I stopped at the Arrowhead Circuit City tonight. They had a big display for Blu-ray next to a tv playing a standard dvd player. Then the actual blu-ray player was off in a corner playing a standard dvd. Oh yeah, this makes sense.

I asked two salesguys where the HD-dvd was. They told me they weren't going to stock it for at least three months. That is just bizarre.

Now, this is just silly and it's pure rumor-mongering but this is what they said - they heard Sony was pulling blu-ray out of the PS3. Nuts. Would be pretty interesting if true. Maybe Sony realizes they can't get it together by fall and would be better off with an actual PS3 that can be sold for $399. Maybe I'm a chinese jet pilot. Who knows. Interesting rumor, anyway.

-M

Seriously, come on. CC employees having industry insights?

Don't you think we would have heard if Sony was even rumored to have pulled the BD out of the PS3?

A CC twit who has worked in the same store for eight years still has to ask directions to the restroom. I doubt they know zip about PS3.

Hence the 'chinese jet pilot' comment.

10 points to the first person to correctly identify the movie that is from.

-M

Don't you think we would have heard if Sony was even rumored to have pulled the BD out of the PS3?

Army of Darkness. What do I do with 10 points, though?

You could apply it toward a purchase of a BD-free PS3.

Impressive, indeed you are powerful as the Emperor has foreseen.

To answer your question, if you get 1000 points you get 1% off a blu-ray version of 'The Fifth Element'.

You still have to wonder what's going on with Sony. It's hard to put a happy face on a) CES disaster, and b) blu-ray launch disaster.

-M

Army of Darkness. What do I do with 10 points, though?

A CC twit who has worked in the same store for eight years still has to ask directions to the restroom. I doubt they know zip about PS3.

U are a big shot working for big corp . SO WHAT !!! ... i find the post offensive !

U are a big shot working for big corp . SO WHAT !!! ... i find the post offensive !

No I don't work for any corporation. Sorry but I don't care too much for CC and it has nothing to do with dvix. :)

CC does not or have ever carried HD DVD players- as far as the So Cal region.

... i find the post offensive !But more true than not.

The point is this: Historically, big chain employees (in North America) usually know very little about the products they sell. Very little.

Maybe not in stores but they do sell the RCA HD DVD online.
http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/RCA-HD-DVD-Player-with-HDMI/sem/rpsm/oid/149876/catOid/-12873/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

CC does not or have ever carried HD DVD players- as far as the So Cal region.


They do online.. so maybe the OP has a point and they will start carrying in store in 3 months...

OTOH... 3 posts and all in this thread????

Circuit City RCA HD-DVD Page (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/RCA-HD-DVD-Player-with-HDMI/sem/rpsm/oid/149876/catOid/-12872/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do)

CC does not or have ever carried HD DVD players- as far as the So Cal region.

Last time I was in CC in Reno about two weeks ago they had no HD DVD players not even the RCA. They did have a few HD DVD movies mixed in with the DVD selections. The time before that one of the CC sales guys told me HD DVD had been delayed until 2007. At BB today and watched a bit of the BD demo. Chicken Little looked the best (all the others looked a bit soft) so while it's fresh in my mind I'm going to put that std DVD movie on my Tosh and see how it compares upscaled to th BD image.

Anyone know if R.C. Willey has HD DVD players or movies?

Now, this is just silly and it's pure rumor-mongering but this is what they said - they heard Sony was pulling blu-ray out of the PS3. Nuts. Would be pretty interesting if true. Maybe Sony realizes they can't get it together by fall and would be better off with an actual PS3 that can be sold for $399. Maybe I'm a chinese jet pilot. Who knows. Interesting rumor, anyway.

-M

$399? You mean $599.

If they pull BD, they could charge $399.

A CC twit who has worked in the same store for eight years still has to ask directions to the restroom.
Thanks Robert. I laughed so hard I almost tore my sac! :)

I stopped at the Arrowhead Circuit City tonight. They had a big display for Blu-ray next to a tv playing a standard dvd player. Then the actual blu-ray player was off in a corner playing a standard dvd. Oh yeah, this makes sense.

I asked two salesguys where the HD-dvd was. They told me they weren't going to stock it for at least three months. That is just bizarre.

Now, this is just silly and it's pure rumor-mongering but this is what they said - they heard Sony was pulling blu-ray out of the PS3. Nuts. Would be pretty interesting if true. Maybe Sony realizes they can't get it together by fall and would be better off with an actual PS3 that can be sold for $399. Maybe I'm a chinese jet pilot. Who knows. Interesting rumor, anyway.

-M

I thought Sony was forcing all game developers to put their games on BD so it has to have the BD drive.

Impressive, indeed you are powerful as the Emperor has foreseen.



Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi. Do I get points too?

Seriously, come on. CC employees having industry insights?


Tell me about it, a CC employee directed me to this video on google and said it would blow my mind about the war!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3858617066028236099

WTF is that crap!

My Circuit City in NE Wisconsin has never carried HD-DVD at all and they claim they don't know if they ever will. They have a huge Blu-Ray display though.

Threads merged!

http://psinext.e-mpire.com/index.php?categoryid=20&m_articles_articleid=546

http://www.gamesradar.com/gb/ps3/game/news/article.jsp?articleId=20060614143623343060&sectionId=1006

Dev Kits, aka, not real Ps3s. :o

http://www.gamesradar.com/gb/ps3/game/news/article.jsp?articleId=20060614143623343060&sectionId=1006

Dev Kits, aka, not real Ps3s. :oJeez, that's old news which they've denied this lots of times, and that has absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic.

Why do you even post to this thread if you're going to post misinformation?

http://www.gamesradar.com/gb/ps3/game/news/article.jsp?articleId=20060614143623343060&sectionId=1006

Dev Kits, aka, not real Ps3s. :o

I dont understand what your trying to do here, either your just trying to make a fuss, generate ******** and cause trouble. Or your really just not reading what i post?

Cords used were a power cord attached to an external strip (no power brick that I could see), a cord running to a high-end Sony receiver unit, and a usb cord running to the attached PS3 controller.

This is from the link i posted, do you think that they somehow really "cheated" on that?

The guy from PSI NEXT, even posted a video where he followed each and every cord from the PS3 to the controller, and Screen. And just fyi, a dev kit with the same cpu and gpu is essentially the same machine as the PS3 you see in the pictures. This story got started by the inquirer that posted a random picture from a Dev kit at E3 and claimed "that will never fit in a PS3 casing". I guess to many people are just believing every lie there is as long as it fits with their opinion.

If I can nudge the thread a bit back OT, I'm curious if any solid specs or insights into the blu-ray drive that will be used in the PS3 have emerged, and how the particular components differ from the set-top player Sony will release soon? No doubt the $1K standalone player will be superior in build quality and have some nice signal processing circuitry and such, but how different will the drive itself be, and how significantly different in PQ will the video output be...?

As for all the moaning about the PS3s price--I think it comes from folks who are insistent on looking at it as simply a game machine. And those who think $1K is just OUTRAGEOUS for a first-gen Blu-Ray player must be 15 years old or at the least were incognizant/out-of-the-loop when DVD launched in '97...that's what the first-gen DVD players cost, in '97 dollars (that'd be what in today's dollars, I wonder--$1300+?). It was several months later when Sony's $500 standalone player made its way to market (an S300, which I myself bought in the Fall of '08 and used until last Summer)--so, about an 8-mo delay before a solid and less expensive alternative was available. Some positing that a $300 Blu-Ray player will emerge on the heels of the PS3 are way off the mark. The Blu-Ray/HD-DVD ramp up will take a year at least to drop production costs enough to usher in a truly cheaper next gen series of product--THEY'RE ALL LOSING MONEY ON THE HARDWARE PRICED AS THEY ARE, FOLKS! I mean, are you familiar with Plasma HD sets and HDMI-equipped A/V receivers? These are still expensive and they're using technology years old...

The XBox 360 was built around existing, cheaper technology. Very solid, but essentially the HD-DVD add-on is just that, a window-dressing for an old-gen rather than truly next-gen box (the PowerPC main procs custom support sets notwithstanding). It does nothing a good Windows laptop can't do w/ Media Center 2005, as far as I can tell...they just bundle it at a loss because the vid game business model is to make the bank on the software and licensing.

Sony's gambit is to lauch the Blu-Ray format as the substrate/platform for a whole range of home entertainment products--initially at a rather large loss on the hardware (as is typical in the biz, see above). The PS3 is their trojan horse, a computer/player labelled a 'game machine' that has WiFi and broadband capabilities for content deliverables in HD to complement/augment the Blu-Ray format as the hub for HD entertainment of many types. So, if you think of the PS3 as a HTPC w/ extreme interactive features rather than a super-GameBoy then the price-point is obviously low-balling, not doomingly sky high as the clueless like to portend. This isn't PR spin--its a read on the features and intentions of the device. You want a game machine only--buy a Wii (I might, that controller looks fantastic). You want a bevy of HD entertainment...save up and get a PS3.

Anyways, back to my question--what do we know about the PS3s Blu-Ray drive and how it compares to the standalone?

"The PS3 is their trojan horse, a computer/player labelled a 'game machine' "

if you've been following what the Sony exec's have been saying.. "game machine" isn't what they've been using to describe the PS3. Hasn't been that way for quite some time if ever in terms of the PS3. Though for the average consumer I still think it will be seen as a game machine and I'm sure they know that.

"Kutaragi pointedly commented of the next-gen console, which is due to launch this November at dual price points of $499 and $599 in North America: "We don't say it's a game console (*laugh*) - PlayStation 3 is clearly a computer, unlike the PlayStations [released] so far."

He went on to outline a scenario where many parts of the PS3 were upgradable, much more like a PC, noting: "Since PS3 is a computer, there are no "models" but "configurations"", and continuing (though talking in the theoretical): "I think it's okay to release a [extended PS3] configuration every year". It's clear from the comments that Sony is indicating that it will be possible to upgrade hard drives and perhaps even other components easily.
"
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=9642

""SCE president says his company is aiming for iPod-like iconic status for its next-gen console and will focus on hardware and PC-like functionality."

"He also expressed Sony's wish to make "PlayStation" a byword for "entertainment computer."
"

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6152519.html

I have mix feelings about that PS3 Blu Ray. Someone made a comment that I agree with. They said that the PS3 has the cell processor inside that development spent years on just for that reason. The current HD-DVD/Blu Ray players don't have the processor inside so we believe that the PQ would be much better. Especially when Blu Ray is on dual layered discs (Probably in Nov.). HD-DVD is already using dual-layer. But some will say that why would Sony do that to the same people that are supporting their Blu-Ray format my introducing a player that uncuts the price and is much better interms of PQ. It confuses me. I'm gonna buy it one way or another. :D

If I can nudge the thread a bit back OT, I'm curious if any solid specs or insights into the blu-ray drive that will be used in the PS3 have emerged, and how the particular components differ from the set-top player Sony will release soon? No doubt the $1K standalone player will be superior in build quality and have some nice signal processing circuitry and such, but how different will the drive itself be, and how significantly different in PQ will the video output be...?
Depends on how good the PS3 software video decoder is. Since it won't have a hardware chip to do VC1 or MPEG4/AVC, it will have to do it in software, and depending on how much work went into the decoder, it could be really good, or spectacularly awful. The drive itself is essentially irrelevant, as long as it's at least 2x, which it will be.


The XBox 360 was built around existing, cheaper technology. Very solid, but essentially the HD-DVD add-on is just that, a window-dressing for an old-gen rather than truly next-gen box (the PowerPC main procs custom support sets notwithstanding). It does nothing a good Windows laptop can't do w/ Media Center 2005, as far as I can tell...they just bundle it at a loss because the vid game business model is to make the bank on the software and licensing.
Well, i'd be careful about saying things about "existing" technology. When you get right down to it, the 360 GPU is _still_ ahead of what ATI has released to date. The CPU is a lot more powerful than a mobile processor. The laptops released to date that play HDDVD's do an awful job, dropping frames and slow performance. It has also not been proved that the PS3 will have any better real world performance. All the games we've seen so far have looked pretty much on a par.

"The PS3 is their trojan horse, a computer/player labelled a 'game machine' "

if you've been following what the Sony exec's have been saying.. "game machine" isn't what they've been using to describe the PS3. Hasn't been that way for quite some time if ever in terms of the PS3. Though for the average consumer I still think it will be seen as a game machine and I'm sure they know that.

"Kutaragi pointedly commented of the next-gen console, which is due to launch this November at dual price points of $499 and $599 in North America: "We don't say it's a game console (*laugh*) - PlayStation 3 is clearly a computer, unlike the PlayStations [released] so far."

It's amazing the lengths a company will go to to get it's games machine classified as a computer (http://www.out-law.com/page-7014) even though it appears it no longer needs to.

It's amazing the lengths a company will go to to get it's games machine classified as a computer (http://www.out-law.com/page-7014) even though it appears it no longer needs to.

yup, they tried for quite a long time with the PS2. The PS3 is a whole new ballgame and will be able to quite a bit more tasks than the PS2 from what Sony has said. Of course like I said I still think the general public will view it strictly as a gaming machine.

Depends on how good the PS3 software video decoder is. Since it won't have a hardware chip to do VC1 or MPEG4/AVC, it will have to do it in software, and depending on how much work went into the decoder, it could be really good, or spectacularly awful. The drive itself is essentially irrelevant, as long as it's at least 2x, which it will be.

I'm with you, but I guess I was asking whether we knew what sorts of auxilary processing was built into the PS3. I'd be surprised if it didn't have any decoding chipsets (at least, for MPEG4), actually. If it is all software, its a big hmmm roll of the dice as you say... Why do you state flatly there will be no hardware based decoding in the PS3? I mean, they have inexpensive custom chipsets in iPods for music decoding/playback, right--I assumed the Cell processors would handle CGI/3D graphics, not video playback, and it would be off-loaded to some auxilary chips...am I crazy?

To cut costs they might cut more than you would think. It might have some creative classifications, but first and foremost it is a gaming rig and has to prduce it's best results filling that roll. Everything else is secondary, including BD playback.

I look at the PS3 as a way to jam BD down our throats, even if we really don't want it. For two generations the name Play Station was synonomous with "affordable gaming." This time around the average household will not be able to afford it for quite some time. I'm not talking about most of us at this forum that can afford it. I know some people who waited a couple years to buy a PS2 because they thought it was too expensive at first.

Price is always relative. If you really love gaming and Sony, $600+ isn't that hard to swallow. It's easy to justify something if you really want it. But if you are a casual gamer and a casual movie watcher, then that price tag looks a lot bigger. The same goes for the current BD player(s). $1000 is difficult for me to swallow for very limited and from what I have seen, sub-par performance.

I took a step back last year and took a look at how I might like to spend my hard earned cash as we were looking forward to some great products coming out this year. I drew a line in the sand and asked myself, "what am I looking to get out all this?" I realized that the 360 had accomplished exactly what I was looking for and at a price I (and my wife...don't forget that;)) could live with.

As for a new HD optical format, I am waiting. I am not yet compelled by either camp. So far BD is lacking in software quality and size and the Toshiba seems a bit too "prototype" for me. I do hand it to Toshiba for perfomance, but again, I can wait.

I will not, however, allow Sony to muscle it's way into my home theater by making me pay a premium price for BD player in a console that would be half the price without it. That should be my choice and I choose to not buy a PS for the first time since 1995. It is a console...leave the home theater to quality, dedicated components...not a jack of all trades.

I hear your arguments, but the days of one box doing one thing (however well) are almost gone. From cell phones w/ PDA/camera/MP3 features to combo cable/sat-dvr receivers to the aforementioned "game systems", folks are expecting more functionality out of each hardware investment they make. Hell, even in the bastions of pure home theater, devices like DVDO's VP30 are enticing because they are not just scalers, not just deinterlacers, but HDMI/etc switchers as well. I think folks looking at the PS3 simply as a $600 'game system' miss it's true nature/point entirely...thus my post above. It's actually an attempt at several devices merged into one for multi-function in your home entertainment setup...and the 'bang for the buck' of that $600 versus paying for each component seperately is where a real assessment of the PS3s "value" need take place.

I understand your concerns and opinions, however (I'm truly not acting as an apologist for Sony, I just feel the pundits/public may be misunderstanding their product positioning)--in short, just wanted to clarify where I'm coming from here.

I hear your arguments, but the days of one box doing one thing (however well) are almost gone. From cell phones w/ PDA/camera/MP3 features to combo cable/sat-dvr receivers to the aforementioned "game systems", folks are expecting more functionality out of each hardware investment they make.

Combining functionality is nothing new - industrial design is litterred with such examples - just see all the functionality that clocks had along with showing time.

While I like my cell phone to have a camera, I won't be using it as my primary camera on a vacation.

So, the question is what kind of functionalities go well as a group. Sat / cable receiver with DVR is an obvious good combination.

I'm with you, but I guess I was asking whether we knew what sorts of auxilary processing was built into the PS3. I'd be surprised if it didn't have any decoding chipsets (at least, for MPEG4), actually. If it is all software, its a big hmmm roll of the dice as you say... Why do you state flatly there will be no hardware based decoding in the PS3? I mean, they have inexpensive custom chipsets in iPods for music decoding/playback, right--I assumed the Cell processors would handle CGI/3D graphics, not video playback, and it would be off-loaded to some auxilary chips...am I crazy?


It doesn't need it. If its doing video decoding its not doing games, so it can use the CELL to do that. And its plenty powerful enough - they were demoing it a year or so back doing software decoding of MPEG2 HD streams, and I think it was doing 12 streams simultaneously.

Its possible some of the decoding may be handed off to the GPU as well - dont' forget it has an Nvidia chip in, so possibly they are working with them on that.

But power isn't the issue - its how good the software is. And both MS and Sony's track record of software DVD players are very poor.

Points well taken--I've suffered through software players on the PS2 and on both Mac and PC platforms. Beyond the player itself, would there be need of chipsets for adaptive deinterlacing and other video processing, I wonder, or is this less pertinent w/ the source material on a blu-ray disc? I mean, the video on a DVD is progressive, but the 3:2 of film-based material and need for interlace conversion demanded good image processing algorithms that seem to call for hardware-based solutions...or REALLY fast procs w/ software based ones (for example: Algolith has a software solution that is the same as their Dragonfly component/processor, but it involves long renders as an After Effects plug-in, even on the latest computer hardware).

Perhaps the Cell/nVidia combo can handle the processing speeds needed--I'm wondering about how well the video gets treated overall, and how differently between the dedicated set-top and the PS3. You might be able to make arguments that the custom hardware as in the PS3 might be more advanced than that which is in these first-gen set-top players, and the fact that these set-top players have been reviewed as more mini-computers (linux or windows-based) than traditional A/V components anyways, might bode well for the PS3's Blu-Ray performance. I'd love to see the specs on both, though...

IMO, the potential of the PS3 hardware is such that it should be able to produce as good results as the best standalone player.

But I doubt it'll reach that potential because of software limitations. It all depends how good the engineers are, and how high up the priority list Sony have the player quality. i.e. will 'good enough' be enough for them?


One limiting factor may be that the PS3 might not have analogue audio out, so you may need to invest in a HDMI receiver to get the full benefit of the sound.

It'll have toslink, though, so you're good for what most folks will be using...you'd need to have a spanking new receiver for the new Dolby/DTS 7+ channel surrounds that are part of the HD/Blu-Ray specs anyways, right? HDMI 1.3, notwithstanding.

It'll have toslink, though, so you're good for what most folks will be using...you'd need to have a spanking new receiver for the new Dolby/DTS 7+ channel surrounds that are part of the HD/Blu-Ray specs anyways, right? HDMI 1.3, notwithstanding.

PS3 will have HDMI 1.3. What exactly can HDMI 1.3 pass? I know deeper coloer, 1080p etc.. but what on the audio side, anything else important?

HDMI 1.3 allows the raw audio bitstreams of ALL new audio formats to travel to an outboard surround decoder with DTS-HD, Dolby TrueHD, and Dolby Digital Plus built in.

Most players do not have all of these formats onboard to output them as PCM. You'll need a new receiver or pre-amp and HDMI 1.3 to do the trick.

Dan

HDMI 1.3 allows the raw audio bitstreams of ALL new audio formats to travel to an outboard surround decoder with DTS-HD, Dolby TrueHD, and Dolby Digital Plus built in.

Most players do not have all of these formats onboard to output them as PCM. You'll need a new receiver or pre-amp and HDMI 1.3 to do the trick.

Dan

cool, thanks for the info :) I really wasn't sure if analog was needed or not.. Good to hear it isn't. I sold my Yamaha 6.1 component HD passing receiver and I'm hold for now for a new one so I'll keep an eye out for HDMI 1.3 compatibility. I've still got a decent Denon to use in the mean time so I'm in no rush.

HDMI 1.3 allows the raw audio bitstreams of ALL new audio formats to travel to an outboard surround decoder with DTS-HD, Dolby TrueHD, and Dolby Digital Plus built in.
Dan
I really want to have it confirmed that the PS3 will actually pass ALL the new formats through the HDMI 1.3 port... Is it just a question of lifting it off the disc and passing it on, no matter what format, or do you need some sort of processing?

I thought on Blu Ray players the were supposed to process the signal and pass it so that it would be backwards compatible with other versions of HDMI? Its getting crazy the knowledge you need to know to get a TV, PS3 and a receiver all doing what they are advertised to do.

Its like we have this great new audio format but nobody can actually use it nor are we telling people what you need to play it at its full potential.

That is why all this may fail, forget the cost, its just too complicated for most.

It'll have toslink, though, so you're good for what most folks will be using...you'd need to have a spanking new receiver for the new Dolby/DTS 7+ channel surrounds that are part of the HD/Blu-Ray specs anyways, right? HDMI 1.3, notwithstanding.


sure, but then I won't get dolby trueHD decoding. I thought the player decodes, and then outputs the analog sound over 5.1/6.1 phonos? If PS3 doesn't have that, then we're left with it recoding that into DTS/DD5.1 which won't sound as good.

I'm sure it'll be fine for my average speakers, but its still something to keep an eye on.

The XBox 360 was built around existing, cheaper technology. Very solid, but essentially the HD-DVD add-on is just that, a window-dressing for an old-gen rather than truly next-gen box (the PowerPC main procs custom support sets notwithstanding). It does nothing a good Windows laptop can't do w/ Media Center 2005, as far as I can tell...they just bundle it at a loss because the vid game business model is to make the bank on the software and licensing.



If Microsoft hadn´t been so desperate in getting the 360 to market before the PS3 they would have included a HD-DVD drive. With a DVD they are actually putting a limit on the developers. What right now seems like a major hurdle for the PS3 with it´s Blu-Ray drive cost will most likely be one of it´s biggest advantages in 3 years when games need every last bit of storage.

On the 360 side, they have painted themselves into a corner by not having a HD and providing limited disc space. We wont see the results of this just now, but multiformat games will look better on the PS3 thanks to more space for textures.

If Microsoft hadn´t been so desperate in getting the 360 to market before the PS3 they would have included a HD-DVD drive.

IMO and Probably Microsoft's too they probably would redo the same strategy (launching earlier without an HDDVD) to get an headsttart on the PS3.

Do you believe they would have sold the same number of units had they launched with an HDDVD and on the same date as the PS3?

Do you believe they would have sold the same number of units had they launched with an HDDVD and on the same date as the PS3?

I personally don't but I still would have preferred waiting for my 360 if it meant HD-DVD inclusion at $100 more. Obviously they thought they needed to get a jump on Sony, which is why they did what they did.

They probably thought they could get a few 'bottom-liners' to buy by shaving the bucks off that including an HD-DVD drive would've added. Sort of like the PC market...get them in the door w/ a lower price-point. Then add on the add-ons...

They were more than thinking about it, I'd wager, they were counting on it. Looks like it worked.

I think they should have waited and put in an HD-DVD drive. I also think that they would have still launched before the PS3 if they had planned to put in the HD-DVD. Probably wouldn't had been a year though.

I agree, maybe they'll come out with a revised 360 w/ an internal drive? I might spring for that.

Exept, that 360s a monster. I don't know where I'd put it in my A/V rack. I mean, it looks sort of svelt in photos, but in person, it's ginormous.

The PS3 is kinda big too when I say it for the first time at the Sony Building. I was like damn :eek: !!!!

We know the xbox360 has a brick for its external power supply, not sure what the final design is on the PS3 in that regards. Original some Sony exec said internal was better, which IMO is false, but later reports came that it may be external.

http://tinypic.com/j9ptw0.jpg

Hmm...PS3 is a monster, too, huh? Thought it might have similar form-factor to the PS2, which is much smaller.

I agree, maybe they'll come out with a revised 360 w/ an internal drive? I might spring for that.

Except, that 360s a monster. I don't know where I'd put it in my A/V rack. I mean, it looks sort of svelt in photos, but in person, it's ginormous.

The 360 is tiny. It is dwarfed by most of my A/V components.

If you look at it that way lol

We know the xbox360 has a brick for its external power supply, not sure what the final design is on the PS3 in that regards. Original some Sony exec said internal was better, which IMO is false, but later reports came that it may be external.



Ehmm only on the internet could the reports "come out" that it was external.

Two PS3 demo units at E3 had internal PSU and the misread interview actually said that the PS3 would feature a internal PSU but it was so advanced they should sell it on the side (bad joke from Ken, i bet it was another screwed attempt at translating Japaneese).

That nice pic omits the 360 Power supply:

http://www.igniq.com/images/xbox_360_power_supply_in_action_071205.jpg

Ehmm only on the internet could the reports "come out" that it was external.

Two PS3 demo units at E3 had internal PSU and the misread interview actually said that the PS3 would feature a internal PSU but it was so advanced they should sell it on the side (bad joke from Ken, i bet it was another screwed attempt at translating Japaneese).

if you do a google search there are plenty of articles that show that Ken K. hinted at a external power supply. If that was a bad translation I really don't know.

I searched this thread, but didn't find an answer.
Anyone knows what kind of DVD upconverting to expect out of the PS3?
I'm weighing whether to get an upconverting DVD player now or wait out until the PS3...

I searched this thread, but didn't find an answer.
Anyone knows what kind of DVD upconverting to expect out of the PS3?
I'm weighing whether to get an upconverting DVD player now or wait out until the PS3...

I don't think anything has been announced yet on the specific details other than it will upconvert to 1080p or 1080i/720p if desired.

I don't think anything has been announced yet on the specific details other than it will upconvert to 1080p or 1080i/720p if desired.


Ok. Many thanks!

$599 for the Bad Guy model of the PS3
$200 for the much needed extended service plan
$100 for a game and a BD movie
$50 for taxes

Im leaving Best Buy less a thousand dollars....OMG!!!

With all that said....I cant fricken wait.

Service plans are a rip off, especially on a relatively mid-range CE item like the PS3. You realize that that's where Best Buy and all the other retailers make most of their money? HDTV? Appliance? Yes. Videogame service plan? No. Certainly not $200.

PS3 in production since start of July:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20060718235111.html

PS3 in production since start of July:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20060718235111.html


good to hear.

As for the Service plan I paid $50 for a two year (one time replacement) from Fry's for my $399 xbox360. If best buy's is $200 that is insane.

Hey, I was just thinking we should do a Power-Buy on the PS3. I know there are plenty of people here (and in the game forum) who are going to want the $600 version.

Hey, I was just thinking we should do a Power-Buy on the PS3. I know there are plenty of people here (and in the game forum) who are going to want the $600 version.

I'd be happy if the power buy just guaranteed that I god one at launch.

So does that mean you decided on getting one then?

PS3 in production since start of July:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20060718235111.html

According to the article the Japanese are still getting it first (though by only 6 days). I recall that it was announced that it would be a simultaneous release across all geos

I'd be happy if the power buy just guaranteed that I god one at launch.

So does that mean you decided on getting one then?Yes, I am definitely getting the $600 model, and I know quite a few others in this and the Playstation Forum have already mentioned the same.

And yes, the Japan release was always planned to be a week earlier than other regions.

Yes, I am definitely getting the $600 model, and I know quite a few others in this and the Playstation Forum have already mentioned the same.

And yes, the Japan release was always planned to be a week earlier than other regions.

ok, cool. $600 for me as well.

I will probably grab one as well, just to hold me over until there is a decent BD player out there that I want to buy. There's no launch games that I want to play (maybe getting too old for games), but I have a good collection of favorite PS2 games and my original PS2 is getting old with dents and scratch marks. If the PS3 will upconvert the games to HD through HDMI then I'm in. And if things don't work out, I can always ebay it and make some profits :D

No, it will not "upconvert" old games. They never said it would.

No, it will not "upconvert" old games. They never said it would.

actually they said it would around the same time msoft said the 360 would.

Yes, I am definitely getting the $600 model, and I know quite a few others in this and the Playstation Forum have already mentioned the same.

And yes, the Japan release was always planned to be a week earlier than other regions.

60gb for me too, actually - in europe only the 60gb is released :)

actually they said it would around the same time msoft said the 360 would.I know we're getting a little OT here, but show me. The only thing I've read about is backwards compatibilty with most of PS1/2 library, nothing about upconverting or improving upon them.

I wonder if the PS3 will have the same 75% return rate as the Samsung.

I know we're getting a little OT here, but show me. The only thing I've read about is backwards compatibilty with most of PS1/2 library, nothing about upconverting or improving upon them.

Not the strongest of confirmations but there are a few links:

It was stated on the OPM. Discussion found on NeoGaf (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=96922)

Also leaked Sony document here. (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109226)

I wonder if the PS3 will have the same 75% return rate as the Samsung.

Source?

I've seen some of those feature lists. I don't neccessarily believe them, because Sony (as well as the other manufacturers) tend to leak misinformation for FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt). I seriously doubt production PS3s will upscale any of the older PS1/PS2 games. The only thing the XBOX 360 does is add anti-allaising to a few games like Halo 2, and not even to much effect.

As far as the other stuff, don't feed the Trolls please.

The 360 is tiny. It is dwarfed by most of my A/V components.
I agree, it's smaller than my HDTivo.

I remember being quite impressed with an xbox vs. 360, side by side comparison at my house. Halo2 looked much better, as did any compatable games I threw at it. Also, is there such thing as anti-allaising with out upscaling? I don't think it would do one with out the other.

What right now seems like a major hurdle for the PS3 with it´s Blu-Ray drive cost will most likely be one of it´s biggest advantages in 3 years when games need every last bit of storage.


In 3 years we will be waiting on the 720 and the 360 will be waning. The PS3 may be fully utilizing BD by then only to have to deal whatever MS is throwing down the pipe.

In 3 years, the XBox might finally be a profitable enterprise, too ;).

I, personally, am happy that some companies are actually pushing the envelope. You might laugh, as Sony might not be known around here as the most innovative--but just think about the Walkman, the Trinitron, the original Playstation...and what the PS2 attempted in its day. They were paradigm shifters. They've lost their way a bit (read 'eclipsed' of late by everything from the Apple iPod to the SlingMedia Slingbox), but this PS3/Blu-ray combo might just put them back on the map--if they, of course, deliver more than exquisite PR materials.

In 3 years, the XBox might finally be a profitable enterprise, too ;).

I, personally, am happy that some companies are actually pushing the envelope. You might laugh, as Sony might not be known around here as the most innovative--but just think about the Walkman, the Trinitron, the original Playstation...and what the PS2 attempted in its day. They were paradigm shifters. They've lost their way a bit, and this might just put them back on the map--if they, of course, deliver more than exquisite PR materials.

How long could it take MS to recover from 3 BILLION in debt :confused:

You'll have to ask the Gates Foundation...:D.

How long could it take MS to recover from 3 BILLION in debt :confused:

I don't see MS borrowing $700 million to roll out any of their new products. :D

I don't see MS borrowing $700 million to roll out any of their new products. :D

I haven't either..Any predictions on when MS can/will be come profitable on their consoles?

Regardless the consumer wins as many of us have already benefitted from owning and xbox and xbox360. I'm just wondering how long they'll stay in. I'd hate to see them out of the market as competition is good for gamers :)

I haven't either..Any predictions on when MS can/will be come profitable on their consoles?



I don't think anyone can confidently predict that at this point, not even MS themselves. I think MS as a whole has enough cash reserves and profitability to subsidize the gaming part of their business for the foreseeable future. That's just my opinion, I'm too lazy to research it right now :o I also think they are willing to bleed red ink on the 360 for a good while in an attempt to dampen Sony's dominance in the console business and to make inroads into becoming more of a presence in our living rooms. They must be getting bored with just dominating our offices :)

lol, you are probably right. I hope so, otherwise its just the Big N and Sony. I like all three of them in my living room :)

I don't think anyone can confidently predict that at this point, not even MS themselves. I think MS as a whole has enough cash reserves and profitability to subsidize the gaming part of their business for the foreseeable future. That's just my opinion, I'm too lazy to research it right now :o I also think they are willing to bleed red ink on the 360 for a good while in an attempt to dampen Sony's dominance in the console business and to make inroads into becoming more of a presence in our living rooms. They must be getting bored with just dominating our offices :)

Persistency is the key strategy that has worked well for M$ in the past, espeically when they can't buy out the competitors. They can afford to lose a large sum of money in order to gain a small hold in a particular market. Overtime they would continue to gain little by little, eventually wearing out the competitors. Then, they'd start making money left and right once monopoly is acheived.

On the other hand, the console market has traditionally been dominated by the Japanese whose game studios created signature titles that can make or break the systems (Zelda, Final fantasy, Mario, etc.). Buyers are known to flock to a particular system as a result of certain games.

I think, M$ needs those Japanese signature titles if they hope to claim the top spot in the console world which isn't going to be easy, else they need to create a new gaming segment that attracts the mass (online stuff)--might be even harder to do. And we all know the Japanese will support their own consoles first and foremost. So, it's not going to be easy but M$ has to stay in the fight for now if they hope to regain the 3-4 billion dollars they've lost/invested from the original Xbox. Should they allow Sony to slide by this time like the PS2 vs Xbox era, they may never have another chance in this market especially now that Nintendo is steadily gaining more and more popularity.

I don't think M$ will have it any easier than Sony in this 2nd round/generation of console war, but I think they'll hang in there waiting for the right opportunity to dominate. After all, isn't global domination the ultimate goal of M$ :D

Getting OT again. Try and keep in mind we're talking Blu-Ray aspects, not videogames.

Getting OT again. Try and keep in mind we're talking Blu-Ray aspects, not videogames.


Sorry. You are absolutely correct. I guess it's kind of hard to not talk about video games when the thread topic involves the PS3.

Back on topic......

It should be interesting! There is a lot of speculation and predictions being bandied about and some important unanswered questions.

Will the PS3 actually launch on time in November?

How will the PS3 match up against stand alone BD players in HD playback and SD upscaling?

Will the gamers who buy the PS3 use it for movie playback in enough volume to make an impact on the market?

Will a significant number of non-gamers buy the PS3 as a BD player simply because of the price point?

These are just a few examples. Everyone has their theories and predictions, and I'm sure millions have been spent on market research. The bottom line is... nobody has a crystal ball. Consumer behavior is notoriously fickle and difficult to predict. The CE landscape can change dramatically over the course of a short time, especially when it comes to emerging technologies. Anyone who professes that they know how all of this will turn out is living in a fool's paradise.

I am anxiously awaiting to see how all of this plays out and actually find it entertaining in a sort of demented way :)

I am anxiously awaiting to see how all of this plays out and actually find it entertaining in a sort of demented way :)
Mwahahahahahahaaa!!!! Me too.

In 3 years we will be waiting on the 720 and the 360 will be waning. The PS3 may be fully utilizing BD by then only to have to deal whatever MS is throwing down the pipe.

Take a look at the PS2, the games have never been better or looked better it´s the law of consoles. The xbox on the other hand never peaked, it flattend out, i sold mine after a year, didn´t find anything on it that i really really wanted (i play FPS games on the PC, i hate controllers for that), i figured i can get one in few years when it´s matured and the games are there. Well turns out it would never happened :-)

I don´t forsee a new XBOX in the next 5 years, at least not if Microsoft wants to earn back some of those 5 billion dollars they have lost so far. Ohh that is gonna take some time :-)

Here is a question that has been haunting my head for a long time now. Granted that the Blu-ray playing software on the PS3 is top notch or SONY intends to throw a lot of support for it why wouldn't the PS3 be one of the finest Blu-ray players ever?

The PS2 was a horrible DVD player, mostly because of a low quality DAC. But since there we have HDMI on the PS3 and no image data needs to be converted back and forth then that no longer is a issue.

So what remain is the mpeg2/H.264/VLC software decoder and perhaps even the scaler. For delivering 1080p content directly from the disc to the display device the scaler is not needed and so there only remain the decoders.

So if the decoders are of an acceptable quality then the PS3 should in theory perform as well as any "High end" Blu-ray player out there. And added to that the PS3 has several advantages over standalone players in that it is essentially a computer with a very powerful CPU and graphics processor that are architecturally ideal for decoding and processing video.

So instead of ending up with a player that can never become better because it relies on hardware you have a dynamic platform that can improve all the time by updating its software. So of the Blu-ray player on the PS3 is regularly updated with improvement then it should get better and better. Also if a flaw is discovered in the hardware decoder of a standalone player one cant do anything about it but with the PS3 all you need is to patch the software and you are set.

Of course if the codecs and other software are poorly programmed and never improve then the PS3 will never reach its potential.

If I was SONY I would dump the CELL chip in all future Blu-ray players and just focus on making the software better rather than relying on expensive hardware. That way there would be no need for constantly developing new player with better hardware to keep up with the competition.

Since the PS3 will be one of the first BR players, I hardly think it will be "one of the finest Blu-Ray players ever". I'd be happy if it was just an adequate one. I suspect it will be missing a lot of bells and whistles that a more expensive/top of the line player offers, but those things don't bother me because I hardly use them anyways.

Remember too that Sony will sell their own standalone BR players/recorders, so they will be competing against themselves.

Other than that, Sony needs to start publishing quality titles, and if they don't they will only suffer for it. All those who pony up $600 or so are most likely going to buy at least 1 or 2 BR titles, and if they suck, that could hurt them right off.

When I said fines player I meant purely from a video quality point of view. Obviously I don't think that PS3 will be able to decode the new lossless DTS and Dolby Digital formats. But most other features can be added to the PS3 at some later time via software updates. My point is that the PS3 hardware is so powerfull that it should be viewed as a HTPC. Even of SONY decides not to support the PS3 Blu-ray player there is always the fact that it comes with linux preinstalled. So once the homebrew crowd get their hands on it they might be able to write software that will make the PS3 rival any high end standalone player. The potential is definitly there but time will tell if it will be reached.

I think audio is harder to handle that video. Since video for the new HD formats are lossy compression, it has to be decyphered to deliver almost perfect video to most people.

With audio, well we've lived with Dolby Digital and DTS for about ten years now (and some people with MPEG Audio). But the lossless track are even easier to decode since the data to rebuild is already there.

So my point is if Sony wants the PS3 to decode the lossless audio tracks, it won't take much of the Cell's computing power.


fuad

Yes, but remember too if the PS3 is going to offer Lossless decoding they are going to have to offer jack-pack that offers 5.1 discrete outputs, and I really don't think Sony wants to deal with that. It starts getting a bit complicated at that point.

I am sure HDMI 1.3's 1-plug solution is exactly what Sony is shooting for. KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) should apply.

According to various sources, HDMI 1.3 allows transport of lossless systems such as Dolby TrueHD. To the best of my knowledge, PS3 will support at least the Dolby flavor of lossless, probably both. But only in the higher-end HDMI-enabled model.

Clearly they are targeting the HDMI model more at the home-theater folks.

http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/03/24/gdc2006_ps3_no_hdmi/

This link is nice because it contains logos of some of the various supported standards:

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/06/30/sony_uk_ps3_website_20gb/

I can't tell if the DTS logo is the new losses codec or just a standard logo, can anyone figure that out?

I can't tell if the DTS logo is the new losses codec or just a standard logo, can anyone figure that out?I think that picture is an old one (over a year old) and no longer applies. Sony has stated that they dropped SACD support.

Does the PS3 still support Bluetooth as well?

Sony updated its US site about a week ago with the specs of the system and it shows SACD as well as Bluetooth are still in.

Do you have a link to the statement by Sony dropping SACD? I definitely have seen documents more recently (2-3 weeks) that still have these logos present, so I think they are accurate.

Well, if they updated it, then it's still there. But someone posted in the videogame forum a while back that SACD support was dropped.

But once again, without 5.1 discrete output SACD output is going to be sort of half-assed. No surround support.

Well, if they updated it, then it's still there. But someone posted in the videogame forum a while back that SACD support was dropped.

But once again, without 5.1 discrete output SACD output is going to be sort of half-assed. No surround support.

I'm pretty sure HDMI 1.3 supports that.

Wouldn't it output 5.1 through its toslink connection as well?

I'm also curious if the SACD feature might have been dropped, but only from the "low"-end model of the PS3? Another way to differentiate it from the "high"-end A/V-centric model, perhaps? In that case, everyone is correct...it's been struck, and it also remains. Confirmation would, of course, be great, one way or the other.

Games Devs shying from PS3

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=13291

According to a BusinessWeek Online report, some developers are actually steering resources away from the PS3 in favor of the more affordable Wii from Nintendo and even the Xbox 360. Hirokazu Hamamura, president of publisher and game industry researcher Enterbrain, believes that Sony's next-gen console might not be a smash hit the way previous PlayStation systems have been. "Many developers think the console's initial high price will lead to slow sales and are holding off on creating games for Sony," Hamamura explained.

Sony CEO Sir Howard Stringer himself has admitted that the console is expensive and that consumers are paying for its "potential."

Games Devs shying from PS3

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=13291

According to a BusinessWeek Online report, some developers are actually steering resources away from the PS3 in favor of the more affordable Wii from Nintendo and even the Xbox 360. Hirokazu Hamamura, president of publisher and game industry researcher Enterbrain, believes that Sony's next-gen console might not be a smash hit the way previous PlayStation systems have been. "Many developers think the console's initial high price will lead to slow sales and are holding off on creating games for Sony," Hamamura explained.

Sony CEO Sir Howard Stringer himself has admitted that the console is expensive and that consumers are paying for its "potential."This has nothing to do with the topic, and so, I finally add a second person to my ignore list. Nice job.

Since they've been not yet posted, here are some videos of the PS3 user interface from the E3 demo in May, including the software BD player in action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mq5job_en0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oyd041cYyzc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfpjOlfTdCg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhggjWvtcDI

Wow, very PSP-like (which is a good thing, very clean, easy-to-navigate--and spells good things for interactivity between the systems, i.e. LocationFree, etc.).

Thanks for the links...very interesting stuff.

Will the PS3 be able to output a 1366x768 or 1360x768 signal through HDMI (or component)?

I didn't see this resolution listed in any spec sheet, but i think it would be stupid for Sony not to support it, given the fact that 80% of all LCD TVs sold in stores today have that resolution. Of course the TV's internal scaler could rescale a 720p signal into a 768p one, but given the low quality of most tv's internal scalers, i think that the picture quality would be much better with the scaling handled by the ps3 and a dot-by-dot mapping of the display.

9158

You also have the added complication that even though a display's native resolution might be 1366 x 768 or 1360 x 768, many of them won't accept this an input. It has to be either 1080i or 720p. So the added output resolutions would not matter.

JimP

well, it's true that some displays don't accept their native resolution (especially the ones made by very stupid manufacturers ;) ), but i think most of them do. Mine does (Acer AT3201W).

[QUOTE=9158]JimP

well, it's true that some displays don't accept their native resolution (especially the ones made by very stupid manufacturers ....

Like Sony :)

We all wondered why Sony's wouldn't accept their native rolution. Then they went from 768 to 720 and they did. (or did they just tell us they changed native resolution) conspiracy theories abound.

Its good that your display will accept native resolution. Now if you can just get the output to match it.

Hey guys,

ever since I've gotten into the whole Blu-ray / HD-DVD buzz, I've been wondering one thing: why is everybody so convinced that PS3 is going to be a major hit (at least initially)?

I mean, everywhere you read something along the lines of "yeah, it's expensive, but people are still going to buy it like mad". Why do you believe that? Why do you believe that something that's regarded as (too) expensive is going to sell like crazy?

Because PS2 was so successful? What does PS2 have to do with anything? This is a new generation, and even the most adamant PS2 lovers are going to assess their new options, gaming console wise.

Let me tell you, that I'm not a console gamer, I'm not even much of a PC gamer (anymore), I'm just interested in this whole thing.

Pick any gaming forum, any at all, and listen to what gamers have to say. Most of them clearly state that they're going to wait till the PS3 becomes less expensive. Only a minority says that they're going to buy it right away.

So once again, why does everybody believe that you're going to have to camp on the streets in order to get one of the first PS3s?

Is it so unrealistic to think that PS3s are going to be widely available, even right after it's release date? Personally, I think that this is just what's going to happen.

I honestly have not read one opinion that backs me up on this. The entire world seems convinced that at least the initial batch of PS3s is going to be selling like hotcakes. And I haven't heard a single good reason as for why that should be the case.

Most gamers see the PS3 as an overpriced console, most movie fans see it as un underpriced Blu-ray player. This just leads me to believe that you can walk into a store on November 18th and pick up a PS3 without any problems at all.

Does anyone else believe in this scenario? Is it really so unlikely?

I'm sorry, if I put this into the wrong forum, but I think it's the right one, because PS3 keeps coming up wherever you read Blu-ray.

Do we honestly need another PS3 thread, (and another slamming the PS3 at that?).

Please put this in the PS3 as BR sticky.

If you think I'm slamming the PS3 then I reccomend that you re-read what I posted. I did not say anything about the quality of PS3 - which I think looks amazing, I even loved the games they showed at E3. In fact, if I was a gamer, I'd probably be leaning most towards PS3 out of all consoles.

But that is not what I asked.

Like I said, I have not read one opinion that backs me up on what I think will happen, so yeah, call it "another PS3 thread" if you like, but the direction is very different from what you usually see when it comes to discussing this console.

Ya Chris shhhh! Dont you know that negative comments or questions about blu-ray and/or PS3 are not allowed.

Whether it sells out in November or not I dont know. But I think it should do well with initial sales. There's gamer extremists that will buy every new console and BR wannabe's that are waiting to get it at almost half the price of the stand alone versions.

Additionally it is the holiday season and I'm sure there are kids begging there parents for it. I know my son is SOL if he thinks Santa's bringing it for him though

I believe that the PS3 will sell just fine. You have to remember that pretty much every time a new console comes out everyone complains that it is too expensive (actually they do that with pretty much all new technology). When the PS2 first came out everyone was used to a $150 new console and a $300 PS2 was rediculous, but they went on to sell fine. Then when the XBox 360 came out at $400 everyone groaned again, but we all know how well those sold (it was almost impossible to find a premium system for the first 6 months). Now with the PS3 it is all starting over again. I have no doubt it will sell well though.

You also have to realize that the average playstation gamer is now in their mid 20s. By that time most of them have found decent jobs and can afford to pay a little more.

Finally the cost isn't all that much more if you compare it to a comperable Xbox 360. I figure $400 premium system with $200 HD DVD add on and you are at $600 just like the PS3. And the PS3 actually comes with a bigger hard drive and built in wireless networking doesn't it? (It's been a while since I've actually read the specs)

I guess we'll all just have to wait and see in a couple months.

Chris, I hear you. The Trojan Horse theory was that Sony would get BD players via the PS3 into the homes of millions of people who were just buying it as a game console, and that this would lead to BD movie usage. It sounds great from a marketing standpoint, although won't help for PS3's hooked up to non-HD displays, but IMO this strategy has become seriously flawed since the PS3 is too expensive for strictly gamers (my teenage sons will not replace their PS2 with the PS3 at a $500-$600 price tag, and this price point will seriously reduce the number sold as holiday presents). IMO, many will buy the PS3 as a relatively inexpensive way to get a BD player, but that is not the intention of the Trojan Horse theory, and merely cannabilizes stand-alone players. Of course, nobody knows how this will turn out until it actually launches.

You have to remember that the XBOX 360 has flopped bigtime in Japan and Sony is expecting it to do extremely well in the Asian market.

Whether it sells out in November or not I dont know. But I think it should do well with initial sales. There's gamer extremists that will buy every new console and BR wannabe's that are waiting to get it at almost half the price of the stand alone versions.


I see this point, and it's totally valid. But how many "gamer extremists" and "BR wannabe's" are there? Enough to cause PS3 to be completely sold out for the first few months?

I'm sure there's a huge number, but I just don't see the run on PS3 being big enough to have people camping on the streets.


Finally the cost isn't all that much more if you compare it to a comperable Xbox 360. I figure $400 premium system with $200 HD DVD add on and you are at $600 just like the PS3. And the PS3 actually comes with a bigger hard drive and built in wireless networking doesn't it? (It's been a while since I've actually read the specs)


I understand, but I'm trying to look at the consoles as what they mainly are: consoles. If you compare them as movie players, then yes, an Xbox 360 would be just as expensive of course.

Thanks for your other points though!

(my teenage sons will not replace their PS2 with the PS3 at a $500-$600 price tag, and this price point will seriously reduce the number sold as holiday presents).

That's exactly what I was talking about. Purely out of curiosity I've been browsing through a couple of game forums, and this is what a lot of people (the majority in fact) said.

Let's be clear though: most people don't say they're not going to buy PS3. Most people say they will wait for it to get cheaper. So I'm obviously not talking about total amount of sales, I'm mainly talking about that initial period. And I'm beyond curious to see how things are going to turn out.

In relative terms the PS3 has the HD player built in so it players both HD games and HD movies.

the 360 has the same DVD player that the original xbox used so it can only play games in HD.
There soon to be release HD DVD player add-on is going to place it right along side the PS3 in terms of total package price.

So which will be better a one box or 2 box solution?
kinda of like the ill fated Genesis 32X add-on

So which will be better a one box or 2 box solution?
kinda of like the ill fated Genesis 32X add-on

I think a 2 box solution at least gives a person a choice. If they buy the add on it will certainly be used for watching HD movies where as not all PS3's will be used for this.

Also with a 2 box solution I can see more options such as buying the player now with the intentions of waiting to get the add on later as far as money. And this also falls into category of presents for the holidays. Whether it does the same thing or not kids enjoy opening 2 boxes more then one, also I could picture saying buying my kid the game console and someone else buying the addon for a present

Another thing I meant to bring up about the cost is the number of people that will sell/trade in their old PS2 and it's accessories and games in order to help cover the cost of a PS3. Since Sony has wisely made the PS3 backwards compatible I feel this will be done a lot (I plan on it).

As far as the PS3 hurting stand alone player sales I don't think it will do that much unless it is found to be an excellent player. The majority of the people that are going to be buying into Blu Ray this year are AV enthusiasts/early adopters like us. These people are usually more apt to spend money to get what we percieve to be higher quality components. J6P however usually doesn't buy into technology until about the second or third generation when hardware is much cheaper and software is more readily available.

I however fall into the category of casual gamer/AV enthusiast, so I will probably pick up a PS3 and depending on it's abilities may keep it as my only player if it does well. However if it does not work well I will look into the stand alone player reviews and pick up the best one of them or just live with the PS3 as a stopgap until the Blu Ray players quality improves.

The only thing I know for sure though is Q4 this year is going to be a very interesting time for all of us.

It doesn't need to sell like mad. Selling 10 million units more than HD DVD players is just enough.

Don't forget that this is a BD player forum, so of course most here are planning to get the PS3. The real question is what are pure gamers planning to get (or not to get).

Speaking of PS3, has anyone seen this link????

http://www.reed-electronics.com/electronicnews/article/CA6350202.html?industryid=21365

Apparantly, the PS3 processor at best has a 10-20% yield. The other 80% are not deemed good enough as a PS3 processor.

I wonder just how short the PS3 supply is going to be this November.

So much for the "Trojan Horse"

"Electronic News: What’s the defining factor that makes some chips better than others?

Reeves: Defects. It becomes a bigger problem the bigger the chip is. With chips that are one-by-one and silicon germanium, we can get yields of 95 percent. With a chip like the Cell processor, you’re lucky to get 10 or 20 percent. If you put logic redundancy on it, you can double that. It’s a great strategy, and I’m not sure anyone other than IBM is doing that with logic. Everybody does it with DRAM. There are always extra bits in there for memory. People have not yet moved to logic block redundancy, though"

Topics merged.

Speaking of PS3, has anyone seen this link????

http://www.reed-electronics.com/electronicnews/article/CA6350202.html?industryid=21365

Apparantly, the PS3 processor at best has a 10-20% yield. The other 80% are not deemed good enough as a PS3 processor.

I wonder just how short the PS3 supply is going to be this November.

So much for the "Trojan Horse"

"Electronic News: What’s the defining factor that makes some chips better than others?

Reeves: Defects. It becomes a bigger problem the bigger the chip is. With chips that are one-by-one and silicon germanium, we can get yields of 95 percent. With a chip like the Cell processor, you’re lucky to get 10 or 20 percent. If you put logic redundancy on it, you can double that. It’s a great strategy, and I’m not sure anyone other than IBM is doing that with logic. Everybody does it with DRAM. There are always extra bits in there for memory. People have not yet moved to logic block redundancy, though"

yup, I've read there's more to it plus the clarification at the botom ;)

For me personally I've been aware for a long time, so no Trojan Horse for me :cool:

Electronic News: Let’s look at design for manufacturability from a different standpoint. IBM has said it needs seven of the eight cores on the Cell processor to work for Sony’s Playstation. Will there be an aftermarket for chips with fewer operational cores?
Reeves: There are a lot of chips with six cores operational, and we’ve been thinking about whether we should really throw all of those away. We also have a separate part number for chips with all eight cores good. The stuff that’s going to be for medical imaging, aerospace and defense and data uses eight cores.

Electronic News: But might it be the less-expensive version of Playstation 3?
Reeves: It could, but I don’t think Sony has thought about offering that. That doesn’t mean there aren’t good uses for a chip with four SPEs [synergistic processing elements].

Electronic News: What’s the defining factor that makes some chips better than others?
Reeves: Defects. It becomes a bigger problem the bigger the chip is. With chips that are one-by-one and silicon germanium, we can get yields of 95 percent. With a chip like the Cell processor, you’re lucky to get 10 or 20 percent. If you put logic redundancy on it, you can double that. It’s a great strategy, and I’m not sure anyone other than IBM is doing that with logic. Everybody does it with DRAM. There are always extra bits in there for memory. People have not yet moved to logic block redundancy, though.

Electronic News: Do any of those cores ever go bad, so that you start out with seven and you wind up with six or five?
Reeves: There’s a reliability failure rate for all chip types. By definition, reliability failure is one point circuit that has failed. If it happens to be in an SPE, it will knock out one of the cores. We have electronic fuses now, rather than laser fuses, which you can only blow when you’re doing wafer tests. Electronic fuses you blow electrically. If you really want to be focused on reliability and up-time availability, you can design one of these chips to self-detect. You can ship it with eight cores working, blow one of them, and from a user perspective you would have self-healed it in the field.

Electronic News: But would it be as fast as the chip with eight cores?
Reeves: Yes, because the Playstation 3 only uses seven of them. You’d have a spare. That isn’t implemented in Cell, but it could be. We implemented that same strategy for IBM systems. If you take a logic hit on a chip, you don’t have any impact on performance because there is enough redundancy built in.

Electronic News: What happens if one of the cores blows on the Sony Playstation 3 if there are only seven to start with?
Reeves: It’s just like a reliability failure on your TV or DVD recorder. If it’s within warranty, you send it back. If it’s not, your game doesn’t work anymore. You’ll always have choices about how reliable you want to make a chip with burn-in. Most chips that go into the consumer marketplace on things such as camcorders or DVD players aren’t burned in.But you can add burn-in and improve reliability 5x to 10x. It’s extra cost. Certainly, a company like Sony adds that in.

Electronic News: How much extra cost?
Reeves: It’s variable. On DRAMs and SRAMs, it’s cents. On processors, because they’re so high-powered, it’s not trivial to power 100 or 1,000 at a time. With all the wattage, it can be dollars.

Electronic News: With the price Sony is going to charge, it can easily add that into the cost.
Reeves: Sony is very concerned about quality and backward compatibility. They want to get this right. They tested game after game after game. When there were about 40 Playstation 1 games that didn’t work properly, that didn’t pass their criteria for quality.

Electronic News: So does that mean the current Playstation 2 systems have a Cell processor?
Reeves: No, they have a 440 Power processor. It’s a 130-nanometer, single-core ASIC chip. It’s the same technology as if you buy a Sony DVD or a Sony Bravia TV. Sony is replacing all the Mips design points with Power design points.



Clarification
Tom Reeves, IBM’s VP of semiconductor and technology services, said he was not making any specific references to past or current Cell yields in an executive insight interview that ran last week. He was, instead, referring to large die yield challenges in general and the successful leverage provided by logic redundancy strategies. IBM does not release product specific yield information. This clarification was made on July 14, 2006.

and this "IBM claims Cell production is now going well - Yields back on track" (http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=33310)

THE CELL PROCESSOR is steadily being shoved out the door of IBM plants, despite reports of poor yields.
Sources have informed the Inq that IBM executives have told employees within the firm, that yields are "on or above" targets.

Yields for a large, complex part like the Cell are expected to be low at the start of production and improve steadily thereafter - if IBM had allowed for a very low yield to start with, its plausible that the rumours of bad yields were entirely accurate and this is what IBM was expecting all along.

The exec also said IBM had shipped the first full allotment to Sony under a 'take or pay' arrangement (whereby Sony has the obligation of either taking delivery of the goods or paying a specified amount), and that Sony must have "quite a stockpile of the processors in a warehouse somewhere".

Presumably the warehouse has close links to Asustek, where recently other sources released details of Asustek plans to deliver 4 million units of the PS3 console to Sony this month. µ

Where did 4 million units come from? They just started building them last month. You can't make that many that fast.

Where did 4 million units come from? They just started building them last month. You can't make that many that fast.

who knows whats possible, maybe they have been building them for months and leaving parts out that weren't finished...

Asutek (Asus) got parts for 200k units in June, with more to arrive in July. As well as another .tw firm that also assembles PS3 units for Sony. There are real PS3´s out there, assembled and waiting for the launch :-)


As Ken K said "we have been making Cell ships since "summer" so we have enough of those, the real problem was all the normal parts". It sure looks like they will meet the target.

So that would only be a few weeks since Summer isn't at the halfway point yet. Eitherway as long as they actually ship on Nov.11th as planned.

I wrote that wron, since summer should be "Since last year" (was it summer when they started making the cery first? can´t recall)

The Cell chip has been in production for a long time, no super omg amazing 10 million a day production, but a steady flow that defently will help Sony on the launch.

The predictions of PS3 sellouts are based on four factors:

1. The strength of the Playstation brand globally. It is the indisputable market leader, and has been for almost ten years now.

2. The memories of the PS2 launch in 2000, where units were very scarce from launch until after Christmas.

3. Similar memories of the Xbox 360 launch last holiday season.

4. The global launch strategy, which will require Sony to spread units among all of the regions.

I agree that the vast majority of gamers are now saying they will wait for price drops. However, things will change as the launch approaches, marketing ramps up, and Dear Santa lists start being drafted. The initial demand will almost certainly outstrip supply, even if its just well-off parents, hardcore gamers, and tech enthusiasts buying the units. In late January it will cool off considerably.

and this "IBM claims Cell production is now going well - Yields back on track" (http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=33310)

In fairness, does anyone expect IBM executives to confirm that the yields are poor? Doubtful.

Chris_TC

Ps3 is going to sell well (sold out) because, theres more than 100 millions of people that have a ps2 and theres going to be millions insterested on a ps3, because there are thousands of people that are going to buy it before it get sold out to sell it in ebay at 2x the price and get even more money, because of the hardcore gamers, because of the technology freaks, because of Xmas, because of the $500 version, because of the people who dont care about the price, because in usa theres going to be 500,000 or less consoles, because of so many things.....theres actually no point in said that the ps3 is not going to sell well, thats just make no sense, even the ps2 sells like crazy after 6 years of life.

And also because is going to be the best blu-ray player by the time it comes out, and a multimedia machine.

Chris_TC

Ps3 is going to sell well (sold out) because, theres more than 100 millions of people that have a ps2 and theres going to be millions insterested on a ps3, because there are thousands of people that are going to buy it before it get sold out to sell it in ebay at 2x the price and get even more money, because of the hardcore gamers, because of the technology freaks, because of Xmas, because of the $500 version, because of the people who dont care about the price, because in usa theres going to be 500,000 or less consoles, because of so many things.....theres actually no point in said that the ps3 is not going to sell well, thats just make no sense, even the ps2 sells like crazy after 6 years of life.

And also because is going to be the best blu-ray player by the time it comes out, and a multimedia machine.

The 500$ PS3 version doesn't have a HDMI port which negate every single advantage of having an HD movie if you can only output in 480p. PS3 will sell. Will it be the best player out there. I doubt. If past is an indication of what to come, PS3 will be a mediocre BD player just like PS2 was a mediocre DVD player.

The 500$ PS3 version doesn't have a HDMI port which negate every single advantage of having an HD movie if you can only output in 480p. PS3 will sell. Will it be the best player out there. I doubt. If past is an indication of what to come, PS3 will be a mediocre BD player just like PS2 was a mediocre DVD player.


I believe BD will output at 1080 over compoment.

I believe BD will output at 1080 over compoment.

You can't. Anything above 480P needs to use a ITC and has to be using a compliant HDCP Port.

*EDIT**

For movie that is.

Man I was going to use a PS3 as a Blu Ray player (a $600 value Blu Ray Player I can accept) but now I don't know because of what I heard from a CC guy saying that he heard (telephone game) the PS3's fan and internal circuitry is not designed to support the continuously spinning blu ray movie. That game systems media don't continously spin all the time during game play. He said that the PS3 might have problems playing movies over and over or really long movies like LOTR. I odn't know how much I believe what this guy was talking about but its still a thought.

Comments.

Man I was going to use a PS3 as a Blu Ray player (a $600 value Blu Ray Player I can accept) but now I don't know because of what I heard from a CC guy saying that he heard (telephone game) the PS3's fan and internal circuitry is not designed to support the continuously spinning blu ray movie. That game systems media don't continously spin all the time during game play. He said that the PS3 might have problems playing movies over and over or really long movies like LOTR. I odn't know how much I believe what this guy was talking about but its still a thought.

Comments.

Sounds like crap to me. Where would Sony find drives like that?
:eek:

You can't. Anything above 480P needs to use a ITC and has to be using a compliant HDCP Port.

*EDIT**

For movie that is.

sony has stated tons of times you can display 1080p movies over component.

sony has stated tons of times you can display 1080p movies over component.

This will only be true for a short period of time. Once studio implement HDCP in their movie, you will be screwed.

This will only be true for a short period of time. Once studio implement HDCP in their movie, you will be screwed.

and so will the studios that implement.. They will be cutting off quite a bit of revenue if they do.

and so will the studios that implement.. They will be cutting off quite a bit of revenue if they do.

HDCP is part of the BD forum spec. They wanted to implement HDCP in the first place.

HDCP is part of the BD forum spec. They wanted to implement HDCP in the first place.

I know ;)

I know ;)

Anyway we are arguing about semantics. If Movies Studio decides to never implement HDCP, good for then bu tI wouldn't hold my breath too long. Once the format will start to sell, they will make it happen. I feel sorry for all those ps3 owner who won't know all the technical aspect involved in not having an hdmi port.

Anyway we are arguing about semantics. If Movies Studio decides to never implement HDCP, good for then bu tI wouldn't hold my breath too long. Once the format will start to sell, they will make it happen. I feel sorry for all those ps3 owner who won't know all the technical aspect involved in not having an hdmi port.

and all those playing HD-DVD/Blu-ray in general over component and DVI which is the majority of HDTV sets in homes. :eek:

Honestly, unless the BD player in the PS3 is going to be a quality HW based player, it won't matter. I am a gamer first and foremost, so I'll definitely be picking up an HDMI-equipped PS3, but if the BD player is SW based, it won't get used for movies. In the meantime, I'm enjoying my HD DVD and hoping that the BD camp gets it's collective act together. I am format agnostic as long as the quality is there.

Honestly, unless the BD player in the PS3 is going to be a quality HW based player, it won't matter. I am a gamer first and foremost, so I'll definitely be picking up an HDMI-equipped PS3, but if the BD player is SW based, it won't get used for movies. In the meantime, I'm enjoying my HD DVD and hoping that the BD camp gets it's collective act together. I am format agnostic as long as the quality is there.

The BD player in the PS3 _will_ be software based. Since BD only requires a single video stream, and they're currently using MPEG2, it's trivial to have a software decoder with the power they have (even using 0 SPE). Even VC1 is trivial (Although it will require them to fire up a few SPE processors). H.264 might be a little more tricky, but still solveable.

HDDVD requires 2 video streams, and the XBox is managing that in software, so I'd be very surprised if the PS3 couldn't.

On the topic of component 1080, think of it this way, the more systems that are sold that don't have HDMI, the less chance movie studios will turn on ICT while those systems make up a sizeable percentage of the users of their products. I cheered when the low end PS3 was announced, and when combined with the XBox 360 (also no HDMI), there will be tens of millions of customers that will not be using HDMI/HDCP. Trust me, that's more customers than any studio wants to upset.

The 500$ PS3 version doesn't have a HDMI port which negate every single advantage of having an HD movie if you can only output in 480p. PS3 will sell. Will it be the best player out there. I doubt. If past is an indication of what to come, PS3 will be a mediocre BD player just like PS2 was a mediocre DVD player.

Theres no ICT until like 2010/2012 so.....you are wrong.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060521-6880.html

Theres no indication with the ps2, the ps3 has the cell thats everything that needs to convert the ps3 a AAA player in the market, you can ask to toshiba about that ;) because toshiba is going to do the same later this year.

Theres no ICT until like 2010/2012 so.....you are wrong.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060521-6880.html

Theres no indication with the ps2, the ps3 has the cell thats everything that needs to convert the ps3 a AAA player in the market, you can ask to toshiba about that ;) because toshiba is going to do the same later this year.

You must be the biggest Sony fanboy I have ever seen. PS3 will NOT be an AAA player. It will be a mediocre player just like the PS2 did with DVD. The ICT embargo can be change at anytime by any studio who feels they needs to protect their intellectual property by implementing ICT.

The BD player in the PS3 _will_ be software based. Since BD only requires a single video stream, and they're currently using MPEG2, it's trivial to have a software decoder with the power they have (even using 0 SPE). Even VC1 is trivial (Although it will require them to fire up a few SPE processors). H.264 might be a little more tricky, but still solveable.

HDDVD requires 2 video streams, and the XBox is managing that in software, so I'd be very surprised if the PS3 couldn't.

On the topic of component 1080, think of it this way, the more systems that are sold that don't have HDMI, the less chance movie studios will turn on ICT while those systems make up a sizeable percentage of the users of their products. I cheered when the low end PS3 was announced, and when combined with the XBox 360 (also no HDMI), there will be tens of millions of customers that will not be using HDMI/HDCP. Trust me, that's more customers than any studio wants to upset.

Microsoft has not made any comments regarding HDMI and their DVD-Addon.

http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,,1835502,00.html

Is Sony fighting a losing battle?

The backlash started with the Killzone game demo shown at E3. This was hotly debated in the online community of games sites, blogs and chat forums, and the influential IGN site (since bought by Rupert Murdoch) announced that "IGN believes, overwhelmingly, that the video is a fake".

Rather than dampening down the overheated online arguments about all these issues, Sony's staff have tended to feed the flames, appearing remote or even arrogant. For example, Kaz Hirai, president and chief executive of Sony Computer Entertainment America, recently told PlayStation Magazine: "Every time we go down a path, we look behind and [Microsoft is] right there - we just can't shake these guys. I wish that they would come up with some strategies of their own, but they seem to be going down the path of everything we do."

It's a remark that Hirai might have got away with in an earlier age, but it was instantly dismembered online. Microsoft was first to put a hard drive in a console, and pioneered with its Xbox Live community building (or both Microsoft and Sony are following the Sega Dreamcast). Microsoft was first to do a global console launch, which Sony is emulating. Microsoft offered two versions of its Xbox 360 console - which Sony said was a bad idea - but there will be two versions of the PS3, and so on.

Paul Jackson, who specialises in consumer technologies for market analysts Forrester Research, says: "You can't overestimate how much negativity there is around the PlayStation 3 in the Web 2.0/blogging space, even among hardcore PlayStation fans. The stories just keep getting worse and worse. They've got a real fight on their hands."

IGN has an article as well:

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/722/722923p1.html

August 2, 2006 - We're sure you've seen the talk. A note here, a conversation there -- Predictions of Sony's imminent demise/defeat/demolition has been a popular subject lately, but just how likely is it? IGN's resident PlayStation Team decided to sit down and talk about it amongst themselves to let you, our readers, know exactly what we think. Editor in Chief Jeremy Dunham and his staff of editors, Chris Roper, Juan Castro, and Jeff Haynes, spent the afternoon hashing it out. Here's how it all went down:


Jeremy Dunham

Jeremy Dunham: All right guys, I have to ask. With all the emails and message board posts claiming that it's a videogame apocalypse for Sony, is there any truth to it?

Chris Roper: Sony certainly has its work cut out in order to stay in the dominant position it's in. Microsoft has a year head start and will see its second-generation titles compete against Sony's first. Nintendo will introduce the Wii at roughly the same time, giving gamers a much cheaper option for a new platform. And there's the whole Wii60 idea going around...

The main concern for many people right now I think, including numerous publishers and developers, is the PS3's price. Five or six-hundred dollars is a lot to ask for a gaming console -- plus, you still have to go out and pay $60+ a pop.

Gamers are blaming the high cost on numerous aspects of the system, be it the Cell, Blu-ray drive, HDD inclusion or whatever else, but I have to say that I think it's a good deal. Consider that I paid $400 for my 360 and then had to drop another $100 on the WiFi adaptor. For another $100 I could have a PS3 that would also include a Blu-ray drive, an extra 40GB of HDD space, 100% backwards compatibility and more. Really, I don't think the PS3 is overpriced at all, but the problem is that most people do. And even if they don't, can they afford it?

Jeremy Dunham: I agree with you on the price issue Rope. I think it's certainly the touchiest aspect. $500-600 is a lot of money, but the value there is enormous (as it is with most game systems). Just look the price of other high-end electronics. The new top iPods are $400 bucks, stand-alone Blu-ray players are $800-plus, and larger plasma TVs are $3000 and up.

Judging by how quick these things fly off the shelves, it's obvious that consumers have and will part with their money to get the latest high-tech thingamajig.


etc, etc.. 5 pages

While $600 isn't 'peanuts', I find those balking at it as ASTRONOMICAL!!!(add to infinity) a little off their rocker. Or at the very least have lost perspective.

http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/top/console-prices-adjusted-for-inflation-or-500-aint-spensive-174085.php

An interesting article (one of a number, actually), that do comparison of console prices through the years adjusted for inflation...

Please note that the Atari 2600, my beloved childhood dream machine, was priced in the mid-$600s adjusted ($200 or thereabouts in late 70s dollars). And my folks also bought into the microwave oven, cable TV and the personal computer early on as well--and they were/are definitely NOT zany big-spending early adopters. They just knew good things when they saw/heard about them, gave them a try and found they loved them...

My how quickly we forget...these are all luxury goods after all. And "value" isn't what you spend, but what you get for what you spend.

One luxury Atari 2600 had was that early on there was no competition.

The PS3 is going also against the cheaper 360 and even cheaper Wii.

But at the same time Sony is still the world leader in home video games.

Paul Jackson, who specialises in consumer technologies for market analysts Forrester Research, says: "You can't overestimate how much negativity there is around the PlayStation 3 in the Web 2.0/blogging space, even among hardcore PlayStation fans. The stories just keep getting worse and worse. They've got a real fight on their hands."

his comments before that quote ;)

PS3 to come out on top, says Jez San
Thursday 3-Aug-2006 12:28 PM Industry Veteran Jez San predicts a successful run for Sony's console, "but only because its got Blu-ray"

Jez San, founder of the now-defunct Argonaut Software and now involved with PS3 slash 'em-up, Heavenly Sword has said that he thinks the PlayStation 3 will come out on top in the next-gen console war, "but only because its got Blu-ray."

Speaking to The Guardian, San said: "I think the combination of a next-generation games machine and a next-generation DVD player that plays full high-definition movies is very compelling, despite the huge price. Remember price is just a function of time and volume. It doesn't matter what the PS3 comes out at, it's what it gets down to, over time, that's important."

Advertisement:In the same article, market analyst Paul Jackson of Forrester Research agrees with San's comments, saying that Sony stands a good chance because, "Far more people will go for a PS3 than spend $1,000 on a Blu-ray player ...it's a question of how quickly [Sony] gets the price down."

Jackson goes on to echo San's own comments on the importance of price. "You can't get to the mass market until you get down to $300/£200 [mark]."

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=143860

One luxury Atari 2600 had was that early on there was no competition.

The PS3 is going also against the cheaper 360 and even cheaper Wii.

But at the same time Sony is still the world leader in home video games.

If you get HDDVD for the 360, the 360 is actually supposed to be more expensive than the $500 ps3.

Microsoft has not made any comments regarding HDMI and their DVD-Addon.

They did show their hddvd addon and from looking at the pictures of the back of it, it didn't have hdmi, it had some other kind of port on it.

If you get HDDVD for the 360, the 360 is actually supposed to be more expensive than the $500 ps3.

True, but it's an add-on, thus IF is the key word.

Or you wait for the 360 to drop than get the add-on.

Either way, you don't have to buy it. With the PS3 you have to buy bluray, even if you have no use for it.

I don't see the 360 really saving HDDVD from potential doom, though I could be totally mistaken on that point.

If you get HDDVD for the 360, the 360 is actually supposed to be more expensive than the $500 ps3.

For $160 it would be the same but you'd be without a 20GB HDD that the $500 PS3 will have.


$300 - xbox360 (no HDD, no HD cable)
$40 - vga or component (if you want to watch HD-DVD's in HD)
$160 - HD-DVD Add-on
------------
$500


$400 - xbox360 (20GB HDD, component included)
$100 - HD-DVD add-on
-----------
$500

True, but it's an add-on, thus IF is the key word.

Or you wait for the 360 to drop than get the add-on.

Either way, you don't have to buy it. With the PS3 you have to buy bluray, even if you have no use for it.

I don't see the 360 really saving HDDVD from potential doom, though I could be totally mistaken on that point.

same rules apply, you can wait for a price drop on the PS3 and you don't have to buy it. Both are luxury items.

Of course the same rules apply, that goes without saying.

Since the 360 has is going on 1 year since release date, expect a 360 price drop well before a PS3 price drop.

Of course the same rules apply, that goes without saying.

Since the 360 has is going on 1 year since release date, expect a 360 price drop well before a PS3 price drop.

obviously :cool:

yup, obviously

For $160 it would be the same but you'd be without a 20GB HDD that the $500 PS3 will have.


$300 - xbox360 (no HDD, no HD cable)
$40 - vga or component (if you want to watch HD-DVD's in HD)
$160 - HD-DVD Add-on
------------
$500


$400 - xbox360 (20GB HDD, component included)
$100 - HD-DVD add-on
-----------
$500Don't forget the charger kit for 360 ;)

Originally Posted by briankmonkey
For $160 it would be the same but you'd be without a 20GB HDD that the $500 PS3 will have.


$300 - xbox360 (no HDD, no HD cable)
$40 - vga or component (if you want to watch HD-DVD's in HD)
$160 - HD-DVD Add-on
------------
$500


$400 - xbox360 (20GB HDD, component included)
$100 - HD-DVD add-on
-----------
$500
Don't forget the charger kit for 360 ;)

Sorry, I don't follow on that one. Enlighten me.

Of course the same rules apply, that goes without saying.

Since the 360 has is going on 1 year since release date, expect a 360 price drop well before a PS3 price drop.

That may not be true because alot of people have talked about the ps3 dropping price early in 2007 because of bluray becoming more mainstream and easier to produce. Also the Cell is supposed to be way cheaper to make in the upcoming 6 months after ps3 is released.

Don't forget the charger kit for 360 ;)

Do you mean a battery charger for the controllers?

That may not be true because alot of people have talked about the ps3 dropping price early in 2007 because of bluray becoming more mainstream and easier to produce. Also the Cell is supposed to be way cheaper to make in the upcoming 6 months after ps3 is released.

The ps3 would have to be selling poorly of the price to drop within 6 monhths of the ps3's release.

If it still sells out at $599, I don't see why Sony would want to drop the price.

For $160 it would be the same but you'd be without a 20GB HDD that the $500 PS3 will have.


$300 - xbox360 (no HDD, no HD cable)
$40 - vga or component (if you want to watch HD-DVD's in HD)
$160 - HD-DVD Add-on
------------
$500


$400 - xbox360 (20GB HDD, component included)
$100 - HD-DVD add-on
-----------
$500

You for $100 for the WiFi adaptor on X360 if you want WiFi!

The ps3 would have to be selling poorly of the price to drop within 6 monhths of the ps3's release.

If it still sells out at $599, I don't see why Sony would want to drop the price.

you might be right and if thats the case, then Sony may end up with the top console again. They funny thing is someone would pay $400 for a video IPOD then complain about $500 or $600 for a ps3.

Do you mean a battery charger for the controllers?Yep. PS3 doesn't need it as it can charge a wireless controller via a USB cable to PS3.

Yep. PS3 doesn't need it as it can charge a wireless controller via a USB cable to PS3.

Damn xbox360 is looking expensive if you want wifi, rechargable batteries, a harddrive, vga or component, and an HDDVD drive. Even with all that msoft still hasn't promised HDMI.

Yep. PS3 doesn't need it as it can charge a wireless controller via a USB cable to PS3.

ok, thanks. I was actually listing things needed for HD movie play back.

ok, thanks. I was actually listing things needed for HD movie play back.How about a wireless controller instead of a remote? :)

Won't it come with both?

ok, thanks. I was actually listing things needed for HD movie play back.

an X360 Core + HD-DVD Addon and a Component cable is all you need to play HD movie playback.

an X360 Core + HD-DVD Addon and a Component cable is all you need to play HD movie playback.

Core doesn't come with an HD capable cable. VGA and Component cable are $40 each MSRP.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7625803&type=product&id=1130986342514

Component Cable $20 for XBox 360.

I wonder what Cables will come with the PS3?????

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7625803&type=product&id=1130986342514

Component Cable $20 for XBox 360.

I wonder what Cables will come with the PS3?????

good to see non-MS brands at half the price. :) Still, I recommend buying the $399 xbox360 which includes component and composite as well as 20GB HDD so you don't have to buy one or memory card to save games. Also as well as having access to all 360 games with an HDD.

MS brand VGA and component $39.99:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7479604&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat94400050011&id=1126591946321

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7461828&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat94400050011&id=1126591945844

Thanks for the reccomendation.

I'd rather wait though.

And I would save $20 on getting a non ms brand, thanks anyway! :)

Forget the PS3. I'm going with the Wii! :D


Wii Commercial (http://insignificantthoughts.com/2006/08/11/hi-im-a-wii/)

Forget the PS3. I'm going with the Wii! :D


Wii Commercial (http://insignificantthoughts.com/2006/08/11/hi-im-a-wii/)

lol, I didn't have the sound on but I want the Wii too :D

Forget the PS3. I'm going with the Wii! :D


Wii Commercial (http://insignificantthoughts.com/2006/08/11/hi-im-a-wii/)

many are leaning that way, and with many more units come XMas, nintendo says 5 Milllion, and over 20 launch titles, the Wii may clean up any left over people who can't pick up the ps3 due to short supplies.

Not too mention the far cheaper price for the wii.

Fun video, doesn´t it belong in the DVD forum since the Wii can´t play HD in any format :-)

PS3 real size Mock Up meeting the XBOX 360

http://www.hidethelinux.ca/ps360.jpg

http://www.hidethelinux.ca/ps360_2.jpg

The XBOX 360 hidden extra pounds (i guess the Wii would be kate Moss compared this?)

http://media.arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/xbox360.media/brick.jpg

http://images.enet.com.cn/egames/articleimage/2006/0809/s44d9448d5d207.jpg

I was able to check out the Pioneer BDP-HD1 Blu-ray at Pioneers new showroom @ south coast plaza and i must say i was really disapointed.... :(

I expected to see the real potential of this format but was underwhelmed to say the least.

This is the elite going for $1800 ? WTF? Picture quality looked only slightly better that the samsung... Definitely not worth the price....

Is it the codec? Or the format?

Is it the codec? Or the format?It's a wrong thread, sir... Unless you can specify what movie they were demo'ing your question is at the dead end anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mq5job_en0

PS3 interface, tried searching for it but can't find it thoguh the search hopefully its not a repost

Man I was going to use a PS3 as a Blu Ray player (a $600 value Blu Ray Player I can accept) but now I don't know because of what I heard from a CC guy saying that he heard (telephone game) the PS3's fan and internal circuitry is not designed to support the continuously spinning blu ray movie. That game systems media don't continously spin all the time during game play. He said that the PS3 might have problems playing movies over and over or really long movies like LOTR. I odn't know how much I believe what this guy was talking about but its still a thought.

Comments.

Drives don't spin down when data is constantly being accessed (as would be the case with a movie). He has no idea what he is talking about. The PS3 will play movies fine.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6155912.html?tag=latestnews;title;0

"Analyst: PS3 to win next-gen war
The Yankee Group predicts 30 million PS3s, 27 million Xbox 360s, and 11 million Wiis sold in North America by 2011. "


^^ Does anyone ever take any of these "analysts" stories seriously anymore, one way or the other?

4 million is pretty close all things considered.

But what he they say make sense:"However, by the time third-generation consoles reach market maturity in 2011, the PlayStation 3 will once again be the market leader."

I am totaly pro PS3 and BD, but this article is complete ********. There is simply no way someone can predict which console will prevail in the next few years considering that the x360 has not gained a sensible advantage, and the PS3 is not launched and no killer titles will be out any time soon. Right now, I would bet all three consoles will fail.(Wii has too little power, making it no better than current generation videogames - with unique control, x360 still is treated by developers as a PC clone - thanks to microsoft great software development tools, and the PS3 is too expensive given the competition - will have a rought start, although the hardware being sold IS worth the price... where is the software thou?)

And even the proposed market share actually indicates a tie, not a clear victory for PS3...

Allan

A load of new pics of the sexy hardware

http://www.gfdata.de/archiv08-2006-gamefront/2083.html

A load of new pics of the sexy hardware

http://www.gfdata.de/archiv08-2006-gamefront/2083.html

Personally I'm not a fan of the convex design, but the the actual games look amazing and that's what I care about :D

edit: All pics can be seen at sony's site as well

http://www.us.playstation.com/PS3/gallery.html

It's the George Foreman Grill.

It's the George Foreman Grill.
Hasn't there been more George Forman grills sold than Xbox 360's? :D :rolleyes:

I don't know, but I would not doubt it.

I surely have no plans on getting a 360, but I do have the grill.

I have the grill too lol ... well and the 360 (just to play halo 2 and soon 3 and maybe gears of war and stream music form my laptop) but man can't wait for the ps3.

Gamefaqs has a poll today which does not look too good for Sony in the eyes of gamers. Take a look

When do you plan to buy a PlayStation 3? August 27, 2006

Vote Accepted
On launch day, I've already put in a pre-order 1.59% 1231
On launch day, I'll put in a pre-order as soon as I can 4.3% 3330
On launch day, I'll be standing in line 2.32% 1792
I'll wait a few months until things die down 14.73% 11397
I'll wait until there's a price drop 42.68% 33021
I doubt I'll ever buy one 34.37% 26591
TOTAL VOTES 77362

http://www.gamefaqs.com/poll/index.html?poll=2483


After August 27, it will appear below..
http://www.gamefaqs.com/poll/list.html

I don't see how that poll suggests anything even remotely negative towards the PS3.

Lets see. Almost 8% of people polled plan on getting in on the action at launch. There definately won't be enough supply to cover these at launch.

65% of gamers polled plan on getting one eventually. Sony would be REALLY happy if 65% of their market owned a PS3.

Where's the bad news here?

I don't see how that poll suggests anything even remotely negative towards the PS3.

Lets see. Almost 8% of people polled plan on getting in on the action at launch. There definately won't be enough supply to cover these at launch.

65% of gamers polled plan on getting one eventually. Sony would be REALLY happy if 65% of their market owned a PS3.

Where's the bad news here?

yup, 65% of the market is one hell of a lot of blu-ray players and gaming machines :D

yup, 65% of the market is one hell of a lot of blu-ray players and gaming machines :D

J6P will never buy the PS3 at 600$.

I wonder how noisy the PS3 will be? do you think you can make it noiseless?

I wonder how noisy the PS3 will be? do you think you can make it noiseless?

Sony said as quiet as a slim PS2 which is extremely quiet. We'll have to wait until it's released to really know.

Sony said as quiet as a slim PS2 which is extremely quiet. We'll have to wait until it's released to really know.Cell and RSX has some heat issues, possibly causing the downgrade of the clock speed of each in order to play nice with heat...

Final PS3 dev kit information (http://www.ps3land.com/article-573.php)

The first interesting point is that the final dev kits run very quietly, and do not produce as much heat as earlier development hardware.Of course the PS3 will be smaller than the SDK I posted...

Does the PS3 come with a remote control to use with the Blue-ray, DVD, ?

Does the PS3 come with a remote control to use with the Blue-ray, DVD, ?

The controller is wireless and if it's anything like the PS2 & xbox360 it will be able to do movie playback controls. They will probably sell an optional remote just as past consoles have.

Thanks

I only wish it would be region free! has anyone read ANYTHING about the possibility of cracking the code on the PS3 or Blue-ray players? (for Blue-ray movies)

Non gamer question. If I buy the $600 PS3 to play movies on and later decide I want to try out some games, do I have everything I need, minus Gran Torino 3 or whatever.

Non gamer question. If I buy the $600 PS3 to play movies on and later decide I want to try out some games, do I have everything I need, minus Gran Torino 3 or whatever.

Yes, It comes with a 60 GB HDD and Wifi for online gaming, etc.

Non gamer question. If I buy the $600 PS3 to play movies on and later decide I want to try out some games, do I have everything I need, minus Gran Torino 3 or whatever.

Yes the PS3 is a gaming machine. The movie playing is just icing on the cake

I was just wondering about peripherals...joysticks, steering wheels etc.

I was just wondering about peripherals...joysticks, steering wheels etc.

Well it'll have the std controller which you'll be able to play the games with. For a game like Grand Turismo if you want a racing wheel you'll have to buy one.

AFAIK theres been no word on IR support being built in since the controllers are bluetooth. id be soo pissed if i couldnt control it using my harmony

Hdbeat just listed hdmi cable not included with the ps3, is that one of the ways Sony is cutting down the cost of the PS3? LOL

Hdbeat just listed hdmi cable not included with the ps3, is that one of the ways Sony is cutting down the cost of the PS3? LOL

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6157113.html

Here's a link to back that up. I think for that price it should at least include component cables. I have bought some really cheap HDMI cables, but I wouldn't doubt stores will be pushing them hard and the cheapest I have seen in a store was around $65-$75. Most would be duped into buying the $100+ monsters I would guess.

Or you can spend less than $10 ;)

Or you can spend less than $10 ;)

As I did :rolleyes: . But who will get to the store, find out there is no included cable and have to buy one on the spot? Many. Or worse, get it home and find out there are no included cables. They just want it to work and won't wait a couple days for one to come in the mail.

As I did :rolleyes: . But who will get to the store, find out there is no included cable and have to buy one on the spot? Many. Or worse, get it home and find out there are no included cables. They just want it to work and won't wait a couple days for one to come in the mail.

It would be retarded and I highly doubt that will be the case..

It would be retarded and I highly doubt that will be the case..

What would be retarted? Or be "the case"? That people wouldn't know that there are no HD cables in the box or that there actually aren't any HD cables in the box?

People not knowing= normal
No HD cables in the box= retarded

What would be retarted? Or be "the case"? That people wouldn't know that there are no HD cables in the box or that there actually aren't any HD cables in the box?

People not knowing= normal
No HD cables in the box= retarded

What you said would be retarded. "find out there is no included cable and have to buy one on the spot? Many. Or worse, get it home and find out there are no included cables. " That has never been done with a Sony console before (probably any console for that matter).

No HD cables is different than what I quoted. I would imagine component cables to be included in the premium but who knows. It will still be playable out of the box even with composite (how the Core 360 ships).

1. It happens all the time...look at the DVD player forums.
2. http://www.gamespot.com/news/6157113.html I'm posting this again just for you.

HD cables "not included". I think it's pretty straight forward. You act like I like this or it's a good thing. I am simply stating that I think for the price Sony could throw in some "ten dollar" HDMI cables. Some will buy more expensive cables at the store that they buy the PS3. I would venture to say the opinion that these big box stores won't sell any expensive HDMI cables on the PS3 launch day is "retarded'.

Did you literally think I meant "no cables"...come on. You're sharper than that.

1. It happens all the time...look at the DVD player forums.
2. http://www.gamespot.com/news/6157113.html I'm posting this again just for you.

HD cables "not included". I think it's pretty straight forward. You act like I like this or it's a good thing. I am simply stating that I think for the price Sony could throw in some "ten dollar" HDMI cables. Some will buy more expensive cables at the store that they buy the PS3. I would venture to say the opinion that these big box stores won't sell any expensive HDMI cables on the PS3 launch day is "retarded'.

I said console, not DVD players. Lack of HDMI is not the same as lack of HD cables ;)

Did you literally think I meant "no cables"...come on. You're sharper than that.

I didn't think you meant it literally but my resonse of "retarded" was to the literal. I thought you would have picked that up ;) It would be retarted if it was how you literally wrote it :cool:

I said console, not DVD players. Lack of HDMI is not the same as lack of HD cables ;)



I didn't think you meant it literally but my resonse of "retarded" was to the literal. I thought you would have picked that up ;) It would be retarted if it was how you literally wrote it :cool:

We are discussing HT/gaming equipment that might or might not come with HD cables...to that I used DVD players as an example of a product that the average person might buy and not realize deosn't come with HD cables.

Your next post stated that you could always use the composite cables, so it is easy to asume that you thought I literally meant "no cables"...in any event for $600 the PS3 should come with a cheap HDMI cable. End of story. You and I both know to get our cable before we get the PS3...beautiful.

You and I both know to get our cable before we get the PS3...beautiful. Like I said in another thread, if you already know that you can get a HDMI cable for around US$10 or less, tell it to everyone. Tell that to those who want to get a PS3 with a HDMI or those who are on the fence. Help others save money now. Trust me - you'll get good karmic points and you'll feel better. :D


fuad

Cell and RSX has some heat issues, possibly causing the downgrade of the clock speed of each in order to play nice with heat...



Rly? How much of a downgrade?

Cell and RSX has some heat issues, possibly causing the downgrade of the clock speed of each in order to play nice with heat...

While I am unable to speak for RSX, the Cell processor has no "heat issues" at 3.2GHz. Especially any which would degrade the clockspeed from it's announced level. IBM servers have been shipping at the announced speed for some time. Sony and IBM has just been granted finalized FCC approval of the production PlayStation3 with it's Cell processor at 3.2Ghz.

I'd be very curious as to where you're gettting your information.

I'm guessing it comes from an article at theinquirer.net weeks ago, where someone claimed (it has not been confirmed) that the RSX clockspeed was lowered by less than 10%. (http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=33995)

I'm guessing it comes from an article at theinquirer.net weeks ago, where someone claimed (it has not been confirmed) that the RSX clockspeed was lowered by less than 10%. (http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=33995)

Yeah, the fun part is that the developers have constantly gotten better and faster DevKits. They aren´t used to anything faster anyway, so the question is, how much would it really matter...

Thanks, great thread. A lot of information.

The real PS3 hardware in action

http://www.gameklip.com/v/1521/

I wouldn't call that in action. Just finalized.

Unfortunately not all sides.

more pics at the link:

http://videogamejocks.com/blog/2006/09/21/playstation-3-packaging/

http://www.gfdata.de/archiv09-2006-gamefront/ps3pack-2.JPG

http://www.gfdata.de/archiv09-2006-gamefront/ps3pack-3.JPG

From GameDaily.com (http://www.gamedaily.com/features/?id=1123)
In the meantime, the performance of the development unit is pretty sharp. There's various lights flashing on the front of it, as well as accessibility that allows a laptop to be hooked up to it (for development purposes- the final retail unit shall not have this). It runs pretty silently, with not even a hint of bothersome fan noises and no problems with overheating over a three hour span. However, keep in mind that the unit was only running games during our test run, and not multiple discs like past PlayStation/PlayStation 2 games or Blu-Ray movies.


fuad

A Famitsu blog is reporting that the 20gb PS3 version will now include an HDMI port. Also, price drop (49980 yen -> $427.50) in Japan.

From IGN PS3 Keynote site
7:22: A question on why HDMI only is in the high level version of the PS3 only. Kutaragi explains that sony was worried that if they put the HDMI in the lower version, some would complain about having to pay for something they don't want. However, HDMI penetration has come faster than expected. He then asks people if they want HDMI in all models. Everyone in the audience says yes. He then confirms that all models, including the 20 gig version, will have an HDMI port.
From what we can tell, this is only for Japan.

You'll have to wait for overseas confirmation to see if this applies in your territory as well.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8486533&&#post8486533

Should apply to all territories. (If he is serious about the HDMI penetration, because it is worldwide...)

The Gran Turismo HD game is something to watch. If they sell the basic graphics engine for US$10 and sell the tracks and cars for 50 cents (not the artiste) they'll make bucketloads more than if they sell it for US$50 all in. Look at cell phone ring tones.

If they sell it for US$30 with all the tracks but no cars, they'd still make a ton of money. It's an interesting concept.


fuad

PS3 Price drop announced by Sony

link to story (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060922/ap_on_hi_te/japan_sony_playstation;_ylt=Arup9VvpGRqQRHfXiRZfw86s0NUE;_yl u=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-)

20GB & 60GB
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060922/tgsk_05.jpg
20GB HDMI
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060922/tgsk_04.jpg
BD logo on box
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060922/tgsk_07.jpg
20GB specs
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060922/tgsk_06.jpg
Link (http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060922/tgs1.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dav%2Bwatch%2Bimpress%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rls%3D com.microsoft:en-US)

What is LPCM? Does this mean it will send out 7.1 over HDMI only?

What is LPCM? Does this mean it will send out 7.1 over HDMI only?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LPCM

Wikipedia is your friend :)

Cool, thanks :D

What I don't see on that sheet is any mention of Dolby True HD or DTS HD master audio. Does that mean they will not be included in the production box, just the 20G version, or TBD?

Checked another thread, True HD will be included DTS HDMA still not sure.