to notice some from the 1010. This may be a result of some of Calibre's experience in professional equipment - they seem to have focused on using the Realta chips to produce really professional output.

If anyone has further questions, just let me know.

All the best.

c722

03-01-06, 08:32 AM

c722

03-01-06, 08:53 AM

btw Calibre had updated that HDMI Connection Advice document. Of 480i HDMI connectivity, it said

Native PAL is 576i and native NTSC is 480/484i, so if you are outputting 576p or 480p then this has already been deinterlaced by your DVD player. You can check this by looking at the menus to find out if the line rate is approx 15KHz (i) or approx 31KHz (p).

However according to HDMI standard, a SD signal that's below the min bandwidth should be transported via pixel-repetition scheme. Is the VHD correctly interpreting the 480i this way ?

Dale Adams

03-01-06, 09:40 AM

However according to HDMI standard, a SD signal that's below the min bandwidth should be transported via pixel-repetition scheme. Is the VHD correctly interpreting the 480i this way ?
Pixel replication doesn't change the line rate. There are simply more pixel clocks in a line, and the line period stays the same.

- Dale Adams

welwynnick

03-01-06, 09:46 AM

However according to HDMI standard, a SD signal that's below the min bandwidth should be transported via pixel-repetition scheme. Is the VHD correctly interpreting the 480i this way ?I don't think we've had any first hand evidence, but I'd be pretty sure that won't be a problem. Pixel doubling has been in the HDMI spec for quite a while - that's just how it works. Not accepting 480i/576i would be pulling the rug from underneath it - it's half the raison d'etre of have a good VP. Shame NEC don't seem to realise that.

Nick

c722

03-01-06, 10:07 AM

Dale: thanks for the explanation! So it should not be confused at all. This is certainly gd.

Nick: that's exactly how I feel. I'm waiting for my unit to arrive, and I just hope I won't be the 1st one to report it works! (and just as u said, the NEC, who happens to also have the Realta chip, is missing the point now... :rolleyes: )

kromkamp

03-01-06, 10:18 AM

Thanks for the very comprehensive first review, rdjam.

In conclusion, are you still having any kind of HDMI issues? I think you said your Denon 3910 works okay but it only outputs 480p?

LJG

03-01-06, 10:19 AM

Snail's_Pace

03-01-06, 10:37 AM

rdjam

03-01-06, 11:48 AM

Thanks rdjam! Really sounds promising.

a couple of quick questions:

1) u mentioned earlier the Denon 3910 somehow output a "sharper" dvd pic than the VHD. Is it still the case ? How abt the component interlaced out of the Denon into the VHD ?

2)a feature question: in the menu there is a pic position adjustment. Are you able to move a 2.35 image all the way down in a 16:9 frame ?

3)4:3 autodetection: does it auto pillar-box a 4:3 material in a 16:9 frame ?

4)I cannot find any high reso pic of the remote. Can it change the output resolution/type easily ? (I intend to connect both a plasma via RGB and a projector via HDMI, at different resolutions)

Thanks!

Hi c,

on (1), on first impression the DVD image didn't look as good as it had on my Faroudja 1010 - but I realized I was being unfair because I had spent a lot of time calibrating and adjusting the F1010 to suit the compononent output from the Denon DVD.

Once I had properly adjusted the Calibre, for the Denon via DVI/HDMI, the image surpassed what I had been able to achieve on the 1010. The Denon does NOT work properly via straight HDMI - it locks up and dies. I think this is a problem with the HDMI on the Denon. The Vantage functions perfectly with my HDMI DVHS deck, handling both the video and audio.

Also, the Denon does not output SD interlaced over HDMI or DVI, so I can't test it, however, I have run the DVHS deck at 480i, using a regular VHS tape, and it worked just fine.

On (2), I haven't tested that. I think I understand what you're trying to do, but would think that that sort of adjustment is mainly for fine-tuning the position of the image to centreit on screen. I'll give it a try , tho.

(3) Haven't tested that either, but I'll check it out. I'm guessing I'll have to find some old kids videos, as my sky box simply stretches 4:3 images before it send it to the VHD.

(4) Have spent very little time checking the capabilities of the remote, but I'll put this on my list also and post a picture here as well.

rdjam

03-01-06, 11:54 AM

Thanks for the very comprehensive first review, rdjam.

In conclusion, are you still having any kind of HDMI issues? I think you said your Denon 3910 works okay but it only outputs 480p?

The Denon does not work when connected HDMI to HDMI with proper cable. However, with a DVI adaptor in the middle it works, and also from the DVI port, via a DVI/HDMI cable. It seems to prevent the Denon talking to the VHD and getting confused. It also suggests that the problem may be in the Denon's implementation of the HDMI Audio spec, as the DVI only blocks the audio stuff, none of the video.

My DVHS HDMI deck works fine at all resolutions interlaced or not, with audio, through the same HDMI port on the Vantage.

rdjam

03-01-06, 12:01 PM

Very interesting, RDjam great review, I have had the NEC for about 3 weeks now and some of my results are directly opposite RDjams review.

I have noticed Jaggies on all credits before and after all HD1080I movies converted to 1080P, is it possible to have opposite results from the same deinterlacing chip?

I have the Vantage on order, could it possibly be that different than the NEC Theatersync?

Lon

I can honestly say I have not noticed any of that., and I was definitely looking very hard for it. The deinterlacing is SUPERB. Graphics and titling are ultra sharp, both vertically and horizontally.

My old 1010 would convert 1080i inputs, basically, to 1920 by 540, so lines that were more or less vertical were razor sharp, but lines that were close to horizontal would appear very blocky upon closer inspection.

The Vantage produces fantastically clean lines in all directions, and is able to continue doing pixel for pixel (line for line) even when there is substantial motion. ie, a pan/scan of a rippling nice lake with nice sharp mountains in the background did not throw it. Titling and credits were perfect also, on both SD and HD sources.

rdjam

03-01-06, 12:07 PM

Been following this thread since it started...thanks RDjam for all your time and effort. I admit I'm torn between the Vantage or holding out just a little longer to see how the VXP boxes compare (or even longer still for the new DVDO offering) since I only have an ED plasma panel right now and we don't get ANY HD programming in our area yet. But your insights are most appreciated; hope you remain as pleased with your purchase in the long run as you are right now!
Cheers!

If you have only an ED display (which I understand to mean 480p), then there would be no point to the Vantage other than image quality at that resolution.

There is such a choice in really good hi-def displays now, tho, that I think it is a great time to get a nice hi-def display and "eliminate" that obstacle. There is really a huge difference.

Most new displays over 40" will now do either 1024 or 1080 vertical lines. Look for a DVI input or an HDMI input (but confirm that the HDMI input is newer and can accept 1080p input).

Catdaddy67

03-01-06, 12:08 PM

Very good to hear that, rdjam. :)

Thanks for the updates and answers to questions. I cant wait to get my Vantage.

rdjam

03-01-06, 12:08 PM

kraigk

03-01-06, 12:41 PM

The Gennum scaler is superior to the internal scaler of the Ruby. Sharper, cleaner, less noise. The difference is bigger with HD (1080i) then SD (480i), but both are improved with the Gennum.

I also thaught that the Ruby was good before using the Gennum. Now I'm bypassing the Ruby scaler totally.

Levesque,

Thanks!

I've been on the Dragonfly waiting list since last May. I'm not sure I'll take it's delivery if it ever delivers but knowing the next generation is living up to it's hype is great to know. Very exciting..

oink

03-01-06, 03:04 PM

I've been told that even with the Arcam DVD players (which support theoretically unprocessed output via HDMI in 480i YCbCr) you have an ever so slightly sharper image when using SDI. The big question is whether the cost and trouble of the SDI mod is worth it for you.

For me it was worth it because of multiple reasons. One of the reasons is that my display doesn't support native rate in via HDMI/DVI with 50Hz, which is a big problem here for us PAL people. So I need to go in analog to my plasma. This however is not possible when using HDMI out of the DVD player, cause the video processor is not allowed to output analog, if the input is a HDCP protected HDMI signal from the DVD player. By using SDI this problem is gone. No HDCP problems and best possible picture quality.

Thanx for the reply.

Argh...I have the Onkyo sp1000...it doesn't output 480i HDMI. :(
Last I checked SDI for this player is >$700!
It doesn't make any sense to do this...and I hate the idea of getting rid of it for just a transport. It has excellent audio that can't be duplicated with a transport.

Suggestions anyone?

welwynnick

03-01-06, 04:19 PM

Great player. The component outputs are probably very good.

keenan

03-01-06, 04:48 PM

Thanx for the reply.

Argh...I have the Onkyo sp1000...it doesn't output 480i HDMI. :(
Last I checked SDI for this player is >$700!
It doesn't make any sense to do this...and I hate the idea of getting rid of it for a just a transport. It has excellent audio that can't be duplicated with a transport.

Suggestions anyone?
Depends on the player, my Denon 5900 is the king of macro-blocking so going SDI was a must. Now I have an outstanding picture and great audio as well for all formats.

Bob Sorel

03-01-06, 06:36 PM

Once I had properly adjusted the Calibre, for the Denon via DVI/HDMI, the image surpassed what I had been able to achieve on the 1010. The Denon does NOT work properly via straight HDMI - it locks up and dies. I think this is a problem with the HDMI on the Denon. The Vantage functions perfectly with my HDMI DVHS deck, handling both the video and audio.
Since i have both HDMI and DVI inputs on my Ruby, I am wondering if it makes any sense to simply use the HDMI output of the VHD and go into the DVI input of the Ruby using a simple adapter. Would this setup bypass any potential HDMI issues?

lawdawg97

03-01-06, 10:40 PM

i have the same question - are you guys saying that a HDMI to DVI adapter will render HDCP impotent? or that a HDMI to DVI to HDMI daisy chain will do the same? seems like an easy away around HDCP - too easy. or perhaps i am misunderstanding something.

Catdaddy67

03-01-06, 11:03 PM

I believe DVI is HDCP enabled as well. I think in this case its just a "quirk" of the system that it would take the DVI -> HDMI from the Denon, and not the HDMI -> HDMI.

c722

03-01-06, 11:05 PM

Catdaddy67

03-01-06, 11:09 PM

Thats a great assement of the audio from the Denon HDMI being the issue. If I remember reading correctly the VP 30 was having HDMI audio issues as well when it first came out.

I missed that from his most recent posts when I was reading to catch up.

rdjam

03-02-06, 04:48 AM

If I read rdjam's comments correctly, it solves the hdmi-audio problem, not hdcp. It seems the Denons have some hdmi-audio negotiation compatibility issues. Putting a DVI in the chain completely remove the audio. And it works better. DVI is still HDCP'ed. He also mentioned the DVHS deck works perfectly from 480i to 1080i with audio, so the problem with the Denon may not be VHD's fault.

That's correct - the audio HDMI is causing the trouble, and I do believe that the fault is with the Denon. Utilizing DVI, or converting to DVI and back removes the audio component, as DVI does not carry audio, thereby preventing the problem from arising.

DVI and HDMI video are the same signalling, just a different connector, so the HDCP is the same as well, no change.

I have just remembered that I have a Samsung 900-series DVD player somewhere in a cupboard that also outputs HDMI. I'll dig it out tonight and test it when I'm running the other tests promised above.

I'm guessing it'll work just fine on HDMI.

Bob Sorel

03-02-06, 10:48 AM

DVI and HDMI video are the same signalling, just a different connector, so the HDCP is the same as well, no change.
Hmmm...If that is the case, then how do you explain this? My Panny S-97 when connected directly to my Ruby via HDMI -> HDMI works fine, but if I do as you did and go from HDMI -> DVI -> HDMI it no longer displays a picture (though my player doesn't lock up). If I go HDMI -> DVI it works fine also, so I really don't think that HDMI and DVI signalling is the same, though I can't prove it.

What I was originally asking is that since DVI seems to be much more dependable and trouble free AND the fact that HDMI signals that feed DVI inputs ALWAYS seem to work, then is there any compelling reason to use the HDMI input at the display when the DVI input works so reliably? I don't have my Vantage HD as yet, but my plan is to "dumb" all of my HDMI sources down to DVI as soon as they leave the VHD.

Dave Harper

03-02-06, 10:56 AM

DVI and HDMI can be the same video signal, but they are not always. DVI carries digital RGBHV. HDMI can carry the same, but it also has the capability of doing digital component (YCbCr). When HDMI is connected to a DVI port, it automatically defaults to the DVI spec.

Dave Harper

03-02-06, 11:00 AM

rdjam

03-02-06, 12:18 PM

Hmmm...If that is the case, then how do you explain this? My Panny S-97 when connected directly to my Ruby via HDMI -> HDMI works fine, but if I do as you did and go from HDMI -> DVI -> HDMI it no longer displays a picture (though my player doesn't lock up). If I go HDMI -> DVI it works fine also, so I really don't think that HDMI and DVI signalling is the same, though I can't prove it.

What I was originally asking is that since DVI seems to be much more dependable and trouble free AND the fact that HDMI signals that feed DVI inputs ALWAYS seem to work, then is there any compelling reason to use the HDMI input at the display when the DVI input works so reliably? I don't have my Vantage HD as yet, but my plan is to "dumb" all of my HDMI sources down to DVI as soon as they leave the VHD.

Hi Bob,

Hmmm, can't really understand that. the only thing I can think of is that the DVI signal is sensitive to loss of signal. Every connector it goes through degrades the strength and timing of the signal, and it may be that the connectors and the length of the cable run in total have degraded the signal enough to mess it up. Have you tried short run cables just to check it out?

I'm not certain how I'll use the HDMI audio either. For now I'll run with it, but I'm always going to have an alternate route for audio in mind, as I'm not not if some of the newer hi-bandwidth audio streams will give any trouble over HDMI.

But for now, not a worry - I'll just wait for a good DVD transport with 480i/576i output. To be honest, I'm pretty sure that the HD DVD decks coming out must surely support SD interlaced over HDMI for regular DVDs, so I've got one ordered anyway and will see how it goes...

Bob Sorel

03-02-06, 12:21 PM

Thanks, Dave!

I guess my VHD won't be here in time for yesterday's calibration, huh? :D Has there been any update on the status from the distributor?

Bob Sorel

03-02-06, 12:26 PM

Have you tried short run cables just to check it out?
Yup, even with short, high quality cables - same issue.
To be honest, I'm pretty sure that the HD DVD decks coming out must surely support SD interlaced over HDMI for regular DVDs, so I've got one ordered anyway and will see how it goes...
With all of the DRM hardware and software to be installed on the HD disc players, I will be very frankly surprised if they work at all...at full resolution, that is... :rolleyes:

Dave Harper

03-02-06, 12:41 PM

Thanks, Dave!

I guess my VHD won't be here in time for yesterday's calibration, huh? :D Has there been any update on the status from the distributor?

Bob,

I sent an email to check with them on the status earlier and haven't heard anything back yet. Didn't Jason get hold of you???

Bob Sorel

03-02-06, 01:54 PM

Didn't Jason get hold of you???
Nope, not a word. Has he been released from the WPP (Witness Protection Program) yet? :cool:

Dave Harper

03-02-06, 02:34 PM

Huh???:confused:

Dave Harper

03-02-06, 02:36 PM

I did hear that they were shipped from the UK to our supplier on Tuesday and they should be to them by mid next week. They only shipped enough for about half our pre-order, so the people that pre-ordered in the first half of the lot will get them first. It shouldn't be a long wait for the remainder though, at least not as long as we've waited so far:rolleyes:

Bob Sorel

03-02-06, 03:22 PM

Huh???
It was just a joke in reference to my inability to contact Jason. In the Witness Protection Program (which is actually called the Witness Relocation Program once I thought about it), people are moved to some new, undisclosed location and given a new identity, never to contact anyone from their former world. I seem to run into you everywhere in the forum these days, but I have not seen a recent post of Jason's anywhere, his PMs are turned off, and his contact info is a bad link - like he is in hiding. And thus the emoticon with the sunglasses... Seriously, I hope all is well with Jason.

Dave Harper

03-02-06, 03:28 PM

I talk to him constantly via email. I am not sure why he isn't posting, etc. I'll ask him.

overcast

03-02-06, 03:41 PM

Does anyone else have the feeling that these highend processors should have been out on the market years ago? I mean BluRay is here in 3 months. Granted they might clean up certain aspects of the picture, but the the main function of them is essentially unneeded. I mean once the new players and disks come out, there isn't really a reason for me to buy sd dvd's. I stopped buying them months ago after the announcements of next gen disks. $3000 + player for old content?? I love new toys as much as anyone, but it just seems to me that they are all seriously late in bringing this new tech to the market.

Am I looking at this in the wrong way or what?

Jason Turk

03-02-06, 03:43 PM

Sorry all! Been running around like a chicken lately. I did just send everyone an email. I wanted to TRIPLE CHECK and make sure that they indeed shipped. I talked to Ed Hart and indeed I have just about all my units arriving shortly. They shipped Monday from the UK, so depending on customs, I expect to see them tomorrow or Monday.

Thanks for everyones patience!

Dave Harper

03-02-06, 03:53 PM

I told you I'd pull him out of hiding Bob:D!!!

LJG

03-02-06, 04:03 PM

JohnWH

03-02-06, 04:08 PM

rdjam,

have you compared the deinetralcer in the denon with that in the vantage?

Only ask as the only statement I've seen anywhere wrt HQV's deinterlacing in single chip config is that its motion adaptive, if that all it is then its a bit old hat, I'd be hoping for 3 or 4 field with adaptive edge enhancement in a new scaler...

John.

overcast

03-02-06, 04:43 PM

5 words - HD 720P/1080I to 1080P
Most displays do not support 1080p input and I certainly don't plan on changing out my 60" SXRD to get it at this point.

Michael Grant

03-02-06, 04:46 PM

Hmm, about the HDMI->DVI->HDMI issue. One concern I have here is that DVI does not support 480i, nor does it support 4:2:2 YCbCr. So if you're truly causing the Denon to fall back to DVI, that means you're also forcing it to do the deinterlacing and component to RGB conversion; and I thought the whole point is to avoid that.

Now, it could be that you're not really forcing the Denon to completely fall back to DVI. What you could be doing is simply interrupting the EDID communication link, so that the Denon cannot negotiate what type of output to provide. Then, you can hard-code it to do raw 480i output, and it won't get confused.

Michael Grant

03-02-06, 04:47 PM

overcast: Most displays do not support 1080p input and I certainly don't plan on changing out my 60" SXRD to get it at this point.Wait a sec. Let me see if I get this straight. First, you complain that these high-end processors should have been out a long time ago. Now, you're saying that you don't intend to upgrade your display to the level where these high-end processors are even necessary. I don't get it.

The entire reason these processors are needed is because it takes far more horsepower to deinterlace 1080i properly than it does 480i. Sure, it's awfully nice that, as a side benefit, the extra horsepower provides incremental improvements for 480i deinterlacing, but that's really a bonus. And even though Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are going to store movies in 1080p24 like they should, there is still plenty of 1080i60 native video material out there that can really benefit from advanced motion-compensated deinterlacing.

MC Maniac

03-02-06, 04:55 PM

5 words - HD 720P/1080I to 1080P

Both the Pioneer and Sony Bluray players will scale 720P/1080i to 1080P..

Like Overcast, I'm not seeing the advantage to spending this kind of money for another scaler..

The scaler companies should have waited until HDMI 1.3 was finalized, then bring their product out - AFAIK, the current new scalers with only HDMI 1.2, won't be able to output the new lossless audio formats via HDMI..

there would be some value in being able to have all your sources go into one scaler - with one HDMI cable into your processor and out to the display..

LJG

03-02-06, 05:02 PM

Oh and also I forgot 1080p24 to 1080p60

LJG

03-02-06, 05:04 PM

Both the Pioneer and Sony Bluray players will scale 720P/1080i to 1080P..

..

But how well

LJG

03-02-06, 05:06 PM

HD Sat boxes convert 480I to 720P and 1080I also, but do they do as good as a stand alone processor - No

welwynnick

03-02-06, 05:49 PM

One concern I have here is that DVI does not support 480i, nor does it support 4:2:2 YCbCr. So if you're truly causing the Denon to fall back to DVI, that means you're also forcing it to do the deinterlacing and component to RGB conversion; and I thought the whole point is to avoid that.I'm not sure about DVDO and Crystallio, but Lumagen can certainly accept raw native interlaced component digital video to their DVI inputs.

Nick

Michael Grant

03-02-06, 07:07 PM

Right, but that falls outside of the DVI standard. I believe my Optoma projector can do that, too.

Even so, I'll bet that it doesn't accept raw 480i. Rather, it accepts 480i that has been transmitted in an HDMI "pixel-doubled" manner. You see, the reason standard DVI does not accept 480i is that 480i falls below DVI's minimum bandwidth. Well, that minimum bandwidth level did not change with HDMI (nor the maximum bandwidth, for that matter). So what HDMI did is define a "pixel doubling method" whereby each pixel of a 480i signal is transmitted twice, so it has the same bandwidth as 480p and can now be transmitted legally.

So I'm thinking that what Lumagen has done is basically enable a certain subset of HDMI capability on their DVI inputs.

overcast

03-02-06, 07:08 PM

Wait a sec. Let me see if I get this straight. First, you complain that these high-end processors should have been out a long time ago. Now, you're saying that you don't intend to upgrade your display to the level where these high-end processors are even necessary. I don't get it.

The entire reason these processors are needed is because it takes far more horsepower to deinterlace 1080i properly than it does 480i. Sure, it's awfully nice that, as a side benefit, the extra horsepower provides incremental improvements for 480i deinterlacing, but that's really a bonus. And even though Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are going to store movies in 1080p24 like they should, there is still plenty of 1080i60 native video material out there that can really benefit from advanced motion-compensated deinterlacing.

I'm not complaining about anything, I'm discussing this in a forum. The SXRD is arguably the best rear projection screen to date. Does upgrading to a $15,000+ projector just to get 1080p input make any sense to you? The costs vs benefits at this point in time just don't make sense, and that was what I was asking.

I guess these scalers are more practical for those niche displays only.

Michael Grant

03-02-06, 07:11 PM

Does upgrading to a $15,000+ projector just to get 1080p input make any sense to you?Uhh, yeah. It's SWEET. :) (In all honestly I'm an FP guy so I'm being kind of facetious. But my next projector, to be purchased this year most likely, WILL be a higher-end 1080p unit.)I guess these scalers are more practical for those niche displays only.Yeah, I think so.

mark haflich

03-02-06, 07:15 PM

Yes. It makes perfect sense to me but I am not you and I do not live in Rochester. Perhaps it doesn't to you because of environmental factors. :)

Catdaddy67

03-02-06, 07:38 PM

I'm not complaining about anything, I'm discussing this in a forum. The SXRD is arguably the best rear projection screen to date. Does upgrading to a $15,000+ projector just to get 1080p input make any sense to you? The costs vs benefits at this point in time just don't make sense, and that was what I was asking.

Same thing you could ask someone who pays $200,000 for a sports car .. or maybe to some even $50,000. Depends really on what you want and can afford.

Not too long ago people were paying $30k, I bet some still are, for a 1080p projector that some argue you could get better for about a third of that now.

Bob Sorel

03-02-06, 08:42 PM

Dave, thanks for finding Jason! And Jason, thanks for the update! :D
One concern I have here is that DVI does not support 480i, nor does it support 4:2:2 YCbCr.
So Michael, does that mean that my plan of converting the VHD's HDMI output to DVI and then going into the DVI input of the Ruby won't work for 480i (with the upcoming Oppo 970H player)?

Also, would my situation with my Panny S-97 (that I posted earlier) be considered more "normal", if there is such a thing?
I mean BluRay is here in 3 months. Granted they might clean up certain aspects of the picture, but the the main function of them is essentially unneeded. I mean once the new players and disks come out, there isn't really a reason for me to buy sd dvd's. I stopped buying them months ago after the announcements of next gen disks. $3000 + player for old content?? I love new toys as much as anyone, but it just seems to me that they are all seriously late in bringing this new tech to the market.
Wow, I guess you are really convinced that the HD disc formats are going to not only work :rolleyes:, but that they are going to take the world by storm too. Unlike you, I fully expect BOTH formats to fail miserably (much like SACD and DVD-A) and DVD will remain king for some time to come.My only question is, if you are not interested in a video processor, why are you posting in the video processor forum? Are you trying to convince the rest of us of the foolishness of our ways? :p

overcast

03-02-06, 09:05 PM

Dave, thanks for finding Jason! And Jason, thanks for the update! :D

So Michael, does that mean that my plan of converting the VHD's HDMI output to DVI and then going into the DVI input of the Ruby won't work for 480i (with the upcoming Oppo 970H player)?

Also, would my situation with my Panny S-97 (that I posted earlier) be considered more "normal", if there is such a thing?

Wow, I guess you are really convinced that the HD disc formats are going to not only work :rolleyes:, but that they are going to take the world by storm too. Unlike you, I fully expect BOTH formats to fail miserably (much like SACD and DVD-A) and DVD will remain king for some time to come.My only question is, if you are not interested in a video processor, why are you posting in the video processor forum? Are you trying to convince the rest of us of the foolishness of our ways? :p

Because I'm highly interested in a scaler to replace my 3910 :)

htguy1

03-02-06, 09:16 PM

Hi Overcast,

If that is the case and you are not looking to go 1080p any time soon, you should really look at the Lumagen HDP. It does a great job of scaling etc SD sources and does very well with HD as well, and it will be a lot less than the Vantage, CII etc.

God bless...

Mark

thoth

03-02-06, 09:33 PM

So Michael, does that mean that my plan of converting the VHD's HDMI output to DVI and then going into the DVI input of the Ruby won't work for 480i (with the upcoming Oppo 970H player)?

Why would you output 480i out of the VHD?

Also, would my situation with my Panny S-97 (that I posted earlier) be considered more "normal", if there is such a thing?

I haven't tried it with my S97, but if you google "HDMI to DVI to HDMI" you will find others that claim such a cable combo should work.

Catdaddy67

03-02-06, 09:59 PM

480i from the Oppo to the Vantage, then HDMI-> DVI from Vantage to Ruby.

Michael Grant

03-02-06, 10:21 PM

Bob Sorel: So Michael, does that mean that my plan of converting the VHD's HDMI output to DVI and then going into the DVI input of the Ruby won't work for 480i (with the upcoming Oppo 970H player)?Well, in some cases these days, DVI inputs are actually HDMI inputs in disguise, in which case you may be in luck. But I would not count on this working unless someone else carefully verifies this for you. And when I mean carefully, I mean that they need to make very sure that they really are getting 480i output out of their player, and that the HDMI/DVI negotiation process doesn't override their player's settings and force a 480p output.

But thoth has a good point, why would you ever output 480i from a VHD?Also, would my situation with my Panny S-97 (that I posted earlier) be considered more "normal", if there is such a thing?If you use a DVI cable with two HDMI/DVI dongles, that should be fine, as long as all of the pins are passed through the dongles. The fact that this seems to produce different results for some people puzzles me.

thoth

03-02-06, 10:57 PM

480i from the Oppo to the Vantage, then HDMI-> DVI from Vantage to Ruby.

480i in to the VHD's HDMI port should work, 1080p out of the VHD and into the Ruby should also work.

Catdaddy67

03-02-06, 11:03 PM

Thats the plan. :) The Vantage HD will scale 480i to 1080p nicely .. i thought it was a given in Bob's example.

Bob Sorel

03-02-06, 11:08 PM

480i in to the VHD's HDMI port should work, 1080p out of the VHD and into the Ruby should also work.
Duh! What was I thinking? The connection from the 970H to the VHD will be the 480i connect, while the VHD to Ruby will be 1080P. My only excuse is that it must be the drugs kicking in...:p
I mean that they need to make very sure that they really are getting 480i output out of their player, and that the HDMI/DVI negotiation process doesn't override their player's settings and force a 480p output.
Hopefully there will be an "info" screen on the VHD for each input. I would assume that I can just check the horizontal frequency...~15k for 480i and 31k for 480p, right?

Michael Grant

03-02-06, 11:22 PM

I would assume that I can just check the horizontal frequency...~15k for 480i and 31k for 480p, right?Hmm, I think so... HOWEVER, HDMI implements 480i by doubling each pixel, so it actually consumes 31k of bandwidth just like 480p. Whether or not the VHD divides out the pixel doubling and displays 15k, I don't know.

lawdawg97

03-03-06, 12:39 AM

what about improvements on SD analog or SD digitial programming the Vantage provides? will you guys try that out and give a report? most of the comments so far concern improvements in HD content, which is great. however, at least for me my 65 inch DLP set really shows all of the flaws of SD analog (and, to a lesser extent, SD digitial) programming to the extent they are almost unwatchable. unless and until all broadcasts are at least digital and hopefully HD, a video processor's ability to clean up crappy SD programming is almost as important to me as 1080i deinterlacing.

kschmit2

03-03-06, 01:46 AM

rdjam

03-03-06, 04:15 AM

Hi Overcast,

In response to the question, the VHD's scaling and deinterlacing of both SD and HD is better than my Denon 3910. The 3910 uses basically the same chip as my F 1010, so no big difference.

On Sky News (standard def), the ticker bar at the bottom used to breakup and become jagged at the slightest movement of the main screen, on the 1010. But with the VHD, the characters are dead smooth with no distortion, even when the news screen gets busy.

On Hi def sources, the titling and other characters are much better as well - dead smooth.

So I would say it is well worth it.

Also, I think someone made the point that we all have huge libraries of SD DVDs still. Add to that the fact that some of us also have large libraries of 1080i DVHS recordings - it'll be years before all the titles are available on HD DVD or BluRay, so I would say it's very important to have a good scaler/deinterlacer now.

BTW - I was in a shop recently looking at the SXRD 50 and 60. I think these are my favourite RP units, very nice. However, as you point out they only accept 1080i input, not 1080p. But the fellow in the shop was saying that there is a firmware upgrade coming to allow 1080p. Have you checked this out?

welwynnick

03-03-06, 04:32 AM

BTW - I was in a shop recently looking at the SXRD 50 and 60. I think these are my favourite RP units, very nice. However, as you point out they only accept 1080i input, not 1080p. But the fellow in the shop was saying that there is a firmware upgrade coming to allow 1080p. Have you checked this out?There was an extensive discussion of that in the 2006 SXRD thread in the Rear Projection forum. I think the conclusion was that existing sets could not be upgraded by any means, and it was only the new sets that would take 1080p.

Nick

rdjam

03-03-06, 04:52 AM

There was an extensive discussion of that in the 2006 SXRD thread in the Rear Projection forum. I think the conclusion was that existing sets could not be upgraded by any means, and it was only the new sets that would take 1080p.

Nick

Thanks Nick, I suspected as much :-) Glad I waited - excellent set tho

overcast

03-03-06, 08:10 AM

It is a REAL SHAME that this great thread has been taken off track by the offtopic posts by overcast.

If he wants to discuss the merits of video processors, then by all means he should start his own thread.

Regards
Kai
and posting a silly response that would be best left as a PM, only to state the obvious is any better. I apologize to the rest of you for taking the topic briefly off track. The user had a very similar setup to myself and I was looking for some guidance. Thanks again.

Dave Harper

03-03-06, 12:57 PM

OK everybody...play nice:):D!!!

Dave Harper

03-03-06, 01:02 PM

Michael,

I think it doubles the 720x480 DVD resolution to 1440x480 to comply if I remember correctly:rolleyes: I remember seeing that with I think the Lumagen and 59avi combo I had previously when it showed the input frequency on the Lumagen.

Dave Harper

03-03-06, 01:03 PM

No, I remember now. It was on my Optoma H79 DLP that I saw that frequency listed when I went direct to it.

chris03053

03-04-06, 03:57 PM

Hey rdjam, have you checked the auto switching between the inputs yet? How's it work? Any long delay between the inputs?

stlblufan

03-05-06, 12:41 AM

Too much wine.

canaldoc

03-05-06, 08:07 AM

I received mine at about the same time. I have not posted much about it because it refuses to "talk" to either of my Denon players (A1-XV and 3910) via HDMI and only with a video "stutter" on DVI. I am planning to check its performance thro' component in the next few days. I obtained a Samsung HD850 but still have to fully evaluate this. Invision and Calibre are "looking in to it" - but I expect it will turn out to be an HDMI issue with Denon! Why do we have to put up with all this interference with the software - do all the original artistes consent to these modifications? Perhaps conspiracy theorists should look elsewhere and NOT at Calibre - they were "let down" by component suppliers and as far as I am concerned have been quite upfront about everything - I don't like the fact that my VHG will not talk to my Denons - which have been mutilated by HDMI and its "copy protection" - THAT IS NOT CALIBRE'S FAULT !!

JohnWH

03-05-06, 04:20 PM

Ddin't rdjam find a solution to this, something about telling the VHD to pass through the denon's HDCP query to the display instead of relying on the player to issue a query per device in the display chain...

John.

c722

03-05-06, 11:42 PM

2)a feature question: in the menu there is a pic position adjustment. Are you able to move a 2.35 image all the way down in a 16:9 frame ?

hi rdjam, did u manage to try this out ? Thanks!

rdjam

03-06-06, 04:31 AM

Hi All,

Really sorry about not getting much of an update this weekend, got a bit busy and then last night was watching a hidef movie!

The Denons definitely have a problem somewhere with HDMI - I did get the 3910 working thru DVI, with an adaptor cable (I forget offhand what I set the Vantage HD to in the "HDMI Audio Settings, but it's in a previous post).

The auto-switching (ie outputing 50 or 60 Hz, based on the timing of the input) has started working now. It is possible that I rebooted the VHD at some point after I set it to "Auto" and that this caused the setting to take properly. It wasn't consistent in the beginning, but I can honestly say it always switches now.

The "locking in" of an input, and then producing an output DOES take a few seconds, so I would say it is a bit slow to identify and lock, but it always gets it right. I have tried it with various devices at various resolutions and it hasn't put a foot wrong yet.

I even tried it with a Sony Hi-def video camera, outputting component at 1440 x 1080i, and it got it spot on.

Sorry, I didn't try the "repositioning" thing yet, but I'll give it a try this week.

Overall, I would say the deinterlacing and scaling on the Vantage HD have been superior to anything else I've seen. This is what I expected (and why I ordered it) so I am pleased. The image quality is also very good.

The only problem left that I haven't solved is that the picture adjustment settings (ie contrast, brightness, sharpness, color, etc) sometimes "stick". I.e. when I go to the Sky Satellite source from the DVD source, the settings remain as they were for the DVD input, instead of switching to those I had set for the Sky input. If I pull up the menu, the settings are all showing the correct values for the Sky input, but the screen clearly reflects that the device hasn't actually used those settings. If I then make a one-increment change to any of the settings, they all suddenly "switch-on" and the screen changes to reflect the settings.

It's really not a big problem once you understand it - no doubt it'll be a simple fix when there is a firmware update.

Everything else is brilliant.

stlblufan

03-06-06, 09:40 AM

Cancelled my order. At this point, I'm going to wait for reviews of the VXP vs. the Realta. That said, I'm leaning towards the Crystalio II with the media player. Good luck to all of you VHD owners!

kuebler

03-06-06, 01:37 PM

...
It's really not a big problem once you understand it - no doubt it'll be a simple fix when there is a firmware update.

Everything else is brilliant.Glad to hear that. I'm still eagerly waiting for delivery of mine. Can now only be weeks left...

jallerding

03-06-06, 01:47 PM

Just received the Vantage HD this morning in the US. Bad thing is I won't be able to check it out until later tomorrow.

Gary Murrell

03-06-06, 02:18 PM

where the heck are you guys in the US ordering the unit from, does AVS sell it ??

Edit: I see that AVS does :)

-Gary

stlblufan

03-06-06, 02:24 PM

Just received the Vantage HD this morning in the US. Bad thing is I won't be able to check it out until later tomorrow.

Good lord! From where did you order? Prior to cancelling the order I placed in November, my distributor told me that it would be shipped to me no sooner than March 17!!

jallerding

03-06-06, 02:44 PM

Good lord! From where did you order? Prior to cancelling the order I placed in November, my distributor told me that it would be shipped to me no sooner than March 17!!

We are a Vantage dealer so it came direct from Calibre UK.

Dave Harper

03-06-06, 05:48 PM

Yes Gary, we sell the Vantage HD, give us a call:)

Has anyone heard when they will be shipping the SDI option?

rdjam

03-07-06, 02:16 PM

Yes Gary, we sell the Vantage HD, give us a call:)

Has anyone heard when they will be shipping the SDI option?

Last I checked, it will be 2 to 3 months.

I'm looking into what I can use in the meantime to convert SDI to HDMI/DVI.

Some of the units out there will not accept 576i and some others transcode to RGB, so I haven't seen the perfect solution yet.

Any thoughts??

Dave Harper

03-07-06, 02:40 PM

The only ones I know of are the KD Digital Blaster, the Algolith solution (Tick) and a discontinued model from Gefen that we may still be able to get for you.

Thanks for the times:)

Richard Tywoniak

03-08-06, 09:41 AM

Richard Tywoniak

03-08-06, 09:43 AM

I understand that there is an option for adding two additional HDMI ports. Does anyone know the availability of this module - is it the same as SDI - 2-3 months?

Dave Harper

03-08-06, 04:05 PM

Yes, I believe it is.

Catdaddy67

03-08-06, 04:28 PM

Dave/Jason,

Have you guys found out the retail costs of the HD-SDI and HDMI modules for the Vantage?

Dave Harper

03-08-06, 04:35 PM

I haven't heard a thing yet, sorry.

htguy1

03-08-06, 06:42 PM

HI,

THe price Calibre has given for the SDI module is about $900. The module will take both HD and SD SDI, so with a switcher, you could send it any signal you like. (On the CII you either get the SD-SDI only(3300) or upgradde to the 3800 and get HD-SDI only)

God bless...

Mark

Catdaddy67

03-08-06, 06:57 PM

Mark,

Where does that info come from, regarding the $900?

The C II 3800 HD-SDI will also take SD-SDI.

htguy1

03-08-06, 07:18 PM

Hi,

The $900 is the list price from my distributer for Calibre.

That does make more sense in the CII, but I could not find that info in their brochure.

God bless...

Mark

Catdaddy67

03-08-06, 08:03 PM

Thanks for that. Looks like that will be the way to go.

That C II is a nice machine, for sure.

mgoldsmith

03-08-06, 09:30 PM

Received my Vantage this morning (Brisbane Australia). Unfortunately a proper evaluation of the unit will have to wait until my Projector is back from getting a new colour wheel :(

In the meantime I have been able to hook it up to my 26" samsung LCD TV and the picture leaps off the [little] screen.
Have only tested S-Video and DVI output from my Denon DVD-A11 (aka 5900) with a PAL DVD outputting at 1280x720 with both 50 and 60Hz to the display. The Refresh rate of a 50Hz PAL DVD at 60Hz work considerably better than i thought it would.

Basic Setup was a breeze and you can be up and running in just a few minutes using the rather well structured looking menu system.

However, I do wish Calbire had implemented a different way to store memory settings, as i personally do not like the whole "per input" basis........ and would it have been THAT difficult to include an ASPECT button the remote?
Perhaps if enough customers offer constructive suggestions to Calibre they will offer at the very least a discrete code for use in universal remotes with future firmware updates (along with other much needed simple features).

Matt.G

rdjam

03-08-06, 09:51 PM

rdjam

I have a similar set up to you (i.e. HD 2K). I am also getting the Vantage processor. Did you utilize an HDMI to DVI cable or did you simply get an adaptor? Preferably -- I do not want to get a new cable - as it requires me to do a lot of snaking of wires. If you used a DVI to HDMI adaptor - do you know of a good one?

Rick Tywoniak

Hi Rick,

I use a straight HDMI to DVI cable - but I also tested with a DVI cable with HDMI/DVI adaptor, which worked fine also.

The unit is absolutely stunning - hope you enjoy it as much as I am. Brings a whole new level to the HD2K.

I am in the process of recalibrating the color on the HD2K (just passed 1000 hours on the bulb) and then will be calibrating the Vantage HD to best fit - over the next week or so.

I'll be using the Spyder 2 Pro and the JVC HD2K software to get the projector perfect, then tackling the Vantage from various sources.

Hope to have some screenshots to show for my troubles later...

Gary Murrell

03-08-06, 10:55 PM

Yes Gary, we sell the Vantage HD, give us a call:)

Has anyone heard when they will be shipping the SDI option?

that was my next question Dave :), about SDI guys ?

-Gary

Dave Harper

03-09-06, 12:11 PM

No problem Gary.

Has anyone used a Sony DVP-NS975V DVD player with the VHD yet? If so, please post any results, issues, etc.

Dave Harper

03-09-06, 02:35 PM

I think the Vantage HDs just arrived at our supplier:D!!! i'll update when I hear something.

Jason Turk

03-09-06, 02:37 PM

See the title post. We just got in our shipment of Vantage HD's. We have most of them sold, but there are a couple available for first come first serve.

I will be sending my customers tracking in the next day. Thanks to everyone for their patience with these! It will be worth it in the long run. :)

Thanks!

Bob Sorel

03-09-06, 02:41 PM

Woohoo!!

Jason Turk

03-09-06, 02:42 PM

By the way I'll add I have NEVER had customs take so long. They sat in TN awaiting clearance for over a week.

Dave Harper

03-09-06, 03:17 PM

I know, I kept checking the tracking almost every hour:D!!!

Dave Harper

03-09-06, 03:21 PM

Jason, hold one for me:)!!!

overcast

03-09-06, 03:28 PM

Oh snap, I might have to head on over there.

Dave Harper

03-09-06, 03:33 PM

Don't take mine:D!!!

Jason Turk

03-09-06, 04:01 PM

:) I'll be setting one up next week (have a projector review to do this weekend). Overcast, if you want to come take a look, let me know a good time and we can get together.

Dave Harper

03-09-06, 04:03 PM

Which pj Jason??? Can you say..."Optoma HD81:D"!!!

Jason Turk

03-09-06, 04:31 PM

Nope. Samsung. The H81 I will be getting one of if not the first in country, but not quite there yet.

Dave Harper

03-09-06, 04:43 PM

Excellent:)

Jason Turk

03-09-06, 06:21 PM

SOLD OUT! We'll post when more arrive.

lawdawg97

03-09-06, 07:24 PM

is this unit an "any resolution in, any resolution out" unit that will once and forever eliminate black bars from 4:3 broadcasts up to 2.35 to 1 non-anamorphic DVDs and everything else in between?

Catdaddy67

03-09-06, 11:29 PM

I should have had the distributor overnight my Vantage to my local dealer. :( I was so busy today I missed a call telling me that I should have my VP no later than Tuesday, :(

I cant wait to see how the Vantage cleans up my 777ES/Fireball image. I am hoping to actually be able to watch movies via the changer now. :)

htguy1

03-09-06, 11:35 PM

Hi Catdaddy67,

Just repeat after me, I have waited this long to get it, so I really can make it till tuesday! :)

God bless...

Mark

Catdaddy67

03-09-06, 11:38 PM

rdjam

03-10-06, 01:51 AM

lawdawg97

03-10-06, 04:30 PM

is this unit an "any resolution in, any resolution out" unit that will once and forever eliminate black bars from 4:3 broadcasts up to 2.35 to 1 non-anamorphic DVDs and everything else in between?

(2nd post - curious about this feature)

Azzad

03-10-06, 07:52 PM

mgoldsmith

03-11-06, 10:32 AM

Most Video Processors, including the Vantage, allow you to change the aspect ratio of the output video with continuously variable horizontal and vertical size. If you want to stretch 2:35 horizontally and vertically to fill a 16:9 screen then you can do this.
Aaron

My interest in getting the Vantage HD had a lot to do with wanting better scaling of images, especially for Constant Height Imaging (for full screen 2.35:1 projection).

A couple of things i think all need to know about the Vantage with respect to its handling of aspect ratios is this :-

For Standard Def material (input at 480 or 576 lines) you are offered Normal, Full Screen, Crop(letterbox), Anamorphic and Virtual Wide.
In Addition to these modes, you also have a picture resize feature which allows you to change the height and width of the image you output....
However, when you change values with the RESIZE options it applies these settings to ALL aspects modes...seeing as it applied to the specific INPUT... they are not individually customizable for each aspect mode available.

AND to make matters worse, when the source input is HI-DEF (1280x720p, 1920x1080i are all i can test in HD) you not only LOSE the crop aspect option, but the other 4 aspect modes do nothing at all to manipulate the shape of the image. You can only use the RESIZE options in HI-DEF to change the aspect ratio.. which again applies to the specific INPUT not the different aspect modes.

While i see that a MASTER resize would be handy for each input, you should also be able to custom resize each aspect mode individually, in both Standard Def AND hi-def.

In this day and age where multiple source devices with various aspect ratios and image size formats are going to be used, i don't understand why the Vantage HD was not designed to have assignable memories for the inputs.

I would hope that Calibre can re-work this in a firmware update, as it's made it hard for me to see how this box will be of any benefit to anyone interested in customising their images, especially with respect to Hi-Def and 2.35:1 contant image height.

Matt.G