From the HomeTheaterSpot-

Denon will have the following models coming out sometime this summer:

DVD1730 - $169
DVD1930ci - $349
DVD2930ci - $849
DVD3930ci - $1499

All have upscaling via HDMI. The 2930 and 3930 will be using the Silicon Optix Realta T2 chip.

Should be unvield in September. Interesting....

Spero D.

Cool. Thanks for the info. Is the T2 chip the same as what's being used now in the 5910 and external scalers coming out? (I don't know if they share the same "chip" or features).


larry

Cool. Thanks for the info. Is the T2 chip the same as what's being used now in the 5910 and external scalers coming out? (I don't know if they share the same "chip" or features).


larry

Only the 3930 will have the T2. The 2930 will sport the new SI Reon chip.

Only the 3930 will have the T2. The 2930 will sport the new SI Reon chip.

Isn't the REON one of SO's chips, rather than SI?

Ok, this is nice to hear, and I assume they are 'Universal' players, but I need to know which ones will support:

D-Link
480i over HDMI

Also... what do we know about the Reon chip? Any better than the current DCDi Faroudja(sp?)?

shane

Isn't the REON one of SO's chips, rather than SI? Yes. The Reon is made by Silicon Optix and problably less costly and has less features than the Realta.

larry

From the SO web site. I left out feature descriptions that don't apply to a DVD player:

"Reon-GX supports a comprehensive video and graphics processing feature set, providing a highly integrated, cost-effective solution for mainstream consumer products. Key features include dual independent video or graphics inputs, fully automatic 1080i-to-1080p de-interlacing with 3:2/2:2 pull-down, advanced scaling and frame rate conversion, advanced PIP/PAP/POP view modes, bitmapped OSD, an integrated ARM CPU and gamma correction for high quality image output."

Sounds like the 3930 has the potential to be a phenemenal player and even better than the 3910.

If I didn't already own the 2900, I would be all over the 3930.

A bit astray, but why is Denon naming them the 2930 and 3930,
jumping over the '20' suffix? They have the 19'20', correct? Just
curious......................George

If the 3930 is using the T2, is that for deinterlacing too? I.e., no more Faroudja and MB?

Ok, this is nice to hear, and I assume they are 'Universal' players, but I need to know which ones will support:

D-Link
480i over HDMI
Since no Denon currently outputs 480i over HDMI, I assume these new ones won't either.

If the 3930 is using the T2, is that for deinterlacing too? I.e., no more Faroudja and MB?
Yes, say goodbye to Faroudja/MB. Serves Faroudja right for not fixing this problem (now none of the high end players use Faroudja - Denon, Pioneer Elite, Onkyo, Marantz).

Although tempted to upgrade from the 3910, it just doesn't make sense now with HD/BR on the horizon. A Denon HD/BR player would be sweet!

Only the 3930 will have the T2. The 2930 will sport the new SI Reon chip.

where do you get this info ?

Although tempted to upgrade from the 3910, it just doesn't make sense now with HD/BR on the horizon. A Denon HD/BR player would be sweet!
I'd agree with that as well - hang onto the gear you've currently got for another 1-2yrs and then upgrade once they iron out the bugs in the first generation on HD/BR players.

Does anyone know if these players will support HDCD?

Can I wait until September.......?

Isn't the REON one of SO's chips, rather than SI?

According to SO site the Reon is "powered by Teranex".

Teranex is the same company that makes the Realta.

http://www.siliconoptix.com/chipProducts/Realta.cfm?CFID=4786521&CFTOKEN=c8e81bbbe6041c03-8C719F2A-C4FE-6A8E-9DA602CE81142155

There is an interesting link to a video clip regarding this chip on the SO site.

Not sure what this means. Are they the same company or are is Reon buying Teranex technology for their chips

Since no Denon currently outputs 480i over HDMI, I assume these new ones won't either.


If your assumption is correct... it's a real shame. :(

shane

The 5910 doesn't support 480i over HDMI? If not, yeah, I guess the 3930 probably wouldn't either.

Does anyone know if these players will support HDCD?

Can I wait until September.......?
Since the 2910, 3910, and 5910 all do, I would assume the new players will as well.

Although tempted to upgrade from the 3910, it just doesn't make sense now with HD/BR on the horizon. A Denon HD/BR player would be sweet!
It attracts me as a final (probably) SACD/DVD-A player since (1) support for those formats is not likely in the future and (2) I have a wall of SACD/DVD-A discs.

Kal

where do you get this info ?

Denon dealer training on Monday. I hope they are right! :D

Denon dealer training on Monday. I hope they are right! :D


Did they give you any dates?

Did they give you any dates?
I'd guess September. :D

Actually, they told me CEDIA.

Kal

I'd guess September. :D

Actually, they told me CEDIA.

Kal


When is CEDIA?

September!

Can anyone answer Larry's question on the 3930's T2 chip?

Greetings,


I will consider the 3930 as well. I love my 3910 and DVD A/SACD. Currently HD DVD/BD is something I don't see really taking off for a while. The first generation units will have issues that will need addressing. On top of that software will be limited and expensive initially. I will wait on making the move to either format. Once I do I will seek a capable but lower end player and use it to compliment my setup to start.

The 3930 ( potentially ) will remain in my system until such time as a complete replacement is justified by solid performance and reasonable studio support. I honestly son't see that happening any where near the end of this year or the beginning of next.


Regards,

Since no Denon currently outputs 480i over HDMI, I assume these new ones won't either.

I thought that this was a limitation of the Faroudja chip that the current Denon players are using.

By the way, does anyone have any info on what digital audio interfaces these players will support - i.e, Firewire or HDMI 1.2 for SACDs? Also, any info on bass management capabilities?

Thanks in advance,
Sejin.

Can anyone answer Larry's question on the 3930's T2 chip? Somebody already did. :) The 5910 uses the Realta chip. The 3930 will use the Reon. I believe the new scalers are using the Realta - have to check over in the video processor forum.

larry

Only the 3930 will have the T2. The 2930 will sport the new SI Reon chip.


What is the T2?
Anyone?

According to SO site the Reon is "powered by Teranex".

Teranex is the same company that makes the Realta.



I believe you mean Realta is "powered by Teranex".

Also, Silicon Optix is the company that makes both the Realta and Reon chips. Teranex was purchased by Silicon Optix and is now a division within SO, and its technology (hardware platform and video processing algorithms) is found in Realta, not Reon.

Since Silicon Optix was a spin-off founded by ex-Genesis employees, Reon is probably based on older Genesis technology. Since Genesis owns the Faroudja DCDi technology, I wouldn't be surprised if Reon is similar in performance to Faroudja DCDi. (Don't quote me on this though!) :)

Although tempted to upgrade from the 3910, it just doesn't make sense now with HD/BR on the horizon. A Denon HD/BR player would be sweet!
Why, are you throwing out your DVD collection including the movies that won't be on either format for years?

Actually, it probably wouldn't make sense to step up from the 3910, but I couldn't miss the opportunity. :D

Why, are you throwing out your DVD collection including the movies that won't be on either format for years?
Actually, my DVD collection is pretty small. But I am an avid renter at Netflix, who will be renting both new formats.

How dare you contradict me in any shape, form, or fashion! You are banned from the forum for one day! I may or may not have the authority to do that, so just don't sign on for a day so you don't have to find out. :P

Somebody already did. :) The 5910 uses the Realta chip. The 3930 will use the Reon. I believe the new scalers are using the Realta - have to check over in the video processor forum.

larry
Larry, in another post, it was stated that the 3930 will use the Realta chip while the 2930 will use the Reon. You state in your post above that the 3930 will use Reon. Did you mistype the number? Or do you have a source saying that the 3930 will use Reon?

Oops. I misread a post. The 3930 will have the T2 and 2930 will have the Reon. I believe the T2 is the Realta.

larry

Oops. I misread a post. The 3930 will have the T2 and 2930 will have the Reon. I believe the T2 is the Realta.

larry


Great...thanx. :)

Can anybody confirm that 2930 would have Denon Link?

I thought that this was a limitation of the Faroudja chip that the current Denon players are using.

By the way, does anyone have any info on what digital audio interfaces these players will support - i.e, Firewire or HDMI 1.2 for SACDs? Also, any info on bass management capabilities?

Thanks in advance,
Sejin.

I am afraid it was too early for these products to be developed with HDMI 1.2 Tx. These are just now sampling. I guess 3930 will have both D-link and i.link as in 3910. I am not sure if 2930 will have Denon Link.
My internal source tells me that the BM of 2930/3930 may be as flexible as ones in Denon receiver, but this might be outdated...

Can anybody confirm that 2930 would have Denon Link?

The 2930 will have Denon Link. This was a big issue with Denon dealers as the 3910 was $300 more that the 3806.

As for availability, I was told June on the 2930 and July on the 3930. This was direct from Denon. As most manufacturers go, look for 4-6 weeks delay minimum. Maybe they will suprise us though.

I believe you mean Realta is "powered by Teranex".

Also, Silicon Optix is the company that makes both the Realta and Reon chips. Teranex was purchased by Silicon Optix and is now a division within SO, and its technology (hardware platform and video processing algorithms) is found in Realta, not Reon.

Since Silicon Optix was a spin-off founded by ex-Genesis employees, Reon is probably based on older Genesis technology. Since Genesis owns the Faroudja DCDi technology, I wouldn't be surprised if Reon is similar in performance to Faroudja DCDi. (Don't quote me on this though!) :)
Let's hope that the Reon chip doesn't continue the tradition of macroblocking from the Faroudja... :eek:

What is the T2?
Anyone?


The T2 is an ADVANCED PROTOTYPE POLY-MIMETIC ALLOY TERMINATOR. Wait a minute that was the T1000.

The 2930 will have Denon Link. This was a big issue with Denon dealers as the 3910 was $300 more that the 3806.

As for availability, I was told June on the 2930 and July on the 3930. This was direct from Denon. As most manufacturers go, look for 4-6 weeks delay minimum. Maybe they will suprise us though.
Any word on the inclusion iLink on either model? Personally, I won't buy a player without it since I already have a Pioneer Elite receiver with iLink...

The 2930 will have Denon Link. This was a big issue with Denon dealers as the 3910 was $300 more that the 3806.

As for availability, I was told June on the 2930 and July on the 3930. This was direct from Denon. As most manufacturers go, look for 4-6 weeks delay minimum. Maybe they will suprise us though.

Thank you for your reply. Could you share information with us on 2930/3930's video processing? Will they really have Silicon Optix deinterlacer/upscaler? That sounds too good to believe at their prices.

I am afraid it was too early for these products to be developed with HDMI 1.2 Tx. These are just now sampling. I guess 3930 will have both D-link and i.link as in 3910. I am not sure if 2930 will have Denon Link.
My internal source tells me that the BM of 2930/3930 may be as flexible as ones in Denon receiver, but this might be outdated...
Thanks for the reply - pity about the lack of HDMI 1.2, but at least as far as I am concerned flexible BM options make a good substitute.

By the way, I searched for info on the Reon chip, and found an article on one model dating back to 2004 at http://www.projectorcentral.com/anyplace_projection.htm

I don't know if it is the exact same chip used in the 2930, but I guess the capability should be similar. At least the scaling engine looks decent, judging from the one screen capture in the article.

Regards,
Sejin.

Thank you for your reply. Could you share information with us on 2930/3930's video processing? Will they really have Silicon Optix deinterlacer/upscaler? That sounds too good to believe at their prices.

I really can't just yet. Just that both will use SI chips with the 2930 using the Reon and the 3930 getting the T2.

Hi everybody,

are there more information about the 3930 available? Will he support HDMI 1.2/1.3 already?

Thanks a lot.
Michael

The 2930 will have Denon Link. This was a big issue with Denon dealers as the 3910 was $300 more that the 3806.

As for availability, I was told June on the 2930 and July on the 3930. This was direct from Denon. As most manufacturers go, look for 4-6 weeks delay minimum. Maybe they will suprise us though.
Yes, July for the 3930. That's what I was told directly by Denon, too.

Is the 3930 supposed to be the "poor man's 5910," or is this going to be newer/better tech than the 5910? If so, I'll be pissed.

Is the 3930 supposed to be the "poor man's 5910," or is this going to be newer/better tech than the 5910? If so, I'll be pissed. It still remains to be seen. What features will be "on" in the Realta chip? What scaler will be used? Audio? However, life on the bleeding edge is always just slip and slide away from something newer, better, and sometimes cheaper. :)

larry

Here's what I was told by Denon about the 3930:

"...it will be a DVD-5910 for less money. Silicon Optix for video processing and scaling (up to 1080p), audio is upgraded. Same price as the 3910 as well. One other point of contention for buying a 3930 is that no one knows how good the scaling for SD material will be in these new HD players, so you may be downgrading your collection of movies..."

Do you think they meant 'audio is upgraded' relative to the 5910? That would be remarkable.

So, they're using SO Realta for scaling: that revives the question as to why Denon originally selected DVDO scaling over Realta for the 5910. Maybe it wasn't ready back then, although the fact they reuse it in the recent 5910ci, suggests they regard the DVDO as better.

In the context of my correspondence, the upgrade referred to the 3910.
What I didn't ask was whether the 3930 will become their new flagship, or whether the 5910 will, itself, be upgraded.
Denon also told me that they "will not have a next generation DVD player till 2007, as many critical technologies are not yet in place, and won't be till later this year. These include HDMI 1.3, which is critical to transmit dtsHD and Dolby Digital+, and just as important is the capability for our receivers to have 1.3 and the included surround formats - dtsHD is ready now (however 1.3 is not due till fall) and DD+ won't be ready for AVRs till late fall/winter. We want to be sure to offer our customers the complete solution, not just pieces of it."

Denon also told me that they "will not have a next generation DVD player till 2007...."

Any word on which format Denon will focus on for this next-gen player, HD-DVD or Bluray?

Denon is part of the BlueMan group, or whatever it's called, but they're "keeping their options open" on what format(s) to support.

Is the 3930 supposed to be the "poor man's 5910," or is this going to be newer/better tech than the 5910? If so, I'll be pissed.
The 3910 was better than the 5900 for video, so it does not surprise me that the 3930 will match the 5910 for video. If it matches the 5910 for audio, it will be mighty tempting (please kill this thread before I get too tempted!!!).

Do both the 3910 and 5910 use Burr Brown 1792 for their DACs? I wonder what (audio) DACs are planned for these new models?

No, the 3910 uses BB PCM-1796.

This is exciting news, should be my "final" SD player upgrade from my 3910 :D

I have a brand new still in the box Marantz 9600 sitting on my family room floor. Same idea: "last, best" SD player. Be interesting to see how the 3930 ends up. I really wish it would output 480i though.

man...this is REALLY tempting! D@MN you Denon.....D@mn you all to hell :D

I'm like BillP....I want to wait for the next-Gen player, but man, this is tempting!!

man...this is REALLY tempting! D@MN you Denon.....D@mn you all to hell :D

I'm like BillP....I want to wait for the next-Gen player, but man, this is tempting!!

Honestly I think you are going to be waiting a long time for a decent next-gen player. Personally I'm waiting for a nice HD universal from someone like Denon. Besides you can always trade in your old one :D

Honestly I think you are going to be waiting a long time for a decent next-gen player. Personally I'm waiting for a nice HD universal from someone like Denon. Besides you can always trade in your old one :D

find me a place to trade in, and you got a deal :D

man...this is REALLY tempting! D@MN you Denon.....D@mn you all to hell :D

I'm like BillP....I want to wait for the next-Gen player, but man, this is tempting!!


Me too.

With HD DVD already out for less than half the price of a 3930 it's tempting to go that route too.

I'm just glad I held back when I was ready to pull the trigger on either the 3910 or 79avi last week.

Me too.

With HD DVD already out for less than half the price of a 3930 it's tempting to go that route too.

I'm just glad I held back when I was ready to pull the trigger on either the 3910 or 79avi last week.

The Toshiba player does a very nice job of upscaling SD too. I was VERY pleasantly surprised. So much, that it's my main player for SD now.

You also have to remember that the Toshiba is not going to compare to the Denon Redbook,SACD and DVDA performance.

I thought I read that the Toshiba units were not passing BTB ?

I know having a 2910 here and my 2900 as my main unit which is going in for repair I am on the fence about getting a newer unit for my dvd and audio listening like the 3939 or get the 2930 depending on its audio compared to the 2900
so that will be the thing for me is how it will do audio and as long as the video is as good or better than the 2900 or 2910 all the better ;)

How much credit do you think Tweeter, etc would give on a 3910 trade-in toward the 3930?

How much credit do you think Tweeter, etc would give on a 3910 trade-in toward the 3930?

Don't know, I'm going to see what AVS does for me. If it's not worth my time, I'll just give it to my pops and buy the 3930 straight up.

You also have to remember that the Toshiba is not going to compare to the Denon Redbook,SACD and DVDA performance.

and audio performance is one of the reasons I want the Denon

I thought Tweeter gave you a four month trade up (you pay the difference) timeline.

I thought Tweeter gave you a four month trade up (you pay the difference) timeline.
But my 3910 is 2 years old. If it costs me around $500 to upgrade, I'd be very tempted. But if it's $1000, I'll wait a year, when the 3950 will probably come out with BR and/or HD support.

That makes sense. And this pisses me off a bit. I ended up buying a Sony 3100ES because of the MB issue with the FLI based players. The sony has a fantastic picture, but there are some mechanical quirks that annoy me a little. Now I have to him and haw over whether or not to get this new 3930...what a pain.

The Toshiba player does a very nice job of upscaling SD too. I was VERY pleasantly surprised. So much, that it's my main player for SD now.


I totaly agree with this.
Our local BB had one up-converting SD-DVD. the picture looked pretty good.
I have seen many members on this forum posting how terrible this player was going to play SD-DVD's.
I for one don't think they had seen one playing before posting those comments.

Craig

That makes sense. And this pisses me off a bit. I ended up buying a Sony 3100ES because of the MB issue with the FLI based players. The sony has a fantastic picture, but there are some mechanical quirks that annoy me a little. Now I have to him and haw over whether or not to get this new 3930...what a pain.
It's terrible having such difficult life decisions :D

Honestly I think you are going to be waiting a long time for a decent next-gen player. Personally I'm waiting for a nice HD universal from someone like Denon. Besides you can always trade in your old one :D

According to Denon, there will not be a universal player unless someone rewrites the copyright protection laws. Right now it is legally unlawful to have these 2 formats in the same box. It is impossible to do. Of course they did say they were also currently looking for "loopholes" in the law.

According to Denon, there will not be a universal player unless someone rewrites the copyright protection laws. Right now it is legally unlawful to have these 2 formats in the same box. It is impossible to do. Of course they did say they were also currently looking for "loopholes" in the law.

Oh baloney, I don't believe for two seconds that there won't be a universal player. What about SACD and DVDA?

Oh baloney, I don't believe for two seconds that there won't be a universal player. What about SACD and DVDA?

Well, you can believe what you want. My info came straight from a Denon rep while I was in their training course. DVD-A and SACD is another ballgame. This also did not happen overnight and SACD digital transmission did not happen for a quite a while (4-5 years) after its introduction. Yes, you may be correct in their will be a universal player but it probably won't happen for a while. I believe the format war may be settled before we actually get a universal and in that case there will be little need.

... I was told June on the 2930 and July on the 3930. This was direct from Denon. As most manufacturers go, look for 4-6 weeks delay minimum. Maybe they will suprise us though.

It seems odd Denon would quietly launch new players in mid summer and not at a CEDIA event. Then again more people are going to want to hear about HD/BR, not improved SD players.

Like many out there I put off buying the 3910 last year because HD/BR was suppose to be around the corner. Now that HD is starting to unfold the more a 3930 player makes sence. As long as the price is right.

It seems odd Denon would quietly launch new players in mid summer and not at a CEDIA event. Then again more people are going to want to hear about HD/BR, not improved SD players.
Denon always releases their new players in the summer (the 3910 came out 2 years ago around June).

That makes sense. And this pisses me off a bit.
Welcome to the world of electronics. You can always buy a better computer for less money around 6 months after you buy one. The 3910 was a better player than the 5900, for a lot less money, so the 3930 being a better player for the same money as the 3910 does not surprise me at all.

Denon always releases their new players in the summer (the 3910 came out 2 years ago around June).

If memory serves me, wasn't the 3910 not available until after the fall CEDIA expo?

I wonder if the 2930 will have i-link as well as Denon-link? I would try it against the 79avi but I do not want to give up the i-link output. It would be a smart move on Denons part but we shall see.

Bill

I wonder if the 2930 will have i-link as well as Denon-link? I would try it against the 79avi but I do not want to give up the i-link output. It would be a smart move on Denons part but we shall see.

Bill
I'm wondering (and hoping for that) too...we shall see...

The 5910 doesn't support 480i over HDMI? If not, yeah, I guess the 3930 probably wouldn't either.

If your goal is to output 480i, aren't you foregoing the benefits of the new chip?

If memory serves me, wasn't the 3910 not available until after the fall CEDIA expo?
No, the 3910 came out in the summer (mine was among the 1st or 2nd batch, with a June build).

If your goal is to output 480i, aren't you foregoing the benefits of the new chip?

Flexibility. :) There are a lot of makers that output 480i. Denon should too.

"there will not be a universal player unless someone rewrites the copyright protection laws. Right now it is legally unlawful to have these 2 formats in the same box."

To be correct: there are no copyright (or other) laws that disallow dual-format players - there are no federal or state laws that make it illegal per se to have both formats in the same player.

Each patent/copyright holder of their respective format has the right to license the format. Such a right provides the holder with the legal ability to restrict or deny a third party from using the format. A violation of that license right may involve a copyright law. But that is much different than a law which would preclude the third party from attempting to obtain and/or using the two licenses in the same unit, or building and/or selling such a dual-purpose unit.

Additionally, each format has its own organization with rules which prevent/restrict licensing and/or use in a dual-format situation.

Rewriting the copyright laws is not necessary (and would not be a good idea right now in this context). What would be necessary to enable a dual-format player is the reversal of the licensing restrictions in this regard.

There may be other technical reasons why a manufacturer may decide not to market a dual-purpose HD player.

But all this is much different than a civil or criminal statute that seeks to prevent the development and sale of such a player.

If you had to make a guess now which side do you think Denon will support Blu-Ray or HD-DVD?

When would we see a player late 06 or 07?

No hd player until 2007, according to Denon. As to which format, they're "officially" in the BluRay group, but they're sitting on the fence to see where things land.

Anyone have any late breaking news on this? =)

I have a brand new still in the box Marantz 9600 sitting on my family room floor. Same idea: "last, best" SD player. Be interesting to see how the 3930 ends up. I really wish it would output 480i though.

To me, the whole point of outputting 480i is to bypass the usually crappy internal doubler/scaler of the player (assuming it doesn't have any other issues) so you can output the original signal into a better external scaler. But now, with these new SO chips, it really doesn't get much better than this, at least for deinterlacing. So as long as the player gets the basics right (which usually effects both 480i and 480p the same way), the need for 480i output on these new Denon players seems moot, only because the SO chips are already so good.

P.S. Thanks again for loaning your 9600 to Kris for his review. You rock, dude! :cool: If I had 2 grand to drop on a uni-player, I'd take the 9600 in a second! But thats a little too rich for my blood, so hears to hoping that the 2930 or the 3930 can come close to your badboy. ;)

I'm probably not going to keep the 9600. :) It won't do remaining track time, remaining disc time, or total disc time. Good video and audio are ... good, but this is a convenience feature the 59AVi has that I can't live without. So I'll be keeping an eye on the Denon and the new Arcam when they come out.

I wonder if they're keeping the same styling for these players?

I wonder if they're keeping the same styling for these players?

We can only pray, I don't need some silvery nonsense that looks like it came from the 80's in my rack.

I wonder if they're keeping the same styling for these players?

I doubt it. Denon stated they would not longer be doing silver. In their own words, "black is the new silver".

I doubt it. Denon stated they would not longer be doing silver. In their own words, "black is the new silver".

:eek: does that apply to Europe too?

I wonder if they're keeping the same styling for these players?
I hope so, in case I want to swap it with the 3910 currently in my wall unit without my wife knowing.

I wish they'd make their minds up which colour is black, er, or silver.

I hope so, in case I want to swap it with the 3910 currently in my wall unit without my wife knowing.
hah!

I'm probably not going to keep the 9600. :) It won't do remaining track time, remaining disc time, or total disc time. Good video and audio are ... good, but this is a convenience feature the 59AVi has that I can't live without. So I'll be keeping an eye on the Denon and the new Arcam when they come out.

I couldn't believe that about the 9600 having no time display options when I first heard about it. That's like naming Frogger, "Highway Crossing Frog"! ("Thats so lame!" - Sean William Scott. "I know! Its the lamest thing I've ever heard! Highway Crossing Frog?!...." - Will Ferrel) I too am keeping an eye on the Denons and possibly the Oppo 970 but for video only.

I hope so, in case I want to swap it with the 3910 currently in my wall unit without my wife knowing.


That's hilarious! You made my night. When I added a dac one time, my wife never would have noticed. It took her forever to figure out something was different and the only reason that she did was the thing was gold instead of silver or black:-)

I hope so, in case I want to swap it with the 3910 currently in my wall unit without my wife knowing.
And I thought I was the only "sinner" who did things like that. ;)

I do it with my golf clubs all the time. She will notice if the replacement player is silver. An HDTV display, though, would be a lot tougher. I'm actually half kidding, but very, very tempted, especially since the 1st generation of high def players (either format) have no interest for me (I'll be waiting for a bug-free player that also plays SACD).

I do it with my golf clubs all the time.
Okay, guys. Let's hear a few more confessions like this.
If your wives are anything like mine, the chance that you'll get busted if they read this forum are about as great as the possibility that I'll sit down to watch two hours of HGTV. :D

My wife doesn't care and I don't count her shoes.

Kal

I got away with this several times on the wife when I wanted to upgrade the video card or processor on the computer or put in the performance ECM chip in my Volkswagen; but when I tried sneaking in the Paradigm Studio 60s on my wife...she kind of noticed. :o

Now I have a Denon 2910 on its way to my house, and I'm wondering if she'll notice it over the cheap slim silver Sony DVD player its replacing...

My wife doesn't care and I don't count her shoes.

Kal
Yeah, but for you it's the "tools of the trade." :cool:

Yeah, but for you it's the "tools of the trade." :cool:
Sure but I probably spend more than I make at it. Good thing I have a "day job."

Kal

PCM-1796 is pefect.
1080p is cool, altough an excellent 720p is more important for me than a mediocre 1080p.

If they manage to beat the Oppo Digital for video quality that will be excellent.

As for the audio quality, personally I am interested ONLY in 2-channels and about the size of the power supply (which serve both the audio and the video).

Both 2930 and 3930 I think will be overpriced, especially for the current market condition (dvd players sales started to decline).

Will these have Divx/Xvid playback?

Will these have Divx/Xvid playback?
Pardon my ignorance, but what's that? :confused:

What is Divx?
http://www.divxmovies.com/info/

What is Xvid?
http://www.xvidmovies.com/info/


Essentially, a format that you download from the net, then burn to DVD, and the player can play it.

Hrm this might be the impetous for me to upgrade my 2910... though I really wish they would have been able to include HDMI 1.2 for SACD. I guess i-like is good enough though.

I-link is probably better than HDMI V1.2 for SACD.

HDMI has synchronous control of the video data, up to a point, but no control over the audio data - it's open ended, and the audio clock has to be regenerated by the sink.

I-Link is isochronous, so the audio data rate is controled with an adaptive flow-control mechanism. Not a closed-lock loop, but pretty good. It should be significantly better than SPDIF or HDMI with a suitable amp.

Nick

For receivers without iLink, are there any universal players that convert multichannel DSD/SACD into PCM for transmission over HDMI 1.1?

It should be significantly better than SPDIF or HDMI with a suitable amp.

This is only true if:

a) You get rate control between the player and the receiver or pre/pro. Pio players work with Sony receivers, we know that. :) But there have been other instances between different manufacturers where this is not the case.

Incidentally, flow control is automatic with Denon Link.

b) You believe that jitter is audible. The *only* difference in the data between coax/toslink and i.Link with flow control, is that jitter is minimized with flow control. Otherwise, 1's are 1's and 0's are 0's. Some jitter numbers for current players are: 3910: ~350 ps, Marantz 9600: ~350 ps, Pio 59AVi: ~250 ps, Pio 79AVi: ~150 ps. I have seen references where *some* people don't believe jitter can be audible below 1000 ps, and I've seen other references where they talk about tens of thousands of picoseconds necessary for the audibility of jitter.

I think the real benefit of i.Link isn't that the sound quality is going to be appreciably better than coax/toslink, but that you can transfer DVD-A and SACD digitally, and then get time alignment (distance compensation) and crossover filtering done in the receiver or pre/pro.

The *only* difference in the data between coax/toslink and i.Link with flow control, is that jitter is minimized with flow control. Flow control with i.link help does help, but i.link without flow control has a much better chance (much less jitter, if measureable) than S/PDIF to correctly sample (i.Link doesnt' sample, though) the 1's and 0's. Remember, coax and toslink uses a form of FM (frequency modulation) to send the bits. I've installed complete software systems over an ieee1394 connection. I'd never attempt that with a S/PDIF connection (if it were possible). :)

larry

For receivers without iLink, are there any universal players that convert multichannel DSD/SACD into PCM for transmission over HDMI 1.1?

I don't think there are any. In fact, SACD over HDMI is only supported in HDMI 1.2.

http://www.hdmi.org/about/faq.asp#hdmi_specification

I'd agree. I haven't looked hard, but nobody here at AVS has mentioned a player they own that does SACD (in any form) via HDMI.

larry

Larry- It's the same data, just represented in a different way. Unfortunately, I've never seen a direct comparison between coax/toslink and i.Link for jitter. But here is what I have seen: Hi Fi News (UK mag) did a comparison last year between i.Link, Denon Link, and HDMI with a Denon player and a Denon receiver (top of the line or near top of the line models). Denon Link was the best, followed by i.Link (w/o rate control) followed by HDMI. HDMI was much worse than the others, but the results for i.Link without flow control weren't anything to get excited about.

(All the jitter numbers I gave in the prior post were in the players to their own DACs.)

One thing I do remember is that with coax/toslink, a lot of receivers and probably an even high percentage of pre/pros reclock the incoming data anyway. (Phase lock loops, input buffers, etc.) Personally, I'd still prefer i.Link simply for the all-in-one digital solution, but in the end, I still hold that there simply can't be appreciable differences in sound quality between coax/toslink and i.Link. Remember, we're talking redbook CD, DD, and DTS here. Not SACD (DSD) or DVD-A (much higher rate PCM).

Talked to the Canadian Distributor today.

Early Aug release for the 2930, early Sept. for the 3930.

Hope I can wait that long....

Are these the dates still for the U.S. release?

Are these the dates still for the U.S. release?

I can't imagine the US getting anything later than Canada.

I'd agree. I haven't looked hard, but nobody here at AVS has mentioned a player they own that does SACD (in any form) via HDMI.

larry

Maybe the PS3 will be the one and only device that ever does this?

I can't imagine the US getting anything later than Canada.
It won't. The 3930CI is targetted for release by the end of July.

It won't. The 3930CI is targetted for release by the end of July.For us cheapskates,when will the 1730 be released?

I'd agree. I haven't looked hard, but nobody here at AVS has mentioned a player they own that does SACD (in any form) via HDMI.

larry
Apparently the Oppo DV-970HD does, converts DSD to PCM and then transports over HDMI. I haven't hooked it up yet to verify though. Don't you have one?

I don't understand why all players don't have the option to convert SACD/DSD to PCM for HDMI. Then, i.Link would almost be completely unnecessary.

It won't. The 3930CI is targetted for release by the end of July.
Is there a standard 3930 AND a 3930CI?

I for one REALLY hope they change the design. I think Denon makes the best players but the display on them is waaay to huge!
Hope to see some pics soon. :)

Apparently the Oppo DV-970HD does, converts DSD to PCM and then transports over HDMI. I haven't hooked it up yet to verify though. Don't you have one?
Yup, I do. But I don't have anything that accepts HDMI. I know, I know, I'm in the dark ages. :)

larry

I just discovered this thread today. I can't wait for the 2930. I've been wanting to buy a 2910 for a while, but I couldn't because I just bought a house and had a bunch of expenses with it. Now I can just buy the 2930 instead. My current dvd player is 6 years old. It doesn't even have progressive scan. It was a great dvd player at the time, but it is definitely time to upgrade.

I just discovered this thread today. I can't wait for the 2930. I've been wanting to buy a 2910 for a while, but I couldn't because I just bought a house and had a bunch of expenses with it. Now I can just buy the 2930 instead. My current dvd player is 6 years old. It doesn't even have progressive scan. It was a great dvd player at the time, but it is definitely time to upgrade.

Same story with me. My old Toshiba does a great job but no Progressive scan.
Like you I thought about the 2910 but am seriously thinking about the 2930 or 3930 for the new SO video processors. Might jump to the 3930 for the improved over the 2910/2930.

I talked to my dealer yesterday and he said they have already ordered the 2930 for shipment in July although he said Denon usually runs a month late. He said Denon is not taking orders yet for the 3930.

I talked to my dealer yesterday and he said they have already ordered the 2930 for shipment in July although he said Denon usually runs a month late. He said Denon is not taking orders yet for the 3930.

They better hurry up with the 3930.

Got my income tax return yesterday and it's burning a hole in my pocket.
May have an Arcam in my system by the time the Denon hits the streets.

Has anyone found any pictures of the 2930 and 3930?

Here's what I was told by Denon about the 3930:

"...it will be a DVD-5910 for less money. Silicon Optix for video processing and scaling (up to 1080p), audio is upgraded. Same price as the 3910 as well. One other point of contention for buying a 3930 is that no one knows how good the scaling for SD material will be in these new HD players, so you may be downgrading your collection of movies..."

I have the Tosh HD A1 and Denon 3910. The upconvert on the A1 is phenomenal. I am using that player for everything except SCAD and DVD-A.

I don't know what to tell you; that's what the man said. It's either a matter of opinion or, to hear you tell it, the A1 is doing a better job than expected.

I don't know what to tell you; that's what the man said. It's either a matter of opinion or, to hear you tell it, the A1 is doing a better job than expected.

I wasn't disputing him. I was just relaying that the A1 does an excellent job at upconverting.

I will say that the unit did not pass BTB over HDMI (does over component but not HDMI-go figure.) Tosh just released a firmware update (I downloaded the update via ethernet cable connected to the unit-neat). One of the issues it addressed was the BTB over HDMI issue. The majority of folks say it fixed that issue for them, but my unit still fails the pluge test in DVEssentials.

Gorgeous picture on my Mitsubishi 52628 set though, so I am still very happy with the A1. I still think the Denon is better for audio.

...I still think the Denon is better for audio.
I don't think anyone would argue that Denon is not leagues above Toshiba in audio quality. My hope is that Denon will come out with a BlueRay and/or HD-DVD player that will feature Denon quality audio as well as SACD and DVD-A capability.

I don't think anyone would argue that Denon is not leagues above Toshiba in audio quality. My hope is that Denon will come out with a BlueRay and/or HD-DVD player that will feature Denon quality audio as well as SACD and DVD-A capability.

And with 5910 SD upscaling quality.

Some preliminary info on the 3930 and 2930 models can be found via this thread http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3075613#post3075613 over at avforums, which links to AVLand...

Note, the 3930 is claimed to have a "New ESS Vibrato 'Chroma Bug Free' MPEG/DVD-Audio Decoder"

I see they dropped the DVI output (my display only has DVI input). It also has the same audio DACs as the 3910 (I thought it was supposed to have improved audio). Makes it easier to sit tight with my 3910 until Denon makes a BD or HD-DVD player.

The AV Land prices could not be correct. The GBP-dollar conversion for the price indicated in that link comes out to more than $2,000. Denon has said that the 3930 would be the same price as the current list for the 3910. :confused:

The AV Land prices could not be correct. The GBP-dollar conversion for the price indicated in that link comes out to more than $2,000. Denon has said that the 3930 would be the same price as the current list for the 3910. :confused:
They could sell them for very different prices in Europe. I would not rely on those prices at all for the US market. All sources point to $1500 list for the 3930.

Any idea about if it would be able to output 480/576i through hdmi?

cheers

juan

Denon never has, so I doubt this one would.

Interesting in that the 2930 will have the Teranex Reon HQV but the 3930 will use the Teranex Realta HQV. Looks like the 3930 is the one to have.

The 3930 seems like the 5910's baby brother, since it has the Realta, except no ABT scaling.

Perhaps a 3930 with IscanHD+ combo will be quite nice. 480p out of the 3930 with deinterlacing and noise reduction by the Realta into an IscanHD+ to scale to either 720p or 1080p. Good for folks with IscanHD+, but don't want to shell out for a VantageHD or 5910 to get Realta deinterlacing.

Might be able to pick up a B stock IscanHD+ for less than US$1K?

I wonder if Denon will produce another upgraded 5910/A1XV with "MDDF(Multi-Direction Diagonal Filter)" and "New ESS Vibrato 'Chroma Bug Free' MPEG/DVD-Audio Decoder", presupposing it doesn't already have the former, and the latter is new?

What will the chroma bug free do for us?

Goto the web page from Avland (co.uk) and than to Denon! You can find there more detailed information about the new players 2930/3930! :-)

Regards,
Michael

Nevermind. I found my answer here. (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_2/dvd-benchmark-special-report-chroma-bug-4-2001.html)

Goto the web page from Avland (co.uk) and than to Denon! You can find there more detailed information about the new players 2930/3930! :-)

Regards,
Michael
For the 3930 they don't mention the scaler. But if it's the ABT it looks like they're doing what they did with the 5900/3910 now with 5910/3930. 8MB buffer for layer change - that should make Kevin C. Brown happy. :)

larry

According to the Japanese press release for the 3930-

"Width of layout of the projector is expanded, loading KEYSTONE function

The Keystone function which uses the advanced video scaler anew was actualized. When there is no Keystone function and when detailed adjustment is not possible, the distortion of the image with the projection angle of the projector, holding down the deterioration to picture quality, high picture quality while it is image it revises. When forming the foam/home theater, width of the projector installation position which becomes matter of concern is expanded."

Looks like it may provide a keystone correction algorithm for projectors.

8MB buffer for layer change - that should make Kevin C. Brown happy.

Aw shucks, Larry. :) You remembered.

But the 3910 was never as good as the 2900 though, right? (The 3910 is really, really good, but still has a small delay with some discs. From what I've read, the 2900 was imperceptible with almost all discs.) And, IIRC, the difference between the 3910 and the 2900 was due to the Faroudja processing, right?

So there actually is a hope that the 3930 could be more like the 2900 as far as layer changes go? That would be really cool.

I don't know for sure, but I think these new players are the only players since the 2900 to have an 8MB buffer.

larry

Here some info from the mentioned page:

Denon DVD-3930

Teranex Realta HQV processing
1080p upscaling
New GUI on screen graphics
MDDF(Multi-Direction Diagonal Filter)
DivX Playback (3.11 / 4.x / 5.x/6.0)
DVD Video/DVD Audio/SACD Player with Dolby Digital and DTS decoder
HDMI (High-Definition Multimedia Interface) for direct connection to a Plasma
Digital Link 3rd Edition & i.link for audio, both carry SACD and DVD-Audio
Finest available processing for film, video, graphics or mixed-mode content
Adjustable Chroma Delay and Level, White/Black Levels, CCS On/Off controls
Exclusive Denon Picture Image Correction provides for Vertical and Horizontal pixel enhancement
New ESS Vibrato "Chroma Bug Free" MPEG/DVD-Audio Decoder
Sony CXD-2753 Second Generation DSD Decoder
216 MHz, 4:4:4, 14 bit Video D/A Conversion
8x Oversampling Progressive and 16x Interlace output
Wideband relay switched component video outputs
Variable Black Level (Setup): 0 and 7.5 IRE
Passes below-black (PLUGE) on progressive and interlace outputs
HDMI Multi-Channel Audio Compatible, outputs with selectable 480p/720p/1080i /1080p output
Burr-Brown 24-bit, 192-kHz DSD-1796 Audio DACs that decode PCM and DSD signals separately with no DSD to PCM conversion
40/60/80/100/120Hz crossover points with 12dB high and 24dB low pass slopes
Adjustable delay time and Channel Levels
Source Direct Mode for PCM or SACD, bypasses Bass Management Speaker Configuration, but permits Channel Level and Delay Time adjustments (No conversion of DSD signals to PCM)
JPEG photo file viewer, Kodak Picture and Fujicolor CD compatible
HDCD decoding
AL24 Processing Plus for all 6 Channels
PCM and DSD Compatible IEEE-1394 Outputs, featuring exclusive DENON Clock Synchronized System (DCSS), a proprietary and defeatable system
Anamorphic Scaling for 4:3/16:9 Sets
4:3 Squeeze and Zoom Controls
Pure Direct Modes to defeat unneeded portions of player for the ultimate in audio performance
SRS TruSurround
RS-232C and Remote in/out ports
8MB Buffer to aide better layer change
PAL & NTSC Progressive Scan Output
RGB SCART Socket Optional Products

Specifications for the DENON DVD3930 DVD Player
Disc Playback types DVD Video/DVD Audio/SACD CD-R/RW, MP3, JPEG, S-VCD, Divx, Kodak Picture CD, DVD-R/RW
Voice Response 2 Vrms
Frequency Response DVD 2Hz - 88kHz (192kHz Sampling)
2Hz - 44kHz (96kHz Sampling)
2Hz - 22kHz (48kHz Sampling)
SACD 2Hz - 100kHz
CD Video 2Hz - 20kHz
Total Harmonic distortion 0.0008%
Signal to Noise Ratio 120dB
Dynamic Range 110dB
Power Supply AC 230V, 50 Hz
Power Consumption 60W (1W Standby)
DENON 3930 Dimensions Width 434mm
Height 139mm
Depth 407mm
Weight 11.5kg

Output: Analog 5.1, Optical, Koax, i-link, Component, S-Video, Composite, Scart, HDMI

Thanks but HDMI version 1.?????????

Kal

Thanks Ex-Sunny!
Can you do the same for the 2930?

shane

Thanks but HDMI version 1.?????????

Kal


The Japanese page shows clearly "HDMI 1.1".

The Japanese page shows clearly "HDMI 1.1".
Thanks but that's disappointing.

Kal

I'll be curious to see what the differences are between the Reon and Realta in real world viewing.
I'm assuming, as with the 2910/3910 comparison, that the latter (the 3930) will have better audio.

I'll be curious to see what the differences are between the Reon and Realta in real world viewing.
I'm assuming, as with the 2910/3910 comparison, that the latter will have better audio.

I too am curious how much different the image quality will be. I'm also interested in how they will compare to the current models.

Great to see Divx support. A shame there is no 480i support.

The Japanese page shows clearly "HDMI 1.1".
I'm sure it'll at least be 1.2 since my 2910 is 1.2.

What capabilities does 1.2 offer, and what's expected from 1.3?

I'm sure it'll at least be 1.2 since my 2910 is 1.2.

No Denon player uses HDMI 1.2. Yours is 1.1. In fact, it is unlikely a standard def player will ever use 1.2, as it main feature is passage of the new hi-rez Dolby and DTS formats from the new BluRay and HD-DVD source formats.

I'm sure it'll at least be 1.2 since my 2910 is 1.2.

Actually, your 2910 is 1.1. The 1.2 HDMI specification wasn't final until December 2005, which is after the 2910 was already shipping, I believe, and the Denon page also lists it as 1.1. I'd be happy if the new player can at least convert the SACD to 24/192 PCM over HDMI like the Oppo 970H can. I'd like to have the 6 channel inputs on my reciever free so I can go with BluRay/HD-DVD into that.

No Denon player uses HDMI 1.2. Yours is 1.1. In fact, it is unlikely a standard def player will ever use 1.2, as it main feature is passage of the new hi-rez Dolby and DTS formats from the new BluRay and HD-DVD source formats.

Actually, the only real feature of HDMI 1.2 is the ability to pass 1-bit audio formats (SACD, basically) over it. HDMI 1.3 is the version that adds support for DTS-HD, Dolby TrueHD, and the 48-bit color spectrum.

Actually, the only real feature of HDMI 1.2 is the ability to pass 1-bit audio formats (SACD, basically) over it. HDMI 1.3 is the version that adds support for DTS-HD, Dolby TrueHD, and the 48-bit color spectrum.

You are correct! I got those backwards. It would seem the opposite though, you would think that we need 1.2 to get on players and receivers sooner as folks are starting to get the new hi-rez DVD formats with advanced surround sound.

Actually, your 2910 is 1.1. The 1.2 HDMI specification wasn't final until December 2005, which is after the 2910 was already shipping, I believe, and the Denon page also lists it as 1.1. I'd be happy if the new player can at least convert the SACD to 24/192 PCM over HDMI like the Oppo 970H can. I'd like to have the 6 channel inputs on my reciever free so I can go with BluRay/HD-DVD into that.

Does Oppo convert 6-ch DSD to 6-ch 176.4kHz/24-bit PCM and transmit over S/PDIF? I have been looking for a clue that HDMI 1.1 can handle 6~8 channels of 176.4/192kHz PCM. Could you clarify?

Thanks but that's disappointing.

Kal

I believe you have some gear with i.link or DenonLink 3rd Edition. Does lack of HDMI 1.2 really matter? I'd think 1394-based link with flow control like 2 mentioned above would give you much better clock quality than HDMI can do...

I believe you have some gear with i.link or DenonLink 3rd Edition. Does lack of HDMI 1.2 really matter? I'd think 1394-based link with flow control like 2 mentioned above would give you much better clock quality than HDMI can do...
I HAD some of that gear but no longer and I am looking for a long-term solution for SACD. Going forward, it is likely that variants of HDMI will be more common than either i.Link or DLink.

Kal

I HAD some of that gear but no longer and I am looking for a long-term solution for SACD. Going forward, it is likely that variants of HDMI will be more common than either i.Link or DLink.

Kal
For those of us that want to keep our Denon equipment for a while, I hope the greater popularity of such variants of HDMI does not compromise the availability and/or quality of DLink.

The player will have HDMI 1.1 probably. HDMI 1.2 support already SA-CD via HDMI connection.

Here the information for 2930:

Denon DVD-2930

Teranex Reon HQV processing
1080p Upscaling
DivX Playback (3.11 / 4.x / 5.x / 6.0)
HDMI (High-Definition Multimedia Interface) Digital Link
DVD video Player With a wide range of playable discs
New GUI on screen graphics
D.D.V.C (Dual Discrete Video Circuit)
D.P.I.C (Denon Pixel Image Correction)
216MHz/12bit D/A Converter
AL24 Processing Plus
Pure Direct mode with video circuit off setting
RGB SCART Output
Component video Out
Advanced I/P converter
High-quality aluminium front Panel
Playback of DVD-A, SACD CD-R/RW, DVD-R/RW
Includes MP3 & JPEG playback with on-screen navigator
8 MB Buffer Memory for smoother playback
Dolby Digital, DTS, DVD-A and SACD decoders with 5.1 analogue outputs
PAL & NTSC Progressive Scan Output
Denon Link 3
3 Box chassis layout

Specifications for the DENON DVD 2930 DVD Player
Disc Playback types CDs;; DVD-Audio; SACD DVD-Video; Video CDs; Audio CD-R; Audio CD-RW; MP3 WMA CD-R; MP3 CD-RW DVD-R/RW
Frequency Response DVD 2Hz - 88kHz (192kHz Sampling)
2Hz - 44kHz (96kHz Sampling)
2Hz - 22kHz (48kHz Sampling)
SACD 2Hz - 100kHz
CD Video 2Hz - 20kHz
Signal to Noise Ratio 118dB
Dynamic Range 110dB
Total Harmonic distortion 0.001%
Power Supply AC 230V, 50 Hz
Power Consumption 35W (1W Standby)
Dimensions Width 434mm
Height 102mm
Depth 386mm
Weight 7.6kg

All outputs the same like 3930 with exception I-link (missing)

Hmm... engadget is reporting that the 3930 is going to be ~$1900 and the 2930 ~$1100... is that a screw up on thier part or did Denon up the pricing model? Nice of them to finally dump Faroudja for the companys failure to fix the macroblocking issues though. Still, I'd rather see Denon delving into HD-DVD or BluRay by now. Making high-end DVD players at this point seems like a waste.

Ex-Sunny... you are great. Thanks.
Being that the specs list D-link 3 for the 2930... it looks like that's mine to get! :D

shane

Any word on the inclusion iLink on either model? Personally, I won't buy a player without it since I already have a Pioneer Elite receiver with iLink...
Hm...if I understand these interconnect methods correct, isn't it more important to use the best DACs/video processor, so if the DACs in the Denon are better than the Pioneer Elite receiver (very likely) won't you be giving up better sound quality just so that you have to run one cable instead of many for audio/video quality?

Am I missing something?

So...if I go ahead and buy the Denon DVD 3930 to go with my Denon AVR 3806, what connections will I want to use to get the best audio quality from the various formats, e.g., CD redbook, DVD-A, SACD, DD/DTS movies, etc.?

Hi S2silber

during a business trip I bought some HDMI-cables 4ft (silver line) from Belkin PureAV. They deliver really a superb picture quality. Meanwhile the cables are also available in Germany. :)

Regards, Michael

Hi S2silber

during a business trip I bought some HDMI-cables 4ft (silver line) from Belkin PureAV. They deliver really a superb picture quality. Meanwhile the cables are also available in Germany. :)

Regards, Michael
Thanks, Michael. I must have posted my question in a confusing way. :o I wasn't really asking about the best quality cable, but rather which connections to use, e.g., DLink, HDMI, 2Ch analogue, multi-channel analogue, etc. with different media, e.g., CD, SACD, DVD-A, DD/DTS movies, etc., when running between the Denon 3930 and 3806. Sorry.

s2silber...
Not an expert here, but I think it would depend on two things
1) DACS. Not knowing the DAC's in either unit I can only imagine that those in the 3930 are superior to those in the Receiver.

2) What you plan to do with it. If you want your receiver to have complete functionality with the multi-ch audio you'll need to run the D-3. Otherwise you're stuck with the DVD players adjustments and the analog inputs will bypass all processing and adjustments in the reveiver.

I have a similar issue. I have the 3805 and I KNOW that the 3930's DAC's are superior, but will still probably run the D-3 because of functionality.

shane

So...if I go ahead and buy the Denon DVD 3930 to go with my Denon AVR 3806, what connections will I want to use to get the best audio quality from the various formats, e.g., CD redbook, DVD-A, SACD, DD/DTS movies, etc.?

Coax for DVD-V, and may be CD/DTS-CD
Dlink for DVDA/SACD

Coax for DVD-V, and may be CD/DTS-CD
Dlink for DVDA/SACD

If he's going to go digital with all audio output, why not just use the D-3 for all? Digital is digital (yeah, yeah... for the most part), so what would the spdif advantage be for the two mentioned?

shane

Coax for DVD-V, and may be CD/DTS-CD
Dlink for DVDA/SACD
I disagree. The 3910 DACs are better than the receiver's DACs, so I'd go analog for CD/SACD/DVD-A.

I disagree. The 3910 DACs are better than the receiver's DACs, so I'd go analog for CD/SACD/DVD-A.
Sure... but then why not go analog for everything?
What is the advantage of going digital for DD / DTS?

I guess what I am wondering is:
If digital is what is preferred, why not go digital with everything.
If analog is preferred why not go analog with everything.
Why go one for some and the other for the remainder?

shane

Sure... but then why not go analog for everything?
What is the advantage of going digital for DD / DTS?

shane

Well, if you want to hear it, then a digital to analog conversion must occur (sound is analog)...whether by the player or receiver.

Well, if you want to hear it, then a digital to analog conversion must occur (sound is analog)...whether by the player or receiver.
Well... um... either you haven't read my posts or I haven't made myself clear.

I understand what DAC's are. I understand their function. I've been dealing with A/V for a very long time.

My question is not why convert from D to A, but why would one chose to use D for some types of encoding (DD / DTS) and let the rcvr's DACs do the work, but A (up to the receiver via 6-ch analog cables, letting the player's DAC's do the work) for SACD, DVD-A, etc?

When we have two Denon components capable of D-3 linkage, why would one chose to use it for some sources and the 6-ch analog output from the 3930 for others.

If the 3930's DACS are superior to the receivers', then why not use them for EVERY source... not just some?

Is that more clear?

shane

If the 3930's DACS are superior to the receivers', then why not use them for EVERY source... not just some?
I agree with you. I assume many people's answer is simple convenience. When I listen to CDs or SACDs, I usually listen very critically (not just as background music), and therefore want to optimize audio. When watching a movie, I don't care as much about the audio (I focus more on PQ), so which DACs to use are less important to me in that situation.

Well... um... either you haven't read my posts or I haven't made myself clear.

I understand what DAC's are. I understand their function. I've been dealing with A/V for a very long time.

My question is not why convert from D to A, but why would one chose to use D for some types of encoding (DD / DTS) and let the rcvr's DACs do the work, but A (up to the receiver via 6-ch analog cables, letting the player's DAC's do the work) for SACD, DVD-A, etc?

When we have two Denon components capable of D-3 linkage, why would one chose to use it for some sources and the 6-ch analog output from the 3930 for others.

If the 3930's DACS are superior to the receivers', then why not use them for EVERY source... not just some?

Is that more clear?

shane

Yes...I read your initial posts way too quickly and see what you are saying now.

If the 3930's DACS are superior to the receivers', then why not use them for EVERY source... not just some?
The quality of the DACs is only one issue. Another is the flexibility of the bass management and speaker set-up on the two devices. Usually, AVRs are better at this than are players, so that's one reason to use the digital input.

Kal

Coax for DVD-V, and may be CD/DTS-CD
Dlink for DVDA/SACD
Why not DLink for DVD-V (movies) as well? In other words, what's the advantage of coax over DLink?

@s2Silber

Why don't you use the HDMI-cable for audio/video (DVD, also CD)? The benefit is, you will have only one connection. In case, you want play SACD you can use additional the D3-Link, because HDMI 1.1 doesn't supports the transmission (first 1.2)
All other cables would be redundant. From my perspective there wouldn't be an advantage to use the 5.1 analog output, because there is probably a small lost during the D/A convertion.

Why not DLink for DVD-V (movies) as well? In other words, what's the advantage of coax over DLink?
Yup... same question I asked in post #186.
Digital is digital... D-link v. coax? No difference AFAIK.
Well... except for the obvious: That the d-link will carry the digital SACD and DVD-A signal to your receiver, and the coax will not.
Sonically, none.

shane

So no DVIX support on 2930? Strange...

@Kristoffer
Here the information for 2930:

Denon DVD-2930

[...]
DivX Playback (3.11 / 4.x / 5.x / 6.0)
[...]
;)

No Denon player uses HDMI 1.2. Yours is 1.1.
My mistake. Thanks for the correction guys.

Hi S2silber

during a business trip I bought some HDMI-cables 4ft (silver line) from Belkin PureAV. They deliver really a superb picture quality. Meanwhile the cables are also available in Germany. :)

Regards, Michael

We all know there is a difference between digital cable, especially at 4 ft.

Thanks, Michael. I must have posted my question in a confusing way. :o I wasn't really asking about the best quality cable, but rather which connections to use, e.g., DLink, HDMI, 2Ch analogue, multi-channel analogue, etc. with different media, e.g., CD, SACD, DVD-A, DD/DTS movies, etc., when running between the Denon 3930 and 3806. Sorry.

If you want the best sound, I don't think there is any option but to use multi-channel analog, and running your reciever in direct mode, so there in no further processing done in the receiver end.

The quality of the DACs is only one issue. Another is the flexibility of the bass management and speaker set-up on the two devices. Usually, AVRs are better at this than are players, so that's one reason to use the digital input.

Kal

If we are talking best audio performance and if the Denon 3930 has better dacs than the 2930 and we know that they both the denons give full bass management on the DVD player, would there be any reason to use the digital connections?

If we are talking best audio performance and if the Denon 3930 has better dacs than the 2930 and we know that they both the denons give full bass management on the DVD player, would there be any reason to use the digital connections?
I was speaking generically and the presence of something like Audyssey MultEQ in the AVR might tip the balance.

Kal

If we are talking best audio performance and if the Denon 3930 has better dacs than the 2930 and we know that they both the denons give full bass management on the DVD player, would there be any reason to use the digital connections?
For movies, regardless of the quality of the player's analog output, I would use its digital output so I can use a digital device to fix lipsync delay.

So what is everybody's consensus? When I get a 3930 what way do I go to hook the 3930 up to a Denon 4806 receiver? I plan to use music and movies equally.

So what is everybody's consensus? When I get a 3930 what way do I go to hook the 3930 up to a Denon 4806 receiver? I plan to use music and movies equally.
Seems to be no absolute concensus.
If you are looking for the best audio quality, run analog to your 4806.
If you need to utilize any of the Recievers functions like auto-EQ (if you think this will give you a better SQ) or lip-synch adjustments, you'll be best off using the d-link.

shane

If he's going to go digital with all audio output, why not just use the D-3 for all? Digital is digital (yeah, yeah... for the most part), so what would the spdif advantage be for the two mentioned?

shane

First, I am not sure which of DL3 and S/PDIF is better for CD, due to some unknown implementation detail. But for DVD-V, I believe that the jitter-free clock feature of DL3 won't work with audio along with video. That flow-control feature like i.link(aka HATS, PQLS) uses fixed-frequency crystal oscillator at the receiver side. This is the best for audio, but the problem is the video which can't be synchronized with the receiver side clock.
When you use DL or i.link, and the video is sent along together, designers disable the the flow control to avoid lip-sync error. Then, the audio clock is generated by some PLL at the receiver side. This is known to have pretty bad clock quality. Jitter could go up to uS order, compared to ~ 100ps by crystal oscillator or up to hundreds of nanosecond by S/PDIF receiver PLL.

One more thing to note is about HDMI. HDMI uses similar S/W-controlled PLL to generate audio clock from the video clock that is sent over the physical HDMI link. So, HDMI link has worse clock quality than S/PDIF's as well, unless they use 2nd PLL to reduce the jitter.

I recall Kal doing a comparison between DLink and analog in Stereo Review in which he found that DLink was, basically, just as good for music, but you bring up a good point about video synchronization. I wonder what Kal would say about your argument ;) ?

So what is everybody's consensus? When I get a 3930 what way do I go to hook the 3930 up to a Denon 4806 receiver? I plan to use music and movies equally.
DL3 Never had a problem with video synch.

Kal

DL3 Never had a problem with video synch.

Kal
So, aside from whatever improvements Audyssey might yield in some rooms, sounds like DL3 is a good option for just about everything?

So, aside from whatever improvements Audyssey might yield in some rooms, sounds like DL3 is a good option for just about everything? Technical issues aside, I guess so. While I had the AVR, I ended up using DLink all the time.

Kal

Technical issues aside, I guess so. While I had the AVR, I ended up using DLink all the time.

Kal
And conversely, if lip-synch and Audyssey (type) features of the Rcvr are not of importance, I can't see a reason not to utilize the better DAC's in the player. As said earlier, the 3930 has bass management, so no issues there. ;)

shane

I guess I don't hear a difference between the receiver's DACs and the players DACs when listening to lower fidelity lossy audio like Dolby Digital, DTS, etc. In fact, for reasons already pointed out, I prefer the receiver for such sources because I actually enjoy some of the receiver's DSP settings for certain movies (Adventure on action movies, Spectacle on epics like Gladiator, etc.). And of course the parametric equalization is helpful.

I think I can only start to hear the difference when the audio isn't the potential quality bottleneck such as Redbook CD, SACD, DVD-A. That's why I use the receiver via digital coax for movies and my 2910 DACs for music via analog cables. It's all programmed into my remote so there are no extra steps involved, just the push of a button.

And conversely, if lip-synch and Audyssey (type) features of the Rcvr are not of importance, I can't see a reason not to utilize the better DAC's in the player. As said earlier, the 3930 has bass management, so no issues there. ;)

shane
Now I'm confused again. When using DLink, are the player's DACs or the receiver's DACs employed? And, whatever the answer is, does that go for all media formats?

DLink, like i.Link, sends a digital bit stream to the receiver. Minimally, DACs need to be used in the receiver, if not decoding the format first (DD, DTS, any non PCM format) and then doing BM, time alignment, etc. D/A is last.

larry

Huh?

LOL! With Dlink the recievers DACs are used. Deciphering the rest of my post is good homework. :) With some formats, processing happens in the receiver before D/A (same as if done in the player).

larry

Huh?
:D :D
Yup... what the Scoop said.
The advantage of the D-Link (& i-Link) over Coax or Toslink (Fiber) is that it will not only transfer DD & DTS signals digitally, but also send SACD - DVD-A digital signals to the rcvr. Then the rcvr can use it's DAC's to convert.

shane

Edit: Chances are that most people will NEVER be able to detect the differences in DAC's... assuming they are relatively good. Other factors (like speakers, room acoustics, etc.) are also important in assessing SQ and often have more impact on the sound than the DAC's. Between your reciever's DAC's and the 3930's DAC's... unless you have a real keen ear, listen to just the right music, have great speakers, etc... chances are you're much better off with the D-Link connection as it adds all the convenience of the receiver with a barely detectable loss in SQ.

OK, but now we're back to a much earlier part of the discussion in this thread, i.e., whether the '3930's DACs will be so superior to that of most Denon AVRs on the market now -- at least up to and including the 4306 -- that one would get better overall sound quality by letting it (the 3930) to the processing, rather than the receiver. And, as I understand it, the only way you accomplish that is by using analog connections, and not DLink, or anything else. Or, do I still not get it? :o

And, as I understand it, the only way you accomplish that is by using analog connections, and not DLink, or anything else. Or, do I still not get it? :o

Correct. Hence the name DAC, digital to analog converter.
Take a look at the IC Database at http://www.alexhardware.com/. You will see that most of the higher end Denon receivers use the Burr-Brown PCM-1791 DACs, while the 3910 and probably future 3930 use the superior DSD-1796 DACs.

Just for clarification, I didn't mean that Dlink/i.link will have video synch. problem. It sacrifices the audio clock quality to avoid the video synch. problem, and that's why Denon and I(not that I have any authority) recommend S/PDIF path for DVD-V.

Edit: Chances are that most people will NEVER be able to detect the differences in DAC's... assuming they are relatively good. Other factors (like speakers, room acoustics, etc.) are also important in assessing SQ and often have more impact on the sound than the DAC's. Between your reciever's DAC's and the 3930's DAC's... unless you have a real keen ear, listen to just the right music, have great speakers, etc... chances are you're much better off with the D-Link connection as it adds all the convenience of the receiver with a barely detectable loss in SQ. Finally somebody talking some sense. Too many people get hung up on part numbers and specs and not the implementation for which you can't tell how it will sound until you listen to it.

larry

Finally somebody talking some sense.
Finally somebody reading what I wrote! ;) :D
Thanks Scoop.

shane

Finally somebody reading what I wrote! ;) :D
Thanks Scoop.

shane
LOL! :) Don't mention it...

larry

A Google search of the 2930 has at least one link mentioning a price of $1100 for it; can anyone confirm or officially deny such a ridiculous price increase? :(

Finally somebody talking some sense. Too many people get hung up on part numbers and specs and not the implementation for which you can't tell how it will sound until you listen to it.

larry

I also agree entirely. I would be more concerned with the entire circuit/chain from bitstream to op-amp then just distilling performance down to a single component along the way like "DACs".

There was a similar discussion in the processor forum around a statement that a 3910 would sound better than an RDC 7.1 or D2 becuase it had better BB DACs in it.

I talked to a salesman in Tweeter today and he has the 2930 listed for a sales price of $849-899 (I can't remember which) with a release date in the first week of July.

I talked to a salesman in Tweeter today and he has the 2930 listed for a sales price of $849-899 (I can't remember which) with a release date in the first week of July.

Is this before or after any potential discounts?

I talked to a salesman in Tweeter today and he has the 2930 listed for a sales price of $849-899 (I can't remember which) with a release date in the first week of July.

Thanks for the info. :)

I could live with that, I guess, but not a $400 increase!

A HK website just posted something interesting abt the 2930. If its source is correct, the HDMI output not only supports 480i/576i, it also supports 1024x768, 1280x768, 1280x1024

http://www.avbuzz.com/audio-video/200606/denon_DVD/index.htm

Very interesting about about time ref. 480i if true for both the 2930 and 3930. Then when/if I get the Marantz VP-11S1 I can either chose the Denon to output 480i and let the Marantz's Gennum processing do the scaling or let the Denon output 1080P with the HQV to see which is better out of the 2.

Okay just downloaded the manual and here is what is says (it has gone through bablefish)-

480/576i, 480/576P (standard), 720P, 1080i, 1080P: The video signal of the HDMI connection is converted for the expenditure into the selected resolution. The video output which can be sent with the selection of "480/576i" takes place with 480i with NTSC and with 576i with PAL. The video output which can be sent with the selection of "480/576P" takes place with 480P with NTSC and with 576P with PAL.

Do you press HDMI FORMAT select you the mode? Do you select the video dissolution of the exit which can be spent over the HDMI connection? Now the mode on the announcement is faded in. VGA (standard): The signal is converted into a dissolution of 640 x 480 (60 cycles per second). XGA: The signal is converted into a dissolution of 1024 x 768 (60 cycles per second). WXGA: The signal is converted into a dissolution of 1280 x 768 (60 cycles per second). SXGA: The signal is converted into a dissolution of 1280 x 1024 (60 cycles per second).

Also looks like the Denon menu structure has changed slightly.

Where did you see the new menu? :)

In the manual I downloaded :)

Here you go everyone, its in German but you get the gist- Denon DVD-2930 Manual (http://www.denon.de/site/download.php?datei=datadir/pdf/ba/Bed_DVD-2930.pdf)

I talked to a salesman in Tweeter today and he has the 2930 listed for a sales price of $849-899 (I can't remember which) with a release date in the first week of July.
Ok, great... this is getting very exciting. ;)

shane

Just for clarification, I didn't mean that Dlink/i.link will have video synch. problem. It sacrifices the audio clock quality to avoid the video synch. problem, and that's why Denon and I(not that I have any authority) recommend S/PDIF path for DVD-V.

Can you provide a quote from Denon please?

So, it appears the 2930 and 3930 will have higher pricing than the current "XX10" models.

Based on the post that opened this thread it appears the 3930 will be the same price but the 2930 will be $110 more than its' predecessor.
I'm using the curent MSRP's on the Denon site for comparison.

Anyone know the specs and price of the 1930?

:D :D
Edit: Chances are that most people will NEVER be able to detect the differences in DAC's... assuming they are relatively good. Other factors (like speakers, room acoustics, etc.) are also important in assessing SQ and often have more impact on the sound than the DAC's. Between your receiver's DAC's and the 3930's DAC's... unless you have a real keen ear, listen to just the right music, have great speakers, etc... chances are you're much better off with the D-Link connection as it adds all the convenience of the receiver with a barely detectable loss in SQ.

I agree a 100% with what shane55 is saying but most people who buy $1500 DVD players probably have some nice setups for the rest of their system.

To have any chance to tell the difference between DACs, you really have to sit down and do some critical listening to hear for yourself if the player's DACs are that much better then the Receiver's. With out doing critical listening, it may be hard to tell the difference between MP3, CD red-book or High-Res music formats much less then which DACs you are using.

If you think the player's DACs are better then you have to live with using analog connections and the inconvenience that may bring to using your system. I personally use the stereo analog outs of my 3910 for any 2 channel music and use the D-link for any M/C music. I had two macros in my remote to do the necessary changes to both the 3910 and the 3805 receiver when I switch between modes. If I was setting this up for any less tech savvy people, I would use the D-Link all the way. It truly makes dealing with any music format a non issue.

I bet that when the 3930 and 2930 officially debut, pricing will be lower than the speculated $1500/849 range.

With increasing pressure from HD-DVD and BD players, a higher-end SD player will be a tougher sell. Yes, I realize that the newer gen HD players don't measure up with SD discs, but you're still fighting after the same pool of enthusiasts' dollars.

When you can get spectacular HD performance for under $500, spending 3x that amount on a SD player should give anyone second thoughts.

pricing will be lower than the speculated $1500/849 I wouldn't take that bet. The hidef players won't have the same quality deinterlacer and no audio. With the more expensive chips, the player will problaby be at least the same price as their predecessors. All just a guess...

larry

FYI, I was at Magnolia/Best Buy, yesterday, and, according to their system, the 2930 will sell for $849. However, none of the Magnolia/Best Buys have it in-stock, yet.

I don't remember the price of the 3930...but, I want to say $1,199...

I wouldn't take that bet. The hidef players won't have the same quality deinterlacer and no audio. With the more expensive chips, the player will problaby be at least the same price as their predecessors. All just a guess...

larry

I'm guessing the same. I mean even now it's hard to find a reputable online vendor who sells the 3910 for less than a grand with shipping.

I wouldn't take that bet. The hidef players won't have the same quality deinterlacer and no audio. With the more expensive chips, the player will problaby be at least the same price as their predecessors. All just a guess...

larry

Many folks with the Toshiba HD players are dumping their SD models (that were pretty good to start with). Yes, the audio of the Denons is a key selling point. However, if they're pushing the SO/Teranex quality, certainly they are appealing to avid videophiles. And avid videophiles cannot ignore HD-DVD/BD for overall superb image quality.

Denon's been amortizing the cost of this class of players for several years. Yes, new chips will be slightly more expensive, but we're on the mature life cycle for $1K DVD players. Denon knows how to make 'em pretty good by now. Just look what happened with Pioneers 59avi/79avi. Similar player, newer one MSRP'd for $600 less.

Pricing pressure is HOT in this category. Sony, Pioneer, Toshiba, Samsung, they all go over their new, more expensive player's price points with a fine tooth comb.

By the time CEDIA rolls around in 3 months, it wouldn't surpise me one bit to see a 3930 list at $999, and a 2930 at $699.

Lower prices are always better. We'll just have to wait and see. $999 for the 3930 would be a good deal.

larry

Actually, Toshiba's HDDVD does an EXTREMELY good job at upscaling SDDVD. So good in fact I immediatly sold my 3910. YES, the HD-A1 does a superior job at upscaling SDDVDs to the 3910 does.

Take a read at this http://www.highdefforum.com/showthread.php?t=25018

and the the dozens of other highly positive reviews.

I bet that when the 3930 and 2930 officially debut, pricing will be lower than the speculated $1500/849 range.

With increasing pressure from HD-DVD and BD players, a higher-end SD player will be a tougher sell. Yes, I realize that the newer gen HD players don't measure up with SD discs, but you're still fighting after the same pool of enthusiasts' dollars.

When you can get spectacular HD performance for under $500, spending 3x that amount on a SD player should give anyone second thoughts.

Actually, Toshiba's HDDVD does an EXTREMELY good job at upscaling SDDVD. So good in fact I immediatly sold my 3910. YES, the HD-A1 does a superior job at upscaling SDDVDs to the 3910 does.

Maybe so, but who in their right mind would buy that POS first generation clunker just to play DVDs? I understand your point if you want the HD-DVDs too (I don't), but even then it would seem to make more sense to wait for a second generation player without all the quirks.

And no, I am not a Blu Ray guy. I have no intention of getting either one for several years. I will let you first adapters - read beta testers - have all the fun. :)

Put it this way, if it actually was a POS do you think myself and many others would have sold their high end players? I'm not just saying this because I purchased it. Beyond the slightly long boot time, it works perfectly. But if you aren't interested in hddvd's then I see your point.

Maybe so, but who in their right mind would buy that POS first generation clunker just to play DVDs? I understand your point if you want the HD-DVDs too (I don't), but even then it would seem to make more sense to wait for a second generation player without all the quirks.

And no, I am not a Blu Ray guy. I have no intention of getting either one for several years. I will let you first adapters - read beta testers - have all the fun. :)

I certainly wouldn't call the HD-A1 a POS. It's very solid and has good components. Performance is excellent for SD, as well.