I was under the impression that 1080p required the use of DVI/HDMI. Am I wrong? Are there any TV's that accept a 1080p signal via component?

The reason I ask is because if it doesn't then how can the cheap version of the PS3 output 1080p with now HDMI port?

you're not wrong.

component won't do 1080p

Well thats very intersting. So not all ps3's will do 1080p then.

you're not wrong.

component won't do 1080p

Component will do 1080p all day long! The problem is that HDTVs need new hardware to display it. Component video cables will go to a horizontal resolution of 2160 @ 30 frames per second in very short distances (1 meter or less) but it will send the video through its pipe.
Component is a very robust system with one problem, Hollywood can't control it.

I think he means it won't do it for AACS contracted devices, such as Blu-ray and HD DVD. It's not allowed by spec.

Are there any TV's that accept a 1080p signal via component?


There are displays that accept 1080p over VGA .

I was under the impression that 1080p required the use of DVI/HDMI. Am I wrong? Are there any TV's that accept a 1080p signal via component?

The reason I ask is because if it doesn't then how can the cheap version of the PS3 output 1080p with now HDMI port?
It wont. The first gen games will all run at 720p and then maybe 1080i later on. Even if they do start running at 1080p, you will always have the option to change the output to whatever your PS3 can output or your TV can accept. And copy protection wont be active when playing a game, only for movies.

Component will do 1080p all day long! The problem is that HDTVs need new hardware to display it. Component video cables will go to a horizontal resolution of 2160 @ 30 frames per second in very short distances (1 meter or less) but it will send the video through its pipe.
Component is a very robust system with one problem, Hollywood can't control it.

So does the signal start to degrade over that 1 meter mark? Is there a noticable difference between component and HDMI at 1080p at 1meter? At 2-4 meters?

Most experts say that the difference between a 1080i component and HDMI isn't really noticable, does this change with 1080p sources?

Seems the main problem is whenever movie studios decide to turn on the token system.

The Westinghouse LVM-42w2 is specified as accepting 1080p over component.

This means that any of the PS3 video games that are 1080p capable can be paired with that display for 1080p over component. Yes, it is possible.

The Westinghouse LVM-42w2 is specified as accepting 1080p over component.

This means that any of the PS3 video games that are 1080p capable can be paired with that display for 1080p over component. Yes, it is possible.

Do some 1080p displays not accept 1080p over component?

I need to dig up the quote, and then the spec. kjack indicated that 1080i was as high as analog component went in the official specs.

Later,
Bill

I need to dig up the quote, and then the spec. kjack indicated that 1080i was as high as analog component went in the official specs.

Later,
Bill

Wikipedia states 1080p as the max:) Not like that's a end all source though...

Component 1080i is the max that AACS will allow over component.

For this academic discusssion, I am more curious what SMPTE and/or the ITU have to say on the matter. However, AACS is also pretty clear here.

The probelm is not the component signal.
That signal will do 1080p60 without any problems.

BUT the licenses governing BD-ROM A/V do NOT allow 1080p outputs on analog connectors. The maximum permissible output resolution is 1080i60. This has nothing to do with the ICT flag btw, so it doesn't matter if ICT=0 or ICT=1.


Also keep in mind that the provisions in the BD-ROM A/V license do NOT extent to PS3 games, so the games might output 1080p over component if Sony chose to allow that.

Also keep in mind that the provisions in the BD-ROM A/V license do NOT extent to PS3 games, so the games might output 1080p over component if Sony chose to allow that.I think it is unlikely though, partially because doing something like that would mostly be for high end customers and since HDMI supports 1080p, the number of high end people who would demand 1080p over component is pretty limited. Put another way, the main reason people are asking is because the cheaper system doesn't have HDMI, but most of the customers who are likely to demand 1080p wouldn't be likely to worry about the $100 difference and Sony wants people to buy the more expensive system anyway.

--Darin

Im disapointed that Sony is even making a version without HDMI.

Im disapointed that Sony is even making a version without HDMI.

I'm not touching a PS3 w/out component. No matter how clever they get with resolutions/formats, I'm not buying a TV just to get HDMI support.

The higher end one still has the Sony A/V output, which would be component. Not like its an either or situation.

My screen accepts 1080p/24SF via component, it's a relitively old Sony plasma.

It was never realistic to believe Sony would provide the same BR performance level in a machine that not only is listed at half the price of their BR player, but is to double as their flagship gaming device.

Darin has right.

Jim

So the answer is "yes" to is it physically possible to do 1080p over component, but protected movie content will still be subjected to 1080i over component (and less with higher restrictions set). Videogame output is still up to whatever the game designers feel obliged to target. Possibly homegrown hd videos burned to disc could still take advantage of 1080p over component, but likely that will be 1080i sourced anyways unless you are using very pro-level videocam equipment.

So the answer is "yes" to is it physically possible to do 1080p over component, but protected movie content will still be subjected to 1080i over component (and less with higher restrictions set).
Please forgive me since I have been absent from this forum for a couple of months. By this statement, can movies be watched at 1080i over component, or will they be down rezzed to 480p?

Please forgive me since I have been absent from this forum for a couple of months. By this statement, can movies be watched at 1080i over component, or will they be down rezzed to 480p?AACS allows 480i, 480p, 576i, 576p, 720p and 1080i analog output. If the "Image Constraint Token" (ICT) on an AACS disc is set to 1, the analog output stage pathway is limited to a maximum of 520,000 active pixels (e.g., 960x540p), and it can then be resampled back to whatever.

So, if ICT=1 and you've got a 1080p24 source film, the analog pathway could look like this:

disc -> 1080p24 -> 960x540p24 -> 1920x1080i60 -> display

No studio has announced plans to use ICT (most have very vocally said they would not...at least not at first). Of the majors, Warner is seen as the most likely pulling the trigger someday.

My screen accepts 1080p/24SF via component, it's a relitively old Sony plasma.
This is actually an interlaced format. Admittedly, one that can be made to be progressive with a simple weave algorithm, but it is still technically interlaced (48Hz).

Let's throw a Monkey Wrench into the discussion...without HDMI you can not do Dolby TrueHD (lossless)...correct?

So the PS3 would not be a full function Blu-ray player anyway you look at it.

You need HDMI or analog outputs.

You need HDMI or analog outputs.

I just don't get what Sony is thinking. Don't get me wrong I like the Component connection since my older Mits doesn't have HDMI...but there should have been at least 2 HDMI ports on all the PS3's to make it future proof....maybe they will change the spec last minute. I think they might have made some sort of an agreement with the other Blu-ray manufactures....if you want a full function player, you need to by ours, not the PS3.

I don't know if I like the idea getting my Dolby HD Lossless (or DTS) over analog. I guess the PS3 will hold me over till the "real" players come down in price.

lufters, I am wondering why you need 2 HDMI ports on the PS3. One should do just fine. The HDMI out will go into the New Receiver you need to buy to get Lossless audio then a second HDMI wire from the Receiver to the monitor.

Remember, to get Lossless Audio you need HDMI 1.3 and it is not out yet if I am not mistaken. Next month I think?

lufters, I am wondering why you need 2 HDMI ports on the PS3. One should do just fine. The HDMI out will go into the New Receiver you need to buy to get Lossless audio then a second HDMI wire from the Receiver to the monitor.

Remember, to get Lossless Audio you need HDMI 1.3 and it is not out yet if I am not mistaken. Next month I think?


They were originally suppose to have 2 HDMI's for Dual Monitor hookup.

An interesting article from Video Business on Sony's possible strategy.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6334511.html

I'd like to bring up a few items:

First, isn't it true that over HDMI it WOULD LIKELY be the source component doing the upconversion/video processing rather than the display?
If so, wouldn't it likely look better feeding a VERY GOOD DISPLAY (likely with better processing) the component and letting it do the work?

Second, is there anyone who thinks that they can see the differance between a 1080p input vs a 1080i input on a 1080p display with a motion adaptive de-interlacing system?

Third, does anyone feel certain that the movie production companies will want to turn away the market for better dvd players by telling the millions of people with component only HDtv's (the overwhelming majority of HDTV owners) that the new dvds will look no better than the old ones on their current tvs?

HDMI is a pain in the @$$ right now and everyone should be saying a lot to the studios and manufacturers about getting it right and not killing TRUE backwards compatability with FULL quality.

If you can see the differance between the 1080 i and p on a 120" screen, then you have better eyes than most of the ISF calibrators who have failed that test.

God, we really are aMOREicans.

Also , how many have seen an improvement of HDMI OVER COMPONENT with the current crop of cr@ppy cableboxes?

1080i at 60hz produces motion judder even after it's been deinterlaced by the screen. 1080p24 does not.

First, isn't it true that over HDMI it WOULD LIKELY be the source component doing the upconversion/video processing rather than the display?
If so, wouldn't it likely look better feeding a VERY GOOD DISPLAY (likely with better processing) the component and letting it do the work?They really have to include the option of 1080i over HDMI for users, so no reason there to change away from HDMI just to get 1080i (or 720p), unless they screw it up over HDMI and not over component. With film sources that are stored as 1080p there isn't the advantage of having a better processor deinterlace from 1080i to 1080p because there is no deinterlacing to be done. For 1080i video sources it would be a matter of who does the best job of getting that to 1080p.

--Darin

They really have to include the option of 1080i over HDMI for users, so no reason there to change away from HDMI just to get 1080i (or 720p), unless they screw it up over HDMI and not over component. With film sources that are stored as 1080p there isn't the advantage of having a better processor deinterlace from 1080i to 1080p because there is no deinterlacing to be done. For 1080i video sources it would be a matter of who does the best job of getting that to 1080p.

I'm just trying to say, that I wouldn't toss out considering a good display because it lacks a 1080P input, the differance would, likely, be unnoticable.

FWIW, my Zektor HDS4.1 (http://www.zektor.com/hds41/specs.htm) component video selector supports 1080p.
(I've never tested 1080p on it though, since I only have 1080i.)

So the rumor is that the Lower End PS3 will provide 1080p over component.
Your thoughts?

a) games -> yes
b) movies -> no

as Sony has said they both have the same capabilities why I think a) = yes, but AACS does not allow it why I think b) = no

From what I have heard the PS3 gameplay will only support 1080i and the BR will support 1080p over HDMI and 1080i over component.

The Samsung player will only support 1080p over HDMI.
1080i tops over component.

According to the owners manual.

From what I have heard the PS3 gameplay will only support 1080i and the BR will support 1080p over HDMI and 1080i over component.
Nah, that wouldn't make sense.

Sony made a big thing out of 1080p gaming at E3. Gran Tourismo HD was demoed at 1080p.

Nah, that wouldn't make sense.

Sony made a big thing out of 1080p gaming at E3. Gran Tourismo HD was demoed at 1080p.

Don't be surprised if that's that case though.

1080i at 60hz produces motion judder even after it's been deinterlaced by the screen. 1080p24 does not.

If it's film sourced 1080i, proper deinterlacing results in 1080p24 as the first step anyway, so there's really not a big difference assuming the original 1080p24 is recovered in the display by proper IVT.

Assuming you are displaying at 60hz, both film source 1080i and 1080p24 will result in judder.

Judder is due to non-integer mulitiplication of the framerate.

Displaying properly deinterlaced film sourced 1080i (or 1080p24) at either 1080p48 or 1080p72 would get rid of the judder.

So now that MS has come out and stated that they have a few games coming out that will support 1080p, what tv's and connections are they going to be using?

I know games are possible through component I've just never come across a tube that has a native res of 1080p with component inputs that can accecpt a source.

Is VGA the only option, or is everything going to be up converted to progressive?

Let's throw a Monkey Wrench into the discussion...without HDMI you can not do Dolby TrueHD (lossless)...correct?

So the PS3 would not be a full function Blu-ray player anyway you look at it.

As mentioned earlier, analog outs allow for DTHD. Additionally, most BD players don't /won't do DTHD anyway, since it's not requried in the spec. A fully functioning BD player does not NEED to handle DTHD.

Component will do 1080p all day long! The problem is that HDTVs need new hardware to display it. Component video cables will go to a horizontal resolution of 2160 @ 30 frames per second in very short distances (1 meter or less) but it will send the video through its pipe.
Component is a very robust system with one problem, Hollywood can't control it.

Its kind of bizarre that hollywood has this bias that VGA can be unprotected HD but component must be downscaled and that ICT does not apply to VGA. In reality just because there are studio equipment that can digitize component video that can rapidly move to consumer hands should there be a demand for it doesn't mean that VGA connector cannot be digitized. The signals while in different color space can be easily digitized the same way.

The thing about 1080P in any format is that it is not officially in current specs (even DVI or HDMI) today, although it is obvious what the parameters for doing 1080P@60 will be. There are displays that claim to support it, and some video cards on PC with DVI output already easily generate 1080P and can also generate 1080P on component.

The inputs on some displays carry the component input over a VGA cable and actually digitize the Y-Pr-Pb over the same R-G-B pins when the connector is connected to a PC. The color space is different, but they are digitized over the same ADCs.

This thread is pretty funny with all the Sony doubters claims being demolished by one day at TGS. ;)

From what I have heard the PS3 gameplay will only support 1080i and the BR will support 1080p over HDMI and 1080i over component.
Games on PS3 will be 1080p since there is no need for the content to be protected. Not all games will run at 1080p natively. Some may be upconverted. XBox 360's games are mostly 720p and upconverted 1080i.

BD (Blu-ray Disc not BR) will run at max 1080p over HDMI and 1080i over component.

HOWEVER, if Microsoft can utilize the loophole that says 1080p over component via VGA is part of AACS and thereby allowed, then Sony can utilize the same loophole since BD is also governed by AACS.


fuad

Its kind of bizarre that hollywood has this bias that VGA can be unprotected HD but component must be downscaled and that ICT does not apply to VGA. In reality just because there are studio equipment that can digitize component video that can rapidly move to consumer hands should there be a demand for it doesn't mean that VGA connector cannot be digitized. The signals while in different color space can be easily digitized the same way. If AACS lets Microsoft use 1080p over component via VGA, there may be a strong posibility that the XBox + Add-on will be used by video pirates to record the signal onto BetaHD tapes or HDDs. With TrueHD on the Toshiba can also be recorded via analog, audio and video can be muxed together to form a pretty good HD copy.

That can then be used to do a VC1 encode and released as a HD-DVD, especially since HD-DVD replicators are basically similar to DVD replicators.


fuad

If you have a Westinghouse 37 or 42 or 47 inch 1080P LCD you are good to go for either console doing any resolution over any connection. 1080P is very possible over component or VGA or DVI. No one is using ICT yet and won't be for at least 4 years.

Ok can anyone give me a clear cut answer WITH SOME KIND OF BACK UP about the 1080P over component so far as the Westinghouse LVM42w2 is concerned. I had been brought to believe that it most definitely could accept 1080P over component, not just digital cabling(partially because of posts on this forum). It was partially because of this belief that I recently ordered this TV over the Toshiba 1080p LCD's. However in re-browsing the westinghouse website: (I would put the link in, but It seems i'm not allowed) I noticed that in the "formats supported" column under connector, 1080P is conspicuously absent. I even called westinghouse's tech support line and was told that the monitor does not in fact accept 1080P over component. Being as that I work for tech support for a large company i know that the general CSR normally doesn't know what they are talking about, but now I have a shadow of doubt thrown over my new purchase. Is this a simple matter of the TV doing something that the manufacturer doesn't admit to, or have i been hoodwinked, bamboozled, lead astray...? Oh and by back up I mean someone who has or has used the tv and has actually seen it say "Don't worry my child, I am in 1080P mode right now" or has a copy of an older brochure in which Westinghouse says it takes 1080P over component or something along those lines.

They really have to include the option of 1080i over HDMI for users, so no reason there to change away from HDMI just to get 1080i (or 720p), unless they screw it up over HDMI and not over component. With film sources that are stored as 1080p there isn't the advantage of having a better processor deinterlace from 1080i to 1080p because there is no deinterlacing to be done. For 1080i video sources it would be a matter of who does the best job of getting that to 1080p.

--Darin

So for 1080p film content which is has been output to a 1080p display as 1080i interlaced content, the quality of the deinterlacer within the display is irrelevant? ie. simple bob and weave would accomplish the goal of obtaining the original 1080p progressive content?

Ok can anyone give me a clear cut answer WITH SOME KIND OF BACK UP about the 1080P over component so far as the Westinghouse LVM42w2 is concerned. I had been brought to believe that it most definitely could accept 1080P over component, not just digital cabling(partially because of posts on this forum). It was partially because of this belief that I recently ordered this TV over the Toshiba 1080p LCD's. However in re-browsing the westinghouse website: (I would put the link in, but It seems i'm not allowed) I noticed that in the "formats supported" column under connector, 1080P is conspicuously absent. I even called westinghouse's tech support line and was told that the monitor does not in fact accept 1080P over component. Being as that I work for tech support for a large company i know that the general CSR normally doesn't know what they are talking about, but now I have a shadow of doubt thrown over my new purchase. Is this a simple matter of the TV doing something that the manufacturer doesn't admit to, or have i been hoodwinked, bamboozled, lead astray...? Oh and by back up I mean someone who has or has used the tv and has actually seen it say "Don't worry my child, I am in 1080P mode right now" or has a copy of an older brochure in which Westinghouse says it takes 1080P over component or something along those lines.


There are reports of people using Westinghouse with xbox360 over 1080p component, you can check those in Westinghouse thread and ask detailed questions there of people who actually have this particular setup. I believe the same processing unit doing 1080p VGA is used for 1080p component as well. The 1080p component input is not documented because I believe there was no readily available video source of 1080p, prior to xbox.

I am running 1080p from my xbox 360 through component to my samsung hls-6187w :)

There are reports of people using Westinghouse with xbox360 over 1080p component, you can check those in Westinghouse thread and ask detailed questions there of people who actually have this particular setup.

That would be me. I bought the 42" 1080p Westinghouse to go with my Xbox 360 and HD-DVD player earlier this year. After the fall update, I was able to select 1080p resolution via component. The Westy's OSD verifies it is seeing and displaying a 1080p source via component from the 360. Audio is fed from the 360 via TOSlink to my receiver.

Should work just the same with a PS3, I'd imagine. Send me yours and I'll check. :D

How does it look? Fine. I have noticed that some games look better if the 360 is set to 720p. I assume that's because the Westy does a better job upconverting to its native 1080p than the 360 does.

(I use HDMI for the Tosh, because licenses prohibit upconverting regular DVDs over analog. I can play HD-DVDs over component fine, but the Tosh upconverts legacy DVDs very well and I use the HDMI connection to take advantage of that feature. I use the 5.1 analog outs for audio, including Dolby TrueHD.)

I have noticed that some games look better if the 360 is set to 720p. I assume that's because the Westy does a better job upconverting to its native 1080p than the 360 does.

It could also be because most 360 games' native resolutions are 720p. There aren't many 1080i games.

It could also be because most 360 games' native resolutions are 720p. There aren't many 1080i games.

It doesn't matter what original resolution are they, either console or TV will have to upscale it to 1080p for display full screen anyway, so his original assumption about TV possibly having better scaler is still valid.

Come on peeps crawl out from under those rocks TGs announced that Both version would have HDMI ports
This is old news.

• When it comes to movies (as in HD DVD and Blu-ray) there will be no visible difference between the 1080i signal and the 1080p signal, as long as your TV correctly de-interlaces 1080i. So even if you could input 1080p, you wouldn't see a difference (because there is none).

• There is no additional or new information in a 1080p signal from movie based content.

• The only time you would see a difference is if you have native 1080p/60 content, which at this point would only come from a PC and maybe the PS3. 1080p/60 does have more information than 1080i/30, but unless you're a gamer you will probably never see native 1080p/60 content. It is incredibly unlikely that they will ever broadcast 1080p (too much bandwidth) or that 1080p/60 content will show up on discs (too much storage space and no one is using it to record/film).

So all of you people who bought 1080p displays only to be told by the companies that you had bought 1080i TVs, relax. The TV will convert everything to 1080p. Now if you bought a TV that doesn't de-interlace 1080i correctly, well, that's a whole other story.

Well, now my Xbox360 it ouputting at 1080p/60. Isn't that better than 1080i, or is it the same?

That would be me. I bought the 42" 1080p Westinghouse to go with my Xbox 360 and HD-DVD player earlier this year. After the fall update, I was able to select 1080p resolution via component. The Westy's OSD verifies it is seeing and displaying a 1080p source via component from the 360. Audio is fed from the 360 via TOSlink to my receiver.


Thank you for that. All I've been looking for is for someone to say those exact words. "I have the Xbox 360, and I've seen my westy tell me that it is gettign a 1080P signal". Everywhere i ask or I check I keep getting friends of friends, or people that had heard. But all I wanted was a simple confirmation. So far as the difference and all that jazz...I just like knowing what is possible.

On that note, am I the only person that thinks that HDMI is kind of stupid? I for one would have rather seen DVI take off as a universal standard. I mean really, if you're buying a large size HDTV, so you really want the sound coming out of your TV? I for one would rather connect my cable box to my tv via DVI, and to my receiver via TOS. But maybe thats just me. Anyway thanks for the answer.

Is it possible to enter the service screens and reverse the component settings to accept 1080P?

So the rumor is that the Lower End PS3 will provide 1080p over component.
Your thoughts?

Lower end ps3? :eek:

Say what?

Samsung 5687w DLP accepts 1080p over component

Sony KDS-2000 does not.

It all depends on what kind of TV you have.

I looked this thread up because I was shocked that I was getting 1080p on my new 65inch Sharp LCD via component cables from my PS3.
I am only still running component because I need to upgrade my receiver that is doing my video switching.