I saw this on another thread here and wanted a little feedback:

"The problem for me turned out to be my cable company Time Warner Cable. The PACE cable box supplied by TWC with an HDMI was bad. TWC knows ( They told me in person at the service desk ) the PACE boxes have troubles and still used them. The HDMI connection was bad.....I changed PACE boxes with TWC 4 times....all bad HDMI

Never use a cable box made by the same people that make Picate sauce.

I finally got a different cable box from them after many phone calls and arguments. It seems TWC does NOT support HDMI...only component connections even thou they provide you with boxes that have HDMI. If the HDMI works.....or not....they don't care much."


My main question is, why wouldn't TWC need to troubleshoot HDMI issues if the box had an HDMI connection? Is this something 'not covered' because I have a concern about my picture and am currently trying to isolate the cause of the problem.

Don't have a clue. They didnt have any manuals so I am figuring out how to use this. Don't see anything which would give this information.
Although the Samsung isn't a DVR, the new Digital Navigator in Nebraska looks like this:
http://www.timewarnercable.com/MediaLibrary/4/49/Content%20Management/Products%20And%20Services/images/mystro/conversion_guide.pdf
http://www.timewarnercable.com/nebraska/products/cable/mdn/mdn_dvr.html

Although we haven't seen it yet (maybe tomorrow???),
TWC-San Diego posted the following:
http://www.timewarnercable.com/sandiego/products/cable/navigatorintro.html

Although the Samsung isn't a DVR, the new Digital Navigator in Nebraska looks like this:

Although we haven't seen it yet (maybe tomorrow???),
TWC-San Diego posted the following:



If Navigator is that menu then yes it has it. The On Demand channels look exactly like that, as does the searchning, etc. One nice feature in the On Demand is that newly added shows have an orange dot next to them.

I did try to get a DVR also but they did not have any in.

Whats that Fantasy Football Tracker in one of the guides? :)

Noticed in the local NYC TWC thread that someone in the borough of Queens also picked up a Samsung STB (besides Staten Island, which while part of NYC TWC, is more of an independent system.)

Curious what advantages, if any, the Samsung has over the 8300HD, etc. Samsung users with HDNet access could estimate if PQ is better with the aid of HDNet's Saturday 6:30 am ET test pattern. This link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4664241#post4664241) outlines how to use the final four minutes (of 10) showing vertical resolution wedges to measure maximum effective horizontal resolution. There's a sublink showing HDNet's resolution-wedge image. Displays with known 1080p full resolution would serve best, but a 1366X768 display would serve if the STB max effective resolution was a typical ~1300 lines.

With 8300HDs, etc., most have reported a maximum of ~1300 lines effective resolution (with a full 1920X1080 format signal). Maybe the Samsung delivers significantly more, up to ~1920. Vegggas, who engineering tests STBs, has speculated that using multiple STB brands within cable TV systems requires memory within STBs that otherwise might be used for greater effective resolution. -- John

Noticed in the local NYC TWC thread that someone in the borough of Queens also picked up a Samsung STB (besides Staten Island, which while part of NYC TWC, is more of an independent system.)

Curious what advantages, if any, the Samsung has over the 8300HD, etc. Samsung users with HDNet access could estimate if PQ is better with the aid of HDNet's Saturday 6:30 am ET test pattern. This link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4664241#post4664241) outlines how to use the final four minutes (of 10) showing vertical resolution wedges to measure maximum effective horizontal resolution. There's a sublink showing HDNet's resolution-wedge image. Displays with known 1080p full resolution would serve best, but a 1366X768 display would serve if the STB max effective resolution was a typical ~1300 lines.

With 8300HDs, etc., most have reported a maximum of ~1300 lines effective resolution (with a full 1920X1080 format signal). Maybe the Samsung delivers significantly more, up to ~1920. Vegggas, who engineering tests STBs, has speculated that using multiple STB brands within cable TV systems requires memory within STBs that otherwise might be used for greater effective resolution. -- John

This is the thing that bothers me about STB's. Reportedly, they do not provide full resolution. People report over and over on the website that the picture is considerably better with cablecard than a STB. Running a signal through an electronic box is bound to have an effect of some sort.

What type of picture quality experience have the posters to this thread had with STB's?

What type of picture quality experience have the posters to this thread had with STB's?I've had a 8300HD DVR since the day they were available several years ago. I also have a Sony DVR (http://albanyhdtv.proboards18.com/index.cgi?board=boxes&action=display&thread=1139251100) that I have been using to receive/record my OTA broadcasts. (Until last year, there were a few local HD channels that were not available through TWC, but were available OTA)

The Sony DVR has a cablecard slot and last week I had a cablecard installed (June 27, 2007) so I could see what channels were or were not available once switched digital video was rolled out. What I surprisingly discovered was that the HD picture was noticeably crisper and sharper when watching TWC through my cablecard equipped Sony DVR than my 8300HD DVR. The HD picture quality on my Sony now rivals the uncompressed OTA broadcasts.

I've had an HDTV since October 2003 and the cablecard has provided me with the best picture available from TWC.

I've had a 8300HD DVR since the day they were available several years ago. I also have a Sony DVR (http://albanyhdtv.proboards18.com/index.cgi?board=boxes&action=display&thread=1139251100) that I have been using to receive/record my OTA broadcasts. (Until last year, there were a few local HD channels that were not available through TWC, but were available OTA)

The Sony DVR has a cablecard slot and last week I had a cablecard installed (June 27, 2007) so I could see what channels were or were not available once switched digital video was rolled out. What I surprisingly discovered was that the HD picture was noticeably crisper and sharper when watching TWC through my cablecard equipped Sony DVR than my 8300HD DVR. The HD picture quality on my Sony now rivals the uncompressed OTA broadcasts.

I've had an HDTV since October 2003 and the cablecard has provided me with the best picture available from TWC.Just as with the "component vs HDMI" debates, I think it all depends on many factors. The odds are that a CC in the set will usually be about the same as a 8300HD feeding the set via HDMI. But the odds are strongly in favor of the CC having a better picture than an 8300HD feeding the set via component. But there are exceptions: some digital displays have been known to convert HDMI to analog and later back to digital.

Another factor, may well be the adjustments for each of the inputs. If you don't make an effort to "match" the adjustments for the two, you may see differences just due to how the user adjustments are set.

Do you know what software it is running? (On the lookout for Navigator to be making a limited appearance).

My guess is that Nav will appear on the "new after 7/1" STBs without integrated security... i.e. cable box with a cable card. Others get to stick w/Passport. Complicating that is SDV, which SHOULD be a higher priority than OCAP, IMO.

Yes, but TW has said that they need to change from Passport (to Navigator) in order to get SDV.

If Navigator is that menu then yes it has it. The On Demand channels look exactly like that, as does the searchning, etc. One nice feature in the On Demand is that newly added shows have an orange dot next to them.

I did try to get a DVR also but they did not have any in.

Whats that Fantasy Football Tracker in one of the guides? :)
Congratulations.....and welcome to being a beta (gamma?) tester for OCAP
with Digital Navigator "Middleware" in a Samsung HD-STB.

Fantasy Football Tracker is a two-way INTERACTIVE application to explore new ways
for customers to interact with their "television"....and eventually generate more fees:
http://www.cable360.net/ct/video/21014.html
http://www.timewarnercable.com/InvestorRelations/PressReleases/TWCPressReleaseDetail.ashx?PRID=1346&MarketID=0
http://www.timewarnercable.com/sanantonio/products/cable/itv/fantasyfootballtracker.html

TWC-San Diego has had Interactive News (usually via menus), Games and
On-line Bill Payment for quite awhile....
but it's been extremely slow and buggy, buggy, buggy.

Let us know how well the next generation INTERACTIVE system works....
Don't you also have INTERACTIVE access to News, Weather, Stock Prices,
TWC Bill Paying and maybe Sports.....

================================
I saw a report TWC-Staten Island (like TWC-Hawaii) had the new PHOTOSHOW-TV feature:
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6360698.html
http://www.oceanic.com/OceanicWebApps/Internet/RoadRunner/PhotoShow.html

Perhaps you'll let us know what it's like going through the TWC Censor Committee....

===============================
Can you "see" what software type/version is being used?
Most TWC systems have a channel (usually very high number) that displays this info....

Extended Diagnostic entry for Samsung is unknown, but might be same as SARA:
http://www.dslreports.com/faq/11880
If this doesn't work, try holding down two front panel keys at the same time.
[Hint: Samsung H10 (DirecTV) diagnostic entry keys are ACTIVE and RIGHT ARROW.]

Congratulations.....and welcome to being a beta (gamma?) tester for OCAP
with Digital Navigator "Middleware" in a Samsung HD-STB.

Fantasy Football Tracker is a two-way INTERACTIVE application to explore new ways
for customers to interact with their "television"....and eventually generate more fees:


This doesnt seem to be available. Perhaps when the season begins.


TWC-San Diego has had Interactive News (usually via menus), Games and
On-line Bill Payment for quite awhile....
but it's been extremely slow and buggy, buggy, buggy.

Let us know how well the next generation INTERACTIVE system works....
Don't you also have INTERACTIVE access to News, Weather, Stock Prices,
TWC Bill Paying and maybe Sports.....


We do not have any interactive items. Or if there are, I cannot find them. Looked through all the channels and menus but do not see anything. Cable is really behind. I forgot about it but Satellite had this available years ago.


I saw a report TWC-Staten Island (like TWC-Hawaii) had the new PHOTOSHOW-TV feature:
Perhaps you'll let us know what it's like going through the TWC Censor Committee....


Channel is there but says "unavailable at this time"


Can you "see" what software type/version is being used?
Most TWC systems have a channel (usually very high number) that displays this info....


Channel is there but there is nothing on it. Just a blank white screen.

Sorry I can't be more helpful.

No, thank you....we're all curious as to what's coming on-line....
Let us know whether it's usable on a daily basis....and what bugs you the most...

Seems TWC takes a shotgun approach to software roll-out....SDV in a few cities,
pieces of OCAP/Navigator somewhere else, some INTERACTIVE features
in Lincoln, ND and next gen VOD & PHOTOSHOW in Hawaii.

Can you imagine a major software developer taking such an approach?????
Such as bits and pieces of Office2007 released throughout the country, but no one with everything....
Which, of course, also begs the question of why MS has so many Vista releases....

============================
PS: Could we encourage you to click on "USER CP" at top of page and "EDIT PROFILE"
so that we know your location, equipment and OCAP with Navigator status.

This is the thing that bothers me about STB's. Reportedly, they do not provide full resolution. People report over and over on the website that the picture is considerably better with cablecard than a STB. Running a signal through an electronic box is bound to have an effect of some sort.

What type of picture quality experience have the posters to this thread had with STB's?
This far along into CableCArd (CC) use, with reports of improved PQ, it's surprising no one has tested and reported HDNet's pattern for effective resolution--a firm resolution number. With both a STB and CC you could make a direct comparison, although without DVR etc. capture it would require comparing the patterns (technique in my post above) early in the morning (currently, Saturdays at 6:30 am ET; search titles for "test" at schedules within HD.net).

Following a report (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10710973&&#post10710973) of ~1333-line effective resolution from a Version FIOS STB, and within subsequent posts, I provided links to other posts about ~1300-line (effective, not format) resolution from HDNet on TWC, plus one report of >1900 lines. Also mentioned an early report about nearly full (1920) resolution from a pre-HDLite-use DirecTV STB. -- John

No, thank you....we're all curious as to what's coming on-line....
Let us know whether it's usable on a daily basis....and what bugs you the most...

Seems TWC takes a shotgun approach to software roll-out....SDV in a few cities,
pieces of OCAP/Navigator somewhere else, some INTERACTIVE features
in Lincoln, ND and next gen VOD & PHOTOSHOW in Hawaii.

Can you imagine a major software developer taking such an approach?????
Such as bits and pieces of Office2007 released throughout the country, but no one with everything....
Which, of course, also begs the question of why MS has so many Vista releases....

============================
PS: Could we encourage you to click on "USER CP" at top of page and "EDIT PROFILE"
so that we know your location, equipment and OCAP with Navigator status.

I have a 32" Sony LCD (KDL32XBR4). Just got the tv so it was never connected to the old box I had. I am connecting to the Samsung box via HDMI.

At times the menu on this box is slow. For example, you can bring up a listing of all sports currently on, hd shows currently on, etc. This takes an incredibly long time to load. Also, when viewing something On Demand, the guide does not function. Sometimes when turning the box on there is no audio. You need to turn it off and back on. I think this has to do with trying to change the channel before the picture appears. Those are just a few things I have noticed.

Just read that it looks like on August 7, Time Warner Cable Cincinnati will be getting ESPN2HD and ESPNU along with other linup changes.

Just read that it looks like on August 7, Time Warner Cable Cincinnati will be getting ESPN2HD and ESPNU along with other linup changes.


This is great news. Hopefully Dayton will be getting it also. Just in time for College football season!!!!!

This far along into CableCArd (CC) use, with reports of improved PQ, it's surprising no one has tested and reported HDNet's pattern for effective resolution--a firm resolution number. With both a STB and CC you could make a direct comparison, although without DVR etc. capture it would require comparing the patterns (technique in my post above) early in the morning (currently, Saturdays at 6:30 am ET; search titles for "test" at schedules within HD.net).

Following a report (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10710973&&#post10710973) of ~1333-line effective resolution from a Version FIOS STB, and within subsequent posts, I provided links to other posts about ~1300-line (effective, not format) resolution from HDNet on TWC, plus one report of >1900 lines. Also mentioned an early report about nearly full (1920) resolution from a pre-HDLite-use DirecTV STB. -- JohnPerhaps if Time Warner provided something newer than a three-year-old SA8300, a TV equipped w/external tuner could achieve resolution closer to a display with a direct digital connection?

Just read that it looks like on August 7, Time Warner Cable Cincinnati will be getting ESPN2HD and ESPNU along with other linup changes.


Can you post a link?

It was in the July monthly Time Warner magazine page 14 at the top of the page (not the channel guide mag) that show up coming events and movies for southwest Ohio. I believe I recieved it last week but just looked at it this morning.

Perhaps if Time Warner provided something newer than a three-year-old SA8300, a TV equipped w/external tuner could achieve resolution closer to a display with a direct digital connection?

As far as I know the 8300 can pass anything sent down the system and is virtually transparent with an HDMI link?

Not sure what point you are trying to make?

Just read that it looks like on August 7, Time Warner Cable Cincinnati will be getting ESPN2HD and ESPNU along with other linup changes.

I hope it's true

Perhaps if Time Warner provided something newer than a three-year-old SA8300, a TV equipped w/external tuner could achieve resolution closer to a display with a direct digital connection?


Dont blame TWC for that, Blame SA or another company... TWC has nothing to do with new boxes and etc, not their industry, so stop blaming TWC for not having new boxes!!

As far as I know the 8300 can pass anything sent down the system and is virtually transparent with an HDMI link?

Not sure what point you are trying to make?
HDNet's Saturday 6:30 am (ET) test pattern is (presumably) 1920X1080i format (and effective) resolution. Try viewing it with a 1920X1080 or 1366X768, etc. display and see if your TWC STB (and/or cable system) delivers ~1920X1080 lines effective resolution or closer to a ~1300-line maximum effective horizontal resolution (HDMI or YPbPr). Use the lines/picture height to lines/picture width conversion technique outlined here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5175424#post5175424). -- John

Use the lines/picture height to lines/picture width conversion technique outlined here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4664241#post4664241). -- JohnLink is broken.

Link is broken.
Thanks. Fixed it. -- John

Thanks. I'd like to compare resolutions between my 8300HD DVR and my Sony DVR w/ cablecard.

HDNet's Saturday 6:30 am (ET) test pattern is (presumably) 1920X1080i format (and effective) resolution. Try viewing it with a 1920X1080 or 1366X768, etc. display and see if your TWC STB (and/or cable system) delivers ~1920X1080 lines effective resolution or closer to a ~1300-line maximum effective horizontal resolution (HDMI or YPbPr). Use the lines/picture height to lines/picture width conversion technique outlined here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5175424#post5175424). -- John

Specifications on the 8300:
1920x1080i 1280x720p 720x480p 60hz

http://www.sciatl.com/customers/Source/7008360.pdf

Specifications on the 8300:
1920x1080i 1280x720p 720x480p 60hz

http://www.sciatl.com/customers/Source/7008360.pdfYes, but that doesn't talk about performance - particularly with the component outputs. Also, there is the question of what cable may do to limit resolution. There is a lot of discussion of that and about the only way to get an independent handle of that is the HDNet resolution patterns that John talks about.

My problem with this discussion is that people report the resolution that they observe on many different sets with many different user settings. The resolution reported could be just as much dependent on those factors than anything that TW (or the 8300) may do.

Yes, but that doesn't talk about performance - particularly with the component outputs. Also, there is the question of what cable may do to limit resolution. There is a lot of discussion of that and about the only way to get an independent handle of that is the HDNet resolution patterns that John talks about.

My problem with this discussion is that people report the resolution that they observe on many different sets with many different user settings. The resolution reported could be just as much dependent on those factors than anything that TW (or the 8300) may do.

I was just addressing the complaint about the box being 3 years old which, somehow, was supposed to be part of the problem. My contention is that the box is fully capable of delivering as good a signal as the cable company puts down the line. Particulary when hooked up to the HDMI output. Should be fairly transparent in full digital mode.

I was just addressing the complaint about the box being 3 years old which, somehow, was supposed to be part of the problem. My contention is that the box is fully capable of delivering as good a signal as the cable company puts down the line. Particulary when hooked up to the HDMI output. Should be fairly transparent in full digital mode.Gottcha. I agree with that on the HDMI out. The poster of the "3 year old" comment is a habitual TW basher.

Dont blame TWC for that, Blame SA or another company... TWC has nothing to do with new boxes and etc, not their industry, so stop blaming TWC for not having new boxes!!(?)

Let’s see... the only 2-way DVR I can purchase or rent and connect to Time Warner's Cable system is an SA8300 from... that's right you guessed it... Time Warner!

Who else should I blame... the Tooth Fairy? :p

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzequg9f/tooth-fairy.JPG

(?)

Let’s see... the only 2-way DVR I can purchase or rent and connect to Time Warner's Cable system is an SA8300 from... that's right you guessed it... Time Warner!

Who else should I blame... the Tooth Fairy? :p

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzequg9f/tooth-fairy.JPG

First off you cant purchase a HD DVR from TWC only rent, and 2nd, its the only box that SA makes that is current! TWC provides the box on behalf of SA, but SA makes the box and is the one to complain about the "OLD" SA8300. Thats who you blame, SA not TWC! Try the tooth fairy, maybe he might leave you some money?!!

First off you cant purchase a HD DVR from TWC only rent, and 2nd, its the only box that SA makes that is current! TWC provides the box on behalf of SA, but SA makes the box and is the one to complain about the "OLD" SA8300. Thats who you blame, SA not TWC! Try the tooth fairy, maybe he might leave you some money?!!Remember cableguy that his goal is mostly to bash TW! :rolleyes:

But, I do understand a little bit of (but, not all) his complaint. First he thinks the SA8300 is crappy (as if the DVRs offered by other cable companies were better - NOT) and is complaining that he can't PURCHASE a 2-way DVR from BB or somewhere that he can use with the cable system (TW) where he lives. He obviously is STUCK with TW (can't go to a dish) because he is in an apartment, has too many trees or something.

[QUOTE=optivity](?)

Let’s see... the only 2-way DVR I can purchase or rent and connect to Time Warner's Cable system is an SA8300 from... that's right you guessed it... Time Warner!

Who else should I blame... the Tooth Fairy? :p


Just a question. Are you getting anything out of this discussion group?

If I get a new Time Warner box tomorrow, what is the model and outputs?

I will post here with a little bit of apprehension (I don't post much anymore, just lurk). Last time I posted this info it was received with much skepticism. I am a former ISF calibrator (I don't do it anymore for $$$) who used to be a regular contributor to the rear projector forum. I have had HD since 2000 and have owned a multitude of displays and multiple service providers over the years (D*, E*, V*, Comcast, Mediacom, Charter, and now TWC). I have archived a vast amount of footage over the years via DVHS.

My current display is a Sony 60" XBR1 SXRD. I have an LG LST-3410 HD DVR (DVI), SA8300HD DVR, and JVC 30k & 5U DVHS VCRs. In addition to the 720p and 1080i Digital Video Essentials DVHS tapes I have the HDNet test patterns archived on DVHS and the LG from years ago on Mediacom (full bitrate). I also have the HDNet patterns on DVHS (recorded via CableCard) and the 8300 from TWC.

There is no difference between the Mediacom HDnet test patterns and the TWC test patterns on my display (I tested every HD connection available from each source: Component, DVI, HDMI). There are some slight differences in frequency response via the different connection types (component exhibiting more high-frequency rolloff as expected and DVI from the LG actually having slightly better frequency response than HDMI or CC). All 1920 lines are resolved on the SXRD, even on component from the 8300 (despite the high-frequency rolloff).

This doesn't tell the entire story though as the HDNet pattern is simply a static pattern. All this means is that the 8300 output resolution is not filtered (in my setup/testing, YMMV). HD in motion is where it really counts. Because I do not have any moving HD test patterns, I can only give my subjected opinion with program material. I believe the MPEG decoder in the SA8300 is inferior to that in my Sony TV and the LG DVR. My local TWC rate shapes aggressively (which the JVC 30k will not even display/record properly). The MPEG artifacts are much more noticeable on the 8300 than via CableCard or the LG. It is also possible that there is resolution filtering being applied by the 8300 MPEG decoder. I never noticed a difference between the Motorola 6412 DVR and the JVC 30k MPEG decoder but Comcast and Mediacom were not rate shaping like TWC is. I believe the differences in MPEG decoding is why many experience better PQ with CC over the 8300. I prefer the 8300 over CC with my Sony TV because of the convenience factor of the DVR (which is why I returned the CC). I am able to view/record the 8300 programming via firewire on the Sony or JVC 5U giving me the same PQ as CC (to my eyes).

This is all just my subjective evaluation and opinion so your testing may differ (I would love to see the results of someone performing similar testing). If everyone feels my results are invalid and not a positive contribution, I will be glad to delete this post.

Hmmm....so you're saying the static resolution is essentially the same no matter what????

I actually prefer the PQ from the Component Video I/F on my JVC "40K" DVHS.
The resolution may be slightly softer than HDMI from SA8300HD, but it has
a superior "contrast ratio" for both HD and SD programs.

Q: Did you modify your JVC "30K" DVHS with the DIY "bandwidth fix" ???

Just to make everything "perfectly clear"....playing back a DVHS tape
(an MPEG2 file obtained via Firewire I/F) only exercises the DVHS's internal MPEG2
decoder and output I/F to HDTV.....except when an HDTV plays back via Firewire I/F.

So most users would have to get up in the middle of the night to actually watch it
in real time to assess the STB/DVR/HDTV resolution, rather than simply
playing back a DVHS tape.
[Unless the HDTV had the ability to play back via Firewire I/F.]

I believe the MPEG decoder in the SA8300 is inferior to that in my Sony TV and the LG DVR. My local TWC rate shapes aggressively (which the JVC 30k will not even display/record properly). The MPEG artifacts are much more noticeable on the 8300 than via CableCard or the LG. It is also possible that there is resolution filtering being applied by the 8300 MPEG decoder. I never noticed a difference between the Motorola 6412 DVR and the JVC 30k MPEG decoder but Comcast and Mediacom were not rate shaping like TWC is. I believe the differences in MPEG decoding is why many experience better PQ with CC over the 8300. I prefer the 8300 over CC with my Sony TV because of the convenience factor of the DVR (which is why I returned the CC). I am able to view/record the 8300 programming via firewire on the Sony or JVC 5U giving me the same PQ as CC (to my eyes). Although your explanation makes perfect sense, and even though this is supposed to be an A/V Science Forum, I'm afraid the technical nuances are lost with the Time Warner fan-boys (e.g. cableguy101 & Mr. Hancock).

"What's So Special About CableCARD?

Well for starters, if you move you simply relinquish the CableCARD to your cable provider and then pick up a new one once you reach your destination. You do not have to relinquish an entire cable box and relearn, reprogram and refrustrate yourself with a whole new unit (possibly of lesser quality) at your destination. Plus, that's one less box needed in your home theater/living room. But this is only a small advantage in my book.

The HUGE advantage comes in the picture quality. For those of you under the impression that the local cable company cares about quality and such things as accurate scaling, you are sorely mistaken. Local cable companies charge a small monthly fee (and usually no installation fee) for those utilizing their equipment. What this means is that they are concerned about features but certainly not about quality, since most of their customers are not aware of what they are missing.

CableCARDs allow the user to decrypt digital cable and use higher quality components to handle scaling and display of the cable channels. Mitsubishi showed off two televisions displaying standard definition cable channels side by side at the 2004 CEDIA Expo. One unit was displaying digital cable via a provided set-top box, the other was using CableCARD. The difference was astounding. The Mitsubishi's integrated scaler was of so much higher quality then the one provided by the cheap set-top cable box that clarity was improved, ghosting was dramatically reduced and (real) edge detail was preserved - so much so, that I wondered how I was conned into thinking that it was simply broadcast that way to begin with. THIS is why CableCARD is such a significant development.

The units that support CableCARD also support reception of analogue HDTV signals via antenna, so be sure to get most of your over-the-air HDTV using that method whenever possible as it will far exceed the quality of compressed cable programming (http://www.audioholics.com/education/display-formats-technology/cablecards-a-primer)."

Although your explanation makes perfect sense, and even though this is supposed to be an A/V Science Forum, I'm afraid the technical nuances are lost with the Time Warner fan-boys (e.g. cableguy101 & Mr. Hancock).

"What's So Special About CableCARD?

Well for starters, if you move you simply relinquish the CableCARD to your cable provider and then pick up a new one once you reach your destination. You do not have to relinquish an entire cable box and relearn, reprogram and refrustrate yourself with a whole new unit (possibly of lesser quality) at your destination. Plus, that's one less box needed in your home theater/living room. But this is only a small advantage in my book.

The HUGE advantage comes in the picture quality. For those of you under the impression that the local cable company cares about quality and such things as accurate scaling, you are sorely mistaken. Local cable companies charge a small monthly fee (and usually no installation fee) for those utilizing their equipment. What this means is that they are concerned about features but certainly not about quality, since most of their customers are not aware of what they are missing.

CableCARDs allow the user to decrypt digital cable and use higher quality components to handle scaling and display of the cable channels. Mitsubishi showed off two televisions displaying standard definition cable channels side by side at the 2004 CEDIA Expo. One unit was displaying digital cable via a provided set-top box, the other was using CableCARD. The difference was astounding. The Mitsubishi's integrated scaler was of so much higher quality then the one provided by the cheap set-top cable box that clarity was improved, ghosting was dramatically reduced and (real) edge detail was preserved - so much so, that I wondered how I was conned into thinking that it was simply broadcast that way to begin with. THIS is why CableCARD is such a significant development.

The units that support CableCARD also support reception of analogue HDTV signals via antenna, so be sure to get most of your over-the-air HDTV using that method whenever possible as it will far exceed the quality of compressed cable programming (http://www.audioholics.com/education/display-formats-technology/cablecards-a-primer)."

I have been reading and posting to the AVS Forum for 3 years. In that time, I don't think I have ever seen anyone deny that the HD picture was better with cablecard than with the box. When you don't get so much as a single argument on a discussion board, you can figure that the claim is pretty darn accurate. It's such a darn shame that cablecard isn't there for everyone.

I have been reading and posting to the AVS Forum for 3 years. In that time, I don't think I have ever seen anyone deny that the HD picture was better with cablecard than with the box. When you don't get so much as a single argument on a discussion board, you can figure that the claim is pretty darn accurate. It's such a darn shame that cablecard isn't there for everyone.The point I made earlier is that there a lot of variables that make claims (one way or the other) difficult to evaluate.

However, in a digital world, it does make sense that CableCards will not have HD PQ Poorer than a cable box. But, that does necessarily make CCs better either.

It is interesting to note that the Audioholics post is: 1) Dated (3 years old! :D ) 2) PQ statements made are in regards to SD images in a "rigged" manufacturer's demo that is basically pitting Mitsubishi's internal scaler against an unidentified cable boxe's scaler (it likely was the SA8000HD - which really was bad at scaling). We are talking about HD here aren't we.

This is an exceptionally good recent article that applies to what we are discussing.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/media/2007-06-28-cable-boxes-usat_N.htm?csp=34

This is an exceptionally good recent article that applies to what we are discussing.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/media/2007-06-28-cable-boxes-usat_N.htm?csp=34
Well it is (mostly) good (MUCH better than most, in fact), but it still continues on with a common misunderstanding:One-way vs. two-way service

Cable companies also are quick to note that while CableCards allow users to watch the cable TV channels, their one-way design does not allow more cable such as ordering video-on-demand, or VOD.
You might want to check out this AVS posting (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10931827&&#post10931827)
The little known fact is that even the old CableCards would support 2-way communication. From the CableLabs CableCard Primer :
Quote:
From the very early specifications and draft standards, the CableCARD module has been a two-way device.
But, for various reasons, 2 way communications were never built into any consumer supplied equipment so 2-way has never been supported with the version 1 CC (and, so far, not the version 2 either).

BTW: I thought what we were discussing was PQ of CC vs Cable boxes. The article says nothing about that (but would you really trust USA Today for comments on PQ?)

Does Time Warner Cable have plans to provide a HD DVR with a two-way CableCARD (http://informitv.com/articles/2007/07/01/cablecardopenscable/)slot to its subscribers any time soon? :confused:

informitv (http://informitv.com/consultancy/) ;)

I have been reading and posting to the AVS Forum for 3 years. In that time, I don't think I have ever seen anyone deny that the HD picture was better with cablecard than with the box. When you don't get so much as a single argument on a discussion board, you can figure that the claim is pretty darn accurate. It's such a darn shame that cablecard isn't there for everyone.

Well, even if the PQ is of higher quality with CableCard, would that compel people to relinquish use of a DVR? Most of us have become totally addicted to them (I have two SA8300's in my system). Or, would we then use TiVo Series 3 for that function - all channels being decrypted by the Card and available for recording? Don't think there are any other products available (and currently being manufactured) that would do the trick, excluding the exclusive HTPC market. And I didn't pay $600 apiece for those 8300's either.

Does Time Warner Cable have plans to provide a HD DVR with a two-way CableCARD (http://informitv.com/articles/2007/07/01/cablecardopenscable/)slot to its subscribers any time soon? :confused:

informitv (http://informitv.com/consultancy/) ;)
Eventually, and i'm sure they'll want fifty bones a month to "provide" it to you! :rolleyes:
Cable Operators to Hike Set-Top Box Rates (http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070704/cable_boxes_rates.html?.v=3)

One thing that frustrates me is the fact that all the fines/taxes levied on the cable co's for dragging ass on the integration ban will just be passed on to the customer, which would be great except for the millions of people who don't/can't switch to a DBS because of bad line of sight, and don't have access to FiosTV or something similar. If set-top-box development progressed in ways similar to other consumer electronics, STB's should be twice as powerful and sell for half the current price within a year or two, but i'm pretty sure the cable companies will keep this from happening

This is an exceptionally good recent article that applies to what we are discussing.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/media/2007-06-28-cable-boxes-usat_N.htm?csp=34
There is another common misunderstanding in that article.
Nothing has to change for the 58% of cable subscribers with the old boxes. The FCC rule applies only to new installations or upgrades.
Actually the rule has nothing to do with new installations or upgrades. The rule basically states that a box with integrated security cannot be deployed unless that box was deployed at least once before July 1st.

There is another common misunderstanding in that article.

Actually the rule has nothing to do with new installations or upgrades. The rule basically states that a box with integrated security cannot be deployed unless that box was deployed at least once before July 1st.

In other words, all NEW boxes that the cable company deploys after 7/1 must meet the new requirement. ........... Right?

There is another common misunderstanding in that article.
Quote:
Nothing has to change for the 58% of cable subscribers with the old boxes. The FCC rule applies only to new installations or upgrades.

Actually the rule has nothing to do with new installations or upgrades. The rule basically states that a box with integrated security cannot be deployed unless that box was deployed at least once before July 1st.

In other words, all NEW boxes that the cable company deploys after 7/1 must meet the new requirement. ........... Right?

Just different ways of saying the same thing.

1) Nothing happens with customers that currently have cable boxes - unless they "upgrade"

2) Even then, the cable companies can still "recycle" old boxes that have integrated security.

Just different ways of saying the same thing.

1) Nothing happens with customers that currently have cable boxes - unless they "upgrade"

2) Even then, the cable companies can still "recycle" old boxes that have integrated security.

It would seem that cable companies will redeploy old (previously used) boxes unless the customer knows enough to ask for a new, unused box. Redeploying old boxes will both avoid the purchase of some number of new boxes and will keep in the field the kind of boxes that do what the company really wants them to do .......................... MAKE MONEY!

Most people just accept whatever the cable company does.

1) Nothing happens with customers that currently have cable boxes - unless they "upgrade"
The reason for deploying a box can be upgrade, downgrade, replacement, adding a box, or any other reason. The reason doesn't matter as far as the rule is concerned.
It would seem that cable companies will redeploy old (previously used) boxes unless the customer knows enough to ask for a new, unused box.
You can ask for an unused box, but they might give you a used one anyway. :)

It would seem that cable companies will redeploy old (previously used) boxes unless the customer knows enough to ask for a new, unused box. Redeploying old boxes will both avoid the purchase of some number of new boxes and will keep in the field the kind of boxes that do what the company really wants them to do .......................... MAKE MONEY!

Most people just accept whatever the cable company does.Precisely, as long as subscribers are willing to settle for less and continue to rent the aging SA8300, cable providers have no compelling reason to release new equipment... which heaven forbid... include better components and more features. Hopefully some of the smaller start-ups (e.g. OPPO Digital Inc.) will get into the STB w/two-way CableCARD slot business.

Precisely, as long as subscribers are willing to settle for less and continue to rent the aging SA8300, cable providers have no compelling reason to release new equipment... which heaven forbid... include better components and more features. Hopefully some of the smaller start-ups (e.g. OPPO Digital Inc.) will get into the STB w/two-way CableCARD slot business.

If a set-top box cost a cable company $300 and they change an effective rate of around $6 month, it takes four years to pay for the box.

Now, are you willing to pay $25/month for the box so that the cable company can update their technology every year.

Didn't think so......................... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

If a set-top box cost a cable company $300 and they change an effective rate of around $6 month, it takes four years to pay for the box.

Now, are you willing to pay $25/month for the box so that the cable company can update their technology every year.

Didn't think so......................... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:Dude... the "real" cost to rent an SA8300HD DVR from Albany Time Warner is currently $17.90 per month (*36 months = $644.40) + tax.

And yes... since I can afford a $5000 TV I'd be willing to pay the $25 per month for a quality STB if justified.

Your funny math on the STB cost aside that puts you in the vast minority of those willing to pay extra for a TIVO-like TWC STB so don't count on it. And don't call me dude. :eek:

Dude... the "real" cost to rent an SA8300HD DVR from Albany Time Warner is currently $17.90 per month (*36 months = $644.40) + tax.

And yes... since I can afford a $5000 TV I'd be willing to pay the $25 per month for a quality STB if justified.

In your market (Albany) the a la carte cost to rent an HD DVR is $7.95 (including the remote). The revenue associated with DVR service, and digital cable service ARE NOT applied against the amortization of the set-top box.

From an accounting standpoint, the box is a capital asset, and must be handled accordingly by the accountants.

For years, HBO claimed that they were entitled to a portion of set top revenue (half) if a set top was required to access their service. They backed off after cable operators showed that gateway devices were common to multiple services and not unique to a specific service.

The set-top is a gateway device, and it's effective cost is $7.95/month period.

And has been stated over and over, cable operators don't build boxes, Scientific Atlanta and Motorola build boxes, and just like Detroit, they have product life cycles that dictate how often products are totally overhauled.

In your market (Albany) the a la carte cost to rent an HD DVR is $7.95 (including the remote). The revenue associated with DVR service, and digital cable service ARE NOT applied against the amortization of the set-top box.

From an accounting standpoint, the box is a capital asset, and must be handled accordingly by the accountants.

For years, HBO claimed that they were entitled to a portion of set top revenue (half) if a set top was required to access their service. They backed off after cable operators showed that gateway devices were common to multiple services and not unique to a specific service.

The set-top is a gateway device, and it's effective cost is $7.95/month period.

And has been stated over and over, cable operators don't build boxes, Scientific Atlanta and Motorola build boxes, and just like Detroit, they have product life cycles that dictate how often products are totally overhauled.Thanks for your clarification. However, I doubt if that will make any difference to that particular poster as it appears from his posting history that his primary purpose is to blast TW - even to a religious ferver.

Like anyone is going to rent an HD DVR from Time Warner & not subscribe to the service. :rolleyes: Get real.

Now, are you willing to pay $25/month for the box so that the cable company can update their technology every year.
Definitely!

Like anyone is going to rent an HD DVR from Time Warner & not subscribe to the service. :rolleyes: Get real.

Probably not. Didn't say anyone would. I just said they could.

And that's why one can't say the box costs $17.90/month. The portion of the revenue for DVR service is used against expenses incurred to support delivery of DVR service exclusive of the premisis equipment.

Perhaps if some had taken Accounting 101 these wouldn't be such difficult concepts to understand. :rolleyes:

The reason for deploying a box can be upgrade, downgrade, replacement, adding a box, or any other reason. The reason doesn't matter as far as the rule is concerned.

You can ask for an unused box, but they might give you a used one anyway. :)

But, then, you can demand that the old box perform to the new standards and it will not. Result: new box.

But, then, you can demand that the old box perform to the new standards and it will not. Result: new box.But both the old (integrated security) and new (non-integrated security) have the same level of performance and customer level features, so what would be the basis of this demand?

Basically, they (cable) is selling a service, the particular box that they provide (even if they charge you rent) is their choice, not the customer's. Now, if they advertise some features for a service that one buys, and one doesn't get those features with the particular box that is provided, then one ought to have every right that they provide a box that delivers the advertised features.

But, then, you can demand that the old box perform to the new standards and it will not. Result: new box.
Even if you make that demand, they are not legally required to provide a new box.

Anyway, you might improve your chances at getting a new box if you ask for a box with Firewire, since those boxes tend to be newer and scarcer, and they are legally required to provide a box with Firewire if you ask for one.

But both the old (integrated security) and new (non-integrated security) have the same level of performance and customer level features, so what would be the basis of this demand?What will generate demand among digital cable subscribers like me, who are interested in having additional choices of non proprietary CATV compatible equipment to rent or buy, is the FCC mandates it. ;)

"The FCC also swatted down the NCTA’s assertion that CableCARD-based set-tops would only end up costing consumers more, and that the cable industry should be allowed to wait until less-expensive downloadable security technologies are commercially available.

“We do not believe … that the NCTA should be able to shield itself from the clear directives in the commission’s rules …by continuing to assert that a better approach is on the ever-expanding horizon"

Anyway, you might improve your chances at getting a new box if you ask for a box with Firewire, since those boxes tend to be newer and scarcer, and they are legally required to provide a box with Firewire if you ask for one.

Firewire has been functionally disabled at the firmware level on the SA boxes available from TWC. Oh, they'll give you a box with firewire, but they're not required to make it work properly. The FCC "mandate" means nothing to them. I know. I've tried. Repeatedly.

Firewire has been functionally disabled at the firmware level on the SA boxes available from TWC. Oh, they'll give you a box with firewire, but they're not required to make it work properly. The FCC "mandate" means nothing to them. I know. I've tried. Repeatedly.The following is from FCC Regulations Part 76.640 (http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/09nov20051500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/pdf/47cfr76.640.pdf):

(4) Cable operators shall:
(i) Effective April 1, 2004, upon request
of a customer, replace any leased
high definition set-top box, which does
not include a functional IEEE 1394
interface, with one that includes a
functional IEEE 1394 interface or upgrade
the customer’s set-top box by
download or other means to ensure
that the IEEE 1394 interface is functional.

Now, it may be that the people you talk to are not aware of the company's legal obligation to provide a functional Firewire STB, but I suspect that if you persist in elevating the issue to someone who has a broader understanding than the typical script reading CSR that you might get some place. However, the box that they provide may not be the one that you want (may well be a recycled SA3250HD or something).

If my cable provider offered a:

Explorer 8300C/8300HDC DVR w/M-Card Interface (http://www.sciatl.com/customers/Source/7008360.pdf)

I'd rent one today! :D

Even if you make that demand, they are not legally required to provide a new box.

Anyway, you might improve your chances at getting a new box if you ask for a box with Firewire, since those boxes tend to be newer and scarcer, and they are legally required to provide a box with Firewire if you ask for one.

You are correct. They could give you an old box that uses cablecard, but they don't have any. The new boxes are mandated for the purpose of advancing cablecard. Demand cablecard and be denied, if necessary. Then, report to the FCC that the cable company will not provide a cablecard box for upgrading purposes.

The FCC has persisted for a long time in their support and requirement for cablecard.

Forgive me if I am being obtuse, but I don't get how I would benefit from renting a STB from cable that has a cable card in it vs. getting a standard STB. Is newer simply better? Looking at the PDF for the new SA8300 above with cable card support, I don't see any real benefit over the non CC SA8300 I get now. I thought the whole point of the FCC mandate was that I could buy my own STB and then cable would provide me the card.

Too soon to know what's different in the upgraded SA8300HDC's....maybe nothing....
Or maybe they used newer, less buggy HDMI v.1.3 I/F chips....

Maybe they're using new OCAP OS, which MIGHT have a bunch of changes, such as:
A working Firewire I/F????
New Navigator IPG with enhanced OnDemand Search and other features...
And either faster.....or more likely slower IPG reaction times....

Stay tuned.....we'll soon find out....

Then, report to the FCC that the cable company will not provide a cablecard box for upgrading purposes.
In that case, the cable company wouldn't be violating the rule, so the FCC wouldn't do anything about it. The cable company is allowed to provide you a used box without CC instead of a new box with CC.

Forgive me if I am being obtuse, but I don't get how I would benefit from renting a STB from cable that has a cable card in it vs. getting a standard STB. Is newer simply better? Looking at the PDF for the new SA8300 above with cable card support, I don't see any real benefit over the non CC SA8300 I get now.
I suspect that they are basically the same except for the CC slot.
I thought the whole point of the FCC mandate was that I could buy my own STB and then cable would provide me the card.
You can buy an STB or TV with a CC slot, and you can ask the cable company to provide a CC for it. The cable company is legally required to provide a CC if you ask for one, according to rules that took effect 3 years ago (on 7/1/2004). However, the cable company is not legally required to offer an STB for sale. If the cable company chooses not to offer an STB for sale, you can still buy any STB or TV with a CC slot that is available on the market.

A working Firewire I/F????This is the ticket, subscribers having the ability to archive PPV programming content to HD DVD for personal use.

In that case, the cable company wouldn't be violating the rule, so the FCC wouldn't do anything about it. The cable company is allowed to provide you a used box without CC instead of a new box with CC.

Wait a minute. I can require the cable company to give me a cablecard, but I can't require them to give me something to make it work in if I don't have a cablecard set (I do)?

I suspect that you're getting hung up on the fact that cable companies will keep pushing their old boxes and most people will accept them without protest.

Of course once you demand cablecard, the cable company will want you to put the cablecard in their box rather than one purchased at Walmart.

I can require the cable company to give me a cablecard, but I can't require them to give me something to make it work in if I don't have a cablecard set (I do)?
That's correct, according to the rules.

Wait a minute. I can require the cable company to give me a cablecard, but I can't require them to give me something to make it work in if I don't have a cablecard set (I do)?Did you really mean this statement? Yes, you can either rent a CableCard from your cable service OR you can rent a cable box form them. You can't dictate the particular model or construction of that cable box.

I suspect that you're getting hung up on the fact that cable companies will keep pushing their old boxes and most people will accept them without protest.Cable companies will continue to recycle the boxes that have been turned in - at least till they are fully amortized. They will deploy NEW boxes as needed as their inventory of recycled boxes are depleted.

Of course once you demand cablecard, the cable company will want you to put the cablecard in their box rather than one purchased at Walmart.The choice is yours - either rent a CableCard in your equipment or rent a STB (which may or may not use a CableCard for security). Of course, the cable box approach currently offers the customer features that the CC alone does not - it will be some time before that changes (but it will change).

Did you really mean this statement? (This is a question, not a statement.) Yes, you can either rent a CableCard from your cable service OR you can rent a cable box form them. You can't dictate the particular model or construction of that cable box.

Cable companies will continue to recycle the boxes that have been turned in - at least till they are fully amortized. They will deploy NEW boxes as needed as their inventory of recycled boxes are depleted.

The choice is yours - either rent a CableCard in your equipment or rent a STB (which may or may not use a CableCard for security). Of course, the cable box approach currently offers the customer features that the CC alone does not - it will be some time before that changes (but it will change).

So there are no circumstances under which you can demand and be assured of receiving one of the new boxes? The deployment of the new boxes is optional for the cable companies?

The deployment of the new boxes is optional for the cable companies?
It is optional unless the cable company has no used boxes left to deploy.

Wait a minute. I can require the cable company to give me a cablecard, but I can't require them to give me something to make it work in if I don't have a cablecard set (I do)?

I suspect that you're getting hung up on the fact that cable companies will keep pushing their old boxes and most people will accept them without protest.

Of course once you demand cablecard, the cable company will want you to put the cablecard in their box rather than one purchased at Walmart.So are you saying that if I call my local cable TV provider right now and demand an M-Card, they will try and placate me by offering to rent a SA8300HDC DVR (http://www.sciatl.com/customers/Source/7008360.pdf) instead?

So are you saying that if I call my local cable TV provider right now and demand an M-Card, they will try and placate me by offering to rent a SA8300HDC DVR (http://www.sciatl.com/customers/Source/7008360.pdf) instead?

I don't know what an M-Card is. ....................... Besides, surely it will be a while before the cable companies actually do what the FCC wants them to do.

As I said a 8300HDC (http://www.sciatl.com/customers/Source/7008360.pdf) will placate me for now until I can buy something better later on.

Actually I just got off the phone with a supervisor who is checking his inventory as we speak. :)

All the whining and he's getting a 8300. What a joke.

http://www.zazzle.com/product/217707967966068205

All the whining and he's getting a 8300. What a joke.

http://www.zazzle.com/product/217707967966068205Dude... that was harsh! :(

But I don't care... now that I picked up an SA8300HDC DVR (http://www.sciatl.com/customers/Source/7008360.pdf) & a 4250HDC (http://www.scientificatlanta.com/customers/Source/7008361.pdf) I have some tangible evidence that Time Warner has taken the next step towards an Open Cable environment. :)

Add back the HBOs & Showtimes (only because ATW provides two more HD stations for these not-so-premium movie channels) and I just increased my cable bill by a whopping ~75% :eek: per month.

(The key word here is: placate (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/placate), feel free to click on my link if you don't know what that means.) :D

Supposedly these boxes have one or more working IEEE 1394 ports so I'll be interested to see what they do.

Dude... that was harsh! :(

But I don't care... now that I picked up an SA8300HDC DVR (http://www.sciatl.com/customers/Source/7008360.pdf) & a 4250HDC (http://www.scientificatlanta.com/customers/Source/7008361.pdf) I have some tangible evidence that Time Warner has taken the next step towards an Open Cable environment. :)


What difference does that make? Unleashing Navigator and the Samsung deal was OCAP evidence enough. Distributing an 8300 with a CC slot doesn't have any real effect in most areas. Unless it's running Navigator, any promised enhancements to the service will still be in the hands of the TWC software developers and the SDV engineers. Outside of that it's the same shiny box except with a big hole in the back.

Outside of that it's the same shiny box except with a big hole in the back.I can see how a very similar, silver colored skin would fool you. But if you take the time to look under the hood you will see that big hole in the back of the SA8300HDC is filled with an M-Card and it's purported to have an active IEEE interface & presumably a somewhat updated tuner/MPEG decoder.

I can see how a very similar, silver colored skin would fool you. But if you take the time to look under the hood you will see that big hole in the back of the SA8300HDC is filled with an M-Card and it's purported to have an active IEEE interface & presumably a somewhat updated tuner/MPEG decoder.

OK, I realize this is a risk considering the fact that I almost never get an actual response to a post, but if I have TWC, which I do, and an HD TV with necessary service, which I do, and a set top box, which I do, what is the best box I can hope that TWC will make available to me? Thanks, in advance, for your answers.

OK, I realize this is a risk considering the fact that I almost never get an actual response to a post, but if I have TWC, which I do, and an HD TV with necessary service, which I do, and a set top box, which I do, what is the best box I can hope that TWC will make available to me? Thanks, in advance, for your answers.I can't say who makes the best STB but these are the most current (as in brand new) receivers being offered by Time Warner:

8300HDC DVR (http://www.sciatl.com/customers/Source/7008360.pdf) & 4250HDC (http://www.scientificatlanta.com/customers/Source/7008361.pdf)

I got them set up late last night so I haven't had much time to evaluate their performance but they appear to work as anticipated. I noticed some increased evidence of macro blocking and other associated artifacts with the 8300HDC --> 50PX50U w/HDMI versus 1.0 CableCARD, but I attribute this to Time Warner’s bandwidth starved cable system, which should be resolved by the eventual mass migration of channels onto SDV.

OK, I realize this is a risk considering the fact that I almost never get an actual response to a post, but if I have TWC, which I do, and an HD TV with necessary service, which I do, and a set top box, which I do, what is the best box I can hope that TWC will make available to me? Thanks, in advance, for your answers.
For some, a built-in hard drive (DVR) might be a requirement for a 'best box' (e.g. SA8300HD). For others, the highest resolution output possible could define best box. Some NYC TWC users have acquired the new Samsung non-DVR H3050 (see posts near this one (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10943993&&#post10943993)).

Most often 8300HD and other STB users measure only ~1300 lines effective resolution from HDNet's Saturday 6:30 am ET 1920X1080i test pattern; (check HD.Net schedule using 'test' as the title search term). That's about what this 1080p Sony Ruby FP owner measured (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8865051#post8865051).

If new H3050 users started reporting closer to 1920 lines effective resolution (resolvable versus format lines) versus the 1280 lines I measure (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5175424#post5175424) with my vintage 8300HD, I'd quickly add the Samsung as a second STB, using my 8300HD mostly for DVRing. So...'best' isn't a B&W issue in video, and new hardware constantly changes the picture.

(Really pinning down this HDNet pattern measurement technique would require confirming the patterns are a full 1920X1080i as satellite downlinked, and it's also unlikely anyone can confirm other HD channels undergo nearly identical head-end processing within various cable systems.) -- John

Supposedly these boxes have one or more working IEEE 1394 ports so I'll be interested to see what they do.

Nothing. They've been essentially inoperative in terms of making a solid connection with a D-VHS tape deck since last August when TWC pushed down a new version of the operating system. This has nothing to do with HDCP or 5C; the firewire ports have been disabled at the software/firmware level.

So, we are within 2 months of DirecTVs assload of HD channels going online...has TWC made any kind of announcements regarding new carriage agreements? Seems like if they want to compete, one would be coming soon...or will they just ignore whats happening on the satellite end and keep proclaiming themselves great?

I got them set up late last night so I haven't had much time to evaluate their performance but they appear to work as anticipated. I noticed some increased evidence of macro blocking and other associated artifacts with the 8300HDC --> 50PX50U w/HDMI versus 1.0 CableCARD, but I attribute this to Time Warner’s bandwidth starved cable system, which should be resolved by the eventual mass migration of channels onto SDV.

So we see what hardware you have, but we do need to know what software is running on the 8300 AND what location you are in. As has been suggested, you can add that data inbto your sig so we don't have to ask each time...

I noticed some increased evidence of macro blocking and other associated artifacts with the 8300HDC --> 50PX50U w/HDMI versus 1.0 CableCARD, but I attribute this to Time Warner’s bandwidth starved cable system, which should be resolved by the eventual mass migration of channels onto SDV.IFthese issues were due to "Time Warner’s bandwidth starved cable system" then you would see the same problems with a CC too.

The 8300 has always been somewhat sensitive to signal levels. You might want to check that out.

Most (I can't say all for sure) TW systems are not limiting bandwidth. One easy way to check is to get into diagnostics and check the number of video bit streams per QAM. A QAM is capable of 38Mbps. Typically, TW puts two HD channels in a QAM at 16-18Mbps each. If you see three HD channels in there, then they are bitrate limiting.

So we see what hardware you have, but we do need to know what software is running on the 8300 AND what location you are in. As has been suggested, you can add that data inbto your sig so we don't have to ask each time...I enabled the Diagnostics Mode for the 8300HDC and here are some of the particulars:

SARA software version: 1.90.5.101

58 separate diag screen loads

Information regarding IEEE & SDV features

Screen loads 31 - 58 are dedicated to CableCARD information

This unit is configured with an SA Multi-stream CableCARD

Can we presume you used the standard SARA entry procedure to Diagnostic Menus?

What can be said about CableCARD that takes 28 pages????

Multi-Room DVR?
Is OCAP mentioned anywhere?
What about misc. apps?

Elsewhere I see you started on trying to get Firewire ports to work with Vista....
Now if someone can check Firewire port to a DVHS....

A few screen shots would be appreciated as well....

Thanks optivity and John Mason for answering. I really do realize that it's a pain talking to someone with very 'kindergarten' questions and I appreciate the help. I'll keep reading here and hopefully I'll keep learning. Peace. :)

I can see how a very similar, silver colored skin would fool you. But if you take the time to look under the hood you will see that big hole in the back of the SA8300HDC is filled with an M-Card and it's purported to have an active IEEE interface & presumably a somewhat updated tuner/MPEG decoder.

And how is that any further proof of OCAP development? They've already made their stance on OCAP more than clear enough before this box was released. Active FW and minor chipset upgrades mean absolutely nothing to the HD content of TWC. FW enabled boxes have been available before.

For the purposes of this thread it's a box like any other in TWC's stock pile. It has no effect on OCAP or how many channels of HD you'll get.

All this talk about the 8300HDC should be in the relevant hardware thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=581843

It has no effect on OCAP or how many channels of HD you'll get.The 8300HDC is very different from its predecessors in that it no longer has integrated security, but instead uses an M-Card to administer DRM. This is the first OCAP compliant two-way DCR device that I have obtained from my cable TV provider and when the digital A/V equipment manufacturers start producing DCR devices with M-Card slot(s) the Cable MSOs will have to allow connectivity of this equipment to their networks.

IMO... the handwriting is on the wall and by next year we will see many different types of interactive A/V platforms for digital cable subscribers to lease or purchase.

For the purposes of this thread it's a box like any other in TWC's stock pile.

All this talk about the 8300HDC should be in the relevant hardware thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=581843
Since the box is brand new... it doesn't have any scuff marks on it yet. :D

link to my (un)Official 8300HDC thread --> (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=872123)

So, we are within 2 months of DirecTVs assload of HD channels going online...has TWC made any kind of announcements regarding new carriage agreements? Seems like if they want to compete, one would be coming soon...or will they just ignore whats happening on the satellite end and keep proclaiming themselves great?

I'm as curious as anyone as to what TWC's HD rollout plans are. The problem with being a multiple system operator is that it is strategically difficult to roll out technical advances simultaneously across your footprint. When you make announcements in the press, the fact that some subscribers will get more sooner than others becomes a negative annoucement.

I'm not apologizing for TWC, but there is no doubt in my mind that they take this HD revolution very seriously. They also know that long term, the hybrid fiber coax bidirectional and segmentable distribution network can and will support levels of choice that satellite simply cannot achieve.

And while fiber to the home is the holy grail, it's not there yet, and won't be universally availble for decades, and quite frankly, it's my opinion that when it does finally happen, there won't be "cable" companies and "phone" companies per se anyway. That distinction will dissolve.

This time next year the cable industry's offerings will look way different than they do today. AND they will look better than satellite.

Satellite plays the HD hand because it's the only hand they have to play.

The concepts that we all need to understand when comparing satellite with cable is the difference between a LINEAR and SWITCHED system. Compare satellite to old phone technology where it required a connected pair of wires between the two users, rather than muxing thousands of conversations on a shared fiber.

Sorry, too much coffee this morning. :confused:

But trust me, TWC (and all major cable operators) will not only keep pace with the satellite guys, but will do so with less compromises in quality, and many more options to access quantity.

A couple of additional comments:

While DirecTV may roll out a lot of HD content, VERY FEW of their subscribers have equipment that can receive it. DirecTV is going to have a difficult time servicing their existing base and adding new subscribers at the same time. Guess who's going to get priority. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Also, the 5 LNB dish is a bitch to align, and rainfade on the Ka band locals has already proven to be an issue.

TWC knows that time is still on their side, so hopefully they won't go into panic mode and roll out something as buggy as Navigator to a large number of subscribers and end up with a disaster.

We'll know more about who had the better strategy a year from now. :D

From Multichannel News, 06/27/07

The MSO initiated its first beta-test in July 2004 in Austin. The division launched SDV systemwide in spring 2006. It now switches 175 standard-definition channels -- having added 75 during the past year -- and eight HD channels, using BigBand Networks' switched-digital servers.

“Before SDV, we were bandwidth-sparse,” Bowen said. Moving to switched digital, he added, “allowed us to launch digital simulcast.”

Time Warner, an early proponent of the technology, is betting big on SDV to let it keep pace on HDTV. It expects to increase the rollout from eight divisions at the end of 2006 to at least one-half of its 23 divisions this year. SDV will let the MSO offer “virtually unlimited” HD capacity, chief operating officer Landel Hobbs said at a Wall Street conference earlier this month

The 8300HDC is very different from its predecessors in that it no longer has integrated security, but instead uses an M-Card to administer DRM. This is the first OCAP compliant two-way DCR device that I have obtained from my cable TV provider and when the digital A/V equipment manufacturers start producing DCR devices with M-Card slot(s) the Cable MSOs will have to allow connectivity of this equipment to their networks.

IMO... the handwriting is on the wall and by next year we will see many different types of interactive A/V platforms for digital cable subscribers to lease or purchase.

Since the box is brand new... it doesn't have any scuff marks on it yet. :D

link to my (un)Official 8300HDC thread --> (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=872123)

What is an M-Card?

What is an M-Card?
Have you heard of Google? It comes up on the first results page.

What is an M-Card?From the CableLabs CableCard Primer (http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html) :

CableCARD Terminology
Since CableCARD-2.0 Interface specifications now included all the requirements from both the original (single-stream) CableCARD interface and the new (multi-stream) CableCARD interface, terminology was developed to distinguish between the two different operating modes and product types:

* S-CARD: A two-way CableCARD module that follows the original CableCARD 1.0 Interface specification or implements only the single-stream portion of the CableCARD-2.0 Interface specification.

* M-Card: A two-way CableCARD module that implements all of the multi-stream functionality as well as the single-stream functionality (for backward compatibility purposes) of the CableCARD-2.0 Interface specification.

A couple of additional comments:

While DirecTV may roll out a lot of HD content, VERY FEW of their subscribers have equipment that can receive it. DirecTV is going to have a difficult time servicing their existing base and adding new subscribers at the same time. Guess who's going to get priority. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Also, the 5 LNB dish is a bitch to align, and rainfade on the Ka band locals has already proven to be an issue.

TWC knows that time is still on their side, so hopefully they won't go into panic mode and roll out something as buggy as Navigator to a large number of subscribers and end up with a disaster.

We'll know more about who had the better strategy a year from now. :D


My compliments on 2 very intelligent, thought out, and informed posts.

Years ago some of the MSOs fell in love with multiple sattellite dishes. Unfortunately we got involved not because we sold multi-sat dishes (we had our own very good signal sat dish) but because we sold LNAs. Not many systems had good test equipment then so the LNAs came into question when pictures off the multi sat dishes turned marginal. Of course the LNAs were fine. Not a lot of room for error on a multi sat dish. Particularly in the northeast! Big storms aren't real respectful off razor thin alignments.

From the CableLabs CableCard Primer (http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html) :
Note existing inventory of CableCARD modules has ALWAYS been two-way
capable, but until STB related two-way protocols and specs were finalized
and available for test, original S-CARD couldn't be certified for two-way:
http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/06/15/there-is-no-cablecard-2-0/

Hmmm, I wonder if the same is true for multi-stream capability....maybe it's a firmware mod...

Note existing inventory of CableCARD modules has ALWAYS been two-way
capable, but until STB related two-way protocols and specs were finalized
and available for test, original S-CARD couldn't be certified for two-way:
http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/06/15/there-is-no-cablecard-2-0/Yep!

My compliments on 2 very intelligent, thought out, and informed posts.

Years ago some of the MSOs fell in love with multiple sattellite dishes. Unfortunately we got involved not because we sold multi-sat dishes (we had our own very good signal sat dish) but because we sold LNAs. Not many systems had good test equipment then so the LNAs came into question when pictures off the multi sat dishes turned marginal. Of course the LNAs were fine. Not a lot of room for error on a multi sat dish. Particularly in the northeast! Big storms aren't real respectful off razor thin alignments.

Thanks for the compliment. :)

From Multichannel News, 06/27/07

The MSO initiated its first beta-test in July 2004 in Austin. The division launched SDV systemwide in spring 2006. It now switches 175 standard-definition channels -- having added 75 during the past year -- and eight HD channels, using BigBand Networks' switched-digital servers.

“Before SDV, we were bandwidth-sparse,” Bowen said. Moving to switched digital, he added, “allowed us to launch digital simulcast.”

Time Warner, an early proponent of the technology, is betting big on SDV to let it keep pace on HDTV. It expects to increase the rollout from eight divisions at the end of 2006 to at least one-half of its 23 divisions this year. SDV will let the MSO offer “virtually unlimited” HD capacity, chief operating officer Landel Hobbs said at a Wall Street conference earlier this month

Time Warner shouldn't be so quick. The CEA has a proposal before the FCC that would limit the use of SDV until two-way consumer cablecard devices have hit the market.


I quote at length:


"The issue of “switched digital” service deserves particular attention. First, for the sake of simplicity only, the Proposal classifies switched digital content as “interactive,” even though consumers observe no interaction with the cable network when accessing it. Indeed, to clarify, switched digital content might properly be classified as “bi-directional,” but it is plainly not interactive.
Further, as the record shows, cable operators are migrating channels of video programming to a switched digital delivery scheme. See Letter from Steven N. Teplitz, Time Warner Cable, Inc., to Marlene H. Dortch, Secretary, Federal Communications Commission, (May 11, 2006). If cable had not implemented switched digital in a manner that disenfranchised consumers from the programming they had reasonably expected to receive with their UDCPs, we would, of course, support this and all such efforts by cable to increase the efficiency of their networks.

Present unidirectional digital cable ready (“UDCR”) devices, however, cannot receive services with an interactive component, like switched digital, and consumers cannot know upon purchase of a UDCR that some linear programming may become unavailable in the future. If cable operators continue to migrate channels to switched digital, UDCR customers will continue to lose programming or be forced to switch to a leased set-top box, which ultimately will discourage consumers from purchasing devices at retail, as they can no longer expect to receive all the programming that they receive on the day they bring the device home. Switched digital thus directly undermines CE efforts and Commission action. We recognize that it is not possible to fix UDCRs that are already in consumer homes and that it may not be an effective allocation of cable or CE resources to spend significant time addressing the UDCR/switched digital issue. Instead, the Commission should limit MSOs’ ability to migrate programming to switched digital until CE manufacturers have the capability to build and sell devices that can handle switched digital. This is the only fair result for consumers, and will encourage cable to move quickly on two-way."

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-120A3.pdf

From the CableLabs CableCard Primer (http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html) :

Thanks, Dave.

dc10forlife,

It is interesting to note that the CEA proposal was written 11/6/06 and for almost 9 months the FCC has taken no action to restrict SDV. On 6/29/07 the FCC released their THIRD FURTHER NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-120A1.pdf) looking for comment on this matter. Those comments are due about 8/15. If the FCC goes through their normal process (note that this is the 3rd Notice) they will likely not issue regulations in the matter till mid to late 2008.

In the meantime, the FCC has not done anything to restrict the expansion of interactive services (VOD, SDV, etc.). Actually, this may well encourage TW to accelerate the deployment of SDV.

Time Warners new consumer page regarding CableCards:

http://www.timewarnercable.com/nc/products/cable/cablecard.html

Time Warners new consumer page regarding CableCards:

http://www.timewarnercable.com/nc/products/cable/cablecard.html

That is the page for North Carolina. The information, and the fees, vary by location. For instance in the Dallas suburbs this is the page: http://www.timewarnercable.com/dallas/products/cablecard.html?menu=Cable and the information is different. Although it isn't explicit on the page, I've been told by TW that the $2.95 charge here covers the first and subsequent cablecards. They were free until about 2 months ago.

The 8300HDC is very different from its predecessors in that it no longer has integrated security, but instead uses an M-Card to administer DRM. This is the first OCAP compliant two-way DCR device that I have obtained from my cable TV provider and when the digital A/V equipment manufacturers start producing DCR devices with M-Card slot(s) the Cable MSOs will have to allow connectivity of this equipment to their networks.

Isn't it true that OCAP on a 8300HDC comes about if it's running Navigator? If 8300HDCs are still running Passport (not even sure if they CAN) then I doubt OCAP is in play.

Isn't it true that OCAP on a 8300HDC comes about if it's running Navigator? If 8300HDCs are still running Passport (not even sure if they CAN) then I doubt OCAP is in play.8300s (SD, HD, C, HDC) are all capable of running different software. The "C"s have a bit more application RAM and claimed to be "OCAP Compliant" - but they can still run SARA or Passport, or OCAP. TW has deployed 8300HDCs with SARA1.90.xx.xx on some systems.

Isn't it true that OCAP on a 8300HDC comes about if it's running Navigator? If 8300HDCs are still running Passport (not even sure if they CAN) then I doubt OCAP is in play.The 8300HDC has SARA software version: 1.90.5.101 comprised of 58 pages of diagnostic information where screen loads 31 - 58 are dedicated to CableCARD information. This unit is configured with an SA Multi-stream CableCARD, so I’d say it's middleware supports OCAP e.g.:

“Panasonic OpenCable™ Application Platform (OCAP™) Licensee Support Site


OCAP™ is the nations's next-generation interactive digital cable television standard. Regardless of who the cable operator is, or the service area, with an OCAP™-compliant receiver a user can get a variety of advanced interactive, two-way services like VOD (Video on Demand), EPG (Electronic Program Guide), home banking, interactive games, as well as other e-Commerce applications. For those that use this standard, an application that works with one cable provider in one area of the country, can also work with another cable operator in a completely different area.

Panasonic will provide solutions for OCAP™-compliant receivers, such as DTV sets or set-top boxes. This includes:

OCAP™ middleware software
STB based OCAP™ Application Development Kits
PC based OCAP™ Application Development Kits”

The 8300HDC has SARA software version: 1.90.5.101 comprised of 58 pages of diagnostic information where screen loads 31 - 58 are dedicated to CableCARD information. This unit is configured with an SA Multi-stream CableCARD, so I’d say it's middleware supports OCAP e.g. The fact that the unit uses a Multi-Steam Card has nothing to do with OCAP. Yes, the box is OCAP compliant, but really, so are the older boxes. Being "OCAP compliant" is a feature that cable companies look for these days.

P.S. Panasonic has nothing unique. There are several companies now getting on the "OCAP bandwagon".

The fact that the unit uses a Multi-Steam Card has nothing to do with OCAP :confused:

"MediaCipher Multi-Stream CableCARD (M-Card) Based on OpenCable standards... (http://broadband.motorola.com/business/digitalvideo/product_mcard.asp)"

:confused:

"MediaCipher Multi-Stream CableCARD (M-Card) Based on OpenCable standards... (http://broadband.motorola.com/business/digitalvideo/product_mcard.asp)"

OCAP is in the hands of TWC. Until TWC tell the box it can use OCAP it's just a box like any other running Passport or SARA.

Until a box gets the OCAP Navigator it's the same as any other HD starved Passport or SARA system, as you've discovered. Since according to TWC they need Navigator to run SDV, and they need SDV to bump the HD content.

Box hardware is largely irrelevant. You could buy a Ferrari but it's still not going to go any faster than a Camry if it doesn't have any gas.

Well, it's not a matter of TWC "telling the box it can use OCAP" it's a matter of them providing either the underlying RTOS of the application level software how to run it. My understanding so far is that OCAP resides in the middleware (Passport/SARA). We seem to "know" there are version of SARA than CAN do OCAP or SDV, but Passport can do neither (it could probably, but there are no documented instances of anyone with Passport having OCAP or SDV running).

As for veering O/T, SDV is very relevant to "more HD" while OCAP is not.

:confused:

"MediaCipher Multi-Stream CableCARD (M-Card) Based on OpenCable standards... (http://broadband.motorola.com/business/digitalvideo/product_mcard.asp)" Ah, I see your confusion here: OpenCable standards does not equal OCAP. OCAP is but one development that the CableLabs has going under the "Open Cable Initiative". The original CableCard was another, and the new 2.0 Cards (which is really what is in your box) is another. Companies can develop an OpenCable 2.0 Host Device (Host Device is a STB) without OCAP.

Your particular box is an OCAP compliant Host device, but it apparently has not implemented OCAP as it uses SARA. But the same box in Lincoln, NE would use different software (Navigator) which is supposedly an OCAP application.

OCAP is in the hands of TWC. Until TWC tell the box it can use OCAP it's just a box like any other running Passport or SARA.

Until a box gets the OCAP Navigator it's the same as any other HD starved Passport or SARA system, as you've discovered. Since according to TWC they need Navigator to run SDV, and they need SDV to bump the HD content.

Box hardware is largely irrelevant. You could buy a Ferrari but it's still not going to go any faster than a Camry if it doesn't have any gas.If TiVo came out with a new DVR that had an M-Card slot, would it be OCAP compliant & be able to connect to Time Warner's cable system?

If TiVo came out with a new DVR that had an M-Card slot, would it be OCAP compliant & be able to connect to Time Warner's cable system?

Theoretically yes. From what I understood when I read it a while back, that's the big cool thing about OCAP . Your hardware compatible with TWC signals (or any other OCAP cableco) without needing anything from them. For HDTVs with OCAP compatibility built-in you wouldn't even need the card, the TV could handle the OCAP information internally and display and control it using it's own guide. Or something like that.

Like everything else though, it needs TWC to step up and start rolling this out. Until they start pushing buttons to get it live it won't affect anything.

We seem to "know" there are version of SARA than CAN do OCAP or SDV, but Passport can do neither (it could probably, but there are no documented instances of anyone with Passport having OCAP or SDV running).


Passport can do OCAP according to the recent news. I think I remember something about it being able to handle SDV as well. Isn't the whole reason that Navigator is crawling around the cable system just because TWC want to save some money by bringing it in house?

Aptiv also used the show to demo the Passport Echo EPG's OCAP support and consequently its compatibility with a number of OCAP software stacks and set-top boxes.

http://blog.itvt.com/my_weblog/2007/05/aptiv_unveils_n.html

Theoretically yes. From what I understood when I read it a while back, that's the big cool thing about OCAP . Your hardware compatible with TWC signals (or any other OCAP cableco) without needing anything from them. For HDTVs with OCAP compatibility built-in you wouldn't even need the card, the TV could handle the OCAP information internally and display and control it using it's own guide. Or something like that.

Like everything else though, it needs TWC to step up and start rolling this out. Until they start pushing buttons to get it live it won't affect anything.Mostly correct, except for:For HDTVs with OCAP compatibility built-in you wouldn't even need the card. You would still need the CableCard. You need to have a security mechanism to prevent "theft of service". Right now, the only security mechanism that exists is the CableCard. I believe that you are really thinking of "downloadable security" (DCAS). This too is part of the OpenCable initiative, but is not as far along as OCAP. There has been some talk that DCAS capable devices will need a custom IC chip, and these don't yet exist in quantity.

Passport can do OCAP according to the recent news. I think I remember something about it being able to handle SDV as well. Isn't the whole reason that Navigator is crawling around the cable system just because TWC want to save some money by bringing it in house?Yep! :eek:

Negotiating the Value of Programming
No. 2 Cable Operator’s Content Chief Seeks Out Win-Win Scenarios
Q&A With Melinda Witmer, Senior VP and Chief Programming Officer, Time Warner Cable
By R. Thomas Umstead and Linda Moss Multichannel News 7/23/2007

More than six months after taking over Time Warner Cable’s programming reins from the now-retired Fred Dressler, senior vice president and chief programming officer Melinda Witmer has already established herself as a successful negotiator in her own right.

Having secured major distribution deals with The Walt Disney Co. and Sinclair Broadcast Group, Witmer has set her sights on combing through the operator’s current cable network carriage deals to make sure that Time Warner is getting the most value for itself and its subscribers.

Multichannel News programming editor R. Thomas Umstead and programming writer Linda Moss recently sat down with Witmer to discuss the programmer’s negotiation strategies, particularly regarding high-priced sports networks like NFL Network and The Big Ten Network.

An edited transcript follows:

QUESTION: : Six months into your position as head of Time Warner’s programming operations, have you accomplished any of the goals you set for 2007?

MELINDA WAGNER: Unquestionably, I have to say that I had a couple of goals, including trying to get some deals done that had been lingering, which we have accomplished. Most important was to get the right team in place. And I really didn’t know how long that would take. I feel I got incredibly lucky, because we were able to get a new team in place in really just a few months. So I would say that was my No. 1 goal, and, yes, we have accomplished it.

QUESTION: : You mentioned a number of deals that you had to work on. How difficult has it been so far in your tenure to complete deals and negotiate with the networks?

MELINDA WAGNER: We had a number of deals that were a little bit bottlenecked. We had a busy year last year, and we had a much smaller team. And so one of my goals coming into taking over the department was to really try to eliminate some of the inefficiencies.

What I heard when I started out talking to programmers about how we could make our business together work better was that it just takes too long to do deals — it just takes far too long to get from start to finish. And it didn’t just happen at Time Warner; it happens at Comcast and it happens at DirecTV. But it felt so inefficient in an environment that is so dynamic now and where the business seems like it’s changing constantly. So it was important to me to get the people in place so that we could really get focused and get deals done.

We had a couple of big deals done. You know we closed the [The Walt] Disney [Co.] deal in March that had been lingering for some time, and finished our Sinclair [Broadcast Group] deal the first of the year. And we have a lot of other things that have been in process. But we’re really able to focus on a broader spectrum of work, as well as to start to really focus in on our local business, which is something we just didn’t have the resources to really spend the time on before.

QUESTION: : You mentioned the Sinclair deal. As has been well-documented, Sinclair was in a huge battle with Mediacom Communications that turned into a very nasty situation. You managed to close a deal with them without having that disastrous situation of having stations dropped. How were you able to close that deal while avoiding confrontation?

MELINDA WAGNER: I think from our perspective, and in every conversation I had with our senior management team going into how that deal was going to progress, everyone was unified in their focus on our consumers and the recognition that Sinclair is a large provider of programming for us. So in recognition that network programming is very important to our customers, we were focused on how we could find a way to get to a win-win place and keep consistency, while letting our customers see us as a consistent and sturdy provider of content to them.

One of the things that I think doesn’t do any of us in the industry a service is the sense of volatility and the fisticuffs between providers and operators on an ongoing basis. And that seems to drag consumers into the middle of our marketplace commercial transactions.

So the way we approached the Sinclair deal was to say, “What is important to us? What is important to you?” And I think actually one of the things — because they said this to us on a number of occasions — that set a tone for those conversations was we never questioned the value of the product that they were delivering.

QUESTION: : You think that made a difference?

MELINDA WAGNER: Yes. We came to them and said, “Look, network programming is important to our customers, and you are the seller of network programming in our markets.” So I think it was important because they kept saying, “Well, you know, one thing I’ll give you credit for, you never pound the table and say 'There’s no value here!’ ” And so I think that really set the tone.

And we provide a lot of value back. That was something else that I think was recognized very openly by them is that [some of our] consumers actually watch broadcast television off the air now. So it’s a recognition that they like to DVR the content.

It perpetuates the popularity of the programming they distribute, but its also important to have a quality signal and to have access to things like DVRs that really make us more valuable to them.

And we’re both local businesses. That’s the other thing we really have in common with broadcast is we’re operating in the same community.

Certainly I won’t say it was an easy negotiation by any stretch. But there was a sense of a mutual respect at least for what both parties brought to the table.

QUESTION: : Can you say as a cable company now is there a set policy in terms of negotiating with stations? You know the debates whether cable operators are paying cash, no cash, or whatever — is there a set policy at Time Warner now, or is it fluid?

MELINDA WAGNER: You know, there really is no set policy.

QUESTION: : There also seems to be a debate as to what is defined as cash. Everyone defines cash as different. Is ad time cash? How do you define the value of what’s being exchanged in these deals?

MELINDA WAGNER: Every transaction is different. It would be a license fee for a programming service. You pay them, you cut them a check, but you’re still getting value in exchange. So I guess I don’t know that from my perspective — I’ve kind of sat back through that debate. I don’t really know that this question of what’s cash and what isn’t cash really matters as much as the question of, are you able to exchange value in such a way that you can reach agreement for us to continue to serve the customers in the best possible way? And that just continues to be a guiding principle for us.

And there are things that cable operators do that exchange value in favor of the stations. We’ve done all kinds of things to improve signal quality, even in instances where not every broadcast station has necessarily maintained more towers or necessarily done other things. What I’m saying is there is some recognition of the value that we bring to the table now. I’m not sure that’s always been the case.

QUESTION: : Obviously that’s been a very a contentious issue for operators. Another contentious issue is the whole sports-content marketplace, and there are a number of sports networks that I’m sure are knocking on your door right now. One is the NFL Network and another is the Big Ten Network. How do you approach those types of negotiations? Sort of the same concept of “We have value, you have value … now let’s figure out a way to get this distributed?” Or are you saying flatly, “We want all of new sports networks on a sports tier as opposed to basic?”

MELINDA WAGNER: Not unlike where we started with Sinclair, it’s true for every programming service — whether it’s a renewal or whether it’s a new service — that we’re really focused on what the value proposition is to the consumer. We operate in an incredibly competitive environment. This is not the same cable industry that [former Time Warner Cable executive vice president of programming] Fred [Dressler] started in. It’s certainly not the same cable industry it was even 15 years ago. So we have real active competition everywhere we operate.

And so for us, the analysis is always what’s the product we’re going to deliver and how we can deliver the most compelling video product we possibly can for a reasonable price that consumers are willing to pay. So whether it’s the Big Ten Network, the NFL Network, MASN [Mid-Atlantic Sports Network], or whomever, the No. 1 consideration is, do our customers want this? How important is this content to these customers?

What we found with the NFL last year is that very few of our customers even complained, much less left us. I don’t know whether anyone knew for sure exactly how that would come out, but what we found going into it is that we weren’t really hearing from our customers that this was going to be a must-have for them.

We’ve had the [Major League Baseball Baltimore] Orioles games off the air since they left [Comcast SportsNet Mid-Atlantic] before they went to MASN. And we’re really not hearing anything from our customers in the Carolinas.

So for us in an incredibly competitive environment, what we want to do is go with the [networks] that we think we need to compete and to offer the most compelling product we can to our customers. So we’re making that analysis all the time. And we, as other operators, will have to make determinations in a competitive environment where price is also competitive to the consumer, that if a product comes along that is really more compelling than something else, we’re going to be making decisions about what we continue to carry, because the dollars are not unlimited.

Ultimately, we feel that we stand in the shoes of our consumers when we negotiate, so we represent their wallet at the table, as well as our own. And we have a strong sense that that isn’t an unlimited spending budget. So we have to make those decisions as to what we really need to compete and what they really want.

QUESTION: : At this point, as you’re looking at both of those networks, do you see them as being sports-tiered networks in terms of their value? You mentioned that you’re not getting complaints with the NFL Network, but the Big Ten’s a little different. You have systems that represent markets where Big Ten schools are and there might be a great desire among those subscribers [to be able to watch] that network.

MELINDA WAGNER: Well, I think that, again, it’s a real assessment as to what we think the value is that the content brings to our consumers. There’s no question that there are fans of the NFL, hockey, the Big Ten, tennis — there are fans of every sport you can find.

I think striking the right balance is the question. Of course, we’re in the business of providing video content, so the most compelling offering is going to be able to offer our consumers everything they could possibly want. If bandwidth were unlimited, we would do that at the right price, and let the right people pay for it that want to pay for it.

So I think that — particularly for sports programming where they’re looking for high payoff — we have to be responsible about figuring out who’s going to pay for that. And I don’t think that that burden should be borne by the breadth of customers.

Particularly, the Big Ten is an interesting one only because they’ve kind of cast themselves in a hybrid of a regional sports network and a national service. But you’d probably be hard-pressed to find a regional sports network with an eight-state core market. But we’re still evaluating, and we have an open door with respect to every programmer who wants to do business we us, so we’re talking to them and evaluating, and trying to determine where our customer sets are.

QUESTION: : Are you doing a broad evaluation in general of all the services you’re carrying?

MELINDA WAGNER: Well, we are doing that, especially because we had a lot of subs to integrate into a number of places. We didn’t necessarily have exactly the same programming model that either Adelphia or Comcast did, so we’ve been doing a lot of evaluation of our lineups starting back with those acquisitions. But it’s an ongoing process.

QUESTION: : With all those subs coming under your wing, don’t you have to go through that process of “Well, whose contract is that?” I mean, you have systems from Comcast, which is bigger than you, and Adelphia, which was smaller, so it stands to reason there’s different rates. So how do you come up with a rate that best serves everyone?

MELINDA WAGNER: Well, we bought assets, so, you know, you buy assets, they end up under your contract.

QUESTION: : So that answers that.

MELINDA WAGNER: It’s not just our job to do deals. It’s really our job to facilitate providing the best video product we can to our field to sell to our consumers. So part of that is evaluating. We are spending more time talking to the creative people that work for these networks — bringing them in, bringing in the senior people from their teams, and not only presenting to them the opportunities for distribution but also those we have as we’re evolving our enhanced television platform. There’s a lot of interesting things we’re doing there.

You know, one of the questions I wanted to understand well coming into each negotiation is what is the holistic relationship that we have. We sell advertising, marketing, you know, we carry your products, we promote your products. What kind of a partnership do we really have in terms of what we provide? And I want to understand what you’re doing and what we’re doing. So we’ve been having much more ongoing dialogue that’s not necessarily related to doing deals or renewals.

QUESTION: : You mentioned Mr. Dressler in your comments. Your style seems totally opposite of his — from what we’ve heard from networks, he was a very tough and aggressive negotiator. Because Fred was a bit more contentious in his negotiation style, was it your decision to proceed in a less-aggressive manner?

MELINDA WAGNER: Well, I haven’t at any point stopped and said, “Well, gee whiz. I think this is the way I think Fred was in his style, and I want to be this way.” For me, it’s been about seeing this business as an incredibly competitive business for us, and I feel that in a competitive environment, we have to try to find a way to be the first distributor that a programmer really wants to do business with.

And that’s hard. You’re going to have really difficult negotiations over what you carry, what you don’t carry and how you carry it. Those are really hard conversations and very difficult negotiations. Particularly with a lot of consolidation in the industry, there’s a sort of the clash of titans again and again and again. There are very few deals that are simple, and you kind of long for something that’s simple and easy, and they’re not all that way.

But I think that it is an imperative in a fast-paced, dynamic, competitive environment to have relationships with programmers where there is going to be a level of trust. They want to try things, and we need to be able to let them try things and know that there’s a trust relationship. They don’t want to undermine our business, we’re not going to undermine theirs.

So from my perspective, I felt that it was important for me to focus on how to maintain really good relationships and to communicate well where we can be helpful and where they can be helpful.

http://www.multichannel.com/index.asp?layout=articlePrint&articleID=CA6461992

Negotiating the Value of Programming
No. 2 Cable Operator’s Content Chief Seeks Out Win-Win Scenarios
Q&A With Melinda Witmer, Senior VP and Chief Programming Officer, Time Warner Cable
By R. Thomas Umstead and Linda Moss Multichannel News 7/23/2007



What a waste of an interview by multichannel!

100 HD channels coming from DirecTV in 2 months and no mention of TWC's HD plans?

That omission speaks volumes, doesn't it?

Theoretically yes. From what I understood when I read it a while back, that's the big cool thing about OCAP . Your hardware compatible with TWC signals (or any other OCAP cableco) without needing anything from them. For HDTVs with OCAP compatibility built-in you wouldn't even need the card, the TV could handle the OCAP information internally and display and control it using it's own guide. Or something like that.

Like everything else though, it needs TWC to step up and start rolling this out. Until they start pushing buttons to get it live it won't affect anything.It's already here in smAlbany NY. I have an 8300HDC from Time Warner which uses an M-Card for DRM. My assumption is there will be many DCR devices released during 2008 that support M-Card security authorization.

That omission speaks volumes, doesn't it?

Perhaps it's just because she was responding the questions that were asked.

Perhaps it's just because she was responding the questions that were asked.

Maybe a good question for her is:

"Isn't it true that you don't really just want to pass on the cost of the NFL Network ($.75 or whatever it is) to those sports tier subscribers. What you really want is to jam it into a sports tier and jack up the cost from (ex.) $2.95 to $7.95 or so and pocket the $5/subscriber windfall."

Nah ... TW would never do that, would they?

Negotiating the Value of Programming
No. 2 Cable Operator’s Content Chief Seeks Out Win-Win Scenarios
Q&A With Melinda Witmer, Senior VP and Chief Programming Officer, Time Warner Cable
By R. Thomas Umstead and Linda Moss Multichannel News 7/23/2007


MELINDA WAGNER:

http://www.multichannel.com/index.asp?layout=articlePrint&articleID=CA6461992

FYI ... it's "Witmer"- not Wagner.

FYI ... it's "Witmer"- not Wagner.

whatever...did she get an HDTV yet? :p

whatever...did she get an HDTV yet? :p :D :D LOL!

I forgot about that... this is the same person? Too funny!

Who's "BW"? I thought they were talking to MW.

This is so bogus... it's pretty clear they have all sorts of deals, for tons of content that they seemingly are unwilling to plan to get to me (as in my home city). Nice to talk about her carriage deals but WTF about some folks in the same frakking city as I get pay 20% LESS on their cable bills while they get 30% MORE HD channels (4 to be specific)?

Originally Posted by VisionOn
Theoretically yes. From what I understood when I read it a while back, that's the big cool thing about OCAP . Your hardware compatible with TWC signals (or any other OCAP cableco) without needing anything from them. For HDTVs with OCAP compatibility built-in you wouldn't even need the card, the TV could handle the OCAP information internally and display and control it using it's own guide. Or something like that.

Like everything else though, it needs TWC to step up and start rolling this out. Until they start pushing buttons to get it live it won't affect anything.It's already here in smAlbany NY. I have an 8300HDC from Time Warner which uses an M-Card for DRM. My assumption is there will be many DCR devices released during 2008 that support M-Card security authorization.Just to help clarify this: M-Cards are now being used (as of July 1) by most cable companies with their cable boxes. There is nothing unique in Albany. But, as you may recall, VisionOn had been referring to discussions of OCAP facilitating "something" to allow security without using a CableCard. I replied to that post, pointing out that that "something" was DCAS and is likely a year off. In the meantime, they are using M-Cards.

BTW: I have yet to hear of M-Cards being made available alone from the cable companies (probably because there is virtually no equipment out there to make use of the multi-stream capability).

Any reason not to switch over to DTV? It appears to be cheaper and have more HD channels. In my area the HD package only gives us 5 channels (not including premium movie channels in HD). I'm also paying a normal rate (we just got hooked up a week ago and didn't research getting a sign on deal), should I call and negotiate for one of those promotional deals?

Just to help clarify this: M-Cards are now being used (as of July 1) by most cable companies with their cable boxes. There is nothing unique in Albany. But, as you may recall, VisionOn had been referring to discussions of OCAP facilitating "something" to allow security without using a CableCard. I replied to that post, pointing out that that "something" was DCAS and is likely a year off. In the meantime, they are using M-Cards.

BTW: I have yet to hear of M-Cards being made available alone from the cable companies (probably because there is virtually no equipment out there to make use of the multi-stream capability)."The FCC also swatted down the NCTA’s assertion that CableCARD-based set-tops would only end up costing consumers more, and that the cable industry should be allowed to wait until less-expensive downloadable security technologies are commercially available.

“We do not believe … that the NCTA should be able to shield itself from the clear directives in the commission’s rules …by continuing to assert that a better approach is on the ever-expanding horizon,” the agency said (http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6456714.html)."

STBs w/integrated security --> one-way CableCARDs --> M-Cards --> DCAS represent milestones that have or will be achieved towards the implementation of a truly open cable environment, which uses OCAP as the secure authentication mechanism to administer DRM to protect the Cable MSOs vested interests and enable them to provide additional HD digital services/options to their subscribers.

STBs w/integrated security --> one-way CableCARDs --> M-Cards --> DCAS represent milestones that have or will be achieved towards the implementation of a truly open cable environment, which uses OCAP as the secure authentication mechanism to administer DRM to protect the Cable MSOs vested interests and enable them to provide additional HD digital services/options to their subscribers.
1) No such thing as a one-way CableCard. The media has frequently reported that first-generation CableCARD 1.0 modules are one-way devices. This is simply not true. (http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html)
2) OCAP is simply not the "secure authentication mechanism" DCAS is.

1) No such thing as a one-way CableCard. Will my TV be able to receive SDV programming?
2) OCAP is simply not the "secure authentication mechanism" DCAS is.Unfortunately, DCAS is not in production mode yet & the FCC has basically told the Cable MSOs that the time has come to s#!+ or get off the pot.

"Unidirectional Digital Cable Products (UDCP) are one-way only devices. That is, they are only capable of receiving our linear broadcast programming such as analog cable, Digital Cable, certain HDTV and premium cable channels like HBO, Cinemax and more. There is, however, no access to any two-way services such as OnDemand programming, the Interactive Programming Guide, Seasonal Sports Packages, Pay-Per-View or Interactive enhanced TV services, such as Games as well as future technologies that may be introduced. All equipment currently available at retail with a CableCARD option falls into this category (http://www.timewarnercable.com/Albany/Products/Cable/CableCard.html)."

Will my TV be able to receive SDV programming?I doubt if your TV will receive SDV - but your cable supplied box will be able to receive SDV - even if it depends on a CableCard for security.

The thing to keep in mind, is that it is the receiving device which must communicate back with the cable system. That would be true of a Digital Cable Ready TV or a STB. First, it must have the hardware to send data, and then it must have the appropriate software. The Time Warner link you provided referred to these as Open Cable Products. None (with the possible very limited exception af a couple of Samsung products) are currently available.

I doubt if your TV will receive SDV - but your cable supplied box will be able to receive SDV - even if it depends on a CableCard for security.

The thing to keep in mind, is that it is the receiving device which must communicate back with the cable system. That would be true of a Digital Cable Ready TV or a STB. First, it must have the hardware to send data, and then it must have the appropriate software. The Time Warner link you provided referred to these as Open Cable Products. None (with the possible very limited exception af a couple of Samsung products) are currently available.Correct, now if only those hopeful TiVo S3 owners would accept the answer to my rhetorical question... we could start looking forward to the S4. ;)

Correct, now if only those hopeful TiVo S3 owners would accept the answer to my rhetorical question... we could start looking forward to the S4. ;)

Will the S4 allow SDV? I think lack of SDV is going to be a BIG surprise to some TiVo owners... when their local cable outfit starts using it.

SDV is alive and strong in my area, and the new TiVo will be limited here. Most everything that has been added in the last year or so is SDV.

SDV is alive and strong in my area, and the new TiVo will be limited here. Most everything that has been added in the last year or so is SDV.

What HD channels are you getting

SDV is alive and strong in my area, and the new TiVo will be limited here. Most everything that has been added in the last year or so is SDV.Due to the fact that the TivoHD is capable of accepting a m-card. I wonder if TWCSC will rent them.

Due to the fact that the TivoHD is capable of accepting a m-card. I wonder if TWCSC will rent them.That's a good question - but I doubt it. Why would they? Even if the TiVo can accept the M-Card, it apparently does not have the capability to use the multi-stream function. The specs for the new TiVo (http://www.tivo.com/whatistivo/tivohd/productspecifications/index.html) have the following footnote: TiVo HD and TiVo Series3™ HD may require two CableCARDs to receive two digital cable channels.Also, SDV reception is, unfortunately, not a function of the M-Card. While all CableCards have had two-way compatibility (http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html) , there are many requirements for two way operation for the host device - and apparently the HD TiVo does not have them.

That's a good question - but I doubt it. Why would they? Even if the TiVo can accept the M-Card, it apparently does not have the capability to use the multi-stream function. That footnote has nothing to do with m-card capability. It is a clause for those who want/think you can watch one HD show while recording another with a 1.0 cable card.
The specs for the new TiVo (http://www.tivo.com/whatistivo/tivohd/productspecifications/index.html) have the following footnote: Also, SDV reception is, unfortunately, not a function of the M-Card. URL=http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html]While all CableCards have had two-way compatibility[/URL] , there are many requirements for two way operation for the host device - and apparently the HD TiVo does not have them.So how do you explain all of those 8300HDC boxes that have m-cards installed and running the Navigator software?

So how do you explain all of those 8300HDC boxes that have m-cards installed and running the Navigator software?
The 8300HDC is a two-way capable host device. The cable company issues a single M-Card which is capable of decrypting multiple streams (in the case of the dual tuner 8300HDC, this is two streams). The 8300HDC is the device that enables viewing of of SDV channels. It could have been designed to only take an S-card if the M-card spec didn't exist...in which case it would require two S-cards to operate both tuners.

That footnote has nothing to do with m-card capability. It is a clause for those who want/think you can watch one HD show while recording another with a 1.0 cable card.I just heard from someone who does have the new HD TiVo and he confirms that the manual states that the box can use a single M-Card.
So how do you explain all of those 8300HDC boxes that have m-cards installed and running the Navigator software?Those boxes have always been designed for two-way operation. (But, perhaps I don't understand your comment).

This could be a very good thing ...

http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/656012.html

This could be a very good thing ...

http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/656012.html

We can only hope. To have a non-sat competitor for the wretched TWC would be a delight.

We can only hope. To have a non-sat competitor for the wretched TWC would be a delight.

The only real value of having AT&T enter the marketplace for video services is that it will force TWC to provide a competitive product. DirecTV's HD roll out will also have significant impact in accomplishing that.

At the end of the day, TWC doesn't do a bad job, their picture quality on both HD and digital SD is far superior to what D* or E* currently offer, and AT&T's U-Verse technology is plauged with chokepoints and shortcomings. It ain't no FIOS, that's for sure.

The 8300HDC is a two-way capable host device. The cable company issues a single M-Card which is capable of decrypting multiple streams (in the case of the dual tuner 8300HDC, this is two streams). The 8300HDC is the device that enables viewing of of SDV channels. It could have been designed to only take an S-card if the M-card spec didn't exist...in which case it would require two S-cards to operate both tuners.

Very minor point, but important. I'm pretty sure that SDV functionality is NOT hardware dependant; there has to be hundreds of thousands of 8300HDs installed in my city and I seriously doubt SDV "needs" that existing hardware to be replaced. We "know" that right now 8300HDs running SARA can do SDV, so it's really a software issue.

While I could easily se the TiVo software being smoother than Passport, most of the capabilities of it are being delivered on the current software, albeit not as smoothly. So you calculate the price differential (as additional monthly cost) to determine value. Simple question. BUT, lacking SDV seems to be to essentially preclude a TiVo (the assumption is that number for HD channels being delivered is a far more critical issue than more money for smoother software).

That's a good question - but I doubt it. Why would they? Even if the TiVo can accept the M-Card, it apparently does not have the capability to use the multi-stream function. The specs for the new TiVo (http://www.tivo.com/whatistivo/tivohd/productspecifications/index.html) have the following footnote: Also, SDV reception is, unfortunately, not a function of the M-Card. While all CableCards have had two-way compatibility (http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html) , there are many requirements for two way operation for the host device - and apparently the HD TiVo does not have them.

Looks like they do

TWCSC M Card Image (http://www.timewarnercable.com/Model/Products/Cable/CableCard_FAQs.html#whyIs)

I talked to a TWC rep a few minutes ago and asked him if they supply S or M cards and he didn't know what that meant. He then said it must be M b/c we have two-way communication. lol He was just thinking about the 8300 I guess. Looks like they are working on "Open cable products" and TWC is predicting 4th Q Q this year or 1st Q next year.

TWC UDCP and OCP (http://www.timewarnercable.com/Corporate/Products/CableCard/CableCard.html)

Does anyway with TWCSC have an TiVoHD working without issue?

"We are in discussions with TWC to distribute all Starz HD channels as well as Starz On Demand and Encore On Demand services that contain a strong component of HD movies. However, TWC has not yet made such commitments and when they do, they will be rolled out on a market by market basis. Therefore, if you would like to receive the full complement of Starz HD and Starz and Encore HD On Demand services, I suggest you let the general manager of your local system as well as Melinda Witmer (SVP, programming) and Sam Howe (Chief Marketing Officer) of TWC know your desire for such services."


Thanks for your interest and please keep watching Starz.
Ed Huguez | Starz Entertainment

Originally Posted by davehancock
That's a good question - but I doubt it. Why would they? Even if the TiVo can accept the M-Card, it apparently does not have the capability to use the multi-stream function. The specs for the new TiVo have the following footnote: Also, SDV reception is, unfortunately, not a function of the M-Card. While all CableCards have had two-way compatibility , there are many requirements for two way operation for the host device - and apparently the HD TiVo does not have them.Looks like they do

TWCSC M Card Image (http://www.timewarnercable.com/Model/Products/Cable/CableCard_FAQs.html#whyIs) Not sure what the link has to do with the TiVo accepting the M-Card as nothing was there specifically about it (the M-Card).

But, I've since found out in a local forum from someone who purchased the new ($299) HD TiVo that that unit does indeed accept and use the M-Card (the disclaimer on the TiVo web site notwithstanding). But apparently older TiVos (such as the S-3) do not use the M-Card (actually, they will use the card - but only in the single stream mode).

I talked to a TWC rep a few minutes ago and asked him if they supply S or M cards and he didn't know what that meant. He then said it must be M b/c we have two-way communication. lol He was just thinking about the 8300 I guess. Looks like they are working on "Open cable products" and TWC is predicting 4th Q Q this year or 1st Q next year.

TWC UDCP and OCP (http://www.timewarnercable.com/Corporate/Products/CableCard/CableCard.html) UDCP is what TiVo is now. OCP is OCAP. This is being selectively rolled out now (Navigator). There is one cable box from Samsung that has been announced for sale - but I don't know if it is available in stores yet. But it is just a box (not a DVR). But more will be coming.

Not sure what the link has to do with the TiVo accepting the M-Card as nothing was there specifically about it (the M-Card).

Nothing at all, only that you first have to have an M card to put in your TiVoHD. I was supplying the link to only show TWC might have M cards. As for TiVoHD and M cards, yes, it will take two S cards in the front or a M card in the back. I could of sworn I saw an image on the TiVo site showing the M card slot on the back so I thought that was a done deal. I thought the rub was actually finding a cable company that supplies the M card. I'm still unclear if TWC has M card or S cards???

But, I've since found out in a local forum from someone who purchased the new ($299) HD TiVo that that unit does indeed accept and use the M-Card (the disclaimer on the TiVo web site notwithstanding). But apparently older TiVos (such as the S-3) do not use the M-Card (actually, they will use the card - but only in the single stream mode).

Yes, you are correct but I didn't realize the S3 would accept the M card.

UDCP is what TiVo is now. OCP is OCAP. This is being selectively rolled out now (Navigator). There is one cable box from Samsung that has been announced for sale - but I don't know if it is available in stores yet. But it is just a box (not a DVR). But more will be coming.
Yes, this sounds consistent with what I have been reading. It sounds like to get functionality just like your cable providers box, you need an M card and a OCP compliant device. Is that correct?

Originally Posted by davehancock
UDCP is what TiVo is now. OCP is OCAP. This is being selectively rolled out now (Navigator). There is one cable box from Samsung that has been announced for sale - but I don't know if it is available in stores yet. But it is just a box (not a DVR). But more will be coming.
Yes, this sounds consistent with what I have been reading. It sounds like to get functionality just like your cable providers box, you need an M card and a OCP compliant device. Is that correct?Yes. Except that in about a year the M-Card will start to be replaced by DCAS (Downloadable Conditional Access Software). At that point, boxes designed for DCAS will not need CableCards (in fact, won't have CableCard slots). This is not a big deal - the thing that is needed is OCAP. It really doesn't matter much (other than the monthly rental on the card) is M-Card, 2 S-Cards, or DCAS is used by the box.

Yes. Except that in about a year the M-Card will start to be replaced by DCAS (Downloadable Conditional Access Software). At that point, boxes designed for DCAS will not need CableCards (in fact, won't have CableCard slots). This is not a big deal - the thing that is needed is OCAP. It really doesn't matter much (other than the monthly rental on the card) is M-Card, 2 S-Cards, or DCAS is used by the box.


I highly doubt DCAS will be ready in a year. The cable companies have been telling the FCC that four about three years now and so far there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

I highly doubt DCAS will be ready in a year. The cable companies have been telling the FCC that four about three years now and so far there is no light at the end of the tunnel.Except that cable now has a motivation: the extra costs of the CableCards in the boxes that they supply. But you may be right. I just wanted to point out that there is something beyond the M-Card.

Yes. Except that in about a year the M-Card will start to be replaced by DCAS (Downloadable Conditional Access Software). At that point, boxes designed for DCAS will not need CableCards (in fact, won't have CableCard slots). This is not a big deal - the thing that is needed is OCAP. It really doesn't matter much (other than the monthly rental on the card) is M-Card, 2 S-Cards, or DCAS is used by the box.

A year? Why am I so skeptical about the timing <g>?

The most obvious question is the installed base of both integrated and non-integrated security boxes out there... will DCAS work on both, one or neither? Logic says it should work on all, but logic and the cable industry...

A year? Why am I so skeptical about the timing <g>?I can understand that - but see my last post.

The most obvious question is the installed base of both integrated and non-integrated security boxes out there... will DCAS work on both, one or neither? Logic says it should work on all, but logic and the cable industry...To use DCAS, the box must be designed for it. The last I heard, it will require a custom chip in the box. So, DCAS will only work with new boxes. This should not be a problem though, when DCAS rolls out, the legacy boxes, will still operate with the security scheme that they already have (be it Integrated Security, two S-Cards, or one M-Card).

This thread is going off the rails. All this hardware discussion belongs in hardware. There's little enough actual HD news being announced on TWC and it's going to get drowned in m-card discussions. As shown above when Andy posted his news.

my response:

thank you for responding.
Unfortunately I am unable to swith to DirecTV, as sad as it is here in NYC TWC doesn't even have bandwidth for Starz OnDemand as well as any kind on HD OnDemand. And Witmer doesn't even respond to customers emails about HD channels. (I and others have tried)

thank you, Andy


Response from Starz"

"Don’t give up. Keep bugging them. It works over time, especially bugging the local marketing and management. The president of New York system is Barry Rosenblum. TWC NY will be rolling out switched digital over the next year which will increase bandwidth efficiency and ability to add many HD services to compete with Directv. Good luck."

Ed Huguez | Starz Entertainment


Well at least we know starz is talking to TWC, and that their words are going in one ear and out the other!

This thread is going off the rails. All this hardware discussion belongs in hardware. There's little enough actual HD news being announced on TWC and it's going to get drowned in m-card discussions. As shown above when Andy posted his news.

I agree 100%

I agree 100%


second that

"We are in discussions with TWC to distribute all Starz HD channels as well as Starz On Demand and Encore On Demand services that contain a strong component of HD movies. However, TWC has not yet made such commitments and when they do, they will be rolled out on a market by market basis. Therefore, if you would like to receive the full complement of Starz HD and Starz and Encore HD On Demand services, I suggest you let the general manager of your local system as well as Melinda Witmer (SVP, programming) and Sam Howe (Chief Marketing Officer) of TWC know your desire for such services."


Thanks for your interest and please keep watching Starz.
Ed Huguez | Starz Entertainment

I emailed her concerning Starz . I have emailed her before with no response to my questions or comments

I emailed her concerning Starz . I have emailed her before with no response to my questions or comments

I emailed her twice and didn't get a response either time. I heard she was out shopping for an HD set. ;)

I emailed her twice and didn't get a response either time. I heard she was out shopping for an HD set. ;)

Maybe she is too busy negotiating contracts rather than sitting at her desk answering e-mails that can't be answered anyway. Her predecessor seemed to have more "free time" on his hands. ;) ;) ;)

We are a month away till DirecTV starts launching a ridiculous amount of HD channels. We still have little information from Corporate.

Their has to be close to 100 people in this thread.
It's about that time again people, everyone send something, anything!


Melinda.Witmer@twcable.com

We only have 14 hd channels so i'm waiting on dtv. We should get espn2 next week. :mad:

We are a month away till DirecTV starts launching a ridiculous amount of HD channels. We still have little information from Corporate.

Their has to be close to 100 people in this thread.
It's about that time again people, everyone send something, anything!


Melinda.Witmer@twcable.com

As has been explained before, TWC will hold their cards tight until the last minute regarding channel launches for a variety of strategic reasons.

And, let me remind you, in order to get the "ridiculous" amount of HD channels requires a "ridiculous" amount of hardware upgrades for the customer, so the vast majority of the installed DirecTV base won't see these channels anytime soon.

So the eminent threat is not as dire as you suggest.

And, let me remind you, in order to get the "ridiculous" amount of HD channels requires a "ridiculous" amount of hardware upgrades for the customer, so the vast majority of the installed DirecTV base won't see these channels anytime soon.

So, very similar to the TWC situation then. Except that DirecTV customers can just go out and buy their upgrades. They don't have to sit around waiting for the company to upgrade their own hardware at some undisclosed and random point in the future.

I guess that's a "no go" on the email from you?

I guess that's a "no go" on the email from you?

That would be an affirmative. What am I going to tell her that she doesn't already know? What is she going to tell me that hasn't been released publicly?

So, very similar to the TWC situation then. Except that DirecTV customers can just go out and buy their upgrades. They don't have to sit around waiting for the company to upgrade their own hardware at some undisclosed and random point in the future.

A TWC customer can also go out and buy a DirecTV "upgrade" if he/she doesn't want to sit around and wait. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

A TWC customer can also go out and buy a DirecTV "upgrade" if he/she doesn't want to sit around and wait. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Eh, not all of them. Don't try and convince me, tell mother nature and the forest sat 10 feet away from my building.

When will TW start the major roll-out of SDV programming & add a significant number of HD channels?

When will TW start the major roll-out of SDV programming & add a significant number of HD channels?

Somewhere around half of their divisions are supposed to be rolled out by the end this year, with the rest by the end of 2008. Just a guess, but I would think that we'll see a modest increase in HD channels this year in most markets, with major activity next year.

There are major software and hardware upgrades required, and hopefully performance verification and testing. I'm sure they have SWAT teams going from region to region implementing the various technical requirements.

And of course, a major piece is converting to Navigator, which has not been without issues.

Here's one thing that doesn't get discussed, but is really profound. By the end of next year, 100% of TWC's subscribers will be able to access HD programming by simply picking up a box at the cable office, or perhaps even buying one at Best Buy.

D* and E* will only have a small number of subscribers with HD capabilties. The rest will require significant hardware installation upgrades before they can enjoy access to all D* and E* have to offer, which may involve considerable upfront cost and/or commitment.

In other words, by the end of next year, cable will be way out in front as the preferred HD provider.

We were one of first to get SDV ,and still have less HD than other systems. SDV has yet to provide anything other than "start over" on a few HD channels on select programs.

FWIW:TWCSC is a SARA system without Navigator.


I do not see TWC being any sort of HD leader. There track record speaks for itself. OnDemand crazy and PPV crazy seems to be a TWC priorty.

Any news on CNN HD on TWC? I'm sure if TWC gets it, my TWC will get it. Mine recently shut down all of the analouge cable, so it has loads of bandwidth for like 100 uncompressed HD channels. TWC still sucks programming wise though.

D* and E* will only have a small number of subscribers with HD capabilties. The rest will require significant hardware installation upgrades before they can enjoy access to all D* and E* have to offer, which may involve considerable upfront cost and/or commitment.

In other words, by the end of next year, cable will be way out in front as the preferred HD provider.

lol

Any news on CNN HD on TWC? I'm sure if TWC gets it, my TWC will get it. Mine recently shut down all of the analouge cable, so it has loads of bandwidth for like 100 uncompressed HD channels. TWC still sucks programming wise though.seamus, please add your location to your profile (Click on "UserCP" at top right of screen). When you say things like "my TWC" we'd like to know what you mean.

I haven't heard of ANY TW system shutting down analog cable, which makes me doubt this. But there can always be a first. Most TW systems are simulcasting SD on both analog & digital - so the digital boxes tune in the digital channels, but if the cable connects directly to the RF in on the TV, you get the analog channel.

BTW: ALL HD channels are compressed to some degree. Digital wouldn't work unless they did. The question is, does the cable system apply additional compression? Generally, TW has not (but that can change too).

Someday, I would like to see a single list of all of the existing, national HD channels that TWC does not carry.

I'm in the Staten Island TWC. Staten Island TWC is all Digital, everybody had to swich from their analouge to digital boxes.

Edit:

Engadget article about it:

edit, won't let me post link

I think I can post it now:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/04/23/the-time-warner-staten-island-project-tons-of-hd/

Someday, I would like to see a single list of all of the existing, national HD channels that TWC does not carry.

That list has been posted in various threads...I know I've seen it in the TWC NYC thread in the local HD channels forum.

I think I can post it now:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/04/23/the-time-warner-staten-island-project-tons-of-hd/

Thanks - as I said: But there can always be a first. And it appears that is the case.

A lot of the new HD channels (like CNN HD) aren't slated to start till September (when the new DirecTV bird goes live). Also, TW has been pretty slow elsewhere to add HD channels even when they did have space.

Yeah, I was just wondering, since they are owned by the same company.

HD Channels In Negotiations with TWC


Food Network-HD - in negotiations
HGTV-HD - in negotiations
Lifetime Movie Network-HD - in negotiations
NFL Network-HD - in negotiations
Big Ten Network-HD - in negotiations
Outdoor Channel 2-HD – is not in the works
Starz Comedy-HD - in negotiations
Starz Edge-HD - in negotiations
Starz Kids & Family-HD - in negotiations


Negotiations Unknown For TWC


HBO2-HD (Launching in September)
HBO Family-HD (Launching in September)
HBO Latino-HD (Launching in September)
HBO Signature-HD (Launching in September)
MoreMax-HD (Launching in September)
The History Channel-HD (Launching in September)
TBS-HD (Launching in September)
CNN-HD (Launching in September)
Cartoon Network-HD (Launching in September)
The Weather Channel-HD (Launching in September)
Animal Planet-HD (Launching in September)
TLC-HD (Launching in September)
The Science Channel-HD (Launching in September)
Discovery Channel-HD (Launching in September)
Sci-Fi-HD (Launching in September)
USA-HD (Launching in September)
Bravo-HD (Launching in September)
MGM-HD (Launching Fall 2007)
Smithsonian-HD (Launching Fall 2007)
The Tennis Channel-HD (Launching in December)
TBN-HD (Launching in Q4 2007)
RFD-HD (Launching in Q4 2007)
Toon Disney-HD (Launching in Q1 2008)
MavTV-HD (Launching in Q1 2008)
Hallmark-HD (Launching in Q1 2008)
HBO Comedy-HD (Launching in Q2 2008)
HBO Zone-HD (Launching in Q2 2008)
ActionMAX-HD (Launching in Q2 2008)
ThrillerMAX-HD (Launching in Q2 2008)
WMAX-HD (Launching in Q2 2008)
@MAX-HD (Launching in Q2 2008)
5StarMAX-HD (Launching in Q2 2008)
OuterMAX-HD (Launching in Q2 2008)
2 Unknown Discovery Channels (Launching in 2008)
Chiller-HD (Launching in 2008)
CNBC-HD (Launching in January)
SI TV-HD (Launching in 2008)
MSNBC-HD (TBA)
FX-HD
Speed-HD
Vatican-HD
BBC-HD
Al Jazeera-HD
IFC-HD
NHL Network-HD

VOOM Channels
Rave HD
Equator HD
Gallery HD
Animania HD
Rush HD
Ultra HD
Monsters HD
HD News
Film Fest HD
Kung Fu HD
WorldSport HD
World Cinema HD
Gameplay HD
Family Room HD
Treasure HD


Known Deals Done For TWC

HBO-HD
Cinemax-HD
Showtime-HD
The Movie Channel-HD
Starz-HD
ESPN-HD
ESPN2-HD
HDNet
HDNet Movies
MOJO
Universal-HD
TNT-HD
DHD
MHD
A&E-HD
Golf/Versus-HD
WealthTV-HD - Currently TWC has a deal only for HD-VOD content & only in San Antonio
National Geographic-HD - has been added only in TWC of Hawaii
Sleuth-HD - Has the rights to, Launch date TBA.
ESPN News-HD - coming to TWC in Q1 2008
Disney Channel-HD - coming to TWC in Q1 2008
ABC Family-HD - coming to TWC in Q1 2008

Skipping the VOOM channels, what are the EXISTING, national HD channels that TWC does not offer? We complain here as if it is a very long list. Are people shaking their fists at TWC without sufficient justification?

Skipping the VOOM channels, what are the EXISTING, national HD channels that TWC does not offer? We complain here as if it is a very long list. Are people shaking their fists at TWC without sufficient justification?


TWC offers different channels on each and every system.

Skipping the VOOM channels, what are the EXISTING, national HD channels that TWC does not offer? We complain here as if it is a very long list. Are people shaking their fists at TWC without sufficient justification?

Because adding one channel to one market does not constitute it being "offered."

TWC have long practiced the idea that all they need to do is add something to one of their limited test markets and they consider the job done.

Starz HD being a prime example of it only existing in a handful of areas despite it being three years old. This market not being one of them.

I'm in Manhattan and don't have HD on Demand yet. TWC is advertising this new channel on their other on demand channels, so it must be available somewhere. Does anyone know if there are plans to add it to the Manhattan system soon?

Thanks.

I'm in Manhattan and don't have HD on Demand yet. TWC is advertising this new channel on their other on demand channels, so it must be available somewhere. Does anyone know if there are plans to add it to the Manhattan system soon?

Thanks.

HD OnDemand is not expected in NYC for a while, but other TWC divisions across the country might offer HD OnDemand.


JeffNYC, join us NYC TWC subscribers here:

New York, NY - TWC
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=297592&page=394&pp=30

I'm in the Staten Island TWC. Staten Island TWC is all Digital, everybody had to swich from their analouge to digital boxes.

S.I. & Western Queens in NYC shut off their standard analog cable so far.

seamus21514, join us NYC TWC subscribers here:

New York, NY - TWC
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=297592&page=394&pp=30

This isn't really HD, but When will TWC pick up BBC World? FiOS and A few scattered cable outlets, including CablevisionNYC have it already.

Because adding one channel to one market does not constitute it being "offered."

TWC have long practiced the idea that all they need to do is add something to one of their limited test markets and they consider the job done.

Starz HD being a prime example of it only existing in a handful of areas despite it being three years old. This market not being one of them.

It is true that adding a channel to one market (or a few) does not constitute it being "offered."

Don't you think, however, that the capacities of the individual local systems is the primary factor in limiting the number of channels carried. If I ran TWC programming, I would attempt to look into the future to determine which channels to load on the systems. In so doing, I would seek to avoid adding channels, now, that would eventually block highly desired channels arriving in the relatively near future.

I don't think bandwidth management is a term TWC is familiar with. Our local TWC affiliate just announced it will be adding a weather subchannel (7.2) to its analog lineup. As it stands right now, the CBS-HD affiliate (7.1) and weather subchannel shares space on one channel with two other HD stations (for a total of 58 mbps being crammed into a 45 mbps channel). Meanwhile, the weather subchannel (3 mbps) gets its own analog channel in addition to being carried as a subchannel on the digital tier -- space that could have been used for two or three new HD stations. No more room for HD I guess, as we are stuck with only 12 HD channels, 6 of which are locals and three of the six are PBS affiliates. TWC is going backwards in my area.

Then a retention rep calls me today and swears up and down that the big 10 network will be here by Aug. 30.

Don't you think, however, that the capacities of the individual local systems is the primary factor in limiting the number of channels carried. If I ran TWC programming, I would attempt to look into the future to determine which channels to load on the systems. In so doing, I would seek to avoid adding channels, now, that would eventually block highly desired channels arriving in the relatively near future.
With SDV this is irrelevant. Signed agreements are the limiting factor.

As it stands right now, the CBS-HD affiliate (7.1) and weather subchannel shares space on one channel with two other HD stations (for a total of 58 mbps being crammed into a 45 mbps channel). I don't understand your logic here: On QAM, a HD channel is 18Mbps, so two of them make 36Mbps. A QAM can handle 38Mbps, so after the two HD channels there is 2Mbps left for that weather channel. I don't understand the 58Mbps, or 45Mbps parts.

I don't understand your logic here: On QAM, a HD channel is 18Mbps, so two of them make 36Mbps. A QAM can handle 38Mbps, so after the two HD channels there is 2Mbps left for that weather channel. I don't understand the 58Mbps, or 45Mbps parts.

He's saying there 3 HD channels on that QAM, plus the weather channel(which hes saying is 4mbps)

Don't you think, however, that the capacities of the individual local systems is the primary factor in limiting the number of channels carried. If I ran TWC programming, I would attempt to look into the future to determine which channels to load on the systems. In so doing, I would seek to avoid adding channels, now, that would eventually block highly desired channels arriving in the relatively near future.

The limitations of each market are the fault of TWC as a whole. It's something they should have rectified long ago if they were as aware of the situation as they claim. We know they can boost capacity when they need to. That happens whenever a little FiOS appears in the neighborhood.

The addition of channels that don't block more requested services is logic that falls apart when you turn on your television and see MyNetworkTV in HD. It's a similar situation all over. When some area are waiting for premium services and channels that have been HD for years but instead get A&E and MHD.

He's saying there 3 HD channels on that QAM, plus the weather channel(which hes saying is 4mbps)I missed the 3 HD channels, but he said that the weather was 3mbps, so that doesn't quite add up to 58mbps. Not a big deal, but I still don't get the 45Mbps.

I've heard of some cable systems putting 3 HD channels on one QAM, but (till now) none of them have been TW.

I missed the 3 HD channels, but he said that the weather was 3mbps, so that doesn't quite add up to 58mbps. Not a big deal, but I still don't get the 45Mbps.

I've heard of some cable systems putting 3 HD channels on one QAM, but (till now) none of them have been TW.

Till now?

TWC NYC has shoved 3 HD channels into 1 QAM for years.
(They only separate the OTA channels into 2 per QAM channel... along with their digital subchannels...)

skr3w SDV, if they would just switch a couple of analogs to SD-digital it would free up more than enough BW for the channels that they've "contracted" for already

Which channels would you like to tell Grandma she's losing on her analog TV?

Which channels would you like to tell Grandma she's losing on her analog TV?

Gramdma jsut gets the locals and weather on analog.....everything else goes digital baby!

Which channels would you like to tell Grandma she's losing on her analog TV?

I am no grandma, and I sure don't want to lose analog. It would essentially disable 3 of my TVs if they cut it off. Having to pay 5 rental fees for cable boxes is unacceptable. I still contend that this is the greatest advantage cable has over satellite.

I am no grandma, and I sure don't want to lose analog. It would essentially disable 3 of my TVs if they cut it off. Having to pay 5 rental fees for cable boxes is unacceptable. I still contend that this is the greatest advantage cable has over satellite.

Why would it disable your tv's if you can buy $50 boxes to avoid it? The taxpayers are even going to give you 2 $40 credits for boxes. Should be no problem for you whatsoever.

The taxpayers are even going to give you 2 $40 credits for boxes. Should be no problem for you whatsoever. I know :rolleyes:
What a scam that is, another unnecessary burden on the taxpayer in a country filled with too many outstretched empty hands looking to be filled.

Now folks can slice a piece of their government cheese and watch Oprah on their 19 inch Quasar. :rolleyes:

Why are sales of these displays still allowed? :confused: Before they go into my wallet to subsidize this there should be absolutely no way anyone can still buy an analog set.

Why would it disable your tv's if you can buy $50 boxes to avoid it? The taxpayers are even going to give you 2 $40 credits for boxes. Should be no problem for you whatsoever.Because the boxes to which you are referring will only convert ATSC signals and not decode digital cable channels that will substitute for what he was receiving via analog cable.

dch6416's are in my time warner cable system texas and they dont use the navigator guide instead use the iguide.

Because the boxes to which you are referring will only convert ATSC signals and not decode digital cable channels that will substitute for what he was receiving via analog cable.

I didn't realize that the boxes would not act as converter boxes (digital to analog) for cable as it does for over the air. In that case, I don't blame anyone for being unhappy with being forced to rent a box that wasn't needed before.

Till now?

TWC NYC has shoved 3 HD channels into 1 QAM for years.
Same with TWC Southern CA

Its been mentioned several times in this thread alone. A simple search for RATE SHAPING should return all relevant results.

I will likely be moving to E* when they add Animal Planet and Science Channel in HD unless TWC reveals plans to add these soon.

I will likely be moving to E* when they add Animal Planet and Science Channel in HD unless TWC reveals plans to add these soon.
Ok, I'll alert the media.

Ok, I'll alert the media.
you can tell them that i'm switching to d* this weekend, although i'm sure those crazy MSM types won't report such important groundbreaking news :p

Got a letter today that Time Warner in Binghamton/Elmira will have ESPN2 HD and SNY HD on Aug. 31. They'll also be adding ESPNU on that date.

. . . I don't blame anyone for being unhappy with being forced to rent a box that wasn't needed before.I agree whole-heartedly. In my case in upstate NY, Time Warner does do a digital simulcast of the basic channels. If they would only re-claim some of the analog channels in the basic tier from let's say channels from 36 to 82 it would allow at least 46 6-MHz channels (or 92 to 132 HD channels; with the locals at least they do multiplex 2 - 3 HD channels here) and if they unecrypted the current basic tier so that new TVs with QAM tuners could receive basic channels without renting a converter box, I would be OK with that. In the next few years, the best case would be that truly bi-directional digital-cable-ready host devices will appear so that the bedroom or kitchen TVs will be able to receive all the services I subscribe to without having to rent multiple cable boxes for a monthly fee.

Thanks to MLB (which blacks out Baltimore Orioles and Washington Nationals games in NC) and TWC-- for robbing us of Bonds record breaking home run last night. I'm not the biggest Bonds fan, but this is history. The game was on ESPN2 (which was blacked out locally by MLB), and on MASN (which TWC refuses to place on basic cable). So ... we're screwed again.

If any of you are sick of the lame excuses by TWC ... in this case, that MASN is not worthy of a basic cable spot because it's a "regional sports, niche" channel (uh ... then what are Fox Sports South-- channel 50, and the Golf Channel-- channel 51??)-- then go to:

http://www.playballnow.org

By the way ... every other satellite and cable system in the region (Dish, DirectTV, Charter, Comcast, etc. etc.) has placed MASN on basic cable. MASN not only shows baseball, but also other sports ... including football, basketball, etc. for many NC universites.

Add to this the continued ridiculous position they are taking with the NFL Network (also shown by just about every satellite and cable provider except TWC), and they wonder why their subscriber base dropped drastically over the past 6 months (even with the artificial subscriber increase from the Adelphia acquisition)-- not that they care ... obviously. If you'd like to send TWC a message about getting the NFL Network (which they will promptly ignore), go to:

http://www.iwantnflnetwork.com/

For those of you who believe all cable providers are basically the same ... I was in northern VA this weekend, and Cox cable is far superior to TWC in all measurable ways:

-better HD PQ
-more HD channels
-better SD PQ
-better on screen guide
-cheaper

You should also take a look at Comcast-- same as above.

Disclaimer ... before you TWC honks reply with your "this local system is better than that local system" comments-- I know there are differences between regions. I have TWC in NC-- that's my basis for comparison. Check out Comcast Chicago, and Cox in northern Virginia to TWC/NC and form your own opinion.

Actually, while you couldn't watch the game, EPSN (1) was showing all of Bonds' at bats, so I did see the homer last night in High Def on TWC in NC. I understand your complaint, but that's a stupid MLB rule. It's silly for Nationals games to be blacked out in NC given how it's basically Braves country.

seamus, please add your location to your profile (Click on "UserCP" at top right of screen). When you say things like "my TWC" we'd like to know what you mean.

I haven't heard of ANY TW system shutting down analog cable, which makes me doubt this. But there can always be a first. Most TW systems are simulcasting SD on both analog & digital - so the digital boxes tune in the digital channels, but if the cable connects directly to the RF in on the TV, you get the analog channel.

BTW: ALL HD channels are compressed to some degree. Digital wouldn't work unless they did. The question is, does the cable system apply additional compression? Generally, TW has not (but that can change too).

I think a good part of the issue is that as a corporate entity, TWC is a perfect example of not telling it's customers what's actually happening and in many cases outright lying... er misspeaking. Yes all monopolies do this, but when you are totally beholden to them and only them, it sure SEEMS it's more egregious!

One part of my city got 4 new HD channels the rest of us don't because they made an effort to shut down ALL analog channels. Which means they got everyone with an old analog box to swap them for digital ones. That would leave the very basic customers (without a box) needing only 7 analogs (supposedly we have something like 75 analogs).

Got a letter today that Time Warner in Binghamton/Elmira will have ESPN2 HD and SNY HD on Aug. 31. They'll also be adding ESPNU on that date.

They don't have ESPN2 or SNY in HD yet?!?

Wow, i didn't know TWC could be like that, but I guess it's b/c of bandwith.

They don't have ESPN2 or SNY in HD yet?!?

Wow, i didn't know TWC could be like that, but I guess it's b/c of bandwith.

That sums up the situation almost everywhere. What you get can be completely different to what your neighbor gets.

My town is I think still the only location in the TW Raleigh market that gets Bravo. And I'm just talking the SD version. The chances of the HD version appearing are smaller than TW merging with Verizon.

Not sure what it all means but TW Austin has the following changes, effective 8/31, posted on their website:

Add ESPN U to Channel 436 (Digital Basic)
Add HD Titles in the Guide (TIG) to Channel 1700
Add HD1 to HD10 to Channels 1701 to 1710
Move analog backup channels for Digital simulcast channels from Channels 1702-1744 to Channels 1802 to 1844 (KTBC, KVUE, KXAN, KEYE, City Access, TY Guide Channel, KLRU, Public Access #1, Public Access #2, KNVA, Public Access #3, ACC Access, QVC, HSN, Lifetime, Oxygen, WE, SoapNet, E!, HGTV, Food, Travel Channel, Discovery, TLC, Animal Planet, ABC Family, ION, Hallmark, TVLand, NICK, Disney, Cartoon Network, News 8 RadarNOW)

So, they are freeing up channels in the 1700's and adding titles but no new channels announced?

That sums up the situation almost everywhere. What you get can be completely different to what your neighbor gets.

My town is I think still the only location in the TW Raleigh market that gets Bravo. And I'm just talking the SD version. The chances of the HD version appearing are smaller than TW merging with Verizon.

Bravo HD does not exist. Bravo HD is Universal HD. They did the change over a year or two ago.

Bravo HD does not exist. Bravo HD is Universal HD. They did the change over a year or two ago.

Does NBC-Uni have a hook into Bravo? Some of the stuff that goes on SciFi is being done in HD on UnHD... and I'm actually VERY happy about that (being a SciFi fan)! NBC-Uni owns the SciFi channel.

Bravo HD does not exist. Bravo HD is Universal HD. They did the change over a year or two ago.

Not on DirecTV. Bravo HD is apparently going to appear in their upcoming September HD tsunami. And they already have UHD.

http://www.tvpredictions.com/directvcourt080907.htm

Update:
DIRECTV & Time Warner Settle HD Lawsuit
DIRECTV and Time Warner issued statements this afternoon saying they have settled their lawsuit over High-Definition ads. The companies would not release the terms of the settlement and added that today's court ruling (see below) did not force the agreement.

So it's unclear if DIRECTV will continue to run ads saying that its high-def picture and service is better than cable.

Below is our earlier article on today's court ruling.

News
Court: DIRECTV Can Run Online HD Ads
But an appeals court upholds an earlier order banning DIRECTV from airing TV commercials.
By Swanni

Washington, D.C. (August 9, 2007) -- DIRECTV and Time Warner both won partial victories today when a federal appeals court said a lower court had wrongly decided the satcaster couldn't run certain online ads promoting its HDTV service.

However, the appeals court also upheld the lower court's decision that DIRECTV could not run TV commercials in Time Warner Cable markets that say its HD picture quality is better than cable.

The court decisions stem from a Time Warner lawsuit against DIRECTV alleging the satcaster is falsely claiming its high-def service is superior to cable. (See update above.)


Jessica Simpson telling viewers that DIRECTV HD is better than cable.

The appeals court today said the lower court erred in ruling that DIRECTV could not run online ads that suggested cable TV's HD picture was blurry.

The court said the ads were purposely exaggerated and therefore would not deceive anyone into thinking that cable's picture was actually blurry.

"The Internet advertisements' depictions of cable are not just inaccurate; they are not even remotely realistic," the appeals court said, according to The Wall Street Journal. "It is difficult to imagine that any consumer, whatever the level of sophistication, would actually be fooled by the Internet advertisements into thinking that cable's picture quality is so poor that the image is 'nearly entirely obscure(d)."'

But the newspaper reports that the appeals court upheld the lower court's preliminary injunction against DIRECTV's TV spots promoting HDTV that feature William Shatner and Jessica Simpson

"hopefully TWC could now focus on adding more HD rather than fighting people who do"

Don't bet on it. There's no reason to believe they would change their mindset-- i.e. 'We (TWC) could care less what our customers want'.

Not only are the satellite providers continuing their aggressive HD strategy-- check out the other cable providers. Comcast has added at least 5 (and as many as 7) new national HD channels this year. Same for Cox, and others.

Instead we're fed the same old crap-- "TWC has better technology" (uh- no they don't. I've seen Cox and Comcast and they are much better-- PQ, guide, variety, etc.). "TWC is just trying to keep customer costs down"-- (uh-- do you really believe that? TWC is the most expensive cable provider per sub-- it's a documented fact). "TWC is into quality not quantity"-- (uh-- that's code for "we don't want to have to pay for anything popular").

Instead we're fed the same old crap-- "TWC has better technology" (uh- no they don't. I've seen Cox and Comcast and they are much better-- PQ, guide, variety, etc.).

Well my parents have the HD-DVR box from Cablevision...and its software is horrible compared to my same 8300HD TWC box with passport. I am jealous that they get National Geo HD though.

Well my parents have the HD-DVR box from Cablevision...and its software is horrible compared to my same 8300HD TWC box with passport. I am jealous that they get National Geo HD though.
They are running what's known as the SARA OS on their box.

Hey Scott, over the past week or so, I seem to notice the frequency of audio drop-outs/skippage has decreased a bit... you notice anything out of Man South? The pisser is that over the past 6-8 hours of viewing, it only happens on SD channels!

http://www.tvpredictions.com/twnfl081207.htm

News
Time Warner & NFL Network Still Fighting
Time Warner customers denied access to high-def games.
By Swanni

Washington, D.C. (August 12, 2007) -- The NFL Network is broadcasting 34 pre-season games and eight regular season games in HD this season. But Time Warner Cable subscribers may not see any of them.

The Corpus Christi Caller-Times reports that the cable operator is still battling the NFL Network over programming fees and package rights. Consequently, Time Warner has not added the channel to its standard or high-def lineup.

At issue is Time Warner's insistence that it offer the channel in a separate sports tier which costs subscribers an additional $8.95 a month.

"There has not been any change or progress in our negotiations," Time Warner spokeswoman Vicki Triplett told the newspaper. "The cost (to carry the NFL Network) is a large amount, so what we want to do is make it to where people who are only interested in sports can pay for it, rather than make all customers pay for it."

But NFL Network spokesman Seth Palansky suggested the cable operator is trying to use the channel to boost its profits.

"Time Warner wants the network on a sports tier -- where fans would have to pay extra," he said. "That's not something we're willing to do -- have our fans exploited for Time Warner's profits."

He added: "Ultimately, we want to deal with Time Warner, but until they prove they have our fans' best interests in mind, we're reluctant to turn the network into a pay-per-view option."

Comcast, the nation's largest cable operator, recently added NFL Network HD (and standard def channel) to its sports tier in select cities. A New York State Supreme Court judge ruled that Comcast could include the NFL Network in its sports tier rather than the basic digital tier, as requested by the network.

(Unlike Time Warner, Comcast had already purchased the rights to carry the channel so they could move it to the sports tier after the judge's decision.)

In his decision, the judge noted that the NFL had awarded DIRECTV with the exclusive rights to carry the NFL Sunday Ticket.

http://www.tvpredictions.com/twnfl081207.htm

News
Time Warner & NFL Network Still Fighting
Time Warner customers denied access to high-def games.
By Swanni

Washington, D.C. (August 12, 2007) -- The NFL Network is broadcasting 34 pre-season games and eight regular season games in HD this season. But Time Warner Cable subscribers may not see any of them.

The Corpus Christi Caller-Times reports that the cable operator is still battling the NFL Network over programming fees and package rights. Consequently, Time Warner has not added the channel to its standard or high-def lineup.

At issue is Time Warner's insistence that it offer the channel in a separate sports tier which costs subscribers an additional $8.95 a month.

"There has not been any change or progress in our negotiations," Time Warner spokeswoman Vicki Triplett told the newspaper. "The cost (to carry the NFL Network) is a large amount, so what we want to do is make it to where people who are only interested in sports can pay for it, rather than make all customers pay for it."

But NFL Network spokesman Seth Palansky suggested the cable operator is trying to use the channel to boost its profits.

"Time Warner wants the network on a sports tier -- where fans would have to pay extra," he said. "That's not something we're willing to do -- have our fans exploited for Time Warner's profits."

He added: "Ultimately, we want to deal with Time Warner, but until they prove they have our fans' best interests in mind, we're reluctant to turn the network into a pay-per-view option."

Comcast, the nation's largest cable operator, recently added NFL Network HD (and standard def channel) to its sports tier in select cities. A New York State Supreme Court judge ruled that Comcast could include the NFL Network in its sports tier rather than the basic digital tier, as requested by the network.

(Unlike Time Warner, Comcast had already purchased the rights to carry the channel so they could move it to the sports tier after the judge's decision.)

In his decision, the judge noted that the NFL had awarded DIRECTV with the exclusive rights to carry the NFL Sunday Ticket.


I can't tell you how good it feels having left Time Warner last month for Dish Network. I can't believe I waited so long.

RE NFL: From my viewpoint, cheers to TW! It seems that Comcast can offer NFL on a extra-cost tier, but NFL insists that ALL TW customers pay for the network (even if they don't want it).

I just dont buy that TWC is "fighting the good fight" for their customers. Just like the NFL rep said, they want people to subscribe to their sports tier, because right now there isnt really anything good on there. If the NFL Network is a "niche" channel as they claim, then why is the Golf Channel on expanded basic? If they dont want their customers to have to pay for something they arent interested in, then why do I have to pay for digital cable just for a handful of channels that I want, or why do I have to pay fpr all 11 HBOs just for HBO-HD? The line they are giving us sounds good, but its incredibly hypocritical when you think about it.

not only that but i think the NFL wants somewhere under $2 bucks per subscriber for nfl network. and then TWC want's to sell to us for $8.95.

what a profit they wanna make!

Including the NFL network among the other things in a sports tier seems entirely reasonable to me, or else put in on pay-per-view. Somebody asked why the golf channel isn't in the sports tier. Fine with me if they moved it. I cna see the excitement in watching football, but I've never seen ay excitement in watching golf. But I know there are people that do want golf, or NFL, or major league baseball, or NASCAR, etc. Seems perfect for a sports tier.


Anything TW can do to hold down or reduce costs for the largest number of people is perfect with me. Of course I don't like paying for an HD tier, or for a cablecard, but I understand that lots of other people don't want to pay for them or don't need them (yet). When something gets to the point where most people want it, or where it is very inexpensive for TW to offer something then that is the time to put it in a standard package of some sort -- in my opinion.

Including the NFL network among the other things in a sports tier seems entirely reasonable to me, or else put in on pay-per-view.

Both the NFL and TWC are being extremely greedy in this. The NFL wants a basic cable slot so that they can get maximum revenue from a per subscriber carriage agreement. TWC, on the other hand, wants to put the NFL Network in a sports tier (which currently has VERY low subscription), knowing that thousands of subs will buy it just for the NFLN. And, then TWC would increase the cost of the sports tier from $2.95 to about $8.95. With the actual cost per subscriber of $.70-$1/sub for the NFLN, that would represent an over $5 profit/sub for TWC.

Face it, TWC sports nuts (I'm one of them)-- this isn't going to happen for us. If you want the NFLN, you need to go to DirectTV or Dish. For those of you that think one side will budge-- why do you think that? It's been 3 years now and neither side really needs the other. TWC doesn't really care what customers want in terms of programming (they've proven that over the years), and will accept the defector rate to satellite. The NFL doesn't need TWC subscribers, when just about every other major cable provider and both satellite carriers are already on board.

In the end, we all could take sides on this. I read many of your posts that say they are happy that TWC is taking a "stand"on this. If that's your opinion-- fine. But, don't be fooled about them doing this for you-- the customer. They are doing this for them-- to make gobs more profit (see above). And, I also read many posts that bash TWC and side with the NFL. I guess I lean slightly there because I see this network as a product. All companies that make something (i.e. a product) have the right to charge what the market bears and demand that their product is properly positioned. They have no interest in the NFLN being, in effect, a PPV option. Why should they when other so-called "sports niche" channels (Golf Channel, Speed Channel, Fox Soccer, etc.) have a basic cable position?

My opinion is that TWC believes they are the product-- and, not just the provider of products. Providers inherantly have a more customer focused attitude (like Comcast, DirectTV, and Dish). I have seen no indication that Time Warner will ever see themselves differently.

Here's some irony for you ... yesterday at 5:00, ABC showed an "NFL Pre-Season Special". It was an NFL Network production-- basically their flag ship show ("NFL Total Access"). I suppose ABC just purchased the show from the NFLN for re-broadcast. All right under TWC's nose

I just dont buy that TWC is "fighting the good fight" for their customers. Just like the NFL rep said, they want people to subscribe to their sports tier, because right now there isnt really anything good on there. If the NFL Network is a "niche" channel as they claim, then why is the Golf Channel on expanded basic? If they dont want their customers to have to pay for something they arent interested in, then why do I have to pay for digital cable just for a handful of channels that I want, or why do I have to pay fpr all 11 HBOs just for HBO-HD? The line they are giving us sounds good, but its incredibly hypocritical when you think about it.

Amen.

I'm happy that TWC is standing firm on the NFL Network. While I think they are doing the right thing for the wrong reasons, I still want them to do the right thing. I am a big sports fan, but I just don't care at all about not getting the NFL Network.

Interesting to me is that the sports tier here in Greensboro only costs $1.95/month, not the $8.95/month listed in that article.

Interesting to me is that the sports tier here in Greensboro only costs $1.95/month, not the $8.95/month listed in that article.

That will change quickly if TWC puts the NFLN on the tier.

I'm happy that TWC is standing firm on the NFL Network. While I think they are doing the right thing for the wrong reasons, I still want them to do the right thing. I am a big sports fan, but I just don't care at all about not getting the NFL Network.

Interesting to me is that the sports tier here in Greensboro only costs $1.95/month, not the $8.95/month listed in that article.

Here's the point ... that $1.95 will be $8.95 if TWC had their way and stuffed the NFL Network into a sports tier. In other words, they will jack up the cost of the sports tier (which currently has little to no subscribers)-- knowing that NFL fans will pay for it. That means an additional $7 per subscriber. The NFL wants to charge no more than $1 per subscriber for their network. Do the math-- TWC would make $5 or $6 PER SUBSCRIBER if they were able to do this.

So, TWC is not "standing firm". They are looking for a way to gauge you and me even more than they do now. Stop falling for this crap.

So, TWC is not "standing firm". They are looking for a way to gauge you and me even more than they do now. Stop falling for this crap.The "CRAP" is NFL demanding that TW ONLY put this on the basic tier and then pay them (NFL) $2/month per EACH BASIC Customer EVERY MONTH OF THE YEAR (not just Football season). Thats $24/year per customer!

I sure as hell don't want to give NFL that kind of money!

The "CRAP" is NFL demanding that TW ONLY put this on the basic tier and then pay them (NFL) $2/month per EACH BASIC Customer EVERY MONTH OF THE YEAR (not just Football season). Thats $240/year per customer!

I sure as hell don't want to give NFL that kind of money!

I agree that the NFL Network is not worth that kind of money for every subscriber. I believe TWC should make this addition and (for once) not pass on every penny to the subscriber. TWC already make ENORMOUS profits. They have raised rates for Basic cable by 10% every year for the past 5 years, while recording record profits. Do you think the programming that has been added during that time is worth it? Uh ... no. Why can't they add a popular channel (like almost every other cable and satellite provider already has with the NFLN) and not jack up our rates? Comcast has. Cox has. And, 75 other cable providers have, as well as DirectTV and Dish.

You don't want to give the NFL that kind of money? Well, at least they have the product. Would you rather give $5 profit per subscriber to TWC? They don't produce anything. They are just preventing access to a product. And, if a provider doesn't provide ... what good are they?

They have raised rates for Basic cable by 10% every year for the past 5 years, while recording record profits.Maybe they have where you live, but my rates have been relatively stable.
Why can't they add a popular channel (like almost every other cable and satellite provider already has with the NFLN) and not jack up our rates? Comcast has. Cox has. And, 75 other cable providers have, as well as DirectTV and Dish.Yes, and in every case that I have seen, that has been on an extra cost tier - not on the basic tier.
Would you rather give $5 profit per subscriber to TWC? I don't see where your $5 profit comes from. Is it the rumored $8.95/month sports tier? Well, first that tier has other channels, and additional costs there. Also NFL wants a lot more per subscriber for placement on a more limited tier.

Typical channels on the basic tier cost $0.10-$0.30/month per subscriber. $2/month is a long way from that.

I don't care what TWC's motivations are! I am just hoping that they don't add the NFL Network to basic cable.

Folks, there are only 8 meaningful games appearing on that network in the course of a year. That's only, perhaps, 24 hours of significant programming. My cable system was Adelphia before becoming TWC and we had the channel for some period of time. I was glad to see it go.

Why would I be glad it left my cable system? I was glad because it occupied what is rapidly becoming precious bandwidth. It was a waste of space considering that there are many more HD channels coming in the next year or two. I don't want to have any question of available bandwidth for those channels.

I am an NFL fan and NOT a golf fan, but it does seem more reasonable to me for the Golf Channel to be fulltime than the NFL Network.