Samsung DVD-HD960 and DVD-HD1080 1080p players [Text View]

Mofongo

05-02-06, 07:36 PM

Hi everyone,

I am starting this thread for anyone interested in communicating about the upcoming 1080p capable upconverting players being released by Samsung: the DVD-HD960 and DVD-HD1080. According to Samsung press releases, both players will use Faroudja DCDi and will output 1080p over HDMI (but not component).

Although Samsung has the HD960 on their website now (specs, product brochure, and manual), I cannot find anyone who has it in stock, yet. Eventually (hopefully) we can use this thread to evaluate these players. For the time being, I am very interested in discussing the following three topics:

DVD-HD960: when can I buy one and where??

Many online vendors (Amazon, Crutchfield, ABT) are clearly expecting to get the unit in sometime, but none give a date. Samsung said it would be availible in "mid April". By my recollection, May comes after April, but I have yet to see it in stock anywhere. Early last week while Googling on "DVD-HD960" I stumbled across a page on Best Buy's website that gave a complete description of the unit (complete with picture) for a price of $179.99 and a "buy now" button (I did not click it...DOH!) saying "usually ships in 1-2 weeks". The next day, the page was no longer accessible. My hope is that Best Buy will carry this unit and therefore constructed the webpage for it and just accidentally left it visible to the outside world for a day. Asking Best Buy sales people if they will be getting it in is an exercise in futility. I have not asked anyone at Circuit City. They may be more likely to carry it as they seem to have a slightly better selection of quality DVD players. I would be very interested if anyone else has some hard data on when and where the HD960 can be purchased.

Having watched the DVD-HD860 come out, it looks like the big box stores (BB, CC) got it first with the online retailers getting them much later and not in big quantities (Amazon, for example, still lists the HD860 as "not released yet" even though my local BB and CC have had them since the end of February). So my guess is that if BB or CC carry it, then they will get it first. If not, then hopefully online stores will get them soon.

Differences between the DVD-HD960 and DVD-HD1080

The only pittance of information regarding the DVD-HD1080 is the original Samsung press release. For sure, the HD1080 will be a universal player and have analog outputs for SACD/DVD-A while the HD960 will not. However, will there be any difference at all in video quality? I have no idea. They both use Faroudja DCDi. However, the difference in price ($180 vs. $250) seems a bit stiff for just SACD/DVD-A capability. Also, there are enigmatic lines in the press release: they say the HD960 will offer "near HD upconversion to 1080p resolution," while later they say the HD1080 will offer "true-HD 1080p progressive output". What's the difference between "near-HD" and "true-HD"?? Is this just a typo? The full Samsung press release can be found by Google-ing "DVD-HD960" and clicking on the first hit (sorry...can't post URLs yet) :)

Looking at the HD960 manual, the unit offers a decent array of picture quality adjustments common to most Faroudja-based players. I did notice that there does not seem to be a way to turn off the Faroudja cross-color suppression, which is disappointing because many say that this feature is not always desirable. On the plus side, it will (hooray!) support user firmware updates (performed by downloading from Samsung and burning to CD).

Do I really need 1080p anyway?

I have a Westinghouse lvm-37w1 LCD which has 1080p resolution and accepts 1080p input via DVI (and VGA). Consequently, I am very interested in getting an upconverting DVD player that does provide 1080 lines of resolution. The 37w1 has a semi-decent deinterlacer, although it is not perfect. 1080i broadcasts, for example, show alot of blurring during movement. However, for movie sources that are only 24 fps, you can in theory reconstruct a perfect progressive image from the two halves of the interlaced frame. My 37w1 has an inverse 3:2 pulldown which is supposed to accomplish this. This weekend, I watched an HD-DVD demo setup at Best Buy with the Toshiba HD-DVD player and the lvm-42w2 1080p display and the result was awesome. Even though the Toshiba was outputting 1080i, the 42w2 (which has the same deinterlacing technology as the 37w1) was able to flawlessly reconstruct the progressive frames and display them accordingly. There were absolutely no interlacing artifacts at all. Consequently, does it really matter that the DVD player is outputting 1080p vs 1080i? For a DVD of a broadcast source, probably. But for movies, it might not matter at all. In any case, I am not sure either way and would appreciate any opinions anyone has.

Thanks alot everybody! Hopefully lots of us will find this thread useful in the coming weeks!

Mofongo

BillP

05-03-06, 11:19 AM

Why not get the Toshiba HD-DVD player, or wait for BR? These are only upscaling players.

Jeffhdz

05-03-06, 12:35 PM

The Samsung HD960 brochure at www.samsung.com/Products/DVDPlayer/Hi_DefConversionDVDPlayers/files/dvdhd960_final.pdf always mentions 1080p but whenever HDMI is mentioned, it says only 720p/1080i. Perhaps the HD960 does not output 1080p via HDMI? Excerpts from the brochure:

HDMI (High Definition Multimedia Interface) transfers hi-definition
(1080i/720p) video and audio from your DVD to your TV,

Samsung’s DVD Players up-convert the resolution of ordinary DVDs to
1080p/1080i/720p High-definition—

Neuromancer

05-03-06, 01:27 PM

Why not get the Toshiba HD-DVD player, or wait for BR? These are only upscaling players.

The DVD-HD960 has a MSRP of 179.99, which is far bellow the 499.99 MSRP of the Toshiba HD-A1. Yes, the Toshiba is a "better" deal when you consider HD-DVD playback capability, but for a consumer on a budget, or on the fense about the current format war, they may feel better spending less money and using the difference as coinage for a future purchase.

Additionally, the Toshiba HD-A1 does not support DivX, which is important for some users.

I too would would like to know how they are claiming 1080p support, since the HDMI port (easy) only supports 1080i. Component based 1080p support is a bear to accomplish, and would be very backwards for Samsung to support (HDCP compliance would be the main reason why).

Mofongo

05-03-06, 03:25 PM

I believe that the bit in the HD960 product literature that talks about HDMI only doing 720p/1080i is a typo...it should also say 1080p. If you look in the manual (on page 53), it says in at least two places that the HDMI connection does in fact do 1080p. In fact, this is the only connection that does, as the component only outputs up to 1080i. The mistake in the product flyer is a major boo-boo on Samsung's part. Let's hope that mistakes like this are limited to their documentation group and not product development.

Regarding why someone would want an upconverting DVD player in the first place: Some TVs have good de-interlacers/upconverters, others do not. Mine has an OK one but not a great one. In most cases, I definitely get a better picture out of an upconverting DVD player than letting the TV convert it. This is even true for my cable box: I get the best picture from an SD channel by letting my Motorola DVR (from Comcast) upconvert to 1080i rather than having the TV do it. I doubt that the upconverting technology in my DVR is all that sophisticated, but for some reason it seems to do a better job.

To make matters more complicated, which upconverting solution is better can also depend on the movie itself. The goal here is to get a DVD player that does upconversion better than your TV most of the time. This gives you options for getting the best picture.

As far as getting the Toshiba HD-DVD player, there are a lot of reasons not to get it for playing SD DVDs right now (even aside from the price tag). Just see the Secrets Benchmark Review on it. Basically, if you really want to watch HD-DVDs, then get it. But if you plan on playing your current DVDs on it (and I for one will likely be watching SD DVDs for several more years), think again.

Mofongo

kktx

05-04-06, 02:46 AM

I'm in the same boat and will be going with a cheap but decent player as a bridge until better HD-DVD players come along (in terms of interface and usability, not PQ, which seems to be excellent). Buying the Toshiba now sounds like signing up to be a beta tester, except you pay full price for the experience. I'm leaning to the Sony NS75, which means I'll have to keep an old SACD capable unit in the AV stack to handle those duties.

jtundrea

05-04-06, 05:52 PM

I'm considering waiting for the Samsung DVD-HD960 upscaler since it uses the same Faroudja chip as the Oppo OPDV971H however I do not know what Samsung is using for decoding. Oppo uses the MediaTek chip for decoding and have done a good job in implementing both with their software to produce a quality DVD player at $199. My main interest in the HD960 is the 1080p output via HDMI since I also plan to purchase a Westinghouse LVM-42w2 LCD 42" monitor with 1080p HDMI input. Id rather not deinterlace 1080i from an Oppo to a Westy at 1080p.

In addition , although the Westy has 2 - DVI inputs and one HDMI input, which can accomidate the Oppo DVI output (Oppo also provides a DVI to HDMI cord) I'm not sure if the picture quality would be the same since DVI passes through at 8 bit and HDMI at 10bit. I'm not sure if the Westy uses the 10bit Faroudja chip or 8 bit.

75% of what I would need the DVD is to play my newer movie collection for a couple of years until one of the HD formats wins and prices come down for quality deinterlcing and upscaling next gen DVD players which can output 1080p formated movies with Dolby True HD sound.

Mofongo

05-04-06, 07:53 PM

Yeah, I wish I knew what decoder the HD960 used (and if it was different than the HD1080). For me, the Oppo is out because I really want an equivalent to the EZ-View feature of Samsung's players to expand a 2.39:1 movie to fill the whole vertical range of the film. I have found on my lvm-37w1 the black level is about average for LCD TVs, meaning that there is a little light leakage resulting in a flat-black look rather than a total black. I do not notice this except for when I am watching 2.39:1 movies that have black bars on the top and bottom. I see that the bars are not perfectly black, and that causes me to notice that the blacks in the movie are not either. The lvm-37w1 does not have an option to expand the image while maintaining aspect ratio, so I am looking for a DVD player that does.

Although the Oppo does have a 1.3 zoom (which is about the right factor to "convert" 2.39:1 to 16:9), the zoom bypasses the DCDi chip, thus defeating the purpose of buying the fancy upconverting player to begin with. If you are sensitive to black levels, this may be a concern for you.

An LCD monitor/TV cannot reproduce more than 8-bit color anyway, so it really does not matter if you feed it 8-bit or 10-bit. What I would worry more about is that the DVD-HD850, for example, had a bug where it would pass the incorrect RGB levels while talking to a DVI device. They were correct for HDMI, however. Very strange. I think that since most displays have HDMI and not DVI these days that manufacturers are getting lax at testing compatability with DVI. (Another example: at least two people on one of the Sony threads have reported problems getting the DVP-NC85H to talk to their Westinghouse TVs using the Westinghouse's DVI inputs). At least with the Oppo, you know that it will work with your DVI inputs.

Although your future 42w2 has 1080p capable inputs, it also does a very good job at inverse 3:2 pulldown. So if you feed it 1080i frames that come from a 24fps movie source, it should reconstruct the progressive image perfectly (I say "should" because I have only tested this personally with the Toshiba HD-DVD player, for which it does an excellent job, but not an SD DVD player).

Mofongo

RTK

05-08-06, 12:58 AM

I sent an email to contact regarding availability of the HD960, hopefully I'll hear something this week. With a new Samsung DLP on the way, the 960 looks like a good option.

Tarheel72

05-11-06, 10:17 PM

RTK, did you get any response to the email? I still can not find it listed with any retailers.

And I guess the big question for me is the HD-960 or the current version of the Oppo? I will be using the player exclusively for movies, not DVD-A. Given that, what's the opinions? I know that the Oppo puts out a terrific picture, but there are a few bugs, such as the problem with intended subtitles. With the HD-960 I get the same video processor as the Oppo, but I also pick up HDMI and up 1080p. Comments/opinons welcomed.

chaos8517

05-12-06, 08:05 AM

Tarheel72

05-12-06, 09:04 AM

From what I understand the 960 was supposed to be "released" this week or next. Who knows when you'll actually be able to get one/read a review of one. I have ordered one of the HLS samsung sets through the TVA Powerbuy and am considering pre-ordering an hd960 as well...

I am in the same position. Was planning on trading in my ancient Sony for an Oppo, but now I am not so sure. The HD-960 might be the better way to go.

chaos8517

05-12-06, 09:26 AM

I'm thinking the samsung might be better, as it seems it is geared for these tvs (1080p output, same color/style), and it uses the same chip as the oppo.. but has HDMI.

Tarheel72

05-12-06, 10:12 AM

I will not be using it for audio, only movies, so I think it might be a better deal for me. I like that EZ screen feature on the remote and they are both upgradeable via downloading firmware from the web. I expect it will have a few bugs and I know the Oppo customer support is flawless, but I still think I would seriously consider the Samsung,,,,,,,if it is available.

zoro

05-12-06, 12:21 PM

BTW!! Oppo will be releasing 1080i player with HDMI( no DCDI), but no 1080P player.confirmed.

Any good deals on samsungs??

chaos8517

05-12-06, 03:07 PM

Stephanie @ TVA said they expect the players in "any day now." I went ahead and pre-ordered one. Hopefully it will arrive around when my TV does.

zoro

05-12-06, 03:49 PM

Is there 960 power buy too?

teddertots

05-12-06, 05:20 PM

Is there 960 power buy too?

Unfortunately there's no discount on the 960. I still went ahead and ordered one to go with my 6187. Hoping they both ship next week!

jhanson123

05-13-06, 08:35 AM

PooperScooper

05-13-06, 08:40 AM

Thoughts? What did you use to calibrate?

larry

jhanson123

05-13-06, 09:26 AM

Nothing, I was simply going by eye. I have no setup disc (ie Avia) yet. I just picked up my plasma a couple days ago. Can you recommend a good calibration disc?

jpaul

05-13-06, 11:08 AM

Pngpong

05-13-06, 12:41 PM

I just checked Amazon and the HD-DVD960 is now in stock.

Mofongo

05-13-06, 01:02 PM

Yesterday, I just bought a Samsung DVD-HD860. I hooked it up to my new Samsung HP-S5053 last night via HDMI. I set the output resolution to 720p.

Needless to say, I was not impressed. The picture looked grainy to me. I was using "The Incredibles" as my reference disc. At a hundred bucks, I'm assuming that the DVD player just isn't getting it done. I could find little reference to it's specs.

Thoughts?

The HD860 does not have a noise suppression setting, but it does have a sharpness setting. Did you try adjusting the sharpness to a lower value? Usually, sharpness should be set quite low. Depending on the exact filter they use, the sharpness can end up accentuating noise. This might not do it, but it's worth a shot.

From the impressions that I have read on this site, it seems like the Panasonic S52S ($100) and the Sony DVP-NS75H ($130) offer superior image quality to the HD860 for roughly the same price. The Panasonic certainly has a lot more settings to fiddle with (like noise reduction). However, you give up the EZ-View feature of the Samsung.

Mofongo

Mofongo

05-13-06, 01:33 PM

Its important to note that the the implementation of both the decoding chip and the deinterlacing/scaling chip are important. The Oppo is tried and true in this regard, and seems committed to updating their product via firmware to fix bugs and even implement new features, along with exposing features of the underlying hardware. I don't have a DVD player yet (just ordered the Westy 37w3), but I'm a little worried about the new (untested) Samsung player. Just my two cents...

It is true that the last few upscaling players from Samsung have not been fantastic. The last of their players to use Faroudja DCDi (the DVD-HD941) was at least semi-decent, although it did suffer from an inferior decoder, the Zoran Vaddis 778. Samsung has been using this decoder (which is also an upscaler) for years, for the DVD-HD941, DVD-HD850 and DVD-HD950. Looking at the manuals for all three of these players, the HD941 has no picture adjustment settings, while the HD850, HD950 and HD860 all have exactly the same ones (Brightness, Sharpness, Color Saturation), which leads me to thing that maybe the DVD-HD860 has the 778 as well (probably as both decoder and deinterlacer).

We can only hope that they might get it right this time. The DVD-HD960 does, at least, have an adjustable noise reduction filter (as well as many other adjustments common to Faroudja DCDi players). I would think that the noise reduction would be a property of the decoder and not the deinteracer (but I am not positive). If so, this may indicate that they finally got a decent decoder. For my sake, I hope they did because I really like their EZ-View feature.

Time will tell. But, yes, given Samsung's current track record, we should probably adopt a strategy of "guilty until proven innocent".

Mofongo

paesan

05-13-06, 06:55 PM

I am getting the sammy 6187 and am looking for a new dvd player. Should I get an el cheapo hdmi dvd player and let the sammy do the upconversion or go for the sammy 960 dvd player.

pbicich

05-13-06, 07:33 PM

Anyone who's interested the Samsung HD-960, Electronics Expresss had 9 (now 8) a couple of minutes ago for a decent $$.

RTK

05-14-06, 01:49 AM

After considering my options, I went ahead and pre-ordered a 960 from TVA. It looks good on paper but if its a dog, I've got 30 days to find out.

teddyc23

05-14-06, 05:03 AM

Mofongo, have you had a chance to try the EZ-Zoom yet? I was curious how it worked on the samsungs. Thanks

Teddy

IceMan5043

05-14-06, 06:12 AM

jhanson123

05-14-06, 09:19 AM

The HD860 does not have a noise suppression setting, but it does have a sharpness setting. Did you try adjusting the sharpness to a lower value? Usually, sharpness should be set quite low. Depending on the exact filter they use, the sharpness can end up accentuating noise. This might not do it, but it's worth a shot.

From the impressions that I have read on this site, it seems like the Panasonic S52S ($100) and the Sony DVP-NS75H ($130) offer superior image quality to the HD860 for roughly the same price. The Panasonic certainly has a lot more settings to fiddle with (like noise reduction). However, you give up the EZ-View feature of the Samsung.

Mofongo

All three adjustments mentioned were left at their default setting, which is 3 (I believe on a 1-5 scale). I'll try dialing the sharpness back to a lower value. Either way, I'm going to step up to a more "feature rich" DVD player. I spent a ton on the tv, why not spend a few bucks to get a high quality feed going into it. Can you recommend a player sub $250ish? I assume the recommendations made above are based on the Sammy 860 price point?

Mofongo

05-14-06, 08:39 PM

They are sort of based on the HD860 price point but I am not sure if more expensive players actually offer anything better in terms of picture quality. People seem pretty happy with the S52S and the NS75H, although I have not seen a definitive review on these models since they are so new. The Oppo is probably the only other serious contender at any price <~ $250.

Other than the Oppo, it seems like the only reason to go up in price beyond $150 is if you want SACD/DVD-A, or if you want to get a high-end brand like a Denon or Onkyo.

Mofongo

Mofongo

05-14-06, 09:04 PM

Is this the ONLY 1080p upconverting DVD player out as of right now? I'm not interested in HD-DVD or Bluray BTW and have just bought a Sammy HLS-6187W set that takes 1080p. I'm brand new to the upconverting DVD player scene and would like to know what the best player is that does 1080p with 7.1 (or 5.1) digital sound. Thanks!

Other than the NeoDigits Helios HVD2085, this is the only player less than $1500 right now that will do 1080p. The HVD2085 goes for about $200, but has quite a number of quirks, one of them being bad or nonexistant 2:3 pulldown, which is pretty important if you want to watch DVDs mastered from film. There are about 8000 reviews on this model (just Google it), and yet I can find not a single one that actually evaluates the image on a 1080p display! The all say "Gee, the image looks comparable to my [insert name of a mainstream upconverting DVD player here] on my 720p display." Duh!

I am getting the sammy 6187 and am looking for a new dvd player. Should I get an el cheapo hdmi dvd player and let the sammy do the upconversion or go for the sammy 960 dvd player.

If you are spending that much money on a cutting-edge display, I think everyone would agree that you should invest in some kind of quality DVD player...especially since quality DVD players can be had for relatively cheap these days.

One thing to keep in mind is that the strict HDMI standard does not permit 480i (which is what the DVD is encoded in). Therefore, your DVD player has to do some amount of image processing no matter what you output to your TV. In addition to doing the de-interlacing and/or upscaling well, a good DVD player will have options for things like 10-bit output (if I remember correctly, the 6187 has 10-bit processing, right?), noise reduction filters, better 3:2 pulldown detection, etc. Since a player that will output a quality HDMI signal is only $100->$150 these days, you should at a minimum invest in one of those.

Now does the HD960 truly does offer anything better than cheaper yet good-quality models by Sony, Panasonic, and LG that are all available right now from your local big box store? That, my friends, is the question. I honestly don't know, which is why I created this thread. :) Hopefully within a week or so some people will have gotten the DVD-HD960 with their new Samsung DLP TVs and will be able to tell us what they think.

Mofongo

jonathanjj

05-14-06, 11:05 PM

i just spotted the 960 in stock on amazon. get em while theyre hot

Rayman2k2

05-15-06, 12:04 AM

i work at Magnolia HT inside a Best Buy store - we have the SKU's for both of these DVD players but no units in stock

when we get SKU's, it generally means we will get the product anytime between now and four weeks from now - six weeks at the latest.

P.S. the 'now and four weeks from now' figure is from past experiences, not actual deadlines set by best buy

Mofongo

05-15-06, 01:06 AM

Thanks, Rayman!

That is good news. I am hoping that Best Buy will carry this because I have $55 in Best Buy rewards that I need to spend before July. I went into another Best Buy today and tried to get someone to look it up and see if it was in the computer, but they just rattle of some spiel about "That's too high end for us...I don't think we'll ever carry that." Then how come I saw it on their website 2 weeks ago? Seems stupid to make a webpage for a product you will never sell. I also stopped by Circuit City today and they at least looked it up, but it was not in their computer system.

I seems silly for BB and CC not to carry the HD960. It would be the perfect thing to sell someone who just bought a 1080p DLP or SXRD display.

Mofongo

PooperScooper

05-15-06, 07:05 AM

One thing to keep in mind is that the strict HDMI standard does not permit 480i (which is what the DVD is encoded in). Please go back and do a little digging and you'll see that this statement is completely false. Replace HDMI with DVI and you'll be on to something. :)

larry

Mofongo

05-15-06, 11:55 AM

PooperScooper

05-15-06, 01:41 PM

Yeah, yeah...do what I mean, not what I say. :)

In any case, most DVD players (either DVI or HDMI) will not do 480i over their digital output interface, whichever that may be. So if you really want this, you should be careful to buy one that does.

Interestingly enough, my TV does accept 480i over its DVI inputs.

Mofongo Oh, yes, so does mine and I had a cable box output 480i via DVI output. :) At least the HDMI spec describes how 480i his handled where the DVI spec ignored it (probably because DVI was "invented" for use with PCs).

larry

Huey

05-15-06, 08:10 PM

http://im1.onecall.com/Image_Products/Samsung/DVD-HD960_om.pdf is the manual in pdf format

http://im1.onecall.com/Image_Products/Samsung/DVD-HD960.pdf is the spec. sheet confirming 480p/720p/1080i/1080p via HDMI with DivX, DCDi (FLI 2310) deinterlacing and scaling.

http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?sHist=12-53%2c6-419%2c4-2004%2410104&menu=true&id=31476 is OneCall (good, reliable site to buy) for a good price with 3-Day Fedex shipping included (Electronic Express charges $20 shipping which means slower shipping and more than OneCall).

jonathanjj

05-15-06, 10:13 PM

ive got a 6187 and hd960 on the way. ill keep you guys posted :)

Mofongo

05-16-06, 06:02 PM

Great! We will be anxious to hear your impressions of it when you get it.

Mofongo

zoro

05-16-06, 07:20 PM

BTW!! Does 960 has SACD V2? like Changer 1080P version?

araknis

05-16-06, 11:06 PM

will this DVD player play PAL formatted DVDs? If not, what's the next best player to get? Oppo?

hdspringer98

05-17-06, 09:02 AM

Tarheel72

05-17-06, 12:42 PM

I also have the new HLS5687w on order and plan to use the HD960 with it, although I do not have any DVD's that I have made myself as of yet. So I am very interested in how the units interface together and what kind of picture you get from the DVD. Do you intend to use a calibration disc with the DVD player? Please post your results, and let us know how everything goes for you, as I think there are many others who intend to pair the HD960 up with the HLS series. I was on the Oppo bandwagon until I saw the Samsung 1080p upconverting capabilities using the same DCDi chip as the Oppo, so I anxiously await your report.

Mofongo

05-17-06, 01:04 PM

My dvd-hd960 will be arriving on Friday this week. Ordered from electronics express via amazon and got it for much less than EE's webiste. Looking forward to seeing if it will play my burnt dvd's and burnt DVD+R DL's w/o issues. I've had issues with several newer models various brands (Sony, Denon, LG) not playing dvd's I burnt a year ago eventhough they play on my older dvd players. I presently have the toshiba upscaling player, bought 2 weeks ago for $100 at BB but the PQ sucks on it. Watching on my new HL-S5687W sammy.

Congrats on the new TV! If you don't mind me asking, how did you get the hd960 cheaper through Amazon's website than through Electronics Express? (Cheaper shipping?). Also, do you get the same 30 money-back guarentee if you buy through Amazon?

My cheapo Philips DVP-642 actually plays all of my home-burned DVD+R DLs without problems (burnt on an LG GSA-4166B drive). Interestingly, the $400 DVD-burner drive in my newer $3000 Thinkpad will *not* play these DVDs (but my wife's 6-months-older $1000 laptop will play them no problemo). Go figure.

Mofongo

Mofongo

05-17-06, 01:11 PM

Last night just for kicks I decided to Google "dvd-hd960" again to see what popped up. Lo and behold, Google found another hit on Best Buy's website. When I clicked on the link, BB's site was down for maintainance. However, the cached copy showed the HD960 being listed on the DVD players page with all the rest of their players. Status was "backordered: usually ships in 1 to 2 weeks." In-store status was "not available".

Today you can still view the cached copy on Google (just search on "dvd-hd960 bestbuy"), but it's gone from their page again. They must have some sweeper that goes through during maintainance and hides pages for items that have not yet arrived. Still, it looks hopeful that they will get it (someday).

Mofongo

hdspringer98

05-17-06, 01:15 PM

Do you intend to use a calibration disc with the DVD player?

Yes, I have the VE disc, already calibrated to the Toshiba DVD player plus "The Incredibles" has a nice advanced THX calibration tool as well. What I found is the Toshiba upconvert DVD player failed to properly display blacks and whites using the THX optimizer advanced tool. Hence the purchase of the Sammy.

If you don't mind me asking, how did you get the hd960 cheaper through Amazon's website than through Electronics Express? Amazon has it listed for less than $179, same $20 shipping.

Do you get the same 30 money-back guarentee if you buy through Amazon?
The return policy from EE is what applies.

I guess amazon and EE have a deal worked out.

I'll post my results on calibrations and compatibility with DVD-R and DVD+R DL burnt discs Friday evening.

paesan

05-17-06, 04:59 PM

I ordered the 960 same way thru amazon via EE. Yes, if you follow the link to amazon it is cheaper but same shipping cost. They are the only ones that have it. My 6187 arrives tomorrow and I got my cox motorola dvr today. Looks like a busy weekend and I will be back with some feedback.

arto2000

05-17-06, 06:05 PM

Does anyone at what resolution it will display Jpeg files on HD TV.
I have an Oppo now and it is awsome for DVDs but it doesn't display photos well on my 1080p HP Tv set.
Thanks,

NefariousOne

05-18-06, 09:37 AM

Those of you that are having problems with your burned dvd's, I would suggest checking the type of media that you are using for these backups. I have well over 1000+ backups, and my brand of choice are the dyes by Taiyo Yuden +R's (these are made in Japan and you really dont get much better than these discs). You can buy this dye (Non Taiyo branded) at your local BB or CC... you can look for the Sony +R's (you MUST make sure it has a white OCTAGONAL spacer on top or its not the Made in Japan disc - also look for the Made In Japan label) or you can look for the Fuji +R's. If you check the media id of these discs.. they will show up exactly the same as the Taiyos (YUDEN00T02). The Sony and the Fugi go on sale just about EVERY week locally; the Taiyo brand you must order online.. and is much more expensive.

You could also use the Verbatim +R's - these are the ONLY made in Taiwan media that I use.

For compatibility issues.. you could booktype your +R media to ROM. Some DVD players are picky... using the ROM setting pretty much fixes that.

Some DVD players are just touchy in general. I have some backups that work fine in one and just get a skipping disc in another. I have one player thats less than a year old... that just does not seem to like playing backups like it used it - then again, its just some cheapo dvd player.

Im looking forward to seeing the compatibily of the +R and ROM media with this new Samsung

Mofongo

05-18-06, 12:45 PM

NefariousOne

05-18-06, 01:02 PM

I have read the Taiyo Yudens are quite good, but I have always bought Verbatims because the brands that sell the Yudens (Sony, Fuji) do not sell them exclusively. Verbatim is the only brand that sells from a unique supplier (in this case, Mitsubishi Chemical Corp...since Mitsubishi owns Verbatim), so at least I know exactly what I am getting.

Is there any way you can tell if a Fuji DVD pack are Taiyo Yudens and not RiData before you buy them?

Also, do you know if any brand sells Taiyo Yuden dual layer DVDs (if they exist)? Fuji seem to be exclusively RiData as far as I can tell.

Mofongo

Verbatims are the only Taiwan media that I would purchase. I have TONS of movies backedup on the Verb 16x +R's and have NEVER had any issuses with them. Verbs = Great Taiwan media (oxymoron hahaha)

On the Fugi DVD +rs' you MUST MUST MUST look on the back and make sure you can find the "Made in Japan" or even the "Fabrique a Japan" somewhere on the box. So long as they are the Japan box.. they will be the Taiyo media id.

The Taiyo branded does not yet come in DL - I cant wait untill they do. They JUST recently started to do the 16x Taiyos (Yuden000-T03-000 )

Again the KEY item to look for is the Made In Japan AND they MUST be the +R media (or if your getting the Sony +R also look for the white octagonal spacer)

Edit: I lied.. you can also get the SONY -R that are the rebadged Taiyos... but again they STILL MUST be made in Japan. The only media I use are +R's so I dont even pay attention to the Dash media

BoulderGeek

05-18-06, 04:10 PM

iqwertyi

05-18-06, 06:15 PM

Eek, I just bought the Samsung 860 and a Belkin HDMI-HDMI cable from BB for ~$180.

Should I return this unused and get the Oppo which includes cable for $199?

My LCD isn't here yet, s I can't test it today. But to test it I have to bust out the HDMI cable.

Has anyone compared the 860 and the Oppo side by side?

whether you return the 860 or not.
You should return that cable and order one from Monoprice.
Quality is great and you can get a 3' one for under $6.
unless of course you're goint to get the Oppo or some other player that comes with a cable.

Mofongo

05-18-06, 06:26 PM

TV Authority's website now lists the DVD-HD960 in stock for $169. RTK and Chaos8517, didn't you say you preordered from TVA?

They do not have the same 30 money-back guarentee on it that Electronic Express does, however.

Mofongo

chaos8517

05-18-06, 06:46 PM

just got off the phone with Nicole; Its on its way.

Now I just need to get that TV shipped :)

MoneyMark

05-18-06, 07:15 PM

Tarheel72

05-18-06, 07:24 PM

Hope you can get it fixed to your satisfaction as that is exactly the set up that I intended to use. My back up is an Oppo.

MoneyMark

05-18-06, 08:01 PM

Don't they use the same DCDi chip?

jtundrea

05-18-06, 08:19 PM

Yes they do but the Oppo uses the MediaTEk Decoder for MPEG2 and I think the HD960 uses the Zoran decoder.

How does it look if you change the resolution on the DVD and TV to 720p and 1080i? Any better then on component?

chaos8517

05-18-06, 08:35 PM

I received my hd960 from EE today. I had already ordered HDMI cables from monoprice, but the unit does come with a HDMI cable already. No loss, sure it will come in handy some day.

I hooked the unit up to my new HL-S5687W and sadly I am not that impressed. Perhaps I have some settings wrong (yes it is on 1080p), but no matter what I do, I see more noise in the picture than when viewing through the component out. Maybe the image is just softer on the components, I don't know.

I am new to upscaling, so I am not sure what to expect. I do wonder however what upscaler the tv is using and if it is really worth the hassle. Why would samsung make a dvd player that matches their new dlp line and have it not perform well?

Any advice or ideas is appreciated.

Mark,

The reason that I pre-ordered the player was that I figured samsung would at least make a player that was well "suited" for its own televisions. I would turn off all of samsung's "picture enhancement" settings and start at 480p and work my way up.. try all the settings and combinations... i really hope samsung didn't put out a player that didn't look good with their own TV's....

chaos8517

05-18-06, 08:44 PM

Also, have you calibrated your display with DVE or Avia?

Tarheel72

05-18-06, 09:32 PM

I may be crazy but it seems to me that you would want to use the DVD player on 1080p, the native resolution of the TV, and send the signal via HDMI. That combination should give you the absolute best picture available. What am I missing here?

MoneyMark

05-18-06, 09:43 PM

Working with avia now and my spyder2 pro. I will post back with the results once I am complete, tonight.

Mofongo

05-18-06, 11:01 PM

The manual says that there is a noise reduction setting in the HDMI menu. Have you tried that?

Regarding the decoder, nobody knows what's in the HD960. Hopefully, it's not the same Zoran as previous models. That fact that there is a noise reduction setting seems to suggest that the decoder is different.

Mofongo

MoneyMark

05-18-06, 11:33 PM

I re-ran avia for the new hd960. The results show promise. It looks like the sharpness and contrast settings from the unit were causing the majority of issues I saw.

I set the sharpness to level 1 (the lowest setting) since any other setting was very harsh.

With some work, it looks like I will be happy with this unit after all.

RTK

05-19-06, 01:08 AM

I received a call from TVA today that my HD960 should ship out next week and be delivered the following week.

Chris Gerhard

05-19-06, 08:44 AM

Is there any release date for the HD1080? I am happy with my HD950 and HD841 and don't need another universal player but this new one might be the best inexpensive universal player on the market.

Chris

jtundrea

05-19-06, 09:26 AM

If you google HD JPEG, Zoran's Vaddis chip comes up. Media Tek decoder cannot display HD JPEG. Since the Vaddis chip is a media processor they might be using the Activa 100 as the decoder. The only DVD's in the market I've seen that claim to display HD jpegs are the samsung 850 (uses Vaddis chip), 950 (uses Vaddis chip) , 960 and 1080. They might all use the same decoder.

If you open up the DVD player you would see the Faroudja FLI-2310 chip and the mystery Decoder.

If you have a HDMI you purchased seperately you might want to use that one instead of the one given by Samsung to see if there is a difference.

Mofongo

05-19-06, 12:12 PM

Interesting that Zoran's website has info on the the Vaddis 888 but no previous Vaddis models. The 888 looks like a pretty advanced chip, actually, but given its capabilities, it kinda seems like overkill for the HD860, which makes me think (if it has a Zoran chip) it probably still has a 700 series decoder. The Vaddis 888 has adjustable gamma correction, which neither the HD860 nor HD960 have, but it does not have adjustable noise filtering, which the HD960 does have. So I dunno...seems inconclusive.

The Activa series is for DVD recorders.

Regarding the DVD-HD1080, the supposed release date was "early May". Just like the HD960 was "mid April". Ha Ha. The HD960's manual appeared on Samsung's website on April 20th, but the first day somebody actually got their hands on it was yesterday...nearly one month later. Since the HD1080's manual is not out yet, we probably have at least a month to wait.

I wish I could at least see than HD1080 manual because I want to see if there is any indication if the video processing is any better, or whether it's exactly the same as the HD960.

Mofongo

Mofongo

05-19-06, 01:32 PM

I did some more digging and found the spec sheet for the Vaddis 7 series, which is what the HD850/HD950 (among others) used. It has the exact same adjustable picture settings as the 888: gamma correction, sharpness and brightness. So their goes my theory :eek:. Both the 7 and 8 say something about "proprietary video post processing filters".

The brand new LG DN191H upscaling player (availible at Best Buy) uses the Vadis 888. Check out the thread here. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=678191) I can't get a #$!@ manual off of their website to look at the features, though. It is tempting to go down to BB and buy one just to see how it performs. I would be really curious about this vs. the HD960.

Mofongo

Mofongo

05-19-06, 02:17 PM

Wow...the new Arcam DV137, costing over $2000, uses the Zoran Vaddis 888 as its decoder (with a different scaler). Must be pretty decent.

Anyone care to open up their DVD-HD960 and look?? :D

Picture of the Vaddis 888 chip is availible in the Vaddis product brief. (http://www.zoran.com/IMG/pdf/Vaddis8.pdf)

OK...it's really time for me to stop surfing and get back to work...

Mofongo

tuccillo

05-19-06, 03:53 PM

Assuming your HDTV has a reasonable scaler/deinterlacer, what value does an upconverting DVD player add? Cant you just feed the HDTV a 480i signal from a DVD player and let it upconvert? Suppose we are talking about the 2006 model Samsung DLPs ( 1080p variants ), is the upconverter in a Samsung HD960 better than letting the DLP set upconvert? Just tring to understand.

hdspringer98

05-19-06, 05:57 PM

There's one on ebay. I just listed it as I received 2. Both are brand new and work perfectly. Selling the extra one. Very pleased with PQ via HDMI!!!

jtundrea

05-19-06, 06:17 PM

The ARCAM DV137 ($2200) is expensive because it uses the ABT1010 upscaling chipset which is the same as the DVDO VP30 video processors ($1900) that can deinterlace 1080i to 1080p and the Denon 5910CI ($3800) which are also very expensive.

The LG191H also claims to display HD JPEG. It uses the Zoran Vaddis 888 chipset.

The Vaddis product has several numbering part within each grouping (888,882) however since the 888 is a video processor and the Samsung already has the Faroudja to delnterlace then maybe they are using the Zoran CVD2 as a video decoder. But that still would not explain the HD JPEG or Zoom features seen on the Vaddis players.

Maybe they use the Faroudja for component and composite and the Vaddis 888 for HDMI. However the 888 only upscales to 1080i not 1080p.

Does anyone volunteer opening up their DVD-HD960 to check inside? :D

Mofongo

05-19-06, 08:16 PM

I would think that the HD JPEG and EZ-View features (plus the DivX support) mean that the HD-960s has to use a Zoran solution for the decoder. For example, the DVD-HD941 used the Vaddis 778 chipset (which can also upscale/de-interlace) as the decoder only and piped the output into the FLI-2310 for deinterlace/upscaling. Perhaps the HD960 does something similar with the Vaddis 8xx. They probably had to go with the FLI-2310 because it does 1080p and the Vaddis only does 1080i. The HD960 only does 480i/p over component...anything else requires the HDMI port. Therefore, the FLI-2310 is hooked up to the HDMI output.

If somebody would open up theirs and take a peek inside, then we would know what the decoder is for sure! Hey, hdspringer98, you have two...why not open one up. :)

Mofongo

jtundrea

05-19-06, 08:50 PM

2003 HD931: Faroudja chip to deinterlace/upscale - LSI Ziva5 decoder 1080i DVI
2004 HD941: Faroudja chip to deinterlace/upscale and Vaddis 778 decoder 1080i HDMI and EZ View
2004 HD841: Vaddis 778 chip to deinterlace/upscale/decoder 1080i DVI - EZ View
2005 HD950: Vaddis 778 chip to deinterlace/upscale/decoder 1080i HDMI - EZ View - HD JPEG (Zoran HDXtreme chip)
2005 HD850: Vaddis 778 chip to deinterlace/upscale/decoder 1080i HDMI- EZ View
2006 HD860: Vaddis 888 to deinterlace/upscale/decoder 1080i HDMI - EZ View - HD JPEG (Zoran HDXtreme chip)
2006 HD960: Faroudja chip to deinterlace/upscale and unknown decoder (Vaddis 888???) 1080P HDMI - EZ View - HD JPEG (Zoran HDXtreme chip)

Zorans website announced that the new 2005 Samsung DVD's would use the Vaddis 862 however Secrets of Home Theater mentioned that the HD950 uses the Vaddis 778 so it is another Samsung 2005 cheaper DVD player. The Vaddis 862 was the first of the 8 series to be introduced in Jan 2005 mainly for the under $100 DVD player market that do not do upconversion.

Secrets gave an average review to the HD941 which resembles most to the HD960 mainly due to the underperforming Vaddis decoder according to them. I hope the HD960 uses the Vaddis 888 and not the 778 for decoding MPEG2

Samsung is also using a Zoran Generation9 chip for their soon to be released (June) Blu Ray DVD player which will also uspcale to 1080p over HDMI.

designedfor

05-19-06, 09:34 PM

Anyone compared this against the oppo yet? Debating between this and the oppo.

Tarheel72

05-19-06, 11:14 PM

You and about a millon others I imagine. My fear is that few people will have both, so the Oppo owners will favor that machine and the HD960 crowd will champion their machine. We need someone who has both, and both over a Samsung HLS, to tell us how they perform. My impression is that the Oppo is a first class unit that produces a great picture, but it definitely has some bugs (quirks?). Plus I wish the HDMI version was available. And of course it doesn't upscale to the Holy Grail of resolution: 1080p. The jury is still out on the HD-960, but I am anxiously awaitng at least a few reviews of its performance from our loyal readers.

Chris Gerhard

05-20-06, 07:40 AM

jtundrea

05-20-06, 01:14 PM

It must be the firmware. Samsung must of eliminated some of the bugs in the 2004 HD841 in the 2005 HD950 since it is essentially the same hardware.

The firmware is what worries me about Samsung. Although they use the same DCDI Faroudja chip as the Oppo will it perform the same? The HD 941 had a similiar chip and the reviews were mediocre.

Just look at the Secrets bench test between the Oppo and the LG - DVB418, they have the same hardware (Faroudja Deinterlacer and Upscaler and MediaTek Decoder) yet the firmware is by different companies. There is a world of difference.

At least you can upgrade the HD960 firmware. Lets just hope Samsung is half as committed to updating and fixing bugs as Oppo and do not use the Vaddis 778 as the decoder (learned from past experience).

Mofongo

05-20-06, 01:30 PM

Yes, it all really comes down to the implementation. We have to hope that Samsung A) has a halfway decent decoder to begin with, and B) actually implements it well. Oppo got to be where it is now by investing a lot of time constantly tweaking the decorder and upscaler chipsets. Unfortunately, with a separate chipset for decoding and upscaling, their is are more variables to fiddle with and more things to implement poorly.

Since the LG LDA-511 was a farily well-received player, and the new LG DN191H (based on the Vaddis 888 for decoding and upscaling) is at least as good as the LDA-511, it seems like the 888 *can* be implemented in a decent fashion.

FYI, Amazon.com now has the DVD-HD960 in stock through Amazon proper (not Electronics Express).

Mofongo

MoneyMark

05-20-06, 02:45 PM

I opened up my hd960 and can confirm the use of a Zoran 886. Here are a few snapshots I took.

AlbertA

05-20-06, 02:54 PM

I opened up my hd960 and can confirm the use of a Zoran 886. Here are a few snapshots I took.

Excellent info !!

Tarheel72

05-20-06, 03:16 PM

So is that good or bad? Is the 886 a Samsung version of the 888? Is anyone seen any data on the 886 or on its performance? I can not find any reference to it on the Zoran website. Is it just a lower priced version of the 888 that does not support DVD-A applications? That would be my guess.

Mofongo

05-20-06, 03:39 PM

I opened up my hd960 and can confirm the use of a Zoran 886. Here are a few snapshots I took.

Awesome! Thanks!

My guess would be that the 886 is just the 888 without a couple of the features that are obviously not needed (SACD/DVD-A or upscaling or USB-interface or something like that). But I will defer to the expert (jtundrea) for the final word. :)

MoneyMark, so now that you've played with it for a few days, are you still happy with the player? Have you noticed any of the macroblocking that people complain about with the FLI-23xx? Also, does the denoise setting actually do anything?

Mofongo

zoro

05-20-06, 04:47 PM

I am waiting for 1080P changer version..pls keep us posted.

Mofongo

05-20-06, 10:36 PM

Buy.com has it in stock now for a good price and free shipping. I think this is the cheapest "bottom line price" of any store that has it in stock.

ABT electronics does not have it in stock yet, but has it available for pre-order for a good price plus free shipping (plus they have a 30-day satisfaction-guaranteed return policy and they even pay for return shipping!). Has anyone every bought anything from them before?

Mofongo

jtundrea

05-20-06, 11:47 PM

I agree with mofongo ,the Vadiss 886 does not have some of the options that the 888 has but performs the same way as a decoder. The HD1080 probably uses the Vadis 888 for the SACD ouput.

The reviews of the HD860 have not been great but that's mostly to do with the Vaddis 888 as a deinterlacer and upscaler not decoder since this has been used in hi end DVD players to decode like the Arcam DV137 at over $2000.

KBI

05-21-06, 02:33 AM

Chris Gerhard

05-21-06, 05:45 AM

Thats odd.. Many A1 owners claim it does a great job upconverting SD DVDS..

A Best Buy in store demo of standard DVD looked terrible but from what I have read, most agree with your opinion. Watching standard DVD over component would likely mean you would want to get a different player but over HDMI, the A1 is getting mostly good reviews.

Chris

IceMan5043

05-21-06, 06:03 PM

zoro

05-21-06, 06:06 PM

I cant see at buy.com, help pls

IceMan5043

05-21-06, 07:33 PM

Type "Samsung DVD player" in the Buy.com search box and it will show up as the one with the price mentioned above.

Chris Gerhard

05-21-06, 08:49 PM

I cant see at buy.com, help pls

http://www.buy.com/prod/Samsung_Hi_Def_DVD_Player/q/loc/111/202619780.html

Chris

Mofongo

05-21-06, 10:04 PM

Buy.com only pays for return shipping in the case of a defect. The ABT site implies that they will pay even if you just don't like it. (Although I have not ordered anything from them [let alone return something], so I cannot vouch for this firsthand).

Today I asked ABT when they expect to get DVD-HD960, and they said "Oh yeah, we got 25 units on Thursday and have 18 left." So I pointed out they should update their website. :) Their website now says "in stock."

I ordered one from them for $166 with free shipping. Should get it Thursday or Friday. Woohoo!

Mofongo

Tarheel72

05-22-06, 10:18 AM

Owner's, please give us reports on the player's performance. thanks.

spahn

05-22-06, 10:43 AM

so aside from the HD-960 doing 1080p, is there any other difference between HD-860 and the HD-960.

i am not sure of which one to get.

Tarheel72

05-22-06, 10:46 AM

They have different chip sets for upconversion and decoding. I suggest you review thte spec sheets on Samsung.com.

chaos8517

05-22-06, 05:31 PM

MoneyMark

05-22-06, 07:39 PM

Mark,
Any new results? are you still happy? ----- I'm anxiously awaiting the arrival of my set/player

Sorry, no further developments. I have been trying to calibrate the hl-s5687w to my satisfaction. Everyone says to turn of DNIe, but I can't cal the colors if I do so. If I leave it on, I hear my blacks will suffer. I am attempting to see if I can calibrate the tv with DNIe and achieve proper gamma and color ratings. My spyder2 pro is helping, it is just time consuming.

It is hard for me to give advice to people when I have not seen other upscaling players and I am not confident with the current calibration. I am happy enough with it to keep it over my old component out dvd player, though. No stores carry an oppo for me to compare it with and my friend has a $1500 dollar upscaling unit, which I feel is an unfair comparison if I was to try and use it.

DiscoNaldo

05-22-06, 07:45 PM

Problem - hoping someone can offer some insight.

I'm running the HD960 with the 42" Westinghouse LVM-42w2 via HDMI (comes included - surprising bonus). Looks really, really good BTW.

Here's my problem...

The HD960 is supposed to upconvert to 1080p.
The LVM-42w2 is supposed to accept 1080p sources via HDMI.

For some reason, the DVD Menu options will not allow me to select 1080p. It's there, but when I highlight it and press Enter, the screen reverts back to 480p. It displays in 720p and 1080i without a problem... but I bought this thing because it was one of the only 1080p upconverters on the market, so this is kinda ticking me off.

Samsung customer service is blaming Westinghouse, and Westinghouse customer service is blaming Samsung. I have no idea...

Thoughts?

Tarheel72

05-22-06, 08:23 PM

Sorry, no further developments. I have been trying to calibrate the hl-s5687w to my satisfaction. Everyone says to turn of DNIe, but I can't cal the colors if I do so. If I leave it on, I hear my blacks will suffer. I am attempting to see if I can calibrate the tv with DNIe and achieve proper gamma and color ratings. My spyder2 pro is helping, it is just time consuming.

It is hard for me to give advice to people when I have not seen other upscaling players and I am not confident with the current calibration. I am happy enough with it to keep it over my old component out dvd player, though. No stores carry an oppo for me to compare it with and my friend has a $1500 dollar upscaling unit, which I feel is an unfair comparison if I was to try and use it.

Forget unfair, go ahead and compare it to the $1500 unit. The Oppo was tested against $2000 units and supposedly beat them so why not compare the HD-960 against a $1500 unit.

jtundrea

05-22-06, 09:10 PM

MoneyMark

05-22-06, 09:39 PM

Forget unfair, go ahead and compare it to the $1500 unit. The Oppo was tested against $2000 units and supposedly beat them so why not compare the HD-960 against a $1500 unit.

I did not know this. I will go ahead and see if I can borrow his player as soon as I can. He has a 60" sxrd, I'll try my hd960 on his tv as well since it is calibrated I believe. Unfortunately I will not be able to do this probably until, at the earliest, this coming weekend.

Mofongo

05-22-06, 11:01 PM

The HD960 is supposed to upconvert to 1080p.
The LVM-42w2 is supposed to accept 1080p sources via HDMI.

For some reason, the DVD Menu options will not allow me to select 1080p. It's there, but when I highlight it and press Enter, the screen reverts back to 480p. It displays in 720p and 1080i without a problem... but I bought this thing because it was one of the only 1080p upconverters on the market, so this is kinda ticking me off.

Hmm....just a stab in the dark but have you tried a better cable? A lot of people in the Sony NS75H forum, for example, report having problems getting that unit to output 1080i with some cables (in most cases I think the unit reverts all the way down to 480p). It is amazing how sensitive some players are to cable issues, especially the newer ones. And that's just for 1080i. The "classic" failure mode of an HDMI cable is supposed to be "sparkling" in the image. However, most newer players at least seem to fail right at the outset, or they just quit playing entirely in the middle of a movie for a few seconds.

It is promising that 1080p is there to highlight to begin with. When you select it, the player may try to switch to that bitrate and fail, causing it to revert back to 480p. It also does not seem like an HDCP handshake issue, since it works fine under 720p/1080i.

I have a LVM-37w1, so I hope there is not a problem with HD960 talking to Westinghouse TVs. :(

Is anyone else out there using the cable that came with the HD960?

Mofongo

test4echo

05-23-06, 12:26 AM

Chris Gerhard

05-23-06, 04:59 AM

I'm trying to understand something...if I have a TV that accepts 1080i/1080p via HDMI and has a native resolution of 1080p, how does the Toshiba HD-DVD player produce a better picture? I have a DVD player with 1080i output hooked up via HDMI to my HDTV, and the HDTV properly deinterlaces the signal and upconverts to 1080p, I would think it would have the same quality...what am I missing?

Possible reasons are a different MPEG decoder/de-interlacer/scaler/firmware/HDMI output/other factors. The Secrets Benchmark test discusses the many issues that distinguish one player from another. In reality with properly mastered film based DVD's the differences are often not great between different players. With DVD's having improper flags and poorly mastered DVD's, the differences become more apparent. The HQV disc torture test disc highlights problems that could cause issues. I am not saying the Toshiba HD-DVD player upscales better than the Samsung players since I haven't compared them and don't own the Toshiba HD DVD. Of course the Toshiba HD DVD player looks much better when comparing a true HD source with a DVD.

Chris

DiscoNaldo

05-23-06, 06:31 AM

That is the same setup I'm considering (Westinghouse LVM-42w2 and HD960). I have no idea. Both the LCD (FLI8548H) and DVD player (FLI2310LF) have the DCDI Faroudja chip so I would think there shouldn't be any problem if you can also display 720P and 1080i over HDMI. Did you try to select the 1080p on the HD960 before connecting it to the Westy and see if it takes or does it need to be connected to choose the resolution on the Menu?

The Westy does accept 1080p input via HDMI. See the link that connects it to a Helios HVD2085 DVD player (however this DVD player uses the AMLogic chip) that can upconvert to 1080p over HDMI.

MoneyMark has connected the HD960 via HDMI (1080p) to his Samsung 1080p DLP (however they use the TI chip) so the DVD does upconvert to to 1080p via HDMI as well.

Before I purchase this DVD player I'll try it at Best Buy with the Westy once they get it in stock to see if it works.

Thanks for the response.

As far as I know, the player needs to be connected via HDMI in order to select the proper resolution (so says the instruction manual). Also, the review that you cited is running the 1080p upconverter through the DVI input on the Westy... I know it shouldn't make a difference, but then again, stranger things have happened.

I know that in my 42" Westy instruction booklet it says that HDMI accepts up to 1080i, whereas the DVI inputs will do 1080p. Westinghouse has stated that this is a misprint, however, and that HDMI does 1080p as well (which would only make sense).

To be sure, I'm pretty new to this world, and I'm aware that the whole 1080p/HDMI/HDCP world is in constant flux. Still, if you advertise 1080p - I want it to do 1080p, no questions.

Hmm....just a stab in the dark but have you tried a better cable? A lot of people in the Sony NS75H forum, for example, report having problems getting that unit to output 1080i with some cables (in most cases I think the unit reverts all the way down to 480p). It is amazing how sensitive some players are to cable issues, especially the newer ones. And that's just for 1080i. The "classic" failure mode of an HDMI cable is supposed to be "sparkling" in the image. However, most newer players at least seem to fail right at the outset, or they just quit playing entirely in the middle of a movie for a few seconds.

I haven't thought about it being a cable issue, but that very well may be the case... I've watched a few movies and haven't noticed any "sparkling" or chugging, but I'll try running another HDMI cable and see if that helps.

Any suggestions on good quality cables (that preferably cost less than the DVD player itself)?

jtundrea

05-23-06, 11:21 AM

The Helios HVD2085 DVD player only has an HDMI output at 1080p NOT DVI. The DVI connection in that review was with the PC.

The Westy resolution does not have selectability of resolution with HDMI (only set to 1080p) unlike the VGA and DVI inputs. Set the scaling to standard before hooking up the DVD player.

Make sure you select progressive off on the Display Options Setup Menu of the DVD player and try all three Formats (RGB, Monitor and TV) to see if you can select 1080p ouput.

Mofongo

05-23-06, 01:41 PM

jtundea has some good suggestions...since the Westinghouse is sort of a DVI-centric design, it would not surprise me if the HDMI port only takes RGB. Definitely try experimenting with all of these options. Seems like something Samsung tech support should have thought of...

If that doesn't work, then one thing to consider (depending on your ethical viewpoint) would be to go to Best Buy or Circuit City and get a high-end AR or Monster cable just to try them out. If that fixes the problem, then order a much much cheaper cable from Monoprice.com and take the store-bought cable back.

Or a middle-ground approach: Best Buy carries two lines of AR cables. In the cheaper line, the HDMI cable is only something like $30, which isn't too bad a price. I am using that plus a Monster DVI-HDMI converter to go from my cable box to my LVM-37w1. That works with no problems, but it's only 1080i.

Mofongo

Zeppa

05-23-06, 03:08 PM

Hi! I´m completely new in all this. I´ve been following this forum for the last couple of days. Made up my mind to buy the 960, or maybe go straight for the 1080, as soon as it´s avalilable. Problem is I'm in Brazil (English is my second language, so forgive me if I write something odd or that sounds funny, ok?) and I could not find any online store that would 1) accept international CC and 2) ship to my country.
If anyone can inform me of an online store that does so, that would be great.
Anyway, I intend do go to the USA soon. Then I'll be able to get my player in a... streetstore (is that how you call it?). So, give me one good hint about a store in NYC or Miami (my most likely destinations while in the USA).
Thanks a lot
Zeppa

Mofongo

05-23-06, 03:21 PM

They do not carry the HD960 right now, but B&H Photo carries a good selection of DVD players in their store in Manhattan. My wife and I bought a digital camera from them, and I highly recommend them. I would bet that when the HD1080 comes out that they will sell it.

Mofongo

5555

05-23-06, 03:58 PM

Zeppa

05-23-06, 04:20 PM

I've heard about it. It's on 5th Ave, isn't it?

Mofongo

05-23-06, 04:43 PM

I've heard about it. It's on 5th Ave, isn't it?

9th Ave. A little over a block (mostly west) from Penn Station. Directions, map, etc. can be found on their website. (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=RootPage.jsp&A=getpage&Q=HelpCenter/NYSuperStore.jsp)

They also ship UPS internationally. AND you can even view their website in Portuguese!

Mofongo

sroy

05-23-06, 06:56 PM

Can anyone comment on the audio quality of the HD960? I owned the HD941 for a while before returning it and i was quite disappointed with the audio output CD/SACD/Dolby compared to my older Panny and the Sony NS70H that replaced it.

Also, the HD941 suffered from lip-synch problems on some of my DVD's. Wonder if they solved this issue on the HD960.

diytheaterguy

05-23-06, 10:33 PM

FINALLY! The owner's manual is up on Samsung's site:

HD960 Manual (http://www.samsung.com/support/productsupport/download/Model_Select2.aspx?type=DVD+Player&subtype=Hi%2DDef+Conversion+DVD+Players&model=DVD%2DHD960&fileType=UM&LSSI=%2Finclude%2FSSI%2Fus%5Fleft%2FLMenu%5FDVDPlayer%5FHi%5 FDefConversionDVDPlayers%2Esec&RSSI=%2Finclude%2FSSI%2Fus%5Fright%2FRMenu%5FDVDPlayer%2Esec )

I haven't even read it - just found it.

Also ordered this player today - should get it by Friday.

Mofongo

05-23-06, 11:13 PM

The manual has been there since April 20th, dude. :) The DVD-HD1080 has yet to appear, however.

M

Mofongo

05-24-06, 12:30 AM

jtundrea

05-24-06, 12:39 AM

Another suggestion for DiscoNaldo: I read on the LVM-42w2 thread that someone had problems connecting the NeuNeo DVD player at 1080p to the TV's HDMI port. However, when connected to the DVI port, it worked fine. So that's another option to try.

Mofongo

This review from audioholics of the renamed NeuNeo now called Helios HVD2085 was connected to a Westy 42" LCD at 1080p via HDMI

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/NeoDigits-Helios-HVD2085p1.php

Mofongo

05-24-06, 12:45 AM

I meant that the person used an HDMI->DVI conversion cable from the NeuNeo to the lvm-42w2. I have read that review...apparently either the reviewer had a TV with newer firmware or (my guess) the "Helios" has some firmware tweaks that were not present when it was called a NeuNeo. Or it could be some random problems with a particular unit.

I should also mention that somebody else had the inverse problem: an HDMI-out dvd player (don't remember which one) had problems going to the DVI port, but not the HDMI port.

Mofongo

jtundrea

05-24-06, 10:56 AM

According to the Samsung Web Site Magnolia Home Theater in Best Buy and Magnolia Hi Fi have the HD960 in stock however Best Buy.com does not even show the HD960 on their website. I'll have to stop by and take a look and verify if the Westy and HD960 can communicate via HDMI at 1080p before I purchase. I would already have the HD TV tuner on DVI and I want to use the other one with my PC so I do not want to use a HDMI to DVI converter to go from the HD960 to the Westy 42" LCD.

Neuromancer

05-24-06, 02:36 PM

IceMan5043

05-24-06, 04:48 PM

What about CC? Any plans to get the HD960 there in the near future?

teddyc23

05-25-06, 07:51 AM

Hi Mofongo. I noticed in another thread your recieved your HD960. I have one on order with Cructhfield right now. Did you get a chance to try the EZ-View? I was curious if it makes the image look blurry like some players. Thanks

Teddy

jtundrea

05-25-06, 11:08 AM

Mofongo, also how is the picture quality? Did you connect it via DVI at 1080p?

Also does it play HD JPEG, the manual only mentions JPEG but the spec sheet on the Samsung website mentions HD JPEG. The HD860 manual which uses the Vaddis 888 chip does mention HD JPEG setup. I guess if you can display a JPEG at 1080p using DVI it is HD JPEG. If the HD960 has the Vaddis HDXtreme chip along with the 886 chip it does play HD JPEG. I also like the fact that it can play MP3 in the background at the same time show JPEG slides.

Zeppa

05-25-06, 02:11 PM

I've just found out that eCost is advertising the HD1080 for US$214. They show it as "available".
Too bad they don't ship to Brazil... sniff...

superman

05-25-06, 02:13 PM

Neuromancer

05-25-06, 02:51 PM

Mofongo

05-25-06, 03:23 PM

Did you notice the picture on the Samsung.com website... it has a LAN Connection! So will the DVD HD-1080 be able to stream video (if the picture on the web site is correct) - can anybody provide some more details?

Can you post a URL for this picture? I cannot seem to find it. Beats me what a LAN connection would be for. Seems way too cheap for it to stream network video. And if it can, I am sending back my DVD-HD960 right now!

Mofongo

P.S. To everyone, I did get my DVD-HD960 yesterday and I got it working on my LVM-37w1! I am typing up my review right now. The short short summary: It is much better than my Philips DVP-642 (which outputs over component). There is a small but definitely detectable improvement over having the HD960 output 480p on HDMI and letting my TV (which also has a Faroudja chip) do the upscaling vs. having the player upscale all the way to 1080p. This is especially noticable on good-quality animated DVDs like Monster's Inc.

More soon!

chaos8517

05-25-06, 03:46 PM

I did get my DVD-HD960 yesterday and I got it working on my LVM-37w1! I am typing up my review right now.
More soon!

Horray! Looking forward to it. Post pictures and other fun things... no macroblocking?

Jeffhdz

05-25-06, 03:50 PM

This one ?

http://www.samsung.com/images/dvd_features/hdmi_connect.jpg

It's shown for HD860 too, and we knew the 860 does not have a LAN port. Must be a generic picture to show HDMI port.

jtundrea

05-25-06, 04:13 PM

Mofongo make sure to see how the picture quality is using DVI 1 on your Westy since DVI 2 does not input 1080p when the HD960 upscales to 1080p and compare it to 480p upscaled to 1080p done by the Westy.

Mofongo

05-25-06, 05:51 PM

My DVD-HD960 was shipped UPS from ABT electronics in Chicago on Monday (I paid a decent price for it including shipping) and it arrived in Pittsburgh on Wednesday. Hooray to UPS for delivering early. I was impressed with how well ABT packed the DVD player in their shipping box...lots of padding everywhere.

I was worried that it would not work well with my 37" Westinghouse LVM-37w1 1080p LCD display, since people have reported problems with various DVD players and this display. I did have some problems in the beginning, but I will write up the solution to those in a separate message which I will post here and on the lvm-37w1 and lvm-37w3 threads. The short result is that right now everything seems to be working fine with 1080p output to my TV.

This is the first upscaling DVD player I have owned, so I cannot compare it to other ones. I do, however, have ffdshow filters installed on my laptop and have been playing DVDs with that (output to the VGA port on my TV). So this gives me a good idea with what one could accomplish with a cheap multimedia PC and freeware filters these days.

The first thing I noticed is that for some reason the brightness/contrast for 1080p is different than 480p/720p/1080i (which all appear to be the same). This makes it annoying to compare, say, 480p to 1080p since I have to readjust the settings on the DVD player and the TV when I switch back and forth. The default black level is higher and the white level is lower on 1080p than for other modes. Very weird. Fortunately, the player has some coarse-grained brightness and contrast controls. I use brightness level 2 and contrast level 4 for 1080p, level 3 for both in any other mode (plus some adjusting on my TV for each). I use AVIA to calibrate the black and white levels. With calibration, everything is dandy. It's just weird that 1080p is different.

In testing the player, I used mostly The Matrix and Blade Runner Directors Cut (both rather noisy transfers and 2.39:1 aspect ratio), as well as Shrek, Monsters Inc, and March of the Penguins ("March" also being somewhat noisy).

Is there any benefit to 1080p? I would say yes, there is some benefit for me. My TV actually has the Faroudja chip in it, so in theory it should do a comparable job to the DVD player. For example, the way that the Faroudja chip is most likely doing the de-interlacing first (480i->480p), then doing the upscaling. So in theory, having the HD960 to the de-interlacing, then sending that via the HDMI digital link to the TV, then having the Faroudja in the TV upscale to 1080p *should* produce a result that is similar (some might say identical) to having the DVD player do everything. This theory might not work, however, if the Faroudja chip somehow makes upscaling decisions based on how it is deinterlacing, or if the two processes are somehow otherwise intertwined.

In practice, I do notice that there are a couple of ways that having the HD960 do the full upconversion does really improve my viewing experience. The first is resolution. Monsters Inc is a great way to test resolution, since it is such a good transfer and you can see what happens with Sully's hair. His hair looks good no matter if my TV or DVD does the upconverting, but it definitely looks a little bit better when the DVD player does it. If the TV upconverts, he has very fine hair, but there is something that is just not quite perfect about it (like you can see a little too many edge effects from the upconversion or something), but with the HD960 doing the upconversion, it looks perfect. In general, the player seems to be able to capture detail a little bit better than my TV does. Upconversion artifacts seem less obvious. It is possible that Samsung just implemented the chipset a little better than Westinghouse did.

Another way that 1080p helps (at least for me): One of the first things I discovered with this player is that I really notice each individual frame of a 24fps source. As an example, there is a scene at the beginning of The Matrix where Trinity is running away from the Agent on the rooftop. She does the "impossible" jump over the street, to be followed by the agent doing the same thing (the cops wisely do not attempt the jump). After the agent lands, she peeks out from the chimney behind which she is hiding, sees the agent, then quickly moves her head back behind the chimney. For this last motion, we see a closeup of her head moving from left to right across the screen. With the HD960, when she moves her head really fast like this, it appears to me like I can see 3 or 4 distinct images of her head (all in a row from left to right) at once. I went back and watched the same scene with my Philips, and the effect is still there, but not quite as noticeable because there is more blur in the motion. I think what is going on here is that upscaling is sharpening each frame so well that my visual system, instead of seeing a blur as Trinity moves her head, actually picks out the separate image of Trinity's head in each individual frame. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it just surprised me when I first saw it. It takes a little getting used to. I do not know if this is endemic to all upscaling DVD players, or ones that just use the Faroudja. I think I remember seeing the same effect with a demoed HD-DVD player on an LVM-42w2, so I would guess this is just a product of the sharper image. If anyone else can comment on this, I would be very interested. It could also be that LCD displays accentuate this kind of thing (I don't think it's a pixel speed issue since my display is supposed to be 12ms, which is way less than 1/24th of a second). The one general thing I have noticed is that this effect is actually *less noticeable* at 1080p that almost any other setting (including component 480i output from the HD960). Pumping up the noise filter on the HD960 also makes this more noticeable...most noise filters smooth over both space and time. So probably, the noise filtering causes the images of Trinity's head to stick around longer, making them more noticeable.

The dreaded Faroudja "macroblocking bug:" Of the DVDs that supposedly show this, I only have Monsters Inc. I can see the macroblocking effect if I really really look for it. But honestly, if I did not know it was there, I could have watched those scenes 800 times and never seen it. But then, LCD TVs are usually not that sensitive to it.

The only other slight annoyance I have come across, I will call "microblocking" :). As another example, in Matrix Revolutions, right after Neo first wakes up on the floor of the train station (and sees the little kid beaming down at him) there follows a scene where Trinity and Morpheus (and Saraph) pay a visit to the new and degraded Oracle. When they first come in the Oracle's apartment, they have a conversation with the Oracle who is sitting on her couch. The camera shows lots of closeups of the Oracle (when she talks) with her slightly left of center, and there is a pastel green-ish wall behind her. If I watch the movie in EZ-View "Fit" mode, that wall shows lots of noise. What makes it more noticeable, is that the noise is 3 to 4 horizontal bands across the image of the wall. In other words, if you go from the top of the couch to the top of the screen, you will see solid green, then a region of noise, then an ever-so-slightly different shade of solid green, then another band of noise, etc. Part if this is caused by the LCD having poor color depth. You see this kind of "banding" all of the time in images that have very smooth color/intensity gradients across the frame. What is annoying here is that the boundaries between the bands are a hive of noise (basically, in frame A, pixel P is just barely above the threshold for the lighter shade of green, so it's lighter, then in the next frame, it's just barely below the threshold, so it's darker, etc). The noise filter in the DVD player seems not able to get rid of this. This kind of thing seems to be more pronounced when I am using the EZ-View feature, so I am wondering if the noise filter is calibrated to expect a 480p-sized pixel. When the pixels are enlarged by EZ-View zoom, maybe it does not pick them up as well anymore. Having said this, I should really emphasize that this only happens in rare instances and only (so far) in EZ-View. For the most part, watching Matrix Revolutions is a real pleasure on this thing, and I would rather have EZ-View on and deal with some noise now and again than watch it in 2.39:1. I will experiment more with this and maybe see if I can take a picture of the TV image to show what I mean.

If I watch the same scene on my laptop (with the noise filtering cranked up), there is basically noise all over the wall...I don't get the banding. Most of the time, there is actually more noise from my laptop than the HD960. Overall, the HD960 seems to do a really good job with noise. March of the Penguins is particularly noisy on my Philips and on the generic WinDVD player on my laptop (lots of noise in the panorama shots of the blue sky, for example). However, the HD960 does a really great job with that movie. The sky looks nice and smooth. The detail on the penguins looks excellent. I should say that overall, I am impressed with the noise filtering and upscaling job that the HD960 does. It took me fiddling with dozens of parameters in ffdshow to get acceptable results, and I have 6 or 7 different sets of parameters that I choose from depending on what kind of movie I am watching. The HD960 has far fewer parameters that you can tweak, yet still manages to do a decent job.

So overall, the image is both smoother motion-wise, plus has better detail with 1080p. Now keep in mind that this is me doing lots of comparisons and being nit-picky. None of the differences are really all that big. You will not be blown away by the improvement over another quality DVD player that does not do 1080p. Although, you may see a bigger difference than I do if your TV does not have a good scaler/de-interlacer chip in it.

The "annoyances" I mention are also very small. For the most part, I think the HD960 is doing a good job and I will probably keep the player (unless the HD1080 incorporates some feature I absolutely must have).

Mofongo

teddyc23

05-25-06, 06:20 PM

Thanks Mofongo for the review. It sounds to me like the EZ-View doesnt take a dramatic hit on picture quality. I was wondering did it pass BTB and proper white levels for you? You were using HDMI, right? I will be using an HDMI to DVI adapter for my TV. I am hoping it will not mess up the BTB and white level. Anybody been able to test this with DVI? Thanks

Teddy

Mofongo

05-25-06, 06:44 PM

My TV only has DVI inputs. I used both an AR (not the high-end line, but their middle grade line) HDMI-HDMI cable with a Monster Cable HDMI-DVI adapter at one end, and a monoprice 15' 24 AWG HDMI->DVI cable. As far as I could tell, there was no difference in performance between either cabling solution.

One thing the HD960 did right off the bat was recognize that my TV required RGB values. The manual says that under "Format" in the HDMI setup menu, you can select between TV-RGB, Monitor (presumably this outputs 0->255 RGB), and TV (which I would guess outputs YCbCr). I can only select TV-RGB and Monitor. I am guessing this is because it is smart enough to realize that my TV cannot take YCbCr values. If I set it to "Monitor" the image does change...brights become a little brighter for example, which is consistent with going from studio RGB levels to monitor ones. I did not experiment with the "Monitor" setting beyond that. I can calibrate the black and white levels quite easily using AVIA, so all evidence seems to indicate that it is indeed sending the correct levels to my DVI display.

Does anybody know exactly what the "Black Level" toggle on Samsungs actually does? I suspect that one setting means black is 0, while the other is 16, but which one is which?? The default is "On". I fiddled with this in AVIA and decided to go with "On" since that seemed to make the black level brightest.

Regarding EZ-View: yes it seems to work mostly as I hoped. It definitely seems to be doing some processing on the EZ-View-ed image. I am going to fiddle more with the feature tonight.

Mofongo

jtundrea

05-25-06, 06:48 PM

Great review Mofongo! 1080p having different calibrations then 480p using same connection is weird. If the calibration were different when comparing 1080p HDMI compared to 480p component then I'd say that the HD960 is using the Faroudja chip for 1080p and the Vaddis 886 for 480p on component but I'm sure you used the same connection. The faroudja chip in the LCD is different then the one on the DVD. Same process but have some different features.

Can't wait for the 1080p connection (HDMI to DVI) solution to the LCD. I'm sure DiscoNaldo is too unless he solved this issue already however his is HDMI 1080p from the DVD to HDMI 1080p LCD.

Mofongo

05-25-06, 06:55 PM

Oh yeah...and one more minor annoyance :). The menus on this thing are sloooooooooooooooow. It takes a full second or more to process key presses in many of the menus. If you are like me and spend hours fiddling with the different HDMI options with different movies, you will soon weary of Menu->up->Setup->down->down->Display Setup->down->down->down->down->HDMI->up->up->Noise Reduction->up->up...

Mofongo

suffolk112000

05-25-06, 07:23 PM

Wow, the 960 sounds like a great player. I would like to hear some reviews from owners of this player who have front projection units with 80 or 90+ inch screens. :)

Craig

a-switcher

05-25-06, 07:35 PM

Question - Is the HD960 going to be signficantly better than the HD860 for a 40" Samsung 720p TV (1360x768)? Is that chip worth waiting for?

a-switcher

05-25-06, 07:44 PM

Did you notice the picture on the Samsung.com website... it has a LAN Connection! So will the DVD HD-1080 be able to stream video (if the picture on the web site is correct) - can anybody provide some more details?

Thanks

Yeah, that would be very interesting. Wonder if its a linux box as well and will talk properly to anything...

jtundrea

05-25-06, 08:36 PM

DiscoNaldo did you select Monitor as the format in the HD960 setup menu and does this help communicate between the HD960 and Westy 42" LCD via HDMI at 1080p?

Mofongo

05-26-06, 12:00 AM

Now, some info on my experience on getting the DVD-HD960 to work on the Westinghouse LVM-37w1 1080p LCD display. Since several folks out there appear to have a Westinghouse display, you might find this interesting, or at least amusing. :)

This model display has two digital inputs, both DVI. The manual says that DVI1 is capable of 1080p, and that DVI2 only does 1080i. People have also reported that Westinghouse tech support says that DVI2 is somehow optimized for HD cable boxes and tuners. In fact, somebody reported that Westinghouse tech support told them that DVI1 is not even connected to the Genesis/Faroudja deinterlacer! That, I think, is complete nonsense...every input has to be connected to some kind of deinterlacer, and why not make them all the same? Maybe DVI1 *bypasses* the deinterlacer when 1080p is input or something, but why on earth would you bother putting different deinterlacers on different inputs?? I have watched the exact same video segments on my DVR (1080i) on both DVI1 and DVI2 and I cannot see any difference, especially where deinterlacing is concerned.

But back to my original topic: 1080p DVI input. My experience in this regard has shown that, somebody in Westinghouse engineering or their documentation department cannot count to 2. And yes, I am serious.

When I got my new DVD-HD960, I plugged it into DVI1, because that's what the manual told me to do. I used a high quality HDMI-to-DVI cable. The DVD-HD960 defaulted to 480p mode when I first plugged it in (mode selection was set to "Auto"). I set mode selection to "Manual" then told it to do 1080p. What I got after a few seconds was a jagged mess of oblique lines. It looks like the scan rate of the input signal was not meshing with what the TV thought the scan rate was (or what the TV was capable of). Yuck! I thought I was pretty much doomed at this point.

However, I read somewhere on that somebody else had problems plugging their computer into DVI1, but for some reason DVI2 worked just fine. So, I swapped to DVI2 and, lo and behold, it worked! I can verify that the signal really is 1080p by going to the TV's setup menu displaying the properties of the input signal.

I did have some problems at the beginning. It seemed to be related to the handshake or whatever initialization happens at the beginning when both TV and DVD player turn on. If I switched the DVD player to 1080p mode without turning off the TV, the resultant image would have wiggly lines in it, or sometimes is would have "sparkling" green pixels, or sometimes red lines running horizontally across the screen. Whatever errant behavior it chose, it would continue until I turned off the DVD player, then turned it back on (while it was in 1080p mode). Once I power-cycled the player with the TV on and set to DVI2 then things would be OK. This does not seem to be a cable issue, since if things were OK at the very start, then they stayed OK for as long as both the player and TV were on. Also, it had the same behavior with two different cables. At first I thought it was the DVD player being a little flaky. The weird thing is, this kind of thing only happened for the first few hours I was playing with the DVD player. Then miraculously it became totally fine! It's like I "broke it in" or something. I could switch modes as often as I wanted, switch the TV to different input sources and back again, turn it on and off, and it always came back to displaying a clean 1080p signal from the DVD player. My only explanation is that I had to unplug the TV for a little bit at one point (another long story about why). I did not notice if everything started working OK immediately after that, but it definitely was not working OK before that. Maybe unplugging it cleaned out its little brain and it can now do the 1080p handshake/sychronization/whatever better (this TV seems to get weird bugs sometimes that go away when it's unplugged...like the remote not working). It's not a heat related thing or something, because everything worked just fine after I came home from work today, and both TV and DVD player had been off all day. I also notice that the set actually acts differently now in its new and improved state. Originally, if I switched to DVI2 from another source or if I switched the DVD player to 1080p from another resolution, the TV would blank for a second, then come back a little screwy (with the image artifacts I mentioned above). Now, it blanks for a second, comes back for a split second, then blanks *again* for a second, then comes back perfectly. When it does this double-blanking thing, it's perfect every time. Strange but true.

But back to the DVI1 vs. DVI2 thing. To me it seems that the TV is giving every indication that DVI2 is in fact the 1080p port optimized for computers and DVI1 is the 1080i port optimized for cable boxes. The other thing I notice is that when the cable box (a Motorola DCT6412III DVR from Comcast) is plugged into DVI1, it happily and automatically outputs 1080i to it and even detects that it has a 16:9 aspect ratio. On the other hand, if I plug it into DVI2 it thinks my TV is 4:3 and it only outputs 720p to it. I can force the DVR to output 1080i and to 16:9 aspect in its setup menu, but it just seems to me like more evidence that the TV's DVI2 is trying to act more like a DVI connection on a computer monitor (giving less info and negotiating the highest progressive resolution that both devices are capable of), while DVI1 seamlessly interfaces with my cable box.

Consequently, I have a suspicion that--at least for my particular unit--DVI2 and DVI1 are in fact switched around from what Westinghouse says they are. My 37w1 is a later production model (SN ends in 0545). Perhaps at some point in production, they decided to swap DVI1 and DVI2? It does kind of make sense to do this. DVI1 is probably the port that most people will plug they cable box or tuner into, and it's also the port that a retailer would plug their 1080i video source into when the TV is on display. But if so, would it now make sense to document this??! Or at least tell the tech support people?

Or maybe they just screwed up! Who knows. In any case, this is my experience. Great TV, but with bizarre bugs and a manual that's not only lacking in useful information, but now what little is in there may actually be wrong!

I hope this information is also useful to owners of the LVM-37w3 and LVM-42w2 (even though all digital inputs in these models are supposed to be 1080p capable). The moral of the story seems to be if one input fails, switch to another. You might get lucky. :)

Mofongo

MaCro

05-26-06, 01:43 AM

Chris Gerhard

05-26-06, 07:30 AM

Excellent job, Mofo...

Can someone send him their Oppo for comparison? I'm trying to contrast the all-around excellence of the Oppo with the 1080p capability of the 960. Either that, or someone send their 960 to be benchmarked by "Secrets"? :)

If you are waiting on a good Secrets benchmark before buying a Samsung player, you might not ever get one. I have the prior Samsung universal players and think they are very good despite the lower ratings. The Oppo is even better than the Samsung players over DVI, but terrible over component and it doesn't do SACD so for me the HD941 and HD950 are preferred over the DV971H. I do hope there will be either an HD1080 or HD960 review at Secrets, assuming the two will offer identical video performance.

Chris

Mofongo

05-26-06, 11:45 AM

I just thought of an interesting idea. It could be that the lvm-37w1 1080p DVI input actually bypasses the Genesis/Faroudja chip for 1080p signals (does anyone know if the Faroudja in the 37w1 can accept 1080p signals??). If so, then it might be my TV that is causes the radically difference black and white levels for 1080p (vs. 1080i/720p/480p) and not the HD960. Can somebody else out there with an HD960 and 1080p inputs on their TV try switching from 1080p to 1080i? I would be curious if you see a difference as well. For me the effect is very noticable. Even on the menu screen, you will notice instantly.

Thanks!

Mofongo

AlbertA

05-26-06, 11:52 AM

How about any info on the 1080?

I'm interested in the DVD-Audio and SACD over HDMI features....

jtundrea

05-26-06, 04:11 PM

I think the lvm-37w1 monitor has the FLI8638 (no HDMI) and the lvm-37w3 HDMI version has the FLI8548H

http://gnss.com/products/FLI8638%20Product%20Brief.pdf

The HD960 has the FLI2310LF

http://gnss.com/products/FLI2310%20Product%20Brief.pdf

You can see from the diagram that if the DVD passes through via DVI or HDMI 1080p it bypasses the Westy decoder and it looks like if it is already converted to 1080p it also bypasses the DCDI process from the Westy as well. I guess the thinking is why do DCDI processing and scaling when it is already 1080p which makes sense. The 1080p input signal does go through some additional enhancements with filtering, etc..

Is the BTB and white better at 720p/1080i via DVI the at 1080 input? If this is the case then the Westy process passing BTB and white then the HD960

You mentioned that Picture Quality is better on DVI correct.

Mofongo

05-26-06, 05:42 PM

I don't see what you are talking about at all in the diagrams for either of the 8638 or the 8548. How can you tell what the TV is doing based on the chip diagrams?? The system diagrams for each show digital inputs going into the chips. The function block diagrams are diagrams of the internal workings of the chips themselves. The 8638 says it can take 2 inputs for 24bit digital (which would be the 2 DVI ports at 8 bits per pixel). These inputs just go to the MUX bar like everything else. Unlike the analog inputs, they don't need a decoder/ADC before this step because they are already digital. But from the diagram, the only paths for the digital input ports are DCDi or PIP.

I am starting to agree with your conclusions, however, but for different reasons. Remember how I said yesterday that I was surprised that the screen for 1080p was brighter than 1080i and below? I discovered today that the lvm-37w1 seems to expect monitor RGB values (i.e. black=0, white=255) for 1080p! What I did yesterday was lower the black level (AKA brightness) of the HD960 from level 3 (default) to level 2, and I upped the white level (AKA contrast) from level 3 to level 4. Then I was able to adjust brightness+contrast on my TV to get the correct white and black levels. If I leave them at their default values, it is actually impossible to get a good white level at all.

So this got me thinking...and I noticed today that if I simply switch the HD960 to "monitor" output from "TV-RGB," I can use the exact same brightness/contrast settings as I do for 1080i set to "TV-RGB". In other words, I can calibrate the TV at 1080i with Avia (and leave the HD960 contrast and brightness at their default "level 3" settings, and output set to "TV-RGB"), then switch to 1080p and flip from "TV-RGB" to "Monitor" and everything will be perfectly calibrated again. Clearly, the TV expects studio levels for 1080i and below and monitor levels for 1080p.

This kind of makes sense...since the most likely 1080p source when the TV came out was a computer, making the TV go into monitor mode for a 1080p signal was probably a good idea. Also, it would seem to be further evidence that 1080p does indeed bypass the Genesis chip (through DVI at least...I dunno what happens with the VGA connector).

I don't really mind that it does this, I just wish they documented it! *sigh* Actually, the one annoying thing is that the HD960 resets to TV-RGB when I turn it off...it probably resets the value when it syncs with the TV when it turns on. So I have to go set this every time I turn on the DVD player. I am guessing that this is Westinghouse's fault and not the player.

You mentioned that Picture Quality is better on DVI correct.

Well, using DVI looks better than 480i over component from the HD960. Comparing 1080i from my DVR, DVI and component look about the same to me. The only way I can tell the difference is the DVR menu look just a teeny tiny bit fuzzy on component vs. crystal clear on DVI.

Mofongo

Chas1962

05-26-06, 06:06 PM

Chris Gerhard

05-26-06, 06:18 PM

Great thread guys! I just finished reading from 1st to last page. I just ordered the HD960 through Amazon.

I have a question. During this thread people kept mentioning adjustments with Avia and others. I did a search here and the resulting thread I read said that Avia was geared for crt and lcd (I think that is what it said). Anywho...I just purchased the Toshiba 62MX195 and I am going to use the HD960 with it. Not knowing to much about electronics, my question is what (if any) optimizer like Avia would best serve my needs for optimizeing these components.

Thanks in advance

An ISF professional (human being) would be the best optimizer. If you have the patience to mess with a calibration disc such as Avia or Video Essentials, then you should be able to improve your picture noticeably. I get terribly bored and frustrated when using Video Essentials, but it does help a little when I am finished.

Chris

Tarheel72

05-26-06, 06:25 PM

I think you can use either Avia or Digital Video Essentials, whichever you prefer. People seem to do OK with either one. I have used Avia in the past and it works OK. I have heard that DVE is a little light on insturctions and makes some assumptions that users know how to use some of the test patterns. So maybe if you are a first time user or not a real audiophile, you might like Avia better. I don't think you will go wrong with either. Heck, some people have just used the THX adjustments that come on some commercial DVD releases and seem to be happy with the results.

Chas1962

05-26-06, 07:16 PM

Thanks alot guys...I will do research on the 2 and see if it something I can work wih.

RTK

05-26-06, 10:04 PM

Look what arrived today. I hope to have some time to play this weekend.

DiscoNaldo

05-27-06, 10:14 AM

DiscoNaldo did you select Monitor as the format in the HD960 setup menu and does this help communicate between the HD960 and Westy 42" LCD via HDMI at 1080p?

Sorry I haven't updated in a while - I've been waiting on some HDMI cables from Monoprice (thinking maybe the cable that was included with the HD960 couldn't handle 1080p). They came yesterday... and still no luck.

To answer your question, I've tried all the different display formats from the menu - TV, Monitor, and RGB. For some damn reason, I keep getting booted back to 480p every time I try to select 1080p.

Next up: I'm going to try and run this thing through one of the DVI ports (should I get a Monster HDMI -> DVI adaptor?)... although I'm not really sure if that is going to make a difference - I'd be very surprised if it did.

Either way, I think my problem is localized - not widespread, which means it's either 1) the TV, or 2) the DVD player. Here's hoping it's the DVD player...

kusamba

05-27-06, 01:03 PM

zoro

05-27-06, 01:05 PM

Does it do pal to ntsc and can be made region free with remote?

jtundrea

05-27-06, 02:13 PM

DiscoNaldo the HDMI to DVI converter should work. Mofongo has a monitor with the same chip. Selecting either monitor ot TV RGB format and hopefully it should allow you to select 1080p output from the HD960 in the DVD player setup menu.

Mofongo do you prefer the picture quality in the monitor 1080p format as opposed to the TV RGB 1080p format. Are the BTB and white levels are better in monitor then TV RGB format.

Mofongo

05-27-06, 07:30 PM

Next up: I'm going to try and run this thing through one of the DVI ports (should I get a Monster HDMI -> DVI adaptor?)... although I'm not really sure if that is going to make a difference - I'd be very surprised if it did.

I have a Monster HDMI->DVI adapter that I got at Best Buy for $32, and it passes the 1080p signal with no problems. Probably you could mail order an adapter as well, but you would not really save all that much and you would have to wait even longer.

Best of luck! That really sucks that a *newer* Westinghouse model has even more problems with 1080p.

Mofongo

garden2828

05-27-06, 10:31 PM

Hello people! I've been reading this thread and it has been very helpful. I recently bought a Westinghouse LVM 42w2 and the Samsung hd960. I also had problems getting it to run 1080p with the pkgd HDMI cable. So I went to WALMART and bought myself a HDMI>DVI cable by PANASONIC (6ft, for $23.99). I plugged the HDMI to the HD960 and the DVI (1) to the Westy and boom I got a 1080p signal!!! But not without initial problems like MOFONGO with his Westy 37''. You guys should read his post on turning off the Westy and the Samsung and 'bout that "initial handshake" between the two systems. You just got to play with it until it goes through all its hiccups. The best way to do this is to turn off both systems (unplug them for 'bout a minute). Connect the HDMI>DVI cables. Turn on the Westy, then the SAMSUNG. Reset the SAMSUNG HD960 by pressing the "forward" button on the unit for 5 seconds to reset the unit. It should prompt you to select a preferred language. After that go to the MENU screen of the WESTY and make sure it's on STANDARD not FILL mode for the ASPECT ratio. Then go to the MENU screen for the SAMSUNG and go to the HDMI options screen. Choose MANUAL then select 1080p. It should come up and not turn you back to 480p (like it did with the HDMI cables). The pictures on screen might flicker on the intial get go, but play with the EZ screen option on the SAMSUNG and ASPECT ratios on the WESTY and should be fine. I initially tried connecting through the DVI2, but that was giving me the "green glow" on the sides with 1080p. So I switched to DV1 and it gave me the initial "flickering" screen, but after an hour or so of playing with it, it now plays 1080p DVDS. I'm new to this, so I don't know how to calibrate it for optimal performance. But I'm still happy on getting that 1080p signal. Its truly awesome to behold. Oh yeah don't even bother calling the SAMSUNG help line or Westinghouse, both don't know what they're talking about. Both suggested returning their respective consoles back, stating they were defective. Thanks to this board, everything's all right!

garden2828

05-27-06, 10:38 PM

Oh yeah, any recommendations for a home theater sound system? I'm in a tight budget, but want to get the best "BANG" for my buck. I was looking at a YAMAHA set at BEST BUY for $398. I don't lilke those sets that come with a DVD player, 'cause I already own the Samsung HD960, I'd prefer something with a AM/FM tuner instead. Any suggestions, guys?? Thanks.

friedman232

05-27-06, 11:25 PM

Mofongo

05-28-06, 01:02 AM

Mofongo do you prefer the picture quality in the monitor 1080p format as opposed to the TV RGB 1080p format. Are the BTB and white levels are better in monitor then TV RGB format.

Leaving the player in TV-RGB mode and with default contrast and brightness values actually makes it impossible to get a decent white level by adjusting only TV settings as it "crushes" the whites. There is basically no setting for TV contrast that calibrates the white level properly. The black level I can manage, but only by turning the TV brightness down quite a bit.

If set the player contrast to 4 and brightness to 2, then I can get a decent white and black level calibration with TV-RGB. Evidently, tweaking these values causes the player to actually output levels below 16 and above 238. The result is actually quite acceptable. However, I notice that I get ever-so-slightly better color depth with "monitor" mode and the calibration is more straightforward. So I use that.

Plus, the TV brightness and contrast settings for 1080i+TV-RGB are nearly identical to the settings for 1080p+monitor. This makes it easy to flip back and forth.

Mofongo

Mofongo

05-28-06, 01:22 AM

You just got to play with it until it goes through all its hiccups. ... it gave me the initial "flickering" screen, but after an hour or so of playing with it, it now plays 1080p DVDS.

That's interesting that you had the same experience. It is wacky...it almost seems like there is a "break in" period for this equipment. They act more like animals than microprocessor devices. It's like bringing home a second cat or something. You need a period of familarization before they play nicely with one another. WEIRD!

I love my Westinghouse 1080p display, especially for the price, but wow do these units have bizarre bugs!

I am glad you got everything working. DiscoNaldo, there is hope for you!

Mofongo

garden2828

05-28-06, 01:37 AM

Its more of a one time thing. Like I said after an hour of playing with the settings, the tv and the dvd player work fine all the time now, without any hiccups or any "ceremonial" procedures from me.

jtundrea

05-28-06, 10:33 AM

teddyc23

05-28-06, 11:48 AM

brezz

05-28-06, 11:54 AM

Has anyone tried this DVD player out with a Samsung HLS TV? I'm going to get the HLS-5687W and I am curious how this DVD player looks on this TV. Thanks!

Brian

Ebbit

05-28-06, 12:59 PM

garden2828

05-28-06, 04:31 PM

garden2828, DId you choose monitor or TV RGB as the format in the HD960 setup menu? If you choose monitor does it stay there once you turn off the Westy and HD960 or does it revert back to TV RGB liek mofongo.

I set my monitor to TV RGB, but to honestly tell I haven't really checked up on it since then... I'm just sooo happy to be getting 1080p. I'll let you know if it changed.

Mofongo

05-28-06, 05:23 PM

Thanks for thew helpful info Mofongo. I will receving my Samsung 960 next week from onecall.com. I was curious if the setting on the DVD player of Contrast 4(+4?) and Brightness 2(+2?) would be universal for other display types to pass BTB and avoid White Crush? I have a Toshiba 51HX93 rear projection CRT. I will use AVIA to calibrate when I reieve the DVD player. Is this EZ-View still working well with mininmal blocking and noise? Thanks for the updates.

It depends on your TV. The problem in my case was that my TV was telling the DVD player to send it studio RGB values, when in fact it really wanted monitor RGB values. Or it is possible that the TV was not saying anything at all, causing the DVD player to have to pick a default (which in my case was wrong).

If your TV is communicating with the player properly, you should not have to adjust the contrast or brightness output of the player. If you are lucky, display will take YCrCb, which--I believe--is only ever sent using studio values.

Mofongo

PooperScooper

05-28-06, 07:24 PM

The TV, via HDMI or DVI "handshaking" does not request anything. It will respond to what "features" (resolutions, etc) it supports when queried, but it will not make suggestions. :) How well this works depends on the player and TV, especially if the TV is DVI and the player is HDMI.

larry

jtundrea

05-28-06, 09:19 PM

Pooper Scooper so why wouldn't the HD960 not accept a 1080p HDMI output for the Westy 42" monitor 1080p display with HDMI input?

Mofongo

05-29-06, 02:54 AM

All of the home-burned media I have tried in the DVD-HD960 has worked without any problems at all. So far I have tried:

TDK 16X DVD+R (media code CMC MAG M01)
Sony 4X DVD-R (media code SONY04D1)
Verbatim 16X DVD-R (media code MCC 03RG20)
Verbatim 2.4X DVD+R DL (media code MKM 001)

The Verbatims were burned in an LG GSA-4166B burner, the Sonys in my Thinkpad's Ultrabay Slim multi-burner (Matsushita UJ-811), and the TDK in an unknown burner in my friend's workstation.

So far it looks like it is fairly robust with media.

Mofongo

jpaul

05-29-06, 02:44 PM

Mofongo and other owners of the HD960, at the risk of upsetting the relationship between your DVD player and television, would you mind trying 720p output in order to see if there is actually a perceivable difference between that and 1080p?

Also, if you were to set up the DVD player to output 1080i, how is the information different? Is it outputting half a screen of information 60Hz instead of a full screen 30Hz? Are the half frames matched up time-wise? I'm trying to understand my options here. Thanks much, even if its just a reference on the subject.

-JP

Mofongo

05-29-06, 07:19 PM

Mofongo and other owners of the HD960, at the risk of upsetting the relationship between your DVD player and television, would you mind trying 720p output in order to see if there is actually a perceivable difference between that and 1080p?

I did try 720p when I first got the unit. There was surprisingly little difference between that and 1080i. The thing that surprised me even more was that the motion still looked the same as on 1080i (which is to say, slightly less smooth than 1080p). That could be more an artifact of my TV, however.

Also, if you were to set up the DVD player to output 1080i, how is the information different? Is it outputting half a screen of information 60Hz instead of a full screen 30Hz? Are the half frames matched up time-wise? I'm trying to understand my options here. Thanks much, even if its just a reference on the subject.

This is actually a very complicated subject. :) A good reference is Jim Taylor's Official DVD FAQ (http://www.thedigitalbits.com/officialfaq.html), especially sections 1.40 and 3.8.

The short answer is that with 1080i, the 1st field transmits the odd scan lines (540 in total) and the 2nd field transmits the even lines (another 540). When woven together, these make a full 1080 line image/frame. Thus it takes 1/30th of a second (2 fields at 1/60th) to send the entire 1080 lines. With 1080p, the full 1080 lines are sent every field. Normally, this would actually make a really big difference. In reality, for most film based sources (which is what most people watch on DVDs) there are 24 film frames per second. This means that the intrinsic framerate of the movie is actually less than an interlaced video signal. This means that you do not necessarily gain much from 1080p vs 1080i. And even with DVD recordings of broadcast TV, the frames are stored as interlaced on the DVD anyway.

Mofongo

Patsfan123

05-29-06, 08:23 PM

I'm most interested in this player because it can do divx/xvid. Has anytried xvid coded video with mp3 audio and ac3 5.1 audio? Do they play smoothly even when upconverted to 1080p? Also do the aspect ratios display correctly for movies that are recorded in 2.35:1 and 16:9 on the 16:9 screen? My roommate had an older philips player that did xvid. However when you set the player to widescreen, the xvids still played like it was 4:3 tv so they were vertically squashed. Thanks

zoro

05-30-06, 11:14 AM

Did any one get 1080P changer version yet?

Artwood

05-30-06, 11:58 AM

I've asked the question in the 1366X768 Input accepting over HDMI thread but maybe this might be a better place to ask it--does anybody have a 1080p input accepting over HDMI set and have they fed it upconverted 1080p from one of these Samsung players over HDMI?

What looks better--the 1080p from the Samsungs over HDMI or ouputing another resolution and letting the TV set that they own do all the conversion work? An answer heer or in the 1366X768 Input accepting over HDMI thread would be appreciated!

teddertots

05-30-06, 12:01 PM

Has anyone tried this DVD player out with a Samsung HLS TV? I'm going to get the HLS-5687W and I am curious how this DVD player looks on this TV. Thanks!

Brian

I believe there was a poster earlier in the thread who had hooked it up to an HLS set and after initial disappointment seemed to find the picture acceptable after some tweaking.

I spent quite some time last night trying to get my new 960 tweaked to my satisfaction with my HL-S6187 (connected via Monoprice HDMI) but am sadly disappointed in the results. Compared to the 5 year old 480p over component Pioneer I was planning on replacing, I could definitely see an improvement in the clarity of certain things, such as text for example, but the picture nose, banding, and macroblocking issues I encountered were quite a surprise. It seems I've read this is fairly common when pairing a Faroudja based player with DLP? I had high hopes this player would be a good match for the new HLS sets but I could not attain a picture I was satisfied with. :(

Any other HLS owners out there have any better results with the 960?

Neuromancer

05-30-06, 02:35 PM

One of my friends bought the DVD-HD960. Opened her up and noted that it is using a Faroudja FLI-2301 chipset in conjunction with a Zoran Vadis 886 decoder.

An interesting design choice is the three ground prongs on the top of the unit, which helps ground the front panel to the metal exterior (in this case, the cover). One of the prongs was bent the wrong way, but nothing to be worried about.

Will try to take some pictures.

EDIT: Here are some images I quickly grabbed with my craptastic digital camera
Zoran Vaddis 886 Decoder (http://home.comcast.net/~lost-toys/Zoran_Vaddis_886.jpg)
Faroudja FLI-2301-LF chipset (http://home.comcast.net/~lost-toys/FLI-2301-LF.jpg)
DVD-HD960 Mainboard Overview (http://home.comcast.net/~lost-toys/DVD-HD960_Mainboard.JPG)
Grounding Clips (http://home.comcast.net/~lost-toys/Ground_Clips.jpg)
I decided not to meta these images, as 4 images at 800x600 would completely destroy this page.

Neuromancer

05-30-06, 02:42 PM

I believe there was a poster earlier in the thread who had hooked it up to an HLS set and after initial disappointment seemed to find the picture acceptable after some tweaking.

I spent quite some time last night trying to get my new 960 tweaked to my satisfaction with my HL-S6187 (connected via Monoprice HDMI) but am sadly disappointed in the results. Compared to the 5 year old 480p over component Pioneer I was planning on replacing, I could definitely see an improvement in the clarity of certain things, such as text for example, but the picture nose, banding, and macroblocking issues I encountered were quite a surprise. It seems I've read this is fairly common when pairing a Faroudja based player with DLP? I had high hopes this player would be a good match for the new HLS sets but I could not attain a picture I was satisfied with. :(

Any other HLS owners out there have any better results with the 960?

I would highly recommend that you read the following and corresponding threads on AVS forums about Macroblocking (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7270763#post7270763) and Samsung (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5120358&&#post5120358). DLP calibration:

Gary (GSB) goes to great lengths exploring proper calibration for the Samsung line of DLP displays. Once you dial it in, the picture should look stunning.

Artwood

05-30-06, 04:25 PM

Maybe the picture the Samsung HD-960 would have on a Samsung HLS set would be much different than the picture over a Panasonic TH-50PX60u Plasma set which would accept 1080p over HDMI. maybe the set has alot to do with it regardless of whether it has to do much of the copnversion work or a small amount of the conversion work? Anyone tried the Samsung HD-960 DVD player with a 1366X768 plasma?

jtundrea

05-30-06, 07:33 PM

Neuromancer when you opened the HD960 was there a Zoran HDXtreme ZR36721 chip which provides HD JPEG over HDMI.

Neuromancer

05-30-06, 08:25 PM

Neuromancer when you opened the HD960 was there a Zoran HDXtreme ZR36721 chip which provides HD JPEG over HDMI.

There was no such chipset on the DVD player. It looks like there is no native HD JPEG support over HDMI on the DVD-HD960. I checked the user manual as well, and there is no reference to HD JPEG support as well.

jtundrea

05-31-06, 01:23 AM

It does mention HD JPEG on the HD960 data sheet:

http://www.samsung.com/Products/DVDPlayer/Hi_DefConversionDVDPlayers/files/dvdhd960_final.pdf

Neuromancer

05-31-06, 01:39 AM

It does mention HD JPEG on the HD960 data sheet:

http://www.samsung.com/Products/DVDPlayer/Hi_DefConversionDVDPlayers/files/dvdhd960_final.pdf

Will check the manual again, and try a CD with some files on them if I have time.

jpaul

05-31-06, 01:59 AM

Okay, so here's another question I was unable to find an answer to: when a progressive upconvert DVD player outputs 1080i, has it internally converted to progressive frames and then re-interlaced the material from the _new_ progressive source, or simply scaled the original interlaced frames? Of course, for film based-sources, it doesn't much matter, but for video-based sources, the re-interlaced material would be significantly different than the original interlaced material.

Please check my understanding on the following:

interlaced content from a film source is quite easy to convert back to the original progressive frames, and display on a progressive set.

interlaced content from a video source is difficult to convert to progressive frames (this should be the _only_ time we'd need DCDi and other 'smart' logic, right?)

Essentially, I'm wondering if there is any difference in the information content of a 1080p/1080i datastream from a DVD player for film and video-based source, respectively.

I hope that at least someone else in this thread is learning something with me. :)

James Parker

05-31-06, 02:19 AM

FYI: I just tested to learn that the HD860 does not support DA (Digital Audio) via HDMI (bummer), and it actually puts up a warning prompt stating, "HDMI Audio not supported", when selecting 'Bitstream' within the DVD menu (it plays audio fine via PCM mode, tho). This is really asinine of Samsung to do this!

Questions:

1: I would imagine the HD960 has the same issue. Can anyone confirm?

2: With that being said, does anyone know of any DVD upconvert player that will do what I'm seeking (output DA via HDMI)?

I hope this helps others!

Regards,

James

Neuromancer

05-31-06, 02:48 AM

FYI: I just tested to learn that the HD860 does not support DA (Digital Audio) via HDMI (bummer), and it actually puts up a warning prompt stating, "HDMI Audio not supported", when selecting 'Bitstream' within the DVD menu (it plays audio fine via PCM mode, tho). This is really asinine of Samsung to do this!

You can't transmit a DTS stream through the HDMI output, but you can use Dolby Digital. The DVD-HD960 defaults to DTS audio stream when you set DTS to On. Unfortunately, it can't pass DTS through HDMI. Try selecting the Dolby Digital track (Audio button or through the DVD title's menu).

I verified this on some televisions I tried it on. I don't have a HDMI receiver, so I can't comment on how it operates.

NorthJersey

05-31-06, 10:40 AM

these dvd players aren't using hdmi v1.3, so the DD stream sent over HDMI is 2.0. Therefore you need to run a digital optical(or coax) cable from the dvd player to your receiver and then choose bitstream to receive DTS or DD5.1 audio.

jtundrea

05-31-06, 12:03 PM

According to the Vaddis 8 datasheet it has the JPEGXtreme function built in the chip and does not need the HDXtreme chip that the Vaddis 778 chip needed to display HD JPEG.

http://www.zoran.com/IMG/pdf/Vaddis8.pdf

The HD960 has the Zoran 886 chip (ZR38886 mentioned in the data sheet - third bullet from the bottom) as a decoder. This 886 chip does not have SACD2.0 like the Vaddis 888 chip.

Neuromancer

05-31-06, 12:18 PM

Tarheel72

05-31-06, 12:23 PM

That would explain it. Though I could have sworn I did not see any mention of HD JPEG support in the manual. I will have to check it again (either download it or see if my friend still has the manual at work).

But, wouldn't be suprised if it is in there, just not in the place I would normally expect.

What??? Something not in the normal place in a Samsung manual??? Unheard of! Everyone knows that their user manuals are well organized, complete, free of errors and accurately translated. This obviously is a first of its kind mistake.

Neuromancer

05-31-06, 12:49 PM

I always feel like a hardware newbie every time I get a new toy, as everyone's manual is layed out in some ill conceived manner. I think they do it just to toy with us.

What is odd is that they list their DivX specifications, and warnings about the maximum file volume for picture CDs, but nothing about the maximum, unfiltered resolution of a JPEG. Though HD JPEG is listed in their brochure and "Key Features" on their website.

jtundrea

05-31-06, 01:16 PM

If you check the HD860 manual it mentions how to display HD JPEG which uses the Vaddis 888 chip as decoder/deinterlacer and upscaler. This is not mentioned in the HD960 manual which has the Vaddis 886 decoder.

There should be a difference if you view the JPEG in component (I'm not sure it can display JPEG) and in HDMI.

Chris Gerhard

05-31-06, 05:18 PM

I have owned quite a few Samsung audio/video products, including several different DVD players, TiVos, and the legendary STB, the SIR-T165. I do like the products but goofy manuals and quirky things are commonplace and the new HD960 and HD1080 probably won't be an exception.

Chris

teddyc23

06-01-06, 10:54 AM

I finally recieved my Samsung HD-960. The picture was pretty good. Looked similar to my Panasonic S97. I did notice that my picture through DVI is shifted an inch or 2 down. The zoom was OK. Seemed better than the S97. I did decide to return the player. My Xbox 360 has a better quality zoom and I figured there is no point in paying top dollar for 1080P when my TV cant use it. Instead I ordered a Sony NS75H. Thanks to all for your help.

Teddy

DiscoNaldo

06-01-06, 01:46 PM