I couldn't get in at first. What I finally did was this. Go to Windows Firewall (in Control Panel or Security Center), go to advanced tab, click on settings for local area connection, check FTP server. Although I changed a bunch of settings trying to get it to work, this is what I think finally allowed me in.

If you've got the HDNet file, I can convert it no problem to a HD DVD image. Still not sure exactly how accurate/useful these patterns will be after the conversion.

Thanks, I'll give that a try later. If I can get in, I'll just upload the mpg file itself. I can't create the ISO.

As to how useful it will be, I think it will be as useful as the HDNet test pattern ever is. At least on my system, the file doesn't need to go through any sort of conversion. MF5 just reformats the video data to EVO files. If your system converts the video, maybe it would be better to upload the entire HVDVD folder.

Hey, I can give ftp access to whoever wants to upload an iso when it is made.

Thanks, I'll give that a try later. If I can get in, I'll just upload the mpg file itself. I can't create the ISO.

As to how useful it will be, I think it will be as useful as the HDNet test pattern ever is. At least on my system, the file doesn't need to go through any sort of conversion. MF5 just reformats the video data to EVO files. If your system converts the video, maybe it would be better to upload the entire HVDVD folder.


The .ts file would be better if you have it, and no, MF5 is just reformatting data for me too. However, I am able to create a disc image which is ready to burn.

I just want to THANK everybody who writes in this tread!!
I have regreted that i sold my D-Vhs since day one! But know that i can Burn my .TS instead of streaming them! I am a very happy man :p .
Just been doimg this for 2 days and already burnt 5 movies, works perfect!!

Has anybody tried to Backup a 1080p .TS movie?


Once again THANKS for all of your EFFORTS!!

All the clips I've created discs for at this point were all edited using VideoRedo+. In Video Properties (in VRD) they show up as 1920x1080, so I haven't had any that have been re-encoded in MF5... they just sometimes take a while to load in, although improved since I started storing my program streams on another drive.

Adding chapters.... I gave up on that, but if anyone can report that it does actually complete (Windows says the program is not responding) after a couple of hours, then I'll give it a try ;)

All the clips I've created discs for at this point were all edited using VideoRedo+. In Video Properties (in VRD) they show up as 1920x1080, so I haven't had any that have been re-encoded in MF5... they just sometimes take a while to load in, although improved since I started storing my program streams on another drive.

Adding chapters.... I gave up on that, but if anyone can report that it does actually complete (Windows says the program is not responding) after a couple of hours, then I'll give it a try ;)

Hello
Do you also use Videoredo to convert the .TS files into Mpeg? or do you also use mpeg-vcr as everybody else?

I use VideoRedo+ for both... it can read (and write) the transport stream (.ts), I edit, and then "Save As..." and select program stream from the dialog box. Quick and easy.

I use VideoRedo+ for both... it can read (and write) the transport stream (.ts), I edit, and then "Save As..." and select program stream from the dialog box. Quick and easy.

There is some problem with using VideoRedo (or sometimes H2M) for this process on my system. Let me give an example of the difference in speed.

1. I take a 30 minute Rick Steves' Europe episode (.ts file) captured from Dish with a Nextcom R5000 system. I edit it with Womble MPEG-VCR. The result is a 26+ minute program in mpg format (program stream). I uncheck the option to create a menu. This slows things to a crawl. I don't need menus for single episode shows anyway.
2. I import that mpg file into Movie Factory 5. Total time to import the file and bring up the option to insert chapters, about 5 seconds (that's seconds).
3. I do an auto chapter creation at 5 second intervals. Total time, about 10 seconds or less. This allows me to go through the show very fast, much faster than the fastest scan.
4. I click next to get to the HVDVD folder phase. I burn a folder called "HD DVD My Current Show." Total time depends on the size of the project, but it is barely longer than the total time it takes to copy the content from the mpg file to the new folder as EVO files. (In my case that's as long as it takes to copy, say, 4.7 GB from one 500 GB striped array to another.)

The entire process is not a lot longer than a straight copy. The additional time is taken up mainly with clicking and creating a new folder on an array.

When it works this way, there is no re-encoding and the video look identical to the original.

When I use VideoRedo, the loading of the file into Movie Factory 5 takes from minutes to hours to complete. I clocked the auto chapter creation process at 5 hours to create about 12 chapters. Sometimes it works when I get to the burn folder phase and sometimes it gives me an error message (mpg not compatible with this DVD engine). Even with MPEG-VCR, sometimes I get the same results - mollasses at every stage. MF5 just doesn't like certain MPEGs. If it goes slow, it also re-encodes audio to 2-channel.

As I said, what we need here is someone with more experience than I have to examine some .ts files and see what kind of mpg streams MF5 has trouble with. Any volunteers?

Again, here are some of the things I've had success with:

1. Almost all 1080i episodes from OTA broadcast television. (720p shows form ABC and Fox all require re-encoding and I haven't done a lot of that.)
2. Rick Steve's Europe.
3. Smart Travels.
4. Battlestar Galactica from Universal HD.
6. Miscellaneous Discovery HD shows (documentaries, etc.).
7. Men in Black (most movies are no go for me).
8. Miscellaneous other shows.

I've had failures with:

1. Most movies.
2. HD Getaways (Bora, Bora is my favorite program to show off my home theater).
3. Road Trip (the fluffy Travel Channel show with Steve and Tina). Even MPEG-VCR can't deal with those mpg files.
4. My own material shot on my HC1 if I try to use menus (looks like a field dominance issue).

I'd appreciate help from someone who could put these files under a "microscope" and tell us what's different about them than the success stories.

Joe , I'd love to be able to help you solve your problem. I've authored close to 60 HD-DVDs succesfully thus far. They are mostly movies and all of them work perfectly. Its the same procedure I follow for each disc. No surprises. Almost gets monotonous after awhile. If you want to send me some test files I'll see if we can get to the bottom of the problem you're having. PM me if neccesary.

Marc.

Joe , I'd love to be able to help you solve your problem. I've authored close to 60 HD-DVDs succesfully thus far. They are mostly movies and all of them work perfectly. Its the same procedure I follow for each disc. No surprises. Almost gets monotonous after awhile. If you want to send me some test files I'll see if we can get to the bottom of the problem you're having. PM me if neccesary.

Marc.

Thanks, Marc, I'll do that. I'm pretty busy for the next day or so, but I'll PM you and maybe we help me work it out.

I think it is pretty safe to assume at this point that all the people here who have CONSISTENTLY had success with this HDDVD authoring process are those with an early version of the MF5 software that has the ISO feature in it. Those of us having the later versions only managed to have sporadic successes for some reason. It is always a hit or miss with the burned HDDVDs. I would love to hear that my theory here is completely wrong. But I am afraid that when they took out some main features in HD like BD authoring, ISO from the initial version along with them went away some important elements in the software that would have made MF5 function properly.

I have spoken to Ulead tech support several times about this very issue and they acknowledged there would be patches released later this summer for Ulead MF5. They told me they were aware of the fact that the current version of MF5 did NOT always work for creating a flawless HVDVD_TS folder. And they even offered a refund and suggested I not waste my time before the new version comes out later this summer.

Well I hope Ulead will follow up on that promise because a lot of us didn't get the Toshiba HD-A1 /X1 just for watching the same dozen movies over and over.

That's interesting about the update.

From where I am, I haven't had real problems except slow processing of files from VideoRedo+, as Joseph described. My recordings are all 1080i though.

That VideoReDo worked perfectly for me. I guess I need to buy it now along with MF% since I'm using the trial versions.

That VideoReDo worked perfectly for me. I guess I need to buy it now along with MF% since I'm using the trial versions.

Just a caution, Aaron - I have lots of problems with VideoRedo and I have the full version of MF5, not the trial. I bought VideoRedo long ago and it's a great program with a slick interface, but it doesn't work well at all for most files I've created for use with MF5. Womble's MPEG-VCR does work well and it's faster as an editor. It's interface is stuck in the past, but it works beautifully. I was even able to salvage several shows (episodes of Battlestar Galactica from UHD that MF5 didn't like). I edited around the HDTVtoMPEG2 edit points in those .ts files with Womble's product, and the files became instantly accessible to MF5.

I have flawless discs and I am using the 5.0.0001.0 version.

Wes

Hey Guys,

INHD tune up is up on my server

ftp.weshill.com (no browser support, you need an FTP client)
user: avsforum@weshill.com
pwd: avsforum

Wes

Just a caution, Aaron - I have lots of problems with VideoRedo and I have the full version of MF5, not the trial. I bought VideoRedo long ago and it's a great program with a slick interface, but it doesn't work well at all for most files I've created for use with MF5. Womble's MPEG-VCR does work well and it's faster as an editor. It's interface is stuck in the past, but it works beautifully. I was even able to salvage several shows (episodes of Battlestar Galactica from UHD that MF5 didn't like). I edited around the HDTVtoMPEG2 edit points in those .ts files with Womble's product, and the files became instantly accessible to MF5.
I tried the MPEG-VCR and it didn't work for me but the VideoReDo worked well for the ts files.

I just burnt my first disc and it worked. I used unnamed DVD+R DL and an NEC writer.

HDTV2MPEG did not work at all for me but MPEG-VCR did. Took about 45 minutes to prep files and the same to burn (Only 2.4X media). I used DVD Decrypter to burn, it detected the unlabelled media as Ricoh and burnt with a book type of DVD-Rom. I got bad sound at first (Prepro lock and unlocked contantly) but changing the digital out from Bitstream to PCM fixed it for me although it converts 5.1 to stereo PCM.

Just a caution, Aaron - I have lots of problems with VideoRedo ....
I've had nothing but good luck with VideReDo. I'm using it with the current Trial download. Granted I only burnt about a half dozen disks, but none of them needed re-encoding and they all played perfectly.

I'm holding off on purchasing an authoring package until I can get one that allows more video formats. We should be able to squeeze 2 hours easily on a single layer with h.264.

Regarding Ulead, I suspect they got their hands slapped by the HD-DVD group for making the ISO disk output available and are covering by saying the inability is a bug. I've dealt with the development team on the HDV capture issues so have a little insight into their mindset.

Regarding Ulead, I suspect they got their hands slapped by the HD-DVD group for making the ISO disk output available and are covering by saying the inability is a bug. I've dealt with the development team on the HDV capture issues so have a little insight into their mindset.

If HD DVD and BD groups have influence over Ulead, this would make perfect sense. Imagine the enormous implication this process would have for HDDVD or BD. If people can record movies in HD version from their TV program and then use Ulead to burn 20 copies for their friends I am sure Ulead would be concerned about being sued for being the enabler in this process. What everybody is doing here with Ulead may or may not be legal but is surely something HDDVD, BD and Hollywood studio have nightmares of seeing.

I would just like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. I'm happily archiving my HD recordings to HD DVDs. My only wish is that MF5 only outputs stereo. If I could keep the 5.1 surround on some recordings things would be perfect.

If HD DVD and BD groups have influence over Ulead, this would make perfect sense. Imagine the enormous implication this process would have for HDDVD or BD. If people can record movies in HD version from their TV program and then use Ulead to burn 20 copies for their friends I am sure Ulead would be concerned about being sued for being the enabler in this process. What everybody is doing here with Ulead may or may not be legal but is surely something HDDVD, BD and Hollywood studio have nightmares of seeing.


This begs the obvious question: how can ULead (and if the rumors are true Nero as well) legally get away with offering HD DVD and BD authoring in the first place? I was astonished when I first stumbled onto this thread because I never in a million years thought that these new HD disk technologies would somehow enable us to make custom HD disks from prerecorded HD content (especially after the DVD DeCSS fiasco). I would think organizations like HBO/Time Warner would be quite upset over the knowledge that some of us might in the future be making pristine looking custom HD DVDs of The Sopranos etc and cutting into their future sales of HD box sets!

This begs the obvious question: how can ULead (and if the rumors are true Nero as well) legally get away with offering HD DVD and BD authoring in the first place? I was astonished when I first stumbled onto this thread because I never in a million years thought that these new HD disk technologies would somehow enable us to make custom HD disks from prerecorded HD content (especially after the DVD DeCSS fiasco). I would think organizations like HBO/Time Warner would be quite upset over the knowledge that some of us might in the future be making pristine looking custom HD DVDs of The Sopranos etc and cutting into their future sales of HD box sets!

Of course the movie studios will be upset and they may be pressuring authoring companies. That doesn't mean companies like Ulead or Nero are doing anything illegal or wrong. Your question seems to assume that the movie studios developed the technology or have to right to dictate how it is used. They might want us to think they should be allowed to do that, but that isn't the way it should work.

Let me give you an example. I was very excited to hear about this technology and one of the first things I did was to notify people at the school where I used to teach that there was now a technique available that would allow students to shoot, edit and deliver their work on a standard format - HD DVD. Students have as much right to this technology as movie studios. Inexpensive authoring tools like this should be readily available. There simply is no reason other than Hollywood paranoia to restrict their use.

DVD authoring has been around for a long time now. Why shouldn't average people have access to HD DVD authoring? If Hollywood delivers reasonably priced HD media for consumers, this technology isn't going to hurt them. I keep having to remind people that Hollywood thought TV would destroy the movies. Didn't happen. Hollywood thought the VCR would destroy the movies. Didn't happen. Quite the opposite. Hollywood thought DeCSS would destroy the movies and wreck their DVD business. Didn't happen.

DVD authoring has been around for a long time now. Why shouldn't average people have access to HD DVD authoring? If Hollywood delivers reasonably priced HD media for consumers, this technology isn't going to hurt them. I keep having to remind people that Hollywood thought TV would destroy the movies. Didn't happen. Hollywood thought the VCR would destroy the movies. Didn't happen. Quite the opposite. Hollywood thought DeCSS would destroy the movies and wreck their DVD business. Didn't happen.


Oh don't get me wrong Joe I totally agree with everything you say above...I think Hollywood as a group are generally greedy and shortsighted (and paranoid) bastards...having said that however I DO think they are entitled to protect their intellectual property and it seems to me that HD DVD and BD authoring software capabilities represent a serious threat to their business models (i.e. HD authoring certainly has reasonable applications such as making custom HD disks from your Sony HC-1 footage, but the mere fact that it also enables copyright infringement is a very thorny legal question). I wonder if it could be argued that HD authoring capabilities violate the DMCA in some way?

SUCCESS!!! I ripped a 1minute 15 second clip of The Matrix recorded off of HBO onto DVHS tape. I used DVHS tool to rip the .ts file to the hard drive. I loaded HDTV2MPEG and converted to a program stream. I loaded Ulead and imported the MPEG file, I UNCHECKED "Do not convert complaint MPEG files, I changed MPEG settings to 1920x1080 and Dolby Digital Audio/256kb. This was the ONLY combination that provided stutter free video and audio that was synced to the video. I'm going to try something bigger tomorrow.....

Man, I am loving this player!

SUCCESS!!! I ripped a 1minute 15 second clip of The Matrix recorded off of HBO onto DVHS tape. I used DVHS tool to rip the .ts file to the hard drive. I loaded HDTV2MPEG and converted to a program stream. I loaded Ulead and imported the MPEG file, I UNCHECKED "Do not convert complaint MPEG files, I changed MPEG settings to 1920x1080 and Dolby Digital Audio/256kb. This was the ONLY combination that provided stutter free video and audio that was synced to the video. I'm going to try something bigger tomorrow.....

Man, I am loving this player!


Hmmm I've never tried using the combo "uncheck do not convert compliant files along with HDTVtoMPEG" method you describe...I'll try it tonight. Thanks for the tip! :)

SUCCESS!!! I ripped a 1minute 15 second clip of The Matrix recorded off of HBO onto DVHS tape. I used DVHS tool to rip the .ts file to the hard drive. Man, I am loving this player!
The more I use this player the better I like it. The patch solved all major problems. Did you have to do anything special to get DVHSTool to work? I'm having a problem with it. It used to work great when I had Service Pack 1, but when I upgraded my computer I installed Service Pack 2 and I cannot seem to copy from my D-VHS player to my computer.

The more I use this player the better I like it. The patch solved all major problems. Did you have to do anything special to get DVHSTool to work? I'm having a problem with it. It used to work great when I had Service Pack 1, but when I upgraded my computer I installed Service Pack 2 and I cannot seem to copy from my D-VHS player to my computer.

Sounds like you lost your D-VHS XP driver. You can find the directions on how to restore it here. (http://www.webtc.com/DVHS/default.htm)

You don't need to download any files. Everything you have is already on your system, if you were doing it before.

Thanks, Joe. I'll see if I can get it working again this afternoon.

Edit:That did the trick, thanks!

For those wanting the INHD HD Tune-up, I found the files on usenet and converted it into an Mpeg file (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=HK8TPYJG) . I have not been able to brun a hddvd version of it so if someone does maybe they'll send me a copy.

I asked the Ulead marketing guy who hangs out on an Yahoo list about the disappearance and it appears they did pull it after some pressure from the HD-DVD group. However they will shortly be releasing an HD burning pack for MF5 which will restore the feature and provide both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray disk creation.

I asked the Ulead marketing guy who hangs out on an Yahoo list about the disappearance and it appears they did pull it after some pressure from the HD-DVD group. However they will shortly be releasing an HD burning pack for MF5 which will restore the feature and provide both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray disk creation.

Could you ask him if it will have any features disabled because of the pressure?

On another topic, I was browsing the Ulead MF5 user group site and found a question about the 4 GB limit in MF5. It could be that I'm having so much trouble with some files because MF5 doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. I thought I had built disks past that limit, but maybe I'm wrong.

Could you ask him if it will have any features disabled because of the pressure?

On another topic, I was browsing the Ulead MF5 user group site and found a question about the 4 GB limit in MF5. It could be that I'm having so much trouble with some files because MF5 doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. I thought I had built disks past that limit, but maybe I'm wrong.

Definitely no 4 gig limit. I've created HD-DVDs as large as a dual layered DVD +R will allow. The file can be something like 8.2gig before the authoring process begins.

Marc.

Definitely no 4 gig limit. I've created HD-DVDs as large as a dual layered DVD +R will allow. The file can be something like 8.2gig before the authoring process begins.

Marc.

So, I suppose that means the real difference is the version of the software. Those of us unfortunate enough to have the later version of the software are stuck with the limitations. I have very little luck with long movie files. Almost all of them fail. And, files that I edit with H2M or VideoRedo almost all fail, too. I have had a few exceptions with H2M but almost no MPEG file from VideoRedo has worked for me.

Definitely no 4 gig limit. I've created HD-DVDs as large as a dual layered DVD +R will allow. The file can be something like 8.2gig before the authoring process begins.

Marc.

I using 5.0.189.0 verson DMF5. When I create a small, say 1 gig file it works fine. When I create a 4 gig filee DMF5 always crashes when it begins to chew on the video file. Very consistent, I'm trying to burn to an HD-DVD folder as per the procedure but it always crashes with the 4 gig file. Looks like I won't be buying DMF5.

I using 5.0.189.0 verson DMF5. When I create a small, say 1 gig file it works fine. When I create a 4 gig filee DMF5 always crashes when it begins to chew on the video file. Very consistent, I'm trying to burn to an HD-DVD folder as per the procedure but it always crashes with the 4 gig file. Looks like I won't be buying DMF5.

DMF5 doesn't have a problem with large files. It is possible that your PC is having a problem, however. Make sure you have lots of free space on your system drive. I've had it crap out on me when I had 'only' 15 GB free space. Now I keep 30 GB free and don't have problems.

If that doesn't do the trick then there is something it doesn't like in the file. A bad edit? A signal drop out? Something like that. I believe DMF5 creates scratch files as it creates the evo files. These are basically copies of your input file sliced into 1 GB chuncks, if you can find them, they may tell you where it DMF5 died.

DMf5 is really, really picky. It seems to also be the only game in town at this time. It does work, but it requires effort.

I've made progress with the problem I've been having of periodic video skipping in the HD-DVDs I create.

If I use Womble MPEG Video Wizard to convert a transport stream created by Media Studio Pro into a program stream then use Video Studio 10+ to create HD-DVD files, I get a perfect HD-DVD. There is no skipping.

If I create the program stream directly from Media Studio Pro, or use MSP to to convert a transport stream to a program stream, I get skipping in the resulting DVD.

When I use VideoLan to view the EVO files directly from hard disk before burning to DVD, the skipping is present in the bad ones. If I turn messages on in VideoLan, every time there is a skip, I see the message "dts!=current_pts." There are no error messages when I view the good EVO files. When I view either kind of input file with VideoLan, the ones from Womble that generate good HD-DVDs or the ones from MSP that generate the bad HD-DVDs, there is no skipping and there are no error messages.

Both input files are created with exactly the same settings. They are HDV video from the Sony HD camcorder. They are 1440x1080, CBR 25000, upper field first, mpeg 2 audio at 384kbps.

I'm very pleased that I have found a work-around so that I can generate perfect HD-DVDs. I'm puzzled why running the input video through Womble before feeding it to VS10+ would fix the problem. I'm hoping that Ulead eventually releases a fix either to MSP or VS10+ that fixes the problem. When I was trying to find a solution, I posted a question on the Ulead VS forum, but most of the responses I got were trolling from people insisting that this wasn't possible and I had fallen victim to an urban legend. http://phpbb.ulead.com.tw/EN/viewtopic.php?t=14328 That leaves me wondering how much effort (if any) will go into fixing this.

Joe

Why so much workaround with Ulead if you are dealing with Mpeg files directly from Sony HDV. Maybe there is a difference between VS10 and MF5. With MF5 those HDV files from Sony just fly thru if you don't create menu. They either work perfectly or they dont at all depending on some luck.

I think Hyrax raise an interesting question about the hard drive size. I do find that if I delete the some small evo files in the HV_DVD folder sometimes I can correct the problem and get the disk to play perfectly.

But on the other hand it didn't seem to make any sense that creating a flawless 0.8 GB HV_DVD folder (with Menu and multiple chapters inside) would require a 30 GB hard drive space.

Rather than debating about which version and which process work, why don't we design a small (less than 0.5GB) benchmark test so everybody can perform the exact same task and see if it is successful.

Here is what I have in mind: download two small HD clips say "coral reef" and " magic of flight" 1080i version from MS website:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/musicandvideo/hdvideo/contentshowcase.aspx
and burn a HDDVD disk with MENU and play it on HD-A1/X1.
Tell us if you are successful and which version and process you use.

I think that will really help us compare apple to apple and nail down the problems.

The test failed on my player and I used MF5 version 5.0.189.0, no other software was involved.

I create HD video for a living and am very intrigued by this thread. I fear I'm a bit too late to the party!

I have a 720p/59.94fps program stream that's variable bitrate 30000mbps, stereo sound etc. It's about one minute, 14 seconds and 250mb-ish in size. I encoded the file using Canopus Procoder 2 and can re-encode it if that's an issue.

I originally encoded it in this fashion as I believe Blu-Ray can handle this sort of bandwidth - can HD-DVD do it too? I should say that even with this extreme bitrate I am seeing artefacting (!) which says something about how extreme my footage is (Xbox 360 game trailer which appeared on the Live Marketplace).

Would any of you guys who are having consistent success with HD-DVD authoring care to give my video a go?

With regards the dummy VIDEO_TS folder you guys are using, has any one tried to put a normal DVD Video title set in it? Does it run on a normal DVD player? So could we conceivably have the same footage mirrored in SD and HD? And how about WMV-HD run from a DVD-ROM partition too? Could we actually have a triple-playback disk with this format?

Also, although there are obviously issues with finding a Blu-Ray player right now, has any one fiddled about with the Blu-Ray module in the initial version of the Ulead software?

Why so much workaround with Ulead if you are dealing with Mpeg files directly from Sony HDV.

Actually, what I am trying to burn to HD-DVD is the edited video from a trip. I have added music and titles, kept just the best parts, adjusted brightness and contrast. So I need to make that edited video into a format the VS+ likes.

I did try burning The Magic of Flight. The download I have is 23.976 fps 1440x1080p. I used VS10+. I was able to create the HD-DVD folders and burn them to DVD with 1 Step DVD Copy. The video is quite jerky, which I expect is a result of converting 23.976 fps to 29.97 fps.

Following this thread, it seems like people are having three different problems. I suspect the causes and cures may be different for the different problems. It might be helpful as we share ideas to be specific about which problem we are discussing. Here are the problems as I understand them:

1) Video won't encode at all. I haven't had this problem, so I don't know much about it. Some of the posts about insufficient hard drive space would seem to go along with this symptom.

2) Constant jerky video - several times per second. That is what I saw in the case of The Magic of Flight. In this case, I believe it was the difference in frame rates. Others have mentioned they are having field order problems.

3) Occasional skips in scenes with lots big changes from one frame to the next. This is the one that has been causing me trouble. I have fixed this by running my video through Womble.

Grandmaster, the current Ulead products only support 1920x1080 and 1440x1080. You would need convert your 720p video to one of those formats. I haven't tried it, but I do expect that if you added a valid VIDEO_TS folder, you would end up with a disks that plays HD on the HD-DVD player and SD on a regular dVD player.

Joe

With regards the dummy VIDEO_TS folder you guys are using, has any one tried to put a normal DVD Video title set in it? Does it run on a normal DVD player? So could we conceivably have the same footage mirrored in SD and HD? And how about WMV-HD run from a DVD-ROM partition too? Could we actually have a triple-playback disk with this format?
I don't know about your other questions, but I believe that MF5 only deals with MPEG files, so WMV_HD is not currently an option. Once they release their HD Pack (who knows when that will be), it may support other options.

I had so much trouble with MF5 that I'm waiting for an update before I buy, so I cannot give you video a try. You could download their trial version and give it a shot. Then go over to Best Buy or whereever and see what happens.

No, you don't understand... I mean:

1. VIDEO_TS folder plays on normal DVD player
2. HD-DVD folder plays on HD-DVD player
3. WMV content in DVD-ROM portion autoruns when inserted into a PC drive

With regards Ulead only supporting the two 1080 line formats, how come people are saying they've had success running 720p material?

No, you don't understand... I mean:

1. VIDEO_TS folder plays on normal DVD player
2. HD-DVD folder plays on HD-DVD player
3. WMV content in DVD-ROM portion autoruns when inserted into a PC drive

With regards Ulead only supporting the two 1080 line formats, how come people are saying they've had success running 720p material?

Yup, that's what I said. If a DVD has a HD-DVD folders and standard DVD folders, the HD-DVD player will play it as an HD-DVD. A standard DVD player will play the contents of the VIDEO_TS folder as a standard DVD.

The VS10+ and MF5 will only write 1440x1080 and 1920x1080. I believe they will accept 720 p as input and convert it to one of the other formats. I'm not sure how good the conversion is, which is why I thought you might want to convert it yourself.

Joe

I could convert to 1080i, certainly. I do the conversion myself using a simple AviSynth script. An up-conversion to 1920x1080 would introduce 20% more 'artificial' resolution though, so while I am not usually keen on any kind of anamorphic pixel stretching, for the sake of less artefacting, I may well opt for 1440x1080. The only issue then would be one of getting the field order right (although I think my editing environment could do this for me instead of AviSynth come to think of it).

Unfortunately I'm currently in Israel so no HD-DVD players here (although we do have Best Buy funnily enough!). Perhaps if I authored a 'triple format' disk on Ulead trial edition, that mirrors my Xbox Live Marketplace content in SD, HD-DVD, and WMV for PC, one of you guys could download the 500mb-ish image and give it a whirl?

I'm very excited by the work you guys have done :)

I'd like to help, grandmaster. Maybe I can now. I don't know exactly what happened, but I'm getting pretty consistent results with movies, even those edited with HDTVtoMPEG2. Most movies now seem to work. I will try to figure what happened and report back, but right now I'm simply enjoying the success.

I was able to get a successful burn to HD DVD (double layer DVD+R) of Robots, the animated film, and a two parter of Star Wars III Revenge of the Sith (double layer and single layer DVD+R). That's the movie recorded from HBO this past week.

There's a report of a color space error with the Toshiba A1. It does not handle color space properly for HD through DVI. Anyone using a Lumagen external video processor can download a firmware update that fixes the error. It can be applied to indivdual Lumagen inputs. Lumagen owners can download the update from their web site.

OK, I have the Ulead software and initial tests are positive.

While it definitely doesn't like my 720p/60 MPEG2, and it re-encodes it terribly, it is very tolerant indeed of my own Procoder 2-generated 30mbps 1080i file, and only wants to re-encode the audio. Presumably to turn it from MPEG2 into PCM. I was worried that since the bandwidth exceeds its own limit by a massive margin it would throw a hissy fit. Not so.

I'm also relatively surprised by the simplicity of the IFO and EVO structure. Renaming EVO to MPG allows the file to be opened by VirtualDub Mod. My guess is that with limited reverse-engineering we could probably get Ulead to author a disk and then replace any files it creates with non-standard files. Who knows - my 720p/60 MPEG might yet be playable.

and only wants to re-encode the audio. Presumably to turn it from MPEG2 into PCM.

I could also help if you would like.

Have you tried going into settings on the HD-DVD burning screen, selecting audio, and changing it to MPEG and matching your bit rate? I'm not sure how these settings work when you have the option not to encode compliant files checked, but it might be worth a shot.

Joe

I have a trial version and it seems like the disc burning option have been disabled. Is this right?

There's a report of a color space error with the Toshiba A1... Anyone using a Lumagen external video processor can download a firmware update that fixes the error. It can be applied to indivdual Lumagen inputs.
I'm in the market for a video processor, so this is interesting. Does the Lumagen allow you to just do a color space conversion and then pass through a 1080i image?
Sorry to go off topic.

I'm also relatively surprised by the simplicity of the IFO and EVO structure. Renaming EVO to MPG allows the file to be opened by VirtualDub Mod. My guess is that with limited reverse-engineering we could probably get Ulead to author a disk and then replace any files it creates with non-standard files. Who knows - my 720p/60 MPEG might yet be playable.

I've been thinking along the same lines, but don't have an idea where to start. An EVO is apparently a high definition VOB file. The question becomes, what is in an IFO file?

I have a trial version and it seems like the disc burning option have been disabled. Is this right?

Yes. The full version is the same way. You need to use the option to write files to your hard disk, add a VIDEO_TS folder with a dummy VIDEO_TS.VOB file, then use a different program to burn the folders to DVD. A lot of people are using Nero. I've been using 1 Click DVD Copy. There are full step by step instructions on page 7 of this thread. The step that I have needed to add to those procedures is to run the HDV video through Womble before importing it into Ulead. Otherwise I get periodic jerking in scenes with a lot of change between frames.

Joe

I've had success with creating HD DVDs with VS 10+ that are encoded at 1280x1080i. VS 10+ does not re-encode the material to 1440 or 1920 and it plays beautifully on the A1. I have not created a 720p re-encoded to 1080i disc that didn't stutter lose sync etc. Ulead's 720p re-encode is TERRIBLE!!!

I've been thinking along the same lines, but don't have an idea where to start. An EVO is apparently a high definition VOB file. The question becomes, what is in an IFO file?

IFO files, on DVD at least, are typically navigational pointers for the menu system, and also include a series of flags (eg, 4:3 or 16:9).

I've had success with creating HD DVDs with VS 10+ that are encoded at 1280x1080i. VS 10+ does not re-encode the material to 1440 or 1920 and it plays beautifully on the A1. I have not created a 720p re-encoded to 1080i disc that didn't stutter lose sync etc. Ulead's 720p re-encode is TERRIBLE!!!

Ulead's hilarious 720p/60 to 1080i re-encode looks like it strips out half the frames and upscales them to 1920x1080 then encodes at a horrendous low CBR bitrate. I was almost weeping at what it did to my hard work.

For my project I have rescaled the video myself using AviSynth and encoded into a mega bitrate MPEG2 program stream with Canopus Procoder 2. Even my 2.0GHz Merom-powered laptop with PureVideo is having slowdown issues running this clip, so I'll be most intrigued to see what the Toshiba HD player does with it.

I'm in the market for a video processor, so this is interesting. Does the Lumagen allow you to just do a color space conversion and then pass through a 1080i image?
Sorry to go off topic.

I don't know this answer. I know once before that I was able to manipulate color with the Lumagen and still pass through a 720p signal without additional scaling, but I'm not sure how it's going to handle 1080i. I also haven't applied the update yet. The people at Lumagen are very good about supporting their products.

I was able to get a successful burn to HD DVD (double layer DVD+R) of Robots, the animated film, and a two parter of Star Wars III Revenge of the Sith (double layer and single layer DVD+R). That's the movie recorded from HBO this past week.



Joe: Isn't your Star Wars ROTS capture from a R5000 modded DISH box (and presumably a 1920x1080i file that VS10+ likes, unlike my pitiful HDLite 1280x1088i file from D* that VS10+ hates?)

Joseph, Joe - thanks for your offers on testing my own HD-DVD authoring.

You have PMs! :D

IFO files, on DVD at least, are typically navigational pointers for the menu system, and also include a series of flags (eg, 4:3 or 16:9).

Do you have any more details? Also, would this be considered trade secrets? If you think it might be, could you point me to a few references? Don't want to break the forum rules.

Joseph, Joe - thanks for your offers on testing my own HD-DVD authoring.

You have PMs! :D

I've PMed you. I can't get the link to work. I'm glad we have someone here on this thread who has more MPEG expertise than I do. I look forward to seeing your video. I have an Athlon 64 x2 and can get even MPEG4 (H.264) video to play smoothly with the CoreAVC plug-in (with a Matrox Parhlelia PCIe video card).

My copy of Star Wars III is REALLY good. That broadcast generated hundreds of posts here on AVS. I hope HBO broadcasts more such films in OAR. Even with a low bitrate, the quality is exceptional.

I very much doubt it's a case of trade secrets at all! A search of forum.doom9.org might help but really and truly you need an intimate knowledge of reverse engineering DVD to know what to do. Right now, I have no idea.

@Joe: it's still uploading - 1hr 5mins remaining.

STEP 8-
Open up Nero 6.6 and select Nero Burning Rom. Select DVD-Video from left menu.
Next, click the "NEW" box.

STEP 9-
The left half of the next screen is your new DVD, the right half is you files. Find the HDDVD_TS folder you created in step 7 from the right side and drag it over to the left (Your new HD DVD). Notice that the option to burn the DVD is ghosted, preventing you from creating the new HD DVD...no problem, lets go to step 10.

STEP 10-
Go to your desktop and create a new text file. To do this right click on the desktop and select NEW. Then select TEXT DOCUMENT. Now right click this file and select "rename". Rename the file "VIDEO_TS.VOB" and drag it into to Nero screen. You need to drop it into the folder "VIDEO_TS" (it has the red folder icon).

Now notice what just happened....the "BURN THE CURRENT COMPILATION" icon has become un-ghosted. MIRACLE! WOW!

STEP 11-
Burn the damn DVD

STEP 12-
Put the DVD in the Toshiba HDA1 HD-DVD Player

STEP 13-
WOW...it works!


Would this work for Nero Express?

For those of you able to create ISO files from within Ulead, are you actually able to burn them and read the directory structure on a PC? I'm burning them in Alcohol 120% and I'm just making coasters :(

For those of you able to create ISO files from within Ulead, are you actually able to burn them and read the directory structure on a PC? I'm burning them in Alcohol 120% and I'm just making coasters :(

I downloaded and burned your ISO file. It fired up without issue on a regular DVD player and in the Toshiba A1. The Toshiba didn't have any trouble playing the video or audio. The SD DVD version looks like it's letterboxed. I had to zoom it out to fill the screen.

Looks like a typical Sunday drive in Boston. Where's all the action? :D

I guess the only question remaining is whether you can produce a triple purpose disc with DVD ROM content.

I can't burn the ISO files within my version of Movie Factory 5, but others are doing it routinely, usually using Nero or DVD Decryptor to burn the ISO file out to DVD.

Joe,

I have another report via PM from Joe Linn of the video skipping during HD playback and he said he had the same thing before running videos through Womble. Does it run as smoothly as the standard def version for you?

I have no idea what Womble is supposed to do, but any kind of further processing will likely degrade picture quality so I'd rather tweak the original encoding profile.

I would foresee no problem adding DVD-ROM content.

With regards the standard DVD version, I did do that in a rush, so maybe I forgot to set the anamorphic flag on :D

Thanks for your testing.

Any other Toshiba users are welcome to try my HD-DVD file and report back:

www.digitalfoundry.org/hd-dvd.rar (size 320mb)

Download, unRAR with WinRAR, burn with Alcohol 120% or DVD Decrypter. For reference, you can watch the same video in standard def on any DVD player.

Would be very interested if someone with the RCA player can test it.

Non-HD-DVD owners - don't bother to download, this file will do nothing for you and just kill my bandwidth for no reason.

Joe,

I have another report via PM from Joe Linn of the video skipping during HD playback and he said he had the same thing before running videos through Womble. Does it run as smoothly as the standard def version for you?

I have no idea what Womble is supposed to do, but any kind of further processing will likely degrade picture quality so I'd rather tweak the original encoding profile.

I would foresee no problem adding DVD-ROM content.

With regards the standard DVD version, I did do that in a rush, so maybe I forgot to set the anamorphic flag on :D

Thanks for your testing.

Grandmaster,

I don't believe the video skipped, but since it's computer generated graphics, it's possible. I didn't notice any audio interruptions. There were spots where the action seemed to go into a slow-mo mode, but I thought that was deliberate. The audio never slowed at all - very smooth. And the slow-mo worked in the sections where I saw it. Ask Joe where he had difficulties.

My simple test is always this - if Movie Factory 5 accepts the video quickly when I open the file, and if it proceeds quickly to copying files to the HD DVD folder at the final stage, I don't have issues. If the file loads in slowly and it has to convert during the stage at which it creates the HD DVD folder, it never works well. I always use Womble to convert from transport stream to program stream. I had too many issues with VidoeRedo and HDTVtoMPEG2. (Now that I'm having such success with movies, though, I'll probably revisit all that.)

As to what Womble does, I'm not sure. When it works it seems to do nothing to the video. When I create an HD DVD from a .ts file, my successes seem almost like straight copies of the file, with a simple reformatting from MPEG program stream to EVO. The resulting video plays on the Toshiba A1 with the same smoothness that it plays from the MyHD card in the computer.

Honestly, if I could get my R5000 and MyHD captures to play smoothly as .ts files from the computer's DVD drive, this process wouldn't be as attractive for me personally. It's less work just to do a few simple edits and save the videos to DVD as .ts data files. Unfortunately, I can't get the DVDs to play back smoothly, consistently doing it that way. Also, having these movies as HD DVD ensures I'm a little more likely to be able to play them into the future (that is, if HD DVD survives - not a sure bet). I'm also backing them up as regular .ts files, in case I need the original files down the line.

Again, I didn't have any trouble playing the file. The HD DVD looked very much like the SD DVD, in terms of how it moved. I didn't notice any discrepancies in movement between the two. I used DVD Decryptor to burn the ISO. Ordinarily, I use Nero when burning my HD DVDs, since I don't have the ISO or Blu-ray options in my version of the software. I suspect I'll get the same results burning the ISO with Nero, but I'll do that if you'd like.

By the way, I enjoyed your video. It reminded me, though, that I had talks with Electronic Arts about a game I worked on years ago. I still remember getting a phone call from them at home about a game concept I was working on with a friend. Unfortunately, we didn't have the resources to finish it and the basic concept later showed up in other games from other companies we sent the project to. We learned a valuable lesson about dealing with gaming companies. (Not Electronic Arts - they were genuinely interested. We just couldn't deliver it to them when we needed to and lost a window of opportunity.)

If I can help in any other way, let me know.

That's great Joe, thanks. The only slight 'snag' during the authoring process was the conversion of the audio from MPEG2 to LPCM, presumably. This took seconds. Video was left untouched.

The only 'slowdown' (ie when it drops down from 60fps) will be in the last montage of crashes and explosions and even then it will be slight (and will be identically slower on the SD version).

It was certainly an interesting experience for me, since I've never done 720p/60 to 1080i/30 conversion before, although I did already have the 720p/60 to 480i/30 sorted out already.

It's also good to see the Toshiba having its throughput tested - 30mbps is towards the top-end of HD-DVD's theoretical maximum bandwidth.

I have the initial version of the Ulead software with the Blu-Ray module, so now I think I'll try a Blu-Ray version. It would be very amusing if both BR and HD-DVD titlesets could co-exist on the same disk :D

That's great Joe, thanks. The only slight 'snag' during the authoring process was the conversion of the audio from MPEG2 to LPCM, presumably. This took seconds. Video was left untouched.

The only 'slowdown' (ie when it drops down from 60fps) will be in the last montage of crashes and explosions and even then it will be slight (and will be identically slower on the SD version).

It was certainly an interesting experience for me, since I've never done 720p/60 to 1080i/30 conversion before, although I did already have the 720p/60 to 480i/30 sorted out already.

It's also good to see the Toshiba having its throughput tested - 30mbps is towards the top-end of HD-DVD's theoretical maximum bandwidth.

I have the initial version of the Ulead software with the Blu-Ray module, so now I think I'll try a Blu-Ray version. It would be very amusing if both BR and HD-DVD titlesets could co-exist on the same disk :D

I was pleased to see that the Toshiba was able to play the file, too, with such a high bitrate. The one thing that still frustrates me is why .ts files don't play back smoothly with any computer DVD drive that I have, no matter if the disc is bitset to DVD-ROM or not. It seems to me that if the Toshiba's red laser can read the data from the DVD+R recordable disc I used to burn your test clip, a computer's DVD drive should be able to manage the much lower bitrate of movies and programs recorded from E*'s satcasts.

It looks pretty good. I just played it on my A1.

No glitches or slowdowns compared to playing it in a standard DVD player?

Pardon me if this has been asked already; tried searching the thread but couldn't get any solid hits.

So far everyone's been talking about encoding MPEG2 - but HD DVD supports VC-1 and MPEG4AVC as well.

Sooo.... any ideas on how I could author a disc that works in the Toshiba, and has video encoded as VC-1 or MPEG4AVC?

HD-DVD supports those codecs, but the rudimentary authoring tools we have right now do not.

Some work is being done elsewhere on analysing the HD-DVD structure, but the best thing we can hope for is to wait for Nero (who are heavily invested in AVC) to support it.

Hmmmmmm ISOs generated by the Ulead appear to be in a weird format.

Two files are generated:

bluray.iso
bluray.iso.adp

The bluray.iso file is corrupt - doesn't open with any ISO programs, won't mount with Daemon tools. Any idea a) how to burn it, or b) how to transcode it into a normal image?

I installed the Movie Factory 5 and was a bit dismayed to find that after an hour of tinkering, the software wouldn't offer me the option of creating a Disc Image. I know some folks on this thread have used that option, so I took a closer look at the software.

It appears there are different versions of the software - and I'm not talking about version numbers. This software is also available as an OEM version which can have some features disabled - disc image creation being one of them.

But I think I found a fix. This might not apply to all of you, naturally, and you will have to first uninstall the application from your HDD.

You need to be able to edit a textfile which is only found *before* the installation procedure. If you have the application installation files as a zip/rar file, you need to extract the files first into a directory. You're looking for a file called info.ini. The file contains information about what features to install.

In my info.ini, I found this bit:

[DMFSetting]
CreateDI=0

DI is obviously short for Disc Image, zero meaning that this feature will be disabled. Just change the zero to one, like this:

[DMFSetting]
CreateDI=1

and save the info.ini. Then install the application by running setup.exe. Worked for me!

I was burning my first homemade HD DVD while typing my previous post. Used a clip from Star Wars ROTS and am happy to report that the results are just fantastic! My HD-XA1 plays the disc without hiccups and the image quality is... well, quite nice. This possibility of authoring HD DVD on DVD-R media came as a total surprise to me, and as a very welcome one. Now then, how do we inject 5.1 channel Dolby Digital tracks onto these discs?

edit: Ah, Videostudio 10+...

I was pleased to see that the Toshiba was able to play the file, too, with such a high bitrate. The one thing that still frustrates me is why .ts files don't play back smoothly with any computer DVD drive that I have, no matter if the disc is bitset to DVD-ROM or not. It seems to me that if the Toshiba's red laser can read the data from the DVD+R recordable disc I used to burn your test clip, a computer's DVD drive should be able to manage the much lower bitrate of movies and programs recorded from E*'s satcasts.

I had the same problems with .ts files I wanted to archive on DVD-R awhile ago. My Lite-On drive on my desktop was fast enough but the Pioneer in my HTPC wasn't. No amount of fiddling with drive speed utilities would help. Some drives spin down for DVD-ROM to read video more reliably I think so I don't think that is the answer. I tried several drives and my Lite-On was the only one that worked.

I ended up just buying more hard drive space.

Hmmmmmm ISOs generated by the Ulead appear to be in a weird format.

Two files are generated:

bluray.iso
bluray.iso.adp

The bluray.iso file is corrupt - doesn't open with any ISO programs, won't mount with Daemon tools. Any idea a) how to burn it, or b) how to transcode it into a normal image?

burn just great with DVD Decrypter beleive it or not..

Pardon me if this has been asked already; tried searching the thread but couldn't get any solid hits.

So far everyone's been talking about encoding MPEG2 - but HD DVD supports VC-1 and MPEG4AVC as well.

Sooo.... any ideas on how I could author a disc that works in the Toshiba, and has video encoded as VC-1 or MPEG4AVC?

I can't speak for everyone, but I think part of the reason we're still using MPEG2 is that a lot of the source (OTA, cable, satellite) is MPEG2, and by pushing the right buttons we can manage to get it onto disc without any re-encoding and loss of (in some cases, already dubious) quality.

If your source is MPEG2 also, it would be almost pointless re-encoding as VC1 or AVC... you're not going to gain any extra detail for sure ;)

Otherwise, it's still open season at this point. I don't have DVD Studio Pro, but a couple of other members that do have been making attempts at very least...

subbedout, my source is VC-1 and/or MPEG4AVC. Which is why I asked. :)

So 720p with Ulead is a no go for everyone at this point? I tried putting a couple of minutes of 720p on disc (converting to 1440i) and had the same stuttering issues I read about here.

I couldn't quite decypher all the jargon... are people using AviSynth to convert to 1080i and then using Ulead? Is VideoStudio more flexible? Can it make HD DVD with native 720p or does it do a better job converting it? I have a lot of 720p recordings I'd like to burn on discs but it would be nice to not have to convert them at all. Doesn't HD DVD support 720/60p on the disc and are there any authoring programs that will do it?

subbedout, my source is VC-1 and/or MPEG4AVC. Which is why I asked. :)
Movie Factory 5 only seems to support MPEG files.

If your source is MPEG2 also, it would be almost pointless re-encoding as VC1 or AVC... you're not going to gain any extra detail for sure ;)


The benefit would be essentially the same detail in a lot less space. You can easily fit 2 hours of HD material on a single layer if you use h.264...

So 720p with Ulead is a no go for everyone at this point? I tried putting a couple of minutes of 720p on disc (converting to 1440i) and had the same stuttering issues I read about here.

I couldn't quite decypher all the jargon... are people using AviSynth to convert to 1080i and then using Ulead? Is VideoStudio more flexible? Can it make HD DVD with native 720p or does it do a better job converting it? I have a lot of 720p recordings I'd like to burn on discs but it would be nice to not have to convert them at all. Doesn't HD DVD support 720/60p on the disc and are there any authoring programs that will do it?

HD-DVD does support 720p/60 - it's just that the authoring programs at the moment don't. Or maybe 720p/60 is limited to VC1/AVC? I will look at VideoStudio as it does appear to be more flexible, but I am not hopeful.

I am using AviSynth to convert my 720p material and the result is very attractive, but obviously I would prefer to stick to unconverted material - MPEG2 encoders handle progressive scan material better, and the frames are obviously smaller, which again is good for compression.

I had the same problems with .ts files I wanted to archive on DVD-R awhile ago. My Lite-On drive on my desktop was fast enough but the Pioneer in my HTPC wasn't. No amount of fiddling with drive speed utilities would help. Some drives spin down for DVD-ROM to read video more reliably I think so I don't think that is the answer. I tried several drives and my Lite-On was the only one that worked.

I ended up just buying more hard drive space.

I did, too, but hard drives are unreliable for long term storage. This solution allows me to have the programming on a stable optical medium that I can play anytime. I still keep a lot of material on hard drives. I also back all the "keepers" up to optical media.

I have successfully transcoded 720p to 1080i. The transoding sucks though and the image is very noticibly degraded from the source recording.

burn just great with DVD Decrypter beleive it or not..

Just tried that and it simply didn't work. ISOs generated by Ulead version 5 (the one with Blu-Ray authoring) produce coasters and won't mount with Daemon tools. I get the same results whether burning Blu-Ray ISOs or HD-DVD ones :confused:

I have successfully transcoded 720p to 1080i. The transoding sucks though and the image is very noticibly degraded from the source recording.

Use AviSynth to do it and the results are excellent.

The benefit would be essentially the same detail in a lot less space. You can easily fit 2 hours of HD material on a single layer if you use h.264...
That also crossed my mind. I guess we'll have to wait for some more advanced authoring applications.

Just tried that and it simply didn't work. ISOs generated by Ulead version 5 (the one with Blu-Ray authoring) produce coasters and won't mount with Daemon tools. I get the same results whether burning Blu-Ray ISOs or HD-DVD ones :confused:
If you have the chance, give Ulead Videostudio 10 Plus a shot.

You need to be able to edit a textfile which is only found *before* the installation procedure. If you have the application installation files as a zip/rar file, you need to extract the files first into a directory. You're looking for a file called info.ini. The file contains information about what features to install.
FYI: this applies to Ulead Videostudio 10 Plus as well.

pteittinen: if DVD decrypter is burning your ISOs OK, do they read in your PC drive as well as your Toshiba? Or do they just work fine in your Toshiba?

I'll give Videostudio10 a try, but am not sure it will help with the Blu-Ray ISO situation. Does it burn MF5 ISOs by any chance?

pteittinen: if DVD decrypter is burning your ISOs OK, do they read in your PC drive as well as your Toshiba? Or do they just work fine in your Toshiba?

It was ryoohki who suggested DVD Decrypter, not me. I use ImgBurn (same burning engine as DVD Decrypter) for all my image needs. It worked fine with the HD DVD .iso I created with VS10+. I can read the disc contents (directory structure and files are visible) on a PC, but can't play the content, because I don't have any PC player software that supports HD DVD.

I'll give Videostudio10 a try, but am not sure it will help with the Blu-Ray ISO situation. Does it burn MF5 ISOs by any chance?
I really can't say anything concrete to either matter, sorry. I don't have a Blu-ray player (yet), but the HD DVD .iso I made with VS10+ worked like a charm.

pteittinen: if DVD decrypter is burning your ISOs OK, do they read in your PC drive as well as your Toshiba? Or do they just work fine in your Toshiba?

I'll give Videostudio10 a try, but am not sure it will help with the Blu-Ray ISO situation. Does it burn MF5 ISOs by any chance?

Only in HD DVD drive.. but they all work great. I did BTTF 1,2,3 like that and watched the first one yesterday (on 3 dvd-r)

All of a sudden I have this burning desire to buy a HD DVD burner. Wonder why... :D

With over 20 pages and 500 plus posts, has anyone come up with a guide to burn HD material to a DVD-r yet? I read in another post where Stacey Spears was comparing the new Samsung Bluray player to the Toshiba and he stated he was able to successfully burn HD material to a standard DVD-r and play it back on his Toshiba. Unfortunately he did not include any instructions for doing so.

Stace

It's not the same as burning to a DVD+R disc?

sdlehman, all the info you need is in this thread.

pteittinen
Its been mentioned here before, the VLC videolan player will play HD and then some.
It is free

Gene

Gene, I'm very familiar with VLC. I was talking about an application such as WinDVD HD, which would play the HD DVD/DVD+R disc I place in my PC's DVD drive. I don't think VLC understands anything about .EVO files and others found on the disc. I'll give it a shot, tho.

Surprisingly enough, VLC plays the .EVO file. It won't touch the .IFO files with a 10-foot pole, however.

Surprisingly enough, VLC plays the .EVO file. It won't touch the .IFO files with a 10-foot pole, however.

WinDVD HD is due out sometime in November or December, IIRC. A version of it is included now with the Toshiba laptop that has a builtin HD DVD player. I use Media Player Classic for EVO playback most of the time.

FYI, the Blu-ray authoring in DVD Movie Factory ver. 5.00 doesnt work in the Samsung player.

FYI, the Blu-ray authoring in DVD Movie Factory ver. 5.00 doesnt work in the Samsung player.

What type of recordable DVD did you try?

What type of recordable DVD did you try?
Wasn't it a question of Samsung requiring AACS be present even on a homemade BD-on-DVD disc?

I installed the Movie Factory 5 and was a bit dismayed to find that after an hour of tinkering, the software wouldn't offer me the option of creating a Disc Image. I know some folks on this thread have used that option, so I took a closer look at the software.

It appears there are different versions of the software - and I'm not talking about version numbers. This software is also available as an OEM version which can have some features disabled - disc image creation being one of them.

But I think I found a fix. This might not apply to all of you, naturally, and you will have to first uninstall the application from your HDD.

You need to be able to edit a textfile which is only found *before* the installation procedure. If you have the application installation files as a zip/rar file, you need to extract the files first into a directory. You're looking for a file called info.ini. The file contains information about what features to install.

In my info.ini, I found this bit:

[DMFSetting]
CreateDI=0

DI is obviously short for Disc Image, zero meaning that this feature will be disabled. Just change the zero to one, like this:

[DMFSetting]
CreateDI=1

and save the info.ini. Then install the application by running setup.exe. Worked for me!

Didn't work for me.

Didn't work for me.
:(

Didn't work for me.


Me neither... :(

I sure hope Nero comes up with some HD DVD tools that work for us soon!

Oh damn. Must've been something else I did that enabled the feature, then. I did clean the registry manually before re-installation, and switched some other zeros to ones in the info.ini, but as far as I know (well, guess) they had nothing to do with image creation.

Yeah, Nero and AVC support can't arrive soon enough. Ditto for NEC's HD DVD writers!

Oh damn. Must've been something else I did that enabled the feature, then. I did clean the registry manually before re-installation, and switched some other zeros to ones in the info.ini, but as far as I know (well, guess) they had nothing to do with image creation.

Yeah, Nero and AVC support can't arrive soon enough. Ditto for NEC's HD DVD writers!

Have you heard a suggested price for these burners? That won't matter too much, of course, if the discs are $20 a piece. That's just too expensive. The first time I bought a couple of DVD DL discs, they cost $13 each. Today, though, I saw them drop below $2 each in a Best Buy ad.

Please forgive a newbie here but i've read all 21 pages backwards and forwards and need a little help. I've got my .ts files using MPEGVCR converted over to mpeg. Now i've taken the file from MF5 and created my HD DVD folders (I have the recent demo version that does now allow ISO much to my dismay). I go into Nero and create a new DVD Video by trying to drag the "HD DVD_TS" folder contents over (which are five files with .bup, .ifo, and .evo) extensions but Nero won't accept these files saying they are not DVD Compliant.

I'm sure i'm making a rookie mistake here somewhere but would very much appreciate any help. Thanks for listening as well as everyone who has contributed their time and energy to this thread, it's an amazing resource.

What type of recordable DVD did you try?

TDK DVD-R 16x Printable

Me neither... :(

I sure hope Nero comes up with some HD DVD tools that work for us soon!

ditto here.

I hope pteittinen can retrace the steps and tell us which tinkering made the current version go back to the original.

I wouldn't count on any software vendor to come up with a silky smooth working software that will allow us to author HDDVD and BD with ease. The number of users here simply do not represent a big enough market share for them to be interested in. Plus they have to considered wasting all the investment if movie studios, HDDVD and DB groups threaten them with some lawsuit. It just is not worth it for software makers at this point and it is going to be a long time before the critical mass is reached.

We'd better make sure this process works rather than dreaming about some new software that will come along soon.

subbedout, my source is VC-1 and/or MPEG4AVC. Which is why I asked. :)

Sorry, man :cool:

ditto here.

I wouldn't count on any software vendor to come up with a silky smooth working software that will allow us to author HDDVD and BD with ease. The number of users here simply do not represent a big enough market share for them to be interested in. Plus they have to considered wasting all the investment if movie studios, HDDVD and DB groups threaten them with some lawsuit. It just is not worth it for software makers at this point and it is going to be a long time before the critical mass is reached.

We'd better make sure this process works rather than dreaming about some new software that will come along soon.


Hmmm well I think Joe Clark here would argue that the ever increasing numbers of Sony HC-1/HC-3 HD camcorder owners have a valid (and perfectly legal) application/reason for desiring to transfer their homemade recordings to HD optical media. However, as I mentioned in a prior message, the fact that these wonderful new tools also enable copyright infringement is one tough legal question to deal with in the future! :)

TDK DVD-R 16x Printable

Can you go into a little more depth about what you tried to get it working? Did you burn the two folders directly to DVD-R, or did you burn the ISO that Ulead generates?

A bit more info would help close off a few blind alleys.

... but Nero won't accept these files saying they are not DVD Compliant.
...

Normally there are 2 warning message in Nero - you have to click OK to both of them, then it goes ahead with the burn. Also make sure you're dragging to the top level of the directory in Nero - it's easy for a drag and drop to land in the TS_VIDEO folder, which is not what you want.

Hmmm well I think Joe Clark here would argue that the ever increasing numbers of Sony HC-1/HC-3 HD camcorder owners have a valid (and perfectly legal) application/reason for desiring to transfer their homemade recordings to HD optical media. However, as I mentioned in a prior message, the fact that these wonderful new tools also enable copyright infringement is one tough legal question to deal with in the future! :)

That they could be used that way doesn't mean their legitimate uses should be outlawed. That's really twisted thinking (I'm not saying it's yours). I'm not selling or trading these homemade discs. I'm not infringing anyone's copyright. The movie studios want to try the whole Betamax case over again. They lost that one in court and if they hadn't a lot of movie studios might be out of business. I'll say it again - the movie studios have never demonstrated they understand their own best interests. They would have outlawed the videotape. They have made huge amounts of money on the DVD, despite the fact that its copy protection was compromised almost as soon as the format was introduced. If greed and over the top copy paranoia don't prevail, and if they offer these new HD discs at a decent price, they will have another runaway success, just as they did with DVD. That success would be even greater if the major players had been able to overcome greed and come up with a single standard.

Can you go into a little more depth about what you tried to get it working? Did you burn the two folders directly to DVD-R, or did you burn the ISO that Ulead generates?

A bit more info would help close off a few blind alleys.

Video Studio 10's BD .iso output. The samsung BD player would not read the disc.

Disappointing. I've created a few sample BD images so far and this has been the result:

1. DVD Video titleset and BD-AV titleset on the same disk = only plays in SD
2. BD-AV titlesets burned to DVD = disk not read

So for now it would appear that either:

a. The Samsung will not read any HD content from a DVD-R
b. The authoring tools we have are not good for the final BD-AV spec

Whichever way you slice it, it seems that right now the Toshiba HD-DVD player is better for playing back your own HD content in that it will actually do it!

The only test we can perform now is to try the Blu-Ray Pioneer burner, burn an image to an actual BD disk and see if that works.

Disappointing. I've created a few sample BD images so far and this has been the result:

1. DVD Video titleset and BD-AV titleset on the same disk = only plays in SD
2. BD-AV titlesets burned to DVD = disk not read

So for now it would appear that either:

a. The Samsung will not read any HD content from a DVD-R
b. The authoring tools we have are not good for the final BD-AV spec

Whichever way you slice it, it seems that right now the Toshiba HD-DVD player is better for playing back your own HD content in that it will actually do it!

The only test we can perform now is to try the Blu-Ray Pioneer burner, burn an image to an actual BD disk and see if that works.

Guess that's all we'll be able to do at this point. At least the HD DVD option works well. For whatever reason, I'm no longer having a problem burning movies (knock on wood). Unfortunately, I just cleared a lot of them off my hard drives to make room for other recordings. I can burn DVDs about 10 times faster than I can read them (that's a guess - haven't timed it, but it feels like that). That's sad.

I hope pteittinen can retrace the steps and tell us which tinkering made the current version go back to the original.
I think the biggest problem here is the fact that there are many different versions of MF5. Not only version numbers, but different OEM versions created to ship with various DVD writers.

Anyhoo, I can only add to my earlier posting these tidbits:

1) After uninstalling MF5 and before reinstalling it, I manually cleaned my XP's registry of any and all referrals to Ulead and MF5. This might or might not have any bearing on the matter. Please note that I don't recommend this step to anyone who doesn't know what they're doing - it's way too easy to permanently f*** up your PC with Regedit.

2) I tweaked other lines in the info.ini file in addition to the one mentioned in my earlier post. I quite simply replaced some of the zeros with ones on lines I thought looked interesting.

However, I urge everyone to switch from MF5 to Ulead Videostudio 10+. It's not only faster, but it also supports Dolby Digital 5.1 soundtracks. MF5 downmixes 5.1 channel mixes to DD 2.0 stereo, which is just silly.

So for now it would appear that either:

a. The Samsung will not read any HD content from a DVD-R
b. The authoring tools we have are not good for the final BD-AV spec

Didn't sspears post about this a day or two ago? I think he mentioned the Samsung requires AACS to be present on all BD material - including these home-made BD-on-DVD discs. So, Samsung won't play BD content on your discs, because of the lack of AACS. I mentioned this earlier in this very thread, but nobody took any notice :/

Please forgive a newbie here but i've read all 21 pages backwards and forwards and need a little help. I've got my .ts files using MPEGVCR converted over to mpeg. Now i've taken the file from MF5 and created my HD DVD folders (I have the recent demo version that does now allow ISO much to my dismay). I go into Nero and create a new DVD Video by trying to drag the "HD DVD_TS" folder contents over (which are five files with .bup, .ifo, and .evo) extensions but Nero won't accept these files saying they are not DVD Compliant.

I'm sure i'm making a rookie mistake here somewhere but would very much appreciate any help. Thanks for listening as well as everyone who has contributed their time and energy to this thread, it's an amazing resource.

You need to drag it all the way to the folder section where you see the red video and audio_TS.

Thanks for the help, that was my mistake. I was dragging the files instead of the whole folder. So far so good... I did try try to change my MF5 settings to allow the ISO function but after two attempts to clean out my system (stopped short of the registry settings), I did not take. I hope Ulead sends out an "update" soon.

Thanks!

However, I urge everyone to switch from MF5 to Ulead Videostudio 10+. It's not only faster, but it also supports Dolby Digital 5.1 soundtracks. MF5 downmixes 5.1 channel mixes to DD 2.0 stereo, which is just silly.

That's interesting.

My test burns of some Blade Runner clips using MF5 worked great... for video. The audio is all "warbly".

I started up VS10+ but once I get to the video editor it looks just like MF5. I figured they just do the same thing. I'll have to look again.

I've been using HDTVtoMPEG2 to get program streams from my .ts files since it lets me do multiple .ts to a single .mpg. I got a trial version of Womble MPEG2VCR and on top of not doing multiple .ts to single .mpg, it seems to lock up 25-45% of the way through my files. ;(

So my audio problem could be the downmix or it could be HDTVtoMPEG2. Or something else.

dfriend,

HDTVtoMPEG2 is the way to go. That, or VideoReDo which seems capable of handling some streams HDTVtoMPEG2 balks at.

VS10+ passes DD5.1 audio straight through, exactly like it does with properly formatted 1920x1080i MPEG-2 video. MF5 does the downmix; you can check Ulead's website for confirmation, it's all there.

That's interesting.

My test burns of some Blade Runner clips using MF5 worked great... for video. The audio is all "warbly".


That's MF5's down-mixing to stereo, I believe. Set the audio digital output to PCM and it should go away. It also may go away if you use analog output.

That's interesting.

My test burns of some Blade Runner clips using MF5 worked great... for video. The audio is all "warbly".

I started up VS10+ but once I get to the video editor it looks just like MF5. I figured they just do the same thing. I'll have to look again.

I've been using HDTVtoMPEG2 to get program streams from my .ts files since it lets me do multiple .ts to a single .mpg. I got a trial version of Womble MPEG2VCR and on top of not doing multiple .ts to single .mpg, it seems to lock up 25-45% of the way through my files. ;(

So my audio problem could be the downmix or it could be HDTVtoMPEG2. Or something else.

MPEG2VCR does allow you to join multiple .ts files into one MPEG program stream. After you start the program, press f6, which launches the "Video Clip List" window. Drag the files (from Explorer) you want to join into the "Clip List" window and hit "OK." Now you can edit out commercials and save the file as a program stream, just like a single file.

I'm going to try VideoRedo and HDTVtoMPEG2 again, now that whatever was funky in my system seems to be straightened out. Before, I was almost never able to get those two programs to create MPEG files I could use in MF5. Even MPEG2VCR wasn't able to work with most of my movie files. Honestly, I don't know what I did to correct this. I did reinstall both MPEG2VCR and MF5, both the full retail versions. I am not terribly comfortable NOT KNOWING what it was causing the failures, but I'm not looking this gift horse in the mouth. I have 13 movies ready to burn to DVD DL disks.

dfriend,

HDTVtoMPEG2 is the way to go. That, or VideoReDo which seems capable of handling some streams HDTVtoMPEG2 balks at.

VS10+ passes DD5.1 audio straight through, exactly like it does with properly formatted 1920x1080i MPEG-2 video. MF5 does the downmix; you can check Ulead's website for confirmation, it's all there.

My receiver reports 5.1 audio for files that start with it. If you check the box in MF5 that says "Do not convert compliant MPEG files," you should retain your 5.1 audio.

Hey guys, thanks for the suggestions.

I should note that for now I'm using the SPDIF output on the A1, just for a quick and dirty hookup. My receiver was reporting 5.1 but maybe it was confused.

Thanks!

My receiver reports 5.1 audio for files that start with it. If you check the box in MF5 that says "Do not convert compliant MPEG files," you should retain your 5.1 audio.
Ulead website states that MF5 supports only 2.0 audio. It's mentioned somewhere on the website (in the FAQ, perhsps) that DD5.1 is downmixed to DD2.0. AND it's done that every single time I've tried it.

Either the manual or the website also mentions that the "Do not convert compliant MPEG files" means video only - but compliant audio is passed through as-is. For MF5 that means DD2.0, not DD5.1. But hey, great if it works for you :D

Did it occur to anyone that the ability to play HD content on the toshiba is unique because it uses a HD-DVD rom computer drive? This allows the toshiba to spin regular DVDs fast enough to overcome the HD bitrate on DVDs.

Don't be suprised when other HD-DVD players start coming out that don't have a HD-DVD rom drive won't be able to play HD content on DVDs because their built in player only spins DVDs at 1x.

This may also be why BR isn't working since the player can't spin the disk fast enough to read the HD content since its probably a 1x dvd drive. I have yet to see the insides of the samsung.

Or am I talking out of my ass and there is some sort of specification saying that all players should have the capability to read HD from regular DVDs?

ZZ

Did it occur to anyone that the ability to play HD content on the toshiba is unique because it uses a HD-DVD rom computer drive? This allows the toshiba to spin regular DVDs fast enough to overcome the HD bitrate on DVDs.
That's a very good point. Sounds about right to me.

Ulead website states that MF5 supports only 2.0 audio. It's mentioned somewhere on the website (in the FAQ, perhsps) that DD5.1 is downmixed to DD2.0. AND it's done that every single time I've tried it.

Either the manual or the website also mentions that the "Do not convert compliant MPEG files" means video only - but compliant audio is passed through as-is. For MF5 that means DD2.0, not DD5.1. But hey, great if it works for you :D

Did you really mean to say that "compliant audio is passed through as-is"? That would seem to indicate that the audio is passed through the process as it exists in the original file, which is what I think has been happening. My receiver reports the audio as Dolby Digital 5.1. I'd really be interested in results others are getting with their projects.

Did it occur to anyone that the ability to play HD content on the toshiba is unique because it uses a HD-DVD rom computer drive? This allows the toshiba to spin regular DVDs fast enough to overcome the HD bitrate on DVDs.

Don't be suprised when other HD-DVD players start coming out that don't have a HD-DVD rom drive won't be able to play HD content on DVDs because their built in player only spins DVDs at 1x.

This may also be why BR isn't working since the player can't spin the disk fast enough to read the HD content since its probably a 1x dvd drive. I have yet to see the insides of the samsung.

Or am I talking out of my ass and there is some sort of specification saying that all players should have the capability to read HD from regular DVDs?

ZZ

That sounds plausible except for this - most of the material we're talking about here doesn't have a bitrate that even come close to the rated read speed of most DVD drives. I thought maybe it was that recordable media were inherently slower to read because of the dye medium used for the writes, as opposed to the pits in a commercially pressed DVD. Most DVD drives claim a read speed of 10x-16x. That's plenty of throughput for the HD bitrate of almost all the movies I've recorded from satellite. The Toshiba red laser has no trouble reading the dye even at high bitrates (like Grandmaster's 30mbps).

For some strange reason, if I take a HDDVD folder generated by DVD Movie Factory and burn the contents as a dvd data disk, the Toshiba will only play the HDDVD only if using +RW or -RW media. Using +R/-R disks are not recognized by The player.

Anyone tried using +RW/-RW on the BD player?
---

Further, as for the suggestion that the players have 1X readers for DVD. I doubt that is even possible. Everybody's systems starts out with the ATAPI i/f. This is likely going to stay like this for a few years until all the sw kinks are worked out, then the integration push will happen to shave a few pennies. But even then the flexibility of reading HDV files will become a must have feature, and any manufacturer will have be insane to not support this...

Or am I talking out of my ass and there is some sort of specification saying that all players should have the capability to read HD from regular DVDs?

ZZ

It is ass-talk, alas! Both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD have the ability to read HD material from red-laser DVD media. Warner Brothers insisted on it so they could produce cheapo HD disks pressed on DVD-9 for lower-end titles, encoded into AVC or VC1. Both of those codecs will easily fit a two hour movie at good quality onto an 8.5GB dual layer disk.

The format, on Blu-Ray at least, is known as BD-9. HD-DVD has been built up from day one to be backwards compatible with DVD.

It's the whole reason I came to this thread in the first place :D

There is no 'BD-5' format though so that may be why burning single layer DVD doesn't work for Blu-Ray. Or else they may simply have locked out recordable DVDs?

But there might be political (copy protection, market preservation) or a simple firmware bug that could prevent that. As it stands now, I am at this moment watching the HD-A1 blinking firmware "update 40PCT ", hoping this will solve the -R/+R issue. I can't find printable DVD/RW media anywhere.

Btw, the HDMI output on this would not display on the philips LCD TV's HDMI input or my plasma's DVi/HDCP input, so I am also hoping this firmware upgrade will also fix this.

How about wmv-hd, divx-hd, avc-hd burned on DVD-R as files in ISO or UDF mode? It playable on Toshiba?

Did you really mean to say that "compliant audio is passed through as-is"?
Yes - compliant from MF5 point of view. And according to Ulead, MF5 supports DD2.0, not DD5.1. I did some 10 test burns with content which had DD5.1 audio, tried every option MF5 provided, and every single time the audio was downmixed to DD2.0. But like I said, if it works for you, that's great.

How about wmv-hd, divx-hd, avc-hd burned on DVD-R as files in ISO or UDF mode? It playable on Toshiba?
No.

Anyone tried using +RW/-RW on the BD player?
I haven't, but I've used both -R and +R very successfully.

No.
mp3's :)?

I haven't, but I've used both -R and +R very successfully.

Updated firmware to 1.2 (still no go with +R/-R)

My DVD MF5 does not produce ISO image, just the file folder. If I take Sonic RecordNow Data and burn the file folder to a DVD-RW or DVD+RW, the disk is playable. With DVD-R and DVD+R, the disk is not playable.

What authoring program did you use to create the +R/-R?

mp3's :)?
yes!

Indra: Try using Nero Burning ROM. Create a DVD video, put anything you want into the VIDEO_TS folder (a blank text file if you like) then move your HD-DVD titleset into the DVD-ROM portion of the disk (below VIDEO_TS in the left pane).

Then burn like that. This is how everyone else without ISO burning has coped.

What authoring program did you use to create the +R/-R?
Used both MF5 and VS10+ with success. Both output into image file, which was then written with ImgBurn, using BenQ 1650 and NEC 3500 drives. And firmware v1.12 here, too. I'd hazard a guess your problem lies with Sonic.

I took the -RW disk, moved to my desktop, ran nero to (1) create disk image on hdd [.nrg file] . (2) burn disk image to dvd-r .

DVD-R made using Nero from diskimage of the -RW disk now also plays flawlessly. There's lots to be said about that HDV camcorder but that's a topic for another day and another forum.

I am installing Nero next onto my laptop (the main HDV capture machine) to see if it works better than Sonic.

Now if I can only solve why both my philips HDMI LCD and optoma DVI/HDCP would not synch to the HD-A1 HDMI output, things would be just perfect.

Yes - compliant from MF5 point of view. And according to Ulead, MF5 supports DD2.0, not DD5.1. I did some 10 test burns with content which had DD5.1 audio, tried every option MF5 provided, and every single time the audio was downmixed to DD2.0. But like I said, if it works for you, that's great.

Well pteittinen, it works for me too. All of my HD-DVDs I've made with MF5 have their DD5.1 soundtracks intact. So Ulead must have changed something in the'r current version. I have the original release. If you have an FTP site, I could upload a test disc image created with MF5 from a 1080i DD5.1 recording, for you to try. They are all definietly retaining their 5.1 soundtracks.

MArc.

Marc, that's great, it's working for you. However, the version I have stubbornly insists on downmixing DD5.1 to DD2.0. I think it's obvious there are different versions of MF5 floating about the place, with different features. It matters not, since VS10+ does the trick for me.

I did two different burns of the same source material using MF5 and VS10+. The source was 1080i with 384kbps DD5.1. VS10+ "create disc" tool appears in all ways identical to MF5 except you can choose different audio encoding options. MF5 only allows 2-ch while VS10+ allows DD5.1. Neither support 720p.

For both I had the "don't encode MPEG compliant streams" or whatever and both appeared to do the same thing. Both discs do the same thing when played in the A1 and outputting audio over SPDIF with SPDIF set to bitstream: my receiver reports the stream as DD5.1 but the sound is warbly. If I change the SPDIF output to PCM the sound is clear but is only 2-ch.

Is anyone else using SPDIF? I plan on trying the analog out but I haven't gotten around to it yet.

By the way when I finally ask MF5 or VS10+ to make the HD DVD folder the only step that really takes any time is something about remuxing or demuxing video and audio. I wouldn't think that would take as long as it does, so perhaps it is still downmixing my audio.

Does anyone know of any way to play the .EVO output directly on a PC so I can find out if the audio is really 5.1 or corrupted 5.1 or just plain 2.0? I changed the .EVO to .mpg and zoom player opened the file and showed the first frame but it didn't play.

dfriend,

when you used VS10+, did you change the audio encoding settings to match the audio in source? Same number of channels and same bitrate etc? I think if you do that, VS10+ will do a direct copy of the audio without any messing around. I believe warbling means the audio got downmixed, or very badly re-encoded from DD5.1 to DD5.1.

Both MF5 and VS10+ seem to very picky about settings and source material. I tested a TS which had a resolution of 1920x1088i and both applications insisted on re-encoding the whole thing.

Is anyone else using SPDIF?
I'm using SPDIF exclusively, haven't connected any analogs at all. I can hear "warbling" in discs created with MF5 when source had DD5.1 audio.

Does anyone know of any way to play the .EVO output directly on a PC
VLC (www.videolan.org) played it and I believe someone mentioned Windows Mediaplayer Classic (i.e. not the Microsoft one, but the Gabest one) did the trick as well.

dfriend,

when you used VS10+, did you change the audio encoding settings to match the audio in source? Same number of channels and same bitrate etc? I think if you do that, VS10+ will do a direct copy of the audio without any messing around. I believe warbling means the audio got downmixed, or very badly re-encoded from DD5.1 to DD5.1.

Both MF5 and VS10+ seem to very picky about settings and source material. I tested a TS which had a resolution of 1920x1088i and both applications insisted on re-encoding the whole thing.


I'm using SPDIF exclusively, haven't connected any analogs at all. I can hear "warbling" in discs created with MF5 when source had DD5.1 audio.


VLC (www.videolan.org) played it and I believe someone mentioned Windows Mediaplayer Classic (i.e. not the Microsoft one, but the Gabest one) did the trick as well.



Bottom line is, if MF5 re-encodes the video (it calls it 'converting' ), it downsamples the audio. If it doesn't re-encode, the audio remains untouched.

Marc, that certainly isn't what I experienced with MF5. I *never* let it re-encode/convert video (i.e. always fed it compliant 1080i mpeg2), and yet it always downmixed DD5.1 to DD2.0. We must be running different versions of the application.

Marc, that certainly isn't what I experienced with MF5. I *never* let it re-encode/convert video (i.e. always fed it compliant 1080i mpeg2), and yet it always downmixed DD5.1 to DD2.0. We must be running different versions of the application.

I don't know what logic Ulead was using to remove the 5.1 capability from recent versions. I guess its a good thing I got mine when I did.

Marc.

Marc, the logic is that VS10+ is more expensive than MF5. :D

I tried that approach. I have nero and created a DATA DVD with a folder VIDEO_TS with a a 0 bte .txt file, and then also added a 2nd folder HVDVD_TS in there.

Direct burning the above with Nero to a DVD-R did not play for me. Burning to a +RW does.
The HVDVD_TS folder is an upper level folder, right? It should not work if it is a sub-folder of the VIDEO_TS folder.

I've had no problems with DVD-R disks. Do standard def DVD-R's play? Did you update the Toshiba firmware? I did and it now is a lot less picky with what it plays.

Use AviSynth to do it and the results are excellent.

Could I impose upon you to attach your script or whatever you use to do the transcoding?

I have a lot of really good 720p content that I'd like to archive.

The HVDVD_TS folder is an upper level folder, right? It should not work if it is a sub-folder of the VIDEO_TS folder.

I've had no problems with DVD-R disks. Do standard def DVD-R's play? Did you update the Toshiba firmware? I did and it now is a lot less picky with what it plays.
Both are top levels and my firmware is 1.2. Which version of Nero works, and did I miss a step somewhere? I was burning them as DATA DVD, and physically copied the two folders over before burning.

You need to burn them as DVD Video. Nero will create VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS for you, you just need to move the HD DVD folder over and put a dummy .VOB in the VIDEO_TS folder and burn away.

I use Nero 7 so I can burn DL discs.

There is a lot of reading here for newbies. Maybe someone can do a post showing the complete process step by step and include links to the needed software and I will do a sticky for everyone.

There is a lot of reading here for newbies. Maybe someone can do a post showing the complete process step by step and include links to the needed software and I will do a sticky for everyone.

I'll do it, Alan. Here's what I'd like to do, though, if it's OK with everyone.

First, give me a couple of days. I'd like to download Video Studio 10 and use it as a starting point (I intended to buy it anyway). If the latest version of Movie Factory 5 won't allow us to retain the full 5.1 audio sound track, the whole process becomes a lot less attractive. I'd also like to use Womble MPEG2VCR as the MPEG editor.

I think it would be best to document the process with the currently available software, maybe with some notes about what the earlier software can do (such as earlier versions of MF5 seeming to offer the ability to pass through the 5.1 sound track) and alternative MPEG editors.

I'll also test it on at least two completely different computers - AMD and Intel systems with completely different configurations, using at least three different MPEG test files.

Then, I'd like to do the guide and give everyone a chance to edit me for errors and omissions before you sticky it.

Sound alright?

Joeseph, thanks for your efforts on that, I think that idea sounds excellent.

I do have another question. I've now been able to successfully author a handful of full length feature HD-DVDs thanks to everyone's help here. I do have a couple of odd things that keep happening to me in the process however.

1 - When I have a project using multiple .ts files, for some reason Womble doesn't like compiling these on my machine and always chokes when I do the (F6) command to add multple files and churn out a Program Stream MPEG. Instead, I wind up using MPEG2VCR to compile my multiple files into one full .ts file and then use womble to split that into two MPEGs. It works most every time but seems odd that I need ot use MPEG2VCR at all.

2 - I have one specific project that is using about 120 .ts files. Unfortunately MPEG2VCR seems to be unable to combine the files. I've tried even combining just 2-3 .ts files to see if that makes a difference. All I get at the end is a small 3k file with the correct filename but no data. That wouldn't be such a issue if I didn't have problem #1 above and could simply use womble to take my ts files and turn then into a usable mpeg. I'd appreciate any ideas as what is happening here and what I might be able to do to remedy this?

Thanks a ton again for everyones help here!

Joseph, when you write the step-by-step guide, please list VideoReDo as an alternative for Womble. It's an excellent piece of software, and quite affordable to boot.

dsss12, here's my workflow:

1) copy all .ts files of a movie to a separate directory A (as an example)
2) start a command prompt, either from Start-menu (Run -> cmd + enter), or using the Open Command Window Here option which comes with Powertoys for Windows XP (free download at Microsoft.com) and navigate to directory A
3) use DOS command copy /B *.ts ..\movie.ts which combines all .ts files into one .ts file
4) use either HDTVtoMPEG or VideoReDo to convert .ts into .mpg
5) author image with Ulead Videostudio 10+
6) burn image with ImgBurn

I have lot of problem to make HD DVD with HD video record from US channel.
I don't want to recode the video (in UMF5 or other), I want to have the exactly same
video. I use HDTV2MPEG or PVAInstr*** to convert *.ts to *.mpg.
But some time UMF5 don't accept the video in passtrough (without recode).
I want to know the restriction to use HD video in UMF5 in HD DVD project, I think
it is a problem of GOP structure (I know there is some limitations of picture resolution).

Golgot13

I have lot of problem to make HD DVD with HD video record from US channel.
I don't want to recode the video (in UMF5 or other), I want to have the exactly same
video. I use HDTV2MPEG or PVAInstr*** to convert *.ts to *.mpg.
But some time UMF5 don't accept the video in passtrough (without recode).
I want to know the restriction to use HD video in UMF5 in HD DVD project, I think
it is a problem of GOP structure (I know there is some limitations of picture resolution).

Kader

At present, Movie Factory 5 will accept MPEGs at resolutions of 1920x1080i, 1440x1080i (HDV) and 1280x1080i, without re-encoding. Some files that report being 1920x1080i still refuse to be loaded (for me anyway). 720p is not supported without re-encoding.

I'm working on the guide, guys, and should have something in a couple of days. I may have some questions about Video Studio 10 for those of you who have been using it.

Both are top levels and my firmware is 1.2. Which version of Nero works, and did I miss a step somewhere? I was burning them as DATA DVD, and physically copied the two folders over before burning.
You should be burning the disks as DVD Video, containing the two folders. You'll get wanrings about them being non-standard video disks, but just continue.

On your Ulead projects, are the menu highlights appearing on-screen? IE, when you select an option do you actually see it being highlighted? The reason I ask is that it doesn't work on disks authored with DVD Studio Pro, so I was wondering if it's a problem with the Tosh (Ulead does the same) or a problem with DVD Studio Pro (Ulead works).

Here's an AviSynth file that will convert 720p footage to 1080i.


# Convert Progressive Scan to 1080i, 29.97fps
AVISource("c:\youravihere.avi")
LanczosResize(1920,1080)
ConvertFPS(59.94)
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4,1,2)
Weave()


If you want to use MPEG2s instead, and your MPEG2s play OK in Mediaplayer, change AviSource() for DirectShowSource()

You can adjust the resize variable for 1280, 1440 or 1920x1080 footage. Indeed, there is much to be said bitrate-wise for doing a 1280x1080 encode, if you are effectively wasting bandwidth on expanding the image to 1920 horizontal pixels.

This script will create an upper-field first video, so be sure to encode your MPEG2 with upper-field first set.

3) use DOS command copy /B *.ts ..\movie.ts which combines all .ts files into one .ts file

Are you sure that is in the correct format?

Gruson, what makes you say that? I'm quite sure it is, as I've been using that command more than a few times.

If source is mpeg2 720p60 authored as HD-DVD by DVDSP4 and recorded onto DVD+-R
is playable on Toshiba?

What causes the stuttery playback?

I guess there are many reasons for causing the stutery playback.

From my own experience there are three:

1. the captured video file has drop outs. To check that, use VLC media player to view the file before letting Ulead cook it.

2. EVO files created in HVDVD_TS folder have defects. You can also check that by using VLC.

3. Without any problems in the initial HD video file and EVOs by Ulead, if the disk doesn't play properly then it is likely the burning software. I know I had to replace my Nero with a different version to get it to work correctly.

Hopefully that helps.

If source is mpeg2 720p60 authored as HD-DVD by DVDSP4 and recorded onto DVD+-R
is playable on Toshiba?


yes

yes

Thank you, WiFi-Spy.
I've read about problem for authoring h.264 by DVDSP 4.1
May be problem in wrong settings of DVDSP encoder to produce AVC?
Just try trial of last version (2.0.15) MainConcept H.264 encoder,
which have preset for encoding HD-DVD compliant avc stream "H.264 HDTV 720p"

P.S.Sonic's CineVision avc coder based on MainConcept engine;)

I've got the 1080i authoring process down. Now I'd like to try some 720p sources. A few questions.

1) How exactly do you use Avisynth to convert a file? What's the quality of the output. I have tried to let MF5 do the conversion, and get the stuttering and other problems that people have talked about.

2) What is the size of the resulting file in comparison to the original when converted to 1280, 1440 or 1920?

3) Any new programs/add ons coming out to allow you to keep the 720p source?

By the way, has any one been able to get this same process to work with the Samsung BD player? Is it possible that the early versions of MF5, much like they have the ability to create disc images, would be able to create a playable BD disc? Or is it an AACS issue as some have alluded to, in which case we won't ever (or at least any time soon) be able to author or own BD discs?

OK I've been having mucho problems converting my D*/R5000-HD captures to HD DVD format as described in this thread. From Joe Clark and others observations it seems that both Ulead MF5 and VS10 don't want to accept 1280x1088i files like those currently being sent to us by DirecTV. So I asked in the HDTV Recorders forum if anyone knew of a utility that would convert 1088i files to 1080i...lo and behold AVS member Balazer pointed me to his fix1088 utility which can be found here:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~balazer/atsc/

I had a R5000-HD captured ts file in 1280x1088i format of HBO-HD's recent Star Wars:Revenge of the Sith which I've been chomping at the bit to get transferred to HD DVD. I ran this file through Balazer's utility...the following is an example of what the fix1088 command line should look like when you want to do the conversion:

fix1088 -s "G:\Star Wars-ROTS for ULead.ts" 11

The 11 represents the video PID for the file...leave off the "-s" if you don't mind having the converted 1080i file overwrite the old 1088i file

So I loaded the newly converted 1080i file into VS10 (after editing with Womble MPEG-VCR) and voila! it immediately began doing the HD DVD folder conversion without insisting on reencoding (took about 10 minutes for the roughly 8 GB file). Previously if I loaded a 1088i file into either MF5 or VS10 it would insist on reencoding the file even if I had checked the "do not convert MPEG compliant files" option. I then used Nero 6.4 to burn the file to a DL disk and it worked! I now have an awesome custom HD DVD of Star Wars: ROTS!

Here is a work flow of how I accomplished this project:

1) Use HDTVtoMPEG2 v 1.11.83 to remove null packets from the captured 1280x1088i file (have H2M keep the file in ts format)-for the Star Wars capture the resulting file was about 8.95 GB...just a bit too large to fit on one DL +R disk

2) Run the file resulting from step 1 through Balazer's fix1088 utility as described above.

3) Edit the resulting 1080i file in Womble MPEG-VCR v 3.14...output the files as MPEG 2 program stream (for the Star Wars example above I had to generate one file of about 8 GB and a second file of about 0.95 GB).

4) Load files into either MF5 or VS10 (I confirmed that this process works with both) and create the HD DVD folder on disk.

5) Burn the HD DVD folder to single or dual layer DVD +R disks as described earlier in this thread.

One interesting note from all of this is that my 8 GB Star Wars DL HD DVD disk 1 contained 2 hours and 3 minutes of video with some room to spare (I put the remaining 17 minutes of the film on a second single layer DVD +R disk). This would imply that the above process should yield files containing 2 hour or less movies that can be burned to one DL disk. The PQ of my Star Wars disk is fantastic, even at 1280x1080i. I guess this is an example of D*'s crappy HD-Lite policy working in our favor! :)

For those interested here's the software version/equipment I used to generate the Star Wars disk:

HP Pavilion 2.5 GHz P4
LG GSA-2164D dual layer external burner
Ulead DVD Movie Factory v 5.0.0189/VideoStudio 10 trial version
Nero v 6.6.1.4
Womble MPEG-VCR v 3.14 (12/2005)
Toshiba HD-A1 HD DVD player

Thanks again to Jacob Balazer for pointing me to his fix1088 utility...hope the above info helps some of you! :)

You should be burning the disks as DVD Video, containing the two folders. You'll get wanrings about them being non-standard video disks, but just continue.
Turns out I had to get Nero Ultra and not the Express version that came with a dvd burner...

Nero Ultra 6 has a Nero Burning ROM app that does what you outlined. Thanx.

... I then used Nero 6.4 to burn the file to a DL disk and it worked! ...


I'm sure others have asked this, but I don't remember the answer. I just burned my first DVD R+ DL disk and it is not recognized by the Toshiba. What I'm doing is simple:
Creating an ISO file using MF5 (version 5.0 that supports HD DVD and BD).
Burning this ISO to a Memorex DL disk using Nero 6.6.1.4. Nero says it is automatically converting the Book Type to DVD-ROM.

So, where am I going wrong? Should I not crate an ISO file? Is it the brand of DL DVDs? Or is it because Nero is setting the Book Type?

Thanks,
Tim

I'm sure others have asked this, but I don't remember the answer. I just burned my first DVD R+ DL disk and it is not recognized by the Toshiba. What I'm doing is simple:
Creating an ISO file using MF5 (version 5.0 that supports HD DVD and BD).
Burning this ISO to a Memorex DL disk using Nero 6.6.1.4. Nero saws it is automatically creating converting the Book Type to DVD-ROM.

So, where am I going wrong? Should I not crate an ISO file? Is it the brand of DL DVDs? Or is it because Nero is setting the Book Type?

Thanks,
Tim

FWIW, I use ImgBurn and have had no problems with any of the media I have used - DVD-R, DVD+RW, DVD+R DL

So, where am I going wrong? Should I not crate an ISO file? Is it the brand of DL DVDs? Or is it because Nero is setting the Book Type?

Thanks,
Tim

It could be any of those. I think I do remember some posts awhile back with people having better luck if they leave the book type alone, i.e. do not change it to dvd-rom.

What does your player do? Does is just lock up? Does it display "DVD" on the front panel and not play, does it display "HDDVD" and not play? None of the above?

FWIW, I use ImgBurn and have had no problems with any of the media I have used - DVD-R, DVD+RW, DVD+R DL
I don't think the problem is Nero. I've not had any problems with any other media. I'm getting ImgBurn now, but I'd rather know what the problem is before I waste another DL disk. Do you mind answering a few questions? Does ImgBurn set the book type? Are you using Memorex DL disks? Are you using Version 5.0.0 of MF5?

Thanks,
Tim

Here's an AviSynth file that will convert 720p footage to 1080i.


# Convert Progressive Scan to 1080i, 29.97fps
AVISource("c:\youravihere.avi")
LanczosResize(1920,1080)
ConvertFPS(59.94)
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4,1,2)
Weave()


If you want to use MPEG2s instead, and your MPEG2s play OK in Mediaplayer, change AviSource() for DirectShowSource()

You can adjust the resize variable for 1280, 1440 or 1920x1080 footage. Indeed, there is much to be said bitrate-wise for doing a 1280x1080 encode, if you are effectively wasting bandwidth on expanding the image to 1920 horizontal pixels.

This script will create an upper-field first video, so be sure to encode your MPEG2 with upper-field first set.

Excellent, thank you! I'll give it a shot.

It could be any of those. I think I do remember some posts awhile back with people having better luck if they leave the book type alone, i.e. do not change it to dvd-rom.

What does your player do? Does is just lock up? Does it display "DVD" on the front panel and not play, does it display "HDDVD" and not play? None of the above?

The player says 'No Disk' after a fairly long 'Loading' period. It never displays 'DVD' or 'HDVDV' ... just 'Loading' followed by 'No Disk'

I'm sure others have asked this, but I don't remember the answer. I just burned my first DVD R+ DL disk and it is not recognized by the Toshiba. What I'm doing is simple:
Creating an ISO file using MF5 (version 5.0 that supports HD DVD and BD).
Burning this ISO to a Memorex DL disk using Nero 6.6.1.4. Nero saws it is automatically creating converting the Book Type to DVD-ROM.

So, where am I going wrong? Should I not crate an ISO file? Is it the brand of DL DVDs? Or is it because Nero is setting the Book Type?

Thanks,
Tim

I got similar results with Pioneer, Toshiba, Sony DVD burners. I was able to get DL discs that worked with a Mad Dog DVD burner and Plextor 750a burners. I tried Memorex and Verbatim discs on the Pioneer, because word has it that it bitsets to DVD-ROM automatically. Didn't matter. Couldn't get it to work. Of course, this was when I was having other flaky problems, and I haven't retried since then.

I've downloaded VideoStudio 10 and cannot remember how to get the program to create an HD DVD project. It's stuck in DVD only mode. I tried a search on this thread but couldn't find the info on how to do it.

It shouldn't take me long to finish the guide, but I need this info first. :confused:

I've got the 1080i authoring process down. Now I'd like to try some 720p sources. A few questions.

1) How exactly do you use Avisynth to convert a file? What's the quality of the output. I have tried to let MF5 do the conversion, and get the stuttering and other problems that people have talked about.

You install AviSynth, adjust the script I posted to your taste and save it as 'conversion.avs'. Load that into Canopus Procoder 2 and encode as a 1080i, upper-field first, two-pass VBR MPEG2 program stream at the bitrate of your choosing. For a cheaper option I believe the TMPEG MPEG2 encoder can do HD too.


2) What is the size of the resulting file in comparison to the original when converted to 1280, 1440 or 1920?

That will depend on the bitrate you choose for the re-encode. Personally, the way I see it is that if you source has a 1280 horizontal resolution you will simply be wasting bitrate by artificially scaling horizontally.

Note that *any* kind of re-encoding of MPEG2 material will result in worse quality. Keep the bitrate high enough though and you should be fine.

3) Any new programs/add ons coming out to allow you to keep the 720p source?

If you have a Mac and can outlay $1200 for Final Cut Studio, then DVD Studio Pro 4 seems to be able to do it, but the menu functionality is broken in that.

By the way, has any one been able to get this same process to work with the Samsung BD player? Is it possible that the early versions of MF5, much like they have the ability to create disc images, would be able to create a playable BD disc? Or is it an AACS issue as some have alluded to, in which case we won't ever (or at least any time soon) be able to author or own BD discs?

BD-AV authoring is coming but Ulead definitely doesn't work on the Samsung player - not even if you burn to an actual Blu-Ray rewritable.

An other Mac guys wanna compare tips and tricks for authoring HD DVDs? (w/ DSP4)

Wifi-Spy - I'm tempted to join you and buy a Mac and Final Cut Studio, as I'm willing to bet that DVD Studio Pro 5 will have the HD-DVD issues ironed out and Blu-Ray authoring included too.

720p/60 MPEG2 encoding is great news, but are you having the same issue with regards menu highlights not working on the Toshiba player? Has there been any word from Apple about a fix?

Wifi-Spy - I'm tempted to join you and buy a Mac and Final Cut Studio, as I'm willing to bet that DVD Studio Pro 5 will have the HD-DVD issues ironed out and Blu-Ray authoring included too.

720p/60 MPEG2 encoding is great news, but are you having the same issue with regards menu highlights not working on the Toshiba player? Has there been any word from Apple about a fix?

no go on the menus or working H.264 HD DVDs....

also the .ac3 sound is not working. I have made a working HD DVD with LPCM and DTS audio.

Has there been no official response from Apple about these problems? They make a big deal about HD and yet the one decent HD delivery system they have is broken by the looks of it.

Grandmaster, WiFi-Spy,
This tread mostly dedicated to UDMF5 and mpeg-2 HD authoring.
What if we'll talk about h.264 and DVDSP there:
Any HD-DVD authoring tool for H.264/AVC Elementary Stream? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=692721)
Thank you!

I've downloaded VideoStudio 10 and cannot remember how to get the program to create an HD DVD project. It's stuck in DVD only mode. I tried a search on this thread but couldn't find the info on how to do it.

It shouldn't take me long to finish the guide, but I need this info first. :confused:

Joe:

When you first open VS10 select "Videostudio Editor", then select "tools", then "create disc" which will open up a dialog box similar to what you have seen in MF5. Click on the drop down box at the bottom left corner (it will say DVD 4.7G) and the HD DVD option will appear.

I'm sure others have asked this, but I don't remember the answer. I just burned my first DVD R+ DL disk and it is not recognized by the Toshiba. What I'm doing is simple:
Creating an ISO file using MF5 (version 5.0 that supports HD DVD and BD).
Burning this ISO to a Memorex DL disk using Nero 6.6.1.4. Nero saws it is automatically creating converting the Book Type to DVD-ROM.

So, where am I going wrong? Should I not crate an ISO file? Is it the brand of DL DVDs? Or is it because Nero is setting the Book Type?

Thanks,
Tim


Tim:

I have a later version of MF5 that does not support image burning so all of my success stories so far have resulted from letting MF5 or VS10 create the HD DVD folders on disk. I then use Nero 6.6.1.4 to burn the HD DVD folders to either SL or DL DVD +R disks as described earlier in this thread.

The disks I have successfully used so far are Memorex +R (SL), Sony +R (SL) and Verbatim +R (DL). My burner is an LG GSA-2164D external dual layer burner. My version of Nero sets the book type automatically to DVD ROM as well and it does not seem to affect the resulting HD DVD disks at all in my hands.

Tim:
...The disks I have successfully used so far are Memorex +R (SL), Sony +R (SL) and Verbatim +R (DL). My burner is an LG GSA-2164D external dual layer burner. My verison of Nero sets the book type automatically to DVD ROM as well and it does not seem to affect the resulting HD DVD disks at all in my hands.
Thanks, Rick. It seems like the main differences are that I'm crating an ISO image and that I'm using a NEC 3550A burner. I'll go back to crating the folders on my PC (not creating an ISO) and see if that works. I have created many SL disks that way.

Grandmaster, WiFi-Spy,
This tread mostly dedicated to UDMF5 and mpeg-2 HD authoring.
What if we'll talk about h.264 and DVDSP there:
Any HD-DVD authoring tool for H.264/AVC Elementary Stream? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=692721)
Thank you!
vsv -
Thanks for the link, but please don't send these guys away from this thread. They've given me lots of very useful information!
Tim

I don't think the problem is Nero. I've not had any problems with any other media. I'm getting ImgBurn now, but I'd rather know what the problem is before I waste another DL disk. Do you mind answering a few questions? Does ImgBurn set the book type? Are you using Memorex DL disks? Are you using Version 5.0.0 of MF5?

Thanks,
Tim

I'm not sure what the settings on ImgBurn are - just left it at default settings.
I am using Ridata DL discs.
MF5 version is 5.0.0001.0

P.S.Sonic's CineVision avc coder based on MainConcept engine;)

Are you sure Cinevision based on Mainconcept engine ?

Mainconcept don't have MBAFF, PAFF and matrix quantification options yet...

I sure for ~70 000$ CineVision support it (I hope).


Golgot13
HD DVD membership

You can set the booktype manually with ImgBurn.

Are you sure Cinevision based on Mainconcept engine ?

Mainconcept don't have MBAFF, PAFF and matrix quantification options yet...

I sure for ~70 000$ CineVision support it (I hope).


Golgot13
HD DVD membership

About MainConcept(Elecard=Moonlight) i've seen info on doom9 forum...
~$70K for CineVision?! Sonic is a robber...
Golgot13, do you know price of CarbonCoder? http://www.rhozet.com/CarbonCoderPE.html
Interface of CarbonCoder very similar to Canopus ProCoder and it able encode to VC-1.

OK I've been having mucho problems converting my D*/R5000-HD captures to HD DVD format as described in this thread. From Joe Clark and others observations it seems that both Ulead MF5 and VS10 don't want to accept 1280x1088i files like those currently being sent to us by DirecTV. So I asked in the HDTV Recorders forum if anyone knew of a utility that would convert 1088i files to 1080i...lo and behold AVS member Balazer pointed me to his fix1088 utility which can be found here:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~balazer/atsc/

I had a R5000-HD captured ts file in 1280x1088i format of HBO-HD's recent Star Wars:Revenge of the Sith which I've been chomping at the bit to get transferred to HD DVD. I ran this file through Balazer's utility...the following is an example of what the fix1088 command line should look like when you want to do the conversion:

fix1088 -s "G:\Star Wars-ROTS for ULead.ts" 11

The 11 represents the video PID for the file...leave off the "-s" if you don't mind having the converted 1080i file overwrite the old 1088i file

So I loaded the newly converted 1080i file into VS10 (after editing with Womble MPEG-VCR) and voila! it immediately began doing the HD DVD folder conversion without insisting on reencoding (took about 10 minutes for the roughly 8 GB file). Previously if I loaded a 1088i file into either MF5 or VS10 it would insist on reencoding the file even if I had checked the "do not convert MPEG compliant files" option. I then used Nero 6.4 to burn the file to a DL disk and it worked! I now have an awesome custom HD DVD of Star Wars: ROTS!

Here is a work flow of how I accomplished this project:

1) Use HDTVtoMPEG2 v 1.11.83 to remove null packets from the captured 1280x1088i file (have H2M keep the file in ts format)-for the Star Wars capture the resulting file was about 8.95 GB...just a bit too large to fit on one DL +R disk

2) Run the file resulting from step 1 through Balazer's fix1088 utility as described above.

3) Edit the resulting 1080i file in Womble MPEG-VCR v 3.14...output the files as MPEG 2 program stream (for the Star Wars example above I had to generate one file of about 8 GB and a second file of about 0.95 GB).

4) Load files into either MF5 or VS10 (I confirmed that this process works with both) and create the HD DVD folder on disk.

5) Burn the HD DVD folder to single or dual layer DVD +R disks as described earlier in this thread.

One interesting note from all of this is that my 8 GB Star Wars DL HD DVD disk 1 contained 2 hours and 3 minutes of video with some room to spare (I put the remaining 17 minutes of the film on a second single layer DVD +R disk). This would imply that the above process should yield files containing 2 hour or less movies that can be burned to one DL disk. The PQ of my Star Wars disk is fantastic, even at 1280x1080i. I guess this is an example of D*'s crappy HD-Lite policy working in our favor! :)

For those interested here's the software version/equipment I used to generate the Star Wars disk:

HP Pavilion 2.5 GHz P4
LG GSA-2164D dual layer external burner
Ulead DVD Movie Factory v 5.0.0189/VideoStudio 10 trial version
Nero v 6.6.1.4
Womble MPEG-VCR v 3.14 (12/2005)
Toshiba HD-A1 HD DVD player

Thanks again to Jacob Balazer for pointing me to his fix1088 utility...hope the above info helps some of you! :)


How exactly you use the command line :
fix1088 -s "G:\Star Wars-ROTS for ULead.ts" 11

for example should there be a " in the line, should the Star Wars-ROTS has the .ts behind it, it just won't work when I try it.

The readme file indicates fix1088 [-s] <input file name/pattern> <pid>

What is /pattern , it does not seem to have " " either, your help would be greatly appreciated

How exactly you use the command line :
fix1088 -s "G:\Star Wars-ROTS for ULead.ts" 11

for example should there be a " in the line, should the Star Wars-ROTS has the .ts behind it, it just won't work when I try it.

The readme file indicates fix1088 [-s] <input file name/pattern> <pid>

What is /pattern , it does not seem to have " " either, your help would be greatly appreciated


Yep the target directory containing your file to be converted must be enclosed within quotation marks or the file won't execute (this was stumping me too until I sent a PM to Balazer who sent me an example command line). And yes the name of the target file must be exact, so you would need to include the .ts extension following the file name.

I'm not sure what "pattern" refers to...maybe you could PM Balazer for clarification.

The 1088 fix utility is a godsend! Most of my recordings are 1920x1080, but a few older ones are 1920x1088. I haven't been able to make HD-DVDs of these ....until now. Awesome! Watching Ronin now....

Marc.

Yep the target directory containing your file to be converted must be enclosed within quotation marks or the file won't execute (this was stumping me too until I sent a PM to Balazer who sent me an example command line). And yes the name of the target file must be exact, so you would need to include the .ts extension following the file name.

I'm not sure what "pattern" refers to...maybe you could PM Balazer for clarification.

I am using sagetv to make record now a day. It assigned all the files as .mpg , they are in 1280 1088i format. Do you think fix1088 will work ? So far , I could fix alexander.ts in dos all goes well,but problem is video tool 10 is only looking for 1920 1080 and 1440 1080 , there is no option for 1280 1080, how do you set the program to recognize 1280 1080?

Hello to all,

How do you set video tool 10 to accept 1280 x 1080i video as a template so it won't recode my HDNET movies? So far I only see 1920 x 1080 and 1440 x 1080.

Or could 1280 x 1080i be a standard for toshiba HD DVD at all? I know I just burn a 1440 x 1080i from discover channel Conquistadors and that works fine.

How do you set video tool 10 to accept 1280 x 1080i video

Exactly the question I was about to ask. I've got 1280x1088 videos that I "fixed" to 1280x1080, but VS10 only has templates for 1920 and 1440, not 1280. It keeps encoding the files to one of those templates. How are you guys forcing VS10 to leave the 1280x1080 files alone?

Exactly the question I was about to ask. I've got 1280x1088 videos that I "fixed" to 1280x1080, but VS10 only has templates for 1920 and 1440, not 1280. It keeps encoding the files to one of those templates. How are you guys forcing VS10 to leave the 1280x1080 files alone?

May be the exact question should be : How do I get the r-5000 to record in 1920 x 1080i, mine is always 1280 x 1080i?

Well, not in my case. All 1080i material from D* is 1280x1088. Whatever recorder you're using is simply recording the D* stream to disc - no encoding going on. RickD somehow got VS10 to accept the 1280x1080 (fixed) stream without re-encoding. RickD?

From reading the thread it looks like a lot of folks have their HD collections in 1920 1088 but how?

From reading the thread it looks like a lot of folks have their HD collections in 1920 1088 but how?

They are recording from different sources. I get 3 different flavors of HD via D*:
1280x1088 - 1080i HDLite from D*
1280x720 - 720p from D* and from Fox/ABC OTA
1920x1080 - 1080i from NBC/CBS OTA

Folks with E* may have different flavors, as well as people using capture cards in their PC's to record OTA. Again - most recorders are writing the source stream directly to the hard drive, and different sources are providing different "flavors" of HD.

I see, so, it should be OK to author from OTA 1920 x 1080 staright into vs10, but most of us probably prefers content from D*, ShowTime HD or Discovery as such, which all are in 1280x 1088.

They are recording from different sources. I get 3 different flavors of HD via D*:
1280x1088 - 1080i HDLite from D*
1280x720 - 720p from D* and from Fox/ABC OTA
1920x1080 - 1080i from NBC/CBS OTA



To use the file directly without recode you must to patch your MPEG2 files.

I have lot of MPEG2 HD files record (since last month of 2004) from Euro1080.
The resolution is 1920x1088, to make HD DVD with its, I patch all MPEG2 header
with 1920x1080 resolution (and I change the framerate 25 to 29.97 => it work).

This patched files are accepted by MF5 and no rencoding to make HD DVD.



Golgot13
HD DVD membership

How do you guys deal with the 720P streams, MovieFactory seems to insist on scaling them to 1080 (Although very quick to drag in, ISO creation is very slow and size increases). I cant seem to make a custom profile for 720P although I thought HD DVD supports 720P sources?!?

Krobar, HD DVD supports 720P but MovieFactory does not.

I have lot of MPEG2 HD files record (since last month of 2004) from Euro1080.
The resolution is 1920x1088, to make HD DVD with its, I patch all MPEG2 header
with 1920x1080 resolution (and I change the framerate 25 to 29.97 => it work).

Golgot13, let me get this straight. You took Euro 50hz and patched it -- without re-encoding -- to US 60hz? And it works in the player?? Wow. I need to try that. What software do you use for the patching of 50->60hz?

To use the file directly without recode you must to patch your MPEG2 files.

Yes, and this is exactly what fix1088 is doing. It is simply patching the sequence headers and changing the 1088 to 1080. Now, what I'm wondering is if fix1088 also changed the 1280 to a 1920. I'm not actually using fix1088 because my streams are already in mpeg format (not ts, which fix1088 takes as input). So I've been patching the sequence header on test clips using a hex editor. But I've had no luck by simply changing the 1088 to 1080. I'll try to change the 1280 to 1440 and see if that works.

RickD: Can you check your streams after you run them through fix1088 and see what the horizontal resolution is? Does it remain 1280 or is it changed by fix1088?

Someone should try to patch a 720p stream to 1440x1080, see if you can run it through MF5/VS10. Technically HD-DVD should support 720p. We may or may not need to patch the header back to 720p before burning to disc.

See post #868 for the latest guide. It will become a sticky soon and any changes will be made there.

Joe,

nice start for a guide.

Between steps (i) and (j) you need to click the button Change MPEG Settings... and select either HD-1440 or HD-1920, depending on the resolution of your file.

Having selected the correct one, you then need to click the Change MPEG Settings... button again and select Customize...

In the following menus there are plenty of stuff you can and probably should edit. First off, Frame Type is most often Upper Field First. Under Compression I always change Audio Settings to match source's audio stream specs to make sure the audio gets copied across 1:1.

You can actually set most of these as defaults in Create Disc window's Settings and Options -> Disc Template Manager.

Joe, download the attachment in this post. The zip file contains several jpegs you might find useful.

Joe, download the attachment in this post. The zip file contains several jpegs you might find useful.

Thanks. Very helpful.

Well, not in my case. All 1080i material from D* is 1280x1088. Whatever recorder you're using is simply recording the D* stream to disc - no encoding going on. RickD somehow got VS10 to accept the 1280x1080 (fixed) stream without re-encoding. RickD?


The 1280x1088i files I run through Balazer's fix1088 utility end up as 1280x1080i (no conversion to 1920). These "fixed" 1280x1080i files are readily accepted by either MF5 or VS10 and are converted to HD DVD folders without reencoding.

I believe it had been established earlier in this thread that MF5 and VS10 accept 3 types of files:

1280x1080i
1440x1080i (HDV format)
1920x1080i

It's the 1088i streams that it does not like...

I believe it had been established earlier in this thread that MF5 and VS10 accept 3 types of files:

1280x1080i
1440x1080i (HDV format)
1920x1080i
That's odd, since VS10+'s HD DVD Project settings mention only 1440x1080 and 1920x1080. I don't have any 1280x1080 content, so can't test this. Apparently others have and it works. It's just odd that resolution is not listed by the application.

That's odd, since VS10+'s HD DVD Project settings mention only 1440x1080 and 1920x1080. I don't have any 1280x1080 content, so can't test this. Apparently others have and it works. It's just odd that resolution is not listed by the application.


I agree that it's odd and somewhat unexpected that the 1280x1080i files work. It might be that the Ulead applications only care that the horizontal resolution is 1080i (and that it not be 720p since apparently no one has gotten 720p to work with these programs)...

The 1280x1088i files I run through Balazer's fix1088 utility end up as 1280x1080i (no conversion to 1920). These "fixed" 1280x1080i files are readily accepted by either MF5 or VS10 and are converted to HD DVD folders without reencoding.

I believe it had been established earlier in this thread that MF5 and VS10 accept 3 types of files:

1280x1080i
1440x1080i (HDV format)
1920x1080i

It's the 1088i streams that it does not like...

Nope, does not work for me, I use fix1088 ends up with 1280 x 1080i vs10 still wants to convert it to either 1920 1080 or 1440 1080. Even, I check 'do not convert compatible mpeg file' option.I just bought the vs10 yesterday.

2. Ulead Video Studio 10 (or Ulead Movie Factory 5, although full 5.1 sound may be down converted to stereo).
Using MF5, I don't seem to have had the issue of 5.1 sound being downconverted, and therefore haven't bothered with VS10.

ie. Using a typical 1920x1080i mpeg2 .TS with 384kbps DD5.1 audio stream, if I ensure the "Do not convert compliant MPEG files” option is checked, the audio stream appears to be passed through untouched (at least with the half dozen or so that I have tried so far).

Apart from the fact that I clearly still have the 5.1 channel sound passed through to my receiver on playback, it is also apparent from the very quick HVDVD_TS folder creation that there is no stream conversion happening (time taken is what you would expect for a simple multi-GB file copy to the new HD-DVD folder / file structure).

Using MF5, I don't seem to have had the issue of 5.1 sound being downconverted, and therefore haven't bothered with VS10.

ie. Using a typical 1920x1080i mpeg2 .TS with 384kbps DD5.1 audio stream, if I ensure the "Do not convert compliant MPEG files” option is checked, the audio stream appears to be passed through untouched (at least with the half dozen or so that I have tried so far).

Apart from the fact that I clearly still have the 5.1 channel sound passed through to my receiver on playback, it is also apparent from the very quick HVDVD_TS folder creation that there is no stream conversion happening (time taken is what you would expect for a simple multi-GB file copy to the new HD-DVD folder / file structure).

Same for me and some others, but there are reports of consistent conversion to 2-channel. That's why I thought it best to do this with VideoStudio 10. If your version of MF5 works, then VS10 is unnecessary. If it doesn't, losing 5.1 audio is a serious issue.

I'd like to know how many of us consistently have MF5 downconvert. So far, I think it's just one person reporting this for sure. Anyone else?

I have noted that a couple of my recorded HD-DVD format discs appear to play perfectly in the Toshiba A1 from a video perspective, however when watching the entire disc there are several places where the sound drops out altogether for relatively long periods (ie. maybe 10+ seconds or more).

I am using SP/DIF optical output to my receiver.

Given that the video does not breakup, I am assuming this is not a media compatibility issue (I am using Imation DVD-R and Mitsubishi DVD+R DL). Plus I can also play a full length DVD backup via the upscaled output, with no issues whatsoever (using the same DL media).

I therefore suspect this is directly the result of issues with the captured .TS transport stream.

I have added the step of running through Mpeg2Repair, prior to the MpegVcr conversion, and have written another disc that I will try tonight (although I believe one of the titles had already been passed through Mpeg2Repair with no errors reported).

I also intend testing again tonight using the 5.1 analog outputs to my receiver, on the possibility that the issue is possibly only with the Toshiba's SP/DIF output (although this might be hopefuly thinking).

Has anyone else experienced this issue?

Are you all using 5.1 Analog output, or are you using SP/DIF?

I'd like to know how many of us consistently have MF5 downconvert. So far, I think it's just one person reporting this for sure. Anyone else?Thanks Joe.

You would think that this would only be occuring in the case where the stream is not compliant (ie. a stream conversion is required), in which case MF5 does of course only support 2 channel sound (during conversion).

However, this should be obvious, based on the observed time required to create the HD-DVD output folder!

I burned an entire collection of movies (17 in all, shaken not stirred)) that were 1280x1080i in VS 10+ over the last two weeks and had " do not convert compliant mpeg" checked, and VS 10+ did not convert them. Each movie took 10 minutes to create a HD DVD folder that I burned with Nero 7.

I agree that it's odd and somewhat unexpected that the 1280x1080i files work. It might be that the Ulead applications only care that the horizontal resolution is 1080i (and that it not be 720p since apparently no one has gotten 720p to work with these programs)...

I downloaded several 720p HD WMV clips at Microsoft site and burned them onto HDDVDs with Ulead. It played fine in A1. So I believe Ulead will accept at least some 720p files.

I downloaded several 720p HD WMV clips at Microsoft site and burned them onto HDDVDs with Ulead. It played fine in A1. So I believe Ulead will accept at least some 720p files.


Thank you, I hereby stand corrected! :)

Hi Joe,
Great guide. Don't know if you want to include variations on the theme, but if so you could mention that in some cases you can skip step 2 by renaming .m2t files to .mpg. Then MF5 offers to convert the transports stream to a program stream (that's not the exact text of the offer, but that's what it does). It does this conversion by simply remuxing, so there are none of the quality compromises of a re-encoding - you simply end up with a slightly smaller file. Of course, the resolution of the original mpeg2 transport stream has to be one of the reported ones.

Hi Joe,
Great guide. Don't know if you want to include variations on the theme, but if so you could mention that in some cases you can skip step 2 by renaming .m2t files to .mpg. Then MF5 offers to convert the transports stream to a program stream (that's not the exact text of the offer, but that's what it does). It does this conversion by simply remuxing, so there are none of the quality compromises of a re-encoding - you simply end up with a slightly smaller file. Of course, the resolution of the original mpeg2 transport stream has to be one of the reported ones.

Thanks for the input. The guide is something anyone can feel free to contribute to. I'm just delighted that this thread caught my attention. Ultimately, I hope to add screen captures for each section (thanks for the jpeg's, pteittinen). Right now, since I'm sorta busy with some home repairs, I can't add to it quite as fast as I'd like. The whole sectiion on alternate software still has to be added. Any input on that would be appreciated.

The one thing that we all need to be careful of, I think, is that guides like this sometimes assume too much and leave out steps. So, if anyone is trying to duplicate the success some of us have had and runs into trouble, let us know so we can clarify.

I have serious holes in my education about the nature of the MPEG beast, so technical clarifications are very helpful for me. I still don't know exactly why so many of the files I tried to work with early on didn't succeed, but apparently something in my system wasn't friendly to the process. When I uninstalled the old software and installed the full retail versions, things cleared up and I've had much more consistent results since then.

Seems to me a good test of whether your MF5 projects are retaining the full 5.1 audio is to create an HD DVD of the inHD test patterns (see earlier in this thread) and see if the sound emanates from the correct speakers when you play it. If you can use MF5 instead of VideoStudio 10, you can save $50 and the process is a little simpler.

I guess I'm the only one whose installation of MF5 keeps on downmixing DD5.1 tracks to DD2.0 consistently. I can't think of any other explanation except my MF5 being some sort of feature-stripped OEM version. VS10+ has no problem with copying audio straight across.

I downloaded several 720p HD WMV clips at Microsoft site and burned them onto HDDVDs with Ulead. It played fine in A1. So I believe Ulead will accept at least some 720p files.
Very interesting! And you're sure Ulead did not re-encode those WMVs into 1080i MPEG2?

Unfortunately Ulead DOES re-encode WMV Files to MPEG2, I tested it yesterday....

Fr123

yes, it sure does re-encode because Ulead only has two outputs 1440x1080 and 1920x1080. But Ulead didn't seem to spend any extra time with 720p than 1080i WMV files, both got done in a few minutes.

I finally figured out what I was doing wrong. VS10+ was re-encoding all of my 1280x1080 (fixed) streams. I was creating a new project, dropping the stream on the timeline (habit - I edit a lot of video) then choosing "Share" and "Create Disc". No matter how I changed the settings in the "Create Disc" dialog, it would always re-encode. Well, eventually I started a new project and DIDN'T place the stream on the timeline. Instead, I went directly to "Create Disc", changed the disc type to HDDVD, and THEN added the video. Viola! HDDVD folder created without re-encoding! Clearly this is important and should be made very clear in the guide that Joseph is putting together. Thanks for all the help guys - Tosh is on order and I can't wait to start playing around.

EDIT: The steps in the guide above don't seem to work for me in VS10+. Instead of using the Movie Wizard I need to go straight to "Create Disc" from the tools menu (or "Share"-> "Create Disc").

I figured out and now I love my Toshiba HD DVD, might have to put Blue ray behind and save $ 500.

The fix1088 works, make sure that you do the -s thingy, because if you don't the video stays 1088 and vs10 will recode all day. I burnt 3-4 movies last night onto 1 single DL disc as long as the movies is under 2 hours.

PS videoredo will do the same thing as womble mpeg-vcr, infact I D/L mpeg-vcr, stared at the UGI and I am clueless, what's next. I like video redo better.

In short this confirmed that vs10 will accept:

1280 x 1080i
1440 x 1080i
1920 x 1080i without recode for HD DVD authoring.

This forum and Toshiba HD DVD are really rocking.

Thank you all.

yes, it sure does re-encode because Ulead only has two outputs 1440x1080 and 1920x1080. But Ulead didn't seem to spend any extra time with 720p than 1080i WMV files, both got done in a few minutes.

One way to check if it is recoded or not just play the clip w windows media check property it will tell you that is is no longer 720p.

Seems to me a good test of whether your MF5 projects are retaining the full 5.1 audio is to create an HD DVD of the inHD test patterns (see earlier in this thread) and see if the sound emanates from the correct speakers when you play it. If you can use MF5 instead of VideoStudio 10, you can save $50 and the process is a little simpler.

I confirmed that try both MF5 and VS10 decided to pay $100 and get VS10, now all my 7.1 speakers are rocking away, and it does it painlessly. Just love it.

decided to pay $100 and get VS10

I purchased VS10+ yesterday for $80. There is a World Cup promotion on the Ulead website where you can get a 15% coupon. Click here:

Ulead World Cup Promo (http://www.ulead.com/events/worldcup_game/runme.htm)

Then click on "Play the World Cup Quiz Game". It's not really a quiz - the answers are obvious. Upon completion you'll get the 15% coupon code. Now look for the special on VS10+ - VideoStudio 10 Plus + GIF Animator 5 for $95. Apply the coupon when you checkout. Total will be around $80. This price is good for 2 more days I think.

EDIT: The steps in the guide above don't seem to work for me in VS10+. Instead of using the Movie Wizard I need to go straight to "Create Disc" from the tools menu (or "Share"-> "Create Disc").
I go straight to "Create Disc" too, skipping any Wizards. You can't trust Wizards ;)

I would give my left testicle to know how to patch my 720p MPEG2 files so that Ulead will author them! That would make Ulead as effective as DVD Studio Pro currently is for authoring :D

Where are most people getting their source files from? Has anyone been able to get hd material from an HDTivo?

thanks
michael

I would give my left testicle to know how to patch my 720p MPEG2 files so that Ulead will author them! That would make Ulead as effective as DVD Studio Pro currently is for authoring :D

I tried using DVDPatcher to do that with every combination of settings I could think of. Ulead choked every single time.

I would give my left testicle to know how to patch my 720p MPEG2 files so that Ulead will author them! That would make Ulead as effective as DVD Studio Pro currently is for authoring :D

Ok, I'm working on this. I modified the headers in a 720p file (1280x720 59.94fps) to make it look like 1080i (1280x1080 29.97fps) - don't try to watch the resulting file; it's a mess. I ran through the normal Create Disc process in VS10+ and.... IT WORKED! VS10+ created the HDDVD folder without re-encoding the video file. Now, unfortunately, I don't yet have the player to try the output on (it's coming). My guess is that we'll need to patch the headers in the EVO file back to 720p. Since 720p is part of HDDVD spec, the player shouldn't have a problem with it. If I had a player I'd try both ways (left with 1080i headers, patched back to 720p). Biggest issue right now is that there isn't a tool that I can find to patch these headers easily either way - so I'm in the process of developing one. I'll keep you posted...

Oh, and Grandmaster, thanks for the offer, but you can keep your testicle even if we do get this working.