what were the realities of the survey? the last credible survey I saw had the ps3 way below the wii in japan. Depends on what you mean by credible. The poll was an on-site poll, not a phone survey or post TGS. The question was something like "When the next generation game machine is released, which one would you want?" The options are:
Playstation 3
Wii
XBox 360
I won't buy any

It is still an ongoing poll. PS3 at 40%, Wii at 39% and 360 still at 16%.


fuad

Well, Sony is using Bluetooth for the controllers.

I do not think IR would be too good for that purpose.

Maybe all audio equipment should start implementing Bluetooth in the future instead of antiquated IR?

The 360 has wireless controlers using propriatary RF. While the remote uses IR. This is how I want the PS3 to do it. They can have the Bluetoth controllers, that should work well enough, but using Bluetooth for the remote sucks.

Most A/V equepment uses IR and that's not going to change anytime soon. IR is not antiquated at all, it works really well and it's cheap. And I think you're likely to see A/V gear use RF before Bluetooth.

The 360 has wireless controlers using propriatary RF. While the remote uses IR. This is how I want the PS3 to do it. They can have the Bluetoth controllers, that should work well enough, but using Bluetooth for the remote sucks.
Apart from your complaint that Bluetooth won't work well with a master IR remote, what other objections do you have against the PS3's BD remote?


fuad

Isn't that enough? That's why you get a universal remote. I don't want to have a dozen remotes lying around. That's what I got my Harmony remote for. I keep my 12 remotes out of sight and use the Harmony remote.

Apart from your complaint that Bluetooth won't work well with a master IR remote, what other objections do you have against the PS3's BD remote?


fuad

My only issue at hand is, can I use my Harmony remote, if not, then the lack of backlighting and size of buttons would be my only issue with the remote.

Isn't that enough? That's why you get a universal remote. I don't want to have a dozen remotes lying around. That's what I got my Harmony remote for. I keep my 12 remotes out of sight and use the Harmony remote. It may be just me but if you already have 12 remotes out of site, then you won't have 12 remotes lying around and a Harmony and a PS3 remote. Just a Harmony and the PS3 remote. Now that's harmony. :D

By the way, I'm certain that Logitech would issue a USB IR adapter for PS3 that can work with the PS3. They've already announced their ChillStream controller.


fuad

I wholeheartedly agree w/ those that would like to see a less 'controller'-driven solution for PS3 Blu-ray movie use, and one more A/V home theater standard-driven.

If Sony wants the PS3 to be the heart of your living room HT set-up, it needs to integrate well and play nice...and that means working w/ popular universal remotes.

I'm sure, as suggested above, that 3rd party vendors will step up if Sony drops the ball on this. But make no mistake, this IS Sony dropping the ball, IMHO.

for those that want to pre-order today is the day. the 10th and only the 10th is the day they take pre-orders (EB and GS)

for those that want to pre-order today is the day. the 10th and only the 10th is the day they take pre-orders (EB and GS)

I saw your post and called our local GS immediately. No go...all gone. That irked me severely, because the manager said they just a week ago (fresh from returning their managers conference) that they weren't going to be doing pre-orders at all. Either he was lying for some reason, or the company did a very odd 180 w/ their policy decision.

In any case, according to the fellow I just spoke w/, all of the northern Illinois EB/GS allotment is now spoken for...

I just plunked my money down for my PS3 today, and was very lucky. Using GS/EB's website to find local stores in my area, the first 6 were already out (and this was at 11am EST). When I got a hold of the seventh, he said they were just halfway through, so I jumped in the car, drove over, and made the pre-order (60gb version). In just calling all of the stores in the area, the responses have been that they are "selling out" quickly. It makes you wonder then, if these stores have only a limited allotment of machines, what sense does it make to try and wait in line at a store that'll probably not have more than 20? (that number is PURE speculation on my part)

The local stores in Silicon Valley area have lines wrapped around the storest, etc..

Wow, did you guys catch the weight of PS3? 5 kg packed full of electronic goodness. :)

Hope to snag one around Christmas.

waited in line for most of the night. #3 pre-order in the bag:).

For anyone who bought, or tried to buy, the PS3 recently from EBgames or Gamespot I made a poll (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=734634). Originally put it in the Blu-ray Players section of the forum but was told it had to go in the Playstation section of the forum.

For anyone who bought, or tried to buy, the PS3 recently from EBgames or Gamespot I made a poll (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=734634). Originally put it in the Blu-ray Players section of the forum but was told it had to go in the Playstation section of the forum.

Read the master sticky (by Dave B) here and in all HD Optical forums, no chat about PS3 or X-Box 360, but seems there is some heavy handed use (or non use as the case may be) of that directive. YMMV? :confused:

Read the master sticky (by Dave B) here and in all HD Optical forums, no chat about PS3 or X-Box 360, but seems there is some heavy handed use (or non use as the case may be) of that directive. YMMV? :confused:I did notice that and if that relates to no discussion at all about the PS3, even when related to Blu-ray playback, I could understand why my thread was closed. Still I also notice that many threads about the Xbox 360 add-on are allowed in the HD DVD player area so I thought that David Bott was only referring to game related threads.

.... I thought that David Bott was only referring to game related threads.

You may be right, and I mis-understood? :confused:

A repeat post, in case you missed it. From Reuters: (http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyID=2006-10-10T232515Z_01_N10356346_RTRIDST_0_TECH-MEDIA-GAMESTOP-PLAYSTATION3-COL.XML)
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - GameStop Corp., said on Tuesday its 3,600 GameStop and EB Games stores in the United States have sold out their quota of pre-orders for Sony Corp.'s new PlayStation 3 video game console.

Each store had no less than eight and no more than 13 of the anticipated next-generation players available on pre-order, GameStop spokesman Chris Olivera told Reuters.
So that makes it 46,800 units for GameStop at most (13x3600). 353,200 launch units to go! :cool:


fuad

Good. There is hope. Unless there are 353,200 morons out there hoping to do a killing on eBay....

So that makes it 46,800 units for GameStop at most (13x3600). 353,200 launch units to go! :cool:

hmmm.... that sucks for me if the 13 part is accurate. I was told 16 units at my local EB games and I'm supposedly #16.

supposed to 2million by dec 31st, all air shipped. Need to find a way to track shipments.

hmmm.... that sucks for me if the 13 part is accurate. I was told 16 units at my local EB games and I'm supposedly #16.
It doesn't matter whether you were #1 or #16. The units are first-come, first-serve to preorder customers on launch day. If they sold 16 preorders, but only receive 8 PS3s, then the first 8 preorder customers to hit the store on launch day will get the boxes.

From Next-Gen.biz (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3978&Itemid=2)
New research has shown massive consumer belief in the PlayStation 3, and waning interest in Xbox 360.

According to the study by Los Angeles based Interpret, 8.9 million U.S consumers ‘are prepared’ to pay full price ($500 or $600) for the PlayStation 3 this fall, compared to 5.7 million consumers who are willing to buy Wii at $250 and just 800,000 people who are willing to pay full price for Xbox 360 ($300 to $400).

This research, released first to Next Generation, was derived from a sample of 2,000 interviews Interpret conducted online, weighted to 2004 Census data of 13 to 54 year-olds in the U.S. Researchers ran a parallel random digit dial telephone study as a back-up to weigh the data to what the US population looks like to ensure that the online data was not over-representing females, which often occurs with online surveys.


fuad

It doesn't matter whether you were #1 or #16. The units are first-come, first-serve to preorder customers on launch day. If they sold 16 preorders, but only receive 8 PS3s, then the first 8 preorder customers to hit the store on launch day will get the boxes.

My manager at EBgames confirmed for me multiple times the exact opposite.

and how many millions of people trying to buy the 353,200 units ???

A repeat post, in case you missed it. From Reuters: (http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyID=2006-10-10T232515Z_01_N10356346_RTRIDST_0_TECH-MEDIA-GAMESTOP-PLAYSTATION3-COL.XML)

So that makes it 46,800 units for GameStop at most (13x3600). 353,200 launch units to go! :cool:


fuad

PS3 price drop??

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009VXAM0/102-3277248-6751358

That must be a typo.

My manager at EBgames confirmed for me multiple times the exact opposite.Unfortunately, your manager was wrong.

Better get to EBGames early on November 27, particularly if there are any reports or rumors on shortages.

Unfortunately, your manager was wrong.

Better get to EBGames early on November 27, particularly if there are any reports or rumors on shortages.


Has there been a delay? Or you just want him to show up late? :D

PS3 price drop??

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009VXAM0/102-3277248-6751358

There are specultaions going on as to whether they are typos or not at gaming sites. For example,
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123582

Infamously flammable Japanese chat site "2channel" is also doing "matsuri" on this news. Few actually think these are typos there. In other words, most believe these will be the real prices, given that Sony had previously slashed the price of the 20GB model in Japan (to $425).

Time will tell.

All right. These were typos. Amazon changed them.

Has there been a delay? Or you just want him to show up late?:D

Hey guys - just a heads up. I have a friend that has gotten to play around with the PS3 w/ a BD movie - do not expect an in depth analysis here, he works for Sony and it is not his duty to take pics or do full reviews of the unit, but I will post what I find out and if you want to ask specific questions I can see if he will answer them (no promises).

Regarding over heating
Couple of things...

One - It's freeking quiet!!!!! I have been running that movie all day (TV is off, I can only take so much of that douche) and I forgot it was even on.

Two - It doesn't over heat, which isn't to say the exhaust isn't blowing hot air (it's pretty damn hot to the touch at the exhaust ports but not hot enough to burn or combust anything) again running all day and I can touch the exhaust port without getting burned.

Three - This thing looks great but is pretty damn heavy. About 15lbs.
Regarding BD playback...
Using the unit to play BD was really no different than using a DVD player, it took maybe a full 30 seconds from after I turned it on before I had the movie started (exluding initial set up). There is a really cool thing when watching a movie and that is you can get back to the movie menu while the movie is running so if you want to jump to a different scene in the middle of the action you don't have to stop the movie and go to the menu, it comes up around what's playing. You can also bring up the controls while it's playing and they "ghost" on the screen.

I was playing it on a regular TV but if given the chance in the next few weeks I'm going to try to sneak it home and play something on my 1080i and see how it looks. The movies we have aren't that great in HD but I hear the BR version of Blackhawk Down is supposed to be incredible. We have a 1080p 46" flat screen Sony at work and once that kind of quality movie comes in I'll do some comparisons.

Have at it...

Does he know if it does 1080p24?

Thanks

...There is a really cool thing when watching a movie and that is you can get back to the movie menu while the movie is running so if you want to jump to a different scene in the middle of the action you don't have to stop the movie and go to the menu, it comes up around what's playing. You can also bring up the controls while it's playing and they "ghost" on the screen.

Huh? Isn't that supposed to happen on a DVD player when you press the menu button while a movie is playing? I've never had to press stop then press menu to get to my menu screen on any of the DVD players I've ever owned.

Huh? Isn't that supposed to happen on a DVD player when you press the menu button while a movie is playing? I've never had to press stop then press menu to get to my menu screen on any of the DVD players I've ever owned.

no he means the new interactive layer for both formats allows you to access the menus without stopping playback. they are overlayed on top of the movie as it continues playback. it's rather slick and I like it a great deal actually. CC on HD DVD is pretty cool too as you get the heads of the actors along with the dialog so you know who is saying what. neat stuff.

Also, can you ask him what outputs the AV multi out provides?

thanks

Also, can you ask him what outputs the AV multi out provides?I have heard that AV multi-out cables for the PS2 can also be used for the PS3.

The port looks exactly the same as other PS' systems. Should be ok.

I meant what can you get from the multi out? Two channel RCA? 5.1 channel mini-jack? Component? svideo? composite? (Not that those last 2 are important to me, just that I want to know what connections I get out of the thing).

Thanks

Component, S-Video, Composite, 2 channel sound from the proprietary...but there is an optical out and HDMI as well so...

thanks. I've been holding out hope that they would make the multi out support 5.1.

Hey guys - just a heads up. I have a friend that has gotten to play around with the PS3 w/ a BD movie - do not expect an in depth analysis here, he works for Sony and it is not his duty to take pics or do full reviews of the unit, but I will post what I find out and if you want to ask specific questions I can see if he will answer them (no promises).



I'd like to know if it supports 1080p24 output, and if the "Custom" resolution option we have seen in the cross media bar demo can be used to set output to 1360x768 or 1366x768.
Thanks

Oh - and it's all free, too. The only place you'll be asked to fork over a penny is when you purchase something in the PlayStation Store - all of the online services, from sign-up right through to voice and video chat, are free, as is normal multiplayer gaming.

All of Playstations 3 online features are free unlike the xbox360!
http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=68677

That right there is a main reason I would buy it over an xbox360!

Free doesn't necessarily mean better. I guess some lucky people will find out in a month. Most of us will have to wait until next year.

Oh don't worry, Sony has plans to sell plenty of stuff online. You don't think they amassed that huge software library for nothing do you?

So does anybody know what the video quality with a Blu Ray movie is like? Particularly over component? The suspense is killing me!

It depends on the movie.

A good movie! :)

EDIT: If the PS3 is going to have average picture quality over component I wont bother getting it. But if it can rival my Toshiba HD A1 with Blu Ray play back then I might get one!

Free doesn't necessarily mean better. I guess some lucky people will find out in a month. Most of us will have to wait until next year.

I choose the pc online games anyday over the xbox live ones, and the pc online its free...exept the MMO's. Also the reviews about the ps3 online has been great so far.

My bad.

Double post.

anyone know where I can buy a remote for the ps3 bd player. Or does it come with it? I don't really want to use the controller as the remote.

anyone know where I can buy a remote for the ps3 bd player. Or does it come with it? I don't really want to use the controller as the remote.
I believe they are using a Bluetooth remote available as an accessory. I'm pretty sure EB/GS will have them. My guy said they'd have the SKU's on the accessories soon (maybe already have them by now, this was last week), so you'd be able to preorder them if you wanted.

i'll check 'em out. thanks.

dante-what reviews about online gaming? I haven't seen anything, can you post a link as I'd love to read about real world online mp review for the ps3.

Unfortunately, your manager was wrong.

Better get to EBGames early on November 27, particularly if there are any reports or rumors on shortages.

WRONG. If you are preorder #1 then you will get the 1st PS3 in the door......whether you are there at midnight or not. They will hold it for you for up to 24 hrs...after that it goes to the next person on the list who didn't get one.

If you are worried just call Gamestop corp customer service....they'll explain the same thing. This poster doesn't have a clue.

Yea but what if there are more pre-orders than systems? I'd be getting in early. :)

anyone know where I can buy a remote for the ps3 bd player. Or does it come with it? I don't really want to use the controller as the remote.

Look back at post #727 for a photo of the PS3 accessory remote for the BD player functions. It should be available in December (by one report).

Ron Jones

Unfortunately, your manager was wrong.

Better get to EBGames early on November 27, particularly if there are any reports or rumors on shortages.

If afraid that if you show on Nov. 27 you will come away empty handed in any case, but at least you shouldn't need to stand in line since this is 10 days after the PS3 goes on sale. The US introduction is Nov. 17th.

Ron Jones

Anyone know of a company doing anything like an IR extender for the PS3? Bluetooth is extremely useless as a Remote Control option when everything I have is in a closet fed by IR.

I would just use the controller. The can go stick that remote where the sun don't shine.

so no 5.1 analog outs?

so no 5.1 analog outs?
I believe the 5.1 out will be going thru the HDMI 1.3.

I believe the 5.1 out will be going thru the HDMI 1.3.

Correct, actually it goes up to 7.1 uncompressed audio. 2 PS3 games so far will be using that as well :)

ok, useless for me.
dont have a reciever that can take that

I've yet to hear if the multi av out will have DD 5.1 coaxial. I'm out of opticals.

I've yet to hear if the multi av out will have DD 5.1 coaxial. I'm out of opticals.It's built into the unit itself.

I've yet to hear if the multi av out will have DD 5.1 coaxial. I'm out of opticals.
Always support the AVSF advertisers! (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10423&cs_id=1042302&p_id=2948&seq=1&format=2&style=) :D :D

http://images.monoprice.com/productlargeimages/29481.jpg


fuad

It's built into the unit itself. I doubt the MultiOut will have coaxial digital out.


fuad

THIS IS SEX!!!

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20061017/ps301.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20061017/ps302.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20061017/ps313.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20061017/ps305.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20061017/ps306.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20061017/ps308.jpg

THIS IS SEX!!!

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20061017/ps301.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20061017/ps302.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20061017/ps313.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20061017/ps305.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20061017/ps306.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20061017/ps308.jpg


The article on that page stated that load time was in the 10 second vicinity, far less than BD and HD-DVD stand alone players currently out. :)

Side note on the PS3, replacing the harddrive. Anyone heard if you can just buy a 160GB and replace it with the one in there yourself?

It's about time now that we get some actual movie playback reviews of it!!!!

Side note on the PS3, replacing the harddrive. Anyone heard if you can just buy a 160GB and replace it with the one in there yourself?

It's about time now that we get some actual movie playback reviews of it!!!!

Supposed to be a standard 2.5" SATA drive.

Right. But can we assume that all the OS stuff is not on the HD, so if you put in a new drive, the system will just say "Press X to format drive" instead of "Error reading drive"..?

According to:

Sony at

us playstation com (Can't post URLs yet)

Question #8

PLAYSTATION®3 hard disk drive is removable and upgradable. You can upgrade the drive by removing the hard drive and replacing it with a larger capacity drive.

upgradeable, but with one they sell you or an off the shelf drive? They have hinted at the latter, but I guess we will have to wait and see. I do wonder about the question of the OS/shared applications, how would you transfer them to the new drive or are they all contained in non volitile memory somewhere in the electronics (and could reinstall themselves accordingly onto a blank drive)?

upgradeable, but with one they sell you or an off the shelf drive? They have hinted at the latter, but I guess we will have to wait and see. I do wonder about the question of the OS/shared applications, how would you transfer them to the new drive or are they all contained in non volitile memory somewhere in the electronics (and could reinstall themselves accordingly onto a blank drive)?

Unless they changed their plans they said it can be one of your chosing.

Excellent! Good news indeed!

Unless they changed their plans they said it can be one of your chosing.

yes, I think I remember kuratagi saying something to that effect in the pre-launch hype, but I'll wait and see what the logistics of really doing that happen to be. It's not like they give you an OS install disk or a copy of a ghosting program with the PS3 or anything...

You guys have been missing the big picture. Really.

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20061017/ps305.jpg
This is the side pix of what formats the PS3 is supporting. It is full of logos we've come to expect.

http://www.mydigital.it/immagini%20articoli/divxdvd/dvd-logo.png
This is the logo for DVD-Video.

http://www.jvc.co.jp/english/car/asia/dna/img/logo_dvd_audio_video.gif
However, I think this is the logo that is used on the PS3.
:cool: :D :cool: :D :cool: :D


fuad

Edit: Okay, having access to official photos of the PS3, I can say that the PS3 does not do DVD-Audio. The DVD logo merely says "Video/ROM". Oh well.

You guys have been missing the big picture. Really.

Well the "logos" look impressive, now how's the softwae (i.e. the movies)...

I guess in a few weeks there will be alot of SACD players out there. Will it revive the format?

I guess in a few weeks there will be alot of SACD players out there. Will it revive the format? How can it be revived when it was hardly promoted to begin with? Unfair really, because Elton John SACDs are SUPERB!

However, you're still not seeing the big picture. Look again. Or should I spell it out? :cool:


fuad

They were promoting it for a while. I liked SACD over DVD-A since alot of the discs had a CD layer also. I have around 30 titles but I haven't bought any in a long time. If they would start pushing it again I would definitely buy some more.

but does it have 5.1 analog outs

Okay, having access to official photos of the PS3, I can say that the PS3 does not do DVD-Audio. The DVD logo merely says "Video/ROM". Oh well.


fuad

the AV Multiout is identical to the PS2 one

but does it have 5.1 analog outsNo, but it probably can deliver SACD audio over HDMI as either very high quality PCM or as DSD. Personally I don't see SACD becoming big because of the popularity of online music sales/downloads.

not worried about sacd

lossless audio for br movies is my concern.

A bit of bad news:

Apparently, the PS3 will not upscale regular DVDs.

(IGN mentions it on the fourth page of their look at the PS3 menu.

Edit: sorry for the link, but I obviously can not post them until I reach five posts.

A bit of bad news:

Apparently, the PS3 will not upscale regular DVDs.

(IGN mentions it on the fourth page of their look at the PS3 menu.

Edit: sorry for the link, but I obviously can not post them until I reach five posts.


Here is the link and the quote:

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/740/740601p4.html

On a down note, SCE informed us that DVD upscaling was not part of the PS3 multimedia feature set. The Xbox 360 upscales DVDs, so it's surprising to see SCE go without the feature.

They also said ps3 would not upscale ps2/ps1 games and then post a retraction as follows
"ED. NOTE - IGN previously reported that SCE had confirmed an omission of upscaling features. We have since checked our interview notes and have found that the comment that led to this report was more vague than we understood at the time -- SCEA President Kaz Hirai commented that backwards-compatible games will "run in their original form", which does not specify exactly whether display adjustments do not fit the "original form." We apologize for the confusion, and will ask SCE as soon as possible for clarification. Please stop posting on message boards that "SONY SUX" for the time being."

I'd wait for more info on dvd upscale.

Sony also wants an extra $49 for the HDMI cables. They will not even be shipping the PS3
with component cables.

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35240

I wonder if the gamers will spend the money immediately just to play the included movie in HD?

you can just use a component cable from your ps2. You think sony is ripping you off. Nintendo is charging 250bux basially a last gen xbox and also charging 30bux for component cables and you can only order them online.

Has Sony cut back on shipments of the PS3 again?
I'm hearing 1 million by years end. Wasn't it supposed to be 2 mil?

Sony also wants an extra $49 for the HDMI cables. They will not even be shipping the PS3
with component cables.

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35240

I wonder if the gamers will spend the money immediately just to play the included movie in HD?


They will go to monoprice for their cable if they dont have one already.

Has Sony cut back on shipments of the PS3 again?
I'm hearing 1 million by years end. Wasn't it supposed to be 2 mil?

LOL one million? That's a good one :) 400K... could be less!

A bit of bad news:

Apparently, the PS3 will not upscale regular DVDs.

(IGN mentions it on the fourth page of their look at the PS3 menu.

Edit: sorry for the link, but I obviously can not post them until I reach five posts.

That is a big downer. I thought the PS3 was supposed to be an all-in-one everything-you-need 1080p set top box. The lack of DVD scaling is a big negative from my perspective. I wonder if Sony did this just to make BluRay discs look like more of an improvement. What is more likely, however, is that Sony disabled this scaling feature so that the PS3 wouldn't directly compete with their high end Blu-Ray player just now coming out.

LOL one million? That's a good one :) 400K... could be less!

Incorrect.

400K is the launch day number. Sony is still saying 1.2 million by year end (yes this is down from the original 2 million, but there has not been another reduction, just one.

Well, looks like it's down to 1 mil. according to this story:
http://www.homemediaretailing.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?sec_id=2&&article_ID=9818

A bit of bad news:

Apparently, the PS3 will not upscale regular DVDs.

(IGN mentions it on the fourth page of their look at the PS3 menu.

Edit: sorry for the link, but I obviously can not post them until I reach five posts.

Well this sucks. I never really done much research on the ps3 upscalling but I just assumed it would upscale. I've been hesitating for 2 months to buy an upscalling player. I guess I'm going to have to buy one after all.

not worried about sacd

lossless audio for br movies is my concern.

Well the PS3 has the ability to decode it and it will not be crippled on it's way out either :D

At the very least, the lack of upscaling could be fixed by a firmware upgrade in the fututre.

Also, the 1 million PS3s scheduled by the end of the year are for North America. The goal of 2 million that was mentioned was for worldwide shpments.

At the very least, the lack of upscaling could be fixed by a firmware upgrade in the fututre.

Also, the 1 million PS3s scheduled by the end of the year are for North America. The goal of 2 million that was mentioned was for worldwide shpments.

With Sony's BD player with upscalling and already existing upscalling dvd player.. i don't think sony will want to update the ps3 because they won't make any money off it.. They know we'll want to buy one anyways

With Sony's BD player with upscalling and already existing upscalling dvd player.. i don't think sony will want to update the ps3 because they won't make any money off it.. They know we'll want to buy one anyways
SCE can let the PS3 upconvert and the unit can do that flawlessly as none of the upconverting DVD players have the Cell to process it. The decision to not upconvert may be a tactical decision and could be added to via a firmware update.

As far as having other upconverting players, it's product differentiation. Even if the PS3 is an excellent BD player, some people won't use it as their primary BD unit precisel because "it is a game console". That's their prerogative. So enabling upconvertion would not do anything to get more people to buy the PS3.

As far as the 2 million units downscaled to 1 million, I think U Gamer X got it right. After all, 600K units for launch with 400K units going to NAmerica. So that's 200K for the Japanese gamers, which are their strongest supporters. If SCEJ don't give more units for the Japanese market, there is going to be fighting on the streets. :cool:


fuad

I'd think the cell would do an amazing job upconverting and it surely MUST be a possibility. But when I think about it, this makes perfect sense for Sony to intentionally handicap this player. Recent statements about it being primarily a game and movie playpack as an aside tells me Sony doesn't want the PS3 being used only as a blu-ray player. Obviously the must lose more money that way.
Sony stock took another hit today, and more doubt they'll reach their 2 mil target with "production issues"
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aFlCbcejTr_M&refer=home

Sony also wants an extra $49 for the HDMI cables. They will not even be shipping the PS3
with component cables.

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35240

I wonder if the gamers will spend the money immediately just to play the included movie in HD? From HomeMediaRetailing.com (http://www.homemediaretailing.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?sec_id=2&&article_ID=9818) The PS3 HDMI cable will cost $50, although it is included in the $600 PS3 package, and any standard HDMI cable should work with the console. Another reason to get the US$600 package if only to get a Sony-brand HDMI cable; some people are brand obsessed that way.

If you're getting the lower end package, go get your US$8 Monoprice HDMI cables right now. Get those optical/TOSLINK cables too!


fuad

Quick question. Isn't SACD usually outputed through 6 analog channels. Is there another way to output the full SACD bandwidth? How do we expect it to be outputed on the PS3?

Quick question. Isn't SACD usually outputed through 6 analog channels. Is there another way to output the full SACD bandwidth? How do we expect it to be outputed on the PS3? Via the MultiOut, you can get 2-channel analog out. If you want 5.1 or if you want the DSD bitstream to remain intact until it reaches the DSD-capable receiver, you need to use the HDMI output.

You can listen to SACD in 5.1 in two ways: let the PS3 decode the DSD bistream then converting it to PCM and then passing it through HDMI; or let the PS3 pass the DSD bitstream undecoded to a DSD-capable receiver through HDMI.


fuad

Is it confirmed that the PS3 will not upscale standard DVDs?

Is it possible that was a misquote or is it confirmed.

I would want the PS3 to be as good as the HD DVD players on their upscaling of SD DVDs.

Has it been confirmed that the PS3 will output the native 1080p24 from BD? Can't seem to find anything definitive.

Has it been confirmed that the PS3 will output the native 1080p24 from BD? Can't seem to find anything definitive. That is tricky to find, since most gaming sites and mags would probably not have a 1080p24 display or projection unit, and the PS3 will be primarily reviewed by them first. You can only do 1080p via HDMI and after that you can custom select your display settings so if they don't have it, they don't know what it can or cannot do.

And by the way, I don't work with or for Sony, Sony PE nor SCEA. :p


fuad

The Sony and Pioneer players are supposed to output native 1080p/24, so one would hope Sony didn't drop it from the PS3 spec. sheet.

If they had really wanted to make this thing shine it would have included full 8 channel decoding of TrueHD and DTS Master Audio and had 8 analog RCA outputs. But then who knows if the price would have been jacked up even more.

Dan

Has it been confirmed that the PS3 will output the native 1080p24 from BD? Can't seem to find anything definitive.It may at some point in the future, if demand warrants, but it won't at release.

Remember, the PS3 is first and a foremost a game machine. It is not a Blu-ray player that also supports games. For that reason, you shouldn't expect all the bells and whistles of dedicated, high-end players. Sony will use the hardware it has, so I expect DVD upscaling at release or soon thereafter, but they will not rush to implement any features that could add unnecessary complexity (i.e. hurt usability for their typical ~16yo customer).


If they had really wanted to make this thing shine it would have included full 8 channel decoding of TrueHD and DTS Master Audio and had 8 analog RCA outputs.That would have required 8x 24/196 DACs, obviously a non-starter for cost reasons.

http://gamepro.com/sony/ps3/games/features/84257.shtml

^^
Good read, but the best part of it might be this:



The PS3 is not just a cheap Blu-ray player

Nothing about the unit looks or feels cheap. The build quality of the console itself seems to be sturdy and substantial. The familiar red and blue/green LED lights, which indicate the system status, make a return from the PS2, but look more slick and futuristic. There are also tiny "feet" on the unit's left side -- handy for standing it in a stable vertical position. And the chrome trim is a surprisingly cool bonus on the $599 premium model, for purely aesthetic reasons.


:)

Eh. I would prefer no silver trim on the high end PS3, but I'll get it anyway. ;)

There's no way the PS3 would have included a high end upscaler at it's price point and my HDTV upscales and deinterlaces anyway (same reason I've not bothered with an upscaling player yet), so this is a non-issue for me either way. I tend to disable progressive scan on DVD players and would likely disable any upscaling anyway if possible ,since I can adjust the upscaling/deinterlacing on the HDTV to my taste, according to the content, and I know the behavior of the various modes, etc.

One idea I'm sure that could have been brought up before... just imagine if the BDP-S1 could also play PS3 games. Sony could have the "game console that is also a (low end) Blu-ray player" and could also have the "(High end) Blu-ray player that is also a game console." Just use PS3 bluetooth controllers, etc. I'd certainly then change my intent from the PS3 premium to such a device.

Is there anywhere to still order the PS3 w/out having to stand in line for hours?

You might try Amazon if they do the same thing as they did with the 360 last year. The units went for sale on the day of release and you just had to be lucky enough to buy it at the right time. That's how I got my 360 last year and I had overnight shipping for free so I got it the next day. I'm going to try Amazon again for the PS3 this year but I'm not very optomistic.

Is there anywhere to still order the PS3 w/out having to stand in line for hours?EBGames is expected to do a PS3 bundle preorder in a few days. I believe the bundle price was ~$900 for the basic PS3 plus an extra controller and three preselected games, with the premium available for about $100 more.

Do not expect any more preorders of standalone PS3s between now and November 17.

There's no way the PS3 would have included a high end upscaler at it's price point and my HDTV upscales and deinterlaces anyway (same reason I've not bothered with an upscaling player yet), so this is a non-issue for me either way, since I tend to disable progressive scan and would likely disable any upscaling anyway, if possible since I can adjust the upscaling/deinterlacing on the HDTV to my taste, according to the content.The PS3 includes a graphics chip from nVidia, which is more than capable of quality DVD playback and upscaling -- just see the HTPC forum. Decoding and upscaling probably wouldn't equal a solution based on a Genuum or Silicon Optix Realta, but it could come pretty close.

It has been confirmed by SONY that the PS3 will not upscale DVDs. I was just about to be disapointed by this but then I realised that the DVD player is region locked anyway, and since I will import a US PS3 and only have PAL dvds it would have been useless for me anyway.

Besides with Linux installed on the machine and homebrew dvd players I will get both upscaling and region free dvd playback not long after launch.

It has been confirmed by SONY that the PS3 will not upscale DVDs. I was just about to be disapointed by this but then I realised that the DVD player is region locked anyway, and since I will import a US PS3 and only have PAL dvds it would have been useless for me anyway.

Besides with Linux installed on the machine and homebrew dvd players I will get both upscaling and region free dvd playback not long after launch.Really? No upscaling even over HDMI?

Really? No upscaling even over HDMI? Yep.

Is there any technical reason that the PS3 will not upscale standard DVDs?

Or is the only reason a marketing one that Sony is afraid that the capability to upscale DVDs could possibly confuse consumers, as they might not see the difference between upscaled DVDs and Blu-ray disc image quality. Is there another reason to leave this capablity to upconvert out of the PS3 except to encourage consumers to buy more Blu-ray discs which look better compared to standard DVD than an upconverted DVD would?

Is this a difficult capabilty to add, or does the PS3 silicon not support it? Could it be added at a future date through firmware? Is it a case that SOny did not have enough time to test this capability?

Is there any technical reason that the PS3 will not upscale standard DVDs?Kosty, considering that their are no Sony insiders in this thread what exactly are you expecting in terms of an answer besides opinions? In fact I notice you keep repeating pointing this issue out in various threads.


Or is the only reason a marketing one that Sony is afraid that the capability to upscale DVDs could possibly confuse consumers, as they might not see the difference between upscaled DVDs and Blu-ray disc image quality.BS, and Kosty as much as you might dislike Blu-ray even you know that their are some great looking Blu-ray discs that have been released. Also just to point out the obvious but the Xbox 360 couldn't upscale DVDs when it was first released and I don't remember people assuming the worst about Microsoft because of that.

Kosty, I answered these questions thoroughly in another thread.Is there any technical reason that the PS3 will not upscale standard DVDs?None whatsoever.
Or is the only reason a marketing one that Sony is afraid that the capability to upscale DVDs could possibly confuse consumers, as they might not see the difference between upscaled DVDs and Blu-ray disc image quality.Absurd reasoning.
Is there another reason to leave this capablity to upconvert out of the PS3 except to encourage consumers to buy more Blu-ray discs which look better compared to standard DVD than an upconverted DVD would?Because they want the buyers of this to consume PS3 games and Blu-ray titles. GIven that they'll sell every PS3 they can manufacture, there's no reason to make it a better DVD player.
Is this a difficult capabilty to add, or does the PS3 silicon not support it? Could it be added at a future date through firmware?Of course it can. Incidentally, according to other posters here, the Xbox 360 didn't support DVD upscaling until a firmware upgrade subsequent to release.

While I would like to see how the PS3 performs the upconversion of DVDs, I'm not too worried. Why? Because right out of the box, the PS3 that will be available until March 2007 will be Region A for BD and Region 1/2 for DVD. The region coding for DVD is not hacked so that pretty much leaves it as a dedicated R1/2 player.

I already have a multiregion player that upconverts, so I'm not too worried. It's also a universal player so it takes care of my SACD and DVD-Audio needs. :cool:


fuad

Talkstr8t, since you are a BD insider, do you know if the PS3 can output 1080p24 for movies?
(Sorry if you already answered this question.)

Do not expect any more preorders of standalone PS3s between now and November 17.

You can take this with a grain of salt, however members at Gamespot are claiming that Toys R Us are accepting preorders on Oct. 29th (sunday). Call your local one and ask is all I can tell you.

You can take this with a grain of salt, however members at Gamespot are claiming that Toys R Us are accepting preorders on Oct. 29th (sunday). Call your local one and ask is all I can tell you.Note the standalone part of my statement.

Hasn't Toys 'R Us typically done bundle preorders for new game systems?

Talkstr8t, since you are a BD insider, do you know if the PS3 can output 1080p24 for movies?Sorry, unless/until Sony announces support for this I can't confirm anything. Based on the PS3's hardware specs, however, I think it would be reasonable to assume it could support it should Sony choose to enable it.

I agree that the PS3 will help grow the Blu-Ray format. Sony will have to produce more units if they hope to gain placement in the market. With only 70,000 units to be shipped for the holidays; this may hurt Sony. Then again. This may cause more of a buzz and free advertising on the news of the high anticipation for the new consoles. Supposedly Sony will not have another shipment due to arrive in the US until March of 2007. I am glad I purchased 55 of these units in advance. May work out to be a great investment. I will definitely keep one for myself. I would like to see how it looks on my Barco 1208. Just have to get a HDMI to VGA conversion box. Or Component to VGA. Can't wait!!

Does the PS3 have all the built in audio decoders, analogue out puts like the bdp-s1? And will it have hdmi 1.3???

I agree that the PS3 will help grow the Blu-Ray format. Sony will have to produce more units if they hope to gain placement in the market. With only 70,000 units to be shipped for the holidays; this may hurt Sony.It is 400,000 and that is just the PS3 launch shipment shipment for NA. Unless Sony has more problems with supplies I expect that at least 1 million PS3s in total will ship this year in NA.


Supposedly Sony will not have another shipment due to arrive in the US until March of 2007.Don't know where you heard that from but that is most likely wrong since their is no reason to delay shipments for a given date. Your probably thinking about the expected launch of PS3 for Europe which is currently planned for March of next year.


I am glad I purchased 55 of these units in advance. May work out to be a great investment.Did you mean to type 5?


Does the PS3 have all the built in audio decoders, analogue out puts like the bdp-s1?It can decode Dolby TrueHD, DD, and DTS but it requires an HDMI connection to output Dolby TrueHD as PCM. As for the analog outputs they will most likely be stereo only on the PS3.


And will it have hdmi 1.3???Yes.

I guess I'll have to wait till next year when I get my SXRD to really care about 1080p.

I've heard people say the ps3 will be a cheap or downgraded bluray player. Can someone please explain how this works. I'm buying a ps3 mainly because it's the least expensive br player but I'll be disappointed if it doesn't display true bluray quality. Besides gaming, what's the difference between the ps3 and a standalone br player? Thanks.

I've heard people say the ps3 will be a cheap or downgraded bluray player. Can someone please explain how this works. I'm buying a ps3 mainly because it's the least expensive br player but I'll be disappointed if it doesn't display true bluray quality. Besides gaming, what's the difference between the ps3 and a standalone br player? Thanks.

It'll display it - don't sweat it. In fact, I imagine it's PQ and audio characteristics will be among the best.

Where you will have to make compromises though will be in DVD upscaling (supposedly won't support it), and the bluetooth remote vs universal integration.

I'm not getting it because it's a BD player myself - but it will be my BD player. In addition to the bonus Talladega movie being thrown in, I expect to come home with Kingdom of Heaven that day.

Well, I wouldn't expect its PQ and audio to be among the best by a long shot, they'll save that for their $1000+ flagship BR players. Adequate is probably a better way to describe it. Plus, you wont be able to integrate it into your universal remote (last time I checked).

Its already painful for Sony that they are giving away a free BR player with every PS3 GAME system sold, I wouldn't expect it to be anything more than adequate at playing back movies.

Last time I checked the PS3 didn't have any 5.1 or 7.1 analog outputs correct? So forget TrueHD or other uncomplressed audio formats...still I'm sure it'll be good enough for all the people hooking them up to "BIG" Tv's like 42 and 50 inchers :D

PS3 DOES support TruHD, etc it DOES deliever 7.1 uncompressed ;)

Yeah? It has the analog outs or some kinda dongle or something? Oh, I consider myself skooled :) I didn't think it could do that. Neet.

Hdmi 1.3, which is also BC

At least 2 games will be supporting 7.1 uncompressed audio as well, Lair and Resistance :D

The PS3 will be HDMI 1.2a at release, and will be updated at some later time to HDMI 1.3. It is pure speculation as to when that will happen.

The PS3 will be HDMI 1.2a at release, and will be updated at some later time to HDMI 1.3. It is pure speculation as to when that will happen.

Do you have any links with some concrete info on this? I've read a few different things but nothing from Sony stating it will not be 1.3. One of which is it is 1.2a with some 1.3 parts (but not all) yet still capable of 7.1 lossless.

Hdmi 1.3, which is also BC

At least 2 games will be supporting 7.1 uncompressed audio as well, Lair and Resistance :D

While that is definitely cool and exciting, I have to wonder how many people realize that they need a fairly new HDMI capable receiver in order to benefit from it. Not to mention an 8 speaker surround setup.

I would venture to guess that the vast majority of PS3 buyers won't have the proper audio equipment to take advantage of it. Maybe Sony is counting on the PS3 to increase the sales of their new AVRs :rolleyes:

While that is definitely cool and exciting, I have to wonder how many people realize that they need a fairly new HDMI capable receiver in order to benefit from it. Not to mention an 8 speaker surround setup.

I would venture to guess that the vast majority of PS3 buyers won't have the proper audio equipment to take advantage of it. Maybe Sony is counting on the PS3 to increase the sales of their new AVRs :rolleyes:

I didn't even have surround sound when I first started watching DVD's, I was happy that the hardware had the ability once I upgrade my HT gear though ;)

Well PS3 is leading the way, no doubt about that with it's HDMI abilities. And yes I will not have a receiver right away that can take advantage. I am excited that the PS3 is future proofed to that extent for when the time comes :)

Of course you have the choice not go cutting edge, but it's nice to have the choice to do it in the future if desired. For me being a fan of high quality audio and video that is better than not having the choice :D

Do you have any links with some concrete info on this? I've read a few different things but nothing from Sony stating it will not be 1.3. One of which is it is 1.2a with some 1.3 parts (but not all) yet still capable of 7.1 lossless.The PS3 uses a HDMI 1.3 part from Silicon Image, but doesn't yet support most of the new features in its software. You can't just stick a HDMI 1.3 chip in a product and get the new features. The software has to be written to take advantage of it. The PS3 is capable of supporting all HDMI 1.3 functionality with a future software update.

In this case, the Sony PS3 doesn't yet support the output of Dolby Digital Plus, TrueHD, or DTS-HD over HDMI, although it will decode DD+ and TrueHD and output the unpacked LPCM audio over HDMI to a HDMI 1.1+ receiver, exactly like existing HD-DVD players.

The PS3 uses a HDMI 1.3 part from Silicon Image, but doesn't yet support most of the new features in its software. You can't just stick a HDMI 1.3 chip in a product and get the new features. The software has to be written to take advantage of it. The PS3 is capable of supporting all HDMI 1.3 functionality with a future software update.

In this case, the Sony PS3 doesn't yet support the output of Dolby Digital Plus, TrueHD, or DTS-HD over HDMI, although it will decode DD+ and TrueHD and output the unpacked LPCM audio over HDMI to a HDMI 1.1+ receiver, exactly like existing HD-DVD players.

Do you have any links where we can read up on this?

While that is definitely cool and exciting, I have to wonder how many people realize that they need a fairly new HDMI capable receiver in order to benefit from it. Not to mention an 8 speaker surround setup.

I would venture to guess that the vast majority of PS3 buyers won't have the proper audio equipment to take advantage of it. Maybe Sony is counting on the PS3 to increase the sales of their new AVRs :rolleyes: Fairly new receiver, yes. Expensive, well not really. You can get a US$250-300 Panasonic HDMI 1.2 receiver now - 1.2 is enough to deliver TrueHD decoded, SACD DSD-converted-to-LPCM, DVD-Audio and DTS HD. Check out Yamaha for 7.1 HDMI receivers.

The fact is that Blu-ray's audio capabilities will be driving sales of most AVR manufacturers.


fuad

Fairly new receiver, yes. Expensive, well not really. You can get a US$250-300 Panasonic HDMI 1.2 receiver now - 1.2 is enough to deliver TrueHD decoded, SACD DSD-converted-to-LPCM, DVD-Audio and DTS HD. Check out Yamaha for 7.1 HDMI receivers.

The fact is that Blu-ray's audio capabilities will be driving sales of most AVR manufacturers.


fuad

Great, thanks for the info :)

Well, I wouldn't expect its PQ and audio to be among the best by a long shot, they'll save that for their $1000+ flagship BR players. Adequate is probably a better way to describe it. Plus, you wont be able to integrate it into your universal remote (last time I checked).

Well, the remote thing I already commented on. ;)

As for the video and audio quality, here's my take on it. The hardware in the system is clearly up to the task of putting out the best of the best, it's simply going to be a matter of the effort SCE dedicates towards writing decode algorithms for Cell in terms of what image gets output.

Now, I'm not saying that they will put a lot of effort into it, but nor do I think they will purposefully cripple it to satisfy some other part of Sony; Ken Kutaragi is too proud for that.

It's not that I'm against the notion that there may not be something better out there upon PS3's release, but I also think that as time goes on, better decode algorithms will be implemented via firmware updates (which will be happening semi-regularly anyway).

Fairly new receiver, yes. Expensive, well not really. You can get a US$250-300 Panasonic HDMI 1.2 receiver now - 1.2 is enough to deliver TrueHD decoded, SACD DSD-converted-to-LPCM, DVD-Audio and DTS HD. Check out Yamaha for 7.1 HDMI receivers.

The fact is that Blu-ray's audio capabilities will be driving sales of most AVR manufacturers.


fuad


I guess I'm just disappointed that 6.1 or 7.1 audio via analogue connections is not an option for the PS3 since many people probably already have receivers that support that connectivity. Don't get me wrong, I know that the Xbox 360 and the HD DVD addon are even more limited audio-wise since it offers neither HDMI nor analouge connections. I also realize that analouge isn't quite as good as HDMI, but I think it should have been an option for BC purposes.

Forgive me for going off-topic for a minute.....

I bought a new receiver about a year ago and it already seems to be obsolete since it doesn't have HDMI connectivity :(
I really would like to get a new receiver, but the constantly evolving HDMI specs and some of the things I've read about certain receivers having HDMI issues has me scared. I think I'll wait.

Dude, dont get caught up in the hype of receiver switching and always chasing the next big thing....3/4 of the hype around new standards always turns out to be ******** anyhow.

TRUEHD was one of the recent rages.....then someone discovered that a full bandwidth DDPlus soundtrack was essentially identical, near losless.....so now TrueHD isn't as big of a deal...its always a game of upgrades...many with questionable benefit (5.1 to 6.1 to 7.1, for example.....know why they did that? So they can sell more receivers by convincing you that "more speakers is better").....

First everyone went out and bought HDMI-Switching Receivers. Then..."AWWWW!" They all cried foul when HDMI Went to 1.2, NOW they're doing it again with 1.3.

Then, people will get 1.3 receivers...and you'll start hearing the reports of, say, "The receiver is crushing blacks when I use it as a switch" or "Its messing up the dynamics of the audio!", and then people will be waiting for the model with the revision inside and....

...on and on it goes :)

Just enjoy what you have, or else you'll *always* be chasing the next big thing.

I'm still using my Marantz SR7000 from 1998...its 5.1..DD and DTS...has 5.1 analog inputs, seriously, what the hell more could you ask for. I bought an external component switch, and I'll probably have to buy an HDMI switch...but a few hundred for a good HDMI switch is nothing compared to the $1000+ I'd need to spend on a quality receiver that also did HDMI switching.

Enjoy what you have. Upgrade only when absolutely necessary.

I think I'll wait. Good decision. What HeadRusch is saying is true as well; you don't want to be buying CHEAP but BUGGY HDMI 1.0/1 receivers. But the US$250-300 from Panasonic would be a good buy since it's a new implementation of 1.2. It won't decode the advance codecs but at least it gives you a clean digital 5.1-7.1 LPCM input via HDMI.

Coming back to waiting, if you can wait then wait especially if the receiver is working great, you like the sound and it's not yet crumbling to pieces. You can best spend that money on getting a good HDTV if you don't already have it or upgrade your speakers if it needs upgrading. If you've got all of that and you still want to wait, then wait; by CES 2007 there will be new receivers announced with TrueHD/DTS HDMA internal decoding.

As far as lossy vs lossless on HD formats is concerned, it all has to with sampling rate. As far as I know, TrueHD implementation on HD-DVD is only at 16-bit/48 kHz. DD+ at 1.5Mbps that Universal uses is at a higher sampling rate, possibly 20-bit or 24-bit; it is however lossy. Comparing those two, you might lean towards DD+ since it has a higher sampling rate. But if you can compare TrueHD and DD+ at the same sampling rate, I think you'd believe in the lossless God. :cool:

As far as the PS3 not having analog outs, it IS the next gen game console that can be had for US$499 at minimum! You want a toaster with that??? It already has the Foreman grill! :D :D :D


fuad

Yeah, I'm in AVR limbo right now myself. I was so VERY close to getting an Denon 3806 and considering budgeting the necessary for a 4306, but the HDMI situation (all of the current Denon's are 1.1) had me so frustrated I first considered going with a 3805 to save a bit and still have pretty much the same capability (sans HDMI). In the end, I'm staying with the 6.1 HTIB I intended for interim/bedroom duty until at least next year when the HDMI 1.3 AVR's are out.

Sony has their own 7.1 HDMI receivers (ES models), but it's the same situation there. This HTIB has 6 channel analogs, so it's good enough anyway. I have a TOSLink I've been keeping open for the PS3 and that will do fine until the 2007 or 2008 AVR's are out. Analog outs would have better, but that is one feature Sony should be able to reasonably keep for the BDP-S1 without complaint.

In the end, I'm staying with the 6.1 HTIB I intended for interim/bedroom duty until at least next year when the HDMI 1.3 AVR's are out. One thing to note about new AVRs is that when it is new, it's not cheap. :D :D :D So don't expect the level of features for the same amount of money you're willing to spend right now.

That being said, just because an AVR has HDMI 1.3 doesn't mean it can automatically decode TrueHD, DTS HDMA or even the DSD bitstream. 1.3 is just a means of carrying the data. The true work will come from the AVR itself.

My guess is that when the AVR with HDMI 1.3 comes out, it'll be split into the 5.1 and the 7.1 line. Out of that, there will be ones with DD+, TrueHD and DTS HDMA decoding and ones with all of that plus MLP (DVD-Audio) and DSD (SACD) decoding.


fuad

New XMB PS3 video from PSM3 magazine...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCPOob3Bya4&eurl=

Apart from the fact that they're testing it at 480i, i was wondering: why the hell can't the gaming sites who have access to the ps3 go through ALL of the video and audio output options? Is it so difficult? Maybe it's not important to them, but for a lot of their readers it is!

Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio both can do 24/192 resolution at 6 channels and 24/96 at 8 channels, the same as raw LPCM... at least for Blu-Ray. HD-DVD is pretty similar.

Studios have to choose to go for the best audio quality by using their 24 bit masters. Some do, and some don't... and some like Disney are all over the place.

Given a DD+ track and a lossless track, I'd rather have the lossless.

Dan

Well Toys'r'us did pre-orders today....I missed it.

Well, I wouldn't expect its PQ and audio to be among the best by a long shot, they'll save that for their $1000+ flagship BR players. Adequate is probably a better way to describe it. Plus, you wont be able to integrate it into your universal remote (last time I checked).

Its already painful for Sony that they are giving away a free BR player with every PS3 GAME system sold, I wouldn't expect it to be anything more than adequate at playing back movies.

Last time I checked the PS3 didn't have any 5.1 or 7.1 analog outputs correct? So forget TrueHD or other uncomplressed audio formats...still I'm sure it'll be good enough for all the people hooking them up to "BIG" Tv's like 42 and 50 inchers :D


Don't underestimate the power of Cell and RSX.

The PS3 is absurdly more powerful than a regular player.

Don't underestimate the power of Cell and RSX.

The PS3 is absurdly more powerful than a regular player.

I dont "underestimate" anything, I have concern that Sony wont give a rats ass and make it a medicore player, to push people into their $1000 BD stand-alones for "optimal image quality".

REmember something here kids....why would sony sell a super next-gen game system AND BD player that is reference quality for #500 or $600, and yet at the same time expect people to plunk down $800-$1500 for a stand-alone *SONY* BD player...??

Something in this equation has to give...either the Sony stand alone is going to debut at $200 or $300 dollars, or the PS3 is either a woefully inadequate game system and excellent BD player, or a woefully inadequate BD player and excellent game platform.

You can't buy a Ferarri at Chevy prices without something being up....

I believe that they are selling the Play Station 3 at a loss in order to get more blu-ray players into people's homes. They will lose money in the short term on the PS3,but if blu-ray becomes dominate then they will make their money back in the long run by having a successful format. They will make their money back on the games too.

I dont "underestimate" anything, I have concern that Sony wont give a rats ass and make it a medicore player, to push people into their $1000 BD stand-alones for "optimal image quality".

REmember something here kids....why would sony sell a super next-gen game system AND BD player that is reference quality for #500 or $600, and yet at the same time expect people to plunk down $800-$1500 for a stand-alone *SONY* BD player...??

Something in this equation has to give...either the Sony stand alone is going to debut at $200 or $300 dollars, or the PS3 is either a woefully inadequate game system and excellent BD player, or a woefully inadequate BD player and excellent game platform.

You can't buy a Ferarri at Chevy prices without something being up....


Then we can all assume the Xbox HD-DVD add-on is going to be crap also? If so, Microsoft just lost me as a customer in relation to purchasing an Xbox 360 Premium. I preordered the add-on pending reviews once it has been released. If performance of this add-on ranks up there with the Toshiba players, hello to the Xbox 360. If not, I will continue to wait for a price drop.

The PS3 as a gaming machine will be outright incredible. So the BIG question is....how will it play Blu Ray movies?

I believe these companies would want it the other way around. Both are trying to get market share for HD-DVD or Blu Ray. What better way to gain loyal customers(hence market share) then to provide the ability to play high def dvds with above average performance from their gaming machines. When the PS2 was released, dvd had already been around for three years. Nobody was looking at the PS2 as their dvd player. They already had a dvd player. The PS2 was purchased for gaming. High definition movies and the next generation of gaming is hitting at the same time for most people. There are many people out there hoping for an above average Blu Ray Player contained within the PS3 for one obvious reason which you already mentioned....price. If Sony provides a decent Blu Ray Player within the PS3, I honestly believe Blu Ray will eventually win out. If not, I believe we are in for a long battle. The current Blu Ray Players will drop in price within the year so I do not see that as being an issue.

If the HD-DVD add-on is an above average drive, great for everybody. Without studio support, it really will not matter. I am going to enjoy both formats while the war is being decided. :cool:

Indeed! The Blu-ray studios are expecting certain things from the PS3, which they no doubt have been promised by Sony. I doubt they would risk alienating the studios and risk losing the war, just to sell a few more of their high-end player. Sony is in this for the long run...

It is 400,000 and that is just the PS3 launch shipment shipment for NA. Unless Sony has more problems with supplies I expect that at least 1 million PS3s in total will ship this year in NA.


Don't know where you heard that from but that is most likely wrong since their is no reason to delay shipments for a given date. Your probably thinking about the expected launch of PS3 for Europe which is currently planned for March of next year.


Did you mean to type 5?

Yes.
Yes 400K, You are correct. Not sure where I heard just 70k units. :o
And the 55 was not a mistype :)

There is a report on another thread at AVS with a link to a article stating that Sony has reduced the numbers again.

Looks like 350,000 for N/A and 80K for Japan.

Cheers,

Richard

I saw the Japan numbers...where are you getting the US numbers change?

I only saw 80000 for Japan, and no mention of NA. However, I think it's a fair guess that it will be less than 350000 in NA. Also...

Sony Playstation 3 further details (http://www.newlaunches.com/archives/sony_playstation_3_further_details.php)

"With the Playstation 3 launch just around the corner, Sony has released further information about the next gen console. The PS3 is a power hug and consumes around 380 watts of power more than double the Xbox 360's 160 watts and eight times the PS2's nimble 45 watts. So spending an average of 4 hours a day on the machine will add approx $ 80 to your yearly power bill. Coming to the files supported included in the list are MPEG-2 (PS and TS), MPEG-1, H.264 / MPEG-4 AVC / SP video formats and MP3, ATRAC (but of course), AAC, WAV audio formats. Also supported are various image formats like JPEG, BMP, TIFF, GIF and PNG. The optical drive in addition to BD-ROM games can read BD video, BD-R/RE, DVD±R/RW (VR-Modes also supported), Music CD's, SACD along with support for AVCHD media."

It's nice to see Sony confirming the H.264 & AVC support beyond just with Blu-ray. What is SP video though?

If the 380 Watts is true, colour me surprised. That's quite high.

"MPEG 4 AVC / SP video formats" should be MPEG 4 AVC simple profile

Sony Playstation 3 further details (http://www.newlaunches.com/archives/sony_playstation_3_further_details.php)

So spending an average of 4 hours a day on the machine will add approx $ 80 to your yearly power bill..."

If the 380 Watts is true, colour me surprised. That's quite high.
And if you can average 4 hours a day for a solid year, you won't be able to afford the $80, because you obviously don't have a job, or a wife, or if you do, not for long. :D

I think that once the PS3 is released. A whole new area dedicated to the PS3 as a Blu-Ray player and not to talk about gaming in that thread (because it will be the most owned player for a long time) instead of sticking them all in one giant thread.. You could even make the argument that maybe the PS3 fits into some HTPC category because of Linux at some point. But more important than that is to allow more than one topic because I know many more people will have PS3's as their main one and only Blu-Ray player besides the pioneer or samsung..

"MPEG 4 AVC / SP video formats" should be MPEG 4 AVC simple profile
There's no AVC simple profile. SP is in old MPEG4 and is used in DiVX-like codecs.

AVC has baseline, main, high and extended profiles

Baseline - (cavlc only, no cabac entropy encode), usually targetted at portable devices (mobile phones, ipods, etc)

Extended - noone cares about this today.

Main - was the old mainstream profile until performance issues showed up for HD.

High Profile is the subset of the FRExt that is used by HDDVD/BD and is the dominant profile for AVC-HD. I understand the camcorders are also doing AVC-HD. The advantages of the High Profile AVC are the 8x8 transforms (more suitable for HD) and weighted quantization.

If the 380 Watts is true, colour me surprised. That's quite high.

It is true, the manual says it plus the bottom of the unit says 120V 3.2A.

It is true, the manual says it plus the bottom of the unit says 120V 3.2A.
Basically all that is saying is that the power supply is rated up to 380 Watts. That doesn't say anything about actual usage.

Basically all that is saying is that the power supply is rated up to 380 Watts. That doesn't say anything about actual usage.


If it works like computer power supply's do, the usage wattage on average will be much lower...

It's nice to see Sony confirming the H.264 & AVC support beyond just with Blu-ray.

It was never really a concern. It's been stated that SOE and Sony will have AVC/HP-encoded material (Movie and Game trailers, haven't heard of TV) on the PlayStation Network day one. Although, I, personally, am impressed with the ability of some to really push and take advantage of BD's slow start to push out meme's like the Cell Processor can't handle MPEG4-AVC/HP comment. It's an absolutely ridiculous statement; I've seen an IBM QS20 decode multiple streams, but a lot of people bought into it.

I didnt read this whole thread, but how come we are so close to launch and there has been no mention of PQ of BD on PS3? Several review sites got PS3 to review and none of them popped in a BD movie?

I didnt read this whole thread, but how come we are so close to lainch and there has been no mention of PQ of BD on PS3? Several review sites got PS3 to review and none of them popped in a BD movie?Some (all?) older review units didn't have BD playback enabled.

EA Estimates PS3, Wii Launch Figures (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4131&Itemid=2)
During a quarterly conference call, Electronic Arts estimated PS3 and Wii shipment quantities for North America through the end of the year—and of course, PS3s will be hard to come by.

EA CFO Warren Jenson said, “We’re thinking that with PlayStation 3 in North America, the [2006 shipment] range is probably 500,000 to 800,000. If you take the middle of that range, that’s approximately what Microsoft sold last year on the Xbox 360.”

EA's estimations for PS3 shipments are substantially less than Sony's North American target, which is 1 to 1.2 million shipped.

It is true, the manual says it plus the bottom of the unit says 120V 3.2A.It was pointed out in another thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8779848&&#post8779848) that if you used the same calculation with the Xbox 360 you would get a power supply of 600 watts. Which to say the least is significantly different than the actual power supply of 203 watts.

Has anybody heard any rumors or concrete news about the PS3 getting a firmware upgrade to internally decode DTS-HD MA 5.1? It looks like it does Dolby TrueHD 5.1 internally already. I'm wondering because I'd really like to pick up an HDMI switching receiver soon to get lossless sound from movies/games, but I'm not sure if I should wait on an HDMI 1.3 receiver.

I'm kind of skeptical, though, because it seems like a firmware upgrade to allow internal decoding of all lossless sound formats would kind of undermine the whole 'HDMI 1.3 included' selling point ('Deep Color' excluded).

Has anybody heard any rumors or concrete news about the PS3 getting a firmware upgrade to internally decode DTS-HD MA 5.1? Not heard that rumor. It could be that there might be a firmware update later on.

Information on the DTS website is confusing me now. I used to think that DTS do not allow DTS HDMA be decoded by the player. Now it seems that the stream can be decoded. See this page. (http://www.dts.com/dts-hd/dtshd-master-audio-with-existing-receiver.php)


The lossy DTS High Resolution Audio cannot, and must be passed using HDMI 1.1 at least. See this other page. (http://www.dts.com/dts-hd/dtshd-high-resolution-audio.php)


fuad

wolfy,

Yes, Sony is working on a software update with DTS-HD decoding, expected for release in 1Q 2007.

wolfy,

Yes, Sony is working on a software update with DTS-HD decoding, expected for release in 1Q 2007.

Great news! :) Source?

wolfy,

Yes, Sony is working on a software update with DTS-HD decoding, expected for release in 1Q 2007.

Yeah, that is good news, but by DTS-HD, do you mean the ability to internally decode the DTS-HD MA lossless tracks like the ones available on the upcoming Fox releases?

(I really wish DTS would have come up with a different way of labeling all these different HD versions or just skipped the intermediate stuff like DTS-HD and just do DTS-HD MA..... same for Dolby and the Dolby Digital Plus/ Dolby TrueHD tracks -> why even bother with Dolby Digital Plus when TrueHD is possible???)

The ps3 WILL decode dolby true hd 7.1 but sony didn´t say anything already about the dts hd master audio.The footage on the net of the ps3 apears that the console only do dts digital out.The dts hd master audio can be decoded by the player and send a pcm 7.1 lossless audio to a receiver with hdmi 1.1/1.2, i already see this with a pio bd1 and the receiver pio 84. Now Fox are prepared to send to market many titles in blu ray exclusive for the PS3 launch, and all of the titles are DTS HD Master audio. I hope that sony put a dts hd master audio decoder build in, or it can be upgraded via firmware.Everyboby on the net that want a ps3 as a bluray are wayting for this answer from sony...

Yeah, that is good news, but by DTS-HD, do you mean the ability to internally decode the DTS-HD MA lossless tracks like the ones available on the upcoming Fox releases?I assume so, but the information I got wasn't that specific.

"MPEG 4 AVC / SP video formats" should be MPEG 4 AVC simple profile

Or so called divx/xvid...BTW, has anybody confirmed that PS3 could directly play MPEG2 ts/h.264/vc-1 from USB HDD?

Is ps3 going to output 1080p/24 or 1080i/24 for movies?

It is true, the manual says it plus the bottom of the unit says 120V 3.2A.
Wattage is only calculated by multiplying Volts time Amps for a resistive load. The 120v x 3.2a rating listed for the PS3 really equals 384 VA not 384 watts for the case of electronic equipment. Such listings on the power line input usually are for peak values which typically apply only briefly when the unit is first turned on. Take a look at the spec. sheet for PC power supplies. Here is the link for one example: http://www.dynapowerusa.com/ebproductdetail.asp?id=313

In this case their 300 watt PC power support is listed with an input voltage and current rating of 110 volt at 9 amps for 990 VA for a power support rated to provide only 300 watts of steady state output power.

I would speculate that the short-term peak wattage consumption of the PS3 (e.g., at power up) is perhaps as high at 250 watts, but the average power consumption under steady state conditions may be well under 200 watts.

Ron Jones

Is ps3 going to output 1080p/24 or 1080i/24 for movies?Not at release.

Sony may add 1080p24 output support next year with a software update.

So the 1080p is only for games at 60fps?

So the 1080p is only for games at 60fps?

They output movie/video at 1080p60 also.

Not at release.

Sony may add 1080p24 output support next year with a software update.

I really hope they do eventually support 1080p24. Where'd you hear about this BTW.

They output movie/video at 1080p60 also.


Since movies are filmed at 24 fps then the ps3 would only output movies at 1080i correct?

Since movies are filmed at 24 fps then the ps3 would only output movies at 1080i correct?No, the PS3 will do 3/2 pulldown to output 1080p24 film content at 1080p60, which is the format that 98% of consumer 1080p displays support. To create 1080p60 output, some frames are repeated while others are not, every second.

so what's all this talk about a true 1080p/24 blu ray player iv'e been reading about? what is 3/2 pulldown too?

No, the PS3 will do 3/2 pulldown to output 1080p24 film content at 1080p60, which is the format that 98% of consumer 1080p displays support. To create 1080p60 output, some frames are repeated while others are not, every second.

So what's "wrong" with this 1080p60 display method? I'm a bit confused about this, reading the replies in this thread makes me think that 1080p24 is for some reason better, but the numbers (24 vs 60 frames per second) would suggest otherwise. I'd appreciate some insight on this.

Wattage is only calculated by multiplying Volts time Amps for a resistive load. The 120v x 3.2a rating listed for the PS3 really equals 384 VA not 384 watts for the case of electronic equipment. Such listings on the power line input usually are for peak values which typically apply only briefly when the unit is first turned on. Take a look at the spec. sheet for PC power supplies.
In this case their 300 watt PC power support is listed with an input voltage and current rating of 110 volt at 9 amps for 990 VA for a power support rated to provide only 300 watts of steady state output power.

I would speculate that the short-term peak wattage consumption of the PS3 (e.g., at power up) is perhaps as high at 250 watts, but the average power consumption under steady state conditions may be well under 200 watts.


Thanks for the explanation, it makes sense, though I've seen the actual specification page in the manual that's in a retail PS3 box and it does say 380W. I don't remember the exact wording, I'll check it on Monday.

Film is done at 24fps. Since there is no even multiple of 24 to 60, some frames have to be kept up longer (even if it's only for a fraction of a second) than others, which causes "judder." Most of us are used to this, however, since that's the only way we've ever watched movies. Those with front projectors have had 24p available for at least this generation of equipment, though it's relatively recent for them, too. IIRC, some high end plasmas have this option, too.

It hasn't spread to any rear projection sets yet but it's inevitable that we'll eventually get to 120hz sets, which is divisible by both the NTSC standard 60fps (each frame displayed twice) and movie 24fps (each frame displayed 5 times), which would be the best of both worlds, if not having independent 24fps and 60fps modes.

On the subject of 120hz displays, people may or may not remember the presentation Ken Kutaragi made at the Tokyo International Digital Conference almost exactly one year ago to the day; unfortunately Western gaming media badly confused the slides and reported it as a claim that PS3 would reach 120FPS. But in truth it had nothing directly to do with PS3 at all.

In any event, Sony seems to view the 'present' ideal of HD as 1080p sets running at 120hz. They're getting the 1080p now, and the later is tentatively pegged at the ~2008 timeframe. We'll see what happens on that front, but anyway thought it was worth mentioning as there's sort of the perfect storm here of Playstation discussion, the 24fps issue with movies, and the 120hz display issue. Granted this may more reflect Kutaragi's own visions for the industry than an actual near-term concerted effort we'll see on the part of the CE players, but an interesting slide nonetheless.

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/NEWS/20051027/110194/1027sce_hd_roadmap.jpg

An explanation of 3-2 pulldown:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html

Thanks for the explanation, it makes sense, though I've seen the actual specification page in the manual that's in a retail PS3 box and it does say 380W. I don't remember the exact wording, I'll check it on Monday.
If the PS3 manual does says 380W then it should be qualified as being "maximum" or "peak".

Ron Jones

Sony expect Blu-Ray to be finished in 2 years time?

In this PS3 XMB video:

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/11/03/playstation-3-xmb-walkthroughs/

i saw two things which puzzle me a bit:

1) From 1:13 to 1:21, you can see a setting called "Cinema conversion", which is set on Automatic. Could this be the 3:2 pulldown setting for "Film mode"?

2) From 1:22 to 1:32, you can see the "BD audio output format (Optical Digital)" setting, which can be set to bitstream or linear PCM. As far as i know, the optical interface only supports PCM with just 2 channels, is that right? So in that case the multichannel audio would be down-mixed to two channels?

Film is done at 24fps. Since there is no even multiple of 24 to 60, some frames have to be kept up longer (even if it's only for a fraction of a second) than others, which causes "judder." Most of us are used to this, however, since that's the only way we've ever watched movies. Those with front projectors have had 24p available for at least this generation of equipment, though it's relatively recent for them, too. IIRC, some high end plasmas have this option, too.

It hasn't spread to any rear projection sets yet but it's inevitable that we'll eventually get to 120hz sets, which is divisible by both the NTSC standard 60fps (each frame displayed twice) and movie 24fps (each frame displayed 5 times), which would be the best of both worlds, if not having independent 24fps and 60fps modes.

Great explanation, thanks! So this whole 1080p24 issue currently only concerns those few who have the latest front projectors and the few high-end plasma users? Why are people so concerned about it then? (I'm not trying to be sarcastic, just trying to understand what's behind it).

Great explanation, thanks! So this whole 1080p24 issue currently only concerns those few who have the latest front projectors and the few high-end plasma users?Correct, as well as many who plan to purchase a new display next year.

Why are people so concerned about it then?Consumer displays are expected next year with 1080p24 input support (and 1080p72 or better output). These 2007 models should start showing up in stores between May and July. We'll learn more about who will have these displays (and how much they will cost) at CES in January.

Support for 1080p24 output should be standard on all third-generation HD-DVD and Blu-ray models around this time next year.

2) From 1:22 to 1:32, you can see the "BD audio output format (Optical Digital)" setting, which can be set to bitstream or linear PCM. As far as i know, the optical interface only supports PCM with just 2 channels, is that right? So in that case the multichannel audio would be down-mixed to two channels?
The digital out on optical or coaxial supports PCM 2-channel only. But the SPDIF interface can also carry raw bitstream undecoded. From this, you can get Dolby Digital EX 5.1 at maximum bitrate of 640 kpbs and DTS ES Discrete 6.1 at 1.5Mbps.

If you don't have the equipment to decode DD or DTS for DVD or BD, set the PS3 to PCM. If you have the equipment, set it to bitstream.

I believe there is a different setting where you can specify what the HDMI cable is carrying.


fuad

Consumer displays are expected next year with 1080p24 input support (and 1080p72 or better output). These 2007 models should start showing up in stores between May and July. We'll learn more about who will have these displays (and how much they will cost) at CES in January.

Support for 1080p24 output should be standard on all third-generation HD-DVD and Blu-ray models around this time next year.

So if I understand correctly for players that can output 1080p60 it should be a very straight-forward (software only?) update to support 1080p24? It should be less taxing for them to produce 24 fps versus 60 fps and let the display figure out what to do with it, right?

So if I understand correctly for players that can output 1080p60 it should be a very straight-forward (software only?) update to support 1080p24?It depends on the chip used. For example, I don't think the Genesis circuit in the Samsung and Philips can telecine 1080i60 from the Broadcom decoder to 1080p24.

If a product doesn't offer 1080p24 output at release, or the promise of 1080p24 output at release, then I wouldn't expect to see that functionality. The exception to that is the Sony PS3, which is essentially an HTPC that can do whatever Sony wants with software.

I thought 2 million by the end of 06, 4 million total by the end of the fiscal year, but I just read this (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061105/ap_on_hi_te/playstation3_mania;_ylt=AtClYkmEjJL4OB176w9aayDMWM0F;_ylu=X3 oDMTA3cjE0b2MwBHNlYwM3Mzg-)

Kazuo Hirai, chief executive of Sony Computer Entertainment America, said about 400,000 units will be available in the U.S. in the initial launch and an additional 600,000 by the end of this year.

Sony hopes to have a total of 2 million consoles in the U.S. market by the end of company's fiscal year, which ends in March.

Sony expect Blu-Ray to be finished in 2 years time?
Yes, Sony would expect, or a least hope, that the transition to Blu-ray will be complete in two years and HD-DVD will be but a footnote in the history of consumer electronics.

Ron Jones

Footnote perhaps, but just as Sony touts putting 400,000 BD devices in homes this xmas, based on the sellouts of the Xbox HD-DVD player, M$ could conceivably put a couple Million of those units in gamers hands at the same time.

Now...that will be interesting to say the least.....they priced it right, and as a result people are snapping them up like theres no tomorrow.

And since game-geeks and technonerds are the ones who will actually buy new movies in an HD format, HD-DVD may have longer legs than many initially anticipated....

So is this thread going to be shut down too? First I agree with the moderator to a point, he specifically has a thread on the PS3 PreOrders but then shuts that thread down because he says it is for people who have the PS3? Huh? News to me, but I thought the launch is the 17th :) I might have gotten a PS3 if BB holds true to there word....

Footnote perhaps, but just as Sony touts putting 400,000 BD devices in homes this xmas, based on the sellouts of the Xbox HD-DVD player, M$ could conceivably put a couple Million of those units in gamers hands at the same time.Well that somewhat depends on whether you consider the difference between tens of thousands and millions to be an important distinction. It is going to take a heck of a long time for Microsoft to sell a million HD DVD add-ons and many would say that is even an "if" type of question.


Now...that will be interesting to say the least.....they priced it right, and as a result people are snapping them up like theres no tomorrow.How many exactly where snapped up?


And since game-geeks and technonerds are the ones who will actually buy new movies in an HD format, HD-DVD may have longer legs than many initially anticipated....If you are saying that you believe that gamers are interested in HD movies wouldn't that apply to Blu-ray and the PS3 as well?

I thought 2 million by the end of 06, 4 million total by the end of the fiscal year, but I just read this (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061105/ap_on_hi_te/playstation3_mania;_ylt=AtClYkmEjJL4OB176w9aayDMWM0F;_ylu=X3 oDMTA3cjE0b2MwBHNlYwM3Mzg-)

Kazuo Hirai, chief executive of Sony Computer Entertainment America, said about 400,000 units will be available in the U.S. in the initial launch and an additional 600,000 by the end of this year.

Sony hopes to have a total of 2 million consoles in the U.S. market by the end of company's fiscal year, which ends in March.

EA is saying it'll be like between 500K and 800K PS3s by the end of the year.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=20789

That's poopy :(

Well that somewhat depends on whether you consider the difference between tens of thousands and millions to be an important distinction.


I wouldn't pretend that HD-DVD wont be able to match the in-home presence if PS3 turns out to be a hit rather than a dud (we still have to see how many buyers will balk at the $600 pricetag).....but for those who said HD-DVD was already in a grave and shoveling dirt on it, Microsoft has several million 360s in homes....which means each one of those is a potential HD-DVD upgrader. I think there are something like 50K Toshiba HD-DVD decks sold so far.....


It is going to take a heck of a long time for Microsoft to sell a million HD DVD add-ons and many would say that is even an "if" type of question.


Well I'm using this reasoning.....if Microsoft has already sold several million Xbox 360's, and now are offering a cheap ($200) HD-DVD add-on, I would think the percentage of HDDVD adopters would be quite high. Certainly Microsoft will sell enough units initially to double, triple, quadruple the number of HD-DVD players currently in release almost overnight.


How many exactly where snapped up?


That I couldn't tell you, but so far all the gaming boards are awash in HD-DVD pre-order sellouts, with people bemoaning the fact that now they even have to pre-order add-ons.


If you are saying that you believe that gamers are interested in HD movies wouldn't that apply to Blu-ray and the PS3 as well?

Of course, I'm not trying to say that HD-DVD will "beat" Blu-Ray. Unlike VHS/Beta I think Sony will be the dominant format in future years. But HD-DVD has certainly put another clawed hand into the earth with the release of the M$ add-on.....assuming its not *total junk*, it'll put an immediate demand for HD-DVD discs out there and probably get more releases put out.

I consider HD-DVD to be like Laserdisc, where BD will eventually become the new DVD standard. HD-DVD will be around for awhile, in the background, appealing to some but not to the masses.

The thing is, if Microsoft can sell even a million HD-DVD add-ons, thats going to cause alot of studios who did not support HD-DVD to think about all that lost revenue....so the format may have some legs. In our disposable age if the format can survive for 3-5 years, I'd say that makes it viable.

If MS manages to sell millions of HD-DVD add ons, public relations wise hollywood is going have trouble adopting the ICT flags. Now I know this sounds good, but I don't see George Lucas releasing the Star Wars movies in HD without the ICT flags...

What are ICT flags, sorry there is just so much technical knowledge out there I havn't been exposed to yet. Much regard to the AVS community!

What are ICT flags, sorry there is just so much technical knowledge out there I havn't been exposed to yet. Much regard to the AVS community!To put it simply, it's a form of copy protection.

ICT Flags were adopted by both BD and HDDVD.....basically if this setting is enabled on a HDDVD or BluRay Disc, it will only play at the full HD resolution over HDMI digital connections. If you have your BluRay or HDDVD player hooked up via component cables, you'll get a downscaled image...like 1/4 the resolution or something.....aka: Slightly better than native DVD resolution.

So naturally everyone freaked out since many people own TV's that dont even have HDMI, or have older DVI inputs that may or may not work properly.

The HDDVD camp was the first to state that they wouldn't be implementing the ICT flags on movies "at this time"...and I think Sony kind of said the same thing......but its up to the studio releasing the disc if they want to turn it on or not. So far no discs released have had the flag turned on that I know of.

I agree that I think the MS add-on will aid HD-DVD - how can it not? And HD-DVD definitely has some claws in the earth at this point.

But in this world of constrained diode supplies, I cannot imagine that MS will be able to ship volumes of this add-on to exceed a couple hundred thousand this season - and even that might be way too high a number.

We'll just have to wait and watch.

Though I hate the Inquirer, saw this today also that I feel plays a relevant role in any decisions by the would-be videophile:

An interesting post appeared on the official Xbox Team blog as the week fizzled out, concerning the amount of development the team endured to ensure HD-DVD drive compatibility with the Xbox 360.

The add-on drive has apparently meant a staggering 4.7 million lines of code have been added to the 360's OS in an attempt to bring the Microsoft backed HD-DVD standard to the Xbox. This software-update driving the Xbox's HD-DVD implementation apparently utitlises the full 'six hardware threads' of the triple core CPU, and is claimed to push the system harder than any game currently available, ensuring for some considerable fan noise one would imagine.

http://chipzilla.com/default.aspx?article=35551

I am guessing, based on latest articles about Nvidia Pure HD and HD-DVD decoding on a PC, that the x360 should be working at it's limits to play any AVC encoded movie. For most of the HD-DVD discs, i am guessing this is not relevant, since they are VC1 encoded, but supporting AVC is required by the standard... If this proves to be true, then we will know the ATI chip on the x360 does not have hardware decoding capabilities. As long as it works for all the material produced in HD-DVD, it's ok, but it will be very noisy.(althoug the video card will not be too loaded...)
On the other hand, the ps3 can use it's 7 processing units very effectively for this kind of task, and if the rsx unit has nvidia pure-hd capabilities, it even doesn't need to use that much cpu...
Let's see how things turn out....

About availability, if PS3 issues were the blue laser diode, I also don't see how Microsoft could make hundreds of thousands of HD-DVD drives available...

Yeah the PS3 will rock for Blu-Ray ... As long as it doesn't need to use much of it's available memory for movie playback.

Honestly, both systems have their strong points and weaker points that people would rather not discuss.

As gaming systems is seems rather unlikely that either will be reference quality HD players. I could be wrong, but it just seems unlikely. And in either case, both will probably go through a couple months of painful adjustments and firmware releases before the dust settles and the quality reaches it's high point.

In the end both will probably end up being very adequate players, but still not up the standards of the best stand alone players.

All just MHO of course.

Cheers,

Richard

The xbox live announcement regarding downloadable hd movie rentals will push the Sony ps3 toward that function as well. A no brainer for Sony/mgm with thier huge hd library. Another bonus of this so called "game console".

The xbox live announcement regarding downloadable hd movie rentals will push the Sony ps3 toward that function as well. A no brainer for Sony/mgm with thier huge hd library. Another bonus of this so called "game console".
This I post somewhere else but is still on topic.
One of the movies that Warner Bros. is offering for the HD download is Superman Returns. Its running time is 154 minutes.

Time: 154 x 60 = 9240 seconds.
If Microsoft can make 10Mbps VC-1 transfer work, then the total video size will be : 10Mbps x 9240 / 8000 (to convert to GBytes and not bits) = 11.55GB
If they are using just DD+ at 640kbps :0.640Mbps x 9240 / 8000 = 0.7392GB
Total download = 11.55GB VC-1 Video + 0.7392GB DD+ Audio = 12.29GB.

a) I hope those who want this have a really high speed connection
b) They also don't mind using up their HDD space. Just would be easier to buy the movie then to "rent" it, download it for a couple of days and then have a limited window to view it. You also don't get the best audio quality possible.


fuad

WriteSimple,

To assist with your calculations: the HD downloads are in VC-1 at 720p, 6.8Mbps video with 5.1 surround. So your Superman download would be around 7 GB. On my cablemodem this would roughly take overnight to download - which is faster than Netflix but slower than Blockbuster.

If there has to be a tradeoff between download size and image quality, given the current state of broadband, then these numbers seem quite good to me.

On the recent Xbox 360 news concerning HD downloadable rentals I would point out a few things of interest:

They are encoded at 720p at around 6.8 Mbps for both the audio and video. In other words Blu-ray/HD DVD have nothing to worry about.
The 6.8 Mbps figure is based on a 2 hour movie and longer movies may have an even lower AV bit rate.
At $6 per 24 hour viewing I personally would consider it a tad much.
You can not move these movies to an external hard drive so until Microsoft releases a larger Xbox 360 hard drive this highly restricts how much video could be downloaded to an Xbox 360.
Any of the TV shows purchased will only be viewable on the Xbox 360.

480i over HDMI? Sorry if this has been answered before but I couldn't find it in a search of the thread. Will the PS3 pass a 480i signal thru the HDMI output? Thanks

From engadget's interview with Peter Dille, Sony Computer Entertainment's SVP of Marketing


Because, that's something that actually kind of turned some heads is when Microsoft announced 1080p support. They also announced that they were going to be adding DVD playback upscaling to 1080p, which is kind of something that is more or less unheard of in the consumer DVD playback market.

Right, so I guess from a Blu-ray perspective, Blu-ray movies are obviously 1080p capable; the Blu-ray player will upscale DVDs -- your question's about why not PS1 and PS2 games?

So you're saying the PlayStation 3 will upscale DVDs to 1080p?

Yes. Oh, yes.

Okay.

That's part and parcel of the Blu-ray technology. I thought you were questioning about the PlayStation game aspect.

Yeah, this is also about PlayStation 1 and PlayStation 2 games that are going to be played on the console.

Yeah, I don't know the answer to that, as I said. I thought that's what you're asking. Blu-ray does upscale the DVD movie experience. I'd have to check on the PlayStation -- we can get back to you on that.

From engadget's interview with Peter Dille, Sony Computer Entertainment's SVP of Marketing

Because, that's something that actually kind of turned some heads is when Microsoft announced 1080p support. They also announced that they were going to be adding DVD playback upscaling to 1080p, which is kind of something that is more or less unheard of in the consumer DVD playback market.

Right, so I guess from a Blu-ray perspective, Blu-ray movies are obviously 1080p capable; the Blu-ray player will upscale DVDs -- your question's about why not PS1 and PS2 games?

So you're saying the PlayStation 3 will upscale DVDs to 1080p?

Yes. Oh, yes.

Okay.

That's part and parcel of the Blu-ray technology. I thought you were questioning about the PlayStation game aspect.

Yeah, this is also about PlayStation 1 and PlayStation 2 games that are going to be played on the console.

Yeah, I don't know the answer to that, as I said. I thought that's what you're asking. Blu-ray does upscale the DVD movie experience. I'd have to check on the PlayStation -- we can get back to you on that.

WHAA!? I thought it was confirmed that PS3 would NOT upconvert DVD's!? I read the whole interview with Peter Dille and I really got the impression that he has no idea what he is talking about.

If it will upconvert DVD's then I just got a whole lot more interested in PS3 again!

WHAA!? I thought it was confirmed that PS3 would NOT upconvert DVD's!? I read the whole interview with Peter Dille and I really got the impression that he has no idea what he is talking about.

If it will upconvert DVD's then I just got a whole lot more interested in PS3 again!

Dille's not a hardware guy, but the interviewer does circle back on the question after his first answer and he restates that it does. So who knows...

We'll know next week, finally, for sure. Hopefully sooner.

I'm guessing that Dille confused DVD upscale to 1080p, with Blu-Ray Disc playback at 1080p. I'll probably stick with IGN's sourse saying that the PS3 wouldn't upscale DVDs until we have proof to the contrary. Personally, I'm really hoping it does a respectable job of deinterlacing and up-scaling standard DVDs.

Thanks for the info!

WHAA!? I thought it was confirmed that PS3 would NOT upconvert DVD's!? I read the whole interview with Peter Dille and I really got the impression that he has no idea what he is talking about.

If it will upconvert DVD's then I just got a whole lot more interested in PS3 again!

A retail PS3 that I have access to with firmware version 1.00 does NOT upconvert DVDs, it plays them in their native resolution. Check out the 5th element picture I took a few days ago here:

http://s133.photobucket.com/albums/q79/k-maan/PS3

That said, as I don't know the hardware details there might not be anything but a firmware update preventing Sony to enable it.

I heard the 599 PS3 is the one to get if your using it as part of your home theater.Is this true, and if so why? Also will both versions of PS3 be available on Nov 17 or just the 499 version? Thanks a lot! Sam Zeoli

I heard the 599 PS3 is the one to get if your using it as part of your home theater.Is this true, and if so why?Several months ago that would have been accurate but it has been announced that the HDMI 1.3 output will be on both versions of the PS3. If you are mainly interested in the PS3 for Blu-ray playback both versions would work equally well for that.


Also will both versions of PS3 be available on Nov 17 or just the 499 version?Most retailers will only be stocking the $600 version from what I have heard, but it might depend on the retailer. Their is a new section of the forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=165) for purchasing the PS3 which might be helpful for that question.

I heard the 599 PS3 is the one to get if your using it as part of your home theater.Is this true, and if so why? Also will both versions of PS3 be available on Nov 17 or just the 499 version? Thanks a lot! Sam Zeoli What Richard said.

In addition, with the 60GB version you get to use the memory card slots, you have the built-in wifi (the Ethernet port is still there) and you get a HDMI cable (cheap but hey it's free).

The Wifi is good for browsing the web or playing games online. The Ethernet port is good for home networking of media, like .TS files of off-the-air/cable movies you've saved or AAC/MP3 files on your main computer.


fuad

Just one question. Will the BD drive in the PS3 be the same drive as in the standalone Blueray player offered by Sony, and if not will the PQ be the same?

Found this on another forum, not sure if it has ben posted here yet.

Sony's Phil Harrison has admitted that the company "overreached" with its decision to include a Blu-ray drive in PlayStation 3. (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=69637)

-Robert

Will the BD drive in the PS3 be the same drive as in the standalone Blueray player offered by SonyNo.

and if not will the PQ be the same?The BD-ROM drive in the product has no impact on picture quality. Picture quality is determined by the video capabilities of the product and player's software (and, of course, the quality of the encoding on the disk).

At this time, we do not know how the software on the PS3 will compare to standalone players.

Found this on another forum, not sure if it has ben posted here yet.

Sony's Phil Harrison has admitted that the company "overreached" with its decision to include a Blu-ray drive in PlayStation 3. (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=69637)

-Robert



One thing he said in there was:

""But that's the price you pay for adopting brand new, leading-edge technologies that will be future proof. We will resolve those issues - we are already catching up."


And he's right. You take a risk upfront from long term rewards.

We'll see how it goes.

This is an interesting article from BusinessWeek.com (http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/nov2006/id20061107_054204.htm?chan=innovation_game+room_top+stories)

Some choice quotes:
He says newsreels of miserable, huddled consumers waiting forlornly on sidewalks are “very damaging”. “What people can’t deal with is bad information,” he says. "When we communicate that number [of units] we’ll deliver against it. We’re going to try to accommodate as many people as possible. We’re going to avoid creating false expectations. Retailers will know their quantities well in advance of opening their doors. They’ll say, ‘this is the quantity we have to work with, we’re going to distribute numbers, if you’ve got one of those numbers, you’re good to go. If you didn’t, I’m sorry, we’ll do the best we can to have subsequent supply.’


“So you don’t have somebody who waits hours upon hours only to find out that they aren’t getting one.”

On that 400,000 figure

For Tretton, the task at hand isn’t just about getting as close as possible to that previously suggested 400,000-unit figure, but also in backing up the launch with new supplies, prior to the Holidays. “The first question out of a retailer’s mouth is ‘when are you going to have more?’ We will provide subsequent information that says, ‘here’s when the next shipment is coming and here’s what you can expect.’ So they can give consumers accurate information.”

...

As is well documented, one component in particular is causing the problem - the Blu-ray laser diode. “I’m like everybody else. I’m saying ‘come on! Just build ‘em, man! What’s so complicated?’ But think about what that blue laser diode has to do. It has to read audio CDs, standard DVDs, Blu-ray DVDs, PlayStation 1 games, PlayStation 2 games, and PlayStation 3 games. Six completely different formats that have nothing to do with each other and you’re going to have one device that’s going to read all those.

“That’s a tremendous concept. But when you turn to the engineers and say ‘go build that for me,’ they ask ‘are you crazy?’ But they’ve managed to pull it off. We’ve got the blue laser diode’s yield now. Okay, it’s not necessarily where we’d like to be but it will get exponentially healthier as we go forward. The production capacity on November 6, is better than the production capacity on November 1 which was better than October 26. It gets better every day and as we get closer the numbers get bigger and better. It’s just a matter of physically getting them here.”

A good read.


fuad

Can someone who has access to a PS3 check if the video output on HDMI can be set to 1366x768 and 1360x768 via the "Custom" resolution option?

Can someone who has access to a PS3 check if the video output on HDMI can be set to 1366x768 and 1360x768 via the "Custom" resolution option?It does not.

I would not expect Sony to add that capability in the future, either.

It does not.

I would not expect Sony to add that capability in the future, either.

Thanks for your answer.

Can you explain how the "Custom" resolution option works? Like, do you have two fields to write the horizontal and vertical pixel numbers, or what? At what point does it refuse to set output to 1360x768?

bfd is that the resolution 750p? if so then i might think yes.

today i played ps3 on a tv which has 750p instead of 720p. i thought it was a typo. but maybe there is something like 750p. it was on a sony bravia tv.

i have to say though it doesnt look as good as 720p or 1080p. the game i tested was ridge racer 7 and devil may cry.

bfd is that the resolution 750p?

No, 750p is just another way to call 720p (by counting all the lines and not just the active ones).

Here's a more detailed explanation (from http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/rss/us-hdtv-xbox-360-gets-the-shaft-143072.php):

It promotes a popular misconception that is based on the different ways the US and Japan describe identical HDTV systems.

The US quote the number of lines that contain picture information (i.e. active lines) - which are 1080 and 720 for the two common US standards of 1080/60i and 720/60p. (This is because the US system is based on the formats used for broadcasting digital TV where MPEG2 only broadcasts the active video over the air)

In Japan they quote the total number of lines (including the invisible lines top and bottom used for sync pulses and blanking) They therefore call the same HDTV systems 1125 and 750 - because there are 45 and 30 lines that don't carry picture information. (This is because the Japanese quote the system used to connect HDTV devices to HDTV displays, which use the full number of lines - not just the lines that have pictures)

750/60p and 720/60p are therefore actually identical - they just have different names in the different territories. Just as 1125/60i and 1080/60i are now identical too. (Originally, in the late 80s and early 90s, the Japanese used 1125 total lines, but only around 1030 of them were active - this changed a while back)

It is a bit like the difference between 525 line NTSC and 480/60i - they are the same video system - the 525 quotes the total number of lines, the 480 quotes just the number of lines that contain picture information.

The 1366x768 or 1360x768 format i mentioned earlier is sometimes called 768p, and it is not in the ps3 menu's list of resolutions. That's why i asked if it is possible to set it from the "Custom" resolution option.

The BD-ROM drive in the product has no impact on picture quality. Picture quality is determined by the video capabilities of the product and player's software (and, of course, the quality of the encoding on the disk).

At this time, we do not know how the software on the PS3 will compare to standalone players.

It should be mentioned though that the software in PS3 for BD playback will be upgradable throughout it's life, and the processing power to handle any such improvements will be readily available.

I think PS3 will make for decent BD playback... maybe not the best, at first, but respectable.

We'll know in around two days.

Thanks for your answer.

Can you explain how the "Custom" resolution option works? Like, do you have two fields to write the horizontal and vertical pixel numbers, or what? At what point does it refuse to set output to 1360x768?

The "Custom" option really just has a list of available resolutions, like (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p), it doesn't give you the option to enter anything manually. Personally I'm not sure what this option is for...

PS3 Manual (http://manuals.playstation.net/document/en/ps3/current/index.html)