Just spent at least 2 hours fiddling with this.
First set everything to factory default (basically everything at 50%)
Disengaged any special picture modes and adjusted the three primary colors individually.
Then went back to the DVE basic set-up and started from the beginning.

Time well spent!

Now I understand why everyone loves the picture on this machine :)

I've always wondered -- are you supposed to calibrate your picture using your TV settings or your DVD player settings? Or both? I've always just turned all special picture enhancements off on my DVD player and calibrated the TV using the TV settings (Denon 2910 and Panny 50PH9).

Now that I'm getting the 3930, I'm wondering if I should do some fiddling with the picture on the player too. Or maybe I should just get it ISF calibrated by someone who really knows what they are doing. Any references in the SF Bay Area?

With digital video there should be no need for any video controls if the DVD player properly decodes the disc. There is only 1 digital value for each possible pixel color in a given "pixel width", eg. 8bit video, 10bit video, etc. For SD and HD DVDs these 8bit YCbCr 4:2:0 pixel values are encoded on the disc. Adjustments on a player come in handy if the display lacks calibration control or only has one calibration setting that has to be used for all inputs.

larry

I've always wondered -- are you supposed to calibrate your picture using your TV settings or your DVD player settings? Or both? I've always just turned all special picture enhancements off on my DVD player and calibrated the TV using the TV settings (Denon 2910 and Panny 50PH9).

Now that I'm getting the 3930, I'm wondering if I should do some fiddling with the picture on the player too. Or maybe I should just get it ISF calibrated by someone who really knows what they are doing. Any references in the SF Bay Area?

"Mr Bob" is in your area I believe. I'd send him a PM.

The only two things I tend to play with on the DVD player side are sharpness and gamma. The 2930CI is the first player I've had where increasing the sharpness beyond default actually provides good results. That my be particular to my CRT based TV with a 480i/p analog output signal.

Edit: I haven't had to mess with the gamma on my 2930CI, but on previous DVDs player I did.

The only settings I'm using on my 2930 are the picture centering (for vertical/horizonal image placement) and +1 for Hi Sharpness. I could probably get away with increasing sharpness a bit more, something I'm going to play around with more - but probably just use my display. I tried the Enhancer a couple of times, but didn't see a benefit.

I found no value in the DNR; even at +1 there was a very slight loss of detail/sharpness. The MPEG setting is completely useless and makes the image very plastic looking since it robs so much detail.

Everything else set at default - including gamma, etc. All of those done through my display and ISF calibration.

Thanks for all your thoughts and suggestions!

"Mr Bob" is in your area I believe. I'd send him a PM.


Hi. Let me know if I can help.


Mr Bob

Hi. Let me know if I can help.


Mr Bob

Hey Bob,

My set is in great shape, but when dsroberti asked for a reference in the SF area, you came to mind.

The only settings I'm using on my 2930 are the picture centering (for vertical/horizonal image placement) and +1 for Hi Sharpness. I could probably get away with increasing sharpness a bit more, something I'm going to play around with more - but probably just use my display. I tried the Enhancer a couple of times, but didn't see a benefit.



Last night I spent quite a bit of time refining sharpness. I used the sharpness control on my display and the 2930 sharpness controls...along with using the Avia sharpness pattern and paying particular attention to balancing out the frequency pattern at the top of screen (and even bottom to some degree). I ended up bumping Hi Sharpness on the Denon to +3. This helped "bring up" that part of the frequency spectrum. Surprisingly, I ended up turning the Enhancer on the Denon to +2. This seemed to increase the focus of the image. As a result of these changes, I didn't really notice any edge enhancement added - maybe some very slight accentuating of edge enhancement and artifacting already present on a disc. However, the increased sharpness and focus seems to give the image more clarity and "punch" outweighing any negative by a long shot.

I’ve had a 3930 for a couple months now and have decided to exchange it for a new one due to occasional lock ups. Is this a common problem with the 3930 or just some of the first units shipped? I am hoping the current units shipping are more reliable.

I’ve had a 3930 for a couple months now and have decided to exchange it for a new one due to occasional lock ups. Is this a common problem with the 3930 or just some of the first units shipped? I am hoping the current units shipping are more reliable.What are you meaning by "lock-up"- ie. the tray is stuck? or it will not engage any, or a particular, function?

It's more like the player freezes up during playback of a disk. The only way of getting out of the lock-up is to power off and then turn it on again, like rebooting your computer when it freezes.

Last night I spent quite a bit of time refining sharpness. I used the sharpness control on my display and the 2930 sharpness controls...along with using the Avia sharpness pattern and paying particular attention to balancing out the frequency pattern at the top of screen (and even bottom to some degree). I ended up bumping Hi Sharpness on the Denon to +3. This helped "bring up" that part of the frequency spectrum. Surprisingly, I ended up turning the Enhancer on the Denon to +2. This seemed to increase the focus of the image. As a result of these changes, I didn't really notice any edge enhancement added - maybe some very slight accentuating of edge enhancement and artifacting already present on a disc. However, the increased sharpness and focus seems to give the image more clarity and "punch" outweighing any negative by a long shot.


Neither I nor Runco shoot for absolutely NO edge enhancement. They coach their trainees to get graphics up there and work with them.

SOME level of ee is OK in my book. You just have to work with it.

Esp. since ee and the video softening of adding filtering - usually at the left side of the sharpness bargraph, while ee is on the right side of it - is not a great thing either. That softening effect is strictly for getting rid of the coarseness and graininess of a poor RF video signal. The old Advent pjs had a "Detail" control, which was best when at FULL - all the way to the right. This is straight out of their owner's manual, probably written by Henry Kloss himself.

That's because their Detail control was before the time of ee, and was strictly video softening. All the way up was where it was totally out of circuit. This was the position advised when using the best equipment available - the BIG 10'-12' satellite dish, fed directly to the display.


You always have to balance the 2, as there ARE 2, and very few people know that.

Usually on video displays, the MIDPOINT of the Sharpness bargraph is best, where both types of it are out of circuit.


Mr Bob

What are you meaning by "lock-up"- ie. the tray is stuck? or it will not engage any, or a particular, function?

As mentioned above, the player will occasionally lock up and not respond to any remote or front panel commands. The only fix is to do a hard reboot by unplugging the power cord.

As mentioned above, the player will occasionally lock up and not respond to any remote or front panel commands. The only fix is to do a hard reboot by unplugging the power cord.


This has happened to me as well when playing DVD Audio discs.

As mentioned above, the player will occasionally lock up and not respond to any remote or front panel commands. The only fix is to do a hard reboot by unplugging the power cord.
oh sh*t, that's rediculous! I just got mine in the mail, I'm hooking everything up as I speak. I hope this is not a on-going "universal" issue (especially @$1495.99).

My initial excitement with the 2930 picture has been tempered somewhat of late.

I'm finding the picture too yellow. Have spent hours with DVE trying to tweak it out.
Tried 480i out of the component outputs today (as opposed to HDMI) and it seemed a little better.
Not even sure if it's the TV or the player. Will try my old Toshiba tonight (component only) and see what happens.

oh sh*t, that's rediculous! I just got mine in the mail, I'm hooking everything up as I speak. I hope this is not a on-going "universal" issue (especially @$1495.99).

Glad you got your player safe and sound! Let us know what you think of it. I think the 3930 freezing issue(s) is a fairly rare occurance. Haven't read much about it in these threads at all. I agree I don't want it to freeze ever - even once. But it's an imperfect world . My Sony 9000 ($1495. list) and Denon 2900 ($1000. list) occasionally have had a freezing issue (lock-up) - but it's rare. Maybe 1 in 75 discs. However my Toshiba A-1 was terrible in this regard (1 in 10 discs).

Glad you got your player safe and sound! Let us know what you think of it.yeah, this is one heck of a nice machine (DVD-3930Ci)! Denon makes you feel like you have just bought a Porsche the way it comes packaged, even the manual design (maybe the price too).

Anyway, you guys made me a little paranoid about purchasing from non-authorized (good-priced) re-sellers, so I canceled my initial order with ButterflyPhoto and, instead, bought from Crutchfield (at full retail- wish I had that extra $500.00, oh well......). I do feel better about the purchase though, and I must admit Crutchfield is a first-rate operation, I will definitely buy from them in the future.

I'll definitely let you know my thoughts once I get everything set-up and running.

I'm primarily interested in good audio- ie. SACD, DVD-A, and regular CD audio. Although I'm excited to have 1080p scaling and all that as well. So I plan on using: (01) 2-channel analog OUT connection from 3930 to my NAD C162 pre-amp INP for CD audio; (01) 5.1 analog OUT connection set from 3930 to my Yamaha RX-V1600 multi-chan INP's for SACD and DVD-A; (01) HDMI OUT from 3930 to RX-V1600 HDMI INP for un-compressed DVD-Video/5.1 DolbyDigital, DTS, etc.,...; and maybe (01) digital optical, or coax, OUT from 3930 to Yamaha RX-V1600 digital optical, or coax, INP.

My initial excitement with the 2930 picture has been tempered somewhat of late.

I'm finding the picture too yellow. Have spent hours with DVE trying to tweak it out.
Tried 480i out of the component outputs today (as opposed to HDMI) and it seemed a little better.
Not even sure if it's the TV or the player. Will try my old Toshiba tonight (component only) and see what happens.

It's got to be your display or something else in the chain. I have not encountered this at all. I can tell you the grayscale of the player is spot on (I had my ISF tech run the numbers on the player with DVE from 20 IRE to 80 IRE) and the color decoding is good.

It's got to be your display or something else in the chain. I have not encountered this at all. I can tell you the grayscale of the player is spot on (I had my ISF tech run the numbers on the player with DVE from 20 IRE to 80 IRE) and the color decoding is good.

Watched the second Pirates of the Caribbean movie tonight on my old DVD player.
Different cables too.
Still yellow so it's gotta be the TV.
It's headed into the shop next month so I'll have them check it out.

The Denon picture is better but I have to give my old player credit; it puts up a good fight. The difference isn't night and day. Shadow detail and blacks are the main difference.

Anyway, you guys made me a little paranoid about purchasing from non-authorized (good-priced) re-sellers, so I canceled my initial order with ButterflyPhoto and, instead, bought from Crutchfield (at full retail- wish I had that extra $500.00, oh well......). I do feel better about the purchase though, and I must admit Crutchfield is a first-rate operation, I will definitely buy from them in the future.


Wondered if you canceled the Butterfly Photo order. After all the bad press - I would have too. Good to have that Denon warranty - just in case.
Crutchfield is the best. But you pay for that great service.
Let me know what you think about it's operation? (only complaint I've read is that it's response is kinda slow compared to prevoius machines)

Using HDMI?

The HDMI output on my 3930 crapped out in the middle of a movie but the component outputs continued to work for awhile but they too eventually died. The player is producing no video at all now but audio still works fine. Hopefully the replacement doesn't have similar fate and hopefully it'll also have no problem recognizing various disk media.

After a couple of weeks using this player I'd have to rank responsiveness pretty low. This is the slowest DVD player I've used (and my PMDT was no speed demon). I'm sure Denon did not want the 3930 responsiveness to rival the flagship (5910) but I do think they could have made a bit faster without dethroning the 5910.

Let me know what you think about it's operation? (only complaint I've read is that it's response is kinda slow compared to prevoius machines)you mean process time to read disc's is slow? My Sony DVP-NS90V is real slow as well.


Using HDMI?yeah, I want to experiment with un-compressed video processing. However, it's the audio-side of things that seem to get complicated (from what I've been reading here, as well as on the receiver threads)- seems there is confusion over LPCM and bit-stream, for 5.1 etc.,...But I plan to provide just about every type of audio connection- ie. analog OUT's (2-channel music- CD's); digital coax or optical (one or the other); HDMI.

What do you mean by un-compressed video processing?

larry

After a couple of weeks using this player I'd have to rank responsiveness pretty low. This is the slowest DVD player I've used (and my PMDT was no speed demon). I'm sure Denon did not want the 3930 responsiveness to rival the flagship (5910) but I do think they could have made a bit faster without dethroning the 5910.

Reason I still hang onto my 2900. It's lightning fast at virtually everything.

The Denon DVD-3930ci is indeed very slow (too slow) but a very good sounding player.

What is it that everyone does in these menus that makes this response issue so important? This has intrigued me for sometime.

99% of the time I just load the disk and press 'play'. (or maybe change to dts) and watch the movie from start to finish. Occassionally pause/resume which seem instantaneous or rewind a few seconds which also seems fine.

I must not be a typical user!

Is the 3930 any 'slower' than the 3910?

What do you mean by un-compressed video processing? all-digital, un-compressed signal provides (potentially) the highest quality video and audio, direct from the source.

What is it that everyone does in these menus that makes this response issue so important? This has intrigued me for sometime.

99% of the time I just load the disk and press 'play'. (or maybe change to dts) and watch the movie from start to finish. Occassionally pause/resume which seem instantaneous or rewind a few seconds which also seems fine.

I must not be a typical user!

Is the 3930 any 'slower' than the 3910?

Initial startup is slower (i.e. opening the disk tray), menu access is just a little bit faster in my experience.

Initial startup is slower (i.e. opening the disk tray), menu access is just a little bit faster in my experience.

But in my opinon still to slow.

it can be done a lot faster in other players.

all-digital, un-compressed signal provides (potentially) the highest quality video and audio, direct from the source. What player outputs compressed video? Video is compressed on the disc, that's it. Once it leaves the MPEG decoder it's uncompressed whether its final form is digital or analog.

larry

The 3930 is as slow as the 3910, which is as slow as the 5910, which is as slow as the 5900, and so on.. untill u reach 2900, which is really fast..

I find Denon's recent players are always much slower than the other makes. Skipping a chapter takes one full second (or more). The image practically freezes for a second. A pioneer 490 is instantaneous. A marantz 9600 is almost instantaneous. IMHO operation speed is never a strong point of these Denons.

What player outputs compressed video? Video is compressed on the disc, that's it. Once it leaves the MPEG decoder it's uncompressed whether its final form is digital or analog.So, other than combined multi-channel audio, HDMI is totally useless?

The 3930 is as slow as the 3910, which is as slow as the 5910, which is as slow as the 5900, and so on.. untill u reach 2900, which is really fast..
. IMHO operation speed is never a strong point of these Denons.what about sound-quality for CD, SACD, and DVD-A, compared to all these models?

Which is more important: the speed with which a disc is booted up, or the picture and sound quality that results once the disc is playing?

So, other than combined multi-channel audio, HDMI is totally useless? In theory analog and digital video should should eventually look the same when displayed. However, keeping things in the digital state all the way until a digital display lites the pixels is usaully the best way to go. The possible video degradation happens when the digital video stream is converted to analog and vice versa. Not maintaining a 75ohm signal path may cause issues also when using analog video.

larry

Which is more important: the speed with which a disc is booted up, or the picture and sound quality that results once the disc is playing?

Definitely most important are the results once the disc is playing. I almost never go into the menu. It's rare I even use the remote except to hit eject at the end of a film. And only occasionally I use chapter-up to get to a certain point for demo purposes. So maybe speed isn't all that important after all?

In theory analog and digital video should should eventually look the same when displayed. However, keeping things in the digital state all the way until a digital display lites the pixels is usaully the best way to go. The possible video degradation happens when the digital video stream is converted to analog and vice versa. Not maintaining a 75ohm signal path may cause issues also when using analog video.Thanks for you input. I've heard, or have read, similiar descriptions put as "less-compressed", since in digital form the process, essentailly, is not converted.

I guess it's possible that crappy D->A could compress the "dynamic range" of the video which could be referred to as "compressed", but that's going out of the way to make "compressed" fit here. :)

larry

Which is more important: the speed with which a disc is booted up, or the picture and sound quality that results once the disc is playing?

Good question.
Personally I can live with a slow player if the A and V performance is good.

This has come up before but I'm asking again because I need help with my decision.

I have a modest system: Arcam A85 Amp, 20 year old KEF 104.2 speakers
My Denon 2930 is used for SACD, DVD-A (and DVD-V until I go hi-rez).

I have 121 SACD , 16 DVD-A. It will rarely be used for redbook.
Those numbers will increase but not by much considering the lack of new releases.

Should I upgrade to the 3930 for another $430CDN ?

If I do the machine that plays maybe 200 - 250 hi-rez discs would be worth more than the CD player (Arcam CD82) that plays my 3000+ redbook CDs.

Decisions, decisions.......

WestCostD: audio wise, IMHO 5900/5910 is significantly better, but Marantz 9600 is not far apart (all using player's DA). 3930 is not as gd as the marantz. Pioneer etc are not so gd. So as a total package, 5910 should be the best player out there except for speeds.

Pete,John: which is more important ? well since we are in this forum, obviously the PQ/SQ is. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have flaws. I love the 3930's picture, but I still sold it in the end, because I find a better built 480i transport (like the Marantz 9600) suits my needs better. There are rumors Denon releasing a HQV equipped receiver with hidef sound decoding in CES, so with this in mind a nice solid build, fast 480i transport is better for my setup.

Even speaking of PQ, I have learned through my own experience that benchmarks are indicative at best, especially for those cadence detection/bad edit correction/etc. For this "all powerful" HQV realta, I have had a few discs that have severe stuttering. (a R3 local release of Jet Li's "Fearless", another R3 local release of "Just My Luck"). It's so severe it's totally unwatchable. The frames are jumping/skipping, like the HQV completely messed up the sequence. There is no combing, but there is sever loss of frames. Watching that on a Pio and a Maranztz (same deinterlacing I think) is completely smooth. Using the DVDO VP30 is also smooth. Even my PJ's own deinterlacer is smooth. But the Pio/Marantz failed the HQV racing car bad edit test. So who is better at bad edit correction ? In this particular case the Pio/Marantz is VASTLY better.

WestCostD: audio wise, IMHO 5900/5910 is significantly better, but Marantz 9600 is not far apart (all using player's DA). 3930 is not as gd as the marantz. Pioneer etc are not so gd. So as a total package, 5910 should be the best player out there except for speeds.wow, I thought I had nearly one of the best current players on the market. Oh well..........

AudioHolics review really raved about sound-quality on the 3930CI (also voted it "best player").

wow, I thought I had nearly one of the best current players on the market. Oh well..........



You do have one of the best.
There is always something a little better.
If there are only two ahead of you (the 5910 & 9600) I'd say you are a heck of a lot closer to the top than the bottom.

Which is more important: the speed with which a disc is booted up, or the picture and sound quality that results once the disc is playing?Well duh, obviously PQ is more important but the two aren't related - it is possible to have both. It's not like one has to sacrifice speed for PQ or vice versa. The fact is the 3930 is slow to respond. Most of the time it doesn't really matter too much but there are times the slow response is annoying. For example, if you walk up to the machine when it's off and hit the open drawer button it takes 10-15 seconds before it opens and that's pretty damn slow.

Well duh, obviously PQ is more important but the two aren't related - it is possible to have both. It's not like one has to sacrifice speed for PQ or vice versa. The fact is the 3930 is slow to respond. Most of the time it doesn't really matter too much but there are times the slow response is annoying. For example, if you walk up to the machine when it's off and hit the open drawer button it takes 10-15 seconds before it opens and that's pretty damn slow.

Just timed the 2900 from off - to drawer opening. Took only 5 seconds. But I could live with 10 or 15 seconds. Compared to the A1 - which can take up to 60 seconds (or longer).

What's the rush? Slow down...immerse yourself in the anticipation.

The fact is the 3930 is slow to respond. ... if you walk up to the machine when it's off and hit the open drawer button it takes 10-15 seconds before it opens and that's pretty damn slow.

thank you Geof ! so I'm not alone finding it annoying :)

U know sometimes I feel the menu speed of my XA1 (for example when traversing the DVE menus) is faster than the 3930 ...

(okay enough of this speed thing.... :) )

well....I thought I was about to upgrade, but no dice!

just got back from SoundAdvice (tweeter) and spent an hour or so with my friend who is the sale manager. I noticed he had a 3910 on the "discontinued" rack for sale, and he had a 3930 in one of the showrooms, connected to the Krell HS 7.1 processor, and amp, and some martin Logans. The display was a 60" pioneer plasma.

so for sh!ts and giggles I mentioned that I've been thinking of trying to upgrade my 3910 to the 3930, and he said he would give me the 3930 at his employee discount price If I wanted too! :cool: ...... so it was ON! I asked if we could hookup the 3910 as well, just to compare apples and apples, and thus, we took the 3910 to the room and the games begun!

Video:
obviously they were not calibrated, as I would in my home, but I double checked to make sure basic the basic menu settings were set properly (DNR, IRE, YCbCr on HDMI, and 1080i since the 3910 has only 1080i output, and the display is not capable of 1080p). In a nutshell, the 3930 did better than the 3910.....colors were more accurate, and noise levels were less. The faces details for example, looked more natural and with slight better detail to them. Additionally, there was a slight hint of Macroblocking on the 3910, and in the same scene it was not apparent on the 3930. Overall though, they were fairly close with the 3930 having an overall 10% improvement I would guestimate (color reproduction, black level, noise/detail level, etc).

Audio:
we spent several minutes disconnecting the 5.1 analog wires from one to the other (I think this is were he started to get annoyed with me I think...eheheh :p ), and connected it to the Krell 7.1 processor. Having the 3910 at home and loving the audio quality, I was expecting some improvement on the 3930.

Again, in a nutshell, the audio 3930 was actually worst than the 3910 :mad: . I double checked all the settings on the audio menus on both, to make sure the speaker settings, distances, and bass management stuff was properly setup and changed accordingly. On track after track, from Jeff Lorber's Flipside, to Pink Floyd, to Classical, the 3910 had better soundstaging, and much more pronounced detail. Again, overall I would say the 3910 had a 10% increase in audio compared to the newer 3930.


So at the end of the day, if I were to sell my 3910 on audiogon, for say $700, and were to get the 3930 at the discounted rate ($350 off msrp), I would be spending $400-$500 to get 10% improvement in video and 10% degredation in audio. :o

seeing as am more than happy with the video performance of the 3910, and I certainly do NOT want to lower my audio SQ, I decided not to take the offer and decided to stick with my current player. That money could go to getting a better blu-ray/HD-DVD player in the near future.

anyways, both great units.....I'm glad I went thru this exercise, as it relieved any uncertainties in my mind.

Cheers.

On the audio side, for regular music CDs, you should have tried comparing the players' respective two-channel analogue outputs. That's where I think you'd have noticed a difference owing to general improvements made there and the new Advanced AL24 processing on the '3930. Not that it would necessarily have changed your personal considerations and decision as you've explained them, but that is a key advantage of the newer model.

How interesting. I am not suprised by your video findings, but I am suprised by your audio findings. I simply don't understand that.

Ruin

For example, if you walk up to the machine when it's off and hit the open drawer button it takes 10-15 seconds before it opens and that's pretty damn slow.that's because it's "high-precision".

Again, in a nutshell, the audio 3930 was actually worst than the 3910 :mad: . I double checked all the settings on the audio menus on both, to make sure the speaker settings, distances, and bass management stuff was properly setup and changed accordingly. On track after track, from Jeff Lorber's Flipside, to Pink Floyd, to Classical, the 3910 had better soundstaging, and much more pronounced detail. Again, overall I would say the 3910 had a 10% increase in audio compared to the newer 3930.wow, thanks for your input, but hard to believe they would'nt at least be equal- with the 3930CI exhibiting better sound quality. I purchased the 3930CI for premium audio quality.

Just timed the 2900 from off - to drawer opening. Took only 5 seconds. But I could live with 10 or 15 seconds. Compared to the A1 - which can take up to 60 seconds (or longer).

If we are talking about from Standby (Red power light) then just pushing the Open button then the 3910 takes between 7 to 8 seconds. (Obviously if the green light is on then its immediate)

I take it the 3930 is just as fast?

I'm in-process of re-configuring my complete HT/audio system, which includes hooking-up my DVD-3930CI.

Is it okay, or wise, to provide multiple audio connections- ie. I'm using HDMI (for full video up-scale capability and digital audio), 2-channel analog audio OUT connections (to my NAD C162 stereo pre-amp- for regular CD audio play-back); 5.1 analog audio OUT connections (going to my Yamaha RX-V1600 multi-channel inputs for SACD and DVD-A); digital audio coax connection (for any audio sources not functioning thru HDMI audio?). Is this connection scenario okay you think?

There's nothing wrong with multiple audio connections -- some people like the option of listening through analogue connections where the player is doing most of the processing and digital, where the receiver does the work. The only thing that sounds redundant is using both coaxial and HDMI, especially since coaxial will not carry any signals that HDMI can't, e.g., SACD.

How interesting. I am not suprised by your video findings, but I am suprised by your audio findings. I simply don't understand that.
Ruin
wow, thanks for your input, but hard to believe they would'nt at least be equal- with the 3930CI exhibiting better sound quality. I purchased the 3930CI for premium audio quality.

yup...I'm just as surprised. I had heard from a good friend who went thru the upgrade from the 3910 to 3930 to 5910 eventually, that he noticed a slight decrease in audio reproduction when he went thru his venture (on the 3930), but I could not believe it myself, particularly with the advanced AL24+.

Those of you who know me from last year in this subforum, and from the display and subwoofer forums, know that I go through audio equipment like old clothes :D ....believe me, I was ready to plunk down and get the upgrade done, but the audio findings were not to my liking. On Norah Jones and Pink Floyd's SACD for multi-channel, on Jeff Lorber's CD for two channel, and on a couple of movies, the 3910 showed better acoustical detail every time. We are not talking night and day here, but enough to tell in my ear, which I'm pretty anal about.

again, the main conclusion I would say is that both are great units and built like tanks equally....I just wished the audio would have been "better".

ssabripo, I wonder if your video comparison would have been different if you used 720p out from the 3910. As you know, Pioneer plasmas are notorious for MB, and the Secret's review of the 3910 mentioned some MB at 1080i out but no MB at 720p out (and I see none with my DLP at 720p out).

I decided a while ago not to upgrade from the 3910 to the 3930 due to the cost and the fear of problems going HDMI-to-DVI with the 3930. I went with the Tosh A2 instead for HD-DVDs, and stuck with the 3910 for SD DVDs (which look fantastic to me) and for SACD/DVD-A. Now, if only Denon will come out with a true universal in the next year or two for HD-DVD, BD, and SACD!!!

One thing I thought of after reading ssabripo's review: The 3910 is 8bit video and the 3930 is 10bit, yes? Depending on the TV the does (can it accept 10bit video?) then that probably made the difference in "color" PQ if there was any. The 3910 and 3930 should both properly decode the video stream so there would no difference in color on a digital connection using same size color components (8bit) after the TV is properly calibrated to the player. If there was a difference, it must have been due to 8bit vs 10bit - where you could see a difference.

larry

Another possibility is that Faroudja is doing chroma filtering to mask CUE, where as the Realta isn't in the 3930; it's been speculated that this filtering may work against color rendition.

I'm leaning towards the filtering on the 3930 vs 3910 for the main cause of the color rendering differences.....mind you, we are talking small differences here. I dont know which Mpeg decoder is on the 3930, but the ESS on the 3910 does a very good job, and the mpeg codec is not gonna affect the coloring. I doubt the 8 bit vs 10 bit is even noticeable on a Pioneer Plasma 768p.

BillP, I did not try 720p to be honest, since time and time again the 3910 showed better pic on 1080i vs 720p on most of my displays, including my Pioneer Elite Plasma 1130. So I just switched both to 1080i and went on..........honestly, the MB didn't bother me too much, as it was very minor on the dark scene we tried, and I know what to expect. The Color reproduction, the noise levels and detail levels on the 3930 were slightly better, ergo the 10% number I threw out.

something definitely changed on the audio side though, and it aint for the better :confused:

both are great units and built like tanks equally....I just wished the audio would have been "better".have you read the AudioHolics review? it's very interesting, it received 5-stars for audio-quality. Also, a major step above a DVD-3910CI.
http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/denon-DVD-3930CI-DVD-playerp1.php

I doubt the 8 bit vs 10 bit is even noticeable on a Pioneer Plasma 768p. What's 768p?? :)

larry

have you read the AudioHolics review? it's very interesting, it received 5-stars for audio-quality. Also, a major step above a DVD-3910CI.
http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/denon-DVD-3930CI-DVD-playerp1.php

The 3910 also received 5 stars for audio in its AudioHolics review.

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/DenonDVD3910Review7.php

There's nothing wrong with multiple audio connections -- some people like the option of listening through analogue connections where the player is doing most of the processing and digital, where the receiver does the work. The only thing that sounds redundant is using both coaxial and HDMI, especially since coaxial will not carry any signals that HDMI can't, e.g., SACD.thanks for your input. Yeah, I'm a little confused whether to just provide, both, the HDMI and digital coax connections. After reading through the manual a little, I noticed different charts with comments stating certain audio sources may not play thru HDMI audio, but, will play thru digital coax (or optical), etc.,...

have you read the AudioHolics review? it's very interesting, it received 5-stars for audio-quality. Also, a major step above a DVD-3910CI.
http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/denon-DVD-3930CI-DVD-playerp1.php
Yes....I've read it weeks ago. and just read again.

Not sure why you are taking my comments as a bad thing, as this is my own experience and not a knock against the 3930 nor a general statement about the 3930 as a whole, which I know you just purchased (thus the defensiveness....I understand).

just to clarify YOUR statement though, nowhere in the article does it state the 3930 was "a major step up above the 3910" :confused: Not sure if you meant that that is what you think, or what you thought you read in the article.

also, the 3910 had its 5 star status as well:
http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/DenonDVD3910Review7.php

Again, not trying to get into a pissing contest, but this is my experience and my test alone. Feel free to call Sam (sale manager) at Plantation, Florida's SoundAdvice and ask about this if you have doubts....his ears had the same experience mine did. Both were superb, with the 3930 edgeing in video and 3910 in audio....

Not sure if you meant that that is what you think, or what you thought you read in the article.....yeah, it's what I conveyed from the article(s), for, both, the DVD-3910CI and DVD-3930CI.

I currently own the 3910, and not sure if this will be a significant upgrade, although I am using a
Sony Pearl 1080p projector so it could be. But then again I could by the new Oppo for a very marginal price and almost have similar video quality from what I have read and seen so far.

I currently own the 3910, and not sure if this will be a significant upgrade, although I am using a
Sony Pearl 1080p projector so it could be. But then again I could by the new Oppo for a very marginal price and almost have similar video quality from what I have read and seen so far.

I don't know...I guess it depends on how you define "similar." I used to have the 971 and my 2930 is noticably better - more than what I would call "similar" - although the 971/981 is still a very good player.

yeah, it's what I conveyed from the article(s), for, both, the DVD-3910CI and DVD-3930CI.
:confused: Dunno how since the word "3910" is not even mentioned in the article, but hey....

I currently own the 3910, and not sure if this will be a significant upgrade, although I am using a
Sony Pearl 1080p projector so it could be. But then again I could by the new Oppo for a very marginal price and almost have similar video quality from what I have read and seen so far.
I have the 971 upstairs in my bedroom...it is outstanding, but not as good as the 3910 or 3930. There is more to a player to make the PQ than just the chipset....the mpeg decoder, the filters, etc, they all contribute to it. You can't beat the PQ of the Oppo bang for Buck, but price aside, the 3910/3930 is superior.

I have the Denon DVD-2930CI and cannot get my display to sync when set to 1080p output. I have the Denon going through a Marantz SR8001 receiver (1080p capable) then to my JVC 61FN97 which accepts 1080p. When set to 1080i, the display is fine.

Has anyone else had any luck getting 1080p to work? Also, if you had an issue with 1080p - were you able to get it to work and if so, how? I looked at Denon's web site and could not find any firmware upgrades for the 2930.

Thanks

How are you connecting it? HDMI or component?

Ruin

I used to have the 971 and my 2930 is noticably better

I'm glad to hear you say this because my nephew claims I should ditch the 2930 and buy two Oppos, one for upstairs in the Theatre room and another downstairs for audio. (no...he doesn't work for Oppo ;))

He loves his 971 but I can definitely see MB on his Aquos 52"

:confused: Dunno how since the word "3910" is not even mentioned in the article, but hey....then you have'nt read the same article?
http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/denon-DVD-3930CI-DVD-playerp1.php

DavidHir/ssabripo: I guess I should have been more clear... I was talking about the newest Oppo player..... >>>>>
http://www.oppodigital.com/dv981hd/dv981hd_index.html

I saw this in action against the Denon-2930CI, on video it was a toss up, didn't have time to review the audio. Like I stated I have the 3910, dealer said he would give me a decent trade, just not sure if it is worth the extra cash to get a slightly better upgrade at best. I could be wrong, has anyone besides the review below had a chance to test it?

WestCostD: Yup, first page has the comparisons between the 3910 and the newer 3930ci..

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/denon-DVD-3930CI-DVD-playerp1.php

How are you connecting it? HDMI or component?

I am connecting it via HDMI.

Thanks

I finally got the 2930, and I'm very happy with the picture after calibrating using DVE. But some advice on a few things would be great.

First of all, how do you guys use the noise reduction functions?
I'm not completely sure what the MPEG noise reduction does, but the DNR seem to soften the image a bit while removing the worst grain/noise. I'm leaving DNR on 1 for now, and MPEG noise reduction on 0.

I have it hooked up to a BenQ 8720 over HDMI, and turning sharpness up in the 2930 menu doesn't seem to affect the image. Should I just leave it be and use the result I got by calibrating the sharpness in the projector's menu?

I'm not touching Chroma, Gamma, Hue and other parameters, because I wouldn't know what to look for.

Advice and tips on how to get the most out of the 2930 is much apreciated. :)

Oh, and is YCbCr better than an RGB signal?

then you have'nt read the same article?
http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/denon-DVD-3930CI-DVD-playerp1.php
I have....and I still don't see where it says the 3930 is "a major step up from the 3910"

perhaps you deduced that from the first page's hardware comparison....or perhaps from comments such as:
But the DVD-3930CI has a slightly more refined look that takes away some of the “my middle school art student designed this interface” feel that plagued Denon until now. You also have more direct access over each function with global, tab-based navigation.
nowhere in the article, once it gets to the actual review, does it mention the audio performance comparison to the 3910, much less the "major step up"....

West, again, you seem to be defensive and agitated about my findings... dunno why, but hey... you've got an outstanding player, and certainly a worthy successor to the 3910. I'm not gonna get into a pissing contest with a fellow Denon DVD player and Yammy 2700 owner ;)

DavidHir/ssabripo: I guess I should have been more clear... I was talking about the newest Oppo player..... >>>>>
http://www.oppodigital.com/dv981hd/dv981hd_index.html

I saw this in action against the Denon-2930CI, on video it was a toss up, didn't have time to review the audio. Like I stated I have the 3910, dealer said he would give me a decent trade, just not sure if it is worth the extra cash to get a slightly better upgrade at best. I could be wrong, has anyone besides the review below had a chance to test it?

can't tell you about the 981 :o

I can only tell you about the 971, and I would think that the 981 and 971 are pretty much identical with the exception of the on board HDMI port, black color, and 1080p....

my suggestion is that you check out the 3910 in person, perhaps even take the oppo if you have it, and do a mano a mano. I did this several times and it aliviated any doubts of what "forum member reviews" and other say....from the 2900 to thr 2910 to the pio 59avi to the Integra 10.1 to the 3910 and now 3930, I always test them or at least buy them locally so I can return it in case it doesn't meet my standards.

I am connecting it via HDMI.

Thanks

If you connect directly to the TV, and not through the receiver, do you have the same issue?


Ruin

Im new here, and I swear I tried reading the whole thread before posting this, but I simply cant do it anymore...my eyes are hurting...so Im posting some questions...sorry if its repeated:

Im in the search for a super great SD DVD player...and it has to read all regions, do PAL to NTSC conversion and output trough HDMI 1080i (My HDTV max resolution)

I know that model 2930 (europe) can do PAL/NTSC conversion, but is it region free? And is it possible to enter a code to the 2930ci (USA) to make it region free? Does it have a PAL/NTSC converter to play PAL discs in a NTSC HDTV?

Can those last denon players turn off the FBI warnings?

Im thinking of placing a vcr on top of those vents shafts....how killing is that for the player?

CONTINUES IN THE POST BELOW

The latest denon players are 2930, 3930 and A1XVA (for europe), the last one being the flagship (check denon UK) How do they compare in terms of image quality between each other? Im using only a 30 inch HDTV...I dont know if the extra money is worth it....I dont give a damm about sound...lol

....in fact, i dunno if I should really get a Denon 2930 uk model or buy a Neodigits HDV-2085, a Oppo or a Cambridge...or even an Arcam....Im new to this world and i dunno wich players are better......since im running a small screen (for HDTV) I wonder if the helios from neodigits is the best choise...I loved its design, its cheap and region free out of the box. I must say though that im a movieholic, and I will gladly pay the price for a Denon if someone assure me its better....I need some info....

Im leaning toward the uk version cause i dunno if the usa version can do the conversion, plus its black...i love silver....where can i get the uk version in the usa? if it doesnt exists, is anyone in the UK who wants to serve as a distributer? We can make some sort of deal....


Thanks to anyone who read this....

I'm not gonna get into a pissing contest with a fellow Denon DVD player and Yammy 2700 ownerno, I'm not thinking on these lines at all (ie. "pissing contest", or anything like that- although I do have a full-bladder right now :D ).

However I can't readily accept that the DVD-3910CI is [noticeably] better in sound-quality/charateristics than the DVD-3930CI until I hear it for myself, that's all. I can understand both being very close in comparison, but the DVD-3910CI significantly better?

The fact that the article explains, for example, that the DVD-3930CI has (unprecedented) separate discrete power-supply components for, both, the video and audio sections; Burr Brown DAC's of at least equal quality; separate analog channels for 5.1 and stereo, etc.,...tells me that Denon made serious considerations for optimizing audio quality to another level beyond it's predecessor. This is much like what goes into a high-end (or "flagship") receiver.

So, essentially, I have to hear the comparison for myself to believe it...........

I finally got the 2930, and I'm very happy with the picture after calibrating using DVE. But some advice on a few things would be great.

First of all, how do you guys use the noise reduction functions?
I'm not completely sure what the MPEG noise reduction does, but the DNR seem to soften the image a bit while removing the worst grain/noise. I'm leaving DNR on 1 for now, and MPEG noise reduction on 0.

I have it hooked up to a BenQ 8720 over HDMI, and turning sharpness up in the 2930 menu doesn't seem to affect the image. Should I just leave it be and use the result I got by calibrating the sharpness in the projector's menu?

I'm not touching Chroma, Gamma, Hue and other parameters, because I wouldn't know what to look for.

Advice and tips on how to get the most out of the 2930 is much apreciated. :)

Oh, and is YCbCr better than an RGB signal?

The noise reduction features are useless because they remove detail even at +1.

The 2930 sharpness settings can be beneficial, but it depends on your display's sharpness setting/EE settings/output. Use the Avia sharpness pattern and try to balance the frequency sweep "intensity" as much as possible (located on top and bottom of pattern). For MY display, I have found +2 beneficial for high frequency sharpness. I've also experimented with the "Enhancer." For me, it does give extra crispness but I'm finding it tends to accentuate compression artifacts a little too much. Leaving it off keeps the image a bit smoother for me. Your mileage may vary.

Calibrate color, tint, brightness, etc. through Avia or DVE on your display. Leave the player's settings here.

YCbCr does 10 bit processing which is good if your display accepts it. Mine does not so it clips whites and blacks, hence, I use RGB.

I'm glad to hear you say this because my nephew claims I should ditch the 2930 and buy two Oppos, one for upstairs in the Theatre room and another downstairs for audio. (no...he doesn't work for Oppo ;))

He loves his 971 but I can definitely see MB on his Aquos 52"

The 2930 is a bit sharper, yet retains the "smoothness," has better color "pop," and notably better gamma/shadow detail. Also, there is no slight underscanning like the 971/981.

Ah, yes, no MB to worry about. :)

DavidHir/ssabripo: I guess I should have been more clear... I was talking about the newest Oppo player..... >>>>>
http://www.oppodigital.com/dv981hd/dv981hd_index.html

I saw this in action against the Denon-2930CI, on video it was a toss up, didn't have time to review the audio. Like I stated I have the 3910, dealer said he would give me a decent trade, just not sure if it is worth the extra cash to get a slightly better upgrade at best. I could be wrong, has anyone besides the review below had a chance to test it?

WestCostD: Yup, first page has the comparisons between the 3910 and the newer 3930ci..

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/denon-DVD-3930CI-DVD-playerp1.php

Trust me, once the 971/981 and 2930 are each properly calibrated to a good display with proper grayscale in a light controlled environment, the 2930 is noticably better.

One could argue (subjectively, anyway) if it's $500 better, but it's definitely better.

thanks for your input. Yeah, I'm a little confused whether to just provide, both, the HDMI and digital coax connections. After reading through the manual a little, I noticed different charts with comments stating certain audio sources may not play thru HDMI audio, but, will play thru digital coax (or optical), etc.,...
Well I tell ya...
I use the HDMI to my Monitor that has a couple small speakers attached to it for non-serious listening of certain TV shows (news, SD comedy, etc.).

I have a Denon Rcvr, so I'm connected to it via the D-link AND 2-ch analog stereo.

As an alternative to the D-link, for a while I used the 5.1 analog out, 2-ch analog out, and Toslink out. It worked very well... but I found that there was little advantage of using the 5.1 (analog) AND Toslink vs. the D-link. They were too similar to justify all the cables.

I'd go with those 3 simultaneous connections if I did not have the D-link. The 5.1 analog for multi-ch music, the Toslink for DTS & DD, and the 2-ch analog for serious 2-ch music.

shane

I'd go with those 3 simultaneous connections if I did not have the D-link. The 5.1 analog for multi-ch music, the Toslink for DTS & DD, and the 2-ch analog for serious 2-ch music.thanks, yeah, that's essentially what I'm doing. Although I want to use HDMI primarily for video, as I want 480i/1080p capability. I'm trying to understand the manual more, I guess I should be able to set, or "assign", digital audio to which-ever source (ie. HDMI, or coax, or optical)?

Im new here, and I swear I tried reading the whole thread before posting this, but I simply cant do it anymore...my eyes are hurting...so Im posting some questions...sorry if its repeated:

Im in the search for a super great SD DVD player...and it has to read all regions, do PAL to NTSC conversion and output trough HDMI 1080i (My HDTV max resolution)

I know that model 2930 (europe) can do PAL/NTSC conversion, but is it region free? And is it possible to enter a code to the 2930ci (USA) to make it region free? Does it have a PAL/NTSC converter to play PAL discs in a NTSC HDTV?

Can those last denon players turn off the FBI warnings?

Im thinking of placing a vcr on top of those vents shafts....how killing is that for the player?

CONTINUES IN THE POST BELOW

The USA version does converstion also. If you look through the thread you will see that there are methods (code inputs) to make the 2930 and 3930 region free.

I have not seen a way to turn of the FBI warnings, but it never occured to me to look for such.

These beasts run hot. You do NOT want to place another component on top in my opinion.

As to your second post, if I was going to buy one of these expensive high end DVD players, I might consider my needs if I was to upgrade my TV in the future. Will you always me using your 30" TV? The 3930 is better than the 2930 in the video department, but it is mostly a matter of degree. I think watching TV on a 30 incher would bother me more than any differences between the two players. :)
If you don't care about audio, then go 2930. No need to waste money of the 3930.

Ruin

If you connect directly to the TV, and not through the receiver, do you have the same issue?


No when I go direct to the TV - 1080p works. I think that my receiver (Marantz SR8001) is the culprit.

The receiver sounds great - but one of the reasons I purchased it was to switch 1080p since I own the Denon and a PS3. I don't know whether it is worth returning the receiver for a different model. My TV (JVC 61FN97) does a fairly good job deinterlacing 1080i and I would hate to give up sound quality - unless the picture would be noticeably better outputting 1080p directly from the Denon and Sony.

Has anyone had any luck with other receivers passing 1080p?

Thanks

If you don't care about audio, then go 2930. No need to waste money of the 3930.

Ruin

How big of a difference is the audio between the 2930 vs 3930?

I keep reading it's considerable however on my comparisons I found the 3930 was a bit better on SACD but the difference wasn't huge.

Are the biggest improvements on redbook CD?

DavidHir:
Thanks a lot for taking the time to answer my questions. I appreaciate it.

I too feel that noise reduction does more harm than good. I'll probably turn this function off.

I'll experiment more with the sharpness in the 2930 menu to see if it helps.

I used DVE to calibrate color, brightness, contrast and sharpness. I think skin tones looks really good, but how do I calibrate tint with DVE?

My projector has a 10 bit chip, so I guess YCbCr is the right choice. I do however believe that the blacker than black bar in chapter two on the DVE wasn't visible.

English is not my first language, so please excuse any bad grammar.

Thanks for the reply Ruin.....I currently own the Samsung slimfit direct view crt 30 inch widescreen HDTV, its max resolution is 1080i HDMI. I dont need a bigger screen cause I seat very VERY close to the TV. Its alredy giant from where I wacth (sometimes i even pull the couch back a little) I wish I could put my hands on a 1080p crt tough, but I believe they many never get manufactured....I plan on keeping this TV for a long time..

Again, can someone post how to make the 2930ci region free? Plus, can it read region 4 (PAL-M) and convert to NTSC?

Ive decided that I will buy the Neodigits HDV2085 to start with....I may get the Denon if I dont get satisfied...since im running a small screen, it may work. Plus, the neogidts certaily play all regions....I leave in Brasil and I need to play region 1, 2 and 4...

By the way, we are ****ed up here, you have no idea how lucky u are leaving in Europe/USA. We may neve see the light of Blueray/HDVD and a horrible HDD recorder retails for 2000 dollars.

I will try to post my impressions of the Helios....being a movieholic, I will probably get a better DVD player when the price comes down.

How big of a difference is the audio between the 2930 vs 3930?

I keep reading it's considerable however on my comparisons I found the 3930 was a bit better on SACD but the difference wasn't huge.

Are the biggest improvements on redbook CD?

See, I have never understood how anyone of us can quantify this. I see people write, "10% better." What? In what way? Listening impressions are veru subjective. The only way to really know is to get them both hooked up to the same system and A/B it.

There are some improvements that showup when AL24 processing is in effect. The real question is, do you have the audio resolution in the rest of your system to hear the incremental improvement? My resoning behind getting the 3930 was simply that I figured that this may well be my last Universal player that does NOT play either of the HD formats. I wanted the best audio and video that my system could get, without spending 3 times as much for an incremental improvement that I would not hear without upgrading the rest of my system. I think the 3930 is the best out there at its price point, and in no way would it be worth the dollars to me
to pay 2 or 3 times the price for subtle improvements.

Ruin

I'm not looking for a number. A agree that you can't quantify these things.

I'm thinking "in what way is it better?"

Is the bass tighter, soundstage deeper etc.

It is in the latter department that I noticed a difference between the the 2930 and 3930.
Observations/comparisons from others are almost always useful :)

No, don't let our sound impressions sway you. If YOU notice a difference then you should use that as your criteria. Seriously. I feel that in video you can really quantify things better. There are things about sound that are ephemeral, subtle, etc. etc.

Ruin

DavidHir:
Thanks a lot for taking the time to answer my questions. I appreaciate it.

I too feel that noise reduction does more harm than good. I'll probably turn this function off.

I'll experiment more with the sharpness in the 2930 menu to see if it helps.

I used DVE to calibrate color, brightness, contrast and sharpness. I think skin tones looks really good, but how do I calibrate tint with DVE?

My projector has a 10 bit chip, so I guess YCbCr is the right choice. I do however believe that the blacker than black bar in chapter two on the DVE wasn't visible.

English is not my first language, so please excuse any bad grammar.

Yes, the noise reduction does mask compression artifacts, but makes the image a bit softer and removes detail. For a real good example, put in a DVD where there is a dark scene with good shadow detail. Pause the scene - then flip back and forth between the DNR settings. Now, the specific MPEG is absoutely horrible - it's just an "on" and "off" setting which will make the image look like a nice piece of plastic.

The goal with DVE and tint is to use the blue filter and try to have all of the boxes as evenly blue with the background as much as possible. This might require you to enter your display's service menu to adjust for individual red and green tint for optimization - this is the case with my display. Of course, color also affects tint setting. However, I DO NOT recommend you entering your service menu unless you absolutely know what you are doing as you can cause permanent damage to your display as some people have done. Does your display have individual tint settings in the user menu?

Yes, I too experienced black and white clipping with YCbCr - I assumed this was because my display is 8 bit as others on the forum have told me they see no clipping with YCbCr.

Thanks again, DavidHir!

Oh, so I just use the color filters when calibrating tint. Good to know. I've been in the service menu, although I shouldn't, but I'm pretty sure there's a tint adjustment in the main menu.

I'm gonna try swithing to RGB and see if blacker than black appears. I find it strange if this player can't produce BTB.

Getting deeper into setting-up my system, including my DVD-3930CI.

I'm using HDMI for cable-box (SA8300HD), DVD-3930CI, and Sony RDR-HX715 DVR/Hard-drive, all interfaced to a Yamaha RX-V1600 receiver, with HDMI MONITOR OUT to (HP LC2640N HDTV) DVI input.

Seems I'm getting good video via-digital cable, and Sony DVR/Hard-drive, however, not getting anything (video) with DVD-3930CI (just a blue screen, with message "DVI No Signal"), which I can't understand.

So after reading through manual again I noticed a small statement (on page 11): "While the DVD-3930CI can be connected to a TV with a HDMI/DVI-D conversion cable, but, depending on the combination of devices, in some cases no picture will be output."

Hmmmmm, I guess HDMI/DVI configuration is not working in my case? Therefore will have to just switch everything to component-video (damn-it). Or maybe I could just switch (only) the DVD-3930CI to component-video?

Yes, the noise reduction does mask compression artifacts, but makes the image a bit softer and removes detail. For a real good example, put in a DVD where there is a dark scene with good shadow detail. Pause the scene - then flip back and forth between the DNR settings.I don't see any significant softening on the 3930 with Mosquito NR turned on and even if I did it becomes a matter of personal preference as to which is the lessor of evils. To my eye Mosquito Noise (MN) is more obtrusive than some subtle overall softening. Sitting 10' back I'm hard pressed to see any loss of detail with MNR turned on but that's not the case with MN which can been seen 10' from the screen. To be sure not every disk needs MNR turned on, and it certainly would be nice if the MNR algorithms could be improved, but the 3930 MNR works pretty damned effectively.

Getting deeper into setting-up my system, including my DVD-3930CI.

I'm using HDMI for cable-box (SA8300HD), DVD-3930CI, and Sony RDR-HX715 DVR/Hard-drive, all interfaced to a Yamaha RX-V1600 receiver, with HDMI MONITOR OUT to (HP LC2640N HDTV) DVI input.

Seems I'm getting good video via-digital cable, and Sony DVR/Hard-drive, however, not getting anything (video) with DVD-3930CI (just a blue screen, with message "DVI No Signal"), which I can't understand.

So after reading through manual again I noticed a small statement (on page 11): "While the DVD-3930CI can be connected to a TV with a HDMI/DVI-D conversion cable, but, depending on the combination of devices, in some cases no picture will be output."

Hmmmmm, I guess HDMI/DVI configuration is not working in my case? Therefore will have to just switch everything to component-video (damn-it). Or maybe I could just switch (only) the DVD-3930CI to component-video?
Your 3930 is connected to HDMI on the Yammy, not DVI on the HP. It should work if the other HDMI devices work. The usual problems with HDMI->DVI are 1) DVI is not HDCP compliant 2) HDCP handshaking/setup to some older DVI/HDCP devices (and HDMI devices for that matter). I think you're hitting some other issue that you haven't figured out yet. :)

larry

I don't see any significant softening on the 3930 with Mosquito NR turned on and even if I did it becomes a matter of personal preference as to which is the lessor of evils. To my eye Mosquito Noise (MN) is more obtrusive than some subtle overall softening. Sitting 10' back I'm hard pressed to see any loss of detail with MNR turned on but that's not the case with MN which can been seen 10' from the screen. To be sure not every disk needs MNR turned on, and it certainly would be nice if the MNR algorithms could be improved, but the 3930 MNR works pretty damned effectively.

Geof,

What size is your screen? I don't think it's "significant," but there is a bit of softening and loss of detail - at least with the 2930 - not sure if these user settings are implemented the same way with the Realta chipset (though I suspect they are). I'm usually not big on filtering images to make them "cleaner," noise or not because there is always a compromise IMO as there is with my display and 2930. However, as you said, it's personal preference and may depend on the disc especially if the noise is really bad.

The usual problems with HDMI->DVI are 1) DVI is not HDCP compliant 2) HDCP handshaking/setup to some older DVI/HDCP devices (and HDMI devices for that matter). I think you're hitting some other issue that you haven't figured out yet.thanks for your input............yeah, I'm thinking my particular combination of devices is not allowing for the HDMI/DVI conversion to work properly.

My HP LCD TV (HPLC2640N) is HDCP compliant (with DVI-D). Actually I made a point to speak with HP Customer Service in regards to this and they confirmed that everything should work. These TV's were manufactured in 2004, so it's sort of "1rst Generation" HDTV stuff. Although it has a beautiful picture using component-video.

Another thing I notice using HDMI/DVI-D connection is the picture (via-HD digital cable source), while sharp and clean looking, exhibits a slight whitish "haze".

Also, not sure if I'm doing things correctly during "set-up" process on the DVD-3930CI (I guess I am?).

I'm gonna switch my DVD-3930CI for component-video OUT right now to see the difference in behavior.

I'll probably just wait and get a new (1080p) HDMI HDTV, and then switch everything to HDMI.

I switched to RGB, and BTB appeared. I live in Europe, so maybe it has something to do with PAL. Should I stay with RGB then?

I switched to RGB, and BTB appeared.what's "BTB"?

thanks for your input............yeah, I'm thinking my particular combination of devices is not allowing for the HDMI/DVI conversion to work properly.

My HP LCD TV (HPLC2640N) is HDCP compliant (with DVI-D). Actually I made a point to speak with HP Customer Service in regards to this and they confirmed that everything should work. These TV's were manufactured in 2004, so it's sort of "1rst Generation" HDTV stuff. Although it has a beautiful picture using component-video.

Another thing I notice using HDMI/DVI-D connection is the picture (via-HD digital cable source), while sharp and clean looking, exhibits a slight whitish "haze".

Also, not sure if I'm doing things correctly during "set-up" process on the DVD-3930CI (I guess I am?).

I'm gonna switch my DVD-3930CI for component-video OUT right now to see the difference in behavior.

I'll probably just wait and get a new (1080p) HDMI HDTV, and then switch everything to HDMI.
Did you try connecting the 3930 straight to the TV? It should work. Also, BTB is "blacker than black". Get your system working and then when you start to get into calibration, BTB will come into play.

larry

I switched to RGB, and BTB appeared. I live in Europe, so maybe it has something to do with PAL. Should I stay with RGB then?
PAL and RGB or YCbCr have no interdependencies.

larry

PAL and RGB or YCbCr have no interdependencies.

larry

Thanks for your answer.

I had to look up that last word, but I understood what you meant. ;)

So do you think I should send a RGB or a YCbCr signal over HDMI?
I've tried reading up on these two signals, but I haven't figured out which signal is the best. Information would be great.

Did you try connecting the 3930 straight to the TV?Thanks, yeah, right now I have both, HDMI/DVI cable directly connected (from DVD-3930CI to TV), and component-video (coming from cable-box to RX-V1600 to DVD-3930CI).

When I switch around TV input select I get video with component-video connection, however, I'm experiencing the same "DVI No Signal" message when I switch to DVI connection.

So, I guess this tells me that the DVD-3930CI does'nt like the HP-LC2640N DVI input?

I'm gonna play around with the DVD-3930CI "set-up" menu some to see if I'm missing something.

At this point I have completely removed HDMI.

I'm using component-video (going to RX-V1600 component-video INP); digital-coax (going to RX-V1600 digital-audio INP); 5.1ch Audio OUT (going to RX-V1600 multi-channel INP's); 2ch Audio OUT (going to NAD C162 pre-amp "CD" INP's).

I'm getting good video via-component-video.

However, while stepping through "SETUP" menu's, for the "Audio settings" menu (page 22), I can jump down to "COMPRESSION" selection, but it does not allow me to access any of the other selections- ie. "AUDIO CHANNEL", "DIGITAL OUTPUT", "DOWN SAMPLING", "SOURCE DIRECT", or "BASS ENHANCER". Is this normal? (I don't think so)

Geof,

What size is your screen? I don't think it's "significant," but there is a bit of softening and loss of detail - at least with the 2930 - not sure if these user settings are implemented the same way with the Realta chipset (though I suspect they are). I'm usually not big on filtering images to make them "cleaner," noise or not because there is always a compromise IMO as there is with my display and 2930. However, as you said, it's personal preference and may depend on the disc especially if the noise is really bad.I have a 60" SXRD.

Can you see the slight loss of detail from your seat or are you near the screen when observing this? What size is your screen and how far back do you sit?

Thanks for your answer.

I had to look up that last word, but I understood what you meant. ;)

So do you think I should send a RGB or a YCbCr signal over HDMI?
I've tried reading up on these two signals, but I haven't figured out which signal is the best. Information would be great.RGB has 8 bit color. YCbCr from the new Denon players is 10 bit color. If your display works with 10 bits use YCbCr.

However, while stepping through "SETUP" menu's, for the "Audio settings" menu (page 22), I can jump down to "COMPRESSION" selection, but it does not allow me to access any of the other selections- ie. "AUDIO CHANNEL", "DIGITAL OUTPUT", "DOWN SAMPLING", "SOURCE DIRECT", or "BASS ENHANCER". Is this normal? (I don't think so)
Yes, it is. If you disable Denon Link, you'll see that all of the audio menu selections will become available.

I have a 60" SXRD.

Can you see the slight loss of detail from your seat or are you near the screen when observing this? What size is your screen and how far back do you sit?

I observe it from my seat - I'm sitting between 9 and 10 feet back from a 57" - dark room.

RGB has 8 bit color. YCbCr from the new Denon players is 10 bit color. If your display works with 10 bits use YCbCr.

Ok, so it's not a big deal if it doesn't show blacker than black?

I thought you lost some shadow detail when a DVD player clips black, but I'm probably wrong.

Didn't someone in this thread mention that a TV with a DVI input, rather than HDMI, cannot accept 10-bit color? If that's true and you have such a TV, is it better to set the player's menu to output the signal in RGB format rather than YCbCr?

Ok, so it's not a big deal if it doesn't show blacker than black?

I thought you lost some shadow detail when a DVD player clips black, but I'm probably wrong.


You are correct, you do lose shadow detail when your DVDP does not do blacker than black. I have actually shot pictures of the differences, my 35mm Canon Photura - the same one that did my website cover - had no problems picking up the differences on film, and the prints show it definitively.

The black floor gets raised, as if your optics were dirty, and all shadow detail below a certain level just isn't there, as if your gamma were set horribly wrong.

It really showed up in certain dark scenes of Fifth Element, like when the good aliens were hulkiing down the hall towards the camera to the great room near the beginning of the movie, and were being backlit. Even on the regular, non-SuperBit version. On a player that does not do BTB, you can't see the details of the alien's front, on the closeup of the single alien - his face, etc. They just don't show up.

On a player that can, all else being equal - the optics are perfectly clean on the display showing both players - you can. The details are all there, and sumptuously.

The printed inclusion on this phenom that came with the original VE, re. using the pluge pattern to know, is the best way to see if your player can do it or not.


Mr Bob

Mr Bob,
Are you saying to not use the 10 bit YCbCr output from Denon DVD players??? I'm not clear if using YCbCr means losing BTB.

s2silber
DVI is only supports 8 bit color and in this case I would choose to use RGB.

The black floor gets raised, as if your optics were dirty, and all shadow detail below a certain level just isn't there, as if your gamma were set horribly wrong.
Bob,
This sounds like BTB and WTW getting "pushed out/off" due to 16-235 getting converted to PC video 0-255. "Literally" clipping, 16-235 staying intact, I wouldn't think would cause "black floor" to get raised - 16 is still 16. But "crush" where low blacks that are encoded with BTB and whites encoded with WTW, I can most definitely "see" happening.

I have a player at home the does each one. The Tosh A1 going HDMI->DVI acts like you describe and it is converting Studio RGB to PC RGB. The PS3 on HDMI->DVI clips BTB and WTW but the 16-235 appears intact - calibration is basically the same as a player that works properly except BTB is all 16 and WTW data is all 235.

larry

Yes, it is. If you disable Denon Link, you'll see that all of the audio menu selections will become available.thanks for your input.

Actually the "Denon Link" parameter was already set = OFF.

So I went into the HDMI Audio menu and re-set "MULTI(NORMAL)" to "2CH". When I went back into AUDIO SETUP menu I was now able to access all the other parameters, thank god (the menu is not very thorough about this).

Mr Bob,
Are you saying to not use the 10 bit YCbCr output from Denon DVD players??? I'm not clear if using YCbCr means losing BTB.

s2silber
DVI is only supports 8 bit color and in this case I would choose to use RGB.


I have no idea. You were asking about BTB. The tests I did were using component out at all times. I would not think there would be any difference between that and RGB, re. BTB.


Mr Bob

Bob,
This sounds like BTB and WTW getting "pushed out/off" due to 16-235 getting converted to PC video 0-255. "Literally" clipping, 16-235 staying intact, I wouldn't think would cause "black floor" to get raised - 16 is still 16. But "crush" where low blacks that are encoded with BTB and whites encoded with WTW, I can most definitely "see" happening.

I have a player at home the does each one. The Tosh A1 going HDMI->DVI acts like you describe and it is converting Studio RGB to PC RGB. The PS3 on HDMI->DVI clips BTB and WTW but the 16-235 appears intact - calibration is basically the same as a player that works properly except BTB is all 16 and WTW data is all 235.

larry


Sounds good to me! I just calibrate the darn things, using what I have been given. I can do a better job on a DVDP that shows BTB than I can on one that doesn't. Just like I can do a better job on a CRT than I can on a fixed pixel that never gets close to being black at all. Esp. if it's a plasma that is still showing green when the room is absolutely lightless.


Mr Bob

Thanks for a very thorough answer, Mr. Bob.

Some of the technical terms are going over my head here, but if I understand it correctly, RGB doesn't support 10 bit processing and YCbCr does. But using YCbCr to get 10 bit processing could potentially cause a lack of shadow detail, because the 2930 isn't capable of showing BTB.

I can't have both, so I have dilemma on my hands. Can we agree on that, or am I way off?

Thanks for a very thorough answer, Mr. Bob.

Some of the technical terms are going over my head here, but if I understand it correctly, RGB doesn't support 10 bit processing and YCbCr does. But using YCbCr to get 10 bit processing could potentially cause a lack of shadow detail, because the 2930 isn't capable of showing BTB.

I can't have both, so I have dilemma on my hands. Can we agree on that, or am I way off?


I have not been following this thread, so I really can't tellya. I came on board just a page or 2 ago, because somebody pointed it out to me. I don't have any of the equipment being discussed here, so have not been following that stuff either.

I don't know whether RGB is 8 bit or 10 bit - nor component, for that matter.

I do know they both use the same color space and are so close together in their grade of image integrity that you'd never know the difference. And that component has a bit more flexibility than RGB. ISF's Joel Silver says to use component whenever you need to, that it's more advantageous and convenient to use than RGB and that you can't tell them apart, and I heartily agree with that.

I have been using component on my 65" Panny for the last 5 years, and now on my brand new 73" Mit as well, and I just don't know how any display's image could get any better than either of those 2 pictures. They both do BTB standing on their heads, and studying the grain of the film used to shoot the movies played on them is absolutely effortless.


Mr Bob

Anyone know the details of the latest firmware update?
Our local rep dropped it into work and I updated my unit at home.

Current version is now 8284-2 (was 8284) Make day B27 (was 711) other details remained the same.

No information of what was updated etc.

How do you check your current firmware version?

Thanks for a very thorough answer, Mr. Bob.

Some of the technical terms are going over my head here, but if I understand it correctly, RGB doesn't support 10 bit processing and YCbCr does. But using YCbCr to get 10 bit processing could potentially cause a lack of shadow detail, because the 2930 isn't capable of showing BTB.

I can't have both, so I have dilemma on my hands. Can we agree on that, or am I way off? RGB is a color format. You can have 100bit video with RGB if for some silly reason you wanted to generate it. Without deep color support that's in HDMI 1.3, RGB and YCbCr 4:4:4 are limited to 8bits per color component. Without deep color support, YCbCr 4:2:2 can be 10bit or 12bit. As a reference, SD DVDs and hidef DVDs are encoded using 8bit YCbCr 4:2:0.

larry

Thanks for a very thorough answer, Mr. Bob.

Some of the technical terms are going over my head here, but if I understand it correctly, RGB doesn't support 10 bit processing and YCbCr does. But using YCbCr to get 10 bit processing could potentially cause a lack of shadow detail, because the 2930 isn't capable of showing BTB.

I can't have both, so I have dilemma on my hands. Can we agree on that, or am I way off?Just to add to the previous answers....there is analog RGB and analog YPbPr which should not be confused with digital DVI which is limited to an 8 bit RGB colorspace or digital HDMI which can be 10 or 12 bits as Larry points out. In the context of this thread, and the recent discussion, the Denon players have analog component outputs and a digital HDMI output. If you use the HDMI output and connect that to a DVI input (on a display) then you are limited to 8 bit RGB. If you connect the HDMI output to an HDMI input (on a display) then you can use 8 bit RGB or (with the 2930 and 3930) 10 bit YCrCb. If the display supports 10 bit HDMI then that is the way to go. If it does not then you may be better off selecting RGB (this is user selectable in the DVD Player HDMI format select menu). As far as I recall the players (at least the 3930) can output BTB via analog component and digital RGB or YCrCb.

Anyone know the details of the latest firmware update?
Our local rep dropped it into work and I updated my unit at home.

Current version is now 8284-2 (was 8284) Make day B27 (was 711) other details remained the same.

No information of what was updated etc.
This is the first I'm hearing of a firmware update. Are you referring to one for the 2930 or 3930, and where would we get it?

Thanks again guys for the great information.

I use HDMI and it's connected to the HDMI input on my BenQ 8720. This is a 10 bit projector, so YCbCr should be the best way to go. But since, at least in my case, the 2930 doesn't produce BTB when sending a YCbCr signal over HDMI (haven't tried component cable), I might loose some important shadow detail. In that case, maybe a RGB signal which shows BTB, even if it's not 8 bit, would be preferable.

If it's not crucial for a DVD player to show BTB, then YCbCr would be the given choice. But like Mr Bob explained much better than I'll ever be able to, shadow details may be lost when a DVD player isn't capable to produce BTB.

I must admit that I'm a little frustrated and disappointed after buying such an expensive DVD player. Don't get me wrong, I love the picture that my 2930 is giving me, but knowing that I'm compromising is not a good feeling.

Bookhouseboy,
Is there any settings on the PJ that indicate what type of input it expects? Maybe, for some reason, the PJ is telling the player it wants PC video levels. Also, you don't have any "enchanced black level " or "enhanced RGB" settings enabled on the 2930, do you?

larry

This is the first I'm hearing of a firmware update. Are you referring to one for the 2930 or 3930, and where would we get it?

The 3930.

And where/how do you get it? It's not on the Denon website.

Bookhouseboy,
Is there any settings on the PJ that indicate what type of input it expects? Maybe, for some reason, the PJ is telling the player it wants PC video levels. Also, you don't have any "enchanced black level " or "enhanced RGB" settings enabled on the 2930, do you?

larry

The projector either actives the input automatically, or I switch to HDMI by using the remote. I don't think it has anything to do with the projector.

I actually believe that I have the RGB enhanced black enabled. Could that be the reason why BTB is displayed when I use a RGB signal? Is there a setting I should try changing?

Thanks for taking the time to help.

IIRC, "enhanced RGB black level" on Denon means PC video, RGB or YCbCr - which would be the cause of your problem.

larry

I was wondering if someone could quickly outline some differences of the 2930 vs the 3910.

I have an opportunity to buy a 3910 for cheaper than a 2930. I like some of the convenience features on the 2930 (such as auto-squeeze mode and the SACD-multi/sacd stereo/redbook button on the remote rather than the unit) but can't seem to find what they all are.

So, can someone tell me what some of the functions I would be losing if I got the 3910 over the 2930? I know the 3910 has better sound. I'm more interested in "what would I be sacrificing by getting a 3910 over a 2930" - and I know that makes almost no sense, but given my examples I hope someone can help me out!

BTW - I use a 56" JVC HD-ILA (HD56G786 I believe)

-DD

IIRC, "enhanced RGB black level" on Denon means PC video, RGB or YCbCr - which would be the cause of your problem.

larryI think that's right. I don't think you normally want to use the enhanced setting. Unfortunately the manual is not of much help and the "Enhanced" phrasing is misleading as well.

I've discovered something not so nice about the 2930 - it has deinterlacing problems. I've seen it in a few movies (the picture clearly disolves into lines for a brief moment), and it happened more than one in "Miami Vice". Switching from 720p to 1080i makes the problem go away, so it's definitely the 2930's deinterlacer that causes it.

My expectations were maybe too high, but a brand new, high priced DVD player should do a better job than my BenQ 8720 as a deinterlacer. I'm now saddly considering returing the 2930. Buying such an expensive player only to send interlaced to the display, is to me a bad solution.

Has anyone else experienced deinterlacing problems, or am I the only one complaining?

I'm sorry for bringing some negative energy into this thread, but I can't ignore the things I've discovered, so I hopw you guys understand that.

Oh, and by the way, the remote sucks! ;)

RGB Enhancer was off, my mistake.

I've seen the same de-interlacing problem as well, but mainly on PAL DVDs. It happends only for a brief moment, the effect is like really bad screen-door effect.
I'm running at 1080p

Yup, I live in Europe and have only seen it on PAL DVD's. "Good" to hear I'm not the only one experiencing this.

It's a real shame, because the picture is otherwise so great. The natural colors, the depth and so on. But this deinterlacing issue I've seen is a deal breaker for me. It's very noticeable and can ruin a good action scene with fast paced cuts, like it did in "Miami Vice".

At first I thought it maybe had something to do with "Miami Vice" being shot with digital camera, but I watched a different DVD last night and it happened twice.

But since, at least in my case, the 2930 doesn't produce BTB when sending a YCbCr signal over HDMI...
Hmmm... I may have missed part of the discussion earlier, so forgive me, but I can't imagine why not.

My combo... 2930CI (720P RGB OR YCbCr) -> HDMI -> Panny 50" Plasma produces BTB. So why wouldn't yours?

I'm not saying it does or doesn't in your case, but the logic is just kind of lost on me as I know it outputs it to my PDP. :confused:

shane

I've discovered something not so nice about the 2930 - it has deinterlacing problems. I've seen it in a few movies (the picture clearly disolves into lines for a brief moment), and it happened more than one in "Miami Vice". Switching from 720p to 1080i makes the problem go away, so it's definitely the 2930's deinterlacer that causes it.

My expectations were maybe too high, but a brand new, high priced DVD player should do a better job than my BenQ 8720 as a deinterlacer. I'm now saddly considering returing the 2930. Buying such an expensive player only to send interlaced to the display, is to me a bad solution.

Has anyone else experienced deinterlacing problems, or am I the only one complaining?

I'm sorry for bringing some negative energy into this thread, but I can't ignore the things I've discovered, so I hopw you guys understand that.

Oh, and by the way, the remote sucks! ;)

RGB Enhancer was off, my mistake.

This is not a deinterlacing issue as much as a "mode" issue.

I never enountered this issue with the entire image, only part of it such as in Star Wars.

However, I found that switching to Video 2 for film-based DVDs fixed the problem. It appears that "auto" slips into video mode for film-based DVDs on rare occasion.

And where/how do you get it? It's not on the Denon website.

Look here for Firmware in Europe Denon Europe DVD Firmware page (http://firmware.denon-online.eu/index.php)

At your own risk! I don´t know if it works for the US versions.

Nacho.

Thanks. After translating the warning, I don't think I'll risk it. However, this does suggest that contact with Denon here in the U.S. is in order to see if they've got something for owners here, too.

This is not a deinterlacing issue as much as a "mode" issue.

I never enountered this issue with the entire image, only part of it such as in Star Wars.

However, I found that switching to Video 2 for film-based DVDs fixed the problem. It appears that "auto" slips into video mode for film-based DVDs on rare occasion.

I'll try a different mode. The projector had no problem with the scene in question, so it could be that "Auto" is the cause of the problem, but I have my doubts. I'll check it right away.

I forgot that I returned the movie today. Which is the correct mode for movies?

I'll try a different mode. The projector had no problem with the scene in question, so it could be that "Auto" is the cause of the problem, but I have my doubts. I'll check it right away.

I forgot that I returned the movie today. Which is the correct mode for movies?If you're watching PAL and NTSC DVDs, I'd leave it on AUTO and tolerate a hiccup or two here and there. Two different deinterlacing modes - 25fps vs 24fps. And if you are outputting 50hz for PAL, it's basically NTSC video mode - 2:2 - which is not what you want for NTSC film.

larry

I'll try a different mode. The projector had no problem with the scene in question, so it could be that "Auto" is the cause of the problem, but I have my doubts. I'll check it right away.

I forgot that I returned the movie today. Which is the correct mode for movies?

Video 2 if I recall.

I Got the 3930 firmware.

How must i burn the firmware with nero?

I Got the 3930 firmware.

How must i burn the firmware with nero?
Where did you get it and what's it supposed to do? Are you in Europe, too, as your ID would suggest?

I was wondering if someone could quickly outline some differences of the 2930 vs the 3910.

I have an opportunity to buy a 3910 for cheaper than a 2930. I like some of the convenience features on the 2930 (such as auto-squeeze mode and the SACD-multi/sacd stereo/redbook button on the remote rather than the unit) but can't seem to find what they all are.

So, can someone tell me what some of the functions I would be losing if I got the 3910 over the 2930? I know the 3910 has better sound. I'm more interested in "what would I be sacrificing by getting a 3910 over a 2930" - and I know that makes almost no sense, but given my examples I hope someone can help me out!

BTW - I use a 56" JVC HD-ILA (HD56G786 I believe)

-DD

I was wondering if someone could chime-in on this question before it gets lost. I know it's an odd comparison, but the 2930 does have some convenience issues like I mentioned, and I wondered what else I might be giving up by getting a 3910.

Thanks!

For video the 2930 has the SO Reon chip which will give better deinterlacing and maybe scaling over the 3910. Will you actually see a difference except with torture tests? Maybe, maybe not. Also, the 2930 will not have the macoblocking enhancement feature because it is sans Faroudja. Audiowise - nobody has the same ears, preference, room, or gear so you need to hear for yourself. :) I would guess you'd be happy with either one.

larry

Where did you get it and what's it supposed to do? Are you in Europe, too, as your ID would suggest?


From the link above.

Yes i do live in europe.

From the link above.
Thanks, but what do you mean about the link above? I can't understand the German site.

Strange that Denon was not an exhibitor at the CES this year.

Strange that Denon was not an exhibitor at the CES this year.well, I just happened to read this on AudioHolics, sounds very impressive.......
http://www.audioholics.com/ces/CESprocessors/DenonSeparates.php

Latest firmware improvements Europe:

Version: 8284-2
Date: 09.01.2007


Improvements of the SACD rendition, removal of disturbances with the similar audio expenditure over the 5.1-Kanal-Output, removal of memory problems of the video Equalizers, removal of clay/tone disturbances during DVD audio rendition.


I did flash my DVD-3930 without any problems.

Latest firmware improvements Europe: Version: 8284-2

So does this mean the US models are exempt from these issues?

For video the 2930 has the SO Reon chip which will give better deinterlacing and maybe scaling over the 3910. Will you actually see a difference except with torture tests? Maybe, maybe not. Also, the 2930 will not have the macoblocking enhancement feature because it is sans Faroudja. Audiowise - nobody has the same ears, preference, room, or gear so you need to hear for yourself. :) I would guess you'd be happy with either one.

larry

Thanks, PS. But I'm looking for more like, hmm...how do I say it. Maybe "ergonomic improvements" or something like that.

For instance. I know the dvd-2930 has an automatic squeeze mode, so when 4:3 material is detected it automatically adjusts itself. I like that feature so that when I'm watching a 16:9 movie which has menu in 4:3, everything stays right. I don't think the 3910 has an "auto" option, just on or off.

Also, I know the DVD-2930 has a SACD-Multi / SACD-Stereo / Redbook button on the remote so you can cycle through the layers without getting up. I believe the 3910 has it on the unit itself, not the remote. I like being lazy and doing that on the couch, so having it on the remote is nice.

Are there any more differences such as this that anyone can think of?

Will MB be a problem with my 56" JVC HD-ILA?

well, I just happened to read this on AudioHolics, sounds very impressive.......
http://www.audioholics.com/ces/CESprocessors/DenonSeparates.php
I looked for them high and low. They wern't listed in the guide book either. Maybe they were off-site away from the main floor.

I looked for them high and low. They wern't listed in the guide book either. Maybe they were off-site away from the main floor.
yeah, that's hard to believe Denon would'nt be on the main floor (they're one of the few who can afford that real-estate).

I am so much wanting to go to CES so bad, but I work such a crazy schedule. I'm so tempted to "sneak" up there like tommorrow night (we'll see).

I'm very interested in mostly a few speaker brands (Energy, B&W, Monitor Audio). Also owuld like to see some amplifiers (NAD, Classe, Yamaha, Denon, etc.,..).

Also, here's more cool new "live" video interviews from CES featuring Denon.

http://www.audioholics.com/ces/index.php

Also, I know the DVD-2930 has a SACD-Multi / SACD-Stereo / Redbook button on the remote so you can cycle through the layers without getting up. I believe the 3910 has it on the unit itself, not the remote. I like being lazy and doing that on the couch, so having it on the remote is nice.


The 3910 does have the SACD-Multi / SACD- Stereo / CD button on the remote. Its on the top right and is under the Open/Close button.

The 3910 does have the SACD-Multi / SACD- Stereo / CD button on the remote. Its on the top right and is under the Open/Close button.

Awesome. Thank you very much.

What about DivX? I don't think the 2910 or 3910 supported DivX did they.

Is that something you all use very much?



Also, is there more or less of a problem with "burned media" (both cd-r and dvd +/- R / RW) ?

Has anyone had experience with the 3930's HDMI port and long cables?

I've been having problems connecting to a Ruby using a 39ft, BetterCables Display Magic 24AWG HDMI to HDMI cable

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9428425#post9428425

But no solution. Anyone here is using a 3930 or 2930 with a HDMI switch, I'm hoping a switch with equalization might solve my problem.

thanks

Awesome. Thank you very much.

What about DivX? I don't think the 2910 or 3910 supported DivX did they.

Is that something you all use very much?
Also, is there more or less of a problem with "burned media" (both cd-r and dvd +/- R / RW) ?

As for the DivX - I don't think that 2910/3910 could decode them.
I am interested in this format as many friends from Europe send me discs with DivX movies.
There's this newest OPPO 981 DVD player which is DivX certified, it upconverts PQ to 1080p and it has really great reviews. And it costs only $230, versus the current CLERANCE SALE price for 3910 = "too cheap to mention at AVS" !!!
I am relly torn between these two, but I believe in Denon quality and care very much for the sound , so will probably go with 3910.

Isnt DIVX the video equivalent of MP3 for audio - ie a compressed and compromised version of the original? If so why would we want to use a top quality dvd player for viewing these? If I had a really good dvd player and it didnt play these files then I would just get an elcheapo $30 divx compatible player and hook it up by svideo and use that for those occasions.

What I am trying to say is that I wouldnt compromise and buy a lesser dvd player just because the lesser player plays Divx when I can just get an additional dirt cheap one to do that

Good point...I think I'll get the 3910

Audio Differences: 2930 vs 3930

2930
AL24 Plus
24/192 DAC

3930
AL24 Advanced
Two 24/192 DACs, used in mono/dual differential mode for 2 channel
An additional three DACs for surrounds and centre.

I don't understand DACs very well

Do these audio upgrades only apply to redbook or is there a benefit to DVD-A and SACD as well?
I know the AL24 isn't active during SACD playback.

Has anyone had experience with the 3930's HDMI port and long cables?

I've been having problems connecting to a Ruby using a 39ft, BetterCables Display Magic 24AWG HDMI to HDMI cable

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9428425#post9428425

But no solution. Anyone here is using a 3930 or 2930 with a HDMI switch, I'm hoping a switch with equalization might solve my problem.

thanks39 ft is getting up into the length where you may see problems depending on the tranmitter/cable/reciever combo. A switch may help. A different brand cable may help or even just a difference cable from the same place.

larry

How do you check your current firmware version?

Hi to all,

Nobody out there who knows how to check the current firmware version of the DVD-2930??
I got mine just 2 days ago and would like to check if it already has the latest mentioned firmware version...

Gr. Jos

Hi to all,

Nobody out there who knows how to check the current firmware version of the DVD-2930??
I got mine just 2 days ago and would like to check if it already has the latest mentioned firmware version...

Gr. Jos
I'm not sure if this is how it works on the '2930, but what I did to check my firmware version on the '3930 was as follows:

Making sure there's no disk in the player and the tray is closed, turn off the player with the hard power button.
Press the "Play" and "Open/Close" buttons at the same time and keep holding them while you turn the hard power button on again.
Release the two buttons after about three seconds and then pick up your remote and press the numbers 3-2-6-5 in sequence.
Finally, press the Menu and then the Display buttons on the remote and your software version should appear.

Again, that's for the '3930. It may not be the same for the '2930. When I went through this exercise, I discovered that I've got the older version of the firmware BE 8284. Denon Tech Support told me that they'll be posting the new version (8284-2) referenced above that's now available in Europe next month. Again, though, that's for the '3930.

I discovered something interesting today while using DVE. When I use "Brightness" in the projector's menu, I am not able to see blacker than black, but when I use "Brightness" in the 2930 menu, I am able to see it. Why is that?

I discovered something interesting today while using DVE. When I use "Brightness" in the projector's menu, I am not able to see blacker than black, but when I use "Brightness" in the 2930 menu, I am able to see it. Why is that?
The only way a player can make a pixel have a higher black level (brighter) is to increase its value. So it is taking a value of 14 or 15 (BTB) and raising it to 16 or above. It is no longer BTB and now it will "go through" (if BTB is clipped somehow). You can see the pattern (bar) displayed but it is no longer being sent as BTB video. The player is just manipulating the digital values.

larry

The only way a player can make a pixel have a higher black level (brighter) is to increase its value. So it is taking a value of 14 or 15 (BTB) and raising it to 16 or above. It is no longer BTB and now it will "go through" (if BTB is clipped somehow). You can see the pattern (bar) displayed but it is no longer being sent as BTB video. The player is just manipulating the digital values.

larry

Thanks for clearing that up.

So is it bad that I'm not able to get BTB on my projector, and why does the 2930 only clip BTB when sending YCbCr, and not when I use RGB over HDMI?

Good question. :) And just because you can see the the BTB pattern with RGB is not a guarantee that the PJ is getting BTB data (see my previous post). However, there is a way to confirm. On the player, turn brightness down some. This will cause BTB and the low low blacks to go BTB (below 16 - depends on test pattern and how much you turn down brightness). Then keep raising brightness on the PJ. You should be able to see all the BTB and low black bars appear at some point.

larry

The projector is getting BTB, because brightness in the DVD menu is turned as low as possible, and turning brightness up in the projector menu makes the BTB bar appear.

I could use RGB, because I don't see any difference in PQ, but if I have understood it correctly, I'm only gonna get 10 bit processing through YCbCr. A signal that clips black or an 8 bit signal, that's the question.

I'm not sure if this is how it works on the '2930.


Well I performed the instructions on my DVD-2930 and this works. :p
It displays I have the BE 8283-4 firmware version.

So i'll have to take a look at the upgraded firmware files.

The projector is getting BTB, because brightness in the DVD menu is turned as low as possible, and turning brightness up in the projector menu makes the BTB bar appear.

I could use RGB, because I don't see any difference in PQ, but if I have understood it correctly, I'm only gonna get 10 bit processing through YCbCr. A signal that clips black or an 8 bit signal, that's the question.
If the PJ can display 10bit video, feeding it 8bit will cause it to upsample and display. Sending it 10bit video won't require the upsampling. So then it's a matter of which device does it better, analogous to scaling - in player or display. The color upsampling difference is going to be much more subtle if noticeable at all. SD and hidef DVDs are 8bit video so you are not losing anything.

larry

Well I performed the instructions on my DVD-2930 and this works. :p
It displays I have the BE 8283-4 firmware version.

So i'll have to take a look at the upgraded firmware files.
I'm glad it worked for you, but I don't know whether that's an old firmware version for the 2930, since the 3930 has a different number (8284). Anyway, if that is an old version, don't hold your breath waiting for them to post it on the Denon website. It could take a while.

If the PJ can display 10bit video, feeding it 8bit will cause it to upsample and display. Sending it 10bit video won't require the upsampling. So then it's a matter of which device does it better, analogous to scaling - in player or display. The color upsampling difference is going to be much more subtle if noticeable at all. SD and hidef DVDs are 8bit video so you are not losing anything.

larry

Thanks again for explaining in a way so that guys like me can understand.

I didn't think about the fact that DVD's are 8 bit, and that I'm getting 10 bit upsampling either from the DVD player or the projector. I'm gonna calibrate the projector with a RGB signal from the 2930, and then decide which PQ is the best, YCbCr or RGB. I doubt I will be able to see any clear difference, but it's the only way to find out.

Can anyone tell me whether the levels of the surround channels for SACD can be adjusted individually on the 2930? The 2910 can't do this, but the Denon-USA web site seems to imply that this feature has been added to the 2930.

Can anyone tell me whether the levels of the surround channels for SACD can be adjusted individually on the 2930? The 2910 can't do this, but the Denon-USA web site seems to imply that this feature has been added to the 2930.

They can for HDMI out. Not sure about the analog outs, no mention in the manual.

You can download the owner's manual from Denon's website. See page 18

http://usa.denon.com/DVD-2930CI-OM-E.pdf

Do you guys really think you are getting the best picture and audio from your SD players? How much are you paying for them? Denon (and I own a 3910 as a CD player) needs to make a commitment. HD DVD or BD. Come on boys/gals...the party is fine just commit. Just a matter of time. You can't be charging premo prices for SD forever. If you are smart (Meridian) go HD DVD/they have. And Merdian has NOT recanted have they.

Do you guys really think you are getting the best picture and audio from your SD players? How much are you paying for them?

Your point is valid but it depends each person's circumstances.

In my case I fully realize that HD-DVD and BluRay will provide a superior picture.
But my 2930 will do just fine with SD discs until I am ready to jump on the bandwagon.

Even then my 2930 will continue to be my SACD/DVD-A player therefore I'm prepared to pay what many may think is too high a price.

How do I ensure that my 2930 is outputting the highest possible resolution for 2 channel audio?

I have the source direct on and the 2 channel analog outs are the only cables connected to the machine.
The player mode in the "Special Settings" menu is set to "Audio".

Near as I can tell this should be it however the presence of all 6 channel indicators (LCR, LFE, SL, SR) have me worried. Plus the D.MIX light is on.
I understand what downmixing is but the manual doesn't say how and when this is in effect.

Can anyone tell me whether the levels of the surround channels for SACD can be adjusted individually on the 2930? The 2910 can't do this, but the Denon-USA web site seems to imply that this feature has been added to the 2930.
Yes, it can be done. Make sure the D-Link is turned off.

shane

Latest firmware improvements Europe:

Version: 8284-2
Date: 09.01.2007


Improvements of the SACD rendition, removal of disturbances with the similar audio expenditure over the 5.1-Kanal-Output, removal of memory problems of the video Equalizers, removal of clay/tone disturbances during DVD audio rendition.


I did flash my DVD-3930 without any problems.

Did anyone who updated his DVD-3930 with the newer firmware, try the region free code using the remote control?
Does this still work on the newer firmware?

Thanks,

Adri.

They can for HDMI out. Not sure about the analog outs, no mention in the manual.

You can download the owner's manual from Denon's website. See page 18

Woops, I made a mistake in my question about the 2930's SACD surround playback: Let me revise it: I meant, Can the unit control the delays, (not the levels)? Also, I was refering to the analogue outs. The old 2910 could control the delays, but only for DVD and DVD-A.

Do you guys really think you are getting the best picture and audio from your SD players? How much are you paying for them? Denon (and I own a 3910 as a CD player) needs to make a commitment. HD DVD or BD. Come on boys/gals...the party is fine just commit. Just a matter of time. You can't be charging premo prices for SD forever. If you are smart (Meridian) go HD DVD/they have. And Merdian has NOT recanted have they.

They are charging premium prices for all HD/DVD's and Blu-Ray discs which are also very scarce for titles available. Plus the technology is still filled with quirks (I notice significant noise from pretty much every blu-ray disc I have seen on every type of Blu-Ray player...I also purchased a HD-DVD player from Toshiba which had a ton of problems as far as loading discs etc and it was the A2 version. HD or not the fact of the matter is HD picture is only half of the experience...if that. In my home the audio is about 75 percent of the experience which is attainable via processing power combined with good gear.

My 3930 is coming tomorrow...I've read this thread about 20 times :(

PS FedEX sucks.

-MJE-

Been meaning to ask...

my old dvd player is a Sony DVP-NS755V (oldschool 299.99 version of their SACD progressive scan player)...Compared to even the HD-A2 that I picked up it has horrible amounts of noise in the picture...the sound seems to be great to be honest however I'm wondering what to expect from this 3930ci unit.

-MJE-

I tried using RGB, and I switched between YCbCr and RGB, but I couldn't see a difference. So I guess I'll just stick with RGB since YCbCr doesn't show BTB.

Did anyone who updated his DVD-3930 with the newer firmware, try the region free code using the remote control?
Does this still work on the newer firmware?

I have a European 3930 and it remained region free after the firmware update. I did not have to re-apply the remote control hack.

They are charging premium prices for all HD/DVD's and Blu-Ray discs which are also very scarce for titles available. Plus the technology is still filled with quirks (I notice significant noise from pretty much every blu-ray disc I have seen on every type of Blu-Ray player...I also purchased a HD-DVD player from Toshiba which had a ton of problems as far as loading discs etc and it was the A2 version. HD or not the fact of the matter is HD picture is only half of the experience...if that. In my home the audio is about 75 percent of the experience which is attainable via processing power combined with good gear.

My 3930 is coming tomorrow...I've read this thread about 20 times :(

PS FedEX sucks.

-MJE-

Please give us a full report :) !

I have a European 3930 and it remained region free after the firmware update. I did not have to re-apply the remote control hack.
Benno,

Thanks for the confirmation.
I'll try the update myself later today.

Adri.

Just got my dvd player, hooked it up and popped in lord of the rings...

again I picked up a 3930CI unit.

I'm still lacking the AVIA calibration disc as my vans are all out on the road at the moment and my spare van is at the shop getting new tires etc. But my first impressions are...

build quality...solid unit...feels like a tank, it operates with near silence and being in the same vicinity of the other components it still only feels as if its the ambient temperature of its surroundings. I do not have a problem with "delays" during operation as far as times are concerned. I put a disc in...5 seconds later its on the screen.

Now my initial tests which I will attempt to follow up with a solid review once my Velodyne DD-18 comes in and I actually tune this thing.

On lord of the rings on both the Toshiba HD-A2 dvd player and my Sony unit I actually believed the color was dead on...that is until I saw the colors reproduced on this Denon.

I can make out acne on Legolas' forehead, I can actually see the individual hairs on beards etc. The scene that stuck out the most to me was one that I tested back and forth about a week ago on Disc 2 of the "fellowship of the ring"..

its part of the extended edition so I do not know if when you watch the standard discs that it will be shown. Anyways the artifacting is basically nonexistent and during this scene they are just leaving the Elves "compound" on their way to Mordor...as they step out the door there is a small tree which previously had leaves that appeared to be greener than jungle leaves would be. Now the leaves along with the rest of the scenery in this movie seem to fit its setting perfectly as far as color saturation is concerned. That overcast, dull, dark fall/winter season approaching...its effects on the trees, grass and dirt are reproduced perfectly. I want to pop in more movies however this looks so good I want to watch the rest of the collection before I do that.

Again as soon as I grab my AVIA test disc or I can get to one of the lead's vans that have the Colorfacts Pro 6.0 on them I will post a solid review based on my findings.

-Mike

Hey guys,

Does anybody know if the Analogue Stereo Out of the 2930 goes through bass management? I know that the 5.1 Analogue Outs goes through it, but I am unsure about the Analogue Stereo Out...

Thanks so much for the help!

All by best to all!
Heber

I'm sort of forced to use component-video connection currently with my DVD-3930CI as HDMI/DVI connection does not work with my HP-LC2640N TV. I plan to get an HDMI TV later.

Does this mean that there's I have [no] up-scaling/de-interlacing because I'm using component-video?

Latest firmware improvements Europe:

Today a new firmware did come out again for the DVD-3930.

Version: 8284-3
Date: 15-01-2007

Changelog: 8284-3

General improvements of the playing ability, improvement of the compatibility to not standard-conformal CDs.

How and why would they release new firmware less than a week after release of the previous update? Are there that many problems?

How and why would they release new firmware less than a week after release of the previous update? Are there that many problems?

To make this wonderful machine Just better

I'm sort of forced to use component-video connection currently with my DVD-3930CI as HDMI/DVI connection does not work with my HP-LC2640N TV. I plan to get an HDMI TV later.

Does this mean that there's I have [no] up-scaling/de-interlacing because I'm using component-video?

With component, you are still utilizing the deinerlacing capability of the 3930CI (presuming it's set for progressive output) - not the scaling.

To make this wonderful machine Just better
but, these firmware updates are intended for Euro-models only?

With component, you are still utilizing the deinerlacing capability of the 3930CI (presuming it's set for progressive output) - not the scaling.I see, thanks for your input. I'll have to look at manual to be sure it is set for "progessive".

Hey guys,

Does anybody know if the Analogue Stereo Out of the 2930 goes through bass management? I know that the 5.1 Analogue Outs goes through it, but I am unsure about the Analogue Stereo Out...

Thanks so much for the help!

All by best to all!
Heber
BM is not applied to the Stereo analog out.

shane

I'm glad it worked for you, but I don't know whether that's an old firmware version for the 2930, since the 3930 has a different number (8284). Anyway, if that is an old version, don't hold your breath waiting for them to post it on the Denon website. It could take a while.

Denon Europe (Germany) has just released the 8283-7 firmware version for the DVD-2930.

Not sure if i'm going to update my player as for now everything is working fine.

Jos

I searched the german Denon site but I could not find any information
about the new firmware. Does anyone know what issues it addresses?

/Ingvar

Ingvar, see
http://firmware.denon-online.eu/

But it's in German and you need your players serial number.
I do not have the release notes at hand as I am not at home.

Jos

The reason I asked is that I am thinking about buying a 2930/3930 but I
need it to support my projectors native resolution, 768x1366, which the
initial firmware does not do.

Reading german is not a big problem but I do not have a player serial
number to use on the Denon site.

Would it be possible to post the release notes here?

Thanks!

/Ingvar

The reason I asked is that I am thinking about buying a 2930/3930 but I
need it to support my projectors native resolution, 768x1366, which the
initial firmware does not do.

Would it be possible to post the release notes here?


Text from the DVD-2930 changelog:

8283-7
Allgemeine Verbesserungen der Abspielfähigkeit, Verbesserung der Kompatibilität zu nicht Standardkonformen CDs.

8283-6
Verbesserungen der SACD-Wiedergabe,
Beseitigung von Störungen bei der analogen Audio-Ausgabe über den 5.1-Kanal-Ausgang,
Beseitigung von Speicherproblemen des Video-Equalizers,
Beseitigung von Tonstörungen bei DVD-Audio-Wiedergabe.

Unfortunately nothing about new supported (PC) Resolutions

Anyone have any guesses as to how long the fan in the 3930 will last, and more importantly, what's likely to have heat-related problems when it dies?

BM is not applied to the Stereo analog out.

shane

Thanks for the response Shane!
Take care!

What should the player settings be to output the hi-rez two channel section of Mch DVD-A's ?
I'm using the 2 channel analog outs only.
Have been through the manual back to front but it doesn't tell you (as far as I can see anyways).

Thankfully some discs (Flaming Lips - Yoshimi, Alice Cooper - Welcome) have 2 channel options on the disc menu :). But most don't.
Logic tells me when I see all 6 channel indicator lights lit up I'm playing the 5.1 section.
When I press the "Audio" button on the remote it says 5.1 / 96-24 (or whatever), not 2ch / 176 (or 96) - 24 like it does when I'm definitely playing 2 ch.

I can usually figure anything out but I'm feeling like a dummy on this one.

Thanks jos-nl for the information!

To bad about no new resolutions but perhaps it will come
in future realeases!

Thanks again!

/Ingvar

What should the player settings be to output the hi-rez two channel section of Mch DVD-A's ?
I'm using the 2 channel analog outs only.
Have been through the manual back to front but it doesn't tell you (as far as I can see anyways).

Thankfully some discs (Flaming Lips - Yoshimi, Alice Cooper - Welcome) have 2 channel options on the disc menu :). But most don't.
Logic tells me when I see all 6 channel indicator lights lit up I'm playing the 5.1 section.
When I press the "Audio" button on the remote it says 5.1 / 96-24 (or whatever), not 2ch / 176 (or 96) - 24 like it does when I'm definitely playing 2 ch.

I can usually figure anything out but I'm feeling like a dummy on this one.

Though I'm not entirely sure how I managed to figure this one out.....the speaker configuration portion of the multichannel section on the Audio channel menu.
This configuration had been blocked in the past (by turning on the source direct, I think). I set everything except the fronts to "off" and voila, it's playing the hi-rez stereo section :)

I'm gonna have to write this one down so that I can remember how to get back to it ;)

Verbesserungen der SACD-Wiedergabe I would love to have one of these myself, isn't this the 2007 Volkswagen "Verbesserungen", with the new SACD player?

what's likely to have heat-related problems when it dies?I suspect the fan is for the power-supply(s)?

the speaker configuration portion of the multichannel section on the Audio channel menu had been blocked in the past (by turning on the source direct, I think).

I set everything except the fronts to "off" and voila, it's playing the hi-rez stereo sectionhmmm, that's interesting. So we essentially use "hi-rez" 5.1 mode, however, with center, rears, and sub, set = "OFF"?

You'd think they have a specific mode, or button, just for that?

Anyone have any guesses as to how long the fan in the 3930 will last, and more importantly, what's likely to have heat-related problems when it dies?

I'd imagine it's there to keep the Realta chip cooler. Runs quite hot apparently.

Though I'm not entirely sure how I managed to figure this one out.....the speaker configuration portion of the multichannel section on the Audio channel menu.
This configuration had been blocked in the past (by turning on the source direct, I think). I set everything except the fronts to "off" and voila, it's playing the hi-rez stereo section :)

I'm gonna have to write this one down so that I can remember how to get back to it ;)

You're still getting a "fold down" by doing that. It's not a true "stereo" mix (which many DVD-A's don't even have).

By shutting off the other speakers, you're just telling the DVD player to send the sound normally allocated to those speakers to your fronts only (ie a "fold down" of the 5.1).

Effectively, it's no different than just using the 2-channel output of your player.

You're still getting a "fold down" by doing that. It's not a true "stereo" mix (which many DVD-A's don't even have).

By shutting off the other speakers, you're just telling the DVD player to send the sound normally allocated to those speakers to your fronts only (ie a "fold down" of the 5.1).

Effectively, it's no different than just using the 2-channel output of your player.
so, then how do you configure for "hi-resolution" stereo? (if that's posible?)

Or will it play thru normal 2-channel stereo mode?

so, then how do you configure for "hi-resolution" stereo? (if that's posible?)

Or will it play thru normal 2-channel stereo mode?

Maybe activating "Source Direct" is all that is required to play the 2 channel section?

I wonder if maybe I shouldn't worry about the presence of the extra lights when playing Source Direct.
Perhaps they are meant to be lit up if the disc has a Mch mix, whether you are playing it or not.

I realized that what I heard with speaker settings deactivated (and only the two front channels lights on) sounded the same as source direct (with all 6 channels indicators on).
i.e. the content sounded the same. no bits "missing" either way. (though I would assume sound quality would suffer somewhat if listening to a fold down).
In both cases I'm using the 2 channel outputs.
Heck, maybe the hi-rez signal is automatically routed to the 2 channel outputs and this is much ado about nothing.

I just want to be sure I'm getting the most out of the disc.

Now I understand the complaints about the inadequacies of the Denon manuals.

I don't have a big selection of DVD-A compared to SACD, and maybe this is one of the reasons.

AFAIK, there is no "player" setting to use to get a 2 ch hi-res stereo mix from a DVD-A. If such a mix is present on the disc, it must be enabled by the DVD-A menu for that specific disc. Some discs do not have such an option, others do.

I believe that the 3930 will output 2 channel hi-res through both the stereo analog outputs and the RF and LF of the multichannel outputs. ( this is only a belief for the mch outputs, I haven't checked).

The CD-Stereo-Multi selection capability present on the remote only works on SACD sources, not for DVD-A.

Hope that this helps.

Right, there is no player setting for 2-channel DVD-A. Most DVD-A's dont even have a high-resolution 2-channel mix on the disk. Some do (I belive beach boys "pet sounds" has menu options for high-resolution 5.1, high-resolution mono, and high-resolution stereo).

So, if you have a 2-channel system and the DVD-A disk you are using only has high-resolution 5.1 (like the Beatles "Love" DVD-A), the only option you have is to let the DVD player fold the C, LR, RR, and Sub channels to the mains.

You will get hi-res audio, but the mix won't be the same as a true stereo high-res mix. You have no choice though, so you either take that or listen to a 2-channel source (like the CD from Beatles "Love").

Also, folding down a DVD-A mix is something the author of the disk can code onto the disk how it happens. It's not like the DVD player is choosing what folds where. The DVD-A spec allows the author to specify how a mix is folded within the DVD player. source: http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=2224568&postcount=21

Right, there is no player setting for 2-channel DVD-A. Most DVD-A's dont even have a high-resolution 2-channel mix on the disk. Some do (I belive beach boys "pet sounds" has menu options for high-resolution 5.1, high-resolution mono, and high-resolution stereo).

The 'Crowded House' DVD-A has menu options for High Res 5.1, DD 5.1, DD DTS, High Res Stereo

Can someone list a couple of DVD-A disks that have a high res stereo track but do not have a menu when you press 'top menu' ? It doesnt make sense to have a track but no way to select it and I would like to check this out.

I don't know of any, but maybe in those circumstances one can use the "audio" button on the remote to access the 2-channel chapter? Just guessing, I don't really know for sure right now.

Hi all. New to AVS. Just wanted to say thanks to all of you guys for comments on the 3930CI. I was looking for a player to replace my Sony S9000ES and the 3930CI is the one. IMHO it smokes my old S9000ES in PQ. I'm using component video and it just looks stunning. The audio is also better than my S9000ES and that's saying alot. This is my first Denon product and won't be my last. Totally happy with my 3930CI.

The 'Crowded House' DVD-A has menu options for High Res 5.1, DD 5.1, DD DTS, High Res Stereo

Can someone list a couple of DVD-A disks that have a high res stereo track but do not have a menu when you press 'top menu' ? It doesnt make sense to have a track but no way to select it and I would like to check this out.

I have a number of DVD-A's that are clearly listed as having a specific 2 channel option, sometimes at a higher resolution than the 5.1 mix.
Many (Flaming Lips, Alice Cooper, Emmylou Harris, Joni Mitchell and more) have a menu choice. On some of these discs, as you mention, you have to press the "Top Menu" button to reach a menu that allows you make the choice. Some discs (on my player at least) don't automatically go to this menu when loading the disc.

Others like The Doobies Captain & Me are two sided...one side 5.1, the other 2.0.
Based on my limited DVD-A collection (16 discs so far) the following do not have the menu option of choosing the 2 channel mix:
Natalie Merchant - Tigerlily
The Beatles - Love (not 100% sure if this has a dedicated 2 channel mix)

On Tigerlily I only get a 5 channel indication on the machine, regardless of how I set the speaker configuration. Maybe a downmix is the only 2 channel option I have ? No matter what I try I cannot reach what appears to be the 2 channel version.

Hi All, I have 2930, I want to know any function to view the current video Bit-rate when playing the DVD.

Great Thanks

Hi all. New to AVS. Just wanted to say thanks to all of you guys for comments on the 3930CI. I was looking for a player to replace my Sony S9000ES and the 3930CI is the one. IMHO it smokes my old S9000ES in PQ. I'm using component video and it just looks stunning. The audio is also better than my S9000ES and that's saying alot. This is my first Denon product and won't be my last. Totally happy with my 3930CI.

Even though I have a newer Denon - I kept my S9000ES. The S9000ES is still an amazing machine. And many reviewers gave it extremely high marks for it's sound quality. However, I know "Secrets" hammered it pretty hard when they reviewed it.

But the best thing about it - and reason I'll always keep it - is it's amazing quality to play DVD-R's. Even marginal DVD-R's (bought on e-bay). I've played about 300 DVD-R's on it w/o a hitch. My other DVD players (I have 6) and the Denon, freeze, skip, and refuse to play many DVD-R's.

The worst thing about the S9000ES is it's layer change. In a word - it sucks. The Denon is exemplary in this regard. :)

Interesting tid bit:
I see Widescreen Review still uses a S9000ES in their state-of-the-art reference system! (look at any issue of Widescreen Review to verify!)

I agree John that the S9000ES was a great machine when it first came out. I still have my S9000ES and have it hooked up in the bedroom. The main reason I needed a new player was the fact my S9000ES was having tray problems. I've had it in for service once already and the tech told me that Sony doesn't make any more parts for this player. So once it dies, that's it.

Have you had any problems with the tray opening on your S9000ES John?

The 3930 continues to impress me. Watched a few more demo scenes (Master and Commander-opening attack), Bad Boys 2(highway chase) and Underworld (subway shootout) and was totally impressed. I'm hearing more details than I did with my S9000ES. What a fantastic machine.

:)

Now I understand the complaints about the inadequacies of the Denon manuals.you said it! The manual does no justice for the power and complexity of the DVD-3930CI, this is one heck of a machine!

I'm just getting versed with how to play various disc's (mostly CD's, SACD's, DVD-A's so far).

Although I did some testing with a DVD-movie ("the Break-Up") and it seemed to play just fine (beautiful color). Have'nt figured out how to play with video resolution- ie. set for progressive.

I have my DVD-3930CI connected to a Yamaha RV-1600: 2-channel audio OUT's going to Yamaha analog "CD" INP's, digital coax going to Yamaha "DVD" digital coax INP, 5.1 audio OUT's going to Yamaha "Multi-Channel" INP's, and component-video OUT to Yamaha "DVD" component-video INP.

I noticed while playing a (redbook) CD, via-2ch audio OUT, I switch the Yamaha to "CD" input (2-chan analog), and it plays very nice. However, if I switch the Yamaha to "DVD" input it also plays thru this channel- I guess the audio is coming thru the digital coax at this point? (it must be because it's playing with DolbyDigital enabled on Yamaha). hmmmm.........

I agree John that the S9000ES was a great machine when it first came out. I still have my S9000ES and have it hooked up in the bedroom. The main reason I needed a new player was the fact my S9000ES was having tray problems. I've had it in for service once already and the tech told me that Sony doesn't make any more parts for this player. So once it dies, that's it.

Have you had any problems with the tray opening on your S9000ES John?

The 3930 continues to impress me. Watched a few more demo scenes (Master and Commander-opening attack), Bad Boys 2(highway chase) and Underworld (subway shootout) and was totally impressed. I'm hearing more details than I did with my S9000ES. What a fantastic machine.

:)

No problems at all w/ my S9000ES. I've probably opened my tray 2,000 times! I still use it almost every day (in my auxillary theater). Of course I use the Denon in my main theater. Maybe I should not use my 9000 quite so much. Save it just for DVD-R's. Hate to think of it as a boat anchor! :eek:

Hi All, I have 2930, I want to know any function to view the current video Bit-rate when playing the DVD.

Great Thanks

Anyone help....really cannot show the video bitrate

Is anyone with a 2930 using with a 1080p display?

I am curious if it does 1:1 pixel mapping, i.e. no cropping on any sides.

Anyone help....really cannot show the video bitrate

I am pretty sure the Denon's dont have that function. I have only ever seen it on a Sony player but there may be others.

There is a free prog to check the bitrate of DVDs on a computer it you just want to check the odd one.

No problems at all w/ my S9000ES. I've probably opened my tray 2,000 times! I still use it almost every day (in my auxillary theater). Of course I use the Denon in my main theater. Maybe I should not use my 9000 quite so much. Save it just for DVD-R's. Hate to think of it as a boat anchor! :eek:

I also have an s9000es and have had no problems with it. The slow layer change bothers me a little. PQ is quite nice.

I was going to go for the 3930ci. Instead, I'll upgrade my Anthem D1 to D2 status and get an Oppo 970hd for sacd,dvd-audio, and dvds over hdmi. Will get the Toshiba XA2 for HD-DVD +/- sd dvds upsampled. Surprisingly, the Oppo and Toshiba together will cost less than the Denon. Ah well, can't complain about the build quality of the Denon. If it converted sacd to pcm to allow transfer over hdmi then I would spring the extra cash for it but unfortunately the Oppo is the only option for this right now.

I am pretty sure the Denon's dont have that function. I have only ever seen it on a Sony player but there may be others.Pioneers and Panasonics can do this too; Denon is one of the few that can't.

I believe Denon is also one of the only manufacturers out there that insists on forcing their on-screen display on you (I know I pressed "PREV" or "NEXT," but worse yet I can tell I'm looking at a still frame without needing to display "STILL" in the corner, sigh...)

Pioneers and Panasonics can do this too; Denon is one of the few that can't.

I believe Denon is also one of the only manufacturers out there that insists on forcing their on-screen display on you (I know I pressed "PREV" or "NEXT," but worse yet I can tell I'm looking at a still frame without needing to display "STILL" in the corner, sigh...)

Yeah... my cheapo Toshiba recorder can show bit rates.

And as for the 'idiot displays' like 'STILL, NEXT, etc... yeah, pretty dumb. One of the only negatives. But that said, pretty small complaint.

shane

Anyone using the 2930 or 3930 with a Sony KF-xxWE610 LCD TV via DVI?

I was wondering if the handshaking works. I will probably go component anyways but I didn't want to purchase the DVI to HDMI cable if it didn't work.

Anyone using the 2930 or 3930 with a Sony KF-xxWE610 LCD TV via DVI?

I was wondering if the handshaking works. I will probably go component anyways but I didn't want to purchase the DVI to HDMI cable if it didn't work.
I am; the 3930CI and the KF50WE610, through the Denon AVR 3806. It works fine. :)
However, I can't say the same thing about my DirecTV HR10-250, AVR and TV in the same alignment. :(

Anyone using the 2930 or 3930 with a Sony KF-xxWE610 LCD TV via DVI?
I was wondering if the handshaking works. I will probably go component anyways but I didn't want to purchase the DVI to HDMI cable if it didn't work.
I'm using a DVD-3930CI with an HP-LC2640N LCD TV and it did not work using HDMI->to->DVI connection. Not sure if I missed some switch or something- I may try it again. But I switched everything over to component for now.

There are a few notes in the manual specifying that while it should work for HDMI-to-DVI there are some combinations that will not work for whatever reason.

I am; the 3930CI and the KF50WE610, through the Denon AVR 3806. It works fine. :)
However, I can't say the same thing about my DirecTV HR10-250, AVR and TV in the same alignment. :(

Well I just picked up a 2930CI. I also picked up a HDMI to DVI adapter (I already had a DVI to DVI cable). Connected the 2930CI directly to the Sony - doesn't work. Blank screen - nothing.

s2silber - did you ever connect your 3930CI directly to your KF-50WE610 (that's what I have too)? Would you be willing to try it for me? I'd be grateful. :)

I'll try it tonight. I use an HDMI/DVI cable, rather than an adapter, but I'll let you know. Did you make sure the player is set to HDMI output? You can do that with the HDMI Selector button on the remote. The 3930CI arrived with the HDMI Selector button set to "Off" so you may want to check that before doing anything rash.

I'll try it tonight. I use an HDMI/DVI cable, rather than an adapter, but I'll let you know. Did you make sure the player is set to HDMI output? You can do that with the HDMI Selector button on the remote. The 3930CI arrived with the HDMI Selector button set to "Off" so you may want to check that before doing anything rash.

Duh! That was it. Helps if you read the whole manual. :)

Thanks!

Duh! That was it. Helps if you read the whole manual. :)

Thanks!

It also helps if the manual is intuitive and covers all the bases (which the Denon doesn't) ;)

Did you make sure the player is set to HDMI output? You can do that with the HDMI Selector button on the remote. The 3930CI arrived with the HDMI Selector button set to "Off" so you may want to check that before doing anything rash.I'll have to re-try my set-up, and make sure the HDMI button is enabled. Thanks for that info!

It's great that those of us in this forum, or this thread, can help each other out with the kind of problems that could be avoided if we had a good manual to consult. Yet I feel sorry for all the other AV enthusiasts who don't read these forums and are left thinking they've got a defective product. It couldn't be good for Denon retailers or the company itself when they have to exchange or refund perfectly good products that are assumed be defective but actually only lack clear directions for their use.

Thanks to AVS fourm. After reading most of the post's in this and oppo 871 thread i got a brand new Denon DVD 3930ci. The 3930ci i ordered from powerseller nyc on tue and it came on sat. The 3930ci replaces my Denon 756s. The 756s is a very good player but my new 3930ci blows it away. I had np setting up my new 3930ci (at least the basics) because of all the other post's in this thread. Thanks to all for all your post's. I can say that for me i made the right choice.

If I do use HDMI connection (on DVD-3930CI) I'm still not confused, whether I should also use the 5.1ch (analog) audio connections for DVD-A output?

Page 12 of the manual has a brief note stating:
"The audio signals of this unit and stereo areas of Super Audio CD's are not HDMI output."

I'll have to re-try my set-up, and make sure the HDMI button is enabled. Thanks for that info!you know what?......HDMI-to-DVI connection works! I simply enabled the HDMI "SELECT" button (the manual is just not well layed-out).

Now I've been sitting here, switching back-and-forth, from component-video input (via-Yamaha RX-V1600 receiver), to HDMI input, and it is very interesting- the component-video input is "native" resolution (stand-Def), while I have the HDMI input set for 1080i. The HDMI picture has better resolution, however, it exhibits sort of a white "haze" over-all. While the component-video picture exhibits very "rich" color, very nice to the eye, although resolution is slightly less (especially on close-up's, skin texture is just not as fine as HDMI). I'm using "The Break-Up" DVD-Movie to test.

Why does the HDMI picture have a more "white-ish" look (and maybe slightly "fuzzy"), while the component-video picture has a nice "richer" look to the overall balance (maybe slightly less resolution though)?