Cedar Rapids, IA - HDTV [Text View] - Page 12

dline

02-11-09, 06:31 PM

Meanwhile, in transition news:

An article in Broadcasting & Cable suggests the FCC could get stingy with stations who want to transition on Feb. 17. An aide to acting Chairman Michael Copps suggests the number of stations denied the right to transition on that date could be "anywhere from low double-digits to triple-digits."

The article again suggests that markets would face greater scrutiny if every station, or even every station with a newscast, sought to shut off analog earlier than the new deadline.

Oddly enough, as of the time the article was written, the delay law wasn't even a law yet -- President Obama still hadn't signed it, even as late as this morning.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/174012-FCC_Stations_Not_Allowed_To_Go_All_Digital_Feb_17_Could_Hit_ Triple_Digits.php

EDIT: TV Week's website now says the bill has been signed: http://www.tvweek.com/news/2009/02/dtv_switch_bill_signed_new_dat.php

uhf

02-11-09, 08:46 PM

It seems that some stations have the mistaken belief that they already have permission to shut down analog on the 17th. If I were them, I'd be checking with the lawyers in DC that most stations retain, because everything I've been seeing the past few days indicates that even prior permission is null and void at this point. That's probably why some stations are saying "the risk is too great" to switch early.

tsduke

02-11-09, 10:11 PM

tsduke

02-11-09, 10:36 PM

When will stations in our market have the ability to record shows in HD for shows pre-empted by sports and what not?

uhf

02-11-09, 10:47 PM

Jarret said they just got their approval Monday morning so they should be good.

according to the release I saw today, no stations have been granted final approval yet, regardless of what they were previously told. they may have been approved under the old law, but remember, the new bill wasn't signed by the President until this afternoon.

hdtvincr

02-12-09, 01:47 AM

Have to troubleshoot tomorrow, but Amreican Idol did not record on either Directv DVR or thru MC with a capture card. Coincidence????

East Iowa 01234

02-12-09, 07:06 AM

Like you, I'm in a single story house with a clear view of the north. The RS antenna I have in the attic is around 60" long and the elements spread out a good 48" or so. By having it in the attic I get significantly less signal strength than if I had mounted it outside. Still, I'm able to reliable view all the signals just fine. I'm not too familiar with the CM2016, but it looks like it would be worth trying. With its stated 35 mile range you could be pushing it and it might be worth considering the next size up (can you get it someplace where you can try and return if it doesn't work?). I'd assume with your plans to mount it 5' above the peak you'll have no problems.

The UHF elements on the CM2016 appear to be similar in size to most other antennas. You shouldn't have difficulties pulling in 2's digital signal or any other signal from this market. Channel 2, 9 and 32 (IPTV) all originate from the same tower near Walker Iowa. Channel 7's tower is a bit further north. Channel 28 (Fox) is closer to Vinton.

About a year ago I helped a friend pull in the digital OTA signals from her condo south of Coralridge. She had tried 3-4 set-top style antennas and was only able to pull in the West Branch signals and Fox of all things (seems to be a common theme among those trying to get the digital signals via rabbit ears in Iowa City). Her place sat down in a "hole", but I was still able to get all the signals by placing my small UHF Yagi antenna up in the attic of the 2 story condo and pointing it North-NW (again I don't recomend a UHF only antenna now with 7,9 and 12 going back to VHF). My point is, with a little effort its quite possible to reliably receive the digital signals.

Keep in mind that if you have any thoughts about throwing a rotor on the antenna and swinging it to the SE to try to get the Quad Cities Stations or to the West to try to get Des Moines/Ames you'll want a bigger antenna. I tried to get the QC stations 4 years ago by mounting the small UHF Yagi in my attic facing that direction with no luck. The fact that I'm receiving the Quad Cities CW off the back side of my antenna gives me new hope that I may be able to pull in more signals from other markets...

Good luck!
DLPda

Walmart has a Phillips 100 mile VHF 60 mile UHF outdoor antenna for around $75 which is pretty close to a 60 " boom

I live east of Cedar Rapids at 950 ft above sea level on a knob with no obstructions in any direction. An antenna that I bought 7 yrs ago from Best Buy which is very similar to the Phillips 100 mile. That antenna is mounted at 25-30 ft above ground on top of my house with a rotor.

All CR/Waterloo stations clear as a bell DT OTA and I can watch analog ok. With my antenna pointed at the Benton Co towers, I get 4 WHBF-DT (better than KGAN), 6 KWQC-DT and 18 KLJB-TV (not DT) clear as a bell of the back side. I can get them all if I turn the rotor. I have to be spot on to get 8 WQAD.

The Phillips is a bit better construction than the RS ones. I had the best one that RS made..............and the wind at my location tore it to shreds after about 4 yrs.. I lost two elements (back two) off my new antenna shortly after putting it up and have not had any problems with it after I put some good coax leads down.

you guys in N Lliberty should have similar results if you put the rig on top of your roof. I know its a hassel but it is worth it for reception.

As I noted before I put a set of the good RS rabbit ears on my brother in laws TV' north of New Hampton and can get 2, 7, 9, 28 clear. They are amplified.

tsduke

02-12-09, 08:29 AM

Current list of stations switching early. Sounds like the FCC is reviewing and may stop some from switching.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-221A3.pdf

tvguy01

02-12-09, 09:04 AM

FCC Rejects 25% of TV Stations' Early DTV-Switch Applications

By Ira Teinowitz

The Federal Communications Commission late Wednesday rejected, at least temporarily, a quarter of the requests from the 491 TV stations that had asked to switch to digital-only signals on Feb. 17.
The action blocked switches of major stations in Dayton, Ohio; Eugene, Ore.; Billings, Mont.; Lincoln, Neb.; Madison, Wis.; Providence, R.I.; Rockford, Ill.; LaCrosse, Wis.; Charleston, W.Va.; Santa Barbara, Calif.; Sioux City, Iowa; Topeka, Kan.; Wausau, Wis. and Wichita, Kan., among other locations.

iowahawkeye

02-12-09, 10:39 AM

CR_Client

02-12-09, 10:42 AM

When will stations in our market have the ability to record shows in HD for shows pre-empted by sports and what not?

The last time this question was asked, I think I jokingly responded "about 10 years after never" or something similar, but was never actually corrected or told I was wrong.

The cash flow of local stations in our market is nowhere near high enough to pay for the equipment needed to perform such an act. It was always my hope that sub-channels would allow them to broadcast such sporting events on alternate frequencies, but I have been told time and again that the market for such sporting events is larger than the market for network programming, so network programming will always take a back seat.

I think it's total bunk, but that's just me.

I appreciated when KCRG broadcast an Iowa game on 9.1 and an Iowa State game on 9.2 recently. That took guts, and is exactly the kind of thing I hoped sub-channels would allow.

Of course, it doesn't help that neither of the $inclair-housed stations do ANYTHING with their sub-channel, other than mirror their primary channel.

edit: I would also add that such an ability would also allow stations to broadcast syndicated shows in HD, which would be nice, too. Not that I care whether or not Regis & Kelly are in HD, but there are gobs of syndicated shows that are available in HD that we miss out on here in the CR market (Star Trak: TOS comes readily to mind).

mred53

02-12-09, 11:16 AM

FCC: 123 Stations Pose 'Significant' Risk If They End Analog Feb. 17

The Federal Communications Commission said the Feb. 17 analog-shutoff plans of 123 TV stations present a "significant risk of substantial public harm," and is requiring those stations to certify they meet additional requirements before they may go all-digital next week.

http://www.multichannel.com/article/174057-FCC_123_Stations_Pose_Significant_Risk_If_They_End_Analog_Fe b_17.php

This article contains a link to the list of stations considered "risky", which does not include any CR market stations: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-09-7A2.pdf

I take this to mean that the stations here that are planning to shut off analog next week will likely be able to proceed as planned.

tvguy01

02-12-09, 11:38 AM

QUOTE: "When will stations in our market have the ability to record shows in HD for shows pre-empted by sports and what not?"
QUOTE: "...an ability to allow stations to broadcast syndicated shows in HD would be nice, too."

The big ($$$) limiting factor for locally delaying network programming and/or airing of the syndicated HD stuff is an HD-capable video-server or HD-capable broadcast-standard video tape recorder/player, neither of which are cheap!
To say nothing of the ancillary (HD capable) electronics required to interface either of these devices to the existing broadcast equipment chain.

(No longer can a station use a generic TiVo for this task.)

Equipment prices are coming down all the time, but I suspect it will be quite a while before any of the cash-strapped locals can spring for this stuff.

(Look how long it took to get HD-capable text crawls implemented locally...not the fault of the stations themselves, but rather the great costs involved in doing this)

CR_Client

02-12-09, 12:15 PM

QUOTE: "When will stations in our market have the ability to record shows in HD for shows pre-empted by sports and what not?"
QUOTE: "...an ability to allow stations to broadcast syndicated shows in HD would be nice, too."

I would appreciate you not mis-quoting me, especially since the forum has a "quote" and "multi-quote" button. I did NOT say what you quoted me as saying. I said that time-shift HD technology in local stations would also mean that locals could broadcast HD syndicated shows, as those are basically time-shifted broadcasts, too.

The big ($$$) limiting factor for locally delaying network programming and/or airing of the syndicated HD stuff is an HD-capable video-server or HD-capable broadcast-standard video tape recorder/player, neither of which are cheap!
To say nothing of the ancillary (HD capable) electronics required to interface either of these devices to the existing broadcast equipment chain.

(No longer can a station use a generic TiVo for this task.)

Equipment prices are coming down all the time, but I suspect it will be quite a while before any of the cash-strapped locals can spring for this stuff.

(Look how long it took to get HD-capable text crawls implemented locally...not the fault of the stations themselves, but rather the great costs involved in doing this)

Which is exactly what I already said. What's your point?

dline

02-12-09, 01:02 PM

This article contains a link to the list of stations considered "risky", which does not include any CR market stations: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-09-7A2.pdf

I take this to mean that the stations here that are planning to shut off analog next week will likely be able to proceed as planned.From the FCC's notice:

"Any station that was listed in Appendix A to the February 17, 2009 Termination List Public Notice, DA 09-221, and is not listed in the Appendix to this PN, is expected to proceed with termination of its analog service on that date, subject to the conditions previously described in the February 5th Public Notice."

Translation: it looks like KWWL, KWKB, KFXA and KGAN are good to go. In a roundabout way, KCRG may have saved the day for them -- literally -- by agreeing to keep their analog on.

One potential rub could be the Wausau, WI market. Their stations are on the list released today. As I recall, KWWL needs parts from its Wausau station's transmitter in order to go to its final full power on Channel 7, according to their transition reports with the FCC. So will we be waiting another four months for that?

Jon Ellis

02-12-09, 01:11 PM

Only if WAOW is the station that stays on. Just one of the stations staying on will suffice, but the market's other three stations also have reasons they might not want to stay on (one is also flash-cutting, one has no digital companion channel, and one is a rimshot).

4lids

02-12-09, 01:27 PM

We are still a go for 2/17/2009. We were granted our STA on Tuesday and nothing has changed since then for this market. I think a large reason for that is the fact that KCRG and the public TV stations are staying on the air. Many of our other stations were impacted though with this latest roadblock. At those stations, we have the ability to reapply by tomorrow if they satisfy a bunch of requirements. We'll see how that plays out... what a mess!

As far as the rebroadcast of other HD programming (NBC or syndicated if available), we are in no position here. We have had plans put together the past couple years about rebuilding our technical infrastructure, but with about a million dollar price tag and the state of business right now, our plans are on hold. We still hope to get this train moving, but we need advertisers to come back to us eventually!

khasha

02-12-09, 01:29 PM

Make sure you use a grounding block before entering the house and ground it to the house
service panel or the outside ground rod.

tsduke

02-12-09, 09:18 PM

Jarret,

What's the deal with KWWL-HD tonight?

bassdog65

02-12-09, 09:26 PM

KWWL video is flashing on both Mediacom HD feed not through a cable box and Dish SD feed during The Office. It's pretty terrible.

tsduke

02-12-09, 09:29 PM

KWWL video is flashing on both Mediacom HD feed not through a cable box and Dish SD feed during The Office. It's pretty terrible.

Earl was bad. Audio was in and out to and video not in hd for most of it.

flyingvee

02-12-09, 09:36 PM

Earl was bad, and Office was unwatchable.

WTH, Jarrett? (or KWWL!) you've been running your DTV cutoff crawl all nite, yet I had to switch to the analog feed to watch THE OFFICE.

Won't be able to do that next Thursday (and if you go WAY back, this isn't the first time I've had to watch KWWL on analog.) Should we automatically assume that next week your DT signal will be something we can count on?

Hope so - kinda a shame, NBC only has one night of programming I watch, and they can't even broadcast on Thursday.

If this is the best ya got, I vote for leaving analog on, so we have something to watch.

oldsyd

02-12-09, 09:58 PM

Can someone answer this?

If KCRG filed to suspend analog on 1/29, and it was granted on 02/09/2009,
what was the "risk" KCRG mentioned about shutting off the analog signal?

Am I missing something here?

As far as I can tell, KWWL is in the same boat with moving from UHF to VHF on 2/17, right?

Please educate me, I can't figure out the risk there. And why was the risk discovered only this week after permission to cease analog was granted?

MORE BREAKING NEWS:
KCRG notifies FCC of intent to shut off analog on Feb. 17

KCRG has filed a "Notice of Suspension of Operations," which can be found here (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1292299&Form_id=910&Facility_id=9719). Here's what they have to say on their form:

"To assist KCRG-TV's digital transition, given the uncertainty surrounding the date of the digital transition deadline, and to accommodate the notice requirement ... Station KCRG-TV hereby notifies the Commission that, on February 17, 2009, it intends to permanently terminate analog (ch. 9) and pre-transition digital (ch. 52) operations, whereupon it will immediately commence operations with its post-transition digital (ch. 9) facilities authorized ..."

"In light of the uncertainties noted above, and to comply with the spirit of the Commission's existing DTV transition procedures, Station KCRG-TV will broadcast the type of viewer notifications described in Paragraph 134 of the Report and Order until it terminates analog operations on February 17, 2009."

KCRG joins KWWL and KGAN among Eastern Iowa stations seeking to shut down analog on the original deadline.

CR_Client

02-12-09, 11:32 PM

Can someone answer this?

If KCRG filed to suspend analog on 1/29, and it was granted on 02/09/2009,
what was the "risk" KCRG mentioned about shutting off the analog signal?

Am I missing something here?

As far as I can tell, KWWL is in the same boat with moving from UHF to VHF on 2/17, right?

Please educate me, I can't figure out the risk there. And why was the risk discovered only this week after permission to cease analog was granted?

Because the FCC changed the rules after the right to suspend was granted.

The risk is in the form of some seriously steep fines by the FCC, on a daily basis, for breaking the rules.

It's almost like playing "Calvinball" with the FCC any more. They seem to enjoy changing the rules any given moment.

There are other extenuating circumstances surrounding KCRG's decision, from what I understand, but what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.

Suffice it to say that KCRG's decision is probably one of the only reasons that the other locals will be able to terminate analog, based on the recent FCC ruling regarding "all major stations in a market." I think KWWL, KGAN, and KFXA should thank their stars that KCRG chickened out. I bet they'd even be willing to help KCRG pay their analog electric bill since they sorta took a bullet for them. :rolleyes: Or not...

CR_Client

02-13-09, 01:57 AM

Jarret-

Not to pick on you, but you're one of the few local engineers who openly posts on here, so you're kind of the mule that gets beaten when the need arises.

I know that we've discussed the cost of equipment to record and re-broadcast HD material, etc, but whither the equipment to normalize the volume of TV commercials on national broadcasts?

I understand that certain stations choose to amplify their commercials to get the attention of the viewing audience, etc, but KWWL's late night programming (and, occasionally, primetime programming) is the WORST offender of this sort of thing locally. It's bad enough that I'm thinking about finally picking up an SPL meter to actually quantify how severely the commercials are boosted above the normal programming. From looking at the display on my receiver, I have to drop from -20dB to -30dB during the commercials just to get the sense that I'm not going to cause permanent hearing loss. Obviously an SPL meter would be much more accurate than that, but it's a pretty significant volume change.

Is this an issue of "we could do it if we had the uber-expensive equipment to do it", a matter of "we have absolutely no control over it", or "we could do something about it, but, frankly, the network would prefer we not", or "that's Master Control's job... oops..."?

Again, not to pick on you specifically, but KWWL is what ends up on my TV after 11:30 PM, and I'm constantly fighting the volume control on my receiver to keep myself able to hear the programming and keep my speakers from blowing out during commercials. And, like I said, you're just crazy enough to openly post here as a local engineer.

dline

02-13-09, 04:26 AM

Can someone answer this?

If KCRG filed to suspend analog on 1/29, and it was granted on 02/09/2009,
what was the "risk" KCRG mentioned about shutting off the analog signal?

Am I missing something here?

As far as I can tell, KWWL is in the same boat with moving from UHF to VHF on 2/17, right?

Please educate me, I can't figure out the risk there. And why was the risk discovered only this week after permission to cease analog was granted?I don't think anything was ever "granted" until today. The stations merely gave notice that they were seeking to shut down their analog on time. Nobody knew for sure this delay was going to pass or what form the final bill was going to take, so there were no rules for it. There didn't even appear to be any agreement on what form to file -- some stations filed STAs, others filed a "notice of suspension of operations."

The commission may have a lot of power, but their rules do have to have some grounding in the laws Congress passes. Clearly, the way they read the bill, the commissioners believed that Congress wanted some flexibility for stations, but they also wanted some analog to stay on the air to give viewers more time to adjust. So after the bill passed both houses, they came up with brand new rules and forced everyone wanting to shut down early to file a new form by 2/9, but the rules made it clear that filing by 2/9 doesn't necessarily mean approval for a 2/17 cutoff.

tsduke

02-13-09, 08:41 AM

normalize the volume of TV commercials on national broadcasts

The volume variation from the show to comercials was all over the place on KWWL last night.

oldsyd

02-13-09, 09:14 AM

Thanks for the replies (re: FCC/KCRG)

Maybe I can shed some light on the commercial volume problem.

I think you will find that the reason commercials are louder is not
necessarily due to peak volume changing, but it is due to the crazy
compression advertisers use in the audio to increase loudness.

This really came to light in 2008 when fans of the metal band
Metallica hated the artifacts from over compression in their
new album Death Magnetic, only to discover a better quality
version in the game Guitar Hero. :confused:

http://blog.wired.com/music/2008/09/does-metallicas.html

Since most TV stations strive for 0db peak monitoring, correction
for this unnecessary loudness would be better applied as an end
user solution.

Even better, this loudness has in the past been used as a trigger
for commercial skipping technology. I've seen it work on certain
VCR's, and it worked almost perfectly. Obviously, manufacturers
are "persuaded" against using this loudness flag to skip commercials.

ivorygate

02-13-09, 10:39 AM

Anyone know anything about KWKB? Will folks living in the Waterloo/Cedar Falls area finally be able to get their HD broadcast OTA next week?

flyingvee

02-13-09, 11:06 AM

oldsyd - while I'm sure compression is involved in sd broadcasts, and explains what you're talking about, I'm pretty sure the other thing is a completely different situation.

as far as I can tell (just by observation) - it appears to be a mismatch between the digital audio feed from networks, on HD shows, and the locally produced analog commercials..

if you need an example - just do what I was doing last nite - switch from KWWL-DT during an HD show to the same thing on analog 7. (do it quick - they're changing, I hear) When I was going from Office D to Office A, the analog broadcast was at least 12db louder. Which is pretty much what we're hearing when KWWL cuts from hd feed to their own commercials.

Fix it eventually; but first, lets try'n get the digital feed so it will broadcast a picture with sound for an entire evening....

4lids

02-13-09, 11:40 AM

KWWL has been having a lot of fun with a couple pieces of gear these past couple weeks. We need to reroute some things in order to prepare for 2/17 in our control room and how we monitor things, and a couple new problems surfaced. We also just underwent our NBC skypath upgrade which changed out all of our NBC downlink gear.

Here are the issues that we are aware of and working to fix (some of which you saw last night... which acted up in a bad way):

-Transitions between HD and local upconverted HD, which weren't clean. We finally got a switcher from another station a few weeks ago, but it could only switch the video cleanly. The embedded audio was not clean and resulted in that second or two of dead air for audio after every transition. We have been battling this for as long as I have been here and just yesterday, we finally got a clean and quiet switch that can handle HD and embedded 5.1 audio. We installed it last night hoping that it would solve this issue finally, but there is still something not right. We have a call into Leitch to help us solve the issue.

-Related to this, we think, is a lip sync issue with Dish and DirecTV customers. It is pretty close right now with our over the air broadcasts, but terrible on them. I think it is their gear causing the troubles, but our dirty audio switch may be freaking something out over there. Once this panacea switch is fully installed, I'll know for sure that it isn't us!

-Commercial audio volume... and differences between local upconvert volume and HD volume. This one is the most frustrating, since I hearing wild stories out there, and we are hearing nothing close to that hear. Right now, I'm watching the today show, and the volumes are drifting a little... and that is just with NBC to NBC commercials. I think it may have something to do with 5.1 to stereo commercials. NBC is aware of these issues and claims they are working on better balancing those. The upconverted stuff seems to be pretty close, but I will have another compressor in next week to further smooth things out on that side. I ended up needing my current one to help balance and mix down the 5.1 for our downconverted cable feeds and in house monitoring. I'll let you know if I find something out.

-The last issue was a new one yesterday where our downconverter (which passes through the HD stream out to everyone), freaked out. It was like it lost reference or genlock for some reason. We simply cycled the reference source in the menu and it stabilized everything. We showed the op how to take care of it if it happened again.

Once again, I'm sorry for the bumps these past couple weeks... believe me, it bothers us more than you! Our goal is to get everything streamlined back here and stable so that we are much more consistant and solid down the road with our quality.
-Jarrett

Jon Ellis

02-13-09, 11:49 AM

Anyone know anything about KWKB? Will folks living in the Waterloo/Cedar Falls area finally be able to get their HD broadcast OTA next week?

No, even at maximum power of 1,000kW, Waterloo is still outside of KWKB's projected coverage area since they transmit from West Branch:

http://www.fcc.gov/ftp/Bureaus/MB/Databases/fm_tv_service_areas/maps/DT1174463.jpg

This location gives them nice coverage of the Quad Cities but no coverage of Waterloo. (But the Quad Cities has its own CW affiliate.)

You might be able to pick it up with a large rooftop antenna, but there are no guarantees. Fortunately, if you have a rooftop antenna in Waterloo pointed in the direction of KGAN, KWWL, KCRG, and KRIN, it's also (kind of) in the right direction for KWKB.

RBenson

02-13-09, 12:00 PM

For the last two nights, I have no audio on KWWL 7-1 on my Dish network 622 DVR on the Tonight Show. Commercials have audio but when it switches back to Leno there is nothing. Does this have something to do with the work you are doing?

gjvrieze

02-13-09, 12:02 PM

flyingvee

02-13-09, 12:34 PM

Thanks Jarrett....appreciate headsup, when we know you have better things to do. (really, I do know that ;) )

Had no problems with Leno audio last night - getting your signal via CFU. Even recorded Dierks on DVR Wednesday night - sony DHG500 - looked, sounded fine.

Agree with the genlock issue - looked like the signal wasn't synching on my end, scared me for a minute, but all other stations were fine, so figured it was on your end.

Still hope things become stable by the time we no longer have 7.0 to fall back on. ;)

RBenson

02-13-09, 01:25 PM

It must be something with the network signal and Dish Network because the Tonight show recorded and played back the next day had absolutely no audio until the commercials came on. Nothing has changed in my setup and programs recorded on other channels worked fine. I will check tonight and see if there is audio live.

4lids

02-13-09, 04:24 PM

Hey, you are great to taking time to post this info, in Rochester, the KTTC engineer does not seem to get back to anyone on the issues that they have....

Tim has been plagued by some major transmitter issues of late, and I'm just probably a little more active on these forums than he is, since all of you are quite helpful to me as an extra set of eyes and ears!

Quite update on KWWL issues:
I played with the lip sync some more today (It can drive you made just staring at it and trying to figure out which way to go!). I think everything is leaving here perfect now. We also, I think, figured out or new switcher, so hopefully tonight, we'll have some clean audio switches. I'm hoping that Dish and DirecTV correct their issues with lip sync, since it still appears a bit off on them.

The big remaining issue is the loudness factor. We have no way to measure it here without a $3000 piece of gear (Dolby LM-100... If you have one to loan me, let me know ;) ). I will play with some things more on next week. I'm also expecting a compressor next Wednesday that will help the cause for our local stuff.

I appreciate your patience and let me know if you notice anything specific that is out of whack.

-Jarrett

flyingvee

02-13-09, 04:52 PM

I don't have a Dolby box, tho I have a number of stereo compressors...:)

will watch the lip-synch; I'd been noticing it on your local news. will letcha know how it looks thru CFU. (don't have antenna for OTA anymore - using it to pickup TVGOS data, for dvr)

will also pay more attention to relative volume levels, so can provide exact times and details.

East Iowa 01234

02-13-09, 05:22 PM

Tim has been plagued by some major transmitter issues of late, and I'm just probably a little more active on these forums than he is, since all of you are quite helpful to me as an extra set of eyes and ears!

Quite update on KWWL issues:
I played with the lip sync some more today (It can drive you made just staring at it and trying to figure out which way to go!). I think everything is leaving here perfect now. We also, I think, figured out or new switcher, so hopefully tonight, we'll have some clean audio switches. I'm hoping that Dish and DirecTV correct their issues with lip sync, since it still appears a bit off on them.

-Jarrett

4:16 pm watching 7.1 OTA................sync looks real close........7.3 is off a bit more.(Kojack)

4lids

02-13-09, 09:19 PM

4:16 pm watching 7.1 OTA................sync looks real close........7.3 is off a bit more.(Kojack)

Off-air should be perfect or very close (as close as I could ascertain while staring at it cross-eyed for thirty minutes). The satellite providers were bad though tonight again. I called both of them and they acknowleged the issue (way off on SD!) and finally DirecTV went to the backup (feeds both for SD). The backup is on, according to them, and they will reset the primary gear in the maintenance window later tonight. Let me know if you see or hear issues. Thanks!
-Jarrett

gjvrieze

02-13-09, 09:48 PM

Tim has been plagued by some major transmitter issues of late, and I'm just probably a little more active on these forums than he is, since all of you are quite helpful to me as an extra set of eyes and ears!

Emmm, do you have any "inside" info on what is happening over there?

Off-air should be perfect or very close (as close as I could ascertain while staring at it cross-eyed for thirty minutes). The satellite providers were bad though tonight again. I called both of them and they acknowleged the issue (way off on SD!) and finally DirecTV went to the backup (feeds both for SD). The backup is on, according to them, and they will reset the primary gear in the maintenance window later tonight. Let me know if you see or hear issues. Thanks!
-Jarrett

I am curious:
How do you monitor all the feeds, in particular the Dish and Direct TV feeds?

uhf

02-13-09, 10:22 PM

I am curious:
How do you monitor all the feeds, in particular the Dish and Direct TV feeds?

I don't know about Jarret, but I monitor our feeds on Dish and DirecTV by watching them on Dish and DirecTV. :D

gjvrieze

02-13-09, 10:41 PM

I don't know about Jarret, but I monitor our feeds on Dish and DirecTV by watching them on Dish and DirecTV. :D

LOL:) that much I figured, I was curious about the fact that Jarrett posted at 8ish PM, is he still at work, or do you guys have both installed at home as well....?

4lids

02-13-09, 10:51 PM

LOL:) that much I figured, I was curious about the fact that Jarrett posted at 8ish PM, is he still at work, or do you guys have both installed at home as well....?

We have feeds at the station, but they are usually just visual (audio turned down). As soon as I heard we were getting calls tonight, I placed calls to Dish and DirecTV ops. I'm at the station now and checking through things... everything looks and sounds good. Just waiting on my second compressor now to handle our local spots. That will be in on Wednesday, provided the tracking is accurate.

As far as KTTC, I'm not sure where Tim stands on his rigs right now. I do now that he grabbed my spectrum analyzer and sideband adaptor as he tries to squeeze these last fews days out of his analog. Not sure what else is going on up there.

flyingvee

02-13-09, 11:08 PM

Jarrett - fwiw, your 10pm news is still a bit out of synch. Actually, Tara is quite a bit out of synch. CFU ->Sony dvr ->Vizio panel. no external processors, in the past, same setup has been dead on...

flyingvee

02-13-09, 11:21 PM

The things I do....K - antenna, into Sony DVR; watching 7.1 OTA. Jeff and Ron still outta synch. looks like video is behind audio (?) -is that even possible? as you say, hard to tell; appears to be a touch worse via cable/CFU than ota.

making me wonder if the cablecard/qam tuner in my dvr somehow has a touch more processing time... but Jeff is still off when OTA..

Jarrett - do you have the synch clip to play with? Forget which local got confused, and sent it out OTA, but it was a network provided clip )feed?) - showed wood blocks clapping and a newscaster who enunciated plainly.

n0cf (Chris)

02-14-09, 12:26 AM

No, even at maximum power of 1,000kW, Waterloo is still outside of KWKB's projected coverage area since they transmit from West Branch:.

I hadn't checked 20.1 (25) in a while - but checked earlier this week and found that at 40' off the ground my unamplified VHFLo/High/UHF RatShack antenna locks on quite well... I've never had anything viewable/tolerable from analog 20. (Nor does anyone else in Cedar Falls: note the stacked beams on a 70 foot utility pole that CF Utilities uses to pickup 20 from the Cedar Heights watertower - and that hasn't always been rock-solid over the years).

Still much easier to grab KWCI 23.1 in West Black Hawk County if you watch CW programming :-)

I see CFU has changed their web page and isn't going to swap KWKB for KWCI as they posted earlier this week when 20 analog was off the air... evidently CFU doesn't have a ATSC tuner for KWKB as of yet...

RBenson

02-14-09, 12:09 PM

Had audio on DN recorded Leno show last night. Have no idea why not the 2 nights before.

dline

02-14-09, 03:32 PM

Update: If KWWL still needs parts from WAOW's transmitter in Wausau to go full-power DT on channel 7, as it has told the FCC in the past, it appears that obstacle is clearing. WAOW has been given the go-ahead to shut off its analog -- after showing that its post-transition digital service will be better than its analog, that other stations will continue to provide news in analog, and that WAOW will let an analog public TV station air its local news with commercials deleted.

One potential rub could be the Wausau, WI market. Their stations are on the list released today. As I recall, KWWL needs parts from its Wausau station's transmitter in order to go to its final full power on Channel 7, according to their transition reports with the FCC. So will we be waiting another four months for that?

CR_Client

02-14-09, 10:58 PM

Commercials tonight have been a bit better, but the main programming of the various Law & Order variants has sounded like Metallica's Death Magnetic album, boosted to distortion and then retransmitted... It's rather loud on my receiver at -30 dB, and sounds like it was clipping pretty badly before it was retransmitted... Local commercials seem almost a little bit quiet by comparison, and don't sound like they were clipping at any time. Network commercials are just as loud and clipped as network programming.

KirkTV

02-15-09, 12:53 AM

diggerg56

02-15-09, 11:44 AM

...Still wishing KCRG was on Directv in HD. I absolutely cannot get an OTA signal lock on KCRG in SW Iowa City.

KirkTV

02-15-09, 04:55 PM

...Still wishing KCRG was on Directv in HD. I absolutely cannot get an OTA signal lock on KCRG in SW Iowa City.

I was optomistic that it was going to happen a few weeks ago but things have been quiet on the DirecTV side again unfortunately. We would love to see it get resolved, it's been a long uphill battle. I'm suprised that you are having an issue receiving KCRG from the Iowa City area, we usually have very good results from that area. Are you using a roof top or attic antenna currently?

Kirk

diggerg56

02-15-09, 05:17 PM

I'm using an attic antenna and I really don't want an antenna on the roof. The Directv dishes are pole mounted in back of the house so they don't show either. My choice I know as far as not wanting the roof antenna.
We're well below (south) of Benton street which is much higher terrain than where I live which I suspect may play a part in the reception problem.

I'll keep dealing with SD until it's (hopefully) resolved someday.

iowahawkeye

02-16-09, 07:16 AM

Kelud

02-16-09, 10:09 AM

May all you broadcast engineers that are "moving forward" have a smoth day tomorrow. :)

Hopefully you won't have the problem Mediacom has had for the past 12 or so hours, which is both ESPN & ESPN2 in CR & IC are DEAD BLACK.......nothing, no pic.....no sound. :(

This is a frustrating problem, and it happens too often with Mediacom. It's usually far more than two channels.

gjvrieze

02-16-09, 10:40 AM

May all you broadcast engineers that are "moving forward" have a smoth day tomorrow. :)

1+ agreed, for me, I wish luck to WEAU today (and for me to get the digital!)

TheFoxMan

02-16-09, 10:51 AM

4lids

02-16-09, 12:43 PM

UHF/Jarrett...
When you say you're monitoring Dish local HD, are you talking about Cedar Rapids or another area? I understand they're supposed to be available Feb 18 but am wondering if they're already providing them and on what channel. (Sorry if this was clarified in an earlier post.)

We're not monitoring the HD for Dish... just DirecTV. We have a standard feed for Dish in our control room though. Lip Sync looks pretty good on these two today. We'll see if that sticks!
-Jarrett

VintonShellsburg

02-16-09, 07:10 PM

I'm almost hesitant to post this and add to any potential stress you guys may be facing with tomorrow's impending switch...but I'm having a little trouble with KWWL-DT OTA this evening. The picture and audio are coming in fine, but the closed captioning is rather garbled (I am hard of hearing, so I use CC a lot). It's dropping about 25% of characters randomly, causing words to become truncated and run together. It started during NBC Nightly News and has continued into the 6PM broadcast. I'm using the CC decoder built into my TV (Standard analog, ~2001), and watching KWWL-DT using a Magnavox DVD recorder w/ATSC tuner. CC on other channels is working fine.

EDIT: One commercial break later, and now it's fixed. Sorry, you can ignore this! :o

uhf

02-16-09, 08:46 PM

UHF/Jarrett...
When you say you're monitoring Dish local HD

Sorry, I meant that I'm monitoring the SD feeds on satellite. I have no information on C.R. HD locals on Dish other than what I've seen over on Satelliteguys.us

scott72

02-16-09, 09:39 PM

...Still wishing KCRG was on Directv in HD. I absolutely cannot get an OTA signal lock on KCRG in SW Iowa City.

It appears that KCRG has finally reached a retrans agreement with D*.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=151349

iowahawkeye

02-17-09, 09:47 AM

It appears that KCRG has finally reached a retrans agreement with D*.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=151349

Good find.
Direct link: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2001797#post2001797

oldsyd

02-17-09, 01:38 PM

So, what order do you think KWWL will shut off the transmitters?

I'm guessing 7 analog will shutoff, then 55 digital so they can move the
coax from the 7 digital to the tower line?

sgarringer

02-17-09, 01:55 PM

So, what order do you think KWWL will shut off the transmitters?

I'm guessing 7 analog will shutoff, then 55 digital so they can move the
coax from the 7 digital to the tower line?

I don't know if I am the only one watching, I can't find anything with an NTSC tuner to check out analog 7!

sgarringer

02-17-09, 02:01 PM

Well, they showed the "switch press" on the old Analog transmitter, I saw the very beginning of Deal or No Deal, and UHF channel 7 went off the air.

CR_Client

02-17-09, 02:19 PM

Came home a few minutes ago from running some errands and turned on both TVs to see what the current situation was. Analog 7 was off the air, as expected, but couldn't find 7 digital on either TV. As an aside, 9 Analog looks very odd right now OTA, but that's probably unrelated.

I'm sure Jarret will have it all back up and running by Primetime. For his own sake and KWWL's sake. Hopefully before that, actually. I wouldn't want to be the one fielding all of the calls from the old people that can't watch "Wheel" tonight...

dline

02-17-09, 02:33 PM

Chris Carter said they could be off the air for up to an hour, so hopefully they'll be back up well before then.

That was quite a montage they ran at the end of the newscast -- it was like KWWL's analog life flashing before your eyes, with a countdown clock in the corner. (I hope they put it on the web or replay it tonight for those who missed it.)

I'm sure Jarret will have it all back up and running by Primetime. For his own sake and KWWL's sake. Hopefully before that, actually. I wouldn't want to be the one fielding all of the calls from the old people that can't watch "Wheel" tonight...

oldsyd

02-17-09, 02:34 PM

Yep they shut off analog 7 live (very cool showing what really happens) and then about 10 seconds later digital 55 was shut off.

The station manager said in the noon news that shutting off the UHF transmitter will save them about $5,000 a month.

As far as I'm concerned, KWWL handled this perfectly:

1. Stuck to the original cutoff date.

2. Informed viewers and provided contact info.

3. Showcased it as an event rather than a problem today using
retrospective packages.

4. Actually let the engineer explain things since they are the ones
who are actually doing the work, and know what is happening.

5. Showed the actual shutoff live. That was cool. Thank goodness there
wasn't some goofball throwing a big red plastic lever at 1pm!

The only complaints I have are common with all TV stations:

a) Reporters who have no idea what they are talking about.

b) Reporters referring to the "conversion" when it should be called
"analog shutoff". Using conversion makes people think there is no
benefit to going digital until it is "converted", when in reality, it has
already been converted.

Good luck, Jarrett! Don't get zapped!

pdx77

02-17-09, 02:51 PM

That was great, was watching it on Mediacom as I can't pick up KWWL OTA from where I am in downtown Cedar Rapids.

I'll give two big thumbs up to KWWL and the way they handled the entire event, plus doing it right after the local news was good to as they were able to talk about it before it happend.

I'll also give them another thumbs up for the way they were informing the public on their website, and right at 1pm the website changed to state we are now digital, if you goto KGAN's website they have hardly any information about it.

and Jarrett, perhaps you should become a part time reporter :) Thanks for the updates during the newscast.

dline

02-17-09, 02:53 PM

The only complaints I have are common with all TV stations:

a) Reporters who have no idea what they are talking about.

b) Reporters referring to the "conversion" when it should be called
"analog shutoff". Using conversion makes people think there is no
benefit to going digital until it is "converted", when in reality, it has
already been converted.

Good luck, Jarrett! Don't get zapped!That "b" part may have been one of the bigger failings of this whole "transition."

The transition started (in this market, anyway) in 2002 when stations started broadcasting in digital. I know some stations have run promos saying that ABC-HD is "now available on channel 52", or that The Tube (now defunct) can be seen on 7-3, but I don't think enough was made of the fact that you could enjoy DT before the mandatory cutover.

In reality, the date -- now June 12 -- is not the transition. It is the end of the transition.

oldsyd

02-17-09, 02:56 PM

KWWL-DT Digital 7 (real 7 not 55 channel 7) is up!

sgarringer

02-17-09, 03:08 PM

KWWL-DT Digital 7 (real 7 not 55 channel 7) is up!

Argh! Thats what I was afraid of. I'm getting a signal but its entirely too pixelated to watch. This is off an antenna thats up 40 feet in the air. Granted its a UHF only antenna, but I figured it would work 'well enough'. Guess not. No way I'm climbing that tower for at least a month or so until it warms up. Lets hope Dish gets our locals in HD tomorrow...

dline

02-17-09, 03:12 PM

I'm getting a whiff of 7 -- enough to see 6 or 7 (out of 10) bars and make the tuner's light come on -- but no lock yet.

EDIT: now I'm not even getting that. They're probably still making some adjustments.

Dark Rain

02-17-09, 03:16 PM

pdx77

02-17-09, 03:21 PM

Yep. Rescanned and KWWL-DT is coming in a lot stronger now.

Are KCRG, KGAN and KFXA all switching at midnight?

Oh, I noticed last night that KRIN-DT was showing their analog signal instead of PBS HD. What gives?

KCRG is not making the switch untill June, KGAN and KFXA are both switching off at midnight.
(from what I understand KGAN is doing the night light thing)

and KRIN - DT is no longer offering the national PBS HD feed and instead just showing HD programs when available

dline

02-17-09, 03:26 PM

Are KCRG, KGAN and KFXA all switching at midnight?

Oh, I noticed last night that KRIN-DT was showing their analog signal instead of PBS HD. What gives?To recap:

- KCRG is not switching until June 12.

- KGAN and KFXA are switching off analog at 11:59pm.

- Iowa Public Television changed its schedule earlier this month and now simulcasts its analog schedule on its x-1 channels, with HD when an HD simulcast is available. (One big disappointment is that this meant moving NewsHour from 6pm -- where there is an HD simulcast available -- to 5:30pm, where there isn't.) There is really no such thing as a full-time national "PBS-HD" feed anymore -- the network began phasing that out earlier this year and started going by the national schedule, which includes kids' programming during the day and some upconverted SD shows.

Dark Rain

02-17-09, 03:28 PM

KCRG is not making the switch untill June, KGAN and KFXA are both switching off at midnight.
(from what I understand KGAN is doing the night light thing)

and KRIN - DT is no longer offering the national PBS HD feed and instead just showing HD programs when available

Thanks. Is there a reason why they aren't showing the PBS HD feed anymore? Is this temporary? Jim Lehrer and other popular programs are in HD and they're showing SD upconverts, which look terrible.

Dark Rain

02-17-09, 03:32 PM

Iowa Public Television changed its schedule earlier this month and now simulcasts its analog schedule on its x-1 channels, with HD when an HD simulcast is available. (One big disappointment is that this meant moving NewsHour from 6pm -- where there is an HD simulcast available -- to 5:30pm, where there isn't.) There is really no such thing as a full-time national "PBS-HD" feed anymore -- the network began phasing that out earlier this year and started going by the national schedule, which includes kids' programming during the day and some upconverted SD shows.

Okay, thanks for the info. NewsHour I can deal with not being in HD, but it looks worse than it should.

dline

02-17-09, 03:43 PM

Well, I've got 7 now, but it required me to point my indoor antenna in a direction I wasn't expecting to point it. It's pointed northeast, right up the avenue. That would seem to be almost perpendicular to the signal path from Rowley.:rolleyes:

Oddly enough, I'm getting solid KCRG and KGAN from that direction, too, although KRIN is a little flaky.

EDIT: sorry about the seemingly duplicate post. I guess two of us had your answer at nearly the same time, Dark Rain.

dohnut

02-17-09, 04:30 PM

Okay, thanks for the info. NewsHour I can deal with not being in HD, but it looks worse than it should.

I asked PBS a question about this earlier in the week, here's the reply:

---------------

Thank you for your inquiry.
During this interim period while we are still building out our new digital master control, you will see some differences in picture quality among the various shows. The Lehrer report is a 'time shifted' show that is put in computer storage when down linked from satellite . Our equipment does not, at this time, allow us to play back a real High Definition show from our storage without it being down converted to Standard Definition and then up converted to High Definition again. As you might have seen, this does not give the pristine picture that a straight pass-through High Def situation would allow. We are working on this as I write and I can assure you that it will be in true High Definition as soon as we can do that. You will also notice that shows passed through directly from satellite in High Definition will come to you that way.

oldsyd

02-17-09, 04:49 PM

Maybe you are getting a reflected signal. Any big metal objects in that direction?

My KWWL-DT signal has been rock solid since about 1:55PM. I have the Insignia box and the signal meter is locked in under the first "o" in "Good".
I'm on the SE side of CR by Mercy. I also have a VHF antenna fed into a combiner with my UHF.

Well, I've got 7 now, but it required me to point my indoor antenna in a direction I wasn't expecting to point it. It's pointed northeast, right up the avenue. That would seem to be almost perpendicular to the signal path from Rowley.:rolleyes:

Oddly enough, I'm getting solid KCRG and KGAN from that direction, too, although KRIN is a little flaky.

EDIT: sorry about the seemingly duplicate post. I guess two of us had your answer at nearly the same time, Dark Rain.

4lids

02-17-09, 05:26 PM

bearmstead

02-17-09, 05:27 PM

Argh! Thats what I was afraid of. I'm getting a signal but its entirely too pixelated to watch. This is off an antenna thats up 40 feet in the air. Granted its a UHF only antenna, but I figured it would work 'well enough'. Guess not. No way I'm climbing that tower for at least a month or so until it warms up. Lets hope Dish gets our locals in HD tomorrow...
I agree, Channel 7.1 is way to weak for my TV to pick up. I was getting 10 out of 10 bars before the switch, now only 3-4 bars. Tried adjusting antenna with no luck. I hope this is on their end & not mine. I have 50db amplified indoor antenna with rabbit ears. Channel 2.1 on the other hand is coming in a full 10 bars, as opposed to 4 before the switch.

gjvrieze

02-17-09, 05:28 PM

On the air at 1:55PM... had some fun with the line as the bullet we needed to use to connect the old and new sections was a bit longer than expected. So after I cut the inner down, I got it on air.

After hearing some of the results (not good), I ramped up the ERP to 5.2 KW (wide open) and things seemed to get better for some. I suspect many UHF only antennas are to blame, but we are seeing some serious stuggles with indoor rabbit ears as well.

Keep me posted on how things are going for all of you. I'm going to begin to answer some calls now. We are getting slammed, of course!

-Jarrett

Wow, cannot believe you made time (today) to post! Thanks so much for the details!

oldsyd

02-17-09, 05:51 PM

I have a VHF antenna in my attic fed into a combiner, then a preamp, then some wimpy coax down to the basement (40-50 ft run) then to a splitter, then finally either to my Insignia DTV converter box or the crappy DTV tuner in my Sanyo TV.

Both tuners have no problems. Even if I unplug the preamp, I still get a 66% signal on both tuners.

And, I noticed that it looked like you shutoff the Harris transmitter, but it looked fairly new. Is the analog transmitter the same as the current digital one, but with some changes? Before I saw the newscast I assumed you had 3 separate transmitters (VHF-analog, VHF-digital, UHF-digital).

On the air at 1:55PM... had some fun with the line as the bullet we needed to use to connect the old and new sections which was a bit longer than expected. So after I cut the inner down, I was able to get in connected and got the new rig on the air.

After hearing some of the results (not good), I ramped up the ERP to 5.2 KW (wide open) and things seemed to get better for some. I suspect many UHF only antennas are to blame, but we are seeing some serious stuggles with indoor rabbit ears as well.

Keep me posted on how things are going for all of you. I'm going to begin to answer some calls now. We are getting slammed, of course!

-Jarrett

East Iowa 01234

02-17-09, 05:58 PM

On the air at 1:55PM... had some fun with the line as the bullet we needed to use to connect the old and new sections which was a bit longer than expected. So after I cut the inner down, I was able to get in connected and got the new rig on the air.

After hearing some of the results (not good), I ramped up the ERP to 5.2 KW (wide open) and things seemed to get better for some. I suspect many UHF only antennas are to blame, but we are seeing some serious stuggles with indoor rabbit ears as well.

Keep me posted on how things are going for all of you. I'm going to begin to answer some calls now. We are getting slammed, of course!

-Jarrett

Thanks for the update on your end.............here is mine

I don't know hat time you ramped up, but I was watching .......or trying to watch Emergency on 7.3 @ about 3:10 or so and it was ok then started pixelating....................7.1 &7.2 also. I tried a rescan and moving my antenna a bit without success..............................after rescaning my DVR's I rescaned the tv again and lo and behold no pixelating on 7.x DT (oh about 3:40 or so when I came back to Emergency)

Is it my imagination or is the new VHF signal much more directional..........I seemed to have to fine tune the direction much more than I did when it was UHF

Now @ 4:55 pm clear as a bell.

5 milees Straight south of Anamosa, 14 miles straight east of Marion.

fdelin

02-17-09, 05:59 PM

I'll give you an update from the iowa city area when I get home. Until now I've been 10/10 on my tuner for 55 but it's an 8 bay channelmaster and CM preamp. I'm stopping off to grab a vhf antenna on the way home and hoping I don't need to unbox it. Guess we'll see. I've got the 7777 preamp so I can always combine them if need be.

Thanks for all the great info.

PismoNate

02-17-09, 05:59 PM

I'm another one who is having trouble with 7.1 now. I'm on Southwest Iowa City on a hill facing north, using a Channel Master 4221 with Winegard AP-8275 VHF/UHF amp inside facing the towers out a 2nd story window. Was getting KGAN, KWWL, KIIN, KWKB, KFXA, and KRIN digital channels no problem (they were all on UHF though?).

KWWL was the flakiest before, but I still got a good enough signal 98% of the time.

Guess I will try swapping in a radioshack VHF/UHF antenna that I had tried before purchasing the CM 4221, which I have loved, and will report back with the results.

VintonShellsburg

02-17-09, 06:08 PM

Unfortunately, I must report that I'm also one of those having trouble with channel 7 now. Used to get a good signal in the 85-90% range on plain rabbit ears (VHF with UHF loop) with little effort, a benefit of living so close to the tower. Now, the signal peaks in the pixelated 40s regardless of how I rearrange the antenna. Hopefully this is only temporary, because this is not a good time of year to climb up on the roof to install an antenna.

East Iowa 01234

02-17-09, 06:08 PM

Just watched the 7.1 news .............very nice spot on Jarrett and the transfer from KWWL-TV and KWWL-DT.

Keep up the good work

brajo

02-17-09, 06:34 PM

I'll chime in too. I'm in Waterloo and have an old school uhf/vhf rooftop antenna and a Dish VIP 622. Signal strength for KWWL (ch 55 uhf) over the lunch hour today was 70-75 and tonight after rescan signal strength for KWWL (ch 7 vhf) was 90-95. Thanks Jarrett, hopefully you'll be able to get some sleep tonight!

Got my fingers crossed for Dish HD locals tomorrow too.

tsduke

02-17-09, 06:47 PM

Watching the signal meter on my Directv OTA tuner the signal is jumping from real low to real high. Between 40% all the way up to 100%. So far with just a few minutes of viewing is keeping a lock and no pixelation on 7.1. I'll keep watching through the 6pm news.

Directv hasn't updated the subs yet so I don't get them at all trought their tuner.

bagdropper

02-17-09, 06:47 PM

CM2016 with a 7775, single shot from antenna running rg6 about 60 feet into my PC, using Vista Media Center and a Aver Volar Max ATSC USB tuner (best there is I think). KWWL was all greens (scale of 6 levels I guess I would call it) pre-switch as all channels were, nothing now. Tried 360 degree rotations, no go.

My 2nd TV has an amped indoor Philips VHF/UHF to the antenna input (ATSC, bedroom TV), got all locals pre-switch perfectly, now nothing for KWWL.

SW CR very near Kirkwood Community College. KWWL was always my toughest "get"...I was afraid of this. I'm "fear and loathing" its the VMC that's at issue, can't tell if its still looking for 55.1 or not even after 2 re-scans - VMC via a xbox 360 is currently the only ATSC OTA source I got for my living room (damn DirecTV, deleting ATSC OTA on new STBs - refurbs, went through 3 of them before THEY gave up and forced me to take a H23). I think I need more antenna, might have to go to the old Radio Shack mid-level antenna I used to use (and loathe).

Prolly will be getting DTV locals now that KCRG is coming on board soon.

tsduke

02-17-09, 06:53 PM

I spoke too soon. A small amount of pixelation started just after I posted.

Jarret,
When is the move up the tower scheduled to happen now?

uhf

02-17-09, 07:10 PM

Can't lock onto KWWL-DT in Independence :(
Also tried at Walker with an antenna pretty high up on a tower and got nothing (I had lots of multipath there on analog so not surprised).

My antenna at home isn't the greatest, but it is what it is. I'll only be watching NBC shows on satellite from now on. I don't watch enough TV to mess with putting up a different antenna, maybe if I get a tower built for ham radio I can throw a VHF TV antenna on there.

dohnut

02-17-09, 07:17 PM

Yeah, the honeymoon is over.. :P Wish these stations could have moved to other UHF frequencies instead of back down into the VHF band.

I'm in CR and I just have cheap-o rabbit ears on my TV (1st floor). I didn't have any trouble with KWWL before today though it probably was the weakest signal of the major local networks. I can get a picture now (though still some pixellation) if I move the antenna around but the signal is worse and if I have to do that for the rest of the channels that will become a pain.

Upstairs (my house is up somewhat high) I have a Winegard SS-3000 (2nd floor) on a shelf run into an HD HomeRun. I get about 75% signal strength with that but no lock.

Guess I won't have KWWL (or some others after tonight) for a while until I get around to putting up an attic or external antenna which probably won't happen anytime soon.

n0ttw

02-17-09, 07:29 PM

I live in Jesup and don't have KWWL either. Analog 7 never came in on my OTA antenna (OK lots of snow with a faint pic) and I was enjoying things the way they were. I agree they should have stayed on the UHF bands.

I personally thought that the TV stations had to give up the VHF band anyways. I remember that being a big brew-haha over the new DTV rules.

bagdropper

02-17-09, 07:41 PM

I am beginning to believe in VHF multipath being my issue - I never, ever got a clear 2, 7, or 9 analog VHF, I guess I should not be surprised this is happening. I took my indoor antenna on a trip across every point in my bedroom, got absolutely nothing on both analog and digital of all stations at one point, took me a half hour just to get back the 17 digitals I had before...no KWWL.

I have a feeling we're gonna seperate the men from the boys so to speak as far as VHF reception capabilities...

I guess right now, we need to know who IS getting KWWL, and where they live, and what their rig is so the rest of us can see what works. I'd also like to know if any Windows Media Center folks are getting KWWL now.

Jarrett...trust me, not ragging on you, although I echo sentiments on why UHF 46-36 or anything 14-52 available/open wasn't an option way back when.

n0ttw

02-17-09, 08:03 PM

I have to agree that VHF channels were my worst, but KWWL was always bad. 2 is still coming in, digital only of course, so I'm confident I can rule my system out as the problem.

Here's my setup:

I have a 42" Panasonic with the latest tuner firmware upgrade, 47' RG6 connected to a RS HDTV Indoor/Outdoor Directional Antenna (15-2187). ALL NEW when installed. No reception of KWWL.

tvguy01

02-17-09, 08:11 PM

I am guessing that the CFU 'off-the-air' values shown on their website:

http://www.cfu.net/CyberNet/HD/index.php

are instead the baseband values their digital demods are seeing via fiber?

(No change in the values at all for KWWL-DT, even tho both digital 55 and digital 7 were off at 1 PM)

CR_Client

02-17-09, 08:13 PM

Why do people assume that since they're receiving KGAN, KCRG, and KIIN, but not KWWL, that their rig isn't the problem?

KGAN, until midnight tonight, is still on UHF channel 52. Being able to get KGAN and not KWWL during these 11 hours points more to a problem on the user's end than on the station's end.

If you had a snowy picture on 2, 7, and 9 analog, your rig won't do you a spit of good for 2 and 7 after tonight, nor 9 after June 12th.

dline

02-17-09, 08:19 PM

Unfortunately I lost what I had of KWWL tonight.

After coming back from doing the laundry, I turned on Wheel of Fortune and got some pixellation, but when I tried to adjust my indoor antenna to get rid of it, it went away. I haven't had more than a whiff since.

I've given up for the night, but I'll try to make some adjustments tomorrow. 7, 9 and 20 were my best analog channels from this place, so I hope this is only temporary until 7 reaches its full power and that this doesn't happen with 9 in June.

ivorygate

02-17-09, 08:19 PM

Trip in VA

02-17-09, 08:21 PM

CR_Client

02-17-09, 08:40 PM

I re-scanned both of my TVs now that I'm home, and I get 7-1, 2, and 3 on my Samsung SA 3082 with about 5/10 signal strength, which is plenty for a lock on that TV. On my Sony XBR960, I'm getting 7.1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, with 4 and 5 the same as 2 and 3, at about 78%. But I lost 2.1, 9.1, and some others on the Sony when I re-scanned.

I didn't look on the Samsung to see if I was getting 7-4 or 7-5, as I manually tuned 7-1, 2, and 3 to find them.

I'm running a Radioshack Indoor/outdoor VHF/UHF powered antenna, which is a round unit with "wings" on it (3 or 4 years old), in my attic. I'm in a low spot on the near NE side of CR near Coe College, with a very large hill due North and West of me.

KirkTV

02-17-09, 09:11 PM

On the air at 1:55PM... had some fun with the line as the bullet we needed to use to connect the old and new sections which was a bit longer than expected. So after I cut the inner down, I was able to get in connected and got the new rig on the air.

After hearing some of the results (not good), I ramped up the ERP to 5.2 KW (wide open) and things seemed to get better for some. I suspect many UHF only antennas are to blame, but we are seeing some serious stuggles with indoor rabbit ears as well.

Keep me posted on how things are going for all of you. I'm going to begin to answer some calls now. We are getting slammed, of course!

-Jarrett

Jarrett,

Just a FYI, the digital VHF channel 7 constellation and eye pattern are much better looking now, measured at our studio in downtown Cedar Rapids than it was on UHF 55 digital. It looks pretty clean and tight, at least from our receiving antenna.

It sounds like you are being jammed with calls all day today, I have had viewers calling and saying you were so busy they were trying to get through for hours just to talk with you. We have been helping as many as we can when they call about channel scanning and converter box questions and how to get your digital signal. Hopefully people will understand and be patient.

Hang in there!

Kirk

uhf

02-17-09, 09:26 PM

Can an engineer tell us why KWWL and KCRG couldn't have (or didn't want to) try to get channels between say 29-41 or 49?

The only channels that HAVE to be vacated on June 12th are Channels 52-69.

Why did KWWL, KCRG, and KIIN want to go back to VHF? Simple answer is that there is much less path loss at lower frequencies, so much less transmitter power is needed.

UHF transmitters use a LOT of electricity. A 5 mega-watt UHF station can use between 150,000 and 400,000 watts of electricity. At around 10 cents per kilowatt hour, you are looking at somewhere around $10,800 and up just for electricity to run the transmitter for a month. Television isn't the cash cow you would think it is, utility bills that high are significant. And that doesn't even include air conditioning, tower lights, etc. Or any of the electricity needed at the studio. Or the more expensive antenna, transmission line, repair/maintenance parts...

gjvrieze

02-17-09, 09:28 PM

The only channels that HAVE to be vacated on June 12th are Channels 52-69.

Why did KWWL, KCRG, and KIIN want to go back to VHF? Simple answer is that there is much less path loss at lower frequencies, so much less transmitter power is needed.

UHF transmitters use a LOT of electricity. A 5 mega-watt UHF station can use between 150,000 and 400,000 watts of electricity. At around 10 cents per kilowatt hour, you are looking at somewhere around $10,800 and up just for electricity to run the transmitter for a month. Television isn't the cash cow you would think it is, utility bills that high are significant. And that doesn't even include air conditioning, tower lights, etc. Or any of the electricity needed at the studio. Or the more expensive antenna, transmission line, repair/maintenance parts...

Ya, but you are UHF!!! LOL (small bit of humor to lighten the mood!)

KirkTV

02-17-09, 09:37 PM

When "progress" is not actually progress... so long easily tuned-in KWWL at channel 55 (UHF).

Well, I guess I had a good run of OTA DTV with my TiVo S3, using just a small, powered UHF loop antenna on top of my TV, for over 2 years. I suppose I should be thankful that KCRG is giving me the rest of the current season of shows, before also screwing me over by going back down to VHF (spit) this coming summer.

Can an engineer tell us why KWWL and KCRG couldn't have (or didn't want to) try to get channels between say 29-41 or 49?

Of course, no matter what anyone tries to argue, I had things perfect before today and now they are jacked, so I suppose no answer will satisfy me.

Ivorygate,

Don’t give up on VHF yet. VHF still is an excellent option in my opinion for digital. It gives very good results at a lower ERP (Effective Radiated Power) than UHF does so it is much more efficient to run and more cost effective. For Jarrett and myself there were some other positives like moving away from a UHF transmitter that was tube based and over to a VHF solid state transmitter. Our UHF transmitter was/is much more problematic and finicky than our VHF transmitter and you need a skilled transmitter engineer (which are getting harder to find and keep in this new “everything digital and computerized” era) to keep those UHF transmitters tweaked and running properly, our VHF transmitter is much more forgiving in that sense.

Moving back to VHF allows some of the stations to go back on generator backup since some of us haven’t been able to make the large investment to add a generator system to our UHF side of the transmitter plant.

Also I believe KWWL hasn’t installed their second power cabinet yet which will allow them to get up to the full licensed power of 30KW ERP and I believe they are currently running at the original 18KW ERP. With that being said I am surprised that there isn’t better coverage out there at the current 18KW since I did expect it to cover as good or better than the UHF was. VHF follows the terrain better than UHF which is a bit more line of site dependent, so I really think VHF was the right choice for many of us, and as KWWL can increase their power (assuming I am correct that they are not at maximum power yet) I think you will see much better coverage in the long run. I know patience is tough when you can’t get good reception but I think VHF was a good choice and it should pay off. Like I said I am surprised that most of you are not seeing a stronger signal on VHF but there are probably reasons I haven’t covered in this post and in the end will probably see a much higher signal strength.

Hope this helps explain it a bit and why I was leanign towards VHF.

Kirk

flyingvee

02-17-09, 09:55 PM

Well - I don't think its my rig, since I have rescanned, and am now picking up ThisTv on 7.4 and RFD on 7.5 - what I'm not getting is KWWL-DT on 7.3 (or 7.1)

I'm still receiving KWWL-DT via cfu cable, but OTA, all I'm getting are the two subs, not the main channel.

n0ttw

02-17-09, 10:09 PM

CR_Client

02-17-09, 10:09 PM

4lids

02-17-09, 10:11 PM

ShrinerMonkey

02-17-09, 10:22 PM

VintonShellsburg

02-17-09, 10:24 PM

Well, I just got a different antenna, the remote-controlled amplified VHF/UHF antenna from Radio Shack (Or as I like to call it, the "big black mushroom"). It has brought channel 7 up to a watchable level, but there is still some random pixelation regardless of how I adjust it. However, it is an improvement over the basic cheapie rabbit ears I was using before, which is a step in the right direction. It's rather expensive at $50, but for those who are unable or unwilling to get a roof antenna, it seems to be a good choice.

I still find it discouraging though that I have to resort to purchasing new antennas for every TV when before I could have literally gotten by with a coat hanger due to my close proximity to the tower farm. I can literally look out the window and almost count each individual support wire holding up the towers, that's how close I am to them. Hopefully things will get better once they are able to crank up the power.

tsduke

02-17-09, 10:35 PM

I'm not sure what changed from 5:30 until now, but my KWWL signal is hanging right on 100% now instead of fluctuating up and down like it was earlier.

Other than a small amount of pixelation it's been pretty good picture wise.

I have a roof mounted Winegard HD7082(think this is right).

KirkTV

02-17-09, 10:43 PM

Well, Kirk... this VHF thing is going to be fun. All of the high band VHF transitions today are getting SLAMMED! I think if KCRG moved today as well, there may have been riots! I already have 70 some emails and about well over a hundred calls to return. The big issue seems to lie with indoor antennas: either ones that are those new "HD" UHF only antennas or rabbit ears, that seem to be freaking out due to multipath or something. I've had many reports of poeple having success, but other that are really struggling and I don't have great answers for them.

I do know that getting those indoor units near a window help matters. An earlier posted mentioning things seeming more directional, and it kind of looks that way, although it shouldn't. I'm wondering if there is something else going on here, but I can't put a finger on it yet.

The frustrating part is that I know we are putting out a cleaner signal now and it is more powerful (relatively) than the UHF that was on this morning. I'm not sure if going from 5.2 KW to 30 KW will solve these issues either. Obviously, I'm really lobbying to get this done ASAP. The WAOW transmitter will not be the rig though, as it can not be retuned to 7 (channel 9 right now)... so we are told. We will be getting a completely new rig. I'm going to fight for whatever I can to help matters.

In the meantime, if any of you figure something out that works well... type of antenna or setup, let me know. I'm working on some things here now for indoor units trying to find a better option or solution.

Hang in there everyone- Jarrett

Jarrett,

That is strange, I don’t understand it either. The results should be better than what you are hearing from viewers. You are right; it might be good that we didn’t go today also! I will look at our analyzer again tomorrow but your signal looked very clean on it today. We are down in a hole at our studio location and have a hard time receiving some of the digital channels, channel 55 digital was tough for us most days, and when we checked channel 7 digital this afternoon it looked solid. Maybe I didn’t stay on it long enough to see breakups but I felt I had better results. I will check it again.

The best indoor “rabbit ear” style antennas we have played with is the Terk TV5 powered antenna, which run about $50 locally unfortunately. I will fire up that antenna and see if we can get you with those, we couldn’t inside of our brick building before, so it might be a good test.

I don’t envy your many calls and emails, get some rest when you can.

Kirk

flyingvee

02-17-09, 10:50 PM

Jarret - where IS KWWL-DT? as posted, I'm getting 7.4, 7.5, but not the main signal.

I have an external, old school ChannelMaster on a rotor, pointed towards your tower. - unless there is a lot more multipath for VHF than UHF, I should be good (it is a combo antenna - was using UHF - now using VHF side of it.)

Plus, that still doesn't explain why I only get the subs. Any ideas?

Trip in VA

02-17-09, 10:53 PM

RBenson

02-17-09, 10:53 PM

I live East of Riverside near the Casino and have a Winegard HD7084 antenna and Winegard Preamp on a 50' Tower. Signal strength on 9 reads 100% and Kwwl is at 76%. Have no problems with pixellating and picture is fine. The audio is very bad. It seems the level is way too high as I have to turn the volume on my Onkyo audio system down to about 38 where it is normally set about 55-60 range. I was watching another channel and turned to seven and thought I was going to lose my speakers. Hopefully there is an adjustment to be made yet for the audio.

flyingvee

02-17-09, 11:04 PM

flyingvee:

What kind of gear do you have? If you're getting it on 7.4 and 7.5, it sounds to me like the TV still has 7-1 through 7-3 in memory mapped to 55 and is picking up the "new station" on 7 as well and not mapping it. Is it by any chance a Sony?

- Trip

you must have run into this before - yes, a Sony DHG500. I just did an ADD CHANNELS....now I'm doing a complete rescan - with luck that'll fix it.

EDIT - YES, that did it. Now coming in fine, in the right place. 7.1 is where it belongs, and working fine. Sry for the whine; thanks for the help.

Trip in VA

02-17-09, 11:14 PM

you must have run into this before - yes, a Sony DHG500. I just did an ADD CHANNELS....now I'm doing a complete rescan - with luck that'll fix it.

EDIT - YES, that did it. Now coming in fine, in the right place. 7.1 is where it belongs, and working fine. Sry for the whine; thanks for the help.

No worries, glad to help. It seems like these Sony receivers have all kinds of issues with weak or new signals. I've gotten good at picking out who is having "Sony problems" just from their posts. :D

- Trip

ivorygate

02-17-09, 11:23 PM

Well, I played around with the dipole "ears" on my indoor antenna for about 20 minutes tonight, trying to get them to tune in KWWL on channel 7, while not messing up the UHF loop position that has worked perfectly for the past few years for the rest of the channels. The best I can do now is between 58 and 62% for KWWL (was getting 85-90% when it was on channel 55). I'll have to see how it goes Wed night for "Life", but I'm afraid I'll have just enough periodic drop outs that I'll be too annoyed to watch it all the way through. Bummer.

n0cf (Chris)

02-18-09, 12:26 AM

I broke out a set of rabbit ears (two telescoping rods) - extended each to about 14" on the east side of my sunroom. Antenna is 7 feet above ground - I'm at 940 feet ASL in NW Cedar Falls. Sony KDL-V32XBR1 says 80-83% signal strength (whatever that means)... more importantly - 25db of SNR and the AGC is attacking 43% of the time.
Pretty good IMHO... considering the Sony maxes out at 98-99% signal with 31db SNR on any channel.

I'm good to go terrestrial (KTTC and KWWL, waiting for WHO to swap to digital on 13 after midnight and for KAAL to get on 36 digital - whenever that will be - my only worry is when WOI goes digital on 5... 66-72Mhz still means a lot of horizontal metal compared to 174-216 for channels 7-13).

Now if Tivo will update the terrestrial channel assignments (since I stupidly programmed most of my NBC shows on 55/7.1 instead of my CFU feed) :(

elaws

02-18-09, 02:01 AM

The audio quality on 7.1 for SVU is absolutely horrendous on both Mediacon as well as OTA. Like the other night, it's way over-boosted, clipping even with my TV and stereo turned down 15 dB lower than my usual listening volume.

Right after we saw this post, Jarrett and I were checking out the audio on the Dolby encoder. It was difficult to tell if the center channel was coming over modulated from the network source, or if it was our conversion gear doing it. Making it more difficult is that there is no late night content in 5.1.

If you notice this during the Today Show - please let us know! We will probably be on the phone too much to spend much time listening.

thanks!

-Eric

elaws

02-18-09, 02:11 AM

I used to get 2 and 9 pretty clear on analog (9 only now), but 7 always was way snowy on analog. When it came to digital, KWWL again was iffy but after some minor tuning on my part it was stable.

So my question is.....

Could this be a hidden radiator problem on KWWL's end? I should see something even if the ERP was 500 watts....

It certainly isn't a propogation problem as I'm too close to the tower. I can't be in a null-point as I wouldn't receive the other stations well. Can't be an antenna problem on my end or I'd have other problems with other stations period. I even transmitted a make-shift analog video signal on 7 and the TVs in the house received it.

As a ham radio operator and an Electronic Technician, I have gone through my system with a fine tooth comb. I have never seen this problem before and I'm just looking for answers.

We don't think that it is a radiator problem...for example, I have a phone call from a family 20 miles NE of Prairie du Chien, WI, that had never seen us before - were getting us perfectly tonight, yet people 10 miles off of the tower are having problems.

It seems like it probably is a multipath issue. We were toying around with an Insignia converter box, a set of rabbit ears, and a 2'x1.5' metal sheet (as a blocking device/reflector) and depending on position, able to improve the signal picked up by the rabbit ears by as much as 50%.

It's certainly not a solution that we would like to suggest to all of our viewers, but it was interesting to experiment with.

-Eric

oldsyd

02-18-09, 02:47 AM

Regarding channel 7, if you have a signal bouncing up and down, it might be an FM problem. On analog I had interference that would ruin the picture every 20 seconds or so until I installed an FM trap.

Not sure if FM interference would apply now, but it sure can't be helping things.

And, I'd also like to quote something I recently heard a TV engineer say, "indoor antennas suck".

If you want free TV and don't want to constantly have to tweak things, invest in a good
outdoor antenna and at least put it in your attic and run some good coax for it.

Yes, it might cost you $100 or even $200, but what would cable TV or a dish cost?
It's a one time fee. I'm sorry if you live in a place where you can't do this, but it's the truth.

I spent about $150 to put full sized UHF and VHF antennas, a preamp, combiner and
a coax run (all Winegard or Channel Master) in my attic in about 1992, and I figure I've
probably saved myself over $5-7000 in bills.

I figure if I ever move, I can use it as a selling point.

Good luck, everyone!

uhf

02-18-09, 07:58 AM

I agree 100% that the issues with KWWL are multipath. KWWL Analog was always my worst looking station here in Independence, not due to low signal, but due to severe multipath, even when I had a real V/U antenna at 35' on a tower.

Tonight when I get home from work I'll tweak my antenna a bit, it's supposed to be a Hi-VHF/UHF antenna, but it never performed well on VHF Analog. It's what worked at the time without having to build a tower or go up on the roof.

Anyone know of some cheap/free tower sections? Only need 40-50 feet.

East Iowa 01234

02-18-09, 08:19 AM

Got home from work this am @ 5:30 , put a cheap preamp from Walmart on line since the 7.x stations were pixelating bad on my DVR....but not on my Vizio 26" LCD. (splitter was before running to either).

I then turned my rotator to Davenport and rescanned..................If I am turned toward DVP the rear of my antenna is pointing toward KWWL tower.

Getting 2, 4. 6. 7. 8. 9, 12, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 28, 32, 48......and the DT channels associated with most of them . No pixelation for the most part.

Watching Today show right now.................off the back end of my antenna...............excellent pix thru the DVR tuner (& the TV tuner in HD of course) Sound is good

Once again at approximately Hwy 1 & Hwy 151 south of Anamosa 950' above msl................uhf/vhf antenna(100 mile rating) 30 ft above ground on top of my house.

I see KGAN-TV is running the DTV infomercial from IPTV in a loop. 2.1 is running CBS & KGAN normal programming

bagdropper

02-18-09, 08:37 AM

I was hoping to re-scan this morning, but the power was out on my street.

I bet I tried to re-scan 10 times last night on my Olevia/indoor rig, and maybe 5 times with the PC/CM2016...no go.

Looks like I may have to check out the FM trap switch on the CM7777 amplifier...appears I have to pop the cover and inside is a toggle switch on/off. I got a feeling that may be the ultimate issue.

thadsaab

02-18-09, 09:26 AM

I rescanned with the HDHomerun yesterday around 7pm. I live on a hill in Iowa City with a fairly unobstructed view. KWWL just barely came in with my UHF-only silver sensor out on the deck. Getting everything working in Vista Media Center required a couple trips through the configuration utility and a reboot. The signal is stable, but just barely usable and occasionally drops below the usable level. I have a pair of rabbit ears to experiment with tonight.

rcourtney

02-18-09, 09:39 AM

oldsyd:

I agree that FM may be causing your signal to fluctuate. Depending on
where you live might need a bullet type trap inside your home too.
Microwave Filter Company makes them and so does Gilbert.

uhf:
An antenna in the >>> pattern might be better than a H-H pattern to cut
multipath. Warren Electronics in Rock Island has had a few section at their
shop for months, if you don't mind driving for them.

All:
My antenna design I posted last fall works like a charm here in Cedar
Rapids/Marion area. We tried it in North Liberty and was having some issue
with real 7 DT. I will try a newer design with more physical gain (ie: more
elements for 7-9 this Spring) might be in the >>> pattern but that is much
harder to drill with thin aluminum. I'll let everyone know how it makes out.
I sure like the current tiny design and when my neighbor saw the
HD signal he ate crow from his fall season ridicule of my antenna.

flyingvee

02-18-09, 09:56 AM

Is it ok to hate this crap? (the whole transition?)

thought I was totally proactive - got my lil box w/govt coupon (love that I paid sales tax on full pop - guess Chet needs the money worse than me.) dug around, found a 75 -> 300 convertor, since the tv in my office is so old it runs off the twin lead rabbit ears. had the coax cable, was all set.

and dang - I need another convertor to get my rabbit ears to work. This is a kludge. scr@w the coupons - we need Obama to buy everyone a new tv with built in astc convertor and antenna.

(I almost called Mediacom - to take them up on their 4 months free basic offer ;))

But I know my convertor box will work - it has DTV printed right on front.

ivorygate

02-18-09, 10:00 AM

And, I'd also like to quote something I recently heard a TV engineer say, "indoor antennas suck".

Remember the very first cell phones, milk-carton sized beasts with pool cues sticking out the top, so that if you were outside, on a hill, it would maybe get reception. I wonder why that style never changed, why aren't we all still using such powerful demonstrations of technical prowess? I wonder why phones are the size of credit card now and I've never seen anyone have to extend the antenna to get a signal.
Technology is great, when things actually progress, but I fail to see how after having no problems for 4 years getting in OTA DTV with a small UHF loop antenna in my house that LOSING channels with that simple configuration is actually "progress".

fdelin

02-18-09, 10:10 AM

Sorry didn't get a chance to make a post last night.

75% or so on KWWL with the 4228/7777 only. Solid lock, no dropouts.

Granted I am basically on the highest point in Johnson County with a very clear line of sight north. The antenna is in my attic, two story home, and even has just 6.5 of the 8 bowties left thanks to last year's ice storm.

Good thing it's working too, no VHF antennas for sale that I could find anywhere in the Iowa City area last night.

Dark Rain

02-18-09, 10:22 AM

(I almost called Mediacom - to take them up on their 4 months free basic offer ;))
I got that in the mail the other day and couldn't help but laugh at it. Their plan is to get you to start paying for cable after June 12. They're not really doing this to help people.

Dark Rain

02-18-09, 10:31 AM

Technology is great, when things actually progress, but I fail to see how after having no problems for 4 years getting in OTA DTV with a small UHF loop antenna in my house that LOSING channels with that simple configuration is actually "progress". To each their own.
Well, I never had much luck with an indoor antenna. Having to adjust it everytime for even one channel gets old after a while. My rooftop antenna, while old, picks up everything. High winds are still a bit of an issue with certain channels, but I'm guessing I need a new one.

redhawk

02-18-09, 10:53 AM

I am getting 2.1 and 28.1 ok, but my signal strength is the same as before. Will it be better when they cut off the analog. I thought the analog would be shut off when the changeover occurred. My signal got stronger on 7.1 when the change over happened.

sgarringer

02-18-09, 11:05 AM

Remember the very first cell phones, milk-carton sized beasts with pool cues sticking out the top, so that if you were outside, on a hill, it would maybe get reception.

Cellphones changed more due to a dense build-out of cell sites more than anything else. Those bag phones put out 3W at 850MHz, most of our phones today are lucky to put out 300mW at 1900MHz.

Some of the miniaturization is also due to the fact that components were developed which could transmit all on one chip dye -- ironically that's the same reason why the DTV converters are so much smaller than old tuners, even old cable boxes.

However, that being said, I really wish that the FCC would have forced stations to all move to UHF instead of letting stations go back to VHF. I'd imagine the value of frequencies opened up in VHF would have been worth significantly more than the top end UHF frequencies. Especially some of the low end VHF frequencies around 60 MHz, etc...

Oh well, too late now. We'll still have a kludge of VHF & UHF I suppose.

jalexand

02-18-09, 11:17 AM

sgarringer

02-18-09, 11:27 AM

They were all uplinked; but Dish does not usually make channels available until the afternoon or early evening. We won't know anything until then.

Speculation was that DirecTV caved to KCRG's price because they were afraid that Dish was going to light up locals and have all the channels and get people to switch from DirecTV...

jalexand

02-18-09, 11:32 AM

Yea but why if you were planning on bringing up all 4 channels in HD would you only post two of them to your website?

tsduke

02-18-09, 11:37 AM

elaws

02-18-09, 11:51 AM

I know that everyone wants to talk about OTA today with the switch over yesterday but has anyone with Dish seen the local HD channels show up. According to the retail chat today was the day but when I checked before I went to work I didn't have them in HD yet.

On a bit of discouraging news some of the info from satelliteguys.us was pointing people at the dishnetwork.com site to check the local channels. Checking out our local DMA it shows only KGAN and KFXA as going to be in HD. Does anyone know if KCRG and KWWL didn't let Dish carry their HD channels. I was so hopping to get KWWL in HD on dish because I'm having issues getting their VHF signal.

KWWL would certainly allow Dish to carry the HD (in fact, they are currently doing a center cut of the hd on 9157) but I don't think they required it. This is the first I have herd of other locals being carried in HD on Dish - it is probably a requirement in the re-trans agreement.

The last time I talked to Echostar about it (a couple of months ago while they were installing their digital gear at the local up-link site) there were no plans to carry KWWL in HD.

DirecTV is currently carrying KWWL in both SD and HD (again the SD is just a center cut of the digital signal) and they even sent us a nice HD receiver and antenna so that we could monitor it - if only we had a nice TV to watch it on :-)

I believe that Echostar and DirecTV use the same up-link facility in the local area - and it should be no problem for Dish to carry the HD of KWWL. If you want to know more, the information about the re-trans agreement should be in the public file at the station - or the station manager could answer that question.

-Eric

EDIT

nevermind - Jarrett says that Dish is going HD today!

KirkTV

02-18-09, 12:06 PM

KWWL would certainly allow Dish to carry the HD (in fact, they are currently doing a center cut of the hd on 9157) but I don't think they required it. This is the first I have herd of other locals being carried in HD on Dish - it is probably a requirement in the re-trans agreement.

The last time I talked to Echostar about it (a couple of months ago while they were installing their digital gear at the local up-link site) there were no plans to carry KWWL in HD.

DirecTV is currently carrying KWWL in both SD and HD (again the SD is just a center cut of the digital signal) and they even sent us a nice HD receiver and antenna so that we could monitor it - if only we had a nice TV to watch it on :-)

I believe that Echostar and DirecTV use the same up-link facility in the local area - and it should be no problem for Dish to carry the HD of KWWL. If you want to know more, the information about the re-trans agreement should be in the public file at the station - or the station manager could answer that question.

-Eric

EDIT

nevermind - Jarrett says that Dish is going HD today!

From what we were told by Dish, when we called to find out if they were really taking our HD signal today, was that the press release announcement was a mistake on their part because of a communication issue within their company. They told us that they were only planning to retransmit KGAN HD and KFXA HD signals right now because of some kind of pre-agreement they had in place. When we asked if we could get a new agreement signed for HD, they said that the rest of us would have to wait until our current agreement was over. They seemed to indicate that KCRG and KWWL would not be offered at this time. We would like to have them carry the HD but am not sure if that will be an option. I’m not sure what to think about KWWL since what they told us and what Eric was told by Jarrett doesn’t seem to match.

I guess stand by and we will all find out together?!?

Kirk

oldsyd

02-18-09, 12:28 PM

Remember the very first cell phones, milk-carton sized beasts with pool cues sticking out the top, so that if you were outside, on a hill, it would maybe get reception. I wonder why that style never changed, why aren't we all still using such powerful demonstrations of technical prowess? I wonder why phones are the size of credit card now and I've never seen anyone have to extend the antenna to get a signal.
Technology is great, when things actually progress, but I fail to see how after having no problems for 4 years getting in OTA DTV with a small UHF loop antenna in my house that LOSING channels with that simple configuration is actually "progress".

It's funny you mention the "bag phones". I actually miss those, since the analog phones had greater range than the the new "Barbie phones". If you live out in the boonies, analog bagphones were the only way to go. There's a reason GM used analog phones for their first version of OnStar, because when you slam your Escalade into an oak tree in Lansing, IA, you are much more likely to get a signal with analog because Verizon isn't building towers to serve a town of 5,000 people.

Radio waves will always behave like radio waves, there is no way to change that. So, if it's cellphones or TV, you still will dominate with bigger, higher and outside. And you will lose radio waves when you go inside, downstairs and a smaller antenna. Sure, there's all kinds of tricks like preamps and stuff, but GIGO also applies, if it's garbage in, you still have garbage to work with.

Last night I hooked up my Apex DTV box to our spare TV up in our guest bedroom using a small UHF loop antenna. It had twin lead coming off it, and it's the cheap ones that used to come free with a TV, the insulation is all cracked. Guess what? I was able to pick up KCRG, KWKB, KFXA, KRIN and ION which if you count the different subchannels, is 11 unique channels. Obviously KWWL didn't show since it's a UHF only antenna, but I call that progress. 11 channels crystal clear with a loop antenna in the middle of an old plaster walled house?

I know it's frustrating when things change, but with all the resources here at the AVSforum, I've been able to stay ahead of the game, learn some things, and benefit from it. I know most people don't want to deal with anything technical, that's why there's copious amounts of money dumped every month to dish TV, cable companies and satellite radio.

Hang in there, it's worth it!

iowahawkeye

02-18-09, 12:42 PM

Remember the very first cell phones, milk-carton sized beasts with pool cues sticking out the top, so that if you were outside, on a hill, it would maybe get reception.
Kinda reminds me of getting those first wireless routers to work before XP had the configuration utility built into the operating system....and yes, we had one of those motorola brick phones....like 30 min/month.

Trip in VA

02-18-09, 01:31 PM

However, that being said, I really wish that the FCC would have forced stations to all move to UHF instead of letting stations go back to VHF. I'd imagine the value of frequencies opened up in VHF would have been worth significantly more than the top end UHF frequencies. Especially some of the low end VHF frequencies around 60 MHz, etc...

Unless you want a 6 foot antenna on your cell phone, the VHF frequencies are pretty much useless for that sort of thing.

- Trip

jalexand

02-18-09, 02:01 PM

From what we were told by Dish, when we called to find out if they were really taking our HD signal today, was that the press release announcement was a mistake on their part because of a communication issue within their company. They told us that they were only planning to retransmit KGAN HD and KFXA HD signals right now because of some kind of pre-agreement they had in place. When we asked if we could get a new agreement signed for HD, they said that the rest of us would have to wait until our current agreement was over. They seemed to indicate that KCRG and KWWL would not be offered at this time. We would like to have them carry the HD but am not sure if that will be an option. I’m not sure what to think about KWWL since what they told us and what Eric was told by Jarrett doesn’t seem to match.

I guess stand by and we will all find out together?!?

Kirk

Yea it's interesting that if they didn't' have any plan to broadcast you guys in HD until December they why would they allocate an uplink to both you and KWWL a month ago when they did KGAN and KFXA. I was really hoping that everything would show up in HD because my UHF/VHF isn't cutting the mustard with KWWL and at this point in winter I don't really want to figure out how to get an antenna on my roof.

KirkTV

02-18-09, 02:50 PM

Yea it's interesting that if they didn't' have any plan to broadcast you guys in HD until December they why would they allocate an uplink to both you and KWWL a month ago when they did KGAN and KFXA. I was really hoping that everything would show up in HD because my UHF/VHF isn't cutting the mustard with KWWL and at this point in winter I don't really want to figure out how to get an antenna on my roof.

I have no idea about an uplink for HD that was provided to us, nobody has ever contacted me about that in any way shape or form from Dish. All I can tell you is what the Dish representative told us this morning, when we asked why we could not go up with our HD signal today. That is what I passed along to the group for informational purposes. They said they were going to put out another press release clarifying the confusion. Not sure if they will, but that's the information I received. I wish I had more concrete news but unfortunately that is all that I have.

Kirk

digiblur

02-18-09, 03:04 PM

tsduke

02-18-09, 03:08 PM

Since all the CR locals are uplinked it has to be contracts that are holding the rest up.

sgarringer

02-18-09, 03:46 PM

Unless you want a 6 foot antenna on your cell phone, the VHF frequencies are pretty much useless for that sort of thing.

- Trip

There are already plenty of frequencies in use for Cellphones. 850MHz, 1900MHz, 2100MHz 700MHz, I highly doubt any of these freed up frequencies are going to be used for cellphone.

What they're going to be used for is public service. You can get a lot of bandwidth out of a 6MHz wide slice at 60MHz. In fact, the same amount as you get at 800MHz. Except, one of those frequencies makes it inside buildings easily, the other doesn't. Think about some sort of high-speed data link to police cars or something like that...

dohnut

02-18-09, 04:49 PM

Ok, so I was under the impression that when KGAN and KFXA switched off analog they would be switching their digital broadcasts to their old analog frequencies. It appears that KWWL is the only station so far that has changed frequencies though (?).

So, let me try and get this straight. Below is a table of the current channels (yeah, I left a few out). From what I can see via the FCC the channels in the "final" column are where these stations are going to ultimately reside. Is this an accurate statement or will these some of these stations still be switching channels at some point in the future?

call | virtual | current | final
-----+---------+---------+------
KGAN 2 51 51
KWWL 7 7 7
KCRG 9 52 9
KWKB 20 25 25
KFXA 28 27 27
KRIN 32 35 35
KPXR 48 47 47

Thanks.

jalexand

02-18-09, 04:51 PM

Check your guides....

5251(2) - KGAN [MPEG4 HD] - Ciel-2 129W TP 03 Spotbeam 21 (http://www.satelliteguys.us/thelist/database/Subscription/images/CIEL2_SB21.jpg) changed to Available (H)(Cedar Rapids, IA-CBS (http://maps.google.com/maps?&hl=en&q=Cedar Rapids, IA))
5253(28) - KFXA [MPEG4 HD] - Ciel-2 129W TP 03 Spotbeam 21 (http://www.satelliteguys.us/thelist/database/Subscription/images/CIEL2_SB21.jpg) changed to Available (H)(Cedar Rapids, IA-FOX (http://maps.google.com/maps?&hl=en&q=Cedar Rapids, IA))

Well in once sense that's great because I like a lot of the stuff on Fox but I was really hoping for KWWL and KCRG. I guess now I'll have to figure out why I can't get KWWL with my rabbit ears, that or watch it in SD. Yuck.

oldsyd

02-18-09, 05:50 PM

I think you got it right, except KWWL-DT was channel 55 until a couple days ago.

Channel 9 and 7 are the only stations going back to VHF, I don't think any VHF 2-6 stations are allowed to go back to the VHF-LOW band.

And the rest of the "finals" you have listed will stay there unless they change management or the FCC moves them around again.

It's kind of funny that KWWL and KCRG will be the only stations after June whose channel actually means something. News Channel 2 should be retitled News Channel 51. :)

Ok, so I was under the impression that when KGAN and KFXA switched off analog they would be switching their digital broadcasts to their old analog frequencies. It appears that KWWL is the only station so far that has changed frequencies though (?).

So, let me try and get this straight. Below is a table of the current channels (yeah, I left a few out). From what I can see via the FCC the channels in the "final" column are where these stations are going to ultimately reside. Is this an accurate statement or will these some of these stations still be switching channels at some point in the future?

call | virtual | current | final
-----+---------+---------+------
KGAN 2 51 51
KWWL 7 7 7
KCRG 9 52 9
KWKB 20 25 25
KFXA 28 27 27
KRIN 32 35 35
KPXR 48 47 47

Thanks.

Trip in VA

02-18-09, 05:56 PM

There are already plenty of frequencies in use for Cellphones. 850MHz, 1900MHz, 2100MHz 700MHz, I highly doubt any of these freed up frequencies are going to be used for cellphone.

Qualcomm's MediaFLO service for cell phones will be nationwide on channel 55 and is already operating in many markets. Verizon and AT&T bought large chunks of spectrum. Trust me, it's going toward cell phone data services.

What they're going to be used for is public service. You can get a lot of bandwidth out of a 6MHz wide slice at 60MHz. In fact, the same amount as you get at 800MHz. Except, one of those frequencies makes it inside buildings easily, the other doesn't. Think about some sort of high-speed data link to police cars or something like that...

Cops don't want to carry around 6 foot antennas either.

- Trip

highgeere

02-18-09, 06:18 PM

GaryP2

02-18-09, 08:11 PM

I agree 100% that the issues with KWWL are multipath.

For those folks having problems receiving KWWL-DT that are within 15-20 miles of the transmitter, I would suggest trying to attenuate the signal to help with the potential multipath issue. Years ago Radio Shack sold these, but I don't find them on their site. I wonder if their will be a renewed need as more people have more at stake than just dealing with a ghosty analog picture (i.e., no digital picture at all!). There may also be a need for small but very directional antennas to try and attenuate multipath more.

http://www.maplin.co.uk/searchtemplate.asp?criteria=VARIABLE%20TV%20ATTENUATOR

You can also attenuate the signal by chaining a few splitters together that you may have lying around the house. Put terminating resistors in the unused taps to avoid a signal leaking in there.

Good quality RG6 quad shield may help over cheaper coax to avoid the signal leaking from the cable if you're using a roof mounted antenna.

Don't the signal meters on digital TVs and converter boxes display more of the quality of the digital transmission as opposed to the pure RF signal level? A real strong RF signal with a lot of multipath may have lots more digital errors and display a weaker signal than a weaker RF signal that is getting a clean bit stream with few errors.

Finally, I know that they talk about multipath rejection when comparing converter boxes on this forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=186). Newer generation digital tuners are supposed to reject multipath better than tuners you find in older sets. I've never seen a good comparison other than just hearing that the technology got better as we learned how much of a problem multipath was going to be with DTV.

VintonShellsburg

02-18-09, 08:23 PM

I wonder if that attenuator is something that Midstate in Cedar Rapids would have on hand. I haven't been there in a long time, but I know that they have all kinds of TV antenna accessories, including lots of stuff I've never seen at Radio Shack.

EDIT: Will probably have to call them or stop in. Their website doesn't appear to have a product search function, rather instead just a listing of the various brands they carry.

oldsyd

02-18-09, 10:30 PM

Hopefully this is an OK place to post my question. I am in Cedar Falls and I'm using an amplified indoor antenna. If anyone else has a similar arrangement, I'd like to know what signal strength is like for the various stations, and whether or not it is consistent for you. Consistency is our main problem, as we get all of the available stations in at decent strength at times, but at other times we can't even view any of them. Is this normal when the antenna isn't changing position? I'm new to this, having recently purchased a TV for the first time in 5 years. If this post should be in a different thread, please point me in the right direction.

Thanks!

Edit: I didn't specify, but I'm referring to digital broadcasts. The remaining analog stations come in about the same all the time.

This sounds like multipath. When I had problems, I noticed problems when the wind was strong because the objects the signal was bouncing off of was moving. Problems went away when there was no wind and no leaves on trees.

Regarding the attenuators, you might try Iowa Radio in Cedar Rapids. They are cranky people, but usually have a good selection of RF stuff. Might just be easier to order online from someplace like http://www.solidsignal.com or http://www.starkelectronic.com/

ivorygate

02-18-09, 11:05 PM

Anyone else hearing the frequent audio drops on KGAN tonight?

CR_Client

02-18-09, 11:34 PM

Multi-path used to be a HUGE issue for CR people trying to watch KGAN when their transmitter was still in town. I wouldn't be surprised if the same issue started cropping up for those near KWWL and KCRG's transmitters as they go to VHF, too.

On a side note, I'll complain here because I like to complain, and there's actually a KCRG engineer watching, but, honestly, now that you're on digital, does the sports ticker REALLY need to take up 22% of the screen height, with a letter-and-pillar-boxed picture above it?

On a more practical note, the Time/temp display on KCRG Digital is smooshed in height compared to the analog Time/Temp, and almost impossible to read. Also, the times never seem to agree with each other between Analog and Digital.

CR_Client

02-18-09, 11:40 PM

Anyone else hearing the frequent audio drops on KGAN tonight?

The only thing I watched on KGAN tonight was the second half of Criminal Minds, but I was watching it over QAM. I didn't notice too many audio dropouts, but I wasn't paying that close of attention, either.

Honestly, KGAN, KWWL and KCRG have all had dropout issues lately, even over QAM. I don't know if it's an uplink issue, a network issue, or what.

CR_Client

02-19-09, 12:40 AM

Jarret-

I also wanted to just say "thank you" for your decision to switch at noon yesterday, instead of at midnight. While I was watching Conan O'Brien last night, it was passing midnight, and I thought to myself, "I'd be missing one of his last 5 shows if KWWL didn't decide to switch early today... damn..."

Good on ya, mate.

flyingvee

02-19-09, 08:57 AM

just a quick one - got my apex hooked up, vhf rabbit ears, SE side of Waterloo...and I'm getting IPT, Fox, and KGAN (!)

but not KCRG or KWWL...does anyone know what frequency they're on - just so I know when to tweak the rabbit ears, during the scan? thanks

GaryP2

02-19-09, 09:17 AM

does anyone know what frequency they're on - just so I know when to tweak the rabbit ears, during the scan?

VHF High Channel 7 is 174-180 MHz. Adjust the antenna for about 16-17" for a quarter wave. Jarrett has a good list of things to try here:

http://www.kwwl.com/global/story.asp?s=9868480

flyingvee

02-19-09, 09:42 AM

VHF High Channel 7 is 174-180 MHz. Adjust the antenna for about 16-17" for a quarter wave. Jarrett has a good list of things to try here:

http://www.kwwl.com/global/story.asp?s=9868480

thanks - got it. tho lost it when I tried the quarter length thing; must be multipath. The Apex has graphs for signal strength and quality - I can get 70% SS no problem (duh - I'm only 29 miles away, by antennaweb) but with the 16" rabbit ears, I have 0% quality. Got them at 33" or so now - half length (?) - and it's all good.

OT - wondering how my mother in law in Omaha is faring (actually, on a farm, 10 miles due E of the towers) - I set her up with an HD lcd for Christmas, astc tuner with rabbit ears. Good news - she can see the antennas from her living room. Bad news - she couldn't do a rescan to save her life...:(

GaryP2

02-19-09, 10:35 AM

wondering how my mother in law in Omaha is faring (actually, on a farm, 10 miles due E of the towers)

There isn't near as much chatter on the Omaha/Lincoln HDTV thread as here. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=45

A lot of the local HDTV threads lit up a couple days ago after some analog shutdowns. Folks are learning very quicly the impact of multipath and data transmission at VHF frequencies. I thought that moving to lower frequencies was the right thing to do for reaching out to fringe areas and power reduction, but after reading the challenges out there, I'm not so sure. I wonder if there will any study published to understand how many benefit vs. creating problems from their locals moving their DT down to VHF. I would have guessed that this was understood more before making the change. If tech savvy folks on this board are having these many problem, you know it's affecting a lot more. I wonder if this will delay the new June 12 date even more ... :)

flyingvee

02-19-09, 10:58 AM

just as a fwiw, my biggest problem was to acquire the danged signal in the first place. Once my box found it (no provision to add a channel manually - either found by auto or not found) - then I could tweak the antenna, watching the meters. But just finding 7.1 was quite a challenge. Signal strength - no problem; actually getting a signal clean enough to lock onto - PRICELESS...:D

(looks like KGAN made the right move, staying on UHF...as a 2nd fwiw, they came up on my very first scan. Even with VHF rabbit ears)

VintonShellsburg

02-19-09, 11:45 AM

Here's something ironic/odd.

I just had a neighbor call me complaining that after doing the channel rescan on their converter box, channel 7 is now the ONLY channel they can pick up. KGAN, KCRG, KFXA, every other channel has mysteriously disappeared on their box.

I'm thinking it's most likely just operator error (didn't rescan correctly). At least I know now that they're not having any trouble picking up channel 7.

Just thought I'd share this oddity, perhaps help lighten the mood.

tvguy01

02-19-09, 12:15 PM

The rabbit ear antenna is a 'half-wave' dipole, therefore each of the two elements should be adjusted equally to the 1/4 wavelength value of the channel desired. (For Channel 7, approximately 16.5")
The overall measurement (tip-to-tip) would be the 1/2 wavelength value of the channel desired (For Channel 7, approximately 33").
For the purist, the tip-to-tip length would then be adjusted downward slightly (1/2 wavelength x 0.90) to compensate for velocity factor and 'tip-effect' of the antenna plus lead-in)
So, somewhere near 32" should be the optimum tip-to-tip length for Channel 7, depending of course, on any surrounding metallic devices near the antenna.

Also, because the polarization of the transmitted signal is horizontal, the more the rabbit ears are positioned in a horizontal plane (rather than a "V"), the better your chances of maximizing the signal.
Again, surrounding metal objects can have a significant affect on the rabbit ears' optimum positioning.

Edit: For Channel 9, 'tip-to-tip' would be approximately 30"

dohnut

02-19-09, 12:22 PM

Well I did some more experimentation last night with channel 7. FYI, I'm in CR (SE side) with a decent LOS to the north (I'm on a hill that slopes up to the south).

I did manage to get my TV with the $12 Radio Shack antenna to get channel 7. My TV is near my front door (which faces north and has panes of glass). If I hang the antenna so it sits in front of the glass on the door I can get a 5-6 bar signal (out of 10) on my TV. It's a solid signal (one of the nice things about VHF) once you get it, but unfortunately that antenna position is not ideal for all of the other channels and I also can't use my front door when I hang it there :rolleyes:

Now, I have an SS-3000 upstairs hooked to an HD HomeRun which is in a room in the center of the house (the only room that I've run Ethernet to upstairs :P). So the signal(s) goes through at least 3 plaster walls and a stucco exterior to get an LOS to the north. I get strong signals here for everything but channel 7 now. So, I thought let's try moving the antenna to a north facing window and see how that fares. Surprisingly the signal was basically the same. That was depressing. So I put the antenna back to where it was and messed around some more. I managed to get the signal strength on channel 7 to 80%+ (by cutting out a splitter and what not) and still no lock! I broke out the aluminium foil and then managed to get a lock but the signal quality was horrible (80% signal only 30-40% quality). Obviously multipathing is kicking my HD HomeRun's butt. For the record tuner in the HD HomeRun is not as good as my TV's tuner (2007 Samsung) so this was not entirely surprising.

I do have an analog TV in my bedroom with a converter box and the 12$ shack antenna. I cannot get any hint of a signal for channel 7 on that either.

So, I can watch 7 if I need to in glorious HD on my TV downstairs, but I cannot record channel 7 or watch it in bed. :P

Another thing I noticed is that the channel 7 signal is much weaker than other signals (analog & digital). Under normal conditions channel 7 reports around 60-70% strength (FYI, I'm using my HD HomeRun to measure this). Other channels like analog 2 and 9 almost peg out at 100% (though the HD HomeRun cannot tune those -- ATSC only) and most of the UHF digital channels are 88-100%.

iowahawkeye

02-19-09, 12:53 PM

Anyone else hearing the frequent audio drops on KGAN tonight?
Haven't watched my Tue night NCIS/W/o a Trace yet, but last Sunday's Cold Case/Unit each had 2 dozen very short 'pops/hiccups" in them. Watching via mediacom/dvr.

thadsaab

02-19-09, 01:26 PM

Now, I have an SS-3000 upstairs hooked to an HD HomeRun which is in a room in the center of the house (the only room that I've run Ethernet to upstairs :P). So the signal(s) goes through at least 3 plaster walls and a stucco exterior to get an LOS to the north. I get strong signals here for everything but channel 7 now. So, I thought let's try moving the antenna to a north facing window and see how that fares. Surprisingly the signal was basically the same. That was depressing. So I put the antenna back to where it was and messed around some more. I managed to get the signal strength on channel 7 to 80%+ (by cutting out a splitter and what not) and still no lock! I broke out the aluminium foil and then managed to get a lock but the signal quality was horrible (80% signal only 30-40% quality). Obviously multipathing is kicking my HD HomeRun's butt. For the record tuner in the HD HomeRun is not as good as my TV's tuner (2007 Samsung) so this was not entirely surprising.

I bought a VHF/UHF combiner at Radio Shack and connected a pair of rabbit ears to the VHF side and the Silver Sensor I was already using to the UHF side. After some experimentation with the position and orientation of the dipole, I now get KWWL at 70% strength and 80% quality on the HDHomerun.

Based on tvguy01's post, I'm going to experiment with the element lengths tonight. Ultimately, I'll need a solution that works for 7 and 9.

dline

02-19-09, 01:40 PM

Well, I just pulled up the Des Moines thread. They also had a station (WHO-DT) move from UHF 19 to VHF 13. They're licensed for 36.5 kW and I have no reason to believe they're not putting it out.

Some folks simply needed a re-scan; others are having trouble with sat company OTA receivers getting bad guide data from Tribune causing their weather subchannel not to come in. But the activity is nowhere near as negative as it is on this thread.

I haven't been able to get back to central Iowa to try it out, but I'm gonna have to soon.

Trip in VA

02-19-09, 01:42 PM

dline

02-19-09, 01:50 PM

Remember that KWWL-DT is still at rather low power. 4lids says he has it going at 5.2 kW ERP, but the station has a permit for 30 kW. That boost might help some of the issues being reported here.

- TripThe deal with KCRG is about the same, 30.4 kW on Channel 9 after June 12. I've seen nothing in the record to indicate they won't be able to put out that much on day one.

dline

02-19-09, 03:23 PM

Of note from the papers today:

Des Moines Register: Budget cuts could threaten College Wrestling coverage on IPTV

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090219/SPORTS0208/902190372/1003/archive

Dark Rain

02-19-09, 04:07 PM

Does anyone know how much power KGAN is outputting and are they planning to increase it? For me, KGAN and KCRG come in a little weak, although KCRG is worse. Lately, KGAN's signal seems to come in solid for a awhile and then degrade. KCRG has always been spotty, but I'm guessing after June 12 I'll get a better signal from them. I'm in Waterloo.

w0en

02-19-09, 04:12 PM

Maybe they would have had enough cash from shutting off analog in Feb. to keep their program going? There will no doubt be other fallout from the delay.

iowegian3

02-19-09, 04:13 PM

Of note from the papers today:

Des Moines Register: Budget cuts could threaten College Wrestling coverage on IPTV

I've heard transmitters are happier when they run 24/7, but IPTV might want to consider shutting down between midnight and 6 AM for the next few months. Then if an old analog xmtr breaks down, voila! even more savings.:) At least it would be easier to explain than KWKB's unexpected:rolleyes:"catostrophic" failure of their analog rig on 2/6.

Question for Jon Ellis or anyone else in the know: must analog be on the same number of hours as digital, or vice versa? If the only requirement that's to be met is the (2/3*hrs btwn 6AM-6PM)+(2/3*hrs btwn 6PM-mid) reg., then that would provide quite a bit of leeway for operators to cut analog hours overnight.

I'm guessing if IPTV went dark for analog only Mid.-6AM btwn now and 6/12, there's the $40k needed for College :prasslin'.:p

ivorygate

02-19-09, 05:50 PM

Here's a different problem I'm having with KWWL having switched digital frequencies. Apparently, each broadcast station is responsible for contacting Tribune Media Services (through Zap2It.com contact information?) to let them know what they need to change for the guide data they license to companies like TiVo and others.

Even though I called TiVo support about the problem, all they do is pass the info along to Tribune and I have no confidence in my interaction that she understood what I was telling her. I get the sense that they just figure all of us are idiots that didn't know we had to do a new channel scan, which obviously I did. The real problem I and other TiVo users who have been recording OTA is that the guide data still associates KWWLDT with frequency 55. Even though my DVR can tune in KWWLDT on the proper frequency, the guide data won't associate with it and thus my scheduled recordings no longer record.

They also need to make a change for 7.2 and 7.3 in that the guide data (also looking at channel frequency 55) refers to them as KWWLDT2 and KWWLDT2, instead of ThisTV and RTN.

On another forum board I kept saying I don't understand how Tribune was caught off guard and can't just get this data from the FCC.gov site, but someone is telling me that it is up station managers to request that change directly.

In any case, while I assume there aren't all that many of us recording OTA with our TiVo S3 or HD models, in eastern Iowa, those of us who are really need Tribune (Zap2It) to get that guide data fixed ASAP. TiVo support said it could take up to 7 business days, that is, assuming the understood at all what I was talking about and believe me that their guide data is now incorrect for KWWL.

Trip in VA

02-19-09, 07:04 PM

TheFoxMan

02-19-09, 07:20 PM

Since all the CR locals are uplinked it has to be contracts that are holding the rest up.
KCRG is trying to get Dish to retransmit their HD feed. Here's the response I got from John Phalen, KCRG Station Manager.

About a month ago I had heard that Dish Network was telling people that they would launch local HD service here on 2/18. I have left several messages for David Moskowitz, Senior Vice President and General Counsel, who’s signature is on our current analog retransmission agreement. He has never returned an of my calls.

Earlier this week we received a copy of an email from a Dish Network employee sent to their local distributors indicating that they were launching HD here and it included KCRG. I responded to the person who had issued the email and asked how they were able to do that without our consent. She admitted that they had misinformed their distributors and that KCRG should not have been included. When I asked her why I had not heard from anyone regarding our digital signal she referred me to another person. This individual stated that they were launching only with the stations with whom they had already negotiated digital retransmission agreements (KGAN, KFXA) and that they would wait to negotiate with the rest of us until our current analog agreements expire. In our case that is December 31, 2009. When I asked if they would be interested in negotiating with us now, they said no.

I also plan on continuing the dialog with Dish Network regarding not waiting till December. I am ready and willing to negotiate now.

Regards,
John Phelan

uhf

02-19-09, 07:55 PM

Question for Jon Ellis or anyone else in the know: must analog be on the same number of hours as digital, or vice versa?

I'm guessing if IPTV went dark for analog only Mid.-6AM btwn now and 6/12, there's the $40k needed for College :prasslin'.:p

First question: yes.

Second question: money doesn't carry over from one fiscal year to next, so while it would save money, the rasslin wouldn't be affected by it. Some other state agency would likely blow the money on new carpet or something silly :D

uhf

02-19-09, 07:58 PM

Thanks for the info on KCRG HD on Dish. Hopefully they will be able to work out a deal. I plan to use OTA for my HD Locals (I can't see the 129 bird from my yard so use 61.5 instead).

jalexand

02-19-09, 09:26 PM

I'm watching CSI on DISH tonight. Were getting slight hiccups in the sound. Like very quick dropouts. Anyone else seeing that. I figured I would ask here before I called Dish.

Thanks
jason

tsduke

02-19-09, 09:28 PM

I'm watching CSI on DISH tonight. Were getting slight hiccups in the sound. Like very quick dropouts. Anyone else seeing that. I figured I would ask here before I called Dish.

Thanks
jason

Those audio hiccups are from KGAN as far as I'm concerned. Had them both ota and over Directv.

tlniec

02-19-09, 09:47 PM

Just chiming in -- I'm successfully receiving KGAN, KWWL, KCRG, KWKB, KFXA, and KRIN in Center Point. I'm using an amplified indoor antenna, with VHF rabbit ears and a UHF loop, located in my basement (on a shelf about 6' off the floor, would put it close to ground level). Antenna feeds into a Samsung DTB-H260F.

I did briefly lose KWWL, but that's because I had my VHF elements retracted. Once I pulled them out and adjusted them, it was fine. The disadvantage is having the VHF elements out seems to degrade my reception of KFXA and KRIN (signal strength dropped a bit). Might have to play a bit more with orientation of the loop and the ears.

khasha

02-19-09, 10:10 PM

I'm watching CSI on DISH tonight. Were getting slight hiccups in the sound. Like very quick dropouts. Anyone else seeing that. I figured I would ask here before I called Dish.

Thanks
jason

The problem is local with KGAN, I'm watching the show on KCNC out of Denver, CO and no audio problems.

iowahawkeye

02-19-09, 11:31 PM

Anyone else hearing the frequent audio drops on KGAN tonight?My dvr'ed NCIS had at 15 hiccups in the audio when I watched it tonight. mediacom via dvr.

Send kgan an email: http://www.kgan.com/sections/station/index.shtml

hdtvincr

02-20-09, 04:59 AM

My dvr'ed NCIS had at 15 hiccups in the audio when I watched it tonight. mediacom via dvr.

Send kgan an email: http://www.kgan.com/sections/station/index.shtml
I sent an email directly to the CE there. I will let everyone know what I hear.

Dark Rain

02-20-09, 08:29 AM

KGAN is operating at 500 kW, and there are no FCC applications on record to increase it further.

- Trip
Thanks.

flyingvee

02-20-09, 09:26 AM

[QUOTE=Dark Rain;15863559 For me, KGAN and KCRG come in a little weak, although KCRG is worse. Lately, KGAN's signal seems to come in solid for a awhile and then degrade. KCRG has always been spotty, but I'm guessing after June 12 I'll get a better signal from them. I'm in Waterloo.[/QUOTE]

totally bizarre. agree with 2 - analog, but just so strange...KGAN-DT was the only network station my Apex box found, on first try. - using only VHF style rabbit ears.

that one bit alone could be used to demonstrate how spotty and unpredictable the transition to digital is. Here I sit with a setup that is a joke, and the only thing I can pickup is KGAN-DT. Somewhere else in town, Dark Rain is staring at a rig that has to blow mine away, yet KGAN is "a little weak."

good luck Jarret, uhf, and the other guys...you're gonna need it. :)

tmnjus

02-20-09, 10:25 AM

My results FWIW.

Background: I live on the south side of CR just north of HW 30. (2 miles east of C St). My lot is extremely wooded, and I do not have a clear LoS to the north. I have been using a Radio Shack 15-2187 antennae on my roof and during the summer I was getting an average signal of around 90 for all the digitals. I am running this through a Dish 622 receiver.

Currently: I deleted KWWL and KWKB from the Dish locals setup and did a re-scan. I am now able to get both of these in addiation to all the others. Currently, KGAN/KCRG/KFXA are between 98-100. KWWL is 85. No complaints (until maybe the trees fill in....)

I was very skeptical of this antennea, but a friend talked me into it. I couldn't be happier with how it's working.

Tom

uhf

02-20-09, 10:51 AM

tvguy01

02-20-09, 11:49 AM

KARE: Man Shoots TV Over Converter Confusion
Missouri man angered about losing cable and being unable to get new converter box to work

By John Eggerton -- Broadcasting & Cable, 2/19/2009 2:00:00 PM MT

Filed at 9:53 a.m. EST on Feb. 20, 2009

OK, so the DTV transition hasn't been perfect.

While the early analog-cutoff of 421 TV stations on Feb. 17 has gone relative smoothly according to most reports, that was not the case of at least one Missouri man, according to KARE-TV Minneapolis-ST. Paul.

The station reports that a 70-year-old Joplin man was arrested and charged with unlawful discharge of a firearm after shooting his TV set. Responding to a report of shots being fired, the station reported, the police found the man angry that he had both lost his cable and had been unable to get his new DTV converter box to work.

According to the man's wife, he had been drinking.

j lehner

02-20-09, 12:42 PM

After all the complaining over the past year, I am surprised that nobody has mentioned that KCRG is NOW AVAILABLE on DirecTV in HD as of 6AM today.

tsduke

02-20-09, 01:03 PM

After all the complaining over the past year, I am surprised that nobody has mentioned that KCRG is NOW AVAILABLE on DirecTV in HD as of 6AM today.

That's great! I don't watch TV until night time so unless someone posts here about it I wouldn't know until then.

oldsyd

02-20-09, 01:37 PM

The audio dropouts on KGAN almost seem like there is
an audio spike which is inaudible (outside the hearing range)
and then a limiter or compressor drops the audio level, then
it gradually creeps up to normal.

bagdropper

02-20-09, 03:03 PM

Well, I've figured out what part of my setup issues are. Vista Media Center is basically not capable of recognizing that 7 is now VHF rather than UHF.

I first tried switching off the FM trap in my mast amp. I re-loaded Aver Media Center and re-scanned, it couldn't see KWWL at all, whereas before it too "saw" KWWL but didn't display a picture. No change with VMC...lists it, no signal, or so it says.

So, I reset the FM trap, then changed antennas. I had an old Radio Shack 6 VHF element UHF/VHF combo antenna bought in 2004, and voila, Aver Media Center saw and displayed KWWL perfectly. VMC, however, STILL won't pull in a signal.

Having success, I then re-split my lead after the power amp output to include my Olevia as a 2nd connection. Scanned, no KWWL. DRATS!

Playing around with the rotor, I decided to turn it to 360 degrees, which for me and my old rotor means on the compass about 130 degrees. VOILA! The Olevia pulled in all CR locals PLUS 4.1 and 4.2 in the Quad Cities! I used to be able to get all the QC locals during the summer only at night, but only on my DTV ATSC OTA enabled receiver (that I had then - don't get me started)...wow. I'm assuming since it also barely pulled in analog 4 that 4.1 is still broadcasting on 58.1, but still...evidently this RS antenna has just enough extra s/n capability and multipath reduction versus the CM 2016. While pointing at this compass heading, all the CR locals still lock on the Olevia, and VMC too (excepting for KWWL of course).

My only conclusion is that VMC "sees" the channel, but really doesn't know what to do with it.

At least I know now, it ain't my rig.

Just curious, I read a post earlier about someone with Media Center who is getting KWWL. Just curious, can you give me some info on how you did this? Specifically, did you just plain re-scan the configuration of your TV signal, or was this the first time you ever set it up? Also, were you receiving it prior via 55.1/UHF?

Just curious, because I really don't want to have to go through a complete reset of my VMC, cause I also would have to completely reset my 2 XBox 360 extenders also - with my media collection, that takes quite awhile. I've re-scanned about a hundred times, I really cannot conclude anything else other than for whatever reason, VMC just plain doesn't know what to make of KWWL right now.

Trip in VA

02-20-09, 03:13 PM

http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/post/251356.aspx

Just change KCRG to KWWL, and 52 to 7, and 9 to 7, as appropriate.

If it works out, is there any chance you'd donate a couple of minutes of time to lending me a hand with something? It sounds like your equipment might be adequate for what I need.

- Trip

bagdropper

02-20-09, 03:30 PM

What a moron I am. I forgot all about thegreenbutton - working on their fix now.

What do you need? Gotta leave the house in about a half hour, but I'll be back by 4pm central.

Trip in VA

02-20-09, 03:31 PM

What a moron I am. I forgot all about thegreenbutton - working on their fix now.

What do you need? Gotta leave the house in about a half hour, but I'll be back by 4pm central.

I'll send you a PM in a few minutes. I won't worry you with it now. I'm not in any rush, as I have plenty of school work and other work to get done.

Ooh, it appears you have PMs disabled, so here it is.

Hello:

What I'm looking for is detailed technical information with which to update the listings on my website, as seen in my signature. Computer-based receivers which are used with 32-bit Windows can provide me with this data in a clean, easy-to-read format using this program here:

http://www.tsreader.com/tsreader/TSReaderLite2.8.46e.exe

Install it, and when it runs for the first time, choose the ATSCBDASource driver. Then enter the physical channel number (7 in the case of KWWL, but 52 in the case of KCRG, for instance) and it will bring up a screen full of assorted data. (If it interests you, I can explain as much of it as I can to you, just let me know.) Let it settle for 10-20 seconds, ensure no more than 100 Continuity errors pop up, then go to Export > HTML Export. In the window that comes up, check all of the boxes at the bottom except for "EIT" and "Thumbnails" as I don't need that data. Then give it a name, save it, close the program.

Repeat for everything you receive, then send the whole lot to me via e-mail attachment, webmaster at rabbitears dot info.

If this is too much work or too much of a time sink for you, then just let me know and don't worry yourself over it; I can always find someone else. I'd just like to have the data to confirm bitrates and TVGOS and other assorted goodies.

Thanks. =)

- Trip

- Trip

dohnut

02-20-09, 03:43 PM

bagdropper

02-20-09, 03:45 PM

I use 64 bit Vista...does that matter?

Also, I cannot edit that htm file. I followed the firections listed, but it does not allow me to "Apply to Folders" in the first round of steps, therefore I believe its not allowing me to alter the 55 to 7 for KWWL.

Any suggestions as to what I did wrong?

Trip in VA

02-20-09, 03:57 PM

I use 64 bit Vista...does that matter?

Yeah, 32-bit's required. Oh well, never mind, thanks though. Anyone else have the gear to do it for me?

Also, I cannot edit that htm file. I followed the firections listed, but it does not allow me to "Apply to Folders" in the first round of steps, therefore I believe its not allowing me to alter the 55 to 7 for KWWL.

Any suggestions as to what I did wrong?

Yes. Go to Start and navigate to Notepad in the menus (or just search it). Right click on it and "Run As Administrator." UAC will challenge you. Now go to File > Open and then navigate to the file in question and try editing it.

- Trip

bagdropper

02-20-09, 04:28 PM

Thank You very much for you help, Trip. I wound up having to delete all the added subcarriers to get it to work...just eliminating 7.1 didn't help at first. Now, I have my whole house system set up exactly the way I envisioned it after the transition and can now fix 9 when that changes over in June (I believe 12 is also going back to VHF if memory serves).

Might be able to get the QC locals also if this 120 or so degree eastern offset holds up in bad weather. I do have a tree line somwhat blocking any western jog past due north and have fairly clear and clean going towards the Quads. At night time, the QC reception has got to be better (could get 8 real good, and 6 and 18 at times all summer nights in addition to 4), always was before. Wow, dual market locals in southern CR, woo-hoo!

Sorry I couldn't be of help to you, but you resolved a big time issue for me.

Looks like I prolly went up on the roof for nothing today, but I was going to use the CM2016 eventually for my Mom's rig in Marion eventually...guess I can get some mileage out of this 5 year old Radio Shack after all, unless another wind or ice storm kills it dead.

Thanks again!

CR_Client

02-20-09, 05:30 PM

Maybe someone on here can answer this question for me.

We were recently discussing the problem with PBS and their playback of time shifted content and the fact that they currently can't record and re-broadcast that in HD.

So when I'm watching the other major networks in our area and I see shows like Jeopardy! Entertainment Tonight, etc. and they say "in HD" but they're not being broadcast in HD... Well, why aren't they being broadcast in HD?

Thanks.

Because they're Syndicated shows. They're not broadcast at the same time in all markets as when they're sent out by the networks.

A prime example is "Live! With Regis and Kelly", which is only live on the East Coast, taped at 9 AM EST. When they show it on KCRG at 9 AM CST, it's a non-HD version. I'm not sure if KCRG tapes it at 8 AM CST and then re-broadcasts, or what, as I'm not entirely sure how the syndication process works, but that's the long and short of it.

The View is broadcast by ABC at 11 AM EST, and thus is available in HD on KCRG.

Most of those shows actually say "In HD where available", not just "In HD".

Of course, the KCRG website has shown "2 1/2 Men" as HD (in red text, even) at its syndicated time slot after the news, but I haven't seen it in HD once at that time slot. I wish they would take that off of their website or broadcast it in HD. Unfortunately, the former is more likely to happen, while the latter is more likely to happen first, even though syndicated HD is probably 2 or 3 years away, if not longer, for the locals.

Jarret or KirkTV can explain it better, I'm sure, but I know that it has to do with syndication. I just don't know the details of how syndication is handled locally.

uhf

02-20-09, 06:58 PM

Anyone else have the gear to do it for me?
- Trip
I don't have TSReader, unless there is a free or demo version that can do it. PM me if you need help. I'm off to Waterloo for a few hours so it will have to be later tonight or tomorrow sometime. Maybe someone else can help in the meantime.

Trip in VA

02-20-09, 07:13 PM

Thanks again!

Glad to have helped; no worries on the data. I'll live. =)

- Trip

Trip in VA

02-20-09, 07:46 PM

I don't have TSReader, unless there is a free or demo version that can do it. PM me if you need help. I'm off to Waterloo for a few hours so it will have to be later tonight or tomorrow sometime. Maybe someone else can help in the meantime.

Thanks! =)

There's a free version that will do what I need.

http://www.tsreader.com/tsreader/TSReaderLite2.8.46e.exe

Grab the instructions from my post to bagdropper. Though you might need to use a different driver depending on what hardware you have; I can tell you what driver you need if you tell me what hardware you have.

- Trip

ivorygate

02-20-09, 08:13 PM

Thanks! =)

There's a free version that will do what I need.

http://www.tsreader.com/tsreader/TSReaderLite2.8.46e.exe

Grab the instructions from my post to bagdropper. Though you might need to use a different driver depending on what hardware you have; I can tell you what driver you need if you tell me what hardware you have.

- Trip

I'll jump in here. I installed the app and ran it on my PC that has a DVICO Fusion5Gold ATSC tuner card. It looks like I grabbed the info you wanted. I'll send it to the e-mail address you specified in prior post.

Trip in VA

02-20-09, 08:14 PM

I'll jump in here. I installed the app and ran it on my PC that has a DVICO Fusion5Gold ATSC tuner card. It looks like I grabbed the info you wanted. I'll send it to the e-mail address you specified in prior post.

Thanks! :D

- Trip

ivorygate

02-20-09, 08:59 PM

Just to harp more about my prior post about Tribune guide data not yet reflecting that KWWL changed channel frequencies and thus TiVos and other devices no longer are able to associate guide data with KWWL, here is a very well written summary of the issue on another AVS thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15863026#post15863026

TiVos, DirecTV DVRs, Windows Media Center, and other products that use Tribune guide data work differently. Whenever they connect to download guide data, they download a regional channel list from Tribune that includes these mappings. The list from Tribune tells the TiVo that 9-1 is frequency 52. The TiVo uses the information on this list, not the information from the broadcaster's PSIP.

On the TiVoCommunity forum, there are still people trying to us that doing a channel scan is necessary, but that IS NOT TRUE. Yes, to actually tune in the KWWL-DT on channel 7, I had to do a channel scan, but since the guide data TiVo licenses from Tribune still associates KWWL with channel 55, although I can watch KWWL on channel 7 and do a *manual* recording of KWWL on channel 7, the whole point of having a TiVo is to do recordings based on scheduled programming (and season passes) and this functionality is broken, until someone can convince Tribune that they need to change that pesky "55" to "7" in their database.

Trip in VA

02-20-09, 09:03 PM

I don't have TSReader, unless there is a free or demo version that can do it. PM me if you need help. I'm off to Waterloo for a few hours so it will have to be later tonight or tomorrow sometime. Maybe someone else can help in the meantime.

ivorygate sent me the Cedar Rapids stations, but I still need KWKB and KIIN. Any chance you can receive those? Or anything else I'm missing? :)

- Trip

Trip in VA

02-20-09, 09:55 PM

Hey 4lids, I know you're probably extremely busy, but I'm attempting to update my listings now that I have data for Cedar Rapids. Do you guys have a stat muxer?

- Trip

hdtvincr

02-20-09, 10:01 PM

ivorygate sent me the Cedar Rapids stations, but I still need KWKB and KIIN. Any chance you can receive those? Or anything else I'm missing? :)

- Trip
Don't have time tonight, but I can throw some rabbit ears on the HDHomerun tomorrow evening and provide the OTA info that you want if someone else hasn't done so by then....

BTW... I'm running Vista 64 and TSReaderLite works OK for me using the fileloop.dll

Trip in VA

02-20-09, 10:10 PM

Don't have time tonight, but I can throw some rabbit ears on the HDHomerun tomorrow evening and provide the OTA info that you want if someone else hasn't done so by then....

BTW... I'm running Vista 64 and TSReaderLite works OK for me using the fileloop.dll

That's interesting. I know I had someone in Orlando try to run it on Vista 64 and couldn't manage to get it to work.

But absolutely, I'll take any additional data I can get. I've got most of the Cedar Rapids area stations up now: http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?mktid=108

Expand them and check it out. :)

- Trip

uhf

02-21-09, 12:08 AM

Thanks! =)

There's a free version that will do what I need.

http://www.tsreader.com/tsreader/TSReaderLite2.8.46e.exe

Grab the instructions from my post to bagdropper. Though you might need to use a different driver depending on what hardware you have; I can tell you what driver you need if you tell me what hardware you have.

- Trip

I have an ATI TV Wonder 650. tsreader does nothing when I try it, I'm guessing a different driver is needed.
It won't even let me try to change drivers. Uninstalling and re-installing brings back to the same window to enter a channel, but it does nothing.

Trip in VA

02-21-09, 12:17 AM

I have an ATI TV Wonder 650. tsreader does nothing when I try it, I'm guessing a different driver is needed.
It won't even let me try to change drivers. Uninstalling and re-installing brings back to the same window to enter a channel, but it does nothing.

Hold CTRL as you launch the program and it will request a different driver.

Try the ATSCBDASourceNS driver. My notes tell me that you chose the right driver, but the NS driver can resolve odd issues that pop up.

- Trip

uhf

02-21-09, 12:22 AM

nope, that one doesn't work either. This is the PCI version of th4 650 BTW.

Trip in VA

02-21-09, 12:27 AM

My notes tell me the ATSCBDASource driver is the right one. I don't see anything else it could be.

If it doesn't work, then no worries. I'll live. :)

- Trip

uhf

02-21-09, 12:46 AM

I can't get KWKB. FYI for KIIN- only change from KRIN is that the TSID and channel names change. Transport streams for all IPTV stations are sent out from the studio exactly the same, the PSIP info for name and TSID is changed at the transmitter by a Triveni StreamBridge.

hdtvincr

02-21-09, 01:20 PM

That's interesting. I know I had someone in Orlando try to run it on Vista 64 and couldn't manage to get it to work.
I sent an email with the info you wanted.

Hope that got all the info you need. Don't have the best reception with the rabbit ears....

Trip in VA

02-21-09, 01:24 PM

I sent an email with the info you wanted.

Hope that got all the info you need. Don't have the best reception with the rabbit ears....

Thanks! Looks great, they are perfect. :)

So now the only things I'm missing in this area are KWWF-22, which is not yet operating digitally, and KFXB-DT in Dubuque. Given the power level and height the station's currently using, I'd be surprised if anyone can see it, so I'm not going to worry myself over it.

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?mktid=108

:D

- Trip

Dark Rain

02-21-09, 01:35 PM

totally bizarre. agree with 2 - analog, but just so strange...KGAN-DT was the only network station my Apex box found, on first try. - using only VHF style rabbit ears.

that one bit alone could be used to demonstrate how spotty and unpredictable the transition to digital is. Here I sit with a setup that is a joke, and the only thing I can pickup is KGAN-DT. Somewhere else in town, Dark Rain is staring at a rig that has to blow mine away, yet KGAN is "a little weak."

good luck Jarret, uhf, and the other guys...you're gonna need it. :)

KGAN-DT had been worse for me prior to the transition. It almost appears like they cut power or I may just need a new antenna. My Samsung Plasma has a built-in LNA, so it helps get a better signal of around 10% or better. But, it can't perform miracles.

I was hoping that KGAN-DT were going to move to VHF because KWWL-DT is running near 100% now. I might try some antenna adjustments and will remove a splitter I have in-line to see what that does.

East Iowa 01234

02-21-09, 05:55 PM

Ok...........................just had my wife tell me the brother in law NE of New Hampton rescanned his RS converter which is hooked to the $50 RS rabbitears....................and can pick up everything in CR, Mason City, Rochester etc and he can pick up 7.2 & 7.3 but NOT 7.1 ?????????????

Any suggestions beside adjust the signal strength on 7.2 or 7.3 to the best possible (by adjusting the rabbit ears) and then rescanning? It really doesn't make much sense to me why two sub-channels will recognize but not the third.

He has a smal tube DTV with the RS rabbit ears in a north facing room........that will not pick up 7.x at all.....................(antenna work in the spring will take care of that) I am sure its too many walls in the way for the signal to reach. He can get everything else with that TV

hdtvincr

02-21-09, 07:37 PM

Not sure if this is your problem or not, but I did a simple rescan on the sets at work and had issues with them since they already had 7.1 programmed for 55.

The only way I could get them to see the new home for KWWL was to do a COMPLETE auto programming, and not just a simple scan for new channels.

CR_Client

02-21-09, 07:52 PM

Same issue someone else had, able to get 7.4 and 7.5, but not 7.1, 2, 3. Had to delete all old channels and re-scan to get the tuner to find the new 7.1, 2, and 3.

4lids

02-21-09, 08:26 PM

Hey 4lids, I know you're probably extremely busy, but I'm attempting to update my listings now that I have data for Cedar Rapids. Do you guys have a stat muxer?

- Trip

Not sure exactly what you looking for, but our Harmonic gear does some adaptive or stat muxing. That is a big reason why we can squeeze the two subchannels in there. The Harris flexicoder I used in La Crosse looked pretty awful on SD sources with less than 3 MB allocated to them. On the Harmonic gear, I have the subs on a range with 2.7 MB the average goal. I steal from them as required for the mothership (7.1) as required by having a low bottom figure on the range.

Although things are still crazy, we did find out some things. We figured out the tribune thing and I believed they pushed out an update yesterday. SO a rescan now hopefully corrects the problem on DirecTV and TIVO boxes. Still having lots of fun with indoor units. If any of you have antenna to recommend to people who insist on indoor units, I'm all ears. The only one I've played with decent success is the Winegard Sensor III (unamplified). My hope is that we'll be at our maximized power no later than when KCRG switches over, but with money as tight as it is, things are tough right now. We will be ordering another transmitter hopefully soon, but with a price tag of another quarter million, I'm not sure how soon that will happen. Hope everyone is having a bit better luck with us.
-Jarrett

KirkTV

02-21-09, 08:30 PM

Because they're Syndicated shows. They're not broadcast at the same time in all markets as when they're sent out by the networks.

A prime example is "Live! With Regis and Kelly", which is only live on the East Coast, taped at 9 AM EST. When they show it on KCRG at 9 AM CST, it's a non-HD version. I'm not sure if KCRG tapes it at 8 AM CST and then re-broadcasts, or what, as I'm not entirely sure how the syndication process works, but that's the long and short of it.

The View is broadcast by ABC at 11 AM EST, and thus is available in HD on KCRG.

Most of those shows actually say "In HD where available", not just "In HD".

Of course, the KCRG website has shown "2 1/2 Men" as HD (in red text, even) at its syndicated time slot after the news, but I haven't seen it in HD once at that time slot. I wish they would take that off of their website or broadcast it in HD. Unfortunately, the former is more likely to happen, while the latter is more likely to happen first, even though syndicated HD is probably 2 or 3 years away, if not longer, for the locals.

Jarret or KirkTV can explain it better, I'm sure, but I know that it has to do with syndication. I just don't know the details of how syndication is handled locally.

CR_Client,

You are exactly correct. Those are syndicated shows and are not played back live. Currently most of the local stations do not have the capability (a large capital investment) to time shift HD content that comes in, we can pass it though but can't capture or originate it locally yet. Something we are all excited for and want too do very much, but will have to wait until we have the funds to make the upgrades.

Thanks,

Kirk

KirkTV

02-21-09, 08:33 PM

Awhile back I saw someone wondering if KCRG would be full power digital when they convert, and I didn't see a reply from KirkTV. Their digital rig is built and running at full power into a dummy load, so it's good to go once they throw the switch.

Thanks UHF for answering that. We are indeed ready to go full power at 30 KW ERP in June. I certainly hope we have good results as planned. The tests have bene positive so far.

Kirk

tsduke

02-21-09, 09:15 PM

Not sure exactly what you looking for, but our Harmonic gear does some adaptive or stat muxing. That is a big reason why we can squeeze the two subchannels in there. The Harris flexicoder I used in La Crosse looked pretty awful on SD sources with less than 3 MB allocated to them. On the Harmonic gear, I have the subs on a range with 2.7 MB the average goal. I steal from them as required for the mothership (7.1) as required by having a low bottom figure on the range.

Although things are still crazy, we did find out some things. We figured out the tribune thing and I believed they pushed out an update yesterday. SO a rescan now hopefully corrects the problem on DirecTV and TIVO boxes. Still having lots of fun with indoor units. If any of you have antenna to recommend to people who insist on indoor units, I'm all ears. The only one I've played with decent success is the Winegard Sensor III (unamplified). My hope is that we'll be at our maximized power no later than when KCRG switches over, but with money as tight as it is, things are tough right now. We will be ordering another transmitter hopefully soon, but with a price tag of another quarter million, I'm not sure how soon that will happen. Hope everyone is having a bit better luck with us.
-Jarrett

I really don't understand why anyone who uses only OTA for tv would want to rely on an indoor antenna. Just doesn't make sense to me.