http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/LG-Home-Theater-System-LH-T9654S-/sem/rpsm/oid/145836/catOid/-12954/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do
Looks to have all the featues one could want , speakers are not terrible (5 minute store audition) , decent subwoofer with adjustable level from the remote. At less than $300 ( 279) in-store ,looks to be a decent rig. I have my own front speakers and would only be using the center and rears , so speaker quality is not a deal-breaker. The one thing I can't find for it is a spec sheet ~ even LG's US headquarters are not yet updated! Any asian connections with more P00P on this product ?

TIA
Jorge

Yes, I am in the same boat. Interested in the combination of Home Theater and upconverting DVD player in one box. Cannot find much information from google either.

Yes, I am in the same boat. Interested in the combination of Home Theater and upconverting DVD player in one box. Cannot find much information from google either.

Why not go for a separate receiver and surround speakers that might match your front one. Just a thought.

I'd like to get all the electronics in one gulp , rather than a stack of boxes.
One box , one remote , one set of speakers.
my 2c
Jorge

I picked up the LG HTIB 2 weeks ago from Circuit City. There isnt much info out there on this HTIB but dont make that a reason why you should not purchase this set.

I am still in AWWW on how great these sound and the picture quality of the upconversion. For less than 300 dollars, this has been one of my better investments in a long time.

Not only does the receiver play DVD's, it plays DIVX and many more formats. You can even hook up your MP3 Player to it and detects is automatically. A+ rating from me.

Think I'll pull the trigger on it , I'm getting laminate dropped into the family room, so I'm gonna run a buncha cables under it tommorrow, for sub and speakers.
As many strange media formats come my way the decoding ability will be tested :rolleyes: BTW , will the play do dual layer burned media?

TIA
Jorge

I've been in agony debating which one of these systems to purchase, that being this LG or the Samsung HT-Q70, also for sale at Circuit City for around $350. They both match up to be about the same in terms of specs, but the LG has a downward-firing sub and the speakers are quite clear. The Sammy isn't far behind, if at all, but doesn't have that good of a sub (neither are powered), but it does have the convenience of a 5-disc changer. I'm buying tomorrow, and I think we'll end up going with Samsung, as we're also buying a Slimfit, either the Sammy or the LG. We'll buy whatever system matches the TV, and I'm very torn. Thoughts or recommendations anyone?

The LG also has a digitally amped receiver, they tend to be quite powerful.

How is the subwoofer hooked up? does it derive its power from the receiver, or is it seperately powered?

-----------------

Basically I would look and see how easily the speakers and sub can be upgraded. If they can be upgraded to standard speakers and a powered sub, this looks to be a good choice.

If they cant easily be upgraded, then it is what it is ... you can always move it to the bedroom when your ready for real speakers in the main room :)

I picked the LH-T9654 up from Circuit City just yesterday. The sound is awesome! I was quite surprised with the amount of bass that came out of the sub since its not separately.

Unfortunately, I think it just came out as there is no info to be found about it on LG's website. I have a question about the HDMI so maybe another owner can help. My TV is hooked up to the LG's receiver through HDMI and it works great for playing DVD's or browsing media through the USB, but when I switch over to AV1 or AV2 I can't get any video through the HDMI. Anyone know if this is even possible, or do I just need to run a separate S-video cable to the TV for the AV1 and AV2 sources?

couple of questions for those who bought it.

whta kind of inputs are there?
can the rear speakers be wall mounted?
any other impressions/ what are the weak points?

cheers

1) Output: HDMI, S-Video, Component, Composite, Headphones
Input: 2 AV-IN (RCA), 1 optical

2) All speakers (except sub of course) can be mounted

3) Sound is quite impressive. Only weak point I'd say is the fact that I can't get AV sources to output through HDMI.

According to the rep at LG , up-conversion from the AV1 and 2 inputs is not a valid function.
Any input from these ports will be sent out to the composite out (Monitor jack).
AARGH! I'm going to have to use the Sanyo's optical out to feed into the reciever's input for surround. Any suggestions on hookup?
TIA to all
Jorge

According to the rep at LG , up-conversion from the AV1 and 2 inputs is not a valid function.
Any input from these ports will be sent out to the composite out (Monitor jack).
AARGH! I'm going to have to use the Sanyo's optical out to feed into the reciever's input for surround. Any suggestions on hookup?
TIA to all
Jorge

isn't upconversion onlythrough the hdmi port normally?

isn't upconversion onlythrough the hdmi port normally?
Yes it is , but in the LG's case , signals applied to the AV1 and 2 inputs are not up-converted and sent out the HDMI port. Therefore I have to use two different inputs on the TV for cable feed and DVD respectively

Yes it is , but in the LG's case , signals applied to the AV1 and 2 inputs are not up-converted and sent out the HDMI port. Therefore I have to use two different inputs on the TV for cable feed and DVD respectively

Now i'm lost....is this only if you do not have an hdmi port on your tv....if not, is their any onther HTIB in the same price range that does this?

Now i'm lost....is this only if you do not have an hdmi port on your tv....if not, is their any onther HTIB in the same price range that does this?
I do have an HDMI port on my TV , I'd like to use it for all the input sources.

I do have an HDMI port on my TV , I'd like to use it for all the input sources.

I guess im totally lost here...can u give an example of what u mean by upconverting through av1 and av2? Im interested in buying this LG, but i'm missing something here

OK , here goes....
AV1 and AV2 are both analog inputs , let's say from a VCR and TIVO.
What I'd like is those inputs ( low -res) scanned up by the reciever and piped out the HDMI jack to the TV in 1080i resolution.
Hope this makes sense :) Anyone else with any input ?(ouch! bad pun!)
HTH
Jorge

OK , here goes....
AV1 and AV2 are both analog inputs , let's say from a VCR and TIVO.
What I'd like is those inputs ( low -res) scanned up by the reciever and piped out the HDMI jack to the TV in 1080i resolution.
Hope this makes sense :) Anyone else with any input ?(ouch! bad pun!)
HTH
Jorge

AHHHHHH
Is there any HTIB with that capabilty out there?

just bought this htib yesterday A+. the layout of the unit is slick and visually appealing. The performance is stellar for a $300.00 dolllar unit but i must point out that the bass is on the sloppy side. I turned the bass all the way down on the sound menu and this seems to help a bit. so far the fit and finish seems good but i must note the manual is written horribly. all in all i compared this with samsung ht-q70 and i thought this was the better deal.

-suprised at subs extension and impact but unimpressed by its sloppiness
-supplied speakers are more than capable considering the price.
-gets quite loud and can play at high volumes for an extended time without overheating no problem
-visually very good looking, nice on screen menus, decent remote control
-good dvd player but divx playback can be spotty(still will play 90% of my divx media)
-plenty inputs in back
-radio seemed to have very good reception(both am and fm) even in my house which is notorious for giving radios a hard time


good choice to make if ur in 300-400 htib range for one for a medium sized room or smaller
:)

ps anyone have any further questions about the unit feel free to ask me and i can see if i can help. :)

I've found adding a little stuffing to the vent and laying it on its side lowers the tuning and tightens up the bass a bit. Grab a sock or two and try it out ; easy to try and reversible.
HTH
Jorge

Whats the verdict on this HTiB? I'm in a small/medium apartment, don't own a DVD player, would like upscaling/HDMI, and am on a under $300 budget. Do you guys think this system would fit the bill?

I'm using mine in a 28' X 15 ' room; the sub tweak will help the bass a bit.
How big a room will you be using?

HTH
Jorge

Does this upcovert to 720p alos, or just 1080i?

I'm thinking about picking one of these up for my 42" dell plasma with motorolla dual-tuner DVR STB. The STB has optical audio out that I plan on connecting to the home theater. Does optical audio make that much of a difference that I should make a point to purchase a home theater reciever that has it? I currently have my STB connected to my TV via component (I couldn't tell the difference between component and HDMI) and it will remain that way, with the new home theater connected to the TV with HDMI.

How would this system work with an xbox or future consoles? Would I be able to play them on the 5.1 speakers without sacrificing video quality? I currently have my xbox connected to my TV via component cables as well and DVD's look pretty good.

Finally, I live in a pretty small apartment, and I don't usually listen to television at levels greater that what is needed to hear low conversation. Will this system be overkill for me or should I get something cheaper? Basically I am just looking to upgrade from the 2 speakers that came with the TV to something that will give a more theatre-like experience.

Flaco,
How much speaker wire comes with the system, especially for rear speakers? I'm looking to buy this unit for my Florida room.

Looks like about 30 ft or so. Mighty thin :(

I just went out to CC and got one yesterday. After a bit of tweaking, I got the sound I wanted. Turned SW all the way down, stuffed a towel in the port to tighten the bass and using XTS Pro-P mode. Virtual also works well on some sources. Very impressive for a $280 system! Thanks for the info previous to my purchase.

What display are you using with it?

An older Sony 36" 4:3 HDTV. Does not take advantage of the HDMI since the only inputs are component, but the sound is fantastic! BTW, I originally bought a Sony HDMI DVD player for my Sony 50" LCD and returned it. No noticeable difference. Called Sony and the tech said it would not make a difference on my set. More lines did not make for a better pic. More hype than reality, IMO. I bought it for the audio.

Anyone know the mounting hole thread size on these speakers? I know i can hang them on a screw, but i want to angel them down? Will the omni mount ones for the bose cubes work?

Has anyone noticed audio sync problems when the with audio out from tv to the receiver? I notice that it is "delayed" a little bit if you have sound going through the speakers and then turn the volume up on the tv you can hear it. Is that normal? There is no "delay" if i have the audio going from the stb to the receiver.

is anybody able to get the optical input working on this? I've already made sure the wire was fine. it worked on my other receiver. I tested it on the tv out, playstaion, and cable out optical inputs still no sound. Any help would be appreciated.

i've been doing some research on the site and i've noticed that for the optical input to work it has to be set to "digital" On my screen i see the letter "PCM" apparently I need to to set it to bitsteam in order to accept digital sound. Soooooo how do i set it to accept digital/bitstream?

Thanks again

I can't get true Dolby Digitial 5.1 from my Motorola DVR with the optical cable. That PCM or Digital 5.1 screen message only appears while playing a DVD, right? If you have seen it appear when in TV mode on the optical input, how did you do that?

Any more happy owners of the LG LH-T9654S system? How is the center channel speaker?

So far i am impressed.

Would like to know what people's opinions are of the differect surround modes, the XTS-pro vs the others.

It appears the XTS-pro would be the mode you would listen to when you have a 5.1 DVD or HD programming (I have D* and am getting HD D* in 2 weeks).

Thanks.

So far i am impressed.

Would like to know what people's opinions are of the differect surround modes, the XTS-pro vs the others.

It appears the XTS-pro would be the mode you would listen to when you have a 5.1 DVD or HD programming (I have D* and am getting HD D* in 2 weeks).

Thanks.

So far, I have been leaving XTS and Virtual modes off (bypassed) because I don't really understand what they do. (The manual is not that helpful.) I would appreciate, too, if someone knows when it's best to use these modes.

I've been having nothing but trouble with the USB connection. Has anyone on this thread gotten it to work properly and if so how? I appreciate the help. I've been searching everywhere and no help.

Small USB key works fine but I'm trying a 60G USB2 drive. I've tried formatting it 60G (FAT32) and 30G and 30G (FAT32) as well. When I try to select say Music and the folder named Root it just sits there.

I have tried putting everything on the root and also some folders off root (music, images, video) with no luck.

The manual is useless.

Thanks again,

Vince

Thought some people may want to know.

I was able to get a price adjustment since I bought mine 2 weeks ago.

I saw this system in the weekly ad and, more out of curiosity about the quality of an LG system, scoured the web for reviews. Almost universally everyone was praising this system so I figured I would go into the store to try it out for myself.

I grabbed Saving Private Ryan, a DMB concert and my ipod. You will need to convince the sales guys to get the remote control from the back so you can try out the USB mode as well as the various sound features (really just XTS pro which is their equivalent to THX.)

Anyway, the system sounds phenomenal. I bought it last night, hooked it up this morning and tossed LOST season 1, ep1 in for the aircraft engine explosion. It rocks! I'm only using a 480i (interlaced, old regular 27" tv) but everything plays and passes through just fine. I connected my shuffle and it sounds amazing.

Setup was VERY easy. You don't really need the manual, it's all very intuitive.

All in all, I'm VERY pleased with the system. There are maybe four things I wish it could do but given the price, again I'm happy with it. I wish it could:
1.) control the cable box;
2.) could read more than just the filename of my mp3s when using usb;
3.) randomize the selections of the mp3's i program, and
4.) read playlists.

Additionl info for people --
Manual says you cannot connect phones or cameras to the usb port.
Hardrives/USB devices neet to be fat16 or fat32. Extended partitions cannot be read.
Only reads pictures with .jpg extension so rename accordingly.
Only reads music with mp3 or wma extensions.

Has anyone noticed audio sync problems when the with audio out from tv to the receiver? I notice that it is "delayed" a little bit if you have sound going through the speakers and then turn the volume up on the tv you can hear it. Is that normal? There is no "delay" if i have the audio going from the stb to the receiver.

I AM HAVING THE SAME PROBLEM.

When watching tv I have some audio synch issues (audio has slight delay from picture) and I cant seem to figure it out.

I have the LG 37 inch LCD
I have comcast HD box going to the tv using component cables.
I have the LG LH-T9654S SURROUND connected to the tv thru HDMI cable.
I have RCA audio out from TV to AV in on the LG LH-T9654S... so TV is AV 2 on the LG LH-T9654S.

Everything is synched perfect with a DVD playing.. The only trouble is with TV and I have the AV SYNCH on the LG LH-T9654S set to the lowest ms (0ms) I have played around with the AV SYNCH (it goes from 0ms to 300ms) and cant seem to get it any closer...


ANY CLUE? :mad:

I AM HAVING THE SAME PROBLEM.

When watching tv I have some audio synch issues (audio has slight delay from picture) and I cant seem to figure it out.

I have the LG 37 inch LCD
I have comcast HD box going to the tv using component cables.
I have the LG LH-T9654S SURROUND connected to the tv thru HDMI cable.
I have RCA audio out from TV to AV in on the LG LH-T9654S... so TV is AV 2 on the LG LH-T9654S.

Everything is synched perfect with a DVD playing.. The only trouble is with TV and I have the AV SYNCH on the LG LH-T9654S set to the lowest ms (0ms) I have played around with the AV SYNCH (it goes from 0ms to 300ms) and cant seem to get it any closer...


ANY CLUE? :mad:

Does your comcast HD box have an optical out? Why not connect that (instead of the TV audio out) to the LG optical in. I don't have the LH -E9674 (yet) but that's how I have my current setup. That way I get 5.1 on all broadcast channels with my RCN hd box.

I just saw the LH-E9674 in my BB circular. Price drop, too. Looks like an nice system for the price. I've never owned LG except for my dynamite Vizio plasma which is, apparently, a rebadged LG.

I was wondering if anyone can give a review of how audio cds sound? Clean? Good presence? etc...It's not a carousel, correct? Is the changer quiet? Can you set up random play from different loaded cds?

Has anyone tried using a impedence-matching speaker switch box to power a second pair of speakers (in another room)? I see the Fronts are rated 4-ohm so that should work...

Is the remote back-lit?

Does it come with any sort of auto-calibration system?

Sorry for all the questions. I'll probably go ahead and order one what with BB's generous return policy..

Audio cds could be louder, there is NO changer, its front loading.
No backlit remote.
No auto calibration.

its a good value for 275, but its not the greatest... I am having audio synch issues.

hope that helps you.



I just saw the LH-E9674 in my BB circular. Price drop, too. Looks like an nice system for the price. I've never owned LG except for my dynamite Vizio plasma which is, apparently, a rebadged LG.

I was wondering if anyone can give a review of how audio cds sound? Clean? Good presence? etc...It's not a carousel, correct? Is the changer quiet? Can you set up random play from different loaded cds?

Has anyone tried using a impedence-matching speaker switch box to power a second pair of speakers (in another room)? I see the Fronts are rated 4-ohm so that should work...

Is the remote back-lit?

Does it come with any sort of auto-calibration system?

Sorry for all the questions. I'll probably go ahead and order one what with BB's generous return policy..

Flaco,
How much speaker wire comes with the system, especially for rear speakers? I'm looking to buy this unit for my Florida room.

Just measured the included speaker wire last night -- two pieces of 33' each, four pieces of 12' each. It is very thin; the entire 100+' wadded up is about the size of a human heart (OK -- about the size of my two fists; that little bit of biology class just bubbled to the top ...).

The User's Guide is now up on the LG web site, by the way. I had to go to the User's Guide section and search for the model; the link from the model page to the User's Guide wasn't there yet.

FWIW, from the user's guide it appears that you could use the component video output for both upconverted and low-definition output, but the HDMI will only do high-definition; it's very clear that's true from the user's guide. I'm going to use HDMI and add an S-video cable for low-definition.

According to the rep at LG , up-conversion from the AV1 and 2 inputs is not a valid function.
Any input from these ports will be sent out to the composite out (Monitor jack).
AARGH! I'm going to have to use the Sanyo's optical out to feed into the reciever's input for surround. Any suggestions on hookup?
TIA to all
Jorge

I'm reading this because I just told my mother to buy an LG HTIAB. If that is the worst thing about this, that's not bad at all. Funny thing, the guy at BB seems to think it will take several hours to hook this up.

So, anybody using one of these things with "real" speakers?

Will this function like a normal receiver where I can set the speakers to large, or does it require the use of a sub? I would be wanting it mainly to amp my office rig which is 2.0 DiY speakers.

Also, a couple posts back mentioned that the component video could carry upconverted signal. Does that mean that it can send 720p and higher via component? Anyone trying that?

Kensai

This describes my two-day internet journey into selecting the right HTIB for my optoma hd70 DLP projector. I was only vaguely interested in HTS, but after seeing the glowing AVS thread for the optoma hd70, it seems clear that it's time for the novice to take the home-theater plunge if you want a 106" plasma-like experience for $1,000 (no tax and no shipping).

After seeing the ad in circuit city for this $260 + tax LG LHT9645S, i did a search and found this thread. Yes, it looks like a really good system for the average theater goer and it's at a great price. I also researched CNET and looked around here and only came up with the $400 Sony DAV-FX500 and the $480 Samsung HT-TQ85 as good alternatives that differ from this LG by having tower speakers and 5-disk changer. All 3 systems are 1000 Watt Mainly I wanted to be sure to get the best sound and lots of connections in the back. Tower speakers can be dismantled for wall mounting and save $60 or more on 2 to 4 speaker stands, improves appearance, and is flexible.

I decided against the Sony because there seems to be a question mark about the sound quality on a similar Sony system. I made this questionable decision even after reading 7 customer reviews in Amazon and CNET that were all positive and it's probably more attractive and definitely better-constructed than the Samsung or LG. My personal experience with sony from a wide variety of small electronics is that they are always excellent in sound, construction, and style. There was not a detailed professional CNET review. The only complaints about the Sony were that it was not loud enough for those who like things loud and inserting a new disk is slow. The 2 amazon reviews were 4 out of 5 stars.

CNET reviews listed the Samsung at the top of a list giving it 'only' 8 out of 10 so i was biased in favor of it. Also, the 2 amazon reviews were 5 star. The CNET reviewer seemed to think it was one of the best systems in all aspects of sound and capabilities, including powerful sound and a USB input as well as HDMI input and output, even if the input is just a splitter or something. It's a little concerning that there were several places to get this refurbished making me wonder about reliability, but lowering the cost. I found a "refurbished to new condition" Samsung HT-TQ85 for $388 after shipping (an amazon seller with good reviews) so it's $102 more (33%) than the LG after local tax: $260+$26 = $286.

Summary
The LG may be just as good in sound as the Sony and Samsung and anything else that costs less than $500. At least that's the best we can gather from the internet. The Sony and Samsung may be more expensive only because they have the 5 disk changer and tower speakers. Sony has the looks, but the Samsung will have the more powerful sound. Find a good price, and all 3 seem to be a the best buys, but the LG appears to have the best sound/price ratio if you don't need tower speakers.

Just an hour after making the post above, i got to actually try the LG with the Samsung and Sony systems (all side-by-side in the store and all 1000 Watt) with the same CD. Frankly, this the gist of this whole thread is wrong. The LG has a cheap hollow sound. Period. Case closed. There's no adjustments you can do to fix or hide the cheap sound. The Sony is supreme on the high notes. It seems to be missing the notes just above the range of the woofer, which is a fair amount of important stuff for home theater. The Samsung is best overall. Maybe with adjusting i would be able to get sharper high notes out.

Sorry, the LG is not a good buy if you want good sound. I am not a perfectionist or an audio afficianado, but i have a good ear. I guess most people will not notice enough of a difference to care. I didn't even need to compare side by side. The LG on it's own without comparing was bad enough for me to know i was not listening to good audio. It was the first one i listened to. I thought it was a bad CD recording.

If you have to have the least expensive HTIB, the LG is a good choice. If you want good suond, disable the surround sound except for the woofer and use a good portable radio boom box for the two front speakers.

I need some help!! ok, I'm a newbie to home theater setup and I am running into some problems. I have a sony kds50e2000, an xbox 360 and the Lg LH-t9654s home theater system. I hooked the dvd player to my tv using the hdmi cable and it works properly, playing sound out of all speakers. The xbox 360 is connected with an optical cable to the dvd player and it works properly. I have the tv audio outs hooked to the audio inputs on the dvd player. I do not get surround when watching tv. Only the front left and right speakers play. I tried hd channels and regular channels. Please help me out and let me know what I'm doing wrong. The LG instruction manual is garbage.

Great system for the bucks. Wireless adapter works well also for rear speakers.

I need some help!! ok, I'm a newbie to home theater setup and I am running into some problems. I have a sony kds50e2000, an xbox 360 and the Lg LH-t9654s home theater system. I hooked the dvd player to my tv using the hdmi cable and it works properly, playing sound out of all speakers. The xbox 360 is connected with an optical cable to the dvd player and it works properly. I have the tv audio outs hooked to the audio inputs on the dvd player. I do not get surround when watching tv. Only the front left and right speakers play. I tried hd channels and regular channels. Please help me out and let me know what I'm doing wrong. The LG instruction manual is garbage.

If you're using the rca connections from the TV, that's your problem. You need to have a digital connection for surround to work, either optical or digital coax.

Has anyone noticed audio sync problems when the with audio out from tv to the receiver? I notice that it is "delayed" a little bit if you have sound going through the speakers and then turn the volume up on the tv you can hear it. Is that normal? There is no "delay" if i have the audio going from the stb to the receiver.

The audio on a receiver and the TV are usally not perfectly in sync. Better receivers have a variable delay to fix this, but if it's close enough that you only notice it when they are both playing, don't bother worrying about it.

If you're using the rca connections from the TV, that's your problem. You need to have a digital connection for surround to work, either optical or digital coax.


If he uses Dobly PLx II, wouldn't that give him surround from the RCA connection?

Has anyone noticed audio sync problems when the with audio out from tv to the receiver? I notice that it is "delayed" a little bit if you have sound going through the speakers and then turn the volume up on the tv you can hear it. Is that normal? There is no "delay" if i have the audio going from the stb to the receiver.

I have also noticed this and it is annoying. My tv has an A/V sync built in but I still was not able to get them to sync up.

I was able to get surround to work using the pro logic 2 feature, but the reciever always goes back to bypass every time I change an input or power off. Is there a way to make pro logic 2 the default for an input?

The sound from this unit is pretty good, but the lack of features and information really ticks me off. I am thinking about getting a sony HTIB instead.

I also own this system -- I've observed the A/V synch come and go while using the optical input to my SA8300HD STB.

An additional problem I have that wasn't addressed here is a bizarre green hue to lots of "complex" textures (brick walls, tweed suits, faces) in movies when using HDMI. No problems over component, no diff between resolutions chosen. No problems in past using HDMI in on TV.

Addl dissapointment: Can't get my UR5-8400 remote to change the volume level on the LG receiver (remove provided by Time Warner w/ the 8300HD)

Received my system for Christmas, have hdmi cables from monoprice and everything works fine for me.. The system is really worth the money, sound wise is awesome threw my 360 and everyother source...

Wireless-surround-speaker ready with wireless adapter (sold separately)... kewl.

I purchased the LG LH-T9654S back in October. Recently, it won't power on when you press the power button on the remote or on the unit itself. I finally figured out that if I unplug the unit for about 30 seconds then the power button will work again for a few days.

Any ideas what this could be? Of course I'm out of the 90 day labor warranty period. :(

I'd like to point out that on three different occasions I've experienced unusual video synch problems when switching to dvd. The cable (we pass cable through aux1) will be perfectly fine but switching over to dvd will result in the screen either being shifted down or left or else the color will be off from the standard blue background. The extended warranty from circuity just came in the mail--the offer expires on March 2nd but I'm leaning towards purchasing it (as much as I don't like extended offers, I've got a sneaking suspicion I'll be cashing it in for this one.)