OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread [Text View] - Page 2

Blackraven

11-05-07, 10:16 AM

When will OLED break the 27-inch barrier?

Some say Sony should release one within this decade (last report says that they'll have production model sometime in year 2009).

I just hope that there are no more delays for this 1080p model and that lifespan (esp. for blues and whites) should at least be at 60k hours by then. According to Sony Japan, their XEL-1 OLED TV is rated at 30k hours. So I guess there is progress being made so hopefully that 60k mark would come before year 2010.

Nevertheless, the 27-incher will definitely come from Sony. As for a 30-incher OLED TV, I guess Toshiba would be doing it (as they don't seem that keen on their SED TV project due to the lawsuits and stuff) while 40-inchers and above would most definitely be handled by Samsung SDI.

In anycase, my personal stand is that my primary bets are on OLED and that I have lost faith in SED. Heck, I'd rather put my secondary and teritiary bets on Laser TV and/or FED TV instead. I'm really disappointed in that the SED camp hasn't mentioned anything at all recently. Heck, the last thing that they said was regarding the court/patent battle and the sale of Toshiba's SEDTV assets to Canon but that's it. Heck, the SED camp wasn't even at CEATEC 2007 or at FPD International 2007 or even at CEDIA 2007 either.

So I don't need to explain further in that my bets go to OLED TV (then followed by Laser TV and FED TV).:) SED TV has lost my vote in the next-gen display battle. :mad:

Heck, I now feel that I don't want SED TV to even come in to the market anymore. At the moment, I long for it to die a natural death instead for I feel that with what's going on with it, it rather not exist.

P.S.
Whoa, I didn't Samsung revealed a new roadmap for OLED a few days ago. This is without a doubt good news for OLED TV technology. :)

Auditor55

11-16-07, 12:21 PM

SED TV has lost my vote in the next-gen display battle.

I did know a ballot was open:rolleyes:

Auditor55

11-16-07, 12:25 PM

Well, looks like OLED will not be my next TV. But maybe the TV after that.

That is why I think the display manufacturers need to be get behind SED. Both SED and OLED are vastly superior to what we have today, but with SED we at least have a 55 inch prototype.

I would love to see both SED and OLED. OLED to take over from LCD and SED to take over from Plasma.

greenland

11-16-07, 12:59 PM

Canon shifts focus from SED to OLED

http://www.displaydaily.com/index.php

SED ends, Not with a Bang but a Whimper
November 15th, 2007

Yesterday, Daniel den Engelsen (of Southeast University, Nanjing, and ABINFO, Brazil, among other affiliations) delivered a closely reasoned, highly entertaining, and exceedingly well-informed presentation at LatinDisplay 2007 here. His topic? "The Temptation of FEDs." His conclusion? That although several aspects of FEDs are tempting in principle, all who yielded to those temptations over the last 25 years failed to produce a commercially viable display and lost a lot of money - and that pattern is unlikely to change. Daan worked on FEDs at Philips and knows whereof he speaks.

Ken Werner
Senior Analyst and Editor

Before, during, and after Daan’s talk there was lively speculation about the fate of Canon’s SED program. Unknown to most of the people engaged in those discussions, Canon had just made an announcement that probably marks the end of its SED program.

In a November 13th press release issued in Tokyo, Canon announced that its Board of Directors had agreed to acquire a majority interest of Tokki Corporation and make Tokki a consolidated subsidiary of Canon. One of Tokki’s businesses is the development, design, manufacturing and marketing of production equipment for organic LED displays (as well as thin-film solar panels).

The press release quotes Canon’s global corporation plan, launched in 2006, which says that, in addition to "securing the overwhelming number one position worldwide in all current core businesses, Canon is focusing on the launching of display operations as a new business. As one of the initiatives in these efforts, the company is diligently working to develop organic LED elements and process technologies targeting the application of an organic LED display product."
HDTV Expert

Tokki has lost money for the last three years, and is "in financially challenging circumstances," according to Canon. But Canon thinks that adding Tokki to the corporate stable will allow Canon to significantly speed up development of OLED displays, and create synergy with Canon subsidiary Canon ANELVA, which manufactures vacuum and thin-film processing equipment.

Tokki has agreed to Canon’s tender offer, and the two companies signed a capital alliance agreement on the 13th.

In past discussions of displays by Canon, it was SED that was front and center. In Wednesday’s release, SED wasn’t even mentioned. Talk about going out with a whimper. But this whimper is long overdue.

As far as OLEDs are concerned, at least we know it’s possible to make them in quantity, unlike SEDs. Whether Canon can make and sell a competitive product remains to be seen, but we can be sure Canon Chairman and CEO Fujio Mitarai will not be satisfied with making 2-inch cell-phone displays. His dream for SEDs was to include them in Canon-branded TV sets. The display technology may have changed, but I will bet you a martini to a peanut that Mitarai-san’s dream of a Canon TV has not.

Blackraven

11-17-07, 09:42 AM

I did know a ballot was open:rolleyes:

It was figure of speech.

I guess you've taken my post way beyond context (but I won't blame you for that :p)

You can blame Canon though for its announcement that they may consider reducing funding for their SED program and contribute more money/investment/capital into OLED TV instead.

Read the article posted by 'greenland' to find out why. ;)

Auditor55

11-19-07, 05:38 PM

It was figure of speech.

I guess you've taken my post way beyond context (but I won't blame you for that :p)

You can blame Canon though for its announcement that they may consider reducing funding for their SED program and contribute more money/investment/capital into OLED TV instead.

Read the article posted by 'greenland' to find out why. ;)

You notice in that article there isn't one quote from Canon saying that they have officially ended plans to manufacturer SED TV's.

That article was obviously written by some SED hater, who probably have stocks in Pioneer.

Elemental1

11-26-07, 06:38 PM

You notice in that article there isn't one quote from Canon saying that they have officially ended plans to manufacturer SED TV's.

That article was obviously written by some SED hater, who probably have stocks in Pioneer.

Nah that was another post by Greenland. :D
That great big plasma tout.;)
Be careful..I hear he carries a big lamp.

hoodlum

11-27-07, 04:37 PM

OLED display revenues disappoint in Q3 2007 (http://www.my-esm.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=204203543)

"In what was expected to be a strong quarter with Samsung SDI reaching their full production goal of 1.5 million (M) AMOLED displays per month, the company barely reached the 100K mark down from 350K in Q2'07 as reported in DisplaySearch's latest Quarterly OLED Shipment and Forecast Report. The low production level left the OLED display industry with revenues of only US$78.3M in Q3'07 down 38% Y/Y and 31% Q/Q. Shipments were 15.5M for the quarter, down 32% Y/Y and 22% Q/Q."

Triaxtremec

11-27-07, 11:38 PM

Blackraven

12-03-07, 10:44 AM

Sony was at the store I work at and brought its new OLED panel with it. The thing was sweet as all hell. I talked to Sony's marketing rep of North America and he said they hope to have the 27" out withing 5 years but it would retail roughly around $1800. They just have to find a way to make it cheap.

You know what. If they price that 27 incher at 1800-2000 American dollars, then I think that it is a pretty solid deal already. For a TV that uses tech that is relatively new for HDTV use, I think that is already a plus in my book.

Not to mention that by that time, overall lifespan would go way beyond the 60,000 hour lifespan (esp. with blues and whites reaching record lifespans) so this would be cool to see IMHO.

navychop

12-04-07, 08:20 PM

In 5 years, who's going to be buying 27" TVs? I'll bet the average TV sold by then will be closer to 40", probably in the 36"-42" range.

dsurkin

12-05-07, 09:35 AM

navychop:
It depends upon available space. My wife's cherished teak wall unit, holding the TV in our den, can only accommodate a 26" or 27" widescreen TV. The WAF thus ruled out anything larger.

cajieboy

12-05-07, 06:50 PM

navychop:
It depends upon available space. My wife's cherished teak wall unit, holding the TV in our den, can only accommodate a 26" or 27" widescreen TV. The WAF thus ruled out anything larger.

Well, you could find some other place for wall unit...maybe an office room or a bedroom.

In this day & age, w/the ability to watch great movies at home, whether on HDTV, or DVD, or HD-DVD/BluRay you should consider upgrading to a screen size that would benefit from these new video technologies and provide you a more Home Theater environment.

Back in late December 2002, I upgraded to HDTV from a 27" Sony XBR to a 40" Sony XBR. This upgrade increased my viewing screen size by 119% (www.cavecreations.com), and I can't stress enough how great the impact this TV upgrade provided me. The term "night & day" when comparing against my older 27"XBR does not even seem adequate enough to describe the super effects & enjoyment this upgrade has given me over the past 5 years. My next TV Upgrade will be in the 60+" screen size, which after learning more & more about HT, I feel is the best screen size for my viewing distance. This will increase my present screen size 50% for 4:3, and about 166% for 16:9 movies.

Maybe you could get your wife onboard w/this upgrade by taking her along to demo TV's and letting her read some Home Theater magazine articles, etc. I definitely would not let a piece of furniture designed attractively for the purpose to hold/display stuff to deter me from achieving an HT experience in my home. No offense, but I can guarantee you that you both will benefit so much more and in so many ways from a good Home Theater A/V system than you are presently getting from a teak wall unit.:D

greenland

12-06-07, 01:45 PM

Here is a link to a site that has purchased the new Sony OLED display and have taken it apart to examine the internal components.

There is also a Windows Media video clip on the site showing them taking the display apart. Enjoy.

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20071127/143111/

[Breaking Down OLED TV] We Got Sony's OLED TV

CMRA

12-06-07, 03:30 PM

FWIW, I saw one (11 inch) Sony at SonyStyle yesterday. I'm planning a return trip back with a few BDs to 'ckeck it out'.

SephirothXR

12-06-07, 07:30 PM

I'm buying a new TV, a 58" plasma. Will Oleds get this big, or is it already hard enough for them to get to even 40? What about 50? Would we see 50"+ Oleds by the end of this year?

greenland

12-11-07, 12:44 PM

Sony says that they are losing money on each 11 inch OLED panel that they sell.

http://www.digitimes.com/displays/a20071211PR200.html

http://www.digitimes.com/Images/spacepx.gif Is there room for OLED technology in the TV market?
Press release, December 11; Emily Chuang, DIGITIMES [Tuesday 11 December 2007] http://www.digitimes.com/Images/spacepx.gif
After examining Sony's 11-inch OLED (organic light emitting diode) TV exhibited at iSuppli's Flat Information Displays (FID) 2007 conference last week, there is no denying how stunning the picture is. But because the OLED TV market is still in its infancy, with the Sony set being the first to be manufactured and sold to consumers, it's unreasonable to expect it to compete effectively with LCD or PDP (plasma display panel) TVs at this time, according to research firm iSuppli.
However, this begs the question: Will OLED TV ever be able to match up with LCD and PDP TVs?
"It will be a challenge for OLED to catch up, given the investments that have been put into the other technologies," said Paul Semenza, vice president of displays at iSuppli, speaking at FID 2007 last week. "But there is no doubt about its performance and there is a lot of potential for the display technology, maybe in mobile applications."
With Sony being the first to throw its hat into the OLED TV ring, due to its introduction of the 11-inch set this month in Japan at a price of US$1,800, shipment volumes are expected to be very small, targeting a small niche of well-heeled, tech-savvy consumers.
And even at such a high price, Sony indicated that it is taking a loss on the sale of each OLED set, according to Vinita Jakhanwal, principal analyst for mobile displays at iSuppli.
A few more brands are likely to enter the OLED TV market in 2009, including Toshiba and Panasonic. The major motivation for these companies' entrance into the market is to make a statement to the industry that they are capable of producing OLED TVs, Jakhanwal added.
OLED problems and benefits
Semenza stressed that despite the obstacles, iSuppli does not discount the prospects and potential of OLED technology. However, there are a number of fundamental technology and market challenges that must be resolved before OLEDs can make a real impact in the market.
One of these challenges is the fact that active-matrix OLED (AMOLED) panel manufacturing is still an inefficient process, Jakhanwal said. As the size of OLED displays becomes larger, the yields and manufacturing losses also get larger.
"As a result, AMOLED products are going to be small-sized displays, for applications such as mobile phones and personal media players (PMPs) for a few more years," Jakhanwal said. "OLED suppliers still are struggling with improving yield rates and low manufacturing efficiencies for small-sized displays."
Furthermore, OLED material lifetimes are still an issue for products that require long lifetimes such as televisions. Add to this the fact that AMOLED suppliers cannot guarantee high volumes because the technology is coming from a single source.
However, OLED TV has a number of great upsides, including: OLED TVs use no backlights, so they offer potential power-savings benefits compared to other technologies. Because they have no backlights and use only a single glass substrate, OLED TVs can be very thin.
The response time for OLED TVs is very fast, so there is no motion blur while watching television. OLED TVs have a much richer color gamut than competing display technologies.
iSuppli forecasts the global OLED TV market will reach 2.8 million units by 2013, managing a compound annual growth rate (CAGR) of 212.3% from just 3,000 units in 2007. In terms of global revenue, OLED TV will hit US$1.4 billion by 2013, increasing at a CAGR of 206.8% from US$2 million in 2007.
Potential is everything
Because OLEDs already serve as small panels for mobile handsets, PMPs and other small handheld devices, it is safe to assume OLED TVs could be a natural fit for automotive infotainment, mobile television, kitchen televisions or other consumer electronics devices that want to add small-screen sets.
The main challenge for the OLED TV industry is making large-enough panels that could be sold at reasonable prices in order to compete against the other television technologies.
Still, iSuppli believes that OLED TV is promising in the long term. Reducing power consumption, extending lifetimes, achieving larger sizes and attaining reasonable pricing eventually will help OLED TV to be competitive, but in the meantime, it will find a place in applications that require small sets.
http://www.digitimes.com/NewsShow/20071211PR200_files/4.gif
Source: iSuppli, compiled by Digitime

hoodlum

12-12-07, 03:25 PM

Toshiba shelves plan to sell 30" OLED TV in 2009/10 (http://www.eetimes.com/rss/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=204801215&cid=RSSfeed_eetimes_newsRSS)

navychop

12-12-07, 05:42 PM

I'm buying a new TV, a 58" plasma. Will Oleds get this big, or is it already hard enough for them to get to even 40? What about 50? Would we see 50"+ Oleds by the end of this year?

Maybe by the end of 2012. But I wouldn't bet on it.

pkeegan

12-13-07, 09:11 PM

EngadgetHD is reporting that Samsung is going to show a 31" OLED at CES.
http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/12/13/samsung-to-show-31-inch-oled-tv-at-ces/

greenland

12-14-07, 10:36 AM

EngadgetHD is reporting that Samsung is going to show a 31" OLED at CES.
http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/12/13/samsung-to-show-31-inch-oled-tv-at-ces/

Perhaps; but Engadget appears to be not fully sure of what it is reporting. Here is their headline. Notice their use of a question mark. That reads like they are asking if it really can be believed.
Samsung to show 31-inch OLED TV at CES?

navychop

12-14-07, 01:16 PM

Perhaps the key is "A" 31 incher. A demo unit. Wouldn't even need to have a half life of more than a few hundred hours.

vtms

12-14-07, 07:56 PM

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20071213/144198/

"The problem is power consumption." Katsuji Fujita, president of Toshiba Matsushita Display Technology Co Ltd, explained the challenges that need to be overcome before the commercialization of OLED panels for TV applications at a Toshiba Corp press get together in Tokyo Dec 12, 2007.

Toshiba had declared that it would release a 30-inch class OLED TV in 2009. However, the company indicated a plan to postpone the schedule. TMD is the company that is developing a panel for this OLED TV.

Explaining why commercialization has been postponed from the initial schedule, TMD's President Fujita commented, "On a 30-inch class basis, an OLED panel's power consumption is two to three times larger than that of an LCD panel under current circumstances. We must lower the power requirement to make it less than an LCD. It will take a little more time."

Fujita further said that, as well as the power reduction, TMD must establish a lower-cost production technology, which is expected to become available for practical application around 2010.

hoodlum

12-15-07, 02:53 PM

Now we can add power consumption to blue longevity and manufacturing costs that need to be resolved before OLED can scale. Like I have said many time we are still 5+ years away from a 40"+ OLED that is even close to the price of existing flat panel technologies.

Meanwhile LCD and Plasma will continue to advance.

dianaudio

12-16-07, 12:12 PM

What about computer displays? What are the chances of Sony, Samsung et al releasing desktop computer monitors that use OLED technology?

They might be expensive but certain section of consumers will buy given larger color gamut, reduced motion blur etc.

Are there some factors that make OLED displays inherently unsuited or inferior to LCD display panels in the market today?

navychop

12-16-07, 04:10 PM

I suspect computer monitors will be the first big market for them, especially for graphic designers and retailers that use displays to make sales to consumers.

OLED has the potential to become very cheap- about as cheap as CRTs were in their dying days, maybe cheaper. They have the potential to be made using ink jet technology, be flexible, and to use little power.

However, today they still use quite a bit of power, and their lifespan, especially for blue, needs work. Manufacturing hasn't caught up with theory, and better materials are still under development. Scaling them up is still quite difficult. And they are, and probably always will be, susceptible to water damage. So they'll need to be sealed. But hey, we've sealed CRT tubes in a vacuum for decades.

Joined July 2005 and just now making your first post? Must be real excited about OLED! Great!

dlp755

12-19-07, 11:32 PM

Technobabble: The ultimate last-minute gift

Earlier this year, Sony announced that the OLED TVs introduced at the Consumer Electronics Show in January would hit shelves in some form this December. They stuck to that promise. Released on December 1, the XEL-1 is an 11" model that sells for roughly $1,750. Sony is touting a 1,000,000:1 contrast ratio, 940 x 540 resolution, and a total weight of—get this—3.3 pounds. The catch? It’s currently only available in Japan.

If you're not familiar with OLED, it's short for organic light-emitting diode. OLED is made of thin sheets of organic compound attached to an electrode. When electricity is applied to the film, it creates light. As with a plasma or LCD display, the amount of light created depends on the amount of voltage applied. OLEDs are capable of producing brighter, crisper images than regular LEDs or LCDs and also consume much less power. Better yet, the screens are far thinner than flat-panel TVs on the market today. The XEL-1’s screen is 3mm thick—less than 1/8 of an inch. If engineered properly, an OLED could be hung on your wall like a picture.

If you want one, you'll have to hurry. Sony has only released 2,000 of these, so you better get on the horn with your friends in Japan ASAP. But wait until they're awake. You know, with the time difference and all.

For those of you without an extra ¥200,000, the HDTVs on the market in the U.S. are definitely the next best thing.

—Matthew West

http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/genericContent.do?oid=198863&WT.mc_n=681040&WT.mc_t=U&cm_ven=EMAIL&cm_cat=EPSILON-TRIGGER&cm_pla=EMA_CITYLIFE_200712->BODY&cm_ite=263848%20CITY%20LIFE%20DECEMBER&cm_keycode=681040

At least they know to start teasing us already.

Isochroma

12-21-07, 03:46 AM

Top: Witchblade (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=4284) ep. 20 frame 2920
Bottom: Sony XEL-1 (http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20071129/143248/)

http://i1.tinypic.com/6nqb1xw.png (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=4284)

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20071129/143248/thumb_230_iiiD.jpg (http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20071129/143248/iiiD.jpg)

The Witchblade design is superior - with a handle for easy movement, rotation (to show people in front of the desk, etc.) The series finished airing on September 21, 2006. The similarities in design reflect the Japanese way, but it is saddening to see the first design such a poor match compared to the Witchblade version.

CaseCom

12-21-07, 11:02 AM

Toshiba said Friday it's abandoning plans to develop OLED sets and will instead focus on next-gen LED technology as part of a deal with Sharp:

Link (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jFrm3tNMfz_o4FzqLsExjVVOocDwD8TLQPP80)

LL3HD

12-22-07, 07:35 PM

Nothing in this article that folks here don’t know. I find it interesting to see OLED is now getting mainstream coverage.

NY Times

December 23, 2007
NOVELTIES

The Television Screen, Sliced Ever Thinner

By ANNE EISENBERG
IMAGINE a television set so thin that you could roll it up and carry it in your briefcase. It’s not as far off as you might think.

The Sony Corporation is now selling a futuristic TV in Japan that is only about one-eighth of an inch thick — that’s one notch on a tailor’s tape measure.

The new televisions, which began arriving in Japanese stores this month , have an 11-inch screen and cost 200,000 yen (almost $1,800), said Jon Reilly, a product marketing manager at Sony Electronics.

The sets replace the bulky backlighting of typical LCD televisions with a thin film that glows with colors even when viewed from the side. In January, Sony will announce the United States release date and pricing, Mr. Reilly said.

The Sony TV, called the XEL-1, owes its saturated colors and superlative slimness to the emerging technology of organic light-emitting diodes, or OLEDs.

OLED (pronounced OH-led) displays are produced not by the fluorescent bulbs of LCDs, but by organic chemicals deposited on film that shine brilliantly when a current passes through them.

The Sony sets are the first mass-produced flat-panel TVs in the world to use this technology, said Paul Semenza, vice president for display research at iSuppli, a market research firm in El Segundo, Calif. Other companies have shown prototypes of TVs. Smaller OLED panels are in use in some cellphones and portable video players.

OLEDs can produce extraordinary displays, Mr. Semenza said. “The thinness and visual quality are stunning,” he said.

But OLEDs pose no imminent threat to the increasing popularity of LCD televisions. “LCD manufacturers have tens of billions of dollars invested in the current process,” he said, and that money can lead to LCDs with thinner profiles and crisper images that crowd out OLED competitors.

“LCDs are growing fast, and basically taking over the market,” he said. About 76 million LCD televisions will be sold worldwide this year, and about 99 million next year, iSupply predicts. By 2011, sales of 165 million LCD sets are forecast. In contrast, he said, only about 13,000 of the new OLED televisions will be sold in 2008.

Consumers can buy a 50-inch LCD television for roughly the same price as the much smaller Sony OLED, he said, largely because of economies of scale.

But OLEDs may gradually become more popular, said Paul Gagnon, an analyst at DisplaySearch, a market research firm in Austin, Tex. “There’s speculation that beyond 2015, OLEDs could advance to become a creditable threat to the LCD flat-panel business,” he said.

OLEDs have some technical advantages. LCDs typically use white light that is filtered into primary colors and remixed. “You lose some of the breadth of the color spectrum that you see in the natural world,” Mr. Semenza said of the process. “But OLEDs, depending on the materials and processes, produce highly saturated individual colors that are then combined to make this broad color spectrum and wide viewing angle.”

OLEDs also have the potential to be produced cheaply.

“The materials emit their own light,” he said, “so you don’t need the back or side lights of LCDs, or theoretically all of the color filters.”

Small OLED panels are already starting to catch on in mobile displays in Asia, said Chris Chinnock, president of Insight Media, a market research firm in Norwalk, Conn. “The OLED displays on mobile phones have the same advantages as the TV — wide viewing angles, great colors and thinness,” he said. “All of those factors are very attractive if you are going to run TV and video on cellphones.”

The semiconductor technology of light-emitting diodes is traditionally based on inorganic materials like silicon. In the new, parallel electronic universe of OLEDs, though, carbon-based organic materials provide the glow. Pioneering work in the technology was done in the 1950s by Martin Pope, now an emeritus chemistry professor at New York University. Sony displayed one of the new televisions at a recent symposium in honor of Professor Pope’s classic work. “I was amazed,” he said. “I couldn’t believe that engineers could do that from my experiments with little jars and bottles.”

ANOTHER pioneer in the field, Alan Heeger , a professor at the University of California, Santa Barbara, who with others won a Nobel prize in chemistry in 2000 for work on plastics that can conduct electricity, was also delighted with the new TVs. He’s looking forward to yet more development, “when we can have the thin films of today on a flexible substrate” rather than the present glass substrates, so that the TVs can be rolled up and tucked into a backpack.

When that happens, pocket TVs could become as ubiquitous as P.D.A.’s.

E-mail: novelties@nytimes.com.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/23/business/23novelties.html?_r=1&ref=business&oref=slogin

vtms

12-27-07, 08:03 AM

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2007/12/123_16260.html
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/upload/news/071227_p10_samsung.jpg
By Kim Yoo-chul
Staff Reporter

Samsung SDI, a leading manufacturer of organic light-emitting diodes (OLED), is flexing its muscle with the successful development of a 31-inch flat panel ― the largest ever developed by panel makers ― for pricey OLED televisions.

Samsung SDI said Thursday that it has successfully developed the panel by using advanced active matrix organic light-emitting diode (AM OLED) technology and a low temperature poly-silicon (LTPS) manufacturing process for the first time in the world.

In 2005, Samsung Electronics' LCD division stunned the global panel industry by developing a 40-inch AM OLED panel by applying a less advanced amorphous Silicon (a-Si) process but failed to equip the panel for OLED TVs.

Despite power and life-span advantages compared to the a-Si method, the LTPS process has widely been considered a much tougher method to make larger-sized panels, resulting in wide adaptation to smaller electronic gadgets such as car navigation and high-end cell phones.

``Talks are under way to set the specific timing for mass-production but we are positive about its prospects,'' Yoo Eui-jin, vice president of Samsung SDI's AM OLED Supervision, told reporters at a press conference held in central Seoul. ``We will develop 40- and 42-inch full high-definition AM OLED panels in 2010.''

Separately, Samsung SDI plans to mass-produce 14-inch AM OLED panels probably from the first-half of next year to meet growing demand for profitable IT-related products, including notebooks.

``The suggested retail price for the 14-inch AM OLED TV is likely to be around 3 million won, when it is commercialized,'' Yoo said.

Both 31-inch and 14-inch panels will be exhibited at the Consumer Electronics Show to be held in Las Vegas from Jan. 7-10.

Industry experts say competition between Samsung Electronics' LCD division and Samsung SDI will be getting fiercer as the latter has clarified its strong will for the development of large-sized AM OLED panels.

``To create synergy in the business, one of the two should take full responsibility for the OLED sector,'' a Samsung Electronics official said, asking not to be identified.

LG.Philips LCD, the world's second largest maker of LCDs, is reportedly finalizing its acquisition talks with LG Electronics over its OLED division for higher profits.

Compared to a flat-panel LCD television with a known contrast ratio of 1,000:1 or a plasma TV with 20,000:1, an AM OLED TV is said to have more than a 1,000,000:1 contrast ratio. Moreover, the displays can handle fast motion, such as the movement in video games, very smoothly.

According to iSuppli, a market research firm, OLED TV shipments are expected to reach an annual 1.2 million in 2012 from 8,000 this year.

Isochroma

12-27-07, 03:40 PM

Panel makers becoming passionate again about OLED (http://www.digitimes.com/displays/a20071226VL201.html)
27 December 2007

Following Sony finally making an OLED TV a commercial reality in the TV market this month, many makers including Taiwan-, Korea, as well as Japan-based players are changing their minds about betting only just on LCD or PDP (plasma display panel) technologies and are now viewing OLED as an alternative technology for larger-size TV solutions.

Big changes in the Taiwan OLED market

In October, Chi Mei EL (CMEL), a subsidiary of Chi Mei Optoelectronics (CMO), announced that the company would invest NT$1 billion (US$30.6 million) to expand to a second OLED production line. Volume production is slated for 2008. CMO president Chao-Yang Ho explained that the company would continue to invest in OLEDs because of breakthroughs in OLED material technology and that orders and demand for small- to medium-size OLED products are good.

CMEL volume produces 2.4- and 2.8-inch active-matrix (AM) OLED panels and expects a 4.3-inch OLED panel and a 7.6-inch panel will be available in the first and second quarter of 2008, respectively. The Taiwan player will also introduce 11- and 12-inch panel production and expects to offer 32-inch AM OLED panels during 2010.

Several Taiwan-based OLED suppliers decided to phase out of the market due to strong competition from TFT LCD technology last year. Although RiTdisplay and Univision Technology, two Taiwan-based OLED panel makers, had more than 10% of the global OLED panel market in 2006, they are facing serious losses. Opto Tech closed down its OLED business earlier in 2007 and during the middle of 2006, AU Optronics (AUO) was reportedly to give up on OLED. During FPD International 2007 in October, HB Chen, vice chairman of AUO said the company has no plan to continue investing in the OLED panel market in the short term.

RiTdisplay seems to have improved its performance this year. According to a survey from DisplaySearch, RiTdisplay had a record quarter with revenues of US$31 million and shipments of 6.4 million units in the third quarter of 2007 in the worldwide OLED market.

New OLED alliance in Japan

While Hitachi, Canon and Matsushita Electric Industrial yesterday in a press release announced an alliance to strengthen their LCD panel businesses and technologies, the three Japan-based companies have also decided to work on OLED technology together.

Canon aims to accelerate ongoing development of OLED displays by teaming up with Hitachi through Hitachi's wholly-owned subsidiary, Hitachi Displays.

Matsushita said it is planning to construct a next-generation plant at IPS Alpha Technology (IPS Alpha), a joint venture held by companies including Matsushita and Canon. Matsushita sees the new IPS Alpha plant as a possible future base for production of OLED displays, according to the press release.

Seiko Epson announced it has developed an 8-inch OLED panel, according to the company in October. Epson was successful in lengthening the life of the device to more than 50,000 hours, a level appropriate for practical applications, the company claimed.

Despite three leading panel makers showing interests in OLED development. During the middle of December, Toshiba said it would postpone the release a 30-inch OLED TV which was scheduled to come out in 2009. The problem is power consumption, stressed Katsuji Fujita, president of Toshiba Matsushita Display (TMD), when explaining the challenges that need to be overcome before the commercialization of OLED panels for TV applications, according to a report from the website Tech-On, which is owned by Nikkei Business Publications.

TMD is the company that is developing a panel for this OLED TV.

Korea stands firm in OLED development

Samsung SDI now is producing OLED panels at its fourth-generation (4G) lines, using low temperature polysilicon (LTPS) backplane. Optimistic about the medium-size OLED panel market, the company plans to adopt 5G substrates for larger OLED panel production in 2009, according to sources.

Samsung SDI will start developing 5-inch-and-above AM OLED panels, the maker estimated in May, indicating that it aims to boost the monthly capacity of AM OLED panels to 4.5 million units in the third quarter of 2008, up from 1.5 million in the second half of 2007.

Samsung Electronics is also developing OLED panels with the company exhibiting a 14-inch AM OLED panel at FPD International 2007, in Yokohama, Japan (October 24-26). Samsung Electronics unveiled a 40-inch AM OLED LCD TV in May 2005.

LG.Philips LCD (LPL) will acquire LG Electronics's (LGE)'s OLED business division as of January 1, 2008, according to a report from Displaybank in early December. LPL has recently agreed with LEG to acquire its two second-generation (2G) AM OLED lines in Gumi and most of the 150 employees working in the OLED business division.

LGE has two AM OLED lines with an annual capacity of 2.4 million units, said the report.

Isochroma

12-31-07, 04:36 PM

Samsung Unveils 31-inch OLED Screen (http://www.dailytech.com/Samsung+Unveils+31inch+OLED+Screen/article10155.htm)
27 December 2007

Samsung 31-inch OLED screen prototype to be displayed at CES 2008

OLED panels are the next big thing when it comes to TVs and other consumer electronics from cameras to cell phones. The OLED screen promises more compact dimensions, less power consumption and brighter images.

Small OLED screens are currently found on some cell phones and LCD TV makers are looking for larger OLED screens to use in HDTVs. Reuters reports that Samsung recently unveiled a 31-inch active-matrix OLED screen. Samsung says it will have a 31-inch OLED prototype TV on display at CES 2008 in January.

Samsung declined to comment on the commercial availability of TVs using the 31-inch OLED panel stating that the panel being available for retail purchase would depend on TV makers’ plans. With the very high cost of the Sony XEL-1, the first commercially available OLED TV retailing for over $1,700 USD, the price for a 31-inch Samsung panel equipped OLED TV is a frightening thought for many. Samsung didn’t comment on potential pricing for TVs using its 31-inch OLED panel.

Samsung says its new 31-inch OLED panel is only 4.3mm thick and uses less than half the power required of a typical 32-inch TV. The panel’s lifespan is 35,000 hours, which is the best lifespan of existing AM-OLED panels.

Exactly how many of the panels Samsung will be able to produce is unknown. Sony is limited to 2,000 of its XEL-1 11-inch OLED TVs per month because of production limits for the OLED panels.

Toshiba announced in December of 2007 that it would not be bringing its similarly sized OLED panel to market citing production cost concerns.

Sisyphus

01-02-08, 02:58 PM

Sony's OLED is now available on ebay. Search SONY XEL-1. Any takers? :D

Not sure about compatible U.S. inputs though. Looks like you would also need a voltage converter.

blklacker

01-03-08, 12:06 PM

Sony Oled TV's sold out in Japan.

ewitte

01-03-08, 12:44 PM

Lol even if it was really good I wouldn't pay $2k for a 11" screen. I wouldn't even buy a 11" screen at this point.

Richard Paul

01-03-08, 08:10 PM

Sony's OLED is now available on ebay. Search SONY XEL-1. Any takers? :D

Not sure about compatible U.S. inputs though. Looks like you would also need a voltage converter.Just to add to this from the sounds of this article (http://www.gearlog.com/2007/11/sony_xel1_worlds_first_oled_tv.php) besides a Japanese satellite tuner the only video input on the display is an HDMI input. The good thing about that is that the HDMI standards are universal so it should work with any 60 Hz HDMI device.

Isochroma

01-04-08, 03:04 AM

OLEDs: First Sony televisions sold out in Japan (http://www.plasteurope.com/pie-ticker/detail.asp?id=209696)
3 January 2008

The world’s first OLED televisions. manufactured by Sony, were sold out almost as soon as they hit retailers’ shelves in Japan. By 23 November 2007, only a day after delivery started, the first month’s entire supply of 1,300 OLED TVs had changed hands at a price of just over EUR 1,200 each. A further 700 “XEL-1” televisions were displayed in store windows, although the next batch would not be on sale for another three weeks. The new ultra-thin TV sets are not even making it to the stores in other countries.

slacker711

01-04-08, 10:26 AM

You can check out the 11" Sony OLED TV at any Sony Style store. They arent selling them but they have a display model sitting out (usually showing the movie Cars).

The display is so small that it looks like a toy, but the screen looks absolutely beautiful to me. I cant say I have a discerning eye, but it definitely looked better than the various other LCD's displayed around the store. I'd be curious on the other people's opinions if they get a chance to see one.

Of course, Sony has their CES press conference on Sunday, so this 11" display might only be state of the art for two more days :D.

Slacker

MUGEN

01-06-08, 08:31 PM

http://news.sel.sony.com/images/medium/consumer/television/oledXEL1front_med.jpg
SONY DEBUTS FIRST OLED TELEVISION IN THE UNITED STATES (available now at sony style stores)

LAS VEGAS (CES BOOTH 14200), January 6, 2008 – Sony today announced the availability of the industry’s first Organic Light Emitting Diode (OLED) television in the United States.

The 11-inch (measured diagonally) XEL-1 model is just about 3 millimeters thin and offers picture quality with extremely high contrast, outstanding brightness, exceptional color reproduction, and a rapid response time.

“The launch of an OLED TV is one of the most important industry landmarks,” said Randy Waynick, senior vice president of Sony Electronics’ Home Products Division. “Not only does the technology change the form factor of television, it delivers flawless picture quality that will soon become the standard against which all TVs are measured.”

Under development for more than 10 years, Waynick said OLED displays not only offer a striking form factor, they deliver “unmatched performance” in key picture quality categories. With its light-emitting structure, OLED displays can prevent light emission when reproducing shades of black, resulting in very deep blacks and a contrast ratio of over 1,000,000:1. The lack of a backlight allows the device to control all phases of light emission from zero to peak brightness. The innovative technology delivers exceptional color expression and detail without wasting power, so it is an exceptional energy-saver.

The OLED display panel uses extremely low power levels since the light-emitting structure of the panel eliminates the need for a separate light source. As a result, OLED panels can be up to 40 percent more efficient per panel inch compared with a conventional 20-inch LCD panel. Additionally, since OLED displays create their own light, any mercury associated with traditional backlighting is eliminated.

Sony’s unique “Super Top Emission” technology features a wide aperture ratio producing high brightness and efficiency allowing the TV to deliver an accurate picture. The device’s proprietary color filter and micro cavity structure allow it to reproduce natural colors -- even in darker scenes -- and more faithfully recreate the colors that were originally intended.

Since OLED technology can spontaneously turn the light emitted from the organic materials layer on and off when an electric current is applied, it features rapid response times for smooth, natural reproduction of fast-moving content like sports and action scenes in movies.

Sony’s new OLED TV features the latest connectivity options, including two HDMI inputs and a Memory Stick® slot for viewing high-resolution photos.

The inaugural model is also DMeX compatible so consumers can add BRAVIA Internet Video Link service (as well as other modules under development). Using a broadband connection, the module streams select Internet video for no charge from content providers directly to the television without a computer. Current BRAVIA Internet Video Link content partners include CBS and FEARnet.com -- which were announced today -- Yahoo!, AOL, Crackle, CondéNet, Sports Illustrated, blip.tv, and Sony Pictures.

The XEL-1 OLED TV is now available for about $2,500. Initially, it will be in limited supply at Sony Style® retail stores nationwide.

Jigen

01-07-08, 08:17 AM

GO OLED

Can anyone comment if the blue compounds do still degrade faster, and how much faster?

11 inches is too small for me, but I'd accept anything 27 inches or more (but that still is probably a little ways off).

Honestly, this is the only display tech that to me is going to have decent image quality. Finally a replacement for my CRT that won't be a downgrade!

space2001

01-07-08, 11:11 AM

sony 27 inch OLED on display at CES

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTEt5o_jt30

slacker711

01-07-08, 11:22 AM

The fact that blue will degrade faster should be part of the 35,000 lifetime estimate. They can actually make reds that last well over a hundred thousand hours (green is somewhere in between).

I'm looking forward to hearing comparisons about the display quality between the Samsung displays and the Sony displays. They are made using different processes and, in theory, the Samsung process should be closer to commercialization.

Slacker

MUGEN

01-07-08, 07:41 PM

SONY XEL-1 at sonystyle
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665327724

operating instructions
http://www.docs.sony.com/release/XEL1.pdf

Isochroma

01-08-08, 02:40 PM

Picture fuzzy for organic thin TVs (http://www.news.com/Picture-fuzzy-for-organic-thin-TVs/2100-7353_3-6225133.html?tag=nefd.lede)
8 January 2008

LAS VEGAS--Thin TVs made with organic light-emitting diodes could become a big hit with consumers, but not any time soon, according to Toshihiro Sakamoto, president of the Panasonic AVC Networks company.

"It will start to grow as a market in 2015," he said during an interview at the Consumer Electronics Show taking place here this week. "You won't be able to beat the cost and price performance of LCD and plasma for a long time."

OLED TVs are thin--measuring about 3 millimeters, or the width of three credit cards--and sport contrast ratios that far exceed standard LCDs (liquid crystal displays) or plasmas. The manufacture of curved displays is also possible with OLEDs. In some senses, OLEDs are similar to LCDs. The base of the panel is the same, but the upper half of the panel consists of different chemicals that emit their own light. LCDs, in contrast, need a backlight.

Sony has captured a tremendous amount of buzz at CES this week with its OLED TV that's been on sale in Japan since October and just came to the U.S.

However, other makers are taking more time to debut OLED TVs. Both Panasonic and Samsung are showing off OLED TV prototypes this week at CES and both companies are "committed to the technology," a phrase that typically means a company plans to sink millions into research and development in hopes of bringing a product to market.

Samsung might launch OLED TVs in two or three years, said S.I. Lee, senior vice president of marketing for digital media at the company.

Hitachi is in the same boat. The company likes the technology, saying that it's the TV technology of choice for the future, but won't likely come out with OLED TVs until 2105 at the earliest. That's when it could be possible to make a 33-inch OLED TV economically, according to the company.

"The contrast and picture quality is good," said Makato Ebata, CEO of the consumer business group at Hitachi. "How can it be done economically? That is the big question. The cost competitiveness of LCD and plasma are incredible."

Sharp Electronics is in wait-and-see mode, too, a company representative said.

Why the wait? Right now, OLED TVs cost a lot--Sony's sells for $2,500--and they are far smaller than the 40-plus-inch TVs consumers are buying. Sony's TV measures 11 inches in diameter. Manufacturers also continue to find ways to drop the manufacturing cost, and hence retail price, of TVs based around the existing technologies.

"We want to make TVs for more than 0.001 percent of the market," Lee said.

Manufacturing OLEDs also remains an art more than a science. Sony execs acknowledged that the reason their initial OLED TV is so small is that it is tough to make large-screen versions. (Today, OLEDs are mostly used as screens in cell phones.)

"The difficult challenge with the larger screen sizes is improving the yields. There are a lot of complications, many more than with LCD," said Katsumi Ihara, executive deputy president and the head of Sony's Consumer Products Group. "The yields tend to be low. That is the biggest challenge."

The basic technology also needs some work, added Sakamoto. Unlike plasmas or LCDs, moisture can penetrate OLED screens, which can damage them.

"At the moment, there are also no equipment manufacturers for the upper half of the panel," Sakamoto said. "I'm very positive. It is a very promising display for post-plasma and post-LCD, but it will take time."

Durability is also an issue. No one really knows how long OLED TVs will last. Sony's Ihara, though, said his company has conquered a lot of the problems. If you watched TV for eight hours a day, Sony's OLED TV would last for ten years, Ihara said.

Still, the promise is there.

"OLED has the capability to be cost-competitive with LCD or better," Ebata said. "And the picture quality is better and the energy consumption is far lower. There are not too many people that deny the future of OLED."

jmdajr

01-08-08, 03:01 PM

I hope my Sony HDTV CRT lasts until this is affordable!

turbe

01-08-08, 07:28 PM

I hope my Sony HDTV CRT lasts until this is affordable!

:eek: LOL

Jigen

01-09-08, 02:07 AM

I hope my Sony HDTV CRT lasts until this is affordable!

Define affordable, the 11 inch didn't debut at as bad of a price as I thought it would, and right now it's at the very uber tip of high end (for the size), so I suspect it will drop fast.

I'm in your same situation, while I still want to be 100% sure the other factors are OK (like at all these videos from trade shows I only ever see still shots being displayed on OLED TVs), the resolution is pretty low on that 11 incher, not anywhere near 720p even, and stuff like that.

ghettofab

01-09-08, 07:19 AM

Says in the manual that OLED may have permanent Image Rentention!?! What the heck, I thought OLED was supposed to be the next greatest thing. What causes IR on OLEDs?

pkeegan

01-09-08, 01:35 PM

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/09/eyes-on-with-samsungs-31-inch-and-14-inch-oled-tvs-take-that/#comments

picture of Samsung OLED unit at CES

another picture, this one the 31" http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20080109PR210.html

SiGGy

01-09-08, 02:44 PM

Says in the manual that OLED may have permanent Image Rentention!?! What the heck, I thought OLED was supposed to be the next greatest thing. What causes IR on OLEDs?

The materials are organic they're using... And it's the 1st generation of Sony's OLED TV technology.

Everyone has a different approach as to what organic materials to use; so far no two companies are using the same materials. You probably want to just wait and see what the end results are from all of the OLED players before deciding that all OLED designs will be subject to permanent image retention.

Being that it's organic and each pixel produces it's own light I can see how it's possible to get uneven wear. I bet once they fine tune the organic materials this won't be an issue...

But who knows...

In the meantime go buy a Kuro plasma and wait out OLED...

Blackraven

01-10-08, 10:16 AM

Did Sony add updates/revisions to the 27 inch model prototype..............or was this the exact same unit from last year's event?

Isochroma

01-10-08, 04:55 PM

CES 2008: Samsung OLED TVs coming in 2010 (http://www.digitimes.com/displays/a20080109PR210.html)
10 January 2008

http://www.digitimes.com/NewsShow/20080109PR210_files/3_b.jpg

Samsung full HD OLED TV (SDI panel)

Samsung Electronics is showcasing two (14.1-and 31-inch) organic light-emitting diode (OLED) TVs in addition to an ultra-slim 52-inch LCD TV and quadruple full-HD LCD TV at CES 20087, with Samsung stating it will begin commercial production of mid- to large-sized OLED TVs around 2010.

Dr. Jongwoo Park, president of Digital Media business, Samsung Electronics commented that OLED is seen as a contender to be at the center of the future display market mainstream given its very high resolution, and light weight.

The OLED TVs employ AM OLED panels developed by Samsung SDI. The finished products weigh some 40% less than other LCD TVs of the same size while boasting a contrast ratio of 1 million to one, color gamut of 107% and brightness of 550nit.

Samsung is also demonstrating a 52-inch LCD TV with a 50,000:1 contrast ratio and 550nit brightness. Mass production of this model is scheduled to begin in 2009.

Samsung is also unveiling a quadruple full-high definition (QFHD) TV with a resolution of 3,840×2,160 pixels, which is four times greater than that for a typical high-definition display. Samsung will unveil the world's largest 82-inch QFHD LCD TV to date.

Finally, Samsung is introducing a 57-inch 570DXN LCD monitor that can recognize a user's motions even when the user is a short distance away from the monitor. The monitor takes advantage of a 3D motion sensing solution developed by interactive media company Reactrix Systems. Samsung plans to commercialize this monitor in 2008 and will target it for commercial (B2B) advertising applications.

impala454

01-10-08, 06:22 PM

I thought OLEDs were supposed to be mega cheap? What's with the 11 incher for $2500?

Jigen

01-10-08, 07:30 PM

I thought OLEDs were supposed to be mega cheap? What's with the 11 incher for $2500?

New tech...

impala454

01-11-08, 10:31 AM

Even so... 11" for $2500? I hope this isn't a sign of how the larger displays will price when these things come to the market. All of the talk back in the day on this OLED stuff was how they'll be able to print them in large rolls and have huge flexible displays, etc etc.

ewitte

01-11-08, 11:11 AM

I thought OLEDs were supposed to be mega cheap? What's with the 11 incher for $2500?

R&D. Prices usually drop real quick after they get R&D costs back. Rembember back to how horrible LCD was and the prices back when they first came out.

impala454

01-11-08, 11:49 AM

Yeah but it was never to the point of $2,500 for 11". Maybe $1,000 for 15". Oh well hopefully that will be the case. It would just suck IMHO if the things ended up costing 1/4th of what LCDs cost to make, but still cost us all multiple thousands of dollars for a nice set, just because they already know people will pay it. They know J6P will think that super thin = super $$.

Jigen

01-11-08, 03:48 PM

inky blacks

01-11-08, 05:21 PM

http://lifestyle.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=11112

OLEDs were supposed to be cheap and as easy to make as printing paper. The hype overinflated expectations. Will they ever be able to make a 120" diagonal OLED TV that does not weigh a ton?

I hope so.

IB

navychop

01-11-08, 05:34 PM

They are taking a loss on every 11 incher sold.

They know in theory that the processes lend themselves to cost reductions. First, they'll improve the OLED materials and decide upon which formulations to use. Then they'll work on manufacturability, scaling it up and cost reductions.

In theory, they can one day build these things with something like an inkjet printer. I think they will. After all, millions of small OLED screens have been sold. We're into engineering improvements, not science.

However: In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. :p

impala454

01-11-08, 05:56 PM

Right, I'd imagine we (or at least I) had our expectations a little high with all the hype.

I for one am getting tired of these stupid-high contrast ratio numbers being advertised though. I mean there's no backlight, so the pixel can be essentially turned off. They could probably call it a 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000:1 CR if they wanted.

Cobraphx

01-11-08, 05:57 PM

Didn't plasmas start at like $20k for 42 or so though?
Well in 1997 Fujitsu debuted it's first commercial Plasma display the Plasmavision 42. I can't find a direct review of that model, but here is a quote from a review of it's replacement, the Plasmavision 42EP. The 42EP debuted at CES 1998. http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_5_1/plasmascreens.html and [http://web.archive.org/web/19981203015204/www.fujitsu.ca/plasmav/plstit.htm

These things are expensive too! The current Fujitsu model, the 42EP, retails for $10,999. In context, though, it’s cheaper than the previous model, the 42, at $14,000, with better contrast - 400:1 vs. 70:1.
Quite a ways from a 1,000,000:1

Also, since the screen resolution is 852 pixels wide and 480 pixels high (16x9 aspect ratio), there are a lot of pixels (e.g., x,y coordinates 398,460) which may not take at manufacturing. Since manufacturing QC allows up to three dysfunctional pixels, if you look close enough, it may look like you’ve got a couple specs of dust on your screen. At the same time, once made, pixels do not fail.
852 x 480, not too bad, and a couple dead pixels. The Xel-1's resolution isn't too shabby at 960 x 450 on an 11" diagonal screen. Pretty sure screen door is nonexistent there, not so for the Plasmavision.

I'm not saying the Sony XEL-1 is going to be a commercial success, but I'm sure that first Plasmavision set; 42", 70:1, 852 x 480, 120 cd/m2 brightness, and 30,000 hours (most MFg's were stating 20,000 hours until 2002) for $14,000 wasn't a commercial success either. And ten years later Plasma is getting to be very very good.

The real question is... Are these XEL-1's images good enough to generate the excitement and anticipation to drive the market to make the investments needed to get manufacturing hurdles for large size straightened out? keep in mind, they will get better as the technology matures. Obviously they can be price competitive at smaller sizes. It was only 4-5 years ago when LCD was said to not be cost competitive at larger sizes (40"+). There is certainly enough promise to be hopeful, probably not enough to bet a paycheck on at this point.

jgreen171

01-11-08, 07:55 PM

The real question is... Are these XEL-1's images good enough to generate the excitement and anticipation to drive the market to make the investments needed to get manufacturing hurdles for large size straightened out? keep in mind, they will get better as the technology matures. Obviously they can be price competitive at smaller sizes. It was only 4-5 years ago when LCD was said to not be cost competitive at larger sizes (40"+). There is certainly enough promise to be hopeful, probably not enough to bet a paycheck on at this point.

I have read more than two dozen reviews of the XEL-1, and all of them were gushingly and overwhelmingly positive. Most people who have seen the tiny OLED screen were wowed by the contrast rate, color saturation, etc etc. People who look at the XEL 1 at the Sony Style stores around the country have been saying that it puts the other TVs there for sale, to shame. So yeah, I definitely think the image quality will be enough to create hype and excitement around OLED tech.

Where OLEDs will really thrive in the next two years is in the small display category, 2.8 inches to about 7". Cell phones, pmp players, mp3 players, portable dvd players, and hundreds of other personal electronic devices will benefit greatly from having a small screen that is much more energy efficient and also more aesthetically pleasing than the underwhelming LCDs.

Cobraphx

01-12-08, 12:51 AM

Where OLEDs will really thrive in the next two years is in the small display category, 2.8 inches to about 7". Cell phones, pmp players, mp3 players, portable dvd players, and hundreds of other personal electronic devices will benefit greatly from having a small screen that is much more energy efficient and also more aesthetically pleasing than the underwhelming LCDs.

The biggest problem with this as it relates to large screen development, is that virtually no one knows or cares what kind of screen is in those devices. Consumers have heard DLP, Plasma, LCD when it comes to TV. But Probably 90% don't know if their cell has a LCD, Plasma or OLED screen. Not me, I bought my
Motorola Timeport P8767 (http://resources.zdnet.co.uk/articles/comment/0,1000002985,2115358-2,00.htm) mostly because of the OLED display. But most people don't know there is any difference between LCD in their device and OLED. So even though plenty of people already own a device with OLED I'd wager most of them have no idea. If people were informed, and you heard regularly "Boy I wish my flat panel TV was as nice as the OLED display on my xxxxx.", the larger panels would get to market faster. Hopefully the XEL-1 generates enough interest to get Samsung to throw it's hat in the ring and start selling some OLED TV's. Get a few 27" or 30" OLED's out for $10,000-20,000 each, and get them to be used on Rides in a build, or on Cribs, and generate some hype. If Snoop Dog is talking about the amazing picture the OLED screen in his ride provides, it will generate demand.

I was also thinking about the 35,000 hours of life for the initial OLED displays. There are plenty of us out there that bought the D4 and D5 based LCD front projectors. And out of us quite a few (myself included) have had one or more of our LCD microdisplay panels begin to deteriorate in 3000 to 5000 hours. In my case, the blue panle got so bad as to be really not worth watching after 3400 hours (Of course it was outside the warranty by then). But despite these problems LCD projector sales are stronger than ever. So, I don't think 30,000 hours is in any way a deal breaker to launch a new display product. Especially if it has a stunning image.

vtms

01-12-08, 07:13 PM

http://www.digitimes.com/displays/a20080111PR200.html
Saint-Gobain and Novaled have demonstrated the feasibility of large-size organic light-emitting diode (OLED), based on a new high-performance metallic anode and Saint-Gobain Recherche (SGR) technology and Novaled OLED proprietary developments, according to the companies.

The goal of a two-year research cooperation program between both partners has been to develop basic technologies for white OLEDs. Researchers at SGR have created a highly conductive transparent electrode "Silverduct", bringing up to 10 times better surface conductivity than traditional indium tin oxide (ITO), the companies claimed. Thanks to the Novaled PIN OLED technology for OLEDs, samples were successfully manufactured on large area surfaces. SGR and Novaled now see the possibility to produce homogeneous OLED devices up to 100 square centimeters which will ease the manufacturing of large OLED lighting products, they said.

Traditional ITO coated glass impedes the race to large size OLED due to its limited ability to carry current over distances longer than a couple of centimeters. Therefore, for large size OLEDs, the ITO layer must be topped with a thick metallic grid to prevent a gradient of light emission caused by the sheet resistance of ITO alone (typically 30 Ohm/sq), detailed the companies. The new anode Silverduct has a sheet resistance of less than four Ohm/sq, thus enabling large size OLEDs without additional metal grids. This is an important step especially for transparent and bottom emission OLEDs in which the metal grid is visible. Additionally, by eliminating the metal grid Silverduct offers significant potential for reducing manufacturing costs, highlighted the companies.

fanta

01-12-08, 09:57 PM

Isochroma

01-13-08, 02:12 AM

Well, here's some Samsung prime beefsteak OLEDs, sizzlin' on da grill. Images are full-size and are linked to source article.

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2008/01/samsung-oledcimg1272.jpg (http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/09/eyes-on-with-samsungs-31-inch-and-14-inch-oled-tvs-take-tha/)

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2008/01/samsung-oledcimg1274.jpg (http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/09/eyes-on-with-samsungs-31-inch-and-14-inch-oled-tvs-take-tha/)

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2008/01/samsung-oledcimg1276.jpg (http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/09/eyes-on-with-samsungs-31-inch-and-14-inch-oled-tvs-take-tha/)

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2008/01/samsung-oledcimg1279.jpg (http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/09/eyes-on-with-samsungs-31-inch-and-14-inch-oled-tvs-take-tha/)

blklacker

01-13-08, 04:53 PM

If OLEDs have a response time of a micro second and are a thousand times faster than an LCD, why is it that some impressions of the 11" model report really bad motion processing?

And I heard the Sony OLEDs at CES were only displaying still images...

The technology has the sample and hold effect but so do LCDs as far as I know, and the impressions sound like the OLEDs aren't even up to the current LCDs in terms of motion processing.

Question?? Could you please post some of these bad motion reviews you have been hearing about. The only reviews and response I get from people that have actually spent time with this TV gush all over them seriously reviews and such have been blown away. I assume since OLED is new tech one would think its not perfect, who knows maybe their is a motion issue, but I think everyone would agree that any image issues like this will be corrected by the time larger displays come to the market so is this really something worth mentioning. I will not buy another TV until larger Oled come to the market. Pio and plasma promoters can quote the best plasma specs all they want from what I heard and seen no other technology is out on the market can Match what oled is doing. This years CES made me rethink my kuro purchase.

Isochroma

01-15-08, 03:20 PM

2 TFTs Used per Subpixel? [Part 9] (http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20071227/144830/)
26 December 2007

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20071227/144830/vAA.jpg

[B]The image of the pixel structure observed: The structure differs
for R, G and B. The description in the photo is based on our estimation.

The Nikkei Electronics Breakdown Team finished measuring the display properties of Sony's OLED TV. Next, we moved on to observe the pixel structure in detail with the help from a panel engineer.

An active matrix OLED panel generally uses a TFT in the drive circuit. In contrast to an LCD panel that uses a TFT only as a switch, an OLED panel uses a TFT as an analog device to control the luminance. Thus, the variation in TFT properties is directly related to the unevenness of the luminance.

Panel manufacturers proposed a various kinds of ingenious drive circuits to cope with the problem of uneven luminance resulting from the variation in TFT properties. Many of them proposed to use three to four TFTs in each subpixel to build a correction circuit.

The latest OLED TV was highly valued by the panel engineer for its "extremely low luminance variation." What kind of pixel structure is employed in the panel?

The observation revealed that two TFTs seemed to be used per subpixel. They were believed to be provided as switching and driving devices, constituting the simplest structure. Does the TV correct the luminance variation outside the panel?

Because the TV only uses two TFTs, it has a higher pixel aperture ratio over the product using more TFTs. The Nikkei Electronics Breakdown Team estimated that the latest panel has an aperture ratio of about 75%, which is considerably high. It is likely that Sony prioritized the enhancement of aperture ratio in the designing to fully utilize the emitting material whose life is not adequately long.

fanta

01-21-08, 12:40 AM

Question?? Could you please post some of these bad motion reviews you have been hearing about.

http://hdguru.com/195/195/

Isochroma

01-23-08, 03:12 PM

Sony said to be seeking strategic partners to produce and sell OLED panels (http://www.digitimes.com/displays/a20080123PB201.html)
23 January 2008

In order to expand the OLED TV market, Sony, which released the world's first OLED TV last year, is looking for strategic partners to cooperate in the production and sales of OLED panels, according to a Chinese-language Commercial Times report.

The report also cited Taiwan-based Topology Research Institute (TRI) as saying shipments of OLED TVs will rise from nearly 4,000 units in 2007 to 3.75 million units in 2012. While Digitimes Research recently estimated that shipments of OLED TVs will grow from 2,000 units in 2007 to 18,000 units in 2008, while further shooting up to 50,000 units in 2009 and 120,000 units in 2010.

During the recently completed CES 2008 show in Las Vegas, Samsung Electronics also showcased two (14.1-and 31-inch) OLED TV models, with the company stating it will begin commercial production of mid- to large-sized OLED TVs around 2010.

Triaxtremec

01-23-08, 08:05 PM

We're selling the 11inch at my work for $2300. The thing is damn amazing looking.

impala454

01-24-08, 10:53 AM

It better be amazing looking for $2300

greenland

01-25-08, 10:10 AM

Toshiba and Panasonic double OLED lifespan -- exceeds LCDs

[

While we love the low power consumption and ultra-high contrast achieved by OLEDs, there's one thing we hate: OLED's short lifespan. Toshiba and Panasonic are looking to change the game by announcing a new technology today that doubles the life of OLED displays. We're talking a bump from the stated 30,000-hour lifespan (http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/14/sonys-xel-1-oled-tv-pre-sales-begin-in-japan/) of Sony's XEL-1 TV to somewhere beyond that of your typical 50,000-hour LCD panel. Tosh and Panny's trick is to use a new metal membrane inside a prototype 20.8-inch panel to move light more efficiently. Let's see if this new development brings forth Toshiba's timeline (http://www.engadget.com/2007/12/11/toshiba-no-oled-tvs-until-after-2010-seds-you-must-be-jokin) for an OLED TV any.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/25/toshiba-and-panasonic-double-oled-lifespan-exceeds-lcds/

cajieboy

01-25-08, 11:48 AM

It better be amazing looking for $2300

OOOOuch! Yeah, an 11"er display at that price should be able to do a "Pleasantville" act on anyone viewing.:D

Still, it's exciting to see OLED progressing as a future contender in the video tech arena. Looking better & better...

Suhaib

01-26-08, 12:53 PM

As much as I love my plasma display, I'm looking forward to advancements in this display type. I'm satisfied with plasma display technology 80-90%, but who doesn't want really black blacks and improved color saturation or brightness. I'd be happy with a new Kuro upgrade until these displays mature if they are going to be better by a big margin.

work permit

01-29-08, 12:18 AM

We're selling the 11inch at my work for $2300. The thing is damn amazing looking.

I'd love to buy one, just for the heck of it. But I can't figure out what I could possibly do with an 11 inch screen. Use it as a preview monitor for the home theater? Install it in the car (does it come with a 12 volt adapter)? I could use it as a touchscreen for my HTPC, but the resitive overlay panel would probably ruin the image.

chmilar

01-30-08, 01:08 PM

I just saw the Sony 11" set at a local retailer yesterday (Audio and Video Center, Santa Monica). I have to admit that it is a fantastic-looking display: deep blacks, very saturated colors. Too bad it is so small and expensive!

One day, this tech might take over, but it looks like that is still a few years away. I think that the 10-lumen-per-watt plasma will reign as king of the displays for a few years (starting late-2009), before being displaced by something else.

Isochroma

01-30-08, 02:48 PM

cajieboy

01-30-08, 03:36 PM

Your 10-lumen-per-watt plasma tech doesn't yet exist, while OLED does. I've noticed that there is a constant stream of talk about it on this forum, yet if you read carefully the announcements of plasma manufacturers, it is a dream on their future timelines; it is what they hope for. Not what physics says you can actually get out of a UV-excited phosphor.

Personally, I don't think they will get that kind of efficiency; even if they do, it will not dispose of the flicker or PWM artifacting, or burn-in. It is a stalling tactic to try to stem the tide of the market's broad acceptance and uptake of LCD and potentially, OLED products.

Turning back again to the PDP manufacturers' development of these technologies: most are unlikely to reach production stage, because they increase the display cost. Right now PDP costs cannot compete with LCD and thus PDP is losing market share. Why would manufacturers even think of widening the loss gap by increasing their costs? Only Pioneer has done so; they have made themselves into a shining example for their fellow PDP makers on how to commit economic suicide. A review of their latest financial data will easily substantiate this statement.

Sorry, This isn't "my 10-Lumen Tech", and can not take credit or patent fees on this nice piece of video tech. Yes, it does exist, and has been demoed at 2008 CES...just like many OLED prototypes have been demoed. Yes, Sony is producing & selling its $2500 OLED 11"er (at a loss according to Sony), and I'm sure we are only seeing the very beginning of their long climb to OLED marketshare. Still, why not applaud both video techs for their accomplishments? Competition is good for all of us mere consumers who will be forking out our hard-earned devalued American dollars on the new latest greatest. Have you purchased your Sony 11"er yet?:D

madshi

01-30-08, 03:49 PM

Your 10-lumen-per-watt plasma tech doesn't yet exist, while OLED does.
So we don't have 10 lm/w plasma tech yet. But also don't have OLED in useful screen sizes yet. Both will hopefully come. So what?

I've noticed that there is a constant stream of talk about it on this forum, yet if you read carefully the announcements of plasma manufacturers, it is a dream on their future timelines; it is what they hope for. Not what physics says you can actually get out of a UV-excited phosphor.
They have already developed technologies which are supposed to make 10 lm/w work. You make it sound as if they had no idea how to realize it.

Personally, I don't think they will get that kind of efficiency; even if they do, it will not dispose of the flicker or PWM artifacting
Have you ever heard of the sample-and-hold effect? If so, you will hopefully know that it affects OLED, too. So how are you going to get rid of the sample-and-hold effect with OLED? Or don't you want OLED to compete with plasma in terms of "image resolution during motion"?

Turning back again to the PDP manufacturers' development of these technologies: most are unlikely to reach production stage
Ah, so because you're saying it, it must be true?

because they increase the display cost.
Funny. That's exactly the opposite of what DisplaySearch is saying:

ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/consumer_electronics/whitepapers/Future_Looks_Bright_for_Plasma_TVs.pdf

This is a research paper about plasma technology including 5 lm/w and 10 lm/w technology written by "Ross Young, Founder and President, DisplaySearch and YS Chung, Director of FPD Material and Technology Analyst, DisplaySearch."

You don't need to bash plasma technology, it's really not necessary. We're all looking forward to OLED, hoping that it will be the next big thing. But it doesn't harm if there's a backup plan. And for sure it doesn't harm if there's a technology which could force OLED makers to drop prices sooner than they'd like. So let's be happy that plasma technology is improving instead of bashing it. Competition is good for us consumers, you know?

Isochroma

01-30-08, 08:43 PM

Of course the paper you linked to is Panasonic propaganda; though it does have some interesting information, using it as a reference guide for future market predictions would be unwise.

Indeed competition is good, but that's not going to stop me from stating my opinion on PDP technology. I believe that PDP as an economic product is doomed; first by LCD and next by the subject of this thread, OLED. The advantages of OLED are too many, and its potential easily great enough to surpass PDP.

PDP is just an absurdly inefficient way of doing what OLED does directly. The inherent quantum inefficiency of indirect stimulation (electrons -> gas -> UV -> phosphor) cannot even today compete with the efficiency of OLED (electrons -> light). Worse still, the high voltage necessary to ionize gas will forever be a hobble to PDPs as it rquires expensive, high-energy circuitry to run. I could go on but this post is about more than just the deadfalls of PDPs.

And if you think 10 Lu/W is efficient, remember that a 100W incandescent (those bulbs that are getting restricted and soon to be banned in some countries due to their gross inefficiency) gets 16 Lu/W, and 4' T8 triphosphor fluorescent 80-90 Lu/W, and metal halide 100+. In other words, PDP is less efficient than the lowliest of illuminants, a blackbody radiator (tungsten filament). Even if they could double the efficiency, it would still be miles from what OLED can achieve, and will likely fall below LCD technology of the same time frame.

The major limitation on LCD efficiency is the polarizer, which rejects 50% or more of the light. Unless a method is developed to efficiently rotate light's polarization within a small space, that is unlikely to change. One possible solution is to develop BLU LEDs which emit polarized light, eliminating the need for a polarizer.

Here is a link to polarized LED information:

POLARIZED LED (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP1805811.html)

Isochroma

01-30-08, 09:01 PM

Regarding SAH, it is not a defect but a positive attribute; flicker causes headaches, and a significant fraction of individuals can see it. Both fully held and short duty-cycle and schemes in-between have their values, depending on the use. However, not all technologies can support these different modulation schemes.

The pixels' temporal duty cycle can be varied between a very small value and completely on with OLED. PDP cannot, as it is currently designed, support continuous discharge because gas ionization is nonlinear, which is why it uses on/off PWM to obtain grayscales. That is an inherent defect of the technology, which is based on its fundamental construction and thus cannot be removed. Gas ionization works a certain way, and all the wishing in the universe won't change that.

It is possible to pulse the PDP's PWM faster to make the flicker less visible (or even invisible) but running circuits at all three: high voltage, high frequency, and high power, is a guarantee that you'll also get the other three: high cost, short life, high operating temperature.

- High cost is infeasible (see Pioneer) because of LCD competition (direct and indirect);

- Short life is infeasible because lifetimes are already too short and LCDs last longer;

- Hotter electronics can't be done because the electronics already run too hot and have a relatively high failure rate, much higher than LCD.

There is no leeway for making the situation any worse in any of these three points, because LCD has it beat in all of them.

The OLED emitter runs at low voltage, meaning electronics that are cheap, low-voltage, and low-energy (like LCD). This means low operating temperature, and thus long lifetimes and high reliability.

Depending on its design, OLED can be fully held like LCD or flicker at 60 Hz. like PDP, or anywhere in-between. OLED emitters don't have the nonlinear characteristic of PDP's gas-fill.

Finally, OLED can do something neither LCD nor PDP can: it can run at hundreds or thousands of frames per second, since the emitter has a response time in the microsecond range. This allows a third alternative, rather than the duality of SAH/flicker: using interpolation or a high-speed external signal, it can show flicker-free silky smooth motion.

Isochroma

01-30-08, 11:01 PM

Today while thinking on the subject, I realized that if all the work that has been put into patching PDP and LCD with band-aids to mitigate their inherent defects, had instead been spent on OLED development, we would probably be able to buy 32" or larger OLEDs today.

This is not to say that such work has been a total waste, but both roads are dead-ends so the massive fixed infrastructure investment was likely ill-advised, unless it can be cheaply converted for future display production. At the moment LCD fabs are likely to be able to make OLEDs, but PDP production is just too different to make a retrofit economically feasible. The PDP makers are truly alone right now, as they have no other road to travel but the one they are on; one that ends in a clearing not too far away.

xrox

01-31-08, 11:41 AM

Isochroma, large OLED screens are definitely going to happen and I personally am looking forward to that. They do offer significant advantages over PDP and LCD. But the garbage you post about PDP is really tiring. You are the Auditor55 of OLEDS :D

Your 10-lumen-per-watt plasma tech doesn't yet exist, while OLED does. Not what physics says you can actually get out of a UV-excited phosphor.10, even 15 lumens per watt has been demonstrated and prototyped in several different configurations. As for physics (LOL) how did you even come up with that one :rolleyes:

….but that's not going to stop me from stating my opinion on PDP technology. We all know about your vocal anti-plasma opinion. But that won’t stop us from correcting you whenever you post misinformation :D

The advantages of OLED are too many, and its potential easily great enough to surpass PDP. The list of OLED advantages is shrinking every year they tack on to its ever growing TTM. What will the current products be like when OLED is “finally” released in HT size displays? Maybe we should follow your style and go over OLED problems and start spouting out doom and gloom for OLED? Fact is that all technologies have some issues that others don’t (including OLED). Both OLED and SED are not perfect by any means.

PDP is just an absurdly inefficient …….blah, blah, blah……
remember that a 100W incandescent gets 16 Lu/W, and 4' T8 triphosphor fluorescent 80-90 Lu/W, and metal halide 100+…..blah, blah, blah The efficiency of a light bulb and that of a pixel can not be compared. A PDP pixel is essentially a tiny fluorescent bulb. Using your logic it should be 80-90 lumens per watt :rolleyes: Same goes for OLED pixels verses OLED lights.

Regarding SAH, it is not a defect but a positive attribute; flicker causes headaches, and a significant fraction of individuals can see it. Both fully held and short duty-cycle and schemes in-between have their values, depending on the use. However, not all technologies can support these different modulation schemes. You didn’t even consider OLED-SAH until I pointed it out to you, now you are twisting into an attribute. The main reason SAH is used in OLEDs is to extend lifetime. This comes at the expense of motion blur. Improve lifetime and then you can tune the duty cycle.

PDP cannot, as it is currently designed, support continuous discharge because gas ionization is nonlinear, which is why it uses on/off PWM to obtain grayscales. What are you talking about? Gas discharge is quenched as the dielectric layers become charged. Then the polarity is reversed and the discharge is repeated. Learn how AC-PDPs work before you speak.

That is an inherent defect of the technology, which is based on its fundamental construction and thus cannot be removed. It is the principal of PDP operation, not a defect ??

It is possible to pulse the PDP's PWM faster to make the flicker less visible (or even invisible) but running circuits at all three: high voltage, high frequency, and high power, is a guarantee that you'll also get the other three: high cost, short life, high operating temperature….. Hotter electronics can't be done because the electronics already run too hot and have a relatively high failure rate, much higher than LCD How is life reduced by increasing the addressing speed? And you may not realize this but addressing speed has been increasing every year in PDPs. Panasonic already has a 1080 line (16 subfield) 100Hz addressing speed on the market. So again, according to you this can’t be done (LOL)

Depending on its design, OLED can be fully held like LCD or flicker at 60 Hz. like PDP, or anywhere in-between. OLED emitters don't have the nonlinear characteristic of PDP's gas-fill. Too bad it is limited by the lifetime, and BTW OLED emission is very non uniform and thus leads to severe mura.

Finally, OLED can do something neither LCD nor PDP can: it can run at hundreds or thousands of frames per second, since the emitter has a response time in the microsecond range. This allows a third alternative, rather than the duality of SAH/flicker: using interpolation or a high-speed external signal, it can show flicker-free silky smooth motion. Which will just add to the already high cost and many people don’t even like the interpolation effect (including me)

xrox

01-31-08, 12:07 PM

Today while thinking on the subject, I realized that if all the work that has been put into patching PDP and LCD with band-aids to mitigate their inherent defects, had instead been spent on OLED development, we would probably be able to buy 32" or larger OLEDs today.. Let's rephrase...."Today while thinking on the subject, I realized that if all the work that has been put into patching PDP and LCD with band-aids to mitigate their inherent defects, had instead been spent on fixing OLEDs inherent defects, we would probably be able to buy 32" or larger OLEDs today."

Point is that a lot of "band-aid" solutions are being applied to OLED to combat lifetime, mura, differential aging, charge trapping (IR), Burn-in

Your hatred for PDP goes pretty deep. What happened?

greenland

01-31-08, 12:53 PM

[quote=xrox;12988881

You didn’t even consider OLED-SAH until I pointed it out to you, now you are twisting into an attribute. The main reason SAH is used in OLEDs is to extend lifetime. This comes at the expense of motion blur. Improve lifetime and then you can tune the duty cycle.

Too bad it is limited by the lifetime, and BTW OLED emission is very non uniform and thus leads to severe mura.
[/quote]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xrox.

I was wondering if you had noticed this recent announcement, and if you think that such an approach will allow them to tune the OLED duty cycle?

Toshiba and Panasonic double OLED lifespan -- exceeds LCDs

[

While we love the low power consumption and ultra-high contrast achieved by OLEDs, there's one thing we hate: OLED's short lifespan. Toshiba and Panasonic are looking to change the game by announcing a new technology today that doubles the life of OLED displays. We're talking a bump from the stated 30,000-hour lifespan (http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/14/sonys-xel-1-oled-tv-pre-sales-begin-in-japan/) of Sony's XEL-1 TV to somewhere beyond that of your typical 50,000-hour LCD panel. Tosh and Panny's trick is to use a new metal membrane inside a prototype 20.8-inch panel to move light more efficiently. Let's see if this new development brings forth Toshiba's timeline (http://www.engadget.com/2007/12/11/toshiba-no-oled-tvs-until-after-2010-seds-you-must-be-jokin) for an OLED TV any.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/25/t...-exceeds-lcds/ (http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/25/toshiba-and-panasonic-double-oled-lifespan-exceeds-lcds/)

xrox

01-31-08, 01:23 PM

While we love the low power consumption and ultra-high contrast achieved by OLEDs, there's one thing we hate: OLED's short lifespan. Toshiba and Panasonic are looking to change the game by announcing a new technology today that doubles the life of OLED displays. We're talking a bump from the stated 30,000-hour lifespan (http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/14/sonys-xel-1-oled-tv-pre-sales-begin-in-japan/) of Sony's XEL-1 TV to somewhere beyond that of your typical 50,000-hour LCD panel. Tosh and Panny's trick is to use a new metal membrane inside a prototype 20.8-inch panel to move light more efficiently. Let's see if this new development brings forth Toshiba's Yes I've read a technical paper on this design. They have put a ribbed metal layer on the back of the OLED that scatters light and increases the light extraction efficiency of the pixel. This does not change the intrinsic lifetime of the EL material. What it does is allow them to lower the current density to the pixel and get the same brightness thus increasing lifetime. But they cannot "also" reduce the duty cycle. If they want to keep the same lifetime then yes they can reduce duty cycle.

greenland

01-31-08, 01:40 PM

Yes I've read a technical paper on this design. They have put a ribbed metal layer on the back of the OLED that scatters light and increases the light extraction efficiency of the pixel. This does not change the intrinsic lifetime of the EL material. What it does is allow them to lower the current density to the pixel and get the same brightness thus increasing lifetime. But they cannot "also" reduce the duty cycle. If they want to keep the same lifetime then yes they can reduce duty cycle.

Thanks for the insights. At least the increased lifetime aspect, is a step in the right direction.
It is good to see OLED, LCD, and Plasma, continuing to make breakthroughs. Competition is always good.

A monopoly only benefits the monopolists.

The more competition, the better it is for all consumers. Plasmaphobia is a self defeating affliction.;)

Isochroma

01-31-08, 02:10 PM

xrox: regarding your last point: all I'm saying is that OLED will be CAPABLE of this, while PDP and LCD are NOT. Whether interpolation is used, or a direct signal providing the true framerate, is another issue altogether. Don't lump them together into some kind of criticism of OLED, because they aren't.

And the one attribute which LCD has both PDP and OLED beat is lifetime. At least for now, LCD is the longest-lived display technology, and may be for the forseeable future. However, there is also a significant chance that OLED emitters will reach much longer lifetimes, even surpassing LCD's cold-cathode and maybe even equalling LED backlights.

Isochroma

01-31-08, 02:16 PM

"Your hatred for PDP goes pretty deep. What happened?"

xrox: the statement you quote references LCD as well as PDP, so don't be coming to any quick conclusions. I don't hate PDP, I hate flicker, and I can see it on all PDPs. I also hate dithering, and the low aperture ratio that makes PDPs look grainy up close, unlike LCDs.

Aside from its visual attributes, I also dislike its heavy weight, high power consumption, phosphor burn-in, high-voltage short-lived electronics, etc. They are all just more reasons that I will never support the PDP industry with a dollar of my money, and am enjoying watching it die as it is today.

You might think that I watch my display too close, but I'm just within the 30-degree FOV required for the 'immersion effect' (4' from my 32" LCD). Watching PDP from that distance is an annoyance too terrible for mere words, though I could try.

OLED will have a high aperture ratio and resolution, so it can be viewed up close to obtain the full immersion effect, without annoying pixel grain becoming evident, and without the flicker which becomes more visible in proportion to the brightness of the image and the closeness of the viewer.

Isochroma

01-31-08, 02:25 PM

Regarding the recent discussion of LCD and in particular PDP in this thread, I believe that it is important to contrast the fundamentals of PDP, LCD and OLED here to illustrate the areas where OLED's improvements will lead it to future market share.

It is vital to understand the attributes of OLED in comparison to its two competitors because its success in the marketplace is directly related to these differences.

I believe that OLED, if it succeeds, will do so by initially stealing market share from PDP, because it will emulate the positive attributes of PDP and omit the negative. Thus those who would have purchased PDP because of its motion rendering, black levels, or wide viewing angle, will instead buy OLED because of these and will get the additional benefits of light weight, longer life, better reliability, less motion blur, no dithering, higher efficiency, etc.

However, I would measure its true success as the percent marketshare that can be stolen from LCD, which is truly the Asian tiger of the display world.

greenland

01-31-08, 02:34 PM

Blah Blah Blah. Who care what you believe about what might happen. That is not reporting on current OLED developments, and resembles more the product of The Psychic Network Hotline, and even they never saw their bankruptcy coming.:)

You keep throwing in that longer life claim, but that is still one of the biggest problems with the current OLED panels, so for you to jump out and make the claim that it's longer life attributes is going to be one of the big reasons for people to switch from plasmas is patently absurd. You are starting to sound more and more like our resident SED fanatic.:)

Isochroma

01-31-08, 03:25 PM

Your impoliteness would warrant removal of your account from this forum, if I were an administrator. Thank you luck that I am not.

Regarding lifetime, that is still under development and is improving rapidly. There is no way to predict the future, but why are you insulting me for stating my opinion, which is allowed on this forum? There is every evidence that lifetimes will continue to increase; you are welcome to substantiate your views, but your last post contains not a drop of technical information, just opinion.

Also note, that none of my posts contain insults to other users; you would do well to emulate such behaviour if you plan on staying here much longer. If you don't care what I believe then don't respond; your response indicates you are threatened but doesn't contain anything that would help the forum community, thus it is detrimental.

I created this thread from pure vision, and will continue to maintain it; unlike SED, OLED is a shipping product. Regardless of its future, it will remain a topic covered by my family of technology and market threads.

greenland

01-31-08, 03:41 PM

Here is a prime example of your so called polite, helping the forum community out. They are your exact words, so get of your high horse. You have being on a long standing anti plasma crusade, but now you want to be treated like a purer that Cesar's wife, objective poster.

The following words from you reveal that you are not.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10890912#post10890912

Plasma yo outta da house!
Like da common kitchen louse!

Plasma's out without a doubt
the words spill out in racous shout
you may say i'm just a lout
but LCD will live to route
the beastly plasma without a doubt!

Isochroma

01-31-08, 03:50 PM

I like rhymes, but do you see any personal insults in that quote? I don't. Perhaps you should re-read the forum rules (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/rules.html):

3. Thou shalt remember that polite queries will elicit polite and helpful responses, likewise, that ranting and raving, bashing, and insults will prompt commensurate responses. Ye shall reap what ye sow.

Using the phrase "Blah Blah Blah. Who care what you believe about what might happen." to refer to my opinions is a personal attack; rhymes about technology are not. Differing opinions are allowed on this forum, but not personal attack. Read the rules.

Now how about making your next post about some substantive issue related to the topic of this thread, OLED, which we can actually debate about? That would really help avert the attention of the moderators, who are probably starting to eye this thread.

If you disagree with any of my opinions, bring forward some evidence (do you have any?). We can chat all you like about the issues of OLED, but please leave the personal attacks behind.

While my like for OLED and dislike for PDP and certain aspects of LCD are personal, and my motivation for creating and posting in these threads is also personal, the content of my posts is directed at the technology and my opinions of it, not against other users.

This forum is not a place for people to fight each other, but rather a place where each person can bring out the best of what information they have, and their opinions regarding the thread topic. Thus a big collection of relevant information can be formed, and on-topic debates may generate from them. All to the advancement of general public education, among other results.

greenland

01-31-08, 04:07 PM

So your defense of your crusade against plasma technology is you like rhymes. I will take that as you have no defense for the content of what you said in your rhymes. I saw another one on your hit and run rhymes on a plasma forum thread about the next generation of the Pioneers plasmas. Recall that one, where you said that their ad person should be shot. Who do you think you are fooling with your faux above the fray protestations.

Isochroma

01-31-08, 04:13 PM

Isochroma

01-31-08, 04:38 PM

Saint-Gobain and Novaled announce a breakthrough in glass substrates for OLED (http://www.oled-info.com/oled_white_lighting/saint_gobain_and_novaled_announce_a_breakthrough_in_glass_su bstrates_for_oled)
11 January 2008

Saint-Gobain and Novaled have demonstrated the feasibility of large area OLEDs, based on a new high-performance metallic anode, with Saint-Gobain Recherche technology and Novaled OLED proprietary developments.

The goal of a two-year research cooperation programme between both partners has been to develop basic technologies for high-performance white OLEDs. Researchers at Saint-Gobain Recherche (SGR) have created a highly conductive transparent electrode “Silverduct™”, bringing up to 10 times better surface conductivity than traditional ITO (Indium Tin Oxide). Thanks to Novaled PIN OLED™ technology for high efficiency OLEDs, samples were successfully manufactured on large area surfaces. SGR and Novaled now see the possibility to produce homogeneous OLED devices up to 100 cm² which will ease the manufacturing of large OLED lighting products.

Traditional ITO coated glass impedes the race to large area OLED, due to its limited ability to carry current over distances longer than a couple of centimetres. Therefore, for large area OLEDs, the ITO layer must be topped with a thick metallic grid to prevent gradient of light emission caused by the sheet resistance of ITO alone (typically 30 Ohm/sq). The new anode Silverduct™ has a sheet resistance of less than 4 Ohm/sq, thus enabling large area OLEDs without additional metal grids. This is an important step especially for transparent and bottom emission OLEDs in which the metal grid is visible. Additionally, by eliminating the metal grid Silverduct™ offers significant potential for reducing manufacturing costs.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sony said to be seeking strategic partners to produce and sell OLED panels (http://www.digitimes.com/displays/a20080123PB201.html)
23 January 2008

In order to expand the OLED TV market, Sony, which released the world's first OLED TV last year, is looking for strategic partners to cooperate in the production and sales of OLED panels, according to a Chinese-language Commercial Times report.

The report also cited Taiwan-based Topology Research Institute (TRI) as saying shipments of OLED TVs will rise from nearly 4,000 units in 2007 to 3.75 million units in 2012. While Digitimes Research (http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20071231PD206.html) recently estimated that shipments of OLED TVs will grow from 2,000 units in 2007 to 18,000 units in 2008, while further shooting up to 50,000 units in 2009 and 120,000 units in 2010.

During the recently completed CES 2008 show in Las Vegas, Samsung Electronics also showcased two (14.1-and 31-inch) OLED TV models, with the company stating it will begin commercial production of mid- to large-sized OLED TVs around 2010.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OLED-T green OLED emitter offers world class efficiency performance (http://www.oled-display.net/oled-t-green-oled-emitter-offers-world-class-efficiency-performance)
25 January 2008

OLED-T, a developer and manufacturer of world-class organic light emitting diode (OLED) materials and device structures, today announced a green phosphorescent OLED material with world class efficiency performance.

The new material called E255a has a high colour saturation making it ideal for a broad range of product applications in single colour and full colour displays. The material also has a very high efficiency delivering high brightness at low power making it ideal for mobile product applications with either passive matrix or active matrix driving.

OLED-T has already established a world class materials and technology portfolio in the charge injection, transportation and host areas and the new material expands this line-up into the emitter area. OLED-T is also developing phosphorescent red and fluorescent blue materials in order to offer manufacturers a single source of all the materials required to manufacture an OLED display.

“OLED-T is well positioned to take advantage of the growing market of OLED displays through its portfolio of materials for OLED displays. The new green material exceeds the requirements for consumer applications. These performance results are impressive and a tribute to the research and development team at OLED-T,” said Myrddin Jones, CEO, OLED-T..

“The combination of high efficiency and high colour saturation are very hard to achieve and they firmly position the company as a world-class provider of materials for OLED displays,” added Jones.said Myrddin Jones, CEO, OLED-T.

The University of Hong Kong has manufactured OLED demonstrators using E255a and has reported a device efficiency of 40 cd/A at 1000 cdm-2 with a very saturated green colour coordinate of (0.28, 0.64) which is wider than commercially available LCD products.

OLED is developing into an important market for the display industry as well as the chemical industry. Materials are estimated to make-up 20 per cent of the value of the OLED supply chain.

The worldwide flat panel display market was worth $70 billion in 2006 and is forecast to rise to $100 billion by 2010 according to display industry analysts. OLED is the fastest growing non-LCD display technology and by 2010 it is predicted that the sector will be worth more than $2.5 billion.

E225a will be available for customer sampling from January 2008 and can be deposited onto any desired substrate by vacuum coating methods.

greenland

01-31-08, 04:55 PM

I don't need to 'defend' my 'crusade' because it is not contrary to any rules on the forum. My opinions regarding PDP or any other technology are not a personal attack, and are thus compliant with forum rules (and also my own set of values regarding how I post about stuff like this). I love rhymes, and will not hesitate to express my opinion of various technologies using them. That is my right on this forum, as it is yours also. However you do it, this forum is about discussing technology, both fact and opinion. It is not, however, a place to attack other users for their opinions.

In order to maintain the coherency of this thread I will only be responding to on-topic questions from you and others. If you wish to continue with non-topical discussion, you are welcome to use the private message system to discuss with me; it was created for this purpose, among others.

I have no problem with your OLED thread. In fact, if you look back, I have posted a few articles about it, that I came across. I recently posted the one about Toshiba/Panasonic finding a way to extend the life span of the panels, and I re quoted it today. I want it to mature into something great, but I do not appreciate your agenda that all you want to see it do is kill off plasmas. No one is going to hold a gun to your head and make you buy a plasma. I do not care that you choose to speak in rhyme, so that is a straw man that you have set up. I do object to your perpetual harping on your desire to see an end to plasma. As I said on a post to day, I want LCD, Plasma and OLED to flourish, In fact I started a thread to track if FED nanocarbon tubes might mature into something worthwhile. I want as many different great technologies to be developed as possible, and that will give me far more options to choose from. Just because I will opt for one, does not mean that I should root against the survival and improvement of the other types of displays, which others might prefer. That is my big problem with your anti plasma crusade. Just because it is not for you, you want it destroyed.

madshi

02-01-08, 09:05 AM

Of course the paper you linked to is Panasonic propaganda; though it does have some interesting information, using it as a reference guide for future market predictions would be unwise.
So you're saying that the founder and president of DisplaySearch is doing Panasonic propaganda disguised as a research paper - for which they normally ask thousands of dollars for people to read? :rolleyes:

Indeed competition is good, but that's not going to stop me from stating my opinion on PDP technology. I believe that PDP as an economic product is doomed; first by LCD and next by the subject of this thread, OLED. The advantages of OLED are too many, and its potential easily great enough to surpass PDP.
Nobody of us would mind if OLED developed into the next big thing. But it will take a while until OLED will be able to offer screens big enough to be useful for reasonable prices. In the meanwhile Pioneer is constantly improving plasma technology and prices are lowering all the time. So let's wait and see how everything plays out before jumping to conclusions...

And if you think 10 Lu/W is efficient, remember that a 100W incandescent (those bulbs that are getting restricted and soon to be banned in some countries due to their gross inefficiency) gets 16 Lu/W, and 4' T8 triphosphor fluorescent 80-90 Lu/W, and metal halide 100+. In other words, PDP is less efficient than the lowliest of illuminants
Which goes to show how much potential for effiecency improvement there might still be in store for plasma! ;)

Regarding SAH, it is not a defect but a positive attribute
I was not talking about sample and hold, I was talking about the sample and hold effect. Do you know what it is? Are you aware that SAH creates motion blur? Is motion blur suddenly a positive attribute for you?

Funny enough the best bet to reduce/remove the sample and hold effect is to introduce artificial flickering (like Sony is offering in their latest and greatest home cinema projector). So where again had OLED advantages over plasma?

It is possible to pulse the PDP's PWM faster to make the flicker less visible (or even invisible) but running circuits at all three: high voltage, high frequency, and high power, is a guarantee that you'll also get the other three: high cost, short life, high operating temperature.
That's just nonsense, sorry. See xrox posts...

- Short life is infeasible because lifetimes are already too short and LCDs last longer;
Sorry? Panasonic's new plasma models are rated 100.000 hours... :rolleyes: Of course some electronic part of the display will break long before half life time is reached. Same as with any LCD display or future OLED display. Lifetime has long stopped to be a problem with any good LCD or plasma display.

Hotter electronics can't be done because the electronics already run too hot
Sorry? Have you read the DisplaySearch paper I've posted in my previous comment? Seemingly not. As plasmas moves to 10 lm/w power consumption will noticably drop, voltages also and heat, too, even very noticably so. DisplaySearch even mentiones that they expect that heat protection filters will be dropped in newer plasma models because the heat will be noticably lower than with current models.

Depending on its design, OLED can be fully held like LCD or flicker at 60 Hz.
For home cinema usage flickering will likely be the way to go, which means there'll be no difference between plasma and OLED in this aspect.

Finally, OLED can do something neither LCD nor PDP can: it can run at hundreds or thousands of frames per second, since the emitter has a response time in the microsecond range. This allows a third alternative, rather than the duality of SAH/flicker: using interpolation or a high-speed external signal, it can show flicker-free silky smooth motion.
There's no plan in Hollywood (not even a plan of a plan) to increase frame rates to anything more than max 60Hz - if at all. So forget about high-speed external signals for home cinema use in the next 20 years. Sure, interpolation is technically possible. But if you read through the forums, all current implementations plain right suck.

hoodlum

02-01-08, 11:51 AM

Right now PDP costs cannot compete with LCD and thus PDP is losing market share.

Isochroma,

Your analysis on PDP's demise is far from reality.

Worldwide PDP shipments surge more than 42% in 4Q07 to record levels (http://www.digitimes.com/displays/a20080201PR202.html)

"PDP pricing was better than LCD, with 42-inch HD PDP panels 20% less than comparable LCDs. PDP pricing is also falling faster on quarter than comparable LCD panel sizes."

And the largest PDP manufacturer (36% of the PDP Market) is very profitable.

Matsushita profit up 22 percent, outlook unchanged (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080131/bs_nm/matsushita_dc_1)

xrox

02-01-08, 01:32 PM

3. Thou shalt remember that polite queries will elicit polite and helpful responses, likewise, that ranting and raving, bashing, and insults will prompt commensurate responses. Ye shall reap what ye sow.

If you disagree with any of my opinions, bring forward some evidence (do you have any?). We can chat all you like about the issues of OLED, but please leave the personal attacks behind. Isochroma, I don't think anyone on AVS is not looking forward to OLED HT displays (it is an exciting thought). But as the above forum rule states, if you "rant and rave and bash" technologies in what seems like a troll like manner, you can expect responses like you have gotten. Your technical threads are great resources but your troll like attitude towards other technologies is not helpfull at all, and in many cases is not even accurate.

It really is too bad that you didn't start a Plasma Technology Advancement thread as well as I would have liked that.

E-A-G-L-E-S

02-02-08, 12:54 PM

cajieboy

02-02-08, 01:01 PM

madshi...only problem is that you are rude to plasma owners without directly pointing them out.
Not to mention, let me know when OLED makes it to the stores, I can get one that is 'at least' 50", and doesn't cost as much as a car.
Sounds great and I'm extremely hopeful for it....but it is a long ways away from mainstream adoption, no?

Pardon me, but I do not think it is "Madshi" that is rude to plasma owners. I think you had better re-read his posts. You got the guy totally wrong.

littlebitstrouds

02-06-08, 05:00 PM

Why is this a argument thread? I just wanna read hard facts about advancements... Can you guys keep it somewhere else?

Isochroma

02-06-08, 05:37 PM

I agree; the discussion should be limited to OLED. Off-topic discussion can be done in other threads or via Private Message.

MJM3000

02-07-08, 12:28 AM

I'm so excited and I just can't hide it
I'm about to lose control and I think I like it.

moreHD

02-08-08, 06:03 PM

What are whites like on OLED compared to LCD? There's nothing better than LCD whites, right?

Isochroma

02-08-08, 06:23 PM

That will depend on the implementation, but at minimum you can expect something far superior to the feeble whites on PDP, whose market (if it succeeds) OLED will consume first. Here's what we have and what's coming in the near future:

Sony develops little'n'large OLED TV panels (http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/01/11/sony_develops_oled_tvs/)
"Its all-white brightness is 200cdm², peaking at more than 600cdm²"

Dai Nippon Printing to commercialize OLEDs for sign displays in 2008 (http://fantasticplastic.org/2007/03/30/dai-nippon-printing-to-commercialize-oleds-for-sign-displays/)
"Jointly with a research institute, the Japanese vendor plans to develop technology to extend the lifespan of panels by ten times that of conventional products to 10,000 hours, with a brightness at 1,000 cd/m2, the company said."

Previous stories posted in this thread contain more data on individual emitters.

greenland

02-08-08, 07:19 PM

I agree; the discussion should be limited to OLED. Off-topic discussion can be done in other threads or via Private Message.

That will depend on the implementation, but at minimum you can expect something far superior to the feeble whites on PDP, whose market (if it succeeds) OLED will consume first. Here's what we have and what's coming in the near future:

What a hypocrite you are. You keep on claiming that this this thread should be limited to OLED discussions only, and then you follow up with a post that brings your Plasmaphobia to the thread once more.

Isochroma

02-08-08, 09:19 PM

I'm comparing the brightness characteristic of OLED to PDP, nothing more. Interest has been expressed in the brightness attribute; other than comparison with existing technologies and posting some know values, how else can I help form an image of what it will look like?

Regarding brightness, OLED may or may not be brighter than LCD is now or at the time of its deployment, but will far exceed that of today's PDP and likely tomorrow's too, for some specific technical reasons.

Comparisons between OLED and other technologies are relevant, as I have said before in this thread. The differences between OLED and LCD/PDP are the key to its future success or failure, as they will differentiate it in future markets and provide value to offset its initially higher expected cost. Thus a close examination of these differences will provide much insight into future market prospects.

The personal attacks were the primary target of my previous comments regarding off-topic posts. This is a forum to post both facts and opinions, but not to fight with other users over personal preferences, which are all different. It is not my place to question your display preferences, as your situation is different than mine.

Rather, the technical and financial aspects covered in posts on this thread highlight the bigger world picture, and at the same time inform visitors with timely news as well as providing a space for opinion. Perhaps we can hear your opinion regarding the last poster's brightness question. The more people speak up with topical questions/comments/notes/stories, the better this thread can become.

HDPeeT

02-08-08, 09:32 PM

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hdtvs/2740/oled-shoots-for-the-lead.html

Isochroma

02-08-08, 09:41 PM

Thanks!

Though I believe OLED will exceed PDP in almost every quality measure, I am concerned about one which PDP may be superior to OLED in: differential RGB ageing, in particular the rapid decline in blue OLED brightness relative to red and green.

PDP's RGB phosphors don't age exactly in sync and neither do CRT's, but they sync far closer than OLED's, thus less color shift is observed over the display's lifetime. The future of OLED emitters is unwritten, but at present differential ageing must be considered a negative relative to PDP, LCD and CRT.

Isochroma

02-08-08, 10:16 PM

Sony 27-inch OLED TV Prototype (http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2008/01/sony_27inch_oled_tv_prototype.html)
10 January 2008

http://www.ubergizmo.com/photos/2008/1/sony-27-inch-oled-tv/sony-27-inch-oled-tv_2.jpg

[CES 2008] The 11-inch OLED TV is the first commercial OLED TV and it looks great in pictures, but it is simply too small to be really interesting in a home. This 27” OLED TV prototype is much more compelling and I can tell you that the image quality is nothing short of formidable. We are a couple of years from large OLED displays, according to industry insiders and we cannot wait to get our hands on one.

Isochroma

02-08-08, 10:48 PM

After some consideration, I've realized that we owe Sony a debt of gratitude for releasing the 11" OLED TV when they did.

Why? By doing so, they've captured the small market of those willing to pay a grievous price for a small OLED TV. Thus, other manufacturers will be forced to release their OLED TVs at a significantly larger size if they hope to sell any. Sony's XEL-1 is likely to be the only non-portable TV-purpose unit in this size range.

Also, the quick sellout of the Sony unit has shown other manufacturers that they too can expect a chance to sell well, provided the price per diagonal inch isn't greater than the XEL-1's. Maybe this is called 'breaking the ice' in marketspeak, if 'breaking the bank' is too harsh.

Despite Sony's intimate knowledge of their home market (Japan), they and many analysts were taken by suprise at the quick sellout. It is this initial uncertainty regarding market acceptance of a new, high-expense technology in a hostile competitive environment, that the XEL-1 sales have abolished. Thus, other manufacturers and Sony themselves can now reassure their boards and investors that further expenditures are justifiable because the product not only has advantages over existing in-market units, but also has real sales potential, despite its high manufacturing cost and attendant price.

In fact the very purpose of selling such a small unit at a high price, may have been to demonstrate such feasibility, as well as for corporate honor, as other observers have pointed out. It may have been necessary to prevent the board from nixing the entire project. So they decided or were forced by order or deadline to prove the corporate investments of value, which they did with style at a high risk to the entire project, by releasing such a small unit.

blklacker

02-08-08, 11:24 PM

Isochroma

02-09-08, 02:53 AM

Because of their excellent sales, there remains only one leg on Sony's problem: manufacturing cost. If, as they claim, they produce each unit at a loss, then they will have to rework the design/implementation and/or upscale the process in order to achieve target cost efficiency, or raise the price, or both.

I'd be sweating raising the XEL-1's price; nobody wants to drive away customers, yet overpricing can be a valuable lesson to show exactly where the buyer's ceiling is. It is not acceptable to raise prices at the OEM level in this case, so they must remain or drop if future production is to be economically sustainable.

I believe that the 27", if it or an OLED of similar dimension is released as second product, it will use at least one substantially different production technique, fab scale, or emitter material; among other possible cost reductions. A large drop in the cost per diagonal inch in necessary because buyers have psychological and financial maximum absolute ceilings for prices.

There would (likely?) be few who could afford a 27" OLED if it was priced on a diagonal-inch equal ratio with the 11" (2.45x more expensive). Considering the additional panel losses due to higher defect rate on larger size units, I'd say that they would be at least three times more costly to make, possibly much more depending on the variation of defect rate with size.

Perhaps I'm wrong about that market, at least in Japan, which still retains much wealth and has a large well-paid consumerate forever itching for the latest and greatest tech gadgets. They might actually sell out 27" OLED TVs at equal per-inch pricing. But I don't think the board at Sony or anyone else would actually try something that foolish.

So they will tread water for a while making 11" units and down-costing manufacturing, preparing for the next upsize.

madshi

02-09-08, 04:23 AM

That will depend on the implementation, but at minimum you can expect something far superior to the feeble whites on PDP, whose market (if it succeeds) OLED will consume first.
(1) We don't know how good OLED whites will be because lifetime goes down when OLED has to produce a lot of light. OLED whites will not differ between small window white and full screen whites, as it is the case with current PDP's, but the overall brightness may very well be rather low. At least compared to LCD. It may happen that OLEDs will be less bright on a white window compared to today's plasmas, but brighter on a white full screen. Obviously OLED lifetime improves all the time, so as time goes on, OLED may develop to be able to show as bright whites as current LCDs are.

(2) If we talk about OLED displays in useful sizes for home cinema usage, we are obviously talking about the future. So we should not compare OLED to current generation PDPs, but to future PDPs. The one and only reason why PDPs are lacking in full screen white brightness is that the power supply is not able to power a full screen white in full brightness. This problem will go away automatically, as soon as PDP reaches higher efficiency, which improves every year, but which is projected to jump noticably in 2009 or at the latest in 2010. It is expected by some insiders that the best 2009 PDP models will be able to hold their own ground compared to LCDs in full white screen brightness.

(3) Speculating about which market OLED might consume first is very subjective and doesn't belong into this thread at all. My personal opinion is that if OLED proves to be the next big thing it might eat LCD first and PDP afterwards because most LCD companies are also investing in OLED research and because PDPs are projected to improve their cost advantage over LCD in the near future. If OLED will reign in the image quality department it will first eat the most expensive technologies and then work its way down to the cheapest competition. Since PDP is cheaper to produce than LCD I'd say that it's probable that OLED will eat LCD first.

xrox

02-09-08, 08:30 PM

OLED whites will not differ between small window white and full screen whites, as it is the case with current PDP's, but the overall brightness may very well be rather low.OLED, CRT, and PDP are all power on demand devices. Since CRT and PDP both require an ABL circuit (which is the source of the varying white levels with window size) I would not rule out OLED to do the same.

The one and only reason why PDPs are lacking in full screen white brightness is that the power supply is not able to power a full screen white in full brightness. This problem will go away automatically, as soon as PDP reaches higher efficiency
The ABL circuit stabalizes the peak power. Increasing the efficiency will only eliminate the ABL circuit if 100% APL draws peak power numbers of todays PDPs. If not there are 4 options.

1 - No adjustment of ABL circuit
- No change in average or peak power
- Small window and full screen whites will increase

2 - Adjust ABL circuit to lower Power
- Both Average and Peak power will be dropped
- No change in small or full screen brightness

3 - Adjust ABL circuit to increase APL threshold
- No change in peak power
- Large drop in average power
- Full screen brightness will increase
- Small screen brightness will decrease

4 - Combination of 2 and 3

Note, in reading recent OLED technical papers it is surprising to find out that one of the major hurdles for LARGE screen OLEDs at the moment (apart from manufacturing and lifetime) is power consumption.

Isochroma

02-09-08, 08:33 PM

Very interesting... the future has more questions that answers for OLED.

SuperVision2010

02-12-08, 01:17 PM

:confused:
Also, the quick sellout of the Sony unit has shown other manufacturers that they too can expect a chance to sell well, provided the price per diagonal inch isn't greater than the XEL-1's. Maybe this is called 'breaking the ice' in marketspeak, if 'breaking the bank' is too harsh.

Despite Sony's intimate knowledge of their home market (Japan), they and many analysts were taken by suprise at the quick sellout.

HUH? Quick sellout,you say?

Not in the high-tech. area of Boston.

The only Sony Style store here lies on Rte.128 in Burlington and they still have all 4 XEL-1's they were allotted.
That's right, none have sold yet.
One is a demo unit (looked great but comes with a very skimpy warranty) and the other three are still on a shelf in the store room.When I inquired about display lifetime a lot of hemming and hawing ensued.
"Not ready for primetime" is what I took away from that.
Not sure where you got your sales figures.

Isochroma

02-12-08, 01:21 PM

Markets, markets. The Japanese market, as I said, sold out (in one day, nontheless). They have higher incomes and different cultural factors. Remember that they only intended to sell them in the Japanese market anyway. Some were sold elsewhere, but the majority were for the home market.

Sony Introduces Country's First OLED TV: Live @ CES 2008 (With Video) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/reviews/4243582.html)
"LAS VEGAS, January 6 — Sony's been selling OLED TVs for awhile—just not the US. In fact, despite their massive price tag and puny screen size, Sony quickly sold out their entire Japanese stock. Maybe that's what motivated them to give the product a shot over here."

OLEDs: First Sony televisions sold out in Japan (http://www.plasteurope.com/pie-ticker/detail.asp?id=209696)
The world’s first OLED televisions. manufactured by Sony, were sold out almost as soon as they hit retailers’ shelves in Japan. By 23 November 2007, only a day after delivery started, the first month’s entire supply of 1,300 OLED TVs had changed hands at a price of just over EUR 1,200 each. A further 700 “XEL-1” televisions were displayed in store windows, although the next batch would not be on sale for another three weeks. The new ultra-thin TV sets are not even making it to the stores in other countries.

After they sold out in Japan, they sent a few to other countries' stores to give those markets a test. Looks like the dynamics were very different in your country. It wasn't the original plan.

Don't expect the next OLED TV from any manufacturer to sell at the same per-inch price; its primary market may or may not be Japan and the sales plan will likely be different from the XEL-1's.

greenland

02-12-08, 02:26 PM

Sony claims that they lost money on every one of the eleven inch OLED displays that were sold for over $2.000.00 each.

Isochroma

02-12-08, 02:27 PM

Correct. But it was a hell of a show, was it not?

greenland

02-12-08, 02:39 PM

I posted this at an earlier date, but I though people might be interested in the details about how the 11 inch Sony panels are constructed.Here is a link to a site that has purchased the new Sony OLED display and have taken it apart to examine the internal components.

There is also a Windows Media video clip on the site showing them taking the display apart. Enjoy.

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english...071127/143111/ (http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20071127/143111/)

[Breaking Down OLED TV] We Got Sony's OLED TV

greenland

02-15-08, 08:01 PM

Blackraven

02-18-08, 09:39 AM

Here is a link to Sound and Visions detail test report of the Sony 11" OLED set.

They give it a very positive review.

Go to the link to read the entire review.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hdtvs/2740/exclusive-we-size-up-sonys-oled-tv.html

Hmm.....

Is there a difference between the Japanese version to the ones sold at Sony Style stores in America? (apart from the former having a BS-110 Hi-vision tuner)

Isochroma

02-18-08, 02:08 PM

Makers to Sharpen Organic ‘Dream Displays’ (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2008/02/123_19040.html)
17 February 2008

Display manufacturers such as Samsung SDI and LG.Philips LCD (LPL) have been locking horns for the expansion of investment into the active-matrix organic light emitting diodes (AM OLED) industry, called “dream displays.’’

Samsung SDI said on Sunday it is engaged in the second phase of investment to sharpen its AM OLED lines.

“The move is intended to double monthly production capacity to 3 million units this year from the current 1.5 million by cutting costs,’’ a Samsung SDI spokesperson said.

Samsung SDI had invested some 477.5 billion won in its AM OLED plant in Cheonan, South Chungcheong Province, and said in October last year that it would double monthly output capacity of the displays this year.

Flat screen manufacturers anticipate that AM OLED displays will replace the currently dominating LCD panels on multimedia gadgets such as mobile phones.

Despite the high error rates in production of larger size panels, the biggest obstacle in price competition, AM OLEDs are widely regarded as “dream displays’’ due to their advantages in color, brightness, response time and thickness than conventional liquid crystal displays.

Inspired by rising demand for high-end multimedia devices, local and overseas display makers including Sony are pouring billions of dollars into research and development of the next-generation displays to grab an opportunity to charge premium prices.

While experts claim that the technology is still in an initial stage and mass production of larger panels will take at least five years, the market will grow to 70 million units or $2.5 billion worth by 2010 from some 3 million units amounting to $130 million in sales.

LPL, which recently merged AM OLED lines from LG Electronics, also plans to confirm its investment in AM OLEDs in the first half.

“We are considering building a new plant for AM OLEDs. The announcement will be made no later than June,’’ a spokesperson from LPL said.

“A recent decision to change the company name to LG Displays reflects our goals for a bigger presence in the next-generation display market,’’ the official said.

Samsung Electronics has joined the trend by establishing the test line for AM OLED television panels with the mass production date slated for 2009.

“As previously declared, we will focus on the 20-inch AM OLED panel. The test line aims to review the possibility in the larger size panel before the mass production,’’ a spokesperson from Samsung Electronics said.

IncraTL

02-18-08, 07:45 PM

For the main display in a home, I agree that 50" is a good starting point. However, there is still a good market for smaller displays for use in a kitchen, bedrooms, etc. I personally would not want a display larger than about 40" for use in our current bedroom.
I agree. It depends what you are doing while watching the display. For me, when I'm working out on the Elliptical cross trainer, an 11" display would be perfect.

greenland

02-19-08, 10:37 AM

Sony to invest approximately 22 billion yen to strengthen OLED panel technology
Press release, February 19; Emily Chuang, DIGITIMES [Tuesday 19 February 2008] http://www.digitimes.com/Images/spacepx.gif
Sony has announced plans to invest approximately 22 billion yen (US$204 million) to strengthen its OLED panel production technology. With the investment, Sony intends to accelerate the shift to medium- to large-size OLED panels.
Sony began researching OLED technology in 1994, and has since positioned OLED as a future-generation display technology. In December 2007, Sony launched the world's first OLED TV, "XEL-1" in Japan.
In order to advance the shift towards medium- to large-size OLED panels, Sony has decided to invest towards the further development of production technologies starting from the second half of the fiscal year ending March 31, 2009. Sony will reinforce its TFT and EL (electroluminescent) layer coating processing facilities at Sony Mobile Display's Higashiura factory, and plans to implement this production technology during the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010.

Isochroma

02-19-08, 04:20 PM

Sony bets $200 million on large screen OLED TVs (http://www.dailytech.com/Sony+Drops+200+Million+on+OLED+Manufacturing+Technology/article10759.htm)
19 February 2008

LCD TV sales are booming thanks to the digital transition in the United States. With incredible adoption rates, prices are plumetting and LCD manufacturers are ramping up production to meet consumer demands.

Sony is looking to the future of the thin TV segment and announced today it will spend $200 million (http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUST35031320080219) on technology needed to develop medium to large size OLED panels. In October of 2007, Sony was first to market with an OLED TV (http://www.dailytech.com/Slender+Beautiful+First+OLED+TV+Introduced/article9108.htm).

Typical LCD substrate factories run billions of dollars; Samsung and Sony poured more than $2 billion (http://www.dailytech.com/Samsung+Sony+Team+to+Expand+Plant+Capacity+for+LargeSize+LCD +Panels/article1696.htm) into their 7th generation LCD facility capable of producing 50,000 panels per month. OLED carries a considerably lower production cost, though only a few companies worldwide possess the intellectual property and design patents to build OLED monitors and televisions.

The Sony XEL-1 was a small TV with a screen size of 11-inches and it sported a super thin profile of only 3mm thick. The other promises OLED panels give to TV fans are brighter colors and less power consumption thanks to no need for a backlight.

The catch with the Sony XEL-1 was the price; the tiny TV set retailed for around $1,700. In addition to the high cost Sony was only able to produce about 2000 (http://www.dailytech.com/Only+2000+Sony+OLED+TVs+Available+in+Japan/article9741.htm) of the TVs each month because of the difficult and costly manufacturing process the OLED panels require.

Other large LCD TV makers are also looking to get into production of larger OLED TVs. Samsung unveiled a 31-inch OLED TV at CES 2008 (http://www.dailytech.com/Samsung+Unveils+31inch+OLED+Screen/article10155.htm). Toshiba had promised to bring large screen OLED TVs to market, then had a change of heart and announced it would not be bringing OLED TVs of larger screen sizes to market after all (http://www.dailytech.com/Toshiba+Breaks+OLED+TV+Promise/article10046.htm).

MrEastSide

02-19-08, 09:09 PM

willyolio

02-20-08, 02:12 PM

because thinness sells. you barely even have to advertise it. just put it down somewhere, and 95% of the people who walk by will instantly think "oh my god it's so thin i want it."

i mean, look at the Macbook Air. it has crap for functionality, crap for performance, horrible price, and yet people who see it simply want it.

on the manufacturing side, OLED should scale much better than LCD and eventually become much cheaper to mass-produce.

cajieboy

02-20-08, 02:26 PM

I understand that these things produce amazing pictures and have other benefits as well. But, why are so many people hung up on being so excited over how thin they are? Is it really a hassle or unattractive where we're at now, having LCDs and plasmas that are 3-4 inches thin? lol! I mean, really. It's cool that OLEDs can be so thin, but I don't think that should be something everyone should be so major excited about. I think at 3 inches or so most TVs now are pretty awesome depth-wise.

It's not really the "thickness" of the OLED display that excites so many people (although that is a nice benefit), but rather it is the OLED video technology itself, and what OLED will or can be in the near future.

the_gunner

02-21-08, 09:49 AM

I understand that these things produce amazing pictures and have other benefits as well. But, why are so many people hung up on being so excited over how thin they are?

The idea of one day being able to hang up a 100" flexible OLED display that's 1mm thin and only weighs 5 lb is very appealing to me, and I would pay a pretty penny for it.

nx211

02-24-08, 11:08 PM

Last Sunday night I was near the Sony building on Madison Avenue in NYC so I stopped in to check out their new little OLED display. I was only able to spend a few minutes with it but that was more than enough time to figure out that this OLED technology is the flat panel technology for those looking for a display technology that has the potential to be the true quality successor to the aperture grill.

Blacks
Noticeably superior to most LCD panels currently made. Black is comparable/equal to black generated on either of my two Sony CRT XBR models that I have, notably, the better of the two, my Sony 34XBR970. Black is pretty much black as black can possibly be.

Response Time
I saw absolutely no pixel/image delay whatsoever. The moving images appeared to be comparable to CRT technology as well. Man, I can still remember the very first time that I saw a movie playing on a LCD screen, (It was a laptop). It was during the PC Expo that used to be held annually in NYC. It was about 10 or so years ago. It was a horrific experience to say the least! I believe those first panels had a response time of something like 40ms. I thought to myself how can anybody be so blind and tolerate putting up with watching a movie on a display like this. The delay was horrible compared to that of an electron beam painting the image on even the least expensive CRT sets available. Granted, today's LCD panels have much improved pixel response times, but the problem is still there. At least I can still notice it.

Color Accuracy
Due to the very short time I had with the display, I was unable to really determine how well the color spectrum compares to that of the better CRTs out there. On first blush, the colors did look good, in fact, they looked very good to excellent. But I would have to reserve final judgment on this until I can spend some more time with the display.

All that being said, I would still like to see how well this technology holds up with a much larger sized display. Additionally, another performance metric that I would be anxious to compare to that of a quality CRT display, is to see what digitized film grain looks like on a large OLED display. I feel this is another area that large LCD panels fall far short in when compared to a quality analogue CRT display. Perhaps due to a LCD's relatively long pixel response time, digitized film grain looks pretty bad on current large LCD panels, I wonder if this would be improved upon with OLED technology? When walking into a TV retailer, ever notice that most of the time the flat panel displays are showing animated video or brightly shot high-def imagery. Seldom do you see a digitized film playing (especially an older film), in its entirety on LCD panels in showrooms, unless it's a loop of exceptionally clean, carefully selected, noise free scenes. Digitized film grain on large Hi-Def displays isn't pretty. Even on my somewhat smallish 34XBR970, you can see the limitations of the display imposed by digitized film grain carried along a digital 1080i video signal, but it looks a whole lot better than any LCD panel I've ever seen.

I'm glad to see that the men at the helm of Sony are pursuing a display technology that has the potential of being the true quality successor to the aperture grill and something that Akio Morita would be proud of to put the Sony name on - not settling for electrifying some crystal nonsense flipping around in a chemical emulsion with lighting provided by florescent tubes - passed off to blind people (with more money than brains) as display technology.

Way to go Sony.

nx211

Isochroma

02-25-08, 01:07 AM

Your report confirms that the units are certainly impressive. Undoubtedly, and as they trickle into the hands of reviewers, more definitive and, in particular, quantitative results will be published.

In general the review is excellently written with good attributional insight; in short, an excellent contribution to the thread.

I believe that if you ever get an OLED into a blackroom, you'll fine its black to be as invisible as the walls that surround, or the floor evermore.

What's less certain is the reflectivity; the Sony units so far seem to have fairly reflective glass surface. It won't be a problem for those like me, who only watch at night, in a completely dark room.

Those unlucky enough to use such a unit in daylight, esp. sunny conditions, will find that like PDP, specular reflections will be produced. This is assuming that no manufacturer makes a matte screen OLED. However, OLED in this case will have one advantage: PDP's phosphor reflectance adds to the panel's total reflectivity significantly; its diffuse reflectance makes it impossible to avoid by changing viewer-screen placement. OLED has a much lower internal reflectance as it lacks the oxide phosphor powder that is inevitably white or gray.

If I needed a matte screen, I'd just have it custom coated or polished. It would be a small investment on such expensive units, possibly for a long time dependant on the product cost decline (hopefully) curve.

johnnybrulez

02-26-08, 03:30 AM

Can you use this as a monitor? :-D

ad72

02-27-08, 07:40 PM

Considering manufacturers have issues with making large size OLED's, it will be LCDs market share that OLEDs will take over not plasma's. If manufacturers had issues with making small OLEDs and could only make big ones (50"+), then the plasma market share would be affected first.

If OLEDs come in 32" to 42" sizes, that's not going to deter would be plasma buyers looking for a 50"+ screen. The only tvs in the 32" to 42" range are LCDs (besides the 42" Panasonic pdp).

Isochroma

02-27-08, 07:43 PM

It seems you are probably correct, at least to start. If OLED succeeds at upscaling its size beyond 42" then the threat will come knocking on PDP's door. Do remember, however, that a large portion of today's PDP market is at 42"; 58% in 2007, predicted to be 42% in 2008 (http://tft-malaysia.blogspot.com/2007/12/global-pdp-market-to-grow-27-in-2008-40.html).

In other words, there will be casualties in both camps, right off the bat.

greenland

02-28-08, 09:17 AM

Provided that they can introduce a 42inch OLED at a price level that is not beyond the budget level of most consumers!.

cpc

02-28-08, 09:31 AM

I saw a Sony guy on the local news station showing off the 11" Sony OLED TV. Has there been any developments lately that indicate that the OLED technology could be used in front projectors in the future?

navychop

02-28-08, 06:23 PM

It's a self-luminous direct view technology.

Tectonic

02-29-08, 10:41 AM

As a gamer in refusal to switch to LCD due to blurring and low refresh rates (I still use CRT, and I love 1024x768 at 140hz with vsync), I'm really interested in what OLED could bring to the desktop PC as well as laptop screens. Sadly, I'm also hooked on a 21" screen with 1600x1200 resolution, so I expect it will be a while before OLED will meet all my desires in a monitor.

Are there hopes for seeing high-resolution (1024x768 or 1280x1024 or 1600x1200) OLED monitors (17", 19", 21") within a couple years? When discussing the difficulty in creating large OLED panels, is it due to the size of the pixel, the resolution of the screen, or both?

navychop

03-01-08, 12:40 PM

I believe it is difficult at this time to build large sheets defect free.

pchemist

03-05-08, 12:55 AM

The Nikkei Electronics Breakdown Team finished measuring the display properties of Sony's OLED TV. Next, we moved on to observe the pixel structure in detail with the help from a panel engineer. . . . Because the TV only uses two TFTs, it has a higher pixel aperture ratio over the product using more TFTs. The Nikkei Electronics Breakdown Team estimated that the latest panel has an aperture ratio of about 75%, which is considerably high. It is likely that Sony prioritized the enhancement of aperture ratio in the designing to fully utilize the emitting material whose life is not adequately long.
.

I also hate ... the low aperture ratio that makes PDPs look grainy up close, unlike LCDs.

I agree completely. For me, aperture ratio is critical -- which is why I'd love to see some actual numbers; that would make the comparison among OLED, plasma, and LCD flat panel displays more precise. Do you have aperture ratios for plasma and LCD flat panel displays? I've not been able to find them. Including what you posted above, here's what I've uncovered thus far:

APERTURE RATIOS, FLAT PANEL TECHNOLOGIES:

OLED (UXGA): 75%
Plasma (UXGA): ??
Plasma (XGA): ??
LCD (UXGA): ??
LCD (XGA): ??

APERTURE RATIOS, PROJECTION TECHNOLOGIES:

3LCD, current generation (Epson D7, UXGA): ??
3LCD, current generation (Epson D7, XGA): 79%**
3LCD, last generation (XGA): 65%*

DILA/LCOS (UXGA): 92-93%

DLP, current generation (UXGA): 95%***
DLP, last generation: 91%*

*http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/10014/32158/01505648.pdf?arnumber=1505648
**http://www.epson.co.jp/e/newsroom/2008/news_20080131.htm
***http://www.dlp.com/projectors/1080p.aspx

Isochroma

03-05-08, 02:58 AM

pchemist

03-05-08, 03:37 AM

PDP has low aperture ratio due to the gas cells requiring sturdy walls to maintain structural integrity with existing pressure difference. These walls separate pixels on the horizontal and vertical. In some designs, the horizontal walls are so thick they are easily visible as wide spaces between visible emission rectangles. I've seen this many times before in my up-close examinations of PDP.

As for OLED, its builders have, as the Nikkei mentions, more flexibility in their design. I'm willing to bet quite a sum that the lowest aperture ratio of any commercial design will be nicely larger than any existing or future PDP. LCD, being much more similar in layout design, also has the same high AR.

Slightly off-topic but still quite relevant, the panel closest to OLED which sells commerically at present (apart from the 11" Sony unit), is the Pioneer Kuro line of PDPs. Unfortunately, they are divesting (http://ca.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idCAT22772520080304) their manufacturing operations.

Yup, I see the same thick ribbing you do on PDPs -- but I'd still be very interested to see some comparative numbers for aperture ratios for plasma and LCD flat panels. For me, it makes the comparison more solid.

As an aside, I find the Pioneer's visible ribs more bothersome than those on the Fujitsu PDPs. It may be that Fujitsu has a higher aperture ratio than Pioneer. But again, it would be nice to have the actual numbers. Perhaps Pioneer made thicker ribs to get higher ANSI contrast numbers. Fujitsu, by comparison, may have been willing to sacrifice ANSI contrast to get something they (and I) value even more: a less fatiguing, smoother, less digital and more natural image. In fact, I recall the Fujitsu white paper also said that they actually wanted some bleed between the pixels. It lowers the ANSI contrast, but makes for, overall, a better picture. Too bad Fujitsu couldn't match the Kuros' blacks.

xrox

03-05-08, 11:40 AM

You guys shoud take some pictures like this of all the different techs (it would be interesting):

LINK (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=76329)

Note that for PDP, bus over rib designs and thin rib technology is possible.

borf

03-06-08, 01:21 AM

Samsung unveils 31 inch OLED at CeBIT.
My french is bad but they seem to be excited.

Quick review (http://www.behardware.com/news/9444/cebit-samsung-unveils-a-31-inch-oled.html)
Quick Video - viewing angles (http://www.lesnumeriques.com/news_id-4530.html)

http://www.behardware.com/medias/photos_news/00/22/IMG0022373.jpg

For the little amount of time we saw it, the TV in question was :
•very bright and contrasted,
•particularly reactive and with rendering superior to current LCD TVs, according to our eyes,
•is extremely thin,
•has almost perfect viewing angles

:)

Isochroma

03-06-08, 05:07 PM

Samsung SDI's AMOLEDs reach volume production in 2007, says DisplaySearch (http://www.digitimes.com/displays/a20080306PR204.html)
6 March 2008

Sony got all the attention in the fourth quarter of 2007 with the release of its 11-inch XEL-1 TV, but Samsung SDI drove the market, pushing shipments to 20.2 million units, which was up 30% sequentially but down 9% on year. For the year, total revenues grew 6% to US$493.9 million units and total shipments grew 8% to 74.7 million units, according to DisplaySearch. The shipment mix is changing, as AMOLEDs had a 9.7% share of total revenues in the third quarter of 2007, which jumped to 41% in fourth quarter of 2007.

By the first quarter of 2008, AMOLEDs will represent 55.6% of total revenues as LG Display enters the AMOLED market and Chi Mei Electronics, Samsung SDI and Sony continue to ramp up, noted Barry Young, senior advisor, DisplaySearch.

Sony shipped 2,000 11-inch displays for use in the XEL-1 last December and is expected to ship 6,000 panels in the first quarter of 2008. Chi Mei Electronics increased its production of AMOLED panels, shipping 6,000 units in the fourth quarter of 2007 up from 1,600 in the third quarter of 2007. LG Display, formerly LG. Philips LCD, took over LGE's PMOLED fab and is expected to ship 150,000 AMOLED panels for use in the recently announced LG-SH150A in the first quarter of 2008.

AMOLEDs are beginning to hit their stride in the small/medium market with Nokia, Samsung, LG and Sony Ericsson all releasing products in the fourth quarter of 2007, Young stated. Multiple product introductions in the next two quarters may appear, and the panel size will jump to 2.6-inch and larger compared to previously announced 2.2-to 2.4-inch models, he added.

Due to a strong fourth quarter, total OLED 2007 revenues reached US$493.9M, a new record, led by Samsung SDI, RiTdisplay and Pioneer. Showing strong results in microdisplays, eMagin slipped into the top five for the first time.

Zoo

03-06-08, 08:43 PM

Well... It's a start! Moving these 11" sets will generate some good press for Sony and allow them to work out some manufacturing bugs on the sets. It will be cool when you can get a 27"-32" 720p or 1080p set for around the same $2500. That would make a great bedroom set for me!

Also, it will be cool if some manufacturers start to do 20"-24" sizes that are suited for computer use.

Either way the tech seems pretty exciting and while my next set will probably be an LCD I can see an OLED in my future (55" and up sets will probably not be readily available or affordable for at least another 5-7 years).

chmilar

03-11-08, 06:59 PM

This has just started hitting all of the news outlets:

http://www.oled-info.com/ge/ge_demonstrates_worlds_first_roll_to_roll_manufactured_oleds

Some GE researchers have devised a much cheaper way to manufacture OLEDs. It sounds like they are targetting "efficient lighting", not televisions.

pwang8

03-12-08, 01:39 PM

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080312-oleds-inch-closer-to-mass-market-via-ge-manufacturing-tweak.html

bgosselin

03-12-08, 11:44 PM

I believe that if you ever get an OLED into a blackroom, you'll fine its black to be as invisible as the walls that surround, or the floor evermore.

I have the small Oled Sony TV at home since sunday night. I have to give it back next friday.

I try to mesured contrast ratio but it turn out to be impossible. In my theater room with black walls, ceilling and black carpet I don't see any light coming out of the screen when I display a 0IRE frame. Not even after a few minute. It just look like the TV is off. I try with my extech meter but it can detect any light either. That is better than my 27inch CRT TV for sure. I would quote infinite contraste ratio buy looking at this thing.

TV is very impressive. Dark scenes are gorgeous. The image remind me of my Pio plasma (6th generation) but with better shadow details. Image as a lot of punch. You can watch the TV an any angle without any picture degradation (contrary to LCD tv)

I do mesure closer to 6500k with the Warm2 setting. The expand colors setting provide with a larger gamut than the rec709 standard. It's similar to the color you get from an RS1 for example. Probably more saturated even. Normal colors seem to be better but I didn't measure the primaries and secondaries with that mode (measured were taken with a CA6X probe and the Progressive labs software)

I didn't experiment with the noise reduction or any other gadget. The excellent black could actually be annoying. I check Equilibrium on DVD. The first scene involving the cleric has him running into a dark room. The image stay black for a few seconds. On the OLED TV I could see all the bad compression artifacts. I had to crush black reducing brightness to it's 50 settings (I found 51 to be a better level with test pattern). It amazing how that notch is visible on that technology. Maybe 50 was the exact level. But my point is that a simple mistake in brightness adjustment make compression default very visible. That what you get from a 1000000:1 contrast display.

Don't know when this will be available in 50 inches size. But I'm sure it could sell even at 4 or 5 time plasma prices. This thing is tiny. It's amazing, the quality you get by looking at something that when turn off, just look like a thin piece of shinny plastic.

Bruno

Zoo

03-13-08, 12:19 AM

Wow! Thanks for your impressions.

It sure sound like the killer type of tech that many have been waiting for. As I said earlier a 27"-32" 16x9 would be a great set for my bedroom as would a 22"-24" widescreen computer monitor.

Hopefully one day these things will be at 55" or so with a price tag in the $4000 price range. While this might sound overly optimistic just look at what plasmas have done in the past decade. OLED will go the same route and sets will get larger and less expensive.

Isochroma

03-13-08, 02:18 AM

Your detailed review of the Sony unit is much apreciated, and vindicates my statement as quoted. As larger OLED TVs & monitors become commercially available, they will decimate both LCD and PDP on virtually all measures of image quality.

borf

03-13-08, 03:20 AM

Here's to that but black detail is more important for me - sounds good in both areas from that.

madshi

03-13-08, 04:15 AM

@Bruno, have you tried checking out how motion is handled? Does the Sony OLED does anything to counter the sample-and-hold effect like e.g. using black frame insertion or anything like that?

navychop

03-13-08, 06:23 PM

Yes, your comments are most appreciated. Merci.

CRT_Nooob

03-14-08, 06:00 AM

@Bruno, have you tried checking out how motion is handled? Does the Sony OLED does anything to counter the sample-and-hold effect like e.g. using black frame insertion or anything like that?

I second that. On paper, it looks like it will handle motion like LCD. Waiting for viewers input to confirm.

bgosselin

03-14-08, 12:48 PM

I'm keeping the OLED for another 5 days. So I will have more time to play with it.

Gamma on the standard mode and the setting at off is at 2.1.

Good grayscale tracking but the very low IRE like 5-10-and 15 all have a pinkish grey. I don't have access to any gain or offset for individual colors so it can't be corrected. I didn't see any effect on dark scene just yet.

The Screen performs like plasma. If I take the lux reading with an IRE window I read 505 lux. If I take the same measure, but with a full field white instead, it goes down to 300 lux. I know it's the new big thing but in real time viewing it's not a problem to my eyes.
Audio sync with HDMI is really bad. Every time you change menu or change source you ear a squeaking noise. Analog audio perform way better.

It does handle 1080p24 very well. I robot via my PS3 was really fluid.

Maybe you can tell me how I can test the sample-and-hold effect. My personal feeling is that it does perform like an LCD on that regard but it is fast. No motion blur or anything.

I have a cartoon call "Reboot» I used a test screen were a green character pass in front of the screen from right to left then back. I used this shot first to check my Optoma H77 panning performance back then. But I now use it on a regular basis to evaluate how fast and accurate panning is handle with different displays. I used that scene last night on the Sony and the character was display in its full glory. The best I have seen so far. I do have the impression that I’m looking at a bunch of picture being quickly swap in front of my face. Probably because of that "sample and hold effect" you are talking about. I would like to confirm that with a more scientific method.

There is not much difference between a DVD and its HD version on that screen. Obviously the lower resolution is causing this. I also don't feel the 3D effect as much as with my plasma. But that is probably cause by the lower resolution and the size of the screen.

Dark scenes are very impressive. I check Star Wars Attack of the Clone and I never saw so many stars.

The noise reduction is very impressive. With an HQV HD DVD demo disk I ran the noise screen and the Sony internal processing eliminate them perfectly. I have the feeling it's as good if not better than a mosquito Algolith in that regard. I never use that feature usually because it soften the image. But it is still a nice feature when needed.

Bruno

Isochroma

03-14-08, 01:19 PM

I second that. On paper, it looks like it will handle motion like LCD. Waiting for viewers input to confirm.

Paper is so yesterday... how about some reviews to unconfirm?

ZDNet Sonly XEL-1 OLED TV Review & Comparison (http://review.zdnet.com/flat-panel-and-plasma/sony-xel-1-oled/4505-6482_16-32815284.html):

"The Sony XEL-1 evinced no smearing or blurring in motion even with difficult test material, which helps back up Sony's claim regarding OLED's fast response times."

In other words, it handles motion nothing like an LCD; predicting device characteristics from paper is not as reliable as it may seem.

borf

03-14-08, 06:07 PM

I wonder how it handles sample-and-hold.

willyolio

03-14-08, 08:48 PM

I have a cartoon call "Reboot»
really? that was the most amazing part of your review.

man, i loved that show.

notreally

03-15-08, 12:57 PM

refresh rate measured in nanoseconds. Competitive larger sizes in 2-3 years.:D

8IronBob

03-16-08, 12:05 AM

cajieboy

03-16-08, 12:17 AM

Yeah... For the short term, OLED may be a joke, but after 2009/2010, or so, then we'll most certainly be adopting that or even SED into our homes sooner than later. (SED should be another technology to keep our eyes on).

SED is pretty much finished for good. This video tech has been deemed moot as video tech gains in Plasma & LCD tech along w/low pricing has made SED still-born. Also, the advancements in OLED has leapfrogged SED, which put the final nail in SED's coffin. Doubt seriously if we'll ever see a SED re-born, but who knows...there's been stranger things happen in the CE world.

Isochroma

03-16-08, 03:37 AM

Agreed. OLED is superior to SED in several characteristics.

navychop

03-16-08, 11:45 AM

SED has risen from the grave before. It now has a silver bullet and a stake in it. And worst of all, now a bunch of lawyers standing on it's grave to ensure dead stays Dead.

No more SED fantasies. Some of us want to believe it was the best, and we'll all be deprived of it due to (fill in the conspiracy blank). It only had marketing claims and limited demos. No proof of longevity or even PQ claims under independent conditions.

Other technologies are "more than good enough" for most people, and are further along the development/manufacturing/cost cutting curve for SED to ever catch up. They missed their window, even for professional use. Worse, new technologies like OLED have developed faster than expected, and have far greater potential for great cost reductions while delivering excellent PQ.

I stand by my claim: Years from now, displays will become cheap again, about as cheap as CRTs were when they died out (adjusting for inflation).

8IronBob

03-16-08, 02:01 PM

Yeah, you're right about HDTVs matching up with CRT SDTV pricing. Right now, your 720p LCD HDTVs are all there already. Won't be too long until 1080p replaces those 720p first-gen HDTVs that most of us already have or had. That's only the first phase in the HDTV development. Definitely gonna see if OLED will even go beyond 1080p. We may expect 1280p or 1600p out of these. Dunno if they're gonna go THAT high in resolution, but just saying.

EDIT: After seeing the Cnet review on the 11" Sony OLED, I'd have to say, even David Katzmaier (the guy who made the video review) said that it was a joke that Sony is up to their old game. He said that it was nice, BUT...it's far too overpriced, and hardly a good size for a TV for the average consumer, and it's not even an HDTV, it's only at most an EDTV, if even that... I mean, unless Sony can come up with at least a 42" 1080p OLED for that same price tag, I'm not really gonna give this tech too much thought.

madshi

03-17-08, 06:42 AM

Maybe you can tell me how I can test the sample-and-hold effect. My personal feeling is that it does perform like an LCD on that regard but it is fast. No motion blur or anything.
If it performed like an LCD that you would have motion blur... ;)

The sample-and-hold effect is an effect which is produced by our brain/eyes. Basically when displays are "always on" and then show moving images, our eyes try to follow the motion. But the images only move in 24fps (movie content) or 60fps (video content). Basically each frame sits still for a while and then suddenly jumps to the next position. There's no fluid change from one frame to another. Our eyes/brain don't like this approach. As a result we see the image smear a bit, although in reality the display doesn't really show any smearing. CRTs don't have this problem cause they are impulse displays. So our eyes see "black" most of the time and only once in a while a real frame. This can cause flickering. But the image stays very sharp during motion.

Ok, so how to measure this? Please check out the paragraph "Static and Motion Resolution" here:

http://hdguru.com/?p=187

whityfrd

03-17-08, 09:40 AM

oled is only compared to lcd because it has no glass. thats it.

8IronBob

03-17-08, 10:05 AM

Yeah... Shame about SED, tho. At least that looked more promising being 55", and 1080p Full HD, iirc. At least that most certainly would've been in the consumers' best interest. 11" EDTV for that price tag is a joke, imho. I'd expect to see a 42" 1080p from another brand and a technology with the same results for a price tag like that, but Sony is Sony, what are you gonna do?

Just lemme know when Sony finally gets into more comfortable price ranges and bigger screen sizes, and Full HD.

cajieboy

03-17-08, 12:19 PM

Just lemme know when Sony finally gets into more comfortable price ranges and bigger screen sizes, and Full HD.

Okay, we'll contact you sometime in 2015.

pchemist

03-17-08, 04:58 PM

From smarthouse.com: The high energy consumption of OLED TV's (2-3x that for LCD of same size) may prevent them from being sold in many markets, b/c of upcoming government requirements for energy efficiency of consumer electronic devices.

http://www.smarthouse.com.au/TVs_And_Large_Display/OLED_TV/Q9C5R6T2

Isochroma

03-18-08, 02:50 PM

Osram claims new levels of efficiency and lifetime for OLEDs (http://www.digitimes.com/displays/a20080318PR201.html)
18 March 2008

http://www.digitimes.com/NewsShow/20080318PR201_files/1_r.jpg

Orasm OLED

Osram claims it has achieved record values of efficiency and lifetime while maintaining the brightness of warm white organic light emitting diodes (OLEDs). For the first time, laboratory researchers have demonstrated it is possible to improve two crucial OLED characteristics simultaneously: efficiency and lifetime, according to the company. Up to now, higher efficiency meant shorter life, and vice-versa.

Karsten Heuser, director of OLED Lighting Technology at Osram Opto Semiconductors, said, "Our development team has reached a real milestone for warm white OLEDs with efficiency of 46lm/W and a 5,000-hour lifetime, at a brightness of 1,000 cd/m². With these significant increases, flat OLED light sources are approaching the values of conventional lighting solutions and are therefore becoming attractive for a wide variety of applications."

The color rendering index (CRI) of the almost 100cm² prototype is 80. By March 2009, Osram researchers expect that a demonstrator for an energy-saving flat OLED light module comprising several tiles will be able to deliver an overall luminous flux of 500 lm from a power consumption of less than 10W.

8IronBob

03-20-08, 11:47 AM

Now that I see it, Sony does have a 27" 1080p OLED, but who knows when that's expected to come to market? I mean, that 11" was a joke, imho, 27" is more like it.

yanxuanjun

03-24-08, 07:58 PM

Sony does have a 27" 1080p OLED,but maybe only have ONE,the high energy consumption may prevent it from market(the energy consumption of the Sony 11" OLED-TV is about 45w,but the standard consumption of 40" LCD-TV is less than 250w).But I don't understand why OLED-TV is less efficient than LCD-TV?

daltonlanny

03-25-08, 03:13 AM

Dang it.
And I thought OLED was supposed to be way more efficient than either plasma or LCD.
At least thats what I read somewhere.
I also read somewhere that OLED's may have burn-in issues as well.
All this is very disappointing.

slacker711

03-25-08, 08:00 AM

Dang it.
And I thought OLED was supposed to be way more efficient than either plasma or LCD.
At least thats what I read somewhere.

The reason for the confusion is that there are different types of materials used to create OLED's. OLED's created using phosphorescent materials (PHOLED's) are substantially more energy efficient than those made using fluorescent materials. It gets even more complicated because some OLED's use a red PHOLED combined with a green and blue fluorescent material (this results in some energy savings versus an LCD or plasma).

This split is why you see energy consumption estimates that are all over the place. Toshiba was trying to create an OLED using all fluorescent materials, but as the recent quotes make clear, they now realize that the energy consumption would have been prohibitive. Other companies, such as Samsung SDI, are using PHOLED's and should be able to create TV's that use less energy. The key obstacle is increasing the lifetime of the blue and green materials (red is ready to go). That will also reduce the chances of burn-in.

Slacker

8IronBob

03-25-08, 09:09 AM

Yeah, I'd much rather have Samsung's LED backlit LCD panels if Sony let us down like that. At least they lead to more efficiency over a flourescent light tube. As far as how much more efficient that is over OLED, tho, tha's another thing.

xrox

03-25-08, 09:42 AM

The reason for the confusion is that there are different types of materials used to create OLED's. OLED's created using phosphorescent materials (PHOLED's) are substantially more energy efficient than those made using fluorescent materials. It gets even more complicated because some OLED's use a red PHOLED combined with a green and blue fluorescent material (this results in some energy savings versus an LCD or plasma).

This split is why you see energy consumption estimates that are all over the place. Toshiba was trying to create an OLED using all fluorescent materials, but as the recent quotes make clear, they now realize that the energy consumption would have been prohibitive. Other companies, such as Samsung SDI, are using PHOLED's and should be able to create TV's that use less energy. The key obstacle is increasing the lifetime of the blue and green materials (red is ready to go). That will also reduce the chances of burn-in.

SlackerWhile this may be true, it seems the biggest issue with OLED power consumption has to do with the low light extraction efficiency and loss in the electronics.

8IronBob

03-25-08, 10:13 AM

As I said, now that Samsung has had experience in LED technology with television, I'd like to think that they should be the ones that come out with something more innovative than Sony did, imho. After all, they've been using it as a backlight technology for the better part of the last three years, iirc. Now, having that same technology become the standard, well, that should be Sammy's bag, not Sony.

Don't get me wrong. I mean, you see Samsung using LED backlight in their higher-end LCD flat panels and DLP projection TVs, so it's only fitting that they come out with something that will actually redefine what this new LED technology can do with more efficiency. Even tho it may not be as efficient as "O" LED, but it does, however, lead to be more superior in PQ to traditional flourescent tubes and bulbs. So we'll need to see how well this will evolve.

navychop

03-25-08, 09:38 PM

OLED, in theory, and in the future, can be more efficient than other display technologies, and cheaper to make.

We'll see how things actually turn out.

yanxuanjun

03-25-08, 10:23 PM

Thanks for everyone's discussion,the main reason for the enery consumption of the OLED is the enery loss in the electronics.many reports tell the OLED cell is more efficient than TFT-LCD cell,but in the OLED-TV,the energy consumption increase much more,so Toshiba has relayed OLED-TV production. The large cool plate in Sony's 11'OLED -TV ialso indicate the main reason of consumption is due to loss of electronic circuits but not display.

slacker711

03-25-08, 11:09 PM

I cant claim to be an expert, but I have trouble understanding why the chips driving the OLED display would need more energy when they are driving a display that requires less power. I can say with certainty that small scale (2 to 3") OLED's are using less power than their equivalent sized LCD's. These are created using red PHOLED's and green/blue fluorescent's.

FWIW, here is the most dramatic example that I know of showing the difference between OLED power consumption and LCD's. Of course, it is from a trade show so you have to take it with a grain of salt, but I do think it is directionally accurate. CMEL has generally used PHOLED's for their display and I assume that is the case here.

http://image.itmedia.co.jp/l/im/lifestyle/articles/0710/24/l_ts_fpd015.jpg

http://image.itmedia.co.jp/l/im/lifestyle/articles/0710/24/l_ts_fpd016.jpg

Slacker

Isochroma

03-26-08, 02:08 AM

Please fix your links, they are both dead.

slacker711

03-26-08, 07:29 AM

yanxuanjun

03-26-08, 09:08 PM

xrox

03-26-08, 09:51 PM

We know all the light from displayer are all transformed from electric energy, so the energy consumption of TFT-LCD or AM-OLED are determined by the conversion efficiency and light extraction efficiency. conversion efficiency include loss in electronic circuits and light emitting material (to TFT-LCD is backlight),light extraction efficiency for AM-OLED is about 45%,including transmission of ITO and polar(to TFT-LCD is about 6%).But how we calculate the loss of electronic circuits? Of course, the electronic loss of OLED is larger than tft_LCD,for AM-OLED is current control display device,but the TFT-LCD is voltage control display device.Aside from the fact that I've stated this in post 459, it must also be said that there is a lot more going on than just conversion and light extraction. The overall efficiency of the display depends on a multiple of loss mechanisms (I'll post on this later). Also, if I'm not mistaken 45% extraction efficiency is not normal for OLEDs. This was achieved through a special TFT design if I recall (Isochroma can confirm).

xrox

03-26-08, 11:09 PM

This data is a few years old but you can see that very little energy is converted into light output. I would assume the numbers to be better at present time but the trend will be similar.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd126/xrox/OLEDpower.jpg

Isochroma

03-26-08, 11:39 PM

That table is just abysmal and depressing too. I'm hoping that the percents are for each loss, not total energy remaining at each step.

yanxuanjun

03-27-08, 11:07 PM

I'm sorry about the clerical error on light extraction efficiency,if include all factors ,the light extraction efficiency is only about 20%. All of this is based on the assumption that the color filter is not used, or else another 1/3 should be added.
Maybe I misunderstand your post above,if the percents are the total energy remaining after each step? Does the Drive TFT photo mismatch mearn the loss due to inbalance injectinon of n-type and p-type carriers?

Artwood

03-28-08, 01:09 AM

When will OLED break the 70-inch barrier?

borf

03-28-08, 01:16 AM

When will OLED break the 70-inch barrier?

Any day now.

Riot Nrrrd™

03-29-08, 04:21 AM

Sorry about that, I guess I cant link directly to the pictures. Here is the article...if anybody speaks Japanese, I'd love to hear a translation of the text, but the pictures showing the comparative power draw speaks for itself.

http://plusd.itmedia.co.jp/lifestyle/articles/0710/24/news089_2.html

Go to this URL:

http://www.excite.co.jp/world/english/web/

Enter your itmedia URL in the box.

Underneath the URL box, there are two radio buttons. Choose the right one, not the (default) left one. Next to the radio button is a pull-down menu; choose the bottommost entry. Then click on the button in the orange border.

You'll get this back:

On the other hand, Seiko Epson had exhibited the organic LED display of eight inches that had been announced on October 15 (article related to →).

The spec is 100,000 by 800×480 pixels compared with 200 candelas and the contrasts: 1 or more.

50,000 hours or more (Until brightness is reduced by half) have been achieved by developing the improvement of the luminescence material and the original element structure.

The advantage of excelling in black reproducibility was made the best use of, and the demonstration image that the black of bezel integrates with backing of the image was thrown.

The background and bezel are integrated by using "Ultimateness and black".

It finished it up in the display for a fashionable shop.
<photophoto>

Sample (left) that television and portable DVD player, etc. seem to be able to use and vehicle prototype

Eight inches both of the screen size though the example of applying three kinds of had been exhibited in this company.

It is said that this is because the vehicle was made assumption, and the development production line for small-scale mass production has already operated.

The mass production shipment is "Will examine it in two years. "

CHI MEI OPTOELECTRONICS（CMO)

The person of dissatisfying it in the size in Samsung and Epson wants you to peep into Taiwanese CHI MEI OPTOELECTRONICS (CMO) booth.

The AMOLED television of 25-inch size has been exhibited, though they are 1366×768 pixels.
<photophoto>

25-inch organic EL panel of CMO.

Low power consumption is a big feature.

The spec is 10,000 compared with the contrast: 1 and brightness is 350 candelas.

Practical use is being examined around the television usage as understood from the use of the movie to the demonstration image.

In this company, it is said that it will aim for mass production in about 2010 on the assumption of the size of 25 inches or more.

The holding period of "FPD International 2007" until Friday, the 26th (10:00-17:00).

The admission fee is 2000 yen.

avdesign

03-30-08, 04:48 AM

i have a question i like oled tech but if we have rbg leds already as a backlight source for lcds then why not just shirink said leds small enough for displays because i am concerned about the organic part of oled instead display manufactures should use non-organic led tech which is better in the long run

yanxuanjun

04-01-08, 02:07 AM

I heard someone said, many europe Companies have given up their plan to develop OLED for display device,but focus on white OLED light(OLLA project),such as Philips, H.C. Starck and Novaled. Is that true?

The Deuce

04-01-08, 05:18 PM

Man, those efficiency numbers are... disappointing to say the least. Seems to me that mainstream OLED production is farther off than a lot of us were hoping. Doesn't look to me like there's any obvious "big new thing" on the horizon as far as TV technology goes. As much as I enjoy Auditor55's misery, I think that SED still has an window of opportunity, if Canon could get their act together (although that seems about as likely as affordable 50" OLEDs in the next 5 years).

Zoo

04-01-08, 09:27 PM

I'm hopeful for the future of OLED. I suspect it won't be my next set though. In another 3-5 years when I want to replace my 50" RPTV (720p) it will probably be with a 52"-55" LCD (due to the amount of gaming and ambient lighting in my viewing room). I suspect OLED will not be ready at 55" or so sizes in a few years.

yanxuanjun

04-10-08, 09:28 PM

why has everyone not anticipated in this forum for more than a week? Is there other forum we could talk on ?

Isochroma

04-10-08, 09:44 PM

The news has been quiet lately. I check it everyday and will post anything I find.

moreHD

04-11-08, 06:43 PM

Does SHARP have plans to release OLED tv's? This company is kind of futuristic, in my opinion. Could they quickly convert production lines for OLEDs?

Which manufacturer ,you think will be selling 32" OLED tv's for xmas this year?

navychop

04-11-08, 06:55 PM

No, no, and none

moreHD

04-14-08, 09:57 AM

OK, In the news today.
2008 will be a break-out year for OLED with SAMSUNG, LG and SONY producing 17 million displays. Can't they make a tv set from now till december?

Carled

04-14-08, 03:08 PM

OK, In the news today.
2008 will be a break-out year for OLED with SAMSUNG, LG and SONY producing 17 million displays. Can't they make a tv set from now till december?
Those displays are going in to cellphones and PDAs. They can't even mass produce OLEDs large enough to use in laptops yet, let alone TVs.

jgreen171

04-14-08, 06:28 PM

You are absolutely correct, but I would like to add that the cellphones and PDAs that receive the AMOLED displays will look pretty damn good!!! As a geek who walks around with PDAs, cell phone, an mp3 player, etc, it will be nice to have a display that is superior in energy efficiency and appearance to the liquid crap displays being manufactured now. I give props to Samsung SDI, LG Display, and Chi Mei for ushering in a new world of displays. In 2 years they will be manufacturing laptop-sized OLEDs, and in 4 years there will be nice sized OLED televisions.

Isochroma

04-14-08, 06:29 PM

That's the spirit!

jgreen171

04-14-08, 06:31 PM

VarmintCong

04-15-08, 03:48 PM

"Could they quickly convert production lines for OLEDs?"

Considering that AMOLED is a cutting edge high tech type of display, and the manufacturing process is fraught with problems of cost and yield rates, Im going to guess that no, they cannot quickly convert anything to make AMOLED screens.

"Which manufacturer ,you think will be selling 32" OLED tv's for xmas this year?"

I don't think the holdup for OLED is manufacturing - since they can use amorphous silicon processing, much like LCDs. I think the holdup is lifetime - no one wants to sell a TV that die in a few years, and become discolored sooner than that. And trying to reproduce a Blu-Ray movie in 40 inches probably needs a ton of current, especially if they're gonna crank up the brightness to compete with LCD. There goes your efficiency advantage.

I think we might see SED big-screen TVs before OLED. Seriously.

Carled

04-15-08, 04:33 PM

I don't think the holdup for OLED is manufacturing - since they can use amorphous silicon processing, much like LCDs. I think the holdup is lifetime - no one wants to sell a TV that die in a few years, and become discolored sooner than that. And trying to reproduce a Blu-Ray movie in 40 inches probably needs a ton of current, especially if they're gonna crank up the brightness to compete with LCD. There goes your efficiency advantage.
Yeah, light output is the enemy of OLED. The more you get out of them the more the organic polymers start to break down. Not many people would buy a large, nice looking, thin, energy efficient OLED display if it could only put out 30cdm2 of brightness.

I think we might see SED big-screen TVs before OLED. Seriously.
Unfortunately for SED, plasma and LCD are only a year or three from matching it in picture quality. If they don't sort out the legal wrangling soon the boat is going to leave without them.

VarmintCong

04-15-08, 05:17 PM

Unfortunately for SED, plasma and LCD are only a year or three from matching it in picture quality. If they don't sort out the legal wrangling soon the boat is going to leave without them.

Yeah, when LCD gets reliable LED backlighting, and plasma gets the new low-energy panels in 2009, it's gonna make SED and OLED kind of pointless. Any new panel tech will need to unzip your fly for you in order to get noticed.

At least Laser is hitting the market this year - they'll have a chance, since LED LCDs will still be expensive.

navychop

04-15-08, 06:37 PM

New horror movie, out next year: "The attack of the SED, the display fantasy that will not die!"

borf

04-15-08, 06:56 PM

Well I thought SED was dead too but Canon has always insisted that they continue to work on it, litagation be damned.

SED TV (http://www.oled-display.info/sed-tv/news-and-infos)

Carled

04-15-08, 07:57 PM

Yeah, when LCD gets reliable LED backlighting, and plasma gets the new low-energy panels in 2009, it's gonna make SED and OLED kind of pointless. Any new panel tech will need to unzip your fly for you in order to get noticed.
OLED is different in that it has the potential to become very cheap (it's just different kinds of hydrocarbons wedged between electrodes, far simpler than trying to contain a high voltage phasma in a vacuum or trying to get a extremely flat and consistant layer of liquid crystals), there's just a lot more engineering required before they get there. SED is just another phosphor based tech like CRTs and plasmas that's selling point was superior picture quality.

At least Laser is hitting the market this year - they'll have a chance, since LED LCDs will still be expensive.
Laser is more interesting in front projection applications given that rear projection is, for better or worse, a dying catagory. They have awesome colour gamuts, but that's basically wasted when you're displaying material mastered for bt.709. A much better use would be for digital cinema applications which use the XYZ colour space; 50% more colours than 35mm film.

jgreen171

04-16-08, 10:54 PM

Yeah, when LCD gets reliable LED backlighting, and plasma gets the new low-energy panels in 2009, it's gonna make SED and OLED kind of pointless. Any new panel tech will need to unzip your fly for you in order to get noticed.

At least Laser is hitting the market this year - they'll have a chance, since LED LCDs will still be expensive.

In my non-expert opinion, people are being short-sighted when they say that the latest model of plasma or the newest innovation in LCD or the current research in SED is going to somehow make OLED irrelevant. It wont. People should keep in mind the huge laundry list of theoretical advantages OLED possesses, advantages that are being brought out of theory and into practice as we speak:

1) Superior image quality - this is perhaps the MOST likely advantage to disappear, but that is ultimately irrelevant, because of...
2) Price - Right now OLED is very expensive. However AMOLEDs, especially if produced roll 2 roll or solution processed, are capable of being dramatically cheaper than LCD or plasma because their architecture is so much simpler. Structurally they are much more efficient devices.
3) Energy efficiency - have you seen how freaking expensive oil is lately? Energy efficiency is getting increasily important. AMOLED televisions using PHOLEDs will be MUCH MUCH more efficient than plasmas or LCDs. But where OLEDs will really shine is in mobile devices and laptops where battery lifetimes are essential and displays are the biggest power hogs.
4) Cool tricks: AMOLEDs potentially can be transparent, or flexible, and thin as heck. Dont underestimate the new applications and novel uses for displays that are flexible, thin or transparent. They are limitless.

xrox

04-16-08, 11:19 PM

In my non-expert opinion, people are being short-sighted when they say that the latest model of plasma or the newest innovation in LCD or the current research in SED is going to somehow make OLED irrelevant. It wont. People should keep in mind the huge laundry list of theoretical advantages OLED possesses, advantages that are being brought out of theory and into practice as we speak:

1) Superior image quality - this is perhaps the MOST likely advantage to disappear, but that is ultimately irrelevant, because of...
2) Price - Right now OLED is very expensive. However AMOLEDs, especially if produced roll 2 roll or solution processed, are capable of being dramatically cheaper than LCD or plasma because their architecture is so much simpler. Structurally they are much more efficient devices.
3) Energy efficiency - have you seen how freaking expensive oil is lately? Energy efficiency is getting increasily important. AMOLED televisions using PHOLEDs will be MUCH MUCH more efficient than plasmas or LCDs. But where OLEDs will really shine is in mobile devices and laptops where battery lifetimes are essential and displays are the biggest power hogs.
4) Cool tricks: AMOLEDs potentially can be transparent, or flexible, and thin as heck. Dont underestimate the new applications and novel uses for displays that are flexible, thin or transparent. They are limitless.My company worked on OLED research for many years. From the beginning the laundry list of OLED benefits was formidably large. But as the years passed I've seen that list dwindle as LCD and Plasma have greatly improved while OLED flounders around in the research stage. In the end, TTM (time to market) is OLEDs worst enemy. No one predicted that LCD and Plasma could do what they have performance wise, and cost wise.

Oh and BTW, energy efficiency is one of the greatest "problems" with large area OLEDs, even though it was always touted as a benefit. And come to think of it, every one of your benefits is suspect when you also consider LCD,PDP research in the mix.

IMO LED-HDR-LCD, 10-lumen PDP (ECC), and OLEDs will be competeing techs in the future. In other words, OLEDs will not be a clear winner.

Carled

04-17-08, 02:48 AM

IMO LED-HDR-LCD, 10-lumen PDP (ECC), and OLEDs will be competeing techs in the future. In other words, OLEDs will not be a clear winner.
In the medium term, definately. In the long term, plasmas and LCDs have too many parts and too much engineering complexity. That's not to say OLED will be the one which delivers the deathblow, it could be another as yet non existant technology, but plasma and LCD will follow CRT and rear projection eventually.

slacker711

04-17-08, 09:09 AM

This is 1/10th the thickness of the XEL1....about the thickness of 3 pieces of paper.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/04/16/sonys-3-5-inch-oled-is-just-0-0079-inches-thin/

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2008/04/sony-0.3-mm-11-inch-oled.jpg

VarmintCong

04-17-08, 01:29 PM

In my non-expert opinion, people are being short-sighted when they say that the latest model of plasma or the newest innovation in LCD or the current research in SED is going to somehow make OLED irrelevant. It wont. People should keep in mind the huge laundry list of theoretical advantages OLED possesses, advantages that are being brought out of theory and into practice as we speak:

1) Superior image quality - this is perhaps the MOST likely advantage to disappear, but that is ultimately irrelevant, because of...
2) Price - Right now OLED is very expensive. However AMOLEDs, especially if produced roll 2 roll or solution processed, are capable of being dramatically cheaper than LCD or plasma because their architecture is so much simpler. Structurally they are much more efficient devices.
3) Energy efficiency - have you seen how freaking expensive oil is lately? Energy efficiency is getting increasily important. AMOLED televisions using PHOLEDs will be MUCH MUCH more efficient than plasmas or LCDs. But where OLEDs will really shine is in mobile devices and laptops where battery lifetimes are essential and displays are the biggest power hogs.
4) Cool tricks: AMOLEDs potentially can be transparent, or flexible, and thin as heck. Dont underestimate the new applications and novel uses for displays that are flexible, thin or transparent. They are limitless.

I work in semiconductor manufacturing. The #1 thing to remember is that everything is a trade-off. You can get great image quality, ultra-thin, and low-energy from OLED. But you cannot get all 3 at once. Maybe not even 2 at once.

This is why we're still looking at 11" OLED TVs.