POSTED FOR HD RECORDING COMMUNITY FEEDBACK TO THE FCCC


FireWire Problems with STBs

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This is James Snider, Executive Director of the 1394 Trade Association. I will be visiting the FCC in mid March to let them know about problems with 1394 in STBs (i.e. the failure of cable operators to provide functional 1394 ports). Have you tried to get a working 1394 port on a STB and met with problems? I would like to take some real life stories into the FCC concerning problems.

jsnider@1394ta.org

More specifically, many people who tried to get FireWire in an HD STB have approached me. Their experiences have been very frustrating. Call center personnel do not know what FireWire/1394 is. Ordering 1394 in a STB takes a lot of persistence. When the STB is delivered, it either does not have 1394 or the port is dead and the installer says he cannot activate it. This is a violation of the FCC mandate.

I will be visiting the cable and STB companies and the FCC over the next several weeks. I need to reference real life experiences. The more information you provide me, the better:
Cable Provider
Date of the event (month and year)
STB make/model
TV (age and make/model)
Any other devices you are connecting via 1394
Your name and City

If you would prefer to remain anonymous, that is OK. Even general information is useful in establishing trends.

Also, if your experiences with 1394 in the STB have been painless, let me know about that as well. I need an accurate picture of the situation.

Thank you,

James Snider
1394 Trade Association

See this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=634326

Unfortunately, I'm in Canada, so we're not under the FCC's jurisdiction, but could you please take your case up to Industry Canada and the CRTC? I'm also angry that we have absolutely NO firewire options (the STBs' ports aren't active and they won't provide cablecards to allow me to use the port on my digital TV).

Email sent.

I just re-signed up with Cox and am having an HD-DVR mailed to me tomorrow. I'll let you know what the status of my firewire connectivity is. (Crossing fingers)

Thanks. I am eager to hear how things work out. I am getting a fair number of emails to my corporate account on this topic. Some STBs are working great. Some work great 98% of the time. Some do not work at all and people are getting stone walled. I am looking for all information I can collect on this topic.

Thanks again,

James Snider
1394 Trade Association
jsnider@1394ta.org

I have a SA 3250HD STB, a Mits WS65869 HDTV, and a Mits HS1100U DVCR. If I connect the DVCR directly to the firewire ports on the SA 3250HD, I can make digital recordings. I must manually start the DVCR.

If add the Mits HDTV into the firewire chain, I cannot make DVCR recordings like above, nor can I display the live firewire output of the STB on the HDTV, nor I can I make DVCR recordings of the SA 3250HD under control of the HDTV. The HDTV does discover both the DVCR and STB.

If I just connect the HDTV and the SA 3250HD STB (No DVCR) I still cannot reliably display the firewire output of the STB on the HDTV, even though the HDTV does discover the STB. Ninety-nine percent of the time I just get a blue (video muted) screen.

I've heard that this problem occurs due to a incaompatiblity between the Mits HDTV and SA 3250HD having to do with the handling of the Emergency Broadcast System. Apparently what's supposed to happen when EBS is activated is that someone watching a firewire signal out of the STB would be advised to switch to analog, and the firewire would be muted, but when the 3250 is firewire connected to a Mits HDTV this muting takes place all the time.

--hourglass (PM me if you need name/address)

James,
Could you post a summary of problems between those that work and those that don't?

I'm under the impression that the majority of those that work are connected directly to a 5c compliant device such as a D-VHS machine. These should all be able to record a live stream. Many will have problems making a COPY of a recording already on the drive.

I'm also under the impression that the majority of those that DO NOT work are connected to non- 5c compliant devices, such as PC's, etc.

vegggas

I'm under the impression that the majority of those that work are connected directly to a 5c compliant device such as a D-VHS machine. These should all be able to record a live stream. Many will have problems making a COPY of a recording already on the drive.
Your understanding is my experience to a tee. I sent an email to Mr. Snider in response to his request and here is his response:
I am a bit surprised that you can move Premium content from the DVR
to the DVCR.
There should be a "move" function (standard in 5C) which will let you
move the content from one storage device to another (and erase it
from the first device) but it should not permit you to have two
copies (on on the DVR and one on the DVCR). That, at least, is how
Comcast thinks it works.
So based on what you are saying, this is the intention and my DVR is working properly if I can record a live stream? That seems to conform with what Mr. Snider said.
You probably know from following this forum that some members, most notably Phototone in Arkansas, can archive recordings on their drive with no problem. I have had some luck recording from the hard drive to DVHS, but I haven't yet gotten a glitch-free recording. I think Snider got the 98 percent figure from my email to him. Of course it's that 2 percent that makes the recording worthless depending on what it is.
Edit: I forgot to add that I am having a problem recording ANYTHING on the drive, 5C and nonpremium content. I could accept it if I can't archive 5C material off the drive, but shouldn't I be able to archive nonpremium content? I mean, of course, the ability to make glitch-free recordings.

First, I will say that I don't really know what I'm talking about, but have technical reasoning. That said, this is how I see it.

D-VHS 1394 recording a live stream comes straight from the input demuxer and decoder of the Multiple Program Streams of a given QAM carrier. The internal signal is then routed out the 1394 jack and also to the rest of the circuitry for the STB to process.

D-VHS 1394 recording a DVR recorded stream, is already demuxed and being sent through the decoder and STB processing and then the 1394 circuitry is attempting to output the stream. This may or may not cause problems.

If 5c is set to copy once, the content will always be prohibited from copying from the DVR to a D-VHS. There may at some time be a menu item for MOVING digital content from DVR to D-VHS, but nothing that I know of exists yet. Setting individual streams to the varying 5c schemes may be problematic if the modulator hardware sets the flag for all streams the same. This is why some cable companies are all copy once, or copy freely, etc.

The 8300 works exactly like the 3250 in that you can record a live stream and that was the build process all along and the way it was supposed to work. The DVR storage was a different build model, but due to 5c copy protection schemes for the hard drive, the cable co's have had to enforce and set the 5c rules on the STB where they previously may have not - That means no PC recording should be working on the DVR, where it used to work on the 3250 since PC's are not 5c compliant.

In those locations where you can still record to a PC, the cable co has not figured it out yet or set the flags correctly, or something like that. Eventually, there should be better provisions to move or copy content from one device to another, but that was not the original intent of the STB.

vegggas

Well, I received my Cox HD-DVR and it is an older PhaseII Moto 6412 with DVI. The firewire output appears to be functioning correctly, allowing recording of the program without triggering the dreaded 480i downconvert message on my JVC 5U. I was one of the first customers of Cox in Hampton Roads, Va to have an HD-DVR which allowed archiving to D-VHS. At first i was experiencing a lot of picture freezups and audio dropouts, which may have been primarilly the fault of the JVC 30K I had at the time. Recordings were fee of any copy restrictions (I could make copies of copies) Things became a bit more stable until a software update turned on the 5C copy never flag. I was forced to downgrade to the non-DVR Moto 6200 HD reciever and needed to use a Radio Shack VCR controller to turn the VCR on since timer recording was not supported with the firewire input. When the Phase III Moto with HDMI came out, I decided to give it a try and it allowed archiving to D-VHS, but only copy-once. I would like to give the new 6416 a try, mainly for the larger hard drive, but I still havent seen it confirmed on these forums that it has active firewire output. My other option for firewire recording is an LG 3412 OTA-HD PVR, which allows for gorgeous HD recordings but is a bug-infested POS which i need to have sent in for service because the TV Guide screen keeps freezing up.

So far, I am able to make a D-VHS dub from my 6412 DVR recordings. There are no problems if the DVR recording is good. I have had some problems at times with the DVR not making a good recording (incomplete, or freezes during playback) using the scheduler in the 6412. I think this may be happening when the cable company sends an update during, or before the recording on the DVR is scheduled to start, or perhaps during the recording.

Sorry for hijcaking this thread ...

Unfortunately, I'm in Canada, so we're not under the FCC's jurisdiction, but could you please take your case up to Industry Canada and the CRTC? I'm also angry that we have absolutely NO firewire options (the STBs' ports aren't active and they won't provide cablecards to allow me to use the port on my digital TV).

Foxfan,

It turns out that firewire ports are active for:
Eastlink, Rogers Atlantic, Cogeco & Shaw. All these operators are, coincidentally, using Motorola hardware.

Firewire ports do not work for Rogers Ontario and Videotron (Quebec) customers. Both operators are using Scientific Atlanta gear.

So the two largest markets in Canada appear to be SOL. ...

The SA8300 HD-DVR I have locks up my 30K and 40K via firewire. They cannot talk to each other. But the 8300 works OK with the Mitsubishi 2K.

Today I will try a brand new JVC 5U with the DVR and pray it works properly.

I have no trouble whatsoever recording the live stream from my Motorola QIP6416 (Verizon FiOS cable box) to either my 30K or 40K DVCR. I cannot record from the DVR portion of the 6416 to either DVCR. Well, I can record but the audio is out of sync and the picture freezes. A tape recorded from the DVR to the 40K will not play on the 30K, either premium or regular content. As far as I know, this is the proper operation of my unit and I can definitely live with it. Case closed for me.

You have Motorola equipment, therefore you can make it work. Motorola kicks arse. Big time.

SA sucks. :mad:

Well, thats bad news, billodom. I was thinking of trading in the 6412 for the 6416, but no recording from timeshifted DVR programs would be a deal-breaker for me, Something doesnt sound right about your situation. Did you try re-setting the unit? If it allows recording of live programs it should work for both.
Matt-
Good luck with the 5U! I found it to be much more stable than my 30K, with fewer audio/video anomalies and a better picture via HDMI.

Well, thats bad news, billodom. I was thinking of trading in the 6412 for the 6416, but no recording from timeshifted DVR programs would be a deal-breaker for me, Something doesnt sound right about your situation. Did you try re-setting the unit? If it allows recording of live programs it should work for both.
Case reopened ;)
According to the FireWire rep (James Snider), he says that the copy on your DVR counts as one. Therefore, you would not be able to copy it again to your DVCR. Referring of course to premium content. This gibes with what vegggas said earlier: I'm under the impression that the majority of those that work are connected directly to a 5c compliant device such as a D-VHS machine. These should all be able to record a live stream. Many will have problems making a COPY of a recording already on the drive. I will grant that I should be able to copy/move non-5c content from my DVR to my DVCR, but the QIP6416 is making no distinction. I have reported this to my cable provider, Verizon.
As I mentioned earlier, Phototone is the only member I know of who has had success moving content from his DVR to his DVCR and he even qualified his "success" above.

I have the following equipment/cable service:

Wide Open West (WOW)
SA8300 cable/DVR combo box
Sony KDS-R50XBR1 TV
JVC HMDA5U DVHS VCR

I connected all of these devices with firewire cables. The TV recognizes the VCR but not the cable box. The VCR does not recognize the cable box. I contacted WOW and they said that the firewire port on the cable box is not active and that they will do nothing about it. I contacted the FCC who also said that they will do nothing about it.

...no recording from timeshifted DVR programs would be a deal-breaker for me, Something doesnt sound right about your situation. Did you try re-setting the unit? If it allows recording of live programs it should work for both.
Okay, let's try this one more time ;)
Just when I was about to give up on being able to record from the hard drive to either of my DVCRs (30K and 40K), I may have spoken too soon. Apparently I will have to do more experimenting. I dumped both Bubble and Live on the Sunset Strip from the hard drive of my cable STB to my 40K. Today I watched part of the tape on my 30K and it seemed fine. I actually watched Bubble in its entirety on my 40K and there were three or four "glitches," where the picture froze for a split second and then came back. Anyone care to opine if the 5C flag counts content on the hard drive as one copy? I could see it either way. Color me confused :confused:

It is my understanding that the D-VHS copy is the copy-once. The resulting tape is copy-protected. It was very rare indeed for me to get a totally glitch-free recording with my JVC 30K. My 5U is better, but the occasional tiling/hiccups occur. It is still worth it- HD on D-VHS still stomps all over DVD.

It has been my understanding that the DVR recording is for "time shifting" and should not be considered the "copy once" copy, as the recordings on the DVR are not permanent, and get erased when new material is recorded. Of course you can "force save" a recording, but for HD the DVR quickly fills up. I can confirm that the D-VHS dub IS COPY PROTECTED and will not allow another dub (from D-VHS tape) to be made in either HD or downconverted SD.

My box does not automatically erase content when it is dub'd to D-VHS.

I personally would be really "torked" if I had to record only "live" to D-VHS, as many of the movies and programs I want are on at inconvenient times for me.

It has been my understanding that the DVR recording is for "time shifting" and should not be considered the "copy once" copy, as the recordings on the DVR are not permanent, and get erased when new material is recorded.
<SNIP>
I personally would be really "torked" if I had to record only "live" to D-VHS, as many of the movies and programs I want are on at inconvenient times for me.
So you think you can have YOUR copy on YOUR DVR, and ALSO make a PERFECT COPY to GIVE AWAY or SELL Unlimited copies From the DVR's Hard Drive onto D-VHS???!!! With that implementation, you could sell perfect copies off your hard drive an unlimited number of times. This shouold ONLY apply to content lableled "copy freely" .
That is NOT the way the implementation is supposed to work. It is supposed to be to record a single stream during a live broadcast, just like every other STB with Firewire (i.e. 3250) would do. Your D-VHS is still a VCR, set it to record at the time you want, just like you would do with the 3250 or equivelent Moto or Samsung box.
The alternative implementation would be to MOVE the content from the DVR to the D-VHS, but there are technical issues with the architecture for that to happen any time soon. If things ARE working for you right now in the above scenario, enjoy it while it lasts.

vegggas

I wonder what a "proper" implementation of 5C would do if it were asked to record to both the DVR hard drive (for short term conveneince) and live to DVCR via firewire (for personal archive) simultaneously, on a copy-once program.
--hourglass

There are flawed devices where this exact thing is exploited to achieve copy-free material, but I don't know much about it.

The proper thing would be for the DVR to send the material to D-VHS and when it is done, delete it. But that would require actual thinking on the part of Scientific Atlanta and other companies and they are not capable of thinking or coming up with software that works. :mad:

I just got my DVHS deck working, and got a good copy(I thinK) of an HD program off the hard drive of my DVR. It was recorded on ESPNHD, copy-once flag. It did not delete from my hard drive, since I captured it in real time.

It was a very specific series of steps, and very touchy/quirky as to what you could hook up. I had to connect the cable box into the TOP of the DVHS deck's 1394 inputs, and the TV to the BOTTOM jack. I also had to reset my TV by unplugging it, somehow the firewire inputs on it got messed up, as did the digital and HD channels on the tv tuner, would not display.

DVHS Deck: Mits 1100u
Cable Box: Motorola 6412 PII - Comcast
TV: Samsung DLP HLR-5667W, about 9 months old

But I have had success. Thankfully my signal is pretty strong, and I don't have any error counts, so I believe I am getting perfect recordings. Using Maxell DF-300 tapes from tapewarehouse.com

There is someone out here who got it to work(seems rare, I know)

It was a nightmare to get the 3250HD from Time Warner Cable in Milwaukee last April. Two months and 30+ calls before I got one and it had nothing to do with the calls. A TWC employee from a local message board helped arrange for the delivery, without their help I never would have received it.The 5C flags are often screwed up. Presently, they have now placed "Copy Once" on everything including local channels. The cablebox usually must be reset almost everytime I want to use my D-VHS. It is running Passport software. The FCC only provides email contact for the issues which are rarely responded to. Who are we supposed to contact at the FCC?

So you think you can have YOUR copy on YOUR DVR, and ALSO make a PERFECT COPY to GIVE AWAY or SELL Unlimited copies From the DVR's Hard Drive onto D-VHS???!!! With that implementation, you could sell perfect copies off your hard drive an unlimited number of times. This shouold ONLY apply to content lableled "copy freely" .
That is NOT the way the implementation is supposed to work. It is supposed to be to record a single stream during a live broadcast, just like every other STB with Firewire (i.e. 3250) would do. Your D-VHS is still a VCR, set it to record at the time you want, just like you would do with the 3250 or equivelent Moto or Samsung box.
The alternative implementation would be to MOVE the content from the DVR to the D-VHS, but there are technical issues with the architecture for that to happen any time soon. If things ARE working for you right now in the above scenario, enjoy it while it lasts.

vegggas

Copy once is meant to prevent copies of copies, not to prevent someone from making multiple copies of "copy once" programs. Someone with multiple non-DVR STBs and multiple D-VHS machines could already make copies to give away or sell, and shows that are broadcast more than once could be copied more than one time already for the same purpose. Yes, being able to record multiple copies from one DVR recording makes it easier, but just because I CAN break the law a little bit easier doesn't mean I DO. Having the ability to record onto D-VHS from my DVR allows for much better editing onto tape of what I want to keep, and allows me to check my recordings before clearing the DVR. Also, my D-VHS by itself can't record timed programs over firewire, I'd need a separate timer to do that (which must be a pain for the non-DVR STB users with D-VHS). the DVR hard drive is far too small to keep much HD for time-shifting, so I do use D-VHS more for that purpose than archiving for a permanent collection. Given that the industry sees us all as potential criminals, I wouldn't be surprised to see some further limits on copying and I am enjoying it while I can, but I reject the implication that DVR recording to D-VHS defeats the purpose of copy once when my D-VHS copies cannot be copied.

True of False?
1) Anything not viewed in real time is a "Copy" of the original version.
2) Time shifted material on a DVR or other device is a "Copy" of the original viewing (i.e. not the original).
3) Anything not being viewed live is a "Copy" and is therefore constrained by the "Copy Once" designation, since it's already a first generation Copy.
4) "Copy Once" says that you can't make a Copy of a Copy.


The only correct provisions for using a DVR with D-VHS is to either record a live stream, or "Move" the content from one device to the other. The Current crop of DVR's hardware and software do not implement a "Move" feature, so that leaves recording a live stream.

vegggas

True of False?
1) Anything not viewed in real time is a "Copy" of the original version.
2) Time shifted material on a DVR or other device is a "Copy" of the original viewing (i.e. not the original).
3) Anything not being viewed live is a "Copy" and is therefore constrained by the "Copy Once" designation, since it's already a first generation Copy.
4) "Copy Once" says that you can't make a Copy of a Copy.


The only correct provisions for using a DVR with D-VHS is to either record a live stream, or "Move" the content from one device to the other. The Current crop of DVR's hardware and software do not implement a "Move" feature, so that leaves recording a live stream.

vegggas

i gather you concede my point that you don't need a DVR rather than a plain STB to make physical copies for others, which was the main reason you earlier seemed against having the ability to record onto D-VHS from a DVR. you can make copies for yourself and for others with a non-DVR STB.

You are right, in the mainstream sense as most people understand the word, a recording on a DVR is a "copy," and copying a recorded DVR show to D-VHS is a "copy of a copy." But "copy once" is a regulatory term. for purposes of copy once, the recording to the DVR is not considered a "copy," which is why the subsequent copy to the D-VHS is considered the first copy for copy once purposes. I don't own the DVR; I rent it from the cable company, and I don't own the copies on the DVR. that's a very logical reason to distinguish a copy made to a D-VHS -- from any type of STB, non-DVR or DVR -- from a copy to a DVR. The firewire-out requirement doesn't apply to purchased DVRs, right?

it doesn't really affect my argument, but technically, everything viewed on a DVR is slightly delayed and buffered, and is not quite "live." there is no "live" stream per se even when you are watching what you think is "live" on a DVR.

so for purposes of the regulation, I think you are incorrect about what you assert to be the "only correct provisions" for copy-once for using a DVR with a D-VHS. You are right that I'm making a copy of a copy in the colloquial sense, but not for copy-once purposes. In the end, I make personal recordings for myself that I can store on D-VHS tape, and having a DVR just makes it easier for me to use it lawfully than not having a DVR. Why does that seem to bother you so much?

btw, I should add that I have the infamous 6412 DVR from Comcast, and a JVC HM5U, and I've had remarkably few problems recording by firewire the last 14 months once I learned the quirks of the combo. Most of what I like to record is sports & live music viewings, not movies -- there are precious few movies or TV shows I like to rewatch.

i gather you concede my point that you don't need a DVR rather than a plain STB to make physical copies for others, which was the main reason you earlier seemed against having the ability to record onto D-VHS from a DVR. you can make copies for yourself and for others with a non-DVR STB.Not really, it was just another unmentioned tangent. But, Since you asked...
On a DVR, you could make UNLIMITED copies of a single viewing/recording with a single D-VHS and STB and sell them at a money making profit with a low investment. If you ever needed to make a new copy to sell, just fire up the D-VHS and copy away. This is not what the studios want and not the way it is supposed to be implemented.
With a plain STB or live stream, you are physically LIMITED to the number of STB and D-VHS pairs along with each scheduled viewing there is. You have to outlay a lot of money for D-VHS decks and rentals of STB's to make 1, 2, or 3 copies per viewing, depending on the equipment pairs vested. Some movies are rarely or never repated or available anywhere else (see Lost Highway thread on UHD). If you only had a single copy, but wanted to sell another one, you have to wait until another viewing is available. Not a way to make a profit, and the way it is intended to work.

it doesn't really affect my argument, but technically, everything viewed on a DVR is slightly delayed and buffered, and is not quite "live." there is no "live" stream per se even when you are watching what you think is "live" on a DVR. What you view on the TV is buffered in volatile ram, but the firewire out is derived from the main live transport stream. What happens to your live copy (out 1394) if you pause, rewind or jump through the live show you are viewing live?


so for purposes of the regulation, I think you are incorrect about what you assert to be the "only correct provisions" for copy-once for using a DVR with a D-VHS. You are right that I'm making a copy of a copy in the colloquial sense, but not for copy-once purposes. In the end, I make personal recordings for myself that I can store on D-VHS tape, and having a DVR just makes it easier for me to use it lawfully than not having a DVR. Why does that seem to bother you so much?
A copy is that; a copy and not the original. That fact can't be denied.
The provision stands as correct with the current implementation of recording. Either MOVE the original, or copy the original to D-VHS.
It doesn't bother me what you personally do with other peoples content, but the system has to be implemented in a way thats not easily exploited and somewhat protected.
For me, as a photographer, I have unique photos that I do not want any copies made or viewed without specific sales and royalties made to me, the artist. Making copies of my photos de-values them for both the buyer and seller and the market.

vegggas - end tangent - there is no more need for me to discuss this thread any further

No Copy Move feature ever happening in the history of the univese is where Hollywood shows its real colors. Whenever all the D-VHS decks wear out you'll be able to Time-shift on a DVR but not Archive! I told everyone this long ago!

Copy Move = Archiving. No Copy Move = the eventual after the demise of D-VHS death of Archiving! Why? For one simple reason--if you can't ARCHIVE HD movies and can't have a good size collection of them the chances that you will then purchase HD movies on Hd-DVD or Blue Ray INCREASE.

And for all you copyright lovers out there --while it may be true that a copy on a DVR is a copy it is not as tangible and as easy to carry around your own home as a D-VHS copy is now, is it? DVR copies are not as MOVABLE as D-VHS copies so please spare me all the self righteous crap about people already having a copy or the world would come to an end if a COPY MOVE feature that allowed no FURTHER COPYING would Rape the copyright holder. That's just an out and out lie!

It is technologically feasible to design a Copy Move Feature from DVR to D-VHS that would not be susceptible to future copying and also don't give me a bunch of crap about--well people could defeat it! So What? People can rob banks too--that doesn't mean we get rid of all banks! How DRACONIAN does protection of Copyright holders at the expense of Archivist who are not breaking the law HAVE to be? This isn't about fair use--it's about PERPETUAL control to make more money!

It's all about money--it always HAS been and for all you disingenuous obfuscators of the truth out there who will rally to the support of the indefenseable I give you this challenge:

If ARCHIVING is OK Let's see the MPAA advocate allowing Copy Move from DVR to D-VHS! That will never happen and that Proves what Hollywood is really after--No archiving so they can sell more HD-DVDs and Blue Ray discs! Case Closed! Fair Use Killed! Video Consumer screwed! Industry Plants overjoyed! Congressman from BOTH parties re-elected while Hollywood LAUGHS at making the DUMB American public make it even richer!

P.S. To all the great 1394 and FCC officials out there: Do you believe there is NO coinincidence between all the handshake problems and flag recognition problems and the fact that Hollywood in their heart of hearts just doesn't want the public to be able to make a "Copy Never" Copy of a movie from a premium service such as HBO, Showwtime, etc over Firewire from a Cable set-top box? Do you think they're really that INEPT at making such a thing work? GIMME a break!

Do you also think that there isn't something the least bit strange in satellite providers making HD archival recording impossible and manufacturers making so few D-VHS recorders?!

Wake up! Fair Use will only happen if it is ENFORCED against the financial interests of all the interlocking Movie content/cable and satellite providers/D-VHS possible manufacturing companies! Right now Fair use is hanging by a thread of D-VHS machines that will ultimately wear out and it only works on a hit or miss basis for super geeks who can figure all the Byzantine intricacies of making it work! Most of the time there are problems even for the know-it-alls!

If you don't want people making Copy Never Archival copies then just come out and say it! Just please spare us the charade of giving a damn about the Video consumer who wants to Archive--if everyone really wanted that to happen--the Video consumer would fund it--the real question is will the Video Consumer have to fund the Content providers in a BIGGER way because Archival collections will not exist! Does that sound like America? Listen to your heart--let Fair Use and Freedom Ring!

Regardless of what has been said in the posts above, when using a Cable Service Provider, and a leased Cable Set-top Box with DVR, the Cable Box and DVR belong to the Service Provider, and not to the home-owner, and therefore the archived recordings on the DVR do not belong to the home-owner. The only way a home-owner can actually "own" a copy of a Cable transmitted program is to record it on DVD or Tape (Tape only as of now for HD content). Therefore I just cannot see how the DVR recording can even remotely be considered the "copy" we are entitled to on "copy once" flagged channels. We don't own the DVR box, so the contents of the box should be considered just an extension of the programming provided by the Cable Company, and certainly not an "archival" copy. As it now stands, one cannot make a copy of a D-VHS copy of a "copy once" flagged program, so we cannot easily make duplicates, anyway. The only time I have ever attempted to make more than one D-VHS dub from a Cable program was when the first copy was flawed by equipment malfunction.

When Cable service was entirely analog, it was easy to set up the timer on a VCR to record a program directly to the VCR, but now with HD and Digital broadcasting, it is virtually impossible to do timer recording with any type of DVD or VHS recorder, unless the content is on the remaining analog channels. This makes the Cable Set-top box with DVR even more vital as a way to temporarily capture programs that we wish to save by dubbing to permanent media. Consider, if you cancel your Cable service, where does the DVR go? Right back to the Cable Co. You cannot keep it, since you do not own it. What about the contents of the DVR? Too bad.

I can see that if I actually "owned" by outright purchase, a Digital Cable Set-top box with built-in DVR, then the contents of the DVR "might" be considered my "copy", but in general the chance of a Cable Company actually "authorizing" a set-top box not provided by them (via a lease agreement) is very slim, I would think. Thus it is even more important that we try to protect what little "rights" we still have in making a decision to archive a program for our own personal future viewing in our own homes on media that we own. (DVD or D-VHS)

Hopefully this doesn't come too late as input to the original post. If someone has influence to present this issue, hopefully it can be used to help get us some more capability. I am a Comcast subscriber in the metro Dallas TX market. I have the Moto 6412 pII box. Back when 1394 connection to PC with this box was first discussed I didn't have all of the pieces in place to try it. I recently connected the 6412 to my PC using the process outlined in the thread here at AVSForum. I did get the PC to capture local HD channels to hard drive. But evidently I missed the period of time when all of the HD channels were open and available for capture. The other issue is that local Comcast has everything 5c encrypted except local HD channels (this includes commerical SD channels, premium channels, PPV channels, analog channels and any content from the internal hard drive). So at this point the only thing I can use the 6412 box for is a live pass through on HD locals only. I can't even archive local HD captures from the internal hard drive to the PC. In my estimation content owners should not be worried about the issue of even allowing archival of HD material from this box to a PC because even if I do get the HD stream to my PC, the only method to get it off of the PC is DVD video. DVD video is 480i/p (720x480) resolution. The resultant is not Hi-definition (720p/1080i 1366x768, 1920x1080). Until HD-DVD or Blue-ray is available there is no way to get hi-definition content out of a PC box, so why be concerned about the Hi-def content that we (consumers) might move/copy/archive to PC and subsequent DVD. Right now the way that I do this is by way of analog output to either a DVD recorder or PC video capture card. With the small little hard drive that the 6412 has it is really a pain to try and archive off things that you might not have already seen on the internal drive before they have to be deleted for new material scheduled to come in. I advocate that local cablecos either be mandated to provide external storage capability (via 1394, USB2 or SATA) or allow unrestricted archive to PCs where it would be much easier for us to store older content and burn off to DVD back at a high quality standard definition level.

To answer the question...yes 1394 is active and functioning on the Moto 6412 in Dallas but it is totally useless and too difficult to use to make it worthwhile.

In the ideal world for providers and viewers, all content would be available on demand for a very reasonable cost or free with commercials. Thus eliminating the need for copies. It is definitely coming. How long is another question. In the mean time get a D-VHS VCR and a Radio Shack combo STB and VCR remote controller while you still can. We're lucky we even have this option.

There will always be a need for copies--just ask Hollywood which can't resist putting out sequels!

Cable Provider: Time Warner

Date of the event: Ongoing, since April '05

STB make/model: SA 3250, SA 8300

TV (age and make/model): 3 years RCA F38310, 1 year Dell 2405PW

Any other devices you are connecting via 1394:
JVC 30000U D-VHS, Mits 2000U D-VHS, LG 3410A HD DVR

City: Memphis TN

Took countless phone calls and at least 3 visits (the kind where you waste half the day) to get a SA 3250 with working firewire, back in mid '05. Early problem was TW had same model number for all 3250 boxes w/ or without firewire. One tech try to tell me USB ports were firewire, etc.
The JVC records OK with it but does have the audio droput problem. The Mits does not have this problem.
The SA 8300 has some glitches (audio and video) with JVC when recording live. The Mits less so.
Archiving COPY FREELY off the 8300 hard drive is terrible.
JVC and Mits both show significant picture degregation.
(Ihave used the JVC and the LG machines to display whats on the Mits since the Mits has no component out).
This shouldn't happen with copy freely material such as the SuperBowl.
It seems to become even worse when seguing from program to commercial and vice-versa. Perhaps indicative of a non steady bit rate.
I just received the LG DVR and preliminary results do not exhibit this problem.
i.e. I can archive from hard drive to tape.

On side issues, just because the MOVE function hasn't been implemented on these DVR's, does that mean consumers should suffer once again?

Neither SA box supports A/VC, while the LG does (controlling the VCR from the set top box).
Isn't this also an FCC requirement?
Thanks

AV/C support is not required by the FCC mandate. All that is required is a "functional" FireWire port. The FCC will be interested to find out how "dis-functional" the FireWire ports actually are.

Thanks,

James

Gimme a break! Everyone with half a brain knows how non functional Firewire ports are--the FCC included!

If the FCC really wants to know how UN functional they are just read any number of the ZILLION + posts here that talk about all the problems.

Why is it that the FCC can track down and incarcerate illegal breoadcasters but can't fathom the fact that BY DESIGN most Firewire ports are not functoning properly?

If the FCC really wants something more than anecdotal evidence then they should send out people all over the country with D-VHS recorders and try the connection themselvs! I guess they're afraid if they did something like that they would find out the truth!

To put this "sticky" thread back on track, the relevant document to read is the DTCP Adopters Agreement:

http://www.dtcp.com/data/AA05312005.pdf

On page B-13, section 3.1, it states:

"Multiple sequential moves from a Licensed Product having a Source Function to a Licensed Product having a Sink Function, consistent with the requirements set forth in this Section 3 and Section 3 of part 1, are permitted."

In other words, they're not worried about how many 1st generation copies you make as long as the copy process is real-time and sequential.

Clearly, cable boxes are providing this functionality. However, there are complaints about how well the move function works (that is, there are glitches, dropouts and other impairments). This is entirely a software implementation problem having to do with generating the correct 1394 packet timestamp values. When a bitstream is stored on disc, the original Transport Stream packet timing is lost and it becomes much more difficult to generate the correct 1394 packet timestamp.

There is a correct way to calculate 1394 timestamps from a stored Transport Stream, but it's not easy. Current cable box implementations don't seem to have arrived at the optimum algorithm yet.

Ron

...they're not worried about how many 1st generation copies you make as long as the copy process is real-time and sequential.

Clearly, cable boxes are providing this functionality. However, there are complaints about how well the move function works (that is, there are glitches, dropouts and other impairments). This is entirely a software implementation problem having to do with generating the correct 1394 packet timestamp values. When a bitstream is stored on disc, the original Transport Stream packet timing is lost and it becomes much more difficult to generate the correct 1394 packet timestamp.

There is a correct way to calculate 1394 timestamps from a stored Transport Stream, but it's not easy. Current cable box implementations don't seem to have arrived at the optimum algorithm yet.

Ron
Thanks for your erudite explanation. I am happy to at least be able to record the live stream off my Motorola STBs via 1394 to my DVCRs. The RadioShack VCR programmer works very well for me for this purpose. Trying to transfer material from the hard drives of the STBs to my DVCRs is fraught with difficulties. I did report this "problem" to Verizon technical support but have not heard anything back.

No Copy Move feature ever happening in the history of the univese is where Hollywood shows its real colors. Whenever all the D-VHS decks wear out you'll be able to Time-shift on a DVR but not Archive! I told everyone this long ago!

Copy Move = Archiving. No Copy Move = the eventual after the demise of D-VHS death of Archiving! Why? For one simple reason--if you can't ARCHIVE HD movies and can't have a good size collection of them the chances that you will then purchase HD movies on Hd-DVD or Blue Ray INCREASE.

And for all you copyright lovers out there --while it may be true that a copy on a DVR is a copy it is not as tangible and as easy to carry around your own home as a D-VHS copy is now, is it? DVR copies are not as MOVABLE as D-VHS copies so please spare me all the self righteous crap about people already having a copy or the world would come to an end if a COPY MOVE feature that allowed no FURTHER COPYING would Rape the copyright holder. That's just an out and out lie!

It is technologically feasible to design a Copy Move Feature from DVR to D-VHS that would not be susceptible to future copying and also don't give me a bunch of crap about--well people could defeat it! So What? People can rob banks too--that doesn't mean we get rid of all banks! How DRACONIAN does protection of Copyright holders at the expense of Archivist who are not breaking the law HAVE to be? This isn't about fair use--it's about PERPETUAL control to make more money!

It's all about money--it always HAS been and for all you disingenuous obfuscators of the truth out there who will rally to the support of the indefenseable I give you this challenge:

If ARCHIVING is OK Let's see the MPAA advocate allowing Copy Move from DVR to D-VHS! That will never happen and that Proves what Hollywood is really after--No archiving so they can sell more HD-DVDs and Blue Ray discs! Case Closed! Fair Use Killed! Video Consumer screwed! Industry Plants overjoyed! Congressman from BOTH parties re-elected while Hollywood LAUGHS at making the DUMB American public make it even richer!

P.S. To all the great 1394 and FCC officials out there: Do you believe there is NO coinincidence between all the handshake problems and flag recognition problems and the fact that Hollywood in their heart of hearts just doesn't want the public to be able to make a "Copy Never" Copy of a movie from a premium service such as HBO, Showwtime, etc over Firewire from a Cable set-top box? Do you think they're really that INEPT at making such a thing work? GIMME a break!

Do you also think that there isn't something the least bit strange in satellite providers making HD archival recording impossible and manufacturers making so few D-VHS recorders?!

Wake up! Fair Use will only happen if it is ENFORCED against the financial interests of all the interlocking Movie content/cable and satellite providers/D-VHS possible manufacturing companies! Right now Fair use is hanging by a thread of D-VHS machines that will ultimately wear out and it only works on a hit or miss basis for super geeks who can figure all the Byzantine intricacies of making it work! Most of the time there are problems even for the know-it-alls!

If you don't want people making Copy Never Archival copies then just come out and say it! Just please spare us the charade of giving a damn about the Video consumer who wants to Archive--if everyone really wanted that to happen--the Video consumer would fund it--the real question is will the Video Consumer have to fund the Content providers in a BIGGER way because Archival collections will not exist! Does that sound like America? Listen to your heart--let Fair Use and Freedom Ring!
Artwood,
Thank you for having the courage to speak up and tell the truth about the real motives of Hollywood and defend our rights as law abiding consumers. We need more people like you for our voice, clearly and loudly, be heard.

BTW, 1394TA's presentation to the FCC is available here:

http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518332075
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518332076

Thank you James Snider, Murray Kerdman, and the 1394 Trade Association.

Thank you James Snider, Murray Kerdman, and the 1394 Trade Association.Well, they do have a vested interest.

The SA8300 HD-DVR I have locks up my 30K and 40K via firewire. They cannot talk to each other. But the 8300 works OK with the Mitsubishi 2K.

Today I will try a brand new JVC 5U with the DVR and pray it works properly.

Matt, I've been lurking here for awhile,and have gotten alot of good info from this forum. But you seem to have conquered something specific to an issue that I'm experiencing, and I was wondering if you could help me out.

I have an SA 8300, JVC 5U, Mits 2000, and Sony 34" HD CRT. Trying to get the 8300 to work with the JVC is a joke, but I thought I'd have little, if any, problems getting the Mits to work with it. Unfortunately, when I try to view or record on the Mits through firewire from the 8300, all I get is a black screen. (This is not the general warning screen on the Mits when viewed through the s-vid inputs while trying to watch HD.) It's odd, because I know the firewire ports are enabled--I can see the output from them just fine on the Sony. And I know that the Sony is getting a signal from the Mits as well, because I recorded about 15 seconds of HD onto D-VHS with the JVC (before it crapped out), and I can play that tape back on the Mits and see it on the Sony.

I just can't get the Mits to see and record live (or recorded) HD from the 8300.

Is there something special you did to get it to work? Did you connect the firewire in any special sequence or turn the power on to the units in any special way? I've even tried resetting the order of the firewire connections through the Mits menu, still to no avail. The picture looks absolutely fabulous off the 8300 to the Sony, so I feel like must be missing something simple.

If you have any tips I'd be incredibly grateful. Thanks!

Well, they do have a vested interest.

Unfortunately, so do I.

Is anyone in Dallas using a firewire dvhs setup?

I tried recording stuff off of comcast's local channels as well as TNT-HD and I get the "no copy" message.

What is the deal with local channels being encrypted?

equipment - mits integrated qam tuner -> mits 1100u

Is anyone in Dallas using a firewire dvhs setup?

I tried recording stuff off of comcast's local channels as well as TNT-HD and I get the "no copy" message.

What is the deal with local channels being encrypted?

equipment - mits integrated qam tuner -> mits 1100u

Rakesh.S, I haven't tried between the 6412 and a DVHS but I can get local HD channel transfers between the 6412 and an HTPC using 1394. I can only get the locals, however. I get nothing at all from HBO-HD, Show-HD, Max-HD, Starz-HD, InHD, InHD2, ESPN-HD, Disc-HD & TNT-HD using SASEM. The software actually does record but the files are all of null value. This I assume is because the channels are encrypted (5c). I can get audio from the SD channels but no video. But nothing at all on the HD channels except for locals.

I have pretty well relinquished to the fact that we won't get any real HD recording flexibility from cable and/or satellite companies until Cablecard 2.0 devices become mainstream. These entities don't trust us (consumers) with their digital stream so they are resisting at all cost to allowing the stream open to us unless extreme gateguarding measures are in place. Even with 5c copy once/copy never flags they aren't satisfied. So until Cablecard can get both into consumer level STBs (DVRs, DVD recorders, DVHS etc) and PCs (by way of Windows Vista) we're not going to get a truly flexible digital recording scheme - I don't care who is "fighting for us" - re: 1394TA. My opinion.

Ed, thanks for the reply..That is really strange.

It is disappointing that they still aren't satisfied despite the robustness of 5C.

My antenna works great and recordings are perfect...I guess I will stick to OTA.

Have a Motorola DCT6400, IEEE 1394 port is active and can be seen by Windows XP - do not have XP Drivers to recognize

I presume you know to change the 5U channel to "I". This causes the 5U to see the 1394 input. When you change to channel I you should get a "-1" after the "I" to indicate synchronization. You will get a higher number than 1 if you have other 1394 devices.

Cable Provider: Comcast (Radnor, PA - outside Philadelphia)
Date: April, 2006
STB: Motorola DCT3412 I (all digital version of the 6412)
D-VHS: JVC HM-DH5U (April 2006)
TV: Sharp XV-Z9000U HD DLP projector, 5 years old
Other 1394 devices? No

1. The 1394 sync between the 3412 and the 5U is OK.
2. I can record live from the 3412 STB to the 5U. I have a lip sync problem, but I think it is in the 3412 processing.
3. The 5U cannot see the channel information, menus, etc. from the 3412 STB.
4. The 5U recognized the 3412 STB over the 1394 automatically.
5. The 5U cannot control the STB over the Firewire (don't know if it should).

I've been getting the feeling that, while cable companies are required to provide working firewire to their customers, it doesn't have to be in all of their hardware, or even the best of their hardware. Their top-of-the-line high def, dual-tuner, DVR box might not have firewire enabled... But if you ask for firewire out, they'll be happy to provide you with a standard-def no-DVR cable box that has it enabled.

I've been getting the feeling that, while cable companies are required to provide working firewire to their customers, it doesn't have to be in all of their hardware, or even the best of their hardware.For those cable companies the FCC rule applies to ... it applies to all new high definition boxes the cable company buys after July 1, 2005:Cable operators shall:
(...)
ii) Effective July 1, 2005, include both a DVI or HDMI interface and an IEEE 1394 interface on all high definition set-top boxes acquired by a cable operator for distribution to customers.For boxes the cable company bought before that ... no ... all they had to do was provide a box (with Firewire). Any box.4) Cable operators shall:

(i) Effective April 1, 2004, upon request of a customer, replace any leased high definition set-top box, which does not include a functional IEEE 1394 interface, with one that includes a functional IEEE 1394 interface or upgrade the customer's set-top box by download or other means to ensure that the IEEE 1394 interface is functional.

47CFR76.640
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/09nov20051500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/47cfr76.640.htm

For those cable companies the FCC rule applies to ... it applies to all new high definition boxes the cable company buys after July 1, 2005:For boxes the cable company bought before that ... no ... all they had to do was provide a box (with Firewire). Any box.

47CFR76.640
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/09nov20051500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/47cfr76.640.htm

Ah! Good to know my feeling was right, but that things are looking better now. I had my HD DVR replaced in October, so as long as they didn't give me old stock, my Firewire port should be active. I'll have to give it a try.

I have a 3250HD I just picked up to replace the faulty one I had and DVI is active, but like all SA boxes I have seen, cannot shake hands with my Sanyo Z2 projector. The Z2 has no problems with other DVI devices.

Firewire, however, is more stable than the previous 3250HD box.

Once again, the Networks are NOT viewable via Firewire because the idiots have the copy freely flags mismatched and cannot fix them no matter what I do in talking with them. Idiots.

We have 2 Moxi HD DVR's through Adelphia in SoCal, we have the older model BMC 9012 STB which HAS firewire ports, and we also have the newer BMC 9022D model. Now, i ASSUMED, because of the FCC mandate, that this BRAND NEW 9022D box i had come with activated firewire ports, as it is ESSENTIALLY the same as the 9012. So, after having it for a month and a half, i ordered a firewire cable this weekend, and this afternoon it showed up. Pulled the box out of the cabinet and long and behold, NO FIREWIRE!!!!!

WTF, don't ALL newly purchased (by the cable company-Adelphia) STB's (now i forget whether it's only HD boxes or only DVR's, but this is an HD DVR, so it definately falls under the FCC rule) HAVE to have active firewire ports? At one point i read the EXACT FCC mandate, and this Moxi certainly falls under this category. I called Adelphia and he informed me the BMC 9022D model is only an "overflow box" for SoCal, and that it was not widely deployed and will be used to employ new features down the road, and he said he was not aware of any BMC 9022D's with firewire. What the hell? I'm not THAT hearbroken, but there's no way i'm changing out the 9022 in my room for a 9012, as the 9022 has a 160 GB hard drive, double that of the 9012. I don't even see why Digeo/Motorola would PRODUCE a box without firewire at this point. THIS BAFFLES ME, although pretty much i'm stuck for now, as Moxi is the only HD DVR available from Adelphia in my area, and i DEFINATELY will not let go of my 160 GB HD for a PUNY 80 GB hard drive, especially with the increasing amount of HD i'm recording.

Any thoughts?

Look people--nowadays unless some kind of police are going to enforce a law there isn't a law.

Either sue or just take it!

Look people--nowadays unless some kind of police are going to enforce a law there isn't a law.

Either sue or just take it!
Feedback through proper FCC channels HAS resolved firewire issues for some people. The FCC will not RAID the cable company, but if they don't comply, steep, and might i add costly, consequences can be enforced.

Not all laws are enforced by the police, that's why we have other agencies- what do you think the FDA, DEA, ATF, INS, FBI, etc. are for? The FCC is the same thing, but i don't think we need ARMED officers to enforce firewire recording mandates!!! Is that what you just proposed? Give me a break. :rolleyes:

I think the FCC enforces firewire recording mandates with the same zeal that the Border Patrol arrests people it knows are here illegally.

I also think that the FCC is supported by the rest of our government in that enforcement to the same degree that the border patrol is supported.

In other words: Let's get REAL about REAL enforcement. Just because you know something isn't being enforced doesn' mean that you're a fascist or a zenophobe. I don't think the FCC should shoot people.

I do think they should MAKE Cable companies obey the law! If they ever do I'll gladly take a break!

The only thing here that is ever considered worse than anybody not buying something is a threat of a lawsuit. Why? If there aren't grounds it won't happen or will be squashed rather quickly. If it does have warrant the companies should redress what might be wrong and settle out of court.

I guess that's what REALLY terrorizes SOME people here.

P.S.: twitchee3: I do respect your opinion.

I think the FCC enforces firewire recording mandates with the same zeal that the Border Patrol arrests people it knows are here illegally.

I also think that the FCC is supported by the rest of our government in that enforcement to the same degree that the border patrol is supported.

In other words: Let's get REAL about REAL enforcement. Just because you know something isn't being enforced doesn' mean that you're a fascist or a zenophobe. I don't think the FCC should shoot people.

I do think they should MAKE Cable companies obey the law! If they ever do I'll gladly take a break!

The only thing here that is ever considered worse than anybody not buying something is a threat of a lawsuit. Why? If there aren't grounds it won't happen or will be squashed rather quickly. If it does have warrant the companies should redress what might be wrong and settle out of court.

I guess that's what REALLY terrorizes SOME people here.

P.S.: twitchee3: I do respect your opinion.
The FCC DOES enforce it's mandates, it's just that a very small portion of cable subscribers are even aware of the firewire functionality, much less the FCC mandate. The only way the FCC will know whether or not the cable companies are doing what they should is if people complain when they don't comply. The cable companies ARE STOCKED with firewire STB's, but as far as giving them to their customers and applying appropriate 5c flags, the ONLY way the FCC can be aware of this is through consumer feedback and complaints. So, very few complaints get lodged because of the very few people that try to use firewire, and when there IS a complaint lodged through the PROPER channels of the FCC, the mandate IS ENFORCED.

By the way, the Border Patrol is NOT in charge of dealing with illegal aliens IN the heart of the country, they are merely employed to contain illegals in the process of crossing the borders. It is the job of the INS to deal with illegals already established in the country, and often they are zealous in their pursuits, however they are under funded, and local law enforcement agencies (local police) rarely cooperate and sometimes have rules (such as the LAPD) that PROHIBIT them from taking action against suspected illegal aliens.

I think the if the FCC REALLY wanted to enforce it's mandates it would be amenable to the idea of starting a reporting system here at the AVS Forum. Go to the HD Recorders forum and you'll see a ZILLION posts about Firewire problems.

The patriot patrols see illegals everyday crossing and report it and the border patrol doesn't respond. Local Police do nothing because they don't have the jurisdiction.

I'm saying the FCC KNOWS what is happening with Firewire--pays lip service to denouncing it--and makes TOKEN efforts to pretend that it is doing anything about it.

I'll tell you this: Run a freakin' CB radio with too much power and see how fast the FCC responds. Ask Howard Stern how fast the FCC responds.

Why doesn't the FCC aggressively enforce Firewire rules--because many of he people who work at the FCC previously worked at the Industries they're regulating--which of course is necessary because you have to have knowledge and expertise and those are the people who have it.

The problem of course is the mindset of such people---after having worked for those industries for a good number of years many of the regulators are sympathetic to what those Industries want which may not coincide with the public interest.

Not to mention the fact that there is always the opportunity for the revolving door sundrome.

All buisnesses in this country react when their MONEY is threatened. It's sad but that's why the threat of lawsuits sometimes is the ONLY thing that gets companies to move.

It's all probably a mute point because eventually Firewire will be useless anyway if the MPAA and the Content Copyright holders get their wish.

Ever watched a Senate hearing on the issue? People complain about Republicans and Democrats always being at each other's throats. When it comes to RECORDING issues they are hand in hand walking over the rights of the video consumer and archivists everywhere.

I don't mind if anyone has views different than mine--I still say SUE! While you're SUEING file a complaint with the FCC. Go to the house of the president of your local cable provider and express your views. Write your congressman. Run for President of the US on the Archivist party ticket!

All these things may be just tilting at windmills but something tells me they may do more than just filing a complaint with the FCC!

If all else fails enlist border patrol agents and illegal aliens who like to archive also in your campaign. Maybe someone will listen then!

I think the if the FCC REALLY wanted to enforce it's mandates it would be amenable to the idea of starting a reporting system here at the AVS Forum. Go to the HD Recorders forum and you'll see a ZILLION posts about Firewire problems.

The patriot patrols see illegals everyday crossing and report it and the border patrol doesn't respond. Local Police do nothing because they don't have the jurisdiction.

I'm saying the FCC KNOWS what is happening with Firewire--pays lip service to denouncing it--and makes TOKEN efforts to pretend that it is doing anything about it.

I'll tell you this: Run a freakin' CB radio with too much power and see how fast the FCC responds. Ask Howard Stern how fast the FCC responds.

Why doesn't the FCC aggressively enforce Firewire rules--because many of he people who work at the FCC previously worked at the Industries they're regulating--which of course is necessary because you have to have knowledge and expertise and those are the people who have it.

The problem of course is the mindset of such people---after having worked for those industries for a good number of years many of the regulators are sympathetic to what those Industries want which may not coincide with the public interest.

Not to mention the fact that there is always the opportunity for the revolving door sundrome.

All buisnesses in this country react when their MONEY is threatened. It's sad but that's why the threat of lawsuits sometimes is the ONLY thing that gets companies to move.

It's all probably a mute point because eventually Firewire will be useless anyway if the MPAA and the Content Copyright holders get their wish.

Ever watched a Senate hearing on the issue? People complain about Republicans and Democrats always being at each other's throats. When it comes to RECORDING issues they are hand in hand walking over the rights of the video consumer and archivists everywhere.

I don't mind if anyone has views different than mine--I still say SUE! While you're SUEING file a complaint with the FCC. Go to the house of the president of your local cable provider and express your views. Write your congressman. Run for President of the US on the Archivist party ticket!

All these things may be just tilting at windmills but something tells me they may do more than just filing a complaint with the FCC!
All your points are valid, however if one would simply file a complaint with the FCC about their specific predicament, then it is likely THAT particular issue would be cleared up. I do agree however, that there is no active interest in enforcing these mandates, which are really not LAWS set in stone, but still are supposed to be abided by. You're right, without putting their profits in jeopardy, companies will do nothing for the consumer. There are very few companies out there (although some do exist, i've had GREAT experiences with certain companies) that still care about their customers and are willing to deal with lengthy customer support.

If all else fails enlist border patrol agents and illegal aliens who like to archive also in your campaign. Maybe someone will listen then!
LOL :p

Ask Howard Stern how fast the FCC responds.Ask the FCC how many complaints they get about Howard Stern ...

Anyway, you can register a complaint about cable support of Firewire with the FCC here:
http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cib/fcc475.cfm

And you can submit any comments you wish about cable Firewire implementation here (Proceeding 97-80):
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/upload_v2.cgi

But ... I suppose it's easier to sit back and scream that someone, somewhere, other than yourself should be doing something ... without you doing anything. God bless America.

dt_dc: If you were working at the FCC would you do all in your power to help me with a complaint? God bless you dt_dc!

I had the opportunity to visit a Comcast customers house in the Bay Area and debug the 1394 connection from a Motorola DCT-6412 (running version 09.19 firmware) to a JVC 40K D-VHS deck. The customer had complained that the JVC 40K was unable to record (or even decode) any copy-one-generation 5C encrypted channel on the system. Copy-free channels were still working okay.

I hooked up a 1394 bus analyzer and took this trace.

Version 4.01, Copyright (c) 2000, Data Transit, All Rights Reserved.


Pod Type: FI
Infile: mot6412.bin
Outfile: mot6412.txt
Date: 05/21/06, 03:24:14
Options:
State Capture
Pro Analyzer

TIME X-TO-O ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
SS.MMM.UUU.NNN ³STATE LISTING³
ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ


X-MARK O-MARK X-TO-O TRIG


TCODE OR QUADDATA
STORE# EVENT TYPE SPD MSB LSB CNT DESCRIPTION FIELD TIMESTAMP
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
000000 WR_REQ_BLOCK 100 FFC14510 01 DEST=3FF:01 TL=11 RT=1 PRI=0 0.000 US /* JVC 40K sends STATUS message */
000001 ASYNC 100 FFC3FFFF 02 SRC= 3FF:03 0.330 US
000002 ASYNC 100 F0000B00 03 DEST OFFSET=FFFF:F000:0B00 0.320 US
000003 ASYNC 100 000C0000 04 LENGTH=000C EXT-TCOD=RESERVED 0.330 US
000004 ASYNC 100 47C6A640 05 0.320 US
000005 ASYNC 100 01FF0F00 06 0.330 US
000006 ASYNC 100 FFFFFFFF 07 0.320 US
000007 ASYNC 100 FFFFFFFF 08 0.330 US
000008 ASYNC 100 936DC0AA 09 0.330 US
000009 ACK 100 2D ACK_PENDING 0.870 US
000010 SUBACTN GAP 100 10.81 US
000011 WR_RESPONSE 100 FFC34420 01 DEST=3FF:03 TL=11 RT=0 PRI=0 359.9 US
000012 ASYNC 100 FFC10000 02 SRC= 3FF:01 RCODE=RESP_COMPLETE 0.330 US
000013 ASYNC 100 00000000 03 0.320 US
000014 ASYNC 100 C8916E3F 04 HEADER CRC 0.330 US
000015 ACK 100 1E ACK_COMPLETE 1.300 US
000016 SUBACTN GAP 100 10.80 US
000017 WR_REQ_BLOCK 400 FFC3CC10 01 DEST=3FF:03 TL=33 RT=0 PRI=0 826.2 US /* DCT-6412 responds to STATUS message okay */
000018 ASYNC 400 FFC1FFFF 02 SRC= 3FF:01 0.080 US
000019 ASYNC 400 F0000D00 03 DEST OFFSET=FFFF:F000:0D00 0.080 US
000020 ASYNC 400 000C0000 04 LENGTH=000C EXT-TCOD=RESERVED 0.080 US
000021 ASYNC 400 4B3C3776 05 0.080 US
000022 ASYNC 400 0CFF0F00 06 0.080 US
000023 ASYNC 400 FF0607FF 07 0.080 US
000024 ASYNC 400 FFF0FFF4 08 0.090 US
000025 ASYNC 400 4D1F5F9F 09 0.080 US
000026 ACK 400 2D ACK_PENDING 1.160 US
000027 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.78 US
000028 WR_RESPONSE 400 FFC1CD20 01 DEST=3FF:01 TL=33 RT=1 PRI=0 274.6 US
000029 ASYNC 400 FFC30000 02 SRC= 3FF:03 RCODE=RESP_COMPLETE 0.080 US
000030 ASYNC 400 00000000 03 0.080 US
000031 ASYNC 400 4A603A02 04 HEADER CRC 0.080 US
000032 ACK 400 1E ACK_COMPLETE 0.630 US
000033 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.81 US
000034 WR_REQ_BLOCK 100 FFC14910 01 DEST=3FF:01 TL=12 RT=1 PRI=0 1.039 MS /* JVC 40K sends CHALLENGE */
000035 ASYNC 100 FFC3FFFF 02 SRC= 3FF:03 0.330 US /* this is the DTCP certificate */
000036 ASYNC 100 F0000B00 03 DEST OFFSET=FFFF:F000:0B00 0.320 US
000037 ASYNC 100 00740000 04 LENGTH=0074 EXT-TCOD=RESERVED 0.330 US
000038 ASYNC 100 3495D0FD 05 0.320 US
000039 ASYNC 100 00FF0F00 06 0.330 US
000040 ASYNC 100 01040701 07 0.320 US
000041 ASYNC 100 AC0F0068 08 0.330 US
000042 ASYNC 100 2389351D 09 0.320 US
000043 ASYNC 100 08EBE48B 10 0.330 US
000044 ASYNC 100 85D5E38B 11 0.330 US
000045 ASYNC 100 38EF01BD 12 0.320 US
000046 ASYNC 100 010000C0 13 0.330 US
000047 ASYNC 100 00028287 14 0.320 US
000048 ASYNC 100 8AA66534 15 0.330 US
000049 ASYNC 100 E9FCA603 16 0.320 US
000050 ASYNC 100 47623FC1 17 0.330 US
000051 ASYNC 100 EDA9038F 18 0.320 US
000052 ASYNC 100 C229F452 19 0.330 US
000053 ASYNC 100 873EEEF8 20 0.330 US
000054 ASYNC 100 7E96EBFE 21 0.320 US
000055 ASYNC 100 A965D813 22 0.330 US
000056 ASYNC 100 4E585147 23 0.320 US
000057 ASYNC 100 AEF16F70 24 0.330 US
000058 ASYNC 100 00A3D4FD 25 0.320 US
000059 ASYNC 100 7ABE2E9E 26 0.330 US
000060 ASYNC 100 6E547F65 27 0.320 US
000061 ASYNC 100 F9C8CD11 28 0.330 US
000062 ASYNC 100 2E825D8A 29 0.320 US
000063 ASYNC 100 007FF841 30 0.330 US
000064 ASYNC 100 5EFC17D4 >30 0.330 US
000065 ASYNC 100 9EE2407D >30 0.320 US
000066 ASYNC 100 7EEB5CD7 >30 0.330 US
000067 ASYNC 100 740FA4DB >30 0.320 US
000068 ASYNC 100 885CFC6B >30 0.330 US
000069 ACK 100 2D ACK_PENDING 0.870 US
000070 SUBACTN GAP 100 10.81 US
000071 WR_RESPONSE 100 FFC34820 01 DEST=3FF:03 TL=12 RT=0 PRI=0 408.4 US
000072 ASYNC 100 FFC10000 02 SRC= 3FF:01 RCODE=RESP_COMPLETE 0.330 US
000073 ASYNC 100 00000000 03 0.320 US
000074 ASYNC 100 D4D0A129 04 HEADER CRC 0.330 US
000075 ACK 100 1E ACK_COMPLETE 1.280 US
000076 SUBACTN GAP 100 10.81 US
000077 WR_REQ_BLOCK 400 FFC3D010 01 DEST=3FF:03 TL=34 RT=0 PRI=0 2.241 MS /* DCT-6412 responds okay */
000078 ASYNC 400 FFC1FFFF 02 SRC= 3FF:01 0.080 US
000079 ASYNC 400 F0000D00 03 DEST OFFSET=FFFF:F000:0D00 0.080 US
000080 ASYNC 400 000C0000 04 LENGTH=000C EXT-TCOD=RESERVED 0.080 US
000081 ASYNC 400 0A66C66F 05 0.080 US
000082 ASYNC 400 09FF0F00 06 0.080 US
000083 ASYNC 400 01040701 07 0.080 US
000084 ASYNC 400 AC000068 08 0.080 US
000085 ASYNC 400 2B8F1EA8 09 0.090 US
000086 ACK 400 2D ACK_PENDING 1.140 US
000087 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.78 US
000088 WR_RESPONSE 400 FFC1D120 01 DEST=3FF:01 TL=34 RT=1 PRI=0 253.9 US
000089 ASYNC 400 FFC30000 02 SRC= 3FF:03 RCODE=RESP_COMPLETE 0.080 US
000090 ASYNC 400 00000000 03 0.080 US
000091 ASYNC 400 79231EDC 04 HEADER CRC 0.080 US
000092 ACK 400 1E ACK_COMPLETE 0.630 US
000093 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.79 US
000094 WR_REQ_BLOCK 100 FFC14D10 01 DEST=3FF:01 TL=13 RT=1 PRI=0 998.4 MS /* one second goes by */
000095 ASYNC 100 FFC3FFFF 02 SRC= 3FF:03 0.330 US /* JVC 40K 1 second timer expires */
000096 ASYNC 100 F0000B00 03 DEST OFFSET=FFFF:F000:0B00 0.320 US /* JVC 40K sends AKE_CANCEL */
000097 ASYNC 100 000C0000 04 LENGTH=000C EXT-TCOD=RESERVED 0.330 US
000098 ASYNC 100 71FAEB26 05 0.320 US
000099 ASYNC 100 00FF0F00 06 0.330 US
000100 ASYNC 100 C0040001 07 0.320 US
000101 ASYNC 100 AC0F0000 08 0.330 US
000102 ASYNC 100 4F34E2CF 09 0.330 US
000103 ACK 100 2D ACK_PENDING 0.870 US
000104 SUBACTN GAP 100 10.79 US
000105 WR_RESPONSE 100 FFC34C20 01 DEST=3FF:03 TL=13 RT=0 PRI=0 1.786 MS
000106 ASYNC 100 FFC10000 02 SRC= 3FF:01 RCODE=RESP_COMPLETE 0.330 US
000107 ASYNC 100 00000000 03 0.330 US
000108 ASYNC 100 DF101BDB 04 HEADER CRC 0.320 US
000109 ACK 100 1E ACK_COMPLETE 1.300 US
000110 SUBACTN GAP 100 10.79 US
000111 WR_REQ_BLOCK 400 FFC3D410 01 DEST=3FF:03 TL=35 RT=0 PRI=0 661.9 US /* DCT-6412 accepts AKE_CANCEL */
000112 ASYNC 400 FFC1FFFF 02 SRC= 3FF:01 0.080 US
000113 ASYNC 400 F0000D00 03 DEST OFFSET=FFFF:F000:0D00 0.090 US
000114 ASYNC 400 000C0000 04 LENGTH=000C EXT-TCOD=RESERVED 0.080 US
000115 ASYNC 400 1178E0DC 05 0.080 US
000116 ASYNC 400 09FF0F00 06 0.080 US
000117 ASYNC 400 C0040001 07 0.080 US
000118 ASYNC 400 AC000000 08 0.080 US
000119 ASYNC 400 7CBB3A54 09 0.080 US
000120 ACK 400 2D ACK_PENDING 1.140 US
000121 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.81 US
000122 WR_RESPONSE 400 FFC1D520 01 DEST=3FF:01 TL=35 RT=1 PRI=0 286.4 US
000123 ASYNC 400 FFC30000 02 SRC= 3FF:03 RCODE=RESP_COMPLETE 0.090 US
000124 ASYNC 400 00000000 03 0.080 US
000125 ASYNC 400 72E3A42E 04 HEADER CRC 0.080 US
000126 ACK 400 1E ACK_COMPLETE 0.630 US
000127 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.80 US
000128 WR_REQ_BLOCK 400 FFC3D810 01 DEST=3FF:03 TL=36 RT=0 PRI=0 154.8 MS /* after another 154 milliseconds */
000129 ASYNC 400 FFC1FFFF 02 SRC= 3FF:01 0.080 US /* DCT-6412 sends CHALLENGE */
000130 ASYNC 400 F0000B00 03 DEST OFFSET=FFFF:F000:0B00 0.080 US
000131 ASYNC 400 00740000 04 LENGTH=0074 EXT-TCOD=RESERVED 0.080 US
000132 ASYNC 400 38DBB971 05 0.080 US
000133 ASYNC 400 00FF0F00 06 0.080 US
000134 ASYNC 400 01040700 07 0.080 US
000135 ASYNC 400 AC0F0068 08 0.090 US
000136 ASYNC 400 F205AD76 09 0.080 US
000137 ASYNC 400 6C892623 10 0.080 US
000138 ASYNC 400 FF16B62B 11 0.080 US
000139 ASYNC 400 41C3A971 12 0.080 US
000140 ASYNC 400 01000014 13 0.080 US
000141 ASYNC 400 00121C95 14 0.080 US
000142 ASYNC 400 64A51D55 15 0.090 US
000143 ASYNC 400 3405FD3B 16 0.080 US
000144 ASYNC 400 B6258A76 17 0.080 US
000145 ASYNC 400 44E675CD 18 0.080 US
000146 ASYNC 400 7C7EB683 19 0.080 US
000147 ASYNC 400 79342645 20 0.080 US
000148 ASYNC 400 8FE44A37 21 0.080 US
000149 ASYNC 400 AC279552 22 0.080 US
000150 ASYNC 400 41EAF4FC 23 0.090 US
000151 ASYNC 400 7212CC83 24 0.080 US
000152 ASYNC 400 00D2B3DF 25 0.080 US
000153 ASYNC 400 4C8D60EF 26 0.080 US
000154 ASYNC 400 C356AF81 27 0.080 US
000155 ASYNC 400 2C70C157 28 0.080 US
000156 ASYNC 400 87433654 29 0.080 US
000157 ASYNC 400 019AACBF 30 0.090 US
000158 ASYNC 400 9E8E59E4 >30 0.080 US
000159 ASYNC 400 0A813D60 >30 0.080 US
000160 ASYNC 400 347E1416 >30 0.080 US
000161 ASYNC 400 6C7E62FF >30 0.080 US
000162 ASYNC 400 7AE95BA0 >30 0.080 US
000163 ACK 400 2D ACK_PENDING 1.140 US
000164 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.81 US
000165 WR_RESPONSE 400 FFC1D920 01 DEST=3FF:01 TL=36 RT=1 PRI=0 671.8 US
000166 ASYNC 400 FFC30000 02 SRC= 3FF:03 RCODE=RESP_COMPLETE 0.080 US
000167 ASYNC 400 00000000 03 0.080 US
000168 ASYNC 400 6EA26B38 04 HEADER CRC 0.090 US
000169 ACK 400 1E ACK_COMPLETE 0.630 US
000170 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.80 US
000171 WR_REQ_BLOCK 400 FFC15110 01 DEST=3FF:01 TL=14 RT=1 PRI=0 2.049 MS /* too late by 1.154 sec, JVC 40K sends REJECTED */
000172 ASYNC 400 FFC3FFFF 02 SRC= 3FF:03 0.090 US
000173 ASYNC 400 F0000D00 03 DEST OFFSET=FFFF:F000:0D00 0.080 US
000174 ASYNC 400 000C0000 04 LENGTH=000C EXT-TCOD=RESERVED 0.080 US
000175 ASYNC 400 6A50352F 05 0.080 US
000176 ASYNC 400 0AFF0F00 06 0.080 US
000177 ASYNC 400 01040700 07 0.080 US
000178 ASYNC 400 AC070068 08 0.080 US
000179 ASYNC 400 6F921BBA 09 0.080 US
000180 ACK 400 2D ACK_PENDING 0.640 US
000181 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.80 US
000182 WR_RESPONSE 400 FFC35020 01 DEST=3FF:03 TL=14 RT=0 PRI=0 495.6 US
000183 ASYNC 400 FFC10000 02 SRC= 3FF:01 RCODE=RESP_COMPLETE 0.080 US
000184 ASYNC 400 00000000 03 0.080 US
000185 ASYNC 400 EC533F05 04 HEADER CRC 0.080 US
000186 ACK 400 1E ACK_COMPLETE 1.160 US
000187 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.78 US
000188 WR_REQ_BLOCK 100 FFC15510 01 DEST=3FF:01 TL=15 RT=1 PRI=0 1.835 SEC /* JVC 40K tries the key exchange again */
000189 ASYNC 100 FFC3FFFF 02 SRC= 3FF:03 0.330 US /* JVC 40K sends STATUS message */
000190 ASYNC 100 F0000B00 03 DEST OFFSET=FFFF:F000:0B00 0.320 US
000191 ASYNC 100 000C0000 04 LENGTH=000C EXT-TCOD=RESERVED 0.330 US
000192 ASYNC 100 2BBE3C8C 05 0.320 US
000193 ASYNC 100 01FF0F00 06 0.330 US
000194 ASYNC 100 FFFFFFFF 07 0.330 US
000195 ASYNC 100 FFFFFFFF 08 0.320 US
000196 ASYNC 100 936DC0AA 09 0.330 US
000197 ACK 100 2D ACK_PENDING 0.870 US
000198 SUBACTN GAP 100 10.81 US
000199 WR_RESPONSE 100 FFC35420 01 DEST=3FF:03 TL=15 RT=0 PRI=0 316.4 US
000200 ASYNC 100 FFC10000 02 SRC= 3FF:01 RCODE=RESP_COMPLETE 0.330 US
000201 ASYNC 100 00000000 03 0.320 US
000202 ASYNC 100 E79385F7 04 HEADER CRC 0.330 US
000203 ACK 100 1E ACK_COMPLETE 1.280 US
000204 SUBACTN GAP 100 10.81 US
000205 WR_REQ_BLOCK 400 FFC3DC10 01 DEST=3FF:03 TL=37 RT=0 PRI=0 747.2 US /* DCT-6412 responds to STATUS message okay */
000206 ASYNC 400 FFC1FFFF 02 SRC= 3FF:01 0.080 US
000207 ASYNC 400 F0000D00 03 DEST OFFSET=FFFF:F000:0D00 0.080 US
000208 ASYNC 400 000C0000 04 LENGTH=000C EXT-TCOD=RESERVED 0.080 US
000209 ASYNC 400 2744ADBA 05 0.080 US
000210 ASYNC 400 0CFF0F00 06 0.080 US
000211 ASYNC 400 FF0607FF 07 0.090 US
000212 ASYNC 400 FFF0FFF4 08 0.080 US
000213 ASYNC 400 4D1F5F9F 09 0.080 US
000214 ACK 400 2D ACK_PENDING 1.140 US
000215 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.78 US
000216 WR_RESPONSE 400 FFC1DD20 01 DEST=3FF:01 TL=37 RT=1 PRI=0 209.8 US
000217 ASYNC 400 FFC30000 02 SRC= 3FF:03 RCODE=RESP_COMPLETE 0.080 US
000218 ASYNC 400 00000000 03 0.080 US
000219 ASYNC 400 6562D1CA 04 HEADER CRC 0.090 US
000220 ACK 400 1E ACK_COMPLETE 0.630 US
000221 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.80 US
000222 WR_REQ_BLOCK 100 FFC15910 01 DEST=3FF:01 TL=16 RT=1 PRI=0 2.675 MS /* JVC 40K sends CHALLENGE */
000223 ASYNC 100 FFC3FFFF 02 SRC= 3FF:03 0.330 US
000224 ASYNC 100 F0000B00 03 DEST OFFSET=FFFF:F000:0B00 0.320 US
000225 ASYNC 100 00740000 04 LENGTH=0074 EXT-TCOD=RESERVED 0.330 US
000226 ASYNC 100 58ED4A31 05 0.320 US
000227 ASYNC 100 00FF0F00 06 0.330 US
000228 ASYNC 100 01040701 07 0.330 US
000229 ASYNC 100 AD0F0068 08 0.320 US
000230 ASYNC 100 6D64AAD9 09 0.330 US
000231 ASYNC 100 67114B5D 10 0.320 US
000232 ASYNC 100 7CA1EB0F 11 0.330 US
000233 ASYNC 100 5E9C1F6B 12 0.320 US
000234 ASYNC 100 010000C0 13 0.330 US
000235 ASYNC 100 00028287 14 0.320 US
000236 ASYNC 100 8AA66534 15 0.330 US
000237 ASYNC 100 E9FCA603 16 0.330 US
000238 ASYNC 100 47623FC1 17 0.320 US
000239 ASYNC 100 EDA9038F 18 0.330 US
000240 ASYNC 100 C229F452 19 0.320 US
000241 ASYNC 100 873EEEF8 20 0.330 US
000242 ASYNC 100 7E96EBFE 21 0.320 US
000243 ASYNC 100 A965D813 22 0.330 US
000244 ASYNC 100 4E585147 23 0.320 US
000245 ASYNC 100 AEF16F70 24 0.330 US
000246 ASYNC 100 00A3D4FD 25 0.330 US
000247 ASYNC 100 7ABE2E9E 26 0.320 US
000248 ASYNC 100 6E547F65 27 0.330 US
000249 ASYNC 100 F9C8CD11 28 0.320 US
000250 ASYNC 100 2E825D8A 29 0.330 US
000251 ASYNC 100 007FF841 30 0.320 US
000252 ASYNC 100 5EFC17D4 >30 0.330 US
000253 ASYNC 100 9EE2407D >30 0.320 US
000254 ASYNC 100 7EEB5CD7 >30 0.330 US
000255 ASYNC 100 740FA4DB >30 0.320 US
000256 ASYNC 100 5A0A7EC1 >30 0.330 US
000257 ACK 100 2D ACK_PENDING 0.880 US
000258 SUBACTN GAP 100 10.80 US
000259 WR_RESPONSE 100 FFC35820 01 DEST=3FF:03 TL=16 RT=0 PRI=0 557.7 US
000260 ASYNC 100 FFC10000 02 SRC= 3FF:01 RCODE=RESP_COMPLETE 0.320 US
000261 ASYNC 100 00000000 03 0.330 US
000262 ASYNC 100 FBD24AE1 04 HEADER CRC 0.320 US
000263 ACK 100 1E ACK_COMPLETE 1.290 US
000264 SUBACTN GAP 100 10.80 US
000265 WR_REQ_BLOCK 400 FFC3E010 01 DEST=3FF:03 TL=38 RT=0 PRI=0 735.8 US /* DCT-6412 responds okay */
000266 ASYNC 400 FFC1FFFF 02 SRC= 3FF:01 0.080 US
000267 ASYNC 400 F0000D00 03 DEST OFFSET=FFFF:F000:0D00 0.090 US
000268 ASYNC 400 000C0000 04 LENGTH=000C EXT-TCOD=RESERVED 0.080 US
000269 ASYNC 400 BEEF693B 05 0.080 US
000270 ASYNC 400 09FF0F00 06 0.080 US
000271 ASYNC 400 01040701 07 0.080 US
000272 ASYNC 400 AD000068 08 0.080 US
000273 ASYNC 400 F7E2841F 09 0.080 US
000274 ACK 400 2D ACK_PENDING 1.140 US
000275 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.79 US
000276 WR_RESPONSE 400 FFC1E120 01 DEST=3FF:01 TL=38 RT=1 PRI=0 216.9 US
000277 ASYNC 400 FFC30000 02 SRC= 3FF:03 RCODE=RESP_COMPLETE 0.090 US
000278 ASYNC 400 00000000 03 0.080 US
000279 ASYNC 400 08242284 04 HEADER CRC 0.080 US
000280 ACK 400 1E ACK_COMPLETE 0.630 US
000281 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.80 US
000282 WR_REQ_BLOCK 100 FFC15D10 01 DEST=3FF:01 TL=17 RT=1 PRI=0 988.8 MS /* one second goes by */
000283 ASYNC 100 FFC3FFFF 02 SRC= 3FF:03 0.330 US /* JVC 40K 1 second timer expires */
000284 ASYNC 100 F0000B00 03 DEST OFFSET=FFFF:F000:0B00 0.320 US /* JVC 40K sends AKE_CANCEL */
000285 ASYNC 100 000C0000 04 LENGTH=000C EXT-TCOD=RESERVED 0.330 US
000286 ASYNC 100 1D8271EA 05 0.320 US
000287 ASYNC 100 00FF0F00 06 0.330 US
000288 ASYNC 100 C0040001 07 0.320 US
000289 ASYNC 100 AD0F0000 08 0.330 US
000290 ASYNC 100 93597878 09 0.330 US
000291 ACK 100 2D ACK_PENDING 0.870 US
000292 SUBACTN GAP 100 10.80 US
000293 WR_RESPONSE 100 FFC35C20 01 DEST=3FF:03 TL=17 RT=0 PRI=0 419.2 US
000294 ASYNC 100 FFC10000 02 SRC= 3FF:01 RCODE=RESP_COMPLETE 0.330 US
000295 ASYNC 100 00000000 03 0.330 US
000296 ASYNC 100 F012F013 04 HEADER CRC 0.320 US
000297 ACK 100 1E ACK_COMPLETE 1.300 US
000298 SUBACTN GAP 100 10.81 US
000299 WR_REQ_BLOCK 400 FFC3E410 01 DEST=3FF:03 TL=39 RT=0 PRI=0 1.406 MS /* DCT-6412 accepts AKE_CANCEL */
000300 ASYNC 400 FFC1FFFF 02 SRC= 3FF:01 0.080 US
000301 ASYNC 400 F0000D00 03 DEST OFFSET=FFFF:F000:0D00 0.080 US
000302 ASYNC 400 000C0000 04 LENGTH=000C EXT-TCOD=RESERVED 0.080 US
000303 ASYNC 400 A5F14F88 05 0.090 US
000304 ASYNC 400 09FF0F00 06 0.080 US
000305 ASYNC 400 C0040001 07 0.080 US
000306 ASYNC 400 AD000000 08 0.080 US
000307 ASYNC 400 A0D6A0E3 09 0.080 US
000308 ACK 400 2D ACK_PENDING 1.140 US
000309 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.80 US
000310 WR_RESPONSE 400 FFC1E520 01 DEST=3FF:01 TL=39 RT=1 PRI=0 237.1 US
000311 ASYNC 400 FFC30000 02 SRC= 3FF:03 RCODE=RESP_COMPLETE 0.090 US
000312 ASYNC 400 00000000 03 0.080 US
000313 ASYNC 400 03E49876 04 HEADER CRC 0.080 US
000314 ACK 400 1E ACK_COMPLETE 0.630 US
000315 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.80 US
000316 WR_REQ_BLOCK 400 FFC3E810 01 DEST=3FF:03 TL=3A RT=0 PRI=0 260.3 MS /* after another 260 milliseconds */
000317 ASYNC 400 FFC1FFFF 02 SRC= 3FF:01 0.080 US /* DCT-6412 sends CHALLENGE */
000318 ASYNC 400 F0000B00 03 DEST OFFSET=FFFF:F000:0B00 0.080 US
000319 ASYNC 400 00740000 04 LENGTH=0074 EXT-TCOD=RESERVED 0.080 US
000320 ASYNC 400 8C521625 05 0.080 US
000321 ASYNC 400 00FF0F00 06 0.080 US
000322 ASYNC 400 01040700 07 0.090 US
000323 ASYNC 400 AD0F0068 08 0.080 US
000324 ASYNC 400 01C8B8C4 09 0.080 US
000325 ASYNC 400 3720D06A 10 0.080 US
000326 ASYNC 400 05DF0BC1 11 0.080 US
000327 ASYNC 400 77C85C07 12 0.080 US
000328 ASYNC 400 01000014 13 0.080 US
000329 ASYNC 400 00121C95 14 0.090 US
000330 ASYNC 400 64A51D55 15 0.080 US
000331 ASYNC 400 3405FD3B 16 0.080 US
000332 ASYNC 400 B6258A76 17 0.080 US
000333 ASYNC 400 44E675CD 18 0.080 US
000334 ASYNC 400 7C7EB683 19 0.080 US
000335 ASYNC 400 79342645 20 0.080 US
000336 ASYNC 400 8FE44A37 21 0.090 US
000337 ASYNC 400 AC279552 22 0.080 US
000338 ASYNC 400 41EAF4FC 23 0.080 US
000339 ASYNC 400 7212CC83 24 0.080 US
000340 ASYNC 400 00D2B3DF 25 0.080 US
000341 ASYNC 400 4C8D60EF 26 0.080 US
000342 ASYNC 400 C356AF81 27 0.080 US
000343 ASYNC 400 2C70C157 28 0.080 US
000344 ASYNC 400 87433654 29 0.090 US
000345 ASYNC 400 019AACBF 30 0.080 US
000346 ASYNC 400 9E8E59E4 >30 0.080 US
000347 ASYNC 400 0A813D60 >30 0.080 US
000348 ASYNC 400 347E1416 >30 0.080 US
000349 ASYNC 400 6C7E62FF >30 0.080 US
000350 ASYNC 400 C457F3B1 >30 0.080 US
000351 ACK 400 2D ACK_PENDING 1.160 US
000352 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.81 US
000353 WR_RESPONSE 400 FFC1E920 01 DEST=3FF:01 TL=3A RT=1 PRI=0 217.3 US
000354 ASYNC 400 FFC30000 02 SRC= 3FF:03 RCODE=RESP_COMPLETE 0.090 US
000355 ASYNC 400 00000000 03 0.080 US
000356 ASYNC 400 1FA55760 04 HEADER CRC 0.080 US
000357 ACK 400 1E ACK_COMPLETE 0.630 US
000358 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.80 US
000359 WR_REQ_BLOCK 400 FFC16110 01 DEST=3FF:01 TL=18 RT=1 PRI=0 1.113 MS /* too late by 1.26 sec, JVC 40K sends REJECTED */
000360 ASYNC 400 FFC3FFFF 02 SRC= 3FF:03 0.080 US
000361 ASYNC 400 F0000D00 03 DEST OFFSET=FFFF:F000:0D00 0.090 US
000362 ASYNC 400 000C0000 04 LENGTH=000C EXT-TCOD=RESERVED 0.080 US
000363 ASYNC 400 DED99A7B 05 0.080 US
000364 ASYNC 400 0AFF0F00 06 0.080 US
000365 ASYNC 400 01040700 07 0.080 US
000366 ASYNC 400 AD070068 08 0.080 US
000367 ASYNC 400 B3FF810D 09 0.080 US
000368 ACK 400 2D ACK_PENDING 0.630 US
000369 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.81 US
000370 WR_RESPONSE 400 FFC36020 01 DEST=3FF:03 TL=18 RT=0 PRI=0 375.1 US
000371 ASYNC 400 FFC10000 02 SRC= 3FF:01 RCODE=RESP_COMPLETE 0.080 US
000372 ASYNC 400 00000000 03 0.080 US
000373 ASYNC 400 9D54035D 04 HEADER CRC 0.080 US
000374 ACK 400 1E ACK_COMPLETE 1.160 US
000375 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.81 US
000376 WR_REQ_BLOCK 100 FFC16510 01 DEST=3FF:01 TL=19 RT=1 PRI=0 1.729 SEC /* JVC 40K tries the key exchange again */
000377 ASYNC 100 FFC3FFFF 02 SRC= 3FF:03 0.330 US /* JVC 40K sends STATUS message */
000378 ASYNC 100 F0000B00 03 DEST OFFSET=FFFF:F000:0B00 0.320 US
000379 ASYNC 100 000C0000 04 LENGTH=000C EXT-TCOD=RESERVED 0.330 US
000380 ASYNC 100 9F3793D8 05 0.320 US
000381 ASYNC 100 01FF0F00 06 0.330 US
000382 ASYNC 100 FFFFFFFF 07 0.320 US
000383 ASYNC 100 FFFFFFFF 08 0.330 US
000384 ASYNC 100 936DC0AA 09 0.330 US
000385 ACK 100 2D ACK_PENDING 0.870 US
000386 SUBACTN GAP 100 10.81 US
000387 WR_RESPONSE 100 FFC36420 01 DEST=3FF:03 TL=19 RT=0 PRI=0 353.0 US
000388 ASYNC 100 FFC10000 02 SRC= 3FF:01 RCODE=RESP_COMPLETE 0.330 US
000389 ASYNC 100 00000000 03 0.320 US
000390 ASYNC 100 9694B9AF 04 HEADER CRC 0.330 US
000391 ACK 100 1E ACK_COMPLETE 1.300 US
000392 SUBACTN GAP 100 10.81 US
000393 WR_REQ_BLOCK 400 FFC3EC10 01 DEST=3FF:03 TL=3B RT=0 PRI=0 736.5 US /* DCT-6412 responds to STATUS message okay */
000394 ASYNC 400 FFC1FFFF 02 SRC= 3FF:01 0.080 US
000395 ASYNC 400 F0000D00 03 DEST OFFSET=FFFF:F000:0D00 0.080 US
000396 ASYNC 400 000C0000 04 LENGTH=000C EXT-TCOD=RESERVED 0.080 US
000397 ASYNC 400 93CD02EE 05 0.080 US
000398 ASYNC 400 0CFF0F00 06 0.080 US
000399 ASYNC 400 FF0607FF 07 0.080 US
000400 ASYNC 400 FFF0FFF4 08 0.090 US
000401 ASYNC 400 4D1F5F9F 09 0.080 US
000402 ACK 400 2D ACK_PENDING 1.160 US
000403 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.78 US
000404 WR_RESPONSE 400 FFC1ED20 01 DEST=3FF:01 TL=3B RT=1 PRI=0 280.2 US
000405 ASYNC 400 FFC30000 02 SRC= 3FF:03 RCODE=RESP_COMPLETE 0.090 US
000406 ASYNC 400 00000000 03 0.080 US
000407 ASYNC 400 1465ED92 04 HEADER CRC 0.080 US
000408 ACK 400 1E ACK_COMPLETE 0.630 US
000409 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.78 US
000410 WR_REQ_BLOCK 100 FFC16910 01 DEST=3FF:01 TL=1A RT=1 PRI=0 2.089 MS /* JVC 40K sends CHALLENGE */
000411 ASYNC 100 FFC3FFFF 02 SRC= 3FF:03 0.320 US
000412 ASYNC 100 F0000B00 03 DEST OFFSET=FFFF:F000:0B00 0.330 US
000413 ASYNC 100 00740000 04 LENGTH=0074 EXT-TCOD=RESERVED 0.320 US
000414 ASYNC 100 EC64E565 05 0.330 US
000415 ASYNC 100 00FF0F00 06 0.320 US
000416 ASYNC 100 01040701 07 0.330 US
000417 ASYNC 100 AE0F0068 08 0.320 US
000418 ASYNC 100 1D3303FC 09 0.330 US
000419 ASYNC 100 30A99AD2 10 0.330 US
000420 ASYNC 100 FB54A807 11 0.320 US
000421 ASYNC 100 AE27F716 12 0.330 US
000422 ASYNC 100 010000C0 13 0.320 US
000423 ASYNC 100 00028287 14 0.330 US
000424 ASYNC 100 8AA66534 15 0.320 US
000425 ASYNC 100 E9FCA603 16 0.330 US
000426 ASYNC 100 47623FC1 17 0.320 US
000427 ASYNC 100 EDA9038F 18 0.330 US
000428 ASYNC 100 C229F452 19 0.330 US
000429 ASYNC 100 873EEEF8 20 0.320 US
000430 ASYNC 100 7E96EBFE 21 0.330 US
000431 ASYNC 100 A965D813 22 0.320 US
000432 ASYNC 100 4E585147 23 0.330 US
000433 ASYNC 100 AEF16F70 24 0.320 US
000434 ASYNC 100 00A3D4FD 25 0.330 US
000435 ASYNC 100 7ABE2E9E 26 0.320 US
000436 ASYNC 100 6E547F65 27 0.330 US
000437 ASYNC 100 F9C8CD11 28 0.330 US
000438 ASYNC 100 2E825D8A 29 0.320 US
000439 ASYNC 100 007FF841 30 0.330 US
000440 ASYNC 100 5EFC17D4 >30 0.320 US
000441 ASYNC 100 9EE2407D >30 0.330 US
000442 ASYNC 100 7EEB5CD7 >30 0.320 US
000443 ASYNC 100 740FA4DB >30 0.330 US
000444 ASYNC 100 5D151233 >30 0.320 US
000445 ACK 100 2D ACK_PENDING 0.880 US
000446 SUBACTN GAP 100 10.78 US
000447 WR_RESPONSE 100 FFC36820 01 DEST=3FF:03 TL=1A RT=0 PRI=0 334.0 US
000448 ASYNC 100 FFC10000 02 SRC= 3FF:01 RCODE=RESP_COMPLETE 0.320 US
000449 ASYNC 100 00000000 03 0.330 US
000450 ASYNC 100 8AD576B9 04 HEADER CRC 0.330 US
000451 ACK 100 1E ACK_COMPLETE 1.300 US
000452 SUBACTN GAP 100 10.80 US
000453 WR_REQ_BLOCK 400 FFC3F010 01 DEST=3FF:03 TL=3C RT=0 PRI=0 720.8 US /* DCT-6412 responds okay */
000454 ASYNC 400 FFC1FFFF 02 SRC= 3FF:01 0.080 US
000455 ASYNC 400 F0000D00 03 DEST OFFSET=FFFF:F000:0D00 0.080 US
000456 ASYNC 400 000C0000 04 LENGTH=000C EXT-TCOD=RESERVED 0.080 US
000457 ASYNC 400 D297F3F7 05 0.080 US
000458 ASYNC 400 09FF0F00 06 0.080 US
000459 ASYNC 400 01040701 07 0.090 US
000460 ASYNC 400 AE000068 08 0.080 US
000461 ASYNC 400 97953671 09 0.080 US
000462 ACK 400 2D ACK_PENDING 1.140 US
000463 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.80 US
000464 WR_RESPONSE 400 FFC1F120 01 DEST=3FF:01 TL=3C RT=1 PRI=0 257.3 US
000465 ASYNC 400 FFC30000 02 SRC= 3FF:03 RCODE=RESP_COMPLETE 0.080 US
000466 ASYNC 400 00000000 03 0.080 US
000467 ASYNC 400 2726C94C 04 HEADER CRC 0.080 US
000468 ACK 400 1E ACK_COMPLETE 0.630 US
000469 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.81 US
000470 WR_REQ_BLOCK 100 FFC16D10 01 DEST=3FF:01 TL=1B RT=1 PRI=0 997.0 MS /* one second goes by */
000471 ASYNC 100 FFC3FFFF 02 SRC= 3FF:03 0.330 US /* JVC 40K 1 second timer expires */
000472 ASYNC 100 F0000B00 03 DEST OFFSET=FFFF:F000:0B00 0.320 US /* JVC 40K sends AKE_CANCEL */
000473 ASYNC 100 000C0000 04 LENGTH=000C EXT-TCOD=RESERVED 0.330 US
000474 ASYNC 100 A90BDEBE 05 0.320 US
000475 ASYNC 100 00FF0F00 06 0.330 US
000476 ASYNC 100 C0040001 07 0.320 US
000477 ASYNC 100 AE0F0000 08 0.330 US
000478 ASYNC 100 F32ECA16 09 0.330 US
000479 ACK 100 2D ACK_PENDING 0.870 US
000480 SUBACTN GAP 100 10.79 US
000481 WR_RESPONSE 100 FFC36C20 01 DEST=3FF:03 TL=1B RT=0 PRI=0 605.0 US
000482 ASYNC 100 FFC10000 02 SRC= 3FF:01 RCODE=RESP_COMPLETE 0.320 US
000483 ASYNC 100 00000000 03 0.330 US
000484 ASYNC 100 8115CC4B 04 HEADER CRC 0.320 US
000485 ACK 100 1E ACK_COMPLETE 1.280 US
000486 SUBACTN GAP 100 10.81 US
000487 WR_REQ_BLOCK 400 FFC3F410 01 DEST=3FF:03 TL=3D RT=0 PRI=0 686.1 US /* DCT-6412 accepts AKE_CANCEL */
000488 ASYNC 400 FFC1FFFF 02 SRC= 3FF:01 0.090 US
000489 ASYNC 400 F0000D00 03 DEST OFFSET=FFFF:F000:0D00 0.080 US
000490 ASYNC 400 000C0000 04 LENGTH=000C EXT-TCOD=RESERVED 0.080 US
000491 ASYNC 400 C989D544 05 0.080 US
000492 ASYNC 400 09FF0F00 06 0.080 US
000493 ASYNC 400 C0040001 07 0.080 US
000494 ASYNC 400 AE000000 08 0.080 US
000495 ASYNC 400 C0A1128D 09 0.090 US
000496 ACK 400 2D ACK_PENDING 1.130 US
000497 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.81 US
000498 WR_RESPONSE 400 FFC1F520 01 DEST=3FF:01 TL=3D RT=1 PRI=0 166.7 US
000499 ASYNC 400 FFC30000 02 SRC= 3FF:03 RCODE=RESP_COMPLETE 0.080 US
000500 ASYNC 400 00000000 03 0.080 US
000501 ASYNC 400 2CE673BE 04 HEADER CRC 0.080 US
000502 ACK 400 1E ACK_COMPLETE 0.630 US
000503 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.81 US
000504 WR_REQ_BLOCK 400 FFC3F810 01 DEST=3FF:03 TL=3E RT=0 PRI=0 144.5 MS /* after another 144 milliseconds */
000505 ASYNC 400 FFC1FFFF 02 SRC= 3FF:01 0.090 US /* DCT-6412 sends CHALLENGE */
000506 ASYNC 400 F0000B00 03 DEST OFFSET=FFFF:F000:0B00 0.080 US
000507 ASYNC 400 00740000 04 LENGTH=0074 EXT-TCOD=RESERVED 0.080 US
000508 ASYNC 400 E02A8CE9 05 0.080 US
000509 ASYNC 400 00FF0F00 06 0.080 US
000510 ASYNC 400 01040700 07 0.080 US
000511 ASYNC 400 AE0F0068 08 0.080 US
000512 ASYNC 400 D163B8ED 09 0.090 US
000513 ASYNC 400 E4B8DC9C 10 0.080 US
000514 ASYNC 400 F918A106 11 0.080 US
000515 ASYNC 400 E1CEC8B1 12 0.080 US
000516 ASYNC 400 01000014 13 0.080 US
000517 ASYNC 400 00121C95 14 0.080 US
000518 ASYNC 400 64A51D55 15 0.080 US
000519 ASYNC 400 3405FD3B 16 0.080 US
000520 ASYNC 400 B6258A76 17 0.090 US
000521 ASYNC 400 44E675CD 18 0.080 US
000522 ASYNC 400 7C7EB683 19 0.080 US
000523 ASYNC 400 79342645 20 0.080 US
000524 ASYNC 400 8FE44A37 21 0.080 US
000525 ASYNC 400 AC279552 22 0.080 US
000526 ASYNC 400 41EAF4FC 23 0.080 US
000527 ASYNC 400 7212CC83 24 0.090 US
000528 ASYNC 400 00D2B3DF 25 0.080 US
000529 ASYNC 400 4C8D60EF 26 0.080 US
000530 ASYNC 400 C356AF81 27 0.080 US
000531 ASYNC 400 2C70C157 28 0.080 US
000532 ASYNC 400 87433654 29 0.080 US
000533 ASYNC 400 019AACBF 30 0.080 US
000534 ASYNC 400 9E8E59E4 >30 0.080 US
000535 ASYNC 400 0A813D60 >30 0.090 US
000536 ASYNC 400 347E1416 >30 0.080 US
000537 ASYNC 400 6C7E62FF >30 0.080 US
000538 ASYNC 400 D35CD373 >30 0.080 US
000539 ACK 400 2D ACK_PENDING 1.140 US
000540 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.81 US
000541 WR_RESPONSE 400 FFC1F920 01 DEST=3FF:01 TL=3E RT=1 PRI=0 198.9 US
000542 ASYNC 400 FFC30000 02 SRC= 3FF:03 RCODE=RESP_COMPLETE 0.080 US
000543 ASYNC 400 00000000 03 0.080 US
000544 ASYNC 400 30A7BCA8 04 HEADER CRC 0.080 US
000545 ACK 400 1E ACK_COMPLETE 0.630 US
000546 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.81 US
000547 WR_REQ_BLOCK 400 FFC17110 01 DEST=3FF:01 TL=1C RT=1 PRI=0 169.1 US /* too late by 1.144 sec, JVC 40K sends REJECTED */
000548 ASYNC 400 FFC3FFFF 02 SRC= 3FF:03 0.090 US
000549 ASYNC 400 F0000D00 03 DEST OFFSET=FFFF:F000:0D00 0.080 US
000550 ASYNC 400 000C0000 04 LENGTH=000C EXT-TCOD=RESERVED 0.080 US
000551 ASYNC 400 B2A100B7 05 0.080 US
000552 ASYNC 400 0AFF0F00 06 0.080 US
000553 ASYNC 400 01040700 07 0.080 US
000554 ASYNC 400 AE070068 08 0.080 US
000555 ASYNC 400 D3883363 09 0.090 US
000556 ACK 400 2D ACK_PENDING 0.610 US
000557 SUBACTN GAP 400 10.80 US
000558 WR_RESPONSE 400 FFC37020 01 DEST=3FF:03 TL=1C RT=0 PRI=0 288.3 US
000559 ASYNC 400 FFC10000 02 SRC= 3FF:01 RCODE=RESP_COMPLETE 0.080 US
000560 ASYNC 400 00000000 03 0.080 US
000561 ASYNC 400 B256E895 04 HEADER CRC 0.080 US
000562 ACK 400 1E ACK_COMPLETE 1.160 US

Version 4.01, Copyright (c) 2000, Data Transit, All Rights Reserved.


The DCT-6412 always causes the JVC 40K to timeout on the key exchange. Since the key exchange never completes, the JVC 40K cannot decrypt (and therefore, decode or record) the copy-one-generation streams being sent from the DCT-6412.

My guess is that for this version of firmware, the priority of the 1394 task was reduced to solve some other performance problem.

Ron

Comcast (Eatontown,NJ) reports a firmware update to their 8300 stb (SARA) that activates the firewire port as of today 23 May

have not had a chance to confirm this

As amazing as this might seem, this is the perfect documentation to present the FCC with.

I can record to a DVHS (any of the JVC models or the Mitsubishi Models) via IEEE 1394 via my SA3250.

Recording via the SA8300HD is impossible. It records for 30 seconds, then flashes CP and then shuts down.

The big cable company (in a Top 12 Market) was stumped and said the SARA controlled SA3250HD (non-DVR) and SA-8300HD (DVR) had identical 5c settings.

There problem was they did not have a DVHS to test the system with.

I loaned them one of my many Mitsubishi 2000s. That was 6 months ago.

Let me repeat....that was 6 months ago. THEY HAVE HAD MY DVHS FOR 6 MONTHS FOR TESTING.

I continue to follow up each month and I know they have contacted SA multiple times, but thus far NO RESOLUTION.

If this is not the poster child for the lack of IEEE 1394 support.

I have complete documentation including names and dates from their emails.

The requirement was IEEE 1394 was supposed to be working in April of 2004.

2 years later and 6 months of equipment loan, they still cannot get it working correctly - and they put the fault with SA - who they have been working with?

Again, this is the case to show the FCC how ridiculous this whole thing is.

As amazing as this might seem, this is the perfect documentation to present the FCC with.

I can record to a DVHS (any of the JVC models or the Mitsubishi Models) via IEEE 1394 via my SA3250.

Recording via the SA8300HD is impossible. It records for 30 seconds, then flashes CP and then shuts down.

The big cable company (in a Top 12 Market) was stumped and said the SARA controlled SA3250HD (non-DVR) and SA-8300HD (DVR) had identical 5c settings.

There problem was they did not have a DVHS to test the system with.

I loaned them one of my many Mitsubishi 2000s. That was 6 months ago.

Let me repeat....that was 6 months ago. THEY HAVE HAD MY DVHS FOR 6 MONTHS FOR TESTING.

I continue to follow up each month and I know they have contacted SA multiple times, but thus far NO RESOLUTION.

If this is not the poster child for the lack of IEEE 1394 support.

I have complete documentation including names and dates from their emails.

The requirement was IEEE 1394 was supposed to be working in April of 2004.

2 years later and 6 months of equipment loan, they still cannot get it working correctly - and they put the fault with SA - who they have been working with?

Again, this is the case to show the FCC how ridiculous this whole thing is.
Ridiculous, yes, but illegal, no. You voluntarily lent them your DVHS deck, and as you have clearly stated, they HAVE and CAN provide you with an HD STB with enabled and functional firewire ports, which is all they are required to do by law. Although it would be GREAT and EXTREMELY convenient for your HD DVR to have functioning firewire ports, they "technically" don't have to provide this.

I agree though, the FCC should more widely enforce the "all new HD STB's (purchased by the cable companies after a certain date) must have firewire" much more strictly. With firewire in general, cable companies are usually clueless.....................what a bummer for us users who like to archive our HD content....................functionality is coming though, once the technology is outdated it will work fine, that's how it always turns out. By the time they have it mastered, there's something new to learn. We've had it down for a few years, but they are stubborn and refuse to convert and change their ways................

The intent of the law is clear.

They did not require IEEE 1394 ports and DVI/HDMI ports on all Digital STBs after 6/30/2005 because they wanted them as decoration pieces.

The intent of the law is clear.

They did not require IEEE 1394 ports and DVI/HDMI ports on all Digital STBs after 6/30/2005 because they wanted them as decoration pieces.
No, but you can't interpret the law by what they "meant." The law can be enforced only as it appears in official documentation, not what was discussed by those who passed it.

The intent of the law is clear.

They did not require IEEE 1394 ports and DVI/HDMI ports on all Digital STBs after 6/30/2005 because they wanted them as decoration pieces.

I agree. The argument that required 1394 ports are not necessarily required to be functioning doesn't even pass the laugh test.

Courts often look at the intent of the law, or regulation in this case. In any event, the FCC can always adopt a new reg if a court finds differently.

I doubt any cable company would bother arguing this point -- its easier just to comply (have SA update the firmware!) rather than spend the money to litigate it only to have the fcc modify the reg.

I agree. The argument that required 1394 ports are not necessarily required to be functioning doesn't even pass the laugh test.

Courts often look at the intent of the law, or regulation in this case. In any event, the FCC can always adopt a new reg if a court finds differently.

I doubt any cable company would bother arguing this point -- its easier just to comply (have SA update the firmware!) rather than spend the money to litigate it only to have the fcc modify the reg.
HDTVFanAtic was replying to MY statement, which had nothing to do with supplied firewire ports being functional, because i agree with you on this issue, if firewire is there and the box supports it, IT SHOULD FUNCTION, period. If you had read my statement, you would know that i was referring to the fact that they ARE NOT obligated to supply consumers with a firewire enabled DVR or a specific STB with firewire, but ANY HD STB with firewire (which SHOULD BE FUNCTIONAL). In other words, if you have a 6412 without firewire and you want firewire functionality, the cable company does not have to give you another 6412 with active firewire, the law simply states they need to give you A box with firewire, so you may very well get a non DVR 6200.

There are two regs -- the reg requiring the CC to provide a firewire enabled box to the consumer and the reg requiring all boxes purchased by the cable company after 6/30/05 include a firewire port.

For the latter reg, clearly TWC has been purchasing the 8300HD box after the effective date of the reg. These boxes do not have functional firewire ports as everyone here has posted. TWC is in violation.

There are two regs -- the reg requiring the CC to provide a firewire enabled box to the consumer and the reg requiring all boxes purchased by the cable company after 6/30/05 include a firewire port.

For the latter reg, clearly TWC has been purchasing the 8300HD box after the effective date of the reg. These boxes do not have functional firewire ports as everyone here has posted. TWC is in violation.
I know about the second regulation, however, your assertion as to when the boxes were purchased is PURE speculation. While it is definately possible, these boxes were being produced WELL before the cutoff date, so there's no way to tell unless you dig into the situation. You can't just say, well it looks new, so they're violating the law. It doesn't work that way. Perhaps you should look for a manufacturer date code or something of that nature on the box itself so you will have proof that they did indeed violate the FCC mandate. I'm sure you could also, through the proper channels, find out when the cable company purchased your batch of DVR's.

I know about the second regulation, however, your assertion as to when the boxes were purchased is PURE speculation. While it is definately possible, these boxes were being produced WELL before the cutoff date, so there's no way to tell unless you dig into the situation. You can't just say, well it looks new, so they're violating the law. It doesn't work that way. Perhaps you should look for a manufacturer date code or something of that nature on the box itself so you will have proof that they did indeed violate the FCC mandate. I'm sure you could also, through the proper channels, find out when the cable company purchased your batch of DVR's.


Here we are sitting almost one year later and you're telling me its speculation that new boxes have not been purchased since that time? Come on.

The bottom line is the newest version of firmware for the 8300HD does not include fully functional support for firewire. The newest firmware has been applied to 8300HD boxes regardless of the manufacter date.

And yes, I had verified with TWC that my 8300HD was purchased by TWC after the cutoff date. Before the cutoff date, my local TWC was purchasing 8300HDs without a firewire port. After the cutoff date, all the boxes they purchased had them.

Here we are sitting almost one year later and you're telling me its speculation that new boxes have not been purchased since that time? Come on.

The bottom line is the newest version of firmware for the 8300HD does not include fully functional support for firewire. The newest firmware has been applied to 8300HD boxes regardless of the manufacter date.

And yes, I had verified with TWC that my 8300HD was purchased by TWC after the cutoff date. Before the cutoff date, my local TWC was purchasing 8300HDs without a firewire port. After the cutoff date, all the boxes they purchased had them.
In that case, TWC should be reported to the FCC, although you may not get results as these things are difficult to enforce.

The only thing that TALKS is a lawsuit!

The only thing that TALKS is a lawsuit!
In some cases, yes, but if you can find the correct channels at the FCC and you complain loud enough, you will be surprised what you can get accomplished.

I'd settle out of court for lifetime free cable!

I'd settle out of court for lifetime free cable!
Amen.

Guys, I am unclear about the purpose of 5c. Was 5c implimented to completely prevent the recording and streaming via firewire?

Guys, I am unclear about the purpose of 5c. Was 5c implimented to completely prevent the recording and streaming via firewire?Almost - "5C was implemented to prevent the unauthorized recording and streaming via firewire." You must have a device that properly implements the controls specified by DTCP (is that the right spec or entity?) in order to properly record, stream, or display via firewire. As of today, a PC does not qualify.

- Mike

Almost - "5C was implemented to prevent the unauthorized recording and streaming via firewire." You must have a device that properly implements the controls specified by DTCP (is that the right spec or entity?) in order to properly record, stream, or display via firewire. As of today, a PC does not qualify.

- Mike
And Software canot fix this? :( This is really obnixious

And Software canot fix this? :( This is really obnixious


You mean software cannot crack this?

Would not be very good content control if that was the case.

You mean software cannot crack this?

Would not be very good content control if that was the case.
Well look what happened to dvds.

I still say lawsuit--sometimes that is the only way to get regulatory agencies to ENFORCE their own regulations!

Maybe the FCC would like to give testimony to congressional oversight committees on how much money they waste by not enforcing their own regulations and by going to court to avoid enforcing their own regulations!

Here's a couple problems I have with 5c. I have Comcast cable in the SF Bay Area, using a Motorola 3412 HD-DVR model.

1. Channel 705, our local CBS station (HD), is not recordable at all. The SD channel, 05, is recordable. Neither reports having 5c, but the HD version just will not record.

2. A lot of our local sports games (baseball, basketball, hockey) are shown on "FSN". The SD channel (40) is not 5c protected, but when the games are shown in HD they use channel 720 which is normally "INHD" which is always 5c protected - BUT they do not turn off the 5c when showing local sports games, so they can not be recorded.

Here's a couple problems I have with 5c. I have Comcast cable in the SF Bay Area, using a Motorola 3412 HD-DVR model.

1. Channel 705, our local CBS station (HD), is not recordable at all. The SD channel, 05, is recordable. Neither reports having 5c, but the HD version just will not record.

2. A lot of our local sports games (baseball, basketball, hockey) are shown on "FSN". The SD channel (40) is not 5c protected, but when the games are shown in HD they use channel 720 which is normally "INHD" which is always 5c protected - BUT they do not turn off the 5c when showing local sports games, so they can not be recorded.


The only possible violation you listed was that CBS is not copy freely - yet you say 5c isnt turned on - thus it sounds like just another IEEE 1394 problem.

The Fox Sports Network do not have to be in the clear.

Is the Jack Valenti Gestapo back in town?

Not sure if I should post here (also posted in the Chicago HDTV area):

I used today the Comcast web site to subscribe to HD service. On the end you chat with someone. A rough experience. Took me a while to talk to someone who was understanding what Firewire is. They told me that all STB boxes have now the enabled Firewire port. Is this true?

Update: called again. I was told I get a DCT5100. Do they have an enabled Firewire port?

Not sure if I should post here (also posted in the Chicago HDTV area):

I used today the Comcast web site to subscribe to HD service. On the end you chat with someone. A rough experience. Took me a while to talk to someone who was understanding what Firewire is. They told me that all STB boxes have now the enabled Firewire port. Is this true?

Update: called again. I was told I get a DCT5100. Do they have an enabled Firewire port?
As far as I know the Dct5100 not only does not have a firewire 1394 port, it also does not have a harddrive for dvr purposes.....Get a 6208 atleast which has a 80G hd or a 6412 with a 120g HD.

metropole,
PM Kipp Jones
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?userid=3841
Need help with firewire/1394 or a local Chicago purchase? PM me. Member #3861

Anyway, you can register a complaint about cable support of Firewire with the FCC here:
http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cib/fcc475.cfm

And you can submit any comments you wish about cable Firewire implementation here (Proceeding 97-80):
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/upload_v2.cgi


Any update to this, maybe a snail mail address since email complaints sometimes carry little weight. Which people in congress have a friendly ear for this sort of thing, or have oversight?

Case reopened ;)
According to the FireWire rep (James Snider), he says that the copy on your DVR counts as one. Therefore, you would not be able to copy it again to your DVCR. Referring of course to premium content. This gibes with what vegggas said earlier: I will grant that I should be able to copy/move non-5c content from my DVR to my DVCR, but the QIP6416 is making no distinction. I have reported this to my cable provider, Verizon.
As I mentioned earlier, Phototone is the only member I know of who has had success moving content from his DVR to his DVCR and he even qualified his "success" above.
I have FIOS QIP6416-2 connected to JVC 40K through Firewire and can record prerecorded premium HD content from DVR to D-VHS without any audio or video glitches. I find that if there is going to be an audio dropout, it's apparent when watching the content through the JVC 40K (I-1) prior to recording. Simple resetting the JVC 40K by unplugging and replugging seems to resolve the problem.

This doesn't have to do with a STB, but it does have to do with a 1394 device so I though I would give it a shot in this thread:

I have a situation with a Samsung DLP and an external 1394 HDD.
1. Network prime time programming can not be played back on a AV-HDD recorded off the 1394 port of a Samsung 'S' series DLP (NO CC). The AV-HDD is a RCA 2160.
2. The same programming can be played back using the OTA tuner.
3. BUT , morning programming (the Today show for example) can be played back off the same cable feed.

Now, what I have noticed is:
1. The name of the program and station call letters are not shown in the window of the AV-HDD/ I-Link screen, either under the 'rec. list' or while the recording is in progress when recording off cable.
2. The program name and station name IS showing when recorded off the OTA tuner. This applies to AM or PM programming.
3. These four networks on TW cable, they are not re-mapped to another channel. They show on the actual cable channel.

On another set with 1394 ports and both 8VSB & QAM tuners that same programming is playable through cable though the name of the program and station call letters don't show when on cable. They do show using OTA as the Samsung. To me it appears to be a copyright issue and for some reason the Samsung is treating that programming as 'copy never'.

Please note; all of this is ID'ed as 'Copy Free' in the recording screen. I have even tried playing back that program on the other set and nothing. I assume it is the PSID (hope that's what it is called) that has information missing that the stations call letters and program name isn't passed along. But, I have no idea why that should matter regarding copyright protection. I do know that some devices will record material that has that damn flag even when you won't be allowed play it back.

I have a 6412 and a new JVC -5U. The 5U reports error 300(cannot decode) if you sneeze on any digital channels, premium and HD channels. The only cure is to cycle power on both boxes with the cable box second. If you try to replay a locally recorded HD tape, it loses Firewire permissions except for analog channels. Don't know what's behind the curtain on this behaviour.
The recordings were from the MOT DVR replay HD mode. Now after only 5 hours of use the JVC won't replay its own HD tapes. Black screen. When it was happy, the pictures were superb. Any clues?

My experience with the firewire port has revealed the interface to be flakey... not ready for the general masses. I cannot say that it is the cable box or the cable system that is at fault because the drivers and software I use on the PC could be as much to blame.

Atlanta, Comcast, Mot. 6412

I have the DCT 6200/1000 HDTV box from Charter Communications. About a year ago, I was able to record everything I wanted via firewire, even some channels that were supposedly 5C protected. I didn't record anything for a long time, then went back one day to find out that the firewire port on the back of my box had been completly disabled. The computer won't even acknowledge it's there.

Charter Cable, Mankato, MN. Motorola DCT6200/1000

I have read in other fora that not only does 5C need to equal zero for recording to occur, but CCI also needs to equal zero. I have read this setting can be found in the D6 diagnostics screen on Motorola DVRs. CCI=0 means "copy always" and CCI=2 means "copy once." Copy once sounds like plenty, until you realize they are referring to the number of times you can copy to a licensed DVHS unit. I don't know if the CCI setting is chosen by the cable company or the original source of the video feed.

Here's a couple problems I have with 5c. I have Comcast cable in the SF Bay Area, using a Motorola 3412 HD-DVR model.

1. Channel 705, our local CBS station (HD), is not recordable at all. The SD channel, 05, is recordable. Neither reports having 5c, but the HD version just will not record.

I have the DCT 6200/1000 HDTV box from Charter Communications. About a year ago, I was able to record everything I wanted via firewire, even some channels that were supposedly 5C protected. I didn't record anything for a long time, then went back one day to find out that the firewire port on the back of my box had been completly disabled. The computer won't even acknowledge it's there.

Charter Cable, Mankato, MN. Motorola DCT6200/1000


It's the same here. 5C Implementation set to 1, Active 1394 ports at 0.
TimeWarnerCable, Arcadia, CA. Motorola 6416 Phase III.

Many of us who could record from our firewire equiped cable boxes can no longer do so. A firmware upgrade has been unknowingly placed on our cable boxes, and has effectively crippled the firewire.

I filed my complaint with the FCC http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/complaints.html , and sugget you all do the same. If we consolidate we have a better chance of solving this problem. Here is an excerpt from mine:

...Recently, and this is my second complaint in this letter, firmware updates by cable
ops or box manufacturers, or both, in a conspiracy, have made recording
to PCs from cable boxes via firewire inoperative. Don't know if this was done
accidentaly or on purpose by cable ops. If on purpose, do they have
the right to block us from recording to our PCs? If so, why? Anyone
can buy a $50 USB tuner for their laptop and record OTA at will. What
is the difference? If accidental, what rights do I have to restore box to
the way it was? Recent post from attached thread shows that the
practice of sending out firmware upgrades that disable firewire is
widespread( ie it is being done by the two big cable box
manufactureres-Motorola, and Scientific Atlanta. So ultimately Time
Warner, Comcast Cable, and the like would be liable?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archive/index.php/t-403695-p-15.html

Again, what recorse do we have ???...

To my understanding, cable companies are OK blocking local and other channels from a cable box to a PC over firewire because PCs are not DCHP complaint. if an individual goes to the trouble and expense of setting up his/her own antenna and supplying an ATSC tuner card to capture HD reception, that's not their business. It's also OK to feed a coax cable into a tuner card without a box being in between. In other words, the STB is the sole domain of the cable company and we are at their discretion (having rented/leased the box). Some companies and regions allow it, others don't. It's somewhat puzzling because the FCC mandated IEEE1394 ports to be open for local OTA feeds. I'm thinking as long as an end user is off-loading to a non-compliant device, they are within their rights to block the transmissions. Otherwise, it will take a whole lotta people writing the FCC to get a response.

To my understanding, cable companies are OK blocking local and other channels from a cable box to a PC over firewire because PCs are not DCHP complaint. if an individual goes to the trouble and expense of setting up his/her own antenna and supplying an ATSC tuner card to capture HD reception, that's not their business. It's also OK to feed a coax cable into a tuner card without a box being in between. In other words, the STB is the sole domain of the cable company and we are at their discretion (having rented/leased the box). Some companies and regions allow it, others don't. It's somewhat puzzling because the FCC mandated IEEE1394 ports to be open for local OTA feeds. I'm thinking as long as an end user is off-loading to a non-compliant device, they are within their rights to block the transmissions. Otherwise, it will take a whole lotta people writing the FCC to get a response.


I have an HDCP compliant video card in my PC. Still doesn't work for me. I can play HD-DVD videos via the same PC. Something has changed.

I have Comcast in the DC area, using Motorla DCT-6200 cable box. I was able to record the shows with CapDVHS with the 5c=0 and copy freely channels for sometime now. Recently Comcast upgraded the firmware to 16.35 has cause a lot of un-explainable problem. First all channel shows 5c=0 and copy freely including OTA and premium channels such as Discovery and HBO, etc. But I am not able to record CBS and Fox shows except the commercials. I am able to record Discovery but not HBO even though diagnostic shows the same settings.

I just want to be able to capture OTA channels like I user to be able.

Anyone experience the same problem??

I have Comcast in the DC area, using Motorla DCT-6200 cable box. I was able to record the shows with CapDVHS with the 5c=0 and copy freely channels for sometime now. Recently Comcast upgraded the firmware to 16.35 has cause a lot of un-explainable problem. First all channel shows 5c=0 and copy freely including OTA and premium channels such as Discovery and HBO, etc. But I am not able to record CBS and Fox shows except the commercials. I am able to record Discovery but not HBO even though diagnostic shows the same settings.

I just want to be able to capture OTA channels like I user to be able.

Anyone experience the same problem??

I posted this on the 1394 thread as far as I can tell all of my channels are still recordable.

Well they hit me this morning around 2am with FW: 16.35 on my diagnostics it also says 1394: Enabled Yes, Active No but I can still watch TV through VLC and record HBO @Max 2,4,7 on my PC, On Demand is still a no go here in LA.

When I saw the box DL I thought okay the funs over because I knew they were going to wipe my 8.14 FW and I thought for sure I was screwed and would be canceling everything except my basic cable.

But to my surprise nothing has changed as far recording everything is still the same, so I guess I won't be canceling after all.

STB: DCT 6200 New FW: 16.35 Thurs April 19, 2007 2:00 AM

I have 8 DVR's full of recordings and can't ransfer them because my 1394 ports are disabled. we need a blu ray home recorder like they have in Japan

with component or HDMI INPUTS

Not sure where this question should be posted but im hoping its here.
I have been capping from HI DEF LOCALS from my TIME WARNER CABLE PVR for a few years now with no problems.
The receivers tho are really slow on tv guide navigation etc etc.
So i called TW up and they arrived with a new PVR but this time it was a HDMI one rather than the older DVI ones i currently have.
They replaced 3 of them and everything seemed to be fine until i tried to cap from them.
They do work but when i cap from the box and stop i then have to power down the box because the pvr fast forward or rewind will not function.
Now this happens on all 3 boxes.
Also something weird happens.
When its stuck in the wont rewind or f foward mode and i try and cap from any show while the show is playing i have sound but once i use cap dvhs the sound goes from the broadcast.
The only way to get this to work is to reset each time i cap which of course makes me lose the tv guide each time i do this.
Does anyone have any idea why this might be happening.
I have reinstalled all the software on my pc.
Im using 3 different laptops and its doing it on all 3 pvrs.
I never once had this issue with the DVI PVRS.

Has anyone tried the VCR pilot function on the Scientific Atlanta STBs to record HD content on D-VHSs; does it work?

I called Comcast technical support, and, after going down 9 levels of tree, reached an "expert".

I told her that my Comcast DVR was downsampling the recorded video from a PBS HD broadcast, as seen on the firewire output connector; and that I wanted to know how to prevent it from doing that, so that I could copy it, at full HD resolution, to a digital video tape.

She said "you have fireworks coming out of your cable box?"

(Cambridge, MA Comcast; the box is a moto 3416/2305 phase I)

That's cute and better than the second tier TimeWarner Supervisor who told me "There must be a firewall preventing you from outputting the video stream."

ok, I tried a recording to DVHS JVC HMS5U from SCi ATL 8300HD thru firewire, SD channels live works fine, analog channels do not and HD live does not work at all

I tried DVR recordings HD and Regular and they work decent, the only thing is that they hiccup audio and video quite a bit, any comments? Is this comcast or is this the HMS5U messing up the signal?
Comcast in Northern VA

new update, I get occasional audio dropouts, audio sync issues and some pixelization. Also I have seen the 5U just shut down and give error messages stating that I can't record from source use set top box. And I have seen the 5U turn off and power back up in the middle of the recording and keep going. Are these copy protection things? Is using HDMI out to the TV causing this? Should I be using component video instead?

Many of us who could record from our firewire equiped cable boxes can no longer do so. A firmware upgrade has been unknowingly placed on our cable boxes, and has effectively crippled the firewire.

I filed my complaint with the FCC http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/complaints.html , and sugget you all do the same. If we consolidate we have a better chance of solving this problem. Here is an excerpt from mine:

...Recently, and this is my second complaint in this letter, firmware updates by cable
ops or box manufacturers, or both, in a conspiracy, have made recording
to PCs from cable boxes via firewire inoperative. Don't know if this was done
accidentaly or on purpose by cable ops. If on purpose, do they have
the right to block us from recording to our PCs? If so, why? Anyone
can buy a $50 USB tuner for their laptop and record OTA at will. What
is the difference? If accidental, what rights do I have to restore box to
the way it was? Recent post from attached thread shows that the
practice of sending out firmware upgrades that disable firewire is
widespread( ie it is being done by the two big cable box
manufactureres-Motorola, and Scientific Atlanta. So ultimately Time
Warner, Comcast Cable, and the like would be liable?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archive/index.php/t-403695-p-15.html

Again, what recorse do we have ???...

Did the FCC do anything?

I have set up the IEEE1394 on my Motorola 6200 box and can record some channels, however, CBS (704) and FOX (702) are encrypted. I emailed Cox (Middle Ga) about the situation and they state that the port is open but not supported. Do I contact the local CBS and FOX affiliate about the encryption?

Tks,

smb56

Hello all. My experience with the 1394 ports on the Motorola cable box is that they work, sort of. If looking at the box from the back the port on the right won't allow HD recording on my Mitsu HSHD2000U. After about a minute of recording movies from HBO, my VCR will flash 'Error CP' or copy protected. However, switching to the left port I can record fine. Can't record HBO, Cinemax or Discovery HD with my LG DVR. I have an older non-DVR Motorola box with DVI. The 3412 I think (will have to verify). Apparently the USB 1.1 ports are inactive. What use are those anyway?

Firewire ports are only supported for AV monitors. MSO's are NOT required to make them work for recording or transfer of Digital Media.

USB ports are for Mem Sticks w/ Photos or MP3's, Keyboards, Mice & other types of pointing or control-joystick type devices.

eSATA ports are for external HDD

It is up to the MSO if they want to enable the ports and make them active. MSO's control the adding / subtracting of drivers for these ports in the STB firmware.

What regulation do you get that from? With regard to firewire, cable operators are required to support it, period. It does not matter what you want to connect it.

Title 47 of the Code of Federal Regulations, Section 76.1904, explicitly requires them to allow free copying of broadcast channels and first-generation copying of other channels except pay-per-view and video on demand (you can find the regulations here (http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_06/47cfr76_06.html)).

As for the other interfaces you mention, as far as I know there are no regulations concerning them at all so everything about them is completely up to the cable operators.

braniac,

nice link....can you narrow down where in the regs it says that permitting first-generation copying of channels (with a few exceptions) is required? if that is the case, it seems they should not be allowed to put 5C on channels except for ppv and vod, right? very interesting.

Sure, no problem - the text version of the regulation is here (http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/13nov20061500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2006/octqtr/47cfr76.1904.htm). It says (the boldface is mine to indicate where it allows first-generation copies):

(1) Commercial audiovisual content shall not be encoded so as to prevent or limit copying thereof except as follows:
(i) To prevent or limit copying of video-on-demand or pay-per-view transmissions, subject to the requirements of paragraph (b)(2) of this section; and

(ii) To prevent or limit copying, other than first generation of copies, of pay television transmissions, non-premium subscription television, and free conditional access delivery transmissions; and
(2) With respect to any commercial audiovisual content delivered or transmitted in form of a video-on-demand or pay-per-view transmission, a covered entity shall not encode such content so as to prevent a covered product, without further authorization, from pausing such content up to 90 minutes from initial transmission by the covered entity (e.g., frame-by-frame, minute-by-minute, megabyte by megabyte).

(i) allows them to protect video-on-demand and pay-per-view. (ii) allows them to also protect other pay channels, but only to a limited extent (only "other than first generation copies"); that is, they can prevent copies after the first generation, but must allow first-generation copies.

So, they actually are allowed to put 5C on other channels (as long as they are pay channels, not things like over-the-air channels they carry), but they can only mark them copy-once; they are not allowed to mark them copy-never.

I can't wait for when everything is "On Demand". :)

I can't wait for when everything is "On Demand". :)I think you will have a long wait. Cable companies are having a hard time getting license agreements from the copy right holders of the programs. TWC started a project like this called Mystro, but they dropped it.

So it is illegal for Comacast in my area to use 5C encryption on CBS HD? I have been unable to view this free-to-air channel via firewire connections since this weekend. My other HD channels still come in fine. Comcast denies that they are encrypting them and refuse to support firewire.

So it is illegal for Comacast in my area to use 5C encryption on CBS HD?Yes, it is illegal.

I have been unable to view this free-to-air channel via firewire connections since this weekend. My other HD channels still come in fine. Comcast denies that they are encrypting them and refuse to support firewire.Assuming the station in question hasn't messed something up, Comcast must be doing something wrong.

As for firewire, what's your firewire source? If it's their cable box, they have to make it work. FCC regulations state that they must supply a box with a working firewire interface upon request.

Do you know of a way to check whether the channel is encrypted and what the 5C flags are? Depending on what your firewire source is, it may have a way to do that. Let us know what you're using and someone may know.

Thanks for responding, I'm pretty sure it is a Motorola dct6200. I'll doublecheck when I get home.

I checked in the diagnostics menu and CCI is set to 0x02 and DRM is set to 0x00. I assume that means they have set the flag because the channels that work have 0x00 for these values. Other encrypted channels have values of CCI = 0x02 and DRM = 0x01. What can I do?

For a broadcast channel like CBS, they are not allowed to set CCI=0x02 (copy once), they must use CCI=0x00 (copy freely). I don't know much about the DRM value, maybe someone else can chime in on that. But in any case, I would tell them that you can see in the diagnostic screen that they are copy protecting the channel. This sounds like it may be an error and they don't realize that they're doing this.

If they don't agree to fix it, I'd remind them of the FCC regulation mentioned earlier in this thread. If they still won't fix it, I'd send a letter to them and your franchise authority (which should be listed on your bill) - I've heard of other people getting results from doing that.

thanks for the input, I also should add that the RC= 0x01 for that channel. My problem is that I don't know what CCI and RC are, just that they are different than the channels I do get. Thanks.

I'm not sure about RC, but CCI stands for "Copy Control Information." It determines the level of copy protection for the channel, and can have the values:

0x00: copy freely
0x01: no more copies
0x02: copy once
0x03: copy never

Copy freely and copy never are self-explanatory. Copy once means you can make a first-generation copy, but that copy will then be marked as "no more copies" (0x01) and you won't be allowed to make further copies from it.

Broadcast channels should be marked "copy freely" (0x00). Marking them "copy once" (0x02) is against FCC regulations.

One thing I'm wondering about is the DRM bit; does anyone know how that gets set? I seem to remember reading that the broadcast station can set that. I'm not completely certain what it does, but I'm wondering if it's part of the problem.

I'm not sure the DRM bit matters as it is set 0x00 like the rest of my locals that do work. The premiums seem to have DRM=0x01

I see - so it sounds like the problem is definitely the cable company setting CCI=0x02.

I work for a Cable Company and we have noticed recently that some local broadcasters are inserting CCI data. Whether this is intentional or not we are trying to determine. Any Channel that is unencrypted should have no CCI value other than 0x00.

[QUOTE=Brainiac 5;11647104]Yes, it is illegal.


As for firewire, what's your firewire source? If it's their cable box, they have to make it work. FCC regulations state that they must supply a box with a working firewire interface upon request.

That is not entirely accurate, they have to supply A box with a working firewire interface upon request, not necessarily your box. I went through this with Comcast and they said that if you want firewire capability you can order a Sci Atl 3250HD (non-dvr). What about the 8300HDDVR are you going to activiate the firewire port and they said no only for the 3250.

thats their way around that regulation...

I just wanted to update my current situation. After contacting Comcast twice and receiving the same canned answer, "we don't support firewire ports, just hook it up with the coaxial cable," I filed complaints with the BBB and the FCC. I immediately received a phone call from someone at Comcast that has been helpful. I also emailed tech support at my local CBS affiliate and I received a response from them as well. The short story is that Comcast and CBS agree that the flag should be set to "copy freely." The snag is that each company is blaming the other and they tell me they are working on it. They don't know how it got set. Comcast yesterday informed me that they want to close the BBB complaint because it has been decided that the problem is with CBS, not Comcast. CBS emailed me this:

"The copy protection level needs to be changed at the cable head end.

That last sentence is the point of contention. Comcast and I are working together to find the real source of your problem. They have been very cooperative, but quite a bit of this stuff is new to us all, and can have a way of hiding deep within the firmware of software of our systems, so it can take a bit of sleuthing to dig out."

The CBS guy seems helpful as well, so maybe this will be worked out before the end of the NFL season... I would urge anyone else experiencing unfair 5C protection to do what I did. Give Comcast a chance and call them, but don't expect much. The BBB complaint was the only reason that I was allowed to deal with someone who would admit that they knew what a firewire port was.

Thanks for your help.

That is not entirely accurate, they have to supply A box with a working firewire interface upon request, not necessarily your box. I went through this with Comcast and they said that if you want firewire capability you can order a Sci Atl 3250HD (non-dvr). What about the 8300HDDVR are you going to activiate the firewire port and they said no only for the 3250.

thats their way around that regulation...
The wording of the regulation is somewhat unclear to me. It basically states that the cable operator shall replace the box with another one or upgrade the box, upon request of the customer. So what happens if the customer requests an upgrade but not a replacement? Is the cable operator required to upgrade the existing box (such as the 8300HD DVR), since the customer did not request a replacement?

It basically states that the cable operator shall replace the box with another one or upgrade the box, upon request of the customer. So what happens if the customer requests an upgrade but not a replacement? Is the cable operator required to upgrade the existing box (such as the 8300HD DVR), since the customer did not request a replacement?
The cable company decides if it's an upgrade or a replacement, not the customer... So replacing a 8300HD by a 3250 does work as far as the legislation is concerned...

The cable company decides if it's an upgrade or a replacement, not the customer... So replacing a 8300HD by a 3250 does work as far as the legislation is concerned...
Even so, it depends on when the cable company acquired the 8300HD from the supplier. If the cable company acquired it after 6/30/2005, and it does not have Firewire functionality, then the cable company is still violating the second part of the rule.

"(4) Cable operators shall: ... (ii) Effective July 1, 2005, include both a DVI or HDMI interface and an IEEE 1394 interface on all high definition set-top boxes acquired by a cable operator for distribution to customers."

I work for a Cable Company and we have noticed recently that some local broadcasters are inserting CCI data. Whether this is intentional or not we are trying to determine. Any Channel that is unencrypted should have no CCI value other than 0x00.

I just wanted to update my current situation. After contacting Comcast twice and receiving the same canned answer, "we don't support firewire ports, just hook it up with the coaxial cable," I filed complaints with the BBB and the FCC. I immediately received a phone call from someone at Comcast that has been helpful. I also emailed tech support at my local CBS affiliate and I received a response from them as well. The short story is that Comcast and CBS agree that the flag should be set to "copy freely." The snag is that each company is blaming the other and they tell me they are working on it. They don't know how it got set. Comcast yesterday informed me that they want to close the BBB complaint because it has been decided that the problem is with CBS, not Comcast. CBS emailed me this:

"The copy protection level needs to be changed at the cable head end.

That last sentence is the point of contention. Comcast and I are working together to find the real source of your problem. They have been very cooperative, but quite a bit of this stuff is new to us all, and can have a way of hiding deep within the firmware of software of our systems, so it can take a bit of sleuthing to dig out."

The CBS guy seems helpful as well, so maybe this will be worked out before the end of the NFL season... I would urge anyone else experiencing unfair 5C protection to do what I did. Give Comcast a chance and call them, but don't expect much. The BBB complaint was the only reason that I was allowed to deal with someone who would admit that they knew what a firewire port was.

Thanks for your help.
I've quoted both posts, since they are the same issue. It has to do with remnants of the "Broadcast Flag" (Redistribution Control or RC flag) being implemented in DTV station encoders and the Motorola STB's.

When it looked like the Broadcast Flag was going to be required back in 2005, vendors started implementing it in their software. For DTV stations, the Broadcast Flag (or more precisely, the rc_descriptor) needs to be placed in both the PMT (Program Map Table) and in the PSIP EIT (Event Information Table) of the ATSC bitstream.

The PMT is usually generated by the MPEG-2 encoder, and many many DTV stations (especially CBS) use the Harris Flexicoder MPEG-2 encoder. Harris provided an update to all of their DTV customers to include the rc_descriptor in the generated PMT. If you capture a Flexicoder bitstream anywhere in the US, it's very likely that an rc_descriptor will be present.

PSIP vendors were pretty slow to react, and I've never seen an rc_descriptor in an EIT.

Of course, the rc_descriptor is just some bits contained in the bitstream. To make them effective, a receiving device (in this case, the Motorola STB) has to look for the rc_descriptor and take some action to prevent redistribution. Since 1394 is the only way to redistribute content, the STB will encrypt the 1394 output to prevent copying and subsequent redistribution of content by PC's (connected to the internet).

However, as we all know, the Broadcast Flag was repealed. You can still buy a QAM capture card and record the local DTV signals (which are in the clear in the QAM bitstream) no problemo.

So who's to blame? Certainly not Comcast (or any cable company). They are just passing on the bits they receive from DTV stations (as they should). The QAM bitstream is in the clear, so they are following the FCC rules.

DTV stations are partly to blame, since they're still sending the rc_descriptor in their bitstream. However, since no receiving device should act on the rc_descriptor, then it shouldn't matter if it's sent or not.

The blame is squarely on Motorola for implementing (and enabling) this in their STB's. I can see that the software was probably developed back in 2005, but to enable the functionality seems to be unnecessary. It's either a mistake, or an experiment (to see if it works if and when the Broadcast Flag might be resurrected).

So what's the solution? There are three possible avenues.

1) Get the DTV stations (and FOX network feed) to delete the rc_descriptor from their bitstream.

2) Get Motorola to disable the rc_descriptor functionality in their STB's.

3) Get Comcast to strip the rc_descriptor out of the ATSC bitstream before it's re-modulated in the QAM bitstream.

Good luck trying to accomplish any of the above. My only suggestion is to alert the EFF (http://www.eff.org) that the Motorola STB's are actively honoring the Broadcast Flag and see if they can make a big stink about it.

Ron

I think it is very clearly Comcast problem. Comcast is the company selling me cable television signals and renting me the Motorola Cable box. Comcast is knowingly selling the end-user a faulty product. The rest is just semantics.

Well they closed my BBB complaint. This is what the Comcast rep wrote:

Date: 10/17/2007
Details: Ultimately the complaint is against WBZ (CBS Local Affiliate). Comcast has provided customer with contact information at Local Affiliate. I was informed that If you were watching WBZ via an over the air antenna, you would have the exact same problem.

I guess Comcast uses a new fangled OTA antenna that connects via firewire and is subject to 5C Protection... I can't believe I thought this guy knew what he was talking about for the past few weeks. This is Comcast's problem. They do not understand the technical issues and refuse to let you speak with the engineers who do understand them.

So on this clown's warped concept of a firewire connection, the BBB has opened a case in MY NAME against the local CBS affiliate. The same local affiliate that has been quite helpful and is sending me daily updates on the progress. I never had a complaint against WBZ, because they answered my emails intelligently from the beginning, unlike the Comcast Reps. I'm a little confused how a BBB complaint could be launched in my name, without my knowledge, against a company I never had a business transaction with. I imagine the engineers at WBZ will now be told to stop talking to me and I will be forced to go through a Customer Service Rep because of this. I'm about to give up on Cable TV and just buy some books. Arrg.

This is Comcast's problem.
Well, as dr1394 described, it is CBS' fault for adding the rc_descriptor when they should not. Comcast is just passing along the signal they receive... Sure, they could go the extra mile and strip that rc_descriptor, but it's probably more costly for them to do it than for CBS to fix their signal at the source...

thanks for the insight, I know what you guys are saying. I'm just not so quick to let Comcast off the hook. They are the service provider. I don't pay any money to WBZ.

Here is the rest of that email from the WBZ engineers that I quoted above:

"Here is an explanation from one of the CBS network HDTV honchos regarding the Broadcast Flag and the CCI data (drink a cup of coffee before reading; your eyes may drift shut otherwise):

When Broadcast Flag (aka. ATSC redistribution control descriptor, rc_descriptor) is present, the cable set top box, referred to as the “source device,” is to check with HDTV monitor / set/ recorder, the “sink device,” in order to determine if it is valid 5C copy protected device. If the sink device or recorder is a valid licensed 5C device, then the set top box SHOULD encrypt the audio/video and mark it as “unlimited copy,” since WBZ is a broadcast signal.

5C copy protection on Firewire (IEEE-1394) allows for 4 levels of copy protection:

unlimited copy
copy once
copy twice
never copy

Based on the viewer reports, it sounds like Comcast is encoding WBZ as “never copy” in the presence of Broadcast Flag, which is the incorrect protection level.

Even though the copy protection level is set to “unlimited copy,” the 5C link is still encrypted, which prevents the signal from being placed on the Internet, because the “time to live” on the Internet exceeds the 5C limits. This is exactly what we want. We do not want people to see your NFL game outside of the Boston market (unless they have paid for it on Sunday ticket), but we have no problem with the home recording the game via the Firewire port, provided it has been 5C encoded as “unlimited copy.”

The copy protection level needs to be changed at the cable head end.

That last sentence is the point of contention. Comcast and I are working together to find the real source of your problem. They have been very cooperative, but quite a bit of this stuff is new to us all, and can have a way of hiding deep within the firmware of software of our systems, so it can take a bit of sleuthing to dig out.

But we’re trying. I’ll get back to you with a progress report as soon as I have one.

Thanks for the information…"

That is way more coherent than any of the BS I've received from Comcast. Throughout the whole process with Comcast I never got the feeling they really understood the issue, They were just 'handling' my BBB complaint.

thanks for the insight, I know what you guys are saying. I'm just not so quick to let Comcast off the hook.
With that extra bit of information, indeed it is not so black and white...

From the explanation, it seems that if you used a 5C device (d-vhs or tv), that would indeed set the copy protection level to "unlimited copy", but since PC's are not valid device, you end up with a "never copy". OTOH, since CBS should not be using the Broadcast flag in the first place, you would be fine if CBS took it out on their end... ;)

Even though the copy protection level is set to “unlimited copy,” the 5C link is still encrypted ... This is exactly what we want.
Apparently WBZ wants the Firewire signal to be encrypted. So WBZ will most likely continue to send the rc_descriptor.

but since PC's are not valid device, you end up with a "never copy".
You effectively end up with "never use." You cannot even view it on a PC, much less copy it.

Apparently WBZ wants the Firewire signal to be encrypted. So WBZ will most likely continue to send the rc_descriptor.
I believe it's CBS corporate policy. They were (are) big proponents of the Broadcast Flag.

The silly part is that the device that's probably the least used to capture content is penalized. I'd have to think that more folks are using ATSC or QAM capture cards rather than Motorola STB's with 1394.

Ron

I have contacted Motorola about this problem and they have stated they have no intention of removing support for the Broadcast Flag.

Further, Motorola thinks that they have no responsibility to fix it either. Technically i think they are right as well, since there is no provision in the repeal that states the Broadcast flag cannot be interpreted. Also, it appears the May 6, 2005 Court of Appeals ruling states that the FCC can't even regulate Cable boxes.

It also seems like it is mostly inserted at the affiliate level. Some of our sites always have CBS HD with the rc flag, while some never have it.

It would appear to me that the best approach now is to maybe engage the FCC to put out an amendment to regulation 47 CFR 76.1904 to include the use of a Broadcast flag as well.

ok, I got the SCIAtl 3250HD and firewire works to DVHS on all the SD and 720P HD Signals. For some Reason 1080i signals are pixelly and audio dropouts, I am thinking that the JVC i'm using is busted garbage so I am going to try a different DVHS and see if I can record 1080i shows to tape.

Most of us can't get either 720p or 1080i to work without freezing up:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=593271

You MAY be able to dump a HD recording from SA8300HD to DVHS....

The only WORKING Firewire box I know is SA3250HD (I was using Passport & now Navigator).

I was able to get FirWire to work from a Motorola 6416 cable box. It sent a PRISTINE signal to my Mitubishi DLP, and also worked to record on my laptop. It isn't something I use, I just wanted to play with it. I wish I could find a receiver that would output over 1394.

What service provider do you have. I have no end of trouble with COMCAST eastern PA with their "ignorance" of the firewire port. FCC compliance? BS They provide a port that is undependable in content with their DVR functions. I am using it for the most benign device. Not a computer, no bit torrent, just a digital VHS deck from JVC that works well. Comments?

I had Insight, which is half-owned by Comcast or something. They don't support the Firewire port, but it worked fine. It just will NOT send any DVR or guide information. It is pure audio and video. That's all. That is a function in the box. IDK if any software changes would change that.

I have 2 Motorola DCH 6200's connected via firewire to MythTV, and they work near-flawlessly (occasionally channel-change to a movie channel takes 2 tries). I requested STB's with enabled fw ports when I ordered HD service from Mediacom (in NE NC), and even though the salesman or the guy that installed them didn't know what I was talking about, they worked without any further interaction with Mediacom.

Nothing appears to be 5c encrypted (I can watch/record all channels including premium) with the possible exception of the "Music Choice" channels which I'm unable to tune. This could be due to the fact that the data rate I'm getting from those channels is only 10% as fast as everything else, though. Not a big deal, since when I want to listen to music, I'll play an Internet stream.

I've been very pleased with Mediacom.

I've been recording over firewire to my JVC HDM5000 D-VHS since Jan. 2005, using one 6412, five 3412s, and one 3416. Every box I've used from Comcast has had firewire enabled. With the 3400 series, once I regain the handshake between the D-VHS and DVR by unplugging the DVR and plugging back in again, I can record multiple recordings and can fast-forward or rewind programs on the DVR and re-sync the audio and video for recording just by stopping the program and starting it again, which allows me to record multiple portions of shows easily. I can also watch D-VHS tapes without losing the hanshake. But the next day if I want to record further, I have to unplug the DVR again to regain the handshake. I usually bunch recordings to my D-VHS when I don't mind losing the guide info for a day.

When I had a 6412, I didn't have to unplug the DVR to regain the handshake -- I had to turn the power off to both the 6412 and D-VHS, and then turn the power on first for the 6412 and then the D-VHS, and every two months or so when that didn't work unplug and plug -- but it was easier to lose the handshake initially, as any playing of a tape would cause it to be lost, and any fast-forwarding or rewinding on the 6412 would lose it as well. still, I could always get a handshake and record. A firmware update in Nov. 2006 all but ruined the 6412, and I've only used 3400 series DVRs since.

The only WORKING Firewire box I know is SA3250HD (I was using Passport & now Navigator).

I spend 2 hours discussing the matter with TimeWarnerCable in Cincinnati since they disabled the Firewire ports on my SA3250HS stbs by upgrading from Passport to Navigator 2 weeks ago:

TWC says that I shouldn't had the Firewire port enabled to begin with.
TWC says that the FCC regulation is BS and that they don't have to comply to regulation 47 CFR 76.640.
Finally, I have a PVR MCE2005 setup that isn't capable of changing double digit channels when the two digits are the same (i.e. 77, etc.)
I can't use Firewire to at least change channel in a more reliable way anymore.

Thoughts?

Thoughts?

TWC = The Entertainment Industry (TEI).

TEI doesn't care about laws except to abuse them to sue Grandma for accidentally hearing a song or seeing a show somewhere that she didn't pay for (even though someone else already paid for it).

TEI only wants to rob you and tell you what to think.

TEI is gay and does many gay things like this.

TWC says that the FCC regulation is BS and that they don't have to comply to regulation 47 CFR 76.640.


They are correct on this one. When the FCC tried to force the Broadcast flag to be implemented on every Cable Box, it was determined that the FCC has NO authority over Cable Boxes at all.

They are correct on this one. When the FCC tried to force the Broadcast flag to be implemented on every Cable Box, it was determined that the FCC has NO authority over Cable Boxes at all.

LOL, you're right. The FCC has absolutely NO authority over the cable companies whatsoever because the cable companies don't communicate anything at all.

So what are we to do? Boycott the Entertainment Industry? LOL, let's shut down all of our prisons while we're at it...I don't have a problem with releasing thousands of murderers onto the streets, do you? As long as they're not murdering *ME*, right?

What's wrong with murder, anyway? You got a scientific explanation to back that up or just something written in a book of fairy-tales?

(See how easy this is?)

They are correct on this one. When the FCC tried to force the Broadcast flag to be implemented on every Cable Box, it was determined that the FCC has NO authority over Cable Boxes at all.No, they determined no such thing. For one thing, the court case was about consumer electronics in general, not (specifically) cable boxes - for instance, D-VHS VCRs, tuners for computers, etc. More importantly, the regulation that was struck down tried to forbid anyone from manufacturing and selling devices that didn't honor the broadcast flag, which was deemed beyond the FCC's authority. However, they've always had the authority to issue regulations for cable companies, and this decision doesn't change that. So, while they can't really forbid someone from making cable boxes that, say, don't support firewire, they do have the authority to forbid cable companies from using them (or as the firewire regulation actually says, from offering only such boxes).

One of the reasonings provided for rejecting the broadcast flag case was that(quoting the case) "Congress never conferred authority on the FCC to regulate consumers' use of television receiver apparatus after the completion of broadcast transmissions."

I don't argue that the cable companies are regulated, they of course are. It is the boxes themselves that are leased out i question the regulation of. I would include the boxes that the cable companies provide as part of the repeal, as the FCC was attempting to force these in specific to respect the broadcast flag.

One of the reasonings provided for rejecting the broadcast flag case was that(quoting the case) "Congress never conferred authority on the FCC to regulate consumers' use of television receiver apparatus after the completion of broadcast transmissions."Note that they refer specifically to "broadcast transmissions." The case was about the broadcast flag that was intended specifically for over-the-air transmissions (cable already had its own copy protection, 5C).

I would include the boxes that the cable companies provide as part of the repeal, as the FCC was attempting to force these in specific to respect the broadcast flag.Actually they weren't trying to force them in specific to respect the broadcast flag - it was to be any electronic device for receiving TV transmissions. Given the FCC's authority to regulate a wide variety of things about the cable industry, I'm certain you'd have to go to court to determine whether this ruling applies to cable boxes or not. (Your argument would be one side, the other would be that the FCC can regulate cable and that their authority over cable boxes comes from that). I agree that your argument could be seen as correct and you might win the case, but I do think it would require a new case - the existing ruling isn't specific enough with respect to cable boxes to make this a settled issue for them.

I guess i'm just speculating as to why a leased cable box is no longer required to have a 1394 functioning and why this is pretty much a dead thread as far as communicating issues to the FCC about it.

I guess the other question would be why the FCC would want the 1394 to be functional but then try to "remotely" disable it.

Anyway i know cable companies are buying settop devices that do not have 1394, disabling it by default if it does as well as television stations requiring that the 1394 is turned off to provide service.

I've been recording over firewire to my JVC HDM5000 D-VHS since Jan. 2005, using one 6412, five 3412s, and one 3416. Every box I've used from Comcast has had firewire enabled. With the 3400 series, once I regain the handshake between the D-VHS and DVR by unplugging the DVR and plugging back in again, I can record multiple recordings and can fast-forward or rewind programs on the DVR and re-sync the audio and video for recording just by stopping the program and starting it again, which allows me to record multiple portions of shows easily. I can also watch D-VHS tapes without losing the hanshake. But the next day if I want to record further, I have to unplug the DVR again to regain the handshake. I usually bunch recordings to my D-VHS when I don't mind losing the guide info for a day.

When I had a 6412, I didn't have to unplug the DVR to regain the handshake -- I had to turn the power off to both the 6412 and D-VHS, and then turn the power on first for the 6412 and then the D-VHS, and every two months or so when that didn't work unplug and plug -- but it was easier to lose the handshake initially, as any playing of a tape would cause it to be lost, and any fast-forwarding or rewinding on the 6412 would lose it as well. still, I could always get a handshake and record. A firmware update in Nov. 2006 all but ruined the 6412, and I've only used 3400 series DVRs since.
Your response describes a system very close to mine. Was a 6412 and now a 3416. JVC recorder is HM-DH5U. Whenever I got it working the recordings were fine. Lot's of opportunities for loss of control. TV is large screen Philips LCOS that has been superb on all inputs. I only use the Component output of the JVC to watch, in order to avoid HDMI complications. The issue that has been impossible to fix on this one or our other combo of a 6416 and a HMDH40000U, is lack of voice sync with the video. The voice is at least 1 sec late. Fine on screen but permanently out of sync on the recording. Hit or miss? Less than 10% of the time are we lucky. Now the 6416 won't record at all on the 40000. The HMD5 is in for repair now that it won't record/play or pass any signal thru. It shows the functions on the screen but no video or sound. Before that happened the firewire was the bad guy on sound. Is the voice sync over firewire a Motorola/COMCAST problem? Galileo001@aol.com

I guess i'm just speculating as to why a leased cable box is no longer required to have a 1394 functioning and why this is pretty much a dead thread as far as communicating issues to the FCC about it.It was never required that all cable boxes have 1394, only that the cable company give you a cable box with it if you ask for one. That requirement is still place, it's just that many cable companies are not following it (and the FCC apparently can't be bothered to enforce it).

I guess the other question would be why the FCC would want the 1394 to be functional but then try to "remotely" disable it.Are you referring to the broadcast flag? They wanted a way to let you record some things but not others. For cable, there has always been a way to to do this, which is the 5C copy protection mechanism. They can mark programs as "copy freely," "copy once," or "copy never." The broadcast flag was a way to extend this to broadcast TV.

Anyway i know cable companies are buying settop devices that do not have 1394, disabling it by default if it does as well as television stations requiring that the 1394 is turned off to provide service.The cable companies don't want to provide support for any problems with 1394, and since they're not required to give it to you unless you ask for it, the default setup is to not have it or to disable it.

I believe it's true that some channels (although not actually very many) do request copy protection, but legally only pay-per-view and video-on-demand channels can be protected with "copy never," meaning that 1394 can only be completely disabled for those. The most restrictive copy protection that other channels can apply is "copy once," meaning that you could record from those channels onto, for instance, a D-VHS recorder, but you could not then make a second-generation copy from the tape.

The bottom line is that very few people are using (or trying to use) 1394, so there aren't enough people complaining to get any attention either from the cable companies or from the FCC. It's rather sad because for a lot of people it means the end of the ability to record cable TV to removable media.

Full disclosure: I am too technologically-challenged to comprehend a great of this thread - though that hasn't stopped me from being engrossed in it. My recording objectives are fairly straightforward; there is an occasional show that I record to DVR and that I would like to archive while minimizing analogue transfers. When I discovered that my Motorola 3412 had two Firewire ports, I (naively) thought that I could simply connect to my mini dv cam to record and then archive the tape. Hasn't worked - either for material on the DVR - or when I try live on any channel. On the contrary, one port at least does no harm…the other causes the sound to disappear. The Comcast feedback was 1394 ports are enabled but not supported.

Unfortunately DV is different from the format used for digital TV. Because of this, even though both the cable box and mini DV camcorder both use firewire, they won't work together because they don't "speak the same language" over it, so to speak. :(

Thanks. I appreciate the info - even if it wasn't the result I was hoping for.

So, is my best (and only) archive plan B to go S video to the cam? (Heretofore, I've used composite connections to save to disc or to tape.)

If you have a computer with 1394, the channel is not copy protected, and you can get around the various problems described in this thread, then possibly you could record to the computer. (You could even then convert the recording to DV and copy it to tape if you wanted to.) But if you want an easy way to do it, that probably won't be such a good option.

The only easy way I can think of is what you suggested, record from s-video.

Everything was working fine until recently. I could transfer from Comcast DVR to JVC d-vhs. Now if I try to even watch the dvr recording with the JVC set to firewire input I get a black screen or the image will remain frozen. As soon as I change inputs on the JVC playback on DVR resumes. While black screen is on for DVR playback and I switch TV to JVC input I see the DVR recording playing back in HD but without any audio.I checked Comcast secret menu and it hasn't changed with regard to firewire as best as I can tell. I can still record live HD off of cable box and ON DEMAND. What I end up doing is going to my sister's house to offload HD off her Motorola box. Same box but different cable company. Only the usual handshake problems. Anyone have the same problem recently?

Hi have been using the Firewire form my Comcast HD box (non-DVR) for a long time. However, it looks like my box has now a hardware issue. Keeps restarting.
What is the latest model HD box (non-DVR) from Comcast that I want and has a working Firewire port?

I checked Comcast secret menu and it hasn't changed with regard to firewire as best as I can tell. How does one access the secret menu on the Scientific Atlanta boxes?

A friend of mine has Comcast cable with a Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8000 that contains two firewire jacks. This box is a 480I standard definition DVR box with two firewire jacks. When I tried to connect a D-VHS machine I soon discovered that both the firewire jacks on the cable box are disabled. I contacted Comcast customer service technician to see if they would enable the firewire ports so my friend could use it with a D-VHS. The Comcast rep informed me that they disable all firewire jacks on all of their cable boxes since they do not want people doing external recording. Comcast also offers a Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8000 with two E-SATA connections instead of two firewire jacks that allows one to connect external hard drives for recording when the internal hard drive is full. The Comcast Rep said that he believed the E-SATA jacks are disabled also on all their boxes. I informed the Comcast rep that Direct TV and Dish Network allow customers to connect external hard drives for recording (Of course Direct TV and Dish Network have no firewire jacks on the boxes).
I then asked the Comcast Rep if they offered a HDTV box for rental with a firewire jack enabled. The customer service rep informed me that they also disable the firewire jacks on all boxes including the HD boxes. I informed the rep that they suppose to offer a HD digital cable box with a firewire connection. Legally the law says cable companies are required to provide a HD box with an active firewire connection. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firewire
I know the D-VHS format is dead but possible maybe as late as 2009 BLU-RAY standalone recorders might be released in the USA that have firewire connections to record in 1080I quality from digital cable boxes. Once BLU-RAY standalone recorders are released the firewire jack will be more popular. Has anyone been able to get a working Comcast box with firewire? Reading the threads it sounds like most cable companies will only provide a non DVR HD box with a working firewire connection. I hope that the two way cable agreement will allow people to purchase their own equipment and the consumer will be able to buy a digital HD cable box with firewire. Of course if the cable companies can turn these firewire ports off and refuse to turn them on then the firewire ports are useless.
My friend has had Verizon FIOS in their area for over a year. I am trying to get my friend to switch to Verizon that offers better picture quality and more channel selection. Hopefully Verizon keeps the firewire ports enabled on their HD boxes. Anyone here have Verizon FIOS with a active firewire port?

Anyone here have Verizon FIOS with a active firewire port?

Yes, I record from my Verizon FIOS Motorola DVR to my JVC D-VHS almost every day.

The only glitch is that I must unplug the DVR and reboot before each recording. Otherwise the audio on the recordings will have lip-synch lag.

Yes, I record from my Verizon FIOS Motorola DVR to my JVC D-VHS almost every day.

The only glitch is that I must unplug the DVR and reboot before each recording. Otherwise the audio on the recordings will have lip-synch lag.

ever since I've had a Comcast Motorola DCH series DVR rather than the DCT series, I no longer have to unplug and reboot before each recording to my JVC D-VHS. the audio sync remains. if FIOS also has the DCH series, I'd suggest swapping.

I posted about this in the DCH thread in June, and the firmware upgrade since then has cured the lack of recording light problem on the DCH:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14119571#post14119571

My friend switched to Verizon and is using the Motorola 6416 HD DVR and 3 Motorola 6200 HD set top boxes. Both boxes have two active firewire connections. I was able to successfully record 1080I with no problems. In fact on the 6416 HD DVR I connected two D-VHS's and they were able to make two of the exact same recordings of a 1080I or 720P program at the same time using one cable box.
After several hours of testing the boxes and VCR's they did not need rebooted. The Verizon master broadcast picture quality is the best I have seen compared to satellite and cable. Only pre-recorded BLU-RAY discs looked better then Verizon FIOS.

When connecting two D-VHS's to one cable box, I-1 and I-2 show up in the indicator when changing channels on the VCR's. Since all three devices are connected this allows one to make two perfect bit for bit recordings at the same time from the cable box. It also allows the VCR's to do perfect bit for bit dubbing between two D-VHS machines even when the cable box is turned off. Now if one unplugs the power to the cable box the I-link connection is broken between the two VCR's. It is great to have two firewire connections on a cable box. I wish more cable boxes did.

Your post is the most encouraging. Where in the Verizon world are you? My situation is 2 6416's (one with multi-room feed to two 6200's) and three braindead stb's with one JVC HM-DH5U. The lip sync issue is annoying and not consistent. Sometimes it is perfect and sometimes it varies coming out of the 6416 (port independent) anywhere from barely but noticeable to 1.5 seconds.

Has anyone figured out how to enable more external HDD space via one of its ports?

Has anyone noticed that FiOS storage uses more disk space than Comcast HD on the same box. Instead of 1% per hour for reg programming and 4% /hour for HD, this box's software is now 50% bigger loading.

Sorry for all the questions.

Your post is the most encouraging. Where in the Verizon world are you? My situation is 2 6416's (one with multi-room feed to two 6200's) and three braindead stb's with one JVC HM-DH5U. The lip sync issue is annoying and not consistent. Sometimes it is perfect and sometimes it varies coming out of the 6416 (port independent) anywhere from barely but noticeable to 1.5 seconds.

Has anyone figured out how to enable more external HDD space via one of its ports?

Has anyone noticed that FiOS storage uses more disk space than Comcast HD on the same box. Instead of 1% per hour for reg programming and 4% /hour for HD, this box's software is now 50% bigger loading.

Sorry for all the questions.
Once and a while on some channels watching live video from the digital boxes I have seen lip sync issues. Sometimes the issue is with the channel. I have not noticed lip sync issues recording but to be honest my family members watch cable and make recordings where I watch almost 100% BLU-RAY prerecorded movie discs. I only use the Cable for Internet accept when I am hooking up the TV's and electronics for people. My other family members have 3 6200's and one 6416 box they are renting from Verizon. Each 6200 has one HM-DH5U D-VHS connected and the 6416 HD DVR has two HM-DT100U connected. The Motorola 7216 HD DVR boxes that Verizon will be rolling out in the future has a external eSATA port to connect a external hard drive when the internal hard drive is full. The USB ports are currently disabled on the 6200's and 6416 boxes. In the future when BLU-RAY standalone recorders arrive in the United States I will be replacing the D-VHS machines with BLU-RAY recorders. BLU-RAY recorders are suppose to have a IEEE-1394 interface and some of the models are also most likely going to have two way QAM tuners with support for two way cable cards with built in DVR. I am hoping for a 2009 or 2010 release of a BLU-RAY standalone recorder. Someday the D-VHS machines will break and will no longer be able to be repaired. Also quality name brand optical discs last longer then tape.

Here is a link to the boxes Verizon offers and a detailed user guide PDF

http://www22.verizon.com/ResidentialHelp/FiOSTV/General+Support/User+Guides/User+Guides.htm

One of the reasons why the Verizon boxes are most likely filling up the hard drive faster is because the HD and SD channels are bit for bit identical to the original broadcast. Verizon has the bandwidth with its 100% fiber to the side of the house to offer higher bit rate video and in the future higher bit rate audio. On another cable system that has less bandwidth there will be a lower bit rate for the channels. So it would make perfect sence that since Verizon has a higher bit rate for channels that more space will be used on the hard drive. Also diffrent models and brands of boxes have diffrent sizes for hard drive storage.

If your cable box has a dead FireWire/1394 port on it, there is an FCC web site you can use to complain. First of all, you need to see if your cable company will fix it. Call them a couple of times and tell them that they are in violation of the FCC mandate. Toss in words like "violation of FCC rulings covered in CS Docket 97-80" and "requirements specified in 47 C.F.R. 76.640(b)(4)" That will let the help desk know that you know what you are talking about. If they refuse, then ask to talk to a supervisor. If the supervisor does not give you any help, then go to this link on the FCC web site:
esupport dot fcc dot gov slash complaints dot htm
It is pretty easy to figure out. Select "Broadcast Cable and Satellite Issues". then "DTV Issues" then fill out the electronic form. If you use the same words in your complaint about "Docket 97-80" and "47 C.F.R. 76.640(b)(4)" then the FCC will know what you are talking about. You should include who your cable provider is, when you called them, how many times you called them, and what they said back to you.

This actually works. I got this from a guy who did it, got a letter back from the FCC in a few weeks and the next day he had a phone call from Comcast asking if "Tomorrow would be convenient". They fixed his FireWire port the next day.

Jeff

Problem using the Motorola 7100 series digital cable box with a D-VHS when on the Verizon FIOS network

Before I mention the problem I will go into some details about the old 6000 series Motorola boxes. My family members have several D-VHS machines and my family members rent several Motorola 6200 series HD boxes from Verizon including one Motorola 6416 HD DVR. The Motorola 6000 series has two IEEE-1394 firewire ports on the back. I can connect two D-VHS machines to one Motorola HD box or HD DVR box and the recordings are 100% perfect with no problems.

The problem with the Motorola 7100 series

Motorola no longer makes the 6000 series boxes and when one of the 6000 series boxes went bad, Verizon replaced it with a 7100 series box. The 7100 series only has one IEEE-1394 firewire port instead of two ports found on the 6000 series. When connecting a Motorola 7100 series HD cable box to a D-VHS using a IEEE-1394 interface the D-VHS receives the signal and everything appears to be perfect, but there is a problem as soon as the record button is pushed. It does not matter what channel one tries to record, as soon as the record button is pushed about every 5 to 10 seconds a picture and sound quality digital artifact is recorded on the tape. Its some type of digital artifact that makes the picture and sound quality distorted every 5 to 10 seconds. It makes the recording unusable since the audio and video every 5 to 10 seconds is interrupted. What is weird is that the 7100 series boxes firewire connection works fine when connected to the D-VHS, it is only when one tries to record something like NBC, PBS or any other channel that the recording can not be made without major artifacts every 5 to 10 seconds. Did Motorola or Verizon do this on purpose with the new 7100 series boxes when one tries to record from the IEEE-1394 interface or is this just a software glitch? There is already in place the 5C copy protection system that content providers can use when one wants to copy protect a program. I hope Verizon or Motorola would not purposely make the IEEE-1394 interface cause problems that would stop all programs from being recorded over the firewire interface. I might try and see if Verizon lets me have a old 6000 series box again since those work perfectly fine when recording onto a D-VHS (6000 series boxes are not made anymore). I could try another 7100 series box but I think all of the 7100 series boxes will do the same thing as soon as someone tries to record onto D-VHS.

If anyone has Verizon FIOS and a D-VHS you will need to get a 6000 series HD DVR or HD cable box if you want to record using the IEEE-1394 connection. The 7100 series inserts a glitch into the recording every 5 to 10 seconds over I-link. I wish a software update to the 7100 series would fix this problem but I get the feeling this was purposely designed copy protection system placed into the new 7100 series boxes that will not allow one to record anything including the local news.

Hopefully by at least 2012 we will see a few Blu-ray standalone recorders arrive in the United States. Those first machines should have a IEEE-1394 interface just like the discontinued D-VHS machines. Then maybe the firewire connection will become more popular and get more support.

Link for more details on the Verizon boxes
http://www22.verizon.com/ResidentialHelp/FiOSTV/General+Support/User+Guides/User+Guides.htm (http://www22.verizon.com/ResidentialHelp/FiOSTV/General+Support/User+Guides/User+Guides.htm)

I am a bit confused about your statements. On one had you say the 7xxx series boxes work fine with D-VHS decks, but on the other you say every 5-10 seconds there is a glitch.

Are you recording to DVHS tape on the DVHS machine and seeing these glitches, or are you using a PC with CapDVHS or Mac with the Firewire SDK seeing these glitches?

If it doesnt work with the DVHS machine and you are sure your DVHS tapes are good, then file a complaint with the FCC.

There 0 chance that firewire interfaces wiil become more popular, as (1) the content owners dont want firewire transports, and (2) Blu-ray recorders will not become popular anytime soon, and even if they do come to market, they will likely have integrated tuners and therefore no need for a firewire transport.

I am a bit confused about your statements. On one had you say the 7xxx series boxes work fine with D-VHS decks, but on the other you say every 5-10 seconds there is a glitch.

Are you recording to DVHS tape on the DVHS machine and seeing these glitches, or are you using a PC with CapDVHS or Mac with the Firewire SDK seeing these glitches?

If it doesnt work with the DVHS machine and you are sure your DVHS tapes are good, then file a complaint with the FCC.

There 0 chance that firewire interfaces wiil become more popular, as (1) the content owners dont want firewire transports, and (2) Blu-ray recorders will not become popular anytime soon, and even if they do come to market, they will likely have integrated tuners and therefore no need for a firewire transport.

I am sorry if my post was not clear enough. I tested two D-VHS machines with the exact same blank tape with several 6000 series boxes and all recordings worked fine. When I installed the 7100 series box the firewire connection works fine as long as you do not try and record the program. As soon as you hit record there is something in the data stream that messes with the D-VHS recording that makes it unusable since about every 5-10 seconds video and audio is lost. When I get more time I will see if Verizon will allow me to have another old 6000 series box that works fine for recording on D-VHS machines. 6000 series boxes also have 2 firewire jacks which allows two D-VHS machines to be connected at the same time.

Most likely Blu-ray standalone recorders will at the very minimum have a built in ATSC/QAM tuner and perhaps some will even have a cable card. A firewire connection or other digital conection would be ideal for dubbing home made family videos between Blu-ray recorders and camcorders.

I don't understand why you're surprised about this latest 1-port version of Motorola boxes for FIOS has a broken firewire interface?

Though I'm not familiar with the FIOS version of these boxes, it sounds like the new 7xxx series kind of corresponds to the new DCX family versions for cable, which also dropped from the previous 2-port working firewire interface to a 1-port broken firewire interface.

And yes, just like you're saying you have to revert back to the previous 2-port 6xxx series of the FIOS/Motorola boxes to get working firewire interface, we have the same exact "solution" on the cable side... requiring that you stick with the earlier 2-port DCH or DCT models of the Motorola boxes with their 100% working firewire interfaces.

There is a very long sub-discussion about the broken firewire interface on the 1-port DCX product in the thread devoted to that unit, describing symptoms EXACTLY AS YOU HAVE DESCRIBED FOR YOUR 7100 FIOS-VERSION OF THIS NEW 1-PORT MOTOROLA BOX. EXACT SAME SYMPTOMS... word for word, when trying to record from DVR to DVHS (or PC, for that matter).

It is completely obvious now that Motorola has totally broken firewire support (probably not intentionally, but definitely and absolutely) as an unintended consequence of downsizing from 2-ports to 1-port. Something else that should have probably been done in firmware, to support the 1-port instead of 2-ports, was either not done or was done incorrectly.

A complaint to the FCC is probably not the most effective way to get this resolved, though perhaps it might actually cause some action and pressure to be placed on Motorola (who did the breaking, after all) from the intermediary cable company or Verizon. I first contacted Motorola last November about this, and opened a "ticket", but so far four months have elapsed and aside from several phone calls there has been no real progress that I can tell.

Your report of an identical firewire breakage in the FIOS version of the latest Motorola 1-port DVRs now confirms that they really did do much more damage than they could have imagined. It's astonishing to me that this was not detected during QA testing of the entire set of new 1-port products.

You are not alone, in your frustration. And if Motorola simply chooses never to fix what they've obviously broken, we may all be SOL.

My solution: I have retained a DCH3416 for my primary HDTV equipment pod where I can still successfully archive perfectly from DVR to DVHS in my TWC/LA environment. I will never give this box back. Then, I have a DCX3400 at my second HDTV environment where I do not require DVHS archiving, but only want to benefit from "native" resolution and the double-sized hard drive.

[QUOTE=DSperber;18306641]

My solution: I have retained a DCH3416 for my primary HDTV equipment pod where I can still successfully archive perfectly from DVR to DVHS in my TWC/LA environment. I will never give this box back.

Until they pry it from your cold dead hands!

I don't understand why you're surprised about this latest 1-port version of Motorola boxes for FIOS has a broken firewire interface?

Though I'm not familiar with the FIOS version of these boxes, it sounds like the new 7xxx series kind of corresponds to the new DCX family versions for cable, which also dropped from the previous 2-port working firewire interface to a 1-port broken firewire interface.

And yes, just like you're saying you have to revert back to the previous 2-port 6xxx series of the FIOS/Motorola boxes to get working firewire interface, we have the same exact "solution" on the cable side... requiring that you stick with the earlier 2-port DCH or DCT models of the Motorola boxes with their 100% working firewire interfaces.

There is a very long sub-discussion about the broken firewire interface on the 1-port DCX product in the thread devoted to that unit, describing symptoms EXACTLY AS YOU HAVE DESCRIBED FOR YOUR 7100 FIOS-VERSION OF THIS NEW 1-PORT MOTOROLA BOX. EXACT SAME SYMPTOMS... word for word, when trying to record from DVR to DVHS (or PC, for that matter).

It is completely obvious now that Motorola has totally broken firewire support (probably not intentionally, but definitely and absolutely) as an unintended consequence of downsizing from 2-ports to 1-port. Something else that should have probably been done in firmware, to support the 1-port instead of 2-ports, was either not done or was done incorrectly.

A complaint to the FCC is probably not the most effective way to get this resolved, though perhaps it might actually cause some action and pressure to be placed on Motorola (who did the breaking, after all) from the intermediary cable company or Verizon. I first contacted Motorola last November about this, and opened a "ticket", but so far four months have elapsed and aside from several phone calls there has been no real progress that I can tell.

Your report of an identical firewire breakage in the FIOS version of the latest Motorola 1-port DVRs now confirms that they really did do much more damage than they could have imagined. It's astonishing to me that this was not detected during QA testing of the entire set of new 1-port products.

You are not alone, in your frustration. And if Motorola simply chooses never to fix what they've obviously broken, we may all be SOL.

My solution: I have retained a DCH3416 for my primary HDTV equipment pod where I can still successfully archive perfectly from DVR to DVHS in my TWC/LA environment. I will never give this box back. Then, I have a DCX3400 at my second HDTV environment where I do not require DVHS archiving, but only want to benefit from "native" resolution and the double-sized hard drive.

Update
I contacted Verizon regarding the Motorola 7100 IEEE-1394 interface issue. I was able to get them to send me another HD box. I requested the Motorola 6200 series but was told there is no guarantee that I would get a 6200 series and might get a 7100 instead (The 6XXX series are now all out of production and were replaced with the 7XXX series).

When UPS came this week I was happy to see that I had the 6200 series with the two working IEEE-1394 interfaces instead of a 7100 series box. Before I disconnected the 7100 series box I verified again that as soon as I hit record about every few seconds audio and video would drop out from digital artifacts (seems to have gotten worse, about every 2 seconds video and audio drops out). When I connected the 6200 series box I used the exact same blank tape and hit record and was able to make a perfect 1080I recordings from the 6200 series box with no problems at all. I now have all 6XXX series boxes for all locations and plan on never trading them in for newer boxes. Of course one day in a few years or several years Verizon will most likely switch to MPEG-4 and new boxes will be required to receive the latest programming.

Either the one port firewire 7XXX series Motorola boxes are broken or they were purposely made so one cannot record onto a D-VHS machine anymore

Theory number 1: The fact is that the 7100 series boxes have less input and output jacks and are a cheaper design when compared to the 6200 series. The 7100 series only has one IEEE-1394 interface instead of two. One theory is that Motorola may have accidently made these boxes so that the hardware and/or software will not allow recording onto a device like a D-VHS. This is some kind of accidental software or hardware glitch in theory.

Theory number 2: It is a fact that there is already a 5C copy protection system in place with D-VHS systems and program providers. If someone tries to record a ATSC program or IEEE-1394 signal that is marked as copy never the D-VHS machine will not allow the program to be copied and a message will pop up on the screen that says "REC PROHIBITED" or some other type of message. This 5C copy protection system is in place so that content providers can copy protect programs that they do not want to be copied. Perhaps the 7XXX series boxes are working as designed and they decided to add a new copy protection system so no channels at all can be recorded including 480I channels like the local news. Technically if one plugs a 7100 series box into a very old HDTV that has a IEEE-1394 interface the video and audio will work perfectly. Also if one connects the 7100 series boxes up directly to a D-VHS machine then as long as one does not hit the record button the audio and video over firewire works perfectly fine with a D-VHS. It's just when that record button is pushed on a D-VHS that the 7100 series data stream causes the recording to have all kinds of video and audio artifacts every 2 seconds that makes the recording useless. One cannot even record the local news in 480I or 1080I quality onto D-VHS. Maybe Motorola made the 7100 series boxes to purposely insert digital audio and video artifacts into the firewire data stream when a device tries to record the signal. If one can only watch TV programs from the firewire ports and not record from the firewire ports then this would create more demand for some consumers to rent a HD DVR or additional HD DVR's.
I am starting to believe in theory number two. I think the new Digital Cable boxes in the future will not allow consumers to record onto a D-VHS or future BLU-RAY recorder when connected to a IEEE-1394 interface.


The latest software update from Verizon was a software downgrade. We rent 1 HD DVR from Verizon and 3 HD boxes from Verizon. It use to be that one could watch up to 3 HD programs at once streaming from the Verizon HD DVR to other rooms. Then it was reduced to up to two HD programs could be watched from the HD DVR to other locations in the house. The latest Verizon update limits only one HD program at a time to be viewed remotely too another room. What good is a whole house family HD DVR if one can only watch one HD program at a time. Now one needs to rent a HD DVR for every room again. Plus the Verizon HD DVR only holds 20 hours of HD programs for the whole house.

Update on this whole topic.

Although I am a TWC/LA customer, using Motorola's latest DCX3400 (cousin to their 7100 model for FIOS), I and many other AVS Forum members have reported experiencing the exact same firewire-recording failures as you've so accurately described on the 7100 for FIOS. I mentioned this in my earlier reply.

However I have gotten the ear (and attention) of the Director of Video Platforms at TWC/LA, and he's accepted my offer to come to his office with my JVC 40K and DT100 VCRs to demonstrate the "firewire failure" to him and and an engineer who works for him, using a DCX3400 in his office. I'm going there this Monday, having requested that they also have available an older DCH3416 and/or DCT6416 so that I can demonstrate "firewire success" using these older model DVRs.

In turn, they have an onsite visit from Motorola engineers planned for later in the week for other reasons, but this whole topic of the firewire issue will be brought up. Hopefully they will be able to repeat my demonstration of the firewire anomalies to Motorola that I will hopefully be able to demonstrate to TWC on Monday.

Anyway, as part of the preparation for Monday's visit to TWC, I was sent some screenshots that Motorola sent to TWC ostensibly "proving" that firewire recording from DCX3400 to DVHS (a 40K, in Motorola's lab) actually WORKS!

Well, it turns out that their screenshots of "success" were just for 480i SD recording (at STD speed of 14.1Mbps). They did not also provide "HD proof" with screenshots of a similarly successful 720p/1080i HD experiment (at HS speed of 28.2Mbps). Now I don't know if Motorola actually has performed those HS experiments as well and just neglected to send them, or if they actually have never performed HD tests but simply thought their SD "success" proved that nothing was broken.

Anyway, I've asked TWC to request Motorola to perform a similar experiment as before but this time using HD 720p/1080i content... and then report as to success or failure.

And here, in this forum (as well as over on the dedicated DCX3400 thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=18526587&postcount=1717) where this issue has been discussed for many months), I've asked anybody (such as yourself) who's previously observed problems recording via firewire from either the DCX3400 for TWC/Comcast or the 7100 for FIOS, to try and replicate the Motorola results... of SUCCESS recording SD 480i content via firewire. You will either also have success, or you will have failure... and I'd like to know which it is.

Of course if you no longer have a 7100 (i.e. you've returned it for an older 6200 so that you can have your firewire recording back) then you can't really help. But hopefully if there are other FIOS 7100 users out there who can contribute to this 480i firewire experiment, I'd appreciate it.

If your 480i recording results are a success, but your 720p/1080i results are still failure, that's very significant information that Motorola needs to know about.

But if your 480i recording results are still a failure, as are your 720p/1080i results, then Motorola needs to review their experimental lab testbed environment to explain why their results lab differ from our results "in the wild" for the identical experiment.

Of course if Motorola's 720p/1080i test fails, and your 480i test works, then that's the ultimate "good news" for all of us. They've finally been shown that there is a failure, and also with a "giant clue" that it's somehow SD vs. HD bitrate related on the DCX3400/7100 models, and probably not related to the 2-port vs. 1-port dropdown.

Please... try the 480i firewire recording experiment on DCX3400 and 7100 FIOS boxes, and report results here.

Thanks.

Please... try the 480i firewire recording experiment on DCX3400 and 7100 FIOS boxes, and report results here.

Thanks.

I have the QIP7100 w/FIOS. I tried recording at 480i and 1080i and I would get "glitching" roughly every 10 seconds. It's very annoying! :mad:

Of course if Motorola's 720p/1080i test fails, and your 480i test works, then that's the ultimate "good news" for all of us. They've finally been shown that there is a failure, and also with a "giant clue" that it's somehow SD vs. HD bitrate related on the DCX3400/7100 models, and probably not related to the 2-port vs. 1-port dropdown.

Please... try the 480i firewire recording experiment on DCX3400 and 7100 FIOS boxes, and report results here.

Thanks.

Thanks to discovering this thread so I didn't have to move my D-VHS decks to yet another HD STB or run more of the D_VHS head cleaning cycles on a second D-VHS

Reporting back that on my latest installation (Motorola 7100) it glitches whether recording 480i off the STB or 1080i off the multiroom DVR into this box. So it does not appear bit rate related on the Verizon equipment.

I was going to try connecting directly to the DVR (I have tried both remote HD boxes) but from above discussion it is apparent that would also be a waste of time.

I suppose I should also call Verizon and at least complain.

In the meantime I will reconnect my JVC 40K to my SONY KD 955 XS with cable card; at least I will once again be able to record premium content but looks like I will have to be physically present when it starts.

Now my plan to archive the Pacific looks flawed as I can't get the series off the DVR and it is taking up a lot of room.

Maybe I will just have to watch it.

does the multi room dvr feature work with any other STBs besides the 7100?

______________

not that I expect anything will come of it but I did contact Verizon and filed a complaint with the FCC