the Kaleidescape cannot take you to 7-11 for a slurpee.

If you insist on using an automobile analogy, the K would be like the first auto company to employ an electric ignition. The electric ignition saved drivers all kinds of time and trouble. People no longer had to get out of the car, didn't have to have the muscle to turn the crank, could start the car in the rain while sitting in the car, etc.

K charges a premium because they are the first on the market -- they have the market to themselves at this point.

Ferarri doesn't charge a premium because they are the first and only car on the market.

No one gets in a Ferrari and says, "wow -- when I turned the key, it started. Even my five year old could work this thing!"

You experienced early versions of the software. Clicking and having a movie start is no longer a problem. So, if that is the big advantage of K, that advantage is gone.

When you say "start" does that involve FBI warnings, Disney trailers or getting to the menus in many cases and then selecting the movie again? Or does it involve jumping instantly to the first frame of the movie? (the studio logo usually)

If watching a TV series, does that involve jumping to the episode you want in a multi disc set? How about a movie that spans two DVD's... does that involve SEAMLESSLY going from one disc to the other?

How about bookmarking just the scenes you want and stringing them together seamlessly. Or having a seperate preference in each zone as to audio track to pull (if available) and which version of the movie (Widescreen/fullscreen) to watch if there are both on the disc.

All i am doing is pointing out that there is much more there than meets the eye. And these things are not done via any available data out there from AMG or others.

there is definitely more to K than simply the price premium. However, to me, those features you mention above are just NOT worth paying $20,000.00 for!!

and that is why you don't have one.

Value is personally defined. I am sure that you can afford it Tony, but for you, it is not worth it.

However, if it was installed in your house for a week, what value would your wife and kids place on it?

OK well than how about when the K informs your control system that the movie is almost over and begins to slowly riase the lights? Thats gotta be worth the 20K alone!


You gotta love those custom collections where you can store your home videos or personal collections. And lets not forget the password protected parental control...that I dont use but I'm sure it could be handy for some households

OK well than how about when the K informs your control system that the movie is almost over and begins to slowly riase the lights? Thats gotta be worth the 20K alone!


BTW, does it really do this? I thought I read that somewhere.

When you say "start" does that involve FBI warnings, Disney trailers or getting to the menus in many cases and then selecting the movie again? Or does it involve jumping instantly to the first frame of the movie? (the studio logo usually)


Well, that can't be done unless you can rip the movie, so it's a moot point because it's legally disallowed for their competitors.


If watching a TV series, does that involve jumping to the episode you want in a multi disc set? How about a movie that spans two DVD's... does that involve SEAMLESSLY going from one disc to the other?


Again, a legal advantage, only available if you can rip the content disc.


How about bookmarking just the scenes you want and stringing them together seamlessly.

A legal advantage, can only be done if you can rip the content to disc.


Or having a seperate preference in each zone as to audio track to pull (if available) and which version of the movie (Widescreen/fullscreen) to watch if there are both on the disc.


This can be done as long as you have a player that provides access about the available sound tracks back to the automation system. It doesn't require ripping to disc. Software players and serially controllable players will generally offer this information.

OK well than how about when the K informs your control system that the movie is almost over and begins to slowly riase the lights? Thats gotta be worth the 20K alone!


This is not hard to do. Any control system can do it as long as the player provides information on the current chapter and the number of chapters in the current title. When you get to the last chapter of the title, for a movie, that's going to be the credits. Any good automation system can watch for the chapter number to hit the last chapter of the current title and start raising the lights.

and that is why you don't have one.

Value is personally defined. I am sure that you can afford it Tony, but for you, it is not worth it.

However, if it was installed in your house for a week, what value would your wife and kids place on it?

Agreed, that is why I don't have one. As far as my wife and kids, I don't think they watch movies more than once, and once in a while at that, so Blockbuster works for that. We cancelled Netflix cause of the lack of interesting stuff after a while. I'm sorry, I know it's good product design, but I just can't access the value equation there at all.

If you insist on using an automobile analogy, the K would be like the first auto company to employ an electric ignition. The electric ignition saved drivers all kinds of time and trouble. People no longer had to get out of the car, didn't have to have the muscle to turn the crank, could start the car in the rain while sitting in the car, etc.

K charges a premium because they are the first on the market -- they have the market to themselves at this point.

Ferarri doesn't charge a premium because they are the first and only car on the market.

If Ferrari had a patent on the electric ignition, like Kaleidescape does or is in the process of recieving on their process for copying an encrypted dvd to a hard drive, you would have an analogy taht applies to this situation.

As far as my wife and kids, I don't think they watch movies more than once, and once in a while at that, so Blockbuster works for that.

If you or your family only watch a movie once than a media server is not for you.
I would say a DVD player is a much better choice.

Most of are mixing both music and movies, so if you already have it for music, it becomes less of an stretch to use it for movies as well. Though, that's an easier step if you are using a changer than it is if you want to set up an on-disc movie repository.

patent...like Kaleidescape does or is in the process of recieving...


The patent analogy is the microwave. Old spencer, the guy who invented the Microwave had a patent. That's why Amana is still the only ones making microwave ovens. No one else was ever able to get into the microwave biz.

When you say "start" does that involve FBI warnings

You know, it's funny. After I demoed the Kaleidescape, I thought to myself, "how am I going to live without this thing?!" But, a few days later, I realized, I am doing quite well without it. Then, I downloaded software for free from the web that approximates 90% of what K does and it has the features I would use 99.9% of the time. Can the software let you skip the FBI warnings? Yes. Can it skip the trailers? Yes. Does it make my coffee? No. Having all my movies on a media server with the ability to scroll through either cover art or titles and being able to click and have the film start is plenty convenient for me and my family. However, in my dedicated theater, which I am building, I will not use the software, I will load good old DVD's into a DVD player -- because I believe I will get a better picture that way. I'll have to wait through the FBI warnings and trailers -- so, what? Being able to skip the warning and trailers does not equate to a Ferrari in my mind. To me, it equates to a microwave. A regular oven takes an hour to make a baked potato, a microwave takes about 7 minutes -- that's convenience!

If watching a TV series

I watch very little TV. The TV I do watch; Sopranos, Curb Your Enthusiasm...I buy the DVD's.

All i am doing is pointing out that there is much more there than meets the eye.

I saw all of the whiz-bang things the K can do. It is not terribly difficult to get a demo. I've actually demoed it a couple of times. I went to one install where a guy had a trick non-fogging two-way mirror in his shower that allowed him to access his Kaleidescape while he shampoos and rinses. Yep -- he could start the film in his theater, pause it, start it again in the shower, finish it in his master bedroom, etc.

I have zero interest in this. When I watch a film, I settle in and watch it from beginning to end with no interruptions.

But, if you're into the sort of thing that K enables you to do, K (plus Crestron) makes it really easy -- and -- right now -- K has the (legal) market all to themselves.

my point on a TV series was the ability to load all the discs in and then select the episode you want.

And your point is the perfect response.

YOu saw it, loved it, but felt that in the end, you could come up with a solution that was all you needed.

In the long run, all the systems will force everybody to have better and better quality and features which is good for us all.

So it's seems to me entirely within precedent to patent the discovery of processes whose purposes are to satisfy a set of legal conditions, particularly if they encompass a sequence of technical measures.
A patent usually expires in 20 years, so that people can freely perform the process that was patented. However, people cannot freely perform the process if part of it (CSS) is perpetually monopolized (by the DVDCCA). So, in this case, is it justifiable to grant a patent in the first place?

It protects the process aside fom the DVDCCA because who knows what the future will hold for the DVD CCA.

However, people cannot freely perform the process if part of it (CSS) is perpetually monopolized (by the DVDCCA). So, in this case, is it justifiable to grant a patent in the first place?Why not? When K's patents expire, everyone will be free to duplicate their security model and implement CSS-compliant servers. And assuming K prevails in the DVDCCA lawsuit, I don't think DVDCCA will be justified in denying new server manufacturers licenses for hardware that is proven to be compliant with K's model, for antitrust reasons.

Besides, by the time K's patents expire, CSS will likely be obsolete, and therefore the value of this particular aspect of K's technology will be greatly diminished. I think it's reasonable to suppose that by, say, 2021, AACS-based discs will have supplanted CSS-based discs, and K's work doesn't cover AACS-compliant media servers. And who knows, by then, AACS itself might be supplanted by some sort of DRM tuned for online delivery.

Besides, by the time K's patents expire, CSS will likely be obsolete, and therefore the value of this particular aspect of K's technology will be greatly diminished. I think it's reasonable to suppose that by, say, 2021, AACS-based discs will have supplanted CSS-based discs, and K's work doesn't cover AACS-compliant media servers. And who knows, by then, AACS itself might be supplanted by some sort of DRM tuned for online delivery.


For the purposes of this market, I think it'll happen way before that. Think about it. You can spend $25K for system X for your DVDs. OR, you can spend $5K or $8K for system Y or Z, but you have to use AACS based discs. That itself will drive this market away from DVD I would think. This is what I was getting at in a previous post. If MS makes no attempt (should K win) to get into the legally ripping DVD's business, and therefore this DVD server market doesn't open up, then you'll have K on one side with DVD support and everyone else on the other side with AACS support.

So what'll be the difference? Yeh, you have to buy new content, but if you are the kind of person likely to be in this market you were probably going to do that anyway since you probably have a nice, HD ready theater that can take advantage of it. And the difference in price (unless K's prices plummet) would make up the difference anyway. If you are looking to upgrade to HD content anyway, you'd just end up paying $25K plus the cost of buying new discs. The K system would allow you to do that incrementally, but you have to pay $25K up front.

So it seems to me that, as long as the content starts showing up at some reasonable pace, that with a couple years we'll hit a level of availability of popular content in AACS compatible format that will allow for a pure AACS based movie server market, and then (for this high end market anyway) I think that K's monopoly will become pretty tenous and almost completely irrelevant once all new releases are showing up in AACS format and a reasonable amount of the popular back-catalogue is available.

Why not? When K's patents expire, everyone will be free to duplicate their security model and implement CSS-compliant servers.
My point is that everyone won't be free to duplicate it, because people will still need to get a license from the DVDCCA, even if they will no longer need to get one from Kaleidescape. If any license is required, it is not free.

And since when is the ability to "freely" duplicate something a legal requirement for patentability? Seems pretty silly to me. Is the patent holder required to cover all the costs of implementation for you, or just the license fee?

Oh, and I might add: on what legal grounds can the DVDCAA force you to require a license? (Well, the DMCA, yes, but before that.) Patents, of course.

If MS makes no attempt (should K win) to get into the legally ripping DVD's business, and therefore this DVD server market doesn't open up, then you'll have K on one side with DVD support and everyone else on the other side with AACS support.


Actually, you would have K on one side and everybody INCLUDING K on the other side. Basically everybody would be on the same side with K offering the exclusive ability to legally work with DVD support.


So what'll be the difference? Yeh, you have to buy new content, but if you are the kind of person likely to be in this market you were probably going to do that anyway since you probably have a nice, HD ready theater that can take advantage of it. And the difference in price (unless K's prices plummet) would make up the difference anyway. If you are looking to upgrade to HD content anyway, you'd just end up paying $25K plus the cost of buying new discs. The K system would allow you to do that incrementally, but you have to pay $25K up front.

So it seems to me that, as long as the content starts showing up at some reasonable pace, that with a couple years we'll hit a level of availability of popular content in AACS compatible format that will allow for a pure AACS based movie server market, and then (for this high end market anyway) I think that K's monopoly will become pretty tenous and almost completely irrelevant once all new releases are showing up in AACS format and a reasonable amount of the popular back-catalogue is available.

Well, that is assuming that all K does is to offer storage of the bits. They offer more than that, however. Scripting is a great feature that isn't available on all the other platforms yet and those that do have scripting don't have a system that is as easy to use as K's. The measured exact aspect ratio information is something that nobody else has even considered offering and so that is likely to remain a Kaleidescape exclusive.

Granted, it is easy to look at the extra features Kaleidescape has that others don't and figure that others can copy them and they would then be on the same level, but you cannot fairly assume that other companies will get to copy Kaleidescape's current features without giving Kaleidescape the benefit of the doubt that they will have new features developed to continue to give them an advantage. It is a horse race without a finish line, so eventually everybody will
"get to that point" but by the time they do, the lead horse will be way past that point anyway. The bar keeps getting raised and Kaleidescape is doing a lot if not most of the raising themselves.

You assume that those features are worth the extra bucks to everyone, but they won't be. They'll only be worth it to a very small number of customers, compared to the number that would be interested in a device that does 85% as much for 15% or 25% or 30% of the cost. If someone delivers that, and they can create, say, a 5 million unit worldwide market, at $4K a pop, that's what 20 billion bucks? I don't know what size K is, but it seems to me that the real money lies in delivering a good 85% solution t a lot more people.

What if one day K came out with a 5K version?????

Kaleidescape certainly has the best interface, so if two systems were equal money I would have to bet that Kaleidescape would get a lion's share of the business. The only thing the other systems have offered is additional features like photo storage or DVR features - things that I believe Kaleidescape will come out with if the market shows that is important enough to warrant. Kaleidescape rolled out music - I would have to assume they have other services they will be releasing in the future.

My first TiVo was $399 + $250 for the lifetime fee. My first HD TiVo was $999. They are both much less money now.

What if one day K came out with a 5K version?????


Well, for one thing, most of their premium model business strategies would have to go, and they'd have to do things very differently. It would be a tricky thing for them. Companies that live in the high right world often have troubles dealing with the lower/lefter market. If they bring out a lower end product, and most of their customers end on that, then can they continue to finance the work to create a superior product for a much lower price (where they are competing with many more companies and have much less opportunity to differentiate and still keep the cost low.)

This isn't rocket science on my part, it's pretty standard concerns for that type of company when much lower overhead companies begin encroaching on their previously pretty safe market.

I say... Lexus, TOyota, Scion.

How can all three coexist based on similar frames?

I'm not sure that's really an apples and oranges comparison. They didn't get to where they are by selling Lexi and then decided to sell Toyotas. They went the other way around, and had a very large and broad revenue stream from the regular card market before they moved into the high end. But now many car companies have gone the other way? Not that it probably matters since I don't think there's much comparison between the two worlds. But it always seems to be a harder row to hoe for companies to come down from the very high end and field successful products for the masses. I'm sure it's happened, but it doesn't seem like it happens a lot. Seems like someone like Sony would have the better chance of doing something like this, since their just saying they are going to do it will help to create the market they want to sell into.

Anyway, this is all very speculative. The point that I want to make is that, for this market, once all the new stuff is coming out in AACS compliant form, the AACS hardware is in place, and a the back catalogue of titles starts to fill up a bit, then the market will become open to other players and the playing field will be more level for others to compete without being closed out by a purely legal advantage.

True, but while they leveraged one brand into the next, they used the lessons learned and the base technologies to enhance all.

Remember that when you have enough features, one can theoretically sell a scaled back version and provide good value while not undercutting the Lexus.

I have one thing to say- STAR WARS!
Kaleidescape will have every aacs system beat becasue George Lucas will not release star wars in hd- whatever disk for 20 years!

(joking)

And since when is the ability to "freely" duplicate something a legal requirement for patentability? Seems pretty silly to me.
People should be able to freely perform the process after the patent expires. I don't see anything silly about that.

I noticed that you put the term "freely" in quotes. In case it is not clear, I'm using the term "freely" to mean "without having to license it from anyone."
Is the patent holder required to cover all the costs of implementation for you, or just the license fee?
Neither, of course.

Before the patent expires, people cannot legally perform the process unless they license it from the patent owner. After the patent expires, nobody owns the patent, so people should be able to legally perform the process without having to license it from anyone.
Oh, and I might add: on what legal grounds can the DVDCAA force you to require a license? (Well, the DMCA, yes, but before that.) Patents, of course.
I am under the impression that the DVDCCA does not own any patents, but merely licenses CSS as a trade secret (even though it is no longer a trade secret).

People should be able to freely perform the process after the patent expires. I don't see anything silly about that.OK, I concede whether or not the point is "silly" is a matter of opinion. But whether or not it is *lawful* to patent something like this is another matter. And I'm simply unaware of any legal precedent for the condition that the patented process must be freely implementable after the patent expires.
Neither, of course.My point is, of course, that implementing a process is rarely free, in terms of money. So the fact that licensing issues add to those costs doesn't really seem like a significant issue.Before the patent expires, people cannot legally perform the process unless they license it from the patent owner. After the patent expires, nobody owns the patent, so people should be able to legally perform the process without having to license it from anyone.The patent is only on K's particular approach to the process of CSS-compliant media server deployment. It could very well be that there are other methods for satisfing the conditions of the CSS license agreement that don't tread on K's patents.

Besides, even if it were true that K's approach is the only viable option, the total licensing costs are still going down upon expiration of the patent; before expiration, money goes to DVDCCA and K; afterwards, it goes only to DVDCCA.I am under the impression that the DVDCCA does not own any patents, but merely licenses CSS as a trade secret (even though it is no longer a trade secret).Hmm, you may be right about that. Seems silly that they can still claim trade secret protection now, given that the cat is out of the bag. I doubt that AACS will rely solely on trade secret protection; once bitten twice shy... then again, in the US at least, they have the DMCA.

I have one thing to say- STAR WARS!
Kaleidescape will have every aacs system beat becasue George Lucas will not release star wars in hd- whatever disk for 20 years!

(joking)

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?print_page=y&section_id=4&article_id=694&page_number=4&preview=

Ponder that...

It's interesting that Lucas only has 500 DVD's in his library.

OK, I concede whether or not the point is "silly" is a matter of opinion. But whether or not it is *lawful* to patent something like this is another matter. And I'm simply unaware of any legal precedent for the condition that the patented process must be freely implementable after the patent expires.
Quote from http://www.eccosite.org/patent.html
"One requirement of patent law is that all the details of an invention must be publicly disclosed. For disclosure to be adequate, an invention must be described in sufficient detail to permit a person skilled in the art to reproduce it."

So, for K's process to be patented, wouldn't K have to publicly disclose how CSS works, since K's process involves CSS? However, if K did that, wouldn't K be violating their CSS license (beyond what K is already being sued for), since CSS is supposed to be a trade secret?
My point is, of course, that implementing a process is rarely free, in terms of money. So the fact that licensing issues add to those costs doesn't really seem like a significant issue.
It's not just about the money to pay for a license. It's also about the restrictions that the license imposes, which is what the CSS license does.

So, for K's process to be patented, wouldn't K have to publicly disclose how CSS works, since K's process involves CSS? However, if K did that, wouldn't K be violating their CSS license (beyond what K is already being sued for), since CSS is supposed to be a trade secret?


Good point.

So, for K's process to be patented, wouldn't K have to publicly disclose how CSS works, since K's process involves CSS?Gotta give you an "A" for effort; but no, not necessarily.

For example, the patent could cover any process that is identical save for the exact encryption used on the data in question. That would be specific enough to allow anyone skilled in the art to implement the system, substituting some sort of test cipher in place of CSS to see if it works as expected; then, when they are satisfied that it does, they can license CSS and the patent from K to get it all working.

Alternately, it could be that they only patented that portion of the process that follows the CSS decryption step. (That step is likely being performed by an off-the-shelf transport anyway.) Thus the invention itself might not involve CSS at all.

I fail to see why the css decryption sould have to be done before the dvd was copied to teh hd anyway. Doesn't K take an image of the disk, regardless of copyprotection, and then decrypt it to play it from their hd?

That's my understanding of it. They are just putting a raw image of the DVD on disk, and then playing it back with a player that's playing it off the disk, and the player as usual does the decryption for playback.

This is an awkward time for such products that will slow down future sales making this an important hurdle to over come for such a company. If K is successful with early adoption their efforts would surly benefit other companies.
For those who are not a fan of stand alone DVD players & like many who have been using home brew servers for years but to date never considered jumping on board with such a product if resolution came fast that may jump start interest for many who previously never considered such an investment. A good thing for K & Im sure they see the potential to add HD DVD as fast as possible.
As optimistic as many are in this thread Im sadly betting this thread will still be active one year from today but I hope Im wrong. The sooner this happens the better for everyone.

That's my understanding of it. They are just putting a raw image of the DVD on disk, and then playing it back with a player that's playing it off the disk, and the player as usual does the decryption for playback.Ah, yes, I think you're right. So then I need to modify my response above: perhaps they have patented the security model they employ up to but not including the final CSS decryption step. So again, the actual trade-secret-protected CSS portion is not included in the patented process, and therefore does not need to be disclosed in the patent. Thus the "invention" can still be built and tested without knowledge of CSS by feeding it dummy data.

If you store an ISO image of the disc on the server, then your player needs to remove the CSS to play back the video. This would then require a license from the DVD CCA - something that only Kaleidescape has gone out and accquired.

Ah, yes, I think you're right. So then I need to modify my response above: perhaps they have patented the security model they employ up to but not including the final CSS decryption step. So again, the actual trade-secret-protected CSS portion is not included in the patented process, and therefore does not need to be disclosed in the patent. Thus the "invention" can still be built and tested without knowledge of CSS by feeding it dummy data.
CSS is not just about decryption. It's also about authentication, which is the process that allows the player to read the disc in the first place, before it is decrypted.

Anyway, it seems that the invention takes advantage of a loophole in the CSS system. Could the dummy system be created to have the same loophole, even without any knowledge of CSS and its loophole?

If you store an ISO image of the disc on the server, then your player needs to remove the CSS to play back the video. This would then require a license from the DVD CCA - something that only Kaleidescape has gone out and accquired.


Every player is licensed to do that, else they couldn't play DVDs. The only difference here is that it's being read from a hard drive instead of from a DVD. And I assume it's not an ISO file it's just a replication of the contents of the DVD as is, raw data, into a directory on the hard drive.

And I assume it's not an ISO file it's just a replication of the contents of the DVD as is, raw data, into a directory on the hard drive.
Isn't that what an ISO file is, a raw image of the disc data?

Yeh, it is. And if you are going to use a standard player that thinks it's reading a literal DVD, you might need to go that route and just mount the ISO as a drive. If you created your own player, then you'd have more flexibility as to how you do it. Not sure which way they went, but conceptually, for our purposes here it's all the same.

Could the dummy system be created to have the same loophole, even without any knowledge of CSS and its loophole?This sentence makes no semantic sense. It is not the system itself that has a loophole; it is CSS's license agreement. That license agreement requires that the manufacturer of a DVD playback device design their system to meet certain security conditions, in order that it may "safely" receive CSS protected content without risk of being cracked. What the K implements is a procedure for the secure storage and transmission of data, and the hardware to accomplish it, that satisfies those very conditions.

Now that the design has been done, you do not need to know what the conditions were that motivated it in order to replicate the design. It's like cooking a new dish by following a recipe, while having no idea whatsoever why that particular combination of ingredients were chosen.

So yes, it is absolutely plausible that the patent could provide sufficient detail in how to implement K's security model---it just can't explain why the specific set of choices were made.

This sentence makes no semantic sense. It is not the system itself that has a loophole; it is CSS's license agreement. That license agreement requires that the manufacturer of a DVD playback device design their system to meet certain security conditions, in order that it may "safely" receive CSS protected content without risk of being cracked. What the K implements is a procedure for the secure storage and transmission of data, and the hardware to accomplish it, that satisfies those very conditions.
I am under the impression that the loophole is in the CSS Specification, not in the CSS License Agreement, which are two different documents. As I understand it, the CSS License Agreement obligates K to make players that are compliant with the CSS Specification, and the CSS Specification is what actually describes CSS (including the "trade secrets"). Supposedly K found a loophole within the CSS Specification. So K believes that their players are still compliant with the CSS Specification, and thus K is not violating the CSS License Agreement.

Does that make sense?

Yes, I think that makes sense. I was improperly conflating the two (the Specification and the License Agreement).

I don't think, however, that this conflation invalidates my argument---that the loophole is in the specification, not the system itself; and that it is plausible for the patent to describe K's security model without revealing the trade secrets DVDCCA is seeking to protect.

Whew..... what a long read!

So here's my $.02 - Very rarely will a product sustain a monopoly in the United States today. Eventually the law suit will have to be settled, one way or the other. If it's settled in favor of K, that opens the flood gates for people to make their own K style boxes. Really, from a technical standpoint there is not all that much that prevents you from creating the hardware functionality, legally, that K gives you. You can store the discs, encrypted, on your drives in a format that would prevent someone else from popping them into a computer and taking the data. Now, if K has a patent on the only process (can't patent an Idea - and I doubt there's only one process to do this) you could wait 17 years and start making K's with your own software and CSS license and charge what ever you thought was necessary to make a profit.
Yes, the K software is nice, it's what makes the product "just work" and in and of it's self is 90% of the appeal. Well on the other hand, they are gouging their customers if Mr.Poindexter's HT Construction thread is right. $950 for a 500GB hd unit is almost more than 3 times suggested retail (350 - can be had for 275). I understand you pay for the 'package' but if your going to sell things individually you can't let people realize that they are paying 3x the standard rate for their storage. Before anyone accuses me of being another cost-value basher let me just say that I am not upset that they aren't charging the pricewatch price or even the retail price. I am saying that with an almost 200% margin on a product that they didn't put any effort into means there is a whole lot of room in the market place.

Assume for a minute if you will that the lawsuit is dismissed against K, then any other manufacturer can apply for a CSS license - assuming they at least live up to K's protection levels they can't deny them or they could sue for unfair trade practices. Really, the only thing protecting K right now, silly as it is, is the law suit. To come into the market now and compete would be stupid as you would quickly be named a co-defendant and have to fight the legal battle. It seems funny to say, but K should be thanking their lucky stars they have this legal battle right now.

OK- so:

If the lawsuit is settled, other manufacturers could either wait until K's patents expire, invent another process for copying dvds to a hard disk based device that does not violate K's patents, or license the technology from K. I think K would have a heck of a lot to gain financially by licensing their patent to a lot of manufacturers- pioneer, sony, etc. To do what they do.

Waiting 15 more years to offer a Kaleidescape system pretty much won't work. You might as well wait another 7 years to start selling your first HDTV decoder box and TV set. A 17 year patent in the technology industry is HUGE!

My construction thread is correct, but you are off on the gouging. First off, yes you can get a 500GB drive for $275. However, it is worth noting that price is for a raw drive. Kaleidescape doesn't sell raw drives - they sell drives in a hot swappable enclosure that is more sophisticated than the enclosures on our enterprise-class server at work. They are also offering an extended warranty on that drive with advance replacement via Fedex. You do not get that off of pricewatch.

You assume there is no effort into this, but that isn't true. There is the custom hot swap housing, there is the monitoring and there is also going to have to be a small margin for the dealer unless you propose they work for free. The margin on Kaleidescape drives is actually smaller than any other physical item I sell.

Any manufacturer can apply for a CSS license now - they just do not choose to. Living up to Kaleidescape's protection level is easier said than done. Putting together a windows PC with off the shelf components isn't going to have the same level of protection.

I don't know too many people who would say "Gee, thank god I got sued - that really made my business model better."

Poindexter, since you read this thread, check this out:
http://www.edn.com/blog/400000040/post/1390003139.html

didn't your HD camcorder have 1080p capability? The guy who writes the blog above claims no.
You should go refute him on his blog.
Secondly, pm me with your address so I can send you a dvd with your content.
Third, what model of camcorder was that?

<apologies for off-topic post>

Tony,

That guy is claiming there is no 1080p60 source, which is true for anything outside of computer generated content. I don't know who thinks they are getting 1080p60 though. People want 1080p because they want the full 1920x1080.

My camera does 1080p24, 1080p24A, 1080p30sf (1080i from 1080p30 basically), 1080i60 (true interlaced source fields), 720p60, 720p30, 720p24, 720p24N and a whole slew of variable frame rates at 720p, as well as a lot of 480p/i options.

So, my camcorder does 1080p as do many professional and industrial units (To the best of my knowledge, there are no consumer or "prosumer" cameras that do 1080p at any frame rate and none do variable frame rate HD aside from mine and the Vari-Alta which is about $75K last I checked). No cameras do 1080p60 which doesn't really matter much since 1080p60 isn't in the ATSC spec for HDTV! 1080p24 is a production format. 1080i60 is a broadcast format. 1080p60 is a computer desktop format.

thx, that helps clear things up.

I posted on his blog explaining the error of his opinion that 1080p60 input isn't important. Even without the promise of ANY content for all time it will be a good thing to have just to allow outboard scalers.

Good, thanks.

Since no one has posted in this thread since we actually got HD DVD and Blu-ray, I was curious what dealers that sell the stuff are hearing from K about the future of HD DVD and Blu-ray on a KSERVER. CEDIA didn't seem to reveal anything. Anyone got a scoop?

Actually my feedback from CEDIA was a letdown. I was told by one engineer that he'd prefer that neither format gets hold and everything goes to downloads. Regarding the potential of doing DVD audio multichannel downloaded from music giants and outputted via hdmi, no interest either.

i love how rumours and unknowledgeable stuff gets spread.

if you go to their website you can read this http://kaleidescape.com/faq/#faq522

THe reality is that it will be a while before either format is a mainstream solution with plenty of titles. and as they say in the FAQ, all the final licensing is not yet done. So any solution announced by anyone is premature and possibly out of date in one month.

The reality also is that the downloadable content will take hold far faster. And has FAR more potential for those who can look at the industry and get a good feel for where we are headed.

i love how rumours and unknowledgeable stuff gets spread.

if you go to their website you can read this http://kaleidescape.com/faq/#faq522

THe reality is that it will be a while before either format is a mainstream solution with plenty of titles. and as they say in the FAQ, all the final licensing is not yet done. So any solution announced by anyone is premature and possibly out of date in one month.

The reality also is that the downloadable content will take hold far faster. And has FAR more potential for those who can look at the industry and get a good feel for where we are headed.

Rumours and unknowledgeable? I was told this POINT BLANK, the engineer I spoke to quite frankly "would prefer for none of those formats to succeed in favour of Downloaded content." I was expecting a more proactive CAN DO attitude from my query, that is why I felt a bit of a let down.

What is wrong with that answer? Downloadable is a better long term solution, and they have already stated that they are going to build BR and HD DVD solutions.

How is their answer non "can-do"?

I absolutely agree with Chris here. Everyone is entitles to their own format preference, even someone who works for a company like K. Unless that engineer is making business and/or product development decisions, his preference is nothing more than that and isn't influencing the product roadmap. It's just his opinion, nothing more. K has clearly stated for some time that they intendt to support BR and HD-DVD.

Jeff

Downloadable content sucks. You can't hold the disc with the disc case.
J/K

Personally, I prefer to buy a movie in the store because I like to collect the things. And I reallyhope we get an announcemnt from Keleidescape on the issus soon, It would factor in to apurchasing decision for me significantly.

While we all like the physical disc, there are realities of downloadable content like if you lose the disc... you could (possibly) just download it again, the other thing for the content side is that with downloadable, you have the same flexibility and possiblity of what you can get your hands on as you do with Itunes or the like.

Imagine the smaller producers making great films with no big distribution deals... no problem to get their stuff with downloadable. TV shows, etc. the possibilities are endless.

Personally, I prefer to buy a movie in the store because I like to collect the things. And I reallyhope we get an announcemnt from Keleidescape on the issus soon, It would factor in to apurchasing decision for me significantly.

The entire hardware industry, including Kaleidescape, can't implement HD-DVD and BR copy/streaming support until a final AACS agreement is issued that includes the MMC provision. I haven't heard about much progress on that front and am starting to wonder when it will finally be approved.

Jeff

But meanwhile Apple and Google and abc and others all have possible solutions.

I am worried about standards bot being conformed ot- for example, "near dvd quality" on itunes movies- that is why I won't buy them on itunes. Giv eme exact dvd quality, or exact blu ray quality, and I will be happy.

The entire hardware industry, including Kaleidescape, can't implement HD-DVD and BR copy/streaming support until a final AACS agreement is issued that includes the MMC provision. I haven't heard about much progress on that front and am starting to wonder when it will finally be approved.

Jeff


MC is definitely a go. Not sure about the mandatory part. :(

well, it's been a while, so I thought I would bump this up- where the heck is managed copy protection? I thought that was going to be implemented by these new disks?

Not that I was ever close to buying, but I would quite unhappy had I invested in a K system, given that it's hard to watch a DVD after becoming quickly accustomed to HD-DVD... especially so when the hardware to deliver the video bits for DVD is 100X what is is for the HD-DVD (yeah, I know I have to physically go to change the HD DVD). Ouch.

K must be in a real pinch ....

I'm not so pessimistic. I'm sure the studios aren't liking it, but I also don't think you want to bet against Microsoft getting the MC situation ultimately hammered out.

The entire technology, both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, just seems to be rolling out slowly, far more slowly than I expected. I mean, didn't the Sony standalone Blu-Ray player just debut today? And the first-gen Toshiba player threw a great picture but it was a clunker inside.

I agree.... given the impressive jump in picture quality and availability of cheap HDTV sets, you'd expect far more players and content... at least Hollywood should push everyone towards this new format which can't be ripped....

But eventually it will be rippable- in fact, it's mathematically certain that it will eventually be rippable just like dvds are now. So why don't they move now to introduce legal managed copy and put the tech out there- allowing companies to build the massive media servers and Kaleidescape to move on it with their existing product? Frustrating...

IMHO, I believe that downloadable formats will succeed and the BR/HD-DVD will die. None-the-less, I also believe that K is making a huge error by not offering, at a minimum, the ability to play (not rip) HD content DVDs as a part of their product offering.

I also believe K (and their competitors) are making a huge mistake by (1) not allowing their servers to provide header data output over their control "channels"; and, (2) not allowing users to enter their own "preference" data into the library with each DVD. What I am driving at is the ability to "read" the aspect ratio (2.35:1 for example) and make that available to the control system allowing systems to automatically configure the playback system (or, the user preference for DD or DTS - or other - on a particular move or music CD).

When I spoke to K about these consumer, custom installer, friendly items their basic responses were (1) we're selling enough of these that we don't need to make feature changes; and, (2) we know more about what the consumer needs than the consumer so we'll do what we think is best for the consumer.

Allowing users to store "preference data" for each DVD should probably rank at 1 on a level of 1 to 100 of features K should be concerned with. That would be of interest to about 0001% of their buyers. The entire point of the K is load and forget. Even most uber geeks put in a disc and if it's DD they listen in their preferred DD mode on their processor and if it's DTS they listen in their preferred DTS mode on their processor. I also think there *might* be a way to accomplish this with the current setup but I would have to play with it. Even if K did allow "preference data" you'd still have to program the control system to grab that preference data and select the preferred surround mode. But heck, why stop there? Might as well also make sure the control system grabs the data and selects the proper contrast setting depending on whether it's a dark move or a sports movie :). And of course we'd want to store different bass curves for each movie. I'm not being sarcastic....if you are going to use preference data you might as well allow the .0001 people to use it for what they want.

I remember a Bang & Olufsen TV that allowed separate tint settings for every TV channel. No one ever used it but it was a nice feature to talk about.

As far as aspect ratio goes this has been possible with the K for some time and is one of the greatest things about it. The K stores precise aspect ratio info and DOES allow multiple aspect ratio systems to go to the precise aspect ratio for every movie. They have an exceptionally thorough serial protocol right on their sight fopr anyone that wants to download it.

K must be in a real pinch ....

ACTUALLY MORE INTEREST THAN EVER, WE SEE PEOPLE BUILDING THEATERS AROUND THEM.

As far as aspect ratio goes this has been possible with the K for some time and is one of the greatest things about it. The K stores precise aspect ratio info and DOES allowing multiple aspect ratio systems to go to the precise aspect ratio for every movie. They have an exceptionally thorough serial protocol right on their sight fopr anyone that wants to download it.

RUN THROUGH THE CRESTRON SYSTEM, IT WORKS FANTASTICLLY WELL.

It's the "scripts" that make it soooo much fun!

They do have HD content on them available from K themselves (nature programs currently) and I have been told that all they need to do HDdvd or Blue Ray is a differant reader.

Yes, scripts are truly a blast!

Dennis, I agree with your statement, but SPEAKING ONLY OF CINEMASCOPE: what type of control are you concerned with? 4-way masking data for say 2.34, 2.39 etc., or scaler memory data (were all you need to do is re scale fill the screen height and adjust side masking) which one? Or both?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am going to stick this in here since the 2.35 CIH forum is populated by do it yourselfers.

In the process of designing a 2.37 AR Torus, Grant Stewart asked yesterday my thoughts about their new Cinemascope screen strategy to start with a 2.40 AR screen and adjustable side masking in between it and 2.33(?). I am seeking to solidify my position before I reply.

I don't know but to me you have a PJ with a 1.77 panel and you are introducing an
anamorphic lens with a 1.33 stretch that yields a 2.37 image.

That 2.37 image is always going to fill the screen from side to side, in the case of a 2.35 original aspect ratio film, the top and bottom will be slightly overscanned and cropped by the blanking circuit. In the case of a 2.40 image (projected unto this 2.37 screen) there is going to be black bars above and bellow.

The ideal way to fill the image height would be with a servo zoom and refocus memory, but that is only available in the top of the line ceinema DLP. So we are essentially stuck with using scaler presets.

SEEMS TO ME: Since the scaler is going to be used anyways to compensate for these minute variances WHY IS THE SIDE MASKING MECHANICAL FINE TUNING NEEDED?

But eventually it will be rippable- in fact, it's mathematically certain that it will eventually be rippable just like dvds are now.I disagree. By "mathematically certain" I assume you mean that it will be "cracked", but I doubt it. Even DVD's weren't cracked per se; rather, someone stole the key from a poorly written piece of software. Same with DVD-Audio. And there's no way AACS is going to be cracked by brute force, so it's going to take a similar backdoor or social engineering effort to pull it off. But something tells me the AACS designers have worked on that hole as well.So why don't they move now to introduce legal managed copy and put the tech out there- allowing companies to build the massive media servers and Kaleidescape to move on it with their existing product? Frustrating...Because your premise was wrong :) Seriously, all of this optimism about the ability to crack HD-DVD and Blu-Ray is misplaced. It's a powerful piece of protection technology, for better or worse. I genuinely believe that BD/HD-DVD will be obsolete before any sort of unauthorized bit-for-bit copies are successfully made. I do hope, however, that before either happens, Microsoft and the other pro-MC interests get on the stick and force the AACS MC specs to completion.

The argument that "everything is going to be cracked" is superfluous. People who make it usually give examples to prove their case, conveniently overlooking examples that don't prove their case. One such example is DirecTV. Just a few years ago everyone and their uncle was receiving every channel for free by programming their own cards or having a friend do it for them. I worked on one project where every single construction worker on the job had a hacked DirecTV receiver. Now all the DirecTV hacks have been all but shut down and no one hacks it any more. I'm sure at some point someone may hack it again, but for now the hackers appear to have been shut down.

ACTUALLY MORE INTEREST THAN EVER, WE SEE PEOPLE BUILDING THEATERS AROUND THEM.

Until the theatre owners see their first HD DVD, and then get real upset when they find out their new shiny $30k treats HD DVD's no different than a coffee table coaster. I suppose if they put a HD DVD reader in their end terminals, then that would be one workaround.... not pleasant, but no worse.

Hi

I for on have a hard time watching SD DVD.. I just acquired a BD player, could not wait any longer... If I were to buy anything over 10K it must play the higher definition formats... K may have to take a long look at these... The fact that they are selling right now means nothing for their survival...
I have begun to assemble a substantial number of DVD and a way to conveniently play them would be nice K interface is simply wonderful, the best I have seen. While it is relatively easy to assemble a PC-based box that stores DVDs... K-scape logical and instinctive interface is not easy to design and have working reliably day in and out... Is it worth the price? .. I can only answer by saying that so far I have seen none that approaches it but the lack of support for the higher definition formats make it a "no" for me.

Given the lack of friends that K probably made among some of the folks who are in a position to give such a thing the thumbs up, by forcing the issue in court over the SD ripping issue, maybe they aren't in a big hurry to move forward. How much are they really losing in sales by holding off? Probably not very much. How much sleep would they lose if K went under because they have no path forward? Probably not very much.

So tell me again how offering HD playback compatability only - no storage, no metadata, no script support, etc would be more advantageous to Kaleidescape users than having a separate player? Let's also not forget that no one has a server solution for next gen formats, no one has a multi-disc changer and no one even has a universal player yet. Sorry guys, but given the format war uncertainty, the ridiculously small library size available at this point and the fact that no one else is doing it and leaving them behind, I just don't see the immediate need. When MMC drops, K will be onboard.

There may very well be users whose SD libraries are collecting dust now that next gen formats are here, but would these folks really be potential K customers given the small library sizes?

Jeff

Dean, the only problem with your theory is that K is far from the only company with a vested interest in managed copy---it'snot even the largest or most influential one.

So to "take out" K, the DVD Forum would have to take out all these other companies as well. They're going to be prevented by antitrust from applying a different standard to K that they do to everyone else---at least, not if they want to avoid another losing lawsuit.

In other words, once Microsoft and others get what they want, K will get it as well.

Dean, the only problem with your theory is that K is far from the only company with a vested interest in managed copy---it'snot even the largest or most influential one.

But that's kind of the point... Those companies will hardly suffer that badly if it doesn't happen soon. They may be peeved, but MS has a few other sources of income. And, as I said, how much are the studios really losing by putting it off? Probably very little right now. K, OTOH, will suffer pretty significantly from it.

And K can hardly complain very much about someone else getting an unfair advantage by a special deal in this area, since they've benefited from an enormous unfair advantage in the SD area.

Not saying it's the case, just enaging in conspiracy theory scuttlebutt.

given the average apparent IQ in Hollywood, I would not be sanguine about the 'right' thing getting done here. Unfortunately for K.

Dean, your point is well taken; i.e., that K stands to be hurt more than Microsoft by delays in rollout. But "unfair advantage" in the SD arena? Can't agree with that.

As for the 'right' thing being done---well, I'm certainly not counting on everyone being good little boys and girls and keeping their promises. Rather I'm counting on them asserting their selfish interests.

rant

I love all the speculation about how K will suffer.

With Full Disclosure, i worked there for a year. I parted company about 8 months ago and in all honesty, could very easily find axes to grind and talk about all the things i saw them doing "wrong" And i own stock.

K grows month to month and year to year. The "wrong" decisions keep resulting in more sales and a more robust product. THe guy who is the CEO has built two VERY succesful companies in the past and goes to work in his personal JET. So i think that even though while i was there i thought that some decisions might be off... nobody can doubt the results. Just ask any of the customers here about what is wrong with the product, and you will find nothing but glowing praise. THey do things that most other manufacturers cannot even fathom.

So all of these theories about their imminent demise, and all the things they do wrong are laughable. They have done EVERYTHING right. THey just may not do things that you like. But their customers just sit back and enjoy their systems.

So they do not have BD or HD DVD yet... so friggin what! They will, either playback, or storage of titles once that possibility is realized. And there are other things they can do down the pipe that are even cooler. Besides, what happens to the companies that try to always be the first adopter... they screw up and have products that tarnish their name.

The reality is that K REALLY knows their audience and they build the single greatest video appliance in the market. Even though some people may laugh at the cost, or the lack of support for a format that cannot yet be fully supported, but if you have seen a proper demo, you cannot deny how awesome the thing is.

To paraphrase what one potential customer said after seeing a demo...

" I would mow f'n lawns to pay for one of these"

/rant

And there are other things they can do down the pipe that are even cooler.

I would like to hear more on this. :) Is 10-bit HD content delivery via net/portable drive in the pipeline?

I in NO WAY speak for K here.

10 bit HD is so far off the radar of 99.9999999999999999% of the HD viewing planet (and honestly the benefit it would provide to most displays is negligible) THat it would not make sense for any manufacturer to even draw up a plan around it.

In reality, all they (or any other manufacturer) can really do is try to provide whatever is on the disc to the display in the cleanest manner possible.

If 10 Bit content ever shows up (HD SDI off a D-5 does not count!) then most manufacturers will provide it.

yeah, but K's market is 0.00000000000001% of the HD viewing planet, so this feature might make sense for K to implement :)

I am happy to hear K is doing well. I'd have to see audited financial statements before I believe it, but I can imagine that there is a whole segment of the wealthy that knows nothing about SD or HD, but just wants the convenience and UI of the K system.

Jeff? Phil? Josh?, others...

Help a brother out.

Oh come on, Dizz, relax. Even those of us who love the box and who are genuine potential customers are allowed to have some skepticism or concern about the transition to HD. (And no I'm not blowing smoke; I'd have one now if my house project had taken off on schedule.)

I don't think any of us are positing "theories of imminent demise" as you put it. But the fact is that for someone who is serious about acquiring and watching content, it seems reasonable to want at least some assurance that the K will be there for them when they inevitably make the full transition to HD. Sure, maybe some rich customers driving 42" plasmas in their yachts with K players don't give a rip whether their videos are 480p or 1080p, but I'm serious home theater enthusiasts like ptrubey do.

But as I have said here, I'm optimistic that it's just a matter of time---the time it takes to get the MC stuff hammered out. Yes, it's slow, but this whole HD rollout has been slow.

My perspective is that this thread *in general* is typical AVS "the sky is falling" hilarity. I'm NOT saying that K support for HD is not a "real" issue, rather I am saying that for practical purposes HD DVD (whether BR or HD) barely exists yet. K has said AGAIN AND AGAIN that they intend to support HD. I think it's QUITE safe to assume that they have already worked on it and that when they feel there is adequate market success and content availablity for of one of the formats they will roll it out.

At first K only supported movies. They also made it clear they intended to support music. And they did. They will do the same for HD.

The HD issue is a valid point. It;s a legitimate question to ask given that many people will want support for it. Unlike the 10 Bit HD, which is so uber niche as to not be a big concern, want or need for the vast majority of the K user or potential user base, simple HD content support is a real issue. It's a much broader issue that has a very wide appeal. Therefore, I don't have a problem with people asking for it or even expecting support for it.

The question though is how will and should it be implemented? MMC is the most obvious and reasonable answer. K wants to stay legal and MMC will give them that opportunity with HD content. Of course, it's not like there's an illegal alternate ripping solution available now for HD anyway. So, if everyone wants server support for these media types, all they can do is wait. K has committed openly to that goal. MMC may also open up other feature sets that weren't previously available. One of the possibilities via MMC is that of content transfer to a portable device. That would be pretty cool and is somehting I'm sure K has avoided with DVD because of the legal wrangling with the DVDCCA over CSS key usage. So, the promise of what they can easily do with MMC is great and certainly is worth waiting for.

But what if MMC never comes? What happens if the studios find a way to weasel out of the MMC promise on both formats and completely screw over consumers? Or, as I've openly pondered before, what happens if they do implement MMC, but do so at such a high cost per title that it actively discourages users from using MMC? The simple answer there is for K to then offer playback only support. Sure, they could pursue that now but is that the best strategy? I don't think so. We're in year 0 of the new HD formats. There's no universal drive option and the library on both sides is still very small. To make a move early that is essentially just a temporary holdover doesn't make sense. If it were to become clear in the next 6 months that MMC may never see the light of day, then I think that pursuing playback only would be wise. But I think K can wait on MMC a little while longer before having to make a move. As I said before, there's nothing that precludes an owner from buying a separate player for those formats right now and besides, compared to the K player prices, the new format players are pretty cheap.

Jeff

At first K only supported movies. They also made it clear they intended to support music. And they did. They will do the same for HD.

MPAA != RIAA

dizz, my doubts about K are not because I want to see K fail, quite the opposite, I have been a fan of video transmission around the house, in fact, I demo'd MPEG2 over IP streaming over home networks while at Broadcom, well before it was a twinkle in K's eye. I might never buy K, but if K can strike a deal, then hopefully others will, and I will pull the trigger on a more cost effective system.

My doubts are about Hollywood and their ability to adapt and exploit new business models.

My comments are not directed at you Tzucc, i know that deep down you are very impressed with K from both a usability and definitely an engineering side. It is just your innate selective cheapness that stops you from buying one :D

I am talking in general with alot of the "sky is falling for K" comments.

THe whole issue with support for HD discs is that people like to demand answers... but there simply are no real answers right now other than we want to... we hope to. ANy answer from any manufacturer other than that is total BS.

THe downloadable content is the future. Period, end of sentence. And that has steps to go through and the only solutions that studios will take seriously are the ones that are rock solid secure.

but i do agree about hollywood and their inability to figure out the balance of what consumers want/demand and what they need.

My comments are not directed at you Tzucc, i know that deep down you are very impressed with K from both a usability and definitely an engineering side. It is just your innate selective cheapness that stops you from buying one :D

wow, you really do understand me!

yeah, and I agree about downloadable... it is the absolute end game... the only question is how long it takes to drag hollywood kicking and screaming over the cliff.

Although i should have highlighted the "selective" part... :D

http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/entry/3310/rip_blu-ray_movie

Copying bluray to a hard drive- sorry about no example earlier related to me mathematically certain the encryption will be cracked post

interesting. it appears that the bluray disc in question was simply unencrypted, making it trivial to copy it's data off. This is NOT an example of breaking Bluray encryption. The article says that all they did was mount the disc as a file system and then browse it, nice and simple. I did not see anything about encryption quoted.

The screenshot seems to make it an authentic post. Moreover, looking at the file extensions, it looks like Bluray is using MPEG2 transport streams... given the m2ts file extension... just a guess.

how would hollywood let unencrypted bluray movie discs get out?

Yawn. Almost any BD-ROM drive is going to be able to make bit-for-bit copies of the data on a Blu-Ray disk. Wake me up when the copy protection encapsulating that data is broken. And tzucc, I don't know if the entire filesystem is encrypted or just the media files. If it's the latter, then it is no surprise that they could browse the filesystem.

But even if this is a genuine hole---and I frankly quite doubt that it is---then I guarantee that Sony and Hollywood will have it nailed shut in a matter of weeks. Given how few titles have been released, the damage will be minimal at best. Indeed, it is precisely the renewability and adaptability of AACS and BD+ (EDIT: and in a distant second place, the power of expensive lawyers) that gives me confidence that a fully functional hack will not appear in public.

From http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=118874:Well.. keep in mind that from day one you could create an ISO from any DVD.. but since the darned thing is encrypted, it will do you little good.. and since you can't write the CSS ring making a 1:1 copy to play in any regular player never was an option.
So let's not break out in cheers yet. The MPAA may not have the real lesson to be learned from the CSS debacle (people wanting to play their legitimately purchased content anywhere they want and on any device they want without the MPAA getting to have a say in it), but at least in terms of crytography, they've made a huge step forward (and they have lawyers standing by to sue any researcher that manages to find a flaw into submission).Note that this quote comes from the founder of the Doom9 site, which is of course a go-to place for DVD hacks. So it sounds to me like those ripped BD-ROMs, plus a BD-ROM burner, will give you... a bunch of expensive coasters.

The screenshot seems to make it an authentic post. Moreover, looking at the file extensions, it looks like Bluray is using MPEG2 transport streams... given the m2ts file extension... just a guess.

That's currently the case. Since they have lots of space, they've been putting out MPEG2 transfers instead of pushing forward to a more modern codec. As previously discussed, this would have been a big benefit if they'd used it a year ago get way ahead. But now it's costing them due to image quality concerns (whether true or not it doesn't much matter.)

There's no hole. The discs are encrypted. So what? You can make an image copy of the disc, you can't do anything at all with it, like play it or make copies of it or use it for anything at all.

All you've achieved is a reduction in free harddrive space available to you. I mean, you might as well download a bunch of Cspan footage, at least you could watch it and learn how to do nothing...

But as I have said here, I'm optimistic that it's just a matter of time---the time it takes to get the MC stuff hammered out. Yes, it's slow, but this whole HD rollout has been slow.

I wish MS had more clout. But Quote from Alex...
"The final AACS license is being held up because of managed copy--it's still a very contentious issues with some studios (heck, given the way heads roll at studios, maybe all of them now). The current interim license--which applies to all shipping HD DVD and Blu-ray devices--says nothing about MC or MMC. There *might* be an update on this topic in January. I hate to say it, but I'm not getting a warm fuzzy that 1MC/MMC will surive as originally planned."

I hope at least they could nail the MC.

MS would obviously have more chance of success if there were not so many people out there who consider any limitation of their use of digital content to be a crime against humanity and who wil try everything they can to break the encryption. Many of those people are AVS members of course. Given the attitude out there among so many people, it's not hard to understand why the studios feel the way they do. They've put a lot of work into this new format and opening it up to the PC will be one more lever for those people whose avowed objective is to break any encryption used on any digital content.

A pre-emptive "yawn... uh, snort, what? could it be?" for this "crack":

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=119871
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oZGYb92isE

In short, it looks like they've implemented a decryptor for the publicly available AACS spec. Here's the rub: it will work... if you happen to have an AACS key. Which, as yet, is not in the wild... and if one is, it most likely would be revoked.

HOWEVER... looking at the Doom9 thread, and the YouTube video, it looks like the author has indeed been able to retrieve keys from one Windows HD-DVD player; I believe it is PowerDVD. He has declined to release it publicly, it seems. Nevertheless, I predict that the current PowerDVD key will be revoked soon. In fact, AACS has some sort of automatic expiration for software-based players that aren't updated over the Internet.

This probably proves Microsoft's decision correct not to implement their own HD-DVD or Blu-Ray decoders for XP.

Intel/AMD ought to take the initiative here and build in a key and basic decoding accelleration stuff into their CPUs, and just let the software players use that. It would be worth their while in terms of making their hardware a viable legal platform for media moving forward.

Why don't we just go back to vinyl?

Intel/AMD ought to take the initiative here and build in a key and basic decoding accelleration stuff into their CPUs, and just let the software players use that. It would be worth their while in terms of making their hardware a viable legal platform for media moving forward.


And obsolete current hardware? Not a good idea.

Maybe the best step is to realize that it's just going to be broken, no matter how hard they try to make it secure.

And what happens when someone gets a key out of a name brand player, like a Sony or Toshiba, and then uses that key to crack AACS. Will those keys be revoked, and will thousand's of players be made dead?

All this effort, all this money spent, on trying to stop something that you'll eventually be unable to stop. :rolleyes:

Maybe the best step is to realize that it's just going to be broken, no matter how hard they try to make it secure.I, for one, don't believe it will---at least not over the useful life of the format.And what happens when someone gets a key out of a name brand player, like a Sony or Toshiba, and then uses that key to crack AACS. Will those keys be revoked, and will thousand's of players be made dead?Now to be fair to you, this did happen once. Someone at a major university constructed a custom probe to sniff the Hypertransport bus on an X-box and extracted the private key. Seems Microsoft assumed nobody would be able to do that, and thus the key was transmitted "in the clear" over that bus. Indeed they assumed wrong. But it is interesting to note that other efforts to retrieve said keys were abandoned as impractical.

Still, granting that---people (and in this case, I mean DRM experts) learn their lessons. I don't believe this mistake is going to happen with AACS. But if it does, I think that yes, they will revoke the keys that belong to that particular player. And the manufacturer of said player will have to foot the bill to have those players recalled. Recalls happen all the time for other reasons, though, so it really won't be that unfamiliar of a process.

Besides, if I understand AACS correctly, I think the hardware keys are distributed much more liberally---not just one per manufacturer, but one per machine or one per batch. Don't count me as certain on that point. But if I am right, even if a key for the most popular hardware model is retrieve, I don't think you're talking about a recall that affects ALL of them.All this effort, all this money spent, on trying to stop something that you'll eventually be unable to stop.The only thing that is wasted, in my view, is the bandwidth spent on wishful thinking that movie studios will give up on copy protection and DRM. It's not going to happen. With movie budgets regularly exceeding $100 million---and with studios increasing depending on DVD sales & rentals instead of cinema ticket sales to recoup that investment---you had better believe that they are going to err on the side of being heavy-handed.

I do think it is more likely that a relaxation on heavy-handed DRM will happen with music. Indeed some big-label studio, EMI I think, is experimenting wiith that. But individual music productions cost orders of magnitude less than individual movie productions, so the business models are different.

EDIT: I know it's a bit hypocritical of me to suggest this, given that I just entered a long post, but I kind of realized after the fact that it might be best to have this debate over in this thread here. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=776145)

i will probably get leapt upon and made fun of for this... but oh well.

What is the fascination with stealing things? Why is it so evil for the studios to say that you cannot do whatever the hell you want with their content?

I agree. There is an entire sub-culture out there that is obsessed with stealing digital content. It's probably the bulk of internet traffic, after spam anyway. There are many times more tracks stolen every year than sold, but somehow the people who make the stuff are the evil ones and people act like it's some kind of outrage that they'd try to protect their stuff when clearly people are stealing it at a rate far larger than is actually purchased.

And poeple scream about the outrageous profits of the studios, when the GROSS revenues of all the major music studios combined is about equal to the PROFIT of General Electric, a single company. But of course in order to steal from GE, they'd actually have to pick something up and run off with it. But most people have no respect for IP rights at all, and don't even think about it at all. And of course they always complain that companies are pushing to extend copyright, but the bulk of what is being stolen isn't stuff that would be in the public domain under even a 20 year copyright.

Anyway, don't get me started.

i will probably get leapt upon and made fun of for this... but oh well.

What is the fascination with stealing things? Why is it so evil for the studios to say that you cannot do whatever the hell you want with their content?

No one in this thread is suggesting the theft of anything, and I have no problems with studio's wishing to protect their content. But there's only one sure fire way to ensure content isn't stolen.... don't release it. ;)

IMHO, they're somewhat making the situation more complicated than it needs to be and delaying something like MMC so that a system like Kaleidescape can't take advantage of the new formats. I'm not saying don't try and have some form of copy protection on the new formats, but at least get off the pot when it comes to MMC so those of us that do wish to use a media server system can.

That is exactly what I am saying- I do not intend to steal anything- I just want a convenient way to watch the movies. Personally, I do not own a K, but over the holidays, I have been playing with my in-laws kaleidescape- it is absolutely awesome. Hd-dvd or blu-ray should be eyeing K as a marketing tool and helping K implement one of their formats, exclusively. Even to people who can't afford a K, imagine if they heard things like this- "Yeah- the K is the best, it's $30,000... what do I think of the new formats? Well, I am not sure yet- but that cool K system- it only supports blu-ray," coming from the mouths of high-end av salespeople?
Instead the format groups are headed by dumbass people convinced the world will stop turning if an extremely wealthy person can more conveniently access their movie collection. :mad:
It blows my mind. I finally convince my father in law to get one for his theater, and he loves it so much he watches more movies- buys about a hundred dvds on a whim BECAUSE K MAKES THEM EASIER TO WATCH. He does not steal movies. People that cannot afford them and have enough time to download them do. They are not customers to begin with.

there is a mention in PC Mag online, I think, that someone has cracked HD-DVD DRM and was able to back up the bits from the plastic to the hard drive, and play the movie from there using Cyberlink's HD DVD software player. Wow. There is a video on YouTube showing it being done.

However, there is some dispute just how much the guy/gal has actually cracked of HD DVD, and unlike in DVD case, there seems to be some wrinkle to do with keys specific to each and every title.

You're a bit late to the game tzucc---check a few posts back for details... also there's a LOT of discussion in the HD software media forum. In short, though, it's not a particularly fatal crack---someone managed to extract PowerDVD's AACS keys, in a similar fashion that DVD Jon broke CSS. The only thing is, AACS accounts for this kind of attack in its design, and its revocation ability will handle it just fine. The only folks in trouble are the people who wrote the PowerDVD folks. Current titles are vulnerable to extraction in the meantime but those are few in number...

thanks for the update MG.

Judge rules against DVD consortium


SAN JOSE, Calif. — A Superior Court judge ruled Thursday (March 29) a startup's media server does not violate the security technology used to protect DVD disks because the standard licensing contract and specifications for the technology are so poorly worded.
The decision marks a rare, though small victory for a Silicon Valley startup facing the interests of a group of large movie studios and consumer and computer companies. The ruling also could open the door for other systems makers who want to design personal video libraries that store DVD movies on hard drives.

Judge Leslie C. Nichols ruled against the DVD Copy Control Association (DVD CCA) in a civil suit that asked the court to force startup Kaleidescape to change its design or stop selling its server that stores hundreds of DVD movies on a hard drive array. Nichols said the basis for his decision was his ruling that an entire section of the DVD CCA's spec for the Content Scramble System (CSS) was not technically included as part of the license agreement.

"This [CSS spec] is a product of a committee of lawyers," said Nichols in his ruling.

...


http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=198701186&printable=true

Collide. Escape. (repeat as needed)

I didn't have the time to read the entire thread but have a question:

I have the opportunity to buy a K system at a very good price but I would have to make a decision in the next couple of weeks. Should I bite or should I wait?

Bite

Definitely bite

If you watch dvd's bite. But no one is holding me down to watch DVD's , I have now gone10 months without buying or renting a dvd. Quite frankly the quality of DVD is horrible compared to HD. I would spend the money in a high capacity Vista Media center outfitted with dual cable cards and an hd dvd player and Blue ray player. If you need to share this hd content multiroom then xbox 360 elite it.

http://cineramax.com/images/AMX-Network.jpg

To each it's own, but it's HD or bust for me.

OK then... now lets talk about something that can be bought this year!

Very simple.
Vista media center PC
A few TB of iSCSI storage. About $6k should net you a kaleidescape equivalent unit
PowerDVD 7
Slysoft Anydvd-HD. One button rip of any HD-DVD or blu-ray disk (or so I've heard..:-)
Presto..instant HD-DVD/Blu-ray disk storage system.

Granted, streaming to an Xbox 360 extender is not an option for HD-DVD..as it can't handle the bitrate. That would require either a downconvert to WMV-HD, or transcode (ugh). But then again, Kaleidescape costs a fortune, and can't even archive HD-DVD.
Not to mention a simple Vista HTPC+iSCSI array will do everything a Kaleidescape does. Perhaps not as idiot proof, but at a fraction of the price.

Granted, streaming to an Xbox 360 extender is not an option for HD-DVD..as it can't handle the bitrate.

It is my understanding that the xbox 360 elite will display ful 1080p. It is also my understanding that service pac 2 will permit streaming of hd-dvd and blu-ray over the network. what gives?

OK then... now lets talk about something that can be bought this year!

The above rig can be bought this year.

Should I bite or should I wait?
Read their license agreement very carefully. Notice the parts where they are protected and you are not. Namely they can turn your players off completely, anytime, for any reason, and you have no (ZERO) recourse.

If they had lost this suit, they would have done just that with their next automatic software update.

I would buy something that has a more consumer friendly licensing agreement.

Very simple.
Vista media center PC
A few TB of iSCSI storage. About $6k should net you a kaleidescape equivalent unit
PowerDVD 7
Slysoft Anydvd-HD. One button rip of any HD-DVD or blu-ray disk (or so I've heard..:-)
Presto..instant HD-DVD/Blu-ray disk storage system.

Granted, streaming to an Xbox 360 extender is not an option for HD-DVD..as it can't handle the bitrate. That would require either a downconvert to WMV-HD, or transcode (ugh). But then again, Kaleidescape costs a fortune, and can't even archive HD-DVD.
Not to mention a simple Vista HTPC+iSCSI array will do everything a Kaleidescape does. Perhaps not as idiot proof, but at a fraction of the price.
Yes, it can do everything a Kaleidescape system can do...in the sense that my legs can do everything a car can do. They can both get me from point A to point B. Beyond that, they are not remotely similar.

Yes, it can do everything a Kaleidescape system can do...in the sense that my legs can do everything a car can do. They can both get me from point A to point B. Beyond that, they are not remotely similar.


I disagree I say HD is the car and dvd is the legs.

Read their license agreement very carefully. Notice the parts where they are protected and you are not. Namely they can turn your players off completely, anytime, for any reason, and you have no (ZERO) recourse.

If they had lost this suit, they would have done just that with their next automatic software update.

I would buy something that has a more consumer friendly licensing agreement.

But they didn't lose, did they? And really, the issue was never all that much in doubt. The DVDCCA's appeal is an expected attempt by them to further the case, but it will fail as well. The wording isn't in CSS usage agreement contract and that's all that matters. I, like other K users, asked questions about this issue before buying. I also did my own research before making the investment so I feel confident that K will win out even on the DVDCCA's appeal.

Jeff

Very simple.
Vista media center PC
A few TB of iSCSI storage. About $6k should net you a kaleidescape equivalent unit
PowerDVD 7
Slysoft Anydvd-HD. One button rip of any HD-DVD or blu-ray disk (or so I've heard..:-)
Presto..instant HD-DVD/Blu-ray disk storage system.

Granted, streaming to an Xbox 360 extender is not an option for HD-DVD..as it can't handle the bitrate. That would require either a downconvert to WMV-HD, or transcode (ugh). But then again, Kaleidescape costs a fortune, and can't even archive HD-DVD.
Not to mention a simple Vista HTPC+iSCSI array will do everything a Kaleidescape does. Perhaps not as idiot proof, but at a fraction of the price.

Slysoft Anydvd-HD- Illegal!

In this forum why dont we talk about things that are legal that a person can buy without the thought of breaking the law (whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant) MMC is not yet finalized (to the best of my knowledge) so talking about ANY BD HDDVD server is merely conjecture.

We can postulate on what we would like to see and how much we would like it to cost and why, but the truth is that you cannot legally do it yet.

Read their license agreement very carefully. Notice the parts where they are protected and you are not. Namely they can turn your players off completely, anytime, for any reason, and you have no (ZERO) recourse.

Read any friggin contract that entails multiple licences and that is the case. read all the way through your EULA for windows and you will find far more draconian things than "if we have to close our doors, we may have to shut your player off" If they had lost the suit, they MIGHT have had to make some change to the architecture to ensure you still possess the disc.

But as with all the people who bought the systems and came on as dealers for K, they did a TINY bit of research (not a bad idea for a 30K+ item) and found that everything pointed to K being correct. And realizing in most cases that K had a better engineering and manufacturing organization and pedigree than ANY consumer company on the market, this was an item that was not going to fade away.

I find these wild postulations the funniest stuff here. And again, i did work there, i left there and could possibly have an axe to grind, but have to admit that they know what they are doing.

Yes..speeding is illegal. Certain activities between consenting adults are illegal...whatever. If one purchased, and owned the HD-DVD and/or Blu-ray disk, it becomes a Fair Use vs DMCA issue and very much a legal grey area. We didn't exactly see the MPAA raiding any Kaleidescape users, eh?
I won't even get into the fact that Kaleidescape has to violate the DMCA, as almost every new DVD release in the past few years has ADDITIONAL copy protection features besides the pathetic CSS.

The simple fact of the matter is, if it can be played back on a computer, it can be copied easily. For that matter, if it can be played back PERIOD, it can be copied, although with much more difficulty. And lets not get started on the "morality" issue. If I purchased it, its MINE. I do not recall signing a license agreement when I purchased my CD's...DVDs..or even HD-DVDs for that matter.


So...for the whole "run' vs "walk" argument, I'll bite. I've read the specs on Kalaidescape very carefully, and can see NOTHING that even comes close to justifying the outrageous price. What am I missing? What, exactly that can a K-scape system do, that a good Vista HTPC backed by a storage array can't?

- Archive DVDs? - Check
- Play those archived DVDs in any room of the house? - Check
- Provide liner notes, movie information, etc? - Check
- Allow one to pick a movie based on a variety of catagories? - Check
- Use touch screen remotes? - Check.

So..what are we missing here? What justifies the extra $20k?
Gold HDMI cables with platinum connectors?
20k rpm drives?
Then again, I forget we're in the ultra high end forum, where people pay $200 for an HDMI cable, or hundreds for fiber optics....

And yes, I could certainly a K-scape system if I felt the cost was justified....I just prefer to use my existing fiber storage arrary and servers.

proteus7,

The issue has been discussed ad nauseum. I suggest doing a search. Since you are basing your argument on having "read the specs carefully" and have no experience with the product, it seems any discussion is likely of limited value.

No one is claiming the picture is sharper or that some super low jitter number makes it sound better or that it's wired with silver wire or any of the other stuff that you'll find prevalent in audio circles. That's not what this device is about. This device is about the user experience (and much more). Is that user experience worth the price difference? That's a question that only each person can answer.

The moment I see the argument to "justify the outrageous cost" I know I am usually in a battle that can't be won. I can't justify the cost any more than I can justify why one person purchases a $499 computer and another wants to buy the most tricked out Alienware machine for 8K. What I can tell you is that the two machines aren't the same. Is the Alienware "worth" 7.5K more? It's a totally meaningless argument to get into because "worth" is in the eye of the beholder.

proteus7,

No one is claiming the picture is sharper or that some super low jitter number makes it sound better or that it's wired with silver wire or any of the other stuff that you'll find prevalent in audio circles. That's not what this device is about. This device is about the user experience (and much more). Is that user experience worth the price difference? That's a question that only each person can answer.

I would add also that its not just the user experience, its also the time and effort required to put something equivalent to K by yourself.

My time and effort is worth money - I would argue that the total number of hours and frustration needed to get Vista Media Center and all the relevant hardware and software pieces up and running smoothly without glitches, to be equivalent to a K system, cost well more than 20K to me personally, and I'm sure many others!

There will always be a DIY crowd that can do better... but try commercializing your DIY solution and see how much its going to cost you! :rolleyes:

Andrew's making an excellent point.

Once I pulled a toilet up from the floor in order to fix a clog in the sewer line. The whole job took me all day, when it could have taken a professional 90 minutes, tops. From that point onward, anything that a bottle of Drano or a plunger didn't fix prompted a call to the plumber, and I never whined about the price.

For similar reasons, I no longer consider advanced control systems like AMX and Crestron to be as overpriced as they used to seem... as computer savvy as I am, I have found it virtually impossible to get a smoothly operating, wife-friendly remote control system going. Maybe others can, but I can't seem to, at least not in the limited time I am willing to spend trying.

I imagine that I might have a bit more success getting a good Vista-based media center working, since it's closer to my core skills. But even so, I'll bet that if I add up the dollar value of the hours required, it would soon approach the cost of a Kaleidscape.... and it would never be as slick and easy to use as the K. Add to that Kaleidescape's remote hardware monitoring, and for many people it's not even a contest.

proteus7: If the cost of a K is outrageous to you, then more power to you. Have at it. But something tells me you know in the back of your mind that you really can't get your system to run as well as the K, that it's a compromise in the name of saving money. Thus your supposed "outrage" is amplified by the frustration that your DIY unit really isn't just as good, and never will be.

Andrew's making an excellent point.
He does, but I doubt the person we are disagreeing with will think so. From his post in this thread and others he clearly belongs to the group that finds it "outrageous" that someone would pay such and such for that. He just stated in another thread that AMX must be making 500% to 1000% markup on all their equipment.

His little point by point list of what he can do with Vista versus the K showed his level of understanding of the K product (which he has never seen nor used) but that doesn't stop him from critiquing it and calling it outrageous.

They may very well be marking it up that much, I have no idea. But I really don't care. To sell to me, all you have to prove is that the return on my investment is there. When the alternative is DIY, they can mark it up 10000% if it's still a win for me.

Sorry to screw up your pretty little life, proteus7, by being one of those customers who will pay "outrageous" prices...

I don't know why the Vista Multiroom -Xbox 360 Elite cable card solution seems so unstable to you guys. It certainly has not been when I have played with it. Pretty straight forward actually. It may not have the kinetics of the K shuffling artwork, but it is so cool to just press a thumbnail on the remote and see the movie start in HD.

I won't even get into the fact that Kaleidescape has to violate the DMCA, as almost every new DVD release in the past few years has ADDITIONAL copy protection features besides the pathetic CSS.

Wow, where's the gameshow incorrect buzzer when you need it? Do you know what the DMCA actually makes illegal? Contrary to popular belief, the DMCA does not make copying or even circumventing copy protection measures illegal. It only makes circumventing access prevention measures illegal. It's a legal knitpick, but it was Congress' and the lobbyists' way of not having the general public throw a huge fit over the DMCA.

The idea is that content owners have the right to decide who has access to the content. In doing so, they effectively also decide how the content is used (in a legal sense only, not what is technically possible - obviously they lost that technical ability with DeCSS). CSS is an access prevention technology, not actually a copy prevention technology. Of course, you have to have access to make the copy, so most people think of CSS as the latter.

How does this fit in with K? With a legally licensed CSS key, the DMCA DOES NOT APPLY. That gives them legal access to the data on disc and everything after that is fair game. Regardless of what additional copy protection measures are employed, it's not illegal to circumvent them. Again, that's because the DMCA does not make copying or circumventing copy protection measures illegal. There is actually wording to that effect in it. Here's an excerpt:

"Since copying of a work may be a fair use under appropriate circumstances, section 1201 does not prohibit the act of circumventing a technological measure that prevents copying. By contrast, since the fair use doctrine is not a defense to the act of gaining unauthorized access to a work, the act of circumventing a technological measure in order to gain access is prohibited."

Taken from: http://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf

Notice the distinction between copying and access. The second sentence came largely into play for the 321 Studios ruling whereby the judge ruled that users' fair use rights did not justify circumventing the CSS access controls. Here, since K wasn't violating the DMCA because they are using a legal CSS key, a contract dispute is all the DVDCCA had at their disposal and they lost that argument.

This is the same reason why all the garbage attempts made by recording studios to add copy protection to CDs can be circumvented without legal recourse. The CD format was created without an access control technology and adding it now would make millions of players incompatible, so they won't do it. Instead, they come up with these lame copy protection measures in an attempt to prevent piracy since that's all they have. Users are free to circumvent these without fear of recourse from the DMCA since circumventing copy protection for fair use is legal.

Yes..speeding is illegal. Certain activities between consenting adults are illegal...whatever. If one purchased, and owned the HD-DVD and/or Blu-ray disk, it becomes a Fair Use vs DMCA issue and very much a legal grey area. We didn't exactly see the MPAA raiding any Kaleidescape users, eh?

I'd say it isn't a grey area. Court rulings have upheld the DMCA over fair use rights on more than one occasion. Not going after end users is a PR move. The RIAA has cornered the market on negative publicity by going after end users and the movie studios don't want to be lumped in with them. You could argue that the movie studios would be in even deeper PR hell by going after end users than the RIAA.

I say that because the RIAA usually goes after file traders. File trading is more clear cut theft. A DMCA violation, especially for personal use, is not the same thing. By going after end users for making copies for personal use only (let's assume backups), you attract a lot of unwanted attention by the general public to the fact that the DMCA exists and what it is. Get enough of that, and the masses will bang on Congress hard enough to change the DMCA and restore fair use rights over access control. The studios DO NOT WANT that as it is a legal tool for them to use to try and keep ripping to a minimum. Without this protection, companies like Apple would add consumer friendly ripping tools to iTunes and then the genie is completely out of the bottle. So instead, they stay more low key and only go after the folks making the access circumvention tools, not the end users.


The simple fact of the matter is, if it can be played back on a computer, it can be copied easily. For that matter, if it can be played back PERIOD, it can be copied, although with much more difficulty. And lets not get started on the "morality" issue. If I purchased it, its MINE. I do not recall signing a license agreement when I purchased my CD's...DVDs..or even HD-DVDs for that matter.

The agreement was part of the purchase. There are laws inherent to the product itself, even if you didn't officially sign anything. So, while I agree that we should be able to do this or that, laws constrain and limit those usage rights. What users actually choose to do is their decision, but the law here in the US is what it is.

Jeff

There are laws inherent to the product itself, even if you didn't officially sign anything. So, while I agree that we should be able to do this or that, laws constrain and limit those usage rights.
Absolutely! When you buy a book, it is copyrighted. You can read it. Your family can read it, you can give it to you neighbor to read; but, you cannot copy it for the purpose of distributing it to others (in some cases, you cannot copy period). You didn't sign a document when you purchased the book, but the copyright and its terms apply.

Andrew's making an excellent point.

Once I pulled a toilet up from the floor in order to fix a clog in the sewer line. The whole job took me all day, when it could have taken a professional 90 minutes, tops. From that point onward, anything that a bottle of Drano or a plunger didn't fix prompted a call to the plumber, and I never whined about the price.

For similar reasons, I no longer consider advanced control systems like AMX and Crestron to be as overpriced as they used to seem... as computer savvy as I am, I have found it virtually impossible to get a smoothly operating, wife-friendly remote control system going. Maybe others can, but I can't seem to, at least not in the limited time I am willing to spend trying.

I imagine that I might have a bit more success getting a good Vista-based media center working, since it's closer to my core skills. But even so, I'll bet that if I add up the dollar value of the hours required, it would soon approach the cost of a Kaleidscape.... and it would never be as slick and easy to use as the K. And to that Kaleidescape's remote hardware monitoring, and for many people it's not even a contest.

proteus7: If the cost of a K is outrageous to you, then more power to you. Have at it. But something tells me you know in the back of your mind that you really can't get your system to run as well as the K, that it's a compromise in the name of saving money. Thus your supposed "outrage" is amplified by the frustration that your DIY unit really isn't just as good, and never will be.

Excellent Post

Cineramax---I admit I haven't demoed the Vista/Xbox combo, as I have the K. (EDIT: This is poorly worded. I don't own a K, but I have demoed it, which is what I meant to say. I'm strongly considering it for my new house.) But if someone can get it working as smoothly as the K for me, with no apologies, for cheaper than the K, then that's great! Though I doubt that an installer can do the DVD ripping for me like a Kaleidescape installer can---at least not legally. And if I'm right, that's gonna cost me some time (==money).

Jeff and Michael, excellent posts.

In addition, what similar product has people working overtime to constantly improve the system and keep it up to date? As a DIY, I'd be that person, and that is not happening with my schedule.

Jim

(Disclosure: I'm a happy K dealer :) )

I can comfortably say that K (and AMX and Crestron ) are not making these obscene margins everyone assumes they are.

When i was doing the training at K, the most valuable part of the class was when we gave a tour and the dealers saw the manufacturing, the burn in, the lab with the massive test system, the Media guide folks adding to the database of all the titles so that we could catalog all the disks and skip over warnings and previews and jump to the movie, or the trailer or episode 6 of season 2... whatever.

The simple fact is that so much more went into the experience part of it that is never counted except by those that have seen it and get it.

As far as the Xbox system, if you cannot LEGALLY rip the content, but you want to yourself... then go right ahead. it is not likely that the DVDCCA SWAT team will be kicking in your doors any time soon. but if i want to go BUY a system from somebody and you sell me something with illegal software init, then you are a party to the act and as such in a much uglier situation. and besides, any integrator that is selling an illegal solution to a customer is doing a serious disservice and is showing some pretty poor integrity.

You may not realize it, but when you buy a DVD, as soon as you open it, you are agreeing in a legal contract to all the copyrights and laws that are attached to it. every time you open every disc. this was part of the reason why when K sells a colection (at least a year ago) they could not preload the DVD's on a set of discs. they had to send the discs to the client/dealer and they had to load them.

Also as far as Proteus7's excelent understanding of the facts involved. K was never in a suit with the MPAA. they were in a suit with the DVDCCA. from what i understood, the MPAA was initially asked to be a 3rd party to the suit but declined. It was a simple contract dispute (albeit with large potential ramifications... i think AMX owes K a case or two of champagne)


As has been said many times, just because you can do the same things on a checklist does not mean you have the same thing. I have a car, it has an engine, it accelerates and decelerates... does that mean it is the same as a ferrari?

When you make those type of simplistic arguments you just make yourself sound like a moron. I remember getting into an argument with a guy at an AV dealer who siad that he could mke his Xbox be just as good as a K. i kept saying no, he kept saying yes. we went and did a demo of the K and i showed him what it really did. He kept shaking his head saying "i had no idea" and then aid, ok, i can rip disks and playback, but i cannot do what a K does.

"Since copying of a work may be a fair use under appropriate circumstances, section 1201 does not prohibit the act of circumventing a technological measure that prevents copying. By contrast, since the fair use doctrine is not a defense to the act of gaining unauthorized access to a work, the act of circumventing a technological measure in order to gain access is prohibited."

So breaking HDCP is not illegal, according to this? After all, I already have access (I can view it on my screen), it's only a question of whether I can record what I see or not.

Dizzman---I'm not a lawyer but I believe that personal ripping can be defended under the "interoperability clause" of the DMCA. Same goes for HDCP strippers by the way. It's allowing someone else to do it, or selling software or hardware to do it, where you run afoul of the law. Again, IANAL, but that's my understanding. (Kind of like a "legal to posess, illegal to distribute" kind of thing.)

IF I am right, then the advantage that the K provides is by being "legit" is not the legality of ripping itself. Rather, it's that they can legally sell you the product that does so. As evidence, consider that Microsoft doesn't go out of their way to enable you to rip DVDs.

correct. if you want to build somthing yourself, then you get into grey, and really nobody is going to come after you as the net loss is not really there.

Selling the software or turnkey setup is the big one
K and a few others do this. that is the big issue. trying to buy a setup. DIY you can do lots, but as you have pointed out in other threads... now many people can do that and have something that the whole family can use. If there was one, i would buy it myself. Hitting repeat for these wiggles videos is a pain.

I don't know why the Vista Multiroom -Xbox 360 Elite cable card solution seems so unstable to you guys. It certainly has not been when I have played with it. Pretty straight forward actually. It may not have the kinetics of the K shuffling artwork, but it is so cool to just press a thumbnail on the remote and see the movie start in HD.


I've spent some time with Media Center, perhaps not as much as you have maybe, but I could tell straight away it was no simple task to maintain properly once you did get things working properly. Not to mention the constant Microsoft bugs, memory leaks, and updates that are needed which more often than not breaks something else that you previously got working.

In fact, its no surprise that the biggest seller of Microsoft's Media Center systems has just announced its no longer selling any MCE based systems! Although they claim its not about the viability of MCE per se, but you can pretty much put two and two together. They're going with their own pre-packaged-non-Microsoft system. Read for yourself...

HP Exits Media Center Business (http://www.cepro.com/news/editorial/18066.html)

Andrew,

I just tested the latest version of Vista Media Center the other day. I continue to be stupefied by how a company worth so many countless billions of dollars, with no doubt countless brilliant software engineers on staff, can continually design such bad software. MS no doubt represents a case study on how a company can enjoy smashing success in the marketplace in spite of rarely if ever designing the best products.

On the same day I tested the new Apple iTV. While I didn't find it to be spectacular, within 60 seconds I was easily navigating it with complete mastery.

p.s. Lest anyone think my comments are biased because I am a Mac fan, I am anything but. I have never owned a Mac as a PC is required in for all the software I need to run (yes, before someone mentions it, I know about bootcamp and parallels)..

Dizzman---I'm not a lawyer but I believe that personal ripping can be defended under the "interoperability clause" of the DMCA. Same goes for HDCP strippers by the way. It's allowing someone else to do it, or selling software or hardware to do it, where you run afoul of the law. Again, IANAL, but that's my understanding. (Kind of like a "legal to posess, illegal to distribute" kind of thing.)

IF I am right, then the advantage that the K provides is by being "legit" is not the legality of ripping itself. Rather, it's that they can legally sell you the product that does so. As evidence, consider that Microsoft doesn't go out of their way to enable you to rip DVDs.

Yeah, the interoperability exception gets into some pretty detailed legalese. Too detailed for my understanding. Regardless, as we have all stated here, neither the studios nor the DVDCCA are going after end users.

But yes, the ability for K to sell their solution legally is in fact their trump card. If this not were the case, we certainly would have seen quite a few more entrants into the marketplace by all kinds of companies. MS would have incorporated a ripping tool into MC a long time ago and Apple would have it in iTunes. In many ways, I wish this was the case. I love the K, but I also love flexibility and choice. I like seeing what various companies can come up with and seeing how that competition leads to better choices. I'd love to see how much cooler the options for portable video would be if not for the DMCA.

The currently available tools do a pretty good job, but I'd prefer to see tighter integration with specific hardware in mind especially for portable use. Easy syncs, one-click rips without ever having to look at a preference screen for tweaks, chapter markers included and recognized by the portable device, automatically downloaded metadata, support for DVD menu ripping with special features, alternate audio, etc. Basically, I'd love to see a solution as easy and slick as K for a portable device. Damn you DMCA! ;)

Jeff

Basically, I'd love to see a solution as easy and slick as K for a portable device.
I'd love to see any portable device, even if it's not as easy and slick as K.

Just a portable DVD player with a built-in hard drive. It can copy DVDs to the hard drive, and then play them from the hard drive later. All this for less than $200. ;)

So do any of you legal people out there think K has a case to enter the HD content frontier? That would be the deciding factor for me. I can wait to get a K solution but I don't want the system if I am constrained to 480p

I'd love to see any portable device, even if it's not as easy and slick as K.

Just a portable DVD player with a built-in hard drive. It can copy DVDs to the hard drive, and then play them from the hard drive later. All this for less than $200. ;)

That price point could be tough to meet given the device size needed to accommodate a DVD drive and the likely screen size that would go with as well as the additional hardware and software, but I would love such a device even at $500 or more.

MMM, sprinkles... ;)

Jeff

So do any of you legal people out there think K has a case to enter the HD content frontier? That would be the deciding factor for me. I can wait to get a K solution but I don't want the system if I am constrained to 480p

NONE OF US ARE LEGAL PEOPLE. One has to be clear.

As far as the HD arena, they have stated from the beginning that if it is possible, they plan to offer it. they have a system that is buttoned up as tight as it can be, they obey all appropriate licences... and are a member of both consortiums (BD and HDDVD)

THe unknown for everybody is when MMC is released and how it works (final version)

I would personally say that they have as good a chance as anybody. Plus they want to do other stuff as well. Like offer content that is downloadable.

THe problem right now is that nobody knows what will be possible and how it will be possible. THat is the really annoying aspect.

Read any friggin contract that entails multiple licences and that is the case. read all the way through your EULA for windows and you will find far more draconian things than "if we have to close our doors, we may have to shut your player off" If they had lost the suit, they MIGHT have had to make some change to the architecture to ensure you still possess the disc.

In the K EULA, addition and removal of function is not limited. It is open ended. K can do this for any reason, at any time.

Do you remember the movie reviews? K used to have them. They were removed.

My point was not how bad OTHER EULAs are, it is how bad THIS one is.

But as with all the people who bought the systems and came on as dealers for K, they did a TINY bit of research (not a bad idea for a 30K+ item) and found that everything pointed to K being correct. And realizing in most cases that K had a better engineering and manufacturing organization and pedigree than ANY consumer company on the market, this was an item that was not going to fade away.

Research is always a good thing. Reading and comprehending is also a good thing. A $30K+ doorstop would be a bad thing. Re-read the K EULA and ask yourself if you're happy with your "rights" or not.

I find these wild postulations the funniest stuff here. And again, i did work there, i left there and could possibly have an axe to grind, but have to admit that they know what they are doing.

OK, instead of "wild postulations" :rolleyes: I'll ask questions.

Why does this EULA (really a service agreement) allow the service provider to not provide the service and expect to keep my money?
Why must I sign away my right to recover my investment (in this proprietary hardware) if the unthinkable happens and K goes out of business or loses the next lawsuit?
Why must I sign away my right to recover my investment if the only function I use is arbitrarily removed?

If it is not bad, why did YOU compare K's EULA to Microsoft's?

The poster asked for opinions. Mine is to buy an item that has a consumer friendly EULA or none at all.

I just don't see the EULA as all that bad. The only even questionable part is section 10 (http://www.kaleidescape.com/licensing/service-and-license-agreement.pdf) which gives them the right to terminate service for any reason with 30 days notice. However, you'd have to look at past practice to see if that clause is an issue and I've never heard of them doing that to anyone.

If they lost a suit or went belly-up, what's the difference between those outcomes and the above? They wouldn't be able to continue to provide the service anyway, so it is in effect a termnation. Maybe they compensate you and maybe they don't, but you'd likely be behind other creditors in bankruptcy court so you'd be lucky to see a dime.

This is a product that includes a service as part of its operation. They're not hiding that from anyone and the risk of ANY company going under and thus making an investment less valuable exists. By the way, K yacht installations operate just fine without a constant net connection even though K recommends that they connect as often as possible for system updates, etc. So if they go belly-up, do you think the system will just stop working?

As for the movie reviews, that's the only feature I can remember them removing in over 2 years of personal use. At the time, a few folks griped about it, but the majority of users didn't seem to mind. Features aren't always retained in a product and companies do this from time to time. At the end of the day, the larger question is how do they regularly operate? I'd say phenomenally well. Their CS is excellent and extremely helpful, the system operates well with very few problems, they add new features regularly at no charge (including major ones like music), and take care of customers. In my mind, they are one of the best run tech companies with a great product to boot.

The EULA is free to read for anyone before they buy. Don't like what it says? Don't buy. We're all free to draw our on conclusions. But let's not paint an incorrect picture because of what the legalese says because their actions have proven that they are a quality outfit.

Jeff

Not bad, eh? I notice you didn't answer my questions.

As you said, a questionable (I'd say bad) part is in section 10:
Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in this Agreement, Kaleidescape retains the absolute right to immediately suspend or terminate your account, and terminate this Agreement, without notice, if you breach any provision in this Agreement, if you misuse the Kaleidescape System, or use the Kaleidescape System in such a manner as to infringe upon the intellectual property rights of Kaleidescape or any third party. In addition, Kaleidescape reserves the right to terminate your account and this Agreement for any other reason upon 30 days advance notice.

Upon the termination of this Agreement, all rights granted under this Agreement shall forthwith terminate, and you will remain obligated to pay all outstanding fees and charges relating to your use of the Kaleidescape System before termination. Unused subscription fees are nonrefundable.

I added the emphasis.

If I am terminated for any reason, they keep the money. If I still own them money, I must pay for a service that I'm not getting. Why?

Both you and Dizzman keep talking about K going belly-up or closing their doors. That is NOT what the EULA says. I asked for the agreement to enumerate the reasons K would terminate me and was told they must have the right to terminate for NO REASON.

If they are such a "quality outfit", why do they demand this? When I asked, they wouldn't answer.

In section 3:
Kaleidescape reserves the right to discontinue one, some or all of the features of the Kaleidescape Service you receive at any time, at Kaleidescape’s sole discretion.
Notice if they remove "one, some or all of the features", they need not give advanced warning. Why do they reserve the right to remove all features WITHOUT terminating the agreement? Combined with 10 (above), if you are on the hook for service, you still have to pay without receiving any features?

In section 4:
By using the Kaleidescape Service, you agree to receive any software updates and upgrades that Kaleidescape, in its sole discretion, sends to your model of the Kaleidescape System.
Looks like the Yacht operators are in breach if they are not receiving their updates. If I remain in contact with K, can I receive an "update" that renders my system unusable? (the last answer I got to this question was yes)



The EULA is free to read for anyone before they buy. Don't like what it says? Don't buy.
I completely agree. Vote with your checkbook.

We're all free to draw our on conclusions. But let's not paint an incorrect picture because of what the legalese says because their actions have proven that they are a quality outfit.
K is a very young company (founded in 2001, first ship in 2003). In the grand scheme, K has no track record (~2500 customers). The only thing potential customers have to go by is what they publish and how they treat each individual. This EULA and K's unwillingess to change the sections outlined above, when asked, doesn't prove they are a "quality outfit" to me. Instead, it showed me a company more afraid of losing a constant revenue stream than doing the right thing.

I am looking at this agreement as a consumer who really likes the function of this product and was ready to install a system in his house and another in his vacation home. I'm happy that you enjoy (or is it enjoyed?) working there and are still psyched about the product. K may be "all that and a bag of chips". Only time will tell.

However, the poster asked for opinions. My current opinion is to buy an item that has a consumer friendly EULA or none at all. K is not that product, at this time.

With all the pontificating, I still have yet to see an answer to the original question:

What, exactly that can a K-scape system do, that a good Vista HTPC backed by a storage array can't?

- Archive DVDs? - Check
- Play those archived DVDs in any room of the house? - Check
- Provide liner notes, movie information, etc? - Check
- Allow one to pick a movie based on a variety of catagories? - Check
- Use touch screen remotes? - Check.

The Alienware reference is inaccurate. An $8000 alienware is significantly faster, more reliable, and has better components than a $500 pc.

Perhaps I'll just go find a demo somewhere. Maybe it truly is a Lexus vs Rolls Royce thing..a PC vs Mac thing. I guess some people may just want something that is completely simple and trouble free. As for me, Vista is dead simple, and my wife and 7 year old have no trouble navigating Vista MCE to watch the movies, DVDs and music they want. But I realize that there are people out there who can't figure out how to set their VCR time, so..

Again, what's in the contract is there for all to see before buying. But again, what they do in practice is what matters. You want to know why they have what they have? I didn't answer your specific questions because I don't have the answers. You're probably going to have to get down and dirty with their legal team for those answers and my bet is that it's a CYA inclusion in case of a lawsuit against them. I don't doubt that the K management knew that the studios and/or the DVDCCA might sue them even if, in doing their homework, they knew they were in the right. It's likely a legal measure to protect themselves.

All of these things only matter if K loses a lawsuit or goes belly-up because any other scenario is extremely unlikely. In other words, what other reason would they have to terminate service to users? If they terminate service for no reason, they're in PR hell and would lose a ton of sales. So, unless they wanted to intentionally implode the company, I can't see them doing it other than by a forced court order.

And let's look at that for a second. What is the likely scenario for that? Any such court order would likely require them to remove the CSS key functionality only as that is where the contract dispute lies, not disable the whole system. So, who's to say that such an upgrade couldn't allow users to add back their own DeCSS key like every other rippng solution does? For that matter, if it looked like they had to shut down, they could turn over control of the metadata info directly to consumers. I have a hard time envisioning the doomsday scenario you outline that would leave systems completely unusable regardless of what the contract says. And, by the way if that would ever happen, users would likely know in advance and could disconnect systems from the net to prevent an unwanted upgrade. In that case there would no longer be a contract to honor and therefore no requirement by the user to keep the system connected to the net.

You asked if they would change aspects of the contract and they declined. That's their right and your right as a customer to walk away. Just because they have certain terms they don't want to change that you object to doesn't make them a bad organization. They're just not the right one for you.

Basically it boils down to this. You think the EULA gives them too much power to and I think they'd likely never act on that power unless forced to and, even then, they'd either provide users with an alternate solution or the advance notice to prevent the disablement. My experience with K as well as common business sense tells me this. But, you have the right to be cautious about future unknown elements and not buy because of that. I personally don't think there's much to worry about, especially since they're not going to lose.

Jeff

K is significantly faster, more reliable, and has better components than a $1500 pc.

To try to list them is silly as we are looking at experience.

But i will be a little silly.
constant logging so that any errors in the system are reported back to K so that they have advance notice on disk errors or other system glitches. this allows them to send a replacement drive disc before anybody knows there is an issue

Speed to search is lightning fast

When you hit play on a movie it jumps to the first frame of the movie, tells the projector/scaler/masking system EXACTLY what the correct aspect ratio is so that the viewing experience is top notch.

Resume watching the movie from where you left off with no work needed.

Jump to the episode of a season of TV shows without any extra effort. Or watch the entire season.

Favourite scenes... create as many as you want.

Ability to create playlists.

GO to TV A and see all movies in my collection. Go to TV B and only see G rated movies (as that is what the zone is set for) so the kids cannot see things i do not want them to see.

Get content based recomendations so that the family can more easily find a movie that everybody wants to watch. Also use it to find those movies that you might have forgotten that you had.


I could go on and on, but these are all experience related and to most, that is why you buy a K.

And i have to mention again that you cannot buy a turnkey system that rips DVD's. no matter what you say or how you choose to word it, that software is illegal. I know that nobody will come after you personally, but it does not get beyond the fact that the law is being broken.

As far as the EULA goes, there are lots of people who feel that the EULA is not an issue. sure they dropped the reviews... there was a very good reason for it that they did not want to have to check for permission with every customer. some of the stuff may seem extreme, but how should they word it if they have to drop a feature due to some obscure reason that is not worth talking about? What if they have to change a feature because it ends up being a little buggy for some obscure setups? You obviously do not like their EULA, we get that. but there are lots of people who are fine with it. CEO's, lawyers, doctors, all sorts of people.

It is too bad that you are so against it due to the EULA. you are missing a great product.

With all the pontificating, I still have yet to see an answer to the original question:What, exactly that can a K-scape system do, that a good Vista HTPC backed by a storage array can't?
The K system can allow K to discontinue one, some or all of the features. The HTPC cannot. ;)

Hi

This could be the scenario :

DIY person beleives he can replicate a built-for-the purpose appliance with Vista
DIY person invests hundred of hours and of dollars in the project.
After several additionnal hoours researching, DIY person declares victory.
DIY person is very proud.
One day press the "play" button and gets a blue screen... Re-invest hundreds of hours to fix problem.. Find it declares victory .. again...

Cost is one of these strange concepts that seem so intuitive and yet are not well understood... I would like an HTPC person to tell me how long it took him or her to get his or her HTPC( from start to finish including time to get the parts and to research them) working reliably. Please includes the hours of research and the installation time as well as the time you spent online fishing for accessories... Now tell me how much you really think your contraption, er HTPC, really cost?

Erik - I got the reference. I'll leave this thread to the K-fawners. Sorry for pointing out something I think is important. Enjoy the Kool-aid. :)

hey, i like K but would love something that was more affordable and had 1/10th the features.

But i still come back to Vista can't rip DVD's. Not legally anyways. ANd if i do decide to get one of those programs (that microsoft could decide to nuke later on since it is illegal software) how do i get all the metadata? How do i skip all the 30 freakin minutes of warnings at the front of a disney movie so that when my kids want to watch a movie they can just do so?

And just for the record, everytime microsoft upgrades software; features come, and features go. However most of the time we are not really aware of what left. So do not for a minute think that K is the only company that removes features without asking. It always happens with software companies.

Hi

An aside. A few hours ago a friend of mine received an update from Microsoft on his Sony VAIO laptop... The update asked him to restart his PC which he did. Blank laptop screen .. Can work on a monitor but not on the laptop screen... A call to Microsoft.. later, he was informed to call Sony... Think about such an occurrence with a Media Center PC... The OS is MSoft the PC is from someone else, the after market Graphic Card...To me that is one of the case for made-for-the-purpose appliances. One, single point of contact. .The appliance, it does not work, you call THEM..

8 hours later and his screen remains blank.... by the way

The poster asked for opinions. Mine is to buy an item that has a consumer friendly EULA or none at all.
In other words, never buy anything ;) :).

You can buy a CINERAMAX Megahedron... Friendly Eula.

With all the pontificating, I still have yet to see an answer to the original question:



The Alienware reference is inaccurate. An $8000 alienware is significantly faster, more reliable, and has better components than a $500 pc.

Perhaps I'll just go find a demo somewhere. Maybe it truly is a Lexus vs Rolls Royce thing..a PC vs Mac thing. I guess some people may just want something that is completely simple and trouble free. As for me, Vista is dead simple, and my wife and 7 year old have no trouble navigating Vista MCE to watch the movies, DVDs and music they want. But I realize that there are people out there who can't figure out how to set their VCR time, so..
Dizzman gave a few answers and I'll give some examples as well.

First of all, let's clarify what I am Not claiming. The K players offer very good picture quality that is comparable to high performance single disc DVD players. Other than that, I make no special claims for them in that regard. i.e. I do not claim that the pic quality from a K player is any better than a good high-end HTPC with a good video card.

The K system has a very specific purpose and market. It is targeted at people who have (or are going to buy) a large whole house audio/video system, (or perhaps though less frequently a very high-end dedicated theater) and want to be able to choose from a large library of content, in the case of a whole house system from anywhere in the house. And they want to be able to do so in a COMPLETELY quick, flawless and seamless way. In other words, using a very slick interface.

I reject the idea that this is *necessarily* related to how technologically sophisticated a person is. I can easily master Media Center or any other system out there. I am however, *personally* unimpressed with it. On the other hand I love my K system. Nevertheless, I fully acknowledge that the value the K brings, as with any product, is relative. It will have provide great value to some, but not to others. I can tell you that I know people who have owned both and would never go back. Perhaps member CMJO will stop in and comment.

Now to answer your questions, here are SOME of the things K can do, in no particular order.

1. Support up to 25 (IIRC) DVD's being played simultaneously from the same server.

2. The GUI is beautiful and you could sit your grandmother down and have her master it in 5 minutes. Yet you give up no power for the elegant GUI, it's far more powerful as far as *movies* than anything in Vista (granted it is not a DVR, at least not yet...).

3. When I select a movie and hit play the movie starts to play, INSTANTLY. No DVD menus, no FBI warning (if I want to access the DVD menus I still can).

4. I can pause a movie or select a "pause point". It will remain "paused" for 30 days during which I can start watching it at the moment I paused it in any OTHER room. And I can do so even if someone else finished watching it in the room it originally started in.

5. K records the *precise* aspect ratio for every film. If I have a theater with a multi-aspect ratio screen it will set the screen to the same precise aspect ratio as the film.

6. You can create custom previews or combinations of favorite movies scenes on the fly. And then play them as previews or demos for guests. Some people really enjoy creating previews and when they have guests have a custom preview or theater intro start as they start a movie.

7. K provides an EXTENSIVE RS-232 protocol (plus IP control). It can be fully integrated (NOT just controlled) from any touchscreen. I can see everything from cover art to time elapsed and time remaining - basically what ever I want on a touchscreen. K also provides the ability to inform the control system of its state, so that if a movie is paused the lights can rise, and if the movie is put back into play the lights can dim.

8. Insert the disc and it is burned and recognized and added to the system with all meta data. Period. No fancy footwork involved.

9. Self monitoring as mentioned earlier. On occasions where I have been doing work on my network and had it disconnected I get an E-mail from K telling me the K is not on the network. If a disc is not performing as it should K notifies the Client pro actively and sends them a new one.

10. It does not crash. It does not get slow. It just works.

Again, I am not claiming this is for everyone. It is a very high-end product targeted at people who want this type of solution. For such projects I couldn't even consider using Vista. I personally do not like MCE, but I am perfectly capable of understanding why it is a good solution for many people.

Thanks QQQ. That was an excellent response, and one I can respect.
Everything you mention here is possible with an HTPC, although it requires quite a setup.
I'm using a surplus fibrechannel storage array that has the reliability and performance to do all of this, but its certainly an unusual setup.
I have to make a few comments though...for Dizzman
The "jump directly to movie" feature is a result of PROPERLY ripping the DVD and removing all the PUP crap, and just ripping the desired tracks. One can do this with any DVD ripping program, and many will do it in semi-automated fashion. As to the legal issues, they are immaterial, like speeding, except there is no cop with a radar gun. And of course, the DMCA only applies in the US, not the rest of the world.
RS-232 is a simple serial port, that any HTPC has (or can have with USB converter).
Self monitoring. Can be setup with any number of available software packages for windows. My storage array for example issues SNMP traps for any PFA (predictive failure analysis) errors.

Oh, and as for Franz..
One day press the "play" button and gets a blue screen... Re-invest hundreds of hours to fix problem.. Find it declares victory .. again...
You must have some pretty lousy systems. While most people have reported issues with Vista, stability on SHIPPING, CURRENT hardware from a top-end vendor is not one of them. Vista has been rock solid on my Vaio, and laptop.


Franz, if you're getting bluescreens in Vista, you have a lousy system. Heck, I have not had a bluescreen for 3 years, since I switched from XP to 2003. Vista is very stable, if you have the right hardware.

Proteus,

I do not agree at all with you saying that everything QQQ mentions is possible with an HTPC. I would not get into details but most of them are impossible to do with an HTPC and the ones you can do, for example removing trailers and other crap, have to be done manually, take time and are not easy to master.

Also, there is no bi-directional rs232 control for MCE.

I have been using MCE2005 with my movies in my home for a long time now. I have over 200 full size ripped DVDs in a 6TB+ NAS. I have even managed to make the system multi-room, not as easy as it sounds - best way a PC in every room or a pc for every room (in a rack).

When friends ask me to help them do the same for their home I always tell the NOT to do it. This is why:

Windows Crashes

AnyDVD updates every 2-3 days, so you have to go to their site, download the new program, install it and restart.

To rip a DVD involves the following steps:
1)Create a folder with the movie name
2)Start the dvd ripping program
3)Point to the ripped folder
4)Uncheck the crap you do not want to rip
5)Rip the movie
6)Start the My Movies management program
7)Search for the movie you just ripped
8)Point to the ripped folder
9)Download the metadata

All the above steps require a KEYBOARD and a MOUSE to be done.

With the K system the only thing you have to do is: INSERT THE DISC. Nothing else.

To understand the power of the K system you have to demo it. The sytem is years ahead of anything else on the market. Some would even consider the interface and the brilliant integration with AMX/Crestron worth it.I have been doing what you are decribing as equivalent to the K, and I am really frusrated with the unreliability and crashes of my system, the countless days I spent setting up, updating and upgrading and the fact that almost no one else except me can use it. The two systems are surely not equivalent and you must not know enough about the K system if you are comparing them.

And the difference is even more, much more, for people that are not computer literal like me or you, people who just want to spend their time watching movies from a library the easiest way in all the rooms and not spend their time MANUALLY ripping the movies and FIXING and UPDATING their PCs.

I am waiting to see what K will do with HD but I am almost sure in the next months I will buy the system and throw all the PC stuff out of the window where they belong.

3. When I select a movie and hit play the movie starts to play, INSTANTLY. No DVD menus, no FBI warning (if I want to access the DVD menus I still can).


5. K records the *precise* aspect ratio for every film. If I have a theater with a multi-aspect ratio screen it will set the screen to the same precise aspect ratio as the film.

7. K provides an EXTENSIVE RS-232 protocol (plus IP control). It can be fully integrated (NOT just controlled) from any touchscreen. I can see everything from cover art to time elapsed and time remaining - basically what ever I want on a touchscreen. K also provides the ability to inform the control system of its state, so that if a movie is paused the lights can rise, and if the movie is put back into play the lights can dim.




The problem as I see it is that K glorifies an unacceptable format DVD. The name of the game is cable card HD DVR. Period.With HD DVR there are no FBI warnings.

I am not saying to just use Media Center but MC overlayed with the Autonomic Home AMX screen system.

You guys have to see the Autonomic home application running on the amx screen with Vista MC and xbox 360's, it is extremely sleek.Specially now that is full 1080p in the remote rooms thanks to the XBOX 360 Elite.

http://cineramax.com/images/1controls.jpg

http://cineramax.com/images/1MCECS_Vista.jpg

http://cineramax.com/images/autonomic-MyRecHdPlay.jpg

http://cineramax.com/images/autonomic-NowControlling.jpg

http://cineramax.com/images/autonomic-ZoneSelect.jpg

http://cineramax.com/images/autoMCXZonePlay.jpg

http://cineramax.com/images/autonomic-1show2zones.jpg

Plus this is the way it will work in the R4:

http://cineramax.com/images/R4_AutoFavs.jpg http://cineramax.com/images/R4_AFavData.jpg http://cineramax.com/images/R4_ASynopsis.jpg


Regarding the header file to control masking systems, I have heard from Deniss and others that this feature does not work on K.

I have seen the xbox system being controlled by IP and it operates in unison like a house wide octopus.

The name of the game is cable card HD DVR. Period.
Here's a good review of a new Vista PC with a cable card. The really good part starts a few pages in. Dell has sent special engineers to make sure they get the PC working for the review and Time Warner have also sent some of their "VIP" engineers. It takes them two days to get it working.

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2959&p=1

Here are a few tidbits:

Dell asked us if it was alright if a handful of representatives accompanied the system to our office in North Carolina, just to make sure things went smoothly. We didn't anticipate any problems but said that if it made them feel more comfortable, they were welcome to oversee the initial setup. From our perspective the setup couldn't be simpler: 1) Setup the system, 2) Insert CableCARD, 3) Watch TV. It turned out that we were a bit optimistic.

Upon asking for a CableCARD, the TWC representative informed us of a few things. CableCARDs aren't available for self install, it usually takes about 3 days to get one in after the order has been placed, and the installer would be available after then. We were then warned that features like On Demand and the program guide would not be available with CableCAR

The first day ended in a series of failed attempts, Dell extended its stay in sunny North Carolina, and we vowed to try again tomorrow. This time we would have AMD, Microsoft, and more Time Warner folks on call.

The second day started off on a new foot. The same Time Warner tech from the day before showed up, but this time his supervisor was with him. The two brought new CableCARDs just in case the ones we tried earlier were somehow too old to work with the tuners. A third Time Warner employee also showed up, this one a regional digital engineer. A fourth Time Warner representative appeared during the course of the day, albeit due to a mistake in scheduling.

The three Time Warner folks also went to work; our peak number of concurrent telephone conversations was about 4 at this point (and that's not counting the one Time Warner rep who had two phones up to his head at once).

http://aycu26.webshots.com/image/11705/2001970927962214352_rs.jpg

And finally my favorite:

In a particularly hilarious moment, the Time Warner technician on site passed the phone to Gary Lusk of Dell to work with another Time Warner tech on the phone.

http://images.dailytech.com/nimage/4361_3502_large_iOCUR.jpg


The CableCard-ready TV Wonder Digital Cable TunerATI's newest TV tuner bug forces system manufacturers to delay Media Center PCs

AMD's newest CableCard endeavor may have hit a snag. Systems manufactured with the ATI TV Wonder Digital Cable Tuner have a bug that has halted shipments of the new PCs.

ATI engineers claim the bug is very minor. "The bug occurs when the TV Wonder Digital Cable Tuner attempts to sync signal on an all-digital tuner," said one AMD Taiwan engineer.

The bug seems to affect those who have TV Wonder Digital Cable Tuners with specific all-digital providers. With the current firmware, users will get a "no signal error" after inserting the CableCard.

"[We] will send out firmwares to fix the sync problem in the next week," added the engineer. Firmware upgrades will be made available to any customers who already have tuners. In the interim, ATI has stopped shipment on new batches of the tuners until it can ship cards with the newest updates.

"The firmware updates have essentially delayed our [system] shipments by two weeks," stated a North American system manufacturer.

Other system builders state that the bug can easily be fixed by rebooting the tuner. Velocity Micro, who unveiled the first CableCard-ready PCs in North America, declined to comment about the bug.

This is not the first time ATI has run into bug problems at launch. A crippling error forced all TV Wonder 650 Tuners off store shelves until proper firmwares could fix QAM sync errors. Today, however, the TV Wonder 650 is one of the most reliable and robust tuners on the market.

Update 04/05/07: AMD Multimedia product manager Shane Parfitt adds the following:

With one specific CableCard from Scientific Atlanta Networks, the digital cable signal is lost if the ATI TV Wonder Digital Cable Tuner switches to analog reception and then back again. It’s important to note that it's just this one card – the ATI TV Wonder Digital Cable Tuner is compatible with all the other currently available cards, such as those from Motorola (which has over half the market) and even others from Scientific Atlanta Networks. However, we’ve been able to find a work around for it in our hardware, through a firmware update, and we anticipate that this will be with our customers by the end of April. The delay is mostly due to the certification process CableLabs requires for this change.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cable Card is a PIA to get going, but a necessary evil.


from daylitech.com

Proteus 7

I think Q^3 and Charris have taken care of the replies, especially Q^3 last post. Peter... please re-read Q^3 post...

Peter... please re-read Q^3 post...

Are you talking about the excellent article by ANANDTECH? That is an advanced beta testing review. Bugs are expected, and subsequently found.

Or are you asking me not to opine because I suggest DVD's should be destroyed or at least not used in high end systems? And therefore pushing for an all hd solution? In other words the thread is about DVD servers and people that have realized that it is impossible for a dvd to produce a great picture on the very best displays should refrain from trolling in this thread? Is that what you are asking?

Are you suggesting that the reviewers experience of an advanced beta testing
product should be used as an excuse to chicken out of the Vista solution?

Believe me that I will make the system work and that I will have an entire household using the Vista system. I may try to disuade them from downloading content which is where the hangups are.

I believe that if you limit the useability of the Vista system to cable card set top box for multiroom hd streaming, that it should be a fairly robust platform, nothwistanding the initial Bable Card reader bugs.

Cineramax- allow xbox 360 elite to read dvd, blu-ray, or hddvd rips off of your network server better than K does and will with hd disks, and I will buy.

DVD has less picture quality than either bluray or hddvd, that is a no brainer. But this idea that consumers will drop what they are doing for a half-arsed implementation of a non-working cable card technology and chuck their dvd collection is absurd and not even within the scope of my original question when I started this thread.



I have now read through this thread to the end- haven't stopped in for a while.


Kaleidescape will handle both formats when managed copy is finalized. When it does, it will continue its absolutely beautiful, fault-proof, so simple a child can use it interface in to the domain of 1080P source material at the price of a really good European car. And nothing else will be able to touch it, save itunes. And itunes does not do what K does.

And the experience K provides cannot be touched by any CURRENT htpc implementation for all the reasons discussed earlier by any custom installer TODAY. That may change soon.

That said, I will probably not be buying it soon for one simple reason- I cannot afford it.


yet.


Sorry- everyone got a rant, so I wanted one too.

Also- I heard a demo of a meridian dsp8000 system with hddvd today through their farjouda projector. Wow- unbelievable.

Am I right in saying that 1080P video at 24 fps- output unscaled, un touched, un messed with out off of an hd disk is pretty much the holy-grail of video performance right now? I mean, no scaling, no transformation, nothing- as long as the projector can display 1080p at 24p, that will be the best it could get? Unless you are running a CIH setup, I guess...

Because this is what will be output by K when they do get hd setup in the system, and I am really lookign forward to it.

Because this is what will be output by K when they do get hd setup in the system, and I am really lookign forward to it.

Great I'll be able to include it in the design then.

FYI 24 fps is a a legacy frame rate that is quite annoying to look at. With Meridian Faroudja's Motion Compensated Temporal Interpolation you will be able to recreate the frame before and the frame after for a more fluid 72fps presentation.

The problem as I see it is that K glorifies an unacceptable format DVD.
The problem is that you are comparing a product that does not exist yet versus one that does. It also has no relevance or similarity versus the K as was pointed out by iansilv. One is a movie server. The other is a DVR for recording cable TV!

I will appear to be digressing here but there is a method to my madness. I read an article in Scientific American a while back titled something like "why do people lie". The consensus was that people lie because they have learned from experience that it WORKS and that you often get rewarded for lying, yet don’t get rewarded for telling the truth!

It occurred to me that every time we see the discussion of K supporting HD come up just how true this is. Most companies are all too happy to lie or at a minimum mislead. To promise that which they cannot guarantee. We see a shining example of that with regard to MMC mandatory managed copy. The companies trying to hook consumers are all too willing to promise MMC but won’t even tell us what the limitations will be! They won’t give us any details! It could end up being one more huge DRM cluster f*ck.

K on the other hand is being quite truthful. They have said they want to support HD but they refuse to make false promises. So what do (some) people do? They rant and rant about how there is no guarantee with K that it will support HD. They’d much rather be lied to. There are currently about 30 different companies offering what they term to be "Media Servers" on the market. With the exception of K which designed it's own OS, the others are based on Linux or Windows. Do ANY of them support burning HD or Bd DVD? NO! Not one! They support DVD because CSS was broken. They do NOT support HD or BD DVD in any way shape or form.

So let’s bring a dose of reality back to this discussion. Vista does NOT currently support burning HD or BD DVD. There is no media server ANYWHERE that supports burning HD or BD DVD. ALL it does is promises to support is what ever those formats allow. And we don’t know what they will allow!
The name of the game is cable card HD DVR. Period.With HD DVR there are no FBI warnings.
That’s a joke, right? Do commercials count?

I do agree that I’d like to see a well designed DVR that allows unlimited storage. Whether that is Windows Vista or a Tivo that external storage can be added to. Since MS will support such functionality soon, I’ll point out that a complete GUI redesign will be needed if that extra storage space will be useful. It would become very problematic for instance if there is no way to archive (I don’t mean remove from hard drive which will of course probably not be allowed) recording that you want to save and get them out of “current recordings”. You would not want to have to sort through 50 episodes of 24 every time you want to watch the latest episode that was recorded. Perhaps this functionality is already supported?
Regarding the header file to control masking systems, I have heard from Dennis and others that this feature does not work on K.
I’ll tell that to all of the people that are using it :).

Great I'll be able to include it in the design then.

FYI 24 fps is a a legacy frame rate that is quite annoying to look at. With Meridian Faroudja's Motion Compensated Temporal Interpolation you will be able to recreate the frame before and the frame after for a more fluid 72fps presentation.

What I meant was that the original digital video is only processed at the point of display- as in, it is not encoded on the disk at 1080p, taken off and sent over at 1080i (witha quality loss), re sampled to 1080p (with a quality loss), then recounted from 1080 24 to 108060 or some other number not multiplied by 24 as the original signal (again, quality loss)

So knock yourself out cinema max man! I cant wait to see what you put together!

And QQQ- thank you for the excellent reponse.

Thanks for the compliment :).

QQQ,

yes your arguments are excellent and the only way to answer them is avoiding them. People that are not in the business do not (fortunately a lot that are not DO!) understand that everybody is Not a DIYER and a computer nerd.

I completely agree that CINERAMAX is comparing a cable DVR to a movie server. One records what the cable tv shows the other "records" whatever dvd you choose to feed it.

Abour the dvd's aspect ratio sense please speak to Mr. Pointdexter in this forum that has a SR 4-way masking screen and ask him how the system works. I have seen it in the UK with the exact same screen and it works flawlessly. Even a small child can use it.

There is no reliable alternative to the K system out there. At least for now.

The title of this thread is how the K system will handle BD and HD-DVD. I suggest we stick to that and stop arguing whether K is worth the money until at least a similar system comes out and PROVES itself to the market.

So do you expect K will take the HD path? If yes when do you estimate that to happen?

Also I remember some people mentioning that K might also go towards the DVR path. Anybody has any info on that?

So do you expect K will take the HD path? If yes when do you estimate that to happen?
To be honest, I think there is an element of this discussion that is a bit silly. Silly as in people ask the question (I am not saying you are) as if it's a "decision" K will make. I don't see it as a decision in the sense that it's simply a matter of whether it will be possible due to DRM issues. K is chomping at the bit to support HD, but:

1. Are not about to invest millions right out of the gate attempting to support both HD and BD only to see one fail in a blaze of fire. They want to see an an indication EITHER that one is winning OR that it's going to be a real battle for years and that their will be large bodies of content to support.

People need to keep in mind that when K adds an HD player it is not like companies that just build a DVD player. it means a major commitment. It means they have to start adding the infor for every DVD to their service. It means their players (not just readers) need to support it.

2. Or perhaps they will use the dual reader.

3. I also think that with the DRM issues they are keeping their plans very close to their belt. Making public pronouncements when MMC details may still be being worked out behind closed doors would be very foolish.

The only thing I know for sure is that I expect them to do everything conceivable to support it. It means MORE sales for them. Not only because people want HD but have you thought about how many more $$$ sales it means for them because of the increased storage demand?! They WANT to support it.

I do not know when we will see it. I am not waiting. I am very careful when it comes to certain purchases. I would not spend anything more than $1000 as an example on a 1280 x 720 single ship DVD at this moment, to give an example. I don't see the value (not saying I wouldn't spend more on a 1920 x 1080 machine). On the other hand, I *personally* refuse to allow the powers that be to make me wait an indefinite period of time to find out whether they in their infinite benevolence will (gasp) allow me to burn a HD/BD DVD to my movie server. I have a fantastic product that I love that is years ahead of everything else and I have total confidence that K will do EVERYTHING in their power to support it. IF they don't (and I am very hopeful that will NOT be the case) I know the only reason that would not be the case is that Nazi Hollywood OR anticompetitive forces in the computer industry somehow manage to prevent it.

I sat on the fence for a few years with K because of the lawsuit and finally decided to Not allow the DVD association to continue to stop me from purchasing a great product because of their Nazi lawsuit. I DID still inform all of my customers of the suit so they could make their won decision.

*Personally* I came to the philosophical conclusion that as a consumer I wanted to support the company and that by not purchasing their product I was allowing the likes of the DVD association to stifle the creation of great and legal products. Now that I have one I can say that I am glad I made the decision.

Now the funny thing is that even though K won the battle on regular DVD, all over again people are being forced to worry about buying this great product because of the same damn nefarious forces. I say f*ck em :).
Also I remember some people mentioning that K might also go towards the DVR path. Anybody has any info on that?
I do not other than to say they are well aware of the demand and that I and other dealers have requested it as a feature. I feel they could design one hell of a DVR! On its own it would make no sense for them to do so, but in combination with their current offerings I think it makes perfect sense. They would need to offer a Tivo like box that connects to their server.

You are right the Title of the thread should have alerted me to stay on topic. We have like three threads going so don't asked me how it hapenned. I am still so looking forward to in 60 days or so playing with the system based on the 7 tera Vista and AMX and the Xbox360RE because to "my standards" at least "it's watchable" on a decent display device. I now exit this thread with all my Rube Goldberg Cable Card contraptions stage left.

i was going to comment on the screen masking comment.

There are lots of people with them. If anybody has a system, all you have to do is telnet into the player and hit play. you will see all the masking info as plain as day. line one has the preset, line 2 has the correction info for EXACT masking. that is info that is custom captured by K. it is not in any database.

If proteus7 ever builds a system that can do everything on Q's list as well as the K can do it, I will eat my shorts. It's not going to happen.

I can imagine that most of that list can be duplicated on a homegrown HTPC with considerable effort. But watching the attempt unfold would be a dramatic lesson in the value---yes, value---that the K system provides those of us whose time value is somewhere north of minimum wage.

I did not respond as of course an HTPC cannot do most of these things. There are only some fields where things can be overpriced just for the sake of being overpriced. Hard drive servers is not one of them. An an example, there are plenty of people who will pay $10,000 for a watch they provides NO functionality above and beyond a $25 one. If there are people willing to do the same with a video server, I'd sure like to meet them.

As an example, 10+ years ago we were selling $5000 200 disc CD changers. One day a rep came in and said Sony was going to be releasing a $500 200 disc player. $5000 200 disc changers weren't on the market too much longer because there was nothing they did substantially better than the $500 ones.

Relating that to K, while I know there seem to be a fair number of people out there suffering under the delusion that there are ultra rich people just dying to throw there money away, the truth is that most of them spend their money very carefully, and if a HTPC really could do what a K does, K would be dead in the water tomorrow because custom installers everywhere would love to have a cheaper product that does what the K does.

Edit: Please note K is not an audiophile product. People do buy audiophile products all the time that offer no improvement over less expensive products, but the audio market is quite a bit different than the video and custom installation markets. Of course there are always some exceptions to every rule :) - I'm speaking in generalities.

Feature checklists will always be an unrealistic means of comparing.

THey tell you if it does it, but now how it does it.

I liked your comments about the future of HD and manufacturers who promise the moon Q. THat is always the hardest part. Should you promise something you "WANT" to do? or hold off until you know IF you can do it.

Feature checklists will always be an unrealistic means of comparing.

THey tell you if it does it, but now how it does it.

I liked your comments about the future of HD and manufacturers who promise the moon Q. THat is always the hardest part. Should you promise something you "WANT" to do? or hold off until you know IF you can do it.
Another great example of people hearing what they want to hear and believing what they want to believe is easily observed by anyone that gives proposals. I can remember many instances, as I am sure anyone in almost any trade can of meeting someone and being asked how long something would take and giving them an accurate answer. Someone else gives them an answer that is 1/4 as long and they go with that because it's what they want to hear. 3 months later the person who told them the project would take 1 month is still working on it and they are still paying for it.

I think this is probably the reason that only one house I've worked on in the past 10 years has been finished by the contractor on time. Because the contractor knows that if they tell the client at the beginning that the house will take 2 years to build they'll go with the guy that will tell them it will take 1 year. Even though that guy will take 2 years too :D. I'm simplifying quite a bit, but there's a lot of truth in it ;).

As far as feature checklists, they are almost always laughable. I could write a feature checklist that makes Vista MCE look like it kicks Kaleidescape's ass. It would be complete and total bulls*it but it would be very easy to create such a comparison.

Another great example of people hearing what they want to hear and believing what they want to believe is easily observed by anyone that gives proposals. I can remember many instances, as I am sure anyone in almost any trade can of meeting someone and being asked how long something would take and giving them an accurate answer. Someone else gives them an answer that is 1/4 as long and they go with that because it's what they want to hear. 3 months later the person who told them the project would take 1 month is still working on it and they are still paying for it.

I think this is probably the reason that only one house I've worked on in the past 10 years has been finished by the contractor on time. Because the contractor knows that if they tell the client at the beginning that the house will take 2 years to build they'll go with the guy that will tell them it will take 1 year. Even though that guy will take 2 years too :D. I'm simplifying quite a bit, but there's a lot of truth in it ;).



SO true!!

Here's how simple it boils down to for me. My wife never wants to use a computer for any kind of audio/video entertainment. She, like I, am a child of the digital age. However, unlike myself, she loathes technology rather than love it like I do. She feels that way because often, new tech is confusing, doesn't work as advertised, and fails more than it should. In our house, their are only 2 techy devices she uses regularly (excluding common items like cell phones, cameras, etc). One is Tivo and the other is the K. Why? Because they both work very well, make you forget that they are actually computers, and are easy to learn how to use and navigate.

I've seen and used lots of DVRs, but none of them make the experience as easy for novice users as Tivo does. It might not be as full-featured, but it specializes in making the experience pleasurable for even the most tech skiddish amongst us. K does that same thing for movie servers. In my house, that's invaluable. I have tried to teach my wife how to use a variety of other gadgets, but she inevitably never uses them. These 2 she does all the time and the reasons are clear. I could be getting more fucntionality from an HTPC, but I'd be teh only one using it...

Jeff

Time to change the wife then... ...just kidding.

Time to change the wife then... ...just kidding.

Heck no. If not for her I wouldn't have most of my toys! :D

Jeff

Jeff has a very unique wife and not one that ANY of us would want to swap out!

Now for another question. Is there a way to copy TiVo'd content to the K?

So let’s bring a dose of reality back to this discussion. Vista does NOT currently support burning HD or BD DVD. There is no media server ANYWHERE that supports burning HD or BD DVD. ALL it does is promises to support is what ever those formats allow. And we don’t know what they will allow!
Bullcrap. Vista DOES allow burning HD or BDDVD. Why? because its an "open system" not closed and proprietary. For the 90% of the world not covered by the DMCA, its a great solution. For those who don't give a *#)(@ about the DMCA, its also a great solution. God bless Slysoft!


1. Support up to 25 (IIRC) DVD's being played simultaneously from the same server.

Any decent storage array can handle that bitstream, not a big deal

Also, there is no bi-directional rs232 control for MCE.
What are you smoking? RS232 has been around for DECADES. Its an obsolete protocol, but supported by every PC,Mac, etc in existence. Nowadays, I'd use IP, but if you still need RS232 to talk to legacy hardware, there are lots of apps that will do it.

Windows Crashes
AnyDVD updates every 2-3 days, so you have to go to their site, download the new program, install it and restart.
To rip a DVD involves the following steps:
My Vista systems don't crash. Perhaps I'm blessed? Perhaps I carefully pick stable hardware and drivers? Perhaps its because my job involves designing servers with 99.99% uptime?

So, I actually took a look at a K-scape system, and truly, its nothing spectacular.
Essentially, it relies on a database, that K-scape wrote and maintains, that stores ripping parameters, and best display resolution, aspect ratio, etc information for each movie. I am sure there are movies out there that are NOT in the database, just as I am also sure that if K-scape ever goes under, there will be no new database updates. The "intelligence" it displays when ripping and displaying DVDs is nothing more than looking up that DVD in a database.

So...
+Usable by the non-computer literate. Simple enough for grandma to use
+Slick interface
+Linux based OS, with much customization and flexbility.
+Brainless, perfect ripping of most DVDs
-Does not handle HD-DVD or Blu-Ray
-Does not handle custom rips. Probably does not handle non-Region 1 disks
-Highly expensive..more than 10x more than Vista MCE
-No cablecard support. No HDTV support. No watching Sopranos on HBO-HD
-Proprietary, closed system. Locked into K-scape for storage. I can buy 7.5TB of storage for ~2500 at Frys...how much would K-scape charge me for this?

I'm not going to respond to the factual errors in your bullet list. But at least you're getting somewhere. You're freely acknowledging that the K does things that MCE doesn't---some things it will likely never do, or can't do, and other things it can't do without significant added work.

On the other hand, none of us thinks that the K is better in all the aspects you've listed. Of course it doesn't yet do HDDVD and BD ripping. (And I suspect neither will MCE soon, by the way.) Of course it doesn't have DVR functionality. So the K is better in some respects, and worse in others.

But once that's established, the argument is over. Having a discussion about price is absolutely idiotic. The fact is that the PC-based solution is the better value for you because you don't place a significant cost on those aspects that the K does better. That's fine. But other people do. It may be hard for you to believe, but for some people it is simply not acceptable to have to spend time ripping their own movies. For some people, it is simply not acceptable to have to navigate a more difficult interface. For some people, it is simply not acceptable to have an imperfectly integrated control system.

And for such people, the added cost of the K is not necessarily money wasted.

I'm frankly surprised you're being so dense about this. Your job is, and I quote, "designing servers with 99.99% uptime." Do you really place such a low value on that expertise? Sure, you can buy most of the hardware at Fry's for a fraction of the cost. But don't you think the time invested in selecting the right hardware, assembling it correctly, installing the right software and drivers, tuning it for performance and stability, etc. is trivial? If you were being paid to do all that work for someone else, how much would you charge?

I'll bet that if you took the time required to approach the K's ease of use, stability, and system integration, and multiplied it by your hourly salary+benefit rate, you would close that price gap real fast. So it only seems like a big gap to you because you're giving yourself a really good deal on your time. I'm not willing to do that; I'd rather let someone else pay me far more for my time.

Proteus,

Also, there is no bi-directional rs232 control for MCE.

I have been using MCE2005 with my movies in my home for a long time now.

Not completely true. My Movies has RS-232 control for the Sony DVD changer, and it would be very easy to write control code for other items, such as switchers, etc. Problem is getting Brian to incorporate it into his My Movies plug-in.

Exceptional Innovation is basically doing what a lot of people want K to do, through MCE and Vista, with their Lifeware system. IMHO, it and K could complement each other perfectly well.

We're in the process of ording plans now for our new home, and I definitely plan on installing a K system for my DVD's, mainly for the ease of setup and use. I do though wish K would expand the server's use to raw MPEG, DV, AVI files imported into the system, than just ripped DVD's, as I'd love to be able to store all of our home movies from one central server location.

Now for another question. Is there a way to copy TiVo'd content to the K?

You can import any DVD you like to the K, even a home burned one, so you could then import Tivo or whatever content you like onto the K that way. Direct transfers via Tivo Desktop, etc are not supported. I personally have loaded burned DVDs onto the system containing my wedding video, home movies of the kids, DVD slideshows, an old football game (Monday Night Miracle - Jets v Fins on MNF in 2000), etc. I know that K has worked with some users to import home HD content onto HDDs for addition to a K system. With future HD support, the latter should become as easy as importing SD DVDs now.

Jeff

So- though I might bump- the trial is over, BD+ seems like it will be implemented sooner rather than later, does anyone know anything about managed copy?

So- though I might bump- the trial is over, BD+ seems like it will be implemented sooner rather than later, does anyone know anything about managed copy?

You can do some web searching to learn a lot about what MMC is supposed to be. The question is, will it turn out to be what we all are hoping for and, perhaps more importantly, when will it be ratified into the final AACS spec? See this article on the issue that talks about MMC and the K ruling:

http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=198701588

I personally worry that the studios will delay and delay to, in effect, never follow through on their promise. That is one major problem with adopting a new format that doesn't have all of its promised features implemented yet.

Jeff

News.com's coverage of Vudu. (http://news.com.com/Vudu+casts+its+spell+on+Hollywood/2100-1026_3-6180048.html?tag=st.num)

Most interesting. Can't wait to see where this goes.

I am not interested in vudu unless it has the same or better pq than hddvd and bluray. Peer to peer sounds like it will be some half-arsed comrpessed "near dvd quality" thing. But we will see.

I am not interested in vudu unless it has the same or better pq than hddvd and bluray. Peer to peer sounds like it will be some half-arsed comrpessed "near dvd quality" thing. But we will see.

It was an interesting read. Honestly, I'm curious how backup is handled. I mean, let's say my box is fried. Do I get a new box and then am allowed to re-download the films because it's marked on my account? Does this mean I can't take my movie to my friend's house? What about extras? Could movies have "upgrades"? (a studio adds a comentary later for example) and then I only need to partially download the upgrade?

Could I access my box from any internet browser? That way I can download a movie from my desk at work and have it completely downloaded by the time I get home. (Yeah, I know it's supposed to start playing right away but I've seen my share of 'stuck' progress bars.)

I guess I'm just thinking out loud here.

It was an interesting read. Honestly, I'm curious how backup is handled. I mean, let's say my box is fried. Do I get a new box and then am allowed to re-download the films because it's marked on my account? Does this mean I can't take my movie to my friend's house? What about extras? Could movies have "upgrades"? (a studio adds a comentary later for example) and then I only need to partially download the upgrade?

Could I access my box from any internet browser? That way I can download a movie from my desk at work and have it completely downloaded by the time I get home. (Yeah, I know it's supposed to start playing right away but I've seen my share of 'stuck' progress bars.)

I guess I'm just thinking out loud here.
I think you're making a grievous mistake here ;). I doubt that the powers that be that like this box remotely give a flying f*ck about making a box that is consumer friendly or in ANY way addresses consumer wants. It's all about spoon feeding consumers what they want to feed them them.

one of their key points was that the PC is totally out of the picture. No PC... no piracy.

Hollywood is not keen on your PC being able to access their content.

All of the video download solutions have glaring flaws. Either they have less than DVD resolution, have unfriendly rental policies, don't allow transfers to any other device so you can only watch on the device it was downloaded to, don't offer the "extras" you get with disc based content, force you to buy/use proprietary hardware, don't offer full HD versions, etc. Many times the insult is compounded by a mix of the above. Because of laws like the DMCA, the options available for downloadable video content all have serious compromises. Without having to compete with legal DVD disc rips, the industry offers consumers these less than ideal solutions instead. Sure, bandwidth limitations and disagreements on how to go about it the best way play a role (after all the music industry is still bothering with multiple downloadable DRM formats that don't play well together), but I have to believe that if DVD ripping was legal we'd see better solutions than this by this point.

Vudu certainly does have their work cut out for them. They're asking consumers to shell out money for hardware that apparently can only be used for this service. The other major obstacle is their lack of name recognition. Apple TV, Tivo/Amazon, Microsoft's 360, etc are all well known names. They're also products that serve other purposes and, at least in the case of the 360 and Tivo, is a box consumers may already have. To me it's an uphill battle at least and I'd guess that they don't make it in the long run.

Jeff

My question is how can a startup without a released product (Vudu) get all major studies (save Sony) to license their movies, while Kaleidescape can't seem to get any?

My question is how can a startup without a released product (Vudu) get all major studies (save Sony) to license their movies, while Kaleidescape can't seem to get any?

That's a fair question and I wonder whether the DVDCCA CSS issue has turned the studios cold to K. As in, you found a loophole and got the best of us so we won't play ball with you on downloadable content. That's absolutely just sheer speculation though.

One other very possible reason could be K's small user base. I don't know anything about the licensing deals the studios have with content distributors, but the studios could be demanding contract clauses that contain minimum sales volumes or possibly some stiff up front cost just to get into the game. As the content owners, they can dictate the costs and terms especially in these earlier days of downloadable offerings when competition hasn't yet driven costs down. A fair argument could be made that it isn't worthwhile for the studios to bother with a distribution partner that can only do a relatively small sales volume. While Vudu may not succeed long term, convincing studios that their user base will be far greater than K's is easy given the vast difference in hardware costs.

Just my $0.02

Jeff

Well, Vudu looks like a disaster waiting to happen to me. They rely on (admitedly proprietary) peer to peer networking to download movie chunks to customers while customers are watching movies in real time??? Gosh, when I power down my home router, won't it be a drag that another customer's movie grinds to a halt? And aren't a lot of broadband connections asymetric meaning uploads speeds are a lot slower than download speeds (thus relying on peer to peer for real time movie watching being not a good idea) And they rely on predictive algorithms to pre-load the beginnings of movies onto your local hard drive. Well, what happens when you start to watch a non-predicted movie?

This idea that our current broadband infrastructure can support even DVD (forget HD!) real time movie watching isn't based on reality. The only thing that makes sense is an ordering model where you order one or a bunch of movies ahead of time and watch them after they have completely downloaded to a hard drive array - ie using hardware comparable to what Kaleidescape has in place. Hard drives are cheap enough now to implement a system where entire movie collections are downloaded over a period of weeks or months, and you pay for the downloaded content only when you watch it.

Maybe Kaleidescape needs to hire a Hollywood deal maker and get its ass in gear. According to that Vudu article, when Kaleidescape first started inquiring about this from Hollywood, they were too early. Things changed only about mid-last year...

Well, Vudu looks like a disaster waiting to happen to me. They rely on (admitedly proprietary) peer to peer networking to download movie chunks to customers while customers are watching movies in real time??? Gosh, when I power down my home router, won't it be a drag that another customer's movie grinds to a halt? And aren't a lot of broadband connections asymetric meaning uploads speeds are a lot slower than download speeds (thus relying on peer to peer for real time movie watching being not a good idea) And they rely on predictive algorithms to pre-load the beginnings of movies onto your local hard drive. Well, what happens when you start to watch a non-predicted movie?

This idea that our current broadband infrastructure can support even DVD (forget HD!) real time movie watching isn't based on reality. The only thing that makes sense is an ordering model where you order one or a bunch of movies ahead of time and watch them after they have completely downloaded to a hard drive array - ie using hardware comparable to what Kaleidescape has in place. Hard drives are cheap enough now to implement a system where entire movie collections are downloaded over a period of weeks or months, and you pay for the downloaded content only when you watch it.

Maybe Kaleidescape needs to hire a Hollywood deal maker and get its ass in gear. According to that Vudu article, when Kaleidescape first started inquiring about this from Hollywood, they were too early. Things changed only about mid-last year...

I agree completely, there is no way that the current internet structure in the U.S. could be used to create a system that could compare to the Kscape system in any way. (For comparison, assuming that you could upload at 8mps and download at 8mps, I think it would still take almost 9 days to download 750Gig. The old pony express could probably get data to you quicker via a mailed harddrive, so 1 or 2 day mail for a 750gig hd is way faster than almost any current internet connection).

I think the only way for an online system to match the Kscape system would be to have a local internet provider have Petabyte arrays with all the content and then stream that to you via WiMax (or a more reliable wireless signal) or via cable (should be enough bandwidth once all the analog junk is taken off). A system like that could actually be more robust than the Kscape (think access to all movies, music, tv, games etc. in the highest resolution available) but it would obviously take a lot of work to get the content providers and internet providers to agree on all the details (and a company like Kscape to make the interface work).

I think this is the future of where things are going but it will probably take at least 10 years or more before it really gets going. Alternatively, if there is a breakthough in massive storage (ie. without having a room full of servers), perhaps it could be possible to store all media (eg. think every disc owned by NetFlix and Napster) in your home. The content could be encrypted and then you only pay for what you access (I think Directv is or will be using this technology soon). Then once a week you would get a 1TB holographic disc to upload onto your home server that included last week's new releases.

I know both these ideas are far-fetched, but just thinking outside the box for what type of system could replace the current system of buying discs and then dealing with the DRM issues to access the media the way you want. In the meantime, it seems that there will be a never ending stream of products that will all sacrifice key features but advertise that they are the greatest product to have.

So- though I might bump- the trial is over, BD+ seems like it will be implemented sooner rather than later, does anyone know anything about managed copy?


http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/111570/hollywood-backs-managed-copying-of-movie-discs.html
Quote"Dan Glickman, who heads the Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA), told an industry conference that managed copying should be available for HD DVD discs by the end of the year, adding that he would like to see it enabled for standard DVDs as well, though this would require a new DRM system. He made no mention of Blu-ray, the rival high-definition format to HD DVD."

I have been saying all along that managed copy will be out with Vista Service Pack 2 sometime around the beginning of 08.

Well obviously Dan has been listening to you (aren't you the one that coined the term managed copy).

I have been saying all along that managed copy will be out with Vista Service Pack 2 sometime around the beginning of 08.

Amir said at least 6-12 month after the AACS finalization. So the earliest is around the 3Q08.

Replace a couple of words in your post and it reads exactly like some of the critics of the Apple iPod when it was first launched! :D

Uphill battle it may well be, but not insurmountable.

As for the other comments around whether the current Broadband networks can support this, perhaps not in North America, but in many other parts of the world, Broadband networks are already delivering standard definition broadcast as well as On-Demand TV over Broadband to the masses. Here in Hong Kong theres already just over a million subscribers of SD broadcast and On-Demand TV over Broadband (google PCCW NowTV). Korea and Japan has more than twice those number of subscribers. High Definition On-Demand TV over Broadband is also a reality in Japan today. I expect Verizon/FiOS isn't far off.

Other than with ADSL2 and FTTH, these services are delivered via standard multicast technology. Couple those with specialised peer-to-peer networking software/hardware.... suddenly Vudu doesn't sound so far fetched anymore. :)

Welcome to the real world. :)


All of the video download solutions have glaring flaws. Either they have less than DVD resolution, have unfriendly rental policies, don't allow transfers to any other device so you can only watch on the device it was downloaded to, don't offer the "extras" you get with disc based content, force you to buy/use proprietary hardware, don't offer full HD versions, etc. Many times the insult is compounded by a mix of the above. Because of laws like the DMCA, the options available for downloadable video content all have serious compromises. Without having to compete with legal DVD disc rips, the industry offers consumers these less than ideal solutions instead. Sure, bandwidth limitations and disagreements on how to go about it the best way play a role (after all the music industry is still bothering with multiple downloadable DRM formats that don't play well together), but I have to believe that if DVD ripping was legal we'd see better solutions than this by this point.

Vudu certainly does have their work cut out for them. They're asking consumers to shell out money for hardware that apparently can only be used for this service. The other major obstacle is their lack of name recognition. Apple TV, Tivo/Amazon, Microsoft's 360, etc are all well known names. They're also products that serve other purposes and, at least in the case of the 360 and Tivo, is a box consumers may already have. To me it's an uphill battle at least and I'd guess that they don't make it in the long run.

Jeff

How much is the typical cost of a Kaleidescape system (MSRP and typical price to customer by custom installer)?

It's a highly configurable system (i.e. lots of options), so the following should be understood to be a guide only...

The single space server including a move player/reader starts at 10K

The 5 space server including a movie player/reader starts under 20K.

From there the price increases depending on the amount of storage and number of players.

So I guess the single space server just has a smaller hard drive capacity? How much are the individual players?

Yes to the first question. $3500.

Replace a couple of words in your post and it reads exactly like some of the critics of the Apple iPod when it was first launched! :D

Uphill battle it may well be, but not insurmountable.

As for the other comments around whether the current Broadband networks can support this, perhaps not in North America, but in many other parts of the world, Broadband networks are already delivering standard definition broadcast as well as On-Demand TV over Broadband to the masses. Here in Hong Kong theres already just over a million subscribers of SD broadcast and On-Demand TV over Broadband (google PCCW NowTV). Korea and Japan has more than twice those number of subscribers. High Definition On-Demand TV over Broadband is also a reality in Japan today. I expect Verizon/FiOS isn't far off.

Other than with ADSL2 and FTTH, these services are delivered via standard multicast technology. Couple those with specialised peer-to-peer networking software/hardware.... suddenly Vudu doesn't sound so far fetched anymore. :)

Welcome to the real world. :)

While Apple wasn't a known player in the general consumer electronics space pre-iPod, they were certainly a very well known name. Vudu, on the other hand, is completely unknown. I don't think any of us would disagree that Jobs and Co took the iPod wave and used it as a vehicle to change the entire face of the company. But again, they had a HUGE head start over an unknown startup.

Vudu's problem is that they are jumping into a space that already has players which the public is already familiar with. It sounds like their technological implementation offers advantages but will they be able to convey that to consumers? That's a serious question they'll have to answer. Over time, I think we can expect most of the services to offer the same content. So from there, how are you going to differentiate yourself from other players? Amazon, Microsoft, Sony (likely later this year with the PS3), Netflix, etc all have this same challenge but all are operating with a distinct advantage over Vudu. Is it impossible for them to succeed especially given this lower opearting cost via the technology? No, but it won't be an easy road at all. In my mind, their best chance at success would be for the service to be integrated into other hardware manufacturers' boxes rather than trying to go it alone.

The broadband issue is an interesting one. The question becomes whether or not users will see current infrastructure limitations (talking about the US market here) as the real reason behind some of the content inconveniences or not. I remember reading a VC proposal 5 or 6 years ago for a company looking to offer on demand content via broadband. Then, there was a much bigger problem with the lack of broadband penetration. Things are different now but are still a bit behind when it comes to HD demands. FIOS is promising, but the infrastructure build-up is time consuming. Yes, broadband penetration and speed in some other countries is better than what the US has. However Vudu, like so many other providers of this type, will likely start with rights distribution in the US market first so the limitations here are major considerations. To me, downloadable content providers need to be offering services that can work well with what is widely available now, rather than depend on the rollout of higher bandwidth networks. Vudu's technology may very well give them an edge with the bandwidth issue, but we'll have to see if the concept plays out well in real world implementations. By the way, Given how Verizon has been expanding the service offering choices over FIOS, I would not be surprised to see them either expand their OnDemand choices to rival what you might get from any of these other services, or partner with one of them directly. Whoever lands that deal will have an advantage within that subscriber base.

On a personal level, I'm not against any of these services. I want more choices, more competition, and as a result, better products. Ideally, I'd still like the ability to choose for myself via legal rips of my DVDs and HD-DVD/BR discs, but that's another argument. It's just that when I look out across the downloadable landscape, all I see now are compromises. We'll get there eventually, but it's going to take time.

Jeff

Article about managed copy. Too early to say but the tone of this article sounds very good for K.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/132212-1/article.html?tk=nl_dnxnws

Article about managed copy. Too early to say but the tone of this article sounds very good for K.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/132212-1/article.html?tk=nl_dnxnws

Actuall the latest news might not be a good sign for MMC. It seems to me MS finally give up fighting for MMC on blu-ray because it would drag too long to meet FOX's "bar".



Quote

"Time to copy
http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6446750.html

There are indications in the latest reports that a compromise may have been reached on the question, opening the way to a final deal. Managed copy would be mandatory for HD DVD, but optional for Blu-ray studios, which include Fox, the studio that has set the bar highest for approving a managed copy regime.

Another thorny issue has been studios’ insistence on charging consumers for their managed copy.

As envisioned by the studios, consumers would have to contact an online “clearing house” that would authorize a managed copy and keep track of how many are made.

In most cases, that authorization would come at a price.

The latest reports indicate some studios may seek to simplify that process by baking the cost of the managed copy into the retail price of the disc.

For all the hard work that has gone into the negotiations, however, the industry may simply have been digging itself a deeper hole.

That’s because the real enemy is time. The longer it takes to offer consumers what they want, the more time consumers spend figuring out how to get it themselves, as we’ve already seen with the early AACS hacks.

The longer it takes the industry to reach a deal on managed copy, and the more complex it makes the process for consumers, the less value managed copy will have in the marketplace, making any scheme to try charging for it moot.

Let’s hope the reports are right and a deal really is imminent. Because as it stands, the industry is in danger of talking managed copy to death. "

If HD-DVD offers it, don't underestimate the power of competition forcing Blu Ra to offer it. I can tell you this - if HD offers it and Blu Ra doesn't I will NEVER buy another Blu Ra disc.

Blu-ra... is that the one from Sun-ra?

The Imerge MS5000 does 1080p. They also claim it has more expansion drive space than the Kaleidoscape, better audio, an easier to use GUI, and a price half that of the Kaleidoscape.

The Imerge MS5000 does 1080p. They also claim it has more expansion drive space than the Kaleidoscape, better audio, an easier to use GUI, and a price half that of the Kaleidoscape.

The Imerge isn't even in the same realm as the Kaleidescape, the MS5000 only claims to output video to 1 place at a time! There are many other products out there that are far superior (and probably little difference in price) than Imerge.

However, there are no products so far that seem to match the ease and flexiblity for viewing DVDs (at any price range) of the Kscape system.

This merge system is nothing more than a microsoft media center server, possibly running custom extensions or something.

This merge system is nothing more than a microsoft media center server, possibly running custom extensions or something.

Wrong...but an interesting reaction.

The Imerge isn't even in the same realm as the Kaleidescape, the MS5000 only claims to output video to 1 place at a time! There are many other products out there that are far superior (and probably little difference in price) than Imerge.

However, there are no products so far that seem to match the ease and flexiblity for viewing DVDs (at any price range) of the Kscape system.

Wow...you really feel strongly about Kaleidoscape. I agree that these are two different approaches to media servers, but I think your out-of-hand dismissal of the MS5000 may be a little over the top. The Imerge does serve multiple zones with motion video, but not simultaneously. It does do 1080p (the subject of this thread), whereas the Kaleidoscape only does 1080i. The Imerge audio section is designed by a Cambridge England firm that is known for producing pretty nice audio circuits.

For $32,000 Kaleidoscape gives you 400 DVDs and also audio. For $15,000 Imerge gives you 400DVDs and has five zones of really good sounding audio in more formats than does Kal.

I'm sure the Kaleidoscape is a worthy system, but they really haven't had much competition up until recently. They need to get on top of the 1080p detail, they need to get their audio sorted out, and as soon as they get their legal bills paid, they need to reduce their prices. That's all.

I haven't seen it yet in person but I have the spec sheet on it. It has some significant limitations compared to Kaleidescape. It is a single zone video unit only and also does not appear to be able to be expanded beyond the 7 built in hard drives (currently 3 terabytes). I did see someone mention that outboard storage can be added though I don't see that mentioned in the literature. It has a couple of DVI outputs, I see no mention of HDMI. It does not say in the literature if the DVI outputs are HDCP compatible. Hopefully they are.

It has 5 audio zones built in. I believe like other solutions it will require the end user to use some type of DVD copying software and does not include a seamless solution as Kaleidescape does but perhaps someone will correct me if I am wrong. I will have a price sheet on it shortly. The initial price I saw on it is 15K, I think that is fully loaded with hard drives. All in all it's very interesting piece.

For $32,000 Kaleidoscape gives you 400 DVDs and also audio. For $15,000 Imerge gives you 400DVDs and has five zones of really good sounding audio in more formats than does Kal.
That is the comparison Imerge is promoting. As soon as I have a price sheet I will be able to do a real comparison with differing amounts of storage and so forth. The cost of entry to Kaleidescape is now 10K BTW.

Wow...you really feel strongly about Kaleidoscape. I agree that these are two different approaches to media servers, but I think your out-of-hand dismissal of the MS5000 may be a little over the top. The Imerge does serve multiple zones with motion video, but not simultaneously. It does do 1080p (the subject of this thread), whereas the Kaleidoscape only does 1080i. The Imerge audio section is designed by a Cambridge England firm that is known for producing pretty nice audio circuits.



Perhaps I dismissed it too easily, but unless a system has simultaneous multi-room video capabilities, it doesn't really compare to the K-scape system.

In regards to 1080i, I don't think that there would be much of a difference between upscaling DVD's to 1080i or 1080p (if someone were that concerned they would probably get an external video processor anyway). I would assume that getting the Kscape system to do 1080P would be a relatively minor upgrade if they can actually get HD-DVD and Blu-ray compatability.

Wrong...but an interesting reaction.

condescending...but not worth reacting to.

The fact of the matter is this- this merge system does not do what K does. Once again, there is another system out there that is trying to distribute dvd libraries around a multi-zone environment. I do not understand why these systems keep getting brought up in this thread. K has no real competitors right now, unless you are a DIYer with media center and Vista. Those systems can be great, but you still have to setup a separate program to copy the dvds. If you want to do this, grab some vista machines with MCE on them, get anydvd, and get mymovies. You will probably love it and it will work well, and if you are really good, you can rip hd discs and shoot them around the house. But the K is an entirely different product.

If you want to post a machine in this thread that can do the following:

1. Import DVDs legally (that knocked everyone out)

2. Offer a use experience that is as elegant, fast, and smooth that literally a child can use it (see my earlier post as to why my father in law purchased it)

3. Sendup to 25 simultaneous streams of video and or audio to multiple zones, let you stop a movie in one room and start it in another, and offer all of the functionality that K does.

Then go ahead.

As for feeling strongly about the K system, I guess I do. I feel more strongly about the ability to send hidef disks to multiple zones, and with the forthcoming managed copy spec, we will see if it promotes use, or if-more likely- the studios screw it up and downloadable content gains a foot hold in the high quality arena.

But do you know what I feel most strongly about? People posting about the K system and how it will handle hidef discs with hdcp.

Thank you to lymzy and QQQ for posting about the managed copy spec.

Sorry about my rant, but if you want to compare the pros and cons of another system, do it in another thread.

Here is a post that is quite old that confirms that Fox may screw this whole thing up:

http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/HD-DVD-camp-Fox-can-add-proprietary-DRM-to-Blu-ray-discs.html

I don't even care if they add another 5 bucks or so to the cost of the disk. I would just like to have the ability to conveniently make an online copy of the movie so I do not have to get the disk. Unfortunately, K cannot creatively find a way around this time. So the hackers do. These movie studios really amaze me...

Iansilv,

First, it's Imerge, not Merge. And secondly, time will tell if, as you suggest, it is just another also-ran gadfly to the mighty Kaleidoscape, or if it will evolve into a serious competitor. I have a great deal of respect for their audio servers and I know that they have been a major player for many years in the commercial media server business in Europe, so they undoubtedly have some expertise in the field. I've been told that they are developing a network storage system with virtually unlimited capacity. And according to an integrator that's done work in my home and is a great Imerge proponent, Imerge is working on clients for streaming a/v throughout the house and also for ripping HD media to the MS5000. So my sense is that this company promises to be more than a midget in the category. Sorry that my previous terse response landed on you badly.

Iansilv,

First, it's Imerge, not Merge. And secondly, time will tell if, as you suggest, it is just another also-ran gadfly to the mighty Kaleidoscape, or if it will evolve into a serious competitor. I have a great deal of respect for their audio servers and I know that they have been a major player for many years in the commercial media server business in Europe, so they undoubtedly have some expertise in the field. I've been told that they are developing a network storage system with virtually unlimited capacity. And according to an integrator that's done work in my home and is a great Imerge proponent, Imerge is working on clients for streaming a/v throughout the house and also for ripping HD media to the MS5000. So my sense is that this company promises to be more than a midget in the category. Sorry that my previous terse response landed on you badly.


First, it's Kaleidescape, not Kaleidoscape...... ;)

there are lots of competitors to K.

iMerge, Request, Max, Xperinet, and one or two others i cannot recall the names of.

I had to learn about all of them and see demos of them when i was the trainer at K.

And while all of them compare on a spec sheet in one way or another... not one stands up once a side by side comparison happens. Once a dealer has to install one, the differences get even greater and then when you look at the behavior over time (system that calls detailed logs in every few minutes that reports ANYTHING that might be starting to wear out) there is no comparison whatsoever.

I am not saying this to be another person to stand and put K on a pedestal. If anything, i have plenty of potential reasons to have a grudge and (if there was negative stuff to say) to talk crap about them.

But i cannot. Plain and simply, it is the finest HT product ever built. Take a good look, there is nothing in the CE world that can stand with its UI, its build quality and its feature set.

There is one really good reason to buy one of the also rans... Money. that is why i may buy one of them.

When will Kaleidescape -- thanks for the spelling correction -- be able to handle 1080p material?

I guess the current line is this: when managed copy gets approved, then K will introduce new readers and players that will handle the disc ripping and the media playback. The server architecture will remain the same, as far as I understand it.

Kaleidescape currently handles 1080P material. However, Kalediescape cannot handle HD-DVD nor BluRay.

Dennis, I'm not sure what you mean by this---I mean, what you've said is obvious to all of us. The point of this thread is to discuss how it will handle HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray. We all know it cannot do so now.

Are you suggesting that the K system won't be able to handle these formats, even in the future?