I need some advice.

I talked to the only local Denon dealer in my area today (which is still 40 miles away) about a 2930. He's trying to unload all of the 2910's they have so he offered me one for $599, no tax. Of course, the 2930 would be the full $849 (no tax either) due to being new and all.

My question...will there be $250 worth of difference between the two? I'm buying for about 70% audio and 30% movies. This unit will be my primary CD player as well. I'd say I'll use it more for Redbook CD than anything (although DVD-A and SACD will be used too).

I guess I'm mainly asking if the audio will be THAT much better (with the AL24 processing). My system, while not cheap, is not super high end. I have an Onkyo TXDS676 receiver, Polk RT2000p mains, CS400 center, F/X500 rear, and SVS 20-39PC+ sub.

Some have told me the sound would be noticeably better, some have said it would only be marginally better.

What do you think? Spend the extra $250 on the 2930 or save it and get the older 2910? He does not yet have the 2930 in stock for an A/B comparison.

Thanks for any help you can give.

-DD

So, in what way do these dualing differentials make the '3930 a demonstrably superior audio component? Demonstrably?
Well it'll measure better in the lab having better S/N and probably better harmonic specs but whether or not that translates into something audible depends on many factors such as the rest of your system, your room and (of course) your hearing. It makes for good PR though...

Right- Lower noise is really only what you'd get. But as mentioned, it depends on what follows too. For example, if it had balanced outputs, and depending on how the balanced outputs are hooked up to the DACs, then the result might be more tangible than if the signals are being converted to single ended.

It is interesting though that I'm not personally aware of any other player in this price range that has these. ?? They definitely are not a bad thing, and can be a good thing. :)

Well, I decided to cancel my 2930 order. I found a pretty good deal on a used 3910 so I'm going that route instead. Multi-channel audio is just as important as video to me. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread though.

Well, I decided to cancel my 2930 order. I found a pretty good deal on a used 3910 so I'm going that route instead. Multi-channel audio is just as important as video to me. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread though.

I don't think you would have been disappointed with the 2930. It's a great video and audio player.

I don't think you would have been disappointed with the 2930. It's a great video and audio player.

I might even take that one step further and say that the 2930 could be an even better video performer than the 3910.

Though others might disagree, I think the above information (diff or dual diff) alone is inconclusive without knowing the entire audio stage design. Theoretically, dual diff should give better audio; but how better, perceptible or not, etc. are difficult to say.

By the way, I see you live in Cortlandt, I live in Croton on Hdsn. Looks like we are neighbor AVS members.
From the time that the '3930 was announced, Denon said the analog audio would be better than the '3910, so we'll have to wait and see.
Yes, we are neighbor AVS members. Once the '3930 is finally released, maybe we can get a good deal by purchasing two from the same dealer at the same time. ;) Let's PM when the time comes.

Once the '3930 is finally released, maybe we can get a good deal by purchasing two from the same dealer at the same time. ;) Let's PM when the time comes.

Alright... :)

I might even take that one step further and say that the 2930 could be an even better video performer than the 3910.

True, but the jury is still out on that one. With the 3910 I know what I'm getting. After the smoke clears from the 2930/3930 release and those models prove to be a step up from their predecessors, I'll probably sell my 3910 and move up. I'm just tired of waiting to add a decent universal player to my setup.

True, but the jury is still out on that one. With the 3910 I know what I'm getting. After the smoke clears from the 2930/3930 release and those models prove to be a step up from their predecessors, I'll probably sell my 3910 and move up. I'm just tired of waiting to add a decent universal player to my setup.

Fair enough, and makes perfect sense. I think we know that the 3930 will be a better video performer, since it's the same chipset as the 5910, but it's double the price of the 2930, so for me it's not a very likely purchase. The big advantage of the 2930 for me is that it doesn't have the MB issue, or I probably would have done the same thing you plan on doing. Now would be a great time to pick up a 3910 from a cost perspective.

I'm very interested in the 2930. I just wish I had more time to play and test it.

I'm currently using a three-year-old 2900 which I just bought and really like. However, I'm wondering how much life does such a player have left. It's in great shape, but I know the previous owner got a lot of use out of it. I can't justify putting potentially several hundreds into an older, heavily used player I got for $380 if something goes wrong with it. I wonder if I should sell it now while I can (easily getting what I paid) and buy something brand new (2930) even if for more money.

The question of whether to spend more money -- on anything -- is always a personal choice based on personal budget considerations. However, as another current owner of the Denon DVD 2900, I can assure you that thanks to its solid build quality and demonstrated reliability that the 2900 is not going to wear out for a long time.
That being said, I'm looking forward to the release of the '3930 because I've wanted to take advantage of DenonLink for a long time and because the video processors are the best available. Speaking of which, the '2930 does not use the same chip as the Denon DVD 5910. That would be the 3930. Also, I'm not sure that the 2930's audio is even on a par with the 2900, which was an exceptional piece of equipment when it came out.

What do you think? Spend the extra $250 on the 2930 or save it and get the older 2910? He does not yet have the 2930 in stock for an A/B comparison.

The audio difference would only be heard if you use the analog stereo outs where you will get the benefit of the 2930's AL24 processor.

The video difference may have a bigger impact expescially if your display is one that will show micro-blocking when using the 2910. I did notice a nice improvement in picture quality when I went from the 2910 to the 3910. So if the 2930 is closer or the same as the 3910 you should see a slight video performance improvement by going to the 2930 over the 2910.

I think you would be happy with the audio/video performance of the 2910 but the 2930 will be a better DVD player all around.

One option is to find a cheaper 2910 (maybe used) and wait a while and see if the prices of the 2930 drop.

The question of whether to spend more money -- on anything -- is always a personal choice based on personal budget considerations. However, as another current owner of the Denon DVD 2900, I can assure you that thanks to its solid build quality and demonstrated reliability that the 2900 is not going to wear out for a long time.
That being said, I'm looking forward to the release of the '3930 because I've wanted to take advantage of DenonLink for a long time and because the video processors are the best available. Speaking of which, the '2930 does not use the same chip as the Denon DVD 5910. That would be the 3930. Also, I'm not sure that the 2930's audio is even on a par with the 2900, which was an exceptional piece of equipment when it came out.

Yes, the 2900 really seems like a solid unit and I haven't heard of very many reliability issues. I don't really care about audio --- just video. I was able to briefly demo the 2900 with the 2930 at 480p component. They were virtually identical....the 2930 was just a hair sharper. Another thing is that I like how the 2930 upscales...as I have that option with it. One thing I noticed that was interesting.....using the Avia sharpness pattern, the 2930 showed just a tad bit more ringing than the 2900. But, I'm not sure how noticable it would be with real world viewing. I might looking into demo'ing the 2930 one more time.

The audio difference would only be heard if you use the analog stereo outs where you will get the benefit of the 2930's AL24 processor.

The video difference may have a bigger impact expescially if your display is one that will show micro-blocking when using the 2910. I did notice a nice improvement in picture quality when I went from the 2910 to the 3910. So if the 2930 is closer or the same as the 3910 you should see a slight video performance improvement by going to the 2930 over the 2910.

I think you would be happy with the audio/video performance of the 2910 but the 2930 will be a better DVD player all around.

One option is to find a cheaper 2910 (maybe used) and wait a while and see if the prices of the 2930 drop.

Thanks bucky63. I will indeed be using ONLY the analog 5.1 outputs for everything (stereo cd, sacd, dvd-a, whatever).

The TV I use is the JVC 56" HD-ILA (JVC HD56G786 I think). I don't have a clue if it's prone to macroblocking or not. Do you know?

In general, do you guys think the AL24 processing will make a significant improvement in sound quality? How much?

All,

I'm trying to figure out whether it makes any sense for me to spend the extra money on the 3930 over the 2930 when I only have a 32" LCD. I realize the units haven't come out yet, but I wonder whether in forum members' views I will I even be able to tell the difference in the picture between the two units.

I'd appreciate your thoughts.

Clark

What is the resolution of your LCD? 1366x768? The units will output extra resolutions (VGA, XGA, SXGA, and WXGA) but none of them are 1366x768. So not matter what, your LCD will still scale. Even if it didn't have to, I'd doubt you'd see a difference between the two players. However, the 3930 will have better audio than the 2930, it that has any importance for you.

larry

The product sheet for the DVD-3930CI is up folks... you can grab it here:

http://usa.denon.com/DVD-3930CILitTent.pdf

In general, do you guys think the AL24 processing will make a significant improvement in sound quality? How much?

FWIW, for 2 channel audio, I've compared(via Digital Coax) my Denon 2900 DVD player and my very old Denon 1560 CD player through my Denon 3805 receiver(which has the AL24 processing). After comparing the AL24 versus the analog 2-channel without the AL24 processing, my ears prefer the analog signal from my 16 YEAR OLD Denon CD player. It's close, but it simply sounds better to me without the AL24 processing. The only thing the AL24 seemed to be better with was the lower frequencies. Point being, don't base your decision on the AL24 Processing. My .02...

The product sheet for the DVD-3930CI is up folks... you can grab it here:

http://usa.denon.com/DVD-3930CILitTent.pdf
One thing I forgot about until I looked at the 3930 manual is 8bit video output vs 10bit video output. The 3930 can do 10bit video output. This may be a difference between the Reon and Realta (I'm too lazy to go look back at the Reon specs and the 2930 makes no mention of 10bit video). If you have a display that accepts 10bit video, then a 10bit player is definitely worth considering.

larry

2930 is 10 bit also according to the spec sheet:

http://usa.denon.com/DVD-2930CILitTent.pdf

What is the resolution of your LCD? 1366x768? The units will output extra resolutions (VGA, XGA, SXGA, and WXGA) but none of them are 1366x768. So not matter what, your LCD will still scale.larry
So, are you saying that if 1366x768 is the native resolution of your TV, as is my LCD rear projection set, that all of the player's scaling capabilities, deinterlacing and other video processing are rendered useless? That doesn't make sense.:confused:

So, are you saying that if 1366x768 is the native resolution of your TV, as is my LCD rear projection set, that all of the player's scaling capabilities, deinterlacing and other video processing are rendered useless? That doesn't make sense.:confused: If you set the player to output 720p or 1080i the TV scaler has to do something to fit it in 1366x768 (the same thing it does if you feed it 480p). However, if you output 480p, you are still using the excellent deinterlacing capabilities of the Reon or Realta chip (2930 or 3930) and only scale once. For SD DVDs there's basically 3 stages. MPEG decode (480i/576i), deinterlace(480p/576p), and scaling. The second two are optional in the player but have to be done somewhere when going to be viewed on a digital display.

larry

Even though my CRT RPTV is 8 bit (I think anyway), is there any kind of advantage of receiving a 10 bit signal from the DVD player?

From what I see posted on this thread I should definitely use the analog outs on the 2930CI to my Onkyo TX-DS696 receiver (instead of optical) since the DAC in the Denon will outperform the DAC in the Onkyo.

Is there any drawbacks doing that?

Thanks.

That sounds like the best thing to do. I used to have that receiver before I got a Denon, and I seem to remember that is has its own version of Pure Direct, though I don't remember how to set it that way. Anyway, that would mean that you'd be using all of the player's advanced processing abilities and the Onkyo's not unsubstantial 100 wpc of power.

In general, do you guys think the AL24 processing will make a significant improvement in sound quality? How much?

In my testing I believe the AL24 processing benefits red book CDs the most. I've turned it on and off in both my 3910 and 3805 and I think it makes the music smoother and more life-like. Up-converting digital music should provide a sound closer to the original sound. Same is true for digital video.

I have said in the pass that I believe it may account for 50 to 75% of the audio sound improvement between the 2910 and the 3910. The rest of the improvement is in the better DACs, power supply and shielding.

I got an email this afternoon that my Denon 1930ci shipped out today. This is well ahead of the expected date of 8/30. New Sony TV got here today. Outlaw on the way. Dish will be here Sunday to install the HD receiver and dish. In less than a week it will be a whole new world.

From what I see posted on this thread I should definitely use the analog outs on the 2930CI to my Onkyo TX-DS696 receiver (instead of optical) since the DAC in the Denon will outperform the DAC in the Onkyo.

Is there any drawbacks doing that?

Thanks.

There are a couple of things to understand here...

One is if your Onkyo will re-digitize the analog source to do any audio processing (like PLII). Then your Onkyo's ADCs and DACs can effect the sound quality thus making the DVD players DACs less important.

You may have to use the Onkyo in the pure direct 2 channel mode if you don't want to use the Onkyo's ADCs or DACs. This pure direct mode might not let you use your sub if the cross-over processing is done in the digital processor.

Now comes the intresting part. Using the 2930's (or 3910's) DVD's analog outs so you get the benefit of the AL24 processor and then use the Onkyo's ADCs to digitize it may produce a better sound if you want to play back in a surround format like PLII. In my case my 3805 has some decent 24bit 192kHz ADCs in it so it can digitize the higher detailed AL24 process analog input and then apply the PLII surround to it. In my system, this is my preferred method of listing to CDs.

I'm not sure why Denon does not apply AL24 to all PCM being inputted into the receiver like others do (I believe Pioneer Elite does) and then apply what ever processing it then needed. The 3805's processor can handle 24bit 192kHz DVD-A audio, why can't it handle AL24 processed audio. This would allow you to use both the AL24 processor and PLII in the digital domain and eliminate a DAC to ADC conversion.

I know it can get confusing but in the end, let your ears be the judge.

Even though my CRT RPTV is 8 bit (I think anyway), is there any kind of advantage of receiving a 10 bit signal from the DVD player?Yes, you will see less "false contouring" or "banding" from scaling process (may be some benfit with deinterlacing, too). Scaling has to "invent" pixel values and smoothing between 2 8bit values to an 8bit value may not be "smooth". You go from 256 values per pixel component (on the DVD) to 1024 values per pixel component.

Analog is "infinite" size, basically. It depends on the pixel width fed to the DAC and how good the DAC is. Digital paths have fixed sizes.

larry

In my testing I believe the AL24 processing benefits red book CDs the most. I've turned it on and off in both my 3910 and 3805 and I think it makes the music smoother and more life-like. Up-converting digital music should provide a sound closer to the original sound. Same is true for digital video.

I have said in the pass that I believe it may account for 50 to 75% of the audio sound improvement between the 2910 and the 3910. The rest of the improvement is in the better DACs, power supply and shielding.


Thanks. That helps a lot!

2930 is 10 bit also according to the spec sheet:

http://usa.denon.com/DVD-2930CILitTent.pdf
When I get a chance I will compare what's different in the marketing literature between the two, video-wise. Has anyone done this yet?

Of course, the definitive answer will come when Kris Deering reviews the players.

Yes, I'd really like to see Kris Deering's reviews of these players --- hopefully, it won't be too long.

It attracts me as a final (probably) SACD/DVD-A player since (1) support for those formats is not likely in the future and (2) I have a wall of SACD/DVD-A discs.

Kal

Hi Kal,

Well, I hope you are wrong about SACD. I have a bunch of them as well...and I truly love listening to each and every one. SACD is such a great sound. I use a Denon 2910 player through Polk LSi9s. So much money is being spent on recording equipment for DSD/SACD (see Telarc website and Sony).

I'm looking to move the 2910 in to my bedroom and get a 3930ci for my home theater. I thought for sure Blu-Ray would be great out the gates...but alas...all the feedback shows that both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are complete duds. So, I'm not even looking at them for now. Upscaled sDVD seems to meet my needs...especially if the discs are mastered well. 2,3 or 4 years from now I may reevaluate Blu-Ray. But, heck, I'm just a consumer talking.

Marcus

For those interested in the 1930...
http://usa.denon.com/DVD-1930CILitTent.pdf

When I get a chance I will compare what's different in the marketing literature between the two, video-wise. Has anyone done this yet?

Of course, the definitive answer will come when Kris Deering reviews the players.
In the marketing literature the big difference video-wise w.r.t. the 3930 over the 2930 is:

"Regularity in pixel-level patterns are rapidly and accurately detected not only in the 3:2 patterns of film sources but in other patterns as well during I/P (Interlaced/Progressive) conversion. Even when sources contain both Video mode and Film mode material, each mode is detected and processed accurately at high speed. Flicker caused by detection delays is avoided, and Progressive playback with high picture quality is possible from a variety of discs."

The other difference is digital keystone correction.

It looks like there is an error in the 2930's AL24 processing description since it is identical to that of the 3930 and it even mentions "Advanced AL24 Processing."

By the way, the "8/18/2006" on Denon's 3930 page apparently WAS when they posted the "coming soon" text, as the date for the product sheet is listed as 8/24/2006…

2930 is 10 bit also according to the spec sheet:

http://usa.denon.com/DVD-2930CILitTent.pdf Good! I was too lazy and go back and look. :)

larry

Edit: Actually, I wasn't lazy. :) I searched this doc and no mentioned of 10bit video that I saw. http://www.usa.denon.com/DVD-2930CI-OM-E.pdf

Odd that's it's not mentioned in the manual isn't it? That was the first place I looked when I saw your earlier comment. Then I went back to the Denon site and looked at the Marketing cut sheet and there it was ... I'm pretty psyched about it myself actually.

bri1270,

Did you do any comparisons with the 2930ci against the Oppo 970? Anymore thoughts/impressions?

When I looked in the 2930 manual I got the impression that the supported WXGA mode is 768x1280 (Instead of 768x1366 which is what I need) . Is this true?

Isn't 768x1366 a more common resolution than 768x1280?

The only devices that I know of that use 768x1280 are a few DLP projectors but 768x1366 are quite common both for, admittedly a few, LCD projectors and many LCD TV's.

/Ingvar

bri1270,

Did you do any comparisons with the 2930ci against the Oppo 970? Anymore thoughts/impressions?

I have only watched Star Wars on the Oppo thus far, and I give this one to the Denon. To me the Oppo has a much more grainy look to it with this film. The Denon was by far smoother IMO. There's something to be said for grainy, but it seemed to be more than the "film like grainy" look to me. I plan on watching both Swordfish and Tombstone with the Oppo this weekend.

I have only watched Star Wars on the Oppo thus far, and I give this one to the Denon. To me the Oppo has a much more grainy look to it with this film. The Denon was by far smoother IMO. There's something to be said for grainy, but it seemed to be more than the "film like grainy" look to me. I plan on watching both Swordfish and Tombstone with the Oppo this weekend.

This week I was able to do some extensive A/B testing with the 970 and Denon 2900 at 480p component. Without a doubt, the 2900 is better. The image is sharper, more detailed, smoother, and more filmlike. As I keep saying, I wish I had more time to A/B the 2900 and 2930.

As I keep saying, I wish I had more time to A/B the 2900 and 2930.

Do you have a Tweeter near you? They have a no hassle 30 day return policy.

Do you have a Tweeter near you? They have a no hassle 30 day return policy.

Unfortunately, there are none in my state. I suppose Crutchfield is an option once they receive them.

When I looked in the 2930 manual I got the impression that the supported WXGA mode is 768x1280 (Instead of 768x1366 which is what I need) . Is this true? yes

Isn't 768x1366 a more common resolution than 768x1280?
It may be for HDTV displays, but I guess not for a defined PC resolution.

The only devices that I know of that use 768x1280 are a few DLP projectors but 768x1366 are quite common both for, admittedly a few, LCD projectors and many
LCD TV's. Most common: DLPs are 1280x720 - HDTV 720p. Now 1080p. Some older ones were either 1024x748 or 852x480.

There reason why there is no 1366x768 resolution output is because there is no standard for it (I don't think) like HDTV resolutions and PC resolutions, e.g. XGA, SXGA, etc. Also, many displays that are native 1366x768 do not accept that resolution as input. Some that do will only take 1360x768.

larry

Unfortunately, there are none in my state. I suppose Crutchfield is an option once they receive them.
ABT also has a 'Crutchfield-like' return policy. That is where I ordered mine... which is due at my front door today. :D

shane

Edit: They are an authorized dealer as well. Add 'electronics' to the name of the place to get to them online.

yes
It may be for HDTV displays, but I guess not for a defined PC resolution.
Most common: DLPs are 1280x720 - HDTV 720p. Now 1080p. Some older ones were either 1024x748 or 852x480.

There reason why there is no 1366x768 resolution output is because there is no standard for it (I don't think) like HDTV resolutions and PC resolutions, e.g. XGA, SXGA, etc. Also, many displays that are native 1366x768 do not accept that resolution as input. Some that do will only take 1360x768.

larry

Hi there,

I currently have a Denon 2910 (which I really love). But, I've become very interested in the new 3930ci. Looks like WXGA from this player (based on the above from you) is 1280x768. This is perfect for me since my new Mits WD2000U projector is a native 1280x768 display.

So...my assumption is that if I play a sDVD in the 3930ci, I'll be able to employ all the player's scaling and processing...and...I can set it to output WXGA (1280x768). Correct?

My mission is to bypass the projector's internal scaling (which is pretty inferior). If I send the signal via DVI and I set my pj to overscan 100% and "real" mode...it is "supposed" to accept a WXGA 1280x768 input directly and bypass it's internal scaling.

Marcus

The 1280x768 from the 3930 (or 2930) should work as long as your PJ accepts the WXGA resolution. Since they seem to "market" the player as a presentation device, I hope it doesn't assume that only PCs will be feeding it - i.e. hopefully it knows how to accept Studio RGB and not just PC RGB.

larry

What version of HDMI is present in these sets - can't find it anywhere. I know the 1930 is only 1.1 -- would hope the 2930/3930 are at least 1.2 -- also would have liked Ilink since I have the Pioneer 84TX but that's another story.

Got it yesterday! :D

Set it up last night and watched one movie and did a couple quick setting changes on my 50” Panny 8UK to adjust for contrast and pluge. No settings were changed in the player other than to get the D-Link to pass the signal (once a disc is in the tray… forget about changing a lot of things because they are ‘greyed-out’).

So, with all the default sound and video settings… this unit is simply amazing. From what I remember, and just what I did last night the 2930 sounds and looks better than my Pio 79avi (since I don't own it anymore, I can't A/B, and we know how listening and viewing memory fades rapidly...). The sound via D-link is superb; rich, textured, detailed, brilliant. The picture is incredibly… well… rich, textured, detailed and brilliant too! The colors are accurate, and there was no evidence of MB or jaggies or any other artifact. :D

The unit is connected via component. Tonight I’ll migrate it over to the HDMI.

Realize, of course that I have not run it through any serious or severe testing. I did watch a couple scenes from a couple of my favorite ‘test’ movies, as well as listen to some of my standard ‘test’ SACD and DVD-A’s. All were superbly rendered visually and sonically.

At this point I am completely happy and satisfied with this purchase. I am at work and have to work all day today and tomorrow (as well as most of next week), so I won’t get a chance to really put it through its paces until the Holiday weekend. I will not be looking for problems. I will only be calibrating it to its best possible picture and sound. :cool:

Thanks to those who purchased before me. And to all those waiting to buy… don’t.

Cheers.

shane

Edit: Just a quick word about the 'speed' of things. Commands and loading take a few seconds, but it's not horrible. Layer change was absolutely imperceptable in the movie we watched last night. More on this later.

General build impressions... very impressed. ;)

I've been wishwashing between the 3930, the 2930, the 3910, and even the Oppo 970. Something occured to me today that leads me to my question. While I have toyed with the idea of getting the Emotiva separates, concerns about the power consumption and the 30 year old wiring in my home hampering performance and a desire to try digital amplification will most likely lead me to go with a Panasonic digital reciever.

So, the question then vecomes, if I use the analog inputs on the Panny, it will have to use the A/Dcs on the inputs, so would the extra conversion negate any good I would get from the better audio section on the 3910 or 3930?

BTW, has anyone yet compared the audio performance of the 2930 and the 3910? How about the 2930 and the Oppo via HDMI with the new firmware?

Thanks,

Chris

I might get the DVD-2930 soon, but I am not sure if I will notice an improvement in picture quality over the Sony DVP-NS3100ES. I have the Sony DVP-NS3100ES hooked up to a 37 inch Sharp LCD TV.

has anyone yet compared the audio performance of the 2930 and the 3910?
The 2930 uses the same audio DACs as the 2910, and most people prefer the audio of the 3910 over the 2910 (assuming you're using the player's DACs).

I might get the DVD-2930 soon, but I am not sure if I will notice an improvement in picture quality over the Sony DVP-NS3100ES. I have the Sony DVP-NS3100ES hooked up to a 37 inch Sharp LCD TV.
In all honesty, I doubt you'll see a significant improvement on your 37" display. They are both excellent players.

What version of HDMI is present in these sets - can't find it anywhere. I know the 1930 is only 1.1 -- would hope the 2930/3930 are at least 1.2 -- also would have liked Ilink since I have the Pioneer 84TX but that's another story.
If it has HDMI 1.2 iLink won't offer any advantages over using the audio capabilities of the HDMI connection. Besides, I don't think you'll find Denon putting iLink on anything since they have their own Denonlink to push.

What version of HDMI is present in these sets - can't find it anywhere. I know the 1930 is only 1.1 -- would hope the 2930/3930 are at least 1.2 -- also would have liked Ilink since I have the Pioneer 84TX but that's another story.
1.1

1.1
Can any of them convert SACD DSD to PCM and send it out the HDMI output like the Oppo 970?

From skimming the 2930 manual online, it doesn't look like it. :(

The 2930 uses the same audio DACs as the 2910, and most people prefer the audio of the 3910 over the 2910 (assuming you're using the player's DACs).

They use the same DACs, but the 2930 has the AL24 processing, which some here have said helps to narrow the gap between it and the 3910/30.

If it has HDMI 1.2 iLink won't offer any advantages over using the audio capabilities of the HDMI connection. Besides, I don't think you'll find Denon putting iLink on anything since they have their own Denonlink to push.

They have it on the 4806 and 5805 but it will be interesting if they drop it from the models that replace them.

Bill

They have it on the 4806 and 5805 but it will be interesting if they drop it from the models that replace them.

Bill
I guess I should have clarified that I meant Denon's DVD players, not their receivers.

I used to think I needed a receiver with iLink so I could get that mythical reasonably priced universal transport with firewire output. However, now it's pretty clear that there isn't ever going to be a ~$200'ish UT with a firewire output. HDMI 1.2 looks like the way to go now. The Oppo 970 is darn close with it's HDMI 1.1 and DSD to PCM conversion.

One thing is certain... the 2930's AL24 Plus is incredible. Since the DAC's (by number at least) are the same in both the receiver and 2930, I shouldn't hear much difference, but I do, and it's palpable.

Music using the 2930's AL24 Plus processing is richer and fuller and more detailed. It is more present and forward. It is really remarkable.

I still haven't had time to move it from component to HDMI, and all my testing so far has been on the audio side. That said, I have watched another movie and got the same results. Incredible picture and absolutely NO detection of layer change! :D

I am thrilled with this unit so far. :D

shane

I'm going to be demo'ing another model this week. I'm going to spend quite a bit of time with it this go-around...I'll post more of my thoughts.

Hello all:
I've followed this complete thread in the last couple weeks and am pretty much convinced the 2930 is a great video/audio player. But I need help in deciding whether it is worth it for my system, since I'm planning a global update.
If I use an external video processor, such as the upcoming DVDO vp50 which I plan as a near future purchase, and my receiver has the same DACs as the 2930. as well as Al24 processing, and I use all-digital connections from the source, wouldn't I be neagting the processing power of the 2930? I know this to be so, so the question really is, in this case is it worth it to go w/ the 2930. or would I get similar results from the less-expensive 1930, since either of them will really have to do no video/audio processing at all?
Will sound be as good as from the 2930, if coming from the 1930 connected digitally to a Denon receiver w/ the same DACs and Al24? The way processing works, I think it should, but maybe I'm missing something that some of the experts here can explain. I know there are other variables such as build quality, but for $500 more? All opinions welcome and thanks in advance

Milton

Milton,
Audio-wise, you have to compare for yourself, if possible. There's so many things that contribute to how things sound. I don't recall if the 1930 does 480i via HDMI. If it does, then it is a candidate to connect to the VP50. If it does not do 480i via HDMI, you'll be wasting money. The 2930 for video is overkill also with the VP50 (unless its audio is something you have to have - you'll just waste the Reon chip). If you like how your receiver sounds, then just get a Oppo 970HD to connect to the VP50, that is unless you have to have DenonLink.

larry

Hello all:
I've followed this complete thread in the last couple weeks and am pretty much convinced the 2930 is a great video/audio player. But I need help in deciding whether it is worth it for my system, since I'm planning a global update.
If I use an external video processor, such as the upcoming DVDO vp50 which I plan as a near future purchase, and my receiver has the same DACs as the 2930. as well as Al24 processing, and I use all-digital connections from the source, wouldn't I be neagting the processing power of the 2930? I know this to be so, so the question really is, in this case is it worth it to go w/ the 2930. or would I get similar results from the less-expensive 1930, since either of them will really have to do no video/audio processing at all?
Will sound be as good as from the 2930, if coming from the 1930 connected digitally to a Denon receiver w/ the same DACs and Al24? The way processing works, I think it should, but maybe I'm missing something that some of the experts here can explain. I know there are other variables such as build quality, but for $500 more? All opinions welcome and thanks in advance

Milton
Here's what I said above... and a bit more. Even though my Denon 3805 has the 'same' DAC's as the 2930... and it has AL24 processing, the difference with the 2930, as compared to other DVD players (including the Pio 79avi) is tremendous. I attribute it to the fact that the 2930 has AL24 Processing *Plus*, which my receiver does not appear to have. I don’t know if it’s just the AL24 Plus or it added to other factors, but there is quite a difference in sound quality.

If yours is the 3805 (or similar) you WILL notice the difference… provided of course that your speakers will faithfully reproduce it and your room acoustics (etc.) will allow it.

shane

To larry and shane, thanks for the quick replys.

larry,
I completely understand and agree that in terms of video, the 2930 is overkill, I just need a good player that'll do 480i over HDMI. This is why I think the decision will be based more on audio.

shane,
from the post when you got your 2930 I understand that its hooked via component and D-link, and that you instantly heard a difference from your previous Pio. But in a later post you state that "the 2930's AL24 Plus is incredible", while admitting that the receiver and dvd DACs are the same, but the dvd has AL24+. Have you changed the hook-up method (gone analog for audio)? If not, even though I completely believe you when you say it sounds better, shouldn't the improved audio come from somewhere else than the player's AL24+? I thought it should not even be a factor if connected digitally, or am I mistaken? Thanks for your answer and clarifying this

Milton

Even though my Denon 3805 has the 'same' DAC's as the 2930... and it has AL24 processing, the difference with the 2930, as compared to other DVD players (including the Pio 79avi) is tremendous. I attribute it to the fact that the 2930 has AL24 Processing *Plus*, which my receiver does not appear to have. I don’t know if it’s just the AL24 Plus or it added to other factors, but there is quite a difference in sound quality.
shane
To take this line of reasoning one step further, if you've got the Denon AVR 3806 receiver, which has the same AL24 Processing *Plus" as the '2930, then would the upcoming DVD 3930, which has *Advanced" AL24 Processing, bring the audio quality up even another notch? And would this only occur when using the EXT. In inputs of the receiver?
Of course, this puts aside, for purposes of this discussion, whether the video output will be better on the 3930 than the 2930.

To larry and shane, thanks for the quick replys.

larry,
I completely understand and agree that in terms of video, the 2930 is overkill, I just need a good player that'll do 480i over HDMI. This is why I think the decision will be based more on audio.

shane,
from the post when you got your 2930 I understand that its hooked via component and D-link, and that you instantly heard a difference from your previous Pio. But in a later post you state that "the 2930's AL24 Plus is incredible", while admitting that the receiver and dvd DACs are the same, but the dvd has AL24+. Have you changed the hook-up method (gone analog for audio)? If not, even though I completely believe you when you say it sounds better, shouldn't the improved audio come from somewhere else than the player's AL24+? I thought it should not even be a factor if connected digitally, or am I mistaken? Thanks for your answer and clarifying this

Milton
Milton. You are correct. I am hooked-up via D-Link.
Now, I am no engineer, and I don't know if the AL24+ is applied before or after the DAC's. My assumption is that the AL24 is before the DAC's and is active and available through the D-Link.

If I'm wrong, and the AL24 is only available via the analog outs... then I can not imagine why this player sounds so good! I had the Pio 79avi, and hooked it up via both analog and Toslink and heard no difference (stereo 2-ch or 5.1 DD / DTS). The difference with the 2930 is so noticeable that my wife picked up on it!

I have not hooked it up via analog yet, but might this weekend. I have seen no reason to do so as I'm completely satisfied by the sound via D-Link.

Again I don't know if it's the AL24+... I just made that assumption. :o
Maybe someone else has an explanation.

shane

s2silber:

I guess our doubts are the same, whether any advantage in the players processing, whether Al24, +, or Advanced, should be a factor in the final sound, everything else being equal (receiver, speakers, room). From what I know of digital connections, it shouln't be a factor. Shane also states that he thinks other factors are involved, and I think this to be the case as well, just trying to get to what those other factors could be and thether they are worth the price difference.

Maybe there is something else in the player that, even though connected digitally, makes is sound better than other players such as the 1930, which was my first question. I also understand that the 1930 might not even offer this connecting option (d-link) thus making the decision to go 2930 simpler.

shane

you got your last post in before i finished writing mine. I agree with you, and the explanation for the difference in sound quality is what I'm looking for. I'll also wait for the other experts. Thanks again

milton

s2silber:

I guess our doubts are the same, whether any advantage in the players processing, whether Al24, +, or Advanced, should be a factor in the final sound, everything else being equal (receiver, speakers, room). From what I know of digital connections, it shouln't be a factor. Shane also states that he thinks other factors are involved, and I think this to be the case as well, just trying to get to what those other factors could be and thether they are worth the price difference.

Maybe there is something else in the player that, even though connected digitally, makes is sound better than other players such as the 1930, which was my first question. I also understand that the 1930 might not even offer this connecting option (d-link) thus making the decision to go 2930 simpler.

Milton... I may, in addition to checking the analog output from this player, also hook it up with Toslink to see if there is maybe something special about the way the signal is dealt with via D-link... though I can't imagine what that might be.

shane

In part answering my own question, I guess part of the price difference also comes as way of functionality. Since each of my sources will have to go to 2 separate processors as soon as I get an external video processor, which cables and connections are available in each player are of utmost importance. Since the sole HDMI output in each player would definitely go to the video processor, what then to feed the receiver for DVD-A/SACD? W/ the 1930, I would have to go analog, where the 2930 is clearly better. If I wanted to keep things digital, the only other connection available for the SACD is the d-link, and the 1930 does not even have it. So if I want to go Denon on my next player, it definitely must be the 2930. I would still love to know, as shane asked, whether d-link supports the AL24+ in the player or not, and defaults to the receiver, as I suspect.

I believe the difference between the "plus" and the standard is applying AL24 processing to multi-channel DVD-As as well as 2-channel PCM. All AL24 processing up-converts any PCM to 24bit-196kHz.

As far as I know AL24 processing does not get transmitted digitally. You can check the on- screen displays of your 3805/3806 to see what type of digital bit stream is coming into your receiver. Chances are it will be the native resolution of the disk.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "plus" and the "standard" AL24 processing, but the DVD 3930 has something called "Advanced" AL24 processing, which is, supposedly, yet another improvement over the "AL24 Plus" processing. So, again, the question is whether one would hear the advantages of that when using DenonLink, or would it only come into play when using the Ext. In inputs on a Denon receiver?

Well I have the post-ridiculously-expensive a/v gear purchase buzz so I thought I'd share my joy (and look for a little reassurance!). I just called up my local Denon dealer and pre-ordered a 3930. They have a 30 month no interest financing deal going on now so I figure across two and a half years it shouldn't hurt too bad =). They're supposed to be in on the 16th so I'll be sure to share my impressions.

I am thinking that since it talks about analog waveform reproduction technology, and supressing quantization noise in D/A conversion, it would only come into effect if you used the analog out. If you used Denonlink then the receiver would have to do the AL24 processing.

I am in a quandry myself over 5.1 analog out to the receiver or Denonlink to the receiver. I like what the Audyssey setup did with my system, and I don't want to loose that. Unfortunately, I am pretty sure that the 5.1 external in bypasses Audyseey so while I would get AL24 processing, and be using the (marginaly) better DACs in the 3930, I would be missing out on the adjustments that Audyssey makes. Sort of a tough decision. The thing is, I am pretty sure that Audyseey is applied to other analog sources, jut not the multichannel in. I suppose they figured that is for use by "purists" anyway. Would have been nice to have a choice though.

Ruin

The thing is, I am pretty sure that Audyseey is applied to other analog sources, just not the multichannel in.
How about the CD analog stereo connections? I know Audyssey is applied there, but which DAC's would be used...the player's or the receiver's?

How about the CD analog stereo connections? I know Audyssey is applied there, but which DAC's would be used...the player's or the receiver's?
Both...

...and what's the effect of doing that? Seems like more digital-analog conversion than one needs. Or is there some compensating benefit?

...and what's the effect of doing that? Seems like more digital-analog conversion than one needs. Or is there some compensating benefit?
It is 1 more than it needs, which is why you should hook up the player digitally...

Ouch. The Crutchfield site now shows an estimated arrival date for the 3930 of 10/13/06.

Crutchfield is definitely struggling with supply issues as the estimated date for the 2930 is pushed back to 9/8/2006.

Oh well. I'll be picking up my 2930 unit tonight.

Ouch. The Crutchfield site now shows an estimated arrival date for the 3930 of 10/13/06.
That's got to be just Crutchfield. I checked with Tweeter in Danbury, CT, last week and they're expecting them at their main warehouse on Sept. 10.

Crutchfield is definitely struggling with supply issues as the estimated date for the 2930 is pushed back to 9/8/2006.

Oh well. I'll be picking up my 2930 unit tonight.
That's why I went with ABT. Great service, same price, same guarantee, and it's an authorized dealer.

Oh, and it's in stock.

They shipped it (free) to me the same day I ordered it.

shane

That's why I went with ABT. Great service, same price, same guarantee, and it's an authorized dealer.

Oh, and it's in stock.

They shipped it (free) to me the same day I ordered it.

shane

And, that's why I went with ABT. ;)

FWIW the faceplate on my 3805 says "AL 24 Processing Plus"

Also - any indication that the 2930 will be available in Silver? (Can't STAND black!!) :-)

Craig

I was under the impression that Denon was dropping silver. I beleive the entire new line is available only in black.

Ruin

Not in Europe or Japan where silver continues being a strong value.

cheers

Also - any indication that the 2930 will be available in Silver? (Can't STAND black!!) :-)

I e-mailed Denon last week asking about silver in the 2930 or 3930 and the reply was "at this time it looks like no, but anything is possible"

Hey !!

In europe it will be in silver and premium silver to match top Av-recievers.
I am just wondering why in States black is so popular. It just looks bad, you can see all the fingerprints, dust, dirt, scratches and looks cheap. i see Denon , marantz, pioneer they all to hi-fi there in black why ???

Hey !!

In europe it will be in silver and premium silver to match top Av-recievers.
I am just wondering why in States black is so popular. It just looks bad, you can see all the fingerprints, dust, dirt, scratches and looks cheap. i see Denon , marantz, pioneer they all to hi-fi there in black why ???

'Cause black is beautiful man.................. :D

Hey !!

In europe it will be in silver and premium silver to match top Av-recievers.
I am just wondering why in States black is so popular. It just looks bad, you can see all the fingerprints, dust, dirt, scratches and looks cheap. i see Denon , marantz, pioneer they all to hi-fi there in black why ???

It runs in cycles. Silver will be back one day...

Hey !!

In europe it will be in silver and premium silver to match top Av-recievers.
I am just wondering why in States black is so popular. It just looks bad, you can see all the fingerprints, dust, dirt, scratches and looks cheap. i see Denon , marantz, pioneer they all to hi-fi there in black why ???

Here in the states, back in the 70's & early 80's it was actually wood veneer! My dad still has a super old Pioneer stereo (doesnt use it obviously) that has wood veneer and a silver front. Then they kind of dropped the wood portion and were all silver for a while. Then they went to black for a long time. They tried silver again here over the past 4 or 5 years, but most people dont seem to like it. It doesn't "disappear" as well in dark rooms.

The black equipment doesn't look cheap at all. Equipment with brushed aluminum bezels are all the rage here. The only company that SERIOUSLY pushed Silver here was Sony, and now they've gone back to black. Thats not saying much because Sony is well known for making all the wrong decisions :). A/V equipment is pretty much all black again. Some companies offered silver alternatives for a while as well (silver versions of the black stuff), but thats seems to be on the decline too.

Of course there are a lot of silver plasmas and TVs.

I hear in Japan GOLD is all the rage... ugh... nobody has DARED try that in the US :).

Oh yes in Japan is all not Gold but Champange Gold :D
Well I think that it' s all coming to personal taste really. For me silver looks like solid piece of metal but black looks to me like plastic box . I know it might be black brushed aluminium but silver looks more valuable in my eyes :)
I have seen some chinese hi-fi gear finished in wood and it was looking awesome !!

I think Marantz has some specialty 2 channel stuff in the U.S. in champagne gold. :)

I hear in Japan GOLD is all the rage... ugh... nobody has DARED try that in the US :).

When I was a kid (was born in '76), my dad had an onkyo stereo receiver that was Gold. I thought it was ugly then. It still is ugly in my memory of it.

Has anyone compared the AL24 audio with a nice external DAC like the Bel Canto or Benchmark?

Thanks,
Wes

It runs in cycles. Silver will be back one day...Aside from the Denon componetns in Silver, my Lexicon MC-8 has a silver front panel as does my LG LST-3410a and my Panasonic E80H DVD recorder, so my rack is a nice mix of colors. :D

Then again, nothing will ever match this:

http://www.gefen.com/images/4x1hdmiswitcherfront.jpg

(Really, what is Gefen thinking with that, other than "this will be hidden in the back of a rack somewhere"?!?! The design alone vetoed their switcher from consideration in my case…)

Has anyone compared the AL24 audio with a nice external DAC like the Bel Canto or Benchmark?

Thanks,
Wes

I have a 3805 and a Benchmark DAC-1. I am currently using an Integra DPS-8.3 CD/DVD player as my source. (Good possibility this will be replaced by 3930!) On RBCD, the Benchmark does a better job than the 3805. Using the 3805 on HDCD and comparing it to the Benchmark, there is no noticeable difference in sound quality to my ears. My system is very revealing of differences if they truly exist (Linkwitz Orion).

So my system is configured as follows:
RBCD - Coax digital to Benchmark with analog output to CD analog in on the 3805.
HDCD - Toslink to 3805, Source selection on 3805 set to DVD.
SACD - Analog Multichannel out from Integra to Ext. In on the 3805.

Of course, YMMV.
Jeff

How about the CD analog stereo connections? I know Audyssey is applied there, but which DAC's would be used...the player's or the receiver's?

If you set your receiver to direct/pure direct you get no A/D D/A conversion in the receiver, just pure analog (i.e. no Audyssey EQ). In this case you use only the player's DACs.

Thanks. But I take it you do get the "double conversion" to which you refer in "Stereo" mode from the CD inputs, meaning the subwoofer won't be applied?
Also, when using the stereo CD inputs in Direct/Pure Direct mode, does SACD stay in DSD mode or is it converted to PCM?

Has anyone compared the AL24 audio with a nice external DAC like the Bel Canto or Benchmark?

Thanks,
Wes

A top quality DAC will smoke the stock Denon players.

The new Stello DA220 MKII DAC really kicks a55,

I heard it at a Head-Fi meet in LA,
and it handily beat a Meridian G08 ($4000+) we compared it to.

I just got my 3910 modded by SACDmods.com, this mod alone will get you
into the >$5K territory for sound quality, assuming the rest of your system is up to snuff.

Thanks. But I take it you do get the "double conversion" to which you refer in "Stereo" mode from the CD inputs, meaning the subwoofer won't be applied?
Also, when using the stereo CD inputs in Direct/Pure Direct mode, does SACD stay in DSD mode or is it converted to PCM?

I stereo mode you do, if you have a sub selected, or any EQ, or tone controls.

For SACD, you stay in pure DSD, if you set your receiver to direct mode, and you do not select any EQ, or tone controls.

Does anyone know if the DVD-2930CI can be made multiregion via the remote or any other way (without hardware modification)?

I ordered my 2930 last night. Should be here in the next few days, I suspect. I can't wait to get it!

I'll post my opinions as soon as I give it a good run-through.

It's my first SACD player, so it'll be a treat I'm sure!

-DD

Damn quote function won't work. :confused:

Anyway, that's what I figured about the Denon DAC's. I'll hang onto my Rotel 1072 & Bel Canto DAC2 for a bit longer.

Wes

Has anyone had issues playing burned media on their 2930CI? I've posted a detailed thread on my issues here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=717926

Thanks.

I spent quite a bit of time tonight A/B'ing the 2930ci against the Toshiba HD-A1 tonight. Of course, each player was calibrated accordingly (fully calibrated and ISF'd 57" Sony CRT RPTV via 1080i HDMI...10 foot viewing distance).

While the Toshiba is maybe a hair sharper, the 2930 is superior in just about every other way.

While most of my comparisons involved film-based material, it was still evident how superior the deinterlacing of the 2930 was in comparison. Edges of objects were smoother and the overall image had more finesse, was cleaner, and had a greater filmlike look to it. In addition, color rendition was a bit better and the picture was just more dynamic. Detail particulary in shadows stood out more, as well.

On test patterns and reference patterns (which include Avia moving zone plates and the HQV disc) the 2930 exceeded in every case. Resolution detail on the Avia 100 and 200 Mhz patterns were pretty close with the 2930 showing just a very slight amount more line resolution...but it was very close. As far as deinterlacing tests, no comparison at all. Even on the Avia moving zone plate, this was quite evident as there was much less jitter with the 2930. On the HQV color swatch (on the first test pattern) really showed a greater or broader range compared to the Toshiba. This is not surprising since I noticed a bit more dynamic colors with the 2930. Of course, one would expect the 2930 to do well with the HQV tests, but I think it still says something about the player.

I'm also curious to experiment a little with some of the custom settings of the 2930. I'm not sure if they really offer any benefit (nor are even necessary given the quality of the image with none of them activated).

It always bothers me that when people compare digital output from DVD players that they see a difference in "color" in a subjective way. I'm not saying that people don't see a difference, it's more like "why is there a difference?", especially with proper calibration. With all processing kept in the digital domain, color encoded on the disc should be what is sent to the display (and allowing for interpolation, etc., during deinterlacing and scaling). If "color" looks different between two players, then one of them is doing something wrong (or both are wrong, but how can you determine?) Or, most likely, other video processing is taking place that changes what's on the disc. Most players have adjustments for color related things and it's problaby doubtful that they are completely "off" when set in a neutral position.

larry

It always bothers me that when people compare digital output from DVD players that they see a difference in "color" in a subjective way.

I (and a few friends of mine) see a "color" difference between a Denon 5900 and a Pio 59avi. The "style" is different. why is it so ? As you say it:


Or, most likely, other video processing is taking place that changes what's on the disc.

absolutely. I believe each has its own color processing/optimizing circuit and that leads to the difference. I think this is not something you can "neutralize" by adjusting the color settings of a player/display. In other words all we see after a player is always after more processing than we thought. It's not as simple as "straight off the disc", especially for higher end players. They tend to add more processing/optimization in every stage.

I spent quite a bit of time tonight A/B'ing the 2930ci against the Toshiba HD-A1 tonight. Of course, each player was calibrated accordingly (fully calibrated and ISF'd 57" Sony CRT RPTV via 1080i HDMI...10 foot viewing distance).

While the Toshiba is maybe a hair sharper, the 2930 is superior in just about every other way.

While most of my comparisons involved film-based material, it was still evident how superior the deinterlacing of the 2930 was in comparison.
Thanks for the post. I can only imagine how great the 3930 will be.

I (and a few friends of mine) see a "color" difference between a Denon 5900 and a Pio 59avi. The "style" is different. why is it so ? As you say it:



absolutely. I believe each has its own color processing/optimizing circuit and that leads to the difference. I think this is not something you can "neutralize" by adjusting the color settings of a player/display. In other words all we see after a player is always after more processing than we thought. It's not as simple as "straight off the disc", especially for higher end players. They tend to add more processing/optimization in every stage. The reason why purists still go the SDI route to a scaler. :) One of these days... Although I guess minor color "tweeking" is the least of the problems a player can have.

larry

I have a question - Which is preferred, RGB or Y Pb Pr ?

I have a question - Which is preferred, RGB or Y Pb Pr ?

For my display it's RGB. There is an "auto" selection in set-up which should automatically match what's ideal for the display.

Thanks for the post. I can only imagine how great the 3930 will be.

It will be interesting to see how much better the 3930 is than the 2930 for film-based DVD. Part of me wonders if I should wait for the 3930 and see how it compares before making a final decision. However, I can't justify spending nearly $600 more for the 3930 if it's only slightly better (audio doesn't matter to me).
My guess at this point is that they will be fairly close (closer than the 2910 and 3910 were) simply because both offer 10 bit processing and the 2930 deinterlacing passes all of the HQV tests...I just wonder "how much" better it can really get and whether that slight improvement is really worth it (to me, anyway).

Now, if the 3930 really happens to be that much better...well, I have some thinking to do. :)

It will be interesting to see how much better the 3930 is than the 2930 for film-based DVD. Part of me wonders if I should wait for the 3930 and see how it compares before making a final decision. However, I can't justify spending nearly $600 more for the 3930 if it's only slightly better (audio doesn't matter to me).
My guess at this point is that they will be fairly close (closer than the 2910 and 3910 were) simply because both offer 10 bit processing and the 2930 deinterlacing passes all of the HQV tests...I just wonder "how much" better it can really get and whether that slight improvement is really worth it (to me, anyway).

Now, if the 3930 really happens to be that much better...well, I have some thinking to do. :)

I'm in the same boat. Have been planning on the 3930 but if the 2930 is that close......

Neither have shown up here in Canada yet, despite what I was told by Denon themselves (mid August for both)

It will be interesting to see how much better the 3930 is than the 2930 for film-based DVD. Part of me wonders if I should wait for the 3930 and see how it compares before making a final decision. However, I can't justify spending nearly $600 more for the 3930 if it's only slightly better (audio doesn't matter to me).
My guess at this point is that they will be fairly close (closer than the 2910 and 3910 were) simply because both offer 10 bit processing and the 2930 deinterlacing passes all of the HQV tests...I just wonder "how much" better it can really get and whether that slight improvement is really worth it (to me, anyway).

Now, if the 3930 really happens to be that much better...well, I have some thinking to do. :)
Well, the 3930 should match the 5910 for video (same chip), which Kris Deering has said is the best he has seen up to now, so IMO it will be better than the 2930. Of course, we'll just have to wait and see.

Well, the 3930 should match the 5910 for video (same chip), which Kris Deering has said is the best he has seen up to now, so IMO it will be better than the 2930. Of course, we'll just have to wait and see.Well it uses the same deinterlacer as the 5910 but not the same scaler chip - the 5910 uses a DVDO scaling chip (IIRC) but the 3930 is going to use the Realta chip for both deinterlacing and scaling. General consensus is that the Realta chip deinterlacing performance varies somewhat depending on what other duties the chip is performing so taxing it harder by having it also process scaling algorithms may degrade deinterlacing and/or noise reduction. I suspect Denon used the DVDO scaling chip in the 5910 to get the best PQ possible but since the 3930 doesn't use that chip we'll just have to wait and see what difference it makes.

It will be interesting to see how much better the 3930 is than the 2930 for film-based DVD. Part of me wonders if I should wait for the 3930 and see how it compares before making a final decision. However, I can't justify spending nearly $600 more for the 3930 if it's only slightly better (audio doesn't matter to me).
My guess at this point is that they will be fairly close (closer than the 2910 and 3910 were) simply because both offer 10 bit processing and the 2930 deinterlacing passes all of the HQV tests...I just wonder "how much" better it can really get and whether that slight improvement is really worth it (to me, anyway).

Now, if the 3930 really happens to be that much better...well, I have some thinking to do. :)

I guess one question is if the Realta and Reon chips are so similar and produce similar video quality, why did Denon decide to go with the Realta for the 3930ci? Especially if the main difference between it and the 2930ci is better sound quality?

Hope we can get a shootout between the two real soon.....

Is it yet known for certain if the 3930 supports 480i over HDMI?

I have read through this thread and although I noticed a couple posts claim the 3930 provides 480i over HDMI, haven’t seen a reverence that supports that fact.

My main interest in a new 2930 or 3930 is primarily audio (SACD DVD-A and HDCD), and I have external scaling options so I’m interested in what audio advantages the 3930 has over the 2930 yet still require a player that supports 480i over HDMI.

Is it yet known for certain if the 3930 supports 480i over HDMI?

I have read through this thread and although I noticed a couple posts claim the 3930 provides 480i over HDMI, haven’t seen a reverence that supports that fact.

My main interest in a new 2930 or 3930 is primarily audio (SACD DVD-A and HDCD), and I have external scaling options so I’m interested in what audio advantages the 3930 has over the 2930 yet still require a player that supports 480i over HDMI.

See the product sheets at the Denon site for confirmation. :)

I have a question - Which is preferred, RGB or Y Pb Pr ? DVDs are encoded in YCbCr which when converted to analog is YPbPr - component output. Converting YCbCr 4:4:4 to RGB 4:4:4 is a simple transform so either format is fine. When you go to 10bit digital output, however, YCbCr 4:2:2 is (presently) your only option.

larry

DVDs are encoded in YCbCr which when converted to analog is YPbPr - component output. Converting YCbCr 4:4:4 to RGB 4:4:4 is a simple transform so either format is fine. When you go to 10bit digital output, however, YCbCr 4:2:2 is (presently) your only option.

larry

So, in order to take advantage of the player's 10 bit processing, YCbCr is required to be set? Or, am I still getting that 10 bit advantage somehow by going with RGB? As mentioned, if I use the "auto" option on the player, it selects RGB at my display's maximum resolution (1080i). Of course, "auto" features are not always choosing the optimal solution.

The line stating 480i over HDMI was just added in the update.

Now all I need to consider are the audio advantages.


See the product sheets at the Denon site for confirmation. :)

Well it uses the same deinterlacer as the 5910 but not the same scaler chip - the 5910 uses a DVDO scaling chip (IIRC) but the 3930 is going to use the Realta chip for both deinterlacing and scaling. General consensus is that the Realta chip deinterlacing performance varies somewhat depending on what other duties the chip is performing so taxing it harder by having it also process scaling algorithms may degrade deinterlacing and/or noise reduction. I suspect Denon used the DVDO scaling chip in the 5910 to get the best PQ possible but since the 3930 doesn't use that chip we'll just have to wait and see what difference it makes.
The product sheets for the 3930 and 2930 have been updated to state that both units use the Silicon Optix chips for scaling. Given the greater flexibility of the Realta chip vs. the Reon, I wonder if the 3930 is used for deinterlacing only, can the user enable higher levels of noise reduction and image enhancement? I wish Kris Deering would give us a hint as to when he'll get his reviews out. Would love to see a comparison of the two.

The product sheets for the 3930 and 2930 have been updated to state that both units use the Silicon Optix chips for scaling. Given the greater flexibility of the Realta chip vs. the Reon, I wonder if the 3930 is used for deinterlacing only, can the user enable higher levels of noise reduction and image enhancement? I wish Kris Deering would give us a hint as to when he'll get his reviews out. Would love to see a comparison of the two.

If only they would get to HD DVD to justify the price.

hi, im little confused about the ntsc and pal. i realize that you set (using the video setup menu) if your tv is either pal or ntsc. what i would like to know is this: if your tv is ntsc but you have a pal disc, will it play it properly? i guess this equates to whether or not the player actually can convert ntsc to pal and pal to ntsc. can anyone clarify this for me? thanks.

So, in order to take advantage of the player's 10 bit processing, YCbCr is required to be set? Or, am I still getting that 10 bit advantage somehow by going with RGB? As mentioned, if I use the "auto" option on the player, it selects RGB at my display's maximum resolution (1080i). Of course, "auto" features are not always choosing the optimal solution. With HDMI you can only send 10bit (or 12bit) video using YCbCr 4:2:2. You can only send 24 bits worth of video data per clock period. So you can send 10bits (or 12bits) of Y and half the CrCb each clock period and not lose information. 4:2:2 means that the CbCr is only sent every other Y value (i.e for every 4 Y's there's only 2 Cb's and 2 Cr's.) RGB is 4:4:4 which limits it to 8bit (24 bits total). 10bit would mean having to send 30bits every clock period which HDMI can not do. Same goes for YCbCr 4:4:4. If the player feeds 10bit YCbCr 4:4:4 to the video DAC, then you can get 10bit resolution via component output.

larry

With HDMI you can only send 10bit (or 12bit) video using YCbCr 4:2:2. You can only send 24 bits worth of video data per clock period. So you can send 10bits (or 12bits) of Y and half the CrCb each clock period and not lose information. 4:2:2 means that the CbCr is only sent every other Y value (i.e for every 4 Y's there's only 2 Cb's and 2 Cr's.) RGB is 4:4:4 which limits it to 8bit (24 bits total). 10bit would mean having to send 30bits every clock period which HDMI can not do. Same goes for YCbCr 4:4:4. If the player feeds 10bit YCbCr 4:4:4 to the video DAC, then you can get 10bit resolution via component output.

larry

Thanks for the explanation, Larry.

Tonight, I went ahead and started using YCbCr 4:2:2. In order to avoid black and white clipping, I had to set the player's internal contrast to -1 and brightness to +1 in this mode (didn't have to do it with RGB). As I did so, I had to adjust my display's contrast and brightness, of course. But, something interesting for the better changed as a result of this. In the past, using DVE for brightness (no matter which DVD player I used), I had to make the BTB bar very slightly appear in order to get the bar just above black to show (a floating black issue). However, using YCbCr 4:2:2 with the mentioned contrast/brightness settings allows me to know show the bar just above black WITHOUT showing the BTB. Black levels are better, overall, using YCbCr 4:2:2.

In addition, last night I watched Harry Potter at RGB. Tonight, I popped it in to watch 10-15 minutes of it in YCbCr 4:2:2. The image just seems a bit sharper and cleaner. Again, maybe this is because of the overall better blacks.....or part psychological....or the benefits of 10 bit processing. Or, maybe all three. :)

Remember, changing the player's setting means you are changing the video coming from the disc. After making the changes, the BTB bar may not be BTB anymore when coming from the player, it may have been raised to "just" black. However, something like that is not as disruptive as PC video range coming out and you'll probably never notice any difference. I just picked up the GetGray (AVS member) Calibration disc yesterday and it has 2 levels BTB and nice calibration patterns for blacks and whites.

larry

Interesting. There is a "black level" setting on the player, in addition to "brightness." I wonder if it's in regards to what you're saying.

So, to be "safe" for now until my ISF calibrator comes back out this fall, should I just let the player clip white and black with YCbCr 4:2:2 or revert back to RBG where there is no clipping. Again, I'd like to take advtantage of the 10 bit processing.

In the german site, the 3930 manual is avaliable since yesterday. Does somebody know if it is avaliable anywhere in english?

cheers

DavidHir.
You are using the HDMI output at... 480p?

I have been using Component, but did HDMI tests over the weekend. With my Panny 50-8UK, 480p is the only way to go. The Panny does not accept 480i, and 720 and 1080 resolutions are awful! It didn't seem to matter much between RGB and YCbCr at that rate, but YCbCr was a bit better, so that's where I'll eventually end up.

The overall impression is that the image produced by the HDMI (YCbCr @ 480p)output was much 'cleaner' than that of the Component, and this was most evident in the edging effects. There seemed to be almost no edge 'ghosting' (for lack of a better description) with HDMI, but there was with Component.

I did find Component to be the slightest bit sharper, but so close that at normal viewing distance it is a wash. It's the cleanness of the HDMI signal as well as the purity of the colors and tones that pushed me to order a new HDMI board for the monitor. Won't get it for a couple weeks though.

shane

DavidHir.
You are using the HDMI output at... 480p?

I have been using Component, but did HDMI tests over the weekend. With my Panny 50-8UK, 480p is the only way to go. The Panny does not accept 480i, and 720 and 1080 resolutions are awful! It didn't seem to matter much between RGB and YCbCr at that rate, but YCbCr was a bit better, so that's where I'll eventually end up.

The overall impression is that the image produced by the HDMI (YCbCr @ 480p)output was much 'cleaner' than that of the Component, and this was most evident in the edging effects. There seemed to be almost no edge 'ghosting' (for lack of a better description) with HDMI, but there was with Component.

I did find Component to be the slightest bit sharper, but so close that at normal viewing distance it is a wash. It's the cleanness of the HDMI signal as well as the purity of the colors and tones that pushed me to order a new HDMI board for the monitor. Won't get it for a couple weeks though.

shane

Shane,

I've used 480p component and it's absolutely outstanding. Very (natural..no EE) sharp and detailed. However, since I have a CRT RPTV, I can see scanlines sometimes at 480 and that annoys me. When I upscale to 1080i, the scanlines are invisible...but the image is a bit softer. It still looks very good, but it's not quite as sharp. This has been the case with every upscaling player I've ever tried (even the 3910). 480p always gives me the sharpest image, but those damn scanlines can be visible so it's a bit of a compromise.

I have not compared 480p component to 480p HDMI yet. With past players, component seemed a tad better. HDMI still looks veyr good though.

1080i via HDMI still looks very, very good (and no scanlines visible).

Shane,

I've used 480p component and it's absolutely outstanding. Very (natural..no EE) sharp and detailed. However, since I have a CRT RPTV, I can see scanlines sometimes at 480 and that annoys me. When I upscale to 1080i, the scanlines are invisible...but the image is a bit softer. It still looks very good, but it's not quite as sharp. This has been the case with every upscaling player I've ever tried (even the 3910). 480p always gives me the sharpest image, but those damn scanlines can be visible so it's a bit of a compromise.

I have not compared 480p component to 480p HDMI yet. With past players, component seemed a tad better. HDMI still looks veyr good though.

1080i via HDMI still looks very, very good (and no scanlines visible).
Absolutely correct... 480p over Component IS outstanding. The image/PQ is only minutely better with HDMI, but as I said, it may be the tiniest bit softer. The EE that I did notice was very subtle, and I was looking hard for any differences between the two. My guess is that in normal viewing, the majority (and maybe even myself) would never notice the difference.

On my PDP I have no scan lines, so no issues there. I was actually surprised how inferior the image is when upscaled.

In all honesty... I have been blown away by the 2930. Its PQ is fantastic, no layer change has ever been noticed, the sound quality is outstanding. All good so far! :D

shane

Shane,

Have you calibrated and turned off the display's internal EE settings? That should get rid any trace of EE.

Shane,

Have you calibrated and turned off the display's internal EE settings? That should get rid any trace of EE.
ISF calibration, no.
Self 'calibration' with DVE and Avia. I don't know exactly which adjustment would remove EE other than 'Sharpness', and yes, it has been adjusted to the best setting of lowest EE without overly softening the image.

Know of another?

shane

I need some expert advice.

I have been excitedly waiting for my unit to arrive...which it did today. But, I am wholeheartedly 100% disappointed. I'm very sad right now.

Please, help me here. Are these problems just the nature of the player, or do I have a seriously bad unit?

Here's the problems:

*1Load times are horrendous. It's like it can't find what it's looking for. You can hear it scanning the disk and saying "loading" before it eventually loads (if it loads at all...)

*2 Unit will NOT, I repeat WILL NOT load a single DVD-A disk I put in there. After some painful "loading" it eventually recognizes it as, and displays, DVD Audio. but, then it just stops. If you do nothing it stay's stopped. If you hit play again, it locks up. Dead. Have to power off to get the disk out.

*3 Unit will only occasionally (and by occasionally, I mean somewhere around 5% of the time) pick up the SACD layer of hybrid SACD disks. MOST of the time it will read "loading" and you wait and wait and eventually it says CD. WHAT!? WHY?!

*4 If you get it to load an SACD as an SACD, and you try and skip a track about 50% of the time it gets stuck. You have to hit BACK and then SKIP again and hope it finds it that time.

*5 Skipping through a CD never causes a problem, but it's way slower.

*6 Like someone else posted a few spots up: this unit has a PROBLEM with Burned media. I can get burned media to load and play (sort of), but it's choppy and the sound skips. I've tried various media and 3 burners. It's safe to say it's not the media or burners. It's also safe to say this player can not play burned media.

The plus? Well, it was my first time hearing what SACD can do and I'm simply amazed. It sounds so good. My CD's sound better too. I noticed immediately that a note played on a piano seemed to hold on and fade out so much longer and more smoothly. So, it seems my problems are with media detection and loading.

My unit says it was built in May of 2006. Did I get a bad one? Did I get an older one? What do you experts think? Please help. To me, this is a LOOOOT of money, and I feel so depressed about spending it now. I begged the wife to let me get it and she was right - we should have put it towards the new baby coming next month. OUCH!

Thanks!

P.S. My unit says manufactured May 2006. When was everyone elses made?

Please, help me here. Are these problems just the nature of the player, or do I have a seriously bad unit?
Thanks!

It definitely sounds like a defective unit - probably has a bad drive unit.

Get it changed as soon as possible!

ISF calibration, no.
Self 'calibration' with DVE and Avia. I don't know exactly which adjustment would remove EE other than 'Sharpness', and yes, it has been adjusted to the best setting of lowest EE without overly softening the image.

Know of another?

shane Is this "EE" via component or HDMI or both? How close did you have to get to see it? Was it only on horizontal lines or vertical lines or everything? Also, I can't tell from your pic what kind of plasma you have. One thing you have to do is make sure you turn off any and all "automatic" picture features and NR in the display. Turn off any sort of "orbiter" or pixel mover that supposedly helps prevent burn-in - they don't really work that well for the typical "stupid" causes for burnin and plasmas don't get burn in unless you do something "stupid" - like leave a computer desktop on with no screen saver for a day or two. :)

larry

Is this "EE" via component or HDMI or both? How close did you have to get to see it? Was it only on horizontal lines or vertical lines or everything? Also, I can't tell from your pic what kind of plasma you have. One thing you have to do is make sure you turn off any and all "automatic" picture features and NR in the display. Turn off any sort of "orbiter" or pixel mover that supposedly helps prevent burn-in - they don't really work that well for the typical "stupid" causes for burnin and plasmas don't get burn in unless you do something "stupid" - like leave a computer desktop on with no screen saver for a day or two. :)

larry
Ok... wait.
First, I was never complaining about any EE. As I said, I was simply comparing HDMI to Component and was LOOKING for ANY type of difference. I saw that the Component image had the tiniest bit of EE. From a normal viewing distance (6+ feet) I can not see it.

Second... all auto bullcr@p has been shut off on the panel. No screen-saving orbiting or any auto anything... none.

As I've said, I have a Panny 50" 8UK. I'm using very good cables and I was being exceedingly nit-picky about the differences between the two modes of signal transfer only so that I would wind-up with the best of the two (and the differences were miniscule!). I was looking VERY hard for any artifacting or image anomalys. I had to look very hard to find these tiny traces of EE.

I need at this point to repeat that this unit produces the best image of any DVD player I've ever had, and that includes the Pio 79avi. I love this player. No complaints... zero, nada!

As for all the griping about incompatibility and inability of this unit to play various types of discs... see my post on the other thread about this. No problems. None, nada!

No SACD's, DVD-A's, DVD-R's DVD+R's... none have failed so far. Various brands. Various types of music. Dual discs? No problem.

I'm really sorry that others are having a problem with this unit. I am currently not, and I hope that I never do. :D

Best of luck to all!

shane

Ok... wait.
...
As for all the griping about incompatibility and inability of this unit to play various types of discs... see my post on the other thread about this. No problems. None, nada!

No SACD's, DVD-A's, DVD-R's DVD+R's... none have failed so far. Various brands. Various types of music. Dual discs? No problem.

I'm really sorry that others are having a problem with this unit. I am currently not, and I hope that I never do. :D

Best of luck to all!

shane

I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm griping. I guess my post last night may have had a little too much emotional influence. It's just that I've been so excited to get the unit, I spent WAY more than I could afford on it, and when it gets here it's riddled with problems. I just need to know if these problems are typical and I was just unaware, or if they are a result of some assignable cause. What is indeed causing the behavior I am experiencing.

I can NOT get DVD-A to play at all. You are saying you can? I presume you have preference set to "audio" for DVD's, right?

I can almost NEVER get the unit to pick the SACD layer of SACD's. It only finds the CD layer. Are you saying you never have this problem?

Can you tell me when your unit was made? Mine says May 2006. I wonder if it's an early-build issue (which would explain short supplies at launch).

Again, sorry for sounding like I was griping. I just had (and still have) such HIGH expectations for this unit and I've been tremendously let down. I already had buyers guilt for spending twice what I could afford, and having it not work just destroyed me.

I thank anyone who can help me figure out the problem.

THANKS!

-DD

In the player's Picture Settings, there is a brightness level and a black level. What's the difference?

Larry,

While I increased the player's brightness +1 to show BTB with YCbCr, so long as I lower the brightness on my display, won't I still be current even though I changed the player's setting? I mean so long as the BTB bar doesn't show, I'm good?

If those of you who have purchased players would not mind, could you please help support this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=717926 which is about media compatability with the 2930ci.

Right now, I was wondering if everyone could post when their manufacture date was. Maybe that would help determine if it was a batch of bad players that got out or not. If they're all made in May 2006, like mine, then it's fairly obvious some of us just got defective units.

Thanks!

Dustin...
I didn't mean for my use of the word 'griping' to sound negative. I guess in hindsight it does have that connotation. Apologies. As I said I am sorry that you are having these problems. I'd send it back. I have not had any of them, and hope my 'luck' continues.

I don't know my build date. I'm at work and can try to check this evening... but somehow I don't think mine differs much from yours... I'll check.

Again, sorry you are having these problems.

shane

While most of my comparisons involved film-based material, it was still evident how superior the deinterlacing of the 2930 was in comparison. Edges of objects were smoother and the overall image had more finesse, was cleaner, and had a greater filmlike look to it. In addition, color rendition was a bit better and the picture was just more dynamic. Detail particulary in shadows stood out more, as well.


Thanks for write up. This was my feeling before seeing either player, although I've been told differently that the Tosh is better.

I saw that the Component image had the tiniest bit of EE. That's not uncommon with component connections. It's actually "ringing" caused by either 75ohms not being maintained end-to-end until the ADC or it's an artifact of DAC or ADC on either end (or even both). Like you saw, you usually have to get close see it.

larry

Something that perhaps one of you can clarify for me. So I have a 3930CI facy schmancy upconverting universal player with awesome DACS and AL24plus processing, and this digital thing and that digital thing; and I hook this up via HDMI. Is it not true that no of those marvelous DACs and whatnot are even going to be used? The video is going to be converted at the Television and the Audio most likely at my receiver?

So if one is using HDMI throughout, what is the point of getting such a high end player?

Would I get a better picture if I let the 3930 do all the video conversion along with upconversion and send it to the TV via good quality component cables?

color me confused

Ruin

If you're only going to use it for DVD-V, then you don't care. :) If you're interested in DVD-A or SACD then you would care. If you're interested in comparing CD sound quality using the DACs in the player vs those in your receiver or pre/pro, then you care.

As for video, most people will get the best picture going HDMI all the way, because if you do use component, the display will convert it to digital anyway. So with HDMI, you are avoiding a potentially signal degrading D to A and A back to D conversion. But some displays do handle an analog input better than digital, even with those extra conversions, for whatever reason.

hi, im little confused about the ntsc and pal. i realize that you set (using the video setup menu) if your tv is either pal or ntsc. what i would like to know is this: if your tv is ntsc but you have a pal disc, will it play it properly? i guess this equates to whether or not the player actually can convert ntsc to pal and pal to ntsc. can anyone clarify this for me? thanks.



can anyone help me out on this one (who has a unit already) or simply knows? thanks.

Anyone running 480i HDMI into a VP yet?
Impressions?

can anyone help me out on this one (who has a unit already) or simply knows? thanks.According to the specs and the manual the 2930 can play PAL dvds and can output PAL to a PAL-capable TV or will do a PAL-to-NTSC conversion for NTSC-only TVs.

I had a conversation with a Denon tech (from their office) this morning about the video performance of the 2930 and 3930. He said the 3930 will be better, but just how much "depends" on certain factors (display, calibration, etc.) as we all already know. Since I have a CRT RPTV, he didn't think I'd see the difference improvement as much as someone with a digital display and the nature of upscaling (which I agree). In regards to 480p component output, he said the differences will be minimal between the players (despite the 3930 having a little more range at 14bit/216mhz vs 12bit/216mhz for the 2930). He said it entirely makes sense why I always get a sharper/better image with 480p component vs HDMI upscaling. I briefly asked how the 3930 would compare against the 5910 and he said the 3930 will definitely not perform as well as the 5910. Besides having a different scaler, he said there were "other" factors inside the 5910 that are better despite both players have the Realta.

Interesting information, thanks David

Did the Denon tech' say anything about when the '3930 will finally be available?

Sorry, I didn't ask him.

He said it entirely makes sense why I always get a sharper/better image with 480p component vs HDMI upscaling.
Well, that's nice to know... so why get an upscaling player? :rolleyes: ;)

Sure it confirms what both you and I have seen, but why is it so? Next question would of course be... would a DVDO scaler make any difference? Is it the scaler or just the act of upscaling the 480i image?

I have no problem outputting 480p or whatever, via component or HDMI, so long as I know that it is producing the cleanest, sharpest, truest image.

shane

Well, that's nice to know... so why get an upscaling player? :rolleyes: ;)

Sure it confirms what both you and I have seen, but why is it so? Next question would of course be... would a DVDO scaler make any difference? Is it the scaler or just the act of upscaling the 480i image?

I have no problem outputting 480p or whatever, via component or HDMI, so long as I know that it is producing the cleanest, sharpest, truest image.

shane

My theory (anyone feel free to jump in here) as to why upscaling is of no benefit with a CRT RPTV with has native 480p has to do with overlapping scanlines. On CRT RPTV, evidently the scanlines at 1080 overlap to some degree (this is not the case with 480p). So, really, you don't have true 1080i resolution. Therefore, upscaling a 480 source to 1080i, one would be losing some of that 480 data, or at least some of that 480 data becomes invisible. In addition, there is no 1:1 pixel mapping with a CRT as is the case with a digital display. (Keep in mind I'm am not talking about true 1080i HD. Because a true 1080i data source, even with overlapping scanlines, is vastly superior to any kind of 480 source on my display.)

I think this explains why every single upscaling DVD player I've tried --- including the Toshiba HD-A1, Denon 3910, Sony 3100ES, 9100ES, Oppo 970, and Denon 2930 -- results in 480p being 10-15% sharper and more defined (if I had to put a number on it).

With all of that being said, when I do upscale, I see no scanlines as I do with 480p. I've reduced my display's overscan which has helped minimize occasionally seeing them and if I sit far back enough, I won't see them. But, of course, I don't want to sit too far back. So, that is the only advantage I see with upscaling on my display. But, technically speaking, it does slightly degrade the image.

Now, some CRT RPTV do not display 480p natively. They force upconversion to 540p. In these cases, a good upscaling player will improve the image. But, when 480p natively displayed is available, it seems to be the best for CRT. I've talked to some other folks who have similar experiences with upscaling and CRT RPTV.

In your case with your plasma, I'm not sure why 480p would be best. I'm sure a DVDO scaler would help, but in my case, I doubt it would exceed pure 480 because of the reasons mentioned.

Reading over the whole 480p over component vs HDMI issue and upscaling, I now have a doubt, which I think others share. In the case of plasmas, why would 480p over either HDMI/component look better than upscaling done by the player? The plasma will upscale it anyways, to its native resolution. In some cases, like my 500series panny, it will upconvert EVERYTHING to 1080i before going down to native res, stupid as this sounds. So logic says that let whatever does the best upscaling do it, and clearly any of these players will upscale better than my, or any, plasma display. Then as shane asked, why buy upconverting players? And if there is upscaling happening always in the case of PDPs, why would 480p look better than feeding either a native res, or if not accepted as in my case, a res that will make the pdp do the least processing possible? Please clarify, and if I have misunderstood, please forgive me and help me understand. thanks

Another related point I would like to add.

Despite both my component and HDMI inputs being fully calibrated and ISF'd for the particular scanrates I use (480, 1080i), component looks slightly better (maybe 5%). Picture contrast and brightness is improved. This was the case even when I was using real HD DVD (1080i component vs. 1080i HDMI). With HDMI, it's almost as there's this very slight gray veil over the image. With component, it's lifted off. Again, it's very slight.

I suspect with HDMI, I am forcing my display to do the DAC. With component, I am forcing the player to do the conversion -- and, obviously, the player does a better job. (Just like any decent progressive scan DVD player does a far better job of deinterlacing than my display does. My display is beyond horrible at deinterlacing. It looks little different than watching as interlaced.)

What you said, but reversed for me... slightly.
HDMI is oh-so-slightly 'cleaner' on my panel, but maybe... maybe just a tad less sharp. Makes no sense to me (the sharpness difference), but that's how my old eyes see it.

shane

I suspect with HDMI, I am forcing my display to do the DAC. With component, I am forcing the player to do the conversion -- and, obviously, the player does a better job.

I just want to point out that this might be different if only because you have a CRT *and* if the CRT is not doing and A to D and back again conversion. People with "digital" displays like plasma and LCDs, etc, should see a benefit to HDMI. But again, it's based on implementation.

(Sorry. :) I just get really irritated when people globally put forth that "component is better than HDMI" without understanding the details of what the display is doing vs the player. In your case David, there is a concrete reason why component might be better.)

Bottom line, HDMI should be tested vs component, both adequately calibrated individually, and the best one chosen.

Reading over the whole 480p over component vs HDMI issue and upscaling, I now have a doubt, which I think others share. In the case of plasmas, why would 480p over either HDMI/component look better than upscaling done by the player? The plasma will upscale it anyways, to its native resolution. In some cases, like my 500series panny, it will upconvert EVERYTHING to 1080i before going down to native res, stupid as this sounds. So logic says that let whatever does the best upscaling do it, and clearly any of these players will upscale better than my, or any, plasma display.That's just it - you can't assume that the scaler in the display will be better than that in the player.

For example, I have little doubt that the scaler in a top of the line, late mode; DVD player is better than that built into my 5 series Panasonic plasma, but the only way to find out is to see if there are visible differences between having the player output 480p, 720p or 1080i over HDMI.

As far as component vs. HDMI, with HDMI the signal is staying digital from the player to the display, where with component analog signals are being sent ot the display. At least in theory the digital transfer should always provide a superior picture, but whether this can be seen on any particular display is something that can only be determined by the viewer themselves (unless there is something inherently broken in the display's processing of digital or component signals.)

This argument is not unlike what we had with LaserDisc and S-Video outputs. LaserDisc was a composite video format, so whether you connected the player to your display via its RCA or S-Video outputs was solely a function of whether the comb filter in the LD player or the one in your display did a better job.

I just want to point out that this might be different if only because you have a CRT *and* if the CRT is not doing and A to D and back again conversion.

Kevin,

Can you elaborate on this a bit more? I always thought every CRT RPTV display required the signal to be converted to analog for output. It's just a matter of where you want the conversion to occur (display or DVD player). Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying.

Anyone running 480i HDMI into a VP yet?
Impressions?

When I had the 2930 I tried its 480i into a VP30. It would not pass most of the cadence tests on the ABT disc. It looks like the 480i is not raw 480i but re-interlaced 480i after de-interlacing by the player.

When I had the 2930 I tried its 480i into a VP30. It would not pass most of the cadence tests on the ABT disc. It looks like the 480i is not raw 480i but re-interlaced 480i after de-interlacing by the player.
I've never heard of (or seen) a player do that. Why would it do that? Possibly the HQV chips could do it.

larry

Kevin,

Can you elaborate on this a bit more? I always thought every CRT RPTV display required the signal to be converted to analog for output. It's just a matter of where you want the conversion to occur (display or DVD player). Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying. I think Kevin means that there are some CRT RPTVs that will taka an analog signal, convert to digital for processing (common with digital input) and then convert back to analog for display vs analog all the way through. Some of the older Sony LCD RPTVs were the inverse. They took digital input and converted to analog (already had the circuits for from previous TVs - DVI input was new) and then converted back to digital.

larry

CNET has reviewed the DVD-2930CI:
http://reviews.cnet.com/Denon_DVD_2930CI/4505-6463_7-31987329.html

In a nutshell, the best SD-DVD player they've ever seen, but is it worth the coin???

Interesting how they noticed the chroma bug at 1080i with the 2930 with the Windows DVD Test Annex.

I think someone earlier in this thread mentioned a test on DVE which tests for the chroma bug --- anyone?

Interesting how they noticed the chroma bug at 1080i with the 2930 with the Windows DVD Test Annex.

I think someone earlier in this thread mentioned a test on DVE which tests for the chroma bug --- anyone?
Which "chroma bug"? I'm not familiar with the Windows test disc know what they are talking about. One of the Snell and Wilcox patterns on DVE with the red and blue triangles will show the ICP bug on players. IIRC, the ABT test disc has ICP tests on it. If it shows up at 1080i and not 480i then the Reon chip is generating it while scaling and reinterlacing.

larry

Has anyone opened the hood of a 2930 to see if it is a new ESS decoder or the same one from the *910 series?

Interesting how they noticed the chroma bug at 1080i with the 2930 with the Windows DVD Test Annex.

I think someone earlier in this thread mentioned a test on DVE which tests for the chroma bug --- anyone?

The only time I see an issue with this player is running at 720p, and I firmly believe this is panel driven and not player driven...unfortunately I can't be sure because I don't have another set to compare it to.

It's funny, the CNET review states that the Oppo was very close, and I didn't think that was the case at all. After watching movies with the Denon and switching to the Oppo 970, I immediately noticed a difference in detail, especially in darker scenes. My display was calibrated with each player...as a matter of fact I ran through DVE several times with the Oppo just to be sure. I really wanted to like the Oppo because if it was close, I would have kept it and sold the 2930. I shipped the 970 back to Oppo yesterday.

When I had the 2930 I tried its 480i into a VP30. It would not pass most of the cadence tests on the ABT disc. It looks like the 480i is not raw 480i but re-interlaced 480i after de-interlacing by the player.


That's weird...although a typical Denon approach to a situation.

They have been doing Progressive so long....

Did the Denon tech' say anything about when the '3930 will finally be available?

I was in a Magnolia today.

Their system says 10/18 for the 3930 and their next shipment of 2930's.

They had 2 in stock but neither set up. I was told they didn't want to open one up because then it would be an "open box" and therefore harder to sell.

My response was how do you expect to sell anything without letting people have a look at it?

I walked out before I could get a response.

Idiots

I was in a Magnolia today.

Their system says 10/18 for the 3930 and their next shipment of 2930's.

They had 2 in stock but neither set up. I was told they didn't want to open one up because then it would be an "open box" and therefore harder to sell.

My response was how do you expect to sell anything without letting people have a look at it?

I walked out before I could get a response.

IdiotsWhy didn't you stick around and say you'd buy it if it was an 'open box'. If it was an open box, for open box price, and hasn't been used, I'm all over it :D .

I think we should all collude by pairing up with someone. Person A buys it, returns it, and then Person B could buy it at an open box price the next day. Person B's relative could by one the next day, return it and then Person A's relative can buy it for him/her the next day.

Edit: After thinking about it, Person A could have the his/her relative buy it and return it and then Person A could buy it the next day.

Why didn't you stick around and say you'd buy it if it was an 'open box'. If it was an open box, for open box price, and hasn't been used, I'm all over it :D .

I think we should all collude by pairing up with someone. Person A buys it, returns it, and then Person B could buy it at an open box price the next day. Person B's relative could by one the next day, return it and then Person A's relative can buy it for him/her the next day.

Edit: After thinking about it, Person A could have the his/her relative buy it and return it and then Person A could buy it the next day.

Hmmmmm. Might work.

I did the same thing (inadvertantly) with my Velodyne sub.
Bought if for a good discount, 25 % off, then returned it thinking it was still too much money.
Two days later I'm in the store and the open box sub (that I had opened) is on clearance for over 50% off !
So I bought it again. Saved $550 :) :)

Since when does "New for August" mean Mid-October.

I was in a Magnolia today.

Their system says 10/18 for the 3930 and their next shipment of 2930's.

They had 2 in stock but neither set up. I was told they didn't want to open one up because then it would be an "open box" and therefore harder to sell.
Magnolia is notorious for this, and they do it with just about everything that's not a low-priced product.

For example, most Magnolias have had 3910s and 5910s in stock, but only had 2910s on the shelf. They also did the same with the 2006 SXRDs the first few weeks they had them, preferring to tell people "the picture looks just like on that 2005 model over there."

Since when does "New for August" mean Mid-October.

I was hoping it would be out in the USA by now.

Here in Australia I have one ordered and ETA is Sept. 25

When I had the 2930 I tried its 480i into a VP30. It would not pass most of the cadence tests on the ABT disc. It looks like the 480i is not raw 480i but re-interlaced 480i after de-interlacing by the player.



isn't this the first denon dvd player to actually pass 480i? i don't ever recall any of the denon players doing it prior to this model so perhaps they haven't done it right since its the "first time"???

Don't you folks have any ethics? I mean really, creating your own open box to drive down the price? Either have the patience for prices to fall, or a sale to happen, or if you just can't wait then pay the price.

R

I have found that my Sony 32" Bravia LCD shows a much/much better picture from my 3930CI's component video output than from any HDMI output resolution. I'm a bit disappointed.

Can anyone venture a guess why this disparity would exist? Any settings that I must be missing?

Thanks!

Clark

I have found that my Sony 32" Bravia LCD shows a much/much better picture from my 3930CI's component video output than from any HDMI output resolution. I'm a bit disappointed.

Can anyone venture a guess why this disparity would exist? Any settings that I must be missing?

Thanks!

Clark
Did you calibrate the display on each input? You may need different display settings for HDMI and component. Hopefully the Sony will allow memory settings or remember the setting for each input. Where did you get a 3930?

larry

most likely form Hong Kong. I know retailer there and they already have shipped dozens of 3930 to pre-ordering customers . I will get mine this week (they getting delivery this week)

Don't you folks have any ethics? I mean really, creating your own open box to drive down the price? Either have the patience for prices to fall, or a sale to happen, or if you just can't wait then pay the price.



Ethics?
Shmethics.
WMD?
Whoopee.

Don't be so judgemental... :D

Apologies. I meant a 2930CI. No, I haven't calibrated for the HDMI yet, but will try that this week.

The only time I see an issue with this player is running at 720p, and I firmly believe this is panel driven and not player driven...unfortunately I can't be sure because I don't have another set to compare it to.

It's funny, the CNET review states that the Oppo was very close, and I didn't think that was the case at all. After watching movies with the Denon and switching to the Oppo 970, I immediately noticed a difference in detail, especially in darker scenes. My display was calibrated with each player...as a matter of fact I ran through DVE several times with the Oppo just to be sure. I really wanted to like the Oppo because if it was close, I would have kept it and sold the 2930. I shipped the 970 back to Oppo yesterday.

I definitely agree. While the Oppo is a great value for the money, the 2930 is definitely a good step above it (as it should be for the money), especially at 480p component. In all fairness, I didn't compare the upscale image long enough though I suspect it would be similar in the 2930 being superior.

The last couple of nights I've been A/Bing the 2930 with my 2900 at 480p component. The 2900 is an outstanding player despite it being four years. While the 2900 does, in fact, show slightly more resolution detail on the Avia 200mhz resolution pattern and on the HQV test, the 2930 is actually a hair sharper. More notably, the 2930 has a cleaner image. Now, I'm not sure if this is because the 2900 resolves a bit more, thus, showing source artifacts. My guess is because the 2930 has superior deinterlacing. From a deinterlacing standpoint, there is little comparison. The 2900 failed the jaggies tests on the HQV disc, although it did well on the film-based tests (does anyone know if the jaggies tests on the HQV disc apply to film based DVDs?) The 2930 definitely has a smoother, more filmlike image. The 2900 looks just a bit more "digital" in comparison. Another thing that really stood out was the richer black levels, better shadow detail, and improved contrast with the 2930 over the 2900. I compared several scenes in Gladiator several times over and the difference really became apparent.

I'm happy with the 2930. My only question is why I'm seeing black and white clipping with YCbCr at 1080i when I do upscale. Can anyone check this mode for me on your display just to make sure it's not the player? I'm thinking it could just be the way my display handles it. Also, I admit I'm still just a bit curious how the 3930 will compare. :)

I definitely agree. While the Oppo is a great value for the money, the 2930 is definitely a good step above it (as it should be for the money), especially at 480p component. In all fairness, I didn't compare the upscale image long enough though I suspect it would be similar in the 2930 being superior.

The last couple of nights I've been A/Bing the 2930 with my 2900 at 480p component. The 2900 is an outstanding player despite it being four years. While the 2900 does, in fact, show slightly more resolution detail on the Avia 200mhz resolution pattern and on the HQV test, the 2930 is actually a hair sharper. More notably, the 2930 has a cleaner image. Now, I'm not sure if this is because the 2900 resolves a bit more, thus, showing source artifacts. My guess is because the 2930 has superior deinterlacing. From a deinterlacing standpoint, there is little comparison. The 2900 failed the jaggies tests on the HQV disc, although it did well on the film-based tests (does anyone know if the jaggies tests on the HQV disc apply to film based DVDs?) The 2930 definitely has a smoother, more filmlike image. The 2900 looks just a bit more "digital" in comparison. Another thing that really stood out was the richer black levels, better shadow detail, and improved contrast with the 2930 over the 2900. I compared several scenes in Gladiator several times over and the difference really became apparent.

I'm happy with the 2930. My only question is why I'm seeing black and white clipping with YCbCr at 1080i when I do upscale. Can anyone check this mode for me on your display just to make sure it's not the player? I'm thinking it could just be the way my display handles it. Also, I admit I'm still just a bit curious how the 3930 will compare. :)

So I guess the $64k question is whether the 2930 is worth about $250 or so more on the 'net new ($400 retail) than the 2900 goes for used? :confused:

Wes

Don't you folks have any ethics? I mean really, creating your own open box to drive down the price? Either have the patience for prices to fall, or a sale to happen, or if you just can't wait then pay the price.

R

I wasn't going to say this myself, but I was definitely thinking it, and since you did say it Ruin, I will 100% agree with you. :)

And people wonder why brick and morter retailers can't compete on price with internet sellers...

Don't you folks have any ethics? I mean really, creating your own open box to drive down the price? Either have the patience for prices to fall, or a sale to happen, or if you just can't wait then pay the price.

ROr let them be ethical and rip you off by selling outdated products full price without telling you there's something newer. My dealer tried to sell me a scratched-up 3910 demo unit with no cords or cables or remote for full price. What's that about ethics? :mad: I said it looks like a demo. The guy said, 'Oh you might be right."

Oh and they sold me a $700 $5K and over warranty when I bought my tv for $4.7K. The $5K and under warranty is about $120 less. I argued for a credit, so they gave me a store credit, so they say.

Let's stick to discussing the players, please.

larry

So I guess the $64k question is whether the 2930 is worth about $250 or so more on the 'net new ($400 retail) than the 2900 goes for used? :confused:

Wes

Yes --- as far as component 480p is concerned. However, the extra money does buy you something new and takes out the 'risk' factor of buying a 3-4 year old used player from someone (in addition to better, overall PQ). You also get scaling with the 2930 which if not a benefit to you today, could be in the future with a new display, etc.

Don't you folks have any ethics? I mean really, creating your own open box to drive down the price? Either have the patience for prices to fall, or a sale to happen, or if you just can't wait then pay the price.

R

Please don't miscontrue my comments. I have ethics.
In a past life I was the one who had to deal with all the open box material when I worked for a manufacturer.

I am just frustrated that the dealer won't even display the model because he doesn't want a unit with an open box. I will not resort to playing games....they just won't get my business.

As pooper says, let's talk about the players.

So I guess the $64k question is whether the 2930 is worth about $250 or so more on the 'net new ($400 retail) than the 2900 goes for used? :confused: Wes
What this question doesn't take into account is how these two players compare when it comes to sound quality, particularly for music.

BTW, the manual for the Denon DVD 3930CI is finally posted on the Denon website. I think shipping may start sometime next week.

http://usa.denon.com/DVD-3930CI-OM-E.pdf

What this question doesn't take into account is how these two players compare when it comes to sound quality, particularly for music.

For me, it's about video quality and it not macroblocking on my plasma. I want a DVD source that will show off my Panny and these two seem like the best option without dropping $1500-$2500. I don't have a preference whether my DVD player or CATV uses the component or HDMI or vice versa.

I have no SACD's or DVD-A's, but I do have an exceedingly solid redbook set-up (Rotel 1072/Bel Canto DAC2) so sound quality for music isn't particularly an issue.

Wes

There are a couple of online retailers showing at least one 3930 in stock. Hopefully, others will start to get them soon. I'm going to try to demo one before making a final decision between the two players.

Yes --- as far as component 480p is concerned. However, the extra money does buy you something new and takes out the 'risk' factor of buying a 3-4 year old used player from someone (in addition to better, overall PQ). You also get scaling with the 2930 which if not a benefit to you today, could be in the future with a new display, etc.

Good points.

My main concern is not macroblocking (when I finally saw it on a CATV broadcast I about puked) and a source good enough to show off my 8UK Panny plasma.

I have no preference on HDMI vs. component even though my display can handle anything but 1080p. I guess I'll just have to decide for myself. I'm pretty sure I can get the vast majority of my cash back used at this early point if I buy a 2930.

Wes

is it just me or (after 32 LONG pages) perhaps this thread should be for the 2930 only, and start a new one for the 3930? anyone with me here?


if not, the thread will easliy double once a few 3930's are out and that will be around 70 pages to read through if your looking for simple setup tips and such. just my opinion.


anthony.

I am about to buy my last DVD player until HD really takes off. I listen to a lot of multichannel SACD, and was looking for an excellent DVD and SACD player. I was considering the Sony DVP-NS9100ES.

I'd greatly appreciate a response from the experts on the forum. How do you think the video perfomance of the Sony compares with the Denon players that use the Realta HQV chip, such as the 5910CI or the forthcoming 3930CI?

Is the difference in video performance between the Sony and the 5910 (and presumably the 3930) really noticeable -- you'd see it right away -- or subtle and something you have to seach for? If the difference is a few jagged lines that you have to search for, I might not ever notice.

The other issue is SACD playback. My guess is that the Sony is best, but all of these players at this price point do a good job?

Finally, and this is very much a matter of personal preference, I think the silver finish of the Sony is beautiful compared to the dull black of the Denons. But that is very much a matter of personal preference. And it is the video and audio perfomance that really matters.

(I also considered the 5910, but I'm not sure I have room for the monster. And the high price appears to not be justifed compared to the new 3930.)

There are a couple of online retailers showing at least one 3930 in stock. Hopefully, others will start to get them soon. I'm going to try to demo one before making a final decision between the two players.
Even if you don't care about getting one from an authorized dealer, be careful that what you buy is labeled "Region 1" or "All." I happened to be at D&M headquarters in Mahwah the other day for some servicing on an older component, and they don't even have a shipment date for the '3930 in their system yet. Those couple of online retailers are probably selling Asian and/or European models.

Even if you don't care about getting one from an authorized dealer, be careful that what you buy is labeled "Region 1" or "All." I happened to be at D&M headquarters in Mahwah the other day for some servicing on an older component, and they don't even have a shipment date for the '3930 in their system yet. Those couple of online retailers are probably selling Asian and/or European models.

Makes me wonder what the delay is all about. Hope they aren't having problems ( a la the Arcam 137).

I am about to buy my last DVD player until HD really takes off. I listen to a lot of multichannel SACD, and was looking for an excellent DVD and SACD player. I was considering the Sony DVP-NS9100ES.

I'd greatly appreciate a response from the experts on the forum. How do you think the video perfomance of the Sony compares with the Denon players that use the Realta HQV chip, such as the 5910CI or the forthcoming 3930CI?

Is the difference in video performance between the Sony and the 5910 (and presumably the 3930) really noticeable -- you'd see it right away -- or subtle and something you have to seach for? If the difference is a few jagged lines that you have to search for, I might not ever notice.

The other issue is SACD playback. My guess is that the Sony is best, but all of these players at this price point do a good job?

Finally, and this is very much a matter of personal preference, I think the silver finish of the Sony is beautiful compared to the dull black of the Denons. But that is very much a matter of personal preference. And it is the video and audio perfomance that really matters.

(I also considered the 5910, but I'm not sure I have room for the monster. And the high price appears to not be justifed compared to the new 3930.)

Marty,

I had the Sony 9100ES for a time. I can't comment on audio because that's not my thing --- only film-based DVD image quality is. However, I have heard nothing but outstanding things of this player's audio capabilities.

From a video standpoint, the 9100ES displays a nice image. However, it is not quite in the same league of the 2930. The 9100ES has above average deinterlacing and scaling (not in the same class as the Reon). Sharpness and detail were average to slightly above. I will say the player has very good color rendition....probably it's strongest picture trait.

You can find another player which performs just as well if not better (i.e, 2930) for less money. I was not able to do an A/B comparison, but I'm willing to bet the Oppo 970 would perform pretty close to the 9100ES. Also, the much cheaper Sony 3100ES has the exact same deinterlacer and HDMI transmitter as the 9100ES, so that's an option too. Video performance is very similar between the two (I A/B'd them at 480p component and even there the 9100ES is only maybe 2-3% better. The 9100ES has 14bit/216 DAC vs 12bit/216 for the 3100ES...maybe the difference??). Beware of some built-in edge enhancement with the 3100ES.

I also A/B'd the 9100ES against the Denon 3910. The 3910 was definitely better at 480p component (noticable sharper and more detail). They were much closer via 1080i HDMI. The 3910 was still a bit sharper, but I prefered the colors of the Sony.

I will either be going with the 2930 or 3930 as my last standard DVD player. I figure it will be at least another year or maybe two before I buy into HD discs. In all honesty, I would be more than perfectly fine just sticking with the 2930. However, there is that little 'piece of mind' I need to get out of the way in demo'ing the 3930 just in case it's significantly better. If it's only hair better, I won't care. But, if it's something what I think is pretty noticable, I'll spring for it.

Even if you don't care about getting one from an authorized dealer, be careful that what you buy is labeled "Region 1" or "All." I happened to be at D&M headquarters in Mahwah the other day for some servicing on an older component, and they don't even have a shipment date for the '3930 in their system yet. Those couple of online retailers are probably selling Asian and/or European models.

If/when I demo it, I'll definitely get it from an authorized dealer. I was just hoping that maybe this is a sign they are coming, but maybe not.

From a video standpoint, the 9100ES displays a nice image. However, it is not quite in the same league of the 2930. The 9100ES has above average deinterlacing and scaling (not in the same class as the Reon).

Thanks very much for your response. I plan on ordering the 2930. Judging by all of the comments it has superior video, and probably the audio is comparable. The 2930 also has more features than does the Sony.

My only concern are the reports of the 2930 not being able to read burned discs. I have a large number of DVD-Rs burned on a Pioneer elite. If this machine can't read them it will be returned. My current Sony does not have that problem.

Like you, I am wondering if I should wait to see what the reports are on the 3930. But I don't know if I want to spend $650 more. The 2930 will probably more than suffice.

Hi, I am close to pulling the trigger on a Marantz 7600. from the audio side, would I really be able to tell much difference between the 2930 and the 7600. Since the 7600 would be a little over $300 less than the 2930, if the 2930 is better, is it *that* much better.

I know that since this is still early release, speculation is expected.

Thanks!

Marty,

take half a dozen of your burned disks to a retailer and demo them on the AVR to see if they read ok.

Ruin

Good points.

My main concern is not macroblocking (when I finally saw it on a CATV broadcast I about puked) and a source good enough to show off my 8UK Panny plasma.

I have no preference on HDMI vs. component even though my display can handle anything but 1080p. I guess I'll just have to decide for myself. I'm pretty sure I can get the vast majority of my cash back used at this early point if I buy a 2930.

Wes
Wes... I have the 50" 8UK and the 2930 produces a remarkably 'true' image. I had the Pio 79avi and the 2930 is far superior... via Component. I didn't compare the HDMI abilities of the 79avi.

The 2930 has played every self-burned disc I've thrown at it... either computer burned at 4 or 8x, or Toshiba stand-alone recorder at 1x. Various brands too.

I've had this for almost 3 weeks and I'm continually blown away by the image (and sound) quality. It really makes the 8UK shine! :D

good luck

shane

Wes... I have the 50" 8UK and the 2930 produces a remarkably 'true' image. I had the Pio 79avi and the 2930 is far superior... via Component. I didn't compare the HDMI abilities of the 79avi.

The 2930 has played every self-burned disc I've thrown at it... either computer burned at 4 or 8x, or Toshiba stand-alone recorder at 1x. Various brands too.

I've had this for almost 3 weeks and I'm continually blown away by the image (and sound) quality. It really makes the 8UK shine! :D

good luck

shane

Thanks, Shane. I guess I'll get even more serious when I get back from vacation in a couple of weeks and pull the trigger. I'll definitely have to do an evaluation of it as a redbook transport, as well, versus my Rotel.

Wes

Has anyone compared a 2930 to a 3910 yet? Curious about how video and hi-res audio compare.

Not sure if this helps...I didn't do an A/B comparison, but I did demo the 3910 earlier in the year (yes, I've demo'd a lot of players). Based on memory (beware) I seem to remember the 3910 being just a bit sharper than the 2930, but the 2930 to have better picture dynamics in terms of color, contrast, black level. The 2930 seems to have better picture depth and a more pleasing image. Again, this just based on memory. I could be wrong.

The 3930CI manual is up...

http://usa.denon.com/DVD-3930CI-OM-E.pdf

56 pages :p ...

That's what I said four posts ago (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8410534&&#post8410534)… :DAnd about 13 posts before yours somebody posted the first link. :)

larry

Has anyone heard anything new on 3930 deliveries?

Forgive me if this has already been answered, but can the 2930ci upconvert to 720p/1080i via the component outputs? I know it can on HDMI. My projector does not have an HDMI capability and my only option is component input. I gathered that the PQ of the 2930ci is outstanding for 480p component, but am I wasting money on a DVD player where I might not be able to utilize some of it's most major features if it only upconverts on HDMI?

Any up to date firmware model DVD player isn't allowed to perform upconversion over component... It's a really stupid attempt at preventing piracy.

I'm rather disappointed that neither the 2930 or 3930 will have firewire or HDMI 1.2a... Based on the specs, it appears that the only way to send SACD from the player is over analog outs. At least the 3910 had firewire.

Any up to date firmware model DVD player isn't allowed to perform upconversion over component... It's a really stupid attempt at preventing piracy.

Especially considering HD DVD and Blu-ray allow for "real" HD transmission at 720p/1080i via component.

I'm rather disappointed that neither the 2930 or 3930 will have firewire or HDMI 1.2a... Based on the specs, it appears that the only way to send SACD from the player is over analog outs. At least the 3910 had firewire.

Both can output sacd over denonlink3.

Not true Clepto, the Cary DVD 7 and newly introduced DVD8 both can upconvert over component.

Does the 2930CI AL24 Processiong Plus work with HDMI?

I will own the dvd-2930ci shortly. Unfortunatly my pre/pro is not a Denon so I will not be able to use the link. For video I will be using the HDMI cable out to my Sony SXRD Television.

My question is, If I am unable to use the Denon link for audio, what is the next best connection for audio and the best sound quality? Is it the Optical out or RCA out or Coax out? (not sure the dvd will have a coax out)

For now I am using a Yamaha rxv-2095 as my pre/pro with a rotel rmb-1095 amp.
I hope to upgrade my pre/pro to a rotel someday.

The player has optical/digital coax and 5.1 analog outs set it's more a matter of preference than anything - well that and what component is going to do the best job at processing the DD/DTS tracks.

For audio sound quality on DD5.1 and DTS 5.1 disks, particularly for movies with encoded digital effects, the best connection is either coaxial digital or digital optical, depending which connection you can make most easily. I believe the '2930 provides both. Coaxial is a little easier since it's a single, RCA type connector.

And about 13 posts before yours somebody posted the first link. :)

larryWhoops… I've deleted my posts.

You didn't have to delete them. No big deal. If dupe posts were the worst that happens around here we'd be in great shape! :)

larry

I will own the dvd-2930ci shortly. Unfortunatly my pre/pro is not a Denon so I will not be able to use the link. For video I will be using the HDMI cable out to my Sony SXRD Television.

My question is, If I am unable to use the Denon link for audio, what is the next best connection for audio and the best sound quality? Is it the Optical out or RCA out or Coax out? (not sure the dvd will have a coax out)

For now I am using a Yamaha rxv-2095 as my pre/pro with a rotel rmb-1095 amp.
I hope to upgrade my pre/pro to a rotel someday.

Probably the Analog outs (5.1). I get way better sound using the analog outs (and the 2930's internal DTS or DD decoders) than using optical to my receiver to use it's. Much better.

Of course, you'll HAVE to use them for multichannel SACD playback. The convenience of being able to play CD's, SACD's, DVD-As, DD, DTS all through the 5.1 analog outs is great. Not as great as DenonLink would be, but I don't have that option, so. It's nice.

Since there seem to be a number of people around on this forum with both a panny 8UK/EK (9UK/EK anyone?) and a 2930... Which output resolution of the 2930 delivers the best image quality? Does the 1024x768 computer mode of the 2930 work well (aspect ratio) on the panasonic's dvi input?

I will test all equipment before I buy, of course, but it is nice to know these things in advance. The full set I'm thinking of now looks as follows: Panasonic 9EK + DVI module, Denon 2930CI dvd, Denon 2807 AV amp used as video switcher (and analog->digital converter and deinterlacer).

Has anyone heard anything new on 3930 deliveries?
I haven't seen anything yet...

Anyone know how the 2930/3930 will compare to the newly announced Marantz player. I think it will be the DV7001?

What chipset is the Marantz using?

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.areadvd.de%2Flm%2FAV_Hardware%2 Fifa2006marantzdvd.shtml&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

Looks like the same as the DV9600. If I remember correctly that is the Pioneer deinterlacer.

Since there seem to be a number of people around on this forum with both a panny 8UK/EK (9UK/EK anyone?) and a 2930... Which output resolution of the 2930 delivers the best image quality? Does the 1024x768 computer mode of the 2930 work well (aspect ratio) on the panasonic's dvi input?

Going straight to the HDMI board or component inputs, 480p gives me the best pq on my 50" - 8UK.
Upconverting (HDMI only, of course) is soft.
Plusses and minuses to both, I slightly (very slightly) prefer the HDMI image to the component.

shane

There's an HDCD logo on one of those players and the text says it uses Faroujda processing.
A lot like their Denon brothers .

Has anyone heard anything new on 3930 deliveries?
I reached someone today in Denon sales and marketing who said that the DVD 3930CI ought to be in stores the first week in October.

Question for you "audio guys."

I only use my DVD players for movies (I only listen to music in the car). Right now I'm using a Yamaha HTR-5890 receiver via digital optical cable. Is it quite possible the 2930 or 3930 would give me better audio for movies if it has better DACs than my Yamaha? If so, what is the likelyhood of better DACs in the Denon 2930/3930? Again, movies are my only interest here. I'm just asking as I haven't gone through the hassle of connecting multi-channel 5.1 cables yet, as I'm using a digital optical cable which means my Yamaha is doing the DAC.

The DACs in the '3930 would almost certainly be better than those in the Yamaha HTR-5890, but the only way of employing them would be if you went multi-channel analogue. When it comes to watching movies, though, some might argue that without a digital signal you're losing some of the digital special effects encoded in the movie's audio track. This latter point could be totally mistaken, however, so hopefully someone better qualified to opine on this point will post.

I was under the impression with multi-channel you would be able to get everything as original encoded on the disc, but can't use any of the receiver's special processing or enhancements -- which is fine for me. Using digital optical now, I only stick with standard DD or DTS as I don't like added or artificial enhancements.

When it comes to watching movies, though, some might argue that without a digital signal you're losing some of the digital special effects encoded in the movie's audio track. This latter point could be totally mistaken, however, so hopefully someone better qualified to opine on this point will post. The only shortcoming I can think of is if you have 5.1 analog outputs you won't be able to take full advantage of matrixed DD-EX and discrete DTS-ES 6.1 if you have more than 5.1 speaker setup. But for DD/DTS 5.1 there is no difference if the player decodes or the receiver/processor decodes except for the quality of the processing. No information is lost. Some receiver/processor can take the analog 5.1 input, convert to digital, do BM, speaker alignment, etc., and then convert back to analog for output to the amps. In fact, this is how I use the Tosh A1 and it's broken analog LFE output and still use the calibration setup for my room.

larry

Doesn't it sort of defeat the purpose of using the DACs in your player to have it convert to analog, then have the receiver reconvert back to digital to work its magic and then convert back to analog again to be played?

I have a situation where the DACs in my player are better, but only incrementaly than my receiver, but I want the Audyssey correction that my AVR supplies. Seems better to me to skip the D >A >D conversion and just send the digital signal to the AVR and let it do the conversion.

Sort of a waste of my upper end player really except for the upconverting of DVDs.

Ruin

I wouldn't buy a player for analog audio and then do this, but it still can depend on the components involved and on paper "sounds" bad. However, in my case it REALLY comes in handy because I don't have HDMI audio, the A1's 5.1 analog output has LFE level issues that I can work around with settings on the A1 and I can keep all room adjustments processing in one place. Sounds great. With digital (coax) from A1 you only get DTS. With the analog outputs I can get decoded DD+ and TRUE-HD (or whatever it's called). This is just for movie soundtrack audio. For "real" audio I have a separate room and only need 2ch.

larry

I recently purchased the Denon AVR4806CI which will upconvert to 1080P. I will be purchasing the Mitsubishi 73831 DLP which will also upconvert to 1080P.

My question is: What benefits/reasons would there be for me, with this set-up, to purchase the DVD-2930CI in terms of picture quality or other reasons? Would I be just as well off getting the DVD-2910 and saving some money or perhaps go for a DVD-3910 for the improved audio performance?

It depends on whether you get macroblocking with your DLP (the 2910 and 3910 can have MB, whereas the 2930 and 3930 cannot).

I would be shocked if your AVR or display could upscale as well as the 2930. It all really comes down to which unit can deinterlace and scale better.

BillP

What does Macroblocking look like?

BillP

What does Macroblocking look like?
Solid objects are broken down into tiny blocks. It's pretty obvious if you have the problem.

Here is a link with an example.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_1/algolith-mosquito-video-noise-reducer-3-2005.html

There is an article out there about MB but I can't seem to find it right now.

Thanks for the link. Let's not get mired in MB in this thread.

larry

The local A&B Sound called me today.

They finally have stock on the 2930...a month late.

I know where I'm headed tomorrow :)

The local A&B Sound called me today.

They finally have stock on the 2930...a month late.

I know where I'm headed tomorrow :)
Could you ask when they're expecting the 3930? :)