see this article from gizmodo.com -
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/tivo-on-comcast-how-it-works-228822.php


the TiVo software will be a software push to current motorola units (ie. the 6412) and not a new box.

the TiVo software includes a new remote mailed from Comcast HQ

still no firm release date or price
Gee, such great journalism by them. :rolleyes:

This statement is just plain untrue:

The only difference between this and standard TiVo remotes is the On Demand button.

see this article from gizmodo.com -
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/tivo-on-comcast-how-it-works-228822.php

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b35/rodneyremington/Comcast-Central.jpg
Summary--

the TiVo software will be a software push to current motorola units (ie. the 6412) and not a new box.

the TiVo software includes a new remote mailed from Comcast HQ

still no firm release date or price

It looks ready to go...at the very least to customer beta. I'll gladly be a guinea pig for Comcast.

see this article from gizmodo.com -
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/tivo-on-comcast-how-it-works-228822.php

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b35/rodneyremington/Comcast-Central.jpg
Summary--

the TiVo software will be a software push to current motorola units (ie. the 6412) and not a new box.

the TiVo software includes a new remote mailed from Comcast HQ

still no firm release date or price
Just what I want. Ads in the menus!!!

Just what I want. Ads in the menus!!!We get those on "regular" Tivo now; more often than not, they are quite amusing or informative.

Putting aside the conversation about whether or not Moto's software is any good, do we expect that the Tivo implementation will have fewer performance issues?

I'm not talking about usability or user-friendliness, but rather the issues around remote commands getting queued up, sometimes never to be seen again, other times executing in rapid succession after a wait of 1-5 minutes?

Just what I want. Ads in the menus!!!

Well, if you want TiVo features, you'll have to learn to love 'em. Those ads help keep TiVo afloat. No ads, No TiVo.

Putting aside the conversation about whether or not Moto's software is any good, do we expect that the Tivo implementation will have fewer performance issues?

I'm not talking about usability or user-friendliness, but rather the issues around remote commands getting queued up, sometimes never to be seen again, other times executing in rapid succession after a wait of 1-5 minutes?

True - good software won't help a bad piece of hardware run better. Fortunately, it doesn't have to be BOUGHT, and if I hate it, come mid-2007, I WILL buy a second S3 TiVo :)

I'm not talking about usability or user-friendliness, but rather the issues around remote commands getting queued up, sometimes never to be seen again, other times executing in rapid succession after a wait of 1-5 minutes?

If the problem is the Microsoft OS, then yes, moving to the TiVo OS should help as my Tivo S2 never manifested the delayed command queuing issue my 6412 constantly does.

If the problem is the Motorola GPU (too slow), then it might not.

Putting aside the conversation about whether or not Moto's software is any good, do we expect that the Tivo implementation will have fewer performance issues?

I'm not talking about usability or user-friendliness, but rather the issues around remote commands getting queued up, sometimes never to be seen again, other times executing in rapid succession after a wait of 1-5 minutes?


I wouldn't bet on it. I had a different opinion previously, but I just read a post on the TWC Navigator thread HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9499872&&#post9499872) which describes the exact same problem on a completely different bundle of software (OCAP, BTW), on the same Moto platform. IR commands being "buffered" for a while, then played out all at once. Same old, same old.

So, two different software packages, same problem. So, the probably is likely a hardware one (which may or may not be able to be masked by software), or it's a software one in a low-level piece of software (either hardware support layer or in the underlying operating system) .

Moving to a newly built home here in a couple days and will need to make a decision between staying with DirecTV and my HR10-250's or switching to Comcast. From those of you have tried both, what do you recommend?

If the Tivo application was available through Comcast now, it'd be a no-brainer for me.

One other quick question: what's the lowest tier of programming that one needs to get HDTV through comcast?

Thanks!

If the Tivo application was available through Comcast now, it'd be a no-brainer for me.

I think you just answered your own question. Set up your D* boxes and get by until the Tivo software becomes available for download...hopefully it is much sooner than later. Hopefully the new home was wired properly so D* is still a dual-tuner option for the time being.

But if staying with D* ties you into a fresh contract, and you currently have an out (because of the move), I'd ditch in a heartbeat, irrespective :)

HD Lite is ugly, and it will take at least as long, if not longer, before D*'s HD improves, as it will be before the Comcast units with TiVo software get deployed. Or you could (get cable, or stay OTA, and) buy an S3 ... TODAY!

But in either case (Comcast DVR now, then TiVo OS in a few months, or S3 now - at least you will enjoy better HD in your new home :)

Cheapest tier with HD *should* (with minor regional variations) be Basic Cable - the HD/Digital equivalents should be transmitted in the clear and tunable with any ATSC tuner (including an S3 TiVo). Any premiums you add will add the corresponding HD channels, and Comcast usually has a $5-extra mixed HD channel tier that will likely comprise some combination of - ESPNHD, TNTHD, Discovery, National Geo, inHD/MoJo, Food, HomeGarden, etc etc.

Good points. Using the "mover's connection" with DirecTV locks me into another year contract. I also didn't realize that you can subscribe to only basic analog cable and pick up the HD feed without subscribing to a "digital" package. I guess the only downside to that would be non-HD channels that look really, really bad due to being analog.

Good points. Using the "mover's connection" with DirecTV locks me into another year contract. I also didn't realize that you can subscribe to only basic analog cable and pick up the HD feed without subscribing to a "digital" package. I guess the only downside to that would be non-HD channels that look really, really bad due to being analog.

All channels are broadcast digitally in most Comcast systems (provided you have a TV with a QAM tuner, or a STB) The "basic" cable package comes with a box by default now also (atleast in my area) so a HD box would be $5 more a month..either way its a pretty good deal.

I think the Series 3 has a setting where you can tell the box to output the native resolution of the recorded programming (whatever it happens to be). My 3416 with the current software doesn't have that (you have to output every HD show in either 720p or 1080i). I wonder if the TiVo software on the Moto box will have that option.

I think the Series 3 has a setting where you can tell the box to output the native resolution of the recorded programming (whatever it happens to be). My 3416 with the current software doesn't have that (you have to output every HD show in either 720p or 1080i). I wonder if the TiVo software on the Moto box will have that option.

Yeah, the S3 allows you to pass the native resolution of the program.

The fixed resolution may be a hardware limitation specific to the box, since that's where the video scaling is done.

Interestingly enough is that my PRO1140 produces a FAR better picture on the SD analog channels if the box is set to 720p. If I use the 480i override on the Mot box (presumably letting the plasma handle the deinterlacing/upscaling) the picture is very soft and the colors bleed. Yet, 480i content from a DVD player looks great. Direct antenna connection to the plasma looks about the same as it does with the box set for 720p.

I surmise that the Mot box is doing something really fugly to SD content - perhaps it deinterlaces and upscales everything, then down converts to 480i if the override is set. Whatever the cause, it's just another -3 points for this STB. And the new Tivo code won't likely help in this area.

-Dave
p.s. I'm really down on this STB box right now - it locked up again last night twice for a minute each. Makes channel surfing risky! ;(

Yeah, the S3 allows you to pass the native resolution of the program.

The fixed resolution may be a hardware limitation specific to the box, since that's where the video scaling is done.

The box has no problem switching between 720p and 480i when I change channels from ESPNHD to an ESPN-SD. It should similarly be able to switch between 720p and 1080i when I change channels from ESPNHD to CBS-HD. This looks to me to be a software issue.

What I really want, though, is for the box to send 720p stuff at 720p, 480i stuff at 720p, and 1080i stuff at 1080i. For some reason, with my TV, SD stuff looks better when the box upconverts it, and 1080i stuff looks better when the TV downconverts it.

I wouldn't bet on it. I had a different opinion previously, but I just read a post on the TWC Navigator thread HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9499872&&#post9499872) which describes the exact same problem on a completely different bundle of software (OCAP, BTW), on the same Moto platform. IR commands being "buffered" for a while, then played out all at once. Same old, same old.

So, two different software packages, same problem. So, the probably is likely a hardware one (which may or may not be able to be masked by software), or it's a software one in a low-level piece of software (either hardware support layer or in the underlying operating system) .

Paul, very interesting. I wonder if there aren't perhaps DVR to DVR variances with this (although I have more than 1), as I just can't imagine everyone living with this all of the time without getting aggravated. As it happens, I'm getting 2 new HDMI DVRs next week (replacing existing non-HDMI) and I'll see; perhaps the problem won't be as bad :) Hope springs eternal :)

Paul, very interesting. I wonder if there aren't perhaps DVR to DVR variances with this (although I have more than 1), as I just can't imagine everyone living with this all of the time without getting aggravated. As it happens, I'm getting 2 new HDMI DVRs next week (replacing existing non-HDMI) and I'll see; perhaps the problem won't be as bad :) Hope springs eternal :)


If those two HDMI DVRs are Series3's, I can guarantee you won't have the problem. :)

If those two HDMI DVRs are Series3's, I can guarantee you won't have the problem. :)
Paul, I fell $1598 and $398/year short of replacing the DVRs with Series 3's... not to mention my 3rd DVR. If I were single, or married without (demanding) children, I'd buy a Series 3 and never look back. That's basically the situation I was in when I got my two ReplayTVs. Right now, anything other than leasing won't get past my wife ;)

Paul, I fell $1598 and $398/year short of replacing the DVRs with Series 3's... not to mention my 3rd DVR. If I were single, or married without (demanding) children, I'd buy a Series 3 and never look back. That's basically the situation I was in when I got my two ReplayTVs. Right now, anything other than leasing won't get past my wife ;)

Yeah, I had to get past the wife and demanding children as well. You just gotta look around for better prices than MSRP. You can score the S3 for around $630, and prepay for 3 years of service for $299 ($8.30/month).

Besides, it was well worth the piece of mind not having to worry if my programs were going to record on a daily basis. After having sat down on the couch with the wife only to find Gilmore Girls hadn't recorded (yet again), the S3 was an easy sell to the wife. :)

True - good software won't help a bad piece of hardware run better. Fortunately, it doesn't have to be BOUGHT, and if I hate it, come mid-2007, I WILL buy a second S3 TiVo :)

Agreed.

I'm not anti-Tivo - I have a lifetime S2 sitting in my garage right now. But I like watching HD and we get a lot of it on Comcast here in Seattle. When I first jumped on the HD bandwagon, the S3 wasn't out, so it was either DirecTV or Comcast. I live in a north facing apartment, so my mind was made up for me. Then the S3 comes out, but soon after the news that the Tivo SW would be ported to Comcast hardware. So I'm waiting and will see how well it works.

If I'm not satisfied, I'll also get an S3, but until then I can save the $600. Or rather put that money towards the new computer hardware I just bought...

BTW - the two things that annoy me the most about the Comcast DVR are the aforementioned input delay (which may or may not improve) and the horrible guide data it gets. Any chance that Tivo on Comcast will pick up Tivo's excellent guide data or will they be stuck with Comcast's?

OrkinMan - don't forget that for just $199 (yeah, yeah - I've gulped some KoolAid) you can transfer your Lifetime from your currently-unused S2 unit to an S3, only until (is it Jan end or Feb end?).

If you plan NOT to buy an S3 before that deadline, at least ebay the S2 while it's Lifetime has an over-inflated value there! Put THAT money aside towards subscription costs for the S3 you WILL inevitably needwant ;)

Moving to a newly built home here in a couple days and will need to make a decision between staying with DirecTV and my HR10-250's or switching to Comcast. From those of you have tried both, what do you recommend?

If the Tivo application was available through Comcast now, it'd be a no-brainer for me.

One other quick question: what's the lowest tier of programming that one needs to get HDTV through comcast?

Thanks!

Well I've D* on my brother's 34" Sony tube, and it is unimpressive. Looks a tad better than a DVD. If they fix their DVR and their sats go up by Fall, they may again lead in HD. Too risky now though, with their long contracts.

We have MSFT TV in WA State on top of the Moto 34xx. A Moto will Always be a Moto....can you say buggy. My DVR has ghost images, and I've had one go completely dead (after 3 weeks) and twice lost everything on 2 different boxes.
I had the big dish digital/analog Moto 4DTV 920 receiver for seven years. Moto receivers always laaaag because they are short on memory.

Most of the Comcast bugs are Not in the UI, as we see many of the same bugs with the MSFT platform here in WA State.

I, for one, am jumping from Comcast Plat. to a DISH ViP622 :D with OTA & a ViP211 HD box. DISH AEP will save me about $20-25 a month, including sales taxes. DISH's 622 is currently the best in class DVR. No contract, so if I would have major problems, I'll be back to Comcast by Fall.

The Tivo S3 is very expensive plus has the extra 'Tivo' fee. I will have no fees if you buy a 622 w/AEP [Platinum], or its $6/mo. on a lease.

I will keep my Comcast cable modem and just get $13.50 lifeline for QAM FOX-HD [hard to pick up around Seattle], and analog.

We have MSFT TV in WA State on top of the Moto 34xx. A Moto will Always be a Moto....can you say buggy.I'm amazed that combination hasn't blown up and burned your house down. I'm in no way defending the Motorola hardware, but putting the incredibly buggy MSTV on top of that is just a disaster waiting to happen. Good thing Comcast limited that debacle of a combination to Washington State as a consolation gift to Gates.

I'm even more amazed that davegtestr elected to go from the fyring pan (D*) into the fire (Echo). And used '622' with the phrase 'best in class' without the 'not' qualifier in the same sentence :p

what the heck is d*? i see folks use that but i've never seen what it stands for.

tnx
jim

what the heck is d*? i see folks use that but i've never seen what it stands for.
tnx
jim
D* = DirecTV
E* = Dish (Echostar)
I'm not sure if people really want to save the trouble of typing of few more letters, or whether it helps one feel like part of a club.

I will keep my Comcast cable modem and just get $13.50 lifeline for QAM FOX-HD [hard to pick up around Seattle], and analog.
Not sure what a lifeline is. Are you referring to the locals-only/basic cable package? If so, I'm pretty sure that if you have a QAM tuner, you can get the digital/hd locals without buying any cable package. If you have the cable-modem or cable-phone, the locals will be on your cable line. Can anybody in-the-know confirm?

D* = DirecTV
E* = Dish (Echostar)
I'm not sure if people really want to save the trouble of typing of few more letters, or whether it helps one feel like part of a club.

Probably the latter :p

I also sometimes type Micro$oft & A$$le

Not sure what a lifeline is. Are you referring to the locals-only/basic cable package? If so, I'm pretty sure that if you have a QAM tuner, you can get the digital/hd locals without buying any cable package. If you have the cable-modem or cable-phone, the locals will be on your cable line. Can anybody in-the-know confirm?
Depends on the cable system and location.

Not sure what a lifeline is. Are you referring to the locals-only/basic cable package? If so, I'm pretty sure that if you have a QAM tuner, you can get the digital/hd locals without buying any cable package. If you have the cable-modem or cable-phone, the locals will be on your cable line. Can anybody in-the-know confirm?

Lifeline cable, [Comcast Limited Cable Service) which is bare bones analog 2- maybe 29 local/public access/CSPAN/shopping channels. Yes, a QAM tuner is built in to my Mitsu. The very first thing I did with HD was to plug in the cable to the digital tuner to view the local networks (that your cable carries). Some cable systems forget to encrypt a few channels as well, if you're lucky. Plus you can see what the 'hood is watching on VOD as well.

[QUOTE=bicker1]I'm going to wait a while, after July, before I even consider making any changes that could result in me losing my DCT3416. (I may even pay the extra money for a spare, obtained in June, just in case :))[QUOTE]

OOhh, the joy of a 3416??? :eek: Evidently you've had a much better one.
As far as OCAP, I guess this then means Seattle is out of luck for Tivo in the immediate future.
Glad I am jumping to DISH, my 3412 and then 3416 is junk, and my 2 622's (1 owned) are going to be installed Wednesday. No DVR upfront charge w/DISH if you wait till the first, then it's $6/mo. to lease.
Whew, 2 years, 3 months with Comcast DVR's.
I can get my locals, if needed, on QAM.
Hello NatlGeo-HD, HDNet, Monsters, Rave, HDNews....all of Voom and HDNet Movies. My 3416 is $12/mo. on top of Plat. + 1 SD box, =$129/mo., plus Taxes...=$141. Tivo will be $5-10 more...good grief...
I'd thought I'd wait for the Tivo, but with bad DVR's and the rate increases, I'm gone. I am a movie fan and need my HD movie channels so bye Comcast, at least for cable. So if I don't like the DISH movie channels, I can just get their HD pack or Bronz and return my leased boxes.

[QUOTE=bicker1]I'm going to wait a while, after July, before I even consider making any changes that could result in me losing my DCT3416. (I may even pay the extra money for a spare, obtained in June, just in case :))[QUOTE]

OOhh, the joy of a 3416??? :eek: Evidently you've had a much better one.
As far as OCAP, I guess this then means Seattle is out of luck for Tivo in the immediate future.
Glad I am jumping to DISH, my 3412 and then 3416 is junk, and my 2 622's (1 owned) are going to be installed Wednesday. No DVR upfront charge w/DISH if you wait till the first, then it's $6/mo. to lease.
Whew, 2 years, 3 months with Comcast DVR's.
I can get my locals, if needed, on QAM.
Hello NatlGeo-HD, HDNet, Monsters, Rave, HDNews....all of Voom and HDNet Movies. My 3416 is $12/mo. on top of Plat. + 1 SD box, =$129/mo., plus Taxes...=$141. Tivo will be $5-10 more...good grief...
I'd thought I'd wait for the Tivo, but with bad DVR's and the rate increases, I'm gone. I am a movie fan and need my HD movie channels so bye Comcast, at least for cable. So if I don't like the DISH movie channels, I can just get their HD pack or Bronz and return my leased boxes.


I hope picture quality isn't a big thing for you. I ditched dish for comcast last year and the pic quality was bigtime better with comcast. I thought that voom was cool for like one day and then never even watched it. It is second rate material as far as I am concerned. If you don't mind lower pic quality and rain outs then I guess your fine.

OOhh, the joy of a 3416??? :eek: Evidently you've had a much better one. I've had a 6412, a 3412 and a 3416. The 3416 is definitely the best of the bunch, but all three were fine.

Glad I am jumping to DISHGood luck with that. Dish, around here, sucks big-time: PQ is the pits compared to Comcast.

Grrrr..I'm sick of waiting. :mad:

Grrrr..I'm sick of waiting. :mad:

it will be worth it.

the first version of the TiVo software had major problems. the new updated version is more Tivo like and has little to no current reported problems.

that's why the delay.

More QA on this then there was on the original and current version of IGUIDE!

Is "spring" Feb, Mar, or more like May or June?

it will be worth it.

the first version of the TiVo software had major problems. the new updated version is more Tivo like and has little to no current reported problems.

that's why the delay.

More QA on this then there was on the original and current version of IGUIDE!

Any word on whether or not any guide data will be stored on the hard drive?

Is "spring" Feb, Mar, or more like May or June?Being a Pantheist, I can answer at least part of this. Spring begins in late March, so you can forget about February. :)

I was hoping Comcast might have some optimistic concept of what constitutes spring...you know, like their concept of a DVR?

Any word on whether or not any guide data will be stored on the hard drive?

last I hear it is still not stored on the HDD

I was hoping Comcast might have some optimistic concept of what constitutes spring...you know, like their concept of a DVR?

all 3 of my DVR's DCT-3416p2 work fine.

Yeah, and my neighbor's 1963 VW Bug works fine too. The problem is, if you've driven a Passat first, the Bug just doesn't cut it for ya...but the Bug still gets the job done.

last I hear it is still not stored on the HDD

I think just having it in non-volatile memory space will solve most our problems. And I agree, the 64xx and 34xx have become much more stable over the last few firmware updates. These types of devices are going to crash -- just like your computer crashes from time to time. However with a computer, most times your up and running a few minutes later. It takes my box usually 24 hours to re-populate the entire guide info which is a bit annoying.

I've noticed that the box is definitely more stable than even just six months ago. I've also noticed that it's getting much better at keeping a good two weeks of schedule data providing three days more program listings than my TiVos are providing.

Im simple

I want a TIVO interface and appearance on a comcast box

not the comcastisized version of a TIVO software Ive seen in the screen shots

LOL, OK so I can dream


MIke

all 3 of my DVR's DCT-3416p2 work fine.

Do you have F/W v. 16.20? And are they using HDMI/DVi into a HDTV? And if so, can you reliably get a video output on the TV once you power-off then power-on the TV?

If you can, I would like to know your secret to success. Mine (DCT 3416), once upgraded to 16.20 (about 1 week ago), will, with 100% certainty, scramble the HDMI output once the TV power is turned off. The only solution (other than using Component) is to turn the DVR off then on again.

Rgds,

jwehman

I want a TIVO interface and appearance on a comcast box not the comcastisized version of a TIVO software Ive seen in the screen shots
In other words, you want a $800 up-front + $20 per month + $2 per month device, and only pay $0 up-front + $10-$16 per month for it.

LOL, OK so I can dreamHehe..

The last S3 I bought was $535 shipped from Dell. The TiVo monthly fee is $6.95 and Comcast charges an outlet fee of $9.90 but that would be charged if I had their box also. There is no charge for the cablecards. I have six cable cards total and they charge me two outlet fees with the first outlet being free.

The TiVo monthly fee is $6.95

Where/how are you only paying $6.95 for your Tivo monthly fee?? The cheapest you can get (besides the lifetime upgrade) is $8.30 and that's if you pre-pay for 3 years.

Where/how are you only paying $6.95 for your Tivo monthly fee?? The cheapest you can get (besides the lifetime upgrade) is $8.30 and that's if you pre-pay for 3 years.
$6.95 is the rate if you already own another TiVo.

$6.95 is the rate if you already own another TiVo.
That's what it was before Nov 06 when the MSD rates changed. Now all you get is a $6/mo. credit for additional TiVos. See the new rate structure here (http://www.tivo.com/5.11.asp).

And it works out to $6.95 a month which is what I'm paying each for two S3 boxes that I purchsed and activated in December. The first S3 I bought I paid the $299 up front fee for 3 years service. The other two are $6.95 each a month(with a 3 year agreement). The last S3 I bought was only $535 shipped from Dell.

S3 boxes aren't bought with a contract/deal etc, and are eligible for MSD if you own another unit.

And bicker1, you REALLY need to quite posting the inflated/worst case pricing estimates every single time :)

S3 boxes aren't bought with a contract/deal etc, and are eligible for MSD if you own another unit.

And bicker1, you REALLY need to quite posting the inflated/worst case pricing estimates every single time :)

He's just trying to point out that you do indeed pay a premium for the S3. I don't think anyone would argue that the S3 is vastly superior to the Comcast Moto box -- it's just you're going to pay more for that superiority. Taking the "best case" scenario, you pay $535 + $299 for three years of service. That's $834. It will take you about 4 1/2 years of Comcast service (assuming you're paying $15 for the box/fee) to recoup that cost. Again, that is "best case". Do you really think the S3 will last 4 1/2 years, either mechanically or in terms of what the market will be offering in the future? Maybe...but it's a risk. Personally, I'm waiting for the Comcast/Tivo offering and will make my decision then on whether or not to purchase an S3.

The S3 is also upgradeable. I've upgrade all of mine to 500GB drives and that's not big enough. I went from having unlimited HD storage in 2001 with my HiPix HD cards in the PC to the HR10-250 in 2004 with DirecTV. I added two 250GB dries to all 3 of my units and then when I got my S3 boxes 500 GB drives were around $160 each. But it's really not enough for HD storage since 95% of what I watch is HD. I'll probably replace the Comcast HD box I have for On Demand with Comcast TiVo box with On Demand just for the TiVo interface. I'd rather pay extra money to have TiVo than if I got everything free. The current DVRs are terrible for Comcast and DirecTV. If they offered them free to me for the rest of my life I wouldn't want to use them.

fender, the moment you drop your flawed logic about wanting to 'recoup the cost', you will realize that the S3 IS worth it :)

Would you not pay more to be driven around in a Maybach, instead of an *ordinary BMW 7-Series, assuming you COULD afford both? :)

* I obviously use the adjective 'ordinary' in a relative sense ;)

Actually, both sides of the Comcast Vs. S3 argument are compelling. i.e. On one hand, I have to put up with a crappy Comcast interface for FOUR whole years before I even make out better financially?? What a drag. On the other hand, there is a chance that the Comcast interface (Tivo) or boxes (new hardware) will significantly improve before that, or that the Tivo S3 or later models will come down in price.

And crossbeaux (and fender) only YOU can decide which side of that tradeoff battle (or in the middle ... wiat until the S3 is available for 399 or less etc) you want to be on. For me, 700 was the magic number, and that's what the S3 was worth to me :)

fender, the moment you drop your flawed logic about wanting to 'recoup the cost', you will realize that the S3 IS worth it :)

Would you not pay more to be driven around in a Maybach, instead of an *ordinary BMW 7-Series, assuming you COULD afford both? :)

* I obviously use the adjective 'ordinary' in a relative sense ;)

It's not "flawed logic" -- it's a fact. If someone has $834 right now to throw around then by all means...they should get an S3 if they so desire. If they'd rather pay out that $834 over the course of 4 1/2 years for an inferior product but has the same basic functionality...they should stay with the Moto box. If the S3 was released a year ago, there would be no question about me getting one. My Moto box was crashing more than once a week, usually in the middle of recordings. In other words, it didn't have the "same basic functionality". However with the latest updates, my box has been powered on and recording like a champ for the last 3 months straight. It now has the "same basic functionality" as the S3.

I'm not trying to take anything away from the S3 -- Tivo has always produced great products. It's a personal choice for me (and for many other people) to not put up $834 and see what the market has to offer over the next year or so. For the time being I can still record 2 HD channels at once...which is all I really want.

I'm sorry, but your logic is still flawed, to me. You obviously already OWN an HDTV. I have a feeling a cash outlay $834 (or less if you start out month to month, and even that S3 on a financing plan from, say, BestBuy - who is currently offering 0% PR for 99 or more until 2010) is not a REAL concern, and at this point you're merely procrastinating or waiting for a pricepoint that satisfies your own personal "Yeah the S3 is orth that much more" number.

Serisouly!

...and at this point you're merely procrastinating or waiting for a pricepoint that satisfies your own personal "Yeah the S3 is orth that much more" number.

You are absolutely, 100% correct!! I am waiting for either a) a price point in which I feel it's worth it, or b) I come to the conclusion that at no point in the near future will any other technology/experience come close to what the S3 offers. And I suspect I'm not alone in this thinking. My bank account and I learned long ago that you can't go jumping at everything that's new and "cool". Sure, I have the money to go get an S3...that doesn't mean I have to get one.

and if the history of the price of tivo's is any guide, the price of an S3 will go WAY down in the coming years.

New tivo was around 300 when they came out (more?) and now if you look you can get a series 2 dual tuner for FREE with a subscription commitment.

Lets just wait till the same happens with the s3.

and if the history of the price of tivo's is any guide, the price of an S3 will go WAY down in the coming years.

New tivo was around 300 when they came out (more?) and now if you look you can get a series 2 dual tuner for FREE with a subscription commitment.

Lets just wait till the same happens with the s3.


Where can you get a fee S2DT?




ajwees41

Isn't that only for a new subscriber? I aksed about it and was told I didn't qualify for the rebate. I wanted to get oan S2 for my girlfriend so I just got one off ebay that had the 1st year of service already paid. Ihoping to get a second one with the Lifetime service although I guess it will only be good for only two more years since she only uses analog OTA for her TV.

I'm sorry, but your logic is still flawed, to me. You obviously already OWN an HDTV. I have a feeling a cash outlay $834 (or less if you start out month to month, and even that S3 on a financing plan from, say, BestBuy - who is currently offering 0% PR for 99 or more until 2010) is not a REAL concern, and at this point you're merely procrastinating or waiting for a pricepoint that satisfies your own personal "Yeah the S3 is orth that much more" number.

Serisouly!
I think you're confusing an opinion with "flawed logic." I too feel the S3 isn't worth the cash outlay. There's nothing flawed with the logic.

I'm sorry, but your logic is still flawed, to me. Let's just say that "you don't agree". His logic is fine, to you or to anyone else, because he's saying what's of value to him. He is the only one in a position to make a value judgement on the validity of his feelings.

Awww. Should I be all touchy-feely & apologetic now?

His logic is predicated on the appearance of a vastly superior, cheaper/same price range HD recording solution between now and his 'other flawed logic (breakeven on the Moto box rental)'. Sometimes delayed gratification & the wait-and-see attitude IS flawed logic :)

And that's all I have to say about that, so I guess cheer has a point, and I concede - it's an opinion :)

Comcast! Whaaat's happening?
Yeah, I'm going to need you to go ahead and upload that Tivo software, mmm kay?
http://myspace-567.vo.llnwd.net/00191/76/52/191822567_m.jpg
If you could go ahead and do that, that'd be grreeeeaaaaatttttt.

Awww. Should I be all touchy-feely & apologetic now?No, just be mature, that's all. :)

Do you have F/W v. 16.20? And are they using HDMI/DVi into a HDTV? And if so, can you reliably get a video output on the TV once you power-off then power-on the TV?

If you can, I would like to know your secret to success. Mine (DCT 3416), once upgraded to 16.20 (about 1 week ago), will, with 100% certainty, scramble the HDMI output once the TV power is turned off. The only solution (other than using Component) is to turn the DVR off then on again.

I'm running 16.20 on my 6412 over HDMI (DVI -> HDMI) to my projector, and turn my DVR off all the time. (The head seek noise bugs me when I'm not watching TV.) I only once had a problem with the 6412 going into reduced video output, and that was when a comcast rep was swapping out the unit. (I believe the DVI cable fell off the back at some point.) Outside of that one time, it's never had that problem.

But take this all with a grain of salt; I never had any problems (outside of the 'black screen' problem) turning the DVR on and off with the old (v. 12?) firmware, either.

I think the difference is the device on the other end. I'm using a projector (Benq PE7700, in case anyone cares), and it never really turns off but just goes into sleep/standby. (Though I have completely depowered the projector via a hard switch, repowered it, and been immediately back to the races.)

And for the record, I have no idea why people think firmware 16 is better. Although the command input pauses are of shorter duration, they're far more frequent in my experience. (i.e. instead of a contiguous five minute wait which I actually timed before, it's three one minute waits.)

Funny thing is that I have a spare broken 6412 from the last hardware swap. Comcast guy forgot to take it with him. I think I need to find a clever way of destroying it, and put it up on youtube. :)

For the time being I can still record 2 HD channels at once...which is all I really want. Yes but a big issue for many is you can't keep much stored on the DVR at once because you quickly run out of space, so you have to watch as you go or risk losing recordings. It was ridiculous for me that if I wanted to record 3 NFL games on Sunday padded by 1 hour each there just wasn't enough room to do that even with the DVR empty of other recordings. Upgrading to the DCT6416 helped a little but still 160GB (~ 15 hours of HD recordings) is nowhere near enough hard drive space. So the major driver for me to get the S3 was for increased hard drive space. 250GB has served me well for now and it's nice to know I can easily upgrade to much higher whenever I want. Ability to additionally record OTA has turned out to be a very nice bonus as well giving me a couple of HD locals otherwise not available via cable. From what we know right now the Comcast Tivo will not have option of hard drive upgrade and it certainly won't have OTA capabilities.

Yes but a big issue for many is you can't keep much stored on the DVR at once because you quickly run out of space, so you have to watch as you go or risk losing recordings. It was ridiculous for me that if I wanted to record 3 NFL games on Sunday padded by 1 hour each there just wasn't enough room to do that even with the DVR empty of other recordings. Upgrading to the DCT6416 helped a little but still 160GB (~ 15 hours of HD recordings) is nowhere near enough hard drive space. So the major driver for me to get the S3 was for increased hard drive space. 250GB has served me well for now and it's nice to know I can easily upgrade to much higher whenever I want. Ability to additionally record OTA has turned out to be a very nice bonus as well giving me a couple of HD locals otherwise not available via cable. From what we know right now the Comcast Tivo will not have option of hard drive upgrade and it certainly won't have OTA capabilities.

I agree...the limited recording space is a drag. However I believe it's been stated that we should be able to add external storage to the Moto boxes by (hopefully) this summer (once Moto fixes a firmware bug).

Funny thing is that I have a spare broken 6412 from the last hardware swap. Comcast guy forgot to take it with him. I think I need to find a clever way of destroying it, and put it up on youtube. :)

Be careful. A few years ago, I had an old cable box from when BellSouth offered digital cable that I had, for no apparent, reason carried with me through two moves. Just for kicks, I hooked it up at my new place (this was 4 years on) to see what would happen. The answer was nothing. But later that week I got a call on my cell (number hadn't changed in four years) asking when they could send out a contractor to pick up the box. And sure enough, a guy did (though he forgot to take the power cord). Guess the box sent some signal to someone, even though their cable division was long since defunct. Creepy.

Be careful. A few years ago, I had an old cable box from when BellSouth offered digital cable that I had, for no apparent, reason carried with me through two moves. Just for kicks, I hooked it up at my new place (this was 4 years on) to see what would happen. The answer was nothing. But later that week I got a call on my cell (number hadn't changed in four years) asking when they could send out a contractor to pick up the box. And sure enough, a guy did (though he forgot to take the power cord). Guess the box sent some signal to someone, even though their cable division was long since defunct. Creepy.

http://www.futura-sciences.com/img/big-brother.jpg

and if the history of the price of tivo's is any guide, the price of an S3 will go WAY down in the coming years.

New tivo was around 300 when they came out (more?) and now if you look you can get a series 2 dual tuner for FREE with a subscription commitment.

Lets just wait till the same happens with the s3.

I paid 450 for an S1!!!!

I paid 450 for an S1!!!!
Ha, I paid $500 for a Series 1 with a 14 GB hard drive! :eek:

The S1 14 hour was 699 when released :) Lifetime service was only 199 then!

My first unit was a $400+ S2 80 hour in 2001.

Motorola's DCH3416 M-Card-enabled HD DVR (http://www.engadget.com/2007/02/02/motorolas-dch3416-m-card-enabled-hd-dvr/)

M-Card = CableCard 2??

jtm

M-Card = CableCard 2??

jtm


Multistream.


ajwees41

The S3 is also upgradeable. I've upgrade all of mine to 500GB drives and that's not big enough...I added two 250GB dries to all 3 of my units and then when I got my S3 boxes 500 GB drives were around $160 each. But it's really not enough...
Somebody watches waaaay too much TV or is waaaaay too far behind on their programs. ;)

I asked Comcast about the new line of Moto DCH Boxes:

"Thank you for contacting Comcast Cable.

We do know about the new DVR's and we are working on
getting them processed. Motorola is running months behind on all
orders. We have problems getting the last new one now.

I'm sorry I can't give you any date.


Thank you for choosing Comcast.

Sincerely,

Phyllis
Comcast Customer Care Specialist"

Any word on the comcast+tivo hd dvr?

Any word on the comcast+tivo hd dvr?

The DVR's are already available. (Moto DCT-64xxp3 & DCT-34xxp1 & p2 STB), however the Service is not.

The Service will begin to roll out in the spring time frame in some areas.

Somebody watches waaaay too much TV or is waaaaay too far behind on their programs. ;)

I'm used to having 180 GB of space to record 180 hours of SD on my TiVo. Converting to 160 GB of space storing 18 hours in HD is a difficult adjustment. To get the 180 hours I used to use with my S2 TiVo (in SD), I'd need 1.5 TB of storage for HD.

The DVR's are available, but are they the ones with the TiVo interface?

The DVR's are already available. (Moto DCT-64xxp3 & DCT-34xxp1 & p2 STB), however the Service is not.

The Service will begin to roll out in the spring time frame in some areas.
I guess I haven't been paying attention...

The TiVo service will require a 64xx phase III box? I suppose that I should find out about switching my box now so I can be ready for this when it arrives.

The DVR's are available, but are they the ones with the TiVo interface?

Read two posts above yours.

AH, ok..so the boxes that comcast will use with the tivo interface are already out, they just haven't sent the new software to run the tivo style yet.

What do their DVR boxes look like?
What kind of connections do they have on the back?
Do they have a antenna input and a cable input?

What do their DVR boxes look like?
What kind of connections do they have on the back?
Do they have a antenna input and a cable input?

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/How_to_use_a_Motorola_DVR/Identifying_your_model
see the pictures in the above link
cable input only (why would a cable company include an antenna input?)

thanks for the link...good point, didn't think about that.
Was looking forward to the Tivo Series 3 with both so I could have OTA antenna for local channels too.

Anyone know if Comcast will use Tivo Boxes at all or just the Tivo Software?

Anyone know if Comcast will use Tivo Boxes at all or just the Tivo Software?
Comcast will not provide TiVo boxes. Their agreement with TiVo is to provide the TiVo software for the Motorola boxes that they rent to customers. Comcast will charge you some fee (undetermined) to rent the box and get the TiVo software on it. As a customer, your only contact is with Comcast because both your programming and your DVR service are provided by Comcast.

If you want a TiVo box, then you need to buy one and then subscribe to the service with TiVo directly. In this scenario, your DVR service is provided by TiVo and your programming is provided by Comcast (or OTA).

Okay, Wasn't sure how the deal went between tivo and comcast.
Thanks

My biggest concern with the Moto 6412 boxes running TiVo software will be that the effort may end up akin to putting lipstick on a pig. Bad hardware cannot be 'cured' by good software, but hope floats ... which is why I'm holding on to one 6412PIII along with my Series 3 HD TiVo.

The good thing about TiVo's OCAP implementation is that it can be relatively easily dropped onto the (hopefully superior hardware from) Panasonic (or, heck, even the CiscoAtlantic) OCAP-based cable boxen in the future!

My biggest concern with the Moto 6412 boxes running TiVo software will be that the effort may end up akin to putting lipstick on a pig. Bad hardware cannot be 'cured' by good software, but hope floats ... which is why I'm holding on to one 6412PIII along with my Series 3 HD TiVo.

The good thing about TiVo's OCAP implementation is that it can be relatively easily dropped onto the (hopefully superior hardware from) Panasonic (or, heck, even the CiscoAtlantic) OCAP-based cable boxen in the future!


What makes you think it's bad hardware? I think the 6412 is fine, but the software is the reason it doesn't work well.

ajwees41.

I just wish the Series 3 could handle any companies going over to SDV!

I just wish the Series 3 could handle any companies going over to SDV!
Not so much a limitation in the S3 as it is a limitation in CableCard. (Though one could argue that that is splitting hairs.)

Alas, the S3 won't work with U-Verse or other IPTV services, either.

So...someone clear this up.

I realize that Comcast will offer Tivo software for the Moto HDDVRs, but only the newer models? Mine (don't know the version) is a 6412 w/ DVI out. Considering swapping for a HDMI out version (which Comcast has available @ my local office). Would I have to do this in order to get the Tivo software when it becomes available in my area?

Don' forget- Motorola just released a new series of HD DVRs and Comcast has put in an order.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/02/02/motorolas-dch3416-m-card-enabled-hd-dvr/

...Mine (don't know the version) is a 6412 w/ DVI out. Considering swapping for a HDMI out version (which Comcast has available @ my local office)...
FYI, you have the DCT6412 Series II, while the one with HDMI is the Series III.

I just wish the Series 3 could handle any companies going over to SDV!
Not so much a limitation in the S3 as it is a limitation in CableCard. (Though one could argue that that is splitting hairs.)

Alas, the S3 won't work with U-Verse or other IPTV services, either.
Nope - It's the other way around - It's a Tivo S3 limitation and not a cablecard issue. The existing single stream cablecards are compatible with return signals from host devices. Tivo specifically left out the hardware to create a return signal to the headend. Single stream and multistream refer to how many individual streams can be decoded at the same time. It's up to the host device to be able to tune multiple streams or be able to generate a return signal for SDV.

vegggas

Knowing TiVo, a good 'ole firmware update, or an external USB-based device (the S3 is connected to the intraweb and DOES run Linux, lest we forget) will 'fix' this SDV issue, in my infintely optimistic speculation.

In the meantime, I will continue to enjoy the most amazing HD DVR on the planet. Well, non-custom-made, and within easy reach of anyone that can afford an HDTV, at least ;)

All ye harbingers of woe and doom can continue tos truggle with the last-30-buffered-remote-keypresses-were-JUST-recognized Motorola hardware :)

What makes you think it's bad hardware? I think the 6412 is fine, but the software is the reason it doesn't work well.

ajwees41.

You're right - I don't know that. I guess the entire package is so awful, I can't decide what to blame.

Although i realize the S3 has essentially the same (family of?) CPU as the 6412 and 3412 units, so it is almost definitely the software.

And this is why I still have that one 6412 for now. That and I can't afford a second S3!

FYI, you have the DCT6412 Series II, while the one with HDMI is the Series III.

Swapped out my 6412 (series II--thanks for the info, spyder) w/ Comcast yesterday. They gave me a 6416 S III in return. Bigger HDD, HDMI out and (according to Comcast) "a bit faster".

Does "a bit faster" refer to the Moto remote-command lockups? Hasn't locked up yet, but then I've only had it for a day.

Maybe I'm nuts, but I did notice that SD/"analog" (ch 2-99) PQ seems better than with the 6412. I run the 6416 (as well as the previous 6412) via component, since my TV only has 1 HDMI input that's occupied by my DVD player.

SD/analog PQ was better in the past when I ran the outside cable directly into my set's coax input. Of course, I couldn't access ALL channels that way and none were running thru the DVR. Noticed last night that the PQ on both Comedy Central and CNN, for example, via the 6416 was much like that of the "direct connection" of the cable to the TV tuner. Not nearly the "crappy SD" PQ we come to expect on large-screen HDTVs. Even a slight improvement w/ the "analog" locals--although I never watch them anyway since I get the HD/digital simulcasts of those.

OnDemand stuff (which always varies in PQ) also seemed a bit "smoother" on some of the more highly compressed material. Not HD perfect, but a bit better than they looked coming from the 6412.

Anyone else notice this w/ a 6416?

Knowing TiVo, a good 'ole firmware update, or an external USB-based device (the S3 is connected to the intraweb and DOES run Linux, lest we forget) will 'fix' this SDV issue, in my infintely optimistic speculation.

I don't think so. An update to the CableCard technology to support SDV will be required.

Does "a bit faster" refer to the Moto remote-command lockups? My 6412 had more remote glitches than my 3412 or 3416, but nothing unmangeable.

Maybe I'm nuts, but I did notice that SD/"analog" (ch 2-99) PQ seems better than with the 6412.64xx Series 3 boxes have a better video chip than the earlier models. This same chip can be found in both the 34xx Series 1 and Series 2 boxes.

I don't think so. An update to the CableCard technology to support SDV will be required.Don't mean to butt in, but FWIW, this was posted in another thread regarding the Tivo S3 and SDV. I thought it might be applicable to this discussion:
It's a Tivo S3 limitation and not a cablecard issue. The existing single stream cablecards are compatible with return signals from host devices. Tivo specifically left out the hardware to create a return signal to the headend. Single stream and multistream refer to how many individual streams can be decoded at the same time. It's up to the host device to be able to tune multiple streams or be able to generate a return signal for SDV.

What are the odds of the ComcasTivo working with the new Amazon Unbox for Tivo service? I would say not good, but this setup sounds really sweet.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/video/tivo//ref=amb_link_4396432_1/104-8460356-1762317

Does anyone know if the Motorola Dvr's will have larger hard drives? or the ability to add on for more storage?

Does anyone know if the Motorola Dvr's will have larger hard drives? or the ability to add on for more storage?

Curently the 160GB HDD is the largest HDD Available.

STB models: DCT 3416, DCT 6416, DCH 3416, DCH 6416

External eSata HDD support is not available due to DRM issues.

Real Post!

TiVo and Comcast....if you haven't seen already

http://www.cnettv.com/9710-1_53-25635.html?tag=vid&autoplay=true#mgallery

Thanks, but this was already posted in the thread back during CES.

Okay. It's too bad it's only 160 but I guess I can learn to live with that.

Curently the 160GB HDD is the largest HDD Available.

STB models: DCT 3416, DCT 6416, DCH 3416, DCH 6416

External eSata HDD support is not available due to DRM issues.
So the DCH boxes are available for Comcast customers ???

Laters,
Mikef5

So the DCH boxes are available for Comcast customers ???

Laters,
Mikef5

Not yet. they are in production. I would not expect them to be fully available till late 2007.

Curently the 160GB HDD is the largest HDD Available.

STB models: DCT 3416, DCT 6416, DCH 3416, DCH 6416

External eSata HDD support is not available due to DRM issues.Have you heard any update on Motorola's efforts to create a firmware supporting eSATA?

Are the DCH products expected to feature working SATA before year's end?

What makes you think it's bad hardware? I think the 6412 is fine, but the software is the reason it doesn't work well.
ajwees41.

Then why haven't the issues been addressed by Comcast/Motorola if it's just a software issue. Some of the problems are severe enough that they must have put some effort into fixing them. I think it's a hardware problem, such as an underpowered CPU which can't handle the load. This could easily account for the remote lag problem.

Then why haven't the issues been addressed by Comcast/Motorola if it's just a software issue. Some of the problems are severe enough that they must have put some effort into fixing them. I think it's a hardware problem, such as an underpowered CPU which can't handle the load. This could easily account for the remote lag problem.


What problems are you seeing?

ajwees41

Then why haven't the issues been addressed by Comcast/Motorola if it's just a software issue. Some of the problems are severe enough that they must have put some effort into fixing them. I think it's a hardware problem, such as an underpowered CPU which can't handle the load. This could easily account for the remote lag problem.

Just to clear up this mis information.

It is a Software problem. It is bad code.

The CPU in the Moto DCT 64xxp3 & DCT 34xxp1 & P2 series STB is the same CPU in the TiVo S3, and several new STB from other companies. It is very power full and has yet to be pushed to it's limit's. The Remote lag is caused by inefficient code that handles the remote buffer and cpu cycles. The Remote buffer is not set as a priority level process. This code was changed in F/W 12.31, 12.35 and has been completely rewritten in all of the 15.xx, 16.xx, 17.xx F/W series.

Have you heard any update on Motorola's efforts to create a firmware supporting eSATA?

Are the DCH products expected to feature working SATA before year's end?

Last word from our Moto rep. is middle of summer 2007, for a beta release of updated DRM code for all of the Motorola DCT & DCH DVR STB's.

Just to clear up this mis information.

It is a Software problem. It is bad code.

The CPU in the Moto DCT 64xxp3 & DCT 34xxp1 & P2 series STB is the same CPU in the TiVo S3, and several new STB from other companies. It is very power full and has yet to be pushed to it's limit's. The Remote lag is caused by inefficient code that handles the remote buffer and cpu cycles. The Remote buffer is not set as a priority level process. This code was changed in F/W 12.31, 12.35 and has been completely rewritten in all of the 15.xx, 16.xx, 17.xx F/W series.

My 3416 has fw 12.35 and I still have remote lag. Sometimes up to 20-30 seconds before the box executes remote commands rapid fire.

Then why haven't the issues been addressed by Comcast/Motorola if it's just a software issue. Some of the problems are severe enough that they must have put some effort into fixing them. The amount of effort put into resolving a software issue is often directly proportional to how much the problem affects sales/revenues. That's why it has taken so long for some issue to be addressed. While something might annoy you to heck, if it doesn't cause vast numbers of customers to stop paying the company, the company will take far less agressive action.

Well, its official. Comcast sent out new pricing sheets raising the monthly cost of their HD 'DVR' another 4 to 6 bucks. I'm watching the shows and returning it, and saving up for a second S3.

Especially since I'm eligible for the new, now-discounted CableCard rates (lower than what the Adelphia billing system was previously charging!), and also for the one free basic (digital) cable box for the outlet using Cablecards!

Maybe someday, when the TiVo OS is released on the Moto boxes in my area, I'll reconsider leasing a 6412. It was an OK stop-gap while it lasted :) I'll be sure to let them know the increased price for the inferior product thing didn't ive well with me, assuming someone keeps track of the reasons subscribers provide for returning their 'DVR' s.

Your DVR STB will more then likely be out the door to a new subscriber within 24 Hours.

scanpa,

I take it Comcast still plans to charge $3-6/mo extra for the Tivo software upgrade? Will any of these DVR rate hikes be factored into that?

A few months ago, I think most expected to get a DVR with Tivo from Comcast for about $15/mo. With the recent hikes, somes areas may have to pay closer to $20/mo, if none of that hike was applied toward the expected pricing of the DVR service with Tivo.

Expect that the surcharge for TiVo software will be beyond what it already charged for the DVR service.

Just to clear up this mis information.

It is a Software problem. It is bad code.

The CPU in the Moto DCT 64xxp3 & DCT 34xxp1 & P2 series STB is the same CPU in the TiVo S3, and several new STB from other companies. It is very power full and has yet to be pushed to it's limit's. The Remote lag is caused by inefficient code that handles the remote buffer and cpu cycles. The Remote buffer is not set as a priority level process. This code was changed in F/W 12.31, 12.35 and has been completely rewritten in all of the 15.xx, 16.xx, 17.xx F/W series.

What about the 6412p2? I have a 6412p2 with F/W 16.20. The Remote lag is as bad as it's ever been after the most recent upgrade. Is that still a software problem (meaning they still haven't really fixed it), or is the p2 a less powerful CPU compared with the p3 and 34xxp1 & p2? Is it worth it to get it replaced?

The Remote lag is caused by inefficient code that handles the remote buffer and cpu cycles. The Remote buffer is not set as a priority level process. This code was changed in F/W 12.31, 12.35 and has been completely rewritten in all of the 15.xx, 16.xx, 17.xx F/W series.

Ah, good to know. It was terrible last night (lag on almost every command), but seems to have improved as of this morning.

Your DVR STB will more then likely be out the door to a new subscriber within 24 Hours.

And I don't begrudge that new customer that. I know I'm not KILLING Comcast by returning one measly box, but I'm not going to sugarcoat it and say this inferior box is worth the higher and higher rental fees they want for them :)

Your point?

What about the 6412p2? I have a 6412p2 with F/W 16.20. The Remote lag is as bad as it's ever been after the most recent upgrade. Is that still a software problem (meaning they still haven't really fixed it), or is the p2 a less powerful CPU compared with the p3 and 34xxp1 & p2? Is it worth it to get it replaced?
I don't know if the PII has a less powerful processer, but it used to function WITHOUT lag until Comcast broke it. So one would think it could function that way again. That being said, My PII lags as badly as ever (and I have not checked the F/W level lately).

And I don't begrudge that new customer that. I know I'm not KILLING Comcast by returning one measly box, but I'm not going to sugarcoat it and say this inferior box is worth the higher and higher rental fees they want for them :)

Your point?
Only in the cable TV universe would the cost for the same piece of hardware go up instead of going down over the years. :p

It is a Software problem. It is bad code.

The CPU in the Moto DCT 64xxp3 & DCT 34xxp1 & P2 series STB is the same CPU in the TiVo S3, and several new STB from other companies. It is very power full and has yet to be pushed to it's limit's. The Remote lag is caused by inefficient code that handles the remote buffer and cpu cycles. The Remote buffer is not set as a priority level process. This code was changed in F/W 12.31, 12.35 and has been completely rewritten in all of the 15.xx, 16.xx, 17.xx F/W series.

That may be the case, and if so whoever re-wrote the code should be FIRED.

(16.20 *sucks* as far as remote lag is concerned! They've fixed *NOTHING*.)

Sorry, it's not your fault, I'm just frustrated.

(16.20 *sucks* as far as remote lag is concerned! They've fixed *NOTHING*.)

Yes, if they had intentionally wanted to alienate their most avid users, they couldn't have done a better job of it. Now many of us wonder how the Tivo software could possibly be any good on this POS we have, when in actuality it might very well be the current software that's making an acceptable piece of hardware look terrible. The continuing lag problem makes many of us think Comcast is incompetent or clueless, and we seek out other alternatives.

And customer loyalty, once lost, is a hard thing to regain.

Scanpa, any new news to report?

Scanpa, any new news to report?

nope! except there are a crap load of job openings available in all Comcast locations and departments.

Lebanon
Reading
Lancaster
Hershey
Harrisburg
West Shore
York

For anyone who has Moto boxes thru Comcast, is there any way around the 160gb hard drive? for HD recordings that's not a lot of storage.

For anyone who has Moto boxes thru Comcast, is there any way around the 160gb hard drive? for HD recordings that's not a lot of storage.

No.... One of our Canadian members added a much larger drive to his owned DVR and it set up as just a 160gb.

For anyone who has Moto boxes thru Comcast, is there any way around the 160gb hard drive? for HD recordings that's not a lot of storage.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9709350&&#post9709350

"Curently the 160GB HDD is the largest HDD Available.

STB models: DCT 3416, DCT 6416, DCH 3416, DCH 6416

External eSata HDD support is not available due to DRM issues."

What is "DRM"?

"Curently the 160GB HDD is the largest HDD Available.

STB models: DCT 3416, DCT 6416, DCH 3416, DCH 6416

External eSata HDD support is not available due to DRM issues."

What is "DRM"?Digital Rights Management (DRM) is the industry's term for encryption technology to prevent unauthorized content copying and redistribution (piracy), which helps Hollywood maintain some control of their property, but also has the affect of curbing fair use by consumers.

Said a different way, external HDD support is not yet available because they haven't figured the means to save content to the hard drive in a way that best discourages pirates from copying the content to their computer and sending it over the Internet.

Ah ok, makes sense. thank you.
hopefully some day...

nope! except there are a crap load of job openings available in all Comcast locations and departments.

Lebanon
Reading
Lancaster
Hershey
Harrisburg
West Shore
York

Yeah, your right... besides the usual CS Rep, Retention, and Comm Tech 1-3, theres a financial analyst, comm-tech 4-6 Headend Tech, Maintance Techs, Conditional Access Specialist, CMTS/IP Senior Engineer, etc...

Too bad that Headend Tech is in Lebanon, and I'm not a Comm Tech, I'm a Systems Administrator for a manufacturing company. Otherwise I'd shoot for that job.


Cant wait for Tivo. Any news please share it. We still didn't get the VRN Guide, but thats the least of my worries right now.... would rather have Tivo.

I haven't noticed if Comcast has raised the monthly fee for my DVR. I never look at my bill and it's on auto-pay. If they have -- it's totally not worth it!! Keenan, you're dead right. Why are they raising the price on our old hardware, which depreciates over time AND gets cheaper to manufacture over time? Jerks.

That being said -- I am so very, very tired of waiting around for this Comcast/Tivo box. If it doesn't drop by the end of April, I'm going to have to just go buy an S3 Tivo.

Only in the cable TV universe would the cost for the same piece of hardware go up instead of going down over the years. :p

Not only that, in my area, they charge around $5 MORE for the 2nd through Nth DVRs. I don't recall the exact numbers and don't have a bill handy, but the first one costs me $12, and the additional ones cost me $17 per month. AFAIR, this is the only time I've paid more, per piece, for being a high-quantity consumer.

Not only that, in my area, they charge around $5 MORE for the 2nd through Nth DVRs. I don't recall the exact numbers and don't have a bill handy, but the first one costs me $12, and the additional ones cost me $17 per month. AFAIR, this is the only time I've paid more, per piece, for being a high-quantity consumer.

That's because you get one "free" STB rental with a digital account. So with you first DVR, you're just paying for the service. From 2nd through N, you're paying for both the service and the STB rental.

That's because you get one "free" STB rental with a digital account. So with you first DVR, you're just paying for the service. From 2nd through N, you're paying for both the service and the STB rental.

That makes sense. I wish it had been explained that clearly by the Comcast CSR I called; she just kept repeating "I know it's strange, but that's the way it is."

Thanks for the explanation.

I haven't noticed if Comcast has raised the monthly fee for my DVR. I never look at my bill and it's on auto-pay. If they have -- it's totally not worth it!! Keenan, you're dead right. Why are they raising the price on our old hardware, which depreciates over time AND gets cheaper to manufacture over time? Jerks.

That being said -- I am so very, very tired of waiting around for this Comcast/Tivo box. If it doesn't drop by the end of April, I'm going to have to just go buy an S3 Tivo.
It's cable TV, the price of everything always goes up. They'll probably start charging to dispose of the old cable when they come to replace it with new. In fact, they probably already do. :D

The prices here dropped for cable installation by 20% to 30%.

If it wasn't for the local sports in HD...I for the first time in years would be thinking of dropping Comcast. My bill has been raised to $124.30 per month now (including internet access)! With SBC offering DSL for $20 a month, I could give a damn whether I get 1.5 Mbps or 5 Mbps....all I do is look at news, post reviews, and read forums for Christs sakes. The cable rates are getting to be outragous!

It's cable TV, the price of everything always goes up. :D
Too bad the alternative is to buy a $300 box with satellite and then pay them a monthly fee on top of that! :confused: :eek:

Too bad the alternative is to buy a $300 box with satellite and then pay them a monthly fee on top of that! :confused: :eek:
I think you can get the sat boxes for literally nothing currently(rebates, credits, etc.), you do have to pay the "lease" fee though each month.

This is truly totally off topic, but ...

the reason I have cable is because I have 9 TVs. Yep, 9 - 4 bedrooms, kitchen, family room, rec room and dedicated theater. Only 2 of these are HD capable - the family room and theater, so I can simply run cheap coax to the others. Can't do that with sat because they each need their own box - and you pay for each box.

BTW, basic cable is relatively cheap. I think its $21 + tax in my area. Its the add ons, extra for expanded basic, like $6/m for each HD box, extra for HBO, extra for DVR, etc that ends up adding up. Keep in mind that Comcast has to invest in additional capacity and head end gear to support more HD content, and their shareholders expect a reasonable return, so that typically means charging more where they feel they can get it.

But, hey, the thing about a free market is you are free to spend your money elsewhere if you are not satisfied with the value you are getting. If you can show me a deal where I can have 7 standard and 2 HD feeds, HBO, SHO, and HS internet for the $90/mo I pay, pls let me know.

One more point - I pay $77/mo for my cell phone. And its not HD. So by comparison, I don't find it outlandish.

This is truly totally off topic, but ...

the reason I have cable is because I have 9 TVs. Yep, 9 - 4 bedrooms, kitchen, family room, rec room and dedicated theater. Only 2 of these are HD capable - the family room and theater, so I can simply run cheap coax to the others. Can't do that with sat because they each need their own box - and you pay for each box.

BTW, basic cable is relatively cheap. I think its $21 + tax in my area. Its the add ons, extra for expanded basic, like $6/m for each HD box, extra for HBO, extra for DVR, etc that ends up adding up. Keep in mind that Comcast has to invest in additional capacity and head end gear to support more HD content, and their shareholders expect a reasonable return, so that typically means charging more where they feel they can get it.

But, hey, the thing about a free market is you are free to spend your money elsewhere if you are not satisfied with the value you are getting. If you can show me a deal where I can have 7 standard and 2 HD feeds, HBO, SHO, and HS internet for the $90/mo I pay, pls let me know.


I must agree. I switched from DirectTV awhile back and got a discount from it. But I have their upgraded 8MBps connection and all the channels (minus TMC/Cinemax which charge OUTRAGEOUS prices)... With HD DVR and everything else, it's around $130 per month. However, I do think they need to get their butts in gear with resolving these DVR bugs...

This is truly totally off topic, but ...

show me a deal where I can have 7 standard and 2 HD feeds, HBO, SHO, and HS internet for the $90/mo I pay, pls let me know.


Personally I like Comcast and have been with them for a long time ( TN and now in IL). You must have some sort of promotion otherwise there is no way you will get all of the services that you list for $90/month.

Digital Cable + HBO, SHO itself is ~90 and ~42 for internet.


CSR here in Chicago area (compared to TN) are not customer driven. On top of that you need to ~$2.xx everytime you make change ( the option is phone).

Too bad the alternative is to buy a $300 box with satellite and then pay them a monthly fee on top of that! :confused: :eek:

You could use MythTV...

You could use MythTV...MythTV is not an option. It doesn't record high-definition cable channels from satellite or cable.

I don't know about you, but my cable provider has 27 high-definition channels, and all but six are encrypted. These channels represent 95% of my viewing.

You must have some sort of promotion otherwise there is no way you will get all of the services that you list for $90/month.
Digital Cable + HBO, SHO itself is ~90 and ~42 for internet.

Ah, you see, I don't have Digital Cable, I have Enhanced Basic. And, yes, the HD boxes work fine and decode all the digitial channels.

MythTV is not an option. It doesn't record high-definition cable channels from satellite or cable.

I don't know about you, but my cable provider has 27 high-definition channels, and all but six are encrypted. These channels represent 95% of my viewing.

I don't know about satellite, but mythtv has multiple ways of recording high definition from cable (firewire and various QAM tuners). I'm lucky that in my area with my box I get all my locals in HD via QAM (and various other stations). Through my cable boxes' firewire I get all HD channels, including HBO, Showtime, etc. Only a couple of the stations have 5c "protection." But for me, 95% of my watching is on local HD, which I get via QAM, ATSC, and firewire.

I don't know about satellite, but mythtv has multiple ways of recording high definition from cable (firewire and various QAM tuners). I'm lucky that in my area with my box I get all my locals in HD via QAM (and various other stations). Through my cable boxes' firewire I get all HD channels, including HBO, Showtime, etc. Only a couple of the stations have 5c "protection." But for me, 95% of my watching is on local HD, which I get via QAM, ATSC, and firewire.

Not seamless. Not fine for encrypted channels.
But awesome if you want to archive/convert/transcode HD programming to watch elsewhere/while commuting etc.

The S3 TiVo is easily the path of least resistance, greatest ease and most reliability :) They better be allowed to turn on TTG and MRV soon though!

Not seamless. Not fine for encrypted channels.
But awesome if you want to archive/convert/transcode HD programming to watch elsewhere/while commuting etc.

The S3 TiVo is easily the path of least resistance, greatest ease and most reliability :) They better be allowed to turn on TTG and MRV soon though!

Well, it can be pretty seamless, but it depends on your situation. Such as if you have a common motorola DCT 62xx or 34xx where 5c is off for almost all stations (as I do) it is pretty seamless. Or depending on what channels you really want. But the problem with myth is that how hard it is "depends" on your hardware, area, provider, etc. - too many factors for many. but it is way more extensible than the other solutions. And with the addition of the UPnP server it is really easy to watch recordings on on TVs, PCs, networked multimedia playes, and other devices without ever installing mythtv anywhere near them.

But I agree S3 Tivo is the path of least resistance and greatest ease for what it does. But without TTG and MRV it doesn't do it for me, and for the price I built two HD mythboxes that serve all TV and audio devices in my house. If it were less, and TTG that and MRV I could use on a non-Tivo box (or the Tivo were inexpensive enough that I didn't care so much about that) then I would have never built any mythboxes.

I am skeptical that Cablelabs will ever allow TTG in the form we used to see it...

I'm going to radically change the subject here :D

Is there any new news on the Tivo Comcast service? Spring is approaching, and it was said that spring was the timeframe, right?

Well, it can be pretty seamless, but it depends on your situation. Such as if you have a common motorola DCT 62xx or 34xx where 5c is off for almost all stations (as I do) it is pretty seamless. Or depending on what channels you really want. But the problem with myth is that how hard it is "depends" on your hardware, area, provider, etc. - too many factors for many. but it is way more extensible than the other solutions. And with the addition of the UPnP server it is really easy to watch recordings on on TVs, PCs, networked multimedia playes, and other devices without ever installing mythtv anywhere near them.



So, can you explain how using firewire enables a seamless experience? I'm running Vista Media Center and have an SD and HD tuner card. The HD tuner card is QAM compatible (as well as OTA) but Vista doesn't yet support QAM. How do others (and how would I) use the firewire connection to work across the Comcast DVR and my Vista Media Center DVR?

Any info greatly appreciated.
Thanks,

So, can you explain how using firewire enables a seamless experience? I'm running Vista Media Center and have an SD and HD tuner card. The HD tuner card is QAM compatible (as well as OTA) but Vista doesn't yet support QAM. How do others (and how would I) use the firewire connection to work across the Comcast DVR and my Vista Media Center DVR?Most Comcast service areas -- including those in PA -- use 5C, so the option he suggested won't work. Most customers will need a Vista with OCUR (http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=2662&p=2) to record all their digital cable channels with a PC; a QAM tuner won't cut it.

I NEED this update. I am so sick of the Comcast guide, and after watching how the Tivo interface looks http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/003507.html I am ready to get this software.

I called Comcast today and asked for an ETA. They didn't know, but they did know what I was talking about, so that's good.

Don't we have any inside peeps from Comcast looking at this thread? Give us a timeline man! ;)

So, can you explain how using firewire enables a seamless experience? I'm running Vista Media Center and have an SD and HD tuner card. The HD tuner card is QAM compatible (as well as OTA) but Vista doesn't yet support QAM. How do others (and how would I) use the firewire connection to work across the Comcast DVR and my Vista Media Center DVR?

Any info greatly appreciated.
Thanks,

I have not done this with Vista, only with Linux/MythTV. I believe you might want to look into capDVHS (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=403695) or something similar for windows - but that would hardly be seamless for scheduling and making recordings. But as bfdtv points out, many cable boxes have 5c encryption turned on for most channels (I'm in an area where that isn't true, as are many others) so you should check your cable box first. If you have one of the common motorola DVRs search the forums or for the wiki to find out how you can check on your box.

This amount of trouble and research necessary is why it would be nice if the rented DVRs and s3 Tivos would perform better and/or have more features. Any day they can change my QAM mappings or turn on 5c and I would have to modify my setup. It would be nice if the hardware capabilities of these boxes were fully enabled, but I'm not holding my breath...

The 5c should only be enabled for the premium channels.

ajwees41

The 5c should only be enabled for the premium channels.

ajwees41

Not true. I've seen it enabled on network stations during prime time. The 5c flag seems to "come and go" on these channels...sometimes depending on the channel and even the program (e.g. it could be turned on on CBS at 9:00 but not at 9:30).

Not true. I've seen it enabled on network stations during prime time. The 5c flag seems to "come and go" on these channels...sometimes depending on the channel and even the program (e.g. it could be turned on on CBS at 9:00 but not at 9:30).

Really? I thought the network feeds had to be 100% open so digital tuners in the new TVs can pick up the stations without a cable box. :confused:

I could be wrong, but I thought 5C only had to do with recording, not viewing. Being 100% open means not being encrypted and that is totally different thanthe 5C settings.

Not true. I've seen it enabled on network stations during prime time. The 5c flag seems to "come and go" on these channels...sometimes depending on the channel and even the program (e.g. it could be turned on on CBS at 9:00 but not at 9:30).


That's not the 5c on the brodcast channels, but incorrect brodcast flag settings.

ajwees41

That's not the 5c on the brodcast channels, but incorrect brodcast flag settings.

ajwees41

You are confusing 5c with encryption. While the legality of whether or not 5c can be used is still being debated, networks are still able to send the flag over with their transmission. It's encryption the networks (and cable MSO's) cannot use with broadcast channels.

I could be wrong, but I thought 5C only had to do with recording, not viewing. Being 100% open means not being encrypted and that is totally different thanthe 5C settings.

That is correct. 5c set to 0 means it can be recorded freely an number of times. 5c set to 1 means it can only be copied once (recording to your STB is the 'once'). 5c set to 2 means it can never be copied (e.g. PPV or OnDemand content).

I could be wrong, but I thought 5C only had to do with recording, not viewing. Being 100% open means not being encrypted and that is totally different thanthe 5C settings.As far as the Firewire connection goes, you can't view any content flagged as 5C "copy once" on a device unless its it authorized. PCs are not authorized devices.

The response was regarding a comment about viewing on digital cable-ready TVs, but since you brought it up, firewire output assumes an STB and they are then not the same. An encrypted channel can be recorded via firewire as long as the subscriber is authorized that channel and it is not 5C coded otherwise. While most, if not all, encrypted channels may also have 5C restrictions today (at least where 5C has been implemented), there is nothing that directly ties the 2 schemes together. For example, HBO and the cableco could decide to 5C HBO as copy freely, but it would still be encrypted to limit viewing to authorized subs. Practical arguments aside, they are still not the same and should not be confused as being so for any reason.

You are confusing 5c with encryption. While the legality of whether or not 5c can be used is still being debated, networks are still able to send the flag over with their transmission. It's encryption the networks (and cable MSO's) cannot use with broadcast channels.


Nio I am not. The Brodcast channels can not be 5c, but the CCI (Copy control Infromation) could also be misconfigured preventing copying with firewire to a computer.


Don't trust me check for yourself. Turn to a brodcast channel on your cable box and check for the 5c protection it will be none, but the CCI will be 2.


ajwees41

Where implemented, ALL channels, including broadcast channels, are 5C, the broadcast channels just happen to be "copy freely", though I'm not sure there is any rule that says they can't be restricted. They cannot, however, be encrypted.

Where implemented, ALL channels, including broadcast channels, are 5C, the broadcast channels just happen to be "copy freely", though I'm not sure there is any rule that says they can't be restricted. They cannot, however, be encrypted.


Are you sure about that? Cox Omaha's locals have no 5c setting, but are set CCI 02.

ajwees41

First post but I am looking for some advice (probably the wrong forum, but my decision is Tivo based). I am building an addition and am choosing my long term media solution (what cables to bury). I currently have SD Directv Tivo and a non-dvr HD box (also have AT&T DSL). I am realizing that my wife needs Tivo no matter what cool things I throw her, and that I may also be an Tivo addict. I am leaning towards Comcast (with Tivo whenever it gets here) and yanking the dish. My bills are really high (about $200 for landline, dsl, and directv). If you guys were to hedge on the best "pipe" three years from now, what would it be? I'm in Chicago, will SBC/AT&T lay fiber to pole if I pay for it? I work in VOD for a large media company and I know u-verse isn't that far away for me. I am not going to re-trench anytime soon, so my decicion has to be final. Should I even lay regular phone if I go with a comcast triple play? Lay my own fiber (not likely) or ethernet to "future proof" myself?

Thanks guys, not sure where else to turn...

First post but I am looking for some advice (probably the wrong forum, but my decision is Tivo based). I am building an addition and am choosing my long term media solution (what cables to bury). I currently have SD Directv Tivo and a non-dvr HD box (also have AT&T DSL). I am realizing that my wife needs Tivo no matter what cool things I throw her, and that I may also be an Tivo addict. I am leaning towards Comcast (with Tivo whenever it gets here) and yanking the dish. My bills are really high (about $200 for landline, dsl, and directv). If you guys were to hedge on the best "pipe" three years from now, what would it be? I'm in Chicago, will SBC/AT&T lay fiber to pole if I pay for it? I work in VOD for a large media company and I know u-verse isn't that far away for me. I am not going to re-trench anytime soon, so my decicion has to be final. Should I even lay regular phone if I go with a comcast triple play? Lay my own fiber (not likely) or ethernet to "future proof" myself?

Thanks guys, not sure where else to turn...


Cat 5e or Cat6 will definitely help future proof your home. But there are so many technologies out there that no single selection is future proofing. you could always use a wireless phone with multiple handsets even if you don't run a telephone line, regardless of who your telephone provider is. But if it doesn't cost much more, adding some phone line won't hurt. I don't know your configuration but you might want to consider some RG6 as well...

Fiber is a bit out of range for me so I can't really comment on that. Gigabit (with cat 5e or cat 6) will be enough for the needs I can anticipate now.

I'd also run an HDMI line along with it, or get a really, really cool HT nook setup as a hub, with HDMI running to more than one TV (through a suitable dual-synching splitter, of course), as well as a good wireless/remote extension solution :)

[/dreaming]
:)

Are you sure about that? Cox Omaha's locals have no 5c setting, but are set CCI 02.I'm not sure about anything when it comes to cable and the application of rules. The point is that 5C is one thing and encryption is another and I don't know why some are trying to lump them together. Encryption was here long before 5C was even thought of.

As for your settings, are you saying there is nothing in the EMI field on pg 32 of the diagnostics for your locals, but there are settings (once, never, freely) for other channels?

First post but I am looking for some advice (probably the wrong forum, but my decision is Tivo based). I am building an addition and am choosing my long term media solution (what cables to bury). I currently have SD Directv Tivo and a non-dvr HD box (also have AT&T DSL). I am realizing that my wife needs Tivo no matter what cool things I throw her, and that I may also be an Tivo addict. I am leaning towards Comcast (with Tivo whenever it gets here) and yanking the dish. My bills are really high (about $200 for landline, dsl, and directv). If you guys were to hedge on the best "pipe" three years from now, what would it be? I'm in Chicago, will SBC/AT&T lay fiber to pole if I pay for it? I work in VOD for a large media company and I know u-verse isn't that far away for me. I am not going to re-trench anytime soon, so my decicion has to be final. Should I even lay regular phone if I go with a comcast triple play? Lay my own fiber (not likely) or ethernet to "future proof" myself?

Thanks guys, not sure where else to turn...

Aright, I would go with CAT5E throughout the house, into every room I could possibly get it to. Gigabit ethernet LAN speeds are going to sustain us all for at least our own lifetimes, and probably that of our children.

As for providers and TV termination devices, we have alot in common. I am a full-on Tivo addict, and still have my HR10-250 DirecTivo, mostly just for the NFL package. I have made the switch to Comcast HD Cable, and I terminate the service via 2 cablecards in a Tivo Series 3 HD box. If you have not seen or used a Series 3 Tivo, you really need to. It is expensive at about 700 bucks, but it is absolutely beautiful in terms of Picture Quality, much better than the overly compressed DirecTV satellite HD. It will also do OverTheAir HD by the way, not that that is too important to most people. Very shortly, Tivo will be going fully live with their partnership with Amazon's Unbox video download service, allowing for movie/TV show rentals to be pulled directly to the Tivo via the ethernet port on the back. If you decide to go with AT&T's FIOS service, I guess called U-Verse, you could still use the Series 3 provided they support cablecards, which I believe they do.

Get a nice wifi setup going as well, maybe use 802.11n capable equipment - LinkSys makes some nice stuff. Don't rely on wireless if you can help it for video downloads into the entertainment areas, it is sacrificing speed that you could be getting with a less-prone-to-retransmits fixed ethernet connection.

HTH,
Brian

I'm not sure about anything when it comes to cable and the application of rules. The point is that 5C is one thing and encryption is another and I don't know why some are trying to lump them together. Encryption was here long before 5C was even thought of.

As for your settings, are you saying there is nothing in the EMI field on pg 32 of the diagnostics for your locals, but there are settings (once, never, freely) for other channels?

My understanding of 5c is that its specs include encryption. It includes 4 layers of protection:
Copy Control Information (CCI) - which specifies how the content can be shared (copy-freely, copy-never, copy-one-generation, no-more-copies)
Authentication and key exchange for devices to verify authenticity when trying to share content. there can be full and restricted authentication, which determine which of the CCI levels can be used
Encryption of content - a cipher (or ciphers) is used to encrypt and decrypt copyrighted content
system renewability - so devices can renew their authentication.


Yes, encryption was around long before 5c, but 5c does have its own encryption. It is different from the encryption cable companies use so that only set top boxes and cable cards can decrypt their "premium" and other encrypted channels.

My understanding of 5c is that its specs include encryption. It includes 4 layers of protection:
Copy Control Information (CCI) - which specifies how the content can be shared (copy-freely, copy-never, copy-one-generation, no-more-copies)
Authentication and key exchange for devices to verify authenticity when trying to share content. there can be full and restricted authentication, which determine which of the CCI levels can be used
Encryption of content - a cipher (or ciphers) is used to encrypt and decrypt copyrighted content
system renewability - so devices can renew their authentication.


Yes, encryption was around long before 5c, but 5c does have its own encryption. It is different from the encryption cable companies use so that only set top boxes and cable cards can decrypt their "premium" and other encrypted channels.

You are correct...the original DTCP specification does include encryption. However I believe this portion of the spec has pretty much been abandoned due to compatibility issues. Here's a link to the original spec dated 1998 (warning, PDF): http://www.dtcp.com/data/wp_spec.pdf

I guess my knowledge of 5c is a little old. It seems to me, however, that without that encryption there is a significant security hole in DTCP that someone with more talent than me in that area might one day exploit.

Yes, encryption was around long before 5c, but 5c does have its own encryption. It is different from the encryption cable companies use so that only set top boxes and cable cards can decrypt their "premium" and other encrypted channels.I can't argue with that, but the original discussion of this aspect began with this quote and a comment before that:
Really? I thought the network feeds had to be 100% open so digital tuners in the new TVs can pick up the stations without a cable box. :confused:I don't want to belabor the point, but it seems clear that what was being discussed in both posts was standard cable encryption, not the 5C stuff, and it was being incorrectly lumped in with 5C rules in some responses. IMHO, cable encryption to disable unauthorized channels is totally separate from ANY 5C issue.

I can't argue with that, but the original discussion of this aspect began with this quote and a comment before that:
I don't want to belabor the point, but it seems clear that what was being discussed in both posts was standard cable encryption, not the 5C stuff, and it was being incorrectly lumped in with 5C rules in some responses. IMHO, cable encryption to disable unauthorized channels is totally separate from ANY 5C issue.

I know where the discussion started and I don't think what was being discussed was clear - hence part of the reason for all the disagreement and confusion. I was just trying to lend as much clarity as possible. While I'm sure you and others were clear on what you meant, saying 5c and encryption are totally different isn't clear and further confuses an already confusing issue. Saying 5c encryption and the encryption you were referring are different would be clearer, which was my point.

I NEED this update. I am so sick of the Comcast guide, and after watching how the Tivo interface looks http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/003507.html I am ready to get this software.

I called Comcast today and asked for an ETA. They didn't know, but they did know what I was talking about, so that's good.

Don't we have any inside peeps from Comcast looking at this thread? Give us a timeline man! ;)


I called Comcast yesterday and they said while they don't know when it will start, training for it is in March sometime, so April/May seems like a good bet...

Hey, no problem, clarification is always a good thing. :)

Of course, this whole thread is confusing because there is so very little about the topic. :D

Thanks guys (ManWithAPlan, newlinux, ashutoshsm)
I'm pretty much set on Comcast but I think I'm going to have the phone company bury a "regular" phone line as well. I just don't feel comfortable relying on comcast as my only physical connection to the world. It's funny to me that this has really come down to Tivo for me. As much as I hate so say my decision is software based, it is. Tivo=itunes...it just works better. I should have mentioned that I am running CAT5 and coax throughout the new space, so for inside I should be all set. Running HDMI sounds interesting, but I think if I really needed that much bandwidth in the future, there will some way to do it with the CAT5. My debate is how much to spend to bury the utilities, and which ones (it's surprisingly expensive). Sorry again, I know a lot of this is off topic, but most of this thread is debating digital encryption algorithm's anyway, so I don't feel that bad. :)

Edit: I'll look into the series 3 once the construction is done (mid-summer). I'm hesitant to throw down much capitol on these things, although I'm sure it's much better then the comcast thing will be. What's the connection between the decoder and Tivo? Cablecard? IR blaster? Serial? I really want one unified box (actually that's a mandate from my wife). But I could get away with two if it was a seamless connection.

Why not bury a few conduits for future requirements. Whatever you may need later can easily be placed in the conduit. Note that you have to have separate conduits for telephone and TV, and obviously electric.

all of the low voltage stuff can go in a simple pvc conduit. put in a length of synthetic fiber rope as well when you do it to make pulling a new service easy.

as others mentioned the electrical service needs to go in a separate conduit.

the low voltage stuff should be very inexpensive to run.

jtm

bobby94928,
Thanks for the tip. That is a great idea, so good in fact that I just added that to my plan (break ground in 2 weeks). My contractor just informed me that they have a comed certified guy on staff that will be laying the power. AT&T may let him do POTS also. They think comcast has to lay their own, but they pay for new customers. I have asked for two empty conduits (it was cheap!) to be layed from the new part of the basement to the new "green box" at the pole behind my house. Now if AT&T wants to give me fiber in a few years, it's fairly easy. This solves my problems, I knew I came to the right place.
Now on to my easier Tivo decision...

I NEED this update. I am so sick of the Comcast guide, and after watching how the Tivo interface looks http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/003507.html I am ready to get this software.

I called Comcast today and asked for an ETA. They didn't know, but they did know what I was talking about, so that's good.

Don't we have any inside peeps from Comcast looking at this thread? Give us a timeline man! ;)


I spoke to an actual "local" Comcast rep a few weeks back (in the Visalia, CA office while swapping my older Moto 6412 w/ DVI out for a 6416 SIII w/ HDMI). She told me that they expect to have the Tivo situation--in my neck of the woods, at least--up and running by early summer. Around the same time that Comcast in my market area (Fresno, CA) is expected to make the switch-over to "all-digital".

Edit: I'll look into the series 3 once the construction is done (mid-summer). I'm hesitant to throw down much capitol on these things, although I'm sure it's much better then the comcast thing will be. What's the connection between the decoder and Tivo? Cablecard? IR blaster? Serial? I really want one unified box (actually that's a mandate from my wife). But I could get away with two if it was a seamless connection.

The S3 IS a one-box solution to digital (including encrypted) and analog cable, as well as OTA (ATSC & NTSC).

Watch the PPV/SDV discussions on tivocommunity, in the interest of full disclosure, if either of those is important to you, in your scenario.

In a nutshell, if SDV gets deployed, the S3 won't be able to support those services.

In a nutshell, if SDV gets deployed, the S3 won't be able to support those services.

(and, as always, you conveniently forget to complete your sentence)


... if TiVo does nothing about it.

No, I didn't forget anything, conveniently or otherwise. What TiVo can "do about it" is release a new box with the hardware necessary to support SDV. The S3 cannot be updated via software to support SDV -- it is missing necessary hardware. If you have an S3 and SDV is introduced to your neighborhood, plan on not being able to use your S3 for those services.

This is speculation, AFAIR - TiVo has not confirmed the absence of such circuitry, nor the inability to push down a software patch.

And (if needed) the new box could be a teensy little accessory with a USB driver.

Too many ifs there for me to hide my head between my legs or in the sand and NOT enjoy an S3, and tolerate a 6412 in the interim. Very acceptable tradeoff . To me. Which is why I pointed jwebb to the TCF. And didn't provide him biased information :)

Thanks guys (ManWithAPlan, newlinux, ashutoshsm)
Edit: I'll look into the series 3 once the construction is done (mid-summer). I'm hesitant to throw down much capitol on these things, although I'm sure it's much better then the comcast thing will be. What's the connection between the decoder and Tivo? Cablecard? IR blaster? Serial? I really want one unified box (actually that's a mandate from my wife). But I could get away with two if it was a seamless connection.

There is no connection *between* the decoder and Tivo. The cable signal comes in from the wall and goes directly into the Tivo Series 3's Cable In RF coax jack. The 2 cablecards in the Tivo are the "decoders", as by definition, that is what a cablecard does. Using 2 simply allows for independent dual tuner functionality, such that you can record 2 different shows at the same time, and even watch a third, pre-recorded show at that time as well.

So, in review, your goal of having a single unified box is exactly why I'm telling you to get a Series 3. There is no "magic" in a cable box, and no need for one, it is all replaced with Cablecard, and after all, the Tivo functionality with the large drives for storage is the only good reason for a "box" at all.

Make sense?

Brian

This is speculation, AFAIR - TiVo has not confirmed the absence of such circuitry, nor the inability to push down a software patch.That's true. It is speculation by TCF members who are very well-regarded on technical issues.

And (if needed) the new box could be a teensy little accessory with a USB driver.That's speculation. Again, the prevailing wisdom is that an attached appliance would not resolve the issue.

Too many ifs there for me to hide my head between my legs or in the sand and NOT enjoy an S3, and tolerate a 6412 in the interim.And I think that highlights the choices folks have. The hardcore videophiles will find the S3 and its potential demise worth it, while J6P will find the Motorola DVRs a better deal. I'm somewhere in the middle. The S3 is insanely expensive, given how little advantage it provides over the Motorola DVRs. Just to demonstrate how indifferent I am between the two choices: If it worked with my Comcast digital cable, I would have kept the S3 I purchased. At least for me, the callous tech support guys lost TiVo an S3 sale, and lost TiVo a fan.

That's speculation. Again, the prevailing wisdom is that an attached appliance would not resolve the issue.And the prevailing wisdom used to be that high speed Internet service was not possible over phone lines or wireless.

If a cable box can do SDV, an external box attached to TiVo can do it. The only thing stopping it might be patents or copyright issues, or if every cable company handles SDV in its own different way, making it infeasible for third parties to make dozens of different third-party add-on boxes.

bobby94928,
Thanks for the tip. That is a great idea, so good in fact that I just added that to my plan (break ground in 2 weeks). My contractor just informed me that they have a comed certified guy on staff that will be laying the power. AT&T may let him do POTS also. They think comcast has to lay their own, but they pay for new customers. I have asked for two empty conduits (it was cheap!) to be layed from the new part of the basement to the new "green box" at the pole behind my house. Now if AT&T wants to give me fiber in a few years, it's fairly easy. This solves my problems, I knew I came to the right place.
Now on to my easier Tivo decision...
When Comcast added buried cable to our neighborhood, we were allowed to run in our own drop cables.

They provided the conduit and the coax and I buried the conduit and pulled the coax in. I spoke with their installation (of drops) foreman and he asked me for a measurement from the pedestal near the street to the termination point on my house (near the ground rod). He had the materials dropped off a day later.

Initially he wanted me to provide the trench (18" deep) and they would have come out and placed the conduit and cable for free, but I wanted to start and finish within a weekend and not leave the trench open too long. During that time I was commuting out of town every week for work, so I could not meet them during the week.

So, in review, your goal of having a single unified box is exactly why I'm telling you to get a Series 3. There is no "magic" in a cable box, and no need for one, it is all replaced with Cablecard, and after all, the Tivo functionality with the large drives for storage is the only good reason for a "box" at all.

On-Demand is magic enough for me. Also, why pay for a Tivo when you can rent a box for practically the same price as the Tivo monthly fee? If the box breaks, I can take it back and get a new one.

So, in review, your goal of having a single unified box is exactly why I'm telling you to get a Series 3. There is no "magic" in a cable box, and no need for one, it is all replaced with Cablecard, and after all, the Tivo functionality with the large drives for storage is the only good reason for a "box" at all.

Make sense?

Brian

Yes that does make sense. I didn't know Tivo had cablecard slot(s). Having been with the integrated Directv Tivo for 5 years now, I have not kept up with the standalones. I am aware of the limitations of CableCARD 1.0, so I know what to expect as far as the 2-way stuff. Luckily this decision does not have to be made until this summer (unlike my trenching) so I have the luxury to see what the Comcast Tivo looks like (maybe). I have been using the crippled Directv version for so long that the comcast one might seem great. If not, the s3 might be a little cheaper by then...

Also, why pay for a Tivo when you can rent a box for practically the same price as the Tivo monthly fee?
If said box evokes homicidal tendencies (e.g. does not have Tivo software) then I think it might not be such a great deal...but that's just me.

Why buy a Maserati Quatroporte when a Ford Taurus would do? Good point!

Why buy a Maserati Quatroporte when a Ford Taurus would do? Good point!

I dont think the difference is quite that drastic actually. Its more like a Taurus vs an Acura, but the Acura is 20 times more expensive, although not nearly that much nicer.

All in all the Tivo is nice and it has some features that are unique to it, but the price difference is so dramatic that for many it is hard to justify. Plus if you dont do the MRV, TTG and other stuff, which a majority dont, and all you do is basic recording and time shifting... the difference is even more marginal.

These days, an Acura is *barely* batter than a Taurus ... what with the Mazda 6 underpinnings of the current Ford 500 Taurus, and the unreliable transmissions in Acura TLs. But we digress.

I have both (the 6412 and the S3), and I've driven both (the Maserati QP & the new Taurus). My analogy stands :p

Well it all comes down to value, of course.

I had a Tivo S2 and I loved it, and the MS interface for the 6412 sucks compared to it, but the 6412 still records two shows at once which, in the end, is what I want. And I don't value the TiVo interface at an extra $600-900, especially since I have no guarantee it will be forwards-compatible, just as my S2 ended up not being and I dropped it for the 6412.

The Motorola box $ucks in ways I cannot speak of here, since this is a family forum. Comcast, please bring on the Tivo software.

You may be happy with it, and more power to you, but I HATE this s-box, and will soon find ways to see its departure if Comcast doesn't get off the pot.

Here's a question I don't think has been brought up yet (and my apologies if it's actually the 64th time somebody has mentioned this and somehow I missed the first 63): how would a Motorola box with TiVo software handle OnDemand?

Is it possible to fix the remote lag in this case, or is that just something we have to live with (like the 15-second delay in satellite radio) because the signal has to get back to the video source, which is nowhere near the box?

-- Don

Here's a question I don't think has been brought up yet (and my apologies if it's actually the 64th time somebody has mentioned this and somehow I missed the first 63): how would a Motorola box with TiVo software handle OnDemand?

Is it possible to fix the remote lag in this case, or is that just something we have to live with (like the 15-second delay in satellite radio) because the signal has to get back to the video source, which is nowhere near the box?

-- Don
Remote lag with On Demand will likely never go away, since the video stream is controlled at the head-end and not by the box (if you're in an area where On Demand streams are unencrypted and your TV has a QAM tuner, you can see this in action, although your neighbors might not like it).

There is also a remote lag issue with the Motorola box itself, where commands are sometimes buffered (in some cases for a half-minute or possibly longer) before being executed. This is a firmware issue (from what I've read) and must be fixed by Motorola (going to TiVo software won't have an impact). I've noticed that the problem is significantly improved in firmware 16.20, but the problem is still there.

Here's a question I don't think has been brought up yet (and my apologies if it's actually the 64th time somebody has mentioned this and somehow I missed the first 63): how would a Motorola box with TiVo software handle OnDemand?

Is it possible to fix the remote lag in this case, or is that just something we have to live with (like the 15-second delay in satellite radio) because the signal has to get back to the video source, which is nowhere near the box?

-- Don
That's the 64-dollar question. We don't know. However, before whatever the heck version of the software it was that induced the lag problem, the boxes didn't have a lag problem. So lag does not seem to be inherent to the hardware, just to the software.

Remote lag with On Demand will likely never go away, since the video stream is controlled at the head-end and not by the box (if you're in an area where On Demand streams are unencrypted and your TV has a QAM tuner, you can see this in action, although your neighbors might not like it).
One minor help I've noticed with OnDemand is to not hit PLAY to stop a FF or REW. Just hit FF or REW again. It seems to respond faster than to a PLAY. It's not 100%, but overall, it seems better.

Why buy a Maserati Quatroporte when a Ford Taurus would do? Good point!That's a great analogy, but I do agree with andydumi that the analogy is way too exaggerated. It's really the difference between an Acura and a Honda. No question that the Acura is higher quality, but also so much more expensive that reasonable people can disagree about which is a better value.

Plus if you dont do the MRV, TTG and other stuff, which a majority dont, and all you do is basic recording and time shifting... the difference is even more marginal.Fair warning: The S3 doesn't support MRV or TTG at this point, so if HD is your intention, you don't get those services anyway.

That's a great analogy, but I do agree with andydumi that the analogy is way too exaggerated. It's really the difference between an Acura and a Honda. No question that the Acura is higher quality, but also so much more expensive that reasonable people can disagree about which is a better value.
Actually I don't think that's a great analogy either, because while the Acura may have more features or be more luxurious, it's quality and that of the Honda are likely indistinguishable as both are manufactured by the same company.

But I take your point anyway. :)

Actually, that's one of the best parts of the analogy. Folks are often quick to point out that the Motorola DVRs and the TiVo Series 3 share the same core video circuitry.

I think you both forget to point out the most glaring difference in this analogy. The price. Effectively the Acura would be priced like a Ferrari, and the Honda/Ford would be a free up front and a risk free permanent rental, with both requiring regular maintenance fees like oil changes and gas.
Then a difference in quality would have to be huge in order to justify paying Ferrari prices for an Acura, a difference which in my opinion is just not there. I love the Tivo interface, and I like the Comcast interface, but the differences are subtle, and both devices have some stuff the other does not. And indeed a lot of the upderpinings are the same on both boxes in terms of hardware, its just the software (or fit and finish in a car) that differs. After all don't forget we are getting Tivo software on motorola boxes, and then the S3 will really be in deep water.

andy, you're forgetting yet that value is measured in MORE than numbers. The point of my Maserati/Ford comparison was that both are 4-door, 5 seaters, but the prices differ wildly. And arguably justifiably. If YOU can't justify it, thats your right!

While my old Acura did its job fine, this "Taurus" has a mind of its own. It gets me to work just fine, but after I'm there it will drive off on its own, and when I turn the steering wheel, it likes to delay the input for a while...

But yeah, you guys are right...it's all the same. [/moron]

I think the analogies are getting a bit arcane, but with regard to pricing and quality, I think the Acura/Honda comparison works very well. I wouldn't equate the Motorola DVR's monthly fee to oil changes -- it's more like a payment plan for a $0 down car loan (which you pay for your TiVo Series 3 in cash, up-front).

bicker1, the monthly DVR fee is no different than the on-going monthly Tivo fee, though it may be higher in some cases. That is where the oil change analogy comes from, not the rental vs purchase price.

The bottomline still is that some folks believe the upfront cost for the S3 is worth it and that's all that really matters. In many cases though, the monthly cost for Tivo service is about the same as the monthly rental for the cable DVR. This makes the upfront cost for the S3 a total loss, not a difference between paying cash vs monthly payments.

It's not unlike a DVD player. You can buy a player or purchase PPV/premiun cable channels. The player is a sunk cost. Then you still have to rent/buy DVDs vs paying the PPV/premium channel fees. It's all just a matter of convenience and personal wants/needs, nothing more.

Thought this might be relevant here:

http://www.engadget.com/2007/03/08/tivo-ceo-promises-lower-priced-hd-tivo-this-year/

fender, I thought it was interesting that the article mentioned OCUR-enabled Vista PC's as competition to the TiVo. Right now, early systems are like $2800+ but if there were a chance to buy the $240 ATI cablecard tuner separately, it would be real competition to TiVo.

fender, I thought it was interesting that the article mentioned OCUR-enabled Vista PC's as competition to the TiVo. Right now, early systems are like $2800+ but if there were a chance to buy the $240 ATI cablecard tuner separately, it would be real competition to TiVo.

I agree. Tivo's advantage is the superior software/interface. I've always thought it was because they controlled both the hardware and software (kinda like OS X running on a Mac). It will be interesting to see if Tivo can still produce top-notch software when they don't control the hardware. If they can't then the new HTPC's may be the way to go...

<engadget URL that I'm not allowed to post>


At first I was excited by this since I want to go back to Tivo. The UI on the WOW SA8300HD DVR I have now is painful to use. But how exactly will Tivo make it lower end? What are they going to take out to make it cheaper? Isn't the S3 already missing some of the old S2 features???

In many cases though, the monthly cost for Tivo service is about the same as the monthly rental for the cable DVR.Multiplied by two.

But how exactly will Tivo make it lower end? What are they going to take out to make it cheaper? Isn't the S3 already missing some of the old S2 features???There are two sub-series within the S2. I have one of each. My Pioneer is a "high-end" S2, with superior components. My Humax is inferior. My understanding is that some of the processing which is accomplished in a co-processor in the Pioneer is done via software in the Humax, making for a much clunkier piece of hardware. I suspect that's the direction they'll go to make the cheaper sub-series of the S3.

I had the Comcast DVR for a few months and got fed up with it and decided to go for the TiVo S3.

The Comcast box (Motorola) was noisy, the user interface cumbersome, the searching feature pathetic, and it had half the capacity of the TiVo (which can be upgraded to even more).

I may have been biased because I had used a DirecTiVo (standard definition) for years and was accustomed to the TiVo experience. But I really tried to be satisfied with the Comcast DVR because I didn't want to spend so much for the TiVo, so I gave it more than an honest chance before ditching it.

I gave mine an honest run too. I can say with absolute certainty that the Moto box is infinitely inferior to the DirecTV tivo units.

me three. I was using the direcTivo dvrs until upgrading to HD, and then I used the moto boxes, which were a big step down in terms of reliability and functionality. Now I do most of my watching through mythtv, but a Tivo inteface would be nice (if it has reliability too).

me three. I was using the direcTivo dvrs until upgrading to HD, and then I used the moto boxes, which were a big step down in terms of reliability and functionality. Now I do most of my watching through mythtv, but a Tivo inteface would be nice (if it has reliability too).I doubt anyone disagrees, but the question still seems to be how many are willing to pay ~$800 plus $12.95/mo for the Tivo interface. I don't know about Moto boxes, but I've had my 8300 for well over 2 years now, so I can't complain. Though I'd love more integrated features, the price is still too high and I'm not sure a stripped down version will be any solution. It's sure to attract users, but will there be enough? I won't make any changes until OCAP is fully in-play and I see what the market then brings to the table. Tivo is trying hard to capture an audience before all that happens and that is exactly what they should be doing. I beleive they plan to play in the OCAP market too, so things will really get interesting then. :)

By the way, Amazon Unbox rocks! Tivo and Amazon's partnership went fully live on Wednesday, and I've watched 4 movies through it already. Any Series 2 or Series 3 standalone Tivo with an ethernet port can download movies directly to the Tivo for viewing where it belongs...on the biggest screen in the house! Screw PPV, screw OnDemand....I demand shows and movies my way, direct to my Series 3. Oh, and archiving to DVD makes longer term viewing possible. I'd rather give Tivo and Amazon my money than give Comcast more than they already get.

Thanks Tivo! You have just beat AppleTV to the punch...XBox360 has had this ability for months, but it is a bit too restrictive for my liking.

I doubt anyone disagrees, but the question still seems to be how many are willing to pay ~$800 plus $12.95/mo for the Tivo interface. I don't know about Moto boxes, but I've had my 8300 for well over 2 years now, so I can't complain. Though I'd love more integrated features, the price is still too high and I'm not sure a stripped down version will be any solution. It's sure to attract users, but will there be enough? I won't make any changes until OCAP is fully in-play and I see what the market then brings to the table. Tivo is trying hard to capture an audience before all that happens and that is exactly what they should be doing. I beleive they plan to play in the OCAP market too, so things will really get interesting then. :)

I think the answer appears to be "not enough" which is probably the primary impetus for a lower cost version. It would be nice if some lower cost-better functioning units were on the horizon from somebody. HD DVRs are still quite the immature market...

What makes you believe Tivo will play in OCAP market? Anything you've heard, or intuition? I'm curious about their involvement.

What makes you believe Tivo will play in OCAP market? Anything you've heard, or intuition? I'm curious about their involvement.
The TiVo software for Comcast (that runs on the Motorola hardware) is OCAP-based.

The TiVo software for Comcast (that runs on the Motorola hardware) is OCAP-based.My understanding of all the press releases was that there would be a non-OCAP version for both Moto and SA boxes, then an OCAP version for both. At least one press release specifically said the impending Moto port at the time was not dependent on OCAP. I believe it was that same press release that said they'd offer OCAP versions eventually even though they were miffed at the cableco's about OCAP. Since many cableco's are moving along on OCAP, some of that may have changed, but I don't see how Tivo can NOT do OCAP and remain in the cable market, that is, stay in business. Even then, there should be some decent competition for a change that will change the cable landscape for the better.

OCAP is just another software layer that is made available for equipment and other software to work together.

The TiVo DVR & Guide Software does require the OCAP layer to be installed for it to function.

Last year 6 Headends had OCAP installed and running, so far last I heard Comcast now has 15 with another 12 by end of March. TiVo Software rollout is due to start by end of April. Employees will get it first, then it will be made available to the public.

Thanks for the update.

The TiVo DVR & Guide Software does require the OCAP layer to be installed for it to function.Is it a full OCAP stack or is it the TV Nav OnRamp stuff?

My impression was that Tivo's app is written on top of the TV Navigator middleware platform from TV Works.

Note for others: TV Nav isn't quite OCAP ... but it's pretty close. It's on 'OnRamp to OCAP' solution. In a nutshell, TV Nav is a subset of OCAP. This allows it to be ported to legacy (already deployed) platforms that may not be able to efficiently run a full OCAP stack. It also allows cable companies / vendors to start producing applications while the full OCAP specs are still being tweaked / changed / finalized. Apps writtin on top of the TV Nav middleware should be (mostly) easily portable to OCAP as well since they are so similar.

TV Nav is available for the Moto boxes. Last I heard, TV Works was close to having their SciAtl port out.

TV Works is jointly owned by Comcast and Cox.

Comcast and Cox have a suite of other iTV applications running on the TV Nav middleware. On-Screen Caller ID, Interactive weather and traffic apps, that kindof stuff.

The TV Works people are very invloved in the OCAP specs too so ... TV Nav and OCAP keep getting closer and closer and more and more similar. Maybe they're 100% compatible by now ... dunno.

dt_dc,

I'm sure glad someone seems to understand all this stuff. :)

I have known and loved Tivo under d*tv, but I have suffered so long with the moto box comtast that if they ever just get it to work reliably, (16.35 hopefully?) that I will have forgotten what was worth paying for with Tivo.

Probably as a result of following this site for so many months, I am starting to give up on the possibility of seeing the Tivo option before the end of 2007.

anyone know when tivo will be ready to roll? I have a 3416 what's the dif between the 3616 and 6416??

anyone know when tivo will be ready to roll? I have a 3416 what's the dif between the 3616 and 6416??

Look 5 posts above yours...that's the latest news (it's scanpa's if you need a hint)

Last year 6 Headends had OCAP installed and running, so far last I heard Comcast now has 15 with another 12 by end of March. Just so folks can put your comment in context.... that' will be 27 out of hundreds right? or is it thousands?