Denon DVD-3930 & DVD-2930 w/Realta T2 Chip Coming September- [Text View] - Page 3

HansR

08-10-06, 11:49 AM

I am the owner of a Denon 2910 (which feeds a 65” Mitsubishi 1080p DLP set via HDMI) who has just bought a 2930. Overall, I have been very impressed with the previous combination - nonetheless, I am exploring upgrading to a 2930 or 3930 for two reasons.

First - On 90% of WELL MASTERED DVDs that are taken from GOOD SOURCES, my current combination looks superb - easily rivaling the HDTV channels I get from Comcast (as they are so highly compressed - Discovery HD being the notable exception).

HOWEVER, even the best disks all seem to exhibit some macro-blocking. You see it, for example, on any of the Star Wars disks in scenes that are dominated by black star-fields. Bugs the heck out of me. The Realta implementation in the 5910 has apparently entirely eradicated this. That alone would be enough to make the switch.

Secondly - like many newer displays, my new Mitsubishi is 1080P native - and the most the 2910 can spit out is 1080i. So I have my choice of handing off 720p and letting the sets inferior scalers kick in (I do notice a slight loss of resolution and apparent sharpness vs. the 1080i feed) OR I can give it 1080i and let the sets inferior de-interlacer kick in (I then notice some motion artifacts). It would clearly be ideal to have a single deinterlacing and a single scaling process - as opposed to multiple processes - and to do it on the best platform.

Yesterday (August 9) I my 2930 finally arrived. I brought it home with high expectations and walked away a bit disappointed.

Physically, the thing is impressive. It weights 17lbs, vs 12lbs for the 2910. It is also 2.5" deeper, (15.25", not accounting for room for cable protrusion) - which may be challenging in some shallower racks.

For initial testing, I used clips from about two dozen different films - old, new, anamorphic, non-anamorphic, well sourced and mastered, not so well mastered and/or sourced. Etc.

Usability in a couple key areas is improved. For example, the tediously slow responsiveness of the 2910 and 3910 to user commands (pulling up the menu, switching chapters, etc) is greatly improved - you no longer feel like you are waiting forever.

The unit also adds an "auto" option to it's Squeeze Mode - something formerly only available on the $3,500 5910. Most widescreens fed progressive signals automatically "stretch" them to fill the 16x9 screen whether they are anamorphically recorded or not. With the previous players, you had to manually toggle this (nestled several menu items down). The 2910, in auto, seems to detect and toggle this for you, flawlessly (ran a whole batch of film clips through).

Lastly on "usability," I found some problem DVDs that my old 2910 would hang on (disks were totally clean -apparently mastering issues) which now present no problem to the player.

Having said all that, the PRIMARY reason I would consider dropping nearly $1k on a SD DVD player is video quality. That's where, at least based on my first 6 hours with this thing, I walked away disappointed.

Macroblocking (MB) does indeed appear to be gone. HOWEVER, in the same difficult scenes where macro-blocking usually occurs (darker, slight shade gradation), you now have what I would call "micro-blocking" (mB). This amounts to a far larger number of now much smaller but still randomly shimmering and moving blocks. In many scenes, this IS far less visible and distracting than the MB. The "Star Wars III" beginning (scrolling words followed by only a starfield) is a good example of this. The scene in "Firewall" where Jack "Harrison Ford" retreats to the closet when Bill shoots Harry was really annoying with MB all over the dark closet and the yellowish outside of the closet door. It is way improved on the 2930, with mB shimmering in the closet dark areas, and virtually no artifacts on the yellow exterior.

On the other hand, there are other scenes which never had notable MB that now show mB - often significantly. The scene in "Last Samurai" in which Tom Cruise's character enters a room to look at Taka's dead husband's red Samurai warrior "suit" is a good example. Cruise is wearing black and his outfit, as he enters the room, is just crawling (notably) with these mB artifacts. There are virtually no MB artifacts in the 2910. In "Lord of the Rings III" - an average master given how much they had to compress it to fit it on a single dual layer disk - many of the darker scenes are now crawling with these mB artifacts. While MB was present in most of these earlier, this looks MUCH nosier.

To rid yourself of this effect, you have to kick the MPEG NR filter on (fairly high) which results in an absolutely awful (soft, smeared) picture.

Overall, in terms of MB vs mB - the 2930 still seems to be a clear improvement. But not without tradeoffs.

Now, beyond MB....my first impression is that this is a step backwards in terms of visual quality. I noticed no improvement in sharpness regardless of how I tweaked or turned off the various enhancement and sharpness settings. In many cases, I noticed what seemed to be a softer picture - blurring and loss of detail. This was particularly noticeable in the hair in midrange to close-up shots of heads: "STW III" - beginning of Chapter 26, the princess's hair looks to be more of a brownish blob than anything else; The "Mask of Zoro" (Superbit edition), near the beginning of Chapter 7, Zeta Jones' hair; "Firewall" - LOTS of different shots of Harrison Ford's head; "Flight Plan", Chapter 2 - the little girl's hair.

The other feature of these new Denon decks I was interested in was their 1080p output as my display converts everything to 1080p (and accepts 1080p inputs). I had noticed greater sharpness (vs a 720p feed) but occasional motion artifacts when feeding a 1080i signal to my display. This was primarily in very smooth pans or shots of very smoothly moving objects - the motion would then exhibit a slight "jerkiness." This jerkiness was indeed gone with a 1080p feed, but no other visual benefit of the 1080p (over the 1080i) was apparent. I should say that this "artifact" is not evident in many scenes as you really do need very smooth movement. And even then, you have to be looking for it a little bit.

So, based on this first impression, it seems that, in replacing the Faroudja solution with the new Silicon Optics chip, Denon has largely tackled the MB issue but taken a step backwards in the sharpness of the picture without any other notable improvements.

This could be simply a result of un-refined firmware (my deck indicates a May '06 build date) which might be fixable; could be the result of a poor implementation of the HQV algorithms in the new Reon chip; or perhaps even the scaler. I don't know what Denon used for scaling in anything but the 5910 (where it is a highly regarded DVDO chipset). Faroudja provided scaling on it's chipsets, Silicon Optics also does on the Realta, but apparently not on the Reon (at least it is not advertised).

Other than that, this deck does put out a true 1080p feed which, for those few displays that are 1080p AND accept native input, may provide a slight benefit in motion fluidity.

CONCLUSION thus far: the usability enhancements are nice but are primarily convenience issues. I care a lot about video quality and the deck is, on first impressions, a mixed bag. MB is definitely improved (but not without some tradeoffs), 1080p works but with minor advantage, detail IN SOME SCENES FROM SOME FILMS appears markedly worse while not appearing noticeably better on any material. On the most superbly mastered disks from the best source material ("SW III" and the Superbit of "Spider Man 2", for example) this is not the case. But on lesser and yet still decent material (the majority of what is out there) like "Flight Plan," "Firewall" and many others - this comes across as a net loss in picture quality to me.

These are only first impressions. My display has two HDMI inputs, so this weekend I will set it up to be able to do true A/B switching between the 2910 and 2930 to compare. My display is already calibrated but I will play more with the deck settings.

If, in the end, the picture quality appears to be a tossup, I may keep the new deck for usability. If, however, my impression remains that of a net loss in picture quality, this deck is going back.

HansR

08-10-06, 12:04 PM

Should note I have ordered the SO HQV test disk and will run it through that when it arrives.

For me at least, over the years, I have ultimately found more value in running my setup through a large battery of "real world" clips and disks that I'm very familiar with and that span the range from great quality to poor quality. My test batch last night was from roughly 2 dozen film sources and a couple video sources.

Display calibration, of course, is a different matter.

On the decks themselves, I have a 2910 for A/B comparison, access to a 3910, but not a 5910. If steviec still has the 5910, it would be very interesting to see how the two stack up as I imagine the as yet unavailable 3930 implementation will be closer to it except for the DVDO scaler.

bri1270

08-10-06, 12:05 PM

Nicely written HansR - much appreciated!! Looking forward to your A/B and also to StevieC's impressions.

umberto eco

08-10-06, 12:35 PM

Hans, thanks for the first impressions.

Have you tried the 2930 at 480p to the display? This might help to clarify if the 'microblocking' you speak of is being introduced by the scaling of the Reon, or whether it's something inherent in the source that's simply being masked by the macroblocking of the 2910.

Also, do you have a 3rd DVD player (non faroudja) that you could compare with in order to further deduce how this 'microblocking' is being introduced?

Cheers.

bluer101

08-10-06, 01:15 PM

Nice review. I'm going to still wait for more reviews to be posted. I recently bought a Denon 2910 (New) for cheap and have been thinking of changing to the 2930, but if its not any better, than I will keepo the 2910. :)

DavidHir

08-10-06, 01:35 PM

Hans, nice review. Very interesting stuff.

PooperScooper

08-10-06, 02:25 PM

I can't believe neither owner wants to start a Denon 2930 Owners thread (or Official Denon 2930 thread). Normally you have to beg people not to start new threads for things. :) It will be more important once the 3930 is out.

larry

PooperScooper

08-10-06, 02:33 PM

HansR,
I'd be really surprised if the "microblocking" or whatever you see is not a 1) cablibration, 2) display limitation, or 3) DVD MPEG2 compression related. Or some combo of the three. The way to eliminate some of the above is to get a HD-DVD player, pop in a HD-DVD and look for dark scenes. HD-DVD darks scenes have no MPEG issues whatsoever, at least in the 8-10 discs I've seen. Any issue is then calibration or dislpay related (or unlikely, player).

Also, it's possible the only improvements you see (besides no more Faroujda MB) is with test patterns or known torture disc scenes.

larry

bri1270

08-10-06, 03:03 PM

I would imagine that SO would not put out a chip that won't pass it's own "torture test" benchmark disc.

PooperScooper

08-10-06, 03:11 PM

I would imagine that SO would not put out a chip that won't pass it's own "torture test" benchmark disc.No doubt! :) I was also referring to DVDs that have encodings that aggravate deinterlacer deficiencies.

larry

b.greenway

08-10-06, 03:39 PM

I would imagine that SO would not put out a chip that won't pass it's own "torture test" benchmark disc.

I scored the 2930CI at 130/130 with the HQV disc. Although I do have to admit I was a bit hesitant as to whether the strings on the bass guitar were coiled or not in next to last test, although someone else viewing with me was leaning toward a pass on this test and ultimately convinced me it was consistent with a pass.

This is an impressive piece of gear and I have to say my results were quite different than what Hans found. My biggest compliment to the 2930CI was that I just kicked back and enjoyed about 20 mins of Raiders of the Lost Ark instead of giving my self a headache trying to find distortions and artifacts, any if at all present were imperceptible to my eyes.

HansR

08-10-06, 03:45 PM

More later on all the responses but quick one to Pooper Scooper on item 3.

As I understand it, ALL the micro and macro-blocking you see ultimately begins with the Disc (as you suggest). The more you compress, the more artifacts you are likely to end up with - hence (for those disks that begin with pristine originals), you invariably see more of this in disks with lower bit-rate outputs (like Lord of Rings 3) than higher output (like Spider 2, Superbit). The MPEG encoders, which are lossy, "push the envelope" more. One way they do this is increasingly less differentiation (or gradation) in large areas of "ALMOST" uniform color. Ultimately - this DOES look like blockiness. It is less evident to the eye in ligher colors (but still there), and it is much less evident the more bits the encoder allows to capture more gradation (and thus less areas of contiguous color).

You can see the same effect by overly compressing a static JPEG picture on your computer - you will generally start to see banding. It gets worse with MPEG because not every frame is even stored as a complete picture. About every 15 frames, you have a "COMPLETE" picture (similair to a JPEG - still compressed - but complete). Then the intermediate frames are primarily looking for motion differences. So those same large areas of color that are already getting some blocking will now, somewhat randomly, trigger a difference algorithm - hence the shimmering (as opposed to just static blocks).

Any additional processing you do has the potential to exacerbate the problem, depending on how your scaling and deinterlacing algorithms work. You can't make it better than it was (without filtering), but you can make it worse (like so many Faroudja implementations). Filtering - for THESE artifacts (as opposed to random noise which can be done pretty effectively), seems to inherently result in softening. Certainly does on the 2930.

So ultimately the fix is a LOT more data - HD/Blu-Ray, whatever. The few I've seen look great. Problem for all of us is that it will be years before the library catches up to the SD library. (I have nearly 800) myself.

In the SD era, great sources with great mastering and decent upscaling/de-interlacing produce a pretty darn good picture with little MB/mb. I'm now trying to solve that larger portion of SD DVD's that aren't so great....hence the buying, analysis. etc.

PooperScooper

08-10-06, 04:07 PM

I agree. SD DVDs have to be tolerated. There's only so much you can get into 720x480 YCbCr 4:2:0 interlaced. Also, with digital displays, things get much better with 10bit output from deinterlacer/scaler in player and 10bit or higher color support in the display. This helps alot with banding and possibly some "blockiness". And all digital displays are currently a compromise compared to top notch CRT PJs. That being said, there are DVDs that look great. Just don't look real close. :)

larry

DavidHir

08-10-06, 04:29 PM

I scored the 2930CI at 130/130 with the HQV disc. Although I do have to admit I was a bit hesitant as to whether the strings on the bass guitar were coiled or not in next to last test, although someone else viewing with me was leaning toward a pass on this test and ultimately convinced me it was consistent with a pass.

This is an impressive piece of gear and I have to say my results were quite different than what Hans found. My biggest compliment to the 2930CI was that I just kicked back and enjoyed about 20 mins of Raiders of the Lost Ark instead of giving my self a headache trying to find distortions and artifacts, any if at all present were imperceptible to my eyes.

On a more subjective level, how does the 2930 compare to your other player(s)? I'm asking more in terms of detail, sharpness, colors, etc..

b.greenway

08-10-06, 05:30 PM

On a more subjective level, how does the 2930 compare to your other player(s)? I'm asking more in terms of detail, sharpness, colors, etc..

Which will undoubtedly illustrate the disconnect of my observations versus Hans findings. The last player I viewed DVD on at any length was a Denon DVD-1910, followed by my current Toshiba HD-XA1, I just don’t watch enough SD DVD to warrant another player in the equipment rack, or at least that’s what I thought until I spent the day with the 2930CI. If the possibility presents itself in a way that I can stomach (i.e being able to justify yet another DVD player) I’ll probably purchase one.

As far as color accuracy, I think it was spot on; of course most anyone else in the standard def DVD forum likely watches much more DVD than I do and may have different opinions. I noticed no real DVD artifacting that couldn’t be attributed to the source its self. i.e excellent transfers continued to look excellent, mediocre transfers with artifacting and minor image noise improved and poor transfers while improved probably weren’t improved enough to make me watch them.

As for an example as to macroblocking, there is a scene in Kill Bill 1 where the Bride and Vernita are chatting in the kitchen, with previous DVD players I could always detect a bit of macroblocking in the yellow wall between them, this was not present on the 2930CI.

HansR

08-10-06, 06:17 PM

Which will undoubtedly illustrate the disconnect of my observations versus Hans findings. The last player I viewed DVD on at any length was a Denon DVD-1910, followed by my current Toshiba HD-XA1, I just don’t watch enough SD DVD to warrant another player in the equipment rack, or at least that’s what I thought until I spent the day with the 2930CI. If the possibility presents itself in a way that I can stomach (i.e being able to justify yet another DVD player) I’ll probably purchase one.

As far as color accuracy, I think it was spot on; of course most anyone else in the standard def DVD forum likely watches much more DVD than I do and may have different opinions. I noticed no real DVD artifacting that couldn’t be attributed to the source its self. i.e excellent transfers continued to look excellent, mediocre transfers with artifacting and minor image noise improved and poor transfers while improved probably weren’t improved enough to make me watch them.

As for an example as to macroblocking, there is a scene in Kill Bill 1 where the Bride and Vernita are chatting in the kitchen, with previous DVD players I could always detect a bit of macroblocking in the yellow wall between them, this was not present on the 2930CI.

To b.greenway's comments: I think what you are used to and comparing to is key. Honestly, when I first got the 2910, it blew away what I thought SD could do. Main gripe was the occasional Macrblocking. Problem is, now I am comparing the 2930 to the 2910. I not only expect no step backwards, but - at $850 list - a step forward in video quality.

If I had never seen the 2910 (or anything comparable or better), I'm sure that (while I might be wondering if there is a way to improve sharpness or reduce the mB effect) I would have been very pleased, not disappointed.

bri1270

08-10-06, 06:21 PM

[QUOTE]No doubt! I was also referring to DVDs that have encodings that aggravate deinterlacer deficiencies.[QUOTE]

Larry - My remark wasn't directed at yours intentionally, I was just pointing out something that I hadn't realized until I read your comment.

Well - it's gotten interesting already...a few reviews and each one a little different...dammit, this means I am going to have to get one and see for myself!!!

HansR

08-10-06, 06:38 PM

In response to some comments and questions:

Q: Have you tried the 2930 at 480p to the display? This might help to clarify if the 'microblocking' you speak of is being introduced by the scaling of the Reon

A: No. Don't think the Reon actually does the scaling - I think it deinterlaces, has optional "ehnancement" (sharpening, I believe), and some noise reduction options (MPEG and random - random, btw, is decent). But the point is to isolate where this here-for-to unseen micro-blocking is coming from (assuming it is not purely source material artifacts that were masked). Not a bad idea. I might trying disabling everything and simply feeding 480i through the HDMI (start out with the REON not deinterlacing either).

Q: do you have a 3rd DVD player (non faroudja) that you could compare?

A: Yes and no. My 3rd is a Panasonic S97 which is used on a smaller, less critical display. It uses a faroudja implementation but with different firmware. It has plenty of other issues (compared to a mid/high end player - it's "kick butt" for under $300) but actually VERY little MB. I do not recall any of the shimmering - but haven't hooked it into this bigger display to compare. Will do that.

C: I would imagine that SO would not put out a chip that won't pass it's own "torture test" benchmark disc.

R: I'm sure you are right. My bet is that all the algorithms they did port and hard-code are, largely, identical. It is probably more the combined implementation of all the pieces. Having said that, the idea was, in part, to drive cost out of this chip. I suspect it runs at a much slower clock speed - and, as such, some operations - in their performance optimized complexity - may simply not have been feasible on this chip without changes. I work at a very large electronics manufacturer and it can easily take a 6-18 months after production starts to ring out all the bugs AND optimize performance. We see that all the time.

Lastly - coming back to this issue of what you were used to....I suspect when I got the 2910, I was looking at it with far less critical eyes. Getting the 2930, expectations were very high and I began more critically. The A/B between the two will be really key (especially now that my expectations are recalibrated).

b.greenway

08-10-06, 06:43 PM

To b.greenway's comments: I think what you are used to and comparing to is key. Honestly, when I first got the 2910, it blew away what I thought SD could do. Main gripe was the occasional Macrblocking. Problem is, now I am comparing the 2930 to the 2910. I not only expect no step backwards, but - at $850 list - a step forward in video quality.

If I had never seen the 2910 (or anything comparable or better), I'm sure that (while I might be wondering if there is a way to improve sharpness or reduce the mB effect) I would have been very pleased, not disappointed.

Oddly enough however, my review was completed at a dealer/friend who was closed for the day so I had ample time to try out lots of different players for comparison. He had the 2910, 1730, and of course the 2930CI. (and a Vantage Calibre but that’s another story) And I of course brought along my XA1, which coincidently isn’t the end all of up-conversion as many would seem to indicate.

I found the 2930 quickly rendered the 2910 irrelevant; I’m starting to wonder if the displays used aren’t to blame here. I understand that you use a 1080p display, are you taking the resolution all the way up to 1080p? I wont argue that sending the display its native resolution isn’t ideal but maybe the fact that I was using 720p minimized (or eliminated) some of these differences.

DavidHir

08-10-06, 06:45 PM

Which will undoubtedly illustrate the disconnect of my observations versus Hans findings. The last player I viewed DVD on at any length was a Denon DVD-1910, followed by my current Toshiba HD-XA1, I just don’t watch enough SD DVD to warrant another player in the equipment rack, or at least that’s what I thought until I spent the day with the 2930CI. If the possibility presents itself in a way that I can stomach (i.e being able to justify yet another DVD player) I’ll probably purchase one.

As far as color accuracy, I think it was spot on; of course most anyone else in the standard def DVD forum likely watches much more DVD than I do and may have different opinions. I noticed no real DVD artifacting that couldn’t be attributed to the source its self. i.e excellent transfers continued to look excellent, mediocre transfers with artifacting and minor image noise improved and poor transfers while improved probably weren’t improved enough to make me watch them.

As for an example as to macroblocking, there is a scene in Kill Bill 1 where the Bride and Vernita are chatting in the kitchen, with previous DVD players I could always detect a bit of macroblocking in the yellow wall between them, this was not present on the 2930CI.

Thanks....how does the 2930 compare to the Toshiba for SD DVDs...in regards to film-based DVDs (Raiders a good example)?

b.greenway

08-10-06, 06:47 PM

Thanks....how does the 2930 compare to the Toshiba for SD DVDs...in regards to film-based DVDs (Raiders a good example)?

No contest in my opinion, the Toshiba was good, the 2930 was a good deal better. Motion, sharpness, and color saturation were all superior with the Denon.

DavidHir

08-10-06, 06:50 PM

No contest in my opinion, the Toshiba was good, the 2930 was a good deal better. Motion, sharpness, and color saturation were all superior with the Denon.

That's impressive as I thought the Toshiba was quite good.

One more question: Are there any issues with YC delay, black or white clipping issues, video levels, excessive pixel cropping. Have you had a chance to test these core items?

HansR

08-10-06, 06:53 PM

I found the 2930 quickly rendered the 2910 irrelevant; I’m starting to wonder if the displays used aren’t to blame here. I understand that you use a 1080p display, are you taking the resolution all the way up to 1080p? I wont argue that sending the display its native resolution isn’t ideal but maybe the fact that I was using 720p minimized (or eliminated) some of these differences.

You hit on a key point here. I am feeding the display it's native input to (in theory) completely remove the display from the scaling/deinterlacing equation, let alone from serial scaling processes which would also be suboptimal in theory. (I could feed it 480p to only scale once, but then I am depending on inferior scaling in the set)

I have definitely found when I feed a lower rez image (720p, for example, from the 2910) I get less Macroblocking. Didn't even try this on the 2930 because, to my previous comment, I did notice a loss of sharpness. The display simply doesn't have as good quality a scaler (nor do most) as a stand alone or as in the 2910.

HansR

08-10-06, 06:55 PM

No contest in my opinion, the Toshiba was good, the 2930 was a good deal better. Motion, sharpness, and color saturation were all superior with the Denon.

I agree on that. All the critical reviews I have read indicate that neither the Toshiba nor the Sony/Samsung Blu-rays do nearly as good a job in upscaling SD. I didn't compare Toshiba, but the dealer I got my machine from had a $1,000 Samsung Blu-Ray, and it was also no contest - even compared to the 2910.

b.greenway

08-10-06, 06:59 PM

That's impressive as I thought the Toshiba was quite good.

One more question: Are there any issues with YC delay, black or white clipping issues, video levels, excessive pixel cropping. Have you had a chance to test these core items?

The Toshibas’ are good, but relatively speaking I found the 2930 better. I noticed no B/W clipping during calibration or pixel cropping (that is if you consider DVE an accurate measure of this)

As to YC delay I noticed no visible smearing, while not specifically tested for I saw no evidence to lead me to believe it was present.

Sam S

08-10-06, 11:31 PM

Steviec, can you comment on the sound via analog outs of the 2930 vs. 3910/5910?

DavidHir

08-10-06, 11:37 PM

steviec,

I'm using the Oppo 970 right now as you know...usually at 1080i HDMI (sometimes I use 480p component too). In what ways is 2930 image superior with film-based material?

OCDMedic

08-11-06, 02:33 AM

I talked to a Tweeter dealer yesterday and he said they will start selling the 3930 on Aug. 22.

Mark Paquette

08-11-06, 09:30 AM

Well this is getting interesting. I'm going to order a 2930 from my local dealer this afternoon. Hopefully it doesn't take too long to arrive.

BillP

08-11-06, 09:45 AM

The 2930 is the best player on the market and I am going to keep it in my setup.
Just wait for the 3930!

BillP

08-11-06, 09:46 AM

Steviec, can you comment on the sound via analog outs of the 2930 vs. 3910/5910?
The 2930 uses the same audio DACs as the 2200 and 2910. They are simply not as good as the audio DACs in the 2900 or the 3910 or the 5910, although you need a good audio system to appreciate the differences (and of course, be using the analog outs).

s2silber

08-11-06, 09:49 AM

I talked to a Tweeter dealer yesterday and he said they will start selling the 3930 on Aug. 22.
And I talked to Denon's director of product development at U.S. headquarters yesterday and he said the '3930 has been delayed and won't be available until September. Go figure.

Sam S

08-11-06, 10:10 AM

The 2930 uses the same audio DACs as the 2200 and 2910. They are simply not as good as the audio DACs in the 2900 or the 3910 or the 5910, although you need a good audio system to appreciate the differences (and of course, be using the analog outs).

True, but DACs only tell part of the story. Power supplies, caps and design can have an even greater impact IMO.

BillP

08-11-06, 01:04 PM

True, but DACs only tell part of the story. Power supplies, caps and design can have an even greater impact IMO.
True, but the 3930 will be better than the 2930 for all of that (the 3910 was considerably better than the 2910 for power supply/build quality/etc).

s2silber

08-11-06, 01:23 PM

True, but DACs only tell part of the story. Power supplies, caps and design can have an even greater impact IMO.
What are caps -- capacitors? And, if so, how do they affect performance?

shane55

08-11-06, 01:46 PM

True, but the 3930 will be better than the 2930 for all of that (the 3910 was considerably better than the 2910 for power supply/build quality/etc).
Oh sure... all that... but there's a thread in the Speakers section that is debating how much difference speaker cables can make. :rolleyes:

DAC’s and build components will have a difference on the sound, but how much, and will it be noticed by the listener? Will the listener’s system actually be able to transfer that difference into noticeable sound? And… regardless of how fine the system is, it can all go for naught simply by having lousy room acoustics.

Not arguing… just stating the obvious. I'm getting the 2930. It has the same DAC's as my Denon receiver, which is just fine for me and my system. I'll also use the D-link. So my audio side has no issues of real import.

That said... the video side is another story. Will the difference on my 50" Panny be noticable? Hmm... :confused:

shane

Sam S

08-11-06, 01:48 PM

What are caps -- capacitors? And, if so, how do they affect performance?

Yep, you're right on. Capacitors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitors) vary in size and design and are critical to good sound as the audio signal must pass through them at some point.

I'm sure some of our more technical members can disect good from bad and how their implementation has a bearing on the sound you eventually get from the analog outputs.

DACs are overrated when it comes to end result audio performance IMO. Sure, it's important to turn zeros and ones into an analog form, but it's what you do that that analog signal after it comes from the DAC that has a substantial impact on overall sound.

DavidHir

08-11-06, 01:56 PM

I would think the PQ difference between the 2930 and 3930 would be evident on a well calibrated 50" display. It's always the question of "how much" better and whether it's worth the extra money if that's all one is concerned about (like me). It's always a personal call.

I'm trying to get a local retailer to let me demo the 2930 overnight. One place told me on the phone a few minutes ago than the product is too new to do so right now. But, I'm going up there after work tonight and trying to talk them into it. :) I'm in the position of "how much" better will this be than my Oppo 970.

Terkalas

08-11-06, 02:22 PM

I am really curious to see the video quality differences between the 2930 and the 3910. Once the 3930 comes out, the deals will really start to fly on the 3910...

What do you guys think?

DavidHir

08-11-06, 02:34 PM

I am really curious to see the video quality differences between the 2930 and the 3910. Once the 3930 comes out, the deals will really start to fly on the 3910...

What do you guys think?

I would think so. Did this happen to the 2900 when the 3910 came out? It makes little sense to me to sell the 3910 the same price as the 3930.

Terkalas

08-11-06, 02:44 PM

I remember when the 3910 came out the 2900 was reduced by 30% from Authorized dealers.

Sorry to drop off topic guys..........

BillP

08-11-06, 03:05 PM

Oh sure... all that... but there's a thread in the Speakers section that is debating how much difference speaker cables can make. :rolleyes:

DAC’s and build components will have a difference on the sound, but how much, and will it be noticed by the listener? Will the listener’s system actually be able to transfer that difference into noticeable sound? And… regardless of how fine the system is, it can all go for naught simply by having lousy room acoustics.
We're actually in agreement. There are many, many factors that influence audio. But if you're looking for top audio performance, I assume you start with high end speaker wires and a high end audio system (speakers/receiver/preamp/etc) to begin with. (If you have crappy speakers, then none of this discussion is meaningful since you won't be able to hear any difference between most players.) IMO, the weakest link in your system will determine audio performance more than anything else, and that is why the audio DACs are important - they determine the best your player can sound, using the analog outputs, and are therefore an important limiting factor to audio performance - no matter how good the rest of your system is, a player with inferior DACs will never match a player with better DACs, assuming the same speakers/speaker wire/etc. Thus, if you take the same audio system and merely compare the 3910 and 2910, you should be able to hear a difference between these 2 players, assuming you have a good enough system to be able to hear that difference.

shane55

08-11-06, 03:27 PM

We're actually in agreement. There are many, many factors that influence audio. But if you're looking for top audio performance, I assume you start with high end speaker wires and a high end audio system (speakers/receiver/preamp/etc) to begin with. (If you have crappy speakers, then none of this discussion is meaningful since you won't be able to hear any difference between most players.) IMO, the weakest link in your system will determine audio performance more than anything else, and that is why the audio DACs are important - they determine the best your player can sound, using the analog outputs, and are therefore an important limiting factor to audio performance - no matter how good the rest of your system is, a player with inferior DACs will never match a player with better DACs, assuming the same speakers/speaker wire/etc. Thus, if you take the same audio system and merely compare the 3910 and 2910, you should be able to hear a difference between these 2 players, assuming you have a good enough system to be able to hear that difference.
Yeah Bill... I know we're saying the same thing, and I really like your phrase "...the weakest link in your system will determine audio performance more than anything else..." ;)

My point is that the BB-DAC's in my receiver are 'good enough' for my system, room, ears, NEEDS, etc, and they are the same as in the 2930. It's the video differences between the two units that may actually be more important or critical or noticeable to me.

But life is compromise (especially marriage)... so this is actually an interim unit. It is something that will last me through the HD-DVD war. Once that's ironed out, the vid. processing (for SD-DVD’s) in second or third generation HD units may kick the 3930's butt anyway, so the only reason to keep either unit will be it's audio - SACD, DVD-A ability.

But my guess is that the video processing of the 2930 will be ‘good enough’ for me as well. Compromise. :o

shane

BillP

08-11-06, 05:12 PM

Yes, it always comes down to compromise and diminishing returns as you go up the price chain. The 3910 has consistently been reported as having slightly better PQ with a greater improvement for audio. Since the 3930 is not yet available, it's impossible to know how the 3930 will stack up against the 2930 (will the difference in price be worth it?). I agree with you that the 2930 sounds like a great player, and is certainly "good enough" for most people. Some obviously already bought the 5910 (for $3500!!), and for that market, I have a feeling they will want the 3930. I am happy sticking with my 3910 until I get into the high def arena. My wish list is for a Denon universal player for BD + HD-DVD + SACD.

shane55

08-11-06, 06:09 PM

My wish list is for a Denon universal player for BD + HD-DVD + SACD.
Ok... me too, but either before I plunk down the cash for the 2930 (not likely), or loooong after (more likely... if at all)! :D ;)

shane

pbmpharmacist

08-11-06, 10:14 PM

I ordered a 2930 tonight from my local Tweeter affiliate. Should be in stock next Friday. My Marantz DV7600 is going to be donated to good will.

kucharsk

08-11-06, 10:29 PM

Personally I'm going to be more interested to see how the 3930 stacks up against the 5910CI.

If I can get the performance of the 5910CI for the price of the 3930, why not? :D

kucharsk

08-11-06, 10:38 PM

The Rang

08-11-06, 11:16 PM

I talked to the local Denon rep today.
Yes, he is a rep and thus his comments will undoubtedly be positive however I have known this guy for a number of years and he's a straight shooter.

He was at a training seminar recently where they set up the 3930 side by side with the Toshiba HD-DVD player. Same plasma displays, same HDMI cable, both sets calibrated.
They played an SD movie on the 3930 and its HD variant on the Toshiba. (I neglected to ask which movie).
He was amazed at how close the two pictures were: HD vs SD.
The blacks were better and colors more vivid on HD but only slightly. Detail excellent, about the same on both.
He figured the Tosh wasn't even close during the SD vs. SD comparison.

Now I suppose we could discuss the mastering quality on the discs but I thought the comparison was interesting nonetheless.

Just one man's opinion but this guy knows his stuff and what to look for.

FWIW

bri1270

08-12-06, 06:25 AM

Did you happen to talk about the 2930CI and his impressions of that player?

Mark Paquette

08-12-06, 07:38 AM

Did you happen to talk about the 2930CI and his impressions of that player?

I'm curious as well.

DavidHir

08-12-06, 11:31 AM

I'm sorry, as nice as these players surely are and I'm actually interested in them, there is no way they are going to come close to high quality HD DVD on a decent sized display. I mean even Denon 5910 owners have admitted there is no comparison between the two really. The bottom line is you have 480i software vs 1080p software. The exception where the difference may not be large is on poor, older masters which aren't cleaned up properly, or maybe when the transfers weren't done correctly (bobbed).

The Rang

08-12-06, 01:02 PM

Did you happen to talk about the 2930CI and his impressions of that player?

Yes I did but the 2930 was not hooked up to anything at the demo session.

He was told the Reon does "about 85%" of what the Realta can do.
Personally I think that comment is way too vague to be useful.

Wasn't sure on pricing but figured the 2930 would be 1K CDN, same as the 2910.
Had a feeling the 3930 retail would be lower than the 3910, but not by much.
The latter is delayed (in Canada anyway) until first week of Sept.

The Rang

08-12-06, 01:09 PM

The bottom line is you have 480i software vs 1080p software. The exception where the difference may not be large is on poor, older masters which aren't cleaned up properly, or maybe when the transfers weren't done correctly (bobbed).

I agree and that's why I brought up the mastering variable in my post.

the 3930 vs Toshiba comparison done for Denon reps sounds good in theory but the mastering quality and software resolution would differ between the discs used.

Still, because I know this guy, his opinions on the test hold weight with me. I'm encouraged and anxiously await an "in the flesh" look.

I hope the local retailer is brave enough to hook up a similar side by side comp.

DavidHir

08-12-06, 03:59 PM

Those of you who have the 2930, have you checked its 480p component performance out? If so, how is it and how does it compare to some of the other more recent higher end Denons (2900, 3910, etc.)?

steviec

08-12-06, 04:09 PM

HansR

08-12-06, 04:15 PM

After reading Hansrs comments i'm outta here.
…. .Don't believe it. It is all b.s..
As for whats his name pushing the 2910 he's full of it to state it nicely.
!

I said it was a “first hands-on impression.” My set, while calibrated, had not been calibrated for the new deck. And I certainly don’t claim to be an expert – just enjoy a good viewing experience. At the risk of incurring more wrath, thought I would post an update. (Steviec and Mr. Greenway were basically right – most of the initial problems came down to setup.)

Had the set professionally calibrated (not by me) on the input for the 2930. For my initial review, I had simply left the previous settings (and only the user accessible ones at that) as they were for the 2910 and adjusted the 2930 settings to match those of the 2910 (and left the new ones – not on the 2910 – on factory default). While I know this is no guarantee of the same setup, without calibration material and for an anxious first look – it’s what I did.

Turns out the output level (both at 0 and +7.5 IRE) is quite different between the two decks. Furthermore, the 2930 appears to have a much better ability to resolve dark colors – especially “blacker than black.” When the calibrator had a pluge pattern on the screen, darker than dark could be made to stand out significantly on the 2930 whereas it was a struggle on the 2910 (at 0 IRE – which is where he recommend the 2910 be set and where it had been). This, coupled with the fact that my quick initial set up obviously left the black levels way too high (the blacker than black bar was very visible with the initial settings) ends up explaining the “new artifacts” I was seeing.

Turns out that many of the scenes where I saw this new “micro-blocking” contain some “blacker than black” material with some mpeg compression artifacts in the original source. The 2910, at almost any brightness (at 0 IRE) was simply unable to resolve them where the 2930 easily could. Further, once the black levels on the 2930 were properly set, those artifacts basically disappeared to below visible levels.

My other concern was a perceived matting and loss of clarity and detail in some scenes (relative to the 2910). Digging into the Picture Adjustment settings, one of the “new” settings (not on the 2910) lableled “Enhancer” was turned “on” (set to 4, on a scale of 0-11). I think this is an HQV function. Anyway, the manual says the default is “0.” Turning this off made a big difference to my untrained eyes. I think this is the equivalent of a sharpening function and it was just adding a bunch of noise, ringing, etc, that made highly detailed scenes (esp. in less than perfect masters) look pretty bad. I’m sure there are ways to use these new HQV derived settings to great benefit – but I have no idea what they are. Would love any advice from someone who does know.

NOW, with the display properly calibrated on BOTH HDMI inputs for both decks, and with a true A/B setup, I was really able to compare.

I walked away concluding (to my untrained, 45 year old eyes), that – at least to ME (and on my display) – the picture quality was basically identical between the two decks, clip after clip, with the one important exception of a reduction in macro-blocking on these few scenes were it occurred.

The difference in “fluidity” of motion in a 1080p feed vs. the 2910’s 1080i was definitely there, but not nearly as much as my first impression (I think, ultimately, on most consumer setups, you are stuck with some judder when doing frame rate adaptation from 24 fps film sources. For whatever reason, when I drop to 720p feed, this gets much better. I suspect this has something to do with frame rate ability and conversion of my display at different inputs – but I cannot find any information on frame rates for the Denons or my display).

I’m sure other more trained eyes might see a huge difference between the decks – I don’t. That is, in part, a nod to what a superb deck the last 2910’s had become.

In the end, I will probably keep the new machine because 1 – no MB; 2 – the usability enhancements (auto Squeeze is pretty nice when you get used to it) and 3 – POTENTIAL. The 2910 firmware is probably at the end of the road whereas the 2930 is just starting. Between new firmware tweaks and learning to use the HQV settings, there has got to be the potential to improve the picture quality some.

HansR

08-12-06, 04:17 PM

Out of feeling obligated to you guys i thought I should update my take on the 2930 after I really got a chance to run it thru its paces.
Please forgive previous posts as I have now done an about face on the player, in fact I just sent it back for a refund.
.
So much for the new HQV Reon chip.

I don't have anything but a 2910 to do A/B comparison. I believe you had a 5910? Nowhere close to it?

Sid Viscous

08-12-06, 05:01 PM

Out of feeling obligated to you guys i thought I should update my take on the 2930 after I really got a chance to run it thru its paces.
Please forgive previous posts as I have now done an about face on the player, in fact I just sent it back for a refund.

What I found is that compared to the Oppo 970 the Denon 2930 is a lot softer picture with the interlacing performance about the same .

Running the 970 thru the VP30 processor using 480i hdmi is the best way to go,
The 2930 displays all kinds of artifacts on the abt 102 test dvd ,in fact it will not lock on very well to many of the different cadences and the will not full resolve the wedge patterns and hold sync on them using 480i hdmi input like the Oppo 970 does.

This was enough for me and i sent the 2930 back.
So much for the new HQV Reon chip.

What? An $850 dollar DVD player doesn't look as good as a $2000 scaler/processor? :confused:

BTW, if by softer you mean being able to see things in backgrounds that most players let get filted, I'm with you. All that new detail gives me a headache. How about giving me an opinion on the 2910 or Toshiba HD players (W/SD) so I can understand what you saw.

HansR

08-12-06, 06:31 PM

Should clarify something:

There is one item on which the 2930 seemed to lag the 2910 - deinterlacing some diaganols. I had read this in reviews of the 5910 but saw it for myself in test patterns when it was begin calibrated and some clips. If you look at the beginning of Star Wars III - the W and A, as they recede, are very smooth with the 2910 and most Faroudja based deinterlacers. On the 2930, you do see (relatively speaking) some stair stepping.

Having said that, it did not (to me) have a measurable impact in most viewing material - that's after doing A/B on about 2 dozen clips.

I'll emphasize again - I am strictly comparing a 2910 (which I own) to the 2930 (thinking about keeping). Don't have an Oppo, a 5910 or $2K DVDO scaler/processor to compare to.

steviec

08-12-06, 07:25 PM

The Oppo 970/ VP30 combo also beats the 5910! incredible!

HansR

08-12-06, 09:37 PM

The Oppo 970/ VP30 combo also beats the 5910! incredible!

How does the 2930 stack up to your 5910?

uzun

08-12-06, 10:03 PM

I have to lament, why oh why not HDMI 1.2! They would make very flexible and desireable SACD players in addition to their DVD prowess if they had only included HDMI 1.2 support!

steviec

08-12-06, 10:34 PM

How does the 2930 stack up to your 5910?

Based on my experience it really does not compare.
the 5910 is an audio fanatics delight .
You won't find better SACD and DVD audio unless you are willing to spend alot more.
The Terenex processing out does the 2930 a bit but not by much.

So my recommendations are;
1.Oppo 970 at 480i hdmi into a DVDO VP30( with the new abt102 board)
2. Denon 5910
3.Oppo 971h
4.Everything else.( that includes the toshiba HD-xa1 with its sloooow boot up time and audio that is inferior to standard 7.1.)
(And the Samsung BD-p1000 with its chroma issues and the simple fact that bluray is using mpeg 2 encoding.)
I dumped both HD formats for standard dvd and I am much happier!

DavidHir

08-13-06, 02:41 AM

steviec,

How would you rate the component 480p performance out of the players you mentioned?

HansR

08-13-06, 09:52 AM

Based on my experience it really does not compare.
the 5910 is an audio fanatics delight .
You won't find better SACD and DVD audio unless you are willing to spend alot more.
The Terenex processing out does the 2930 a bit but not by much.

So for video only, are you saying the 2930 doesn't lag the 5910 by too much?

steviec

08-13-06, 12:02 PM

steviec,

How would you rate the component 480p performance out of the players you mentioned?

On my setup I prefer:
1.Denon 5910
2.Denon 2930
3.Oppo 970
4.Oppo 971h

this is 480p thru component only.

steviec

08-13-06, 12:05 PM

So for video only, are you saying the 2930 doesn't lag the 5910 by too much?

I would say the 2930 lags about 15% behind the 5910

Sid Viscous

08-13-06, 12:09 PM

On my setup I prefer:
1.Denon 5910
2.Denon 2930
3.Oppo 971h
4.Oppo 970

this is 480p thru component only.

So, it takes a $3500 DVD player or a $2000 scaler/proc to beat the 2930? What a deal!

DavidHir

08-13-06, 12:10 PM

On my setup I prefer:
1.Denon 5910
2.Denon 2930
3.Oppo 971h
4.Oppo 970

this is 480p thru component only.

Are you sure about the 971 over the 970 for component? The 971 is known to be quite poor over component 480p.

Haroon Malik

08-13-06, 02:14 PM

I would say the 2930 lags about 15% behind the 5910

That would make the 3930 quite an interesting player if the lag of the 2930 is 15%.

The Rang

08-13-06, 02:55 PM

That would make the 3930 quite an interesting player if the lag of the 2930 is 15%.

The Denon guy I know mentioned the same figure (15%) when comparing the 2930 to the 3930, even though he hasn't seen the 2930 in action yet.

This must be the number Denon is claiming.

DJSloan

08-13-06, 03:29 PM

Does anyone who has 2930 have the capability and know how to evaluate the Chroma issues on this "new ESS" decoder used in the 2930 and 3930?

HansR

08-13-06, 03:33 PM

The Denon guy I know mentioned the same figure (15%) when comparing the 2930 to the 3930, even though he hasn't seen the 2930 in action yet.

This must be the number Denon is claiming.

Which implies (if these percentages, from Denon, are meaningful) that the 3930 would match the 5910 in PQ. That would make the 3930 one heck of a buy.

HansR

08-13-06, 03:35 PM

On my setup I prefer:
1.Denon 5910
2.Denon 2930
3.Oppo 971h
4.Oppo 970

this is 480p thru component only.

steviec - have you seen a 3910 or 2910 in action? Wondering how the 2930 might compare to either one of them?

Anyone else seen them in action? Again, to my relatively untrained eyes, after calibration - the PQ looks identical on 2910 vs. 2930 except for Macro-blocking. I would guess the 2930 would have to be better than the 2910....I'm just struggling to see it. Would love another more experienced opinion.

HansR

08-13-06, 03:36 PM

Does anyone who has 2930 have the capability and know how to evaluate the Chroma issues on this "new ESS" decoder used in the 2930 and 3930?

Nope. Which decoder are they using? I haven't seen any information on it.

PooperScooper

08-13-06, 04:53 PM

The DVDO disc that comes with the ABT102 has some test patterns for ICP, don't know about CUE. The one test I use is to look at one of the Snell and Wilcox test screens on DVE. One of them has a red triangle above a blue triangle left center of screen. These triangle should have straight edges on the sides. With ICP they'll have varying degree of jagginess. Look at it with 480i and then 480p to see if it exists and if so, does the deinterlacer filter it properly.

I would bet that the differences between some of the players discussed is going to come down to test patterns/cases. With proper calibration of the display and correct, unmolested, digital output from the player (just deinterlacing and maybe scaling) you'd be hard pressed to see differences just by looking at a DVD which is encoded properly.

larry

Sid Viscous

08-13-06, 05:29 PM

DaveyNJ

08-13-06, 05:29 PM

Hi,
I have a Denon 2910 DVD player and 4306 receiver. I was contemplating upgrading to the 3930 when it becomes available. One of the benefits that I was seeking to gain would be Denon Link. I thought I would be able to remove the analog cables and still take full advantage of the features.

If the DACS are important part of audio and you must use analog cables to get the benefit of the DACS (?) then what is the relevance of Denon Link?

Thanks in advance...

David

timf98

08-13-06, 06:04 PM

The 2930 displays all kinds of artifacts on the abt 102 test dvd ,in fact it will not lock on very well to many of the different cadences and the will not full resolve the wedge patterns and hold sync on them using 480i hdmi input like the Oppo 970 does.

If you're using 480i over HDMI then obviously you are not using the deinterlacing and scaling of the Reon, any artifacts you see are in the display's processing, except for maybe detail/sharpness.

steviec

08-13-06, 08:54 PM

Are you sure about the 971 over the 970 for component? The 971 is known to be quite poor over component 480p.

Sorry, you are correct .I it should be the 970 followed by the 971 for component.
I will edit the post.thanks

steviec

08-13-06, 09:02 PM

steviec - have you seen a 3910 or 2910 in action? Wondering how the 2930 might compare to either one of them?

Anyone else seen them in action? Again, to my relatively untrained eyes, after calibration - the PQ looks identical on 2910 vs. 2930 except for Macro-blocking. I would guess the 2930 would have to be better than the 2910....I'm just struggling to see it. Would love another more experienced opinion.

I have not even bothered with the 2910 since i heard way ahead of time how inferior the audio was to the 3910.
I have owned a 3910 but i had jvb do an sdi mod on it and i used to use it with a Iscan HD+.
The problem with some of these players was the macroblocking generated by faroudja chip and you never knew if you would have a display that would magnify the problem.Thats why i went sdi on the 3910 to bypass the chip, since it did not look good at time on my hitachi rptv.

steviec

08-13-06, 09:11 PM

If you're using 480i over HDMI then obviously you are not using the deinterlacing and scaling of the Reon, any artifacts you see are in the display's processing, except for maybe detail/sharpness.

I tried most everything;
As I stated earlier using the Reon the player passed all the deinterlacing tests on the HQV dvd which is great, but when it came to all the many other different cadences on the abt102 test dvd it failed big time.

Running the 2930 just 480i hdmi into the vp30 also failed bigtime and using the 970 passes every test!
This tells me the decoder in the player is not as good as the mediatek one in the oppo 970.

the 2930 is a great player and the audio form dvd sounds awesome.
I guess it is still a great player if it passes the hqv tests as most players dont and you may not need to have a setup that is perfect on every cadence.

BillP

08-13-06, 09:16 PM

Which implies (if these percentages, from Denon, are meaningful) that the 3930 would match the 5910 in PQ. That would make the 3930 one heck of a buy.
The 3930 and 5910 have the same chip. They should be very, very close.

viclaw

08-13-06, 10:20 PM

In the end, I will probably keep the new machine because 1 – no MB;

HansR,

Thank you for your comments and observations as they are very informative.

I am also looking for a solution to the MB I see on my Samsung 4051 LCD sourced by an old Sony DVP S9000ES. Based on the PQ from most of my DVDs I would not be looking for a replacement player. However, Zathura (chapter 15) and a few of my other disks are very bad. Having run Zathura on various players at dealers (including the 2910), I am forming the conclusion that MB is primarily a disk authoring problem.

My questions are is what display do you own and what are your observations with Zathura or other problematic MB DVDs?

Andyisc00l

08-14-06, 12:23 AM

I'm sorry if this has already been discused a, million times, but how big of a difference is there between the new Denon DVD-1930CI and the Denon DVD-2930CI..one costs a little over $850 and the other is $350, and I know the general rule is you pay for what you get, but when playing music and watching alot of movies, will I notice a big difference between the two? Also movies will be watched on a sony kde sxrd

bri1270

08-14-06, 05:55 AM

The 1930CI is using the Faroudja chip and the 2930CI is using the new SO Reon chip. I would suspect that the 1930CI is probably on par with the 2910.

kucharsk

08-14-06, 05:55 AM

The 3930 and 5910 have the same chip. They should be very, very close.Well, we still don't know about two big variables - the transport and the audio quality.

For better or worse, Denon has had a reasonably poor track record in being able to read damaged discs that even $49 supermarket DVD players have no problem reading due to transport/firmware issues. It will be interesting to see how the 3930 compares to other similarly priced players like the Pioneer DV-79AVi.

steviec

08-14-06, 06:33 AM

Well, we still don't know about two big variables - the transport and the audio quality.

For better or worse, Denon has had a reasonably poor track record in being able to read damaged discs that even $49 supermarket DVD players have no problem reading due to transport/firmware issues. It will be interesting to see how the 3930 compares to other similarly priced players like the Pioneer DV-79AVi.

Lets hope the 3930 is better than the pio 79,the 79 has many problems.just check the benchmark ratings as it performs worse than the older 59 as far as picture quality goes,
I want to see how the 3930 compares to the 5910 since it has the same chip,1080p etc.

HansR

08-14-06, 10:01 AM

The 3930 and 5910 have the same chip. They should be very, very close.

Makes sense. But then you wonder how Denon will justify $2k more for the 5910 or $2300 for the 5910CI. I doubt that 3910 will used the DVDO scaler..but other than that??? Maybe the difference is on the audio side - I haven't paid much attention to that.

HansR

08-14-06, 10:09 AM

HansR,

Thank you for your comments and observations as they are very informative.

I am also looking for a solution to the MB I see on my Samsung 4051 LCD sourced by an old Sony DVP S9000ES. Based on the PQ from most of my DVDs I would not be looking for a replacement player. However, Zathura (chapter 15) and a few of my other disks are very bad. Having run Zathura on various players at dealers (including the 2910), I am forming the conclusion that MB is primarily a disk authoring problem.

My questions are is what display do you own and what are your observations with Zathura or other problematic MB DVDs?

This was discussed a few pages back in the thread. Basically, I think your observations are right (from what I understand). It is mostly an issue with disk mastering and especially the amount of compression. Then some players/displays just seem to magnify the problem more than others. A lot of the faroudja implementations seem to do that.

Like you, I haven't seen MB on a ton of disks, but when I do, it is really annoying and distracting. My problem disks (problem on the 2910) no longer show MB on the 2930. My display is a Mitsubishi RP DLP (65731).

c722

08-14-06, 11:23 AM

Running the 2930 just 480i hdmi into the vp30 also failed bigtime and using the 970 passes every test!

this is really odd, as 480i should have very close performance on the VP30. Unless the Denon is doing the unthinkable: 480i->480p->480i... Were you able to try the component output in 480i ?

Anthony A.

08-14-06, 12:21 PM

thats true, why wouldn't the denon 480i be the same as any other player? there must be something going on inside that does not allow it to send a complete, unfiltered 480i signal. can anyone confirm on this?

steviec

08-14-06, 07:50 PM

this is really odd, as 480i should have very close performance on the VP30. Unless the Denon is doing the unthinkable: 480i->480p->480i... Were you able to try the component output in 480i ?

No straight 480i hdmi into the vp30 and believe me i was surprised!
I thought for sure i would upgrade to the 2930 and dump the 970 but no way now.
I should add the sound from the coax /toslink 2930 is the best i have ever heard in my system but that alone does not make me want to keep the player.

Andyisc00l

08-14-06, 07:52 PM

The 1930CI is using the Faroudja chip and the 2930CI is using the new SO Reon chip. I would suspect that the 1930CI is probably on par with the 2910.

well the 1930ci and the 2930ci have a $500 difference, is the video gonna look that much butter? Like the difference between the faoudja and SO reon chip? I'm gonna be watching alot of movies on a nice tv..like hundreds lol...so where is the $500 going to? a 1930ci ratting of video/sound vs 2930ci out of 10, can anyone od that please? THANKS!

HansR

08-14-06, 09:18 PM

well the 1930ci and the 2930ci have a $500 difference, is the video gonna look that much butter? Like the difference between the faoudja and SO reon chip? I'm gonna be watching alot of movies on a nice tv..like hundreds lol...so where is the $500 going to? a 1930ci ratting of video/sound vs 2930ci out of 10, can anyone od that please? THANKS!

If you look at my earlier posts and analysis, the 2930 (to me, on my set, but calibrated professionally) the 2930 and 2910 looked, basically, identical across about 2 dozen clips, with the main difference being minimal to no macro-blocking on the 2910 (but the last 2910's weren't that bad). 2910 and 1930ci use the same fardoudja chipset....so....

There may be some differences in the scaler and a couple other technologies, but Dennon is genrally queit about those.

BillP

08-14-06, 09:42 PM

Well, we still don't know about two big variables - the transport and the audio quality.

For better or worse, Denon has had a reasonably poor track record in being able to read damaged discs that even $49 supermarket DVD players have no problem reading due to transport/firmware issues. It will be interesting to see how the 3930 compares to other similarly priced players like the Pioneer DV-79AVi.
I expect audio to be better on the 5910, but video to be the same (3930 vs 5910). I have never had a problem playing scratched Netflix DVDs on my 3910. I'd take the 3930 over the 79ai anytime.

viclaw

08-14-06, 09:52 PM

This was discussed a few pages back in the thread. Basically, I think your observations are right (from what I understand). It is mostly an issue with disk mastering and especially the amount of compression. Then some players/displays just seem to magnify the problem more than others. A lot of the faroudja implementations seem to do that.

Like you, I haven't seen MB on a ton of disks, but when I do, it is really annoying and distracting. My problem disks (problem on the 2910) no longer show MB on the 2930. My display is a Mitsubishi RP DLP (65731).

Thank you, this is very encouraging, I am off to find a 2930.

kucharsk

08-15-06, 07:53 AM

Anyone know yet whether the 3930 will have a screen saver?

I wish Denon would have a bit rate meter as well, but that's another argument…

Sid Viscous

08-15-06, 10:21 AM

If you look at my earlier posts and analysis, the 2930 (to me, on my set, but calibrated professionally) the 2930 and 2910 looked, basically, identical across about 2 dozen clips, with the main difference being minimal to no macro-blocking on the 2910 (but the last 2910's weren't that bad). 2910 and 1930ci use the same fardoudja chipset....so....

There may be some differences in the scaler and a couple other technologies, but Dennon is genrally queit about those.

On a small screen the 2910 and 2930 look similar. Get them on something big and those similarities disappear fast.

DavidHir

08-15-06, 10:24 AM

Sid, what do you consider a small screen and what size did you see the 2930 on?

Mark Paquette

08-15-06, 11:40 AM

I'll be using mine on a 65" CRT RPTV. Mine has been ordered so once I receive it I'll post my thoughts.

HansR

08-15-06, 12:09 PM

On a small screen the 2910 and 2930 look similar. Get them on something big and those similarities disappear fast.

No doubt, the bigger the screen, the more the differences come out. Mine is 65" and we sit about 2.25 that distance from the screen.

I also expect that there's much more potential in the new 2930 to tweak performance over the years. I have read good things about some HQV specfic functionality (in the 5910) like the Enhancer - but don't know how to enable them without degrading the picture. Again - should be upside potential there.

DavidHir

08-15-06, 12:36 PM

I'll be using mine on a 65" CRT RPTV. Mine has been ordered so once I receive it I'll post my thoughts.

Mark, what player are you using now?

Mark Paquette

08-15-06, 01:38 PM

Mark, what player are you using now?

A Panasonic RP82. I'm very satisfied with the picture quality, but it's perfomance with DVD-A leaves much to be desired. If the 2930 can produce a picture that is equal to the RP82 and have decent DVD-A & SACD quality, then I'll be stoked.

DavidHir

08-15-06, 01:56 PM

A Panasonic RP82. I'm very satisfied with the picture quality, but it's perfomance with DVD-A leaves much to be desired. If the 2930 can produce a picture that is equal to the RP82 and have decent DVD-A & SACD quality, then I'll be stoked.

After calibrating, I'd like to hear how you think the 2930 compares to the RP-82 for film-based DVDs. I too have a CRT RPTV and used to have the Xp-30 (almost clone to RP-82).

Mark Paquette

08-15-06, 02:02 PM

It looks like it's going to be another week or so before my 2930 arrives at the dealer. It sounds like the supply of these things isn't that deep yet.

Sid Viscous

08-15-06, 05:12 PM

Sid, what do you consider a small screen and what size did you see the 2930 on?

I've seen it on a number of screens from 42" to 123". Almost HD on 42 and 50 and awesome on a 123.

SledgeHammer

08-16-06, 12:19 AM

The 3930CI is now up on crutchfield:

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-TOLUQ7QgZsQ/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=54400&I=033DV3930C

Not much content yet.

bri1270

08-16-06, 06:09 AM

So the feature set differences I see off the top are:

Realta vs Reon

14/216 (3930) vs 12/216 video DAC's (2930)

BB PCM-1796(3930) vs BB PCM-1791(2930)

2 sets component RCA and BNC (3930) - one set component (2930)

and the 3930 has advanced AL24 processing while the 2930 isn't "advanced"

The 2930 is also an inch shorter and 1/2 inch shallower, and I would guess the 2930 wieghs less.

inol

08-16-06, 06:33 AM

And they say they have it in stock:

From their site:

Need one today?
The Denon DVD-3910S Silver
is in stock at $1499.99.

bri1270

08-16-06, 06:55 AM

That's the 3910 not the 3930ci...unfortunately.

inol

08-16-06, 08:06 AM

Oops, my mistake. Got a bit excited there....

bri1270

08-16-06, 09:41 AM

I did too for a second, mostly because I'm interested in reviews, I don't think I would drop that much coin on a player though. I am, however, expecting my 2930 any time now...hopefully today!

DavidHir

08-16-06, 09:45 AM

Just curious, is there any practical difference between 14 bit 216mhz (DACs) versus 12 bit 216 mhz?

bri1270

08-16-06, 09:47 AM

I would think the difference would be indistinguishable, but what do I know?!?!

Scott_R_K

08-16-06, 07:20 PM

"Just curious, is there any practical difference between 14 bit 216mhz (DACs) versus 12 bit 216 mhz?"

None whatsoever if you're using HDMI out :p

Scott............. :D

DavidHir

08-16-06, 08:20 PM

True. But, I meant component.

bri1270

08-17-06, 07:24 AM

okay - got the 2930 yesterday and ran through DVE. Power up is quick, load time is a little longer than I expected. Navigation is fast. Some interesting notes - I have a 480p plasma, but the HDMI Auto detect comes in at 720p. There is some pixel cropping off the top at all HDMI resolutions, of which 1080i is the worst and 480p is the best. I threw in Monsters Inc., and using the YPbPr 720p setting there was some pretty bad CUE and combing. This did not happen at other resolutions. It also did not happen with RGB 720p setting. The overall all picture with M.I. was as close to HD as I've seen on a DVD player. Very detailed, very much a 3D effect. I also watched some of LOTR FOTR, again a fantastic picture - very detailed, colors are phenomenal adding a nice punch to the image, bu not quite as 3D like as M.I. I also watched some of The Boondock Saints, because it's such a lowsy transfer. I wanted to see how the 2930 would handle bad material. It was the best I've seen it, but again, another step down from M.I. which was expected.

480p and 1080i, on my display, are incredible. I am disappointed in the pixel cropping on the top...all other sides seem okay. I'm not sure but does it matter for 2:35:1 films?

There are tons of adjustments, plenty of things to tweak and play with. I'm looking forward to the weekend when I can do some real movie watching. Maybe test the component outs. Then next week I get the Oppo 970 for some comparisons.

DavidHir

08-17-06, 09:31 AM

Is the 2930ci much of an improvement over the Sony 3100Es via the HDMI resolutions you stated?

zimmermatt

08-17-06, 09:34 AM

I'd also be curious to hear your impressions of the dvd-audio/sacd playback of the 2930ci. Sounds like you're more interested in the video, but if you have a chance some feedback on the audio side would be nice.

Thanks, Matt

bri1270

08-17-06, 10:16 AM

Is the 2930ci much of an improvement over the Sony 3100Es via the HDMI resolutions you stated?

I'd have to say yes. Without being to technical (because I can't be), the picture has much more "pop" to it, more of a 3D look, and far more detail in the darker scenes. If I had to attach a value to it, I'd say it's a $100 picture improvement over the 3100ES and a $150 mechanical improvement. So by list price it falls short by $100...good thing I didn't pay list price.

So far, the thing that pisses me off the most is the pixel cropping...why would there be pixel cropping? That seems like such a simple thing compared to all the others. Now, I could be wrong, I'm using DVE to determine it, but the top part of the letters on the first "picture details" test is clipped by about 2 or 3 pixels...the other sides are perfect, and this is after adjusting overscan.

I'd also be curious to hear your impressions of the dvd-audio/sacd playback of the 2930ci. Sounds like you're more interested in the video, but if you have a chance some feedback on the audio side would be nice.

Matt, I am in fact into this one for the video. I don't have any Hi-Rez music at all. Sorry.

Mark Paquette

08-17-06, 11:06 AM

Can anyone else comment on DVD-A / SACD performance on this device, especially through the analog connections.

Sid Viscous

08-17-06, 04:25 PM

bri1270

08-17-06, 07:37 PM

If you have a 480 display, you don't want to send more than 480p. You can move the image Most likely your display is making the mistake on the resolutions (it is telling the player that it is 720 for one thing), but I believe you can move the image with the 2930 to compensate.

Not true. All HD content looks excellent on my set, please don't start the HD vs ED argument. It's already been well established that ED sets are perfectly capable of displaying (very well I might add) a HD signal. Not one person that's seen my set thinks it's ED until I tell them. And like I said, I might be the one making the mistake, not the player or the set.
And also - Maybe the player is making the error in recognition, not the display. Maybe because the display is actually 852 x 480 and not 720 x 480 the player is going to the next logical resolution...I can't answer that, I don't know enough about the player yet, it's purely a guess.

I haven't tried moving the image with the 2930, but I did see that feature. I'll have to give that a shot, and see what it does.

pbmpharmacist

08-17-06, 08:12 PM

Kevin C Brown

08-17-06, 08:50 PM

If you have a 480 display, you don't want to send more than 480p.
Not true. All HD content looks excellent on my set, please don't start the HD vs ED argument.

I think what he's trying to say, is that it doesn't make any sense to upscale a 480p std def DVD picture to 720p, send it to an ED display as 720p, and then have the ED display downconvert to 480p. You should get the best picture if you simply leave it as 480p. Delivering a true HD picture to an ED display is another matter, as it sounds like you know. :)

On a sidenote, "Not one person that's seen my set thinks it's ED until I tell them." I currently have a Pio 59AVi hooked up to a Panny 37pwd8uk, Avia'ed, and I get the same input. No one knows it's not HD until I tell them. :) One reason why I'm holding off on HD from cable or satellite, or HD DVD and Blu-ray. ;) And one reason why I'm looking at the 3930 as a possible, "last, best" SD player.

bri1270

08-17-06, 09:28 PM

I think what he's trying to say, is that it doesn't make any sense to upscale a 480p std def DVD picture to 720p, send it to an ED display as 720p, and then have the ED display downconvert to 480p. You should get the best picture if you simply leave it as 480p. Delivering a true HD picture to an ED display is another matter, as it sounds like you know.

I thought about that after I posted my response. 1080i looks pretty damned good though, especially on the animated movies.

I have HD cable (my old set was a Toshiba 1080i RPTV) so I kept it. I hardly ever watch SD stuff anymore. I've thought about getting a better resolution set, but honestly, I'm just going to wait for the 1080p plasmas...or something new like SED...we'll see.

bri1270

08-17-06, 09:30 PM

Just hooked up my 2930. Question for owners... is it just me or is the setup menu strange. I couldn't get the player to let me in to some of the settings. It just skipped over them without letting me select them. Maybe I have enter setup without a disk in there?

You'll want to use the "Setup" button on the bottom portion of the remote when you either don't have a disc in the player or when the disc is stopped.

At least I think those are the adjustments you're referring to.

The Rang

08-17-06, 09:53 PM

The new players are finally listed on the Denon Canada site.

3930 @ $1750 list, same as 3910
2930 @ $1140 list, $90 more than the 2910

The 3930 is about $65 higher than the US after currency conversion. Not bad
The 2930 on the other hand is approx $185 higher. Rip off :(

pbmpharmacist

08-17-06, 10:19 PM

You'll want to use the "Setup" button on the bottom portion of the remote when you either don't have a disc in the player or when the disc is stopped.

At least I think those are the adjustments you're referring to.

Thanks but I still need a little assistance...
Ok, when a disk isn't in there I can get to all of the settings except for the Audio Settings. What do I have to do to get into the Audio settings? In case it makes a difference, I am using HDMI.

bri1270

08-18-06, 08:21 AM

What do I have to do to get into the Audio settings?

I won't be able to answer that until later, when I get a chance to play with it some more.

One thing I failed to mention si the build quality. It's definitely a solid little player. It's short, but very...dense, for lack of a better word.

DustinTaj

08-18-06, 08:27 AM

Tweeter has 40 of the 2930's in their main Chicago warehouse right now. I was going to get one, but I was told to wait for a sale that's coming on the 18th.

Hi all. Long time lurker on the board, first time poster. I finally got around to registerring.

Anyway, I've been following this thread for the last month or so and I'm ready to order the 2930. I'm very interested in this "sale" that bri1270 mentioned. anyone know anything about it?

I'm also very interested in someone's perception on the sound quality of the 2930. I know the 2910 reviewed quite well as far as SACD and DVD-A go, so I imagine the 2930 will be as good or better. But, what about redbook CD'S? That was the 2910's weak point (although weak is probably debatable). I'm wondering if the new AL24 sound processing will help this tremendously. Could someone comment on that?

Thanks!

bri1270

08-18-06, 09:16 AM

I'm very interested in this "sale" that bri1270 mentioned. anyone know anything about it?

I didn't say anything about a "sale," I said I got a good deal...actually I said I didn't pay list price. I never pay list price Other than list price, pricing discussions are not allowed in the forum.

bri1270

08-18-06, 09:18 AM

If I had to attach a value to it, I'd say it's a $100 picture improvement over the 3100ES and a $150 mechanical improvement. So by list price it falls short by $1

After looking at both the 3100ES and the 2930, and lifting tem and checking them both out a little more closely from a physical perspective, I would have to add another $50 - $75 of perceived value for build quality.

bucky63

08-18-06, 10:44 AM

I'm also very interested in someone's perception on the sound quality of the 2930. I know the 2910 reviewed quite well as far as SACD and DVD-A go, so I imagine the 2930 will be as good or better. But, what about redbook CD'S? That was the 2910's weak point (although weak is probably debatable). I'm wondering if the new AL24 sound processing will help this tremendously. Could someone comment on that?

I had the 2910 before upgrading to the 3910 and this is what I found...

The AL24 processing of the 3910 has a lot to do with the sound quality of red book CDs. I noticed it right away when I switched units.

It would be my guess that the sound quality from the stereo analog outs of the 2930 with AL24 engage will sound better then the 2910 but maybe not as good as the 3910 with the better DACs.

In my testing, I believe AL24 accounts for 75% of the sound improvement and the better DACs account for the rest. Just like the up-conversion for digital video has been proven to be closer to the original image, up converted digital audio will sound closer to it's original sound.

Remember using the DVD players AL24 processor requires you use the analog outs from the player. These DVD players to not up-convert the digital outputs which is to bad.

DustinTaj

08-18-06, 10:57 AM

I didn't say anything about a "sale," I said I got a good deal...actually I said I didn't pay list price. I never pay list price Other than list price, pricing discussions are not allowed in the forum.

I'm sorry, bri1270. I guess I misunderstood. But if I read your quote: "I was going to get one, but I was told to wait for a sale that's coming on the 18th" it sure sounded like you knew of a sale (which was coming on the 18th - today). Apparently I was wrong. Perhaps we can talk via PM if sale discussions are not permitted.

I had the 2910 before upgrading to the 3910 and this is what I found...

The AL24 processing of the 3910 has a lot to do with the sound quality of red book CDs. I noticed it right away when I switched units.

It would be my guess that the sound quality from the stereo analog outs of the 2930 with AL24 engage will sound better then the 2910 but maybe not as good as the 3910 with the better DACs.

In my testing, I believe AL24 accounts for 75% of the sound improvement and the better DACs account for the rest. Just like the up-conversion for digital video has been proven to be closer to the original image, up converted digital audio will sound closer to it's original sound.

Remember using the DVD players AL24 processor requires you use the analog outs from the player. These DVD players to not up-convert the digital outputs which is to bad.

Thanks, Bucky63. I was hoping for a response something like that. I plan on hooking up the 2930 only via the analog multi-channel outputs into my receiver's multi-channel inputs. Additionally, I plan on using the "bass enhancer" feature to split the low frequencies to the sub while listening to 2-channel sources (through multi-channel output). I presume AL24 processing will work this way? I do not plan on hooking up the 2-channel analog outputs to anything, as I see no need (unless I'm mistaken).

Thanks again. I'd also like to hear real-world redbook experience on the 2930 if anyone has it.

bri1270

08-18-06, 11:03 AM

Dustin,

My apoligies, I didn't go back far enough in the thread...I tend to get a little hastey in my responses sometimes.

pbmpharmacist

08-18-06, 11:14 AM

I won't be able to answer that until later, when I get a chance to play with it some more.

One thing I failed to mention si the build quality. It's definitely a solid little player. It's short, but very...dense, for lack of a better word.

Any advice would be appreciated. I'd hate to have to return it because I was just too stupid to figure out how to manuever in the menus.

DustinTaj

08-18-06, 12:04 PM

Any advice would be appreciated. I'd hate to have to return it because I was just too stupid to figure out how to manuever in the menus.

I seem to remember reading something like this with the 2910, but being that I don't own either I probably can't help. But I think certain things can be greyed out depending on what you have set in other menus. So, maybe you have denon link "on" or some other setting like that which is prohibiting you from accessing the menu you need to get to.

Of course, I honestly don't know.
Does the manual not help at all? Does Denon not have tech support?

pbmpharmacist

08-18-06, 12:12 PM

I seem to remember reading something like this with the 2910, but being that I don't own either I probably can't help. But I think certain things can be greyed out depending on what you have set in other menus. So, maybe you have denon link "on" or some other setting like that which is prohibiting you from accessing the menu you need to get to.

Of course, I honestly don't know.
Does the manual not help at all? Does Denon not have tech support?

It's not really a big deal it's just not clear in the manual or the menus how things work. This is my first Denon product. I really like the player though so as long as there isn't anything functionally wrong with it, I'm keeping it.

I did calll Denon tech support and after 30 minutes I got a ridicously stupid guy who couldn't figure it out. He put me on whole for another 10 minutes and I hung up. I'd rather just spend an hour tonight playing with it to figure it out myself.

I'm pretty sure my questions revolve around user error. I just wish the manual was a little clearer like the manual for my upconverting Marantz DV7600 (which I'll be now getting rid of).

PooperScooper

08-18-06, 12:47 PM

Just glanced at the manual online. It doesn't show any obvious issues with getting to the audio setup menu. Do you have any other cables connected besides HDMI? May it can tell if you don't...

larry

bri1270

08-18-06, 12:48 PM

For those that have asked or may ask, I want to clarify something. I don't have a "connection" at any store. I negotiate every purchase like it was my first...but they've all been from the same place...and actually the same guy. We have a good rapport, and we know what to expect from one another...and since he takes god care of me, I take good care of him by going back to him. Of course I didn't in this case, but that's because I was too anxious, and I know there was a possibility of not keeping the player. Any person should be able to go into any electronics store and negotiate a deal that makes them happy...or at least comfortable.

bri1270

08-18-06, 12:52 PM

pb - I'll take a look tonight and see if I can't figure it out.

pbmpharmacist

08-18-06, 01:03 PM

pbmpharmacist

08-18-06, 01:07 PM

Just glanced at the manual online. It doesn't show any obvious issues with getting to the audio setup menu. Do you have any other cables connected besides HDMI? May it can tell if you don't...

larry

The manual isn't very clear. I just looked it (for the third time) and it seems like all of the audio options are separated out in two places: Under HDMI LPCM and under the audio menu. It says something about them being the same options. Tonight I'll hook up the player with component and optical and see what happens then.

I really like this player so far. It's really solid. I just think the manual and the menu could be a LOT clearer in certain places. But let's face it, once I get the player set up how I like it, I never mess around with setting anymore so it doesn't actually matter. I just want to make sure that everything is 100% ok during my return period.

PooperScooper

08-18-06, 01:14 PM

Making the HDMI LPCM and 6ch output LPCM be the same makes sense. The audio has to be LPCM data in order to do the speaker distance, etc., processing.

larry

bri1270

08-18-06, 01:18 PM

really like this player so far. It's really solid. I just think the manual and the menu could be a LOT clearer in certain places. But let's face it,

I totally agree, especially with regards to the manual. It's all but useless.

pbmpharmacist

08-18-06, 06:42 PM

2930 owners and future owners will want to remember this to save themselves hassle...

To get into ANY Audio settings on this player, go to "HDMI audio setup" and not the "audio menu" itself. Change to "2 channel" and the audio menu is now accessible. Change to "MULTI (LCPM)" to change audio settings through HDMI. This is true even if you are NOT using HDMI (I was using component and optical and couldn't figure it out until I just kept playing with it).

The manual sucks and the menu is confusing but this is still a great player so don't let my posts dissuade you. Way better than my Marantz DV7600 which was about the same price.

Kage

08-18-06, 09:53 PM

I might order the 2930 next week, but I am not sure if it is worth the upgrade from my Sony DVP-NS3100ES.

Sid Viscous

08-18-06, 10:01 PM

I might order the 2930 next week, but I am not sure if it is worth the upgrade from my Sony DVP-NS3100ES.
It's most likely way better.

DavidHir

08-18-06, 10:06 PM

I started to post my initial thoughts of the 2930ci earlier and it was accidently deleted when I was editing it. So, here is a re-write with more detail.

My demo of the player took place with a nearly two year Sony 57" CRT RPTV (KP-57WS520). My display has been very well calibrated from head to toe and ISF'd, as well (all back in Jan.). My set's native inputs are 480i, 480p, and 1080i. It also contains an HDMI connection.

Let me just come out and state it. I am not impressed with the video quality of the 2930ci for a list price of $849.00. Yes, it produced a good image - in fact - a very good image. However, it does NOT exceed my $150 Oppo 970 believe it or not. In fact, I prefer the Oppo! I carefully calibrated my display for all basic settings with the 2930ci using Avia and DVE. I could only get the player to pass BTB and avoid white clipping via HDMI 1080i by using Manual 1 with +1 brightness and -1 for contrast. I entered my display's service menu, turning off two colors at a time to calibrate for proper color decoding.

I did A/B testing with a several film-based DVDs (including King Kong, Return of the King Extended Edition, SW: A New Hope). I'm VERY familar with the way certain scenes in these films look as I often use these scenes for testing. I mean I know them like the back of my hand.

On any rate, the colors between the Oppo and Denon are remarkably similar at 1080i HDMI. Black level quality and shadow detail was also about equal.

Looking at the 100mhz and 200mhx Avia Resolution patterns indicate about equal resolution with my display. The Oppo showed just a tad more vertical resolution on the pattern, but would be non-visible for practical viewing.

In fact, the image of these players (aside from the compression issue of the Oppo upscaled) is very similar. But, the Oppo appears to be just a bit cleaner and a hair sharper.

Both players produce a "filmlike" image...a very analog type looking image (non-digital looking like some players).

Some scenes of the Denon appear to have some slight noise (artifacts) and a certain slight softness in the image --- something I didn't see in the Oppo. Again, it's pretty subtle, but noticable none the less. I think Hans mentioned something about this too and I definitely see it.

I did not try some of the Denon's other settings for "extra" enhancement as others have described.

One thing that really bothered me while doing all of this was the extremely slow navigation of the remote. I mean the delay from the time you hit the button until you get a response. I guess I'm just used to the super fast response of the Oppo.

All in all, I was fortunate enough to have a local retailer lend me the player for the weekend.

I do not recommend buying this player only for upconversion. I'm not sure what the audio is like (doesn't concern me). There are other choices at far better prices for upscaling including the Oppo and Toshiba HD-A1 just off the top of my head. For those who are wondering whether or not the 2930ci exceeds the 3910. I also demo's the 3910 earlier in the year and I would take the 3910 over the 2930ci if you don't get macroblocking.

Sid Viscous

08-18-06, 10:16 PM

timf98

08-18-06, 10:40 PM

I don't mean to derail this thread but thought I'd present an option I chose. I was considering the 2930 but I ended up getting a new 3910 for the same price. There were some compelling reasons...

3910 has better audio section
3910 has better build quality
3910 still has best video and diagonal deinterlacing
3910 has i-link
3910 has both DVI and HDMI connectors
3910 has minimal macroblocking

What I lose is...
2930 upconverts to 1080p
2930 has mosquito noise reduction
2930 can do 480i over HDMI

I may have overlooked some differences, but in my case I think it was a good tradeoff.

alfbinet

08-19-06, 01:01 AM

What is going on here the last post is dated 8/17 at 10:40 p.m.? My email indicates there are more responses to this thread?

alfbinet

08-19-06, 01:27 AM

Well, the HD-A/X1 is a horrible DVD player for the price. So, if you think it compares to the Oppo, there is nothing to see. I have you guys figured out now, however. You like DVD players that filter out the noise with **** conversion and enhance the edges of things. I personally, just want to see what's on the disc, good or bad.

Sid, you can not be honest and say this player (Tosh A1) is horrible for the price. I have both (Oppo) and there is no comparison. I have a 3910 and there is no comparison. Video noise (not film grain) is evident in the 3910 and Oppo. Not so in the Toshiba A1 for $500. I appreciate that you dun both the HD format and BD format but this is becoming ridiculous, as well that you are making hits in a thread that has nothing to do with HD DVD's (for both formats!)

blindcat7

08-19-06, 01:39 AM

Has anyone compared the audio performance of the 2930 to that of the 3910? Also, what audio upgrades will the 3930 have over the 3910, and is it true that the 3930 lost the i-link output? I am looking for a universal player to last for the long haul.

I am also curious whether any of those who have gotten their hands on the 2930 and also have an Oppo 970 have compared their performance as a CD/DVD-A/SACD player.

Thanks,

Chris

SledgeHammer

08-19-06, 02:09 AM

Denon has done a little updating on the 3930CI on their website. Not a whole lot, but they posted back pics.

* They dropped iLink. Thank god. Now maybe these iLink fans will stop whining about how the AVRs don't have 'em either :). Just admit this connector is dead already :).

* Audio outputs are pretty identical save for a layout change.

* They dropped the color coded connectors. Uh... why? to confuse to the customer?

* Are those BNC connectors added to the component video section? Why? to confuse the customer? BNC connectors are another worthless niche connector like iLink. No mainstream AVR I've ever seen has them.

Manual should be posted shortly.

bri1270

08-19-06, 06:52 AM

Bill Mac

08-19-06, 08:03 AM

* They dropped iLink. Thank god. Now maybe these iLink fans will stop whining about how the AVRs don't have 'em either :). Just admit this connector is dead already :).
* Are those BNC connectors added to the component video section? Why? to confuse the customer? BNC connectors are another worthless niche connector like iLink. No mainstream AVR I've ever seen has them.

I have i-link on my 74txvi and use it with my 79avi. I was interested in the 3930 but when I saw that i-link was deleted I will pass. The only all digital connection for all formats is Denon link (on the 3930) which I do not have a Denon receiver with that input. I can understand why Denon would not include i-link, be it cost or to get people to buy their receivers with Denon link.

But to say the i-link connection is dead is not correct in my opinion. There are many people here that use this connection. Also the fact that Denon did not update to HDMI 1.2 on their new players limits people who want a one cable connection to a choice of only Denon receivers.

As far as BNC outputs I have a commercial Panasonic with BNC connectors, so if I wanted to use that connection I could. Worthless, maybe to most people but IMO if someone is buying the 3930 I would think that BNC outputs would not confuse them in the least. Am I whining about the lack of units without i-link not at all, it would have been nice to have it but with HDMI 1.3 in the future I will be happy with what I have for now.

It seems that because you do not have i-link or BNC inputs/outputs that they are useless input/output. I do not have any Denon products but would not call Denon link useless just because I have no need for it. There are I am sure many people with Denon products that use it which is great in my book.

Bill

Sid Viscous

08-19-06, 08:16 AM

Sid, you can not be honest and say this player (Tosh A1) is horrible for the price. I have both (Oppo) and there is no comparison. I have a 3910 and there is no comparison. Video noise (not film grain) is evident in the 3910 and Oppo. Not so in the Toshiba A1 for $500. I appreciate that you dun both the HD format and BD format but this is becoming ridiculous, as well that you are making hits in a thread that has nothing to do with HD DVD's (for both formats!)

The HD-A1 is a bad DVD player. It has nothing to do with HD-DVD (where the HD-A/X1 are bad players that put out great images).

BillP

08-19-06, 09:24 AM

Has anyone compared the audio performance of the 2930 to that of the 3910? Also, what audio upgrades will the 3930 have over the 3910
The 2200, 2910, and 2930 all have the same exact audio DACs. The 2900 was a step up for audio from the 2200, and the 3910 was another step up from the 2900 for audio. The 3930 has the same audio DACs as the 3910. First, you have to be using the player's audio DACs to hear a difference (they will sound the same if you use digital out and your receiver's DACs). Second, other things will affect audio besides the DACs, but IMO the DACs are a limiting factor for how good the audio can sound. Since the 3930 is not available yet, one can only guess, but my guess is that the 3930 will sound the same as the 3910, which does sound better than the 2930 or 2910 (assuming you use analog connections and have an audio system of good enough quality to hear the difference). Where the 3930 should be appreciably better than the 3910 is for video since it uses the same chip as the 5910, especially if you have a display prone to show MB with the 3910. Since I see no MB with my 3910, I'm sticking with it until getting into high def players (next generation).

pbmpharmacist

08-19-06, 09:36 AM

Well it appears that my 2930 has died. It was working great, no problems yesterday. We went out for dinner, rented V for Vendetta and then came home to find that it doesn't do anything. Sure the red circle goes from red to green but nothing else works. I tried everything.

I'm taking it back today. I'm probably going to blacklist Denon now since I spent $700 bucks on a Marantz DV7600 that I hate and am going to give to Goodwill. Since this player appears to have died, that's too many issues with D+M Holdings for me.

BillP

08-19-06, 11:02 AM

Well it appears that my 2930 has died...... I'm taking it back today. I'm probably going to blacklist Denon now since I spent $700 bucks on a Marantz DV7600 that I hate and am going to give to Goodwill. Since this player appears to have died, that's too many issues with D+M Holdings for me.
"Blacklisting" Denon seems a little extreme. You'll be able to exchange it for a brand new player, so what's the big deal? Defective players happen with every manufacturer.

ralittle2

08-19-06, 11:12 AM

I just checked Crutchfield's site, and they list the 1930ci as estimated to arrive on 8/31.

DavidHir

08-19-06, 11:37 AM

Well, the HD-A/X1 is a horrible DVD player for the price. So, if you think it compares to the Oppo, there is nothing to see. I have you guys figured out now, however. You like DVD players that filter out the noise with **** conversion and enhance the edges of things. I personally, just want to see what's on the disc, good or bad.

Neither the Oppo nor Toshiba filters anything or adds EE. You are the ONLY person on the entire AVS forum that says the HD-A1 is a horrible player (or the Oppo as it sounds). Many, many people dumped their Denon 2910s and 3910s (and other players) in favor of the Toshiba.

DavidHir

08-19-06, 11:40 AM

In resonse to David's review,

I'm curious about the BTB issue David had, because I had no problems getting the player to pass in standard mode via HDMI at any resolution.

I haven't had any navagation issues either. Compared to the Sony 3100 the Denon is super fast.

I haven't seen any noise, but I have definitely seem some strange stuff going on in dark scenes. If this player had the FLI chipset, I would have called it MB. I plan on putting the 3100ES back in and comparing the same movies (Ice Age and Underworld Evolution). Can't wait to get the Oppo 970 in my hands to see how it compares.

bri,

I'm not sure why that was the case.

I've encountered another strange issue. I cannot get the player to output 480p over component. I have every set-up menu item available to output progressive and have read through the manual, but, it's only passing an interlaced signal over component.

Yes, navigation was painfully slow for me with this player. I no longer have the Sony, but the Sony seemed faster to me. I'm starting to wonder if it's possible there is an issue with my player.

In all honesty, I would say the 3100ES is pretty close to this player. Be sure to calibrated for each one you may be surprised.

P.S. I have a used Denon 2900 arriving today.

pbmpharmacist

08-19-06, 11:42 AM

"Blacklisting" Denon seems a little extreme. You'll be able to exchange it for a brand new player, so what's the big deal? Defective players happen with every manufacturer.

Doesn't seem extreme to me. I paid 700 bucks for a Marantz DV7600. I got it home and it was DOA. Wouldn't play any disks at all. I got them to give me another one and this one causes audio drop outs when passing Dolby Digital via HDMI. I blamed my Yamaha receiver repeatedly but it turned out that it its the DVD player. So I have a 700 door stop from them already (I have no local service center and their phone wait times are insane). I thought Denon would be quality but I guess not. Maybe I can score a deal on a Pioneer Elite or something. If not, I'm just getting an Oppo and saving cash for the winner of the HD-DVD / BluRay debate.

bri1270

08-19-06, 11:53 AM

I've encountered another strange issue. I cannot get the player to output 480p over component. I have every set-up menu item available to output progressive and have read through the manual, but, it's only passing an interlaced signal over component.

Yes, navigation was painfully slow for me with this player. I no longer have the Sony, but the Sony seemed faster to me. I'm starting to wonder if it's possible there is an issue with my player.

In all honesty, I would say the 3100ES is pretty close to this player. Be sure to calibrated for each one you may be surprised.

I was going to ask you about the component 480p output. Guess there's no sense now.

My navigation is quick, both on the player menus and the movie menus. I did find it a bit slower when a movie was actually playing, and I accessed them, but when the movie was stopped there were no issues. It's definitely faster than the 3100.

I did put the 3100 back in, but I haven't watched anything yet. I'll get to that in a while. Right now I'm just taking a little break from some yard work.

I'm not sure if you have an issue with your player or not, but aside from the 480p over component issues (which I haven't tested yet), I am not experiencing the same things.

DavidHir

08-19-06, 12:02 PM

Yes, the navigation slowness I experienced was on Avia, DVE, and with movies (selecting various chapters to test, etc.) During the Denon set-up menus, it wasn't an issue really.

pbmpharmacist

08-19-06, 02:47 PM

Well good luck all. I scored a demo Pioneer Elite 59AVi for a very cheap price. I'll use the money I saved by returning the 2930 for future HD DVD use.

SledgeHammer

08-19-06, 03:49 PM

I have i-link on my 74txvi and use it with my 79avi. I was interested in the 3930 but when I saw that i-link was deleted I will pass. The only all digital connection for all formats is Denon link (on the 3930) which I do not have a Denon receiver with that input. I can understand why Denon would not include i-link, be it cost or to get people to buy their receivers with Denon link.

The only real use for iLink is to pass SACD or DVD-A digitally. SACD and DVD-A is such a tiny niche market that its irrelevant now. Of course I would love better audio quality, but I'm not going to invest or spend money on a format that has clearly never taken off and never will. So I'd rather have devices focus more on stuff that'll actually provide a more mainstream benefit. HDMI 1.2 has added support for SACD and DVD-A. I suspect more for marketing reasons and being able to say "HDMI does EVERYTHING" then because of too many people wanting it.

I'm not trying to bash people who invested in DVD-A or SACD, but, hey, people invested in laser discs too and that never evolved past a niche market :).

Bottom line is, the digital audio format that HAS taken off in a big way is the MP3. Thats clearly shown by the direction AVRs have headed over the past year or two. Lots of support for streaming digital music from a PC, LAN and portable devices such as an iPod. I don't have an iPod and don't really plan on getting one, but I can definitely see why almost everyone is adding iPod docking support to AVRs. Thats way more bang for the buck IMO.

But to say the i-link connection is dead is not correct in my opinion. There are many people here that use this connection. Also the fact that Denon did not update to HDMI 1.2 on their new players limits people who want a one cable connection to a choice of only Denon receivers.

Most manafacturers didn't update to 1.2 because its main purpose was SACD and DVD-A and it was a stop gap solution til 1.3 became available for the new HiDef Audio codecs. It was like "should we spend all this time and money to update to 1.2 for the 1% of people who use those formats or hold off for 1.3 for the 99% of people who don't?"

Everybody and everything will be updated to 1.3 while most passed on 1.2. That says the state of the DVD-A and SACD market and thus the iLink connector since thats its only use.

As far as BNC outputs I have a commercial Panasonic with BNC connectors, so if I wanted to use that connection I could. Worthless, maybe to most people but IMO if someone is buying the 3930 I would think that BNC outputs would not confuse them in the least. Am I whining about the lack of units without i-link not at all, it would have been nice to have it but with HDMI 1.3 in the future I will be happy with what I have for now.

Most people are already confused at what connector they should use for what. Thats what I was going at. Nobody buying equipment today is going to opt for BNC connectors. They used to be used for the high-end PC market which has since moved to DVI.

It seems that because you do not have i-link or BNC inputs/outputs that they are useless input/output. I do not have any Denon products but would not call Denon link useless just because I have no need for it. There are I am sure many people with Denon products that use it which is great in my book.

Nah, not at all :). Seriously, I'm not bashing stuff cuz I dont have it. I am yet to even upgrade to hi-def period. I'm running all ancient stuff. Stuff has just been too variable for me in the past few years and anything purchased is essentially "obsolete out of the box" if its not 1080p, HDMI and HD-DVD/BluRay compatible. On the other hand, you've been enjoying your stuff for the past 5 yrs and I haven't :).

I'm probably getting VERY close to pulling the trigger on this upcoming generation of equipment. Full 1080p support in everything, a 1080p plasma, HDMI 1.3 and native support for DTS-HD and DD+ is a good stopping point I think.

Geof

08-19-06, 03:58 PM

Most people are already confused at what connector they should use for what. Thats what I was going at. Nobody buying equipment today is going to opt for BNC connectors.HUH? Why not. There isn't any question in my mind which connector I'd use. BNC is a far superior connector compared to the RCA Jack -- both electrically (it can be a true 75 Ohm connector) and mechanically (they won't become accidentally connected).

Sid Viscous

08-19-06, 06:15 PM

Neither the Oppo nor Toshiba filters anything or adds EE. You are the ONLY person on the entire AVS forum that says the HD-A1 is a horrible player (or the Oppo as it sounds). Many, many people dumped their Denon 2910s and 3910s (and other players) in favor of the Toshiba.

I know nothing about the Oppo and have never claimed that I do. As far as the other claim, if 1000 people say crap tastes good and 1 says it doesn't, would you eat it?

Oh, the filter thing. D/As absolutely act as filters. Good ones let noise pass, bad ones don't. I am not saying this is the case, but if the Oppo and Deno have noise and the Toshiba doesn't, this is most likely the reason.

shane55

08-19-06, 07:11 PM

Well... that's it.
Enough speculation.

Just placed an order with ABT. I should have it by Friday. :D

"Let me see then, what thereat is, and this mystery explore--" EAP

shane

PooperScooper

08-19-06, 08:10 PM

I know nothing about the Oppo and have never claimed that I do. As far as the other claim, if 1000 people say crap tastes good and 1 says it doesn't, would you eat it?

Oh, the filter thing. D/As absolutely act as filters. Good ones let noise pass, bad ones don't. I am not saying this is the case, but if the Oppo and Deno have noise and the Toshiba doesn't, this is most likely the reason. You have a point the the nuimbers thing. Everybody has an opinion and for them that's all that really matters. Many people like what they see in a given player, but at the same time most don't know what they should be seeing. With respect to the A1, it's a very good SD DVD player, but not the best. From what I see it looks like it is doing some NR that makes it look "prettier" but usually at the expense of filtering out data from the DVD. I think this is why many people like it.

larry

DavidHir

08-19-06, 08:19 PM

You have a point the the nuimbers thing. Everybody has an opinion and for them that's all that really matters. Many people like what they see in a given player, but at the same time most don't know what they should be seeing. With respect to the A1, it's a very good SD DVD player, but not the best. From what I see it looks like it is doing some NR that makes it look "prettier" but usually at the expense of filtering out data from the DVD. I think this is why many people like it.

larry

A lot of it comes down to your display. Certain players have better "marriages" with certain displays. Of course, calibration also plays a huge factor.

As far as the numbers thing, my point was that every videophile/expert I've spoken to - including Kris Deering - thought the Toshiba was at least very good with SD DVD. I too thought it was very good, however, I consider myself a non-professional, "mild" videophile if you will....certainly not like some other folks on the forum.

DavidHir

08-20-06, 11:29 AM

P.S. I have a used Denon 2900 arriving today.

My 2900 arrived and let me just say on thing about it: it produces the best standard DVD image I've ever seen on my display.

Kage

08-20-06, 01:17 PM

I found a review on the Denon DVD-2930. Please click here. (http://www.hometheaterblog.com/hometheater/2006/08/denon_dvd2930ci.html)

bri1270

08-20-06, 02:09 PM

I read that review, and it seemed a bit gushy to me, and so far I'm like the only fan of it in this thread. I'd like to see what Kris Deering and the folks at Secrets have to say. I wonder when they'll get their hands on one.

PooperScooper

08-20-06, 08:19 PM

I read some of the review and have read some of his other reivews. I'm not saying anything one way or the other about the 2930, but this guy is not reviewer I believe 100%. No different than other "professional" reviewers. I do believe the 2930 does well on the HQV test disc. :) I find it hard to believe that the 2930 would not be one of the top 480p output players unless the Reon chip has some issues (things not covered by the HQV test disc :) ).

larry

DavidHir

08-20-06, 11:36 PM

I was finally able to see the component 480p output of the 2930ci for the first time. (It just so happens that if the HDMI select is on, 480 on component is interlaced; HDMI has to be turned off.) The 480p component output on this player is outstanding and is right up there with the 2900 which is saying an awful lot.

shane55

08-21-06, 01:55 AM

So how does 480p over component compare to the same rate or to 720p or 1080i over HDMI?

shane

bri1270

08-21-06, 05:52 AM

David,

Do you prefer the 480p over component to 480p over HDMI?

I ask because I watched both Swordfish and Tombstone yesterday, and I could help but notice how fantastic both movies looked using the RGB - 480p setting with only the DNR turned on to 1. The player is definitely growing on me. Today I should receive the Oppo 970 for a comparison.

bri1270

08-21-06, 07:05 AM

Larry,

When you say I find it hard to believe that the 2930 would not be one of the top 480p output players unless the Reon chip has some issues (things not covered by the HQV test disc ).

Would you say that it should be better than the Oppo 970 at 480p ?

Just curious what your thoughts are based on the chip sets and such.

DavidHir

08-21-06, 09:24 AM

I'm actually more impressed with the 2930ci over 480p component than 1080i upscaled. The image is a bit sharper over 480p, but it seems a little smoother over 1080i. Much of this may just have to do with my display being a CRT RPTV. 480p always looks a bit sharper, but at 1080i it's smoother and no trace of scanlines are present. Also, after more comparisons at 480p, the 2930ci is actually a bit sharper than the 2900.

I was a little critical of this player initally, but after playing with some of its settings over the weekend, I've grown to like it much better too. I kind of like having the ability to upscale when I feel like it, or just leave it at 480p. I didn't get a chance to test 480p HDMI. Component looks a tad better than HDMI on my display, so I try to use component when possible....of course, no choice but to use HDMI when upscaling.

I'll take back what I said earlier - this player is better than the Oppo 970. However, it's really a matter of HOW much better considering it costs so much more. Obviously, one has to determine if the extra PQ is worth hundreds of dollars more.

PooperScooper

08-21-06, 09:45 AM

Larry,

When you say

Would you say that it should be better than the Oppo 970 at 480p ?

Just curious what your thoughts are based on the chip sets and such.Based on the performance of the Reon on the HQV benchmarks and how well the Realta worked. i.e. SO's track record. However, a lot of the performance/correctness is for things you may not care about or ever notice. We won't know for sure until someone credible (e.g. Kris) puts it through its paces. Hopefully Kris will use some of the newer deinterlacer tests he has mentioned.

larry

zeropoint

08-21-06, 12:38 PM

Thought some people might like to see the 3930's insides showing over at AreaDVD.

http://www.areadvd.de/images/2006/denon_dvd_3930_inside.jpg

s2silber

08-21-06, 02:17 PM

Thought some people might like to see the 3930's insides showing over at AreaDVD.
Very sexy. Now, if we could only see one in the flesh, finally. :(

PooperScooper

08-21-06, 02:55 PM

The German page says that the Realta chip is doing the scaling too.

larry

bri1270

08-21-06, 03:54 PM

DavidHir

08-21-06, 06:23 PM

DavidHir,

Now that the 2930 seems to be growing on you also, how would you compare the Oppo 970 at 480p ?

I'll run my own comparison this week, I'm just curious what your thoughts are since you seem to have the same promary objective that I have...which is a very good 480p player for a reasonable price. If the Oppo is relatively close, then the 2930 and my Sony 3100 go up on ebay. If it's not so close then the Oppo gets returned and the Sony still goes up on ebay.

The 2930 is better than the Oppo at 480p (component). I would suspect this to be the case with HDMI too (if anything, I'd think these days HDMI is given priority over component in such a player if it comes down to it).

The 2930 is noticably sharper and more 'natural' looking. The Oppo looks pretty natural too, but not quite as much as the Denon. In addition, the Denon is more striking looking and has a bit more detail.

I'll give you one example of extra detail between the players. On Star Wars: A New Hope (can't remember which chapter), but just before Luke joins Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru to eat, the chapter opens as you can see fairly little detail on Owen's face (as he's sitting at the table) with the 970 and it looks slightly darker. But, with the 2930, not only do you see more detail on his face with better definition, his face almost looks lighter...more natural...better rendition of his skin color. Despite equal contrast, brightness, color, etc. calibration with both players, the 2930 shows more detail in darker areas like this..and those areas don't look so dark any longer...they come to life more.

I also think there might be some good potential with the MGPEG and DNR settings.

Unfortunately, my demo trial ended today and I had to return the player. I wish I had more time with it. These are some (non-HQV) tests I wanted to run on it, but didn't have time. I really hope

I no longer have my 3100ES (sold it on eBay) because of the built-in edge enhancement issue is has, so I can only work on memory....but I think the 970 is definitely better than the 3100ES.

It's really going to come down to whether or not you think the extra performance of the 2930 is worth that much more than the Oppo. The Oppo is certainly no slouch.

DavidHir

08-21-06, 06:50 PM

One thing that I've learned: take a decent amount of time to A/B the players. Despite calibrating for each player and using scenes for which I'm famililar with (such as the Star Wars example), more things start to stand out - if even in a subtle way - the more you watch. In other words, take more than a few minutes worth of scenes/clips to do your comparisons.

Sid Viscous

08-21-06, 07:44 PM

OCDMedic

08-21-06, 07:47 PM

Could someone answer this question for me? I was planning on using the analog outs on the 2930/3930 to my receiver. If I do this will it still play the DVD's that I own that are recorded with 6.1 discrete channels and can it matrix 6.1/7.1 channels or will I have to use the digital out? I would think that using the analog out I will only be able to play 5.1 channels.

DavidHir

08-21-06, 07:58 PM

This how high end works. Any player gets 80%, the next level is from 80% to 90% and the fight to get the last 10% is nuts. The Denon is able to make DVDs look like they are supposed to, and it is pretty damn expensive. That is the price of membership. :cool:

Quite true. :)

bri1270

08-21-06, 09:39 PM

I have the Oppo installed now. I've had the Denon in the system for over a week, and watched several of my favorites. I plan on re-watching all of them on the Oppo and seeing how they compare. Since I can keep the Oppo for 30 days it's not a huge deal. I took some notes on certain scenes with the Denon, just so I can be sure to do a direct comparison. I tend to get involved in a movie no matter how many times I've seen it, so I wanted to be sure I had a few "benchmarks" noted.

I haven't calibrated with the Oppo yet, I should get to that in a while. I doubt I'll watch anything tonight, but it should be set up and ready to go.

DJSloan

08-21-06, 10:24 PM

I posted this a few days ago on the 2910 thread:

2 channel "L/R" vs 5.1 channel "Front L/R"
Is there any difference between the 2 channel out and 5.1 Front L/R analog outputs when listening to 2 channel music? i.e. burr-browns used for both or different analog output stage?

I was trying to A/B a few sets of cables and discovered I always liked the one that was on the 5.1 outs. On the other hand, I couldn't tell the difference between 3 different 0.5 meter audio interconncts.

Then I noticed this when I translated that German site on Google:

"output stage with two, Stereo exclusive D/A transducers operated in the highly precise double Differenzial mode (PCM 1796 of Burr Brown) make possible an authentic 2-Kanal-Audio-Erlebnis. Denons Advanced AL24 processing polishes Stereosignale with 24 dissolution of bit and a DVD audiotypical Samplingrate of 192 kHz effectively up. For a not less inspiring three-dimensional sound the multi-channel board makes again three D/A transducers available operated in the simple Differenzial mode (likewise Burr Brown PCM 1796), while the AL24 processing plus on all channels refined 24 bit-exact multi-channel audio data makes available"

How many Burr-Brown DAC's come in Denon players 3 or 5? It would seem they need to have 5 (3 for MC and 2 for stereo) since all are active at once. So the 2 channel stereo outputs use a similar DACs but in a "better" mode than the 5.1 channel outs? Is there any reason I could have thought the 5.1 outs were better?

The article also makes it sound as if the AL24 processing is active for dolby digital in addition to CD PCM. Is that correct?

kucharsk

08-22-06, 09:27 AM

Anyone else notice the Denon USA website promised owner's manuals and data sheets for the 3930 "8/18/2006," but they're still not there?

Geof

08-22-06, 12:44 PM

Anyone else notice the Denon USA website promised owner's manuals and data sheets for the 3930 "8/18/2006," but they're still not there?When I saw that I thought that 8/18 was when they added the "Coming Soon" note....

DustinTaj

08-22-06, 03:15 PM

PooperScooper

08-22-06, 03:27 PM

It's common for some (better) universal players to have "beefier" and separate electronics for 2ch L/R outputs. Some units have balanced outputs for the L/R in addition to the singled ended outputs. 2ch is still what most people use for critical listening of music. There may be some even higher end units with equal/top grade electronics for all channels.

larry

shane55

08-22-06, 03:42 PM

I'll be able to test this once my unit arrives on Friday, but when I had the Pio 79avi, there was no discernable difference between front L&R and Stereo out, nor digital out. The DAC's in my receiver were nearly as good (or my speakers / ears were not able to produce / discern a difference) as those in the 79avi.

So for Stereo there was no great benefit to either of the modes of delivery to the receiver.

shane

PooperScooper

08-22-06, 04:01 PM

I've never noticed anybody/anything stating that the 79avi 2ch outputs are different setups than the 6ch. It would be good to know either way. The upper end Denons are popular for modding because of the 2ch dual differential DACs for the separate L/R.

larry

shane55

08-22-06, 04:10 PM

I've never noticed anybody/anything stating that the 79avi 2ch outputs are different setups than the 6ch. It would be good to know either way.
Yeah... me neither, but I just thought I'd throw my observations into the ring.

The upper end Denons are popular for modding because of the 2ch dual differential DACs for the separate L/R.
Well, that sounds good... but being that the DACs in the 2930 are the same as those in my Denon receiver, I had assumed that I'd hear absolutely no difference.

So... are you including the 2930 in the 'upper end' category?

shane

Djoel

08-22-06, 04:28 PM

Does any know if the new 3930 will be released in silver?
Have not seen any indication of this.

Thanks
Djoel

kucharsk

08-22-06, 04:29 PM

When I saw that I thought that 8/18 was when they added the "Coming Soon" note....You may be right; Denon's web site certainly isn't very clear about it... :confused:

But then again, it's crystal clear compared to the actual text in their user's manuals. :D

PooperScooper

08-22-06, 04:31 PM

Yeah... me neither, but I just thought I'd throw my observations into the ring.

Well, that sounds good... but being that the DACs in the 2930 are the same as those in my Denon receiver, I had assumed that I'd hear absolutely no difference.

So... are you including the 2930 in the 'upper end' category?

shane
I don't think the 2930 uses the dual differential setup like the 3910/3930. Also, using the same DAC part # is only part of the picture. There is stuff on each side of it. :)

larry

DustinTaj

08-22-06, 05:25 PM

For me, I don't think using the 2-ch L&R is an option. If I go that route and I plug it into, say, CD-IN on my receiver, the receiver will do an additional A/D and D/A conversion on it unless I run it in "direct" mode (which would eliminate my sub woofer).

Using the 5.1 outputs on the Denon and having "bass enhancer" on, I can get 2-channel + subwoofer without my receiver digitizing the signal (right?).

At least I don't think my receiver A/D's the multi-channel inputs. Does anyone know? It's an Onkyo TX DS676.

Basically, I want to have 2-channel include the sub because it's better than my main speaker's bass output. I thought this would be the best way to do it.

-DD

Kevin C Brown

08-22-06, 08:24 PM

The 3910/3930 use dual differential DACs? That's news to me. Most $5000 pre/pros don't even use these. Can someone post a link to that info?

DJSloan

08-22-06, 10:34 PM

It was from the German-English google translation of this site

http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2006/denon_2006_ifa_news_2.shtml

DJSloan

08-22-06, 10:40 PM

The site quotes 1499 euro thats $1918. Are us americans getting a deal or is their tax just really high?

a_ok2me

08-22-06, 11:29 PM

Does any know if the new 3930 will be released in silver?
Have not seen any indication of this.

Thanks
DjoelThere was a link referring to picture of it in an earlier post.

kidkoala

08-23-06, 01:17 AM

Okay, I'm looking for the low-down on the 2930. I'm looking for a SOTA DVD player that will upscale to 1080p for my Samsung 5088 DLP. I've read that the 2930 is the best player out there (barring it's higher sibling) for SD DVDs. Is this true? I don't think I'll be jumping on the HD-DVD bandwagon for now, so if the Denon is better than the Toshiba HD-DVD player at playing SD DVDs than that's what I'm looking for. Anyone care to chime in?

PooperScooper

08-23-06, 09:03 AM

The 3910/3930 use dual differential DACs? That's news to me. Most $5000 pre/pros don't even use these. Can someone post a link to that info? Dual or just differential? For some reason I said dual. Could be my mistake. I think I remember where I read it. Let me go check when I get a chance. There are some players that use two per channel and one I've read about, Esoteric X0-1, that uses four.

I looked where I thought I saw it, but it didn't say dual. Sorry.

larry

DavidHir

08-23-06, 12:08 PM

For those of you who have the 2930ci, how well does it zoom or scale non-anamorphic widescreen DVDs? This was something I wasn't able test when I demo'd the unit.

bri1270

08-23-06, 01:36 PM

It only does a 2.0 zoom, so it crops more than I'd like. I don't recall it being all that good. I can check again when I get it back into the system.

DavidHir

08-23-06, 01:38 PM

That's too bad. The Denon 2900 I'm using is horrible at zooming properly.

Jase H

08-23-06, 01:49 PM

Dual or just differential? For some reason I said dual. Could be my mistake. I think I remember where I read it. Let me go check when I get a chance. There are some players that use two per channel and one I've read about, Esoteric X0-1, that uses four.

I looked where I thought I saw it, but it didn't say dual. Sorry.

larry

This German site mentions it (in German!):-

http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2006/denon_2006_ifa_news_2.shtml

3 x Burr Brown PCM1796 in differential mode for six channels. Also mentions 2 x Burr Brown PCM1796 in dual differential mode for 2ch stuff (my german isn't too hot!).

PooperScooper

08-23-06, 01:54 PM

Ok, I babblefished some of that so that's maybe where I saw it. I thought I had saw it about the 3910 also, but I can't find it. I don't think the 3910 is dual, just differential.

larry

shane55

08-23-06, 02:16 PM

This German site mentions it (in German!):-

http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2006/denon_2006_ifa_news_2.shtml

3 x Burr Brown PCM1796 in differential mode for six channels. Also mentions 2 x Burr Brown PCM1796 in dual differential mode for 2ch stuff (my german isn't too hot!).
Ok, that sounds good... but what is the actual advantage or improvement to sound in that configuration, and why (if it's not to technical). :confused:

Thanks

shane

jigesh

08-23-06, 03:00 PM

Ok, that sounds good... but what is the actual advantage or improvement to sound in that configuration, and why (if it's not to technical). :confused:

Thanks

shane

PCM1796 (http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm1796.pdf) is a stereo DAC, that means it has two DACs inside each handling one channel (L or R). See Page 5, Pin diagram of the above link. It accepts serial audio data input at pin 5 and outputs L analog (current) signal at pins 25 and 26 (in push-pull way or differential way) and outputs R analog (current) signal at pins 17 and 18 (again, in push-pull way or differential way). This differential way rejects common noise well (or produces a high CMRR - common mode rejection ratio). But if it provides really any overall improvement or not depends upon what the next stages in the circuit do with these differential signals. If they really want to treat these signals in end-to-end differential way (thereby needing larger number of subsequent components in order to process the signal differentially), the cost could be higher. Most commonly, these differential outputs are converted to single-ended as shown on Page 7 of the above link (see right-hand-side current-to-voltage converter and filter stages for L and R outputs); and some would argue the benefit of differential signals could be lost.

Geof

08-23-06, 03:51 PM

PCM1796 (http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm1796.pdf) is a stereo DAC, that means it has two DACs inside each handling one channel (L or R). See Page 5, Pin diagram of the above link. It accepts serial audio data input at pin 5 and outputs L analog (current) signal at pins 25 and 26 (in push-pull way or differential way) and outputs R analog (current) signal at pins 17 and 18 (again, in push-pull way or differential way). This differential way rejects common noise well (or produces a high CMRR - common mode rejection ratio). But if it provides really any overall improvement or not depends upon what the next stages in the circuit do with these differential signals. If they really want to treat these signals in end-to-end differential way (thereby needing larger number of subsequent components in order to process the signal differentially), the cost could be higher. Most commonly, these differential outputs are converted to single-ended as shown on Page 7 of the above link (see right-hand-side current-to-voltage converter and filter stages for L and R outputs); and some would argue the benefit of differential signals could be lost.What you say is true but this DAC can also be used in a dual differential mode. In the "Mono mode" (see page 30) both Stereo DACs are operating on one channel of data (either Left or Right as defined on page 30). In essence in this mode you have two differential DACs whose outputs can be summed together differentially. The advantage of a dual differential mode is you gain another 3 dB S/N ratio. This is because both DACs are on the same die (piece of silicon) and therefore behave virtually identically.