The CRC tested the Linx April 04, 2002.
They tested the LG 5th generation Sept 2003.
They tested the Samsung GEMINI August 30, 2005.

Haven't found any tests of Oren. :-(

Other than Samsung, aren't we due for new tuner/demodulators?

Whoa! Hey, I'd like to find a 5th-gen tuner. :) My year-2000 RPTV built-in tuner can't lock in multipath-riddled signals ~10 blocks from the Empire State Building. Nearly bought a unit that requires a PC to work, but read too many stories of computer glitches. -- John

INDOOR RECEPTION TESTS WITH E-VSB

BEC Proceedings Book CoverEnhanced VSB (E-VSB) is a part of the ATSC transmission standard (ATSC document A/53, Annex D) which provides enhanced signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) performance for a broadcaster-adjustable portion of the transmitted stream, by devoting part of the stream to additional forward error correction (FEC) coding. A paper titled "Indoor Reception Tests with E-VSB," by Mark Aitken, Sinclair Broadcast Group, Baltimore, MD, Wayne Bretl, Zenith Electronics Corp., Lincolnshire, IL, and Victor Tawil, MSTV, Washington, DC, was given at this year's NAB Broadcast Engineering Conference (BEC, April 22-27, 2006, Las Vegas, NV) and is included in the 2006 NAB Broadcast Engineering Conference Proceedings (see below for ordering information). This paper, excerpted here, describes tests of DTV reception with and without E-VSB that were made indoors in typical homes, using both legacy reference DTV receivers (for the main signal) and a 5th generation E-VSB receiver (for both the main and enhanced portions of the signal). Results are summarized including the advantages for the E-VSB enhanced signal and its compatibility with legacy 8-VSB.

Background - these tests had several purposes. One purpose was to revisit the measurements of performance of legacy receivers in the presence of the E-VSB signal, as compared to an 8-VSB signal without any enhanced portion. This can be measured accurately in the laboratory, but verification in the field is difficult because of the possible change in signal level or ghosting conditions between measurements. The second purpose was to obtain some statistics comparing a legacy receiver, a 5th-generation receiver, and an E-VSB prototype receiver including 5th-generation technology under practical and difficult indoor reception conditions. The third purpose was to investigate improvements in reliability of indoor reception with simple antennas and E-VSB transmission.

Test Procedures - measurements were made at 19 indoor sites in the Baltimore, MD area in September 2005. Private homes were selected according to the owner's availability, and therefore Reception Graphare not a statistically representative sampling of the population. Sites with very high field strength outdoors were rejected in order to concentrate on more difficult cases. Three receivers were tested in parallel:

# Legacy (existing consumer product)
# 5th-Generation (non-E-VSB) consumer product
# E-VSB prototype (5th-generation-technology based)

The signals were transmitted from WNUV-DT, RF channel 40, in Baltimore MD. A simple tuned dipole antenna was used. The antenna was at the end of a cable that fed the signal to the test truck. The sequence at each site was to measure all receivers without E-VSB present, then measure again as quickly as possible with E-VSB present.

Test Results - Despite the attempt to select challenging locations, the great majority of sites had successful reception. In general, 5th generation receivers held lock over a wider range of conditions E-VSB Prototype Graphthan the legacy receiver. The results of the stable sites only illustrates the general expected trends: 5th-generation improvement over the legacy receiver; improved margin of the E-VSB channel over the main channel; and no negative effects in the main channel due to E-VSB. However, since the great majority of sites were successful, the error and failure data is too sparse for further statistical analysis.

Margin vs. Field Strength - for a given received field strength, the "margin" is defined as the difference (in dB) between that particular field strength and the field strength at which the receiver fails to operate. The greater the margin, the more robust the receiver's operation at that field strength. This verifies the behavior expected from lab tests, that is, the E-VSB signal has a 6 dB improvement in margin over the main signal.

This paper is included in its entirety in the 2006 NAB Broadcast Engineering Conference Proceedings, available online from the NAB store at www.nabstore.com.

In addition, the ATSC recently completed the development of "E-VSB Implementation Guidelines." This multi-year effort by ATSC members produced detailed explanations of how to manage the interaction among streams as various combinations of bit rate budget are chosen. The Standard requires that the regular VSB signal not be perturbed outside of certain allowed technical bounds. The Implementation Guide presents approaches to manage both the main (VSB) and new (E-VSB) stream construction so that legacy receivers are not impacted by the presence of E-VSB. It is a good two-hour read for learning more about E-VSB, and is recommended reading before studying the actual Standards. The Guidelines may be found with the other ATSC recommended practices and guidelines at http://www.atsc.org/standards/practices.html.

Ask Robert, a New York area electronics dealer.
His handle here is 'DTV Tivo Dealer'.

So where are the tuners ?

Off topic comments deleted. Please PM me with any questions.

Thanks to Davinleeds in the 5th gen forum, we have:

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6434401.html

Thanks to Davinleeds in the 5th gen forum, we have:

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6434401.html

By Staff -- TWICE, 4/17/2007 8:39:00 AM

Las Vegas — LG Electronics introduced its sixth-generation reception circuitry for digital television in anticipation of next year’s launch of its digital-to-analog converter box to support the completion of the DTV transition in the United States.

LG reported at the National Association of Broadcasters Convention here this week that the sixth-generation ATSC digital broadcast receiver chipset is being incorporated into LG's 2007 line of flat-screen HDTVs and digital TV receivers.

Dr. Choon Lee, VP and head of the LG Electronics Digital TV Research Lab, explained that the chipset employs an exclusive algorithm that enhances reception and eliminates multipath interference common in urban areas.

The DTV circuitry can decode both vestigial sideband (VSB), the North American standard for terrestrial digital over-air broadcasts, and quadrature amplitude modulation (QAM), the North American standard for digital cable broadcasts.

This newest chipset is designed for use in high-definition and standard-definition digital TVs, set-top boxes and computer digital TV tuner cards, LG noted, and is being integrated into DTV products sold in the United States, Korea and Canada, which all use the ATSC DTV standard. LG also plans to supply the chipset to DTV makers around the world.

Digital-to-analog converter boxes planned for introduction next year (for analog TVs to continue to receive free, over-the-air broadcasts after Feb. 17, 2009, when all U.S. broadcasting is digital) also will benefit from the low-cost, high-performance chipset, the company said.
----------------------
Well, I certainly hope that LG will also sell a full HDTV over-the-air tuner box, not just a cheap digital to analog receiver that does not output 1080/720.

IB

LG 6th generation ATSC chip: LGDT3304

And a 2nd 6th gen chip:

Auvitek 6th generation ATSC chip: AU852[1-4]

http://www.auvitek.com/Products/AU852X_Series.html

"extremely low power", ATSC A/74

'Building on the recognized performance of the earlier AU850x
family, released these new ICs were recently described by the
CRC, an independent DTV testing authority, as achieving
"the longest echo span that CRC have tested." '

So where is the report from CRC? I couldn't find it with CRC's
search, or with google. And where are the data sheets?

Will there ever be backwards-compatible chip sets, so we could upgrade STBs and sets in the field? (Yes, I'm dreaming).

There's no particular reason an LGDT-3302 couldn't be upgraded to an LGDT-3303. It would require a firmware upgrade for the controlling device as well, but they're physically and electrically compatible. But it's probably just not worth the effort for STB and TV manufacturers to do it.

> they're physically and electrically compatible

Where did you find the data sheet?

Ha, dream on, I don't have the data sheet. I just remember coming across the fact that they're electrically compatible when doing some research a while back. Not that it means much; even if you had a field upgradable unit, you'd replace the whole tuner box, not just the demodulator. But the economics just don't work out.

Still no 6th generation set top box tuners available as far as I know. I guess the Samsung DTB-H260F is only 5th generation.

Please post info when and if LG or Samsung come out with a 6th generation tuner box.

I am getting tired of having my picture break up every time the wind blows the leaves.

IB

Still no 6th generation set top box tuners available as far as I know. I guess the Samsung DTB-H260F is only 5th generation.

Please post info when and if LG or Samsung come out with a 6th generation tuner box.

I am getting tired of having my picture break up every time the wind blows the leaves.

IB
I'm guessing we won't see a darned device with a 6th-gen ATSC tuner until holiday season. Maybe they're holding out for the inexpensive STBs coming out January 2008. or will those use a 5th gen chip to keep costs low?

I am hoping for September, 2007. The summer is mainly reruns, but by September I will want a better tuner. I hope Samsung at least will have their 6th generation tuners out by then. Prices should continue to decline, as each new generation of chip has more integration of functions.

I wish there was an objective testing of 6th generation tuners published. They all claim to be the best.

IB

> Still no 6th generation set top box tuners available as far as I know.

All I've seen are a couple of blurbs saying that 6th gen demod chips
are out. With pretty generic "it's better" claims.

Is there *any* info about what, exactly, the 6th gen chips do better
than the 5th? I haven't even seen claims, much less 3rd party testing.

Are there *any* consumer products with 6th gen chips? (STB, PCI card,
USB device, Firewire device, Ethernet box, TV, DVR, ...)

Of course, without data sheets, how is anyone supposed to design a
product around them?

> I am getting tired of having my picture break up every time the wind
> blows the leaves.

Has anyone figured out exactly what leaves blowing does to the signal,
and what capabilities you need in the tuner/demod to cope with it?
Faster AGC tracking? Dynamic multipath? Something else?

> I wish there was an objective testing of 6th generation tuners published.

I haven't even found objective testing of all the 5th gen chips.

So much for the "information age". :-(

Well, I don't know much about the technical aspects of them - all I can comment on is my actual experience with them.

My 5th generation Samsung tuner handles the "leaves" issue waay, way better than any of my other tuners, which are all 4th gen. It's also a tad more sensitive - in my situation at least. Of course, YMMV, but in my case, it gets more channels more regularly, and holds onto the borderline ones better, at much lower signal levels. I also seem to pick up more channels from the "sides" of my antenna now, too. I can now point it towards the 60-mile away market, and still pick up and hold steady all the channels from the main, closer, 40-mile away market with only about 10% signal loss (that's only from 95% to 85%). I can't say whether it's picking up reflections or the signals directly, but it is pretty cool. I never could do that so well or reliably with the other tuners and this particular antenna (the U-75R).

My 5th generation Samsung tuner handles the "leaves" issue waay, way better than any of my other tuners, which are all 4th gen.

Which Sammy are you using?

I'm guessing we won't see a darned device with a 6th-gen ATSC tuner until holiday season. Maybe they're holding out for the inexpensive STBs coming out January 2008. or will those use a 5th gen chip to keep costs low?

I hope they use the later chips, which would prevent retail returns of the cheapo $50 SDTV converters when people find out they seem worse than the analog tuner due to the "all or nothing" nature of digital transmission in certain circumstances. The cheap SDTV converters will have to be idiotproof & robust. Even with the $40 rebate, I'm not spending $10 for something I'd have to fiddle with when the wind blows. It should just work. Or you can just wait until late 2008 when the huge economies of scale in SD ATSC converter boxes pre-analog shutoff will drag the prices of HD ATSC boxes way down since they will share some parts.

Which Sammy are you using?The DTB-H260F, which is the latest one out as far as I know. But the fact that it's been marked down so much recently (at CC, at least - on the website) may mean that the new one will be out soon - although I really haven't heard anything definite pointing to that.

If you go to a CC store though, it might not be marked down, so you have to ask them for the website price, which they will usually agree to.

The DTB-H260F

I should have figured. It's certainly the most popular.

Well, I don't know much about the technical aspects of them - all I can comment on is my actual experience with them.

My 5th generation Samsung tuner handles the "leaves" issue waay, way better than any of my other tuners, which are all 4th gen. It's also a tad more sensitive - in my situation at least. Of course, YMMV, but in my case, it gets more channels more regularly, and holds onto the borderline ones better, at much lower signal levels. I also seem to pick up more channels from the "sides" of my antenna now, too. I can now point it towards the 60-mile away market, and still pick up and hold steady all the channels from the main, closer, 40-mile away market with only about 10% signal loss (that's only from 95% to 85%). I can't say whether it's picking up reflections or the signals directly, but it is pretty cool. I never could do that so well or reliably with the other tuners and this particular antenna (the U-75R).

I've used the DTB-H260F with both the CM-4221 and the U-75R and have found the CM-4221 receives a much better signal than the U-75R. You may want to give that a try if you have a chance.

I've used the DTB-H260F with both the CM-4221 and the U-75R and have found the CM-4221 receives a much better signal than the U-75R. You may want to give that a try if you have a chance.I decided to try the U-75R first because:

1.) I got it real cheap, and

2.) I needed something very directional to avoid interference on one particular, important channel.

If I replace it with anything at this point, it will probably be something wide enough to receive hi-VHF, to get one channel I don't get now and one later when it moves there.

Still no news? Surely someone is selling a 6th gen by now?

The ATSC demodulator "generation" hype is over. ATI/AMD has captured the market (some estimates are as high as 80%) with their Theater line of chips. They are equal in performance to the 6th gen LG and have the best QAM performance of any chip.

The Samsung chip had QAM problems and the much hyped Micronas/Linx "Casper" chip had lots of problems (and never saw a design win).

Ron

dr1394, which products have the 6th gen lg chip?

> The ATSC demodulator "generation" hype is over.

OTA needs something orders of magnitude better than A/74.
Maybe by generation 10 or 20 we will have reliable reception.

> ATI/AMD has captured the market (some estimates are as high as 80%)
> with their Theater line of chips. They are equal in performance to
> the 6th gen LG and have the best QAM performance of any chip.

How do the ATI/AMD Theater chip perform for OTA ATSC/8VSB?
Do they exceed A/74? By how much? How do they compare
against Cascade2 for OTA? How do they compare against 6th gen LG
for OTA? Where are the 3rd party test reports? Where are the
data sheets? Where is the list of products that use these chips?

ATI/AMD has captured the market (some estimates are as high as 80%) with their Theater line of chips.
Ron

Does this include the CECBs that are just coming to market?

They are equal in performance to the 6th gen LG and have the best QAM performance of any chip.

Source? Links? I haven't seen any comparison of the new chips.

My gut feeling is the best is included in the analog converter box.

I've ben reading dr1394 posts for almost 6 years. He knows of what he speaks.

well when i compare reception from my $49 walmart magnavox converter box to my DTBH260F - the mag wins hands down. Will be nice when an HDTV tuner is available with the 6th generation chip. Anywhen here anything?

People claim that the Zenith CECB from Circuit City and the Insigna CECB from Best Buy have the LG 6th generation chip. These boxes are also reported to have the best reception.

Rick R

People claim that the Zenith CECB from Circuit City and the Insigna CECB from Best Buy have the LG 6th generation chip. These boxes are also reported to have the best reception.

Rick R

Neither of those qualifies as an HDTV tuner as they don't have HD outputs.

People claim that the Zenith CECB from Circuit City and the Insigna CECB from Best Buy have the LG 6th generation chip. These boxes are also reported to have the best reception.

Rick R


The Insigna is the store branded DTV converter for Best Buy. Not sure who makes it.

I bought two of Insignas with via the coupon program for my analog televisions. The Insigna DTV converters work very well. The HD channel reception works just fine, but must be used with the zoom feature to get a large enough picture on an NTSC set. Not a HD picture, but it sure is clearer/cleaner than any analog NTSC picture.

The downside to DTC is you either get a perfect picture, or you get digital lockup when the signal level is borderline. The upside is audio is much better with ATSC. Bass goes much deeper in frequency, and the surround sound is smoother. With only 2 channel analog output available for the audio, PL-2 is the best you can do for surround.

A lot of DTV channels now broadcast in 2 to 4 channels, so that programming is not Hi Def anyhow.

Neither of those qualifies as an HDTV tuner as they don't have HD outputs.


True, but if you don't have large screen television it does not matter much. I am not going to replace all of my analog televisions until they die. I don't use most of them that often anyhow.

Well, when I compare reception from my $49 walmart magnavox converter box to my DTBH260F - the mag wins hands down. Will be nice when an HDTV tuner is available with the 6th generation chip. Anywhen here anything? Good question. For legal compliance reasons, CECBs only offer standard definition output.

It's been about two years since the Samsung H260F was introduced. Many other companies which once retailed HD ATSC tuner boxes seem to have withdrawn from the market altogether.