Hi,
I have been contemplating going with a couple different systems:

1. Revel Studio's and Voice Center (Used about $8,200)

2. Revel Gem/Voice & Sub 30 (Used about $8,500)

3. Aerial 9 or 10T with CC5 center (Used about $8,500)

I am sick and tired of upgrading speakers every 3 months. I currently have Revel F30's and Von Schweikert 4Jr's and still want more. Can somebody be so kind and shed some sonic differences between the three choices I have listed above. Listening to a B&M store is not an option as I live in Tahoe. Help would really be appreciated. Thanks

Jason

Of what do you want more?

None of the above, although I do like the Studios. I would go with the new B&W 802Ds.

Hi,
I have been contemplating going with a couple different systems:

1. Revel Studio's and Voice Center (Used about $8,200)

2. Revel Gem/Voice & Sub 30 (Used about $8,500)

3. Aerial 9 or 10T with CC5 center (Used about $8,500)

I am sick and tired of upgrading speakers every 3 months. I currently have Revel F30's and Von Schweikert 4Jr's and still want more. Can somebody be so kind and shed some sonic differences between the three choices I have listed above. Listening to a B&M store is not an option as I live in Tahoe. Help would really be appreciated. Thanks

Jason


If you are always upgrading speakers every three months, then maybe what your unhappy with is your room acoustics, and perhaps you would be better off
concentrating on room treatments.

I should have been more specific. As I go from good to better speakers I always wonder what the next step up is going to sound like. I figure it might be worth it to go a little in debt and be "Happy" with a system for a long time than to keep making moderate advancements.

As far as why I picked Revel and Aerial it is a two part answer. I have personal experience with the F30's. I really like how open and detailed they are. I just figured the Studio's would take and multiply that to another degree. As for the Aerials, I don't think I have ever read anything bad about them and for home theater, they are very highly recommended.

I would love to hear anyone's opinion on the systems I have mentioned for a system that is 50/50 home theater/music. Once again, thanks.

.. As for the Aerials, I don't think I have ever read anything bad about them and for home theater, they are very highly recommended.


They are overpriced and ugly. Ugly ducks, Michael Fremer called them once.

I've been happy with my four Aerial 10Ts and one Aerial CC5 (and three Aerial SW12s) for years and haven't changed. What does that tell ya?

Something to consider is the efficiency (or lack thereof) of the speakers you are considering, especially the Studios and the Aerial LR5s. They require *A LOT* of power to perform. I looked hard at those speakers for my HT, but ulitmately went a different direction (Dynaudio) for other reasons.

They are all solid speakers, you cannot go wrong with any of them, as long as you give them all the current they desire. Plus, Studios are getting a bit long in the tooth (6+ years old at this point)

Hope this helps.

Blake

Thanks for the replys. I actually picked up a used pair of Aerial 10T's and matching center CC5 and will post my thoughts when I get a chance to listen to them. :)

Jason

Forgot to ask - Can somebody recommend an amplifier for the Aerial 10T's and CC5? I have a Bryston 4BSST, Butler Audio 2250 & 5150 and Rotel 1095. I will need to sell some of my amps to finance the Aerial purchase and don't object to upgrading amps again. I just want to make sure I have enough power to make them sing. :D

If you like the Bryston's get the 6B SST for the front 3 and a 3B SST for the surrounds. That's what I'm using for my Aerials, with no problems!

I have had a pair of Aerial 10Ts now for coming up on eight years. I have no desire to upgrade.

They are neither ugly nor overpriced. They're good looking speakers and killer performers.

They're moderately efficient but can take a lot of power if you can deliver it. I feed mine with a pair of Krell KMA-160 monoblocks, which are about 240 watts max into 8 ohms. I've never ever run out of headroom.

CJ

Hi,
I have been contemplating going with a couple different systems:

1. Revel Studio's and Voice Center (Used about $8,200)

2. Revel Gem/Voice & Sub 30 (Used about $8,500)...

I am sick and tired of upgrading speakers every 3 months. I currently have Revel F30's...

Jason

While I think the Revels are a great choice, the Studios sound very different from the Gems. The Studios are a more full range speaker (though not completely full range -- for that you need Salons, Revels' best speaker). The Gems are decidedly lightweight in the bass (that's not a criticism, just fact; I own Gems myself). A subwoofer is mandatory to flesh out the sound. They have the advantage of all monitors in that they throw a pin-point image.

If it were me, and I was finicky like you, I'd buy the Gems and and Voice and Sub 30. I'd live with them for a while, then move up to Salons when the budget permitted, and move the Gems to the rear for left and right surround. The Salons are one of the great bargains in high end audio. They have the bass of a Wilson X-1 (which cost $85,000 when it was current), and mids and highs that are competitive with the best speakers. Yet new, they're just $20K, and on the used market you can find them for half that.

I say that because in my judgment, the Studio is too compromised a speaker for someone who tends to want to change his speakers frequently. Plus, it's only a small step up from the F30s which are very good for the money. The Salons are a reference quality product, on the other hand. They may keep you satisfied for a lifetime...or close to it.

I tried both The Salons and the Studios and I liked the Studios better.

I will second the Aerials. I'm thinking of changing to the 9's from the 7B's; I called Aerial to discuss differences and SW-12 placement in a custom cabinet I'm having made. Michael Kelly ( the owner) picked up the phone and talked to me for a solid 20 minutes and answered all my questions. I love the ability to do that. Of course I also love their speakers!!

Bill

I tried both The Salons and the Studios and I liked the Studios better.

I presume that you're kidding. :) I know some of this is down to taste, but it's either that, or you had an abominable demo of the Salons badly set up in a poorly configured room.

Update!
Not only have I picked up a pair of used 10T, a CC5, but I also picked up another pair of 10T's. Now I just have to wait for a week till everything comes in. :(

This is one system I can't wait to hear. I also found a local Revel dealer that has a pair of Salons and Voice set up which I will audition this weekend.

Withing one week I should be able to finally compare the Aerials and Revels for myself and will share my thoughts later.

I really appreciate all of the feedback from everyone. Thanks and if there are still more opinions I would love to hear them. :)

Jason

Two pairs of 10Ts....that'll be NICE.

My one pair still amazes me after eight years with them. :)


CJ

Just as a heapds up and not that it necessarily affects your decision, but the Revel Ultima line will finally be refreshed starting next year. According to the folks I have spoke with on more than one occasion at HSG, they hope to have some announcements at next year's CES. The used market for Studios and Salons is pretty good but will certainly get even better once the new models are announced.

Jeff

Update!
Not only have I picked up a pair of used 10T, a CC5, but I also picked up another pair of 10T's. Now I just have to wait for a week till everything comes in. :( :)
Jason

COPYCAT - I've had four 10Ts and originally a CC3, then CC5, since 1997. HA!
You'll luv it.

Can somebody recommend an amplifier for the Aerial 10T's and CC5?Crown K1/2 or Crown Studio Reference. These have more power that you'll ever need and are very efficient. Yes, they are pro amps (but I preferred the Studio Reference amps over Bryston's monoblocks). Give them a listen...

Krells, if you can find them at the right price. But if they're class A models, you might want to upgrade the room air conditioning. :)

CJ

I have a pair of Aerial 20Ts in Santos Rosewood which I bought a year ago brand new from an authorized dealer for sale in NY area for pick up only although I have all the boxes.

Why in the world would those even be for sale? 20Ts are among the very best speakers in the world, period.

If you have those and want to upgrade, you have fatal upgradeitis!


CJ

Why in the world would those even be for sale? 20Ts are among the very best speakers in the world, period.

If you have those and want to upgrade, you have fatal upgradeitis!


CJI bought a used pair of DSP 8000 from Meridian since I alread have the 861 processor..

Aerial 10T's, CC3 and two SW-12's. Four MK-150 tripole surrounds.

Three Bryston 7BST's for the front three Aerials and an 8BST for the four surrounds.

I would never change. Only speaker that has made me completely happy over the last eight years. Especially once I upgraded to Bryston amplifiers in year 2000. Killer combo Aerial and Bryston.

By the way I talked to a tech that built 10T's and they use Bryston amplifiers to voice there speakers. Or at least they used to. That was a few years ago.

Ron

I'd love a set of 20Ts but I'm sure they're priced out of my league. But feel free to PM me about them, anyway! I'd DRIVE to NY for them!


CJ

Update! The CC5 showed up this week and how come nobody told me how big this thing was? :p

It looks like a VW bug parked in front of my 65" TV. I am glad it came with a stand. Now I finally understand what all of the hype is all about with Aerials. This thing is built like a tank. Even the stand is incredible. I still can't believe how beautiful this thing is.

And then I turned my system on - Right now I have it hooked up to one channel of my Bryston 4BSST. I can't believe how accurate, clear and flat out dominating this beast is. I have it between a pair of Von Schweikert 4-Jr's till my 10t's show up and it absolutely overpowers the Vons. I can't wait to get that seamless soundstage up front and in the rear. I hate to ask but if I love the CC5 so much am I going to be in absolute heaven when the 10T's show up?

I do have one question though:

What frequency are you guys crossing over the CC5 at? Right now I have it at 60 Hz.

As far as amps go, I think I may pick up a 6BSST to power the other channels so I would have 300W x 5.

Thanks

One more question regarding amping the Aerials. I have been pricing used Bryston 6BSST's at $3,000-3,500 used, while Krell kav-250a/3 typicall sell for around $2,000.

Any input on these Krells would be helpful especially if I could save a $1000.

Although I use a full range low pass 40 Hz 12 dB with my Aerial 10Ts, I just run the CC5 center full range with no low pass - dialogue sounds more intelligible this way.

The 10Ts will stun you. They're smooth, natural, and musical in so many ways. Their performance is excellent all around and it's hard to pick one particular feature that stands out, but I'll say this: Their bass response will floor you. They're essentially flat to 21 Hz and will easily outperform MANY dedicated subwoofers. However they won't overpower you. They don't have EXTRA bass, they just have all that they SHOULD and it goes pretty near all the way down. They play lower than many subwoofers do.

Amps...I'm partial to Krells, myself. A pair of KMA-160 monoblocks drives my 10Ts and though these are rated at "only" 160 watts pure class A (it's actually more like 250), I've
NEVER run out of headroom.

Given a choice between Brystons and Krells in the same power range and at the same
price, I'd take the Krells every time. But Brystons are excellent amps in their own right and
deserve no criticism from anyone. You can't go wrong with either brand.

CJ

cmjohnson,
My first pair of 10T's finally showed up today and I would have to say your description hit it on the head. I love the seamless soundstage between the 10T's and CC5. These things are amazing.

I also was able to demo a pair of Revel Salons with the matching Voice center channel and I have to admit I personally like the Aerial sound better. I still find the Revel's to be somewhat fatiguing at hight volumes as compared to the sweet Aerial sound. As far as bass goes, I think the 10T's sounded more natural. I am not taking anything away from the Salons bass, it was amazing. I just thing overall the Aerials are a more natural, neutral speaker.

I think I am leaning toward a Krell KAV-250/3 to run both 10T's and the CC5. Any last minute opinions will be appreciated. Thanks

P.S. I think I finally found a speaker system to hold on to! :D

Well, I've had my 10Ts for eight years now and I have no desire to go shopping for speakers, either, except to find a good center channel!

I've borrowed a Phase Tech center from a friend of mine and it's a great match for the 10Ts and I'm hoping he'll sell it to me.

I auditioned a set of JMlab Utopias (30,000 bucks) at a high end store in the Ft. Lauderdale area a few years back and they also sold 10Ts as well. I put in some rather unusual demo material to hear which in one spot has a pretty remarkable bass "event" that's practically subsonic. The 10Ts resolve it clearly but all I heard from the Utopias was a muffled rumble.

The event in question sounds like a fifty foot tall solid lead door falling flat on a concrete floor in a warehouse, recorded from about a quarter mile away. Not loud, but there's
a real sensation of hearing a big impact from some distance away. The Utopias just couldn't resolve it. And they sounded rather nasal as well. To my ears, the 10Ts at
a quarter of the price were superior in every way.

CJ

Well, I've had my 10Ts for eight years now and I have no desire to go shopping for speakers, either, except to find a good center channel!
CJ

What's the matter? No space for the Aerial CC5??? I got mine right when they came out some years ago. Its a fanastic center channel that perfectly integrates with the 10Ts.

I have 10T's, CC5, SR3's, LR3's and SW12. Bryston 6BSST for 3 front channels and 9BST for 4 surrounds. Crossover at 50 for all speakers. 50 is a little low for the SR3's, but after experimenting with many different crossovers through the years, having all channels the same seems to give best results for my room. The only change I think of making is adding an additional SW12 for the rear.
I had been looking for an upgrade from my earlier modest surround system for 5 years before hearing the Aerials. I purchased them within hours of first hearing them. A couple of years later, even after hearing the 20T's, I did not wish to upgrade because the 20T's are not matched to the other speakers in the same way that the 10T is. Besides, with this system, it seems we are well past the point of diminishing returns.

A couple of years later, even after hearing the 20T's, I did not wish to upgrade because the 20T's are not matched to the other speakers in the same way that the 10T is. Besides, with this system, it seems we are well past the point of diminishing returns.

I agree with you. The 20Ts are better sounding speakers than the 10Ts. But they have in particular a ribbon tweeter that the 10Ts and other speakers you mention don't have - so for surround sound, the 10Ts, CC5, SR3, etc are well matched.

I'm all for getting a CC5. Can I borrow your credit card? :D

I have yet to find one at the right price at the right time.


CJ

A used CC5 will show up occasionally on Audiogon. Watch and save your $$$$$ and pennies.

cmjohnson.
There is a used one on Audiogon with the stand for $2,400.

I paid $2700 for my 10Ts. I'd like to pay a LOT less for a center channel. That price is just way too high for me at this time.

CJ

I paid $2700 for my 10Ts. I'd like to pay a LOT less for a center channel. That price is just way too high for me at this time.

CJ

The CC5 is a newer model still current and works well as a center speaker with all of Aerial's speakers (except arguably as the 20T has a ribbon tweeter the CC5 may not integrate quite as well with the 20T). The CC5 is THE ONLY speaker which properly and fully integrates with the 10Ts as an equal. Now you can find a CC3 used for probably $800 and it will work nice with the 10Ts (I had a CC3 before the CC5 was introduced), but the CC3 ain't no CC5.

Don't be so cheap. Get a used CC5. HA! :)

Have the 10T's been discontinued? I can not find the 10T's on Aerial's website. Only the 20T and the 9B.

Any clarification would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Have the 10T's been discontinued? I can not find the 10T's on Aerial's website. Only the 20T and the 9B.

Any clarification would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

The 10Ts were discontinued several years ago yet remain a fantastic speaker, now at used prices. The 9Bs are very close to the 10Ts performancewise with better bass, per what Michael Kelly has told me. :D

Hi,
I have been contemplating going with a couple different systems:

1. Revel Studio's and Voice Center (Used about $8,200)

2. Revel Gem/Voice & Sub 30 (Used about $8,500)

3. Aerial 9 or 10T with CC5 center (Used about $8,500)

I am sick and tired of upgrading speakers every 3 months. I currently have Revel F30's and Von Schweikert 4Jr's and still want more. Can somebody be so kind and shed some sonic differences between the three choices I have listed above. Listening to a B&M store is not an option as I live in Tahoe. Help would really be appreciated. Thanks

Jason


Jason,
I am not familiar with the Aerial or 10T but I own Revel Studios for my R/L Fronts, an C50 center and use M20s for surrounds.
The Studios are miles better than your F30s. The mid-range driver is much more clear and forward than any in the Performa line. They also use a read firing tweeter to "fill out" the high ends so if you also use them for music you'll be very happy. One thing I do recommend is a high current source power amp to drive them with, they are power hungry. I'm using Mark Levinson 436s and they come alive. I have a friend that is using Brystons and they also do an excellent job.
The "voice" center uses the same technology for their custom drivers as the Ultima Studio and Ultima Salons. One thing to keep in mind with it is it should sit on its own stand on the floor out in front of your display. And again it wants a lot of power to operate correctly.
One speaker you might want to audition is the Revel F50. The drivers, especially the mid range, have been updated from any other in the Performa line. The material used for the cones and the phase plug make for jaw dropping sound staging and realism. Smooth and effortless is the way to describe them. And truly full range. For a two channel music system as well, they're all you need. I believe that the deciding difference between the Studios and the F50s may be your room acoustics/size. The Studios are big and wooly and perfect for a large space. My listening room is about 15' by 20' and the F50s did just as well as the Studios when I had them on loan. And they're about $6000 less. They run about $8000 for the pair.
As far as the B30, excellent choice. I'm using a B15, the older brother, and I replaced a Velodyne (I don't remember the model), with welcome results. It produces ground pounding LAV for TT applications. It also has an equalizer built in to adjust for your particular room. Very Sweet.
As you can tell, I'm in love with Revels. I cannot recommend a better speaker for the bucks, they'll please you for a long time.

cuccarese

Please forgive me for changing the subject a little bit... I am going to audition some B&W 802D speakers in 2 weeks. This dealer used to sell Aerial Acoustic speakers. He told me that in his opinion the 802D was better.

What are the opinions of the B&W 802D vs the 9B/10T?

The components driving them will be a Theta CBIII (2 Xtreme Dacs) & Original Dreadnaught 5x200@ 8ohms utilizing Straightwire Serenade XLR Interconnects and Serenade Bi-Wire speaker cables.

Please also consider the center channels from each manufacturer as I listen to Home Theater 70-75% of the time and will need to upgrade my center channel.

Thanks for the input.

Jim

I'm always a bit cautious about dealer recommendations. THey always recommend what they're selling NOW over what they USED to sell.

Not saying they're necessarily dishonest....but dealer recommendations shouldn't be the only ones you listen to.


I can't say if the 10T is better than the 802D or not. But as the 10T was one of two Stereophile Magazine Joint Loudspeakers of the Year (with the Dunlavy SC-IV being the other) then you'd have to presume that 10Ts are most definitely in the "great speaker" category. I don't hear of too many pairs for sale on the used market but a lot were sold originally. That tells you that people want to hang on to them. And that says a lot.

If I had the space, yes, I'd be looking for another pair of them. I wouldn't trade them
for anything but 20Ts, too.

CJ

I'm always a bit cautious about dealer recommendations. THey always recommend what they're selling NOW over what they USED to sell.


I would agree. However this is the same dealer that got me started and has always led me in the right direction. I believe he is going to setup both the B&W 802D and the Vandersteen 5A's for me to audition.

Also the 10T are not to be found. Going to the 20T is out of my budget let alone buy 4 pair for SACD recordings.

I am intrigued with the B&W HTM1D Center Channel though. 205lbs???

It is unfortunate that my ability to upgrade came when it did as I was unable to participate in the 10T's when my dealer sold them. There is a bit of leap of faith that he will guide me in the right direction. Both Audio Advisors and Audio Center here carry B&W now. There is a "distributer" in Jupiter, FL for Aerial Acoustics but again no 10T's and they told me I could not audition them (any speaker).

Thanks for your input. I welcome input from others. It seems that now you only have a few stores that carry 1-2 high end brands. And can not get a good A/B reference.

VERY FEW high end stores will carry more than maybe two or three brands that cover the same price or performance range. It's expensive to keep that sort of stock and if there IS a difference, the one that isn't up to the level of the others is the one that won't sell. (In the same price range.)

The high end store that my Aerials came from carried Aerials as their expensive speaker line, Vandersteen as their second tier, Phase Technology as their more reasonable budget speaker line, Audio Research as their high end electronics line, maybe two mid-point electronics brands, and Pioneer Elite as their other mainstay electronics line, which probably accounted for most of their electronics sales. Oddly enough they also carried Sony ES equipment, which is unusual because the Sony ES and Pioneer Elite lines are DIRECT competitors. But they sold a lot more of the Pioneer equipment. Oh, and a lot of Velodyne subwoofers.

That's where I heard the 10Ts for the first time. It was instant awe. Being fed by a set of Audio Research VT150SE monoblocks (wow, those are awesome amps!) with all Audio Research electronics, the sound was simply huge, inviting, and 3-dimensional. Instant love affair. I knew I had to have them!

I later met the guy who bought the demo pair.

Later he offered to sell them to me.

I sold everything I could live without and raised the money.

I own the demo pair I swore I'd own someday. And it happened a lot faster than
I might have imagined it could.

That was eight years ago, roughly. Maybe nine.

I'm still loving it as much as I ever did.

Anybody and everybody who hears my system, whether for music or movies, comments
on the clean, clear, totally natural sound quality. They didn't know that reproduced music could sound like that.


CJ

JIM
I demod the 9s against the B@W, and a few more as well, Ive also heard the 10Ts at a customers house (carpet installer by trade, not audio) And IMO, and final decision the 9s won out. They are so nuetral its hard to believe, every instrument has its own space, nothing dominating or overexaggerated which is what I felt the B@Ws did w/ the highs (mids somewhat too) The 9s have a tighter bass than the 10Ts, but they are equal otherwise, I think the 9s play a little lower too, but that could have been more of the room than anything. I would say, since you cant demo the 10Ts, check out the 9s, give em a listen and youll probably (I think) abandon the B@W altogether. As a matter of fact, where I bought much of my gear in years past, and recently bought my ruby projector, the salesperson came out to help w/ setup, and heard my aerial setup w/brystons and couldnt believe how nuetral, and detailed they were, he actually said he wished they carried that line, because he thought they were miles better than the B@W. They also carry Dynaudio, and even as a salesman, admitted the aerials were an incredible speaker that no matter what he carries, or sells, he couldnt find a fault with them. He also just about broke his knuckles tapping on the cabinet! they are solid. Give em a listen, I think you will be pleasantly surprised, and fortunate to have an aerial dealer near you.

and fortunate to have an aerial dealer near you.

They won't let me audition any speakers. They claim they are a warehouse only. I sent an e-mail to Aerial and have not heard back. I will be placing a phone call tomorrow regarding their dealer's inability/unwillingness to demonstrate their product.

Also what happend to the 10B speakers that were announced to be in development at CES 2002 with the 20T's? Did the 10B turn into the current 9?

Also what happend to the 10B speakers that were announced to be in development at CES 2002 with the 20T's? Did the 10B turn into the current 9?

Someday, perhaps there will be an Aerial based on the 10B. But for now, Michael Kelly of Aerial has taken his company in other directions, like their bookshelf speaker system which has been a hot seller!

Someday, perhaps there will be an Aerial based on the 10B. But for now, Michael Kelly of Aerial has taken his company in other directions, like their bookshelf speaker system which has been a hot seller!

Bookshelf? Are you talking about the "Theater Wall"? Or is there something else he's doing now?

Bookshelf? Are you talking about the "Theater Wall"? Or is there something else he's doing now?

Yea, I mean the "Theater wall" speakers. I said bookshelf as they're sort of designed to work in that fashion.

Steve,

How can you be retired? You haven't gone to 7.3/8.4. I know your Casablanca is dying to have another Xtreme DAC installed. LOL

Steve,

How can you be retired? You haven't gone to 7.3/8.4. I know your Casablanca is dying to have another Xtreme DAC installed. LOL

This will be the subject for another thread someday. HA! I will put up my 5.3 system vs anyone's 7.3/8.4 system anyday re imaging, soundstage, and sound quality. HA! HA! :D

Hi:
I am considering changing my speaker setup and am looking at the B&W 802D, the Linn Akurate, Revel, Dynaudio and Aerial. The 9 looks (sounds) interesting, along with the CC5.
Why can't I find more reviews on the 9's? They seem to exist on the 10T and 20T but not on the 9's.
Curious what you think about using the CC5 with Linn Keltik L/R's. They state the CC5 is flexible enough to be used with non-Aerial speakers. Of couse, having the same drivers across the front would be best but the 9's may have to wait until after some other planned purchases are made.
Thanks
BP

i currently have the 10t's and cc3 center. i am interested to know how much more you guys like the cc5 from members who have used both. thanks, rob

I've had both and the CC5 is much better, no doubt about it. Get the CC5.

I had a long conversation with my local dealer today regarding Aerial's speakers. Without getting into great detail it has been decided to bypass the Aerial 9 Speaker :( and listen to the B&W 802D with their HTM2D center channel.

Turns out that the cabinets that Mr. Kelly from Aerial used to use were from a Danish (not pastry) company that B&W purchased and has now cut off "other vendors", meaning their cabinets are exclusive to B&W.

Doing research on tweeters, I discovered 3 types that are of significance of which only 2 are of interest to me for comparison. The Beryllium(spelling) Tweeter (focal/JM Labs), and now the Diamond Tweeter (B&W).

Utopias are out my budget, which leaves me with the B&W Diamond Series. With accolades that they are in use at Abbey Road and were used to mix the Lord of The Rings, is impressive to me. Granted they are using 3 800D's for the front, and 5 HTM2D as side/rears.

I have scheduled a demo to listen to the 802D and HTM2D center channel. 8K for a center channel (HTM1D) is a little pricey for me.

I was given the option from my dealer to call in a favor to Mike Kelly and get a pair of 9's to audition, but I would have to pay shipping both ways. I'm not at that point to do so.

Also my dealer used to carry Aerial's. Both Mike and my dealer have high regards for one another. My dealer did say they had a challenging time with speaker placement with Aerial's.

I even went as far as speaking with Mike to see if he could help with a local dealer. And unfortunately they are not. My local Aerial dealer is really a custom HT shop and not a retailer. I wanted to hear these because Steve has the 10T's with his Theta Gear. But alas this is not going to happen.

My Theta Dealer since the 1980's believe's that the NEW B&W series is a phenomenal speaker at the price point. I have trusted him in the past with the Theta gear.

Another small reason I am willing to forego the 9's is that the B&W's have a higher sensitivity rating which means my Dreadnaught can still be used. I would love 5 Citadel Monoblocks, but can't swing it unless I win the lottery tonight (Oh shoot...gotta play tonight).

Thanks for all the input.

Not to through a monkey into the wrench but have you considered the 1027Be's. They use a
Beryllium tweeter but are more affordable then the Utopia line. Everything that has been said about them has been nothing but positive. It may be worth checking out.

Jim HTPC,
Why don't you pick-up a used pair of 10T's off Audiogon. They go for less than $4K, which I believe is 1/3 of the B&W's. If you don't like them you can sell them for just about what you paid for them. If you ask me, they probably won't be going back. As far as the center channel goes, you can get a used CC5 for about $2K and I can guarantee you won't be getting rid of that one. The center channel is what sold me on Aerials. I have owned many center channels and this is the only one that has left me completley satisfied, feels like you are in the theater.

Jason

I've had the cc3, upgraded to the cc5 and could not believe how much better they were. Especially considering the 3 was no slacker. Voices were clearer and more lifelike, bass was much more solid.

Amping the Aerials:

I have been looking for the right amps for my Aerials for some time now and many people have suggested Bryston 14BSST's, 4BSST's and 6BSST's but I need to offer another suggestion. Butler Audio!

I had a TDB2250 for a couple of weeks but had to have a fire sale to cover my Aerial purchases. :( I decided to keep my Bryston 4BSST due to reputation and a 20 Year bullet-proof warranty. Well, the short of the story is that after the Butler broke in it was too late, somebody bought it off me. I had fallen for the sound. Believe it or not, it stomped my Bryston into the ground. Crystal clear highs, awesome midrange, imaged amazingly and had slamming bass. To be honest, it hearts my ears to even listen to the Bryston anymore - which is soon to be on Audiogon. :o

If anybody has heard the Butlers, please chime in here. If you get a chance to hear them you will understand what I am talking about. Before I get a couple of more Butler 2250's I am going to listen to the Krell 2250's to just maker sure. Thanks

If your Dreadnaught has the 225 watt modules, then I can not imagine you having a hard time with the Aerial's. I have never heard them though. On the subject of center channels, I must agree that a good one can make a big difference. When I went from my Def Tec C/L/R 1000 to my JM Labs CC901 I was floored by the change. I heard dialog so much clearer it was not even funny.

My Aerial 10T's and CC3 never seamed to create a seamless front sound stage till I got my Bryston 7BST's. The CC3 needs more current than a 10T when played loud. I have one of the older design CC3. Once I got the 7BST's and ran them in parallel mode for max current. I was in heaven. The older CC3 had phase angle issues that were corrected in the CC3B but if you have an older CC3, the 7BST will make it sing. I have no grit or harshness at all and the soundstage is deep, massive and transparent with my Meridian frontend driving 7BST's across the front. I can hit 109dB peaks in my room and the CC3 doesn't ever break up and is completely transparent with my 10T's. I can even drive the 7BST's to flicker there clipping Leds into a CC3 and it sounds perfect. I just don't feel I need the CC5 and its so damn big. If I wanted to play my system at ear bleed levels then yes I would need a CC5 but I just don't listen that loud anymore. Guess I'm getting old. I knew someone that used to blow the bass drivers in his 10T's. Over driving his amplifiers obviously but some people just like it loud. From what I heard he used to pump his up over 110db sustained levels for hours at a time. While he was in another room working. What a waste. I roll off my CC3 at 80Hz although I have run it lower and it still sounded great at high volumes. High for me that is! :)

I guess my previous post is now lost so I will try again.
I am interested in hearing from those who have started down the Aerial road buying their center channel. It appears those that did continued with more Aerial speakers.
My L/R speakers are active Linn Keltiks. Current center and surrounds are Linn 5120's, active in front, passive in surround. I want to start by replacing the center and surrounds. Would you use the CC5 as a surround speaker too?
Thanks
BP

BP if your going to upgrade to Aerials then get the CC5 if you have the room...otherwise a CC3 is very good. The CC5 is more efficient so thats a pretty big gain and you would need less amplifier power. If I were you I would focus on the fronts first and tackle the rears later. The CC3 and CC5 have some settings to help you get closer to the timber of other speakers but you'll never get it perfect until you go all Aerial across the front as a minimum.

Ron

Hi Ron:
I think I have the room. I am considering buying a CC5 off Audiogon and trying it. What do I have to lose. Seems I can always sell it if it doesn't work out.
Yes, I agree with having the same drivers at all speaker positions and want that for my new speaker selection.
I found a dealer 1hr 20min from my home. They were recommended by Aerial. When I called them they told me they had sold all their Aerials and had none to demo. However, the guy on the phone proceeded to tell me how much better the Wilson Sophia and Martin Logan alternatives were relative to the Aerial...so I wondered to myself how much better they must be if they don't have any Aerial's left but have plenty of the Wilsons and ML?
I really need to get out and hear these speakers; if only I could find them!
BP

BP if your going to upgrade to Aerials then get the CC5 if you have the room...otherwise a CC3 is very good. The CC5 is more efficient so thats a pretty big gain and you would need less amplifier power. If I were you I would focus on the fronts first and tackle the rears later. The CC3 and CC5 have some settings to help you get closer to the timber of other speakers but you'll never get it perfect until you go all Aerial across the front as a minimum.

Ron

My friend has a ML 5.1 setup. He has the Cinema Center Speaker, not the the Theater. In my opinion is it very harsh on our ears. When I looked over at my friend his forehead/temple area looked like he was looking into the Sun. I felt bad for him.

Always wanting to help, I scourged through his processor's menu and found a setting that helped him. It was called Theater Compensation or something like that. It removes some of the high frequencies. This helped with the "headache" look on my friend. He was happier when I found that setting.

He later mentioned to me that he felt his amp was over-driving his center speaker. He's running 7x200watts 8ohms.

Don't buy ML blind. Make sure you audition them, and can return them if you do not like them. But you might... so it's worth a listen.

It all boils down to a matter of taste in how you like your system to sound when comparing the three types of speakers your dealer suggested. I like the dark smooth top end that my Aerials have. Wilsons are too bright and overly detailed for my liking. Recordings like main stream rock music makes my ears bleed with Wilsons if the recording is less than perfect. At least with the watt puppys that is what I heard and with several different amplifiers. I just don't care for them. But thats just me. Still some people think Aerials are too laid back. So its a matter of taste really. You need to make that decision yourself. I've heard classical music live and I come home and listen to my 10T's and think that it is the way it should be. Exaggerated detail just isn't the way it sounds in real live unamplified situations. I feel Aerials come the closest to that real life performance. IMHO! I've been to the Sydney Opera house and heard music with a crowd and without in that hall and its just amazing how good it sounds there. That place is supposed to be rated number three in the world for best sound. Martin Logans sound really nice. I could live with those and they have a very nice center channel as well.

Ron

Ronomy:
It is a matter of personal taste, isn't it. After all we all hear a bit differently and that is why we all need to perform our own listening sessions. But I have a hard time accepting any dealer demo as "real"; to me real is how the equipment sounds in my system, not somebody elses.
I recently attended a B&W evening at my dealer's showroom. The 802D was an impressive speaker but there was something about it that didn't match my ideal of what I wanted in a speaker. It kind of reminds me of the overly bright (as you said) top end that seemed a bit exagerated to my ears. Clear, clean, extended, yes. listenable for hours? no!
I think my tastes run closer to the Aerial type of sound. When I attended the opera at Lincoln Center recently I noticed that the higher freqency sounds were not edgy at alll. They were not sharp or overly crisp, just a natural smooth easy on the ears type of sound. That is what I desire in my system.
Wilsons, B&W, Revel all seem to have that edge that makes me a bit uncomfortable. I need to hear the new ML's so I can update myself on their current sound.
I want to hear the CC5 so badly. I might end up buying one so I can really test it out. Anybody around here in the NYC area with a spare CC5?
Thanks
BP

It all boils down to a matter of taste in how you like your system to sound when comparing the three types of speakers your dealer suggested. I like the dark smooth top end that my Aerials have. Wilsons are too bright and overly detailed for my liking. Recordings like main stream rock music makes my ears bleed with Wilsons if the recording is less than perfect. At least with the watt puppys that is what I heard and with several different amplifiers. I just don't care for them. But thats just me. Still some people think Aerials are too laid back. So its a matter of taste really. You need to make that decision yourself. I've heard classical music live and I come home and listen to my 10T's and think that it is the way it should be. Exaggerated detail just isn't the way it sounds in real live unamplified situations. I feel Aerials come the closest to that real life performance. IMHO! I've been to the Sydney Opera house and heard music with a crowd and without in that hall and its just amazing how good it sounds there. That place is supposed to be rated number three in the world for best sound. Martin Logans sound really nice. I could live with those and they have a very nice center channel as well.

Ron

BP,

You sound like your tastes are like mine. Your right about dealer demos. My dealer lets me take anything home and try it out in my own system.

I'm surprised you found the Revels edgy. They are a tad less laid back than Aerials but still throw a very nice soundstage. Although I haven't heard any of there newer stuff. I've been so happy with my Aerials I just don't care about anything else these days and I've been like that for the last 8 years. I still stop in now and then and listen to other stuff just so I know whats out there. But thats as far as it goes.

I've heard the CC5 and you will be in awe of that speaker. Plus any of the Aerial speakers will go well with it. The 20T's might be a departure in sound character because of the ribbon tweeter but still I don't think you can find a better center channel. I'm completely happy with my CC3 and I just don't see the need for the CC5 in my system. Too damn big for my liking and my CC3 never seems over powered at high volumes. At least since I got my Bryston 7BST. Other amplifiers made it sound a bit bright surprisingly. That's why I think the CC5 might be better since it has higher efficiency. The CC5 uses about one quarter of the amplifier power that the CC3 would need. I think I read the CC5 has 5dB higher efficiency over the CC3. 6dB would a one quarter power needed for same output level.

Ron

Ronomy:
Good info. Other's experience is cetainly helpful!
Based on what I have read and since I can't seem to find a CC5 to demo I am left to my own devices. I think I will purchase a CC5 off Audiogon if I can't find one at a deep discount. That way I can demo it to my heart's content in my own system and be able to draw a meaningful conclusion.
Thx!
BP

BP,

You sound like your tastes are like mine. Your right about dealer demos. My dealer lets me take anything home and try it out in my own system.

I'm surprised you found the Revels edgy. They are a tad less laid back than Aerials but still throw a very nice soundstage. Although I haven't heard any of there newer stuff. I've been so happy with my Aerials I just don't care about anything else these days and I've been like that for the last 8 years. I still stop in now and then and listen to other stuff just so I know whats out there. But thats as far as it goes.

I've heard the CC5 and you will be in awe of that speaker. Plus any of the Aerial speakers will go well with it. The 20T's might be a departure in sound character because of the ribbon tweeter but still I don't think you can find a better center channel. I'm completely happy with my CC3 and I just don't see the need for the CC5 in my system. Too damn big for my liking and my CC3 never seems over powered at high volumes. At least since I got my Bryston 7BST. Other amplifiers made it sound a bit bright surprisingly. That's why I think the CC5 might be better since it has higher efficiency. The CC5 uses about one quarter of the amplifier power that the CC3 would need. I think I read the CC5 has 5dB higher efficiency over the CC3. 6dB would a one quarter power needed for same output level.

Ron

Salesman's first rule:

"Don't sell 'em what they want, sell 'em what you've got!"

Clearly the Aerial dealer (that had none in stock) was playing that game.

I'd have told him "I've heard Wilsons and I've heard Martin-Logans and I own Aerials.
I'm looking for more Aerials, because I like that type of sound better. CALL ME WHEN YOU HAVE AERIALS AVAILABLE FOR DEMO, AND NOT BEFORE."

I can be a bit of a jerk sometimes. :D

CJ

I agree with CJ.

You can be very nice about it too. My dealer stopped carrying Aerial's... but was willing to get them in for me to demo (providing I paid shipping to/from if I did not buy them). In the end since the 10T were not available, I decided against it for the time being. If my demo next week does not go well, then I may move forward with the demo on the 9's.

If you are dead set on the Aerials, then I would wait for them to come in (and confirm they are still there the day you want to audition them). I hate waiting though. Florida ruined me. If one store doesn't have it, I usually have 5 more to choose from within a 30 mile radius. Hi end audio excluded :(

Yup, the salesman's credo is sell 'em what you've got...
It is time to move forward so I am ordering a CC5 which I hope will be here by the weekend. First it will be with my existing Linn Keltiks but it might not be long before a pair of 9's are added.
This way I can really get a handle on how this speaker will work out for me. I can't wait.
You guys, and this thead, have been really helpful.
Thx
BP

Salesman's first rule:

"Don't sell 'em what they want, sell 'em what you've got!"

Clearly the Aerial dealer (that had none in stock) was playing that game.

I'd have told him "I've heard Wilsons and I've heard Martin-Logans and I own Aerials.
I'm looking for more Aerials, because I like that type of sound better. CALL ME WHEN YOU HAVE AERIALS AVAILABLE FOR DEMO, AND NOT BEFORE."

I can be a bit of a jerk sometimes. :D

CJ

A bit? You never buy retail and wll only pay maybe 30% of new price. So you're never gonna order a new speaker from a dealer - but you will take home the dealer's speaker to demo and then buy it off the web used.

A bit of a jerk? Yes.

Crazy? No, you save money.

You're ok by my book!!!!

But you really should get a CC5 to go with your 10Ts.

It's a nice idea but they go for more than I'm willing and readily able to pay at this point in time.

I'm saving some money just for a CC5 but it'll be some time before that fund is big enough. No way around that.

CJ

Man was I wrong!

I had read somewhere on the forum that the CC5's were 90db efficient. They are not! They are the same efficiency as the CC3b. Just checked the Aerial website to confirm it.

Forget my post of the benefits of using less power for the CC5 over the CC3.

Ron

Somehow, I don't think that most Aerial users will suffer from a lack of enough available amplification power. I've never yet heard of someone using fleaweight amps with Aerials.

My Krell KMA-160 monoblocks are 160 watts nominal (8 ohms) but actually, they'll deliver about 250 into 8 ohms before clipping. And they will drive 1 ohm loads as they have the surplus current delivery capacity to do it, though the 10Ts won't ever demand that much.
Even at a nominal 160 watts, I've played the system quite loud and it's never run out of
headroom, started to compress, or get harsh. Aerials aren't HIGH efficiency, but medium
power IS enough for them. I'd say that an honest 100 watt amp that can fully drive 4 ohm loads is sufficient for most purposes.


CJ

CJ, the Aerial CC3 is a really good center speaker. I had one for several years until the then new CC5 came out. If you can buy one used on Audiogon, it will tide you over until you can afford a CC5. That would be the way to go!!

Hi:
Well, the deed is done. Order placed for a new CC5 in rosewood. This way I can really test out the speaker in my own system/room and draw meaningful conclusions. It should arrive at my home by Thursday.
If the CC5 passes the test a pair of 9's can't be too far behind! In case I don't like it the same dealer can get me the Revel center, among others.
I found it interesting that in a review I read about the CC3, the reviewer had compared it with what he thought had been a very good center, the Linn 5120. That's what I have now and I know it has been surpassed...hope I am selecting the right one for my ears.
Thx!
BP

BP,

The 9's are 90db efficient! I haven't listened to those yet. I bet they are pretty darn good. I heard the 8's and they were awesome although I thought the bass was a little much. They needed a large room. I liked the 10T's more than the 8's when it came to bass. The 10T's have bass like a sub. In my old living room...before my new HT room...I measured the bass response and the 10T's matched my sub output all the way down below 20Hz. The room helped in that respect since they aren't rated that low. I thought the 8's sounded a little thick in the low end.

IMO Save some cash and get some used 10T's. There is a pair on audiogon in rosewood. I actually like the low profile 10T's as compared to these towers that everyone sells these days.

Ron

I should be able to hear the 9's in a couple of weeks. Whether they are new or used will depend on the deal. By that I mean I know new will cost more. Just a matter of how much more and whether that is worth it.
Sounds like maybe the room was affecting bass response on the 8's a bit. I hope I have the bass issue in hand, on the room side anyways. I have a pretty full set of Echo Buster treatments including bass. right now my bass is pretty tight.
There is a shortage of dealers in the NYC area, hard as that is to believe. Why Aerial wouldn't want a higer profile in an large affluent market isn't clear to me. But that's OK. As long as I can hear and buy them somewhere...
I was thinking that a used pair of 10T's could make outstanding surrounds and an interesting option to newer and maybe less capable choices! :D

BP,

The 9's are 90db efficient! I haven't listened to those yet. I bet they are pretty darn good. I heard the 8's and they were awesome although I thought the bass was a little much. They needed a large room. I liked the 10T's more than the 8's when it came to bass. The 10T's have bass like a sub. In my old living room...before my new HT room...I measured the bass response and the 10T's matched my sub output all the way down below 20Hz. The room helped in that respect since they aren't rated that low. I thought the 8's sounded a little thick in the low end.

IMO Save some cash and get some used 10T's. There is a pair on audiogon in rosewood. I actually like the low profile 10T's as compared to these towers that everyone sells these days.

Ron

I never brought the 8's home and I heard them in a show room that had been treated. I had heard a lot of speakers in that room and most sounded very good in the bass region. The 8's never sounded very good in that room in the bass region. But your right in another room they are probably fine. I just found the 10T's easier to fit any room size. The side firing driver in the 8's might have been the problem in that room. The 9's shouldn't have that problem. I bet the 9's will have tighter bass than the 10T's. Meridian seams to have moved away from the slightly under damped bass they liked in the 10T. My 10T's are modified. I knew a guy that worked there and they had done some experiments with adding extra damping material to the bass cab on the 10T which tightened up the bass a lot. He got me the exact material they use in the 10T's and I made the modification myself. Specific directions how to fold the material and where to insert it. The difference was incredible. I've made a few other changes like getting rid of the large bolt that runs up the center of the head. The wires are wrapped around that bolt and actually cause a ripple in the frequency response to the head. The wires around the bolt have an inductive affect on the head. That was another tweak that my friend told me about. He had discovered it while testing a finished 10T. On the bench the frequency response was flat and when placed on the bass cab it was not. The felt pad is gone and I use three small flat rubber feet to place the novalith head on the bass cabinet.

Isn't it fun to tweak?

Ron

Romony:
Now there you've gone and done it! I can never hear a 10T without thinking how it might sound with the Romomy tweaks! :D
I am sure that members on this forum are tweakers; after all, that desire to constantly strive to improve our systems is what brings us all together here on AVS.
Do you have any opinions of whether used 10T's or something from the current line would function best as surround speakers? The 7B, 6 or LR5? Wouldn't the LR5 be closest to the 9? I am not looking for what would be the most cost effective although that will matter in the end. For now, independent of the $, I am intersted in knowing opinions. And let's assume I won't get another pair of 9's although that isn't out of the question based on some Audiogon prices I have seen. But I am not convinced that 9's are necessary for surround channels. Other Aerial options could be close enough.
BP

I never brought the 8's home and I heard them in a show room that had been treated. I had heard a lot of speakers in that room and most sounded very good in the bass region. The 8's never sounded very good in that room in the bass region. But your right in another room they are probably fine. I just found the 10T's easier to fit any room size. The side firing driver in the 8's might have been the problem in that room. The 9's shouldn't have that problem. I bet the 9's will have tighter bass than the 10T's. Meridian seams to have moved away from the slightly under damped bass they liked in the 10T. My 10T's are modified. I knew a guy that worked there and they had done some experiments with adding extra damping material to the bass cab on the 10T which tightened up the bass a lot. He got me the exact material they use in the 10T's and I made the modification myself. Specific directions how to fold the material and where to insert it. The difference was incredible. I've made a few other changes like getting rid of the large bolt that runs up the center of the head. The wires are wrapped around that bolt and actually cause a ripple in the frequency response to the head. The wires around the bolt have an inductive affect on the head. That was another tweak that my friend told me about. He had discovered it while testing a finished 10T. On the bench the frequency response was flat and when placed on the bass cab it was not. The felt pad is gone and I use three small flat rubber feet to place the novalith head on the bass cabinet.

Isn't it fun to tweak?

Ron

I've been using four 10Ts, with a CC3 then upgraded to a CC5 when it came out, since early 1997 - in a clock formation at 2, 4, 8 and 10 o'clock for the 10Ts.

I think I'll be tweaking my 10Ts a bit. I'll keep the rod, just replace it with a non-metallic one.

As I have friends who own machine shops and nylon in stick form is easy to obtain, this should be rather simple.


CJ

Hi CJ,

If you happen to have nylon rods made. I would be interested. Just let me know what your friends price is. I get nervous when I have company over. All it takes is one tap and there goes a novalith head. Plus I would like to have the option to turn the heads easily again. I was thinking of getting some oak dowels and thread them but I'm sure they would snap pretty easily. I like your nylon idea!

One more tweak for you! Place some thick cloth...I use several layers of black fleece...on the bass cabinet just in front of the midrange. There is a reflection off that spot that causes a midrange shift as you move from sitting to standing. Its noticable when your standing up from what I remember. It was talked about in one of the early reviews on the 10T's. Put some heavy cloth on that shelf the entire width of the cabinet. You will be very happy! No image shift whether your standing or sitting. Get rid of the rod and add the cloth and the difference is amazing.

Ron

What I remember has also been suggested is to sculpt a foam filler for the gap between the bass cabinet and the head. Make the transition between the two as smooth as possible and it cures some minor but (some say) noticeable anomaly in the lower treble, if I remember right.

I will make inquiries re: the nylon rod idea.

There's probably someone selling suitable nylon rod stock on ebay right now. I'll start there. :)

CJ

What I remember has also been suggested is to sculpt a foam filler for the gap between the bass cabinet and the head. Make the transition between the two as smooth as possible and it cures some minor but (some say) noticeable anomaly in the lower treble, if I remember right.

I will make inquiries re: the nylon rod idea.

There's probably someone selling suitable nylon rod stock on ebay right now. I'll start there. :)

CJ


Interesting tweak! I never heard that one.

There was also the blutack to secure the head to the bass cabinet. I really didn't care for that one. I thought the 10T's sounded bright that way. I actually like the rubber feet under the head like i have it now. I may put the felt back in if we get rods made. Your idea of the nylon rods is the best idea I heard in a while. I'll run some searches as well. I wonder if Home Depot has anything like that?

Found this: http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog_name=USPlastic&category_name=75&product_id=15529&utm_id=36&utm_term=nylon


Ron

please count me in for a pair of nylon rods, if they can be fabricated. great tweak idea.

please count me in for a pair of nylon rods, if they can be fabricated. great tweak idea.

This tweak was suggested to me by a guy I knew that was the US or North America sales manager for Aerial a few years back. He was also good in setting up and matching components. He had helped setup a system or two that had won best at show using 10T's. He set me up with Bryston 7BST's for my Aerials since they had used them to voice the 10T's in the factory. He also helped build speakers and he discovered this anomaly when testing some 10T's. On the bench the crossovers were perfect and then when the head was sitting on the bass cabinet it was not. Removing the metal rod solved the anomaly. Same goes for the felt or heavy cloth on the bass cabinet just in front of the midrange and the extra dampening in the bass cabinet. These tweaks all came from the guys at Aerial discovering little things that made them sound even better. The extra dampening was tricky. I had to use the same stuff Aerial used in the 10T and it had to be folded just so or else it didn't work and didn't sound so hot. I don't have access to the material any more. I lost touch with him. From what I heard Mike Kelly didn't care for the tighter bass. He didn't want to change the speaker that helped Aerial get to where they are today. I guess the heads just became to expensive and hard to make so they discontinued the 10T.

Ron

Fabricating them is easy enough. I'm going to pick up some stock and let a friend of mine have at it with his lathe.

I don't see any reason why the rods need to be as long as the originals. I figure that three or four inches should be PLENTY. Any comments on that?

They'd be the same, otherwise. Threaded ends and all.

CJ

I just bought the nylon rod stock. It'll be here in a few days.

CJ

You think 3 or 4 inches is enough? Still seems like it could fall over if bumped. Although it would at least keep the head centered which I don't have now. Plus even nylon might snap if it took the weight of those heads so longer might not be good. Should be at least 4 inches sticking up after its threaded into the bass cab. Try it and see is what I always say.

Keep me posted!

Ron

I plan to do that. But if I can conserve material, I may be able to get more sets made out of the amount of stock I bought.

The odds of my 10Ts tipping over are extremely low. Never even had cause to be concerned in the eight years I've had them. And mine are on casters and get moved around frequently as the optimal music listening position has them blocking off part of my projection screen, so when watching movies I move them further out.

CJ

Hi:
My rosewood CC5 arrived this morning. What a packing job Aerial does. Very well protected. Just the packing materials alone must have wighed 20 lbs!
Anyway the speaker is breaking in right now. First impressions are quite positive relative to the speaker it replaced, an aktiv Linn 5120.
More suprisingly, at first listen it seems to blend very well with my Linn Keltiks.
Now I am really looking forward to the weekend!
One suprise though; no user manual! Hmmmmmmmmmmm...I guess I will develop a close relationship with Aerial.
Steve, I hate to say it but you might be right about this one...hard to believe a single speaker can make such a difference.
I am curious what people are doing with the switches on the rear of the CC5 as well as the CBIII cross-over settings.
BP

Although I run my four 10Ts full range, with a low pass to subs of 40 Hz 12 db, I run no low pass on the center, as I find using a low pass with the center interferes with intelligibility on some quieter whispier stuff.

The CC5 is as good as it gets.

Check Aerial's website on line as you may find the user manual there.

I've evaluated the idea of replacing the 10T's upper support rods.

It's very doable! I think Delrin will be a better choice than Nylon, though.

The rod should be about .530" in diameter. I think a half inch rod wrapped in a layer of
carefully applied electrical tape (for damping and to avoid rattles) should be just about right.

CJ

Steve:
They don't have a manual, strange as that may seem. :confused:
I have now bi-amped the CC5. a stable 400 watts per channel should be about what it needs.
Even my wife noticed that the speaker brings a significantly more open and fuller presence to the front center of the room!
BP



Check Aerial's website on line as you may find the user manual there.

Each of my 10Ts and CC5 drivers is modded with a Bybee device soldered in. When we did this some years ago, the improvement was startling. We modded the front right 10T and played some Patricia Barber and I had to move up to the front left 10T or I couldn't hear it - as the right sounded so much better. Then we modded the front left 10T and all was fine and all sounded better than ever. HA! Can you solder?

CC5 NEEDS 400 watts a channel?

I don't think so!

Not unless you're trying to kill everyone in the room, that is!

Running my 10Ts with amps that generate, at most, 250 watts (8 ohms) into each speaker, I've never challenged the limits of either speakers or amps even when playing quite loud.


CJ

I biwire my CC5 from a Bryston 7B mono amp which at 4 ohms puts out about 800 watts per channel. OVERKILL sounds sweet.

A little web search found the following info re the CC5 - I couldn't find my manual that came with the speaker:

____________________________

AERIAL ACOUSTICS
MODEL CC5 CENTER CHANNEL SPEAKER


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Aerial Model CC5 is an extremely high-performance shielded 3-way loudspeaker designed for center channel use in the finest music and theater systems. It provides wide bandwidth and high output with exceptional speed and high dynamic capabilities. It can easily fill large rooms. Designed for use with all Aerial speakers, the Model CC5 is also suitable for use with many of the best loudspeakers from other manufacturers. The accurate response and the contol flexibility of the Model CC5 provide good matching with most relatively neutral front speakers.

The Model CC5 features an unusually high degree of control flexibility through its rear panel precision rotary switches. The Environment switch provides midrange / treble level adjustment for system matching, for room compensation, and especially for different installation environments such as on-stand, on-video monitor, and built-in custom mounting. The Slope switch selects between flat response and two levels of midrange/treble upward tilt. This provides compensation for system matching as well as for personal taste. The Environment and Slope switches may be used together to provide a broad range of tailored responses to fit most requirements.

The Model CC5 continues the design philosophy of other Aerial speakers - but taken to a higher level. The heavy cabinet is exceptionally inert, with thick walls and extreme bracing. The innovative midrange and massive woofers were developed specifically for the CC5 and LR5. They have extremely large shielded magnet structures and cast frames. The midrange driver is an exceptionally linear design with flat response to beyond 8KHz. The woofers have 2.0" diameter voice coils with more than 1.0" of linear stroke. The tweeter is a specially selected version of our custom titanium design with long linear motion and vented rear chamber. The crossover networks are large, occupying the entire back panel of the CC5. The resulting performance is extraordinary.

The standard finish is black ash. The model CC5 is also available in several beautifully finished veneers. Finish quality is unusually high. An optional adjustable height floor stand is available to match various screen heights and to provide the best performance.

SPECIFICATIONS
Frequency Response 40 Hz to 22 kHz ± 2 dB
Sensitivity 86 dB at 2.83 volts and 1 meter
Impedance 4 Ohms nominal, 3 Ohms minimum
Power Requirements 100 to 500 Watts recommended
Drivers 2 x 9", 1 x 6", 1 x 1"
Crossovers 360 Hz & 2800 Hz
Dimensions 28.0" w x 9.8" h x 22.0" d
Weight 97lbs / 150lbs packed
Finishes Black Ash, Rose Walnut, Natural Cherry, Natural Maple, Santos Rosewood

Talk about Aerial speaker mods. If you look inside the SW12 subwoofer, you will find that the speaker cable and connection from the amplifier to the woofer ain't all that hardy. Well, I replaced it on my Aerial subs with custom Granite Audio
speaker cable and man does it rock!!!! Heavier guage and more solid connectors and connection lets me get every little ounce of joice out of that amp to the woofer!!! Photos follow:

More photos Aerial sub cable:

One more photo Aerial sub cable

CJ:
I wasn't really being serious with that comment about the CC5 "needing" 400 watts! :D Just my sick sense of humor...however, it doesn't seem to hurt it at all. It sounded fine with a singel 400 watts being fed to it and it sounds even a bit more fine with bi-amped 800 watts. That appears to be what Steve is feeding his albiet in a slightly different way.
I do consider this overkill but since I had the extra channel of amplification already in place it wasn't a big deal. If I didn't have everything ready to bi-amp I woundn't have bothered with it. It really isn't necessary...but, as they say "you can have too much horsepower or too many watts"...not sure who said it but I kind of agree!
Anyway, that 400 watts rating is at 4 ohms. If you are running 250 watts at 8 ohms chances are you double up when dropping to 4 ohms. Then you are providing even more power per channel than most anybody else here.
BP

CC5 NEEDS 400 watts a channel?

I don't think so!

Not unless you're trying to kill everyone in the room, that is!

Running my 10Ts with amps that generate, at most, 250 watts (8 ohms) into each speaker, I've never challenged the limits of either speakers or amps even when playing quite loud.


CJ

I biwire my CC5 from a Bryston 7B mono amp which at 4 ohms puts out about 800 watts per channel. OVERKILL sounds sweet.

Steve,

Do you run your 7B's in series mode? I found the 7B to sound better in parallel mode with the 10T's. Parallel mode is higher current into low impedance loads. Over 900 watts into 1 ohm loads The bass and control is a lot better for me in parallel mode. Although your not getting 800watts into 4 ohms in parallel mode. More like 400-500 watts into 4 ohms. The 10T's drop down to 2.6 ohms at one point in the low end. Below 3 ohms the 7B's in series are not that great. Really the 7B's are designed for series mode with speakers rated 8 ohms or above.

Ron

Steve,

Do you run your 7B's in series mode? I found the 7B to sound better in parallel mode with the 10T's. Parallel mode is higher current into low impedance loads. Over 900 watts into 1 ohm loads The bass and control is a lot better for me in parallel mode. Although your not getting 800watts into 4 ohms in parallel mode. More like 400-500 watts into 4 ohms. The 10T's drop down to 2.6 ohms at one point in the low end. Below 3 ohms the 7B's in series are not that great. Really the 7B's are designed for series mode with speakers rated 8 ohms or above.

Ron

Not so sure about that!!! If my memory is any good, I discussed this with both Bryston and Aerial back in 1997 and was advised to use series, which is the upper position of the switch.

The Bryston manual states that series mode connects the modules in a bridged configuration and that the output voltage swing is thus additive and is appropriate for driving loads from 3 to 8 ohms; and that parallel mode yields the voltage swing of a single amplifier module but the current available is additive and is appropriate for driving loads from 1 to 3 ohms.

Here's the specs for the Arial 10Ts: "4 Ohms, 3 Ohms minimum, low reactance"
from http://www.posthorn.com/Aerial_2.html http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/466/index3.html


Also, from

http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/466/index4.html

"Its plot of electrical impedance (fig.1), however, reveals that it sucks quite a lot of current from the partnering amplifier to achieve that sensitivity. The magnitude drops to 3 ohms or below in the midbass and mid-treble, and is coupled with a demanding electrical phase angle some of the time. I wouldn't recommend this speaker be used with wimpy single-ended amplifiers, and tube amplifiers should definitely be used from their 4 ohm transformer taps."


Now I don't pretend to be a techie guru and understand this stuff as well as some of you more techie folks. The Bryston manual would seem to indicate that series mode correct here. Mebbe when I get a chance I'll give a call to Michael Kelly of Aerial and refresh my memory and see what he says about this.

Not so sure about that!!! If my memory is any good, I discussed this with both Bryston and Aerial back in 1997 and was advised to use series, which is the upper position of the switch.

The Bryston manual states that series mode connects the modules in a bridged configuration and that the output voltage swing is thus additive and is appropriate for driving loads from 3 to 8 ohms; and that parallel mode yields the voltage swing of a single amplifier module but the current available is additive and is appropriate for driving loads from 1 to 3 ohms.

Exactly! Thats what I said. The problem is in series your current output drops below 3 ohms. I'm not saying it will not drive the 10T's. It works as you know. I just found my bass was less dynamic in series mode. The sound stage is better in parallel mode as well which tells me the amp is struggling at high volumes. Plus the amps run hot as hell in series mode.

Series mode is good for high voltage swings and parallel is best for high current. We all know the higher the current into a low impedance load the better the control over the drivers under dynamic situations. I find the dynamics a lot better in parallel mode. Even all the reviews of the 7BST said they sounded best in parallel mode. There isn't anything wrong with my amps either...I just had them sent back last year to have remote switching added to two of them so they were fully updated with new power supplies as well. Bryston is the best for customer service. Really is a pleasure doing business with them.

Ron

I just had them sent back last year to have remote switching added to two of them so they were fully updated with new power supplies as well. Bryston is the best for customer service. Really is a pleasure doing business with them.

Ron

What is "remote switching"?

What is "remote switching"?


I have three 7BST's (fronts) and one 8BST for my rears. The 8BST had the 12 volt DC remote switching circuit option and one 7BST I had (center channel) also had the option. Two of my 7BST's didn't have it. I had to walk around the room to turn on the amps. So I sent Bryston an email and asked if I could have the two 7B's sent in for an upgrade to add the switching circuit. Then I also had problems with the same two amps blowing fuses. When I installed 10awg wiring in my walls with separate electrical breakers for each amp I started blowing the 7 amp fuses in those two amps. My third amp was newer and didn't blow fuses. Bryston told me that there was a change to the power supply that fixed the fuse blow problem I had.

Bryston was awesome! They asked me what my serial numbers were so that they could have new rear panels made with my serial numbers and the hole to add the remote DC turn on switching. It was a minimal cost as well. Then they said when the amps were in for the upgrade they would fix the power supplies as well for free. I was just blown away by the service. Turn around time was less than a week even with shipping.

Ron

By the way Steve,

I would love to hear your system. The pictures and review is impressive. I read about the Bybee device and I'm curious about that tweak. Looks like an easy upgrade. Fairly inexpensive too.

Ron

I can tell you similar stories re Bryston - no one is better when it comes to warranty and service. They are tops!!!!

I didn't think you were saying that the CC5 NEEDS that much power. But I agree, extra power is never a bad thing.

My amps are Krell KMA-160 monos. They double their power rating every time the load impedance is halved, all the way down to 1 ohm. 160, 320, 640, and 1280 watts into 8, 4, 2, and 1 ohm respectively. NOMINAL. At max output as determined by the available voltage swing and Ohm's Law, that's almost exactly 250, 500, 1000, and 2000 watts peak (before clipping) into the same loads. Assuming that the mains breaker doesn't trip first!

Yes, the amp's output devices can deliver the required current up to that level as they are capable of handling a total dissipation of 250 watts per pair and there are 12 pairs in the KMA-160.



So, Steve, how much did 32 feet of 8 GA. THHN, TFFN, or MTW stranded copper wire end up costing you, along with four feet of nylon braid sleeving and the custom connectors?


It should have been under 20 bucks. Maybe 30 if the connectors were overpriced.


I'll NEVER believe that a "brand name" of copper wire, OFC or not, will EVER make an
audible difference in a highly bandwidth-limited subwoofer application.

Provided that the comparison is against equal type cabling with suitable connectors, that is.

CJ

By the way Steve,

I would love to hear your system. The pictures and review is impressive. I read about the Bybee device and I'm curious about that tweak. Looks like an easy upgrade. Fairly inexpensive too.

Ron

You've got an invite if you're out this way!!!

I'll NEVER believe that a "brand name" of copper wire, OFC or not, will EVER make an audible difference in a highly bandwidth-limited subwoofer application. Provided that the comparison is against equal type cabling with suitable connectors, that is.

CJ

You don't have an Aerial SW12 sub, do you? You haven't taken out the amp and looked at the factory cabling provided inside the sub, have you? If you did, I betcha that you would DIY your own heavier guage more solid connector cables to use. I'm not a cable DIY guy, I buy. That's my preference. I dare you to make your own DIY cable as well as Granite Audio makes theirs - that's what I paid for, custom quality objective cabling that I don't want to and don't have the skill to build myself. Per Mark Haflich, those Granite Audio 57 ohm video cables would improve the picture in your Marquee 9" CRT, not because of any superstitious nonsense, but because they are minicable width, 75 ohm, high bandwith, and in these objective qualifies better than the stock internal cable that comes inside the projector. That's why I had Mike Parker upgrade the internal cabling of my Dwin with that stuff!!!! :D

Lets not turn this thread into arguing about price - if you pay for an objectively better built cable (instead of DIYing it), then you pay custom pricing in a capitalistic society.

If we're gonna discuss this :eek: , then I suggest you objectively compare the build, construction and specs of the Granite Audio replacement cable, with the
cable that comes inside the Aerial SW12 and tell us what you objectively think without regard to price.

Steve,

Did you install the bybee device on the woofers in your 10T's?

Ron

Well, to judge by the photos you provided, they sent you a bunch of lengths of 8 ga. THHN wire, some braided sleeving, and some connectors.

How much did that wire cost per foot?

I can provide 8 ga. THHN wire for about 35 cents a foot.

Use their kit, with my wire, and their kit, with their wire. Same connectors, same sleeving, same general spec cable.

Do you think it'll make an audible difference?


It's not the upgrade I have an issue with. When dealing with big subs, I approve of
using big wire just because. Heck, my own sub takes a full kilowatt from an external amp and I'm running a cable to it that contains four six ga. conductors in it. Each driver gets its own pair. That's PLENTY for a kilowatt.

My issue is, was, and always shall be with companies that charge ten bucks a foot for wire and cable that costs them 25 cents a foot to get made and custom marked from the wire company.

I'm by no means against the high end and the idea of superior performance. But so often, the emperor's new clothes are for sale in this market. I don't buy into some of what's being marketed, and won't.

CJ

Do you think it'll make an audible difference?
CJ


It sure does!!!! Objectively it should sound better. And it does subjectively.
Bulldogger was impressed with my bass - I must be doing something right. HA!

:eek:

When dealing with big subs, I approve of
using big wire just because. Heck, my own sub takes a full kilowatt from an external amp and I'm running a cable to it that contains four six ga. conductors in it. Each driver gets its own pair. That's PLENTY for a kilowatt.
CJ

So what sub(s) are you using? Have you checked internally re the speaker cable used? Have you modified it?

You want to talk about custom service. I showed Don the internal amp and cabling for my Aerial sub. One of the connectors on one of the subs had broken, sort of flimsy. I asked Don what he could do. He took his bi-wired speaker cable, same that I use for my Bryston 7B amps and Aerial speakers; he took off some of the insulation so that the cable would be flexible enough to fit inside the sub; and he used a really solid banana plug that would give the tightest fit, noting that the prior cable in one sub had a thin spade and that as the subwoofer roared its bass the internal connection would loosen but that the banana plug would fit therein tightly and maintain a solid connection. Now that's called custom service.

I made my own sub. I know what wire is in it.


OK, so the Granite Audio cable is:

Litz wire, as I interpret it.

BTW, THHN is an insulation specification as is MTW, TFFN, XHHW, and so on. It does NOT indicate stranded or solid.

Please be aware of this. Don't misinform your customers of raw facts like that.


Variable strand sizes. OK, I can buy that. I can buy the litz wire concept as well as the
variable strand sizing. I can buy the OFHC concept.

None of these add tremendously to manufacturing costs. Stripping and tinning Litz wire is time consuming, though.

But what do you charge per foor for this wire? At retail.


And would you be willing to stand by the assertion that this wire will make any audible
difference in a subwoofer application vs. equivalent standard wire gauge wiring,
connected via the same type of connectors?

Heck, why even use copper? Why not silver, which is a better electrical conductor and which is even highly conductive when oxidized?

I'm enough of a DIY type guy that I even braid up my own interconnects using teflon insulated, silver plated mil-spec hookup wire. Compared directly to several brand name interconnects of various types, I DID hear a difference and I found my homebrewed cables
to be superior. And at less cost.

I'm not immune to the idea of improvements....but I won't spend money on improvements that won't be noticeable.

Litz wire in a subwoofer application would be just such a case.


CJ

CJ

When you buy, you always buy used, and it must be cheap!!!

You often DIY your own.

You don't believe in a manufacturer charging anything for their expertise and labor.

What else is new?

This thread is about Aerial speaker tweaks. So I posted about my tweaks.


CJ, you're in college, right? When you graduate, we expect you to offer your professional services for us AVSers at your material cost - which is nothing. I look forward to that day.

CJ

As you built your own subwoofer and do a lot of DIY stuff, I was just wondering.
What objective test equipment do you use as you redesign your CRT, built your subwoofer, and design speaker tweaks?

I use Kimber 8TC myself. I think they are similar to the Granite audio but sold in a braid configuration. I love the stuff! I used to use Cardas Cross but I feel the litz enameled wire to be musical but feel there is a slight loss of inner detail. The Kimber braided design seems to be very quiet with better inner detail yet still smooth top end. Plus its a lot cheaper although still over $10 a foot for 8TC in bulk.

So Steve back to the bybee device...did you install them on ever driver in the 10T's and the CC5?

Thanks,

Ron

I use Kimber 8TC myself. I think they are similar to the Granite audio but sold in a braid configuration. I love the stuff! I used to use Cardas Cross but I feel the litz enameled wire to be musical but feel there is a slight loss of inner detail. The Kimber braided design seems to be very quiet with better inner detail yet still smooth top end. Plus its a lot cheaper although still over $10 a foot for 8TC in bulk.

So Steve back to the bybee device...did you install them on ever driver in the 10T's and the CC5?

Thanks,

Ron

I used Kimber from my old system when I first setup the Aerials in 1997, replacing it with a number of cables before settling on Granite Audio.

Yes, the Bybee devices are soldered at every driver of the 10Ts and CC5.

Steve,

I surprised the Aerial sub cable was so thin. I remember the cabling in the 10T's to be multi solid core. Pretty heavy gauge too. I had one of my SW12's open once cause the metal driver sometimes comes loose from the spider. Early drivers had this problem. Aerial had to change the glue. I had one come loose so they swapped out the driver. I didn't remember the cable being thin but I wasn't paying attention to it most likely since I wasn't changing it. My friend who worked there did the swapping.

Ron

The Aerial sub cable ain't "so thin" but its just not as thick or with near as solid connectors like the custom Granite Audio sub cable I use.

Hey CJ,

I have a Marquee 8000 in my basement that needs tubes. I got it from the company I used to work for. It was free! They were going to throw it in the trash. Said the red tube was dead but when i got it home all the tubes worked. If you lived in the neighborhood I would give it to you. I just don't want to deal with a projector that big.

Ron

You could yank the tube assemblies and boards out of it and ship them to me. I'd be happy to cover the shipping costs, and throw in a bit more, too.

I'm long past college. Still cheap, though.

I don't object to a manufacturer making a fair buck. I'm not a big fan of being overcharged, though. Certainly some cables fall in that category.

Maybe I am being too critical. I look at what I have and the average guy wouldn't "get it" about some of my stuff. Heck, I'm already biwiring my own 10Ts with Vampire ST-2 cables to the upper cabinet and Kimber 8PR cables to the bass cabinets. And though I did buy them used, I still DID pay 150 bucks for the ST-2s and 60 for the 8PRs.

I resist the claim that there's anything magical about any cable, though.

There are a few things I am openly critical of, such as anyone who cites "skin effect"
when talking about audio equipment. Which applies to RF and is significant in that
frequency range but is not worth talking about in the audio range!

Better power handling, better signal transfer, better control of unwanted rattles
and vibration, removal of undesirable component interactions, these are all good
things. Tweaks like that are things I approve of, but only if the cost is not out of
proportion to the engineering and manufacturing costs involved.

CJ

"Aerial", not "Arial".

Individually insulated conductors ARE litz wire, or at least a close relative, by definition.

What I see is several multi-stranded insulated wires that have been stripped at the ends, tinned, and soldered to connectors.

I admit it's slightly disquieting that you deal in wire and cable and weren't aware that the most common insulation specs of all, THHN, MTW, and TFFN, are just that...INSULATION specs. Any may appear on solid or stranded wire.

I'm not a wire EXPERT, but I do deal with wire and cable every day in my job. I've handled
wire as small as no. 42 magnet wire which is finer than a human hair and 750MCM which is about an inch in diameter not counting the insulation.



I'm guessing you're using smaller wires to equal an effective 8 ga. wire here?

Looks like four 14 ga. stranded conductors and two 12 ga. stranded conductors per run.
It's not that easy to tell from just those pics.


CJ

CM, please give us photos of your homemade sub, including the internal cables. Thanks.

And were you going to advise us, as previously requested by me, regarding what objective test gear you use in designing and building your sub and as you modify other audio and video gear? You represent yourself as so knowledgeable that certainly you must have some really good test gear, don't you?

I asked Don of Granite Audio if he could use his speaker cable, that I use,
for the purpose of the Aerial subs internally, and that's what he did, agreeing that it would work well for this purpose, and it has. Here's full info re the speaker cable and to the extent that CM speculates that the cable is other than as described in the following it is apparent that his reading skills could be improved.
Sure, you can argue about pricing of custom cables or if you don't like the pricing, then don't buy it. (same goes for expensive audio gear) But I'd like to keep this to objective tweaks to improve performance.

Some of your above comments speculating about the build of the Granite Audio cables are way off - for example, Litz wire isn't used. Not I ain't no expert, but I can read - here, maybe you'd like to read the specs and construction, too:

http://www.graniteaudio.com/cable/page9.html

I've evaluated the idea of replacing the 10T's upper support rods.

It's very doable! I think Delrin will be a better choice than Nylon, though.

The rod should be about .530" in diameter. I think a half inch rod wrapped in a layer of
carefully applied electrical tape (for damping and to avoid rattles) should be just about right.

CJ

How did you evaluate this idea? Did you use a computer program or any objective test measurements? Please provide them. (And if you didn't , thats ok, as lots of us don't have expensive objective test gear - but might be hesitant to modify something structural to an expensive speaker based on subjectivity alone.)

:rolleyes:


CJ

I've evaluated the idea of replacing the 10T's upper support rods.

It's very doable! I think Delrin will be a better choice than Nylon, though.

The rod should be about .530" in diameter. I think a half inch rod wrapped in a layer of
carefully applied electrical tape (for damping and to avoid rattles) should be just about right.

CJ

CJ,

You going ahead with making these? I'm on board if your willing to have them made. Have you tried pulling out the rod to hear the difference? From what I was told there is a dip in the frequency response with the metal rod. I suppose it will depend how much the head wires are wrapped around the rod. Plus as you turn the head the dip would fluctuate. So I was told. So depending on how much contact was made with the rod the more fluctuation. It didn't happen with every speaker obviously since Aerial found it well into the product life. Still getting rid of the rod ensures that the frequency response is smooth as it was on the bench.

Ron

I'll probably have a few sets made up. I doubt they'll be expensive. I'll update you when I have something to offer.

CJ

CJ:
Mind if i drool a bit over your amps... ;)
i am still very early in my aerial cc5 relationship. i must have passed some threshold as i could easily notice that the sound just opened up some...
at what point does it make sense to start playing with the adjustments at the back of the speaker?
BP

I didn't think you were saying that the CC5 NEEDS that much power. But I agree, extra power is never a bad thing.

My amps are Krell KMA-160 monos. They double their power rating every time the load impedance is halved, all the way down to 1 ohm. 160, 320, 640, and 1280 watts into 8, 4, 2, and 1 ohm respectively. NOMINAL. At max output as determined by the available voltage swing and Ohm's Law, that's almost exactly 250, 500, 1000, and 2000 watts peak (before clipping) into the same loads. Assuming that the mains breaker doesn't trip first!

Yes, the amp's output devices can deliver the required current up to that level as they are capable of handling a total dissipation of 250 watts per pair and there are 12 pairs in the KMA-160.



So, Steve, how much did 32 feet of 8 GA. THHN, TFFN, or MTW stranded copper wire end up costing you, along with four feet of nylon braid sleeving and the custom connectors?


It should have been under 20 bucks. Maybe 30 if the connectors were overpriced.


I'll NEVER believe that a "brand name" of copper wire, OFC or not, will EVER make an
audible difference in a highly bandwidth-limited subwoofer application.

Provided that the comparison is against equal type cabling with suitable connectors, that is.

CJ

BP,

Get the manual for the CC5. The switches adjust for location of your center channel. Is it backed into a wall or is it on top of a TV screen (crush! :) )? Most likely if you have it on its stand, out into the room and not against a wall then keep them in there default positions. Experiment too! They could be used to tame a bad vocal recording although I never used them for that with my CC3.

Ron

Hey Ron:
First off, I don't want this to get lost in my response; This speaker is great. On both music and movies I am getting to like it alot! ;)
The only "instructions" sent with the CC5 was the same blurb you see on Aerial's website. They informed me that there was no user manual.
I guess I was expecting some more in-depth description on the impact of the rear controls. Yes, I can read the labels and can understand what each says but there should be more in-depth guidance than just labels. For example, if I raise the tweeter output how many db's increase is each increment? On the postioning switch, for example, more descriptive explanations of what different types of configurations could be defined by any of the positions would be helpful. For example my CC5 is on top of my Elite rp crt with appropriate support underneath it. But the top of the tv is neither a shelf or a stand. I would want to know how the changes in settings are designed to impact dispersion. :confused:
I will go back to the website again but tell me where you got your manual and when that was?
Thx
BP

BP,

Get the manual for the CC5. The switches adjust for location of your center channel. Is it backed into a wall or is it on top of a TV screen (crush! :) )? Most likely if you have it on its stand, out into the room and not against a wall then keep them in there default positions. Experiment too! They could be used to tame a bad vocal recording although I never used them for that with my CC3.

Ron

Wow, I'm surprised Aerial is not handing out a manual. I seem to remember one for my CC3. My 10T's was a book with detailed design info on the drivers, novalith head and bass cabinet. It was amazing and still is when you read what went into the 10T's.

Ron

Since we are talking aerial speakers. I have a question. I am looking at replacing my front speakers with possibly aerial LR3's and a CC3 center channel. Anyone have experiance with these speakers.

I am traveling to San Diego next week to audition these speakers but thought someone here on the forum might enlighten me.

I have already listened to dynaudio confidence c1, sonus faber cremona auditor. I would like to hear the jmlabs electra 1007 be, but can't find where to audition them. Any advise is appreciated.

Since we are talking aerial speakers. I have a question. I am looking at replacing my front speakers with possibly aerial LR3's and a CC3 center channel. Anyone have experiance with these speakers.

I am traveling to San Diego next week to audition these speakers but thought someone here on the forum might enlighten me.

I have already listened to dynaudio confidence c1, sonus faber cremona auditor. I would like to hear the jmlabs electra 1007 be, but can't find where to audition them. Any advise is appreciated.

I would go for the 7B's. Remember you will need to buy stands for the LR3's. Either way will be great for a system that size.

Romomy,

I wish I could get a floorstand speaker but these must sit on cabinet shelf and cannot be larger than 24 inches. Also, if they are 12 inches deep, the back of the speaker will be approximetly 6 inches from the wall. The aerial lr3's have an adjustable crossover so that the bass can be controlled :cool: . But, I have not heard them yet so......

I was hoping for some advise on the speaker listed above. As I stated, I have listened to the dynaudio's, sonus farber speakers. The dynaudio seemed a little more airy, natural sounding but just a little. For the money the sonus farber speakers seemed a better deal. I cannot wait to try the aerials.

My system currently is:

denon 4806 avr - 7 channels
denon 2910 dvd
monitor audio 10 in subwoofer
infinity overture 1's left, center, right speakers
sonus in ceiling surround speakers

Proposed:
new rotel sacd/cd player for two channel music
aerial acoustics lr3 or ....... speakers bi amped using the 6th and 7th channels for a total of 260 watts of power into 8ohms
veledyne dd15 subwoofer.
Second two channel amp for zone 2.

Later swap the denon 4806 for pre amp/amp arrangement

Timfinle,

I guess you'll have to listen to them to know for sure. The switches change the sensitivity of the midrange and tweeter so that when they are setup near a wall you can set the midrange and tweeter to play louder. It offsets to a small degree some of the bass gain your getting with the close proximity to the wall. There are also midrange adjustments...at least there are on the CC3 to help match with other speakers. These basically attenuate the midrange around 2-4Khz I think I remember reading. It also helps with less than stellar soundtracks although I have never use any of these switches. I leave them in the default position.

Ron

Timfinle,

I have the CC3B and have owned the CC3 also. They are very similar. Both speakers need room to breathe and sound best in free space. I notice some thickness in the bass department when standmounted directly in front of the base of my RPTV compared to moving them out into the room. (And that's only one semi-solid boundary, 2ft away from the actual wall) Consequently, running them as "small" xover 80hz makes them sound better. The adjustments on the rear can only do so much. Just don't commit to them, or any speaker for that matter, until you've tried them out in your setup. I know, that's not always feasible, but you can't predict boundary gain.

I know the JM Lab Electra 1007Be is bass light. Gorgeous mids and highs. Adding a little room gain might make them more weighty and richer sounding IMO. Without in home demo, I'd get the Electra if I had to put'em that close to the wall.

How about the 5B? Aerial says "70 Hz to 22 kHz ±2 dB, -8 dB at 50Hz". Might help.



Ronomy, and others:

I have a 16.5 x 26 x 9 dedicated HT. Will accomodate free-standing towers. (I don't believe in hiding speakers behind false walls, columns, or screens) I have the Model 7 now. I want to upgrade in the Aerial line. 10T or 7B? Ampification not a concern cuz I'll upgrade as required.

Bing brings up a lot of good points. The 5B suggestion I like as well because the 5B isn't a bass heavy speaker and would work better with a shelf arrangement.

Ron

Hi:
Recently bought the CC5. About to purchase a pair of 9's for my L/R. Next comes a pair of surround speakers. I am really confused and need some advice from experienced Aerial listeners.
Steve, if you are reading this I know what your recommendation will be and I don't disagree with the idea of another pair of 9's for surrounds. But that isn't in the cards right now so other than that choice, what do you all suggest?
I am looking at the LR3 and 7B models at the moment. But it looks like the drivers in the 7B may not be the best match for the 9's and CC5 as the 7B appears to mate better with the CC3 and SR3. So am I better off with the LR3?
Thanks to all.
BP

Hi:
Recently bought the CC5. About to purchase a pair of 9's for my L/R. Next comes a pair of surround speakers. I am really confused and need some advice from experienced Aerial listeners.
Steve, if you are reading this I know what your recommendation will be and I don't disagree with the idea of another pair of 9's for surrounds. But that isn't in the cards right now so other than that choice, what do you all suggest?
I am looking at the LR3 and 7B models at the moment. But it looks like the drivers in the 7B may not be the best match for the 9's and CC5 as the 7B appears to mate better with the CC3 and SR3. So am I better off with the LR3?
Thanks to all.
BP

Most rooms can't properly accomodate floor standing, or on stand, speakers all around. That leaves the SR3s as the next best option. And the SR3s properly placed on wall will sound better than floorstanding or on floor speakers not properly placed. It also hard to find room if you want more than 5.1 floorstanders, whereas the SR3s are easy to place on wall for additional surround speakers. That may be what you want to do for now.

Steve:
I was thinking more along the lines of the LR3, not the SR3, for surrounds. I am not a fan of dipole so my preference is for the LR3. How do you think the LR3 would work with the CC5 and the 9's? Would a used pair of 7B's be better? While my current surrounds are wall mounted I plan to place the new surrounds on stands but they will be close to the rear wall. I can move them out for serious listening sessions.
Your thoughts?
Thx
BP

Most rooms can't properly accomodate floor standing, or on stand, speakers all around. That leaves the SR3s as the next best option. And the SR3s properly placed on wall will sound better than floorstanding or on floor speakers not properly placed. It also hard to find room if you want more than 5.1 floorstanders, whereas the SR3s are easy to place on wall for additional surround speakers. That may be what you want to do for now.

Steve:
I was thinking more along the lines of the LR3, not the SR3, for surrounds. I am not a fan of dipole so my preference is for the LR3. How do you think the LR3 would work with the CC5 and the 9's? Would a used pair of 7B's be better? While my current surrounds are wall mounted I plan to place the new surrounds on stands but they will be close to the rear wall. I can move them out for serious listening sessions.
Your thoughts?
Thx
BP

Having tweaked and moved stuff in and out for years, and having mostly retired from that crap so I can enjoy my system - I say put stuff in one place.

Surrounds on stands generally close to the wall - sure, that will work. But I think you will be better off with the SR3s, which if I recall correctly have a switch for direct radiating vs dipole.

Steve:
Somehow when I looked at the SR3's I was turned off by the dipole/monopole combination. I don't think I am a fan of dipoles, especially for music which is most of what I use my system for. But, on your recommendation I will study them a bit more.
I guess what I am trying to figure out is what the best acoustic match for the drivers in the CC5 and 9's would be for the surrounds. Wasn't the SR3 made to match with the CC3 and pre-9 Aerials, i.e. your 10T's? I thought there would be an advantage to having the same drivers in all my speakers. Or is the Aerial sound so similar it really wouldn't matter.
Thx
BP

Steve:
Somehow when I looked at the SR3's I was turned off by the dipole/monopole combination. I don't think I am a fan of dipoles, especially for music which is most of what I use my system for. But, on your recommendation I will study them a bit more.
I guess what I am trying to figure out is what the best acoustic match for the drivers in the CC5 and 9's would be for the surrounds. Wasn't the SR3 made to match with the CC3 and pre-9 Aerials, i.e. your 10T's? I thought there would be an advantage to having the same drivers in all my speakers. Or is the Aerial sound so similar it really wouldn't matter.
Thx
BP

Call my good friend Michael Kelly at Aerial Acoustics. Tell Michael I said hi and that I recommended that you personally ask him about this.

I thought the tweeters were the same in all but the 5's, SR3's and 20T's? The 10T had an early tweeter that was changed down the road. I forget the year it was changed but I know my 10T's have the newer tweeter.

I think if your worried about it get the LR5's to match the CC5. Can't get any closer than that when comparing to the CC5. Although 9's might be the better match with the left/right up front. They are more efficient! Just that reason would tell me to go with another pair of 9's if your room is big enough. 4dB is a lot of extra headroom.

Ron

Hi Ron:
I agree that the LR5 would be a great 2nd choice. My obvious 1st choice would be to have 9's as surrounds and that is my eventual goal. Whatever I get now will be a "stop gap" until that time.
That is why I am curious about what will work best with the CC5 and 9's; LR3, 7B, etc.? I think Steve's suggestion of calling Michael Kelly is now my best bet. I will try that today.
Thx
BP

I thought the tweeters were the same in all but the 5's, SR3's and 20T's? The 10T had an early tweeter that was changed down the road. I forget the year it was changed but I know my 10T's have the newer tweeter.

I think if your worried about it get the LR5's to match the CC5. Can't get any closer than that when comparing to the CC5. Although 9's might be the better match with the left/right up front. They are more efficient! Just that reason would tell me to go with another pair of 9's if your room is big enough. 4dB is a lot of extra headroom.

Ron

Let us know what he says!

Hi:
I called to speak with Mike Kelly today and he was out of the office. I spent some time on the phone with a guy named Dave. He was very helpful.
We discussed 3 surround options other than the 9's and LR5's;
1) 7B - This is a rear-vented model so it should be placed away from the wall. Since these surrounds are located on a rear wall and need to be on or close to it I don't think the 7B is a good choice for this application.
2) 6 - A smaller version of the 7B with a single woofer instead of the 2 woofers in the 7B. It can not play as loud as the 7B due to this difference. Since I would expect to cross the speaker well above the lower registers this woofer is capable of I think the 6 is an option since I wouldn't be over-extending it in the lower registers.
3) LR3 - This speaker does not have the lower end capabilities of the others. But does that matter if it is crossed at 50hz or 63hz? (I think it is rated down to 50hz). It also have environmental switches, I guess like on my CC5. This appears to be a good option too.

I asked about the difference in voicing of the drivers and combining the 3's or 6's with the 5 & 9's. Dave advised me that quite a few owners have installed this combination and been pleased with it. I guess if the rears carry less critical information than the fronts it is OK. Do you agree?
So the refined question to you more knowledgeable Aerialites is whether you think the 6's or LR3's would make the better choice for a surround speaker?
Thanks!
BP

Let us know what he says!

BP,

I wonder if its the same Dave I know? The same Dave that gave me all the 10T tweaks! I'll have to stop at my local dealer and see if he is still working for Aerial. Good guy! Knows how to setup a system and match components for the best sound.

Ron

Ron:
I was reading a 2 year old review of the 6 on the train ride home yesterday and noted there was a Dave Marshall at Aerial who designs the cross-overs. I didn't note Dave's last name when I spoke with him. Could be him?
BP

BP,

I wonder if its the same Dave I know? The same Dave that gave me all the 10T tweaks! I'll have to stop at my local dealer and see if he is still working for Aerial. Good guy! Knows how to setup a system and match components for the best sound.

Ron

Ron:
I was reading a 2 year old review of the 6 on the train ride home yesterday and noted there was a Dave Marshall at Aerial who designs the cross-overs. I didn't note Dave's last name when I spoke with him. Could be him?
BP

That was Dave. I know Dave well, too. At Aerial, when you call, you talk to Michael or Dave.

Nope different Dave. I didn't think my Dave worked there any more. He lives way up in New Hampshire and it was a bit of a drive and that was a more than 4 years ago maybe 5 years.

Ron

I'm giving serious consideration to refinishing my 10Ts in piano gloss black. Has anyone done something similar?

I've refinished a few cars and built a fair number of guitars and think I'm probably able to
handle the job, but I am somewhat hesitant to commit to starting the job because I'm long on projects and short on time already.


CJ

Hi:
I picked up the pair of Aerial 9's this weekend and hooked them up. They do match up nicely with the CC5. They were used as demo speakers and don't have too many hours on them, perhaps less than 50.
Should I exepct the sound characteristics to change at all? If so, how many hours to reach that point?
For those with a CBIII, is anybody willing to share any cross-over settings?
Thx
BP

I would recommend speaking with Aerial & Theta regarding your setup.

This is a tough question as the placement of your speakers can vary the optimal settings.

Do you have access to a Sencor 295/295/495 analyzer? Or maybe hire someone in your area who can map your room?

As a general rule I start my crossovers at 80Hz for my subwoofers and go down from there if needed. I would maybe start with Large speaker settings in your CB3.

You have access to 4 types of crossovers in your CB3. I'm partial to the Linkwitz-Riley in my current room.

Speakers should sound better after at least 100 hours as the mechanical stuff loosens up!!!!

Be careful re crossing over the center speaker. I have found in my system and room that full ranger center with no low pass sounds the best re vocal intelligibility.

Generally, in my system, the lower the Hz and Db, the more musical and better it sounds, that is, when I am running a high pass to the main Aerial speakers. So 40 Hz or 50 Hz with 6 dB crossover sounds best for high pass if I choose to use one in my system.

But I run full range to each Aerial speaker - but I also do a 40 Hz 12 dB low pass to the Aerial subs, exc ept none for center channel.

BP
Congrats, man are you in for a treat. I have the 9s, CC5, and CC3B, powered by bryston, the most difficult task for me was getting the placement dialed in. You will find an inch here or there really makes a difference. I dont have the CBIII, but is on my short list of upgrades, I currently use a Anthem AVM20 and have my crossovers set at 50 for the L/R, and 55 for the center, 60 for the rear channel, and 80 for surrounds(they are currently M@K SS150s) Works pretty well for my setup, I would also experiment with the built in crossovers on back of CC5 as you can take advantage of different room types (as Im sure you already know)
As far as the break in with the 9s, I found after about 5-6 days of continuous play the whole soundstage will open up, as well as play lower and tighter. I let everything play at higher volumes while working and didnt notice much the first couple of days, but the last two days were like listening to an even better speaker (if thats possible) than what I had bought. But once again, placement will give the best results, I also toe in just a fraction which actually opened up the sweet spot for me, these things will play very low upon arrival, but increase twofold after broken in, with mine I have bass settings very low, otherwise we start to lose pics around the house, and the wife doesnt like that too much! Enjoy, I fell in love w/these speakers the minute I heard them, and they have only gotten better. And the CC5 is in its own class altogether, effortless is about the only word to describe its performance.

Hi all:
Thanks for the input guys! It really sounds as if everybody has their own way to get the maximum out of these speakers. I can't wait to get all the way through break-in (yes, i know some say this concept doesn't exist) since I have already started to hear positive changes in the sound.

Steve:
If you run the CC5 full with no cross-over have you noticed any problems when it has to handle truly deep high db passages? Wouldn't running them with a lower cross-over setting as opposed to full offer protection against potentially damaging signals? While I can see from your response that you haven't had this problem do you think this could become an issue?
On the CBIII I think I have the slope set differently than what you have; maybe at 24 instead of 6. I will try out your slope and see how it sounds. It may be a bit harsh at 24.

davidpa:
i currently have the 9's set to cross-over at 40hz and the CC5 at 63hz. I think I can drop the CC5 to 50hz safely.
And yes, I agree with you about the "effortless" nature of the CC5! Almost as if there is no speaker there, just a person speaking when listening to TV or dialog in movies.
As for the 9's, it is still a bit too early to make a final determination. There are certain aspects of my previous speakers, Linn Keltiks, that I prefer but that could be a case of being very familiar with them combined with not giving the 9's enough time to reach their full capabilities. This weekend will be spent doing lots of listening to cd's I know very well.
One of my acid test CD's is On Air, DTS by Alan Parsons. What a talented engineer. Anyway, on one cut there is a chrescendo with a cocaphany of higher frequency sounds. Lesser resolving systems turn this section of the CD into piercing ear-killing pain. My Linn's did quite well with it. The 9's do even better allowing me to keep turning up the volume and still hearing each sound individually; no pain but plenty of gain!
I am really looking forward to hearing the 9's mature!

Steve:
If you run the CC5 full with no cross-over have you noticed any problems when it has to handle truly deep high db passages? Wouldn't running them with a lower cross-over setting as opposed to full offer protection against potentially damaging signals? While I can see from your response that you haven't had this problem do you think this could become an issue?
On the CBIII I think I have the slope set differently than what you have; maybe at 24 instead of 6. I will try out your slope and see how it sounds. It may be a bit harsh at 24.



The CC5s are designed with a roll off at very low frequencies - they ain't damaged by it at all. Again, you can direct this question to Aerial Acoustics, but I guarentee they don't design a speaker that must use an external high pass filter to avoid damage. Now if you send the LFE signal to a speaker at high volume, that's another story, but you send the LFE separately to a sub.

My experience is that the higher the crossover, the worst the sound. 24 dB in my room was most unmusical compared to 6 dB, which was the best when I once used a high pass crossover for some years. But no high pass to the main Aerials is clearly the best in my system. The Aerials can take the signal - worry about what sounds best, not how to protect the Aerials.

The Aerials are built like tanks! The 10T crossover can handle over 1000 watts continuous before saturation of the coils. Under power them and that will kill any speaker eventually. I heard a story of a guy who was driving his 10T's louder than his amp could supply...clipping the output. Well eventually after a lot of hours of this the speaker cone ripped from the coil. The bass driver voice coil didn't fry. Now thats tough! It was a 400 watt per channel Classe amp...I heard he was getting 115db+ SPL levels for hours.

Ron

I once asked Michael Kelly (via phone) what the optimal power match would be for 10Ts and he said, "A Krell FPB-600."

When Stereophile reviewed the FPB-600, the bench sample delivered 950 watts RMS per channel into 8 ohms at their defined clipping point. Double that into 4 ohms.


It's true, a surplus of clean power is less harmful than clipping at lower power. Distortion kills speakers more easily than extra clean power will.

CJ

Thanks for all the input.

I traveled to San Diego and auditioned the lr3's. I placed them very close to the wall (6 inches) just as they would be in my home. Also, I brought my speakers from home and tested the two sets back to back for over 3 hours.

When I got home, I went and re-auditioned the dynaudio confidence c1's back to back against my speakers.

Both the aerials and dynaudio's where cleaner nicer sounding speakers than mine current set. The difference between the dyna's and aerials was small.

I still need to audition the jmlabs speakers. The folks in San Diego stated that the jmlab utopias would sound somewhere between the Wilson audio duettes (heavenly) and the aerials. Used utopias seem to go for 2900 to 3500. I could then get the electra series center, the utopia center is to big. I would think that would sound very good.

Now, where to here the JMLab speakers?

I auditioned JMLab Utopias.

I absolutely did not like them.

I found their bottom octave of bass to be lacking in both weight and resolution, compared to 10Ts, and I brought a reference disc with me to test specifically for that. The 10Ts kill on that particular track, the Utopias didn't even deliver a tired feeling.

I also found the Utopias to have a distinctly nasal tonality to them that was very off-putting.

So, in conclusion, I found the speakers that sold for 4 times as much as the 10Ts to be a poor comparison to the 10Ts.

Your mileage may vary, but I can honestly say that the Utopias are at the bottom of the list of expensive speakers I might want to own. Actually, they're not on that list at all.


CJ

Do you guys prefer the bass from the 10T's with the stands or without? I didn't have stands for my 10T's and picked some up on audiogon. They are the older style stand. Also, The SW12 sub. Better with stand? Just curious what you guys think. What can I expect to hear when I add the stands. I tried the spikes that come with the 10T's and hated it. Made the bass sound thin. I just didn't care for it.

Thanks,

Ron

I have always had mine on the older style stands. I never run them without.


CJ

What ever happened with the replacement rods for the 10HT? Any update on that?

Ron

It could happen at any time. My "usual" machinist says his lathe has worn out a critical part,
and he needs to replace it.

I've also decided that delrin is a better rod material than nylon and if I can get some delrin in
the right size soon enough, I'll just use that.

I have nylon rod right now.

CJ

Hi Guys:
I read this entire thread, and like most all of you am an Aerial fanatic. I own 10Ts with the newer Sound Anchor stands. I use a CC3B as my center, and while I'm prepared to "know" the CC5 is better; it's truly hard to imagine...or at least at anywhere near sane levels. Rear channels I use Energy Reference Connoisseurs X 4 wall mounted.
Regarding pre/pro and amplification, I simply cant afford what you guys have, but I'm not exactly "hurting" either. I believe in buying amplifiers not wattifiers (as do all of you). So, I have bought some very high current (and very musical) Parasound equipment. My system is used 50/50 for HT and serious music. 90% of the serious music listening I do in stereo, although I admit I'm quite enamored of DPL IIx. Of course there's NOTHING like a well recorded multi channel SACD IMHO. Anyways, as a pre/pro I use the Parasound New Classic 7100 which sounds fantastic to me. I also use for amplification a Parasound HCA-2200 II for the Aerial 10T front mains which generates only 400 wpc into 4 ohms, BUT does provide 90 ampere peaks per channel which gives this amp a vice grip on the bass control of the 10Ts. It's also outstandingly musical to me. For all other channels I use a Parasound HCA-2205 which puts out 385 wpc into 4 ohms X 5 and generates 60 ampere peaks per channel. Together this system is altogether pleasing and performs at levels of subjective quality that I am more than happy with.
I will say that I probably fall in the area of subs as I use 2 Definitve Technolgy 1500TL+ subs with 15" drivers and 500 watt amps each. No, they're certainly not in the realm of the Aerial SW 12s, but for the HT I use them for; they slam my house about on it's foundation.
All in all, I guess my point is that while it would be nice to have esoteric amps, they're not necessary in order to get a great deal of enjoyment out of Aerials...even the 10Ts. AND, like most of you that own them; I wont say I wouldn't trade them for the world, but it would take a heckuva LOT!!! :) :) :)

The Aerials are built like tanks! ..

They look like a tank, too. Michael Fremer called them "ugly duckling".

I auditioned JMLab Utopias.

I absolutely did not like them.
..

There is no comparison between the 10Ts and the Utopias. The Utopias are in a different league.

I just picked up a pair of 10T's - absolutely amazing.

I just need to find a deal on a used CC5... anyone? :)

Ultra audiophile speakers are a bad idea for watching movies. A 15 year old speaker, not 100% transparent, and rated class B in Stereophile is just what you need. With DVD you need to hear less, not more. Audiophile speakers are helpful only with vinyl and CDs. How many CDs do you have?

Ultra audiophile speakers are a bad idea for watching movies. A 15 year old speaker, not 100% transparent, and rated class B in Stereophile is just what you need. With DVD you need to hear less, not more. Audiophile speakers are helpful only with vinyl and CDs. How many CDs do you have?

I'm not sure how to respond to your statements - other than to say I completely disagree. The 10T's are fantastic speakers.

I'm with Jim! 10T's are outstanding speakers. However, there are some folks that don't care for them. It's a matter of tastes. I've been in some of the best sounding halls in the world...Sydney Opera House is one and is rated number three in the world. Listening to classical music on my 10T's is like being there. At least in my room and my setup. If a speaker is so hyped (false sense of detail), harsh or brittle sounding that DVD's sound bad then there is a problem with the speaker. Some people like what I consider false sense of detail. A great speaker should be smooth and transparent with anything you play through them. If its low res then it should sound less transparent and not harsh and brittle IMHO. In the end it should be still enjoyable to listen too. That's what makes a great speaker. 10T's are on that list of great speakers. I've heard Revels as well and they make great speakers too.

Ron

10T is an excellent speaker. No it's not a JM Labs Utopia but few speakers are. Sounds like someone just has a personal axe to grind on a very good value in speakers. My only compliant on the 10t is that the tweeter is a bit dated. The newer tweeters offer more resolution. Bass and midrange are still as good as anything in this price class. The 9t has just received an excellent review. I would buy it.

I believe the 10T has been through three different tweeters or at least two. The later 10T's has the same tweeter as the CC3. They have also gone through one or two woofer changes as well.

The Utopia should be a superior speaker...at ~$85k a pair for the Grande
Utopia Be, it would be a little much to expect the 10T to perform or give the appearance of the "Be's". I'd love to own a pair of the Utopias, but come on if I could buy any speaker for ~$8k (the 10Ts when they were new) that gave me the performance of an 85k speaker, I think it need not be said that the maker of the ~85k speaker wouild be out of business rather quickly. That said, I DO feel that the 10T still competes VERY well with any speaker in it's price range today and still outperforms the wide majority of them.
I don't consider myself a big time high ender, but my system is nothing to sneer at unless you've spent what most would spend on a home on your sound system. Trust me when I say that if that were possible for me; I'd spend it in a flash!
However, we should all enjoy what we have, and the fact that you can buy a beautiful used pair of 10Ts for ~$3k (sometimes) at Agon is a beautiful thing, as I do NOT think any new speaker at anywhere near that price comes even close! Add my CC3B, all Energy Reference Connoisseur rears, twin 1500TL+ DefTech subs, and last but certainly not least my Parasound 7100 pre/pro, 2200 II and 2205 amps, and I'm EXTREMELY happy! The beauty is I have a wonderful 2 channel rig which is how I listen to most music and also have great HT when I want it as well.
I'm just a happy ass puppy! :D :cool:

Bulldogger, where were the 9's reviewed?

Thanks,
Bill

I have spent some time with the 9's and they are fantastic. I was astounded with the amount of bass those guys can produce. Very very good sounding speakers. The ones I was listening to was driven by a Classe integrated!!!

I wouldn't hesitate to pick up 9's.

Quite frankly, I've auditioned a pair of JMLab Utopias, which were connected to
Rowland amps and fed by a Theta CD player, and did not much care for them. I thought the 10Ts were
better sounding speakers across the board. And this was at a dealership that had 10Ts
on demo as well as the Utopias.

To me, the Utopias had a distinctly nasal tonality to them that I did NOT like and probably
never would no matter how long I heard it. And when it came to the very deepest bass,
the Utopias were absent while the 10Ts still had power and definition.

In fact, even to this day, I have not yet heard any other type of speaker that can resolve
certain recorded bass events I have found on some CD tracks like the 10Ts can do it.

The 10Ts are rated flat to 21 Hz. And they're fast and detailed down in the deep bass like
no other full range speaker I've personally heard yet.

As for using "lesser" speakers for home theater, I, too, must disagree. A first rate system
will be revealing of the flaws in a less than perfect recording, and many movies are very
flawed in this regard, but when you get into a movie that IS extremely well recorded,
you will definitely appreciate having a system that's up to par.

10Ts for the main speakers in a home theater system work out magnificently. These
speakers strike a very sensible balance between detail resolution and musical tonality,
not giving away too much in either category in favor of the other. They're not overly
warm and sweet, and they're not so analytical as to focus attention on details rather than
on the overall music. It's a nice balance.

CJ

CJ,

Your explanation of the sound character of the 10T's is spot on. Well said!

Ron

Well, I've been listening to them for eight years now. By now I SHOULD have a handle on what they sound like, or at least I'd hope so. :)



CJ

Where were the 9's reviewed?


There is a review of the Model 9s in the most recent Absolute Sound. Although overall it was positive, the reviewer had some issues with the bass, but admitted that the room (basically a square) made it more challenging to set up. The reviewer normally listens to planar speakers (I forget which ones) and compared the 9s top end favorably with them. Be sure to also read Michael Kelly's response to the review in the back.

I am also looking to purchase a set of 9s in the near future, and the review has not dissuaded me from them. I plan to start with 5.1 using a pair of Model 9s for L/R, CC5 for Center, Model 6s for Rears, and SW-12 for LFE. SR-3 surrounds will come later. Amplification is all Anthem Statement. It's another great combination.

Cheers,
Tom

Since I posted earlier (thinking I was at the point of diminishing returns), I have made some changes. In my 2-channel setup with 10Ts, I replaced a Bryston 4BST with a 14BSST. It made a remarkable improvement in the detail, bass, and soundstage. I then replaced my Proceed Pre with a Cary SLP05 Tube Preamp. Although I've loved the 10Ts for the last 6 yrs., I now feel I am hearing their full potential. Absolutely gorgeous.
In my surround, already driving the 10Ts and CC5 with a Bryston 6BSST, I replaced the 9BST with 2 4BSTs to drive the SR3s and LR3s. While before I thought about a rear sub, it no longer seems necessary. The holographic sense is considerably improved.
I do not play the 2 channel or surround system very loudly. Neither require it. Aerials, at least in my 2 rooms, just love power.

I found the review very interesting. Certainly coming from a person who listens to planar speakers most of the time (likely far less bass from them than the 9's) I was curious if other owners had the same opinion.
In my case I would say that I don't have the same problem as noted in the review. Perhaps it is because I spent more time on placement, maybe it is the room characteristics? Or perhaps the bass traps and other acoustic treatments...at any rate I really wanted to hear about this issue noted in the review from others.
Of course the majority of the review was very positive, especially comments on the other frequencies that he compared in a favorable light to his beloved planar speakers. Not bad for an dynamic speaker.
Thx
BP

There is a review of the Model 9s in the most recent Absolute Sound. Although overall it was positive, the reviewer had some issues with the bass, but admitted that the room (basically a square) made it more challenging to set up. The reviewer normally listens to planar speakers (I forget which ones) and compared the 9s top end favorably with them. Be sure to also read Michael Kelly's response to the review in the back.

I am also looking to purchase a set of 9s in the near future, and the review has not dissuaded me from them. I plan to start with 5.1 using a pair of Model 9s for L/R, CC5 for Center, Model 6s for Rears, and SW-12 for LFE. SR-3 surrounds will come later. Amplification is all Anthem Statement. It's another great combination.

Cheers,
Tom

I just read this ENTIRE thread and it was quite pleasing... It does, however, make me question if I should just pick up a set of used 10T speakers and not worry about the model 9's... Any comments or opinions on that?

I just ordered the 9's because my wife just could not stand the styling of the 10T. So in a week or so I will have 10T's, 9's, and my old 7B's in the house :D. I plan on doing a comparision and will post my opinions.

Sweet! This is what I was hoping for. I am also wondering which one will mate up with the CC5 the best...

I just read this ENTIRE thread and it was quite pleasing... It does, however, make me question if I should just pick up a set of used 10T speakers and not worry about the model 9's... Any comments or opinions on that?

I'd listen to both before making that decision. They are both very good. I love my 10T's however - you can get GREAT deals on them too - much better than the 9's due to their age.

Agreed the 10's are a great deal, but for me the WAF was insurmountable. I have the CC5 (I upgraded from the CC3 and what a huge difference), so this christmas will be fun. If the 9's sound better to me I'll be fine. But for the price diff I'm hoping for a pretty big improvement. One thing in my favor is that I'm really placing the 10's too close to the back wall, about 8 inches. Micheal Kelly recommended 18 inches min. The 9's are supposed to be more forgiving as far as that goes.

Thee CC5 is just an insane center channel speaker. I barely need a subwoofer now that I have it. :)

Though I don't have a wife, the women I know who have made a comment about my 10Ts have all made positive comments. They all thought they were considerably better looking than any other speaker they'd seen before. But then again, none of them had been
exposed to many audiophile products.

I don't deny that many newer speakers, even in the same size class, would be even more acceptable to the aveage woman than 10Ts, but then again, 10Ts are a design that's
over a decade old. (I think they were first produced in 1994.)


CJ

I really think that the LR5 on the stand looks pretty darn good too. Just my opinion... :)

I too think the 10's are great looking speakers, I'm not so sure about the LR5's ( although I love their sound). But I live in a very traditional house and I do think the 10's blend in better with more contemporary styles or with a dedicated home theater room. Since the 9's have a more traditional speaker look I think my wife was more receptive to them. I am interested because the narrow front mimics the 10's head, but is carried all the way down. Plus with that sloping top no idiots can put their drinks on top :D.

I just ordered the 9's because my wife just could not stand the styling of the 10T. So in a week or so I will have 10T's, 9's, and my old 7B's in the house :D. I plan on doing a comparision and will post my opinions.
My wife and I have a deal that I can do anything I want in the theater. That was the deal she cut to get the house she wanted. She said nothing until I auditioned the B&W N802s. Then she begged me not to get them, saying," They look like little spacemen :)" I actually preferred another speaker which she became enthusiastic about to steer me away from the B&W's. Women :D. I like the look of the N802. Most wives will find few large speakers attractive. Martin Logan seems to have a high WAF though.

I guess I should of started with some Wilsons or the Avalon Sentinels (neither of which I can afford). Compared to those my wife would of been thrilled with the 10's. Actually I really shouldn't be buying the 9's-I hope the stock market stays strong!

One more question regarding amping the Aerials. I have been pricing used Bryston 6BSST's at $3,000-3,500 used, while Krell kav-250a/3 typicall sell for around $2,000.

Any input on these Krells would be helpful especially if I could save a $1000.

I no longer have my 10T's, but a set of amps that I bought that made them absolutely sing was the Parasound Halo JC-1 Monoblocks. For the money you're talking about, I would give them a consideration. If you have local dealer that you're dealing with, I'd suggest that after you get your 10T's that you audition these different amps with your 10T's if you can. You'd be surprised at the difference, different amplifiers make!

Oddly enough, the speakers that I replaced my 10T's with were a pair of Von Schwiekert VR-4 SR's.

I have the 6BSST's and will second them for the 10T's, or the 7B's and will shortly bre trying it with the 9's. The Proceed HPA 3 is a killer amp too and was reccomended to me by Micheal Kelly for the 7B's which are close in their inefficiency to the 10T's. The only other amp that would tempt me would be a 3 channel Anthem amp.

I've had the 10T's for years but thought my old Acurus amp was under-powered for them. Today I took delivery on a brand new CC5 center (to replace my CC3) and a new Sunfire TGA 5400 amp (400W x 5 into 8 ohms) partly because I wanted a cool running amp. I am slightly underwhelmed by the center performance and am wondering if the amp pairing was a poor choice. But maybe it's just break-in. Or buyer's remorse? Any comments?

I would suspect the amp as the culprit. Try a more high current amp like Classe, Bryston, Anthem, Proceed, etc. I've personally used the Proceed Amp 5, (and while I liked it a lot I would now get a HPA 3 & 2), and the Bryston 6bsst. Used on Audiogon they are reasonable.

The CC5 should NOT be underwhelming - it continues to amaze me. I am bi-amping mine with about 500W. It needs plenty of power for those those 9" drivers.

You might want to play around with the various settings on the back of the speaker to fine tune it. The different settings made quite a bit of difference in my room.

If it's brand new I would surmise that it also needs to finish breaking in.

Give it time. I do agree w/ the statements about the power though. My CC5 didnt reveal its full potential until I powered it with Bryston 7B SST. I had previously powered it (bi-amped) with an anthem MCA50. Play around with the crossover on the back as well, you will find that the setting you choose WILL make a difference depending on room configuration. This CC5 is by far the best center I have ever heard, when set up correctly, you will see it is just plain effortless.

Thanks for the advice. I was listening to some CDs with just the 10Ts last night and the Sunfire and it totally blew me away. I was up till 2:00 on xmas eve, couldn't stop till Santa yanked me off. Huge soundstage, really floored me. There speakers are 10 years old. I can't imagine what the 20Ts are like!!

There are two things I'm noticing now:

1. The CC5's spectrum response seems quite different from the 10Ts. When I send pink noise through them, the CC5 is much darker sounding, more mid-rangy. I have played with the controls in back and they don't close the gap very much. I was expecting a closer match, but maybe the CC5 is intentionally more midrangy to produce vocals while the 10Ts are more balanced for music?

2. Putting the THXOptimiter 200 to 20 hz sweep through these speakers shows an interesting drop-off toward the very bottom, I'd guess below ~80 hz, but then they come back again at the VERY bottom like at 30-20hz. There is just this weird drop off just above the bottom. All three speakers show this (yes they're all set to Large and I've taken out the sub), and my sound meter says the same thing as my ears. Could be my room, but happens even when my ear is right next to the woofers. I've swapped out both my amp and pre/pro with older equipment which shows the exact same thing. Can't figure out if it's the room or the speakers. Any advice on this appreciated.

Hi Tomhahn,

Could it be the tilt of the center speaker? Your center might be flat on a table and lower to the floor where the 10T's are up higher with the midrange/tweeter head tilted back. You might just need to lift up the front of your CC5 to get more of the direct sound from the center. You might be getting an early reflection off the floor in front of the CC5. Your 10T's might have reflections off walls and sound brighter than they should. It could be a number of things causing the tonal differences. Different amplifiers can cause tonal shifts as well.

The dip in bass is probably your room.

Ron

Thanks, Ron. I'm using the Aerial CC5 stand (old model) which puts the top at 30" and is tilted up to point right at the prime listener's head. But you're right that the tweeter is much lower than the 10T's.

I'm going to phrase my question a little more directly, although you may have already answered it, implicitly:

Should I expect to hear essentially the same tonal balance from a 10T and a CC5 when fed an identical signal? Should a blindfolded listener be able to tell them apart? Sounds like a stupid question... "Of course not, they're different speakers, dummy!" Ok, if that's the answer then: Can you characterize what the difference should sound like?

Anyone with 10T's + CC5 out there? Thanks.

I have 10T's and a CC5 - but have never fed identical signals through them to compare so unfortunately I can't offer any insight. I do think the CC5 blends fine with the 10T's however.

Jim

Tom,

I don't have the CC5 but my CC3 sounds almost identical to my 10T's. I had to play with the tilt of the center to get it just right though. You'll be surprised at how much a slight tilt change will sound. You really need to minimize early reflections for it to sound perfect. If the symmetry of the room is not the same on each side of he room even the two front left and right will sound different. How close to the wall is each speaker? Do you have the center very close to the wall and are you using equal distances from each of the three front channels to the listening position? That will make a difference and will probably help with your bass frequency dip if the front three are different distances from the front wall. You really need to experiment.

Jim, You can evaluate the tonal differences between all channels using the test tones in most processors for calibrating the levels of all channels. As the test tones change from one speaker to the next the tonal balance shouldn't change much at all.

Ron

Tom,

What you're reporting with respect to the !0T/CC5 mismatch doesn't sound right. It's hard to tell the difference of degree from your description, but Michael Kelly voiced the CC5 to be very close to the 10Ts--I have heard that combo sound seamless on several occasions and IMO the CC5 is one of the finest centers ever made. If it sounds obviously darker, I wonder if you might have a defective tweeter (this happened to me when I finally found a used Von Schwiekert LCR-20 to match my VR-4 Gen IIs; in my case, I bought it used and it turned out the voice coil had been damaged and it had the kind of mismatch you mention; once repaired it is an excellent match).

Another thing to check is the position of the CC5 relative to your display--are they flush? The display may be interfering--have you tried pulling the CC5 a little out in front and seeing if the sound changes?

The LF variance you report sounds like a room mode--either a boom at the bottom or a suckout above it, or both. If you're really hearing a boost in the 20-30 Hz range it's most likely the room, as even the 10Ts real-world extension drops off in that range. The sad fact is that placement for good LF performance will rarely (i.e., almost never) correspond to placement for good imaging. That is the principal advantage in using a subwoofer, even if it seems like you're "wasting" the LF capabilities of your speakers. Keep in mind the real issue isn't squeezing every frequency out of your speakers, it's getting the best overall response from your system in your room. In short, even the 10Ts will perform better if you cross over to a sub.

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

Thanks, guys, man I love this forum.

Taking your suggestions I did play more with the various controls, tilt, placement and did get them closer. I don't think the tweeters differ at all, it's more that the midrange is slightly accentuated in the CC5 which seems almost inevitable from the different arrangement/configuration of the drivers.

In short I think I am obsessing too much over test tones. Last night I sat down to watch a few scenes from WOTW and wound up watching the whole film (for the third time). Who cares about test tones, I was just blown away by the dynamics, imaging and clarity. The speakers seem to mesh just fine in practice. Sounds pan along the soundstage quite smoothly despite the height difference. What the hell am I worrying about?

Philip, thanks for the comment about xover. I have been feeling guilty about setting my $$$ speakers to Small! On the other hand, my new Fantom F113 is so amazing and scary it's hard to feel too guilty, it is a great partner in this setup.

Two more questions and then I will (probably) leave you alone:

1. What crossover point do you use with these speakers?

2. I have to get a new pre/pro (sorry, this is a little OT). I want it to have HDMI for LPCM audio from new HD players. Any suggestions for a good match? (Mostly I watch movies. My budget is $12k).

Thanks again, folks.

Tom

Two more questions and then I will (probably) leave you alone:

1. What crossover point do you use with these speakers?

2. I have to get a new pre/pro (sorry, this is a little OT). I want it to have HDMI for LPCM audio from new HD players. Any suggestions for a good match? (Mostly I watch movies. My budget is $12k).

Thanks again, folks.

Tom

1. A common rule of thumb is to cross over 1 octave above the natural roll-off of the speakers, so with the 10Ts 40 hz would be a good place to start experimenting. 40 Hz is also a good number in that it preserves localization cues which are audible down to that frequency.


2. To my knowledge, the Lexicon MC-12HD is the only high-end pre-pro currently supporting hi-res multichannel LPCM audio over HDMI. I own one and am very happy with it, both sonically and for its unique proprietary surround processing.

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

p.s., I'm glad you are happier with your center match. A key thing to listen for is how things sound when panning--a voice or car travelling from Left to Center to Right should not change in timbre or otherwise call attention to itself when changing speakers.

Hi Tom,

You were unimpressed with the CC5 before you tweaked a bit so it worked out that you did tweak, didn't it?

Enjoy!

Ron

Philip, thanks for the "sound" advice.

Hi Tom,

You were unimpressed with the CC5 before you tweaked a bit so it worked out that you did tweak, didn't it?

Enjoy!

Ron

I wouldn't say I was unimpressed, I was probably looking for more of a night and day difference between it and my CC3, which was maybe a little over-optimistic. They are both wonderful pieces.

I was a little wary of the fact that there is a 7 or 8 year difference between the manufacture dates of my 10Ts and the new CC5. Aerial doesn't seem to have the sales presence it once did; if fact my original dealer doesn't even carry them any more saying "there have been significant advances in speaker technology since these speakers were designed." In any case, I was wondering if the company is in decline, and if so could they keep their supplier chain line, manufacturing materials and their quality control up to where they could produce a speaker that mated well with one they built 7 or 8 years ago? Would a CC5 made that long ago sound different? Maybe to be sure I need to buy some recently built 20T's :) (Only half-joking. But in the same vein, is a brand-new 20T the creature it once was?)

In any case, I am very happy in no small part due to your advice and will be happier still with a new pre/pro. I am thinking about the MC-12 but also the Halcro which (according to some) sounds better, but will not be upgraded to handle LPCM on HDMI for some months.

Philip, do you have the room EQ option for the MC-12, if so is it useful?

After coming across this great thread a few days ago, I am also starting to get the urge to upgrade my system. :) I have had my system since 1998 and absolutely love the Aerials, so I am looking to stay with them as I consider the upgrade options

Current System
Speakers: Front L/R - Aerial Model 8, Center - CC3, Sides - SR3 and Rears –NHT?. I also have two SW-12s Front L/R and a Velodyne FSR-18 for the LFE channel.
Amps: Aragon 8008X3 for F/R/C and Parasound 2205A for sides and rears
Preamp: Lexicon MC-12 in the process of being upgraded to MC-12BHD with room EQ

Upgrade Options in order of priority:

(Center) CC3 to CC5 - this was an easy one

(Front L/R) Model 8 to Model 9 or 10T – Not sure if the 10T is more of a sideways move and is the 9 a significant enough upgrade, the 20T is outside my budget

(Rear) 8s, CC3, SR3 or LR5/LR3s – Not sure if I can use the 8s in the rear due to space restrictions, I could get an additional CC3 and mount them on the wall either horizontally or vertically. The SR3 in bipole mode also appear to be a good option

(Side) SR3 in dipole mode – Currently not planning to make any changes primarily due to space restrictions

(LFE-Sub) – looking for suggestions

(Amps) – started looking at the Brystons, Mark Levinsons and Krell as potential options.


Suggestions on these options would be highly appreciated. Thanks.

Arvi

Tom.

Room EQ is essential in any pre/pro, IMO, since half of what you hear is the room. Lexicon and Meridian offer unique approaches to it: rather than simply flattening the room-boosted frequencies, they also use decay processing to control the ringing at resonant mode frequencies; this has audible benefits throughout the audible range. You can read some interesting design info about how it operates in the first section of the Lexicon Room EQ User Manual:
http://www.lexicon.com/products/download-details.asp?ID=15&FileID=104

As far as my own priorities go, if I'm investing in a surround processor, I'm more inclined towards companies that push the technology envelope rather than plugging in OEM/off-the-shelf processing. But that's hard to come by--very few companies have the in-house resources or expertise of acoustical engineers like Lexicon's Jim Mueller (Room EQ) and Dave Griesinger (Logic 7), or Meridian's Bob Stuart.

BTW, the comments you heard from your dealer about Aerials being outdated is pure BS. Michael Kelly is one of the finest speaker designers alive. It is precisely because of his perfectionism and refusal to cut corners that he doesn't meet some dealers' desires for mass output and rapid product obsolescence. You have a superb system, and your CC5 is still a great match for the 10Ts.

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

Arvi,

I would consider the Aerial LR5, which use identical drivers to the CC5 and were intended to form a perfect L-C-R array. The LR5 doesn't have the LF extension of the 10Ts, but it isn't a factor if you cross over to a sub for the reasons in my previous post.

I would only use the CC3 in a horizontal orientation as its drivers are designed specifically for that purpose and you will introduce lobing effects if you rotate it; LR5s or 3s would be a better choice for surrounds.

I would also put your better surrounds at the sides as sides are more important for continuity in extending the frontal soundfield; SR3s (in bipole) would be better for the rears than sides since our hearing isn't as good in the rear anyway.

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

Guys,

As a long time B&W fan (802N and HTM1) I made the switch to model 9's and a CC5. Rears are still not bought yet..

I heard the 20's powered by Theta Citadels and was immediately converted! I cannot afford the 20's so next best thing was the 9's. I have my CBiii and Dread2 ready to go as soon as I unbox the speakers and set them up.

Think i will need a new CD transport soon. My Theta DaViD is getting a little old and short of sending it back to Theta for a refurbish I will be on the look out for a (predominantly) CD transport.

I thnk the Blue Ray players are where I want to go from a DVD source.

Anyhow, as soon as I hvae things squared away I will post a review.

Regards,

if fact my original dealer doesn't even carry them any more saying "there have been significant advances in speaker technology since these speakers were designed."

There have been no significant advance in speaker technology in the last few decades. There has been significant refinement of existing technologies over that time period, and the Aerial 10T is one of the finest expressions of the box speaker design paradigm out there.

--Andre

There have been no significant advance in speaker technology in the last few decades.
Andre,

I think Bruce Thigpen's Rotary Subwoofer; the Thigpen Rotary Woofer or TRW
is an exception to the above.

The design is totally UNLIKE any heretofore audio transducer. It reproduces
sounds in the < 20Hz regime. Instruments produce these low-order spectral
content, even though it's not the instruments primary intent.

There have been no significant advance in speaker technology in the last few decades. There has been significant refinement of existing technologies over that time period, and the Aerial 10T is one of the finest expressions of the box speaker design paradigm out there.

--Andre

I beg to differ.. This is often repeated, it as saying that every new song is a refinement of the seven basic notes...

I would consider the Aerial LR5, which use identical drivers to the CC5 and were intended to form a perfect L-C-R array. The LR5 doesn't have the LF extension of the 10Ts, but it isn't a factor if you cross over to a sub for the reasons in my previous post.
Philip, Thanks for the suggestions. I am heading out tomorrow to a dealer in MA and will be auditioning the 20T, 10Ts (used), 9s as well as the LR5s for the fronts.

I would only use the CC3 in a horizontal orientation as its drivers are designed specifically for that purpose and you will introduce lobing effects if you rotate it; LR5s or 3s would be a better choice for surrounds.

Agree, I should be able to place them in a horizontal position as the real channels

I would also put your better surrounds at the sides as sides are more important for continuity in extending the frontal soundfield; SR3s (in bipole) would be better for the rears than sides since our hearing isn't as good in the rear anyway.

Placement of the side channels is going to be the biggest challenge for me. The room is 14.5ft wide by 21.5ft long ..... so not really enough space on the sides for something bigger especially floor standing unless I give up on some of the seating :(

I beg to differ.. This is often repeated, it as saying that every new song is a refinement of the seven basic notes...

OK. Please name a few examples, and the reasons why you think they represent a significant advance in speaker technology. I think the Thiele-Small theory of loudspeaker design is an example of a significant advance because it allowed people to design and build speakers of relatively consistent and predictable response. I think the QUAD ESL and ESL-63 are significant advances because of the way they used a new transducer technology packaged into an acceptable size giving significantly better fidelity than contemporaneous speakers.

Morbius,

While I agree Thigpen's rotary woofer is different, and from the sounds of it, effective, I'm not sure sub-20 Hz reproduction alone is sufficient justification since many other technologies can do that already.

--Andre

Placement of the side channels is going to be the biggest challenge for me. The room is 14.5ft wide by 21.5ft long ..... so not really enough space on the sides for something bigger especially floor standing unless I give up on some of the seating :(

There's no reason why you couldn't use wall-mounted LR5s or LR3s--they were designed with that possible use in mind (I also recommend elevating them with tweeters at least 1.5 ft. above ear level.

The point is that side speakers are essential for two functions: (1) lateral imaging, and (2) extending the natural range of the front soundstage. Both are accomplished more effectively with speakers timbre-matched to your fronts than with bipolar mush. The SR3s can work fine in the rear, for reasons already mentioned.

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

p.s. - by all means enjoy the 20Ts--they are magnificent speakers. But there is no adequately matching center, and they should really only be considered for a 2-channel system IMO.

I was finally able to go and check out the Model 9s and 20Ts last week.

Before heading out, I had a chance to speak with Michael Kelly about potential upgrade options. Relative to the 8s, he indicated that the 10Ts would not be a significant upgrade. The model 9s and LR5 would be good options while the 20T would certainly be the best upgrade :D .

So how did demo turn out…. As everybody has said, the 20Ts are phenomenal indeed, but clearly outside my price range especially since am I also upgrading the Lexicon and my projector.

The 9s are a really nice set of speakers and very elegant looking. They were initially hooked up to a McIntosh 501 and latter I also tried them with a Mark Levinson 334 that they had on hand. They sounded great and have a phenomenal sound stage. The top end was pristine and neutral; each instrument could be heard in its own space. The base was much tighter and initially weak since I was comparing them to my 8s with the SW12s (my current setup). Latter on, as I got used to them, the base certainly felt more than adequate. Towards the end, I also got to hear a pair of used 10Ts they had on hand. This is another really great speaker. However, comparing the two, the high and mid end sounded better integrated and smoother on the 9s, while the 10Ts had a flatter some what boomier base. So, yes the Model 9 is better compared to the 10T, however, once you factor in the price difference, it is harder to decide.

After getting back home I have spent a considerable amount of time with my model 8s and continue to be amazed at how good they are. I also decided to disable the SW12s and was even more amazed at how good they sounded as full range speakers. During the tweaking process, I have also found a slightly modified location were they sound even better. Actually, I have developed a new respect and love for these 8 year old speakers.

Another interesting observation, I have started experimenting with the Model 8s as side speakers and have come to the conclusion that the SR3s need to go. They are great surround speakers but pale in comparison to the model 8s. The 8s need space and ultimately cannot be side speakers. They will most likely go into the pool room for 2 channel music :) .

So, where does all this leave me with the upgrade fever I had developed during Christmas?

(Center) CC3 to CC5 – (Note: I did not get a chance to demo these yet)
(Front L/R) Model 8 to Model 9 (or LR5 with SW12)
(Sides) SR3 to LR5/LR3 or 7b (not sure if the 7bs can be mounted close to the wall)
(Rear) NHT zero to CC3
(Subs) two SW12s for Front L/R (since I already have them for HT)

Philip, I know you had suggested the LR5 for front and sides but did not get a chance to demo them yet. They certainly make a lot of sense from a HT standpoint, and would be a significant upgrade from the SR3s. I hope to demo them and the LR3s in the near future and will then make a final decision on the upgrade list.

I personally think youre making a small blunder by replacing your SR3s for your surrounds. From the room size, I think I read it correctly, the SR3s are what is called for. Your room is close to my room dimensions, and if that is the case, I just cant see where in the world a floorstander is supposed to go?
And even if you went with the LR3s they fire directly at the listening position and would take away from your surround experience. And if you can afford LR5s for the sides, or rears, man, just do that all the way around.
NOTICE OF DISCLAIMER: these are only my opinions, and in no way, shape or form, does it make them correct, or wrong. Simply opinions.

p.s. the 7bs are a floorstander, and I wouldnt recommend wall mounting them as you suggested. You probably meant to say "placed"?

You might also want to consider Model 6s for your rear speakers. I've been told that they pair very nicely with the Model 9s. Of course, they are not wall mountable, if that's a preference/requirement.

Cheers,
Tom

Amplifier selection will change the way a speaker sounds. The 10T's were under damped for bass response. The right amplifier will make the bass sing on 10T's. The 9's are awesome speakers and I'm not saying they are not better but I know in the right system 10T's are still an awesome speaker. The little shelf just in front of the Novalith heads is a reflection point that mucks up the midrange as well as the metal rod in the head for the head to swivel. Remove the rod, use small flat rubber feet (3) to place the head and put felt on top for the 10T bass cabinet and you have a new speaker.

Ron

I personally think youre making a small blunder by replacing your SR3s for your surrounds. From the room size, I think I read it correctly, the SR3s are what is called for. Your room is close to my room dimensions, and if that is the case, I just cant see where in the world a floorstander is supposed to go?
Thanks for your honest opinions and you are absolutely correct. Given the room dimensions (14.5ft W X 21.5ft L), I would have to eliminate at least one of the front row chairs (currently 3) in order to accommodate something like the LR5 on the sides. Furthermore, the equipment rack is also on the side wall making placement of a larger side speaker really quite difficult.
And even if you went with the LR3s they fire directly at the listening position and would take away from your surround experience. People are using full range speakers such as 10Ts, LR5 as surrounds with good results. This is especially true with the Lexicon 12B since you have side and rear channels to create the surround effects.
However, given the practical limitations I am running into, I will most likely have to reconcile with keeping the SR3s as surrounds.

I am also wondering if the move from a Model 8 to a 9 will be a significant enough upgrade. Maybe save up and eventually get the 20Ts, In speaking with the Aerial folks, the CC5 can integrate well with the 20Ts as well. This would yield decent improvement for HT and significant enhancement for 2 channel music. I spend 50/50 time for music and HT. Opinions welcome.

If you can do the 20Ts, dont even hesitate, what an incredible speaker, if I could've afforded to go that route, I would have, but another 12-14,000 on top of all my recent additions and I would be broke! The 9s are a significant upgrade from the 8s, I own them, and besides the 20Ts, they are (for me) the best sounding speaker I have ever heard. (my opinion only, yes I know everyone has there preference, so lets let that be what it is, my opinion) The 9s are a very fast, tight, uncolored, and spacious speaker. Layer after layer of audio nirvana. Huge soundstage, perfect imaging, and a real sense of being there, they also produce low frequencies with authority. I also use a CC3B for my rear surround, as a personal preference to have that channel locatable for when we watch movies w/ the 6.1 discrete, I've had 7.1 with a different system, using tripole surrounds as well, and even though I was "surrounded" with sound, there wasnt the sense of the sound coming from the rear matching what I was seeing on screen, so I understand where you hear that direct radiating speakers will work for your surrounds, I just think that the SR3s, along with a directional speaker in the rear gives the sense of space, and lets the surrounds surround you so to speak, what comes from the rear, starts there, and ends up, up front, and vise versa. I guess what I'm getting at is that the (for me) the surrounds enhance the experience whereas the rear(s) and fronts are more enjoyable if they are locatable, and give direction to the effects that are being watched. Just my 1/2 cent. Either way you decide to go, you are doing it right in my opinion, so long as it works in your room.

Talk about the 20Ts, I was talking with Michael Kelly of Aerial Acoustics yesterday, and Michael mentioned how since he introduced the 20T, he has revised it to significantly improve its bass performance!!!!

Which, is a feat in itself! I've had the pleasure, and luck, to hear two different 20T setups, after I purchased the 9s, and all I can really come up with is "WOW", nothing is there if it wasnt meant to be, and if it was meant to be there, regardless of how subtle, it is. My 9s sound absolutely incredible, very nuetral, quick, and spacious, but the 20T is really twice the speaker, in just about all regards. Mike Kelly is quite the engineer, and a fun guy to talk with as Steve mentioned, just be sure to allow some time if you do in fact call, because he is not the most short winded guy I know!

Steve, is the bass improvement you speak of, quickness? Just curious as that is the ONLY thing about my 9s I feel is better than the 20Ts, theres an "airy" quality that the 20Ts deliver that my 9s just cannot reproduce, and it isnt because the 9s are a bad speaker, its because the 20Ts are that good.

A question for you Aerial lovers out there.

I'm in the midst of setting up a home theater room (not dedicated, but multi-purpose) in my new home. I've auditioned three center-channel speakers so far and found all of them lacking in one way or another (these were: M&K S150THX, Mirage MC-si, Mirage OMD-C1). Next week, I'm scheduled to go give the Aerial CC3 a listen, paired with the 7b left and right.

What I'd like to know from those of you who have the CC3 is how much the sonic character of the speaker changes as you move from the center seat to the sides. I'll have a couple of rows of informal seating in the theater room, and I don't want to have only one seat in the house have good sound.

It's this side-to-side thing that caused me to reject the Mirage MC-si -- its sound changed too much as you got off axis. The M&K stayed pretty consistent as would be expected from a THX speaker, and the Mirage's "omnipolar" arrangement does seem to maintain a fairly even character to the sides as well, but both of those speakers were lacking in the resonant qualities of male voices (I was listening to Christopher Lee and Sir Ian McKellan from Lord of the Rings, for example).

The 3 way design of the CC3 and the CC5 do not suffer from the combing of two way designs. I have a CC3 with 10T's and there isn't much of any change when I sit anywhere in the room. Great center channels. If you have the room go for the CC5 and you will be blown away. My CC3 still rocks and it can play real loud if you have enough amplifier power. It never sounds stressed powered by my 7BST and I've cranked it right up to the power supply rails. Although I do crossover at 80Hz. The CC5 you could run full range and do the same.

Thanks for that! The Mirage MC-si is indeed a 2-way.

I don't think I have room for the CC5, but I think the dealer said he had a CC5, so I'll try to see it when I go. My room is 14x18, with the screen on the narrower wall, so I'm not sure if I can really fit the CC5 reasonably.

For power, I have a Sunfire Cinema 7. It's 200W into 8Ω and 400W into 4Ω. I'm hoping that this will be plenty to drive the Aerial speakers. A similar amp drove my Mirage M1s (also rather inefficient speakers) beautifully.

I don't have an Aerial center channel but I do have a Phase Tech PC-3 (not the later A version) and I can say that it is an EXCELLENT tonal match for 10Ts. It will certainly do if you can't find an Aerial CC.

CJ

Go with a CC5 if at all possible... but plan to bi-amp it with 2-channels from your Sunfire! :)

Come on, seriously. How could it possibly want 800W? What SPL are you folks listening at? :)

I do actually have a second Sunfire.... ;)